House of Commons
Tuesday, December 10, 1940
(Mr. Speaker in the Chair.)
New Writ
For the Borough of Birmingham (Edgbaston Division) in the room of the Right Honourable Arthur Neville Chamberlain, deceased.— ( Captain Margesson .)
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Coal Distribution
asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that collieries in Nottinghamshire are finding great difficulty in getting away their coil; and what steps he proposes to take to eliminate the congestion of coal in this coalfield?
I am aware of the position which has arisen in. this coalfield by reason of transport difficulties, and I am constantly in touch with my right hon. and gallant Friend the Minister of Transport in the matter.
Will the Minister give a little more detail of what he is doing in Nottinghamshire to relieve the congestion, which is a serious matter?
The congestion in Nottinghamshire is not entirely divorced from the congestion elsewhere. The aim of the committee which I represent is to expedite the movement of coal traffic from the point of production to the point of consumption. This cannot but be beneficial to the movement of traffic in other parts, and means a speeding-up of transport.
asked the Secretary for Mines whether, in cases where there is congestion of coal-laden wagons in railway goods' yards due to individual retailers failing to clear the coal with sufficient rapidity, the local coal controllers will be instructed to take possession of all coal arrivals and arrange for them to be fairly distributed amongst the waiting retailers?
It is intended under the House Coal Distribution (Emergency) Scheme that any cases of congestion at merchants' depots should be dealt with by co-operation between the various retailers at the depots and the Diversion Committee which meets at my Department can render any further assistance that may be required. I would prefer that the difficulties to which the hon. Member refers should be dealt with in this way, but if it proves necessary, in particular cases, for other measures to be adopted, I will bear the hon. Member's suggestion in mind.
Is the Minister aware that in some cases retailers are not emptying their wagons very quickly and, consequently, that a lot of wagons are laden with coal and other retailers are kept waiting?
Yes, Sir, I am aware of it, but it must be understood that the retailer in his depot is as much impeded in his work by the black-out and by other conditions as is everybody else. I do not expect in those circumstances a very high standard to be attained, but we are doing all we can to expedite the movement.
Dominion Exports to Japan
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what major exports, useful for the purpose of war, are being exported by the Dominions to Japan at the present time?
I am not at present in a position to make any detailed statement on this matter. The policy of His Majesty's Governments in the Dominions, in relation to the export to foreign countries of commodities useful for war purposes, is generally similar to our own. In this connection I would refer to the reply given to the hon. Member on 19th November by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Economic Warfare.
Limitation of Supplies Order
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Limitation of Supplies Order is related to the diversion of lahour from non-essential industries to war industries; and whether he can say how many workers rendered unemployed by the enforced reduction in civilian production have been absorbed in essential industries?
Yes, Sir, there is close collaboration between my Department and the Ministry of Labour to secure the purpose mentioned by the hon. Member. Special machinery has been set up to arrange for the transfer of plant and labour to war industries, and to direct Government orders into areas where such transfer presents the most difficulty. I may say that a survey of the industries affected by the Order is made at frequent intervals. From the last survey I am satisfied that, in the period ending 1st October at least two-thirds of the labour released had already been absorbed in essential work.
If, as the right hon. Gentleman says. there is close collaboration between himself and the Minister of Labour, why does it happen, when he throws people out of work as a result of this order, that the Minister of Labour declares that it is not his business to put them in? That is precisely what the Minister of Labour said; it was not his duty to find work for people thrown out under this order.
It is the duty of the production Minister to fix the labour released into production, and it is the duty of the Board of Trade to see that the labour released is essential.
Before the right hon. Gentleman proceeds with this device, quite a proper one, with which I agree in principle, will he see that other Departments are ready to absorb the free labour?
Yes, Sir. There is very elaborate machinery set up to secure that result. One of the methods is to direct Government orders into areas where the labour can be absorbed immediately.
What is the sense of throwing one-third of these people out of work" and of depriving the nation of their production?
There must be some time-lag in the complete absorption of labour, and two-thirds within a four-month period is not an unsatisfactory result.
In the last war we did not find it necessary to do it at all.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that black is the only material made for black-out purposes, which is outside the quota; and whether, in view of the public demand for other shades, he will consider amending the Order so as to put blues, greens and browns on the same footing as black so long as they pass the Shirley Institute test for obscuration of light, and are stamped as having passed that test?
The present concession ensures supplies of material required for blackout purposes. An extension of the kind suggested would put at the public's disposal material suitable for many other purposes, which should be met from the home trade quota.
While appreciating the possibility of what can happen, may I remind the right hon. Gentleman that the average housewife in this country does not want her rooms draped in black? Is he aware that this order, as worded, puts restrictions upon certain Yorkshire manufacturers which they think are not quite fair; and will he look into the matter.
I will look into the matter, but I am afraid that the concession which the hon. Gentleman wants would lead to a large waste of material.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider amending the Limitation of Supplies Order so as to permit of articles being sold for replacements as a result of air raids, without regard to the 50 per cent, quota in operation in the 'home market?
Where goods are destroyed by air raids, licences are immediately issued to allow retailers to replace their stocks outside the quota limitation. Retail shops are not, of course, required to restrict sales to consumers. Officers of the Board of Tirade have visited certain towns and dealt with these matters on the spot.
Danish Merchant Ships, Neutral Ports
asked the Minister of Shipping whether, in consultation with the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, he will seek to make arrangements by which the Danish merchant fleets in neutral ports, 34 of such ships being at present in United States of America ports, could be used to assist this country in its war effort?
Many Danish vessels are already in our service, and means whereby those which remain immobilised in neutral ports could be brought into employment have been, and are, the subject of consultation between my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and myself.
Are the Danish Council in London being consulted about this matter?
I could not say that without notice. I think we have explored every possibility from the time when these ships were first held up.
Economic Warfare
Spanish and Portuguese Agreement
asked the Minister of Economic Warfare whether the new Spanish and Portuguese agreements limit the accumulation of stocks of vital commodities to at most three months' demand, at a rate appropriate to the present low level of industrial activity in these countries and not to the higher pre-civil war rate?
There are no new agreements with Spain or Portugal affecting the rate of importation or the accumulation of stocks. In the case of Spain, agreements regarding petroleum and cotton have been in force for some months; these agreements regulate imparts at a rate appropriate to the present level of consumption. No other commodities imported into Spain, and no commodities imported into Portugal, are at present covered by agreements, but their importation is carefully regulated by means of the navicert system. This system is so applied as to limit imports to the actual requirements of the two countries for domestic consumption and to prevent the accumulation of excessive stocks.
German Oil Supplies and Raw Material,
asked the Minister of Economic Warfare whether his recent forecast of the economic difficulties facing Germany in respect of oil supplies and raw material was based on an examination of the actual position, or on information supplied by neutral sources; and whether this forecast represents the considered opinion of the Government?
My recent observations, to which my hon. Friend refers, were based on a careful study of all the available evidence on a subject which falls within the sphere of my departmental responsibility.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that he has possibly been a little over-optimistic and that it is rather dangerous to excite undue hopes?
I endeavour to tell the truth, whether it uplifts or depresses.
I am sure that my right hon. Friend will bear in mind that he has, on previous occasions, made optimistic statements which have not been justified by the events?
I have never been proved wrong yet.
Has the Minister's attention been drawn to the fact that Rumania is to supply 3,000,000 tons of oil to Germany; and can he put a stop to it?
It partly depends upon the Navy continuing to hold the Eastern Mediterranean. In that event, they will not be able to get the oil round.
British Army
Women Doctors (Rates of Pay)
asked the Secretary of State for War the reasons for different rates of pay as between civilian male doctors and civilian women doctors, both engaged on examining recruits for the Service under his control; and whether he with take steps to rectify this anomaly?
There should be no differentiation between men and women doctors. If the hon. Lady will bring any case to my notice, I will investigate it.
I thank my right hon. Friend. Cases are repeatedly being put up, but I understand that the Treasury, as usual, will not accept responsibility.
Dependants' Allowances
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will sanction an increased allowance from 15s. 6d. to 22s. 6d. per week to the childless wife of a man posted as missing, if she is an expectant mother and is, for that reason, certified to be unfit for work, as has been granted in the case of pension to the widow of a man who has been killed while in the Service?
Yes, Sir, this is in fact now the practice. For the first 17 weeks after a man is reported missing, his wife continues to receive family allowance and the qualifying allotment of pay, a total of 25s. to the childless wife. After 17 weeks, she receives an allowance equal to the pension payable if the soldier were dead, and this is the higher rate of 22s. 6d. in the circumstances mentioned by the hon. Lady, where the facts are established and are made known to the War Office.
Will my right hon. Friend convey this information to the people concerned, and will he also see that due publicity is given to this new provision, so that these women may know that they are entitled to the higner pension?
I hope the hon. Lady's Question will help in that direction.
Does this also apply in the case of dependants whose sons are missing?
Commercial Education (Travelling Costs)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has now decided to allow the cost of transport to the 520 members of His Majesty's Forces desirous of taking classes in "technology and advanced commercial subjects provided free by Newcastle-upon-Tyne Education Committee, so that the post-war civilian prospects of these units may not be impaired?
The arrangements to be made are not yet finally settled. If my hon. Friend will repeat his Question next week, I hope to be able to inform him then what has been decided.
Soldier's Death (Towyn)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has now decided to been made into the circumstances of the death of Signalman Peter Gunstone at Towyn Isolation Hospital on 26th October, and whether such inquiries have revealed neglect or lack of proper medical attention?
I have received a full report on this case, and it reveals no neglect or lack of proper medical attention. I should like to take this opportunity of expressing sympathy with the soldier's father and mother.
Has my right hon. Friend any evidence from the matron or doctors at this hospital, and is he aware that the parents of this man feel very strongly that his death was caused primarily by gross medical neglect at the camp where he was stationed?
I have received a letter and also a report. I should be glad to show the report to my hon. Friend.
Surplus Rations
asked the Secretary of State for War what steps are taken in military units to utilise excess rations and to prevent their waste?
Commanding officers are instructed that, where rations drawn prove to be surplus to requirements, the excess is to be balanced by a subsequent underdrawal in order to avoid waste. As my hon. Friend will realise, the elimination of waste is mainly a problem of cookery. In order to improve the standard of cooking and catering full-time messing officers are at the moment being appointed for every static unit where the establishment exceeds 1,000. These officers are expert caterers specially selected from the trade and have many years practical kitchen and catering experience. In order to train messing officers, increased facilities have been provided at existing schools of cookery, and a number of messing officers training centres are about to be opened. Since the outbreak of war, 16,626 soldier cooks and 854 Auxiliary Territorial Service cooks have been trained. There are under training at the present time 4,884 soldier cooks and 236 Auxiliary Territorial Service cooks. The weekly output of trained cooks from instructional establishments averages about 700.
Is my right hon. Friend quite satisfied that where troops are sick or on short leave there is, throughout units, a regular routine whereby the excess rations are in fact not wasted?
I hope I am never quite satisfied, but I think the position is improving.
Auxiliary Territorial Service (Rations)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is satisfied that no reduction can be made in the rations for women in the Army and auxiliary units?
I am satisfied that the revised scale recently introduced for the Auxiliary Territorial Service is not susceptible of any reduction.
Is it not a fact that these women receive considerably larger rations than women in industry, and, particularly n consideration of the fact that many of the women in the Army are doing only sedentary work, does not my right hon. Friend feel that a review of this subject is due?
As my hon. Friend will realise, we have, only lately reviewed it and changed the rations to a considerable extent. That is why I do not want to change them again.
Complaints (Representations to Members Op Parliament)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider whether the provisions of King's Regulations which prohibit serving soldiers from taking complaints on Service matters to Members of Parliament are still essential to the welfare and discipline of the Army in the present war?
I am most anxious that soldiers' grievances should be fairly and expeditiously considered, since it is of great importance to tile discipline and contentment of the Army. Long delay is, however, generally inevitable if soldiers fail to observe the procedure laid down in King's Regulations, paragraph 530, for obtaining redress of their grievances. Members of Parliament who receive complaints from soldiers can only write to my Department, which registers and acknowledges the letter, and forwards the complaint for investigation. The letter then goes down through the chain of command to the unit concerned, and returns after investigation through the same channels. All this delay and extra work is saved, with real advantage to the soldier himself, by his making his complaint to his commanding officer. It will also be realised that a commanding officer is placed in an unsatisfactory position if the first intimation of a complaint from one of his men comes from higher authority. The procedure for the redress of complaints is, therefore, stated in King's Regulations, paragraph 530, and in Sections 42 and 43 of the Army Act, which is annually approved by Parliament.
I am anxious that King's Regulations, paragraph 530, and the appropriate Sections of the Army Act should be generally known and respected, because it is of vital importance in war that soldiers should have confidence in their commanders, and also that there should be no sense of unfairness between one soldier and another. Soldiers learn to trust their commanders if complaints are promptly and sympathetically considered; but it must be clear to them that all complaints are treated impartially, and that no soldier can obtain preferential treatment over another because he has political or social influence. The attention of all commanders is, therefore, drawn to the fundamental importance of their responsibilities under Section 43. On the political side, Members of Parliament can do much for the welfare of the Army by encouraging action in accordance with Section 43 of the Army Act, which they themselves have approved, when complaints are addressed to them. I would add that I should be grateful for information regarding any case in which the Section has not been scrupulously observed by the officers responsible for hearing complaints, and will have it investigated.
Is it clear that if a soldier is still dissatisfied after having pursued the matter through the usual and proper channels, it is still open to him to approach his Member of Parliament without being in any way victimised?
Will my right hon. Friend be good enough to bear in mind that the task of a commanding officer would be utterly impossible if every time he was called upon to make an unpopular decision that decision became a matter for correspondence between the soldier, his Member of Parliament, and my right hon. Friend, and that would have a detrimental effect upon discipline?
Can I now have an answer to my Question?
I have given a very carefully considered reply on this vexed subject, and I would be glad if my hon. Friend would study the reply I have given.
Would there be any difficulty in setting up a complaints committee in each battalion, so that the men could consider their grievances before making complaints? There would then be only one complaint to send to the commanding officer on any particular matter.
Home Guard
asked the Secretary of State for War whether members of the Home Guard can be given free travel by train, tramcar or omnibus on production of passes indicating that they are travelling for a specific duty?
Members of the Home Guard travelling on duty for distances over two miles are given free travel by train, tramcar or omnibus. Normally, warrants for the journey are issued, but, in the case of those omnibus companies which do not accept warrants, payment is made by the man himself, and he is reimbursed from public funds.
Corfu (Defences)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can give the House any information about the defences of Corfu and of the nature of the Italian attacks?
It would not be in the interest of our Allies to disclose information on the defences of Corfu. The Italian attack has been aerial and naval.
Case for Inquiry
asked the Secretary of State for War why T/77718 Driver William Belshaw, Royal Army Service Corps, was discharged from the Army minus a leg, the four fingers of his right hand and two fingers of the left hand, whilst still an in-patient of Queen Mary's Hospital, Roehampton, and in no fit state to return to civil life; and on what date were the necessary papers in connection with boarding and discharge sent by his Department to the Ministry of Pensions?
My inquiries into this case are not yet completed. I will write to my hon. and gallant Friend as soon as I have the necessary information.
Does not my right hon. Friend realise that it is the principle behind this Question which needs investigation? I wrote to him some six weeks ago on this matter and received a very unsatisfactory reply.
I realise that, and that is why I wanted to complete my inquiries before giving an answer.
Questions
British Prisoners of War
15. and 31.
asked the Secretary of State for War (1) whether he is aware that British prisoners of war in Oflag VII C are sleeping some of them 27 in a room 16 to 17 feet square; that they have only stools to sit on and their lavatories are without doors; and if he will warn the German Government that unless conditions are improved their prisoners in England will be treated in a similar manner;
(2) whether he is aware that letters received from Oflag VII, dated 13th and 22nd October, state that some prisoners had received no food parcels; that no clothing had been received, and that our men were still in the clothes they wore when captured; that they are allowed only one shower bath per week, and have no facilities for washing or drying clothes; that the food provided consists of coffee for breakfast, soup and potatoes for dinner and supper, and a loaf of bread per man every five days; and will he convey to the German Government, through the Protecting Power, the scale of food and clothing supplied by His Majesty's Government to German prisoners of war in Britain, and ask for appropriate reciprocity?
There has been considerable overcrowding at Oflag VII C/H, and lavatory accommodation was primitive. Representations on these matters were made to the German Government, with the result that a number of officers from this camp have recently been transferred to a new camp, Oflag VII C/Z. A visit to these camps by a representative of the Protecting Power is to take place this week, and I hope to have his report at an early date.
As regards food and clothing, my hon. and gallant Friend has been informed in answer to a previous Question on this subject that, between 13th and 19th October, 1,838 parcels of food, clothes and books were received in this camp. The statement that prisoners received no food parcels is understandable, because all such parcels are addressed to the senior officer, and are probably distributed by him in the form of additional rations. The chairman of the British Red Cross Society has, in fact, received a letter from the senior officer, dated 23rd September, gratefully acknowledging the receipt of food parcels and saying that at that date 1,700 had arrived. Thus we have positive information that more than 3,500 parcels had been received in Oflag VII C/H by 19th October. I have no doubt that this figure is a minimum rather than a maximum, and that many further parcels have teen received. Representations to the German Government regarding their obligations in the matter of food and clothing have been made on several occasions.
Did my right hon. Friend say 3,500 only, or did I make a mistake in the figure?
That was at one camp.
But that is absurd; it is a very small figure.
Are there not about 16,000 prisoners in this camp?
These amounts cover two short periods in respect of which we have information, and not the whole period.
Does my right hon. Friend realise that in all the letters which come to hand we are told that when a parcel does arrive it has to be shared by about 10 people, and that each man gets a mere fraction of the parcel?
All parcels are distributed by the senior officer of the camp.
Does my right hon. Friend realise that letters dated as late as 22nd October state that many of the men are now living in the clothes in which they were captured? Many of them were captured fighting in their shirt sleeves, in June. Have any clothes been sent, and is it possible to send a list of the clothing we give to our prisoners in this country and ask the Germans to do the same?
There is a Question on the Paper about clothes and I propose to give full information to the House about the position.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that circumstances in this camp are even worse than is indicated in the Question? I have received a letter from an officer; is my right hon. Friend aware that prisoners have to take coupons for their pay, that they only get four marks to the pound, and that there is very little to buy with the money?
If my hon. Friend has a letter, I should be grateful if he would let me see it.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, since hundreds of tons of clothing and food parcels lie at Lisbon, and at various points between, Lisbon and the German frontier, and as prisoners in Germany are lucky if they receive one parcel of clothing out of three sent by their relatives at a cost of anything up to £8 each, he will consider the possibility of organising a service of lorries from Lisbon to the German frontier?
Endeavours were made by the International Red Cross Committee to establish a service of lorries from Lisbon to the German frontier, but I regret to say that this proved to be impracticable.
Is some alternative method under consideration?
Yes, Sir. We have been considering that for some time.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that Mrs. Campbell's Committee in Lisbon has already arranged for a lorry to go through?
Yes, I know about Mrs. Campbell's Committee and gratefully appreciate it, but that is a very different matter from the very large supplies that have to go through.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that at Oflag VII Camp and probably at other camps, the Germans insist on the prisoners opening and emptying all tins sent in food parcels, and as there are practically no containers in the camp the contents of such tins, condensed milk, jam, etc., have to be emptied out on a plate or even on the table and consequently have to be consumed at once; and whether representations on the matter will be made forthwith, the prisoners undertaking to hand over the tins to the German authorities in due course when empty?
I have no information to the effect suggested in the Question, and inquiries are being made through the protecting Power.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that only this morning, since I put down the Question, I have had a letter from the wife of a prisoner of war at Oflag VII camp asking that any food such as Horlicks should be sent in tablet form, since the German authorities keep the containers, and he and other prisoners naturally do not like mixtures? I think it is a horrible and disgusting practice that the tins and other containers should be taken away.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will furnish as full particulars as possible, of the British women prisoners of war held by Germany?
Three British women were captured on 22nd June while serving with a British women's mobile canteen unit with the French Army. They were sent to Stalag V.C., where they were visited on 28th September by the United States Consul at Stuttgart. They were found to be well housed and treated, and the Consul arranged to provide them, with money. They had recently received parcels of foodstuffs. All available information has been sent to the next-of-kin.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that large numbers of Post Offices throughout the country have no leaflets giving information regarding the sending of parcels, letters, etc., to prisoners of war; and will he see that supplies of these leaflets are despatched to all Post Offices as soon as possible?
The leaflet to which my hon. Friend refers was issued to every Post Office for the purpose of answering inquiries, and copies, of which 200,000 were printed, were obtainable at the larger Post Offices. It was subsequently decided to extend the supply for distribution to all Post Offices except the smaller town sub-offices. Some alterations and additions to the instructions have had to be made, and it has therefore been necessary to reprint the leaflet.
Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that in a large provincial town, the name of which I have given him privately, there were no leaflets at all and that the authorities appeared to know nothing about it? Considering that Members' constituents are suffering great anxiety because they do not know how to communicate with, or send parcels to, prisoners of war, is it not regrettable that such leaflets as these get out of print?
My hon. Friend was good enough to give me notice of the particular town concerned. I made inquiries and found that all the leaflets except two were distributed and that these two leaflets were kept in the office for reference purposes.
Will the Post Office officials be told where these leaflets are, so that people inquiring will not be disappointed?
Yes, Sir.
( for Mr. Dobbie)asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can give the House any further information as to the treatment of prisoners of war in Germany; whether there is any distinction between the treatment of officers and men; whether there is any contact between such prisoners and the War Office other than the Red Cross Society; and whether he will consider the possibility of arranging, through the Red Cross Society or such other organisation as could be devised, for a delegation of Members of Parliament from this country to visit the prison camps in Germany?
My hon. Friend will be aware from answers I have given in the House that there has been cause for complaint in regard to both food and clothing, and a number of steps have been taken to meet this situation. Officers are housed in separate camps and treated with due regard to their rank and status. Our intermediaries are the Protecting Powers, that is to say, the United States of America, and the International Red Cross Committee, as provided in the Geneva Convention. I fear that my hon. Friend's suggestion in the last part of the Question is impracticable.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any assurance that all the parcels sent by various people in this country do land in Germany and go to prisoners of war?
The hon. Member will appreciate that I cannot give a general assurance of that kind. All I can say is that, from the evidence we have, the parcels that reach Germany appear to be delivered to the camps.
Greece (Italian Prisoners of War)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consult with the Commander-in-Chief of the Greek Army with a view to removing the recently captured Italian prisoners of war to a British Dominion?
No, Sir. I see no reason for approaching the Greek Government with this suggestion.
In view of the obvious desirability of removing these Italian prisoners from the scene of the Balkan conflict, would he reconsider that matter and possibly consult with the Commander-in-Chief?
No, Sir. I do not think so. If the Greek Government have any views on the matter, they will tell us.
Food Supplies
Chip Potatoes
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether it is intended that chip potato friers should increase the price and reduce the portion sold?
No, Sir, that is not the intention. My Noble Friend has been assured by the National Federation of Fish Friers, representing a very large proportion of the fish friers of the country, that their members have been urged to pass on the whole benefit of the subsidy to consumers.
Milk
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he can give any information in connection with the supply of milk from Ulster for this country?
The Scottish Milk Marketing Board have, made arrangements to purchase from Northern Ireland liquid milk to meet the present shortage in Scotland. The average quantity obtained is 6,500 gallons per day.
Questions
Binoculars
asked the Minister of Supply whether he intends using compulsory powers to obtain all the binoculars that he wants; and whether he has any estimate of the number of binoculars in private hands?
A new appeal to the public for binoculars has recently been launched, and is making good progress. Ministry of Supply depots, at which the glasses are accepted for purchase or as gifts, have been set up in various parts of the country. Returns for the first week show that already more than 10,000 pairs of glasses have been handed in, and of this number roughly 50 per cent, have been presented as gifts. When the appeal was made it was estimated that 125,000 pairs of glasses suitable for use by the Services remained in the hands of the public. The question of using compulsory powers will be considered should the voluntary method fail to produce an adequate number of glasses.
Is the Minister taking steps to purchase, or take over, the stocks held by retailers? If not, is it not unfair to ask the public to surrender their binoculars when the Government take no action to acquire the stocks of retailers?
That is done in the case of suitable stocks; but some stocks, of course, are not suitable for our purposes.
Have the Government taken any action with regard to stocks held by retailers?
Where stocks are suitable, they will be purchased.
Where stocks are suitable for purchase, what action will be taken?
I should like notice of the question as regards the procedure.
Never mind the procedure: what is the effect of the action taken?
Is my hon. Friend aware that certain organisations are acting as intermediaries in this matter, and are making profits out of it? Is he willing to take steps to prevent that?
Is it not the case that even where suitable binoculars are in the hands of the retailers, my hon. Friend has no knowledge of any action that has ever been taken to acquire them for the public service?
I must have notice of that Question.
Local Authorthes (Departmental Circulars)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many circulars his Department has issued to local authorities since 3rd September, 1939?
Six hundred and thirty-seven circulars have been issued to local authorities by the Home Office and Ministry of Home Security since 3rd September, 1939, and up to and including 4th December, 1940.
Does that include the circulars issued by the Regional Commissioners?
No, Sir.
asked the Minister of Health how many circulars his Department has issued to local authorities since 3rd September, 1939?
Three hundred and ninety-two circulars have been issued by my Department since 3m September, 1939.
Are all those circulars permissive, or are some obligatory?
The 392 circulars were sent out to local authorities and other bodies dealing with the various work over which the Ministry has control, both for peace-time and for war-time schemes.
Will the hon. Lady represent to the Minister of Health that government by circular is not getting the speediest results in dealing with the conditions in the bombed areas?
I think my right hon. Friend is well aware of that, and it is for that reason that my right hon. Friend, myself and many officials have gone round different districts throughout the whole country since the beginning of the war, and regional officers from the various regional headquarters are continually going from district to district to deal with the difficulties that arise.
In view of the fact that the answer indicates that nearly one circular per day has been sent to local authorities, would it not be better if there were fewer circulars sent and more action taken?
If the hon. Member will study the different departments of local authorities' work which have to be dealt with through the Ministry of Health, both by peacetime and war-time regulations, I think he will see that the number of circulars is not so excessive as may have appeared to him at first sight. If he will consider sewage, water, building, first-aid repairs, evacuation, and many other schemes, I think he will begin to realise the number of different efforts that have to be made to keep both war-time and peace-time work up to date.
Will my hon. Friend inform us how many of the circulars are obligatory?
I am afraid I cannot answer that question without notice.
Civil Defence
Hessian Canvas
asked the Home Secretary the result of his inquiries into the use of Hessian canvas as a substitute for glass?
Our inquiries are not yet complete; I will communicate with the hon. Member later.
Does the hon. Lady recognise that in this particular hospital 90Q of the patients and staff escaped injury, although the boardroom was smashed to smithereens?
We are aware of that, and are very interested.
Detentions
asked the Home Secretary whether, and on what date, prison governors were informed that the rule forbidding non-enemy aliens detained in prison to write to Members of Parliament or British persons of High standing had been withdrawn; whether the governors had been instructed to make the withdrawal of the prohibition known to the detainees; whether the withdrawal of the prohibition now applies to all non-convicted alien- in prison, including those detained under various sections of the Aliens Order, under Defence Regulations, or under the Royal Prerogative?
There has never been a rule prohibiting persons detained in prison from writing to Members of Parliament, as such. Un the other hand, the rules relating to the sending of letters from prison were designed solely for the purpose of enabling persons detained to keep in touch with their friends, relatives and legal advisers, and correspondence addressed to other persons was accordingly disallowed. Every person detained has of course a right, of which he is informed, of addressing a petition to the Home Secretary. The rules relating to correspondence have recently been relaxed by my right hon. Friend, and it is now open to all persons detained in prison by administrative order to communicate with Members of Parliament, irrespective of the question whether or not they are personally acquainted with them. As regards persons detained under Defence Regulation 18B, the relaxation came into force on 23rd October. On 20th November it was decided to apply the same relaxation .to aliens detained under the Aliens Order, but I regret that, owing to the difficulties caused by the transfer of the Department to other premises in the country, the decision was not communicated to prison governors until 4th December. It is open to any persons detained to obtain guidance from the prison authorities, but I do not think it would be desirable, or, indeed, welcome, to hon. Members, that persons detained should be invited or encouraged to correspond with them. As regards the hon. Member's suggestion that there should be a further relaxation, allowing correspondence with persons of high standing, I know of no suitable criterion which could be applied.
If there is no suitable criterion for "persons of high standing," why is the instruction so worded?
That instruction, so far as these people are concerned, has now been withdrawn
asked the Home Secretary whether the regulation diet provided for convicted prisoners, remand prisoners and non-enemy aliens detained in prisons, is the same as that provided for aliens of enemy origin or stateless in internment camps; and whether he will cause the former dietary scale or, if different, both scales to be provided in the Official Report, or indicate the title of the publication where the information can be found and cause it to be placed in the Library for the information of Members?
I will place in the Library the information for which my hon. Friend asks.
asked the Home Secretary whether it is his intention to remove non-enemy aliens detained in prison to an internment camp or camps; and, if so, to what camps, and how soon will these detainees be so removed?
Yes, Sir. Arrangements are being made to transfer male aliens of non-enemy nationality to Lingfield Camp, and it is expected that their removal will be completed before Christmas.
In view of the unsatisfactory conditions at Holloway, cannot women detainees also be transferred to camps?
I honestly do not think that camp conditions are very suitable for women during the winter, but I will certainly consider the suggestion.
Is the hon. Member satisfied that the security and living conditions of Lingfield Camp make it suitable for internment during the winter?
We are making certain improvements at the present time, and that is why we cannot make this transfer straight away.
Questions
Royal Air Force (Coastal Command)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will give an assurance that there is no intention that the control of the Royal Air Force Coastal Command shall pass from the Air Ministry to any other Department?
asked the Prime Minister whether he will give an assurance that no changes in the control of the Royal Air force Coastal Command will take place before this House has had an opportunity of discussing this matter?
I see no reason to give any specific assurances which would tend to impair the responsibility of His Majesty's Government to Parliament for the proper conduct of the war. It is my duty as Minister of Defence to review such questions from time to time in the light of current experience. I have come to the conclusion that while there is no need at the present time to change the position of the Coastal Command as part of the Royal Air Force, it is necessary that the Coastal Command should play a more important part than it has hitherto done in trade protection, and that for this purpose substantial increases, some of which have been already effected, will be necessary. Moreover, as the function of the Coastal Command squadrons is that of co-operation with the Royal Navy, the operational policy of the Command must be determined by the Admiralty, of course in consultation with the Air Officer Commanding in Chief. Excellent relations have been established since the war between the two Services, and the closest contact exists between the Naval and Air authorities. I am satisfied that the integrity of operational direction will be fully achieved.
Does not my right hon. Friend agree that, in view of the magnitude of the task falling upon the Royal Air Force and the epic success which it is bringing to that task, it is very undesirable that there should be continual suggestions for the dismemberment of that Force; and is he also aware that the decision which he has just announced will give great satisfaction?
In view of the excellent relations now existing between the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force, will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that he will take all necessary steps to make an immediate end to the newspaper intrigues in this connection, and particularly those of the newspapers controlled by Lord Beaverbrook?
There has been a great deal of controversy upon this matter, and whenever it comes into consideration and review, it seems to me that a certain amount of discussion appears on both sides and not only on one side. I cannot exercise any control over the Press other than that which is well known to the House in the existing war conditions.
If the right hon. Gentleman, as he says, can exercise no control over the Press, can he exercise any control over his colleagues in the Cabinet?
Yes, Sir, I think I can.
Will my right hon. Friend continue to pursue a policy of unity of command and unity of purpose in regard to this extremely difficult question of the Western approaches?
Yes, Sir, that is extremely important, and the last thing we want is an inter-Services controversy.
War Aims
asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered the resolution of the Methil branch of the National Union of Railway men, calling for a clear and specific publication by His Majesty's Government of its war aims, a copy of which has been sent to him; and whether His Majesty's Government is prepared, in view of the growing public demand for such a declaration, now to accede to the request?
I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal made in the course of the Debate on Thursday last, to which I have nothing to add.
Is the Prime Minister aware that the Imperial policy group with which the Secretary of State for India is associated is proposing a new order in Europe which will be dominated by the sterling and the dollar, and that statements of this kind are causing a lot of comment and confusion as far as the war aims of the Government are concerned?
There are such a lot of new orders in Europe that I really have to confine myself more directly to immediate business.
Propaganda
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of setting up a general staff of propaganda under a Minister responsible to the Cabinet, commanding all the instruments of publicity, and with full powers to act swiftly in accordance with a carefully thought-out plan?
This and other suggestions will be borne in mind in the course of any changes that may be made.
In view of the great importance of this matter, will the Prime Minister be good enough to arrange facilities for a discussion on the subject, if sufficient evidence is produced through the usual channels?
I think the inevitable answer to that Supplementary Question would be, "Yes."
National Finance
Gold Standard
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will give an assurance that no undertaking, specific or implied, has been or wall at any time be given to the United States of America that this country will return to the gold standard after the war without first consulting this House?
There has never been any question of giving any undertaking of the kind suggested.
Purchase Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the Purchase Tax is bring imposed in the case of equipment required for mobile canteens; and whether he will make arrangements for these to be duty free?
Yes, Sir, but, as I have previously explained, I cannot accept the principle of establishing a privileged class of buyers, and I am advised that it would be impracticable to distinguish this equipment from similar goods used for other purposes.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is an increase in the cost of a large mobile canteen of £59 and of a small one of £44 and is it really fair, seeing that food is provided free from these canteens, that the Purchase Tax should be imposed in. such circumstances?
I regret, as I stated in my answer, that it is really impossible to distinguish this equipment from similar things used for other purposes.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman make arrangements with the Canteen Board or the W.V.S. to dispense with this supplementary payment?
No, Sir, I am afraid that the same objection still remains.
Surely the right hon. Gentleman is aware that, if the W.V.S. provide these canteens there can be no doubt they will Be used for only one specific purpose.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that wherever shop premises have been damaged by enemy action during the past six weeks retail traders, doing their best to reopen quickly, have to replace their lost stock with goods on which Purchase Tax is payable so that they are put out of competition on price with other retailers who are able to continue to dispose of their normal stocks acquired before the tax took effect; and will he give special consideration to this hardship in accordance with the Government policy of spreading the material loss suffered by a few over the whole population equitably?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on. 5th December to my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Liddall).
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will consider exempting pottery and other household goods from the Purchase Tax when such articles are required for replacements as the result of air-raids?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend to a similar Question by the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Woods) on 5th November.
Civil Servants (Billeting Allowances)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will now consider an additional sum being paid for billeting in respect of civil servants who have been evacuated to rural areas, in view of the increased cost of living which has taken place since the original date of their evacuation?
I regret that I am not prepared to consider a revision of the existing rates.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that in my Division of Evesham there are many cases of hardship where people of modest means have to take in civil servants and as a result are out of pocket? Perhaps he will come down to Evesham with me and talk the matter over.
; I shall be very glad to have a conversation with my hon. Friend afterwards.
Agricultural Credits (Banks)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will call a conference with the banks in connection with the sum of £50,000,000 outstanding from agricultural borrowers to the clearing banks to consider converting this into agricultural deposit receipts on a similar basis to Treasury deposit receipts and then funding them on a four-year basis with interest at 1 per cent, for the purpose of assisting in securing the maximum output from the farmers?
The conditions under which the banks lend to agricultural borrowers are so different from those under which they lend to the State on Treasury deposit receipts that I am afraid I could not adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Government have urged that more and more food should be grown throughout the country, that the clearing banks should make some contribution, and that contribution involves sacrifice? Why is it that food supplies should be allowed to be handicapped through no initiative being taken to compel the banks to assist agriculture?
I cannot accept the view expressed by my hon. Friend.
Nevertheless, it is true.
Income Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether deductions from wages made for the purpose of the payments of instalments of Income Tax may be deducted by employers in respect of means not earned in his employment; and whether local inspectors of taxes are empowered to authorise such deductions to be made?
An employer can only be required to deduct Income Tax which relates to remuneration assessed under Schedule E, but such remuneration may include sums paid to the employé by a previous employer; local inspectors of taxes are not empowered to authorize deductions in respect of other income.
Do I understand from that answer that the local inspector of taxes can authorise deductions in respect of other means, earned or unearned, simultaneously with the man's earnings inside the factory?
No. Sir, I do not think so, but if my hon. Friend will put down a Question, I will endeavour to answer it. My hon. Friend will remember that one of the reasons that was given in the course of the Debate in reference to this matter was to meet the objections that other income might come to the knowledge of employers which an employé might not desire to be known.
If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the Question, he will see that that is precisely the way in which it is drawn and that it is specially directed to that point, because in a particular case a local inspector of taxes has authorised the deductions earned in other capacities than that of the employé's employment.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the reasons which led him recently to grant tax relief to insurance companies on income allocated to policy-holders and refuses it to persons buying their homes through mortgages raised from insurance companies under a system whereby the borrower pays the Income Tax; and whether, as the irate of Income Tax is very high and may go higher, and this method unduly benefits the insurance companies and penalises many people of slender means, some of them in the forces, he will reconsider this matter?
As regards the relief from the standard rate of tax enjoyed by life insurance companies, I would refer my hon. Friend to my Budget Statement, where I explained that this relief was balanced by a restriction of the relief enjoyed by policy holders on their premiums. The question of interest payable at a fixed net rate is not peculiar to loans made by insurance companies, and I am afraid I cannot see my way to propose legislation on the matter which is one for settlement between the parties.
Surely the right hon. Gentleman must know that this really bears hardly upon people who have bought their houses and who budget to a very narrow margin and have to pay the increased taxes, while insurance companies are going to reap the benefit?
I regret that, but my hon-Friend will see that the basis of this Question is not accurate, because relief there was given by the House on my proposals and was balanced by the restrictions on relief enjoyed by policy holders on their premiums.
Excess Profits Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the widely different effect of the Excess Profits Tax on companies having a satisfactory standard for this purpose, and those having an unsatisfactory standard; and whether, in view of the fact that the existence of such widely different standards in many cases bears no relation to the efficiency of the company concerned, but is due entirely to the particular trade conditions affecting that company during the period chosen for the calculation of standard profits, he will amend the basis of the tax?
I would remind my hon. Friend that the Excess Profits Tax provides for the grant of substituted standards of profit in cases where the actual profits of the standard year were too low to constitute a reasonable standard and that, following representations made on behalf of the industry the provisions relating to substituted standards were recently modified by Section 27 of the Finance Act, 1940.
Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind, particularly in the next few months, that this Excess Profits Tax is at present causing a serious drag upon many industrial concerns which could otherwise make a greater effort in the national interest? Will my right hon. Friend try to revise it more on the basis of common sense and equity?
I have received many representations to that effect.
Trade Unions (Reimbursement)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will consider the reimbursement of moneys paid out by trade unions for unemployment benefits when such unemployment has been caused by enemy action!
The resources of the Unemployment Insurance Fund are derived as to one-third from Government contributions; and the Government "have supplemented the normal social services by comprehensive measures, the full cost of which falls on the taxpayer, for the relief of those who lose home or livelihood as a result of enemy action. In these circumstances I should not feel justified in proposing in addition a contribution from public funds towards the outgoings referred to in the Question.
Questions
United States Munitions (Payment)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether supplies of American munitions are still on the basis of cash and carry; and, if not, whether he will indicate what new system of payment has been introduced?
The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative, and the second part does not therefore arise.
Government Departments
Staffs (Non-British Parentage)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the variation of the policies with regard to the employment in Government Departments of British subjects not of British parentage, he will initiate a common policy which will be as sympathetic to British subjects as our general policy is to friendly aliens who wish to help our war effort?
I do not at the moment consider it necessary to make any radical change in the general rules to which the hon. Member refers; they are all open to exception in the public interest to admit of the temporary employment of British subjects where suitable candidates satisfying the rule are not available.
Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that that is not the answer which comes from individual Government Departments, which state that they are prohibited by the Regulations from making use of British subjects who are not of British-born parents? Will he see that every Government Department acts on a common policy?
They do so far as I am aware, but security reasons are, of course, paramount in many cases.
Will my right hon. and gallant Friend consult the President of the Board of Trade? If so, he will see that what he has said is not carried out in practice.
Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman explain why a British-born subject, not of British parentage, is deprived of the opportunity of being employed by the State but later on is conscripted for His Majesty's Forces?
Treasury Investigating Section
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the reasons for with, holding from the public the name of the business expert who is charged with overhauling the Departmental machinery?
In order to cope with the many problems of war-time administration, the staff of the Treasury Investigating Section has been substantially strengthened, in the main by the appointment of officers with experience of office organisation outside the Civil Service. The members of this Section, either individually or collectively, are in the normal course of their duties conducting a number of investigations at the present time. It would, in my view, be undesirable to particularise the individual officer or officers undertaking any specific investigation.
May I ask my right hon. and gallant Friend whether, in view of the urgent need for overhauling the machinery of Government Departments in order to speed up business, he does not realise that it would give much greater confidence to the public if we were allowed to know who the people were whom the Government were asking to come in and overhaul the machinery, which badly needs overhauling
Without accepting any of the hon. Lady's premises, there is a disadvantage in giving the names of individuals, because, while they are doing this work, they naturally come within the general scope of anonymity which prevails among civil servants. If names in any particular case were divulged, the only result of that would be that they would become the victims of a great deal of correspondence, which they are setting out to check.
Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that in the case of pensions committees which were set up to examine the Ministry of Pensions administration, the names of the business experts on those committees were announced? Why should there be any differentiation between one Government Department and another?
Questions
Government Appointments and Granting of Commissions
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in connection with Government appointments and the granting of commissions, he will give an assurance that from now onwards, for the duration of the war, influence will be ignored and that the only test will be one of ability?
My hon. Friend may rest assured that, in the making of Government appointments, the sole criterion employed is and will remain the suitability and qualification of the individual for the post concerned. I am authorised by the Ministers in charge of the Service Departments to say that so far as they are concerned, the same criterion obtains.
Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that there are many instances at the moment of persons holding appointments through influence, and can we have an assurance that influence -will not be allowed to outweigh ability? My right hon. and gallant Friend does not seem to have answered the Question fully. Is he not a past-master of the political technique of avoiding awkward questions?
Education
School Shelters (Construction Costs)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the recent Government decision to reimburse the whole cost of future contracts for the construction and equipment of public air-raid shelters, he proposes to revise the grant payable to local education authorities in respect of the provision of school shelters?
Yes, Sir. The Board propose to pay grant at the rate of 100 per cent, on expenditure incurred by local education authorities on the construction and equipment of school shelters under contracts entered into on or after 19th October last, on the understanding that shelters so aided shall, where required, be made available for the use of the general public after school hours.
Do I understand that only those who come in after the 19th will rank for grant?
That is so.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether that will apply to the educational authorities in Scotland?
indicated assent .
School Attendance, London (Transport)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the London County Council decision to enforce compulsory school attendance in London, and the fact that many school buildings are being utilised for other purposes, he can state what transport arrangements are being provided for children under 11 years of age to reach school?
So far as can be judged at present, no need for transport is likely to anise. If the review of the position should indicate such need in any particular case this will be considered by the local education authority.
Questions
Royal Navy (Shipbuilding)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether our output of shipping tonnage is keeping abreast of the losses; and whether all our shipyards, both large and small, are working at their highest potential capacity?
72, 73 and 74.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) how many slips in the shipyards on the Clyde are vacant at present, and what is the longest period they have been vacant since January, 1939;
(2) whether there is any graving dock on the Clyde owned or leased by a shipbuilding company which has been empty; and whether he can state the periods during which no ship has been occupying this dock for repair;
(3) how many slips are out of use on the Clyde through the operation of National Securities Corporation; how many can be put back in use for the building of ships; and how soon this can be done?
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is satisfied that all shipyards in this country are being worked to capacity; and whether it has been possible to reconstruct for use any of the shipyards which disappeared under the rationalisation scheme?
It is undesirable to give in public the detailed information asked for in these Questions, since this would enable the enemy to make deductions which would help him to gauge our war effort.
While I fully appreciate my hon. and gallant Friend's reply, is he aware that the general impression is that there is a large available capacity for building these smaller types of craft, which would be useful against the submarine menace?
I can assure my hon. Friend that we are taking the greatest pains to use every possible means of increasing the number of our ships, both in the Navy and the Mercantile Marine.
Is it not the case that the circumstances which prevail in some parts of this country are known intimately to large numbers of people who believe that the manner in which things are being directed is becoming a scandal? Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman get matters revised at the earliest possible opportunity, so that production is increased, as it can be increased, by taking over the places which are at present lying vacant?
I will draw my right hon. Friend's attention to the hon. Gentleman's statement.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman give us an assurance that shipyards all over the country are being put back into use for the purpose of building more tonnage?
Generally speaking, I think that is so.
It is not so.
Will my hon. and gallant Friend see whether his right hon. Friend is satisfied with the question of priorities of material and men allocated for shipbuilding?
I think my hon. Friend had better put that Question down.
War Damage Insurance
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now in a position to state when the terms of the forthcoming legislation for the insurance of buildings and their contents against war risks will be presented; will he consider using the existing insurance machinery, so far as practicable, with a view to saving the necessity of building up another Government Department and thereby saving the country's money and, at the same time securing maximum efficiency; and will he also consider that the amounts to be insured should bear the same relationship as amounts insured by fire policies, so that there is a common basis for fire and war risks insurance?
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give an assurance that the forthcoming Bill for insuring against war damage will make the utmost provision possible for the repair of buildings having historical or archaeological interest, especially holding in mind future tourist traffic?
The text of the War Damage Bill will be available to Members to-morrow, and my hon. Friends will perhaps await the statement which I shall make on the Second Reading of the Bill.
China (Financial Assistance)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the attention of His Majesty's Government has been drawn to the financial assistance which the United States Government propose to give to China, and whether His Majesty's Government have under consideration the grant of similar assistance for China's sterling needs.
The United States Government announced on 30th November their intention to extend to the Government of China large credits for strengthening the United States dollar resources available to the Chinese monetary authorities and for other purposes. His Majesty's Government for their part, having regard to the importance of their financial and economic relations with China, have now decided to grant further financial assistance to that country.
It is, of course, necessary for His Majesty's Government to conserve their gold and dollar assets for the essential war needs of the sterling area, and they cannot offer to China United States dollars or sterling which is convertible into United States dollars. Provided, however, that suitable arrangements can be made to ensure that sterling held in China is available only for use in the sterling area, His Majesty's Government are prepared in principle to make an advance of £5,000,000 to the Chinese stabilisation fund, and with the concurrence of the Dominion. Governments concerned, to grant credits which will be available for purchases in any part of the sterling area within a maximum of a further £5,000,000. This decision has been communicated to the Chinese Government with a request that they will make arrangements for the early negotiation of the preliminary technical agreement on which the possibility of these further sterling credits depends.
Business of the House
Will the Prime Minister state the Business of the House on the third Sitting day after 8th December?
On the third Sitting day, the Adjournment of the House will be moved, and a Debate will take place on shipping. I think it is desirable that it should take place in secret.
New Member Sworn
Gerard Spencer Summers, Esquire, for the borough of Northampton.
War Operations, Egypt
As I told the House some months ago, the collapse of France seriously endangered our position in the Mediterranean, and made the task of defending Egypt from an Italian invasion one of extreme difficulty, the more so as we were compelled to face the menace of invasion ourselves at home. However, by the time my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War paid his important visit to the Middle East in October, reinforcements of men and material had reached Sir Archibald Wavell, commanding the British and Imperial Army of the Nile, sufficient not only to give a greater feeling of security, but to open the possibility of an assumption of the offensive. However, at this moment the Italian invasion of Greece made it necessary for us to send a con- siderable part of our Air Force from Egypt to aid the Greek Army in their heroic defence of their native land. As the House knows, the part played by the Royal Air Force in the Greek victories has been most important, and we have received the warmest expressions of gratitude from the Greek King and Government for the aid we were able to give. The serious temporary diminution of our Air Force in Egypt made it necessary somewhat to delay the execution of the offensive plans which had been matured, and it was not until the beginning of this month that our Air Force in Egypt was once again in a position to afford the necessary support to a forward movement.
Accordingly, on the night of 7th December, a strong detachment from the Army of the Nile under Sir Maitland Wilson, comprising British and Imperial troops and a detachment from the Free French Forces, advanced towards the positions which the Italians had fortified since their incursion across the Egyptian frontier three months ago. It will be realised that the operation of advancing almost in a single bound across 75 miles of desert, is one which is by no means free from hazard and complexity when considerable forces are employed. It was with satisfaction that His Majesty's Government learned that this long and rapid approach bad been successfully accomplished. Yesterday morning, the 9th, our Forces came into contact with the enemy at various points over a wide front, stretching from Sidi Barrani on the coast into the desert. An attack was delivered against the positions of the Italian centre to the Southward of Sidi Barrani. In the first defended area which was assaulted and over-rim, 500 prisoners and some war material fell into our hands, the Italian General in Command was killed, and his second in command was captured. Later in the day, a further advance was made into a second and stronger and more important position nearer to the coast, and more prisoners and material were taken. Other British Forces also reached the coast between Sidi Barrani and Buq-Buq, making further captures of transport and prisoners. It is too soon to attempt to forecast either the scope or the result of the considerable operations which are in progress. But we can at any rate say that the preliminary phase has been successful.
The British Mediterranean Fleet and the Royal Air Force are, of course, co-operating closely with the Army. British warships have bombarded the various coastal positions involved in the fighting, including particularly Maktila and Sidi Barrani. Some details of the air action have been received. On the 8th a heavy attack was made by our bombers on the enemy aerodrome at Ben-ghazi, where about 25 tons of bombs were dropped effectively on hangars and among aircraft. On the same night air attacks were made on the Italian advanced aerodromes in prelude to the morning's action; and throughout yesterday our bombers continuously harassed the Italian advanced aerodromes, while our fighter aircraft, in which Hurricane squadrons are conspicuous, made low-flying machine-gun attacks on enemy troops and motor transport, causing substantial loss. We shall no doubt receive further news shortly.
When the Prime Minister says that some of our Forces reached the coast between Sidi Barrani and Buq-Buq, does that mean that the Italian Army at Sidi Barrani has been cut off from its main force?
I think it would be a mistake for me to add anything to the very carefully considered words that I have used.
Orders of the Day
Expiring Laws Continuance Bill
Considered in Committee.
(Colonel CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.)
CLAUSE 1.—(Continuance of Acts in Schedule.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I do not know whether I am in order in raising two points at this stage. I should like to refer the Committee to the Financial Memorandum to the Bill—I do not know whether it is in order for me to raise this matter now or whether I should refer to it when we come to the Schedule—which states:
"If the Minister of Labour should appoint a board under the proposed continuing provisions of the Cotton Manufacturing Industry (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1934.…"
I was wondering whether it was possible for a Government spokesman to tell us what is the intention of the Government in connection with the setting-up of this Board. My second point, which I think is also covered under Clause 1 of the Bill, is in connection with the explanation on the front page of the Bill.
I think it would be more in order if these points were raised on the Schedule.
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this be the Schedule to the Bill."
I do not wish to repeat myself, but I should like to ask what is the intention of the Government in the setting up of the Board. My second point is a little more important. It is stated in the Financial Memorandum: I notice that England and Wales are, for this purpose, separated from Scotland. I have no right to speak on behalf of Wales, but as a native of that country I often wish that Wales was separated, as Scotland is, from England, although whether that could be done or not in this case I do not know.
The chief point which I desire to raise, however, is this. In carrying this provision forward to the end of 1942, I think the Government are doing a very wise thing. I have represented what is, more or less, a distressed area for about 10 years. Unemployment there has been as high, almost, as anywhere in the country, but, strangely enough, there is hardly any unemployment at all there at the moment. It took a first-class European war to solve the unemployment problem in my constituency. That is to say, when peace comes we suffer heavy unemployment. I hope the Government will be good enough, therefore, to look forward to the end of hostilities and consider the problems connected with the Special Areas, on the lines I have indicated. I hope it will not be fixed in their minds that the Special Areas which existed before the outbreak of the present war, will necessarily be the Special Areas which will exist at the end of hostilities. I hope they will not have their attention fixed exclusively on certain coal, cotton and engineering areas. I suggest that they will have to assume that when the present war ends the country will suffer from unemployment in a different form from that which has existed up to now. Having said so much, I wish to add, on behalf of hon. Members who sit on these benches, that we have no further comments to offer on the Bill.
I should perhaps point out, although the hon. Member has already spoken, that Amendments to the existing Act are not in Order in a discussion on the Schedule to the Bill.
I did not seek to move any Amendment
I should like to offer one comment regarding the Special Areas grant, and its application. It is of extreme importance that the experience gathered by the Special Commissioners in regard to these distressed areas should be used in the location of industry during the present crisis. Industries are being re-located and in spite of what has just been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies), it is possible that after the war the present distressed areas will be in even worse distress. Therefore, speaking for Scotland, I hope that due regard is being paid to the location of industry during the crisis and that the experience of the Special Commissioners will be taken into account in directing the location of new industries and in trying to prevent any recurrence in the future of the terrible distress which affected these areas for many years after the last war.
I do not think the Committee will expect me to comment on the second point raised by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mir. Rhys Davies), or on the remarks just made by the hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) except to say that they will be noted by the Department. With regard to the question of the Cotton Manufacturing Industry (Temporary Provisions) Act, the Committee will remember that the Act of 1934 was passed for a period of three years, expiring at the end of 1937 and was continued by subsequent Expiring Laws Continuance Acts. This legislation was regarded as an experiment in the compulsory extension of voluntary agreements. Both the employers' organisations and the trade unions concerned want the provisions continued and the Measure is generally regarded as having been successful in its operation. Arising out of the discussion in connection with the passing of the Cotton Industry (Reorganisation) Act, 1939, an undertaking was given to examine, in consultation with the industry, the question of extending the policy of giving statutory effect to wages agreements in the cotton industry generally. Arrangements were made for proposals to be submitted by the industry but owing to the emergency these have not yet been produced. (Since last year, however, the position has altered to the extent that the general powers taken by the Minister of Labour under the Conditions of Employment and National Arbitration Order, 1940, give similar protection to the industry as regards wages and conditions and, in fact, agreed war increases have not been covered by any Order under the Act. Nevertheless, this Order is a war measure and it is too early as yet to assume that this or a similar Measure will be continued after the war by formal enactments. Since, however, the cotton industry, failing general legislation of a similar character, will undoubtedly wish to retain that measure of protection which is afforded to it by the Act, it was thought desirable that its operation should be extended under the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill and thus it has been included in the Schedule.
I desire to know whether the Commissioners for the Special Areas are at present authorised to expend moneys in connection with the location of industry. This matter is causing great concern in North-West Durham. In the county of Durham to-day owing to the loss of export markets there are some 40,000 unemployed and the Government are, properly, arranging that a certain number of eligible persons shall be sent into other industries, while others are being trained for munition work. But these schemes have only, so far, dealt with some 4,000 persons, leaving us with a very large number of unemployed men who are competent in industry and possess those qualifications for which the Durham miner is well known. I should like some assurance that in the location of new industries the county of Durham will have consideration and that the Commissioners will be empowered to spend money to that end. It seems to me and to my colleagues in the county of Durham it is better to locate those industries, which are still being set up in this country in areas like North-West Durham, rather than to-have large numbers of unemployed persons and their families evacuated from their homesteads and their native place.
Question, "That this be the Schedule to the Bill" put, and agreed to.
Bill reported, without Amendment.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
May I have an answer to the important question which I addressed to the Parliamentary Secretary?
The hon. Member has not asked any question which it is possible to answer at the present time. He has not asked a question on a specific proposition but if he would be good enough to put down a Question on such a subject, I should be happy to give him an answer. With regard to the general plan, I am sure he is aware that no large expenditure of money was contemplated under this Measure during the war. It was clearly understood last year when the Act was extended that only minor expenditure would be incurred over and above that which would have been incurred if the Act had been allowed to lapse.
The question which I addressed to the Minister was a specific one. A new situation, as I pointed out, has arisen in the county of Durham, whereby some 40,000 willing workers are to-day unemployed. We ask whether the Commissioners for the Special Areas who were set up to deal with large questions of unemployment, are empowered or will be empowered to arrange for the establishment of new industries in Durham? I fail to see that any more specific statement could be made than that which I have made, and I think we are entitled, if not to an answer now, at all events to a promise that a subsequent answer will be given.
As one who has been concerned in the last two years with protesting against the proposed exclusion from the Bill of the continuation of this Act, I was very pleased indeed to see that it is to be continued for two years. Having gone through one of the Special Areas for many years and knowing all that has happened, and what may happen at the end of the war, I am very grateful indeed for its inclusion once more so that we may be sure that it is there' if it is needed again.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
Local Elections and Register of Electors (Temporary Provisions) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
The purpose of this Bill is to continue until the end of December, 1941, the provisions of the Act of the same name which was passed last year with certain additions and Amendments. That Act suspended local elections until the end of 1940, and it provided for the continuance in office of members of local councils whose time would otherwise have expired, and for the filling of casual vacancies which might occur through the death or resignation of members of local authorities by means of co-option. It also suspended all steps towards the preparation of a register of electors and of a jurors book. It further imposed a prohibition on any alteration of the area or constitution of local authorities. When the Bill was before the House the then Home Secretary, now Lord President of the Council, explained that, although it was the intention of the Government that normal electoral activity should be suspended until the war is over, it was desirable to proceed by stages, so that Parliament should have the matter under control. For this reason the period during which local elections were suspended would be advanced from time to time by further legislation, as was done during the last war. I have very little doubt that the Bill will be regarded to be as necessary as was its predecessor. Indeed the circumstances now prevailing are far more urgent in warranting the suspension of electoral activity than those which existed 12 months ago.
Apart from the small Amendments contained in the Schedule, the Bill possesses two new features, First, it extends the suspension of elections to Scottish county and district council elections which are due to be held in 1941 but which were not due to be held in 1940. This is done by the first Amendment to Section 8 of the Schedule. Secondly, it contains a provision in Clause 2 safeguarding the superannuation rights of certain contributory employees if local authorities part of whose remuneration is normally derived from the work of preparing the register of electors and the jurors book. Under the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1937, and its equivalent in Scotland, the superannuation allowances of these officials are calculated on the averge remuneration for the five years preceding their retirement, and thus the inclusion in that five-year period of a year or years in which this work of the preparation of the register is not carried out would affect the rate of their superannuation. What we provide in Clause 2 is that any of these contributory employees may contribute to this superannuation fund on the basis of the remuneration which he received in the year 1939. If he so decides to continue his contribution on that scale, his 1939 remuneration will be the basis of reckoning his superannuatinn allowance.
It is optional?
Yes. The other matters that are dealt with in the Schedule are points of detail. The Amendment to Section 3 removes the obligations of local registrars to furnish quarterly returns of deaths to local registration officers. As no register is to be compiled next year, it is obvious that the furnishing of those returns is valueless. Secondly, under the Amendment in the Schedule to Section 3 we remove the obligation to furnish copies of the Register of Electors on request. The last register was compiled in 1939. Copies of it are limited in number. The type has been broken up and there is always a possibility that there may be a violation in any constituency at any moment and it would be embarrassing, therefore, if all the copies of the Register were to be parted with and copies were not available if a Parliamentary by-election became necessary. The second Amendment to Section 8 provides for election by a council of a burgh in Scotland in the event of a casual vacancy. The Amendment to Section 10 provides that co-opted members of a local authority—members co-opted under the provisions of last year's Act—shall remain in office, as do non-co-opted members until six months after the expiry of the Act.
What is a "berg" in Scotland?
I hope the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland will be able to deal with any points of that kind which may arise.
There is an "h." It should be "burgh."
I have consulted my hon. Friend on the pronunciation of these very difficult words in my brief, and he has endeavoured to give me guidance. The term of office of co-opted members will in future expire at the same time as the term of office of non-co-opted members, and that will be six months after the expiry of the Act. That would, of course, give time, as was promised on the Second Reading of the Prolongation of Parliament Bill, for the preparation of a new register of electors. I think I have given an explanation which hon. Members will, at any rate, understand.
The Under-Secretary has said that this Bill is as necessary as its predecessor, but I have always taken the view that its predecessor was unnecessary. There was no reason during the period that is known as the "phoney" war why by-elections in different parts of the country for the various governing bodies should not have taken place. Indeed, as Parliamentary elections are still taking place, it is difficult to understand why it is not possible to have local government by-elections. I appreciate, however, that as the Under-Secretary said, the circumstances of the moment justify this Measure much more than when the original Act was introduced. I still think it would have been better to have introduced a Measure which gave the Government power in certain areas to suspend the operations of local elections, but to permit certain areas where people desired elections, and there was no difficulty in carrying them out, to hold them. Perhaps the Under-Secretary would be good enough to address himself to the conundrum, which has been unanswered so far, as to why we can have Parliamentary by-elections and not local government by-elections. Apart from that, I agree that in the circumstances, having made a mistake a year ago in the particular form in which the Measure was introduced, that it is not possible now to do anything other than my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has suggested.
I take it that this Bill is to be regarded largely as non-controversial. In the local areas whose interests are involved in the Bill, however, they are certainly not as satisfied to have this imposed upon them as the House feels to be necessary in the circumstances. There is a certain magnanimity en the part of the Labour party in allowing this Bill to pass unchallenged. I am sure that municipal elections at this moment would be to our distinct profit and would, strengthen the ranks of our party. That is the impression held by many Tories. The year's working of the Act, as the Minister said, showed up certain minor weaknesses and an attempt is being made in the Bill to rectify them. There is one weakness, however, which I think is the principal weakness, that a year's working of the Measure has demonstrated, but there is no effort in this Bill to deal with it. I refer to the filling of vacancies, and it could probably be dealt with by the Government if they took the matter in hand. I will explain what is in my mind. Take the instance of those local councils which are run on non-party lines. It is true that they are generally curiosities. A non-party man is a lazy-minded, incipient Tory. One can see that difficulties at once arise in filling a vacancy caused by the retirement of such a gentleman. Then there is the gentleman who calls himself independent. Generally speaking, he is very dependent indeed on some outside interest or outside body of people. If he retires from the council, the question arises, What kind of person should be put in his place and who should have the right to fill it? He may have been, in a political way, anything from extreme Right to extreme Left. At all events, he may have been quite a queer fish. It is certain that there could not be found in the ward he represents or the authority upon which he sits his replica in the electorate at large.
Advantage is taken in such a case by the predominant party on the council to fill it in accordance with their own colour. There may be a member who is elected for one party and transfers his allegiance while sitting on the council to another party, which may be very hostile to the one on whose behalf he was elected. The question arises in his case, if he retires, Which party has the right to fill the vacancy? We find that in cases of this sort the Labour party stands to lose, and I want some assurance from the Minister that an effort will be made in the Bill to secure political fairness in the filling of vacancies on local councils. I feel sure that he will be in sympathy with my desire and will be able to discover some means of meeting it by an Amendment to the Bill. I would like the Minister of Health to have authority to deal with puzzling cases and cases where unfairness is likely, and to have the right to intervene and settle the matter justly.
I would like to make reference to the proposal to extend this Bill to cover county councils in Scotland. I do so with special consideration for the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Central Bradford (Mr. Leach). The essence of this electoral arrangement is that there shall be no abuse of the position held on town or county councils toy the predominant parties. It may be that the Labour party tend to lose in a great number of cases, but an abuse might occur no matter which party was in power. If it does occur it leads to irritation and to a destruction of the unity which exists in the country. Therefore, I urge upon the Government to make arrangements in the Bill so that supervision can be exercised over such local government authorities as are not prepared to observe the truce between political parties.
In Scotland there have been three flagrant violations of this arrangement. I pay tribute to the large number of local authorities which have honourably observed the arrangement. In my county of Stirling recently, however, there was a case where the county council co-opted the defeated member at the last election—the very man whom the electorate rejected. They did that in face of the fact that a nomination was put forward by the nominating body, which was the Labour party; indeed, they gave the council a choice of two candidates. One of the two people whose names were put forward was the secretary of the Stirlingshire miners, a man held in great respect throughout the county, and the other was a Mr. William Ryan, who has played a large part in local affairs in his area, and there could be no justification for a county council using its power to violate flagrantly the whole industrial arrangements and adopt a candidate who had already been rejected by the electorate. In Inverness a similar thing took place, and in Darvel, I understand, the abuse was carried to the same extent. In Inverness the seat had been held by Labour for 11 years and yet the council took this opportunity to co-opt an opponent of the party which had held the seat. Therefore, before we agree to pass this Bill and extend this Clause to the county councils of Scotland, we ought to have some assurance from the Government that some control will be exercised over councils which flagrantly violate the general purposes of the Bill.
I do not wish to say anything on the major principle of the Bill, but I would invite the Under-Secretary to say a word or two more in justification of Clause 2, which deals with the superannuation of local government employés. In the local government superannuation arrangements, provision is made whereby a man's pension on retirement is based on his average salary in the last five years of his service, a principle which is followed in many statutory superannuation funds. I do not think it is a good principle, because I do not think it makes for actuarial Safety and solvency, but it exists. What I wish to know is, why should it be necessary to import this subject into a Bill which deals with the specific question of the cessation of local government elections? I take it that local government superannuation schemes already provide for taking into consideration, in computing the average upon which superannuation benefits are assessed, any extra emoluments over and above the standard salaries, and why should this particular form of emolument be dealt with in this Bill? There are numbers of men in the local government service who have undertaken extra work in connection with A.R.P. and other matters for which they receive something over and above their normal salaries. Are the extra amounts given in that way eligible for inclusion in computing the average salary for superannuation purposes, or not? Do they fall within the general provisions of the superannuation scheme? If they do, why is this specific extra payment for the compilation of electoral registers or juror books excluded, so that it needs to be dealt with in this wary? As there seems to be something a little unusual about this Clause, I should be glad to have a rather fuller explanation.
I wish to raise only one point, and I trust that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland may be able to reply to it, because the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Office did not refer to it. Many of the councils in Scotland include members nominated by outside organisations. Those members do not stand for election but are nominated by the Dean of Guild or some merchant organisation. That takes place in Glasgow, and, I understand, in Aberdeen and in other parts of Scotland. I wish to know whether anything is to be done about the continued nomination of these people. Our experience in Glasgow has been that the men nominated by these merchant organisations have always been men opposed very definitely to the policy of the Labour party. They have been real "dyed in the wool" Tories, and it is well that we should face that fact. I should have thought, now that we have attained national unity and act as one in this war effort, that we should desire to see the local authorities working with the same harmony as exists in the House of Commons, and I make bold to put forward the suggestion that a local trades council or borough labour party should be given the opportunity, perhaps alternately with these other organisations, of making these nominations. Our trades councils and borough parties are responsible organisations of men and women, who know local needs—know them much more intimately than the nominee of a master tailors' association or a master plumbers' association. I think it is a sound point to make that an opportunity .should be given to these trade councils and borough parties to make nominations in turn with employers organisations. To do so would allay much criticism and bring about an even closer national unity than we have, because it would assist in giving the fullest representation to all sections of political life.
While I do not desire to prevent the passage of this Measure, even if I had the power to do so, I felt so strongly against the original Bill that I did not vote in favour of it. I was unable to see the reasons for a distinction between Parliamentary and municipal elections. If the House thought it good not to prohibit Parliamentary elections, then a similar liberty ought to have been extended to the municipal authorities. In this war the local authorities are playing a preeminent part in matters of defence, in matters affecting hospital arrangements, emergency measures for the feeding of the population, and so forth. In my own experience I have known local authorities refuse to act in harmony with the sentiments of public opinion, but the ratepayers are debarred from demanding the resignation of those whom they regard as no longer representing their views, and it seems highly desirable, if it were possible, that the Government should take power, in cases where a large section of the ratepayers demand that an election should be held, to grant that request. No provision is made in this Measure for that to be done. Powers should be given to Government Departments to deal with admitted abuses which have arisen, but no such authority exists. To that extent I consider that the Measure is lacking in effectiveness to meet the necessities of the case, particularly the new difficulties which have arisen in municipal government, directly arising out of the war.
A very important point was raised by the hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. Davidson). He suggested that there might be a reconstitution—that is what it amounts to—of councils like Glasgow. That would be a drastic alteration in the Constitution, and could not be dealt with in a minor Bill of this kind. There are nominating bodies for cities like Glasgow or Edinburgh. I understand that Edinburgh is in exactly the same position as other councils. It would mean a drastic alteration in the law to reconstitute the number of nominating bodies, and such an alteration cannot be faced in a Bill of this kind; but it can receive consideration between now and the introduction of a Bill to deal with ail the problems associated with after-war elections. I can hold out no hope of support from counties of cities for the drastic proposals made by the hon. Member, but I can assure him that, as in all other cases, suggestions which are thrown out will at least receive consideration.
On the Bill in general, it has been suggested that it might be possible to allow local elections to go on. That would be practically impossible in existing conditions. A large number of people have been evacuated and an enormous number transferred from one area to another for productive purposes. There is also the fact that the register on which elections would take place would be the register of 1938, and altogether out of date. That would make it practically impossible to conduct local elections.
Does not that apply equally to Parliamentary elections?
May I remind the hon. Member that we have postponed General Elections, and that when you are dealing with county councils in Scotland it is practically a matter of general elections, since all the county councillors in Scotland come out at one and the same time. In the case of burghs, only one-third of the county councillors retire each year, but just the same problem of an out-of-date register would have to be faced. Half of the population in many instances have been transferred from their original towns, but in some cases they have to pay rates there and still have an interest in the local government. It would, therefore, be practically impossible in any election that took place to get a true reflection in existing conditions of the actual electorate.
The Bill deals with Scottish as well as with English problems. We have made contact with the local authorities in Scotland with a view to obtaining their opinions about the Bill operating for a year. We found that in Scotland, in regard to superannuation, registration officers have not, as a whole, suffered any abatement of salary. This is due to the fact that the officers' conditions are slightly different from those in England. In England, I understand that a different problem has been thrown up and that, as a result of registration work ceasing, there has in many instances been a reduction in salary. Under the existing method of calculation of superannuation benefit, it would inevitably mean a reduction of the pension for these individuals. They are not compelled to pay, but are getting only an option to pay. Surely it is right to give them that option and not to try to make them lose benefit to which, in normal conditions, they would be entitled, on the basis of the five years calculation. In Scotland, our registration officers hold also the office of assessor, which duties have been continued. Where a reduction of salary has been made, on account of loss of registration, this has been compensated for by assigning additional duties to the registration officer, and paying him for them. Despite this, it might be possible that some persons might lose superannuation rights unless provision were made in the Bill.
Another problem has had to be faced in Scotland with regard to burgh authorities. These have the power to elect the magistrates to sit on the bench, to work under various Acts of Parliament which give them power to deal with various matters; not merely with the misdemeanours of the population but with many other matters which are handed over to the magistrates on the bench.
Such as licensing.
Yes, and a few other problems, but I do not want to go into all the details. We have different problems from England. In terms of Section 8 ( b ) of the Act of 1939, nothing in Section 1 of that Act is to operate to continue any town councillor in the office of bailie or judge of police beyond the date at which he would cease to be a councillor if the Act had not been passed. Where, however, a councillor has been continued in office by virtue of Section 1 of the Act, or has been co-opted as a councillor since the Act was passed and has subsequently been appointed to the office of bailie or police judge, it would appear to us that he should continue to hold such office as long as he remains a councillor. A certain number of difficulties has been created, and we have not been able to straighten them out in the limited time before bringing forward the Bill. We approached the Convention of Royal Burghs and the Association of Counties of Cities, who were asked whether provisions should be included in the Bill to limit the term of office as bailies or as police judge to a period expiring in November, 1941, when the next local election would normally have taken place, or whether the Bill should continue the Act in operation for a year only. We wanted to know how they desired to have the scheme worked out for making provision for the term of office.
In reply to our inquiries, we found that in the opinion of the Convention of Royal Burghs and the counties of cities of Edinburgh, Dundee and Aberdeen, they proposed to let the Act of last year be continued. The Parliamentary Bills Committee of Glasgow considered that provision should now be included in the Bill limiting the term of office to a period expiring in November, 1941, but because of the need for getting this Bill speedily on the Statute Book, we thought it was impossible to deal with that particular problem at the present time. We decided in the circumstances, as I have already indicated, not to include a provision for dealing with the election of magistrates. We have, however, agreed to consult with local authorities at an early date so that in any Bill that will require to be brought in next year we should be in the position of knowing exactly the attitude of local authorities and of being able, therefore, to deal with that problem.
Another problem that we had to face was that county councils for burghs are elected by town councils from among their own members in the years in which county council elections take place, and, as has already been pointed out, this Bill extends the Act to county councils and district councils in Scotland. Casual vacancies on our county councils are filled by the town councils or county councils for burghs, and under existing laws cease to hold office in the year of the next county council elections, or when they cease to be town councillors. The Convention of Royal Burghs and the Association of County Councillors were asked whether they thought provision should now be made for such members to cease to hold office in 1941. The Association of County Councils, by a majority, have agreed that it will be better to allow them to continue in office under the existing arrangements. I thought it right to explain the Scottish position to this House.
I notice that my hon. Friend has not consulted the county councils as to whether they should continue in office themselves. Has he consulted the burghs as to whether they want to reserve the right to reelect the county councils?
Not the burghs as burghs, but we have consulted the Convention of Royal Burghs, which represent all the burghs in Scotland, and they have agreed to the procedure that we are following, which will give us the necessary time to discuss the whole matter with them more fully with a view to the preparations that have to (be made for the Bill that will have to follow this one.
A very important point was raised by the hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) It is true that there are local authorities which have not been too careful in regard to filling casual vacancies. I think that the hon. Member referred to three flagrant cases that have happened in Scotland. I understand that so far as Darvel is concerned, no appointment has yet been made; it is still in abeyance. In regard to Fort William and Inverness, it was an unofficial Labour candidate who was appointed to the vacancy. It was made perfectly clear when the Bill which was placed on the Statute Book last year was introduced that the Government were very anxious that the political truce should be honestly given effect to by all local authorities where a vacancy occurred, whether it was a Labour member or a Moderate, as we call them in Scotland. The Stirlingshire case is an excellent example of not playing the game. It does not help us. Very few of these cases have happened in England. We have had these three outstanding cases in Scotland and I think Stirlingshire is about the worst case of all. As has already been pointed out, Labour put forward two representatives and gave the county council the choice of one or the other. I do not defend that procedure too strongly; I think the Labour movement ought to have made its own determination and put forward only one candidate. That would have given the Moderates less chance of running away with the candidate they nominated, who had been defeated at the previous county council election. I am afraid it would be impossible in a Bill of this kind, which deals with an extension of existing law, to bring in the suggestion already made by one hon. Member that power should be taken for the Home Secretary in England or the Department of Health in Scotland—
The Ministry of Health in England.
The Bill deals with England and Scotland, and the same duties would devolve upon the Secretary of State in Scotland as upon the Ministry of Health in England. I am afraid you are asking for something that is practically impossible, for the simple reason that it would be the Minister of Health in the one case and the Secretary of State for Scotland in the other who would have to deal with all the details and be concerned in all the local squabbles in connection with nomination, and that would be extraordinarily difficult.
Is not my hon. Friend now going on the assumption that there are going to be a vast number of these cases, though he stated only a minute or so ago that they were very rare?
If no cases existed in England, there would be no need for the proposal made.
But they are not common.
I had better keep off ground of which I am not sure, but my information is that there have been very few. That is equally true in connection with Scotland. There are the three cases I have mentioned, but most of the local authorities are trying to play the game. We want the local authorities to play the game; they are not helping national unity unless they do, and it is grossly unfair, when they are appealed to by the Government to see that the political truce is carried out, that they should fill vacancies with members of an opposite party, no matter what that party may be. So far as Scotland is concerned, I am prepared to give an undertaking that, by circular, we will draw the attention of all the local authorities in Scotland to the Government's desire that the political truce shall be properly kept.
What is the difficulty, since in this case it is a county council judging its own case? Normally, there is an appeal to the electorate. That appeal has been taken away by Parliament. Is it not possible for Parliament to substitute another appeal temporarily, providing that the bodies themselves might have the right to appeal and that appointments should be suspended until they have the approval either of the Secretary of State for Scotland or of the appropriate Department in England?
I am afraid I can hold out no hope of the power of nomination or selection being taken over by either the Ministry of Health in England or the Secretary of State for Scotland.
I did not say that.
That is what it means in this particular case, and I can hold out no hope of that being accepted.
In the event of something happening of the nature which the hon. Gentleman has just described, could not a party belonging to a local council appeal to the Minister? I would like that made quite clear. Has he no power at all to intervene?
Under existing law we have no power to intervene.
Will it be in order, when we come to the Committee stage, to move an Amendment giving the Minister power in such cases, or would that have to be done now on the Second Reading of the Bill?
That is a matter on which the Chairman of Committee will have to rule. It is not a matter on which I can give a Ruling from the Chair now but I should suggest that it would probably be out of order.
As I already indicated, I am prepared to arrange for a circular to be issued to the local authorities to make clear exactly what the Government's point of view is, and then, if we still find authorities prepared to act as Stirlingshire County Council were prepared to act, there will be time between now and the introduction of the Bill which must follow this one to give full consideration to the points of view that have been expressed. With these explanations, I move the Second Reading of this Bill, which is a Measure dealing merely with an extension of existing law and which does not deal with the many problems which ultimately will have to be dealt with by a larger Bill dealing with the after the war problems associated with local elections.
Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House, for the next Sitting day.—( Mr. Whiteley. )
Scottish Fisheries Advisory Council Bill [Lords]
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
The purpose of this Bill is to remove the limit of 12 on the number of members of the Scottish Fisheries Advisory Council, which requires to be constituted in terms of Section 3 of the Reorganisation of Offices (Scotland) Act, 1939. The duties of the Advisory Council, as stated in the Act of 1939, are to give advice and assistance and to make recommendations to the Secretary of State in the discharge of the functions transferred to him from the Fishery Board for Scotland. By the Act of 1939, the Fishery Board for Scotland was abolished, and its functions were transferred to the Secretary of State for Scotland. The Board comprised four members, who were representative of the various sea fishing interests of Scotland. The object of the appointment of the Advisory Council is to provide on a broader basis the non-official advice previously available from the trade members of the Fishery Board. In terms of the Statute, the Council is to be constituted "as soon as may be" after the transfer of the functions, which took place on 4th September, 1939. Owing to the exigencies of the war situation, attention could not be given to the matter for some time after that date. The members of the Council fall to be appointed after consultation with such bodies representing the various sections of the fishing industry as the Secretary of State thinks fit.
The inclusion of representatives of employés is not specifically required by the Act, but it is considered essential that the council should include such representatives. In view of the variety of interests concerned, it has been found impossible to provide adequate representation of the different interests, including those of labour, wthin the present statutory maximum of 12 members. It is, therefore, proposed now to remove the statutory restrictions on the size of the council, and to leave the number of members to be determined from time to time as circumstances justify. Owing to war conditions, and to the appointment of other advisory bodies on a United Kingdom basis to consider fishery matters as affected by those conditions, the functions falling to the Scottish Fishery Advisory Council will, for the time being, be less than would be the case under normal conditions. But there are various problems affecting the Scottish fisheries for which a solution has to be found, including that of revising the normal restrictions on fishing generally in the light of war conditions. It is essental that the advice of a representative council should be available if a satisfactory solution, of such problems is to be reached. Apart from current problems, difficult questions will arise in connection with the fisheries it the end of the war; and it is desirable that the council should gain experience of its functions and be in full working order before then.
As an indication to the House, I will give the following suggested lay-out of the council: Trawling owners, Aberdeen and Leith, one member each; Skippers and mates, one member; trawl hands, one; drift net herring fishing fishermen, one; salesmen, one; ring net herring fishing fishermen, one; inshore white fishing, one; white fish merchants and curers; Aberdeen, one; herring kipperers and freshers, one; herring curers, one; for special district interests: one for the .North West Coast and Islands, and one for Shetland; general, one; labour (shore workers), two; herring exporters, one. That would result in a board of 17, in place of the 12 provided for under the 1939 Act. The special labour representatives would number four, including the representatives of trawl skippers and mates, trawl hands and shore workers. But, in addition, the two herring fishermen to be appointed will be working fishermen; so the total labour representation may be regarded as six.
So far as I know, none of my hon. Friend wishes to take great exception to any of the provisions of the Bill. But it appears to me to indicate some little confusion of thought on the part of those prompting it, that it deals partly with war-time problems and partly with post-war problems. The problems of the Scottish fisheries, like most of our problems, are at present entirely different from what they will be after the war. Most of the great difficulties at present arise out of Admiralty restrictions—very properly imposed—and no amount of discussion with the Scottish Fisheries Advisory Council, as constituted according to the outline suggested by the Minister, will help to solve such war-time problems. Therefore, I would like the Minister to consider whether he cannot also set up some very much smaller body, to get quicker and more prompt decisions on war-time problems. First, the functions of this body were discharged by a board consisting of four members. From my recollection, those four members carried out their duties very efficiently. The number was then raised to 12; presumably because the problems had become more complex. Now it is proposed to raise the number to 17. But that is not the number that the Minister asks for in the Bill. The Bill asks for an unlimited number. The Minister can appoint 50 if he so desires. I am one of those who believe that the more complex the problems to be considered, the smaller should be the committee to consider them. I do not think that any increased efficiency in deliberation is obtained by unlimited increase in the number of advisers. The Scottish fisheries present peculiar problems in this respect. The Advisory Council which it is pro posed to set up will be composed of 17 members, most of them having very conflicting interests, and the advice that the Minister would get from them, even if they were to deal with peace-time problems alone, would leave him with many head-scratching problems before he takes executive action. Will the Minister take immediate steps to ensure that for such prompt and executive action as he has to take on the day-to-day problems affecting Scottish fisheries he will have some liaison officer with the Admiralty, which will enable him to deal with them more promptly than they have been dealt with hitherto?
I can speak again only With the leave of the House. I can assure my hon. Friend that the points he has raised will receive due consideration, though, of course, I cannot give him an answer off-hand.
Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House, for the next Sitting day.—( Mr. whiteley. )
Naval and Marine Services (Temporary Release from Service) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This Bill is a very simple bit of legislation and is designed clearly to give to the Admiralty .powers which are possessed both by the War Office and the Air Ministry to demobilise temporarily men subject to recall to active service. Under the law as it now stands the Admiralty can only demobilise men who have been called up for service under the Royal Naval Reserve (Volunteers) Act, 1859—men who belong to the Statutory Reserve Forces and pensioners who are temporarily recalled to service. Men who are called up under the normal engagements or who have been called up under the National Service (Armed Forces) Act can only be released as the law stands to-day by complete discharge without liability to recall. It will be understood that our object in seeking these powers is to facilitate the temporary release from naval service of men who are required for other forms of national service, such as skilled workmen for armament work, and agricultural workers and so on.
The machinery of the Bill is comparatively simple. I think that both Sub-sections of Clause 1 are self-explanatory. Sub-section (3) of Clause 1 gives us powers to apprehend men who have failed to rejoin. Clause 2, Subsection (3) is drafted so as to regularise the position of men who has already been released prior to the passage of this Bill. I hope that with that explanation the House will be prepared to give the Bill a Second Reading.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House, for the next Sitting day.—( Mr. Whiteley. )
Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932
Resolved,
"That the Orders made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the undermentioned areas, namely:— Mr. Herbert Morrison. )
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—( Mr. Whiteley. )
Civil Defence (Detentions)
I wish to raise a matter, about which I have given notice to the Home Secretary concerning British persons for the most part who have been detained under Section 18B of the Emergency Regulations. I also took the trouble to send to the Under-Secretary particulars of the cases to which I am going to refer, and they were despatched by hand on Saturday morning, but I understand from the Under-Secretary that the letter has not arrived. I therefore regret if I put the Home Secretary to some inconvenience, because it is undesirable that names should be mentioned. However, the names are at his disposal in the cases to which I wish to refer. In opening this matter, I am not unmindful of the remarks which the present Home Secretary made when he sat on this side of the House arid criticised the Regulations, especially with regard to the integrity of Home Secretaries, which in his case, as in the case of his predecessor, I do not for one moment dispute. If he looks up his own speech on a certain day, he will find that he said that this really had nothing whatever to do with the integrity of the Home Secretary, and that any Home Secretary who had powers of this sort in his hands might very easily abuse them. Therefore, it is in that spirit that I approach the matter to make sure that my right hon. Friend keeps along the right lines and to ensure that he does not deviate from the paths of rectitude.
I raise the matter as one of principle and not with any political sympathy with persons involved, because they are, most of them—and there are some 1,500 of them—members of what is known as the British Union of Fascists. I have very little for which to thank that organisation, or its associates on the Continent. In fact, on one occasion I was very nearly done to death by them in one of the countries with which we are now at war. Some people might think that it was unfortunate that they did not go the whole of the way, but I am glad to survive to fight another day. But this is a matter of principle, and all persons have their rights, whatever their political beliefs; in fact, by the Measure which this House passed we have witnessed the complete suspension of Magna Carta. It is possible for the Home Secretary to put the whole lot of us into gaol. My personal relations with him are such that I hope he will give me due warning before he sends the "coppers" round to restrict my freedom in any way. I would remind him, as well as the Lord President of the Council, whom I am glad to see here, that we have been urged again and again that our freedom is in peril and that we must defend it with all our might. My anxiety is that in defending it we might lose it altogether. Restrictions on liberty are inevitable in time of war, but we have to be on our guard. I personally, in the circumstances, do not think that the Regulations are unreasonable, but I submit, and I hope to prove, that the administration of that has been hopelessly bad, and if, in the cases of certain people who have experienced them, one quarter of what they have told me is true, I would support their view that the administration savours too much of the Star Chamber and the Gestapo. I would call the attention of the House to the declaration of the present Lord Chancellor on 15th June when speaking in Yorkshire. He said: that it might not be possible for reasons of security to make available to a legal representative of the detained person a full dossier of the facts which have been put before the Advisory Committee, but I am sure that an arrangement could be made whereby that difficulty could be overcome by allowing a legal representative to state the case for the applicant. Most people who have not been in the political arena are terrified of appearing before boards and are quite incapable of representing their own case, specially in circumstances which these people have to endure with no real or clear idea with what they are being charged.
There is one matter that I want to clear out of the way before I speak about the general question of detention, and it concerns the British Union. I believe I am right in saying that it has been stated that people as a whole are not to be detained on account of their political beliefs. Well, so far as I can trace it, many have been detained through little else than tittle-tattle and jeaousy. Odds and ends of scraps of information have caused them to be held under detention orders. Some have been held, although they are not actually members of the British Union of Fascists, although it is claimed that they were. There are two cases to which I wish particularly to refer. The chief reason for the detention of one man, who was apparently fired by Sir Oswald Mosley three years prior to the outbreak of war, was that he discouraged investment in War Loan. That seems to me to be a very frivolous point of view. I myself might be said to have done this because I think it is much more patriotic for people to put their money on deposit in the bank, and allow the Chancellor to borrow at 1 per cent., instead of the Chancellor paying 3 per cent, on War Loan. I cannot see why that is held to be a good and just reason for detaining a man.
In the other case a man was detained on 18th June and was accused of being a member of the British Union. He never had been a member of the Union at all, and was released after some time without having received the findings of the Advisory Committee. In connection with the British Union, I. must say a word about the chief protagonist of that organisation, Sir Oswald Mosley. I think it should be said although I am not a sympathiser in any way with their point of view or their activities. He appeared before the Advisory Committee, and the Committee invited his solicitors to help them in discovering whether or not any foreign money was coming in to the organisation of the British Union, After a most exhaustive search, in which all the banks joined, the Committee and solicitors had to admit that no foreign money of any kind whatsoever was coming into that organisation. Sir Oswald Mosley appeared before the Advisory Committee, which had Mr. Norman Birkett in the chair, and conducted his own case because lawyers are not allowed to appear for their clients. After 16 hours' cross-examination Mr. Norman Birkett indulged in this conversation with Sir Oswald Mosley, which I think ought to be quoted and put on record, whatever one's feelings. Sir Oswald Mosley said to Mr. Norman Birkett:
There are other varieties of detainees, one in particular with whom I have the greatest sympathy. One hundred and fifty gallant ex-Service men of the last war signed a petition demanding to be tried by a proper court as they had nothing whatever to be ashamed of. Then there is another category, which might apply to anybody. They are members of a military intelligence department, one of whom seems to be held because he knew too much about the irregular dealings in oil in a particular part of Europe, and another a member of the Right Club, which, so far as my investigation shows, has never met. The objects of this club are stated to be to fight Communism and the money racket. I, personally, have done, and shall continue to do, both, and I am almost coming to the conclusion that I ought to be inside with the rest of them! One person is in because she has declared for a negotiated peace. Well, I still do that. I do not think it is possible at the moment, but I do not see anything fundamentally wrong in taking the view that a negotiated peace is better than a victorious peace.
There are instances of serving officers being held and kept waiting for months before knowing the reasons for their detention. Ii submit to. the House that the Regulations have been administered—it may be that changes have taken place in the past few weeks—in a way that the House never intended; All sorts of people have been detained for months without appearing before the Advisory Committee, and the Home Secretary said the other, day that this was due to delays on account of bombing. That is all very well; but these people were detained in June, and my information is that the bombing which disturbed the Committee's deliberations fell in September. Therefore, that does not seem to be sufficient excuse. It is ridiculous to say that other accommodation cannot be found for half-a-dozen lawyers. There are a thousand and one places, and I understand now that the Committee is suitably accommodated in a modern and convenient hotel.
There is the case of a lady who was detained on 4th June, appeared before the Advisory Committee in July, protested on 3rd October, and was still waiting on 15th November—still detained—despite a letter from the Chairman of the Advisory Committee, who said he hoped for a quick decision in her case. Then there is another case, that of a well-known author and writer, who appeared before the Committee on 4th November, but who, up till 28th October, had never been given any reasons for his detention. Again, a lady was detained on 23rd May—she is the daughter of a gallant soldier of the last war—and appeared before the Committee on 21st July. The Committee refused her release, but on 20th August she re-appealed. Up to 18th November she, too, had not been given any reasons for her continued detention. In this case the lady's original detention order complained of her favouring a negotiated peace. Then there is the case of a man who, I think I am right in saying, after months of detention, was suddenly released towards the end; of last month. An astonishing fact is that his release order was signed on 9th October, but that he was not released until some five or six weeks later. It is outrageous that anybody should be detained: so long after the order for his release.
The other main objection which I have to the treatment of these, people is that they are treated more like criminals than like prisoners on remand. We have been assured again and again by the present Home Secretary's predecessor that these people are detained only for preventive and not for punitive reasons. I want to give the House some examples, which I believe to be true, of the conditions in. one or two of the detention places. In the case, of Holloway, there is much evidence from several women that this sort of thing, is happening. Mothers are allowed out with their babies for only, two hours a day. It is nonsense that this should be so. The aliens detained in Holloway are allowed out all day when the weather is fine, but British women, whether they have babies or not, are, allowed out for only two hours. Whether it is right or not, it is said that these people find that they have spies put in with them. In this connection, I have a name which I should be prepared to give the Home Secretary. There are complaints of the attitude of the female gaoler at Holloway, and if one-quarter of the complaints are true, she must be a veritable sadistic dragon. At one time, those detained were locked up during air raids, and only when they protested did the Governor open the doors. Whether my right hon. Friend accepts the statement or not, it is a fact that the detained women were without washing water for nearly a week and that there were only two w. cs. for 170 women. As far as my information goes, there were no air-raid, shelters there up to the end of September. So much for the women. Nobody can say that this is the way to treat people who are detained for preventive rather than punitive reasons.
I want now to refer to the conditions at Ham Common in order again to show that the Regulations have been used in a way that was not intended. I have been assured by the Under-Secretary that these people go to Ham Common only for purposes of investigation and that it is not a military camp, but as there is a military guard and a military commandant there, ordinary people would regard that camp as a, military camp. The Under-Secretary said it was impossible for these people to avoid solitary confinement because it was not wanted to mix aliens there with British prisoners. I can understand that point of view, but surely it would not be beyond the wit of any commandant to arrange for a separation so that these people would not be detained under punitive conditions in solitary confinement for 22 hours a day. I know that my hon. Friend caught me out because I said people had been detained there for more than a month. I have knowledge of three cases in which a man was for 25 days in solitary confinement, another man 15 days in solitary confinement, and another one 30 days. The last case was not even considered for three weeks. The man wag in solitary confinement for three weeks before appearing before the, committee of inquiry, and he submitted that he was not then in a proper state to appear before any inquiry or to explain the various things, with which they confronted him, without any previous notice. Nor should I have been.
There is a case of a, man who was detained on 10th August, and went straight to Ham Common, where he was in solitary, confinement for 22 hours a day for one week, and was not even allowed to talk during the exercise period. The reason he was detained was that at one time he was a member of the British Union, but he only joined it after the last war because he thought it was the only organisation fighting for peace. After the first interrogation by the military, he was told to go back to solitary confinement for a week and think of a better explanation than the one he had already given concerning the various things with which he was confronted.
There is then a variety of punitive methods to which I will refer. Wives are not allowed to meet their husbands. I understand that alien wives are allowed to meet alien husbands, and that arrangements are being made for their being accommodated together. According to the Under-Secretary, there are only 12 British married couples detained under these Regulations. I cannot see any reason why these people should not be allowed at least the same privileges as aliens. It seems to me that somebody is not trying. Apparently persons who are detained are deprived of their personal effects, such as watches, toothbrushes and even tooth paste. That seems to me to be an astonishing thing. Until recently, Roman Catholics were not allowed to go to confession without there being a warder in the room. That is a prison regulation. The result was that none of them went to the sacrament and none was allowed the consolation of his religion. I admit that matter was put right as soon as I brought it to the notice of the Home Secretary, but it ought never to have been the case.
I understand that until recently these people were prevented—or certainly were not aware that they were permitted to do so—from writing to Members of Parliament. Whatever the right hon. Gentleman may say, I feel that must have been so, for otherwise why should there suddenly have been this appalling spate of letters from internment camps, which I am sure most hon. Members are receiving? Certainly, the letters were stopped from various camps, the names of which. I will give to the right hon. Gentleman. I want to refer to one particularly hard case of a man who is a Justice of the Peace. It has now been decided, because his continued detention is recommended for reasons which he does not admit, that his name must be removed from the roll of Justices of the. Peace. What is more likely to damage a man's, character permanently, than that somebody who sits in another place should see fit to take action of that sort?
The chief thing I want to emphasise is that the legal representatives, of these people are not allowed to see their, clients alone. The astonishing thing is that in. correspondence between the Home Office and a firm of solicitors the only reason, that is given for this is that it is a prison regulation. I understood from the Under-Secretary that it was for other reasons, but the reason I have just given has been put in writing by the Home Office. This would seem to reflect on the whole procedure. It seems that these people have been handed over to be controlled by persons who are accustomed to dealing with criminals and who have no other machinery which would enable decent treatment to be meted out.
I do not understand from what document the hon. Member is quoting in this matter, because the prison regulation is that detained persons may see ther legal advisers in the sight but not in the hearing of a warder. The hon. Member's complaint is that persons detained under Regulation 18 ( b ) have to conduct their interviews with their legal representatives both in the sight of and in the hearing of a warder. Obviously, that cannot be justified as being based on a prison regulation. It is based upon security considerations which are special to these Regulation 18 ( b ) cases.
I am glad the hon. Gentleman has given that explanation. I must have misread the letter. After I saw him, I received the correspondence, and it seemed to me to give an entirely different version from that which he has now given. I accept his explanation, but whether friends of mine outside who better legal authorities than I am will do so, is an entirely different matter. What I wish to emphasise is that people are very often hustled before the Advisory Committee. I know of one case of a man who had not finished shaving and who was hustled to the Committee without being warned that he was to appear that day and without having any chance of consulting a. lawyer. That is most unfair. The average person gets the jitters before appearing before any such tribunal. I should like to quote from an address on "The Vocation of an Advocate" which was delivered in Ottawa in 1931 toy the present Lord Chancellor, who said: September that his appeal had not been received—they lost it. He reappealed again on the 25th September and was then sent to Ham Common on the 29th. He had ten days' "solitary"—was interrogated by the military authorities, and returned to Brixton on 12th October. His detention order was revoked on 4th November. It is no consolation for these unfortunate people to say that mistakes have been made.
I must repeat the case of a man who was detained on 3rd June, and appeared before an advisory committee some time in July this year. The release order was signed 9th October, but he was not released until 16th November. He was detained 38 days after the release order was signed. I have another case of a lady who was detained on 5th July. No particular reason was given, although she was reputed to belong to the Right Club, which has never met. She was released unconditionally on 23rd August without going before any committee, and she still has not the faintest idea why she was shut up. It appears, if my information is correct, that there has also been discrimination. There is the case of a lady in Norfolk, whose name is well known to the Home Secretary, who was a notorious Fascist. She happens also to be a relation of a high member of the peerage. I do not want her shut up, and I have no doubt that she is perfectly honourable, but three ordinary working men in her district who were her supporters were detained in June, and, as far as I know, they are there to this day. Unfortunately one of them has the appearance of Hermann Goering, and the chief reason for his arrest seems to be that old ladies in his neighbourhood every time they walked into his shop shouted "Heil Hermann!" If we are going to lock anyone up, we should first see to it that the leaders are locked up. I have another case of a lady of high position who took on a secretary, whose name I have supplied to the Home Secretary. This good woman was never a member of any organisation but she was the secretary for a short time to this particular lady. I think it is the case that her employer has since been locked up. And she is still detained, without appearance before the Advisory Committee.
Then there are what I may call certain frivolous cases to which I should like to refer. I have a case of a man who was detained merely because he was engaged to a German. We cannot control our affections, but if every Englishman who fell in love with a German before the war is to be locked up, it seems to me to display a very unsatisfactory sense of intelligence on the part of the Home Office. I have with me, but I will not read them to the House, a series of love letters which passed between them. Unless there is some extraordinary code in love letters known to the Home Secretary and not to me, I fail to trace anything in these letters which can be found treasonable. They were written, in fact, from one neutral country to another, and that the girl was a German appears to be the reason why this man was detained. Then there is the case of a lady, with two small children, who was locked up for five months. Here is an extraordinary example of the great wit and intelligence of our Military Intelligence Department. Apparently they did what they do to most people—they searched the house of this good lady. I would like to ask any hon. Member in this House which of their houses would stand searching. I am quite sure mine would not. I might be accused of practically anything if the Home Secretary searched my house. One receives such a lot of papers that one cannot be expected to answer for every single document found on one's premises or in connection with one's business. These great geniuses of intelligence discovered a diary in this lady's house, and on a particular day in 1938 they found the entry: "M.49. Destroy British Queen. Instal Italian Queen." It took them six weeks to discover that this lady kept bees, and that this entry referred to a method of improving the breed of bees by using Italian stock. I have a further case of a lady who was detained with a six-weeks-old baby. I have written to the Home Secretary about this case. She left four young children outside, she was detained on 2nd June and appeared before the Advisory Committee on 29th October. She happened to have been a wife of a man who left the British Union three years ago, and, as far as she knows, that is her only default. It would seem a frivolous reason for her continued detention.
One hesitates to criticise any Department in a wholesale fashion, but it does seem to me that the Home Office have adopted a cold fish indifference to these people. Something is being done about aliens, but only because such a fuss was created about the matter in this House. I suggest that the Home Office should adopt a similar procedure and appoint someone to examine the whole question of dealing with detainees under Regulation 18 (B). People should be allowed legal representation before the Advisory Committee, even if the lawyers may not receive the complete dossier available to the committee. Secondly, if as a result of their appearance their detention is recommended, they should be told the reason and given an opportunity of replying. If the Home Secretary will not agree to that, what policy does he propose to follow? If their continued detention is recommended and they are not to be told why they are detained, does the Home Secretary propose, if the war goes on until 1945, that .they shall remain in gaol without knowing the specific reasons for which they are detained? It seems to me to be very unjust, and contrary to all our ideas of justice. Cannot persons, pending their appearance before an Advisory Committee, be let out on bail if suitable assurances be provided. Such a procedure would be in accordance with the principles of British justice. Then punitive detention should cease. The Parliamentary Secretary said that he had inspected camps and that I had not. That is quite true, but has he spent 24 hours there? I know some of the humbug which goes on in factory inspections. The only way to find out what is going on is to visit the premises unexpectedly; otherwise when an officer comes down and all the paraphernalia of officialdom is there everything is lovely.
Fifthly, I ask that arrangements should be made for wives and husbands to be detained together. If this is allowed to aliens detained under these Regulations, I cannot see why the same privilige should not be extended to British detainees, especially having regard to the fact they are so few in number. I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to say, at an interview I had with him, that the difficulty of making arrangements was that they did not want discrimination, and that some of the men were in York, some in Ascot, and others in Brixton, while the women were in Holloway. There are only 12 of them and it would be easy to arrange some central place where, at least, they could meet if they cannot be incarcerated together.
I would remind the Home Secretary of the summing-up of the Lord Chief Justice in the proceedings on 22nd October. He very carefully pointed out that he did not want anything he said to be taken as a criticism of the Home Secretary, though he went on to criticise the right hon. Gentleman very thoroughly. He said that in these cases of the liberty of the subject, it was essential that all possible expedition should be used, and he took the opportunity of putting on record the views that the courts would always take, that when powers of that sort were used there should be due regard to the fact that the liberty of the subject was involved. Although the Law Officer applied for costs, he was not successful. I ask that the Home Secretary should give this matter immediate attention. It has caused an appalling amount of pain and suffering to an enormous number of people who, in many cases, are not guilty at all. In some cases there are wives left destitute. I ask for a review of the whole proceedings so that injustice, where it exists, may be brought down to a minimum.
Although I do not necessarily associate myself with everything, or indeed anything, that my hon. Friend has said, I should like to pay a tribute to his courage in bringing this matter forward. It is, essentially, a matter which should be discussed by Parliament. I do not intend on this occasion to raise the question of principle that is involved. There is a very important question of principle involved, to which I do not ask for an answer—I do not think it is in the public interest to give an answer at this moment—but it will have to be raised at some time or other possibly in Secret Session, or on the Estimates of my right hon. Friend's Department. I put it forward now, not for an answer, but rather to give notice that I shall at some future time raise it. These persons to whom my hon. Friend has referred belong to a very subversive, and to some extent dangerous, organisation, and from that point of view any action against them which, in the Home Secretary's opinion, it is necessary to take, can be justified. But the point to which I shall refer at some future date is this. Why is it that only one such organisation has been dealt with? Is there nothing in the writings of the "Daily Worker"? Is there nothing in the Communist organisation which is subversive and contrary to the public interest and which under the interpretation of this Order is a criminal offence? We have to remember that, when the war is over, there will be returned to us our civil liberties—there will be a revolution, presumably, if it is not done—and you will have members of one party free to go about the country and ask, Why was not a Member for one of the divisions of Scotland, a Communist, detained? It will be a matter of public controversy which will divide the country that action was taken against Fascists, which was not taken against Communists.
I have risen in order to support two or three points made by my hon. Friend. We all appreciate what the Home Secretary has done in the last fortnight or so in connection with this matter. An hon. Friend behind me and I put questions to him, and the answers that we received were very satisfactory. I do not blame the Lord President of the Council for what has been done. It is unfair to draw a distinction between the two administrations, I hope there will really be an acceleration in hearing the appeals.
It is intolerable that people should be kept 14 weeks in prison without an opportunity of appealing. The hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay) was in prison for 13 weeks. I hope my right hon. Friend will consider whether it is not possible to afford these people some sort of legal assistance. There are objections to allowing any lawyer who chooses to come along to represent persons in this category, but would it not be possible to arrange for a sort of panel, possibly of prominent King's Counsel, who would be prepared to give their services for nothing? It was represented to us by the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern that it was asking a great deal of a man who had been confined for 14 weeks suddenly to come before a tribunal, however fair it might be, and be expected to put his case. I understand that Sir Oswald Mosley was before the tribunal for seven or eight hours on end.
The second point is the question of the place of detention. I know from my experience with the Council of Aliens how pressed the Government are for room, and that aliens had to be interned in ordinary prisons. I imagine there has been rather an increase in the criminal population owing to the outbreaks of looting, but it seems to me that if possible these men should be put into a separate place of detention and not with ordinary prisoners. That is very important. Then I hope my right hon. Friend will consider sympathetically the case of husbands and wives with children who are interned. There are many cases, for instance Sir Oswald and Lady Mosley, where husband and wife are both interned and taken away from their children. It may be necessary in the public interest, but it is rather hard on the children. Lastly, there is a question of prison discipline. Is it not possible to arrange for these detinues to have rather longer periods of exercise? I have received a lot of letters from them—I do not know why; some have even telegraphed to me—and they all complain of the short period allowed for exercise. I understand that there has sometimes been an actual failure of light owing to bombing by the enemy. It is terrible to be shut up with no light not knowing what is going to happen next. I see present several of my colleagues of the Council of Aliens. We can all say, without conceit, that the existence of that body has been invaluable in dealing with the question of detained aliens. We have received every sympathy from the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessor. They have both taken particular pains to go into our recommendations and consider whether they can be accepted or not.
Is it not possible to form some strong body, or give power to some existing body, to do in respect of British detenues what has been done in the case of aliens? I can see no reason for treating foreigners more favourably than British people. There seems rather a tendency to pay more attention to the grievances of interned aliens than to the grievances of interned British people. Both should be treated on the same basis of fairness and impartiality. Without making any charge against the administration of the Home Office, I can say that Members who are colleagues of mine on the Council of Aliens will agree that we have been instrumental in bringing about a considerable improvement in administration, which would not have been brought about without the existence of that body. Is it not possible to do the same thing for British citizens who are detained? It would greatly relieve their feelings if they knew that there was someone to whom they could appeal in the same way as the detained aliens can appeal to the Council of Aliens. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman, with his great administrative knowledge and experience, will consider sympathetically any constructive suggestion that can be made to alleviate the situation.
rose —
On a point of Order. An important matter has been raised, it is an early hour, and I cannot help feeling that it would be for the convenience of the House if those Members who wish to speak could be allowed to do so before the right hon. Gentleman replies.
I am entirely at the service of the House. I thought that it might perhaps be convenient if I spoke now and if my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary wound up later. If, however, the House prefers that I should wind up, I am at their service.
I did not know that we were to have the advantage of hearing both Ministers. I would point out, however, that, much as we would like to have both Ministers, there will be little time left for other Members if they both speak.
Further, on that point of Order—
There was no point of Order. If hon. Members rise to speak, the one I call is in possession of the House. If the House chooses to show that they wish to hear somebody else and the right hon. Gentleman gives way, well and good, but the Debate must proceed in the ordinary way. It is not brought to an end by the head of a Department intervening.
May I thank my right horn. Friend the Home Secretary for allowing me to speak first? I was anxious to take part in the Debate and I wish I had been in time to hear the speech of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes). Some time ago I asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he did not consider the time had arrived when Regulation 18 ( b ) should be to some extent modified. The answer I got was in the negative. On that, I gave notice that I would take the first opportunity to raise this matter on the Floor of the House. I have alays felt that the House, in passing Regulation 18 ( b ), even taking into account the serious circumstances in which it was passed—at a time of acute crisis, a very threatening time—did so without that due consideration which it would have received in more normal circumstances. I do not believe that if Members as a whole had realised all the implications of the Regulation they would have sanctioned it. It seems to me that under the changed conditions of to-day the time has certainly come when the Regulation could be and should be modified. The Government and the Home Office have had plenty of time to make adequate inquiries concerning all those people about whom they were in doubt and to round up those people whom they thought they might have to round up. They are no longer in the difficult position in which they were at that time.
I would like to suggest certain desirable modifications. First, there should be a definite time limit—and I suggest four weeks as a fair limit—in which everybody arrested under this Regulation, should come before the Advisory Committee. It is unreasonable and unnecessary that a longer delay should occur. Even after they have come before the Advisory Committee the Home Secretary takes a considerable time in some cases to make up his mind what he will do after the Committee have made their decision. I am not surprised at that. In fact, I sometimes wonder whether in this matter the Home Secretary's Department has not, to some extent, become a bottleneck in dealing with these cases. I cannot understand why that should be necessary. It should be possible to appoint the necessary number of committees, if several are needed, to deal with these cases, and it must surely be possible to appoint people in whom the Home Secretary has complete confidence. When a person arrested under this Regulation has gone before the Advisory Committee and the committee have recommended his release, that should be sufficient without any further inquiries. If the Home Secretary cannot set up a committee or committees in whom he has sufficient confidence to decide that point, the whole position becomes impossible.
The Home Secretary cannot possibly deal individually with all these cases. If he is to assume the responsibility of going into the detailed particulars of every case, he can only do it by deputising the work to somebody else. I do hot see much point in his doing that when he has already the Advisory Committee, which one has every reason to believe is a suitable and trustworthy body to do the work. I suggest that when the committee have carefully considered a case and reported that a man can safely be released, the consent of the Home Secretary should be automatic. On the other hand, if the Advisory Committee, having considered a case, decide that the man should be kept in custody, that case should go to the Home Secretary for his individual attention and consent for retaining the man in custody. I have before raised the case of an individual who is a constituent of mine though I have never met him. He was kept in custody a long time before he came before the Advisory Committee. He did so three or four weeks ago and I asked the Home Secretary what his decision was. He told me that he was seeking further information and could not give an answer. I have put the Question down again. I do not know, I cannot know, whether that man is a suitable person for release or not, but his continued detention, without a decision, is causing a great deal of pain to friends and relations, and I cannot understand why such long delay is necessary after he has appeared before the Advisory Committee. I hope the matter will be reconsidered and that, before long, the Home Secretary will introduce some modification of this Regulation.
I want to deal with the future and not with the past. My experience with these cases and my correspondence have caused me to give a good deal of attention to the administrative problem and how the position can be improved. I have been trying to find out what is the administrative difficulty which stands in the way of these untried prisoners being dealt with more quickly, whether they are British prisoners detained under Regulation 18B or friendly aliens detained under other Defence Regulations, and as far as I can make out it is not, as the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir I. Albery) said, a case of the Home Secretary's Department being the bottle-neck, because there are three bottle-necks. The first bottle-neck is in the security Services. Before the Committee can consider a case they must, I gather, have representations and evidence furnished by the security Services, upon whose evidence, presumably, the man or woman was shut up. Before either the Norman Birkett Committee, which deals with cases under 18B, or the newly-appointed Lindley Committee, dealing with friendly aliens, can consider a case, they have to work out their evidence. I gather that is the biggest bottle-neck.
Although the Advisory Committee may not be able to proceed very quickly, because the numbers coming before them are large, and the tribunal is a relatively small one, the other two Committees could proceed more quickly if the mysterious M.I.5 and the C.I.D. would bring their evidence sooner. Is it not possible to strengthen the machinery on the security side, and prepare the cases more quickly? Here, I am particularly concerned with the position of those whose cases come before the Lindley Committee, which only held its second meeting yesterday, I understand. I do not see why the security Services should not have been preparing during the past six months the cases of the 400 to 600 persons which are to come before that Committee. Whatever reply the Home Secretary gives to-day, it will not prove to be very satisfactory in practice, unless he gives his attention to this point, and I hope that the Under-Secretary will pass it on to him.
The second bottle-neck is found in the work of the Advisory Committee. We have heard from the hon. Member who started this discussion how many of the people detained under 18B have had to wait for months before they came before that hard working Committee, the Norman Birkett Committee, which sits, I think, in three or four sections. How much worse will the position be for the Lindley Committee, which starts with the residuum of 400 or 600 cases? How long will it be before that committee of four—excellent persons but only four—get through those 400 or 600 cases? We are told there will be a considerable diminution in the number, because the Home Secretary has said that he does not mean to send to the committee any cases which he feels that he can release on a prima facie examination of the facts. If he could have released them on such a prima facie examination, why has he not done it? That examination ought to have taken place long ago. We have had hundreds of men shut up in prison for periods varying from two to six months, and they have not had even a formal acknowledgment of their appeals to the Home Secretary. Many of them are men who have hardly a friend in this country. Many of them are still in the uniforms in which they fought for the Allied forces in Poland and France. Think of the misery of those men, not knowing when their cases will be heard.
I know that many of the cases will present difficulties, because there is very little evidence that can be obtained. The men ought to be given every possible opportunity of collecting what evidence they can from their consuls or British friends in this country. Very few can correspond with their friends at home, because those friends are in enemy-occupied countries. They ought to have the greatest possible assistance in preparing their cases. Here I would add my words to the plea made by the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) who asked whether they could be furnished with legal aid. If it is difficult for a British Fascist, who has plenty of friends in this country and who speaks our language, to present his case well, how much more difficult must it be for a poor wretch who was suddenly rounded up and stuck into prison just after he had landed here from Dunkirk as a refugee from Belgium and who speaks only very broken English? Such people ought to have free legal aid when they require it. If not, they should be allowed to write out their own petition, because in that way they would, perhaps, reveal their personalities better, and then they ought to have legal aid in going through those petitions in order that it may be seen whether important facts which might make all the difference to them have not been omitted. The third bottle-neck lies in the fact that the Home Secretary has to consider the reports of the Advisory Committee. I have every sympathy with the position of the right hon. Gentleman, because this is a difficult matter and he cannot hurry unduly, but when we reflect that there are these three bottle-necks we must agree that the matter is one which deserves prompt attention, because very great injustice is being done to many men and women.
We owe a debt of gratitude to my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) for raising this question. It has not been very much ventilated in the House, though hon. Members have aired the grievances of individuals in their constituencies. It seems to have been forgotten that in Scotland aliens have been undergoing the same hardships and meeting with the same injustice as in other parts of the country. I recognise that an advance has been made by the setting-up of the two tribunals in Scotland, and I trust that that may accelerate the consideration of some of the cases which Scottish Members have sent to the Home Office. I know of men who have lived 40 years in this country and have sons serving in the British Army who have been deported abroad, the family being broken up. There has been a growing demand in this House for the release of certain types of interned persons. Nothing is more heartbreaking for a person who has already suffered at Hitler's hands or under Fascism, who has endured tortures in his native land and has come here looking for somewhere to rest and to live in peace, than to find his home smashed up by the British Government. The Home Office work under very great difficulties I know. In the first instance their object was to protect the interests of this nation. That was quite right, and I have always agreed that the inequalities and injustices which occurred at the beginning could not, perhaps, have been avoided, but now steps ought to be taken to review cases and to ease the position as speedily as possible
There has been another campaign of propaganda in this House, and I hesitate to ally myself with it in view of the past associations of some of those who have been interned. I refer to those persons who were members of the British Union of Fascists. I have been interested to notice that many of the Members who are now creating such an agitation for the release of these people were, themselves, very friendly with our enemies in the past.I would only ask the Government to be extremely careful with regard to this particular type of case. We should remember what has happened in other countries where "leniency" has been the password in connection with this type of organisation. There is no doubt at all that the leaders of this organisation and many of its members who have been interned had the interests of our enemies more at heart than the interests of this country. Their speeches, their attempts at private interviews—to some of these I drew attention, and was thanked by the last Home Secretary for doing so—their attempts to undermine institutions in this country and to set up an organisation, the sympathy they created and the support they gained among thousands of wealthy people with influence in this country, ought to be factors causing the Minister to walk very warily with regard to this type of interned person. We must all have as our paramount thought the well-being of this nation and the complete prevention of any attempt at sabotage, or undermining of our effort.
I, therefore, desire to strike this note of warning. There are in this House now a considerable number of Members, all belonging to one side, who indicated in speeches not long before the war their sympathy for Fascist ideals. They indicated, both outside and inside this House, that they thought that Hitler's system of society was not so very bad after all. I have cited cases to the Home Office. There is, for instance, my namesake Colonel Davidson, there are the Domvilles and the Test. These people were going about the country telling their employés what a great nation Germany was. The Mosleys and the Mitfords were actively engaged in undermining the democracy of this country. Their daily lives were spent in little secret meetings urging and gaining support for the establishment of a system of society which this nation abhors. Such was their activity before they were interned, and I say to the Home Secretary—I hope the Under-Secretary will convey my words to his right hon. Friend—that not all of us feel very easy in our minds about a general release of persons of that type. I trust that these cases will be very carefully considered and that the Minister will walk warily, because it will be bad for any man who takes executive action to release in this country a force that would immediately set to work again, to re-establish their old connections and work against the democracy of which we think so much.
So, I ask on the one hand for a speedy consideration of the cases of those who, to the knowledge of the Home Office, have suffered at the hands of Fascist aggression, while, at the same time, advocating the greatest care in approaching the question of the release of those known to Members of this House who by speech, tract, pamphlet, newspaper and wealth have worked against the interest of this country and of this Government, and have advocated support for a Germany with which we are now at war. I do not believe that the Mosleys, the Mitfords, the Domvilles and those other people have changed their ideas. I do not believe for one minute that, if released, they would accept the position we are in, and take a stand. They still adhere to their idea that the democracy of this country is rotten, and that this Parliament is a useless institution. These people are, therefore, dangerous. They are just as dangerous as the Quislings in Norway and the Fascists in Holland and in every other country which Germany has secured. We have dealt with our Fifth Column in this country, and I would ask the Home Secretary to be very careful not to create the necessity of having to deal with the same Fifth Column again.
I wish to intervene in this Debate for a few minutes only, because there is a good deal, in what was said just now by the hon. Member who has just sat down, with which I am sure everyone in this House will agree. I know the view that was expressed by the hon. Gentleman who initiated this Debate to-day, and I believe I am right in saying that many Members of this House are very uneasy about the operation of this particular provision, inevitable though it may be in present circumstances. We have to face the position that it is, in fact, a complete suspension of that one provision of Magna Charta which everyone of us has been so proud to speak about during the whole of his political and public life. It gives to the Home Secretary, whoever he may be, the complete right of detaining any person that he thinks ought to be detained, without assigning any charge against that person, without telling him what precisely he has to meet. That is a tremendous power to give to any Minister of the Crown. I hope that it is not necessary for me to say that I am not speaking of this Home Secretary or of any other Home Secretary in particular. We have to rely upon the good sense, the good taste, and the sense of justice of the Home Secretary of the day. That is quite a novel institution in this country. The only justice we rely upon in this country ordinarily is the justice of one of His Majesty's judges in charge of a court.
Having said that—and I feel the position very strongly—I ask, what is the alternative? I can conceive many cases on which the Home Secretary of the day may have before him a mass of material, not sufficient to carry that onus of proof which has to be carried in order to get a conviction in a criminal court. Except for this Regulation, he would be powerless. He says, "I am satisfied that here is a man who, at large in this day of war, is a national danger, because of his associations or because of his feelings or because of his actions or speeches. But I have not got that volume of proof which I must have in order to get a conviction in a criminal court, and I am powerless." That situation in war-time, I think, would be a far greater danger than the Regulation about which so many of us feel so uneasy to-day. I have thought over this Regulation on many occasions: I have discussed it with friends of mine, both inside this House and outside; and I confess that I dislike it very much, because I realise what it does. It almost seems to deny justice, while we are fighting a war for freedom. That is a terrible thing to have to face. But I am bound to say that national considerations must override everything and I fail to see any alternative more fitting in the circumstances. I think that the Home Secretary of the day must have power—we must rely upon him to exercise that power properly and justly —to order the detention of any man or woman, without specifying a particular charge, if he has reason to think that that man or woman, whether a British subject or not, would be a danger, if left in freedom. I am very uneasy about this: it is cutting away one of those principles which we prize so much; but I fail to see any alternative which will safeguard the national security which transcends everything. Some such Regulation as this must be the law of the laid in the present moment of difficulty.
I have complete confidence in the tribunal which acts as a court of appeal against unjust detention. I wish I could have the same confidence in what I will term the administration of the appeals that are heard. I have no personal knowledge of this; very few of us have: we have to rely on second-hand or third-hand information. I do not think it is possible to put any real indictment into black and white: I do not think that the public interest would permit of the interned person being given a complete copy of the case for the prosecution; but I would like to be assured that some arrangement will be made so that any person detained by order of the Home Secretary under this provision is given at the first available moment some real abstract of the matters that are alleged against him. There is no charge; there can be no indictment. As I say it maybe very dangerous to give to the detained person the whole of the circumstances which the Home Secretary has before him, but give him, 1 beg of you, some kind of summary of the allegations made against him, by reason of which, it is said, it is a danger to allow him to be at large.
There may be good reason, but I myself fail to see it at the moment, why this person should not have complete right of legal representation. If there is some good reason against it—and there may be because t have not got, and cannot expect to have, the information which the Home Secretary has—is it too much to ask that the person who is detained should have complete and accessible representation before the tribunal that is charged with an issue which is fundamental? The liberty of the subject is the one thing that this House and this country stands for at all costs. Is it too much to ask that the person should have legal representation and should be given the fullest accessibility—not everything, of course—to the material there is stored against him? Cannot he have a speedy hearing before the tribunal? If one or two tribunals do not suffice, let us have three, four, five or six. Do not deny justice. Do not let it he said that while we are fighting for liberty, we, ourselves, are denying justice. Is it too much to say that if a man is detained he should have at the earliest possible moment some precis—not inconsistent with the public interest which must prevail—of the matters alleged against him? Let him have access to Solicitors and, if necessary, let us have a dozen tribunals I would like to think that if a tribunal recommends to the Home Secretary that the detention of a man should be continued, some idea of the reasons why that detention should be continued should be given to him.
I confess that at one time—if I may use the expression—I myself flirted with the view that it would he a good thing to give any such detained person the right of appeal from this tribunal to the Court of Criminal Appeal. As one who has had the privilege for many years of knowing the work and practice of the Court of Criminal Appeal and having tremendous faith and belief in the safety and impartiality of that Court, I would like to see it as the almost ultimate tribunal to consider every case. I do, of course, realise the difficulties there must be in matters of this nature where there is no concrete charge, where there is ho recorded evidence and no cross-examination and where matters can he brought almost from the blue and put to the tribunal against the detained man. Is it too much to ask that there should be some appeal? It must not be thought for a moment that I am casting a single reflection or criticism either upon the bona fides or the constitution of the tribunal which hears these cases and advises the Home Secretary. We have to think in these days that there is no such thing as human infallibility. The Court of Appeal and appeals to the House of Lords form part of the established legal system of the country, because we all make mistakes in good faith. I wish there could be some court of appeal to which the man who is detained in these peculiar circumstances might restate his case. I am sure that the present Home Secretary and the previous Home Secretary, and in fact almost every Home Secretary, have desired to do at all times that which is just and proper. The present Home Secretary will want to do that which is just, consistent only with proper safeguards for the national security, and I am certain that in that desire the whole House is with him. I would like to think that some consideration would be given whereby not only justice is done but is apparently done.
I have intervened in this Debate with some misgiving. I agree with the hon. Gentleman who immediately preceded me that some such regulation is fundamentally essential in the public interest, but the administration of it may he improved upon. I hope that the House realises—anS I would also wish that the country would realise it—that this liberty-loving community has found it necessary in war-time to take a step which is no less than the suspension of the biggest provision of Magna Charta. We have done it with our eyes open and with, I think, the complete good will and approval of the whole community as an essential war effort. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) said the other day, in the course of a very able and forceful speech, that it may be necessary at times to assent to the incidents of a dictatorship temporarily in order to prevent the possibility of a dictatorship permanently. I endorse those sentiments. They face the position which the situation necessitates.
To secure liberty for ever, to secure that liberty remains unchallenged for our country, it may be necessary to suspend some of our most revered principles of liberty for the time being, but I would if I may, commend to the Home Secretary that, while we realise that has to be done, he should give such safeguards in the administration of this new proposition—for it is a new proposition—as will not only ensure that justice is done, but that justice seems to be done in the exercise of the power which he has, and which in these days I, for one, think he must have, in the all-pervading necessity of national security.
I wish to express my appreciation of the very eloquent speech of the hon. and learned Member for East Leicester (Mr. Lyons) and to take up one point which he made in that speech. My hon. and learned Friend referred to the question of legal representation, and I feel that here is a case where our procedure with regard to the interned person is exceptionally hard and also completely out of harmony with the old traditions of British law and justice. Up to now an accused person could always see his solicitor in private, but now, under the present Regulations, he is not allowed to do so, and whatever plausible arguments may be used in defence of that fact, I think it is the first time in modern British history that such a procedure has been adopted.
The second point with regard to legal help which I would like to emphasise is that the interned individual, when he comes before the Advisory Committee, is not allowed to have legal advice. Under the ancient laws of this country, treason was regarded as such a vile crime that legal advice was not allowed to anyone accused of treason, but in 1695, in the reign of William III, the Treason Act was passed, allowing legal advice to those accused of treason. Here an individual is accused of being under suspicion of some kind or other of treasonable act. He may have been in prison under extremely hard conditions for 12 or 16 weeks; and then, suddenly, he appears before the Advisory Committee. Surely, it is in harmony with all our traditions that he should have legal advice. I will quote the present Lord Chancellor on that point: said by the hon. Member who is now Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Economic Warfare: The whole tone of that Debate was that we were abolishing Habeas Corpus and that we were breaking Magna Charta because the emergency was grave and we had no time for discussion. Even then we protested vigorously, and the then Home Secretary gave us definite assurances. He said that cases would come before the Advisory Committee with very little delay and later on that it was hoped that delay in considering representations would be reduced to a minimum. These pledges were given by the then Home Secretary. Have those pledges been carried out? Surely it is inconsistent with that declaration to detain a man for 12 or 16 weeks. He used these words:
The House will recall that last week I made a statement as to the steps the Government proposed to take, in development of previous arrangements, for dealing with Regulation 18B cases. I thought that statement met with the general approval of the House as being the right and proper thing to do in the circumstances. It went so well that I was a little surprised that to-day there should be a Debate so soon afterward, of a somewhat aggressive character, in its initial stages at any rate. But I make no complaint of that. I am very fond of the House of Commons. It is a very human place, and it is very human on all this business of security. I remember the speech to which the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus) referred. To make quotations from Ministers' speeches before they were Ministers is a very pleasant occupation and perfectly legitimate. No one takes offence. The Member who makes them smiles, and the Minister smiles, or does his best to smile, and it goes very well. No doubt the Lord President of the Council remembers the speech as well, but what were the circumstances? This was a year ago, in the quiet and gentle days.
That is wrong.
It was in October, 1939.
I meant that it was wrong to say that we were then having a quiet time. There was no noise from the point of view of attack, but there was grave anxiety.
Plenty of anxiety, but the spirit of the nation was a little on the quiet side because of the Maginot Line philosophy, and, looking back on it, that was a great curse. These Regulations came in and hon. Members with whom I was associated and I took the view that they went too far in the circumstances of that time, and we were critical. It was in those circumstances that I made that speech. Subsequently the Lord President, who was then Home Secretary, had consultations with representative Members of the House, agreement was reached, and new Regulations were brought in which met with general approval. It was all a House of Commons business, done amicably and wih the Lord President being exceedingly helpful and friendly. This Regulation 18b business emerges almost parallel with the problem of the aliens about whom we had a discussion last week. It was discussed in the days of 1939 when the policy was more liberal than in these days. Then there came the crisis of May and the collapse of France. All experience then was mixed up with refugees, fifth columnists, and enemy agents here and there, and my right hon. Friend came along and said, "The powers we agreed last autumn are not good enough for this situation."
It is all very well to be highly critical to-day. We ought to remember the frame of mind in which we were at that time—and rightly. Therefore, I supported my right hon. Friend when he wanted his more stringent Regulations. So did the Labour party. So, broadly, did the whole House. We knew we were giving him exceptional powers which, if he were foolish and injudicious, he could use improperly and spitefully. We did not believe that would happen, and it has not happened that either he or I have used these powers improperly or spitefully. We had seen what had happened in Holland, Belgium and Norway, and we knew that we had our own Quisling in this country ready to play his part. I do not want to get indignant, but I am a little fed up with hon. Members to-day forgetting the real necessity for the step that was taken then. I say to my hon Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) that the state of mind in which he made his speech to-day, that classical liberalism—I use the word not with a capital letter but in the ordinary philosophical sense—which maintains that there must be this, that and the other right maintained in all circumstances—will not win a war. I want to tell him frankly that if you run a war in that way you will lose it. If he tries to run a social revolution in that way he will lose it. When will my hon. Friend learn from the lesson of Germany? What is the lesson of Nazi Germany? It is that the Republican politicians of that time were too soft—not that they were too hard—in applying in what was a revolutionary situation classical liberal doctrines and so on. I m sure that my hon. Friend would have dealt most properly, with full legal advice and procedure, with Herr Hitler if he had been in Germany at that time.
My right hon. Friend will bear me out that when I opened the Debate I did not complain about the Regulations but about the administration I admitted that they were necessary in the circumstances.
That is true, but when it came to administration it was true also that he wanted to import into that administration the maximum of normal legal procedure. That has been the general argument of certain Members of the House. I say that this is totally to misunderstand the situation with which my right hon. Friend was faced and with which I am faced at this moment.
I come back to the history of Germany, and I beg the House not to forget it. I particularly beg my hon. Friend not to forget it. The German Government of that time respected very fully these principles which are now urged upon me, and the result was that Herr Hitler was dealt with under a very gentle law. He was put into prison under very gentle circumstances. He also was not treated as a criminal prisoner. He was given rights of access, and other persons were given rights of access to him. He was allowed to do almost as he liked. In a few months he was out. If I had been running the German Government at that time that man would never have got out. He would never have survived. He was an enemy of the State and he ought to have been shot. If he had been shot it would have been a very fine thing for Germany and for the world. In situations of crisis and of war, when there are possibilities of that kind and of Fifth Column elements, that is the point of view I would take. I am not sure that these elements were all of one kind. A good many of them did not belong to the working class and a good many of them were up above. In situations of war, and situations of revolution, if you are to be soft and preserve meticulously liberal doctrines and principles which may be, and are, ordinarily right and defensible, and if that is the line Ministers are to follow, I would only say to hon. Members: Take my advice, do not be a Minister in those circumstances, because it will be exceedingly dangerous for the security of the State or the success of the cause.
Surely every speaker approved of the Government forbidding Fascist uniforms, suppressing the British Union of Fascists' organisation and imprisoning without trial on suspicion. We have approved that, and that is strong government, which Germany never had.
I know that, and am fully aware of it, but hon. Members are boggling at the consequences of that action. I do not boggle at anything. If I have to take action in defence of the security of State, I will take it. The security of the State in time of war comes before anything. If hon. Members swallow an exceptional regulation they must swallow some of the exceptional procedure that follows from it. You cannot have one without the other. The hon. Member for Ipswich wants the best of both worlds. He put up a case. I watched hon. Members while he was speaking, and I know that he was not without his effectiveness. I hope hon. Members will forgive me when I say that I have experience of the correspondence of my hon. Friend, both in this office and the last office which I held. The letters were always welcome, charming and interesting, but—I hope he will forgive me—I do not necessarily assent to the points of fact that he made in his statement. After a somewhat intensive experience of this correspondence I am bound to say, with every respect and indeed every affection, for my hon. Friend, that fact is not his strong point.
Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly quote fact or case?
There is only one that occurs to me at the moment, but I am sure that on notice I could find quite a number. The lavatories at Holloway Jail are a case in point in which he put a Question on the Order Paper without being reasonably sure that he would get the answer that he expected. He went wrong on that point. I can only say that I cannot deal with the point, for reasons which he very kindly explained. I only want to safeguard myself against any assumption that I accept his facts, because my experience is that my hon. Friend is not always meticulously accurate on questions of fact. Nevertheless, that will not prevent me from looking into these allegations with every fairness and consideration. I have no doubt—I do not know, but I assume that it is quite legitimate—that the legal adviser to the British Union of Fascists has supplied to my hon. Friend and other people concerned all those facts, and I will look into them. If there is anything which is improper or wrong I will certainly do my best to deal with it.
The point has arisen about legal defence, assistance, or aid at the hearing before the advisory committee. I think there has been a general assumption that when these rules were elaborated my right hon. Friend provided that in no circumstances would a lawyer appear. In fact, he did not do so. What he did provide was that if the advisory committee came to the conclusion that, in the circumstances of any case there would be advantage to the proceedings by the bringing out of facts, and that this would result from legal assistance being available, that tribunal or committed had the right to say that such legal assistance could be provided. That was so. It is still so. It is not the Home Secretary who settles whether that legal assistance shall be available or not, but the committee outside.
This, point is very important. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to, tell us—I do not to say this in a sarcastic sense—in how many cases these persons have been allowed to have legal assistance. I do not want, to anticipate his answer, but I see no earthly reason why the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Midlothian (Captain Ramsay) was not allowed legal assistance, if the situation is as my right hon. Friend describes.
I do not want to particularise about any given case. Everybody must be treated as equal in these matters. I agree that there has been a limited number of cases in which that facility has been agreed to by the tribunal, a very few cases. If you ask my opinion—
Have there been any cases?
My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary tells me that, there has been a limited number of cases where the committee has heard a solicitor or barrister on points of law or of evidence, but quite a limited number.
I am sorry, but I feel I must press this point, because I think that my hon. Friend has quite inadvertently given a wrong impression to the House. Has there been any case where a man has been allowed to have a legal representative in the ordinary sense of the term, not to decide points of law, but to represent his case?
I do not go beyond what my hon. Friend advises me and what I have just said. In the ordinary sense of legal advocacy as in the ordinary court of law, the answer is that the committee has not so far permitted that to happen I make no point about that, because what we have got is so strictly limited in decision. Let us consider whether this is something to be encouraged by the Committe, because it is for them to decide and not for me, First I think there is some misunderstanding about, the committee. The committee that hears the applicant, is not a prosecuting committee, not a committee which sits to cross-examine the detained person with a view to finding him guilty. It is not in the prosecuting frame of mind at all. On many of these committees there is a competent lawyer, who presides, and I can assure the House, from my examination of the reports which have come to me, that the chairman and the committee regard it as a large part of their duty to be helpful to the detained person, to help him to bring out his case if they think he has not presented it as wall as he might have done.
After having read a considerable number of these cases I would say that, on the average, if these committees have any bias at all—and I am not accusing them of bias—it is rather in favour of the detained person than, against him. That is the atmosphere of these committees, and many Fascists have said that they could not have wished anything fairer or more considerate than the treatment they have had, and I do not think it is wrong for me to say that that was testified to by the leader of the British Union himself. There was a reference to the fact that he was before the committee for seven hours. That is not necessarily the fault of the committee. I am certain that he bore his share of responsibility for that.
To act on the assumpton that the detained person must need a skilled advocate because—I do not say this is assumed, but at rather lies behind the argument—he has an advocate against him, as would be the case in an ordinary court of law, is wrong. He has nobody against him. He has a fair-minded committee, which is objectively trying the case, and in my experience if they have any bias at all it is rather in favour of the detained person. Then there is this other consideration. If lawyers were to appear for the applicant would it be agreed that, as a lawyer appears for one side as defender, a lawyer should appear for the other side as prosecutor? That is what would have to be considered, because security must be defended as well as the detained person. But what would the consequence be? There has been much complaint about delay in these also, last week, in regard to the aliens, and we have already taken action with a view to speeding matters up. I put it to the House: if the lawyers were given a free hand on these tribunals, if each applicant had a lawyer and—I do not wish to prejudice the matter—the other side had a lawyer too, shall we say as counsel for security, does the House think that that would speed things up? It would make things perhaps five or even 10 times slower, and the delays as a consequence would be much more considerable than they are.
I understand that the difficulty in regard to legal representation is that there are certain things in connection with these investigations which cannot be made public, and which could not therefore he made available to the representing lawyer. The situation is not quite parallel.
I am sorry. I am not on that point now.
The point is. that these people are not capable of representing themselves and ought to have the assistance of a lawyer even if he does, not have access to the full dossier.
They are allowed consultations with their legal advisers in preparation for the case, but cannot have legal representation in the ordinary sense before the tribunal without the special consent of the latter.
They are not told of the evidence.
They do get seven days' notice.
Of the evidence?
No, not of all the evidence. My hon. Friend is still mixing Defence Regulation 18B with classical Liberalism. Regulation 18B is not classical Liberalism at all; it is war legislation and State security. It is no use mixing the two things. I assure my hon. Friend, that if, in his mixed state of mind, he is willing to apply his classical Liberalism to run the whole show and bring it to a disastrous conclusion, he can do so, hut I will not. Here we are not concerned with normal legal procedure; that went when the House of Commons approved this Regulation. We knew what we were doing, and we did it, because in the critical days of war, with possible Fifth Columnists about and with all the experience of Holland, Belgium and Norway, we knew that normal legal procedure simply would not fit the situation. Having so decided, let us accept the consequences of what we did, and not baulk at it a few month afterwards.
I come to the point of procedure. There has been a great deal of criticism of my right hon, Friend my predecessor, both on this matter and on the question of aliens. I had dealings on various matters with my right, hon. Friend a long time before I went to the Home Office, and before I ever dreamed of going to the Home Office. You may agree with him on this point or disagree with him, tout you must admit that my right hon. Friend is essentially a Liberal-minded, man. He did all he could to take care of the liberty of the subject, within those, limitations which I have stated to the House; and anybody who suggests that he is tyrannically Mack-hearted and that he likes to put people under lock and key does not know the man. It is only fair that I should say that from my knowledge of the Department, and after having seen many of the papers on which his signature occurs. There is danger of confusion of mind over the normal legal procedure in the normal courts of law and this procedure, which is, so to speak, quasi-judicial. This procedure, I honestly think, suits the case better, and is more likely to lead to broad justice in the end than the ordinary legal procedure would be—though, I have the greatest respect for British lawyers and for British legal procedure. If it be the case that the tribunals are to say that everybody who wants a lawyer can have one, or if I am to say that that must be so, it must be remembered that the result may be that the well-to-do will easily get legal advocacy while the poor will not. I remember what my hon. Friend said about some lady—this is where his Liberalism lapsed. He thought that I should put her under lock and key. He almost urged me to put him under lock and key. I am not likely to do that at present, though I do not know about the future.
Has the light hon. Gentleman ignored the possibility of providing free legal assistance for poor persons?
We are getting on. It is now argued that I should provide legal assistance for Sir Oswald if he wants it. (Hon. Members: "For poor persons.") Or for a poor follower of Sir Oswald. I really do not see the point of it.
Does my right hon. Friend not grasp the point, that if a man is a member of the British Union of Fascists under Mosley, was opposed to the constitution of this country, and strutted about in a black blouse and trousers, we ought now to provide him with legal assistance out of public funds?
I am glad that my hon. Friend has put the argument so plainly. I do not see why I should do it.
I, of course, appreciate the sarcasm of my hon, Friend the Member for Maryhill (Mr. Davidson); but what is the difference betwen the case of the ordinary criminal and, the case of a Fascist or a Communist or anybody else? The ordinary criminal has the advantage of the Poor. Persons Act.
I thought that the burden of the argument so far had been that such a man was not an ordinary criminal, and should not be treated as one.
He should not be worse treated.
Is my hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth (Mr. Strauss) pleading for this policy of free legal assistance for members of the British Union?
As I have been challenged, I say that certainly these people who are suspected, but who are not convicted of any offence, should not be treated worse than any criminal.
I am bound to say that we make progress as we go along. This claim is as my hon. Friend the Member for Maryhill has put it, perfectly properly and accurately, not sarcastically at all. I do not see why in this class of case the State should go to the expense of providing legal assistance for members of the British Union, or, indeed, for any other detained persons. I do not think it necessary or expedient, and it would introduce into the whole machine an element of delay leading to a much more serious situation than that existing at the present time.
The right hon. Gentleman represents the case as referring to the members of the British Union only. But we are not concerned with the organisation of which they are members. There are all sorts of people. I have given cases of people who have been detained because they are members of the British Union and others who are not, and they ace not allowed legal representation.
I have given my answer to cover all of them. I think that my hon. Friend will agree that most of the cases he quoted were those of members of the British Union—
Certainly.
in which he was pleading on their behalf in this House.
Oh, no.
The hon. Member was pleading for consideration in cases that he thought were grievously treated.
Not because they were Fascists.
I did not say so. I said because they were members of the British Union. I have given the answer that, whether they are members of the British Union or not, I do not think it would be right or expedient that the State should provide legal assistance in these cases. While the tribunals are free to permit legal assistance in given cases, I think they are right mot to encourage it because it would lead to delay.
In the opinion of most Members of the House the right hon. Gentleman is not quite aware of the seriousness of the ruling he is laying down. He is playing right into the hands of men like Mr. Joseph Kennedy, who says that democracy has ceased to exist in this country. I really urge the Home Secretary to think over the implications of what he is saying rather than come to a decision just now.
I can only say that I expressed the view and I adhere to it absolutely and firmly, and I am afraid I am not to be moved from it by considerations of Mr. Joseph Kennedy.
Or the House?
The House certainly has its own way of doing things. I do not know how long the hon. Member has been here, but I expressed the view quite strongly that this is not a case of the committee prosecuting an interned person but of reviewing his case. The question of defence does not arise, but if the tribunal thinks that in a given case the person concerned should have an opportunity of fortifying himself with certain legal assistance, it can give it but I am not going to issue any instruction that it should do so generally. I think it is inappropriate to this class of person and it would jam the machine and make it slower than it is. There comes the point about delay, and I admit freely that there has been delay, for some of which I am deliberately responsible. This was a case where there was an organisation which we had reason to believe, and I think the House generally believed, was actually or potentially dangerous to the State. We apprehended that in the case of invasion by Nazi Germany these people might actively assist the enemy.
I say this in a most friendly way, but I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not fall into the error into, which some of my hon. Friends behind seem to have fallen. These Regulations are not intended per se to deal with the Fascists, but with all persons of subversive action. He continues to talk as though he brought in the Regulations to deal with Fascists.
In the first place, this Regulation has to deal with persons of that class.
With all subversive people, including Communists if necessary.
All subversive people of hostile origin or association. If I have referred to the Fascists, it is because the vast majority of these people are Fascists. It is also the case that all the people dealt with under Regulation 18B have been dealt with because there is prima facie reason to believe or to apprehend that in certain circumstances they may be a danger to the State.
Therefore, there was something of a general sweep, not entire, at that time by my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council, which I think was right. As was the case with enemy aliens, they were picked up pretty extensively. It will, I think, be recognised by the House that you can pick up on a general basis, but you cannot wisely let out on a general basis. Each case has to be considered. I made an announcement last week about the new method of dealing with the miscellaneous remaining body of enemy aliens. The only thing I am nervous about this week is that some hon. Members may expect those who have been detained to come out within a week or a fortnight. When a decision of policy, that there shall be a review, has been reached there are all sorts of things to do—constitute tribunals, find people, settle procedure and consult the security services. Therefore, to suggest that a new policy adopted last week will result in releases in a fortnight is, I am sure the House will recognise, not reasonable.
Some delay inevitably had to take place in order that the machine could effectively function both ways. Then there was a bit of additional delay for which I accept my full share of responsibility which, perhaps, is greater than that of my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council, although I think he will accept his share as well. Dealing with Regulation 18B is a very tricky business. If you rush it too much, you let out people who ought not to be let out and come to be a danger to the State. We wanted—and I certainly wanted—to get a general conclusion of a fair number of specimen cases which had been considered by reading their reports and getting the right state of mind on the various classes of cases with which one was dealing. I think that if one started too quickly on releases, one might administratively get a wrong balance of the whole business. It was desirable to get a conclusion before one settled in one's own mind the kind of principle on which to act. There were many exceedingly difficult cases in which it was not at all easy to make up one's mind whether the person was potentially dangerous or not. To that extent I accept my full share of responsibility for the delay. Apart from that, there have been delays common to the alien services, but cases are coming up rapidly now, and I have already dealt with many of them with reasonable speed.
A number of points of detail were raised in the Debate, and I will investigate them or cause them to be investigated at the Home Office. The matter of reasons for detention was raised. Of course, the Order made by the Secretary of State authorising detention does tell the person concerned very briefly the nature of the Regulation under which he is apprehended, although it does not tell him the particular charges; but before he goes to the tribunal, he is given particulars of the reasons which have led to his apprehension. Broadly speaking, I am inclined to think that procedure is fair.
A number of comments have been made on the accommodation in the prisons and camps. My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) continued the discussion about the lavatories at Holloway. He said that, at any rate at a certain time, things were not what he thought they ought to be. I am told that there was a Certain happening there which caused trouble and that the ladies who were prisoners there were asked whether they would assist the machine by carrying water upstairs in order to do the necessary flushing. They were not exactly co-operative, and would not do so. I am bound to say that if women, no matter to what class of the community they belong, faced with a difficult situation of that kind, will not co-operate with the authorities in the interests of reasonable sanitation by carrying water upstairs, I think they must suffer the consequences of non-co-operation. I do not intend to get all "het up" about this. There has been rather an attitude of non-co-operation in that quarter in various directions. If that be so, they cannot make a grievance of the consequences which inevitably follow to them.
Will my right hon. Friend answer the question which I put to him? Is it not possible to set up some body comparable, to the Council on aliens which would have the same duties in respect of these interned persons—not merely Fascists, but any persons, including members of this House, who may be interned under Regulation 18B?
I do not say I will not consider that suggestion, but I think there are objections to it. It will be understood, of course, as the Noble Lord knows better than I do, that the Council on aliens is purely an advisory body. It can inquire and make recommendations, and it is for the Secretary of State to accept them or otherwise; but every consideration is, quite properly, given to any recommendations which the Council may make. I rather doubt whether that would be appropriate in these cases, for they are so much more directly security cases. We all know that a substantial proportion of the aliens are friendly to us, and, although the consideration of security does arise in a number of aliens cases, those cases are not predominantly and almost exclusively security cases, as in this instance, where it is a question of selected individuals.
Will my right hon. Friend deal with the question of married detainees? Ought they not to have the same privileges as married aliens who are interned?
I understand that my hon. Friend's point is whether we could not arrange for there to be visits.
Or for married couples to be detained together.
I do not know about that. These are security cases. But I think it is not unreasonable to suggest that there should be occasions when husbands and wives can meet. I can assure my hon. Friend that I will inquire into it and see if anything can be done.
Does that apply to cases where both have been detained?
Yes, Sir. It does apply to those cases, of which there are a number. In conclusion I will only add this. I am sure that the House will assent that it is right that we should have had this discussion. I welcome it, although I dare say the enemy's machine will make use of it. But that should not worry us. Everyone will agree, whether he is a critic of the administration or not, that at any rate this is a matter in which there is no comparison between out methods and the practices of the enemy facing this .country. It is interesting that many of those people we have under detention under Regulation 1SB wore defenders and advocates of the political system against which we are now fighting; they defended the concentration camps, the tortures and Cruelties against Jews, Socialists, Liberals and others. Perhaps there can be no more dramatic contrast than that those people who have defended the Nazi regime and its consequences to-day have had their considerations before the House. Such a step would be utterly impossible under Nazi domination. I hope against hope that the moral of that will not be lost by former members of the British Fascist Union or by anyone else. It is a dramatic comparison, and I think we can say that although we have departed from the true principles of liberal faith, in some respects, since the war began, we are determined to restore them as and when it becomes practical and expedient to do so. Nevertheless, we can be proud that in the midst of this struggle and attacks by the enemy from the air and elsewhere, that the British House of Commons can spare a day for the discussion of the rights, liberties, convenience and happiness of even the least popular of His Majesty's subject.
I agree with the premises upon which my right hon. Friend based his statement, as I think every hon. Member agrees. However, there are three short points I should like to bring to his notice which were not dealt with in his speech. First, there is the question of the consideration under which legal assistance is given. As my right hon. Friend knows, it has always been given in the presence of warders. It is a little embarrassing for the persons concerned and there have been cases where warders have intervened in the discussions. Will my right hon. Friend look into this point and see whether it is not possible for solicitors to discuss with the internee his defence without having a warder present
I have had that point put to me and I have looked into it. This is the difficulty. In these Regulation 18B cases some of the people may be something more than Fascists—there are people suspected of espionage, and in cases where there is contact with the out-side world, we have to be exceedingly careful, because there may be transmission of information. That is the reason why we feel we must be careful in that respect.
It seems to me unnecessary and embarrassing to the person detained, as well as to his legal adviser to have the warder there. Why could not the warder be outside the cell? My right hon. Friend referred to information being conveyed to a person in regard to the grounds on which he is being detained a few days before the hearing. I respectfully submit that that m not so. The information conveyed is very scanty and is no more than a restatement of Regulation 18B. I would ask my right hon. Friend to look into some of these cases, and satisfy himself that information is really being given to detained persons on this subject. I have a case in mind in which an individual was detained on grounds of hostile association. He did not know the persons with whom it was alleged he had been associating, or the nature of his hostile association.
It being the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Question again proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—( Mr. Boulton. )
I would ask my right hon. friend to see for himself whether he is satisfied that the person detained has the information given to him which would enable him to rebut a charge, say, of hostile association. I think he will be satisfied that the person charged does not know what he has to meet until he comes into the room. My third point is that there has been undue delay, apart from the cases which my right hon. Friend has given, and which one understands. I know of a case in which a person has been detained for seven mouths. He has had his hearing before the Advisory Committee, and I entirely confirm what my right hon. Friend said about the nature of the hearings before the committee. They are perfectly fair, and, apart from the fact that the person detained does not know what he has to meet before he comes into the room, there is nothing to complain of in the way the committee deals with the cases. The detained person is not treated as an accused person. They really try to-get the truth, and ail the information they possibly can. In one case that I know of, where it was not possible for the detained person to give the information at the time, the hearing was postponed to enable him to procure any further information which might be of assistance. Nevertheless, if more information could be given to the detained person before the hearing, so that he can discuss it with his legal adviser, one cause of criticism would be removed. On the point of delays, in this particular case, although the hearing took place some time ago, there is still no decision. I doubt whether ft is a case such as he described, falling within any particular class. I do not think the man is alleged to be a Fascist. There may be many reasons which make it difficult for my right hon. Friend to come to a decision, but seven months is a very long time to be in doubt whether a person is properly detained or not.
The Home Secretary in several passages in his speech paid a high tribute to the ideals and spirit of Liberalism and liberty. I should like to utter two or three sentences from the point of view of the principle with which the word, whether spelt with a big or little L, is associated. We are all agreed that we want to go back at the earliest date to our well-tried British institutions and our methods of justice, but we also feel that in the present circumstances of national peril the present procedure which has been adopted is right and is inevitable. There is no dispute about that. I hope my right hon. Friend realises that there is a strong feeling that sufficient safeguards have not been taken in connection with that procedure. I will give an example arising out of a reply which he gave me last week. I asked him the number of subjects at present detained under the Regulation, the number who had been considered, and the number who had been in prison more than three months without their cases being considered. There are 1,250 detained, 1,000 have been before the tribunal, but there are 250 who have been in prison for at least three months and have had no opportunity of putting their cases before the tribunal. That is an abuse of the powers which we have given to the Home Secretary. I am sure that he desires to speed things up, and I hope he will be able to show us that he will either so stimulate the tribunals, or appointing still further tribunals, that he will be able to give us a return at no distant date that the number of persons who have been over three months without appearing before the tribunal will be very small. Until that is the case I feel that the House has a grievance against the Executive at the way in which these powers are being administered.
Is it not the case that, however much the tribunals are multiplied, it would not be of much use while cases are sent to them so slowly that a tribunal often sits only two hours instead of three because it has not sufficient cases to consider?
When the Home Secretary was speaking, he gave us an engaging and encouraging picture of what he would have done to Hitler if he had been head of the German Government. Much as we appreciate his services to the State here, we wish he had been there at that moment. Having announced how ruthlessly and, I think, rightly he would have dealt with him, I would like to put a question to him. If, after cutting off Hitler's head, there had been a newspaper in Germany which advocated what Hitler was doing and continued to do so, would he have taken any steps against it? I presume that if Hitler In been a Communist instead of being whatever he was, the same thing would apply. The Home Secretary says this is not a time for weakness or flabbiness, but there is a newspaper in this country advocating every possible sabotage of the war effort. Now that we have found the strong man in my right hon. Friend, I am sure the House would like to know what he would do in the hypothetical case I have mentioned.
Reference has been made to Liberalism and Conservatism. It is not considered that liberalism with a small "l" belongs to any particular party, but there is another word I would like to mention. That is "caution," which is often looked upon as a Conservative element. A great deal of caution is necessary on the part of the Government in present circumstances. A great responsibility lies on them, and they would deserve drastic criticism if they were not cautious in regard to interned people. Sympathy is the finest thing in the world, and we should be sorry if it were taken away from the character of the British people, but, at the same time, it is one of the most dangerous sentiments. Do not let sentiment run away—
Who has been sympathetic with these people?
I am speaking of sympathy as generally understood, and I say that while we have sympathy with these people, we must not do away with caution.
Who has sympathy with them?
I think we all have.
With the Fascists?
No, I am not speaking about the Fascists, but about the people who are interned, and if we deal with these people with sympathy—and we may have sympathy with them even though we think they have been wrong-headed—we must always remember that caution is also necessary, and that the Government would be condemned by the country if they did not act with caution.
Does the hon. Member suggest that caution should be exercised by the Government in enabling those 300 people to bring their cases before the Advisory Committee, because that is the only point which has been raised?
Most certainly I do, because if the case came forward before it was ready, it would be unfair to them as well as to other people.
Question, "That this House do now adjourn" put, and agreed to.