House of Commons
Wednesday, December 11, 1940
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]
King's Speech (Answer to Address)
The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN of the HOUSEHOLD (MAJOR SIR JAMES EDMONDSON) reported His Majesty's answer to the Address, as followeth:
I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I have opened the present Session of Parliament.
Aliens (Naturalisation)
Address for:
"Return showing (1) Particulars of all Aliens to whom Certificates of Naturalisation have been issued and whose Oaths of Allegiance have, during the year ended the 31st day of December, 1939, been registered at the Home Office; (2) Information as to any Aliens who have, during the same period, obtained Acts of Naturalisation from the Legislature; and (3) Particulars of cases in which Certificates of Naturalisation have been revoked during the same period (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper No. 165 of Session 1938–39)" ( Mr. Peake. )
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Tangier
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will state the. present position at Tangier, particularly with reference to the presence of Italian submarines and the assault on the British Legation by Italians; and what satisfaction has been obtained in the latter case?
As regards the general position at Tangier, there have been no further developments since my statement on 4th December. According to our information, repair work on the Italian submarines has been delayed and they are not at present in a seaworthy condition. The Spanish Government have stated that they will be given a further period to complete the repairs allowed under Articles 13 and 14 of the Hague Convention. The incident referred to in the last part of, the Question concerned the British Post Office and not His Majesty's Consulate-General. My Noble Friend is informed that instructions have been issued by the local Spanish authorities to deal with this case expeditiously and that the British judge should be kept fully informed of the proceedings.
Will my right hon. Friend say whether the British Government were given any opportunity of satisfying themselves that the submarines are not in a position to proceed to sea even though they cannot submerge?
I am satisfied that the sub-marines are not seaworthy, according to the information we have received.
Do the repairs which are authorised and justified include making the submarine ready to go underneath or only on the surface, for this is vitally important to us from the point of view of possible capture?
Under The Hague Convention the submarines have to be seaworthy. I am afraid I cannot go further than that.
To whom is entrusted the duty of saying definitely, one way or the other, that the submarines must leave?
I can assure the House that the whole of this question is at present under active discussion between His Majesty's Ambassador and the Spanish Government, and that when I have anything further to report I will put it before the House.
Will my hon. Friend make it plain to the Spanish Government that the whole question is viewed with the greatest anxiety by public opinion in this country?
Certainly. I would like to state that in most emphatic terms. I said so on the last occasion when I answered a Question in this House, and I say so again. The House may be assured that His Majesty's Ambassador has put the case in a very strong and definite light to the Spanish Government.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will call for information as to whether the Spanish authorities are erecting permanent fortifications at Tangier; and whether His Majesty's Government will insist that such work shall not be proceeded with?
My Noble Friend's information does not indicate that the Spanish authorities are erecting fortifications of a permanent nature at Tangier. His Majesty's Government are, however, watching the position closely, and the Spanish Government have been left in no doubt as to the importance which His Majesty's Government attach to this question.
Will the Government see to it that danger of a fortified naval base being created at the entrance to the Mediterranean will not be allowed to arise?
That is why I use the language in the latter part of my answer.
Will the Admiralty take action before the fortifications are erected?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether British vessels are prevented from entering the harbour at Tangier?
No reports have been received of British ships being prevented from entering the harbour at Tangier. As regards the general position at Tangier, there have been no further developments since my statement on 4th December.
China (Financial Assistance)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what further measures of support, particularly political, financial and economic, it is proposed to give to the Chinese Government?
The hon. Member will no doubt accept the answer which I gave yesterday as the reply to this Question.
Great Britain and Mexico
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement in regard to the announcement of the Foreign Minister of Mexico that that country would wel- come the resumption of friendly relations with Great Britain?
I have been unable to trace any such announcement as that to which the hon. Member refers. But I have seen a Press report of 4th December, according to which the new Mexican Foreign Minister stated that the Mexican Government are studying the question of renewing diplomatic relations with Great Britain.
Meanwhile, is any action being taken, or is my right hon. Friend waiting for action by the Mexican Government?
If this Press report is correct; it will be interesting to see the results of the deliberations of the Mexican Minister for Foreign Affairs.
Get the job settled.
Great Britain and Russia
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government, having considered the comments of M. Molotov and M. Vishinski on their three-point proposal, will make a further effort to bring about agreement?
The hon. Member may rest assured that His Majesty's Government have not let out of their sight the importance of reaching agreement with the Soviet Government.
Will my hon. Friend notice that, although my question is couched in diplomatic language, it is indeed a request that steps should be taken towards meeting the Russian position?
I do not know; I think our case must be considered as well. I trust that if both sides are given proper consideration, we shall reach a satisfactory agreement.
Foreign Research and Press Service
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction existing in certain sections of the Foreign Research and Press Service, of Chatham House, to which a Government subsidy has been granted; that the staff of the German section has resigned en bloc; whether he is satisfied that full co-operation with other Government Departments has been achieved and that no duplication of work is taking place; and what action is he taking in the matter?
When the head of the German section of the Foreign Research and Press Service recently left to take up another appointment, seven of the other members of the section, which consisted of nine persons in all in addition to the head, sent in their resignation. Three of these seven resignations have since been withdrawn, and the remaining places have been filled. The work of the section is proceeding normally. The Director and other members of the Foreign Research and Press Service who are in contact with more than twenty Government Departments are always on the watch to maintain co-operation and avoid duplication. I can assure the hon. Member that the work of the Foreign Research and Press Service is continuously being adjusted to meet the changing needs of the war.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that in some cases four different Government Departments are studying copies of the foreign Press and that four separate copies have to be imported into this country for that purpose, and is not this a ridiculous piece of duplication or quadruplication?
It is not quite as simple as that, but the importance of not duplicating the work of examining the foreign Press is ever present to the mind of my Noble Friend. Special inquiries have been made into this and other questions as a result, partly, of the Question which the hon. Member put on the Order Paper.
What is the point of taking in four separate copies? Surely the work should be centralised in one Department and not done four times over. May I send my right hon. Friend particulars of the case I have in mind, so that he can study it further?
Certainly, because the object of the special inquiries we have made and of the adjustments made from time to time is to avoid duplication. If my hon. Friend can assist us in that respect, we shall be much obliged.
Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that this service gives valuable results?
Yes, Sir. All the inquiries we have made reveal that good work is being done by the Foreign Research and Press Service in helping the Government's war effort.
Russia (British Subject's Claim)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, with regard to his letter of the 12th June, 1939, informing the hon. Member for Brighton that further representations were made to the Soviet Government on Mr. Joseph Martin's behalf in March, 1923, whether, seeing that those representations were made owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the Soviet Government's reply to the representations of September, 1922, he will state the terms of the Soviet Government's reply to such further representations made in March, 1923, by His Majesty's agent in Moscow with a view to securing compensation in settlement of Mr. Martin's claim for wrongful imprisonment and personal injuries resulting in blindness and other disabilities?
As my hon. Friend was told in reply to a Question on 19th June last, Mr. Martin was officially informed on 27th March, 1923, that His Majesty's Government had failed to secure any satisfaction from the Soviet Government in his case and that it was not intended to take up the case again with the Soviet Government at that stage. No further representations were in fact made, and, if my hon. Friend will refer to the terms of my letter to him of 12th June, 1939, he will find that it contains no mention of any representations made in March, 1923.
March, 1923, was the date. I asked my right hon. Friend if he could give me particulars of the reply from the Soviet Government to His Majesty's representative in Moscow in the second part of March of that year. That is all I want—a straightforward, plain reply.
I have already informed my hon. Friend, in many plain replies, that we have failed to obtain satisfaction from the Soviet Government in this regrettable case, and we are not prepared to take up that case again, owing to the investigations we have made. The point is that we must obtain satisfaction if we can, and we do not think this a case in which we are likely to get it.
Will my right hon. Friend say in what way Mr. Martin's case differs from those of Mrs. Stan Harding and Mrs. Davidson, both of whom where given adequate compensation at the time?
It was decided by the then Secretary of State, at that date, not to submit this case on a level with the other cases, and I regret therefore that nothing further can be done.
Surely the sins of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at that time should not be visited upon this man?
Albania
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is able to give the House any information on the form of Government to be set up in Albania as a result of the Italian withdrawal from a considerable part of the country?
No, Sir.
Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the importance of introducing in Albania a form of Government acceptable to the Albanian people?
Have the Government had notice of a declaration by the Prime Minister of Greece that Greece is fighting to liberate Albania from the Fascist regime?
Yes, we have had notice of that.
America (Air Mail Service)
asked the Postmaster. General whether he is aware that air mail letters to and from America are now taking a considerable time, sometimes up to four weeks, and that letters often arrive some time after the duplicates have been sent by ordinary mail; and will he either take steps to expedite this service, or advise the public not to use it?
I am aware that during the past month the time taken to transmit letters by air between this country and North America has increased considerably, and that some of the letters have taken longer in transmission than if they had been sent by ordinary surface mails. The delay is due to the irregular operation of the air services concerned and to other causes outside my control. If there is no improvement in the future, the question of stopping the service will certainly be considered.
Is there likely to be any early improvement in the services?
Yes, Sir. Most of the causes of the delay are not of a permanent character, and We hope that the difficulties will be surmounted.
Bombed Buildings
Reconstruction
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings what is his policy with regard to the reconstruction or rebuilding of bombed buildings at the present time?
So far as houses are concerned, the main responsibility rests with local authorities. But in those cases where the Ministry of Works and Buildings is supplementing the efforts of local authorities in this direction, the policy is to do first-aid repairs in order to render the houses fit for occupation, and later, when opportunity offers, to carry out repairs and reinstatement of a more permanent nature. Where, however, a house was so damaged as to be incapable of reinstatement, extensive reconstruction or complete rebuilding would only be allowed if necessary for the housing of essential war workers. The same considerations apply to other types of building, both those for which the Ministry of Works and Buildings is directly responsible and also private concerns engaged on important war output.
Is the Department considering the possibility of clearing some of the muck away?
That does not arise out of this Question.
Ground Rents and Mortgages
asked the Attorney-General whether he is aware of the hardship now being experienced by many people who have had their leasehold houses demolished by enemy action and are now being faced with a demand for the payment of ground rent; and does he propose to take any action in this matter?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Southwark (Mr. Naylor) of which I am sending him a copy.
Do I take it from that answer that the ground landlords are to be the only section of the community who are perfectly protected from loss by enemy action?
No, Sir; what I said in my answer was that the ground rent took many forms, that the matter was under consideration, and that if the hon. Member would send me the particular class of case which he had in mind, I would see that it was considered.
Will the Attorney-General be good enough to have that information printed in the Official Report so that we can all see what it means?
asked the Attorney-General whether the Government will take steps to protect owners of premises, destroyed by enemy action, from legal proceedings for the payment of interest due on mortgages?
asked the Attorney-General whether he has considered the question of mortgages on property destroyed by enemy action; and whether he can make any statement on the subject?
I am not able to make any statement on this subject. Mortgages on property take many different forms and are raised for different purposes, sometimes unconnected with the property itself. The question is however under consideration.
While thanking the Attorney-General for that reply, will he also consider how very hard it is upon people, very often people of small means, who are perhaps threatened with legal proceedings or bankruptcy because their houses have been destroyed and they cannot pay the mortgage?
I will certainly consider that, but, on the other hand, people who are actually financially embarrassed as a result of war conditions have protection under the War Emergency Powers Act. In other cases, where they are able to pay. there is no reason why they should not continue to pay and honour the debt. The whole matter is a difficult one to deal with, but it is under consideration.
Questions
Fishing Industry, Brighton
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the present position with regard to the unemployed row-boat fishermen of Brighton, on whose behalf application was made in October for permission to fish; and who is responsible for the delay?
In the short time available, I have been unable to get detailed information. I have, however, just heard that satisfactory arrangements have now been made, and will come into force to-day. I will communicate with my hon Friend as soon as possible.
It has been a long time— two months.
Colonial Exports to Japan
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what major exports useful for the purpose of war are being exported by the Colonies to Japan at the present time?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply made by the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs to his Question yesterday. The position in the Colonies is substantially the same as in the Dominions.
Will the Minister note that while this answer in the meantime pacifies me, it does not satisfy me?
Palestine (Loos of S.S. "Patria)."
asked the Under-Secretary of State for tile Colonies whether any more of the missing from the "Patria" have been recovered; whether the ship can be raised and repaired; and whether the survivors are still in Athlit Camp at our expense or are being employed to produce something?
The High Commissioner reports that the number of dead, as ascertained so far, is 55, leaving 198 persons unaccounted for, the majority of whom probably escaped during the rescue operations following the explosion. As regards the second part of the Question, the High Commissioner states that the "Patria" could probably be raised and repaired. Preliminary salvage work is being undertaken in so far as the available equipment allows. As regards the third part of the Question, the survivors are being maintained at the expense of the Palestine Government at Athlit Camp, where it is not practicable to provide them with productive work.
How many of the 55 were women and children?
I cannot say without notice.
Was this a Rumanian, Jewish, or British owned ship?
I could not be quite certain. I think it was British. If my hon. and gallant Friend puts down a question, I will answer it.
West Indies (Sugar Crop)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is the intention of the Government to acquire the full output of the 1941–42 West Indies sugar crop?
His Majesty's Government are not yet in a position to make a statement in regard to this matter.
When is my hon. Friend likely to be able to make a definite statement, in order that arrangements may be made with the West Indian Colonies, so that there shall not be a shortage of sugar in this country?
My hon. and gallant Friend will realise that it is not entirely a matter for the Colonial Office. Other Departments have to be consulted. Those consultations are proceeding.
Transport
Private Motor Vehicles (Curfew)
asked the Minister of Transport whether he will consider the imposition of a curfew on private motor vehicles, with a view to lessening the pedestrian death toll, conserving petrol, reducing unnecessary imports and allaying much public dissatisfaction?
No, Sir. I do not consider that the imposition of a curfew on private motor vehicles would be desirable.
Has the right hon. and gallant Gentleman any idea of the profound amount of public irritation caused by the spectacle of corpulent business men driving empty cars to and from their offices?
You cannot drive an empty car.
Will the fight hon. and gallant Gentleman take notice that the answer does not even pacify me?
I quite understand that.
Armed Forces (Railway Refreshment Facilities)
asked the Minister of Transport whether, as an experiment, he is willing to arrange with the railway restaurants or canteens for the quick supply on platforms, such as Crewe, Carlisle, Stirling, York, Newcastle and Edinburgh, of 6d. meal packets for soldiers on long-distance trains?
I am advised by the Railway Executive Committee that the railway companies do not think they would be able to supply for 6d. a meal packet which would be satisfactory. I propose, however, to see, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, whether the voluntary organisations, with their lower overhead costs, could undertake the provision of these packets.
Will the Minister ascertain from the railway companies whether they will be able to do it if we increase the subsidy to them by a few millions?
Is it not a fact that the voluntary organisations are willing to give every assistance they can to the troops, while the railway companies are unwilling to give any assistance at all?
No, Sir; that is far from true.
Is the Minister aware that the voluntary organisations report that the railway companies will not allow them to come outside their very small canteens and use trucks on the platform to do this work?
All these suggestions are being considered from the point of view of each station. We have just come to a very amicable solution of the Carlisle difficulty, and other troubles will, no doubt, be solved in the same way.
Visits to Evacuees. (Cheap Travel Facilities)
asked the Minister of Transport whether he has any proposals to make for the removal of anomalies in the issue of cheap tickets to persons visiting their families who are evacuated?
As my hon. Friend knows, I said last Wednesday that I hoped to be able in a week's time to make a statement about the arrangements governing special cheap trips to evacuees. It was actually found possible to make this statement last Thursday, in reply to Questions by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Bethnal Green (Mr. Chater), and a copy of this has been sent to my hon. Friend.
While the reply is otherwise satisfactory, is there any reason why the availability of these cheap tickets should be limited to three days? Why should they not be available for a week?
We have already extended the period from one day to two days, and now from two days to three days. That is as far as we have been asked to go up to the present. If my hon. Friend has any further pro- posals, I will look into them; but I cannot go further at present.
Is the Minister aware of the difficulty which working-class families have in going away in mid-week? Their only opportunity is at week-ends. Could arrangements not be made accordingly?
I think that that will be possible under the new arrangement. Under the old arrangement they were limited to certain days of the week; that is not so now.
Ministry of Information
North Midlands Regional Office (Staff)
asked the Minister of Information the names, salaries, present and previous employment, respectively, of those persons now employed at the North Midlands regional office of the Ministry, excluding clerical and messenger staff, who are of military age?
All the officers in question are above the age of reservation at present applicable to their employment.
What are the reservation ages?
I cannot go through a list of the ages for all sections of the staff.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the regional office referred to "in the Question, there are a barrister and an ice-rink manager, both of whom are about 30 years of age and both of whom are absolutely untrained for the positions they hold; and that yet they are exempted from military service, besides drawing very substantial salaries?
Regional Meetings
asked the Minister of In. formation whether he is aware of the difficulty of organising and giving adequate publicity to meetings organised by regional officers of the Ministry owing to the requirement to obtain the permission and approval of the Member of Parliament of the district in which the meeting is to take place to the names of the proposed speakers; and whether he will take steps to alter this situation.
Consultation with the sitting Member should not cause any considerable delay in the arrangements for holding a public meeting, nor interfere with the provision of adequate publicity. I therefore see no reason for altering the present Regulations.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consult his own regional information officers, and then, I think, he will find a very different story?
I frequently consult the regional information officers.
Is the Minister aware that in Scotland a Labour councillor and a Conservative speaker went to a particular constituency and were absolutely refused permission to speak in that constituency, after having been put on the list of Ministry of Information speakers; and is he taking any steps with regard to that case because of the disgust of his own officers?
I cannot deal with any particular case unless the hon. Member sends me the full details, and then I shall be very glad to do so.
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the widely held opinion that these meetings are more trouble than they are worth?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of us do not mind anybody coming into our constituencies, even the Lord Chancellor?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the constituency referred to is mine, and that I did object to both Tory and Labour speakers coming to that constituency; and is he also aware that I have held a lecture every Sunday evening, with an audience of 1,600 people present?
Musicians (Broadcast)
asked the Minister of Information whether it was on his instructions that the British Broadcasting Corporation refused to permit certain musicians to broadcast on account of their political opinions?
No, Sir.
In view of the damage done to our cause by such action as the refusal of permission to broadcast to Sir Hugh Roberton, will the right hon. Gentleman approach the B.B.C. in the matter, and particularly as he has expressed the view that there should be no victimisation on account of political opinions?
I exercise as little control as possible over the entertainment programme of the B.B.C., and I really cannot be held responsible.
Is the Minister aware that one Scottish musician has been barred from the B.B.C., that he leads a world-famous choir and that his political opinions are not shared by the choir at all?
In view of the unsatisfactory reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.
Official Communications (Public Broadcasts)
asked the Minister of Information whether the number of wireless licences issued shows that large numbers of families are still without receiving sets and therefore unable to listen to important Government announcements about food, ration cards, etc.; and whether he is prepared to create facilities for public broadcasts at suitable hours in halls, churches and factories, where those without sets may be within reach of Government information?
No, Sir. I do not think that public broadcasts of the kind suggested are called for, and I have no evidence that they would improve the present publicity for official announcements.
Is the Minister aware that in a recent broadcast by the Minister of Food in regard to the return of ration cards, it was found that large numbers of people had never heard the instructions and had no idea what was required?
That may be so, but I think the people who really wish to hear broadcasts can always find somewhere to hear them. These people might not have heard these instructions given out because they did not turn on their sets at the time and were not interested in that kind of statement, and I do not think that these people would go to public halls in order to hear broadcasting when they could almost always hear it either in their own or a friend's house.
National Health Insurance (Benefits)
asked the Minister of Health whether he has now considered the question of increasing all benefits paid under the National Health Insurance Act j and can he make a statement as to when they are to be increased, and by what amounts?
The question referred to by the hon. Member is being fully explored. It would not, in any case, be possible to introduce before Christmas the legislation which would be necessary to give effect to any decision to increase National Health Insurance benefits.
Will the hon. Lady bear in mind that this is a very difficult problem, and, in view of the energy now being displayed by munition workers in particular and by other groups of workpeople, and the effect upon their physique, will she have regard to the relatively low benefit that is being paid?
Yes, Sir; most certainly.
Questions
Requisitioned Vessels (Compensation and Insurance)
asked the Minister of Shipping what action he is taking in regard to fishing and other vessels engaged on Government work which have been lost owing to mines or other enemy action; and will compensation be awarded to the owners, whether they were adequately insured or not, in view of the fact that full insurance rates were impracticable under the bad' trade during the past year?
Arrangements for compensation in respect of most classes of requisitioned vessels lost by enemy action are incorporated in the charter parties under which the vessels are requisitioned. The arrangements to be made in respect of certain types of small craft, including fishing vessels, are still under negotiation and due consideration will be given to cases where vessels were inadequately insured prior to requisition, with a view to fixing reasonable values.
Cannot the negotiations with regard to the small type of fishing vessels be expedited as they have been hanging fire for a long time?
I will see what can be done.
Is my hon. Friend aware that with regard to fishing vessels no compensation is being paid at present, and will he have regard to the fact that these are people of small means and expedite the matter?
I will do my best. The final value is still under negotiation with regard to some of the vessels of the smaller type, but I will do what I can to get the matter settled.
Royal Air Force
Coastal Command
asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on agreed or prospective changes in the control of the Coastal Command?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to a Question on the same subject, a copy of which I am sending him.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the greater unity of control that is now being introduced will certainly result in a higher standard of efficiency and that the relations which have existed between the Navy and the Royal Air Force Officer in Command of the Coastal Command have been most cordial?
Yes, Sir.
Acting Corporals
asked the Secretary of State for Air, with regard to men who, for periods of several months, are appointed as acting corporals without increased pay or official status, whether, as this causes considerable dissatisfaction among men so appointed, he will consider a review of the system so that increased responsibility is recognised by increased pay or status, or both?
Acting unpaid corporals either get pay of the rank retrospectively after 21 days or receive qualification or duty pay for increased responsibility in addition to their ordinary emoluments.
Questions
Area Boards
asked the Minister without Portfolio whether he is satisfied that the area boards are functioning efficiently; have they sufficient power; and can he make a statement on the work of the area boards?
As the statement is somewhat long, I propose, with my hon. Friend's permission, to circulate it in the Official Report.
My right hon. Friend will be aware that the Members of these boards are anxious to bring about the maximum results and that there is a tremendous amount of good will on these boards, and, in view of these facts, if this is an informative reply, will he consider the advisability of circulating it to the members of the boards?
I have no doubt that the reply will be published and will be made available, but if my hon. Friend doubts whether it will reach these people, I will see that this is done.
Following is the statement:
In a statement on 24th July, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply, who is Chairman of the Industrial Capacity Committee, intimated that the Area Boards were to be reconstituted. They then consisted of the official area representatives of the Admiralty, the Board of Trade, and the Ministries of Labour, Supply and Aircraft Production. In the reconstitution, these official members remained, but three industrialists and three Trade Unionists were added to each Board, the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman being drawn from among these additional members. The process of finding suitable men, who were willing to serve as additional members of Area Boards, proceeded more rapidly for some areas than for others, but all the reconstituted Boards came into operation during August. No attempt has been made to lay down rigid rules for the Area Boards in their task of mobilising the industrial resources of their areas. It seemed better that each Board should decide upon its own methods of approach to the problems confronting it; and these problems are not the same in each area. Some Boards, in fact, have had fuller opportunity than others for measuring and developing their strength.
It must be borne in mind that the official members of the Boards remain responsible to their respective Departments and that the Boards do not exist to over-ride the policies of those Departments, but to assist their being implemented. For example, the business of finding capacity for certain classes of munitions, or of facilitating sub-contracting, or of investigating the suitability of a building for a particular purpose, is the business primarily of the Area Officer concerned; the Area Board is a clearinghouse where such business can be co-ordinated, and common services for it can be provided. As illustrations, I may refer to the interesting experiment of the local Clearing Centres set up by the London and South Eastern Area Board, and similar measures under consideration elsewhere; to the supply of information from Machine Tool Surveys to Area Boards; and to the work done by Area Boards on accommodation for the dispersal and removal of factories.
Industrial capacity may be said to consist of factory buildings, tools, workpeople and managers, but its use depends on raw material, transport facilities, fuel, services, housing and food supplies, among other things. Some of the most valuable work of the Area Boards has been the investigation of specific local problems concerning matters such as these; and where the problem has not been capable of local solution, their reports have been of considerable value to the central Departments concerned. This wider mobilisation of industrial capacity justifies the inter-departmental character of the Boards and the inclusion of members who are not officials. Liaison with those concerned with the conditions upon which the use of industrial capacity depends is a function of the Area Boards which should develop. The reconstituted Boards have had three months in which to find their feet. Their operation has, of Course, been under observation during this time, and it may be convenient to review it before long with a view to further improvements in the light of experience.
Food Supplies
Local Investigation Committees
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food how many food investigation committees have been established; whether they are invested with power to prosecute in any properly examined case; and what other powers they possess?
Seventeen local food price investigation committees have been appointed. They have no power to prosecute, but as I informed my hon. and learned Friend on 6th November, they have power to make recommendations regarding the price of uncontrolled foodstuffs.
Can my hon. and gallant Friend tell me what is the procedure? If they consider that there has been exploitation, can they do no more than recommend that something should be done and leave it to London to take any action of the kind in the future or not?
It is obvious that anything of this sort must be controlled centrally. You cannot have 17 different areas in different parts of Britain taking action upon the same commodity, and therefore, as with the Board of Trade and price regulation, that also comes through a central authority in order to get uniformity.
Is it not the fact that as far as the Board of Trade is concerned, there is price control of many articles, which makes the position more difficult, whereas in food control there is a minimum number of price controls?
The hon. and learned Member asks about prosecutions, and the procedure in both cases is exactly the same.
Hotels and Restaurants (Rationing)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has considered the quantities of rationed food supplied free of coupon in restaurants, institutes and the like; and whether he will consider the practicability, in the national interests, of ordering surrender of some food coupons for all rationed food supplied in this manner?
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of our serious shipping losses and the consequent restriction of imported food supplies, he will institute stricter rationing in hotels and restaurants?
Residents in institutions are not in a position to obtain rationed foodstuffs in excess of the prescribed quantities; and my Noble Friend already has under consideration the terms upon which rationed food may be obtained by and consumed in catering establishments such as hotels and restaurants.
Is my hon. and gallant Friend dealing with cases of those who are not residents in institutions and who can afford to go and have meals in institutions in addition to their own rations? Do they not thereby reap the benefit of getting more food than they should?
It depends what my hon. and learned Friend means by institutions. I take it he does not mean hotels. I would point out that the practice of eating out has been extended very considerably, by all classes of the community, since the last war. Munitions institutions, catering shops and workers' canteens are in exactly the same category as hotels.
Would there be any objection to surrendering a coupon in relation to rationed food consumed anywhere?
I have pointed out that that is being considered at the present time.
Bananas
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, before deciding to prohibit the further importation of bananas, consideration was given to the effect of such decision upon very many people employed in the banana trade, whose livelihood is now being taken away; and whether the decision can be reconsidered?
All relevant considerations, including those mentioned by my hon. Friend, were taken into account before the decision to suspend further importation of bananas was reached. My Noble Friend's policy with regard to the importation of all food supplies is subject to constant review in the light of changing circumstances.
Do I take it that efforts will be made to employ the men who are displaced?
Most certainly.
Flour
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in respect of an American process for retaining the wheat germ and oil in the milling of white flour, he has examined this plan in detail; and, if so, will he give the reason or reasons for it being turned down in favour of synthetic vitamin?
My Noble Friend has obtained authoritative reports regarding flour made by an American process such as is referred to in my hon. Friend's Question, but they do not bear out the claims made for the flour in the matter of germ content and keeping qualities. My Noble Friend's attention has recently been drawn to somewhat similar claims made on behalf of a Canadian process for producing white flour described as of high vitamin potency and he has arranged to have these claims fully tested.
Are we to understand that the Roche process which has now been decided upon is to be thrown over if one of the other processes is proved to be better? This is a very important matter.
That is a rather different Question from the Question on the Paper, which asks me whether my attention has been called to an American process. My attention has been called to this process, which is extremely expensive. Very heavy royalties indeed are involved, which are most undesirable. The Canadian process is now being investigated by my Noble Friend.
Does not that reply show that the Roche process has not been definitely decided upon? This is very important, because there is a widespread feeling of uncertainty about this Roche process, and the public generally are very alarmed lest it should be selected without any real investigation being made.
I can assure my hon. Friend that the best process in the national interest will be the one adopted.
Would not the best process be to take out vitamin B1 altogether?
Dried Milk
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that dried milk has risen in price since 18th November from Is. 6d. per packet, equalling seven pints of cow's milk, to 2s. 6d. per packet; and what steps are being taken to restore this food to a reasonable figure?
In order to meet the increased costs of producing milk it has been necessary to raise the price of milk for manufacturing purposes to Is. 7d. per gallon. The cost of milk required for manufacturing a packet of dried milk prepared from seven pints of raw milk would therefore be 1s. 5d. The price of 1s. 6d. per packet mentioned by my hon. Friend must, therefore, have been in respect of dried milk manufactured from raw milk before the manufacturing price was raised to its present level.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the very great hardship being inflicted upon consumers of this dried milk, especially upon poor persons, who obtain it sometimes at cost price through the local authorities, and the local authorities themselves? Cannot steps be taken to bring the price down to a reasonable figure, as 2s. 6d. is not a reasonable price?
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that national dried milk is cow's without either added vitamin D or iron salts; that it is now established that for infants up to one year dried milk with added vitamin D is superior to national dried milk alone and that for children above that age vitamin D and iron salts should be added, and that these two grades of milk powder are being supplied by manufacturers to local authorities; and whether, in view of the increased cost and the difficulty of procuring cod liver oil, source of vitamin D, steps will be taken to supply national dried milk with the additions mentioned?
National dried milk is ordinary milk in powdered form and contains no added ingredients. It is supplied as a substitute for liquid milk for consumption by infants under one year in cases where a doctor certifies that such substitution is desirable. The purpose of the National Milk Scheme is to provide milk, either liquid or dried, and not composite foods of the type to which my hon. Friend refers; these are already provided by local authorities for children who need special feeding.
But surely if local authorities are able to obtain through certain manufacturers these special qualities requisite for children of one year of age and over, national milk ought to be produced on similar lines? Otherwise, it excludes a large number of persons.
Ministry of Supply
Munition Factories, Durham County
asked the Minister of Supply whether he will take steps to establish more munition factories in the county of Durham, as there is a great supply of labour immediately available?
I can assure my hon. Friend that the considerations to which he draws attention have been, and will continue to be, borne in mind. As he is no doubt aware, certain new factories have already been established in the County of Durham and will, when in full operation, give employment to very substantial numbers.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to the thousands of men who are now unemployed and the great supply of women available? Would he meet a deputation of Members from this county to discuss this question, as hitherto the Ministry have been rather impressed by what is called the vulnerability of this area, which now is one of the most invulnerable?
Of course, there are other considerations to which the hon. Gentleman refers in the Question, but I should be very happy to meet a deputation.
Does the Minister know there is a county called Yorkshire in the British Isles?
Commonwealth Plywood
asked the Minister of Supply why certain employés of his Ministry have been permitted to transfer a considerable amount of money to Canada; and why a firm named Commonwealth Plywood have been set up with transferred funds?
I am making inquiry as to the transaction to which I understand my hon. Friend to refer; and I will communicate with him when I have received the necessary information.
Questions
Tobacco and Confectionery (Supplies)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the increasing difficulty in obtaining stocks of tobacco and confectionery is creating a very serious situation and threatening to close thousands of shops; and will he consider an increase in the rationed supplies available to the small shopkeepers?
Tobacco manufacturers are receiving supplies of raw tobacco sufficient to enable them to meet the demand as estimated following the last increase in duty. In distributing their output among their customers, manufacturers are having regard to past trade and to movements of population. Any shortages in shops are, I think, mainly local and temporary. With regard to confectionery, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Mr. R. Morgan) on 3rd December. The instructions referred to, designed to secure a due balance between genuine priority needs on the one hand and ordinary civilian needs served by the retailer on the other, have since been issued.
Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that small shopkeepers really have serious grievances, and in view of the fact that they are suffering more than any other branch of industry, will he do what he can to alleviate the distress among this class of people?
Most certainly. The trade committee dealing with this matter views it with the gravest concern. Its whole purpose is to see that distribution of existing stocks of tobacco is equitable. That is its function at the present time, and I can assure my hon. Friend that everything possible will be done to see that stocks are distributed equitably throughout the country.
Is the rationing of confectionery to areas or to shops? Many shops in my constituency have been bombed out, and those remaining are complaining that they are getting such small stocks that they are overwhelmed by those who come from bombed areas.
The actual distribution is in the hands of the existing wholesalers, who do their distribution to the best of their ability according to the requirements and needs of the district. I would remind my hon. Friend that while we are getting a strain upon areas through being reception areas, it should not be forgotten that there is a very great strain on evacuation areas owing to bombing and so forth.
But these people are not getting supplies. If allocation is made to shops and half-a-dozen shops are bombed out, the remaining shops should have their supplies.
I cannot imagine wholesalers sending supplies to shops that are bombed out.
Why not send them to the ones that are not bombed?
British Army
Home Guard
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can define the duties of General Lord Gort in connection with the Home Guard?
The duties, of Lord Gort, who already holds the appointment of Inspector-General to the Forces for Training, have been extended to include the Home Guard, so that commanders of that force may benefit by his advice and great experience. All other matters affecting the Home Guard are now dealt with by the Director-General, Home Guard, at the War Office.
Expeditionary Force (51st Highland Division)
asked the Secretary of State for War what steps he is taking to record and give publicity to the part played by the 51st Highland Division in the hard fighting in France?
The operations of the 51st Highland Division are recorded in despatches and diaries in exactly the same way as those of other formations. I explained in my answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) on 7th November last why the official despatches cannot be published.
Is the Minister aware that there have been very alarming reports published in the Press about the special infliction of bad treatment by the Germans on this Division, and that it might be some consolation to the relatives of these men if they had some description of the fighting that took place in France and as a result of which the men were captured?
I am afraid it would be impossible to publish the record of one particular Division. If statements are made, they must be regarding the British Expeditionary Force generally, and I have explained why that is very difficult at the present moment.
British Prisoners of War
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will send a representative to Lisbon by air to report on the number of parcels for prisoners of war which are held up at Lisbon, and the average period they remain there, with a view to accelerating present arrangements for the despatch of parcels to Germany?
A representative of the War Organisation of the British Bed Gross Society and Order of St. John is now in Lisbon, and has reported that on 30th November none of that organisation's parcels were in Lisbon, though some 30,000 were due to arrive during the first week of December. Parcels are not unduly delayed in Lisbon, the average time taken to despatch parcels from there being five days. The main delay is between the Portuguese-Spanish frontier and Geneva. My right hon. Friend has taken urgent measures with the help of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva to overcome this difficulty. Parcels are now arriving in considerable numbers, and we have hope of further acceleration in the near future.
Does the hon. Gentleman realise that it is primarily the responsibility of the War Office to see that these transport arrangements are made as perfect as possible, and do the War Office recognise that responsibility, so that they can inform us that the transport is at last being organised in some way?
My right hon. Friend has undertaken to deal with this question on behalf of all the Services, as I think the Prime Minister explained to the House; but he is not in a position to give orders, and has to act through the International Red Cross and the American Government. There are no other agencies. I can assure my hon. Friend that those two agencies are doing their utmost for us, and my right hon. Friend has spared no effort to help in any direction possible.
Aliens (Naturalisation)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will state the present position in regard to the naturalisation of aliens?
The impossibility in present circumstances of devoting time and labour to the necessary investigations has made it necessary to suspend until further notice consideration of applications for naturalisation except applications from women who lost British nationality on marriage and whose marriage has terminated, applications from British-born women who are married to aliens of enemy nationality and exceptional cases where naturalisation is a matter of direct national interest.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is very great dissatisfaction because quite a number of German names have been published as having been naturalised? Does the hon. Gentleman assure us that all of them are in the categories he has mentioned, and ought not the cases of those who have been in this country, many of them for SO years, to be considered?
We are granting certificates only in the cases which I have enumer- ated. The hon. and gallant Gentleman will bear in mind, of course, that the granting of British nationality is a very special privilege and that these applications must be very carefully scrutinised; and, therefore, we cannot in present circumstances proceed generally with ordinary applications.
While I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman, are not the cases of those who have paid their rates and taxes for 50 years in this country entitled to consideration before those who have German names?
National Finance
Damaged Property (Compensation)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the Government compensation scheme for war damage to property is based upon pre-war prices, March. 1939, thus involving considerable loss to small owners, who have to reinstate at current costs; and will he reconsider the matter?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on 20th November in reply to a question by the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Sorensen).
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will, in the forthcoming Bill affording compensation for damage to property by enemy action, include privately-owned motor cars used for business and other essential purposes damaged or destroyed by enemy action?
Under the War Damage Bill, which will be published to-day, provision will be made for the insurance against the risk of war damage of motor cars used for business or private purposes.
Excess Profits Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the growing number of complaints from companies penalised by the present system of excess profits taxation, which makes no sufficient allowance for the fact that many companies, through no fault of their own, were making small profits, or even losses, during the years previous to the imposition of the tax; and whether he is prepared to consider joint recommendations from such companies?
My right hon. Friend is always ready to consider any representations for amendment of the taxation law, but as he reminded my hon. Friend in yesterday's reply to him, the question of granting adequate substituted standards of profit to a concern whose actual profits of the standard period were too low to constitute a reasonable standard has been the subject of recent amending legislation in the Finance Act, 1940, Section 27.
Questions
School Shelters (Durham County)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he has considered the statement of the chief architect to the County of Durham Education Committee, of which he has received a copy, in which allegations are made of neglect by the Board of Education on the subject of school shelters; that there has been a scarcity of material for building shelters; that the Board have ignored representations from the committee; that in consequence there is chaos in respect of shelter accommodation in schools throughout the county of Durham; and what steps he is taking to remedy this state of affairs?
Yes, Sir; my right hon. Friend has considered the statement made by the chief architect to the County of Durham Education Committee. Within the limits of a Parliamentary answer it is not possible to deal with all the allegations it contains. The main difficulty in connection with this matter was the supply of cement, and my right hon. Friend regrets that the chief architect omitted to make if, clear in his report as circulated that the necessary authority for obtaining an additional 800 tons was despatched to his authority before the conference at which his statement was made. As the hon. Member will be aware, the cement situation is now somewhat easier and the supply of cement for local authority work no longer requires authorisation by the Board.
Are we to understand that the Board of Education deny the general allegations made by the chief architect to the Education Committee?
The statement made by the architect covers 16 closely printed pages and clearly it would be impossible in reply to a Parliamentary Question to give an answer to all the allegations, but I am meeting hon. Members who represent the County of Durham at 12 o'clock to-day, and I hope to go in detail into the various statements made.
Colliery Companies' (Contributory Scheme)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary for Mines whether he has received proposals from the coal industry regarding a scheme for a levy to assist colliery undertakings affected by loss of trade consequent upon war conditions; and whether he will make a statement?
Proposals of this nature have been put before me by the Central Council of Colliery Owners, and at an early date a resolution will be laid before the House inviting approval of a draft Order extending the scope of the Central (Coal Mines) Scheme for this purpose. The matter is fully explained in a White Paper, which will be available in the Vote Office to-day.
Do I understand from the Minister that it is intended, by common agreement, to make a national levy for the benefit of some collieries?
Yes, Sir, it is intended that those collieries which have not suffered any impairment as a result of war conditions will contribute to a fund from which assistance will be given to more distressed areas.
Have consultations taken place between the miners' representatives and the coalowners, and will there be a joint control over the fund?
I do not think there will be any problem of control or administration. The matter will be dealt with by arithmetical methods which will be explained.
Will the Minister insure that all people who need coal during the winter will receive it, whether they are able to pay for it or not?
That is another Question. I can assure the hon. Member that all steps are being taken to convey coal where it is required and that the poor will be the first to receive attention.
Will the cost of this scheme be included in the ascertainment before wages are paid?
No, there will be no deduction from wages. This amount will be passed through the industry. There will be no charge upon the industry, because it will be paid out to the industry in the exact measure in which it is taken from the industry. It is rather involved, but I hope the scheme will make it a little more plain.
Will the scheme affect the price of coal?
Not necessarily. It is not essential that it should be expressed in the price of coal. It depends on the ascertainments in the districts from time to time.
Bill Presented
War Damage Bill,
"to make provision with respect to war damage to immovable property and to goods," presented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. Herbert Morrison, Mr. Ernest Brown, the Attorney-General, the Lord Advocate, the Solicitor-General and Captain Crookshank; To be read a Second time upon the next Sitting day, and to be printed. (Bill 6.)
Message from the Lords,
Conduct of a Member
That they give leave to the Viscount Simon, Lord Chancellor and the Lord Nathan to attend in order to their being examined as Witnesses before the Select Committee appointed by this House on the conduct of a Member, if their Lordship think fit.
Privileges
Resolved,
"That the Report from the Committee of Privileges of 9th October in the last Session of Parliament be now considered."—[ Mr. Attlee. ]
Report considered accordingly
I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Report of the Committee."
I move this Motion as Chairman of the Committee of Privileges—a Committee which is the servant of this House. I do not think it would be useful for me to speak at any length. The Report of the Committee has set out in full the reasons on which the Committee has come to its conclusions, and has also included the evidence upon which it has acted. I would only say a. word or two to call attention to the general nature of the inquiry. The Committee of Privileges' functions are not to review legislation, or to review regulations made under legislation, and it is not its function to review the administration by Ministers; it is wholly concerned with the question of Privilege. In this case it is solely concerned with the question of whether, in fact, the arrest of the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay), and his detention under Regulation 18B, constitutes a breach of Privilege. The Committee of Privileges, in considering any question brought before it, has to be careful of two things. First of all, it has to be careful not to suggest the relinquishment of any Privilege enjoyed by any Member of this House or by the House itself, and, secondly, not to suggest the extension of any existing Privilege or the creation of any new Privilege.
The Committee was most anxious that the hon. and gallant Gentleman should have every facility in preparing his case and in submitting his case to the Committee, and I think that hon. Members who have read the evidence will see that he was given the widest opportunity of making his representations. The Committee's duty was to ascertain also whether the action taken by the Home Secretary under Regulation 18B was in order, and that the cause of the action of the Government was not due to anything done by the hon. and gallant Member acting as a Member of this House. Parliament itself has given the Secretary of State wide powers, and has imposed upon him duties and responsibilities. The Committee had to see that he had carried these out, but it was not for the Committee to consider whether his action was right or wrong from the point of view of the charges against the hon. and gallant Member. Parliament has provided an Advisory Committee. It has provided that the Home Secretary should consider their Report, and the Home Secretary must take the responsibility for that decision as a matter of administration. The House, of course, can challenge that, either by Vote of Censure or in Committee of Supply, but that is not a matter for the Committee of Privileges.
The Report sets out the history of Privilege and indicates the reason for it, and we were very much indebted to the Clerk of the House for his evidence. I do not think there is any Member of this House who would wish to claim for himself, or others, the right to do something which, if done by any other citizen, -would be wrong. The hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern is detained because the Home (Secretary, in the exercise of his duty, has decided that it is necessary to exercise control over him. I think the true doctrine of the Privileges of Parliament from freedom of arrest is very well stated, as laid down by the Commons in the year 1641:
The Lord Privy Seal has given a very compact exposition, but a careful one, of the work of the Committee. I think the House is very right to be exceedingly careful in any such matter of Privilege as this. I paid special attention to one statement which the Lord Privy. Seal made upon which my own judgment would have been largely based. That is when he said it was essential that we should not impair any of the existing Privileges of the House, and we have to examine very carefully whether this Report does anything to impair our Privilege of freedom of speech in this House which we have from the time of the Bill of Rights. I should like to repeat the actual words of the Committee on that point, because they lay down an assertion, of Privilege with regard to freedom of speech in this very Report, in paragraph 14.
I ask myself, therefore, whether this form of detention under Regulation 18B was more analogous to private grounds than to grounds of the safety of the State. Asking myself that question, there is only one reply. It is involved with public grounds, and is therefore analogous to those cases where Privilege has not been taken. As a matter of fact, the Lord Privy Seal made it clear that, so far as our present decision is concerned, it would not necessarily be based only on precedent but on grounds of public policy, and he read a most pertinent passage from a previous Commons Resolution on that point. On the ground of public policy, I may put it very simply. Would it be public policy in the case of very well-known men who are now detained under Regulation 18B—there are both the hon. and gallant Gentleman and Sir Oswald Mosley, who is not a Member of the House—to say that the hon. and gallant Gentleman is to be let out and Sir Oswald Mosley is to be kept in—not only Sir Oswald Mosley, but simple-minded followers of his who are detained under the Regulation? I should say that the danger to democratic Parliaments is now greater than it was in the last war. In the last war there was the case of a Member for Darlington, who proved finally to be a German agent. This is the problem which we have to face. We are faced with the fact now that in every democratic country there are sections of persons whose allegiance to a foreign Government is in fact stronger than their allegiance to their own, and in both extremes of politics. That is a problem which we have never had to face before."
Is that allegation made against the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay)?
I cannot deal with an individual.
It is the only case that we are discussing here to-day.
I am discussing the general question whether we ought to give a Member of Parliament a Privilege which is not given to the public outside.
May I ask you, Sir, as to the general scope of the Debate, is the subject, as now defined by the right hon. Gentleman, the subject under discussion —the general question of the Privileges of Members of Parliament and their rights, or is it the particular case of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Peebles and Southern, which was referred to the Committee of Privileges?
The actual question under discussion is that set out in the terms of reference to the Committee of Privileges, to consider and report whether the detention of Captain Ramsay .under Regulation 18B constitutes a breach of Privilege of the House. That is the primary question under discussion, but it is impossible to dissociate that from the general principle of what constitutes a breach of the Privilege of the House.
In view of the right hon. Gentleman's remark about people in both extremes of politics having more loyalty to other Governments than to their own, many Members here have passed remarks directed towards me. I want to have the right, if this matter is to be raised, to meet these dirty, cowardly slanders which are being peddled about.
There is no question of associating any particular individual with a question of Privilege. It is a general matter of what constitutes a breach of Privilege, and various instances are quoted without reference to particular Members. They must not take it upon themselves to associate themselves with them.
I do not know that I am thin-skinned, but, when hon. Members round about are making slanderous inferences, I am entitled to protest, and I am going to protest. It is loyalty to the people of this country that determines any associations that I have anywhere.
I was saying that the fact that these schools of thought exist ft democratic countries in time of war has been used by our enemy for military purposes. Therefore, we are, as I said, in greater danger in this war than we were in the last war, and those schools of thought, as the case of France has shown, may be represented just as much inside Parliament as outside it. For that reason, I say it would be an impossible situation if this House were to refuse to accept this Motion. I think we must accept the position that an action taken by a Member of Parliament outside this House, acting in his individual capacity, is subject to the same law as actions taken by other citizens.
I should not have dared to intervene in this Debate, if I did not feel most strongly concerned about this question of Parliamentary Privilege and also about any influence which the decision of the Committee of Privileges may have in the future. It has been generally stated, and I think it is laid down in the evidence, that it is undesirable for this House to do anything which either increases or reduces Parliamentary Privilege. I hope, a little later, to make a few observations on the general position of Parliamentary Privilege and how it affects the electorate in this country to-day, but to start with, I would like to draw attention to one or two paragraphs in the Report of the Committee of Privileges. In their Summary of Conclusions we read the following:
"Your Committee's conclusions are as follows:
The precedents lend no support to the view that Members of Parliament are exempted by privilege of Parliament from detention under Regulation 18B of the Defence (General) Regulations, 1939. Preventive arrest under statutory authority by executive order is not within the principle of the cases to which the privilege from arrest has been decided to extend."
That was the conclusion arrived at by the Committee and I propose to submit to the House that, to some extent, that is a limiting conclusion and one which tends to reduce Parliamentary Privilege. Before doing so, or rather as part of doing so, I ask hon. Members to consider the general conclusions which were put forward by the Clerk of the House of Commons, Sir Gilbert Campion. They appear on page 7 of the evidence. Those conclusions were:
"1. A review of precedents of the preventive detention of Members under conditions strictly analogous to the case of Captain Ramsay shows that the House has never come to a decision on the question of privilege involved.
2. Two other classes of detention have been examined which are not strictly analogous but had a certain bearing on Captain Ramsay's case in so far as the purpose of the detention was preventive and not punitive."
He then refers to detention under the Habeas Corpus Suspension Acts to which I also propose to refer shortly. The point I wish to make is this. Those two general conclusions, put forward by the Clerk of this House, and the conclusion of the Committee of privileges set out in the Summary of Conclusions, do not appear to me to be in agreement. The Committee's conclusion is that the precedents lend no support to the view that Members of Parliament are exempted by Privilege of Parliament from detention. But Sir Gilbert Campion's conclusion is that a review of the precedents of the preventive detention of Members, under conditions strictly similar to the case of the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay), shows that the matter has never been settled by this House. Therefore, I do not think we can escape from this conclusion that in adopting this Report of the Committee of Privileges, we are going a step further than this House has ever gone before and declaring—a declaration which was especially avoided in the earlier history of this House—that a Member who is detained on suspicion, without a charge having been brought against him. [ Interruption. ] I am not arguing the case at the moment. I do not even profess to be qualified to argue. I have not sufficient knowledge to do so and in addition to that, recent happenings have made it difficult to seek information. But I say there is no doubt about the fact that this House, to-day, in adopting this Report, would be taking, in relation to Privilege, a further step than any which has been taken hitherto, and that further step would be a limiting step.
May I interrupt my hon. Friend? I hesitate to refer to my own cross-examination of a witness before the Committee, but, as he has quoted Sir Gilbert Campion's conclusions, will he also refer to the cross-examination— perhaps examination would be the more correct term—of Sir Gilbert Campion by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton) and myself. I think he will find that this, to some extent, disposes of his point. It may be that we were wrong and that Sir Gilbert Campion was right, but it is not correct to say that the matter was not fully discussed by the Committee.
May I direct my hon. Friend's attention to his statement that the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay) was detained on suspicion? Surely, in the very first page of the evidence, there is a definite charge of treasonable activity made against him. It is a charge that he has been:
"concerned in acts prejudicial to the public safety or the defence of the realm."
There is a definite charge.
I am obliged to the Noble Lord for drawing my attention to anything which I have overlooked and also to the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Loftus), but I claim this indulgence from the House. The task which I have set myself to-day is one for which, I know only too well, I am not specially qualified. In putting this case I find myself under conditions of extreme difficulty and I shall therefore ask hon. Members to allow me to put my case as I see it. When they come to speak afterwards, I shall be only too glad to hear any corrections or any points which they wish to offer. From what I was saying just now, I wish to return to page 5 of the evidence in the .Report, which refers specially to
"the so-called Suspension of Habeas Corpus Acts."
It appears to me that the only precedent which came before the Committee of Privileges, and which was in any way similar to the case with which we are dealing, was that case in which, in 1715, the House of Commons, I believe also at a time of crisis and acute unrest, passed Regulations which were very similar, if not wholly similar, to the Regulations recently passed by this House. Those recent Regulations, as I say, were passed in a time of crisis, and I venture to submit that, in all the circumstances, they were passed without that due consideration—it was very excusable under the conditions—which this House would ordinarily wish to give to such Regulations. When these Regulations were passed in 1715 the House of Commons were anxious about them, for they did not wish seriously to curtail, if they were curtailing, the Privileges of this House, and they passed the Regulations with a certain proviso. That proviso was discussed by the Committee, and I would like to draw attention to it:
"Provided always and be it enacted That nothing in this Act shall be construed to extend to invalidate the ancient rights and privileg3s of Parliament, or to the imprisonment or detaining of any Member of either House of Parliament, during the sitting of such Parliament, until the matter, of which he stands suspected, be first communicated to the House, of which he is a Member, and the consent of the said House obtained for his commitment or detaining."
On that proviso which the House of Commons of that day thought right to add to these drastic Regulations, the Clerk to the House Sir Gilbert Campion gave his advice, and he submitted three reasons which might have prompted the House of Commons of that day to take this action:
"( a ) Parliament was of opinion that privilege protected Peers and Members from detention under the Act, but allowed either House to waive privilege in individual cases, without however destroying the privilege as a whole.
"( b ) Parliament left open the question whether protection was, or was not, afforded by privilege.
"( c ) Parliament was of opinion that no protection was afforded by privilege, but conferred on each House the right of refusing its consent to the detention of one of its Members, and inserted the saving for privilege ex abundanti cautela.
"There is some difficulty in accepting the first of these interpretations in view of the reluctance which Parliament has always shown to face the legal difficulties involved in the waiving of a privilege."
Sir Gilbert said that probably the third interpretation was correct. I want to say on that —and here again, although this is only one opinion and, I admit, the opinion of a Member who cannot claim to be especially versed in procedure—that in my view (6) should be taken as the real reason why Parliament added this proviso. Parliament left open the question whether protection was or was not afforded by the Privilege, Furthermore, I find that that contention is later rather emphasised in the conclusions of Sir Gilbert Campion when he said- that there was no real precedent to the present case. If that be so, and I hold that it is so, it is reasonable to say that the Parliament of 1715, when passing these Regulations, meant exactly what they said. They did not want to do anything to extend Parliamentary Privilege or to curtail it. At the same time, they were passing exceptional legislation of a temporary character which gave them cause for anxiety, and they, therefore, added that proviso which for the time being gave a considerable measure of Parliamentary Privilege or protection, namely, that the Member concerned could not be arrested on suspicion without the consent of the House.
The hon. Member is now going considerably beyond the actual findings in the report by suggesting, if no more, that the Regulations should be amended. That would be outside the scope of this Debate.
I was only quoting the passage and making the reference I made in order to show that, in my view, there has been a curtailment of Parliamentary Privilege and that the acceptance of this report does to some extent curtail that Privilege.
The next point to which I wish to refer is mot nearly so important. It is also in the Summary, where the Lees case is referred to. It is suggested that Members of this House have adequate protection from toeing wrongfully arrested by a member of the Executive because, if a writ of Habeas Corpus were applied for in any case, the Home Secretary of the day had to swear an affidavit that he acted in complete good faith in accordance with the Regulations he was administering. I agree that it is most unlikely that any Home Secretary would imprison any Members of this House wrongfully, that is to say, except in strict accordance with any Regulations which the House may have passed. At the same time, I cannot see any real protection in that, because, if there should be at any time a Home Secretary who would wrongfully imprison Members of this House, I do not put it. past any Home Secretary to be able to swear an affidavit to substantiate his position.
I am mainly concerned about this question of Privilege, not on any technical ground on which the Committee of Privileges may have arrived at their decision. I am mainly concerned about it for this reason: It seems to me that the most important thing is not the detention of the individual, not the personal liberty of the individual Member of Parliament. The most important thing, which is a constitutional matter, is that a constituency should not be disfranchised. That has never been more important than it is to-day. I do not know what other Members find, but I find that I have more work to do for my constituency since the war began than I ever had before. I think I can say without any personal vanity that many of my constituents would have suffered in many ways if I had not been here to do my duty as a Member of this House on their behalf. Parliamentary Privilege protects the Member in certain cases, and there are certain circumstances in which a Member automatically, or almost automatically, ceases to remain a Member if certain things happen. If a Member becomes a lunatic after entering the House, he ceases to remain a Member. If a Member is convicted of a criminal offence, he ceases to be a Member. If a Member becomes bankrupt, he ceases to be a Member.
It seems to me that real Parliamentary Privilege should consist in this, that a Member of Parliament who has not done or been concerned with anything of sufficient importance to make him cease to be a Member of Parliament should be protected, not for his sake, but for the sake of his constituency, so as to enable him to perform his Parliamentary functions. I agree that the House has always been loath to increase the Privileges of any Member, and if the ideal is that a Member should be free to perform his Parliamentary functions until something has occurred which renders him no longer suitable to be a Member, I think that in that way the constituency can be safeguarded. If that be a proper reading in these times of Parliamentary Privilege, it raises the question whether there might not be other circumstances in which a Member should cease to be a Member so that another Member may be elected in his stead. The question of bankruptcy has a special bearing on that, and also a special bearing on the case which the Committee of Privileges has been considering, and for this reason: When a Member becomes bankrupt, there is a period of six months during which the bankruptcy can be annulled, and yet he still remains a Member. There, at any rate, Parliament seems to have adopted the view which I have been putting forward. It said: "This man may return to his Parliamentary functions within a period of six months, but if he cannot return within the six months he must cease to be a Member of the House." What is to be regretted, if not to be resented, in the present legislation and the consequent finding of the Committee, is the fact that a Member of Parliament can be prevented from carrying out his duties, and his constituency can be deprived of all representation, with no time limit of any kind.
Personally, much as I value the traditions of the House of Commons, and much as I agree that the conservative manner in which we proceed makes an enormous contribution to the stability of our proceedings, I can never feel that this question of Privilege should for all time remain static or, if not static, should from time to time, as I submit is happening in this case to-day, be further limited. In considering the position as it is to-day, we should remember the Parliamentary position and the position of the electorate as they were 200 or 300 years ago, the period to which we go back for our precedents on which to base our present day decisions. Two or three hundred years ago a Member of Parliament did not represent his constituency as he does to-day. He probably represented a big landlord, and it did not concern 30,000 or 40,000 people if he could no longer perform his Parliamentary duties, and I submit that it is high time that Parliament reconsidered this whole question of Parliamentary Privilege, not from the point of view of how it affects the individual Member of Parliament but how it affects the constituency concerned.
I am very glad that this matter has been brought before the Committee of Privileges and before the House of Commons. The Committee of Privileges is a very distinguished body, but, of course, it is only an advisory body, and it is right and proper that any decisions it arrives at should be confirmed, or otherwise, by this House. I understand there are precedents both ways, and that it has hot been the usual thing for a Report from the Committee to come to the House where the Committee took the view that no breach of Privilege was involved. None the less, I think it is right that we ourselves should take the responsibility for coming to a decision on this very grave matter, because, make no mistake, it is a thing which cuts at the very roots of our representative system. If there is any danger of abuse involved, then we must face it and see what methods can be adopted for preventing it.
Having read the Report carefully,' I have come to the conclusion that the Committee arrived at a correct decision based upon the precedents of the past, and therefore I venture to agree with the Committee, but none the less there is a number of points arising out of the Report which I desire to comment upon and to criticise. I think that the Lord Privy Seal, in speaking just now, went rather too far when he said that a Member would not make a claim for Privilege for himself to do something if it were wrong if done by others. I think those words were much too general. Obviously the whole question of Privilege is involved there. Take the case of imprisonment for civil debt. It is right that those who are not Members of this House should go to prison, but it is not right for Members of Parliament to go to prison for a civil offence. That is the difference. Therefore, I think the Lord Privy Seal was a little loose in the language he used. We ought to be careful of the language we use in connection with Privilege. From time to time throughout the centuries the House has taken different steps in connection with this question of Privilege in accordance with the emotions of the moment and its feelings and prejudices. There was the case of John Wilkes, which is referred to in the Report:
None the less I think the precedents which do exist point clearly to the decision at which the Committee arrived. At the same time we want to get clearly in our minds the point that we are dealing with the circumstances of this case only, that we are not saying that in every case of arrest, whatever the Regulations the Home Secretary may make, or whatever the circumstances may be, there would be no question of Privilege. I do not think that could be argued at all. ( Interruption. ) I agree that there is a danger of a precedent being created here, but I want to get it on record that, in my view, the precedent is concerned solely with the circumstances existing in this case and nothing else. (Supposing that under the Regulations the Home Secretary were to say that an hon. Member was to reside in a particular county, it might be Cornwall, and was not to move more than three miles from his house. To my mind, that would be a gross breach of Privilege. There it would be possible for the Home Secretary to commit a breach of Privilege under these Regulations in certain circum stances. But we are not prejudging anything of that sort we are not giving anything away.
On a point of Order. Surely if the House approves of this report, it forms a precedent which must apply in all future cases, so that similar cases under Regulation 18B will not be referred to the Committee of Privileges?
Is it not the case that, later on, new precedents might be formed?
I do not know that any point of Order arises. A precedent would no doubt be created, but not necessarily a binding precedent.
Is it the argument of my hon. Friend that if the Home Secretary ordered a Member of Parliament not to proceed more than three miles from his place of residence, that would be a breach of Privilege, but if the Home Secretary locked him up, that would not be a breach of Privilege?
I think that matter ought to be determined by the Committee of Privileges.
My argument is that, in this case, I agree with the Committee. In circumstances in which a Member has evidently done something so little serious that he is allowed to live at home, read papers and meet people, there can be no very strong case for preventing him from coming to the House of Commons. That is the difference between the two cases. With regard to the points raised about precedents, I say again that there will be a precedent for this sort of thing only, for the sort of thing done by the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay), and for nothing outside that matter at all. I hope that we shall be all agreed about that.
A further point in the Report, as has already been pointed out, is that the Home Secretary made a statement that his action did not arise out of anything at all done by the hon. and gallant Member from his place in Parliament. He was not saying, and did not say, whether it arose from anything that the hon. and gallant Member wrote. Suppose a Member were to write a letter on House of Commons notepaper from the House of Commons on some matter dealing with public business. There, clearly, you get the sort of question involved that arose in the Sandys case, where it was made clear that Privilege did exist. I want it to be borne in mind that this case was not based on what the hon. and gallant Member said in the House of Commons. The case does not deal with the possibility of his having done something that was privileged in other ways that are open to a Member of Parliament.
I wish to raise this point: It seems to me that it might have been reasonable in all the circumstances of this ease to have allowed the hon. and gallant Member to have counsel for his guidance. There are many precedents for Select. Committees in this House to permit counsel to appear before them. We know that that is so. We also know very well that the hon. and gallant Member, whatever his talents may be, is not well fitted—as indeed many of us are unfitted—to argue a highly technical, legal and constitutional question of this kind. The hon. and gallant Member made a very long and somewhat rambling speech, a great deal of which was clearly irrelevant. I cannot help thinking that it would have been more useful to him and to this House, as well as to the proper study of constitutional questions, if he had been permitted to employ, as representing him, someone who is an expert on the presentation of these difficult problems, and that a mistake was made in not allowing that to be done.
The main question that arises here is the interference by the Executive with the freedom of a Member of Parliament. The hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern, in the course of his exhaustive and interesting remarks, referred at length to the glorious episode in which the House of Commons figured in the 17th century, when an attempt was made by the Crown to arrest five Members. The account of it is very well worth reading. We are not now threatened by any danger of that sort. The danger that arises now is the possibility that the Executive, in certain circumstances, might do just the 6ame kind of thing—and they would have powers under the Regulations that have been issued. The last speaker referred to the defence given on page ix of the Report, in which it is said:
What is the remedy? Of course, I know that I must confine any remedy that I suggest within the terms of the discussion of the Report, but I venture to think that the Committee made a mistake in not paying sufficiently serious attention to the passage which has already been referred to, and which is on page S of the evidence, where these words appear:
I must tell the hon. Member what I told the hon. Member who preceded him in Debate. I am sure that he is going beyond the scope of this discussion and is recommending, or is proposing to recommend, some alteration in the regulation,
I quite appreciate that point, Sir, but I would point out, with great respect, that I was not going to make a suggestion of that kind. I was going to suggest—and if you allow me to proceed, you will appreciate that it is so—that the Committee should have taken those words into more careful consideration and should have included in their Report a recommendation that a special committee of Members of Parliament, not under any Regulation but as an internal matter for Members of this House, should be set up to satisfy itself that the processes of the law had been properly considered, a committee carrying out the same advisory functions for this House over the case of the particular Member concerned as is being done for other persons by the Advisory Committee which we know has been set up. I very much regret that that was not done, as I venture to think it is a possible way out of the difficulty in which we shall find ourselves if this sort of thing is allowed to go on.
The only other point I wish to make is this: The hon. Member who last spoke referred to the importance from the point of view of a constituency of a Member being allowed to come here and voice the views of his constituency. That is perfectly true, and it is very important indeed, but I do not think the point arises here as to whether steps ought not to he taken to consider cases such as this by a Committee of this House. We have the right in certain circumstances to decide that a Member shall cease to perform his functions. It has been done on various grounds, and if a Committee of this House satisfies itself, on going into the whole of the facts, that on hon. Member has acted in such a way as to unfit him for membership of this House, I think such a Member ought to be expelled and his constituents given an opportunity of electing someone else in his place. I cannot deal with the question of the Regulations. Had it been possible to do so, I would have suggested an Amendment. I hope to do so on some other occasion.
In conclusion, I wish to say that I agree with the Report on the strictly limited basis to which I have referred, and I hope that we shall take further steps, arising out of this discussion and out of what has occurred, to establish the independence of Parliament and the freedom of Members to carry out their duties and of constituents to send here whom they like so long as they are performing their duty in consonance with the traditions of the House of Commons.
I wish to preface my remarks by pointing out that I am not a member of the Right Club and that I have no sympathy at all with the anti-Jewish doctrines with which the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay) is associated. I am simply taking an interest in this case because he and his wife happen to be constituents of mine, and I therefore think it my duty to do sp. As has already been said, this Committee is a very distinguished Committee, but I think it has shown itself to be a very timid Committee also. It adhered very closely to its terms of reference, and I agree with the hon. Member who last spoke in regretting that counsel was not allowed to the hon. and gallant Member. The first excuse given was that the special permission of the House would have to be sought. Other committees have come here and have been granted that permission without difficulty, and I feel certain that, in the interests of justice, permission would have been given in this instance also if the Committee had asked for it. The other excuse was that it was against precedent.
No Member, so far as I know, has ever been represented by counsel before a Committee of Privileges.
That is exactly what I said; the Committee based its refusal on precedent. It was very strange to see the Lord Privy Seal appearing as one of the priests in the temple of the Tory stronghold of precedent, as well as to see other Members supporting him in his worship. Surely the Committee has forgotten to take into consideration the treatment that the hon. and gallant Member has been subjected to for the last few months, the mental torture, inasmuch as he has been locked up for weeks and months—
I cannot allow the hon. and gallant Member to enter upon that. That really is not before the House.
I was only trying to say that there was good reason for allowing counsel to represent the hon. and gallant Member. I think a quotation was made in this House of the opinion, of the present Lord Chancellor to the effect that it was essential that people should have proper representation, but, of course, I accept your Ruling. It has been said that it was most difficult for anyone in the position of the hon. and gallant Member, a soldier and not a trained lawyer, to put up the best case for himself in those circumstances. That point has already been made. Then, this Committee had power to send for persons, papers and records. But here a great deal of the evidence goes back to the time of Henry IV. There was, however, one part of the evidence, the evidence that was called in question, that of the present Lord Chancellor. That evidence was ambiguous and could be used on both sides, but the Committee never thought of calling the Lord Chancellor. Why did they not call him for the purpose of interpreting the evidence that was brought?
As I cannot deal with the hardships indicted upon the hon. and gallant Member, I can only say that on reading this Report it seems to me quite evident that there are two areas— the civil area and the criminal area. Between these lies the debatable land of preventive detention. It is in that debatable land that the case of the hon. and gallant Gentleman falls. In dealing with this particular point, the Clerk of the House says quite definitely on page 2 of the Report:
That is only the opinion of the Clerk of the House, and is worth no more than any other.
It appears that the Report is very much based upon the evidence of the Clerk of the House, but in any case it is a part of the evidence which this House should carefully consider.
With reference to the interruption of the Noble Lord, I suppose he admits that the Clerk of the House was called as an expert witness?
I must not further interrupt.
While, as I say, this case appears to fall into the debatable area, I think there is a tendency to throw it more into the civil rather than the criminal area. Command Paper No. 6162, which deals with the treatment to be meted out to persons detained under this Regulation, says:
"As persons detained in pursuance of Regulation 18B are so detained for custodian purposes only and not for any punitive purpose, the conditions of their confinement will be as little oppressive as possible."
That seems to indicate that this case falls not on the criminal side but on the civil side. I therefore think that if we accept this Report, we shall be limiting the Privileges of this House, which would be a very foolish thing for us, to do, both in our own interests and in the interests of our constituents. Members of Parliament are subjected to particular temptations and to particular dangers. Anyone who takes up any question in this House is immediately inundated with all sorts of correspondence. People write asking for interviews, and it might be that that correspondence might be taken as evidence that the Member has been in touch with somebody whom the Home Secretary regarded as undesirable, enabling the Member concerned to be locked up under this Regulation. It is therefore most essential that we should very carefully consider what we are doing before we accept this Report. Paragraph 14 of this Report says that the Committee would be very careful to see that the hon. and gallant Member was not detained because of anything that he said in this House. But is the Privilege limited so that it operates only in respect of something said in this House? I believe that here the Committee have given themselves away. The House should consider this very carefully indeed, because these Privileges are given to Members of Parliament as Members of Parliament, not to protect them merely against something they have said in this House. I hope that we shall think twice before adopting this Report.
I would not like this occasion to pass without entering my dissent to the decision of the Committee of Privileges in this matter. I am not proposing to divide the House. (An Hon. Member: "Why not?") My recent ventures in division in this House have not been such as to encourage me. Also, the Act here involved was one committed by His Majesty's Government against a Member who up to the moment of his arrest was one of their most loyal supporters.
Not the same Government.
They are the same Government, but they have been strengthened. Their support in the House of Commons is still substantially the same support as was in existence then. The hon. and gallant Member was an active supporter of the then Government. It seems to me that the initiative against his treatment should come from some of his old political associates. I do not know how many years I have been in the House with the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I cannot remember ever being in agreement with a single thing which he did in this House, except once when he brought forward a proposal for the derating of pigeon lofts; I thought that a reasonable suggestion, and I gave it my hearty support. But I think that the Committee of Privileges have not done us a good service in the Report which they have presented to-day. We are told that we never had Privilege so far as criminal offences were concerned. I agree. We did have Privilege so far as civil offences were concerned. That Privilege was a complete dead letter in relation to the social and economic conditions of the day, so that protection for civil offences is meaningless. To-day the Committee come forward and tell us that there is no protection for a rank-and-file Member of Parliament against the Executive of the day, not only for criminal offences or civil offences, but for political activities, which never get the length of being stigmatised as a crime, which never get the length of being formulated, which never get the length of being tried in court, but which are only surveyed by a not very responsible committee. When I say "not very responsible," I do not mean that the members of the committee are not responsible members of the community, but that they are not in the same responsible position as judges, not even in the same responsible position as Members of Parliament, who have to answer to their constituents. There are five or six men, chosen undoubtedly for their public activities and reputation in one direction or another, but they have no responsibility to anyone, they can resign from the committee on any day, and they sit in camera.
Anyone can go to the Home Secretary and say, "Maxton was doing so and so"—or "The hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) is worse than I am; because I try to keep my activities along certain specified lines, but he takes in the whole territory. At any given moment the Executive can say, "This man is a damned nuisance—not for anything he has done in this House but for something he did in Wolverhampton."
The hon. Member is now criticising Regulation 14B. That is going beyond the matter before the House.
I am pointing out that the decision of the Committee of Privileges—and I think this is within the scope of to-day's Debate—is that Members of Parliament have no Privilege which they can plead against an Executive which shuts them up for political activities, unspecified, untried, and never at any time brought into the light of public day. I agree that it would not be in Order for me to carry the argument about that to an extreme length. I merely assert that if this House decides that we cannot be protected in any way against an Executive, we may wipe out Parliamentary Privilege altogether. If we do that, Parliamentary Privilege has never been anything more to parliamentarians than certain exemptions and rights were to military men, medical men, and clergymen. All these professional men have certain recognised rights, which are regarded as necessary for the proper carrying out of the duties that they perform professionally. We in this House of Commons were supposed to have had some rights; to be able to speak without fear or favour, expressing our views as to what we believed to be best for the people and for the country. Now we are told that we have no such rights, except in the very limited way in which we are protected for utterances inside the House. But, as I pointed out, an hon. Member has only to create for himself a certain relationship to the Executive of the day inside this House, and the Executive of the day can put him under detention. If we say, "Is it because of his activities in this House?" they can say, "No, it is because of something that he did in Wolverhampton." That is no protection at all
I was particularly shocked at the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith)—who has been, to a large extent, with the assent of a majority of this House, performing some of the functions of Leader of the Opposition—approving this sort of thing on a large scale, and pointing to what happened to France as justification for it. But what happened in France seems to be a very poor justification for shutting up Members of the Chamber of Deputies. France did it on a large scale and shut them up so that the true voice of the nation could not be heard at the critical moment in the nation's life.
Does it depend where the acclamation comes from?
The hon. Member knew where the acclamation came from last Thursday.
We did not hear it when France interned its Deputies.
I have been long enough in this House to know that the defenders of liberty in critical situations do not all sit in one part of the House. The hon. Member knows that well too. In any ease, he must not try to draw that fine distinction nowadays between himself and the rest of his party who sit opposite. It is to destroy the meaning of Parliament if the Executive have the power to shut up anyone or any group of individual Members of Parliament, and then ask the House itself to agree with it. That is what we are asked to do to-day; the Committee of Privileges ask us to say it.
May I make a friendly interruption? I hope that my hon. Friend will not bite off my head. It was done on an enormous scale in the past. Four or five of them were put into prison at one time.
I know that the House of that time did not take the step that we are being asked to take to-day. ( Interruption. ) It negatived it undoubtedly, but we are asked to do to-day something more serious than that.
Anybody who reads that Debate and brings a fair judgment to bear upon it, will see that if ever there was an issue raised in Debate, it was raised on that occasion, and the House negatived the proposal to send it to the Committee.
I agree with the Noble Lord that it is possible to make that interpretation. I prefer the interpretation of Sir Gilbert Campion, who said that on previous issues of this kind the House refused to take a decision.
Is it not the fact that the Members to whom the Noble Lord referred had never taken their seats or the oath in this House, and that the case is not analogous? They would not do so.
That does make a difference, but I do not know that it makes all the difference. It is true that the House did not take a decision in that firm sense in which we are being asked to take it to-day. I admit that on another occasion, and in other circumstances, we took a contrary decision. I agree that the precedent of to-day does not need to stand for ever. It is possible that if it were some other Member than the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay), the House would take another decision. That is not the way that we as a House should look at it. Supposing he was the most unpopular and disagreeable Member, with most unpopular and disagreeable views, we ought to say to ourselves, "Was this man trying to function decently as a responsible Member of this House? Was the trouble that he had got into, to use a workshop phrase with reference to compensation 'arising out of and in the course of his employment,' not necessarily a speech in this House, but some activity associated with and arising from the fact that he was a Member of this House?" Then we should say that Privilege ought to be stretched to the furthest point, particularly in difficult times.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Keighley said that because of the difficulty of the times anything was justified, any liberty might be swept aside. But if democracy is the superior form of government, it is just in difficult times that democracy should be preserved. Democracy, in my view, is threatened in its most delicate sentiment if Members of the House of Commons can be seized by the Executive and put into prison. Indeed, the whole struggle out of which the conception of Parliamentary Privilege arose was around this very central point, and it was not defined in any narrow way, whether it was civil or criminal or anything else. It is round the question of whether a Member could come here and defy the King and be safe from penalties for so doing. To-day, fortunately, it does not become a struggle, between individual Members of this House and the Monarch. The struggle of to-day presents itself between an Executive, which, particularly in war-time, is always trying to get more and more power concentrated into fewer hands. It is just at that point that the House of Commons wants to function with the greatest freedom, courage, and determination of the Members who form the rank and file of it. Therefore, I disagree very strongly with the Report of the Committee of Privileges. I do not take upon myself the responsibility of moving its rejection, but I hope that my dissent will be duly recorded.
I am sure that the House will share my hope that at some future time the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) will be elected to the Committee of Privileges. He will be a valuable addition to that body and will there discover a spirit which I think he would find congenial to himself. Every Member of the Committee of Privileges is devoted to the idea of the liberties and rights of Members of Parliament. They are there for that purpose, but we have to consider facts that are put before us. The conclusion that we came to without a doubt was, as is recorded in this Report, that in fact this kind of detention is not a breach of our Privileges. As to whether that ought to be so or not, perhaps I may be able to say something a little later without transgressing the bounds of Order. But on the question put to us we had no doubt. When the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) suggested that our findings related only to this case, I must read to him an operative sentence which shows that our decision is really wider than that. I do not suppose that he will like to realise that fact. We very definitely concluded, in paragraph 26:
"That preventive arrest by executive order under statutory authority is not within the principle of the cases to which the privilege of arrest has been decided."
If the House accepts this Report, it endorses the conclusion at which we arrived.
That is no doubt true, but it does not cover such a case as I was suggesting—that of a Member being told he must not move more than three miles from his place of residence. There are many other cases outside.
I think, if the hon. Gentleman refers to his speech, he will see that he was trying to limit the application of this Report to the circumstances of this particular case; we have done more than that quite deliberately. The subject seemed hardly appropriate to wartime, and it was something of a shock in these grave days to see Members of the status of the Lord Privy Seal, the Attorney-General and my Noble Friend opposite examining hour after hour what is, after all, an academic case at the moment. But we did the work thoroughly. ( Interruption. ) Yes, it is in the circumstances of this case academic. I am as much attached to the Privileges of this House as anyone, but the question put to us whether in this particular case a breach of Privilege had or had not been committed had little practical interest. Our answer has been that no breach has been committed, and we are no more forward because of that, and no practical result has followed. What would happen if our answer had been "Yes." Ex hypothesi, here is a man—I cannot go into the question of merits—who is detained on grounds of public safety. If we had said that this was a breach of Privilege, would anybody in this House say that this man must be released in order to take part in our Secret Sessions with all the risk of his being able to report what he there hears to channels which might be hostile? The whole hypothesis of the case is that the man is detained on grounds of public security, and Privilege in these circumstances was an academic problem. In that particular case no answer could have made any difference. If we had answered "Yes," does anybody suppose that the House would have issued instructions to the Governor of Brixton Prison telling him to deliver the man here at once?
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but surely the House itself is competent to deal with cases of that kind, arrest hon. Members, as it has done in the past on sufficient cause being shown, and send them to the Clock Tower or elsewhere.
It has that power, but what machinery has the House for inquiring whether a particular person is a public danger?
Appoint a Select Committee.
Surely that is quite an impracticable procedure in war-time. The House has quite deliberately given the Home Secretary power to arrest persons who are, in his judgment, a danger to the State, and quite deliberately that power does not exclude Members. That is a point to which I wish to return. My hon. Friend who is no longer here complained that this Report was curtailing the Privileges of the Members. No single Member on the Committee would endorse that; we have not curtailed a single Privilege or right that Members have hitherto enjoyed. We have, I believe, done our job faithfully by expressing what is the existing law and the existing practice in relation to Privilege in these days. We have done no more than that.
Now I want to call the attention of the House to one point which I think will be interesting to it. It is a sentence which occurs on page 6 of our Report, in Section 17, where it says: special treatment. The Act said they were not to be imprisoned or detained
Would the hon. Gentleman agree then that in present circumstances, where under Regulation 18B a Member of Parliament is detained, that he may remain detained subject to the House of Commons passing quite a formal Resolution approving his detention.
That law was for a very limited period of only six months. All special emergency laws have a very limited duration, and it is only within that period that the emergency law applies.
The essential thing is that the House itself retained the decision to authorise or forbid the imprisonment of a Member. Surely, to-day the House could retain the final decision.
That was a statutory authority. The Executive was empowered to detain subject to that restriction. It was a definite and special Act of Parliament. It would have been quite possible to insert a similar provision in the emergency law which we passed last year.
Earlier in his speech, the hon. Gentleman said that the House quite deliberately did not include that provision. He said that deliberately Members of Parliament were not specially exempted. I have no recollection of that deliberation as far as the House is concerned.
I assume that that which the House does, it does deliberately; if the hon. Member prefers, I will say that accidentally it excluded such a provision.
It makes a profound difference. If the hon. Gentleman will cast his mind back, he will remember that on these matters at that particular time there was very little deliberation.
I am afraid that for once the Government found the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) asleep. If he had been fully awake, no doubt he would have raised this matter. He will have an opportunity of doing so next year, because the emergency law lasts for only one year. Perhaps I may be allowed to conclude my remarks on the point that for a substantial period of our history the House declined to allow the arrest of Members by detention in circumstances similar to the present without the consent of the House being obtained. The practice I have mentioned, which, was started in 1715, continued; for a little over 100 years, and was then dropped, and since that time there has never been a provision in an Act giving Members of Parliament special rights to freedom from detention in such circumstances. I mention this because it seems to me that Privilege in this matter, if it ever existed, has for a very long time been dead, and if the House wishes to restore to itself a right which I believe it would have exercised in the 17th century, it can only do so effectively by deliberate statutory methods.
At present a contrary precedent is being created.
We are not creating any contrary precedent; we are declaring the existing law on Privileges. I think that all the Members of the Committee came to the conclusion that that Privilege had not been in existence for a very long time. It had not been in effective existence for all that period when the matter was governed by Statute, because clearly nobody would attempt to claim the privilege of freedom from arrest when a Statute made it plain that his arrest would take place only with the consent of the House. The Statute for practical purposes overrode the Privilege, although I agree that in form the Privilege was preserved. I feel sure that the House is right in feeling strongly on this point. We must never lightly allow an Executive to take Members from their proper work. When we grant such powers we must act with open eyes. I believe that in times like the present it is impossible to allow Members particular rights of being public dangers that are not allowed to other members of the public. Nevertheless, it is well to be vigilant to see that this Executive power is reasonably exercised, and that is the real control which we can and should exercise in the matter.
The Report from the Committee of Privileges raises questions of enormous interest to constitutional lawyers, but it does something very much more than that. It raises a question of the very greatest importance, for in my view there is a danger in accepting this Report that we are betraying certain of the privileges which this House has had for hundreds of years. I have read the various authorities and cases, as well as the Report of the Committee and the evidence. I should like to say that, although I disagree to some extent with the conclusions of the Clerk of the House, I admire very much his admirable, impartial and scholarly statement.
Before I come to the main question, there is one point, a small one but clearly one that is important in principle, which I would like to raise. There is no principle of law better established than that a man whether as trustee, director or member of a committee, or in any other similar capacity, should not act and vote on any question in which he might have an adverse interest. He must not be judge in his own cause. The Committee of Privileges was considering the action of the Executive in putting under detention a Member of the House, and the question was whether or not it was a question of Privilege. Yet, on that committee there sat and voted two members of the Executive. The Chairman of the committee was the Lord Privy Seal, an important Member of the Executive on a committee which was considering, indirectly at least, the actions of the Executive. On the face of it, that seems to be contrary to all the principles of British law and justice. I will not pursue that question any further, but I should like to hear an explanation of that rather peculiar procedure.
I must remind the hon. Member that the committee was appointed by the House. When the committee was appointed, perhaps that subject might have been raised, but it is not suitably raised now.
I submit that the committee was appointed much earlier, and as in all other cases one does not ask a director or a member of a committee to resign, but he abstains from acting or voting when the question on which he has an adverse interest arises.
That point could have been raised when the matter was referred to the Committee of Privileges. The matter having once been referred to the committee, that point is not now in order.
:. I accept your Ruling, Colonel Clifton Brown, and I will not pursue the matter further. Coming now to the main question, I want to refer to a point which arises very acutely in paragraph 15—"Freedom from Arrest"—of the Report. With very great hesitation, I feel that the committee have gone wrong in its consideration of the authorities. I hope to quote authorities to show where I think the committee have gone wrong. Paragraph 15 states: or for contempt of court of a criminal character. That was a statement made by the present Lord Chancellor in 1924. I most respectfully agree with that definition. In my view at the present time it is a true definition of Privilege of Members against arrest.
I will quote from one or two authorities to show how universally it has been accepted. I do not think we need go back earlier, but by Resolution of the Commons on 20th May, 1675, it was stated: first definition, and on one reference to Erskine May's "Parliamentary Practice," page 120, it states: mittee of Privileges have rather overlooked the Wilkes case, where the whole subject was most carefully considered. I refer hon. Members to the opinion of Lord Chief Justice Pratt in Wilkes' case:
If my hon. Friend's argument was carried into effect, am I not right in saying that the hon. and gallant Member who is now shut up would be released and that other people who have committed exactly similar actions will remain shut up? If that is the case, would it not be granting a licence to Members of Parliament and something else quite different to other people who have done the same thing?
That is an important point, but we are dealing with the Privilege of Members of the House, and this Privilege has been given for a very definite reason. We have been put apart from the people outside because of the danger 'that we suffer from being Members. We are more liable to attacks—in those days it would not usually be by the Crown but by the Executive with a political motive behind it. It is for that reason that this House has been given the Privilege. It is said that we must be careful to consider the point strictly from the existing law with regard to Privilege. If we want to take away from our existing Privileges for goodness sake do not do it by misconstruing the existing law but let us put down a Resolution that we are giving up our Privilege altogether. Do not let us do it under what I think a wrong interpretation of our existing Privileges.
Is not the correct answer to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that this House can deal with an hon. Member in such circumstances?
I agree that that also is part of the answer. Accordingly, I submit that, if the rule is correctly stated by Blackstone, Anson and the present Lord Chancellor, by various Resolutions of the House and by the greatest judges of the past and by the judges in the Wilkes case, there can be no question that this case is covered by Privilege from arrest, and equally surely it is a case of the greatest importance in the interests of Parliament that the Privilege should be vindicated. If the Executive can arrest Members without bringing a criminal charge, or without bringing the Member to trial at all, then the powers of Parliament can be completely destroyed. It is possible that the House gave power in too unqualified terms to the Executive but I do not think it can be maintained that, either intentionally or legally, it gave up its ancient Privileges. That is not the ground of which the Committee has reported.
To sum up what I have said, in my view the Committee has gone wrong from several causes. First, it has failed to adhere to the definition of Privilege from arrest which is established by Resolutions of this House, in Acts of Parliament and by decisions of the courts stated by the greatest authorities, including Blackstone, Anson and the present Lord Chancellor. If the Committee had accepted the recognised definition, the particular case did not fall within the recognised exceptions and Privilege would have been established. The mistake was due to adopting a definition for which there is no authority apart from one casual sentence in Erskine May which, reading the whole paragraph, and his "Constitutional History," it was not his intention to express. Secondly, having misdirected themselves in this, they proceed to assume that the definition does not deal with the concrete case, and they proceed to look at Acts of Parliament to offer alternative constructions from which they proceed to infer that Parliament, particularly with regard to the Protection of Persons and Property (Ireland) Act, had given up part of its Privileges, or at least taken a view adverse to the present case. Surely this is not correct. Parliament cannot possibly lose one of its cherished and ancient Privileges merely on a doubtful inference from an Act of Parliament. If we are going to lose our Privileges, it should be done in a formal manner and as the result of a Resolution of the House.
Thirdly, I think the Committee may have gone wrong in view of the cases quoted by the Clerk of the House with regard to the 1914 Defence Regulations and Regulation 23B of the Civil Authorities Special Powers (Northern Ireland) Act, 1922, though it is true the Committee in their Report do not appear to have accepted these as authorities against Privilege. Seven Members were arrested under the first and Mr. Healy under the second. It should be noted, first, that the seven Members had not taken their seats or the oath, and in the case of Mr. Healy that he had been arrested before becoming a Member. I want to suggest there were good grounds for non-intervention. Provided that we retain the Privilege of the House, it is for Members of the House to say in any particular case whether they are to be asserted or not. There were good grounds for non-intervention, and in any event the Privileges of the House are not lost by non-use in exceptional cases, but only by Resolutions of the House. After I had reached these views I happened to read the famous Dissent of certain distinguished peers following the joint Resolution of both Houses after Wilkes case. They stated that one of the excep- tions should be seditious libel, and Mr. Pitt expressed his disapproval, and certain very eminent Members of the House of Lords entered their famous protest, which will be found in the Journals of the Lords on 29th November, 1763. I should like to quote two or three paragraphs:
I rise only to confirm the uneasiness which has been expressed in all quarters of the House that important and ancient Privileges of Members of the House may be filched away by the back door unless we are very careful. A matter of this kind ought to be carefully considered by the House unless we allow important precedents to establish what will ultimately become an infringement of ancient rights. No one will suggest that Members of the House should be in any way above the law, certainly not in regard to the important matters referred to by the hon. and learned Member for North-East Leeds (Mr. Craik Henderson), namely, treason, felony and breach of the peace. We can agree, on the narrow issue which the Committee of Privileges had to decide, that they have rightly decided, that there is no breach of Privilege, that the activities of the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay) come under one of these three categories, and that, therefore, he is not entitled to any further privilege but there is one point where I feel there is danger.
The Committee of Privileges did not inquire into the reasons given by the Executive for his arrest, and that is a matter which the House ought to consider. Perhaps the time is not now and that it was allowed to go by when the Committee was formed, but we cannot allow this chance to go by without seeing that on another occasion a future Committee is given greater power than this Committee. When I was first elected to the House I tried to learn something about its history and procedure. I got Professor Pollard's "History of Parliament," and I remember that what stuck in my mind was a thing I had not realised before, namely, that this House can act not only in a legislative capacity, but also in a judicial capacity. The mere fact that behind the Speaker's Chair there is a bag which collects petitions from citizens who are aggrieved against something which the House has done is a symbol of the judicial functions which the House still possesses, although it only utilises them on rare and unusual occasions. Here is certainly a case where this House, should anything like this ever happen again, should, when it appoints a Committee of Privileges, allow it to act in a judicial capacity and to examine the reasons which the Executive gives for the detention of a Member.
It has been ruled already that the action of the Home Secretary, whether it was legal or not, cannot be criticised now. That is not before the House.
I am not going to criticise it. I am merely saying that on another occasion the Committee of Privileges should have the right to inquire into the reasons for a Member's arrest. It may be secret and something which Members of the House cannot know, but the Committee should be let into the secret and report whether the matter was all right. The present Committee could not have done otherwise, with the powers that it possessed, than to say that the matter was in order, and the House must now accept the decision of the Committee and the matter must rest there for the time being. We have learned a lesson, however, for future occasions. I want to ask whether the Attorney-General could say what is happening to the salary of the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern.
I am afraid that that is quite out of Order.
I will, therefore, resume my seat and ask the question another time.
I have listened to almost all the speeches today, and I think three out of four have been made by those who are rather inclined to vote against the Report. I thought, perhaps, it would be appropriate for a short speech to be made by somebody who would be disinclined to vote against it. I would not put it much higher than that. I apologise to the House and the Committee of Privileges for not having really studied this Report or looked up the precedents as thoroughly as I normally should, but I have been engaged, under the direction of the House, upon other things which made it almost impossible. There are two or three things which I hope it is fair to say without any very deep study. Firstly, with respect, I am inclined to think that almost all the argument of the hon. Member for North East Leeds (Mr. Craik Henderson) was really misconceived. One way to get hold of a notion of the historical meaning of Privilege is to remember that only very gradually did it come to be particularly connected with Parliament. Rights, liberty, franchise, Privilege—all these words were all interchangeable, synonymous terms, and only very gradually did prerogative come to be stuck to the King's right, and Privilege to our rights, franchise to our constituents' rights, and liberty, broadly, to the general rights of Englishmen; just as with human beings hands can be called hands, with other animals paws, pads, talons, and so on.
If you hang on to that it is easier to understand the historical development of Privilege, and if you take the argument of the hon. and learned Member for Leeds and put "liberty of an Englishman" instead of "Privilege of a Member of Parliament" I think you would see that all he said in defence of the hon. and gallant Member now detained from us could really be said in defence of any citizen of this country. In all the dates he mentioned—1675, 1715, and so on—the courts would have held that it was the liberty of an Englishman not to be arrested except in cases of treason, felony, breach of the peace, and so on. After "peace" they would have added various other things for outsiders; for us they would have stopped there. In no case would they have added what in this particular case is the thing that has to be added. Therefore, the whole of that argument is fundamentally a misconceived argument, and I do not think that very much can be got out of that sort of searching for precedents, because the truth is that our ancestors would all have taken it for granted that we have all of us lost all our freedom, not merely Members of Parliament. Preventative arrest is a thing which would have appeared to them to be completely contrary not only to the Privilege of a Member of Parliament but to the freedom of an Englishman. Now we are in a different situation, and it is that situation which has to be faced.
What I have said does not mean that I am satisfied with the situation in which we are. I hope that the Government will at some time give us a full day to discuss the whole question of detention, both of aliens and denizens, Members and others. It seems to me the whole thing has got into an unsatisfactory state. The position is not as it was in 1715 when, as some hon. Member pointed out, the Statute was to run for only six months. This Statute is to run for—none of us knows how long. But I do not wish to get out of order and I will not pursue that subject merely saying that it is one which in my judgment this House must pursue at some time fairly soon.
I do not feel that I have studied this Report sufficiently to vote against it, but, on the other hand, I have studied it sufficiently to feel rather dubious about some of the things in it. The hon. Member who spoke from the Front Bench below the Gangway drew our attention particularly to the general words in paragraph 26:
There is another part of the Report about which I feel extremely dubious, where it is stated that the Committee was satisfied that the Home Secretary had not acted on account of anything said by the hon. and gallant Member detained from us in his place in Parliament. That seems to be putting it on far too narrow grounds. It is quite an old point. Queen Elizabeth and James I did it—I do not remember the cases now, but I would make a bet to find cases in both reigns. Members of Parliament were arrested and when complaint was made the Executive said, "I know that the Member arrested has been very tiresome in Parliament, but it was not for that he has been arrested, but for something quite different." I should have thought the Committee ought to have satisfied itself not merely that it was for nothing said in Parliament that the hon. and gallant Member was arrested but that, as the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) said, that it was for nothing arising from or in the course of his employment as a Member of Parliament. That is the least that ought to have been done and really, it is hardly satisfactory unless the Committee or its chairman or someone can be told what he was arrested for. It is very difficult for the Committee to be honestly convinced of a negative unless it has some positive.
Then there is the point—a small point but not such a very small point—about whether counsel should be allowed or not. In spite of the frequent interjections of the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) to explain that it was satisfactory, I did think that the argument for refusing counsel was unsatisfactory. I am not sure that counsel ought to have been granted, but I am quite sure that the argument for refusing counsel is hot satisfactory. There was the argument that counsel has not been allowed before, and the Noble Lord went on to tell us that the Clerk's opinion in the matter had no more weight than the opinion of any Member or official. Well, if the Clerk's opinion has not any weight, how does the Noble Lord, or even the learned Attorney-General, or any Member of the Committee, know that there is no precedent? Who has been through all the precedents? I am not sure that it is certain there are no precedents. It is a very difficult sort of negative to prove, and, if we go far enough back into history to talk about whether there are precedents or not becomes meaningless. If we go back to the fifteenth century it was not this House which had the Privilege, it was the Privilege of Parliament, and this House was not the High Court of Parliament, but the other place. Privilege was really effectively granted by the other place on representations from the Speaker and the Front Bench, so that a Member very effectively indeed had counsel in the fifteenth century. But I would not act on the question of precedent, because in my view the whole point and gist and hub of the Committee's Report is that really there is not any full precedent here. In old days there was no such thing as preventive arrest, and if there is no precedent for the arrest then it is a little hard to say that the person arrested is not to have counsel because for that there is no precedent. I think that those grounds for the decision of this Committee against allowing counsel are at least questionable.
I am not concerned in any way with the individuality of the hon. and gallant Member whose case occasioned the sitting of the Committee of Privileges and therefore this Debate. My concern has nothing whatever to do with any views held by the hon. and gallant Member or with any views held by any other Member of this House. This report really concerns the whole of this House as a corporate body, and we should do well to pause before agreeing to its adoption and thereby doing something which would effect the future by creating a precedent acting against the liberties of Members of this House, which liberties indeed are the only things which make this House worth while.
I take the view that the finding of the Committee of Privileges contained in the Report is a wrong finding. I do not believe that the Committee came to the right conclusion on the evidence before it. We are entitled as individual Members of this House, to express our views, and it may be a contrary view, on the findings of one of our own Committees. The Committee of Privileges is not a sacrosanct body, and its word is not a Divine injunction which can never be challenged. It is the duty of any Member who desires to do so to stand up in his place and say why he thinks the Committee is wrong.
I have listened to all the speeches which have been made and I do not want to recapitulate the arguments which have been put forward—much better than I could have done—by other hon. Members. The question of the arrest of a Member of this House has to be taken notice of by this House. We cannot consider questions relating to the application of Regulation 18B, although it may well be that we shall have to alter the existing Regulation. When this House passed Regulation 18B, I believe it had in its mind individually the view that any detention of any Member under the Regulation would have to come to this House under the Privileges which it believed existed. The Committee of Privileges take a different view. In paragraph 15 of the Committee's Report is a reference to two views, a positive case for freedom from arrest and a negative case. The last sentence of that paragraph says: and I believe that in passing Regulation 18B this House believed that if any of its Members were to be charged with any offence under that Regulation, they would be liable to arrest, like any other person, but that this House would have to be told why they were being arrested and upon what charge.
I make no claims for any differentiation between Members of this House and members of the public outside, who do wrongful acts, but I do make this claim, that where a wrongful act is done by a Member of this House, whatever his political faith or however extreme his views, it is the duty and the right of this House to know why the particular Member is imprisoned. We have had reference made to the fact that Members are not free from arrest on criminal charges, etc. In all those cases the charge against the Member is made public. Under these Regulations, the effect of which upon an hon. Member the committee was considering, nothing is made public as to what the charges are, and the committee itself, when it came to the conclusion stated in this Report that there was no breach of Privilege, still did not know with what the hon. and gallant Member was charged. It may well be that legislation is necessary to put that matter right, but I venture to suggest to the House that the committee is wrong, and that by precedents that have been quoted during this Debate, it is perfectly clear that this House has always been of opinion that preventive detention is something which has to be brought to its notice and explained before one of its Members could remain in custody. Therefore, I personally oppose the adoption of this Report.
The hon. Member who spoke just before me referred to the last paragraph of the Committee's Report, which says: House when he was a Member of it. Time after time he has spoken on the subject. He makes it perfectly clear in the speech he made on 15th January, 1924, on the subject of the case quoted, the Cahir-Healey oase—that Members of this House have the rights which I submit they have and which the Committee says they have not with regard to freedom from arrest. He was never called before a Committee of Privileges. No great lawyer has ever been called before the Committee of Privileges to give evidence in this case. But if ever there was a time when the services of a great constitutional lawyer should have been called upon by the Committee to give evidence before it, surely that time was when, they were considering the case of the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern. The chief Law Officer of the Crown is the Attorney-General, who, by Resolution of this House, was unfortunately sitting on the Committee, I think quite wrongly. No great lawyer was brought to give evidence, and I venture to suggest that had the Lord Chancellor come before this Committee and stated his views, they might well have come to a different conclusion.
What grounds has my hon. and gallant Friend for saying that?
It is only my own opinion. If the ease had been that of my hon. Friend the Member for Maryhill (Mr. Davidson), who had been locked up, I should say exactly the same.
I am not the Member for Maryhill.
I should also say the same were in the case of my hon. Friend for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher).
I merely interposed to ask my hon. and gallant Friend what grounds he had for saying that the Lord Chancellor would have altered the decision of the Committee of Privileges. I thought from his statement that perhaps he had private conversation or could bring some evidence to bear on the point. Otherwise, he is making a statement about the Lord Chancellor which will have to be carefully watched.
I said it might well be that the Committee of Privileges would have come to a different conclusion. If my hon. Friend will read what the Lord Chancellor said when he was a Member of this House in 1924, he would see that he expressed a very definite view. The Lord Chancellor would no doubt have indicated to the Committee the grounds upon which he, as a great constitutional lawyer, had come to that conclusion. My hon. Friend who spoke first from the back benches made the point that it is not the individual Privilege of the Memer which is at stake but the Privilege of the constituents whom the Members represent. It cannot be right that at a time like this it should be possible for individual Members to be put into detention and their constituents deprived of their services without the House of Commons knowing why. I suggest that a breach of Privilege has been committed. I believe that nobody has the right to take a Member from this House and lock him up without coming to the House and telling us the charge against him. If this Report is adopted, and if we agree with its last paragraph, we are saying that the Members of this House have no Privilege against preventive arrest. I say they have, and for that reason I say the House should refuse to accept this Report. I do beg Members of the House to clear their minds of any idea that it is a matter of what the individual charged with an offence may have said or done. It is something much greater than that. It is the individual liberty of Members of this House to express their view here and to express their view reasonably outside. If we adopt this Report, we shall in fact be creating a precedent, and it will be much harder in years to come for anybody to stand up for the Privileges of this House.
It is possible, I presume, to alter the Regulations. The reasons for which people can be removed from this House are perfectly good ones. If a Member commits a criminal offence, he is charged in open court. If we acquiesce in the Report of our Committee of Privileges, which says that one of our Members may be placed in preventive arrest without any of us, or even Mr. Speaker, who is the guardian of all our liberties, being told the reason for which that Member has been taken away from this House, then, in my submission, we are doing something which is exceedingly dangerous. We should think twice before agreeing.
The belief of Members is that this matter of the arrest should be investigated by a Committee of the House. I want to make one or two brief observations on the Report before us to-day. At the outset, may I make it quite plain that I do not express any opinion as to whether the hon. and gallant Member was properly arrested or not? For all I know, it might have been most desirable in the public interest that he should have been arrested, or, for all I know, his arrest may have been a foolish and unnecessary act. I have not got the evidence before me, and I do not seek to express any opinion upon it. What I am concerned with is the investigation by the Committee of Privileges and the conclusions reached as a result of that investigation. It is rather a strong thing to say, having regard to the composition of the Committee, but I feel bound to say that, having studied their Report, I am driven to the conclusion that their investigation of the matter has been inadequate. I remember earlier in the Debate someone used the word "tinny." It would seem to till the bill very well. The investigation into the matter seems to have been very "timid."
The hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir I. Albery) drew attention to paragraph 14, to which many other Members have alluded, where the Committee say that the Home Secretary told them that the grounds on which he acted did not arise from anything said by the arrested Member from his place in Parliament. The Committee, apparently, attached great importance to that statement by the Home Secretary; and they say that, therefore, they feel that, as far as freedom of speech is concerned, no breach of Privilege is Committed. It did not need the Committee of Privileges to say that. The Home Secretary had made that statement from the Front Bench more than once before the Committee was set up. It seems ridiculous that the Committee should be asked to investigate the action of the Minister, and then if the Minister says, " No, I did not act for this or that particular reason,'' they should say, "Thank you very much: that settles the case." Surely the Committee Should then have asked the Home Secretary: "What were the grounds for the detention of the hon. and gallant Member?" If they did not know those grounds, it was impossible for them, in my submission, to decide whether a breach of Privilege had been committed. I do not wish to cast the slightest reflection on the right hon. Gentleman who was then the Home Secretary; but I suggest, as a matter of principle, that it is ridiculous to say that a Committee of this House, set up to investigate a matter so important as the Privilege of its Members, should accept the bare statement of the Minister whose conduct was the subject of the inquiry, and should say in effect, "You would not say anything that was not true." That is making a farce of the whole proceedings. I was very much struck by the fact that the hon. Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman), who was a member of the Committee, and who has sought to justify its action, based his case on paragraph 26 of the Report, which says that:
Why should they be so afraid? So far as dangers to the liberty of the people of this country are concerned, there is far more risk in the growing power of the Executive and in its growing influence over this House than in the growing Privilege of ordinary Members of Parliament. I say that shaking generally, not having in mind special war-time legislation. I think that the Debate to-day will not have been in vain in that it will, at any rate, place upon record the fact that there are Members in this House who view with alarm and concern the conclusions to which the Committee of Privileges have come and who dispute the line of reasoning by which they have reached those conclusions. These matters are important. It is true that no future Committee of Privileges or future House of Commons will be bound by a precedent in the strict sense in which a court of law may be bound by a precedent, but they will be greatly influenced by it. It would be most unfortunate if it were to go down undisputed, for the future, that the true view is, as set out by this Committee that, if they are asked to inquire into the conduct of a Minister they should be satisfied by his bare statement without asking him to offer any evidence, on the one hand, and secondly, that, where a new danger threatens the rights of a Member, of Parliament, as a Member of Parliament, it is impossible for us to provide any new Privilege to meet it.
I have listened for a long time to this Debate, and although I have not perhaps the respect that I ought to have for lawyers and the law, yet I have been interested in the constitutional points which have been discussed to-day. One of my difficulties is that of convincing myself whether we are living in the year 1940 and whether there is a war on. It has not been easy to bring that home to myself. The atmosphere has been more like that in a discussion class in connection with our evening institutions than anything else I have experienced before. Although it has been suggested on two or three occasions that Members have not been speaking with any reference to the individual concerned, such a suggestion will not be accepted in the country. The Debate has centred around an individual. It is suggested that nobody knows why he is in such a position that the Committee of Privileges have had to consider the matter. If we can "kid" ourselves that we do not know, we cannot "kid" the public of this country that they do not know why the hon. and gallant Member is in that position at the present time. I have read through the Report, and although I have not looked up the references, I am convinced that, with regard (o the rights of this House and to what the Committee were called upon to decide, that the individual concerned has bad as square a deal as I would want to have.
I believe that I can understand the Report. I do not think it is necessary to be a Cambridge professor or to come from Yorkshire, in order to understand the plain implications of what the Committee were asked to decide and the questions that were put to them. I am just as much interested as any Member of this House in the retention of those things for which democracy stands, but I am concerned that we should not take any action which might assist those who, from outside, are trying to destroy democracy at the present time. We did not pass the legislation under which this action was taken with our eyes shut. All the implications of what the Regulation meant were under discussion and present to the minds of Members, and particularly Members of this side of the House. Who were the Members of the House of Commons in 1715. They did not come from the type of home from which I come. They were not particularly concerned about the things I am concerned about preserving. I wonder why the words "treason, felony and a breach of the peace" were introduced. Generally speaking, of course, in the 17th century they thought they had better put in those words when dealing with the working man, but we are living now in 1940.
Those who read the result of a certain trial yesterday noted perhaps that there is at least one essential difference between 1715 and 1940. An individual was sent from another country to this country to communicate with his own country by means of a little thing which he could put in his pocket and hide almost anywhere—a wireless set. In 1715 they did not need to worry about communications from this country to any other country by means of that sort. Somebody suggested that if there were Ho Privileges left what would be the good of being a Member of Parliament? Well, I do not come to Parliament because of the Privileges one enjoys. Why should I be more free than anybody else? If you are afraid of the Executive using its power to keep down opinion I can only say that opinion has always grown stronger when such a situation has arisen. The whole development of our law has been due to the fact that our Executive has been unable to keep down opinion, when opinion has been able to express itself. It is not dependent on Parliament or precedents that go back to 1715; it is dependent upon the inherent rights which the mass of the people generally will see are observed. I believe that instead of doing a service to Parliament to-day we have been doing a great disservice—particularly to the man who has been detained—by discussing this question in the House of Commons.
When there has been so much talk about Privilege by Members of the House, I think I may claim the unique privilege of having heard every speech which has been delivered to-day. It is, of course, a very important issue and that its importance was fully realised appears from the Report of the Committee of Privileges to whom the House remitted the question. I may begin by reminding right hon. and hon. Members of what many of them no doubt have in mind, that is, the terms of the Act passed by this House under which power was conferred on the Home Secretary. I think that is very important in considering the issue which was referred to the Committee and is now before the House. By Section 1 (2, a ) of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act it was provided that Defence Regulations might be made for the detention of persons whose detention appeared to the Secretary of State to be expedient in the interests of the public safety or the defence of the Realm. The Regulation follows that and, therefore, the form of interference and the basis of interference with individual liberty which we are considering, is an interference based on the pubic safety or defence of the Realm.
It is important to bear in mind that a power of that kind in these days, and indeed for some centuries of our history, if not throughout it, can be exercised by the Executive only if Parliament confers the power on the Executive, and the Executive which exercises that power is responsible to-day over the whole field of its activity to Parliament. If an Executive abuses this power or any other power conferred on it, it can be called to account by Parliament, and if Parliament so decides, it can be dismissed. I think that is a very important background when we are considering the question of Privilege.
The Committee was accused of timidity by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby); it was criticised as having regarded Privilege as static by my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Sir I. Albery); and my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. O. Lewis) delivered a criticism on the same line. Any individual Member, or any body, such as the Committee of Privileges, or the House itself when it addresses itself to a matter of this kind, must bear in mind two principles, on one side and the other. On the one hand, of course, we must guard our ancient liberties and Privileges. We demand that they should be safeguarded, and ultimately we are the guardians of them. On the other hand, we equally owe a duty to the House and to ourselves not to seek to extend Privilege into an area in which it has not been claimed and established in the past. That is not merely a general principle which would be applicable now to any body or caucus of law or principles, but it is something which the House has expressly laid down in a Resolution. In 1704, in a Resolution which had its origin in the other place but was assented to by this House and expressly approved, and which is in our own Journals, it was stated that neither House of Parliament has any power by any vote or declaration to create to themselves any new Privilege that is not warranted by the known laws and customs of Parliament. That Resolution was passed as long ago as 1704 by this House, and, therefore, those who suggest that the Committee should not have treated Privilege as a static thing, but should have said, "Let us do something new, because something not quite similar to what has arisen before has now arisen," are really not having regard to that principle. Not only must the principle be observed because the House has said so, but I think also it would be wrong for us to seek to extend by declaration or vote our Privileges, which are Privileges which exist within the law, and which are not enjoyed by others. The hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Tomlinson) emphasised that point in his short, emphatic and admirable speech.
That being so, one has to see whether there is any precise decision of the House which covers a case of arrest under the words of Regulation 18B or similar words. Of course, it is clear that there is no precise case of that kind in which the House has taken a decision. There are cases, to which I will refer later, in which Members have been arrested and detained under similar powers. This undoubtedly throws one back on principle, and of course, when the House resolved that no new Privilege was to be created, it did not mean that Privilege might not be asserted in new circumstances, provided the circumstances were within the old principle. The question therefore is "What does an examination of what has happened in the past disclose?"
May I here deal with the legal arguments which were put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Leeds (Mr. Craig Henderson)? He took various statements, which are to be found mostly in Sir Gilbert Campion's evidence, in which Privilege has been defined positively and negatively. It is stated that Privilege exists except for treason, felony or surety of the peace. My hon. Friend attached great importance to that, and said that that was the conclusion of the matter. But, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) pointed out, you really cannot draw any such conclusion from this statement. If one were speaking in normal times, when there was no power on the Statute Book for detention for the public safety, one would not of course, refer to the possibility of such a power in resolutions or statements dealing with Privilege. It would not be, at the moment in the picture; therefore, no deductions, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University pointed out, and no real conclusions can be drawn from the form of this statement.
Indeed, as Sir Gilbert Campion pointed out in his memorandum—he puts the same thing in a rather different way—in these two sets of statements. Some say Privilege exists only in civil cases, and others say that it exists in all cases except treason, felony, or surety of the peace. The people who drafted these statements assumed that that exhausted the field. It would be just as wrong to base oneself on the statement of Erskine May as if it were conclusive, that Privilege of freedom from arrest has always been limited to civil cases, and therefore a case is not to be taken, as to take one of the statements in the other form and say that that was an exhaustive statement on the matter. One has to go into the matter rather more deeply as a question of principle. It would, of course, be a curious thing if a Member who was asked to give sureties for the keeping of the peace, were unprotected by Privilege, and a Member who was detained under powers conferred on the Home Secretary for the safety of the Realm were protected. That would be a very curious result at which to arrive. I think the Committee were right in coming to the opposite conclusion. If one traces this matter back into the early mists of our history, undoubtedly its origin was in the King's desire that Members should attend to his business instead of being coerced by their creditors to pay debts. Apparently he thought the former was more important than the latter. The thing developed, and it went through the conflict between the Crown and Parliament in the seventeenth century. It became apparent from early time that Privilege was not claimed by either House as protecting a Member from criminal arrest in the course of criminal process.
What is the broad difference upon which that definition is based? It is, surely, that arrest for debt which has now practically become obsolete, is arrest for enforcement of private rights. Arrest in the course of criminal process is arrest in the public interest, or in the interest of the community. Then you have to ask yourself under which category does arrest provided for by Parliament in the interest of the public safety or the defence of the Realm fall? To a question put in that way there can he only one answer. It does not quite rest there, because I think that that conclusion on principle is strongly reinforced by the action, or if you like the inaction, which has characterised the attitude of the House to oases in the past where its Members have been arrested under powers of this kind.
I do not want to enter into a long argument with regard to the implications referred to by any hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend, and again by the hon. Member for North-East Leeds (Mr. Craik Henderson), which are to be drawn from the, admittedly, somewhat obscure provisions in the 1715 and other Suspension of Habeas Corpus Acts. No one could say that the words there used were the words one would expect if the House had regarded arrest under those Acts as a breach of Privilege. I think on the whole they point to the opposite conclusion. When one comes to the Act of 1881, the Protection of Person and Property (Ireland) Act, the inference is stronger. Under that Act, four Members of this House were arrested. They had taken their seats and the Oath. They were not like the Sinn Feiners in later days. There was a discussion, and a Motion to refer it to a committee was negatived. On the whole, the House took the view of the matter which, I suggest, follows a consideration of the general principle. Then we come down to the Sinn Fein Members. I fully appreciate that there are reasons why people should not have taken a great interest in them as individuals.
Someone suggested that interest was not taken in the earlier Irish Members because they were turbulent and disturbed our proceedings. No one could have said that about the Sinn Fein Members, who never came here at all. You may say that the House was influenced, though it should not have been, by these facts. I associate myself with those who have said to-day that we ought to consider this as a matter of principle, irrespective of whether we like or dislike the views of the Member in question. It would, otherwise, imply that the House on those earlier occasions was so unmindful of their principles that they did not assert the old Privilege because they did not like the man against whom the breach had been committed. I do not take that view. I think the inaction on those occasions is inconclusive, and, therefore, we do not in our Report base ourselves on that inaction although we turned to it after we had considered the matter as a matter of principle, Having considered it as a matter of principle, we say that it cannot be reinforced by what has happened in the past.
There are one or two particular matters on which I would like to say a word. Two or three hon. Members have said that they thought the Committee made a mistake in not allowing the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay) to be represented by counsel. That can, no doubt, be noted by the House for future consideration. I would like to point out, however, that the .Committee of Privileges was not inquiring into the conduct of the hon. and gallant Member. Different considerations may arise when the investigations of the Committee are of that character. The Committee of Privileges was inquiring into a matter of Parliamentary law, custom and usage. It had full power to call witnesses, such as the Clerk of the House or anybody could assist it. It had its own powers for making researches. The Committee of Privileges always has on it many old and experienced Members of the House who are soaked in its privileges, customs and usages. Although it has been usual, and, clearly is right, for that Committee always to allow a Member to appear in whose case it is suggested that a breach has been committed. We are really miles away from the case in which the conduct of a person, whether in a court of law or by a Select Committee, was being inquired into. A good many of the other suggestions in the Debate were not—and the speakers realised it—although in order, strictly relevant to the decision which the House has to take to-day. My hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend referred to the question of the representation of the constituency and suggested, as I understood, that there ought to be some automatic disqualification if circumstances arose in which a Member was not able to represent his constituency in this House or in other ways.
The point I made was that the two matters should meet, that is to say, the question of Privilege should meet the question of disqualification. There should not be a lapse in which a Member could not perform his duties.
They do not meet at present. That is not, however, directly relevant to the question of whether the Committee's Report should be approved. My hon. Friend also referred to the great importance in these days of the representation of constituencies by ourselves as Members, and suggested that, in considering Privilege, we ought to have that in mind. I agree. Privilege has that in mind, of course, although it may have arisen in days when many Members of this House did not represent 50,000 or 60,000 electors. After all, all the boroughs were not rotten boroughs in the old days. The governing principle to which this House has had regard in asserting Privilege and in refraining from claiming Privilege has been the public interest. The great privilege of freedom of speech in our Debates has been asserted and claimed in the public interest. It can be exercised on matters of national importance and also, of course, on constituency matters. But it is, I think, taking perhaps a rather narrow view to fix one's eye solely on that part of our duties which constitutes representation or dealing with individual constituency cases, or, anyhow, to regard that aspect as the key to what is or is not Privilege. In the passage which my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal read out when he moved this Motion, and which is to be found on page vi of the Report these words occur:
"Privilege of Parliament is granted in regard to the service of the Commonwealth and is not to be used to the danger of the Commonwealth."
There is the Resolution of this House, and I am bound to say that I find it difficult to see how one could reconcile with that principle, a decision that Members of this House were free from the provisions which this House has enacted in the interests of the public safety and the Defence of the Realm.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Report of the Committee," put, and agreed to.
Orders of the Day
Railways Agreement (Powers) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That this Bill be now read a Second time."
As the House already knows, the final settlement of the Control Agreement between the Government, the railways and the London Passenger Transport Board has been held up because of the Government's intention to deal with compensation for war damage by means of a comprehensive scheme which, in due course, will come to be applied to railway property. In the meantime, the Measure before us provides machinery whereby modifications of the existing statutory obligations or limitations of the controlled undertakings may be made so as to enable effect to be given to certain essential features of the war-time control of these undertakings. They will enable the parties to comply with the financial arrangements, which were explained to the House in February last and are outlined in White Paper No. 6168.
In that Paper it is stated that the Minister of Transport or the railway companies and the Board jointly may, after the end of 1940, propose a revision of the arrangements if there is some cause of a major character, but whether revision takes place or not, and however further negotiations may modify the existing terms of the Agreement, so long as control in its present form remains, there must be an Agreement, and any Agreement which would meet the necessities of war control, must provide for a single control over all the railways of the country and a pool of railway receipts and expenses. Whether therefore it is the Agreement in its present terms, or in the terms of a year hence, or as altered by negotiation at any time after the 31st December this year, there must be continuity of control and certain fundamental principles must be preserved. If revision is proposed on either side negotiation will, of course, begin and will take their time, but the control goes on. It is a matter of continuity and not of an agreement automatically coming to an end at the conclusion of the year.
The Bill empowers the Minister of Transport to confer upon the other parties to the Agreement, by order, such powers as they require to carry out the Agreement, and it must, of course, be retrospective, since control commenced at midnight on 31st August, 1939. As an essential part of any Agreement must be the pooling of the receipts of the controlled undertakings, it is necessary to confer the requisite powers, so far as these are not already in existence. Section 19 of the Railways Act of 1921 does empower railway companies to make arrangements amongst themselves, not only to allocate traffic but to pool receipts, but that Act was passed before the creation of the London Passenger Transport Board and it is obvious that these powers are not wide enough to cover a similar kind of pooling in respect of the London Passenger Transport Board. This is one of the statutory limitations which, as hon. Members will see in Sub-section (1) of Clause 1 of the Bill, which will be removed by Order made under the Sub-section. This is the first point, and the suspension of limitations on pooling.
Another Order under this Sub-section will deal with trust funds to be set up under the financial arrangements. The companies' maintenance allowances may not, under present conditions, be fully expended, because of shortage of material or for other reasons. The unexpended balances, together with sums received in payment for lost assets not immediately replaced, will fee paid into such trust funds to meet costs of rehabilitation as they arise, probably after the war. The trust funds will be under the joint control of the Government and the controlled undertakings. If Members will look at Sub-section (2) of Clause 1 they will see that it refers specifically to two matters for which powers are urgently required, which will be the subject or further Orders. As regards paragraph ( a ), the London Passenger Transport Act of 1933 established a pool of receipts of the Board and the London suburban lines. When the Government took over the control of the railways, it was found impracticable to continue this pool. This was partly because the whole of the receipts of the Board and the railways were to be merged in the new control pool. There would therefore be no divisions of traffic or divisions of receipts between the parties and the receipts from London Passenger traffic were of course indistinguishable. It was also partly because the fluctuations of working costs between buses, trains, cars and trolley buses would have made it difficult to make a proper adjustment of operating allowances. It is true that the London Passenger Pool is specifically mentioned in the 1933 Act as the security for certain interest payments but the stockholders concerned are not prejudiced by the substitution of the control pool as their new security and there was therefore no necessity on their account to continue the London pool which is merged into the larger national pool.
Paragraph ( b ) of Sub-section (2) will have the effect of bringing the accounting year of the Board into line with that of the main line railway companies. The accounts for the pool set up under the financial arrangements between the Government and the controlled undertakings are made up to 31st December in each year and the balance in the pool at the end of its accounting year determines the position of the parties under the financial arrangements, e.g., whether the Government will have to implement the guarantee or not. It will be readily seen that it is impossible for one body to close its accounts in June and the others in December.
Does the Minister mean that the Government participate only after the £40,000,000 mark has been reached?
The hon. Member knows that the conditions of the Railway Agreement are not raised in this Measure.
No, but the Minister referred to it.
The Government participates, as hon. Members know, after a certain period and a certain amount have been reached. After £43,500,000, the Government participate 50–50, and after £68,000,000 the Government or the country take over the remainder. The Railway Agreement is not raised in this Measure, which is purely an operational one and is necessary to operate the conditions of the Railway Agreement which the House has accepted.
Surely it does enter into this question. It must enter. If the hon. Gentleman is making a statement now as to when the Government participates, the matter must be taken into consideration.
My hon. Friend will realise that I made the statement merely in answer to his question and I was referring to what is known as the terms of the Railway Agreement. That does not alter the fact that the Bill simply provides operational powers which are necessary to carry the Agreement into effect. If the House desires to deal with the Agreement, that is a matter for a Bill directed to that end. I was saying that it would be readily seen that it was impossible for one body to close its accounts in June and the other in December. Steps have been taken for the temporary postponement of the closing of the Board's books and accounts at 30th June last, and the Bill will enable that temporary change to become permanent. Subsection (3) provides for retrospective effect to be given to any order under the Act and Subsection (4) provides that all orders shall be laid before Parliament. Sub-section (5) provides an interpretation of the term "railway companies" so as to include the London Passenger Transport Board. I trust this explanation has made the purpose of the Bill clear to the House.
I am sure that we-are all very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for making clear a difficult and technical subject. Very few Members of the House would have understood it but for the way in which he explained it. The Bill gives very little indication of some of the matters which the hon. Gentleman has outlined. For instance, there is nothing in the Bill which appears to confer power upon the Minister of Transport to deal with the question of trust funds and unexpended balances. Under Clause 1, there are two specific matters upon which the Minister of Transport may make orders, but I do not understand how the Minister will be able to make orders on matters relating to the trust funds and the unexpended balances, within the terms of the Bill. It looks as though the Minister of Transport is proposing to go very much farther than the scope of the Bill. I hope the hon. Gentleman appreciates the point I am endeavouring to make. I see no Clause which would enable him to deal with trust funds.
The hon. Gentleman explained that he was not really dealing with the Agreement at all. I do not understand that, because the Agreement provides for the pooling of the profits among the different companies and London Transport in certain proportions. As I understand the hon. Gentleman's speech, he proposes to seek powers to vary those proportions. He is proposing to abolish the London Transport Board pool. I take that to mean that the proportions of profits between the four main-line railway companies and London Transport will, in certain respects, be altered. Since the Agreement lays down specific allocations between the companies, he is proposing to alter the Agreement in that respect. I do not think the general public or this House will mind that very much. I take it that the profits will remain unaffected, and that all the Bill seeks to do is to alter the allocation. Therefore, no one will mind much except the main-line railway companies and London Transport—except that, under the London Transport Act, the Board has the right to increase its fares if its revenue is not sufficient to enable it to meet the interest on prior charges and on C stock. If, under this Bill it were proposed to reduce the profits of the Board, that might give them a right to apply for increased fares and rates in order to make up the deficit. I hope that if there is to be any alteration in the terms of the Agreement, to the detriment of London Transport, there will be an opportunity for making representations on the subject, and that the Minister will not make any variation of the Agreement without taking into full account all the representations that may be made.
There was one point which the hon. Gentleman did not explain. Clause 1 states that this Bill is being presented for the purpose of enabling the Minister to make an Order in respect of agreements which the railway companies may make with one another. It also refers to agreements with him. I would like some explanation of the sort of agreements that the railway companies may make with the Minister and not with one another. If any one company can make an agreement with the Minister of Transport, as appears to be the case from Clause 1, without reference to the other companies, it appears that that itself may involve an alteration in the manner in which the Bill will be carried into effect. Since this Bill does, in fact, vary the Agreement which has been entered into with the four main-line railway companies and London Transport, I am very disappointed that other variations have not been introduced. The hon. Gentleman knows that in the near future we may anticipate an application from the Railways Executive Committee to the Minister for an increase in railway rates, on the ground that railway costs have increased, and that under the terms of the Agreement, as it stands, the Minister will be bound to increase railway charges if he is satisfied that railway costs have increased. Under the Agreement, he will not be allowed to take into account the fact that railway revenue may have increased by an even greater amount. That is one of the main injustices of the Agreement, and it has not been dealt with under this Bill.
I do not think that, on this Bill, we ought to go into suggestions for alterations of the Agreement.
This Bill is for the purpose of altering the Agreement. I thought that I was in order in suggesting other ways in which the Agreement might have been altered.
The House adopted the Agreement some time ago, and the Agreement has nothing to do with this Bill.
This Bill alters the distribution of the total revenue among the different companies, and to that extent makes a very important alteration in the Railway Agreement.
It is an alteration of the Act of 1933, but not of the Railway Agreement.
Surely, it is going to alter the proportions of the companies and the London Transport Board out of the pool?
No, Sir.
It must have that effect.
That was decided in 1933–62 per cent. to the London Passenger Transport Board and so forth.
With all respect to the hon. Gentleman, he is proposing to alter the Act of 1933. He is proposing to abolish the pool laid down in 1933, and some of the proceeds of the pool of 1933 are going to the other companies. I submit that the effect of this Bill will be to alter the share of the total revenue which the railway companies and the London Transport Board are to receive. If it does not do that, I do not see the purpose of the Bill at all. It must be for the purpose of altering the distribution of the profits; it can have no other object. Therefore, I am disappointed that, as that important provision has been altered in the Agreement, other provisions have not been altered too. The hon. Gentleman referred to the fact that it was possible to alter the Agreement before 31st December, and I hope that he will seriously consider its alteration in the few days that are left before 31st December.
In the explanatory note attached to the Bill it states:
"To enable railway undertakers under the control of the Minister of Transport to make agreements with him"—
and this is the relevant passage.
"and with one another providing for financial matters arising out of, and in connection with, such control."
I respectfully submit that that raises the question of the financial arrangements which are in existence and also the question of the running of railways. If that is so, surely we have rights, within limits, to ventilate the ideas of the people, concerning the financial arrangements and the running of the railways. If that interpretation is accepted, I wish to make a few observations upon it. We would be lacking in our duty if we allowed this Bill to pass without making a few observations upon the arrangements which are in existence. I admit right away that the whole of the employés on the railways are carrying on under great difficulties and strain at the present time.
The hon. Member is going far beyond the scope of this Bill. It really does not affect the original Agreement approved by this House. This Bill would have had to be brought in whatever happened.
I would certainly take note of that, Mr. Speaker, but at the same time I would like you to be good enough to note that it states:
"providing for financial matters arising out of, and in connection with, such control."
Surely, on reading that, you will be bound to come to the conclusion that the financial arrangements that are in being would be in order on a Second Reading Debate.
It certainly would not be right on every occasion on which a matter like this is to be discussed in Parliament to discuss the whole question of the original Agreement which was granted by Parliament.
Surely, within reasonable limits it would not be out of order to discuss the whole of the financial arrangements based on the explanatory notes upon this Bill and to raise such a question as I am attempting to do?
Reasonable limits are difficult to define. One Member may think something is a reasonable limit and another may think it is not and when one gives way on such a question it is difficult to stick to reasonable limits.
As this Bill does make financial arrangements with regard to different companies, is not an hon. Member entitled to express an opinion as to how this re-arrangement will affect the running of a particular railway or a particular beneficiary under the arrangement?
Naturally, an hon. Member is entitled to discuss how this particular Bill will affect the arrangement between the Ministry and the railway but he is not entitled to discuss the original Agreement made on the authority of Parliament.
Would it be in order to raise the question of the running of the railways at the present time?
That has nothing whatever to do with this Bill.
Is it not in order to discuss what should be in the Bill?
There again we come up against the question of what are reasonable limits? Certainly it would not be in order to discuss on this Bill, within reasonable limits, how the running of the railways must take place at the present time.
But when any Member or organisation thinks that for the successful prosecution of the war it is necessary for the railways to be run on different lines at the present time, is it not reasonable to discuss that?
It might be reasonable but not on this Bill.
Then I shall look forward of being able to discuss this question at an early opportunity because it is in the interests of the country and the successful prosecution of the war to consider the question of the running of the railways at the present time.
I intervene in this Debate simply because of the limits which have been placed upon us by the speech of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary. I think it could have been made perfectly clear. If there is to be this financial pool, he could have elaborated in his opening speech how this rearrangement would affect the interests of each of the participants in the pool. In my opinion, when the London Passenger Transport Board have an alteration made with regard to the amount of their percentage to be pooled, it must definitely affect their running expenses and general policy. The same remarks apply to the London and North Eastern Railway Company and the London Midland and Scottish Railway Company and the Parliamentary Secretary could, at least, have done us the courtesy of stating whether there would be a considerable or inconsiderable effect on the general well-being of the people employed by the separate companies participating in the pool. Because of the very great importance of this aspect, I ask my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, in his reply, to indicate whether there will be any change with regard to the general conditions affecting the participants in the pool.
I wish to ask a question with regard to the London Passenger Transport Board. Are we to understand that there is to be a change in the allocation of the percentage receipts between London Transport and the four main-line railways? As at one time Parliament definitely determined what the proportions should be as far as the main-line companies were concerned, how would such a change be carried out under the new arrangement? I also understood my hon. Friend to say that the accounting period of the London Passenger Transport Board is to be changed. As far as I understand, there is no change operationally. Why is such a change necessary now, in view of the fact that there is no change in the accounting arrangements so far as the various companies are concerned?
In reply to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Anderson), the change is necessary because of what is determined by the settlement of the accounts at the end of the accounting period. I have mentioned already the fact that the relationship between the finances of the railways and the possibility of the Government sharing or otherwise is involved. It was found to be quite impracticable to have two separate accounting years for the sections of what is now a united Government control.
I appreciate the desire of my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) and other hon. Members to make a case against the Railways Agreement. That is a very big thing, and I think the hon. Member for Peckham and other hon. Members do not appreciate that this is an Agreement which was made by negotiation, and explained in as great detail as was possible at the time in the White Paper No. 6168. For the reason I have already given, it was impossible to embody the whole of the arrangements in that White Paper. It is now a question of the general principles of the Railways Agreement which has been sanctioned by the House. There is no alteration in the terms of the Agreement. The London Transport pool is transferred to or merged in the larger pool—the pool of the main-line railways plus the London Passenger Transport Board—and fids is embodied in the Bill now before the House; but the allocation of the receipts, the proportions in which the various companies and the Board will enjoy the receipts, is a matter which has been dealt with before and a question of negotiation.
I can assure hon. Members that, as far as the Ministry of Transport is concerned, we shall keep an eye upon the conditions of labour with regard to the London Passenger Transport Board and the other companies. But really, these questions are not involved in the Bill, which simply confirms, or indeed regularises, what have been working arrangements already accepted by the various parties to the agreement. The scheme is working because of war emergencies and because of Government control. So long as that control exists it is impossible for the accounts of the Companies or the Boards to be kept separate, or for the "pool" conditions to remain as they are. All this "pool" does is to give legislative sanction to matters of practical organisation of governmental control of the railways made necessary by war circumstances.
Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time.
Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—( Mr. Boulton. )
Bill accordingly considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.
Local Elections and Register of Electors (Temporary Provisions) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Colonel CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]
Clauses 1, 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule
I beg to move, in page 5, line 5, at the end, to insert:
"Section One.—At the end of the Section there shall be inserted the following Subsection:
(2) Where in the case of a councillor a vacancy has been filled and an objection to the person elected has been made before the expiration of seven days thereafter to th Minister of Health, it shall be within the power of the Minister, if he is satisfied that the maintenance of the status quo as between parties is not being observed, to declare the election of the said person null and void and to order a fresh election."
I find myself placed in a very difficult position because I have only, a few minutes in which to ventilate this point which I regard as highly important. It was discussed yesterday, and relates to the filling of vacancies on local councils. What is it that should be done with a local council upon which the sitting majority is not prepared to play the game, as is indicated in the provisions of this Bill? Obviously it would not be a criminal offence. You cannot put them in gaol, or have them incarcerated in the Tower, however much they may deserve punishment of that character. What is the remedy for these aggrieved persons, or parties, who are defrauded of their real rights by a predominant and unscrupulous majority V it is perfectly clear that such an authority, where the predominant authority as not prepared to play the game, will he breaking the law the moment this Bill becomes an Act of Parliament. If my Amendment is accepted, the aggrieved party will have a clear remedy and will be able to obtain justice. The Minister argues that there would be very few cases arising, but I think that if my Amendment is accepted, there will be still fewer. I want to know what is the objection to having these words inserted.
Neither I nor the hon. Member for Central Bradford (Mr. Leach) have adequate time to deal with this Amendment; but I think it is a case where the remedy suggested will be worse than the disease which, it is intended to cure. We have had very few instances where disputes have arisen. Generally speaking, local councils have carried out both in the letter and the spirit the understanding arrived at at the time that the 1939 Act was placed on the Statute Book, that is to say, that they would co-opt a new Member of the same political complexion as the Member causing the casual vacancy. The hon. Member's suggestion would enable one single objector to bring the matter before the Minister of Health, who would then have to inquire whether A was a good Conservative, a good Socialist or a good Liberal as the case may be. These are not rigid creeds. They vary according to locality and according to time, and hon. Members know how difficult it is, in judging even of our colleagues in this House, to say to what particular creed they belong at any particular moment, and there are occasions when Members cross the Gangway or cross the Floor and their political allegiance becomes somewhat wobbly. I think it would place an impossible task upon the Minister of Health to have to enter into these local controversies. It is a duty which I do not think any Minister of Health would care to perform, and it would involve a very large constitutional difficulty in bringing an executive body into the machinery of even the co-option of local government representatives. I am afraid, therefore, I cannot ask the Committee to accept the Amendment.
In the circumstances I have no option but to withdraw the Amendment. There has been no proper discussion of the matter. My speech would have made it a quarter of an, hour longer if I had said all there was to say.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule agreed to.
Bill reported without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.
Scottish - Fisheries Advisory Council Bill [Lords.]
Considered in Committee, reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Naval and Marine Forces (Temporary Release from Service) Bill
Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders wire read, und postponed.
Adjournment
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—( Mr. Boulton. )