asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the serious difficulties which have arisen in securing personnel to distribute food, coal and milk, he will consider scheduling those industries as protected establishments?

No, Sir. I am satisfied that the admission to the Register of Protected Establishments of the industries mentioned would not be of material assistance to them in overcoming any difficulties which may have arisen in securing personnel.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very desperate situation in some food shops which are unable to secure assistants? Is he aware also that one co-operative society in my constituency has advertised in six separate newspapers for assistants and cannot get any, and that in the end it is quite possible that the customers will have to serve themselves in some shops?

On the last point, I would say that they may get better weight if they serve themselves. But that question put to me is whether I will make these shops protected establishments. My answer is that that particular Order would not help them.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is not a question of short weight, but of long waits? There is need for the reservation of some men in provision shops, as some of the heavy weights to be lifted, such as sides of bacon, cannot be handled by women staffs.

I quite agree, but my answer is that that particular Order would not help that.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that there is no discrimination between large establishments and small establishments, bearing in mind that a small establishment sometimes experiences difficulties which a large establishment does not?

There has been the closest collaboration between my Department and the distributive trades, and the instructions which have gone out provide for consultation. It is intended that the arrangements shall not deplete distributive personnel more than we can help.

asked the Minister of Labour whether collective bargaining on behalf of the employees has been accepted by Trent Guns and Cartridges, Limited, arising out of the report of the court of Inquiry, Cmd. 6300?

I regret that the company has not yet indicated any change in its attitude. I am in consultation with the Ministry of Supply on the subject.

Does not my right hon. Friend think it intolerable that in wartime an employer should defy public opinion by refusing to consult with a trade organisation for protection of his workers? Will my right hon. Friend not take drastic action?

Yes; but the question relates to one firm out of thousands in the country. The point is whether I can deal with this matter through the contracting Departments without the necessity of other legislation, and I am in consultation with the Minister of Supply on the matter.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the fact that, at a time where there is everywhere an acute shortage of all categories of labour and earnings are at their highest level, the misleading character of the Return of 16th June, showing nearly 250,000 wholly unemployed, is demonstrated, he will take advantage of there being a non-party Government to introduce a form of statistical presentation more illustrative of the true position?

The significance of these figures has been explained on a number of occasions, and I cannot agree that as now presented they are either incorrect or misleading. Substantially, the only change that could be made would be either by suppressing some of the details and thereby giving an opportunity for unscrupulous misrepresentation, or by ceasing publication altogether.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the number of cases involved, the hardships which result to the persons affected and their families, and the loss of work which ensues in some of these cases, he will abandon the practice of prosecuting workers who are fined and imprisoned for failing to take up work on the directions of Employment Exchange officers, and rely on the voluntary principle instead?

Directions are issued to workers only where the national interest requires. There is a proper machinery of appeal so that a worker who feels aggrieved by the issue of directions in his case can have the whole circumstances reviewed by an independent tribunal. If, in the light of the recommendation by the Appeal Board, it is decided that the directions should be enforced, the worker must know that he is breaking the law if he disobeys. I cannot agree to refrain from prosecution in such cases. I would add that only in a relatively few cases is prosecution necessary. I acknowledge the public spirit with which the vast majority of workers accept directions given to them.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the position, in view of the fact that when he compels men who are already on work of national importance to go down into the pit and reduce their wages by £2 or £3 a week he cannot possibly get willing co-operation from them? Why cannot he rely on the voluntary principle?

If the House of Commons had thought that the voluntary principle would have met the necessities of the war, they would not have carried the Resolution directing me to direct workers where they were required. This House passed that Motion, and I carry it out in the national interest.

But the House of Commons gave the right hon. Gentleman power to prosecute employers, too. He has not done that?

Yes, I have.

He has not sent any of them to gaol.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the irritation caused by the privileged position occupied by conscientious objectors detailed by the tribunals for agricultural work as compared with other agricultural workers and, in particular, with men in the armed forces of the Crown employed in agriculture, as they cannot be compelled to work overtime, and if they start at 7 a.m. they cease at 3 p.m., less three-quarters of an hour for refreshment plus half-an-hour for travelling if at a distance from work, while other agricultural workers with whom they may be employed have to continue at work until dusk without these special privileges; and whether steps will be taken to place conscientious objectors under some form of military discipline capable of controlling their work?

The National Service Acts provide that men may be registered as conscientious objectors conditionally upon their undertaking work specified by the tribunal, of a civil character and under civilian control; there is no reason why such men should be in a privileged position as compared with other workers. If my hon. Friend would give me particulars of any cases that he may have in mind, I would look into the matter. The suggestion that some form of military discipline should be applied in such cases does not seem to me to be a practicable one, quite apart from any question of principle that would be involved.

I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for what he says; but is he aware that, so far as I am able to find out after having seen some of these men, no one has any control whatever over them? Does he not think that, having been excused military service, they should be under some discipline to make them discharge the agricultural service which the tribunals have allotted to them?

I have no evidence to bear out the suggestion contained in the question. I do not think I should be asked to give a reply unless I am sent evidence that these men are not carrying out their obligations.

Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been called to an advertisement in an evening paper in which a theatrical association are asking conscientious objectors to apply to them for employment as male dancers?

I have to read so many papers that I have not time to read the advertisements.

asked the Minister of Labour his policy with regard to the transference of domestic staffs to war work; and, in particular, whether it is his intention that women, engaged on work of public importance, shall be compelled to give it up through being entirely deprived of domestic help at home, if their staffs happen to be young, while people still employing excessive domestic staffs consisting of older persons can retain them all?

Generally speaking, no woman in the registered age groups, engaged in domestic service, will be required to transfer to other employment if she can be shown to be essential to the household. Women in the older age groups will be dealt with in the same way when they are registered.

asked the Minister of Labour whether the rehabilitation scheme announced in August as under consideration has yet come into effect; and what part of the Ministries of Health and Pensions have played, and will play, in its preparation and working?

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can make any statement with regard to the development of his plans for the rehabilitation of workers invalided from the various services back into industrial life; how many men discharged as unfit have received or are receiving training; and how many have so far been restored to normal industrial activities?

As stated in answer to the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Dobbie) on nth September, the interviewing of disabled persons in hospital has already been started by my Department. This has been undertaken in co-operation with the various Departments concerned and the hospital authorities. A leaflet describing the interim scheme for the resettlement and training of disabled persons has been prepared and as soon as this is ready for issue I will make a public announcement. In regard to the second part of the Question of the hon. Member for Central Southwark (Mr. Martin), I regret that no such statistics are available.

Is my right hon. Friend assured that the: duty of seeing rehabilitation methods employed during treatment in hospital is being carried out so as to lessen the work of doing it after workers have left the hospitals?

I would ask my hon. Friend to await the publication of the interim scheme, and I would also emphasise the fact that it is an interim scheme. We are consulting with my right hon. Friends of other Departments in order to develop the thing into a wider and more national and fixed scheme.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the large number of men in the area where I live who are disabled by silicosis will be brought under the aegis of this scheme?

In the interim scheme the guiding principle will be as to whether they can be made fit for the purposes of other war work. But I am afraid that the wider question must wait for the wider scheme after further discussion with my colleagues.

asked the Minister of Health whether he can make any statement on the progress of the schemes for the recuperation, training and rehabilitation of persons injured in the defence, fighting and production services; and how many persons have so far been treated under these schemes, and with what measure of success?

I am sending my hon. Friend copies of the circulars which have been sent to hospital authorities, setting out the arrangements for the treatment and rehabilitation and for securing the subsequent training of fractures cases, including persons injured in the defence, fighting and production services. Numbers of patients have been successfully treated at centres which have already been in operation for some time, but detailed figures are not available.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion of the total number awaiting treatment have been treated?

No, Sir, I could not.

Is the Minister satisfied that there is the fullest possible co-operation between all Government Departments affected in this matter, and are steps being taken to get voluntary institutions to co-operate?

Undoubtedly, and I am doing the best I can on my side to make sure that there is an increase in the facilities concerned. The hon. Gentleman and the House will understand, however, that it is not merely a question of facilities but of skilled treatment too.

asked the Minister without Portfolio whether, in view of the large number of persons hurt, disabled or discharged in respect of the different services, including Civil Defence and production, he will consider the rapid development of the clinical and training schemes for their benefit into a comprehensive service, including a State medical service, on a permanent basis?

In regard to the development of clinical and training schemes in present circumstances, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers to his Questions Nos. 21 and 29 to my right hon. Friends the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Health respectively. The Government are giving close consideration to the question of the development of the existing arrangements for the rehabilitation, training and resettlement of disabled persons with a view to framing a comprehensive scheme to meet conditions after the war.

asked the Minister of Labour what is the number of workers normally employed in the tinplate trade in South Wales that are unemployed; and what steps are being taken to provide them with work?

The latest information available shows that in the South Wales tinplate industry 181 men and 131 women were unemployed. As indicated in my reply of 31st July, 1941, the use to be made of these workers is a matter in the first instance for the local Labour Supply (Iron and Steel) Committee. It is for that body to arrange, so far as is practicable, for any unemployed tinplate workers to be placed in employment in the iron and steel industry as provided for in the special scheme. The remainder will be placed in other work of national importance.

asked the Minister of Labour what investigations have taken place with a view to adapting the idle tin-plate works in Wales for the purpose of war production; and, having regard to the fact that these works were so adapted in the last war, whether he will take steps to secure that they are used in the nation's war effort?

The position has been fully investigated by the Production Executive Regional Board for Wales, and by all the Production Departments. It has not hitherto been found possible to use any substantial proportion of these works for war production, but all steps will continue to be taken to see that no possible opportunity shall be overlooked and further investigation of a proposal to use some of the works is now being made.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will direct that any notes of evidence, findings of fact and recommendations, communicated to a National Service officer by a local appeal board, constituted under the Essential Work (General Provisions) Order, 1941, shall be communicated also to the applicant and to the other party interested?

No, Sir. In my view the Orders already provide for doing all that is necessary in the matter of communicating to the parties concerned the decisions arrived at after hearings by local appeal boards.

As the final decision is a decision of the National Service officer and not of the local appeal board, is it not only fair that the parties to the dispute should be aware of what recommendation has been made?

In many cases the final decision is my own, and we have to remember that the appeal boards make, not decisions, but recommendations, and the evidence in many cases has to be reviewed. Therefore, I do not think that it is wise to circulate anything more than has been circulated at the moment.

Are they not miscalled "local appeal boards," and should not they be described as advisory committees?

That is a matter of opinion. I think we have got it well understood now that, in industry generally, where the auxiliary procedure exists on a similar basis—and it has been extended to the law—the words "appeal board" generally apply. While it may appear sometimes a little illogical in industrial affairs, the men and employers understand what it means, and that is why it works.

As they can decide nothing, is not this—

rose.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is prepared to grant free railway passes to transferred workers, under the Ministry of Labour schemes, for occasional visits to their homes; and is he aware that the present arrangement of settlement between the employer and the workpeople is completely unsatisfactory, as the bad employer gets away with it while the good one does the right thing?

I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply given on nth September to the hon. and gallant Member for Lewes (Rear-Admiral Beamish). If it is alleged that an employer is not observing agreed conditions there are appropriate remedies which can be applied.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that John Irwin, a coal-bagger employed by the Westhoughton Industrial Co-operative Society, an ex-miner, has been passed as medically fit to return to work underground at the direction of his department; that the man was gassed in the great war and has undergone six operations; that he had to leave his employment in the pit some years ago on three occasions on medical grounds suffering from miner's cramp and sciatica; and will be cancel the direction in this case?

I am having inquiries made and will communicate with my hon. Friend.

If the right hon. Gentleman finds that the statements contained in my Question are true, as I can assure him they are, will he withdraw the direction in this case, as there is no sense in sending this man back to the pit?

I will wait and make sure.

On a point of Order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Reply to this Question—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Oh, yes—

The hon. Member has put a question to the Minister which is purely hypothetical.

The fact that the Minister says that he is making inquiries is unsatisfactory, in my view, Mr. Speaker.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can now make a further statement as to progress in the establishment of factory canteens?

At the end of July there were canteens selling hot meals at approximately 4,000 factories, including shipbuilding yards, but excluding other canteens and refreshment houses at docks and canteens at building sites. In addition such canteens were being established at about 750 factories. Canteens at building sites numbered 46c; and dock canteens, in so far as they could be distinguished from other refreshment houses at docks, were reckoned at 70, with 37 more in course of establishment. As stated in my Reply of 7th August to a Question by the hon. Member for Wallsend (Miss Ward), factory canteens have recently been coming into actual operation at the rate of about 100 a month.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether there is an equal meat ration available at every canteen or whether there is some differentiation as between the canteens used by workers in the heavy industries and the canteens used by workers engaged on lighter industrial work?

I must refer the hon. lady to the new announcement which was made yesterday by the Ministry of Food.

I apologise.

Is my right hon. Friend giving priority to coal mining canteens, as they are far more necessary than many of the other canteens?

The coal mines canteens do not come under my Department. They are being dealt with by the Board of Trade and by my hon. Friend the Secretary for Mines.

asked the Minister of Labour whether vacancies for junior and temporary appointments in all Government Departments are now all filled through the medium of his Department?

I presume my hon. Friend is referring to appointments in Government Departments. So far as I am aware, the rule that such appointments should be filled through the agency of my Department is now generally observed.

Does that rule apply also to the British Broadcasting Corporation; and in filling such vacancies in that Corporation is an endeavour made to employ older women?

I would like notice of that question.

asked the Minister of Labour how many trade boards there are under the Trade Boards Act, 1909; how many workers are governed by the boards; and when the last annual report was printed and obtainable?

There are 52 trade boards covering approximately 1,500,000 workers. The latest available report is that contained in the Annual Report of the Ministry of Labour for 1938, published in May, 1939.

Are the trade boards now functioning in any way?

Oh, yes, very effectively; and I have improved and increased the inspectorate.

Are there any new ones under consideration at present?

I cannot say.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will institute an independent inquiry into the claim of the Oxford Group to be put on the same footing as other religious bodies in respect of military service?

No, Sir.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it desirable in the public interest to state the reasons for the decision he has come to in regard to this Group?

I do not think that there is any more reason why I should state my reasons for this decision than for the millions of other decisions I have made.

Is is not true that the Minister has stated his reasons, and that those reasons are illogical?

I understand that the matter is going to be raised in Debate, and I think the House will be satisfied that I have acted rightly.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has received any report from the committee presided over by the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs on distribution of medical man-power, or when such report may be expected?

Yes, Sir. An interim report has been received and action is being taken on the recommendations. These include suggestions for the establishment of regional committees to promote the maximum co-operation between civil and service medical establishments, the continued recruitment for the time being of medical officers for the Forces at the rate at which they are now being recruited, the compilation of particulars of bed accommodation and staffing for all civil hospitals and measures to secure greater mobility of resident medical staffs as between one hospital and another.

Has this report been passed on to the Central Medical Board?

I should like notice of that question.

asked the Minister of Health when the annual reports of his Department and of his principal medical officer for 1939–41 will be issued?

I hope that the summarised report to which I referred in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) on 3rd July last will be ready within the next two months. In accordance with the general decision to suspend the issue of Departmental reports not immediately essential to the war effort, the regular series of reports of the Department and of the chief medical officer will be suspended till after the war.

Will the main figures of the principal medical officer be put in the report, so that they can be compared with the previous year's figures by the large number of people concerned?

I will do my best.

asked the Minister of Health whether his medical advisers, who are pressing parents to have their schoolchildren inoculated against diphtheria, will give statistics of how many inoculations are necessary and for how long a period immunity is understood to be secured; and whether his Department accepts responsibility in the event of any mishap, fatal or other, arising from the inoculation?

Immunisation of children against diphtheria necessitates two, or at most three, injections of the prophylactic. It is considered that immunity, once established, persists for years and perhaps for life. The answer to the last part of the Question is "No." As my hon. Friend is aware, inoculation is carried out only with the written consent of the parent of guardian of the child concerned.

If the facts with regard to this policy are as nebulous as the Minister suggests in his Answer, what is the value of the policy?

I think my Answer was very precise. My definition of "nebulous" disagrees with that of the hon. Member, but I think I have the dictionary on my side.

Is it not true that the right hon. Gentleman does not know how many inoculations are necessary or how long an inoculation lasts?

I have said two or three, and I cannot be more precise than that.

asked the Minister of Health whether, as many general practitioners, especially in neutral and reception areas, are seriously overworked owing to the calling up of their medical colleagues yet are debarred from securing the assistance of alien doctors in their private practices, he will consider changing the regulations to permit alien doctors, who have been accepted for the War Emergency Register, to engage in private practice under such conditions as may be thought necessary to protect British doctors, such as the limitation of the permit to the duration of the war, and, if necessary, the restriction of the permit to doctors required to work as assistants to, or partners of, British doctors?

Under a recent Order of which I am sending a copy to my hon. Friend, an alien doctor who fulfils the other necessary conditions may be placed temporarily on the Medical Register if he is to be employed as an assistant to a British doctor in private practice. The employment is in each case subject to the approval of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what steps should be taken by a doctor who wishes to secure the services of an alien doctor?

He would take the normal steps which are suitable to the profession, but if he was in doubt, he might write to me.

Is it not true that the Central Medical War Committee undertake these arrangements if they are passed to them?

asked the Minister of Health to what does he attribute the increase in tuberculosis; how many people suffering from tuberculosis in Britain are waiting admission to sanatoria; and is the increase in non-pulmonary tuberculosis higher in areas where pasteurised milk is unobtainable?

I have arranged for a special inquiry to be made, with the assistance of the Medical Research Council, into the causes of the war-time increases in tuberculosis. The latest information available shows that on 30th June last there were 1,763 persons in England and Wales who had been on local authority waiting lists for institutional treatment for upwards of 10 days. The information referred to in the last part of the Question is not available.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that these 1,700 people suffering from active tuberculosis in this country are a source of danger to their families, and can he say why he permits this state of affairs and does not bring pressure to bear on local authorities?

The hon. Lady is under a misapprehension. We are doing a great deal about this, and we are making arrangements to realise some E.M.S. beds. It is not merely a question of beds, however, but of nurses. This is still one of our most serious propositions.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that unless he pays the nurses more there will be a dearth of nurses?

I think the hon. Lady is mistaken, because, as she knows, conditions are different now with regard to the payment of nurses. Since I have been Minister we have taken immediate steps about the Civil Nursing Reserve; other hospitals have followed that lead, and I am about to set up a central committee on rates of pay as recommended by the Athlone Committee.

Will my right hon. Friend see that the Government give a lead as to what the proper standard of nursing should be?

My hon. Friend knows that the Athlone Committee reported two years ago on this matter and that I have taken steps to bring all the parties together. I hope to make an announcement as to the actual composition of the committee in a few days' time.

asked the Minister of Health to what extend the Sudbury, Suffolk, Rating Committee, are doing work for the Health Department Valuation Committee; whether he is aware that the Sudbury Committee pay some of their young clerks 13s. per week; whether this authority has a valuation officer; and what action he intends taking about the matter?

I have made inquiries, but I cannot find that there is a Departmental valuation committee such as is referred to. I am informed that the only person employed by the rating committee is a clerk who is employed at a salary of £35 per annum on a part-time basis. The answer to the third part of the Question is in the negative. The matter is not one in which I have any authority to intervene.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that at present a tenant who leave premises damaged by aid-raids, while the local authority carries out the necessary repairs, has no right of reoccupation of those premises when the repairs are completed; and will he take steps to remedy this flaw in the legislation covering the rights of tenants?

I would refer my hon. Friend to Section 1 (6) of the Landlord and Tenant (War Damage) (Amendment) Act, 1941, which provides that the Court may grant possession to the landlord of a house rendered unfit by war-damage only after three months have elapsed since the property was rendered fit and during the whole of which period the tenant has not been in occupation and has paid no rent.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he has now received Treasury sanction to apply the principles of the Determination of Needs Act to awards of need pensions to parents; when the new scales will be put into operation; and what steps are being taken to acquaint those affected by the amended basis of awards?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the Questions put by the hon. and gallant Member for Accrington (Major Procter) and the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Dobbie) on nth September, a copy of which I am sending to him.

asked the Minister of Pensions, whether he has now obtained Treasury sanction for the payment of home treatment allowances at the full rate for the first two weeks of treatment in cases where treatment continues beyond that period?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is now in a position to make a statement in regard to award of pensions for death or disablement of members of the Forces resulting from accidents whilst off duty or on leave, and in respect of death or disablement resulting from disease regarded as constitutional, of which there was no evidence at time of embodiment in the Forces or prior to it?

The subject of death or disablement of members of the Armed Forces resulting from accidents whilst off duty or on leave is still under consideration. With regard to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to a similar Question by the hon. and gallant Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner) on 3rd July, a copy of which I am sending to him.

asked the Minister of Pensions what rate of compensation under the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme is paid to a gainfully employed single woman in the event of her losing an arm owing to enemy action while employed in a Government factory; and what rate of compensation would be paid to a single man under the scheme in the same event?

The rate of the life pension which would be awarded to a gainfully occupied single woman under the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme in respect of the loss of an arm as a result of a war injury would vary from 12s. 1d. to 19s. 4d. a week according to site of amputation and whether the right or left arm was involved. The corresponding rates for a single man would be from 17s. 1d. to 27s. 4d. a week.

Is my right hon. Friend of the opinion that this State differentiation in the payment of men and women is likely to encourage women to volunteer for work in factories?

I stated the case very fully in the recent Debate in the House, which lasted a whole day, and I have nothing to add to that.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the variation in the rates paid to men and women is much too wide, and will he not reconsider the matter, because there is no justification for this great disparity?

My answer is exactly what I said before. I stated the case fully on that occasion, and I have nothing more to add.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he will inform the House as to the difference in amounts between the pension of 100 per cent. down to 5 per cent. paid to members of the Armed Forces who suffered disability in the 1914–18 war and those who suffer the same percentage disability in the present conflict; and will he also give the reason for the difference?

The difference between the present rate of pension for a private soldier and that payable under the Royal Warrant of 6th December, 1919, varies proportionately to the degree of disablement from 5s. 10d. a week in the case of 100 per cent. down to 1s. 2d. a week in the case of 20 per cent. Pension is not payable for disablement below 20 per cent., which is compensated by a gratuity, or an allowance for a limited period, or a combination of the two. The reason for the difference between the rates laid down in 1919 for great war cases and the new war rates is that the former were related to a higher cost of living figure.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the disappointment in many homes, and the general feeling against the practice held by large numbers of people in the country, he will now take the necessary steps to abolish the application of the means test to the parents of those who lose their lives in the country's cause, when such parents make a claim for pension?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to a similar Question put by the hon. and gallant Member for West Bromwich (Captain Dugdale) on 26th June, a copy of which I am sending to him.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the continuance of the means test in relation to this matter is causing considerable discontent and that hon. Members were informed some time ago that it was the intention and, indeed, the decision of the Government to abolish the means test? Why is it being continued in this form?

The hon. Member is entirely wrong. There is no such thing as a means test—[Interruption.] I have adopted the provisions laid down by Parliament for dealing with the question of need, and what I have done has been in accordance with what the House has ruled.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he will consult with the Assistance Board with a view to arranging that service pensions to dependants granted under the term of Royal Warrant to persons receiving grants from the Board are disregarded in assessing the allowances from the Board?

I am consulting with the Assistance Board to see whether there is any matter requiring discussion between the two Departments.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that somewhat queer reply—[Interruption].

There are more things queer than the reply.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the increasing cost of living, he will give sympathetic consideration to the position of the pensioners and war widows of the war of 1914–18, and increase their pensions accordingly?

The rates in question are related to a cost-of-living figure in excess of that now obtaining and there are accordingly no grounds for any increase at present.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware of the disappointment caused by his decision not to set up regional appeal tribunals till after the war, and the apprehension of those involved that this will lead to overwhelming arrears; and whether he will reconsider the matter with a view to the immediate establishment of the necessary local or regional machinery?

I have nothing to add to the statements I made on this subject in the course of the Debate on the Motion for the Adjournment on 16th July and again during the Debate in Committee of Supply on the vote of the Ministry on 31st July, when I explained why a general system of appeals to independent pensions appeal tribunals would be impracticable at the present time.

Are we to understand from the Minister that he is making no progress with his colleagues in the Government in giving effect to his own desire to have these tribunals set up?

I have been awaiting the report of the Committee dealing with the question of the supply of doctors, and I have been in consultation with my Advisory Committee on other matters relating to this. I am not losing any time in dealing with it.

Does this mean that the Minister will have something to add at a later date?

I have already stated that I am in favour of appeal tribunals. For one thing, they would take the responsibility off my shoulders, and would save many Questions in the House.

Will the right hon. Gentleman speed up this matter, as there is growing feeling in the country on the subject?

Will the Minister consider carefully setting up some machinery in Scotland, as there is a feeling that under the present arrangements the distance is rather great?

I have asked the Was Pensions Committee in Scotland to investigate every case of complaint, and report to me. I am certain that I could not do anything better than that.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he has formulated his promised proposals for augmenting the modified pensions granted to widows under the Great War Royal Warrants?

Yes, Sir. I have been authorised to make additional grants to these widows under the same conditions as would appertain if they were eligible for supplementary pension under Section 9 of the Old Age and Widows' Pensions Act, 1940.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that police pensioners who have returned to the service for the duration of the war have not been granted the cost-of-living bonus; and whether he will make arrangements for the same cost-of-living bonus to be paid as is paid to other grades of the police?

Re-engaged police pensioners continue to receive their pensions in addition to their pay, and in these circumstances I have not felt justified in recommending police authorities to grant them the supplementary allowances payable to the regular police.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that police officers who have been retained in the service after the completion of full service have not been granted the cost-of-living bonus; and will he make arrangements for the cost-of-living bonus to be paid?

The point which my hon. Friend has in mind is that when supplementary allowances were granted, an allowance of 12½ per cent. which had been previously granted to certain officers was reduced by the amount of the new supplementary allowances. The 12½ per cent. had been payable to men who but for the war would have been entitled to retire on pension at the maximum rate and had been granted for the purpose of reducing the inequality between their position and that of re-engaged pensioners who receive their pension as well as their pay. When this inequality was mitigated by the grant of supplementary allowances there was no justification for giving these retained men both the supplementary allowance and the allowance of 12½ per cent.

asked the Home Secretary whether he will arrange for the 1914–1919 war service in the Armed Forces to count as approved police service, in the same way that other Government Departments and other concerns have, or allow the ex-service men who joined the Force between June, 1919, and August, 1921, whose conditions of service were altered under the provisions of the Police Pensions Act, 1921, extending their period of service from 26 years to 30 years, to qualify for a full pension at 26 years?

I am advised that the effect of the relevant enactments is that war service in the Armed Forces during the last war counts as approved police service for pension purposes. As regards the second part of the Question, under the Police Pensions Act, 1921, the 30-year scale of ordinary pensions applies to all men who joined a police force on or after 1st July, 1919, and I have no power to waive this statutory provision.

There are some reasonable grievances arising out of these Questions. Will my right hon. Friend undertake personally to meet the Police Federation in order to go into these matters?

The Police Federation are in regular contact with the Home Office. I have met them already on a number of points, and, of course, I shall be prepared to consider my hon. Friend's suggestion; but there is existing contact between the Police Federation and the Department.

That is so, but in view of the reasonable grievances and of the contribution which these men have made to the services of the State, will my right hon. Friend himself be prepared to meet the Police Federation on these questions?

I will consider that, but I must look up how far the points have been discussed. I do not, however, accept the view that these are reasonable grievances.

asked the Home Secretary whether he proposes to introduce legislation during the next Session to give effect to the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on Police Widows' Pensions?

The Committee's recommendation is under consideration, but I am not at present in a position to make any statement as to the prospects of legislation.

Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that before any legislation is introduced there will be the maximum consultations with the Police Federation?

The report is already before the Police Federation for their observations.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can give any figures showing what assistance farmers have recently received from the military, from schools or from any other source of auxiliary labour supply?

The detailed arrangements for the employment of soldiers, schoolchildren and other forms of auxiliary labour have been made locally, and precise figures are not available. A very considerable amount of assistance has been forthcoming from these sources, however, and I am grateful to the many thousands of workers who have come forward, and to the school authorities, Commanding Officers and others concerned for their ready co-operation.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of the feeling prevalent in the industry that a certain percentage of farmers' sons have obtained Army exemption, although not previously engaged on agricultural work; and whether he will take measures to prevent a continuance of this practice?

It is certainly generally accepted that men of military age who are not genuine agriculturists must not be allowed to shelter in agriculture. County war agricultural executive committees already have instructions to recommend the calling-up of such men. If the hon. Member knows of any individual cases, I shall be glad to have them investigated.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the large number of farmers being dispossessed of their farms and dwellings on the ground of inefficient husbandry, he can state that no farmer is dispossessed if his failure to farm efficiently is due to inability to afford the necessary equipment; whether the farmer dispossessed has any right of appeal to a judicial authority; and what steps, if any, are taken to re-absorb the dispossessed farmers in useful agricultural work?

No farmer is dispossessed solely on account of his inability to afford the necessary equipment. There is no right of appeal to judicial authority, but each case of intended dispossession is dealt with in accordance with the procedure explained in the Reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Sir J. Mellor) on nth September. In certain instances where the Executive Committee has taken possession and is farming the land the previous occupier has been retained in the Committee's employment, but in any other case there should be no difficulty in obtaining employment elsewhere on agricultural work which he is competent and willing to undertake.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the first part of his answer completely evades the first part of my Question, which asked "whether, in view of the large number of farmers being dispossessed of their farms and dwellings on the ground of inefficient husbandry, he can state that no farmer is dispossessed if his failure to farm efficiently is due to inability to afford the necessary equipment''? That Question was not answered.

On the contrary, I answered it. Either the hon. Member did not hear me, for which I apologise, or he did not pay attention. In my first sentence, I said "No farmer is dispossessed solely on account of his inability to afford the necessary equipment." That is the most specific answer it is possible to give.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he says that no farmer is dispossessed solely on account of his failure to afford the necessary equipment? I did not suggest he could be dispossessed solely on that ground, because inefficient husbandry must accompany it.

That is the question which I answered.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that in many cases, where tenacies are terminated by him on the ground of bad husbandry, the landlords, having paid no compensation for disturbance, are able to re-let to approved tenants at increased rentals; that the new rentals are often substantially higher than the average for existing tenancies of similar farms in the district; and whether he will take steps to prevent landlords from obtaining undue advantage from his intervention under emergency powers?

I have no information which would bear out the statements in the first and second parts of the Question.

Will my right hon. Friend consult with the county war agricultural executive committees in order to test the accuracy of my assertions?

I think it would be best if my hon. Friend would let me have any cases he has in mind.

Does not all this trouble arise because the farmers in England and Scotland do not own their farms?

No, Sir. I think it is the other way round. One of the main difficulculties at the present time is the fact that such a large number of farmers in England and Wales bought their farms after the last war and in the interval have been short of capital for that reason.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is taking every step in his power to prevent the proposed call-up, on 1st October, of 10,000 farmworkers, whose presence is urgently required on the land for ploughing and other purposes?

My hon. Friend will now have seen the recent announcement that the proposed call-up has been deferred until after the end of November.

Has this matter been considered by the War Cabinet, and further, how is it possible for any industry, whether agriculture or any other, to satisfy the demands made every day by Ministers for greater output if they have not the necessary labour?

The decision was a decision of the Government.

Although the decision is deferred until November, does not the Minister see that next year we shall have to consider this matter? From where will he produce the farm workers?

There will be an opportunity to consider the matter again before the end of November.

asked the Home Secretary whether he has considered the resolution carried by the Executive Committee of the Mineworkers' Federation, asking that the "Daily Worker" be allowed to be published and circulated, a copy of which has been sent to him; and will he state his intentions on the matter?

Yes, Sir, but I have nothing to add on this subject to the reply which I gave to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth (Mr. G. Strauss) on 24th July last.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that statement was made some 10 weeks ago? Has he any reason to think that the Communist party is not genuinely behind our war effort now, and is it not better to have a 100 per cent. movement forward for the prosecution of the war and to allow then to publish this paper?

I stated at the time, and I can only reiterate it now, that the view of the Government is that the Communist party is not loyal to this country.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that the Mineworkers' Federation prefer to think otherwise? Has he made up his mind now to defy the decision of the Mineworkers' Federation?

I do not know what constitutional doctrine my hon. Friend is advancing, but he had better think about it before pursuing it.

Is the Minister expressing the opinion that the friends of Hitler were loyal to this country? Is it not the case that there is no legal reason why the "Daily Worker" should be suppressed at the present time?

asked the Home Secretary whether there is any means by which a German or Austrian refugee from Nazi oppression, whose registration certificate has not been endorsed to that effect, may obtain such an endorsement on his certificate?

Any German or Austrian who claims to be a refugee from Nazi oppression and whose certificate is not so endorsed may submit an application to the Home Office, and any such application will be considered.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that there are a number of Germans and Austrians, not interned, who desire to apply for the alteration of their present classification under Category B; and whether there is any procedure for making such application?

Yes, Sir. I do not think the numbers are large, but I should certainly be prepared to consider an application from any such person to be released from the special restrictions imposed by Articles 6A and 9A of the Aliens Order. I should, however, like to make it clear that in many cases these restrictions were deliberately imposed upon the release of the person concerned from internment, and it is unlikely that I should feel myself able to remove the restrictions in cases of this kind.

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that a friendly alien may not own or have access to a bicycle, while a British-born wife of such an alien may own a bicycle, husband and wife, in such circumstances, are permitted by the police to travel on a tandem bicycle; and, if not, will he consider amending the regulations in order to permit a friendly alien, married to a British-born wife, to share his wife's machine?

The fact that British-born wives of aliens have been exempted from the requirement that aliens must get a police permit for the possession of vehicles does not imply that it would be equally safe to exempt all aliens who have married British-born women. It is open to any alien to apply to the police for a permit, but there is a clear distinction between granting permits in individual cases where the police are satisfied that there is a case for such a concession and granting a general exemption to a whole class of aliens including persons to whom permission would be refused if the case came up for individual scrutiny.

asked the Home Secretary whether he can make a statement in regard to the escape of the three interned men in the Isle of Man, and the subsequent disturbances that took place in the internment camp?

asked the Home Secretary whether he has any statement to make to the House in regard to the recent disturbances in Peel Camp, Isle of Man?

I will, with Mr. Speaker's permission, make a statement at the end of Questions in answer to these Questions.

During the night of 17th September, three of the persons detained in pursuance of Defence Regulation 18B in Peveril Camp in the Isle of Man effected their escape by tunnelling from the basement of one of the houses under the barbed wire fence. The men were recaptured by a naval patrol which found them in an open fishing boat off the coast of the island and brought back to the camp at about 6.30 p.m. on the evening of Saturday, 20th September. They were lodged in the detention cells and are being prosecuted before the Manx courts on charges connected with the theft of the boat. When these charges have been disposed of I propose to transfer them to a prison on the mainland, where they will be detained under closer supervision.

The recapture of these men and the manner in which they were dealt with on their return to the camp was the immediate occasion of the disturbance. It was not possible to conduct the prisoners to the detention cells without exposing them to the view of other persons detained in the camp, and a number of these persons made a demonstration of welcome. The officer-in-charge of the camp refused an application of some of the inmates that a meal should be sent to them from the camp. These men had been given a meal on the patrol boat, but this was not known to the men in the camp, and a story was spread that the three men were being starved. These circumstances appear to have caused a feeling of resentment, and after dark this found expression in a considerable amount of shouting and stone-throwing at buildings in the vicinity of the camp. The extent of the disorder has been exaggerated in many of the published accounts. No assault was directed against any individual, and although damage was caused to windows, only two persons were very slightly injured. The Commandant of the internment camps on the island was summoned and on his arrival he sent for the camp leader, warned him of the seriousness of what had occurred and made it plain that the disorder must cease immediately and complete silence be maintained for at least an hour before he would listen to any representations which the. men might wish to make through their leaders. Complete quiet was at once restored, and after the lapse of an hour and a quarter he met the group leaders, who told him that the demonstration was due to resentment aroused by the treatment accorded to the recaptured men. The Commandant explained that the men in question were, in fact, being given a meal, and sent the group leaders back to the camp with another warning against any further disorder. The rest of the night passed without incident.

On the following day my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, who happened to be on an official visit to the island, when making a round of the camp was followed by a group of the inmates, who made abusive remarks, though no violence was offered to him. Since that date there has been no disorder in the camp, and there is no foundation whatever for published statements alleging further riots and drunken brawls. Nevertheless, I cannot but take a serious view of the lack of good order and discipline evidenced by these occurrences. Persons detained under Defence Regulation I8B are detained for preventive and not for punitive purposes, and it has been the aim of the administration, in accordance with the wishes expressed from more than one quarter of the House, to make the conditions of detention as little irksome as possible. But it is an essential condition of the greater freedom of movement and association in an internment camp that the persons detained should themselves undertake a large measure of responsibility for the maintenance of good order and discipline. This principle of self-government is that on which the administration of all our internment camps is based.

The recent disorders were limited to a section of the camp population, and while, owing to the darkness, it has not been possible to identify the ringleaders with certainty, I have already ordered the removal to a prison of a number of persons likely to cause trouble in the camp, and I shall not hesitate to use this measure freely. Indeed, if any class of persons abuse the privileges I have indicated, the alternative must be confinement in prison establishments. The immediate necessity is to restore a sense of discipline in the camp and to take effective steps to prevent any repetition of these disorders. Hitherto the inmates have been subject to the control of military personnel, who are not by their experience and training accustomed to deal with disorders by unruly mobs. I have accordingly decided to reinforce the military personnel by a detachment of Metropolitan police, who have already arrived in the island and will be available to assist in the maintenance of good order and discipline in this camp. In addition, I have carefully considered the question whether any of the privileges enjoyed by the inmates of the camp should be withdrawn because of the misbehaviour of those of them who took part in the disorder. As I have explained, it has not been possible to identify these persons with certainty, and there are objections to the imposition of a collective punishment on a whole community for the misbehaviour of only a section. Nevertheless, the disorder cannot pass unnoticed, and I have directed that the issue of permits for visits by relatives and friends to this camp shall be suspended for a period of four weeks from the date of the disorder and that for a similar period certain amenities, such as visits to the cinema and concerts, shall be withdrawn.

These measures will, I hope, be effective in securing the maintenance of that standard of discipline and good order which is essential. I can, I am sure, rely on the House to support me in any further measures of a more drastic character which I may consider necessary.

Has my right hon. Friend any information as to the kind of implements which the men used for the purpose of digging the tunnel and as to where they got them from?

I cannot be certain, but I think that they may be garden tools which they would have been using in the course of their work.

Are not a large proportion of the people interned at this camp Irish Republicans, and should they not be segregated from the others?

There are some Irish Republicans. I cannot give the number on the spot, but even Irish Republicans are of varying degrees of temper and temperament. We did exercise discrimination as to who should be there and who should be elsewhere, and we will take that into account in considering the persons to be transferred to prison.

Has my right hon. Friend any information as to the statement in the Press this morning that prior to these riots many thousands of bottles of beer were sent to the camp and that they could get as much beer as they pleased?

They do not get as much beer as they please; I do not think anybody does nowadays. I am bound to say that the published accounts have in many cases been very exaggerated and sometimes a little inventive. Therefore, the House should allow for a little romanticism in these stories.

In view of the seriousness of these reports, can my right hon. Friend take any steps to deprecate or to prevent in future exaggerated statements of this character appearing in the Press?

I am not sure that that is a matter in which I can very well plead security as a reason for interfering with the Press. These are little difficulties which we have to put up with and explain as we go along, and I do not think I can do more than I have done.

My right hon. Friend spoke of the prosecution of those who escaped, for the offence of stealing a boat; is there not also an offence of attempting to escape, and will they be put on trial for that?

That can be considered, but as I have power to transfer them to prison under the Defence Regulations, I doubt whether it is worth while to proceed with a prosecution