House of Commons
Wednesday, April 29, 1942
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Anglo-Egyptian Relations
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make regarding the declaration by the Egyptian Prime Minister, on 21st April, expressing his loyalty to the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty.
Yes, Sir. I have studied this declaration, which accords with His Majesty's Government's view of their Egyptian Ally's obligations. I welcome the opportunity to express my appreciation of the terms in which the Egyptian Prime Minister affirmed, not for the first time, his intention of co-operating with this country and its Allies within the framework of the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty, and of safeguarding the interests of the Imperial and Allied Forces in Egypt.
Royal Air Force
Combined Exercises, Wiltshire (Accident)
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he has any statement to make in regard to the killing of a brigadier, 22 officers and men, and the wounding of about 60 others at Imber, Salisbury Plain, on Monday, 13th April.
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can now make a statement about the recent accident in Wiltshire?
This regrettable accident occurred during an exercise arranged by Fighter Command for officers and other ranks of Home Forces in order to demonstrate the effect of fighter aircraft firing at ground targets. Attacks were made on dummy troops, a lorry convoy and tanks dispersed as targets in three lines. After five Hurricanes in turn had successfully attacked, the sixth fired at the spectators' enclosure in mistake for the allotted target, with the deplorable result that 25 Army officers and other ranks were killed, while 68 Army officers and other ranks and three R.A.F. officers and airmen were injured. The findings of the Court of Inquiry have now been received, together with the recommendations of the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Fighter Command, and are being considered by the Air Council in consultation with the Army Council.
Mobile Canteens
asked the Secretary of State for Air how many mobile canteens operated by voluntary organisations are officially recognised and given permits to enter Royal Air Force Stations and other establishments?
As the issue of permits allowing mobile canteens operated by voluntary organisations to enter Royal Air Force stations and other establishments is made by the local station commanders, and hot by the Air Ministry, it would not be possible without extensive inquiries to state the number of permits issued.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that in these days it is necessary to give extra food to Service men through mobile canteens, which involves a great use of petrol and tyres?
These mobile canteens visit only places where there is no static canteen or N.A.A.F.I., and I am advised that they do afford useful service.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire again into this matter, when he will find that these mobile canteens do visit Royal Air Force stations where there are canteens?
Is it not a fact that these mobile canteens are very useful to night fighter squadrons when there is no N.A.A.F.I. available and that they are very much welcomed?
There are some stations, it is true, at which there is a mobile canteen, but in those cases they serve only light refreshments, and I know there is a feeling in the Royal Air Force that they are rendering to them, and I believe also to anti-aircraft units, very useful service.
Is it not a fact that these men ought to be kept fighting fit, without any of these finicking questions being raised?
Army and Navy Co-Operation
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can indicate, in general terms, the nature and extent of co-operation between the Royal Air Force and the Army at the present time, particularly with regard to the work of Army co-operation squadrons?
Royal Air Force squadrons co-operate with the Army in reconnaissance, spotting, close support and such other tasks as may be agreed upon by the commanders in the field. For specialised duties, Army Co-operation squadrons are allotted to Army Commands and are attached to particular formations with which they train and operate. These squadrons are assisted by light bomber squadrons and by fighter squadrons which are specially detailed for the purpose and trained in Army air support with special emphasis on the attack of battlefield targets. Strategic support is afforded by other units of the Royal Air Force and when suitable opportunities occur all the available resources of the Royal Air Force are used for Army support. In order to facilitate the closest co-operation between the two Services and foster a mutual understanding of requirements, officers are interchanged between Army and Royal Air Force formations, and pilots and other aircrew have a short tour of duty with Army units before they complete their training.
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can give any indication as to the extent of development of co-operation between the Royal Air Force and the Navy during recent months, particularly as to the expansion of Coastal Command activities and the co-operation of bomber squadrons with naval units?
As I indicated in my speech introducing the Air Estimates on 4th March, co-operation between the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force is already close and effective. Nevertheless, it is our constant care to improve it. I need not, I think, stress again the efficiency of that co-operation at home. The activities of Coastal Command are expanded consistently with the claims of overseas requirements, and play a growing part in the Battle of the Atlantic. The entire strength of the Bomber Command is available for co-operation with the Navy when suitable opportunities occur, and in fact for the 12 months ended February, 1942, about 50 per cent. of the targets engaged by Bomber Command were naval or were attacked directly at the Admiralty's request. In theatres of war abroad recent reports testify to the co-operation between the Navy and the Royal Air Force.
Has any complaint been made by the Navy, for instance, about lack of co-operation between the Royal Air Force and the Navy?
I do not know what the hon. and gallant Member means by complaint. The most recent expression of opinion by a naval officer actually commanding operations was in Ceylon, when he signalled that certain suggestions that had been made about lack of co-operation of the Royal Air Force with the Navy in Ceylon were unfounded, adding:
"Whenever Royal Air Force cover has been asked for, it has been given, and there is complete co-operation between the two Services."
Bombing Policy (Military Objectives)
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether the intensified bombing operations over Germany, including the attack on Lubeck, have involved a departure from the previously declared policy of His Majesty's Government that such operations would be confined to military objectives?
The policy of His Majesty's Government is unchanged. It is to destroy the enemy's capacity to make war, by bombing his war factories, means of transport and military stores wherever they may be found. Lubeck and Rostock, which have recently been attacked, are ports vital to the enemy, now that the Baltic ice is breaking, for the supply of his armies in North Russia, Finland and Norway, and for the Swedish iron-ore traffic. Lubeck is also a training centre for submarine crews, an industrial city and a warehousing centre for military stores. Rostock is the seat of the great Heinkel aircraft works. The effect of our attacks upon these targets should prove-of particular assistance to our Russian Allies.
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the pictures in the Press, presumably permitted by our Minister of Information and Propaganda, of the very terrible sights in Lubeck apart from any military objective? [HON. MEMBERS: "What about Bath?"] Has he also seen what was done in Bath and in Norwich, and can he do something to prevent all this destruction?
Has the hon. Member not heard of the pictures we have of the damage in our great cities, and does he know how the morale of our people is inspired when they see that something similar is being done elsewhere?
The best way to prevent this destruction is to win the war as quickly as possible.
Has the value of these bombing expeditions, great as it evidently is, been balanced against the value of the use of the same aircraft to protect our Atlantic convoys?
Certainly, Sir.
Air Training Conference, Ottawa (British Delegation)
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will publish the names of the Delegation to be led by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State to the forthcoming Air Training Conference at Ottawa?
The following are the Air Ministry members of the Delegation to be led by my right hon. and gallant Friend, the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Air (Captain Balfour) at the forthcoming Air Training Conference in Ottawa: Canada, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald) will be a member of the Delegation, as well as Air Vice-Marshal McKean, the head of the United Kingdom Liaison Mission in Ottawa. Representatives of other Departments may be added later to the Delegation which will be assisted by a limited number of advisers.
Air Training Corps (Recreational Facilities)
asked the Secretary of State for Air what arrangements have been made with local authorities to ensure that Air Training Corps units are granted adequate sport and recreational facilities including opportunities for Sunday games?
The use by the Air Training Corps of sports and recreational facilities provided by local authorities, who I am glad to say have generally been most helpful, is a matter for arrangement between local units of the Corps and the local authorities concerned. The question of the use of playing fields on Sundays is, of course, a matter for each local authority to decide.
Has my right hon. Friend received any complaints about units of the A.T.C. who have been refused the use of playing fields by local authorities?
Any complaints which are received will certainly be given the closest attention. We are most anxious to help A.T.C. units in such circumstances, and if my hon. and gallant Friend has any cases in mind, I shall be very glad if he will bring them to my notice.
Questions
Aircraft Production (Factory Administration)
13, 14 and 15.
asked the Minister of Aircraft Production (1) whether machine No. 1074, which arrived, on 31st August, 1941, at a North-West factory, the name of which has been supplied, has yet been made ready for delivery; and, if so, on what date;
(2) whether he will state the reason why a firm in the North-West, the name of which has been supplied recently, dismissed its aerodrome superintendent; and whether he proposes to apply the Essential Work Order in this case;.
(3) whether he is satisfied with the production of an aircraft factory in the North-West, the name of which has been supplied, during 12 months ended March, 1942; how many managers have left since August, 1941; and whether he will inquire into allegations of general bad management and waste of public money?
I am making inquiries and will write to my hon. Friend.
asked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether his attention has been drawn to paragraph 122 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General; what is the name of the company referred to; and whether the necessary steps have been taken to reserve adequate deliveries of this gun?
Yes, Sir, I have read paragraph 122 of the Comptroller and Auditor-General's Report. Apart from the fact that it is contrary to normal practice to give the names of firms dealt with in such reports, there are security reasons for not publicly identifying firms engaged on the manufacture of important munitions. The answer to the last part of the Question is "Yes," Sir. This firm, which, incidentally, is not the only one making this gun, has an excellent production record.
Have any steps been taken to compel this firm to disclose all the costings of production of this gun? Were any further steps taken to penalise the firm for standing in the way of the war effort?
No, Sir. Their production has been extremely good. There was a complication in this firm because they have a very large foreign shareholding and personnel, but we have issued a direction which not only enables us to see the books, but enables the present directors of this firm to be able to have that as a proper excuse if they ever have to deal with their foreign shareholders and directors.
Were the foreign shareholders all friendly foreigners, or are there others who may not be so well disposed towards this country?
On a point of detail like that I should like to have notice.
asked the Minister of Aircraft Production why, in certain aircraft factories, the name of one of which has been given him by the. hon. Member for Gravesend, three times the number of girls necessary are employed in checking spare parts for aeroplane engines and that the working hours are 40¼ per week; and why the girls are kept for 47¼ hours in order to qualify for overtime above 40¼
The women at the factory in question are being trained as assistant examiners in the inspection of radio equipment, and this explains the numbers employed. 47¼ hours is the normal working week of A.I.D. staff.
Is it a fact that overtime begins before 47¼ hours and that the people concerned have no work to do during the extra time?
When people are largely employed on training it is a question whether the training should not go on during that extra time. The normal time of work is 47¼ hours, but, according to the pre-war times of civil servants and others, overtime is paid for anything in excess of 40 hours.
Is the Minister having inquiry made in regard to the discouragement and frustration which arise in the minds of these women, who are anxious to work and who resent being kept idle in the factory?
I will certainly make inquiries, but I must point out that a large proportion of the people are there for training purposes. When they are trained as assistant examiners they are posted to other factories to take on a full job. If they are not fully enough employed, I will certainly make a fuller inquiry, and I will certainly see that they are.
Building Development (British Visit to United States)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings what decision has been reached with regard to the sending of representatives to the United States; what are the names of the persons nominated, the purposes of the visit, and its proposed length of time?
As I informed the hon. and gallant Member for Buckrose (Major Braithwaite) on 20th July last, the Ministry have had under consideration the question of sending to the United States a representative delegation to study building developments there. An inquiry of this kind would have particular reference, of course, to post-war needs; and my Noble Friend is of opinion that the time is not yet ripe for the despatch of such a delegation. Meanwhile, there is need for early information, not now available in this country, regarding training and education, both of operatives and management, in the building industry in the United States; and Mr. G. A. Jellicoe, F.R.I.B.A., a part-time member of the staff of the Ministry, is being sent to the United States for the purpose of obtaining this information. Mr. Jellicoe will be instructed also to make a preliminary examination into methods of prefabrication and standardisation. It is intended that Mr. Jellicoe shall spend eight weeks in the United States.
Does not the Minister think it really ludicrous that one gentleman should be expected to find out all this information in eight weeks? Rather than waste his efforts in this direction, might he not stop at home and study the map?
That point has been considered, and it is thought desirable that this man should go. From well-informed circles on the other side I am advised that he will be welcome.
Is it not a fact that it would normally take three or four men three months to do what this one visitor is supposed to do in eight weeks? Will it not make us look very ridiculous in the eyes of the Americans if we send one man to do this very serious job in this time?
I can only answer my hon. Friend by saying that a representative delegation is a matter which will receive favourable consideration later on.
Could we not put this visit off for a time? Is it not a very foolish proceeding and a waste of time and effort?
It is not considered so.
Railings Removal
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings why the Royal parks, which were recently liberated from iron railings, are now being surrounded by barbed wire?
As I informed the hon. Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison) on 25th February, I am advised that the barbed wire in question is a necessary part of the defensive arrangements of the area and that most of it would have been erected whether or not the railings had been removed.
Is my hon. Friend aware that the enemy would find it easier to get through the barbed wire than to get over the railings? Will the Ministry, whose duty it is to protect the amenities of the Royal parks against unnecessary injury, look into the matter again?
When will the Ministry be getting some common sense about the removal of railings? Will they not consult the military authorities before taking away railings and replacing them with barbed wire and iron stakes?
The only answer I can give to both my hon. Friends is that there is a need for this scrap metal.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings, why the railings, in the case of Mr. W. Marsh, Albert Cottage, High Holborn, Sedgley, Staffordshire, were commandeered, as he is unable to prevent his vegetables being pilfered with out these railings?
The railings were scheduled for requisitioning by the local authority under the direction of the Minister of Supply. If the hon. Member will furnish me with particulars, I will make inquiries.
Government Departments
Ministry of Works and Buildings
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings the approximate number of persons in his Department now working on post-war problems, and how many of these are below the age of 40?
The number of persons employed at the present time in the Planning Department of the Ministry and in the Directorate of Post-War Building is 56 (29 men and 27 women) of whom 31 (9 men and 22 women) are below the age of 40.
Would it not be better if these nine men were to do war work?
I naturally attach importance to the work which the Department is doing. I am sorry that my hon. Friend takes an adverse view, but I think these men are doing very useful work.
Are there not probably hundreds of men beyond military age who could do the job, and will the Minister not look into the matter again?
Does my hon. Friend appreciate that persons of these age groups usually employed by local authorities have been liberated and called up? In the circumstances is it not ludicrous that men in the same age groups should be retained?
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings the approximate total number of persons now engaged in connection with the work of his Ministry?
The total number of persons employed by the Ministry, excluding industrial staff, is 13,510.
What do the 10 do?
Look after the 13,500.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied that the policy of the Ministry of Works and Buildings being responsible for the erection of all new civil works and buildings required by any other Government Department has been followed by the other Departments, and that the Ministry of Works and Buildings has full responsibility now for the erection of all such new works and buildings?
The statement of policy to which my hon. Friend refers contemplates that the Ministry of Works and Buildings should be responsible for the erection of all new works and buildings for the civil Departments, including the Ministry of Supply. This policy has been steadily pursued, and the Ministry is now generally responsible for all such work, except for a certain amount of work still carried out by the Ministry of Supply. The statement in question excluded work for the Service Departments and for the Ministry of Aircraft Production, but laid down that the Ministry might arrange, by agreement with those Departments, to take over on their behalf new works and buildings not of a highly specialised character. The Ministry is, in fact, now carrying out a certain amount of work for those Departments and is in negotiation with regard to further work.
Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the other Departments have acted upon the instruction of which he informed this House, in the spirit in which he obviously gave it?
Yes, Sir; I am satisfied.
Would it be worrying my right hon. Friend too much to ask him to look into the facts, to see whether they are as he has indicated?
If the hon. Member has any information to the contrary, perhaps he will bring it to my notice, and I will look into it.
Why should the onus always be put on Members? Cannot Ministers sometimes make inquiries for themselves?
Will the instructed to reduce the excessive professional charges allowed by other Departments?
That is obviously quite a different Question. Perhaps the hon. Member will put it down to the appropriate Minister.
Ministry of Supply (Raw Material Controllers)
asked the Minister of Supply which of the 21 Controllers of raw materials in his Department are paid by the State, and which are still in receipt of payment from their own trades or industries?
I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list showing which Controllers are paid a salary by the Ministry of Supply.
Will this list reveal a continuation of the practice of allowing people to work in the Ministry of Supply while being paid by firms outside, and being in contractual relationship with their own firms; or will it show a change in policy?
Will the list show the number in each category at the present moment?
No, Sir, there is no change in policy.
Will it show which of these Controllers are in receipt of payment from companies which they formerly controlled?
No, Sir; no inquiry was made into the means of livelihood of these Controllers. But they are required to release themselves, for the time being, from active participation in any private business connected with their own industry.
Following is the list :
Controls .
* Abrasives.
Chrome Ore, Magnesite, Wolfram and Foundry Bonding Materials.
* Cork.
* Cotton.
Diamond.
* Diamond Die and Tool.
* Fertilisers.
Flax and Ramie.
Hemp and Kapok.
Industrial Ammonia.
Iron and Steel.
Jute.
* Leather.
Miscellaneous Chemicals.
Molasses and Industrial Alcohol.
Non-Ferrous Metals.
Non-Ferrous Mineral Development.
Paper.
Plastics.
Rubber.
* Silk and Rayon.
* Sulphuric Acid.
Timber.
Wool.
In the cases marked by an asterisk the Controllers are paid a salary as such by the Ministry of Supply.
MINISTRY OF FOOD (Trade Directors)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food which of the 32 Controllers in his Department are paid by the State; and which of them are still in receipt of payment from their trades or trade connections?
Of the 38 trade directors of the Ministry of Food, 12 receive salaries from the Ministry. Of the remainder, 19 receive an allowance for expenses and the rest are unpaid. I have no information as to the number who continue to receive payment from their trade or trade connections.
Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman give some indication by a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT showing which is which, as mere numbers are not very important?
I have given the particulars for which the hon. Gentleman asked.
Is it not very unsatisfactory that the Minister in charge of this Department should not know of the business connections of those who are interested in and are in authority within his Department?
That is not the Question. I have answered the Question on the Paper, which asked which of the controllers are paid by the State and which of them are still in receipt of pay ment from their trades or trade connections.
Is it fair to small traders that all these large concerns should pack Government Departments with their representatives, obtain subsidies and use their whole power during war-time to drive the poor men out of business?
Questions
Jamaica (Local Government Reform)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether an adviser has been appointed by his Department in connection with the reform of local government in Jamaica; whether the scheme of reform has now been elaborated; and Whether a copy of the scheme will be placed in the Library of the House of Commons as early as possible?
This suggestion, which was welcomed by the Governor of Jamaica, has been taken up, but I regret that it has not proved possible to find a suitable expert in this country whose services are available. So far as my Noble Friend is aware, the local deliberations on this subject have not yet reached the stage at which proposals for the reform of local government can be submitted to the Legislative Council. When those proposals are received, the question of placing a copy in the Library of the House will be considered.
Does not my right hon. Friend consider it advisable that an expert adviser should be appointed by the Government in connection with the scheme for the reform of local government?
Yes, Sir, and that was why we welcomed the suggestion, but we found it impossible to get the man we' wanted.
Sierra Leone (Essential Work Order)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that in Sierra Leone, whilst workers contravening the Defence (Essential Work) General Provisions Order, 1941, are being prosecuted and convicted, no action is being taken against employers flagrantly disregarding the provisions of this Order although reported to the War Services Officer; and whether he will invite the Governor to end this discrimination?
My Noble Friend has recently received the following information from the Governor. Proceedings have been taken in seven cases against men who left essential works without the permission of the War Services Officer, and all have been convicted. All cases which have been reported of complaints by employees against dismissal without notice and without permission of the War Services Officer have been investigated by the Labour Department of the Sierra Leone Government, and, where necessary, appropriate action has been taken to redress legitimate grievances. In no case has a criminal action against an employer been necessary.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that undertakings in Sierra Leone, scheduled as essential works, are not being visited or required by the labour department to conform to the prescribed conditions of the employment and welfare of the workers under the Essential Work (General Provisions) Order, 1941; and whether he will call the attention of the Governor to this situation?
No, Sir. In fact, between 1st March and 25th April this year 34 inspections of essential works have been made by the Labour Department, covering practically all the major scheduled works in the Colony area and including two inspections of undertakings in the Protectorate.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the local Press have made bitter complaints about neglect in the matter of the conditions of labour, and also in connection with the welfare schemes which it was expected would be introduced?
That is another question. I was asked whether inspections had been made and I pointed out that in the course of two months practically all these inspections had been carried out.
African Supply Boards (Native Appointments)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any native Africans have been appointed to the Nigerian Supply Board; whether Supply Boards have been established in other African Colonies and whether any native Africans have been appointed thereon: and whether he will ensure that some native Africans are invariably included when nominating such organisations?
There are several Supply Boards or similar organisations in various parts of Africa. I am, not aware whether they include African members or not. But my hon. Friend's suggestion will be brought to the notice of the Colonial Governments concerned.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it would be highly desirable to have educated Africans appointed on at least one of these Boards?
I am grateful for my hon. Friend's suggestion, and that is why I am bringing it to the notice of the Governments concerned.
West Africa (Constitution)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has considered the resolution, submitted by the West African Students Union, respecting constitutional development in West Africa; and whether His Majesty s Government are considering, or will consider, proposals for early West African constitutional reform and accelerated progress towards self-government?
Yes, Sir. My Noble Friend has seen the resolution, but I am not in a position to make any statement upon it. With regard to the second part of the Question, I have nothing to add to the reply to my hon. Friend on 11th March.
Do I take it from that answer that in fact no statement is likely to be made during the war as to the future constitutional development of West African Colonies?
I am afraid I cannot answer that. I do not know the length of the war or the intentions of my Noble Friend.
Transport Facilities, Wolverhampton
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he has any statement to make with reference to transport facilities in Wolverhampton, with particular reference to Messrs. Guy Motors, Limited?
According to the information which I have now received, there are no substantial transport difficulties at Wolverhampton, either generally or for the workers of Messrs. Guy Motors, Limited. Messrs. Guy have in fact made a substantial contribution to the relief of the pressure on local transport services by staggering their hours of work, and they are now awaiting permission to extend their canteen facilities. I am glad to have this opportunity of correcting any misconception to which my reply to a Supplementary Question on 15th April may have given rise.
Is it not the case that the attitude of the firm and of their works committee has been thoroughly helpful throughout?
Yes, Sir. I wish that everywhere the same attitude towards staggering had been adopted.
Train Lighting, Rickmansworth
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is aware that, when trains are transferred to the electric system at Rickmansworth, all the lights are turned on, and kept on, in broad day light; and whether steps will be taken to bring to the notice of the railway companies the necessity for preventing such waste of lighting?
I am informed by the London Passenger Transport Board that the lighting of these trains is done by batteries which are charged by dynamos driven from the axles. The lighting of this rolling stock can only be controlled by the guard who must pass to each coach to switch the lights on or off. In order to avoid the delay to trains which would be thus involved, it is necessary to keep the lights on from Rickmansworth inwards. I am glad to assure my hon. Friend, however, that the loss of electric current which results is negligible.
Is it not a fact that in view of the fuel rationing scheme about to be discussed by this House it is very bad for the morale of people who are to be asked to accept rationing in their own homes to see this waste; and, with regard to the guard who would have to go from coach to coach, could he not do so from Rickmansworth all the way to Finchley Road?
I am informed that there are tunnels.
Only from Finchley Road.
Can the hon. Gentleman tell me where they buy the lamps, because I should like to get some lamps which use only a negligible amount of electricity?
Ministry of Information
Outgoing Press Messages (Censorship)
asked the Minister of Information the name of the correspondent or newsagency responsible for each of the examples of the kind of Press cables; which made it necessary to amend the regulations governing the censorship of outgoing messages?
Since the amendment of the regulations governing the censorship of outgoing messages few cables likely to cause difficulties of this kind have been submitted and correspondents have been most willing to accept the amendments considered necessary. And so in the circumstances I feel that my hon. Friend will agree that it is better to let bygones be bygones.
Is my right hon. Friend not aware that Mr. Gordon L. Gilmour, of Australian News Services, and Mr. Eric Cook, of General News Services, have admitted in "The Times" the authorship of the messages quoted, and does not my right hon. Friend think it would have been fairer to reputable correspondents and news agencies to have given the names of the offenders in the original answer?
I had the feeling that these amendments were accepted without any real protest and that it was better really to let the whole matter drop. I think that is wise on the whole; we have to work with the Press during the war, and it is no use at this stage adding to the punishment of these gentlemen.
Does that very generous statement mean that my right hon. Friend withdraws his regulations or prescriptions?
On the contrary, what has happened has proved to me how wise the Government were to introduce these regulations.
Does that mean that preference has been given to the Press as against other workers?
I cannot understand the hon. Gentleman.
By not publishing their names.
Communist Speakers
asked the Minister of Information why officials of his Ministry at St. Andrew's House, Edinburgh, refused the offer by the Communist Party to provide speakers on subjects dealing with production and the Soviet Union, particularly since the speakers concerned were shop stewards competent to deal with production and persons who had visited the Soviet Union; and what steps he is prepared to take to prevent such actions in the future by local or regional committees of his Ministry?
Ministry of Information speakers must be definitely non-political. I do not know how this position can be maintained if I agree that speakers on the Ministry's panel can be nominated directly by the. Communist Party or any other political organisation.
Is it not the case that even the Lord Provost of Edinburgh recommended that several of these speakers should be accepted, because of their knowledge of conditions in the factories and of conditions in Russia, but the political bias of the Minister's Department was responsible for their not being used?
I should regard it as very wrong for me to advise the Lord Provost of Edinburgh about the affairs of his city, but I also think that I am rather more competent than the Lord Provost to decide on matters connected with speakers.
Was there not a prominent Communist broadcasting last night, after the 9 o'clock news?
He was broadcasting in his capacity as President of the Miners' Federation.
"Sacrifice Australia" (Press Message)
asked the Minister of Information whether he is aware that the message about the Sacrifice of Australia, to which he recently took objection, was not sent in its original form but in a form agreed by Mr. Gordon N. Gilmour with the Chief Press Censor; and whether he has expressed regrets to this correspondent for a slur on his professional honour?
No, Sir. Mr. Gordon N. Gilmour did not consult the Chief Press Censor. He submitted a message which was referred to an Assistant Director, and which began with the words:
"Sacrifice Australia. This startling suggestion is being made in serious discussions war situation. Men who regard themselves sound students strategy put forward this drastic recommendation not callously but as sheer military necessity."
After some argument with the Assistant Director, Mr. Gilmour agreed to modify his message, which was sent with the word "necessary" added before "sacrifice," and "temporarily" after "Australia." These amendments removed a small part of the sting of this message, which cannot be looked upon as other than injurious to relations between Great Britain and Australia. I may remind the hon. Gentleman that when this message was sent the Press Censorship had no power, save by the arts of persuasion, to modify it in any respect. The Chief Press Censor now possesses the power to deal with such a message. No one save the hon. Gentleman has suggested that any slur was made on the professional honour of Mr. Gilmour.
Does not my right hon. Friend agree with the facts as set out by Mr. Gilmour in "The Times" newspaper?
I have already pointed out to my hon. Friend that Mr. Gilmour said that he saw the Chief Censor and discussed this matter with him, but he was mistaken. He discussed it with one of his assistants. I have given the amendments made in the telegram, and I think if my hon. Friend will read my answer to-morrow, he will agree with them.
British War Effort (Information to Russia)
asked the Minister of Information whether he is aware that a distinguished Russian writer, now in this country, states that he is constantly asked in Russia what Britain is doing, and why the sons of Russians are giving their lives at the front while the sons of their Allies remain at home; and what steps are being taken to explain to the Russian people the size of the war effort of the British Empire during the last two-and-a-half years and the assistance we have already given and are continuing to give to Russia in their fight against Germany?
As my hon. Friend knows, distinguished writers are not always good judges of public opinion; and some of the effusions of a few of our own distinguished writers in foreign countries have not been of much constructive value to our war effort. I may remind my hon. Friend that on 15th April I stated in this House that British news is transmitted daily to the U.S.S.R. through Reuters and British Official Wireless and that ample facilities are given to Soviet correspondents in London to acquaint themselves with the British war effort. The Ministry of Information also sends daily, by wireless telegraph, news items, photographs, background information and articles. Newsreels and short films are sent and radio programmes are being produced on records for despatch to Moscow. We are, of course, working in full co operation with the Soviet authorities in this matter, and I must acknowledge with gratitude the praise given to the British war effort by many Russian broadcasters and writers.
Is the right hon. Gentleman certain that all this information to which he refers is reaching the Russian people? Has he noticed articles in our evening Press with paragraphs, in large print, embodying the statements I have made in my Question, from a gentleman who gets the front page in the "Soviet War News" and therefore must be a person of some consequence in Russia?
I have not read the articles to which my hon. Friend refers, but I would say to him that the news must be getting to Russia, because one can hear references to the British war effort constantly on the Moscow radio.
Has my right hon. Friend had time to give consideration to the reply he gave to me on this subject on 15th April, namely, that he would re- peruse my speeches, copies of which I sent to him, in which I suggested the re-broadcasting on medium wave in Russia of our transmissions from this country?
I have re-read parts of my hon. and gallant Friend's speech, and I have asked the authorities at the B.B.C. to give it the care it deserves.
"Picture Post" (Overseas Despatch)
asked the Minister of Information whether he is now prepared to grant to the journal, "Picture Post," the same facilities and assistance for despatch overseas as are afforded to other illustrated journals?
For approved destinations overseas "Picture Post" receives the same facilities and assistance as are afforded to other illustrated journals. I am informed that the number of copies sent to two important countries overseas has been doubled in recent weeks. My hon. Friend will, I hope, understand that arrangements for despatching British papers and periodicals overseas at the expense of the Ministry of Information are continually under review, and that we must be guided by the advice given by our representatives abroad upon the value to British publicity of papers so transmitted.
Do I take it, therefore, that in fact this journal has now the same advantages granted to it as are being granted to other journals of a similar nature? If not, can the right hon. Gentleman explain why that difference exists?
I have pointed out that this journal is sent to quite a number of places overseas where it is deemed to be useful. There are a number of journals so sent. There is no bias against "Picture Post" or any other paper.
Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman has lifted the ban on "Picture Post" going to the Middle East?
There never was a ban upon it. I withdrew the subsidy. As I have pointed out, it might be useful in some countries and not useful in certain types of countries in the Middle East.
Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman has granted financial assistance to send "Picture Post" to the Middle East or not?
All the time that this controversy was in progress about "Picture Post" we were continually sending it to other parts of the world than the Middle East.
What about the Middle East?
The position is the same.
Sudeten Germans (British Broadcasts)
asked the Minister of Information whether, in view of the different position of the Sudeten Germans from Germans within the Reich or in Austria, he will arrange a separate broadcast for them in their own language?
My hon. Friend will understand that our broadcasting resources are under great strain and unable to meet every demand made upon them. Since the Sudeten Germans are German-speaking they are able to listen to the many broadcasts in the B.B.C.'s German service.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that hundreds of thousands of these Sudeten Germans were forcibly incorporated in the Reich under the Munich Agreement without their opinions being consulted, and that their sentiments are entirely different from those of the Germans?
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, but I would point out that our broadcasts to Germany are not exactly complimentary to the present régime, and I should think are greeted with much enthusiasm by those Sudeten Germans.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are several silent periods on the Continental wavelengths of 373 metres and other frequencies? Could not those silent periods be usefully filled?
I believe myself that the silent periods might be more useful.
Questions
German Warships' Escape
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty who, under Command Paper No. 6351, was responsible for the disposition of the naval and air forces at the time the German warships "Scharn-horst," "Gneisenau" and "Prince Eugen" passed up the English Channel?
The passage of the German heavy units up Channel was an operational matter, and therefore was not the concern of the joint planning organisation. Accordingly, the disposition of the Naval and Air Forces was made by the Naval and Air Staffs in co-operation.
Mauritius (Constitution)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any further consideration has been given to the Constitution of Mauritius, with a view to making it more democratic?
I am afraid that I am not in a position to add anything to the reply returned to a similar Question by the hon. Member on nth November, 1941. It is still not considered practicable to carry this matter further under present conditions.
Airgraph Service, India
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is now in a position to say when the airgraph service for communication with the serving Forces now in India will come into operation?
An airgraph service from India to this country is already in operation both for troops and civilians, but I regret that I am not yet in a position to say when the outward service can be made available. I hope, however, to be in a position to make an announcement on the subject at an early date.
If I put down a Question during the next series of Sittings of the House, will that be in time?
Perhaps the hon. Member would allow me to advise him when I think we shall be able to give an answer.
Armed Forces (Free Legal Aid)
asked the Attorney-General whether he will establish machinery to enable members of the Armed Forces to obtain free legal assistance in cases of need?
This question has been engaging the urgent attention of my Noble Friend the Lord Chancellor for some time past, and discussions have been proceeding on the subject. As a result a scheme for the provision of free legal aid for the lower ranks of the Army has been prepared and has received the approval of the Army Council. It will be put into operation as soon as the organisation has been perfected. When this has been done, an early opportunity will be taken of making a public statement on the subject. The question of the adaptation of the scheme to the needs of the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force is under discussion.
While thanking the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that assurance, which will be much appreciated by men in the Army, I would like to ask him, in the first place, whether he will do everything that lies in his power to expedite the bringing into operation of this scheme. In the second place, will he further do what he can to see that comparable schemes are brought into operation for the Navy and the Air Force?
Will my right hon. and learned Friend consider reviving the procedure of the last war, whereby in all cases in which the death penalty was involved the defence was invariably undertaken by officers who were members of the Bar or solicitors?
I can assure the hon. Member that this matter is being treated as one of importance and urgency. No time will be lost in bringing the scheme into operation. With regard to the Navy and the Air Force, there are at present certain facilities which exist in the Air Force. The question of organising on the lines of these, and also the adaptation of the scheme to the Navy, is under consideration at the present moment.
Does the scheme cover divorce proceedings?
There is a separate scheme already in existence with regard to divorce proceedings. They are a very important item in this matter.
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give a little more publicity to the machinery of that part of legal advice, because it is not widely known in the Army to-day, and it is a very serious matter in many cases?
I quite agree. That is why I said that when we get the scheme perfected it is proposed to take an early opportunity of making a public statement on the subject.
Workers' Dwellings, Lancashire
asked the Minister of Health whether he has considered the complaint of the Liverpool Trades Council and Labour Party as to the faulty construction of workers' dwellings being erected in Lancashire for occupation by persons engaged in war work in that district; and whether he will call for a report upon these dwellings from the local medical officer of health in order to satisfy himself that these dwellings are really fit for "human" habitation?
My right hon. Friend is making inquiries and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as possible.
Birth Rate
asked the Minister of Health what steps are being taken to maintain our future population, in view of the particular war-time difficulties of bringing up children?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Ivor Thomas) on 23rd April, of which I am sending him a copy.
Is the hon. Lady aware that the Minister, in reply to that Question, said that as it was an important national issue the question should be raised with those responsible for the Government as a whole, so I put down a Question to the Prime Minister? It has been transferred to the Minister of Health. Can I have an answer to my Question?
My right hon. Friend answered as fully as possible on 23rd April. Perhaps if there is any point in that answer which my hon. Friend wishes to raise, he will put down a further Question about it.
Is the hon. Lady's Department taking into consideration the wants and requirements of orphan children to see that those already in the world are being properly provided for?
Would not the best way of dealing with this matter be by a national State scheme for family allowances?
British Army (Billeting Allowances)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will review the present rates for billeting soldiers, in view of the increased cost of living and the impossibility of supplying meals at the low rates of payments allowed?
The rates are based on current retail prices, and are calculated to cover the cost of providing the meals required. They are kept constantly under review.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many months ago the Minister stated, in reply to a Question I put down, that the case would be reviewed, and that since then there has been no change? The result is that they are still paying only 9d. for breakfast, 3d. for tea, and 5d. for supper, and it is impossible to provide these meals at such prices.
As I explained, these rates are kept under constant review. If the hon. Member has particular hardships in mind, perhaps he will give me particulars.
Are not these billeting allowances precisely the same as before the last war? Should not some consideration be given to them from that aspect?
I have told the hon. Member that these rates are being reviewed constantly. This is no formality. I realise that there may be difficulties in certain cases, where the specified foods are not available, but these rates are calculated to cover the meals prescribed.
Even though the rates are constantly under review, nothing has been done for the last 12 months, except in the case of the dinner. That is the only alteration that has been made.
Constant review does not necessarily imply constant alteration.
Can the hon. Member give the date on which the last review was made?
This week.
That makes it worse.
Post-War Problems (Ministerial Responsibility)
asked the Prime Minister what Minister is responsible for investigating the problems that will arise at the Peace Conference of an economic, political and territorial nature?
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is responsible for seeing that studies are made of the particular problems (political, territorial and economic) likely to arise at the Peace Conference.
Is it the case that the Paymaster-General has no responsibility for problems of this kind?
No, Sir. If in their wider aspects those problems are brought under general reconsideration, they come under the purview of the Paymaster-General. It is his responsibility to study, and if necessary to cordinate, them.
Commandos (Leave and Conditions)
asked the Prime Minister whether Combined Operations receive any special advancement in rank compared with other units; and whether any extra leave is granted after an operation?
Except that leave is sometimes granted after a raid to Commando troops according to circumstances obtaining at the time, no differentiation is made as regards advancement or leave between Combined Operations personnel and the remaining personnel of the three Fighting Services.
If men are called upon to undertake Combined Operations, facing the same risks and bearing the same burdens, ought there to be any differentiation in the rates of pay? Why should not the men in the Army, when on Combined Operations, have the same' rates of pay as those in the Air Force, and so on?
I do not think my hon. Friend has followed the Question, which related to leave, not to pay.
Does not the Question relate to any special advancement in rank, and so on, and general conditions? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Would my right hon. Friend consider this question of differential rates of pay when men are called upon to undertake Combined Operations?
When decorations or awards are conferred after such operations, can they be awarded immediately after the operation, and not six or nine months later?
Production (Managerial Changes)
asked the Minister of Production the number of cases in which the Government have exercised their powers to enforce managerial changes in industry?
There have been six such cases. Many more changes of management have been made as the result of departmental representation, but in those cases there has been no exercise of compulsory powers.
Has the number of cases in which such changes have been made as a result of persuasion been considerable?
There is some difficulty in answering that question. It is like asking me how many murders have not been committed because of the existence of capital punishment.
Does my right hon. Friend propose to take any steps in respect of a certain gun factory, under the control of an hon. Member of this House, which was the subject of most scathing remarks in the Auditor-General's Report?
Ministry of Supply
Salvage Collection
asked the Minister of Supply what steps are being taken to collect the empty cigarette and tobacco cartons, advertising various brands, in tobacconists' shop windows, also the old metal lamp-posts still lying on certain surburban electric railway platforms, which have been replaced by concrete standards?
On 27th March last directions were issued to local authorities to collect waste paper (which includes empty cartons) from unoccupied premises. I am consulting representatives of the tobacco industry in regard to the disposal of empty cartons in the windows of occupied shops. I am informed by my Noble Friend the Minister of Works and Buildings that the old metal lamp-posts will be collected and disposed of by the railway companies themselves.
Salvage Dump (Railway Siding, Swindon)
asked the Minister of Supply what disciplinary action has been taken against those responsible for dumping valuable cardboard, paper, metal and straw in large quantities at a railway siding near Swindon, particulars of which have been given him?
This matter has been investigated by the Ministry of Aircraft Production, the material in question having been despatched from an aircraft factory. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Aircraft Production is satisfied that the firm concerned have taken adequate steps to prevent a. recurrence of the incident.
Does my right hon. Friend really mean that no disciplinary action, or punishment, is being inflicted upon those responsible for this gross waste of very important material?
I have not said so at all. I have left the matter to the Minister of Aircraft Production.
Ex-Army Motor Vehicles
asked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that dealers are buying up second-hand motor vehicles from Army disposal dumps and other sources, for the purpose of holding them for a rise in prices after the war; and whether he will consider the possibility of requisitioning all such vehicles, in order that their spare parts, tyres, metal and other materials can be sorted and organised for use by the Forces and by industry?
Arrangements were made last year whereby all ex-Army load-carrying vehicles, surplus to Government requirements, are sold to the original manufacturers for repair by their dealers and resold at controlled prices to licensed purchasers. Similar arrangements have now been applied to all other ex-Army motor vehicles. They ensure that spare parts, tyres, etc., are used to the best advantage for essential transport.
Does not this matter go further? Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the Government should consider extending this system much further, in order to prevent second-hand cars being held up in this way, and to enable parts that are usable to be used for the war effort?
Yes, Sir. The extension of this system is being considered.
Bomb Unit (Suspension)
asked the Minister of Supply why a bomb unit, of which the hon. Member for Gravesend has given him the name, has been closed down; and the total amount of money which has been spent to date in acquiring and developing this unit?
The requirements which the unit was intended to meet were reduced, and its construction has been meantime suspended. The expenditure involved has been about £60,000.
Cheque Books
asked the Minister of Supply whether he will take steps to check the waste of paper involved in the practice of the Westminster Bank in making up cheques in books of 12 where previously they were made up in books of 25, with the result that twice as many covers are used for these books as was previously the case?
I understand that no books with less than 24 cheques are being made up, and that any books of 12 cheques issued by the Westminster Bank are old stock which is being used up.
Food Supplies
Edible Seaweed
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether full use is being made of the large supplies of dulse, carrageen, sugar-wrack and other forms of edible seaweed, in order to supplement the homegrown food supply?
I am informed that the products to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers are eaten by persons resident in the areas where they are to be found. Inquiries have been made into the practicability of the wider use of edible seaweeds for human consumption, and I am advised that their nutritive value is not sufficient to justify the expense of collection and distribution.
Is not the consumption of edible seaweed an old Welsh custom?
It is certainly eaten in Wales, and also in parts of Scotland.
Rolls, Public Restaurants
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has considered the desirability of prohibiting the baking of rolls, and their use in public restaurants, in order to prevent waste of bread?
The allegation that the baking of rolls and their use in public restaurants leads to waste is being investigated by my Department.
Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the experience during the last war showed that the baking of rolls is not wasteful at all?
We have no information now, and all that I can say is that we are making an investigation. We know that in certain parts of the country the baking of rolls is an extremely important part of the baking trade.
Do not bakers generally regard the baking of rolls as the most profitable part of their production, and probably that accounts for their production?
Is it not also good for the people to eat them?
Hotels and Restaurants
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he can give an estimate of the percentage of the total average weekly consumption of food represented by the allotment to hotels and restaurants and to British Restaurants and canteens, respectively?
The consumption of food in catering establishments represents approximately 8 per cent. of the total consumption, British Restaurants and canteens being responsible for approximately 3 per cent. and other catering establishments, including hotels and restaurants, for approximately 5 per cent.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the new Order has yet been completed limiting supply and price of meals at hotels and restaurants; what are its terms; and from when is it effective?
I hope that the Order will be made very shortly.
As this matter has really been under consideration for something like two years, when the matter was first brought before Parliament, can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say what "very shortly" means?
I do not accept that this has been under consideration for two years. It has not. The announcement was made a fortnight ago, and my hon. and gallant Friend ought to know that the Order is not an easy one to prepare.
May I remind the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that two years ago it was said on behalf of the Ministry in this House that the limitation of food was under consideration from every angle, and if the need is present to-day, then it has been present for a long time, and cannot something be done to bring it to a head one way or another?
Yorkshire Egg Packers, Limited
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the names and qualifications of those who promoted the company known as Yorkshire Egg Packers, Limited; whether this company is under any obligation to publish periodic accounts, duly audited by public auditors; and whether it is expected to report on its activities from time to time to his Ministry?
Yorkshire Egg Packers, Limited, is a society registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies' Act, 1893. The accounts of the company are audited by one or more of the public auditors appointed under the Act, and are, together with any report of the auditors, laid before the annual meeting of the company. The company is also required to send to the Registrar, in the form prescribed, an annual return of the receipts and expenditure, funds and effects of the society. In common with all licensed packers, it has to keep accurate records of its dealings in eggs, which are open to inspection by the Ministry, and to furnish to the Ministry such particulars of these dealings as may be required. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement giving the name and qualifications of the promoters.
Following is the statement :
Name and Qualifications.
Mr. George Bamforth—Egg Packer, of Holm-firth.
Mr. A. E. Cleasby—Egg Packer, of Harrogate.
Mr. D. A. Evans—Representing Maypole Dairy Company, Limited, Egg Packers.
Mr. S. W. Green—Director of Bradford Central Egg Packing Station, Limited, Egg Packers.
Mr. A. A. Plimpton—Managing Director and Secretary, East Yorkshire, Farmers, Limited, of Beverley, Egg Packers.
Mr. G. W. Truswell—Director of John Truswell, Limited, of Sheffield, Egg Packers.
Mr. R. Wilkinson—Chairman of Poultry Producers (W. R., Limited), of Drighlington, Egg Packers.
Orders of the Day
Minister of Works and Planning Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
The Bill deals with the setting-up of a Ministry of Works and Planning. It is a first step, and a first step only, in carrying out the policy of the Government which was announced in this House and in another place on nth February, 1942. As the House is aware. His Majesty does not require statutory authority to appoint a new Minister, but when a new Minister is appointed some legislation is almost invariably necessary. It is required, for example, for the transfer to the new Minister of any statutory functions previously exercised by some other Minister or Department and for enabling the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretaries to sit in the House of Commons without incurring disqualification as holders of offices of profit under the Crown, and for other purposes. It is also customary in such a Bill to insert a provision providing for the payment of the Minister and his staff out of moneys provided by Parliament. That provision is, not strictly necessary, since the sanction for the payment is in fact contained in the annual Appropriation Act. Nevertheless, it is customary, because it brings to the attention of the House the fact that the moneys are provided by Parliament. The intention is that the Minister of Works and Planning, when he is appointed, shall exercise the functions hitherto exercised by the Commissioners of Works, the Minister of Works and Buildings, and the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, together with the town and country planning functions hitherto exercised by the Minister of Health.
It will be convenient if I deal separately with each of these four sources of the functions of the new Minister. The Commissioners of Works, or, to give them their full title, the Commissioners of His Majesty's Works and Public Buildings, are a body corporate appointed under the Crown Lands Act, 1851. The First Com missioner of Works, who is appointed from time to time under the Royal Sign Manual,-is a Minister of the Crown and in practice performs on his own responsibility all the functions of the Commissioners. The other Commissioners are the principal Secretaries of State and the President and Vice-President of the Board of Trade, who hold their offices ex officio . When these Commissioners were first created in 1851, they inherited the duties of an already ancient office which had existed in various forms and under various titles, the original function of which was to look after certain castles, palaces and other buildings belonging to the King. In the course of time the functions of the Commissioners have, of course, been greatly expanded. They were authorised by a Statute of 1852 to purchase, take or accept any hereditaments necessary for the public service. At the present time the Commissioners hold, construct, acquire and manage all properties in the United Kingdom required for the civil purposes of the central Government. There is one exception to what I have just stated namely Post Offices and telephone exchanges, which are vested in the Postmaster-General. These buildings are, however, built and equipped by the Commissioners of Works. The Commissioners also hold all properties outside the United Kingdom which are used by the United Kingdom Government for civil purposes. They also supply furniture and equipment for all these properties and perform such functions on an agency basis for the Service Depts.
These are their general statutory duties. They have other functions under a number of other Acts with which I need not trouble the House to-day. Among them are the Ancient Monuments Acts, 1913 and 1931, and the Parks Regulation Acts, 1872 and 1926. The Commissioners maintain all British Embassies and Legations in foreign countries, many British Consulates and the offices and residences of the United Kingdom High Commissioners in the Dominions. They also exercise certain powers under the Defence Regulations, for example, power to requisition property and chattels or to do work on land. It will be possible to transfer to the Minister at an early date all the properties of the Commissioners in the United Kingdom, together with their more important functions. The transfer of functions under the Defence Regulations will be carried out by amendment of those Regulations themselves. But the transfer of the other functions derived from the various Statutes will involve a very considerable measure of Statute law revision, as many of the statutory provisions relating to the constitution of the Commissioners will necessarily become obsolete when their functions are transferred to a single Minister. For that reason it is proposed that the transfer to the new Minister of the functions of the Commissioners should be effected by Orders in Council under the Bill, so that the necessary statutory modifications may be made at leisure, with full time to consider the special issues which are raised by each separate Act of Parliament. The property of the Commissioners in the United Kingdom will likewise be transferred by Order in Council under the Bill.
So much for the property and functions in the United Kingdom. The transfer to the new Minister of property in the Dominions and foreign countries presents some difficulties. Since the Statute of Westminster, 1931, it has not been possible for an Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom to affect the law of certain Dominions unless the Act expressly declares that the Dominion in question has requested and consented to the passing of the Act. Any such requests and consents are for practical purposes out of the question in war-time, and it is, therefore, intended that the property of the Commissioners of Works in the Dominions should be transferred to the new Minister by conveyances executed in the proper form. Naturally, the transfer of the property of the Commissioners in foreign countries presents greater difficulties. An Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom cannot in any circumstances affect the law of foreign countries, and it follows that the proper way to transfer to the new Minister the property of the Commissioners in foreign countries is to execute a conveyance of the property in accordance with the law of the country concerned. The execution of these conveyances will probably continue over a considerable period, since where the country concerned is an enemy country or in enemy occupation, no conveyance will be practicable until the war is over. It follows that the Commissioners of Works must remain in being for a considerable time after the new Minister has been appointed. In order to prevent any possible inconvenience arising from this fact, it is provided in the Bill that the new Minister shall ex officio be First Commissioner of Works. I may add that my Noble Friend the present Minister of Works and Buildings was also appointed First Commissioner of Works.
I turn now to the functions of the Minister of Works and Buildings. The Ministers of the Crown (Emergency Appointments) Act, 1939, which we passed immediately before the outbreak of the present war, enables His Majesty by Order in Council to direct that the Act shall apply to any Minister of the Crown appointed for the purpose of exercising functions in connection with the prosecution of any war in which His Majesty may be engaged, and it makes consequential provisions. By an Order made on nth October, 1940, the Ministers of the Crown (Emergency Appointments) Act, 1939, was applied to any Minister of the Crown appointed to hold the office of Minister of Works and Buildings. It is by virtue of this Order that the Minister was enabled to sit in the House of Commons, although, in fact, the Minister has throughout been a Member of another place. That Act also enabled one Parliamentary Secretary to sit in the House of Commons. Accordingly, by an Order in Council made under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts on 5th March of the present year, the Ministers of the Crown (Emergency Appointments) Act, 1939, was amended so as to enable two Parliamentary Secretaries to the Ministry of Works and Buildings to sit at the same time in the House of Commons. I may add that it is that Order in Council which makes my subsequent actions lawful.
As I have said, the person holding the office of Minister of Works and Buildings has since the office was first created also held the office of First Commissioner of Works. The Commissioners of Works have remained in being and have continued to perform all their normal functions in addition to the functions conferred on them by the Defence Regulations. All conveyances are still executed in the name and under the seal of the Commissioners. The Minister of Works and Buildings has no statutory functions other than those which are conferred on him by Defence Regulations. Since the transfer of those functions can be effected by amendment of the Defence Regulations themselves, it has not been found necessary to mention the Minister of Works and Buildings in the present Bill at all. Some Members may wonder why, if the Minister and Parliamentary Secretaries can lawfully hold office under the provisions to which I have referred, we require this Bill to regularise the position. The answer is that both the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts, 1939 and 1940, an Order under which legalised the position of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, and the Ministers of the Crown (Emergency Appointments) Act, 1939. under which the present Minister holds office are temporary Acts. The latter Act has, in fact, been repealed as from the end of the present emergency, by the Ministers of the Crown and House of Commons Disqualification Act, 1942. As it is intended that the Minister of Planning shall be a permanent institution in this country it is necessary to make provision by a permanent Act and not to rely upon merely temporary Measures.
I now come to the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland. [HON. MEMBERS: "Northern Ireland."] The title is "Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland."
My hon. Friend has just said that the appointment of Minister of Planning will be a permanent one. Does that refer to the Minister of Works and Planning?
This Bill creates a Minister of Works and Planning and that is the appointment to which I refer. I am indebted to my hon. and gallant Friend for the correction. As I was about to say, the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland were established by the Public Works (Ireland) Act, 1831, and their functions were to advance money for the execution of public works in Ireland and to hold lands and buildings in Ireland required for the public service. By a series of Statutes and Orders made in 1920, 1921 and 1922—unless the House desires it, I do not propose to give them in detail but merely to state their effect—the bulk of the property held by the Commissioners was passed either to the Government of Northern Ireland or to the Government of Southern Ireland. The only property now vested in the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland is certain property which is used for imperial services. The most important example of such property is the Customs House at Belfast, and there are also Custom House properties at Londonderry, Newry, and Armagh and various other small properties in Northern Ireland. There is nothing in Southern Ireland. The appointment of Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland has to be made under the Royal Sign Manual. They are, at present, officials or former officials of the Department of the Office of Works. This arrangement is a clumsy one. The most convenient arrangement is, clearly, that this property in Northern Ireland should be held by the same person as similar property in this country and it has long been the intention to effect this reform by Statute at the first convenient opportunity Accordingly, this opportunity is being taken to transfer this property to the new Minister, and it will be possible in due course for the office of Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland to be abolished.
Other powers to be transferred are the town and country planning functions of the Minister of Health. Those functions are mainly contained, as the House is aware, in the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, and those powers, as I say, are to be transferred to the new Minister. The only exception is that of the functions exercisable under Section 32 of that Act, since these involve the responsibility of the Minister of Health for the supervision of local government finance and have nothing to do with planning powers. Accordingly the functions under that Section are not being transferred.
Does this include responsibility for housing?
Housing is covered by the Housing Acts, and there is no transfer of the powers under the Housing Acts in the present Bill. I have said that the planning functions which it is intended to transfer to the new Minister are mainly contained in the Statute of 1932. All the powers under this Act with the exception of the one Section to which I have referred are to be transferred to the new Minister. There are, however, a number of planning powers contained in various minor Acts and local Acts. I will not trouble the House with all of them, but they include such Acts as the London Squares Preservation Act, 1931; the Green Belt (London and Home Counties) Act 1938; the Allotments Act, 1925; the Middlesex County Council Act, 1934, and various other local Acts.
I take it that these Acts will not be repealed but that the functions under them will now be the responsibility of the Minister of Works and Planning?
There is no repeal of any Acts, but because of the multitudinous minor Acts and local Acts containing some planning powers of the Minister of Health which it is intended to transfer to the new Minister it is proposed to proceed by Order in Council, to effect the transfer. I am sorry that it has taken so long to give a general description of the powers of the Bill. If hon. Members will now turn to the Clauses of the Bill I shall endeavour to clarify a few points which arise on them. Clause 1 (1) recognises that it is in the power of the Crown to appoint a Minister of Works and Planning if he so desires, and defines, in general terms, the functions and properties to be transferred if His Majesty makes that appointment. Sub-section (2) is necessary for the reason that I have already given to the House, namely, that for some time to come the office of First Commissioner of Works must continue in existence. Clause 2, on the oath of allegiance and the official oath, is in the customary form and I need not trouble the House with any remarks upon it.
Clause 3, Sub-sections (1) and (3) are customary in an Act of this description, though, as I have said, the actual authority for the payment of public moneys is the annual Appropriation Act and therefore they are not strictly necessary. Subsection (2) about duplicate salaries is inserted because my Noble Friend the Minister of Works and Buildings at present holds two offices, namely, those of First Commissioner of Works and Minister of Works and Buildings. Clause 4 provides that neither the Minister nor any Parliamentary Secretary appointed by him shall be incapable of being elected as a Member of the House of Commons or of sitting or voting as such a Member. It is the Clause which prevents the Succession to the Crown Act, 1707, effecting disqualifications. Clause 5 (1) makes the Minister, for all purposes, a corporation sole, which is obviously convenient and proper if he has to hold various properties.
He never dies.
That means, as my hon. Friend says, that he never dies. A corporation sole never dies, and the property must always remain vested in the Minister, whoever the individual may be. The remaining sub-sections are in common form until Sub-section (5), on which I might perhaps say a word or two. It reads:
"No stamp duty shall be chargeable on any instrument made by, to, or with the Minister."
This merely repeats for the benefit of the Minister the exemption already enjoyed by the Commissioners of Works under the Sixth Schedule to the Stamp Act, 1891; it does not confer a new exemption, but continues one already in existence. Clause 6 contains the machinery for the transfer of property and powers under the Act. Sub-section (1) provides the statutory machinery necessary for vesting in the new Minister the functions and property which are to be transferred to him. The scheme is as follows. The statutory functions of the Commissioners of Works are exercised partly under the Defence Regulations and partly under a number of Acts. The Minister of Works and Buildings has no statutory functions except those which he exercises under the Defence Regulations. The functions under the Defence Regulations will be transferred, as I have explained, by amendment of those Regulations. This has the advantage that it still leaves it possible to amend those Defence Regulations further if it is so desired. The remaining transfers of functions will be effected by Orders in Council. As regards property, all property in the United Kingdom held by the Commissioners of Works and by the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland will be transferred by Orders in Council. Sub section (3) of the Clause provides that His Majesty may, by Order in Council, make a number of adjustments which will be necessary in consequence of the transfer of the functions and property effected under Sub-section (1). Perhaps I may give an example of the use that may have to be made of each of the paragraphs of the Sub-section. Paragraph ( a ) enables the various Acts of Parliament, deeds and instruments to be varied so that the Minister of Works and Planning is substituted for the Commissioners of Works. Paragraph ( b ) is required for the transfer of the planning functions of the Minister of Health under the various minor Acts to which I have already referred.
Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what control, if any, the new Minister of Works and Planning will have over housing, which will be an essential part of the development that will immediate follow the war?
As far as I can see, the only Clause that is anything but formal in this Bill is Clause 6, which deals largely with what is to be transferred to the Minister. Will the hon. Gentleman explain in rather more detail what exactly it is intended to take over as far as the functions of the Minister of Health are concerned?
I am in this dilemma, that, if I give too much detail, I am afraid I may weary the House; but let me answer the question simply in this way. Nothing is being taken over by this Bill from the Minister of Health except the planning functions contained in the general Statute, the Statute of 1932, and various planning functions contained in other Acts, which will be transferred by Orders in Council. The powers under the Housing Acts are not being transferred under this Bill at all. I think it will probably be more convenient to answer the point which the hon. Members have in mind in replying to the debate or in Committee on the Clause, but in general, I want to make it clear that it is planning powers, and planning powers only, that are being transferred by the Minister of Health under the Bill.
Are we to have uncontrolled housing after the war?
I cannot think why the hon. Member thinks housing will be uncontrolled. I do not know what view he takes of the present law, but such controls as are contained in the present law will remain.
They are inadequate.
If my hon. Friend, who has great interest in this subject, I know, will wait for a later passage in my speech, I intend to say something about amendment of the law, but it would be improper to do so until I have dealt with what is contained in the Bill, because the Bill does not amend the planning law, but merely transfers existing powers. I have probably as much sympathy with the point which my hon. Friend has in mind as he has, and perhaps he will wait until I say something about it at a later stage in my remarks.
Does planning refer to the sites only, or to the planning of the houses themselves?
It covers all the powers which the Minister of Health has under the Planning Act of 1932. I do not want on the spur of the moment to attempt a summary, which the hon. Member, with his expert knowledge, is in as good a position to make as I am. Before I was interrupted, I had reached Sub section (3), paragraph ( c ). This provides for the transfer to the Minister of any function exercisable by any of the Commissioners of Works. The reason for this is that certain functions are not exercised by all of them, but by the First Commissioner of Works. A good example of this, perhaps, is that the First Commissioner of Works is one of the administrative trustees of the Chequers Estate. The effect of paragraph ( d ), inter alia , is that any appeals now pending before the Minister of Health under the Town and Country Planning Act may be continued before the Minister of Works and Planning.
Will the hon. Gentleman read the beginning of this paragraph?
I think my hon. Friend is rather worried by the collection of prepositions. The point had not escaped my notice, but on some matters I have to accept, however reluctantly, the expert advice of Parliamentary draftsmen, who are generally infallible in these matters. On the Committee stage, I suppose, I may be driven to justify each of those prepositions. Paragraph ( e ) is necessary to ensure that the new Minister shall be responsible for any direction or order given by his predecessors in the exercise of the functions transferred to him, and that he shall be in a position to revoke any such direction or order if his predecessors could have done the same. Sub-sections (4) and (5) provide for the dissolution of the office of Commissioners of Works and Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland in due course, when everything has been transferred. Sub-sections (6) and (7) are in common form. As regards Clause 7, Sub-section (2), it is declared that the Act extends to Northern Ireland and to the Isle of Man. It extends to Northern Ireland because of the property in Northern Ireland which will be vested in the new Minister, and similarly there is Government property in the Isle of Man. The extension does not mean, of course, that any powers under the Town and Country Planning Act extend to those territories. The powers under that Act do not apply to either of those territories. Perhaps it would be convenient to repeat that, as far as Scotland is concerned, the Secretary of State for Scotland will be responsible, as heretofore, for the exercise in Scotland of the functions in regard to planning to be exercised in England and Wales by the Minister of Works and Planning.
I am sorry to have taken so long over the dry bones of the Measure, but the matter is not entirely simple. Perhaps I might, in passing, refer to one matter which may strike hon. Members as an omission. The powers of the Minister of Transport under the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act, 1935, are not being transferred. Needless to say, we have not overlooked the evil of ribbon development, and we are determined that our planning system as it is developed shall be capable of dealing with it. The simple transfer, however, of the existing powers of the Minister of Transport under that Act would not be a solution to the problem.
The Bill constitutes the first step only in carrying out the Government's policy. The objective of that policy is to secure the right use of the land of the country for all purposes. For this, existing planning powers are known to be inadequate, and it will be necessary to introduce legislation substantially amending, strengthening and extending the present law. Before such legislation is introduced, my Noble Friend wishes to see and study, as I know the House does, the Final Report of Mr. Justice Uthwatt's Committee and the Report of Lord Justice Scott's Committee, both of which deal with matters of fundamental importance to the subject we are considering. My Noble Friend expects to receive both these Reports in the not distant future. As the House is aware, the Government have already announced that they accept the principle of the Interim Report of Mr. Justice Uthwatt's Committee regarding war-time speculation in land, and that Report itself stated that legislative action was not at present required in this connection.
To secure the best use of the land for all purposes, an effective central planning authority is essential. It must give advice to local authorities on the use of the land within their areas, which takes into consideration all the requirements of national policy. If, for example, national policy requires that productive agricultural land shall not be needlessly used for other purposes, that requirement must be observed in local schemes. Whatever national policies are adopted for agriculture, for the grouping of the population and the location of the industries by which they live and for transport and communications, the central planning authority must bring the requirements of those policies to the notice of local authorities and thus help them to further national policy in the schemes which they prepare. The Minister will act in close association and co-operation with local authorities.
No national planning of the use of land will satisfy the country, if it does not provide for the preservation of extensive areas of great natural beauty and of the coast line. My Noble Friend will carefully consider the question of national parks and the protection of our coasts from ill-considered development. If in our plans we are concerned with the future, let no one suppose that we forget the urgent present. To the achievement of victory everything else must be subordinate. Every plan will be based on sand, if it is not founded on decisive victory. Without victory, no plan has any meaning.
But the victory must not find us unprepared. We are a large population, living in a small island of matchless but most vulnerable beauty. It is reckless folly to squander and destroy it. When the war is over, much building will take place in any event. What sort of building is it to be? Sporadic, ill-designed, vulgar and unworthy? Or well-grouped, of good design, genuine and worthy of our people? It is for us alone to decide. Good design need cost no more than bad. There is no merit whatever in planning, unless the plan produced is good. Town planning will not be good, as long as it is thought of merely in the form of maps showing zones and land uses. It is concerned with homes and cities, towns and villages, construction in three dimensions, civic design. Without architecture it is nothing. If we employ our best architects and town planners, we need not repeat past follies. We can create and preserve the two things that men need in which to live, a good town and good country; towns worthy of our history and our name and all the beauty of the English country side.
With the sentiments so powerfully expressed at the end of my hon. Friend's speech I am in profound agreement. This Bill transfers the planning powers of the Minister of Health to the new Ministry of Works and Buildings. That, I think, is right. I think it is also right not to disturb the situation in Scotland. It is possible to draw a distinction between planning and housing. I should myself very strongly object—I am quite certain the Minister of Health would object, and I speak as one who has been Minister of Health—to housing functions being taken away from the great local government Department, the Ministry of Health, because they are so closely interwoven with the whole of local government finance and structure that to do so would be to tear the thing up by the roots, to the general national disadvantage. The second purpose of the Bill is, by a change in title, to enthuse a new spirit in the public as to the intentions of the Government regarding physical planning.
I had something to do with the earlier discussions regarding the establishment of a Minister of Works and Buildings. I never liked the title, and I think the change to Minister of Works and Planning is a very definite improvement, which will give the public what seems to me to be the right conception of what Lord Portal's Department should be. Whether we transfer powers or not depends upon whether those powers, when transferred, are going to be properly used. This Bill is the preamble to further steps which, I hope, will be taken in the course of the next few months. It is right, I think, in the first instance to transfer your powers to the new authority, and then to build your extended legislation for town and country planning on the basis of your new Department. That is obviously the Government's intention. My hon. Friend referred to the Uthwatt Committee's Report. It is a good many months now since we had the Interim Report. It raised vital issues, which were complicated by the existence of the War Damage Commission, and it may be well now, though that was not my own original intention, to await the second Report of the Uthwatt Committee and to make one clean, good job of it by one piece of legislation. One hopes that the Final Report will be received within a relatively short space of time. I fear that some members of the Committee have got themselves rather overloaded with other work, some of which I regard as of much less importance. I refer particularly to one learned member of the Committee who is doing work in another Department and whose sage advice and knowledge are fundamental to the Uthwatt Committee's work.
Then we proceed to the next stage, which will be to build up a body of legislation affecting physical planning on a scale which this country has never known before. But that gives rise to other considerations. I have no doubt that most hon. Members have forgotten the statement I made on nth February, which dealt partly with this Bill, partly with the Uthwatt Committee's Report and partly with the implementation of the Government's undertaking with regard to a central planning authority, never a very fortunate term, to my mind, an ugly term and not as full of meaning as it might be. On that occasion I referred to the Report of the Royal Commission on the Distribution of Industrial Population, concerned with the location of industry, and the many questions which are involved. I have always held the view—it need be a secret no longer that on this Lord Reith and I did not always see eye to eye—that physical planning, however much you may develop the Department, as we are doing in this Bill, is not a single Ministerial responsibility. It goes too far. The reason why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I were in agreement as to his retaining the town and country powers is that he is also Minister of Agriculture. He is many things. He is the uncrowned King of Scotland. All authority centres in his hands. The really important thing about the central planning authority is to conceive it primarily as a body of Ministers who are in one way or another concerned with our future national development. I like the term "national development authority" far better than "central planning authority", because it is development, and at every stage in development you become involved in questions which affect the Ministry of Health on the one hand, questions of drains and sewers and so on, and the Board of Trade on the other, as regards gas and electricity undertakings, and the Ministry of Agriculture at almost every stage of urban development, and so on.
But the Ministry of Works and Planning is not the architect. It is only the master mason. That is to say, it is the function of this new Department, when it is established, to carry out what is the general national policy on all these questions of development. There was to be a Committee set up representing all these various Departments, and beyond and above that a Ministerial Committee of which I was to be Chairman and a Committee which I assume continues under the chairmanship of my right hon. and learned Friend. The important thing which the House must be clear about is as to where final authority is to reside. My own view—I took action after this statement was made in the House—was that the Chairman of this Committee of officials representing Departments should be my nominee, and that he should be the Secretary of my Ministerial Committee, because it seemed to me that final authority really ought to rest with, and final direction come from, the Ministerial Committee. I do not know that that was necessarily the view taken by the former Minister of Works and Buildings, but I made arrangements, unfulfilled because I found myself back as a private individual, to call a meeting of the Council of Ministers in the first instance, first, that it would avoid controversy in the future, but that the large broad lines of policy could be laid down for the guidance of the Committee which would be advising and assisting the Minister of Works and Planning. I am not sure how far that policy is now being carried into effect, because on the answer to that question would depend my own attitude towards the future stages of this Bill. I am the last person ever to be troublesome to anyone, but it is really fundamental.
I am certain that the House is very anxious about making a good job of the rebuilding of Britain after the war. Everybody wants that except the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), who, when I made this announcement, described it as flapdoodle. He would describe anything progressive and constructive as flapdoodle, so we need not worry much about his point of view. Members on all sides of the House, Members whom I never suspected of holding such advanced and revolutionary views, came to me and explained their concern that we should not make a mess of it at the end of the war, that we should beforehand get things planned and know what we were doing and why we were doing it. That really finally depends on my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster-General. [An HON. MEMBER: "On the winning of the war."] I agree that there will be no future if there is no victory—no future that anyone can live in. Let that be admitted. No one wishes to distract people's attention from winning the war. On the other hand, it is sheer folly to pretend that you can leave the solution of this problem until the armistice is signed. I am glad this new step has been taken. I hope the momentum will increase under the influence of my right hon. Friend, but I want the House to accept my view and, without belittling the importance of the Minister of Works and Planning, to regard him as the handmaid of a large national policy rather than for him to try to gather unto himself responsibilities which rightly belong to other departments. There is the great co-ordinator of the scheme. That is his final responsibility. If my right hon. and learned Friend will glean something from my very short experience of this, he will take that line and he will have no more faithful supporter than myself.
I would like to congratulate my hon. Friend on his first appearance in his new post. He showed great respect to the House by giving us such a meticulous and careful description of the powers contained in the Bill. Frankly, when I saw that such a Bill was to be introduced I visualised a really constructive Measure. Those responsible for its wording will agree that it does not achieve very much. It has many Clauses which my hon. Friend has been careful to explain do little more than change the title of the Ministry and add one new responsiblity to it. The Ministry has already had one alias. It changed its name from the old-established title of the Department of the First Commissioner of Works to the Ministry of Works and Buildings, and now it is to be the Ministry of Works and Planning. I am afraid I am a little appalled by the constant creation of new Departments. Since the last war they have been growing up almost like mushrooms. One after the other new Departments with grand sounding titles have come into existence, but I am afraid that human happiness has not been very much added to as a result. We have seen much the same process during this war. As to Under-Secretaries, they multiply like rabbits. I hope that my hon. Friend will be more successful than some of them and will not run into a burrow and disappear and never be heard of again as is the fate of some. Perhaps the most interesting part of his speech was his peroration.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) has rightly said, this is merely a machinery Bill. It will not make any vital, constructive contribution to the vast problems with which we are faced. The Royal Commission on the Location of Industry sat for many months. It was an important Commission, composed of distinguished persons, and it duly made its Report. This little Bill is, I suppose, the only result of its recommendations. The Commission made nine recommendations. They stated that piecemeal planning by local authorities was undesirable and that planning should be on national lines. For this purpose an authority national in scope and character was required. We shall not be very much further by the passing of this Bill; my hon. Friend admitted as much. We are in the same position as regards the power to plan as we were in before the Bill was introduced. The 1932 Act, which was heralded as a revolutionary scheme, has achieved very little result, and after a great deal of agitation we have this little Bill changing the title of the existing Ministry. Everything depends on the Minister. Lord Reith had a very short occupation of his post. He made some fine speeches in the House of Lords and foreshadowed a great policy of planning. I should like to know why he disappeared. Why has he been bumped off? Is it because his policy was too bold? Was he in conflict with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield, who did not want, as far as I could understand, a Minister with plenary powers to deal with the problems of a national plan?
We both went together.
My right hon. Friend reminds me that they were both sacrificed at the same time. It may be that both of them were too progressive in their views and that their views were in conflict, with the result that both disappeared. Now we are glad to welcome my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster-General. I gather that he is to be the linchpin; that he will bring all the Departments together and make them all work in team; and that he is to be really the super-planner. In that case it seems to me that the transfer from one Department to another will not make very much difference. I frankly believe that a national plan is necessary. I do not think it is possible to leave to the hundreds of local authorities the working-out of a new dispensation. The bombing of this country presents us with a great opportunity because of the public opinion which it has created. The whole nation has become conscious of the appalling conditions of overcrowding and the unsatisfactory development in our country.
I wish that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren) would not make remarks of an offensive character. He keeps making a running commentary during my speech which is most disconcerting. If he means to be objectionable, he has succeeded in his purpose. It is of no use my going on.
I beg to move, to leave out the word "now", and, at the end of the Question, to add the words, "upon this day six months."
May I be permitted to touch on one or two points raised by the Minister in introducing this Bill? He started by telling the House that it was not necessary to have the Bill at all. He said that it did not require statutory authority to appoint the Minister. He also said with regard to money operations that it was not strictly necessary. If it is an improvement in the building and planning of this country which is desired, one fails to understand why this piecemeal Measure has been introduced. From the Minister's remarks it is quite clear that it is only part and parcel of a very much larger Measure. That very much larger Measure would, if comprehensive enough, be hailed with satisfaction by all sections of the community.
But why set up another Ministry? We heard earlier to-day that the number employed in the Ministry of Works and Buildings was 13,150, and some of us rather fear, if a new Ministry of Works and Planning is to be set up, that thousands more will be employed, although the work is no different from that which is now being carried out by the First Commissioner of Works and the Ministry of Health. It appears to me that if the Commissioner is doing his duty faithfully and well there can be no object in depriving him of that position and creating a new Ministry. In fact, the Minister himself said that he would not be decapitated at once but would carry on until his duties could be merged in the new Ministry. Again, if the officials of the Ministry of Health are performing their functions properly in connection with town planning, why divert those functions to another Ministry? It seems to be making confusion worse confounded. Everyone connected with the building industry knows that at present there is the utmost confusion, with disastrous consequences to what I regard as the second most important industry in the Kingdom. I put agriculture first and building second, because the two essentials of human existence are food and shelter. The introduction of the Ministry in connection with the building trade has had this result, that since the war began 15,000 firms have been put out of business, and this is affecting the lives of millions of people. We are not legislating for a Commissioner of Works and Town Planning only.
I submit there ought to be a comprehensive Bill to clean up the confusion and that this is not the moment to introduce it. We ought to await the Report of the Uthwatt Committee and learn the views of the competent people on that Committee who have had an opportunity of studying the problem. It is no use my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary pointing out that we are going to have a succession of Virgil's groves and the like. That is no good at all. We must get down to practical things. It is no good raising mirages. We want something which is essential. One of the essentials enumerated by him is an absence of vulgar design. Hon. Members will naturally expect me to say a word on behalf of my own trade union. If we want to avoid vulgar design, we should employ qualified men to design and to superintend the erection of buildings. So much of the confusion of the moment is due to the fact that there are 1,700 local authorities operating town planning. They are a very great nuisance. As a rule a local authority more or less transfers its powers to a town planning committee consisting of people who think they have great ideals, and who know no more about building or town planning than the man in the moon. They talk the sort of stuff which would have been very welcome in Victorian drawing rooms, where ladies concerned themselves with antimacassars, aspidistras and that sort of thing. There is nothing real about it. When plans are submitted to the competent authority they are satisfied with one copy, but this busy body, the town planning committee, wants two or three copies. It creates endless delay. After all, it comes down to a question of opinion and of taste.
What is really needed is a big comprehensive Bill. At present we have special building Acts for this, that and the other place, and the Ministry of Health has to pass their by-laws governing building, including town planning. Then we get a group of people who are, so they say, interested in town planning. They form themselves into an association. They attempt to dictate to the biggest municipal authority in the world, namely, the London County Council. They tell them what they ought to do. Twelve houses to the acre is their idea of town planning, that is the maximum number, though it may be six. They thought that for London it ought to be 12. To talk about 12 to the acre in the middle of a big city is just nonsense. When the County Council proceeded to build they had to submit their town planning scheme to the Ministry, and it was found that in one area there was the equivalent of 50 houses to the acre, in another 69, and in perhaps the worst case of all, the Tabard Street area, 120.
Why the Government want to introduce this little Bill at the present time is beyond my comprehension. It leads us nowhere; it only creates a new Ministry with an endless number of officials. One of my greatest objections to this Bill is concerned with Clause 3, in which one finds one of the most remarkable passages which I have ever seen in a Bill. It says that the Minister may employ secretaries, officials and servants with the consent of the Treasury—
There is nothing new in that.
In theory, at all events, this House is supposed to control finance. I am aware that the opinion has been expressed that even Members on the Treasury bench are the "fags" of the Civil Service. I do not express that opinion, but it is fairly widespread. If that is the position to-day, the sooner Parliament asserts itself the better. We are the representatives of the people who find the money. Clause 3 does nothing to end the chaos but, I suggest, makes it greater. I object to any Minister being reduced to the position of a servant of the Treasury. It is wrong in principle and in policy. Those are two things which ought to be reserved to the House of Commons. Treasury methods of dealing with matters show a deplorable ignorance of business affairs. This House ought not to allow the Treasury to exercise control over money. It can only do so with the authority of the House of Commons and not as a separate Department. The Bill proposes to make the Treasury the master.
I ask the House to reject the Bill on those grounds alone, and I suggest that we should assert our position and say that the House of Commons must direct what shall be done. As in other Bills, if the Treasury wants to spend money, let it obtain the approval of Parliament. Clause 3 goes just to the contrary. In my submission, it should receive further consideration. If the Minister is wise, he will explain to the House of Commons the extraordinary position of the Treasury in connection with the Bill. I have refrained from going through the various Ministries one by one because it has been intimated to me that many hon. Members wish to take part in the Debate. I have tried to keep to my rule to speak for not more than 10 minutes, although there are many other things I should like to say. Probably the financial Clauses can be dealt with by far more competent speakers than myself, and other people can deal with buildings quite as well as I can.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I agree entirely with the view that my hon. Friend has expressed. If these matters are necessary, they should be dealt with in a bigger and very much more comprehensive Bill rather than be treated separately as they are to-day, and at some future time. I am not sure that they are necessary but if they are, they should have been dealt with at the proper time. Some of us have been asking relevant questions of the Minister, and we are apprehensive because there has been a complete omission to deal with some of the things which we think are wrong and which we know ought to be altered. It seems clear that the Ministry, in taking over the powers of His Majesty's Commissioners of Works, and seeking by the Bill to get a further extension, have adopted practices, internal and external, which, to say the least, deserve some explanation, in view of the criticisms that have been made in this House from time to time. Those criticisms are made no lighter by the answers which were given here to-day to certain Questions. We were told that the Ministry is employing, up to date, more than 13,000 people. Can we know to what extent the bureaucracy is to be still further encouraged by the Bill in its efforts against the people? We know that the Ministry up to now have been content to employ gentlemen who are still associated with their own private works, which have been brought into contact with the Ministry and in which they are directors. I do not think that kind of practice makes for good government, and it is not right that this kind of thing should be allowed, within the knowledge of responsible heads of the Ministry, to continue unchecked.
The Ministry are asking for further powers to be transferred to it. I should like to know why the Ministry give their approval to directors being employed in the heart and core of the Ministry and being able to give out work to their own firms, to result in £25,000 a year net profit? One of them gets expenses but no salary. That is stated to be the fact in at least one case, which I raised with the Parliamentary Secretary some time ago. That kind of thing ought not to be possible. If the Ministry desires to employ a professional gentleman, there should be, in the public interest, a cessation of activity on his part in the business of his firm. He should not be put in the position of being able to work at the Ministry and give out work to his own firm. Not a word in the Bill deals with that situation, which is only one instance. There are only two firms of architects in the country who received from the Ministry fees of over £20,000 a year during 1941. The House can judge of the volume of the work from that figure. One of those gentlemen is a director in the Ministry. It is only fair that some explanation should be given for this situation. It is against all forms of good administration. It is quite contrary to Civil Service principles and Parliamentary practice.
Many other criticisms can be made. Many of us think that this is not a good example for public management. It gives rise to comment which we do not wish to have in this country, and to misunderstandings which we do not wish to see existing and which we think should be ended. I suppose the Bill will cover the work which is to be reported upon by the gentlemen who, we were told to-day, is to go out of the country. I am not sure whether he has gone yet or is even on the verge of going.
In case the hon. and gallant Member should go on in this way for some time, I should like to remind him that he must not discuss details of administration. He must bear in mind the objects of the Bill. This is not an opportunity for discussing the general administration of the Ministry.
I will try to keep in Order, but I hope I may be permitted to say as a general principle, in view of what has happened in the past and of the disclosures we have had concerning the Ministry, that we regret that there is not something more detailed laid down in the Bill to clarify its provisions and to make sure that we know, understand and accept the principles under which it is to work. Of course public confidence in the Ministry is shaken. I think it is common knowledge that the building trade is at present labouring under complete confusion. In this loose, small Bill, which is brought out as a first instalment of the new transference of powers, nothing is said to allay our anxiety about that matter at all. Nothing is said as to how the building trade can be put into a reasonable state of order. The right hon. Gentleman on the Front Opposition Bench made great play with the fundamental importance of building and planning in the future, and with that, of course, there is general agreement, but whether this is the right time to discuss these dreams of the future, whether to-day is the right day to discuss what may be a mirage in planning, is another matter. There might, however, be something said in the Bill or in the explanation to it to give us some idea of how this chaos is to be taken away, and whether there will be some restoration of order to enable the building trade to play its proper part in the national planning which we are told is so essential in peace-time.
There are many other reasons why this Bill should not be taken. It is quite unnecessary. Let us direct our mind to victory. There will be a time when a large codified Measure will have to be introduced, but it is not now, and there will be a time, I hope, when the malpractices of the Ministry to which I have just referred and which I am sure are detested throughout the country will be ended, not, I hope, merely by constant criticism, but by a direction of the Minister who will first of all put in order his own house which is so much out of order at present.
Like most people in the House, I really dislike this Bill. I think it is unfortunate, I think it is incomplete. I do not think it contains most of the things we would all like to see incorporated in such a Bill, but at the same time, here we are in the midst of a war which sooner or later will end, and for that reason, in spite of my dislike, I intend to support the Bill. In this Bill we are not told what the Minister hopes to do; he does not give us any indication as to whether the planning authority will be independent of political control, which I think is very important. It is one of the fundamental things in the redevelopment of our country that we should have a body quite aside from politics to look after the planning situation. Now is the time and opportunity to make any contribution we can towards putting before the Minister the things which we think are of vital importance in the replanning of the country. I know that some may say that these things are not dealt with in the Bill, and I hope that in consequence I shall not be ruled out of Order, but I feel that, ever since the Lord Privy Seal told us that the Minister would be responsible for giving the Cabinet information as to the machinery for the reconstruction of England after the war, we have been waiting for this. It is the first chance we have had, and we should all take advantage of it. We can amend the Bill as it goes through its various stages and put into it the things we should like to see. The Bill may either mean the beginning of a very fine improvement for the country, or, if we are not Very careful, it may be one of the worst financial ramps that has ever been put over. We have to face that.
We must also look upon planning not as planning only but in connection with after-the-war re-employment. We heard from the Minister of Production the other day that after the war our shelves will be empty and we shall have to put new goods upon them, but where else shall we have to look to find employment on a large scale? To the building industry; whether it comes under the Minister of Works and Planning or not does not matter. It is the building industry which will be very important in this connection. In normal years the building industry gives employment to about 1,000,000 operatives and about 2,000,000 in ancillary trades—carpets, furniture, cups and saucers, curtains—all the things former' made by men now in the Services. If we can get planning properly prepared we shall be able to employ not only the 3,000,000 who were the normal number in the pre-war days, but we shall be able to double it or even possibly treble it. Such post-war provision for re-employment will be one of the greatest contributions this House can make towards conditions after the war, and although this Bill comes to us in an unpleasant form, it is of the greatest "importance that we should support it and try to help it on its way. [ Interruption .] On my right I hear someone refer to a bigger and better Bill. Let us make this into a bigger and better Bill as it passes through its many stages. Do not let us waste the time of the House by rejecting it. We had a Session not long ago, and we know what we heard then. To-day our duty is to stick to our task and get on with helping the war.
What does planning consist of? First we must look after our land, then the development of the buildings, the development of the avenues of transport and also the preservation of the things that are worth while—the beautiful sites and charming spots that mean so much to us. First, as to the use of the land. We know that the previous Town and Country Planning Act, that of 1932, was frankly a failure. It has been in operation for 10 years and has only put about 2 per cent. of the entire country under complete planning control. A repetition of that sort of legislation will not get us very far. This time we need something far more speedy. The need now is much more urgent. But, what is more, we must know this time what we want. Good agricultural land must go to the farmer. We must not compromise with such an issue. Green belts must be arranged round our towns, playing fields must be provided, and places of beauty and charm must be preserved, as must our coastline. I do not believe that anybody will disagree with those general principles. We must also leave a certain amount of land for the purpose of future building developments, because although we hear suggestions of a decreasing population, many parts of our great cities have been destroyed, and the people have to live somewhere, and many may prefer the rural areas. We shall also have carefully to reconsider the use of the lands inside our cities and towns which have been badly damaged. There arrangement must be replanned. There must be set apart some for industry, where people will work, other parts where they will live and others where they will play. We must have open spaces. I am one of those who hope that we shall not build up every area that has been knocked down. Let us leave some breathing spaces in our cities and not prepare to crowd them all up again. Let us leave the open spaces around St. Paul's so that we can see our architectural monuments, and do not let us go on congesting them, because by so doing someone will get a few pounds more in dividends. Let us leave some beauty for our children.
What are we to do about the fact that now so much of our land is in the hands of so many owners? That is a problem which is very difficult to handle. Can they be allowed to say they will build again on old sites? That cannot be done without reconsideration. Some owners are greedy; some are disinterested. If we would be just to all we must face this problem in a practical, bold, planning way, and we cannot leave things to individual owners without vision. We have to study what is best to be done. The Minister of Production last Sunday night, in his broadcast, said that in re-development work after the war we must have the organising power of the State and the driving power of the private individual if we are to get the best of things that will be available.
Also we must prevent speculation in land. Neither the small owner nor the State can be penalised on that account by land sharks or others, so I shall suggest that we have to have revolutionary methods which have never been attempted before in this country. I suggest that the land of this country which will be needed for replanning be assessed at a fair value as of 1939, its pre-war value. I suggest that the large areas which need replanning should be purchased by the State or by some State-controlled corporation, that they should be re-laid out by our best ability, among our town and country planners, and that we use the best knowledge available after we have acquired these sites to make their future arrangements the best of which we are nationally capable. Having done this, I suggest that we sell it back again or re-lease it to the public, so that it gets individual development and enterprise under suitable regulations. By this procedure we shall stop land speculation in damaged areas and we shall get the best possible rearrangement. When the State has acquired all this land at its pre-war value it can by so reselling it, gain for the nation the additional value due to the enhancement caused by better planning which will be a much better price than that at which it was bought.
I hope the hon. Member will not develop this too far. The Bill is to set up a certain Ministry, which no doubt will be concerned with certain legislation, but the hon. Member seems to me to be anticipating certain legislation which may concern this Ministry after its creation, and he is going far beyond the Bill.
I respect your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but I was endeavouring to explain in practical form the real meaning of planning as I understand it. It is a practical matter which has to have many practical applications, but I will not follow this line of thought if it will be out of Order. I think that if we do not do our planning on the oasis of larger units than in the past, we shall immediately face very formidable legal obstacles—in fact, I believe, absolutely insurmountable legal obstacles. I asked a Question in the House recently about the law of ancient lights. Take the case of the planning of a large new property where the houses have been blitzed. Who can tell where the windows were? What an opportunity that will be for the legal profession; they would be able to go on considering it for the next 20 years? Who could prove the location of the windows in the flattened buildings? Such delays are not going to help planning. We can only straighten that out if the nation solves it, I believe, by actually buying property.
It is argued that there is that power in the present Town Planning Acts to control development, but there are many corporations and bodies in this country which are exempt from such control. In reply to a recent Question the Parliamentary Secretary said that it would be too complicated a matter to find out where the ramifications of these exemptions from town planning would reach. All Crown property, possibly the biggest land holding in the country, is exempt. Railways are exempt, as are many other bodies. Surely such special privilege must be ended if we are to carry scientific planning through and to decide upon suitable regulations for our towns. Such regulations must apply to all, without exemption, in the country. We cannot permit such privileges to continue just because a private Bill has been carried through the House in the past. It is only by such all-encompassing control that we shall get planning applied in a satisfactory way.
I would call attention again to the fact that planning by itself is the beginning of the story. After the planning is done, to make it effective you have to make some use of the land, either crops for the farmer or buildings for man to work or live in. Like the land, our building situation too needs a lot of attention. We are grievously out of date. Our laws do not permit us to use new materials advantageously. Our regulations prohibit the use of new material or new processes, even if they have been approved for use in some other city or town.
With every further step he takes the hon. Member is getting further from the subject of this Debate.
I am calling attention to these matters, because we have heard of a number of the activities that are to be, if I may use the phrase, at the mercy of the new Minister. There are many more equally under his control, and I am only trying to indicate the ramifications to which his power will have to extend if his work is to be effective.
There are many other questions which are most important, but they too, I fear, are rather beyond the scope of this Debate, and so I will not deal with them here, but I do hope that before long an opportunity will be given to the House to consider all such relevant matters that are the responsibility of the Minister. As I said at the beginning of these remarks, planning of our country is a most serious subject to all of us now, and we feel very deeply about it. We do not want to have it mixed up with politics. We want it removed from such risks and for the Minister to have independent advisers who will give him the benefit of technical information which he can only get from people specially trained. His staff is undoubtedly expert in many ways, but there are others outside that group who are great architectural figures, if I may use the phrase, who have not been called in. I hope that when giving this matter consideration the Minister will take the very best available advice that he can get. Planning is a most exacting study. It is not easy. I do not think we are justified in letting planning go ahead without a great protest unless the Minister gets the right people to help him. I am afraid that at the present time some of our greatest authorities have not been used. We must realise that what will be done now will shape our country for the next 100 years. If we fail, we shall never be forgiven. We stand in a most responsible situation; for upon this House rest vital decisions affecting our land, our buildings, and our transport.
I should have liked, if it had been in Order, to have dealt with the question of the planning as it will be affected by the latest air development. No one has touched upon it so far; and I do not see how, on this Bill, I can speak about it, but it is unquestionably one of the most important assets we possess. We should not waste the time of the House by throwing the Bill back to the Department for reconsideration: But we must do our best to make it into an useful instrument, which will help us to reconstruct our country into something of great wealth and beauty—I will not say, "a place fit for heroes to live in," because we have heard enough of that sort of thing, but a place where people may live happily, and where they will be proud to have their children live and grow up in good surroundings, and if we succeed in this we shall not have lived in vain. I am disappointed with this Bill; but, in spite of that, I am going to support it for planning must go ahead if we are to be ready by the time the war ends.
I am always very interested in the speeches of the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom). He brings to this question of planning much inspiration, and I am sorry that the rules of Order do not allow him to expand his arguments into wider fields. How different his speech was from the two preceding speeches made from those Benches. I am sorry the Seconder of the rejection Motion has gone. He seemed to want to use this Bill as a peg upon which to hang certain charges against the Ministry of Works and Buildings. No doubt, whoever answers on behalf of that Ministry will reply to him. The speech of the Mover of the rejection Motion seemed to come out of the last century.
I was born in the last century.
Even if the hon. Member was born in the last century, one would naturally expect him to have progressed and made some improvement. He de- livered some very severe strictures upon town planning committees, and glorified the building fraternity. I am not going to say anything against builders generally. I think they do a good job of work, according to their lights. I should be the last to assert, however, that they are the most suitable people to plan this country. The hon. Member seemed to suggest that they were the best people to bring in a national plan and to deal with town planning generally. Does the hon. Member want building to take place in this country without order, without arrangement, in a sporadic way, along the roadsides, cluttering everything up, taking every view away, destroying agricultural land? It seems to me that that would be the inevitable consequence of leaving the rebuilding of Britain to the builders. The hon. Member was a voice from the far-distant past, a past which has created the very things which this Bill is designed to remedy. I am surprised that the hon. Member, who takes an interest in architecture and planning, should have delivered himself of such sentiments. The hon. Member for Maidstone suggested that only 2 per cent. of the area of Britain was under complete planning approved schemes—I think I have interpreted the hon. Member correctly—under control. It is rather misguiding just to say that. There is a considerable area under resolution, in which the powers of the Town Planning Act, 1932, can be exercised pending the final approval of the Ministry. We should make that quite clear.
The hon. Member is quite accurate. He said "can be." But they seldom are. When they appeal, they seldom get their appeals endorsed by headquarters.
I intervene merely to get the figure right. Even 2 per cent. is not right. The exact figure for schemes, both approved and operative, is 4.6 per cent.
I should be the last to claim that the Town Planning Act, 1932, was adequate for what we want to do, but we must give the devil his due. I know a certain big local authority whose area is under resolution, and the powers conferred by the Town Planning Act are exercised in that way by that authority. The Act has very great influence on plan- ning in this country, although, in my opinion, the powers are far from adequate. I am glad that the Bill has been introduced. It is nothing but an instalment of what I hope will be powers for the Minister to make a real national plan. Merely to transfer the powers of the 1932 Act would not be by any means enough. I was glad to hear the Parliamentary Secretary's promise that amending legislation would be brought in to improve the Town and Country Planning Act. If this Bill stood, and we were merely to implement it by a Bill crystallising the findings of the Interim Report of the Uthwatt Committee into an Act of Parliament, we should be just about where we were before the war. Merely to stabilise land prices at what they were in 1939 would not get us very far. One of the difficulties of local authorities in pre-war days was the exceptional rates of interest on money they required for public purposes and for planning. One of the difficulties connected with the Town Planning Act was that rural authorities could not do what they considered right in planning, because they were afraid of huge claims for compensation. If we were to implement the findings of the Uthwatt Committee, we should just put the position back to what it was in 1939. Local authorities would still be left to plan in bits and pieces, without any great co-ordinating plan from a national point of view; the small local authorities would still be afraid to do what they thought right; so amending legislation of the 1932 Act will be needed at the earliest possible moment, to give local authorities greater power, and to make it far easier for them to meet claims for compensation and to acquire land. I think I am in Order in discussing this matter.
I must ask hon. Members to bear in mind that any views on such amending legislation are a matter to be discussed when the legislation comes. It is all very well to refer to schemes of this sort, which it will be the responsibility of the Minister to introduce, but we must not go into details. The Bill proposes to set up a Ministry which is taking over the powers of at least two existing Government Departments, and it is legitimate to discuss what the business of that Ministry will be, but we must not go into either a detailed criticism of the present land laws or proposals as to what they should be in the future.
On a point of Order. If the hon. Member continues on the political side of this Bill and enters into details of compensation, betterment and various parts of the old Town Planning Act, it is only fair that other Members should have a chance of replying to him.
If I consider something that the hon. Member has said is irrelevant and out of Order, I cannot allow the matter to be continued by other hon. Members afterwards, whether by way of answer or otherwise.
I will try as far as I touch upon these matters to do it on a question of principle. I do not want to go into details, and I do not want to get out of Order. It is very difficult to discuss a matter of this sort without touching upon matters just outside the rigid confines of the Bill.
The whole point is that it is very difficult to discuss a matter which is out of Order without being pulled up by the Chair.
I was trying to discuss the administration of the 1932 Act, the powers of which are now being transferred to the Ministry of Works and Planning, and in this matter all kinds of questions dealing with local authorities are involved.
That was not an Act to set up a Ministry, and this is not a Bill to alter that Act.
I will bow to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but that brings the discussion within very narrow limits. I will refer to one of the things said by the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, and I hope I shall not be out of Order in so doing. I was chairman of a very important town planning committee for two years, and I am conscious of the difficulties of administration. I have always held the view that a local authority, in order to carry out the provisions of the Act of 1932, should have the right to sterilise land, and I sincerely hope that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will bear that in mind when dealing with any further stages of the clothing of this new Ministry. I was glad that he used the phrase "to secure the best use of the land for 'all purposes.'" That is a far better term than "planning." He mentioned a national policy, and I was very bucked by the end of his speech. That was the meat in his speech. The first part of it was rather a dry recounting of the legal difficulties of transferring these powers, and the meat of his speech was at the end.
The creation of a national policy with regard to planning is a vast undertaking, and the House must not delude itself about the size of this task. It is a policy which deals with agriculture, transport, the Board of Trade with regard to war factories, the Ministry of Health with regard to hospitals and housing, the Ministry of Labour with regard to trading estates, and the Air Ministry as far as aerodromes are concerned. All these factors have to be taken into consideration if a national plan is to be evolved from the deliberations of the new Ministry. I am not a bit concerned as to who is to be the final authority on this matter. According to the statement previously made in this House, in the first place, a committee of senior officials would discuss and bring all these things together in a co-ordinating way, and if agreement was impossible, then the question would be submitted to a Council of Ministers. I cannot imagine the newly created Minister of Works and Planning being the final arbiter in that Committee of Ministers. I do not know whether the Paymaster-General is to reply to the Debate, but, if he does, I would be glad if he would inform the House how he conceives that the question of appeal where disagreement occurs will be settled. Will he be chairman of the Council of Ministers, and, if so, will he be able to bring considerable influence to bear upon the minds of any recalcitrant Ministers who happen to sit on that board? That may possibly work, but it will be very difficult.
Take the question of the Ministry of Transport, for instance, which has the administration of the Ribbon Development Act. I was awfully sorry to hear the Joint Parliamentary Secretary say that these powers were not to be transferred to the new Ministry. If there is any Act that has done injury in this country and has created all kinds of bad development along glorious roads, many of them made at Government expense, it is the Ribbon Development Act. In any scheme of planning, the powers conferred upon the Minister of Transport under that Act ought to be given over to the Ministry of Works and Planning.
I was very sorry to hear him say that they did not propose to ask for these powers. It is anomalous that powers such as those which enabled ribbon development to take place on the side of these trunk roads, badly sited, sporadic and stretched out in long strings, without any order or plan, should not in future be part of the business of a planning Minister. I really cannot understand that, and I would like the Paymaster-General, if he replies, to deal with that matter and give more definite reasons why those powers should not be taken over. I shall be interested to see how this great national plan is to be formulated. We certainly need one. One significant feature about the whole thing is that planning now is to come from above and seep down to the local authorities, whereas previously the local authorities have been the initiating bodies, and they have gradually gone for consent to central headquarters. We are getting on good lines now.
The right hon. Baronet the Member for South West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) stated that local authorities could not be the creators of this new dispensation. I am sorry that the right hon. Baronet is not in his place, because I want him to be very careful in this matter. Local authorities are very jealous of their powers. Anyone who has served on a local authority—as have many Members of this House, including myself—know very well that local authorities have done an immense amount of good work. Probably there is no institution in the world that has done such a varied amount of public work as have the local authorities of this country. They feel in the localities that they have the right to take a hand in this business. It is the task of the Ministry to invest them with powers. It may be that some co-ordination will have to take place. These people ought to be given a big share in the administration of the Town and Country Planning Act. They have the right, and they pay rates. That is the democratic view, and they know their local situation. If the Ministry can give them guidance and direction and some idea of the form and shape upon which they desire them to plan, I feel sure that the local authorities of this country will rise to the occasion. Up to now they have been hamstrung by the possibility of this financial threat which is hanging over them. If we relieve them of that, then local authorities will rise to the occasion and with this national authority make a good job of it. I sincerely welcome the transference of these powers to the new Ministry, and I hope that in the near future the Department will ask for amending legislation to improve them.
I would if I may, join in the congratulations to my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary for the Bill he has brought forward to-day, which will, no doubt, have an easy and successful passage and will be the first of what I hope will be a series of useful Bills from the same source. But, having said that, I must say that the Bill falls far short of what many of us might have hoped. The Government seem in all this planning business to show a reluctance towards the realisation of planning and a distrust of the whole idea. They seem not able even to plan a planning authority, which is, perhaps, the first step that should be taken. We know that as a nation we are accustomed to proceed by improvisation, but surely the war atmosphere ought to get us out of that habit and teach us that sensible forethought is fundamental to the best national effort.
If I may exemplify the mistrust of Governments towards planning, I would like to remind the House that in the very early stages of the war was recommended here the establishment of an economic general staff, it being, of course, a vital condition to the development of our full power that there should be a body to study manpower and its best use. We now learn from the Seventh Report of the Select Committee on National Expenditure that no such body has ever been set up. It seems that the routine of the Government is, first, to reject or ignore quite sensible proposals made in this House; second, to get into a mess; and third, having got into a mess, to call in Sir William Beveridge to get them out of it. Planning policy has not yet reached the Beveridge stage, but there is real danger that it will. This Bill is a candidate for entry into the category of Government acts which are too little and too late. Too little because, obviously, it does not do what has been promised by the Government, although it is admittedly the first step towards it, and too late—not really too late, I hope—in that if the war extends until 1944, I very much doubt whether we shall be ready with this planning policy to face the situation with which we shall be confronted at the peace.
Let me remind the House of what was promised in connection with this planning business, and of what has been talked of in the Debate to-day, both from these benches and by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood). Promises began to be definite and precise in February, 1941. We were then told on Ministerial authority that the Minister was authorised in the preparatory work to proceed on certain assumptions, first, that the principle of planning would be accepted as a national policy and that some central planning authority would be required. We were told that this authority would proceed on a positive policy for such matters as agriculture, industrial development and transport. What I wish the House to note is that it is this central planning authority that was to be responsible for the creation of a positive policy. We are now told that the objective remains largely the same—that the Ministry's objective is to secure the right use of the country for all purposes. That is the function for which this Ministry is being set up. Further, in February of this year we were given rather more precise objectives. Three items were taken from the report of the Royal Commission on the Distribution of the Industrial Population:
Royal Assent
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners .
The House went; and, having returned —
Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to :
1. National Loans Act, 1942.
2. Army and Air Force (Annual) Act, 1942.
3. Sugar Industry Act, 1942.
And to the following Measure passed under the provisions of the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919—
Ecclesiastical Commissioners (Powers) Measure, 1942.
Minister of Works and Planning Bill
Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
I will continue the quotation which I was giving from the Report of the Royal Commission on the Distribution of the Industrial Population:
Why is it so important that, despite what the right hon. Gentleman the Mem- ber for Wakefield said, we should have a Minister of Planning? It is because we must first collect knowledge and information and have a sustained study of this vast problem over a long period of time. On the matter of location of industry—a fragment of this is being handed over to the new Ministry—the Government have accepted decentralisation from congested areas and the balance of industrial development. I suggest that there is one other policy which would be universally accepted throughout the country. We all know that before the war there was a steady trend of industry from North to the South. I think we all agree that that must be stopped, and that this vast aggregation of population in the South is a mistake and should not be permitted. We need a policy to reverse the trend. If any hon. Member tries to visualise the formation of a policy of that kind, he will realise both its vastness and the need for prolonged and accurate study. It involves half-a-dozen major Departments, and the Services as well as local authorities and industry, both employers and employees.
On this question of dispersal of industry, does the hon. Member advocate, for instance, the removal of collieries from the coal fields?
The hon. Member must realise that such remarks, however humorous and witty, do not lend light to the discussion upon which we are engaged. We shall not get the sort of knowledge we require without a permanent Department. I have every confidence in my right hon. and learned Friend, but what chance has he for giving a sustained study to this subject unless he has at the back of him a permanent Department? I am not particularly enamoured of one Department as against another, but I say that this subject, which the right hon. Member for Wakefield described as the task for a national development authority, must be in the hands of a single body for the purpose of study and examination in order to devise policy. People appear to be excited as to what shall be the precise powers of the new body. My hon. Friend the Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) would like it to have power to remove collieries from one place to another.
Perhaps my hon. Friend would quote me correctly. He advocated that policy.
I am afraid that my hon. Friend has not addressed his intelligence to my argument with sufficient precision. I am not so much concerned with the powers that are now or in the near future to be given to the central authority, as I am about the existence of a centre of knowledge. It is knowledge we need rather than powers, because when we have achieved the knowledge we shall then be in a position to allocate and to define the powers to be exercised by one Department or another. The central planning authority, or, if you prefer, the national development authority, should be a single permanent Department with a Minister in charge to give concentrated study to the most important of the postwar problems with which we shall be faced.
May I first congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. H. Strauss) on his baptism of fire? In spite of a certain amount of intermittent "flack," he was able to keep to his course and bomb the target accurately from a low level. I was particularly interested to learn that he had noticed the series of prepositions in one of the Clauses in the Bill. I confess that I am always a little diffident in speaking in his presence. He is such a guardian "of the English tongue, a veritable Cerberus protecting the niceties of the English language. I am always a little afraid that some maladroit phrase, some stumbling hesitation may prompt his prompt and righteous censure. He said that this Bill is only the first step, and perhaps some are a little disappointed that greater powers have not been taken. There are some who would argue that a Bill, at this stage, is not necessary. They argue that we should wait for a certain number of years after the war to see what sort of industrial society develops. These people contend that the population is bound to shift, and that it would, therefore, be foolish to plan for a society which may be radically different from that which now exists. However, I believe that we can count on certain stable factors. The big industries of this country cannot move for the very good reason that nature and the proximity of raw materials have placed them in the most convenient places. We cannot move the ports. We cannot move London, the Tyne, the Tees, the Clyde, the Mersey, Cardiff, Bristol and Southampton—these will always be centres of industry. We cannot move the South Wales coalfields, Cannock Chase or the North-Eastern coalfields. We cannot move the Lancashire cotton mills or the wool from the West Riding. Therefore we can count on these big industries always being in the same place.
What we want to fight against are areas depending solely upon one industry. We want no more Jarrows, no more Rhondda Valleys. We want areas with mixed industries, both light and heavy. Surely Birmingham is an outstanding example of the wisdom of such a policy. Even in the worst years Birmingham did not suffer like other areas. We can safely go on the supposition that certain big industries will always remain in their present positions, and that there will always be a big population in these areas. While it is true that industries will remain in certain areas, I hope that industry will not invade certain other areas. The time has come when good agricultural land must no longer be swamped by industry or housing. We must not repeat the mistake of the East End of London, where streets and houses invaded some of our best market-garden land. If you climb the tower of Barking Abbey, you will see how London has absorbed Plaistow, Stratford, East and West Ham, former market towns which sent their vegetables into the London market. I also feel that London cannot grow any more. It has become in fact a national menace, a sort of second Ruhr, far too vulnerable a target to massive air attacks by the enemy. I also feel that industry must not invade certain beauty spots. We must have no more Peace-havens growing up round our coasts. We must not allow industry to invade beauty spots like the Lake District, the Chilterns and the North and South Downs. In our Philistine blindness in the past we have not realised that the beauty of the country side is a national asset, an attraction to visitors from every part of the world.
The Bill is only the first step. I suppose that after the war big towns like Coventry and Plymouth will have to be almost rebuilt in their entirety. They will not be able to be rebuilt out of the local rates, and therefore they will have to appeal to the national Exchequer. Obviously the national Exchequer, when it has a say, will lay down certain policies. But I hope that regional traditions will be allowed to remain and that we shall not get a sort of standardised type of re-development all over England; that the architectural traditions of the West Country, the Cotswolds, the East Anglian towns, Cumberland and the North will survive.
I suppose many of us like to play with the idea of what these future towns will look like. In London I think we have a chance which has never occurred before in the whole of our history. I should like at some future time to be able to walk down Fleet Street and see from Ludgate Hill the dome of St. Paul's rising untrammelled by the press of surrounding houses. What a chance we have in the East End. Those who live South of the river enjoy a number of parks and open spaces, but North of the river those amenities do not exist.
We have Green Park and Hyde Park.
That is the West End. I was for two years in the East End and spent a little time exploring it, and I know that North of the Whitechapel Road there is a string of open spaces. There are Victoria Park, the Wanstead Flats and the Hackney Marshes, but in the area between the Whitechapel Road, Commercial Road and the East India Road there is a dense array of houses with very few open spaces. The destruction of this area will allow us to make a more attractive area in future. Already there are certain beauty spots in the neighbourhood. I wonder how many Members know the Island gardens in the Isle of Dogs. It is one of the best views in London. From the benches under the trees you look across the river to the colonnades of Wren's masterpiece, Greenwich Hospital. I hope that in future a visitor travelling East of Aldgate will be able to see squares with trees and grass where there are now destroyed working-class houses. I do not see why we should not develop the idea of the square, which is typical of British invention. Why should not the East End be an area of squares just like the West End? In fact, the East End already has two squares. Perhaps hon. Members who like myself have had occasion to visit the Thames Police Court already know Arbour Square and Albert Gardens. Why should we not also have high-level roads taking traffic out of London? Silvertown Way is an excellent example of a high-level road. I hope also that in the future we shall see areas zoned for industrial works. I believe that already North Woolwich and Silvertown are earmarked for industrial centres. Anyone who has seen the Battersea power station can surely realise how effective great modern industrial buildings can be.
I hope we shall not miss this chance. Why cannot we also, as in Nash's Regent Street, have arcades in shopping areas? How much pleasanter to be able to look at shop windows on wet days without having to avoid the spikes of other people's umbrellas and. without having water dripping down your neck. Then we can learn a great deal from America, which has done wonders with arterial roads and parkways. Some hon. Members may have seen the Hudson's Park Way, with double-deck bridges, so that no traffic ever meets head-on. And I only hope that, when the work of rebuilding is finished, from some far-off Elysian paradise, we may get a nod of approval from those two great spirits of British architecture, Inigo Jones and Christopher Wren.
I am sure the House has listened with very great pleasure and interest to the picture the hon. Member has painted of the kind of postwar England, and particularly post-war London, that he would like to see. As one who has some responsibility for the future planning of London, as Chairman of the Town Planning Committee, I listened with great interest to many of the things that he would like to do, but it would be natural for one who at the moment has the task of considering these things to appreciate the difficulties much more than does the hon. Member. One of the difficulties, for instance, is that, heavy as the bombing has been, even in the East End, it has not been quite heavy enough to enable one to start afresh. There are still a large number of good properties, even in the most heavily bombed part of London, which would have to be demolished but which it would not be possible to demolish without getting very great additional powers. This has been described as a first step. I wonder what it was a first step to. Is it a first step to the beautiful picture, with which we should all like to associate our- selves, which the hon. Member painted of the kind of Britain that we want? It seems to me that the Bill is-very remote from that picture and, if it is a first step, the last step is a very long way off, and a great many steps will have to be taken before we reach it.
I find myself in very great difficulty about the Bill. It is a first step, but one does not know what it is leading to. The House is being asked to transfer the town planning powers which the Ministry of Health possesses, and which it has operated quite satisfactorily, to a new Ministry without the knowledge and the traditions which the Ministry of Health possesses. That is a very big step to take, and it requires some justification. Unless we know what is to follow, it is really difficult to justify taking this step by itself. If, for instance, this were all and merely existing town planning powers were to be transferred from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Works and Planning, it would be a very bad step, because I am certain that the Ministry of Works and Planning would not operate the existing powers as satisfactorily as the Ministry of Health does. The only justification for transferring these powers to the Ministry of Works and Planning is that something much bigger, a different conception of town planning, is to take place and that it is suitable for another Ministry to undertake it. But what is this greater conception? That we do not know, and once more we are being asked blindly to accept a Bill presented by the Government. No doubt the House will accept it. It will take the Bill on trust in the hope, possibly even in the belief, that the next steps which will follow this first step will be of a nature satisfactory to the House.
It is rather unfortunate that this House has not had many opportunities of discussing post-war planning in this country. In another place there have been six different Debates. In this House there has been one, and that was nearly two years ago. The Government would have been well advised to postpone the introduction of this Measure until they could have given the House some indication of the kind of planning they had in mind. I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster-General will not misunderstand me when I say that post-war town planning received a great blow with the departure of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) and Lord Reith. I hope that one day we may know the reasons, but at present it is one of the mysteries of the war. I am not making any suggestion that my right hon. and learned Friend is not as capable of carrying out the duties as was my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield, but my right hon. Friend was a Member of the War Cabinet. He had status, he was the chairman of a committee of Ministers concerned with town planning, and by reason of his position in the War Cabinet he had the necessary authority.
My right hon. and learned Friend may have that authority. I do not know. He has been up to the moment carrying out his work in secret. He has been ploughing a lonely furrow, and perhaps we may know shortly what he has been doing and what his powers are. I am certain that what he has been doing he has been doing well, but the House does not know what is happening about planning. Lord Reith was a person who accepted his responsibilities with enthusiasm. I believe that he was an enthusiastic planner, and there are many people in this country who were looking forward under Lord Reith's supervision to seeing a very fine post-war Britain. Why he went I do not know. There are many people who believe that the departure of both the former Minister without Portfolio and Lord Reith was something which indicated that the Government were not considering postwar planning as seriously as many people wished them to. The departure of these gentlemen was regarded in a sense as a defeat for town planning. I hope that it will be possible to give the House some reassurance on this point.
I said that I did not think the mere transfer of this power was adequate. The country has now had some experience of the working of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, and it will be necessary, in order that post-war planning can be carried out effectively, that the machinery should undergo great alterations. Incidentally, I fully agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield when he said that the Ministry of Works and Planning must be the handmaiden of some other authority, whatever it may be, and should carry out the directions of this other authority. I should have preferred to call the Ministry an architect because it will have to carry out duties akin to those of an architect. Those duties, however, will be very important whether we call them the duties of a handmaiden or those of an architect. I think that my right hon. Friend rather under-estimated the importance of the powers which will be carried out by the Ministry. Whatever kind of plans will be conceived by my right hon. and learned Friend, they are capable of being carried into effect badly or well. According to the manner in which they are carried out will depend whether the postwar Britain will be a good place or a bad place to live in. Therefore, while I agree with the relationship between the authority and the Ministry of Works and Planning, I feel that my right hon. Friend perhaps under-estimated the responsibilities that are being conferred upon that Ministry.
The Town and Country Planning Act will have to undergo considerable modifications, so much so that it may well be necessary to introduce an entirely new Measure. I feel that the House would have been better served if it had had the terms of this Measure before it was asked to take a leap in the dark and transfer the powers to the Ministry of Works and Planning. Let me say what I conceive to be the kind of amendments to the Town and Country Planning Act which will be necessary in order that the powers should function properly. In the first instance, it will be necessary for planning to be carried out from the top. At present it is the small authorities who initiate planning. The Ministry of Health merely approves or disapproves of their schemes, but it takes very little part in initiating schemes. I visualise the Ministry of Works and Planning as an authority which will initiate the planning of the country. We have some 750 separate planning authorities, and most of them are merely concerned with the planning of their own areas, and perhaps, quite naturally, are largely concerned with the question of rateable value. It has been an impossible position to expect good planning to come out of the separate planning of these 750 different authorities.
Even in the Greater London area alone there are 133 separate planning authorities, each again concerned very largely with their own localities—quite naturally, because the local authority as at present constituted is bound to consider primarily the welfare and interests of its own area. The separate interests of these 133 different authorities do not naturally coincide with the interests of the area as a whole. Consequently, we get the kind of anomalies that the Town and Country Planning Act has created. Certain areas are practically entirely without open space, relying upon the open space of some other local authority, and they are permitting building to an extent that ought not to be permitted in a good plan. I realise that it has been possible under the Town and Country Planning Act to organise joint planning authorities, but I hope that my hon. Friend who will deal with this subject will not countenance the setting up of such authorities. They have no powers of raising money and they depend entirely on the good will of the different authorities. For my sins I happened to be a member of one of these joint planning authorities for a number of years. A good deal of money was spent and time wasted, but I cannot remember one thing that was done by this authority which furthered the good planning of Greater London. Eventually I ceased to be a member of it, and the London County Council ceased to be a member, and I think we were reprimanded by the Minister of Health of that day. But I feel that we were right in what we did. In my view this raises the question of the reorganisation of local government. My right hon. Friend will have a good deal on his plate if he is to take that within his purview, but I believe he will have to do so, because I do not think we can get good town planning without enlarging the areas of local authorities. That, again, is a matter which ought to have been fully considered before taking the first step of transferring the powers from the Ministry of Health.
I have indicated some of the difficulties under the existing law. I do not want to touch deeply on the question of compensation, but every Member who takes an interest in this subject knows that good planning has been held up by two things, and the first is finance. Local authorities have not been able to move a step without being bled white; they have not been able to reserve as open spaces land which is unbuilt on without paying heavy compensation. In the last 20 to 25 years we have seen much land under building development, with local authorities powerless to stop it unless they were prepared to pay large sums of money, which naturally they are not anxious to do, because such outlay reflects itself in the rates and any party which puts up the rates becomes unpopular. The second thing is that under the existing law it is impossible to prevent the continuance of certain evils in perpetuity. For instance, if a person owns a building which is contrary to a town planning scheme, even though that building is eventually pulled down, he is entitled to put up a similar building in its place, and he can go on doing that in perpetuity. In the same way, if a building is being used in a way that is in conflict with the town planning scheme so long as the owner chooses to continue that particular user he may do so, again in perpetuity. If the rights which property owners have are not to hold up indefinitely the good planning of our towns and cities greater powers will have to be conferred upon local authorities.
I think I said at the outset that the beautiful London which was described and which nobody is keener to see than I am, cannot be created unless far greater powers are conferred upon local authorities. At present they have no power to acquire land for town planning purposes. They can only acquire land for specific statutory purposes, such as education, housing and so on. I do not mind admitting that sometimes local authorities who have required land for development have chosen to give themselves the benefit of the doubt and describe it as housing land; but one cannot go far along those lines, and it will be necessary to confer far greater powers upon local authorities for the acquisition of land.
Finally, I think everyone who has had to do with town planning realises that at present it is entirely supervisory. Those who are responsible for town planning can picture to themselves what kind of an area they would like to create, but they have no power to do it. Let me give an example. Some years ago the London County Council obtained powers, for which they had to come to Parliament, to buy a large area on the south bank of the Thames between Westminster Bridge and Waterloo Bridge. It is an area which those who know London will agree urgently requires redeveloping. The land has been acquired and the County Council is now waiting for private developers to come along who will be willing to take a chance and develop this land in a manner of which the County Council would approve. That seems a very unsatisfactory state of affairs. That land has now been available for some years, and so far there has been difficulty in finding persons or undertakings willing to come along and spend the money. It is essential in such a case that the local authority should itself have the power to begin development, to make a start in the hope, and probably that hope would be realised, that afterwards private developers will come along and develop it in the way the local authority wishes. It may well be that the London County Council will have that land on its hands for years until it pleases somebody to come along who thinks he can make a profit out of it. I do not put this forward in any political sense, but the fear of having land left on their hands for some years is enough to prevent, at least to discourage, many local authorities from undertaking important developments.
I hope, therefore, that my right hon. Friend will make a note of this point and see what he can do, because I see no better method of securing development than that which I outlined in the example I gave, and under present conditions that way is very much discouraged. I shall take this Bill on trust. It is a first step to something—I do not know where and I do not know when. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings did not tell us when it was proposed to transfer these powers, but I hope he knows when. I am prepared at any rate to take the Bill on trust, and I hope that the House will also take it on trust in the hope and belief that it will really lead to something worth while, to the kind of Britain which every Member of this House would like and which, I believe, we intend to get.
It seems to me that we are discussing one of those questions which put this House into a sort of dreamland in which it is completely detached from all the realities of life. When it gets into that state it usually continues so to the end, and an interruption which I made during a previous speech was an attempt on my part to bring it back to realities, at any rate for a moment or two. The hon. Member was advocating, in accordance with the Montague Barlow Committee's report, that direction should be given from headquarters to industry as to where it should locate itself. He was talking about the congestion of certain industries in certain areas, and I made the perfectly innocent suggestion that in parts of my native Lancashire, where, as in other parts of the country, there is very serious congestion of colliery workings on the coal fields, it would be highly desirable that the collieries should be removed from the coalfields and distributed about the country. The next speaker rubbed in my point, because he pointed out that it would be equally reasonable in connection with the location of industry to take the ports away from the sea coast and locate them inland. There have been endless other examples of what I meant when I say that the House is in a sort of dreamland, completely detached from all the realities of life. We have a sort of fashionable opinion in this country that something called "planning" is vaguely beneficial. We think the same about something which we call "education." We all loathe education just as we all loathe planning, but we have all been brought up to believe that there is something nice about them, and something very virtuous in advocating planning and education. As a matter of fact, as I think the House must agree, every Debate on education for years past has been entirely about the number of free meals provided and the amount of teachers' salaries, and that is all there is in education, so far as we were concerned.
I support the rejection of the Bill because, whatever its effect, the Bill proposes to enable Superior People to override even those small private liberties which are left to us to-day. In order to show that I do not speak from personal prejudice against these admirable people who call themselves planners, I would remind the House of the history of this planning business. In historical times the first good example of town planning was that of the Tower of Babel. At that time, inundations seemed to be somewhat frequent upon the face of the earth, and therefore the town planners planned the Tower and proceeded to erect it. Like planners to-day, only more so, they imagined that things were always going to be as they were.
The next prominent example which occurs to me in history is the case of the Emperor Nero. Students of Roman history will agree with me that contemporary writers drew attention vividly to the housing conditions which existed in Rome at the time of Nero, and to the housing of the working classes. There were great blocks of tenements overhanging the streets and collapsing at frequent intervals. Therefore Nero, being a town-planner, and having the power that the Bill will give to some hon. Gentlemen in this House, burned the whole damned place down. Had he survived, he would have planned Rome exactly how Nero thought that Rome ought to have been planned. What amenities he would have provided for in the city I will not tell the House. The next example in history of any great prominence is Napoleon III of France, who completely ruined Paris. A further example is that of William II, Emperor of Germany, who is to some extent responsible for those abominably planned Rhine towns like Dusseldorf, beautiful in every respect, but utterly impossible to live in because the streets are straight and everything is planned so beautifully that they are fit only for Germans to live in.
The supreme planner of all—I omit for the moment Mr. Stalin, because he is our Ally at the moment, and I do not want to make any remarks about him—is Adolf Hitler, who is going to plan the whole world. He is doing so most successfully in his own country. What are we fighting this war about? We are fighting to avoid planning. [ Laughter .] It is no use laughing; what I said is true. The totalitarian State is the planned State. It is based upon the supposition that some superior person knows what is good for people better than they do themselves. That is the whole theory of the totalitarian State as it exists to-day. We are simply talking cant and humbug if we advocate an extension of planning in this country and at the same time conduct a world war against that same theory being imposed upon us. The whole scheme of planning of a country is the sort of thing to impose, not upon a victorious England, but upon a defeated Germany. After all, what have our statesmen said we are going to do when we have won this war? We are going to plan Germany thoroughly, through and through.
Scotland is just as much an integral part of the country as England is, but our Scottish friends have wisely contracted out of this matter, and that is the gravest possible injustice against the rest of the United Kingdom. The same blight which falls upon England ought to fall upon Scotland. Scotland must take the rough with the smooth and be united with this country in its trials and tribulations as in its triumphs, victories and successes.
Having looked at the historical period, and lightly touched upon some of the great planners of history who hitherto have not been regarded as models of what rulers should be, let us consider what would have happened in prehistoric times if planners had been in existence. At one remote period, instead of living in houses we lived in trees, and gracefully swung from branch to branch by our tails. Fortunately, there were no planners in those days, or the whole country would have been planted with nut trees in order to provide suitable food for the future population. [ Laughter .] It is no use laughing; it is a fact, and it is also a fact that, from beginning to end, the progress of the human race has always been brought about by the revolt of individuals against the common opinion of the time. I challenge any hon. Member present here to give an example of real progress, biological or of any other kind, which has not been due to the revolt of a few individuals against the prevailing opinion of their time. After all, we should still be little, amorphous lumps of slime and not human beings, if it had not been for the revolt of individuals against the mass mind. In more serious terms, that is what we are fighting the world war about; it is against the attempt of rulers abroad to produce the mass mind and to eliminate the individual mind and soul; in other words, to eliminate all that makes religion.
Let us suppose that town planners had been existent in this country about 150 years ago. What would have been the position? My native Manchester possesses, and I believe is very proud of, one of the worst slums in the whole world, known as Ancoats. Town planners have represented Ancoats as containing the worst conditions anywhere in the world, and I believe justifiably, although I believe Leeds can run it pretty close. Ancoats was planned with great wisdom. It did not grow up haphazard. In the early days of the cotton industry, when Mr. Watts invented what he called his "fire engine," and water wheels were no longer necessary, mills were put up even where there was no water power. We started buildings mills, and our ancestors used to employ persons of the age of three years and upwards for anything up to 18 hours a day, day in and day out. It was no use building the hovels of the poor a long way away from the mills, because after the day's work they could only crawl a few yards to their homes.
Therefore, being town planners, our ancestors built the hovels of the poor as close to their mills as they could, and so they produced the slums of Ancoats. Is it not a perfectly true argument that if perfectly sensible planning 150 years ago produces Ancoats to-day, it is obviously highly probable that equally effective planning to-day will produce something equivalent to Ancoats in 100 or 150 years? [HON MEMBERS: "No."] I must apologise to the House for being so long, but so rarely on occasions of this sort does anybody get down to brass tacks that it is desirable that somebody should make some attempt to regard the matter from a sensible point of view. Suppose that even 50 years ago this planning had been in existence and had been all the rage and fashion of the day. Transport problems then were different from what they are to-day; there were no motor-cars or electric trains. Let us suppose that this planning had been going on then. What would have happened? The whole country would have been covered with stables in which to house the horses which were to develop the transport of the country, and now we should have had an enormous redundancy of stables all over the place. That is exactly what is happening to-day. The planners are all acting on the supposition that things will always be as they are now, only more so, and that people's demands and requirements will always be the same, therefore the only thing to do is to provide them with still more of what they want to-day. I am afraid, however, that they do not carry out their theories. I said just now "to provide people with more of what they want," but the whole essence of this thing is not to provide people with what they want, but to provide them with what somebody else thinks they ought to want. That is the reason for planning.
The American Constitution is based on the supposition that every individual is entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Unhappily in many quarters in this country to-day the view prevails that nobody is capable of judging what is best for his own happiness, but that somebody must judge for him. We have bred up a race of Superior Persons, who are never happy unless they are interfering with other people's private affairs, and town planners are perhaps the worst offenders. Let us get back to the actual personalities of these town planners. When a man has been abandoned by his relations and has found it impossible to earn his living by any honest means, he runs about the country saying, "I am a town planner; give me a job," and he goes on running about the country saying that—though what a town planner is, nobody knows; it requires no qualifications of any sort except the assertion that you are one—until they give him a job of some sort or other. Then he gets a lot of large-scale ordnance maps, and various coloured chalks and pencils and French curves, and draws squiggly lines across the maps. I came across one case of a man drawing a very large salary who constructed on the map an arterial road, very close to my own district, but who never noticed that at one point, owing to the contours, a tunnel at least one and a half miles long was necesary on his road. These are the people to whom we are going to give our unhappy country to be messed about. It is they who will tell people what is good for them, whether they like it or not. After all, what is the difference between public works and private works? If you get down to realities, the difference is purely this: private works are works which people want, and public works are things which people do not want. Otherwise why are they public works?
Two considerations are involved in planning—first of all the practical and then the aesthetic. I have pointed put one or two reasons for supposing that the Superior Persons to whom I have referred are not very good on the practical side. If they had their way, they would move ports so that the coast should not be congested and spoilt, and would move collieries off the coalfields because the grouping together of collieries is very ugly. One member suggested for instance that the Welsh coal valleys should not remain entirely dependent on coal because if the coal trade were depressed it would be very serious for the population. I venture to say that those hon. Members who know the South Wales coal valleys will agree that it is going to be very difficult to get other industries into these valleys. I know them pretty well, and I could not imagine any industrialist who was not completely mad going and settling down there. In the first place, the very difficulties of the ground itself make it almost impossible to put works of any size there, and the difficulties connected with the local population are also considerable.
On the practical side, I have given another point of view and have pointed out to the best of my ability that the town planners of history, and planners generally, have been representative of what we should call a totalitarian State, such as we profess to be fighting against at the present time. Now we come to the aesthetic side. Again the Superior Person comes along. He never seems to realise that matters of taste, as was found out a very long time ago, are not very good things to argue about. Aesthetics are concerned with values and we are always arguing as if value is an intrinsic quality. I have noticed in this House again and again, whatever we have been debating, that we have fallen into that fallacy. Everybody who ever thought about it knows perfectly well that value is something attributed to a thing, and is purely a matter of opinion. You cannot lay down an aesthetic norm and say, "This is right and the other is wrong." All you can say is, "I think that is good, but somebody else thinks it is bad." Let me give an example. There was a period in this country when the Albert Memorial was regarded by educated opinion as a much superior building to the Parthenon.
No. May we ask for some authority for that statement?
The proof is to be seen in the streets of Oxford in the form of a pseudo-Gothic building designed by Ruskin himself.
Who has any respect for Ruskin's judgment these days?
At that period, I venture to say, Ruskin was the very high priest of taste. He is not to-day, and that is exactly the point. Aesthetic standards are purely matters of fashion, varying almost from day to day and certainly from year to year. In the case of painting, for instance, values are settled very largely by Hebrew art dealers. An art dealer gets an option on some unknown painter's paintings, and by means of the Press and the Superior People to whom I have referred, builds up their value so that everyone believes that they are divinely inspired; if one wants to buy them, one has to pay excessive prices. When one's estate is sold after one's death, paintings bought at £25 per square inch go for so much an acre. From year to year artistic taste varies, and the highbrow of to-day is the lowbrow of to-morrow. The man who says that he is a judge of taste, that he has studied these things and thinks that the pornographic attempts of the most degraded African negroes represent the finest form of pictorial art, because he happens to have the Press and the dealers behind him, that man becomes the priest and even the high priest of artistic taste for that particular period.
I have not the slightest doubt that in the days when those lovely Cotswold villages were being built the best taste of the age said they were awful, that they were perfectly shocking, that they ought to have built them in the way they built places like Chatsworth, which to the modern man is the abomination of desolalation! We cannot afford to stereotype taste. This is an attempt to do it, an attempt to lay down the law of what constitutes aesthetic values which, I have endeavoured to prove, is impossible because value is not a permanent thing but a matter of opinion varying from age to age and from person to person. That is my reason even more than the practical side for opposing this Bill today.
Finally, for planning one requires to have two preliminaries: first of all, data to go upon, and, secondly, some sort of idea of what one is planning for. It is obvious from speeches to-day that neither of these two preliminary conditions are present in this country to-day. We do not know yet what the issue of this war will be, although we are convinced that it will be victory in some form or other. But what may seem to us at the time a victory may be very far from complete victory. It may produce a condition of affairs when, although hostilities proper will have ceased, at least a generation in Europe will have to be ready for war instantly and war in its most horrible form. To put it at the extreme, it is by no means certain whether the next generation in this country will live above or below ground. That is the extreme case, but without going to the extreme we know perfectly well that it is possible that this year is only the preliminary to the third world war.
Consider the seriousness of the position. There are already men actively engaged in producing a state of affairs which will lead to an inconclusive peace. One can clearly see, in the action of certain men prominent in this country and elsewhere, that a defeatist party is deliberately being built up in this country; and attempts are being made to sow dissension between ourselves and our American Allies. Any reader of the newspapers must see that steps are being taken to weaken this present Government with a view ultimately to an inconclusive peace. In that case, where is your planning?
It would be a great help to the nation if the hon. Member would actually name the newspapers he means.
This is not the occasion to do that.
Why not?
The hon. Member knows better perhaps than any Member, so why does he ask me? Even supposing that we get a conclusive peace, we do not know yet what is to be the industrial future of this country. This at least we do know, that if the Atlantic Charter is carried out in the spirit as in the letter, the industrial days of Great Britain are over, and we have to face the fact which we should have faced long ago, that an industrial age is only one stage in the development of a nation, and a very primitive stage too. Before the war we pursued a policy of driving our people back into the mills and works and mines instead of leaving less progressive races to do the hard work of the world. It is certainly clear, so far as heavy industry is concerned, that unless we go on attempting to make ourselves self-contained we can never preserve the standard of living which we regard as necessary for the workers in our heavy industries without some artificial means, and that is ruled out by the fact that in the spirit of the Atlantic Charter Declaration there will be no prohibitive tariffs.
I make no secret of what I have felt all along. I believe it is to the benefit of this country that the industrial age in this country is over. Thank God it is over. It is a miserable state of affairs for any nation to be in. We set out at the beginning of the nineteenth century basing our whole practice upon the theory that to become great as a nation is to become richer and richer, without any further idea beyond a great Empire. The state of the world shows us what is the inevitable end of a civilisation built on that basis. Everyone knows now that the best way to get richer and richer and have a higher standard of living is the totalitarian State, with its elimination of all which makes man more than an animal, as they have found in Russia, Italy and Germany. I will not believe that this nation of ours is so utterly degraded as to set that ideal before it at this time of day. The ideal of the nineteenth century, summed up in the words of Lewis Carroll in which the White Knight says:
I am not proposing to close the Debate, but I have been asked by my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, who introduced the Bill, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster-General to reply to one point which has been raised. There will be an opportunity for others who wish to continue the Debate to do so. My hon. Friend who has just sat down sometimes embarrasses and sometimes disappoints me. He embarrasses me with questions out of the blue when I have not the material to reply to him. I have brought a lot of material to-day but he did not ask the questions to which it relates. He entertained me however, and the drab future which he pictured should, at any rate, be enlivened from time to time by his speeches.
The hon. and gallant Member for East Leicester (Major Lyons) to-day raised some points in regard to my Ministry. In reply to Questions from time to time I try to represent the justice, fairness and propriety of the staff we have in our employ but apparently in the language I use, or because of the short time at my disposal, I am not effective in conveying this to my questioners. The hon. and gallant Member made two statements. First, he said that building trade labour was in a state of complete confusion. What authority the hon. and gallant Member—who is not now in his place—has for that statement, I do not know. To my knowledge, the position is exactly the reverse. To make an assertion of that kind without any qualification might lead the uninitiated, if there were no reply, to think it true. The other statement was one made for the first time, in my hearing, in this House. (My hon. Friend the Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) has never imputed malpractices; but the hon. and gallant Member for East Leicester called attention to what he regarded as certain malpractices. That is a terrible accusation to make, when it cannot be justified. I can assure the House, as I have done on previous occasions, that both the present Minister and his predecessor have examined scrupulously, in accordance with the terms of the Treasury circular, the position of people who come into our employment, and that great care and propriety are observed. To stand here defending something which was improper would be against my whole training and the whole of my beliefs. I would not do it: I would take other steps. The hon. and gallant Member made play with the extended personnel of the Ministry of Works and Buildings. He talked about the 13,510 people. When he asked what the last ten were doing, I said that they were looking after the other 13,500, and that I was well satisfied that they were under adequate supervision.
I would like to call attention to some of the developments in the control of the Government's building programme, which has involved the expenditure of millions of pounds. On one job we had over 26,000 men employed. The site was over 1,200 acres in extent. We started the job at the end of February, and had finished it, and handed it over for operation, by July of the same year. We were spending over £1,000,000 a month. In 12 months we had the job completed. Some of the jobs that my Ministry have undertaken have been gigantic. I would like an opportunity of describing to the House the expedition with which the jobs are handed over to other Departments. With regard to the control of certain building material, about which hon. Members have asked, in order to make the maximum use of labour, we have been compelled to control civil building. It is remarkable how many people want to build now, whereas when we had a large army of unemployed nobody wanted to build. A considerable extension of the building services previously operated by the First Commissioner of Works has been put into operation.
We have brought into the Ministry, from civil life, men of great experience and capacity, and they have worked on a scale which would surprise many Members. Both the late Minister and the present Minister have been well aware of the importance of exercising the greatest care in appointing to a post in the public service any individual with business interests. The innuendo that has been repeatedly uttered, that once a man has been connected with a firm he can no longer be honest, is untenable. I beg the House not to continue on this persecuting line. It distracts men from their work, and is not in the interests of the country. If we ask for voluntary labour, if we ask people to render voluntary service to the country, and they come forward, is it proper to reject their offers? As a public man myself, I am as anxious to preserve public morality, honour and cleanliness as anybody; and I state definitely that I am perfectly satisfied that there is nothing dishonest or improper in what is going on. Both the present Minister and the previous Minister have taken great care to satisfy themselves upon this point in every way. My officers have furnished full information as to the nature and extent of their private interests to the Minister. That is not a matter for me, but I am made aware of what their disclosures are. They have satisfied the Minister that their interests will not conflict in any way with their duties in the public service. The House heard yesterday the terms of the Treasury circular. The Minister considers that the appointments in question satisfy both the letter and the spirit of that circular, and that they can be defended if necessary.
The hon. Member informs us now that the Minister is aware of the private interests of these persons. He informed us yesterday, at Question Time, that he did not know. In reference to the particular case of one person in very high office, I asked whether he was receiving an income from the firm, and the Parliamentary Secretary informed roe that he did not know. Now he says that he does know.
I am telling the hon. Member the answer I gave in the House. Yesterday I said what was the truth, and I will repeat it to-day. If a person is associated with a firm in private life and has interests in the firm, apart from his salary, I am not able to decide the extent of his personal income, whether he receives any bonuses, whether there is a fee independent of that, or what his own private interests might be. I said yesterday, as I said again to-day—
This is a very strange doctrine. Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that when a person is employed by a Government Department, which is in contractual relationship with a firm of which that person is a member, the Government Department is not concerned to find out the extent of his relationship with that firm?
I do not think that that question is in the correct perspective.
I understood that the hon. Member was replying to what was said in the Debate. He would not be in Order in replying now to what was said at Question Time, as it has nothing to do with this Bill.
The only point I wanted to make was that the Minister, when making any appointments of this kind, is satisfied as to the private interests of the individuals whom he is appointing. The individuals appointed have, ever since their appointments, given full-time service to the Ministry, and have taken no active part in the running of their firms.
The drawing of money is the point.
There was no money drawn from the Ministry simultaneously with the drawing of money from the firm in question. I have said that time and again, and I repeat it. There have not been two salaries. Up to the date of resignation from the firm, no salary has been paid by the Ministry. This suggestion of malpractice, as though something had been done which was against the public interest, is very serious. It is absolutely without honest foundation; and I hope that before anyone makes such charges he will acquaint the persons concerned, so that they may be in a position to answer him. Such a term as "malpractice" has been used. I say definitely and honestly that my Ministry is as much concerned about this as Members of Parliament. The points raised by hon. Members from time to time were duly communicated to the previous Minister and to the present Minister. Both were satisfied, after examining the position, that nothing improper had taken place and that the terms of the Treasury Circular, accepted on all sides, had been fulfilled in the letter and the, spirit. Therefore, I regret that such statements have been made and I have felt it necessary to make this explanation.
It stands recorded, I believe, that Hannibal, the Carthaginian general, flushed by his victory at Cannæ, was dismayed when he heard that the very land on which his army was encamped had just been sold in Rome at approximately its full price. Such was the confidence of the Romans in victory over their Punic foes. I hope that the implications of this Debate will not be lost on Rome, Tokyo and Berlin. We are so confident of our future victory that we are planning a better world. I cannot help thinking that this Bill is a very good step in the right direction. It is rather a narrow one. A large number of Members have slipped off on one side or the other from its narrow path, and they have been brought back again on to it both by yourself, Mr. Speaker, and still more by your Deputy. I was, therefore, extremely pleased that the very interesting, humorous and eloquent speech by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), who was wandering away the whole time from the Tower of Babel to the Albert Memorial, was nevertheless in Order. It was one of the best speeches that I have ever heard. I enjoyed it very much. I have no kind of criticism what ever—beyond perhaps the fact that every statement he made was unsound and all his judgments were totally false.
The object of this Bill, a very proper one, is to ensure that we shall have better planned towns and cities. We have a rather mixed record in this particular respect. Early in the 13th century a new city was laid out at Salisbury, one of the finest pieces of town planning in all mediæval Europe, and right up to the present time the citizens of Salisbury have enjoyed the foresight their fathers showed in the early days when the city was founded after old Sarum on the Downs was abandoned. Towards the end of the 13th century a beautiful town was laid out, but, unfortunately, never developed, at Winchelsea, and where Edward I intended a great city to stand there is nothing but a small village at the present time.
One of our greatest architects, Sir Christopher Wren, had an admirable plan for the rebuilding of London. Unfortunately, that plant was never carried out, although its idea was used by l'Enfant in the building of Washington, the finest of all modern cities, perhaps. If we had had this Bill at the latter part of the seventeenth century, Wren's plan for London would have been carried out and this Metropolis would have been one of the noblest cities of the entire earth. Towards the end of the eighteenth century two architects named Wood nobly laid out Bath. At about the same time, Scottish architects Craig, Adam, Playfair laid out a really splendid and magnificent new town at Edinburgh. We have had the advantage right up to the present time. These cities are splendid monuments for all time to come It is almost exactly 100 years ago since Middlesbrough was founded It stands a miserable example of bad town planning. It is worse than Ancoats, to which the Member for Mossley referred. I had the privilege of living for something like six months in the university settlement at Ancoats and so know something of the district.
This Bill, I say, is valuable because it will inevitably make more important in the country that admirable body of Government servants who are carrying out one of the finest works in their own field in this land, and about whom I do not remember to have heard anything whatever in this House since Bilston gave me the high privilege of being one of its Members. I need hardly say that I refer to His Majesty's Inspectors of Ancient Monuments. Their laying-out and preservation of many of our castles, abbeys and other ancient buildings that come under their care are among the very best things our Government have sponsored. We all know how very difficult it is for people connected with one Government Department to have anything to do with another. The instinct of all of them is always to pass the buck to one of the others and say it is not their business! Save, of course, for those who dwell in the light that no man may approach unto, right at the top, no one may pass from one Government Department to another. That is the privilege alone of His Majesty's Ministers. We all know that any Minister can take over any portfolio and carry out all its duties with equal brilliance. These admirable Inspectors of Ancient Monuments, being connected with the Office of Works, were not allowed to give their services for town planning or things of that kind, because it was not under their Department. I know this very well—I had the experience myself when I was trying to make it possible to preserve a very important historic monument in Edonburgh; those inspectors were not allowed to be seriously consulted, the reason being—and everybody knew it—that they agreed with me that it was extremely important for Edinburgh that Taylors' Hall should be preserved.
This Bill does not go far enough. I am going to put down an Amendment to make it obligatory that the Inspectors of Ancient Monuments—they are not a joke—shall be consulted in all town planning work. I am quite aware of what will happen to that Amendment. It will be received with great sympathy by the Parliamentary Secretary. He will point out in the kindest way, however, that if I knew a little more about it, I would not have put it down, at least not in that particular form, or he would gladly have accepted it. But that what I have in mind will be achieved with ever so much greater efficiency in some other way. The Amendment will, by leave, be withdrawn. I do not expect anything else. But it will be the thin end of the wedge. It will get people accustomed to the idea that, in the rebuilding of such cities as Coventry, Bath, Bristol and so on, it is extremely important to learn from those who have specialised in ancient buildings how far the old monuments of the cities can be preserved and made the centres of an adequate and proper town planning.
There may be some people who will be perfectly satisfied that we should build our new towns in imitation, let us say, of Chicago or Kansas City. I entirely disagree. We have a splendid legacy from the past; it is our duty, in every possible way we can, to utilise it and to hand it on to generations yet to be. My hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom) expressed the hope that the new town planning authority would not be political. I have the privilege of the friendship of a good many of His Majesty's Inspectors of Ancient Monuments, and I do not think I have ever discussed politics with one of them. I do not know which way any of them would vote. They are not political. It is indeed a curious fact that politics and archaeology hardly ever go together except perhaps when an eminent Member of this House tells us, against all evidence and all history, that the Tower of Babel was a magnificent example of town planning. If that was so, why was it never finished, instead of its builders quarrelling, going their own ways and speaking different languages? We must welcome better town planning and a more enlightened use of everything that has been handed down from generations gone by. I have been connected with the American Bureau of University Travel, and I know what a certain class, at any rate, of Americans from their colleges want in this country. I believe that we can do a very great deal to make our cities real object lessons of past history, really valuable centres of study to people from the United States and elsewhere, in a way that will be extremely valuable in the difficult days to come.
There is one other point which I think is of enormous importance, and I hope I shall not be out of Order in introducing it at this moment. There is a great vacancy in Europe. Paris has been the capital of South America. Paris has gained an enormous amount of wealth, prestige and everything else from the fact that tourists from every one of the Spanish American countries wanted to go there for all sorts of cultural and recreational purposes. I believe that we should make London the successor to Paris in that particular respect. We have one of the most interesting countries that mediaeval Europe has handed down to the present time, and I welcome the Bill because, although it is only a small beginning, it will, I hope, make it possible to hand on to generations yet to be finer cities, better preserved ancient monuments and, in fact, a better England.
I have neither the erudition of certain hon. Members nor the disrespect for you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to wander into such wide fields as have been covered in this Debate. We have heard much about the community in which the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) would like to live—a planless society of apes, uneducated, wandering about with no cohesion, but, frankly, I am more interested in the Bill before the House to-day, and I would like to discuss one or two points in connection with it. I would say, in contradistinction to what many others have said, that what we need is not so much knowledge—there is plenty in this House—as power. What we want is power to act. I have served with my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Holborn (Sir R. Tasker) on the town planning committee which is responsible for the town planning of at least the interior of London. I found that it was impossible to plan adequately because we did not have sufficient powers to act.
I will give one example. It has been practically impossible in the past to control adequately factory development throughout London or, indeed, in any other part of the country. We have two appalling examples of the lack of this power—one in London itself and the other in Oxford. There is a well-known gentleman, a Member of another place, who has developed his factory with such success that not only has he secured a peerage but he has also ruined a very beautiful town. It is most unfortunate that any industry should be allowed to develop in a town of great beauty in such a way that it ruins that town. The Oxford Regional Preservation Trust came too late to save the City of Oxford. The same thing has happened in London. We have the Green Belt scheme of the London County Council. As a result of this scheme some 100,000 acres were saved, but saved after it was virtually too late, after London had already a population of some 7,000,000 to 8,000,000. I hope this Bill will eventually give us sufficient power to be able to prevent such things as happened in Oxford and London from happening in other parts of the country.
Another thing that we want to control is the development of building in the countryside. To-day Hitler is doing his utmost to destroy our towns, but whatever he can do and however far he has gone to destroy their beauty, he cannot destroy the beauty of our countryside. Only we can do that, and if such a Bill as this does not go through, we shall do as much to destroy our countryside as Hitler has done to destroy our towns. I think it is of the utmost importance that power should be taken to enable some central authority to control building in our country districts. Until this is done we shall never be certain from one day to another that what are called our "beauty spots"—although I think the phrase "beauty spots" is odious—will be preserved for ever from the speculative builder and the Peacehavenite who is out as soon as he possibly can to ruin them.
I would pass to another aspect of prevention which I think this Bill can deal with, and that is the prevention of the destruction of certain buildings of historical and architectural importance. We have heard much from the hon. Member for Bilston (Mr. Hannah) about ancient monuments. I would suggest that until some authority has power to prevent the destruction of buildings without paying compensation to the owner, it is almost impossible for these buildings to be preserved. What is the situation to-day? If the town planning authority wishes to prevent the destruction of a building, it can be done only if compensation is paid, and the owner comes forward and virtually demands blackmail. He says, "I have a very beautiful building, and unless you pay me compensation, unless you pay me cash down, I will destroy that building." It is impossible to prevent him from doing so. I submit that some power must be given to the Minister under this Bill to prevent the destruction of those buildings, and unless it is given, no planning of this country will enable those buildings to survive. I do not believe anybody should be paid compensation for not committing a crime, and it is a crime to destroy a building of great beauty.
I pass to another point connected with this, and indirectly following from it, that is, the power of the Ministry to take over buildings and use them, or hand them over to other Departments to use. At the present time, the Office of Works have power to take over a building when it is already a ruin. I do not feel that it is a satisfactory situation that we should have to wait for our great buildings to be ruined before they may be taken over. I hope that power may be given to the Minister—and that he will use that power—to take over such buildings as cannot be used any more by private enterprise, or cannot be used by their owners, and which are of sufficient beauty, so that the Ministry may keep them and preserve them.
A very great problem that will arise after the war will be the use of large country houses. There are scattered up and down the countryside large and very beautiful houses whose owners will be unable to live in them, in many case, after the war. Are we to wait until those houses fall into decay before the Minister may take them over? I hope the Minister will develop plans, and will explain to us what those plans are, for taking over such of those houses as are considered to be of architectural and historical importance, and that he will explain to us that he is preparing plans to put them to the many uses to which they could be put, as, for instance, children's holiday camps, rest homes, and a thousand other uses. We have had an example of the success of this policy in Russia. The Russian Government have taken over countless houses, in the Crimea and elsewhere, that were previously used by the aristocracy as their playgrounds and which have now been made into convalescent homes, workers' hostels, and many other things. If the Russian Government could do this, and do it with great success, what is there to prevent our own Government from doing it? I hope they will do so.
The last two days have seen the destruction of two of our most beautiful towns. They have seen the destruction of Bath, and the partial, and I fear, very great, destruction in Norwich. [An HON. MEMBER: "And in York."] The Germans have announced that they intend, as they rather quaintly put it, to destroy every building marked with three stars in Baedeker. If they are successful in this, we shall find that there will be comparatively few buildings of architectural importance left after the war. Are we going to see that at least those few buildings are preserved? If we do so, we shall earn the gratitude of posterity; if we do not do so, it may be said of us that Hitler destroyed much but that after the war, simply through lack of initiative, through failure to take the necessary power, we destroyed even more of the beauty of our towns and countryside.
I think the House will agree that we have had to-day a most interesting discussion. We have had this question canvassed from both sides. We have heard those who hope and believe that planning will do everything, and we have heard those who are quite confident that planning can bring us nothing but disaster. I deprecate both points of view. I entirely disagree with the view that because we make mistakes, we should therefore not try to plan our economy after this war. But we must not disregard all the dangers and pitfalls. We must not become mere idealists. We must try to be eminently practical in the steps we take. The hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), who made a delightfully amusing speech, defined planners as being superior persons who know what is good for people better than do the people themselves. I should like to ask him to apply his own test to the East End of London, for example. Did the people who live in that area decide that they should have to live in those conditions? Would they prefer to have open spaces near them? Or consider colliery villages. Is it a fair test to say that people in colliery villages know what is best for them and desire to have the sort of conditions they have? It seems to me to be wholly untrue.
The real test is who you can judge by. Surely, although the hon. Member is right in saying that the question of art and an appreciation of art must be relative and vary from age to age, there are certain things which are, at any rate, less relative—for instance, the health of the people. Should we not try deliberately so to plan as to give the children of the new generation a better chance than the children of the old generation? Should we not try to bring them up more healthy in mind, body, and spirit than the children of the past? Have we learned nothing from this war? Have not all of us discovered the existence of things which we hope and believe we may put right in the future? But when I have said this, I fully realise that planning, if it is carried out from a merely idealistic point of view, without regard to practical considerations, may do more harm than good. I do not suppose anybody would really be foolish enough to try and remove the collieries from the coalfields or remove the ports from the coast. Those illustrations have been given, but they are mere illustrations showing that unless one plans wisely, one may do considerable harm. Therefore, I hope to hitch my wagon to a star in this matter, but I do not propose to disregard the ruts which lie in the road ahead which I have to travel.
This Bill is really, I readily concede, a very small step. What we have to consider is whether it is a step in the right direction. The part of this Bill with which I am concerned is merely that part which transfers from the Minister of Health to the Minister of Works and Buildings, as he is to-day, the planning powers which, broadly speaking, derive from the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932. Let me remind the House, very briefly, what those powers are. It has all been said in previous speeches. My hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) put it very plainly in his forceful speech. The essence of those powers is this. First of all, they are local powers. In many cases the planning authority is, of course, the county council, and, as he rightly said, it has to plan from its own point of view. It is very largely handicapped by financial considerations. It cannot disregard its duty to its ratepayers. It has to avoid the loss of rateable value, and, if possible, bring into its area more rateable value. It cannot disregard the fact that it has to avoid paying uncommon sums in compensation. Therefore, local authorities have had to plan so as not to involve themselves in the risk of that happening, and they have had, in practice, to zone areas at so many houses to an acre, the number of houses frequently being determined to avoid the risk of having to pay compensation.
The planning powers do not, speaking by and large, apply to statutory companies, and land and property of Government Departments. It is natural enough, when these planning powers are purely local, that statutory authorities and Government Departments should perhaps object to having their rights subjected to the wishes of some district council. That is the position. Having said that, I think it is only fair to say, again speaking on the whole, that local authorities have made very considerable use of these planning powers. Thanks to them, we have been able to secure a standard of building which we certainly should not have secured without them. Thanks to them, we have acquired open spaces which equally we should not have had. When we look around some of our great cities and see some of the work Hitler has done by bombing, many of us hope that at any rate a large part of those spaces will be used in future as open spaces.
To this we have how to add a new conception. This is what I want the House to realise: To planning, which in its essence was purely local, we are now adding a new conception from the national point of view. We are to try and plan nationally. I have been giving a good deal of time to this problem, and I am fully conscious of its difficulties. I am fully alive to the fact that anybody, even the right hon. Gentleman opposite, who has had great experience of the matter, would find that this problem taxed every bit of his ability and experience. We have to plan, as even the hon. Member for Mossley would agree if he really thought about the matter seriously. We may have to consider strategical considerations. Who is to say that we shall not? We shall certainly have to consider health considerations, and we shall have to consider agricultural considerations.
I quite agree that we must not allow our best agricultural land to be used for towns, as was done in one particular case after the last war. We must surely consider such questions as green belts and the preservation of the coast line. I give the illustration of the Lake District. Is there anyone who really doubts that a district such as that ought not to be a national park, combined with some scheme of youth hostels to give our young people a chance to roam about and get their exercise under those sort of conditions? Has that not some spiritual value? The hon. Member who spoke last referred in a most interesting speech to large country houses which under present conditions will probably not be used for the purposes for which they were built. A man will not be able to afford to live in such a house. I quite agree with the hon. Member. What an opportunity to try and use these houses for some such purpose as he indicated, be it as convalescent homes, nursery schools or hostels.
I must point out to the House that the national consideration may involve a clash between national interests and local interests. We have, for instance, a considerable number of up-to-date factories in the country. It may be that the new factories will be the nucleus around which new communities may form in country surroundings. It may mean that in some towns we shall not desire to rebuild the factories which have been knocked down. It is possible—I am not expressing any opinion—that future extension of factories in London may be thought undesirable, and that we have too large a population in the South. You must have, if you are going to have an adequate system of national planning, some body which can give a directive to local authorities, which must, of course, remain the local planning authorities. Local authorities must plan their localities in the light of a directive based on national considerations. That is the new conception. It was for that reason that there had to be grafted on to what up to now had been a purely local planning policy the new scheme outlined by my right hon. Friend on nth February.
May I say to him—the House heard his speech—that I conceive my position to be exactly as he stated. He used the expression that the Minister of Works and Buildings was to be my handmaiden. I hardly like to describe the Noble Lord as my handmaiden, and I do not know whether he would accept the position, but, if my right hon. Friend meant, as he did mean, that the central directive must come from that Committee of Ministers over which I preside, and must go from that Committee of Ministers to the Minister of Works and Buildings, that is exactly my conception of the position. There will be so many Departments concerned with the use of land, all of whom, I think, should be represented on that Committee, that I hope we shall be able, if matters have not been resolved below, to resolve conflicts which may arise with regard to the usage of land for this purpose or that. Of course, it remains true that, if any Minister feels strongly on a matter, it must be resolved at the very highest quarter of all, and that is the War Cabinet. By give and take and by good will I trust we shall be able in many of these cases to resolve conflicts, if conflicts arise, and I trust that we shall be able to hammer out an agreed policy on what national directive we ought to give.
With regard to the location of industry, let me say it is quite obvious that you cannot consider this in the abstract. You must know what industry you are going to deal with. You must know what the circumstances are which exist at the end of the war in relation to that industry. It seems to me that we must try to get ready a machine so that, when the moment arrives when we are able to weigh those things which are now imponderable, we shall be able to get our machine to work to get results; and, in the illustration that I have given, if questions arise with regard to a particular industry, it is, of course, obvious that one would have to get into consultation the leaders of the industry on both sides to find out what their wishes are and how we could help them and to remember that what matters is, first of all, the welfare of the people engaged in the industry, but, secondly, the economic planning of the industry so that it shall be able to stand and deliver the goods in the most favourable possible conditions.
This Bill is merely a first step. It is obvious that the planning powers need to be reviewed, revised, and enlarged drastically in many respects. But it seems to us that it is very unwise to attempt any final solution of that sort unless and until we have the reports of the Scott and Uthwatt Committees. We hope to receive them in the not far distant future. This Debate has been of great interest to the House and has been of great use to me, because I am sometimes appalled at the difficulty of this task. I am conscious that no one has ever had a more difficult task in which to play a part. I am very fortunate in that I find the Minister of Works and Planning—whether I am his handmaiden or he is mine I do not know—very receptive and willing to discuss matters and to help in arriving at the best solution that we can. We thought it right to take this first step, even though it is a very small one, because it clearly indicates that we hold to our policy of constituting a Minister in charge of planning. By that policy we stand. We think that planning is vitally important for the country and that there must be some Minister in charge of it. We are seeking by the Bill to transfer to him the existing powers under the Town and Country Planning Act. We realise that we shall have to augment and alter those powers in many ways, and I thank the House for the suggestions which have been made in all quarters, which will assist me in revising, or helping to revise, those powers.
The Amendment for the rejection of the Bill is based on rather an odd ground. The hon. Member for Holborn, if I understood him aright, said he objected to the Bill because the Treasury should not exercise control over money. But the Treasury does exercise control over money, and, if it did not, we should be in a much worse state than we are to-day, and, although we sometimes feel in regard to our own Department that the Treasury has exercised that control a little too harshly, on the whole I think it a very good thing that it does exercise control over money and does not give Ministers a free hand to do exactly what they like. Whatever else may be said about the Bill, I am confident that on that ground the House will not refuse to accept it.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House for the next Sitting Day.—[ Major Sir James Edmondson .]
Minister of Works and Planning [Money]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order 69.
[Colonel CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]
Resolved,
"That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision in connection with the appointment of a Minister of Works and Planning, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—
Resolution to be reported upon the next Sitting Day.
Armed Forces (Pensions and Grants)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Sir J. Edmondson .]
I am very pleased with this opportunity of raising one or two problems with the Minister of Pensions, and I am not doing it in an unfriendly spirit. I think the problems that I shall raise belong to the House of Commons as a whole more than to the Minister of Pensions. Already during this war men have been wounded and discharged from the Forces, and it naturally falls to the Minister of Pensions to determine whether they are entitled to any allowances. On 22nd January I raised a special case with the Minister from my own constituency. A man was passed A.1 into the Forces. As far as is known he had lived a normal life before he joined up. He was sent to France and, I understand, went through all that happened there, was then brought home and sent to a military mental hospital, where he remained for six weeks. He was then taken home by escort and remained there for a fortnight. After that he was certified permanently as a lunatic, and is now in the Whittingham Asylum in Lancashire. He has a wife and five children under 10 years of age. When a claim was made for a pension or allowance for his wife and children it was refused.
I am not complaining about the right hon. Gentleman as an individual, because he works, I understand, on a set of principles which has always applied to the Ministry of Pensions. I quarrel with the attitude of the Ministry of Pensions as a Department and on the way it arrives at decisions. The Ministry had its own doctors investigating this case. The Ministry pays its own doctors for advice on all these cases, and if one of them will not make a positive declaration that this man's insanity was caused by his service in the Forces, or was aggravated by it, the right hon. Gentleman feels safe in deciding that he will not pay a pension. I want to challenge the title of the Ministry to determine a man's right to a pension on medical evidence alone. I speak with a little knowledge and some hon. Members behind me have as much as, if not more than, I have on this point. When a workman meets with an accident or suffers from an industrial disease the Trade Union takes the case to court. It is not sufficient for the court to hear medical evidence on one side. The trade union will pay a doctor and he will go into the witness box and give all the evidence available to him as a medical man in favour of the man's claim for compensation. The insurance company, represented by the employer, will also have a doctor in the court, and the two doctors will contradict each other in almost every case. A body of laymen, or a layman, will then decide the claim on two contradictory pieces of medical evidence.
My point against the Ministry is that it relies exclusively on what a doctor says to the Minister and that the doctor is paid by the Minister for giving that evidence. I want to press that point upon the right hon. Gentleman. I do not know very much about the Forces, but I am moved by humanitarian considerations whether a man is in the Army or anywhere else. This man is now in an asylum, and his wife and five children under 10 are on Poor Law relief. Nothing that the Ministry of Pensions can say will avail to convince the people around them that the Ministry has not been unfair to this man's family. You can have all the medical evidence from Harley Street and from the Ministry of Pensions, but the mere fact that this man is insane, has served in the Forces and his wife and children are on Poor Law relief affects adversely the whole of the community where the family lives.
I have another case outside my division of a member of my own approved society. He was in the Navy and was on shore duty in the South-West when a high-explosive dropped near him. He was taken to hospital, where he suffered from a violent fit. According to the records of the society, of which he has been a member since he became insurable, he was never ill before. From the time he suffered that fit, however, he was declared by medical evidence to be an epileptic. He went home and claimed a pension from the Ministry, but did not get anything. Incidentally, all these cases in which the Minister declines a pension and the men are certified as incapable of work, fall on the funds of approved societies. They must get money from somewhere. This case is aggravated by the fact that nobody will employ an epileptic. I have another case from my Division, and I do not blame the right hon. Gentleman for what has happened here. The young man in question was only a short time in the Army—about 57 days. When he came out of the Army, his parents claimed a pension, and it was turned down on the usual lines of the Ministry. The local authority responsible for his maintenance in the asylum, however, have asked the parents to contribute to his maintenance. The technicalities employed by the Ministry of Pensions are such that in many cases you cannot convince the average man that the State is doing the right thing in treating disabled soldiers in that fashion.
I was dealing with many of these problems until a fortnight ago, when I retired from my post, and I know them almost as intimately as the right hon. Gentleman. I know a society from which 16,000 young men have been taken into the Forces. Already about 800 have been discharged on medical grounds. Of these, 142 passed A1 on embodiment, but for various reasons or none at all, they have not been granted any allowance from the Ministry. Of that number, 22 were mental and nervous cases, five are in mental hospitals, and several are suffering from epilepsy. According to the society's records they never ailed until they were enrolled into the Forces. Once again, I say I am not blaming the Minister of Pensions, because Parliament is responsible for the Royal Warrant. The application of the Warrant and its administration rests, however, with the Ministry of Pensions. The present Minister and his deputy do administer the Warrant as generously, probably, as they are entitled to under its terms, and once again I make no complaint against the right hon. Gentleman as an individual.
Let me pass to something worse than that. The fault does not lie exclusively with the Ministry of Pensions, and I regret very much that during this war it has to deal with the consequences of the sheer inefficiency of some of the medical boards which pass men into the Forces. We pay doctors to pass them into the Forces and pay other doctors for sending out of the Forces those who ought never to have been taken in. Here is a case in point. A young man of 22 or 23 years of age engaged on work of national importance lost his eye. He was still attending hospital for his eye trouble, because the injury was still running, when, lo and behold, a medical board passed him into the Army. He was in a military hospital with this eye trouble for five months, and then he was discharged from the Army. I am not saying that the right hon. Gentleman should be asked to pay him a pension. All I am saying is that this case—and I am sure other hon. Members have parallel cases in their own divisions—shows that some medical boards are passing into the Forces men who, as they ought to know, will never make efficient soldiers physically.
I wish to add something else. I happen to be the honorary chairman of the South-East Lancashire Mental Welfare Association. I was astonished to be told some time ago by the chief official that medical boards were passing registered mental deficients into the Forces. I communicated with the chiefs of the Ministry of Labour and National Service and they too were astonished to find that it was so. Once we are at war, the whole machinery of the State begins to work and millions of human beings are just cogs in the machine, and things like this can happen. I have got several men out of the Forces because they were registered mental deficients. In the end, this Association for Mental Welfare gives a note to the young man to take to the medical board to say that the association is interested in his case. Then, automatically, he is turned down on that fact alone. Unfortunately, all registered mental deficients are not covered by welfare associations; and during this war, and after it ends, I am sure that the Minister of Pensions will have to deal with claims that should never have arisen because certain types should never have been sent into the Forces. I am sorry the Minister of Labour is not present to hear what I have to say on that score.
Finally, I want to say something about the right hon. Gentleman's reply on Tribunals the other day. I pressed him very hard, and I think I convinced him a little. Although we are political opponents, we are old friends. When he sat on this side of the House he behaved very differently. I never heard such a critic in my 21 years' experience. If there was a Labour Administration in office, he did not give them a moment's peace. He would be very much offended if I treated him to-day as he used to treat us, and so I shall keep to the Golden Rule. I pressed the right hon. Gentleman, and I think I convinced him, in part, that I was right in my contention, that medical opinion should not be the final factor in a claim for a pension. There ought to be a tribunal. There was such a tribunal during the last war. The late Mr. Bellamy, who was Member for Ashton-under-Lyne, was chairman. It is a good thing in such cases to have a layman on such a tribunal, and especially a man who has been in the Forces himself. In his reply the other day the right hon. Gentleman came a little way towards my point of view. He said he was going to set up such a tribunal, but not until the end of the war. I do not know how long the war will last. It may last so long that the right hon. Gentleman will not be there. None of us may be here at the end. I would press upon him to look again at this problem now, because, if he waits till the end of the war, he will, as he knows better than I, have thousands of cases to deal with; and I should not like to see him doing nothing except slitting open envelopes when the war is ended. I hope that I am not being unreasonable in the case I am putting to the right hon. Gentleman. I plead with him that he may be good enough to look once again at the question of setting up a lay tribunal to determine these claims, and I would point out insistently that, in whatever he does, he must not decide these cases exclusively on medical evidence.
I do not wish to say a single word to spoil the eminently reasonable atmosphere which my hon. Friend has created, but the fact must not be lost sight of that very considerable bitterness is being created in working-class homes up and down the country by these preventible causes. My hon. Friend said that the Royal Warrant was to blame and that therefore he did not blame the Minister or the Ministry, but I do not altogether agree with that view. As far as I know, there is nothing in the Royal Warrant to prevent the Ministry from setting up tribunals now. If tribunals were set up now, one cause of the bitterness and suspicion that exist would be removed.
People are saying that a medical board examining a recruit is interested only in getting him into the Forces by any reasonable means it can use, and therefore, if there is any doubt about a man's medical condition, the Army gets the benefit of it. It is said that the medical board come to the conclusion that any weakness will soon be brought out by the exigencies of military service, that the man in question will then be released and that they are prepared, therefore, to take a risk—and they take it. The time comes when another medical board examines the man and says that he is of no further use and had better go back to civil life. Then another medical authority at a later stage—I do not know whether it is even a board, or merely some medical gentleman attached to the Ministry—comes into action. The interest is then the other way round. The medical officers of the Ministry examine the man's medical history before enlistment. I do not mean to say that they are commercially minded about it, but I am trying to look at the circumstances. If they can discover some possible origin in the man's medical history before enlistment, of the trouble which later developed, they then say, "His condition has not been caused and has not been aggravated by war service; therefore he is not entitled to anything."
It seems to many people that two things are wrong there. One is that if the State takes the responsibility of saying, "We have examined this man carefully and have come to the conclusion that he is in every way fit for military service—whatever representation he or his medical advisers may have made; the responsibility is ours; we have examined him and are satisfied, and we are going to make him subject to the Military Service Act and take him in," and if the State turns out to be wrong, then the State ought to be prepared still to take the responsibility. The State ought not to claim to be right both ways. If a man was fit for military service on the day he was embodied, and is not fit for military service at some later date, there is a strong inference that the change in his condition has been caused or aggravated by his service. That ought to entitle him to a pension unless and until the contrary is proved. That is how the courts would administer a similar question under the Workmen s Compensation Act.
It is not only a question of the benefit of the doubt. It goes beyond that. If a workman goes to a county court and says, "On 1st January I was fit, on 8th January I had an accident, and on all material dates subsequent to that I have been unfit," and calls some medical evidence to establish that contention, then the court is entitled, and it is the duty of the court, to draw the inference that the condition which ultimately prevents him from working is attributable to the accident. In the military case, the military service corresponds to the accident. At the beginning of it he is fit, at the end of it he is unfit, and the State in those circumstances ought to say, "The responsibility is ours, and we are not going to haggle about it. We are not going to put upon the shoulders of a man in this condition "—he may be in an asylum—" the onus of establishing to our satisfaction that his condition was caused or aggravated by his military service." I think it is there that the Ministry goes wrong. They argue that the Royal Warrant says that the pension is to be payable only if it is proved that the incapacity was caused or aggravated by war service, and then they expect the man to discharge the onus of proving that it was so caused. In 99 cases out of 100, even where it is true, even where it is establishable by evidence, the man himself is not in a position to establish it.
The other thing that is wrong, and that makes these matters cause more bitterness than they need, is the insistence on the part of the Ministry that they are to be judge and witness in their own cause. They do not communicate their evidence to the man; they do not hear the man's own medical evidence when he has any. There is no hearing at all. There is no process whereby the medical evidence may be set one side against the other and tested by cross-examination, nor is there any tribunal, even in the Ministry, which attempts to weigh the medical evidence and draw the inferences as a man trained in the weighing of evidence would draw them. What really prevents the Ministry from setting up these tribunals now? I understand it was said in answer to a Question the other day that there are not enough doctors. But you do not need doctors in the tribunals. If you say that there is not enough medical evidence, then you are not entitled to refuse the benefit at all, or you must leave all the cases in abeyance until you have sufficient medical evidence to determine whether a case is made out or not. If you have the medical evidence—and in its absence I do not know how you can reach decisions at all—that medical evidence is capable of being placed before a non-medical tribunal.
It would be perfectly easy to get tribunals of that kind. I am certain that, over-worked as they all are, county court judges would be very ready to determine these cases as they determine the almost precisely analogous cases under the Work men's Compensation Act, and I know of no better tribunal. I do not know why the Ministry should continue, I think obstinately and unreasonably, to attract to itself all this public opposition, with all that it entails in morale, rather than boldly say, now when the question arises and when the man's need arises, "Here is a question in which the facts are in dispute and we are prepared to put these facts before a tribunal "—
It being the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put :
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Adamson ]
They should say "We are prepared to put all the evidence at our disposal before an independent tribunal, to invite that tribunal to give the benefit of the doubt, where there is a doubt, to the man, and to abide by the result." I do not know how long the war will last. No one does; I hope it may be short, but it has already been going on for nearly three years and no man can regard it as certain or reasonably certain that it may not last another three. If you are to have all these disputed cases accumulating until after the war, how will you ever get them straight? What will happen to your evidence in the meantime? What will happen to the man's capacity for collecting his evidence and presenting it? You will have an enormous accumulation of cases and then they will have to be dealt with quickly and when you have to determine justice quickly you do it very badly. There is no reason why these cases should not be dealt with now, and I ask the Minister to reconsider the matter fundamentally, to approach it in a new spirit and deal now with this question—a very minor question, in relation to the general questions of the war and the future, but a very important question as it affects the lives of the men themselves and their dependants.
I wish to appeal to the Minister of Pensions to give careful and sympathetic consideration to the plea put forward by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies). It is, surely, a very reasonable request. My contention is that if a man is passed as fit for service he should become the responsibility of the Government. It is not good enough to declare that subsequent incapacity is not caused- by war service. I wish to deal with only three cases out of the many brought to my notice in my own constituency. The first is that of a sailor, certified by the Navy doctor as suffering from duodenal ulcers and invalided out without a pension. He went into a local hospital to be operated on, as he thought, for duodenal ulcers. When the operation took place there was no trace of ulcers but he had to be operated on for appendicitis. I appealed to the Admiralty in that case because the Navy doctor had made a mistake. That is a case of a man invalided out with no pension and no compensation.
The second case is that of a soldier who, after fighting at Dunkirk, was sent to hospital suffering from pleurisy. The doctor at the base, looked at him and asked what was wrong. When he said "Pleurisy" the doctor replied "Nonsense" and put on his card "chronic bronchitis." He was invalided out, stated to be suffering from chronic bronchitis. But he had been working in a factory for over nine years and had never lost a day's work. I contend that in a case like that, that where the man had been fighting at Dunkirk, he should receive a pension or some form of compensation. The third case is that of a member of my own union. He is a soldier who after a blitz suffered from loss of memory and was subsequently sent to a mental hospital. Again, no compensation and no pension. Surely it is reasonable to ask that in all such cases there should be a tribunal and that a man should not be "downed" for life simply on the word of the Ministry's doctor?
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) for raising these subjects, although we have not much time to deal with such difficult and very serious questions. I thank other hon. Members also for the suggestions they have made. I will endeavour to give reasoned replies to their points. I fully realise that every Member is keenly interested in the welfare of men who are serving, and of men who have served and have had to be discharged from the Army for some reason or other. We all know that if a man is disabled and cannot follow any occupation, he has to be kept by somebody, either by the State, through the Ministry of Pensions, or by the ratepayers, through the public assistance committees.
Or by his mother and father.
I hope that we shall do nothing in this matter, at any rate, to take away the pride of a family in looking after a member of that family—without, of course, taking away any rights people may have to be looked after by the State. Do not let us deprecate good feeling between members of a family.
Do not make us laugh.
I am sure hon. Members will give me a chance to make my speech. I did not interrupt them. This is too serious a subject for irrelevant interruptions. I am very much concerned about it, because these matters exercise me, in my constituency, day in and day out. It is our endeavour, as far as possible, within the limits, as has been said, of the powers conferred upon us by Act of Parliament, to administer all these matters as sympathetically as we can. The hon. Member for Westhoughton raised three specific cases. He and I have discussed all three. He has had the privilege of seeing the papers in connection with those cases. I think we can settle all of them without having to disclose all that one would disclose in a reply across the Floor of the House.
I would like to deal with the general aspect of the subject. First, there is the general question of the examination of recruits. From the beginning, we have had a good deal of trouble over this matter. In the first place, men were called back to the Army from the Reserve; and, in the rush of the early days, were not given a medical examination, so there is no question of establishing exactly what was their physical condition when they rejoined. The Territorial Army was embodied when the war broke out, and there was no proper medical examination in the first instance; but later that matter was dealt with, and I am glad to say that we have not had anything like the trouble some cases to deal with from the Territorial Army that we had in the early stages of the war. It is a fact that men were passed into the Army in Category A. 1, who in some cases were only in a few days, and in others only a few weeks, when they were discovered to be suffering from complaints which did not render them unfit for ordinary civilian occupations, but did render them unfit for Army service. The Army authorities, wisely, I think, discharged them On the other hand, men were taken in, during the early stages as A. 1 who were afterwards discovered not to be fit for military service, and it should be said that their service had something to do with aggravating, at any rate, the constitutional diseases from which they were suffering.
Very early, when I discovered the difficulties that were arising in these cases, I called the attention of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service—who, of course, is responsible in the first place for the recruits being passed through into the Service—to the matter. These medical boards, of course, are my right hon. Friend's boards. He responded to my appeal, and took drastic action at once. I submit that he took the right action, because since we have had this better examination of recruits we have not had anything near so many cases to deal with, although we are bound to have one or two, even now. I want to acknowledge gladly the co-operation which my right hon. Friend has afforded me and the great improvement that has come about since we had those consultations.
But you are bound to get cases, of men with certain constitutional disease which do not manifest themselves at the time of the examination, and which no clinical examination could discover. I will mention one in particular which is giving me difficulty, and which all medical opinion throughout the country says cannot be ascribed to any service. I refer to cases of cancer. These occur in the civilian population among young people and in the Services, too, and there is no medical man who will say that they can be ascribed to any military service. There are other diseases, as well, but the position is that we have tightened up the medical examination and as a result of the better system I do not think we shall have the difficulties in the future that we have had in the past.
I come to the question of what happens to these men and what is done for them, and here I am certain that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) will cast his mind back to an announcement which I made in this House last July. Having carefully considered the whole of this difficult subject I came to the conclusion that, if mistakes had been made by the medical board responsible to a Department of this Government, then the Government must, as far as it could be laid as a charge against them that some negligence had taken place, face up to the fact and pay. I succeeded in getting the approval of the Government to the proposal which I put forward to this House and which was received, I am glad to say, by most hon. Members with some satisfaction. Where a man had been passed as AI in to the Army—which we took to mean that the medical board were satisfied that he was indeed a fit man—and he was afterwards discharged because of some constitutional disease, if there was any degree of aggravation at all, we accepted it as a material aggravation, and thus brought it within the provisions of the Royal Warrant, There is no dispute if it is a wound or the result of an accident; the cases in dispute are always those in which a constitutional disease has flared up during the man's service.
And you turned them all down.
The hon. Gentleman still keeps on chattering and interrupting. I appealed to him once and I appeal to him again. I am coming to that point. What was the result of that new provision? We reviewed all cases to which our attention was called from the very beginning of the war. When I say that we were able to accept over 70 per cent. of the cases for pension purposes I think it will be regarded as a complete reply to the statement that we turn them all down. We do nothing of the kind. It has been a very useful measure and one with which I am very pleased to have been associated, and I am applying it from time to time.
You turned down all my cases.
Many hon. Members of this House who have sent cases to me will be able to confirm that I have been able to write to them saying that under the new provision I was glad to be able to make an award to their constituents.
I think most Members will agree that the announcement the Minister made last July gave very great satisfaction and that in a large number of cases since then his instructions have been put into operation. But he qualified it by saying "where any degree of aggravation can be proved." It is there that the hardship arises, because in the great majority of cases a man is called upon to prove positively that there was aggravation and he cannot do it. When he cannot do it, he loses a pension.
I am sorry to disillusion the hon. Member but it is not for every man to prove that that is so. I want that to be thoroughly understood. We do not proceed in the way outlined by the hon. Member in his speech. When a case is brought to my Department it is dealt with by expert laymen and not by medical men, as some who have suggested that it is all a question of medical evidence, seem to think. These laymen go thoroughly into the case and they are bound to seek the advice of the medical branch of my Ministry because the majority of these cases hang entirely on the medical opinion. That is not to say that we try in any way to rob a man of his rights. I can assure hon. Members that the doctors in my Department work faithfully under my instructions which are that they must look into a case with a view to giving a pension and not refusing it. Parliament has laid it down—and I think wisely so—that the Minister himself cannot award a pension unless he has a certificate from a medical man to say that the applicant is suffering from a certain disease caused, or aggravated by, war service. You cannot get beyond that, otherwise you would be on dangerous ground. If the medical men reject a man's case, he has the right of appeal to me which, in many cases, he exercises through his Member of Parliament.
You turn them all down.
This House of Commons is the best court of appeal in the world. These cases are brought to my notice, and I go into them thoroughly. I spend a good deal of time going into them because I know my responsibility. It is a great responsibility. If a case presents unusual features, I invite hon. Members into consultation, and may I repeat now that I am always willing to see a Member, either in the House of Commons or in my office, where we can have all the papers and go through the case?
You have turned them all down.
In the majority of cases where consultations took place hon. Members went away perfectly satisfied. [An HON. MEMBER: "NO."] Well, I am only relating my own experiences.
The Minister has sitting next to him the Parliamentary Secretary, with whom I have had correspondence for many months about a particular case. I am not complaining of the sympathetic way in which I was received. It would not be right to canvass anybody's personal opinion. I only know that the case is one to which the considerations which we have been discussing to-day would apply to the letter. It is a case which I am absolutely certain no impartial tribunal would have any difficulty about at all, but I cannot get a pension.
I am glad the hon. Member said that, for it shows what every man thinks about his own case. I am also glad he said it, because it shows he is a strong advocate on behalf of a constituent.
You have turned them all down.
I appeal to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Is this in accordance with Parliamentary usage and custom?
Order.
I think we have, at any rate, some fair-minded Members of the House who will bear me out in what I say. If a man submits a certificate from his own private doctor or a panel doctor which gives a directly different opinion from that of our doctors, I immediately take the case out of the hands of both of them and pass it on, not to someone employed by my Ministry, but to the nominee of the president of the Royal College of Surgeons or Physicians, that is, to whichever the case is applicable. These men are always specialists in their own particular line, and surely, they are the right and proper people to form an opinion on these matters. To my mind, that is a safeguard. I assure hon. Members that many of their decisions have been in favour of the men's doctors; some of them have been in favour of the Ministry's doctors; but in any case, it is an impartial opinion and as fair as it is possible to get.
No, it is not.
The case is presented by one side.
No, it is not. I have heard the hon. Member for Rochdale (Dr. Morgan) before on this question, and I have invited him to assist me in this matter, but I have not received that assistance yet.
Now that the Minister has mentioned that matter—
I have not much time—[ Interruption .]
Order.' If the Minister does not give way, the hon. Member may not speak.
I have a case to state. If hon. Members do not want to hear it, I cannot help that. The real point at issue, as far as this Debate is concerned, is the question of tribunals. If there had been tribunals, we should not have had this Debate, and we should not have had hon. Members disputing whether their doctors or our doctors were better. Let me repeat that, as far as I am concerned, I would welcome tribunals. Should I not be a foolish man if I did not? As Minister of Pensions, I have to deal with these cases and to take the responsibility, and I do not shirk that; but if I could say to every hon. Member who wrote to me, "This is a case about which there is a dispute; so let it go to a tribunal," it would save me a great deal of correspondence and hon. Members a great deal of correspondence and trouble. But the position is this. With all due deference to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne, I submit that medical evidence plays a very big part in all these cases.
Of course, it does.
Therefore, it is necessary, in the first place, that the case for the Ministry should be stated clearly by an expert medical man. Secondly, for the sake and benefit of the appellant, he ought to have the benefit of expert medical opinion on his side.
But if he had to choose between that and the tribunal, he would prefer the tribunal.
After he has got his medical evidence, it is laid down by Parliament that, as far as tribunals are concerned, one medical man must sit thereon. We had these tribunals after the last war—and not during the last war, as one hon. Member has stated—because the same difficulty arose then as has arisen now. I have searched far and wide, I have inquired from all the other Government Departments, including the Ministry of Health and the Committee that was presided over by the senior Member for Norwich (Mr. Shakespeare) and in every case I have been told that doctors were not available. That is the only reason the tribunals had not been set up. I pledge my word that, as soon as is practicable, these tribunals will be set up. In the meantime, no one is losing his case because the tribunals are not in existence. The various improvements that I have been able to make from time to time in the provisions of the Royal Warrant, with the consent of the House—including that very important point about the man being taken in A.1 and afterwards, if there is an aggravation, counting it as material—have all been helpful to the men themselves, and as to those whose cases come outside those provisions, they will have the opportunity, as soon as the tribunals can be set up, of putting their cases forward and having them dealt with, as has been stated.
It has been said that there are plenty of medical men available. The fact is that there are insufficient medical men for the Forces, and the age of reservation for doctors and dentists has had to be raised. We had a Debate some months ago on this subject when the position was not so acute as it is to-day. That Debate had wide publicity in the Press, and I received two letters from medical men offering their services. One came from a man who was over 70 years of age, who had been retired from his practice for more than ten years. The other doctor said quite frankly that he was in no physical condition to continue his private practice, but that he thought he could manage this work. The number of doctors I require is fairly large, and I shall set up the tribunals as soon as it is practical. I make that definite pledge again to-day.
The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne made a suggestion which I have not heard made before. He referred to the Workmen's Compensation Act and how cases under that Act were dealt with by a judge of the county court, and he pointed out that no medical man was involved.
I meant that they were not involved as members of a tribunal.
Is it not usual for a medical to appear as an adviser?
Sometimes.
But in other cases medical evidence must be submitted from both sides. It is a new suggestion, and I am quite prepared to consider it. When it was mentioned I spoke to the Leader of the House about it. I promise the hon. Member that I will go into it carefully, and that I will give him a considered reply. After consultation with those who know more about workmen's compensation than 1, I may find that certain objections are raised, but, if I can find a way whereby we can set up these tribunals, I shall be delighted. We have had a very useful Debate. I welcome it, because I feel that the more the public know about the workings of my Department and what we are trying to do for those who have suffered by reason of their service to the country, the better it is for my Department.
I think that the reply we have had from the Minister is very unsatisfactory. He has not dealt with the type of case which has been put before him in anything like a satisfactory manner. In regard to one case that I put to him, there was the evidence of the man's discharge from the Army, evidence of the man's medical adviser and evidence of the medical officer of the factory where he was working, and yet, in spite of that, I was unable to get any pension from the Minister. I think that the way in which the Minister is refusing these pensions is absolutely unsatisfactory.
It being the hour appointed for the Adjournment of the House , Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order .