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Commons Chamber

Volume 379: debated on Wednesday 6 May 1942

House of Commons

Wednesday, May 6, 1942

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]

Government of India Act, 1935. (Answer to Address.)

The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD (Mr. BOULTON) reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address, as followeth:

I have received your Address praying that the Government of India Act, 1935 ( Governors' Allowances and Privileges ) ( Amendment ) Order, 1942 , be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament .

I will comply with your request .

Private Business

London Passenger Transport Board Bill,

"to confer further powers upon the London Passenger Transport Board with respect to the creation and issue of Transport Stock; and for other purposes," presented, and read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Chinese Red Cross (British Assistance.)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether His Majesty's Government contemplate giving financial assistance to the Chinese Red Cross?

Yes, Sir. His Majesty's Ambassador recently drew attention to the urgent need of further financial assistance in the field of military medical relief in China, and he recommended that a sum of £50,000 should be made available to the Chinese Red Cross. Of this sum I understand that £8,500 has been contributed from private sources in this country for the purchase of petrol. His Majesty's Government for their part have now agreed to make an unconditional grant-in-aid to the Chinese Red Cross of £41,500, making up the total of £50,000. Application will be made to Parliament in due course for the provision of the necessary funds.

Japan (British Prisoners)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs for what reasons Switzerland has taken over from the Argentine the duties of representing British interests in Japan; and whether, following this change, any new representations will be made through the Swiss representatives to obtain more information about the conditions of British prisoners of war and civilian internees in Japanese hands?

As regards the first part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cambridge (Lieutenant-Commander Tufnell) yesterday. As regards the second part, His Majesty's Government will continue to urge, as they have urged in the past, that proper facilities should be given by Japan for obtaining more information on this subject.

Can my hon. Friend say whether, since the Swiss representative has taken over, he has had any news at all?

I am afraid I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend said yesterday.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the Swiss have an adequate organisation to take on this very difficult task?

Yes, Sir, I am perfectly satisfied. They have specialised on this subject and have augmented their staff to deal with it.

Shanghai Municipal Police Pensioners

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the embarrassing situation of pensioners of the Shanghai municipal police since the administration of the Shanghai Settlement was taken over by the Japanese; what payment these pensioners have received since the end of September, 1941; whether the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank in London is willing to discharge the outstanding payments to these pensioners; and will he provide the necessary guarantee?

Yes, Sir. I am aware of the difficult position in which these pensioners find themselves as a result of the enforced suspension of the payment of their pensions by the Shanghai Municipal Council. I understand that no payment has, in fact, been made since that for the quarter ending on 30th September, 1941. The Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation have stated that they are prepared to arrange a credit provided that a satisfactory guarantee can be given; but this would involve the assumption by His Majesty's Government of a financial commitment which they are not prepared to accept. His Majesty's Government view the case of these pensioners with every sympathy, but, as explained by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 20th January last, it is not possible to treat people in this category more favourably than the dependents of British subjects detained in other territories overrun by the than the dependants of Britist subjects in this country who have lost their livelihood by reason of enemy action or threatened enemy action.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that there is peculiar hardship in these cases? These people have not received any money for a long period. Will he again take into consideration the peculiar difficulties with which they are faced?

Certainly I realise that there has been very great hardship indeed. As I have tried to explain, the Government are very sympathetic, but it is very difficult to see how one can take these particular cases into consideration and leave out others where hardship may be equally great or even greater.

Is it not a fact that the members of the Shanghai Police Force were all recruited in England and were amenable to King's Regulations, and should not their case be specially considered?

Royal Air Force

Awards (Distinctions)

asked the Secretary of State for Air why, in the recent raid on Augsburg, led by Squadron-Leader Nettleton, V.C., the non-commissioned officers who had equal responsibility and showed equal valour and skill are given a lesser award, the D.F.M., than the commissioned officers who are awarded the D.F.C.; and why, in a war for democracy, these class distinctions are maintained?

As I informed the hon. Member in reply to a Question on 10th December last, the D.F.C. and the D.F.M. are equal in merit. No class distinction is involved in the award of these decorations.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Distinguished Flying Cross has ever been given to other than a commissioned officer?

No, Sir, but I do say that the officers and non-commissioned officers are drawn from all classes of the population, and that class distinctions do not exist in the Royal Air Force.

Does not that answer bear out what I have said? What is the good of the right hon. Gentleman talking the nonsense he does?

The hon. Member ought not to use language of that kind in putting supplementary questions.

If, as the right hon. Gentleman said, there is no difference in merit as between one distinction and another, why not have one distinction alone?

Because great traditions are gathered round the Distinguished Flying Medal. It is as much valued by the men who receive it as the Distinguished Flying Cross, and we intend to retain both.

Are we to understand, when the right hon. Gentleman says, "We intend to retain both," that if this House should decide to make a change, he will put himself above the House?

I hardly think the hon. Member will consider it worth my while to answer that. Of course, this House is sovereign, and no Minister, least of all myself, would deny it.

Women Drivers (Pay)

asked the Secretary of State for Air why women serving as drivers at Adastral House, Kingsway, W.C., have received only 20s. each since 1st April this year; and why their demand for pay at the rate of 11s. per week has been refused?

The drivers referred to by my hon. Friend are paid fortnightly, and I am advised that, except in two cases where deductions of pay were made to offset allotments, none of them received less than 22s. a fortnight during the month of April.

Will my right hon. Friend state whether billets are provided by the Ministry for these women at St. John's Wood; whether their train fare is 8d. per day, equivalent to 4s. per week, whether this does not mean their pay is actually reduced to 1s. per week; and whether they have been informed that they are in debt to the Ministry although they allege they have only received 20s. each?

I will certainly make further inquiries into the hon. Member's suggestion.

Aircraft Production

Comptroller and Auditor-General's Report

asked the Minister of Aircraft Production, what negotiations have taken place with the firm referred to in paragraph 122 of the Auditor-General's Report; with what result; and whether he will disclose the name of the firm?

12 and 13.

asked the Minister of Aircraft Production (1) to what extent compulsory powers of requisition or acquisition exist enabling him to take over war equipment factories such as that mentioned in paragraph 122 of the Comptroller and Auditor-General's Report; and why such powers have not been exercised in this case;

(2) the nationality of the shareholders of the gun factory mentioned in paragraph 122 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General; whether financial control of the company is in the hands of persons other than British nationals; and whether there is a substantial financial interest in the form of nominee shareholdings?

I would refer my hon. Friends to the answers I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards) on 29th April. I think that the House should allow this matter first to be considered by the Public Accounts Committee, which has, I understand, agreed to meet on Friday for this special purpose.

Has not my right hon. and gallant Friend said in reply to a previous Question that a portion of the shareholding of this company was held by foreign shareholders? As it may be that the committee of investigation will not give this information to the House, will the Minister say what portion of that shareholding is owned by foreign interests?

This arises out of a Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General to the Public Accounts Committee. I think it would be better that the House should allow the whole matter to be discussed by that Committee and not discussed piecemeal before we get their Report.

Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman give some sort of assurance that the Questions I have asked will be answered at some time?

If at the appropriate time they are put down, I shall certainly be glad to answer them.

Salvage Dump (Railway Siding, Swindon)

asked the Minister of Aircraft Production what disciplinary action he has taken against those responsible for gross waste by their action in despatching substantial quantities of valuable cardboard, paper, metal and straw in trucks for dumping at a railway siding near Swindon?

I do not think that any action is called for beyond that already taken, which will, I am satisfied, prevent a recurrence of the trouble.

While I thank the right hon. and gallant Gentleman for his answer, is he aware that people feel very strongly that where there has been gross waste of this nature punishment ought to follow in the same way that fines are laid upon people who waste paper or metal in any way at all?

This matter was not a criminal offence until 9th March, and the occurrence to which the hon. Member refers was before that. I am quite satisfied it was a matter which the firm are now overcoming. Instructions have been issued with regard to this rubbish, and they are seeing that it is all properly sorted out now.

Fleet Air Arm (Aircraft)

asked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether, since the commencement of the war, opportunity has been given to all firms in this country making aircraft to submit plans for evolving a superior fighter or torpedo plant for the Fleet Air Arm?

Yes, Sir. Although specifications for Naval Air Service aircraft are issued only to a limited number of firms, proposals from any manufacturer for evolving better types are, of course, welcomed.

Contracts (Distribution)

asked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether he can give an assurance that the arrangements under which aircraft orders were confined to a limited number of approved firms has now been disposed of entirely and that orders are distributed by his Department without any regard to pre-war consideration of preserving a certain number of nucleus firms?

Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not aware that when these proposals come from outsiders advantage is sometimes taken of them to give the business to the "ring"?

Questions

Railings Removal

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether he is aware that lessees of property, including workmen's dwellings, holding on long leases who have had their protective railings removed by various borough councils acting on behalf of the Ministry under the recent Order, have been informed that they are not entitled to receive any compensation in respect of such railings originally erected by them, but that the compensation is payable to the original freeholders of the land on which the lessees had erected the buildings and railings in question; and whether this action has the approval of the Ministry and is taken on their instruction?

The person to whom compensation is payable in respect of requisitioned railings is determined in accordance with the provisions of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939. I am advised that the person entitled to sell the severed railings, and, therefore, to the compensation, in most cases is the freeholder.

Is it not an absurd situation that the freeholder, who has not erected the railings, and has no responsibility for protecting the premises, is to receive compensation for something with which he is not concerned?

I am entitled to reply only in accordance with the terms of the Compensation Act.

Surely, when my hon. Friend gets a little encouragement from Members of the Conservative party, he ought to accept it.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether he has considered a letter from the Public Works and General Purposes Committee of the County Borough of Dudley drawing attention to the way in which the removal of railings on corporation property has destroyed dwarf-walls and broken footpaths, causing danger to the public; and what action does he propose to take?

Yes, Sir. Some damage is unavoidable when railings are removed, but this will be repaired by my Department as soon as possible.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise how exceedingly discontented and unhappy people are on this subject, not only in the County Borough of Dudley, but in many other places?

These protests have been made so many times that we are very well aware of the feelings of people whose railings have been taken away. I am very sorry; I only hope that none of them will lose more than their railings as a result of the war.

Will the hon. Gentleman go into the whole question of compensation? The position is very unfair.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether he is aware that in many cases contractors have arrived to remove iron railings without giving any notice to the owners; that in some cases railings not scheduled for removal have been removed; that in a number of cases unnecessary damage has been done during the process of removal; and whether he will issue orders that at least three days' notice be given to owners of the arrival of contractors to remove railings, in order that mistakes and damage may be, as far as possible, obviated?

Individual notices have not been issued in all cases, but notices of scheduling and requisition have been published and exhibited by local authorities. I regret that in some cases railings which have not been scheduled have been removed in error; but where necessary alternative protection has been, or will be provided. As regards damage caused in the course of removal, I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answers I have given on previous occasions, and in particular to the hon. Member for Ealing (Sir F. Sanderson) on 11th March last. Arrangements are being made to ensure that individual notices will be issued in all cases, but I cannot guarantee that three days' prior notice will be given.

Is my hon. Friend aware that notices by local authorities, published in little-read local papers, are very apt not to reach the persons concerned? Is it too much to ask that in matters of this kind, where considerable hardship is being inflicted on owners and occupiers, which in most cases is being cheerfully borne, individual notice should be given before the arrival of contractors to take away these people's property?

Yes, Sir; it is because I know that such notices are not read by every individual that I decided to have a notice delivered at the house before the arrival of the contractors, thus reinforcing the notice already given by the local authorities.

Is that notice delivered in the house on the morning when the contractors arrive or a few days before?

Sometimes there is three days' notice, and sometimes more. There is always a day's notice.

Sometimes the notice is given 15 minutes before the contractors actually arrive.

I am not aware of that, but if there are any such cases, I would like to have information.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the password in this matter of railings must be, "Mercilessness"?

Iron and Steel Scrap (County Sweeps)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings the amount of iron and steel-scrap which, as the result of the national survey, has been recovered for the British Iron and Steel Corporation (Scrap), Limited, in each of the counties of Essex, Cumberland and Wiltshire; and the total expenses incurred in salaries, overhead charges, travelling and cost of all kinds, to achieve this result?

I assume that by "national survey," the hon. Member refers to the county sweeps. From Essex, Cumberland and Wiltshire, as a result of these sweeps, 1,521, 589, and 1,352 tons respectively have, up to 25th April last been recovered. In addition, approxi- mately 3,500 tons have been discovered but have not yet been sent forward to consuming works. The total expenses incurred on staff, travelling and expenses, are estimated at £3,250.

Royal Navy

Clerical Work, Good Friday (Pay)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the rate of pay received on Good Friday by a clerical section, at a station the name of which has been sent to him?

The basis of payment for Good Friday to the clerical staff at the station referred to was the same as that authorised to be applied to clerical staffs in Government establishments generally. On this basis, the lower clerical grades, which form the great majority of the clerical staff, received payment at the rate of time and one-half, in addition to their normal pay for the day.

When the Government ask the country to make Good Friday a working day, is it fair to the members of the Fighting Forces that these people should get this extra time and one-half in addition to their ordinary pay?

The reasons for giving this extra pay were explained in reply to a Question by the hon. Member on, I think, 21st April.

Officers' Widows (Pensions)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will consider taking further steps to ensure that dependants of naval officers serving in a rank lower than their rank on retirement and losing their lives should receive pensions at the higher rate?

As I explained in my replies to Questions on this subject on 4th March, the War Pensions Regulations, which are the same for the Navy as for the other Fighting Services, are adminis- tered by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions, who is apprised of all considerations affecting this matter. As I informed my hon. Friend, in reply to her Question on this subject on 13th April, 1942, following consultations with the other Departments concerned, the Admiralty, in common with the other other two Service Departments, has been empowered to grant supplementary widows' pensions up to a maximum of £65 a year, in order that the widow of a retired officer who loses his life as a result of further war service shall not normally receive less than if her husband had lost his life on Civil Defence service. This additional benefit is in certain cases a valuable concession, as, for instance, when an officer was serving in a much lower rank than that in which he retired.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the country extremely resents this parsimonious treatment by the Admiralty and the Treasury of serving naval officers? Will he make further representations to the appropriate authority?

Representations have been made as to our views about the rates of pension. But any concession of this kind must apply to higher ranks in all the Services; therefore, the representations would have to be in respect of the three Service Departments.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no comparison whatever between the services carried out by these admirals, serving as commodores of convoys, and those carried out by Army officers, in the Home Guard or anywhere else? Also, is he aware that, in fact, the widows of these officers up to and including the rank of vice-admiral are getting less in pension than they received before?

With regard to the first point, we are well aware of, and very grateful for, the services rendered in this very dangerous task. That is the reason for the strong representations I have made. With regard to the second point, the hon. and gallant Member is not correct. His mistake might easily arise from a schedule published in a newspaper; but, in fact, the concession means that they will get the higher of whichever pensions are applicable, so that there is no reduction whatever in the amount paid. In the case of a full admiral, the increase is £30. There is no reduction in the case of other officers serving as commodores. The concession also means this. We have a large number of officers serving, both at home and abroad, in lower ranks. The widow of an admiral serving as captain or commander will get an addition of £65; of a vice-admiral serving as captain £37 10s., or as commander £57 10s.; of a rear-admiral serving as commander £20.

This is a very important question. May I ask another supplementary?

I beg to give notice that in view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the first opportunity.

Questions

Palestine (Refugees)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what action it is proposed to take with regard to 800 refugees, men, women and children, who have been interned at Athlit, near Haifa, for the past 12 months?

This question is now under examination. I am not at present in a position to make any statement.

When will my right hon. Friend be able to make a statement on this matter?

I cannot say exactly. Perhaps my hon. Friend will get in touch with me, and I will let him know when to repeat the Question.

In view of the very alarming rumours reaching people in Palestine, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that there is no question of deporting people abroad?

Kenya

Civil Defence and Supply Council

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies who will represent African interests on the new Civil Defence and Supply Council in Kenya?

The primary object of the new Civil Defence and Supply Council in Kenya is to provide for consideration and co-ordination of Civil Defence, supply and production problems. The members have been selected for their personal suitability or previous experience of the duties assigned to them and not on the basis of any sectional or racial representation. The sphere with which Africans are most concerned is civil emergency services and man-power; those are in the charge of the Attorney-General, who has appointed a committee to advise him, whose membership includes the Chief Native Commissioner.

In view of the vital interest of Africans in the whole problem of production in this particular territory, will my right hon. Friend see that they are directly represented, in view of the fact that all other interests in that Colony are now represented on this particular body?

I said in my reply that our purpose is to obtain results and not to have any racial or sectional differences.

Does it mean that in the estimation of the right hon. Gentleman there is no African capable of being placed upon this body?

Maize (Price)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a standard price and market have been guaranteed to the producers of maize in Kenya, irrespective of race; whether any surplus maize offered by Africans will be in a less favourable position than that produced by Europeans; and whether any surplus African produce can be utilised for war needs on terms equal to those guaranteed to Europeans?

As I stated in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend on 28th April, a scheme is in preparation for extending control and guaranteed prices to African-grown maize, calculated to have a similar effect to the scheme in operation for non-native maize. There is no intention of fixing different prices for different parcels of the same commodity just because one is produced by Europeans and the other by Africans. On the other hand, there can be no question of fixing the same price for grades of different qualities and characteristics just because both are broadly called "maize".

Labour Ordinance (Inspectorate)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress has been made in securing an adequate staff of inspectors under the Kenya Compulsory Labour Ordinance?

My noble Friend has informed the Governor of Kenya that he considers the provision of an adequate inspectorate to be essential. I have no doubt that the Governor is taking the necessary steps, but there has not yet been time for us to receive a full report.

Will consideration be given to the appointment of African inspectors, as urged by Archdeacon Owen?

Questions

Northern Rhodesia (Food Production)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are being taken in Northern Rhodesia to prevent a shortage of labour on food production in that Protectorate; how many Africans were conscripted for work on European farms in the two months experiment; whether the experiment will be renewed; and whether a standard price for maize is guaranteed equally to Africans and Europeans?

730 labourers were conscripted to meet the immediate needs of approved farmers. These labourers were due to be discharged at the end of April, and it was necessary to replace them. Endeavours to find replacements under voluntary arrangements failed, and my noble Friend agreed to the Governor using compulsory powers for a further period of two months from the end of April. Labourers compulsorily recruited in May and June will be given wages and rations not less favourable than those whom they will replace. The conscripted labourers have been very satisfactory, have had no complaints and have in every way behaved and been treated in the same way as voluntary workers. As regards the last part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply of 28th April.

Have any safeguards of any kind been taken so far as this conscript labour is concerned; is there an adequate inspectorate; and why is this discrimination permitted of compelling Africans to work on private farms for the private profit of Europeans?

These are all questions of a wider character which we debated not very long ago in this House.

Is it not of importance that the utmost production should be got from these Colonies at the present time in the interest of the natives?

Jamaica (Petrol Rationing and Food Supplies)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that restrictions on the use of petrol have led to a serious shortage of food supplies in Jamaica; what measures have been taken to relieve the position; what additional facilities for storage are being provided; and whether any comprehensive system of rationing and price control is being planned?

Petrol rationing has been introduced in Jamaica on the general lines of the scheme in force in the United Kingdom. For a short period after the introduction of rationing there were difficulties in regard to the importation of supplies of petrol which affected the transport of foodstuffs. These difficulties were, however, speedily overcome and the Governor has since reported that the position is satisfactory. The question of the provision of additional storage facilities is under consideration; and price control is being planned. The Governor has reported, however, that he does not consider rationing practicable in existing conditions.

Nigeria (Press Censorship)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Press Censorship Law enacted at Lagos on 4th February does not allow defence in respect of a person accused by the Governor of publishing any information on labour unrest or food shortage which he considers might raise the morale of the enemy; whether editors or publishers of newspapers can submit to the Governor beforehand any paragraph or article that might be liable to this criticism; whether any prosecutions for this offence have taken place; and whether this law can be modified to allow for defence and also the legitimate expression of economic grievances?

Yes, Sir, my Noble Friend is aware of the terms of the Press Censorship legislation enacted in Nigeria on 4th February. The answer to the second part of the Question is in the affirmative: as regards the third part, no reports of any prosecutions have been received. In present circumstances, my Noble Friend is not prepared to ask the Governor to consider amending the legislation.

Does the right hon. Gentleman feel that it is really necessary to extend these restrictions and prohibitions in regard to labour unrest and food supplies? Surely, some modification might be made in that connection and some kind of provision included in this Ordinance?

I think that perhaps the hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension. The legislation provides that the Governor's certificate produced in court is final on the question of whether any material published is likely to cause disaffection or not, but, of course, the court can consider whether the man has published it or whether there are extenuating circumstances. The position is really almost exactly similar to that in this country.

Is not this an extraordinary power to give to the Governor of being both judge and jury in court?

Colonies (Civil Defence)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is satisfied that everything possible has been, and is being, done in the Colonies respecting air-raid precautions; whether the £60,000 allocated by the Nigerian Government has now been spent and how much has been spent in the Gold Coast; and whether the number and training of volunteers for air-raid precautions is now considered adequate?

As regards the first part of the Question, substantial progress has been made with Civil Defence measures in the Colonial Territories generally. The arrangements previously made were reviewed in the light of experience in the Far East, and the attention of the Governments of territories that might be attacked was drawn to certain aspects of Civil Defence which were shown by that experience to be of special importance. My Noble Friend is satisfied that Colonial Governments are fully alive to the importance and urgency of the matter, including the proper training of personnel for these duties. At the request of a number of Colonies, additional experienced A.R.P. officers are being sent from the United Kingdom to advise them on Civil Defence measures. In order that Colonial Civil Defence matters may be kept constantly under review, certain Colonies (i.e., those more likely to be attacked) have been asked to submit monthly progress reports. As regards the second part of the Question, exact figures of expenditure are not available; the Nigeria Government has, however, provided £54,000 and the Gold Coast Government £20,000 in the current estimates.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any information regarding the number of persons who have been enrolled in the A.R.P. service?

There are a great number of Colonies, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman will ask for particular figures for particular Colonies and I will try to obtain them.

Colonial People, United Kingdom (Hostels)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies for what hostels the £14,250 has been allocated for the welfare of Colonial people in the United Kingdom; and in what more specific manner than stated in the Civil Estimates the sum of £22,750 on adaptation and equipment of hostels is being spent?

£14,250 has been allocated for the adaptation and equipment of buildings as hostels for Colonial seamen in London, Cardiff, Liverpool and North Shields, and for hostels for new parties of West Indian trainees for munition work, and also for a Students' Club in Edinburgh which has just been opened. £5,500 is for maintenance grants for these and other hostels as required. £400 is for small grants to provide amenities, and £1,500 has been earmarked to provide a loan fund for students and for the relief of distress among Colonial people in the United Kingdom. This leaves an unallocated balance of £1,100.

Are any steps being taken to see that the money spent in this direction is being wisely spent, and has any of this money been allocated to older hostels for Colonials in this country?

I think that the money for this new service is very well spent and very much needed. I had the pleasure of seeing some of the hostels during the week-end, and I believe that they will be of very useful service to Colonials when in England. As regards the old existing hostels and clubs, these are not in any way ill-affected by the vote of this new money.

In view of the unfortunate prejudice in some quarters against non-European subjects of the King from overseas, will my right hon. Friend make the existence of these hostels as widely known as possible to any non-European fellow subjects of ours who may come to this country either for business or pleasure?

Has nothing been done to establish hostels in the very large seaport of Glasgow?

We have made a start with these four. They were only very recently started, and I will certainly consider that suggestion.

Trinidad (Processions and Public Meetings)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the trades union movement in Trinidad is being hampered by the ordinance that any 10 persons holding a meeting without Government permit, which is frequently refused, are subject to prosecution, fines and/or imprisonment; and whether he has considered the desirability of recommending the Governor to withdraw this regulation?

The Defence Regulation to which my hon. Friend refers provides that, with certain exceptions, the prior written permission of the Commissioner of Police must be obtained for all processions or meetings of 20 or more persons in a public space. It does not apply to meetings held in private. My Noble Friend is in communication with the Governor regarding this question, and I will communicate with my hon. Friend on receipt of the Governor's reply.

Ceylon (Illegal Organisations)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies the reason why the Governor of Ceylon suppressed the Lanka Sama Samaj Party and the United Socialist Party of Ceylon in March last; and whether steps are being taken to release anti-Fascists in Ceylon from detention?

These organisations were declared illegal as they had been active in fomenting strikes and unrest and publishing seditious matter. Those enemy aliens of whose anti-Nazi and anti-Fascist sympathies the local Government were satisfied were released from internment, but in the present situation the list of enemy aliens at large has been reviewed and a number of further internments ordered.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the two organisations mentioned at the beginning of my Question have very cordially expressed themselves repeatedly in favour of the Allied war effort?

I am sorry. I had some difficulty in answering the Question because two parts of it appeared to refer to quite different matters. I have answered it in the best way I can.

Overloaded Commercial Vehicles (Tyre Damage)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is aware that the overloading of commercial vehicles causes irreparable damage to tyre casings, resulting in their being unsuitable for retreading; and what steps he proposes to take to deal with the matter?

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport
(Mr. Noel-Baker)

I am aware that the overloading of commercial vehicles may damage tyre casings and render them unsuitable for retreading. The Tyre Control Department of the Ministry of Supply will take every step to call the attention of operators to the point. They will also bring to the notice of my Department instances where tyre casings have been thus damaged, in order that appropriate action may be taken against the operators.

Ministry of Information

Professor Mittwoch and Dr. Schacht

asked the Minister of Information on what date were the Ministry of Information passes withdrawn from Professor Mittwoch and Dr. Schacht?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for raising this Question again. Although these two gentlemen have never held Ministry of Information staff passes, further inquiry has revealed that they do hold identification passes of a type normally issued to people who deliver material to the Ministry from newspaper offices. The issue of such passes in this instance was clearly irregular, and orders have been given that they should be withdrawn.

Is it a fact that these passes are occasionally withdrawn and then re-issued, and, further, may I ask whether Dr. Schacht is any relation to the doctor of the same name, the former Finance Minister to the German Chancellor?

These passes are constantly changing in the Ministry of Information, because journalists come and go and all have to have passes. I have not studied the family tree of Dr. Schacht, so I cannot say whether he is related to Hitler's former Minister of Finance.

I could not say, but I should think they were held for three or four months. In any event they are to be withdrawn now.

Are these passes issued without inquiry into the antecedents of the people who are to receive them?

No, Sir, they are not issued without inquiry. Staff passes have to be approved by a high official of the Ministry. These casual and temporary passes are issued by subordinate officials. In my opinion the official responsible for issuing these passes deserves a rebuke, but, unfortunately, he has left the Ministry, so he cannot receive it.

Should not inquiry be made into the antecedents of the people who want the passes?

Dr. Schacht is supposed to be a great Oriental scholar, and our security officers have most carefully investigated his career.

asked the Minister of Information on what grounds the salaries of Professor Mittwoch and Dr. Schacht were fixed at rates corresponding to those of a senior specialist?

These gentlemen do not receive a salary from the Ministry of Information but are employed on a fee basis. In each case the fee has been stabilised at £50 a month, which is considered to be a reasonable amount for the work performed by them. A certificate that the work has been satisfactorily performed is given each month by the Director of the Division concerned. The position is constantly under review.

Will the Minister make it clear who does pay, because I could not hear his answer?

King Ibn Saud's Accession (Broadcast)

asked the Minister of Information why congratulations on the occasion of the anniversary of His Majesty King Ibn Saud's accession to the throne were incorporated in a British Broadcasting Corporation broadcast prepared by a German, Dr. Schacht, and were announced as provided by a German?

The congratulations offered on the occasion of the anniversary of His Majesty Ibn Saud's accession in a news bulletin broadcast in the British Broadcasting Corporation's Arabic Service were not prepared by Dr. Schacht and were not announced as having been provided by a German. A talk by Dr. Schacht on the founder of the Legal School to which King Ibn Saud and the majority of his subjects adhere was, indeed, included in the Arabic programme on the same day; but it contained only an incidental reference to the anniversary. Dr. Schacht was invited to contribute this talk as a recognised authority on Moslem law.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Dr. Schacht's name was given and published to the Arabs as being the author of this broadcast? Why should we confuse the Arab mind in this way by implying that we have no distinguished Oriental scholars?

I must explain to my hon. and gallant Friend that there is no question of our not having, or publishing that we have not, many distinguished Orientalists. Dr. Schacht is very well known in that part of the world—[An HON. MEMBER: "As a German and our enemy."] He may be known as a German, but he is also known as a former distinguished professor at the University at Cairo, at which he made a special study of these particular problems.

Would it not be better to get rid altogether of the Schachts and the Mittwochs from the Ministry?

No, Sir, it would not be better at all. I think it is a great pity to conduct these heresy hunts. They are utterly illiberal and more worthy of Germany than this country.

Did not a lot of people on that side of the House side as thick as mud with them in 1939?

Broadcasts to Arabs

asked the Minister of Information whether he is aware that most of the talks of a non-Arab origin broadcast by the British Broadcasting Corporation to the Arabs are being prepared by a German, Dr. Schacht, and advertised as of German origin; that this is creating in the Arab mind the impression that there exist no British orientalists; and why is a German orientalist employed and publicised so much more than any British orientalist?

One hundred or so talks of non-Arab origin have been broadcast in the Arabic programme of the B.B.C. during the past year, and of these no more than 12 have been written by Dr. Schacht. Every opportunity is taken to broadcast talks by British orientalists, and I do not know of any foundation for the suggestion that the employment of Dr. Schacht is creating in the Arab mind the impression that there are no existing British orientalists.

Is not the use of Dr. Schacht more likely to contribute to the idea among Arabs that not all Germans are followers of Hitler?

German Atrocities (Molotov Note)

asked the Minister of Information whether it is his intention to issue a further pamphlet on the second Molotov Memorandum on German atrocities in Russia?

I understand that the Soviet Embassy wish to arrange for the publication of this new Note by Mr. Molotov, and that the same facilities as previously given will be extended to them to enable it to be printed.

Can my right hon. Friend give some assurance that this pamphlet will be distributed in large quantities, because, with regard to the last pamphlet, although it was supposed to be widely circulated, it was found very difficult to get copies? Will he see that this pamphlet is on the bookstalls everywhere?

The trouble about the last pamphlet was that it was a best seller, and that was the reason it was not easily obtainable from time to time.

Questions

Bombed House of Commons Chamber (Symbolic Stone)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of sending a selected block of stone taken from the bombed Chamber of the Commons, suitably inscribed, to the Congress of the United States of America and the Parliaments of the Dominions, as a symbol of a common resolution to wage war in defence of democratic government in spite of attacks by the enemy?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for his suggestion, which will be borne in mind.

Atlantic Charter

asked the Prime Minister what steps have been taken to put into operation the Atlantic Charter; to prepare plans for the post-war economic rebuilding of Britain in co-operation with the other United Nations; and has he considered the advisability of setting up a national resources planning board in order that plans can be ready at the end of hostilities?

The Atlantic Charter is a joint declaration of the principles for which the war is being waged rather than a statement of action to be taken during the war. Plans for post-war reconstruction, both internal and world-wide, are being actively prepared under the general guidance and control of my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster-General, who, of course, has in mind the question of post-war international economic cooperation. I have drawn the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend to the suggestion put forward in the last part of the Question.

Birth Rate

asked the Prime Minister what machinery exists for inter-Departmental consultation on the policy to be adopted for maintaining our future population, in view of the particular wartime difficulties of bringing up children?

The difficulties to which my hon. Friend refers have been recognised by the special war-time measures mentioned in the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Ivor Thomas) on 23rd April. These measures form part of the administration of a number of public services, some of them carried out by the central Departments and others through the agency of local authorities, but the Government as a whole are responsible for determining the policy on which these measures are based.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his answer, may I ask what steps are being taken to inform the people of this country that there is not much point in winning the war if the British race is to cease to exist through committing racial suicide?

Electoral Redistribution

asked the Prime Minister whether, for the purpose of ensuring the effective democratic representation of all parts of the country, steps will be taken, at an early date, to examine the question of a redistribution of seats?

The technical problems involved in redistribution are among the matters referred to the Committee on Electoral Machinery which was set up at the beginning of this year. I understand that the Committee are giving immediate attention to this part of their inquiry.

Production

Machine Tool Industry

asked the Minister of Production what steps are being taken to maximise the shipment of machine tools for India and increase the immediate and potential supply industry in India?

India's total requirements upon us for machine tools were reviewed three weeks ago, and steps are being taken to ship tools as quickly as they can be made available and in the order in which they are required for use in India.

Is the Minister treating this matter as one of extreme urgency in view of shipping difficulties and the position in which India finds herself today?

asked the Minister of Production whether he is satisfied with the output of the machine tool industry; is there a national standard of alignment test applicable to all products; what steps are being taken to increase output; and can an investigation into costs now be made in all firms manufacturing machine tools?

I shall, naturally, not be satisfied until there is no point at which we are waiting for a machine tool. The current rate of production is more than six times the normal output. As regards standard alignment tests, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to him on 28th January by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply, to which I can add nothing. Machine tool prices are fixed by the Ministry of Supply, and cost investigations are continually taking place to establish such prices.

In view of the difficulties we have had with the machine tool industry in the past and its monopoly development since the war, can the Minister assure the House that the nation's needs are being put before the needs of the machine tool industry?

Works Magazines

asked the Minister of Production whether, in view of the desirability of explaining to workers in war industries the why and wherefore of the particular tasks on which they are engaged, he will make the necessary arrangements to ensure that adequate supplies of paper are made available for works magazines, which are essential to carry out the task referred to?

No, Sir. I consider that joint production committees are the best means for attaining the end my hon. Friend has in mind. The paper shortage makes it necessary to restrict the publication of periodicals of all kinds.

Does not the Minister consider it rather anomalous that magazines which were started before 16th August, 1940, are allowed to continue publication even though they are largely devoted to advertising firms' products, whereas magazines started after that date cannot get the necessary supplies of paper even though they are solely devoted to stimulating output and improving relations in factories?

May we hope for a restriction on the circulars sent to Members of this House?

Russian Aeroplanes and Tanks

asked the Minister of Production whether, in view of the large supplies of aeroplanes, tanks and other munitions of war which are being sent to Russia by Great Britain and America, we are receiving particulars of the design and equipment of the aeroplanes and tanks manufactured in Russia which have been so successful against the Germans in the recent fighting; and whether these machines are now being manufactured in Great Britain and America?

I regret it is not in the public interest to disclose the information asked for by my hon. Friend.

Will representations be made to the Soviet authorities as to the desirability of all available information as to these aeroplanes, which have been so successful against the Germans, being provided to our industry?

I may tell my hon. Friend that our test pilots have flown nearly all the Russian types of machines.

Factories, Liverpool

asked the Minister of Production whether he has considered the correspondence from the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool in regard to the available 40,000 square feet of factory space with labour included; and is he prepared to take these valuable factories over, with labour inclusive, and use them for war work?

I have just received a detailed report on the space available, and I am taking up with the Supply Departments the possibility of using it for war production and will let the hon. Member know the result.

Food Supplies

Calves' Heads and Feet (Scalding)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether instructions have been given that calves' feet should not be scalded at the time of slaughter; and whether, as unscalded heads and feet of calves are being distributed to retail butchers who have no facilities for scalding them, resulting in the loss of these commodities to the consuming general public, hospitals and other institutions, he will state the reasons for sanctioning this practice?

No such instructions as are referred to in the first part of the Question have been given. As regards the second part of the Question, butchers who have no facilities for scalding are under no obligation to purchase calves' heads and feet in the hair and have in some cases refused them, whereupon they have been readily accepted by other butchers. No loss of these commodities to the consuming public has occurred.

Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman explain how it is that these unscalded heads and feet get distributed to retailers for sale and are sometimes wasted because they have not been scalded?

I have no information as to the loss of these commodities. If the hon. Member has any information and will let me have it, I shall be glad to look into it.

Milk

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what is the estimated loss of milk by souring due to lack of, and delay in, transport during the past six months; and what action his Department proposes to take to prevent such loss in the future, particularly during the expected warmer weather of the Summer months?

I am not aware of any considerable loss of milk during the last six months due to the causes mentioned, although isolated incidents may have occurred where consignments were snowbound. It is generally possible to manufacture into products milk which has become too old for the liquid market, During the very hot weather last summer arrangements were made, where necessary, for milk to be collected from farms twice daily, and it is proposed to make similar arrangements this year should circumstances require it.

Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that one of the high officials of his Ministry made a statement to the Farmers' Club in the City of London some weeks ago to the effect that the trade were concerned about the wastage due to the milk going sour during transport, and that the position was likely to be worse during the summer months?

I have not heard or seen that statement. Perhaps the hon. Member will let me have it.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what is the total amount of milk granted in England and Wales to tuberculosis patients with priority claims; and the estimated amount which would be required to grant a priority supply of at least one pint per day to all tuberculosis contacts, that is, persons residing in the same house with a tuberculosis patient, and to all contacts under 30 years of age, not already in any of the priority classes, respectively?

I regret that I have no information upon which to base a reply to my hon. Friend's Question.

Pigs

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the number of pigs killed in bacon factories for rationing during 1941 and the number killed for home consumption by pig clubs and private individuals during the same period?

As I said in reply to a similar Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Liddall), my Noble Friend feels that the publication of figures of this nature is not in the public interest.

Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that the National Small Bacon Curers' Association consider that pigs are being slaughtered in an irregular manner, and will he take steps to stop that ramp?

Hotels and Restaurants

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he can now give the terms and effective date of the new Order dealing with amounts and prices of foodstuffs supplied to hotels and the like?

May I point out that by error the Question refers to "foodstuffs supplied to hotels"? It should have read: "supplied at hotels."

Is my right hon. and gallant Friend in a position to make any statement with reference to the new Order controlling the amounts and prices of foodstuffs supplied at hotels and restaurants?

When does my right hon. and gallant Friend expect to be able to make a statement on this much publicised matter?

It may have been much publicised, but not for very long, as it is only a fortnight since the original announcement was made. As I said last week, I will make a statement as soon as it is ready.

Ministry of Supply

Gear Hobbing Machines

asked the Minister of Supply why the Machine Tool Control has decided that certain hobbing machines of foreign design are to be made in this country by a firm of drilling machine manufacturers instead of by firms with experience in the manufacture of hobbing machines?

Experience of the manufacture of gear hobbing machines in this country is limited; and it was considered that the particular machines referred to could best be made by a firm of the highest standing who had already produced new types of machine tools with conspicuous success.

Road Transport Operators (Tyres)

asked the Minister of Supply what practical steps have been taken to effect economy in the consumption of tyres by road transport operators?

Old tyres have to be submitted for inspection on the vehicle before fresh ones are issued, and the attention of users will be called to any evidence of bad usage or mechanical defects causing undue tyre wear. Publicity is being given to methods of securing economy.

asked the Minister of Supply what steps he proposes to take to control the stocks of tyres in the hands of haulage contractors and other road transport operators?

Returns are being obtained of tyre stocks in the hands of users of commercial vehicles. The stocks may not be disposed of save under licence and will be taken into account before further tyres are issued.

Scrap Metal

asked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that his Department has recently issued posters to firms which are scheduled undertakings under the Essential Work (General Provisions) Orders, 1941, asking them to turn out all scrap-iron and steel, while they are finding it impossible to get their production swarf and steel scrap removed; and will he take steps to get this accelerated?

Scrap of most kinds, including those mentioned in the poster, is urgently needed by steelworks. Steps are being taken to improve the methods of dealing with swarf and turnings and I shall be glad to see that these steps are accelerated.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the difficulty at the present moment is to get the scrap heaps removed, and that people cannot get the merchants to take the material away? Will he accelerate the movement of this scrap?

Director of Scrap Supplies

asked the Minister of Supply what are the duties of the Director of Scrap Supplies?

The Director of Scrap Supplies, under the direction of the Iron and Steel Controller, watches generally over the collection of iron and steel scrap, controls its distribution to steel works and foundries, and administers the relevant price regulations.

Is the 1s. a ton levy still given to four scrap merchants for this particular purpose, and is there any reason for this levy to these four specialised firms to be continued?

Questions

Nominee Shareholdings (Identity)

asked the Attorney-General whether he will refer, for the opinion of the Law Revision Committee, the question whether Section 101 of the Companies Act, 1929, should be amended so as to require nominee shareholders to disclose, and companies to register, the names of the beneficial owners of the shares, without thereby affecting companies with notice of any trust?

My Noble Friend does not consider that the question of law to which the hon. Member refers is one which could usefully be considered by the Law Revision Committee. As to the question whether the existing machinery is sufficient to enable information about nominee holdings in shares to be placed at the disposal of the Government, I have nothing to add to the answer given to my hon. Friend on 28th April, 1942.

Having regard to the general terms of reference of the Law Revision Committee as laid down on their appointment in 1934, would not this question be within the scope of the committee if referred to them by my hon. and learned Friend?

If my hon. Friend will look at the purposes of the Section whose reference he suggests, he will find that they are, first, to relieve the company from taking notice of equitable interests in shares, and, secondly, to preclude persons claiming under their equitable titles from converting the company into a trustee; that is, it is concerned with the relations of the beneficial owners of the shares with the company. Now, the results of an alteration would be to cause certain administrative difficulties for companies, and these are matters of administration of the Companies Act, and not a matter of revision of law, which is the purpose of the committee to which my hon. Friend refers.

Would these administrative changes be possible without some amendment of the Companies Act?

The difficulty with regard to that is whether my hon. Friend has really directed his attention to the Section which would assist in that matter. As I understand my hon. Friend's purpose, it is to have clearer provision for the general knowledge of who the beneficial owners are. It is not therefore helpful to amend a Section which deals with relations of the nominees with the company, but I am quite prepared, in view of my hon. Friend's insistence in the matter, to consider all the relevant provisions from the object, which I think I correctly interpret, he has in mind.

Fuel Rationing Scheme

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any publicity officer has been, or is to be, appointed by his Department for the Fuel Rationing Scheme?

Any publicity work necessitated by a fuel rationing scheme will be carried out at the Board of Trade by the Director of Public Relations and his staff.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many of the 10,000 to 15,000 temporary clerks required for fuel rationing will be recruited by transfer or loan from other Departments?

The figure quoted by my hon. Friend is Sir William Beveridge's estimate of the clerical staff necessary for the short period during which fuel ration books would fee issued. I hope that a large proportion could be provided in the manner suggested by my hon. Friend. But I cannot give exact particulars.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that the President of the Board of Trade repeated this figure in this House? In any case, I am grateful for the answer, which has revealed that apparently Government establishments are largely overstaffed, in view of the fact that it is possible to take away some thousands of their staff.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how much of the 10,000,000 tons of coal it is estimated will be saved by fuel rationing will be on coal used for heating and lighting, respectively?

Under the points scheme recommended by Sir William Beveridge, each consumer would be free to use his ration as he pleased, so that it is not possible to estimate the economies which would be secured under a particular heading. The amount of fuel used for lighting is, however, small in relation to that used for heating, including cooking.

Does not the Answer show that a simple form of fuel rationing would provide the major amount of economy in coal which the President of the Board of Trade requires?

No doubt my hon. Friend will have a chance to convince the House that it may.

Will the Minister explain how old and sick people are to obtain additional coal and not go without clothes?

That is a point which my hon. Friend will be able to put to the President of the Board of Trade.

Is it not a fact that there is no scheme in front of the House? Why cannot these folk wait?

asked the Secretary for Mines whether, as a guide to the public in the consumption of fuel, he will state the approximate number of miner-minutes spent in the production of an average cwt. of coal and coke, therm of gas and unit of electricity, respectively?

The average output of coal per person employed in the mining industry, both underground and surface, is just over 21 cwts. per day. Assuming an actual working day of 7¼ hours or 435 minutes, the average labour time per cwt. is about 20 minutes. It is extremely difficult to estimate the time taken in the production of 1 cwt. of coke, a therm of gas and a unit of electricity, but the hon. Member will recall that Sir William Beveridge, in his Report on Fuel Rationing, has quoted the view that the exchange values for 1 cwt. of coal are 1½ cwts. of coke, 5 therms of gas and 90 units of electricity, respectively.

Is it possible to let consumers know which is the most economical fuel in miner-minutes?

It is not a question of miner-minutes, but which fuel is most available.

New Member Sworn

Francis Beattie, Esq., for the Burgh of Glasgow (Cathcart Division).

Privilege (Member's Speech):

I gave notice yesterday that I intended to raise a question of breach of Privilege, but, as the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) is not here, perhaps I may be allowed to postpone it.

This matter of a question of Privilege has always been regarded as a matter of urgency, and it would seem that this problem cannot be indefinitely burked. One would hope that the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) would visit the House to make his own statement as early as possible.

I learned about this matter in the Press only this morning on my arrival in London. The hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. Shakespeare) knows that I am very closely associated with the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern). I do not know whether the hon. Member for Norwich took any steps to warn the hon. Member for Shettleston, but, if he did, they were of a most inadequate kind. I was in contact with the hon. Member for Shettleston on Saturday, Sunday and Monday, and the hon. Member for Norwich could have been in telephonic communication with him yesterday. The hon. Member for Shettleston, had he known anything of this sort was to be raised, would certainly have been in his place, but he was completely ignorant up to the time we left for London last night that anything of this sort was to be raised. I for one think that, when questions of Privilege are being raised, the Privileges of the Member attacked ought also to be considered, and particularly do I resent the use of his name and the name of his constituency in public, when I know perfectly well that the hon. Member for Shettleston is completely clear of any possibility of guilt in this matter.

I can assure the hon. Member and the House that I would not wittingly, and I hope not unwittingly, do any thing unfair to a colleague, but this speech which I hope to raise was only put into my hands a few moments before Questions, and I took a serious view of it. I immediately approached the Leader of the House and gave notice that I wished to raise it. I made inquiries about procedure, and I was told I must raise it on the first Parliamentary opportunity, which was yesterday. I did my best to find out where the hon. Member for Shettleston was, but I failed. I got in touch with a room where he was likely to be, and I left messages in various parts of the House. Thereafter, I was in the House and did not leave until later because my conduct was in question. Just after 4 o'clock I sent a telegram to an address, which I believe was correct—

in Scotland, saying that I intended to raise the matter in the House, but would not do so until the hon. Member was present to reply.

I am afraid that some misunderstanding has arisen as to what I said to the hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. Shakespeare). I did say that he ought not to have mentioned the Member's name when he said he was going to raise a question of Privilege. Naturally, I understood—I do now, at any rate —that he did so under the impression that he ought to raise it at the earliest possible moment and therefore that it was necessary for him to do so at that time. I did not understand that full notice had been given to the hon. Member that he ought to have been present. I certainly do not wish to accuse the hon. Member for Norwich of having been unfair in any way to the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) and certainly it was not intended to be so. It is the practice of the House that these questions should be raised at the earliest possible moment, but, of course, that is liable to be extended according to the extent to which the hon. Member against whom a complaint is made has had an opportunity of being informed and of being present. Of course, if he has had the opportunity and does not attend, the question must be raised without him. I propose that we should leave this until the next Sitting Day and that it should then be raised again.

Unless my hon. Friend the Member for Shettleston—[ Interruption .] Do not let us forget that the basis of all this is supposed to be fair play. If we let that get out of our minds, we are lost completely. My hon. Friend cannot be in his place on the next Sitting Day except by cancelling certain engagements. He will not attempt to block this being raised at a convenient time, and if it is not raised by the hon. Member for Norwich, he will raise it himself. Therefore there is no need for the hon. Member to worry about the one day or two days, but he should worry about when my hon. Friend can be present.

Surely the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) is making a mountain out of a molehill. The question that is being brought up, I understand, is the report of a speech. Clearly it is quite unnecessary for the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) to be present to say whether the report of his speech is or is not a question of Privilege. That is a matter for Mr. Speaker and for the Committee of Privileges. It is a written report of a speech.

What I am concerned about now are the decencies and courtesies which have existed between Members since I came here 20 years ago. The Noble Lord has been here longer and has perhaps seen more of it than I have, but, generally speaking, the House is more than decent to anyone who has any complaint made against him. The hon. Member for Norwich says he ran round the House in the last five minutes to see if he could see my hon. Friend and then came in and raised it without giving appropriate notice in the sense that we have always meant in the House of Commons.

On a point of Order. Will it be in Order at this stage to raise a question regarding the Business of the House for the next Sitting Day?

We must dispose of the present Business first. The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) has raised the question of the fairness which is usually shown to Members against whom a complaint has been made, and I can endorse the views that he has expressed with regard to that. One always wants to be fair to a Member against whom a complaint has been made and to give him every opportunity of making an explanation if he should see fit. But there must be limits to it, and, provided that the hon. Member has had due notice, his first duty is to attend in spite of anything unless he is ill. Therefore, unless he attends on the next Sitting Day, or can show good cause why he should not attend, we must proceed without him.

If you regard as adequate notice a note from the hon. Member for Norwich after he has already publicised the matter, is there any summons that goes from you, Sir, in circumstances of that sort?

It has nothing to do with me. The notice has to be given by the hon. Member who proposes to raise the question of Privilege. That can be done and probably has been done. If it has been done, it is the duty of the hon. Member, unless something unavoidable prevents him from doing so, to attend.

My point is that my colleague would have regarded a summons or a notice from you, Sir, as being something that had to be attended to, but I question very much whether he would take the same view of a note from the hon. Member opposite.

Business of the House

I desire to ask the Leader of the House a Question regarding the Business for the next Sitting Day. I raised the matter yesterday, although by inadvertence the statement is attributed in the OFFICIAL REPORT to another Member, who I hope will not be embarrassed. I want to ask the Leader of the House if he will explain more clearly what procedure the Government intend to adopt in connection with the fuel restriction Debate. From the answer which my right hon. and learned Friend gave yesterday, I think the House may understand that the Government are not committed to any particular form of rationing or any particular scheme, and that they intend to secure the wisdom of the House as to what should be done. I want to ask my right hon. and learned Friend whether that is the case. If no decision is to be put before the House and their acquiescence to it asked for on the next Sitting Day, am I then right in presuming that, that being the case, there will be a further opportunity for the House to give its decision upon the scheme, whatever it may be, upon which the Government decide as a result of the conference which they will have with the House? I want to ask for a definite undertaking that in the Debate the Government will not put forward a scheme, and then carry it into effect without securing the assent of the House.

I am afraid I must ask my hon. Friend to wait until a statement is made by the President of the Board of Trade in the Debate with regard to that matter.

Surely this matter requires more clarification. It appears to me that my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne) is raising a point of substance. This is a matter for the House itself. No discourtesy is intended to my right hon. and learned Friend opposite or to the President of the Board of Trade, nor is there any desire to embarrass the President of the Board of Trade, but merely a desire to be helpful and, of course, to assist the House in coming to a conclusion on this matter. The point is this. If on the next Sitting Day we merely discuss the principle, then on the assumption that the House accepts the principle underlying the rationing of fuel, as no doubt may be the case, what follows from that? Does the President of the Board of Trade present a scheme at a later date for the consent or otherwise of the House; does it come before the House in the form of an Order in Council which permits of discussion, or are we to understand that once this House accepts the principle of fuel rationing, the President of the Board of Trade can then proceed with a scheme which becomes a fait accompli and the House cannot do more than merely ask questions upon it?

It is for the President of the Board of Trade to decide what procedure he intends. I cannot answer without consultation with my right hon. Friend. I have had no notice of this Question, and I am unable to say anything precisely to-day, but the President of the Board of Trade will deal with it in the Debate.

May I remind the Leader of the House and I asked that before any scheme was put into operation this House should have a chance to discuss it? Are we not entitled, in the light of the promise which was then made, to have the scheme before the House in some form or another so that we may know what we are discussing?

Nobody desires less than myself to embarrass my right hon. and learned Friend, but I would remind him that this matter was raised yesterday, and I think he has had ample notice that the House would like to know what is to be the procedure. Are we in any discussion which takes place on the next Sitting Day to come to a final decision on this matter or not? If it is not to be a final decision, then there is no need for any question of opposing the matter. It will be a matter for general discussion, and the Government will then bring forward something based on the advice which they may receive from the House. On the other hand, if the Government do not give an undertaking to bring forward the final scheme, then, as I see it, the House is being unfairly treated in not being told whether the forthcoming discussion is to have any finality or not.

May I press for a definite assurance from the Government that before any scheme is put into force, the House will have an opportunity of giving its full opinion on the scheme itself and not on the matter of principle alone? May I enforce that view? The country has accepted a great many schemes of different kinds, and the country will go on with them, but, in this case, I feel sure that the House ought to have some definite say in the matter.

Surely the House has had a definite pledge, given on behalf of the Government, that no scheme will be put into force until the House has had the opportunity of expressing its opinion upon it. That does not require a statement from the President of the Board of Trade. It merely involves repeating a pledge which, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) has indicated, has already been given to the House.

As I think my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade pointed out, the object was to have an exploratory Debate and to get the assistance of the House on the basis of a possible scheme which has been put forward in the White Paper. I am not aware what precise steps my right hon. Friend contemplates taking in the Debate. I have asked him to deal with that question in his speech on that occasion and I imagine that that would be a satisfactory time to do so. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am unable to give the House any further answer without consultation with my right hon. Friend, and, as I say, I had no notice that this matter would be raised to-day.

How can the House come to a decision on a matter which is in the air? Nobody knows what it is. No one has a good thing to say about the White Paper, and how can we discuss a thing which is not put on the Table and laid before the House to decide?

As the President of the Board of Trade is present, cannot he give an answer now?

I am afraid the hon. Member has made a mistake as to who is the President of the Board of Trade.

I hope my right hon. and learned Friend will reply to the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison). Has such a pledge as he referred to been given or not? I know of no such pledge.

Surely the House was informed that a scheme would not be put into force until such scheme had been submitted to the House?

No such pledge was given. What was said by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade was that it was not intended to put the Beveridge scheme into force until there had been a Debate in this House.

MARRIAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords]

Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day.

Orders of the Day

Supply

[5TH ALLOTTED DAY.]

Considered in Committee.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

Civil Estimates, 1942

Class X

Ministry of Aircraft Production

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £90, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1943, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Aircraft Production."—[Note.—£10 has been voted on account .]

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[ Mr. James Stuart .]

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.

Secret Session

Notice taken, that Strangers were present .

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No . 89, put the Question, "That Strangers be ordered to withdraw."

Question agreed to.

Strangers withdrew accordingly .

[ The remainder of the Sitting was in Secret Session .]