asked the Minister of Labour how many men and women, respectively, have registered a conscientious objection to military service in the present war; and what was the number of men to register in the war of 1914–18?

asked the Minister of Labour how many persons claimed, and how many were granted, exemption from military service on the grounds of conscience during the years 1914 to 1918, and during this war to date?

I have only approximate figures for 1914–1918, when about 16,000 men claimed to be conscientious objectors and about 6,000 were refused exemption from military service. During this war between 63,000 and 64,000 men have applied to be registered as conscientious objectors and up to 6th June last tribunals had registered 26,123 of them as conscientious objectors either unconditionally or on condition that they undertook specified civil work and 13,221 others as liable for non-combatant service. Of the women in the age groups being called up under the National Service Acts, 1,714 have applied to be registered as conscientious objectors and up to 6th June last 83 had been registered either conditionally or unconditionally.

Can the Minister account for the enormous increase in the number of people registering as conscientious objectors? Does he not think that generally things are made too easy for them?

I do not think there is any real comparison that can be made between this war and the last war. In the early days of the last war, recruiting was voluntary. The figures I have given for this war cover a period in which compulsion started even before the war. Therefore, the comparison is rather odious. I am quite convinced that the methods and tolerance displayed in this country during this war with regard to this problem have created a very favourable opinion of us all over the world and have been of great benefit.

Is the Minister aware that there is a number of societies which encourage so-called conscientious objectors to avoid military service?

I think the tribunals are well aware of the facts concerning those who go before them.

Can the Minister give the percentage of conscientious objectors in the last war and the percentage in this war?

No, I cannot.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider introducing legislation to prohibit the Central Board for Conscientious Objectors or any other body or individual from encouraging any person to claim exemption from military service on the grounds of conscience, or from aiding that person in the preparation of his case for exemption?

No, Sir. It is already an offence under Defence Regulation 39A to incite any person to evade service under the National Service Acts.

Is the Minister aware that some of these societies are definitely subversive and that some have been encouraging persons to evade military service and helping them to prepare their case for hearing before the tribunal? Is not a man's conscience his own affair, which cannot be explained by anybody other than himself?

Any person with a conscience should have the right to clarify that conscience when presenting his case to a tribunal.

How can you clarify your conscience by proxy?

I understand that the legal profession make a great fortune out of it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will take steps, in conjunction with county and town police authorities, to ensure uniformity of treatment as regards men called up for the Army in respect of balance of civil pay and retention by wives and families of police houses unless the houses are required for police purposes, respectively?

I believe that most police authorities make an allowance to supplement Service pay, but the matter is, by law, one for their discretion and I have no power to require uniformity of treatment. The occupation of police houses is also a matter for local arrangement and I have no doubt that, so far as the requirements of the police service permit, sympathetic consideration is given to the wishes of the wives and families of men who are serving with the Armed Forces.

Short of possessing powers at the Home Office to ensure that uniformity, is it not possible for the Minister to exercise some influence on local government authorities to ensure that we avoid the present anomalies, which are giving rise to a good deal of discontent?

I think that if the House leaves the local authorities with discretionary powers, the Minister cannot very well coerce them, but I understand that this matter will shortly be considered by the Police Federation, and I shall be prepared to consider whether I can usefully take any action in the light of any representations which the Federation may make.

asked the Home Secretary how many societies, such as the Peace Pledge Union, are actively assisting opposition to military service?

If my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind assistance given to conscientious objectors in preparing and presenting their cases to the tribunals, I am not in a position to give a list of the pacifist or religious bodies which may interest themselves in this matter. If, however, he has any information to suggest that activities are being carried on in contravention of the provisions of Defence Regulation 39A, relating to endeavours to incite persons to evade their duties or liabilities under the National Service Acts, I shall be glad to receive such information and to look into the matter.

Is it not true that a number of societies, including the Peace Pledge Union, are actively assisting conscientious objectors to evade their duty to their country? Does the Minister not consider that these societies do far more harm to the war effort than any of the many ex-Service men who are interned in the Isle of Man would be likely to do if released?

I think my hon. and gallant Friend is unwise to mix up two things. I cannot do that. As my predecessor indicated in answer to a somewhat similar Question, we do not regard it as illegal to give advice on the law and on technical points at the proceedings of these tribunals, and I do not think we should be justified in interfering on those grounds. The doubt is whether they are really discouraging people from undertaking military service, and, if there is any evidence of that, I shall be glad to look into it.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that the Peace Pledge Union do not touch the problem until a person has declared he is a conscientious objector?

As sabotaging of machinery is subject to great penalties, does not the Minister think that attempts to sabotage man-power should be met by equivalent penalties?

Certainly, that is the evidence for which I am asking, and, if there is any evidence, I shall be glad to look into it.

Will not the Home Office make inquiries and produce the evidence required?

I get all sorts of accusations about the quasi-judicial procedure at the Home Office, and I think my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion is rather abnormal; it might open me to charges from other quarters.

asked the Home Secretary what progress is being made in developing schemes of munitions work for Civil Defence personnel whilst on duty?

As the answer is rather long, I will, with Mr. Speaker's permission, make a statement at the end of Questions.

Subject to the maintenance of the efficiency of the Civil Defence services by such training and exercises as are necessary, to the prior claims of other essential work connected with these services, and to the suitability of the premises, I should welcome any opportunity for men and women on duty in fire stations and other Civil Defence depots to take a more direct part in war production.

I am advised by the Supply Departments, however, that in. view of the demands upon machinery and supervisory staff and the need to ensure the most economical use of materials and transport, the field of such opportunity is necessarily limited. Generally speaking, the work will have to be in the nature of sub-contracting, and experience so far gained of the informal arrangements which have come to notice points to the need of some standardised system of control of price to secure that no firm using this method of sub-contracting shall gain any advantage from the use of Civil Defence personnel. I am in consultation with the Supply Departments in the matter.

I have been led to the conclusion that no individual additional payment should be made to men and women who volunteer to undertake this work. Apart from the known desire of many members of the services to make a voluntary contribution to productive industry in the national interest—indeed one trade union catering for Civil Defence personnel has conducted a campaign in favour of productive work at the depots—the difficulties of fixing a fair basis of pay for those who are already receiving remuneration for full-time service are well-nigh insuperable. The limited amount of work that can be given out varies in type according to the districts, the physical facilities at each depot, the numbers on duty and the amount of time that each could give to the work. Anything corresponding to uniform workshop production and conditions is, therefore, out of the question. The payment of additional remuneration to those members of the services who are fortuitously in a position to offer to undertake productive work during a part of their duty hours and the withholding of additional payment from those who for good reasons have no opportunity to do so, would create inequalities of pay and would be bound to give rise to discontent. I am, however, considering whether an appropriase part of the contractors' payment for the work done could indirectly be made available for the collective benefit of members of the services.

Owing to the scarcity of labour in municipal offices, would it not be possible to utilise some of the labour in the depots nearest to those offices, perhaps only temporarily, and so assist the municipalities to carry out their duties?

My hon. Friend will find that that possibility is provided for in the circular which I have addressed to local authorities.

Is the Minister aware that many men in Civil Defence services will be bitterly disappointed unless he can expedite the arrangement by which they are enabled, in or near Civil Defence premises, to take part in production?

I am very anxious to do all I can. The problem is one for solution by the Supply Departments. Very great difficulties face them. They might detach units of production in a way which might lead to a net reduction of production rather than an increase, but I am sure they will do all they can, and my hon. Friend may be sure that I will also.

asked the Home Secretary whether in the case of ministers of religion in Britain taking duty in Northern Ireland or vice versa, he will lower the period of three months' duty for the granting of a. travel permit to one month to facilitate the exchange of ministers within the United Kingdom?

It is necessary to limit travel between Great Britain and Ireland as far as possible, and I regret that I should not feel justified in authorising the grant of travel permits to enable clergymen to travel to either country for the purpose of taking up appointments for periods of less than three months.

Does not my right hon. Friend consider that a free exchange of ministers of religion between Great Britain and Northern Ireland would encourage people and help the war effort?

I am not quite sure about it. Frankly, I do not think this is one of the most pressing claims for a concession on this particular restriction.

asked the Home Secretary whether, in order to obviate cases of hardship and to allow for a period of needed recuperation for teachers and students, he will make arrangements whereby all Northern Ireland teachers and students in Britain will receive travel permits to enable them to spend their summer holidays at home with their friends in Northern Ireland?

If for security purposes there is to be control over this traffic, there must be a limit on the number of journeys which individuals are allowed to make; and the fact that a particular class of persons may get several holidays in a year is not a ground on which I should be justified in granting them permits for extra journeys beyond those allowed under the general rules.

Does not my right hon. Friend consider that it would be in the interests of education in Great Britain and in the interests of the health of these persons if they were allowed to spend the long summer holidays at home instead of paying for lodgings when they ought to be at home?

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that these devoted teachers have come over to this country in order to enable you to keep your schools open and carry on your educational system? Does not that demand kindly consideration and even indulgence?

I am not sufficiently confident about the motives of the teachers to be able to judge of that matter. I am very sorry about the inconvenience this must cause, but there is a war on, and there must be restrictions on travel. I am afraid I cannot make any concession at this time.

asked the Home Secretary whether he will repeal the new regulations in the National Fire Service involving different shifts and different time off, as they have met with so much opposition?

No new regulations have been issued, but I have informed the representatives of the trade unions concerned that I propose to institute a standard system of duty in the National Fire Service as soon as practicable. I have fully considered the whole question, including the objections which have been raised, but I have come to the conclusion that it is necessary to adopt the proposed duty system which is already in force over a large part of the country, on operational considerations which must be paramount.

Will the Minister receive a deputation on this matter?

We are in frequent consultation with the Trades Union Joint Consultative Committee, of which the Fire Brigade Union are a part, and it is always open to them to make representations.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will consult with the Minister of Labour with a view to deferring the calling-up of a small percentage of university students who have shown exceptional talent and whose retention for a further year is specially recommended by the university authorities?

My right hon. Friend has throughout been in consultation with my right hon. Friend he Minister of Labour and National Service and is satisfied that suitable arrangements have been made with regard to the deferment of the calling-up of students at universities.

Is my hon. Friend aware that deferment is granted only in cases where students are engaged upon work which will in some way benefit the war effort, and that no deferment is granted on purely scholastic grounds?

The deferment of calling-up university students is not my right hon. Friend's direct responsibility, and I suggest that any further questions on the subject should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service.

asked the President of the Board of Education how many different versions of agreed syllabuses of religious instruction are in use by education committees; what attempt has been made to correlate or co-ordinate these whether any suggested syllabus of ethical instruction of a religious nature has been considered apart from the agreed syllabuses; what official committee is considering the need and nature of ethical instruction, who are its members; and whether, in his proposals, he will provide for the full progressive appreciation of ethical principles and democratic ideals and for preparation for this in the training colleges?

The Board have no record of the number of agreed syllabuses in use by local education authorities. The answers to the second, third and fourth parts of the Question are in the negative. In reply to the last part, while it is not the Board's practice to prescribe the content or methods of school instruction, their Handbook of Suggestions for Teachers emphasises the importance of fostering the progressive appreciation of ethical principles and democratic ideals. The part which the training colleges should play in this matter will no doubt be considered by the Committee my right hon. Friend has appointed to review the recruitment and training of teachers.

In view of the undoubted importance of the whole question of ethical and religious training, would it not be advisable to secure copies of these various agreed syllabuses now in operation in the country, and will the Committee which has been established give this point its most serious consideration?

With regard to the second part of the question, I have no doubt that the Committee on the recruitment and training of teachers will devote the appropriate amount of time to consider this, matter. With regard to the first part of the question, we are at present endeavouring to cut down as much as possible all unnecessary requirements by way of returns from local education authorities.

Has my hon. Friend's attention been called to the religious syllabus of Northern Ireland, agreed to by the Church of Ireland and the Presbyterian and Methodist Churches, which has given universal satisfaction?

I have seen a copy of that syllabus; but I am an Englishman, and I like to have my religion made at home.

To which denomination does my hon. Friend belong?

Not to that of my hon. Friend.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether the terms of reference-of the Departmental Committee on public schools will permit the Committee to consider the future position of independent boarding schools not conducted for private profit which do not have membership in the Headmasters' Conference or in the Governing Bodies Association; and, if not, whether he will consider an enlargement of the terms of reference to allow for this?

The terms of reference, as announced, were calculated to define the meaning of the term "Public School" for the purposes of the inquiry. But the Committee will not be precluded from considering the circumstances of schools outside their purview in so far as they may be relevant to the subject of their inquiry.

Will the inquiry include preparatory boarding schools?

That is covered in the last few words of my answer.

May I take it that the inquiry will include experimental boarding schools, schools connected with various denominations, co-educational schools and others?

Yes, Sir, in so far as they are relevant to the general subject matter of the inquiry.

Why is it that the list is, for the most part, confined to schools patronised by the wealthy, and that many other very good schools are put in a lower category?

I am by no means sure that the category is lower.

asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the present shortage of nurses and the special value of the profession, he will take further steps to improve the status of the nursing services throughout the country?

I have taken various steps which will, I hope, help to secure for the nurse a more general recognition of her importance and proper status. If my hon. Friend will let me know what further steps he has in mind, I will gladly consider them.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware of the magnificent service rendered by the nursing services, both past and present, and is he not further aware of the very meagre recognition they have had? Will he take steps really to improve their position, which is not very good at the present time?

I think my hon. Friend must have been so busy on other things that he is not aware of the fact that in April, 1941, we set up a special Nursing. Division in the Ministry, to the great gratification of all. We take every opportunity to impress on the public the importance of nursing. As far as improvement in salaries and conditions is concerned, I have set up a Committee under Lord Rushcliffe, and that Committee' is at this moment reviewing the conditions, salaries and emoluments of the nursing service. Furthermore, nursing is recognised as vital war work by the Minister of Labour and National Service. I think my hon. Friend must have overlooked all this.

Can the Minister tell us what the. Committee have achieved, because nothing has been done as yet? Is he aware that I have plenty of time to deal with things which really matter, and I have gone into this very fully indeed?

If the hon. Member has any evidence of a practical character, Lord Rushcliffe's Committee will be glad to have it.

Is it not a fact that nurses are overworked and underpaid?

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that, however many committees he sets up, while he allows young nurses to be paid £40 a year he will never solve this problem?

The hon. Lady knows that that is not quite a fair question. As far as my administrative power is concerned, within two months of my coming to the Ministry steps were taken to improve the conditions of the Civil Nursing Reserve. This Committee was set up for the specific purpose of carrying out what the whole country would desire, a proper recognition of the value of this great service.

It is a scandal of the first magnitude.

asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the great shortage, especially in reception areas, of nurses trained to deal with maternity cases, he will enrol a mobile squad of nurses who will be willing to go, when required, to areas where they are most needed?

The need for relating provision for maternity cases to movements of population has been recognised and the supply of midwives in reception areas has been increased both by transfer and by arrangements for recall to, practice. My information is that the deficiency is rather in the total number of midwives available than in maldistribution and I do not think, therefore, that the suggestion of a mobile squad would assist.

In Cheltenham the shortage is particularly acute. What is the objection to adopting this obvious and valuable suggestion?

I should not care to argue that now, but I shall be pleased to look at the particular case of Cheltenham if the hon. Member will give me the facts concerned.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that persons suffering loss and damage through illness traceable to infected milk unfit for human consumption have a right of action against vendors of such milk; and whether, as the financial circumstances of poorer citizens prevent their taking such action, the local authorities in such cases make ex gratia payments?

I am aware that in certain circumstances there may be such a right of action as is referred to in the first part of the Question; I am not aware that local authorities make such payments as are referred to in the second part of the Question.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider that the local authorities ought to have power to recoup sufferers in their areas?

It is not quite as simple as that. In the absence of negligence by the vendor there is not a right of action in every case. I refer the hon. Gentleman to the judgment of the Court of Appeal in Square v. Model Farm Dairies (Bournemouth) Ltd., which he will find in 55 "Times" Law Report, page 384.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that, unless he presses for an amendment of the national milk scheme, which comes into operation in September, and arranges for the purification of all milk, the Government will be morally responsible for the dissemination of tuberculosis?

The hon. Lady knows that everything is being done that is practicable in view of war conditions.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the rise of dangerous milk for human consumption supplied to Newcastle-on-Tyne citizens as undesignated milk for the years 1939, 1940 and 1941, shown from 758, 738 and 571 samples, respectively, with unsatisfactory percentages of 24.6, 30.4 and 38.7 and that daily bacterio-logical examinations would reveal some 75 per cent. of such milk unsatisfactory; and whether it is intended to use such data as the above in the campaign for the better health of the nation?

I am aware of figures for 1939 and 1940, but I cannot trace the receipt of figures for 1941. I understand that these figures show the proportion of milk found unsatisfactory according to the cleanliness tests prescribed for designated milks. Such results serve to emphasise the need for the measures included in the recent White Paper on Milk Policy, and I trust that these, in conjunction with the work of local authorities, will contribute to improving the position.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the corollary of this question is the erection of plant for pasteurising this milk instead of poisoning the citizens?

We have to work inside the limits of what is practicable now.

Has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten that there were 13,000 notifications of non-pulmonary tuberculosis last year?

I have not forgotten it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I will persist in these questions until satisfaction is obtained?

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he will place at the disposal of Members of Parliament the report with regard to India, of Dr. Grady, economic adviser to Mr. Roosevelt, a copy of which report was presented to the Viceroy?

A summary, prepared by the Government of India, of the preliminary report of the American Technical Mission which was presided over by Dr. Grady is being placed in the Library. The report itself is not being published, but the summary presents a faithful picture of the recommendations.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has any information respecting the arrest of Bishwanath Das, former Premier of Orissa; what is the charge against him; and when he is likely to be brought to trial?

I have seen a report in the Press that Bishwanath Das was arrested recently in connection with a speech made by him. I have no official information regarding the arrest which has, I presume, been effected by the Provincial Government in the discharge of its responsibilities for the maintenance of law and order.

Is my right hon. Friend making inquiries so that Members of the House may have information with regard to this incident?

I prefer to enlist the hon. Member's consistent support for the principle of Indian self-government.

Is my Question inconsistent with such support?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will assume responsibility for the payment of interest on Federated Malay States and Straits Settlements War Loans, in view of the fact that the entire proceeds of these loans were placed at the disposal of His Majesty's Government for the prosecution of the war?

This matter is receiving the most urgent consideration, and I hope very shortly to be able to make a statement. I will communicate with my hon. and gallant Friend and will ask him to put down another Question.

When considering this question, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this is the first time in history a Crown Colony has defaulted?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total annual cost to the State in using the Bank of England as a means of monetary exchange; and whether, as a better and more economical method, he will take over and control the whole banking system in the country.

I am not clear what precise services of the Bank of England my hon. Friend is referring to in the first part of his Question. I assume he is aware that the profits of the Note Issue, now very substantial, enure to the Treasury. The answer to the second part of his Question is in the negative.

Do not we deal with the Bank of England when we want some credit, and does it not cost some money to get it? Surely we are entitled to know a little more about transactions between the Government and the Bank of England? Are they secret?

I was not clear what my hon. Friend had in mind, and I will examine it and see whether I can give him some further information.

Can we have an assurance that it is no part of the policy of the Government to deal with established institutions?

If I put a Question down, will the right hon. Gentleman give me an answer?

Perhaps my hon. Friend will allow me to communicate with him.

Is it not a fact that under the Currency and Banknote Act, 1928, the whole of the profits of the Issue Department of the Bank of England are paid into the Exchequer?

I ventured to refer to that in my answer.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether a deduction of Income Tax is allowed, in respect of an evacuated child, to a parent who makes no contribution to the child's maintenance?

Yes, Sir.

Could not the tax saved be applied to the cost of billeting?

No, Sir, the provisions of the Income Tax law under which a child allowance is granted do not provide for that.

Is not this really a most unreasonable position from the point of view of the general taxpayer?

No, Sir, and that is the position under the law.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the provisions of food or refreshments by the occupiers of business premises coming within the terms of the Fire Prevention (Business Premises) No. 2 Order, 1941, debars the fireguards concerned from obtaining relief from Income Tax in respect of the standard subsistence allowances paid to them under that Order?

The general question of the taxation treatment of cash payments to fireguards, including allowances in respect of extra expenses necessarily incurred through doing duty as such outside working hours, was dealt with in my reply of 16th October last, of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy. The position in a case where subsistence is provided in kind and a cash payment is made depends upon the facts of the particular case, and if my hon. Friend will give me full details of any case he may have in mind, I shall be glad to make inquiries.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that a letter from a town clerk applying for a permit for chestnut fencing for the purpose of enclosing allotments was passed through eight different offices; was answered by the Ministry of Health, after nearly seven weeks, advising that it should be sent back to the Ministry of Agriculture to whom it had been originally addressed; and,

I am looking into the particular case to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, and will communicate with him as soon as possible. The importance of speedy decisions by Departments is fully appreciated, and I am sending to my hon. and gallant Friend a copy of instructions issued to all Departments on the avoidance of delays.

Does not my right hon. Friend realise that the actions of these inefficient hordes of officials are destroying the soul of the nation and doing a great deal of harm to the war effort?