asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that female civilian clerks employed at Ordnance Depôts are being called up from that work under the National Service Acts, although Royal Army Ordnance Corps soldiers and Auxiliary Territorial Service personnel are doing precisely the same work in the same depôts; that the civilian girls, when called up, are being sent to other static establishments as Auxiliary Territorial Service personnel, being replaced in the original establishments by Auxiliary Territorial Service personnel or by untrained mobile civilians transferred from other work; and whether he will stop this waste of trained women-power?

The calling up of female civilian clerks in ordnance depôts is in accordance with the arrangement made for the Civil Service generally. This arrangement provides for the release of a proportion of women in the younger age groups with the provision, where necessary, of suitable civilian replacements. I understand that it is not the practice to post Auxiliary Territorial Service personnel to Ordnance depots as substitutes for civilians. They are used to replace soldiers, to provide additional staff where no civilian clerks are available, and to ensure mobility and flexibility in the event of an emergency. I am not aware that untrained mobile civilians have been placed as substitutes, in these depots. If the hon. Member will send me details, I will make inquiries.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that young men employed on important war work, for over 72 hours per week, are being directed to join the Home Guard; whether he has considered the effect of this extra work on their health and will he alter the policy of his Department in this respect?

No, Sir. If my hon. Friend is aware of any such cases and will communicate with me, I will have then investigated.

If there are cases of young men of 19 doing important work—I have sent particulars to the Minister—will the right hon. Gentleman give instructions that they shall not be asked to take up Home Guard duties, which would result in their doing their own job inefficiently?

I would like to look at all the aspects of the question. If young men of this age are working 72 hours a week, it may be that their working hours are much too long.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that where men are doing 72 hours a week the Home Guard authorities are entitled to demand a further 12 hours a week training, and that as many of these men live considerable distances from their work and have to travel to and fro, it is placing upon them an absolutely intolerable burden?

I have issued an advice—not an order, because it is difficult to apply in all cases—advising employers not to work people beyond 56 hours a week. Managements ought to co-operate, because the Home Guard is essential in case of danger.

Do the Government realise the strain on elderly Members of this House belonging to the Home Guard?

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has now made his inquiries into the strike in the Tyneside shipyards; and whether he has any statement to make as a result?

I have completed inquiries and have communicated with the representative body of the workers concerned. I do not think that any further action is necessary.

Does the Minister intend to make any statement to the workers as a result of his inquiries?

The dispute arose in connection with the unions responsible. I have communicated the result of the investigation to the parties, and they must deal with their members.

Do I understand-that this strike was against the orders of the leaders?

It was without their consent.

Does the Minister think it is a fair way to treat these men to consent to the transfer of tens of thousands of pounds in workers' wages into the employers' banking account? Has he nothing to say to the men on that subject?

This dispute arose out of an agreement made legitimately and properly between the unions and employers. If a dispute arises, I communicate with the parties concerned with the agreement. That is the only possible way the Ministry can act.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is now in a position to say how many men under 30 years of age are employed in all branches of his Department?

On 20th October the number of men between 18 and 30 years of age employed in my Department was 825. Of these, 188 (some of them only recently registered) are awaiting call up; 203 have served in H.M. Forces in the present war and have been discharged; and 303 are either not legally liable to be called up or are in medical categories III and IV from which men are not being called up. Of the balance of 131, 122 are Factory Inspectors or others with technical or specialised qualifications, mainly instructors at the Training Centres. Of the remaining 9, two are postponed on compassionate grounds leaving 7 in low categories not fit for combatant service to whom deferment has been granted on the recommendation of the Kennet Committee.

While thanking the Minister for his very satisfactory figures, may I ask whether the men discharged from the Services were discharged for, health reasons?

Yes, Sir, they were all discharged for health reasons.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can make any statement as to the extent to which aged, infirm and sick persons are being allowed to retain the services of at least one maid?

The effect of current arrangements under the Registration for Employment Order and National Service Acts would be to postpone the calling up or withdrawal of the one domestic servant in such a household if there were no other able-bodied person available.

Is it not a fact that in many districts this is not actually taking place and that people are being left without their only retainer?

The basis is in the latter part of any answer, namely, "in such a household if there were no other able-bodied person available."

asked the Minister of Labour what steps were taken by his Department to survey the local position before assuring the President of the Board of Trade that, in the event of Messrs. Scott & Fife's weaving mill in Tayport being closed down there would be no difficulty for the workers so displaced in obtaining employment locally or in the near vicinity of Tayport; what alternative work he has designated for them, and where?

The plans for the reconcentration of the jute industry, of which the proposal to close this mill is part, were considered carefully by my Department in consultation with the Board of Trade. The selection of this mill for closing was made on production grounds; but after local inquiry by my Regional officers I informed my right hon. Friend that apart from those going into His Majesty's Forces, no difficulty was anticipated in placing the remainder in employment locally or in the near vicinity. Thus employment would be in Tayport itself or in Cupar and at a later stage in Dundee. In regard to the last named, it may be necessary to make certain temporary arrangements for the workpeople concerned until local employment becomes available.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that information in Tayport is to the effect that employment will not be found for these people? Will he make careful inquiries into that position?

I will look into it.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the condition that entrants for the Engineering Cadet Corps must hold a school certificate renders ineligible boys who have chosen a technical education and entered the engineering industry at the usual age of 15; and whether he will make the entrance examination open to all boys who desire to make application, whether their education be elementary or secondary?

I have decided that in order to be eligible a boy need not have taken the school certificate, provided that he has reached the necessary standard of knowledge of mathematics or general science or physics. The scheme does not cover boys already employed in engineering because its object is to reduce the demands of the Services upon the personnel of the industry; boys who become qualified for technical commissions while employed in the engineering industry have an opportunity to obtain such commissions.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the decision of the Court of Appeal on the 19th instant in the case of Docker v. Standard Telephones and Cables, Limited, the effect of which is that workers in scheduled undertakings for the purpose of the Essential Work (General Provisions) Order, who successfully appeal against dismissal and are reinstated in their employment, are not entitled to wages for toe period between the date of their dismissal and that of their reinstatement; that this involves great hardship on workers and tends to render nugatory the right of appeal; and whether he will amend the Order so as to require employers to pay wages during the period in question?

I have already amended the Essential Work (General Provisions) Order, to provide that where a worker has been dismissed from a scheduled undertaking for serious misconduct and his reinstatement is subsequently directed by the National Service officer, the worker shall, if otherwise qualified, be entitled to his guaranteed wage from the date of dismissal until he is reinstated. In the case to which the hon. Member refers, of which I have seen a report in the Press, the worker was not dismissed for serious misconduct but was discharged with the permission of the National Service officer. I do not think I could properly require employers to pay wages between discharge and reinstatement in cases where permission to discharge had been duly obtained.

Does this ruling apply to people discharged from Government employment?

It is exactly the same if they are employed on productive work.

Would it apply in the case where a man succeeded on appeal and the Government Department declined to accept the direction of the Ministry of Labour?

Does it apply also to the mining industry?

In the case of the mining industry there are some deviations from the general Order, and I cannot reply to my hon. Friend without notice.

Will the Amendment to the Order apply retrospectively?

The Order was made a long while ago.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the case of a workman, whose name has been supplied to him, directed from employment as engineer storekeeper with a firm in Croydon exclusively engaged on war-work, wages £5 15s. a week, to work of a lower grade with a Royal Air Force maintenance unit, wages £3 15s. per week, that he and a number of others spent the night in an unheated hall; whether he will state his wage policy in the matter of directing labour; and whether steps will in future be taken to ensure that appropriate arrangements for-billeting will be made in such cases?

I am having inquiries made into this case and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as these are completed.

Will the Minister deal also with the question of principle?

I will look into that.

Will the inquiries cover only the matter mentioned in the last part of the Question, or will they cover also the difference in wages?

They will cover both points, but I would remind the hon. Gentleman that it was this House which laid down in an Act that the transfer had to be at the rate for the job.

Will the Minister also have inquiries made into the cases to which I have drawn his attention?

Certainly.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that many blind persons, anxious to participate in the war effort, are debarred from fitting themselves to do so as it would involve the loss of their disability pension when the present urgent need for their services is ended; and what steps it is proposed to take to enable the services of these blind persons to be utilised in the war effort?

Sickness and disablement benefits under the National Health Insurance Acts are payable if and so long as the claimant satisfies his approved society that he is rendered incapable of work by some specific disease or bodily or mental disablement. It follows that the blind persons to whom my hon. and gallant Friend refers can only become entitled to these benefits after they cease to be employed if they can then satisfy their societies that they are incapable of work.

Will the Minister consider transferring these cases from the approved societies to the Post Office scheme, so that blind persons would be able to resume their disability pensions after concluding their war work?

My right hon. Friend would not have any power to do that, and I think I have made it plain in the answer that if they are incapable of work they will then get a pension.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he will consider increasing Indian representation on his Advisory Committee?

Of my eight Advisers three are Indians. Perhaps my honourable Friend is not aware that by Statute at least half must have completed, not more than two years before their appointment, at least 10 years' service under the Crown in India; and their selection is made, naturally, with regard to the nature of such service.

Would it not be possible to alter the Statute?

asked the Secretary of State for India whether correspondence from private persons in this country can be sent and delivered to Indian leaders now detained; whether those leaders are or will be permitted to communicate with private persons in this country and whether they will be permitted to make any public declaration?

I understand that the detained Indian leaders are permitted to correspond only with members of their families and then only on domestic matters. I cannot say when the present restrictions will be relaxed. Whether any public declaration by the leaders could be permitted would presumably depend on its character.

Would it be possible for Members of the House to communicate with the Indian leaders either after submission to my right hon. Friend or through him?

That is covered by my answer. The matter is in the discretion of the Government of India.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see if it is possible?

asked the Secretary of State for India for what reason it is not permitted to send cigarettes duty free to members of the Services serving in India?

When an arrangement was introduced in 1940 to permit of small parcels of duty-free tobacco, cigars or cigarettes being sent by post to members of His Majesty's Forces abroad, it was decided that this arrangement should not be applied to soldiers serving in India, as such parcels would be subject to local customs duty on arrival, and pipe-tobacco and cigarettes suitable to European tastes are plentiful in most parts of India, of good quality, and still no more expensive than before the war here. The Government of India have, however, been asked to consider the question further and I am awaiting their reply.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can make a statement as to the present policy of his Department in regard to the enrolment of enemy aliens for fire-watching purposes?

Aliens of enemy nationality are permitted to undertake fire-guard duties as volunteers in suitable cases. They are not subject to the compulsory provisions in the Fire Prevention Orders.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the very great danger involved, and will he also recollect the frightful examples in the Low Countries of persons who were believed to be perfectly friendly but who, when the Germans marched in, were found to be very much otherwise?

That point is always kept in mind. Indeed, I have been criticised for keeping it too much in mind.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm the fact that there are very few enemy aliens loose in this country, and that those who are loose have been passed through a hair sieve?

I think that is much too wide a generalisation.

asked the Home Secretary on what grounds he proposes to prohibit one person, after doing his own fire-watching duties, voluntarily relieving another?

I am not proposing to institute any such prohibition, but to check abuse I propose in the forthcoming Order to include a provision establishing a record of substitutes which will be open to inspection by the local authority or the appropriate authority for the premises.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the effect on production of the additional strain of fire-watching on people who have given the maximum output for two, three or four years, increased by the geographical situation of many establishments, causing workpeople to travel two and three hours a day in addition to their working hours; that in one area men and women who leave home at 6.30 a.m. and return at 8 p.m. are being called upon to do fire-watching, including a lady working these hours with a child one year old; and if he will reconsider the policy as applied to the industrial workers and issue advice to the workpeople stating clearly their duties and rights?

I recognise that fire prevention is in a number of cases a burden on those concerned, but it is a duty which must be discharged by the people of this country to repel attacks by fire. There is a special provision in the Orders by which exemption may be granted to men regularly engaged on vital work for exceptionally long hours in industrial premises, and to women regularly engaged on work for exceptionally long hours. Any worker who considers his or her case is such that it would be an exceptional hardship to be required to perform fire prevention duties is entitled to apply to a tribunal for exemption. Any woman with a child of under 14 living with her is entirely exempt.

Has my right hon. Friend considered the advisability of issuing a circular setting out clearly the duties and rights of the workpeople?

Very clear advice has been issued as to their duties and equally clear advice as to their rights. Moreover, the trade union organisations represented on my Advisory Council have themselves issued very clear advice to their members. I do not think my hon. Friend need be under any misapprehension on the point.

asked the Home Secretary whether, as the positions of Regional Commissioners and their Deputies have now become unnecessary, their functions being now adequately performed by other branches of local and national organisations, he will consider abolishing these positions?

I am unable to accept the hon. Member's suggestion that Regional Commissioners and their Deputies have become unnecessary or that their functions are being adequately performed by other branches of local and national organisations.

The right hon. Gentleman knows better than I do, but can he tell me any functions performed by these men other than decorative?

I recently made a comprehensive speech about their functions, of which I shall be glad to send the hon. Member a copy, and, when he has read it, I think he will be quite convinced that I am right.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the West of Scotland the Deputy Commissioner has not given up any of his activities or the position that he occupied before becoming Deputy Commissioner, and that he has since that accepted a post in Glasgow and is continuing his own private business?

Scotland, as my hon. Friend knows, always involves exceptional considerations, and the organisation is somewhat different there, but I should not think in the case of a Deputy District Commissioner he would undertake duties inconsistent with the responsibilities that he owes to the Regional organisation.

They stopped travel vouchers for the workers as the result of the blitz, and we have had nothing but discontent on the Clyde as a result.

asked the Home Secretary whether he will undertake that the hours of duty in the National Fire Service shall not be increased to 48 on and 24 off, except where amenities and conditions justify the change?

Yes, Sir. I have repeatedly stated that instructions have been given that the standard duty system is not to be introduced, or, if introduced, is not to be maintained at any stations where the accommodation is seriously defective.

Is it not generally true that the people who have been working the 48 on and 24 off system prefer it and that the objection comes from those who have not tried it?

I think that that is true. Even in areas where there has been controversy the service have in a large proportion of cases come to like it after it has been experienced.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a deputation from Yorkshire came to the House and made definite statements and allegations concerning the absence of accommodation such as he has referred to?

Their remedy is perfectly simple, without coming from Yorkshire to London. Many deputations come to this House and make inaccurate observations to Members.

Will my right hon. Friend do his best to expedite the provision of certain amenities reaching fire stations?

I can assure my hon. Friend that I am very anxious to do that. Indeed, I have been visiting fire stations all over the country. We are in difficulties about materials and labour, but we are doing all we can. I am anxious that the men should co-operate by helping themselves to get the work done, and they are doing it.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is now in a position to make any statement in regard to the protection of emergency water tanks?

Yes, Sir. To make it more difficult for children to get themselves into danger, basins will, as soon as the work can be carried out, be surmounted by a ring of barbed wire fitted on stanchions. Where the walls of brick or masonry tanks have flat tops there will be added a pointed coping above which the ring of barbed wire will be placed. I hope these measures will be effective. Much direct damage has been done to static water tanks in many parts of the country, and moreover they have been used as dumps for rubbish, including much valuable salvage. A new Defence Regulation has, therefore, been made under which it is an offence to throw things into, or climb on, them, or to interfere with pipes, valves, etc. These water supplies are of first-rate importance to our war effort, and I should welcome the co-operation of all hon. Members in impressing upon the public the urgent importance of not interfering with them or in any way diminishing their usefulness.

Would it not be much simpler, as is the case in many parts of the country, to cover these receptacles with metal mesh?

We tried that experiment, but within an hour children were dancing on it, and one of them fell through.

Is it not very dangerous to have barbed wire round these tanks? In West Ham we have netting two feet round the outside walls, and there has been no injury.

I am glad to hear that that is the case in West Ham. We have thought carefully about this, and the Parliamentary Secretary has made an examination. We thought that barbed wire would be effective, and I should have thought that children would not wish to be mixed up with barbed wire; but here I am in a dilemma, for it is a choice between children tearing their clothes on the wire and getting drowned. I think that on the whole the first is the lesser risk to take.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether the Board has issued, or is prepared to issue, suggestions to teachers how best they can put before their pupils at an appropriate age the democratic ideals for which we are fighting and so prepare the children in our schools for their responsibilities as citizens?

The Board have emphasised repeatedly in the Handbook of Suggestions to Teachers and elsewhere the importance of inculcating in pupils a sense of their responsibility as citizens. They have information that a large number of schools are already giving regular training in various ways, and they are satisfied that the most appropriate method of imparting the instruction is a matter best left to the discretion of those responsible for the administration and teaching in the schools. I would also refer the hon. Member to a reply to a Question on 19th March, 1941, a copy of which I am sending him.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there are many different definitions of democratic ideals?

Is the right hon. Gentleman linking up this matter with the consideration he is giving to religious and ethical instruction in schools, as democracy is intimately linked up with these two principles?

Yes, Sir, I bear all these matters in mind.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction felt by the teaching profession at the failure of the Government to raise the pensions of retired teachers to compensate them for the rise in prices; and will he now consider doing this?

The general question of increasing teachers' pensions to compensate for the higher cost of living is part of a larger question affecting pensioners of all classes. I have nothing to add to what was said on this matter by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on the Motion for the Adjournment on 15th October last.

Is not the President himself taking this matter into consideration and making some representations on the subject?

I always do my best to look after the interests of teachers.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the suggestion of the Somerset County Council that in rural areas post-primary schools should have sufficient ground attached to have a garden and demonstration plots and that children should be encouraged to take an interest in livestock; whether he will do everything possible to encourage similar proposals throughout the country; and whether he will instruct local education authorities to give special consideration to applicants with a knowledge of agriculture and an interest in country life when appointing teachers in rural schools?

Yes, Sir. In the volume of Suggestions for Public Elementary School Planning issued by the Board in 1936 the suggestions of the Somerset County Council were anticipated, and during the war my Department has circulated to the schools a number of pamphlets on aspects of school gardening and the keeping of livestock such as poultry, rabbits and pigs. The Board have also continued, with the co-operation of Local Education Authorities, to hold teachers courses in rural subjects in different parts of the country. I have no reason to think that local education authorities are not fully alive to the importance of appointing to rural schools teachers with an interest in country life and pursuits.

asked the President of the Board of Education from how many elementary, central and secondary schools for which county or borough authorities are responsible the scholars are withdrawn periodically for religious instruction in another building; and whether this procedure has been under consideration during recent discussions or negotiations?

My Department has no records which would enable me to answer the first part of the Question. As regards the second part, the provisions of Section 13 of the Education Act, 1936, for the withdrawal of children from public elementary schools for religious instruction of a kind not given in the school have been considered in recent discussions in common with the other statutory provisions relating to religious instruction.

Has the President no record of instances covered by the first part of the Question which have occurred in Sussex and Surrey, and could he not at least make inquiries to see whether this practice has spread to other parts?

I have answered Questions put by the hon. Member on the subject of a case in Sussex. We know of that one, and we know, I think, of one or two other cases not exactly similar, but I have no complete record such as would satisfy the hon. Member's request.

Cannot this be left to the local education authorities?

No.

Yes.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that there is a shortage of operative man-power in this country and a surplus of people of administrative and executive experience, as a result of which the Appointments Board is now offering manual work to people of executive and administrative experience; and what steps he proposes to take in connection with the reform of our educational system to take account of this development?

I understand that the circumstances to which my hon. Friend refers are due to the fact that the intake into the Government service and war industries of persons with managerial, administrative and executive experience is not sufficient to offset the number of persons whose services in those capacities are no longer required as the result of the closure or curtailment of other industrial and commercial enterprises. The present situation is therefore largely due to war conditions. I am ready to take account of all relevant factors in considering the reform of the educational system.

Do I understand that answer to mean that' the nation uses more brains in peace-time than in war-time?

That is not my concern.