asked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the representations from the Council of the Magistrates' Association, stating that they are alarmed at the number of young women sent to prison for failing to comply with his directions and urging that such women should be psychologically examined before they are prosecuted; and what reply he has sent in response to those representations?

The present arrangements provide for such an examination to be undertaken where this seems desirable, and I am exploring the possibility of improving the present methods of identifying appropriate cases for special examination. A reply to this effect has been sent to the Magistrates' Association.

Does the Minister not think it time he reviewed the whole policy of his Department of prosecuting work-people for offences that were never punishable before the war commenced? Surely it does not achieve anything worth while for the State by prosecuting these people.

Is the Minister aware that there was a case in Bristol last week where a young girl of 18 was sent to prison for six months? Is not treatment of that kind shocking?

I never heard of the case.

asked the Minister of Labour how many persons are employed by his Department preparing cases and prosecuting persons for offences that were not punishable before the outbreak of war; and what is the annual cost involved in such prosecutions?

During the 12 months ending 31st August, 1943, an average number of 15 persons was employed in the Solicitor's Department of the Ministry in preparing for prosecution cases of the type mentioned in the Question. The conduct of the prosecutions was entrusted to solicitors or counsel who were paid by fee. The total annual cost was approximately £40,000, of which about £34,000 represented fees. In addition, officers in other Departments of the Ministry, both at headquarters and in outstations, were concerned in the preparation of these cases, but it would not be possible without excessive cost to ascertain the particulars relating to these persons asked for in the Question.

Do any of these gentlemen who are prosecuting members of the working classes in this way at any time go down the mines to work?

That does not arise out of this Question. The hon. Member asked a specific Question, and he has had the facts in the answer.

Is it not a fact that the only people who derive any profit from these proceedings are the lawyers?

Are the lawyers who prepare the cases instructed to find out whether the girl's attention has been drawn to the fact that she has the right of appeal against a direction?

The Department itself issues definite instructions as to that before any proceedings are taken at all.

asked the Minister of Labour whether a woman doctor has yet been added to his advisers in accordance with the Report on the Health and Welfare of Women in the Factories, of 17th December, 1942?

The Factory Inspectorate includes three women doctors. I do not think any addition is necessary at present.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has come to a decision regarding the pay of disabled ex-Service men while undergoing courses at a training centre?

Yes, Sir. An improved scale of allowances for disabled persons in training under the special scheme has been authorised and is now in force. The new scale provides for an allowance of 50s. per week to a single man and 60s. per week to a married man, with 4s. per week for each child under the age of 16. Payments under the special scheme are now in general comparable with the net payments to disabled or other persons who are in receipt of wages under the ordinary training scheme but exact parity between the two schemes is not possible because the one contains the element of additional allowances for dependants, and no deductions for tax or insurance, while the other is based on wage rates, with no dependant's allowances, but subject to deductions for tax and insurance.

Is the Minister aware that the New Zealand Government have instituted such a scheme, giving £5 5s. a week to disabled men exclusive of pension?

I dare say we shall be able to do the same when we get the same type of Government here.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in supplying nurse for private nursing, his Appointments Department accept the wage scales laid down in the Rushcliffe Report and, if not, what increase is prescribed; whether the period of work is 48 hours a week or 96 a fortnight; and whether any overtime is permitted if the nurse is anxious to render additional and emergency service to her patient?

When permitting a nurse who is covered by the Control of Engagement Order to accept or seek private engagement, my Department does not attempt to impose conditions as to the wages or conditions of employment to be observed.

In order to Clarify the position, as there seems to be some uncertainty, will the Minister say whether it is possible for a nursing agency which supplies hospital nurses still to function subject to the approval of the Appointments Department of the Ministry of Labour?

Yes, it can function outside the Control of Engagement Order.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of conscientious objectors who have been directed into the mines and who have gone there?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer that I gave on 23rd September to the hon. and gallant Member for Cambridge (Lieut.-Commander Tufnell).

Could the Minister state how many coalowners have been so directed and have gone there?

asked the Minister of Labour whether, as the fact that his Department has found in practice that it is useless to direct prostitutes into National Service indicates the need for a comprehensive inquiry to devise constructive measures to deal with the treatment and training of the social and industrial misfit, he will now set up such an inquiry?

I do not think that the difficulties of dealing with the class of person under the National Service scheme are a sufficient reason why I should undertake the suggested inquiry, which would raise many social and medical issues extending far beyond the sphere of my Department.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the present situation is the source of a good deal of dissatisfaction to women who are subject to direction and who are tied by direction?

Yes, Sir, but I cannot use the National Service Act for a sociological purpose of this character, or I should bring the whole system into disrepute.

asked the Minister of Labour (1) what steps are being taken to ascertain the trades which may absorb a proportion of women disabled by war service or enemy action; and whether any estimate exists as to the form of training suitable for such women, and the numbers which might be accepted for training with the approval of employers and trade unions;

(2) how far effect is given to the Government scheme for visiting disabled Service women in hospital prior to their discharge from the Services with a view to their training and resettlement for future employment; and what steps he proposes to take in view of the feeling among those concerned that the principle of the scheme is excellent but that its application is uncertain?

The facilities of the Interim and the Further Education and Training Schemes are available for women equally with men and the fullest opportunity for interview at hospitals and subsequently at local offices is given to disabled women who need advice in regard to their future employment. There are training courses at the Government training centres at St. Loyes Training College, Exeter, and at other establishments and the number of women so far admitted is 114. The courses are limited for the present to occupations which provide employment under war conditions but these will be developed to meet post-war needs as part of the general scheme for the resettlement of disabled persons recommended by the Tomlinson Committee, the preparations for which are being actively pursued. No estimate of numbers or of the precise limits of training could profitably be made at present.

Is the Minister aware that on several occasions lately when his officials have either not been able to visit or have not visited the hospitals where disabled ex-Service women are, these women are being discharged without having been able to get into touch with the officials?

I will undertake to take the matter up again and impress it upon the Department, and I would welcome any information of particular cases so that I may follow them up immediately.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Gravesend Co-operative Society engaged Leonard George Stevens, a man of low medical category, to replace another employee already called up for the Forces, but have failed to induce the local manpower board to regard him as essential in his present job of butcher and cutter driving a travelling motor shop in rural areas, although he is the only employee engaged in that class of work; that his employers have failed to secure a substitute for him if he is removed, and it is now suggested that he become an employee of N.A.A.F.I.; and whether, in view of the increase in the transport of customers if this travelling shop is abandoned, he will consider granting further if not complete deferment to this man?

A letter was sent to my hon. Friend on 16th October explaining the reasons why further deferment cannot be given in this case.

Does not my right hon. Friend think that this man is doing quite as essential work where he is? If he is taken away from his present job several hundreds of his customers in rural areas will have to travel into the towns to do their shopping.

That does not follow; a substitute may be found. The man-power board have to deal with the case on its merits, and I cannot interfere.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall raise this issue on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can now make a statement regarding his proposals to deal with the reinstatement of serving men in their previous posts in industry?

No, Sir, not yet.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider reopening the Industrial Museum, Horseferry Road, for the same hours and conditions as pre-war?

I regret that owing to lack of staff this cannot be done at present. Arrangements can be made, however, for individuals or parties to be shown some of the exhibits by appointment. Application should be made direct to the Museum or through the Factory Inspectorate.

asked the Minister of Labour whether civil servants employed in his Department are precluded from giving personal interviews to representatives of the Press in regard to matters with which they are concerned in their official capacity?

Yes, Sir, except with official authority.

asked the Minister of Labour how far the civil servant acting as Secretary of the National Arbitration Tribunal, or the members of the tribunal itself, are responsible for the content and the form of awards issued by the Tribunal?

The content and the form of awards of the National Arbitration Tribunal are the collective responsibility of the Tribunal as constituted for the hearing of the particular case. The Secretary is an officer of the Tribunal and has no responsibility for the decisions reached.

Would it follow from those two replies to the last two Questions that Press criticisms of the civil servant who acted as Secretary of the Arbitation Tribunal whose award was in issue in the Barrow strike—first, that he declined to give an interview, and second that the terms of the award were lacking in clarity—were wholly unjustified?

Yes, I saw the interview in the Press. I thought it was a great waste of man-power to send a journalist to interview the man and a great waste of paper which seamen had brought from overseas to print it.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether with a view to the relief of distress among the poorer classes in India, the policy of establishing mothers' clinics on the lines of those in Britain has been considered?

I think my hon. and gallant Friend will agree that as a general proposition this is a matter for the respective Provincial Governments. I understand that in the present emergency special relief measures are being taken for the assistance of mothers and children, but I doubt if it would be possible to find trained staff for a general system of mothers' clinics throughout India.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the institution of these clinics would do a great deal to obviate distress in India?

If they could be instituted.

Is it not a fact that the infantile and maternal mortality in India is one of the highest in the world? Why do the Government shelve their responsibility in this way?

Actually the responsibility has been for many years that of the Provincial Governments.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these clinics have been working in Western India for the last 20 years?

Could the right hon. Gentleman explain what these mothers' clinics are for? Are they not for other purposes than merely giving relief and advice?

I am afraid I could not explain in detail.

asked the Secretary of State for India to what extent the growers of grain in Bengal have caused a shortage by hoarding; and whether he has any information as to the proportion of the cultivators who are in debt and in the hands of those to whom they owe money?

Most of the grain is produced by peasant cultivators. Hoarding by the cultivator is not a matter which can be reduced to statistics, but there is no doubt that it is one of the many causes of the trouble in Bengal. Information on the second part of the Question is not available in this country.

Is it true that the cultivator is not the real hoarder? In view of the fact that the cultivator in Bengal, and indeed all over India, is in debt to moneylenders almost before the grain is grown, it is largely a matter of hoarding by those who hold liens over the crops, and not by the cultivators themselves. Is there not a danger of giving the impression that the poor cultivator is himself responsible?

If my hon. Friend will read my answer, he will realise that I made it clear that the retention of grain by the cultivator was only one of the causes of the shortage.

Is it not really inflation which has led to hoarding, by making it profitable to hold back supplies? Is not inflation a matter which His Majesty's Government ought to be careful to avoid?

Yes, Sir, inflation has certainly been a contributory cause.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that the present crisis in India is due rather to distribution than to shortage, and that mal-distribution is primarily caused by the fact that tens of thousands of growers of foodstuffs in India are in the hands of moneylenders? Would it not be better to provide for moneys to be loaned to the food growers, with a view to their stocks being delivered to the Government?

Yes, Sir. I also made a statement on the subject the other day.

Is it not the case that in many instances the hoarding is done by the cultivators' landlords.

Yes, Sir, in many cases that is true.

Is it the Government of India or the Provincial Governments which have the power to deal with this matter?

It is a matter primarily for the Provincial Governments, but the Central Government are taking whatever steps are required to deal with it.

asked the Secretary of State for India to what extent the Bengal Government's notifications against hoarding grain have been brought into force, and to what extent has action been taken under them?

The Food Grains Control Order, which provides effective penalties for profiteering and hoarding, is operative throughout India, including Bengal. Its firm application has always been urged upon the Bengal Government, and I understand that more vigorous action is being taken in this matter. The Government of India have within the last few days declared to the Provincial representatives assembled at the Delhi Food Conference their determination to insist on full efficiency in the procurement of necessary food grains and to invoke and use whatever powers are essential to secure success. I have no figures of amounts requisitioned in Bengal or of the number of prosecutions for hoarding.

Will my right hon. Friend seriously consider, as soon as this crisis is over, asking the Government of India to set up a commission to discover the causes of this famine and place the blame on the right shoulders?

I will consider submitting the point to the Government of India, but my own view is to remedy the evil rather than to try to distribute blame on a great many backs.

Has my right hon. Friend noted that I said, "as soon as this crisis is over"? The inquiry will be wanted for the purpose of avoiding such a crisis again.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire how many big hoarders of grain have been prosecuted by the Bengal Government?

Big hoarders and small hoarders.

Has the attention of my right hon. Friend been called to a statement that the Bengal Government obtained grain for the Punjab at 10 rupees per maund free on rail, and resold it to the mills in Bengal at 15½ rupees per maund? Has he any comment to make on the subject, and who took the profit?

I understand, that the Bengal Government did resell at a higher price, but the profits they made were devoted to subsidising food for the relief of the poor.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that, during the threat of invasion by the Japanese, the Indian Tea Association, through local planters, voluntarily supplied food and organised assistance to thousands of evacuees who came through the trackless country between Burma and Assam; that several planters risked their lives in succouring the evacuees and several met their death as a result of their labours; and what recognition or Government appreciation has been given to those who gave their services in this way?

I am glad of this opportunity to pay tribute to the magnificent services voluntarily and generously rendered by the Indian Tea Association and by tea-planters and others within its organisation in alleviating the hardships suffered by the refugees who came into India from Burma by land, and I am glad to say that in several cases these conspicuous services have been recognised by the conferment of an honour by His Majesty. I have already conveyed my appreciation to the Association and hope that their devoted and splendid work will be generally appreciated.

In view of the deserved tribute he has paid to those who have saved life, will not the Minister also condemn those who have raised prices and sacrificed life?

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he will give particulars respecting the loan of approximately 200 crores of rupees from the India people; what part public representatives will play in supporting this loan; and, in view of the incongruity of raising this loan during this period of grave food shortage, whether further appeals for War Loan will cease?

While certain borrowing operations, including a vigorous Small-Savings Campaign, are in progress in India, I am unable to identify the figure of Rs.200 crores mentioned by the hon. Member, but the Government of India have announced an issue of Rs.25 crores of 3 per cent. Funding Loan, 1966–68, to be issued in the market in the usual way. In so far as the rise in prices of foodstuffs is to be ascribed to a redundancy of purchasing power, its absorption by borrowing is one of the most effective measures that can be taken for the protection of Indian economy.

Could not money raised in this way be used to pay for imported grain and rice, to feed the starving population?

There is no difficulty about money. The difficulty is the actual physical distribution of the grain and its importation into the country.

Surely it has to be paid for?

Yes; but there is no difficulty about payment. There is more than enough money in India already.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has any further information respecting the enforced resignation of Mr. Fash ul Huq from the premiership of the Bengal Provincial Government; whether he can give the political composition of the present Government; and what representations that Government has made to the Central Government or the Governor-General respecting the food shortage?

I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave on 8th April to the honourable Member's Question regarding the resignation of Mr. Fash ul Huq. The present Bengal Ministry was formed last April of thirteen members, of whom seven, including the Chief Minister, belong to the Moslem League, three are Caste Hindus and three are representative of the Scheduled Castes. With regard to the last part of the Question the Government of India are in constant consultation with the Government of Bengal through the Regional Food Commissioner and otherwise. The Government of Bengal have also been represented at all the Conferences of Provincial and States representatives convened by the Government of India.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what representations the Bengal Provincial Government have made in the past to the Central Government and whether they have been considered and acted upon by the Central Government?

Yes, Sir, the matter has been under constant consultation and negotiation between the Bengal Government and the Central Government. I think on the whole it is the Central Government that has been busy making the representations.

If it is true that the Bengal Provincial Government has made constant representations over a number of months, is it not the case that they cannot be blamed in the way they have been blamed in certain quarters?

No, Sir, I said there has been constant consultation between the two Governments, but I am not able to give the particular nature of each consultation at this moment.

Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House why the resignation was enforced, and were there differences between the Prime Minister and the Governor?

The resignation took place in the ordinary course of Provincial self-government, and there is a Government in Bengal to-day, which at any rate in the last test of strength enjoyed the confidence of the Legislature.

Is it not a fact that the resignation was enforced by the Governor and that action was not taken by the Government themselves? Is it not a fact that it was dragged out of Mr. Fash ul Huq as it were and that he was compelled to resign? Why cannot the House be told that this resignation was compelled by the Governor?

No, Sir, the resignation was not compelled by the Governor. The Prime Minister made it clear to the Governor that he wished to resign.

Is it not a fact that he was confronted with his resignation in a private meeting with the Governor without any knowledge of it beforehand?

Answer.

Arising out of my right hon. Friend's first reply, is it not the case that more direct representations have been made from the Central Government to the Bengal Government than vice versa?

Yes, Sir, I think that is the case.

That is not the Question that has been asked.

Why not get a new Secretary of State for India?

asked the Secretary of State for India what information he has respecting the cholera in Malabar and in other parts of India; whether there is a shortage of drugs and medical supplies for civilian use in India; and what information he has received from the Central Government respecting the spread of disease, assistance needed in combating this, and the approximate deaths to date due to famine?

There have been reports of cholera in various parts of India. I have not so far had any indication of any widespread outbreak or of any special difficulty experienced by the Provincial Governments concerned in dealing with the outbreaks of this or any other disease. I have not had recently any report of shortage of drugs or medical supplies for civilian use nor any special report from the Central Government respecting the spreading of disease nor any request from them for assistance in this connection.

As regards deaths due to famine, the Government of India report that figures are as yet incomplete and unreliable, especially in respect of the districts, and I am afraid it must be some time before the loss of life can be even approximately stated. It may afford some guide that in Calcutta mortality is reported as about twice the normal for the time of year and that between mid-August and mid-October about 2,000 persons suffering from malnutrition have died in Calcutta hospitals. I have asked for periodical reports from the Government of India.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries at once as to the possible spread of this disease and also inquire of the Central Government whether medical supplies are required at the present time to supplement whatever supplies they have?

My answer made it clear that the information I have is that there is no shortage of medical supplies and there is no widespread outbreak of disease, but I will certainly continue to inquire.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any truth in the Press report this morning that the people of India prefer the quicker death from cholera than the long-drawn-out death from starvation?

asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered the resolution of the Lea Bridge Works Factory Committee, sent to him by the hon. Member for West Fife, demanding the removal from office of the Secretary of State for India and the liberation of the political leaders in India; and what reply he has made to this request?

Such matters hardly seem to fall within the province of the Lea Bridge Works Factory Committee, and I have accordingly directed that no answer should be sent to them.

While I cannot thank the Prime Minister for his low opinion of the Lea Bridge Works Committee, I would like to ask him if he is aware that the constituents of the Secretary of State for India repudiated him at a public meeting at Sparkbrook, and is he not aware that he would be meeting the wishes of the great mass of the people of this country if he advised the Secretary of State to vanish from the scene?

Surely the right hon. Gentleman will not deny that it is one of our priceless democratic privileges that we should be entitled at any time to ask for the removal of a member of the Government?

Certainly, anyone is entitled to do that, but answers will be given by the Government, in the first instance at any rate, on the Floor of the House to Members of Parliament.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this factory is in my constituency and holds him in the highest esteem and would equally esteem a reply from him?

Perhaps if they send me a communication on some subject on which they are specially qualified to express an opinion, I shall have the opportunity, which I should greatly value, of corresponding with them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether, for the benefit of all the people who have to cycle to or from their work in the blackout, he will authorise any further improvement in the permitted standard of cycle-lighting this winter?

In February of this year an amendment was made to the Lighting (Restrictions) Order which permitted an appreciable increase in the brightness of front lights on bicycles. This was welcomed by the cyclists' associations, and I am not aware of any general demand for a further increase.

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the favourable turn in the air war and the damaging effect on public morale of the lighting restrictions, especially after four winters of war, he will consider an experimental lessening of the black-out in the London area during this autumn?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on 23rd September to Questions about the possibility of relaxing the black-out Regulations.

In view of the fact that the German raiders to-day almost invariably drop flares, does he consider that a small lessening of the black-out would really add to the public danger?

That is not in accordance with the advice of the Air Ministry.

Could the Home Secretary see his way to lessening some of the early morning restrictions?

That was dealt with in the answer to which I have referred.

Is the Minister aware of the detrimental effect the black-out is having on industrial workers? Could he not see his way to relieve the restrictions somewhat, in view of the fact that some men never see daylight for four months of the year?

I have done what I can in that respect, but the advice of my Department and the Ministry of Labour is that workmen would be worried if the black-out was lifted.

Does the Minister think that the black-out has prevented the Germans from reaching London in any of the last five nights, including last night, when there was a heavy thunderstorm?

It probably had an effect on the capacity of the Germans to drop bombs on any particular object.

But did they not drop all the bombs they brought?

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that his Department has agreed that there is justification for increasing the inconvenience allowance paid to prison officers serving at Dartmoor, he will give urgent consideration to the question of improving the existing allowance of 3s. 6d. per week?

This question is bound up with the question of allowances at other prison establishments, and, as the hon. Member is aware, the matter is at the present time the subject of Whitley Council negotiations.

asked the Home Secretary whether, consequent upon a state of war existing between Italy and Germany, he will clarify the status of Italian nationals in Great Britain; whether they will now enjoy the privileges accorded to friendly aliens; and whether it is proposed to release any Italians now interned?

The declaration of war by Italy upon Germany does not alter the legal status of Italian nationals in Great Britain. As regards treatment, Italians at liberty have been able, for a long time past, to make application for release from the special restrictions to which they were subject as aliens of enemy nationality, and this has been granted in cases where it was clear that they were anti-Fascist and in sympathy with the Allied cause. Of those who were interned when Italy entered the war on the side of the Axis, the majority have been released, either because they came within the categories of eligibility for release laid down by the White Paper (Command Paper 6233, 1940) or because they were willing and able to undertake work of national importance, and could be set free without risk to security. It is open to those still in internment to apply for release with a view to assisting our war effort, and any such application will be considered on its merits.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is the intention that the cases of all interned Italians will be reviewed automatically?

They are reviewed from time to time in any case, and we take into account any changed circumstances which may be relevant to the situation.

Can the Home Secretary say how many are still interned?

Not without notice.

:As to the best of by knowledge there is no scientific apparatus to tell whether a Fascist is still a Fascist, would it not be far more prudent to leave things as they are?

asked the Home Secretary whether the police took the names of any of the persons engaged in the recent second front demonstration at the corner of Downing Street?

Yes, Sir. A deputation of four persons wished to present resolutions at No. 10, and their names were taken before they were allowed to pass the barrier at the end of Downing Street.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also take the names of those members of the Government who frequently told us that the second front would take place before now?

Can the Home Secretary say whether their registration cards were examined in the same way as they are at football matches?

I cannot say without notice.

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that some chairmen of quarter sessions are paid and that Income Tax is now high, he will arrange with county councils that chairmen who are not paid for their services should be remunerated, if not by a salary, at least by the payment of the expenses which they have properly incurred in the discharge of these public duties?

Apart from certain special statutory provisions in respect of the counties of London, Lancashire, Middlesex and Hertfordshire, the only chairmen of quarter sessions to whom salaries are payable are those appointed under the special provisions of the Administration of Justice Act, 1938, which provide for the appointment of legally qualified chairmen by the King on the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor. The fact that salaries are payable to such chairmen could not properly be regarded as a ground for introducing a system of paying from public funds expenses incurred by lay justices, or by such lay justices as may be chosen by their colleagues to act as chairmen.

Could not the Home Secretary make some arrangement with the county council so that the chairman or deputy chairman could at least be remunerated or reimbursed in respect of out-of-pocket expenses for doing the job?

My impression is that the county council would not have power to make payments.

Could not they be given the power?

Not without legislation.

asked the Home Secretary what arrangements exist for reimbursing amounts paid for insuring motor-cars lent to the voluntary motor-car pools where such motor-cars have never been called on and the owners of which have therefore not been able to earn any of the money so expended by the appropriate remuneration on the mileage basis?

None, Sir. Membership of these car pools is entirely voluntary, and the terms include responsibility of the car owner to pay for insurance and maintenance. The pools exist to perform services necessary in the national interest, and the numbers of journeys of course depend on the exigencies of the war. These journeys are distributed as widely as possible among the owners available to perform them, but no financial provision can be made to compensate those to whom no journeys can be offered at times when their cars are available.

Does not the Minister consider that this situation is not likely to encourage voluntary effort in the future?

The voluntary car pools were on the basis of voluntary effort for the aid of the country, and I do not believe that the good citizen will be influenced in a contrary direction by material considerations. I agree that it would be difficult in some cases but it was always on a voluntary basis.

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the recent judgments by the Lord Chief Justice and two judges of the High Court, he will make a statement on the practice and procedure of juvenile courts throughout the country?

asked the Home Secretary whether he has considered the judgments delivered by the Lord Chief Justice and two other judges of the High Court in a recent case; whether he will make a statement upon the procedure in juvenile courts; and whether he will circularise all magistrates of these courts with regard to their powers and duties?

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to a recent judgment of the High Court; and whether he has any statement to make on the procedure of the juvenile courts?

asked the Home Secretary whether he can make any statement regarding the procedure and practice in juvenile courts in view of the recent judgment of the High Court?

asked the Home Secretary whether he is prepared to order an immediate inquiry into the practice and procedure of juvenile courts?

In view of the length of the answer, I will, with permission, make a statement at the end of Questions.

In view of the Home Secretary's statement, I beg leave to postpone my Question till after he has made it.

I can at any rate answer the first part of the Question. No Parliamentary time can be found.

This matter has received the careful attention of the Lord Chancellor and myself. The facts about which there is no controversy are as follow:

Dennis Craddock was charged jointly with other boys with theft from a school of pencils and other small articles valued at 11s. 6d., with theft from a furniture store of articles valued at £36, and with malicious damage on an extensive scale to furniture and articles in this store. The prosecution was conducted by an inspector of the City of Hereford police. The case was heard by three magistrates in the Juvenile Court at Hereford on the 12th and the 26th January last. At the first hearing Craddock was represented by a solicitor; at the second hearing a solicitor was present representing one of the other boys. To the charge of theft from the school there was a plea of guilty. As regards the other charges, there appears to be no doubt as to the boy's guilty. There was, amongst other evidence, evidence given by his mother that he brought home some of the articles stolen from the furniture store. The mother of one of the other boys was subsequently convicted of receiving some of the stolen goods knowing that they were stolen.

It is a fundamental principle of justice that any information as to the character of an accused person or as to other offences admitted by him shall not be given to the court before his guilt has been admitted or ascertained, and the primary question for consideration by the High Court was whether there had been a breach of this principle. From the affidavits which were laid before the High Court, it appeared that, before the question of Craddock's guilt or innocence had been determined on some of the charges, the police inspector who was prosecuting stated that the boy had asked that other offences should be taken into consideration. No affidavit from the police officer concerned was laid before the High Court and the police were not represented at the High Court proceedings. From such information as I have as yet been able to obtain, it appears that the police inspector believed that there were at the outset of the proceedings pleas of guilty to all the charges. If this were so, the officer's statement at this stage about other offences would have been quite proper.

Neither was there any affidavit before the High Court from the defending solicitor, and the Lord Chancellor is informed by the Justices that neither the solicitor nor the Clerk to the Justices protested against the police officer's statement. If they did not, the question arises why they acquiesced in a proceeding which would be so gross and obvious an irregularity. There was no affidavit before the High Court from the Clerk to the Justices, whose duty it would have been to call attention to this breach of an elementary principle of law. In these circumstances, the Divisional Court, to whom an application was made to quash the conviction, necessarily proceeded upon such affidavit material as was before it, and its decision to quash the certiorari is final and is, of course, not open to question in any quarter.

The Lord Chancellor and I, after making such preliminary inquiries as time has permitted, have come to the conclusion that additional information is essential before any decision can be reached as to what action ought to be taken with regard to the police officer and to those responsible for the conduct and guidance of the Court, and we have decided that for this purpose there must be a special inquiry. I am glad to be able to announce that Lord Justice Goddard has agreed to undertake the inquiry. His terms of reference will cover the whole conduct of the Craddock case, and he will be asked to make a full report. It will, of course, be understood that their is not, and cannot be, any question of reviewing the decision of the Divisional Court. The inquiry will be in public and the report will be published. Pending the conclusion of the inquiry the three Justices concerned have given their undertaking to the Lord Chancellor that they will not sit on the Bench, either in the juvenile court or the ordinary court.

There are certain general questions on which something should be said. First, when a court of summary jurisdiction orders a boy to be whipped, the law provides for this to be done "as soon as practicable" and in the presence, if he desires to be present, of the parent or guardian of the child. The words "as soon as practicable" must be applied reasonably, and with regard in particular to the importance of giving the parent a reasonable opportunity to be present if he wishes. The exact circumstances, in Craddock's case, will be part of Lord Justice Goddard's inquiry. The question whether advice on this general subject can usefully be given to juvenile courts is receiving my immediate attention. Secondly, I am not sure that it is everywhere understood that when a Bench orders that a child should be put in the charge of an education authority the period is of an indeterminate character, so as to enable it to be brought to an end on review of the circumstances, but terminates in any case at the age of 18. This is, as I understand, the nature of the order that was made in the present case. Thirdly, the question has been raised whether the exclusion of the general public from attendance at Juvenile Courts is open to objection. This question received the careful attention of Parliament when the Children Act was amended in 1932, and the provisions enacted were designed to secure that the restrictions on the attendance of members of the general public should not prevent adequate publicity. There is an express provision that the representatives of newspapers or news agencies shall not be excluded from the court, and the only restriction on newspaper reports of juvenile court proceedings is that the name of the child or particulars calculated to lead to his identification shall not be published. In the Hereford case a newspaper representative was present and a report was published in the local Press. On my present information, I cannot find that there is anything in this case to call for amendment of the provisions enacted by Parliament in 1932.

A point to which great importance attaches is that the special arrangements authorised by Parliament to prevent the proper treatment of children being prejudiced by undue formality shall not lead to the neglect by juvenile courts of procedural requirements which are essential to the administration of justice. If any juvenile court has tended to overlook the importance of this point, the judgment of the High Court and the wide publicity given to it will serve a valuable purpose in bringing home to Justices throughout the country, and to the clerks who advise them, the need for strict attention to this matter. I should like to add that in the experience of the Home Office the methods of dealing with children and young persons sanctioned by Parliament in the Children and Young Persons Act have had beneficial results. Many men and women who have special qualifications for this work are rendering most valuable public service by devoting time, trouble, patience and judgment to hearing cases in juvenile courts.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the case of the second boy who did not appeal and who, apparently, was wrongly convicted, is on the same lines as that of the first boy?

An inquiry covering the whole conduct of the Craddock case will necessarily, of course, cover the case of Payne, who was charged jointly with Craddock, and, therefore, I think that any question affecting Payne should be deferred until the report of the inquiry has been received.

As it appears that the Justices have, in effect, been suspended from duty in the meantime, is any similar action being taken with regard to the clerk to the Justices, who usually acts as their guide and adviser, and also with regard to the police official who acted as prosecutor in this case?

As a matter of fact, the clerk is serving His Majesty in the Royal Navy, which he joined four days after this case was last heard, and, therefore, that does not arise. The Justices have, voluntarily, undertaken not to act. They feel that it would be difficult in the circumstances for them to act, but I would say to the House, and I would say to the Press, that it would be fair to suspend final judgment about this case until the inquiry has been completed.

Will any proceedings be taken against the proprietors of those newspapers which published the name of this unfortunate child?

That would depend on the circumstances of the publication. Possibly the name may have been given by the parent, in which case I doubt whether exception could be taken. With regard to the police officer referred to by my hon. Friend, on the information at present before me, I do not think I should be justified in taking any disciplinary action. I think that also should wait until the inquiry is completed. I want it to go forward dispassionately and fairly, and in the meantime I hope that trial by newspaper will not be continued.

Did I understand the right hon. Gentleman, in his very full statement, to say that the Appeal Court, with the Lord Chief Justice, had come to a decision upon this matter without having all the relevant facts before them?

No, Sir. My hon. Friend will appreciate that the Divisional Court, under the Lord Chief Justice, can only deal with the case on the material contained in the affidavits before it, and nothing else could be done. It would be wrong of me to criticise the High Court, and there is no basis for any criticism of the High Court as far as I know. The matter in dispute is whether, in the affidavits that the Justices themselves put in, there was enough material to give that degree of reliable assistance to the Divisional Court which was appropriate, and that is a matter for them.

Could they not have called for additional evidence?

I doubt whether they could. I think they must deal with the case on the evidence before them.

rose—

Mr. Astor.

On a point of Order. The Home Secretary has made a statement in answer to a Question put down by me. Is it not permissible for me to ask a Supplementary Question arising out of that? Other hon. Members have asked Supplementary Questions, and not one of them had a Question on the Paper on this subject.

The hon. Member may put a Supplementary Question when his name is called, and not before.

Will this question of the possible lack of sufficient affidavits from all the parties concerned before the High Court be within the terms of reference of Lord Justice Goddard?

I imagine it is a relevant consideration in relation to the inquiry. It is a matter, of course, for Lord Justice Goddard to come to his own conclusion, but, on the face of it, I think it is probably relevant.

Can the Home Secretary tell the House why, when he got a full report of the proceedings, he condoned and approved of the proceedings in March, in a letter that he sent to me; and will he not pay tribute to the great service given by the Council for Civil Liberties in bringing these very undesirable proceedings to light?

As this matter has obtained considerable publicity, perhaps the House will permit me to make this statement. No reports were made, or any information given to me, about the major matters which formed the subject of the High Court's decision. The story in the enclosure to the hon. Member's communication was that when the sentence of birching was announced, the father immediately said he would appeal and that, three or four minutes later, the chairman sent a messenger to stop the birching, but it was then too late. Inquiries made by the Home Office showed that this version of the proceedings was inaccurate, and the hon. Member was so informed. On 14th April the hon. Member sent another letter from the father repeating the story that delay was caused through the ignorance of the Justices' clerk on the question of whether there was a right of appeal. The clerk says there was no such delay. The father asked whether there was a right of appeal, and the clerk, according to himself, replied immediately, "I think so, but will verify it," and he verified it in a few seconds.

Did the Home Secretary say, in a letter to me, that while he was sympathetic with the parents, it was in the interests of the child that he should be separated from the parents for seven years?

On the facts before me it appeared to me that the order of the court was not unreasonable. [Interruption.] Believe me, I have had experience. I think to misrepresent it by saying the child was necessarily going to be separated from his parents for seven years is quite wrong. It might well be he would be back in three months.

The fact is that they both thrashed the boy and then handed him over to the education authorities. Some might say, "Give him a smacking, and that will be a lesson to the child," but the real point is that they thrashed him and then handed him over.

I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if, in the administration of juvenile courts, he will ensure that when a child is sent away the parents know his whereabouts?

That is a disputatious point. There are cases in which it is desirable that for a time the child should not be communicated with by its parents. I am bound to say that in this case my opinion is that the education authority conducted itself very well and that the boy was looked after very well where he went.

Is it possible to ask these courts dealing with juveniles to be good enough to look at proposals issued by the Committee appointed by the Home Office indicating to them the way these juveniles should be treated?

We do all we can in that direction.

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say the father approached the magistrates' clerk to ask him if there was a right of appeal, and the magistrates' clerk said, "I think so, but I will look it up?" Did the birching take place before any further communication with the father? Secondly, when will the inquiry begin?

On a point of Order. Is it not the case that writs had been issued by the parents and that this case is before the courts?

I am aware of that fact, and therefore I have been watching these questions very carefully, and I was a little alarmed about the last question.

That is certainly a matter which must be left to the inquiry. I do not think I ought to say anything.

May I ask the Home Secretary to make clear to benches that the denial of the right of access by parents to children should be limited to care and protection cases where the child is taken from the parents on the ground of bad conditions at home and not on account of the naughtiness of the child?

asked the Home Secretary when he proposes to appoint a new stipendiary magistrate for London to the existing vacancy?

I hope to be in a position to make a recommendation to the King very shortly.

asked the Home Secretary why there was no Explanatory Memorandum attached to The Emergency Powers (Defence) Isle of Man (S.R. & O., No. 1375, of 1943)?

For this Order, which is operative not in the United Kingdom but in the Isle of Man, it did not appear that any useful purpose would be served by an Explanatory Memorandum. The first article, which requires persons landing in the Isle of Man to produce particulars of identity, appears to be self-explanatory, and the second article makes a number of detailed changes in an Isle of Man Defence Regulation for the purpose of bringing it into line with a corresponding Regulation in the United Kingdom code.

Does not this Order consist entirely of amendments to previous Orders, and is not that precisely the type of Regulation which it is desirable to explain by means of an Explanatory Memorandum?

:That was considered, and I will keep the hon. and learned Gentleman's point in mind. But this is an Order which applies to the Isle of Man and not to the United Kingdom, except on this point about travel facilities. It was clear on the face of it, and, on balance, I did not think it necessary to provide an Explanatory Memorandum, which would have been a rather long affair.

But is there any reason why persons in the Isle of Man should not be given these additional facilities for understanding the purpose of an Order of this kind?

I think that in all probability the Government in the Isle of Man will have taken appropriate steps to make it clear to them.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will give the nearest estimate of cost which would be added to Exchequer and local rate expenditure by the acceptance of full financial responsibility for non-provided schools?

In the absence of information as to the annual expenditure of the managers of non-provided public elementary schools, it is not possible to give a precise answer to the Question. On the assumption, however, that the cost per child of loan charges and of repairs in the case of non-provided public elementary schools were the same as in the case of provided schools, I estimate that the additional annual cost to public funds resulting from the transfer of all the obligations of managers to local education authorities would be of the order of £2,850,000.

Does the Minister recognise that the whole of this money, which has to come out of private pockets, goes to build up our national educational system? Therefore, is it not unfair that private pockets should be called upon to defray such charges?

I wish the situation was quite as simple as the hon. Member makes out.

asked the President of the Board of Education on what principles he has reconstituted the membership of the Youth Advisory Council; and on what subject precisely he expects them to report in future?

The new Council has been constituted on the same basis as its predecessor. I have decided to make the new Council a rather smaller and more compact body, having power to examine witnesses and, as may be necessary, to co-opt other persons on to any sub-committees or groups that it may set up to deal with particular aspects of the remit that I have asked the Council to consider. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the terms of the remit.

asked the President of the Board of Education when it is proposed to publish the Report on Cultural Conventions drawn up by a Commission of the Conference of Allied Ministers of Education?

This document is being printed for the information of the Governments concerned, and I shall be glad to make it available to hon. Members as soon as it is ready.

Would my right hon. Friend tell us what are "Cultural Conventions"?

If my hon Friend will read the document when it appears, he will be fully informed.

asked the President of the Board of Education on what date he received the Interim Report of the Fleming Committee and why it was not published until after the Debate on the White Paper?

The Special Report of the Fleming Committee was presented on 17th April last. The Report was concerned almost exclusively with a problem of which, as stated in paragraph 32 of the White Paper, consideration has been postponed for the present. It was thus thought better that the publication of this Report should follow the issue of the White Paper which indicates the main lines of Government policy.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is prepared to grant facilities for talks and lantern or film lectures on the British Empire in the schools?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for East Renfrew (Major Lloyd) on Tuesday last.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that headmasters are making full use of such facilities as are available?

Yes, Sir, they are gradually imbibing more and more wisdom from the courses we arc spreading throughout the country.

Is the Minister aware of the unique conference which was held at Newcastle recently, when 2,500 young people met to consider questions relating to the Colonial Empire? Would he recommend that technique to other local authorities?

Yes, Sir, certainly, and I would like to add that I had great pleasure in sending a special message of encouragement to that Conference.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give facilities for the use as a handbook for such talks, Leonard Barnes' little book on Imperialism?