asked the Minister of Labour whether arrangements are being made for the rehabilitation, so far as this may be required, and for the resettlement of the large number of prisoners of war who will be returned to this country at the end of the war after having suffered long periods of confinement?

Yes, Sir. My hon. Friend may rest assured that all necessary steps will be taken in advance to achieve these objects, and the necessary measures are now being devised in consultation between the Departments concerned.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will publish an up-to-date list of the Orders which have been issued by his Department since the outbreak of war registering persons for entry into the Forces and Industry separately, giving the dates of such Orders, the ages of the persons involved, male and female, respectively, stating the purposes for which they were registered and the numbers who actually registered in each case?

No, Sir. I am not aware that there is any general demand for a publication of this kind, and it would not be in the public interest to publish some of the information asked for.

Can my right hon. Friend tell me how he arrived at the conclusion that there is no general demand?

The only communication I have had from the whole of the country for it is in the hon. Member's Question.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the conduct of Messrs. Henry Head and Company, Lloyds insurance brokers, in endeavouring to induce employees in the Forces to accept lump sums in lieu of quarterly allowances and, where these employees have refused to accept such offers except without prejudice to their rights of reinstatement under the National Service Acts, to withdraw any allowance paid; and whether he will make it plain that any similar attempt to evade obligation under the National Service Acts will be resisted by his Department?

I will certainly take any action that may be open to me to deal with any attempt on the part of employers to evade their obligations under the National Service Acts. My attention was drawn to the action by Messrs. Head and Company in a particular case, but I see nothing in what transpired which should affect any statutory right of reinstatement.

Would my right hon. Friend consider bringing the facts of this case to the attention of Lloyd's Committee with a view of disciplinary action against the firm?

I would like to consider that.

asked the Minister of Labour whether anyone has been compusorily enrolled or directed into the Home Guard and so subjected to military law, with its various special implications and obligations, without a Royal Proclamation to cover the age group of that person in view of the fact that no one is compulsorily enrolled in the Armed Forces of the Crown and so subjected to military law unless and until a Royal Proclamation has been made covering the age group of the person called?

Yes, Sir. Under Section 1 of the National Service (No. 2) Act, 1941, the liability of any person to part-time service in the Armed Forces of the Crown, which includes service in the Home Guard, is such as may be imposed upon him under Defence Regulations, and Regulation 3 of the Defence (Home Guard) Regulations, 1940, gives me the power to direct men who are British subjects to enrol in the Home Guard. No Proclamation is necessary. I am not at present directing any men over the age of 51 into the Home Guard.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can give an estimate of the number of man hours lost to the war effort by demonstrators regarding Sir Oswald Mosley?

No, Sir.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether these men received pay for the hours of war labour they have lost while joy riding?

I do not know whether it was joy riding, but they certainly were not paid for it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now give an undertaking that the fees of the two private consultants who gave an opinion on the condition of Sir Oswald Mosley will not be met from public funds?

No question of any fees from public funds will arise. The private consultants with whom the prison medical authorities conferred do not desire that any fee shall be paid in respect of that consultation.

asked the Home Secretary whether in view of the widespread desire for the trial of those British Fascists leaders who co-operated with Hitler and Mussolini before the war, he will consider the desirability of preferring charges against them where evidence is available?

The tactic employed by the leaders of the British Union, both before and after the outbreak of war, was to exploit the liberty which our law allows and which Parliament was anxious to maintain, even under the stress of war, and to take good care not to bring themselves within reach of the criminal law. It was precisely because of our experience of Fifth Column activities in the over-run countries in Europe in the Spring and Summer of 1940, and because this abuse of our cherished traditions of freedom and liberty without any overt breach of the law constituted a serious menace to the security of the State, that it was felt necessary to arm the Executive with exceptional powers of preventive detention. Before exercising these exceptional powers in any particular case, the question of taking criminal proceedings is always considered, and it is the policy to prosecute wherever practicable. If the suggestion is that Parliament should have enacted, or should enact now, some new law under which Sir Oswald Mosley could be brought to trial and punished for his past behaviour and activities, the effect would be to make a person liable to punishment for doing things which at the time when they were done were not forbidden by law, and however widespread may be the desire for bringing the British Fascist leaders to trial, a provision on the lines suggested would be wholly out of keeping with our conceptions of equity and criminal justice and with sound liberal doctrine.

Is the Home Secretary aware that there is a very widespread desire throughout the country that specific charges should be directed against Sir Oswald Mosley? Do I understand from him that under the law at the present time there is no evidence on which such charges could be based?

So far as I know, the answer to the latter part of the question is in the affirmative. If I may say so with regard to widespread feelings in the country, there is a duty resting on Members of Parliament as well as Ministers to deal with such feelings when they are not based on evidence.

While I admit the cogency of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, will he at least consider the cases of those prominent members of the Fascist Party who are now equally prominent Communists and are responsible in some districts for running the "Gaol Mosley" stunt?

What is the difference between action in this case and action in the case of retrospective legislation which the House has already passed dealing with tax evasion?

I should have thought there was a lot of difference. The hon. Member may have another point of view, but I really cannot see the relevance of one to the other.

Could there be a greater condemnation of the action of the Home Secretary than that he should receive the commendation of the unspeakable Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson)?

There is no greater condemnation of the hon. Member than that in the early days he condemned this Regulation as a Fascist law.

Mosley has got off, and so will Mussolini and Hitler.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is prepared to publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT or in any other way make available to Members the medical reports on the health of Sir Oswald Mosley which preceded and led up to the certificate signed on 9th November, 1943?

I have already given to my hon. Friend during the Debate on the 1st instant a reply which I think commended itself to the House, and I have nothing to add to that reply.

In view of the appeal to history contained in my right hon. Friend's week-end speeches does he not think it advisable to supply history with the whole of the evidence and not merely with a selected portion of it?

If you call it a speech there is something in that statement, though it was very difficult to make a speech, I assure you; but I have given the House the essential matter, and I am surprised that my hon. Friend should want further information, because he appeared to know everything about it.

My right hon. Friend is right in saying that I am extremely anxious that my knowledge should be shared by other hon. Members, but it is his responsibility and not mine to give to the appeal tribunal which he himself selected the evidence upon which he acted.

Does not my right hon. Friend think that if Oswald Mosley had got the power which he was seeking for himself he would have put him where the right hon. Gentleman took him from?

Common sense for once.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will arrange for the identity cards of the young men and women at present walking through the streets in procession to be checked to see whether they are properly absent from war work?

No, Sir. There are other and more appropriate methods by which absences from work can be controlled.

Has not the right hon. Gentleman carried out examinations of the cards of persons attending greyhound races, and are not these processions equally worthy of attention?

Will my right hon. Friend apply the same principle to the people who attended the bloodstock sale at Tattersalls the other day?

I am very reluctant to use any powers under the National Service Act which affect people visiting this House or in any way making representations to their Members of Parliament.

Why should they not protest against Mosley?

asked the Home Secretary whether, as one means to reduce the evil of excessive drinking among young people, he will reintroduce the No-treating Order?

The provisions of the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1923, which make it an offence for anyone to buy or attempt to buy intoxicating liquor for consumption by a person under the age of 18, already amount to a No-treating Order in respect of persons under 18. As previously stated my present information would not justify introducing a No-treating Order of general application but I am keeping a close watch on the situation, and if it appears that further measures are required I shall not hesitate to introduce them.

Is my right hon. Friend not aware that he gave me a somewhat similar reply eight months ago? Since then there has been a continual stream of criticism from the Bench and the Press, and a very serious statement was made by Mr. Justice Charles only a few days ago.

I am aware of that, but, although I have kept very close observation, I do not think the case is yet proved. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I quite agree that the evidence is conflicting and a difference of opinion is quite understandable, but to me it is not yet conclusive. I am anxious not to pass restrictive legislation unless there is reasonable cause for it and a prospect of success.

Is the right hon. Gentleman directing his inquiries in the large areas of population or relying on what reaches him independently?

Both ways.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the growing apprehension throughout the country?

It is true that there are many communications on the point of the Questions that have been put. I ask for information and get it and analyse the information that comes, which I do not ask for but am glad to have. Much of it is based on apprehension. What I want is rather more concrete evidence.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider the evidence of all social workers in all crowded areas? Does he not realise the real feeling of almost alarm at the Government not taking a stronger stand and helping these young people?

This seems to me to be more of an argument than a question asking for information.

Eight months ago I called attention to the fact that licensees themselves were complaining about the matter and since then there have been notices calling attention to it.

That is on the narrower point of the administration of the under-18 law. I believe the licensees are trying to administer it. There is no reason why they should not. They have not so much drink that they need not. They have willingly co-operated as regards the posters that I have had put up, but they are in difficulties in knowing whether a woman is 18 or less or more.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that police authorities in some instances prosecute employees of licensed premises and not the licensees for violation of the law prohibiting the sale of intoxicating drinks to persons under 18 years of age; and if he will consider removing this anomaly?

It is an offence for a licensee knowingly to sell, or for his servant knowingly to sell, intoxicating liquor for consumption on the premises by young persons under 18. The question of whom to proceed against depends upon the circumstances in each case. As an employee may contravene the law without the knowledge, or even against the instructions, of the licensee, it would detract from the efficacy of the law if only the licensee were liable to prosecution; but I have no reason to believe there is failure to proceed against licensees when circumstances warrant that course.

Will my right hon. Friend look into this point relating to violation of the law, that when a shop assistant for instance violates the law relating to the adulteration of milk or short weight it is generally the employer who is prosecuted and not the employee but in this case the employee is prosecuted and the employer, the licensee, gets off scot free?

If my hon. Friend persists in that argument, he will weaken the administration of the law. It may well be that an assistant may supply a person under 18 without the knowledge of the employer, and it really is important that the assistant as well as the employer shall have a sense of responsibility.

Is it not possible to prosecute both?

On the face of it, I do not see that, if an employer has given instructions to his employees that they must not do such a thing and they do it, the employer must be held accountable.

asked the Home Secretary the number of persons who have been convicted between 2nd September, 1939, and the most recent available date for breaches of the Intoxicating Liquor (Sale to Persons under Eighteen) Act, 1923; in how many cases has the maximum penalty been imposed; and in how many cases has the charge been dismissed on payment of costs?

I can send my hon. Friend information as to the numbers of persons found guilty, the numbers fined and the numbers who were dismissed under the Probation of Offenders Act. But the statistics collected by my Department do not show what was the amount of the fine, or in how many of the cases which were dismissed, the defendant was ordered to pay costs.

Will my right hon. Friend publish the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT?

I did wish to do that, but I am afraid it will take a week to get the figures. If my hon. Friend will put down another Question, I will certainly do so.

asked the Home Secretary whether he has now given consideration to the proposal that, in the light of decisions arrived at at the Moscow Conference, those who were Austrian subjects before the seizure of that country by Germany on 15th March, 1938, shall in future be described on their passports and other documents as Austrian and not German subjects; and whether he has any statement to make?

This matter is receiving consideration, but I am not at present in a position to make any statement.

If I ask a Question in the next series of Sittings will my right hon. Friend be in a position to reply?

I cannot stop my hon. Friend putting a Question down, but I doubt whether I shall be ready by then. I will try to let him know.

asked the Home Secretary whether he has any statement to make with reference to the Hereford Juvenile Court inquiry; and what action it is proposed to take in respect of the failure of the official concerned to supply the King's Bench Division with essential evidence by serving notice of motion on the prosecuting police officer?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for giving me an opportunity to express in this House my appreciation of the public service which Lord Justice Goddard has rendered by investigating this matter so thoroughly and so quickly, and by writing so admirably clear a Report. It is a matter for general satisfaction—and not least to the Hereford justices concerned—that the Report has completely dissipated the misapprehension that fundamental principles of justice had been ignored by the Hereford Juvenile Court. The Report draws attention to one or two minor questions of procedure as to which I am in consultation with the Lord Chancellor, and I shall consider with him whether the Rules governing the procedure of juvenile courts need any amendment.

The latter part of my hon. Friend's Question seems to involve some misapprehension. It is not the duty of any official to serve notice of motion on the prosecuting police officer; that is the duty of the party who is applying to the Divisional Court, and it is much to be regretted that neither he nor his solicitor took the proper steps to inform the prosecuting police officer that the application was being made. Lord Justice Goddard has pointed out in paragraph 3 of his Report that the police in fact knew nothing of the proceedings in the High Court until they read of them in the newspapers, and that had the police been duly informed a very different state of affairs might have resulted.

Is it not the case that Lord Justice Goddard has, in effect, unofficially reversed the decision of the King's Bench, and is this not a very curious position?

As far as I know, that is not the case, but in any case my hon. Friend is drawing me on to the threshold of dangerous and explosive matters, and I think I had better not express an opinion.

Did the three very experienced Judges who formed the Divisional Court take any cognisance in their judgment of the fact that an essential element in the procedure had not been observed?

If there is to be any question about the procedure of the High Court, it had better be put down.

In view of the fact that the solicitor concerned failed in his duty to inform the police, will he be dealt with by the Law Society?

I am afraid I am not expert enough in the practice of the Law Society to say.

In view of the fact that this Report raises some important and interesting questions and does not remove everybody's dissatisfaction on the original complaint, can an opportunity be afforded to the House to debate the matter?

That is a matter for the Leader of the House, but I should have thought that this Report really effectively disposed of the matter.

asked the Home Secretary whether regulations under the Police and Firemen (War Service) Act, 1939, which suspend the right of police officers to retire on pension during the present emergency without the consent of the appropriate local authority, also suspend the right of the authority to retire such officers solely on the ground that they have reached the retiring age of 50 years?

I am advised that the legal position is that the existing restrictions on the right of police officers to retire during the present emergency do not confer a right on any individual officer to continue in service. In practice, however, it is important that police authorities shall not during the present emergency terminate the services of competent men merely on the ground that they have reached the retiring age, and this principle is, I believe, generally understood.

What can a police officer who is retired by a local authority do in these circumstances?

I am afraid that if a local authority does this there is nothing he can effectively do about it, but I hope the Question and answer may be helpful in the direction my hon. Friend wishes.

May I send the papers to my right hon. Friend again?

Certainly, Sir.

asked the Home Secretary how many British citizens have been flogged or birched during the last 10 years in the British Isles?

During the 10 years 1933–42, 2,100 boys under 17 were sentenced by courts of summary jurisdiction in England and Wales to be birched, and 480 males were sentenced by courts of assize or quarter sessions to receive the birch or the cat. No doubt the great majority of these sentences were imposed on British subjects, but the available statistics do not distinguish between aliens and British subjects.

Is not an increase in crime proved by the figures of flogging?

asked the Home Secretary whether, in connection with voters' rights in local government elections, he will now consider introducing legislation to make possible the holding of these elections with a view to preventing an increase in the large number of members who will otherwise have to be co-opted?

I regret that it is not yet possible to contemplate the holding of local elections. As my hon. Friend knows, a Bill further to suspend the holding of such elections is before the House at the present time.

Did not my right hon. Friend, about six months ago, give me some encouragement to believe that he would do everything possible to prevent an undue degree of co-option? Is not the number of co-opted members on councils throughout the country becoming rather unwieldy?

I always try to give my hon. Friend encouragement, though I do not think I went so far as to say that I would put the position right this year, but the matter will be kept under review.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is not only encouragement I want but effective action?

asked the Home Secretary whether it is the usual procedure to release prisoners suffering from thrombo-phlebitis; and how many such have been released?

The general policy with regard to persons convicted of offences and sentenced to imprisonment or penal servitude is that release on medical grounds is considered if continued imprisonment will endanger the prisoner's life or reason, or will shorten his life, or if he will be bedridden for the remainder of his sentence. During the year 1942 eight men and one woman were released from prison under this policy. There is, of course, no rule that prisoners suffering from one type of disease shall be released and prisoners suffering from another type shall not. Each case is considered by reference to the effect of the disease on the health of the particular prisoner and the degree of danger that continued imprisonment will entail.

Is not the Home Office suffering from moral malaria in releasing for this disease only a millionaire?

Clearly that statement is untruthful, and the hon. and gallant Member must know it. If he and I are going to discuss what he and I are suffering from, it will be a long Debate.

asked the Home Secretary how many persons detained in prison during the last year, for which figures are available, did not return to prison after trial; whether he is aware that many such persons who have been acquitted or bound over on probation are in need of care and assistance; and whether he will take steps to provide this?

During the year 1942 there were 11,287 persons committed to prison on remand or to await trial who did not subsequently receive sentences of imprisonment. Care and assistance are provided in the ordinary course for persons who are bound over on probation under the supervision of the probation officer. In all other cases, the probation officer is usually at the court, and it is part of his duties to give such advice and help as is required. Assistance is also given in some cases through the local Discharged Prisoners' Aid Society.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some Discharged Prisoners' Aid Societies believe that they are unable to help these cases because they are not legally prisoners, and will he take steps to encourage societies to do that?

I will certainly go into that matter.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that a considerable time must elapse before a message, initiated by a fire guard reporting a serious fire, can be conveyed by the various messengers to an N.F.S. station through the prescribed channels to summon a fire engine during an alert at night; and whether he will both simplify the fire guard procedure and assure the House that other methods exist to prevent any delay in the arrival of engines at big fires?

The Fire Guard Plan was devised to secure that calls for assistance are received by the National Fire Service in the quickest and most orderly manner and to eliminate unnecessary and duplicate calls. Exercises have shown that under this system it is possible for the National Fire Service to deal with a large number of incidents more rapidly than hitherto.

asked the Home Secretary whether he will give an assurance that the approval and presentation of a N.F.S. flag does not indicate that the Government propose to maintain a N.F.S. after the war in view of the definite pledge given to the local authorities that the firefighting forces would not be permanently run by the State but would again become a local authority service after the war?

The approval of a National Fire Service flag has no bearing on the post-war organisation of the Fire Service.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that he has given a definite pledge to the Fire Fighting Service on this matter?

What I said is in the records of this House.

asked the Home Secretary how many aliens are under detention in internment camps or prisons on the ground not of suspected traffic or sympathy with the enemy but of offences against the law for which they previously suffered punishment in this or other countries and which are held to justify their deportation when deportation becomes possible; and how many of them have been in detention for over three years?

Forty-five aliens who are known to have been convicted are detained under Article 12 (5A) of the Aliens Order on the grounds that a Deportation Order has been made but cannot be enforced, and that detention is necessary or expedient for the preservation of public order. Seventeen of these persons have been detained for more than three years.

In view of the long period of detention that these men have already suffered in complete separation from their families and without opportunity of earning, is it not time that this policy was reconsidered?

I can assure my hon. Friend that the cases are considered from time to time and are reviewed, but it is important that aliens and particularly refugees should understand that they must behave themselves or something will happen to them in that way. I can assure my hon. Friend that I review the cases from time to time with, I hope, good sense and without lack of sympathy.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what are the considerations of public order referred to in the answer?

No, Sir, not without notice.

asked the Home Secretary how many aliens detained under Regulation 12 (5A) are, respectively, of Allied, neutral or enemy nationality or Stateless?

My hon. Friend no doubt refers to Article 12 (5A) of the Aliens Order. The figures are as follow: 264 are of allied nationality, 27 of neutral nationality, 7 of enemy nationality, 9 are Stateless, and the nationality of 13 is uncertain.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say to what State he intends to send these Stateless aliens after the war, so as to prevent them from being kept indefinitely in detention?

I am afraid I should have to have notice of that Question.

asked the Home Secretary whether he can give any information in connection with the police raid on the Apex Club, Mile End Road, as a result of which Mrs. Ettie da Costa, of Mabon Terrace, Stepney, and others were charged at the Old Street Police Court on Monday last; and what he intends doing to prevent the growth of such clubs?

This club was entered by the police on 4th December. Mrs. da Costa and two other principals were arrested, together with 27 persons found on the premises. On 6th December the three principals were ordered to pay fines amounting to £250 and £31 10s. costs; the remaining persons were bound over. The police do all they can to prevent the growth of such clubs by taking action whenever evidence of breaches of the law can be obtained.

May I ask whether it is the intention to close this club?

I could not say.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the people concerned have plenty of money with which to pay fines and that the only way of getting rid of these clubs is to close them?

I entirely agree that many of these places are most objectionable, but my powers are, of course, limited.

When such raids take place do the police check up on identification cards, the nature of the jobs the men are supposed to be doing, and the ages, in particular the age relating to military service, and is any of that evidence passed over to the Minister of Labour?

Yes, Sir, it must have been done in this case, because I am informed that no deserters or persons evading military service were found in the club.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of having a comprehensive statement, issued at an early date, indicating the Government's plans regarding contemplated changes in the scope and functions of the powers and duties of local authorities?

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of his recent declaration in connection with the nationalisation of the coal industry, he will give a similar undertaking with regard to the recent proposals for the enlargement and alteration of existing local government areas, bearing in mind the representations which have been made to him by national associations of local authorities and the anxiety with which such proposals are viewed by the members of local administrative boards in close touch with public opinion in their respective localities?

I would refer my hon. Friends to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 22nd September in reply to Questions on this subject. I have at present nothing to add to that statement.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware of the concern among local authorities over their uncertainty with regard to many of their present duties and cannot some statement be made which will give them an indication of how to arrange their programmes?

I am sure that if my hon. Friend will look at the reply by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to which I alluded he will see matter completely satisfying any fears of any general overturn of local government.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is great disquietude in various parts of the country because people feel that the administration may be taken away from those in close touch with local affairs and handed to someone who is further off? They are very frightened.

I can assure my hon. Friend that those fears are groundless.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the local authorities are dissatisfied with the Prime Minister's refusal to set up an inquiry before any change was made, and can he give further consideration to that point?

Is it not true that a comprehensive health service, and changes in the education service and in other services will necessitate some alteration in local government administration, and can we be told what is in the mind of the Government upon that point?

Would the Deputy Prime Minister consider giving time to the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Stretford?

asked the Prime Minister whether the Africa Star will be awarded to troops in the Sudan and East Africa who took part in the Abyssinian campaign?

Troops who took part in the campaign will be eligible.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this statement will give very great satisfaction to large numbers of troops who were in great doubt upon that point?

May I ask when we shall get a Debate upon the White Paper which led up to this change?

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister wants to take that Debate himself.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the urgent need for an efficient research department for the assistance of Members of Parliament in carrying out their duties; and whether he is aware that an organisation at the disposal of Members can be made to save an immense amount of work for Ministers and their staffs?

No, Sir. Such a proposal is not practicable.

Is the Minister not aware that more than 50 per cent. of the Questions on the Order Paper could be answered promptly by inquiry at an office formed on the lines which I suggest in my Question, and would not that be a great economy of time for Ministers and for the House?

I should have thought the answer to the hon. Member was that he might take up this proposal with the Ministries concerned, and not have put a Question on the Paper.

Surely hon. Members can get all the information they want by asking questions from the Government?

Have not hon. Members of this House their own ideas to guide them on these matters without getting instructions from others?

I quite agree.