House Of Commons
Tuesday, 7th November, 1944
The House met at Eleven o'clock
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Private Bill Standing Orders
May I, by permission, mention to the House that next Session I propose to ask the Government to consider setting up a Select Committee to revise our Private Bill Standing Orders which have not been revised since 1876. The proposal is in accordance with precedent, and for the convenience of Members I shall shortly be placing in the Library copies of a report made to me by a small committee of officials and others showing how the existing code can be shortened, improved and modernised without any alteration of principle. I propose to amplify this statement at the appropriate time but I thought it my duty to bring the matter to the attention of the House before the end of the present Session.
Oral Answers To Questions
Trade And Commerce
Pottery Industry
1.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the pottery industry was one of the first to be concentrated and suffered more in relation to other industries; if it is intended now to apply a policy of deconcentration in consultation with representatives of all interests concerned; if he will take into account the important contribution that could be made in our export trade and the fact that all materials used are obtained in this country; and if it is intended to organise a planned expansion of the industry in order to ensure the maximum production.
I am most anxious that the pottery industry shall be able to make its full contribution to the expansion of our export trade, in addition to meeting home demands, after the war. I am in consultation with the industry with a view to helping the closed potteries to prepare their premises and plant for re-opening, and, as soon as the progress of the war permits, a start will be made with reopening.
Will my right hon. Friend consider having an investigation made into the efficiency of the industry at the same time?
I am in close touch with both sides of the industry. I have visited the Potteries and my representatives have often been there, and I think we can co-operate together very well.
Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that prices ruling to-day are such that pottery products will find a ready sale abroad without some form of Government assistance?
I think so. We have control over prices in the home market. There is no comparable control over export prices, but British pottery has such a good reputation that it will sell anywhere abroad.
Russia (Consultations)
2.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can make a statement on the consultations and negotiations that have taken place with representatives of the U.S.S.R. on future trade and the result of discussions between various industries or firms and representatives of U.S.S.R. concerns; what are the prospects of credit facilities; and is it intended to obtain the maximum trade between the British Commonwealth and the U.S.S.R.
Discussions are still proceeding, but I cannot yet make a statement. As I have already informed the House, I am anxious to do all I can to secure an expansion of trade with Russia on a firm basis.
Seeing that it is seven months since the U.S.S.R. and United States representatives arrived at an agreement, is it not time that we had a settlement; and is there any truth in the statement which appeared in the "Financial News" that the Foreign Office have raised the debt question, as part of any permanent commercial treaty?
The answer to the second part of the question is that it is news to me, like a lot of other things that appear in the Press. I would advise my hon. Friend not to believe everything that he sees in the Press. I am sure he does not. He is a critical reader of these things. The Government are most anxious to get a commercial agreement with Russia mutually advantageous to ourselves and the Russians.
Having regard to the right hon. Gentleman's enthusiasm for this project, how does it come that out of applications for £35,000 worth of advertising in Russian trade journals £34,000 have been refused, as compared with £60,000 accepted on behalf of American newspapers?
The hon. Member is puting a question quite extraneous to what is on the paper. My only comment is that, in Russia, advertising in the Press is not quite so useful as in certain other countries. The thing to do in Russia is to meet the commissar concerned.
Are the Government bearing in mind in these discussions, the special interests of the herring trade?
Yes, Sir.
Is not this giving of credits to induce foreign countries to buy our goods exactly what children call "playing at shops"?
Rubber Teats
3.
asked the President of the Board of Trade when the promised increased supplies of teats are going to be available; and whether he is aware of the serious situation in which mothers and children are placed because of the continued shortage.
7.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to further complaints of the shortage of rubber teats for feeding bottles in Oxford, despite recent concessions; and if he will take more effective action in this matter.
9.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that there is still an acute shortage of babies' teats in Nottingham; and can he say when supplies will be available.
As I informed my hon. Friend, the Member for Morpeth (Mr. R. J. Taylor), on Tuesday last, the weekly production of teats has now been doubled as compared with the average for July and August, and is still increasing. Larger supplies are now reaching the shops. I have taken steps, in consultation with the manufacturers and distributors, to ensure that supplies are evenly distributed over the country.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is still an acute shortage and that the whole policy with regard to the needs of the home, leads one to the conclusion that he wishes to eliminate women and children? Does he not think that it should be the policy of his Department and the Government to allow them to continue in existence?
Is it not the case that in the North West of England the shortage has been very acute, and that those that are now being supplied are inferior in quality, and will he pay due regard to the quality of the supply?
We are doing our best with the material that is there. The Ministers of Supply and Production have been very co-operative in the matter, but neither they nor I can control the quality of the rubber at this stage of the war. We must do our best with what we have, and that we are trying to do.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, owing to the continued shortage, housewives in one town that I could name are collecting as many as 14 or 15 glass bottles, owing to the fact that shopkeepers will not supply a teat without a bottle?
Fireguards
4.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the difficulty parents experience in obtaining fireguards; and will he take the action necessary to relieve the shortage of such articles.
Yes, Sir. I am glad to say that the production of fireguards has increased by 20 per cent. during the last six months.
Housewives (Clothing Coupons)
5.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will consider the possibility of issuing to mothers, who are housewives, supplementary clothing coupons similar to those issued to industrial workers.
No, Sir. I regret that, while supplies are so short, I cannot see my way to issue any further supplementary coupons.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these mothers use many of their coupons to help out their children's clothing?
Yes, I am sure they do. We have always recognised the value of a family pool so far as coupons are concerned, but there is no purpose in my issuing more coupons unless there is an increase of supplies to meet increased issue, otherwise we should get shortages in the shops and further disappointments.
11.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that, during the period of 23rd October to 28th October, two ladies, stating that they were acting on behalf of his Department, were visiting housewives in West Willesden and demanding to see their clothing coupons, also demanding that information should be given as to the names of the traders with whom coupons had been exchanged for goods; and, in view of the resentment expressed by these housewives, will he explain the reasons for such procedure.
No persons have been authorised by me to make such demands as those mentioned by my hon. Friend, and I think, therefore, that there must have been some misunderstanding. But if my hon. Friend will give me further particulars, I shall be glad to have them investigated.
Children's Plimsolls
8.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that there is still no improvement in the position concerning the lack of children's plimsolls in certain districts; that whole classes of children are now required to do their gym exercises in bare feet on dirty and rough wood floors; and if steps will be taken to issue quotas of these shoes through the schools or, alternatively, pro- vide some substitute footwear immediately.
Owing to the shortage of rubber, it will be some time before there are sufficient supplies of plimsolls for each child to have his own pair. But I have arranged with my right hon. Friends the Minister of Education and the Secretary of State for Scotland to issue permits, on application, to schools to enable them to keep a small pool for loan to physical training classes.
Trade Catalogues (Paper Allocation)
10.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that important British industrial companies who have been accustomed to do large export business are unable to obtain allocations of paper for printing new export catalogues, even for limited distribution to their agents, distributors and large customers abroad; and whether he proposes to take any steps to get this handicap removed.
There is a small allocation of paper for trade catalogues and I am in touch with my right hon. Friends, the Ministers of Supply and Production regarding the possibility of making special provision for catalogues for distribution abroad.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire into the way these applications are handled by his Department? Will he take note of the fact that there is a general impression among manufacturers that their inquiries are not helpfully dealt with and that where smaller supplies are available they are not given a chance of modifying their request?
I will gladly look into any particulars. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will help me by giving me particulars. The present arrangement is that there are 60 tons for every four-monthly period for all trade catalogues. That covers export as well as home catalogues.
Is there any reason why the British export trade should suffer in order that Victor Gollancz may flourish?
United States (Export Subsidies)
12.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has any official information on the plans of the Commodity Credit Corporation of the U.S.A. to provide Government subsidies to increase exports from the U.S.A.
Under the United States Surplus War Property Act, which became law last month, authority is given to the Commodity Credit Corporation to sell for export surplus farm commodities at competitive world prices. No details of the Corporation's plans have yet been published.
Is the House to understand from that that there are not to be any subsidies in connection with these exports of commodities?
I have given the terms of the United States law, which was passed only last month. The farm products, according to our understanding, concern principally raw cotton and wheat. So far, there is no evidence of any intention to subsidise manufactured articles. The subsidisation of farm products may not be to our disadvantage.
Is the House to understand that there is no subsidy of raw cotton?
The House is to understand exactly what I have, I hope, clearly stated.
Seedling Quickthorns (Imports)
14.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that his department has refused to authorise Messrs. Hillier and Sons, of Winchester, to import a supply of seedling quickthorns from Northern Ireland, but has suggested they should apply for a licence to import similar seedlings from Eire; and whether he will reconsider this decision.
There is a shortage of seedling quickthorns both in the United Kingdom and in Northern Ireland, but not, apparently, in Eire. The refusal, to which my hon. Friend refers, was due to a request by the Northern Ireland Government, which desired that all quickthorns imported from Eire into Northern Ireland should be planted in Northern Ireland.
International Cartels
15 and 16.
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether, in reviewing the possibilities of post-war trade, he has under consideration the prevention of agreements between British trading organisations and foreign trading organisations, which will be detrimental to the interests of the British public;
(2) whether he will institute a public inquiry into the operation of cartels and the connection of British firms with foreign firms in the organisation of such trade combinations.As has been previously stated, no public inquiry will be made into this matter. But I hope that it will be possible to introduce legislation next Session on the lines proposed in Paragraph 54 of the White Paper on Employment Policy.
Hearing Aids
17.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the continuing difficulty of obtaining batteries for hearing aids by people who are hard of hearing and the inconvenience caused through this; and if he will take action to remedy this shortage.
I regret that supplies of these batteries have recently been seriously affected as a result of enemy action. But I am glad to say that full production was resumed last month, and the manufacturers are now doing their utmost to catch up arrears.
Is the Minister aware that the difficulty in obtaining new batteries is not in all cases due to shortage, but to the practice of firms holding up orders for many months in order to try to force people to take new contracts for new outfits?
I doubt whether that is very widespread, but if my hon. Friend will give me particulars I will look into it. In this particular case, enemy action affected the production.
Tyres
18.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has considered the conditions attached to discounts offered to big commercial users of tyres by the manufacturers of new tyres; and whether he is satisfied that the condition by which old covers are slit so that they cannot be retreaded when new tyres are delivered is in the national interest.
I have been asked to reply. Under the Tyre Rationing Scheme now in force no discounts are offered to any commercial vehicle user, nor are surrendered tyres slit or mutilated in any way until they have been inspected and found unfit for retreading.
Is my hon. Friend aware that this condition for slitting tyres was commonly inserted in contracts with big commercial users before the war, and that unless the Government do something about it similar conditions will be imposed in future, and what steps will be taken to prevent it?
It is not for my Department to answer that supplementary question.
19.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is now in a position to make a statement on the policy to be followed by the Government after the present tyre control comes to an end; and, in particular, what steps he is taking to prevent the Tyre Manufacturers' Conference from establishing a post-war monopoly in this industry.
I have been asked to reply. Relaxation of control must depend, among other things, upon a freer supply of raw materials which is not yet in sight. I am not aware of any suggestions for the establishment of a post-war monopoly in this industry.
Whether it is for my hon. Friend to reply or not, does he realise that, unless some Member of His Majesty's Government takes an interest in whether a monopoly will be set up or not, all the practices to which I referred in the last Question will be reintroduced? Is it not time that the Government set up some machinery whereby these things can be brought to the light of day?
Answer.
The Ministry of Supply may not be in existence when these things will have to be dealt with.
On a paint of Order. As this Question was put down to the President of the Board of Trade, who has appeared at that Box more than once to deal with this very matter an behalf of the Government, and as the De- partment to which it was transferred says it is not interested in it because it will not be in existence, can it be explained why the Question was transferred from the Board of Trade to the Ministry of Supply?
As far as I am concerned I cannot answer that.
Further, on that point of Order. This Question was put down to the President of the Board of Trade and was transferred to the Minister of Supply. As I am informed that the Minister of Supply cannot give an answer, surely the President of the Board of Trade should reply.
Would I be in Order in dealing with the question why this Question, which was put down to me, was transferred by agreement to the Minister of Supply? The reason was that the tyre control is not under the Board of Trade but under the Ministry of Supply. It was, therefore, considered that it was more appropriate that the Minister of Supply should answer it.
If the tyre control is under the Ministry of Supply, should not my Question whether it will become a monopoly be given an answer?
The point arose from a supplementary and not from the main Question.
Social Insurance (Approved Society Staffs)
20.
asked the Minister without Portfolio whether, in view of the fact that approved societies will be abolished under the social security scheme, what provision will be made for those members of the staffs of such societies now serving in His Majesty's forces entitled, under the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act, 1944, to return to work on discharge.
I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the end of the Debate on 3rd November.
When these men come back from the Forces and do not find their usual employers in existence, will my right hon. and learned Friend's Department employ them?
I cannot add to the observations which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made. We shall endeavour to give them employment, and, if we cannot, we shall sympathetically consider compensation.
British Army
Home Guard
22.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will allow a certain number of rifles and a reasonable supply of ammunition to be retained by companies or platoons of the Home Guard who desire to form themselves into rifle clubs after their disbandment as Home Guard units.
I do not see my way to allow rifles and ammunition to be retained by companies or platoons of the Home Guard for the purpose of rifle shooting. I am, however, considering a scheme which will fulfil the purpose which I think my right hon. Friend has in mind.
When will my right hon. Friend be able to announce the Scheme?
I cannot say, but I will let my hon. Friend know as soon as I can.
25.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the Home Guard auxiliaries are also to receive certificates of service in recognition of their work.
The certificate which will be issued to members of the Home Guard would not be appropriate for the Home Guard auxiliaries, and arrangements are therefore being made to issue a special certificate to them.
Overseas Service (Home Posting)
23.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the case of a non-regular member of Q.A.I.M.N.S. who has served continuously since 16th March, 1940, in India, Persia, Iraq, Egypt and Sinai; whether he is aware that this lady's father died in the winter 1942–43; that her mother is over 70 years of age and that her application for a compassionate posting was refused; and if he will reconsider his decision.
Yes, Sir. The facts of this case were referred to the Commander-in-Chief who, as the hon. Member is aware, has discretion to revert personnel in his command to the Home Establishment on compassionate grounds. The sister will in any case return to this country shortly under the normal arrangements.
Having regard to the fact that the period for the R.A.F. is only two years, could not the Commander-in-Chief ask for a volunteer in such a case as this?
38.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can now make a statement on the granting of compassionate leave from the Middle East to men who are desirous of starting a family.
40.
asked the Secretary of State for War if he can now make a statement on the subject of home posting or leave from overseas for the purpose of starting a family.
42.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is now able to give the House further information on the provision of compassionate leave to men in the Middle East who wish to return home to start a family.
65.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has now received a Report from the Middle East Command on the subject of home posting on matrimonial grounds.
In view of its length I will circulate the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
In view of the fact that this matter has aroused a great deal of concern among Servicemen and their families, and further, as the Business of the House to-day does not appear to be very contentious, could not this Question be answered at the end of Questions?
The answer itself is long, and it will be necessary to print in the OFFICIAL REPORT the text of quite long general routine orders from the Middle East. I do not think it could be read in less than 10 or 15 minutes.
Is it possible to make an arrangement, in the future, to have a discussion, if necessary?
Following is the answer:
Hon. Members will be aware that there are two schemes of repatriation to the Home Establishment from overseas theatres. By far the larger—though it is not as large as I should wish—is that for repatriation on grounds of length of continuous service abroad. The smaller is for re-posting on compassionate grounds. There is, of course, an infinite variety of circumstances which give rise to claims for compassionate re-posting and it has been a matter of great complexity to set up machinery for investigating them and classifying them in order of priority, it being understood that the claims far outnumber the places available. It has all along been made clear that Commands overseas have full discretion to return men or women on compassionate grounds whenever the circumstances are considered to be sufficiently serious to justify this action and undue hardship to the individual or his family cannot otherwise be avoided.
In the middle of this year, Middle East Command found that they were getting a very large number of applications, a great many of which were of a kind that had no chance of succeeding even apart from the limitations of the quota of vacancies. They decided therefore to issue a General Routine Order on the subject setting out both the principles and the procedure according to which applications would be dealt with. In an Appendix to the Order was included a classification of the main types of case which could arise for the guidance of Commanding Officers of units. This was in effect a reproduction of a table originally produced by the War Office and sent to Commands both for guidance and for ease of communication of the results of any investigations undertaken by the War Office in this country. Commanding Officers in the Middle East Force were instructed to bring the Order to the notice of their units by means of a Notice Board Information. The text of the Order and of this Appendix are contained in Annex I and III to this statement.
The publication of the Order had the desired effect of reducing the number of applications that had no chance of success except in one particular, namely, cases falling into the category "desire for children." Perhaps I should say that the military authorities did not just think up this category. For months past the War Office has had a considerable number of applications on this count, so it naturally had to be included in any classification sent out for the guidance of Commands. Anyhow in this category the number of applications increased very considerably and Middle East Command found themselves in a position whether their machinery was being swamped. After consultation with the Compassionate Posting Committee, which includes other ranks as well as officers and has on it a Chaplain and a Doctor, and with the local representatives of the Soldiers', Sailors' and Airmen's Families Association, Middle East Command decided to issue a further order (Annex II to this statement) imposing conditions on applications of this nature. I have no doubt this was due to a desire to avoid disappointment as much as possible and in the interests of strict equity. It is clear after the event, however, that the terms of this Order are such as are liable to offend the susceptibilities of some people though—as my postbag shows—by no means of all, and that they also are such as are capable of being easily misrepresented. I have suggested to the Commander-in-Chief therefore that the second Order should be withdrawn. But it is clear that the withdrawal of the Order could not mean an increase in the number of applications entertained under this head and that, in fact, the Posting Committee would either have to adjudicate on such applications very much in accordance with the terms of the Order or to come to the conclusion that all applications under this head should be automatically rejected—which would be a pity.
ANNEX I.
G.O. 878. POSTINGS TO THE HOME ESTABLISHMENT ON COMPASSIONATE GROUNDS.
General Order 684 of 1943 is hereby cancelled.
1. Object.
The object of this General Order is to explain:
2. General Policy.
Commands overseas have full discretion without previous reference to the War Office to return on compassionate grounds any officer, soldier or auxiliary eligible for posting to the U.K. wherever the circumstances are considered to be sufficient to justify this action. The number despatched to the U.K. on compassionate grounds each month must necessarily be limited, and for this reason priority will be given to the most urgent cases in accordance with Appendix "A".
In order to implement the above policy a Compassionate Posting Committee is in existence at G.H.Q. having been formed in August, 1943 (this will be referred to in subsequent paras. of this General Order as "the committee"). This committee consists of both officers and other ranks. The committee's decisions on the applications submitted will be final.
One of the essential functions of this committee is the speedy examination of applications, and for this reason the committee is in constant session.
3. Applicability.
The procedure set out in this General Order will apply to all personnel serving with the British Army, British Nursing Service and the A.T.S. whose "natural" home is in the United Kingdom.
It will not apply to personnel of the Indian Army nor to British officers and British other ranks attached to the Indian Army.
4. General Standards.
- Class A—Extreme compassionate case.
- Class B—A very deserving case.
- Class C—A genuine case.
- Class D—A weak case.
It is stressed, however, that this table is to be taken only as a guide, and is reproduced with the primary object of assisting C.Os. in assessing the value of individual applications.
(c) (i) Attention is drawn to paras. 4 (a) and (d) of General Order 646 of 1944, under which personnel who have (a) a break in U.K. exceeding six months or (b) who have served abroad in a civil capacity before enlisting in the Army, may submit applications on compassionate grounds for the consideration of the committee.
(ii) It is pointed out, however, that unless personnel whose break in U.K. exceeds six months have additional reasons of a compassionate nature similar to those shown at Appendix "A." or the period served abroad prior to the break was extensive, the applications are unlikely to be approved.
(iii) Cases submitted on the grounds of split civil and military service abroad will be dealt with strictly on their merits and subject to the limitations of the last sentence of sub-para. (ii) above.
5. Verification of Applications.
6. Procedure for Verification.
7. Submission of Applications.
Applications for posting to the Home Establishment on compassionate grounds come under two headings:
Applications originated in the U.K.
The following action will be taken by G.H.Q. on receipt of notification from the War Office that an application for reversion to the U.K. of an officer, soldier or auxiliary serving in the Middle East has been made to them. If the case is placed by the War Office in Class "A" or Class "B," the unit will be immediately notified and instructions given that, if the officer, soldier or auxiliary concerned is desirous of return to the U.K., he or she will be immediately despatched to his or her base depot to await onward passage to the U.K.
If the War Office notification puts the application in Class "C" or "D," the unit concerned will be notified accordingly. A brief statement of the grounds will be included and the unit asked to submit an application to G.H.Q. for consideration by the committee. This case will then be examined by the committee in the normal manner and the decision notified in accordance with para. 8 below.
In the event of an application being rejected on the evidence submitted at the time and subsequent evidence being received which strengthens the case, the application may be resubmitted to the committee.
Applications originated in the Middle East.
All applications will be submitted direct to G.H.Q. (officers' applications to A.G.2 (b), other ranks' applications to O.2E.), in original, only.
Each application submitted to G.H.Q. must be summarised on the pro-forma reproduced at Apprendix "C" to this General Order. It is essential that all details are carefully and correctly stated. One certified true copy of all corroborative evidence only will be included with each application.
Unless applications are correctly submitted to G.H.Q., they will be returned forthwith to units, and will not be examined by the committee until they are resubmitted in the correct manner as defined above.
8. Notification of the Committee's decision.
The committee's decisions are notified immediately after each meeting as follows:-
(a) Successful applications.
As soon as applications are approved personnel will be called in to their respective base depots under instructions issued by G.H.Q. (A.G.2. (b) for officers and O.2E. for other ranks), to await onward passage to the U.K.
(b) Deferred applications.
Applications deferred for further evidence will be retained at G.H.Q. to await the arrival of additional evidence, when the committee will reconsider the cases.
(c) Rejected applications.
Units will be notified of applications rejected and such applications will be retained at G.H.Q. Should further supporting evidence subsequently become available it will be forwarded to either A.G.2 (b) or 0.2E. for further consideration with the original application.
9. Despatch to U.K.
Personnel who are posted to the Home Establishment on compassionate grounds will be despatched to U.K. by sea as and when opportunity occurs. It is, however, sometimes possible for personnel to return by air. This possibility is carefully watched by the committee, and when opportunity occurs the most urgent cases are despatched in this manner, but there is no guarantee of air passage even for these cases.
10. Submission of W.P.Rs. and Authority.
On arrival at base depots Waiting Passage Returns will be submitted to Mov. 6(S), G.H.Q. quoting the G.H.Q. reference authorising despatch. This reference will also be quoted on the A.F. W5133, which is the individual officer's, other rank's or auxiliary's authority for return to the U.K. No further individual authority is necessary. (General Order 704 of 1944 refers.)
11. Arrival in U.K.
12. A summary of this General Order is No. in the series, "NOTICE BOARD INFORMATION."
ANNEX II
G.O. 959 COMPASSIONATE POSTINGS TO HOME ESTABLISHMENT.
Reference General Order 878 of 1944, Appendix "A," para. 7 B (i).
ANNEX III.
Note.—The examples given below cover the most frequent types of cases, but do not pretend to be exhaustive and are issued as a general guide to Commanders overseas of the standards which will qualify for classification in W.O. reports.
| Category. | Class "A" An extreme compassionate case. | Class "B" A very deserving case. | Class "C" A genuine case. | Class "D" A weak case. |
| 1. Illness of wife | (i) The wife is dangerously ill or dying and there is a reasonable prospect of arrival in sufficient time. | (i) As in "A", but arrival in time unlikely. | Where the wife is seriously ill but likely to recover slowly in the ordinary course. No children. | The illness is not of a serious nature, or is chronic and the wife was in that condition when the husband went abroad. |
| (ii) The return of the husband may assist recovery. | (ii) Where there are children under 16 needing care and the wife is seriously ill. | |||
| 2. Illness of parent | (i) The parent is the only survivor and the son or daughter is an only child. | The illness is due to enemy action or public service and the parents are the next of kin. | The parents are largely dependent on the child for their livelihood. | Other sons or daughters of a useful age are available, or where the condition existed when the child proceeded overseas. |
| (ii) Both parents are in need of care and no suitable relative is available. | ||||
| (iii) The return of the son or daughter is essential to save life or reason. | ||||
| 3. Illness of child | The parent's presence is essential to save life or reason. | (i) The mother is seriously distracted. | The illness is likely to be permanent or of long duration and the child is an only one. | Recurrent illnesses amongst weakly children. |
| (ii) An only child is dangerously ill. | ||||
| 4. Death of wife | Return of husband is essential to provide adequate care of children. | Return of husband is very desirable in the children's interests. | Where the wife's death has seriously complicated private affairs which cannot be dealt with by correspondence. | The death of a childless wife. |
| 5. Death of parent | The other parent is destitute and no competent near relative is available. | The death has seriously and materially worsened the family's circumstances. | The health of the other parent has serious deteriorated. | The qualifications under "A", "B" or "C" are not fulfilled. |
| 6. Death of child | (i) Only child and death was due to an accident or enemy action. | Only child, death due to natural causes. | Where there are other children but the mother's grief has seriously affected her care of them. | The mother's desire for comfort, or the husband's desire to give it. |
| (ii) Mother distracted to an extent liable to affect reason. |
| Category. | Class "A" An extreme compassionate case. | Class "B" A very deserving case. | Class "C" A genuine case. | Class "D" A weak case. |
| 7. Desire for children | (i) Death of an only child. | (i) The spouses have been separated for three years by service abroad and there are no children, the wife being able to bear. | The wife is reaching an age when child-bearing would be difficult or unlikely. | (i) To add to an existing family. |
| (ii) Where the return of the husband is necessary to the wife's health. | (ii) A long-standing engagement. | (ii) To start a family where there has already been 12 months' sterile co-habitation. | ||
| (iii) The wife is threatened with an operation precluding pregnancy. | ||||
| 8. Infidelity … | The wife is mentally unstable or neglects her children. | (i) The wife is subject to exceptional temptation. | The wife is penitent, asks for her husband's return and both parties desire full reconciliation. | To enable the husband to decide whether to take divorce proceedings, which the wife does not desire. |
| (ii) The prospects of reconciliation are compromised by the hostility of a third party. | ||||
| 9. Domestic hardship. | (i) Family of six or more where children are out of control. | Family of six or more—the father has served three years continuously abroad and the wife desires her husband's return. | The family, although not out of control, the father's presence is very desirable. | War-time conditions of a normal character. |
| (ii) Serious criminal charge against the wife. | ||||
| 10. Business | (i) The individual serving abroad is head or director of a pre - enlistment family business and return is essential to save it, the family being mainly dependent upon it. | The officer, soldier, etc., would obtain a period of release, were he or she at home. | Dishonesty of a partner or head employee, imperilling pre-enlistment business. | A business acquired by the wife since her husband's enlistment or call up. |
| (ii) Presence is essential on legal grounds. | ||||
| 11. Other private affair. | Where presence is essential to avoid undue hardship, or on legal grounds. | Where presence will save delays which, if permitted, will cause undue hardship. | Where presence is desirable to avoid future serious difficulties. | Where these are not of a pressing nature or can be met by correspondence or power of attorney. |
Desertion Charge
26.
asked the Secretary of State for War if he will inquire into the circumstances that led to the wife and parents of 184185 W /Corporal R. F. Holmes, R.F.G., now serving overseas with an R.A.S.C., Infantry Brigade Company, being visited on two occasions by civil and military police at Sunningwell, Berkshire, on the ground that this soldier was a deserter; what action has been taken to rectify this mistake; and what form of restitution for the suffering and anxiety caused is made in such cases.
Inquiries into this case are now being made.
Pay And Allowances
27.
asked the Secretary of State for War if the recent advance in pay granted to members of His Majesty's Forces is extended to personnel who may be prisoners of war or are listed as missing.
Yes, Sir.
Quartering Officers
28.
asked the Secretary of State for War what reduction has been made both in London and the country, in the number of quartering officers.
No reduction has yet taken place in the number of quartering commandants or their assistants in London or in the country, as there has been no appreciable reduction in the amount of work which these officers are called upon to do.
Claims Commission
29.
asked the Secretary of State for War what reduction has been made in the altered home circumstances in the staff, officers and others of the staff of the Claims Commission in this country both in London and the country, respectively.
The staff of the Claims Commission, like all other War Office branches, is under constant review. There has, in fact, been a small decrease in the staff of the Commission but in general the volume of its work has not yet appreciably declined and a drastic reduction in its staff now would only delay the settlement of claims.
If the services of these officers are being dispensed with, will they be given every assistance to find other suitable employment?
That is quite a different question. My hon. Friend had better put it down.
Ats Officers (Tropical Kit)
30.
asked the Secretary of State for War if he will give a list of the articles of tropical kit considered necessary for A.T.S. officers going to India and S.E.A.C.; what is the present cost of these articles in India and in England; and to what extent this cost is covered by the allowance of £15.
A.T.S. officers are given a grant-in-aid of £55 towards the cost of their outfit. When they go to certain stations overseas they are entitled to a further grant-in-aid of £10. This amount takes into account that officers maintain their uniform out of their pay and that they are therefore likely at any particular time to be replacing various articles. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend (Miss Ward) on 31st October, the A.T.S. officers who are going to India are on loan with the Women's Auxiliary Corps (India) and receive a grant of about £15 under Indian Regulations.
But my right hon. Friend has not answered my Question. Would he give information as to the articles of tropical kit which are necessary for an officer of the A.T.S. going to a tropical climate?
There is no authoritative list in this matter. There is no prescribed list, no list which is said to be necessary. The officers are only advised to take certain articles.
What articles are they advised to take?
Could not the Minister put a set of them in the lady Members' room so that they can report on them?
Would it not be a good thing if my right hon. Friend found out how much the money will buy?
Courts-Martial (Convening)
32.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether there is on record any case in which the Treasury Solicitor has been requested to advise the officer responsible for convening a court-martial on serving officers; whether a court-martial was warranted by the summary of evidence.
I have not been able to trace any case in which the officer responsible for convening a court-martial on an Army officer has consulted the Treasury Solicitor on a question of this kind. But when an offence has been committed by a member of the Forces of a kind which can be tried either by a civil court or by court-martial under Section 41 of the Army Act, it is quite usual for consultation to take place between the Judge Advocate General or his representative and the civil legal officer who would be concerned if the accused were tried in a civil court.
Yes, but if a summary of evidence has already been taken and furnished to the Judge Advocate General, is there any case in the whole of the War Office records of a civilian solicitor having been called in to "vet" the decision of the Judge Advocate General?
That question involves research and I shall have to ask my hon. Friend to put it down. I cannot answer it off-hand.
Chaplains (Pay)
34 and 35.
asked the Secretary of State for War (1) on what grounds the Army Council has decided that the case for an increase of pay for army chaplains has not been made out; and if, in arriving at this decision, it took the advice of the Inter-Denominational Advisory Committee on Chaplaincy Services;
(2) if he is aware that Army chaplains have done, and are doing, fine service in battle in North-west Europe, Italy and North Africa, that on the average they are older than combatant officers of corresponding ranks, their domestic responsibilities are likely to be greater and most of them have spent many years at the university; and why, in view of the few chances of promotion in the Royal Army Chaplains Department, the pay of the chaplain 4th Class, ranking as captain, for the first three years of his service is only 15s. 4d. a day as compared with an A.E.C. captain at 22s. 8d. and a R.A.M.C. captain at 24s. 6d.
I will, with permission, Sir, answer this Question and No. 35 together, and in view of its length circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply that I expect, I beg to give notice that I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
Following is the answer:
The considerations mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member in the latter Question are, of course, well known to me, and I am glad to take this opportunity of adding another acknowledgment to the many which the fine work of Army chaplains has so justly earned. An Army chaplain enters the service with the equivalent rank of a captain and with pay at 15s. 4d. a day, increased to 18s. 2d. a day after three years' service, with a captain's allowances in each case. The ordinary combatant officer obtains his commission as a 2nd Lieutenant, almost invariably after a period of service in the ranks, with pay at 11s. 0d. a day, and as a lieutenant with three years' service he receives pay of 14s. 6d. day. Royal Army Medical Corps and Army Educational Corps officers enter the service as subalterns. The pay of an Army Educational Corps captain is 19s. 0d. a day and not 22s. 8d. The rates I have quoted are exclusive of the recently approved War Service increments.
It would be impossible and inappropriate to attempt to assess the value of an Army chaplain's services in terms of money, but, in comparison with the pay of other officers generally, and with the remuneration of clergymen in civil life, the Army Council were satisfied that they would not be justified in asking for an increase in the present rates of Army chaplains' pay. Before arriving at this conclusion, they were fully informed of the discussion at the Inter-Denominational Advisory Committee on the matter.
Mobile Canteens (Italy)
43.
asked the Secretary of State for War how many mobile caneens are at present operating in the Eighth Army area in Italy.
There are now 97 mobile canteens in Italy run by N.A.A.F.I. and the voluntary bodies. A further 60 N.A.A.F.I. mobile canteens are to be despatched in the next few months. The Supreme Allied Commander decides where they are to operate and I regret I do not know how many there are in the area of the Eighth Army.
Despatches (Publication)
47.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will now consider the publication of despatches received from Commanders-in-Chief in the Field.
The position is as stated in the reply given to my hon. Friend on 2nd November, 1943, to which I have nothing to add.
May I ask my right hon. Friend whether this decision not to publish despatches from general Officers Commanding in the Field is one taken by the Prime Minister; and can my right hon. Friend say why Parliament is denied the opportunity of reading the despatches sent by these Commanders, as was done on every occasion during the last war?
The decision is made, of course, by His Majesty's Government. The other points I answered in my previous reply to my hon. Friend.
My right hon. Friend has not answered the main part of my Question, which was, Why have these despatches been withheld from the public in a way in which they were not withheld in the last war?
If my hon. Friend will look at the previous Question to which I have referred, he will find that he put a supplementary question in almost identical terms.
While there may be valid reasons on grounds of security for not publishing recent despatches, will my right hon. Friend consider the publication of despatches relating to the early part of the war?
I am quite prepared to consider the matter, but as we are at present advised, it is not considered advisable, because it would give information to the enemy.
I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.
Evacuated Dependants (Rent Allowance)
57.
asked the Secretary of State for War why a discrimination is made in the matter of 3s. 6d. rent allowance made to wives of men serving in the Forces, as between those who were evacuated from London on account of flying bombs and those who evacuated on account of the aeroplane bombardment: and will he take steps to place both classes of evacuees upon a footing of equality.
I made it clear in my reply to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the North Division of East Ham (Lieut.-Colonel Mayhew) and my hon. Friend the Member for Plaistow (Mr. Thorne) on 1st August, that this concession was a special and purely temporary arrangement. The assumption underlying it is that a family evacuated in a hurry during the period of the flying bomb menace could not, at short notice, sub-let, store their furniture, etc., whereas families who left London earlier on account of aircraft bombardment, and who have not yet returned, are not likely to be in the same difficulty.
Is the Minister aware that there is no difference in the economic positions of the evacuees, and that the only difference is one of date?
That difference of date, which may amount to as much as four years, makes a very considerable difference.
Forces, Italy (Mails)
58.
asked the Secretary of State for War, whether he is aware that ordinary mail to troops in Italy takes up to two months; and whether he will take steps to reduce this period.
Surface mail to Italy took on the average 25 days in July, and 28 days in August to reach the base in Italy from the Army Postal Centre in this country. About five days should be added to these times to cover the transit to the Postal Centre, and from the base to the unit in the forward areas. These are, as I said, average times. We are trying to improve on the timings generally.
War Office (Staff)
60.
asked the Secretary of State for War the number of officers employed in his Department on 3rd September, 1939, and 3rd September, 1944, respectively.
On 31st August, 1939, there were about 690 military officers on the War Office establishment. On 30th September of this year there were 2,829. The number of civilians in equivalent posts on those dates was approximately 340 and 1,642.
66.
asked the Secretary of State for War how many officers are employed in his Department on Home Guard duties.
Two officers are employed entirely on Home Guard work. Twenty-six further officers devote varying but appreciable amounts of their time to work directly connected with the Home Guard. These figures include serving officers, retired officers, and civilians of equivalent status.
Is it proposed, in view of the stand-down for the Home Guard, to reduce the amount of work—and, of course, paper work as well—at the Home Office?
As the administration of the Home Guard has been so very largely decentralised, the number of officers in the War Office is comparatively small; but when the process of standing down is completed, the figures will of course be reduced.
Malaria, Seac (Precautions)
61.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether anti-malaria tablets and water-sterilising powder are now available to all ranks who are in need of them in S.E.A.C.
These preparations are supplied to South East Asia Command by India, and, as far as I know, all demands have been met.
Leave (Acting Rank)
67.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider issuing instructions that in Burma and similar theatres of operations where it is being found administratively more convenient to grant leave in periods of one month, the regulation requiring relinquishment of acting rank after absence from the unit of 21 days shall not apply.
As regards officers not subject to Indian Regulations, Commands overseas have, since March, 1942, been authorised to operate a procedure on the lines suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend. I am now inquiring with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India into the position of British Service officers and men serving under Indian Regulations.
Does that apply also to other ranks, on whose behalf my Question was primarily directed?
I am sorry; I read it as applying to officers. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will let me look into that. I do not think that the regulations are in all cases the same.
Ats Private's Death (Inoculation)
68.
asked the Secretary of State for War upon what date the full medical investigation of the circumstances of the death of No. W/271804 Private Beatrice Cook, A.T.S., was carried out; by whom this investigation was undertaken; and whether the results have been communicated to this girl's parents.
A post-mortem examination held at once into the cause of the death of this auxiliary established that she died of anaphylactic shock following an anti-typhoid inoculation. The parents were informed of this. The vaccine used was examined and found normal; but, as I said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for West Willesden (Mr. Viant) on 26th October, a case of this kind is very rare, and, in addition to the report rendered by the Service administrative medical officer directly responsible a day after the auxiliary died, a special medical investigation was, therefore, made by the Deputy Director of Medical Services in the command, to inquire into what had happened. The report reached the War Office on 14th October. This confirmed that the inoculation had been properly carried out by the medical officer, and that she could not be held guilty of negligence. The parents of the auxiliary did not, as far as I know, ask for this information, and they have not been told of it. I should like to take this opportunity to express to them my sincere sympathy.
Russian Ex-Prisoners Of War (Great Britain)
24.
asked the Secretary of State for War what reports he has received from officers in charge of Russian ex-prisoners of war on their work and conduct compared to prisoners of war; what are the nature of the reports; are the Russians being provided with adequate clothing and food; and what is the prospect of their returning home.
A number of the Soviet nationals captured in the course of hostilities in France who have been evacuated to the United Kingdom, have been employed here in agreement with the Soviet authorities. Their work and general conduct have been most satisfactory. They have been provided with adequate clothing and food. Arrangements have already been made for the repatriation of those for whom shipping is available.
Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that these ex-prisoners of war have sufficient interpreters, and that sufficient welfare facilities are given to the camps?
I think that the arrangements for repatriation have covered most of the prisoners. There was difficulty at first about interpreters, but that has now been solved. As far as welfare factors are concerned, there have been considerable discussions, between British and Soviet military authorities in this country.
Africa Star (Mtc)
31.
asked the Secretary of State for War what were the reasons for which the Africa Star was refused to the members of the M.T.C. who were the first women's unit to serve in the Middle East.
This unit of the M.T.C. was never part of the Army and the organisation itself was never recognised by the Army. This does not mean that the duties they performed in Egypt were not most useful but the help they gave did not differ in essence from that rendered by many civilians working with the Middle East Forces during that time.
In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of that reply I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.
British Prisoners Of War (Parcels)
33.
asked the Secretary of State for War when the last consignment of prisoner-of-war parcels were shipped from Lisbon to Marseilles; and what is the cause of the continued delay in the transport of the 1,500,000 parcels from Lisbon to Geneva and also of the delay in the transport of parcels from Götenburg to Germany.
The answer to the first part of the Question is that Red Cross shipping between Lisbon and Marseilles was suspended after 16th May last, owing to the development and consequences of operations in the Mediterranean area and subsequently in Southern France. Four British Red Cross ships due to leave on 6th November should have sailed by now from Lisbon as a result of the re-opening of Marseilles Harbour and of the railways in Southern France. The inception of transport of Red Cross supplies from Gothenburg to Germany has been hampered by lack of suitable shipping, and the need to secure the combined agreement of the various Governments concerned, including the German Government, as well as the International Red Cross Committee, to special arrangements to make good this deficiency.
Can my right hon. Friend give any estimate as to when these 1,500,000 parcels in Lisbon will be passed to Geneva, as it is essential that a big reserve of parcels should be built up in all the camps? We do not want a situation to recur such as happened in 1940.
A certain amount of caution is required in this proposal to build up reserves in all the camps, because there are stories, which I believe to be true, that the Germans are ordering camps to consume everything on hand. That is the reason for a certain amount of caution. Secondly, arrangements are being made to ship direct from this country, which may be easier than shipping from Lisbon to Marseilles. In consequence, it may be quite a time before the parcels to Lisbon are finally cleared.
In view of the delay, can my right hon. Friend say whether similar delays are experienced in bringing prisoner of war parcels from Germany for German prisoners of war in this country?
I do not think I have any information about that but I will certainly see whether I can get any. In point of fact, as my hon. Friend has referred to delays, I may say that I expect that the Lisbon-Marseilles route has been opened, and the volume of traffic from Marseilles onwards has been started, in such a way as to be beyond anything we could have expected a month ago.
Will my right hon. Friend take the earliest opportunity of reassuring the relatives of prisoners of war, as many of them are definitely anxious that the 1940 situation shall not recur?
As I say, it is beyond the power of His Majesty's Government to control the matter. If the German Government insist, as they have threatened to do, that there shall be no reserves in the camps and that everything shall be sent for immediate consumption, then there will be a good deal of trouble.
Is it not important, therefore, that we should build up reserves at Geneva?
At Geneva, certainly. Everything possible is being done to build up a reserve at Geneva.
Greece (Food Supplies)
37.
asked the Secretary of State for War what plans were made by the British military authorities for introducing relief supplies into Greece immediately following its liberation.
For very many months there has been planning by the British and American military authorities for the shipment of essential relief supplies to Greece at the earliest possible moment. To this end, grain and other commodities have been accumulated and stored by the British authorities in the Middle East, and when the British troops sailed for Greece stocks were immediately called forward as part of the settled plan. Over 60,000 tons of food supplies were so called for- ward and either have been landed or are in the process of shipment.
Are we to understand from that reply that the War Office are continuing, and are likely to continue in the near future at any rate, to be responsible for sending food supplies to Greece? Should the questions be, therefore, addressed to the Secretary of State for War?
I think so, so far as the British end of an Anglo-American liability is concerned.
German Invasion Plans (Eire)
44.
asked the Secretary of State for War approximately how many dossiers of maps, plans, photographs and explanatory notes, prepared with a view to the invasion of Eire by the Germans, were recently discovered in a garage on the outskirts of Brussels.
The material about Eire was contained, so I understand, in about 2,000 booklets and dossiers, containing photographs and town plans, and in about 10,000,000 maps.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to send a copy to the Government of Eire, with the congratulations of His Majesty's Government that Eire has been saved from invasion by the British Fleet and the Royal Air Force?
National Finance
War-Time Budgetary Commitments
48.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he hopes to furnish his promised statement as to increased budgetary commitments resulting from war-time social legislation and in respect of increased debt charges and war pensions.
I would refer my hon. Friend to the information which I circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT on 1st November (columns 811–813).
I was wondering what was in the rest that was not circulated?
I have given my hon. Friend all I can.
Social Insurance (Calculations)
51.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the fact of the recent issue of Exchequer Bonds at 1¾ per cent. less tax and that the actuarial calculation for the social insurance proposals are worked out on a basis of 3 per cent., free of tax, he will prepare and publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a revised estimate on a basis of 1¾ per cent. less tax.
No, Sir. The low rate of interest on a particular short-term issue of Government securities does not vitiate the assumptions made in the social insurance calculations which relate in the main to long-term pensions considerations. The exemption from Income Tax of the investments of social insurance funds is conferred by Statute.
Does not the Chancellor recognise that if the scheme is not sound actuarially, the bottom is knocked out of it?
The point of my answer is that the actuarial basis of the scheme is sound. The rate of interest assumed in the scheme is not comparable with the rate of interest paid in present circumstances on short-dated securities.
Civil Servants (Billeting Allowance)
52.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the increased cost of living during the war and the increase in the cost of household goods which need replacement, he is satisfied that the amount of £1 Is. per week paid in respect of civil servants billeted on householders is a reasonable sum; and whether he will at this stage, review the position and relieve these householders to some extent of a heavy burden of indirect taxation.
The guinea a week paid in respect of civil servants billeted on householders is intended to provide for accommodation and two meals a day. The payment made to billetors in respect of civil servants is comparable with that paid in respect of other classes of billetees and I see no reason for its alteration.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that great disatisfaction exists amongst householders in towns where civil servants are posted, especially those who have linen goods worn out, and crockery broken? These are expensive and hard to replace, and these householders think they are being badly treated.
I am alive to these considerations, but I have pointed out that this question refers only to one class of the large numbers of persons who are billeted at the public expense.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when the Minister of Labour sends a workman from one town to another, he allows 24s. lodging allowance? Will the Chancellor be at least as generous as his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, in dealing with the category mentioned in this Question?
I indicated in my reply the limited scope of the provision which is covered by this amount.
Excess Profits Tax (Standards)
53.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, he will, in view of the anomalies arising out of the substitute standards for Excess Profits Tax and the adverse effects on the position of the development areas, set up a committee to investigate the whole position.
I cannot see my way to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion for a committee to consider E.P.T. standards. I am not clear what anomalies she has in mind, but if she will send me a note of the representations which she desires to make, I will give them careful consideration.
Am I to understand that my right hon. Friend has had no representations from any industrialist in any of the development areas on this matter?
What my hon. Friend is entitled to deduce from my reply is that I consider that the examination of such representations is, primarily, a matter for me, and not for some committee.
Is the Chancellor aware that these industries, situated in what were called the distressed areas, are at a disadvantage as against industries in other areas, who at that time were trading with enemy countries and making big profits, and as a result they have big profits guaranteed in the war, so that the distressed areas are bound to become more distressed than at the present time?
I think the question of distressed areas is a separate matter.
Sterling Balances
49.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish a White Paper furnishing full particulars of the sterling balances now standing to the credit of Empire and Allied countries and their relationship to our expenditure and debt position.
No, Sir. While totals have been published it would not be in the public interest to publish details at the present time.
Would my right hon. Friend give me some indication of when this great secret will be revealed? The other people know about it.
I do not think they do. It is important to understand the nature of these balances. They are not, in the main, inter-Governmental at all, and they do not figure in the public accounts. They represent an accumulated adverse balance in most cases.
50.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer in what bank or banks the sterling balances belonging to Empire and Allied countries are kept.
I am assured that these balances are held with the usual banking correspondents of their owners, but it would not be right for me to institute special inquiry with a view to making the particulars public.
Could my right hon. Friend indicate which of our joint stock banks is now showing an accumulation of about £3,000,000,000 of deposits above its normal deposits?
It is not necessarily in joint stock banks at all.
Why is it that the Bank of England reveal the fact that they hold many hundreds of million pounds of Treasury bills?
I think my hon. Friend knows that the relations between bank and client are regarded as confidential.
Polish Relief Funds (Transfer)
54.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury why the Polish Red Cross in London has been refused permission to send funds to the International Red Cross in Geneva for relief of distress in Poland; and whether it is possible to reverse this decision.
At the request of the Polish Government, His Majesty's Government have made the sum of 800,000 Swiss francs available to them for the purchase of goods in Switzerland to be sent to Poland through the International Red Cross for the relief of distress there, and I am informed that this amount is not yet exhausted. There seemed, therefore, to be no reason to make further Swiss francs available to the Polish Red Cross.
Hansard, Bound Volumes (Members Of Parliament)
55.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will consider again issuing free bound volumes of HANSARD to such Members as desire them.
No, Sir. The discontinuance of the free supply of bound volumes of HANSARD to Members was a recommendation of the Select Committee on Publications and Debates Reports which was approved by Mr. Speaker and announced by him in the House on 26th June, 1940. The Report of the Committee for 1943–44 published very recently shows that the Committee again considered the matter as late as 12th October and did not advise a reversal of the decision.
Would even the most insignificant Government official tolerate a position whereby he has to buy necessary reference books?
This was a decision based upon a recommendation of a Select Committee of this House. The matter was reconsidered as late as 12th October last, and the Select Committee took a Division upon this matter. The hon. and gallant Member for Ormskirk (Commander King-Hall), who is a great protagonist of free HANSARD, was in a minority of one in that Division. In those circumstances, it would seem rather absurd for the Treasury to ignore the recommendations of the Select Committee.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the publication, after the war, of all those volumes that have not been issued to hon. Members, so that those Members who are keeping them may have a complete record?
That is a different matter.
Would my right hon. Friend discuss with the Minister of Supply the whole question of paper supplies in this House, in view of the fact that it is quite ridiculous that Members should be inundated with absolutely useless stuff which is sent in the post, time after time, when we cannot get the important and very essential bound copies of HANSARD?
If I may reply to my hon. Friend's first question, that is a question of binding facilities, as against paper supply. They are really two quite different questions.
Is it not a fact that six months ago the House was told that only something like 10 per cent., or about 60, Members bought their HANSARD at a cost of about £5 a year? Surely that is placing a premium against people, who are unable to afford these volumes and are thus deprived of the materials with which to do their work?
May I ask the Leader of the House whether, in view of the fact that this Report was only in the nature of a recommendation to this House, this House might have an opportunity of considering the Report?
Is it not a fact that Peers get their bound copies of HANSARD free?
I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.
Friendly Societies
56.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many registered and non-registered friendly societies there are in the United Kingdom; the number of their members; and the total income for the year ended December, 1943.
I have no information concerning unregistered friendly societies. As to registered friendly societies in Great Britain, the latest available figures are for 1942. The number of societies, including branches of orders but excluding collecting friendly societies, is 18,987. The number of members is 8,570,000, and the total income £21,100,000. With regard to collecting societies, the number of societies is 147, but no figures for membership can be given, only the number of assurances, which is 28,260,000. The total income is £22,000,000.
Imperial War Graves Commission Staffs (France And Belgium)
63.
asked the Secretary of State for War how soon gardeners and others in the service of the Imperial War Graves Commission will be allowed to rejoin their families in France and Belgium; and whether, in the meantime, the families are receiving financial aid.
The Commission are now in consultation with the French and Belgian authorities with a view to the return of the Commission's staff to France and Belgium at the earliest possible date. The answer to the second part of the Question is, Yes, Sir.
Will my right hon. Friend agree that a British subject with a prewar job and a pre-war wife in France or Belgium ought to have the same priority for his return, as Frenchmen and Belgians, some of whom have already returned?
I do not think that that question is one for me.
Enemy Prisoners Of War
64.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, under the Geneva Convention, it is customary for prisoners of war to be ordered to work, provided the work is not of a military character.
The Geneva Convention permits the detaining Power to employ as workmen other-rank prisoners of war who are physically fit, provided that the work done by prisoners of war has no direct connection with the operations at the war and is not dangerous or unhealthy. Non-commissioned officers who are prisoners of war may be compelled to do only supervisory work, and officers may only be employed if they volunteer.
Will my right hon. Friend convey that information to the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham and Worthing (Earl Winterton), so that he will not make errors on questions of fact in this House again?
70.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that in East Anglia Service men have been refused entry to cinemas which were already full and that Italian prisoners were already in the audience, which led in one case to disturbances; and whether he can make arrangements to prevent Italian prisoners from attending cinemas in districts where there is not enough room for British and United Nations subjects.
I am not aware of any such incidents. Instructions have been in force for some time that cinema managers should be consulted as to the number of Italians who can attend any performance.
Naafi (Advertisements)
69.
asked the Secretary of State for War with what object advertisements of N.A.A.F.I. clubs are appearing in newspapers, such as "The Times"; whether these advertisements are being made free of charge; and, if not, whether the necessary publicity could be achieved by publishing the relevant facts in routine orders at appropriate intervals.
These advertisements are intended to show what is being done in this way not only to members of all three Services throughout the country, but also to the general public, which has shown itself so keenly interested in the welfare of Service men. This object could not be achieved in the way suggested by my Noble and gallant Friend.
Scotland
Prisons (Staffing)
71.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that a woman prison officer at Aberdeen Prison has been called upon to take control of a male prisoner in the prison kitchen; whether this arrangement is in accordance with Prison Regulations; and, if not, in what circumstances this departure from them was authorised.
Male prisoners in Scottish prisons are never controlled by women officers. At Aberdeen prison it has been the practice, when women prisoners are not available, for male prisoners to assist two women officers in the kitchen and laundry. These prisoners work under the immediate supervision of a male officer, except during brief intervals while the latter is on patrol. These arrangements, which are of long standing, have not previously given rise to any difficulty, but, in view of a recent report from the prison governor, steps are being taken to terminate the practice.
Surely, if there is one department in the world where a woman officer can be expected to take control, it is in the kitchen?
72.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that an officer was recently seriously assaulted in Edinburgh Prison by three prisoners, and that at the time of the assault the officer was working entirely alone; and whether, in view of this further evidence of the consequences of the staffing shortage in the Scottish prison service, he will take urgent action to have additional staff provided.
Yes, Sir, I regret that an officer was recently assaulted in Edinburgh Prison in the circumstances referred to. The particular duty on which he was engaged had for many years been allocated to a single officer, but steps are being taken to obtain the staff necessary to ensure that in all prisons a second officer is always available when prisoners are being released from their cells.
Will my right hon. Friend cast his inquiries a little further, and go into the whole question of stall in prisons in Scotland; because this is not the first assault attributable to shortage of staff?
As the hon. Member is aware, there are great difficulties at the moment in the way of procuring the necessary staff. I think he would be well advised to let us take this first step in the meantime.
Local Authorities (Pension Increases)
73.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he can make any statement as to the progress made by local authorities in Scotland in the payment of the increased rates of pension authorised by the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1944, to retired local government officers.
I have no reason to suppose that there has been delay on the part of any local authorities in giving effect to the provisions of the Act; but if my hon. and gallant Friend wishes me to enquire into the position in any particular area I shall be glad to do so.
Small Burghs (Rates)
74.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that since the passing of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1929, the Fife small burghs have been requisitioned by the county council to pay large sums, for which they have not received adequate services in return; and if he will consider introducing amending legislation.
I have received representations regarding rate increases in several local government areas, and I am at present obtaining particulars of the rates being fixed for the year 1944–45 by local authorities throughout all Scotland. When the returns for which I have asked are complete, I shall consider the position and consult with the associations of local authorities.
Is the Minister not aware that this is merely a spurious agitation on the part of small burghs, and that they are getting full value for all the services for which they are paying?
It is not only the small burghs that are making representations, or whose rates are increasing. All I say here is that we are asking tor particulars.
Is the Minister aware that the small burghs are very deeply concerned in this matter, and will welcome a very full investigation into the whole position by my right hon. Friend himself?
rose—
The hon. Member cannot pursue the matter further now.
Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903 (Advertisements)
75.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from the Scottish Newspaper Proprietors Association for an amendment to Section 17 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903; and whether he will take steps to ensure that adequate notice is given locally to applications for certificates.
Yes, Sir. The Scottish Newspaper Proprietors' Association has made representations that the statutory time table for the grant of license certification may make it impossible for two advertisements to appear in their local newspapers. The association has been informed that the point has been noted for consideration in connection with any amending legislation.
Coal Industry
Mines Department (Annual Report)
78.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will consider the restoration for 1944 and succeeding years of the pre-war annual report of the Mines Department covering a similar range of statistical and factual information relating to the mining industry and to its administration.
As my hon. friend knows, the publication of Departmental annual reports was suspended in 1940 by general decision, as a war economy measure. That decision still holds good. My hon. Friend will appreciate, however, that the statistical digest issued by my Department in July last gives the salient statistics of the coal industry for the war years, and my right hon. Friend proposes to supplement this information from time to time.
Will the Minister tell the House how far he expects supplementation to be provided, say, for this year or for next year?
I think my hon. Friend knows that, in addition to the annual digest published by my Ministry, the more important statistics are given in the Board of Trade Journal. A Parliamentary White Paper is to be issued.
When is it to be issued?
I am not quite sure, but I think in the immediate future.
United States Mission (Report)
79.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will publish the report of the American mining delegation who visited and reported upon mining methods in the British coalfields this year, in order that this House may be fully informed in preparation for a Parliamentary discussion of the recommendations made to him.
My right hon. Friend has nothing to add to the reply which he gave on this subject on 17th October to the hon. Member for Wallsend (Miss Ward).
Is the Minister aware that the details of this report have been made known in the American Press; and, in view of that fact, does he not think that those who are particularly interested in the industry here should have similar information available to them?
As my hon. and gallant Friend will appreciate, the decision not to publish was taken by the Government for reasons given by my right hon. Friend. That being so, there is nothing I can add on the matter.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary convey to the Minister the necessity of administering some corrective to the reports passed from the American Press to the Press of this country, which may be very misleading?
I will convey that to my right hon. Friend.
Does the Minister not consider it unfair to the coalowners of the country that they should be unable to answer the very grave charges which are made against them in the report?
Can the Minister say how many weeks the delegation spent in this country?
Not offhand.
Statistics
80.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power the quantity of coal mined and raised and the tonnage disposals for each of the half-yearly periods from 1st May to 1st November and from 1st November to 1st May, from May, 1939, to 1st November, 1944; with separate figures showing output and disposals from opencast workings from November, 1941, to 1st November, 1944; and the total sum expended in opencast prospecting and mining during the same period.
As the answer to the Question contains a statement of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. With regard to opencast workings, I am informed by my Noble Friend, the Minister of Works, that the output over the period November, 1941, to November, 1944, was 13,360,000 tons. Disposals amount to approximately 10,500,000 tons. The total expenditure on opencast operations over the same period was £25,000,000. This covers prospecting, including the proving of considerable coal resources not yet won, excavation, royalties, compensation, operation of screening and trading plants, stocking and transport; and capital expenditure on screening plants and railway loading services.
Does the answer mean that this covers all expenses for these purposes?
Does it also include the very large salaries paid by the Ministry of Works to people who supervise, amounting, roughly, to £250,000?
I think so, but I will look into that matter.
Following is the answer:
| — | May, 1939 to October, 1939 (incl.). | November, 1939 to April, 1940 (incl.). | May, 1940 to October, 1940 (incl.). | November, 1940 to April, 1941 (incl.). | May, 1941 to October 1941 (incl.). | November, 1941 to April 1942 (incl.). | May, 1942 to October, 1942 (incl.). | November, 1942 to April 1943 (incl.). | May, 1943 to October 1943 (incl.). | November, 1943 to April, 1944 (incl.). | May, 1944 to October 1944 (incl.). * |
Mined Coal
| Million Tons. | ||||||||||
| Production | 113·8 | 116·0 | 114·3 | 99·7 | 104·9 | 101·9 | 101·7 | 100·7 | 96·0 | 93·6 (provisional) | 93·2 |
| Withdrawal from (+) or addition to (-) colliery stocks. | Not available | -0·5 | +0·5 | -0·1 | +0·5 | +0·1 | +0·1 | +0·1 | — | +0·2 | — |
| Available for disposal | 113·8 | 115·5 | 114·8 | 99·6 | 105·4 | 102·0 | 101·8 | 100·8 | 96·0 | 93·8 | 93·2 |
| Less—Colliery Consumption | 5·9 | 6·3 | 6·1 | 6·1 | 6·0 | 6·2 | 5·9 | 6·0 | 5·7 | 5·7 | 5·4 |
| Miners Coal | 2·1 | 2·6 | 2·2 | 2·5 | 2·2 | 2·5 | 2·2 | 2·4 | 2·0 | 2·5 | 2·1 |
| Commercial disposals | 105·8 | 106·6 | 106·5 | 91·0 | 97·2 | 93·3 | 93·7 | 92·4 | 88·3 | 85·6 (provisional) | 85·7 |
House Of Commons (Rebuilding)
I desire to ask you, Mr. Speaker, a Question of which I have given you private notice—whether it is possible to make arrangements for placing on view to hon. Members the exhibits mentioned in the Report of the Select Committee on House of Commons (Rebuilding).
Yes. The exhibits mentioned, including the model, are now on view in Committee Room 12.
Assassination Of Lord Moyne
Parliament and the nation have suffered a very heavy loss in the death of Lord Moyne, who died at the hands of foul assassins in Cairo last night. We have as yet received no official information which fixes the authorship of the crime or gives us a clue to its motives. The murderers themselves narrowly escaped lynching at the hands of Egyptian passers-by, and the Egyptian Government have stated that they were not Egyptian subjects. Very searching inquiries will be made into the origins and associations of these strangers to Egypt, and the House will doubtless require the fullest information as soon as it has been obtained.
This morning I speak only a few words of Walter Moyne and of the grief which all who knew him feel at his loss. I have known him almost all his life. For over 30 years, mostly in this House, we were intimate friends. Very young indeed did he succeed in getting out to the South African war, where he proved his courage and shed his blood. The bitter party strife which preceded the last world war made no difference to our relations, or to his relations with many of his opponents. He fought in the first world war with distinguished courage, rising to the command of a battalion and passing through the very worst of the fighting year after year, both on Gallipoli and in France and Flanders. It was a great pleasure to me when I went to the Exchequer to find him appointed as Financial Secretary. He served more than 20 years in the House of Commons before going to the Lords. When the present Government was formed at the beginning of the war he accepted without the slightest hesitation or demur the post of Under-Secretary of State at the Ministry of Agriculture, although he had formerly for several years been its chief. This was characteristic of his whole conduct towards the public. Everyone must help wherever it was thought that he could help the best, and all service was equally honourable. His work as Secretary of State for the Colonies was admirable, and only the exigencies of political change led to his leaving the Government for a short while. At the beginning of this year he became Resident Minister in the Middle East, and this I must describe as the great period of his life. During this present year a press of the most difficult, tangled, anxious and urgent problems was thrust upon him, often forcing him to take decisions at the shortest notice and without reference home. These affairs affected not only matters in the Middle East, but the relations with Allied Governments and enemy Governments seeking to surrender, and were of a most complex character. The despatches and telegrams which he wrote were a model of clarity and vigour. I was deeply impressed by the expansion of his mind under the stress of responsibility and events. Certainly I can testify, and so can my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, to the marked impoverishment of our affairs in this theatre resulting from his removal and to the very great difficulty that will be found in filling the gap. In particular, Lord Moyne devoted himself this year to the solution of the Zionist problem, and I can assure the House that the Jews in Palestine have rarely lost a better or more well-informed friend. I feel sure the House will wish to express its sympathy with the children and relations he has left behind him, and also may I add, even in this time of cruel sacrifice darkening so many homes, that even those who did not know him will share the pain felt by all his friends at the passing of a charming personality and a good and faithful servant of the State.I would like to associate myself in just a few sentences with what the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister has said. Although we do not know the perpetrators of this das- tardly crime—for political assassination is the worst form of crime—and although we do not know who inspired it, the fact remains that Britain has lost the services of a man not of my political faith, but who has proved himself over many years a faithful servant of the public interest. The crime may lead to political repercussions, but that is not our problem this morning. It is our duty at the earliest opportunity to express our detestation of the crime and especially to express our deep regret at the loss which Lord Moyne's family have suffered. Our hearts go out to them. In this House of Commons, which is a generous-hearted institution, political differences do not affect personal relationships, and if a man dies in the service of his country, whatever his party, he will always be honoured. I hope that Lord Moyne's family will take from me our heartfelt expression of regret on behalf of all those for whom I speak in this House.
May I be allowed, both personally—and particularly personally—and on behalf of my hon. Friends, to associate myself with the moving tribute to a great public man of whose services we have been deprived? The war has blunted some of our senses, yet all of us in this House were moved when we heard this morning of the appalling crime. Assassination is a brutal, senseless and wicked crime and cannot be too much condemned, but in this particular case we have lost a man who could ill be spared at a time like the present. He was in such a situation that he could have enjoyed a life of leisure, particularly with his taste for art and science, justified by many years of public work. But he chose otherwise. He chose in the difficult period of the nation to give his services ungrudgingly to the Government and to the nation. I do not think that I knew Walter Guinness in this House as long as the Prime Minister, but as long as 30 years ago, in his first appearance in public life on the London County Council, I was associated with him. He did some fine work for London in housing, where he developed his administrative gifts. It is a sad day for his family. It is a great loss to the nation, and it is right and proper to take the earliest opportunity to express our sentiments.
I share with the Prime Minister the privilege of having been one of the oldest and greatest friends of the late Lord Moyne in this Assembly, and therefore it is appropriate that I should say a word, and, like the Prime Minister, I feel a heavy burden of private sorrow upon my shoulders in standing at this Box to-day. I was associated with Lord Moyne in this House for nearly 30 years. We worked together once in a private group. We were colleagues in the same Government. And at one time in the last war I served in the same Division as he did. It may be of interest to the House to recall a conversation which I had back in Gallipoli in the year 1915 with the General of the Division. He said:
I said that I remembered the time when he was called to follow the profession of politics and statesmanship, and that I believed the days would come very soon, when he would become a Cabinet Minister. I think that no more worthy epitaph could be given to Lord Moyne than to say, "Most worthily he served his country in peace and war"."It is a pity that Walter Guinness is not a regular soldier. I have never seen a man who shows greater courage, coolness and capacity in a difficult situation than he does, and had he been a regular soldier I think he would have ended his military career as a full general."
Orders Of The Day
Prolongation Of Parliament Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS in the Chair]
Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2— (Power To Prolong The House Of Commons Of Northern Ireland)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
May I be allowed to say a few words strictly confined to this Clause? If the Committee will observe the actual wording of the Clause, they will see that it says:
This Section 14 of the Government of Ireland Act clearly states that there must be a General Election every five years. The Parliament of Northern Ireland has no power whatever to prolong its own existence, and that seems to me to be a very reasonable Section, because five years is, after all, the limit imposed upon this House. There must be under the Parliament Act of 1911 a General Election every five years for this House, and even the Parliament Act does not enable this House to override that Section. It is one of the Amendments of another place to the Parliament Act, accepted by this House. 12.15 p.m. Therefore we cannot complain in the least and do not complain that this restriction of a General Election every five years should have been imposed upon the Parliament of Northern Ireland. Twice has this House enabled the Parliament of Northern Ireland to prolong its existence and if this Clause goes through it will prolong its duration, provided the Parliament of Northern Ireland so desires, for another year, enabling it therefore to go on for eight years. But there is another very important part of this Clause to which I would draw attention. It says:"Sub-section (4) of Section fourteen of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920 (which relates to the duration of the House of Commons of Notthern Ireland)."
What this House is being asked to do is only to give permission to the House of Commons of Northern Ireland to prolong its existence. We are not imposing a prolongation upon it. We are taking a very democratic resolution in order to enable the Parliament of Northern Ireland to prolong its existence if it so resolves. On two occasions it has so resolved. In 1942 there was no opposition to prolongation. At least there was no Division; only one Member spoke against it, and the House, nemine contradicente, decided to avail itself of the permission given by this Parliament. Last year, 1943, the matter did go to a Division, but only two Members voted against prolongation. Therefore, on two occasions when the matter has come before the Parliament of Northern Ireland there has been practical unanimity. How do we account for this unanimity? For the same reason that there has been in this House also the very strongest approval of the prolongation of Parliament, and there is a very keen desire that those Servicemen who are abroad should be able to take part in a General Election. This is specially relevant to the Parliament of Northern Ireland, because the Bill setting up the new register —to which the Home Secretary referred on Second Reading and to which the Prime Minister also alluded—the Bill setting up the new register for the Parliament of Northern Ireland was, according to the Northern Ireland Hansard of last Tuesday, which I received from Ulster this morning, only just at that time going through the House. Therefore, it is essential to allow time for those Servicemen who are fighting abroad to get on to the register, and I cannot help thinking of those very great and historic regiments intimately connected with Ulster in which our men are serving, such as the Fifth Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards, the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, the Royal Irish Fusiliers, the Royal Ulster Rifles and last, but not least, the North Irish Horse. I cannot speak of the North Irish Horse without emotion to-day— —"If the said House so resolves."
The hon. Member is really getting outside the provisions of the Clause by going through this list of regiments.
I do not wish to give any further list, in accordance with the decision of the Chair, but I should like to say that among our electors there are Ulstermen serving in more than 50 regiments in addition to those which I have mentioned, not to speak of the thousands of Ulstermen serving in the Royal Navy, in the Merchant Marine and in the Royal Air Force. As Member of Parliament for the Northern Ireland University I should be allowed to mention the Royal Army Medical Corps.
Really the hon. Member is going too wide. He cannot use this occasion to give a history of what the Northern Irish people are doing in the war. It is quite outside the scope of the Clause.
My point summarizes itself in this observation, that we must prolong our Parliament in order to enable these men to get on to the register. If that is done, then I look forward with every confidence to the future of our Parliament, and I can only ask, What would our Scottish and our Welsh friends not give to have such a Parliament? If Scotland and Wales had such a Parliament of their own, what amazing reforms they would be able to undertake. May I be allowed to quote in conclusion what is very apt in the consideration of this subject, and that is the admirable statement made by the Prime Minister in moving the Second Reading of this Bill? There are a very few words and they seem to me to be very much to the point:
"Nothing would be more shameful or more dishonourable than to deny the great mass of the soldiers, and Servicemen of the Air Force and of the Navy a full opportunity of recording their votes. In my opinion they have more right to vote than anyone else in the country, and we shall all be ashamed if anything were done which prevented these men, to whom we owe almost everything, from taking their full part in deciding the immediate future of their country."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st October, 1944; Vol. 404, c. 644–5.]
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported, without Amendment.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
12.22 p.m.
Before we give this Bill a Third Reading and send it to another place I would like to say a few sentences upon it. In moving the Second Reading, the Prime Minister emphasised to the House the importance of our keeping together until the end of European hostilities, and the House has most dutifully and willingly complied with all the implications of that request, and is about to give this Bill its Third Reading. The Prime Minister reminded us back-benchers of our obligations to the principle of unity and asked for our continued loyalty to the Coalition Government, and we are going to comply; but I am going to suggest that the obligation lies not only upon back-bench Members of all parties, but also upon the Government themselves. I would ask the Government, with great sincerity and respect, not to allow themselves to yield to the importunities of or political pressure from one partner in the Coalition, so as, by so doing, to strain unduly the loyalty and assent of the other parties. This intervening period which we know is in front of us will not be an easy one. The Prime Minister himself is fully aware of that fact. I would appeal to the Government not to make it harder for us back-benchers of all parties, nor, indeed, harder for themselves, by bringing forward unduly controversial legislation and thus to strain the bonds of unity too far. If the Government do insist upon doing so, and I hope that they will not, then they must not be surprised if those of us who are unwilling to sacrifice vital and sincere principles upon the altar of expediency show our disapproval in the Division Lobbies. I presume that the Prime Minister's pledge still stands, that he will not introduce—
The hon. and gallant Member is now going too far.
I will only recall to mind the statement of the Prime Minister, which must, with all respect, have some bearing upon this issue. I would merely ask the Government not to allow themselves to forget that statement, and I assure them that those of us who are among the rank and file in this House are certainly not going to allow them to forget it.
12.27 p.m.
I am one of the hon. Members of this House who is not very anxious to support this Bill. I would rather see a new House of Commons that had the people behind it, but, unfortunately, there is no alternative but to vote for the Bill. I hope that the next 9 or 12 months will not be a period in which we shall see the Government introducing controversial legislation, and I say that in support of the observations of the hon. and gallant Member for East Renfrew (Major Lloyd). It is quite possible for the Government to be subtle and to think "We will not survive the next election and we will make hay while the sun shines," and in that spirit to proceed to promote Bills which they know would not have a chance in the next Parliament, if it should be of the political complexion which I expect it to be. I also hope that some effort will be made by the Government Whips or some other body to put an end to absenteeism at Westminster.
That subject is outside this Bill and must be reserved for another time.
I will approach the point from another angle. By giving the Third Reading to this Bill we give a new lease of Parliamentary life to a lot of hon. Members who do not deserve it. I refer to those Members who rarely put in an appearance here and leave it to others to undertake the responsibility of seeing legislation through in a very critical period. Something should be done. If we are going to extend the life of this Parliament there must be better attendance. Further, I think something should be done about hon. Members who, through the Press, give notice of their intention of not seeking re-election.
The hon. Member is getting far away from the subject of this Bill in criticising the conduct of Members or the constitution of Parliament. This Measure deals only with the life of Parliament.
Well, I shall have to be careful of what I say, and I do feel that to extend the life of this Parliament does give an unfair privilege to certain Members who do not attend to their duties. I hope I am not out of Order in saying that. I am very keen that the period for which this Bill has extended the life of Parliament shall be really a live period, with the greatest interest in the business of Parliament being displayed by hon. Members. With these few words I have no alternative but to support the Third Reading.
12.30 p.m.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Renfrew (Major Lloyd) appealed to the Government not to put forward Measures which would strain his conscience, but he must remember—
If the hon. Member would allow me to interrupt him, I would point out that he is putting words into my mouth which I never said. I said "strain the bonds of unity too far." I never spoke about my conscience.
That was my interpretation of what the hon. and gallant Member said, and I think the meaning is much the same. He will no doubt remember that people in different parts of the House, who belong to different parties, have very strong feelings on the matter too, and it is necessary to compromise. I feel sure that the Government are animated with a desire to bring forward Measures which will give the maximum amount of satisfaction, but will certainly not please everyone. I support the Third Reading of this Bill. I can see no alternative to it at the present time. I am sure that the House, as a whole, will desire to respond to the appeal of the Prime Minister to give the Government every possible support until the war against Germany is won. Then, as the Prime Minister has indicated and as it is well put in a leading article in "The Times" this morning, there will be a consultation of the people some time during the next 12 months before this Bill comes to an end. The Bill enables a General Election to be held at any time within the next 12 months, and I venture to think—and these are my last words—that the electors then will focus their attention on the various White Papers on reconstruction laid before us and the test they will apply will be past record, sincerity, speed and vigour as represented by the different parties and candidates, and by that test they will be guided in the decision they make as to the formation of the next Parliament.
12.33 p.m.
I rise to support the Third Reading of this Bill. I welcome the fact, not from the point of view of any personal reasons, that this Parliament should not be ended at this particular period of the war. As I said a week or so ago, we are going through a period of crisis, and I think it highly desirable that all parties, in view of the blood that may be shed in the next few months, should hold together. But I would also like to support what has been said by the hon. and gallant Member for East Renfrew (Major Lloyd). In order to keep this Parliament together, it does not rest entirely upon the Members of the Parliament; it also rests very much on the Government, and I would say definitely that the Government must think twice before they present highly controversial Measures to this House, as my hon. and gallant Friend has said.
May I ask my hon. Friend whether he includes among "controversial Measures" the Beveridge proposals, or rather the Government proposals for social security?
That question is completely out of Order, and cannot be answered.
I merely followed the line of my hon. and gallant Friend, and the hon. Member should wait to hear my argument. Of course the Government should come to this House with Measures to say that we must embark upon the future peace well prepared. Of course we must. Of course the Government must come to the House and say that the men returning will have full employment and so on, but the Government must not, to my mind, bring in schemes which cut right into fundamental principles. Hon. Members on the other side of the House may believe in State ownership. We believe in private enterprise and individual liberty and—
The hon. Member should not discuss what he thinks the Government should or should not do. The matter we are considering is whether the present Parliament should be kept in being for a further period owing to the war.
I do not think I need pursue that point any further, but I would like to take this opportunity to add to what my hon. Friend the Member for West Swansea (Sir L. Jones) said on the Second Reading of this Bill. He dwelt upon our past unity, but I wish to add this salient point. In my opinion, if we are going to continue the Parliament for perhaps six, seven, eight or nine months, then all of us must be prepared to compromise, but not to tread on each other's toes too much, as otherwise Parliament may well come to a disastrous end.
12.36 p.m.
I had no intention a few minutes ago of intervening in this Debate, but I am provoked into saying something for the prolongation of this Parliament which I do not think could be said by any other hon. Member of this House, because I do not think there is any other hon. Member who is completely free from any kind of party affiliation and able therefore to speak with as much candour as I am. It has always seemed to me that the real case for a Coalition Government in time of national difficulty is that no one party contains enough people of good brains.
I must warn the hon. Lady that this is not an occasion on which we can discuss the value of a Coalition or any other form of Government.
I bow in deference to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but how in the world can one argue for the prolongation of Parliament, if one cannot give a reason why it should be prolonged?
This is not a question of discussin— the value of a Parliament, but its prolongation, and it is not part of my job to explain to hon. Members how they should make their speeches.
Everybody knows that these questions are closely allied, but I propose to direct by remarks to the question of the quality of Parliament as it affects the quality of the Government, and the real point is that if this Parliament is dissolved now and we have an election on party lines while the European war is still going on—that is in Order, I think—the chances are, seeing what the quality of this Parliament has been, that we should get returned some party—I am not going to say whether Left or Right—which, especially during the period when the men who are still at the Front cannot return, would be of such poor quality that the party which was in a majority could not produce a competent Government to carry on the war. Heaven knows I am not an admirer of many of those who have been doing it. Heaven knows it would have been considerably worse if they had been all Conservative, all Labour or all Liberal, for I cannot see in any of the parties enough people of courage, initiative, ability and of really good brain to make a Government work. That is all.
12.39 P.m.
I hesitate to join in this discussion at all. It has been a very peaceful one and there seems to be a strong desire that there should be no controversy. I am afraid to say much, in case I become controversial which, as the House knows, I should be most unhappy to be. However, I wish to thank the House for the support which has been given in all quarters for the Third Reading. I think a good time has been had by all in to-day's speeches, and I think that the House would now, perhaps, be willing to give us the Third Reading. Even on the Committee stage we, had a peaceful time, despite what was said by the hon. Member for Queen's University, Belfast (Professor Savory) which I thought might have started a discussion about the Emerald Isle, but did not. I thank the House very much for the way in which it has received the Bill on the Second Reading, during the Committee stage and on the Third Reading.
Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
Emergency Powers (Defence) (Charges)
Fish Sales (Charges) (No 2) Order, 1944
12.41 p.m.
I beg to move,
I think that by this time the House is accustomed to the recurrence of this Fish Sales (Charges) Order and is fairly well aware that the purpose for which the levy is imposed by this Order is to provide a fund out of which the Ministry pays carriage on fish in order to secure the widest possible distribution. This Order replaces the Fish Sales (Charges) Order, 1944, which has been in operation since 13th May, and was approved by the House on 8th June. The present Order came into force on 21st October and, on the same date, the Fish (Maximum Prices) (No. 2) Order, 1944, came into force increasing producers' prices for the winter months. The purpose of the present Order is to make corresponding reductions in the rate of charge in respect of first-hand sales of white fish. The Maximum Prices Order to which I referred increases producers' maximum selling prices of white fish by 11d. a stone, thus affording them some encouragement to fish during the difficult winter months. The charge payable by the first buyer is therefore reduced by the same amount, that is 11d., from 1s. per stone to 1d. per stone, so that there is no increase in the total buying cost or in the maximum price to the consumer. It has been our objective to have a uniform maximum price throughout the year. The rate of levy in respect of herring, pilchards and mackerel remains unchanged at 9d. a stone. These rates are the same as operated last winter. We did not change the levy on pelagic fish for reasons which have been explained to the House, and the reason for imposing different rates in summer and winter is to achieve the dual ends of seasonable prices to the producer and a stable price to the consumer."That the Fish Sales (Charges) (No. 2) Order, 1944, dated 13th October, 1944, made by the Treasury under Section 2 of the Emer- gency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, a copy of which Order was presented on 19th October, be approved."
12.43 p.m.
I am in full agreement with the purposes of this Order, but there is one point which I would like to put to my right hon. Friend. It says at the end of paragraph 2:
This is a point purely of administration. In the past there has been considerable delay in recovering these payments, and I want my right hon. Friend—I do not ask him for an answer now—to look into the point and see whether it will be possible to make the necessary reduction at the beginning, instead of having to transmit all the money South and then have it repaid back, perhaps two or three months later, and whether it would not be an easier bookkeeping transaction and prevent unnecessary delays and some inconvenience to certain sections of the trade if the whole thing could be got through, as it were, in one mouthful. I have had some complaints on that matter and I am wondering whether my right hon. Friend would give an undertaking to look into the administration."Provided that, if fish is bought on first hand sale through a licensed wholesale merchant selling on commission at or from premises situate elsewhere than at the port of landing, the said charge shall be paid by the licensed wholesale merchant who shall be entitled to recover the amount of the charge paid in respect of fish so bought from the buyer thereof."
12.45 p.m.
I am glad that my hon. Friend has raised that point, because I hope that at some future date my right hon. Friend may be able to give us an answer to it. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend would be willing, on this occasion, to say a word or two about the way in which the distribution of fish under the Ministry of Food is being performed now. As he explained, the purpose of the levy is to create a fund to enable the Minister of Food to pay the cost of carriage. I think it would be in Order, and it would certainly be of great interest to the whole country, if we were informed now how that scheme of wider distribution of fish is proceeding. We have had Debates here indicating that distribution was by no means satisfactory to all. I think it is better now than it was, but it still remains true, as I think all here would agree, that there are places where one can get fish and other places where one cannot get fish, and it is with the greatest difficulty that one attempts to persuade one's housewife friends that it is all being done for the best. I do not want to ask something which my right hon. Friend is not prepared to answer now, but it would be very interesting if he could say something on that point.
12.46 p.m.
My hon. Friends and myself support this extension of the variation of the Order and we are not aware of any serious complaints against its operation. I want to say, also, that in the transport world we find it is a very great convenience, since it focuses all the charges into a common payment, and the operation of cartage is a great help to the railways where staff is short and traffic has enormously increased owing to war circumstances, and everyone is under a very great strain. Therefore, the arrangement with the Government is most excellent, and I would like to commend it and to say that we would like to see the necessary modifications for the winter season brought into operation.
12.47 p.m.
I am glad to give the undertaking asked for by my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) to look into a point of detail. I should, however, feel that I was completely out of Order if I were to enter into an explanation of the character suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart), and so I will not incur your displeasure, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, by setting out on that perilous course. I was so glad to hear the words of my hon. Friend the Member for South Bristol (Mr. A. Walkden), because certainly there is considerable advantage both to the Ministry of Food and to the railway companies in the saving of clerical labour effected by the operation of this Order and the consequential effects of the Order.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved:
"That the Fish Sales (Charges) (No. 2) Order 1944, dated 13th October, 1944, made by the Treasury under Section 2 of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, a copy of which Order was presented on 19th October, be approved."
Potatoes (1944 Crop) (Charges) Order, 1944
12.48 p.m.
I beg to move,
After fish, may I say chips? This Order, which imposes levies on certain types of potato sales at the rates which have applied during the last three seasons, involves nothing new. We have to introduce it at the beginning of every potato season. It begins to operate on 1st November, roughly the beginning of the subsidised potato crop season, and ends with the end of the potato crop season. The levy is paid into the Ministry of Food, Potato Division, account, and the Order imposes charges on sales of ware potatoes, with certain exceptions set out in the Schedule, that is to say, potatoes that are passed into human consumption and others which were not originally intended for that purpose, at the following rates: On sale by licensed grower-salesmen, that is growers licensed to sell direct to retailers who are not licensed potato dealers themselves, and on sales made through licensed auctioneers, or under special licence, at the rate of Is. a ton. On sales by licensed potato buyers, that is to say retailers licensed to buy direct from the growers, at the rate of 2s. 6d. a ton. It is provided that not more than one charge shall be paid when potatoes pass through the hands of two licencees who otherwise would be liable to pay. The levies do not increase the price to the consumer at all. They are direct impositions on the traders who do not use the normal wholesale channels, and this evens things out. The approval of the National Potatoes Advisory Committee, which is representative of all sections of the potato industry, has been obtained to this procedure and so, in presenting it to the House, we are able to report that it is agreeable to those concerned in this industry."That the Potatoes (1944 Crop) (Charges) Order, 1944, dated 24th October, 1944, made by the Treasury under Section 2 of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, a copy of which Order was presented on 31st October, be approved."
12.50 p.m.
I think this might be an appropriate moment to say one word in praise of the administration of the Potato Division of the Ministry of Food. We do not always get a chance to praise Government Departments, but my right hon. Friend will recollect that during this summer a considerable quantity of potatoes was left in the North of Scotland and particularly in Aberdeenshire, and as soon as the attention of the Ministry of Food was drawn to this matter, the potatoes were expeditiously cleared. I would like to thank my right hon. Friend.
Question put, and agreed to.Resolved:
"That the Potatoes (1944 Crop) (Charges) Order, 1944, dated 24th October, 1944, made by the Treasury under Section 2 of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, a copy of which Order was presented on 31st October, be approved."
Hansard, Bound Volumes (Members Of Parliament)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Beechman.]
12.52 p.m.
I rise at very short notice indeed to raise a matter which I raised at Question time to-day, the supply of bound volumes of HANSARD to hon. Members. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury has intimated that he will be present shortly, and I apologise to him for the very short notice that has been given. I would like to put a few points which have occurred, I think, to all hon. Members. Why should Members of this House be short of the necessary equipment to carry out their duty? Within the last two or three years the Prime Minister made a speech about the rebuilding of this House, and in it he said, if I remember rightly, that the House of Commons was of as great a value as a battleship, and that it should be properly equipped. What should we think if we found a battleship in which the sailors had to buy their own ammunition, and in which we found, when materials became rusty and unusable, that they were not replaced on the ground that there was too great a shortage and so no further equipment could be found? I think that we should at once question the conduct of the Admiralty in that connection. We should say that the Admiralty is responsible for equipping its battleships properly. In just the same way we say that the Treasury is responsible for equipping this House properly in the matter of HANSARD. I would go further than that and say that there can be few Government officials who would not complain if they did not get the necessary equipment and books of reference in their Departments. If Government officials are entitled to have their books of reference, surely this House is entitled to its books of reference.
I know it will be said that one can always go to the Library, but there are 615 Members of this House, and it is for their convenience that they should have these bound volumes of HANSARD at hand so that they can get them, when they require them, in their own homes. I shall be told that the Select Committee has already reported on this matter. I would like to read the relevant passage in the Report of the Select Committee. Paragraph 5 says:I ask hon. Members to recall the conditions that existed in 1940; they were very different from the conditions which exist today. The Report refers to the acute shortage of labour and materials, and then we get this very revealing sentence:"The decision to suspend the free issue of bound volumes of HANSARD was originally taken in consequence of the report from Your Committee in 1940."
All we ask—and hon. Members on all sides have asked it, I think, quite clearly this morning—is that three tons of paper should be released in order that we may have this equipment which is so necessary to our work. To-day industry is turning over in many cases from war to peace production. Surely in this very small instance we might have a turnover so that we can be given the paper we require. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman when he replies will take note of the very strong feeling in all parts of the House on this matter, and that he will realise that the public will not feel that the House of Commons in doing this are giving themselves something they are not giving to other people. The recommendation of the Select Committee is only a recommendation, and the House, of course, has the power to override it if necessary. Realising what the House feels on this matter, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will do the sensible thing and will say that he is willing to reverse this very unfortunate decision."Your Committee are informed that this decision resulted in an estimated annual saving of about three tons of paper."
12.57 p.m.
I would like to support what has been said by the hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) in his request to the Treasury that this facility which has been taken away from hon. Members should now be restored. It is obvious that Members, during the time the House is not sitting, must of necessity be in their constituencies or at places where these official volumes are not available to them. It is essential, if they are to attempt to discharge their duties with that efficiency which the public have a right to demand at this time, that any official documents—so desire them. In his reply at Question whether they be records of the proceedings of this House or other publications —should be available to Members if they time to-day the Treasury representative based his refusal on the Report of the Select Committee. Paragraph 5 has already been referred to by my hon. Friend. but I would like to quote further from that paragraph, which goes on to say:
Was any evidence invited? As far as I know, no hon. Member who has raised this question and requested the Treasury to re-issue these bound volumes free to all Members, was ever called before this Select Committee, or, indeed, ever had an opportunity of expressing his views. If my right hon. Friend bases his case on the shortage of labour and materials, evidence is constantly brought before hon. Members of an enormous amount of publications and literature which flood our post-boxes every day and in, I think, quite honestly the view of the majority of Members, quite unnecessarily. These have no connection at all with our official duties, but HANSARD is only available in the Library of this House, and, owing to the shortages, which we do not deny, is not available in the public libraries in our constituencies, and has been denied to the schools of this country, so that when we are in various parts of the country it is utterly impossible for us to consult this publication which is so essential for the efficient discharge of our duties. Some hon. Members of this House over a period of years have built up their own collection of these volumes. What this restriction really amounts to is a reduction in the salary of a Member of Parliament. We have, by the will of the House, agreed to make a contribution to the pensions fund which hon. Members enjoy under certain circumstances. No one quarrels with that. But here we have an additional charge which is deducted from our salaries in order to pay for these essential documents. The House has never agreed to such a course; the issue has never been submitted, and it must be obvious to the Financial Secretary and the whole House to-day that if the House had had an opportunity of considering this matter on its merits they might well have taken a different view from the Select Committee. In view of that, I hope my right hon. Friend will take an early opportunity of reconsidering his decision."No evidence has been submitted to show that the shortages in view of which the decision was taken have been sufficiently alleviated."
1.1 p.m.
I am glad indeed that my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) has raised this matter so very promptly after this morning's episode at Question time. I am quite sure that if more hon. Members had known that it was coming on now, and if it had not occurred at this particular time of the day, the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury would have had a very much larger number of Members to deal with, and that, judging from what was said this morning, they would have been quite unanimous in their support of the remarks made by my hon. Friend. Both hon. Members who have spoken so far have quoted from Paragraph 5 of the report of the Select Committee, and I would like to repeat one sentence from that paragraph, to which the hon. and gallant Member for South Cardiff (Sir A. Evans) referred:
I wonder why no evidence was submitted. Was no evidence asked for? Did not the Select Committee consider it their duty to go fairly deeply into a matter like this, and ask for evidence to be submitted to show whether extra paper was obtainable? The hon. and gallant Member for South Cardiff referred to the mass of pamphlets, leaflets and documents of all kinds which load our mail-bags. That is true, and I quite agree with him that a great deal of it is pure trash, and a quite unnecessary waste of paper. But, on the other hand, I can see that certain difficulties would arise if you tried to censor or stop the publication of pamphlets, or leaflets, or material of that kind; and in any case I believe—no doubt the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—that all that kind of miscellaneous junk, if I may so call it, is almost always printed on what is known as free paper, and not on the paper which is allocated to publishers of either books or newspapers. If the Select Committee had bothered —as I think they should have—to ask for evidence to be submitted about the alleviation or otherwise of the shortage, I think they would have found that in some respects the shortage had been alleviated. Newpapers and periodicals, within the last year, have been allowed one or two slight increases in their allocation of paper. Those increases have been a very small percentage of the toal consumption, but this increase we are asking for is infinitesimal. Three tons of paper a year must be an infinitesimal percentage of the total tonnage of paper consumed for all purposes in this country. Therefore, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will think again and decide to take other advice than that of this Select Committee. One point which I do not think was mentioned at Question time is that the Members of another place still receive, I believe, the bound volumes of their HANSARD free. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will also confirm or deny that. If that is the case, then this does seem to be the most extraordinary and unfair discrimination between the Members of another place and the Members of this House. As has been so rightly said, these volumes of HANSARD are really a part of essential tools of our trade. I personally, as quite a new Member of this House, find that the rows of bound volumes which I have accumulated already are quite invaluable when constituents call to see me at my home with their problems, or I have to write to them. Having the full index available is the greatest possible help in dealing with all sorts of problems. There is another point which is not strictly relevant to this, but which I hope I may be allowed to put, since I gather that we have plenty of time. I was going to ask a question of the Chair, by Private Notice, about it in a few days' time. It is such a trivial point that I think I may detain the House with it for a minute now, rather than raise it by Private Notice later, at the end of Question time. Moreover, it also arises out of the Report of the same Committee, and although it is not a matter for which the right hon. Gentleman is responsible—it is a matter which comes under the Chair—perhaps I may be allowed to put it on record now in the hope that Mr. Speaker, in his wisdom, may see fit to look into it. The Select Committee have now decided that all the note-paper we use in this House, in the Library and elsewhere, is to have the crest printed on it instead of die-stamped. They have now decided that these horrible little mauve crests are to become the universal style of the notepaper of this House. I do not know what other Members feel, but I think these mauve printed crests look extremely shoddy and unworthy of the dignity of the House of Commons note-paper. I make that remark in passing, in the hope that Mr. Speaker may see fit to consider the matter and consult with other hon. Members to see what they think about this recommendation of the Select Committee —which already, unfortunately, has been put into effect, for the Report states that"No evidence has been submitted to show that the shortages in view of which the decision was taken have been sufficiently alleviated."
I think that was a most unfortunate decision, and I hope it will be reversed. In conclusion, I would only say how very warmly I wish to support my hon. Friend who has raised the question of the free issue to Members of the bound volumes of HANSARD."the Serjeant at Arms was informed of these resolutions and gave orders to His Majesty's Stationery Office to print accordingly."
1.8 p.m.
I wish briefly to support what has been said. The whole question is this: Can Members perform their duties more efficiently with these bound volumes of HANSARD? There is no one who will deny that they can. If one has to keep the daily parts there is great difficulty in keeping them in order —at least, that is my experience—but a bound volume can be referred to much more readily, and it means a great deal of time saving in giving a quick answer to a constituent's question. I say that these bound volumes should be supplied to Members. As to the cost, there are many in this House who must give away 10 to 50 times the quantity of paper which is included in these volumes. Some time ago, for instance, I turned out my office and gave away more than three tons of paper for salvage. I understand that another three tons of paper is the amount involved in this request, and I appeal to my right hon. Friend to reconsider this matter. I am loath to say or do anything which criticises the work of a Select Committee, or any other committee, because I fully realise that their intentions are perfectly honest, and probably they had information which has been denied to us, but I think that this question is one which ought to be ruled by common sense.
1.11 p.m.
I think that this is the first opportunity that the House has had of offering to the right hon. Gentleman opposite sincere congratulations on his promotion to the post of Financial Secretary to the Treasury. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] That seems to have gone down very well, so I hope that he will give a favourable reply to this request to mark his assumption of office. The position, so far as I can remember it, is that six or eight months ago the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor told the House that only some 60 Members of 615 were in the habit of buying bound volumes of HANSARD. That is about 10 per cent. and probably those who spent the sum involved, about £5 a year, were those who were best able to do so, which, as I tried to suggest in a supplementary question this morning, is rather placing an obstacle in the way of others, on the basis of ability to pay. That, as I am sure we would all agree, is quite unjustified, and I therefore hope that the right hon. Gentleman will signify the Treasury's altered view. I think it is quite important not only to have the immediate bound volumes of HANSARD but those for the last two or three years, if that can be done. For an hon. Member preparing a speech on a particular subject, it is essential to look back to see what has been said on previous occasions. It is not simply a matter of answering questions by constituents; it is a matter of being able to prepare a proper case, because I am sure that most hon. Members find, as I do, that they are able to do better work at home than they are in the Library when the House is sitting.
I raised some time ago the question of the right of Members to have reprints of their own speeches, or other speeches, for circulation in their constituencies, if they desired, and were prepared to pay for them. The House will remember that the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor announced that Members could have only 1,000 reprints of their own speeches, and were not allowed to buy reprints of other Members' speeches, even if they had their permission. In these days, when the amount of room that the national Press can and does devote to Parliamentary reports is limited, and in particular in connection with the reports of speeches made by the minority in the House, I think any other opening that Members have for circulating views that are not necessarily those of the Government should be as wide as possible. I think the Treasury should now reverse the situation that arose six or eight months ago. I raised this matter at that time with Mr. Speaker, as one of Privilege. I see no justification why the Executive, the Government, should, by the direction of paper supplies and labour, limit the constitutional rights and privileges of any Member in a matter of this kind. It is a wrong interference by the Executive with rights which have been established for many years, since the time when Mr. Hansard gave up printing the daily parts and it was taken over by His Majesty's Stationery Office. Therefore this is a constitutional principle which should be supported, and I am sure would be if there were any way of testing the feeling of the House except by speeches alone. We must always be aware of the risk of certain powers that be trying to derogate from the importance of Parliament and the rights and privileges of Members. I think the House ought one day to consider going a good deal further than we are asking it to go now. We are not just Members for our own constituencies but Members for Britain, and I think Members should have a right of free travel to any part of the country, provided that it is in performance of their public duty. I have often been asked, and I am sure others have, to go and investigate the situation in a certain dockyard at Portsmouth, or to go into the question of whether certain treatment was being meted out properly to various people. At present Members only have free travel between their constituencies and here, but it is important to bear in mind that we are Members of Parliament for the whole country, and, so long as we confine our journeys to our public duties, we should also have free travel as well as free copies of the bound volumes of HANSARD, and unlimited reprints of any speech that we might wish to have reprinted. The Executive must not, by direction of labour or paper, limit the privileges and rights of Members of Parliament. Last but not least, we should have the right to go free to address public meetings in the right hon. Gentleman's constituency.1.17 p.m.
When we consider whether or not it is desirable that we should have bound volumes of HANSARD, it is a matter that ought to be considered from two points of view. Is it in the interests of democracy that Members should have bound volumes, and is any good purpose served, such as economy of paper or economy of labour, by denying us that privilege? I believe it was estimated that the abolition of the bound volumes of HANSARD would save some three tons of paper. That was first brought up at a time when the question of the paper supply was undoubtedly of very great urgency. We should be able to appreciate that urgency more fully were it not for the fact that every day publications which in no sense whatever can be said to serve any useful purpose shower into our letter boxes. I do not believe that denying us the bound volumes of HANSARD results in economy of paper, but very much the reverse. A Member having bound volumes can refer to them at any time he chooses. Many Members have not been able to keep daily copies because some of us have been blitzed, and some of us have had to move our houses a very large number of times, and the only way to get the HANSARD to which one may wish to refer is either to make a journey to the House of Commons Library—and we are constantly urged not to indulge in unnecessary travel—or to apply to the Vote Office. A large number of Members have told me that they have done that and looked up the speech to which they wish to refer and then thrown the copy away. It would be interesting if an estimate could be made of the paper that has been wasted in that way. If that is the idea of economy of paper, no case has been made out for it.
I concur in every word that the last speaker said. I regard this as a matter of very real importance. There is no possible doubt that, if you wish democracy to work, you have to make it possible for Members of Parliament to do their work efficiently, and I believe that at present there are a very large number of barriers in our way. The question of travel is not only difficult but it is beyond the means of a very large number of Members. If we want secretarial help, an efficient secretary to-day is not only almost impossible to find but, if you find one, you have to pay a salary outside anything which a Member of Parliament, on the salaries they are paid, could possibly hope to pay unless they have private means. I maintain that a Member of Parliament should be able to do his work whether he has means outside his Parliamentary salary or not. All of us who attempt to serve our constituencies adequately are faced by the most appalling bill for postage and telegraphing. I believe that we should in the interests of efficiency be supplied with free, efficient secretaries and, where a Member does not need the whole-time service of a secretary, there should be secretaries to share the work of several Members. I do not ask for that as a privilege for individual Members of Parliament. I ask it as something to enable us to do the work we are sent here to do. To be so pettifogging as to deny bound volumes of HANSARD and say that that is in the national interest for economy of paper, or because you have not a sufficient number of people to bind the volumes, is in my opinion to have no sense of relative values. Democracy is something that we have to fight very hard if we wish to preserve, not only in days of war but when the so-called peace arrives. Democracy is something which you have to work to preserve and which you have to arouse the interest of the people to preserve, and the best way to do it is to ensure that Members of Parliament shall be efficient and shall be given means whereby to do their work. To do away with the bound volumes is petty, stupid, idiotic economy, unhelpful to Members of Parliament and certainly unhelpful to democracy.1.24 p.m.
With regard to bound volumes of HANSARD, I gather that the actual trouble is the work of binding. There was a time when we were told we could not have HANSARD for two or three days, but the indignation of the House put that right in a few hours. Many things have been achieved during the war and we ought to be able to achieve the idea of binding HANSARD and not binding something else. If that is the trouble, it would be possible to have the parts stoutly stitched for the time being. One must remember, too, that there is this very considerable disadvantage in the day-to-day HANSARD. The natural result of the combination of Members who do not speak up and reporters situated some distance away from them is that there are inaccuracies in the day-to-day copies, which are corrected in the volume. On one occasion a quotation was made from a daily part, and the Member alluded to got up and said: "I said nothing of the sort and, if you look in the bound volume, it has been corrected." With regard to paying Members' fares, I would point out that before the last war the German Government—in ordinary matters the meanest on earth, and paying its Members a very small salary indeed—provided its Members with a season ticket over all railway lines. It may be that it would be wrong to do that at the moment, because we want to keep travel down, but I would ask the Financial Secretary to consider this. Let him get some of his experts to form an estimate of what it would cost to give a season ticket to Members of Parliament over all lines. I have an impression that it would come to less than 30s. a week. Let him see what he actually pays and he will find that it it a great deal more than 30s., so that it would be a saving for the Government as well as saving a lot of time and paper.
I do not know that at any time they provided secretaries in Germany but they do in Sweden, the United States and Canada. That is impracticable at the moment, because you cannot get a good secretary, I will not say for love, but certainly not for money. The time will come, however, when it will be possible. The employment of a secretary makes a tremendous difference to one's efficiency. If I had no secretary I should either go mad, or leave the House. If we start the next Parliament with the idea that every Member has to be given a competent secretary, it will make all the difference in the world to the efficiency of the nation and of Parliament, because the old gentlemen who are just passengers and have no use for a secretary, would be much more easily pushed out by younger men who would really do their job. There are Members who spend hours writing letters in the Library. If they once got the knack of having a competent secretary, they would save two or three hours a day in which they could study the points that they wish to bring up in the House. The only suggestion I have to make in addition to what the hon. Lady has said, is that it should be the duty of every appointed secretary to report on how much work she was getting, and if she was not getting enough work her employer should be "carpeted" by his constituency association.1.31 p.m.
I would have preferred this Adjournment discussion to have taken place at the normal pre-arranged time, because I have not ready the information that I really wanted. I have looked back at the detailed evidence that was submitted in 1940, when the decision on the bound volumes of HANSARD was taken. This matter has twice this year come before the Publications and Debates Committee, of which I am Chairman, and, relying on the evidence of 1940, we have seen no reason to alter our decision because there has not been much amelioration in the paper supply or in the labour available.
The Report of the hon. Gentleman's Committee says:
Did the Committee ask for such evidence —because, in fact, there has been a considerable increase in the amount of paper allocated, for instance, to periodicals and newspapers?"No evidence has been submitted to show that the shortages have been alleviated."
We made inquiries. We had no witnesses or written evidence before us, because it was obvious that the situation was not vastly different from when the original decision was made.
It was more than three tons different.
But we must be realistic about it; three tons adds up. I am one of the few Members who availed themselves of the free copy of the bound HANSARD. It used to go to my constituency, and was used for reference purposes by anybody who wished to consult it. I miss it and I would again readily avail myself of it, if it was possible to issue it, but I am not prepared to pay for it. It is obvious that while the war is on we cannot get everything as it was in prewar times, and there are bound to be a large number of restrictions. There seems to be no alleviation in the paper shortage, and there is certainly no alleviation in the labour shortage, and the Committee could see no reason why, this year, our previous decision should be altered. It may be possible to vary it in a few months' time—
Is it not true that six or eight months ago the Newspaper Proprietors' Association released 10 to 12½ per cent. more newsprint to the Press; that some of it was not taken up; and that the "News of the World," with a circulation of 4,500,000, was able by this increase to make it 5,000,000? We cannot, therefore, talk about lack of paper.
We did discuss that point, but not technically. We understand that newsprint is not suitable for the printing of HANSARD, which does not use the same type of paper. The Committee have considered the matter twice this year and they have tried to be realistic about it. We have to put up with a great number of discomforts and denials during the war, and this is one of them. After all, Members get two free copies of HANSARD every day.
Does my hon Friend appreciate that the ordinary daily issues have no index, and that, if one is anxious to look up a speech, there is no possible way of finding it? Did my hon. Friend's Committee take steps to consult representative opinion in the House, through the usual channels, to ascertain what Members thought of the restriction?
We did make inquiries, and the conclusion was that the general opinion of Members was, "We would be glad to have it as soon as it is possible to get it." I appreciate what my hon. and gallant Friend has said about an index. That is one of the reasons why I availed myself of the free issue. The Committee are now considering the question of an index separate from the bound volumes, with only a paper binding, so that Members can look up items in individual daily copies. The Committee are as anxious to make free bound volumes available as hon. Members are, but we ask them to be realist in the present situation, which is only a temporary one. The Committee will be glad to make the free issues available again as soon as it is possible to do so.
1.37 p.m.
The hon. Member for Newport (Sir R. Clarry) appealed to us to be realist in this matter, and we cannot do any better than ask his Committee to be the same. The suggestion for a separate index to the loose copies of HANSARD is too foolish to be considered. A Member who wants to go anywhere will, if he has to consult the OFFICIAL REPORT over a period, have to carry about 200 copies with him, with the separate index. The suggestion that the newsprint which has been released is not suitable for HANSARD is no answer. It is not the newsprint which is the trouble but the pulp. The question whether you produce paper for newsprint or for paper suitable for HANSARD is merely a question of what the mixture is for the making of the paper. Pulp is the controlling factor, and it is astounding that the Committee have not gone into it more closely. The hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt), who, apart from being a Member of the House, is a distinguished member of the legal profession, has told us that he could not afford to purchase the bound copy of HANSARD. If a Member of the legal profession cannot afford to buy a bound copy, I do not know who can. Those Members who are dependent on their Parliamentary salary most certainly cannot.
There is something very fundamental about this question. One of the things which will be essential in the immediate post-war period is that the public of this country should have confidence in this House. One of the things which I fear is the growing cynicism about this House among the people. One of the reasons for it, is that so frequently this House is sparsely populated. Perhaps this is a point that I ought not to raise, because I have been an infrequent attender myself of late, owing to being otherwise engaged, but I am speaking of the pre-war period. The House is so often sparsely populated because so many Members are tied down in the Libraries typing letters for three, four and five hours a day. It is a disgraceful business that a man who comes here to represent 100,000 people, who has some knowledge of the difficulties of his people, and who has a contribution to make to the governing of the country and the prevention of future wars, has to make himself into a third-rate clerk and typist and spend most of his time typing letters to his constituents. He has to do that because he cannot afford a secretary. Membership of Parliament is the most sweated of all the industries. It is the only industry which has never had a rise during the war. I am not advocating that it should, because that would be unpopular. Nevertheless, it is true, and any Member who has tried to exist on £600 a year knows that it is a physical impossibility unless he lives near the borderline of poverty. If we persist in treating Members as we do now, we shall perpetuate a system of subsidised Members of Parliament. They will be subsidised on the one side from industry, and on the other side from the trade union movement. Both forms of subsidy are undesirable. It will destroy the independence of the Member of Parliament. The Member, however, cannot exist unless he is subsidised in some shape or form. The Government ought to consider whether the time has not arrived when Members should be treated, at any rate, as well as those of some of our Dominions. When I was in Canada in 1942, I found that for every two Members of Parliament an office and a secretary were provided. Members are free to spend half an hour going through their letters before the House sits, and they are then able to go into the Chamber and do the job for which they were elected. In this House, if someone asks for you, you have to wander round draughty passages in order to find a seat, and then, in the full public gaze with people passing all the time, you have to discuss the most intimate details of cases which are brought before you. What a disgusting thing in this Parliament of the Empire that there is not a room—unless you care to take your visitor into the smokeroom, the bar, or the dining room—where you can discuss anything intimately with a constituent. It is a disgrace which the Government ought to remedy speedily. There will be a big change in the constitution of this House after the present Parliament. I do not mean that politically. I am only pointing out that a lot of Members are not coming back and new men will be coming in. I hope that many of them will be very independent Members with no attachment. The job of a Member of Parliament is a full-time job, as it ought to be. It should not be something which a man takes up when he has reached the end of his industrial life and is no longer any use for controlling the companies in which he has directorships. It is something to which a man ought to come when he is at the height of his powers and is able to give of his best to the country. That is not possible now because there are very few men who can afford to come to the House unless they are prepared to live on a very low standard. That is disgraceful, and I hope that, as a result of this Debate, the Government will turn their attention to seeing that this House is able to fulfil its proper function in the best possible way.1.43 p.m.
The hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Captain Poole) referred to the fact that the reason we are not getting the bound HANSARD is the shortage of paper pulp. The raw material of paper pulp is straw, and throughout the country there are stacks of straw all over the place unused and unwanted. May I suggest to the Government that they should take some of this surplus straw, convert it into paper pulp, and convert that puly into HANSARDS, and thus give us the bound volumes?
1.44 P.m.
I have been here for 23 years and a fairly regular attender at that. Like other hon. Members I have missed the bound volume very much. I found it handy for reference purposes. I am not convinced by what the hon. Member for Newport (Sir R. Clarry) has said, because there is still plenty of paper coming by post to Members of Parliament. You cannot for instance say that there is a paper shortage when approved societies are attacked. I think that every Member has already received a bound diary for 1945 from Boots Cash Chemists. I can, of course, do with a bound diary, but a bound volume of HANSARD is much more useful. I wonder what happened to the Committee which dealt with this question and what they were afraid of when they arrived at their decisions. I have visited other Parliaments and I can never understand why we are so much worse off by comparison with a Member of Parliament of the United States of America. I do not want us to go quite as far as they do there. I understand that if we did, I could stand at this Box and say: "Mr. Speaker, here is my speech. I do not want to deliver it but I want it printed in HANSARD." I understand that they go further even than that. They can get copies of speeches printed free of charge, to send to their constituents. Some of us have talked about 100,000 voters, but the Americans can speak in terms of millions of constituents. Senators and Congressmen have marvellous offices in the United States of America as well as secretaries provided at public expense.
The hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Captain Poole) referred to people coming here who have followed other occupations. As we are talking in a homely way as Members of Parliament, may I be allowed to say what has happened to me? Hon. Members had better realise that if one takes a very unpopular minority line in politics, as I do, he probably gets one of the largest post bags of all. Indeed, my post bag is very heavy. Before I came here, I was a full-time trade union official, and hardly ever wrote a letter with my own hand; I dictated my correspondence. I am entitled here to dictate my letters in the bureau down below by paying for it, but I cannot get anybody because of shortage of staff, so consequently I have a typewriter in my hotel, and one at home, and I do most of my correspondence myself on the type-writer. That is what a Member of Parliament has to do in order to perform his duties. I hope that this Debate, based upon the publication of bound volumes of HANSARD, will raise the very much bigger issues which I have mentioned. I have seen the Parliaments at Sofia, Belgrade and Budapest. In fact, I am not sure that the Members of Parliament in Iceland are not better catered for than we are here.They could not be worse.
The trouble however lies in the Treasury, the Department represented by the right hon. Gentleman; and now that he is new to the job, I hope that he will do something drastic to blow the cobwebs out of the Treasury. Indeed, when the nation can spend £14,000,000 a day on this war and hon. Members never ask a single question about passing £1,000,000,000, why should we be quibbling about a trifle like the bound volumes of HANSARD? There are some journalist Members present. If they care to publish a book they can still get it published. There are plenty of new books published every week. I publish a book occasionally myself; but hon. Members cannot read them because they are in the Welsh language. I think there may be a bigger sale proportionate to the population for Welsh books than for English books just now. If an hon. Member of this House writes a book he can not only get it published; he can get it covered too. I am not sure that he would not get it covered more easily than he could get a bound volume of HANSARD. I do not want to talk party politics, but there is such a thing as a conservative-minded Chairman. If there was a radical-minded Chairman of that Committee on our official records he would make a plunge in favour of what has been claimed. Certainly, if he were a Socialist we should get bound copies for nothing, as was the case before the war.
At somebody's else's expense.
Yes, we already get copies of unbound HANSARD at somebody else's expense, and with the permission of the hon. Gentleman at that.
I intervened only because the hon. Member said that politics were influencing me in this direction, and then went on to say that if the politics moved further to the Left, there would be more chance of getting what he wants. My intervention was to say that it would be done at somebody else's expense.
Surely I am perfectly entitled to say that a man who professes to be conservative in politics is more conservative and narrow-miruded than a Liberal or a Socialist would be. Is not that accepted everywhere?
Absolutely no. He is the broadest minded of them all.
I am building my argument on that point of conservatism. I conclude by making an appeal to the Treasury. The fault does not lie with the hon. Member for Newport. The trouble, of course, is beyond him. May I therefore ask the Financial Secretary, if he is going to reply to the Debate, to tell us that after a given date, not only shall we be able to get bound volumes of HANSARD free but that we shall also get back numbers covering the period for which we have not received them before
1.51 p.m.
If I intervene now it is not because I wish to bring the Debate to an end—I have no power to do so in any event—but because, as I explained to the hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) when he gave me notice at Question time to-day that he hoped to bring this matter up, I have an engagement at 3 o'clock this afternoon elsewhere, and therefore I shall not be able to stay here if the Debate continues. I am sure that my hon. Friend will understand that, and further will understand my difficulty in obtaining all the information I required for this Debate between 12 noon to-day, when he gave me notice that he was going to raise it, and Five minutes to One when the Debate began.
It is an admirable rule and practice of this House that hon. Members may raise anything they please on the Debate for the Adjournment, but it is also a wise Ministerial practice to reply only to those matters of which some notice has been given. The hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) and my hon. Friend the Member for Frome (Mrs. Tate) will, therefore, forgive me if I do not discuss the questions of travel throughout the United Kingdom, free secretarial assistance for Members of Parliament, better accommodation in the House, and so on. The matter which my hon. Friend raised was the discontinuance since 1940 of the issue of bound volumes of HANSARD free of charge to Members of this House. I would make three observations on this matter. First, from the point of view either of money or of material, this is a very small matter indeed. In the second place, it is not a matter in which Treasury Ministers, who are answerable for the Stationery Office in this House, have any departmental interest. It is purely and solely a question for the House of Commons. The only concern which the Treasury have in the question is to endeavour, so far as practicable, to carry out the wishes of the House. In this matter, the House is advised by the Select Committee on Publications and Debates Reports, of which my hon. Friend the Member for Newport (Sir R. Clarry) is the Chairman. I would point out in the first place that this economy, which was introduced in 1940, was not asked for, so far as I am aware, by His Majesty's Government. It was initiated by the Select Committee of that time. I have not very much doubt in my mind that they thought—I think it was in May, 1940—that it was desirable for this House to set an example of economy in some small way to the nation as a whole, and to give a lead to the great campaign initiated about that time for savings of all possible kinds. What has been the result? Before the 1940 economy there were 294 Members of this House taking bound sets of the OFFICIAL REPORT. At the present time there are only 62. The decision taken in 1940 did not preclude a Member obtaining a set of the bound volumes. What it meant was that he had to pay for it if he desired to have it. I am not at all convinced that there is very much connection between the introduction of the charge for the bound volumes and the decrease in the number of bound sets which have been asked for. I believe that very many Members gave up taking their bound volumes in 1940, not because it was going to cost them £4 or £5 a year to obtain a set, but because they thought that it was the right thing to do.As one of those who gave up taking the bound volumes in that year, may I say that I did so solely and wholly for financial reasons?
I used to have the bound volumes when I got them free, but when I had to pay for them I ceased to ask for them.
I am not saying that there are not Members for whom the question of cost was decisive in this matter, but, speaking for myself, I do not believe that if the privilege of obtaining the volumes free of charge were now to be restored, the number of sets asked for would immediately go back to the number it was in 1940. Therefore, from the point of view of money or of material, I say that this is a very small matter indeed. It would involve only two or three tons of paper and probably less than £1,000.
Some persons are born mean, some achieve meanness and others have meanness thrust upon them. In this matter, the Treasury stand in the third category because we have to have meanness thrust upon us. The only concern of the Treasury here is to carry out the desires of this House which, so far as we have hitherto been able to interpret them, have been expressed by the Select Committee presided over by my hon. Friend who sits behind me. We have had this little meanness, as I expect my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) would describe it, thrust upon us; and when my hon. Friend points to the Treasury, and says "They are the people who are behind this," I can assure him that he is utterly and completely mistaken.How comes it then that the Treasury do not always carry out the decisions of Committees of this House?
Now the hon. Member is trying to lead me on to a very wide issue. On this question all we are concerned to do is to try to carry out the wishes of the House itself. It was the wish of the House in 1940, I think, that this economy should be made and when the matter was brought up before the Select Committee as recently as 12th October last, the decision taken in 1940 was confirmed, upon a Division in the Committee in which, I believe, four Members voted in favour of the recommendation that the economy be continued and the hon. and gallant Member for Ormskirk (Commander King-Hall) voted alone in the other sense. There is, of course, a good deal of room for difference of opinion as to the value of the bound volumes. I have heard of cases in which Members have passed over their bound volumes to some public institution or political institution with which they have happened to be concerned. I have even heard of a case, in the old days when Ireland was represented in this House, in which an hon. Member's bound volumes found their way direct to a bookseller with orders to be realised forthwith upon the Member's behalf.
How much did they fetch?
I have no doubt that they fetched something like the cost price. It is perfectly clear from the Debate we have heard to-day that there is a considerable number of Members who are desirous of having this privilege once more restored to them. Our only difficulty in this connection is to interpret the wishes of the House of Commons. There is set up, by Sessional Order, the Select Committee on Publications and Debates Reports. The Chairman of the Committee has expressed his view in this Debate today, and my hon. Friend opposite will also, no doubt, have something to say on the matter. This is essentially a House of Commons matter and the House as a whole will have a first-class opportunity of expressing its view on it when the new Session begins, and the Motion for setting up the Select Committee is once more before the House.
The right hon. Gentleman has mentioned that something like 297 Members indicated that they wanted the bound volume. He said that only 297 ever took it. I think they had to indicate somehow or other, at the beginning of each Session, that they wanted it. That figure represents about half the House of Commons. Could he not resume the old procedure by which those who want the bound volumes can indicate their desire in the old way, and those who do not want them do not have to have them at all? In any case why I should be prevented from having them even if there is a majority or not who do not wish me to have them, passes my comprehension.
Is it not the case that at the beginning of every—
We are now having questions which almost amount to second speeches. Only very short questions can be asked.
This is a very short question. Is it not the case that at the beginning of every year, Members who took these bound volumes were asked if they could not reconsider their decision, and whether they would be gracious enough to do so?
From the Stationery Office point of view, there is no difficulty, certainly no insuperable difficulty, in increasing the number of bound sets of HANSARD available for hon. Members in the immediate future. This, I repeat, is a House of Commons matter. We should have got into a great deal of trouble if we had acted in the face of a recommendation of a Select Committee of this House. All we have endeavoured to do is to carry out the wishes of the House, and I feel sure that the Select Committee, having heard the strong expression of views by hon. Members here, will give the question further consideration. As I have said, hon. Members will have a very potent weapon in their hands when the new Session begins, because a Motion will then be put upon the Order Paper to re-establish that Committee, and at that stage hon. Members could raise a Debate and even, if they felt so inclined, take exception to the constitution and the composition of the Committee. I hope that the House will acquit the Treasury of any meanness on this subject. It is one on which we should be only too happy to spend a little more money if by doing so we should be carrying out the wishes of the House.
2.7 p.m.
As a Member of the Debates Committee, I feel disinclined to allow the Chairman to have to bear the full brunt of the criticism in this matter. From my remembrance, this Committee was urged, with other Committees, to institute economies in the use of paper. At that time, there were general appeals throughout the nation that we should avoid waste wherever possible. I might say that upon this Committee there were at least four representatives of printing trade interests, and that it was up to them, as printing trade representatives, not to allow their sectional interests to interfere with their appreciation of the national interest. It was not only in the abolition of the free issue of HANSARD that we took action. We reduced the size of one or two publications, and we made other economies besides the economy of abolishing the free issue of HANSARD. I am very pleased to see the feeling here to-day in the direction of resuming the free issue of the bound volumes of HANSARD, but I must ask hon. Members to take into consideration that when this suggestion was first carried out, the Members of the Committee were dominated by national considerations, and were not as concerned as perhaps they might have been, with the individual desires of their fellow Members.
2.9 p.m.
May I put this point to the Financial Secretary? He seems inclined to follow the wishes of the House. Could he put that a little more definitely than it has been put? I can well understand the Select Committee, in view of the need for economy and the desire to save the nation's resources, coming to the decision they did. Perhaps all of us would have done the same in the early part of the war, with things as they were. The position is a little easier now, and what is weighing upon hon. Members' minds is that, by every post, we get volumes of advertisements and printing matter of all kinds, and when there is talk of economy we wonder where it is practised, in view of the fact that we do not get a valuable document such as the bound volumes of HANSARD, because of some reasons which may be technical. [HON. MEMBERS: "Because you have to pay for it."] No, I understand it is very difficult to get at all.
It is not. Everyone can get it.
In that case there is no excuse at all for the Treasury, seeing that the wish of the House that this matter should be reviewed again with a view to returning to the old footing is almost unanimous. I would like to ask the Financial Secretary whether he can give us some understanding on that point. I think Members of the Select Committee are convinced of the feeling of the House. Would the Financial Secretary give that assurance and not harp so much about meanness being thrust upon him—I am thrusting it from him now—and indicate he is prepared to follow the old system? The hon. Member for Frome (Mrs. Tate) and I have given evidence that we ceased to take the bound volume because of financial embarrassment. I had taken it every year since I have been here, but when I was told I would have to pay for it I said, "I cannot afford it," and I did not take it. That is an example of what the present position means. I would like the Financial Secretary to give some assurance that he has been convinced by the free expression of opinion of the Members present which has been an endeavour to get him to change his point of view.
2.12 p.m.
I wish to stand up here, first of all, in defence of the Treasury, because to-day they have adopted a new line and have definitely said that it is the sole desire of the Treasury, on all occasions, to carry out the will and wishes of the House. One is also interested to notice, if I interpreted the Financial Secretary's remarks correctly, that the Treasury think that this action was a mean action, and that they regret having done it. I hope that is not too wide an interpretation of his remarks. As has been said, this decision was arrived at because of the shortage of paper and national necessity. That may have been true in 1940, but I gather from the Report here that the Committee arrived at the same decision on 12th October, 1944, without going into the evidence at all, or asking, apparently, for any fresh evidence. I submit that it is the considered opinion of the House that this decision should now be reversed.
I wish to ask the Financial Secretary what steps will be taken by the Treasury to ascertain what is the real opinion of the House. Surely this right—not a privilege but a right—is not going to be taken away, if the majority of Members of the House of Commons do not wish it to be taken away. It is definitely a right that we should have available to us bound volumes, so that we can refer to them from time to time. I make a further plea to the Financial Secretary. Other matters have been raised which are perhaps as important as, or even more important than, the issue regarding HANSARD. These are matters which obviously demand very careful and serious consideration. Can the Financial Secretary indicate that these proposals or suggestions will be given the most careful consideration at some early date, and that an opportunity will be afforded for him to come to the House in this generous mood, and say, "What is the wish of the House? We shall carry it out."2.14 p.m.
I add my voice for once to those of the forces of reaction, so widely expressed in different parts of the House to-day. I hope we shall soon go back to what was the practice before I had the privilege of being a Member of this House. I came to the House in the early part of 1941, and it was a disappointment to me to find that, contrary to my expectation, I was not to be presented with bound volumes of the Debates. I have regretted it ever since. I think the attitude of the Committee in 1940 can be well understood, but we have now had various relaxations, particularly in connection with the black-out and so on. Things are not so difficult as they were, though there are still many difficulties before us. I hope all those concerned, particularly the representatives of the Treasury, are now convinced that in all parts of the House there is a desire that we should revert to what used to be the practice here, and I hope we shall do that now.
Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."
Division No. 43.]
| AYES.
| [2.16 p.m.
|
| Adamson, W. M. (Cannock) | Gretton, J F. | Procter, Major H. A. |
| Agnew, Comdr. P. G. | Harris, Rt. Hon. Sir P. A. | Pym, L. R. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Headlam, Lt.-Col. Sir C. M. | Raikes, Flight-Lieut., H. V. A. M. |
| Barnes, A. J. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Rankin, Sir R. |
| Beattie, F. (Cathcart) | Hopkinson, A. | Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead) |
| Beaumont, Maj. Hn. R. E. B. (P'tsm'th) | Horsbrugh, Florence | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) |
| Beit, Sir A. L. | Howitt, Dr. A. B. | Ross Taylor, W. |
| Blair, Sir R. | Hutchison, Lt.-Com. G. I. C. (E'burgh) | Sanderson, Sir F. B. |
| Bossom, A. C. | Jewson, P. W. | Sandys, E. D. |
| Bower, Norman (Harrow) | Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. (St'l'g & C'km'n) | Savory, Professor D. L. |
| Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Comdr. Hon. L. W. | Scott, Lord William (Ro'b'h & Selk'k) |
| Broad, F. A. | Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) | Shepherd, S. |
| Brocklebank, Sir C. E. R. | Lawson, J. J. (Chester-le-Street) | Sidney, Major W. P. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) | Lees-Jones, J. | Smith, E. P. (Ashford) |
| Brown, T. J. (Ince) | Liddall, W. S. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Burke, W. A. | Lipson, D. L. | Storey, S. |
| Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. | Llewellin, Col. Rt. Hon. J. J. | Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. |
| Cadogan, Major Sir E. | Mabane, Rt. Hon. W | Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. (Bromley) | MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. | Studholme, Major H. G. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | McCallum, Major D. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. |
| Chapman, A. (Ruthergten) | MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Charleton, H. C. | McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Chater, D. | Magnay, T. | Thorne, W. |
| Cobb, Captain, E. C. | Manningham-Buller, R. E. | Thorneycroft, Major G. E. P. (Stafford) |
| Conant, Major R. J. E. | Marlowe, Lt.-Col. A. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) | Mathers, G. | Touche, G. C. |
| Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L. | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. | Turton, R.H. |
| Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. | Messer, F. | Ward, Col. Sir A. (Hull) |
| Drewe, C. | Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.) | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| Edmondson, Major Sir J. | Molson, A. H. E. | Watkins, F. C. |
| Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Montague, F. | Wayland, Sir W. A. |
| Erskine-Hill, A. G. | Morgan, R. H. (Stourbridge) | Wells, Sir S. Richard |
| Everard, Sir W. Lindsay | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Westwood, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Fermoy, Lord | Mott-Radclyfle, Capt. C. E. | Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. (Blaydon) |
| Fleming, Squadron-Leader E. L. | Murray, Sir D. K. (Midlothian, N.) | Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley) |
| Foot, D. M. | Peake, Rt. Hon. 0. | Windsor-Clive, Lt.-Col. G. |
| Fyfe, Major Sir D. P. M. | Perkins, W. R. D. | York, Major C. |
| Galbraith, Comdr. T. D. | Petherick, M. | |
| Gammans, Capt. L. D. | Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES:—
|
| Gibson, Sir C. G. | Peto, Major B. A. J. | Major A. S. L. Young and |
| Green, W. H. (Deptford) | Prescott, Capt. W. R. S. | Major Buchan-Hepburn. |
| Greenwell, Colonel T. G. | Price, M. P. |
| NOES. | ||
| Barr, J. | Gruffydd, Professor W. J. | Reakes, G. L. (Wallasey) |
| Beaumont, Hubert (Batley) | Harvey, T. E. | Sexton, T. M. |
| Bellenger, F. J. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Shepperson, Sir E. W. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Horabin, T. L. | Shinwell, E. |
| Bowles, F. G. | Hubbard, T. F. | Sloan, A. |
| Burden, T. W. | Hughes, R. Moelwyn | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Cape, T. | Hynd, J. B. | Summerskill, Dr. Edith |
| Cluse, W. S. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Tasker, Sir R. I. |
| Cocks, F. S. | Linstead, H. N. | Thomas, I. (Keighley) |
| Cove, W.G. | Loftus, P. C. | Thomas, Dr. W. S. Russell (S'th'm'tn) |
| Daggar, G. | McEntee, V. la T. | Thorneycroft, H. (Clayton) |
| Davidson, Viscountess (H'm'l H'mst'd) | Mack, J. D. | Viant, S. P. |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Maclean, N. (Govan) | Watson, W. McL. |
| Dobbie, W. | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. | White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.) |
| Driberg, T. E. N. | Oldfield, W. H. | Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Evans, Col. Sir A. (Cardiff, S.) | Plugge, Capt. L. F. | |
| Gates, Major E. E. | Poole, Captain C. C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES:—
|
| George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | Pritt, D. N. | Mr. J. Dugdale and Mrs. Tate. |
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-four Minutes after Two o'Clock.
The House proceeded to a Division.
(seated and covered): On a point of Order. May I draw your attention, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to the fact that the Minister, in his speech, asked for a free vote, in order to find out the feeling of the House and that now the Government have put on the Whips?
No, the hon. Member cannot raise that now.
Ayes, 121; Noes, 51.