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Commons Chamber

Volume 410: debated on Wednesday 18 April 1945

House of Commons

Wednesday, April 18, 1945

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]

The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock

President Roosevelt

The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN of the HOUSEHOLD (Major A. S. L. YOUNG) reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address as followeth:

I thank you for your loyal and dutiful Address expressing the deep sorrow and sense of grievous loss caused by the death of President Roosevelt.

I share these sentiments in full and mourn with you the loss of this great and distinguished statesman and much loved friend of the British Commonwealth and Empire.

I shall at once convey to the President of the United States of America your message and your profound sympathy with Mrs. Roosevelt and the late President's family and with the Government and people of the United States of America.

Private Business

London County Council (Money) Bill (Standing Orders Applicable Thereto Complied With)

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table,—Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:

London County Council (Money) Bill.

Bill to be read a Second time.

PRIVATE BILL PETITIONS [Lords] (STANDING ORDERS NOT COMPLIED WITH)

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table—Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:

Pontypool Gas [ Lords ].

Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

War Crimes

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any definition of the term "war criminal," or a list of war criminals has been furnished to neutral Governments by any or all of the Allied Governments.

We have made it plain to neutral Governments that by war criminals we mean not only those who have actually committed breaches of the laws and customs of war, but also the Nazi and Fascist leaders who are responsible for the policy leading to these crimes. No list of war criminals has been furnished to neutral Governments either by His Majesty's Government or, so far as I know, by other Allied Governments. The publication of names would not be expedient at the present time.

How are neutral Governments expected to act if war criminals appear on their frontiers, if they do not know the names of these men or of what crimes they are accused?

I expect that they will, in general, know a war criminal when they see one. If they do not, we shall be able to give them the information.

Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to a report to-day by Alan Moorehead that Nazis are employed in many areas of Germany; and is it the policy of the Government to employ war criminals in the towns?

My attention has not been drawn to that report but, if there is anything in it, no doubt it will be.

Will the major Nazi criminals referred to in the right hon. Gentleman's reply include people like Herr von Papen?

As far as I know, Grandi has not been nominated, if that is the term, by any Allied Government for this distinction. As for Herr von Papen, that is no doubt a matter for consideration. I have nothing to say about it now.

If a war criminal can be recognised at sight, is there any point in having a trial to see if he is one? Why not shoot him straight away?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if any persons regarded as war criminals by the War Crimes Commission, or accused of war crimes by members of the United Nations, are known to be resident now in neutral countries; and, if so, in which countries?

I have nothing to add to the reply which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary gave to the hon. Member on 28th March.

That reply did not answer at any rate part of my Question. Are any of these known to be resident now in neutral countries?

I said I had nothing to add to the reply given on 28th March. That means that the situation, in that respect, is the same as it was on 28th March.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what observations the United Nations War Crimes Commission has received from any of the United Nations on the subject of crimes committed by Nazi leaders against German nationals either during or before the war; and if he will raise this matter with the Commission?

The United Nations War Crimes Commission is, as its name indicates, an international body, and its deliberations are of necessity secret. It would not therefore be proper for me to divulge information about observations addressed to the Commission by any other member Government or Governments. I cannot accept the suggestion in the second part of the Question. As I explained in replying to a question on 31st January by my hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth (Mr. G. Strauss), crimes committed by Germans against Germans are in a different category from war crimes and cannot be dealt with under the same procedure. His Majesty's Government remain determined to ensure that these crimes do not go unpunished, when Germany has been brought under Allied control.

If the Government regard these matters as war crimes, as appears to be implied in the latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's answer, is there any good reason why they should not be dealt with by the War Crimes Commission, even though they belong to a different category of war crimes?

If my hon. Friend had listened more attentively to my answer, he would have heard that I said that they belonged to a different category from war crimes, not to a different category of war crimes.

I listened carefully, and did not the right hon. Gentleman say in the latter part of the answer that these war crimes would not be left unpunished?

No, Sir; for the sake of the record, I said that His Majesty's Government were determined to ensure that these crimes did not go unpunished. I did not specify them as war crimes.

How do the Government propose to bring to trial Nazis who have committed crimes against German nationals?

I do not think I can add anything to what I have said. I said definitely that it is our intention that these crimes should not go unpunished, and I think the hon. Member will do well to leave it at that at the moment.

British Council

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the total expenditure of the British Council for the years 1934 and 1944, respectively; is he satisfied with the value obtained from the expenditure; and what are the main items of expenditure.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has considered the report on the British Council made by Sir Findlater Stewart; and whether it is proposed to publish a précis of the findings and suggested reforms.

As to the first part of Question No. 5, the reply contains a number of figures, which I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT. As regards the second part and Question No. 13, my right hon. Friend possesses abundant evidence of the value of this work. He is also satisfied that it has been performed with proper efficiency and economy, allowing for the difficult conditions obtaining during the war. Nevertheless, the possibility of further improvements is being considered in the light of the report on the British Council recently presented by Sir Findlater Stewart to my right hon. Friend and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This report is confidential and will not be published, but as my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary informed the House on 21st December, a statement will be made as soon as its recommendations have been considered.

Is it a fact that a large amount of public money is involved in the expenditure of this organisation; and, if so, is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with the form that the expenditure takes?

It is certainly the case that a considerable amount of public money is involved in the British Council, but my right hon. Friend is satisfied as to the value of the work. When we have had an opportunity of considering the report, no doubt there will be an opportunity for the House to discuss the matter further.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is, in many of the liberated countries, an abounding good will towards this country, which is accompanied by an active demand for the services for which the British Council was originally formed, and that a great opportunity may well be lost if action is not taken?

I am sure that we shall take any action that is necessary as soon as possible.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind always that this is, primarily, an educational and propagandist body, and will he be on the alert to prevent it assuming executive powers which should not belong to it?

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the second part of my Question. Am I to understand that no publication will be made of any of the findings of this report, because, if so, many of us will be hampered when we come to discuss it? The view of the hon. Member for Birkenhead East (Mr. White) is shared by a great many others.

The report is first to be considered by the Government and, when we have considered it, a statement will be made based upon that consideration and the House will be able to judge of the statement.

Will the governing body of the Council be placed in possession of copies of the report?

Perhaps the hon. Member will put that Question down.

Following are the figures:

The total expenditure of the British Council in the financial year 1934–5 was £881 3s. 6d. This was all obtained from private donations and was spent entirely on administrative expenses except for a grant of £100 to the British Institute of Florence.

Figures are not yet available of the amount spent of the grant-in-aid of £3½ million for the financial year 1944–5. I will, with permission, give the figures for 1943–4, in which year the total expenditure was £1,634,732 6s. 6d., made up as follows:

Poland (Concentration Camps, Lublin)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the Yalta agreement, he can give the House any information about the concentration camps in the province of Lublin, Poland, for officers of the Polish Home Army and others.

No, Sir. Since His Majesty's Government do not recognise the present Provisional Government in Warsaw there are no official British representatives on the spot to confirm the existence of such camps.

Will my right hon. Friend make arrangements with the Russian Government for British journalists to go to Poland to inquire whether there is any truth in any of the allegations that are now being made?

The Prime Minister said yesterday, I think with the general assent of the House, that this was not an opportune time to discuss these matters, and I think it would be inadvisable to pursue the discussion now.

Can my right hon. Friend give us any information with regard to M. Witos, the venerable leader of the Peasant Party and former Prime Minister, who was carried away from his home near Cracow on 31st March?

I really do not think I can add anything to the reply that I have given, especially since my hon. Friend has raised quite a different question.

If the Government have not recognised the Lublin Committee, can the right hon. Gentleman state why Members of Parliament are to-day receiving documents concerning the Lublin Government from an office in London?

I have no information about that. I can assure the hon. Member that I am not responsible for it.

Surely the Prime Minister did not express a wish that these atrocities should continue and that we should make no protest?

On a point of Order. Is it right to make allegations about atrocities where there is no proof of any kind?

As we have been asked to await the Prime Minister's statement, would my right hon. Friend say when that statement is likely to be made?

I cannot possibly say that. It is a matter that concerns the general Business of the House. I have no doubt that a statement will be made at the earliest possible moment.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this matter will be raised to-morrow in connection with the Business of the House?

France (Food Supplies)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress has been made towards organising food supplies for France; and whether the stocks available will be sufficient to enable the French authorities to establish public restaurants in most of the large cities for the purpose of defeating the black market.

As my hon. Friend is no doubt aware, His Majesty's Government have ever since D-day made every effort to assist France in the matter of food supplies. These supplies are now in the main imported by the French Government themselves and His Majesty's Government are continuing to do all they can to help the French Government to obtain their requirements, within the limits of the shipping and supplies available. As regards the second part of this Question, it will be appreciated that the question of establishing public restaurants lies within the competence of the French Government themselves; I have no information of their plans in this connection.

Will there be any opportunitiy of getting further imports of meat into France during the coming months?

I can only assure my hon. Friend that the position of France in this respect is all the time occupying the attention of His Majesty's Government and, I think, of the United States Government.

Austria (Inter-Allied Commission)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if an inter-Allied Commission is to be set up in Austria to implement the promise of independence made to the Austrian people or by what means this end is to be attained.

Royal Air Force

Tropical Kit Allowance (W.A.A.F.)

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in view of the fact that the £22 tropical kit allowance is not sufficient for the purchase of all the necessary kit and that therefore the W.A.A.F. officer with no private means is at a disadvantage with one with such means, he will reconsider the amount of the allowance.

No, Sir. The increase of allowance from £10 to £22 10s. was granted after careful consideration by the three Service Departments and the Treasury, and the new rate is considered adequate to cover the purchase of all necessary items of tropical kit.

May I ask why the Air Ministry should go in for discrimination against those people who are not so well off?

There is no discrimination and no separate action by the Air Ministry. The First Lord of the Admiralty gave an identical answer to a Question last week, and he was assured, and, I think, rightly assured, that it would be received with appreciation.

Will my right hon. Friend circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the articles of tropical kit which officers are advised to take, and beside each item the cost of purchase, so that we can see whether £22 adequately covers them?

Weather Reports

asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will consider reintroducing the issue of full weather reports for the benefit of farmers.

I regret that it would not be in the public interest to issue full weather forecasts at the present time. The matter is, however, under continuous review and further relaxations will be made as soon as security considerations permit.

Could the Secretary of State give an assurance that weather reports will be issued before the hay harvest gets well under way?

They will be issued as soon as possible, but operational considerations must dominate, as I feel sure the House will agree. Actually, weather moves from West to East, and a knowledge of the trend of the weather is an important consideration, not only in the air war, but also in the land and sea war.

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he appreciates the importance to food production of having weather reports, and whether that has been carefully weighed against security considerations?

I certainly appreciate it, and that is why I said that it will remain under close consideration until we can relax the ban, but I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that the efficiency of operations, the shortening of the war and safeguarding the lives of our troops must have first consideration.

War Gratuities

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether R.A.F. recruiting officers are entitled to receive war gratuities on demobilisation.

asked the Secretary of State for Air why members of the W.A.A.F. parachuted into France are not eligible for war gratuities.

I am looking into this matter and will communicate with my hon. Friend in due course.

Skilled Men (Transfers to Army)

asked the Secretary of State for Air how many men of Bomber Command, employed in skilled work, have been transferred into the Army as infantrymen.

Ten skilled airmen of a trade in which the Royal Air Force has a surplus.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that sufficient skilled men remain in Bomber Command?

Enemy Long-range Weapons (Information)

asked the Secretary of State for Air why his Department paid no attention to information of an unimpeachable character gained in a neutral country in February, 1943, about flying bombs, especially in view of the fact that the same information was accepted as well founded by the Government of the U.S.A.

A large volume of intelligence on the development of long-range weapons by the Germans was under constant examination throughout 1943, and close contact was maintained with the United States authorities responsible for studying similar matters.

I appeal to you, Mr. Speaker. I put this Question down to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. It is clear from the answer that the Secretary of State for Air knows nothing about it. Shall I be in Order if I put it down again to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs?

I am fully informed on this subject, and I can assure the House that we had every possible source of information open to us. Foreign Office sources, of course, were open to us, along with other sources, and the most careful study was given to all the information.

The whole point of my observation in this Question was that the Foreign Office have suppressed information which was available and prevented it going to the Air Ministry. How can the Air Minister answer when he does not know what the information is?

The hon. Member should ask the Foreign Office why they suppressed the information.

I tried to do that, but the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, as a matter of convenience to himself, transferred the Question to the Air Ministry.

Questions

British Guiana and Trinidad (Franchise)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether anything has yet been done towards extending suffrage rights in British Guiana and Trinidad as recommended by the recent local franchise commissions.

I have been asked to reply.

The extensions of the suffrage which were announced by my right hon. Friend in the replies which he gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Hornsey (Captain Gammans) on 2nd August and the hon. Member for Wallsend (Miss Ward) on 4th October last entail, in each case, both an Order in Council and local legislation. The draft of the Order in Council in respect of British Guiana has now been laid before both Houses of Parliament as required by the British Guiana Act of 1928, and the local legislation is in hand in the Colony. The terms of the Order in Council for Trinidad are still under consideration, in consultation with the Governor.

Mauritius (Constitution)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is now in a position to make a statement regarding proposals for constitutional reforms in Mauritius.

The Governor of Mauritius with my right hon. and gallant Friend's agreement has been sounding public opinion in the colony on the question of constitutional reform, but he has made it clear that he was not committing the Secretary of State in any way. The Governor will, of course, be reporting the outcome of these discussions to my right hon. and gallant Friend in due course, and at the moment I have no further information.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether some statement of the nature of these proposals for the reform of the constitution can be given to the House? In view of the fact that for many years I have been pressing for some constitutional change and some statement has already appeared in a number of papers, cannot the House be informed what the proposals are?

A statement will, I think, be made by my right hon. Friend in due course.

Can the hon. Gentleman give an opportunity to discuss the Report?

Cyprus

Minimum Wage Laws

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what minimum wage laws are there in Cyprus with definite provisions for fixing minimum wages.

The Cyprus Minimum Wage Law 1941, contains provisions for fixing minimum wages. I am sending a copy of the law to the hon. Member.

Can I take it that the Minister is satisfied that these laws are made effective throughout?

Trade Union and Trade Disputes Law

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is satisfied with the Trade Union Act in Cyprus and particularly with Article 51 of that Act; and what steps he is taking to remedy this.

My right hon. Friend is satisfied with the Cyprus Trade Union and Trades Disputes Law, Section 51 of which is based directly upon Section 7 of the United Kingdom Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act 1875. No amendment of the Cyprus Law is therefore contemplated.

Is it not true that Article 51 of that Act makes it almost impossible for a worker to strike?

I do not think so. I think it is based on the United Kingdom law and it has the same effect.

If a worker reports to the police, that a striker has tried to get him to do otherwise than go to work, can the hon. Gentleman say whether that striker can be arrested and sent to prison?

Has not the British Act to which the Question refers been substantially modified by later legislation in this country?

Disturbance, Lefkonico (Inquiry)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action has been taken following the clash in Lefkonico, in Cyprus, on 25th March, When two persons were killed, including a boy of 12 years of age, and others wounded.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the incident at Lefkonico, Cyprus, on 25th March, when police fired on a number of villagers returning from a procession and church service in celebration of Greek Independence Day, with the result that a 12-year-old schoolboy and another person were killed and nine persons injured.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can make a statement on the shooting incident in the village of Lefkonico, Cyprus, on 25th March.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that on 25th March the Cyprus police fired on an authorised procession of unarmed citizens in Lefkonico with fatal results; whether he is aware that the persons fired on were seeking merely to enter their own premises in order to disperse as requested by the police; why the Press was forbidden to make any comments for several days; and what steps he proposes to take to avoid such killings.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can make a statement on the police shootings at Lefkonico, Cyprus, on Greek Independence Day which resulted in two deaths.

I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a brief summary of the facts so far reported concerning this incident. On the facts being reported to him, the Governor at once appointed a Commission of Inquiry with the following terms of reference:

"To make full inquiry and report on the disturbances which took place at Lefkonico on Sunday, 25th March, including the opening of fire by the police and the circumstances which led thereto."

The Commission is composed of a senior British official and two Cypriot judges. It started its hearings on 28th March and has since been sitting almost daily. There are many witnesses to hear and it is not expected that the Commission will be able to complete its hearings and submit its report to the Governor for some weeks. My right hon. and gallant Friend feels sure that the House will agree with him that, before any conclusions are reached, the report of the Commission should be awaited.

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether any action has been taken in respect of the police who were responsible for this outrage; and will he also say why the news of this event was banned in Cyprus and was not allowed to leave the country, and why when a Press statement did appear from the Government it was a garbled statement and not in accordance with the facts?

I do not think I could add anything more to the answer which I have given in view of the fact that the whole case is sub judice at present.

Can the hon. Gentleman at least clear up a point of fact which is in dispute—whether the procession was in fact an illegal one or whether, as those who took part in it thought, there was a general permit to the school authorities to hold such processions?

Surely that is one of the questions which are sub judice.

Following is the summary:

Processions and meetings took place in many parts of Cyprus on 25th March in celebration of Greek Independence Day and all applications for permits for meetings and processions were granted by the Government. At one of these meetings in Lefkonico village, a dispute took place between opposing political parties. A procession was then formed by one of the parties for which no permit had been sought or issued. A Cypriot police sergeant, fearing a more serious clash between the parties, intervened and repeatedly called on the procession to disperse. The demonstrators failed to do so and the police sergeant eventually called on two Cypriot police constables, who had joined him, to open fire, with the result that a man and a boy were killed and 14 other persons injured, of whom five were admitted to hospital. The police report indicates that only five rounds were fired, but it has been stated that there were more. The Commission will no doubt investigate this point and record its findings in its report. During the short period between the 25th March and the first sitting of the Commission of Inquiry, restrictions were placed on the publication of reports and comments on these events. It was made clear, however, that all facilities would be given to enable the Press to publish full reports of the proceedings of the Commission and that these restrictions would be removed when the hearings began.

Questions

Nigeria (Constitution)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Legislative Council of Nigeria have yet debated the constitutional proposals as set out in Cmd. 6599.

Yes, Sir. On the 22nd March the Legislative Council debated the proposals and passed, without division, a resolution signifying its approval of them and recommending them for adoption. I have arranged for copies of the report of the Debate to be made available in the Vote Office.

Now that these proposals have been debated in Nigeria, will an opportunity be given for a Debate in this House?

That is a matter which can be dealt with through the usual channels.

But in view of the fact that in the White Paper the Secretary of State for the Colonies says he will arrange for a Debate on this matter, surely it is in his power to do so?

Kenya (Civil Service Conditions)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement respecting the inquiry into the revision of service conditions for European and African civil servants; who is undertaking the inquiry; and will native authority staffs be included.

I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to Kenya. At the invitation of the Governor of Kenya Mr. L. C. Hill, C.B.E., formerly organising secretary of the National Association of Local Government Officers, went to Kenya in January to advise the Governor on such questions relating to the Government Service in Kenya as might be referred to him. Mr. Hill's precise terms of reference were published in Kenya in February and are being circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The investigation will not cover the employés of local Native Councils in Kenya except those who are seconded Government servants.

Could the hon. Gentleman say why they are not so included and what is the reason for this discrimination?

Yes, Sir. The terms of payment are governed in this case by the native local councils and also by the actual wages paid to Government officials. They differ in various parts of the Colony.

Is it not true that many of the native authority staffs want to be included?

I could not answer that question.

Following are the terms of reference:

It is notified for general information that the terms of reference of Mr. L. C. Hill, C.B.E., who is at present in Kenya, are as follow:

(1) To examine the present terms and conditions of service attached to European and non-European appointments in the Public Service of Kenya and to advise on any modification of them that he may consider necessary and desirable, bearing in mind in particular the following proposals that have been made:

(2) To advise on the present Government machinery for dealing with staff matters and to make such recommendations as he may consider desirable for its improvement.

(3) To examine and advise on any staff questions which His Excellency the Governor may refer to him from time to time.

West Africa (Penal Reform)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Report of Mr. Alexander Pattison respecting penal reform in West Africa is to be published; what were his main proposals; and what action is being taken to implement these proposals.

It is not proposed to publish in this country Mr. Alexander Paterson's reports on the treatment of crime in the four West African Colonies, although that relating to Sierra Leone has been published locally. His proposals cover too wide and detailed a field for them to be summarised shortly, but my right hon. and gallant Friend has been and still is in correspondence with the Governors in regard to them. Many have been accepted and are being implemented.

In order to keep the House acquainted with these proposals, could not some summary be issued to those interested in this matter?

As I said in my answer, there is considerable difficulty in publishing a summary as the report is very detailed.

Why not? Why cannot Members of this House have access to this important document?

My right hon. and gallant Friend considers it unsuitable for publication.

Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman place it in the Library of the House?

My right hon. and gallant Friend does not consider it desirable to publish it in the House.

Palestine (Citrus Crop)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether arrangements have yet been made whereby the whole of the 1945 citrus crops of Palestine will be used.

As the hon. Member will be aware, picking of this year's crops will not begin until the autumn but it can be assumed that every endeavour will be made to secure the utilisation of the entire crop during the season.

In view of the fact that last year 40 per cent. of the crop was wasted and never used, and as there is a great need for citrus fruits in liberated Europe, will the hon. Gentleman take energetic steps to ensure that citrus fruits are made available either commercially or through U.N.R.R.A.?

Is the hon. Gentleman's Department in touch with U.N.R.R.A. on this question and will he take an early opportunity of informing the House of the decision in view of the immense lack of fruit in liberated Europe?

Instead of giving the familiar answer with regard to citrus fruits will the hon. Gentleman state what the detailed arrangements are?

No, Sir, I cannot give detailed arrangements at the present time. The question will not arise until the autumn.

Uganda

Detentions

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the five Africans arrested in Uganda on the night of 28th February-1st March, are still detained in prison without trial; and whether they will be given an opportunity of meeting the charges against them at an early date.

The five Africans in question are still detained under Uganda Defence Regulation No. 23. Persons detained under that Regulation may make objections regarding their detention to an advisory committee constituted in accordance with the Regulation.

What is the nature of the charges? Will the persons concerned be tried by a British court or a native court?

The nature of the charge is that they were acting to the prejudice of the public safety. I understand that they will be tried by the ordinary court.

Defence Regulations (Advisory Committees)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the advisory committee or committees to which aggrieved persons may make complaints, which was provided for in the new Regulation 23 of 1940 to the Defence Regulations of Uganda, has not yet been appointed; and whether steps will at once be taken to carry out this provision.

The advisory committee under Uganda Defence Regulation No. 23 was originally constituted in 1940. The membership of the committee has since then been changed from time to time. The appointment of the present committee, which consists of the chief justice and three other members, was publicly notified in Uganda on 8th January, 1944.

Is the Minister aware that there is considerable ignorance in Uganda on this point?

Can the hon. Member inform the House whether these Defence Regulations axe like our Regulation 18B, in which no charges are made and there is no question of any trial, by the ordinary courts or by any court?

I think the Regulations are all based on Regulations in this country.

Does it not, therefore, follow that there is no question of trial, either by the ordinary court or by any court?

Chief (Appointment)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that an unpopular chief has been appointed in Uganda, that the co-operatives are being broken up, and that detainees are being ill-treated; and what steps he proposes to remedy these matters.

No, Sir. But if the hon. Member will send me particulars of the matters to which he is referring, my right hon. and gallant Friend will look into them.

Do I understand the Minister to say that he has no information at all about these allegations?

Is the Minister aware that I have received a telegram from the area concerned, bearing out the facts stated in the Question?

If my hon. Friend will give me the details, I will certainly go into them.

Roads

Motor-cars (Manufacture and Purchase)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether any priority right to purchase motor-cars will be given to persons whose motor-cars were requisitioned for war purposes; and when manufacturers will be again permitted to manufacture motor-cars for sale.

I regret that I cannot say when it may be possible to make new motorcars available for sale to the public. So long as the supply of cars is insufficient to meet the demand, it will be necessary to allocate them to those who need them for essential work. I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that this is right and just.

Does "the public" include those who have "Priority" on the windscreen?

Traffic Regulations (Crossings)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if he can indicate the present position of the Regulations governing the rights and obligation of wheeled traffic and pedestrians, respectively, at studded road crossings.

The Regulations governing wheeled traffic and pedestrians at studded crossings are set out in Statutory Rules and Orders 1941 No. 397. By Order made under Regulation 70 of the Defence (General) Regulations (Statutory Rules and Orders 1942 No. 854), the definition of a crossing place for the purposes of these Regulations has, in effect, been extended to include a crossing place which is only marked by two lines of studs without any other traffic sign of any kind.

Surely the Minister is aware that neither motorists nor pedestrians take the slightest notice of the Regulation which he has quoted? Will he not expedite the making of some definite rule by which all would have to abide? At present the position is perfectly ridiculous.

I should be reluctant to accept the hon. and gallant Member's suggestion as a statement of fact. In any case, the matter is under very active consideration at the present time.

Questions

Merchant Navy (Parliamentary Franchise)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport what percentage of officers and men in the Merchant Navy have now completed the form entitling them to vote at the next election.

Up to the end of last month, rather more than one-fifth of the estimated number of merchant seamen, eligible to register as voters, had made the necessary declarations.

Are they still able to do so, or is the time past; and if the time is past, does that mean that four-fifths of these men will be disfranchised?

I think they are still able to do so. The rate of progress has been relatively satisfactory since last September.

Is the Minister making full use of all the welfare clubs established at the various ports to get this right made known to the seamen?

Making a declaration is, of course, a formal process and that is carried out in the Mercantile Marine offices, where the seamen can always do it at any time they come in. Special facilities are provided. I will look into the question of an advertisement in the welfare clubs.

Will the Minister explain why the figure is so low, compared with those given by various Ministers of declarations made by Service men?

The Service Ministries have much more control over their men, and are able to get them together. The problem is much more difficult with seamen.

Disabled Ex-Servicemen (Municipal Travel Passes)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport how many local authorities, other than Cardiff, have issued permanent free travel passes to all those limbless ex-Servicemen whose percentage of disablement is 80 per cent.

Ninety-three passenger transport undertakings are owned by municipal authorities. According to the information I have received, 50 of them issue free travel passes to limbless ex-Servicemen whose percentage of disablement is 80 per cent. In some cases the issue is subject to limitations.

Has the Minister drawn the attention of the outstanding local authorities to the excellent example set by Cardiff city council in this connection and taken steps to encourage similar measures to be introduced there, in the interests of limbless ex-Servicemen?

I think they are all aware of it. I ought, of course, to say that conditions vary in different places.

Railways

Summer Services

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether, in order to meet the needs of workers for a holiday change of air and to avoid the strain on the crowds at railway stations, he will authorise the railway companies at their discretion to duplicate trains during this summer.

The railways are working under great pressure and my hon. Friend will, I am sure, agree that they must first of all deal with the traffic required for military operations, for the relief of the liberated peoples and for the maintenance of the life of the nation. My Noble Friend has given the railway companies considerable discretion to provide relief trains, provided they do not interfere with the working of essential traffic. It would, however, be wrong to encourage the public to expect any substantial increase in passenger facilities this summer.

Is the Minister aware that his announcement will be received by the public not only with great satisfaction but also as testimony to the ability of the railway companies to deal with emergencies more efficiently than a Government Department can ever hope to do?

Will the Minister see that there is an adequate number of ticket-office clerks to issue tickets, so that there may not be long queues waiting at the stations?

No doubt my hon. Friend is aware that railway companies have been working under great difficulties, owing to shortage of skilled labour.

Does not the Minister think that the coal which is necessary to fire these trains, could be much better used next winter in warming homes?

May I ask the Minister whether he will try to do better during the coming holiday period than he did last year, when he had to send an official of his Ministry to the railway stations to cope with crowds which had become unmanageable, and the railway companies had to put on extra trains?

Speaking from memory I think that position was due to a misunderstanding of instructions. If we succeed in our policy of persuading people to stagger their holidays, the position will be much better this year.

Will the Minister ask the Forces to issue tickets instead of pieces of paper, which involve clerks at booking offices in a lot of unnecessary trouble?

The hon. Member is a little out of date. The troops travel on their warrants, and have done so for a long time.

Is the Minister aware that I saw an instance of the sort only yesterday?

Railway Order No. 341

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport why the Railway Order (S.R. & O., No. 341, of 1945), which was signed on 20th February, 1945, and came into operation on that date, was not published until March, 1945; and, having regard to the fact that it relates to 14 earlier Orders, why there is no Explanatory Memorandum?

This Order, made by the Railway Rates Tribunal, was a formal document which gave effect to a decision previously announced in open court.

Questions

Members' Salaries (Election Periods)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will give consideration to the fact that, during the period of the election, hon. Members seeking re-election are likely to be involved in a continuance of the present heavy burden of correspondence with regard to their constituents' difficulties and that, during that period, hon. Members will not be in receipt of any salary; and, in view of the hardship in which many hon. Members will thus be involved, will he consider, in the exceptional circumstances now prevailing, proposing that Parliamentary salaries should continue to be paid from the date of dissolution until the votes have been counted.

I consider that there would be strong objection in principle to the continued payment of their Parliamentary salaries to former Members of a Parliament which has been dissolved.

May I ask the Prime Minister whether he realises that there will be about eight weeks, during which our constituents will have no Members of Parliament, although the problems which lead them to write innumerable letters to Members of Parliament will still arise? Does he not realise that although we shall no longer be Members of Parliament, we shall still receive these letters, because people will regard us as their representatives in the meantime, and that therefore very heavy financial burdens will be cast upon us, especially on those who are not very well off? Will he not review the situation and see whether he can find some solution of this difficult problem?

Is the Prime Minister aware that the principle regarding payments to Members of Parliament who are Members no longer, applies equally to ex-Members of the House who retain their positions in the Government? Is it not a fact that they are no longer Members of Parliament but they continue to receive their salaries because they hold Government positions, and they hold those positions by virtue of the fact that they are Members of Parliament? Why make the distinction?

It is hardly possible to pack more constitutional incorrectitude more compendiously than has been done in the utterance to which my hon. Friend has just given vent. Ministers are paid for the services they discharge, and as long as they discharge those services under the Crown they receive their payment. Members of Parliament are paid on an entirely different basis. It is done under an arrangement by this House, depending upon a Resolution and upon the practice of this House. It has nothing whatever to do with Ministerial payment. Ministers are not concerned in the matter of Parliamentary payment, because they do not receive Parliamentary payment, unless they choose, as some of them have done, to decline to accept the remuneration offered by the Crown.

Is my right hon. Friend altogether correct? Are there not some Members of the Government who function when the House is sitting and not otherwise—the Junior Lords of the Treasury, the Whips? They only function when the House is sitting. There is no other activity open to them, and therefore does it not apply to them?

No, Sir. Their services may be claimed at any moment by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for any purpose. All the Lords of the Treasury are at his service, excluding the First Lord, who occupies a somewhat different priority.

Is it not quite likely that many of these constituents will write to all the different candidates?

Are we to understand that during this interval, Ministers will not be in receipt of, or have at their disposal, free franking of letters to constituents?

On a point of Order. The Prime Minister said that Ministers do not receive payment—

Government Contracts (London Area)

asked the Minister of Production whether, in connection with any policy which involves the cessation or suspension of the placing of contracts with London firms for woodwork or engineering work, he will give special consideration to the difficult position in which a number of firms will be placed in trying to return to their former kind of production and the consequent hardship their employees may suffer.

Yes, Sir. But while firms in this position will be given sympathetic consideration, in the last resort the needs of the war must remain the decisive factor.

asked the Minister of Production what instructions have been given by any, and what, authority to the Ministry of Supply or the Ministry of Air craft Production that they are not to place orders for woodwork or engineering work with firms in London; and whether he is aware that at the present time many old-established firms in London are threatened with extinction because of the lack of such orders.

In January the Government decided that everything possible must be done to relieve the labour supply position in Greater London, one method being to avoid placing new work there if it could equally well be undertaken in other places where the shortage of labour is less acute. As I informed the hon. Member for North Tottenham (Mr. R. C. Morrison) on 10th April, however, there is no embargo and much new work continues to be placed in the area. The hon. and learned Member will understand that these administrative policies are constantly under review in the light of the changing war situation. I can tell him that in the case of those orders for woodwork which do not involve the recruitment of additional labour, the restrictions have already been removed. In answer to the last part of the Question, where this policy seems likely to impose undue and severe hardship on any particular firm it is not, in such a case, rigidly applied.

Is it a fact that since October no order for woodwork or engineering work has been placed with any firm in London; that such orders have been placed to a very great extent in the provinces, and that, as a consequence, many old-established firms in London are now being compelled to dismiss large numbers of employees, and that some of them are in danger of closing down?

I would like to see those questions divided. With regard to the first part of the question, in which my hon. and learned Friend asks me whether any orders in certain categories have been placed in London in the last three months, I can tell him that he has been misinformed if he has been told that no such orders have been placed. I would say to him that there has been no time in the last three months when there have been less than 14,000 vacancies in London for high priority work, and it has been essential, in the interests of the war situation, that some special measures should be applied. As the war situation changes, these measures are being eased.

Is my hon. Friend aware that London is the real home of woodwork, and that there is a very grave fear amongst these woodworking firms about their future and their present? They are at present restricted in the amount of work they get. To talk of high priorities may be all very well, but there are many hundreds of men out of work.

My hon. Friend could not have heard my answer, in which I said that as far as woodwork firms are concerned, the restrictions have been completely lifted, so his anxieties on that account should be put at rest.

Did the last part of my hon. Friend's original reply mean that special consideration would be given to firms who, because of their inability to obtain the necessary raw material for their post-war manufactures, are put in an impossible position by this decision?

Yes, Sir, but that cannot be the decisive consideration. Their needs for the post-war situation will carry some weight, but if their labour is urgently required for work of high priority it must be taken at all costs.

Food Supplies

Liquid Milk (Ice Cream Manufacture)

asked the Minister of Food whether his attention has been drawn to the undesirability of permitting liquid milk to be used in the manufacture of ice-cream, having regard to the small quantity of milk available for adult consumers; and if he will postpone the giving of permission to use liquid milk in this manner until there is a genuine surplus of milk not required for liquid consumption.

Since 1st April catering establishments and institutions have been permitted to use their normal supplies of milk for making ice-cream. No additional milk is made available for this purpose, and so the supply for other consumers is unaffected. The use of liquid milk for making ice-cream by any other than catering establishments and institutions is prohibited.

Repatriated Prisoners of War (Rations)

asked the Minister of Food whether special provisions are made for increased rations in the case of British prisoners of war who have been repatriated to this country and of Dominion and Allied prisoners temporarily stationed here and due for repatriation to their own countries.

Could my right hon. Friend give the House some kind of indication of how much extra rations these people are to get?

On recuperative leave, they will receive double the amount of the civilian ration up to a period of six weeks. For each 7 days of their period of leave, they get a temporary ration card to cover 14 days.

Ministry of Food (Cereals Section)

asked the Minister of Food the names of the chief executive officers in the cereals section of his Ministry and their connection with the milling trade.

As the reply is rather long I will, with permission, arrange for it to be printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House, approximately, how many of these people are connected with the cereals trade?

Is the right hon. Gentleman ashamed of it?

Following is the statement:

The chief officers in the Cereals group of Divisions are as follows:

Principal Assistant Secretary:

E. G. Harwood.

Directors:

Animal Feeding Stuffs — H. R. Humphries.

Bakeries—J. N. Frears.

Cereal Products—C. A. Loombe.

Home Grown Cereals — L. W. Crawford.

Imported Cereals—J. V. Rank.

Of the above, two are connected with the milling industry, namely, Mr. J. V. Rank and Mr. C. A. Loombe, both of whom have given their services to the Ministry since the outbreak of war. Mr. Rank is the Chairman of Ranks, Ltd., and Joseph Rank, Ltd. His official duties are not connected with the control of flour mills, but with the purchase and importation of supplies from overseas of cereals of all kinds including flour. Mr. Loombe, who is the officer of the Ministry principally concerned with flour mill control, has recently joined the Board of Joseph Rank, Ltd. He is not taking up executive duties in connection with that appointment until released by the Ministry. The appointment of these two officers is subject to the general principles regulating the appointment during the war of officers with business interests to posts in Government Departments.

Vinegar

asked the Minister of Food the respective quantities of brewed and non-brewed vinegar produced during the current period.

The latest figures show that the production of malt vinegar in the four weeks ending 9th December, 1944, was 980,000 gallons while the production of non-brewed vinegar in the calendar month of December, 1944, was 459,000 gallons. The annual production of malt vinegar is approximately 12,000,000 gallons and of non-brewed vinegar approximately 10,000,000 gallons.

Which of these two varieties of vinegar is being served to the public as "Port Type British Wine"?

asked the Minister of Food the retail prices now being charged for brewed vinegar, non-brewed vinegar, and dilute acetic acid, and the respective margins of profit.

No maximum prices have been prescribed for vinegar, but I understand that malt vinegar is commonly sold on draught at 6d. a pint, and non-brewed vinegar at 4d. a pint. I have no information as to the amount of trade margins.

Does not the Minister consider that he has an obligation to label non-brewed vinegar, as a protection to the public?

No, Sir, we have considered very carefully the establishment of a standard; and only recently we have decided that a standard would not be desirable or practicable.

Flour

asked the Minister of Food the recommendation made by the Standing Committee on Nutritional Problems which led to the reduction from 85 per cent. to 80 per cent. extract in flour.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the replies given by my right hon. and gallant Friend to the hon. Member for West Fulham (Dr. Summer-skill) on 21st March, 1945.

I know. But was the recommendation of this Committee taken into full consideration before the decision was reached by the Minister?

Yes, Sir; I think that if my hon. Friend refers to the replies he will find that that was fully made plain.

May I ask my right hon. Friend then to read the replies himself, because it is specifically made clear that they were not?

Did the Minister receive recommendations from the millers before he made the decision?

Soft Fruit (Prices)

56, 57 and 58.

asked the Minister of Food (1) the wholesale and retail prices fixed for strawberries, raspberries and plums for this year;

(2) if, when fixing the price of strawberries, raspberries, plums and other soft fruit for this year, he will take into account the seasonal variations of the varying districts of the country;

(3) if he will take steps to ensure that the pre-emption price for strawberries, raspberries, plums and other soft fruit shows a profit to the grower above the cost of production.

I hope to be in a position to announce growers' maximum prices for soft fruits in the very near future. The wholesale and retail prices will follow shortly afterwards, when the Order is made. In determining these prices the same considerations will be taken into account is in previous years. The price paid for pre-empted fruit is the maximum growers' price provided for in the Order. No discussions as regards prices for plums have yet taken place.

In view of the fact that these small growers take all the risk of failure of crops will the Minister remember the representations which were made last year and try to avoid making blunders this year similar to those which were so harmful to the growers?

Ministry of Information

Prisoners of War (Newspaper Reports)

asked the Minister of Information if he will introduce legislation to make it an offence for a newspaper in war-time to publish statements of doubtful authenticity, likely to cause anxiety to the relatives of prisoners of war.

Will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence with the Press to prevent these reports?

I am not going to try to over-influence the Press; and let me say that it would be a very bad precedent indeed if I were to do so. In my judgment, our Press have no superior in the world; and they do not require any advice from me.

British Information Activities (France)

asked the Minister of Information what steps he is taking to impart to the French people by radio, film or newsprint the efforts and achievements of Britain during the past five years, and the conditions in this country now.

It would take too long for me to give the House a compendium of British information activities in France. There are regular broadcasts for French listeners on the B.B.C., and a large supply of British films is being distributed in France. British newspaper and periodicals are now being distributed commercially, and, in addition to publications specially prepared for France, translated versions of many Ministry of Information war publications are now available. The latter part of my hon. and gallant Friend's Question raises issues of great importance. I believe that conditions in Britain will be better reported by independent correspondents of French newspapers rather than by servants of the British Government. Too much propaganda in France may harm our relations with that great country, which has plenty of distinguished journalists. I am anxious to encourage them to come here. The more that British publicity can collaborate with French newspapers, French publishers, French film producers, the less it will be necessary to send over to France ready-made propaganda material from here.

While I agree almost entirely with my right hon. Friend, will he bear in mind the outstanding value of his own Ministry's short films, which have been distributed in this country throughout the war, and which have done a great deal of good in showing the British war effort; and will he consider having a series of these films, not as propaganda but as information, showing what Britain has done?

What kind of films are being sent to France? Not merely Ministry of Information films, I hope.

No, Sir; an infinite variety of films, including Ministry of Information films.

German People (War Lessons)

asked the Minister of Information what steps he is taking to impress on the German people that their hardships and sufferings now are the result or reward of the misery Germany has inflicted on the world, for which they are collectively responsible, and that they are only getting a small proportion of what they have given.

The German people are being ceaselessly told, by broadcasts and by leaflets, that their present and future troubles are the direct outcome of the war they started and the inevitable result of the conspiracy against civilisation organised by generations of German militarists and their puppet politicians.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied, from the information which is now coming to us from intelligence officers and others at the Front, that the German people as a whole are beginning to recognise their collective guilt?

I should not at all be satisfied, but I should have thought mat by the time General Eisenhower and Field-Marshal Montgomery have finished their work the German people will have had a shock of realisation.

Has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to the fact that the American Higher Command took 1,000 German civilians a short time ago to see one of their own concentration camps, and showed them the horrible conditions, with apparently satisfactory results on those 1,000 people?

I should think that if those opportunities were made available by British troops the German people would benefit.

Has the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore) repented of his previous backing of the Fascists, which he loudly proclaimed?

Would it not be a good thing to send the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore) to explain all these matters to the German people, particularly those directly relevant to Munich, in 1938?

I might have to send Members from that side of the House, too, to explain their attitude.

Questions

Service Personnel, Far East (Welfare Arrangements)

On 20th December last I made a statement to the House about the report by Lord Munster on the welfare of troops in India and South-East Asia Command (Cmd. 6578), and I told the House that, on the advice of the Secretary of State for War, I had appointed Lieut.-General King to be my personal representative in these Commands for welfare matters. Since then, I have kept in close personal touch with progress on these matters in conjunction with the Ministers directly concerned. General King has now returned after a three months' visit, and I think the House may wish to be informed of some of the main points on which he has reported. I am accordingly going to read to the House a statement prepared, under my supervision, by the Ministers directly concerned, which I hope the House will not consider too long.

In the first place, General King has reported, and his report in this respect is fully borne out by many other people in a position to judge, that the morale of British Service men in these theatres is of the highest quality, and is unsurpassed elsewhere. The success of the campaigns in which they are now engaged is itself the best evidence of their spirit, which had enabled them to triumph over a dangerous enemy and over the most difficult natural obstacles.

On the material side, General King's report is on the whole satisfactory, but this is not to suggest that there is not much still to be achieved in improving the physical conditions of men serving in India and the Far East.

As regards accommodation in transit and leave camps and static camps such as R.A.F. and Naval air stations, General King reports that great strides have been made in the past year or so, and, with the exception of some items of special equipment, to which reference is made later, the general standard of comfort is reasonable, and, in many of them, it bears comparison with camps in this country and with those in India occupied by our American Allies. Deolali camp, which has earned a certain amount of uneviable notoriety, has been greatly improved. Full hutting, including amenity buildings for 5,000 men, is nearing completion, the target date for which is May. Cookhouses, cooking equipment and catering staff are being increased and improved. Similar progress is being effected at another large transit camp at Kalyan and at a number of smaller camps. Eight new leave camps are under construction and additional accommodation is being provided at a further six existing camps.

No reference to the topic of leave camps could be complete without mention of the serious lack of women workers: where they are available, they help to create that homelike atmosphere which is so much appreciated by men on leave. With the help of the voluntary organisations, every effort is being made to find assistance from this country to supplement the small numbers of women available for this purpose in India.

There are serious difficulties in providing all the equipment needed for these camps, in particular refrigerating equip- ment, air-conditioning sets, fans and similar stores. Many factories making these things have, during the course of the war, been put on to the manufacture of strictly operational products. It is now becoming possible for these factories to revert to the manufacture of these amenity stores, but the process takes time. The Minister of Labour and National Service and the Minister of Supply are taking every possible step to meet the requirements. It would, however, be wrong to expect that the back of this particular problem will be broken until the end of this year or the early months of next year.

Travelling conditions are still indifferent. Great efforts to improve them are being made, but India's rolling stock is limited and her railways are being called upon to carry ever increasing loads to nourish the campaign in Burma. Special coaches for British Service men are, however, being provided, canteen coaches are being constructed and proper arrangements for cleaning are being made, as well as for meals en route. Plans for providing air conditioning for troop and ambulance trains are at present held up because certain essential components have to come from America and cannot be immediately provided.

To turn to the question of food and drink. Greater variety is being introduced into the rations, and improvements are being effected in cooking. When refrigerators become available on a large scale, still further improvements will be possible. By the use of mobile refrigerators it will be possible to provide fresh meat to men in areas where this is not at present possible. Meanwhile, local production of eggs, poultry, fruit and vegetables is being encouraged. The canteen services in India have been improved, and a good range of commodities is now available in most of them. Beer is one of the greatest difficulties. Great efforts are being made to increase the export of beer to India and S.E.A.C. and the quantity allocated to these theatres has been greatly increased. Nevertheless, it is not yet up to the target we are aiming at. When the beer gets to India, it has to be distributed and this is no easy matter. Indeed, with the very long lines of communication over which we are now operating, it is inevitable that there will be local disparities in the supply of beer, as of other commodities. Everything possible is being done to overcome this. The Government of India have agreed to exempt beer for consumption by Servicemen from import duty. As regards cigarettes, it has just been arranged that a privilege which previously applied only to certain parts of India, by which 50 cigarettes a week were issued free, should now be extended to all parts of India. Cigarettes are now being made in India consisting of 70 per cent. American tobacco and 30 per cent. Indian tobacco. The blend is the choice, after prolonged experiment, of Servicemen themselves. It is hoped that these cigarettes will be available for distribution in the course of the next few months.

The position as regards mails is now very much more satisfactory than previously. Letters up to one ounce in weight are carried all the way by air at the cost of 1½d., and the Government of India and Ceylon have granted one ounce letters free conveyance homewards. These facilities also extend to letters to and from ships. The parcels mail has also been improved. Distribution of mail within India is done by air so far as possible. As a consequence of these measures, delays in mail have been very materially reduced.

The supply of newspapers and books has improved. Sunday newspapers are now being flown out and distributed free, and, since 1st January this year, over 400,000 books have been distributed to the Army and R.A.F. alone in addition to those for the Royal and Merchant Navies. This is still not enough, and it is hoped the public in this country will continue to hand in books they do not want—or books they do want—to post offices so that the quantity sent out may be still further increased.

E.N.S.A. is still somewhat of a bone of contention, and Mr. Basil Dean's recent report is being carefully studied, here and in India; but E.N.S.A. parties have been getting well forward, and having regard to the vast distances to be covered, are giving entertainment to a very large number of men. Arrangements have also been made for the transport to India of up to 12 artistes a month by air. Home-made concert parties are also flourishing, and efforts are being made to increase the number of bands. Cinema entertainment is improving, but slowly. There is a shortage of projectors and films which we are doing our best to overcome, again with the help of the Minister of Supply. The provision of wireless sets is being very greatly increased and it is hoped to meet requirements by the end of this year. A special Services transmitter is already in operation, and one with much greater range should be in operation in the theatre by the end of the year.

I am sure the House would not wish me to make any apology for giving this account, for every word that is said is watched with the greatest interest by this most gallant and devoted Army, which has achieved, in conditions far less satisfactory than they were led to expect, in so far as the supply of reinforcements is concerned, objectives greater than those which were prescribed on the basis of those large reinforcements. It is a grand and glorious Army and I know the House would wish me to proceed in laying this matter before them in detail. These men ought to feel that the House is watching their fortunes. I am indebted for the pressure brought to bear by this House in regard to this matter and I am most anxious that it should be most thoroughly maintained.

Reference has been made to the need for women workers. They are also wanted to work under the joint auspices of S.S.A.F.A. and the Help Society to assist in sorting out the domestic worries of Service men separated for long periods from their homes.

We are doing our best to arrange that men repatriated on compassionate grounds should travel all the way by air, at any rate when their presence here is urgently necessary.

Service in India, Burma and the Pacific involves, owing to the climate, long periods when physical activities are limited. For this reason, special efforts are being made to give increased opportunities for education; and to keep men abreast of developments in the social and political field, the Minister of Reconstruction is producing a pamphlet giving an objective and simple account of the various measures, such as the National Insurance Bill, now before the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Not before the House"]—I mean before the House in the sense that it is advancing upon it. That is not to say that the House should beat a hasty retreat. Further, the Minister of Labour and National Service has provided several admirably chosen lecturers to tour India and the Pacific, to tell Service men of the plans made for their release and resettlement when their term of service comes to an end. These lecturers, preceded by a pamphlet on the subject, are already on their way.

The above relates mainly to the Army and R.A.F. The Navy and Merchant Service have their own problems which are being dealt with on similar lines, so far as the differing conditions of service allow. The First Lord made a statement on Naval amenities on 11th April. As regards the Merchant Navy, the Reverend Mervyn Armstrong, a well-known worker in these fields, has been appointed to a post in the Commerce Department of the Government of India in which he will be able to direct and coordinate welfare work on behalf of merchant seamen.

Thus it will be seen that every one of the recommendations made in the Munster Report is receiving the earnest attention of the authorities both here and in India. The Prime Minister himself receives monthly reports on each one of them which enable him to see that any obstacles to progress that may arise are overcome as speedily as may be. The Forces serving in India, Burma and the Far East never were a forgotten army; the valour and endurance they have displayed and the victories they have won and are winning, keep them ever present in our minds, and in the minds of the general public. There is still much to be done, in their interests but much has already been done and we hope to do still better in future.

On a point of Order. May I ask whether it would not be desirable, before we go on to questions upon the statement just made by the Prime Minister, that Members who are waiting to take their seats should be allowed to do so? It is very trying for an hon. Member to stand at the bar for some 13 minutes waiting to be introduced. Surely an hon. Member of this House should be allowed a seat.

My point of Order was to ask whether it is not permissible before we go into questions, which may take quite a long time, to allow Members who desire to take their seats to do so. Surely after a Member has been standing at the bar for 20 minutes it should be permissible for him to be introduced now.

Perhaps I may now be allowed to put a question to my right hon. Friend. I think the House is really indebted to him for the very full statement that he has made to-day, but it is very difficult for us to try to understand all its implications and to appreciate its value. It is clear to me, however, that there have been and still are serious defects in the arrangements out there, and seeing that my right hon. Friend has admitted that he is thankful for the pressure which the House has put upon him I would ask whether, after the House has had time to consider the statement after reading it in HANSARD to-morrow, he would, if the House wishes it and in order to enable the House to apply further pressure if that be needed, arrange for a Debate to take place.

Of course you cannot put into a pint pot more than it will hold—unhappily. I should be very glad indeed to give facilities for a Debate if they could be fitted in with other claims to which the House may perhaps attach more immediate importance.

If in the course of a few days, after consideration of the statement, there is any desire for a Debate perhaps consultations might take place through the usual channels?

Yes, Sir, I can certainly agree to that; and I hope that this discussion about the welfare of our gallant Forces will no longer delay the important event about which the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) is so deeply concerned.

Will the Prime Minister consider a suggestion, which has been made previously, that General King should meet interested Members of the House in a Committee Room in order to hear from him further particulars and to ask him questions informally on this topic?

I should like to see about that, because although General King is one of the most competent military men I have met military men are not always able to answer impromptu a succession of questions framed by acute Parliamentarians. Therefore, I should like to consider the hon. Member's question. It may be that the Secretary of State for War should confront my hon. Friend and his colleagues, and he might have General King at his side to help and to corroborate.

May I ask the Prime Minister whether General King has mentioned to him anything of the feelings of the troops, by no means all of them of junior rank, about the undue length of time that men are being asked to serve in India? Has the Prime Minister any statement to make on whether it will be possible at an early date to relieve some of these officers and men who are being asked to serve a term in India far in excess of what was considered by the authorities to be adequate or healthy?

That is a question which should be put separately to the Secretary of State for War, who will express the view of the Cabinet upon the subject. I quite agree with its importance.

Is the Prime Minister aware that hon. Members have received many applications from women who are anxious to volunteer to go out to the Indian theatre of operations to work for the welfare of our troops there, and that it has been impossible to obtain exit permits or transport for them, and does his statement amount to a reversal of Government policy in that matter?

It amounts to a continuance of Government policy in that matter, under conditions which may become increasingly favourable.

I would point out that a Member who is desiring to take his seat has been standing at the Bar with his sponsors, one of them over 80 years of age, for over half an hour.

Selection (Standing Committees)

Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew reported from the Committee of Selection, That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A (added in respect of the Distribution of Industry Bill): Mr. Cyril Lloyd; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Manningham-Buller.

Kitchen and Refrreshment Rooms (House of Commons)

Special Report from the Select Committee, brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table and to be printed. [No. 68.]

New Member Makes Affirmation

Robert Douglas McIntyre, Esquire for the County of Lanark (Motherwell Division).

I do this under protest, as it is the only way in which I can represent the constituency of Motherwell.

Business of the House

Proceedings on Consideration of the Lords Amendments to the Ministry of Fuel and Power Bill and on the Ministry of Civil Aviation Bill exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[ The Prime Minister. ]

Orders of the Day

Requisitioned Land and War Works Bill

Considered in Committee. [ Progress, 12th April. ]

[Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS in the Chair]

CLAUSE 5.—(Works.)

3.42 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 24, leave out Sub-section (2).

The Sub-section which I am moving to omit seeks to provide that the power of acquisition of land shall extend not merely to the site of war works but also to adjoining land which, in the opinion of the Minister, must be held for the proper utilisation of those works. I suggest that this is far too wide a power to give to any Minister.

On a point of Order. It is quite impossible for us to hear what the hon. and gallant Member is saying.

There is at present no emergency. On the contrary the object of this Bill is to provide for the winding up of Government schemes of works and requisitions. Surely if adjoining lands were needed for the proper utilisation of any works that land ought to have been acquired under the Defence Acts when there was an emergency, such as we all know existed three or four years ago when most of those works had their inception. I should like to know whether this is an attempt to enhance the value of the Government's existing holdings with a view, possibly, to the Government being able to dispose more profitably of their war-time commitments. There is a suspicion, I think, that that is what underlies this particular Sub-section and underlies, also, some other parts of the Bill. If it is so, so great an encroachment upon existing rights cannot, I suggest, be really justified. It opens the door to grave abuses, for not only can the Crown take advantage of these proposed provisions but others also can do so, those who, as the expression is, have no interest in the land. It seems to me that this gives a terrible power to the bad neighbour.

3.45 p.m.

Suppose, for instance, that adjoining the site of a Government works to be acquired there is something in the nature of a Naboth's vineyard, which the person who is to buy the works or operate the works would like to acquire. It looks as though they might give such a person the chance of acquiring land of that description at the expense of his neighbours. Not only might it be at the expense of his neighbours, but it is almost certain in country districts that the land would be agricultural land. I do not know what the feelings of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture are about this, but I strongly suspect that he would be very much averse to surrendering for non-agricultural purposes any more of the agricultural land of the country.

I would like to call attention to the expression "in the opinion of the Minister" A great deal depends on that. Is it right that these tremendous powers should be given if, "in the opinion of the Minister," it is desirable that acquisition of land should take place? Is the Minister to consult anybody? Is he bound to consult, for instance, the local planning committees? It is not in the Bill, certainly, and I suggest that it is too great a power to give to any individual Minister. We greatly hope that the Commission, which we recognise my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer intends to be an independent and authoritative Commission, will have real power and will go very carefully into those cases and give real protection to any person whose property and rights appear to be threatened. But it is a tremendous power to give the Minister and it is a big question to put before even the most authoritative Commission, when a Minister, no doubt acting on the advice of his Department, solemnly says that in his opinion the adjoining or adjacent land, which has not been used during the emergency, ought to be acquired in order to give the post-war occupant of the works, whether the Government or a private individual or firm, power over the land. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will see that this is not a just provision to put into a Bill of this kind and that he will meet us and withdraw this Sub-section.

I think it would be convenient if I explained why this Sub-section is in the Bill. My hon. and gallant Friend, in moving the Amendment, took exception to the words,

"land which in the opinion of the Minister, must be held with the site of the works"

and said that that gave too much power to the Minister. The Minister has no power under this Sub-section, because each case, if objected to, must go before the Commission; the power in this connexion rests not with the Minister but with the Commission. It is clear that at the initial stage of formulating a proposal for the purchase of some land under the Bill it is the Minister, and the Minister only, who can form an opinion, but at the second stage, if objection is taken and the case goes to the Commission, it will be for the Commission to say whether any land ought to be acquired and, if so, how much land ought to be acquired.

In the event of the Commission deciding adversely, would the Minister have power to over-ride?

We have been into that question. In the great majority of cases the decision of the Commission is final, but where Government policy is concerned, where the acquisition is on the grounds of the Minister desiring either to use or to decide the use of the premises, there is a procedure by which he can come to Parliament, lay the report of the Commission and state his own reasons for wishing to over-ride the Commission; and then, with the sanction of Parliament, the decision of the Commission can be over-ridden. But in the ordinary case the decision of the Commission, of course, is final.

I think I had better proceed with my argument and my hon. and gallant Friend can make his point in his speech.

I want to ask a simple question and I am not trying to embarrass my right hon. Friend. I merely ask for my own enlightenment, with regard to the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend, can the Commission state that in their view the Minister has summed up his case wrongly or unjustly or has not displayed wisdom in making his decision?

It is perfectly clear that the Commission can report either in favour of a proposal for acquisition or against such a proposal, or they can say, "We approve of the acquisition of so much of the land and we disapprove of the acquisition of some other part of the land." I think I have made that clear. It is not a case where the opinion of the Minister is conclusive in any shape or form. The final question goes to the War Works Commission.

My hon. and gallant Friend asks, Why is it necessary to have the power to acquire any adjoining or neighbouring land? Why not be content with acquiring that piece of land, and that piece of land only, upon which the war works stand?

My particular point was, why should the Minister have the power to acquire adjacent or adjoining land which was not necessary when there was an emergency?

I was just going to explain the answer to my hon. and gallant Friend's point. In the first place, the qualifying words of the Sub-section are the words: We are talking here of land upon which Government war works have been constructed. These are the governing words of Clause 5, and if we were to omit Sub-section (2) of the Clause from the Bill, the only land which the Government would have power to acquire would be the land upon which Government war works had been constructed. It must be clear to hon. Members that, in order to operate a factory, you may wish to have some land which is adjacent to or contiguous with the factory premises. You may wish to have an approach to the factory, a car park or something of that kind outside the factory, or to have a store added to the factory for peace-time use which was not required for the war-time use, because ex hypothesi the peace-time use of these factories is going to be different from the use to which they have been put in wartime. It is clear that, if you are to have a satisfactory property to dispose of for peace-time purposes, you will have to have in all probability some area of land—it may only be a small area—either adjacent to the factory or adjoining the factory, which you wish to throw in with the site in order to provide a commercial proposition for the purchaser.

The County Councils Association, on whose behalf my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) has put down an Amendment, realise fully the necessity of this power, but they suggest that the words which we have put down are the wrong words. We support the language "adjoining or neighbouring land," and my hon. Friend, taking some similar words out of the Town and Country Planning Act, would like to insert the words "contiguous or adjacent." To some extent those words may be a little narrow, but there is not a great deal of difference between them and ours on paper, and we are prepared to accept the suggestion of the County Councils Association as far as the wording of the Clause is concerned.

I hope that with this explanation hon. Members will see that a power of this sort is essential if a satisfactory property is to be disposable by the Government for peace-time purposes, and that the final say in how much land is necessary for the purpose in mind will rest with the Commission; and I hope that with this explanation my hon. Friends will be satisfied, too.

I think that in this instance the Minister has made out his case. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am stating my own opinion only. We must all be agreed that there are certain cases in which acquisition of land will be necessary, and we probably agree that in most of those cases it is liable to be, unfortunately, agricultural land, but the same can apply to many other developments in our life. For example, in the case of cemeteries, it is agricultural land which gets robbed. If I am right in those two premises, then I will turn my attention to—

Surely there are no compulsory powers for the buying of land for cemeteries.

I was only using that as a general illustration, and I do not think that anything is to be gained by stressing it. I was going on to say that I would turn my attention to how best to safeguard the public interests, in view of the fact that there will be cases in which acquisition is essential and that that acquisition will probably be at the expense of agricultural land. There seem to me to be two safeguards. One is this House, of Commons, and it is not practicable that every small and comparatively unimportant case should come before this body. The other is to bring it before the body which the Bill purports to set up, and in which we hope we may have complete confidence, and that is, the Commission. The Minister expresses his opinion before the Commission. The Commission are the trustees—or we hope that that will be the case when this Measure is finally in shape—of the public interests in this matter and where there is a difference of opinion between them and a Department or the Minister, it is brought to the ultimate court of appeal, to wit, ourselves. It seems to me that it is not practical to follow a different line from that.

4.0 p.m.

There are certain directions in which I hope—as I think we shall find as we go through this Measure—we shall be more and more assured that the Commission we are setting up is fulfilling the purpose for which we hope it will function. I suggest, however, that it is not practical politics for us to take the attitude that it is a law of the Medes and Persians and that, under no conceivable conditions, can land that has already been acquired during the war be extended in the general interests and welfare of the community. It is for those reasons I feel that the Minister has made out a case for the retention of this Sub-section, as modified by the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone which he propcses to accept.

The Clause appears to me to be necessary for the acquisition of land other than the land on which the factory or works may actually stand for the amenities of the people working in the factory. Surely, hon. Members must be aware of the fact that many of these war factories built recently in the country in places far from ordinary amenities, have not themselves had amenity buildings or playing fields attached to them. If any reputable firm were taking over such factories, one of the things they would desire to know, and certainly that the workers in the factory would desire to know before going into the area, would be the conditions of living. They would ask, "Is there a concert hall, a dance hall, a place where we can meet our friends occasionally? Is there a field where we can play games? Are there the ordinary amenities, or something approaching them, that one could get in or near towns? "Surely no hon. Member would desire that they should be continued in a position where such amenities became impossible? If the Amendment were carried in its present form, it would not be possible for the Minister to acquire for any purpose any land other than the land on which the works stand. I can hardly imagine any hon. Member desiring to place a large firm—say Cadburys—who might purchase a big works, in a position where they could not provide such amenities, because of the bareness of the land and the fact that there was no possibility for extension, or for the creation of amenities not already existing. Frankly I felt very surprised when the hon. and gallant Member for Petersfield (Sir G. Jeffreys) moved the deletion of the Subsection, without suggesting some means of giving to the Government or somebody else an opportunity for creating amenities if such amenities were necessary.

I was very surprised to learn that the hon. and gallant Gentleman had not even noticed that the Minister really had not that power which apparently he thought he had. The power lies with the Commission, and if a difference arises between the Commission and the Minister, and the latter feels very strongly that it is necessary in some way, then he can submit the question to Parliament and ask Parliament to override that decision. That appears to me to be a perfectly democratic way and it is a way which, I hope, the Committee will think to be the appropriate.

All of us would normally agree with much that the hon. Member for West Waltham-stow (Mr. McEntee) has said, but he is rather over-narrowing the case. I am thinking not only of factories set in rural areas not provided with amenities, but of a factory which has been formed, for instance, out of a large public service garage and has served its useful purpose throughout the war. It is unlikely, I submit to my right hon. Friend on the Front Bench, that it will be lacking in approach and it will probably have means of exit as well. It may be surrounded by a lot of little back-yards, garages, a small timber yard, a builder's yard, and so on. I quite agree that it is essential that, within this Bill, there should be powers for additional land to be acquired to allow a factory to function. Obviously that is essential, but could not we somehow define the powers because, however good we make this Commission, it must have some guidance in its duties. Could we not limit the wording of this Sub-section so that if the livelihood gained by those who occupy this contiguous territory were to be affected, some different procedure might be followed?

Throughout the whole of our discussions in Committee on this Bill, I think we have been concentrating rather too much on the picture of the big factory set out in an unusual area, to produce some wartime commodity under quite unnatural war-time conditions. I do not think we can narrow down our view on these matters. The Bill will apply to a far wider field than that and, while not agreeing with this particular Amendment, I ask if there is not some other protection necessary for those who may be affected by this Sub-section as now worded.

I cannot believe that the Financial Secretary is right in his reading of this Sub-section and the Clause generally, because, as far as I can gather, he makes out his case against the Amendment on the ground that the matter is not within the discretion of the Minister but within the discretion of the Commission. Surely, however, that is not so in the main cases with which we are now faced—in regard to factories which are to be acquired by the Government under Clause 5 (1) ( b ) and then sold to a third party? That is the Government's right to determine the use and, in the case of the determination of the use, the Government may override the Commission under Clause 9 (1). If the Committee look at Clause 9 (1) they will see that it makes quite clear that where the right to determine the use is acquired by the Government and where they wish to acquire the land on that count, the Government may override the Commission. Would the Chancellor like to interrupt?

When I come to speak I will deal with that.

I think the Committee will be waiting with some anxiety to hear the Chancellor's reply to that criticism, but I would like to make one or two further remarks. I do not believe that my hon. Friends would object—certainly I would not—to this power being included were it only that some Government Department was acquiring adjoining land for a national purpose. What I object to is the right the Government are trying now to take to acquire the land, in order to sell it to a third party. That is the fundamental objection to the whole business. If a third party wishes to acquire additional land he can go out into the market and buy it—that is the normal constitutional method—but this is open to many grave malpractices, which can only be safeguarded against by a Government Department and not by the Commission.

I have been told that this power is sought mainly, if not entirely, for smaller factories in urban areas where perhaps, owing to the housing situation, it is impossible to pull down houses and make the factory an efficient unit. If that is the case—and I see that a case can be made out fully on that—let us limit this power to those cases. The question I want to put to the Chancellor is this: To what extent was this power required? For what purposes is it required? If it is to connect a main road with a war factory, I can see that within that limited sphere a perfectly legitimate case can be made out, but when we come on to the larger project, when for instance a factory has been put down in a country area where a large housing estate for about 10,000 people is required to be built, then I should have grave doubts as to whether a project, as wide, as long-term as that, should be settled within the scope of this Bill.

There is a case in point which came to my notice to-day. In a certain area there are radio location stations. Each of those requires an area of clear land round it to make it fully efficient, I am informed. One has been placed on an industrial development estate. Are the Government, in order to determine the use of that station, to sterilise the industrial development plans already in force for that area by acquiring the adjoining land round the station? May I give one illustration—I admit a somewhat frivolous one—to show how far this provision can go? Suppose the managing directors of the B.S.A. Company—shall we say, because I do not know that company and merely use it as an illustration—desire, in consultation with the Government, to acquire one of these big new Ministry of Supply factories; they can say to the Government—and because the Government have the power to determine the use of that factory, it will be outside the scope of the Commission—"We want 5,000 acres of land round this factory in order that we may entertain our clients for partridge shooting in the autumn." That can happen under this Clause without the Commission having anything to say in the matter, and we here would only come into the picture when the Resolution was brought before the House. There are grave dangers in this Subsection as it is drafted, and I would like to know whether it could not be strictly limited in its scope.

4.15 p.m.

I think most. Members have rightly had in mind a particular case when arguing their point, but, in fact, there will be many cases and all will vary in character and in circumstances. I do not believe it is possible for anyone to select words which could be put into this Bill which would be so flexible as to deal with the varying conditions that will exist. Therefore, much as I object to power being handed over to Commissions, I do not think there is any other alternative in this matter but to leave the Commission to take into account the various conditions as they will find them. On those grounds, I support the Government on this issue.

I would like, in the first place, to endeavour to dispose of what I thought was a fundamental misapprehension in the mind of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon (Major York), who seemed to think that in the case, I think the normal case, in which this particular provision will apply, the disposal by the Government of a Government factory to a third party w be carried out under the provisions of Clause 5 (1, c ), which contains the words:

"The right to determine the use to which the works are put. …"

That is a complete misapprehension. The normal case of the disposal of a Government factory for post-war purposes will come under Clause 5 (1, a ) and in that case, as my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary has pointed out, the decision of the Commission will, in all cases, be final. The Commission will have complete control. Clause 5 (1, c ) has only a very limited application to those cases where the Government, although not desiring themselves to continue in possession of the war works, are interested in securing that those works should continuously be used in a particular way. A good illustration which, I think, will perhaps serve to make the point I am trying to elucidate is the case of the deep extensions of the underground railways. Those extensions will not remain in the possession of the Government, but the Government will desire that they should continue to be used, or be made available for use, as shelters. That is a very good illustration of the very limited purpose of Clause 5 (1, c ). I put it to the Committee that those works which will come under Subsection (2), which we are now discussing, will be the war factories which it is desired to make available for post-war purposes.

No, I am talking about the normal case of 5 (1, a ). Clause 5 (1, b ) will have a very limited application. My hon. Friends behind me must recognise that the cases in which the Government will desire themselves to continue in possession of war factories, and to operate them, will be narrowly restricted. I should have thought that they would certainly wish to take that view. The vast majority of the war factories will be handed over to be used for the purposes of private industry. As I have said, the Commission will have the last word in those cases. Their finding will be binding on the Government, which will have no power whatever to over-rule it even after submission to this House.

The question has been raised as to why, if a factory has been alright for war purposes, it may be thought necessary to acquire additional land in order to make it available for post-war purposes? The answer is perfectly simple. In war-time the Government have extensive powers; they can secure access to a war factory across other people's land without requisitioning, but when it becomes a question of putting a factory into a position in which it can be effectively used as a unit for post-war trade it may well be necessary to acquire, and to associate with the factory before it is disposed of, some land of which the Government have not previously been in possession.

My right hon. Friend has an Amendment down to Clause 7 which seems to deal with the question of access to such a factory. Why, in addition to that, does he want this power?

One must not anticipate, but that particular Amendment has been misunderstood. It is concerned with easements, and I am dealing now with additional land which may be actually required for the efficient working of a factory. I beg my hon. Friends to approach this matter in the way in which the Government are trying to approach it. These are valuable properties, on which vast sums of money have been spent, and we shall be in great need, after the war, of the most up-to-date factory buildings and equipment for our post-war trade, the efficiency of which must be raised to the highest possible level. I tell the Committee, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, that that is a matter to which the very greatest importance should be attached, and I hope that no obstacle will be put in the way of the most speedy and effective transition to conditions of peace-time production.

My hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing) felt that power of this kind would be necessary, but if I understood him correctly he suggested that we should try to find limiting words. I cannot see how we could do better than have the words at the end of this Clause, which say:

The case I am thinking of is where a neighbouring owner, who is practising the same industrial activity, also feels that the land is essential to his use. That is a point on which guidance will be most needed by the Commission.

With great respect to my hon. Friend I do not think so, because the neighbouring owner will be alive to what is happening and the point which my hon. Friend has just indicated can easily be made by the owner to the Commission. Why should it not be left to the Commission to see that justice is done as between one interest and another? What more simple issue should we have for the Commission to adjudicate upon? No Minister is given any power to pronounce finally on a matter of that kind.

But surely the evidence put forward by a Minister will carry greater weight than that put toward by a private individual.

I cannot answer that, but I hope the Commission will deal with these matters as the courts are dealing with them every day.

Would my right hon. Friend consider inserting some words into the Bill which would ensure that the Crown shall not override the decision of the Commission with regard to any action taken under Sub-section (2), and that no procedure shall be adopted under this Sub-section which would avoid the Commission altogether?

I doubt whether my hon. Friend could have been listening closely to what I have said; I made it absolutely clear that the normal case coming under this Sub-section would be the case of a Government war factory which was going to be disposed of for peace-time production. That case would come, and could only come, under Clause 5 (1, a ). It is provided in the Bill that in every case, without exception, of works sought to be acquired under 5 (1, a ) the decision of the Commission shall be final. In all other cases any objector has the right to have his objection considered by the Commission and the Government can, in those cases, over-ride the decision of the Commission only by coming to this House in the manner described by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, stating their reasons, and making themselves subject to a vote of this House. It seems to me, from every point of view, that this power, generally admitted to be, in substance, necessary, is hedged around by appropriate safeguards, and that the Committee might safely accept the provision, subject to the Amendment to which my right hon. Friend has referred, as it stands.

Do I understand that this Sub-section will refer equally to common land as to any other land?

The whole question of common land is reserved until we get back to Clause 4, which is to be taken when we have finished Clause 13.

This affects a large area of forest, for which I have been a conservator for 15 years. If the Subsection remains as it is we fear that there may be an extension in peace-time of the 80 acres which have been taken for permanent war works. Although I cannot suggest a remedy now I must, if the Subsection remains, do everything I can to get from the Chancellor, at a later stage, some form of remedy.

4.30 p.m.

I have great sympathy with the Chancellor's point of view on this matter. We must not try to limit the actions which the Government have to take in such a way as to make it impracticable to work the Clause. There is, however, one point of substance which, in spite of my right hon. Friend's explanation, has not been met yet. We have to consider not only the words "adjoining or neighbouring land" or, as I understand now, "contiguous or adjacent land," but we have to consider the words "properly utilised and maintained." Under this Clause, if the Government were to decide that a particular works were suitable for the chemical industry, there would arise not only the question of access to the factory, but the question of the disposal of the waste products of the factory. I think my right hon. Friend has some acquaintance with a chemical firm, and he will know that they cannot manufacture a certain article without obtaining great areas of land on which to deposit calcium chloride, for which, unfortunately, no one has found any adequate use. It was necessary for the firm I have in mind to buy one of the finest and richest farms in the county of Cheshire and completely spoil it by covering it with huge deposits of calcium chloride.

One recognises the difficulty. Suppose the Government were to decide that a particular works was suitable for a chemical factory. It would not then be a question of buying a few acres to provide access to it, but it might be necessary—and no doubt the purchaser would make it a condition of the contract—that a very large area of neighbouring land, perhaps fine agricultural land, should be bought in order to deposit the effluent on it. I do not want to be obstructive about this, but what those of us who are more particularly concerned with rural areas feel is that a factory which has been used for a certain purpose may be, through the mechanism of Clause 5, put to some use entirely different from its war-time use, and that large areas of neighbouring land may be required for the disposal of effluent or for other purposes. This would inflict a very serious injury on the neighbourhood and on the landowner, the rest of whose property might be seriously depleted in value as a consequence. I know that the Chancellor has no such intention in mind, but I ask that, in addition to accepting the Amendment inserting the words "contiguous or adjacent," there should be some safeguard, and if possible some definition, as to what proper utilisation means. There is a very serious danger in some cases that the whole of a countryside might be transformed by the sale of a war factory, used for the manufacture of shells, for instance, to some industry which required a large area of adjacent and neighbouring land for the disposal of effluent. My right hon. Friend has made the very reassuring suggestion that only small areas would be acquired for access, a suggestion which it is very easy to make; if he can satisfy us that it is as he suggested, some of us would feel that the position was very greatly changed.

I recognise the anxieties of some of my hon. Friends. I am afraid I agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) said when he expressed the view that it would be impossible to find limiting words that would be suitable for every one of the very varied cases to which any provision of this sort must be applicable, but I will say to my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Colegate) that if the sort of case he has mentioned were in fact to arise, does he suppose that the Government would be indifferent to the considerations to which he has referred? Moreover, does he not entirely overlook all that has been said, and the provisions that are being made in the Bill, with regard to orderly planning and amenities? The sort of thing he described could not possibly happen without the attention of the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Town and Country Planning being called to these matters. The local planning authority, which has the right of audience before the Commission, would certainly be on the alert, and unless one goes to the length of saying that the development of an industry such as the chemical industry is to be subjected to general restrictions of the most drastic character, I think one must just leave the thing as it is and make up one's mind that in the course of administration the safeguards which are being provided in the Measure shall in practice be made effective. I see no other way.

If my right hon. Friend would give a general assurance that that is his intention, it would relieve our anxieties very much.

I thought my hon. Friend was asking for something more than a general assurance from me. I have heard some of my hon. Friends say, very politely, that any assurance which a Minister may give at this juncture must not be regarded as going further than a very short distance.

The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been extraordinarily patient. If he gets up and answers one objection from the hon. Gentlemen behind him, it does not get him much further, because the only effect is that they think of another objection. [ Interruption. ] Hon. Members have done that.

On a point of Order, Mr. Williams, The hon. Member's statement amounts to a charge of obstruction. Is he entitled to make that charge?

It can hardly be said to be a direct charge of obstruction. There are, of course, degrees of opposition which sometimes get near to obstruction, but it does not help to make such charges.

I would not say that hon. Members opposite are particularly helpful at the moment. I want to compare the speech of the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Colegate) and the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major York). The hon. Member for The Wrekin referred to the possibility that one of these war factories might be used for chemical manufacture, in spite of the fact that the House and the town planning authorities might have something to say on the subject. He instanced the case of what happened in Cheshire, where Imperial Chemical Industries had to buy a large area of agricultural land in order to dispose of their waste products. The hon. and gallant Member for Ripon asked why the Government should take power to acquire land adjoining a Government factory, and he said that the owner or purchaser of the Government factory ought to buy the land in the open market. That, of course, is what hon. Members opposite would like. What happens? The Government put up a very expensive factory, and additional land is required to facilitate the proper utilisation of that factory. If the Government have not power to acquire the necessary land compulsorily, then the owner or purchaser of the factory has to go to the open market and pay through the nose for the land. Why are our railways the most expensive railways in the world? The reason is that when they were first built they had no compulsory power to purchase land, and if they wanted to buy land they had not only to buy it, but to buy off the opposition of the landowners. They had to pay tribute and blackmail.

Does the hon. Member propose that the Government should steal the land for nothing?

The hon. Member recommended that the Government should be able to steal it, whereas a private person cannot.

We are now getting at the definition which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has in mind of the word "stealing." Stealing, according to him, means paying the proper value of the land. The Government pay the proper value for it. If there is a valuable factory which is practically useless unless a small parcel of land adjoining it is acquired, that enables the landowner to ask a fantastic price for his land, as has been done many times in the past. That is what the hon. and gallant Member for Newbury (Brigadier-General Clifton Brown) calls honest acquisition.

I do not see how the actual fixing of the price of the land arises at the moment. The subject under discussion is a comparatively narrow one.

With great deference to you, Mr. Williams, surely the price that will have to be paid for land if it is acquired on valuation may be fundamentally different from the price that would have to be paid if there were no power of compulsion.

That is possible. I think that might be used as a short illustration, but I must tell the hon. Gentleman that if he were to develop that matter to the point of considering the whole question of acquisition, that would be going beyond the proper use of the Committee at this time.

Perhaps I got a bit heated, but I think a charge of supporting theft is much worse than an indirect charge of obstruction. The hon. and gallant Gentleman accused me of supporting theft. The position, quite obviously, is this. The Government must have this power, possibly in a large number of cases, possibly in a few cases, if the factories are to be utilised adequately and if profiteering on land adjoining them is to be prevented. There are adequate safeguards. All these suggestions that the provision would be used ruthlessly and to the public detriment are based on the assumption first that the Minister and then that the Commission are likely to behave like lunatics. I do not accept that assumption. There are safeguards for the powers which the Government must have.

I have sympathy for the motive behind the Amendment, but I would like to give the Committee one instance to show that it would be a great mistake to accept the Amendment. There is an underground factory in the West Country which I know very well and which has a war-time housing estate next to it. The factory is no longer needed and it is being closed. The housing estate is a big one which must continue, and work must be found for the people living on it. It seems to me certain that they will not work underground in normal times. In fact it is likely that the underground factory will provide an admirable storage for one of the Service Departments. I think there is not sufficient land to provide industrial facilities for those living on the estate, although all the roads are there and there is electric power and water. Some extension may be required, otherwise the vast sums of money that have been spent on it will be rendered, at any rate in part, valueless. That is just one example which makes me hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will stand firm and resist the Amendment.

4 45 p.m.

The impression left on my mind by the Debate and by the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is that the Clause in its present form is unsatisfactory, and should be withdrawn. The object of requisitioning the land referred to in the Bill was to secure the national safety at a time of emergency. Under this Sub-section the whole object of the requisitioning has been altered. It is to make these factory sites more attractive to a possible buyer—a third party. That seems to me to go very much too far. If the Government had the fullest powers, backed by national opinion on all sides, to acquire whatever land was necessary for a factory for war purposes, why is it now necessary in peace-time to acquire a great deal more land? I cannot see it. I do not think my right hon. Friend has at all adequately met the argument. There is no reason why a Clause should not be put in, or this Clause altered, to make provision for acquiring any rights of access to the factory which it does not now possess. The hon. Member opposite tried to pooh-pooh the argument of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon (Major York)—

On the contrary, I accepted his argument as the real reason for the opposition to the Clause.

Shall I say that the hon. Member threw approbrium on my hon. and gallant Friend's argument? He said that under the Clause the owner of the factory would have to pay the market value for the additional piece of land, which is really what my hon. and gallant Friend said. The factory is there. If he wants additional land let him go into the market and buy it at the market price. The hon. Member opposite said he must have less than the market price because it has been scheduled under this Sub-section. If there is a factory for sale and the buyer wants so many square yards of land to carry out his processes, I do not see why he should not pay the market price for it. He should not have special facilities to get it at less than the market value simply because of this Subsection. I hope my right hon. Friend will see that the Sub-section will be re-drafted to protect the public from being imposed upon in the way suggested.

I intervene to support the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though I think he is quite able to look after himself. I think the hon. Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison) has put his point in the wrong way. What we are after is to protect the public as a whole from individuals taking advantage of the fact that a factory has been brought to a particular spot to pay a higher price for land than would have been the case if the factory had not been brought there for war purposes. That is quite reasonable. These factories are all over the country and it is necessary, in order that they shall be available to provide employment without delay, that they should be switched over from war purposes to ordinary peace-time industry. It is right that there should be access to these factories. If a local landlord is going to be able to exploit the national interest in order to get a special price for his land above the ordinary value that he would be entitled to if no factory had been brought there, a Clause of this kind is vitally necessary.

Why was the necessary amount of land not requisitioned in the first instance? Why, during a war essential to the national safety, was not more land requisitioned to carry on the factory in a satisfactory manner?

The hon. Member asked that question before and the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) very adequately answered him. For war purposes not so much land was necessary. In order to make the factory available for peace-time purposes, in some cases—not all—it may be necessary to get land to provide approaches. All that we are trying to do is to protect the public from exploitation by landlords holding out for an artificial price.

If the Amendment merely covered the case of adding a little piece of land, so that a war-time factory could be adequately converted into a peace-time factory, I should not object to the Clause. I do not go so far as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon (Major York) in saying that the extra little piece should be bought in the open market, because I can see that that would lead to enhanced prices, and I am against that. But the Sub-section covers quite a different sphere to which no one has yet made reference. It seems to me that cases where an extra bit of land would be required for approaches and car parks are likely to be few in number. It does not appear to be in the least correct to say that each case under this Sub-section, if objected to, goes before the Commission, and those were the Financial Secretary's words. He said this was not a case where the opinion of the Minister was final and the Chancellor of the Exchequer said the Commission would have complete control in every case. It seems to me that neither of those statements is accurate. Although the Government may have had the Bill for three years under consideration, it appears to me that it has been so long under consideration that they have forgotten the provisions of Clause 8 (5) because, if the Board of Trade care to certify in respect of industrial premises whether the acquisition comes under Clause 5 (1) ( a ) ( b ) or ( c ) does not matter. It does not go before the Commission at all, and the whole question of the acquisition rests on the opinion of the Minister. That defeats the whole ground of the Financial Secretary's argument that there were adequate safeguards in every case. The answer is that there are not. There is a complete way round.

The second point that I wish to raise is the way in which this neighbouring land can be used. I cannot do better than quote the words used by the Attorney-General last week: time industry. I am entirely in favour of that, but I think that the proposed Government action will indeed be an obstacle in the way of peace-time industry. If you are going to saddle an in dividual industry with the burden of buying parts of a factory which they do not want at prices which are not fair, and are not what the factory is worth, and tell them: "If you do not buy it at the price we want you will lose the whole of your factory which we will dispose of to someone else—"

Does the hon. Member really suggest that that is what the Government are going to do?

I like to see words in an Act of Parliament which limit what can be done. I am saying that this can be done under this Clause as it stands, and the supposition that it is in the contemplation of the Government is strengthened by the Attorney-General asking if it is unreasonable for the Government to do it. Before we pass the Sub-section we must decide that question of principle or, if it is not the intention of the Government to act in this way, we must put in words of limitation. If the Chancellor will say that some words shall be inserted somewhere indicating that the Government do not propose to act in the way the Attorney-General suggested might not be regarded as unreasonable, I should be satisfied. I am quite content to let Ministries have power to round off a factory by an additional purchase of neighbouring land but I am not content to let them have power to exercise that threat over neighbouring factory owners. I hope we shall get the clearest assurance that no action of that sort will be taken by the Ministry. I hope also, in view of what the Chancellor has said about the Commission being final in every case when this action is proposed, that we shall have an assurance that words will be put in Clause 8, Sub-section 5 to make certain that a certificate of the Board of Trade cannot exclude the operation of the Commission.

5.0 p.m.

There was a songster in this country who once wrote:

"A robber band has seized our land

And we are strangers here"

As one of the strangers, I might take the opportunity of making a remark or two on this proposal. I would preface it by saying that I hope the people of this country will read the discussions on this Bill. I hope the soldiers who are fighting for this country will read the report and will decide that the time has come when the people should own the country and not a gang of racketeers. We are told by a Member opposite that when the Government offer a factory to somebody and it requires an added bit of land, the new owner should go into the market and pay the market price. When you go into the market in the ordinary sense of the term it is not a one-sided affair. If the hon. Member went into the market for a bit of land and had the choice of land in Lancashire at 1s. an acre and of similar land in Yorkshire at £10 an acre, he would take the land at is. If, however, he had a factory in Yorkshire he could not pick it up and go into Lancashire with it. There is no question here of going into the open market for the land. It is a question of the Government realising whatever value there may be in a factory, and that value is determined by the use to which it can be put. In order to get the best use out of a factory, it may be necessary to extend it. Take the case of a local authority which is planning, as many are, the extension of industry in their areas in order to lift the standard of their community. The Government may have a factory on one side of the road, and the local authority might decide to buy it with the idea of extending it to the other side of the road, with a connecting bridge. Is that local authority to be denied this opportunity, or is it to be left at the mercy of some landowner? If hon. Members opposite are so keen about paying market value for land, let us find out whether those who own the land paid the market value for it. It will be found that many of them did not pay anything.

Is the hon. Member's theory that if you pinch Latvia, you can have Poland as well?

I would be very satisfied if somebody pinched South Croydon, provided the hon. Member went along with it. There is not a Member, no matter how much he is associated with the land, who can justify the suggestion that a factory should be offered by the Govern- ment to an individual or group with, a view to its being used in the interests of industrial development, and that there should not be as well the opportunity for the most immediate and easy entry into the factory and a guarantee to the individual or group that land for an extension would be available without any possibility of racketeering by landowners. The feature of any modern factory are the adjacent playing fields for the workers. In the future we are not just going to have factories like some old-time barracks, in which the workers spend a certain time and then go home to sleep. We do not want factories like that. They must have spaces around or on neighbouring ground where the workers can have playing fields. I have a factory in mind which has a splendid sports field about five minutes' walk away. We do not want to stretch it as far as that in connection with this Bill. We want to ensure that when a firm takes over the works, they will not merely say, "We will buy the works for so much," but that they will determine the use to which the works will be put, how the workers are to work, how they are to be cared for and what amenities they will be given. No Member who puts the welfare of the country and the people before any private interests would support the deletion of this Sub-section.

I should have suspected the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) of being a supporter of the Chancellor in this matter, because he is in favour of Government Departments dispossessing all businesses and owners of their property and managing them for the State. He and I, therefore, are poles apart on this Amendment. What worries me is that the Sub-section deals primarily with additions to factories, and the danger is that the Government have the power, and will use the power, to sell a factory to a business man who is presumably a rival of the owner of adjacent or contiguous land. We can all think of cases in our constituencies of war factories causing great inconvenience to small business men near by. Unless we amend this Sub-section, the party who will take over the Government factory will be able to use a species of blackmail by saying to the small owner of adjacent land, "You must make these terms with me or I shall get a Government Department to exercise compulsory powers over you." I am sure the Chancellor does not want that to happen. This is not a very well-drafted Clause, although it has been three years in process of drafting, and I am sure that unless it is amended there will be that grave danger.

If there are a large Government factory and a small shop, is it suggested that the interests of the small shopkeeper should weigh against that of a factory costing perhaps £500,000? If the small shop is essential, what will be the position?

I am representing my constituents, and I say that they should not be unreasonably dispossessed. If it is to the good of the community that they should go, they should be paid a proper market price. I know in the neighbourhood of York of a small man who for five years has carried on under unbelievable conditions next to a big war factory. Why should that man, because of some Clause in this Bill, not receive a proper price for what has been in his case a lifetime of work?

This Sub-section is abstracted from the Defence Act, 1916, but in that Act there was a different procedure. While Section 3 (2) is identical in effect, Clause 5 provided that before a Government Department sold any land they would give the right to the former owner to be the purchaser. That is not present in this Bill, and because of that there is the danger of blackmail to which I have referred. It is because Government Departments have power to sell land to somebody else, land that was not requisitioned by the Government in war-time, that this danger of blackmail occurs. The Chancellor has said more than once that it will be all right because the decision of the Commission is final. Never have I heard a Minister of the Crown so completely defeated in argument as he was by my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller). This question of factories has been taken out of the sphere of the Commission. I think the Chancellor should take the opportunity of putting it right.

5.15 p.m.

Will my hon. Friend forgive me if I interrupt? I have given way to him on more than one occasion. If my hon. Friend will study closely the provisions of Sub-section (5) of Clause 8 of the Bill to which the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) referred—this is the point on which my hon. Friend said the Chancellor was completely defeated by the hon. Member for Daventry—he will see that the Clause does not cover neighbouring or adjacent land at all.

I am surprised that when the remark was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry, neither the Chancellor nor the Financial Secretary took the opportunity of interrupting.

Although it may have been pointed out in private later, I am not sure I accept it.

We have three classes of cases. In one class—5 (1) ( a )—the decision of the Commission is final, and in the other two classes the Commission can be overridden by the Government Department. Does the Chancellor intend to limit Sub-section 2 to cases under 5 (1) ( a )? In his speech he said he imagined that the vast majority of cases would come under 5 (1) ( a ). Surely there would be no difficulty in altering the wording and making it read:

"In any case under paragraph ( a ) of the preceding Sub-section."

That would ensure that the Commission would always have the final word in these difficult cases of adjacent or contiguous land. I am convinced that all those cases which were mentioned with regard to access are pertinent to this Clause. There is no difficulty about giving access. It does not involve selling the land. All one has to do is to keep the land under the present ownership and to give access to and from the factory to some other person. I ask the Chancellor to give way to some extent on this Sub-section. As it is drafted, there is considerable apprehension. [An HON. MEMBER: "Rubbish."] If the hon. Member would go around his constituency and ask any small businessman he would find that grave apprehension exists on this Sub-section.

All the discussion I have heard so far has centred on the possibilities of what might happen to Government factories. I do not wish to underrate the importance of that issue, but I wish to point out that this Clause does not relate only to factories. The operative part of the Clause says "Where there are Government war works on the land." A Government war work in this connection is any piece of work carried out by the Government. This applies not merely to factories but to buildings which the Government have put up and to all sorts of private property.

I wish to take a concrete case and show how this Clause may, conceivably, be applied. A concrete case here may be worth many minutes of abstract argument. I have on the island of Hayling, a holiday camp and I am chairman of the company which owns it. When the war came the Government commandeered that camp. I make no objection to that; I do complain about the amount of compensation they gave me for it, but that is another story. While the camp was in possession of the Admiralty the main dance and dining hall of the camp was burned down, not by enemy action, but by some carelessness, or an accident, and the building was completely destroyed. The Admiralty thereupon erected upon the site of the destroyed building another hall, this time built of brick. It cost probably three times as much as the wooden structure which it superseded, but from the point of view of a holiday camp it is utterly useless to the proprietors when the war comes to an end, because down the centre of that hall there are two-feet brick pillars which make the place useless as a dance hall or dining-room.

On a point of Order. I was trying to see some connection between this sad story of the dance hall and the words of the Sub-section which give power to buy adjacent or neighbouring land. I have failed to do so, and I would ask whether the hon. Member is in Order.

I have been waiting to hear the development of the hon. Member's argument, and hoping that he would arrive at something which would put him in Order.

With great respect, I am not in the habit of addressing unrelated or disconnected arguments to the Chair. I assure you, Dr. Haden Guest, that the relevance of this argument will become abundantly apparent. When I was inter- rupted I was saying that on this site the Admiralty erected a building at a cost of about £8,500—three times the cost of the building which it superseded. When the war ends the Admiralty will be empowered to say to my particular company that they intend to charge us the cost of that building which as utterly useless to us, and if we do not agree—and this is the case which the hon. Member for Daventry was putting—

I am aware of that, but it has to be considered in relation to other Clauses. If we do not agree, then the Government will dispossess us under this Clause. They have not only the power of taking over the holiday camp but the house and grounds adjoining it. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] Certainly, and they can either keep it for themselves or sell it to somebody else, probably one of my competitors.

As I understand, if the Government set up a works, they can decide to use it or give it to some other person. Does the hon. Member suggest that the Admiralty will run a dance hall and take the adjacent land?

The hon. Member does not keep up with the news. There has recently been presented to the Ministry of Labour a report from the catering business, proposing that the Government should do precisely that, and should go into the holiday camp business. Here is one Government Department going into the holiday camp business, and another Government Department taking my holiday camp if I do not pay for a building which is useless to me. I have had during this war enough dealings with Government Departments to make me very nearly an anti-Socialist. [ Interruption. ] I said "very nearly." I was restrained from saying "completely" because I know the passion for liberty which animates hon. Members on these benches. I submit we ought not to give the Chancellor of the Exchequer the vast powers contained in this Clause, until we know how he will use them. I have seen during this war powers used and abused by a Government on a scale which I, as an old civil servant, thought I should never live to see. I have seen the Gov- ernment repudiate moral obligations which were as stark and sharply outlined as they possibly could be. From now on, this Committee would be well advised never to give powers to a Government merely on the supposition that they will be used reasonably. We had better be quite sure that they cannot be unreasonably used. I have mentioned the case of one holiday camp. There are 120 others on which works of one sort or another have been erected, and the whole industry for which I speak desires to know what will happen under this Clause. Until we obtain from the Chancellor assurances which remove these fears, we should not give him these powers.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer assured the Committee that all these questions would be put before a Commission, but my difficulty is that there is nothing in this Clause which says so. It is not the assurance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that we want. We want something in the Bill which will reassure the House that the Commission will really attend to all this acquisition of property. My next point is: On what law will this acquisition of property be based? We know that during the war property has been acquired by the Government at ridiculous prices. Who will assess the value of the property? I want the Chancellor to tell us if that matter will also be delegated to the Commission, and whether they will have power to settle the price of this property. If the Chancellor, or the Government, are dependent on old Acts of Parliament, by which ridiculous prices have been paid by the Government, we ought to know, and the people of whose property the Government are going to take possession ought to know. There should be in the Bill something which will enable the people to appreciate that, although the Government will acquire this additional property, they do not intend to steal it as they have done under old Acts of Parliament. Perhaps some assurance could be given to the Committee on this point.

5.30 p.m.

I never expected to find myself in such close accord with the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) as I did this afternoon. Perhaps I can carry a little further the illustration which he gave, until it reduces the whole of the situation to an absurdity. It is a very simple matter. It is my own home. Very little has been spent on the property, but outside the Government have expended very large sums of money, principally upon a sewage plant. That is a war work. The sewage plant cannot be effectively used without the permanent acquisition of the house. The cost of the work which has been carried out exceeds the cost of the house. Therefore, as I understand it, there is a perfect opportunity for the Government to acquire the house in order to use it in conjunction with the sewage plant. A more ridiculous situation can hardly be imagined. That is a fact.

The only point upon which I join issue with the hon. Member for Rugby is that he says he does not desire to give the Government these powers until there has been further explanation as to the Government's intention to use them. I go further than that. I called attention on the Second Reading to the fact that the Government, according to statements then made, were seeking powers which they did not propose to put into operation, and I said that it was very bad law for the Government to take powers which they did not require. I still maintain that that is a sound point. We have no right whatever to give the Government powers the use of which cannot be foreseen and which are bound to be an infringement of private rights.

To look at the matter in the light of another illustration, let us suppose that the Government were to come to the Committee and say that they wanted to spend £10,000,000 to build a warship, but they did not disclose what the warship was going to be. Suppose it was revealed later that the warship was a torpedo boat and not a battleship at all; would the Committee have done right in not asking for what purpose the Government wanted to use that money? The Committee would have been authorising the Government to dispose of a very much larger sum of money than was required. That is exactly what is being proposed now. The Government are seeking authority far in excess of immediate requirements. It is all very well for the Government to say that such a thing as taking one property to hand over to a competitor will not take place; it has, in fact, taken place during the war. There are precedents for it. I know a case in which the Government requisitioned a small shipyard, and when great pressure was put upon them to enable the owner of the shipyard to carry on his business, they requisitioned a second and adjoining shipyard, the property of somebody else, in order that the second shipyard should be used by the first shipyard-owner to carry on his business.

That is likely to be done in future under the Bill, and I therefore add my plea to those which have been made to the Chancellor that he should limit the powers he is seeking to those which are necessary and essential. It is clear that the Committee do not wish to deprive the Government of power to acquire land which is immediately necessary, but this is a far greater and wider power, which goes well beyond any bounds of what is reasonably foreseeable as necessary. If it is not possible for the words to be deleted altogether perhaps the Chancellor could indicate that he will accept a very strict limitation of them.

I hope that the Chancellor will give some concession, if not now, then when we reach the Report stage. I have tried to look at the effect of these words. I ask hon. Members to realise that the words "Government war works" cover almost anything. On page 34 the Bill says that Government war works are:

"works constructed in the course of Government war work."

When I look to see what "works" means, I read:

"Buildings, structures and improvements."

That, I presume, means any work the Government do in any building they requisition, so that the Government may do £100 worth of work in a requisitioned building which is worth £10,000. It goes on:

"(and, in particular, underground works and telegraphic lines), and references to the construction of works shall be construed accordingly."

I do not set myself up as a Parliamentary draftsman, but it seems to me that wherever the Government have put down anything in any kind of way they can act under the Bill. I honestly think the Committee wish to give the Chancellor reasonable powers, but I differ from Labour Members as to what is meant by "the public."

If there is a works, it does not matter what kind of building it is, and it is desirable that it should be put to the best use. Surely any land that is essential for ensuring that object should be available.

My hon. Friend and I differ as to the meaning of the words "best use."

Perhaps my hon. Friend and I can settle the point outside the Committee. The proposed powers of the Chancellor may be applied to cases throughout this country where the Government have done perhaps only a little bit of work. We want to be quite sure that we are not creating legislation which can be abused.

I would like to support what was said by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chichester (Lieut.-Commander Joynson-Hicks). Also, it is not the first time that I have found myself in agreement with the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown), and I do find myself very much in agreement with what he has said to-day.

I can assure the Chancellor that hon. Members who, with myself, are associated with the Amendment, appreciate his courtesy and moderation. He has listened to our arguments with patience. We have no doubt that his intentions are very good—I am aware that the road to a certain place is traditionally associated with good intentions, but I do not mean it in that sense—I am sure that he means well towards the class of people we have in mind, but I would appeal to him in support of the suggestion which was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller). He should give us an assurance that this power will be used only in a moderate sense; or preferably he should withdraw these words and submit limited wording at a later stage in the proceedings.

We have had a long discussion on this Amendment. My right hon. Friend has made two speeches on it and I have made one. Very few new points have emerged in the last hour or so. Two new points were those of my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chichester (Lieut-Commander Joynson-Hicks). The first was a suggestion that the assurances which my right hon. Friend and I gave that all cases involving purchases of neighbouring or adjacent land coming under the Sub-section would go to the Commission were inaccurate. We have not yet reached Clause 8 (5) and we can discuss the point when we get there, but I am sure that it contains no power whatever to purchase neighbouring or adjacent land. I am equally sure that all cases where the purchase of neighbouring or adjacent land was proposed would go to the Commission. I am quite clear that the assurances are accurate, and I repeat them to the Committee.

The second point, which is rather new, was that it was possible that my hon. and gallant Friend's dwelling-house might be acquired in order to complete a good scheme for the treatment of sewage. To start with, I cannot imagine such a case coming under Clause 5. In any event, I draw my hon. and gallant Friend's attention to the fact that very special protection is giving to dwelling-houses by Clauses 9 and 11. More than one part of these Clauses does so. I honestly think that my hon. and gallant Friend can sleep quietly in his bed and need not regard seriously any threat that his house will be pulled down in order to increase the extent of a sewage works. I have covered the new points, and I hope that now, after nearly three hours' discussion on the first Amendment, the Committee may come to a decision.

5.45 p.m.

Can we be given information as to who settles the value of the land so acquired?

That is not settled under this Bill; it is quite separate. Proceedings under this Bill precede the initiation of compulsory purchase. This Bill deals with things that happen before the notice to treat is served. Questions of compensa- tion and so on do not fall under this Bill at all.

My right hon. Friend knows that the assurances given by himself and his right hon. Friend are of no value if the question comes before the court. What the courts would look at is, what are the words of the Section? Surely my right hon. Friend could put some confining words in the Section? I understand he sympathises a great deal with what has been said. If the Clause was redrafted so that the words were put in the Bill I think it would be better.

I hope the Financial Secretary is proposing to say something about the points I put to him. What I have said calls for some sort of reply.

I should be surprised if the hon. Member charged me with discourtesy. He was not present throughout all the earlier part of the discussion. He did not hear the main arguments addressed in favour of or against the Amendment, and he came in and delivered himself of a speech which, to my mind, was very largely irrelevant to the subject before the Committee.

That seems to be a reflection upon the Temporary Chairman. It seems to me that the Financial Secretary ought to reply to what I said.

On a point of Order. You, Dr. Haden Guest, said you would like to be shown the relevance of the hon. Member's remarks. The hon. Member said if you waited long enough you would see their relevance. We have all waited for a long time, and we have not yet seen the relevance.

I have not been present at as much of this discussion as I should have liked, but that does not deprive me of my rights. What worried me when I first read this Bill was the seven-word phrase in this very Subsection

"which in the opinion of the Minister, …"

I have always thought that those are most undesirable words. I remember the acrimonious Debates we had years ago on the words "genuinely seeking work," and how nothing could be done about that, because one could not examine the state of mind of the person concerned as to whether he was genuinely seeking work. The opinion of the Minister cannot be examined before the court. It is like Regulation 18B under which a person, because of the opinion of a Minister, is locked up and cannot challenge that in the courts. The Financial Secretary said that when we came to Clause 8, Subsection (5) everything would be all right, but in that Sub-section are the words "where the Board of Trade certify." If the Board of Trade certify, one cannot examine the mind of the President of the Board of Trade. He is given power of certification, which cannot be challenged in the courts. "In the opinion of the Minister" cannot be challenged. The Financial Secretary shakes his head. He has a Law Officer of the Crown next to him, and there is another Law Officer present. We have had Debates beyond measure on Regulation 18B, and it has always been said that the opinion of the Minister cannot be challenged in the courts. As far as I know the certificate cannot be challenged. That is a legal point. The Attorney-General is here. Will he tell me whether I am wrong when I say that the words "in the opinion of" cannot be challenged in a court [ Interruption ]? I happen to believe in liberty. The Chancellor of the Exchequer does not. He believes in having powers to lock people up. I happen not to hold a Fascist doctrine. I think there must be appeals to independent tribunals. Here we have right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite wanting these powers, which cannot be challenged in any court. That is why I do not like this Sub-section.

In order that the Minister may have an opportunity of redrafting this Clause, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

No.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'adjoining,' in line 26, stand part of the Clause."

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

Mr. PYM and Mr. BUCHAN-HEPBURN were appointed Tellers for the Ayes, but there being no Members willing to act as Tellers for the Noes, the CHAIRMAN declared that the Ayes had it.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 26, leave out "adjoining or neighbouring," and insert "contiguous or adjacent."

We have spent three hours debating the principle, and I shall not make any attempt to continue that discussion. This Amendment is simply concerned with the choice of words. This question came up when the Town and Country Planning Bill was before the House last year. The word "adjacent" was in that Measure. I took the opportunity of moving an Amendment to add the word "contiguous." It would be unwise, after what the Financial Secretary has said, to go into the long argument which took place on that occasion. I would simply say that the matter was fairly considered by the Attorney-General, who agreed with the words I am now proposing, and said they fully implemented the purposes of that Measure. In view of the fact that the assertion has been made that this Amendment is likely to be accepted, I will not take up the time of the Committee in saying anything more.

As I indicated earlier, we shall be very pleased to accept my hon. Friend's Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 26, after "which," insert:

"is in the possession of the Minister and used by him for purposes essential to the carrying on of the works and."

My hon. Friends and I recognise that this Clause is necessary. We are also well aware that there is some alarm that this Clause might conceivably be used to facilitate great expansion, which I am sure the present Minister does not contemplate, on the part of the companies or firms to whom these works are handed over. We have tried to produce words which would retain the power of the Minister to take over adjoining land, in so far as it was in use with the existing works, such as means of access, which have been occupied but not requisitioned. It would, I think, cover playing fields in common user, in connection with such matters as drainage. There are hundreds of cases in which the factory and its accessories have expanded beyond the requisitioned land. We recognise that these ought to be acquirable with the works, and that it should be possible to pass them on to the future occupant of the works for peace purposes, but it is important to allay a fear that this Clause might be used for a very wide expansion of work erections, which I do not think is intended.

6.0 p.m.

I have some sympathy with the object which my right hon. and gallant Friend has in view, which is to make sure that neighbouring land is only acquired where it

"is in the possession of the Minister and used by him for purposes essential for the carrying on of the works."

The words of the Clause are:

"land which, in the opinion of the Minister, must be held with the site of the works if the works are to be properly utilised and maintained."

On the second part of the Amendment, there is not much difference between the words of my right hon. and gallant Friend and the words in the Clause. My right hon. and gallant Friend will bear in mind that this is not a case where the opinion of the Minister has any executive authority of any kind, because it will go to the Commission and the Commission will judge whether the opinion held by the Minister is justifiable or not, and whether the land needs to be acquired for the purposes of Clause 5. There is a more substantial objection to the Amendment in so far as it contains the words: "is in the possession of the Minister." Government war works have been erected on land not in the possession of the Minister, and not subject to requisitioning. In many cases the Government have erected Government war works without any requisitioning. There are also cases in which the Government have put up the money for the extension of a factory where the Government themselves are not in actual possession—where the person in possession is the manufacturer. For those reasons it is clear that the Amendment would be unsuitable. As I have said, we have sympathy with the idea that the acquisition of adjoining or neighbouring land may be absolutely necessary for making a good scheme, and that is a matter in which the Commission will be the judges. I hope that, with that explanation, my right hon. and gallant Friend will withdraw the Amendment.

Is the executive authority in these cases in the hands of the Commission?

The decision in the ordinary case is with the Commission and it is final. There is some very elaborate machinery in one Clause, where Government policy is involved, whereby a Minister dissatisfied with the Commission's report may ask for it to be overridden if he comes to Parliament and lays documents.

Is this matter going to be taken into consideration, as the Chancellor has already promised consideration on the last Amendment, or is this Amendment to be turned down altogether? This is only another proposal to make that drastic Sub-section a little less extreme, and I think it is necessary in order to achieve the consequences which have been promised. The Financial Secretary said that the object was only to get little bits of land for the building of garages and that sort of thing; but these factories which have been up for years, and are now in full blast, should already have acquired the necessary bits of land contiguous to them for such purposes; and if that has not been done it will be waste of money to do it at all. I hope that my right hon. Friend will reconsider this matter. The words "in the possession of the Minister" may be a little excessive, but I think we should be careful of allowing these factories to take any further land.

My right hon. Friend gave no pledge whatever on the preceding Amendment to reconsider the matter. He is quite clear, and so am I, that we have found the most apt words for the purpose we have in view, which we have explained to the Committee. I do not think my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newbury (Brigadier-General Clifton Brown) has appreciated that the peace-time user of factories purchased and disposed of under Clause 5 may be quite different from their war-time user, and that the amount of land required adjacent to or neighbouring the factory may differ. That is why it may be necessary to acquire the land under Sub-section (2).

The Financial Secretary said some words which were intended to appease. He was asked whether the Commission had any executive power, and he said that the Minister can override it. The overriding power is contained in Clause 9, Sub-section (1). So far as I can see, the Minister can override whatever he likes. The Chancellor says, "No," but the Sub-section says that the Minister may proceed with the acquisition

"if the ground, or one of the grounds, of the proposed acquisition was that the right to use or determine the use of works ought to be preserved or secured by the acquisition."

That seems a pretty drastic power. The Financial Secretary says that Parliamentary proceedings follow. What Parliamentary proceedings? These come in Sub-section (6) of Clause 9, which says:

"Before proceeding with any proposals otherwise than in accordance with the report of the Commission, the Minister shall lay before both Houses of Parliament a copy of the report and a statement of the reasons why he intends to proceed to carry out the proposals notwithstanding the report."

Are those all the Parliamentary proceedings?

My right hon. Friend has indicated that he will add words to provide for a negative Resolution of this House.

We are all busy studying the Income Tax Bill, and I must admit that I had not reached that Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

On Thursday I asked the Financial Secretary whether requisitioned land, when it was being purchased for civil aviation, would come under this Bill or under the Air Navigation Act. The Financial Secretary gave a somewhat ambiguous answer. He admitted that it was a point of some difficulty, but said that where war works had been erected on requisitioned land for the requirements of civil aviation the procedure would be that laid down under this Bill. I have, in the meantime, tried to examine the position under the Air Navigation Act, 1920, which seems to give very wide powers to the Minister of Civil Aviation when he is appointed—that is, the power to acquire land under the Military Lands Acts for the purposes of the Air Navigation Act, and generally for the purposes of civil aviation. The learned Attorney is here, and he can advise us. It would be a great mistake to pass this Clause and apply these words in such a way as to prevent cases where land is required for civil aviation coming under the protection of the Commission. The only question probably is one of law, on which the learned Attorney-General can enlighten us.

When we were discussing the acquisition of adjacent and neighbouring land we assumed, possibly, that the man whose land was to be acquired would suffer in his business or trade. I assumed that he would be bought out at the 1939 value, under the Town and Country Planning Act. One of the objects of the Commission is to see that public moneys which have been expended are protected, and the Commission will have that in view when they have to come to a decision on whether adjacent land should be acquired in order that a factory should be able to work. But will the Commission have open to them facts and figures as to the financial effects on the neighbour whose land will be compulsorily acquired? It seems to me that unless the Commission have all that knowledge before them they will not be able to get a fair picture of what the net effect will be on the public purse. Obviously, if a man whose land had been acquired was entitled to heavy compensation for disturbance and disruption of his business, the ultimate saving to the State might not be anything like what at first sight it would seem.

On the civil aerodrome point, the position is that this Bill does not take away the powers which already exist under the Air Navigation Act, but, of course, there may be cases which come within this Bill because war works have been done in connection with an aerodrome which it is desired should be purchased under the powers of the Bill in order that it may be used or transferred to some local authority, or whatever it may be, as a civil aerodrome. The powers under the Air Navigation Act are not affected, but the powers under this Bill are somewhat more extensive. If an aerodrome can be purchased under this Bill there is no doubt that powers under this Bill will be used.

May I correct a misstatement that I made to my hon. Friend when he put this point to me on the Second Reading? I then said that I thought that if the air navigation powers were used the Minister would have to pay compensation which disregarded the fact that he had spent money. I was wrong. That provision in the compensation law is amended by later Sections. My hon. and gallant Friend may or may not be satisfied, but the position is that the powers under the old Act are available and could be used, but I am told that, where an aerodrome comes under this Act, there is, in fact, no doubt that the powers under this Act will be used.

6.15 p.m.

That is not the point which I was making on Thursday, when the right hon. and learned Gentleman was not in the Chamber. The words are:

"… and the case is not one where the land can be acquired under the Defence Acts …"

I was suggesting then, and I am suggesting now, that the Air Navigation Act cancels the Defence Acts, because the Section to which I referred quotes all these military land Acts, which, I understand, are Defence Acts.

The purchase of land for a civil aerodrome would not be covered by the Defence Acts. With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing), the position would be that a person whose adjoining land was proposed to be purchased, has a right of objection and audience before the Commission, and it would be for him to put before them any facts which, in his view, were relevant, and he would have the full right to put before them the type of facts which my hon. Friend referred to as an argument against his land being purchased.

We have been talking mainly about factories up to now, but there is a problem arising out of defence works. For example, all round the coast, as we know, there are great blocks of concrete—about 5 foot cubes and about 5 yards apart. I do not know how many hundreds of miles there are of them, but some are quite near to my home, and many are on private land. It is quite conceivable that the Secretary of State for War might say "We must keep these blocks until the next war comes along." Personally, I think it would be stupid, but they might do that. In my constituency, or adjoining it, they dug great holes in the ground as tank traps, which are now no longer necessary. What assurance can we have that defence works of that sort will, in fact, be removed, and that the powers of this Bill could not be used for the purpose of retaining them against the public interest?

May I suggest to my hon. Friend that there will be a far better chance of raising that point on the next Clause? It really is not relevant now. This is a question of acquiring valuable works, and that is the purpose of Clause 5.

The words "war works" includes what I have described. A concrete block is a war work.

Under the Air Navigation Act it would not be possible to purchase land for a civil aerodrome. That is what I understood the Attorney-General to say.

I said the exact opposite. I said that this Bill did not affect the powers under the Air Navigation Act to purchase land for civil aerodromes, and where this Bill applies, I am assured, the Air Ministry or other Ministry concerned will use the provisions of this Act.

As I understand it, under the provisions of Section 15 of the Air Navigation Act, power is given to the Secretary of State to acquire land adjoining for the purpose of civil aviation. There is also power under this Bill for the Secretary of State, or, presumably, the Minister for Civil Aviation, to acquire land for civil aerodromes. Therefore, there appears to be a duplication.

I am not at all sure that that is a wise way of going about it. Surely, if you are going to give very extensive powers to a Government Department to buy vast areas of land—one has only to see Heath Row to realise the vastness of the area that may be involved, and I went over it on Monday, in spite of Defence Regulations—if this duplicated power is to be given, it seems to me that it will be bad legislation.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 6.—(Depreciated Land.)

I beg to move, in page 3, line 33, to leave out from "Minister," to end of line 40.

This Amendment is, in effect, to leave out paragraph ( a ). It is an important Amendment. It is a matter to which my right hon. Friend referred in the course of the Debate on the Second Reading. We have been discussing a Clause which, broadly speaking, deals with cases where Government war work has added value to the land. Clause 6 deals with cases where Government war work, or other Government operations, have taken value away from the land or have damaged the land. As originally intended, Clause 6 had to deal with two quite separate cases. In paragraph ( a ), it was intended to deal with cases where the cost of restoring the land was likely to exceed the amount by which the value of the land had been diminished by the Government work. Paragraph ( b ), on the other hand, deals with a totally different case—the case in which it is desirable, in the public interest, that the land should be dealt with in a particular way for rehabilitation. It was a criticism in the Press before the Second Reading Debate that paragraph ( a ) of the Clause might be used so as to inflict injustice.

In order to explain how that position arises, I must refer to Section 3 of the Compensation (Defence) Act of 1939. That Section, in cases where the Government enter upon land for emergency purposes, and damage the land, fixes the compensation to be paid at the cost of restoration, the ceiling being the value of the land: that is to say, the compensation under the Act of 1939 can never exceed the value of the land. It was represented that under paragraph ( a ) the Government might purchase land which had been seriously damaged, in order to avoid paying a precisely similar sum in compensation under the Defence Acts, and that the result would be that, in the one case—where the Government exercised their powers under Clause 6—the Government would have the land and the owner would have the amount of cash representing the 1939 value of the land, whereas in the second case—if the Government did not exercise their rights under Clause 6 but merely paid compensation up to the ceiling permitted by the 1939 Acts—the owner would have his land, for what his land in a damaged state was worth, but he would also have the 1939 value paid to him as compensation. It was therefore suggested that we might use this Sub-section to inflict injustice and to purchase land, not in order to restore it, but merely in order to leave it derelict and avoid a huge charge for compensation and to have something eventually to set against the compensation which had become payable. It was also suggested that paragraph ( a ) might be used for the expropriation of common land.

In view of all that criticism, the Chancellor said in the Second Reading Debate that he would move to delete this paragraph. The result of that deletion will be that the Clause will then apply only to the cases where it is desirable in the public interest that the land should be dealt with in a particular manner for the purpose of rehabilitation. That is to say, the Clause will be purely an ameliorative Clause. In this connection, the idea that the Government have in their minds is that as great a degree of restoration should be effected as is possible. After the last war a great many eyesores were left, and a great many derelict areas. Our object this time is to avoid the mistake made on the last occasion.

There are other important Clauses in the Bill which also touch on this subject. I would refer hon. Members to Clauses 27 and 28. The first enables the Minister to remain in possession of land for a certain period, and Clause 28 enables him to carry out the work of restoration during this prolonged period. Clause 47 is also a very important Clause, because it enables the Minister to pay more than the ceiling of compensation established by the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, where the owner of the land undertakes to carry out the restoration. The power contained in paragraph ( b ) of Sub-section (1) of Clause 6 is a further power to enable restoration to take effect. In some cases the Government will purchase under this Clause in order themselves to carry out restoration, and that may particularly be so where there is a multiplicity of small owners and a large plot of land which has been damaged—where the Government can more conveniently than anybody else carry out the rehabilitation.

This Clause will also be used in another way, and that is as a lever to induce landlords whose land has been damaged to come forward themselves with rehabilitation schemes. Clause 47 enables them to get whatever is necessary by way of money to carry out the necessary rehabilitation. It will be seen, therefore, that Clause 6, amended as the Chancellor now proposes, is a Clause which will go a very long way to securing that object which I am quite sure the whole Committee have at heart—that is to say, the greatest possible amount of effective restoration of land which has been damaged, and necessarily damaged, during the course of the war.

The Financial Secretary recommended, when speaking on Clause 5, that I should raise my point on this Clause. Suppose the Government do nothing. Suppose this obstruction remains. What recourse has the citizen against the State?

On a point of Order. I have an Amendment on the Paper to meet that point.

Perhaps the Chair will be kind enough to indicate whether the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend will be called, because, if it is to be called, I shall not pursue my point at this stage.

To which Amendment is the hon. and gallant Member for North Kensington referring?

The Amendment in my name to page 4, line 9—the last Amendment on Clause 6—to add:

(3) In any case where the power of acquisition shall have been exercised under this Section, it shall be the duty of the Minister to undertake the rehabilitation of that land as soon as may be and in any case before the expiration of four years from the end of the war period.

It was the Amendment of my hon. Friends and myself to which the Chancellor attached his name, and the only thing that I want to do now is to thank him for having done so. Directly this Bill was introduced, I took strong exception to paragraph ( a ), which was the most suspicious part of this Bill, and I am most grateful to the Chancellor for having repented of the evil that he was going to do, and for having re-formed and re-shaped the Bill by taking that action.

The Financial Secretary, in moving this Amendment, made a statement which I think would be helpful if he could expand it in greater detail. He told us how Clause 6 would not operate in connection with the rehabilitation of land, and drew our attention to certain other Clauses. He then made the statement that where land had been depreciated it will be possible for the owner to go to the Commission and ask for power to rehabilitate the land. My hon. Friend and I were of the opinion that that power was not in the Bill, and for that reason we have put down a new Clause dealing with that point. Therefore it will be helpful if the Financial Secretary will say where that power is, or if it will be in the Clause as a result of the present Amendment. If it is there it will not be necessary for us to pursue the point later on, and his explanation will save the time of the Committee. I would like to say that in view of the Amendment made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer the attitude of my hon. Friends and myself to the Bill has been altered. We did feel that there was very great danger that derelict places would be left all over England after the war, but this Amendment has entirely changed our views.

As another of the Members who had their names to the Amendment I join with the others in offering to the Chancellor my thanks for adopting it. It does remove a very real fear among many people of what would be a possible result of having the Bill in its first state, and I am accordingly grateful to my right hon. Friend. I was extraordinarly interested in what the Financial Secretary said in regard to the intention of the Government as to rehabilitation. This is an immense problem, and I only hope that what is to be done will be as beneficial as we believe it will be. There have been cases already, and there is one in particular in the county in which I live, in which such work has been undertaken by the Government. We do believe that in most of the big cases the Government ought to undertake this particular kind of work themselves.

It has been pointed out that there is another Amendment on this point and I think that would be the appropriate place for its discussion.

On that point of Order. Attention has been drawn to the fact that there is another Amendment in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for North Kensington (Captain Duncan) in which he refers to "Any case where the power of acquisition shall have been exercised." The point I wish to raise concerns where the power of acquisition has not been exercised. I wish to pursue that and to get some assurance on what the Government will do where places have been left derelict.

I think the point that the hon. and gallant Member is referring to is covered in a later Amendment and that would be the appropriate place for its discussion. If it is not that point to which he wishes to refer, then he can go on.

In that case I will say nothing more about it, except to welcome the statement of the Financial Secretary.

I regret in some ways that the power to acquire land is to be given up. In a previous Amendment there was a measure of agreement between Members on the fact that we did not want to see derelict works left all over the place. Many of us looking out of the train as we travel through the country, have seen these places, and they are an eyesore and a heartsore. So far as the dropping of this Sub-section will give a guarantee that there will be no more of the derelict areas, the Amendment will be welcome, but I still regret the giving up of the power of acquisition. I would rather the Chancellor had said: "I will requisition the land but I will guarantee to remove the works so that nothing will be left derelict." However, I accept the Amendment as an intention to ensure that no derelicts will be left.

It looks to me as if the only opportunity we shall have of discussing this problem is now, because the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for North Kensington (Captain Duncan) only covers the cases where the power of acquisition has been exercised. There is another Amendment in the name of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hughes) but that only deals with common land and public open spaces. There is nothing to assure us that what the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) has just referred to, the derelicts, are to be dealt with, and I am concerned with this point. There are many of these derelict works, particularly around the coast, which if they are not moved, will be permanent inconveniences to the public. I want to have some assurance that positive action will be taken by the Government to clear them away as soon as convenient. I know that it would mean the use of labour, vehicles and other things, even dynamite in some cases, to shift them, but we ought to have some assurance that the coasts of Britain are not going to be blocked up by these works. It is very difficult for a private individual to force the Government—

I am sorry to intervene, but I do not think that this is the right place to discuss this matter. The Amendment refers to Clause 6, which, as hon. Members know, deals with depreciated land and is concerned with the deletion of a Sub-section of that Clause. Clearly this does not permit of a discussion on the whole question of the rehabilitation of land.

On that point of Order, I quite see the reason why you have pulled me up, but we are still discussing the Clause and it is still in the Bill at the moment. What I am concerned with is what we can do if there is no power of acquisition. What can any member of the ordinary public do if he wants action taken? I want some assurance that the Bill will contain a mandatory instruction to the Government to clear up the mess they have made, if I may describe it in such simple language. It is most difficult to compel the Government to do something. If I want to try to compel them to do something I have to go to my right hon. and learned Friend opposite and get something which they call a fiat. I cannot sue the Crown and I cannot get a mandamus. There are all sorts of things I cannot do, and I really want to know in what circumstances this Bill is going to compel the Government to clear up the mess they have, quite rightly, made in all sorts of places, and particularly where people go to enjoy themselves.

The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) drew my attention to the fact that inadvertently I had made no acknowledgment of the parenthood of this Amendment. I gratefully do so now. On this question of restoration there will be further opportunities, of course, of discussion when we come to Clauses 28 and 47. Broadly speaking the position is this. Under Clause 47 the Commission does come into the picture at certain stages; but also under that Clause it is open to the Minister to agree to go beyond the ordinary ceiling of compensation in order that restoration may be effective. The second important point is that there is no power in the Bill under which the owner can institute proceedings before the Commission for restoration, but if the Minister proposes to acquire under the Clause which we are discussing, then the owner can oppose the proposals of the Minister before the Commission and counter them with an offer to undertake the restoration himself. The real point about the Clause, as it will stand as amended, is that there will be a fairly powerful weapon in the hands of the Government to enforce restoration where restoration is necessary and desirable. The hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir Herbert Williams) says, "Why cannot there be something in the Bill or an Amendment which would make it compulsory for the Government to clear up the mess it has made?" We shall come to this point presently on an Amendment to be moved by the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Colegate) on the question of total or partial rehabilitation. I can only say that there are many cases where it would be a physical impossibility for the Government to make a complete and total rehabilitation.

Is it in Order to discuss an Amendment which is to be moved by another hon. Member and to have a Government reply before there is a discussion?

It is not of course in Order to anticipate a discussion, but I gather that the right hon. Gentleman was referring to the matter in passing.

I have very seldom heard the complaint made that it was a disadvantage to know the answer to your Amendment before you had moved it. What I was trying to say was that there are good reasons for not putting a mandatory Clause in this or in any other Bill to compel the Government to make good in toto the damage which has been done, because, as I have already said, in many cases that would be a physical impossibility. The right way to deal with this problem is the way in which it is dealt with under the Compensation (Defence) Act.

The right hon. Gentleman has not met my point. Line 33 says, "If in the opinion of the Minister." If the Minister has not got an opinion nothing happens. I want to know what steps I or some other hon. Member can take if, for instance, we find a great mass of concrete across the field and we want to know who is going to move the obstruction. If this paragraph is taken out of this Clause there is nothing in the Bill, or in the Clause as it will be amended, to discover the point at all.

I would suggest to my hon. Friend that his best course in such a case would be to approach the Minister responsible for placing the blocks there, and to suggest to that Minister that he ought to bring pressure under this Clause to have some action taken about it.

6.45 p.m.

I would like to say a word about this rehabilitation. I have no intention whatever of putting anything in the way of the Chancellor and the Financial Secretary. I would however return once more to the fact that I am the conservator for more than 15 years of a very large area.

That area has been devastated almost beyond belief by Government action. The statutory body which controls it has no money and no implements and only three employees, all of whom are elderly. The position, therefore, is that we have to face for all time the spectacle of 6,500 acres of land disastrously damaged without any prospect or promise from the Government that something will be done to rehabilitate it. The report which we drew up on the subject and which was presented to at least one Minister—I believe the Minister of Town and Country Planning—says:

Does the hon. and gallant Member suggest that the Government should take 100,000 years to restore this?

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 43, leave out "total or partial."

This is an Amendment which I sincerely press upon the Government and I can see no reason why they should reject it, but I see very positive reasons why they should accept it. It is generally agreed that Clause 6 has given a great deal of satisfaction not merely to landowners and others, but to the amenity societies, who are very anxious to see rehabilitation. They are not merely concerned with the question of finance or compensation but they want to see amenities which have been destroyed or impaired, restored as far as possible. Somebody may say, why not keep in the words "total or partial." The use of these words really tends to obscure the issue. I quite believe that the Government intend to rehabilitate. It may be said that there are certain cases where total rehabilitation is not possible, but it would be found in any Act of Parliament of this kind that, when you use a phrase like "rehabilitation," it is subject to the law of impossibility and, therefore, no object is gained in putting in the words "total or partial." If you set out to rehabilitate a thing and it is physically impossible, no penalty arises because you cannot carry out your intention as far as you would like to do. Leaving out the words "total or partial" would remove a cause of difficulty or possibly even friction before the Commission, and if the words were removed all that would happen would be that, if the Minister said, in his opinion, it was desirable to rehabilitate the land, he would accordingly ask for powers to acquire. It will be found — and I hope that the Financial Secretary will agree with this point of view — that there is really nothing to be gained from the Government point of view by retaining these words. By leaving them out, you will give a certain amount of re-assurance and avoid actions, arguments and disputes and complaints that the Government have perhaps broken faith, and I think that the Committee will probably agree with me that everything is to be gained by leaving out these words.

There is nothing sinister in providing in this Clause that it may be desirable for the land to be dealt with in a particular manner either for its total or partial rehabilitation. There may be many cases where total rehabilitation is a sheer physical impossibility. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Rear-Admiral Beamish) said that it had taken 100,000 years to create the surface which had been eroded by tank action in his constituency. It is clear that no Government action can completely restore that surface to its pre-war state.

What my right hon. Friend has said as to what has happened is correct, but what I would like to say is that, with a good deal of trouble and levelling off and transportation of turf from other places, a very good job could be done, but it could not be restored to the condition in which it was before the damage was done.

I think that that really was what I was saying. It reminds me of the story of the American citizen who, when being shown one of the lawns of one of the Oxford Colleges before the war, kept as they were in those days, said that he would like to have a similar lawn at his own home in the United States. He asked how it was done, and the reply he received was, "Well, Sir, we have rolled it and we have mowed it for about a thousand years." It is obvious that you cannot restore, in the course of a few months or even in a few years, something that either nature or man has taken thousands of years to create. Let me give my hon. and gallant Friend an example. Take the example of a bombing range in a remote coastal area. The land may have been damaged to such an extent that total rehabilitation is out of the question. Little hills may have been blown away. The whole natural drainage system may have been affected. It is clear, especially where the whole of the surface has been eroded, as it has been in some areas, that total rehabilitation is either impossible, or may be an exceedingly slow job. There are cases, as my hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) will be aware, where forestry might be the best way, although a slow way, to rehabilitate the soil. You may start by placing a couple of inches of rather poor soil on the ground, and getting trees to grow, and as a result of many years of tree growth, you will get a restoration of humus to the land. If we were to limit ourselves to cases where the Minister thought that total rehabilitation was possible or desir- able, we would immediately get to a position where we might be challenged and where our powers under this Clause, which would be largely powers of enforcing other people to carry out restoration, would be seriously jeopardised. I hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend will not press his Amendment.

My right hon. Friend is arguing against the possibility of total rehabilitation and I am trying to help him by leaving "total" as well as "partial" out.

The result is that you are leaving in "rehabilitation" simpliciter, which to my mind conveys nothing but total rehabilitation.

No, it means that you rehabilitate it as far as possible. You are governed by the law of possibility.

No doubt I misinterpreted my hon. Friend's intention, but I am not convinced that I have misrepresented the legal effect of his Amendment. If you omit the words "total or partial" from the Clause, then the Clause reads that the Minister must be of opinion that

"it is desirable in the public interest that the land should be dealt with in a particular manner with a view to the rehabilitation thereof."

To limit the Minister's intention merely to go in for partial rehabilitation, such as a forestry scheme, might be held not to go as far as that Clause compels the Minister to go as it stands.

My right hon. Friend has referred, rightly, to planting as one of the best ways of rehabilitating soil, but may I raise one small point which is important to some people? I know two places, one on the Norfolk coast, where certain rare kinds of sea-birds used to breed. That place has become a bombing range and the birds have gone. They may come back; migrants come in Spring, and go out in the Autumn. It is very important that there should be planting there, in order to attract the birds back again. I hope that the Financial Secretary, in going so far as to suggest that planting of trees on the Downs may help to repair, in 1,000,000 years, all the damage and destruction of the soil, will now go a little further and also see to it that these interesting haunts of bird life are restored in value to naturalists by judicious planting.

If there is a difference between my hon. Friend and the Financial Secretary on this matter, it appears to be one that the learned Attorney-General can resolve. There is no difference of opinion; the question is how can that opinion best be expressed in the Bill. It looks awkward when you find in the Bill that the Government are to go in for some partial rehabilitation. I have looked up the definition of "rehabilitation" in Webster's Dictionary and I will read it. The word "rehabilitation" means:

Surely that is all we are asking for? A bombing range cannot be entirely put back into its previous state, yet it can be put on a proper basis. I think we are rather apt in Acts of Parliament to add adjectives unnecessarily. I am not myself fond of the word "rehabilitate"; I would rather have "restore," but if the Financial Secretary is wedded to that word I do not want to dispossess him of the role of Minister of Pensions who does very good work, and if he can do the same work with our land, we shall be grateful to him. But what does "total or partial" mean? We can never totally rehabilitate any land here, it is quite impossible. When you have had either German bombs or British bombs on it, the land will never be exactly the same. It will be sufficiently the same for our purposes, but that, surely, is best done by leaving the word "rehabilitation" without any qualification at all.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 43, after "and," insert:

"the Minister is satisfied after inquiry of the persons interested in the land that."

As I understand this paragraph, after it has been so amended, the Minister can exercise the powers of acquisition if, in his opinion, it is desirable in the public interest, and if, in his opinion, the land is only likely to be dealt with in that manner if it is acquired under the Act. With regard to this latter point, I think it is desirable that we should not leave it to some civil servant—and that is what it actually means when you say "in the opinion of the Minister"—to decide off-hand that the land is not likely to be rehabilitated unless it is acquired by the State. I think it is right that we should put the onus upon the Minister who is seeking to acquire, to satisfy himself by inquiry of the persons interested in the land that only if the land is acquired by the State will it be rehabilitated. If these words are not inserted, it seems to me the Minister is at liberty to ignore all the persons interested in the land and everyone else just the same, boldly and without any possibility of challenge. All he need say is, "In my opinion the land is only likely to be rehabilitated if it is acquired by the public." In my view that will not suffice, and I hope that the Attorney-General, who, apparently, is now in charge, will be able to say straight away that this Amendment, which does not alter the sense of the Bill, will be accepted by the Government.

It seems very desirable to have this in, because, as the Bill stands, the Minister may come to a conclusion without the owners or custodians knowing anything about it. This addition will not limit the power of the Minister. It will not put it in the hands of the persons concerned. It merely ensures that he must consider the matter in conjunction with, and after being informed of, the persons who know most about it. On those grounds I hope it will be accepted. It will give the persons concerned an opportunity to state their case.

I was hoping to satisfy my hon. Friends that the danger which they wish to guard against has already been provided for, but before I come to that, I think it is relevant to point out that this Amendment would create great difficulties. One of the troubles which it causes, and which confronts one in other parts of this Bill—and in many parts of many other Bills—is that the persons interested in land may be a very large number. Some of them may have a small interest but you may have—to take a simple case—a landlord and a lessee—that is, two. The lease may be a comparatively short lease, but the lessee will be interested in what happens during the remainder of his period; though the landlord may be the person most interested. You may have a landlord, lessee, and sub-lessee, and they may all be interested. You may have a mortgagee and he may have an interest, and one of the troubles is that under our land system you may get a host of people who come within the words "interested in the land."

This Amendment, as I see it, will impose a legal condition precedent, and if the Minister did not consult the persons interested, he would not be able to act. Not only might there be a lot of persons interested, but even if there were few or many, they might, for instance, be in Australia, and the Minister would not be able to proceed unless he consulted somebody who was a long way away. There might be difficulty in finding out where he was. For those reasons I think it would be difficult to work the matter in this form, but I quite appreciate it ought not to be necessary for all the wheels to go round for the land to be bought when, in fact, the person interested—and let us take the simplest case where there is only one person, the owner-occupier—is ready to do the work. I think that is provided for by Clause 10 (3). Let me say at the outset, that of course it is the Minister's intention to consult the owners and the people interested if available, and indeed it would be very difficult for him to make up his mind—or somebody on his behalf—that the total or partial rehabilitation thereof is only likely to be effective if it is acquired, without making inquiries to see what would happen if the powers in the Bill were not operative. So the Clause gives a very clear pointer to proper inquiries being made of those who are effectively interested in the land. There is a further safeguard in that under Clause 10 (3) the Commission may report that—

They, presumably, are safeguards more acceptable to my hon. Friends than the Minister or the civil servants. We are assuming a case where the Minister is seeking to exercise the power where the person interested is really willing to do effective rehabilitation himself. I say that if the Minister, in spite of that, seeks to exercise the power, under Clause 10 (3) the man can appear before the Commission, obviously having a locus standii as being the person interested and in a position to do the rehabilitation, and if there is a slip-up through inquiries not having been made, he can make those objections before the Commission. He can say, "The Minister ought not to have exercised the power here because I am quite willing to rehabilitate the land myself." For those reasons, because we think the position is safeguarded under Clause 10 (3), and because mandatory necessity of inquiry of person interested might involve great complexity, I would ask my hon. Friend not to press his Amendment.

I am sorry to persist in this matter. If there is any difficulty about the use of the phrase "persons interested in the land"—and I concede there well may be—I should be prepared to use the words "owner or occupier of the land." It does not seem to me in the least likely that the mortgagee of the land will be the sort of person who will undertake rehabilitation himself. What I want to ensure, if I can, is that the owner or occupier of the land affected shall have notice of the Minister's proposals at the earliest possible moment, for this reason. It is quite true, if in due course the Minister has made up his mind that no one else is likely to rehabilitate, that the owner or the occupier will have an opportunity of coming before the Commission, but then he comes before it saying "I am quite willing to do it myself" knowing that the matter only comes before the Commission because the Minister has expressed a contrary opinion or, indeed, if he has not expressed it, holds a contrary opinion. I think that all that circuity of action which will lead to the owner appearing before the Commission and saying "I shall restore the land myself" might be avoided if you put some condition precedent of this sort in the Bill. I have some recollection that we agreed in Committee on some recent Bill to the insertion of words very similar to these. I would like to ask my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General to reconsider the matter with a view to seeing if something can be inserted in the Bill to ensure that at the outset the owner and occupier may know, so that not only their time, but also the time of civil servants may not be taken up in pursuing fruitless activities.

I appreciate the way my hon. Friend puts it. I am quite unconvinced, however, that it would be a good thing to insert these words. Even if you could restrict it to the owner or occupier, they might be out of the country and you would have put an absolutely legal bar in the way of the Minister proceeding until he had made inquiries. I think the Clause gives a clear pointer that inquiries have to be made, and there is the safeguard if there is a slip-up. I never like to say that I will not reconsider anything, but I am quite sure that if I do so in this case I shall come to the conclusion which I have already arrived at.

7.15 p.m.

Surely there is no objection to putting in the words, "The Minister is satisfied after reasonable inquiry of the persons interested in the lands." My right hon. and learned Friend mentioned the possibility of people being abroad, but surely that would be met by the introduction of such words as "reasonable" or "practicable"?

I think the Attorney-General is rather over-stressing the possibility of absence or non-availability. If an inquiry is addressed to the person or body concerned, and proper steps are taken to ensure that it is delivered, there is nothing in the Amendment to say that a reply must be received, and if the person or body defaults then the Minister has fulfilled the provisions of the proposed words. There is an obvious advantage in people being able to state their views and make suggestions with the least possible delay.

I have given an answer. If you put in the words "reasonable inquiry," then you start an argument as to what is "reasonable inquiry." Any words of this kind would create difficulties, and would prevent the Minister from acting promptly.

I am not converted to the Attorney-General's point of view, but if he will give me the opportunity of trying to convert him to my point of view outside this House then I should be glad to withdraw the Amendment.

I do not think I could decline that invitation.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I am not proposing to call the next Amendment in the name of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Rye (Sir G. Courthope), unless I am pressed to do so.

We discussed a slight variation of this matter for 2½ hours, and I do not propose to call this Amendment as I have said unless pressed to do so.

I think this raises rather a different point, Major Milner. In the previous case we were dealing with land which the Government had increased in value; in this case we are concerned with land which will be decreased in value owing to the Government's activities. By this Amendment, we should be saving the spending of unnecessary money.

On the understanding that there will be only a short discussion, I will call the Amendment.

Could we have an explanation of what is in the Government's mind? It seems extraordinary that where land has been damaged, you should want to take in extra land.

We do not assume that this Sub-section is likely to be used very often. Generally speaking, where it is necessary to acquire an area of land for restoration and rehabilitation it will not be necessary to acquire other adjoining or neighbouring land. I instanced, not long ago, as an illustration, the sort of case where an area of land has been completely devastated by being used as a bombing range. That land might be part of a coastal area, and it might well be necessary, in order to acquire access to it for roads, or to round off a scheme of rehabilitation, such as a forestry scheme, to include other small areas of neighbouring or adjacent land. It is simply in order to safeguard the main purpose, which is the rehabilitation and restoration of the damaged land, that this Sub-section is put into the Bill. We do not know whether any cases will arise, but I have not the slightest doubt that they will be extremely rare, and that it would be a pity if a good scheme of rehabilitation was defeated merely because we had not taken power to acquire a piece of land which was necessary to the rehabilitation scheme. We are, however, prepared to adopt the words of the following Amendment by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb), which we adopted on a previous occasion, namely, to insert the words "contiguous or adjacent," for the words, "adjoining or neighbouring." [An HON. MEMBER: What about objections?"] Objections would go to the Commission, and the Commission's decision would be final and binding.

I do not want to embarrass my right hon. Friend, but I do not believe that this Sub-section can be meant to be used for the purpose of acquiring access. Surely the Government can take power under any Clause to acquire access. If that is the only ground on which this particular Clause can be visualised—

I did not suggest that that was the only ground. I put it forward as one of the possible grounds. You might have to construct a road at a place where there had been no possibility of having a road before. Considerable engineering works might be necessary, and for that purpose it might be necessary to purchase land in order to obtain access.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment made: In page 4, line 1, leave out "adjoining or neighbouring," and insert, "contiguous or adjacent."—[ Sir J. Lamb. ]

I beg to move, in page 4, line 4, leave out "utilised," and insert "rehabilitated."

This question of rehabilitation has already been fairly fully discussed. I feel, and I think a number of other Members do as well, that in this case, whatever the ownership of the land, the Government at the present time and in the future are likely to have the modern machinery and labour to do rehabilitation very much easier and quicker than any other owner, public or private. There is a certain amount of land which has to be rehabilitated so that it can be got back into proper shape for the future, and I hope the Government will be able to meet this Amendment, especially as I have sat through the whole of this Bill so far, and this is the first time that I have spoken.

As my hon. and gallant Friend realises, this is purely a drafting point. I think the word, "utilised," is right, on the lines which were explained by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. Rehabilitation suggests getting the land back into its former condition or, if that is impossible, then you plant trees and get the soil into proper condition. The purpose of buying adjoining land is expressed in the Bill. You may want it in order that the first-mentioned land might be properly utilised. You have, as it were, done the initial process of rehabilitation but it may be that for its proper utilisation in its rehabilitated condition you need neighbouring land. Therefore, I think the word, "utilised," as it appears in the Bill, rightly expresses our intention.

With great respect to the Attorney-General, I think it expresses exactly the opposite. The word "utilisation" implies making use of, not rehabilitating. Additional land might be utilised in a form which would amount to a change of user. The Clause says:

"… adjoining or neighbouring land … must be held with the first-mentioned land if the first-mentioned land is to be …"

what? Utilised for some quite different purpose? That is not the intention of the Clause.

An example was given which met with general approval in the Committee. You may have land which, prior to being used as a bombing range, was suitable for grazing. It might be now impossible to use it for grazing or to restore it, and, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price), the only way to get it back into useful productivity would be to plant it.

As one who has some local knowledge of the South Downs, I am sorry to say that my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General has been guilty of showing some ignorance on the subject. What has happened there is that the lower chalk has been brought to the surface so that it is impossible either to plant or cultivate it. The example which my right hon. and learned Friend has given is, therefore, not a very good one.

I did not say "the South Downs." I appreciate that the change there is such that you can neither graze nor plant.

Why does the Attorney-General want, at this stage, to bring in entirely different wording which facilitates and implies that there may be a complete change of user?

Because there may be, and if for that change you want adjoining land you ought to be able to have it.

7.30 p.m.

My right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary objects to the insertion of the word "rehabilitated" in place of the horrible word "utilised." If he will not have the word "rehabilitated," I beg him to have "used" and not "utilised." The word" utilised" was first heard of when the Socialist Government of ill renown brought in a Land Utilisation Bill. I am sure my right hon. Friend does not want to copy that unenviable example. Surely, this Clause is a rehabilitation provision. No damage can be done by accepting the Amendment moved by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Salisbury (Major Morrison), with a very appealing final word about his not having spoken before. I am afraid I am unable to make the same plea, but I put it to my right hon. Friend that if the Amendment is accepted my hon. and gallant Friend may never speak again. This is a small point, but it is by giving way on small points that the Government will make the passage of this Bill easier.

I am certainly prepared to give serious, active and prolonged consideration, between now and the Report stage, to the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) that we might substitute the word "used" for "utilised," but we cannot accept the change which would be brought about if the word "rehabilitated" were inserted. The purchase of a piece of neighbouring land may be necessary not only to the carrying out of the immediate restoration of the land for the purpose for which it is best adapted: it may also be necessary to the subsequent use of the land. We do not contemplate that in all cases it will be possible to restore land to the use to which it was put before the damage occurred. In quite a number of cases I am afraid there will have to be a change in the use of the land. It will be a matter for consideration, in conjunction with the best advisers we can obtain, what is the best and proper course to follow with regard to a particular piece of land. It is with regard to the future use of the land that this question of the purchase of additional areas must be considered. I hope my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Salisbury will perhaps move another Amendment one of these days, and that it will have better fortune.

A point of principle is beginning to emerge. It is not simply a question of drafting, a choice between "utilised," "used" and "rehabilitated. What seems to be emerging is that the Government appear to have power to acquire any war-damaged land with a view to the rehabilitation of it, and having rehabilitated it, they seek power to join with it any adjacent or contiguous land, so that they may have a nice saleable asset for a factory site or for some other purpose. I hope the Financial Secretary will go further than he has done and say that he will reconsider the whole thing before the Report stage.

I thank my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary for his good wishes for the future, and in view of his statement that he will give full consideration to this matter, I am prepared to ask for permission to withdraw the Amendment.

I do not think my hon. and gallant Friend ought to do that. The Financial Secretary has made the position much worse. We have been dealing with a Clause the whole object of which is the rehabilitation of some original site. It is only now, when we come to add some bits and pieces to facilitate the rounding off of the job, that the Bill goes back on the word which the Government have already selected as the one most suitable for their purpose and provides additionally that they can bring in an extra few yards of some other property not concerned in the original proposal. They are getting an entirely different power which enables them to change the use of the site which, in fact, it is only intended should be acquired for rehabilitation. If "rehabilitation" is good enough all through the provisions relating to the original site, surely it should remain in what is, after all, only a proviso to an additional Sub-section relating to some extraneous decision.

I think the Financial Secretary has sidetracked us by referring to the question of a bombing range. This provision applies not only to a bombing range, but just as well to a perfectly good site such as one that we know of within a very short distance of the House, where a house has been destroyed by a bomb and a static water tank erected on the site. There you have a Government war work and the land has been depreciated. The powers in this provision—I do not suggest the Government would use them in such a case—would leave the Government free to acquite that site, to rehabilitate it and to put up another building, but in order that they may put up some building they would like they have power to acquire neighbouring buildings as well. They might create a good Government block out of a comparatively small house which had been destroyed by a bomb and had had a static water tank put on the site. I have given an extreme example, but I want to get away from the one-track idea of a bombing range which the Financial Secretary has put into our minds. The powers which he is seeking are infinitely wider than any which the Government can contemplate using. I hope my right hon. Friend will reconsider the Clause generally and not only from the very modest point of view which he has suggested.

I quite see the force of my right hon. Friend's argument, but I see also the danger. If the emphasis is to be on doing everything possible to put the land back to its original purpose, and only in a few cases to use it for some other purpose, is there not a danger that we shall lose sight of the main objective, which is rehabilitation? We ought to have an assurance that everything possible will be done to rehabilitate the land and that there will not be an attempt to ride off on the word "utilised." I think the intention is to rehabilitate if that is possible, and if it can be done there ought to be no loophole for doing anything else.

I want to make it clear to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chichester (Lieut. - Commander Joynson-Hicks) that there is no conceivable question of house property being purchased under this provision.

May I make a correction and say an office block instead of a house?

I cannot see any possibility of any building as such being purchased under this Clause.

In order that there may be a purchase under this Clause, the Minister has got to be of the opinion—and got to be rightly of the opinion, because the Commission has the decision in the matter—that

"it is desirable in the public interest that the land should be dealt with in a particular manner with a view to the total or partial rehabilitation thereof and the land is only likely to be dealt with in that manner if it is acquired by virtue of this Part of this Act."

As regards a building site, an office site, and so on, in Westminster or any other town or city, it is clear that the second part of that provision could never be fulfilled. The Minister could never convince the Commission that that site was only likely to be built upon or dealt with in that manner if it was acquired under the compulsory powers. This is a case of land which has been so damaged that its restoration is in many cases an uneconomic proposition and in other cases would not be undertaken by its owner, the owner preferring to take the compensation under the Compensation (Defence) Act and not spend the money upon the restoration of the land. As regards the merits of the Amendment, I have already promised to consider the substitution of the word "used" for the word "utilised" in the proviso. We might consider the alternative of using the words "dealt with," so that the provision would read:

"If the first mentioned land is to be properly dealt with."

After all, the acquiring Sub-section (1 b ) makes it a condition that it should be desirable in the public interest that the land should be dealt with in a particular manner. I cannot see the slightest objection to considering, between now and the Report stage, the insertion of the words "dealt with." What I am clear about is that the word "rehabilitated" by itself would be unduly narrow.

May we have a directive from the Chair as to whether it would be possible to accept the altered wording now, as this would save trouble?

I am not sure what are the altered words. Have they been proposed?

Further to that point of Order, Mr. Williams. I am quite ready, if the Committee decides to omit the word "utilised," to move immediately that the words "dealt with" be inserted.

Question, "That the word 'utilised' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Question, "That the word 'rehabilitated' be there inserted," put, and negatived.

I beg to move, "That the words 'dealt with' be there inserted."

Question put, and agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 4, leave out lines 5 to 9.—[ Mr. Peake. ]

I suggest that the next Amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin), in page 4, line 9, and the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling), in page 4, line 9, be discussed together.

7.45 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 4, line 9, at end, add:

"(3) In the case of common lands and public open spaces it shall be the duty of the Minister to restore the land or an equivalent area to a condition that will render it usable by those having a right of access thereto prior to acquisition."

Some of the land which we have just considered will undoubtedly have been common land or public open spaces before it was requisitioned. We had a great deal of discussion on the Second Reading and in the earlier part of the Committee stage on the desirability of maintaining common land and open spaces and the importance of not diminishing the total amount available for the public, and I do not think it is necessary to argue that case further. The purpose of the Amendment is to secure that, where the Government find it necessary—and no one quarrels with such a possibility—to use an open space or common land, there should be substituted an equivalent area in such a condition as will render it usable by those who have a right of access to the common land or those who have been in the habit of enjoying the open space. In other words, either the Government will have to reinstate the common land or open space for the enjoyment of the public or provide an equivalent amount of land so situated as to be capable of being used by the same people. The point is quite simple and I think it is non-controversial, because the whole purpose of the Measure is stated to be the public interest, and it is surely in the public interest that there should not be a reduction in common land or open spaces. I hope the Government will indicate that they accept the principle of the Amendment.

I should like to be associated with the Amendment. It is most important from the point of view of townspeople that there should be no curtailment of the public spaces which they enjoy. These public spaces are often not only public parks but private parks to which the public have access. I should like to receive some assurance that the access to private parks enjoyed by the public will not be curtailed and that any war works which have been erected will be removed or, if that cannot be done, that there should be some recognition of the right of the public to have another space instead.

While fully sympathising with the sentiment behind the Amendment, that where common land and open spaces are taken in this way other spaces should be made available, I feel that there is this point to be considered. Common lands may be in some remote region where there may be grazing rights, and it should be possible to bring about an arrangement with the commoners to buy them out. It sometimes happens if we want to use common lands for other purposes—for any public development scheme or for afforestation—that it is difficult to buy the commoners out. The Amendment is rather narrow in that it does not allow for cases of that kind. I fully sympathise with the aim of the Amendment, but that point should be borne in mind.

I should like to add a word in support of the Amendment, because I find it very difficult even now to know where to look in the Bill to be able to reassure those who are directly interested in commons and have the use and enjoyment of common rights that they will recover the use and enjoyment of commons which have been for all practical purposes completely destroyed. We have any number in West Sussex which have been so churned up by tanks and heavy vehicles as to be very largely impassable. How they are to be restored locally we do not know. It can only really be done by centralised, Government-run organisations. They have the equipment. We have not. I am strongly in support of the Amendment because it seeks for a definite statement as to the Government's proposals for the physical restoration of these common lands.

During the invasion period, the beaches of certain towns on the South coast were used for the building of the Mulberry Harbour. The amount of reinforced concrete that had to be put on some of them to carry these huge craft was enormous, and the cost of restoring the beaches to their original condition will be very many times the value of the land. I should like the point to be clarified.

I should certainly like to hear what the Minister has to tell us about dealing with common land and public open spaces which have been damaged. The point that interests me in particular is the words "or an equivalent area." Whatever may be the case in many other districts—in the North, the West and the Midlands—where it may be impossible to acquire equivalent areas to replace land occupied or seriously damaged by war works, I want my right hon. Friend to understand clearly that in the area with which I am concerned there is ample equivalent land at a very low price, and areas can be obtained quite easily to make up for the damage and the irrecoverable loss of such land as has been taken over for permanent works belonging to the Government.

As I understand your Ruling, Mr. Williams, it was that this and the following Amendment should be discussed together, but neither my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) nor any of his hon. Friends whose names appear on the Paper, are in their places and we have had no discussion on the question which their Amendment raises, namely, whether the Clause should apply to commons at all. That is an important and a very basic question.

I have now been given to understand that the second Amendment will not be moved and the hon. Members who put it down do not necessarily want to discuss it.

I wanted to hear the views of the Committee on whether or not commons should come within the purview of the Clause, but I understand that no one is here to move to leave them out, and that the discussion will not arise. I have explained that the Clause is aimed entirely at achieving restoration, either by purchase of the damaged area or by using the power of purchase as a spur to the owners to come forward with schemes of restoration and rehabilitation. There is, of course, a wide variety of commons. There are commons to which the public have access and others to which they do not have access. I take it that my hon. Friend has in mind commons to which the public have access. There are also commons which have conservators or a lord of the manor who takes a keen interest in their condition and well-being. There are others which are completely neglected and appear to be everybody's business, and therefore nobody's business. We all desire to see the same thing achieved, and that is as large a measure of rehabilitation and restoration as is possible. At the same time those who have some practical experience of this question must realise that a good deal of the work of rehabilitation will have to be left to natural causes. Time, rain and sun will have a greater effect in restoring some of these damaged commons to their original condition than will misguided attempts at artifical processes of regeneration.

The Amendment proposes that it shall be the duty of the Minister to restore the land. The whole purpose of the Clause is to enable rehabilitation and restoration to take place—in fact that is the only ground upon which purchase under the Clause can occur. If I read the Amendment correctly, it can only apply to cases where purchase by the Minister takes place. It is not simply a general direction to the Minister to take occupied commons and restore them. It applies only in a case where purchase occurs under the Clause. In order that purchase may take place under the Clause there would have to be a purpose on the part of the Minister to restore, and in fact that would be the whole foundation of the compulsory purchase. I hope that the compulsory purchase of a common under this Clause will very rarely, if ever, occur. There are other Clauses, to which I drew attention earlier, which enable restoration to take place without requisition.

8.0 p.m.

I would in particular draw my hon. Friend's attention to Clause 28. The opening words are: ceiling of compensation payable to the lord of the manor or the conservators of the common would be a low one under the Compensation (Defence) Act. It would probably be insufficient for the purpose of proper restoration. Clause 47 is an important Clause and enables the Minister, where he is satisfied by undertakings that restoration and rehabilitation will be undertaken by the owner, who in the case of a common will be the conservators or the lord of the manor, to pay the full cost of restoration. It is to these two Clauses that we must mainly look for the carrying out of the effective restoration of our commons. Clause 6 can only be used, and effectively used, in the case of commons, as a spur to conservators of commons to carry out their duties and to prepare schemes of rehabilitation which will rank for grant under Clause 47.

I do not think my right hon. Friend is really directing his mind to the real problem, such as that which arises in, for instance, the case where common land or even open space has been requisitioned by the Air Ministry for the purpose of an airfield. The land is heavily concreted, and I would like to know what is to happen to the land. The Government may clear it, but it may be too extensive to restore to its original condition, or it may not be practicable to do it. The purpose of the Amendment is, in a case where it is far too costly to do anything with the land, to ensure that the equivalent of that land shall be provided. My right hon. Friend has not applied himself to such a case.

I must confess that I seem to have slightly misconstrued the purpose of the Amendment, because the Clause deals only with the acquisition of land by the Minister. I am pointing out that I do not think any case would be likely to occur of a common being acquired by the Minister under this Clause. Therefore, the Clause is never likely to bite upon common land. The only way it may ever be used, as far as I can see, against common land is as a threat to the conservators of a common to induce them to undertake restoration at the expense of the Government, the money being provided under Clause 47.

Under Clause 6 (1, a ), where the cost is too heavy to reinstate the land, the Government will acquire it.

I am afraid that my hon. Friend has not followed the matter closely. That paragraph has gone out of the Bill, and I think I am right in thinking that the Amendment was put down when it still stood part of the Bill. Now that that paragraph has gone out of the Bill, there is little point left in the Amendment, because the only power of acquisition left under Clause 6 is the case where, in the opinion of the Minister, it is desirable to purchase land in order to enable restoration and rehabilitation to be undertaken. In the case of common land, that power is never likely to be exercised. There would be a good deal to be said for excluding common lands altogether from Clause 6. The only reason for keeping common lands within the purview of the Clause would be to use it as a threat to the conservators to compel them to carry out work of restoration and rehabilitation, which they can do under the Bill, at the expense of the Government.

My right hon. Friend was right to remind me that Clause 6 (1, a ) had been deleted. I had forgotten it. I would, however, still like to know what is to happen to common lands which have been used by the Air Ministry as an airfield and which it is not proposed to acquire. It will be just returned to the owner and it may be too late to restore it. What is the position of that land?

It is impossible for me to lay down what will happen in any individual cases. An infinite variety of cases will arise in practice. There may be in some cases concrete buildings of such a horrible, permanent character that nothing can remove them except a tremendous amount of expense. There may be other cases where restoration will be a comparatively simple process. I have described the various methods open to those interested in commons to procure their restoration under the Bill. There are the powers under Clause 28, which the Minister may use to carry out the restoration himself. There is the power under Clause 47 of getting the full cost of restoration from the Government, the conservators carrying out the work themselves.

Finally, there is the pressure which the Government can, under Clause 6, put upon conservators of commons to carry out the necessary restoration. Whether that power should or should not be in- cluded in the Bill is, in my opinion, a very open question. I cannot imagine the case of direct purchase of a common taking place under Clause 6 as it now reads without Sub-section (1, a ). I think it is a question whether my hon. Friend would like the Government, in the last resort, to have this power in their hands with a view to stimulating the restoration of commons where the conservators, or lord of the manor, or whoever may be responsible, are not doing their duty and are not fulfilling their functions in making the commons as nice a place as they can for the enjoyment of the public.

In the last resort, there may be cases where it is too late to do anything with a common and where no amount of expenditure can restore it to its original condition. The point I would like my right hon. Friend to direct his mind to is what is to happen in such a case? The point of the Amendment is that, in such a case, an equivalent amount of land should be provided by the Government. I would like my right hon. Friend to consider that. There will be some open spaces which cannot in practice be restored, and unless an equivalent amount of land is provided, the public will have lost them for all time.

If my hon. Friend is thinking of cases which arise under Clause 5, where there are valuable Government war works such as a concrete runway on the land, such cases will come to be discussed later on under Clause 4. My right hon. Friend is giving very serious consideration to what was said on that question the other day. What this Clause deals with is the acquisition of damaged land for purposes of restoration. As I understand the explanation of my hon. Friend's Amendment, he asks that where a concrete slab of some sort has been put down an equal area shall be added to the common. But the words of his Amendment are:

"It shall be the duty of the Minister to restore the land or an equivalent area to a condition that will render it usable by those having a right of access thereto."

The public would have a right of access and they would also have the use of a very interesting concrete slab. It would not be quite the same thing as the original common. I can only say that everything possible will be done—and considerable powers are accordingly included in the Bill—to enable restoration to take place; but there may be, and in fact there are bound to be, cases where physical restoration may be too expensive to carry out and where, therefore, it will have to be left to nature to perform the task of restoring the common. It may take a long time. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Rear-Admiral Beamish) said it had taken 100,000 years to create the fertility of the South Downs. My experience is that it will not take as long as that for concrete slabs to disappear. It will be a few years, but nothing like as long as the period stated by my hon. and gallant Friend.

I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has even yet applied himself to the problem which has been raised. It is this: In some of our built-up and industrial areas, open spaces, which are the only recreational places available for the local people, have been taken away and permanent buildings have been placed upon them. The future use of such land as common land is therefore impossible. What we ask here is that where the Government have made it impossible for the land to be used as common land the inhabitants of that area shall not be robbed of their rights to use such common land and open spaces in their area and it should, therefore, be the duty of the Government to give them an equivalent area for them to enjoy in the same way as they enjoyed the land which was taken for war purposes.

I am beginning to have grave doubts as to whether we are not straying from the Clause altogether. The point which the hon. Gentleman has just raised, and indeed a good deal of the rest of the Debate, has really gone back to Clause 4. I would, if possible, like some help from the Government in this connection, as it seems that we are getting on to a very wide Debate on the restoration of property.

8.15 p.m.

May I see whether I can make any contribution? As I understand, we are considering quite a narrow question—the extent to which the Government should be enabled to acquire land for the purpose of restoring it and how far any power given by this Clause to the Government for that purpose should be available in relation to commons. My right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary has made it perfectly clear that in his view, which is the view of the Government, it is rather an open question whether, on the whole, it would be right to leave this Clause in its present form—quite general, and applicable to all classes of land — or whether in order to remove any apprehension as to possible misuse of the power in relation to commons it might be better to remove common land from the scope of the Clause. My own view is that it would be a pity, at any rate at this stage, to take common land out of the scope of the Clause, because undoubtedly the existence in the Government of a power to take common land for the purpose of restoring it might, in a few cases, enable the Government to put pressure on the owners to restore it and to add to the amount of compensation otherwise available for the purpose of restoration by the owners. That is my advice, but I will not press it.

If I have made clear my position in regard to this Clause may I say a few words about commons in general? [ Interruption. ] Surely, I may say a word—

It puts me in rather a difficult position. If one right hon. Gentleman is allowed to say a few words on the general position, I cannot possibly refuse other Members the right to do the same.

I think I used words which are liable to misinterpretation. I was not going to deal with commons but to refer to the decision which was taken to defer the consideration of commons in general until later. I was only going to say that the matters which have been raised by the hon. Gentleman opposite with regard to commons involve a great many difficult questions—some of them, I think, as you rather indicated, Mr. Williams, outside the scope of this Clause—and perhaps outside the scope of the Bill altogether; but I do not think I could profitably offer a contribution to the general question of commons until we come back to it on Clause 4. I shall then be able to deal with it in all its aspects, to take full account of what has been said in the Debate and see how far it is possible for us to give the assurances as to the desire of the Government to see that commons are restored. I hope I have not transgressed.

May I ask a specific question? I have no desire to embarrass the right hon. Gentleman or to press this if he desires to deal with it at a later stage. Will he be in a position to inform the Committee what the Government propose to do about common land or open spaces which have been irretrievably lost to the public?

I will tell the Committee what view the Government take on that question in all its aspects, including the question of substituted land which has been raised before.

It is unfortunate that we have not before us the Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) to exclude common lands from the Clause, because nobody in the Committee wants to see common lands—

We have not yet come to that Amendment. I find myself rather in a difficulty on the Amendment which is before us. I have been experiencing increasing doubt whether it is in Order at all, at this stage of the Bill. It is within my power to say that I now find the Amendment is not in Order, but I do not want to have to do so. I suggest that we might now end the discussion, which is getting so wide as to endanger the position of the Debate on Clause 4.

Would it assist you, Mr. Williams, if I sought the leave of the Committee to withdraw the Amendment?

I heard you say, at the beginning, Mr. Williams, that we were to discuss this Amendment, and the one in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) at the same time. [An HON. MEMBER: "It was not moved."] It is impossible for two Amendments to be before the Committee at the same time, so that interruption has not a great deal of sense in it. One Amendment has been moved, and it may or may not be that my hon. Friend will move his Amendment. We have discussed the question whether commons should be in Clause 6, but I cannot think that anything I can say on the question now will affect anything we might have to say on Clause 4. I do not quite understand the implications of your Ruling.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in page 4, line 9, at end, add:

"(3) This Section shall not apply to any common or open space as defined in Section (Common lands, etc.) of this Act."

We have had a certain amount of discussion on the Amendment which has just been withdrawn. I now ask the Chancellor to consider whether we could not take commons out of Clause 6 at this stage. I hope when we get to Clause 47 he will put in some special powers to enable commons to be rehabilitated specifically under its provisions. No one wants to see common lands acquired by the Government and common rights extinguished under the provisions of Clause 6. The only justification, as we have heard from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, is that this is to be used as a species of blackmail against conservators. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I beg pardon. I withdraw "blackmail" and say a species of force.

A kind of sanction against the conservators. In most Clauses of the Bill there is some threat against someone. I do not think it is right that those who look after the commons should be threatened in this way. Later, after we have discussed Clause 47, if we come to the conclusion that commons should be put into the Bill, we can do so. At present, the sense of the argument that has been addressed to the Committee by all who have spoken is that Clause 6 should not apply to commons.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in page 4, line 9, at end, add:

There may be one criticism of this suggestion, that there is no sanction if Ministers will not comply with it. I could put in a sanction, if the Solicitor-General wants one, which is that the power of acquisition should cease at the end of four years. If it is not done by that time, the land reverts to the owner. I have deliberately not done that, but have put the Amendment in a form which may be criticised as being a pious direction to a Government Department that if they do acquire land for rehabilitation they will have the duty of doing that rehabilitation as soon as may be, and in any case within four years of the end of the war period. This is an eminently reasonable Amendment, and I hope that if the Government will not accept the particular words they will accept the spirit of it.

The Government are certainly in sympathy with the broad idea behind what my hon. and gallant Friend has said. If Clause 6 (1, a ) were still in the Bill I think he would agree with me that there would be perhaps even a necessity for his Amendment; but he realises, as is indeed the fact, that now that the particular paragraph is out, acquisition under paragraph ( b ) can only be made with rehabilitation in view. If my hon. Friend will look at paragraph ( b ), he will see that there may be no question on that point. Therefore, the duty which he is anxious to impose on the Government of keeping rehabilitation in mind would ipso facto be the effect of their acting under Clause 6 (1, b ). Therefore I can assure him that the duty is there.

8.30 p.m.

The outstanding point between us is the period of limitation. There again, I sympathise with what inspires my hon. and gallant Friend. I give him the undertaking that the rehabilitation, or the dealing with land with a view to rehabilitation, to use absolutely correct language, will be undertaken as soon as is reasonably possible. I ask him to be content with an undertaking on this point. I realise as much as my hon. and gallant Friend the limitations of that. I can only commit this Government, and it has that disadvantage. But I know that no one is more anxious than he is about the other problems with which the Government have to deal, and for which they have to mobilise the labour force. I know the question of housing occupies a great deal of his thoughts and of his utterances in the House. There are a great many other matters for which the labour force will have to be mobilised, and it is impossible to set a limit or to say where this work will come in our table of priorities. I ask my hon. and gallant Friend and the Committee to agree that in the present difficult circumstances this is a suitable case for them to be satisfied with an undertaking to press on with the work as soon as is reasonably possible. I hope he will accept the thoroughly friendly and sympathetic spirit of this answer, and be content with an undertaking in this case.

I wish to ask my hon. and learned Friend how what he has said fits in with the words in Clause 10, Sub-section (3). There the Commission may direct that the land in question shall go to a specified person if he undertakes

"in writing to the Minister within a time so specified that he will take steps so specified within times so specified."

Seemingly the Commission are to lay down that a private individual will have to do it in a certain time, but the Minister's contention is that it would not be possible for the Government to give such an undertaking, or be bound by any time limit. Surely the Government are in a better position to do this work than is a private owner, yet they are to have no time limit whatever placed on them.

I would like to support what my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) has said. I, too, would suggest to the Solicitor-General that the words of Clause 6 (1, b ) do not impose any duty at all on any Minister. The number of Ministers who have power of acquisition under this Bill is very great indeed. Although they may have to satisfy the Commission of their object when they acquire this land, after it is acquired there may be a change of Government, or of the Minister, and different things will have different priorities, and we may well find this land which was acquired "to be dealt with in a particular manner," left in a state of complete neglect. I appreciate the Government may be in a difficulty about deciding on a fixed period, but I should like some provision in this Measure to say that after the Minister has acquired land it shall be his duty to see that it is restored or rehabilitated. That provision is not contained in the Bill so far. If the restoration of commons is not effected within a specified period the Minister could be brought to book in the House, but if it is left entirely vague, when is the matter to be brought to our notice, when can we do anything about it? I should have thought that, if necessary, the period suggested in the Amendment could be extended. Let us have a statement of the duty and let us have some period, if necessary a lengthy one, in which that duty should be fulfilled.

To deal first with the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) on Clause 10 (3), there are two answers to his difficulty. The first is that that Sub-section is dealing with one specific example. In that case it may well be possible for the rehabilitation to take place, and it occurs as a result of an answer made by the owner to the question of acquisition. Therefore, he only makes an answer when he knows from the knowledge of his own land that it can be done. I do not think it is inconsistent for the Government to say that the owner is to be given the opportunity of saying: "I will deal with a specific case under Clause 10 (3)," and to say also, "Although that may well be so, we cannot undertake to deal with every case in the difficulties of the post-war period and the demands on the labour force of the country."

My hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) questioned my interpretation of Clause 6 (1, b ). I referred to it and I thought there was general assent. In any case I have listened to what my hon. Friend has said, but it does not change my view at all, because the pre-requisite of Clause 6 (1, b ) is that, in the opinion of the Minister,

My argument would not gain by repetition, but I think it commands general assent in the Committee, that on a point like this, to tie the Government to a period of time, when the country has so many demands on its labour force, and there will be such difficulty in making up a table of priorities, would not be reasonable or necessary in the circumstances. Therefore, I repeat that my attitude is most sympathetic to what is animating my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Kensington (Captain Duncan), but I ask that in these circumstances this Amendment should not be pressed.

I quite appreciate that the Minister would have to acquire the land with a view to rehabilitation, but supposing there is a change of Ministers, his successor may take a different view altogether, and not proceed to carry out the rehabilitation. We ought to have something in the Bill to guarantee that the view of the Minister who acquires the land is implemented. I quite appreciate what my hon. and learned Friend said about the great difficulty of imposing any short time-limit, but we might at least have some time-limit, if a fairly long one, to ensure that the rehabilitation is carried out at some time. If the words which appear in this Amendment, "as soon as may be," were included, and if they mean anything—I am not quite certain that they do mean anything at all—they would mean that the Minister must carry out the work as soon as possible. That would be a valuable addition to the Clause, ensuring that there is some definite obligation upon the Government to rehabilitate within a reasonable time.

I think the Solicitor-General has made a convincing case on the question of a period of time: this Amendment would impose what might be a complete impossibility. But his argument does not carry conviction to me on the other point, about the onus on the Minister to discharge the task for which the land is requisitioned. The intention may be there, but I am entirely unconvinced by the argument that it is not desirable to state it definitely in the Bill. It might well be covered by the elastic phrase "as soon as may be," and left at that, providing that there is a specific duty on the Minister under this Bill which will not be discharged until, whatever the period is, that rehabilitation has been undertaken. I hope that somewhere in this Measure the Minister will be able to take on that specified liability. Mere pious expressions of opinion may, and we believe will, bind him and the present Government; but none of us knows how long this Government will last—probably a great deal less than the four years provided for in the Bill. Therefore, I hope that the spirit of this Amendment will be incorporated in the Bill, so that it may be definitely provided that there is a re- sponsibility on the Minister which will not be discharged until he has carried out the provisions with regard to rehabilitation.

I agree with what my hon. and gallant Friend has just said. I apologise for not having been here at the beginning of the discussion on this Clause. We, on this side of the House, have to try to put into the Bill, all the way through, right up to the new Clauses at the end, continual insistence upon everybody upon whom there is an obligation to carry out this legislation doing his job. I dare say a good many Members will remember the state of the rural areas five to 10 years after the last war. They will remember the arable acres with which this country ended the last war, and the thousands of acres which, within 10 years, were growing neither crops nor grass. That was due to a change of heart on the part of the country, and on the part of successive Governments. Merely to express a pious intention of doing the job cannot but be very unsatisfactory.

8.45 p.m.

It seems to me that at some point in this Bill, if not here, the Government must tie themselves, just as they are tying public or private owners, to some definite responsibility to put back the land which they have in their control. It may be that it will be better done in a different place in the Bill—I hope that the Government will look with favour on a new Clause which stands in my name—but wherever they do it, I believe that this is one of the most important, if not the most important, of the Amendments which are required. So far as I understand the Bill, there will be practically no method, except by Members of Parliament pressing the Government in questions, of enforcing the decisions which are implied in this Bill. I hope most sincerely that the Government will give some indication that at some point in the Bill they will accept the principle of this Amendment.

My hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General will remember the acres of damaged land after the last war, which took years to restore. In this war the acreage is far larger, and the damage far greater, and the necessity for restoration is far greater. If there is no absolutely clear duty laid down in the Bill, it seems to me, although I naturally accept my hon. and learned Friend's undertaking, that only this Government are bound, and they may last for only a few months. This does not really bind future Governments or civil servants, who have broadly to carry out the work. I want some definite obligation laid down in the Bill—although I agree that the time limit is probably inappropriate—so that where the Government acquire land for purposes of rehabilitation they shall be clearly ordered in the Bill to carry out that rehabilitation. The private owner is made to do it, and it seems only fair and in the interest of the country as a whole that this should be enforced upon private owners, the Government and local authorities alike. While I accept the undertaking as far as this Government are concerned, I hope they will see whether some form of words can be provided laying down some definite obligation.

Before we part with this Amendment I think we ought to hear whether the Government are prepared at some stage of the Bill to accept an obligation to rehabilitate. The Solicitor-General has dealt with the difficulties of imposing a definite time limit and so on, but not with the question of imposing an obligation.

Perhaps I might say a word on that. As my hon. and gallant Friend said, his Amendment did not contain a sanction, and, indeed, it is very difficult in these matters to impose sanctions. Nobody suggests that we should make it a criminal offence, but the use of a possible sanction would not, I think, be very practicable, and I would like to make a suggestion to the Committee. Everybody agrees with the importance of this work being done as soon as possible and this Sub-section does impose a duty, and it is a duty about which Parliament can call the Minister to account. There may be many cases where it would be quite unreasonable to wait for the four years suggested in the Amendment or for a longer period. There may be cases where the work should be done in much shorter time.

What I suggest to the Committee is that if any hon. Member has cases brought to his attention where land has been acquired under these powers and nothing has been done, that at once gives him the right to challenge the Minister. He could say: "You bought this land with a view to rehabilitation. Your only right in coming forward to exercise this power was that you had come to the conclusion that, in the public interest, it ought to be rehabilitated, and it is the property of the Crown simply because that opinion was formed and the power exercised in order that that purpose should be fulfilled. Well, it has not been fulfilled. Why has it not been done?" There may be an answer about the difficulty of getting labour, but the Minister has to answer. It seems to me that it would bind successive Governments, in this sense, that an hon. Member might say to the Government of the day: "It may have been your predecessors who bought the land, but the only justification was that the ground should be rehabilitated, and you are bound to fulfil the purpose which alone justifies the property coming into the hands of the Crown."

Therefore, I suggest that there is a duty imposed by this Clause—a duty on which the Minister could be held responsible to Parliament. In some cases, it would be quite unreasonable if not done in six months. There may be other cases which would involve a lot of work, and, again, others where it would be reasonable to put it aside in order that other and more urgent things could be done. I suggest that the Clause as drafted does impose a duty on Parliament, and that it is impracticable to devise any form of words that would do otherwise than leave it in that constitutional position.

I should be reluctant to press the matter if I did not think it was one of considerable importance. If, in fact, the duty exists in Subsection (1 b ), it is only an implied duty and not expressly stated. If the duty is implied there, what is the objection to stating it expressly in another part of the Bill? We are not trying to put anything in the Bill which does not exist, and I really fail to see why the Minister should not meet our desires by expressly putting something into the Bill which he has said is already implied. Could my right hon. and learned Friend not go one step further and say that it will be put in expressly? I am concerned with the possible argument that a Minister in another Government may say: "It is quite true that my predecessor bought it for the purpose of rehabilitation, but he belonged to another Government. We have changed that Government, circumstances have altered and we intend to use it for something else." That is why I should like to see it stated expressly that the duty is there to be carried out.

Amendment negatived.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7.—(Easements and other rights.)

I beg to move, in page 4, line 18, leave out from "land," to end of Clause.

This Amendment negatives the power given under paragraph ( b ) to cancel restrictive covenants existing over adjoining land where there are any war works on the land acquired. Paragraph ( a ), which we are not seeking to amend, gives power to impose restrictions on land adjoining land which has been acquired specifically for the defence of the realm. That is quite reasonable, but this paragraph ( b ) gives much wider, vaguer and less justifiable powers. It seems quite unreasonable that just because there are war works—a vague term—the Government should be able to cancel restrictive covenants which already exist over neighbouring land. The Committee will be aware that there is a great area of land which has been acquired by the National Trust—land, very often, of great natural beauty—which has been subjected to restrictive covenants, and that, over other large areas, the owners have entered into restrictive covenants in order to protect the amenities of the district. It appears from paragraph ( b ) that the Minister might override all such covenants, and I suggest that that is dangerous to the public interest. The payment of compensation would be no palliative, and I ask the Government to reconsider the sweeping terms of paragraph ( b ).

I think—at least, I hope—I can convince my hon. Friend and the Committee that this is an essential power. Let me give this one example. A building, a factory, may have been put up on land which is subject to a restrictive covenant against building In that case, you must be in a position to discharge the restrictive covenant; but there may well be other cases. Of course, if the person who benefits by the restrictive covenant thinks that an unreasonable use is being made of the power, there is a right of appeal to the Commission. If any Government were not sufficiently sympathetic—I would not admit that that would happen to the kind of interests which my hon. Friend has in mind, as I am sure he would agree that all Departments of Government have always shown not only appreciation of, but sympathetic interest in, the work of the National Trust—there is a right of the objector going to the Commission.

The fact of the matter is that, in the conditions of the war, things have been done which may be in conflict with restrictive covenants, and I have given one of the most obvious examples. Therefore, there must be this power. It is worth pointing out that there is a right, under the Law of Property Act, for a private individual to apply for a restrictive covenant should he desire. It is rather a new situation. It may arise quite irrespective of the type of war activity which we are considering here. This Clause is, in our opinion, necessary for the reasons I have indicated, because if any action is unreasonable, there is the right of appeal to the Commission. This is a very good example of what I have referred to before, the Government appreciating that in this Bill it is necessary for the Government to take powers to deal with a vast variety of cases and see that terms are given which enable them, if a Government Department is unreasonable, to safeguard and check any such action. In short, if a member of the public or one of the amenity societies feels that something unreasonable is being done, the matter can be considerd by an independent body.

Amendment negatived.

9.0 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 4, line 29, at end, insert:

(2) Where a Minister would have had power to acquire any land under paragraph ( b ) of Sub-section (1) of Section five of this Act if the owner thereof had had no interest or only a limited interest therein, the Minister shall have the like power to acquire any easement over or right restrictive of the user of any other land, being an easement or right which in his opinion is essential to the full enjoyment of the first mentioned land, as he would have had under this section if he had had power as aforesaid to acquire the first mentioned land, and, on the transfer by the Minister of the easement or right acquired to any person having an interest in that land, the like consequences shall ensue as would have ensued if it had been conveyed to him direct by the persons from whom it was acquired by the Minister.

This somewhat long Amendment is necessary, technically, to deal with a situation which may arise. I think if I give a concrete example its purpose will be clear to the Committee. If a water undertaker had built a pumping station at the request of the Minister of Health, and had that pumping station connected with a water supply by a pipe line, which went through an easement in someone else's land, and if the water undertaker did not own the land on which the pumping station was situated, then that could be acquired under Section (5, 1) and the easement could be acquired. If, however, the undertaker already owned the land on which the pumping station was situated, but still required the easement, a difficulty arises as hon. Members will see, by reason of the form of words of Sub-section (1) of this Clause, namely:

"Where a Minister has acquired or had power to acquire any land by virtue of this part of the Act."

That would not apply to a position where the water undertaker already owned the land. Therefore, to put the matter right, and to preserve the position, where the water undertaker does own the land but requires the easement to keep his water supply, we put forward this Amendment. I hope I have made it reasonably clear, and I ask the Committee to give us this Amendment for this purpose.

I do not want to raise any question about the merits of this Amendment, but it does seem to me that the first sentence is wrong. I know it has been said that it is ridiculous to expect the Government to amend back benchers' Amendments, but I shall have the temerity to suggest that in the first sentence there is something really wrong. I will read the words:

"Where a Minister would have had the power to acquire any land under paragraph (6) of Sub-section (1) of Section (5) of this Act, if the owner thereof had no interest therein."

Sub-section (1) does not give the Minister any power to acquire any land if the owner thereof had had no interest, or only a limited interest, and I have yet to meet the owner of land who had no interest in the land. It seems to me that there is really something to put right there. If hon. Members will look back at Subsection (1) of Clause (5) they will read:

"The power of acquisition shall be exercisable if those works were constructed wholly or partly at the expense of the Crown or some other person having no interest or a limited interest in the land."

I do ask my hon. and learned Friend to look at these words again, because they seem to me to be inaccurate.

I have tried to explain to the Committee why I think the wording is all right, but I am sure that the last thing that the Committee would wish at this stage would be for me to have a discussion with my hon. Friend on the exact legal force of every word and every comma in this Amendment. I willingly agree to have a look at it, and if it needs improvement, to come forward and say so at once.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered: "That the Chairman; do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[ Mr. Mathers. ]

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

Ministry of Fuel and Power Bill

Order read for consideration of Lords Amendments.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments considered accordingly.

CLAUSE 6.—(Interpretation.)

Lords Amendment: In line 33, leave out from "1942" to end of line 34 and insert "do not include functions under."

9.7 p.m.

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This is a rather technical matter and I do not think the House would want a long explanation. There are certain func- tions connected with electricity and petroleum, concerning which there may be some doubt whether the powers are covered by the Order made in 1942. It is desirable to clear that up, and we have come to the conclusion that the solution which we have put forward in the original Bill is not quite right. The powers in question are, first, powers which arise under the Public Health Act of 1890 or under the Railways Electrical Power Act of 1903. These are powers relating to the making of by-laws for the prevention of danger from telegraph wires and other apparatus in and over streets and by the electrification of railways. These technically deal with electricity, and we have come to the conclusion that for a proper construction of the Order, they should remain where they were before the transfer, with the Ministry of Transport.

The other thing connected with the Petroleum Orders under the Petroleum Consolidation Act relates to apparatus for the testing of petroleum and that we think should remain with the Board of Trade to exercise their powers. The three Amendments go together and the effect of them is as I have stated. We think that this puts a very difficult and technical matter on the right lines and we admit that we did not hit the bull's eye at the first try.

Question put, and agreed to.

Remaining Lords Amendments agreed to.

Ministry of Civil Aviation [Money]

Resolution reported:

"That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for the appointment and functions of a Minister of Civil Aviation, and for purposes connected therewith, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of an annual salary not exceeding five thousand pounds payable to the Minister appointed under the said Act, and of the expenses of that Minister, including the salaries or remuneration payable to any Parliamentary Secretary, and to any other secretaries, officers or servants, appointed by the Minister."

Resolution agreed to.

Ministry of Civil Aviation Bill

Considered in Committee:

[Major MILNER in the Chair]

CLAUSE 1.—(Appointment and junctions of Minister of Civil Aviation.)

9.13 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 1, line 12, at end, insert:

"Provided that this Sub-section shall not authorise the production of civil aircraft by the Minister."

The purpose of the Amendment is to clarify the position under Clause 1. The Committee understands that this Bill is merely a machinery Bill to transfer the work of the Department of Civil Aviation now vested in the Air Ministry to a separate Ministry of Civil Aviation. It is generally understood that it is not intended that this Ministry should undertake the production of civil aircraft. From the wording of the Clause as it now stands it would appear that this would be the case. I am therefore moving this Amendment as the easiest and simplest way of clarifying the position in the Clause. If it should, at any future date, be decided that the Department of Civil Aviation ought to produce civil aircraft, that could be brought in, but this does not appear to be the time and place in which to do it on what is purely a machinery Bill.

I would like to point out to the Committee, to the Minister and also to the mover of the Amendment that, if the Clause is read in its grammatical context, it will be seen that the Amendment is totally unnecessary. It is purely negative and simply asserts that the Minister shall not engage in the production of civil aircraft when the production of civil aircraft is not included, even by implication in the Clause. I do not think that the Clause has been well constructed. It depends entirely upon two commas, but if it is read grammatically it really deals with the encouragement of measures of development and not the production of aircraft at all. Therefore, it is unnecessary. If it was designed for the purpose of preventing any future Government from producing civil aircraft, if the Government and the House of Commons were so inclined, that would be another matter and we would take up the position that a future Labour Government would be entitled to carry out the policy for which the Labour Party stands. But that is not implied in this Clause, and therefore I suggest that it is unnecessary. Even if it were carried, it would be very undesirable, from the point of view of putting an unnecessary part of the Clause into an Act, if a different kind of policy were adopted by the House of Commons. It is purely a question of drafting, and grammatically considered, the Clause does not imply the possibility at all as it stands of the production of civil aircraft by the Government.

The fear on the part of the hon. Member for Swindon (Sir W. Wakefield) and his friends is obvious from the haste with which his friends put down this particular Amendment. He and his friends are obviously standing for the perpetuation of private production and running of aircraft in this country. They have, as I have admitted before, scored a fairly considerable success in their activities during the last few years. I support my hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) in what he said and I note also the great eagerness and readiness with which those hon. Gentlemen rushed in to put down this Amendment. We have never accepted, as a House of Commons, the contents of the White Paper. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, as Leader of the House, said about a fortnight ago that he thought, in passing the Civil Estimates on that occasion, it authorised the Government to go ahead with the policy outlined in that White Paper. I warn the Government—and I think I can speak on behalf of my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee—that the Government have no authority whatever arising from that Debate to pursue anything at all as far as the general policy of the future of civil aviation is concerned.

I do not want to enlarge on that but I am concerned with drawing the attention of the Committee to the fact that certain hon. Members have been active for a long time in trying to secure the continuance and perpetuation of private interests in this very important weapon. I have made repeated speeches in this House, and I do not propose to add to them at this late hour, but their activities in this respect will not go unobserved in the country.

This Amendment deals with the question of the production of civil aircraft. As my right hon. Friend told the Committee on the occasion of the earlier Debate, as long as there is a Ministry of Aircraft Production it will be responsible for the design, development and production of civil aircraft in accordance with the requirements of the Ministry shortly to be officially presided over by my Noble Friend. During such time as it is necessary for the Government to order civil aircraft, my Department will continue to do so. As soon as possible, it is our wish that the operators shall get into direct touch with the manufacturers. It is desirable that the Minister of Civil Aviation should be able to participate in these considerations when that stage is reached. He may want, for example, to make experiments which are beyond the scope of some purely private firm. He does not want, and has never asked, to be equipped with the power to undertake the manufacture of civil aircraft himself. What will happen in the future is open to anybody to gauge, and for any future Parliament to settle, but my Noble Friend does not want such a power.

I am inclined to agree with my hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) that the introduction of these words is rather superfluous, but none the less, in order to make it quite clear that my Noble Friend does not wish such a power, and is fully content to leave the manufacture in the hands of the existing firms who have rendered such signal service to us during the last five years or more, if it is the wish of the Committee, I am quite prepared to accept these words and have them added to the Clause.

I would like to emphasise the point not only that this Amendment is unnecessary and superfluous, but that it is of an entirely negative character and, therefore, quite inappropriately attached to a Clause of this character. It emphasises a point of view in respect of policy that has nothing whatever to do with the text of this particular Clause, and that is our objection to it. We do not want negative addenda to a Clause which might complicate any further development of policy on the part of a future Government or even on the part of this Government if it lasted long enough and changed its character. I think it is very bad legislation to put in an unnecessary negative addendum to a Clause of this character, and I strongly urge upon the Minister not to accept the Amendment and ask the proposers of it, in view of what has been said, to withdraw it, because, from their point of view it is totally unnecessary; it does not at all interfere either one way or the other with their own ideas of policy in regard to the production of civil aircraft.

We ought not to discuss at this moment the merits of Nationalism, Socialism, Conservatism or Liberalism, but I have never known a Bill which by implication authorised a Minister to take part in production. We had a Ministry of Fuel and Power Bill the other day but nobody said the Minister ought personally to produce coal. The object of a Ministry is to regulate those people engaged in that industry and not, generally speaking, to participate in it. If we are to have that issue, let us have it in a Bill which says we shall be Socialists and not do it by a side issue. All that this Amendment says is that it shall not be part of the functions of the Minister to take part in the production, and much as I respect my hon. Friend, who knows a lot about the production of vegetables, I do not think he would be a very efficient producer of aircraft, quite apart from anything else, and I do not think his distinguished chief would be. I am not certain who his chief is on this job, because the proper Minister is not present, but I do hope we are not going to get into a Bill things which we shall settle at a General Election. So I hope we shall leave this as an administrative and not a production Ministry.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary propose to accept this Amendment?

What I said was that I was inclined to sympathise with the point of view put by the hon. Member for West Islington, but in order to make it perfectly plain that the Minister of Civil Aviation has no intention of engaging in the direct production of aircraft, if this Amendment makes that more plain in the view of the Committee I am quite prepared to accept it.

But surely, if that is so, it is not for this Committee to crib, cabin and confine any Government which may follow it. I take it that when the draughts-men worked on this Bill they did so with some degree of knowledge of what was in the mind of the Government. It is obvious to me and, I take it, to the Committee, that the Government have had second thoughts on this and have given in to the pressure of my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Sir W. Wakefield) and others with him, and they have accepted, at this late hour, an Amendment which is going to make an enormous amount of difference to this Bill. If I understand the minds of my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee, we are not going to let it go without a protest and, if necessary, we will take it to a Division.

I hope my hon. Friend will not mind my intervening because I want to deal with the question which worries the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) and the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall). I want to deal with the verbal problem, as I see it, here, and I hope that my hon. Friends opposite will realise that there is no sinister intention behind my hon. Friend's acceptance of the Amendment. I wonder if my hon. Friend the Member for West Islington would follow my reading of the Clause, and see if he agrees with that, because I think it does diverge from his suggestion on one point. If the Committee will look at Clause 1, they will see: ment of civil aviation—that is the first category. The designing, development and production of civil aviation is the second, and includes production. Third, for the promotion of safety and efficiency in the use therof. Fourth, for research. If my hon. Friends will follow me, therefore, taking each part in turn, one possibility is, charged with the general duty of carrying out and encouraging measures for the production of civil aircraft. So you get these words, "carrying out and encouraging measures for the production of civil aircraft," and it seemed to me—and this is the advice that I give to the Committee, though I am quite willing to be told that it is wrong—that "encouraging measures for the production of civil aircraft" might be construed as giving the Minister the right to engage in direct production, that is, to set up his own factories, and produce his own aircraft. Now what the Minister wants, and what is clearly intended by the Bill, is that, if for example, he wants an experimental model of some type, he should be able to go to the appropriate place, whether it be State or private enterprise at the time, and say to them: "Make this model for me." That we all want to cover, but we do not want to cover, and the Clause is not intended to cover, his going into what we used to call in the local authority context, direct production of the aircraft. It was in order to make that distinction which was the intention of the Clause that my hon. Friend was prepared to accept the Amendment.

In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley, I want to say that there is no question of any Statute at any time tying a succeeding Government or Parliament. An Act of Parliament speaks as a voice of the Government when they pass it, and any other Government can at once repeal it or amend it any way they like. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) would agree that that is the kernel of our Parliamentary system—

9.30 p.m.

Certainly, it is by another Act of Parliament that that is done. There can be no impress of policy on a successive Parliament, which is perfectly free. I am anxious to show my hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) how I was construing the Section, and why I felt bound to advise the Committee that the Section, as at present drawn, might, by one construction of the encouraging measures, be construed as allowing direct production, whereas it is obvious from the guarded terms of the Section that there is to be no direct production in that sense.

We are indebted to the Solicitor-General for his explanation, which has cleared up some of the points, but it has not cleared up all the points. We are dealing here with an immediate position whereby, if this Bill becomes law, the Minister of Civil Aviation will assume certain responsibilities with regard to the ordering and design of aircraft, and research, and so on. In this matter the Government control over ordinary aircraft has been absolutely complete. There is only one customer at the moment for civil and military aircraft, and that is the Government, through the Ministry of Aircraft Production. It is not a question of the Royal Air Force ordering machines direct. Under the Bill, as the Solicitor-General pointed out, there are four functions which will be given to the Minister of Civil Aviation, and one of them involves production. My experience is that quantities play a great part in the design and production of civil aircraft. You might get a situation where the Society of British Aircraft Constructors could not agree on a particular design for a flying-boat or land-based aircraft, and the Minister would be called in. There might be a considerable difference of opinion. The Minister might say that because of security or other reasons he was going to decide in favour of land-based aircraft as against flying-boats, and was prepared to sponsor an order to a firm outside the B.S.A.C. for so many aircraft.

I want to give a further illustration. In the case of the South Atlantic, a Committee was set up to investigate the design which should be used on the South Atlantic routes. I believe the Director-General of Civil Aviation was represented on that Committee. It made surveys on both sides of the Atlantic, and finally decided in favour of land-based aircraft. That was the report of the independent Committee to the Ministry. What did the Ministry do? Instead of carrying out the recommendation of that report, it decided, for a variety of reasons, in favour of using the Short Empire flying boat. The point of this illustration is to show that the contact between the Ministry of Civil Aviation, design, operators and producers is going to be very close. I want to know whether, if this Amendment was accepted, it would preclude the Department from giving orders in considerable quantity to any producer outside the Society of Aircraft Constructors.

I listened with interest to the Solicitor-General. Hon. Members on this side understand perfectly well that no one Parliament and no legislation in one Parliament can bind another Parliament. Nevertheless, we also know perfectly well from experience that if there is on the Statute Book a bulk of Statute law that has to be repealed before a new Government can get on with its policy, there is a waste of valuable Parliamentary time. I say frankly that my hon. Friends on this side see here some possibility of hamstringing the efforts and policies that we propose to pursue after the next election.

The great anxiety with which the Amendment was proposed and the readiness with which the Parliamentary Secretary accepted it show quite clearly that here is an issue of fundamental difference between the political parties in the House. Why is the hon. and gallant Member for Swindon (Sir W. Wakefield) so anxious to make quite sure that the Ministry of Civil Aviation shall never be allowed, as long as this Bill, as amended by the Amendment, is in force, to produce aircraft? It is because he wants that for his friends. [ Interruption. ] That is the view of hon. Members on this side. I do not mean his personal friends, but the people whose interests he is representing, and the people whose interests a lot of other hon. Members have been representing. We were not anxious on this side to put forward any opposition to the Bill. It is purely because of the advice which the Parliamentary Secretary has accepted from the Solicitor-General and possibly the pressure from hon. Members behind him that we are determined to take this matter to a Division if he still persists in his intention to accept his Amendment.

The hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville) said that he was much indebted to the Solicitor-General for his explanation, but as the hon. Member developed his argument, I began to wonder why he was indebted, because it was quite clear he had not understood what the Solicitor-General was saying. The same observation applies to the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles). It is no good the hon. Member for Nuneaton saying that here we are fighting a principle, because nothing of the sort is being done. The Clause says, somewhat vaguely, that this Ministry shall not have the power to produce aircraft. The only thing the Amendment does is to be definitive in that respect and to make it perfectly clear. The hon. Gentleman opposite has to make up his mind whether he recognises that principle or not. All that the Amendment does is to clarify words which are already in the provision. As I understand the position, the policy of the Government, whether the hon. Gentleman likes it or not, is that this Ministry shall not be capable of producing aircraft. The hon. Gentleman may like at some future date to support a Government which takes the contrary view. But the present position is that no amending words will alter the effect of the Clause. All they do is to clarify it as it stands.

I am indebted to my hon. and gallant Friend. The Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) said that in his reading of the Clause the Minister would not be empowered to engage in the production of civil aircraft but, because there was some doubt in the minds of the Committee whether this was sufficiently clearly stated, I said I was ready to accept the Amendment. If the hon. Member is right—and I think he is—that under the wording as it stands my right hon. Friend could not engage in the production, there is very little harm in accepting the Amendment. As to the point raised by the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville), even if the Bill is amended in this way there is nothing whatever to stop the Minister from placing orders for certain types. If my Noble Friend feels that types should be tried out and ordered, he is absolutely free to place an order for them, and nothing that I have said would preclude him from the full exercise of that complete power.

I ask the Minister not to accept the Amendment for the moment but to leave it to a future stage. This is a machinery Bill, which the Labour Party has accepted, and our objection is to spatch-cocking a major question of policy into the Clause unnecessarily, and an addendum of a totally negative character.

This is no question of a major change of policy. As the hon. Member said, the Bill does not permit the Minister to do what I think could be more clearly expressed by accepting the Amendment. He cannot have it both ways. He cannot start by saying that the Minister has no such power and then regard words which make that clear as involving a major change of policy.

I did not say there was a major change of policy but that a major question of policy is involved in the Amendment. If it is passed, we should certainly feel very much inclined to discuss it as a question of policy. I do not think it is desirable at this time of night, after the discussions we have had on policy questions, that we should engage in such a discussion, but it has been unnecessarily raised by the Amendment. I cannot compete with the right hon. and learned Gentleman and I am not a Parliamentary draughtsman, but I suggest that, if the Clause had anything to do with giving authority to the Minister to produce aircraft directly, it would have said so. Obviously it is a question of carrying out encouraging measures in questions of design and authorising research. All these things are involved in measures which the Ministry will be authorised to do. I think the hon. Gentleman agrees with me that the Clause does not authorise the Ministry to engage in the direct production of aircraft. We do not want that question brought up by a backstairs addendum to the Clause. I ask the Minister to leave the thing to a later stage and give it some further thought before the question is finally settled.

9.45 p.m.

I am mystified by the speech that we have just heard. The hon. Member said he understood the Bill not to give the Minister power to engage in the production of aircraft and he said he regarded it as being a machinery Bill. If no par- ticular matter of principle were brought up, he would not wish to indulge in this question of principle. If that is his view of the Bill, and if he was prepared to accept the Bill at an earlier stage this evening, I do not understand why he should now object to the insertion of words which will make clear beyond doubt the interpretation of the Bill which he himself has said is his own reading of it. This matter might have passed without any serious discussion if it had not been for the speech of the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles). He indicated plainly that here was machinery which was being set up by the present Government and that he looked forward, with a spirit of optimism in which I am sure he will be disappointed, to a time when a Government of a different complexion will come in and use the machinery for purposes entirely different from that which the present Government and the Committee have in mind. If there were any doubt in my mind about a provision of this kind it has been removed by the speech of the hon. Gentleman. Since many of us accept the view of the hon. Member for West Islington, who speaks with great authority on behalf of his party on these matters, that this is a machinery Bill, and that he does not think it is designed to enable or will enable the Minister to engage in large scale production of civil aircraft, these words could with great advantage be introduced in order to make plain that the view of the hon. Gentleman is the true interpretation of the Bill.

If I may say so with out offence, the only speech that matters is that of the Solicitor-General. He read this Clause very slowly, and went so far as to say that, read in one way, it included the production of aircraft, and, that being so, if it was the wish of the Committee that it should be made clear that that was not in the Clause, these words should be added. If, as can be argued, the Minister has the right under this Clause to produce aircraft, it is late in the day, after the Bill has been drafted and passed by the Cabinet for presentation to the House, and a little short of sharp practice—

Are we to understand that the House of Commons is not entitled to amend Bills after they have been drafted and presented to the House?

I was not arguing that or denying that the House had that right. I was saying that it was a little short of sharp practice that here to-night, with such argument as has been presented to us, an Amendment should be accepted which either makes nonsense of the Clause, or is completely redundant. I would ask the Minister to agree with, what my hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) has said, and, as there is this ambiguity and difference of opinion, and as there is a party truce and this is a Measure which has been introduced with the consent of all parties, to take the matter back and have another look at it, so that, when we have discovered what the words should be, they can be put in at some later stage.

I wish I could give way to the plea put forward with such eloquence and moderation, but the position is that my hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) has given his interpretation of the powers of the Minister, and I cannot believe that that is not clearly expressed in the wording of the Clause. I am prepared, however, to accept an Amendment which will make clear the point of view expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for West Islington. It would not be possible to undertake to postpone consideration of this matter to a later stage, because it is the Government's hope to get all the stages of the Bill to-night. We are all alike anxious to see the Minister of Civil Aviation equipped with proper powers for the effective discharge of his responsibilities, and I hope that the Committee, having had an opportunity of hearing the various points of view, and, seeing that this Amendment only puts in clearer words the view expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for West Islington, will consent to give approval to the Amendment. I cannot undertake to postpone the consideration to the Report stage, which I very much hope, with the courtesy and goodwill of the House, we Shall get in a few minutes' time.

May I point out that if the desired purpose is to be achieved, the proper way of doing so, is to delete the words "carrying out." There would be far less objection from this side of the Committee to such a proposal. It is the unnecessary assertion of the negative to which we object.

I hope the Minister will consider the suggestion which has just been made by the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague). I can understand the objection to a negative Amendment such as this. I think the Committee will understand by this time, that the present intention of the Government is not to engage, in any measure, in the production of aeroplanes; but it is open to any other Government which succeeds this Government to engage in such production. I, therefore, hope the Minister will consider the suggestion which has been put forward.

There is a little more in this than the Parliamentary Secretary has indicated. Before the war the production of civil aircraft, or research in regard to civil aircraft, was vested in the Air Ministry. I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary, when the Air Ministry had the responsibility of ordering aircraft, was there anything which prevented the Air Ministry from taking action in regard to the production of an aerodrome? We are handing over to the Ministry of Civil Aviation practically all the powers which were held by the Air Ministry before the war with regard to the ordering of aircraft. If this Amendment is accepted, does it mean that if the Ministry of Civil Aviation produce an aeroplane at Farnborough, or one of their research stations, they will be involved in an illegal act?

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to reconsider his decision. Would it not be fair to exclude those words which, in his first speech, he admitted would be redundant? I think that is the expression he used. We have examined this Bill and while there has been a lot of talk about private enterprise, we have decided to accept it as it is. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary, in view of his first speech when he seemed disinclined to accept the Amendment, to reconsider the matter.

My hon. Friend the Member for Eye (Mr. Granville) inquired whether, if this Amendment were accepted, it would prevent my noble Friend from placing a development contract at Farnborough. It would not. I am advised that if we yielded to the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) and agreed to delete the words "and carrying out," it would imperil the position, and the responsibilities of my noble Friend at Farnborough. We are anxious that that sort of power should not be taken away from him. By accepting this form of words, we wish to make it clear that while the design and development of aircraft are free and untrammelled, the Minister should be barred from the production of civil aircraft.

In regard to what the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) said, there is no question of a last minute looking round to see the reactions of the Committee to the Amendment. As soon as the Amendment appeared on the Order Paper we naturally took counsel together and discussed whether it did, better than our original words, express the intention that a united Government comprising all the major parties in the House, had in mind. We were satisfied that that was so. My hon. and learned Friend himself, who cannot be here to-night, is in entire agreement with the line that I am taking in undertaking to support the Amendment We are satisfied on that, and I would now ask the Committee to come to a speedy decision.

It is no use rushing this Bill through. My hon. Friend now says that it is possible under the Clause for the Minister to produce aircraft at Farnborough, which is a Government establishment.

Well, how many aircraft? Ten, 50, 1,000? I would ask the Solicitor-General for his guidance.

My hon. Friend will be aware of the existence of the Public Accounts Committee. It is they who, by the ordinary machinery of this House, watch—quite rightly—over Government Departments, in the interest of the taxpayer, to see whether public money is being properly spent. The Minister would have power to initiate the production at Farnborough of experimental models of aircraft in sufficient numbers to yield results, but not to engage in mass production in competition with recognised firms.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 75; Noes, 16.

Division No. 15.]

AYES.

[9.57 p.m.

Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh)

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir D. H.

Pym, L. R.

Beattie, F. (Cathcart)

Hepburn, Major P. G. T. Buchan-

Raikes, H. V. A. M.

Beechman, N. A.

Hogg, Hon. Q. McG.

Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

Beit, Sir A. L.

Hudson, Sir A. (Hackney N.)

Robertson, Rt. Hon. Sir M.A. (M'cham)

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C.

Hulbert, Wing-Commander N. J.

Ross Taylor, W.

Bower, Norman (Harrow)

Hutchison, Lt.-Com. G. I. C. (E'burgh)

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose)

Jennings, R.

Spearman, A. C. M.

Bull, B. B.

Jones, Sir L. (Swansea, W.)

Storey, S.

Butcher, H. W.

Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Comdr. Hon. L. W.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (Northwich)

Cary, R. A.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Christie, J. A.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Sutcliffe, H.

Colegate, W. A.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Tealing, Flight-Lieut. W.

Cook, Lt.-Col. Sir T.R.A.M. (N'f'lk, N.)

Linstead, H. N.

Turton, R. H.

Cox, Major H. B. Trevor

Lipson, D. L.

Ward, Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Dodd, J. S.

Loftus, P. C.

White, Sir Dymoke (Fareham)

Drewe, C.

McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. (Blaydon)

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Mander, Sir G. le M.

Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Marlowe, Lt.-Col. A.

Windsor-Clive, Lt.-Col. G.

Furness, S. N.

Mathers, G.

Woolley, Major W. E.

Fyfe, Major Sir D. P. M.

Mellor, Sir J. S. P.

Wootton-Davies, J. H.

Gates, Major E. E.

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Wright, Group-Capt. J. (Erdington)

George, Maj. Rt. Hon. G. Lloyd (P'b'ke)

Molson, A. H. E.

York, Major C.

Grant-Ferris, Wing Commander R.

Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

Young, Major A. S. L. (Partick)

Greenwell, Col. T. G.

Perkins, W. R. D.

Grimston, Hon. J. (St. Albans)

Petherick, M.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Gunston, Major Sir D. W.

Procter, Major H. A.

Mr. Etherton and Sir Wavell

Wakefield.

NOES.

Benson, G.

Harvey T. E.

Thorneycroft, H. (Clayton)

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Horabin, T. L.

Tinker, J. J.

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Hubbard, T. F.

Buchanan, G.

Hughes, R. Moelwyn

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Montague, F.

Mr. Glenville Hall and

Granville, E. L.

Murray, J. D. (Spennymoor)

Mr. Bowles.

Guy, W. H.

Silkin, L.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2.—(Transfer to Minister of functions, rights and liabilities relating to civil aviation.)

I beg to move, in page 1, line 19, at end, insert:

"and any other enactment relating to civil aviation, being an enactment contained in a local or private Act, shall have effect subject to such modifications as may be specified for the purpose aforesaid by Order in Council.

An Order in Council under this section may be varied or revoked by a subsequent Order in Council thereunder."

This Amendment is necessary because of a scrupulous desire to carry out the general wishes of the House. It is the sort of thing which might easily happen when the draftsmen try to carry out the constantly-expressed wish of the House on the face of the Bill. We have tried to set out on the face of the Bill the consequential Amendments of the various enactments in the Schedule necessitated by the transfer of powers from the Secretary of State for Air to the Minister of Civil Aviation. The House has often expressed the wish that in this sort of transfer that machinery should be followed. In the past it has been found almost invariably necessary to carry out that transfer by Orders in Council. We were anxious on this occasion to avoid it, but unexpected minor provisions in Acts have been found, which were not expected, and which are liable to be overlooked. We found that there are certain local Acts where powers have been vested in the Secretary of State for Air, and we do not know how many there are. In some local Acts there are obligations placed on local authorities, insisting, say, on the lighting of pylons or limiting the height of chimneys, with the consent of the Secretary of State for Air. We wish in these cases to read "Minister of Civil Aviation," and, rather reluctantly, we are obliged to ask the Committee to authorise us to do this by Orders in Council. It is a very modest change, and it deals only with local Acts.

This is a necessary power, but I regret that there is no opportunity for the House to challenge any Order in Council. I think that when His Majesty does something by Order in Council there should be an opportunity for the House to pray against it. My hon. Friend and I think alike on many things, and I am not going to accuse him of drafting these words, but I suggest that in another place an Amendment might be made, so that if we desire it we may have an opportunity to pray against any of these Orders in Council, either here or in another place.

The scope of the Amendment is very narrow, and the draftsmen have a very hard task these days to keep up with the spate of legislation. I make no promise, but I will look into the matter.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 2, line 5, leave out from "property," to "be," in line 10, and insert:

"right or liability vested, enjoyed or incurred in or by the Secretary of State was or was not vested, enjoyed or incurred for the purposes of civil aviation, or that anything made, done or taken by to or before the Secretary of State was or was not made, done or taken for those purposes shall, in determining any question as to the effect of either of the two last foregoing subsections."

Would it be possible to consider this Amendment and the next together, as they deal with the same point?

It was the existence of the next Amendment which drew our attention to the necessity for this Amendment. There is nothing sinister in this Amendment. It was represented to us, when we first looked at the Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Duddeston (Sir O. Simmonds), that an impression might be created that a certificate could actually define a power, instead of dealing solely with the transfer of the power from the Secretary of State for Air to the Minister of Civil Aviation. No new Departmental or Ministerial power is created by this provision dealing with a certificate. All that is involved is that, where a power is shown to have been vested in the Secretary of State, a certificate is adequate to show that that power has been transferred. I am grateful to my hon. Friends for clearing up some obscurity in the wording, and I hope the Amendment may be accepted.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and to the Law Officers of the Crown, for attempting to meet the point which we tried to cover in the Amendment in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Duddeston (Sir O. Simmonds). I do not wish to dismiss it too quickly, because I am not a lawyer, not even a successful sea lawyer, but I see a number of real lawyers here, and I am asking the Minister to consider Subsection (4) with the Government Amendment, which they think meets the point at issue. The essential words of Subsection (4) are:

"A certificate by the Secretary of State and the Minister that any property was or was not vested in the Secretary of State .… shall, for all purposes (including the purposes of any legal proceedings), be conclusive of the matters certified."

I would draw the attention of the Committee to the words "including the purposes of any legal proceedings." When in a difficulty, I always feel tempted to try to look for a rather glaring example, even if it appears ridiculous. Suppose the Secretary of State for Air had taken over Lambeth Palace, and there was some question, possibly involving a lawsuit, whether Lambeth Palace was vested in the Secretary of State or not. It seems to me that the Clause, as at present worded, might mean that a mere certificate by the Secretary of State would solve the question to whether Lambeth Palace was vested or not, by the mere fact of the certificate being issued. It was for that reason, and to clear up any question of that kind, that we put down this Amendment. The Government Amendment—leaving out non-essential words—would make the Sub-section read:

"A certificate by the Secretary of State and the Minister that any property .… vested in the Secretary of State, shall, in determining any question as to the effect of either of the two last foregoing Subsections, be conclusive of the matters certified."

I think the important words are "in determining any question as to the effect of either of the two last foregoing Subsections." If hon. Members will turn to the most important of the two foregoing Sub-sections—Sub-section (2), of course—they will find that it reads, leaving out non-essential words:

"Any property vested in the Secretary of State immediately before the passing of this Act shall, on the passing thereof, vest in the Minister."

That is to say that, in the case of disputes still pending, the Secretary of State certifies to the owner of the property, say the Archbishop of Canterbury in the case of Lambeth Palace, that the property is vested in him. Therefore, it is only evidence, if the Committee accepts the Amendment proposed by the Government. Obviously if there is any doubt as to whether any Government property which is being handed over is in fact legally vested in the Secretary of State, the Secretary of State or the new Minister, issues a certificate. It does not have any effect on any legal proceedings but is only evidence to the effect that the Secretary of State for Air before the Bill became an Act, and the Minister for Civil Aviation after the Bill becomes an Act, are protecting themselves if there is any dispute. I hope hon. and learned Members can follow the rather difficult argument which I have endeavoured to put forward.

10.15 p.m.

I do not think we have had any explanation from the Government as to their intention in regard to the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Duddeston (Sir O. Simmonds) and other hon. Members, and I do not know whether you, Major Milner, are prepared to hear arguments upon that issue. I should not, from what I have heard from the Under-Secretary for the Ministry of Aircraft Production, regard the Amendment which has been put down by the Government as entirely meeting that point covered by the Amendment put down by other hon. Members.

It is my intention on behalf of the Government to ask the Committee to accept the Government Amendment and not to accept the following Amendment. We consider that the Government Amendment fully meets the point which has been re-argued by the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth (Mr. Petherick), who I feel is a loss to Chancery Chambers.

I do not think this can be passed over with so light a gesture. The point of the Amendment of my hon. Friends which has not been moved but which is, quite obviously, closely connected with the Government's Amendment, is that while the certificate would probably state the legal position it should not, of itself, be regarded as conclusive. There really is no justification whatever for a certificate of a Minister of the Crown being conclusive so that it excludes jurisdiction of the courts. There are, obviously, matters in which the knowledge of a Minister of the Crown is of a conclusive nature and in matters of foreign jurisdiction going back over a very long period of time, all such legislation has been regarded as conclusive. All that is provided in the second Amendment is that it shall not preclude the courts from studying evidence to see that the certificate, although it may be in perfectly good faith, is not based on an erroneous version of the facts. I hope we shall have some further explanation from the Under Secretary.

I feel bound to support the hon. Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson). I do not think that such a certificate should be so conclusive as to exclude the jurisdiction of the courts. I would like to have some explanation from the Solicitor General of why it is necessary to have this power. I quite understand the reason for having words to effect that the certificate shall be evidence of the facts contained therein, but I do not think it wise that the courts should not be able to go behind such a certificate, to see whether it is good or not. The Minister might make a mistake, or might be misinformed. All he has to do in those circumstances is to put forward a certificate and, if it is produced in court, no court is entitled to go behind it and inquire into it. That is a very bad principle. Unless the Solicitor-General has some good explanation to offer, the point made by the hon. Gentleman is a good one.

Perhaps I might first clear up what is merely a constituency doubt. My hon. Friend the Member for Penryn and Falmouth (Mr. Petherick) was satisfied with this Amendment for reasons he fully expressed to the Committee; it was my hon. Friend the Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson) who was somewhat doubtful. If I might explain the position to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Brighton (Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe), the clearest way is that he should first of all look at the purposes of Clause 2 of the Bill. Sub-section (1) of Clause 2 and the Schedule provide for the transfer to the new Minister of all the civil aviation functions to the Secretary of State for Air. There is no doubt about that, and I hope that hon. Friends will interrupt me if there is any doubt at all. As a result of the transfer certain consequential provisions are necessary. First of all, all property vested in or enjoyed by or liability incumbent on the Secretary of State for Air for purposes of civil aviation shall, on the passing of the Act, go to the new Minister. Then you require to have a saving provision for

"Any regulation, order, direction, appointment, agreement, requirement, or representation."

That is saved by sub-section 3, and that arises, with all these matters I have just read. Any

"proceeding taken by, or or before the Secretary of State before the passing of this Act for the purposes of civil aviation and in force and having effect at the passing thereof shall after the passing thereof be treated as if it had been made, done, or taken by, to or before the Minister."

You have, first of all, the alteration of property and secondly, the alteration of powers. You have to provide for the transition and to declare that

"A certificate by the Secretary of State and the Minister that any property right or liability vested, enjoyed or incurred in or by the Secretary of State was or was not vested, enjoyed, or incurred for the purposes of civil aviation,"—

That is, when your prerequisite of the transfer is complied with—

"or that anything made, done or taken by, to or before the Secretary of State was or was not made, done or taken for those purposes shall, in determining any question as to the effect of either of the two last foregoing subsections be conclusive of the matters certified."

It shall be for the Minister to say that property was held or it was owned or a thing was done for the purposes of civil aviation. I cannot see that there can be any objection as to that being decided as a Government matter. It is not a juridical issue whether the Air Ministry property is held or the thing is done for purposes of civil aviation or anything else. That is a matter which must be decided administratively by the Minister in charge and I thought that we had agreed on that.

Suppose an airfield were at the present time owned by a local authority, would there not be power under the Clause as it stands? If the Minister certified, after the passing of the Act, that it was not vested in the local authority or in the Air Ministry, would not that certificate be conclusive and would it then not be open to the local authority to dispute it?

No, because, as I read it, the only question on which the certificate is final is that of the purposes for which the subject matter was held. If the dispute was on the question "Did the aerodrome belong to the Secretary of State, or did it belong to the Brighton Corporation," that would not be a matter on which the certification would be conclusive. But it would be conclusive on the question of whether it was a military or a civil aerodrome.

The other point that I would like my hon. and gallant Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for The High Peak to remember is that this is fully covered by precedent. If my hon. Friends will look at Section 3 (4) of the Ministry of Supply Act, 1939, and if they will look at Section 5 (3) of the Ministers of the Crown (Emergency Powers) Act, 1939, they will find that certificates as to transfer have already been made final in this way, so one is not in any way encroaching on the rights of the court or making a new invasion of the control of the court, one is merely carrying out a perfectly ordinary and usual provision for transitional circumstances. I hope I have at any rate lessened the doubts of my hon. and gallant Friend.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

I do not wish to delay the Committee for more than two minutes. I have already put this point to my hon. Friend on the Front Bench but I would like to have it on record. Under Clause 2, the new Minister takes over from the Secretary of State the rights and liabilities relating to civil aviation, and there are further definitions of the functions he takes over in the Schedule. My right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Aircraft Production on Second Reading said this:—

"So long as my Department—"

that is, the Ministry of Aircraft Production

"remains in existence, and that, I imagine, will anyhow be until the end of the war, it is the intention that I should be responsible for the design, development and production of civil aircraft in accordance with the requirements put forward by the Minister of Civil Aviation." [OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th April, 1945, Vol. 409, c. 1904.]

If the Ministry of Aircraft Production is, until the end of the war anyhow, to remain responsible for design, development and production, at some future date the new Minister will have to take over responsibility for those matters. Although I have been assured privately by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary that it is so, I should like to receive an assurance here that it will not be necessary to come to Parliament again for a new Bill to enable the new Minister of Civil Aviation to take over those powers, at present being exercised by the Ministry of Aircraft Production—which powers, according to the speech, on Second Reading, of the Minister of Aircraft Production himself, that Minister will continue to enjoy for some time, probably as long as the Ministry exists. It would be rather an abuse of Parliamentary time if we were asked to pass this Bill and then, at a later stage, find ourselves presented with another Bill, merely on the narrow point of the powers I have mentioned being, in fact, within the authority of the new Ministry.

10.30 p.m.

I am afraid I could not give a dogmatic assurance such as the hon. Member has asked. The future of the Supply Departments is still under consideration. It remains to be seen in what form, if at all, they survive and what their powers shall be and it is impossible for me to say in advance, whether all powers will or will not be transferred to the Minister of Civil Aviation. It has been the intention of the Parliamentary draftsmen and His Majesty's Government so to draw the Bill that those powers, now vested in the Minister of Aircraft Production, that are necessary for the proper discharge of my noble Friend's duties shall be provided for in this Bill, and so that, with the possible disappearance of the Ministry of Aircraft Production, my noble Friend will glide irresistibly into the functions of civil aviation now occupied by the Minister of Aircraft Production.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4.—(Appointment of officers, remuneration and expenses.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I would like to be the first to congratulate the first Under-Secretary of the new Ministry, set up under this Bill—the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Perkins). I would like to raise a constitutional point but I am not quite sure if this is the proper occasion to do so. I did not know that a Minister appointed a Parliamentary Secretary as would appear from this Clause. I thought the King apointed him on the representation of the Prime Minister. I would like to be told the real position in this respect because I think that one of the most salutary things in the present Government was that the Prime Minister so arranged matters that for instance the Parliamentary Secretary for the Ministry of Aircraft Production was to work with the Minister, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade was to work with the President of the Board of Trade and so on. I would be glad to hear whether this is really so.

I would like to support the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) in congratulating the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Perkins) on his appointment. On the constitutional point raised by the hon. Member I would like to ask this question. Supposing the Minister were minded to reduce his own salary by £1,500 and add that £1,500 to the salary of the Parliamentary Secretary, would it be in order?

Are we to understand that under this procedure, in fact as well as in words, the Minister will send for and appoint his own Parliamentary Secretary or will it have to be done through the Prime Minister, as a sort of go between?

This is the usual constitutional practice of the Ministry of Supply Act, 1939, under which the Minister "may appoint a Parliamentary Secretary" and it is the same in previous Acts. Many Ministers would be surprised to find that they did in fact appoint their own Parliamentary Secretaries, but it is the constitutional practice. I am glad to make that clear. It is a point which is sometimes overlooked.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Remaining Clauses ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule agreed to.

Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed.

Aircraft Production (Transferred R.A.F. Personnel)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Cary. ]

10.35 p.m.

I am glad of this opportunity of raising the matter of the very shabby treatment proposed to be meted out by the Air Ministry to airmen transferred at the request of the Air Ministry, early in this war, to the Ministry of Aircraft Production. I appreciate that the hour is already very late, but I feel sure the House will be willing to spare a short time to discuss what is a legitimate grievance and a grave injustice.

First, however, I want to extend a welcome, if I may, and offer congratulations, to the new Under-Secretary of State for Air on his appointment. Tonight is, I think, his debut in the House as a Minister of the Crown, and I am sure we are all very glad to see his great ability rewarded in this way. I am specially glad that he is to reply to-night for the Air Ministry, because he has been for some time now a very forceful champion from these benches of the serving man and serving woman. I only hope that his zeal in that direction will continue now that he is in a position where he can really effect something.

Briefly, the position is this. Late in 1941 and early in 1942, the Ministry of Aircraft Production were desperately short of men skilled and suitable for certain technical work in aircraft production. It was decided that the Air Ministry should call for volunteers. Instructions were circulated to units and every means of persuasion were used. The men were told they would in no way suffer. It was made plain that it would be a patriotic action to volunteer their services for use by the Ministry of Aircraft Production. At some stations there was a lack of volunteers and, indeed, one lady who has written to me on behalf of her husband now serving with the Royal Air Force overseas says that her husband did not, in fact, volunteer. The expression she uses is this:

So these men went to the Ministry of Aircraft Production—somewhere, I believe, between 5,000 and 10,000—not as civilians, but still under the control of the Air Ministry; still as Royal Air Force personnel—not to live at home as civilians. They were mostly posted to work away from their homes in essential factories, and living in billets. They were always liable to recall and, indeed, a great proportion of them have, in fact, been recalled, and many are now serving overseas with the Royal Air Force. And with what result? They have, in my submission, been most wickedly deceived. Because the Government now have a demobilisation scheme which at present does not happen to fit these men Air Ministry is apparently to rely upon a legal quibble in words to deprive these men of what was always understood by everybody at the time to have been their rights. Air Minis- try now explains this position by seeking to draw a distinction between "service towards your current engagement" and "service qualifying for release." On demobilisation, these men have to go to the bottom of the scale in their rights as members of the Royal Air Force on their recall from the Ministry of Aircraft Production.

Those who are still with the Ministry of Aircraft Production have, of course, no rights as civilians. They are still, as I have said, R.A.F. personnel likely to be recalled to the R.A.F. for demobilisation at the bottom of the scale. Those serving in the R.A.F. at the present time are to be deprived of their rights as airmen, though many of them have served for the full period of the war. I have had a great many letters on this subject and in the few minutes that remain to me I want to quote from them. They are not all from my own constituency but are from persons all over the country. The first comes from Liverpool, and after thanking me for taking an interest in the matter, the writer says: mobilization scheme, probably I suspect at War Cabinet level, and if my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary can do nothing to-night to meet the case may I ask him to bring this injustice to the attention of the War Cabinet which, I feel, would wish to put right what, at present, is a definite breach of faith.

10.45 p.m.

Although the hour is late, I am delighted to be here to-night to take part in this discussion for two reasons: first, because I believe my hon. Friend has raised a matter which is important to a very large number of men in the Forces, and also, because it gives one an opportunity of congratulating my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary on his well-deserved appointment. It may we that in years to come, we shall look back on this moment and be pleased that we were present to hear him make his first speech from that Bench.

Like many other Members of Parliament I have quite a number of letters not only from R.A.F. men but from men in the Army on this question, but not very many from those at present in the Navy. There is no doubt that this question of temporary release to go into ordinary industrial undertakings has got into a muddle. Some thought it would count towards their service. Others thought they would get their week's leave and the 56 days later on, when they came to get their final discharge. Many thought at the time that this counted towards their credit. Some appeared to have got civilian outfits and others got nothing at all. One man who wrote to me appeared to have got £2 9s. 6d. and another assures me he got £4 9s., but certain other moneys which should have come to him were missing. Altogether the thing seems to me to be in rather a muddled state and I hope that my hon. Friend will look at this matter again in order to iron the whole thing out and do justice to these men, who, frankly think they have had a raw deal.

10.47 p.m.

I would like to associate myself with the good wishes offered to the Under-Secretary but I do wish my hon. Friend had opened with a rather better brief than I suspect he holds in his hands at the moment. There is a very widespread discontent reaching every Member of the House on the way in which these men have been dealt with by the Air Ministry. It could almost be described as a kind of cat and mouse treatment, in which the man gets the worst of both his civilian occupation and his Air Ministry enlistment. I am not too sanguine that we shall receive the satisfaction we want from the Government on this matter, but I do hope that the strongest of all representations will be made to the Secretary of State, so that it is made abundantly clear that all quarters of the House desire that this matter should be discussed at the highest possible level, the muddle cleared up and justice done.

10.48 p.m.

I would like to say a few words in support of what has been said. These men are, indeed, getting the worse of both ends of the stick. When they complain as civilians, they are told they are serving in the R.A.F. When they complain from the point of view of the Royal Air Force or talk about their rights as members of it, they are told they are civilians. For instance, some of these men are still in factories where men are becoming redundant. They go to the National Service Officer and ask if they may be released to take another job. They are told they cannot do that because they are still members of the Royal Air Force although men doing exactly the same work alongside them are allowed to obtain their release and go elsewhere. If a man says, "I live in Nottingham at present and for the past 3½ to 4 years I have been directed to work in Birmingham; may I have the same facilities as other civilians, to be considered for transfer to my home town?" he is told "You are a member of the Royal Air Force." It seems to me that whichever way they ask, they are always told that they are in the other classification. Now these men are treated as civilians and yet being in the Royal Air Force they may very well find themselves in a very low category for demobilisation. That seems to me grossly unfair from every point of view, and particularly in view of the recent statement by the Minister of Labour that he was not going to call up any more men over 30.

I cannot see how he makes the two things fit together at all. What I think really does want clarifying is: What did the Air Ministry mean when they said to these men, on asking them to volunteer, that these services which they would give in the aircraft factories would count towards their current service? What does that mean if it does not mean that it would count towards their military service and that therefore when the demobilisation scheme was produced, this service would in fact count as though they had been serving all along in the Royal Air Force?

10.51 p.m.

I should like to thank my hon. Friends for their kind references to myself. In reply I would only say that, if I can achieve the charm and devotion to duty which my predecessor achieved, I shall feel that I have deserved their good wishes. I hope that I shall never forget that the word "Minister" means after all only servant—"His Majesty's Servant," servant of the Crown and of the House and of the Service for which it is my duty to speak.

I think the House would agree, in fact it has shown by the number of Members who have spoken about this matter, that the question is a substantial one and my hon. friend, the Member for Stretford (Mr. Etherton), has really performed a service by raising it. I approach the duty of answering it in a spirit of conciliation because I think the grievance is certainly a genuine one in the sense that those who suffer under it genuinely feel themselves aggrieved and honestly believe they have been misled. Although I am afraid I must stand my ground, I recognise that a sense of injustice does exist, and although I think it is the result of an unfortunate chain of circumstances, which I do not think can be altered, at the same time I should not like it to be thought that I am regarding this as an unreasonable or foolish complaint. At the same time I think it is fair to the Ministry that I represent to say that, so far as the Air Ministry is concerned, it probably has a smaller number of persons in this category than the War Office. I do not know what the position is in the Admiralty. The class of people concerned in this particular set of facts is really very substantial indeed, but I am going to argue that so far from that being a reason why I should make a con- cession in the matter, it is precisely for that reason that the House would, on the whole, be well advised to go warily and ponder what I propose to say on the other side.

The matter arose in this way. In 1940, and at various times between 1940 and 1943, a number of instructions were issued asking for volunteers from the Air Ministry, and indeed, so I am advised, from other Service Departments for various branches of civilian industry and sometimes for Civil Defence. So far as the Air Ministry is concerned, I am advised that particular care was taken so that there was no direction or compulsion of any kind. The form of invitation, which is before me, specifically insists that those who apply must be volunteers and I am advised to deny the suggestion, which was contained in one of the letters which my hon. Friend (Mr. Etherton) read, that there was in fact a direction. Of course, any complaint would be carefully investigated and considered as an individual grievance, but the general complaint must be argued on the basis that these were volunteers. Now there responded to these various appeals from time to time a very substantial number of people. Rather more than half have returned, but there remain a number still in civilian employment. There can be no doubt that they performed a public service and that they did a good job of work. On the other hand, I think it is fair to those who remained in the Service during those months to say that they did get paid rather more highly than aircraftmen or men in the uniformed service generally, and that, on the whole, whilst they were out, and without prejudice to this question, their comrades probably regarded them as rather lucky. It is true that at the time when these invitations were issued the form of words that has since then become the bone of contention used was: to foretell the future. These words had at the time a definite meaning and were not intended to convey anything beyond it in any way. At the time when those words were uttered the period of engagement—the phrase used—meant the period of years for which the airman originally enlisted as extended from time to time by reason of the existence of the emergency in the case of regulars and in the case of other than regulars the period of the emergency. It meant nothing else. It was not at that time contemplated that the emergency would come to an end in two stages and that a large number of men would be released before the proclamation terminating the emergency was ultimately issued. In point of fact, nothing more was intended, and as I understand it, nothing more was likely to be understood, except by a man possessing second sight, than that if the emergency came to an end, or if the period of engagement in the case of regulars came to an end, a man would not be kept on longer in the uniformed Service by reason of the fact that he had volunteered for this particular public work.

What they understood was that, by reason of the fact that they volunteered to go to the Ministry of Aircraft Production, they would be no worse off than men who did not volunteer.

I appreciate that, and now that a new set of circumstances has arisen, it is quite inevitable and natural they should feel that they had been roughly treated. But I am going to explain why it is that this has happened, and I believe I can persuade the House it really was a natural course to take. The difficulty arises out of the need to fit the Government's plan of release and reallocation of manpower on to the original engagement for the emergency. The Government's scheme arises out of the fact that the war in Europe will probably terminate before the end of the emergency. It is super-imposed on the original engagement which pre-supposed a single emergency at the end of which demobilisation would take place. Looked at strictly, the Government's demobilisation scheme is a scheme for releasing men in groups prior to the termination of their actual engagement. This Government scheme, as is well known, is based on age and length of service, which has been defined strictly as meaning actual whole- time service in the Armed Forces since 3rd September, 1939, which counts for Service pay.

That is contained in the Government's White Paper on re-allocation of manpower. The difficulty would never have arisen if, at the time when the men volunteered, it had been contemplated that this two-decker or multi-decker scheme of demobilisation would be the rule. This White Paper involving principles of age and length of service has been discussed more than once, and each time the House has come back to the view after a good deal of discussion that if chaos is not to supervene the rule must be subject to as few exceptions as possible and must be interpreted strictly because the moment you begin to entertain exceptions to the fundamental principle of age-plus-length of service chaos is certain to happen as happened last time.

I should say in all humility that the questions of demobilisation and release are absolute dynamite from the point of view of Service discipline and one way, I should have thought, of ensuring some kind of explosion somewhere, would certainly be to make exceptions of this kind to the rule of age and length of service whereby men shall be able to say that Aircraftman Smith having enjoyed six months at Ministry of Aircraft Production rates of pay, in civilian clothes at his home, is going to get out six months before A or B. I am advised that the Ministry of Labour particularly tried to place these men near their homes wherever possible, but in any case one way I should have thought of ensuring an explosion in such matters as discipline would be to say that those who enjoyed these extra rates of pay should go out before, or pari passu with, those who were denied this benefit.

I do feel a very great deal of sympathy with the case of these men who seem to me to labour under a perfectly legitimate sense of injustice. But I cannot help feeling that the sense of injustice which would be raised if we took the opposite decision, would be very much more bitter very much more dangerous, and very much more well founded. I ought to say this, that the case which has been brought before us to-night is, of course, not by any means the hardest case which comes under the schemes. I cannot go into the ones that do not concern my own Ministry, but it will be within the recollection of the Members of this House, that under this War Cabinet decision, even those who volunteered for dangerous jobs in the Civil Defence have so far been excluded. It would be absolutely wrong for the Air Ministry, in a case which is not the hardest, to try to override a War Cabinet decision which has been supported by this House on more occasions than one. If the concession were made, it would be, I submit, really a revision, if not a cancellation, of age plus length of service as a principle of release from the Armed Forces at the conclusion of European hostilities.

I am aware that from one point of view the strict interpretation which is being put on the words in the promise do read rather like a lawyer's point and having made many lawyer's points in my life I do not like lawyer's points any better than the next man. But it is quite clear that if we are to avoid a very great deal of trouble at the end of this war and very bitter regrets and very bitter feelings, and incidents which all would desire to avoid, we must be fairly strict in the application of the Government's scheme for demobilisation and release or insist on the maintenance of the principle of age and length of service, and not accept a deviation from the strict letter of the law in this matter.

I cannot agree that there has been any bad faith in this matter at all. I have tried to explain to the House how easy it is to see how these men feel about it, and to sympathise with them, but I cannot accept for a moment that there has been bad faith in this matter at all. I have tried to state to the House the view of a large number of men who would be left in the service if this decision were not adhered to. There would be a better case for saying that there had been bad faith if we went back on the White Paper which has received approval more than once. I do beg the House to remember that when you are asking this to be done for Smith, you are really sentencing Jones to extra service. However you look at it, that is what you are doing. The global number of men who can be released is, at all times, governed by military and operations considerations and what my hon. Friend is asking is really that a number of unknown men shall be retained in the services very much longer than they have any right to expect.

It being half an hour after the conclusion of Business exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order ( Sittings of the House ), Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order, as modified for this Session by the Order of the House of 30 th November.

Adjourned at Five Minutes past Eleven o'Clock.