Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 410: debated on Tuesday 1 May 1945

House of Commons

Tuesday, May 1, 1945

The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]

Private Business

Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders Applicable)

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table—Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Irwell Valley Water Board) Bill.

Bill to be read a Second time Tomorrow.

Oral Answers to Questions

British Army

Voluntary Associations (B.L.A. Area)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether members of approved voluntary associations are now allowed to proceed to the area of the B.L.A. if members of the same family are already serving in that area.

I understand that the Commander-in-Chief does not wish to avail himself of the permission to which I referred in the reply I gave my hon. Friend on 23rd January.

Is there any hope that, with the changed war situation, the Commander-in-Chief will relax his ban on wives proceeding to the B.L.A. area?

Yes, Sir; I am quite sure that as soon as the fighting stops the Commander-in-Chief will relax his ban.

Ex-Prisoners-of-War (Promotion)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether regular officers who have escaped or been released from prisoner-of-war camps and temporarily graded a low medical category as a result of their privations are being delayed in receiving promotion in substantive rank.

In the case of a time promotion, an officer is promoted as soon as he completes the necessary qualifying service, even if he is in low medical category, so long as he is employable; if he is in an unemployable category temporarily, his promotion is held up until he becomes employable, and is then ante-dated. In the case of a promotion by selection (that is to lieutenant-colonel and above) the officer's medical grading cannot be ignored and it may affect his selection.

S.E.A.C. (Python Scheme)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the repatriation of members of the S.E.A.C. Forces who are in or near the front line is frequently delayed beyond the repatriation period; and whether he will arrange that, as far as is possible, all officers and men in this area shall be sent back to their holding centres after a maximum of three years and six months service in India and Burma, to enable them to be re-equipped and ready to leave immediately their repatriation period is due.

The needs of the fighting fronts are of course paramount, but I have every reason to believe that everything possible is already being done to prevent under or avoidable delay in repatriating men under the Python scheme.

Overseas Service (Leave)

asked the Secretary of State for War what number of days' leave is now granted to a soldier on leave from the Middle East before returning to the Middle East or on transfer to the B.L.A.

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply I gave a number of hon. Members on 10th April.

Higher Age-Groups (Retention)

asked the Secretary if State for War the reasons for retaining men over 40 years of age in the Army at a time when men over 30 years of age are not being called up.

The Army needs all the trained men it has, regardless of their age, and only in exceptional individual cases can any be released until military commitments are reduced.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether he expects that men over 30 will be required for the war against Japan?

I cannot answer that question until events show themselves more clearly. The central fact of this situation is that men called up now will not be available for six months' time, when it is to be hoped that the requirements will be very different from what they are to-day.

Home Guard (Celebrations)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the encouragement by his Department and Territorial Associations of the celebration of 13th May as Home Guard Sunday, he will give general authority for all Home Guards on the strength of the Force at stand-down to wear uniforms on that day when attending parades, reunions and services of commemoration.

As the Home Guard has been stood down no general celebrations have been arranged for 13th May. But the force has not been disbanded, and members may therefore attend local services and reunions in uniform.

Requisitioned Houses, Chertsey

asked the Secretary of State for War what steps are being taken to keep in a proper state of preservation houses in the Chertsey division of Surrey that have been requisitioned by His Department and are unoccupied.

Four houses have recently been unoccupied in the Chertsey area apart from a block of accommodation which is being progressively occupied by an incoming unit. I understand that one of them has now been released and two occupied. Empty houses are inspected by the local military authorities about once a week, and such maintenance work as is necessary is carried out, provided labour is available.

In view of the fact that these houses are not being kept in a proper state of repair, will my right hon. Friend make a further effort to see that they are placed in a fit condition to be occupied when their proper owners return?

The purport of my answer was that, provided labour is available, we try to keep them up, but in any case when they are de-requisitioned we are under obligation to pay compensation for dilapidations.

In addition to compensation, could we have some priority in having them made fit for occupation? Compensation is not enough.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that compensation, in itself, does not make a house ready for occupation?

Yes, that has been brought to my notice on a number of occasions in the last few months.

Infantry (Order of Precedence)

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will recommend His Majesty to give first place in the order of precedence to the infantry as a recognition of the outstanding skill, courage and endurance displayed by this branch of the Service; and whether he will direct that in all official documents and correspondence in his Department "infantry" should be spelt with a capital I.

No one in or connected with the Army would wish to belittle the magnificent qualities and services of the infantry, but I think it would be preferable to postpone consideration of questions involving the relative precedence between arms and corps until after the war. Instructions were issued in the War Office in February that when the term "Infantry" is used to denote that specific arm of the Service, it will be spelt with a capital letter.

Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for that answer, may I ask whether, as the war with Japan will be fought mainly with infantry, it would not be an encouragement if the matter of precedence were gone into before that other campaign is enlarged?

I honestly think—and I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will agree—that it is better to consider these things for the post-war period, and not in the intervening stages between two wars. I do not think—and here again I think I shall command general assent—that the infantry have any idea now that their services and their capacities are belittled.

Will my right hon. Friend realise that there will be a good deal of opposition to the suggestion put forward in this question?

I had gathered that, even before my hon. and gallant Friend had reminded me of it.

Will my right hon. Friend consider giving a practical demonstration of the value of the infantry, by seeing that the skilled infantry men get trade pay?

I answered a Question on that very subject only about a fortnight ago. I think it is a matter to be seriously considered in relation to the settlement of the post-war pay system of the Army.

I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest date.

Does my right hon. Friend think that anybody in the infantry cares a "twopenny dam" about this precedence?

Private Soldier (Place of Burial)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will, in consultation with the Secretary of State for the Home Department, arrange for exhumation of the body buried at Darwen cemetery and alleged by his Department to be that of the late 3386087 Private Alan Marshall, and for exhumation of the body buried at Tournai Bridge, Belgium, and alleged by some comrades of the late Private Marshall to be his body, and thereby ascertain the correct place of burial and relieve the present distress of the mother.

From the evidence available there is little, if any, doubt that Private Marshall is buried in Darwen cemetery. My hon. and gallant Friend's request is, however, being considered, and I will communicate with him further.

While expressing thanks to my right hon. Friend for the sympathetic manner in which he has met my request, may I ask him whether it is not a fact that a study of the documents shows that far from this matter being established beyond any reasonable doubt a mistake might have been made?

I think it is a balance between "reasonable probability" and "beyond all reasonable doubt." On the evidence as I have read it, I think there is reasonable probability that the facts are as I have stated. If my hon. and gallant Friend asks me to say, "beyond all reasonable doubt," I must reply that I am not prepared to go as far as that, otherwise I would not make any further inquiries.

Is it not a fact that many witnesses in this case are scattered throughout the world, so that it is impossible to instigate the fullest inquiry?

The impression left on my mind from reading the documents is that careful inquiry has been made and that a great deal of testimony has been taken.

Mails, India

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will take further steps to improve the delivery of mail to those serving in the Indian theatre of war so as to allay the anxiety felt by parents and relatives at home.

Since the first week in February all letters have been sent to troops in India by air. They take about seven days to reach the unit from this country. I do not think it is very likely that we shall be able to improve on this.

Overseas Personnel (Repatriation)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that there is a considerable body of troops, most of whom have been abroad for more than four years, encamped in a place of which he has been informed; and, as these men appear to be doing very little, why are they not being brought home.

Inquiries are being made, but I shall be very surprised if these troops are not fulfilling some essential purpose.

Victoria Cross (Posthumous Award, Money Grant)

asked the Secretary of State for War if the widow of the late James Stokes of the Shropshire Light Infantry, who was recently posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross is to receive the yearly grant of £50; and if this soldier's son is eligible for any special grant by reason of his father having won the Victoria Cross.

In an answer he gave my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Rear-Admiral Beamish) on 27th February the Prime Minister announced that in future £50 would be credited to the estate of a man to whom the Victoria Cross has been awarded posthumously. This has been done in the case referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend.

Leave Prospects

asked the Secretary of State for War to what extent he estimates it will be possible, on the conclusion of hostilities on the Continent or the conquest of Germany, to increase the frequency and extent of leave pending and during progressive demobilisation.

I am anxious not to raise hopes until I am certain that they can be fulfilled. I must, therefore, await events before attempting to give a specific answer to this Question.

Can we take it that when hostilities have actually ceased on the Continent, there will be more frequent leave?

The hon. Member must take it that at present I am not able to make any specific promise.

South African War Veterans (Assistance)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that there is a number of South African war veterans living in a state of impecuniosity; whether all the funds which were collected to provide for the soldiers and sailors and dependants have been exhausted; and, if not, what funds are still in existence.

I have been asked to reply. The money collected by public subscription is now being administered by the various charities to whom it was allocated. But if my hon. Friend will send me particulars of the men to whom his Question refers I will bring them to the notice of the organisations concerned.

Is it possible to state what is the amount still held in these funds?

I would like to have notice of that question. I do not believe it is a matter on which I have any information, but if my hon. Friend will put down a question I will see if I have any.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a very widespread feeling that there is a large sum of money in the hands of certain of these societies which has not been used, and to allay that feeling could he have a statement issued, either by his Department or by the Department responsible, on the subject?

That is a different question. The funds certainly are not officially controlled. Various hon. Members have from time to time raised questions in the House about the number of South African war veterans who are destitute. I have asked them to send particulars of individual cases so that I could investigate them, but I have never received any.

German Prisoners of War

Transport

asked the Secretary of State for War why, when on 17th April 500 to 600 German prisoners of war were detrained at a town, of which he has been informed, omnibuses and lorries were provided to drive them to their camp, which is only one mile distant from the station; and whether he is aware of the indignation this has caused in the town.

The prisoners were taken by lorry as it was considered inadvisable to march them through the town at a busy time of the day, but instructions have been issued that transport should not be provided in such circumstances in future.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the district, of which he has been informed, has suffered very severely from enemy damage during the last 12 months? Is he further aware that nothing would have given greater delight to the inhabitants of the anonymous town than to have seen these men marched through the streets to their prison?

There was always a possibility that the delight of the anonymous town referred to might have taken the form of contumely and, under the Geneva Convention, the detaining Power is under obligation to protect prisoners against contumely.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that could not have happened in the case of my constituents?

asked the Secretary of State for War if in future when German prisoners of war are being moved from one place to another he will arrange for them to march or be conveyed in guards' or other closed vans and not in passenger coaches depriving British travellers of seats and necessitating their standing in the corridors.

No, Sir. If the prisoners are moved by rail, less British troops for guarding and administering the prisoners are needed than if they are marched. It is also more difficult to guard prisoners in vans, and for this, and technical railway reasons, passenger coaches are used.

Does my right hon. Friend think it is satisfactory that women and children should stand in crowded corridors while German prisoners loll luxuriously in seats?

It is extremely easy to make that case, because it has an appeal to popular feeling. I am not an expert railway man, but I am assured that if prisoners are put into closed vans, as my hon. Friend suggests, fewer coaches would be included in the train. This would, therefore, mean that fewer passengers could be carried.

Rations

asked the Secretary of State for War if, while retaining the amount of calories in the food given to German prisoners of war and civilian internees which is required by the Geneva Convention, he will see that the rations are composed of food which is least required and least appreciated by the civilian population.

I have nothing at present to add to the reply I gave a number of hon. Members on Tuesday last, except to repeat that non-working prisoners do not get more of the nationally rationed foods than civilians.

Questions

German Prison Camp, Nordhausen

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will make any statement on the conditions at the prison camp at Nordhausen in Germany.

So far as I am aware no prisoners from the British Commonwealth were detained in this camp.

British Prisoners of War

Treatment

asked the Secretary of State for War what are the rations actually supplied by the Germans to British prisoners of war in the main camps in Germany.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has any evidence regarding the observance or otherwise of the Geneva Convention by German military authorities so far as our prisoners of war are concerned; and whether the Protecting Power is still conversant with the conduct of prisoners-of-war camps in Germany.

asked the Secretary of State for War, in order to allay anxiety among relatives of British prisoners of war in Germany, whether he will make a statement respecting their general condition and treatment; what percentage of liberated prisoners of war complain of ill-treatment; whether the food situation and conditions have greatly deteriorated in recent weeks; and whether records are being compiled both of the harsh and brutal and of the humane and considerate German officials in charge of British prisoners.

All ex-prisoners on reaching this country complete a questionnaire which enables them to give information about the treatment they have received. They are returning in large numbers daily and it will not be possible to collate the information derived from their reports for some time. Numerous representations have had to be made to the Germans during the course of the war about breaches of one or other of the articles of the Geneva Convention. I gave particulars of the food given to our prisoners by the Germans in a reply I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Touche) on 2nd March. Information received recently suggests that even these rations have been reduced since then. But owing to the disintegration of the German administration and transport system during recent weeks, and the large scale compulsory transfers of our prisoners of war, it is impossible to make any statement of general application at present.

Sapper A. B. Alexander (Shooting)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has now received reports concerning a deceased soldier named Alexander, of Wentworth Road, Doncaster, a prisoner of war who was shot in the back and killed by a German guard who was sentenced to six months' detention but later released by the Gestapo; and whether he will collect evidence from returned prisoners who are acquainted with the circumstances of this soldier's death and, if evidence of guilt is forthcoming, have the name of the Nazi guard added to the list of war criminals.

I assume that my hon. Friend refers to the case of Sapper A. B. Alexander, who was shot by a German guard at Stalag XXI D in May, 1942. I am circulating a statement about this in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

While I anticipated some of the information which the right hon. Gentleman gave me, may I ask him why he cannot interrogate or interview some of these returned prisoners, who feel infuriated about the way this man met his death?

The hon. Member will find that I have dealt with that in my answer, and if he will read it, and still wants to ask further questions, it will be open to him to do so.

I am anxious to see that those responsible are brought to justice.

Following is the statement:

This case was taken up with the German Government through the Protecting Power. Their reply alleged that Sapper Alexander had attacked a guard, who had shot him while acting in self-defence, and that an inquiry was to be opened. As no report of this inquiry was received a further note was sent to the German Government insisting that a full inquiry should be held into the circumstances of death of Sapper Alexander, at which British witnesses should be present. This note stated that His Majesty's Government reserved all rights in connection with this case.

In the answer the German authorities reiterated their former assertion that the German guard had shot Sapper Alexander whilst acting in self-defence and alleged that the facts were based on the evidence of the guard in question and of British witnesses. No names of any witnesses were, however, given. I have no information that the guard responsible for Sapper Alexander's death was punished for his action. All repatriated prisoners of war are requested on their recovery from captivity to set out the details of any crimes committed against fellow prisoners of war of which they have knowledge, and although I have, as yet, no information concerning the death of Sapper Alexander from these sources, if information is received indicating that he was murdered all possible steps will be taken to find the German guard responsible for this soldier's death, and to bring him to justice.

Movement and Liberation

asked the Secretary of State for War if he can give any further information regarding the movement of prisoners-of-war camps in Germany or the liberation of prisoners in these camps.

The Protecting Power has informed us that the German Government state all transfers of prisoners have ceased in areas still under German control. The prisoners have been collected as far as possible in large Stalags and the German Government has asked the International Red Cross Committee and the Protecting Power to send representatives to these camps. When the German military authorities withdrew, these representatives will remain in charge of the camps until the Allies arrive. The advancing Allied Armies continue meanwhile to liberate large numbers of our prisoners. Forty-three thousand prisoners from the British Commonwealth have so far arrived in this country from North-West Europe and further large numbers are likely to have been recovered recently by the Red Army in the neighbourhood of Berlin and Dresden and by the American Armies on their way to Munich and the Austrian frontier.

Has my right hon. Friend any information regarding Oflag VIIB, in Bavaria?

I am certain that I gave some information in regard to that camp a week ago. If my hon. and gallant Friend will refer to that answer, and still wants to ask further questions, perhaps he will be good enough to put them on the Order Paper?

Is it likely that food supplies will reach there by road, in the ordinary way, or will it be necessary to send them by air?

The obligation on the Germans is to leave behind in the camps food for the troops. It may not always happen that way, but I do not imagine that the Germans will disappear from control of the camps long before the Allies are expected to arrive.

Does the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's answer mean that the Government are doing the best possible for our men under the circumstances?

As it was an offer which was accepted by the four main Allied Governments, I think the hon. Member must assume that we think it is the best they can do.

Scotland

Housing

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he can make any statement as to progress in the provision of permanent housing in Scotland; and what further progress has been made in the provision of temporary housing.

A total of 36,000 permanent houses have been completed during the war and 3,625 are now under construction. Local authorities generally have been asked to submit proposals for additional houses, and building will now be authorised on an increasing scale as labour becomes available. For this purpose sites have been approved for 102,400 houses and servicing has been completed or is in progress for about 14,000 houses. 34,400 temporary houses have been allocated to local authorities and sites for 18,900 out of the 20,000 forming the 1945 programme have been approved. Sites have been serviced or are being serviced for 4,700; foundation work is in hand for 926; construction, recently begun, is in progress on 36 houses.

Rates

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will publish a return showing how the rates levied in Scotland in the last two rating years compare with those levied before the war.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is prepared to issue a statement on the subject of rating burdens in Scotland.

I hope to publish at an early date a return showing for each rating authority's area the rates levied in 1938–39, 1943–44 and 1944–45.

Requisitioned Schools (Release)

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether all schools in Scotland used for war purposes have now been derequisitioned.

No, Sir. But the priority of release of requisitioned accommodation is being urgently reviewed, in the light of the war situation, and arrangements are now being made for the release of the schools most urgently required for educational purposes.

I think the number of schools in Scotland still wholly occupied for non-educational purposes is 35. There are some that are partly occupied.

Questions

Local Rolls of Honour (Compilation)

asked the Prime Minister if he will give instructions that the Service Departments should give help to counties, cities, boroughs and other local areas in the compilation of rolls of honour.

The records of casualties are not kept by Departments in a form that would enable them to furnish the various local authorities with lists of the fallen who come from their respective areas.

German Garrisons (Warnings)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will have warnings broadcast to Germans in pockets in the Channel Islands, in France and in Holland, of the punishment that will be meted out to those of them who deliberately starve or otherwise maltreat British or Allied subjects.

The Germans in the areas concerned are already well aware, as a result of repeated broadcasts, that anyone who deliberately starves or otherwise maltreats British or Allied subjects, will be held personally responsible.

Will the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the form of his answer and in view of the answer that he gave me recently, make it clear that it applies to maltreatment of anyone, and not merely of Allied subjects?

How long will it be before they are all cleared out of the Channel Islands?

Armed Forces (Good Service Certificates)

asked the Prime Minister if he will consider the granting of a ribbon or medal which can be worn to members of His Majesty's Forces who have been awarded the Commander-in-Chief's certificate for good service and devotion to duty.

Liberated Polish Prisoners (Repatriation)

asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that owing to the delay in forming a democratic Government in Poland, many thousands of liberated Polish prisoners, both civil and military, cannot return to Poland without fear of reprisal; and whether he will take steps, in conjunction with the U.S.A. authorities in Germany, to ensure that no liberated Polish prisoners are repatriated against their will.

The large numbers of Polish prisoners liberated by the advance of the Allied Armies are being given shelter and maintenance under the authority of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief at various centres set up for their reception. They will continue to be cared for in this way so long as conditions make it impracticable or undesirable for them to be repatriated or otherwise provided for. The matter is one for inter-Allied discussion, but I cannot conceive that Poles in danger of reprisals would be sent back to Poland against their will. I trust however that the conditions which will be created in Poland as the result of the inevitable further discussion on this subject between the Great Allies will be such that the numbers failing to return to their native land may be very few.

Would it not be desirable that all those who have influence in this country should use it towards the end of getting conditions in Poland and a Government in Poland which would allow most of these people to return?

Parliamentary Candidates (Service Postings)

asked the Prime Minister what orders have been issued in relation to the posting of persons in the Services who have been adopted as prospective Parliamentary candidates.

Subject to overriding military objections on operational grounds, bona fide adopted Parliamentary candidates of all parties are being given forthwith an opportunity to return to the United Kingdom as soon as possible for reversion to the Home Establishment. They may then obtain temporary release if they so desire for the purpose of fighting an election. These arrangements also apply to serving M.P.'s who are being informed of their existing rights.

Are we to understand that any scallywag in the Services who calls himself an independent candidate is to be released?

I am glad to see these signs of repentance. I introduced the words "bona fide" because, after all, a man cannot just say, "I wish to come home because I am going to be a candidate." He must have what would be considered reasonable credentials that he is supported in a constituency. That is a matter which will be dealt with, as I hope all our troubles in this sphere will be dealt with, by free discussion between the leaders of the established parties.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept the epithet of "scallywag" which the hon. Member applied to men in the Services? Does he agree that there are scallywags fighting for the country?

I was not aware that the hon. Member applied it to the people in the Services, who number many millions. He might have been speaking of people who would call themselves independent candidates but who would not have any backing which a reasonable body of men would consider bona fide.

The expression "bona fide," which is a very reasonable and well-understood expression in these islands, was intended to prevent vast numbers of persons indulging in that particular form of adventure.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that men serving overseas who are anxious to be adopted for a constituency find difficulty whilst they are overseas in making the necessary contacts to secure nomination? Would he consider whether at this stage of the war it is not possible to grant facilities in such cases?

It would not be possible to give a blank cheque to everyone who said he would like to go home to fight a constituency but every effort is being made to give opportunities of contact with constituencies to those who are desired by parties in constituencies, or even by powerful groups in constituencies, to get back in good time not only to fight an election but to make themselves known, which, in country districts with large numbers of villages, is a process requiring a certain amount of time. This, I think, is fair to officers and soldiers—because many soldiers wish to stand as candidates—and also conforms to our general standards.

Is not the position that any man who can produce evidence of a genuine invitation by responsible people can get back?

Yes, certainly, subject to proper weight being assigned to the word "genuine" and the word "responsible."

National Finance

War Damage Payments

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer in what class of undertakings, other than brickworks, the Treasury has refused to designate a Government Department to deal with applications for advance payments under Subsection (3 b ) of Section 70 of the War Damage Act, 1943.

None, Sir. In the only other case in which the question of designation has arisen, the circumstances pointed clearly to the need for assistance in the public interest.

Temporary Crown Servants (Taxation)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is yet in a position to indicate what arrangements will be made to implement his promise of 17th February, 1944, regarding temporary Crown servants who have incurred an overlapping tax payment and have lost the tax holiday to which they were entitled to look forward.

I am afraid that I cannot add to the answer which I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Mr. Parker) on 10th April, when I said that I hoped to make a statement in the near future.

Excess Profits Tax Relief (Farmers)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the promised concession to small businesses applies to farmers.

Yes, Sir. The proposed relief will apply in all cases where the Excess Profits Tax standard is less than £12,000.

Civil Servants' Superannuation (Dependants)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will introduce amendments to the Superannuation Acts to ensure that the widows and dependants of civil servants, including the foreign service, are suitably provided for in the event of the death of an officer while serving or after retirement.

My hon. Friend is, I am sure, aware that certain provision is made already under the Superannuation Acts, as set out in the reply I gave to my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Sir M. Robertson) on 17th April. I had not contemplated any extension of the provision so made apart from changes that may result from the introduction of a comprehensive national insurance scheme.

Is not the Chancellor aware that there have been many distressing cases of very high officials in the Foreign Service, including Ambassadors, leaving their widows in extremely straitened circumstances, and that some of them have had to be subsidised out of the Civil List? Does he regard that as a satisfactory situation?

I do not doubt that distressing cases occur in all walks of life. I am not at all sure they could be averted by any provision it might be possible to make under the Superannuation Acts, but as my hon. Friend knows, there are channels through which representations on this subject can be made. I am always ready to listen.

Coal Industry

German Prisoner-of-War Labour

57 and 58.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power (1) if, in order to increase the output of coal and to conserve the assets of British coalmines, he is considering utilising German labour in uneconomic coalmines, in view of the fact that while the Germans would be adequately supplied with food and housing they would not be paid wages, thus making it possible to mine coal without that loss which would be incurred if the normal wages were paid to British miners and at the same time causing no unemployment to British miners;

(2) if consideration is being given to the employment of Germans in British coalmines in order that the supply of coal may be improved.

The further employment of Germans in this country is receiving the consideration of the Government.

Prices

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power how many increases in the price of coal have been authorised since the outbreak of war; and what were the actual amounts in each case.

Apart from the increase of 3s. 6d. per ton which operates from to-day the information which the hon. Member requires is contained in the White Paper published on 18th April, regarding the Coal Charges Account (Cmd. 6617), to which I would refer him.

Although the Minister stated the other day that a large amount of this increase is due to wages costs, is it not fairly true and obvious that most of the trouble is caused through bad organisation in the industry?

Cannot the right hon. and gallant Gentleman furnish the information for which my hon. Friend asks without reference to the White Paper? Can he say how many increases in the price of domestic coal have taken place since the beginning of the war?

If I take the trouble of going into the finance of the coal industry in some detail, I think I am entitled to expect hon. Members to look at that information.

Is there any special reason why the Minister dislikes giving information to the House? Why is he afraid to give information if he has it on the paper before him?

Not only am I not afraid to give it, but I have given it in full detail to every hon. Member who wishes to read it and to every newspaper in the country.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what is the average pit-head price of coal and the price of coal to domestic consumers in London for the years 1938 and 1945, respectively.

The average pit-head price of Derby Brights, a typical household coal, was approximately 23s. in 1938 and to-day it is 42s. 5d. The average retail price of this coal supplied to domestic consumers in London in 1938 was 51s. 6d. and to-day is 77s. 9d.

Are we to understand that the statement made by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the other day, when he announced that the increase in the price of coal was attributable to high wages, is accurate? Is not a large part of it attributable, first of all, to defective organisation in the mining industry and to costs other than wages which he has not specified in his announcement?

What I said last week was that the greater part of the increase is due to the increase in wages. In regard to the question of organisation, here again I recommend the hon. Gentleman to look at the Report I published.

What steps is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman taking to reduce the enormous disparity between the pithead price and the price to the consumer?

That is a question that I do not object to. That is part and parcel of the whole question of re-organisation The increase in the retail price is only 50 per cent., which is considerably less than the increase in the pithead price.

Are not these prices in any case largely fictitious, as a large amount of the stuff that is being sold under the name of coal would never formerly have been honoured by that name?

Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman indicate to the country that a very large proportion of the price that they pay for the coal does not reach the miner at all but goes to middlemen?

Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman repeat the price of coal in London?

Group Production Directors

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what is the number of group production directors now employed by the regional controllers in each region; the annual cost of their salaries and allowances; and if he is satisfied that their appointment has been justified by the results.

As the first part of the answer involves a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. As regards the last part of the Question, my hon. Friend will appreciate that it is not easy, in the circumstances prevailing in wartime, to assess accurately the value of the work of group production directors. I feel, however, that the appointment of expert mining engineers to undertake responsibilities in regard to pits other than their own will be justified by experience.

Following is the information:

The number of group production directors at present employed under my Ministry in the various regions, and the annual cost of their salaries is as follows:

Questions

Electricity Supplies (Norfolk)

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware that 46 villages in the South-West Norfolk Parliamentary Division are without an electricity supply at present and that only 37 of these are provided for in the postwar development schemes of the East Anglian Electric Supply Company; and will he institute an immediate inquiry into the position of electricity supplies in South-West Norfolk with a view to supplying all these 46 villages with electricity in the shortest possible time.

As my hon. Friend will be aware, it has been necessary during the war to restrict electricity development because of the shortages of man-power and material. Such restrictions cannot yet be relaxed. The postwar development schemes of the East Anglian Electric Supply Company will result in supplies being available in 85 of 94 villages and hamlets in that part of my hon. Friend's constituency which is in the area of supply of that Company. Limited supplies are already being given in most of the remaining nine places. In view of these facts I do not consider it necessary to institute any inquiry.

Can my right hon. and gallant Friend give any indication how soon after the war these 46 villages may expect to get this supply? Will it be a matter of years or of months?

If my hon. Friend will read the answer, he will find that in the case of 85 out of 94 it will be very shortly after the war. The Company have prepared a very big scheme of development and as soon as they are able to do so, I am sure they will proceed with energy.

Petrol Allowance (Service Leave)

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether a decision has yet been arrived at regarding the proposal that the full annual petrol entitlement of 600 miles should be granted in one leave period to personnel whose leave in the United Kingdom extends over a period of 28 days or more.

In conjunction with my right hon. Friends, the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Secretaries of State for War and Air, I am considering whether in present circumstances any, and, if so, what modifications can be made in the Active Service Leave Allowance.

Trade and Commerce

Liberated Countries (Clothing Supplies)

asked the President of the Board of Trade what supplies of clothing have been, or are being, sent to liberated countries; what are the means of distribution; and whether extra coupons can be issued under suitable safeguards to relatives in the United Kingdom of British subjects in such liberated countries in order to enable them to send special supplies of clothing direct.

The bulk of the clothing which has so far been sent from this country to liberated areas has been required for distribution by the Allied Commanders during the period of military control. Small quantities of clothing have also been made available to U.N.R.R.A. and to the Governments of certain liberated countries, who are responsible for its distribution. I have recently announced arrangements for the dispatch of parcels, containing clothing and other articles, through the British Red Cross to British subjects in liberated countries, but I regret that I cannot see my way to issue extra coupons for this purpose.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the British Red Cross only distribute parcels to whomever they can get in contact with and to persons whom they think suitable? Would not my right hon. Friend consider again the suggestion in the Question so that persons can send parcels, for instance, to relatives in France who badly need them?

I am anxious to arrange that and to use the Red Cross as the channel for bringing together those individuals. So far, that seems to be the best arrangement.

Will my right hon. Friend make it possible for an individual to send a parcel direct through the Red Cross?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that trade papers are emphasising the pronounced shortage of suit lengths for our own civilians, and are accusing the Board of Trade of causing this shortage by showing sloppy sentiment in supplying suits to liberated countries. Will the right hon. Gentleman challenge or repudiate these statements?

I said in my answer that very small quantities indeed of clothing have been sent abroad under any conditions.

The right hon. Gentleman should see for himself what the trade papers are saying about him.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that a little more of that sloppy sentiment would be appreciated in France and Belgium?

Victory Flags and Emblems (Prices)

asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to prevent profiteering in flags and other patriotic emblems likely to be in demand for victory celebrations.

I have had this matter examined by the Central Price Regulation Committee, who are of the opinion, which I share, that it is not possible to devise any really effective and enforceable scheme for controlling these prices.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that grossly excessive prices are already being charged? Is it not possible to check these profiteers from cashing in on patriotic emotion at a moment when the public are least likely to be on their guard?

A lot of little flags will be sold by kerbside vendors, and it is impossible, unless I am to get the whole Army demobilised for employment as inspectors, to deal with them.

Cigars (Importation)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will now allow the importation of cigars from non-sterling countries, in view of the fact that the Treasury are desirous of obtaining the revenue from the large amount of duty which would result from their importation, and are prepared to allow the necessary exchange for that purpose.

No, Sir; and I understand that there is no foundation for the suggestion that the Treasury would be prepared to release foreign exchange for this purpose.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that as recently as last February the Chancellor stated in the House that he would not be opposed to this procedure?

No, Sir; the Chancellor and I have been in touch on this matter, and my hon. Friend has not fully understood what has been said to him from time to time. I would advise him to try smoking a Jamaica cigar.

Tartan Materials

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that nearly all the tartan material at present in stock or being made is reserved for export so that no supplies are available for the manufacture of the kilt for Scottish children; and, in view of the economical nature and good wearing quality of this garment, will be take steps to see that adequate stocks of tartan are kept in Scotland for this form of clothing.

No, Sir. It is not the case that tartan materials are reserved for export. Tartan materials can be supplied in many of the utility specifications and also in the non-utility range. If my hon. and gallant Friend will let me have details of any shortage, I shall be glad to look into the matter.

Furniture Manufacture, Scotland

asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been drawn to the furniture produced by a group of reputable firms in Scotland, equal in quality to the utility furniture and considerably cheaper; and, as it has been produced without lowering the standard of cutting the wages, will he take steps to have the furniture examined with a view to placing this furniture on the market.

I have just received a booklet containing specifications of this furniture and I have referred it to the Committee which advises me on utility furniture.

Upholstery Supplies (Letter)

asked the President of the Board of Trade when he proposes to answer the letter of the hon. Member for North Kensington, dated 20th January, in which he conveyed the complaint of one of his constituents regarding the difficulties of obtaining upholstery for the repair of bombed-out persons' furniture.

I have now answered the letter to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers. I much regret the inconvenience which this delay has caused him, and I have admonished the official who was responsible.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the complainant in this case was a leading local Communist? Is this treatment of Communists likely to encourage a united Left front?

Retail Licence, Hereford

asked the President of the Board of Trade why a retail licence was granted to Messrs. Willsons, Limited, Eign Street, Hereford, to sell goods in categories 1 and 2 of the Schedule covered by the Location of Retail Business Order, 1942, S.R. & O., No. 1619, when they purchased a shop which had previously sold goods in categories 10 and 11 of the above Order; and if he is aware that great resentment has been felt in the town at the granting of this licence to a new multiple shop selling women's wear when the business previously carried on in the premises purchased was concerned with men's wear.

This company acquired the goodwill of a business which had sold both women's and men's outerwear. They were accordingly quite properly granted a licence by the local price regulation committee covering categories 1 and 2 as well as categories 10 and 11.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the sale of one item of women's clothing was a negligible fraction of the total turnover?

There seems to be a conflict of evidence in this case. The local committee went into it carefully, and I do not think that I could disturb their decision.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the local chamber of commerce are very annoyed and distressed at the granting of this licence?

Utility and Free Cloth (Proportions)

asked the President of the Board of Trade why his Department has decided to put a stop to all further manufacturing of non-austerity or free cloth; and whether in view of the hardship which such a step will cause to bespoke tailors he will have the decision altered.

My hon. Friend is misinformed. The proportions of utility and non-utility cloths authorised for manufacture have not been varied for about two years and non-utility or "free" cloth is still being made in substantial quantities.

Is my hon. Friend in a position, in view of the widespread anxiety which exists among bespoke tailors lest they should not be able to get sufficient supplies, to give an assurance that, as far as practicable, he will endeavour to meet their reasonable wants?

Certainly, Sir. There has been misunderstanding about this, based upon an inaccurate statement that has gained wide currency. I hope that my answer will correct it.

Factory Site, Corsham

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will permit some civilian industry to commence operations on a site in the neighbourhood of Corsham, of which he has been informed.

I understand from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour that sufficient vacancies are likely to be available to absorb the workers released from the Government factory at Corsham, either in Corsham, its neighbourhood or elsewhere.

If this should not prove to be the case, will my right hon. Friend allow some civilian industries to be established there? Otherwise we shall be a new distressed area.

I am not preventing the establishment of any civilian industry there, but I do not think there will be a case for starting up a new industry in this vicinity in view of what I have told my hon. Friend. I shall be glad to watch developments and perhaps my hon. Friend will keep in touch with me.

Questions

Transport Vehicles (Size)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he has yet been able to give consideration to the case of the manufacturers of transport vehicles with regard to the increased possibility of export trade in such vehicles, if an eight feet maximum width were permitted to replace the present seven feet six inches; and whether, at an early date, he will call a conference of all concerned in order to reach a satisfactory settlement in this matter.

Yes, Sir, I have twice received a deputation of representatives of the manufacturers and operators of transport vehicles, who laid before me the arguments in favour of allowing an increase to eight feet in the width of such vehicles. On both occasions the probable effect of a change to eight feet on the prospects of the export trade in transport vehicles was fully discussed.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the tremendous importance of this question of the width of these vehicles from the point of view of export trade after the war?

I am bound to say that the result of these discussions convinced me that it was rather less important than I thought when I began.

Does the hon. Gentleman not realise that those who attended the deputation were profoundly dissatisfied with the policy that the Government explained to them?

That may be so, but perhaps I may say that their arguments failed to convince the Government

Will the Parliamentary Secretary cause a public inquiry to be held into this matter? Is he afraid of something about it?

We have already debated it in the House of Commons, which shows we are not afraid of publicity. I am always ready to debate it again, but the responsibility is that of my Noble Friend who must make the decision.

Air-Raid Shelters (Disposal)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any instructions are to be issued to local authorities in the near future regarding the disposal of air-raid shelters.

I have been asked to reply. Yes, Sir. A circular will be sent to all local authorities very shortly.

Building Repairs Limit

asked the Minister of Works whether he is aware that the £10 limit for house repairs will so restrict the business of thousands of small and medium building firms that they will be unable to implement their legal obligations to their men on demobilisation under the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act; and what steps does he propose taking to end this restriction.

My hon. Friend is evidently under a misapprehension as to the nature and purpose of the arrangements for the licensing of civil building. My right hon. Friend proposes very shortly to make an announcement concerning the details of these arrangements.

Am I to understand that the £10 limit will shortly be withdrawn; and does the hon. Gentleman realise the state of frustration that the policy of the Government has imposed on the building industry?

My hon. Friend will realise that the £10 limit does not apply to licensed building work. It is the amount of building work which can be done without a licence.

May I ask how the hon. Gentleman would deal with the case of a house full of vermin, which had to be deloused at a cost of £10 or £15?

Business of the House (War Situation)

May I ask the Prime Minister two questions of which I have given him private notice? I will ask first the question that is of internal interest to the House, namely, whether he has any statement to make on Business this week; and secondly, if he has any statement to make about the war position in Europe?

I have no special statement to make about the war position in Europe, except that it is definitely more satisfactory than it was this time five years ago. Should information of importance reach His Majesty's Government during the four days of our Sittings this week, as it might do, I will follow precedents which have occurred in this war, and ask Mr. Speaker's permission to ask the indulgence of the House to interrupt Business and make a brief announcement. But that would only occur if, as I say, information of exceptional importance reached us. With regard to the conditions and regulations which would occur if an announcement of decisive consequence justifying celebrations were to be made this week, or at any time in the future, and if what is called VE-Day—Victory in Europe Day—were announced, a number of arrangements have been prepared and will be issued to-night in a Home Office circular, but this is only making reasonable preparations to prevent inconvenience and giving general guidance to the local authorities, as well as to the public, as to the sort of proceedings which would be regarded as not undesirable.

In regard to the question about Business, in view of the representations made to me last Thursday, the Government have decided to devote the whole of Friday's Sitting to the Second Reading of the Forestry Bill and the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution. We shall not resume the Committee stage of the Income Tax Bill on Friday as previously announced. If, however, the Requisitioned Land Bill is completed tomorrow or on Thursday at a reasonable hour, we hope that the House will agree to make further progress with the Income Tax Bill.

While appreciating that my right hon. Friend can say little of substance to-day, may I put this to him? When a major decision has been taken, may the House understand that it will be a decision taken with the advice of General Eisenhower and that it will imply an immediate liberation of the terri- tories still in German hands—some of them British territories—or are we to assume that the declaration, when it is made, will be confined merely to a statement of capitulation, without the release of the territories now in German occupation?

I do not know in what form any message will reach us, or whether it will reach us in a form justifying disturbing the House in its Debates, but should such a message reach us, then we will give the substance of it immediately to the House. We do not consider that the information should be withheld until the exact occupation of particular zones is achieved. The movement of troops and the surrender of enemy troops may well take an appreciable period of time. Moreover, it is not by any means certain at this time, that a complete surrender of the enemy's forces will be the subject of a future announcement.

The point I want to make clear is this. There should not be a statement which committed the Supreme Command to an end of hostilities, if it might be the case that after VE-Day celebrations there were reprisals on this country from territories still held by the enemy in Western Europe.

I shall make no statement that is not in accord with statements which will be made by our Allies, and those Governments will not make statements in the making of which they have not considered maturely the advice of their military commanders in the different theatres both on the Northwestern Front, and on the Italian Front.

There is one point in the Prime Minister's statement on which I am not quite clear. He talked of the Home Office circular dealing with celebrations that are to take place on VE Day; how soon in advance of that day are we to expect that circular?

The circular will be issued this evening, but it has no fixed relationship to the time of any event of great consequence that might occur.

Coming to more prosaic matters, can the Prime Minister say whether it is proposed to suspend the Rule to-night?

We were rather hoping that we should get on all right without doing so.

Is the Prime Minister not aware that an occasion of this kind is very rare—a discussion on Scottish matters—and that most Scottish Members will wish to speak? Would it not be better to suspend the Standing Order? Further, is the Money Resolution to be held over until a later stage?

We live amid rare occasions. We hope that the Bill will be finished in the ordinary time, but if there is a general and definite wish among Members particularly concerned with Scottish matters for more time, so that everyone who can catch Mr. Speaker's eye shall have full opportunity, we will certainly ask for a suspension of the Rule, We must get the Money Resolution to-night, as the Bill has to go upstairs to Committee.

If, by chance, good news should come through when the House is not sitting, will the Prime Minister call the House together, or will the news be given through the B.B.C.

I will certainly not delay the news for a moment. It will break from some authorised or unauthorised channel, and if the House is sitting I will, if the House permits me, take the liberty of coming down and informing it myself.

I wish to ask a question on a point about which there is a good deal of misunderstanding in the country. Will the statement which is to be issued by the Home Office to-night make it clear whether the two days' holiday which is to be granted is to begin when the news of the "cease fire" is released, or whether it will begin on the official notification of VE-Day? The tendency will be for people who hear the "cease fire" to begin their two days' holiday then.

The Home Office circular will make it as clear as it can be, that there will have to be a certain consultation between the Home Office and the managements and between managements and the workpeople.

It is all very well, but we have got to wait until fast-running machinery is turned off. A few hours' notice must be given, if possible secretly. You cannot go away leaving it running. Let me incidentally congratulate the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville) upon his elevation.

Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that there is dissatisfaction among employees of banks at the proposal that they should not be released?

It will be absolutely impossible, whatever happens, to have a day or more of rejoicing without making provision for minimum staffs in every department of this country—banks and other places—to make sure that great injury is not wrought to the public interest, and that old age pensioners and others having most urgent requirements to be met, are properly attended to on a minimum scale. This will affect practically every sphere of our life, but those who are called upon to stay at their posts during such an occasion will, of course, receive their reward later on, in compensatory holidays.

Is it not obvious that the fact that a very large number of our troops will still be engaged in the Far East and Middle East will exercise a very sobering restraint?

I hope that soberness and restraint, for which my hon. Friend is renowned, will always be imitated with propriety in all parts of the country; but soberness and restraint do not necessarily prevent the joyous expression of the human heart.

May I ask the Prime Minister to consider, in view of the importance of this Home Office circular, making it available to Members of the House?

The Home Secretary is very vigilant and forward with all his planning in all these matters, which require a great deal of thought, and he tells me that the circular will be available in the Tea Room and the Library almost immediately.

The circular is not actually in print now. It is duplicated, but the earliest possible circulation will be made to hon. Members of this House, every one.

Statutory Rules and Orders, Etc

Ninth Report from the Select Committee, brought up, and read, as follows:

Your Committee have considered the Purchase Tax (Exemptions) (No. 1) Order, 1945 (S.R. & O., 1945, No. 378), a copy of which was presented on 20th April, the Milk Marketing (Special Areas) (Scotland) (Charges) (Amendment) Order, 1945 (S.R. & O., 1945, No. 413), a copy of which was presented on 24th April, and the Coal (Charges) (Amendment) (No. 1) Order, 1945, (S.R. & O., 1945, No. 438) a copy of which was presented this day, and are of the opinion that there are no reasons for drawing the special attention of the House to them on any of the grounds set out in the Order of Reference to the Committee.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Leave given to the Select Committee to make Two Special Reports.

First and Second Special Reports brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [Nos. 82 and 83.]

New Members Sworn

David Richard Seaborne Davies, Esquire, for the Carnarvon District of Boroughs.

Wing-Commander Ernest Rogers Millington, R.A.F.V.R., for the County of Essex (Chelmsford Division).

Orders of the Day

Education (Scotland) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

3.31 p.m.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

In a postscript to his recently published study on "English Social History," the Master of Trinity College, Professor G. M. Trevelyan, writing in 1941, says:

But experience has shown us obvious gaps in our educational system, obvious improvements in the national interest to be effected, obvious dividends on good citizenship, corporate amenity and wider diffusion of knowledge which we have it in our power to secure.

The nursery school, for example, is not a fad; it is a vital link in the educational chain, and the junior class at age five, or, as it is probably technically correct to call it, the infant class—one of the most difficult of all classes for a teacher—would be made immensely easier if there were more frequently a preliminary nursery school course in habit-forming learning. Many years ago Margaret Macmillan at Deptford showed the way, and I remember over 20 years ago being greatly impressed with the results at Miss Mabel Brydie's nursery school experiment in Dundee. There have been other experiments, many of them in Edinburgh. Out of 23 voluntary efforts 12 were situated in Edinburgh. Clearly, too, at the other end of school life changes are imperative. The school-leaving age should be raised and a secondary education for a three years course made obligatory. Junior colleges for compulsory part-time further education, local technical colleges and added provision for voluntary adult education are essential if the fullest harvest is to be reaped in culture, in good citizenship and in technical efficiency. But in making these advances we must be careful to do nothing which would destroy any facilities our young people already enjoy. These are provided by a variety of agencies, and we believe that the position of these agencies is fully maintained under the provisions of our Bill. The Cadets, the Scouts and the Guides, for instance, have all done valuable work before and during the war, and we are all anxious that the essential benefits of that work should be continued.

The Bill to-day before the House is the Government's attempt to make provision for the bridging of these gaps in our educational system. It has emerged from the crucible of long discussions with a wide variety of organisations interested in Education—local authorities, Churches, the Educational Institute of Scotland, the Directors of Education, the political parties, and in some important respects, for example, the compulsory day continuation classes and education authority bursaries—it bears the impress of the advice tendered by the Advisory Council on Education, to which influential body, under the chairmanship of Principal Sir W. Hamilton Fyfe, of Aberdeen, I would, on behalf of every education interest in Scotland, pay my most sincere tribute.

In some respects, particularly on its machinery and administration side, the Bill is an attempt to reconcile widely divergent, but sincerely held views. It would not have been a Bill but a miracle had I succeeded in reconciling the ad hoc and ad omnia protagonists, but I take some comfort from a study of the controversies which raged furiously around, say, the conscience Clause in the Act of 1872, or the Act of 1918 which brought the voluntary schools within the public system. Whatever may be said of our effort to-day, it is a love feast compared with the vocal virulences which accompanied previous Bills. This comparatively peaceful atmosphere may be due to the fact that our Bill raises no theological controversies. I have purposely avoided making this Bill a consolidation as well as an amending Bill. I have therefore deliberately avoided raising or reopening the settlement arrived at by the Act of 1918. A consolidation Bill will be necessary at no distant date, but this Bill treats as settled the relationship of the voluntary schools to the public educational system and deals with the form and extension of the system only and how it is to be controlled.

The Bill does not deal with the details of the curriculum. If it did I am afraid we should be a long time in the Scots Grand Committee, for some of us have minority or heterodox views about, for example, the content of many of our history books, or about the relative importance attached to Romulus and Remus as against the Diesel engine. But, as in the past, general principles on the content of the public education to be provided will be set forth in codes which are laid upon the Table of Parliament, and schemes of work and time-tables are the responsibility of headmasters, within the policy of the education authority and subject to the approval of H.M. Inspectors. On the curricula, I expect this year from the Advisory Council on Education three important reports: one on primary, one on secondary and one on technical education. They will serve to put more flesh upon the bones of this Bill.

Before I seek to explain in outline the major changes and developments proposed in this Measure I should like to place upon record my conviction that there is one fundamental pre-requisite to any development and extension whatsoever in our educational system, and that is our ability to attract larger numbers of first-class men and women into the teaching profession. If we cannot do that then our proposals for nursery schools, extension of the leaving age, junior colleges and after-school education, more and better school buildings, are simply waste- paper. The Advisory Council has calculated that we have even now in Scotland an under supply from the training colleges of about 1,760 teachers, but through war service casualties the present deficiency is now about 2,500, made up at the moment from the ranks of married women and retired teachers, and they proceed to show how, according to the dates upon which compulsory full-time education to age 15 and day continuation classes are introduced, the teacher deficit may rise to 4,090, plus, of course, the 2,500 emergency volunteers to whom I have already alluded. The shortage will now, through war casualties, be greater than that. In an interim report it will be remembered that the Advisory Council stressed the need for urgent revision of the teachers' salary scales, declaring:

To-day, for example, the maximum salary payable to a non-graduate woman teacher is in Glasgow, £305, in Lanarkshire, £270, in Edinburgh, £250, in Roxburgh, £260, and so on. There is one county where the male certificated teacher starts at £150, less than £3 per week, and it takes him 10 years to reach his maximum of less than £5 per week. In the same county a male graduate with a teacher's training starts at £200 per annum, less than £4 per week—

I will tell my hon. Friend later. Incidentally, the figure of less than £4 per week is lower than the £4 8s. 0d. per week which is being paid to the young policeman on entering the force. It takes men 10 years to get £300 per annum and 14 years to get £360 per annum. I am glad to say that the National Joint Council—half the membership local authority representatives and half teaching profession representatives, with an independent chairman Lord Teviot, well remembered in this. House as Sir Charles Kerr—have succeeded in getting unanimity, and I am hoping that these disparities will disappear from our educational system. An hon. Gentleman asked me to which county I was referring. It was the county of Angus, but there are other counties with figures bordering on those I have quoted. The National Joint Council have now reached provisional agreement upon scales of salary for teachers with the general certificate and the special certificate, and are at present discussing scales for teachers with the technical certificate.

The main features of the educational changes we propose are: (1) Nursery schools and classes, to which I have alluded. Attendance here will be purely vountary; (2) From age 5 to about 12, as now, we have our primary schools and departments with compulsory attendance; (3) Secondary schools and departments, as now, with compulsory attendance between 12 and 14 until not later than April, 1947. Thereafter the age will be raised for compulsory attendance to 15 until it is practicable to raise the age further to 16; (4) Between the upper age limits of 15 and 16 and age 18 further education will be provided at Junior Colleges. These Colleges must be provided within the next five years. Attendance will be compulsory for 1 day a week for 44 weeks a year. Here attendance will be compulsory upon all young persons not undergoing other education approved by the education authority as equivalent to about 7 hours a week; and (5) We provide for voluntary further education, either full time or part time, for persons of any age over school age. This education includes all kinds of adult and technical instruction. All the various types of education may be provided at day schools, colleges or boarding schools. It will be the statutory duty of education authorities to prepare schemes for their areas covering all this extensive field of instruction. These schemes are to be submitted to the Secretary of State who may amend a scheme before approving it. But if his amendment is not finally made with the concurrence of the local authority, the authority may have the scheme laid before Parliament, where it may be annulled by either House. Parliament is, therefore, the Supreme Court of Appeal.

Here may I interpolate a comment that the underlying principle of the Bill is that responsibility should rest with the local democracy and that central control, even when designed by Parliament to ensure a certain uniformity of education facilities to the youth of every area, and a general control, on behalf of Parliament, in the local spending of nationally provided money—that central control should be kept to the minimum. The greater the local responsibility the better the type of citizen who will be willing to serve his fellows in local administraton. And my firm conviction is that the worst form of bureaucracy is a long distance one.

In this Bill, as I have already said, there is only one power taken from local authorities and at their own request—the power to fix standard scales of teachers' salaries. It is not a power which any Secretary of State would yearn to possess, and had there been any way of placing this duty upon the Law Courts with the concurrence of the local authorities and the teaching profession, I would cheerfully have taken it. But by common consent, or rather by common request, the Secretary of State now shoulders this responsibility, after seeking the advice of the National Joint Council.

Apart from some new duties consequential upon new functions conferred upon education authorities by the Bill, there are six other new powers now conferred upon the Secretary of State by this Bill. They are not taken from the local authorities, but they are new. The first is that he may settle a dispute between a parent and an educational authority as to the suitability of a secondary course selected by the parent. Secondly, he may make regulations defining categories of defective children. Thirdly, he may require education authorities to combine for particular purposes. Fourthly, he may make regulations raising the school leaving age to 16. Fifthly, he may make regulations as to school meals. Sixthly, he may make orders releasing land held for educational purposes from obsolete restrictive conditions. And for the way the Secretary of State exercises these powers he is answerable to Parliament, and in the cases where he makes new regulations they must be laid before Parliament who may, of course, annul them.

Provision is made for certain ancillary services—by Clause 34 for transport without charge to and from school or college, the provision of bicycles of other suitable transport facilities or payment of travelling expenses; by Clause 36 for the provision of milk in a midday meal, the proportion of the cost to be charged to the consumers to be fixed by regulations. There is to be a medical inspection at the junior colleges, free medical treatment including the provision of spectacles; free cleaning facilities. Negligent parents who allow reinfestation after cleaning are subject to increased penalties. Suitable and sufficient clothing may be provided.

Under the Bursary Clause—Clause 32—it will be noted that scholarship bursaries and other allowances may be paid to persons over school age. This will cover students at universities and central institutions. In assessing the needs of applicants, bursaries won in open competition, and awards made by the Carnegie Trustees, are to be left out of account. There are about 3,000 open competitive bursaries current in Scotland at any time, of which about 1,000 are awarded annually, and there are 3,000 Carnegie Trust beneficiaries every year receiving an average award of £17. Henceforth these bursaries and awards will be left out of. computation by local authorities when they are assessing bursars' needs. This, I think, is a considerable step in encouraging the lad and the girl o' pairts, and will relieve many a working class household of a serious burden in the higher education of a promising child. Then there is provision, too, for the making of regulations to provide suitable education and treatment for the various categories of handicapped children. The treatment will be given in special schools, and will include child guidance clinics and occupational centres. Education authorities are empowered to provide a child guidance service for the study of handicapped difficult or backward children, Experience of these child guidance clinics was clearly demonstrated, at the great conference we had in Edinburgh on delinquency, to be a service of primary importance. On the question of granting exemption it will be for discussion, no doubt, on the Committee stage, whether the provisions in the English Act are preferable to our proposals.

In the English Act, under Section 39, a child may be granted leave of absence from school by any authorised person—that is any person authorised to grant exemptions by the managers, or governors, and the exemption, so far as the Act goes, may be for any reason and at any age. In our Scots Bill we definitely limit exemption to domestic hardship cases and to children over 14. Full records must be kept, and the Secretary of State may call for returns, and ask the local authority to revoke exemption in any case where the reasons are, in his opinion, insufficient.

Some commentators have expressed disappointment that in the Bill there is no statutory limitation fixed to the numbers of pupils who may be taught in the various grades of classes, primary, secondary, single teacher schools in rural areas, and so on. But these comments are based, I think, upon a misapprehension. There is no disputing the fact that classes of the size still, I am sorry to say, found in some of our schools impose a serious handicap on the education of the pupils and a heavy burden on their teachers. I am in entire sympathy with those who desire to see the maximum size of class reduced. Such reduction indeed may well be the most desirable of all educational reforms. But it is not a matter for this Bill. Our invariable practice has been to deal with it by Codes, made under an Act of Parliament. Thus, in the Codes in force before 1923, the prescribed maxi- mum for primary classes was 60 children habitually under the charge of one teacher; the Code of 1923 reduced that figure to 50; and in the Code of 1935 the maximum was further reduced by a change to 50 pupils on the roll of each class. Immediately teaching staff and accommodation are available, a new Code effecting further reductions in primary schools, and in secondary schools as well, will be laid. That, at least, is the intention of the Education Department, and the record in this respect of the Central Administration has been creditable.

The average size of classes in Scotland as a whole has been reduced in the 50 years to 1942 from 67 to 32, and it is hoped that this trend will continue. But in the difficult—that is, the most populous—areas there are still 362 classes above the maximum laid down in the Code, and enforcement of a new and further reduced figure is at the moment impossible.

Does that average figure include classes of mental defectives, handwork classes, secondary school classes, and so on?

I do not think it includes defective children. I will make inquiries and let my hon. Friend know.

But as an earnest of our intentions, I may say that in the Building Regulations, which will in due course be laid before Parliament, we propose to refuse sanction to the designing of any classroom for more than 40 primary or 30 secondary pupils; and as soon as the necessary teachers and the additional accommodation are available to make a reduction of the Code maximum reasonably practicable, the Code will be amended accordingly.

Before I leave this survey of the education provisions, and come to the, as it appears, more disputed and controversial sections on administrative machinery, I should like to say something about the reasons which have motivated Clause 11. Under this Clause there is an option still left to the education authorities to charge fees in a limited number of schools, always provided that this option may only be exercised where it is without prejudice to the prior and adequate provision of free primary and secondary education in public schools where no fees are charged, or where in other schools the managers take a bulk payment from the education authority, and admit and educate pupils free of charge on the nomination of the education authority.

My right hon. Friend, in his speech, has used the words "prior and adequate." Does he mean to amend the Clause in that fashion? It is very important.

I was not quoting the Clause textually. The words in the Clause are:

"Primary, secondary and compulsory further education provided in public schools and junior colleges under the management of an education authority shall be without payment of fees, provided that if the authority think it expedient they may charge fees in some or all of the classes in a limited number of primary and secondary schools, provided further that the power to charge fees may be exercised only where it can be exercised without prejudice to the adequate provision of free primary and secondary education in public schools in which no fees are charged, or in other schools the managers of which agree, in respect of such payment by the education authority as may be agreed, to admit and educate pupils free of charge on the nomination of the education authority."

The strongest argument against any fee-paying schools in the public education system is that it tends to separate children according to the financial means of their parents, and on that ground alone there is powerful and weighty reason for ending the option.

That is not the worst of it. It makes the children undesirable snobs, apart from educational considerations.

That is what I was saying—it tends to separate them according to the financial means of their parents.

But there are other considerations which, both on Second Reading of the Bill and, probably more in detail, on the Committee stage, we shall require to face. Last year, for example, Glasgow resolved to cancel its fee system in all its high schools. It was perfectly entitled to take that decision, and I intimated that I had no objection if the Department could be satisfied that the arrangements which would follow upon the cancellation of fees were educationally sound. Henceforth, the high schools including Notre Dame school were to be filled on a geographical basis—that is to say, the children in the neighbourhood were to go to these schools, and the pupils presently being taught there on a fee-paying basis were to go to the schools in the areas of the city and outside where they resided. Most of these schools were on the perimeter of the city, and when Glasgow took a census of the primary classes in these perimeter schools, which inevitably would be added to by the new system, a curious result emerged. Thus 217 pupils from the Notre Dame high school for girls in the primary department would have had to be distributed among 17 schools, with already 66 over-size classes, and when examination was made as to what would happen if the primary department children presently at the high schools were redistributed on a zoning system, it was found that 347 pupils would have to go to 27 schools, where there are presently 65 oversize classes. Educationally, therefore, that would have been disastrous, and until there is a sufficiency of school places in any area to accommodate all the children in that area, we would do well to avoid making it obligatory upon any local authority to make such zoning re-arrangements as mean additions to already oversized classes. It has been suggested that it is possible to abolish fees and still avoid the zoning system, by selecting pupils at these high schools upon an educational test. Apart altogether from the difficulty of such a test in the primary departments, there are educational disadvantages, so far as the secondary schools are concerned, in de-grading, say, 20 schools and up-grading one, by this method of canalising the brighter pupils into one school. I know there are other arguments, pro and con, which may be adduced upon this issue. But all I am concerned about this afternoon is to explain why, on educational grounds, it has been considered inadvisable in this Bill to give a central prohibitory direction to local authorities. They will continue, as now, to exercise an option on these matters.

And now to the administrative Clauses—44 to 47 inclusive. Here it is idle to pretend that there is any general acceptance of the compromise proposals, which we devised with a view to overcoming the differences between those who support the ad hoc principle and those who support the present system, in which, since the 1929 Act, education has been incorporated as a unit among the services for which the cities and the county councils are administratively responsible. But there are not only two alternative methods of administering an education service, canvassed, and urged, upon us. There are at least five. The teachers, the E.I.S., have proposed that education should not be a locally-controlled service, but should be a nationalised service. A majority of the county councils and the four large cities favour the present system—that is, one rate collection, and education run by committees of the local authorities in much the same way as water, housing or any other public service is run now. Then there are the supporters of ad hoc —that is, a separate service, separate elections, and a separate rate collection or a budget for education, simply intimated to the rating authority for it to collect—pretty much what we had before the 1929 Act. This ad hoc system is supported by the Convention of Burghs and by a large number of Church organisations.

I am sure these proposals cut across all parties and organisations.

There are the compromise proposals on the present Bill between ad hoc and the ad omnia systems. Our proposals for the Bill are that up to two-fifths of the membership of the education committee should be directly elected for education purposes, so that citizens desirous of serving in an educational capacity are not also required to serve upon drainage or water or housing or public health or upon the large variety of other committees and sub-committees which go to make up local authority administration. These proposals have been criticised on the ground that they might lead to theological controversy. Even were that so, it would not be a unique experience in Scotland, and there are—for example, in Edinburgh—direct representatives of sectarian interests in local government now. Indeed it is at least arguable—to put it no higher than that—that our proposals might diminish the sectarian interests in municipal government in so far as that interest to-day is actively concerned with educational affairs. And, when you come to think of it, so long as all the churches and all the sectarian organisations are interested in education, then, so long are they likely to use their influence at the local polls, whether the occasion be ad hoc, ad omnia, or on a compromise basis between the two.

Nevertheless, the Government appreciate the fact that neither the supporters of ad hoc nor ad omnia have shown any great enthusiasm for the compromise in the present Bill. There was one other suggestion which was put to us as a possible alternative—that we might exclude the four cities from any rearrangement of administration on an ad hoc or compromise ad hoc basis, and might run separate systems for the cities and the counties. But that proposal was not seriously pressed, and its supporters would, I think, line themselves up in general with those who urge a retention of the present local government set-up for all Scotland.

If we were starting afresh, I should myself express my personal preference for an ad hoc system. All the arguments are not upon one side, but the responsibilities of local government are so vital, so extensive and so expanding that the voluntary system of administration in local affairs may soon crack before our eyes if men are to be called upon to give public service to a dozen departments as a condition of being permitted to give service to the one in which they may be specially interested.

But we are not starting afresh, and it is a trite but a truthful observation that it is easier to scramble an egg than to unscramble it, and, whatever may be the future rearrangement of our local government system, I am quite convinced that, if we were to seek to tack on to our present Education Bill any major alteration in our local government structure, we shall not be able to get this Bill on to the Statute Book. We are running against time.

In my view, the only possible alternative to the machinery proposals in this Bill—let us call them the direct election proposals—are the proposals we advanced in our first Bill. These were continuance of the present system of running Education as a conjoint service with Health, Housing, Water and the other services but qualified by delegation of real and effective education powers to the Education Committee from its parent body and abolition of co-option to the Education Committee of persons other than those authorised to speak for the Churches.

Either of these proposals could work, but I am bound to report here the strong preference of the great bulk of the Local Authorities for the proposals in our first Bill—and that covers both Unionist and Labour majorities on these local authorities. The Government has, in fact, sponsored both proposals either in its first or the present Bill, and is prepared to accept the decision of the Scottish Grand Committee. The issue, therefore, which might appropriately be decided at the Committee stage, is whether we should retain meantime the present administrative local authority set-up (including school management committees) but, as I hope, minus co-option to the Education Committee—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I am going to explain that. As I said, minus co-option to the Education Committee for persons other than Church representatives, or whether, we adopt the proposals in the present Bill. I know that there are other views being advanced in favour of the co-option of representatives of special interests. The Chambers of Commerce ask for direct representation. Every Chamber of Commerce in Scotland has sent a resolution asking for direct representation.

Pleas are put up for direct representation of the teachers, and the present arrangement of co-option of persons specially interested in education, in some areas, at least, has petered out into a co-option of defeated candidates at the previous polls. There are no doubt areas where the co-optee has given most valuable and disinterested service to the cause of education, but personally, I regard the co-option system with grave misgivings, and, apart from the Church representatives, who, in some instances, handed over considerable school properties to the community, and, in others, have great historic interests in Scottish education, I should say we would be well advised to move as far as we can away from a syndicated set-up in Local Government.

Has the right hon. Gentleman asked for the Advisory Council's views on this thorny question of administration; has he received any advice, and, if so, what?

Yes, Sir. I understood that my right hon. Friend was going to collect the voices at the end of the day, but the Advisory Council, I believe, has decided in favour of the ad omnia system—the present set-up—provided a Committee of Inquiry is set going as to the future arrangements of local government administration, so far as education is concerned.

Could the right hon. Gentleman not give his view on this important advice since he asked for it?

I do not know. The point here is whether there should be a Committee of Inquiry set up immediately or not. Well, there are reasons, which I am sure would cause my hon. and gallant Friend to pause before he presses that issue. For example, I have already said that I propose to leave the issue to the Scottish Grand Committee, and I cannot very well, in the one breath, say that the Scottish Grand Committee shall decide and that we will set up a Committee of Inquiry. There is another and more important issue about which we must be careful before we have this inquiry, and it is this. Can we limit our inquiry in local government to education? There are grave risks, and we must be cautious before we plunge into that, but I have not turned down this Committee of Inquiry. Indeed, frankly, I am certain that the present set-up in local government administration, as I have already said, cannot continue on this present basis. The overwhelming administrative difficulties suffice against it.

This Bill is a denial that education either begins at age five or ends at age 14. It is a machinery Bill providing for nursery schools, for primary schools, for compulsory secondary education up to age 16 for after school education. It does not touch the content or the substance of what is to be taught in the schools. That is material to be developed and amended from time to time by education authorities, Headmasters and teachers, H.M. Inspectors, and the Secretary of State, advised, as I hope, increasingly, by his Advisory Council. But a large and growing part of our educational opinion, I think, goes steadily towards the abandonment of much of our bookish, academic, and date-memorising learning and is reaching out more and more to tuition in good citizenship and in relating our school culture to the facts of twentieth century life.

There is a well-known apophthegm: "Open a school and close a prison." It is manifestly an exaggeration. Nevertheless it is true that, while it costs £13 5s. 0d. per annum to educate a primary school child and £22 14s. 0d. per annum to educate a secondary school child, it is also true that the cost of a Borstal inmate is £110 per annum and penal servitude cases cost £140 per annum. And that all our hopes of a better, happier and more prosperous world are surely based not upon ignorance but upon enlightenment.

4.27 p.m.

It is a somewhat embarrassing privilege to be asked to speak at the beginning of a Debate like this, especially after the wonderful speech to which we have listened. I think there are quite a number of fascinating avenues along which I might go. I might devote at least an hour, I am sure, to appreciation of the speech to which we have just been listening, that wonderful exposition of a wonderful and, on the whole, very admirable Bill. I might also speak of the instruments which carry out the work of this great Education Department—the teachers, the members of what I regard as one of the two most important of all professions. I was particularly interested to hear what the right hon. Gentleman said about the need of attracting to this great profession the pick of the people, and of the encouragement of university graduates to enter the profession. There is another detail which I do not think the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, and which I think is tremendously important, and that is that more liberty should be given to the individual teacher. I had the great good fortune myself to be a teacher for 33 years—a peculiar type of teacher, namely, one of the old-style of Regius Professors who could teach exactly as they chose, who could not be removed from office, whatever they taught, except by Act of Parliament—

or an act of God. What an experience that was. You did get the best, so far as it went, out of one in that way; but that would never have happened if one had had to follow exactly some rigid code. I was interested—I must not continue with this, but I should just mention two little points that drew my attention particularly—in the right hon. Gentleman's reference to boarding schools. I never had the fortune to be at one myself, but I have seen a great deal of their products, and I do appreciate what a tremendous boon they were in the real educational process. It is not the professional teachers in the great English public schools that play the main part; it is the other boys. The small boy entering a public school finds himself in a little community of boys rather older than himself; on the whole, decent boys, and he is educated by them, mentally, in his scraps with other boys and his discussions about his masters; physically by the games that he plays; morally in that finest of all codes called in our plain English fashion "learning to play the game." I was glad then to hear reference to the possibility of introducing the boarding school element more in Scotland.

However, I do not propose to follow out any of these paths I have indicated, although each one of them would provide material for at least an hour's speech. I would take rather another path altogether—that of considering education itself, the work that this great machinery has to do. I would plead again, as I have pleaded before, for the encouragement in this system of training in observation, in interpretation of observation and in alertness of mind. This comes into contact with our lives in all sorts of ways. To one who, as I do, lives in the country, one of the most pathetic sights is the blind children of the countryside. You meet a little party of boys, active, bright-eyed. If you had an ophthalmologist to examine their eyes he would say that there was nothing the matter with them. Yet they are blind to all the beauties of the countryside. To them, too, the sounds of the country, the sough of the wind in the trees, the beating of the waves on the shore, the hum of insects, the songs of the birds, and all the lessons they teach are unheard, for they are deaf too, although an aurist who examined their ears would tell you that they were all right. They are both blind and deaf. They appreciate neither the sights of the country nor its beauties.

What has all this to do with anything of importance in their life? Actually it gives some explanation of one of those social things that we all deplore, namely, the drift to the towns. We discuss it with one another and say how horrible it is that these young persons in the country should flock to the towns. But is it any wonder? It is no wonder at all. They are bored with their country life, and that that is the true explanation is seen if you look at country people later in life: the people who have had to work on the land or in the woods or in the fens, who then have to begin to train their powers of observation and interpretation of what is observed. They become interested in stock, plants, woods, vermin, the weather. All these things they learn to observe and to interpret. Where do you find any of those middle-aged countrymen who want to move to the towns? There is nothing of the kind. They know that the country is a most delightful place in which to be and they remain there.

However, I should not spend time over those comparatively small points, because this question of observing, interpreting and thinking has to do with a far bigger problem than that of mere details like those I have been mentioning. It has to do with the very survival of our civilisation. We have learnt with our own senses within these last weeks a great lesson of what it means when we crush the powers of thinking and of observing and when we keep up the medieval system of simply training to absorb information, good or bad. We see what it means in this strange new world in which we live, this world of books and papers and cinemas and wireless. We see what a grip is got over the ordinary citizens, and we see, when the Government get into unscrupulous hands, the fate of the civilisation of that country. We have seen what has happened in one great country of Europe which was prevented from thinking: taught to believe always what was doled out to it and its result in that exhibition of organised devilry such as has never happened in the world before.

Our horror in that particular case should not be unmingled with a deep sense of sorrow that one of the great countries of the world, whose contributions to literature, philosophy, music, poetry and science have been not inconsiderable, has been led to its fate through the neglect to educate its citizens to think, to observe and to interpret and so to continue successfully to live in the strange new world of to-day. I seem to see, away in the East, the dawn breaking, for within these last few months the great autocrat of Russia, Joseph Stalin has devoted himself, aided by his Commissar of Education, Potemkin, to overhauling the old system of school education and has reformed it to a great extent along those very lines. This may be an interesting detail regarding that system of education which some of us are so keen on, co-education, which to the biologist is foolish, for it ignores the difference of sex. We all of us admit that in its early stages, co-education is the only thing practically possible, but only up to a certain stage. Was it not an Indian Babu who called it the attainment of the age of cupidity? When that stage was reached it was essential biologically to separate the two sexes and bring them up in separate ways and to develop the soft and evasive charm and so on of one sex and the aggressive hard virility of the other. So I am very glad to see that away in the East they have tested the matter by experiment and found it beneficial to separate the sexes. I am afraid that I have kept the House much too long and I will now sit down, ending merely by repeating my appreciation of the Bill now before us.

4.40 p.m.

I would like to keep my remarks as short as possible because there are many hon. Members who are much more entitled to speak on this special day than I am. I have for my own interest been looking through the little reference book that I have here to see where especially hon. Members opposite received their own education. I find myself almost in a majority because I cannot speak from first-hand experience of inside a Scottish school. But I have been Member for Kilmarnock for 12 years, and I have tried to see as much as I. can of the inside from the outside. I would like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on bringing forward at last a Bill in this form, and upon the many new duties which he has laid upon local aducation authorities. I find, however, that very few impartial outside observers, and very few of those within the system who speak to me frankly are at all happy about Scottish education to-day. I want to express my own views in a quotation from a recent Fabian pamphlet which is extremely well informed, written by Miss Eileen Holmes:

"It is as if we wanted to take the well-constructed skeleton of the system and add the living tissue. We want to create something warmer, something more leisurely and more personal than the system as we know it. It implies a system that is an organism and not an organisation. This needs something more than an educational machinery. It needs sound educational thinking and an appreciation of the part to be played by personal relationships in every part of the educational machine."

If I had to say in a few sentences what I feel about Scottish education I think it would be that. As a machine it is not too bad, but there is something lacking. I think that more and more it is due to the social and industrial conditions outside the school as well as to certain rigidities inside. One has only to look at the disclosures of infant mortality—my hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir John Orr), who enriches the House with his presence, knows all about that—the reports on juvenile delinquency, and the totally inadequate nursery school provision. When my right hon. Friend referred to Dundee 20 years ago, my mind immediately went to the present figures. What are they after 20 years? With a population of 178,000, there are three nursery schools, and two nursery classes to accommodate 150 children. There are 14 war-time nurseries. There are only six nursery trained teachers in Dundee after 20 years. Why has that happened? Why is it that, in things like the provision of nursery schools and so on, Scotland has not gone even as far as England in the last 20 years? I would give another example; I told my right hon. Friend some months ago about it. I went to a camp school. It was run by the Edinburgh authority. I was very interested when those schools started. This camp school has been going on for some years. I do not know whether hon. Members will believe me, but I went to a school where children were not allowed to speak at meals.

Could the hon. Gentleman say which school it was?

West Linton—about 20 miles away. It was run by the Edinburgh authority. I went to other of these camps and I am not so sure that putting everything under the local authorities as they are at present constituted—of course my right hon. Friend is making changes—is going to answer the questions which he himself has been the first to raise throughout the length and breadth of Scotland. The reason why local authorities do not seem to be able to get on as quickly as they might is due partly to Party politics in the worst sense. I think, too, that financial stringency has something to do with it. I believe that only a new civic movement—almost a 51st division—in education and social improvement will make the slightest difference to the future. I have a wealth of testimony here, most of it given me privately by teachers who are afraid to say it publicly. In the Report which the Scottish Convention issued they used the phrase

The other thing they say is that there is a lack of drive at the centre. I would never criticise civil servants but one has to criticise whoever is in authority. There is also, according to my informants, a good deal of ignorance on education committees; a weak inspectorate—I believe only two, and those sub-inspectors—in physical education; there is not enough freedom for headmasters. When my right hon. Friend referred to the curriculum twice and mentioned the headmaster I was very glad, because that has been told me time after time from one end of Scotland to the other; and also far too little scope for the able woman teacher. Another thing is that the system is too much a closed corporation. It is examination-ridden by the tests at the ages of 15 and 17 which, anyway in my opinion, ought to be at 16 to 18. It is only a fanatical objection to specialisation, which I think is quite misplaced, that prevents it; the consequence is that there is no such thing in many schools as a sixth form in the sense of the term as normally used.

My fear is that the Bill does not give an effective guarantee that these things will be done. I wish my right hon. Friend had been able to lay a White Paper—I believe he could have done it because he has his own views—he did lay an original Bill—to get the underlying philosophy clear. I wish, also, that some of the sins had been frankly confessed as they were in the White Paper in England, which contained a critical comment of the present system. I do not think it is good to be complacent about these things. If I had any criticism of my right hon. Friend—he has done a good deal in setting up the various committees and the Advisory Council—it is that in that speech in Glasgow he adopted a rather complacent attitude. His figures were impeccable. There is nothing wrong with the figures of those who go to Scottish universities as compared with English, but that is only half the story. He did not say that 20 per cent. of those who go to the universities fail to graduate; he did not say of the secondary schools that 40 per cent. fail to get a junior certificate; he did not say that 50 per cent. are forced to leave, partly for financial and partly for other reasons. These are the things that matter when you are dealing with figures.

Therefore, I would suggest certain reforms, some of which have been put in the many White Papers and blue papers that come from directors of education, political parties and so on. I think there ought to be a Minister of Education in Scotland. I have said it before. I do not think that my right thon. Friend can possibly do the whole job himself; it is not only the fact that there is a Minister but also because there is somebody you can attack in the House of Commons. It is no good throwing the blame on the officials; in fact, more often than not in Scotland, you are referring to a Department, whereas in England you are referring to a couple of Ministers, and, with the best will in the world, an official of the central Department is not expected to take great initiative. He is expected to do a great deal of things which his Ministers ask—obviously to make suggestions of all kinds—but he is not expected to take great initiative, and that is precisely what is wanted in Scotland.

I would like to ask my right hon. Friend what is the future of the Advisory Council. At the moment it is a very big body. I am very glad that there are three hon. Members of this House on it and he doubt we shall hear them in a few minutes, and, if I may say so of them, they have probably learned a great deal from the very fact of sitting on it. Is there a way of associating the Scottish Members more closely with this all-important problem? We envy them and we are looking forward to hearing them. As to local organisation, I am not going to enter into this controversy because I do not think anyone who has not sat on local authorities ought to do so, but, whether they are specially elected or co-opted, local administrations must include persons of proved educational interest and proved knowledge. I do not understand my right hon. Friend at all on this. I know he said it was the opinion of a great many persons or authorities in Scotland but, in my experience, there is no objection to Dr. Boyd sitting on an education committee in Scotland or of having a person like Annie Dunlop—I wish to goodness it could happen—who is probably one of the greatest historians in this country. She is doing valuable work and has just been given an O.B.E. I can think of many first-class people who are not on education authorities. Why?

I hope my hon. Friends on this side of the House will not think I am attacking democracy. I want to see more democracy. Surely if we can find people to form the committees for local pre-service training units, as we found 25 brand new people out of the community in Kilmarnock who were previously not associated with any educational work—there are about 10 with the A.T.C., nine with the sea cadets, and there are others with the scouts and the young farmers' clubs—we should do so. If you can get those people after the war—not to mention the Home Guard, not to mention the Civil Defence—what about the defence of children and the guard of youth? Do you mean to say there are not people who would not give up time for a specific subject? It might be said that they ought to put themselves up for publicly-elected bodies. I do not mind if they are elected. I am only saying that there are people who have the time to do one thing and do it well—where their interest lies—but who have not the time to spread themselves over the whole field of local government.

What about the teachers and the parents themselves? It seems to me that the functions of larger and smaller authorities need overhauling, especially the question of the appointment of teachers. I have been told that the appointment of teachers ought to be kept in very small local bodies. I am not sure, really, whether you will get people with first-class degrees going into this profession when they are organised and very often bossed and run by people who have very little knowledge of education. I am not sure whether the appointment of teachers ought not to be on a wide basis. If my right hon. Friend or other hon. Members say, "Where is your democracy going now?" I will tell them. The unit of education is the school, not the county council, and Scotland has to get back to where she was 250 years ago. The unit of the school is the only genuine nucleus in education, the only thing that matters. They say to me, "I have 175 teachers or 45 schools; I am a director of education." Who is this man who dares to say he has 45 schools? I would like to see my right hon. Friend add to his admirable Bill an instrument of government for every secondary school and, I believe, for every primary and nursery school, and associate persons of proved educational interest with it. The director of education will get neatness and symmetry, but neatness and symmetry can often be the grave and the cemetery of individuality, and individuality is the key to the whole of education.

I want to see the parents represented. Somehow or other we have to restore this connection between the home and the school. In the days when people paid for their education they made a personal and private contract with the headmaster. If they did not like it they took their child away; if the headmaster did not like their child, he was expelled after a certain point. How are you going to bring back that personal and private contract into a collective system called State education and largely controlled education? My right hon. Friend said he had taken new powers. One of them is to judge the settlement of a dispute between the parent and the L.E.A. I am very glad he has made provision for varied courses, but if he is going to give what that parent requires when, as we know, there is a hideous shortage of teachers and still a shortage of buildings, my right hon. Friend will find that his Department will be very fully occupied. As for secondary schools, here is a statement made by the Scottish Convention, which included Naomi Mitchison: question of denying the one; it is simply a question of giving them something different and relating it much more closely to the needs of real life. I sometimes wonder whether we are going to lose the very best experience we have learned through the fires of war.

The nursery schools and the war nurseries are in danger in certain parts of Scotland. It may be that the pre-service units, of which 750,000 youngsters were members at the end of last year, will dwindle, before the Japanese war is out, to something like 150,000. There is no particular reason why boys in the A.T.C. should go on, because the thing that will be missing will be their "wings," which is why they did arithmetic, although it was called "celestial navigation." If nobody can find a symbol for "wings" after this war you will not get a youth movement and the feeling which young people can give to the building of the post-war world. However, I do not want to go into that now, because it is hardly part of this Bill.

My right hon. Friend referred to the teaching profession, and I want to say that English people might well look back on the 20 years of so-called unity in the Scottish teaching profession and remember that only a few years ago there was set up a secondary school defence committee because people like my hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Graham Kerr), who has been teaching for 35 years or more, do not intend necessarily to submit themselves to 1½ years' training when they are, first of all, educated men. The war has shown that the technique and tricks of teaching can be picked up in six months, and I say that as one who has had a careful look at the Army's experience. I do not agree with the present method of training teachers, and I do not think you will get the best teachers in future unless you pay them more and pay them differently for their qualifications as well as attainments. So long as teachers in some schools—and it is true of Glasgow and parts of Kilmarnock—have to spend a large proportion of their time filling in forms for boots, spectacles and clinics, how can you expect the schools in which they teach to be on the same basis as the so-called fee-paying schools? If you read the testimony of Sir William McKechnie and other people you will find that the difference between the fee-paying school and the other type of school is not due to buildings or teachers; it is due to the whole conditions and the opportunities those children have at home.

I would like to see the schoolday continuing with a high tea; no homework; the abolition of Saturday work; and plenty of time left for teachers to get out. Nobody can teach for 40 years and have no break. The teaching profession, which is a closed corporation, ought to be easier to get into and out of, because unless you let new light into that noble profession I do not think you will get the teachers you require. We have had to compel people to go down the pits during the war. Teaching was a declining profession before the war, and unless some change can be made I do not think you will get the numbers you require. All the talk about this Bill will be useless, because you will not have the people to implement its provisions.

Finally, it seems to me that teachers and schools are up against impossible social and industrial conditions. Why is it that there are so few nursery schools? Why is there only one new adult education college, and that due to the late Lord Lothian? Why are there no other adult residential colleges? There is something missing. Why is it that Denmark, Sweden and Norway have, literally, scores of adult residential colleges? The reason can only be related, once again, to a certain rigidity of mind. The whole business of the education of children and young people between 12 and 21 must be thought out afresh, almost from the first beginnings. Education is not a popular subject. It is not a very popular subject in this House. It is in the doldrums. There is a good deal of talk about it when an Education Bill comes before the House, but that is all. In America, interest is about twice as great and the reason is that education is part of the everyday life of the ordinary person. I would have thought that in Scotland, where more people go to the common schools, there would be more interest. Ninety per cent. of the Conservatives in this House have never been through the school system. Further, few of those who administer the school system in England, from the Civil Service point of view, have been through it.

I hope my right hon. Friend will not only pass this Bill, which he will do, with Amendments, but will attack the provincial outlook and the national nepotism of Scotland. No country is great, except by absorbing other cultures. France is great because she did that, and Scotland will be great if she will absorb culture from everywhere. It is not easy to get a job in Scotland, or in a school there, unless you have special Scottish qualifications. Scotland not only wants to let the air in within Scotland, but also to let the air in from without. If she does that then there is nothing to stop that country, with its lovely countryside, its able children and its great traditions, going back 200 or 300 years, from becoming even greater. That is the challenge of this Bill.

5.8 p.m.

Before I join issue with some parts of the excellent and stimulating speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay), I want to offer my congratulations to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland for having brought forward this Bill to-day. It is not an epoch-making Measure, or revolutionary in any way; it is a workmanlike instrument designed to meet conditions as they are to-day. Before I proceed further I want to make a few remarks about the format of the Bill rather than its content, and to say that I wish we could have had it sooner. We are a little tired of being dragged at the English tail and particularly in the matter of education. Further, in contrast to the last Scottish Bill we recently debated, I want to say how refreshing it is that my right hon. Friend has produced such a readable Bill. I think that with only two references back the Bill can be read by anyone for the first time and be understood. I suppose that I should say that the draftsmen ought to be congratulated rather more than my right hon. Friend. I make that point because I had a brush with my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate when we were discussing our last Scottish Bill.

There is only one serious defect in the format to which I would like to draw attention. It is true that my right hon. Friend has said that he is taking away perhaps only one function from the local authorities, and it may be true that he is adding only six functions to his Depart- ment in relation to educational machinery. But I am inclined to say that not since another right hon. Gentleman in this House put up some road signs for himself have I come across any place where the Minister's office is so often mentioned as in this Bill. I made some calculations, and I discovered that in the main part of the Bill the Secretary of State for Scotland is named 145 times, that in the Schedule he is named 27 times and in the rubric three times, making a grand total of 175.

I was unable to read that Bill, or at any rate to understand it. I hope that by the time we come to the Committee stage my right hon. Friend will have found some way, if not of removing some of these references, of assuring me that they do not involve any additional functions to the six to which he has already drawn our attention. Speaking on behalf of the majority on this side of the House, I want to say that we have only three main reservations to make. One of them concerns the subject of co-opted members mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock, and on which I am strongly in disagreement with him. Why should my hon. Friend think that in education special arrangements should be made for people with educational interests or educational knowledge? What is sacred or different about education? If people have public spirit, if they are concerned about the difficulties or opportunities of their neighbours, they offer themselves for election to the authority concerned, and for that purpose they equip themselves with a knowledge of the social machine in which they intend to take part. It may be that they bring forward some special knowledge of the subject, but I cannot see that there is any strong argument for co-option or limited election.

That would be pressing me too far. I do not think we can end that system because, as my right hon. Friend has said, we have obligations to certain interests, for instance, the Churches, and my party feels that a bargain made has to be kept.

Why are the Churches always dragged in? Other bodies have just as good a right as the Churches. I am all for the Churches, but why not others?

I am not certain that my hon. Friend is not "pulling my leg," but I can tell him the answer, sorrowfully, in a sentence. The reason why the Churches must have an interest is one which obtrudes itself into so much of our administration. It is the property interest. It is because the Churches, to permit us to produce a workable machine in Scotland, made concessions in relation to their school properties and it was agreed consequently that for this among other reasons they should have special representation and about that I make no complaint. But although we have made that agreement and cannot escape from it, surely the hon. Member is not going to argue that it should be extended. There is no argument for saying that because we have got to have a co-opted member representing the Churches, we should extend that principle to include other people.

My hon. Friend knows perfectly well that there is here an educational interest, and I would be inclined to say that because we have religious education within the general framework, we will continue to have, and perhaps ought to have, the people particularly interested in religious teaching taking a share in the administration.

The hon. Member seems to think that some of us seek to extend the system of co-option. That is not the issue. We are seeking to maintain what is a long-established system; we are not seeking any extension.

If, as the hon. Member says, the system is a good one, why not extend it? What is the objection?

Either I have been very clumsy in my expression or the hon. and gallant Member is displaying an obtuseness which is unusual to him. I was attempting to show that the system is not a good one. At any rate, hon. Members on this side want neither to see this system of co-option extended nor to see an ad hoc administration created.

I think perhaps these conversations might cease. I ask hon. Members to address the Chair.

I hope I have not departed from that practice, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and if I have, I beg your pardon. The majority of my party want me to say that in this matter they do not wish to see co-option extended; nor will they stand by and see any attempt, which would mean unduly delaying the passage of the Bill, to thrust in an ad hoc administration. That is where we stand. The second reservation we have to make deals with the question of exemptions, to which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made considerable reference. I was very cheered by his assurances, although I am afraid I was unable completely to follow them. I have said that there are only two places in the Bill where there is legislation by reference, and, of course, this is one of them. If hon. Members will turn to Clause 23, Sub-section (6), they will see that there is a reference to the Act of 1936, and when one turns up the 1936 Act one finds that, although my right hon. Friend says that the power of exemption is limited to one year and is only for the purpose of domestic hardship, the appropriate Section in the 1936 Act hardly seems to read like that. It refers to home circumstances in which it would I hope that my right hon. Friend, on reflection, will agree to cut out this provision altogether. If there is domestic hardship, that is a criticism of the local authority. It means one of two things: either they have failed to provide the nursing which a sick person in a home needs, or they have failed to provide the home help which an overworked woman with a large family needs. The remedy is not to make the child, the girl more often than the boy, lose this irreplaceable last year at school simply for the sake of saving a local authority some finance or some bother. Poverty is rarely a crime, and certainly it never should be accepted as an offence which is going to be visited upon the child. The local authority should see to it that even the poorest home is so equipped that every child from it is permitted the fullest education possible. Unless my right hon. Friend is able to give us some further assurances, my hon. Friends feel that, on the Committee stage, they will have to move the deletion of this provision.

The third reservation concerns fee paying. We have already had some discussion about that. My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock himself dealt with the matter to a limited extent. My hon. Friends and I feel that where a school is primarily sustained by State funds or local rates, no one should be barred admission to that school by the imposition of an entrance fee. I think sometimes the public does not understand that, however great the actual fee may seem to an individual, it is negligible when compared with the gross liabilities of the school. For example, I am told that in Glasgow the total fees for all the high schools represent only the income of ¾d. on the rates. In Aberdeen it is a rather more substantial sum, but that is almost what one would expect from that town. Moreover, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State went to great pains to show that there is a prior obligation upon the local authority to provide free primary and secondary education. From Clause 11 I am not certain that that is so. After reference to My understanding of this is that where a local authority finds that it has not a sufficient number of places in a non-fee-paying school, it can escape from its obligation by buying places in a fee-paying school. I am sure my right hon. Friend will agree that, if this reading is correct, it means there may be a certain number of pupils in all these schools who will be marked out from the remainder by the fashion in which their fees are paid. In addition, if they have to apply for clothing, which is provided for in the Bill, if they are to be fed and medically examined, which is provided for in the Bill, they will be sorted out as being different from other pupils in the school.

I do not pretend that this business of fee-paying is a simple one. None of us would argue that it could be quickly and immediately wiped out, although I cannot agree with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that the only alternative to zoning is to de-grade a number of schools. That is not necessarily the case. If you up-grade a school, if you make one school available for every one showing special aptitude or ability, the inference is not that you de-grade every other school from which that school draws its pupils. That is a dialectical escape to which I hope my right hon. Friend will not have recourse. I think that, when we are making a start, as we are doing in this Bill, we should attempt to see that the best education and the accumulated teaching skill and the traditions which these schools provide shall be available not to the people whose parents can buy them a way in, but to every boy and girl in the community who can, on test or by interview, be shown to be likely particularly to benefit from them.

The House will welcome the provision for junior colleges, but I hope my right hon. Friend will consider whether he cannot wipe out the partial provision, by which I mean the "escape" Clause according to which a boy can go one day or two half-days a week. I think everyone with any experience of education knows that the living together, the interchange of ideas, the squaring up to one another, does more than any teacher can do in that adolescent stage to develop confidence and that kind of pugnacity which every boy should have. I do not believe it would be a difficult job to find in the military camps which are littered all over the country suitable buildings, on suitable sites, which could be adapted for residential junior colleges to which every boy and girl could go for four weeks or eight weeks in the year. I will go so far as to say that I would be willing to wipe out the provision concerning an equivalent number of educational days to eight weeks if I could be satisfied that every boy and girl would go for at least four weeks in a year to a residential college. The advantage of the country boy becoming familiar with the countryside would in itself be of huge benefit.

Finally, I plead that these two years shall not be used merely for an extension of the existing curriculum. We have got to add something to the curriculum, we have got to add something to the power and direction of our schools, if the boys and girls are to get the full benefit of this Bill. There has been a reference to the boys of the A.T.C., and to the fact that if these youngsters were handed a table of logarithms in a class-room, it seemed to many of them a punishment for an offence, whereas in the A.T.C. pre-training the boys wrestled with these things because they were a key to something else. An hon. Member who sits on this side of the House, and whose opinion I greatly respect, said to me, when we were discussing this matter last week, "Will you say something about making cultural education available to every boy and girl in this country?" Although he is a clever and distinguished man, he told me that all his life he had regretted not knowing anything about music. I am sure it is the job of my right hon. Friend, with his committees and his advisers, within the two years which this Bill will ultimately make available, to devise methods of showing our people that, just as a table of logarithms was a way into the sky, an introduction to these other subjects, to music, painting, reading, a knowledge of the countryside, which so few of us have, is an essential part of our education, and will be one of the ways in which we can measure whether or not this Bill is a success.

5.30 p.m.

We in Scotland have always prided ourselves on our interest in education, and it has ever been our boast that we are the most advanced of the nations of the United Kingdom in educational matters, but I feel that there is perhaps a grain of truth in what the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay) said, that all was not right at present in Scottish education, and I think lately we have been perhaps losing a little ground to our neighbours in the South. The Bill gives us a good opportunity to take up our proper position in the forefront. It is impossible to deal with all the points that I should like to cover. The main subjects that I propose to touch on are the constitution of education committees, the fact that no mention is made of the size of classes, the status of teachers and the future of technical education, this latter a very important point indeed. Clause 44 and subsequent Clauses deal with the rather revolutionary change in the constitution, the powers and the system of election of members of education committees and local education committees. Undoubtedly, if the Bill goes through in its present form, there will be a substantial departure from existing practice. I am not wildly enthusiastic about these alterations as it seems to me that our education committees of the future will be decidedly hybrid organisations containing three distinct elements—the local authority members, elected education members and co-opted Church members—but at the same time I recognise that the Secretary of State was faced with great difficulty and that the proposals in the Bill represent a genuine and ingenious attempt at compromise between the school of thought which believes in the ad hoc principle and that which believes in the status quo. I think there is a great deal to be said for the ad hoc principle but I do not feel that we can turn back to pre-1929 days and re-introduce it in its entirety for the reason the Secretary of State gave, that the eggs had been scrambled too thoroughly in the intervening years. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out that certain difficulties occur in some localities about co-opted members, but my experience as a member of the Edinburgh Education authority did not show up these weaknesses and in fact the committee's work proceeds very harmoniously. But, whilst I and many of my friends are not wildly enthusiastic about the proposals in the Bill, we certainly would prefer them to any idea of tinkering with the existing system. We are prepared to accept the status quo as it stands if nothing better can be done, but I do not feel that we should be dis- posed to dispense with co-opted members, as was proposed in the first draft of the Bill.

The next point I turn to is the size of classes. Clause 23 deals with the raising of the school leaving age and Clause 29 with the attendance age at junior colleges. They are both very important Clauses and I would not seek to minimise them at all, but it seems to me that by far the most important practical step is to reduce the size of classes. It is unfortunate, to say the least of it, that something cannot be done by legislation, and I am not entirely convinced by what the Secretary of State has said on this matter. This question has been the subject of a great deal of unfavourable comment in resolutions which many of us have received from various organisations, particularly the Educational Institute of Scotland and the Primary Teachers' Association. I have very great sympathy with the views of the teachers. In the course of the last year or so I have visited every school in my constituency and have seen the difficulties that the teachers are labouring under, In some cases they are endeavouring to teach 50, in at least one case 55 children in a class, though I admit the average for the country as a whole is considerably below that. But I feel that the question demands the earliest attention. We cannot possibly expect good results from the proposals in this Bill if our teachers are labouring under such an intolerable strain. I feel that this is a matter that may well have to be dealt with in Committee.

I feel very strongly that the men and women who represent the teaching profession do not enjoy that status in the life of the nation to which they are entitled by their calling, and I want to see their conditions of service improved. I was very glad to hear the Secretary of State say very much the same thing and I hope the Scottish Education Department will do everything possible in the matter. I think it is essential for the future well-being of the country that we should continue to attract the right men and women into the profession and, unless we get them in very much larger numbers than we have done for many years past, we cannot possibly carry out all the new projects outlined in this Bill. It is a matter of first-class importance.

Clause 36 deals with the supply of milk and meals to children, a service which is on the whole working very well and which we hope will be very greatly extended in the future. But it has one little complication attached to it. I refer particularly to what goes on in the larger primary schools. An altogether disproportionate amount of the teachers' time is taken up with dealing with these matters of the dispensing of food and milk and savings stamps and one thing and another and, although I am quite in favour of teachers taking part in the communal life of the school, I feel that in certain large schools this has been rather over-done. It may be that it is not appropriate to deal with the matter by legislation but inquiry should be made into the amount of time spent by teachers on these extraneous duties and, particularly in the case of the large primary school, encouragement should be given to the local education authorities to engage unskilled labour to do a lot of the work which is at present performed by teachers and which takes them away from their proper functions.

I come next to a matter which has not yet been touched on, the future of technical education. Very vague reference is made to it in Clause 2 (7) and I should like to know a good deal more about what is intended. I should like to feel assured that very considerable extensions and improvements are going to be made. Wars breed many evils, but they also bring in their train certain indirect compensations, such as great advances in scientific development, in engineering processes and so on. I feel that we ought to take advantage of all the progress that has been made in these technical matters during the war and endeavour in the immediate future to teach new methods and new trades in our technical schools and institutes. It is of the highest importance that we should increase the efficiency of British industry and agriculture if we are going to improve, or indeed even maintain, the standard of living of the people. I should like to call attention to a brief passage in the White Paper on Employment Policy, Cmd. 6527, paragraph 6: Bill and in our system of education. We ought to aim at providing up-to-date technical classes and schools, fitted with modern equipment, so that our children and young people may have a chance of early and sound grounding in those technical subjects which attract them. Whether or not it is possible to amend the Bill, I would urge that, once it becomes law, administrative action should be taken by the Secretary of State and the Scottish Education Department to ensure that local education authorities do everything possible to improve the standard of technical education in Scotland.

5.44 p.m.

In rising to speak here for the first time, I would hope for the consideration which I understand is customary. Also I might state that I am in a rather singular position—not only numerically—for I, and the colleagues who will shortly follow me from Scotland, come here with no intention of interfering in the affairs of this country or of reforming any of the legislation, or of changing any of the customs of this House. We come with the intention of returning as soon as possible to our own country, where we may, under democratic government, achieve the long-needed reconstruction of Scotland. In the meantime—and this is why I intervene in this Debate—it is necessary for us to do everything in our power to safeguard the Scottish position from any further deterioration.

What is this Bill for? I find that in the official explanatory Memorandum, it is stated that thing as an international education, whether we like it or not. Scottish education has a different fundamental social basis from any English education. Its basis probably differs more from that of English education, than that of the education of any other European country. If Scotland acquiesces in copying English education, she may say "Good bye" to everything that has ever been good in her educational tradition.

The fundamental basis of Scottish education has always been a democratic one. On the other hand, the basis of English education, it appears to me as an outsider, is of the nature of a caste basis and an anti-democratic or feudal basis. These two cannot mix. They are like oil and water. They can, however, live side by side. Let me illustrate that point. I have a friend who recently applied for a commission in the British Army. When asked what school he was at, he said he was at Knowetop public school. He got his commission in the British Army. It is all a matter of the definition of a word, and I was shocked and distressed to hear the hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Graham Kerr) indicate that he was ignorant of what a public school in Scotland was. There is a difference in the interpretation of the word "public." In Scotland, I always considered that the word "public" meant everybody and everybody matters. In England, it seems that "public" means those that matter and that those that matter are not everybody. That is a superficial illustration of the deep social cleavage between the traditions and set ups in both countries. In education it is particularly desirable that we in Scotland should follow the democratic tradition and keep to our democratic basis.

No one to-day can be in the least happy about the position of Scottish education, and the best teachers are very distressed that they cannot give the education they would like to give. Among other things, their time is taken up with non-educational matters. It is not much of an exaggeration to say that, to-day, an educated Scotsman is educated in spite of much of the Scottish educational system, and that a teacher in Scotland, giving of his best and contributing to the education of his pupils, does so in spite of the system under which he has to operate.

There is in this Bill a provision for junior colleges, but there is no indication of what will be taught in those colleges, to which young people are to be sent compulsorily. Is it the aim of education in Scotland to help people to think for themselves? Do we want education in Scotland to help to raise Scottish citizens, or do we want education to breed a race of docile North Britons? I think that education should be for the citizenship of a democratic country and that it should not be for the fake citizenship of a slave State. There is a line of thought just now which desires to see the greatest possible uniformity in educational and other matters. That line of thought has to be resisted. We want variety, not uniformity. It seems to me, though it is not frankly confessed, that it is envisaged in this Bill that there will be an early specialisation in education for at least one section of the community. Such will tend towards the slave State.

There is no provision of any kind in the English Act with relation to English public schools, which are thereby safeguarded. There is in Scotland a widespread feeling that there is a definite Government policy, which is not embodied in this Bill or any other Bill, and that that policy, in its application to Scotland, will result in higher education for any Scotsman not being obtainable in Scotland but being obtainable only in England through English public schools and the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. There is widespread fear that the Scottish universities are to be reduced, further than they have been reduced, to the level of provincial technical colleges, and that only through Oxford and Cambridge can the higher administrative posts be filled. I have no objection—rather the reverse—to people leaving a Scottish university and furthering their education at Oxford and Cambridge, but do not make it only Oxford and Cambridge. Let them go also, as we hope after the war they will be able to go, to the universities of Europe and the United States, as they did at one time. If you limit them to the English universities, you thereby put the stamp of an alien educational system upon Scotland. It is considered that it is already a handicap to have a sound Scottish education if it is desired to fill some of the higher administrative posts in Scotland. We find that these tendencies make many people in Scotland fear that there is a real desire to wipe out the best traditions of Scottish education.

In Clause 36, the duty is laid upon the authorities to provide milk and meals for school children. The provision of milk for school children has done a great deal for the health and nutrition of the children. There is, however, one thing to be noted. Where midday meals are provided at school and the fathers have midday meals at their works canteens, what happens at home to the mother and the children under school age, who are the most important to safeguard in the whole community, from the nutrition point of view? I have the opportunity to enter many homes, and my observation is that the nutrition of these people tends to suffer. In passing legislation of this kind, not only should the desired object be kept in mind, but the reactions of the people to social changes should be noted, for we are not yet dealing with robots, but with people who react in certain ways to certain things. If the Government provide meals for school children, they need not think that, thereby, the responsibility of the State for the prosperity of the homes of the people is no longer theirs.

Without prosperous homes, we need not expect any education of any value. We find that the best traditions come through the homes and that the best sense of values comes through the homes, and not through the schools, however good. In Scotland to-day it is particularly true that the best of Scottish traditions does not come from outside the homes. Tradition, if it is good, is a good thing, but tradition unleavened by any contemporary wisdom is like a barbarous rite. I regret that I have to utter this platitude in the absence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill).

There is no mention in this Bill, except in the by going, of Gaelic teaching. Many hon. Members may be rather surprised when they realise that in those districts in Scotland where Gaelic is the mother tongue, the young children are taught arithmetic and other subjects through the medium not of their own tongue, but of another tongue which they have not yet learned. If such conditions operated in West Africa, or in some out-of-the-way place in South America, there would be an unholy row about it, but because it occurs in Scotland it does not matter. It is very bad for a child to have to learn subjects like arithmetic in a language with which it is not familiar. I hope that the Secretary of State will take these matters into consideration, and will recognise that such matters should come within the purview of a Bill such as this, and not only administrative arrangements.

There is a sign in this Bill of a minor repentance. I refer to the half-and-half introduction of the ad hoc committee, abolished by the 1929 Act, which was opposed throughout the length and breadth of Scotland by a majority of the people and of local authorities and Parliamentary representatives, and which has done no good for Scottish education. In this Bill we find a rather comic compromise. It would be very much better to go one way or the other. The Bill has, in fact, alienated both sections of opinion and I do not think it is very workable in its present form.

The provisions seem to me to be of two kinds. The first kind provides for things which are already possible, and the second provides for things which are not possible in practice at the present moment, because the men and the materials are not available. Since 1918, it has been legally possible to extend the school-leaving age. I do not see any sign of it being extended in the near future, in spite of this Bill. We must remember that just now the standards of teaching for children under 14 are being lowered, because there are far too many pupils in each class. There are as many as 55 pupils and more being taught—or rather an attempt is being made to teach them—in many of the schools in Scotland. Surely that is one of the first things which should be seen to.

There is little to be said for bringing in this Bill at this time. It may be that there are party considerations which make it necessary to introduce this Bill just now, but I happen to be more interested in the education and the welfare of the people of Scotland than in any party consideration. We need a real programme for rebuilding our educational system in Scotland. We need a thorough-going measure of educational reform in Scotland. I hope the Secretary of State will assist us in building up the only democratic body which can put through such a measure of reform in Scotland. I refer to a Scottish Parliament.

6.6 p.m.

It is my happy lot to offer my hearty congratulations to the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. McIntyre) on a most eloquent, forthright and able maiden speech on a subject in which all Scotsmen are deeply interested and upon which they can generally speak well—the subject of Scottish education. We have been particularly fortunate in hearing his views, speaking as he does for himself in this House, and I, for one, found to my surprise that I differed from him practically not at all in 90 per cent. of his remarks, for I think that on the need for reform and improvement in Scottish education, all Scottish Members of Parliament are completely united. I hope we may have the privilege of hearing the hon. Member on other occasions on other subjects, with particular reference to Scottish needs and requirements.

I am among those—and I think there is probably united feeling among Scottish Members here—who feel that this Bill, so far as it goes, is a good Bill and worthy of our support. The Secretary of State, in his opening remarks, was good enough to make special reference to the assistance which he said he had received from the members of the Scottish Advisory Council on Education of which I am a humble member. Indeed, the Scottish Advisory Council feel highly pleased and satisfied with the vast majority of the proposals of the Bill so far as it goes, but I am among those who feel that the Bill does not carry us very far over the whole field of education. It is, in fact, largely a machinery and administrative Bill, and it consolidates previous Acts which needed to be brought together into one Bill, but, as other speakers to-day have said, it does not go very deeply into the need for reform in Scottish education, and I for one deplore the fact that it touches so little on the vitally important question of the development to the maximum possible degree, in the nearest possible future, of the whole question of technical education. It is true that the Bill tightens up an existing situation, that it uses more powerful words with regard to what the local authorities shall do, and what it shall be their duty to do in connection with educational matters, whereas previous Bills used milder phrases such as "may." But, in fact, to those of us who have read previous Scottish Education Bills within the last 20 years, there are not very many matters of major policy in this Bill, that were not included in previous Bills but which have not been implemented for one reason or another. This Bill brings them in again—rubs them in again—and calls the attention of the local authorities to the fact that not only "may" they do these things, but that it shall be their duty to do these things. For that reason, it is a more powerful and impressive Bill than previous Bills in that regard.

I welcome the fact that many of the recommendations of the Advisory Council have been embodied in the Bill. But there are many more recommendations of a vital character in connection with Scottish education, which have not been embodied in the Bill, because they have not yet been made. The Secretary of State has said that the questions of primary education and secondary education, and the big question of technical education, still remain to be reported upon by the Advisory Council and that they are deeply engaged on those matters at the present time. It would seem that the Bill has the power within it to implement these recommendations, if the Secretary of State or the local authorities so desire. I agree with those who have felt unhappy because the question of the size of classes, which is rightly such a sore point with so many, has not been brought into the Bill in some way. On the other hand, it would perhaps be unwise to legislate immediately with regard to the size of classes, when we have not anything like sufficient teachers for the purpose of carrying out such legislation. I am convinced, however, that all who understand anything of education, and I firmly believe the Secretary of State and those who will administer this Bill, are determined that the size of classes must be reduced to reasonable levels at the earliest possible date and certainly no class should exceed 30 in any school in Scotland.

I wish there were less rigidity of mind in the attitude towards education in Scotland. I think it was the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay) who used that expression in an eloquent, interesting and inspiring speech. I think there is a good deal in what he said. There is too much bureaucracy, both central and local, in our educational system. I think we ought to listen more to the views of the teachers, and those who have been trained in educa- tion. We are apt to concentrate too much upon a rigidity of administration and not enough upon the human side and the more technical side on which the teachers themselves are well able to advise. I would like to see a good deal more freedom of initiative given in connection with the actual education in the schools, and in connection with the curricula. I want to go on record as being among those who think it high time that the whole examination and certificate system in Scotland was reformed and amended. I am sure it is out of date. It is a mistake to cram these young children to the extent that they have to be crammed in some cases for the purpose of passing school certificate examinations at the earliest possible date. The recommendation for extending the school-leaving age to 15 should improve that position. We should be able to put back to a later age the passing of these school certificate examinations which are being passed at the present time by children at far too early an age. It is no test of knowledge and ability to have facts and figures crammed into one, at the age of 13 or 14. At 16 and later it is some test, and some kind of test is required for those entering industry and other avocations. I hope the opportunity will be taken to extend the school-leaving age, and to put back the certificate examinations to a later date and amend them in many respects.

I now come to what I look upon as the major controversial part of the Bill, and that is the question of the administrative Clauses. For myself, I prefer the present Bill to the first edition. I never liked the first edition from the point of view of its administrative Clauses. I was not able to share the confidence of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in his ideas of special local education committees, as represented in the first Bill. I should have liked to see local education committees having the right to co-opt, but on the whole I feel that this second Bill is a substantial improvement on the first in that respect and in other respects.

With regard to administration, if is a compromise. Admittedly, the Bill is a Coalition Government Bill. It would be fantastic to split our unity and risk not getting the Bill through in the very short space of time that may be available, simply because some hold different views from others, with regard to the ideal method of administration. There are those, and I am among them, who would prefer to go back to the full ad hoc system while others are fundamentally against it. The Bill is a reasonable compromise. I would urge and implore my colleagues in all parts of the House, not to endanger the major portion of the Bill being passed, for it is a grand Bill, which Scotland needs and which we must have early. Let us not risk the loss of the Bill because we are not able to agree with each other on the administrative Clauses. If there is a real danger of the Committee stage lingering on, through controversy on this vital issue, I would prefer that the Secretary of State for Scotland withdrew the administrative Clauses—I hope such a situation will not be reached—and allowed us to go back to the status quo with a promise that he would set up a Select Committee at the earliest possible moment to examine the administration of education in Scotland, and report. No doubt legislation would be based upon the report. I hope that that will not need to be done. I hope there will be sufficient unity among Scottish Members to pass the Bill without undue delay. It would be deplorable if we allowed the Bill to be broken on differences of opinion in connection with administration.

I will conclude with the considered opinion on this issue of the Advisory Council on Education, come to only on Friday last, unanimously. We had a special session at the request of the Secretary of State, in order to give our final, considered opinion on the major features of the Bill. This is what they say with regard to the point to which I have just been referring:

May I interrupt the hon. and gallant Member? I hope I am mistaken, but I think he interpolated one or two phrases which were not exactly in the resolution passed by the Council.

I tried to remember what the hon. and gallant Member said. He said that the Council earnestly hoped that the Secretary of State for Scotland would see fit to withdraw Clauses 45, 46 and 47, if necessary. As a matter of fact, the last words are not there at all. The Council's resolution was perfectly plain. They earnestly hoped

"that the Secretary of State for Scotland would see his way to drop those Clauses, as being highly contentious."

There was no question; it was because they were contentious.

I do not think that the hon. Member needed to pick me up on that point. I read the words "highly contentious." The whole point of the Council's resolution was "if it becomes necessary." If it becomes so highly contentious as to endanger the Bill, then these are the Council's suggestions as to the procedure. I do not want to be misunderstood. I think that was the feeling of the Council. I hope that the Bill will be passed and that there will be another Education Bill before long, as this one does not touch anything like as many matters as it might. I hope sincerely that we shall maintain to the very end the unity which is so important on this vital matter, but obviously we have not much longer to go, before we can be as disunited as ever we like.

6.21 p.m.

I also offer my congratulations to the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. McIntyre) on his very able maiden speech. He has promised that there are others coming along, which may mean that some of us will have to make room for them; but, as one Scottish Nationalist to another, I congratulate him on the speech he has delivered this afternoon.

I wish I could congratulate the Secretary of State for Scotland on the Bill. With one or two minor reservations, I wholeheartedly accept the first two Parts of the Bill, those outlining the obligations of education authorities and of parents for seeing that children are instructed and attend school, and I have no fault to find. When I come to the administrative parts, I must confess myself in the minority of our party, to which the hon. Member for Greenock (Mr. McNeil) referred when he was speaking for the majority. Of all the systems of administration that I have known, I prefer the ad hoc system, without qualification. Education is sufficiently important to have a body elected to deal with it. Of the old school board system which we knew in the early days, and which gave place to the local authority elected on the ad hoc principle by proportional representation, and the system that we have had since 1929, I prefer the ad hoc system. That is my personal view of the administration.

Before I say more about that, I would make one or two comments on the first two Parts of the Bill. I welcome the power given to local education authorities to set up nursery classes or nursery schools. It is good that children between two and five years of age should be attracted to the school as a centre. I am certain that teachers could devise means by which children between two and five could be attracted there, not by giving them anything in the nature of the education that they would have to start on at five years of age but something that would attract the young children. I welcome these provisions in the Bill. We have had experience of nursery schools during the war. Many have been set up as a war measure to enable mothers to go to work. It is a question whether that part of the Bill will make a great deal of progress during the next few years. Authorities will have some difficulty in establishing nursery classes and schools. We shall have to get over the prejudices of the mothers who want to look after their own children between the ages of two and five, and we shall always have a pull from them against nursery classes and schools up to the age of five when children are compelled to attend school for education.

I welcome the provisions for further education. They are very important, I welcome the junior colleges that are proposed, and I hope that between the ages of 12 and 18 there will be a recasting of the type of education that is given. I am all in favour of giving classical education to the young in Scotland, if their minds are bent in that direction, but I am also in favour of education authorities having power to set up technical colleges or schools, or whatever institution is required, to give our young men and young women a better understanding of the work they will have to perform when they enter industry at 15. In many cases, young people go into industry without having the slightest knowledge of what the industry is intended to do, or being acquainted with what they will have to learn. There should be very great extension of technical education in junior colleges and technical institutions.

In the future we shall have a great struggle as a nation to keep our place among the industrial nations of the world. The nation with the best educated workers will prosper most, when keen competition comes in the markets of the world. I would like to see a great extension of technical and other education to prepare our young men and young women for the vocations they will have to follow when they reach working age. For example, there was a time when anybody could enter a coal mine and could learn in a few days all the tricks necessary to work there. We are moving into a different world, even in the mining industry, which is becoming very highly mechanised. Before boys are sent to work in coal mines they should have a good understanding of what they have to face when they go to work in those places.

I do not wish to take up too much time in dealing with the first two Parts of the Bill, because as other speakers have indicated, Part III is the one over which we will have the most controversy. I have made my own confession of faith so far as the administrative body is concerned. I have already said that I prefer a body elected by the electors to deal with education. So far as I can understand the present position we have before us three schemes. We have one which was presented to us before Christmas. We have one in the form of the Bill which is now under discussion, but the Secretary of State, in his speech, has made it clear that the reception given to the Bill as it stands to-day has been such as to justify him to seek to abandon what is in this present Bill. He says that the bodies that have been consulted are against this compromise, this body that is to be partly selected from the county councils and the representatives of religious bodies—who are there because allowance has been made under previous Acts for religious bodies to be represented on the education committees—and is also to include a certain number elected by local government electors. He says that the system which is now before us has had such a bad reception that he is prepared to abandon it. Where are we? What are we to have in its place?

Evidently the Secretary of State is prepared to accept the present system, whereby the education committee is a committee of the county councils and a committee of the four big city councils, with religious members added and some members co-opted because of their interest in education. What is the good of the Secretary of State glossing over the fact that there is deep discontent with this present system? He has referred to the fact that the Convention of Burghs are opposed to the continuance of the present system, and I am not surprised. He says it is impossible to have the system which has already been suggested, namely, that the four large cities should be left outside the working of the Bill and that a different system should be adopted for the county areas. There may be objections to that, but I want the House to realise that in the body which is now administering education there are certain conflicting interests that cannot be reconciled. I can understand the cities objecting to having an education authority election in addition to the election for their municipal representatives, but in most of the county areas there are three different interests. There are the rural areas, the county councils' own districts which are represented on the county council and there are the small burghs, who are also represented on the county councils, and the large burghs, which are compelled to be represented on the county council for education alone. There may be one or two large burghs that have other small interests in county council affairs.

Until the passing of the Local Government Act, 1929, the large burghs administered all their affairs, including education, but they were compelled under that Act to come into the county council for education purposes. It is quite true that in order to give them the appearance of getting justice and fair play the large burghs were given a large number of representatives on the county council. But it is the education committee, not the county council, which deals with education, and unless these large burghs are properly represented on the education committee their representation on the county council is a pure farce. Take my own burgh, one of the large burghs in the County of Fife. We have 12 representatives on the county council, but there are only four on the education committee, and I venture to say that apart from those four, the others have only a very vague notion about what goes on inside the education committee.

That system cannot continue, and the Secretary of State may as well face up to the fact that there is strong opposition from the burgh organisations in Scotland against the continuance of this system, and with good justification. When the Local Government Act, 1929, was passed it did not deal only with the reorganisation of our local government system; it dealt with de-rating as well. Agriculture was very largely de-rated, and we find that the valuation for rating purposes has been lowered in the county areas whereas there has been no lowering within the burghs, and we find the burghs making a large contribution towards the education funds as a result of the de-rating that has taken place in the county areas.

I would like to give one or two figures on the point with which I am now dealing—the contribution that burgh authorities have to make in regard to education. Let us take the burgh from which I come, the burgh of Dunfermline, and Kirkcaldy. It is interesting to compare the figures of the amount paid by burghs for education before and after the present system was introduced. Before the 1929 Act was passed, when we had the Fife Education Authority, the burgh of Dunfermline, in 1927–28, was requisitioned for £45,175, and in 1929–30, just before the change was made, the figure was £48,455. Now that education has been handed over to the Fife County Council, how has that affected the burgh's contribution to the education fund? In 1930–31 it was £55,599, in 1942–43, £59,366 and the estimate for the current year is £71,000. So the amount rises year after year. We have two large burghs in the County of Fife. Let us see what they contribute as against the rest of the county, and in the rest of the county there are a very large number of small burghs. In 1943–44, the Fife County Council raised, for educational purposes, £383,037, and the two large burghs of Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline contributed £128,577. In the current year of 1944–45 the county council has raised £410,937 and Dunfermline and Kirkcaldy burghs have contributed £138,136. The representation of these burghs on the Education Committee is not in proportion to what they contribute to the education fund, and the Secretary of State might as well face up to the position, that if there is to be taxation there will also have to be representation, and whether that is ad hoc or any other system, it will be necessary to surmount the opposition of the burghs on this question of proper representation.

As to what are called small burghs in Scotland, I will give two figures in regard to another burgh, in which I lived not very long ago, and which I still represent in this House—Cowdenbeath. In 1930–31, just after the change was made, that burgh contributed £11,421. This year it is contributing £12,355. That is a small burgh. Here are the large burghs and the small burghs, and these are the sums that are requisitioned by the county council, but representation on the education committee is not in keeping with the amounts they contribute to the education fund.

Does that £12,000 anywhere near represent the education costs in Cowdenbeath?

I think it is contributing towards education far outside the boundaries of the burgh of Cowdenbeath, as are also the contributions being made from the burgh of Dunfermline.

We may as well face another fact on the financial side of this question, which is that if we are to have education framed along the lines indicated in this Measure—and I am in favour of all the improvements foreshadowed in it—it will mean a very considerable increase in what these burghs, and the counties as well, are con- tributing towards education. There will be increases in education rates, whether we have the present system or the system which is proposed in the Measure. I do not propose to discuss the size of classes, though I want to see the classes reduced to 30, because I think that that number is sufficient for a teacher to handle. I am also in favour of the change in regard to teachers' salaries. Some education committees are not playing the game, and are not paying teachers a proper scale, and I welcome the fact that the matter is to be put into the hands of the Secretary of State so that there shall be greater equality of treatment.

I know that other Members wish to take part, and I have said what I wanted to say, particularly with regard to administration. That will be the burning question on the Committee stage. It will be interesting to see whether the Secretary of State accepts the advice of the Advisory Council, to drop these Clauses and to continue our present system of administration until we can get a new Education Bill. I am disappointed with this Bill inasmuch as I expected greater co-ordination, fewer references to Acts that have been passed before; a co-ordinating Bill, that would have wiped out references to the Act of 1872 and other Acts passed since then; a complete Education Bill. That has not been possible in the time, and—this is much more regrettable—we are told that it is not going to be possible to hammer out a proper system of education. We are told that we must get this Bill on the Statute Book as early as possible, and that we shall be prevented from adopting a system which would give fair play to all interests represented on our education authorities in Scotland. I say candidly that, bearing in mind the Acts of 1918 and 1929, far greater progress was made in education before than has been made under the present system. If the Secretary of State has nothing better to offer than a continuation of this system, he may be prepared for the same dissatisfaction to be expressed by the Convention of Royal Burghs and the other organisations that speak for burghs in Scotland as we have had in the past.

6.49 p.m.

I want to make two points in connection with this Bill. I think we all agree that the first two Parts of the Bill, in which there is very little material for controversy, can be of considerable benefit to the country. There is no area likely to benefit more than those parts which have difficult, distant, outlying valleys where the difficulties of bringing children to school have always been a cause of trouble. I think this Bill will help considerably in that respect.

I want to stress the worry caused to many of us by the difficulty which we are going to face through the shortage of teachers. The Secretary of State told us plainly that he realised that that was going to be a problem. I understood from his words that the only hope at present was that the rise in salaries would attract more people to this profession. I hope that it will, but I feel that it is not entirely a question of salary. We all agree that, irrespective of any shortage of teachers, this House should insist that the teachers of Scotland are adequately paid. I would not like it to be thought that the chief reason why the scales are being revised is to secure a larger entry into the ranks. Unless we secure a very much larger entry we shall be confronted for many years with difficulties both in raising the school age and in securing smaller classes. I do not believe that it is entirely a question of pay. Not many years ago, certainly during the last century, Scotland produced as fine and adequate a class of teachers as any other country in the world. I do not believe that anyone would suggest that it was the rate of pay in those days that attracted the very highest class in Scotland to the teaching profession. I do not know if we shall be able to think of other alterations which will tend to make the teaching profession more attractive. This shortage, we must agree, is one of the chief dangers to progress at present.

My second point is that we are getting further and further away from the time when the parents took an active part in the education of their children. You could read from cover to cover of this Bill, and the only allusions to parents that you would find are allusions to bad parents, who, I believe, are a very small minority of the parents in Scotland. There was a time when Scotland probably led the world in education. The impetus which produced that high standard came from the parents. I believe that, given the chance, parents in Scotland would be every bit as keen to-day as they were then to take their share in looking after Scottish education. At present there is a very great gulf between the average parent in Scotland and the education committee. Whatever their feelings may be, parents are only to a very limited extent consulted, or in many cases even thought of. We have reached a stage where there is a tendency for Scottish parents to consider that the whole question of education is something that belongs to others than themselves, and that they need not worry about it. That state of mind cannot be good for the children of Scotland. If it were not for the parents, we should not have the children. When all is said and done, I still believe that the parental influence and the influence of the home have a more lasting effect on the character of the child, than the influence of the various schoolmasters through whose hands the child passes. I regret that I am not able to suggest how parents can be brought more actively into contact with the management, but it seems that we have progressed so far along the road of State control that now the only part the parent has to play is to contribute the child, and in most cases to contribute towards the rates for education. We talk about democratic systems and such like. If we could manage so that the individual parent felt that he had some responsibility, however small, it would increase the parent's interest in the education of the child, and could only be of benefit to education as a whole.

As regards Part III, which is much the most important part of the Bill, it looks as if we shall have considerable controversy on the Committee stage. I think all Scottish Members are very keen on education, and we must realise the necessity of getting this Bill passed in the present Session. I hope that the Secretary of State, with his usual tact, will realise the viewpoints of all the different parties on these Clauses. I hope that, by each of us giving way on some of the minor points, we shall secure a fairly rapid passage through the Committee stage. But I would like it to be realised that many of us feel very strongly on some of those contentious points in those four Clauses.

7.0 p.m.

It is evident from the discussions to-day that the cause of education, and interest in it, in Scotland go very far back indeed. It is not often realised that, of the four universities, three of them were founded before the Reformation. In the year 1413, Pope Benedict XIII after a series of Papal Bulls established the university of St. Andrews. In 1450, owing to the influence of Bishop Turnbull, who was greatly under the influence of the Renaissance, and due to the act of Pope Nicholas V, the City of Glasgow had its university founded. In the great language in which it was set up, it was said that:

At the Reformation, John Knox and his coadjutors, in their "First Book of Discipline," demanded for Scotland, first of all, a school and schoolmaster for every parish, and secondly, for small towns and populous villages, a grammar school teaching the Latin tongue, and in large towns, a college and so forth. In generation after generation, complaint was made that this grand scheme had never been put into operation, owing, it was said, to the rapacity of the nobles who would not provide the money nor levy a rate on themselves to make this scheme possible, until, in 1696, there was passed an Act which changed the whole complexion of affairs. The Commissioners of Supply were given power to make a demand for the repayment and recovery from the recalcitrant nobles and tenants and to secure, at least, that there should be a schoolmaster in every parish. The tribute was paid by Macaulay in this House on the 19th. April, 1847, in which he referred to this Act and said:

One great effect of the system of education in Scotland was that the teachers, first of all, must not under the Acts of 1696 and 1803 occupy a house of more than two rooms, one of these being a kitchen. Not only so, but the salaries, to which some reference has been made, were of the poorest possible. For example, under the Act of 1696 the teacher was to have not less than 100 marks and not more than 200; that is to say, his salary was not to be less than £5 11s. 1½d. and not more than £11 2s. 3d. That was the condition and one of the weaknesses of education in Scotland, and it is no wonder that in 1782 a petition was presented by 900 schoolmasters in Scotland saying that, of that number, Even in those times, there were fits of economy that took local authorities. For example, the town of Linlithgow called their schoolmaster of the grammar school before them and explained that the burden of his salary, which was £22 4s. 5d., was a very grievous burden on the town, and,

So every three years the little controversy came up anew and I said, "What I have written I have written," and I stood for "well equipped buildings and well paid teachers, without prefix or affix, and let the ratepayers reap the benefits." But there was one other great defect in Scottish education. This was the defect that, very largely, the whole school, of all ages and all attainments, was taught together often by one teacher, and if any hon. Members wish for an hour's entertainment, they will find it in the Report of the Commission that sat from 1864 until 1867. That Commission sat for those three years, and I will give only three ex- tracts. The first is in regard to a man who had a school in a wretched cellar at Barrowfield Toll, Glasgow, where he held relays of schools and he admitted that he had fallen into disrepute because he was found to have given out more leaving certificates at 6d. per head than he had of scholars in all his schools.

The second extract relates to a school at Calton, Glasgow, which had very bad conditions in every way. There were 170 pupils jammed together in a room 27 ft. by 21 ft. and only one teacher, with no monitor to assist. The third case was a case in Hutchesontown. Men often took to teaching when they had failed in other businesses. Many of these men had failed in other businesses and they did not succeed in education save in the matter of gathering school pence. This teacher told the Commission that he would present to them the "most qualifiedest" boy who had even been in the school. He said also that this was one of his principles: He was at all times willing to teach Popery or Protestantism, either together or in turn as would suit the wish of the parents, and so it was that in these grand old days of idealist Scottish education they solved the religious difficulty, and so it was that they anticipated the modern impossible demand: "religious instruction according to the desires of the parents." That was the welter of confusion that existed in our country, and Robert Owen—and I have not heard his name in this Debate—

Robert Owen was a Welshman, but that did not greatly detract from him. His real usefulness began when he came to New Lanark, but what did he do there? He gathered the pupils together, and erected commodious halls for them and arranged them according to age and attainment. That was in 1810, and in 1816 he established the first infant school in Great Britain; and not only so, he had broad notions. He said he wanted to give

I now take up the subject to which reference has been made in Clause 11, and I am greatly disturbed about the provisions there made for paying fees in our schools. I grant that it is limited, but still fees may be paid "in some, or all the schools." What I fear is, especially if you had a local government which was friendly towards the fee-paying idea, that you might sabotage the grand system of free secondary education that we have built up in Scotland. May I give the House one example? It is of the school I know best—Whitehall School, Glasgow, entirely non-fee-paying. My children attended it. It is entirely free secondary education, with 109 teachers on the staff and 2,120 pupils on the roll. In the porch hall they have the names and portraits of no fewer than five Whitehill School old boys who won the blue riband of the University of Glasgow, namely, the Snell Exhibition to take them to Oxford. Three of the professors in Glasgow University to-day are old Whitehill School boys. There are professors and lecturers in many colleges in this country and far beyond it, and there are a large number of front-rank medical men—all old boys of this school.

There are some people who will not send their children to free schools. They say that there are not the same "class" of children at the non-fee-paying schools. It is often said by opponents of free education in Glasgow that you only properly value that for which you pay. I know a lady who would not send her boys to that non-fee-paying school that I have described. She sent them, two miles each way, to Elm Bank Street, to the High School, where she had the luxury of paying fees. Would you believe it, the fees were never paid, and but for the intervention of a colleague of mine she would have been brought up in the summary debt court in the City of Glasgow for the non-payment of fees owing to the High School. I say, snobbery could not further go. I am bound to oppose the torpedoing of the free system that we have at present. It comes from the English Measure.

I am not saying that it is new. It is new in the whole movement I have described, and I have profound knowledge of the matter, as the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) would agree, because of my own efforts and achievements in regard to the securing of these non-fee-paying schools. There is something new in it if you allow fee paying in a way which will destroy prejudice and overthrow the grand system of free secondary education. I stand by that. It is said that it is in the English Measure.

My hon. Friend was arguing as if it was the bringing in of a new system.

In the sense in which I am referring to the matter. If you brought in a fee-paying system, however you limit it, you would torpedo and destroy the present system which has been carried on in such a wonderful way and been a great success. This is perhaps the last will and dying testament of the Coalition. To quote Burns, it is "the death and dying words of poor Mailie." The Coalition seems to be about to break up. This is a kind of death-bed gift from them. I will close because I have taken up my full time, but I want to address an appeal to my old comrade in arms the Secretary of State for Scotland. I never think of him as going back on his principles, as I know him too well. There is a verse of a hymn which comes to me and I hope, as he listens to me, that "chords that were broken will vibrate once more." And so may I give, in the presence of our Chief Whip, another musical illustration:

"Seated one day at the organ,

I was weary and ill at ease—"

because of some of the things that are in this Bill—

"And my fingers wander'd idly

Over the noisy keys;

But I struck one chord of music,

Like the sound of a great Amen."

I will only change that into this. I trust that now my fingers have wandered over the noisy keys, perhaps not too effectively, it may be true that I have struck a note to which my good and highly esteemed Friend, on this subject on which I feel so strongly, may yet respond with "a grand Amen."

Business of the House

7.25 p.m.

I beg to move,

"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), for One hour after a Quarter-past Nine O'clock."

Could not the Motion be modified so as not to state when the Debate is to stop?

The Motion has to be moved without Question or Debate.

Question put, and agreed to.

Perhaps I might be allowed to point out to the House that, if all subsequent speeches are to take up half an hour, as some have done lately, we shall not get many more.

Education (Scotland) Bill

Question again proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

7.28 p.m.

I am sorry I caught your eye, Mr. Speaker, at the moment when you are asking for shorter speeches, but I will endeavour to keep within rather tighter limits than some of my predecessors in the Debate. I apologise to the hon. Member for Coatbridge (Mr. Barr) for interrupting the very delightful speech he delivered and asking him to quote Blake. I did so out of a bit of personal vanity. I had a very sound classical education in what I regard as one of the finest schools of Scotland, a grammar school for the education of poor boys, but it had departed somewhat from that status by the time I arrived there. I was granted a diploma from Glasgow University, also in Classics, but now at my advanced age the only thing I can recall of all the many years I ground at Greek are the great words, "What I have written, I have written." I can just remember that, and I thought it was just within the bounds of possibility that the hon. Member for Coatbridge might have remembered that one also.

My favourite definition of education is the one which says that education is what is left to a man after he has forgotten all that he learned. I am afraid I have not remembered much but I take consolation out of this, that Robert Louis Stevenson—perhaps one of the finest figures that Scotland and Scottish education has produced—used to affirm with great satisfaction that he attended a class on Roman law in Edinburgh University and, after listening assiduously to 100 lectures on the subject, the only thing he could remember was that stillicide was not a crime and emphyteusis was not a disease; stillicide was the right to collect rainwater off a neighbour's roof and emphyteusis was a form of landlord. I, like my hon. Friend, feel that perhaps we Scots have been in the past, and are at the present, just a little too prone to pride ourselves on the superiority of our educational system. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] As long as the cheers come from Scotland, I am ready to appreciate them, but I do not feel that a Welsh Member has any right to utter ironical cheers, and I do not think that we have slipped so very far back yet, but that we could establish a lead. I think we start with a whole lot of natural advantages over our neighbours, both in England and in Wales, and if we really get going with education I think we may still do something about it.

I do not know how one distinguishes between the three Members for the Scottish Universities but I think it was the senior Member (Sir J. Graham Kerr), the one who has had experience in the teaching profession, who talked about this Bill as a wonderful Bill. With all the good will in the world towards the Secretary of State and the Bill, I cannot feel it deserves that. In fact when one goes through it all, one cannot find anything new in it. It affirms, and perhaps makes more regular, all the things that have been done in Scottish education. There are the junior colleges with compulsory one-day attendance, but there have been long years of attempts to establish this part-time continuation system, sometimes compulsory and sometimes voluntary. Up to now, however, every one of the experiments has produced very unsatisfactory results. I, myself, when teaching, had experience of a period when there were compulsory evening continuation classes for youngsters who had not reached a certain examination standard when they had attained school-leaving age. It was a shocking business to attempt to compel these youngsters to go on to compulsory continuation education after they had passed the compulsory age for attendance at school.

I cannot find anything in this Bill that lifts the Scottish attitude towards education to any higher level tout, frankly—as I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove)—I did not find anything in the English Bill that did that either. I am quite satisfied in my own mind that you do not solve the problem which this House has tried to solve by monkeying with the machinery. However you do it, I am quite sure you do not do it in that way. Somehow or other, we shall have to get the Scottish people of these days to have the enthusiasm for education that they have always pretended to have. We must get them to have that real enthusiasm, which seems to me to be the essential thing, and I do not know that this Bill does it; indeed, I do not know that a Bill can do it.

The right hon. Gentleman said one thing that I wanted to challenge. He stopped us from discussing curricula; he said it is dealt with by code. He debarred us from discussing the size of classes; he said that is dealt with by code. I know, but who makes codes? We can define curricula here if we want to, we can discuss the size of classes if we want to, so while I do not suggest that on the Second Reading of a Bill we should start to go into curricula, I think that before this Bill leaves the Scottish Grand Committee we should express ourselves very strongly on the size of classes. For many years now I have taken the view that if I were compelled to have only one educational advance, if I had to take my choice between raising the school age, developing higher education, and providing nursery schools, the one educational reform I would choose as being a really effective one would be the reduction in the size of classes to a maximum of 30 in every elementary school. The right hon. Gentleman quoted some figures showing that the average was only 36 or thereabouts—

Well, 32, but, to use a modern slang word, I think even that is a "phoney" figure. It reads well, but I am quite sure it is rubbish, and I am quite sure it is obtained by bringing in all the mentally and physically defective children's classes.

Then it brings in all the classes which are limited in size, and it brings in the headmaster and the headmistress as members of the teaching staff. I have been surrounded by the teaching profession all my days, and I have been a member of it. The hon. Member for the Scottish Universities was describing how he held his office as a Regius Professor at Glasgow University— aut vitam, aut culpam. I did not hold my position under a Glasgow authority under such terms. However, I had the very great distinction of being the first, and, I think, the only teacher who was ever dismissed by the school board—the only one who was ever dismissed by proper legal processes. I am very proud of the fact that I have had that great distinction in the course of a not very distinguished life, for it is good to hold a record for something.

I know perfectly well that when I used to read the statistics about the average number of pupils under an individual teacher, I wondered why it was that there were 65 sitting under me, and perhaps 78 under the person next door. You cannot educate children in these numbers. A colleague of mine, who had become cynical with the years, used to say, "Provide me with the proper weapons and I will teach a class of 90—I will not educate them but I will teach them." He always added the proviso that he must have the weapons, and that indicated the relationship there had to be between teacher and pupil, and it did not tend to create an educational atmosphere. You only get real education when you have a keen, interested teacher of a group of children sufficiently small to enable that teacher, while treating them as a whole, to study individual idiosyncrasies and where idiosyncrasies are something worse than that, to clear them out of that youngster's nature and mind. Those idiosyncrasies may be the beginnings perhaps of genius—and, mark you, the failure in the big elementary school is just as likely to be extraordinarily clever in some unusual direction as to be an extraordinarily bad case. But the teacher of a big class of 60 cannot take time to differentiate, cannot take time either to cope with the evil qualities in the so-called bad child, or to develop the good qualities in the unusual child. Therefore I say that Parliament should not leave it to code to decide this matter. Who makes the code? I can remember when I was teaching that a new code descended on top of us every year. We did not know who was responsible for its preparation, but it was the effective document on which the teachers had to work and upon which the school boards in the old days and, later on, the education authorities, had to work. It was official-made law. Admittedly there have been heads of the Scottish Education Department who were capable of doing good, progressive work in Scottish education in the preparation of these codes and in putting them over, and I would not attempt for one moment to say that the general details should not be left to these people, but big issues should be decided here and not in a backroom at St. Andrew's House.

With regard to fee-paying it is true, as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) said, that fee-paying is not being established by this Bill, but it has been given a cachet by the Scottish Office, by the present Secretary of State for Scotland and by the present Government—at a time when the whole idea is being very badly discredited amongst ordinary thinking people, when it is being very badly discredited in England, where it has been much more of a fetish than ever it was in Scotland, and the arguments that are used for its maintenance to-day are exactly the same arguments as were used for the maintenance of fee-paying in elementary schools. I am just old enough to remember that my parents had to pay a fee for me to go to a parish elementary school. I used to take a penny a week to school, or something like that. I was born in 1885, and that would be about 1900. About that time this fee was abolished and there was the same antagonism towards the abolition of fees in primary schools as there is now in the mind of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove. I was shocked and horrified to see him enter into a controversy in the Glasgow area, when the Glasgow City Council decided to abolish fees in the City high schools. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman and a distinguished retired professor of Glasgow University entered into a controversy in the Press to back up the people who are howling for the continuation of fees. Theirs is the mind which feels that the continuation of fees is something special they have to keep for their own good, which thinks that if they can shut out somebody who has not enough money in his pocket—

I may not have an opportunity of catching Mr. Speaker's eye, but I do not think the hon. Member need argue as if this was an attempt to prohibit those who do not pay a fee from going to school. This is giving a certain right of choice to a parent, and I would remind the hon. Member that a great friend of his, James Bridie, also rushed into print to back up in the strongest terms the attack which was made on one of the oldest schools in Glasgow and one of the greatest schools in Scotland.

James Bridie is a very good friend of mine indeed, and I would not dream of saying anything discredit able of him, but Bridie is a humorist and an utterance by him is not to be taken as being in the same category as one by the right hon. and gallant Gentle man, who has been a great public ad ministrator. It is wrong that those who have had all the advantages of secondary and university education—if they are advantages—should try to make it more difficult for the sons of those who are less fortunate—

Obviously, we cannot carry this matter further by means of question and answer across the Floor of the House, but I wish to register the strongest protest against the description, not the argument, which has been given by my hon. Friend.

I do not want to be unfair in this matter because I was in a controversy in the West of Scotland. A councillor belonging to my party moved it and practically the whole of the Labour Party on the Council supported it, and it was carried. I said to my councillor, "If you like to run a public meeting on this subject I will join you." We did, and a bunch of hooligans from high schools and other places came to the hall. I never met such a bunch of hooligans like those who had come to defend fee-paying in secondary schools. I did not hear a single argument that would justify fee-paying in those schools. I also resent very much the fact that the Scottish Universities raised their fees last year by a substantial sum, and that this House and Secretary of State for Scotland were completely powerless to do anything about it. If Scotland is to hold a big place in world affairs we shall never do it on the basis of quantity. There are only some 5,000,000 of us in the country, and quantitatively we can never look at England, the United States of America or Soviet Russia. But qualitatively we can look at anyone if we go the right way about it. To do that it will mean that you will have to rake about in the back streets of Bridgeton, the slums of Gorbals, the dark places of Edinburgh, and the like, in order to find out your clever boys and girls, supposing their parents are slum dwellers, and their children are clever enough to go the whole, distance.

If we can make a boy into a great physician or a great surgeon he must have his chance. If we can make him into a great engineer, scientist, philosopher, sociologist or artisan he must have his chance. If we are going to teach the world something new in the way of mechanical advances we must go into the back streets and look for the best material. A lot of it is there. A trivial £4, £5, or £10, which is nothing to the nation, may be a tremendous barrier in a poor home. When this Bill goes into Committee and we get at grips with its detailed problems—and I trust I shall be physically fit enough to take my part—I hope we shall arouse in Scotland a great enthusiasm for education for children, adolescents and adults, and that we shall see that every potentially clever child who can be developed to higher levels will be enabled to reach those higher levels.

7.55 p.m.

I am glad to have been called, after my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), partly in order to express what I am sure is the feeling of the whole House, the pleasure we have at seeing him once again among us, and having regained all his vigour and colour, such as we have seen in the speech which he has just delivered. I am all the more glad to follow my hon. Friend because he has struck the note which I wanted to strike. This Bill will add largely to the burden which the taxpayers and ratepayers have to bear. The cost of education is to rise from £17,000,000 to £32,000,000 and it is natural that the taxpayers and ratepayers should ask what they are going to get for this great increase. The misfortune of this Bill is that it deals with almost everything except the thing that matters most—what are you trying to educate your children for, what are you trying to make of your rising generation? That is not in this Bill and it cannot be, but that is what matters about education. I have expressed my own opinion before that the education we are providing in Scotland is not good enough. Our boys and girls are being turned out inadequately equipped for this modern world in material, spiritual and cultural things. Scottish boys, when they come to London, suffer from a certain gaucherie that is a disadvantage to them, and which the English schools are somehow able to overcome.

Speaking personally, I would like to see my son so educated that when he has done with school he walks out not necessarily with his head packed with dates, facts and figures, but with his mind so developed that he wants to learn and gather much more than he ever got at school. I would like to see him with his mind so developed that he had sound judgment, that he could become a real citizen in the difficult period with which we shall be faced. These are the things education should provide, and there is no doubt that in the past we have suffered in Scotland from too narrow a conception of that object. We have been bound by the awful incubus of examinations which have determined everything that is done by the child from the day he starts school to the day he leaves. That is a bad system, and it must go. In place of that system there must come a new conception, the turning out of the child with a broader and better cultured mind. That, of course, involves more and better paid teachers, and much better equipped teachers. I do not wish to criticise teachers, but there is not one in Scotland who would not wish that his training had been better in the past. Training is too narrow. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay) said, in his most eloquent speech, the profession of teaching should be more easy to get into and out of, and teachers should be encouraged to have a broader grip of world affairs and business.

I would like to deal, however, with one or two other points in the time I have allotted to myself. Like most other Members, I accept the first two Parts of the Bill—indeed, I accept the Bill as a whole, and welcome it—which deal with the introduction of nursery schools, the raising of the school-leaving age, the introduction of junior colleges, the development of technical colleges and adult education. All that is admirable, and I am sure it meets with universal approval in Scotland. My right hon. Friend will have little or no difficulty in carrying through the particular Clauses which deal with those matters. But before I leave this matter I would like to make one comment on the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton.

I think he was a little ungenerous in his remarks about the junior colleges. As I conceive those new institutions, they are not to be simply a method of ensuring that a boy who fails to qualify at 14 shall qualify at 15. I hope that is not the conception. Up till now boys have left school at 14 and have got completely out of touch with the whole of the education and welfare system. They have been lost. They have gone into blind alley occupations, and thousands of them have suffered terribly. By the new system, as I conceive it, we shall ensure that boys and girls leaving school at 14, 15 or 16 will not lose touch with and be cut off from the care and guidance of the local authorities, the schools, the educational councils, and so on, but will be looked after, guided, and inspired until they reach maturity. I can foresee those junior colleges being linked up with the great youth movements of which my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay) knows so much. I can see them becoming the centre of a greatly increased and beneficent youth movement in the days to come. That is what I would like to see them do.

May I say that I do not want to depreciate this experiment in any way, nor to liken it to the previous ex- periment? I was only trying to indicate what has happened up till now.

I hope that in the new age into which we are entering, with the end of the war and the return of the soldiers, there will be that fire of enthusiasm for education of which the hon. Member spoke, and that our people in Scotland will treat this matter with the seriousness that it deserves.

I come now to administration, and here I am afraid I am directly at cross purposes with my right hon. Friend. I believe that the system of administration provided for in the Bill is a thoroughly bad one which will have to be removed. In expressing that view, I claim the support of three very important bodies of opinion in Scotland. In the first place, as my right hon. Friend has admitted, the local authorities, who have condemned it as an unworkable system. I shall try to explain later why I think it is unworkable. Secondly, it is condemned, as we have heard, by at least a minority of the Members of the Labour Party; and thirdly, it is most emphatically condemned by the Advisory Council on Education in Scotland. What is that Advisory Council? There are three hon. Members who belong to it—a member of the Labour Party, a Member of the Conservative Party, and myself. I think none of us will pretend that we take a very active part in it. The resolution on this matter which was passed by the Advisory Council has been read to the House. I was not at the meeting when it was passed, and therefore I am quite free to express my view. That Advisory Council is composed, as my right hon. Friend can confirm, of men of all parties—Labour men, members of the Glasgow Corporation, Liberals, Conservatives—and is a very wide and representative body and, I think I can say, a very able body. I have never in all my political life sat on a body which, in my opinion, was better qualified for the job given to it by the Government. That body, composed of educationists of long experience, unanimously and definitely condemned the system proposed in the Bill.

Why is that system condemned? What is it? It is this. The Secretary of State starts off by having a bias against co-option. He does not like it. What is wrong with co-option? It is adopted in almost every sphere of public life. There is a committee of any sort you like, there is an outstanding man whose advice it would be an advantage to have; therefore, he is co-opted. We do it in the House on many of our Committees. What is wrong with co-option? If, as my right hon. Friend says, it has in some places led merely to the co-option of the men who fail at the election for the local authorities, let us lay down regulations to make the choice different. I will support my right hon. Friend in any kind of regulations he may make. But he condemns and abolishes co-option, and in its place he produces this strange system of a special election for special committee members. It is really a most amazing thing for a man of his democratic views to do. There has never been anything like it. It is a most dangerous innovation. Let me illustrate. In the course of the next year or so, if I judge aright, we shall go through a most critical controversy in the matters of housing. There may well be a demand for special housing representatives in the housing committees of the local county councils. Why not? If we start this business, where will it end? It is a confession of weakness and of lack of confidence in the democratic system.

Take, for example, the Fife County Council. The electors vote for and return a group of men to manage their affairs. Unless these men individually and collectively are prepared to carry their responsibilities, they have no right to be on the county council. What are their responsibilities? They are the same as those of the Government and of this House—to see that all the things for which they are responsible, by direction of Parliament, are carried out in a proper way. It is a body elected directly by the people. It is a body which has the power to take money from the people and the responsibility for spending that money. That body, therefore, must be fully responsible for education as one of its services. If I am asked whether I would prefer a return to the ad hoc authority, my answer is unhesitatingly yes, but the ad hoc system was killed in 1929, and in my opinion it is killed for ever, and we shall never be able to return to it. If that is so, we must give the local authorities responsibility. We have no right to seek in the byways and highways of a special election for Mr. A and Mr. B and bring them in to deal with the job, without the usual responsibilities; they spend the ratepayers money, but the ratepayers cannot blame them for the way they are spending it: the responsibility lies elsewhere. Personally, I propose to oppose this plan through the Committee stage with all the force I can, and I am satisfied that I shall carry with me a very important part of Scottish opinion. The Advisory Council asked for the withdrawal of Clauses 44 (2), 45, 46 and 47. I will read the passage from their Resolution:

8.10 p.m.

I wish I could capture the mood of certainty with which the hon. Member always addresses the House, more particularly on the subject which he has just considered. I wish it all the more when I remember how his party, after the passing of the 1929 Act, after the General Election, after appealing to the constituencies, came back and the only thing that united them in this House, and the only thing that they could find on which to move an Amendment to the King's Speech, was a demand for the restoration of the directly elected local representatives to govern education. That was the only thing that they came back to impress upon the attention of the House from their contact with the people. At that time their arguments were put forward with the same certainty and conviction with which the hon. Member has just addressed the House. I envy him that power of being able to summon from Heaven the certainty that on this occasion wisdom has revealed to him and that he wishes to give the rest of the House the benefit of that revelation. I do not go as far as that.

I feel that the whole of Scotland is still in doubt as to how best education should be administered and is still feeling for the proper way. I think that the experiment proposed by the Bill is one which is well worth exploring, and I shall support it. The proposal brought forward by Lord Alness when he was Secretary for Scotland in the old days of 1918 was for an ad omnia authority, and it was the pressure of opinion in the House that produced the ad hoc authority. I was in a subordinate position in the Scottish administration when later the policy of the transfer from ad hoc to ad omnia was carried through. One argument which seemed very convincing then, and still seems convincing, is that the local authorities said they did not see their way to be responsible for finance if they were to be suddenly precepted upon by an outside authority for shillings in the £. The arguments for lifting some of the weight of educational administration from the shoulders of the general councillors were strong. Some hon. Members opposite at that time were all in favour of directly elected authorities. Apparently some have backslidden since, but some of us have felt it necessary to give the matter further consideration. The present Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary both expressed some preference then, which they have shown now in this Bill, for directly elected representatives in some way or another being brought into the system of Scottish education. I cannot feel that we have yet reached finality in the matter and, until we do, we must continue to explore the question. But that will be dealt with in Committee.

I did not rise specially to deal with that point, but to comment on the speech of the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), who speaks with unrivalled authority and unrivalled charm on this subject of education. We all welcome him back to the House. We particularly welcome the vigour and power with which he has returned, and I feel no desire to play gently with him, because he is in his full power and vigour and obviously in Committee will be able to enter joyously into the contest that lies before us. But I must register the most emphatic dissent from the picture that he gave us about the fee-paying Clause. He is the man who wishes to put up barriers. The Glasgow High School is open to children outside its particular area to-day. He wishes to put up a barrier and say that no child shall come from outside this small area into the Glasgow High School. Why? I have never seen any argument for it. No child shall come from the residential suburbs to mix with the children of the admittedly working class quarter in which the High School is situated.

Why does he wish to put up that barrier? I have never seen any argument in favour of it at all. It is said that this is democratic, and that it will lead to the mixing of the classes. It will do the very reverse. It will inevitably split the classes wider and wider apart. The residential suburbs will have schools where only children of residents in the area may be sent. The working class quarters will have schools where, by Statute, no child from any other part of the City may enter. I shall try to preserve the present Scottish system under which the mixing of the classes can take place. It is a good thing that it should take place and a bad thing that it should be stopped. If there was any suggestion that it would in any way put a barrier against the working class child, I should be strongly opposed to it. But there is no such barrier. If there was a shortage of places there would be an argument for it. It was not caused by a shortage of places, but by that inverted snobbery with which the English Bill reeks, and the hypocrisy and the definite misstatements of fact on which much of the case is based. People talk as if the English Bill had abolished fee paying schools. But the English Bill consolidates and elevates the fee paying school as long as it does not get any money from the public. Did the English Bill abolish Eton, Harrow, Winchester, and Marlborough? No. What it proposes to abolish is a thing like the Stratford-on-Avon Grammar School. No child from any other part of the country can go to the school of Shakespeare. That is barred, and it is done in the name of democracy. Does anyone propose to abolish the Glasgow Academy or Merchiston or Fettes or Loretto? Not a bit. The school that is chosen for abolition is the Glasgow High School, much the oldest, the most democratic of them all, or the Ayr Academy, one of the ancient foundations of Scotland. This is put forward as a democratic step.

From such a master of indignation as the hon. Member that is no small tribute. How many fee paying schools does the House think there are in England? They are not counted in scores or hundreds. There are 10,000. Yet it is put forward as a democratic advance that schools in Scotland should be prohibited by law from taking in any scholar by fee-paying from outside the bunch of streets in which that school is situated. I am astonished at my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton putting that argument forward, and I warn him that I shall challenge him in the strongest way when it comes before Committee. I do not want to go unchallenged on the Floor of this House as a democratic reform a suggestion to put up a barrier against any pupils getting into Glasgow High School unless they live within a certain number of yards of the gateway to that school. It is one of the biggest pieces of anti-democracy that has ever been suggested in the House.

I agree with my hon. Friend that it may yet be possible to discuss more extensive curricula, numbers in classes, and so on, because I agree with him that, unless we can rouse the enthusiasm of the people of Scotland for education, all this machinery will be to no purpose. He was a little unfair to the Secretary of State in suggesting that his own proposal was to go through Scotland and into the back streets of Bridgeton, to say nothing of the back streets of Kelvingrove; when he talks about a rough ride at his meeting, you do not know that you are born until you have fought an election in the dockside of Kelvingrove on the Tory side. You do not know what a rough election ride can be. My hon. Friend did my right hon. Friend a little less than justice. One of the reforms in this Bill is the disregarding of the university bursaries and of the Carnegie assistance in the allowances given to the students by the education authorities. It is a step towards the searching out of talent wherever it may be found for which my hon. Friend was pleading. The local authority has power to give bursaries and anything is disregarded that the student may obtain by the use of his talents in fair competition against his fellows or any assistance that may have been given to him by such things as the Carnegie Trust. It is a step I am glad to hear of because nothing is more discouraging to a young person than to put all his vim, or "smeddum" as we say in Scotland, into achieving a position and of having it recognised in a bursary, a cash basis if you like, such as we are proud to have in Scotland, than because of this to have his basic allowance correspondingly cut down. Obviously this proposal is a good step forward and it is one of the forward steps which this Bill takes.

The necessity of rousing enthusiasm will demand that we should discuss either on the Floor of the House or in Committee curricula and the numbers in classes. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that he was not sure of the position of Latin and Greek against the Diesel engine. There he struck a note which the whole House would do well to examine further. It involves the subjects which are being taught, and this magic by which, as was said in a thoughtful speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay), if you call a subject "celestial navigation," a boy will cycle miles at night and work for hours on a book of logarithms to learn. If, however, you say to the boy, "This is a book of logarithms," and give it to him in a school which is well lighted and warm, he will go to sleep or push the obnoxious document under the desk so that he can read "Comic Cuts." I have experienced it myself. When you willingly take up same abstruse subject, it is astonishing with what vigour you take it in. When, however, it is pushed down your neck by a teacher and you do not know the reason for it, your whole mind puts up a series of subconscious barriers against it getting into your mind, or, if it does get into your mind, from sticking there longer than it takes a loose nail to wriggle out of a hole in the wall. If we can find somewhere or other the secret of enthusiasm in education, we shall not have wasted our time.

I have had the opportunity recently of studying two systems of education far away from this country. One was the educational system of West Africa, a developing system where, in some cases, that enthusiasm does exist. I also had the opportunity of having a look at the educational system of Soviet Russia, where enthusiasm has also been obtained, and is being maintained, by the ruthless use of incentive to an extent which would make a teacher in this country feel most alarmed and the student more alarmed still. I am sure it will come as a shock to my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton to know that over one-sixth of the world the scholarships of the students at the universities are put up or cut down according to the figures in the class examinations, which is to say, the accuracy with which they have reproduced the views of their professors. If such a system had been applied when he or I was at Glasgow University we might have found our stipend reduced to a vanishing point. One way or other, however, they have succeeded in obtaining an educational system which has, as we have seen, given great results, and an enthusiasm which must be the envy of us all. If, in some way, we can recapture that enthusiasm we shall have done good. Opportunities will come for considering that in our discussions while the Bill is going through its various stages.

8.26 p.m.

The House has unanimously suspended the Standing Order so as to permit of as many Members as possible speaking, and I desire to do nothing that will hinder that object. The Secretary of State was, as he was entitled to be, somewhat laudatory about the achievements of Scottish education in the past, and that has been echoed by many Members, with perhaps slight hesitancy on the part of the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton). If that is the case, it is all the more important that we should recognise that, excellent as the machine that has functioned in the past has been, it has to be perfected. If there is one thing in which new ideas are necessary, it is in regard to education, and if the suggestions and proposals made in the House and in Committee have any value, that value will only be realised if there is an adequate machine to carry them out. I am inclined to think that there is weakness in the attitude of administration towards new ideas. That cannot be surprising, especially when we consider the many functions covered by the Secretary of State. I admit that he is effectively guided by his various Departments, but even with that advantage, his office is too over-weighted for anybody to be personally so interested as to keep track with the requirements of all his functions. He has to deal with agriculture and fisheries, and many speeches have been made in the House about that. He has to deal, too, with health, pensions, mental deficiency and police. Each of them, we have been informed in many speeches, is of the utmost importance.

None, however, transcends in importance the question of education. That being so, I am keen on having the matter of responsibility well-defined. It is not sufficiently well-defined when much of the administration is in the hands of a Department of the Secretary of State. The responsibility for education should be denned, and it should not be encumbered with other interests. Because of that, I feel that something should be done about a suggestion that has been made for the creation, if not of a Minister, at least of an Under-Secretary with the specific duty of being responsible for education. In England this is a matter for a Minister. I am inclined to think that the Minister functions in this matter in England because of the importance of the subject. It is just as important in Scotland, and therefore warrants the introduction of a Member of this House who will sit as an Under-Secretary and be responsible not only for answering Questions but for the initiative that should be placed behind any idea or proposal in this House.

It is as well to focus one's attention on what the problem will be when the Bill becomes an Act. Under Clauses 1 and 2 there is provision for nursery schools. Then there is secondary education to suit the aptitude and ability of different types of scholars. There are junior colleges for young people between the leaving age and 18 years of age. This point involves static curricula—methods of teaching relations with employers as well as in relation to different types of buildings and equipment—a very large subject in itself. Then there is the question of oral education and residential colleges. The largest voluntary body receiving oral education consists of no more than about 7,000 students. That in my opinion is deplorable. Then there are the development and encouragement of educational research. There is reference in the Bill to research. My reading of it is that it is rather vague, and something more specific will have to be done. There is a point which is not mentioned in the Bill but which requires consideration in the future, and that is cultural guidance for pupils in our secondary schools. Although it is not mentioned in the Bill, it is of sufficient importance to permit me to refer to it.

I now turn to a specific point, the wastage in secondary education. The curriculum in the senior secondary schools is intended to meet the requirements of the senior leaving certificates. In my opinion it does not suit the city of Glasgow, or any industrial town that I know in Scotland. I am informed that statistics show that of the pupils who entered the senior secondary course, only 16 per cent. ever took a certificate. In Glasgow the figure is 4 per cent.—an astonishing set of circumstances in a town such as Glasgow. Of between 25,000 and 30,000 pupils in the whole country, only 4,000 completed the whole course satisfactorily. The most important angle is not that indicated by the figures I have given, but the fact that it leaves 84 per cent. of those receiving secondary education who get an education unsuited to their aptitudes and capabilities. That is where the wastage is. In my opinion, the curriculum must be altered to meet the new concepts of social values which are not all academic.

I assume from certain comments I have heard that we should not discuss the subject of curricula, but I am reminded of a letter which I have in my possession. In the early summer of 1942 a memorandum was issued by the Scottish educational authority on the teaching of American history. The newspapers in Scotland featured it, and the "Glasgow Herald" honoured it by giving it a leader. The public were naturally inclined to the view that this warming-up of our feelings towards America was because of what they were doing in this war, and that this subject was to be included in the history course. But that was not the case. It was not possible for two reasons. One was that the teaching of history was controlled in the Scottish schools by teachers of English, who did not know anything about history, and the second was that the time devoted to history was insufficient for the teaching of this subject. I believe there has been a modifica- tion of this attitude in some of the authorities in the country, but on a matter such as this, a memorandum from the Department to which I have referred should have been accompanied by some power to insist that the promise made to the public in that memorandum would be implemented in every part of the country.

I desire to refer to the problem of selection for secondary education. In Scotland as a whole, there is no proper system for selecting pupils for secondary education—that is when they leave the primary school at 11 plus. In my opinion, there should be some satisfactory means of guiding a child to the most suitable course of secondary education, and that means research. Some research has been done on this matter. The Scottish Council for Research in Education has done some research, but the results of the work have not been applied to the extent that the results warrant, and some impetus should be given to work of this character. Again I comment in passing that it would be a good thing if an hon. Member of this House had the specific duty of attending the education committees. The methods vary throughout the education areas, and in most cases they are completely unsatisfactory. In addition, I am of opinion that vocational guidance should be given. In few schools is any attempt made to give guidance or help to the students unless they apply for it. This is a matter which needs conscious effort on the part of the school, and should not be left to the pupils. Would it not be possible for the Scottish Education Department to come to some agreement with the Ministry of Labour in order that this aspect of vocational guidance might receive attention?

My last word is on research organisation. The Scottish Council lack the finance to make their work fully effective. Their work is good in quality, but limited in extent. Something should be done to make that organisation more effective. The biggest task was the group test of intelligence in 1932 and also the individual survey of intelligence in 1937. These two reports were not made possible by any help from the education machine in this country, but were made possible because of subsidies from the international examination inquiry. This good work should be given more countenance on the part of the Department than it has been. The non-academic pupils is a major problem. It is more in evidence in the large town perhaps than elsewhere, but nevertheless it is a major problem and we must have a new approach to this type of pupil. The education for the non-academic pupil is at present far from satisfactory. Research would be justified, if it were only to cater for that type of pupil.

Many pupils and teachers are afraid at present about the future. Many boys have not a live interest in their work when they get near to the school-leaving age. If their education were made more factual and more real, they would have an inducement to make themselves capable of getting the best out of that education, and so get rid of this tendency which they at present display. I trust that these points will receive some consideration. I will endeavour to put down Amendments during the Committee stage in regard to these matters.

8.42 p.m.

It is probably not a mere coincidence that we had an Education Bill in 1918, just as we have the present Bill when another war is drawing to a close. The Bill is intended to bring the previous Measure up to date. I have no doubt that the spirit influencing both enactments is the same. There has been a desire to pass from the arts of war to those of peace, and to endeavour to improve the education system. I am afraid, however, that while we have the comfortable feeling that an English Bill has been passed and we are entitled to say that whatever has happened in England we are bound, in duty, to see that Scotland gets nothing worse—we are quite entitled, in fact we are almost bound to take up that position—it will not protect us, if we have to face ratepayers who are alarmed at a heavy increase in local expenditure. The answer must be to put a very efficient system before them, which they will regard as worth the expenditure.

In times such as these, there seem to be two main features, one of which I am pleased to see in the Bill. The two features are, first that we must have in view the fact that our young people have not had a normal chance of nourishment during the war, such as they would have had in peace time. Therefore I am pleased to notice provisions in the Bill with regard to school feeding and the provision of milk. The second feature is with regard to development of training. There is a necessity for that development. If we are to keep abreast of the times we must give an education which will produce for our country the best professional people and the best technicians. I am glad to note that the Bill touches upon that topic but, like my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Renfrew (Major Lloyd), I feel that something more might have been done. The Secretary of State might have been more courageous in that matter and might have gone out more to help technical education.

There is one point in the Bill about which I do not feel happy. After pointing out to local authorities that they have to provide primary and secondary education, the Bill prescribes something called further education. This seems to be that young persons between 15 and 18 are to attend at places called junior colleges for a period, which might be a complete day each week during 44 weeks, or it might be two half days a week in the same period, or it might be a period of eight weeks at a stretch, or two periods for four weeks. The purpose for which they are to attend at those places is left delightfully vague in the Bill, which states that the education is to be designed to enable them to develop their various aptitudes and capacities and prepare them for the responsibilities of citizenship. It does not appear that very much good will be derived from these spasmodic attendances. What does appear is that buildings will have to be erected. According to the right hon. Gentleman, they are to be erected during the next five years, just at the time when the country is crying out for houses. People will see palatial edifices going up all over the country for these junior colleges at the very time when they cannot get houses to live in. I do not think that is a good feature. The whole thing is vague. It is the sort of thing one would expect to be framed by educationists. I refer to people whom I have met, who are authorities on education. I imagine that they are authorities on education, because they could never be authorities on anything else.

This vague, indefinite business is neither satisfactory training for citizenship nor can it possibly help the professions. One day a week could not be of much use. I should direct the attention of the House to the fact that there is no indication what particular days in the week, or what group of half-days, are to be devoted to this purpose. Apparently, it is not the pupils' own time. The Bill seems to contemplate recreation, so presumably it is their employers' time. Anything more unsatisfactory than apprentices walking out once or twice a week from their occupation it is difficult to imagine. It is good neither for them nor for the businesses in which they are engaged. More consideration should be given to this matter, and what is intended should be more plainly stated and put in a more businesslike way. I certainly do not condemn any proposal until I properly understand it, but this matter, standing as it does in the Bill, lends itself to a good deal of adverse criticism and calls for further explanation.

I do not think the Bill as a whole does justice to technical education, but it has a good many admirable features, and if properly administered, it will improve Scottish education. I conclude with a word of warning. We cannot shelter ourselves behind the fact that there has been an English Bill and that we must automatically have one too. We are asking Scottish people to shoulder a very heavy additional burden. My experience shows that the only enthusiasm for the Bill comes from people who expect to derive benefit of some kind from it. The vast, rate-paying public are quite apathetic, as far as I can see, but when they are called upon to pay additional expenditure of from 1s. 6d. to 2s. 6d. in the £ on the rates, their apathy may change into something more hostile. The English Act has good features, but I am not sure if one can say that the vast expenditure envisaged in the Bill is justified. I have some apprehension in transmitting a Bill like this to the nation at such a time of financial stringency.

8.50 p.m.

It has now been made abundantly clear that Part III of the Bill is the part on which most difference exists. Personally I would like to see a return of the ad hoc committee, because it was during the period of the ad hoc committee that the greatest progress was made in educational matters in the part of the country to which I belong. It is, therefore, a very reasonable thing that I should wish to return to ad hoc commit- tees and it is equally reasonable that other hon. Members speaking here must quote from their own experience. Some would like ad hoc, others would like ad omnia and others would like some form of compromise. These are very important matters, but I must call the attention of the House to the fact that they are not so important as to justify a risk of this Bill failing to pass through all its stages during the present Session.

It has been stated that there is nothing very new in the Bill. That may be true, but its provisions are now compulsory. Whether the system of ad hoc or the system of ad omnia was the best, the local education authorities must have failed to take advantage of the existing Education Acts. That must be true if the subject matter of this Bill has been passed in previous Measures without powers of compulsion. If it has been necessary to bring in this Bill mainly or solely to compel those education authorities to do something they ought to have done before, it is a sad commentary on whatever form of education committee there has been in the past. That is as it may be, but I hope that even in the Committee stage nothing will be done that will endanger the passing of this Bill, because there are far too many good features in it, for it to be sacrificed on the altar of administration. It is, of course, subject to improvement. I have heard many suggestions about how the Bill could be improved. When considering an important Measure such as this, every one of us in all parts of the House must be satisfied that only the best is good enough. Our purpose is to find what is the best and, if we can, to get common agreement on what is the best. I think the most important thing in regard to education is that when the child leaves school, and has finished its education, it should be on equal terms with every child who has left school and has had an equal opportunity. If we can achieve that through this Bill, it is a good Bill.

I am interested in the question of the school-leaving age. There has been a great deal of frustration in the past so far as school teachers have been concerned, because while it is possible, advisable and desirable for children to remain at school until they are 15 years old, it has not been compulsory. School teachers set out with the purpose of giving young people an education on the assumption that they will be there until the age of 15, but something comes along, the pupil leaves, and the schoolmaster is left with a feeling of frustration. Therefore it is essential that we should have the compulsory school-leaving age raised to 15 by April, 1946. I am not satisfied with the ambiguity that still remains in the Bill regarding the raising of the school-leaving age to 16. I do not like the phrase: "as soon as is practicable". Obviously nothing is possible unless it is practicable, and the fact that it is accomplished proves that it is practicable.

I think there ought to be a date fixed in this Bill at which the school-leaving age would be raised to 16, and it ought to be the purpose of those responsible to see that it is practicable to raise the age on that particular date. It is no use saying that the question may come back to this House. The date ought to be in the Bill. How can a schoolmaster set out to complete a pupil's education unless he has a plan before him as to how long a particular boy will be at school? It may be until 15 or 16, but it is absolutely essential that if school teachers are to give a boy the full value of his education, they should know whether the leaving age is 15 or 16. Therefore, I regret very much that it has not been found possible to have a fixed date for the school-leaving age. I think that both pupils and teachers will suffer from the lack of that. I fully realise the difficulties about additional buildings that will be required, but I am convinced that unless a target is fixed, there is little chance of getting where we want to be. If we set out to reach a stipulated school-leaving age by a given date, say April, 1947, or even a little later, the necessary buildings and teachers will have to be obtained to make that possible, and there is definitely an incentive to get on with the task. My contention is that the phrase "as soon as is practicable" is the essence of ambiguity.

Every child, as has already been stated, is entitled to first-class education, and therefore I deprecate the fact that fee paying has not been entirely eradicaetd in the Bill before us. Here again I know there are difficulties, but they are not insurmountable. It has been suggested that it is within the option of local authorities as to whether or not they continue with their fee paying schools, but a Bill which is to set standards of education, standards of ability and certification so far as school teachers are concerned, definitely ought to include a standard so far as fee paying and no fee paying are concerned. I heard the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) say he hoped that that system would continue, otherwise it might not be possible for some child to go to the school at which Shakespeare was educated. Why should anyone want to go to that particular school, or to any other particular school, if the standard is the same in all schools? Who wants to travel long distances to school if the type and standard of education are the same in all schools? If it is something that is to take one further, to the university, it has to be available for all. It is absolutely essential that there should be no difference in standards if everybody is to have an equal opportunity.

Therefore, I see no reason at all why we should concern ourselves whether or not fee paying has been abolished in England. Surely, this is not the time of day to base what we are going to do, on what has been done in England. If we think that the abolition of fee paying is desirable, that alone should lead us to make up our minds to abolish fee paying, not because there happens to be fee-paying in England or Wales—or Timbuctoo. If we think it is desirable to abolish fee-paying we should do so, and for no other reason.

Exemption has been spoken about. Something has been said about whether or not exemptions were possible under the English Bill. I am not in the least concerned about that, but I am opposed to exemption, because it handicaps the child. There ought to be no exemption of school children because of domestic hardships. If a child has to forego his education in order to work, to augment the family income, there is something wrong with our social system, which ought to be adjusted. Also, the child ought not to be permanently handicapped because of some temporary defect in the household. If a child's mother is ill, it ought not to be necessary to grant exemption to the child. There is in existence a scheme of home helps, and a child ought not to take the place of an adult in managing the home, particularly when the mother is sick; a fully-qualified person ought to be brought into the house to do the work. If education is to be available for all, with a common standard, no child ought to suffer through exemptions, whether they are made in order that the child may augment the family income or to allow the child to take the place of an ailing mother. I regret that the Bill does not deal with this matter, and I hope that the Secretary of State will give further consideration to it before the Bill goes through Committee. Exemptions ought to be abolished, not because of what has happened in England and Wales, but because, if education is to be of a common standard, no child should suffer.

The size of classes has been so well dealt with by the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) that no words of mine could add weight to his argument. It is true that the Secretary of State has told us that this question has no place in the Bill and ought to be dealt with in the code; but the people of Scotland are entitled to something better than they have had in the past, and the teachers are entitled to know that their conditions will be reasonable in future. We talk about raising the school-leaving age and increasing the number of teachers, but people will not be encouraged to take up teaching unless they are assured that not only their wages, but their conditions, will be improved. No teacher could stand for any length of time the strain which is involved in the overcrowding of classes, the uncertainty as to when the school-leaving age is to be raised to 16, and a number of other considerations. I hope that the Secretary of State will give these matters further consideration before we finally pass this Bill. For a long time the people of Scotland have waited patiently for this Bill. When men have made so many sacrifices, in order that greater opportunities shall be given in future than have existed in the past, we should accept nothing short of the best in this Education Bill.

9.5 p.m.

Up to now only two hon. Members representing rural or landward constituencies have spoken on this very important Bill. I would not like my right hon. Friend to think, therefore, that all is well in the rural areas as regards education. As the sole speaker so far this evening representing the Highlands, I wish to put one or two points to him, in the short time which is available to me. We used to talk very proudly in Scotland of our Scottish education. Unfortunately, there seems to have been a note creeping in recently to the effect that our education is not so good as we boast that it is. A very great friend of mine, who has taught in the Highlands of Scotland, is now doing similar work in the Southern counties of England. Knowing of our troubles and difficulties, particularly in the Highland areas, she wrote to me not long ago:

As regards this Bill, I would like to take up one point from the very interesting and courageous maiden speech of the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. McIntyre), about education in the Gaelic-speaking areas. I have read through the Bill from cover to cover, and only in Clause 1, Sub-section (1) is there any mention of Gaelic. It is true the Bill says that all the conditions in this Bill are to apply to the Gaelic-speaking areas, but there is a definite feeling in our Gaelic-speaking areas in the Highlands that they have been rather neglected. I hope that it is not so, and that the greatest encouragement will be given by considering suggestions and complaints from the Gaelic-speaking areas. In introducing the Bill, my right hon. Friend referred to the fact that a secondary school pupil cost the State £22, whereas a Borstal boy cost £140. I would suggest that in the remote areas of the Highlands the cost to the State is very much more than £22. I would like to give one brief example, which has come to me in the last few days. In a certain remote area one boy and one girl in different families live 17 miles or more away from school. Up to now, neither of those two children has been able to obtain education since they went to live in that area. It is sometimes said that people with families like that should not accept employment in the remote areas. I have gone into this matter with the education committee, and it turns out that to educate those two children it would cost the local education authority £5 5s. per week, over and above the cost of their ordinary education, in providing transport to get them to school. In this Bill, there are Clauses dealing with transport, under which education authorities can make their own arrangements, but what education authority, particularly in the Highlands, can afford to meet expenditure of that sort? It cannot be done. The Director of Education put the case to me and made it perfectly clear that we cannot expect the local education authorities to meet charges of that kind. What is the result? The result is that people with young families have not got to take jobs in the remote areas or in the hills. My hon. Friends opposite have very often raised the question of the crimes and cruelties of the landlords of the past in causing the evictions from the Highlands. I would say to my right hon. Friend that the present education Regulations are causing a far more serious eviction of the young people from the glens and hills of Scotland. They are going, to-day, without any regrets whatever, and I hope that, when the Bill reaches the Committee stage, it may be possible to try and find some arrangements to assist the education authorities in the poorer rateable counties in the Highlands to meet these exceptional difficulties, which must be met unless we are going to evacuate the Highlands.

9.12 p.m.

Although I have had a fairly long experience of educational work in this country, I can assure the House that I am not going to enter into a controversy so far as Scottish educational administration and practice are concerned. I rise to deal with a point which has not, I think, been mentioned during the course of this very interesting Debate. The Bill now before the House has been very carefully considered by the men engaged in the local government service in Scotland, and they have expressed considerable alarm in regard to it. Running through the speech of the Secretary of State for Scotland, I detected a note of congratulation here and there that the Bill before us was better, in some respects, than the Bill which is now on the Statute Book so far as England is concerned, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that members of the local government service in Scot- land feel that, in one respect, this Bill is considerably worse than the English Act, because the English Act did provide very elaborate provisions for loss of office, superannuation rights and things of that kind. Members of the local government service are apprehensive that, in any changes which may follow the passing of this Bill, and I hope the Bill will pass safely to the Statute Book, their position may be worsened, and, in those few words I put that case to the House in the hope that the Minister, in replying, will be able to deal adequately with that point.

9.14 p.m.

The Secretary of State, at the conclusion of his speech, said that education was essential if we were going to contemplate a new and better world. That is certainly true. Education will be a powerful weapon for ensuring peace and freedom for the future. Education means that all the potential value of the nation can be continually expanded. But this Bill does not deal, as the Secretary of State said, with education. It deals with the machine that is to operate education in Scotland. But what sort of machinery is it? We talk about education being essential for a new world and yet we introduce machinery that is not new, that is not good, and that is so ramshackle that the Minister himself in his speech actually creates a feeling that he himself is ashamed of the machinery that he is presenting before us. We have heard of the American politician who ended his speech by saying, "Ladies and gentlemen, these are my principles. If you do not like them, I am willing to change them." The Secretary of State for Scotland says, "Here is my machinery. I do not think you will like it. I do not see how you could like it, and when we get to the Committee stage I hope you change it." What sort of a situation is that? Is it possible to discuss such machinery as that? On this Education Bill—as in the case of all other Bills—our discussions are determined by what has taken place in connection with the English Measure and English education. We ought to discuss Scottish education independently of education in England or anywhere else.

One of the important questions is that of finance. How is it possible to discuss Scottish education when you are faced with the fact that the expenditure on Scottish educaion is dependent upon expenditure on English education? You can only discuss Scottish education in relation to English education. If England spends more on education, then Scotland will be permitted to spend more. We have been told that, owing to the new advances in the recent Education Act, England is likely to spend considerably more on education and that as a consequence we are likely to benefit. My opinion, expressed time and time again, on the question of education or on the finance and machinery of education is, that the whole of the cost of education should come from the central authority. When I say that, I am always told that, if the whole of the finance came from the central authority, then that authority would control education and there would be no local democracy. That is nonsense. This House can decide that all the financial responsibility should be borne by the central authority and can let up the democratic machinery throughout the country to ensure that the greatest measure of interested people are brought into the work of education in the various areas. The right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) made reference to Soviet Russia and he could have told the House that everything conceivable is done there to bring the greatest number of people into the democratising of education and education machinery. If we had the central authority meeting all the financial responsibility, we would have no difficulty at all in working out the administrative machinery on the most democratic basis.

Does the hon. Gentleman refer to the British Treasury as the central financial authority?

Obviously there is only one central authority. If at a later stage there should be some other central authority, then I would be prepared to take it into consideration, but at the moment the only central authority that exists is the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government. The central authority, in my opinion, should meet all the cost, but the administrative machinery should be of such a character as would allow for the greatest possible extension in connection with education. The character of the machinery can be decided here, but here we have a situation where part of the machinery is presented and, when it comes to the Committee stage, a hope is expressed that it will be altered.

What sort of position is that? Some hon. Members will plump for the ad hoc committees and they can argue, and argue correctly, that many people stood for these committees because of their keen interest in education. That is true, but very many people stood for, and were elected on to the ad hoc committees because they were anxious to prevent education from expanding, and to prevent new developments in connection with education. Many people got on to these committees in order to try to limit the expenditure on milk in the schools, in order to prevent free meals from being introduced into schools. That arises because of the character of the financial arrangements, but if we had a proper financial arrangement then we could have ad hoc committees with the best possible people brought on to the education authorities without the evils—the desire on the part of many people to hold back expenditure, to prevent the extension of education—without those who do not want the health and the well-being of the children recognised as part of education and the evil of sectarianism which also played a part in the old ad hoc committees but which has now been overcome. I say, therefore, that in the Committee stage, however we try to sort out this question of the machinery it will still be pretty creaky; no matter what we do with it, it will not be good machinery.

In connection with the serving of meals, we should have a definite statement in the Clause that there will be a special staff, apart from the teachers, employed for the purpose of cooking and serving the meals, because we do not want the time of any teachers taken up, as is the case in many places at present, with the preparation or the serving of meals to children. In conclusion, I want to insist upon the fact that until we get the proper financial method we shall not get the machinery that is so desirable to bring about the education which the Secretary of State wants, education that will help to bring about the new world we all desire.

9.24 p.m.

The Debate, which I have heard from the beginning with only a very short interlude, has proved one of the most interesting we have had on Scottish education. It has been a Debate, incidentally, in which we have heard the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. McIntyre) putting the Scottish Nationalist point of view, and enabling us to understand some of the questions which are exercising the minds of some of our people in Scotland at the present time. Then we had the pleasant experience of hearing the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), after a long illness, making one of the most interesting speeches that he has ever delivered in this House, one in which he proved that he was in real earnest about education and, moreover, that he knew his subject thoroughly.

There are two outstanding features of this Debate. First, it has proved that there is common agreement here that the educational provisions of this Bill must be turned into an Act of Parliament as soon as possible. Whatever our differences may be on the administrative Clauses there is common agreement that those Clauses must not stand in the way of Scotland getting this new Education Bill. Secondly, the Debate has proved the impossibility of getting common agreement about those administrative Clauses. My right hon. Friend made clear that there were various views in Scotland as to the administrative machinery. You have the advocates of ad hoc, you have those who prefer the proposals in the Bill to the first proposals, you have those who are in favour of co-option and others who do not believe in co-option. I am in favour of the ad hoc system. The experience of a local education authority of which I was a member was that they were able to make far greater progress under the ad hoc system than under the ad omnia system. It is admitted at once that there are varying conditions. In the counties and cities only one election is necessary to provide the personnel to carry through the administrative work, but, as has been pointed out, it is entirely different when you come to the county with small and large burghs. There are some counties, for instance, Argyll, where there are no large burghs. Where you have small and large burghs anyone desirous of taking part administratively in education may have to overcome three hurdles. Consequently, you have the varying views which have been expressed as to what is the right machinery to carry through the administration of the Education Act. My right hon. Friend also made it clear that when we come to the Committee stage we shall leave that to the Committee to determine. That is democracy at work. [ Laughter. ] I thought that would bring a laugh from the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), but I maintain that that is true democracy at work. We want to find out what is the will of the Scottish Grand Committee.

Will this be taken as a precedent as to how democracy should work? Will other Bills and other such Clauses be left to the will of the Committee?

Sufficient for me is the point that has been raised, and which I am discussing, on this Bill.

This is a very vital point. Everybody will agree with what the right hon. Gentleman has said, but supposing that in endeavouring to ascertain the views of the Scottish Grand Committee the time factor becomes very vital, will he consider the recommendation made by the Advisory Council on such an issue?

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State always takes into consideration any advice given by the advisory bodies he has set up, but they are only advisory and not executive, and the executive responsibility is on him. He will take into consideration the advice that has been given. But I understand there is a common desire on the part of hon. Members that we ought not to lose the educational provisions of this Bill merely because of the machinery Clauses. That being so, those who try to make real difficulties in the Committee on the machinery Clauses will have upon their shoulders the responsibility of whether they destroy the Bill. I want to make it clear that we are going to leave that to a free vote, and the responsibility will be on the Committee to enable us to get the Bill, with the limited time at our disposal. We have worked it out very carefully. If it had been possible even to allow time for a discussion of the ad hoc system and to carry through the negotiations with the local authorities in accordance with all the arrangements made in the past, the ad hoc system would not have been ruled out, but it is absolutely impossible, with the timetable as it is, and with the knowledge that this Bill must be on the Statute Book, God willing and the House of Commons as we know it to-day surviving, by the beginning of August. That means that we have a very limited time-table. If the Bill is destroyed, after the public expression we have had in Scotland and the expression of views in the House to-day which have shown a real desire to get the educational Clauses of the Bill, the responsibility will be on the shoulders of those who do not give us the time to get them.

The simplest way would be to drop the administrative Clauses altogether.

There are some things you cannot drop. We have agreed to leave it to the Committee, which will have the chance of deciding on ad omnia as we know it to-day, with the dropping of co-option, or on the proposals in the Bill. I am pointing out what the difficulties are, and I know how my vote will go if there is a free vote in the Scottish Grand Committee. Several points have been raised by hon. Members in this very interesting Debate. It was suggested by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay) that there is totally inadequate provision for nursery schools in Scotland at the present time. I think we can all agree with that, but there the Bill introduces an improvement. Whereas it is optional on education authorities at the present time to set up nursery schools, it will be their duty under the provisions of the Bill.

The Bill does say very definitely that it will be done where there are enough children to justify it. It does not give the Secretary of State power to decide himself.

When the hon. Member intervened I was going to state that very fact, that it is the duty of education authorities to set up nursery schools where there is a demand for them on the part of the parents. The whole of our administrative machinery in Scotland, to the best of my knowledge—and I know something about it—has always started with optional clauses. Progressive authorities have taken advantages of the optional clauses, and the time has come when the "may" must be turned into "shall." Here is a big step forward in saying that it is the duty of education authorities to provide nursery schools where there is a demand on the part of the parents. I was rather surprised to hear the criticism levelled against one of our camp schools. I take a great interest in these camp schools and I have visited this one and I was particularly struck by the initiative, the energy, the enthusiasm, the goodwill, and what seemed to me the co-operative spirit that I saw there. Experiments were being carried out which I should have liked to see carried out in other areas. I have no knowledge of the little difficulty referred to by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock where they were made to sit in their class, or at their meals, and not allowed to speak. I pay my tribute to those who are doing splendid work in these schools. There are only five of them and, from my experience, I am well satisfied with the good work that is being done by each.

It was not a frivolous suggestion. It was a statement made after close examination, which I brought to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman.

I am only pointing out what my experience was, and I was rather surprised to hear the adverse criticism that was levelled against that school. A further point raised was, what is to be the future of the Advisory Council? I am sure they will be useful. They have been very helpful in the advice they have given. The hon. Member for Greenock (Mr. McNeil) welcomed the Bill as a workmanlike instrument, and congratulated the draughtsmen on their splendid work, but there were three reservations. First of all there was the question of the administrative machinery, and they are not prepared to support ad hoc.

My hon. Friend was speaking for his party. There are minorities in all parties, even the Conservative Party, on this issue.

I have not been corrected and put right yet. I am stating the facts. The second point was the question of exemption. Our proposals, to my mind, are an improvement on those contained in the English Act.

Yes, I am, because I have never admitted that we are dragged at the tail of England, and I will not admit it from this Box. We are independent so far as our provisions and suggestions for education are concerned, and the fact that England had a Bill has nothing to do, as far as I am concerned, with our suggestions and provisions in this Bill.

Why not make a comparison with a progressive country like Sweden for a change?

I was not making the the comparison. Hon. Members have already said that England had a greater advantage in their Bill, which is now an Act, than we have in the proposals in this Bill, and I am pointing out that if Scots Members want to be dragged at the tails of England in regard to the exemption Clauses, it will be a matter for discussion in Committee. The hon. Member for Motherwell should keep this in mind, that the Scots have the advantage in knowing the English language better than the Engish, which is shown by the fact that we use one word where the English use three. "Leave of absence" means the same as "exemption," and we are frank and put it in this Bill. Exemptions are limited to domestic hardship and are only to be granted by the education authority through the power which it devolves upon school management committees, and they are limited to children over 14.

The third point on which reservation was made by the hon. Member for Greenock was on the abolition of fees. In principle, I believe in absolutely free education, but what we are doing under our proposals is to leave it in the hands of the education authorities. There is no change in the law in regard to that, except to the extent that we have improved the position. Clause 11 deals with this matter, and provides:

No, it is not a Soviet Union report, but a report on the Soviet Union. That is a vast difference. It is a report by a Member of my own party on "Culture and the national life: some impressions of Soviet education."

I am pointing out that if charging fees is snobbery, there must be snobbery in more countries than my own.

Where there are no social classes you cannot have snobbery, but the existence of superior classes encourages people to try to move up towards the higher classes. Surely the right hon. Member understands that?

I quite understand that you can pay fees and not be a snob, because if you do not pay you cannot get the education. In this country education of all kinds is provided free for our people. Only after they have provided for free education will local authorities be enabled to charge fees.

Can we have this point made plain? I am sure the right hon. Member does not want to be misunderstood. Does the Clause mean that a local authority has an obligation to provide sufficient places in non-fee-paying schools, or does it mean that they may buy places in a fee-paying school and so relieve themselves of the obligation?

It means the first point which the hon. Member has made. It means that they provide free places for education in a school in which no fees are charged. The hon. Member wanted to know exactly what was meant by the latter part of Clause 11, which says "or by bulk payment."

Yes, but the hon. Member might read the whole Clause, which says:

"or in other schools the Managers of which agree …"

If there are managers, the school cannot be publicly-owned. The purpose of it was to meet cases like Dollar Academy, and Morrison's Academy, Crieff. We felt it was rather stupid to say that you must set up a new school when, by making arrangements with the managers, you could make a bulk payment and could then claim the right to say that every child who could benefit from secondary education in that area should have a right to enter that school without the payment of fees.

I am very sorry to be a nuisance. So that means there is no obligation on a local authority to provide places for all in non-fee-paying schools. That is what the right hon. Gentleman is telling us.

I have pointed out that this deals with exceptional cases. I thought I had made it clear. In all the other cases where there is a publicly-owned school, the duty of providing free education will only have been met under the Act if the authority provide free education in a school in which no fees are charged. I hope I have made that clear.

Well, we agree, and we shall have no difficulty in Committee on the question of fees. A point which has been stressed repeatedly is that England has abolished fees. It is true they have abolished fees in the rate-aided schools, but in to-day's newspapers you will find that fees have been doubled in some schools. Grammar schools do not come under the public authority, and they are fee-paying schools; they are now doubling their fees. Incidentally, the grammar schools get State funds for the purpose of enabling them to carry on, and they are not under the control of the local authorities.

They are direct grants. All I am pointing out is that we allow the local authorities, if they so determine, to continue paying fees to enable us to have control over those publicly owned and publicly controlled schools. These are matters which can be further debated in Committee. I do want to point out in connection with English education that in 1932 there were in England 10,000 schools which were charging fees and they were privately-owned schools.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is bad policy to found our educational system on the fact that something did not happen in England and therefore we must not do it in Scotland?

The argument in this House appears to be that because England has abolished fees we must do the same. I am arguing from the opposite angle. I do not wish to be dragged at the tail of England. Speaking as a Scotsman born in England, I may say that some of us are more patriotic than some Scotsmen born in Scotland. All I am saying is that we do not, at the moment, desire to apply central direction so far as the abolition of fees is concerned. There are 232 direct grant-aided schools in England and these schools are now considering increasing fees, and protest meetings are being held.

I am meeting the argument that we should do what England is doing; I am being very consistent and saying we are not going to do what England has done. We are going to do what, we think is right so far as Scotland is concerned. I left myself with the minimum of time to deal with the maximum of points, and I will do my best to deal with them if I can get on with my argument.

The hon. and gallant Member for West Edinburgh (Lieut.-Commander Hutchison) and many other hon. Members raised the question of the size of classes. The Secretary of State dealt with that particular point. He made it clear that we cannot put into an Act of Parliament the size of a class. We put that into the code. There are those who suggested it could be put into the code without supervision by this House. The regulations in the code have to be put in the Table of this House, and that means there is the opportunity in this House to deal with the problem of the size of classes. If I remember rightly, the Secretary of State made it perfectly clear that so far as we are concerned we are as anxious as any Member of this House to reduce the size of classes, and he did make it clear that as an earnest of our intentions—I am quoting from what the Secretary of State said— deal with this problem of the reduction of the size of classes as and when it is practicable, and it can be done under the code.

Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman will give priority to reducation in the number of pupils in a class, or to the question of junior colleges, or the raising of the school age? Which comes first?

I cannot say at the moment which comes first. All this will have to be decided after the Bill becomes an Act. They will be dealt with under the code. I cannot say which will receive priority.

Another point which was raised by several hon. Members, including the hon. Member for West Edinburgh (Mr. Watt), was the problem of technical education. It is true to say that one of the things in which we have been particularly lucky in Scotland is the provision for technical instruction and technical education. We cannot keep our place in the world unless, along with our cultural education, we are also prepared to make vast improvements so far as our technical education is concerned. I would remind the House that in the Bill itself there is a reference to schemes, and that these schemes, when they are submitted, must make provision for adequate technical education. That means we have not overlooked the fact that, as I have already said, if we are to maintain our place in the educational world, we have to make better provision in future than we made in, the past, for technical instruction and technical education.

To return to what the hon. Member for Motherwell said, he suggested that the Bill does not say what is the Government's policy for education. All I can say is that in drafting the Bill the endeavour has been made to secure that the powers and duties conferred upon education authorities and upon the Secretary of State are sufficiently comprehensive to enable them to provide a constantly developing educational service commensurate with the needs of the people of Scotland. I would have thought that that was an admirable policy, because there are ideas that we may have to-day in connection with education that will be considered even five, ten or 15 years hence, as being, shall I say, out of date, and there may be a need for something entirely different from what we are thinking of at the present time. The underlying principle is that responsibility should rest with the local democracy, and that central control should be kept to the minimum. The systems we propose are to comprise nursery schools, attendance at which will be purely voluntary. It is a duty of the education authority, to provide these classes where the parents ask for them. There will be primary schools and departments attendance at which will be compulsory unless the parent makes other arrangements, the age for attendance at which will be from five to about 12. Parents may be prosecuted without an attendance order having been made. There will be secondary schools and departments, at which the age for attendance will be from 12 to 14 at present, and later 12 to 15, until it is practicable to raise the age to 16.

We are going to improve the facilities for further education, which means adult education. That is a policy of which I am quite proud, as a Labour Member. It was said that there is no indication of what is to be taught in the junior colleges, but these colleges will be governed as to their administration by the schemes submitted to the Secretary of State, and approved by him. I do not know who will be in office when these schemes are put up, but it will be the responsibility of the Secretary of State to see that these schemes provide for cultural education, facilities in connection with physical instruction and recreation, and education to fit the children to become real citizens. We have still to get the Financial Resolution, and many of the other points were points of detail which can be discussed in Committee.

An Act of Parliament will not give us an educated people. This is a machinery Bill. If we are to make real progress, the parents of the present generation must be as keen as the parents of the past generation, and even keener. The local administrators must be enthusiastic in the the administration of the Act. We shall require better accommodation and equipment. We shall require a revival, such as we have never known in Scotland. The parents, the teachers, the education authorities, the central departments, and whoever is the political head for the time being will have to have only one object—to see that the children of Scotland get an opportunity to have the best education, under the best conditions, to make them the best type of citizens. One question which I had omitted is as to compensation if there happen to be any displaced officials, provided that there is any change in the administrative machinery. We anticipate that no one will lose any post as a result of these changes, but we will look at the point. I commend this Bill to the House, and sincerely hope that, with the spirit which has been expressed here today, although there may be some little differences on the administrative Clauses, when we get into Committee there will be a common desire among all Members, irrespective of party, to get the Bill on the Statute Book at the earliest possible moment.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committeed to a Standing Committee.

Education (Scotland) [Money]

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.

[Major MILNER in the Chair]

Resolved:

"That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to education in Scotland it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as may be necessary to defray the expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in the exercise of his functions under the Acts relating to education in Scotland so far as such expenses are not met from the Education (Scotland) Fund or under Subsection (2) of Section one of the Reorganisation of Offices (Scotland) Act, 1930."—( King's Recommendation signified. )—[ Mr. Johnston. ]

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

Emergency Powers (Defence) Charges

Fish Sales (Charges) (Amendment) Order, 1945

Resolved:

"That the Fish Sales (Charges) (Amendment) Order, 1945, dated 31st March, 1945, made by the Treasury under Section 2 of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, a copy of which Order was presented on 10th April, be approved."—[ Colonel Llewellin. ]

Milk Marketing (County of Banff) (Charges) Order, 1945

Resolved:

"That the Milk Marketing (County of Banff) (Charges) Order, 1945, dated 27th March, 1945, made by the Treasury under Section 2 of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, a copy of which Order was presented on 10th April, be approved."—[ Colonel Llewellin. ]

Requisitioned Land, Market Harborough

10.8 p.m.

Several hundred years ago—I think it was in the 15th or 16th century—a wealthy burgher, who had amassed a considerable sum of money, left a large sum in his will to trustees for the use and benefit of the town and townspeople of Market Harborough. Unlike many of these ancient trusts, and owing, I think, to the far-sightedness and integrity of the trustees throughout the centuries, the trust has prospered, and, to-day, it enjoys an income of several hundred pounds a year. Its activities are various, connected with the charitable institutions of the town, and, among other things, it buys and owns property for the use of the townspeople. Several years ago, a field at the Northerly approach to the town, intersected by two main roads, came into the market, and, in due course, was bought by this trust. In 1934, they scheduled it as an open space for the use of the people of the town, and, in due course, trees of an ornamental nature were planted alongside it, and it has been suggested that, after the war, it might well become the site for a war memorial. Adjoining this field to the South is another field slightly larger, also laid down to permanent grass, having no trees upon it and with the added advantage of having direct access to the main road. This field is owned by a local garage, who bought it because they believed that after the war the main trunk road would be widened and that they would then be able to build a new garage on this ground and use the rest of it as a parking place. In other words, it did not particularly matter what happened to this field in the intervening period. Ever since the war broke out Market Harborough, like many other towns of similar nature, has been a centre for troops. Various units have passed a certain period of their training there. For two years—I think it is no secret now—it was Brigade Headquarters of one of the American Airborne Divisions. And yet, although the headquarters of these various units was directly opposite the field in question, there has never been any question of the field being requisitioned.

Now, at this stage of the war, when we are, we hope, approaching finality, the Americans having left a few months ago, an Army maintenance unit comes in, and without "By your leave" or without any previous notice, requisitions this piece of land on 25th March. Next morning 50 Italians were turned on to it. All the turves to a depth of three or four feet were removed. Certain of the trees—not the newly planted ones, but the older trees—were removed and it was clear that preparations were being made for some form of parking lot that will remain in existence for some years after the conclusion of hostilities. This was done before any action could be taken by the trustees or by myself as Member of Parliament for the Market Harborough Division. In reply to a Question which I put to the Secretary of State for War last Tuesday I was informed that the clerk of the Trust and the grazing tenant had both been approached in this matter and that neither of them had lodged any objection to the requisition. When I went to Market Harborough shortly afterwards, however, that was not the story that I was told either by the clerk to the Trust, or by the trustees themselves. In fact the trustees informed me that they had never been informed that the land was going to be requisitioned at all.

I gather that what happened was something like this: Last January the clerk to the Trust was rung up by a requisition officer and asked if he had any objection to this field being requisitioned. His answer was that he could not possibly say and that the trustees would have to be consulted. That was the last heard of the matter until the actual requisition took place on 25th March. As far as the grazing tenant was concerned, he had in point of fact no rights at all, because his lease expired on Lady Day, 25th March. That happened to be a Sunday. He moved his cattle off on the Saturday and it was not until the 26th, which was Monday, that he received a registered letter, telling him that the land was being requisitioned as from the day before. He informed the trustees, who then found the Italians at work digging up the field.

If a thing like this had happened during a period of the war when expansion was happening all the way round in the Army, or if the Americans, just before D-day with their airborne Divisions on the spot, had asked for additional ground for preparations, I am certain that no objections would have been taken by the trustees, provided a sufficient case had been made out. But to come in suddenly, at the last moment of the war, and requisition, on insufficient notice, seems to me unnecessary and this action has been greatly resented by the inhabitants of Market Harborough. Another point is involved which, in my opinion, is a serious one. Is expense of this kind really necessary at this stage of the war? Is it in the public interest that new expenditure of this kind should be embarked upon suddenly now? During the preparations for D-day, parking lots and maintenance units had been established all over the British Isles. Why was it not possible to use one of these, instead of requisitioning a beauty spot in the middle of one of the most charming old towns in England? Therefore, I ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office to-night—and I hope that he will be able to give adequate reasons—first why this requisition was done without previous notice to the trustees, and, secondly, whether there is a real need for spending money on this purpose at this particular moment.

10.19 p.m.

Since this matter was first raised by my hon. Friend, we have had the most careful inquiries made with a view to obtaining the facts as far as they are known by those connected with the War Office. I hope to show the House that the information that has been supplied to me does not tally with the information that has been supplied to my hon. Friend. First, I understand that the field in question was requisitioned for use by a driver-training battalion which had been moved to its present location at Market Harborough after an extensive but unsuccessful search for suitable accommodation in other parts. The vehicle park which is now being used in the field to which my hon. Friend has referred is adjacent to the headquarters of the unit and this vehicle park of about two acres was required without delay. A reconnaissance was carried out by unit officers and the most suitable spot found was a triangular site of some two acres on the outskirts of Market Harborough. When the field was first inspected, it was found to be in use for grazing purposes—and here is where I think the version of the facts presented by my hon. Friend and the version I am about to present will be found to diverge. I am informed that on or about 9th February contact was made by the War Department land agent with the occupier, a Mr. Castell, who raised no objection to the proposed requisition of the field. He was asked who the owners were and he gave the name of a Mr. Hall who, I understand, is the secretary of the Market Harborough Town Estate. They are the owners of the field, as my hon. Friend has stated. Mr. Hall was telephoned the same day and, according to my information, replied that he would raise no objection. Following this telephone conversation, the usual references to local representatives of Government Departments were made. The regional planning officer raised no objection, since no permanent building was contemplated, and the agreement of the local war agricultural executive committee was obtained.

Now we come to the question of whether any notice was given to the owners of this property. Notice of requisition and claim forms were sent to Mr. Castell on 24th March. He then informed the War Department land agent that he was only the grazing tenant, that his tenancy was expiring—

Yes, had expired no doubt—and that he had accordingly forwarded the documents to the owners. These, in fact, were subsequently signed by Mr. Hall, the secretary of the Trust. Two days later, on 26th March, a Mr. Toller Eady telephoned a protest against requisition on behalf of the owners. A meeting, attended by a Mr. Tompkins, chairman of the Trust, and Mr. Hall, the secretary, was held next day, 27th March, at which the position was fully set out, and a representative of the unit was present, who explained the position to these two gentlemen. At this meeting, the sugges- tion was made—I am not sure whether by Mr. Tompkins or Mr. Hall—that use should be made of the adjacent field, to which my hon. Friend has referred. The unit officers, however, took the view that it was too large for their requirements—I understand that it is a field of about 3½ acres—

Yes, for the purpose of this unit a field of about two acres is required.

May I ask one question? Is it not a fact that before this meeting could have taken place—in other words, on the morning of the 26th, the 25th having been a Sunday—50 Italian workmen had already gone in and, within an hour, had dug up a large area of the field? Any complaints that could be made by Mr. Tompkins and Mr. Hall were out of place because the work had already begun, and a considerable amount of damage had already been effected.

It is quite true that the Italian labourers may have started their work on Monday, 26th March, but the notices had been served on the 24th—

The Minister has used an extraordinary phrase that I have never before heard used by a Minister. He said it is quite true that the work "may have started." Had it started or not?

I want to be quite frank with the House. I have not informed myself of the actual date on which the work was started, but in view of the fact that my hon. Friend has said his information is that the work started on the Monday, I am not going to dispute what he said. I am trying to give the sequence of events, according to the report that I have received. The meeting took place, and the view was expressed that the alternative field was not suitable. Moreover, the requisitioned field has a pond in it, and was considered as being more suitable because of the washing of the vehicles of the unit. I am also informed that after the meeting, Mr. Tompkins expressed regret at having made a complaint to my hon. Friend, which I gather was made in the form of a letter. It will be seen that this is a straightforward requisition and that every proper step was taken, except that the notice of requisition was sent in error to Mr. Castell as a result of the impression that he was the actual tenant. At that time the War Department land agent was not aware that he only had grazing rights. When the owners subsequently protested, on 26th March, as I have indicated everything was done at the meeting on the following day to explain the situation, and Mr. Tompkins expressed himself as being satisfied.

Mr. Tompkins certainly did not express himself in those terms to me. In the letters he has written since them, he does not express himself as in any way satisfied. I think my hon. and learned Friend must be misinformed on that point.

I am not prepared to accept the view that I have been misinformed, because this report has been made in all seriousness.

My hon. Friend has sent two letters to the War Office which I am quite prepared to read, if he asks me to do so.

The first letter is from Mr. Tompkins, and the second letter is from my hon. Friend's agent in the local association. The first letter reads:

"Dear Mr. Tree,

"I wonder if you can do anything for Market Harborough in this matter:—At the top (Leicester Road) end of the town where Fairfield Road and Leicester Road meet, there is a triangular piece of ground (about 2 acres) in which is situated a piece of water known as the Folly Pond. You may know it. This piece of land belongs to the Market Harborough Town Estate Feoffees, it has been earmarked as an open space and planted with ornamental trees. It is intended eventually to make it a "rest" place and it is in fact an integral part of what is the prettiest entrance to the town. This (Monday) morning a horde of Italians descended upon it, removing the turf and I understand the idea is to make the ground a dumping place for Army trucks; this notwithstanding that there is plenty of accommodation available quite near by, a choice of suitable accommodation in fact and much more of it. Why it should be necessary to destroy one of the town's amenities in this manner I fail to see. If there was no other accommodation it would be another thing. It will also make the Leicester Road corner, along which there is tremendous Army traffic, a first-class danger spot. I would point out that no requisition or notice was served on the owners of the field. I have learned that this morning Mr. Castell, who has the keeping, received a notice. He is not the tenant but only has the keeping. The owners, who are also the real tenants, were completely ignored. It may be late for anything to be done to stop this loss to Market Harborough, but I felt I must acquaint you with the facts, with that hope in view."

That was signed by Mr. Tompkins.

May I ask a question, which is of some importance in this case? I understand the hon. and learned Gentleman to say he was unaware of the fact that the Italians had removed the turf before the requisition notice was given. Why should that be so?

I am afraid I have not asked a direct question of the military authorities at Market Harborough as to when these Italians were used. That is quite a different thing. What I meant to say was I did not make a direct inquiry.

This letter was forwarded with another letter from my hon. Friend's agent. It reads: Mr. Castell instead of being sent direct to the owners of the property. As regards any apprehension there may be, that the War Office intend to buy the site by compulsion, and sell it as a building site, I can assure the House there is no such intention and that, so far as the War Department is concerned, nothing will be done which would prevent the field being used as an open site eventually for the use of the townspeople. It is proposed to release the field when it is no longer required by the military authorities and, of course, if necessary, to pay any compensation that may be due under the Compensation Act. The point my hon. Friend has made—one of his main points—that no previous notice was given to the owners of the property, has, I think been met by the explanation that it is true that notice was sent by mistake to the grazing tenant, but was passed on the same day, to the owners of the property.

I have seldom heard a less clear case put by any Minister than that which has been put by the hon. and learned Gentleman. He commenced by saying "So far as the facts are known to the War Office." I should have thought, in view of the fact that notice was given that this matter would be raised that the facts would have been known to the War Office. The hon. and learned Gentleman made an important admission respecting the use of land dedicated to public purposes that notice was served on the wrong person; that no proper apology had been made; and that the land was dug up before requisitioning, by Italian prisoners. In those circumstances I respectfully suggest, without making any personal attack upon him, that he should have come to the House and admitted that a serious mistake was made.

I hope I have made the admission that there was a mistake; but I cannot say it was a serious mistake, in view of the fact that the owners of the property received notice on the same day as that on which it was received by the tenant.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-five Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.