House of Commons
Wednesday, May 9, 1945
The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]
Private Business
Marriages Provisional Order Bill
Read a Second time, and committed.
Oral Answers to Questions
Liberated Europe
Allied Commissions of Control (British Representation)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what European countries liberated from the Germans now have an Allied Commission of Control; and on which of these Commissions is Great Britain represented.
Allied Commissions of Control are operating in Italy, Rumania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Finland. His Majesty's Government are represented on all of them. I should perhaps point out that in Italy the body is called the "Allied Commission."
British and Russian Representatives (Freedom of Movement)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, apart from grounds of military security, U.S.S.R. representatives, including the Press, are permitted complete freedom of movement in areas occupied by the Western Allies in Europe; and if there is reciprocity in this respect.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether British members of Allied Control Commissions in European countries occupied by the U.S.S.R. are able to travel throughout those countries.
As the reply is somewhat long, I will, with my hon. Friends' permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is or is not reciprocity?
I think the answer to that is that, generally speaking, there is no reciprocity, but the lengthy answer to which I have referred and which I propose to circulate, gives the details of the divergencies and their significance.
Have representations been made that there should be reciprocity?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will wait for the reply.
Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether the members of the Allied Control Commissions are able to travel at all throughout those territories?
There are no formal restrictions placed upon their movements, but, in practice, British officials are unable to travel without Soviet permission and without being accompanied by a Soviet liaison officer.
Is it not the case that Russia has good reasons for imposing those restrictions?
What are they?
Following is the reply:
It would not be correct to say that there is reciprocity in this matter. Soviet representatives in areas occupied by the Western Allies in Europe (outside the zone of operations) enjoy complete freedom of movement, subject to security requirements and to the following conditions: In the Soviet occupied areas no formal restrictions are placed on the movements of British officials in Finland and Rumania, but in Hungary and in Bulgaria British officials can travel outside their places of residence only with Soviet per mission and when accompanied by a Soviet liaison officer. Apart from a few brief visits by British representatives for the purpose of establishing contact with liberated British prisoners of war in Lublin, Lwow and Volkovyak, no British officials have been permitted to enter Poland or Soviet-occupied areas of Czechoslovakia and Austria; the question has not yet arisen as regards Germany. With regard to Press correspondents, Soviet correspondents in areas occupied by the Western Allies are treated exactly like other Allied war correspondents. I under stand that no restrictions have been placed by the Soviet military authorities on the movements of British Press correspondents in Finland or Rumania. There are, however, no British correspondents in Bulgaria, Hungary or the Soviet-occupied areas of Czechoslovakia, Austria and Germany. Apart from visits by one or two journalists, no British correspondents have been permitted to enter Poland.
German Labour
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the Soviet, the Dutch or other Allied Governments have yet requested that German labour be allocated after the war to the tasks of recon struction in their devastated territories; and if His Majesty's Government, in consultation with the rest of the United Nations, will bear in mind the possibility of using Nazi prisoners of war for such purposes and so averting the dangers which would attend the free repatriation to Germany of large numbers of young Nazis whose physique and morale are relatively unimpaired.
No such requests have been made, but it is probable that more than one Allied Government will wish to use German labour for the purpose mentioned. The point to which the hon. Member draws attention in the second part of his question is being borne in mind.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider keeping in operation for this purpose the German labour service known in that country as the Arbeits Dienst?
That is a much wider question, on which I do not at the moment feel altogether competent to reply.
Questions
British Prisoners of War (Representations to Russia)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what facilities are granted to members of the British Embassy and the British Mission in Moscow to travel to and in Poland, Silesia and the part of Germany occupied by the forces of the U.S.S.R. in order to make contact with liberated British prisoners.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will publish the agreement made with the Soviet authorities for the treatment of British prisoners of war liberated by their armies, and the details of the representations which have been made in respect of the violation of the agreement.
I will, with permission, answer these Questions together. The text of the agreement was issued shortly after it was signed and appeared in the Press on 13th February. His Majesty's Government's main grounds for complaint have been the absence of adequate facilities for visits by British officers to first collection points, hospitals, and other places in for ward areas where it was known from reliable reports that British prisoners were collected, and the slowness with which the prisoners have been concentrated and moved to the port of embarkation. There have also been a certain number of exceptional cases where our prisoners have suffered hardships, including robbery of their personal possessions. It is these matters which have formed the subject of representations to the Soviet Government.
Has the right hon. Gentleman had any answer to the representations which have been made?
We are continually pressing the Soviet Government on these points, and I hope, now that there is actual contact between Soviet Forces and the Forces of the Western Allies, that it will be much easier to get a satisfactory settlement of them.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that British officers are not allowed to see British repatriated prisoners of war until they reach Odessa, and will he make representations that British officers should be allowed to get in contact with these escaped British prisoners of war much further forward?
Yes, Sir.
Greece
Detainees
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many Greeks are still detained in Africa as un-repatriated refugees; how many as non-repatriable refugees; how many as mutineers following the events in the Middle East last spring; how many as rebels following the events in Athens in December; and how many as political prisoners arrested on other occasions.
As the reply contains a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The number of Greek refugees in Africa awaiting repatriation is about 4,295. There are no non-repatriable refugees. There are about 4,000 men still detained as a result of the mutinies in the Greek Armed Forces last spring. Of the 8,000 E.L.A.S. prisoners sent to Egypt during the fighting last December, all have now returned to Greece. As regards other prisoners, 35 men are held in the Middle East, and three in East Africa under Defence Regulations.
Seamen (Trial)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the declaration of the Greek Minister of Marine that the State machinery in Greece is now functioning normally and that it is not possible to recognise organisations created abroad during the period of occupation, His Majesty's Government will direct that the Allied Powers (Maritime Courts) Act, 1941, shall no longer apply to Greece; and make the change in time so that the 29 seamen due to be tried by the Greek Maritime Court in London, on 9th May, can be brought before an Athens court.
I see no advantage at present in the suggestion of my hon. Friend. Large numbers of Greek seamen are still based on United Kingdom ports, and it would cause great delay if they had to be sent to Greece for trial of even minor offences. But I can assure my hon. Friend that it is not the desire of His Majesty's Government that these courts should continue any longer than is necessary.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the case of this particular trial, which is a long and elaborate trial involving a great deal of evidence, the men charged were brought here from South Africa instead of being taken to Athens; that in this country there is literally no lawyer, either English or Greek, with the qualifications to conduct their case, and is that not a denial of justice which His Majesty's Government would be very reluctant to sanction?
With regard to these men having been brought from South Africa to this country, that was a question of convenience of transportation. With regard to the other point, I find it very difficult to believe that the English Bar is as impoverished in talent as the hon. and learned Member suggests, but I will certainly look into the matter.
Would the right hon. Gentle man accept from me that in a previous trial I had to be brought in to defend the men, although I know no Greek, as no body could be found to conduct the case; and the only reason I cannot conduct the next case is that it involves hundreds of folios of technical matter in Greek which I cannot hope to master, and there is no body to defend these men?
Austria
Dr. Karl Renner
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make available to the House the Foreign Office dossier of Dr. Karl Renner, the head of the Provisional Austrian Government.
His Majesty's Government have no special information regarding Dr. Renner beyond that which is generally available. According to my information, Dr. Renner was born in 1870 and entered the Austrian Parliament in 1907 as a Social Democrat, to which party he has always belonged. He became a member of the Austrian Council of State and State Chancellor in 1918. In 1919, he was Austrian delegate to the Peace Conference, signing the Treaty of St. Germain. He left office in 1920, but continued to play a prominent part in Austrian politics. In 1938, Dr. Renner openly supported the Anschluss with Germany, although deprecating the way in which it had been carried out. He is understood to have lived in retirement during the German occupation.
Provisional Government
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any further statement to make on the Provisional Government in Vienna; whether Allied political and military missions have arrived in Vienna; and when representatives of the British Press will be allowed to proceed to Austria.
I am at present unable to add to the full statement I made on this subject on 2nd May.
Occupation
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what agreement was reached at the Crimea Conference concerning the occupation of Austria by the various Allied armies; and the nature and method of selection of the Provisional Government.
These subjects were not discussed at the Crimea Conference.
Questions
Foreign Service (Transfer Allowances)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the prolonged delay in agreeing the details of transfer allowances to members of the senior branch of the Foreign Service and the consequent hardship involved, he will give an assurance that the allowances will be retrospective.
No, Sir.
Is the right hon. Gentle man aware that this delay imposes very great hardship on overworked officials at the Foreign Office; and will he make re presentations to the Treasury to make the allowances retrospective?
I can only ask my hon. Friend to await the outcome of the con sideration which is being given to the question.
It may be years.
German V Weapons (Information)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the surrender of Dr. William Hamberger, a German national living in Turkey in possession of valuable information about V weapons, was declined by the British authorities in Ankara early in 1943, with the result that he was at large for a further year before surrendering to the Americans.
Dr. Hamburger never offered his surrender to any British authority.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is really not the case; and is he further aware that if the information which he has had been acted upon, thousands of lives in this country might have been saved?
I can only say that I have not been shaken by the hon. Member's supplementary question. The facts are as I have stated.
I shall put down another Question.
Poland
M. Witos
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to inform the House of the result of his inquiries addressed to the Soviet Government with regard to M. Witos, the former Polish Prime Minister, who was taken away from his home near Cracow on 31st March.
His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires in Moscow has been instructed to ask the Soviet Government for confirmation of the report that M. Witos is now at liberty. He has also been instructed to ask for information regarding the re ports which have been brought to the notice of His Majesty's Government that other members of the Peasant party have recently been arrested.
Polish Representatives (Arrest)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has now received any information concerning the whereabouts of M. Jankowski, Vice-Premier of Poland, three Cabinet Ministers and other Polish representatives who were taken away by the Soviet authorities on 28th March.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received from the Russian Government information with regard to the fate of the 15 Polish political leaders who have disappeared, and about whose disappearance concern is felt by the Polish Government in London.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government have now received from the Government of the U.S.S.R. an answer to the repeated inquiries they have made about certain Polish personages.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement about the breakdown of negotiations at San Francisco concerning the formation of a national Government in Poland.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make a statement about the Polish democratic leaders who were arrested by the Soviet military authorities after accepting their invitation to enter into discussions.
I have at present nothing to add to the statement issued jointly by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and by Mr. Stettinius on this grave matter.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that these gentlemen were invited to a conference and were promised absolute immunity for their personal safety?
I can assure my hon. Friend that His Majesty's Government realise the full significance of the facts, in so far as they know them.
Will my right hon. Friend confirm or deny the statement made by the Tass Agency on Saturday that these Polish personages constitute a group which is led by General Okulicki, since the introduction of the name of this officer appears to constitute quite a different element?
I have, of course, seen the report to which my hon. Friend refers, that of the Tass Agency. In reply to his question I can only say that the in formation at the disposal of His Majesty's Government certainly does not confirm what is contained in that report.
In view of the fact that most of the missing gentlemen were members either of the Polish trade union movement or of the Socialist movement in Poland, has the right hon. Gentleman had any protest from members of the parties of the Left in this country, at their detention?
I am not absolutely certain about the premises stated by my hon. Friend, but certainly when these matters have been discussed here, I have not been conscious of any such protest.
Can my right hon. Friend inform the House whether there is, in fact, any sound reason for believing that any of these gentlemen are still alive?
I regret very much that we have no further information than that with which the House is already familiar.
If the Government are disposed to interfere in matters of this sort—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—will the right hon. Gentleman take note of the fact that General Franco caused a colonel of the French resistance forces to be shot last week?
Can my right hon. Friend indicate how soon the Foreign Secretary will be able to make a statement in this country?
Not before he comes home.
I do not think I can better the answer which has just been given by the hon. Member from the other side of the House. As to when the Foreign Secretary will be back, I am afraid I can not give the House any information at the present time.
Questions
Great Britain and Italy (Diplomatic Relations)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present diplomatic status of the British representative in Rome and the Italian representative in London.
Direct relations between His Majesty's Government and the Italian Government were established last autumn. The British representative in Rome and the Italian representative in London both hold the personal rank of Ambassador.
Does not my right hon. Friend think that the part played by Italians in the liberation of their country, to which part the Prime Minister has paid a just tribute, justifies the establishment of full diplomatic relations?
There are difficulties in the way of His Majesty formally accrediting an Ambassador to or receiving one from a country with which he is, technically at any rate, still at war.
League of Arab States
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps, now that the Arab League has been formed, are being taken to carry out the pledge he gave in May, 1941, that His Majesty's Government would give their full support to any scheme of Arab unity that commands general approval.
His Majesty's Government have welcomed the successful formation of the League of Arab States. They will await with sympathy and interest the results of the detailed conversations which are now to be begun for reducing the various barriers which divide the Arab peoples and for promoting co-operation between them. They hope that these discussions will yield useful and practical results.
Trieste (Allied Occupation)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement about the pre sent position of Trieste; and what action is contemplated to settle the dispute that has arisen concerning its occupation.
Yes, Sir. The German garrison of Trieste surrendered on the after noon of 2nd May. General Freyberg, commanding the New Zealand Division who had advanced rapidly from the West, accepted the surrender and at once occupied the port which is now held by British and American Forces. The Yugoslav 4th Army, which had already reached the Eastern outskirts of Trieste, also entered the city from their side. It appears that the claim made in Yugoslav communiqués that Trieste was occupied by Yugoslav Forces on 30th April was premature. Its fall was indeed the result of the joint operations of the XV Army Group and the Yugoslav 4th Army. The arrangements for the immediate division of operational and occupational responsibilities between the two forces which have now joined are at pre sent under discussion between the Chiefs of Staff of Field-Marshal Alexander and Marshal Tito. Lieut.-General Morgan is instructed to arrange for a strictly military agreement which would, of course, be entirely without prejudice to any interim political arrangements for the area pending the peace settlement or to its final disposal. His Majesty's Government adhere to the view that the question of final sovereignty over the territory must await the peace settlement.
What sort of assurances are there that, in order to avoid what would otherwise be almost certain bloodshed, British and American troops will remain in the occupation of Trieste?
I do not think I can usefully add anything to what I have said, more especially as discussions are going on between the respective Chiefs of Staff.
Royal Air Force
Transfers to Army
asked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that men who volunteered for the R.A.F. in the early stages of the war and are now being told that unless they sign on for a further four years they will be transferred to the Army, regard this treatment as being most unfair; and if he will have the matter reconsidered.
As my hon. Friend is aware, a number of men are being transferred to the Army from the Royal Air Force to meet the overall needs of the Armed Forces. Airmen who have applied and been accepted for enlistment in the regular Air Force have been excluded from these transfer arrangements. No pressure has been put on men to volunteer for regular service.
Is it not, in effect, putting pressure upon a man to tell him that, unless he signs this document, he will be transferred, after long service in the Air Force, to another arm?
I think my hon. Friend is misinformed as to his facts. It is, of course, the case, and inevitably must be so, that the R.A.F. parts with all these men who have served us so well and are transferred to the Army only with great reluctance. But it is quite legitimate that a commanding officer should point out to somebody who does not want to go that there are means of avoiding it. I can assure the House that there is no desire to retain men against their will.
Is the Army such a dreadful place after all?
The hon. and learned Member should find out.
When men are transferred, will it make any difference what ever to the time when they will come out under their old release group?
So far as I know, it will not, but I had better see that question on the Paper as I am not sure.
Transport Command (Civil Traffic)
asked the Secretary of State for Air if he is now in a position to provide aircraft and crews for the carriage by air of matter urgently needed for the promotion of export trade with countries such as Egypt.
The miltary commitments of Transport Command will be very heavy in connection with the Japanese war, and in Europe for some time. When ever space is available, however, matter may be sent by air provided its carriage is in the public interest.
Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that aircraft are avail able to citizens of the United States for sending goods of almost all kinds? Is it not possible to devote one or two bombers a day to sending urgent air mails and goods to Egypt and to other countries, now that our great bombing forces are no longer required to work over Germany?
Civil aviation of that kind conducted by the Air Ministry would, I think, be the subject of considerable discussion and criticism in this House.
Post-War Service
asked the Secretary of State for Air whether opportunities exist to enable officers and other ranks to engage for long term and short term service with the R.A.F.; whether the pay and conditions of post-war service have been settled; and whether he anticipates he can recruit sufficient personnel for post-war R.A.F. requirements on a voluntary basis.
Yes, Sir. As my right hon. Friend indicated when he introduced the Air Estimates, on 6th March, officers serving on temporary com missions have been invited to apply for permanent commissions, and selections are now being made to fill all vacancies in the pre-war establishment of permanent officers. Airmen also have been invited to enter on regular engagements, to extend existing arrangements and to re engage for pension. As regards the second part of the Question, the pay and conditions of post-war service are being examined though they cannot be finally determined until a clearer idea can be formed of post-war conditions and requirements. As regards the third part, the strength of the regular and non-regular Air Forces have yet to be deter mined.
Now that the war with Germany is ended, does not my hon. Friend think it is high time that the R.A.F. made up its mind as to the size of force it wants for our post-war commitments, so that the Minister can come to this House and ask the House to approve of a standing Royal Air Force, and thus do away with the possibility of compulsion?
Before the Royal Air Force can make up its mind, there are certain political and military appreciations that have to take place at a higher level.
Aircraft Production
Melingriffith Works (Use)
asked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether he can make a statement regarding the drop forgings section of the Melingriffith works near Cardiff; and to what different use the factory and up-to-date machinery are to be put.
I am afraid the answer is rather long.
The drop forgings section of the Melingriffith Works was among the latest capacity of its kind to be planned to meet the rising requirements of the aircraft programme. By the time it became operative, changes in programme, due to technical developments and to the changing war situation, had resulted in a considerable curtailment of the need for the type of forgings which it was designed to produce. It has therefore not been found possible to build up production at Melingriffith to a tonnage which would represent the necessary minimum for efficient and economic production, or to employ a significant number of workers. Arrangements have therefore been made for the closing of the forge. Production has not yet entirely ceased, and there is expected to be no difficulty in absorbing the comparatively small number of workers involved in other works in the neighbourhod which are operated by the same company. It is not yet possible to give any indication as to the future use of the factory and plant. The possibility of its disposal for the work for which it was designed is being explored. If that proves impossible it will be necessary to consider the removal of the plant, and the use of the buildings for other purposes.
Sub-Contractors' Charges (Investigation)
asked the Minister of Aircraft Production if any investigation has been carried out on behalf of his Ministry into the excessive charges made by Messrs. Wharton and Sons, Wolver hampton, for work done for his Ministry either direct or through the Gloster Aircraft Company; and, if not, whether a thorough investigation will be instituted.
The company have no direct contracts with my Department, but have carried out work as sub-contractors. The trading results of the company and prices charged by them are being examined by my officers.
Questions
British Aircraft (Demonstrations)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what facilities were made available for the South African public to enter and inspect the Avro York aircraft which carried Lord Swinton and his staff to the recent Civil Aviation Conference in South Africa; and were any flights given to leading South African business men and representatives of the South African Press.
It was only possible in the time available to arrange for a limited number of persons to inspect the aircraft. A demonstration flight to which representatives of all the South African Press and of South African Airways were invited, was carried out. This was much appreciated and the Press accounts were very favourable.
Could the Parliamentary Secretary say whether any air craft have been sold as a result of that visit?
I understand that the South African Government propose to buy Tudor aircraft, and until those aircraft are available, His Majesty's Government propose to lease them York aircraft.
When will delivery be made of the aircraft which have been sold?
I understand the programme is that the Tudor I will be delivered in June and the Tudor II in November. I hope those dates will be adhered to, but whether that is so or not must depend on all those engaged in the factories producing these aircraft.
Air Mail Facilities (Egypt)
asked the Post master-General if he is aware of the urgent need for air mail facilities to Egypt in order that business houses may send catalogues, specifications and other similar information, now urgently needed if the export trade is to be rehabilitated expeditiously after the cessation of hostilities; and what action is he taking to provide such facilities.
Yes, Sir. I am fully in sympathy with the demand for such facilities; and I hope that, with the help of the Secretary of State for Air and the Minister of Civil Aviation, it will soon be possible to provide the aircraft capacity required.
Is my hon. Friend aware that British business houses are at a very great disadvantage compared to their opposite numbers in the United States, because of the lack of air facilities granted to business men in this country compared to those granted by the United States authorities for their business houses?
Yes, Sir, we are conscious of that.
Hyde Park Review Ground
asked the Minister of Works what steps he is taking to get back the Review Ground in Hyde Park into his hands and available for the public.
I am in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War about this matter.
Will my right hon. Friend see what can be done? Not very much work is necessary, and this part of a famous park in London is very much desired by the public.
I share my hon. and gallant Friend's desire to see the return of this ground in the park to its normal use, but there are certain difficulties which have to be overcome.
Will the Minister see that no part of the parks in London is made available for building, as I under stand is proposed?
Housing
Bomb Damage Repairs
34 and 35.
asked the Minister of Works (1) whether he will cease to operate the cost-plus system in war-damage repairs and to insist that this work shall be carried out by building firms and not by local authorities;
(2) what action he proposes to take on the five cases of muddle and inefficiency, particulars of which have been sent to him, and which involve waste of public money.
I am inquiring into these cases and will communicate with the hon. Member. It appears that the owners of these properties would have liked to have made their own arrangements with private builders for carrying out the repairs. However, the local authority did not give their permission, since the whole of these roads were being tackled as part of the council's repair programme. In the recent Debate on bomb damage repairs, I explained fully why the Government had decided to concentrate this work largely in the hands of local authorities, and I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of this statement. I also made it clear on that occasion that I am most anxious to reduce the amount of work which is carried out under the cost-plus form of contract. I am at present discussing the matter with representatives of the building industry.
Will the Minister give an undertaking that in the cases of which I have sent him evidence, really drastic action will be taken?
No, I cannot guarantee that, because my hon. Frend is, in fact, challenging the whole policy of the Government—
I am.
—which is to get these re pairs carried out in the most efficient way by the council, dealing with the whole area under one programme, and not to tackle the repairs piecemeal, as my hon. Friend suggests.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the system he has adopted cuts out personal responsibility and direct incentive to builders, and that until those two qualifications are restored, he will not get the best out of the building industry?
I dealt with that very fully in the statement I made in the recent Debate, and I have answered many questions by my hon. and gallant Friend on that subject.
Is the Minister aware that people who talk about fixed price contracts for bomb damage repair to dwelling-houses, do not know what they are talking about?
38. and 39.
asked the Minister of Works (1) what remuneration is to be paid to General Pile and his brigadier and junior commander A.T.S. assistants; whether the situations are of a permanent nature and are pensionable;
(2) what are the duties to be carried out by the brigadier and junior commander A.T.S. who have joined General Pile's staff.
General Pile is provisionally seconded from the Army and there fore receives the remuneration appropriate to his rank. The same applies to the other two officers who are filling posts at the Ministry of Works as Deputy Director-General and Private Secretary.
As this is a very long-term matter surely there should be some thing more than a temporary arrangement of seconding Army officers and members of the Auxiliary Service to what are nothing more than Civil Service jobs?
Will the Minister say what are the qualifications and experience of these three officers in the building or civil engineering industry?
That is quite a different question. I am confident that these officers will make a very substantial and valuable contribution to the progress of our housing programme.
Surely we are entitled to know what are the qualifications of these people? Is it not very unusual to transfer or second a number of people en bloc from a military office to another office and for the Minister not to be prepared to say what their qualifications are? What are they?
I think it is undesirable to have discussions in the House about the qualifications of individual officers in a Government Department. I take full responsibility for the appointments which, in respect of General Pile, have the approval of the Prime Minister, as Minister of Defence. The qualifications needed for this particular job are those of administrative ability, drive, organising capacity and powers of leadership, all of which General Pile possesses in very great measure.
Are we to understand that, while they possess the qualifications of ability and drive, they do not possess the qualification needed for the building progamme, which is a knowledge of the job in hand?
They possess all the qualifications which I consider necessary to fill those posts.
Without challenging the qualifications of those people, as this is an extremely long-term operation, would it not be better to transfer them, and discard their military rank?
I thought that the quickest way of making these arrangements was to avoid going into all those difficulties immediately. In the case of one member of General Pile's staff, application has already been made to the War Office for transfer.
Is it not usual for a Minister to give the technical qualifications of persons transferred in this way? Since when has the distaste of the right hon. Gentleman become a Parliamentary convention?
My own distaste developed when the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) used to ask us almost every week what were the qualifications of the members of the Tank Board. I consider that it is very difficult for officers in a Government Department to carry on if they are going to be discussed in the House day by day. I have always understood that the Minister was constitutionally responsible for the appointments made, and for the efficient discharge of their functions by the officers employed. I am perfectly prepared to take responsibility for these appointments.
I beg to give notice that I will give my right hon. Friend an opportunity of developing this very unusual constitutional point on the Adjournment.
German Labour
asked the Minister of Works if any decision has yet been reached regarding the employment of German prisoners in bomb-damage repairs and in the rehousing programme.
In order to assist the housing programme, the Government have decided to use German prisoners of war in considerable numbers. They will be employed in the first place on road making, sewer construction, site preparation and other civil engineering work.
Will they also be used in clearing bombed sites?
They will, if necessary. I prefer to concentrate in the first place on the other work which I have enumerated.
Who will supervise these men when they are doing this work?
Guards will be provided in the usual way by the War Office authorities. Supervision of the actual building work will be done either by building contractors, to whom the men will be loaned, or, in some cases, by the Ministry of Works.
Closed Brickworks, Staffordshire
asked the Minister of Works if he is aware that there are brick kilns in the neighbourhood of Willenhall, Staffordshire, where no production is taking place; and whether, in view of the urgent need of bricks for housing, he will take steps to bring these into operation forthwith.
As in many other parts of the country, a proportion of the brickworks in South Staffordshire have been closed during the course of the war. There are at present ample stocks of bricks to meet anticipated requirements. Closed brickworks will be progressively re-opened as the building programme expands.
If I give my right hon. Friend the names of these brickworks, will he see that they are given a high priority, in view of the great shortage of houses in Wolverhampton and district?
I am sure that my hon. Friend would not wish preferential treatment to be given.
Prefabricated Houses
asked the Minister of Works the number of Swedish wooden houses, American prefabricated houses, Portal and other prefabricated houses, respectively, that have been actually erected or are in course of erection in this country.
About 1,800 of the British types. No houses from sources abroad have yet been received.
Questions
Broadcasting (Future Policy)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the termination at the end of 1946 of the charter of the B.B.C., he will cause to be set up a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament to consider the future of broadcasting in the United Kingdom.
I have been asked to reply. The future of broadcasting in the United Kingdom is at present under consideration, but my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is unable to make any statement on the subject at the moment.
When is a decision likely to be reached; and when would it be advisable to put down another Question?
My hon. Friend might make a personal inquiry on that matter. I could not give a date at present.
Does my right hon. Friend realise that the House of Commons takes a great interest in this matter and would like to be associated with any changes that are proposed?
By whom is the consideration being made?
The matter is under Ministerial consideration at present. I might observe that we have some time in which to consider this very important matter. I quite recognise the interests of the House in it.
In view of the possibility of a General Election this year, will my right hon. Friend consider the possibility of appointing a Royal Commission? Parliament might be very much pre-occupied, and it is interested in this matter.
I will take note of that suggestion.
Will my right hon. Friend take into consideration that Wales desires to be treated fairly?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the public would resent very much the B.B.C. being turned into an advertising agency for patent medicines? I hope that he will take that fact into consideration.
Will my right hon. Friend ask his numerous colleagues at San Francisco to report on the very much better system they have in America?
German Bomb Damage
asked the Prime Minister if he will give an estimate of the total damage to houses and property in this country through bombing; and if he will ensure that the Germans pay for this in reparations.
It is not possible at present to estimate closely the total damage caused to all property in this country as a result of German bombing attacks, but I think it would be safe to say that the figure will exceed £1,000,000,000. As already announced, a Commission is to be established, which will consider the question of the extent and methods for compensating the damage caused by Germany to the Allied Powers. Bomb damage will certainly not be left out of account in this connection.
Will the Germans, in particular, be invited to supply timber over a term of years?
That is a separate question.
Are we to understand that any contributions that Germany makes towards repairing war damage will lessen the War Damage Contribution now imposed on property owners in this country?
I do not think that that arises here, either.
Is my right hon. Friend's estimate of approximately £1,000,000,000 based on the actual damage done, at to day's cost, or is it the compensation which will be paid under the War Damage Act?
Any calculation must necessarily be based, in the first instance at any rate, on the compensation which is likely to be payable. I did not give an estimate of £1,000,000,000. I want to make it clear that what I said was that I thought it was safe to assume that the damage would be at least £1,000,000,000.
Wheat Flour
asked the Minister of Food on what date the decision was taken to reduce the extraction rate of wheat from 85 per cent. to 80 per cent.; and from what date it was made effective.
The answer to the first part of the Question is 4th August, 1944, and to the second part 31st December, 1944.
Can we be assured that the recommendation of the Nutritional and Medicinal Standing Committee was taken into full consideration before the decision was taken; and is it not a fact that they are totally opposed to the decision?
It was certainly taken into consideration, and it is not a fact that the Committee opposed the decision.
In view of the great anxiety caused to dieticians by this change, will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman place in the Library of the House the technical and dietetic advice which he received before he made this change?
I do not think that that would be the normal practice at all. It was a committee of officials reporting to Ministers, and it is not, of course, usual to publish such reports, but I am quite prepared at any time to explain to the House why this step was taken.
Is it not a fact that, in addition to officials, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman received advice from outside his Department—from members of the medical profession?
I have received a lot of advice from all quarters, including another place.
asked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that the result of lowering the extraction rate of wheat flour from 85 per cent. to 80 per cent. will mean the milling of 325,000 tons of extra wheat in exchange for 325,000 tons of extra animal feeding stuffs at a cost to the State of £1,500,000; and what advantage accrues from this change and to whom.
The answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes, Sir," assuming maize to be the alternative feeding stuff. The answer to the second part—more acceptable bread and flour; an advantage which accrues to everyone who eats bread, that is to a good many people.
The object of the Question was to ascertain who gets the £1,500,000. Will the Minister say who benefits by this?
Let us make clear who does not. The millers do not benefit, because they are on a management fee and have been throughout the war. This £1,500,000 is in addition to the subsidy on flour and bread.
May I ask the Minister whether it would not be to everybody's advantage to let the cattle have better food by feeding the grain direct, and to let the people have better bread by giving them 85 per cent. extraction?
It is my view, and the Government's view, that we are giving the people better bread by what we have done. If the hon. Member could see the letters of appreciation which I get from the public on this change, he would agree that the decision was right.
General Election (Paper Supplies)
asked the Minister of Supply how many tons of paper and board have been allocated for the General Election; if it is to be distributed under direction of the Paper Controller, through members of the Paper Merchants' Association or through an individual firm; and what is the price to be paid per ton.
asked the Minister of Supply by what machinery or procedure will candidates for election to Parliament secure envelopes in sufficient quantity and sufficient time to enable them to circulate their views to the electors.
The Government have given instructions that paper—including envelopes—is to be made available for the General Election at the rate of one ton for each candidate for a constituency of up to 40,000 electors, with an extra five hundredweights for every additional 10,000 electors; the quantity to be increased by one quarter for independent candidates. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] If hon. Members will allow me to proceed, I think they will see from the rest of the reply. The headquarters of the established parties will, in addition, be allowed paper at the rate of one ton for each candidate run by the party. In the case of the small parties, an additional five tons will be licensed, provided that their total quantity is not increased above 40 tons. On the announcement of the General Election, candidates will be entitled to obtain their paper on presentation to any paper merchant of a certificate that they intend to stand; this certificate will be signed by the candidate's agent. The certificate will entitle the merchant to obtain replacement of the quantity of paper supplied. There will, no doubt, be a large number of candidates, and, in order to ensure that they shall have no difficulty in securing their supplies promptly, the Paper Control will be ready to license delivery of stocks of paper in advance, upon which candidates may draw in due course, to a limited number of paper merchants with whom the parties have made arrangements. The maximum prices in the Control Orders will, of course, apply to these as to other sales.
May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether one firm is to do the whole of this distribution, instead of the different merchants?
No, I think I said that it is entirely a matter for the parties and candidates to choose the merchants whom they wish to supply the paper.
What will be the course adopted if a candidate subsequently retires and does not stand for election?
The arrangement has been made on an undertaking that the paper is only to be used for this purpose, and, if it is not required for this purpose, then the licence will be withdrawn.
Could the Minister say a word about the specially thin paper which is needed for air-mailing election addresses to the troops abroad?
That is rather a technical matter, and I think, perhaps, the hon. Member had better discuss it with the Department.
Is the Minister aware that the matter goes rather deeper, in that supplies of pulp to the paper manufacturers will have to be increased; otherwise, it is no good giving licences if the paper is not available? Secondly, is he not aware that he will require more labour for making envelopes, as that is the bottle-neck which makes it difficult to procure envelopes?
I think my hon. and gallant Friend can rest assured that these two matters have been taken care of.
Is it not a fact that, already, far too much paper has been used in Left Wing propaganda throughout the war, and will he not take that fact into account in the allocation of paper for the election?
Is my hon. Friend aware that it will be wrong to regard the Common Wealth Party as either established or independent?
Royal Navy
Far East Service
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty why sailors who have served for a long period in Near East waters are now being sent to the Far East; and in view of the disappointment caused to their relatives, will he arrange that men with over two years' continuous war service will not be transferred to the Far East without home leave.
Drafting requirements sometimes necessitate the transfer of men from one foreign station to another without returning home. Men are brought home after a certain length of service abroad regardless of station, so that the length of time they spend abroad is not increased by their being drafted from one station to another.
Explosion, Bootle, Cumberland (Compensation)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if, arising out of the explosion at Bootle, Cumberland, on 22nd March, 1945, he can now state who is responsible for payment of damage to property, etc.
I am authorised by my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty to state that the explosives in question were being transported at Admiralty risk, and that the Admiralty will be responsible within the limits of that Department's legal liability, for the payment of any proper claims for damage arising from the conveyance of these explosives.
Does that reply deal with the damage to property generally or railway company's property only?
I realise that, and I think I ought not to try to add to the very carefully prepared answer I have given.
Questions
Malaya (Rubber and Tin Industries)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is the Government's intention that the rubber and tin resources in Malaya, when freed, shall be handed back to foreign exploitation by private concerns or developed under public control in the interests of the native population.
British and other non-enemy rubber and tin companies will certainly be allowed to return to Malaya to resume possession of their properties and make their contribution to the vital task of rehabilitating these two industries, on which the economy of the whole territory so much depends.
British Colonial Sugar (Price)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether consideration is being given to measures designed to stabilise the price of sugar in British colonies with a view to assuring to the people dependent on sugar growing a reasonable standard of living.
Up to 31st December, 1946, all exportable surpluses of Colonial sugar will be purchased by the Ministry of Food on a price basis calculated to ensure a reasonable return to producers. After purchases by the Ministry of Food come to an end, whenever that may be, it is probable that any longer term arrangements for maintaining a fair and stable price of sugar will be a matter for international co-operation, and the framework of the International Sugar Agreement is being kept in being in order to provide machinery for any necessary international discussion.
May I take it that work on the long-term arrangements is being undertaken at present?
A considerable amount of study of the problem is going on.
In view of the fact that three years are necessary for the production of a sugar crop, will my right hon. and gallant Friend bear that in mind in any future international arrangements?
I will certainly bear that in mind.
Palestine (German Concentration Camp Survivors)
61 and 62.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether survivors in German concentration camps who have relatives in Palestine willing to receive them, will be allowed to join those relatives;
(2) whether he is aware that the Jewish community of Palestine is prepared to adopt and maintain in Palestine the 800 orphaned children in Buchenwald who are without any other home or place where they may be assured a normal future; and whether these children will be allowed to proceed to Palestine accordingly.
I am at present discussing with the High Commissioner and the Jewish Agency the question of further immigration within the White Paper limit: and I will certainly bear these important points in mind.
Does my right hon. and gallant Friend not realise that the people concerned in these two Questions form a very special and very small problem; and might they not be dealt with, in view of the very special circumstances, quite apart from the ordinary immigration facilities and quite without regard to the White Paper limit?
I fully sympathise with this and I said that I am going to take these points into consideration. But certain arrangements have to be made, even if those licences are granted, and the matter will involve discussion both with the High Commissioner and the Jewish Agency.
Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman realise that what rather prompted my supplementary question was not the discussions, which, I appreciate, are necessary, but because, in his answer, he said they are to be discussed "within the White Paper limit"? What I want to put to him is this: supposing the White Paper limit had already been reached, would it still be regarded as right to leave these 800 children in Buchenwald, White Paper or no White Paper?
That is purely a hypothetical question, because the amount out standing under the White Paper would fully cover the number within the quota.
Does not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman realise that these unfortunate children and people who have been through hell during the last few years should have a special claim to treatment on humane lines, and will he be a little more forthcoming?
The right hon. Gentleman is rather unfair. I think the House realises that, within the limits of having to discuss the details of the question, I have tried to give the most sympathetic answer. I fully realise that in all quarters it is felt that something should be done for these most unfortunate people.
While agreeing with what the Minister says, may I ask him where else can these 800 children go?
It is not a question of where else they can go.
May I ask my right hon. and gallant Friend to remember that not all of these children are Jewish and that the Jewish community are not willing to accept other than Jewish children, and, therefore, the figure of 800 is not correct?
In view of the defeat of Germany, is there any earthly reason why all German Jews should not now live in Germany?
Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman bear in mind that 999 Jews out of 1,000 at least, whose origin was Germany, will never go back there again, whether he lets them into Palestine, or whether he drowns them in the Mediterranean, as some were drowned at one time.
Order.
rose —
Mr. Creech Jones.
Is it not very unfair, that these people—
The hon. and gallant Member must take notice of me, when I am standing on my feet.
On a point of Order. Is an hon. Member entitled—
I have called the next Question and the hon. and gallant Member must not raise that matter again.
Kenya (Settlement Schemes)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if the Kenya Government have adopted any of the recommendations of the Report of the Settlement Schemes Committee; in what respects he has endorsed the proposals of the Kenya Government; whether Africans will have seats on the proposed statutory board and consultative committee concerned with farming training; what arrangements will be made for African training; what settlement schemes are being considered for locally-born Asians and Africans; what are the areas concerned; and what is being done for discharged and demobilised members of the forces in respect of land settlement.
As the reply is necessarily long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it with the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
In answer to the first and second parts of the Question, no decisions have yet been taken on the Report, which deals only with European settlement in the Highlands of Kenya, but the Kenya Government has issued an interim statement indicating that the Report is being recommended to me for my approval in broad principle. The matter is now under discussion in London with the Chief Secretary of Kenya. As regards the third part of the Question, representation of Africans would not be appropriate in this case, as the local bodies proposed in the Report will be concerned only with white settlement in the European areas.
With regard to the fifth and sixth parts of the Question, the Kenya Government has made it clear in its interim statement that not only European settlement but also the settlement of locally born Asians, and particularly of Africans, must be provided for. As regards locally born Asians, an Indian Settlement Board under the chairmanship of the Commissioner of Lands and Settlement is considering the provision of suitable areas. Arrangements have been made with the Tanganyika Government for a small number of Indians from Kenya to be trained at the Agricultural School at Morogoro, provided that candidates are forthcoming. As regards Africans, the Governor has stated that very considerable expenditure will be necessary and the Development Committee in Kenya has under consideration plans for the investigation and survey of areas likely to be suitable for such settlement, with a view to concrete schemes being prepared and translated into action quickly.
As to the fourth part of the Question, two Agricultural Training Schools for Africans are being established in Kenya with assistance from the Colonial Development and Welfare Vote at an estimated capital cost of £54,300. The recurrent costs (about £10,000 a year) will be met by the Kenya Government. The answer to the seventh and last part of this Question is that the settlement plans of the Kenya Government will take full account of the need for providing settlement facilities for ex-members of the Forces.
West Africa
Agricultural Conferences
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many agricultural conferences have been held in West Africa since 1938; and whether any Reports have been issued.
No general agricultural conferences have been held in British West Africa since 1938 and no reports have been issued. A cocoa conference was held at Tafo in the Gold Coast in 1943, which resulted in the seting up of the West African Cocoa Research Institute.
Is it not highly desirable that the agricultural conference should be held at an early date in view of the lapse of time since the last Report was published?
Certainly, Sir, as soon as practicable, but the hon. Member will realise that under war conditions, with a very great deal of under-staffing and many urgent problems, people simply have not been able to spare the time.
Medical Students and Nurses
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether there is any restriction on the number of West Africans who can apply for training in British medical schools and for training as nurses; and how many are now receiving such training in this country.
The answer to the first part of the Question is in the negative. Under war conditions, however, training institutions have been obliged to limit the number of Colonial medical students that can be accommodated. As regards nurses, students have hitherto come to this country only by private arrangement, but steps are now being taken by the Government to expand and systematise facilities for such training here. The number of West African medical students at medical schools in this country is understood to be 76 (including 12 Government scholars). There are also 11 medical students doing preliminary studies. There are believed to be about 10 girls being trained as nurses in this country.
While appreciating the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's reply, may I ask if we are to take it that there is no restriction at all in hospital schools or nursing centres against girls from Africa who have to come here to train?
The only restriction, of course, is that none of these training institutions at the present moment is able to take as many people as would go there and that these Colonial students suffer from that shortage of accommodation.
Is the Minister aware that there are some hospitals in the country, round the London area, where there are vacancies for girls now and they cannot get girls?
I would be very glad if the hon. Member would tell me of the vacancies.
Questions
Nigeria (Press Restrictions)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the "Nigerian Worker" is still censored; and how long restrictions on the Nigerian Press are likely to continue.
The reply to the first part of the Question is, so far as I am aware, in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I am making inquiries from the Governor.
Does not the Minister feel that the time has arrived when we should revert to the normal pre-war position?
I am taking this matter up with the Governor.
Defence Regulations (Revocations)
In accordance with the Government's declared policy of relaxing war-time restrictions as soon as changes in the war position make this possible and desirable, advance consideration was given to the question of what Defence Regulations could be dispensed with on the termination of hostilities in Europe, and I am glad to be able to announce that a large number of Defence Regulations have been revoked by Order in Council to-day. Five of the special codes of Regulations, including the Fire Guard Regulations, have been revoked entirely and parts of other special codes. Of the Defence (General) Regulations 84 have been revoked entirely and another 25 in part. The Regulations which have been revoved include those to which Parliament has rightly given especially vigilant attention because of their effect on the general field of civil liberties.
Among those revoked are the following:
Regulation 1AA which contained exceptional provisions relating to trade disputes, Regulations 2C and 2D which related to the systematic publication of matter calculated to foment opposition to the war effort, Regulation 18A which empowered the Home Secretary to restrict the movements and activities of suspected persons, and Regulation 18B, which is perhaps sufficiently well-known not to need description. By the beginning of this week the release of all persons detained under this Regulation had been authorised, with the exception of one alien who is to be deported and is being detained temporarily under a Deportation Order. There have also been revoked Regulation 18D, which authorised the temporary detention of suspected persons pending inquiries, together with the corresponding part of Regulation 88A, Regulation 39BA, which dealt with the publication of reports likely to cause alarm or despondency, and Regulation 39E, which gave special powers for the prohibition of processions and meetings.
It will of course be present to the minds of hon. Members that the end of the fighting in Europe is not the end of the war and that a number of the Regulations imposed whether for security or other reasons must be retained until the war against Japan has been brought to a successful conclusion. There also remains for consideration the question of such of the controls as will be required during the transitional period to ensure the best use of available supplies and services in the national interest. A Bill which will give the House an opportunity for the full consideration of this question is about to be introduced.
A Revocation Order will be laid before Parliament at once—copies will, I hope, be available in the Vote Office to-morrow—and its lengthy Schedules will show that every effort has been made to dispense without delay with those Regulations which have ceased to be essential now that the European war has come to an end.
As the Minister who has been chiefly concerned with certain limitations imposed on our civil liberties by the stress of war, I am happy to announce the sweeping away of these limitations, the relinquishment of the exceptional powers entrusted to the Home Secretary, and the return to those traditional British freedoms which all of us who hold the democratic faith are zealous to maintain.
In view of the fact that the number of Regulations repealed almost attains double figures, will my right hon. Friend say how many remain?
I am afraid I could not, but it will be a fair number for the time being.
In view of the fact that one of the detainees under 18B was Herr Hanfstaengel, who held an extremely important position in Berlin under the Nazi regime, and was an intimate friend of Herr Hitler's, might we know exactly how he is now employing his time, and if he is to be at liberty amongst us?
I speak from memory, but I do not think he was detained under 18B. AS an enemy alien he would be detained under the Royal Prerogative, and the Royal Prerogative goes on.
May I ask my right hon. Friend what is the position with regard to the travel restrictions which have operated between Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
The House will appreciate that I cannot carry in my mind every one of the Regulations in question—and, after all, this is VE plus one day. However, I can assure my right hon. Friend that I am watching that position very closely. There are transport and other considerations involved, and there may be something relevant here, but in any case I can assure him that I will not delay a minute longer than is necessary.
Could my right hon. Friend say whether the conditions that were imposed on some of those who were released earlier from detention under 18B have been relaxed—so that, for example, Sir Oswald Mosley could now start a party advocating the extension of Japanese Imperialism?
It follows that if the Regulation is revoked, there is no power to maintain conditions on Suspending Orders under 18B, and that fact must be faced. But if there were criticism on that point, I would reply that, if Parliament wants to confer exceptional powers on the Executive in this respect Parliament should legislate for it, and I should not take advantage of war-time legislation.
May I ask whether, when the House has had time to consider the statement, an opportunity will be given for discussion, if such a request is made?
That is, of course, a matter for the Leader of the House. I doubt whether the House will wish, necessarily, to have a discussion, but if it does, representations can be made through the usual channels. I ought to add this further to my answer to the question of the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) that, of course, the Emergency Powers Act remains. If, therefore, a situation arose which had to be taken into account, in relation to the war effort against Japan, it would always be free to the Executive to propose new Regulations, but that would be subject to challenge in the House if the House wished to challenge.
Will my right hon. Friend issue a White Paper giving particulars of the Regulations which still remain, so that the public may know what the law of the land is in these matters?
The Regulations are published. They are in a volume and they are available in the Library. This Order will show the Regulations which will be revoked; therefore, it is a simple matter to compare what is being revoked with what remains.
With reference to the question of a possible Debate, I thought the right hon. Gentleman intimated that the possibility of Debate would arise on the Bill which is to be introduced. I would like to know what is the position.
I am much obliged to my hon. and learned Friend. The Bill, which will deal only with supplies and services in the transitional period, will of course be open to full Parliamentary debate, but it is not as wide as the statement I have made.
In view of the large number of Regulations which still remain, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that they will be justified to Parliament annually?
They must be in a way, because the continuance of the Emergency Powers Act depends upon an annual Resolution of both Houses of Parliament. Therefore, we can be challenged annually, but I would add that I will undertake, as Home Secretary, on behalf of the Government, that we will keep the closest watch on all these Regulations with a view to review from time to time and to their surrender as and when they no longer serve the public interest.
Arising out of the reply of the Home Secretary, surely it is not unreasonable to ask that the public should know what Regulations are in force?
With great respect, if the ordinary small man got documents of this kind, he would still be in difficulties. The persons concerned know the Defence Regulations which concern them, and this document will show which are repealed. Therefore, it is all quite simple.
Have we now got rid of the black-out Regulations in coastal areas?
Not quite. My right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty assures me—and I am sure he knows what he is talking about—that there is still some element of risk and danger to our own shipping. That is real, but he also assures me that he is watching the position hour by hour, that he will help me to get rid of the Regulations at the earliest moment, and he hopes that will not be long.
May I ask my right hon. Friend if his reply means that there is only one deportation order now against an alien, that that man is held, and that the other orders have been cancelled?
No, not at all. There was one alien within the purview of 18B and it was necessary to do something about him. I have done something about him by making a deportation order, but there are quite a number of other deportation orders—and I can make them.
German Concentration Camps (Parliamentary Delegation)
I desire to ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, upon a certain matter which may involve a question as to the Privilege of the House. A Delegation of hon. Members of this House, chosen by you, together with Members of another place, chosen by its Leader, attended at the German concentration camp at Buchenwald in order that they might inspect and report upon certain facts which have been alleged concerning it. That Delegation reported upon the facts it had observed, without comment or recommendation in order that Parliament might be satisfied of their truth. It now appears that in one film version of the visit shown to the public there are interpolated two interviews, the one with Lord Vansittart and the other with Congresswoman Mrs. Claire Booth Luce. In these interpolations, the persons mentioned expressed certain judgments and political views, and the film is so arranged as to associate the Delegation with those judgments and views. As the whole purpose of the visit was to establish, in an objective fashion and without propaganda or political purpose of any kind, the accuracy or otherwise of the allegations, I desire to ask you, Sir, for advice as to how the Delegation may protect itself from the attribution to it of comments which it has not made and whether any breach of Privilege has occurred?
Before you give your Ruling on that point, Mr. Speaker, may I say on a question of fact that there would be definite difference of opinion on the statement of the hon. Gentleman that the form of presentation of the news reel film could be held to attribute the remarks of Congresswoman Mrs. Claire Booth Luce or Lord Vansittart to the report of the official British Parliamentary Delegation?
The hon. Member gave me notice of this question, and I may say that I sympathise very much with the case he has put forward. I do not think we can consider this as a matter of Privilege, and I think that perhaps the best thing I can do is to give my opinion, which may be some protection to the hon. Members who took part in this Delegation. The introduction of controversial matter into such a film is, in my judgment, wholly out of place, and I feel that it would be calculated to defeat the very purpose for which the delegation was sent, namely, to ascertain and make public the actual facts.
Orders of the Day
Hydro-Electric Undertakings (Valuation for Rating) (Scotland) Bill
As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
CLAUSE 1.—(North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board's Undertaking to be valued by Assessor of Public Under takings (Scotland).)
3.32 p.m.
I beg to move, in page 1, line 8, after "undertaking," insert "as hereinafter defined."
In Committee a question was raised as to whether dwelling houses and land used for sporting and agricultural purposes were included within the purview of this Clause. My answer was that they were intended to be excluded and that as I read the Bill they were excluded; but I agree that the matter was not wholly free from doubt, and I undertook to examine it before the Report stage. In order to make it quite clear that these subjects are not included we propose to insert into the Clause the words in the Amendment, so as to link it up with the definition that comes on page 3. That will make it clear in the definition that these classes of property are not included.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 2.—(Valuation of generating works forming part of a hydro-electric installation.)
I beg to move, in page 3, line 3, leave out from beginning, to "generating," in line 4, and insert "but does not include."
This is little more than a drafting Amendment. As the Bill stands the subjects mentioned in the next few lines are excluded from the definition of generating works for all purposes except those under Sub-section (1) of the Clause. On reconsideration we think that keeping them in that Sub-section serves no useful purpose. The Amendment will make no difference to the ambit of the concessions under the Bill but will save a certain amount of unnecessary work to officials.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 3, line 20, leave out from "description," to "for," in line 21, and insert:
"forming part of that undertaking and installed, erected or constructed."
On going over these definitions again in the light of the Amendments we are proposing we thought there might be room for some ingenious arguments if we left this part of the Clause in its present form. The whole purpose of this drafting Amendment is to make our intention perfectly clear.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 3, line 25, leave out "a hydro electric," and insert "an."
This is purely a drafting Amendment. The words "a hydro-electric" would occur twice and are surplus and therefore we take them out.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 3, line 34, after "installed," insert "or erected."
This Amendment also is moved to fore stall ingenious arguments that we foresaw might occur with the Bill as it stands.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 3, line 38, leave out "includes," and insert "means."
This and the remaining Amendments on this Clause all go together. They are in tended to carry out the purpose which I mentioned on the first Amendment, and to make it clear that subjects which do not contribute to the generation of electricity shall not come into the computation under the Bill. I think I explained the matter adequately on the first Amendment, unless the House wishes further details.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: In page 3, line 40, leave out "supplying electricity generated," and insert "generating electricity."—[ The Lord Advocate. ]
I beg to move, in page 3, line 24, at end, insert:
"but shall not include any dwelling-houses of any lands and heritages which are let by such undertakers or which are not used or adapted for use for the purposes of the functions of such undertakers with regard to the generation or supply of electricity."
While I agree that the Lord Advocate is giving effect to his undertakings, I should be happier if he would give some explanation of what exactly constitutes a "let." The dwelling houses attached to a generating station or any of the various works of a company may be a part of the emoluments of an office. In that case would they be regarded as let to the occupant of that office for the time being, or would they appear in the valuation roll as a subject which had been let to the officer?
My hon. Friend will observe that this Amendment excludes three separate classes of property, and if any property falls within any one of those three classes it is excluded. The first class are dwelling houses, whether let or not. The second class are any lands or heritages which are let. My hon. Friend may remember that a good deal of controversy occurred some years ago in the Scottish Courts with regard to railway property, where a somewhat similar question comes in. We thought it right, keeping in line with existing practice, that any property let, of any kind, should be within this category. In the third category is property not used or constructed for use in connection with the generation or supply of electricity. I think my explanation has completely met my hon. Friend's point.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 3.—(Electricity Commissioners to certify kilowatts installed and to determine questions.)
I beg to move, in page 4, line 8, leave out from "the," to the second "the," in line 9, and insert:
"continuous maximum rating in kilowatts of any generating plant at any generating station comprised in."
Some exception was taken in all quarters of the Committee to the extent of the jurisdiction conferred by the Bill upon the Electricity Commissioners. At that time I said that I thought the right way to meet those criticisms was to make the Electricity Commissioners judges of fact in the first instance and to allow an appeal against their decisions upon any question of law. On looking into the matter we found that was not practicable, because of the time factor. A number of these decisions must be taken before certain fixed dates in the year, and it would be somewhat difficult to work in the scheme I had in mind without there being danger of some confusion. We have, therefore, decided, following the criticisms which were raised in Committee, that all questions which give rise to questions of law shall pass the Commissioners and go direct to the Courts in the ordinary way. We have, however, retained for the Com missioners, and made the decision of the Commissioners final, one particular question, which seems to be purely technical and incapable of raising legal issues, the question of what is the continuous maximum rating in kilowatts of any generating plant at any generating station. I am told that while these machines are marked when they are bought with a certain rated power in kilowatts that probably they may change as time goes on and it may be necessary at some time to assess the precise capacity and power of the machine. That seems eminently a task for the Electricity Commissioners and not a suitable subject for a court of law. With this sole exception all the questions will go to the Courts. This Amendment and those which follow go together, and are calculated to achieve the object which I have stated.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In page 4, line 10, leave out "and the cost per kilowatt."
In line 12, leave out "number or cost," and insert "continuous maximum rating."
In line 13, leave out Sub-section (2).—[ The Lord Advocate. ]
CLAUSE 5.—(Sums equal to reduction in rates payable by authorised undertakers in consequence of Section 2 to be applied as Electricity Commissioners direct.)
I beg to move, in page 4, line 35, after "undertakers," insert:
"in accordance with directions given by the Electricity Commissioners."
This is a drafting Amendment to make it quite clear that the Electricity Com missioners will give directions with regard to all the matters mentioned in the latter part of the Clause, because, as the Clause is drafted, there is a little doubt as to whether the powers and duties of the Com missioners are quite so wide.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 4, line 36, leave out from "consumers," to end of Clause, and insert:
"Provided that where the Electricity Commissioners are satisfied that the aforesaid difference exceeds the net gain accruing to the undertakers by the operation of Section two of this Act, the sum required to be applied as aforesaid shall be a sum equal to that net gain."
In the course of the Committee stage a point was made that a result of the Bill as it stands might be that an undertaker who got a concession under the Bill might be out of pocket thereby, because he might have to pay away under Clause 5 more money than he got in relief of taxation. We looked into the matter and we feel that in the great majority of cases—probably in every case—that difficulty would be avoided in practice, but there is at the very least a theoretical possibility that the difficulty could arise, and we do not think that we ought to leave the Bill in such a shape. It would not be right under the guise of giving a concession to impose a liability, and therefore we wish to make the matter quite clear by importing the proviso.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be read the Third time."
3.45 p.m.
I think someone should make a few observations before we part with this Bill, and I, therefore, rise to do so, as briefly as possible. Although this Bill is a very considerable improvement on the Bill which first came before us, it is still, from my point of view, very disappointing, because it does not do the thing which some of us hoped for—level out the rating burden as between hydro-electric and thermal stations. It fails completely in that, and is not so much a Bill for levelling out that burden as for helping the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board to carry out its functions. In a sense it provides a subsidy not only for that Board, but for certain uneconomic areas in the North of Scotland, all at the expense of other local authorities. There fore, I can only express the hope that the Secretary of State may, at some future date, go a little further and introduce a Bill which will give us equity as between these two types of electricity undertakings.
This Bill has left out of the benefit which it gives—and that is a minor benefit —certain undertakings which are driven by hydro-electricity, or supplied by hydro-electricity, and which have been of the greatest benefit to the Highlands. I think it is a great misfortune that nothing has been done to encourage those industries. Having said that, I would like to thank the Secretary of State and the Lord Advocate for the great courtesy they have shown to those of us who put certain matters before them in connection with this Bill, and for the trouble they have taken to try to find words which would meet our views. I appreciate that very much, and in saying so, I am sure I am expressing the feeling not only of my hon. Friends on this side, but the feeling of every Member of the Scottish Grand Committee.
3.47 p.m.
I enter a protest against what seems to be, in this Bill, the introduction of a new form of rating in Scotland. It seems that the profits from remunerative schemes in certain districts are to be used to subsidise other schemes which are not economical. For instance, in Perthshire you might have a scheme which would make a profit, and the rating value there would be reduced in proportion to the amount of loss incurred on other uneconomic schemes. It must be evident therefore that people in Perthshire will have to subsidise electricity elsewhere. That sort of thing is to be done by the taxpayers as a whole, wherever there are profitable schemes. The more profits made in economical schemes, the greater will be the inducement for the Board to launch forth in other schemes. Altogether this is a thoroughly bad Bill and, as has been just said by my hon. and gallant Friend, it is a subsidy to the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board.
3.48 p.m.
I associate myself with the concluding remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith). I am sure we are indebted to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, to the Lord Advocate, and to their advisers for having been able to get this Bill through with the minimum of trouble. Might I also express regret that the local authorities have received so little consideration in the rating proposals associated with this Measure? I must not deliver a Second Reading speech now, although I am tempted to do so by what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Forfar (Captain Shaw), so I confine myself to saying that I think the greatest good will come to the greatest number because of this Bill.
3.49 p.m.
I would like to express appreciation, on behalf of my right hon. Friend and others who have assisted in the passing of this Bill, for what has just been said, and to say that I think a considerable debt is also due to the Scottish Grand Committee for dealing as quickly as they did with this complicated and difficult Measure. I tried to explain, during the early stages of the proceedings on the Bill, the reasons for the provisions to which allusion has been made again to-day, but I am afraid I did not succeed in convincing some of my hon. Friends then, and I am sure that nothing I could add now will succeed where I failed then. Moreover, if my hon. Friends will accept it as not being discourteous to them, I do not think I should try to say over again what I said before.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Bill
As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
CLAUSE 18.—(Disposal or appropriation by local planning authority of land held by them for purposes of this Part.)
3.50 p.m.
I beg to move, in page 32, line 8, leave out Sub-section (6), and insert:
"(6) Where land is disposed of under this Section by a local planning authority to any person for the erection of a church or other building for religious worship or buildings ancillary thereto then, unless the parties other wise agree, such disposal shall be by way of feu."
In the course of our Committee discussions on this Bill a number of hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbartonshire (Mr. McKinlay), raised a question on an Amendment inserted into the Bill to provide for feus being given in respect of sites for religious buildings. It was suggested that the words, "church authority," were not sufficiently definite, and might be too restrictive, and it was also suggested that the word, "church," was not an appropriate word to denote the religious edifices which we have in mind. I said then that it was our intention not to exclude any religious body from this Amendment, and I therefore trust that the words on the Order Paper will be regarded as sufficiently wide to meet the points which were raised on the Committee stage.
3.54 p.m.
I thank the Lord Advocate for having given to this matter the consideration which it merits. I think it is a subject for congratulation that an arrangement has been reached whereby feus shall be granted, unless otherwise agreed. I hope those upon whom this privilege has been conferred—and it is a privilege—will not use it for the purpose of preventing the proper development of any area in the future. It is amazing to find that only one Amendment has emerged following the Committee stage. The reason is that Part II of the Bill might as well be put into the ash-can, because there is nothing in it to commend. I had it in mind, at one time, to move the rejection of this Measure, but I refrained from doing so because I realised that planning is the last thing that will ever take place under this Bill.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be read the Third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
Liabilities (War-Time Adjustment) (Scotland) Bill [Lords]
Order for Second Reading read.
3.56 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
Early in 1941 a Liabilities (War-Time Adjustment) Bill was introduced for England and, quite shortly, it provided that any person in serious financial difficulties owing to war circumstances, should be able to attain an equitable and reasonable scheme of arrangement with his creditors. When my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General moved the Second Reading of that Bill, he made it clear that one of its main purposes was to provide for cases which were arising in areas where there had been large-scale evacuations of population. The Bill contained very elaborate provisions. My predecessor in office and I considered, at that time, whether it was appropriate to introduce a corresponding Measure for Scotland, and we thought it was not. On succeeding to my present office, nearly four years ago, one of the first things I did was to make fairly extensive inquiry of those who were in a position to advise me on this matter, on whether there was, or likely to be, any real need in Scotland for procedure of this character. All I heard then confirmed my first impression, that such a Bill was not necessary. It was not necessary because we did not have large-scale evacuations of population and, furthermore, our ordinary procedure in matters of this kind is considerably more flexible than the ordinary English procedure.
Since that time I have taken the occasion, from time to time, to make further inquiries I get a good many representations at various times on one subject and another, but neither those representations nor those inquiries have as yet brought to my knowledge any case where the lack of provisions similar to those in the 1941 English Act has caused any disadvantage to anybody. The matter would have remained there had it not been that a further and amending English Act was introduced at the end of last year, and passed at the end of the last Parliamentary Session. That Act confers on debtors, whose embarrassment is due to war circumstances, valuable new rights, and the most important perhaps is that where the debtor's embarrassment is due to war circumstances, the Crown gives up its ordinary privilege of preference in the payments of its debts, and so, under the English Act, do local authorities. There are various other provisions with regard to relief from rent, etc., which I need not go into in detail. The Government took the view that it would be right that similar advantages should be made available to people in Scotland, and accordingly this Bill has been prepared with that as one of its main objects. The other main object arises in a different way. Under the Courts (Emergency Powers) Acts there is a provision which, so far as I know, has worked well—there is one case which I know the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean) has in mind in which he thinks it did not work very well, but I will leave that aside, because I do not think it is relevant to discuss it on this Bill—
Yes, it is.
Then I will say a few words about it before I finish my speech. The Courts (Emergency Powers) Acts work well enough so long as they survive, but they do not enable a final settlement of questions which arise under them to be achieved. What they do is to prevent a creditor from taking action against his debtor so long as the Acts re main in operation, but we have got to make provision for the day when the Acts come to an end. There has been a large number of orders under the Acts. I have no means of knowing how many of the cases have been settled amicably out of court since the orders were made, although I have no doubt a very large number of them have been so settled, but there are bound to be some, and there may be a considerable number of, cases where no settlement has been made out of court and where, if the Acts came to an end without more ado, the creditor would be in a position immediately to make some crippling claims against his debtor, and the debtor's last state would be no better than his first. Therefore, it is necessary, before these Acts come to an end, that we should provide some means whereby outstanding disputes can be equitably settled. This Bill is also calculated to achieve that object. The machinery which we have incorporated in the Bill is considerably simpler than the machinery in the English Measure. For one thing, we anticipate the number of cases under the Bill will be comparatively small, and it may be very small. Secondly, we have benefited to some extent by the experience which has been gained of the administration of the code in England, and thirdly, our existing provision for dealing with matters of this kind in court and out of court is very flexible, and therefore, we do not need to go into as much detail in this Bill as perhaps otherwise we should have had to do.
I will give only a very brief outline of the provisions of the Bill because a great many of them are very complicated and are, in my view, not likely to be used in more than a handful of cases; indeed, some of them I do not think we would ever have devised had it not been that we found provisions of this kind in English legislation and thought it would be a pity if even a single case were to be prejudiced by reason of there not being corresponding provisions in this Bill. The main lines of the Bill are that a person who, owing to war circumstances, is either unable to pay his debts, or finds himself in such a position that if he does pay in full he will not have enough left to enable him to carry on his business or maintain his family is entitled to go to the Sheriff Court with a statement of his affairs. If the court sees fit, as it would if a prima facie case were made, the court remits the matter to a trustee to investigate. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will have to set up a panel of trustees, if this Bill becomes law, and those trustees will give part time work and will be paid by the Exchequer. The services of the trustee will cost the debtor nothing. That is in line with existing English law. If the trustee on investigation thinks that the Act applies to the applicant's case and that there is a case for the debtor obtaining relief, the trustee's first duty is to try to negotiate a settlement with all the creditors, and experience leads one to hope that in a very large number of cases the trustee will be successful in negotiating a settlement with agreement all round; but in those cases where that proves impracticable, the trustee's duty will be to prepare a scheme and to report that scheme to the court. The sheriff will then hear any party who is interested to appear and state his views and the sheriff may, on hearing parties, either confirm the trustee's scheme or vary it, or it may be reject it altogether, which would mean that a new scheme would have to be prepared. Once the scheme in its original or improved form is approved by the court, it becomes binding on all the creditors whether they assent to it or not. I have outlined the provisions of the first two Clauses of the Bill.
The third Clause lays down the matters which may be dealt with in the scheme. There may be provision for either immediate or delayed realisation of the debtor's property. There may be provision to secure that the debtor and his family are not deprived of proper maintenance, that they are not deprived of the house which is their home, and that means are found to enable the debtor's business to continue, it may be under supervision or it may not. There are also provisions which allow of the reduction of rent in special circumstances, of the reformation of hire-purchase agreements and the reformation in terms of the Moneylender Act of money lending transactions. We think that a scheme on such broad outlines will do justice. In fact, in practice at present I have reason to believe that matters of this sort are frequently dealt with by amicable arrangements. In Clause 4 there is one of the main reasons for having the Bill, the provision that all debts, including Crown and local authority debts, rank equally. They do not do so under existing law. We have not in this Bill gone so far with regard to local authorities as the English Act goes, because the circumstances appear to be different. We do not have evacuation areas on a large scale and we do not think local authorities' claims should be postponed to the same extent in Scotland as it is competent to postpone them under the English Act. Then follow a series of elaborate Clauses dealing with special cases. I do not think I need say anything about them, although no doubt in Committee we may discuss them.
Before concluding, I will say a word or two about the case which the hon. Member for Govan has in mind. In that case there were three parties involved—the debtor and two guarantors. The hon. Member took exception to the fact that an Amendment of the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act was overdue for Scotland, and claimed that its delay had caused embarrassment to those guarantors. We did not reach agreement on that question. I held to my view and he held to his. All that it is relevant to say here is that, whatever be the rights and wrongs of that, the presence of this Bill on the Statute Book at the relevant time, or rather the provisions of the 1941 English Act, would have made not the slightest difference, so far as my investigation of the case leads me to believe.
The very fact of the Lord Advocate bringing in trustees and other provisions to safeguard the debtor, the fact that that has been provided under the English Act since 1941 and that this Bill is being brought in only in 1945, When the war in Europe has finished, is an indication of carelessness or neglect on the part of the Scottish Legal Department.
The House will judge whether the account which I have given indicates the presence of those undesirable qualities. All that the guarantors suffered at the end of the day was a sum of costs or expenses. They suffered no other damage of any sort or kind according to my information. That sum was estimated at £3,000 by the hon. Member, but my estimate is very much lower. Nothing I have been able to discover leads me to think that the procedure under this Bill, which would have required them to put their whole assets and business into the pool for a scheme of arrangement—
Cannot the Lord Advocate remember that I stated, as he also knew, that the guarantors had actually billed their establishment for sale and also all the machinery in that factory, which was doing war work at the time?
The hon. Member will correct me if I am wrong, but my information is that although judgment was obtained against these gentlemen, it has not been operated, except with regard to the order for costs, and it is now too late to operate the order, and it cannot be operated without the protection which he sought at that time.
We seem to be at cross purposes. Although the matter has never been pressed home, it still is a fact that bills were put up for a public sale of the property, the machinery and the building, of that particular firm, and but for action taken the sale would have taken place, because there was no protection, again due to neglect on the part of the Scottish Office.
I do not want to deal with hypothetical questions of what might have happened. I am dealing with what has happened. These people have been called upon to pay a certain sum in costs, and that is all the prejudice that they have suffered. This Bill would have made no difference whatever to their rights. We expect that the introduction of the new rule about equal ranking of debts will lead to more just settlements both for debtors and creditors in a number of cases, but we expect that a good many of these settlements will take place out of court. We do not expect a great many applications to the courts under the Bill. Furthermore, we think that the presence of this machinery on the Statute Book will expedite friendly settlement of outstanding cases under the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act. Again, if that proves impossible in any single case, we expect that the provisions of this Bill will enable the matter to be equitably adjusted. Therefore I present the Bill as one which will achieve a useful purpose, though in a limited way, in enabling those who, owing to war circumstances, have become embarrassed to get back on their feet again after the war with the least possible financial embarrassment.
4.17 p.m.
We are indebted to the Lord Advocate for his account of the Bill and, speaking I think for all sections of the House, we welcome the introduction into Scottish law of a Bill which is broadly similar to the Acts relating to England which have already been carried through Parliament. I think it is in accordance with the more humane outlook which prevails at the present day, that this and other Measures which have found their way on to the Statute Book should be carried into law. They have, both in England and in Scotland, avoided certain hardships and I am very glad that the Lord Advocate has come to the conclusion that there were items at any rate in the second English Act which, if incorporated into the law of Scotland, will be of benefit to persons who are placed in unfortunate circumstances owing to the war. I am particularly glad that the provision relating to the Crown has been incorporated because it will be of benefit to the parties concerned. There may or may not be points that we may want to look into in Committee, but, so far as the general principles of the Bill are concerned, I have no hesitation in agreeing with the Lord Advocate in asking the House to give it a Second Reading.
4.19 p.m.
I join with the right hon. Gentleman in welcoming the Bill. Even though it comes perhaps a little late, it seems to me that it will give a valuable protection. As the Lord Advocate said, these matters are generally arranged without the need of recourse to law, but occasionally a creditor will not agree to anything because he thinks he can blackmail the debtor, and get away with something more than he is entitled to. I think the Bill will provide a valuable safeguard against that kind of thing and I welcome it.
4.20 p.m.
The Lord Advocate will remember the case that I put to him when he introduced the Courts (Emergency Powers) Bill. I think he will remember that the statement which I then made on behalf of a firm, in my constituency, evoked the sympathy of Members who were present and led him to promise to look into the matter and see if anything could be done in the serious financial position in which the firm was placed by a creditor who carried the case to the House of Lords. From that day to this the Lord Advocate has never approached me to discuss the matter. Whether he thinks it is going to be settled by this Bill I do not know.
indicated dissent.
Then the right hon. and learned Gentleman has not kept his promise and has done nothing. He now intimates that this Bill will not give the relief that it is likely to give to other firms. I have a letter here from one of his officials. A member of the firm wrote to the Scottish Office to ask if there was any possibility of measures being adopted to lighten their position, and this is the reply that their solicitor received:
Crown Office,
Edinburgh.
27th November, 1942.
"Dear Sir,
I refer to your letter of 24th November to the Crown Agent, which he has handed to me. The Courts (Emergency Powers) Amendment Act, 1942, does not apply to Scotland and I am not aware that similar legislation for Scotland is contemplated. The question whether legislation applying to Scotland on the lines of the Liabilities (War-time Adjustment) Act, 1941, should be undertaken is under consideration."
I do not wish to place on record the name of the official who signed the letter, but I can show it to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. The writer states that the question whether legislation applying to Scotland should be under taken was under consideration. Now on 9th May, 1945, a day after the declaration of peace, it is introduced. I wonder how long the Scottish Office has to contemplate a matter before it brings it before the House. No wonder that Scottish affairs are going into the background and we find a constituency returning a Scottish Nationalist. I ask the Lord Advocate whether something is to be done in the way of retrospective legislation and, if not, what becomes of his promise to the House over a year ago to consider whether something should be done to ease the situation of this firm. There may be other firms in the same position which will not have assistance because the Bill does not go far enough. I think the Lord Advocate should clarify the situation considerably more than he has done, and show why, in some cases, firms are protected, while in others they are not. Failing that, I am certain that the House will, sooner or later, see to it that another Bill is brought in to cover other firms which have fallen into arrears of payment through war conditions and are being harassed by their creditors—the situation with which, I understand, the Bill is supposed to deal.
4.30 p.m.
It seems to me that this Bill is typical of the kind of thing we have had dealt out to Scotland in recent years. It is typical in the matter and manner of its presentation. If the Bill is necessary for Scotland now, it was necessary a considerable time ago. The Lord Advocate says that he is not aware of any firm that has lost anything by this Bill not having been already on the Statute Book. If that is so, what is his point in bringing it in at all? I would suggest that this Bill was necessary some time ago. In fact, if this were a good Bill it appears that it would have helped perhaps the only firm in Scotland which has suffered from the very circumstances which the Bill is apparently designed to protect a company from. If this is a useful and necessary Measure now, I can not see why it should be restricted to peculiarly war circumstances, because there is no doubt that, however long the war against Japan may last, firms in Scotland will for some time be suffering; whether from war circumstances or not, they will certainly be suffering from Government circumstances. If this Bill was to be of any value at all, it should protect those firms against Government circumstances.
I am interested to note the great interest in Scottish affairs which is taken by the other political parties in Scotland as shown by their representation here to-day! I notice from the empty benches that the Labour Party has a particularly high percentage of attendance. My party is the only one which has 100 per cent. representation. That is precisely the kind of thing which happens with Scottish affairs all the time, and the question is whether the Scottish Office or the Members of this House from Scotland are prepared to give any lead to the people of Scotland in this or any other matter, or whether they are going to wait until the people of Scotland refuse to give them the opportunity to lead any longer. The Lord Advocate and his Department have shown an abominable lack of any initiative in introducing this Bill at this time. He has said that some of the provisions would not have been devised if they were not already incorporated in English legislation. That is the last reason for incorporating provisions in any Bill relating to Scotland. Surely, provisions should be incorporated in a Scottish Bill only if they are necessary for Scotland. Apparently, the Lord Advocate has completely forgotten the principles of Scottish law. He may remember the famous man who said some time ago that there was more of the principles of law, liberty and freedom in the three small volumes relating to Scottish law than in all the multifarious Statutes that have come out of Westminster.
I suggest that the Lord Advocate should derive some inspiration from legal predecessors in what was once a free Scotland instead of following out the abominable, ridiculous and absurd traditions of the last few years. I hope that he will never again present a Measure in this form to this House, or to any other place which I hope will soon be set up North of the Border.
4.35 p.m.
By the leave of the House, I will make a few remarks. With regard to the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. McIntyre), I am afraid this is not a very good opportunity for him to bring forward these considerations, which I know he will bring forward on other Bills in due course. He asks why this Bill was not introduced long ago. The reason is a very simple one. The problem of embarrassment owing to evacuation and other war circumstances has been much more intense in England than it has been in Scotland. We could not ask for concessions in advance of England in those circumstances. Therefore, it was not possible to bring in what I regard as the core of this Bill until it had been agreed that it was appropriate for England. I am entirely in agreement with the view that, where we both start, so to speak, on level terms and have a problem of a similar magnitude, there is no reason why Scotland should be behind England in dealing with it. It is within the recollection of the House that there have been in recent years several such problems which Scotland has dealt with in advance of England. Indeed, there are some which will occur to hon. Members in regard to which England has not yet introduced legislation similar to that introduced in Scotland. Whether it is necessary in England I do not know, but we have gone our own way without waiting for England on quite a number of problems. The problem dealt with in this Bill is nothing like as great in Scotland as it is in England. Therefore, it was only reasonable that we should not try to get this concession for Scotland until England had got it.
Will the Lord Advocate tell the House what it is that Scotland got that England did not get? Is it not the case that we are regulated down to the level of England?
I have noticed a growing tendency in the Debate to leave this Bill. This is not the time for a general discussion on what England or Scotland has got, or is lacking.
With respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, the Lord Advocate made a statement in your hearing, and I am now challenging it before it goes to the world, because it is inaccurate. We are regulated by 11/80ths of what goes to England—
When I said there was a growing tendency to leave this Bill, it was intended as a hint to the Minister that he was going too far, and to any other Member who might be tempted to follow him. We cannot go into the larger question now.
I hope that the Minister will be in Order in replying to my query.
Not just now; some other time.
"Now's the day, and now's the hour."
It may be the day and the hour, but it is not the Bill.
I shall not say any more with regard to the points raised by the hon. Member for Motherwell, except on one detailed point on which my remarks were subject to misconstruction. What I meant was that there are some of the provisions, for example, with regard to companies, which are extremely involved owing to circumstances which are unlikely to arise in Scotland, and that those provisions are really put in, not with any anticipation that they will ever be necessary, but to meet the possible case that they might be necessary. I do not expect that they will be.
With regard to the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean), he will recollect that on the occasion when this matter was discussed before, I explained in full the reasons why the Bill he was then talking on had been introduced at that time. He did not accept those reasons. I put them forward as valid reasons, and I still think that they were valid. I agreed that I would see whether it was possible to obtain any assistance of any kind for the company in which he was interested. I agreed to do so, not because I thought that any negligence on our part had prejudiced the company, but because the hon. Member asked me to do so. I did not indicate that I held out any definite hope or undertaking that that endeavour would lead to anything. The hon. Member will remember that shortly after that Debate, I asked him for his suggestions as to possible methods of dealing with the matter. His suggestions and any others that occurred to me and those who advised me were in due course examined, and I certainly understood that the hon. Member was aware that our endeavours had come to nothing. I am sorry if I did not formally communicate with him, and I am sorry if I was wrong in my impression that he was aware of it. I apologise to him if he was not made aware of it at the right time. We completed our examination in a matter of weeks—it may have been months—after that Debate, and I regretted at the time that nothing could be done. I could not discover any practicable scheme. I was not looking for a method of assisting these people because I thought the Government or I had been responsible in any degree for their difficulties; I was doing so because the hon. Member asked me to do so, and I thought it a reasonable request to comply with. I am sorry it was not more successful.
The hon. Member asked how it comes about that, if the question was under consideration in 1942, this Bill does not come before the House until 1945. It is, again, for the reason that I mentioned before. The consideration in 1942 led us to the conclusion that a Bill was not then necessary or desirable. It only became necessary or desirable after the passing of the 1944 English Act at the end of last Session. That was the first date on which, in my view, this Bill became desirable for Scotland. Therefore I am not surprised that a letter was sent in 1942 in the terms of that quoted by the hon. Member. It certainly did not say, as I understood it, that we were going to introduce a Bill. As I explained at an earlier stage, our in clination then was not to introduce the Bill, and that opinion survived until the passing of the English Act.
May I quote again the sentence which, I maintain, led to the belief that the Scottish Office were considering putting this legislation into operation earlier than now? The operative sentence is:
"The question whether legislation applying to Scotland on the lines of the Liabilities (War Time Adjustment) Act, 1941, should be undertaken is under consideration."
In the light of what goes before in the letter with regard to the Courts (Emergency Powers) Bill, this may be looked upon as a promise that there was a likelihood of something coming forward soon as a result of the consideration that had been given to the matter.
I would add only one sentence on that. I can assure the hon. Member that, throughout, my personal view was against bringing in a Bill; and I leave it to the House to determine, having heard the letter, whether they think any promise or even any indication that legislation would be introduced is contained in those words. There certainly was no intention on my part, nor on the part of the official who wrote the letter, to give any sort of promise or indication that legislation would follow.
4.45 p.m.
As far as I am concerned, Scotland can govern itself for ever, but I hope the Scots never govern us. I have come back from one week-end in Scotland, and I must say I found that there the laws were more barbarous in some respects than any laws which I expected to exist in these islands.
I think this speech is becoming out of Order. The hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot discuss that kind of thing within the scope of this Bill.
I bow to your Ruling, of course, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but if you will allow me to finish my sentence—and it is very rarely that I am allowed to finish my sentences in this House—you will see that my remarks are not merely wise, as usual, but relevant and orderly. My experience during this last week-end in Scotland was as follows. On Sunday the "pubs" were shut. [ Interruption. ] Am I making a speech or is the hon. Member—
The hon. and gallant Gentleman really must keep to the point. If he has something to say it must be on this Bill. I have told him that he must keep to the Bill.
I am endeavouring to address myself to the Clause in this Bill, which I gather concerns the difficulties of debtors in Scotland, and I was addressing my mind to such debtors as there may be in the licensed trade in Scotland. Suppose one of the debtors whom we are trying to relieve by this Bill is a publican—if such a loathsome expression is permitted in the virtuous country of Scotland. I hope I am not exceeding the rights and duties and decencies considered necessary in discussing Scottish affairs, but supposing a Scottish publican, if he does exist, is a debtor, and applies under Clause 1 of this Bill for an adjustment to be made in respect of his debts, I suggest, with profound humility, that I am entitled to submit that the evidence I have had during the last painful week-end is relevant to the discussion of this Bill—
We are having a painful afternoon.
—because the law of Scotland seems to be that on Sunday all the pubs are shut; on Monday there is a public holiday almost every week—
May I remind the hon. and gallant Member to direct his mind to the Bill? This is not a matter of discussing whether a public-house should be shut on Monday or on Tuesday. I hope he will not at this time make his speech so elaborate that it takes him right outside the Bill.
As you know, Sir, I am the last person to transgress one inch. I do ask you to contemplate the situation of a publican debtor who under Clause 1 is to make application for a settlement of his affairs on the ground that owing to war circumstances he is unable to pay his debts. Imagine that poor man unable to pay his debts. Why is he unable to pay his debts? Because not only on Sunday are the "pubs" shut, but on Monday there is a public holiday and they are again shut. Can you imagine a more impossible condition of things? Of course he is unable to pay his debts. The question before this House is whether we should give these unusual facilities for suspension—
I must remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman—
That is the third time, and the hon. and gallant Member must sit down. That is the law which has been laid down.
It is not a matter of how people get into debt. I must ask the hon. and gallant Member to keep to the Bill or end his speech.
With great respect, I am on the Bill. Under this Bill we ask this House of Parliament to give special facilities, suspensions and advantages to Scottish debtors, and I am suggesting to you, Sir, and to this House, that so long as certain conditions prevail in that country it is largely a question of whether we should grant those liberties; in other words, whether I am going to vote for the Second Reading of this Bill or not.
No. That is exactly where the hon. and gallant Gentleman, if I may so, is getting right out of Order. He has been out of Order nearly the whole time.
I am accustomed to being called to Order almost before I have opened my mouth. This is the Second Reading of a Bill, and surely on the Second Reading of a Bill one is entitled to mention all sorts of circumstances which go to the root of the matter.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman appears to be disputing my decision.
I am very near it, Sir.
I do not think the hon. and gallant Member can do that now. I have given my decision, that on the lines he has spoken he has been largely outside the scope of the Bill.
I must bow to your Ruling, Sir, although I am bound to say that, not for the first time, you seem to be unduly anxious to intervene and interrupt my speech.
Order.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman must withdraw that remark.
Hear, hear.
I withdraw that, Sir. In conclusion may I say, as I started by saying, that I would be delighted if Scotland would govern itself, presuming always that Scotland can pay for itself, which is very doubtful because if you cut off Scotland from these islands it is doubtful whether it would be a financial proposition. I quite agree with the sentiments of the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. McIntyre). I think there is a great case for Scottish Home Rule; but let them realise that they depend rather more than they seem to perceive, upon the financial support of this country, and let us have rather less nonsense—
May I be permitted to say that the hon. and gallant Gentleman is as erroneous about his financial facts as he has been out of Order in discussing this Bill? It is noticeable that he is making this a laughing-stock because it is a question of Scottish affairs.
Let us face facts. One fact is that it is extremely doubtful whether Scotland will be able to pay for herself, without the support of this miserable part of the Dominion. All this is really out of Order—
The hon. and gallant Gentleman now admits that he is out of Order. I think he might treat the House with more respect.
I am not accustomed to, nor have I the reputation for, not treating this House with respect. I must say again that I am surprised that you should administer to me that particular rebuke.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
Liabilities (War-Time Adjustment) (Scotland) [Money]
Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 69.
[Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS in the Chair.]
Resolved:
"That for the purposes of any act of the present Session to provide for the arrangement or the adjustment and settlement of the affairs of persons in Scotland financially affected by war circumstances it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as may be necessary to defray the remuneration and expenses and trustees to whom remits may be made by the Court under the said Act."( King's Recommendation signified. )—[ The Lord Advocate ].
Resolution, to be reported To-morrow.
Local Government (Boundary Commission) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
4.55 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This, I hope, will turn out to be, as I think it is, a good day to move the Second Reading of a reconstruction Measure, and the Bill is one which I submit to the House with confidence. It is, I think, true to say that the policy which it embodies has not only been fully and thoroughly discussed but has met with a broad measure of agreement in all quarters. In those circumstances it would be proper, considering the circumstances of the day, that I should not delay the House too long, particularly as if any detailed points arise on the Bill they will be dealt with by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Town and Country Planning, whose familiarity with all matters in connection with the work of county councils is well known to us all.
I may perhaps remind the House that the White Paper "Local Government in England and Wales during the Period of Reconstruction" was published on 3rd January and was debated on 15th February. In the course of that Debate, which was marked by notable speeches from hon. Members experienced in all forms of local government, the proposal that a Boundary Commission should be established was welcomed by speakers familiar not only with the work of the county councils and county boroughs but with the urban and rural districts. I was greatly encouraged, and towards the end of the Debate my hon. Friend the Member for South Tottenham (Mr. Messer), in a speech which I think all who heard it will remember, commented on the fact that commendation of the White Paper had come from representatives of all parties.
The immediate object of the proposals is to ensure that during the next few years there shall be a co-ordinated and comprehensive review of the circumstances of our local government areas outside the administrative county of London, for which a separate procedure was suggested and has already been set in motion, and at the same time to provide that the adjustment of areas and, where necessary, changes in the status of the authorities administering the areas should be effected by a more expeditious and less expensive procedure. I have referred to the next few years. It may be—but no one can prophesy—that the procedure may be so satisfactory as to last for many years. It is at any rate clear—and I need not emphasise the point—that this is a field of our governmental administration in which coordination is necessary, and is at present lacking. Different tribunals with different procedure deal with different aspects of the same problem. As things stand, the Parliamentary Committee, in examining a Bill, for example, for the creation of a new county borough, and the county council reviewing its county, are each dealing with part only of a problem which ought to be considered as a whole. The Boundary Commission which the Bill proposes will have authority to deal with the whole problem.
The House will have observed that the existing control by Parliament of major alterations—that is, adjustments between a county and a county borough or between neighbouring counties and county boroughs—will be preserved. No Order made by the Commission for effecting or refusing an alteration of that kind can take effect without submission to Parliament. I hope that the Bill, if it becomes law, will substantially reduce both the time occupied and the expense to which local authorities may be put under the law as it stands, whether they are making an application or feeling it their duty to resist an application by one of their neighbours. In the case of a Private Bill not only the details but the Preamble of the Bill have to be considered in Committee, maybe twice over, first in one House and then in the other.
I should perhaps comment on the point, which hon. Members will have noticed, that the Bill provides that a certain type of Order made by the Commission shall be provisional only, and it might be quite properly suggested that merely to substitute Provisional Order procedure for Private Bill procedure would not, in the case of an opposed Order, save either much time or much money; but with regard to that, I should call attention to the proposal in another Measure already introduced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Bill. Should that Bill reach the Statute Book it is contemplated that the Parliamentary control appropriate to the more important decisions of the Boundary Commission would be secured by means of that special procedure, which would effect, we believe, a considerable saving of time and expense.
Apart altogether from any change of Parliamentary procedure, the Boundary Commission would relieve local authorities, particularly the smaller local authorities, of much work at a time when they will be very busy and will have many most important decisions to make. It should also relieve them of expense. The existing machinery for dealing with county districts, wherever there is opposition and dispute, involves a double investigation, first by the county council and, secondly, by the Minister of Health as the confirming authority. Under the Bill, the Boundary Commission will take over the powers in this respect both of the county council and of the Minister, and, in those cases where Orders do not have to come to Parliament for confirmation, there would therefore be only one stage of inquiry. I gave a number of pledges in the course of the earlier Debate, and I ought perhaps to call attention, to the fact that I think those pledges are implemented in the drafting of the Bill.
May I give three examples? No decision involving an alteration of area or status which is opposed by any affected local authority will be made without a public local inquiry. That is secured by Clause 3 (9). Secondly, except in the case of the amalgamation of two boroughs, no alteration of area or status will involve the loss by any borough of its charter. In the third place, the Commission will be guided by general principles, to be prescribed by the Minister of Health and requiring approval by affirmative Resolution in each House.
Now I think I can pass to a few comments on the actual Clauses of the Bill. Clause 1 provides for the establishment of the Commission, and the first Schedule deals with its constitution and proceedings. It is thought that a full membership of five, with a quorum of three, will be appropriate. The Schedule provides for payment, either by salary or by fees and allowances, with Treasury approval. I contemplate that in the early years the chairman, and probably the deputy-chairman, would devote the great bulk of their time to the work, and that the remaining members could be on a part-time basis. It has been generally agreed, I think—it was certainly the view of the local government associations—that the members of the Commission should not be selected as representing particular local government interests or particular points of view. What we shall look for is a judicial outlook which will weigh with impartiality the interests of every type of local authority, from the largest to the smallest.
It is in this Clause that power is given for the prescription of general principles. In laying these down the Minister would, of course, have regard to the observations of the Royal Commission on Local Government, which reported 20 years ago. He would have regard to the accumulated experience of Parliament in dealing with Bills during those 20 years and also, of course, to the experience which has accumulated in the Department in dealing with Orders for county review to be made by county councils. I am sure that everyone would agree that the framing of these general principles and general directions is a matter on which consultation with the local government associations would be not only proper but necessary. The directions will come to Parliament, which will have the opportunity in that way of guilding the Commission and, in addition, certain other opportunities which I shall mention in a moment for keeping the work of the Commission under review.
Clause 2 is in very comprehensive terms. I hope that the language, which is in a measure repetitive, will not be subject to criticism. The powers reproduced are, in fact, those of the county councils and of Parliament under the existing law, with this exception—that the Commission will not deal with parish boundaries except where these fall to be dealt with consequentially as a result of other parts of an Order. Clause 3 contains the main provisions as to procedure. The Commission is given power to take into consideration—that means to hold an investigation into the circumstances of—any area of local government where they think it desirable. In addition to that, the Minister is empowered to require the Commission to look into the circumstances of any part of the country which he thinks should be examined. These provisions are valuable, because the working of the first county review was somewhat uneven in quality. In some counties the job was well done: in others there was considerable apathy. The Department is well aware of these cases, and this provision ensures that where there was such apathy there may be an early review. The Commission is also required to consider the position where application for a review is made by the council of the county or by an existing county borough. As I mention county boroughs, I am led to Sub-section (3), which imports a change in the law. The House will remember that in 1926 the minimum figure of population for a new county borough was raised to 75,000, and it became the law that no new county borough could be created except by Act of Parliament, as against the Provisional Order made by the Local Government Board of the old days. The Bill proposes that a county borough can be created by recourse to the Commission without the promotion of a separate Bill for the purpose, and it raises to 100,000 the figure of population needed before a borough council can demand that the Commission shall consider such an application. No dissent was expressed in the course of the Debate to that suggestion, which I believe is appropriate to the greatly increased functions of such authorities.
Is there any reference to rateable value in addition to the level of population?
No, not in the Bill. That may be a matter for the general directions and will be for consideration by the Commission in dealing with an application. What I want to indicate is that the fact that there is this minimum does not mean that any town with a population of 100,000 has the right to become a county borough. The Commission will have to consider the matter as a whole, subject to any other guiding principle which the House may decide, when any such application is submitted for approval.
The next point is that the Minister is empowered to direct the Commission as to the order in which it is to proceed with its work. It will be recalled that earnest representations were made on behalf of some of the blitzed areas that they should have priority. I should also mention that in the course of the present Session two Private Bills have been withdrawn, on the footing that the case of those promoting the Bills would be considered when the Commission is set up; and the Minister will be enabled by the Bill to consider what the proper priority should be. Another point is that, in Sub-sections (5) and (6), the Commission are required to embody the result of their consideration in an Order, whether that Order is positive or negative. The negative Order may surprise hon. Members at first glance, but it is necessary for two reasons—first, to provide an Order from which an appeal can be made, even if it appears to effect nothing, as that may well be a ground for complaint, and, in the second place, an Order, whether positive or negative, affords the starting point for the period of 10 years which has been brought into the Bill. Again I think there was no dissent from the view which I expressed at this Box that the principle of stability in regard to local government areas was of very great benefit.
At the end of Clause 4 there is a provision that, with regard to any Order going to Parliament, the Commission shall lay a statement summarising the proceedings and the considerations which have led them to make their Order. That, I think, will be of value to the House in considering such an Order. There will not merely be a formal Order, but a statement of all that has transpired in the course of the discussion of the case. And, in the same sphere, the sphere of the provisions which enable Parliament to guide and keep in touch with the work of this Commission, I regard Clause 5 as a most valuable provision, and I hope the House will agree—the provision that the Boundary Commission shall prepare and transmit to the Minister, for laying before Parliament, an annual report. I cannot help thinking that such annual reports from a body of the status of the proposed Commission will be of great value and of assistance to Parliament in considering local government affairs.
Thus it will be seen that Parliament has three different means for keeping under review the work of the Commission, the first being that they see the report of the proceedings which lead up to the major orders of the Commission; secondly, the general principles which shall guide the Commission, and indeed the main points with regard to their procedure, are to be submitted to the House before they become effective; and thirdly, this annual report, which I think will be of great value. The proposals in the Bill do not purport to effect radical changes in our local government system. I think that the view that this was not the moment for any attempt to do that commended itself to the vast majority of those concerned; but, having studied the question with much care and with a profound belief in the value of our local democratic system, having had great assistance from the local government associations, and having had the benefit of the Debate on the White Paper, to which I have referred, I believe that this Measure is one which will be of great value. I hope it may become law at an early date so that the processes it contemplates, in particular the framing of the necessary general directions, may be put in hand.
5.17 p.m.
My right hon. and learned Friend rather optimistically referred to this Measure as a reconstruction Measure. Of course he knows quite well that it is nothing more than a piece of machinery, which is intended to carry out what was proposed in the White Paper on local government. As a piece of machinery there is very little one can say about it. It is true that considerable powers are conferred on the Commission, but on what principles the Commission are to act, what guidance will be given to them, we do not at present know. It is quite true that it is intended that that guidance shall be laid before Parliament in due course, and an affirmative Resolution will be required. But it would have been very helpful if my right hon. and learned Friend had given us some idea as to what kind of guidance he was going to give, because in the absence of that we cannot really judge properly the value of this Measure. Perhaps some clue may be obtained from the White Paper which was before the House last February. In it, on page 9, it is stated that local government organisations must be capable of adaptation. been created 50 or 60 years ago to carry out an entirely different range of services, and under totally different conditions, were no longer applicable to modern conditions of life. For instance, at the time when the vast majority of the local authorities were created, they had no responsibility for secondary and technical education. They had a nominal responsibility for housing—very little indeed. Until the 1919 Act local authorities had built very few houses. They had no responsibility for the maintenance of hospitals, and certainly none for town and country planning.
All these vast and important services have been added to the local authorities' responsibilities since the time when they were first created. Yet we have practically the same machine, which was created for the purpose of the much lesser range of duties, required to carry out this vastly increased range of duties. Moreover, the conditions are entirely different. I know my hon. Friend may dispose of the motor car and the telephone, but they are important factors. In the days when one had to make one's way by means of horse-drawn traffic, and had not the use of the telephone, obviously there had to be much smaller authorities for the purpose of administration. But when one can cover large areas by means of modern forms of transport, and can use the telephone, together with a vastly increased range of services, the position with regard to the kind of units of administration which are applicable and suitable, becomes different. I should have hoped, therefore, that the measure of reconstruction which my right hon. and learned Friend purposed to introduce, would have been one of reorganisation, having regard to all the changed circumstances and conditions.
What is wrong with our present system of local government? Again I wish to emphasise that I am not one of those who say that everything is wrong—certainly everything is not wrong with London and with a great many other places. But it is a fact that there are many authorities which are too small, and authorities which possess resources too small to enable them properly to carry out the functions which are imposed upon them. In the case of six counties, the product of a penny rate is less than £1,000. In the case of 21 county boroughs, a penny rate produces less than £2,000. There are 126 non county boroughs where a penny rate produces less than £400, and in approximately half the urban districts of this country a penny rate yields less than £200. All these figures are very well known. In three-quarters of the urban districts a penny rate produces less than £400, and there are a substantial number of authorities, many of them housing authorities, responsible for the housing of the people of this country, where a penny rate produces less than £50.
These authorities, representing, I should say, something possibly of the order of one-third of the authorities of this country, cannot afford to employ skilled administrative and technical staff. Many of them employ part-time staff only. Others, of necessity, employ an inferior type of staff. After all, when the L.C.C. or the Manchester Corporation, or a Metropolitan corporation, want to engage a chief administrator they are able to offer figures of the order of £3,000 or £4,000 a year. How much can be offered by an authority a penny rate of which produces £400? On the basis I have quoted the salary of their chief officer alone would run away with a 7½d. rate, and, of course, that would only be the start. Therefore, they have, of necessity, to employ part-time staff or an inferior staff, and the public living in the area of such an authority of necessity get an inferior quality of service. There can be no doubt about that.
What about the benefits which a large authority is enabled to provide for its citizens? Last Session we devoted a great deal of time to an Education Act, under which it was the desire, on all sides, to move towards the giving of equal educational opportunity to our children in this country. We passed legislation to that end, but so long as there are these big variations in the resources of the different authorities, it is quite impossible for a child to get an equal opportunity in any part of the country. In London, Manchester, Birmingham, and other large towns, we can afford to send boys and girls to Oxford and Cambridge, or to other large universities, and to maintain them fully while they are there, and we are prepared to finance as many children as may be found capable of benefiting by such university education. But what is the position in some other places? I remember in one town with which I am familiar, a boy who had been sent to the university by the local authority was seen walking about, and the mayor was heard to say, "There goes a fourpenny rate." Obviously, not many boys can be sent to the university on that basis. Obviously, a child coming from an area of that sort has a lesser opportunity of the highest form of education than a child coming from a wealthier area.
Take the health services. Is not the position exactly the same? The large authorities can afford to provide the very best medical care and attention, they can afford to build and maintain the most up-to-date hospitals, etc., which lesser authorities cannot. Even if two authorities are combined, as this Bill contemplates, it will merely be combining two authorities each with a low rateable value, and will be merely combining poverty, instead of enabling a wealthier authority partly to finance a less wealthy one. Take housing. How can some of the authorities I have described be expected to carry out a large and speedy programme of house building? The Bill does not propose to transfer functions from one type of authority to another. If it did that, even if it proposed to transfer the functions of some of the minor authorities to the county council, if it gave the Commissioners power to transfer such functions, it might be of some value. But the Bill leaves these small authorities to struggle on as best they can, with the limited resources they have, plus, I admit, the block grant, which is of some value, but which, in fact, has not by reason of the de-rating operations resulted in the local authorities getting any higher percentage from the Exchequer than they had in 1927–28, before the days of the block grant. The proportion of the Exchequer grant is no higher than it was then.
What should be our objective? I say, first, that every local authority should be large enough, and have enough financial resources, to carry out these services efficiently, up to a prescribed minimum standard. It is for the different Ministries to lay down a minimum standard, upon which they must insist. If a local authority wants to do better than that it can do so, out of its own resources, in so far as its councillors and electors are willing. But, at least, we should be able to ensure for our population a certain minimum standard of services. This is all the more important in view of the large extensions of responsibility which have already been imposed on local authorities, and which will be imposed more and more with the progressive development of our services, to which we all look forward. Secondly, the authority dealing with youth and welfare services should not be remote and too large to deal with the persons who are being catered for. Personal contact is of the essence of democratic local government. Thirdly, an equal amount taken from the pockets of ratepayers in any area of local government should produce roughly an equal result. It is wrong that £1 raised out of my pocket as a ratepayer of Westminster should enable the people of Westminster to get 20 or 30 times as much benefit as £1 raised in Bethnal Green, or that £1 raised in Middlesex should enable the ratepayers there to benefit twice as much as the ratepayers of Lancashire would benefit from £1 raised out of their pockets. Why should the individual ratepayer suffer because he happens to reside in a poor area?
These are three main objectives of local government. There are many others, such as the quality of our councillors and officials, but I do not propose to go into them. I recognise that the objectives which I have put forward, and which I believe to be fundamental to local government, cannot be legislated for immediately. I accept the statement of my right hon. and learned Friend that we must not hold up important administration while we are reorganising local government. These urgent services are waiting to be developed at the earliest possible moment. But it is not sufficient to say, as the White Paper says, that there is no general desire in local government circles for the disruption of the present system. You would not expect to find in local government circles a desire for the disruption of the present system. They would be the last to see the defects of the system which they are administering, and to recognise the need for change. We all tend to think that the particular function we carry out is perfect, and that we can do no wrong. But there is a very strong feeling outside local government circles that the reorganisation of local government ought to be attended to without delay. A full inquiry into the whole administration of local government is needed, in which the views of others interested in local government, and not merely those of local government circles, should be obtained.
In the meantime, I agree that these large-scale activities must go on very much as they are. But I believe that our councillors and aldermen and our local government officials are sufficiently public-spirited to go ahead and render the best possible service, even though an inquiry into the whole administration may be pending. I do not believe, as my right hon. and learned Friend appears to believe, that if there were any threat, as he calls it, of a reorganisation, the quality of our services would suffer. I believe that these people are sufficiently public-spirited to go ahead, whatever may be the outcome of such an inquiry and what-ever may be recommended or adopted. They will realise that the purpose of such an inquiry would be merely to secure more efficient, widespread and humane administration of our local affairs. I hope that the door is not closed to an early inquiry into the administration and finances of local government in this country.
I want to make a few observations on the Bill, which I do not intend to oppose. I hope that the Minister will set up the Commission quickly, and be able to tell us very shortly the names of the members. If one Commission is to cover the whole country, and if some of its members are to be part-time, and a quorum is to be three, it will take a very long time to cover even the most urgent of the areas that call for inquiry. What is my right hon. and learned Friend's idea of a programme? How long does he think it will take this Commission to carry out their duties? I know that they will be in constant session, but there, are some priority calls on their time. Presumably, they will have to take financial considerations into account. In that case they must know the new Government proposals on Exchequer grants to local authorities. Without that knowledge, they would be working in the dark. Is it proposed to settle the new block grants very soon? My right hon. and learned Friend will agree that they cannot start without that knowledge. What salary does he propose to pay? That is very important, because we want the right type of person on this Commission: people who will command confidence, people of sound judgment, experience and character; and a good deal will depend on the kind of remuneration that is to be paid. I can only characterise this Bill as a poor, timid, inadequate Measure; but, such as it is, let it get its Second Reading without any more delay.
5.39 p.m.
I would like to give general support to this Bill. Its objects are to review the areas for the administration of the various duties. My hon. Friend has just said that he wanted standards of services. This Bill does nothing about services, and I cannot agree that we want standards. You cannot have standards when the areas vary so much, geographically and in other respects. You must have geographical areas.
My hon. Friend will not wish to misrepresent what I said. I said that minimum standards should be laid down, and that local authorities could do as much as they liked above that.
The words my hon. Friend used were "standards of service." But I am not going to debate that. I am in general agreement with the objects of the Bill. The Minister said that Clause 2 was in very comprehensive terms. I cannot see in it any power for a borough to be joined up with another area, and made into a county borough, rural or urban. In paragraph ( d ) there is a provision for making a borough into a county borough, but I cannot find, in all these classifications from ( a ) to ( g ), anything to enable a borough to be joined to another county district, either urban or rural I would like the Minister to say whether that is possible under the Bill.
5.41 p.m.
I desire to support this Bill. I hope it will be put into operation as soon as possible, and that we can have the names of the Commissioners very soon. A great deal will depend on the general principles laid down by the Minister for the guidance of the Commission, and I hope that he will be able to give some indication as to when it will be possible to lay down those principles. Obviously, the Commission cannot start its work before that part of the scheme is put through; and it looks as if that will take some considerable time. I would like some more precise information about priorities. There are local government bodies of all kinds which are really anxious to know when their turn is likely to come. I have in mind the neighbourhood of my own constituency in South Stafford shire. There we have local government bodies which might come together in various forms. One alternative is for an urban district council to join a county borough. Another is for two urban district councils to join together and take in part of the rural district council adjoining. Another is for perhaps four urban district councils to join together, and form a county or non-county borough. These matters are being much discussed among the councillors and residents in the neighbourhood. No definite policy has been decided upon. The Staffordshire County Council no doubt has strong views on these matters. Will these local bodies have to wait for the Commission to make recommendations? If they happen to be able to agree upon a scheme, can that be put into operation forthwith? I do not think they are likely to agree on a scheme, but I would like to know if it would be possible for them to proceed without delay if they did so. If the Minister could say something about this matter, it would go a long way towards satisfying the natural anxiety which is felt certainly among a number of local government bodies in South Staffordshire.
5.45 p.m.
Like other hon. Members, I welcome the introduction of this Bill, and I very much regret the speech we have just heard from the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin). Perhaps the fact that his area and the local authority with which he is associated are specifically excluded under the Bill led to his lack of sympathy, but I must protest against the mechanical view of local government which he put forward. It derives from a very common fallacy to-day—the fallacy which I always think of as being indicated by the slogan "The Bigger the Better"—that a cheap motorcar engine must be much better than a Rolls-Royce because it is made in a bigger factory. It is one of the biggest fallacies that exist, and it is particularly true that it is a fallacy in local government, because where do we find a more unsatisfactory spirit of local government than in London, where the vast majority of the people do not know the names of their representatives? Many of them who write to me do not even know where their town hall is or to whom they should apply when interested in any particular matter which concerns local government. In smaller areas we can show a much finer example of local democracy. There may be, as the hon. Member realised when he made his objection to remoteness in certain areas, places where you will get that horrible administration by motor-car and telephone of which he spoke. But, if you want democracy which preserves the world spirit of democracy, there must be reasonably small areas where the electorate can keep in touch with their representatives and where the administration can be moulded in a human way and not in the inhuman, mass-produced machine way.
I want to deal with one or two small points. I have an Amendment for the Committee stage later, but I will not discuss that because it deals with only a small class of case. I should like to emphasise the necessity for at least one of the Commissioners having a thorough knowledge of the work and the conditions of work of the small local authorities. By that I do not mean that the local authority associations should have representatives among the Commissioners. I am in entire agreement with my right hon. and learned Friend about that. We want these Commissioners to have a judicial outlook, but, however judicial their outlook is, they need to have the necessary knowledge, and it is very necessary for them to have thorough knowledge of the problems they have to face. Of course, I am not referring to finance. There, I agree with the hon. Member for Peckham; we must have complete readjustment, and it must come sooner rather than later. So far as the Boundary Commission is concerned, I do not think we need pay too much attention to it, because relatively small adjustments of boundaries cannot deal with the wide disparities in the amount of money raised by a penny rate. The Boundary Commission must deal mainly with other considerations, and the financial consideration must be dealt with by a large Government scheme which we have, in fact, been promised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Apart from that, I feel that we have here a Measure which will be widely welcomed by the local authorities, and I thank my right hon. and learned Friend, on behalf of the local authorities, for maintaining the excellent tradition which the Ministry of Health has for keeping in touch, with local authorities and local feeling, and, at all stages in the preparation of such a scheme, giving opportunities to those interested to make their views known to him. Therefore, I support the Second Reading of the Bill, because I think it is a very desirable and welcome Measure.
5.51 p.m.
I count myself fortunate to follow the hon. Member who has just spoken, for it gives me the opportunity of pointing out how little he understands the meaning of what was said by the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin). If the hon. Member for Peckham had been arguing for large units in local government merely for the purpose of having big units he would, obviously, have been attempting to submit a case which could easily have been destroyed; but he did not do that. What he did was to show that the social services have undergone changes which necessitate a type of administration capable of doing the work. Is it not true that in secondary education, we have a specialised type of education which simply cannot be run by a small authority? Can there be any services which can be divided up into specialities unless there is a sufficiently large proportion of the population to be able to deal with these special sections? My hon. Friend was not asking for a large unit which would be unrelated to the people, but, if I understood him aright, was suggesting a large unit but one not so large as to be remote from the people. If I might add to what the hon. Member for Peckham has said, I would say that we could delegate much of the work to smaller units within that large unit.
There is nobody who can say that there is no need for reform in local government. We have parish meetings, parish councils, rural district councils, urban district councils, municipal borough councils, county borough councils, county councils, metropolitan borough councils, joint electricity undertakings, joint water boards, joint isolation hospital boards—and "Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all." Is it not clear that there is need for revision of our local government? Incidentally, the Bill does make a beginning on a new machine, and it is to be welcomed for that reason. In the passage of years, what one might term the catchment area has changed. There are at present, in certain parts of the country, sections of the population which have no relation now to the geographical boundaries of a particular county or borough. Changes of population have falsified the arbitrary line which has divided the boundaries, and because of that, it is fairly clear that the time has arrived when we should change these boundaries. You will never change them unless you have a Boundary Commission not composed of people on the local authorities. If there is anybody who says, "Do not touch the local authorities," it is the local authorities. They are jealous of their powers and they do not want them to be changed.
Let us look at the services. At present we have this absurd position. A woman is going to have a baby. She will attend the maternity and child welfare clinic of the urban district council and get very good treatment and advice. When the time arrives for the baby to be born, the urban district council have no power to assure that woman a bed in a hospital. What they can do is to make arrangements for her to go into hospital; make arrangements with the county council or with another organisation, completely divorced from the local council. When the baby is born, the mother and the baby go back to the urban district and are treated by the maternity and child welfare clinic. When the child is old enough to go to school, the medical officer of health may not be the school medical officer, and the child comes under the school medical officer until he goes to work, when he comes under a general practitioner. There is no relation between the services of the urban district council and those of the larger authority.
I think my hon. Friend was right when he said that there ought to be an assurance of a minimum standard of services. I am bound to agree that, as a piece of machinery, the Minister of Health is doing the right thing by having a Boundary Commission. When it gets to work it will be compelled, by the force of circum stances and the facts that will confront it, to realise that changes which are necessitated cannot be undertaken at the present time because of the forces which prevent it. For instance, a county council has power to review boundaries within the county, but any county councillor will tell you what a sticky time they have when they are on the job, because the local councils do not want the changes. I think this is a first step, and I think that hon. Members on this side will welcome it as a first step in what they believe to be the necessity for ultimately reforming and remoulding local government in this country.
There is just one other point. There should be some reconsideration of powers. London, of course, is fortunate. In London, the county council is the housing authority and the Metropolitan boroughs are also housing authorities, so that they have concurrent powers, but, if we take another county council, such as Lancashire, we find that while they can build sanatoria and spend thousands of pounds on doing their utmost to build up the wasted figures of tuberculosis patients, they have no power to prevent those patients going back to the slums where they got that dread disease. Lancashire County Council cannot build a house, because it is not a housing authority. There are other powers which the Minister might properly consider to need revision, and I only mention housing as being one of the most important. There are a large number of people who are unfortunately affected by their environment, which is not fair to them, and I bring that aspect of the matter to the Minister's notice. I welcome the Bill because I think it is a first step that is bound to lead to something more, and that ultimately we shall get a tidier system of local government. I do not want to see services standardised. I want to see local colour and the characteristics of a locality embodied in the type of administration. We do not want this England of ours to be like blocks of wood. We want to be individuals. We want the personnel of a local authority moulded on the lines of the people, but provided we lay down a minimum service, below which nobody should go, we shall have done something which will be a contribution to the life of the people.
6 p.m.
I want to say only a few words in welcoming this Bill. We are in some confusion between boundaries and functions. The hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) gave us two objectives of local government which are not reconcilable. He said that it was desirable that areas should be so fixed that the resources were equal in different areas, and that presumably a penny rate would more or less bring in the same amount of money.
indicated dissent.
I took down very carefully what the hon. Member said.
The hon. Member should read it to-morrow.
The hon. Member went on to say—and with this I thoroughly agree—that personal contact between local government and people in the area was of paramount importance. If he were not so urban in his approach to the question, he would know that in rural areas we could not possibly reconcile those two objectives. We are bound to have poorer areas, and even if you take areas as large as counties some are likely to be much poorer than others. It is not the duty of this Commission to try to even out those differences in wealth per head. That is a national business which has to be settled by grants from the Treasury in one way or another.
The hon. Member is really developing an argument on something that I did not say. I did not say that I thought authorities ought to be equal in this business, but that they should have sufficient resources.
The words I took down were that the resources of each area should be large enough.
That they should have adequate resources.
If we were to try to even out the difference between poor and rich counties we would have to amalgamate several poorer counties together, and that would be a mistake. I hope that the guidance that my right hon. and learned Friend will give to the Commission will put special emphasis on the distribution of population in the areas and the need to find good councillors, men and women, to serve on the local authorities. If the areas are too big they will be run by the officials. There is one point of information I desire to ask. In Clause 3 it appears that a parish cannot ask the Commission to go into the question of its boundaries. There are some parishes which have grown very much in the last 10 or 15 years and are really dominating the rural district councils. They desire very much that their status should be looked into. I have one of these in my constituency, and that is the parish of Corsham, which for many years has tried to dissociate itself from the rural district council. All I ask is that when the priorities are being decided those parishes, which for many years have wanted to change their boundaries, should be allowed to have their case looked into. It is probable that under modern conditions the whole area should be treated on a larger scale and that several rural district councils should be amalgamated. But as things are at present it looks as though the swollen parish which may have grown to 10,000 or 20,000 people has no rights to initiate investigation into its case, and I hope that that will be gone into.
6.5 p.m.
The Bill we are discussing is drawn in general terms and is, rightly, receiving the approbation of the House. It is to deal with a very large problem and it leaves doubt in the minds of some of us whether the machinery suggested is really sufficient to deal with a problem of this size. I remember very well one of the occasions when we heard of the proposed Commission. It was during the discussion on the six blitzed cities, and it was particularly brought forward on the question of the reorganisation and redrawing of the boundary of Plymouth. I remember the pulse of the House on that occasion; it was tremendous. That was because the real thing was under discussion—where the line should be drawn between the city authority and a certain small authority. When it came to the point, everybody in the House was deeply interested in it. Now the House is thinning and the problems raised are not so active. I feel that when this Commission gets to work, the six blitzed cities alone will give it a very considerable task.
I rather share the view of the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Sir G. Mander) that we should like a little more information about Clause 3 (4): blitzed cities? I remember that when legislation was before the House it was estimated that it would cost £500,000,000 sterling, which in these days is a very considerable sum of money. The necessity of knowing who is to spend it, and where, is something which will press very urgently on a Commission like this. A Commission of five, with a whole-time Chairman, seems to be insufficient to put through this task, as a matter of war urgency, which it is. There should be a special Chairman for the six blitzed cities, but the Minister did not see his way to agree, because this general Commission was coming along. The applicants queuing up to get access to the Commission will be such as to appal even a fishmonger and I cannot in these days say anything more vehement than that.
We are discussing not merely things in the Bill but things which are not in the Bill. Points have been made which, I hope, the Minister will be able to turn over in his mind, as, for instance, the suggestion of a general inquiry into the rating arrangements of this country, which is really becoming more and more necessary. The weight of local taxation is going far to crush out of shape the units of local government altogether and particularly the smaller units of local government. I share with many other Members the desire to see the smaller units of local government retained. We have heard the views of the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin), from the pre-eminence of London, on such matters as education and public health. All I can say, as one who had to deal with some of the problems arising out of the system of education and public health of London, in connection with the evacuation scheme, is that I am sure that he will not get support in the areas to which those children went. Many of the smaller authorities said that if the education under their authority had fallen down so badly, and they had sent out children in the lamentable state of public health in which London children were sent out, they would have been impeached, and hanged on a gallows 40 or 50 feet high.
While not saying it in a party spirit, I would say that they did not feel any inferiority at all. They said, "We have been lectured for 20 years about remarkable feats in many fields of public life and all we can say is that we shall never listen to them with any degree of humility again." It filled them with the view that they had carried out a big work pretty well, and that the smaller communities had shown themselves to be useful, as they were able to bring in the personal touch, which is so valuable when dealing with services touching actual individuals. These are matters for the future, and not matters we can consider on the later stages of this Bill, but we certainly shall have to consider the priority question, and whether, in fact, the machinery here proposed is adequate. I ask the Minister who is to reply to throw some light on the priority question, and more particularly on how the blitzed cities stand in this connection.
6.12 p.m.
The first point made in the speech of my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) reinforced the plea made by one or more previous speakers: it is of the greatest importance that people of adequate ability shall be appointed to this Commission. I am not afraid of having a small body for it. What I am more afraid of is that those people whom I could describe as the stage army of potential members of government bodies or commissions might turn up here again. I hope that we can look with confidence to the Ministers concerned to make sure that that does not happen.
The real difference of opinion which has emerged in the Debate about the Bill has not lain between this side of the House and the other. It has really lain between the speech of the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) and the speech of the hon. Member for South Tottenham (Mr. Messer). The hon. Member for Peckham, to whose views on local government matters I usually listen with respect, went a long way out of his way to depreciate this Bill. He described it as poor and timid because it was no more than a matter of machinery. A General Election is no more than a matter of machinery, but may have far-reaching consequences. The hon. Member for South Tottenham, whose speeches on this great subject of local government are always listened to with attention in the House and will never bore it, as he feared, came much nearer the heart of the Bill when he said that it would make the beginning of a new machine. That, I suggest, is what we should concentrate upon. It is no use at this stage making airy speeches about all the vast reforms that the local government system needs. It needs vast reforms, but we have to begin somewhere, and we have to find a method of beginning which will enable us to go forward as quickly as possible. My hope of this Bill is that it will enable us to go forward, giving careful attention to the views of all those people who need to be heard and yet ensuring that the changes as they emerge will be workmanlike and well considered.
There is one point connected with the regulations to which I would refer. The House recognises, I fancy, that the Debate which will take place on the regulations is likely to be a more important one than this Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill. In the White Paper one of the points which appealed to me most was the insistence at the very beginning that local government depended largely on the quality of men and women, the quality of those who offer themselves for it, whether as councillors or as officers: other than the centre where the local authority of his area meets. It therefore becomes unnatural for people living in that spot to look to the meeting place of their own local authority as the centre of local affairs. On the contrary, they look elsewhere. Now if due weight is given to this, it may mean that a number of old-established boundaries should be set aside—I have in mind in particular the boundaries of counties—in order to make it practicable for people who desire to serve their area in a public capacity to visit as frequently as is required the spot where its local government business is carried on. I put in this additional plea in the hope that it may be fully realised that the shaping of local government areas is not merely a matter of finance and administrative convenience, but also a matter of assuring reasonable possibility for people to give public service.
6.20 p.m.
When I listened to the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) describing this Bill as a poor, timid and inadequate Measure, I could not help for the moment wondering whether he had given detailed attention to the provisions of Clause 2. When one sees the powers which are set out in that Clause, as being given to the Commission—they include, for example, the powers to unite one county with another, or to divide up counties between other counties—it is a little difficult to reconcile them with a description of the Bill as poor, timid, and inadequate. I felt that in spite of his protestations to the contrary, the hon. Member was really thinking of local government, as my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Colegate) said, in terms of the bigger the better. I missed from his speech what I was so glad to hear in the speech of the hon. Member for South Tottenham (Mr. Messer) that reference to local patriotism and local interest which seem to me to be so essential in our local government organisation.
I suppose there is no solution to this problem of local government really, in spite of indications one sometimes hears from the other side of the House that it is possible to devise a satisfactory local government machine. Surely that is for the reason that local government must be fixed according to geographical boundaries, whereas, more and more, it becomes necessary to think in terms of areas suitable for particular services, independent very often of geography. The education area, the hospital area and the water area may be and probably have to be in the great majority of cases, entirely different one from another, and the local government problem is not to find a complete solution, but to try to reconcile two irreconcilables—the functional distribution of our needs, and the geographical distribution of local government areas.
It seems to me that it is possible within the machinery provided by this Bill to get the best possible areas and then, by some system of delegation, both up and down, through the best possible local authorities, to get a working compromise for most purposes. For example, we are delegating power under the proposals for the National Health Service, and, under the Town and Country Planning Act of 1932, we are delegating down to divisional executives under the Education Act of last year. I think, broadly, with planning and finance, looked at over big areas, and administration delegated downwards to the smallest possible authorities, we might be able to make the best of both worlds.
On the actual content of the Bill itself, I think we all agree that the wide powers given to the Commission to come to conclusions ought to be welcomed and that only in very big areas, such as counties and county boroughs, should the House be consulted. The House has not the time, and the Commission will not do its work satisfactorily or attract the best people to serve on it, unless they feel that there is reasonable finality about the conclusions to which they come. We shall, of course, be faced with the problem of what is to happen if the counties and the county boroughs object successfully through this House to the proposals for reorganisation which the Commission may make. We can only assume that they will, as they get more experience of working jointly with other authorities, make working compromises which will not entirely stultify objections they may put up to the recommendations of the Commission.
I should like to congratulate the Minister on having brought this Bill forward. I certainly do not find in it any of the weaknesses which the hon. Member for Peckham suggested and I believe that it is a contribution to working out the new type of national plus local government organisation which will have to be a large part of the government of this country in the future.
6.25 p.m.
I want to say a few words of welcome to this Bill. I do not find it poor or timid as the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) seems to think it is. Rather to me it is a bold and sound legislative Measure. It deals, of course, mainly with areas and does not deal with functions—a feature which seems to me to have been overlooked by a certain number of hon. Members. I believe it to be a step in the right direction towards a comprehensive review of all the local government areas of the country. Hitherto it has not been possible at the same time to review the county boroughs, the county councils and the county districts; under this Bill such a comprehensive review will be possible.
I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend, when he comes to appoint this Commission, and when he comes to issue his regulations and directions, will give the Commission real responsibility. I hope he will appoint to it not only sound and good men, but strong men and bold men. I want to see an effective Commission and I hope he will give them that opportunity.
There is one omission from the Bill to which I hope my right hon. and learned Friend will give some attention between now and the Committee stage. Under Clause 3, as I read it, it appears to prohibit a county district from making an application to the Commission except through a county council. I feel that county districts, whether they be non-county boroughs or any other type of county district, should have the opportunity of making their representations and putting their views to the Commission irrespective of the county council, though after, of course, giving proper notice to the county council. Local government in this country has been a constantly developing and live machine. I believe that this Bill will assist the local government of Britain to go from strength to strength.
6.28 p.m.
There is no disagreement, I think, about the necessity for a Measure of this kind, in order to secure that there shall be a comprehensive view of local government areas in this country. Very much will depend, of course, upon the directions which the Minister issues for the guidance of the Commission. I do not know what is in his mind with regard to that, but it will make a very great deal of difference whether he indicates a comparatively large population as being a desirable basis for a local government unit or if, on the other hand, he may be inclined to countenance some of the very small units which exist at present. There appears to be a certain bias in the Bill as drafted in favour of the preservation of a number of units of local government which are of an extremely small size—municipal boroughs, non-county boroughs, with a few thousands of population—which it really can not honestly be said are adapted to the needs of modern local government. They have not the population, nor have they the financial resources to enable them to discharge efficiently the duties which are imposed upon them. But it seems to be evident from the way in which the Bill is framed that there is a bias towards the preservation of those authorities. The only way in which they can be increased in size, apparently, is by the addition of a county district. That, obviously, is not the only solution of this problem. In the same way, there is bias in the Bill to wards the preservation of county boroughs. Here I shall be treading, no doubt, on very delicate ground, but there is a great deal to be said for the argument that what is called the "two tier system" of local government has many advantages.
In the division of functions between the county and county districts the county, covering the larger area, is able to deal with problems with which the county districts are not able to deal, but, on the other hand, the county districts have the advantage of being smaller, and the members of the council or county district are in closer touch with their inhabitants. Conversely, it is easier to find people who are able to serve on bodies of that kind which do not make the same demands on time, travelling, and so on, as does membership of the larger bodies. It may be argued that it was an unfortunate development in the evolution of our system of local government that county boroughs were introduced at all. That is a problem which is deserving of consideration, but I think it can be agreed, at any rate, that the county borough system of local government—that is, the one purpose authority—although it may function in densely populated areas, cannot function efficiently in the sparsely populated areas. In those areas you must have the two tier system of local government, and if that is so, then that system is seriously impaired by the existence of county boroughs, and by the withdrawal from other areas of large amounts of rateable value.
This problem of local government has many facets; many considerations have to be reconciled in order to try to obtain, in any particular district, the optimum size of local authority for efficient administration. It cannot be measured entirely in terms of area, population, rateable value, or any other factor. These con siderations are, in many cases, antagonistic. It must be perfectly clear to Members that this Bill in itself, however valuable it may be, is far from affording a solution of the whole problem. The question of local government finance must be dealt with. A very severe blow was dealt at the efficiency of local government in many areas when, in 1929, the system of derating was introduced, particularly in rural districts, which were deprived of a large amount of their rateable value. The results of the block grant, especially as the years have gone by, and it has ceased to be a deficiency grant to compensate for loss of rateable value, and has become a grant distributed according to a very complicated formula, the use fulness and validity of which have come under criticism as time goes by, have rendered the position of many of the rural districts extremely precarious. It has placed them in the growing dilemma of curtailing their services or, on the other hand, of increasing their rates to a figure which they consider excessively, burden some on their inhabitants.
Similar problems have arisen in certain densely populated industrial districts, which have lost vast amounts of rateable value owing to the derating of railways, industrial hereditaments, docks, and the like. This whole problem of the basis of local rates, and the system upon which grants in aid are distributed, will have to be taken in hand before a satisfactory adjustment of local government functions and boundaries can be arrived at. So, I hope the Minister will not weary of well-doing, but will turn his hand to the wider aspects of this problem, and try to get our structure of local government on to the most efficient and workmanlike basis.
6.37 p.m.
I am sorry to intervene at this late stage in the Debate, but I would like to say that I welcome this Bill and I wish to make one or two observations upon it. While I appreciate that it does not deal with the wider function of local government problems, which will have to stand over, I recognise that it will help considerably, if it is carried out in the right manner and in the right spirit, to bring about necessary readjustments of local government boundaries in order to make local government an even more efficient instrument than it is to-day. Local government has served the country well during the past six years. The contribution it has made in connection with Civil Defence and other matters will be to the outstanding and everlasting credit of local government. As one who has just witnessed the scenes of enthusiasm in the East End, and as one who has been in close touch with local government, I feel sure that we can congratulate ourselves on the service which local government officers and local government generally has given to the State.
This Bill suggests that when the Boundary Commissioners get to work they may make considerable alterations in local government areas and authorities. For example, it may merge two county boroughs. In our previous legislation dealing with the adjustment of local government authorities and so on, there has always been provision for officers and servants engaged in the undertaking, but here I do not see, either by reference or in any other way, that such people are covered in the event of their being displaced by the operations of this Bill. I agree that it is necessary, probably, in the cause of progress for this adjustment to take place, but the principle of compensation is a well-established one, and I ask the Minister if he will give his attention to this important question.
6.40 p.m.
I think my right hon. and learned Friend has every reason to be entirely satisfied with this Debate, and with the Debate that took place on the White Paper from which this Bill arises. I think it can be said that, almost without exception, every Member has supported the Measure, although my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) said that it did not go quite far enough and wanted a comprehensive inquiry into local government with a view to removing all the difficulties which obtain among local authorities at the pre sent time. I want to reply as briefly as I can to this Debate, because I do not feel that the House would desire to spend a great deal of time on this Bill.
My hon. Friend the Member for Peckham referred to the number of small authorities which exist to-day. There are five counties with a population of less than 50,000. There are nine counties with a population of about 100,000, and in none of those areas will a penny rate produce much more than £1,000. There are 83 county boroughs, 39 of which have a population of less than 100,000; and there are 309 non-county boroughs, of which 86 have a population of less than 10,000 and in 126 of which a penny rate produces about £400. There are 38 urban districts with a population of about 2,500, and 283 urban authorities with a population of less than 10,000. In 277 of them a penny rate produces not more than £200. Those facts show the need for examination of those areas, and it is important that the machinery for dealing with that situation should be as speedy, efficient and inexpensive as possible. That is of vital importance. The Commissioners, when they are appointed, will, obviously, give due weight to all factors involved, including many points which have been raised to-day, such as community of interest and rateable value. A good deal of help has already been given by stepping up grants from the Treasury to needful areas. That was seen in the Education Act, under which about £2,000,000 is to be used for that purpose. A great deal is done by way of the block grant, referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham. We are all conscious of the shortcomings of our rating system, but none of us yet has been able to produce any satisfactory alternative—
What was that?
I should have said that none of us has been able to produce a satisfactory alternative and convince others that it was an improved method. I think it is true to say that the block grant, together with the additional grants we get under the Education Act, do, to some ex tent, take off the sharp edges which existed previously. I believe that much more will have to be done in that respect, but that is not really a matter connected with this Bill. What we are concerned about to-day is improving the boundaries of local government areas. As is usual in all these local government Debates, the Debate to-day has reached a high standard, as did that on the White Paper, when I did my best to take part in it, but I was not successful in catching Mr. Speaker's eye. I was very much attracted by the point of view put forward by the hon. Member for South Tottenham (Mr. Messer). He talked about the human work of local government, and distinguished what he called the mechanistic side of local government from the human side. He did this effectively, as he always does. We have to consider the human side of local government work and see whether we can devise for it areas that will work rather better than some of the present areas. I was told the other day, for example, that Middlesex has a hospital in Hertford shire. The hospital is situated in Hertfordshire, but nobody in Hertfordshire has a right to go into it; the people living in that neighbourhood have to be taken as far as Watford to get into a hospital. Some re-arrangement in regard to things of that sort will have to take place. The boundaries that exist in local government were formed, most of them, a long time ago for reasons which we now judge, on modern standards, not to be adequate. In my own county the boundary between Glamorgan and Monmouthshire is fixed along a river at the bottom of the Rhymney Valley. When it was fixed, many years ago, there was no population in that valley, but since then a great population has grown up, about 60,000 or 70,000 people, with townships built on either side of the river. On one side of the river the Monmouthshire county council administers the services, and on the other side the Glamorgan county council administers them. Obviously, there is a substantial reason there for adjusting that boundary in order to make one authority responsible for the whole of the services. There are numerous cases of that sort, in which clearly something ought to be done.
How best can we change these boundaries? The hon. Member for South Tottenham said that the right thing to do would be not to allow the determination of boundaries to be settled by members of local government bodies. There is a good deal of truth in that; but that is not the whole truth, because we have a very urgent demand from the local government associations that some steps be taken, such as the setting up of Commissioners, to deal with boundaries. There are many public-spirited people sitting on local government bodies. I think I can say, in fairness to them, that it was they who first put forward the suggestion, some two years ago, to the Ministry of Health that steps should be taken to deal with this matter. We have made some progress. I think the local government people are entitled to take a good deal of credit to themselves for the services they have rendered. The Prime Minister, in one of those lively phrases of which he is such a master, said yesterday that the House of Commons had preserved the title deeds of democracy. Local government, too, has rendered great service. Local government is, to a large extent, the foundation of our democracy, and I want to preserve it. I want, if I can, to preserve the term "local" in local government. That is all-important, and I will go a very long way to do it. I believe it would be possible, by setting more modern boundaries to their areas, to put local government bodies in a much better position to carry on their work efficiently; but at the same time I contend very strongly that a large number of the local government bodies that are big enough and strong enough financially to carry out their functions have done magnificent work. But there is room for improvement with the others.
I want to refer briefly to some of the points that have been raised in the Debate. The hon. Member for Peckham complained at the end of his speech that the Bill was a poor, timid and inadequate thing. At the beginning of his speech he referred to it as a piece of machinery. That is exactly what it is. I would not regard it as a poor, timid and inadequate Bill; I would regard it as establishing a piece of machinery that should result in very great benefit to local government. It was never intended that the Bill should involve a comprehensive review of local government services in the sense that the hon. Member suggested. It merely sets up machinery for the purpose of dealing rapidly, efficiently and as inexpensively as possible with boundaries that ought to be adjusted and, sometimes, adjusted urgently. The hon. Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) asked whether there was power in the Bill to destroy a borough. The answer is "No."
I did not say "destroy." I asked whether there was power to add a borough to a county area.
That might be done in the sense of an amalgamation of a borough with a neighbouring county area. The hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Sir G. Mander) asked when will the Commission begin. It will begin as soon as it is possible to get the Bill through the House. There ought not to be delay.
Would it be necessary for local authorities who can agree among themselves to wait for the Commission?
There is no reason why local authorities should wait. If they can get an agreed scheme of adjustment in the case, for example, of three or four urban authorities, there is no reason why they should not get it ready and submit it to the Commission as soon as it is appointed. It would best be discussed with the Ministry of Health and there would, of course, have to be an Order but there is every reason for local government bodies who are anxious to effect amalgamations to proceed with consideration of the subject as soon as they can.
Is it not a fact that if there were two bodies that wanted to join together, the county council, which at the moment possesses power to review the boundaries, can already bring about the fusion?
That could be done prior to the Bill being placed on the Statute Book. Afterwards it would not be possible. The hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Colegate) asked that at least one member of the Commission should have a knowledge of rural authorities. I think the Minister can very well be trusted to appoint people to the Commission who will have full and complete knowledge of both large and small authorities. I think it would be wrong to enter caveats at the present time about the appointment of particular people representing particular points of view. A point was raised by the hon. Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Burden) with regard to the compensation of officers who may be displaced. They would be dealt with under Section 150 of the Local Government Act, 1933.
Will a Clause be put into this Bill to cover that?
Section 150 is applied by Clause 4 of this Bill, so that the position is fully met.
I raised a point, to which I attach importance, about priority and, more particularly, the position of blitzed cities with regard to priority.
That is a matter that will have to be decided by the Minister immediately the Bill is placed, upon the Statute Book.
Is it not possible to give an indication now or at a later stage of the principles on which the Minister is going to act?
It is impossible to say at this stage what priority will be given, but clearly the blitzed cities will have a very great claim to priority. It is, however, a subject on which I can give no undertaking at this stage. It is a matter for the consideration of the Minister when the Bill gets on to the Statute Book.
I think the Debate has been a very useful one and I think we can congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on bringing the Bill forward; for I have no doubt that it will be a very great help to local authorities by effecting consider able improvement in the adjustment of local government boundaries and so be a great advantage to local government generally. We ought not, as I have said, to regard the Bill as attempting a wide review of local government. Its purpose is to establish machinery by which we can remove much of the bad feeling that exists between one local authority and another because of an impression that one is trying to take the other's territory. That impression gives rise to a considerable amount of feeling. What I want to stress to-night is that there is every reason for local authorities of every type to be on the very best of terms together. There ought not to be annexation of one local authority's territory by another unless there is a substantial local government reason for it. That is fundamental. If all local authorities were actuated by the one idea of better local government, it seems to me that there would be better relation ships created. The Commissioners will do much in that respect. I think they will go a very long way to help local government bodies to arrive at the right conclusion with regard to boundaries. There fore I ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
Local Government (Boundary Commission) [Money]
Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 69.
[Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS in the Chair]
Resolved:
"That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the establishment of a Local Government Boundary Commission and for other purposes, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the expenses of the Commission established under the said Act and the salaries, fees and allowances of the members of the Commission and the secretary, officers and servants of the Commission."—( King's Recommendation signified. )—[ Mr. Willink. ]
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
Adjournment
Resolved: "That this House do now adjourn."—( Mr. Buchan-Hepburn. )
Adjourned accordingly at One Minute to Seven o'Clock.