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Commons Chamber

Volume 410: debated on Wednesday 16 May 1945

House of Commons

Wednesday, May 16, 1945

The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]

Death of a Member

I regret to have to inform the House of the death of Joseph Hep-worth, Esquire, Borough of Bradford (East Division), and I desire on behalf of the House to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the honourable Member.

Oral Answers to Questions

Russia (Sentence on British Sailor)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received any reply from the Soviet Government regarding the sentence of one year's imprisonment with hard labour, imposed upon a Scottish sailor, John Connor, for the offence of drunkenness and disorderly conduct; and whether he has been able to obtain any reduction of this sentence in view of the fact that this man had made four voyages in convoys to the U.S.S.R.

I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to my hon. and gallant Friend about this case on 19th April, but further representations are being made to the Soviet Government with a view to securing some remission of the sentence.

Surely, it is possible to get a reply from the Soviet Government? Have we not got a diplomatic representative in Moscow? Cannot we get a reply, as this boy has served three months of the sentence already?

Every endeavour has been made to obtain a reply, but, so far, no reply has been received.

British Consular Appointments (German Nationals)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent before the war we utilised the services of Germans to represent us in a consular capacity; and whether he will give an assurance that this will not be done in future.

Before the war, only two German nationals held British consular appointments, both in Germany, namely at Kiel and Lũbeck—honorary posts for which no suitable British residents were available. As my hon. Friend was informed when he asked a similar question in April, 1943, all members of His Majesty's Foreign Service, in which the former Consular Service is now incorporated, are British subjects by birth. Honorary posts, such as those I have mentioned, are, and will continue to be, filled wherever possible by British subjects.

War Crime Trials (Italians)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the trials of Italians accused of committing acts of cruelty against Allied personnel will begin; and what will be the composition of the court.

No date has yet been fixed for the initiation of these trials and the composition of the courts is still under consideration.

When will any information be available, because Italy has been out of the war for quite a long time?

No, only a part of Italy. The major portion of Italy has only recently been released.

Why is the right hon. Gentleman always so lenient with Italians? I do not quite understand it.

British Council (Report)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on what date copies of the Findlater Stewart Report were made available to members of the governing body of the British Council.

Sir Findlater Stewart's Report is still under consideration in the Foreign Office and Treasury, and has not yet been shown to members of the British Council's Executive Committee.

Is it not rather odd that a Report, which was published or issued privately three months ago, should not be shown to the governing body, which consists of eight Members of Parliament and a number of very distinguished people? Is it not a new method of procedure? Will the right hon. Gentleman explain it?

The Report is a confidential document submitted to the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I can, however, assure my hon. Friend that such proposals as His Majesty's Government may have to make upon the reorganisation of the Council in the light of the Report, will be discussed with the governing body.

In view of the fact that this House finds a very large sum of public money for spending by this Council, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when the House will be given an opportunity of discussing this Report, and, if he is not in a position to publish the whole of it, will he publish a portion of the Report?

Yes, Sir. An announcement has been made to that effect. A full statement will be made about this Report and an opportunity provided for debating it.

In view of the importance of the work of the British Council, does the right hon. Gentleman realise that they are at present in the air and do not know where they are? Is he aware that nobody seems to know what the future of the British Council is to be?

In view of the fact that I have received no answer to my main Question, which was why the governing body had not received the Report, I must take an opportunity of raising this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment.

Syria and Lebanon (Troops)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has considered representations from the Syrian and Lebanese Governments that, with the termination of hostilities against Germany, no United Nations troops should be sent to Syria or the Lebanon without the prior consent of the Governments; and whether, as they have made it clear that they are prepared to offer all facilities in their power to the prosecution of the war against Japan, this request will be complied with.

I understand that proposals on these lines have been made by the Syrian and Lebanese Governments to the representatives of the French, United States, Soviet and British Governments. His Majesty's Government, for their part, will be prepared to study these proposals sympathetically, but the detailed text of the communication has not yet been received in London.

As the British Commander-in-Chief is, I understand, responsible for this territory, is it not a matter in the first case for the British Government?

I would like my hon. and gallant Friend to put that Question on the Paper.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that a French man-of-war with Senegalese troops on board has arrived in Beirut and that further ships with more Senegalese troops are expected; and what information or representations he has received from the Syrian and Lebanese Governments on the subject.

One French cruiser has landed a battalion of Senegalese troops at Beirut. I understand that the same ship took off a number of troops from the Levant. Further French troops, not Senegalese, are understood to be due shortly in the Levant. The Syrian and Lebanese Governments have made representations to His Majesty's Government, as well as to the French Government, on this subject, and I understand that they are now engaged in direct discussion with the French Delegate-General at Beirut.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these troops were supposed to be replacements? Did an equal number of troops leave the country?

I have no exact information upon this point, but I understand that a number, slightly smaller than those which were taken into the country, were taken off.

Are we to understand that, in fact, Syria and the Lebanon are to be occupied by Senegalese troops?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether His Majesty's Government propose to reply to the representations received from the Lebanon; and, if such reply is made, will it take cognisance of the fact that the British Government represent one of the guarantor Powers of Syrian and Lebanese independence?

To know what the communication is. His Majesty's Government have promised that they will sympathetically consider the communication.

German-Jewish Refugees (Repatriation)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to repatriating Jewish refugees from Germany and in regard to Jews in Germany.

As regards the first part of the Question, it is still too early for me to be able to make any statement. As regards the second part, it is the policy of His Majesty's Government that all discrimination hitherto applied in Germany, on grounds of race, religion or political belief, should be abolished.

Will the Government guarantee that no country which has discriminated against a minority, will be the country to which that minority is returned, or by which it is kept?

Germany and Austria (Occupation Zones)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state the occupation zones in Germany and Austria and their capitals.

No, Sir. Some aspects of the matter are still under consideration by the Allied Governments concerned.

May I ask my right hon. Friend, in view of the fact that these zones of demarcation could easily have been settled a year ago, how it is, now that occupation is starting, that the matter is still unsettled? Is it not leading to considerable confusion?

Hostilities have only just come to an end. The troops are still, necessarily, in their operational positions and cannot take up the zones which have been allotted to them.

Is it not a fact that the zones have been definitely allocated and drawn up?

I think the reply to that point was given in the answer to a Question about a fortnight ago.

Is it not a fact that these zones were demarcated some considerable time ago, that the actual physical occupation of the country does not coincide with those zones, and that no adjustments to make them coincide have been made?

Dodecanese Islands (Sovereignty)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any decision has yet been reached regarding the future of the Dodecanese Islands.

No, Sir. His Majesty's Government realise the strength of Greek feeling about the Dodecanese, but they regard it as essential that changes in the sovereignty over the islands, like any other territorial transfers, should not be decided in advance of the Peace Settlement.

While everyone will agree with the last sentiments expressed by the right hon. Gentleman, can he give any explanation of the recent visit of the Greek Archbishop to the Dodecanese Islands, where, according to Press reports, he planted a Greek flag? Also, according to Press reports, his visit had the blessing of the British representative in Athens.

The Greek Regent asked permission to pay a short visit to Rhodes, to convey the greeting of the Greek people to the Greek inhabitants of the Dodecanese. His Majesty's Government granted this request. It in no way infringes the principle that the future status of the islands must be held over for later settlement.

May we take it that the report that the Archbishop planted the Greek flag in certain or some of those islands is incorrect?

Wounded Canadian Soldiers (Excursion Expenses)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that wounded Canadian soldiers, recently visiting Maldon, Essex, in a conducted party, were required by the organisers of their tour to pay 10d. per head for tea at a Y.M.C.A. canteen, although such payment was refused by the voluntary workers in charge of the canteen; and if he will instruct the commandants of military hospitals that they should not authorise such excursions unless they are satisfied that the organisers of them are in a position to provide free refreshments, if needed, and that wounded Servicemen will not be involved, at least without previous notice, in such expenditure.

The party in question was organised by the British Council, who arrange many excursions for Dominion, Colonial, Indian and Allied European and American troops from hospitals and other units. Wherever possible tea is provided free on these excursions by the owners of the catering establishments or houses visited, but when this cannot be arranged, the men are asked to pay for their own teas. The British Council organiser gives advance information to the liaison officer of the unit concerned about what is involved in any excursion, including expenses of any kind. The hospital from which these particular men came was not a British Military Hospital. I understand that it is the general practice for men to be warned, and if necessary given an advance of pay, before an excursion which is likely to involve them in expense. Sometimes the charges are met from funds at the disposal of the medical unit, but such funds do not exist everywhere.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it could have been arranged in this case—as he says it is so arranged where possible—and that the canteen workers, who are voluntary workers, are indignant that wounded soldiers should be mulcted in this rather mean way?

Is it not the fact that the Canadians are a very generous people and would not mind paying 2d. for tea and would not consider that they had been mulcted?

Is it not the last word in meanness that wounded men taken for a trip should be asked to pay for their own tea?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman why he is answering this Question and whether this is one of the usual activities of the British Council?

Yes, Sir, it is. The British Council arrange quite a number of these tours and they have done a lot of useful work.

Allied Control Commission (Conscientious Objectors)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what decision has been taken by His Majesty's Government with regard to the employment of conscientious objectors in the Allied Control Commission in occupied enemy territory.

I can assure my hon. Friend that it is not the intention to employ persons registered as conscientious objectors on the British staffs of Allied Control Commissions in enemy countries.

Would my right hon. Friend go further and make it mandatory on all Departments who have to supply British subjects to the Allied Control Commission, that they shall not engage conscientious objectors for this purpose?

I think the reply covers all the persons who will be employed by the Allied Control Commission.

Royal Air Force

Operations Against Germans (Petrol Consumption)

asked the Secretary of State for Air what was the average daily expenditure of petrol by the R.A.F. in offensive operations during the last year of the war against Germany.

During the last 12 months the Royal Air Force has used approximately 1,250,000 gallons of aviation fuel a day on operations in the war against Germany.

Can my right hon. Friend say how soon he expects that a small portion of this amount of petrol will be available for private supply?

Airfields (Retention)

asked the Secretary of State for Air how soon he expects to be able to notify local authorities, farmers and others concerned which of the many airfields constructed during the war are to be retained permanently for military or civil aviation.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave him on this subject on 28th February last, to which I have nothing at present to add.

Since the war in Europe is now over, will it not be possible soon for the right hon. Gentleman to add something to that reply? It is very difficult for planning authorities and others.

It is impossible for me to add anything, as I explained in that answer, until large decisions of policy embracing all three Services have been made.

Will priority be given to land in the neighbourhood of large towns of this country to enable local authorities to prepare their plans for the establishment of civil airports?

Priority must be given to the decisions on policy, and until we have those decisions on policy we cannot tell which airfields will be available.

Transfers to Army

asked the Secretary of State for Air if, before men are transferred from the R.A.F. to the Army, he will give an assurance that they will not suffer in rank or pay; that their special trade experience will not be wasted; and that there will be no risk that their demobilisation may be delayed as a result of the transfer.

As the reply with regard to rank and pay and to release is rather long I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The use of skilled men in the Army is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, to whose reply of 1st May on this subject I would refer the hon. Member.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there is a good deal of apprehension about this matter in the Royal Air Force, and can he give, broadly speaking, an assurance in reply to the last part of the Question?

May I ask the Minister whether it is proposed to continue these transfers now that the war in Europe is over?

Those transfers which have been approved and planned will, of course, go forward. As regards the last part of the Question, the answer is, "No, Sir." There is no reason to suppose that their release may be delayed, subject to this, that from time to time the rate of release in the different Services may vary according to the requirements of the military situation. But it is just as possible that their release would be accelerated as that it would be delayed.

The reply is as follows:

Rank. —Airmen other than N.C.Os., are enlisted in the rank of private and the question of rank on transfer does not arise, although Air Force service counts towards classification as Private Class 1A. N.C.Os. are promoted, initially, to unpaid acting rank equivalent to the R.A.F. rank (other than acting rank) held immediately prior to enlistment in the Army, but this is converted retrospectively to paid acting rank after it has been held for 21 days. Subsequent conversion to war substantive rank follows Army rules.

Pay. —Substantive pay including good conduct badge pay of the airman is safeguarded on transfer, but does not apply to non-substantive pay which, under normal R.A.F. rules, remains in issue only so long as the airman is filling a post to which this extra emolument is appropriate. Extra pay for special duties would equally be lost if the airman were posted to other duties in the R.A.F.

Skilled men in trade groups other than Group V retain their R.A.F. rate for a period of 12 months, in order that they may have a fair chance of qualifying for an equally favourable rate under Army conditions. Thereafter their pay is in accordance with their Army status and duties subject to the proviso that they will not in any case receive a rate of pay less than that in issue to R.A.F. airmen, Group V, of the rank or classification which they held immediately prior to transfer.

Air Force service is reckonable in the Army for increments of pay and reclassification in the rank of private. Paid non-commissioned service in the Air Force in an equivalent or higher rank counts towards qualifying for war substantive rank in the Army, and for the increment granted to sergeants after three years in that rank. Air Force service during the present war will also be reckonable for war service increments.

Release. —Men in the earlier release groups are not eligible for transfer; R.A.F. service will count for release purposes, and as the rules for calculating age and service group numbers are the same for both Services, a man's group number will not be affected by transfer.

Mass Victory Flights

asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will arrange for a mass flight of British aircraft to take place at an early date over London and other great cities without detriment to the continuing responsibilities of the R.A.F.

I will bear my hon. Friend's proposal in mind, but in the meantime the Royal Air Force has heavy commitments.

Would my right hon. Friend tell the House why it is necessary that this honour should only be enjoyed by one of our principal Allies?

I am not aware that any of our Allies have flown over London, but in the meantime, as I say, the Royal Air Force has very important things to do, including the bringing of prisoners back from the Continent of Europe.

When and if this display takes place, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that it will not be at midnight or after midnight?

Questions

Bomb Attacks on Germany

asked the Secreretary of State for Air what is the total weight of bombs dropped by the R.A.F. and the American Air Force, respectively, on Germany and German occupied territory year by year since the war began.

As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

In view of the part that Bomber Command played in the final victory, will the right hon. Gentleman see that adequate publicity is given to the work that they have done in the last five years?

I am most anxious that adequate publicity should be given. We have done a good deal with that object in view in the past, and certainly we are contemplating giving full information to the public later.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see to it that, in doing so, he does not attempt to settle the great controversy of whether the war was won by bombing or by His Majesty's Army?

The reply is as follows:

R.A.F. (Bomber Command and R.A.F. element of the Allied Air Force in Italy): (Bomber Command and R.A.F. element of the Allied Air Force in Italy):

Tons

1940

13,000

1941

32,000

1942

45,500

1943

157,500

1944

547,000

1945

191,000

986,000

United States Army Air Force (VIII Air Force based in England, and XV Air Force based in Italy): (VIII Air Force based in England, and XV Air Force based in Italy):

Tons

1940

1941

1942

1,500

1943

48,500

1944

578,500

1945

263,000

891,500

The above figures are in long tons. They do not include the weight of bombs dropped by the Tactical Air Forces.

Ministry of Information

B.B.C. Staffs (Scotland)

asked the Minister of Information how many employees of the B.B.C, technical and non-technical, are employed in Scotland and how many in England.

The number of the B.B.C.'s staff in Scotland is 386. 208 of these are engineering staff. The total number employed in England is 10,607, of which 3,170 are engineering staff. These figures for England include the staffs employed on all the overseas services of the B.B.C.

Can the Minister tell us when an equitable proportion of employment and activity will take place in Scotland, so that a reasonable restoration of revenue can be had there in order that this Parliament's discriminatory taxation will cease?

My hon. Friend must recognise that, long before he came here, Members for all Scottish divisions have been pressing for an increase in Scottish regional organisation, and the minute that the war in Japan is liquidated, and perhaps before that, great improvement will take place in broadcasting arrangements in Scotland, so that there is really no injustice to the old country.

Censorship (Relaxation)

asked the Minister of Information whether the censorship of mail and prohibition of parcel post between Great Britain and Northern Ireland will now be brought to an end.

asked the Minister of Information if he is now in a position to state whether the censorship on postal, telegraph and telephone communications in this country is now to be abolished or in what direction relaxations have already taken place and are expected to take place in the future.

I apologise for the length of the answer. All internal censorship in this country has now ceased. The censorship of mails and of documents carried by pasengers, from Northern Ireland and Eire to Great Britain, has also ceased. Within 30 days there will be an end to the censorship of mails, and of documents carried by passengers, from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. The censorship control of parcels and freight, the examination of telegrams and the control of telephone calls between the two countries will also by then have ceased. Within 30 days the censorship of mails between the United Kingdom on the one hand and Gibraltar, Canada and the United States on the other hand will have ceased. No other censorship of mails to the British Dominions and Colonies now remains. Censorship of the mails to Eire and to other overseas countries will continue until the Allied censorship in Germany and Austria and other controls in Europe are strong enough to prevent the escape of war criminals and to enable property and securities looted by the enemy to be traced. The period in which this remaining censorship operates will be made as brief as possible. Until the end of the war with Japan censorship of all kinds of overseas telecommunications will be maintained because of the danger of interception by the Japanese.

Can my right hon. Friend say when the tapping of telephone calls will stop?

If my hon. and gallant Friend had obliged me by listening to my answer, he would have discovered it then.

When my right hon. Friend says that the censorship of parcels and mails from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will cease within 30 days, does that mean it may cease in a considerably shorter time?

Yes, Sir, we are doing everything we can now to put the censorship on real constructive work.

Foreign Language Broadcasts

asked the Minister of Information what arrangements have been made for continuing the foreign languages broadcasting to Europe and elsewhere; what funds have been allotted to this service; and under whose control and direction it will operate.

At present the B.B.C. continues its foreign-language services which are financed as hitherto out of the Broadcasting Vote. The services directed to Europe will shortly be reduced in scale. No long-term arrangements have yet been made.

Will my right hon. Friend give the House an assurance that no licence questions or departmental questions will prevent our continuing to give an efficient news service to Europe, especially in these coming months?

My hon. Friend's suggestion will, of course, be carefully considered, but I do remind the House that they have pressed strongly for a curtailment of the activities of the Ministry of Information. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not all of them."] Well, it is no use saying "Not all of them." You cannot knock off just one of them. I say, therefore, that we shall do our best to provide an adequate service to Europe, but it seems to be quite impossible to keep the Ministry of Information going on its present scale, because we have to defer to the decision of this House taken a long time ago, that when the war was over we should fade away.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take note of the fact, if he has not already done so, that in France, Belgium and other countries in Europe there is at the present moment a most profound interest and desire for information from this country and about British institutions in general; and will he not reconsider the policy of His Majesty's Government with regard to the curtailment of the B.B.C, and the curtailment of the activities of the British Council, especially designed for this purpose, which seems practically to ensure that we shall miss a great opportunity?

That is a matter for the Prime Minister, not for me. I must say I am surprised that, just as we expected our funeral arrangements to be made, such great efforts should be made to keep the Ministry of Information going. All I can say is that the hon. Gentleman's suggestion will certainly be borne in mind and I will refer it to the Cabinet.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the desire that the British view of life should still be spread to other countries, does not in any way involve the continuation of the whole of his Ministry? Will he bear in mind that already the European service of the B.B.C. is in process of disintegration, and that they are losing a lot of their best officials?

My hon. Friend does not appear to realise that the European service of the B.B.C. was a service established by His Majesty's Government and by the Ministry of Information, and not by the B.B.C. Governors, and therefore we have to face up to the fact. It may be that what is said here to-day may have an impression on the Cabinet, but at the moment we definitely must cut down on the Ministry of Information. I am very touched at these signs of solicitude for our existence, but I am afraid it is too late now to perpetuate this Department.

Does my right hon. Friend notice that all the pressures for the continuance of these broadcasts come from people of Left Wing tendencies?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say on what date and on what Motion this House reached the decision to which he referred?

I cannot remember on what Motion, but I can remember that about a year and a half ago the Ministry of Information was the principal whipping boy for the Government and the House was obviously quite determined to fulfil the promise made to them, I think by Lord Templewood, that the Ministry of Information was a war-time Department.

In view of the answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment along with a matter of which I gave notice earlier.

Foreign Publicity Services

asked the Minister of Information what steps have been taken to develop the foreign publicity services of his Department and to co-ordinate them with the European activities of the British Council and the B.B.C.

As soon as a British diplomatic mission is established in any liberated country in Europe, arrangements are made with the Foreign Office for the appointment of a Press Attaché with appropriate staff. His work is to provide the usual information services about the United Kingdom and the British war effort. The work so done is co-ordinated with that of the B.B.C. and British Council by exchanges of information and discussion.

Grade.

Salary scale.

Weekly wage scale.

1

Director

£900 to £1,100

3

Senior Staff Officers

£700 to £860

18

Clerks, First Class

£600 to £700

51

Clerks, Second Class

£275 to £575

1

Head Assistant

93s. to 100s. 6d.

37

Assistants

51s. to 83s.

6

Temporary Assistants

51s. to 74s.

(NOTE.—The remuneration shown does not include cost-of-living bonus.)

These officers are recruited from Post Office staff and the qualifications required are a good knowledge of postal procedure and practice, and personal qualities of a high standard. Selected officers are given training before appointment.

In addition, 49 serving members of the Metropolitan Police Force are seconded to the Post Office Investigation Branch for special duties and ten retired police officials of various ranks are employed

Post Office

Thefts (Detection and Prevention)

asked the Postmaster-General what are the numbers, qualifications and salaries of officials or others employed by him to detect and prevent the thefts of articles entrusted to his care.

As the reply is necessarily rather long I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the statement:

As regards the prevention of theft, supervising officers at Post Office buildings and at railway platforms exercise vigilance to ensure the safety of the mails, and it is also the duty of all employees of the Post Office to safeguard mails when they are in their custody. In addition, seven senior outdoor supervising officers are employed on inspectorial duties of a general nature covering the safety of mails in transit. These officers are on a salary scale £435£515.

A specific responsibility for the detection of thefts is placed also on the Investigation Branch, which is part of Post Office Headquarters. Excluding some 20 general clerical staff the Branch is staffed by 117 officers graded and paid as follows:

throughout the country in a temporary capacity.

The Investigation Branch staff work in close co-operation with the staff of the local Post Offices: in all London District Post Offices and the larger Provincial Post Offices supervising officers are specially detailed to assist in local inquiries; the Investigation Branch staff also work in close co-operation with the various Police Forces throughout the country—including the Railway Police.

Wireless Receiving Licences, Scotland

asked the Post master-General the revenue collected from B.B.C. licences in Scotland.

The revenue collected from broadcast wireless receiving licences in Scotland during the year ended 31st March last was £481,106.

Telegrams (Block Letters)

asked the Postmaster-General if he will make regulations that telegrams be written wholly or partly in block letters.

I hardly think it suitable to make the use of block letters compulsory, but it is most desirable that telegrams should be so written, particularly the name and address of the person for whom they are intended. Badly written telegrams are apt to cause delay and mistakes in transmission.

Housing

Special Repair Service

asked the Minister of Works how many persons are employed in the special repair service section of his Ministry; what is their total remuneration: and for what period it is intended to continue this service period.

About 5,500, most of whom are building trade operatives; their total remuneration is about £40,000 per week. The need for the continuation of this service will at intervals be reviewed.

Is the rough average of £8 a week customary in the building trade?

Of course, a certain number of these men are not building trade operatives and this is an entirely mobile labour force and therefore receives certain certain additional allowances, such as subsistence allowance. Otherwise they receive ordinary London rates of pay.

Is it not a fact that many of these men have to keep two homes going?

Brickwork (Labour Cost)

asked the Minister of Works what was the labour cost of laying a rod of brickwork of houses on cottage estates in 1938 and the present time and what time was occupied or allowed for such work on the average in 1938 and what time is similarly occupied or allowed at the present time.

No accurate information is available as to the cost of laying a rod of brickwork on cottage estates in 1938, nor have any estates of this kind been erected since the war. I regret that there is, therefore, no basis on which to make a useful comparison.

Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman cannot give any comparable figures as to the cost of erecting brickwork in 1938 and now?

Perhaps the hon. Member will discuss the matter with me, so that we may arrive at some other suitable yardstick by which we could compare the two.

Bomb Damage Repairs

asked the Minister of Works if he is aware that the cutting out of Sunday work by men engaged on the repair of bomb damage in London and the increase of the work on weekdays by half an hour per day has reduced the average rate per hour earned by these men; and what steps he is taking to remove the unrest caused by this alteration.

The cutting out of Sunday work must, of course, result in some reduction in earnings. However, as I explained to the House last week, I am convinced that continuous working for 7 days a week is neither efficient nor economical and is in the long run, prejudicial to health.

Is not the Minister aware that cutting out Sunday work and increasing the working hours on weekdays results in workmen getting less money because they lose their double time?

Is it not true that the Common Wealth Party call themselves the Christian party, and ought they not to keep the Sabbath?

I am not proposing to answer the hon. Lady, but in answer to the hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. Lawson) I want to say that I am convinced that the decision I took was the right one. Moreover, it was taken on the unanimous advice of the official representatives of both the trade unions and the employers.

asked the Minister of Works whether he has examined the position in provincial areas where there is a substantial amount of bomb-damage repair work outstanding; and whether he now proposes to return any labour from London to these areas.

The need for labour for bomb damage repair in London is still very great and large releases of men cannot yet be contemplated. I am, however, arranging that men will be allowed to return to provincial cities where there is still a heavy programme of repairs outstanding and where there is a particularly acute shortage of labour.

Does my right hon. Friend understand that other bombed out areas have even greater need in some ways than London, because they have been entirely wiped out?

The hon. Lady may be glad to know that Plymouth is one of the cities to which we shall return men, also Hull, Yarmouth and Lowestoft.

German Labour

asked the Minister of Works whether it is proposed to extract from the millions of German prisoners captured by the Anglo-American Armies all builders, skilled labourers and craftsmen, for the purpose of rapidly enlarging on an immense scale the available labour force for the construction of new houses as well as for bomb-damage repair work in this country; and what approach has been made to the trade unions in this connection.

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer I gave to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hornsey (Captain Gammans) on 9th May. The Minister of Labour and I have discussed this matter fully with the representatives of the National Federation of Building Trade Operatives, as well as with the Federation of Civil Engineering Contractors.

Can my right hon. Friend give us an assurance that no vested interests have been, or will be, allowed to obstruct this programme?

Temporary Houses (Steel Basins)

asked the Minister of Works why it was proposed to use pressed steel instead of earthenware for basins in temporary houses.

More than two-thirds of the total number of temporary houses allocated up to date will have earthenware basins. In the case of the others, steel basins are being included as part of a built-in pressed-steel fitment for the sake of simplifying production.

Prefabricated Houses, Slough

asked the Minister of Works when the contract for the slabbing of the Kendal Drive site at Slough was let to a contractor; when this work will commence; when it will be completed; and by what date it is expected that the prefabricated houses will be erected and ready for occupation.

A contract was let on 5th May. Preliminary work is starting this week. Slabbing should be completed during July and the houses should be ready for occupation one month later.

Can my right hon. Friend say why there was delay in issuing the contract, as the local authority completed their work on the site as long ago as early March?

Questions

Westminster Hall (Temporary Structures)

asked the Minister of Works for what purpose temporary structures are being erected in Westminster Hall.

These temporary structures are being erected in Westminster Hall to accommodate the Vote Despatch Office and the Sales Office, which will have to be moved when the demolition of the remains of the House of Commons' Chamber begins.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that this historic building should be cluttered up in this way?

If my hon. and gallant Friend can suggest any better place I will consider it.

Royal Navy

Government Policy

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will give an assurance that a strong up-to-date Navy, with a regular replacement programme, is the policy of the Government.

Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to support that policy for many years to come?

Shipbuilding Orders (Employment)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of Dutch shipbuilding orders being placed with the U.S.A. owing to our inability to give delivery, he can give an assurance that the shipyard workers and engineers at present employed in Tyneside shipyards and engine works will be fully occupied for the next ten years.

The Dutch Government and our other European Allies have recently been offered the opportunity of placing orders for merchant ships in this country in order to assist them in replacing war losses. It is expected that substantial orders from Holland will soon be placed in the United Kingdom. His Majesty's Government will, of course, seek to ensure full employment in the shipbuilding industry in accordance with their employment policy, but I cannot at present forecast the future scale of the industry as a whole or in any particular area.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication as to how long work will be available?

Not in reply to a question. The hon. Lady is asking me to make a prophecy as to what is to happen 10 years hence.

What steps is the Minister taking to ensure the continuity of employment which he has indicated to the House?

Both sides of the industry, employers and workers, are engaged with representatives of the Ministry of War Transport and the Admiralty in making what plans they can in that matter. They are in fullest consultation.

Can the Minister say whether the work will be divided, in proportion to the work which has been done for the Admiralty, between the various shipyards in the country?

I indicated in the Debate on the subject that we shall take every possible step we can, when we know more details of the post-war position, to balance the building as far as possible.

Is not the only way to guarantee continuous employment for the Government to take over the shipyards, and run them?

Surrendered U-Boats (Exhibition)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will arrange for one or more of the surrendered German U-boats to be brought up the Thames and placed on public exhibition.

Arrangements are being made for at least one U-boat to be exhibited publicly at various ports, including London. Details of the places and times will be made available as soon as possible.

With reference to the Thames, will the Minister bear in mind the suitability of Gravesend?

Questions

Cyprus (Disturbances, Lefkonico)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether further action has been taken on the Lef-konico shootings in Cyprus; why the interview with the mayor, on 27th March, was censored in the "Cyprus Post"; why the official statements issued to the Press were the only statements allowed to appear; and if he is satisfied that these were accurate.

As the hon. Member was informed in reply to a Question on 18th April, the Governor has appointed a Commission of Inquiry to report on this incident. The Commission has completed the taking of evidence, but has not yet submitted its Report. The question of what action should be taken will be considered in the light of this Report. In the interest of the maintenance of public order, the Governor decided to place restrictions on the publication in the Press of reports and comments on the disturbance from 26th to 28th March, pending the opening of the inquiry. I see no reason to suppose that the official communiqués contained an unfair statement of the facts, so far as they could be ascertained at the time.

In view of the very considerable public interest which this incident has aroused, the protests of political parties, and the decision of the newspapers themselves to cease publication altogether for a number of days, is it not about time that some consideration was given to this rather illiberal Press system, and that much more liberal measures were adopted towards publications in Cyprus?

This censorship lasted for only two days—from 26th to 28th March—and was necessitated by the fact that wholly inaccurate statements, involving multiplying the casualties, by 10, 20 or 100 times, were circulated, which, obviously, had an effect on public order.

Is the Minister aware that the Mayor gave an interview in which the precise facts were stated, and that the censorship was applied to that interview although the Government themselves issued a statement which was not accurate?

It could not have delayed that statement by more than two days, or probably one day.

Malaya (Rehabilitation)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what plans have been made for the rehabilitation of Malaya; whether discussions have been proceeding with economic and other interests in these territories; and whether any policy has yet been formulated in regard to political relations.

As regards the first part of the Question, plans in all fields for this purpose in Malaya are being completed as far as possible. His Majesty's Government are taking all steps in their power to ensure that the people of Malaya receive supplies on liberation, and that essential public utilities and other industries are restored as soon as military circumstances permit. The answer to the second part of the Question is in the affirmative. The subject of the third part of the Question is receiving careful study, but I regret that I am not in a position yet to make a statement.

May I ask when we shall have an opportunity of knowing what the plans in regard to Malaya are likely to be? Is the Minister aware that already a number of private companies are making statements to the effect that agreements have been reached with the Colonial Office, and in view of that is it not time that a White Paper was published which would give us some knowledge of the Government's intentions?

I would like to give any information possible. I will look into the question whether this is an appropriate time, or whether I shall be able to give fuller information a little later.

Jamaica (Economic Policy Committee)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if His Majesty's Government have now had an opportunity of considering the Report of the Jamaican Economy Policy Committee, of which Dr. Benham, Economic Adviser to the Comptroller of Development and Welfare in the West Indies, is chairman; and whether he has any observations to make.

The Economic Policy Committee was appointed by the Governor of Jamaica and the Committee reported direct to him. The report is now under consideration by the Government of Jamaica, and I have no observations to make on it at this stage.

Am I to take it that this matter does not come under review at the Colonial Office? Will not my right hon. and gallant Friend also express himself on it?

My hon. and gallant Friend will realise that Jamaica now exercises a very considerable degree of self-government, and any observations I have to make would naturally be very much influenced by the views of the Jamaica Government.

Scotland

Glasgow-Campbeltown Services

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if he will take immediate steps to see to the placing of a passenger and cargo vessel on the Glasgow-Campbeltown service.

A cargo steamer sails from Glasgow to Campbeltown on Monday, Wednesday and Friday of each week, and returns from Campbeltown on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. For passengers, there is a daily air service and an omnibus service twice a day in each direction. Passengers can also travel by a daily steamer from Glasgow to Tarbert and from there to Campbeltown by omnibus. Before the war, two ships worked on this route. One of them has been sunk, and the other acquired by the Admiralty for Naval service. I regret that there are no suitable vessels now available to replace them.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is penalising very important agricultural areas; and will he not take the matter more seriously?

Of course, I regret the service is not better, but considering that we are still working in war-time conditions and there is great strain on shipping, I consider that the facilities both for passengers and for cargo are very good.

Would it not be better to run a steamer from Wemyss Bay direct to Campbeltown rather than from Wemyss Bay to Tarbert with a bus service from Tarbert to Campbeltown—a very roundabout way?

Of course, it would be more convenient, but many people in many parts of the country have had to put up with great inconvenience.

McLeod Steam Turbine Unit

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport, why, in view of the McLeod steam turbine unit having successfully passed its bench trial, it has not been fitted in the "Empire Oppossum" at present lying in the Gare Loch with broken down main engines, particularly when the managers of this ship have indicated their willingness to install this unit and a prominent Glasgow engineering firm are willing to undertake installation.

I am informed that this turbine unit has in fact been subjected only to a short bench trial, and that conditions were such that only about 50 per cent. of its designed power could be developed. I am advised that, before the unit is fitted in a ship, satisfactory full power bench tests are essential. The inventor was so informed in April, 1943, but so far no such tests have, I understand, been made. My Noble Friend regards the question of the development of this unit as a matter for the Shipping Industry.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many engines fitted to His Majesty's ships have not been subjected to such a trial? In view of the fact that one of the greatest engineering firms has offered to install this machinery in five weeks, and in view of the shortage of shipping, does not the hon. Gentleman think the matter should be gone on with?

I shall be glad to consider any information with regard to other similar units, but with regard to the fitting of this unit, no doubt there are firms ready to fit it but it would not necessarily be in the national interest that the job should be done.

Is my hon. Friend not aware that this engine represents a marked advance in engineering science and that it will be of immense service in the years ahead in the development of engineering and shipbuilding?

If the engine proved to be what the inventor hopes, it would be of great service, but that is precisely the point which is not yet established, and until full bench tests have been made it is not considered desirable or right to try it in ships.

Is my hon. Friend not aware that there is a feeling that certain vested interests are keeping this much-needed design from coming into practice?

I will submit what my hon. Friend says to my Noble Friend, but I think I should tell the House that my Noble Friend has given the matter close personal attention.

Will the hon. Gentleman take steps to have these trials carried out, seeing that the engine has been running to the knowledge of the Government for some five years without any attempt to have these trials?

In my Noble Friend's view, the making of the bench test is for the inventor himself to carry through.

Germany

Administration

asked the Prime Minister whether he will ensure that such form of government as it is possible, during Allied occupation, to entrust to Germans will be regional government and not central government.

I am not sure whether any machinery of government, whether central or regional, can be said to exist at present in Germany, and in any case I should prefer, in replying to this Question, to speak of administrations rather than governments. In general it is our aim that Germans should administer their country in obedience to Allied directions. We have no intention of undertaking the burden of administer-in Germany ourselves.

What is the authority which purports to be broadcasting from Flensburg in the name of a Government alleged to be led by Admiral Doenitz?

I think I would rather cast my thought in a considered mould before replying.

Allied Broadcasts

asked the Prime Minister how many of the German radio stations in Germany are now being operated, respectively, by British, U.S.A. and Russian authorities; and will he arrange for an opportunity to be given for a comparison to be made of what is broadcast by each Ally for those who do not understand or are unable to receive these broadcasts in German.

I understand that the British, American and Russian authorities are each operating one wireless station in Germany. As regards the last part of my hon. Friend's Question, the daily digest of foreign broadcasts available in the House of Commons Library gives points from Allied broadcasts in German. The labour and paper required for supplying full translations of the broadcasts could hardly be justified at this moment.

Himmler (Whereabouts)

asked the Prime Minister if he has any information as to the whereabouts of Himmler.

No, Sir. I have a great deal of work to do. I expect he will turn up somewhere in this world or the next, and will be dealt with by the appropriate local authorities. The latter would be more convenient to His Majesty's Government.

Military Occupation

asked the Prime Minister if the declaration of policy regarding the military occupation of Germany by the Government of the U.S.A. substantially represents the policy of His Majesty's Government; and to what extent agreement on this subject has been reached between the Governments of the four occupying Powers.

I presume my hon. and gallant Friend is referring to the statement on the planning of the United States Element in the Inter-Allied Control Machinery for Germany which was made by the United States Secretary for War on 11th May. These plans are based upon the agreement already reached between the four Allied Governments for the control of Germany. The answer to the first part of the Question is therefore in the affirmative.

Questions

War Despatches (Publication)

asked the Prime Minister whether he now has any information to give the House regarding the publication of commanders' despatches received during the present war.

As I said in my answer to my hon. Friend on 10th April, I hope that they will be published in the near future. I think it better in the interest of the writers to wait till the public mind is less occupied.

As these despatches contain very valuable information which will enable Parliament and the public to formulate the right opinions in the future, will my right hon. Friend consider expediting the publication of the despatches, which in the last war were published during the war?

Captured Enemy Leaders (Press Interviews)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in consultation with our Allies, he will prevent enemy leaders in Allied custody from giving interviews to the Press.

The policy of His Majesty's Government was expressed very well in the statement of the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, General Eisenhower, reported in yesterday's newspapers.

Late Earl Lloyd-George (Statue)

asked the Prime Minister whether a decision has been made for a statue of the late Earl Lloyd-George, at the nation's expense; and whether he will consider reducing the number of years, which have to elapse before the statue can be erected, from 10 to two or three.

It is much wiser from every point of view to adhere to the minimum interval of ten years.

War Production Policy

asked the Minister of Production whether he can make a statement about the Government's war production policy in the light of the present military situation.

The answer to my hon. Friend's Question is necessarily long and detailed, and I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

1. I wish to inform the House of the steps which are being taken to reduce the volume of munitions production. Now that the enemy at our gates has been destroyed, we have to revise our ideas and adjust our military provision to what is necessary for our remaining tasks. The House is entitled to ask for assurance that all that is possible is being done to limit waste and to make certain that the nation's energies are not being squandered on munitions that can never be used.

2. Certain action had already been taken in accordance with the favourable progress of the war. Now that victory is achieved further measures are being taken immediately to prevent wasteful production. In what follows, I must confine myself to describing what we are doing to cut down munitions output. It must be for my right hon. Friends the Minister of Labour and the President of the Board of Trade, with whom I am maintaining the closest touch, to deal with the closely associated problems of labour transfer and re-expansion of civil industry.

3. Hitherto our main pre-ocupation has been the war in Europe. We have always aimed to provide our Forces as fully as lay in our power with the weapons necessary for their tasks. We have considered it best (and the House would, I feel certain, agree) to err on the side of generosity rather than of parsimony. To that end we have run grave risks both with our civil standards and with our exports.

4. We have ended the German war with substantial stocks of certain weapons. In the great majority of cases these stocks have a continuing value, and are necessary to cover our requirements for the Japanese war or for the occupation of Europe. In the few cases where they have no such use, we must regard them as a proper part of the price of victory. It would have been an act of wildest imprudence to have planned on the rigid assumption that the Allied Armies would successfully cross the Rhine at the first attempt, or that they would sweep across Germany without set-back. No one can hope to win a campaign without substantial reserves in hand.

5. Our programmes have, of course, taken account for a long time past of the needs of the Japanese War. The part that we can play in it and the munitions required for it have inevitably depended upon the progress made by the South East Asia Command and the United States Forces already deployed in the Far East. A further element of uncertainty was, of course, the unknown date of the end of the German war in relation to the progress in the Far East. It has, therefore, been necessary to make continuous scrutiny over the past two years of our probable Japanese war requirements, after the German war was ended, in relation to this changing background.

6. The scaling down of munitions to the Japanese War level is in fact a further stage in a process that had already been forced upon us by circumstances. The House will I think better follow this process if, with the consent of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, I give them certain figures of our labour force on munitions during the past two or three years, carrying forward the figures given in the White Paper of Statistics relating to the War Effort of the United Kingdom.

7. If we take the main part of our munitions production, as represented by the engineering, chemical and shipbuilding industries, we reached the peak of our mobilisation late in 1943, with about 4¼ millions working on orders for the three Supply Departments. It was then decided to make 1944 our year of maximum impact on Germany. That involved some withdrawal from munitions to increase and maintain the manpower of the Armed Forces, and to strengthen certain services, such as depots, docks and transport, which were necessary for the base services we had to provide for the Allied Forces. In consequence, by mid-1944 the comparable figure on munitions was down to a little over four millions.

8. Maximum impact means throwing: against the enemy for a short time a greater weight of effort than can be maintained continuously. Before the end of the year we suffered the inevitable recoil from the maximum impact around D-day. This took the form of a shrinkage in our total available man-power. At the same time it became necessary during the late Autumn to provide further reinforcements to maintain our Forces in the field during 1945. All this brought our manpower on

9. Our earlier estimate of the manpower required in this country for munitions by the end of the first year of the Japanese war was about 2¼ millions and we expected to come down to this figure progressively over a year; that estimate assumed, of course, the scale of assistance that we had reason to expect from the United States, from Canada and the rest of the Dominions. It was with this figure and the then current figure of 4 millions in mind that I told the House in June, 1944, as a guide to the order of magnitude, "that more of the resources will be required for the war against Japan than will be released."

10. After discussion in Washington, I am satisfied that our planned reductions are broadly in line with those of the United States.

11. Some weeks ago, the Prime Minister asked that all our requirements should once again be re-examined as quickly as possible in the light of our latest views of the probable course of the war and of the stocks remaining from the German war. This is a large and complicated undertaking, involving many thousands of individual items. It will necessarily take some time to complete. But I hope that when it is completed it will show the possibility of considerable further reduction.

12. Meanwhile, quite apart from this larger re-examination, I had some time before V.E. day asked the Service and Supply Departments to make a quick scrutiny of a number of main weapons and stores, and where it was clear that adequate stocks were in hand or there was no large continuing requirement for the Japanese war, to cut down production as quickly as possible. I am discussing with the Departments concerned particular cases where the scale of our requirements and the appropriate production programmes are still open to question.

13. All this has been for some time in process, and many firms have already been asked to reduce or stop production. In other cases discussions are rapidly proceeding. It is our aim to ensure so far as we possibly can that output is cut in

14. It is my firm purpose to secure all the saving of the nation's man-power and energies that is consistent with the full performance of our obligations both to our Allies and to our own Forces—no one in this House would for a moment suggest that they should go short of anything that can materially contribute to shorten the war or to save lives. But whatever the outcome of the present re-examination of our requirements, I am anxious that the House should appreciate two things: first, that our tasks in the Japanese war must continue for some time to impose a very considerable burden on our industries; second, that generally speaking we must look in the near future, not for slashing cuts in our munitions programmes, but rather for an acceleration of the continuing process of adjustment that has been going on for a year past.

15. There is one cognate question to which I should like briefly to refer. Over the past few years my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and I have together worked out a system, which I need not describe in detail, to secure that a priority in the supply of labour should be accorded to the products and services most urgently needed for the war. One of our first tasks, when the approach of victory was apparent, was to go through the claims to such priority and to make drastic revisions both in the outstanding claims and in the grounds on which priority might be obtained. I can assure the House that the claims of munitions will now be limited to those cases where assistance is genuinely required for products of real strategic necessity. A very large proportion of the outstanding claims to the highest priority are now for peace rather than war production.

16. The task of organisation that lies ahead of us is that of reducing smoothly, over a few months, a munitions programme that has taken five years or more to build up, at a time when large numbers from the Armed Forces are being simultaneously re-absorbed into civil life. That is a truly formidable task. We are planning, so far as possible, to make the present cuts where man-power and capacity can best be used. It will be for industry to plays its own very important part in pressing forward with its

Industrial Reconversion, Birmingham

asked the Minister of Production the extent to which authority has now been given to industrial organisations in the Birmingham area to transfer their production from war purposes to those of commerce and industry.

In the Birmingham area, as elsewhere, authorisations designed to lead to increased civil production are being granted on the scale justified by the curtailment of war production, the extent of which is governed by the needs of the war against Japan. The degree to which an undertaking can be authorised to turn over to civil production depends not only on the further war production required of it, but on the demands for labour for other work of importance in the neighbourhood. The question does not lend itself to a more precise answer, but if my hon. Friend has any particular issue in mind perhaps he will communicate with me about it.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is some fear in Birmingham that he is suffering from inter-departmental obstruction in this matter, and will he do his best to solve this local squabble in Whitehall so that Birmingham can get on with the business?

I am quite unaware of the circumstances of which my hon. Friend is speaking.

Chemical Defence Experimental Stations

asked the Minister of Supply if he can yet give any indication as to what steps he proposes to take to dispose of the chemical warfare experimental stations to the best national advantage.

The Chemical Defence Experimental Stations, the activities of which include work on smoke-screening and insecticide applications, must for the present be maintained to meet the demands of the Japanese war. Their future beyond this period is now under consideration.

Will the Minister keep in mind the needs of university research departments?

General Election (Paper Supplies)

asked the Minister of Supply whether candidates for Parliament will be able to allot their quotas of paper to more than one merchant or printer.

Yes, Sir. Provided the total quota is not exceeded, a candidate, through his agent, will be able to issue as many certificates as he wishes, and these certificates will entitle any merchants or printers supplying the paper to replacement.

Are persons who are probably going to be candidates able to get permits now so that they can order such things as envelopes in anticipation?

The permits obviously cannot be issued until the decision to stand as a candidate is finally taken and the election is declared.

Does not that mean that such persons will not be able to make any preparations in advance, and that the time may come when it will be quite impossible for them to get envelopes even though they have a permit?

Consultations are taking place with a view to making arrangements to spread supplies so that that situation will not arise.

Slaughterhouse, Stanbeck (Damage by Cattle)

asked the Minister of Food why his Ministry refuses to accept responsibility for damage to property caused by cattle going into his Ministry's slaughterhouse at Stanbeck.

Claims for damage to property caused by cattle going into my Ministry's slaughterhouses are paid in all cases where evidence of legal liability to pay for the damage is available. In the case to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers no satisfactory evidence has been produced by the claimant to show that my Department is legally liable for the damage in question and I am unable to authorise any payment out of public funds.

Is not my right hon. and gallant Friend prepared to make some recognition of this continual damage?

I am afraid not in this case. The damage cannot be traced to the Ministry's cattle.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the answer, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Roads

Government Policy

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport when he anticipates that it will be possible to make a statement on the national post-war road policy of the Government.

My hon. and gallant Friend will perhaps remember that I made a full statement of the Government's post-war policy about roads on 25th January, 1944. Our plans are proceeding on the basis of that statement.

Will my hon. Friend make no plans for any road which leads to the Stage Door Canteen?

Automatic Traffic Signals (Masks)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if he will now give instructions for all masks to be removed from automatic traffic signals.

It is within the discretion of highway authorities, in consultation with the police, to remove the masks on traffic signals. Their decisions will be made on the basis of the considerations set out in the circular issued by my Department on 18th December, 1944. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of this circular.

There is difficulty in restoring the normal peace standard of street lighting. Until that is restored, you cannot have the full light in the signals, or else there would be too much dazzle.

Questions

Liverpool-Belfast Steamer Service

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport what functions are now being performed by the ships of the pre-war Liverpool to Belfast service; and whether he can make a statement as to the resumption of that service.

Before the war three ships were engaged on the service between Liverpool and Belfast. One of them has been sunk; one has been acquired by the Government for naval work; the third is also on Admiralty service. As soon as other suitable vessels can be released from Service requirements the service will be restored. I regret that I am not yet able to say when this will be.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Northern Ireland helped the Admiralty very much in 1941 by stopping the blockade of Great Britain, and will not the Admiralty help now to stop the blockade of Northern Ireland?

We desire nothing better than to restore this service, but we cannot do it until ships are made available to us.

Merchant Navy (War Risk Money)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport how long it is proposed to continue the payment of war risk money to officers and men of the Mercantile Marine.

War risk money is paid to the officers and men of the Merchant Navy under an agreement made by the National Maritime Board. Its cessation or reduction will be negotiated through the same machinery.

Will my hon. Friend give at the earliest opportunity exact details, particularly as to whether this money will be paid for the whole voyage or only while in the combat area? Many men are of the opinion that the payment of the money will immediately cease.

It is for the representatives of the officers and men, through their society, to take the question up with the National Maritime Board.

Women's Land Army (Training and Educational Facilities)

With the leave of the House, I wish to make a statement.

The Government have received representation from many quarters, including a deputation from Members of this House, asking that the Women's Land Army should be included in the financial benefits to be given to ex-Servicemen and women and the Civil Defence Services. The Government recognise fully the magnificent, unselfish and patriotic service given by members of the Women's Land Army, without which the food production campaign would not have been possible. Nevertheless, for the reasons stated by my right, hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 8th March the Government cannot accede to these representations which would have wide repercussions on other classes of civil workers. After very full consideration, however, the Government has decided to adopt the following proposals which it is hoped will go some way towards helping members of the Land Army.

For those who wish to make agriculture their career, specialised training in agricultural work suitable for women will be provided at Government expense. For girls of a suitable educational standard whose further education has been interrupted or prevented courses of higher agricultural education will be provided under the Further Education and Training Scheme leading to posts in advisory, instructional and research services. In addition, every encouragement will be given to suitable members of the Women's Land Army who have at least two years' service who wish to take up semi-agricultural work such as milk testing, sampling or recording, farm secretarial work, etc. Such members will be given willing release and where possible preference will be given to the Women's Land Army for such appointments.

For those who do not wish to make agriculture their career, free Government training under the same conditions as for the Women's Auxiliary Services and other war services will be available on their release from the Women's Land Army. Further, in many cases members may have difficulty in returning to their previous occupations and require financial assistance to do so. In both England and Wales and in Scotland there are Women's Land Army Funds which can provide financial assistance to Women's Land Army members in case of hardship. The Government have already contributed to these Welfare Funds and it is now proposed to increase these contributions by £150,000 in England and Wales and £20,000 in Scotland.

In addition, it is proposed that Women's Land Army members on release after a minimum of six months' service may retain some items of their uniform, namely a greatcoat (dyed navy blue), a pair of shoes and a shirt. Moreover, on the final disbandment of the Women's Land Army members will be allowed to retain their badges and badges will also be re-issued to those members with six months' service who have been previously released. While the Government recognise that these proposals do not fully meet the representations made on behalf of the Women's Land Army, nevertheless we hope that they will be regarded as some recognition of the invaluable work that members of the Women's Land Army have done. Their task is by no means over. We shall need more, not less, women in the Land Army during the next two or three years. New members are urgently required. We are now considering the possibility of improving certain conditions of service, such as the provision of additional free railway warrants for journeys home, on which there have been complaints from time to time in the past. I hope that it will be possible to introduce some improvements of this nature in the near future.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his statement is not only most disappointing, but totally inadequate to meet many of the legitimate claims of the Women's Land Army?

Is it the intention to call these funds, to which my right hon. Friend said that contributions will be made, welfare funds, so that they will not in future be known as benevolent funds, and that they should not be restricted to cases of hardship? Will he bear in mind that in this case it is not benevolence that is wanted, but help towards the continuation of the careers of these girls?

If my hon. Friend will read my answer, he will see that there is a pretty strong hint in it of moving in the direction he wants to go.

Is this a Treasury decision and a Government decision, and has the Prime Minister really directed his great mind to the wrongs of these women?

Does the Minister realise that to the individual land girl this decision will represent only a token recognition of her services, and would not more generous treatment such as was asked for by the deputation, by encouraging girls to stay on the land, have not only helped themselves but helped agriculture as a whole?

I think that in the case of a large number of individual members of the Land Army, it will be found in practice that this represents a very considerable concession on the provisions that have hitherto been made.

Is it understood that this money recognition will not be subject to any Government rules and regulations, and that grants will be made by the welfare committees on the information on each case?

Is the Minister aware that this offer is mean and niggardly; and can he tell the House why even the £12 clothing grant has been withheld?

Will my right hon. Friend make an extra allocation of coupons to these girls, as they have been very short compared with other people, and they will find it difficult to go back into civil employment without extra coupons?

The answer to the hon. Member for West Fulham (Dr. Summer-skill) is contained in my reply, which said that the Government could not accede to these representations because of the wide repercussions they would have on all sorts of other classes of civil workers. The answer to my Noble Friend is that the President of the Board of Trade is unable to provide the necessary additional coupons.

Address to His Majesty (Arrangements)

May I ask the Prime Minister if he will state the order of Business to-morrow?

I have to report to the House that His Majesty the King has appointed 2.45 to-morrow, in the Royal Gallery of the Palace of Westminster, to be the time and place at which His Majesty will be attended by this House to receive the Address of Congratulation.

It may be for the convenience of the House if I state the arrangements for to-morrow. The House will meet at the usual time, and as many Members as possible are asked to be in their seats in the Royal Gallery by 2 p.m. After Prayers, as soon as I have been informally notified that the Members of the House of Lords are in their places, I shall proceed in procession to the Royal Gallery. After the departure of their Majesties, I shall return in procession, but shall not resume the Chair until 4 o'clock.

Bills Reported

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Irwell Valley Water Board) Bill

Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills.

Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow.

Marriages Provisional Order Bill

Reported, without Amendment, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills.

Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow.

Committee on Unopposed Bills

Leave given to the Committee to make a Special Report relative to the Marriages Provisional Order Bill.

Special Report, brought up, and read, as follows:

The Bill seeks to confirm an Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department for the purpose of removing any doubt as to the validity of marriages celebrated in the Church of St. Mary, Gravesend, during a period in which the church, by an oversight, was not licensed for the solemnisation of marriages. The Committee suggest that the Department might consult with the appropriate ecclesiastical authorities with a view to the publication in churches of a statement whether they are or are not licensed for the solemnisation of marriages.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Selection (Standing Committees)

Colonel Sir CHARLES MACANDREW reported from the Committee of Selection, That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee B (added in respect of the Forestry Bill): Mr. Eccles; and had appointed in substitution Lord William Scott.

Business of the House

To-morrow, Private Business and Questions to be taken at Four o'Clock and no Questions to be taken after Five o'Clock except Questions which have not been answered in consequence of the absence of the Minister to whom they are addressed, and Questions which have not appeared on the paper, but which are of an urgent character and relate either to matters of public importance or to the arrangement of business.—[ The Prime Minister. ]

Orders of the Day

Supply

[5TH ALLOTTED DAY]

Considered in Committee.

[Major MILNER in the Chair]

Civil Estimates, 1945; Navy, Army and Air Estimates, 1945

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a further sum, not exceeding £90, be granted to His Majesty towards defraying the charges for the following services connected with the Resettlement of Service Personnel and War Workers for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, namely:

Service Personnel and War Workers (Resettlement)

3.27 p.m.

I understand that I have had the good fortune to catch your eye, Major Milner, because I and some hon. Friends of mine put down a Motion on the Order Paper some time ago calling attention to this subject. I understand that I shall not be in Order in moving it, but I would like to call attention to its wording:

[ That this House is of the opinion that the Government's plans for the resettlement in civilian life of service personnel and war workers constitute a major national issue; that steps should be taken to ensure that such plans cover all sections of the community engaged on work of national importance connected with the war effort; and that the plans should receive further consideration at an early date. ]

On a point of Order. Are we to understand that, although the hon. Member may limit his remarks to the substance of his Motion, the Debate can proceed wider than the Amendment and can deal with other subjects affecting demobilisation?

I only wished to draw attention to the aspect of the matter that we wish to put forward. The wording of the Motion is of a rather high-sounding nature, and we shall be talking to-day in terms of organisation, man-power, co-ordination and phrases of that kind. But I want to stress at the outset that behind all these high-sounding phrases, lie two very simple things—homes and jobs. These two go together, and we must make no mistake about it. Important as jobs are, they will not give satisfaction, nor shall we get a well-contented and well-working people, unless homes are available and unless every young married man can have his own fireside. There is also a close connection because the building of homes constitutes an important part of the field of finding jobs. But, while I stress the human side, we are concerned here to-day with matters of policy, and I am addressing my remarks to my right hon. Friend who controls the levers of the complicated machinery of public policy. To watch the working of that machinery is our job.

I submit that there has never been a more important subject put before this Committee than that which we are considering to-day. The winding-up of this tremendous war machine has been a titanic effort, but the unwinding will be fraught with even greater difficulties, and if it is allowed to go wrong we shall create not only injustices but chaos in the country. We have to remember too that we are not unwinding the machine to get back to exactly the same position in which we were before the war. There has been a big change in industrial technique. Many old skills will no longer be required; we have indeed to think in terms not so much of the reconstruction as of the new construction of our industry.

I wish to raise certain points to-day, but what I and my friends particularly wanted was to give the Minister an opportunity to put before us a picture of his plans as a whole, showing how the various parts fit in together. I myself can only attempt to cover the matter in the broadest outline. I hope that other speakers will deal with points in greater detail, and I hope I shall not be misunderstood if I go very sketchily over the vast issues which are involved in this matter.

I believe that we can best appreciate the nature of the problem if we consider it in two broad aspects. First there is what I would describe as the national task, the task of getting our national economic set-up right; and secondly, there is the human task, the task of fitting in the individual men and women into that national set-up. Unless we do the first task well we cannot satisfactorily accomplish the second one. In raising certain questions I may perhaps be provocative, but that is only because I want to provoke definite and clear answers. I must confess that I have been somewhat concerned lately at some of the rather optimistic statements that seem to have been made as to this future task of ours, or at least statements which might give ground for over-complacent interpretation. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Production was reported in the Press on Saturday as having said: If we do not do that, even though the total requirements are much greater than our resources can fulfil we run the danger of having pockets of unemployment. The chief objects of my remarks on this part of the subject to-day are twofold: First, to raise the question whether the Government have a clear appreciation of the jobs that need to be done in the national interest in the next few years, and in what order; and, secondly, to put across the conception that we must have a balanced national labour force—balanced to fit in with those needs.

Let me be more specific. I want to refer to certain points, and I must apologise for going over ground which I touched to some extent in the Budget Debates. As I got no answer then, I propose to raise the same questions to-day. I confess that I am entirely sceptical about the practical value of some of the abstract theories as regards full employment, or of the blue prints of some kind of mechanism giving us an automatic, thermostatic control of employment. I stand for a simpler idea. I believe that the main jobs which have to be done during the next few years stand out quite clearly, and that if we plan those jobs effectively to-day not only shall we create a fruitful framework for employment but we shall develop a technique which may meet our needs in the future, and put ourselves into a position to start off the next chapter of our national effort on sound lines.

I think it must be fairly obvious to all hon. Members what our main tasks are. I would put first and foremost housing. That must have an A1 priority. That is a great human need, as I have already emphasised. Secondly, there is the less popular but very vital task of getting the lay-out and equipment of our great industries right. There is no need for me to go into the details to-day. The main outlines are becoming clear. We are beginning to see the picture as regards coal, iron and steel, textiles and transport. In all those main lines of activity tremendous capital expenditure programmes will be necessary in the next few years, and I submit that those must be planned and can be planned now. The third job is to organise the production of the necessary goods for export—exports of the right kind to buy our essential imports. Fourthly, and closely connected with that, is the task of producing the necessary consumption goods to carry on our own lives. That includes, of course, an agricultural production plan and an agricultural target. All those are direct production jobs for which the man-power requirements covering the next few years can be calculated now with some exactitude.

Then, of course, there are other important demands on man-power. In the first place there is all that is involved in our education programme. That means not only a demand for men and women as teachers but a reckoning of the effect which the increase of the school years will have on the withdrawal of man-power from direct labour. Last, and most important of all, there are the national requirements for defence. I hope we shall soon get definite ideas of what are the Government's plans under that head. Are we to have compulsory National Service, and for how long? What numbers will that mean withdrawing from active production? I submit to the Committee that all these are clear tasks, and that if we provide for these we shall have provided for steady employment, rational and fruitful employment, for such a large body of our industrial workers that the rest of the picture will fit in automatically.

I wish to ask whether, on the basis of these national needs, a broad survey has been made of the man-power requirements in different forms of employment; and on top of that I ask the much more difficult question, What do the Government propose to do in order to influence the flow of man-power in right proportions into those channels? If we cannot somehow or other produce a balanced national labour force, balanced to meet these needs, then all our plans and promises will "go West." We shall not be able to raise the money to pay the social dividends that we have declared, nor shall we produce the framework of fruitful employment required for the happy resettlement of men and women which we are considering to-day.

The question of what steps the Government are taking in order to ensure that result is, I recognise, an extremely difficult one. We all realise that the public will no longer tolerate anything like the compulsory direction of labour after the war. Therefore we must rely upon voluntary co-operation and upon commonsense. The point I desire to make is that I believe we can get that, but only if the nation has a clear picture of the national needs put before it by the Government. I believe that those responsible for industrial concerns will respond if they are told the needs. I believe, too, that our workers will tend to flow into the right channels if they know what is required. There is a great deal of commonsense about. Men do not want to go into forms of employment for which there is no future. I also believe that the force of enlightened public opinion may have a very strong effect.

I recognise, of course—and my right hon. Friend must know it only too well—that there are all sorts of difficulties. It is not solely a question of getting the right numbers into the right channels, but also of getting the right proportions of skilled workers in each channel. Are we going to have difficulties here? I have heard it said that there are signs of difficulty, that the aircraft industry, for example, which during the war has naturally collected a very high proportion of skilled workers, may show a desire to grab too high a proportion for their post-war plans. I would like to know if that is so, and if it should be so then I submit that it is necessary that the public should know the facts and that the industry should know the position. And here I am going to make a statement which no doubt will be received with a certain amount of scepticism, but I make it with conviction. I do not believe that there is any industry in this country which will fight for its sectional interests if it is made clear that those run counter to the national interest. Therefore, I am pleading for a statement of the Government's plans so that we may all know what is required in the national interest.

I submit, also, that this is necessary from the point of view of the men in the Forces, among whom, I believe, there is some unnecessary anxiety at present. I will just mention one small case which illustrates what is going on. I was talking at a working men's club in my constituency a few weeks ago, and a young Air Force mechanic came up to me after wards and said: "We chaps are worried about the future. Take my case. I was apprenticed as a turner before the war, and had done only a very short time as an apprentice when I went into the Air Force. I am now a mechanic in a bomber squadron. I reckon that I am a skilled craftsman now. I know, of course, I might have to do something to complete my apprenticeship, but I have a skill which is worth something now, and when we hear all about this great housing programme, while we all recognise it is a good thing what I and my pals are asking ourselves is, 'Are we going to be forced to become builders' labourers?' That would not satisfy us at all." I am not, of course, saying that I believe that is going to happen. I have confidence that my right hon. Friend has plans which will get the labour for the country's building programme without calling upon men of that kind to become builders' labourers; but I mention that case to illustrate the real need that these plans, which I submit could be clearly formulated now, should be formulated and made known. These are matters on which we must have a Government policy. Only the Government can survey the picture as a whole. We must remember, too, that to-day the Government have a stranglehold on industry, through the control of materials, building permits, etc. The Government should give us a clear appreciation in order to enlist the co-operation of industry into their general strategic plans, and on those lines we can proceed to a fruitful future.

I want to turn now to what I described as the second task—the human side—helping the individuals to get into their right places in the economic set-up. I, myself, am particularly concerned with ex-Service personnel. We cannot take that task too seriously. I have always regarded it as the first charge in our national war debt—a debt which above all must be honoured. As my right hon. Friend knows only too well, this question of the arrangements for individuals is an extremely complex matter. I will not attempt to traverse them in detail. We have in the first place to consider all the disabled men who will come under his plans for rehabilitation. I will not dwell on those. They have been debated already in this House and the right hon. Gentleman knows that everybody sympathises with what he is trying to do. We all want to see a most generous policy under that head.

Then one comes to the heading of reinstatement. That has also been debated. It, of course, covers the substantial body of men and women concerned. I will not attempt to deal with that in detail either; I want to make only one point in regard to it. The statutory obligation which exists under the Reinstatement Act carries us only a little way. It could not do otherwise. It would have been impossible to provide statutory provisions to cover the real needs of every case. It is not the statutory obligation on which we must rely; it is the moral obligation. It is the moral obligation of employers to get their former employees back to occupations worthy of their capacity, and to do what they can to make good the years which have been lost. There is a great need for active public opinion in this matter. According to my experience, most employers are anxious to do their best. There are to-day many employers who remember their own experiences after the last war, but I regret to say that one already hears of individual cases which cause one great concern. I would urge that when any case of that kind is heard, the employer concerned should be pilloried by public opinion, and every Member of Parliament should do his utmost in this matter.

Reinstatement, of course, will not cover all the cases. There will be a great body of men and women who have no jobs to which to return. There are the cases of those who had their period of education or apprenticeship interrupted. My right hon. Friend has most generous schemes under those heads. Let us in this Committee show that we support fully the policy of generous treatment of those who wish to continue with their education. Then there are cases, which will not be covered by reinstatement, of men who have developed new qualities and ideas and want to start in business on their own. That has been provided for. The point I wish to make is that there will be a great need for local advice and goodwill to ensure that men of that kind do not lose their money.

But, in what I have to say, I am particularly concerned with the large class of young men who will have gone straight from school into the Forces at the age of about 18—men of a high educational standard, who, if they are properly used, may be the making of this country in the future—and who will come out again in their early 20's. In numbers they form only a small proportion, but in quality they will be of tremendous value and they need particularly sympathetic attention. I include not only the men who went straight from school but also those who have revealed great qualities in time of war. We all know of many cases—many of us have cases in our own businesses—of men who went away as office boys and will come back as squadron leaders or higher. I wish to stress to the Committee the great need for giving human, sympathetic and helpful consideration to those people, not only because of our debt to them but because of their immense potential value to the country.

I wish next to say a few words on certain aspects of the plans and organisation of the Ministry of Labour for dealing with these cases. No one who has studied what is being done can fail to recognise that a great conception has been born in the Ministry, and there are being made plans which justify the hope of a much better organisation than anything we had after the last war. One important feature is that my right hon. Friend has set up Resettlement Advice Offices in all important towns. That is an excellent idea and, according to what I have seen in my own constituency at any rate, the men in charge of those offices are a well-chosen type. I hope it will be possible for us Members of Parliament to get in touch with those men in all our constituencies, and I hope my right hon. Friend will encourage that kind of contact. I suggest it would be of great value if he could set up something in the nature of a panel of local leading people to act as advisers in special cases. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman particularly to remember one point which has been impressed upon me by my own experience. I find that however good the official advice given to a man may be, he generally wants to check it. If the official says "I would not do this, I advise you to do this," the man may think the official is trying to put something across him and he wants to be able to go to some unofficial man whom he can trust in order to check that opinion. For that reason it would be of great value if unofficial people would get in touch with the work that is being done.

I also want to say a word about the organisation of the Appointments Branch. That, of course, is the main part of the machinery for helping those who are qualified for higher posts. Again, it seems to me that good men have been put into that organisation, but I want to stress the importance and the difficulty of their task particularly in regard to interviewing candidates who want to be placed in particular jobs. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that a very valuable technique of handling interviews has been developed in the Army, in connection with the Army Selection Boards, and much can be learned from them. Their men or methods might be used for civilian appointments. I understand that some experiments have already been started by the Ministry in that direction. I regard that as a valuable idea and I hope everything possible will be done to develop experiments on those lines. And generally I want to see the Ministry enlist a widespread co-operative effort in this matter, taking advantage of all the experience which has been gained in the Services during the war. It is a difficult problem to handle, but in handling this emergency problem we may evolve something of great value to the industry of the country in the future. Hitherto the methods of recruitment to the higher appointments in industry generally have in most cases been very much of a haphazard kind. In dealing with this great number of young men who are coming out of the Services and will have to make their first entry into business in their early 20's, if we can develop methods for handling them right and placing them in the right jobs, those methods may be of great value in normal times in the future.

I would like to say a final word on the voluntary agencies. There are a vast number of voluntary agencies formed to help ex-Service men. They represent a great mass of goodwill of immense value. But there is some danger of overlapping and duplication. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that the co-ordination of the effort of voluntary agencies is a matter which would repay attention, because if their efforts were properly co-ordinated they might cover more cases and be of greater value in each case.

Before I sit down, I would like to sum up what I regard as the main issues. The first point on which I want to lay the greatest possible emphasis is the need for a widespread co-operative effort between the Government and every man of goodwill. The second is the need for the conception of a balanced labour force to meet the national needs, which can be calculated now. The third is the need for a realisation that our emergency will not end with the war. And lastly I would add the need to appreciate the greatness of the opportunity which lies before us.

I have spoken deliberately in matter-of-fact terms, but I do not believe there is any Member of this Committee who can think of this subject without emotion. What fills my mind chiefly is the vision of this wonderful body of men which has been built up in the Services over the past six years, a body of men which is not an army of robots held together by rigid discipline, but a company of free individuals, each exercising his own discretion but all pulling together, so that they have become the finest instrument of physical fitness, skilled craftsmanship, and brave human spirit that the world has ever seen. Here we have a great company in which the leading parts have been played by brilliant stars, a company beside which, as we look back over the glorious pages of our history, the bowmen of Agincourt seem hardly more than a troupe of strolling players on a provincial stage. They have been filled with a great spirit. But now the heroic chapter is ending, and we have to turn back to the humdrum tasks of peace. I pray God that we shall not allow that spirit to fade away like an empty dream; let us keep it alive to carry us through the next stage of our national adventure.

4.0 p.m.

It is no inconsiderable temptation to me to follow the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster) into the very wide field which he has opened to us, but I feel that the best way in which we can help the Minister of Labour, who has come here specially to listen to the views of this Committee upon this huge problem, is to enable him to hear as many speeches, ideas and suggestions as possible. For that reason I shall be as economical as I can with the time of the Committee. I desire to confine myself to one aspect of this problem only, the demobilisation scheme for his Majesty's Forces. Whatever criticisms can be, and undoubtedly will be, made of that scheme, I think hon. Members, on whatever benches they may sit, will agree upon at least one thing, which is that the scheme shows an improvement out of all recognition upon the mess and muddle to which Servicemen were subjected at the end of the last war.

I would particularly commend the excellent booklet entitled "Release and Resettlement," issued last December to the various Service units, setting forth in a lucid manner where the men stand in the matter. Moreover, I would commend something else which the Government, and the Minister in particular, have done and I hope will continue to do, and that is the way in which they have stood firm and rigid upon the formula, age plus length of service. No doubt hon. Members in other parts of the Committee, like myself, are beginning to find their postbags weighted with applications on behalf of this or that special case, asking for advancement of demobilisation group. The House of Commons must stage something in the nature of a sit-down strike on this matter. With talk of a General Election in the air, it is tempting to endeavour to obtain this or that concession for individuals in one's constituency, but the men themselves have accepted that formula as fair and equitable, and anyone endeavouring to upset it in individual cases is rendering the greatest disservice not only to His Majesty's Government, which is important, but to the men themselves, which is a great deal more important.

The three categories set forth in the booklet, are clear, understandable and wise. "The man who has a job to come back to"—that is easy. "The man whose apprenticeship was not completed or half served"—assistance is to be given to him to complete his training and to take his place in the ranks of industry. "Men who were called up before they had really attained any suitable employment at all"—that is the most difficulty category. They will be enabled when they come out, by Government training, assisted schemes and financed schemes, to make themselves competent, able and willing members of the industrial community. I have seen the working of this scheme from only one angle, the educational and vocational training in the Navy. I am sure the Minister will be encouraged to know with what zeal the Command education officers are throwing themselves into this work and the response which they are already receiving. Only the other day I had the honour of visiting Northern Ireland. On the Sunday morning, the education officer was going round ship after ship, which had come in from Atlantic Patrol, and was broadcasting over the ship's apparatus details of the scheme and inviting volunteers to come to him at the conclusion of his talk. The scheme is being pushed forward well.

Before I pass to the detailed points I desire to raise, there is one thing I must say. We meet in the twilight of the political truce, if we are to believe the newspapers. Perhaps for not very much longer shall we be sitting behind the Minister of Labour. I gather from an utterance of his in the country not long ago that he is eagerly awaiting the opportunity to breathe threatenings and slaughter against the Tory Party. Before he leaves us for the Opposition Front Bench—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I gather that the right hon. Gentleman is contemplating at least a short interval in which to get up steam—for a short or a long sentence, I would like to offer him my most sincere congratulations and appreciation for the excellent and enthusiastic manner in which he has gone into this immense and complex problem.

The detailed point is this: One particular section of the community is in a difficult situation about demobilisation. Large numbers of officers of the Royal Naval Reserve are engaged in the Mercantile Marine during peace time. In many cases those gentlemen have received letters from their employers pointing out that something like one-third of their fleet has been sunk by enemy action and that, in the nature of things, there is no immediate prospect of employment for them upon demobilisation. In some cases they are being advised to continue for as long as possible serving in the Royal Navy. I raised this matter in February of last year, on the Second Reading of the Reinstatement in Civilian Employment Bill, and the reply from the Minister of Labour proved a great encouragement to these gentlemen. I would remind my right hon. Friend of what he then said:

I would now ask the Minister, or his Parliamentary Secretary to whom I gave notice that I would raise this matter, if they can enlarge and elaborate that declaration. For instance, on demobilisation, will these gentlemen receive the pay of the status which they enjoyed before their call-up? Will a master receive the pay of a master, a first mate the pay of a first mate, and so on? No doubt the Minister of Labour will confine his speech to wider issues but I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to say something on this matter at the end of the Debate and I am sure that his remarks will be very greatly appreciated in the Royal Naval Reserve.

The hon. Member for Walsall made a passing reference to the Appointments Branch. I understand from a Parliamentary answer given the other day that certain naval officers are on the staff there to assist in dealing with cases of naval personnel who come before the Appointments Department because they have a knowledge of the men's records and so on. They are there in an advisory capacity. I would like to ask whether those gentlemen are retired officers or whether it is intended to go a little further. I would make one suggestion—and I am not sure whether this suggestion was in the mind of my hon. Friend. During the war a large number of selection boards have been in existence, getting men from the ranks into the O.C.T.U. and the lower deck and so on, with a view to their passing out for officers' courses. Those selection boards have vast experience in the assessment of character, and they can greatly assist the Minister by giving him a picture of the kind of appointment which the applicant has held in the Navy, Army or Air Force.

If promotions from the ranks are now slowing down, owing to the end of the European war, and are likely to slow down still further, I suggest to the Minister that he might do worse than borrow en bloc a selection board or two to assist him at the Ministry. There is excellent precedent for doing so. We were recently informed that a Brigadier and a lady from the A.T.S. were essential for building houses. We accepted what we were told. There is a far stronger case for taking people with actual experience of the job in the way I am now suggesting, and I believe they could give valuable service to the Ministry of Labour.

Those are the only points I desire to raise and I hope I have been as economical with the time as I promised to be. I would only say that, excellent as this scheme is on paper, well thought-out and well-considered, it must inevitably fail without the good will of everybody in this country and of all concerned. I have said before in this House that we cannot cater for good will or public opinion in an Act of Parliament nor can we create good will by coming down and making agreeable speeches. Public opinion in individual localities will be of the greatest importance in the administration of this scheme. Even now, Servicemen will not find it easy to make their way back to civilian life. On VE-plus-one day, I heard an elegant young man in civilian clothing declaiming that the idea that the war had been won by the men in the Forces was "fooey" and that it had been won by those in reserved occupations. That is the sort of thing one may hear. This House much appreciates the work of the rank and file and we must do everything to create the good will which the Serviceman so badly needs. My last word is that we should all give this matter the highest priority in our daily lives.

4.15 p.m.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour must have felt very gratified at the compliments which came from the hon. and gallant Member. It sounded to me very much like a handshaking before "seconds out of the ring." I daresay the Minister felt that the hon. and gallant Member was sincere, as I believe he was, in the compliments he paid. That compliment to the Minister of Labour has been paid on a very much wider scale in this country. I suppose no one has ever ordered people about, and made them do things, sometimes disagreeable things, which they did not want to do, more than the right hon. Gentleman has done, and yet for all his disciplinary actions, I suppose that in this Committee and in the country there is nothing but good will and gratitude towards him, for the great work he has done during this period. For nothing he has done, great as it has been, has that gratitude been better earned than for giving the House of Commons and the country an opportunity of knowing something in advance about the constructive schemes for post-war conditions, and giving us an opportunity of discussing the turn-over from war to peace, as we are doing to-day, in addition to discussing the method of demobilisation. Those of us who remember the years that followed the last war, particularly those of us who were in industrial areas, know only too well what was the cost of lack of forethought following that war. This country reaped bitterness on a colossal scale over the years between the wars, to a great extent because we had not an opportunity such as we have here to-day of considering the situation.

I wish to say a few words about the remarks of the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster), because there is nothing we can say here to-day which is more important than the spirit in which we are to face the events of the future, particularly the spirit in which the industrialists are to face their duties, as well as the spirit in which the workers have to face theirs. It must have been a matter for great satisfaction to the Government, and to the country generally, that the scheme for demobilisation, based upon age and service, has been so well received generally in the Forces. It is true there are certain sections who believe that overseas service and certain other considerations should count, but generally speaking, it is true that the Forces have received the age-and-service principle as the right method. The one thing which the Committee and the troops will be interested to hear, is just when the demobilisation is to begin, following this war, because the one thing that matters to a man when he is away from home, under the conditions under which many of our men—millions of them—have served, is to get home. The way is comparatively clear, so far as they are concerned, as regards the method of coming back into industry. But it is also clear that, in many cases, they will need homes to which to come. Therefore, the Class B proposal is a very good one. It is not quite so clear—and we shall be obliged to the right hon. Gentleman if he will tell us—what is to be the method of turning over the workers in munitions to peacetime work. I hope he will give us some idea of what practical proposals the Government have, for guiding them back and getting under way the production of the things we need to-day, and have needed so badly for many years.

I received this morning from the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) a leaflet. He is here to-day, and I understand he is to put forward his proposals for certain preferences for ex-Service men. I am dealing with this matter in the early stages, because I have something to say about industry later. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has, of course, rendered great service to the ex-Service man in his time, but some of us have not been idle in these matters, and many people of all parties have given more than their leisure time to this question. I have had the privilege, along with some of my colleagues, of seeing something of the conditions under which Service men have been living during these past few years. Nobody who has seen the Service man, and who understands the kind of life he has been leading, as well as the deprivation of human comforts and human associations, can speak upon any problem affecting those men without great thought. But I must say I am sorry that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has raised this matter of preference for ex-Service men. In our hearts we would do anything we could to ease, or to better his—or her—lot. But we must remember that this has been a totalitarian war, and that a great mass of the people in this country have been in the fighting line for years.

I understand that what the hon. and gallant Gentleman wants is a special register, so that ex-Service men would have preference in the case of jobs, that is those who have not been trained under some of the schemes and found jobs in the ordinary way. That would surely be unjust in the case, say, of a wife who had lost her husband, or a man who had lost his sons in this war, or those who have lost members of their household in heavy bombing. I speak with some feeling upon this matter. Millions have been bombed, of course. So was I, here, and on several occasions in the North. I speak as one who has suffered personally, in my own home, and I can imagine what would be the feelings of the bombed-out, for instance, and those who have lost members of their households, if they were suddenly to find that they were counted only second-rate in the granting of jobs.

But I will be quite frank with the Committee. I do not like it for a more fundamental reason than that. I do not like to see a nation divided in that way. It is a very grave mistake, and I am speaking with some knowledge upon this subject. I am afraid of it and I and my friends will take any consequences of the decision which we have made about it. We regard this as a subtle distinction that grows and grows. It was practised on a great scale throughout Europe, and I am not so sure that it was not largely responsible for the domination of militarism in Europe ultimately. Have those responsible for this proposal so early lost faith in the possibility of our doing things, in the years to come, in the spirit and on the scale of the last five years? This is defeatism on a big scale. I thought the hon. Gentleman's spirit was one of pessimism. The assumption is that there is going to be no full employment.

I remember, in Italy and in the Desert, talking to men on these matters; I will say this for the Service authorities, while I can criticise their shortcomings as much as anybody, that I think they have done a grand job in welfare and education generally, under great difficulties, during this war. Masses of the men have read these White Papers. The assumption behind this proposal which I am discussing, and behind a lot of the articles we read to-day, yes, and behind some of the political speeches too, is that the White Papers have been all nonsense. I warn the Committee that these men have been watching these things very closely, and it will be an ill day for this land, if the general idea is conveyed to the men that in advance we count these White Papers as just so much waste paper. I know there are difficulties. We have had examples already. A statement by the T.U.C. says: wanted to go into the Forces. These people have rendered very great service to the country. All I ask is that in this Debate, which means so much, not only to Servicemen but to the mass of the people in industry, we shall face the conditions of peace in the same spirit as we showed when we went from peace to war, and when we did more for the nation in three months than had been done in the previous six years.

4.35 p.m.

I ventured to say, in a public place, the other day that

The trade unionists and their leaders have rendered a very great service to this land. Without their long experience and organisation of vast numbers of men helping us along this road, we could not have travelled it so well. I am not one who emphasises that very small number of strikes and that small amount of ca'canny, nor am I one who emphasises that the majority of trade unionists were near their own homes throughout the war and that, with notable and brave exceptions, they were more or less out of danger. What I do emphasise is that, with good will, under the right hon. Gentleman's guidance, 25,000,000 of these people, trade unionists and others, worked hard, worked overtime, worked Sundays, and helped us through our troubles to victory. That is what I like to emphasise. I am told that some of the unions, notably those where high skill is required, have made concessions after discussions with the right hon. Gentleman, and have agreed to take in limited numbers of returning soldiers, sailors, airmen and women, and to train them in their craft, so that in due time these men and women may become skilled workers, instead of being in dead-end or blind-alley jobs. That is excellent. All praise be to members of the trade unions that it should be their wish to bring generously into their ranks the men who have saved our country, and incidentally their unions. But that caters for but a small part of the 5,000,000 men and women in our Armed Forces. I ask what is to happen to them.

My hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. J. Lawson), whose voice I always like to hear, and whose character I admire, speaks of a counsel of despair. He says that we are going to have full employment, so why worry? If we are going to have full employment, why should he worry if I ask for a preference for the men I am interested in? In that case, the matter will never become a cause for dividing the nation. I know, as well as he does, that in the changeover from war to peace there are going to be pockets of unemployment. Everybody who faces the matter realistically must know that. Everyone who reads the White Paper on Full Employment, the labour passages of which, we know, were keenly scrutinised by the right hon. Gentleman before it was published, will see that it is said to be inevitable that the policy of approaching full employment will be a difficult one. The separation of our Government into two sides cannot allow any Minister to escape from the responsibilities that Ministers have borne together—nor will the right hon. Gentleman wish to escape. Anyone who faces reality will know that there is bound to be unemployment in some places.

What are we to do about that so far as the serving men and women are concerned? It seems to me that we have adapted ourselves to a state of affairs in which the nation, by the consent of the people, declares certain priorities. Such-and-such shall go and fight, such-and-such others shall not go and fight. Amongst those who shall not go and fight are found some who do go and fight. Amongst those who stay at home are found some who dodge the column—but not many. My case is not built upon the fraction who dodge the column. It is built upon the fact that it is more hazardous and more essential to fight for your country with arms than to make munitions at home. Also, those who go are out of touch with all the factors that will bring them a good job. They are away for three, four, five or six years, away from the foreman who could commend them to the manager, away from the manager, away from the skill which would make them more easily absorbed. Many of the men in our Forces are technicians, but their technique is of a different kind. Many of the infantrymen, the salt of the earth, are not so skilled technically. What are the instructions given to the labour exchanges now? What do they conceive to be their duty? To supply, when asked, the most suitable men and women for the job. Who are the most suitable? I say, unhesitatingly, that in the long run the sergeant who commanded a tank, and did it with capacity and ability, and showed knowledge and leadership, may well prove to be better than some other fellow who did not. But at the moment of his return, after six years, it cannot be supposed that his skill with a machine is comparable to that of a man who has been with the machine for those six years. If we are to be fair to these men, we have to give them some aid. What kind of aid? The Minister suggests the aid of the trade unions for every man and woman, and says they will be taught, and, after being taught, will be given full trade union rights, perhaps, with less time for qualification than is normal. Excellent, but he himself has admitted the principle of preference in doing that.

Why should one young man be able to enter a skilled craft and obtain the advantage of full union membership without going through some apprenticeship term before he becomes a journeyman, like everybody else? Because he served in the Armed Forces. That is the right hon. Gentleman's reply, so he has given a preference, and the unions are giving a preference, in the way of special aid to these men, for no other reason than that they have been away and need that help to come back. I say that, where that is not being done, where it is not applicable in the great majority of these 5,000,000 cases, some other kind of preference has to be given.

What kind of preference? I do not ask that no man who did not serve with a rifle or in the Armed Forces should ever get a job as long as there is no full employment. I do not ask for that; that would be ridiculous. I do not ask for a permanent preference. I do not ask for a preference which would be absolute and invariable. I ask for just the same kind of preference as the right hon. Gentleman devised himself in the Disabled Persons Act—under a little pressure from the House of Commons, it will be remembered. It is one that will be used in the discretion of the Minister, and will confer a discretion upon labour exchanges. As a matter of fact, it is a constitutional question of some interest whether, without some instructions from the Minister, based upon instructions from the House of Commons, an officer of a labour exchange would be acting ultra vires if he favoured one person above another. I would like the Minister's answer to that question when he replies, because, even if he would—and I suspect that he would—he cannot, in any circumstances, take into account the special needs of the man who has been away for five or six years. He has to put first in the queue the man most fitted for the job at the moment. We need to say to the Minister of Labour, "You must give a preference where it is needed," you should instruct your labour exchanges to do it." May I remind the Committee that we had this preference last time, but that we have not yet been told that we are to have it this time? There is a preference under the Disabled Persons Act. That is Point No. 1. Point No. 2 is that we had a preference for the fit ex-Service man last time, and we have not got it this time. Point No. 3 is that, without a preference, it is doubtful whether the labour exchanges can deal with these difficult cases. That brings me on to the question of how this thing can be carried out. First, you must obviously know who the ex-Service men are, and that means you must have a separate register. The Minister will tell us, as he has done before, that it is possible for his officers to know which are ex-Servicemen in the register, because their previous occupations are listed on the card. The card will say that, previously, the man was of such-and-such an occupation, or that he was an artilleryman. It may even be that his regiment is named on the card, but that is not a separate register.

A separate register can only mean one of two things; either a physically separate register, a separate set of cards in a separate box, so that the clerks can go to the ex-Servicemen's register or the civilian register, or, if the registration is done by those card-sorting machines, which can pick out all sorts of variations and combinations, there must be a separate hole cut in the card for ex-Servicemen. That, mechanically, would be a separate register. Without that, no employer can be served with the names of ex-Servicemen, if he asks for them, unless the clerks go through tens of thousands of cards every time. Without that, the House of Commons could never know how many ex-Servicemen are employed and how many are not. Therefore, it seems to me that we must insist upon the right hon. Gentleman satisfying us that he is going to create a separate register, or its equivalent. The right hon. Gentleman will say—and it was foreshadowed by the hon. Gentleman who preceded me—that you are distinguishing between these two classes of people. Yes, indeed, I am, just as the right hon. Gentleman is, when he gives a special entry to the man who has been away from his trade union. I am saying that the men just about to come back should be given a special chance to return to work.

Let me cite one or two cases, as the hon. Gentleman opposite produced his examples. Supposing a young man comes back, and, under the Reinstatement Act, goes into a job, and the employer does the best he can, as, I think, the majority will. Let us say that this boy, before the war, was in a very simple job at the age of 19. He is now 24 or 25 and comes back to this job. In a month's time it is quite clear that the change in temperament and character which has taken place as between this man and others in the shop, and, perhaps, as the very result of his war service and the fact that he has been away and they have not, make it impossible for him to stay there. His 56 days' pay is running out. He goes to the labour exchange and asks for a job. Where is he to be put in the list for the vacancies that are occurring—at the top, the middle, or the bottom, or is he just to take his chance of haphazard, because the circumstances of his case need no special consideration? I say that, in those circumstances, he should be put at the head of the queue. That is my case, and, in order that he may be put there, you have got to register him separately, so that you know that he is there.

Do I understand my hon. and gallant Friend to say that, after the name has been put at the top of the list, the employer should be compelled to engage him and retain him?

No, I did not say that. You cannot compel employment, not with satisfaction to either employer or employee. It must be a matter of understanding and agreeable relationship, but there is a great desire on the part of employers to take ex-Servicemen. After the last war, hundreds of thousands were absorbed by voluntary preference, but that voluntary preference has been largely negatived by the regimentation of all our people through the labour exchanges. You cannot get anybody now without going to the labour exchange, which makes it all the more necessary to make up for this voluntary preference by some other kind of preference. That is what I am asking for. You do not force him to take it. You say first, "Here is a chap who has been away five or six years and is coming to the end of his 56 days, and I do not want to see him on the dole." I do not want to see anybody on the dole, but I particularly do not want to see him on the dole. He was at Alamein or Dunkirk, and I do not want to see him on the dole, and, therefore I put him first."

May I interrupt my hon. and gallant Friend? He seems to have omitted to bear in mind that the Reinstatement Act does give to the soldier, every time, that compulsory right, at any rate, to make his application for reinstatement, and the Reinstatement Act only gives that right to the ex-Servicemen and, in a few cases, to the men who have been directed to employment.

That is a very valid point which I have not overlooked, but, since it has been raised, perhaps I may be allowed to comment upon it. There are those who have reinstatement rights, and the one case I cited was that of a boy having that right, who found that it did not work. I made quite clear the point that the boy who had these rights, found that they did not work when he went to the labour exchange, and I asked whether any labour exchange manager would favour him. I think he would. But, actually, a great many of them have not got reinstatement rights, and not all are covered by the Reinstatement Act. I do not want to see class arguments raised in this forthcoming Election or in the House of Commons. I hope very much that we may avoid dividing our people into classes of any kind, because I am sure that, whatever happens in this Election, a great unity of purpose will be needed to finish the war against Japan, rebuild our country and help to rebuild Europe. I am equally sure that you are not going to do justice to the fighting men and women, unless you give them more than an equal chance of getting back into jobs quickly.

My last point is this. So far, I have been talking on equity, fairness and duty to the men and women. Now one last word about the nation. I believe this nation can be rich and prosperous—the nation and all the people in it. I believe we can have great social services and great developments of this and that, but only if the majority of our people, practically all our people, who can work go to work. Those who can work must go to work to maintain the sick and the children, and this is the only way we can have this great better Britain that we talk about. Who, among them all, are the most valuable? In my view, the 5,500,000 young, vigorous, vital, experienced men and women of our Services. Upon them lies the burden of seeing this nation through the next 20 years, more than upon those who stayed behind, because they are fitter, stronger, and are imbued with a feeling that they saved this land, and it is for them, especially, to come back to it and make it a better place. We have, in the nation's interests, to get them back quickly, and I say that, if the Government are unable to do more than tell us that some will be going back with the help of the trade unions, and if they fail to ensure a preference for the others, we shall have to challenge the Government either to-day, if there are enough of my friends in the Committee to make it practicable, or on the most immediate occasion that we can produce. I beg the Minister of Labour, a broad-shouldered and broad-minded man, to give consideration to the points I am putting to him, and to see how far he can go to meet us.

5.0 p.m.

I welcome very much this opportunity of presenting to the Committee the comprehensive plans which we have carefully tried to work out, not for demobilisation, if I may use this phrase with emphasis at this stage, because the war is not finished, but for re-allocation. If the Press and everybody in the country, and the Members of the House, will help us in this difficult transition period, and emphasise the fact that we are re-allocating man-power and that we are not totally demobilising, then, I think we shall get a correct understanding of the scheme at this stage of the war which I have to present to the Committee to-day. If it is dealt with in terms of demobilisation, many men and women in the country will misunderstand the reason why we are keeping certain restrictions and why we are modifying others, and why we are not taking wider steps and treating the subject rather differently.

The whole of the problem which I have to face is a two-stage ending of the same war. In our undertakings given to the United States of America and our other Allies involved with us in the Japanese war we are pledged to see that war through to the bitter end. May I emphasise this point. The reason that the European war has ended first is due to the fact that the late lamented President of the United States of America, and our own Prime Minister, decided in considering the strategy of the war to deal with Germany first. Both partners, together with the Soviet Republics, have carried out that strategy, but the fact that that agreement has resulted in adding to our safety in these islands and has ended the European war first, only intensifies the obligation we have to continue right through to the end. Therefore, what I have to deal with is a re-allocation of man-power due to the fact that certain Services will not require as many men in the same categories for the Far Eastern war as they needed for the European war, and that the character of the munitions and supplies have altered owing to the difference in character of the two wars we have had to face. I see in the Press constant emphasis on demobilisation. They are doing this country untold harm and, indeed, they are making our task very difficult abroad, when they continue to harp as if we now regard the war as being over. If the Committee will follow me through what I am trying to do in this man-power problem on that basis, it will give a clearer comprehension of the immediate problem that I am called upon to solve.

In dealing with this problem, I welcome the better feeling in the country as a whole than that which existed after the last war. I have no criticism to offer as to the actual plans that were made by Lord Addison in his then capacity of Minister of Reconstruction. There was one thing by which he was handicapped more than I have been, namely, that the previous Great War—the Napoleonic War—was 100 years before that time, and there was, therefore, nothing to guide him in the handling of a great problem of this kind. Another thing was that the plan itself, although not on the lines of the present plan, would have been more successful if it had not been for the pressure from all kinds of people and interests butting in and getting all kinds of exceptions, which produced discontent and, unfortunately, mutinies in the Services. The other great advantage that I have as against Lord Addison, is that nobody in the last war had served in a previous war, except a few who had served in the Boer War. I have been dealing with people—and I say this to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser)—in industry in responsible positions on both sides nearly all of whom fought in the last war. Therefore, the whole problem can be approached in rather a different atmosphere.

The third thing I would emphasise at the present moment—hopes still lurk in some breasts and will, I expect, soon disappear—is that at the end of the last war there was an overwhelming number of people in industry—I do not want to say it offensively—who really saw the possibility of a great Elysium by profiteering and getting rich quickly, so that the whole thing got entirely out of hand. I am merely stating the fact as it was. On this occasion, if you take the views of responsible people, whether serving in a managerial capacity or in a trade union, or members of the public generally, it seems to me that everybody realises that this kind of war, at this kind of cost and with this kind of upheaval, through which no one can see his way, is going to be a hard road for several years to come before you really see the end of the tunnel, either economically or politically or, I believe, diplomatically. I believe that there is an overwhelming number of people in this country now realising that victory merely means that firing and killing have stopped, but that the problem for which we have to find a solution now is more intensified than ever. Consciousness of those three factors has rather made my task in this field easier than it otherwise would have been. Indeed, the very note of pessimism with which the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster) opened his speech to-day is indicative of what I might call the uncertain trend in the future, both in this field and in many others.

I should like to disclaim pessimism. I am not in the least pessimistic. I said that we have a very difficult problem to face.

The borderline between pessimism and caution is narrow. I always think that the real pessimist very often faces problems much better than the super-optimist. During the past week there have been many tributes paid to the workers and to the soldiers, and I do not want it to be taken amiss on my part if I do not repeat all the congratulations that have been offered. I would, however, like to say this with regard to London and the South-East, which has a bearing on what I shall say in reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Lonsdale later. London and the South-East have been in the Front Line for over two and a half years out of the total five years of war. During the last attack by V1 and V2 the most astonishing thing was the low absenteeism from the factories in this area on the part of the workers. Little girls, clerks, women and men, whose homes were wrecked, turned up at their job next day in a most amazing manner, and I cannot find adequate words to express the gratitude of the nation. That has not been mentioned in the tributes—I think that everything else has—and I do not think that it ought to be overlooked.

I was referring to the boys and girls, and to young and old: all in this great area made a most amazing response. Notwithstanding all the difficulties they passed through, and the evacuation from London of so many people, the production kept up at one of the highest points in the whole country during that difficult period, in which so much was involved in supplying equipment. London is still the greatest engineering centre of the world, but people do not seem to realise it, and it is still one of the greatest manufacturing centres in the world. I often ask people not to confuse Piccadilly with London.

I was glad to hear the hon. and gallant Member for Holderness (Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite) emphasise that we ought to make no departure from the scheme as announced. I can assure the Committee that the Government have no intention of departing from the scheme. I used the phrase "The unknown man" in the House the other week in response to a Question. This matter is very important. We concern ourselves with the man who writes to us or the man who goes to the local parson or somebody else to get hold of us, but he represents a very small minority. The great upheavals nearly always come about when people of whom you have never heard get "fed-up." I think that that is the right phrase.

I do not think that "browned off" is the right phrase, but "fed-up." The man I always respect in my public life is the man who never tries to "pull the wires," the honest-to-God man, who, if he says anything to you, says it in his own language which you understand. It is that body of men who, if this thing goes wrong, will mutiny, or will upset things or cause a disturbance. I want a man to feel that, while he will not stoop to any methods of getting hold of somebody, his case is looked after and he will be treated fairly and properly.

Everybody has been waiting to know when this thing will start. There was a leakage in the Press the other day which was pretty accurate. I do not know how they got it, but, so far as the Army is concerned, releases will start on 18th June and will proceed by release groups over fortnightly periods. In this release scheme, every arrangement has been made—and I would emphasise this: it has had to be worked out with very great care—to include men from all theatres of war, including Burma, in the first release group which will start being released on this date. The object is to transport the men in the group back from the Far East, from Europe to be included with those at home, and to release them at the same time. I think the Committee will agree that that is an attempt, in the sorting out of the Forces, to give satisfaction and to ensure that because of the long distance they are away they are not handicapped. Between 18th June and the end of August we shall commence to release groups 1 to 11. Releases from the Navy and the Royal Air Force will start on 18th June, and this applies equally to both the men and the women's Forces.

I shall be asked, I have no doubt, how many will be released. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I thought that; I am a mind reader. Well, I cannot give the Committee an accurate figure of the numbers which will be released, because I do not know at present how many in these release groups will volunteer to remain in the Services. We know a good many will volunteer for occupation purposes, and we are giving them an opportunity to do that. Therefore, I cannot tell. The other thing one has to be careful about in promising numbers is precisely what will be our future commitments. We shall, as I have said, in doing this do nothing that will prevent our full weight being brought to bear on Japan and we shall have to maintain our Forces in Europe for some time. You cannot begin to dissolve these great Armies until you have begun to sort things out and know where you are—

Just one moment. What the hon. and gallant Gentleman wishes to ask is in this next figure. The best forecast we can make at this moment is that up to the end of the year—I do not place it definitely, so the Committee must not tie me to the figure if it really does not come off—we hope to release something like 750,000.

Groups 1 to 11—no, I beg pardon, I will look at that in a moment. Hon. Members can work it out, they are all experts. If circumstances change, this figure, of course, may have to be revised, but I am giving it to the Committee as far as we can calculate it at the moment.

No, I think it is two lots in the 750,000. I do not regard Class B as being released in the sense of Class A. I will check that in a moment, but I think the 750,000 is Class A, if the hon. Gentleman presses me. I am now advised it is both. Another warning I want to utter about the 750,000 is that if circumstances arise, the rate of release may have to be slowed down. I want to be careful what I say, because the troops will rely on this. We have budgeted on this, but it depends on the circumstances in Europe, and so on, whether we can actually stick to this figure. Subject to that, we are aiming for 750,000 up to the end of the year.

The original intention, when we first reported this scheme to the House, was that there would be a standstill period of three months from VE Day. We reexamined our plans and the Committee will be interested to know that, by various devices and some anticipation, we have brought it down to six weeks. Bringing it down to six weeks speeds it up over the year by making it six weeks earlier all the time right up to the end of the year. The majority of these 750,000 will be from the Army. The releases from the different Services will differ, and that is due to the fact that in the Far Eastern war, the Navy and the Royal Air Force have special responsibilities assigned to them; it will be so greatly a naval and an air war. The other factor is that the releases from the Navy and the Royal Air Force will depend to some extent upon the rate at which the various technical branches which can be reduced.

That, in a few words, indicates the releases and the numbers and the speed with which we think we can carry them out. The scheme itself, as speakers have all mentioned to-day, has been accepted by the Forces as fair, and I do beg of everybody to stick to the booklet or official information on this matter. I repeat, I do not want to shake the confidence of the men in any way, and if people have assignments to write for newspapers, or anything of that kind—I say this with emphasis—if they want information, accurate information, they can get it from the Director-General of Manpower. I would rather go to any trouble so that people writing on the subject should write what is accurate, than mislead the men by inaccurate and imaginative statements. I am saying this with all kindness. I have had a long experience of handling men and it is fatal to do anything which—I had a case the other day where somebody from the Press rang up my people and said they wanted some information off the record, as background, and that they were not going to use it. And the next day it came out completely distorted. I think that is not playing the game when you are handling millions of men all over the world with whom you cannot get into touch. It is not like being in this country, where you can "have a go" yourself next day and answer them; that is another story, which I enjoy as much as anybody.

The Committee is already aware that men released in Class A will have a minimum of 56 days' resettlement leave and they will not be subsequently withdrawn from whatever job they find in that period. I will repeat that: they will not subsequently be withdrawn from whatever job they find while on leave, but I want to make this clear to the Committee and to them: it does not mean that the men have to float about during the eight weeks. They will not be entitled to unemployment pay, but if they have not a job to go back to, the services of my Department to get them into a job are there and immediately available. We shall welcome them at the employment exchanges or the resettlement offices, and, if they go into work, and draw wages, they will still draw their eight weeks' pay.

The services of the exchanges are immediately available so that in that week or two they will get some sort of preference?

There is no preference in it at all. There will be many more vacancies than there are men to fill them. It had been assumed that the man has to get the job himself and could not go to the labour exchange until the end of the eight weeks. This has nothing to do with preference.

Would the right hon. Gentleman repeat what he has just mentioned—a very important point although only occurring in a small number of cases? He said that the 56 days' pay and allowances would be given to the man as an absolute right and could not be taken into account by any employer in fixing his wages for the first eight weeks. I have had cases brought to my attention where employers have deducted some of that. Will my right hon. Friend say that if cases like that are brought to his attention, he has power to stop the employer doing that?

The man has the right himself; any union will support him to sue for his wages. The employer has no right to take this 56 days' pay into account at all. The 56 days' pay is intended to be something in the nature of a resettlement grant. But it has no relation to gratuities or anything else. It was an attempt to find a way to give a man a chance to look round and get resettled, and, if I may say so, to prevent him from having to take any job the first day he was home because of economic necessity. That was the conception behind it.

May I invite my right hon. Friend to qualify a statement he has made, because the men will read what he says and take it literally and then get into trouble. He says that men will not be disturbed from the jobs they find; that, of course, is subject to the Reinstatement in Civilian Employment Act, is it not?

Yes, it applies to those reinstated under the Act and to those who find new jobs during their leave.

I also wanted to make the point clear that the labour exchange is available, whether the eight weeks are up or not, so that the man will not feel he cannot go there while on leave. They are apt to take these things literally.

Will the man be free to change his job supposing he takes one and finds he does not like it?

He is a free man. He will not be under any direction of any kind except after the eight weeks; he then comes under the rules of the employment exchanges and the insurance benefits like every other citizen. He is in exactly the same category as every other citizen if he goes back to a job after that time.

With regard to Class B. We propose to release up to about 60,000 in the first year, mainly building trade operatives, in order to get housing going. We shall be releasing more in Class A than we calculated originally and that will increase the number available to Class B. The number which will be available in the first six months will be rather higher, and as we have based the releases in Class B on 10 per cent., a larger number than we anticipated originally will be released in the first six months, largely owing to the six weeks speeding up, etc. The 10 per cent. proportion obviously increases the number in Class B. Therefore we have decided that over and above the numbers that we have allocated to building, we shall allow, under Class B, 50 per cent. of the difference to be underground miners. That will be a number of underground miners, in addition to those coming out of Class A. As has already been explained, there will be a certain number of specialists, but they will be very strictly limited. With regard to the "Bevin boys," as they are called, the ballot has been suspended, and I hope it will not be necessary to operate it again. If anyone has any money to put on I hope he will find another avenue for it, and not put it on my numbers.

In the call-up we are going to allow boys still to opt for the mines. There have been 20,000 Bevin boys who have gone into the mines, apart from those who opted, and they have made it possible to up-grade 11,000 miners to the coalface. I think a great injustice has been done to these boys by those who have ridiculed them, or something like that. All I can say is that the coal situation is bad enough, and that if I had not done this it would have been worse. The number of people in the mines at the moment, as against the 720,000 I was asked for, is 717,300. I am not far from the target and in addition there are 18,000 men employed on out-crop coal workings. Although the House was critical of me with regard to the supply of man-power to the mines I think I can claim that I have met the demands which have been made upon me.

It is quite clear that the men released under Class B will have to stick to the jobs they come out for, otherwise they will have to go back to the Forces. [An HON. MEMBER: "For how long?"] Until their demobilisation group comes along. With regard to the call-up for the Forces, the first object is to release older men with long service, to replace men coming out under Class B and to safeguard the numbers released under Class A. In the White Paper I laid down the call-up ages 18 to 27; recently I reduced the age from 35 to 30. In order not to take any risks, notwithstanding what is in the White Paper, I propose to stick to the age 30 until I am quite sure that the position is all right. Women may continue to volunteer for the Auxiliary Forces, and no woman will be called up compulsorily under the National Service Acts.

The decision to conscript women was one of the most difficult decisions I had to take during the war. When I went to my colleagues in the Cabinet on this matter, I was driven to the conclusion that there was no other way in which I could find the men required for the Forces and the personnel necessary for industry. Over 7,500,000 women went into National Service. Originally I calculated that the general average of production would require three women to every two men. I met 1,500 production engineers at the Grosvenor Hotel, in London, when I pointed out to them my great difficulty in meeting the man-power situation and gave them as many detailed figures as I could. Then I met the trade unions at a similar conference, and I asked them to break down their operations to the finest point in order that I could achieve a ratio of one for one. I do not mean equality in skill—do not misunderstand me—but in actual output, and I am glad to say that the steps which were taken gave me the ratio of one for one. I think that ought to be said, because I am grateful for the response that was made on all sides, from managements, production engineers, designers, craftsmen, machine men, and all the rest, all of whom co-operated in that task.

In order to help men released from the Forces I have established resettlement advice bureaux, and those who have seen them will agree that I have tried to make them as bright as possible. I decline to adopt the architectural style of Pentonville for Government offices. I do not think it is a good design. Three hundred and eighty resettlement offices are to be established in our main towns and cities. Many are already open, and many more will be open by 1st June. The staffs have been specially selected and trained. The hon. Member for Walsall suggested that I should have advisory committees. Instructions have gone out to the officers to get the assistance of all the agencies they can. I have not laid down the exact form in which they should do it; I have asked them to utilise trade unions, local authorities, voluntary organisations and all those who are interested, because I think it better to let those in charge use their heads as to how this is to be done rather than have them follow an inflexible scheme.

With regard to the booklet on resettlement, explaining the rights of the men—and I am grateful for the way in which it has been received in the House—over 5,000,000 copies will have been distributed to the Forces in a few days' time. Afterwards, copies will be put on sale by the Stationery Office for industry or anyone else to acquire. I thought it was desirable, however, that the Forces should be served first. I was in great difficulty about printing because I was faced with another task, that of providing manpower for the printing of the Election registers—a matter in which many Members of the House are interested at the moment. Further, fifteen specially trained officers from the Ministry of Labour have been sent to the main theatres of the war, including Western Europe, Italy and Burma, to answer and discuss questions on matters described in the booklet. Parties are already working in India, the Middle East, the South-West Pacific, Australia, Canada, and the West Indies. The released members of the Forces will receive at dispersal centres a further pamphlet telling them the steps which they should take at once on re-entering civil life. Here, I may say that the Reinstatement Act, which came into force on 1st August, 1944, is working very smoothly, as experience has shown. I really believe that there will be very few cases to go to the reinstatement committees.

When a man has been a prisoner of war and is discharged from the Army, do his reinstatement rights still apply?

Yes, reinstatement rights go back to May, 1939, and cover Territorials and other fighting personnel who went into the Forces at that time. I urge everybody not to interpret the Act as giving to the man the minimum which the law allows. The Act is a safeguard against people likely to be bad or not willing to fulfil their obligations, but we want everybody to feel that they ought to go further than their legal obligations. Leaflets are also available for employers and Service men and women explaining the provisions of the Act, and a special leaflet, together with a form of application for reinstatement, will be issued to all men and women on release from the Forces.

Now may I turn to one of the more difficult, yet more constructive, sides of this task, to which some speakers have already referred? The Government recognise the gap which has been created in the lives of these men and women. It is a gap which varies in degree. For some, training in the Services has been a benefit, for others their duties have meant a complete cut-away from their civil profession or calling. Our main plan in dealing with this problem is training. Schemes for both disabled and able-bodied persons have been worked out in full consultation with the representative organisations of employers and workpeople in about 30 different industries, of which the most important are building, civil engineering, agriculture, boot and shoe making, furniture, plastics, pottery, and tailoring. Consultations are also going on with 30 other industries at the moment. I want to correct an impression created by the hon. and gallant Member for the Lonsdale division. This has no bearing on kindness on the part of the trade unions. We have not approached the matter on that basis. We have said to an industry, "Here is an obligation to undertake, and we want to work out with you a training scheme." This is not a preference scheme at all, and I thought it was rather descending to a very low level, after my previous discussion with the hon. and gallant Gentleman, that he should use it as an argument about preference—

Does not the right hon. Gentleman remember that I took the trouble privately to inform him when I saw him in his car in St. Stephen's Yard, four days ago, that I would make this point? He cannot pretend that I surprised him, because I told him of it on VE Day.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman remember that he had lunch with me that day?

Yes, and I remember that the other gentleman said, "Bring me the Bill." I do not think there was any reference to the fact that this training was going to be regarded as preferential to ex-Service men. Some of the training will go on for those in munitions work as well. I have had to take thousands of women away from their normal professions, and I cannot deny to them the right of retraining in order to put them back into their proper positions. When one considers the trades and callings of many of the womenfolk as well as the men whom I have had to call up, when one considers, for instance, the "Bevin boys" in the mines, who were taken straight from school to be retained in the mines until their time to be released comes, can I then say that I will not give them training so that they can go back into the professions they would normally have followed? It is absolutely impossible.

The right hon. Gentleman will remember that he does make this distinction in connection with education. On page 6 of the White Paper, he says:

"Young people returning from the Forces have the first claim to resume their education, which must be safeguarded."

If the distinction can be made there, why not in the other cases?

There have been a great many arrangements in the field of education for people in many callings to take part-time tuition while the war was going on, whereas the people who have been at the front have had no chance. In this matter I do not think there is any analogy. What I am talking about now is training in trades. In the building trade we have to build up a labour force of 1,250,000. I have limited the number of ex-Servicemen only within the total numbers which the State has laid down as necessary to run the trade. The limits will be the numbers that can be employed in the calling. I do not know how many builders I shall get back from the war or back from industry; I do not know how many have been killed or wounded, or are incapable of taking on the job. In this case the men will get six months training paid for by the Government, four months at a centre, two months on the job. They will then be passed out to an employer of one kind or another, there will then be special supervision and special training—which does not apply in the ordinary case of apprentices—and at the end of 20 months they will be passed out as full journeymen. I am indebted to the industry for undertaking this special training to try to narrow the gap created by the war.

If when you have got all this going and a man is "putting his back into it" as a craftsman, if after you have trained him and admitted him to the trade, you then give him a permanent preference, I am afraid you will do what was done at the end of the last war—you will knock the bottom out of the training and cause trouble between the two sets of men. There are plenty of hon. Members who are accustomed to managing works, and they will know that I am stating not theory but actual facts. I want to maintain good will. That is the essential thing. I give place to nobody, whatever may be said politically or otherwise, in my intense desire to get these men back into industry properly, and I will make this declaration, that whether I remain in the House or not, or in the Government or not, I will stand by these schemes in every way I can to see that they are carried through, or to see that any Government occupying this Bench live up to what I have said, and I will be a bit of a nuisance if they do not. There is training for agriculture at universities, agricultural colleges, farm institutes, and on farms.

There are 17 Government Training Centres providing 5,300 places at our disposal at the moment. During the war we trained 350,000 in the Government Training Centres alone, and at the present time there are 2,100 disabled persons being trained in non-engineering trades, or for non-war training purposes. We are bringing the total number of training centres at the moment up to 33 for building and 20 for trades other than building. But whatever the Government do at their own centres is bound to be limited.

The real place for training is in industry itself. Therefore, I decided nearly two years ago to develop a scheme for training within industry. The object of the scheme was to develop the skill of the supervisor—from a chargehand to a senior executive—with a view to increasing the general efficiency of industry. On that footing I borrowed one of His Majesty's inspectors from the Ministry of Education and sent him to America to study their training-within-industry methods. The scheme deals with skill in instructing, skill in handling workers, skill in improving methods. This training will not be limited by trade union membership at all. It covers the whole range of training over the industries of the country; but here again, I have got to get the good will of the person who has to train the other person, the ex-soldier; and I am very anxious not to put them in conflict with one another. The object of the scheme is to teach supervisors how to teach, workpeople their jobs. Any amount of these people are good craftsmen but they cannot teach, and therefore, we are trying to get this over and make a great success of it. It may interest hon. Members to know that to-morrow morning I am meeting a deputation for the purpose of seeing how to extend the scheme and retain the man who has been kindly lent to us. The number of industries that have welcomed this development is surprising. I provide the services of trainers to teach the supervisors, and in large firms one of the staff is trained by the Ministry in this work so that he can carry on the training of the other supervisors within the firm's organisation.

The one thing I have set myself to do is to leave as few ex-soldiers as possible general labourers. This country must never again, for its own sheer defence, let the training of skilled personnel fall to the level which it did in 1939.

My right hon. Friend mentioned an individual who was sent to the United States for training. Will he at his meeting to-morrow morning represent the very strong views of a great number of people in industry, some of whom are represented in the House, that that individual ought to be left with him and not taken away?

I will note that. There is the further training and education scheme. That scheme has been in limited operation since 1943. It will come into full operation in the next few weeks. This is such a vast subject that I cannot go into every detail, and I hope the Committee will forgive me if I do not elaborate every point, but I think it has been so well dealt with in the booklet that hon. Members will be conversant with it.

The Appointments Department has been referred to. I regard the establishment of this Department and the almost universal acceptance of it as a great step on the road to dealing with the professional classes and the people of higher technical training who either come out of the education and training schemes, or have higher qualifications. I have established a Careers Research Section which will collect full information about the various professions and the prospects of employment and advancement in them, and as time goes on it will be their duty, under the man-power budget, to be acquainted with all the developments that are impending in industry so that we shall be training people for something with a future and not for a thing that is dying out.

Is my right hon. Friend in a position yet to issue the booklet that has been prepared on the various professions?

Will my right hon. Friend say a word about what he is doing with regard to apprentices whose apprenticeship has been interrupted?

The booklets are nearly ready. I will deal with the other point in a moment. There will be a register of opportunities of employment. All the important firms in the country are being consulted, so that we may identify posts likely to be suitable for young ex-Service-men and women with a good educational background but no previous business experience; we want to bring the two together. The Newson-Smith Committee which I have appointed will soon be reporting on the subject of suitable courses for business training. The Appointments Department, the register of opportunities, and the training, all fit in together.

I have had great difficulty with regard to ex-Regular officers. They present a problem. We have established a national register for ex-Regular officers through the Appointments Office, and we have been, either by retraining or by advice, getting them into jobs, and I have received many tributes both from them and from employers on the way my officers have handled that problem. On the subject of interrupted apprenticeships, which my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) mentioned, the scheme provides for assistance to men and women whose training for skilled occupations has been interrupted by war service to complete their training and qualify as skilled workers on their return to civil employment. They will be completely trained either by returning to their previous employer or by taking intensive courses. In either case the unexpired period of apprenticeship will be reduced by not less than one-third, and during the period of renewed apprenticeship, the apprentice will receive wages not less than ten-twelfths of the journeyman's rate in the first half and not less than eleven-twelfths the rate in the second half.

The resettlement grants are intended to help the person who wants to get back into business, who has a small business or the disabled man who desires to start one; the maximum amount is £150.

I have paid great attention to the placing side of my Department. I hope to make it more efficient than it has ever been, and for that reason I want to mention to the Committee—because at some future date somebody may say it is too expensive or I have too great a staff—that I do intend to retain the interviewing system. I believe in the long run it is more economical than the old counter system, where they are all in a queue and are not dealt with as they ought to be. This deals with some of the points raised, because by finding out people's qualifications they are able to place them with more knowledge than they can get by just handing out a card, telling them to go to So-and-so, and that is all. With regard to the preference system, I think I have said enough to indicate that it is difficult to isolate this preference business from all the other things that I am proposing. The preference was worked out last time but nothing else, and I thought that very un-saisfactory. It did not work. I think there is a sentimental feeling, possibly a political feeling, about it, but I hope it will not be examined on that footing.

There will always be in employment exchanges a special arrangement to denote which are ex-Servicemen, but I would ask hon. Members to realise the difficulty of employment exchange managers in some parts of the country when they are asked to determine, as between an ex-Serviceman and a man who has been bombed out, which has contributed most to the war. I do not think that is a fair position in which to put officers of my Department. There are 5,000,000 who have been in the Services, but how many have been in the war? I do not say that derogatorily, but some have been home in this country all the time. Some have been in the ground force of the R.A.F. and others have been to all sorts of places. If I could limit this to those who have been at the fighting front I would not argue about it. I am willing to discuss it further with the British Legion and I should like to find a solution of it if I could. But I have to face the problem of men who have been fighting a different war from that of the last occasion. I have met the British Legion, I have tried to see what I can do, but I have to be just. What am I going to say to people in the East End of London? What am I to say to men who have been bombed and have had to go to another part of the country, and to the dockers, who carried on work, with no shelters to go into, day after day and week after week, and the men on the gun sites, while others have been in uniform probably somewhere in the West of England, doing very little? It is a question of comparative degree. You may get men somewhere who are doing very necessary jobs but are running no risks. You get these two classes of men. When you have to put them into employment you put one who has been in uniform and has not been in a very risky place against a fellow who has been lucky enough to have been retained as a civilian.

I think there is another distinction. One has been drawing a much higher wage.

I am not going to argue the difference in the rate of pay. There have been risks taken in London. I am not antagonistic to the Services, Heaven knows, but I see this difficulty. While I am willing to give a special sign on the card, or devise anything to meet the situation, this absolute direction to the officials to do this in all circumstances is carrying matters a bit too far in the light of all the other things. The difference between this situation and the end of the last war is that this time the Government are accepting responsibility, on the authority of this House, for dealing with the problem, and last time it was just a case of demobilisation and the men fending for themselves without our taking very much responsibility for them other than for unemployment pay. I would ask the Committee to look at this very carefully before they support this situation.

Are we anticipating that we are going to have a situation in which there will be more men than jobs? I thought the assumption was that before long we should need men and not jobs.

I want to do justice to those who are arguing this case. They do not argue that, I understand. It is where you get pockets of unemployment, which may or may not arise. But it is not the employment exchange which determines this issue. It is the employers. I am willing to put on the card of every man who has served that he has been a Service man, and he will go to the employer. The employer is the man who decides whether he will engage him, and I cannot go beyond that. I am asked to take this further step that, in addition to that, I shall have a special register and, if men are sent for, I shall go to that register and send an ex-Service man before another. That is where the difficulty is going to arise. The illustration was drawn that a young man comes out, goes back, gets his reinstatement rights and he is temperamentally unsuitable. It is not preference that you want for that man but training, and under my scheme he will go back for an interview and I shall find out from my officers what was wrong, and we shall have to train him for a different kind of job altogether, or get another employer to train him. I cannot speak for a future Government but my intention is that, when a man goes to an employment exchange in the future, he is not to be left for ever standing in a queue. The scheme that I have arranged is that within three weeks of a man signing on, if there is no re-opening up of the factory and nothing doing, they have to call the man in and train him for something else or find other work for him. I hope we are not going to allow an employer again, simply because he chooses to close down a factory, to look out of the window for three or six months and see people outside the door, knowing that they will be there when he wants them. We will not submit to that.

The right hon. Gentleman says he is willing to mark these cards with the fact that a man is an ex-Service man. Will it be possible for the employment exchange to pick those cards out or will they be sorted out? At Camden Town there are 30,000 cards. Will they have to go through the whole 30,000 by hand or will there be machines to sort them out?

Are these cards going to be marked without asking the men, because our experience after the last war was often that service was a disadvantage?

I should like to look into the point whether the men would have objection to it. I do not think they would after this war. With regard to the disabled, the number who have been dealt with during the war is over 300,000. The work of finding employment for them has been easy because of war conditions, and now, with the general understanding as the result of propaganda, I think the task is going to be even easier. As for the severely disabled, I have already announced that I have established a special company to find work for men who cannot be placed in the other industries, and I hope to deal with them by working with all the voluntary associations. There is one important side to the matter. It has been assumed that, when this reallocation of manpower takes place, with the cuts in munitions, manpower will become available, and some people talk as if it is going to be in abundance. I have analysed the position very closely, and the House and the country should be made aware of the situation as I see it. We shall first have the raising of the school leaving age, which takes out one age group. If it is raised to 16, it will take two age groups. We shall, in all probability, have to face for a number of years National Service of some kind, or military training, which will affect another age group. We have to add the tremendous wastage of manpower from industry over the in-take, and that reaches no less a figure than 400,000 a year. This is the result of the strain of the last six years. There are 1,000,000 men over 65 and women over 60 in industry, and the war has naturally taken its toll. There is a reduced number of juveniles available now to go into industry because of the heavy decline in the birthrate between 1922 and 1930. I mention this because, if industry is to be carried on, it will have to pay far more attention to mechanical efficiency, because the manpower will not be available owing to this wastage and other obligations. We cannot put back education and that kind of thing or we shall lose in that field.

In addition to that wastage of 400,000, I must expect married women and women with household responsibilities to leave industry in substantial numbers and return to their homes now that the European war is over. They have done their bit, and it would be wrong to attempt to compel them to remain. I would, however, like to make an appeal to those who can remain. I have analysed the position with regard to clothing, domestic requirements and light engineering pending the time when we can demobilise or re-allocate far more than we can in this six months. There is no possible chance of maintaining our coupons at the present rate unless these women, although I intend to release them from legal obligations, respond to the national call and try to carry on during this difficult period. The production of civilian goods and of all the other things needed, and national recovery itself are in jeopardy if we are to carry on the Japanese war efficiently as well. There is one other branch of women's labour which gives me great anxiety and for which I have done any best under difficult circumstances. That is the nursing profession. We are going to make efforts to get women coming out of the Forces and others to take up nursing training, which we are ready to assist financially, in order to build up a nursing force. Many nurses are wanted urgently for Burma and the Far East.

A word on the transfer of workers to civilian industries. In that case my task is now changed. During the war I had to a very large extent to fight for the Services. I think that I can say without boasting that, in the five years during which I have held office, at no point, after we got going, were the Forces ever short of the numbers allocated by the Cabinet, and at no point has production really fallen down. Now I have a new customer, and, subject to the obligations of the Japanese war, it is my duty now to support the Board of Trade as vigorously as I can and to reverse the process in order to get civilian goods and trade put right. At the present moment planned munition cuts are going on.

We are in mutual agreement. I must confess that, subject to keeping production going, I have been obsessed during the whole of the war with the idea, in order to keep casualties down, which we have succeeded in doing, of not leaving the Services short of the necessary man-power. Now the process is reversed, and we have to try and get industry going. I see a good deal of argument among the public suggesting that the Government have been very slow in the munition cuts. I do not think the Prime Minister would object to my saying this. Last year there was optimism, it was thought that the war would end by Christmas, but I am glad to say that I never indulged in it. It did not end. There was the Runstedt attack; there was the failure to enter Cologne in the autumn of last year; and by all the signs at that time it looked as if the earliest date that we could fix would be the late autumn of this year. If we were lucky enough to finish earlier, we should not be blamed for planning for the longer period. The break-through on the Rhine came much easier than anybody ever imagined it would, and this was followed by the rush into Germany. All this came after the progress from Avranches right up to the line of the Elbe, nearly 1,000 miles, from June last year until May, and the pace was almost incredible. We could see the break coming, and I want to assure the Committee that the Prime Minister and everybody else proceeded to study the new cuts.

The decisions will be ready very shortly, and on them drastic steps will be taken in order to transfer to civilian industries, bearing in mind all the time the Japanese war. There is one point in this connection which is very important, and I believe the hon. Member for Walsall referred to it. We find, particularly in the newer munition industries, that they have got hold of all the good skilled men, and they want to keep them. We cannot, however, re-create civilian industries unless we put back into them the type of craftsmen essential for their recreation. Therefore, the Minister of Labour must select those to be transferred lest he find himself, not so much with less efficiency, but with labour of the wrong type. That is the great difficulty. When you use the term "engineer" you do not always mean the same thing. It means a thousand things if you are going to cover everything. In a factory the engineer on the maintenance side is a different type from the engineer on ordinary production work. We must get that type back if we are to get these industries going, and I ask employers and everybody concerned to join with me in doing it.

No; we think we can do it by mutual arrangement under the Control of Engagement Order. With regard to the relaxation of controls, men over 65 and women over 60 will be allowed to leave their jobs and will not be required to take other work. Women over 50 will be allowed to leave their jobs unless, in any particular case, it is vital for them to remain. I hope employers will not go "sacking" them because I say that. Women over 40 will be no longer called up for interview and required to take employment, unless they have special qualifications that are required for essential work of the highest urgency. Our friends in the House who exhibited such physiological knowledge a year ago when I had to register these women will be glad of that announcement.

Does that mean that women over 50, if they are engaged under the Essential Work Order, will be able to leave?

They will be given permission to leave. Women under 21 will no longer be required to leave home; and they will not be required to go home, either. Women with household responsibilities, whether married or single, will no longer be required to take employment, and, if in employment, they will be allowed to leave. Men and women working away from home for three years or more will be allowed to transfer to work nearer their homes, unless there are strong production reasons to the contrary.

The Order I made compelling employers to notify every termination of an engagement, in order to keep track of everybody during a very tense period, will be cancelled. I would like to announce that, in order to dispense as far as possible with the use of direction under Regulation 58A, a new Control of Engagement Order will be made in the next few days. Under this Order all engagements of men from 18 to 50 and women from 18 to 40, except those in administrative, managerial and executive jobs and certain professional posts, will have to be made through the machinery of the Ministry of Labour. The reason for that is that I cannot get a balanced labour force unless I do it. Unless there is control of the employers engaging in these ranges of ages, I shall have what I had when I first came into office, a shortage of labour, a flood of advertisements and overdoses of people in some industries and none in others. Instead of relying upon prosecutions, I shall rely on the control of the employer as to the numbers he can engage, having regard to the numbers that are in the labour market and to the urgent needs of industries that have to be re-created.

Does that apply to Service personnel during their period of leave following release?

No, it does not. We shall also allow women who wish to join their husbands on release from the Forces to be released by the National Service Officer.

The last point I would like to make is on the question of stability. I have been aiming in industrial policy, as it affects industrial relations, to ensure in the period of the transition and after, a decent stabilised condition. That may affect the action of the Government with regard to the cost of living, but it necessitates the careful handling of the readjustment of the industrial machinery of the country. I saw an article in the "Manchester Guardian" on 11th May which I welcomed very much. It was from the chairman or the president of the Master Cotton Spinners, who acknowledged that the right way to approach the industry was to alter and develop the wage basis and increase the earning standards of everybody in that industry. To that end I am about to open a centre of training for adults in the cotton industry, and they themselves are running experimental factories in order to test those new methods and new wage payments.

What I would ask for is a flexibility of mind on both sides and an element of understanding between the management and the men. The old game of merely stating a case and one side saying "no," in three weeks time is not my conception of negotiation and adjustment. This involves careful responsible examination, and I hope employers will not raise bogeys like managerial functions which have handicapped us so much, because this attempt to draw the line as to where and what you discuss does more to hamper a settlement than anything else, and the more responsibility you can draw into the industrial relations between both sides the better for this transition period. We have on the whole the most highly developed industrial relationship machine in the country.

In the world. In most of the industries it is working pretty well, but I think it still needs to take in all these problems quite unfettered. We, on the part of the Government, do our best to aid with the facts and figures at our disposal in the belief that he who contributes to resettlement on an orderly basis together with a good standard of life, good and efficient production, especially having regard to the figures I have given, will be contributing not only to our own betterment in this country but will set an example to the rest of the world.

The right hon. Gentleman was going to tell us about the age release groups in the Services.

The Minister said special consideration would be given to the release of women with household responsibilities. Will that apply to widows with children? I understand widows with children are being treated as single women.

I crave indulgence for my temerity in catching your eye, Major Milner, immediately after my right hon. Friend has sat down, but I appreciate the opportunity of shining upon this House the effulgence of the personality, which, if I am to believe the Press, moves mountains, although I always understood it was faith. Listening carefully to the Minister the point which has impressed me most was the extreme kindliness and almost geniality which he and his Department have bestowed particularly upon the men and women in the Forces, in working their way carefully through this arduous and difficult problem. The only thing that we have with which to compare the future problem of releasing those who come up in their release groups, is the treatment which the Ministry have given to those who have been released heretofore because of a lowered standard of health and who have been released to industry. In some cases difficulties have been experienced by these men. I am sure the Minister is aware of these difficulties and will use them to some extent as a guide. However, I met only yesterday in a train a man who was wearing his demobilisation suit, and he told me that he had been received with nothing but the greatest courtesy by the Ministry of Labour officials. I feel that that local attitude reflects the attitude which the Minister and the officials in his Department have brought to the whole consideration of this problem.

Listening to other speakers, I feel that a certain amount of defeatism is talked in this House and throughout the country about the attitude of men who are serving, and particularly men who are fighting or who have fought during this war, towards the post-war world, and their relationship with those who happen to have served the country at home in some civilian capacity. I submit that the last thing a serving man wants is any preferential treatment. We believe this is a war in which all the human forces of this country have been mobilised in order to save our nation from extinction. We believe that we should all have equal treatment and equal opportunity, particularly if the Government are to implement their promises of full employment. I have guessed, by inference, that there are in this Committee people who think it will not be possible to have full employment after this war. That is the purest and most extreme defeatism, because if a Government are incapable of ensuring full employment to the people then they have no right to continue to be a Government.

With the exception of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for West Middlesbrough (Air Vice-Marshal Bennett), who followed me into this House about a fortnight later, I am the last Member of this House to have left the Fighting Forces, and I would like to give some of my impressions. The kind of problem which arises from day to day in the minds of men, in whatever release group they happen to be, and whether or not they are going to fight in the Far East, is the same as the problem of the squadron leader to which the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster) referred—the man who left school at 18 in order to fight in the Air Force. Six years later he is a squadron leader, single, with no domestic responsibilities; with—I submit with regret—certain tastes and habits which he has developed during the war and which he did not learn at school. This young man has been living upon an income of £300, £400 or £500 a year practically as pocket money. The Minister is being asked to absorb him into industry. He may represent only a small number of men, but it is a tremendous problem because the political danger is that such a small body of men might be open to seduction from the cause of democracy by some other influences in this country or elsewhere in the world.

The Minister has been asked about, and has given patient and careful attention to, the problem of those people who started apprenticeship and then had their apprenticeship cut short so that they could fight in the war. I know they are being given considerable assistance by the Ministry of Labour to continue and complete the apprenticeship which the war interrupted, but have the Minister and hon. Members of this Committee considered the fact that in that position there are many young men who have no desire to go back to continue their apprenticeships? Is the Minister prepared to train them for alternative occupations? The hon. and gallant Member for Holderness (Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite) referred to experiences that he had had in connection with the educational scheme in the Navy. I submit that somebody in this country has been remiss in the publicising of the E.V.T. scheme as it is known throughout the Services generally. I applaud the statement of my right hon. Friend that it is the intention of the Government to stick to this scheme, but would he please give it more publicity than has been given among the troops? I expect most Members of this Committee have, at some time, either been in the Forces or in a camp. One finds that vital schemes which will affect the whole of the lives of the men are publicised by rather a dry pamphlet, attached by a dirty piece of string to a notice board, with no real publicity and no personal note about it. It depends to a large extent on the good will and direction of the commanding officer whether the men will obtain the full knowledge of these schemes which are for their benefit. I hope the Minister will draw this comment of mine to the attention of the heads of the Service Departments, because, whatever may be the good intentions of Members of the Government and of this Committee, unless that intention by regulation or direction gets right down to commanding officers, the information never gets home to the troops themselves.

My final point—because I am advised by my friends that I should not make my opening speech too long—is this. A little while ago I referred to what I called an atmosphere of defeatism on the part of some hon. Members. In 1940 a new Government was formed under leadership and courage, in order to prosecute this war to the successful termination which we saw a week ago. It was because the leader of that Government declared the bold policy of that Government, in words of courage, that there was not in the country a man or woman who did not follow that lead, and we have won the war in Europe as we are going to win the war in Japan by men and women following a courageous lead. Let us see the same courageous lead in our transition from war to peace. As a serving and fighting man, I am certain that those men and women who followed the Government into war will follow them into the period of reconstruction and peace. The squadron leader may see in this scheme no opportunity for him to maintain his standard of living at £400 or £500 a year, and he and the man who does not want to return and continue with his apprenticeship, may become hostile and anti-social elements in the State, unless the lead from the Government is just as bold, courageous and honest as the lead was in 1940.

I have one final point. There is a whispering among the men in the Forces, a whispering in this country but a slightly louder whispering overseas: "We are prepared to accept the continuation of the direction of labour if the desire, the intention, of directing that labour is to serve the common good." We cannot see how there can be full employment without some control and some direction, and because full employment is so desirable we accept that control, that direction, as being necessary; but please let that direction be applied not only to the men who are coming out of the Fighting Forces to go to work in factory or field, but to those who are going to employ them. If the men who have fought and won the war are to go back under control and under direction they are not prepared to go back and work under a system of completely uncontrolled, monopoly-capitalist exploitation.

6.46 p.m.

It falls to my pleasant lot to follow the hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford (Wing-Commander Millington) and to be the first to congratulate him on his very excellent maiden speech. I am certain that we have all admired his eloquence and the easy manner in which he has spoken, without the assistance, as far as I could see, of any notes. When I remember my own pathetic effort on the first occasion on which I spoke, I would again congratulate him upon the very valuable contribution he has made to this Debate. I am certain that I am expressing the thoughts of everyone when I say that I hope we shall hear him very often in the future. What the Service has temporarily lost, the House of Commons has gained.

May I also welcome the speech of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour which will prove good reading on the whole, and give good cheer to the men in the Services, and to everyone else interested in the problem of resettlement of our men after the war? I apologise to the Minister for interrupting him rather testily, but it is absurd, I suggest, to pretend, as my right hon. Friend did, that there is no distinction between dockers in the East End and the fellows who have fought in the Services. I shall not say that everyone who has been in uniform has been in danger comparable with that of a good many people who remained in London and carried on with their jobs. But we must recognise that all the time one has been receiving a very much higher pay than the other, which must have benefited his family and children. The man in the Forces has given up the right to strike and has put himself under military law. We must admit that there is a distinction which is possibly inevitable, but as far as I can make out from the speech of my right hon. Friend, the benefit of that distinction is to be denied to him in peace, even now that the war with Germany has ended.

I contend that it is a matter of very second rate import what my right hon. Friend will have to say when he goes down to the East End. What we are concerned about is whether we are being as fair as is humanly possible to the men who are coming out of the Services. I believe, in spite of what I have just said, that the vast majority of men and women who joined the Services did so quite unmindful of what actual remuneration happened to come their way. They joined—and I am certain of this—because they wished to serve their country in its hour of need, and if necessary to give their lives, in the same manner as their fathers had done before them. If you ask me what questions seemed to prey on the minds of the men with whom I had the honour to serve for five years, I would say that, first and foremost, was the question how soon they could have a go at the Boche and secondly, when they had finished off the Boche, whether they would get back into their jobs, or whether all the jobs would be taken by those who had stayed behind, or would continue to be filled by the many women whom my right hon. Friend enlisted into industry, owing to the exigencies of war.

The British soldier—I do not want to be discouraging to hon. Members opposite —is conservative-minded, inasmuch as he accepts with a certain feeling, possibly of inevitability, the long-standing British tradition governing remuneration in wartime, the principle that the further you are from the firing fine, the higher your rate of pay. The infantryman to-day is, as he was in the days of Marlborough and throughout our history, the lowest-paid man on the Government pay roll. As we proceed back from him to divisional headquarters, corps headquarters, rear headquarters and the War Office and then out into civilian life in this country, we find the pay rising in a steady crescendo, and reaching its full forte many hundreds of miles, perhaps many thousands of miles, behind any scene of warlike, or even of hazardous, activity. No doubt as a result of nurturing this rather peculiar tradition for generations past, the British soldier recognises it as a fact. It is to his eternal honour that I never once heard him complain of his lot or in any way grudge one penny of what his brothers and sisters were receiving back at home. Nevertheless, the British soldier does demand, as he has a right to demand, that, having been placed in an unfavourable financial position during the war, he should, when he gets back home, have a remunerative and secure job as far as that is humanly possible, and that he should not be in any way at a disadvantage compared with those who stayed behind.

For those reasons alone I congratulate my right hon. Friend, on what does appear to be a very genuine and painstaking attempt to tackle this problem. Perhaps I might also be allowed to offer him my congratulations on what I consider the wholly admirable booklet which his Department issued on the subject. Possibly I am one of the simpler-minded Members of this Committee, but it was a real pleasure to come across a Government publication the language and the full implication of which I could fully understand. I am sure it will be of very real assistance to those who study it, when they are about to leave the Services.

There is one important omission from this publication. I have read it fairly carefully, but I see no mention of any grant to be made available to men who wish to settle or work on the land. There are many men who will wish to return to the land once again when they come out, and many men who have been living an outdoor life would sooner take a farm of their own or work on the land than return to a town. The prime responsibility for settling and maintaining a man on the land, rests fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the Minister of Agriculture. Any help which the Minister of Labour may give in this respect will be in vain, unless we have an agricultural policy which will enable people to make a livelihood off the land. The Minister of Labour has a certain responsibility to press on with rural housing so that there will be decent accommodation for people who want to go back to the land.

If we are to avoid the disaster which overtook those who settled on the land after the last war, the Minister of Labour must give the best advice and training to the men, before they are thrown on the mercy of the county war agricultural executive committees. He has a duty to give them advice and assistance about the purchase of farms or small holdings. There might very well be a time of partial inflation after the war, when men may be asked to buy land at the very top of the market. Unless we are careful and give them the best advice, we shall find, as we found after the last war, that ex-Service-men have put a millstone around their necks for many years to come.

I do not want to anticipate a Question which I believe is to be asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson) on Thursday, but I should like to refer to the question of the one-man business. I understand that we must stick to the demobilisation scheme if we are to be fair, but we ought to see whether we can do something to help this class of individual. I understand that some assistance will be given under chapter 7 of the pamphlet. The men may have a grant up to a maximum of £150 to enable them to re-open or to re-equip their businesses, and, in certain circumstances, even to open new businesses, but we should give immediate release to men who closed down their own personal business during the war or whose business is being carried on possibly by infirm parents whose health has deteriorated. There is no compensation for loss of business, as I see the matter. We have an Act of Parliament which puts upon the shoulders of the employer a statutory obligation to reinstate men in their former jobs, but there is no such compulsion as regards customers or clientèle to patronise the business of an ex-Service man.

Let me give an example to show what I mean. In my constituency is a village, where there was one hairdressing shop. That has shut down since the war, and the district has not been served at all. It is the natural wish of everyone that the hairdressing establishment should open again. It is possible that the man will not get out of the Service, in his age group, for a year or two years. Meanwhile someone else may start a business to meet the demand for a hairdresser in this area.

He cannot. Before a new shop can open, it must have a licence, and licences are refused in cases which compete with an absent ex-Service-man.

Possibly when my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary replies to this Debate, he will make that quite clear. It is rather hard on the village not to be allowed a hairdresser for four or five years because a man is in the Services. It is really an intolerable situation, which ought to be dealt with one way or another. If we are not to give an early release to proprietors of one-man businesses there should be some compensation for business which is lost.

I would like to ask one question about the B scheme. As I understand it men get release under the B scheme if their release is in the national interest, or to enable some essential work to be carried out. I know a case of a small builder who carried on business on his own account before the war. His business has been shut down since the war. Now, as I understand it, if he elects to come out under B scheme, he may be directed elsewhere than back to his own business. [An HON. MEMBER: "He will be."] It strikes me that he is in a dilemma whether to come out under the Class B scheme, and be directed elsewhere, or whether he had better stay in the Service under the A scheme, take his turn, and go back to his own business. I would be grateful if we could have that question settled.

There is a block release under Class B for building purposes. Those who come out under the block release—I will explain the mechanics of it later—will have to take up the job to which they are directed, it may be with their old employers, or in another part of the country. It depends on needs. There is also an individual specialist scheme, under which individual specialists vital to the life of the nation can get out by means of a sponsoring Department. It might be that the owner of a small building concern would get out under that scheme, through a sponsoring Department of the Ministry of Works. If so he would go back to his old firm.

I thank my hon. Friend for his reply, which I think has cleared up the point. I repeat that I welcome the opportunity we have had in this Debate, because this is a most important subject. I applaud the efforts of my right hon. Friend to try and bring order into this question of re-allocation, as he called it, where chaos existed after the last war. I recognise the sincere effort he is making to do justice to all those who come out of the Services. But may I repeat my view that this Government, and whatever Government follows, regardless of what complexion it may be, will be judged according to the success they have in carrying out any resettlement schemes. The Servicemen and women of this country have willingly given of their best during the past six years without any thought of reward or gain, and those who have been fortunate enough to come safely through demand, and certainly deserve, opportunities and treatment on their return commensurate with the sacrifices they have made and the services they have given to their country. We should see—all of us in this Committee and everyone in the country—that we do not again fail in our duty in this respect. I can only trust that the good work which has been initiated, shall we say, to-day, will be carried on with increasing vigour and increasing success in the future.

7.7 p.m.

The Minister of Labour has been in a very expansive mood to-day. He has not offended anybody, he has not even criticised those of the prophets who, he said, forecast with a good deal of accuracy what he was going to say about the numbers of men and the groups for release. We welcomed the Minister's forthcoming remarks as to what he is to do, at any rate in the case of the early release groups. The Minister has asked for the assistance of the Press. I cannot speak for the Press, but I happen to take part week by week in a column which is devoted mainly to military matters, and I think the Committee will accept it from me that I have a good deal of experience of what large numbers of Servicemen and women and their relations are thinking. That prompts me to offer the Minister a few words of advice. Let the Minister make no mistake. He may call this scheme re-allocation, but the men in the Services mostly call it demobilisation. Whatever the word is it means to them getting out of the Services and getting home. That is what most of them are thinking about.

Although the Services have generally accepted the scheme as it has been drawn, they have reserved judgment as to its-working until they have seen the scheme in operation. The only way in which they can judge whether Group 20 or Group 40 means anything of value to them is to know when Group 20 or Group 40 is due for demobilisation. So far, the Minister has only told us that he hopes to re-allocate, or demobilise, Groups 1 to 11 by the end of August. One thing I found, and I think also my colleagues with whom I went on a trip to Italy earlier in the year all found there, in relation to the Python scheme of repatriation in the R.A.F. and the Army, was that whereas the R.A.F. knew almost to a day when they would be repatriated under that scheme, because they knew the length of service they had to put in before they were eligible to go home—three years in the case of married men, four years in the case of single men—in the Army there was no such feeling of accuracy. The result was that there were hardly any complaints in the R.A.F. about the Python scheme, because men knew that on a certain date they would have completed their tour of service, and would go home. There was considerable discontent in the Army because they did not know within a few months when they would go home. Consequently rumours were rife. Letters were passing backwards and forwards between them and their relatives at home, causing dissatisfaction and discontent among those relatives, because their people abroad had told them that they would be coming home on a certain date and they did not do so on that date, or on any date near it.

The test as to whether this demobilisation scheme will be a success is the speed at which it is worked. There will be demands on the man-power of this country, and the National Service Acts will be kept in operation for some considerable time. I do not relish that at all, and at the appropriate moment I shall do all I can to see that these National Service Acts are removed from the Statute Book. But I recognise that while the war with Japan is on, we must have a measure of conscription. But the Minister must be under no illusion about the feelings of the men in the Services. There are many men who have served for five or six years, who are not in a high release group, and who want to know when they are to get home, and who are writing in their thousands, or their relatives are, something like 20,000 letters a month to the War Office alone, asking when the men can get out. It is good that the Minister has given this definite information that Groups 1 to 11 will be demobilised by the end of August, he hopes. He has also told us he hopes that 750,000 will be released by the end of the year. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us the number of groups in that 750,000 when he winds up this Debate to-day. We are entitled to ask for that, the Minister having disclosed the global figure. The Committee is entitled to a little more information than that.

First, I think the time has arrived when the Government can take the House and the country into their confidence a little more than in the past, as to the size of the Forces now serving with the Colours. I do not think there is any security reason which prohibits that. The war with Germany is over. Probably the largest number of our men will be serving in the Armies of Occupation, not in the Far East. Why cannot the Government tell us something about the size of these Forces? The Government say that they do not know the size of our commitments. They had better make up their minds as soon as possible about those commitments, and what we shall require in man-power to implement those obligations which we shall have to undertake, because it is impossible to keep men serving with the Forces for five, six or perhaps seven years, as it may very well be—some age groups may have to serve as long as that—under the conscription which this country only accepted at the beginning of this war because the enemy was on their doorstep.

There are large forces in America and there are other forces in Holland and France, that must contribute their quota to recovering and liberating the Colonies which belong to them, and while our men can understand very well British Imperial interests, which my hon. Friends opposite are always commenting upon, they do not understand the war in the Far East to the same extent. Many of them write home and say they want to get away from it as soon as they can, whereas in the war against Germany there was a feeling that they must carry right through with it and overcome an evil they recognised and understood.

Whether my hon. Friends will agree with me or not in that assessment about continued conscription the Committee and the Government must agree on this: Unless we operate this demobilisation plan speedily, and bring home large numbers of our men who have borne the burden and heat of the day so long and so well, there is a possibility, to put it no higher, that there will be dissatisfaction among large numbers of our population.

I have advocated the voluntary system in the past. I was myself part of the voluntary system in the last war. Two million men went as volunteers in the first two years of the last war. I believe that if the Government took steps to recruit on a voluntary basis now, at any rate for the R.A.F. and the Navy, they could get all the recruits they want to fulfil their commitments. What are the numbers serving? The Government will not tell us. I hazard a guess that it is roughly 1,000,000 in each Service. The First Lord, in answer to a question of mine, has told us that he has no fear of being unable to man the ships in the Navy after the war, on a voluntary basis of recruitment. I have reason to believe that in the Air Force they could do the same. Why cannot they do it in the Army? You will not get volunteers for the Army unless you offer terms as attractive as those offered by the Navy and the Air Force. I have the interests of the post-war Services at heart. These men will mainly be ex-Servicemen in two or three years. My interest in them has been due to the fact that they were in uniform, but my interest in them will not wane when they are out of uniform. Among these men—old soldiers in length of service, but still comparatively young soldiers—you will get volunteers if you offer the right terms. I suggest that the answer to what the Minister of Labour said to-day, about knowing what our commitments are and the numbers that he will require to fulfil them, is that he will get volunteers if the Government will set their minds to it.

What has been done so far? The Minister said that he could not give an exact indication of the numbers who will be released in the groups—although he hopes to release 750,000—because he did not know the numbers in those groups who were going to volunteer to stay on. I should have thought that the Government would long ago have started making their plans for volunteers. If they are going to be small in number, the Minister surely can give the numbers in the groups. If they are going to be large in number, he will have to increase the number of groups he is going to release. That is what the Servicemen want to know. They do not want to know so much that 500,000 or 750,000 are to be released in a certain time. You have given them what is known in Army circles as the "race card." The "race card" is all right; they are the runners; but they want to know when they start. There is no indication of when a man in a group—and that is all he knows—can expect to be out of it.

The only fault I have to find with the Minister's statement is that it is, like his plan, too tidy and too orderly. In the Services there are large numbers of men who have very hard home troubles. It is no exaggeration to say "large numbers." My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Norfolk (Brigadier Medlicott), who has himself been a welfare officer, will corroborate what I say. These troubles vary. They may be domestic troubles, due to differences between man and wife. They may be financial troubles. They may be business troubles. A number of small business men who have gone into the Services look to ruin in future, because their businesses are steadily declining, and perhaps will decline still further. You allow the civilians over 30 years of age and the returning Class A men to be subject to no restriction, and they can absorb such businesses, perhaps, free enterprise being what it is.

If you like. But they will be displacing many of these small business men who are serving with the Forces, and who depend on those little businesses to keep them going when they come out. I can think of no greater contribution to dissatisfaction than to keep those men in the Forces now for long periods when the war is over, after they have willingly sacrificed their business prospects during the war, and find their businesses going somewhere else. It makes no difference whether a business is going to another free enterprise or to the "Co-op." That does not touch the problem to which I know my hon. Friend is referring; that is quite another matter. The fact remains that you guarantee large numbers of men reinstatement in their jobs, and you have done comparatively nothing for the men who had their little businesses before the war, and who find that there will be very little for them to come home to. They can only be released out of their age groups on compassionate grounds. The longer you keep them in the Forces the more Conservative Members are going to be troubled by their constituents, because I have always understood that Conservative Members claim in the main to represent those small business men. I hope that my hon. Friends opposite will exercise a little pressure on the Government, as I am doing.

The Minister has expressed a wish for assistance from the Press and from hon. Members who can help. We can help a lot, because, although the feeling has not shown itself yet—we have hardly got over VE Day, and the troops have not collected their thoughts together—when the troops do collect their thoughts together, they are going to be very vocal. One thing which is more present in their minds than resettlement plans—although they think a lot about them—is the question, "When am I going to get home?" The Government have to supply the answer. I am sure we are all ready to co-operate. It is in all our interests to co-operate, because these people are our constituents. They are already writing in, as every Members knows from his own postbag. If we are to co-operate, the Government themselves must co-operate. So far as my knowledge of the Press goes, we have had to get our information by devious methods, and not by ringing up the Press officer at the Ministry of Labour—and it is the same with all Government Departments. The Ministries are very secretive. On this matter they should not be secretive, if they are going to keep members of the Forces and their dependants and relatives contented.

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) and I both belong to the House of Commons branch of the British Legion, and he will agree that we have seen eye to eye on most subjects affecting ex-Servicemen. We have helped each other, supplemented each other's efforts in this House; and what I am about, to say is said with all sympathy for his point of view. He would be the first to admit that neither he nor the British Legion has a monopoly of ex-Servicemen's opinions or their rights. The fact remains that the British Legion is probably the largest organisation which specifically caters for ex-Servicemen's needs. My hon. and gallant Friend, being the vice-chairman of that vast organisation, thinks that this is an issue on which the members of the Legion and ex-Servicemen generally feel strongly. I am not at all sure that either he or the Legion is right. I feel that he is dealing with something which should be handled very carefully, if there is any subject which ought to be dealt with dispassionately and without political bias or party prejudice.

We do not know what is in front of us. There may be very disturbed times in future. [ Interruption. ] I suggest to my hon. Friends opposite that they had better treat this matter seriously. There will be party strife, of course; but I am not referring to that. I am referring to something which is going to sweep the Continent of Europe like a plague—the possibility even of revolution. It is incipient in various forms on the Continent. For various reasons, those flames may lick the shores of this country. Therefore, I hope that my hon. and gallant Friend will not dissociate the ex-Serviceman from the civilian. As soon as the Serviceman puts off his uniform, he becomes a civilian. There have been differences during the war, no doubt; disparities in wages and even in conditions of living. But as soon as those men come out they will be comrades in the factory, in the workshop, or on the land, with those who have been in uniform during the war. I have been a Serviceman in two wars, and I know that this issue can be raised in such a form that it will have political repercussions. I know that my hon. and gallant Friend has not raised it to get any party gain out of it whatever. The attitude I took on the Bill for training the disabled, when I urged the Government not to give a preference but to concentrate on training all disabled people, whether from the Services or civilians, did not meet with much success. The Minister, a member of my own party, accepted the point of view of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lonsdale, and rejected the point of view which I put forward, which I believe was the point of view held by most Members of my party.

My hon. and gallant Friend wants work, and good work, for those ex-Servicemen. So do we all. Can it be achieved by the method he suggested? I do not think so. If there is any preference to be given to ex-Servicemen, his own organisation, the British Legion, is a more effective instrument for getting it than any Government direction to local Ministry of Labour offices. Much more can be done by the British Legion, by the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund, and by those other Service funds which have been set up, than by Government action. I urge my hon. and gallant Friend not to divide the Committee on this issue, in view of what the Minister has said this afternoon.

He said that he would put on the man's card the fact that he is an ex-Serviceman and that that ought to be sufficient, and I know, speaking as a small employer myself, or, at least, I was in the days before the blitz, that I would consider very sympathetically an ex-Serviceman's claims. Business, especially big business, is not sympathy. It consists in the main of the employer choosing whom he thinks is the right man for the right job. Therefore, my hon. and gallant Friend should concentrate on urging the Ministry to train these men so that they can go to the employers and get a job, not on the fact that they have served their country during the war, but because they are good workmen and are, therefore, entitled to a job. I believe that, if my hon. and gallant Friend will accept that point of view, he will not force this issue into the Division Lobby, and, if the House will accept the point of view which I have expressed, I think it will do more towards helping these ex-Servicemen than did my hon. and gallant Friend in his speech to-day.

Finally, I ask the Government—because, so far, I have asked in Questions and not received any great sympathy from the Prime Minister—to give the Committee more information on these matters than we have had during the war. We have had very little information about the Fighting Forces, which, obviously, security reasons have prohibited. But this Committee has a responsibility for the Armed Forces of the Crown, and we have been very jealous of our rights in giving the Executive carte blanche, which we did in the National Service Act, to raise the force we needed. I think we should be told what our commitments are, the size of those commitments and the size of the Armed Forces we might need to implement those obligations. If they do that, I think the Minister of Labour, who sometimes has been a little bit severe in his criticisms of his colleagues in the House of Commons, will get all the co-operation he wants and even more. He will get active co-operation, not only in the House, but in the constituencies and amongst our constituents, where we can do more good, or probably, more harm, than by making speeches in this Committee.

7.33 p.m.

I have listened, I think, to every speech in the Debate, and my conclusion is that, while nobody envies the Minister his task, all wish him well. Indeed, I think one guarantee that he will succeed in his new task of demobilising the nation is that he has been so successful in his task of mobilising it. The Minister did give us one piece of information which, I agree with other hon. Members, the men serving in the Forces, and the nation generally, have long been waiting for. When will demobilisation begin? The individual man, however, wants to know when his own particular group is likely to be released, and I hope that he will be told that at the earliest possible moment. Do not let us treat our men in the Services as if they were children, and let us not be afraid to tell them the facts. I believe most strongly that, provided they are given a very definite date, it will help those who would like to get out to stay longer in the Forces. So long as there is some particular date on which they may reasonably expect to be demobilised, it will be a very great source of strength and comfort to them, and it will help the Minister of Labour in his task, because, in spite of what he has told us to-day, it is by no means an easy task that he has to accomplish, and, in view of the decision not to call up men over 30, it is going to be more difficult to persuade men over 30, who have had a long period of service in the Forces, to continue longer. Therefore, I stress the importance of conveying to them this information, which I think we may regard as a message of hope, at the earliest possible moment.

I think there is general agreement that the principle of the scheme is a sound one—age and length of service—although I must enter a caveat in that I always felt and still feel that some account should be taken of overseas service, particularly in the Far East. I am concerned about the percentage, which we have been told to-day, between those released under Scheme A and those under Scheme B—10 per cent. On the figures we were given to-day, it does not seem to me that that percentage is going to provide the important releases that are urgently required within a reasonable time.. On the assumption that there are to be 750,000 men and women released under Scheme A by the end of the year, 75,000 will be released under Scheme B, but, apparently, 60,000 of those are already ear-marked for the building industry.

Well, 60,000 in a year. That makes the position even more unsatisfactory, if I may say so, because those of us who know the urgent need for housing accommodation and the demands on building labour for new schools, if we are going to implement our education programme, would like to see a bigger release of men engaged in the building industry. We are also concerned that so few miners, apparently, are to be released, or will be available for release. We have been told, again and again, by the Minister of Fuel and Power how serious the coal position is likely to be in the winter, and, therefore, I would have liked to have seen a larger proportion of miners made available. Again, the Minister made no mention of release of teachers. How many of these is it anticipated will be released, because, if we are to raise the school-leaving age next April, as has been promised by the Minister and is provided for in the Act—and I think the country would be very much concerned if the raising of the school-leaving age were postponed for another year—a very large number of teachers must be made available. I should like to know how many teachers are provided for under this scheme. Then, we have been talking for a long time about, and many of us are looking forward to, the proposals for a National Health Scheme. If that scheme is ever to be implemented, we shall require to have very many more doctors than are at present available. At present, the training of doctors is held up because a sufficient number of those who could teach in the medical schools are not yet available. Will they, under some special scheme, be released outside this figure that we have been told to-day? Further, during the war and owing to the length of the war, it has been necessary for very many students to cut short their studies, and I think we should be told whether any of them are likely to be released to enable them to continue their studies.

I should like to join with other hon. Members who have made a plea on behalf of the one-man business category. This man has had a very difficult time during the war, and his sacrifice has been a very great one. If the men who own these one-man businesses are likely to be sent to the Far East, it will mean that what those who may have been able during the time of their service hitherto to keep in touch with their businesses somehow will no longer be able to do so. What is the position of employers who are due to reinstate their employees when demobilised but who themselves are still in the Services and are due for release later than their own employees? What is to be their position? If they are still in the Services, obviously, they cannot carry out their undertaking, but, if a limited number of these men could be released, it would help to find employment for very large numbers of men.

I deplore any spirit of defeatism towards our post-war problems. We have been told, and rightly told, I think, that the proper thing to do is to face the post-war problems in the same spirit in which we faced the difficulties of the war, and one important factor which enabled us to overcome those difficulties and win the war was the spirit of national unity. Even if we are, as, obviously, we are, going to have a General Election in the very near future, and if we are to have a party Election, I urge most strongly that it should not degenerate into a mere party dog-fight. The issues at stake in these days are too tremendous for anything like that, and, if we do fight as parties for our particular principles, let us try, at the same time, to preserve the spirit of unity which has been so valuable to us in the war and which I think we need if we are satisfactorily to solve the problems of peace. Indeed, I do not think that in any other way we shall solve them.

I hope we shall not allow the mistakes to be made this time that were made at the end of the last war. Fortunately, there has been far more planning for demobilisation and post-war life this time than there had been last time. I believe, also, we have a far more intelligent electorate to deal with, and I believe that the men and women in the Services have this time a greater sense of the issues at stake and are not likely to be led astray, as many were last time, by catch-cries put forward by people who were not really trying to serve the interests of the people but were trying to see in which way they could profit out of the end of the war and an early return, as they thought, to normal pre-war conditions. I hope the country will show itself proof against propaganda of that sort. This time, anyhow, the promises which have been made must be kept, and that is how I approach this controversy which has been raised about giving a preference in jobs to ex-Service-men. I think that the right thing to do is to insist that there should be employment for all, and I think that the ex-Serviceman should realise that his interest is bound up with the interests of the men who served in the war in another capacity. We have to try, as far as possible, to prevent sectional interests getting control. What we have to realise is that, at the end of this war, we have a great opportunity, and we have to see that we are equal to that opportunity. I believe that a nation which has been able to win this war, in spite of the tremendous difficulties which it had to overcome, can also, given the same spirit of unity and goodwill and desire to achieve success, be equally successful in solving the great problems of peace.

7.45 p.m.

I am grateful to you, Mr. Watson, for calling upon me and to the Committee for permitting me to make this statement. I think that many speakers are living in an illusion and hoping that this issue is not a real one because there is going to be full employment. I do not believe that myself; I do not believe it possible to avoid pockets of unemployment. Nevertheless, with the call for unity and the avoidance of any suggestion that I or my friends in the British Legion are anxious for a party fight—nothing is further from our minds—and coupled with that the undertaking of the Minister of Labour that he would mark the register, I think his words were, "so that it could easily be picked up," and coupled with his statement that he will see the British Legion again, and the appeal from my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger)—in all these circumstances, I have it in mind to postpone this battle until 100 ex-Servicemen belonging to all parties have come into this House in the next Parliament.

7.47 p.m.

I think the Committee will prefer a speech which seeks to raise certain specific points with regard to this wide subject rather than a speech which attempts to cover the whole of its compass. In these circumstances, I wish shortly to bring to the notice of my right hon. Friend certain suggestions in an effort to help him and his colleagues to formulate their plans upon which, let us not forget, so much human happiness depends in the future. That part of the subject with which I want to deal is the first limb, namely, the question of the re-settlement of Service personnel. It is right at the outset to keep in mind the exact meaning of that phrase. It seems to me to mean the restoring to permanent employment of those who are entitled to release from the Armed Forces of the Crown, those who are entitled or who may shortly be entitled under the scheme crystallised in the White Paper of some months ago.

It may sound paradoxical, but my first point is that the first wide field of employment open to those entitled to release is the Armed Forces of the Crown, for, as my right hon. Friend has pointed out, those who are entitled to release may apply to remain in the Forces or indeed to transfer from the Service in which they have served to another branch of His Majesty's Forces. I am well aware that the great majority of serving men will have as their first objective the return to civilian life, but I am equally certain that there are many who appreciate that peacetime soldiering is a great career and will wish to remain in the Forces. I mention that for these reasons. There axe many, and I am one of them, who take the view that it is essential that we should have large forces in the future not only for the purpose of meeting any potential aggressor, but also for the purpose of supporting any international organisation for the preservation of world peace, such as is perhaps being contemplated at San Francisco. Further than that, there must, in my view, continue for some time a measure of compulsion. One has but to consider how monstrous it would be if we could not replace those who have served so long and faithfully, for example, in the Far East, the Middle East and Italy, and for a shorter time on the Continent of Europe, with consequent separation from their families. If they could not be replaced by fresh intake and by others called up for the Forces, there must be for some time a measure of compulsion. But in addition to those who are required to enter the Forces, there should also be encouraged those volunteers I have mentioned—men who are entitled to release but who prefer to remain on. I cannot but mention that over two years ago I suggested to the Government the compilation of a list of those who would be willing to volunteer for the necessary policing and occupying after the cessation of hositilities. I still advocate that, and I feel from my right hon. Friend's observations to-day that the suggestion that volunteers should further be called for will be one which will be acted upon.

Apart from those who may wish to remain, those who will be released and will be required to be resettled fall, in the main, into two categories. The first, and in a great measure the larger, is the category of employed persons, and the second, less in numbers, consists of those with businesses of their own. I want to say a word or two about each of those categories. As to employed persons, I am also able to pay my tribute to the publication which has been issued widely to the Forces for the release and resettlement of families, and I am glad to notice that in that pamphlet there is an explanation of the Reinstatement in Civilian Employment Act of last year, thus making plain the rights of the serving man to secure his old job or employment.

The next point under this head which I wish to make is, that the industry which requires the greatest number of men at the present time is the building industry. For six years there has been no building and for six years the enemy has done its best to destroy such as there is, and thus one finds that the housing problem is the most acute of our domestic problems at the moment. It seems to be nobody's fault except the enemy's, but surely every possible step must be taken to meet it. Of all the problems which are brought to my hon. Friends and myself, this is the most difficult. For myself I am distressed to be unable to offer help or even much hope when people come to me about housing and accommodation questions. Can we not meet that in this way? During our discussion to-day it has been said that under Class B of the release scheme some 50,000 men are to be selected for the building trade. One wonders if that is enough. I have always advocated, and I still do, that there should be no preferences in the matter of priorities for release. This scheme must be worked equally and liberally. The one thing the Service man will not stand is inequality, but here I suggest there is so great a crying need in the matter of building houses that it would be proper to consider the release of much larger numbers for that specific purpose, bearing in mind, as the Minister has said, that it does not amount to a complete release, for they are still directed into the particular jobs which they should do.

I wish also to refer to the question of training. My right hon. Friend has emphasised that of all his plans those which may help both employment and the ex-Service man in later times are the plans for the training of men coming back to civil life. I only want to add a word about that. From my own experience I can say that the troops—and this experience is gained from service with the Second Army, where I was in close touch with the welfare and education branches which are so interested in this matter—are tremendously eager for those plans for training to be widely published and explained to them as soon as possible. I have been somewhat out of touch in the last few months and if something of that kind has been done, no doubt my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will put me right about it, but otherwise I most earnestly urge the widest publication for these training schemes because I know the men to be waiting for them.

And now a word with respect to the other category, that of the people with their own businesses. A great deal has been said during this Debate on that subject and I shall be very brief in my remarks about it. The great majority of people who own their own businesses are the small shopkeepers. There are differences of view as to the value to the community of such persons, but my own view is that they provide an essential service. None can doubt that many of these men have made immense sacrifices during this war. We have all been made aware of cases of men, who having saved a little money and bought a business, and on the outbreak of war volunteered to serve, and served throughout, have lost everything. The question which one asks oneself is, How can we help them? I have three points on this, two of which are suggestions. First of all I respectfully put forward the suggestion that some plan should be devised, if necessary by legislation, to enable these small proprietors of businesses to recover the possession of their business premises. There was a Bill introduced in another place. Its shape I did not agree with entirely, but its purpose I agreed with wholeheartedly, but we have heard no more about it. At the present time, as I understand the law, where there is a dispute to the right to possession of premises, a tribunal decides where the greater hardship lies and has a discretion about it. My point is that if an ex-Serviceman can show that he has, by reason of his service, been forced to part with the possession of his business premises, he should as of right be entitled to recover possession of them. The second suggestion is this: Whether there could be a scheme for loans at cheap rates of interest, I do not know, but I feel certain that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer could provide some tax adjustment which would help those who are resuming their old businesses or setting up new businesses. Lastly, under this head one has welcomed my right hon. Friend's scheme for grants up to £150 for these men with their own businesses. The figure is not very high but it will supplement the slender gratuities which will be received. What I ask is that the plan shall be administered generously to the class of person to whom I have been referring.

Firstly, let us encourage men to go into the Services and to remain in the Services. Such encouragement should be of a concrete nature in the way of pay, allowances and pensions. It should be made known that wives and families can go overseas too, and that there shall be security of tenure and no "axing" after a few years so that a man in middle age is thrown on to the labour market. Secondly, there should be, if possible, released under Class B a much larger number for the building trade to deal with the acute housing shortage. Thirdly, the plans for training should be widely publicised. Lastly, we should give assistance to that section of the community which are the proprietors of small businesses.

8.0 p.m.

As one who is on the point of becoming an ex-Serviceman I have followed the Debate to-day with a special interest and I welcome this opportunity of adding a few brief words of my own. I had intended, and hoped, to be able to say words of unqualified approval of the Minister's speech, and I think that one could have found it possible to approve of all that he intended to say, with the exception of what he said as the result of one interjection. I felt that he tried to prove too much upon this rather difficult question of the relative merits of the man who has served in the Armed Forces and the man who has not. I would venture to suggest that he perhaps did not intend to infer all that his words implied. It cannot be suggested seriously that there is equality of sacrifice or effort between someone who has been working upon the manufacture of munition parts in a remote country district which has perhaps never seen an enemy aircraft, and the men who have fought at Arnhem or the men who have flown on nightly and hazardous journeys over enemy territory.

I do not suppose the Minister intended to infer that there was equality of sacrifice or effort, but that perhaps it was not easy to draw a clear dividing line between them. Nevertheless there is a dividing line and I join with those who say that for certain types of ex-Serviceman—not all types but for those who have fought, and especially for those who have been long separated from their homes, I do hope that even yet the Minister may find it possible to do more than is indicated at present. I would put separation from home as a very real sacrifice and those who have been privileged to work for the war effort without perhaps ever going away from their own fire-sides, I feel sure, would be the first to realise what has been sacrificed by the Service men, and also by the Service women, who have been overseas for terms of three, four and five years. To those of us, I think the majority of us, who have our roots in our homes, that is a very real matter and to suggest that there is no distinction between those who have gone overseas and those who have lived at home is, I think, not facing the facts squarely.

There are many categories of those who have contributed to the war effort and it is not easy to draw clear dividing lines, but as far as Servicemen are concerned, one very clear line can be drawn. That is between those who are able and ready to go back to a job that awaits them, and those who are not in that happy position. Servicemen accept the obvious fairness of the arrangement which has been made, under which those who are in the building trades—the bricklayers, the plasterers, and those engaged in the manufacture of building materials—must obviously come first. There are however large numbers of men, in what one might almost call the middle-class of the Army, for whom it is very difficult to make adequate provision, and I wonder whether we have yet done quite as much as we should have done or perhaps intend to do. The Army is full of what are known in another connection as displaced persons—schoolboys who were called up before even deciding upon a career, young men who have started along what was admittedly a blind-alley occupation knowing that they would be called up—and also a very large number of men in whom new and special qualities have been brought out by their Army service.

That is why those of us who are in the Services do not want to introduce or emphasise any element of controversy as to who has contributed most. The efforts of all have been indispensable, but the point I would make is that this war has brought about the existence of a large class of men and women in the Services whose work we cannot afford to do without. It is not only a question of finding them jobs, it is the fact that the nation needs them. Whilst not attempting to compare the amount of fighting which has been done in this war with what was done in the last—there can be no effectual comparison—both wars have had their terrible proportion of combat—it is true to say that in this war there has been an enormous increase in the amount of organisation and administrative work which has been required—

Will the hon. and gallant Member excuse my interruption? He said, and I agree with him, that the nation needs these men but, if the nation needs them, how can the nation use them unless the nation controls and directs the big industries of this country, so that the nation is in a position to employ them?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for his interjection, but I am not quite sure that he can ask me to try and weave it into the thread of my argument. It seems to me to raise issues which are rather outside the immediate problem facing us.

I have made what I think is a fairly acceptable statement, that the way this war has gone, and the immensely difficult problems of organisation which it has involved, have created a capacity for service and for leadership in our Forces which we cannot afford to neglect. I speak with rather more knowledge of the North-West European campaign than any other, and I know the Committee will forgive me if I point out the fact that the 21st Army Group not only fought their way across Europe, but built their way across Europe. They have had to build bridges, roads, accommodation, and carry supplies and overcome problems of food, stores and administration the like of which have never been met with before in any military campaign. I hope the Government are not overlooking the capacity of the men who have achieved that great task. I can speak without fear or favour on this point as I am now leaving the Army, but I should be failing in my duty if I did not say as a witness that the most incredible feats of organisation have been carried out by the Army and by other Services as well. I hope we shall not make the mistake of assuming that retired officers are only fit to become the secretaries of golf clubs. They have, in fact, Shown an enormous capacity for doing the very kind of task that will lie ahead of us in the days to come.

May I for a moment or two touch on the machinery for bringing men back into contact with employment? I would like to refer to what my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chester (Major Nield) said about the information available to the Services at the present time. My hon. and gallant Friend left us in North-West Europe quite recently, but I was there as late as yesterday, and I can confirm what he says, that there is not yet a sufficient appreciation on the part of the men as to what plans are being made for them. We agree with the Minister that he is not to be criticised on that account, for the Government were preparing for a slightly longer campaign. I do, however, urge him to do all that can be done to catch up with this problem, and to give the men information as to where the first jobs are to be found and the sort of jobs for which it will be worth while studying and training. Also in that connection I would urge the Minister to consider whether he can provide the overseas Forces with some of his resettlement advice offices. I believe that proposal has already been gone into and, I imagine, decided against, but I suggest that it might be given a little further thought. I am glad to know that 15 liaison officers have been sent to military theatres, although I am sorry that North-West Europe is not included—

From my own knowledge of that area I suggest that the mere presence of individual officers will not cover the ground. What are needed are offices and bureaux, considerable in number, the location of which is made well known to the men, and to which they can be sent by their commanding officers. As has been said, it is not enough to tell a man once; it is impossible to settle a man's whole future in one interview. He will need to go back again, possibly after having checked up on the information and also written home to his wife. That is where the travelling liaison officer is of really little use. The static office and bureau, with a suitable staff to which the man can go back, is the only answer to this problem, and I hope the Ministry will be able to make that improvement in the machinery, because the man-power involved would, I suggest, be well worth the effort.

May I also express the hope that the Minister and all his colleagues who have an interest in this matter will encourage local authorities and other public bodies to remember the serving soldier in their advertisements for posts? One sees, with some regret, advertisements framed in such a way, and with such an early closing date for applications, that it is quite impossible for men serving overseas to apply. That is something which ought to be borne in mind by all those who are, or who will be, in a position to offer employment in the near future. I am particularly glad that the Ministry are bearing in mind the importance of agriculture as a field of activity for our ex-Servicemen. They have been used to an open air life, and nothing could be more suitable for many of them who have no desire to go back to the cramped confines of city or town employment. I hope that not only the question of market gardening and small holdings will be considered, but that farming on a bigger scale will be brought within the reach of men in the Services. There is a great field for them there. Agriculture has always been a highly skilled industry, and now that new methods and the use of scientific machinery are the order of the day there are many ex-officers and men who would be a real addition to the forces of the agricultural industry.

One final suggestion I would like to make—and I will do no more than mention it as I might be out of Order if I developed it in detail—is that I hope the prospect of settlement in our Colonies and Dominions will not be overlooked. There was a time when unemployment was so severe that when emigration was suggested one became almost furtive in talking about it because one realised that emigration in those conditions was a policy of defeatism, that although we could not provide employment here it was hardly a worthy suggestion that our people should go elsewhere. But if we are able to provide employment at home then we should also be able to offer our men the alternative of going into the Colonies and Dominions. Many men have made contacts and friendships with men from other parts of the Commonwealth, and I can think of nothing better than that they should have the opportunity of emigrating, and continuing those friendships and contacts and helping to build fife in our Dominions and Colonies.

There is perhaps no leader in this or in any other war who has inspired greater devotion than Field Marshal Montgomery. It is because of three things. First, he has never called upon his men to do any task without adequate preparation, training and equipment. Secondly, he has always explained to his men what he needs of them in the clearest possible language. When one comes away from a conference or lecture by Field Marshal Montgomery here is no doubt in one's mind as to what has to be done. Thirdly, he believes that the men under his command are entitled, whatever their rank or work, to a square deal. Adequate equipment, preparation, and training; clear instructions and a square deal—these have been watchwords of Field Marshal Montgomery. Because of that he has carried his men through in the way which is now so well known to all of us. It is our duty to try and provide the same essentials to the men of the Forces when they return hoine—equipment, training and preparation, clear directions, and a square deal. If we do that, they will respond in the same magnificent way as they have responded during the years of the war.

8.20 p.m.

I think it would be fitting if I began my remarks with a tribute to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. I do not do this in any partisan way, although I am proud to be a member of the same party as my right hon. Friend. Last year I had the privilege of speaking in three other countries, and at that time I declared that in our dark hours in 1940 there was only one man who could rally this nation to do the job of work it had to do. But I think it is right that we should also acknowledge the spendid work that has been done by the Minister of Labour in harnessing the fighting and civilian manpower of the nation to the cause for which we have fought. It has been a monumental task.

At all the meetings I have addressed in my own industrial district, one point of view has often been put to me by the workers. They want to know what is to happen to them after the war. To-day my right hon. Friend has declared in a general way how we are going to use the human resources of the country in the future. I have listened to all the speeches that have been made from the other side of the Committee. I think the earlier speeches were much more mournful than the later ones, and I do not wonder at my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Wing - Commander Millington) feeling that there was some defeatism in those speeches in that they attempted to lead the country to believe that we shall have to have some process of selection for comparatively few jobs because of heavy unemployment. I think the Minister of Labour desires that we shall have the country fully employed, that there shall not be that mad scramble for jobs which there was in the period between the wars, but that rather there shall be an expansionist production policy which will put more men into work than hitherto and use labour fully.

I want to refer to something that was said by the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster), whose contributions to our Debates I generally respect, but who failed on this occasion to get my support. He talked about leaving the matter to voluntary common sense, and he went on to infer that there are moral obligations upon employers. He was kind enough to say that those employers who do not respond by giving a fair deal to the returning men should be pilloried. Those hon. Members who were advocating a preference for ex-Servicemen were in some difficulty before th Minister spoke, but after his speech they were in tremendous difficulties. I think all of us sympathise with the idea that ex-Servicemen should have a preference, but the question that arises is, How shall we do this job? The stern fact is that in this island home of ours, in order to give those splendid fighting men the weapons of war, we have had forcibly to restrain by legislation huge numbers of men from joining the Forces taking part in the country's defence. They have in short had to make the tools to do the job. Is it suggested that no regard should be had to those men?

One hon. Member opposite, in asking for ex-Servicemen to be given a preference for jobs in future, used an argument which I thought was a pretty bad one. He made comparison between the conditions of the fighting men and those of the men in industry. I think it is necessary for me to say that rarely have I seen hon. Members opposite blazing any new trail in the matter of giving fighting men better pay and conditions. Movements of that sort have generally come from these benches. Surely, it looks bad if, after five and a half years of war, we do not give some redress for the bad conditions they have experienced for five and a half years, but only give the men a preference in being considered for work after the war. It is jobs these men want, not merely consideration. I have not heard any hon. Member opposite make any suggestion other than that the Minister of Labour should give them preference in being considered for work. I have not heard any hon. Member opposite suggest that we should compel the employers in industry to take those men and give them jobs. There, of course, is the difficulty. All that hon. Members opposite suggest is tantamount only to a pious hope that these men will be considered by a State Department; for the whole of employment outside there is to be no compulsion on employers to put these people into jobs.

Will the hon. Member extend that argument further and say whether the trade unions are willing to assist in this direction? My memory of the last war is that they did nothing of the kind.

The trade unions support full work. The Minister of Labour has done something better than hon. Members opposite. There is on the Statute Book legislation which gives a legal right to every returning man to take up his former employment again. Surely, that is decidedly better than the situation after the last war. If my right hon. Friend continues in office, as I hope and believe he will do, I am sure we shall have an improvement on that position. I want to mention one thing which rather seems to me to indicate that there will have to be some degree of compulsion used in the matter of the conditions and rights of serving men when they return. Yesterday I put a Question to the Minister of Fuel and Power as follows:

I think one of the best speeches to-day has been that of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford. He finished on the note that the things that we have done in war and the means that our people have adopted to make victory possible, if allied to peace-time production and needs, can place the country in an advantageous position. I should like to pay my tribute to the Minister and his Department They have done a splendid job, and I feel sure that under his dispensation they will do an equally good job in peace. Many of us sympathise with and support those who have the feeling for these preferences, but the tendency to ignore certain difficulties and embarrassments in the process renders such schemes most peculiar. The last speaker said that we should have regard to overseas service. I partly agree, but I have a friend who spent all his service in this country in the earlier stages and in Western Canada, where service has been wonderfully more safe than in London. I believe that the serving man should have his rights, and that can best be achieved by our deciding that unitedly we are going to have the same effort and use of the nation's resources in manpower as we have had in the last five and a half years, and make things better all round.

8.35 p.m.

Everyone has begun with compliments to the right hon. Gentleman and I am very glad that he is back on the Front Bench to hear mine. He will forgive me, if I do not compliment him on everything, and perhaps if I deprecate the excess of compliment which is becoming habitual to him and others. It would be odious to fall short in appreciation and gratitude, but if I really believed, with the last speaker, that by no other man could my country have been saved than the Prime Minister, I should think my country had degenerated very much from what it was in earlier days. We need not describe any one person as absolutely indispensable, and a compliment which begins by doing so becomes excessive.

I wish most particularly to compliment the Minister on his attempt to persuade the Committee and the Press to make a great distinction between demobilisation and reallocation. It seems to me a matter of the most enormous importance that we should not get into the habit of thinking the thing is over yet. The hon. Member for Basset-law (Mr. Bellenger) seemed to me far too easy in his suggestion that it was possible now to fix how many we wanted, from what categories and for how long, before we know what the strategic necessities may be. Almost every race is lost in the last few yards, and it would be the most gratuitous of all errors if we gave up not only running, but our capacity to run, by demobilising ourselves excessively and too soon, and few of us would ask for it. Nor is it any service to the men who have been abroad so long to suggest that their sacrifice is not fully understood by us and by Ministers. So I was extremelty grateful for that portion of the right hon. Gentleman's speech.

But there were one or two other things that I did not like so much. I have had the temerity once before to beg Members, and even Ministers, not to say that we have all been in the front line. I do not believe it goes down well. In almost every house in the country there must be a soldier, a sailor or an airman, there must be someone who knows the difference between going to war for your country, and staying at home, and it is an indignity to the democracy which we profess to serve and to champion that we should speak as if we think it necessary to tell them that they have made sacrifices and accomplished heroisms, which they well know they have not endured.

I did not quite understand—it may be my want of understanding of the technique of the matter—the little story about three women being able to do two men's work, and the right hon. Gentleman persuading the trade unions to alter their arrangements and succeeding in making it one-to-one.

There is a certain system of working, say in a tool shop, and with the existing method of production it would take three women to equal the output of two men. I met the production engineers and asked them to break down one operation, which required a lot of skill, into five, and in the result we made it one for one—three women produced as much work as three men instead of two.

I think I have got it right, though I should have mentioned the production engineers. The right hon. Gentleman saw the production engineers and the trade union people concerned, and they were able, between them, to make such re-arrangements that three women were able, instead of producing as much as two men, to produce as much as three men. If that is the story, it does great credit to what happened at that date, but I would ask what occurred to production before that date? Was it that most of these arrangements could not be made until they had to be made in order to employ women?

British industry is based on a skilled man doing a job through. In some industries there were as many as 50 per cent. skilled men to the total working force to meet what was pre-war commercial production. We had to reduce it down, and that is the explanation.

I want to make a special point which comes within my special business. The right hon. Gentleman said that our main plank was training, and I would ask about the relations of the re-allocation scheme to the filling of the universities and institutions of similar calibre. I beg my right hon. Friend and the Committee to believe me when I say that the last thing in the world I want to do is to get what might be in some sense my own people away. I have always thought that it would be a most disastrous thing, not only if there were any kind of privilege for what might be described as the intelligentsia, but that even the tongue of malice could make it sound as if there were some kind of privilege. I have always thought that at all costs that should be avoided. I should not be the one to object if everybody who had a first-class degree were pushed into the first line; in the interests of the intelligentsia themselves I am convinced that it is good to live a barrack life, even to be shot at, and so on; and the last thing in the world I am asking is that, out of some pretended tenderness that some foolish people might claim for these chaps, they might be allowed out earlier. But I am not quite clear from the White Paper whether there has been full enough consideration of the methods that must be necessary if the universities are to turn over with their maximum grist to grind. I could, I am sure, persuade the Committee that in this kind of production it is more necessary than in almost any other kind of production that there should be what is hideously called a regular through-put, that you should know in October, for instance, that there will be so many to teach, and so on. If the point has not been thrashed out, perhaps we may be told what stage has now been reached.

8.45 p.m.

I deplore the fact that the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Collindridge) should have lowered the standard of the Debate by bringing in party politics and making the almost impertinent suggestion that the extra pay and allowances which were extracted with some difficulty from the Government during the war, were almost entirely due to the efforts of Members on that side and not to Members on this. I am sure the hon. Member did not mean to misrepresent the position. I hope he will be good enough to read again the Debate on the Army Estimates last year, where he will see the error he has committed. I would like to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the fact that in the "Daily Telegraph" this morning there was a paragraph headed "Twenty-four hours for a vital decision." It indicated that troops under the command of S.H.A.E.F. were asked to decide on one of three alternatives. These were, whether they would insist on their present demobilisation rights, whether they would wait until general demobilisation or whether they would serve one or two more years. Later this morning, I was asked to make the same option, but it was explained that the option was tentative and involved no commitment. It would be useful if the Parliamentary Secretary could make a statement so that everyone could know what the position is. My right hon. Friend mentioned the question of nurses. It is vital that we should have all the nurses we want in this country, but there is one authority which is doing a thing well calculated to prevent it. That is His Majesty's Government. I think that my right hon. Friend might do well to read the Riot Act to the Minister of Health, who, by allowing those people who are attendants at Christian Science institutes to describe themselves as Christian Science nurses, is infuriating the whole nursing profession and taking an action which may prevent people joining it. I hope, therefore, that my right hon. Friend will discuss this question with the Minister of Health.

8.47 p.m.

I wish to draw the attention of my right hon. Friend to a point with reference to the Merchant Navy. He is perhaps aware that entry into the Merchant Navy before the war was either direct or through nautical training schools for deck hands. The Merchant Navy became exceedingly popular after the war broke out, and the worse things got at sea, the more men crowded into it, which did the greatest credit to them. In the end, it became embarrassing because there were more seamen available than there were ships to man. The Minister stopped direct entry into the Merchant Navy and directed that it should be through training establishments for deck hands. For that purpose, new schools were set up in certain places. In Scotland, there was no nautical training establishment for deck hands before the war, and approaches were made to get one from the Government, but without success. Eventually private enterprise came on the scene and a school was set up at Leith providing for the intake of 72 boys a year. Seventy-two boys in Scotland is woefully inadequate considering the number who normally go to sea for a livelihood. From one of the counties I represent alone 100 to 150 boys normally went into the Merchant Navy every year.

When preparations were being made for D-Day, it was anticipated that the Merchant Navy would have severe casualties. In point of fact, it had very few. The situation is that after D-Day the Merchant Navy was full to overflowing, and the existing training establishments, including the new ones, were pouring out more boys than were needed. Something had to be done about it, and the Minister abolished Wallasey and other places and applied severe cuts on all the other training establishments. The effect on Scotland was to reduce the annual through-put from 72 to 24, which made the situation worse than ever. Boys can only enter the Merchant Navy through the nautical training establishments, and the entry is confined to very few. The result is that thousands of boys all round the Scottish coast will be denied for ever any chance of taking up their normal occupation. I implore the Minister to consider this question very carefully and to do everything possible to reopen the normal entry to the nautical training establishments. I would say that we want something very much more than 72 per annum.

8.50 p.m.

I agree with the Minister that when these lads come back we must see that they return to civil life with the greatest possible speed and the greatest possible value. I would like hon. Members to consider this an important principle. The Minister proudly said that as a result of the approaches he had made to the trade union leaders and employers, and of the methods he introduced, he was able to get one for one in the relationship of women to men in production. He was very proud of that. One for one in producing the wealth and the goods of this country is very good. The lads who come back will never get justice unless in the distribution of the resources that have been produced we have the relationship of one for one. If hon. Members on the other side and their associates get 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 for one of the goods produced in relation to members of the working class, we shall never get justice.

8.51 p.m.

I congratulate the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) on making full use of the one minute which was allowed him. I thought it was a happy augury that the day on which the Minister of Labour was able to announce the scheme for the release from the Forces and the relaxation of the call-up for industry should be the day on which one of our windows was restored to the House, although it did not have any balancing effect on the Member of the Liberal Party who ventured to put in an appearance. I congratulate the Liberal Nationals on choosing for the Supply Day allotted to them at such an appropriate time as this the subject of the resettlement of people released from the Forces. I regret that in a Debate in which all parties in the House have played a conspicuous part in dealing with these problems of a purely non-party nature, the orthodox Liberals, except for the one hon. Member opposite, have not shown themselves interested in this subject at all.

The plan as outlined by the Minister of Labour has received the support of all sections of the community. It has involved a great deal of hard work in the Department, and a lot of study has been given to this matter. I am sure the House of Commons, in their appreciation of the Minister's speech, also wish to thank the members of his Department who have put in such hard work in connection with this matter, and I assure hon. Members that their remarks are very much appreciated in the Department. We recognise that this problem of resettlement is not one problem but consists of millions of individual problems. No two exactly similar sets of circumstances apply. Therefore, the plan must be kept flexible. It also means that, however good the plans are, the success of the operation of resettlement depends upon the good will and co-operation of everybody. The friendly welcome and understanding shown to the returning man by his manager, foreman and fellow workmen in the factory, shop, field or wherever it is, is one of the fundamental things which will count in the successful and smooth resettlement of men into civilian life. So far as the Ministry of Labour are concerned, our ultimate success will finally depend upon the individual handling of these men by our officials at the employment exchanges, the resettlement advice offices and the appointments offices. These local officials during the war have done a difficult job extraordinarily well, and they have gained much experience. During the full mobilisation of the war effort their job has been essentially one of compulsion, while paying all due consideration possible to the individual's wishes, subject of course to the overriding needs of the State. We can now make a start towards more emphasis being placed upon the consideration of the individual and some slight relaxation in the controls necessary. But, to those who would press for freedom from controls quickly—and I am glad the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) reminded the Committee of this—I would emphasise that the war in the Far East must ever remain paramount, and also that it is in the interests of everybody in the nation—employers, workpeople and the general public—that our change-over should be orderly and planned, and not chaotic.

We have had a most interesting Debate, opened by a very thoughtful speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster). I was very glad that he laid emphasis upon the proper manning-up of industry. I believe the training schemes which my right hon. Friend has announced to-day will do much towards building up a properly balanced labour force in that direction. We had a question from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Holderness (Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite) with regard to officers and men and their reinstatement rights. Those rights are in the Merchant Navy Reserve Pool, by Section 7 (3) of the Reinstatement Act, and they will receive pay and allowances not less favourable than they would have had if they had not served in the Forces, subject to this being reasonable and practicable.

We had a question on the analysis of the figure 750,000, which my right hon. Friend put forward without in any way committing himself but as a sort of hopeful target of releases by the end of the year. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) and the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson) asked for some indication how far the figure, which applies to all three Forces, brought releases under the group scheme forward. It is difficult to estimate it accurately until we know the number of volunteers likely to come forward. Therefore I would not like to say more than that we expect, as far as the Army is concerned, that it will bring us into the middle twenties. I do not want to lay down an exact figure with regard to the matter. I was asked also whether we could make it clear beyond possibility of dispute that the decision no longer to call up men over 30 would not make any difference to the date of the release of the men now in the Forces. I can give that categoric assurance.

I have been asked a good many questions about releases under Class B. I thought I might therefore make a statement as to how Class B release will work. The block release in Class B is confined, except for a small number of underground mineworkers, to building and ancillary workers. The number of men coming out in Class B in those trades will be: 60,000 building trade workers and 10,000 men in building materials, industries, that is 70,000 out of the first 100,000. As my right hon. Friend has said, that will be 10 per cent. of the Class A release, and therefore the figures relate to the first million releases from the Armed Forces.

Are there not to be some considerable releases of teachers under Class B, in view of the urgent need of the schools?

I am coming to that point. I was talking about block releases. Teachers are to be released under some individual scheme of notification of names by the Department concerned. The Service Departments each maintain a central index which shows, among other things, the pre-enlistment occupation signified by the Ministry of Labour when the man or woman was called up. We ask the Service Department, for instance, for X number of bricklayers to be released in Class B. The Service Department will then decide the earliest age group in which it is worth while for a man to be released in Class B. It is likely that a Class B release would not be offered within three or four months of a man due to come out under Class A, it would not be worth while. The Service Department would identify the bricklayers and proceed down the index by age and service. The block releases would then be in age-plus-service order, until the necessary number of bricklayers have been identified.

Has it been decided how many architects and surveyors are coming out under Class B?

I am endeavouring to answer quite a different point. Through the Records Offices commanding officers will be furnished with lists of men who have been selected under the scheme. The individuals concerned will be offered release out of their turn with a full explanation of the conditions attaching to Class B release. If a man accepts, he will be set on his way towards his Class B release. If he is in a far theatre of war and the date of his Class A release is reached before the process is completed, he will be transferred to a Class A release. I will ask the Secretary of State for War about the "Daily Telegraph" report which was referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Peterborough (Viscount Suirdale).

Teachers will not be released en bloc but by individual release, on names supplied by the appropriate authorities. In addition to that, there is a small number of specialist releases on a strictly individual basis. The individual concerned will be named by the employers, and will be sponsored by the proper Government sponsoring Department. The names will be sent to the Ministry of Labour, who will "vet" them, and only if they satisfy the rigorous conditions laid down will they be forwarded to the Service Department with a recommendation for release.

I would like, in passing, to congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford (Wing-Commander Millington) on a most attractive maiden speech, which I very much enjoyed, and which I think most Members of the Committee enjoyed. He has obviously a big political future, especially if he changes his party to one of the more prominent ones. He asked whether an ex-apprentice who did not wish to go back to his previous employment would be allowed to train for some other job. The answer is "Yes," under our training scheme. He also suggested that all the information about release and resettlement had not yet got to the individual airman. Possibly I am to blame in that matter, because owing to the hon. and gallant Member's recent arrival here, I believe that I had not sent him a copy of our release and resettlement booklet, which has gone to all other hon. Members. I apologise to him. This booklet is being issued to all the Forces. I will see that it is sent to all other recently elected Members in this House. He also raised a point about controls over the individual and control over the employer. We are endeavouring at the moment to lift the controls over the individual man so far as possible and only use directions in the last resort, and to place the onus of the proper control of labour, as far as possible, on the employer, under our Control of Engage-meet Order, and the onus will be on the employer to employ only persons recommended through the employment exchanges if they are in the age groups laid down. The penalty will be on the employer if an infringement takes place. I hope that will meet with the hon. and gallant Member's approval.

I wish to say a word or two about our Appointments Offices, which are a new experiment. I believe they will play a very large part in the future life of this country, but their great responsibility in the immediate future will be the proper placing in industry and the professions of those who come within their orbit, who will be young officers and those other ranks who have the proper educational and other qualifications to be dealt with by the Appointments Officers. It is very important that we should get a maximum number of these young men, who have shown their worth, their initiative and powers of leadership in the Fighting Services, into the executive and administrative ranks of industry. Industry will be very short of men of the right type if they do not make up the gap created through there having been no recruitment of this class of individual during the last five years. Apart altogether from our supreme obligation to these young men, I believe it is important for industry to calculate—each individual firm and trade—how many men of those qualifications they would have taken into their ranks during the last five years, but for the war, and then make arrangements with us so that for the next two or three years they recruit that extra number of men into their ranks. So we will not only stimulate industry, but get in some of these young men who did not have the chances which others before them have had, of going into these better positions in industry, with better prospects. I would ask all those concerned with industry seriously to consider their position, not only to these young men but also to their own industry in this matter.

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) has withdrawn his objections to our scheme on the ground of priority for ex-Servicemen, but I would like to make one or two remarks on this subject and on what we propose to do. If there are, in the employment exchanges, a number of equally-qualified men on the register, the exchanges will submit to employers a selection of the most suitable, including, of course, ex-Servicemen, and it is for the employer to make his choice. We will also carefully mark the man's card, so that the employer has no reason not to be able to see, if he so wishes, which man is an ex-Serviceman. I would suggest to those who are anxious in this respect, the British Legion and others, that they should concentrate on converting the employers on this principle. If an employer rang up and said that he wanted only ex-Servicemen submitted, we would do that. It is the employer, whether it is an individual, a local authority, or a private firm, who makes the choice. In addition—this is an important point, which I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will be pleased to learn—our exchanges will be particularly instructed that, in selecting applicants for jobs, they must see that ex-Servicemen are not placed at a disadvantage through lack of recent experience of civilian employment. I believe that these arrangements will give the ex-Serviceman a really fair chance of any employment that is going—and that is what hon. Members ask. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Lord Willoughby de Eresby) asked, for example, that ex-Servicemen should not be placed at any disadvantage, and our plans are made to meet that point.

May I speak for a moment about the stability of the country during the last five years? The country has had a very fine record of good employment, from the no-dispute angle, contrary to what one might read sometimes in the Press. Notwithstanding the difficult conditions under which we have worked since the outbreak of the war, in all industries except coal-mining the total number of working days lost amount, in round figures, to something like 4,500,000, which means that less than one out of every four in the country lost just one day in the last five years through disputes, and the other three lost no days at all through industrial disputes. I will look into other points which have been made. The hon. and gallant Member for Orkney and Shetland (Major Neven-Spence) made a point which is bound up with the release of all ships from the Forces, especially trawlers. We are looking into that matter.

On the smoothness and success of our resettlement, in my opinion, will depend for many years to come the prosperity and happiness of this country of ours. If we can carry it through without friction and without bitterness and strife I believe that, however difficult our trade outlook might appear to the pessimist, in fact, our future is bright; but I am equally sure that we literally cannot afford troubles and strikes, because we have now no fat left on which to live—I am not referring, of course, either to my right hon. Friend or to myself. The country literally cannot afford the troubles and strikes such as we had at the end of the last war and for many years after. I would ask Members of Parliament, and, indeed, every man and woman of goodwill in the country, to assist the Ministry of Labour in carrying out this great operation with the same magnificent spirit of unity and co-operation in which they have enabled us to mobilise the nation for the war to the greatest extent in its history.

Ordered: "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[ Mr. Mathers. ]

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

Demobilisation (Allied Army Service)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Mathers. ]

9.16 p.m.

We have been considering to-day the broad problems of demobilisation and resettlement. The point I want to bring before the House on the Motion for the Adjournment is a small one—a matter of detail connected with the demobilisation scheme. I am impelled to do so for two reasons. One is that it affects a certain number of men, who are now serving in the British Army, who have served previously in one of the Allied Armies, and many of whom, I know from personal inquiry, have served the Allied cause gallantly. It appears to me that they are suffering an injustice, and that is why I bring it forward, although the number of people involved is very small. The second reason is that, when I raised the matter at Question Time two months ago, I got such an unsympathetic, curt and hostile answer from the Secretary of State for War, who refused to give any explanation whatever for his decision, that I felt that the only method of finding out what was really in the mind of the Government was to raise it on the Motion for the Adjournment.

I would like to read to the House, so that it might be in possession of the point I have in mind, the Question which I put to the Minister in March of this year and the answer I received. I am now reading from HANSARD: my hon. Friends who were sitting around me, because it does appear that, superficially, these men have a strong case, and the refusal of the War Office even to consider it, or to give any explanation of their attitude, is extraordnary.

What is the type of man involved? They are, of course, mostly foreigners, who have joined one of the Allied Services and fought in the war, many of them being wounded before they were able to join the British Army. I know intimately two cases, but, of course, there are many more. The cases I have in mind are men who have joined the Foreign Legion in France. They would have preferred to have joined the British Army, but they were unable to do so. They joined the Foreign Legion as soon as they could in 1939, and eventually went to Africa. For some period they were interned. As soon as they could, they came to this country and joined the British Army through the Pioneer Corps. They went into the regular Army and fought in France; one man was wounded as a member of the British Army and the other man, whom I know, was wounded when serving in the Allied Army before he was able to join the British Army.

The question is simply this. As every Member knows, the demobilisation scheme is rightly based on a combination of age and period of service, but the period of service which counts is apparently only the period of service in one of the British Services. Some of these men joined the British Army, Navy or Air Force only in 1944 or 1943, but, nevertheless, they were members of an Allied Army, Navy or Air Force from 1939. Therefore, I submit that there is a strong case for saying that the services of these men should count from the time they were members of an Allied Service. This is one war. Every member of the Allied Services are fighting for the same cause and fighting equally well and gallantly, whether in the French Foreign Legion or in the British Army. It seems that an injustice is being done to these men when the right hon. Gentleman said, without any explanation whatever, that he would not take into account their earlier service in which, maybe, they were wounded in an Allied Army.

My point in raising the matter on the Adjournment this evening is to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will retract the view he expressed, when I asked him the question, that the case I put forward had no merits whatever. It may be that he did not appreciate the type of case I was talking about. I could think of no other explanation of his extraordinarily unsympathetic reply, but now that I have explained at greater length the type of case I have in mind—and there cannot be more than a few of these people in the British Army, the Royal Navy or the Royal Air Force—I hope the Secretary of State for War will give us the reasons on which he based his answer, if he still persists in it.

I would, of course, much rather he said that, in view of the further explanation I have given, he will consult the other Service Departments and consider with them whether it is not possible to meet the view I have put forward and to remove what is obviously a serious anomaly and injustice concerning a small number of men. I very much hope that he will say that, as I think that the House will agree that an injustice is being made in respect of these men who are, to-day, in the Armed Services of this country and who, for some years past, have been in the Armed Services of other Allied countries. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider the decision he gave to the House when I put the Question to him some few months ago.

9.24 p.m.

The hon. Member for North Lambeth (Mr. G. Strauss) produced two cases of men who had served in the French Foreign Legion and then, afterwards, in the British Army. Those must be very exceptional cases, and I would not mind wagering a small sum they are the only two cases of that particular kind involved. But there are a number of other cases in this category of people who have served previously in foreign Armies and are now serving in the British Army, and they fall into three very well-marked categories. In the first are a number of Frenchmen who arrived in England after the collapse of France in 1940 and who, for some reason or other, absolutely refused to join the French Forces under General de Gaulle. That, I think, is a pretty small class. Then there are a number of Czechs who in 1940 mutinied and refused to serve in the Czech Army any longer. Then there is the case of a number of Jews who deserted from the Polish Army in 1943. Now I have assumed—and I think my assumption is not very far wrong—that the cases which the hon. Member for North Lambeth (Mr. G. Strauss) really has in mind are the third class.

These are the men who in 1943 found service in the Polish Army so distasteful that they deserted. I believe that their leader came to London and got into touch with the hon. Member—at any rate great pressure was put upon the Government by him to take more of them than we actually took into the British Army. The early deserters only were taken into the British Army at the request of the Polish Government, and on the recommendation of the Foreign Office. Personally, I have had the greatest doubts as to the wisdom of this step and so, evidently, had the other people concerned, because the later demands for acceptance into the British Army were refused. The suggestion now—apart from these two people who had service in the Foreign Legion—is that these deserters from the Polish Army should count all their service in the Polish Army for purposes of priority of release from the British Army under the age and service scheme and, presumably, for all the monetary benefits which accrue on account of service.

In the first place, let me say that, although this proposal would involve considerable administrative difficulties, I do not propose to found any argument on that; I propose to rely on the intrinsic merits or, as I think, the absence of merits. The hon. Member has quoted from my original answer. I am very sorry if it displeases him, but I remain of my opinion still.

The truth is that the age and service release scheme deals, so to speak, with two and only two commodities—a man's age and his service in the Armed Forces of the Crown. We are not to-night naturally, concerned with his age, but as far as the second is concerned, I think I am right in recalling to the memory of the House that the only exceptions to the general rule—and the general rule, as I have suggested is that only service in the Armed Forces of the Crown counts—are, I think I am right in saying, the Merchant Navy and a very small number of people who were ex-firemen, who had been absorbed into the Army and were let out specially during the very severe blitz on London and allowed to count the interregnum of their service—not their original national fire service, but the part when they were seconded from the Army for special and most dangerous service in connection with the blitz. No allowance is made in the release regulations for service in Civil Defence or in the Civil Service, or in munitions work, or in any other reserved occupation. This was decided quite deliberately by the Government after the most exhaustive consideration, and I think it only right to say that it has met with absolutely universal acceptance.

Now what answer can one make to people who have had previous service in, say, the National Fire Service, if we are now to pick out for special treatment people who had previously served in a foreign Army, and then after a bit came to join the British Army—and in most of the cases they were people who had actually deserted from that foreign Army? I suggest that you could not look your own people in the face if you did that sort of thing. I would like to mention one other point, though I do not want to labour it overmuch. There is a provision in our release regulations that, as from a certain date, service in the British Armed Forces, which is terminated by desertion, does not count for purposes of the release scheme. As I say, I do not want to labour the point but I suggest that it does produce another argument in favour of the case I am trying to establish, namely, that the claim put forward by the hon. Member has little, if anything, to recommend it.

Can the Minister say how many men are involved, and whether it is not a fact that many of these men who have come from Allied Armies, and have joined the British Forces, have distinguished themselves in the most daring way in dangerous jobs? Can he also say whether—

I must remind the hon. Gentleman that we cannot have a second speech from him on the Adjournment. He is entitled to put a question but this question seems a very long one.

Can the Minister say how many of the men we are talking about have been wounded in (battle, either while serving with the British Army, or an Allied Army?

The total number involved is, I suppose, a matter of hundreds, but the number in the Armed Forces who have been in Civil Defence or the N.F.S. must be tens, or even hundreds, of thousands, so it is no good asking how many there were. An incomparably better claim can be made for the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of those who have been in the Civil Defence and N.F.S. I have not the foggiest notion of how many of those to whom the hon. Member has referred, have distinguished themselves, but I do know that large numbers of men who have been in the Civil Defence and N.F.S. not only distinguished themselves in their non-accountable service, but also after they got into the Forces. A great many of the civil population who afterwards found themselves in the Army, not only did heroic service as civilians, but also as soldiers. The hon. Gentleman's argument carries us nowhere.

Did I understand my right hon. Friend to say that men who had been transferred from the Army to the N.F.S. at the wish of the Army would not have their time in the N.F.S. taken into account?

I said exactly the opposite. I said that that is one of the exceptions, with the Merchant Navy, to the normal rule that only service in the Armed Forces of the Crown counts.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-eight Minutes to Ten o'Clock.