House of Commons
Thursday, May 17, 1945
The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]
Victory in Europe
His Majesty's Reply to Address
Mr. SPEAKER and the House went to attend His Majesty, and, being returned —
I have to inform the House that the House has this day waited upon His Majesty, and that I presented a Humble Address of congratulation on the victorious conclusion of the war in Europe, and that His Majesty was pleased to make answer thereto. As the House has already heard His Majesty's Gracious Speech, I will not re-read it, but will cause it to be printed in the journals.
His Majesty's Reply, delivered to the Members of both Houses of Parliament [ here inserted for convenience of reference ] was as followeth:
I am glad to meet you here to-day, and rejoice that the Dominions, India and the Colonies are also represented here.
I thank you for your loyal addresses of congratulation on the complete victory which has been gained in Europe over the enemies which sought to enslave it. It is a victory which has been won by the efforts of all My peoples and the power of all our Allies.
First let us pay tribute to the men and women of our Armed Forces. Without the skill of the Commanders and the courage and endurance of those whom they led, this victory would never have been won.
Despite all that a ruthless foe could do in attacks by sea and air, the Royal Navy, aided by the Royal Air Force and the maritime forces of the Dominions, India and the Allies, have kept the seas open. They have convoyed our Armies to every theatre of war and carried them to the assault against shores which the enemy had thought to make impregnable.
The Merchant Navy, by their courage and sacrifice, have moved men and weapons to all parts of the world and, with the fishing fleet, depleted by the needs of war, have brought to us a steady flow of food and supplies which has never failed.
The gallantry of the Army which fought in Europe against overwhelming odds in 1940 and the miraculous rescue from Dunkirk will ever be remembered. In the years that followed, the Army, with the Home Guard, stood ready to defend our homes against invasion. All this time the powerful instrument was being forged which, with the Forces of the Empire and Commonwealth, at first alone and later with our Allies, drove the enemy from Africa and then, landing on the shores of Sicily and Italy, and later on the Normandy beaches, swept victoriously across Europe.
We are grateful to the Royal Air Force and the Dominions and Allied Air Forces. The Royal Air Force fought and won the Battle of Britain. They share with the Royal Navy and our Armies the imperishable glory of their victories. For more than five years, hand in hand with the evergrowing magnificent Air power of the United States, they carried the war into the heart of Germany, and, by their massive onslaughts on the enemy's sources of supply, paved the way for victory in Europe.
My Armed Forces still have heavy tasks before them in the Far East, where numbers of My people are still in the power of the enemy. Already they have achieved great successes in the defence of India and the liberation of Burma. I am confident that they will carry on the war against Japan with indomitable courage and constancy and help to bring it to a victorious conclusion in true comradeship with the superb Forces of the United States and other Allies.
At home My people have unflinchingly borne the burdens and dangers of war. The thanks and admiration of all are due to tens of millions of men and women who toiled, all at their allotted tasks, to relieve the suffering and repair the devastation caused by enemy attack. Danger could not deter My people from carrying out their daily tasks, that the life of our Nation might go on.
In field, factory, mine, office, workshop and on the lines of transport, My people have toiled day and night in a productive effort to equip and maintain the Armed Forces. Moreover, from the earliest days of the war, they have shouldered the burden of heavy taxation and have willingly contributed their savings to the country's need.
Our gratitude goes out to all, and it would be unfitting to single out one type of Service when all have played their part.
But I must specially mention the women of this country, who by their ready response to the calls of industry and the Fighting Services have added so greatly to the weight of our impact on the enemy. Let us remember too the housewives of this country, so many of whom took into their homes mothers and children from the bombed cities and workers uprooted by the war.
I have done My best to discharge My duty as the Constitutional Sovereign of a free people, and in this task I have been unceasingly helped by The Queen, whose deep and active sympathy for all My subjects in pain or peril and whose firm resolve for victory have comforted Me in the darkest hours of the war.
We mourn the loss of all who have laid down their lives at home and abroad. The Queen and I would wish to offer Our sympathy to those whom the war has stricken with the loss of their nearest and dearest. We Ourselves have suffered the keenest grief at the loss on active service of My Brother, the Duke of Kent.
I have felt deeply for My loyal subjects in the Channel Islands who have remained steadfast for so long under enemy occupation and it gives Me joy to know that they are once again free.
Throughout our long struggle, all of us in this island have been strengthened and cheered by the staunch and valiant support of the peoples of the British Commonwealth and Empire overseas. My Dominions, India and My Colonies have all given generously of their manpower and material resources, and all will continue to bear their share of the exertions of the war against Japan.
We rejoice to acknowledge, and we shall never forget, the aid so freely and promptly given by the United States, and the brotherhood of our Armed Forces serving together in various theatres under combined commands. The splendid victories of the Soviet Union, and the courage of all those other Allies who suffered and fought with us in our common struggle against aggression, will ever be recorded in our hearts and in our history.
The rebuilding of Europe will bring with it trials and difficulties which can be met and overcome if we continue to work together in faithfulness and mutual help as we have done during the war.
The ravages which we ourselves have suffered during the war will call for an intense creative effort by all members of the community to restore and improve the standard of living of My people.
The Grand Alliance of the United Nations which has brought us victory can and must continue, to ensure that the peace of the world is not again outraged and destroyed. The purposes for which the United Nations have been linked in war do not end in victory. Mankind looks forward to a time when all nations, under God's good providence, will be able to work together in mutual confidence for these exalted aims.
This Palace of Westminster in which we meet to-day bears the scars of war, and you have faced unmoved the ordeals and the losses of these hard years. The Queen and I have been deeply touched by your congratulations and We thank you with all Our hearts for the wise counsel and unfailing support which you have given to the Kingdom and Empire throughout the war.
Private Business
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Irwell Valley Water Board) Bill
Read the Third time, and passed.
Marriages Provisional Order Bill
Read the Third time, and passed.
Oral Answers to Questions
Release and Resettlement
Ex-Service Employees (Redundancy)
asked the Minister of Labour what is the position of persons who were transferred from one or the other of the Services to civilian occupations or professions, when they became redundant in the latter; are they subject to re-transfer to the Services, or are they entitled to seek further civilian employment.
Members of the Forces who are on release to a civilian occupation or profession are liable to recall to the Forces if they become redundant in the work for which they were released. They are not free to seek any employment they wish but they may, in appropriate circumstances, be transferred to other work of national importance. In general, men on release who become redundant in their civil employment will not be recalled to the Forces if they are above the current call-up age.
Does this apply to people of all ages who have been in the Forces?
No, I have already said that men on release who become redundant will not be recalled if they are above the current call-up age.
Will the period of service in industry count towards demobilisation?
No, Sir.
Export Trade (Labour Allocation)
asked the Minister of Labour what priority is given in the allocation of labour to firms preparing for and engaged in the export trade.
It is my task to endeavour to supply labour in accordance with approved allocations of the man-power available. With a shortage of man-power first priority must be given to the urgent requirements of the Japanese war and to essential services. The question of priority between goods for the home market and for export is for my right horn. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.
Will the right hon. Gentleman assist the Board of Trade by giving him priority of labour for goods to be made for the export market because, obviously, we cannot export goods unless we have the labour with which to make them?
I ask the House to be very careful about this matter. After five years of war and with homes waiting for replenishment an appropriate balance must be struck.
Building Trade Workers, Scotland
asked the Minister of Labour if he will take steps to bring about the immediate release from the Services of men who have been employed in the building trade in Scotland so that the desperate housing situation in Scotland may be tackled seriously before the autumn.
On the general question of the release of building trade workers from the Forces, I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement I made in the Debate yesterday. Scotland will, of course, share in the release of building trade workers in Class B.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that Scottish building trade workers who have been brought to London are complaining that they have been put on short time, and that ther services are not being fully used? In view of that, could some of them be sent back to Scotland?
It all depends on what my hon. Friend calls "short time." We have cut hours from 60 to 54 a week, and I should have thought that 54 hours' good work in a week was enough fox any Scots man.
Is it not the case that the Government are keeping some of these men in the Forces because there are no houses in Scotland to which they can return?
Nonsense.
Does the Minister appreciate how desperate are housing conditions in Scotland, and will he consider sending these men back?
I am aware of the desperate housing situation in both Scotland and England, but it is a question of degree and we are trying to arrange for building labour to catch up with the shortage.
Civil Defence Personnel
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will reconsider the policy of refusing to allow those who volunteered for Civil Defence at or before the outbreak of war and have served full-time ever since to return to their pre-war jobs where these are available for them, now that the Civil Defence Service has been stood down.
I cannot make a rule that these men and women should invariably be allowed to return to their pre-war work. It is, however, my aim to meet the wishes of workers generally as to their employment wherever this can be done without detriment to the claims of more urgent work.
Will the Minister see that employment exchanges in the London area know of that decision?
Yes, Sir, but it is already in their instructions.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will arrange that building tradesmen discharged from the Civil Defence services in areas which have suffered severe bomb damage will be directed to local firms engaged in bomb-damage repairs and not elsewhere, particularly in the case of those Civil Defence personnel who have been working during their off days for local contractors engaged on bomb-damage repairs.
It is essential to the efficient organisation of bomb damage repair work to maintain, as far as possible, the general rule that workers should be sent where their services are most urgently needed. I have, however, arranged that Civil Defence and N.F.S. personnel should be allowed, on discharge, to take up employment with local contractors with whom they have been working on bomb damage repair work during their off periods.
Students
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the release from the Forces of students whose studies were interrupted by the war.
No, Sir.
Is the Minister aware that a great many people are not concerned about the financial provisions, but are very concerned at the fact that their boys have been in the Army for years, and should have priority?
I stated emphatically in the House yesterday that I do not propose to break the scheme to give any more priorities than have already been decided.
Is the Minister aware that there is a serious shortage of male teachers in schools, and does not his scheme make some special provision in order that children should not suffer from inadequate instruction in the forthcoming years?
This Question deals with students, and not teachers.
Do I take it that the Government are no longer interested in education?
We try every week here, and I am sure that the hon. Member gains by it.
One-Man Businesses
asked the Minister of Labour if he will consider giving earlier release to the owner of a one-man business, some of whose staff are in the Forces and are due for discharge before he is, in order to enable him to return to his business and reinstate his former employees when they are demobilised.
No, Sir. I should not be justified in making an exception of this nature to the general rule of release from the Forces by age and length of service.
Are there any hardship tribunals to which these men can make application? If not, will the Minister consult with the Service Ministers so that applications can be considered on their merits?
No, Sir. I am very sorry to be hard about this, but I must stick to age and length of service.
In a case like this would not the proposal imperil the whole principle of demobilisation?
War Factories (Discharges)
asked the Minister of Labour how many men and women, respectively, have been discharged from war factories owing to the diminution of war work.
Statistics of discharges due to diminution of war work are not available.
Royal Ordnance Factory, Spennymoor
asked the Minister of Labour how many men and women are to be given notice at the Spennymoor Royal Ordnance factory at an early date; and whether persons to be discharged will have to sign on at the Employment Exchange or whether they will be offered other employment.
During the next few weeks it will be necessary to reduce the strength at the Royal Ordnance Factory by about 1,200 workers, rather more than half of whom will be women. Every effort is being made to arrange for their transfer to other work immediately they become available, but in the case of any who have not been placed by the time of their release, action to find them alternative employment will be continued by their local employment exchanges.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Development Board for the Spennymor area is very concerned about redundancy at this factory, and will he use his good offices to transfer the rest of the production of the factory to some other place, so that the factory can be set on a peace-time basis and used for peace-time production?
I will go into that with the Minister of Supply and the President of the Board of Trade, and see what can be done.
Prison Officers
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will give prison officers serving with the Forces the same priority of release as is to be given to police officers.
Arrangements are being made for the release from the Forces on an individual basis under the Class B arrangements of a number of prison officers to return to their former employment.
Questions
Women Over 40 (Call-Up)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will now cease to call up for interview women over 40 years of age or to direct them to work.
Yes, Sir, unless a particular woman possesses special skill or qualifications urgently required for essential work of the highest urgency.
Employment Statistics (Publication)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will now resume the publication of the monthly statistical statement relating to employment and unemployment.
No, Sir. I am not satisfied that publication monthly is necessary in present circumstances, but I am keeping the matter under review.
Disabled Persons' Employment Corporation
asked the Minister of Labour what remuneration is to be paid to the directors of the Disabled Persons' Employment Corporation, Limited.
A decision has not yet been taken in this matter.
Will any of the principal directors of this Corporation be paid?
I have never discussed it with them; they took on the job quite readily and did not ask me for anything, and I do not see why I should promote any desire.
Victory Celebrations (Holidays With Pay)
asked the Minister of Labour if the third VE-Day holiday will be a national holiday with pay.
I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement which I made on 4th April last in which it was made clear that so far as Government factories and establishments were concerned the third day would be taken according to the local circumstances of each factory or establishment.
Is it made clear that it will be on the same basis as the other two days, and that the Government will expect it to be a holiday with pay?
I cannot tell industry what it has got to pay, but if the unions and the employers are fixing up a holiday, I cannot imagine an agreement being arrived at without that going with it.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that a very large number of important industries have given the three days' holiday with pay?
If it has been taken and paid for, the point in the Question does not arise.
As the Government will have to provide funds for this out of E.P.T., ought not the Government to make up their minds?
It does not happen in every case in that way. I think the hon. Gentleman is aware that the standard is so high for some companies that it does come out of the company's income and not out of E.P.T.
Greater London (Planning Authority)
asked the Minister of Town and Country Planning whether he is now able to make any statement with regard to the constitution of a central planning authority for the area of Greater London.
I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to the answer I gave to him on 8th March, to which, at the moment, I have nothing to add.
If I put down a Question after the Recess, will my right hon. Friend be in a position to give an answer?
I hope so.
National Parks
asked the Minister of Town and Country Planning if he is now able to make a statement with reference to the setting up of a National Parks Commission.
The Report on National Parks in England and Wales was published yesterday. In the near future, I hope to make a further statement.
As the matter has been before the Minister for many months past, will he make a statement in the very near future?
In the fairly near future, but I shall need a little time for proper consideration of the Report.
Pensions and Grants
asked the Minister of Pensions if, in view of the fact that the casualties in the war in Europe are less than were feared, he will now give consideration to the revision of the Royal Warrant with a view to increasing the allowances to the widows and children of men who have died on service and to bring within the Warrant cases of men discharged because of cancer and tuberculosis.
As recently as May last the Government authorised substantial increases in rates of widows' pensions and children's allowances and there has been no such change in the general situation as would justify a further revision of those rates at the present time. As regards the latter part of the Question, cancer and tuberculosis are not excluded from the Warrant, but are, like other diseases, subject to the basic principle of entitlement, namely that any disability must have been either attributable to or aggravated by service. I am not prepared to recommend any departure from this principle, under which the great majority of claims in respect of tuberculosis are in fact admitted.
Does the Minister remember saying in the House that when the casualties of the war were known, he would consider reviewing the Royal Warrant in the light of these anomalies, and how does he reconcile that with the answer he has just given?
The war in Europe is over, but the war with Japan is not over. I have yet to face demobilisation, when many thousands of claims will come before me and many thousands of pensions will be admitted. The time is not yet ripe for reconsideration.
Does that undertaking still stand, and when the war with Japan is over, will the Minister review the matter?
I have not the same recollection about what I said as the hon. Member has, but I will look it up. Whatever I have said, I have said, and I stick to it.
British Troops, India (Cholera Cases)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether any cases of cholera have occurred amongst British troops serving in India or Burma.
Fifteen cases of cholera occurred at the end of last month amongst British officers billeted at a certain hotel in Calcutta. Of these one died as a result of developing pneumonia. Three of the waiters were afterwards discovered to be cholera carriers. Immediate action was taken and the outbreak is now at an end. In Burma there have been 26 sporadic cases of cholera mostly among Indian troops. There have been no other cases of cholera among British troops in India and Burma since 1943. Since cholera is endemic in these areas the comparative immunity of the troops is a tribute to the skill and devotion of the medical services and the value of modern protective measures.
Burma (Government Policy)
asked the Secretary of State for Burma whether he is now in a position to make a statement as to the future policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to Burma.
Yes, Sir. A White Paper containing a statement of His Majesty's Government's Policy in regard to Burma will be available in the Vote Office after Questions.
Can my right hon. Friend give any indication as to when there is likely to be a Debate on this matter in the House?
I have to produce a Bill containing certain temporary provisions implementing the policy of the White Paper, and I also have to introduce a Resolution before 9th June. Therefore, an occasion for Debate will no doubt arise before that date.
Business Visits to United Kingdom (Visas)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what priority is given in the granting of visas to business men and technicians from foreign countries, whose visit is sponsored by the appropriate British Embassy abroad, who desire to visit this country for the purpose of purchasing our goods.
Every application for a visa for a visit to this country is dealt with as rapidly as possible on merit, in consultation with any other Government Department which appears to be concerned. There is no numerical limitation on the grant of visas, and no question of priority for any particular class of application therefore arises.
Will my right hon. Friend make every effort to expedite the granting of visas to these men who wish to come to this country to buy our goods, so that the right kind of impression is gained, and long delays are no longer allowed?
Yes, Sir. I will do anything I can in that way. If the hon. Gentleman has any particular cases in which he thinks there has been undue delay, if he will let me have particulars, I will look into them.
Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that one very vexatious aspect of the matter is that on each separate visit the same long information has to be given? Could he arrange that when once a man has been granted a visa, subsequently it will be much more simple for him to visit this country?
I will consider that. I imagine it would depend on the time at which we had, so to speak, come to recognise him as an established visitor.
Boarded Out Boy's Death (Inquiry)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now received a report from Sir Walter Monckton on the circumstances leading to the death of Dennis O'Neill at Bank Farm, Minsterley; whether he proposes to publish this report; and whether he has any statement to make.
As I stated in reply to a Question by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Charles Edwards) on 10th May, I have received the report and arranged for its early publication. Any statement will be more appropriately made after the report is in the hands of hon. Members.
Civilian Casualties, London
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the number of civilians killed during the war by enemy action in the London region and the number wounded.
The civilian casualties due to enemy action in London Region during the war in Europe are—
Is it possible to give figures for individual boroughs?
That raises rather more the security issue, but I will look into it if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will give me time.
What is the security reason now?
Channel Islands (Situation)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can now make a statement as to the position in the Channel Islands.
In view of the length of the answer, I will give it at the end of Questions.
Later:
Yes, Sir. I am glad to take this early opportunity of reporting to the House on the situation in the Channel Islands as I found it on the visit which, with the hearty approval of the Prime Minister, I, accompanied by my Noble Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, have just made to Guernsey and Jersey. As I told the States of both islands, I came immediately upon their liberation as the member of His Majesty's Council most closely concerned with Channel Islands affairs to express to the islanders the sympathy of His Majesty's Government and of the whole country in the ordeal through which they have passed, to obtain at first hand information as to the conditions obtaining in the islands and to assure them of our desire to help them in every way we can. I wanted, too, to learn at first hand of their experiences under enemy occupation, and to discuss on the spot the problems which immediately face them, and to invite suggestions as to how the Government can best help them.
I am glad to be able to tell the House that I found the situation very much better than might have been expected. The liberating forces under the command of Brigadier Snow had already made excellent progress with the distribution of the supplies brought with them and with the assembly and removal of the German garrisons. It was, I can assure the House, a great pleasure to see our soldiers engaged on both of these agreeable tasks. Postal communications with Great Britain have been restored. Though reduced in numbers, the herds, which are so important in the economy of the islands, are still intact. The most cordial relations have been established between Brigadier Snow and the islands authorities, and they are working together in complete harmony. The warmth of the expressions of loyalty to the Crown which the islanders voiced and the cordiality of our reception were moving in the extreme.
I explained fully to the States the necessity, in the interests of the Islands themselves, of withdrawing the British Forces in 1940 and the reasons for refraining, after D-Day from retaking the Islands by force in order to spare them the destruc- tion which such an operation would inevitably have involved. It was clear that these courses were both understood and approved. As regards material conditions, the health and physique of the population are on the whole better than I at least had dared to hope, and I was in particular impressed by the healthy appearance of the children whom I saw. This is in large measure due to the supplies which during this grim winter the Islanders received from the British Red Cross and Order of St. John through the agency of the International Red Cross, and I was assured that, but for the timely arrival of these supplies, for which the Islanders expressed their deepest gratitude, the situation would have become very grave indeed. Although the Germans took a considerable share of the local produce, so far as I was able to ascertain they did not attempt to divert the Red Cross supplies to their own use, and the conditions under which the German garrison was living were worse than those of the civil population. I was told that in some cases the German garrison was reduced to eating cats and dogs.
While there seems to have been a gratifying absence of the grosser and cruder atrocities associated with the Nazis, I saw plenty of evidence of the wanton damage which the Germans did to houses and other property, including the sea wall and the slips, and of the filthy condition in which they left premises they occupied. This was even true of the hospitals. I heard too at first hand something of what the brutal and senseless deportations of 1942 and 1943 meant in terms of unnecessary human suffering. On the whole, however, the treatment of the Islanders seems to have been comparatively favourable, and they themselves were inclined to attribute this at least in part to the conviction which dawned on the Germans towards the end that it would not be long before the British were back. But no one who has not lived under the Nazi yoke can fully appreciate what it means to an independent and proud people, and, as I was told, the liberation came like the awakening from a nightmare.
For the future, the discussions which I had about the further measures immediately necessary for the rehabilitation of the Islands were most useful. The Islands authorities expressed their appre- cation of the assistance they have already received from the liberating Forces, and I promised that their requests and suggestions for further help would have the most urgent and sympathetic attention. I, of course, assured them again that the military government would be brought to an end as soon as it had finished its work and that the ancient rights, privileges and liberties of the Islands would then be restored in full. In conclusion, I am sure the House will join with me in expressing our admiration for the fortitude and the loyalty which, with creditably few exceptions, our kinsfolk in the Channel Islands have shown during these long and hard years, and for the courage and devotion to duty with which the bailiffs and other Crown officers have discharged their arduous and sometimes dangerous responsibilities during every phase of the Nazi occupation—from the dark days of 1940 when the German invaders landed to the bleak winter just ended, the rigours of which were mitigated—it is true—by the knowledge that even to the Germans themselves it was clear that complete and absolute Allied victory was certain and could not be far distant.
While congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on his prompt action and personal interest in this matter, may I ask whether in the case of the poorer inhabitants, the supplies which we sent were made free, because I understand that in many cases the people would not be in a position to pay much for them?
In the case of the Red Cross supplies they did, I think, go free, and no charge was made; but of course there must come a time when, with the wholesale shipment of supplies in the ordinary way, supplies must pass through trade channels. I will keep the point in mind, but my impression is that when the Red Cross supplies finish and are succeeded by the ordinary commercial supplies these will be sold through the shops in the ordinary way.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether in visiting Jersey and Guernsey he learned anything as to the conditions in Sark?
I met the Dame of Sark, who seems to have been remarkably successful in the action taken "on her own" to keep the Germans in order. She was well and was not in any way alarmed, and I gather that Sark is all right, that the Germans are being taken care of in the ordinary way, and that the same is true of the Island of Alderney.
While I recognise that postal communication has been restored, will the right hon. Gentleman say how soon we can expect telegraphic communication and whether it is possible to introduce at an early date a radio-telephone service?
The telegraph service, so my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General informs me, is working already. The radio-telephone service is not yet available, but the Post Office are looking into the question.
Could the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether any form of co-operation is being arranged between the Minister of Agriculture and the dairy farmers of the Channel Islands, because that would seem to be very important?
I brought back information upon a number of points which I will report to my right hon. Friend the British Minister of Agriculture. There are many points in which he will be interested, and I am sure that he will do everything he can to help.
Could the Home Secretary tell us whether there is an adequate supply of doctors in the Channel Islands and if not whether he will give priority to island doctors to return?
I could not answer with precision on that point. I can only say that although I asked to be informed about the troubles and difficulties there that one was not mentioned, and I could not say anything positive about it.
Can my right hon. Friend say anything further about the Island of Alderney, and, whether the population, which I believe was almost wholly evacuated, is likely to go back?
In so far as the population is wholly evacuated the problem is less for the time being. I understand that the German garrison have been converted into prisorers of war. As to the return of people to the island, we will facilitate it when we can do so, but I am a little apprehensive that if they try to go back too soon they may add to the problems of the people already there.
May I ask whether the German soldiers were made to clean the houses which they had defiled?
German soldiers have been put to all sorts of jobs. Our reoccupation has only taken place quite recently, and their first job is the removal of explosives from places where they might be dangerous to the civil population.
I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman saw the air ports, but could he tell us whether they are in working order, and is it likely that an air service such as we had before the war will be opened?
I saw briefly the air port of Jersey, and I can say that it is not at all in a bad condition. I cannot say when the service can be re-opened.
Could my right hon. Friend say whether his attention has been called to a report of large-scale killings of Russian and other prisoners on the Island of Alderney, and can he assure the House that until this matter has been fully investigated no Germans will be allowed to leave the islands?
A lot of Germans have already left, but I think that they are still Allied prisoners of war, so that if there were allegations of this kind to be followed up, which would be a matter for the War Office, there would be time to take action.
Did the right hon. Gentleman secure any information about the inhabitants of the Channel Islands who were alleged to have been taken to Germany, and can he say whether they can be returned as quickly as possible?
As I said in my statement, a fair number of people were deported to Germany by the Nazis. They are not back yet, but the British authorities, will, of course, take up the matter and get them back as soon as may he.
My right hon. Friend will be aware that there is a substantial number of Channel Islanders serving with the British Armed Forces. Will he therefore make representations to the heads of the Service Departments that men who have not seen their families in the island for some time may have facilities given them to visit them at the earliest possible opportunity?
It would not be right for me to make any statement on that matter, which is one for my right hon. Friends the Service Ministers, but I have begun to make arrangements whereby I hope it may be possible for the island authorities to broadcast to the troops in the hope of picking up troops from the Channel Islands and giving them the facts about the situation in the islands.
First Police Reserve (Pay)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department on what grounds the first police reserve are excluded from the pay increases and war gratuities payable to police, police war reserves and the C.D. services.
The pay and conditions of service of the First Police Reserve, are separate and distinct from those of the regular police and police war reserves because members of the First Police Reserve are for the most part re-engaged pensioners who are drawing pensions in respect of their previous service in addition to their pay. I have however received representations that their pay and conditions should be reviewed and I am considering these representations.
Is my right hon. Friend also considering the question of gratuities?
My recollection is that gratuities to the regular police did not arise, and I should not have thought they would arise in this case.
Will the right hon. Gentleman also reconsider the case of pensioners under the 1921 Act?
That is an issue far away from this.
Electoral Register
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what communication he has received about the state of the electoral register from any of the registration officers in the constituencies in which elections have been held recently; and whether he proposes to invite any further observations by them on this matter.
No such communications have been received, and I do not think that any purpose would be served in inviting observations of the registration officers concerned. Even if they had received reports from the presiding officers as to the number of omissions of would-be voters from the register, this would not necessarily be any guide as to the extent of omissions or inaccuracies in the register because, without full particulars which might not be available, it could not be established whether the names had been properly omitted or the omissions had been due to some mistake. I am aware that there have been some omissions and inaccuracies in the register, but the House, I am sure, appreciates that in existing circumstances the Parliamentary Register cannot be expected to be completely accurate.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, if the general election is held before the publication of the new register in October, it will result in tens of thousands being disfranchised, and is he further aware that it is not the view of any registration officers that it is impossible to have a supplementary register prepared?
I have made it clear, I think on four occasions, that the present register is imperfect and that the next will be better. There is no doubt about that. The difficulty about a supplementary register is that it tends to choke the preparation of the next. It is really a question of man-power and staff.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many names appear on the Business Premises Electors' Register for the Caernarvon District of Boroughs; and what was the total cost of preparing and publishing this register.
The information asked for in the first part of Question will be contained in the Return of Electorates which, as I indicated in reply to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Mr. Parker) on 3rd May, will be laid before Parliament when available. I regret that it is not possible to separate the cost of preparing and publishing a Business Premises Register from the general registration costs in respect of a constituency.
Public Mischief Misdemeanours (Convictions)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many persons have been convicted between the beginning of 1933 and the end of 1944 on indictment for the misdemeanour which is called Public Mischief.
The only available figures are for the class of common law misdemeanours involving public mischief described in Article 230 of Stephen's Digest of the Criminal Law. In this description are included many other offences besides that of causing the police to devote their time to investigating false allegations. Figures for the years 1933–39 are not available but the following are the figures for convictions on indictment for this general class of offence in subsequent years.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that every conviction for this so-called misdemeanour, which was only introduced in 1933, in fact involved ex post facto legislation by the courts in a matters that ought to be left to Parliament?
If the hon. Member wants to know anything more on this subject, I must ask him to put it down.
Do Left Wing journals come under the category of "public mischief?"
Surplus Civil Defence Equipment (Disposal)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if immediate arrangements can be made to offer C.D. stores and equipment, suitable for civilian use, at low cost, to Servicemen's wives who have difficulty in obtaining beds, blankets, kitchen utensils, tables and chairs.
Surplus Civil Defence equipment of the type mentioned is generally the property of local authorities. They are at liberty to dispose of the articles on favourable terms and for their domestic use to individual ratepayers (including Servicemen's wives) who, by reason of war circumstances are deserving of special assistance.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to circularise local authorities to this effect, pointing out the desirability of offering these goods which are in short supply?
I think we have done so but I will look into it and, if not, I will consider the suggestion.
Will the right hon. Gentleman also remember that returned prisoners of war are at their wits' end to get bedding, and will he remember them?
What I hope is that local authorities will exercise a wide discretion and give reasonable preferences.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make sure that all this bedding is thoroughly cleaned before it is offered for sale?
Yes, especially if it goes to the County Borough of Croydon.
Police Force Amalgamations
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now repeal the Defence Regulation under which the Reigate Borough Police were amalgamated with the Surrey County Police for security reasons as a wartime measure.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, as the war-time emergency giving rise to the merger of nine borough police forces in Kent with the county constabulary has now passed, will he take action to revoke the merger order in question.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, as the war-time emergency which gave rise to the merger of nine borough police forces in Kent with the county constabulary has now passed, whether he is yet in a position to revoke the merger order in question.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, now that the emergency has passed which was the reason for amalgamating certain police authorities, he will take early steps to re-examine the position.
I have on previous occasions made it clear that the future of the Orders made under the Defence (Amalgamation of Police Forces) Regulations, 1942, has been engaging my attention, and I hope shortly to be in a position to put forward proposals with regard to general policy relating to the amalgamation of police forces. I shall not however be in a position to do so until my discussions with the County Councils Association and the Association of Municipal Corporations on the various question at issue have made further progress. In the meantime, I do not think that pending the determination by Parliament of the general existing policy of amalgamation, it would be desirable or would conduce to police efficiency if the existing schemes were immediately brought to an end.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the recommendations of the Select Committee on the subject?
Certainly. I am very familiar with those recommendations.
Is it not a fact that the police sub-committee of the Association of Municipal Corporations has already endorsed this request, and is it not a fact that this merger was purely due to the war emergency, which no longer exists?
I should not be surprised if the hon. Member is right, but discussions are still proceeding and I have not made up my mind how to handle it.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that such measures as these, which were introduced for war purposes, would be rescinded, with the end of the war in Europe?
On this subject I used the most careful language.
Double Summer Time
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the interests of agriculture, he will reconsider the question of double summer time.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the termination of the war in Europe, he will abolish double summer time forthwith.
In announcing the Government's decision that there should be a period of Double Summer Time from 1st April to 15th July I explained that Double Summer Time makes a substantial contribution towards alleviating the acute difficulties of the shipping situation and of inland transport. The end of the war in Europe means an immediate increase of the Allied effort in the East; and, while the Government have been most anxious to mitigate the difficulties of the agricultural community, as shown by their desire to avoid if possible an extension of the period beyond 15th July, it is not thought that the cessation of European hostilities provides a ground for shortening the period.
Is it now intended to revert to Greenwich time in October?
That was the provisional intention of the Government, and personally I hope very much that it will be carried through.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will have some regard to farmers in this matter. We want all the food that we can get.
I always think of the hon. Member in these matters.
Is it not the case that the Government are somewhat pledged to the abolition of Double Summer Time in the near future?
I think it is fair to say that in some measure the Government are committed in principle to take a favourable view of the abolition of Double Summer Time at the end of this year.
Volunteer Part-Time Constables
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now prepared to release the volunteer part-time constables from the duty they performed during hostilities in Europe.
I hope to be able to make an announcement on this subject at an early date.
Housing
Liberated Polish Citizens (Employment)
asked the Prime Minister whether, before taking the decision to employ German prisoners of war in helping with our rebuilding programme, any invitation had been conveyed by the Government to liberated Polish citizens, who are, at present, unable to return to their own country, to volunteer to come here and do similar work.
I have been asked to reply. The answer is "No, Sir."
Does not my right hon. Friend think that by allowing a certain number of these liberated Poles to come over and work here, it will be both doing ourselves a good service and helping some of our brave Allies?
This is a separate issue from that of the employment of prisoners of war. Certain arrangements are being made to find useful opportunities of service for our Polish Allies, but it is important not to confuse them with the issue of the employment of prisoners of war.
Land Acquisition
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Taunton Town Council has scheduled for acquisition land for building 470 houses in the northern borough and for 300 in the eastern district; what is the area and rateable value of each of these sites; whether they are being acquired by compulsory purchase or private treaty; and what price is being paid.
The area of the northern site is 59½ acres; the land is derated, except for some small houses, of which the rateable value is £24. 33¾ acres of this land already belong to the town council; the remainder, less a small area excluded from the confirming Order, can be acquired compulsorily, but the price is not yet determined. The area of the second site is 47¼ acres; the land is derated, except for a few buildings, of which the rateable value is £148. Although all the land was scheduled in a Compulsory Purchase Order, 45½ acres have been purchased by agreement for £7,172.
asked the Minister of Health whether a proposal by the Buckingham County Council to purchase the 1,071 acres of Langley Park and Black Park for the sum of £109,000 or other figure has been approved; what was the previous rateable value of the land with buildings, if any, thereon; how many councils are concerned in this purchase; and how much each is contributing toward the total cost.
I have received no application for consent to a loan for this purchase and purchase out of revenue does not require my approval. Most of the area is woodland or agricultural land and therefore derated, but the aggregate rateable value of a number of properties included in it is £905. Four councils are concerned, but I understand that the contribution which each is to make towards the total cost is not yet finally agreed.
Repairs (Applications)
asked the Minister of Health under what circumstances his regional officers have authority to come to a final decision as to applications submitted to them with regard to housing repairs; and under what circumstances such applications must be referred to London before a final decision can be made.
I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the relevant circular and instructions.
Homeless Evacuated Children
asked the Minister of Health what policy is adopted by his Ministry with regard to the return home of evacuated children in cases where their pre-war residence has been destroyed or their parents have disappeared.
Evacuated children whose pre-war homes have been destroyed or whose parents have disappeared will continue to be cared for in the reception areas until their parents can be rehoused or other suitable arrangements made for them.
May I ask how parents who have disappeared can be rehoused?
Questions
War Crimes
asked the Prime Minister if he will endeavour to secure agreement amongst the Allies to prevent Nazi war criminals such as Goering from giving Press interviews.
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which my right hon. Friend gave yesterday in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling).
Is my right hon. Friend in a position to say that swift justice will be brought to bear on this loathsome criminal?
I hope so.
asked the Prime Minister whether information has yet been obtained as to the whereabouts of Ribbentrop; and whether he will give an assurance that every step is being taken to arrest and bring him to justice.
The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's Question is "No, Sir"; and the second part, "Yes, Sir."
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the appointment by the President of the U.S.A. of Associate Justice Jackson, as the U.S. representative and chief of council in preparing and prosecuting charges of atrocities and war crimes against such leaders of the European Axis Powers and their principal agents and accessories as the U.S. may agree, with any of the United Nations, to bring to trial before an international military tribunal; whether he proposes to make a similar appointment on behalf of Great Britain; and when trials may be expected to begin.
Yes, Sir; the appointment of Judge Jackson has been brought to my attention and consideration is at the moment being given to the apppointment of a representative of the Government of the United Kingdom to make arrangements with Judge Jackson and representatives of the other Allies for preparing and prosecuting the charges referred to by my hon. and learned Friend. I cannot at present say when trials will begin, but the preparation of these charges and the making of the necessary arrangements for trials involve consultation with our Allies, and this is bound to take a little time.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the proposed appointee will be a person of comparable standing to that of Mr. Justice Jackson? Will he say also why there should be any further delay, as the preparation of these trials has been going on for such a long time?
I think I can give the assurance that my hon. Friend asks for in reply to the first part of his question. As regards the second, a certain amount of international consultation is required, but I hope that it will not take very long.
asked the Prime Minister if Admiral Doenitz is to be tried as a war criminal; and if he has yet been arrested.
The question of Admiral Doenitz's guilt in connection with war crimes is under investigation. According to newspaper reports he has been arrested.
Polish Forces (British Nationality)
asked the Prime Minister whether his assurance that under certain circumstances British nationality will be available for personnel of the Polish forces applies to women members of the Polish forces as well as men.
If the conditions are similar, sex will not be a bar.
Will women of the Polish underground army be eligible?
I doubt whether that is a matter for my jurisdiction.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether any replies have been received from the Dominion Governments on this matter of according British nationality to these people?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will put that question down.
Members of Parliament (Salaries and Expenses)
asked the Prime Minister if he is yet in a position to make any further statement on the subject of pay and expenses of Members of Parliament.
I can at present add nothing to the answer which was given to the hon. Member on 20th March last.
Can the Leader of the House give some indication of when he thinks he might make a statement, more particularly on the matter of expenses such as postage and secretarial expenses?
I am afraid I cannot. The matter has been looked at because of representations which the Government have received, but I cannot go beyond that at present.
Is it not likely that this Government will be best able to deal with the matter in view of the fact that it is embarrassing for a normal Government, which is not a Coalition Government, to do anything about it?
I feel that even a party Government might do right from time to time.
Agriculture
Long-term Policy (Discussions)
asked the Minister of Agriculture on what date his Department's discussions with the National Farmers' Union and other interests on long-term agricultural policy began; how many meetings have been held and how frequently they are being held at present; and when it is expected that the discussions will have been completed.
Discussions of an exploratory character on various aspects of agricultural policy both in the transitional period and thereafter have taken place during the past 18 months. An important feature of the discussions was the procedure for fixing agricultural prices during the next few years, the first results of which were announced on 7th March last. Discussions will be continued on other aspects.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how long they are likely to go on and when he will be able to make the long-awaited statement of policy?
No, Sir, I am afraid I should have to have the gift of prophecy before I could do that.
Can we know whether the result will be beneficial to the farmers, because that is the only thing that matters?
Farm, Derbyshire (Rent Arrears)
asked the Minister of Agriculture the amount of rent owing by the Derbyshire War Agricultural Executive Committee to Mr. J. Twigge, the dispossessed owner-occupier of the Moat Farm, Atlow, Derbyshire, and the date of the last payment.
The net amount owing to Mr. Twigge up to the 25th March, 1945, is £113 14s. 4d., and the last payment on account, pending receipt of the award of the General Claims Tribunal, was made on 31st October, 1944. The award was issued on 20th February, 1945. It was not until 8th May that the Derbyshire War Agricultural Executive Committee received particulars of the amounts of Income Tax and Land Tax which fall to be deducted from the compensation. The receipt of the required information will now enable payment to be made.
Milk Marketing Board Decision (Appeal)
asked the Minister of Agriculture what action he proposes to take in the case of the dispute between Mr. Frank Gadsby and the Milk Marketing Board, of which particulars have been sent to him.
Mr. Gadsby exercised his right of appeal to arbitration. I have no power to intervene in the arbitrator's award which, I understand, upheld the decision of the Milk Marketing Board.
Is it a fact that the Milk Marketing Board can impose fines and penalties and that there is no appeal to an independent British court of law? Is not that contrary to the traditions of British justice?
As I informed my hon. Friend in reply to a similar Question a short while ago, the whole question of the power of the Marketing Board to impose penalties on registered producers and the procedure to be adopted for this purpose, was investigated by the Falmouth Committee, which reported in 1939, just before the normal activities of the Board were suspended on the outbreak of the war, and they endorsed the principle of the Marketing Board having power to impose penalties.
Is it competent for anybody outside the House to support such a principle? Is it not a matter for this House?
Is not the whole thing most unconstitutional?
German Prisoners of War
asked the Minister of Agriculture why the large numbers of German prisoners of war now in our hands are not being used to bring in this year's harvest, so avoiding any need to appeal for thousands of volunteers from among the civilian workers and the schoolchildren of this country.
Considerable numbers of German prisoners are already employed in this country, mainly on agricultural work, and I hope that arrangements will be made for the number to be increased. German prisoners must, for security reasons, be accommodated in properly constructed prisoner-of-war camps and can be employed only within a limited area of the camps. Harvest work calls for a very large number of workers over a relatively short period of time. It would not be practicable, because of shortages of proper accommodation, transport and armed escorts, to employ on harvest work the whole of the German prisoners in this country. The problem of getting in the harvest cannot therefore be completely solved by an increased use of Germans; Subject to the claims of other urgent work, everything will be done to-make the maximum use of German prisoners. When I issued my appeal at Easter for volunteer labour, I had taken into account to the full the help, to which I have referred, that we might expect from German and Italian prisoners. The need for maximum response to my appeal remains, therefore, as great as ever.
Will my right hon. Friend see that the distribution of these camps is, as far as possible, where labour is most required?
Yes, Sir, but it is clear that we cannot put German prisoners into the several hundreds of voluntary labour camps which are dotted about the country, which have very little accommodation, which are not wired, and for which we could not provide escorts.
Could my right hon. Friend give the figures of German prisoners whom he hoped would be available when he made this appeal?
We have got about 50,000 and we hope to increase them, so that the total will be far in excess of that, but even if I had a lot more, it would not remove the need for the maximum voluntary labour that I can get.
How many British soldiers will be needed to guard the 50,000 German prisoners?
It depends on the size of the parties in which they are sent out. Clearly, the larger the party the smaller the number of soldiers, but if you have a large party of Germans it is not anything like as economic from the farmer's point of view as if you have a larger number of smaller parties. If you have a larger number of smaller parties, the number of escorts required will be greater.
Is it not perfectly obvious that, as we shall be needing food very badly in the forthcoming winter, it would be very much better if all these men, both English soldiers and Germans, were cultivating the land and providing food rather than producing less food owing to the one having to guard the other? Is it not a fact that General Eisenhower is urging German soldiers to go back to the land?
That is in Germany.
Send these men back to Germany.
Will my right hon. Friend consider asking volunteer Poles to give help with the harvest?
Farm, Essex (Water Supply)
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will expedite the permit required by a farmer, of whose name and address he has been informed, to undertake a building and water scheme, approved by the Essex W.A.E.C., in view of the fact that several heifers from this farmer's herd have already died as a result of drinking impure water, and that in the immediate future no pure water at all will be available on his farm.
The necessary inquiries have been completed, and a licence in respect of the building part of the scheme was issued by the Ministry of Works yesterday. My Department will issue a licence in respect of the controlled material required for the water supply scheme.
Questions
Dog Owners (Fines)
asked the Minister of Agriculture if his consultations with regard to dog owners who pay £1 a day fines to keep their dogs alive have now reached any conclusion.
Yes, Sir. My information is that the number of cases in which dog owners are prepared to incur the penalty of £1 per day rather than obey a court order for the destruction of a dangerous dog is few. In any event, legislation would be necessary to provide for an alternative penalty, and I understand that it is not possible to hold out any hope of legislation on this subject.
Will not my right hon. Friend suggest that magistrates might remit the fines if the dogs were sent to a quarantine station, where they could not do any harm, and so prevent the law being brought into contempt by the imposition of such fines?
That question should be addressed to the Home Secretary.
Northern Ireland, Travel Restrictions (Removal)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now make a statement about travel restrictions between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Yes, Sir. Broadly speaking, they are abolished. From today, any British subject normally resident in the United Kingdom is at liberty to travel freely in either direction between Great Britain and Northern Ireland on production of the identity document known as a Travel Permit Card, issued either by the Passport and Permit Office in Great Britain or the Northern Ireland Permit Office in Belfast. Anyone who holds one of these documents issued or renewed in the last three years and wishes to travel has only to obtain a sailing ticket from the railway or shipping company. I must retain the power to withhold the issue of such cards in individual cases for special reasons, such, for example, as any attempt, by persons between the age of 18 and 30 to avoid national service, but subject to this, there will be no restriction on travel by inhabitants of the United Kingdom. There will still be some formalities to comply with at the ports in Great Britain. Passengers will have to show these travel documents on arrival or departure in order to establish that they belong to the United Kingdom, and they will also have to fill up a landing or embarkation card, which is required for national registration and food rationing purposes. We shall do all we can to minimise the delay and inconvenience at the ports and we hope that we shall be able to pass passengers through the control very rapidly. My Noble Friend the Minister of War Transport will improve the cross-Channel services as it is possible to withdraw suitable ships from war duties and to re-convert them for this service; but it will be some time before normal facilities can be provided. Meanwhile the issue of sailing tickets is necessary to ensure that the numbers travelling to the ports to embark do not exceed the capacity of the ships.
These relaxations of the restrictions do not apply to travel in either direction by citizens of Eire or to travel between Great Britain and Eire. On these matters I shall no be in a position to make a statement till late. On the occasion of the withdrawal of the restrictions applicable to Northern Ireland, I must again express the appreciation of His Majesty's Government of the public-spirited acceptance of these necessary restrictions in the national interest by the people of both countries and particularly of Northern Ireland, on whom the hindrance to communications with the rest of the United Kingdom has borne most hardly.
Am I right in assuming that it is still the fact that nobody can travel unless he has a travel permit; and if he has not got a travel permit he has to go through the whole paraphernalia of getting one?
It is true that if he has not got one he will have to get one. I must have some check on people because there may well be some whose passage we should have to stop. But I can assure my right hon. Friend that any British subject normally resident in the United Kingdom will, in the ordinary way, be able to get a travel permit without difficulty, provided there are no special difficulties which make it desirable that be should not travel.
For how long is it proposed to continue this system?
We are at war with Japan and there is a Japanese Legation in Dublin. That must be faced. I thought I had met my right hon. Friend very handsomely, and I expected a bouquet from him straight off.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether his reply is confined to Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and does not apply to the Continent, or to the Channel Islands?
No, Sir, not at this moment. This question concerns Northern Ireland.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what hindrance there is to a person in possession of a travel permit to Northern Ireland who may wish to proceed to Eire?
That is another question. People will get permits on condition that they are going to Northern Ireland only. I admit evasion will be possible, and all we can hope is that the Northern Ireland police will be effective for the purpose, but there may be some difficulties. If they do go to Eire and I find out they will be in trouble.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that anybody going into Northern Ireland has no difficulty whatever in boarding a train and going to Southern Ireland; and can he take steps to avoid that?
I cannot arrange for the patrolling of the borders of Northern and Southern Ireland by a great body of men. It is impossible. I merely say that if anybody breaks the conditions he will be in difficulties of some sort.
Dominions' War Efforts (Films)
asked the Minister of Education if he will arrange for films showing the part taken by the Dominions in this war to be exhibited in all schools where local authorities refuse permission to schoolchildren to take part in Empire Day celebrations.
I feel sure that the local education authorities, with whom responsibility in this matter rests, are alive to the importance of the exhibition of films of an educational character. It is not part of my functions to give directions of the type suggested in my hon. and gallant Friend's Question.
Would the right hon. Gentleman, particularly at a time when the country is full of Empire troops who have come here to fight, do all he can to encourage the local authorities to allow children to go to the Empire Day celebrations?
Certainly, we will do all we can to encourage a study of the Empire, but we also do all we can to respect the wishes of local authorities.
Public Health
Ex-Service Personnel (Neurosis Cases)
asked the Minister of Health what organisations have been appointed by the Board of Control to deal with the after care of members of His Majesty's Forces discharged from neurosis centres as well as mental hospitals.
This work is undertaken by the Provisional National Council for Mental Health in collaboration with the Mental After-care Association.
Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman consulted the ex-Servicemen's Welfare Association on this point, and do they agree that the steps which have been taken are adequate?
Yes, Sir, I have had discussion with that association. They have had some anxiety about the matter and I hope I satisfied them. I myself feel that this work is useful.
Mental Hospital Patients (Classification)
asked the Minister of Health whether non-certifiable ex-service and civilian people, who accept treatment as voluntary patients under the Mental Treatment Act of 1930, are placed with certifiable cases in mental hospitals.
Patients in mental hospitals are classified primarily according to their mental condition and conduct and not according to their status. Most voluntary patients are in fact placed in reception units or admission hospitals where they are not in contact with chronic cases.
asked the Minister of Health how many Service men and women suffering from mental and nervous trouble are at present in civilian mental hospitals and other buildings such as Mill Hill school; and what post-war arrangements are being made to deal with these patients.
Members of His Majesty's Forces suffering from mental illness are dealt with by the Medical Services of the Forces, and some accommodation in civilian mental hospitals has been especially assigned to those Services for the purpose. In the neurosis centres provided under the Emergency Medical Service there were on 31st March 994 male and 149 female Service patients. As regards the second part of the Question, arrangements for dealing with patients whose illness is attributable to, or aggravated by, war service, are primarily the concern of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions. Other cases will have the same facilities for care and treatment as are available for members of the civil population.
War-time Nurseries, Fulham
asked the Minister of Health whether he has reached any decision as to the length of time he intends to keep open the existing day nurseries in Fulham; and whether he will give an undertaking that no change will be made until all the mothers concerned are released from war work.
I cannot give an undertaking in the form suggested by my hon. Friend, but I have no intention of closing war-time nurseries so long as the need for which they were provided continues. As to the need in any particular case, I am advised by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service.
Is the Minister aware that there is acute anxiety among mothers concerned, and will he err on the side of leniency before he closes down any nursery?
I hope my reply will dispel that anxiety. I must try not to err in any direction. I think the terms of my answer are clear.
Are we to understand from the Minister's reply that so long as a demand for women labour exists, which may be for many years, these nurseries will remain open?
Such a course would require legislation. These war nurseries are a war-time arrangement.
Water Supply Scheme (Bromsgrove)
asked the Minister of Health whether he is now in a position to approve the scheme of the Bromsgrove Urban District Council under the Rural Water Sewage Act, 1944, for the supply of water to Worm's Ash and other areas in the neighbourhood.
No, Sir. The urban district council have sent me their scheme in outline but are awaiting the observations of the county council on it before submiting it for my approval.
Will my right hon. and learned Friend do his utmost to expedite sanction when the time comes? Is he aware of the tremendous difficulties under which people are labouring owing to shortage of water and the diminishing quantity which is available?
That Bill was the first Measure which I introduced, and the House approved it in the form that the views of the county must be obtained. These matters cannot be looked at from the position of one urban or rural district. Until the time arrives I really cannot say what will be the position of this scheme.
National Health Service
asked the Minister of Health whether he has any statement to make on the results of his discussions with the negotiating committee of the medical profession on the National Health Service.
I do not think I can usefully make any statement at this stage.
Is not the Minister aware of the greatly increased urgency of this matter in view of demobilisation? Is it not extremely important to the civilian population and will it not be a grave injustice to doctors who are being demobilised if arrangements are not made prior to their demobilisation?
My hon. Friend may be aware that I am meeting at an early date, possibly for the last time at this stage, the negotiating committee, and I shall then be in a position to relate their views to the views of the local authorities and to discuss the matter with my colleagues.
Is the Minister aware that many Members on this side of the House regard with disfavour these negotiations which are being conducted behind the scenes—[HON. MEMBERS: "No"]—that this view is also held by enlightened medical organisations outside—[HON. MEMBERS: "No"]—and that it is time that the Minister clarified the position?
Is it not in perfect order in any organisation of workers, medical or other, and an establish trade union practice, for reports not to be required during the process of negotiations?
Will the Minister provide the House with figures showing the rate of casualty among Government White Papers?
If I put a Question down to the Minister in a week's time, will he be in a position to answer it—[HON. MEMBERS: "NO"]—or after the Recess?
I could not say in advance.
asked the Minister of Health whether the B.M.A. representative meeting has accepted the alternative scheme to that outlined in the White Paper; and whether he will give an assurance that before drafting legislation along these new lines a further Debate in the House will be arranged.
On the first part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I have given this afternoon to my hon. Friend the Member for North Islington (Dr. Haden Guest). On the second part, I would refer her to the answer which I give to her Question on 12th April.
Is the Minister aware that the proposals which he made to the British Medical Association are not acceptable to many Members on this side of the House, and that if he intends to embody them in legislation they will be resisted?
I have informed the hon. Lady and the House that I have made no suggestions to the profession or anybody else which can properly be described as my proposals.
Oh.
Doctors (Shortage)
asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been drawn to the shortage of doctors in many of the evacuation areas and, having regard to the large number of evacuees about to return to those districts, what steps are being taken to reinforce the strength of the medical profession in those districts.
Any special shortage of doctors caused by movements of population of the kind referred to by my hon. Friend is a matter for consideration by the local medical war committee for the area concerned. After taking account of any doctors coming into the area, either on release from the Forces in an early age-and-length of service group or otherwise, it will be open to the local committee to apply through the Central Medical War Committee for the special release of a practitioner from the Forces, where the circumstances of the area justify that course.
Medical Officers (Appointments)
asked the Minister of Health how many pensioned medical officers from the R.A.F. have been given appointments under his Ministry during the past 12 months; and if these appointments are temporary till the younger medical officers now in the services are free to apply for permanent posts.
One pensioned medical officer from the R.A.F. has been appointed to my Department during the past 12 months and he has since resigned. Such appointments are made on a temporary basis pending the resumption of normal permanent recruitment.
As Minister of Health, will my right hon. Friend watch the interests of young medical officers in the Services to see that appointments are open for them when they return?
I answered a question to that effect about a week ago.
Questions
Civil Service (Marriage Bar)
asked the Minister of Health whether he will reconsider the case of a woman, aged 53, whose name has been supplied to him, who has been refused permission to marry and continue in the Civil Service.
The lady in question was not regarded as possessing the special qualifications or experience which would have justified me in recommending that an exception should be made in her case. She is now on the staff of my right hon. Friend the Minister of National Insurance.
Why was this woman so recently promoted over the heads of many of her senior colleagues if her work was not of special importance? Will the Minister be good enough to have this case reconsidered?
I could not, without notice, give the hon. Lady any reasons for something which occurred earlier in the career of this lady. The matter has already been carefully considered.
National Finance
National Income (Sources)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give an estimate, however rough, of the amount of income derived from wages, salaries and interest on investments, respectively, during the financial years 1938–39 and 1944–45.
On a point of Order. While the Chancellor of the Exchequer is coming into the House, may I call your attention to the terms of the Question, and ask whether we shall be told how rough this estimate is to be?
I cannot define a rough estimate. Perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is now coming into the House, can do so.
Figures for the financial years mentioned are not available, but certain figures for the calendar years 1938 and 1944 are given in tables 31 and 32 of the National Income White Paper published last month (Cmd. 6623). Those tables give figures for salaries and wages, but separate figures cannot be given for interest because the division between interest and profits is not sufficiently defined.
May I ask whether the cause of the right hon. Gentleman's delay, for which he has given us no explanation, in coming in to answer the Question, was because he was cogitating over the answer?
I quite recognise the point of the Noble Lord's question. I did not know whether there had, in fact, been delay. I thought the Question had just been called. I apologise to the House for being late.
Savings Campaign (Continuance)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has any statement to make about the continuance of the savings campaign.
Yes, Sir. It is essential that the Savings Campaign should be continued as energetically as possible. For some time to come many types of goods for civilian consumption will be in short supply. Further, the Government will have to borrow large sums for a variety of purposes which will include the prosecution of the war with Japan and the needs of the State and of local authorities for reconstruction. Industry will also need to raise capital for reconstruction and development. In these circumstances, if inflation is to be avoided, and if the large national programme of capital investment which is in prospect is to be soundly financed, it is clear that saving must continue at a high level. I am confident that our people, whose savings have made such a signal contribution to our European victory, will be equally ready to save so as to complete the defeat of our enemies, and make possible the victories of Peace.
We must continue to look to the Savings Movement to give an energetic lead to the country in these matters. I have sent to all Local Savings Committees, and to the thousands of voluntary workers in the National Savings Movement throughout the Kingdom, my cordial thanks for their patriotic labours and their magnificent achievements during the war, and have asked, on behalf of the Government, for their continued and active assisance in the future and particularly during the difficult period of transition from a war to a peace economy. I am sure that the House will share these sentiments to the full.
While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reply may I ask whether he is aware that places like Hendon and Harrow are determined that there will be no slackening in their efforts?
Will the right hon. Gentleman also make it clear to those people who have invested so much in national savings that, if the controls were taken off, their savings would probably be worth no more than half of what they otherwise would be?
International Situation
Business of the House
May I ask the Leader of the House—whom we all welcome back again after what has been, I understand, a rather arduous return journey—two questions: whether he can say anything at this moment about San Francisco; secondly, whether he can tell us what the Business will be when we resume after Whitsuntide?
Yes, Sir. With the leave of the House I will make a very brief statement first, and then announce the Business for the week following the Whitsuntide Recess.
My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister and I are happy to be back in London, after five weeks' absence in which so many momentous and not altogether unsatisfactory events have taken place. I am sure that the House will not expect from us to-day any full statement on the work of San Francisco. I would only say this: Good progress has been made better in many respects than we had anticipated. I feel confident that the remaining difficulties will be overcome, and that a Charter will be agreed upon which will be a better document than that of Dumbarton Oaks. I only wish to add on this matter that, if desired, facilities will, of course, be given for a Debate on San Francisco as soon as the work of the Conference is completed.
As regards the general international situation, there is a number of serious and disquieting issues, some of them urgent. I would like an opportunity to talk these over with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and my colleagues, and at the same time the Government would, of course, consider the question of their treatment, in relation, in particular, to their discussion here. So, as at present advised, we would propose that there should be an early Debate after the Whitsuntide Recess on the international situation, and I would like to ask the House to be good enough to give us latitude to rearrange Business in the first week after the Whitsun Recess, if it should seem desirable to do so, because there has not been sufficient time to come to a decision now.
There is one other matter to which I should like to refer before dealing with Business. I was glad of an opportunity on my journey home, with the Deputy Prime Minister, as on my journey out, to have a conversation of the most helpful and friendly character with the President of the United States. I also had a full discussion of the international scene with the Acting Secretary of State, Mr. Grew, on the day before yesterday. These exchanges were most helpful to me, and they revealed, as the House will not be surprised to hear, how intimate is the understanding between our two countries, and how closely similar is our approach to the problems of the modern world.
If I may now pass to the Business announcement, the Business for the week following the Whitsuntide Recess will be as follows, subject to the possible change to which I have referred:
Tuesday, 29th May—Motion to approve the Coal (Charges) (Amendment) (No. 1) Order.
Wednesday, 30th May—Report and Third Reading of the Requisitioned Land and War Works Bill.
Thursday, 31st May—Second Reading of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Friday, 1st June—Second Reading of the Government of Burma (Temporary Provisions) Bill, and Motion to approve the continuance in force of the Proclamation made under the Government of Burma Act, 1935.
In thanking my right hon. Friend for his early and very preliminary statement about San Francisco, may I put this point to him? Realising that the Business for the date when we reassemble is in a somewhat fluid state, will he give the House the longest possible notice of any alteration of Business to discuss these very important questions?
Yes, Sir, I think that will clearly be necessary.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that reports of the proceedings at San Francisco which have reached this country through the Press have been very scanty, and only in the barest outline? Would my right hon. Friend consider giving Members an opportunity of reading a full report of what has taken place, of the Amendments moved, and to some extent the details of the proceedings there, which are of great interest to Members, and to the country as a whole?
I did not know about the reports here, but I know there have been other quite important events going on, which no doubt accounts for the degree of publicity that has been given. I think it will be better to allow the proceedings to be concluded, when a full White Paper will, no doubt, be laid, giving full details.
In view of the seriousness and complexity of events which are looming up in Europe, would it not be a calamity if this present National Government were to be brought to a premature close?
My right hon. Friend will realise that that is going rather outside next week's Business.
The right hon. Gentleman was good enough to say that an early opportunity would be given for consideration of the European situation. We do not expect him, in anticipation of that Debate, to make any statement on the broad principles of foreign policy, but there are many administrative questions involved, such as the zones allotted to the different Powers, of which accounts have been issued, and which have been kept secret for military reasons which do not now operate. Will the right hon. Gentleman cause a White Paper to be issued to enable us to see those details in advance of the Debate, and thereby relieve him of the necessity of including them in his speech, which will otherwise be inordinately long?
I will try to avoid the last indictment, mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. I would like to consider the point he raises, as publication of these documents is not a matter for us alone to decide. I would like to look into that.
In regard to the Business for Wednesday, 30th May, is my right hon. Friend aware that during the Committee stage of the Requisitioned Land and War Works Bill the Government gave a number of undertakings about redrafting Clauses, and none of their proposals has yet appeared on the Order Paper? Will my right hon. Friend therefore postpone that Business for one week, so as to allow hon. Members to consult together on the Government's new drafts?
I was aware of the circumstances to which my hon. Friend referred. I understand the Amendments will be on the Order Paper to-morrow, and I hope that perhaps during the Whitsuntide Recess hon. Members might find a quiet opportunity to consider them.
Bills Presented
Building Restrictions (War-Time Contraventions) Bill,
"to make provision as respects works on land carried out during the war period, and uses of land begun during that period, which do not comply with building laws or planning control"; presented by Mr. Willink, supported by Mr. T. Johnston; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 29th May, and to be printed. [Bill 56.]
Housing (Temporary Accommodation) Bill,
"to authorise the use of open space during a limited period for temporary housing accommodation, and for purposes connected therewith"; presented by Mr. Willink, supported by Mr. T. Johnston; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 29th May, and to be printed. [Bill 57.]
Housing (Rural Workers) Amendment-Bill,
"to amend the Housing (Rural Workers) Acts, 1926 to 1942, and the Housing (Rural Workers) (Scotland) Acts, 1926 to 1942"; presented by Mr. Willink, supported my Mr. T. Johnston and Mr. R. S. Hudson; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 29th May, and to be printed. [Bill 58.]
Government of Burma (Temporary Provisions) Bill,
"to make temporary provision for the government of Burma"; presented by Mr. Amery; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 29th May, and to be printed. [Bill 55.]
Inshore Fishing Industry Bill,
"to authorise the provision of financial assistance to inshore fishermen and persons desiring to engage in the inshore fishing industry"; presented by Mr. R. S. Hudson, supported by Mr. T. Johnston, Mr. Peake, Mr. Westwood and Mr. Tom Williams; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 29th May, and to be printed. [Bill 59.]
Adjournment (Whitsuntide)
House, at its rising To-morrow, to adjourn till Tuesday, 29th May.—[ Mr. Eden. ]
Business of the House
Proceedings on Government Business exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[ Mr. Eden. ]
Orders of the Day
Family Allowances Bill
Considered in Committee. [ Progress 10th May. ]
[Major MILNER in the Chair]
CLAUSE 13.—(Adjustments or exclusion in case of children for whom allowances, etc., are paid under provisions relating to the services, war injury, policemen and firemen.)
Amendment proposed: In page 9, line 42, after "Act," to insert:
"or of the Special Constables Act, 1914, as amended by the Special Constables Act, 1923."—[ Mr. Peat. ]
Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted:"
5.24 p.m.
On a point of Order. Would you be good enough, Major Milner, to explain to the Committee how the discussion is to proceed? We are now on a very limited Amendment, on which the whole Clause is being discussed. Is it your intention, that we should continue to do that, or that we should have the main discussion on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill"?
Perhaps the hon. Member will, if necessary, raise that point later in the Debate.
I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I do so, in order to explain the position of the Government in regard to Clause 13, which has already been under discussion, and the following Clause—Clause 14.
May I put this point? Under the Motion to report Progress you, Major Milner, have great power to limit discussion. One would have thought that on a Motion of this kind some further explanation was due. I would like to know your attitude on the question as to how the discussion should be carried on.
I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is moving to report Progress in order to make a statement to the Committee, as I am sure the Committee would wish him to do. The Committee will appreciate that I know little more than the Committee and when I have heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I shall be able to indicate the scope of the Debate.
It is customary for the Committee to be put in possession of the reasons why the Chairman has allowed a Motion like this to be moved. The usual form is to move to report Progress "in order to—" and a discussion then takes place. I understand, Major Milner, you are accepting the Motion, to the reasons for which you are privy, but about which we know nothing.
The hon. Gentleman must appreciate that acceptance of the Motion is entirely within the discretion of the Chair. The right hon. Gentleman informs the Chair that he desires to make a statement in regard to this Bill to the Committee. For that purpose he is moving to report Progress, and I think that is a proper reason for me to accept the Motion.
I am very sorry indeed to have a difference over this matter, but I do not understand that it is normal for private arrangements of that sort to be made.
The hon. Member has no right to make any such suggestion. There is no private arrangement of any kind. The right hon. Gentleman has informed the Chair, as he has informed the Committee, that he desires to make a statement, having regard to the position on the Bill. I was in the Chair on the last occasion the Bill was before the Committee, and I think that that is a proper reason for asking leave to report Progress. My decision is not a subject for discussion.
In defence of myself and my intervention may I say respectfully to you. Major Milner, that you have now said what the Chancellor did not say, that in view of the position on the last occasion the Bill was discussed, he now wishes to report Progress. That was the issue.
I did introduce what I said by explaining that I was moving the Motion in order to explain the position of the Government in regard to these two Clauses. I was not present during the discussion on Clause 13 last Thursday, but I have read the whole of the proceedings, and I have formed the impression, which is shared by my right hon. and hon. Friends, that it might be helpful to the Committee if, at this stage, they had a rather fuller explanation than has hitherto been possible, of the general principles of Clause 13 and Clause 14, taken together. I say "general principles" because I realise that the subject matter of these two Clauses is both technical and complicated, and I do not want to be involved at this stage in technicalities. There is, however, one main principle to which the Government attach prime importance, on which much of each of these Clauses rests. That principle is what has been called the principle of "no-duplication."
5.30 p.m.
I do not want to be unfair, but some of us have some regard to the proper conduct of Business, no matter how unpopular it may be. I put it to you, Major Milner, that what we are now hearing is a Second Reading speech on the Bill. Such a speech may be advisable, but in order to make it the right hon. Gentleman should recommit the whole Bill. We are now having a speech on the general principles of the Bill.
May I suggest that there is no difficulty in this matter? It is not necessary for my right hon. Friend to move to report Progress in order to deal with the general principles which are involved. The Committee are always ready to accept a proposal that, on any matter on the Order Paper, a general discussion may take place on the merits of the whole thing, but we are in a difficulty about discussing the merits on a Motion to report Progress.
The right hon. Gentleman was rather making a speech on the merits, whereas I understood that he pro- posed to indicate a suggested course of action to the Committee. Perhaps he would apply himself to doing that.
The course I was taking was that which I was advised was the appropriate course. I propose to make a suggestion to the Committee, on behalf of the Government, as to how these Clauses should be dealt with at this stage so as not to delay the progress of the Bill. It seemed to me that, as there had been some discussion, and as there was a Motion on the Paper to combine the substance of Clause 13 and that of Clause 14, it would be helpful to the Committee, and fair to the Government, that some further explanation should be given. There has not been any suggestion, as I understand—I am sorry I was not present when the matter was discussed, but I have read the report—of dealing with the principle that underlies Clauses 13 and 14, taking them together. [ Interruption. ] We went into the matter rather in detail on the last occasion, and I hope that the Committee will bear with me. I shall not take up much time, and I should like to explain, in order to justify the course I am going to suggest, in the interests of despatch and of fairness. I ask leave to explain, in a few words, the principles which led the Government to deal separately with the subject matter of Clauses 13 and 14.
I am sorry but the right hon. Gentleman cannot do that. On the Motion to report Progress he cannot discuss the merits of a Clause. The time to do that is on the Motion that the Clause stand part of the Bill.
Then may I anticipate what I was going to say at the end? The suggestion I am going to make on behalf of the Government is that we should at this stage formally negative both Clauses 13 and 14, on the understanding that on Report stage the Government will submit another Clause. [HON. MEMBERS: "On recommittal".] We shall see what is the right course. Let us say that at a later stage the Government will submit one fresh Clause, covering the ground which is covered in Clauses 13 and 14 of the Bill as it stands. I should like to be in a position to explain, quite briefly, why the Government think it would be convenient to take that course, because I think that, if we want to save further loss of time, and the possibility of misunderstanding, it is desirable that the Committee should understand what the Government had in mind, and now have in mind, in regard to the submission of a new Clause.
I am looking at the matter not from the point of view of the Government, but from the point of view of the Committee. I think it would be well if the Government took back these two Clauses. There are two points of view on this matter, and I appreciate that my right hon. Friend cannot make his full apologia for these two Clauses at this stage, but when the new Clause has been introduced I imagine that all the arguments can be put on its Second Reading. I hope that, in the interval, if the Clauses are negatived, as I think the Committee on the whole will agree should be done at this stage, the Government will give an undertaking to examine the arguments which have been used, and which divided the Committee, with the honest intention of trying to meet the wishes of the Committee and to produce a new Clause which will meet with the maximum of approval.
I am sure we desire to meet the wishes of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as far as possible, but the suggestion he originally brought forward that the new Clause should be introduced on the Report stage, would be quite out of the question. It is not a matter of loss of time, but of making a workable Bill. There is a great deal of work to be done, and I am sure the suggestion of combining the two Clauses in one will not meet the views expressed. We are far from wishing to judge these two Clauses unseen, but we must not be taken as entering into any understanding whatever that we will accept the Clauses which are brought forward. We will consider them entirely on their merits. We were assured on the Second Reading, first by the Minister, that it was perfectly possible to negative Clause 13 on the Committee stage, and secondly by the learned Solicitor-General that unless the Minister specifically moved to exclude certain classes under the Bill, these classes would remain in and get both allowances. If it is quite understood that we are to examine the Clauses again, we may fall in with the view that the Government have expressed to-day, but let it be understood that any loss of time is due not to the Committee, but to the Government.
It seems to me that the same principle is involved in Clause 12. Cannot something be done on Clause 12?
Obviously, if the Government have in mind substantial modification of the proposals now contained in these Clauses, it is reasonable for the Clauses to be negatived and for the Government's subsequent proposals to be discussed by the Committee; otherwise, we shall be wasting time. But I hope my right hon. Friend will realise that we on this side have been, for some months, facilitating the passage of Measures, and that many Bills have been held up by his hon. Friends behind him, who have been devoting many days to Bills which might have been passed quickly. We are not responsible for any waste of time. But we cannot agree to abandon the Committee stage on any new Clause. There is no difficulty about recommitting the Bill, and having Second Reading speeches and a Committee stage merely on the new Clauses. The Government would be amply protected, because we should not be allowed to deal with any part of the Bill which had already gone through Committee in the ordinary way. We must have a Second Reading and a full Committee stage on the new Clauses.
The Chancellor seemed worried because he could not give some indication of what the Government proposed, because he had taken the matter up on the Motion to report Progress. But before the Committee agree to the deletion of those Clauses, there will be an opportunity far a statement. There was a big Debate on the Motion "That Clause 12 stand part of the Bill," and the Chancellor will have an opportunity, after we dispose of the Motion to report Progress, to give us an indication of what he proposes to do with these Clauses. I want to stress that the Committee will require to have the new Clauses reported. We expect some improvement.
Perhaps I may try to interpret what I understand to be the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that if we negatived these Clauses and proceeded to deal with the remainder of the Clauses, then when we come to the Report stage he will move to recommit the Bill and introduce some Clause or Clauses to take the place of the present Clauses 13 and 14. That seems fully to safeguard the interests of the Committee, because we are not parting in any way with control over these Clauses. I do not know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the course of his reading, read the Debate on Clause 12.
The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that Clause 12 has gone through Committee.
We are discussing the Motion to report Progress, and I suggest that I am entitled to make a very brief reference to Clause 12. If he read, as I presume he did, not only the Debate on Clause 13 but also that on Clause 12, he will realise that the Minister gave a certain undertaking with regard to Clause 13, that if the Committee consented to pass it, in its present form, he would reconsider the matter, and he expressly pointed out that he would recommit the Bill on Clause 12, in order that the matter could still be kept within the purview of the Committee. In those circumstances, I am quite sure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not suggesting that he should go back on that pledge, so that, in fact, the Bill will be committed not only as to Clauses 13 and 14, but as to Clause 12. If that is clearly understood, so far as I and my hon. Friends are concerned, we would certainly agree to the course proposed.
5.45 p.m.
I am well aware of the undertaking that my right hon. Friend gave on Clause 12, and, of course, that undertaking will be carried out. In regard to what the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) said about some understanding being reached, may I point out that the only understanding which I suggested could be established at this moment was that the Government should go forward with a fresh Clause? I did not ask for any understanding on the part of other hon. Members in other parts of the Committee. As to the procedure to be followed with the new Clause when it is put forward, I understand that it does not rest entirely with the Government to say whether re-committal would be a proper proceeding, but I do say that the Government have absolutely no intention or desire to curtail discussion over the whole field of the new Clause, which will cover, as I have said, Clauses 13 and 14. I have no doubt that we shall be able to arrange that there shall be an opportunity of meeting the wishes of hon. Members in all quarters of the Committee for the fullest discussion. From the point of view which I was venturing to put before the Committee, the merit of the course that was suggested—of embodying certain provisions that now appear in Clauses 13 and 14 in a single Clause—is that there will be an opportunity of dealing with questions of principle which do arise in Clauses 13 and 14. I think, from my reading of HANSARD, that hon. Members were in some difficulty on the last occasion for the reason that Clause 14, which was very relevant, was not under discussion.
The difficulty we are in is that the Chancellor has now indicated the course of action which he proposes to follow, but, by the procedure this afternoon, he has been stopped from indicating what he has in mind. If the Motion to report Progress is withdrawn and we negative the Clause, there will, surely, be an opportunity on the Motion "That the Clause stand part of the Bill" for the Chancellor to say what he has in mind and for the Committee to put forward one or two points of principle involved in Clause 13, which, believe me, is quite different from Clause 14. Clause 14 covers the case of the serving soldier, and most of us on this side of the Committee would protest in the very strongest manner against that being ruled out. If the Chancellor, who is working under the disadvantage of not have been present in the Debate—and reading HANSARD does not always convey either' the arguments, or the atmosphere in which the Debate takes place—would agree to this suggestion, it would not be a waste of time, but would enable him to make his statement and allow of comments being made upon it.
The right hon. Gentleman has just made a statement on the attitude of hon. Members on his side of the Committee. I think that, in common fairness to those of us who sat right through the last Debate without being absent five minutes, I ought to say that, not only is there strong feeling on his side against cutting out the serving soldier but that we fought it equally on this side. Our view is that a family allowance should be paid to every widow and serving person. I take the view that the Chancellor and the Minister of National Insurance will carry out their promise in the best way they can, and I accept it. I have no Objection to the right hon. Gentleman making his statement on the Motion "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," but, when he makes his statement, he must be aware that it is to be subject to debate and that one or two of us might want to make some comments.
I appeal to the Chancellor to accept the suggestion made by the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) and make a short statement on the Motion, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," before we negative this Clause. The hon. Baronet the Member for Barnstaple (Sir R. Acland) had put down an Amendment to negative this Clause which has since been supported by a fair number of names of hon. Members from both sides of the Committee. We never got down to a proper discussion of the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," and, if the Government are going to reconsider what is in this Clause, there should be an opportunity of having a proper discussion of the principles, in this Committee, before we proceed to the new Clause.
I listened very carefully to what the right hon. Gentleman said, and I think he did indicate that he wanted to make plain to the Committee what the Government have in mind. I support the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot). I know perfectly well what the Government had in mind—[ Interruption ]—but have the Government kept in view what we have in mind? We want to speed up the passing of this Bill, but, if by putting off discussion to-day, we are merely going to have the Minister of National Insurance returning to the Committee with a telescoped Clause, we shall not achieve our objective. Are the Government quite certain that they know what the House of Commons has in mind; and will they be prepared to make fresh proposals in their new Clause?
I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
Might I suggest that this Amendment, which is itself narrow, is still sufficiently wide to allow the Chancellor to make his statement?
No.
If the Committee will accept my advice, I think that that course would rather narrow the Debate.
Amendment negatived.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
I am sure the Committee will bear with me if I explain the difficulty in which I find myself. I had sought, under advice, a method, which has proved unavailing, of giving the Committee an explanation of the basic principles of Clause 13 and 14 taken together. I very much doubt whether, on this Motion, "That Clause 13, as amended, stand part of the Bill," I should be in Order in taking that course. I accept your Ruling on that, Major Milner. If I am in Order in taking that course, and it would meet the general desire of the Committee, I will make the explanation now. Otherwise, I think it would be very much better if the explanation were made, as it then certainly could be made, on the whole subject of the new Clause.
The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly entitled to discuss Clause 13, and he may refer to Clause 14, but he may not strictly discuss in detail the provisions of Clause 14, though having regard to the obvious wish of the Committee the Chair will endeavour to take the broadest view possible.
Would it not be very much better, as the Government want time to reconsider the whole business, and as we want to get the main Clauses of the Bill through the Committee to-day, that, in the interests of the Committee, which desires to make changes in the original Bill, we should leave the Government time to think about it before they do something which will confine their own actions in future?
I understood that the Chancellor wanted to give an explanation on his Motion to report Progress, and he was prevented from doing so by the Rules of the Committee. He now has the opportunity of doing so by speaking, on the one Clause and making reference to the other, and I suggest that the Committee would very much like to hear him. It does not seem to me that we shall achieve much progress if these Clauses are negatived and precisely the same principles come up for discussion later. Some of us on this side also take the view that no one should regard any part of a soldier's pay and allowances as coming under the principle of no duplication, and, unless there is to be some variation of that, it does not seem to me, subject to the Chancellor's explanation, that we are going to make much progress by negativing Clause 13.
I agree with what has just been said that, after the Chancellor has made his statement, hon. Members should have an opportunity of giving the Committee some indication of what is in their minds on the Government's proposals, and the Government, accordingly, should have the opportunity of taking into account whether the new proposals are going to be really satisfying to the Committee.
6.0 p.m.
I am absolutely in the hands of the Committee and I have no desire except to be helpful, so far as lies in my power. It did seem to me that last Thursday's Debate inevitably missed certain rather important considerations. I understand that, while I have to address myself primarily to the Question "That Clause 13, as amended, stand part of the Bill," I shall be permitted to refer incidentally to Clause 14, which I think, perhaps, is made particularly relevant by reason of the fact that there was an Amendment on the paper to incorporate into Clause 13 something of what was in Clause 14. The one matter of basic principle which I wish to make clear to the Committee as far as the Government's view of it is concerned is the principle of no duplication. I would like to define quite simply what, in our view, "no duplication" means. It means no automatic aggregation of allowances payable under separate parts of what is one large national conception in respect of what I may call the same element of family responsibility.
That is not a new principle. We have, had it before. For example, when a man is both sick and unemployed, he is not given two sets of benefits aggregated together, but in the past, because of the fact that the different portions of social insurance or national insurance which we are now seeking to bring together into one comprehensive scheme have grown up separately, there have been extraordinary examples of aggregation of benefits, and some very tiresome, embarrassing and disturbing anomalies. I could illustrate what I mean by taking a rather extreme, but not a fanciful case. In any scheme covering the whole population, experience shows that a considerable combination of circumstances will arise sooner or later. Let us look for a moment at this case. A disabled Serviceman is in receipt of pension with wife's and children's allowances. He may be 100 per cent. disabled under the Ministry of Pensions rules, but he may, nevertheless, be capable of full employment. He sustains an industrial accident and is entitled to compensation and he gets children's allowances in respect of that. He may go back to work but may later become unemployed and become entitled to children's allowances under the existing Unemployment Scheme. If, in addition to that, there are family allowances, then there will be four different allowances of which that man can be in receipt. These are aggregations of money which is provided for him in order that he may live a decent life and carry out his responsibilities.
I am not seeking to be controversial. That is what we desire to eliminate, and in Clause 14 provision was made for cutting out aggregation, not by withdrawing family allowances in any of the cases referred to in that Clause, but by operating on the existing allowances under the various other Statutes. That is what was done in Clause 14. Clause 13 deals with the principle of aggregation in a different way, because Clause 13 is concerned with cases which might include the same sort of duplication of social service allowances as are dealt with by Clause 14, for example, in regard to the pensions arrangements referred to in Clause 13. But it also deals with the case of the Service man whose remuneration includes, as it happens, and it may indeed be rather by chance, something which takes the form of children's allowances. That, the Government recognise, is not on the same footing as the social insurance allowances under Clause 14. That is why that separation is made.
The question may naturally be raised, Why did you think it necessary to make any provision at all in Clause 13 for dealing with allowances of serving soldiers whose affairs have included the element of children? The subject is complicated. There are considerations which might make it very convenient to have just that liberty which Clause 13 would give to the Government to deal with the matter, subject to a report to this House, by regulation. There is the whole question of the incidence of Income Tax. I do not want to be too technical. The Government are proceeding with this Family Allowances Bill on the basis that the family allowances will be income, and will come within the scope of Income Tax. I do not go into the merits of that now, but merely state the fact that family allowances, in the case of the serving soldier, are at the present time exempt from Income Tax, and the Government think it is desirable to have liberty to look at the whole thing in connection with any future revision of Service pay, and the whole structure of Service pay and allowances is now, as has been explained, already under review. There is also a review being undertaken of police pay and allowances, and there is the question of firemen's pay and allowances, also referred to in Clause 13. We thought that it was desirable, in regard to these elements of remuneration, which I, certainly, freely admit, present different characteristics, and call for different considerations from allowances which are in the nature of social insurance, that we should have the freedom—always subject to the control of this House—to provide for adjustments.
There is another consideration on Clause 13. It will have been observed that the Clause deals not only with allowances in the nature of remuneration, but also with allowances in the nature of compensation, which brings part of Clause 13 very close to the provisions of Clause 14. Those provisions were included in Clause 13 and not in Clause 14, as a matter of practical convenience, because there is in fact a relation between Service pay and Service pensions. Service pensions have something of the character of social insurance pensions and allowances.
I have nearly finished the explanation I was seeking to give to the Committee and which, I venture to think, will be useful for hon. Members who have no particular means for considering the whole thing. If I am not out of Order in doing so, I would like to add just one word though it does, I frankly admit, relate to Clause 14 and not to Clause 13. We could have dealt with the allowances which are covered by Clause 14 in a different way. Clause 14 contemplates that the family allowances shall continue to be issued without adjustment, in a great variety of circumstances, when benefits under other schemes become payable and that no adjustment shall be made on the family allowances but on the other benefits. It may well be asked, "Why was that course taken? Why did you not leave the allowances which are payable under Statutes already in operation untouched and operate on the new family allowances?" I want to give this explanation. That course would not have been in favour of the insured population.
Why?
In the first place, family allowances are payable entirely out of the Exchequer. It is a curious argument for a Chancellor of the Exchequer to put forward. If you provide in your Statute that those family allowances shall continue to be payable in all circumstances, and that any revision that has to be made in deference to the principle of no duplication, comes under the other allowances, you maintain the charge on the Exchequer. You maintain the obligation which the Exchequer has accepted, and you relieve the funds out of which the other insurance benefits are to be paid. It is in the interests of the insured person, because it means a smaller contribution, and I tell the Committee that, if that course were not taken, the finance of Part I of the social insurance scheme would be completely upset.
But there is another consideration which hon. Members should have in their minds in favour of taking the course that we propose. The course that we propose is the only course by which you make it possible to bring family allowances into effect before the other parts of the social insurance scheme come into operation. If the substance of Clause 14 is not retained, the principle of no duplication, to which the Government, as I have said, attach supreme importance, could not be applied until the rest of the social insurance scheme had been brought into operation. That was the consideration that weighed with the Government in favour of the course of action which is embodied in Clause 14. I am obliged to you, Major Milner, for the liberty you have allowed me in giving this explanation, and I am grateful to the Committee for listening. I have given the explanation, and I suggest that we proceed as previously indicated.
I think the Committee will agree with me when I say that the Chancellor's explanation has been most disingenuous. To take the last point first, the question of whether it makes any real difference to people as a whole whether the money comes out of the insurance fund, or out of taxation, is just nonsense. It must come from the same source whatever you do. If anything is given on a wide scale, without any return of any sort, it has to be provided by the Exchequer. Therefore, it is totally disingenuous to pretend that some great principle is involved, or that somebody is going to benefit in some way or other, because the money comes out of the insurance fund instead of taxes. Nothing of the sort. The insurance fund comes out of industry, and the taxes come out of industry. The right hon. Gentleman has got hold of one thing called the principle of no duplication. That is not a principle at all. I understand, listening to him very carefully, that the word "principle" also includes lack of principle. If the Chancellor reads his speech in HANSARD tomorrow he will see that that is a correct interpretation of the meaning of what he said. He mixes up insurance payments and Insurance Acts with soldiers' pay and allowances. You cannot mix the two together. They are entirely different. The soldiers' pay, pensions and allowances are part of his contractual bargain with the State for his services, and you cannot pretent for a moment that every soldier is not entitled to exactly the same benefits as any other citizen. It is utterly untrue and disingenuous on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do so. Everybody knows that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not such a fool as to believe that you can put in the same category a contractual form of payment for a man's services to the State and lump it in with the very strong case for family allowances to every other citizen.
I was at some pains to explain why the Government had put soldiers' allowances into a different category from that of social insurance. One is in Clause 13 and the other in Clause 14, and I thought it was desirable to make that explanation.
6.15 p.m.
Do I understand from what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has just said that he will drop Clause 13 altogether? After all, an insurance payment partakes of the nature of both covenanted and uncovenanted, because the contributions are only part of what goes out in the form of benefit, and the rest comes from the taxpayers as a whole, although it is rather complicated in the matter of benefit under the National Insurance Scheme. I assert, and I think I have a very large part of the Committee with me in this, that this is one of the meanest bits of "jiggery-pokery" that has ever been advanced in this House. I think it unworthy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to come down to this Committee—which has studied this matter very carefully, as is quite obvious from what has gone already—and expect us to swallow that sort of thing, that a man making a contract with the Government for his services in the Armed Forces on certain conditions of pay, allowances and pensions, is then to be regarded as debarred from a free gift given to the whole of the rest of the nation. I hope the Committee will dig their toes in, and show this Government that they are getting fed up with this sort of legislation, which is pushed at them without any consideration, and has to be patched and patched. I think, if the Committee dig in their toes to-day, the House will get a rather better series of Bills when we meet again after the holidays.
It is pretty obvious, from what the Chancellor has said, that the new Clause which he in- tends to bring forward is likely to die the same death as the one we are discussing, because quite obviously it will contain this proposal, that a man serving in the Armed Forces shall be debarred from drawing allowance in respect of his children. What is the real difference between the income of a man in the Armed Forces, and a man in industry? The difference is that whereas a man in industry is paid so much a week, regardless of whether he is married or not, the soldier has his income divided up into packets—so much for himself, so much for his wife, and so much for his child. To pretend that that is an act of generosity on the part of the Government is quite wrong. It is nothing of the sort. It is merely an excuse to enable the Government to underpay the bachelor soldier. That is what it amounts to. I urge the Chancellor not to imagine that the Committee is divided about this; the division is between the Government and the rest of the Committee. He must bring in a Bill which is more in accordance with the feeling in the Committee.
I think the Committee agreed more than usual with the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson) and also with the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Preston (Captain Cobb). The Committee is completely united against the Government on this matter. I think that the Committee and the people believed that every child after the first was to be in receipt of 5s., and it was only when we came to study the particular details of these three Clauses in Committee that the Committee really became alive—I think they should have become alive earlier—to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury were trying to do.
I am in favour of this policy of duplication and I am not in favour of the policy of non-duplication which the Chancellor advocated. When he was finishing his speech, various hon. Friends of mine here said, "What is it he proposes to do?" It is perfectly clear to me that he will reinstate these two Clauses which at the moment he is saying should not stand part of the Bill. He would be well advised to take warning, however, because although he was not in possession of the atmosphere of the Committee last week, he is to-night, and that has to be added to what he will read in HANSARD to-morrow.
I see no real difference between the various categories that the Chancellor has tried to indicate. He mentioned workmen's compensation. He mentioned the case of the soldier with a 100 per cent. claim in the eyes of the Ministry of Pensions, who then gets full employment, and subsequently suffers an industrial injury for which he is in receipt of workmen's compensation, not only for himself but also for his wife and dependent children under 16 years of age. Anybody would have thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer made some contribution to the workmen's compensation payment, but if my recollection is correct, it is the employer who, at the moment, makes the whole contribution, in respect of which he insures against accidents arising out of, and in the course of employment. So far as cases of National Health Insurance and Unemployment Insurance are concerned, the man as well as the employer make a contribution, and only a part of it comes from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Therefore, we have no consistency about this. In certain cases it is a contractual arrangement between the soldier and the State, in another case there is no payment out by the State. In certain cases the man has paid something in the form of contributions to the Unemployment or National Health Insurance Funds, and in another case that I will now mention—the case of the child who is a beneficiary under a millionaire's will—he has made no contribution. The Chancellor has mulcted some as much as he possibly can, but nothing is said about the child who is a beneficiary under a millionaire's will who will receive the 5s. under the family allowances scheme. This case might probably be better put by somebody other than myself, but obviously the alleged principle that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is trying to impose upon the Committee to-day is one that cannot appeal to a Committee of the House of Commons, as logical and consistent as this one usually is.
While interested in the statement made by the Chancellor, I feel, in common with other Members of the Committee, that there is a danger that the obnoxious Clause 13 or a Clause in similar terms will appear again. That is what we wish to fight. Might I point out to my right hon. Friend that this principle of non-duplication was not in the mind of the Government in the same form at any rate when this Bill was brought forward for its Second Reading. Let me call attention to what the learned Solicitor-General said on that occasion on this very subject. On 8th March he said:
What would be said in any portion of the House of Commons if it were felt that a similar review was taking place on the part of a great commercial firm such as the I.C.I., to decide what portion of salaries and wages were due to some element of family allowance, and how far some instrument might be put through allowing for some reduction or modification? If the banks endeavoured to do this, if the railways got together to do this, the welkin would ring with denunciations of the mean, grabbing, scheming attitude of private enterprise towards its employees in going over the wage lists to see what element of salary was due to being a married man. The married man status is well known in agriculture, for a married shepherd gets more wages than a single shepherd. It is well known in industry, but if the railways or one of the big employers of the country went over their wage lists to see whether they could dock a man 1s., 2s. or 3s. because the Government had put into effect a 5s. family allowance, the hustings would ring with denunciations of such a proposal. People may well demand why the Great Employer should come forward asking for powers of that kind. I suggest that it will be a very difficult proposition on which to convince the Committee, now or later, and I beg my right hon. Friend to consider very seriously before he drafts and brings before a Committee of the House of Commons a Clause of that kind.
I listened very carefully to what the Chancellor had to say and I am really puzzled. I cannot make out what it all means but I have a suspicion that it means just exactly what we now have before us except that the two Clauses will become one. I want to be quite candid with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I do not think he will find such a Clause will be acceptable to this Committee. We shall have no nonsense, particularly with regard to soldiers. We are not going to accept it and we shall not give power to a Minister to make regulations, if I have my way. We have seen enough of regulations and how they get through, and how little opportunity we have of challenging them in any effective way. I am absolutely certain that this Committee demands that the Government shall come back with a Clause which will be acceptable to every Member of the Committee. It will not be any use resubmitting these Clauses under one number unless the right hon. Gentleman changes his mind regarding these principles about which he seems to think so much, and about which this Committee do not care two hoots. I think it ought to be made quite clear that we are not to be fobbed off by a rewording and a renumbering, but are prepared to accept something which will do justice to the people who have enabled us to be here this afternoon. We make that as a demand to the Government.
On a point of Order, Major Milner. I do not want to interrupt the proceedings but may I call your attention to the great inconvenience and real physical discomfort which have been caused by some- body opening the windows opposite a few moments ago? The result in my own case is that I still cannot see. It is very serious for people's eyes suddenly to have light flashed upon them. I would ask you, Major Milner, with great respect and on behalf of all my hon. Friends, to convey our protests to the appropriate authorities.
I noticed the position of hon. Members and gave instructions that the windows should be attended to.
I wish very briefly to add an expression of my surprise to that of the hon. Member for South Bradford (Sir H. Holdsworth). I assumed, as I expect the Committee assumed, that when the Chancellor made his explanation he would interpolate a new device or expedient on which the Government would proceed to dispel the disquiet which the Committee manifested earlier. Unless I am being possibly more stupid than I am normally, I have not received the faintest indication from the Chancellor's speech that anything new is to be given to the Committee. I gather that the exceptions which Clauses 13 and 14 provide are to be looked at, but as a junior Member I predict that the Government will not get away with the establishment of this alleged principle. In the minds of the Committee there is no principle; it is merely a Treasury device for a miserable piece of cheese-paring at the expense of people who can least afford it.
6.30 p.m.
The right hon. Gentleman stresses the principle of non-duplication, but there cannot be equality, and everyone on the Committee knows it. I am glad that my hon. Friends and Members on the other side are distrustful of regulations. I remember, long before I came into this House, Members on this side protesting strongly against regulations given to the Minister of Labour in connection with the Assistance Board. I know perfectly well that no matter what power is given to the Minister of National Insurance he will not dare to proceed by regulation to subtract anything from the allowance of the serving man's dependants, or from the bereaved relatives of a serving man. We are starting with an anomaly. The serving man's widow gets 33s. and a similar amount for three children, compared with the widow in the same position who receives the ordinary widow's pension of 39s. My hon. Friends say that the serving man's widow is entitled to that 66s. because it is a contract, and also because she needs it. But the widow's pension is a contract. It does not matter that part of it comes from the Treasury, it is still a contract made by the working husband. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) said that as family allowances were presented in the White Paper, and in the Second Reading of this Bill, we understood that the allowance was to be a supplementation to ease the position of any family with children. Therefore, the Committee might argue with perfect logic and force that since this is a supplementation to be added to wages, equally it must be a supplementation to any pension scheme that related to wages. If the Chancellor has no new principle in mind, or no Amendment to offer to the Committee, then this Bill will be further delayed, and the Government will have to take a thrashing on this subject.
Like other Members of the Committee, I welcome the decision of the Government to with draw these two Clauses for reconsideration because I feel, at any rate, that Clause 13 approached the question in relation to Servicemen in entirely the wrong way. It approached it in a way which was capable of the interpretation that there is one law for the Serviceman and another for the civilian. I do not, however, share the apprehension which has been expressed in several quarters, that this Clause will necessarily come back in much the same form, and I cannot agree with my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) that it may mean that the man still fighting in Burma will be deprived of his allowances. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] I will try to explain why. Family allowances are not to be paid under this Bill until after the war, in other words, for a considerable time. It should be possible, therefore, indeed, it is essential, for us to decide before the end of the war what is the proper basis of pay for our post-war Forces. I submit that the proper basis is the basis adopted in industry, that is you pay the man for the job—
I have allowed the Committee a fairly wide Debate, but I do not think we can embark on any detailed discussion of the pay of soldiers in the future.
With all respect, Major Milner, we are discussing whether the Clause which will come back to the Committee will make it possible for the soldier to be treated as a civilian as regards family allowances. The Committee object that the soldier might be deprived of the allowance to which he is entitled.
My hon. Friend informed the Committee that the provisions of this Bill would not operate until after the war. What is his authority? Clause 27 states that the provision shall come into force on such date as the Minister may, by order, appoint.
We have the statement of the Minister of National Insurance on the Second Reading that the provisions of this Bill would not come into force until after the war. [HON. MEMBERS: "Which war?"] Well, the war is still continuing and the right hon. and learned Gentleman said that he was not prepared to define what was meant by after the war. I think all of us know perfectly well that "after the war" means the end of the war with Japan. I submit that the proper way to deal with this matter is to fix what is to be the pay of our post-war Forces before the end of the war with Japan, which would also be before the date of the coming into force of family allowances. We should adopt as the basis of pay in the Forces the basis of paying the man for the job and leaving him, like his civilian brother, to look to the Government, through family allowances, to give him that assistance to which he is entitled in order to meet his family responsibilities. With regard to what the Chancellor had to say about bringing in family allowances before the date of the main national insurance scheme, I do not think there ought to be any difference in the appointed date. This scheme is one that must be looked upon as a whole; if we are to have an effective scheme we must consider the proposals as one. I suggest to the Government that it should not be any excuse to say that the appointed day—
The appointed day appears elsewhere in the Bill, and the hon. Gentleman must keep to the point of Clause 13, with the right to make reference to Clause 14, and not go into other details or merits more than is absolutely essential.
Surely the Chancellor's whole argument on Clause 14 was that it was necessary to refer to existing Workmen's Compensation Acts because there would be duplication until such time as the new Bill was introduced. In those circumstances, I submit, with all respect, that it must be very relevant and in Order, Major Milner, to discuss the question of the introduction of that Bill.
I think the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Storey) was going beyond the Rules of Order. I do not want the Committee to extend the Debate further because I think we have already extended it more than has been strictly relevant.
I will not pursue the matter any further, and will only say that I do not think we should use this sort of excuse for putting off further consideration of the main insurance Bill. What we want to do is to get schemes of national insurance and family allowances at the earliest possible date, and I think the Minister should insist that he has adequate drafting assistance and Parliamentary time to bring such schemes into effect at the same, and earliest possible, appointed day. I welcome the fact that the Clauses are to be withdrawn, and I hope that when they come back they will make it clear that Servicemen will not be prejudiced by them, that their pay will have been fixed on a proper basis, and that they will be able to look to this Bill for assistance towards their family responsibilities. I hope we shall put nothing into the new Clause, other than what is absolutely necessary, so that we may not have to deal with these matters at a later date by regulation.
When I spoke earlier I thought I had secured a partial victory, but I was optimistic. Despite the ingenious and capable way in which the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Storey) has spoken, the Chancellor's statement was to the effect that all he is proposing to do is to put into the next version of the Bill, in somewhat the same form, what he has already put into this version of the Bill. Clause 13 concerns the serving soldier and his widow; it concerns the policeman and his widow and it concerns the Civil Defence man and his widow. The Chancellor referred to duplication. What are the facts? Under Clause 13, all this duplication will continue. Take the man injured in the war. He will get his pension, as he is entitled to get it, from the Government. If he goes into industry, he will receive it under the Workmen's Compensation Act, and he will also receive, under this Clause, his family allowance. What the Government are proposing to do at some future undefined date is to take power to take that away from him. They are proposing to do that, not by the Bill, but by a regulation that cannot be altered in any sense. I know that hon. Members on the other side, like myself, are interested not merely in the serving soldier but in the injured soldier and his dependants. Duplicate payments will continue whether the Chancellor likes it or not.
Let us put this fact in cold blood, as politicians who are working in the House of Commons: No House in the future, once the 5s. is paid to a soldier, his widow, or a disabled man, will ever take it from him. The country would not let it be taken away. Hon. Members on both sides say that the 5s. must be paid for the child. The question where the father may be employed ought to be a matter of indifference. The 5s. should be paid for the second, third and fourth children. The Chancellor and the Minister ought to approach this Clause again in a new frame of mind. I say to them, do not be frightened about redrafting the Clause. Do not be frightened by thinking that the Committee will claim a victory. If they redraft the Clause and do as hon. Members in all parts of the Committee want them to do, they will prove that they are bigger men. It is the big men who change their minds and change their policies. The Prime Minister is perhaps the best example of that. He has changed repeatedly. I ask the Chancellor to give us a guarantee to-day that we are to have redrafted Clauses that will go some way—indeed all the way—to meet the criticisms that have been made.
6.45 p.m.
I want to say a few words on the speeches that have been made on this matter. Most hon. Members who have spoken have dealt with the proposals in this Clause as though they had been put forward by the Government with a view to imposing some infliction, hardship or injustice on serving men. I know that Governments do not usually get full credit for what they do, but I thought hon. Members would have a clearer recollection than apparently they have of the record of the Government in the matter of allowances to soldiers' children. The rates of allowance at the present time are 12s. 6d. I can well remember that only a very short time ago the allowance for the first child was 4s. and tapered off to is for the other children. If hon. Members are as doubtful as they appear to be of the intentions of the Government, of the purpose the Government had in view in casting Clause 14 in its present form, I will tell the Committee quite categorically that there was no intention on the part of the Government to use the power for which they sought—which was to be subject, let me remind hon. Members, to affirmative Resolutions of the House—in any way detrimental to the serving soldiers. What we had in mind was this. The structure of soldiers' pay is under review. We do not know what form it may ultimately take.
I have spent a great deal of time on these matters of necessity, and I thought that it might prove convenient that whatever payments were to be made from public funds to a serving soldier should come from one source, and not from two, on one pay day. I thought that that might prove to be convenient. In that case the whole payment would come from the soldier's own paymaster.
But the soldier will not draw these allowances.
I am considering the case of the serving men under peace conditions living with their wives and families. But if, as it appears, hon. Members are so apprehensive as to what the Government—it may be a future Government, and no one knows what that Government may be—may do in this matter, I say at once that the Government certainly will take account, in framing the new Clause, of the apprehensions that have been expressed. No hon. Member can object because the Government have not disclosed the contents and form of a new Clause that has not yet been drafted. I give the Committee the assurance that we certainly will take account of the apprehensions that have been expressed, absolutely unfounded though I know them to be. I feel absolutely justified in repudiating the suggestion that the Government, in framing Clauses 13 and 14 in the form in which they appear in the Bill, had any ulterior motives such as have been imputed to them.
During the many years' experience I have had in Committee, the position now before us is the most extraordinary I have ever known. The Government have introduced in the House and in Committee two Clauses. The Question now before the Committee is that the Clause which the Government have introduced stand part of the Bill. Usually on a question of that kind the Government argue in favour of the Clause standing part. All that we have heard so far is arguments against the Clause standing part. The reason the Government are saying that they are not in favour of this Clause standing part is that at some future time they propose to do something else; but we are still waiting to hear what else they propose to do. We have not heard one word about that, except the Chancellor's statement that the Government will take certain matters into consideration.
One thing that we did hear from the Chancellor, both in his first speech and in his second speech, was that the Government's reason for introducing this Clause and Clause 14 was that fundamentally they were against duplication; that was still the primary motive they had in mind, and they were going to stick to it. It is obvious from every speech that has been made that the Committee intends that, without any query as to what the father is getting, or whether the father is dead, 5s. shall go to the second, third and fourth children, without any reduction whatever. What the Government are proposing to do is to make an inquiry into the case of soldiers, policemen, firemen, people getting workman's compesation, and to see whether they cannot make any reduction. Why are we in this position? It was obvious from the Debate last week that the whole Committee were against Clauses 13 and 14. The Government must realise from the trend of all the speeches that if they press these Clauses forward they will be defeated. The only chance the Chancellor has is to postpone that moment for a little while, but I warn him that if he merely brings forward again Clauses 13 and 14 slightly differently worded but carrying out the principle he is standing for, the Committee will take exactly the same view then as now, and not accept the Clauses.
I imagine that, by now, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has a fairly clear view of the feeling of the Committee. Therefore, I do not intend to take up very much of the Committee's time by recapitulating the views that have been expressed. I would like my right hon. Friend to know that I share to the full the criticisms that have been expressed of Clause 13 in particular. I would not like to feel that the Committee had allowed to remain in the Bill a Clause which allowed a soldier's widow receiving by way of pension some 28s. a week—
32s. 6d. for the wife.
32s. 6d. for the wife, with 9s. 6d. for the first child, making a total of 42s.—I would not like to feel that the Committee allowed a Clause to go through which permitted a soldier's widow to receive 42s. and did not allow her to receive 5s. for her child while citizens with far larger incomes were drawing that sum. I feel that neither the Committee nor the country would accept that at any price. When my right hon. Friend reintroduces the Clauses, I hope he will not draft them on the principle of non-duplication.
It would be absurd to recapitulate what all hon. Members are agreed on, but I want to add one thing. If my right hon. Friend the Chancellor really means what he says, and is in favour of no duplication as a principle, I suggest to him that it is really an administrative convenience. The whole basis of my hon. Friend's case, built up over 20 or 30 years, is that this is an addition. Under previous allowances for children there was poverty, particularly where there were two, three or four children. This is to be an addition to any other allowances coming from other sources. I am in favour of duplication on principle. I know my right hon. Friend does not agree with that, but that is the basis on which many of us have supported this for years. If the Chancellor intends to go through with this, I want to ask him a question which I put before to the Minister. Is it now proposed to reduce maintenance grants, which are not given for educational reasons but to assist the family, for children between the ages of 14 and 16? If so, we ought to know. If my right hon. Friend sticks to the principle, the Committee will be against him on that principle, which I think is an administrative convenience.
I want to deal briefly with the principle of duplication. If the Chancellor adheres to the idea that these allowances shall not be paid to soldiers' children on the grounds of duplication, I would remind him that on every occasion when we have had arguments about soldiers' pay it has been pointed out that allowances in respect of soldiers' children were in fact part of the soldiers' pay. There is no question of duplication. A soldier receives a very low rate of pay, and he receives in addition certain emoluments which are intended to supplement that pay, because it is recognised that it is totally inadequate by itself. There is, therefore, no question of duplication. The allowances that are paid in respect of a soldiers' children are, in fact, part of an ordinary working man's wage, and to add children's allowances would not be a duplication, but would merely bring the soldier into line with every other member of the community I hope the Chancellor will realise that if he brings back the Clause in something like its present form, every Member of the Committee will be against him. I hope also he will bear in mind that it is no good trying to ride off on the argument that the Government have increased soldiers' allowances. There has been no very ready move from the Government in that matter. It is only when we have pressed that they have fought a rear-guard action and given way under the pressure.
7.0 p.m.
I do not understand why it was necessary for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to come here to-day and make this statement in face of the Minister for National Insurance, because he has made exactly the same speech that my right hon. and learned Friend made the other night. Our importunities were resisted by the right hon. and learned Gentleman precisely on the ground that the State did not wish to pay two children's allowances from two different sources, which is another way of saying that he was against duplication.
I have not made any reference as yet to Clause 14. We have not got to Clause 14. The reference to Clause 13 was on the ground that the matter was subject to review and I suggested that we should hold our hand until the review had taken place.
If the right hon. and learned Gentleman will look again at HANSARD, I think he will find that he also made a reference to the fact that the Treasury did not wish to have duplication. The Chancellor has repeated today, in a more extended fashion, what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, because he made the point that certain children's allowances were under review and the Chancellor said the same thing to-day. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said:
It is true that the Government are now sorry for having used such extremely maladroit language, because what they want now is to retain the 5s. family allowance, but to consider the existence of that allowance in discussing any change in war pensions or children's allowances under other Acts, because he said—and it was very disingenuous to say it—"I am actually doing a most unusual thing for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Instead of reducing the family allowance, which would be reducing a charge on the Treasury, I propose to make any readjustment that is necessary in respect of the other allowances but still retain the full 5s. as a charge on the Exchequer."
When I said that, I was dealing with Clause 14, and not Clause 13.
But we are considering Clauses 13 and 14 together. The fact is that it is the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to consider payments under other schemes in the light of the existence of the family allowance, and in fact, if he had not that in mind with respect to the soldiers' allowance, there is no need for Clause 13 at all. Indeed, I am supporting the proposal, which is not yet moved but I suppose will be later on, to withdraw Clauses 13 and 14. I do not want to see them again. I want no new Clauses at all. I shall be perfectly satisfied with a permanent gap in the Bill.
I think hon. Members have been making a mistake in insisting on the special position of ex-Servicemen. The greatest support that you can give to the status of the ex-Serviceman is to surround him with as many classes of categories as possible and not leave him in isolation. That is to say, I am not going to admit that there is a greater contractual relationship between the ex-Serviceman and the State than between the unemployed man and the State. To use the expression "contractual relationship" is entirely wrong. If the argument about contractual relationship was correct, we varied the contract by increasing the allowance the other day. There is no contractual relation between this House and any citizen whatever. In any case there is no stronger contractual relation between the ex-Serviceman and the State than between the unemployed man, or the man on workmen's compenastion, and the State. I should like to reinforce the point of my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). These men who will come back from the Army, who may not be entitled to any pension or allowance from the State, when they get into industry, and meet with an accident or become unemployed will be in the same position as all the rest and they will not receive a double allowance.
I want to make a special point which has not yet been made. The fact is that family allowances have been introduced partly in order to achieve duplication. Unfortunately there exists in insurance law a provision called the ceiling by which unemployment insurance assistance cannot be raised above what the man would be earning when in work. My hon. Friend and Members of his Committee, and also the report of the Assistance Board, called special attention to the difficulties arising under that provision. They said, "If we paid all the members of the family the allowances under the Act, it would be more than the man's wages. This is not a question which we can deal with within the limits of Unemployment Insurance or the Assistance Board. It is a matter for which provision should be made by a system of family children's allowances."
It has been urged over and over again that the only way to wipe out some of the existing anomalies is to have a basic children's allowance which duplicates the other allowances. So in fact you have a strong substantial actuarial argument for the duplication of allowances in this way. In 1940, for the first time in the history of workmen's compensation, children's allowances were introduced. Some of us had considerable discussion with representatives of the Home Office over that matter. We were very doubtful indeed about the proposition, because workmen's compensation had hitherto been strictly related to earnings and we were doubtful as to the proposal that children's allowances should be introduced into a Measure of that sort. They said they wanted to introduce children's allowances into workmen's compensation because they wanted to make this form of social service coherent with the rest of social service legislation. We accepted the logic of that. The right hon. Gentleman must recognise that they fixed the figure for children under workmen's compensation in relation to the figures paid in other categories—Unemployment Insurance, Widows' Pensions, and things of that sort. In other words, the amounts of children's allowance that an ex-Service-man or a man under workmen's compensation receives and the children's allowance under Widows' Pensions are related to each other. In other words, the Treasury compare one category with the other.
I am familiar with the story of the introduction of children's allowances into Workmen's Compensation. The hon. Member has not quite completed the factual survey. At that time those children's allowances were described in discussion as the precursors of a general system of family allowances, and I think that in the course of the long discussions that have taken place in regard to family allowances, the argument was put forward that they would serve to mop up a variety of existing allowances and there would be substantial savings in other directions to set against the cost of family allowances.
I certainly did not complete my factual survey, but the argument that I am now addressing to the Committee is that the children's allowances paid under other enactments will not be compared with the children's allowances that we are now legislating for. They will be compared with each other. In other words, you can take the children's allowance under the Bill as a basic factor overriding all the other schemes and, when negotiations are set up between other persons receiving children's allowances, they can continue, completely ignoring the existence of the allowances under this Bill and comparing one category with another. In other words, if future negotiations about children's allowances are going to be based upon the existence of a children's allowance, the purpose of this Bill will be cheated, because what we desire is that the children's allowance itself should be a basic assumption underlying all negotiations irrespective of whatever children's allowances are contained in other enactments. In other words, we desire that in fact the principle of duplication shall be a basic principle for all these allowances. It is the only way in which we can protect the children's allowance.
7.15 p.m.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to me, as my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay) said, to introduce a purely administrative convenience as though it were a primary argument. Has he forgotten that the other night we decided to pay family allowances to the wife? Most of the other allowances are paid to the husband. If he is going to merge them and make one payment, to whom will he pay it? To the husband or to the wife? [An HON. MEMBER: "To the father."] In that case, he will cheat us, because we have decided that it was desirable to pay this 5s. to the mother. So I think that my right hon. Friend, in his search for arguments to justify himself this evening, has gone beyond where he intended to go. I hope that the Committee will agree to the withdrawal of the two Clauses, and that it will assist on a subsequent stage in the withdrawal of Clause 12, because the same principle is contained there. Then, I hope, we shall hear no more of this arid Treasury logic by which it is sought to reduce the standard of the people of this country.
rose —
I hoped the Committee might now be willing to come to a decision.
I should imagine that by now the intention and feelings of the Committee in this matter were abundantly plain to the Government, and I would not like to detain them for a moment longer than I can help. I hope the Chancellor realises that, in the statement he made at a later stage, he aroused a certain amount of alarm, not to say despondency, when he made the suggestion that he was prepared to swallow two pills in the shape of Clauses 13 and 14, and subsequently to regurgitate them in the form of one composite Clause. I would only like to add to what many other hon. Members have said, and said categorically and plainly, that if there were any intention of such a process of mere regurgitation rather than re-creation, it would be entirely unacceptable to the Committee.
Although we have had this long Debate, it appears that the Chancellor is still intending to introduce a new Clause. There has been only one sup- porter of the Government, the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Storey). He seems to be the only one who has any use for what is contained in Clauses 13 and 14.
The point I was trying to make was that, if we took out Clause 13 as it applies to the Serviceman, it would enforce a consideration of Service pay which would have to take into account the fact that the Serviceman would draw the family allowance; and I made the point that the Serviceman should be paid on the same basis as the man in industry—
The hon. Member cannot repeat his arguments.
The hon. Member is now seeking to qualify his support of the Government.
The Chairman has said that I was repeating my arguments.
The hon. Member now seems to have qualified them, and there is thus left nobody in support of the Government. Yet the representatives of the Government are giving no indication that they will give way. I want to protest against the way in which the Government have acted in this connection. If they go on as they are doing we shall be sitting here for hours. We should have either a definite statement from the Government that they accept the views of the Committee, or a statement that they intend to go on with the abolition of duplication. We should then know where we are. We have only got a little indication from the Government that they are going to bring in a new Clause. I make my protest against this so-called principle of duplication. The Government are not so much concerned about that principle as about saving money at the expense of classes in the community which are in more difficult circumstances than people in the ordinary homes of the country, classes like dependants of the men in the Services and people in receipt of workmen's compensation allowances. It is not a matter for the Government of the avoidance of duplication so much as a matter of saving money. Otherwise, the Chancellor would be willing to get up and accept the view of the Committee. If it was just a matter of what shape our social insurance structure in the future is to take, whether we should have it of this kind of brick or of another kind of brick, there would be a willingness to accept the view of the Committee.
I am charging the Government with the desire to save money at the expense of certain sections, and it is plain that the opinion of the Committee is against this sort of thing. The fact that the child of the millionaire will get 5s. a week allowance shows that the House wanted in this scheme a system of allowances that will be free of all kinds of means test. This sort of thing happens every time social insurance is discussed, and I am sick of the way in which the Government, under the inspiration of the Treasury, always think in terms of the rotten Poor Law system, or something like that. The Government should now help us to get on to the next stage of the Bill by telling us clearly that they will abide by the opinion of the Committee and let the Clauses drop altogether.
I have been referred to inferentially in the course of this discussion as someone who does not matter. As the fate of this Bill matters very much to me, and I think to a great many other people in the Committee, I would like to make an appeal which will avoid any sort of heat and controversy and to tell hon. Members in all quarters what I am feeling about it at the present time. I always realised when I took on this very difficult job that if we were ever to reach the delectable mountains we were most surely going to have to pass through some difficult territory on the way there. At an early stage I wondered to myself how I had better proceed in order to get on as quickly as I could. What I believe would really have been the wiser course—and events have turned out to show that it would have been wiser—would have been to get down to working out the big scheme as a whole. After all, this is a mere part of one great scheme. I knew full well that that would take me a very long time, and I felt pretty certain that Members in all parts of the House who were enthusiastic to see something being done would not rest satisfied if, month after month, I simply repeated that I was doing my best to get on with the job. I wanted, and I think the House would have wanted, some concrete evidence of that.
So I cast about to see how I could best split up my task and in what order I should best approach it. The first topic I tried to take out of the mass was this matter of family allowances. Of course it is closely embedded in the whole concept, but I tried to isolate it and separate it. I believe that in all parts of the Committee Members would be glad if we could see this Bill got through to the Statute Book. But that there are very real difficulties I, for one—
I have detected, if I may say so without seeming to usurp your place, Major Milner, a tendency on the part of Ministers to assume rights that other Members have not got. Throughout the right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech he has been referring to the Bill. I have no objection to a discussion of the Bill, but if he wants to do it, I hope, Major Milner, that you will accept a Motion to report Progress to enable him to do it. We are concerned with Clause 13 at the moment, and I am only seeking guidance whether, if I am fortunate in catching your eye, I shall be able to make a speech on the whole field of national insurance in the same way as the right hon. and learned Gentleman is doing.
I presume the Minister is addressing his arguments to the Question before the Committee.
I was replying to specific questions put by the last speaker, and the Chair has said that we may take Clause 14 into consideration. I was asked whether what we are doing in Clause 14 was only a niggardly saving of money, and I wanted to answer that question. If my introductory remarks were too long and irrelevant, I apologise. I am really trying to help the Committee by telling it how the position strikes me at the present time. I was in part responsible for launching this Bill. I realise at the present time that it is rather a sickly infant, and I want to do everything I can to try and nurse that infant back into a healthy state again. Therefore, I shall certainly apply my mind and assist the Chancellor as best I can to see if there is any way out of this difficulty.
7.30 p.m.
But I think it right that I should tell the Committee, in answer to the question submitted to me, that there is, as far as I am concerned, no question of a niggardly saving of money. The Noble Lord will follow in a moment why I made those introductory observations. It is for this reason. One of the great points of the entire scheme—and I give this merely by way of illustration—is that we should get rid of the distinctions which exist to-day between health and unemployment benefit. Previously we have had, as the Noble Lord realises, of course, no children's allowances for health but we have had children's allowances for unemployment benefit. An unemployed man for his second child gets 5s. and for his third child gets 4s. The poor fellow who is sick gets nothing for any of his children. If I am to build up any comprehensive and sensible scheme, it seems essential that I must get rid of that differentiation.
I ask the Committee to observe this: if we are to say that this 5s. is to be in addition to the 5s. which we pay at the present time to the second child of the unemployed man, it will mean that for the second child of the unemployed man we are going to pay 10s.—5s. plus 5s.—and for the second child of the sick man we are gong to pay 5s. only. That follows. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] Indeed it does. I am not making myself plain. The second child of the unemployed man is getting 5s. At the present moment the second child of the sick man is getting nothing. I am not trying to be controversial; I am trying to state the case as I see it. If you think you can solve this problem by saying the family allowance should be in addition to the other allowance it will follow that there would be paid to the unemployed man in respect of his second child 5s. plus 5s. which equals 10s., whilst there would be paid to the sick man in respect of his second child only 5s.
For health.
It may be that the solution will be found by simply doling out money. I have been endeavouring to answer the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen), and as far as I am concerned it is not a question of trying to save a bit of money here and there. The Chancellor is more concerned with that, and I am prepared to do the best I can with the Chancellor. My difficulty is this, that if I am to be able to construct the sort of comprehensive scheme that I want, I must be able to secure equality in these sorts of cases. I am not talking about Clause 13 now; I fully realise the distinction between Clauses 13 and 14. I say that we shall get into a most frightful jam with the scheme as a whole, if we continue on the basis that the second child of the unemployed man gets 5s. and the third child of the unemployed man gets 4s. So far as workmen's compensation is concerned, all the children get 5s., but that scheme comes to an end in 1946. So far as the widow is concerned, for her first child she gets 5s., for her second child she gets 3s. and for her third child 3s. Let us consider the position of the third children in these classes, assuming we add the 5s.: workmen's compensation, 5s. plus 5s. equals 10s.; unemployment, 5s. plus 4s. equals 9s.; widow, 5s. plus 3s. equals 8s.; sick, 5s. plus nothing equals 5s.
If I am given that material to start with, I say to the Committee that I cannot construct a logical or sensible scheme on that. If I am to try to build some better structure than that I must clear the ground of some of these schemes, excellent schemes though they were, which were built up piecemeal like many of our towns, in an isolated way, unco-ordinated and unrelated. I must clear the ground in order that I may construct something better, and I appeal to the Committee to look at it from that point of view and not to regard Clause 14 as having gone by default or anything of the sort, for it is not until this moment that I have been able to set out the argument which has been in my mind on Clause 14. I shall do everything I can to find a solution to the difficulty which we have at the present moment.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman is stating the case of the child of the sick man, as being the person with whom he would compare the child of the man who is unemployed. Why make the comparison there? Why not make the comparison with the child of the millionaire? In this case an excuse is given for making a payment in the case of the unemployed person of only one 5s., whereas if we took the case of the child of the millionaire, there would be no reason why the children's allowance and the unemployment insurance should not be paid in respect of the same child.
I have not referred to the case of the millionaire, because it does not arise.
Yes, he gets his 5s.
We might have had this scheme like the one in New Zealand, where there is a limit of £5 10s. beyond which family allowances, are not paid. Here we have said instead, everybody will receive these allowances. They shall be subject to tax, and, believe me, when one reaches the millionaire stage there will not be much of the £13 or whatever it is left to the millionaire. Personally, I would not have minded doing it the other way and adopting the New Zealand scheme, whereby one imposes a limit beyond which no allowance is paid, but we have suggested this other scheme.
In the case of the man who pays Income Tax, in addition to the 5s. per child he will continue to have his £50 per annum allowance for the child, and therefore he will get 10s. Therefore the man on the Income Tax level will get 15s. a week allowance for the second and subsequent children.
That may be. [ Interruption. ] It is all very well to laugh. This is not an easy problem. There are in this country very many humble people to whom it matters whether we can get this Bill through or hot. We could say, "Let this thing wait over. Let us have the same day as the appointed day for Part I." The effect of that would be that there would be many months' and possibly years' delay. If we could get the Bill through, and obtain some solution for these very real problems, then this Bill would come into operation long before the other.
With regard to this doctrine of no duplication, we stated it clearly in the White Paper. I think I have read every book there is to be read on this subject. Every writer and every group of people who have considered this matter, have come to the same conclusion, namely, that the family allowances should take the place of the first 5s. payable under those other schemes. I see the hon. Lady the Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone) shaking her head. In her book, which is a most excellent book in the Penguin series, she shows the savings which would be effected by family allowances. Her position is quite plain. I do not want to get controversial; I do not want to lose my Bill. I want the Committee on all sides to help me and not to make it more difficult, but to see if we can save this Bill. I was going to add this. With regard to our statement in the White Paper that we were in favour of no duplication, I would mention that I have had a very large number of deputations, and I have seen everybody who wanted to come and see me, but I have never had any deputation, memorial, letter or protest from anybody in industry against the principle of no duplication. That being so, I thought it right to say so to the House so that hon. Members will not regard this matter as one which is a mere niggardly saving of money by the Government, or in which there is not a very real problem which to the best of our ability we have to surmount. I would ask the Committee, if they share with me, as I believe they do, my hope that I may yet save the life of this Bill, not to make it more difficult by saying further things about our being niggardly and mean but let us get on with the job.
Before the right hon. and learned Gentleman sits down, would be answer a question? We have never been given any clear idea of what would be the difference in the estimated cost of the Bill if all these pettifogging cuts were dropped. If the Clauses which exclude certain classes of people were dropped, how many millions would it add to the cost of the Bill? [ Interruption. ]
We cannot have an intervention of that kind.
I was going to ask—
Answer.
The Noble Lord need not resume his seat if he wishes to speak. I did not interrupt him. The shouts came from behind.
I would ask for the protection of the Chair. I was called, and I was about to make a speech. I was willing to resume my seat and I was told by the Minister that he did not want to speak. Now the hon. Lady says "Can I have an answer to my question?"
The Noble Lord rose and spoke as if I had been guilty of some discourtesy. I was going to answer the hon. Lady but the Noble Lord was called, and what could I do? In reply to the hon. Lady's question, I am afraid I do not know the exact amount, but I should think it is in the neighbourhood of £5,000,000. However, I do not regard the saving of money as the important thing here at all. What I regard as the important and difficult thing is the inequality which results, and if we could get rid of this £5,000,000 it would be simple, but we cannot.
7.45 p.m.
I do not believe anyone will differ from the point I am about to make. I suggest that we are now in an unfortunate position. I commence by confessing that I am the only Member of the Committee who was apparently in favour of the Government's proposals. In fact, contrary to my usual practice, I have been singularly silent during the Debate because I was so impressed by the ferocity of the opposition to the Government. I feel bound to say, with all courtesy but with complete sincerity, that my support of the Goverment has not been greatly strengthened by the speeches of the Chancellor or the right hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken. I do not think that the situation has been handled very well. My position as a minority of one is not of special interest. What is of interest is this: I would ask the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and of the acting Chief Whip to the position in which we find ourselves, of really inescapable difficulty. The Committee are unalterably opposed to the Clause. There is no question of it. The only way by which the Government can get Clause 13 through is by a Division, but the Government, wisely or otherwise, have said that they do not want to have a Division but will ask that the Clause should be withdrawn. In that case they must indicate what they propose to put in its place. Until the speech that was made just now by the Minister, it was at least possible to deduce from the previous speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the Government were willing to make some concession, but the answer of the right hon. and learned Gentleman now is that they are not prepared to make any concession on the question of principle. If that is not the meaning of it then his speech is completely meaningless.
We have had an appeal made to us to save the Bill, not the Clause, and so I say that the attitude of the Government does not make sense. They have to make up their minds to get the Clause by going to a Division and so putting some Tories and the whole Socialist Party in the slightly unfortunate position of voting against their Minister—I should very much dislike to see the Socialist Party in that position, being very fond of them—or else to tell the House what they propose to put in place of the Clause. Otherwise, this most valuable Bill which we all want to see pass into law, will not go through in this Parliament. I therefore appeal to the Government to make that simple statement. It is surely possible for the right hon. and learned Gentleman to do it, in view of the almost universal opposition in the Committee to the principle of Clause 13. If that is not a true statement of the case, I will gladly give way. Let them say they are prepared to reconsider the whole principle and will give an undertaking that in whatever form the Clause reappears it will not enshrine the principle of the present Clause 13.
I feel that I have already spoken too frequently on the subject, but in view of what the Noble Lord has just said I would like to repeat what I thought I had conveyed to the Committee, that, in redrafting Clauses 13 and 14, the Government would take full account of the apprehension which had been expressed as to the manner in which the principle of no duplication might be applied to the case of the Serviceman and analogous cases. I thought I had made that quite clear, and I now repeat it. It means that we will endeavour to redraft the provisions of the Bill in such a form that the apprehensions that have been aroused, so far as the Serviceman and analogous cases—
What is "analogous"?
The hon. Member must give me credit for trying to be perfectly candid with the Committee. I did explain perfectly clearly that the Government had put their proposals into Clauses 13 and 14 because they recognised that there was a difference between the case of the allowances to the Serviceman and social insurance allowances such as those specified in Clause 14. The Government, I say again—this is the third time—will endeavour so to draft the new Clause as to remove any ground for apprehension that has been expressed in regard to the application of the Bill to the allowances of the Serviceman and analogous cases; but I am bound to make it absolutely clear that the principle of no duplication in regard to social service allowances, payable under different parts of what is, in fact, one great scheme of social insurance, must be maintained. In other words, the final result of proceeding piecemeal with this scheme, taking first family allowances and then industrial compensation, and so on, shall not be different from the result that would have been attained had it been possible to proceed at one and the same time with all parts of the scheme and produce a consistent whole which would secure the necessary equality of treatment in the different circumstances of the beneficiaries under the Bill.
rose —
At the last sitting of the Committee I agreed to a discussion of the Amendment, on the understanding that it should not be repeated on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." I agree that circumstances have changed, and I allowed a very wide discussion indeed, including references to Clause 14, on the Question now before the Committee. I hope, in those circumstances, that the Committee are now prepared to come to a decision, particularly as I understand that the Committee are substantially agreed upon the proposed withdrawal of the two Clauses.
Give me a chance, Major Milner. I have been here the whole day. Other Members have spoken several times. I particularly want to speak, in view of the statement that was made by the Minister of National Insurance. He says that it is not niggardliness, and he takes the analogy of an unemployed man getting 5s. and now to get another 5s., making 10s., and compares the case of a man who is off sick and whose child gets no allowance, which means that he only gets 5s. It never enters the Minister's mind to bring the balance up by making another allowance and putting them both on the same level in that way. In order to produce a balance the Government always want to cut down to the very minimum. That was one of the worst possible arguments that could have been presented by a representative of the Labour Movement.
In regard to no duplication, I would point out that many hon. Members on this side of the Committee have for a number of years conducted a fight against the policy of the Government, of no duplication. The fight against the means test was a fight against this principle. When I listened to much of the Debate and to speeches from the other side, it was obvious to me that a General Election was imminent. Hon. Members on the other side have been using arguments the very opposite of what they have been accustomed to put up in this House. That applies also to the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot). Hon. Members on the other side fought like tigers to prevent the men who have now saved this country from getting an extra 1s. allowance when they were children 20 years ago. I say to the Chancellor and to the Minister of National Insurance that nobody wants the redrafting of Clause 13 and that they should leave out the Clause altogether. They cannot introduce a redrafting that will satisfy anybody who is opposed to the present drafting, because that opposition is to the principle in the present drafting. Those remarks apply generally in the Committee to Clause 13 and apply, on this side at any rate, to Clause 14.
If the Government want to get the Bill—and the people of the country want to get it—let them leave out those Clauses. If they feel that something requires to be done it can be done later on in connection with general insurance. They can then bring in proposals on the whole question of unemployment allowances, old age pensions, widows' pensions and compensation. Why do they have to introduce it here and to say it is necessary to knock 5s. off some of these families so as to prevent them from getting an extra 5s. before the Government bring in their general scheme? A mother with two children might get two 5s. allowances instead of one, and the Government are anxious to give her only one. There is no need whatever for Clauses 12, 13 and 14. Let the Government agree not to do any redrafting, and ask permission of the House to rediscuss Clause 12 in Committee so as to remove it from the Bill. Then they will get the Bill without any trouble, and people will get family allowances. If any adjustments need to be made let them be done on the general scheme. It is an indication of the grossest meanness to use an analogy such as that made by the Minister and to say that in order to bring things level we must take something off people who are in dire need rather than raise them up.
I am afraid I cannot respond to the appeal from the Chair that we should come to a decision immediately. On the day on which the Bill was published we put down Amendments asking that Clauses 13 and 14 should be deleted. I wish to congratulate the Government on proposing to follow our advice in the matter. We put down the Amendments because we objected in principle to the theory of no duplication. Our objection is based on the fact that there is duplication of contributions. The people who are to be denied benefit under the Clause, by the operation of the theory of no duplication, are those who contribute to the national revenue by the payment of either direct or indirect taxation. Everybody is paying his share towards these benefits. Therefore, as the payments are duplicated there is not the slightest reason why the benefits should not be duplicated. Nothing will satisfy the Committee, so far as I can see, other than the complete dropping of this policy of non-duplication, and I hope the Committee will fight that policy to the end.
8 p.m.
I feel there is a really grave danger that the Government will find themselves in approximately the same conflict with the House of Commons when this matter is returned to the Committee after reconsideration. I wish to make one or two practical suggestions to the Government. The basic problem seems to me to be that here we are endeavouring to introduce a common and uniform system of payment for children on a wages structure appropriate to millions of men, paid in a thousand and one different ways. There is the basic salary or the basic wage, there is wife's allowance, there is child's allowance, there is cost of living bonus, there is "danger money," there is war bonus, and many other varieties of payment, into which the national wages structure now falls. My hon. Friends on the other side in industry will readily agree with me when I say that although many of these payments are known by a certain name, it is very often quite untrue to say that they are closely tied to the functional purpose to which the name would seem to entitle them to be attached.
Therefore, when the Chancellor and my right hon. and learned Friend speak about no duplication, I would ask them to differentiate very clearly between nominal duplication and effective duplication. If I see it aright, that is the basis of our problem. If I may analyse for one moment the question of the nominal parts of the wage structure of the serving soldier, one is bound to come to the conclusion that within it there is a payment of a children's allowance. But if one analyses it from an effective and practical point of view, I think one will come to the converse conclusion. To take the case of a serving man, a married man, say, with a couple of children, every Member will agree that if we exclude for a moment the dangers, the hardships and the separation which the serving soldier suffers, compared with a man in industry, yet he is receiving less than a man in industry, in whatever category of Army service he may be. We must admit that including this so-called children's allowance the man in the Services is not being paid adequately, compared with the man in industry. How then can the Government possibly ask the House of Commons to accept the proposition that if the serving man is now underpaid, comparatively, the serving man shall not get this extra 5s. and the man in industry shall?
That is the fundamental point which the Government have to examine. It brings us finally to this point, and this is why I was so surprised to hear my right hon. and learned Friend say that he must clear the ground: It seems to me that if he had cleared the ground we should not have this problem. What he has, in fact, done is that he has looked across the ground, and where there was something that looked like a child's allowance he has said, "I will not sow any more there," and where there was a barren plot he planted this 5s. Ultimately he must clear the ground, but he and his colleagues have to understand in the meantime that the nation, and particularly the Armed Forces of the Crown, regard this child's allowance as something, of a pledge, which is to be spread uniformly over the whole community, and other wage structures will need to be reviewed in the light of that decision. It is imperative that the Government should face this matter, in the way my right hon. Friend said he had done, but which in fact he has not done, that is, to clear the ground, to apply this uniformly throughout the community, and then adjust the wage scales and the allocation of parts of wages appropriate to this particular Measure.
I, like everybody in the Committee, want this. Bill to continue, and to see it accepted without delay, but I believe that we can say to our right hon. Friends on the Front Bench, that further delay will ensue, if the principles embodied in the statements, of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of National Insurance are carried into effect. Let me deal with one particular section. We had it crystal clear that non-duplication is quite likely to apply to people who receive workmen's compensation, and I want to deal with that aspect. In the mining industry the men largely pay for their own workmen's compensation themselves. Before wages are paid there is withdrawn from the proceeds of the industry, 85 per cent. in the case of the men, and 15 per cent. in the case of the owners, of all costs to the industry. Therefore, assuming a figure of say £50,000 contributed by the industry for workmen's compensation, 85 per cent. would be borne by the miners.
Surely if that argument is proved, that the men are paying for their own workmen's compensation, they are not to be disadvantaged by any legislation which applies to people who, when earning wages or receiving incomes, are better off than they are. Picture the situation. A man goes to the mine or to industry, and is earning, say, £6 a week, and is receiving 5s. allowance for each child after the first. He is injured, and the rate of injury in the mining industry is such that a man is injured once every four years on the average, or someone gets a double dose. If he is injured and receives workmen's compensation, a large portion of the cost of which he has paid, his compensation is governed by his wage standards. Yet he is to be precluded, after his injury, when his income standard is less, from receiving the family allowance. That position does not bear looking at.
If we pass this legislation as it stands, there will be a raging, tearing campaign in industry, and particularly in an industry where the accident rate is high, for the changing of these conditions without delay. Surely it is much better to face the situation now. Some of my hon. Friends on the other side of the Committee are somewhat appeased about the principle of Clause 14 being continued, because an understanding or likelihood is held out that the Serviceman is to be considered, and that his pension payments will not preclude him from receiving the 5s. allowance. With that I agree 100 per cent., but we must remember that many ex-Servicemen will not be pensionable, but will enter industry. Axe those ex-Servicemen, who have fought for this country, going to be precluded, on coming into industry, from receiving these benefits if they are injured? There will be more ex-Servicemen without pensions than the number who will get pensions. I beg my hon. Friends who have got some satisfaction on this matter to consider those millions of other ex-Servicemen who ought to share these benefits, and I ask the Government to consider that phase of the matter when they bring forward their Clause.
The only point in continuing this Debate for even a few minutes longer is to re-emphasise that the Government should take these Clauses out altogether, and not merely redraft them and bring them forward again with the same principle still in them. It is the principle of non-duplication which the Committee has objected to, and not merely some point of drafting. I think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister both used an argument which they cannot really use. They cannot expect the Committee to accept an argument which is based on a hypothetical general scheme which is not now before the Committee. The Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke of this great, comprehensive, general scheme in the present tense. He said that it "is" a scheme. It is nothing of the kind; it does not exist except as a hypothetical, tidy, ideal, Platonic pattern, stored up in the recesses of the great brain of my right hon. and learned Friend.
And in the White Paper, which my hon. Friend may not have had time to read.
I wonder whether there is any limit to this Debate at all. We have discussed two Clauses and the Bill. I do not think we should drag in the White Paper, even if it has been referred to.
I was not dragging it in. It was not I who referred to it.
The hon. Member was trying to enlarge on it. He was obviously trying to widen the issue.
With great respect, Mr. Williams, even you are not a prophet. You do not know whether I was going to deal with the White Paper.
I said that the hon. Gentleman was widening the point by dealing with the White Paper, as an enlargement of the matter. He had already begun to do so.
Surely, at the exact moment when you intervened, Mr. Williams, the hon. Gentleman was speaking of the scheme as a platonic ideal. He said that the pattern was laid out in the brain of the Prime Minister. It is laid out in Heaven, which is quite different.
Very well, in the heavenly recesses of my right hon. and learned Friend's brain—I did not say "the brain of the Prime Minister." As you have ruled, Mr. Williams, I shall not—and I did not intend to, anyway—deal with the White Paper, except to say that, as the Minister knows perfectly well, a White Paper is not legislation. The scheme as a whole cannot come before this present Parliament; therefore, I suggest that the argument that these two Clauses can be considered only in relation to a grand comprehensive scheme really falls to the ground.
The whole of the Committee want the Bill; the whole of the Committee, with the exception of perhaps one right hon. Member, the Noble Lord, and, of course, the Government Front Bench, are opposed to these two Clauses. My hon. Friend was very melancholy about his Bill. He said he wanted his Bill. We are all trying to help him to get it. The only obstacle is the obstruction which the Government are offering to the unanimous opinion of the Committee on the principle contained in these two Clauses. Therefore, I would beg the Chancellor and my right hon. and learned Friend not to try to redraft them, embodying the same principle, and not to use the argument that they can only be considered in relation to some vast scheme of the hypothetical future, which we cannot really believe in because we cannot see it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he hoped he would not be accused of any lack of candour towards the Committee. I would not wish to accuse him of any wilful lack of candour, especially in his absence, but I thought he was guilty of a most preposterous statement, an appalling sophistry, when he said that there was no intention in the mind of the Government to do anything "detrimental" to the interests of Servicemen. The Clause provides for the possibility of taking away 5s. a week from the dependants of Servicemen. If that is not detrimental, what, is?
8.15 p.m.
I wish to reply to my hon. Friend who said that if this 5s. were conceded to every child who came within the age group, the general set-up of our wages system would be altered. That statement ought to be challenged from this side of the Committee. I have always thought that the family allowance was something to supplement the family income, and I do not think it has any relation to the wages now received by the workers of this country. May I put a point of view on behalf of those men in the industry in which I have been interested? My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Mr. Collindridge) said that in his county they paid indirectly 85 per cent. towards the compensation which they now receive. In the county that I come from they pay 87 per cent. It would be manifestly unfair if the Bill made any differentiation against the children of the injured miners. I think it is within the realm of possibility for the Government to accept the deletion of these two Clauses, in order that we may proceed with this Bill, and get it on the Statute Book as soon as ever we can.
I echo the wish of the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown) that the Chancellor, with the Cabinet behind him, may find it convenient to withdraw both these Clauses. I listened carefully to the Chancellor's opening statement, and could discover no proposals which indicated any change of principle. The Government were not prepared to duplicate benefits. I acknowledge the compliment paid me by the Chancellor. I see he is coming back, for which, of course, I am extremely grateful. There is one point which has not so far been mentioned this evening, in connection with the application of the so-called duplicate benefit to the men who are subscribing to the Unemployment Insurance Fund. I gather that the intention of the Government is, if possible, to save money, even at the expense of the families of the working class. Indeed, when I heard the Chancellor repeating several times the word "principle," I felt very much like asking him how he spelt that word, whether he finished it with "le" or "al." It is obvious that the Chancellor of the Exchequer must look after the national finances, but not at the expense of social justice.
Now, in regard to unemployment benefit, and the fund which has accumulated such an enormous balance, if the members contributing to it are to be told that they will receive the family allowance, as laid down in the Bill, but will not receive any allowance that might derive out of other forms of insurance, it is quite obvious that the Government will be asking these men to pay for a form of insurance out of which they derive no benefit. Unless it is the intention of the Government at a later stage, in connection with a larger Measure of social security, to put all these matters right, it does seem to me that they are asking for trouble—trouble that is bound to come when Clauses 13 and 14 are again before the Committee. I think it would be a great misfortune, not only for the country, but to the Conservative Party as well, if, on the introduction of the amended Clauses, the Government were defeated, mainly for the reason, possibly, that the Government would still be refusing to accept the obvious reply of the Committee on the question of duplication of benefits. As the hon. Member opposite rightly said, in connection with its effect upon the ex-Service families, you can regard the benefit in the one case as being nominal, and in the other case as being real, and, if the benefit is conceded in the first instance for a certain reason, there is no justice in withholding benefit in a second case where there is another and equally good reason.
After all, there are causes and circumstances that have to be recognised in questions of this kind, and it does seem to me that the Chancellor, and the Govern- ment who are instructing him, are obsessed with the idea that you cannot, with justice to the ratepayers, should I say, pay two benefits for children in the same Bill. As has been said already, the disabled soldier has his allowance for a definite reason, and you have no right to say that, when the time comes for a general increase in benefits to be made to working class families, he shall not receive the advantage of that additional benefit. Working-class families, in these circumstances, are all in the same position of asking to have this financial support, in order that their families may be in the best physical condition. Unless the Chancellor and the Government are playing a political game, and I do not accuse them of that, they are taking a mistaken course, and I appeal to them to facilitate the passage of this Bill by withdrawing these two Clauses.
The Minister in charge of the Bill has already told us of plans that he has for the future. What better way out of this disagreeable position—a position to which we object as well as the Government itself—than to say: "Let us sweep away these two Clauses that have been the cause of so much difference of opinion in the Committee, and let us start with a clean slate, so that whatever has to be adjusted can be adjusted in the grand new plans which we are promised by the Minister in charge of the Bill"?
I hope the Government and the Committee will not be persuaded by opinion outside. I think the Government had arrived at a conclusion before they brought the Clause before the Committee. We are all backing the ex-Serviceman, but I want to take the case of the miners. Hon. Members can imagine what the feeling will be in the mining industry if the injured workman, now getting a supplementary allowance, is to be told that family allowances are not to be added on, because he is already getting something and is not, to have any more. Men in the mining industry have believed all along that family allowances meant something in addition to what they are getting now, and it is only the recent controversy over Clauses 13 and 14 that has brought to light, in full and beyond any doubt, what is actually intended. There will be no satisfaction in the industry when the men know that. The Minister in charge of the Bill is taking a long view, and he says we cannot have what is called duplication or overlapping, because it is all State money and we should get further complicated as we go along, but, in matters like this, when things are brought before the Committee by all parties anxious to get the family allowances working, the Government ought to take note of what these considerations are. The Minister has said that it was not a question of £5,000,000, but it does appear that there is something in that behind it all.
Why cannot the Government accede to the request of the Committee? I can foresee that, if Clauses 13 and 14 are withdrawn and the question is examined again, though without sweeping away all the anomalies mentioned now, the same trouble will arise again, and the Committee will not agree to it, because, even if you appease one section, the whole will not be satisfied, unless the allowance is given to every family. Like the hon. Lady the Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone), I have attempted to do what I could to bring about family allowances, because I realise what they would mean to the working-class families, but, if I accept Clauses 13 and 14 as they stand now, I am, in effect, saying that, though we have got family allowances, they will not make any difference to the families who are most subject to accidents and that kind of thing. Would it not be wise for the Government at this stage to say that, though they do no altogether agree with what has been said, they are bound to take into account the opinions which the Committee have put forward? It is on that plea that I ask the Government to review the position and give way to the overwhelming opinion of the country.
Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 14.—(Adjustments in case of children for whom supplementary allowances, etc., are paid under certain provisions.)
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 15.—(Adjustments in respect of outdoor relief, etc.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I would make a very brief protest against this Clause, which, again, contains this proposition that there should be no duplication of benefits. This Clause gives the Minister power to exclude people who are receiving outdoor relief under the Unemployment Assistance Act, and that means some of the most hard-hit and poverty-stricken sections of the population. In a Bill which, after all, is not introducing a means test of any sort, it seems to me to be wholly wrong that the worst-hit sections of the population should be singled out not to have this benefit, when all sorts of other people, some very wealthy, are getting it. I am not going at this stage of the Bill to hold up the Committee any more, but I want to enter a protest against the principle of non-duplication which the Government have accepted as being a bad principle, and here is an example of how it is working out. It is of no benefit to the worst-off sections of the population.
8.30 p.m.
I support what the hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. H. Lawson) has said, and would like the Minister to tell us whether, when they are assessing the benefits, they will have to have in mind the amount which is given when people are on Poor Law assistance or receiving supplementary benefit. Will they say that now the family allowance unit must be 25s.? If the unit remains at £1 and family allowances come in, these families will suffer accordingly. They will not get the increased benefit of family allowances which everybody would hope to receive. If the present basis is to remain, then these poor families will not get the benefit which such families might reasonably expect.
The hon. Member is misinformed in thinking that this is likely to make any difference at all, as these categories are already subject to a means test. Already the amounts payable are based on the total income coming into the home. It would be impossible for these people to improve their position unless there was control over the agencies which already determine the amount to be paid for public relief. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has not that power. The Minister of Health is the one who determines whether or not there can be allowances. Public assistance up and down the country varies. I know of a road in which there are two rates of assistance being paid because the road happens to be in two different counties, and therefore is administered by different public assistance committees, which are paying different scales. The way to work this is not to do it in the way it is done in this Bill. If you are to abolish the Poor Law, then you should abolish it. If you are to have a scheme of national assistance, then there should be a national scale, but that would be an entirely different thing from incorporating into the Bill something which is not relevant. We ought not to be misled.
I hope that the Clause will be allowed to stand part of the Bill, because it performs a useful but a very simple function. Where moneys have been paid either to a recipient of relief or of unemployment assistance which he should not have got, or where the public authority has been prejudiced because it anticipated that the recipient of relief had not the family allowance, this Clause makes provision for the money to be repaid in one way or another, and I hope it will be agreed to.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 16.—(Obtaining of information as to births, marriages and deaths.)
I beg to move, in page 12, line 43, leave out "one shilling," and insert: allowances and are called upon to produce birth certificates of children for whom they are claiming they will reluctantly be compelled to go to the registrar of births and deaths to secure them. The Minister has gone one-third of the way with us, and I move the present Amendment hoping that he will go still further.
I am very pleased to be able to accept this Amendment. It is the fact that under all the Acts—the Savings Bank Act, the National Health Insurance Act, the Unemployment Insurance Act and the Contributory Pensions Act—the marriage certificate is always subject to the charge of one shilling. There is no instance of any marriage certificate or death certificate being charged at a less figure than that, but there are precedents for the birth certificate being charged at a rate of sixpence, though in some cases it is charged at the rate of one shilling. In the circumstances I gladly follow the rule and accept the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 17 to 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 21.—(Provisions as to certain special circumstances affecting the operation of Section 3.)
I beg to move, in page 15, line 14, leave out from "a," to "shall," in line 16, and insert:
"child being legitimate issue of a deceased spouse of any person by an earlier marriage of the deceased spouse to another."
I have moved this Amendment for this very basic reason. Supposing Mr. and Mrs. A are married and have children and the mother dies, then, according to the definition, those children would be the step-children of their father, because they are the legitimate children of the deceased spouse, and that, obviously, is an error. We never meant to say that they should be step-children and the words proposed to be put in sets that right. The point of the Clause is simply that under those circumstances the child can count as being issue instead of merely coming in as being maintained.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 22 and 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 24.—(Limitation to Great Britain of extent of application of Act.)
I beg to move, in page 16, line 40, leave out "either."
On the Second Reading Debate the Minister said that he would like it left to him—I am quoting his words from memory—to decide what particular nationalities of children should be admitted for the purpose of receiving these family allowances. The object of this and the following Amendment in my name which seeks, in line 41, to leave out from "subject," to end of line 2 on page 17, is to deprive the Minister of that power of extension of the family allowances in that way. In my view this Bill makes a great step forward in our social system, and I think that we should at least start by confining the payment of the family allowances to children of British subjects and to children who are resident in this country. It seems a little hard to me to justify the use of the taxpayers' money for making free gifts to people who are not British. We have in this country at the present moment a vast number of alien refugees. The question may arise whether they remain here or not but, while they are temporary visitors on these shores, is the British taxpayer to have to furnish money by way of family allowances? That really is the question raised by this and the following Amendment. It seems to me that we ought to lay down the rule quite clearly that the allowance in Britain is paid to children of British subjects, either by birth or by reason of naturalisation. An alien can become a British subject by naturalisation if he has the suitable qualifications, and if he does so then I see no reason why the payment of family allowances should not be permissible. I think the onus here is really on the Minister to justify the expenditure of the taxpayers' money on people who are not British by birth or British by naturalisation.
I think probably hon. Members will agree that it would be in the interests of the Committee if we took this Amendment and the next together.
I am sorry, Mr. Williams, I meant to ask your permission.
Then the hon. Members agrees that he has put the case for the two Amendments.
8.45 p.m.
I would like to support this Amendment. The hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) has said pretty nearly all that has to be said, but he has put it in a very delicate manner having regard to the feelings that already exist in regard to many of the aliens already in our midst. In certain parts of the country, not least in industrial Lancashire, there is growing up a very dangerous feeling indeed that aliens, some of enemy origin, are having a very much better time during the war than the native-born working population, and have taken privileges to themselves to which they are not entitled. At such a period, suddenly to propose that any sort of persons from Central or Eastern Europe who happen to have fled to this country and have been taken in out of sheer pity because his or her life was in danger—or they said it was—are to be subsidised at the expense of our own people and encouraged to breed is utterly wrong in my view. Feeling is growing in the country, and the one thing we have to try to prevent here is those scenes of persecution which have disgraced other countries. The trouble is blowing up the whole time and, unless this Amendment is accepted, that feeling will extend considerably and danger will arise. I do ask the Committee to consider what this really means—that everybody in this country is to be taxed to encourage a lot of foreigners to come and breed here.
The people the hon. Gentleman is criticising have to pay taxes just as the others have to do, and therefore should have the allowance.
Unless they evade taxation, as a number of them probably do.
May I rise to a point of Order, Mr. Williams? The hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) is making a charge against the integrity and the honesty of people who are resident in this country; is that in Order on this Amendment?
I repeat the charge.
Prove the charge.
The hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) is putting his point of view. I did not hear a definite charge against an individual.
I repeat the charge in bulk against a very large number of the aliens who come to this country under the plea of persecution and are now a constant source of trouble to the authorities.
Nonsense.
Typically reptilian.
The records of Scotland Yard will show that every word I have said is perfectly true—
Nonsense.
and that the meanest types of offences against the food regulations are common amongst foreigners.
I think that now, when we are going into alien records, or something of that sort, that is wide of the Amendment, which deals with whether the children of aliens should be entitled to receive this particular amount of money.
I am sorry, Mr. Williams, that I should have been led astray by what seemed to me to be the rather foolish remarks from the Opposition Front Bench. If the Committee think it is desirable to encourage aliens to breed in this country then by all means let them reject this Amendment. I think they will find that the views I have expressed will be regarded with much more favour in the country than the view expressed by the hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths).
It is always easy to whip up general accusations.
May I begin by expressing the hope that the Minister will reject this Amendment? About a week ago we celebrated our victory over the Nazis and it is thoroughly regrettable that after that victory on the Continent of Europe we should have the tenets of Nazism expounded in this Committee. Millions of precious lives have been lost, and if this foul creed persists in any way those lives will have been lost in vain. Not only do I hope that the Minister will reject the Amendment, but I also hope that he will reject the idea behind it. I do not know whether I am an alien myself. I am a Welshman and Welsh people were the first to come to this country, not like people like the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), who came from other places and are the real aliens. We belong to the oldest race in this country. All this talk about stopping aliens coming here and settling is all wrong. If they settle here they become citizens of this country, share its life, pay its taxes, and have to work. Let me say to the hon. Member for Mossley, who is an industrialist, that when South Wales was going through its worst period alien industrialists showed a sympathy with us which was an example to British industrialists. We were very glad to welcome them, and we hope they will stay with us, for I believe that they have an important contribution to make to this country. I hope we shall say definitely that the views expressed by the hon. Member are not the views of the majority of our people.
I also trust that the Government will stand by this Clause as it is drafted, because it provides ample protection. I cannot understand the attitude of the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller), because as a rule he is far-seeing and puts over a good case. I think, however, that on this occasion he brought too much prejudice into this question, and has taken the narrow view. If we adopt that view one set of people will get State benefit and another set, living in the same street, will not benefit because they have been driven out of their own country. That will lead to enmity and bitterness. I thought we fought this war to broaden our views, and to bring liberty and freedom of thought and life to everybody. I, too, am an alien because I come from Eire. Whatever is paid out, workers in the country will have to pay in taxation to meet the cost. When the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) said that aliens were dodging payment of taxes, that can apply to many people, and not only one section. We should try to give family allowances to all those in Britain who qualify for them, and not discriminate by this means.
I regret the speech made by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkin- son). I am not afraid of taking the Christian point of view on the matter, because if there is a family in need it would be a dreadful thing if we were to say that we were distinguishing because a person was born in a certain part of the world. I think our greatness has been founded on the fact that we have treated men and women as men and women, irrespective of whatever their nationality might be. I think the mind of the hon. Member for Mossley is getting rather warped on this question, because yesterday he raised the same point with regard to another matter. I think we should be doing honour to ourselves and expressing the best Christian charity if we gave an allowance to every child in need, wherever it might have been born.
I cannot help feeling that the speech of the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) has rather upset the Committee, and that the speeches which have followed have not really dealt with the Amendment and have been rather a reflection upon my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller). The Amendment seeks to provide that the allowance shall be paid to a person who is a British subject. That makes full allowance for those who come here to live, and is cutting out only those who form a floating population and who come here for a short time, purely for their own benefit. I think this particular allowance should be payable to a British subject. There is some substance in that, I suggest, and I hope that the matter will be looked at solely from that point of view. After all, aliens have come here and have done a lot of good. Let them become British subjects, and then they will be entitled to the allowance.
What nationality is the child born in this country of alien parents? Is it British, or can it become a British subject?
I am not sufficiently well up in the law to know whether the child of French parents born here is a British subject.
It is.
I would like to point out that alleged undesirables have always been dealt with by the Aliens Act which was passed, I think, in 1906. Consequently, the immigration into this country of people from other countries was strictly regulated by Act of Parliament. It has been said that if a person becomes a British citizen his children can qualify for the allowance, but it is not so easy as one might think to become a British citizen. The Aliens Act makes it a very difficult thing for very poor people. If I had my way I would make the test not one of a monetary payment but one of citizenship. Many of the poorer aliens in my part of the country cannot afford to become British citizens.
9.0 p.m.
There is another aspect of the case. During the time of the depression men, for good or ill, left the Clyde to go to the United States, and when they were in the United States they were to some extent compelled to become American citizens in order to hold their jobs, owing to discrimination against aliens. If any of these men return, technically they will not be British, and under the Amendment their children would be disqualified. The Minister has taken an adequate power to deal with this matter. What is that power? He does not propose that the allowances should be granted to everybody who comes here for a few months and then goes to another country. The Minister takes power to grant the allowance or to refuse it if its granting would in any way cause the scheme to be abused. I think that power will work fairly well. I ask the Minister to bear in mind that we are living in a world in which the legislation of the House of Commons is not an insular thing but a worldwide thing. Consider what would be the effect on world opinion if the Committee were to pass this small Amendment. It would not be the thing that we passed that would go out as news to America. It would be told to the world that in some way we were discriminating against foreigners after many of those same foreigners had helped us to win the war. For instance, many Poles joined the Polish Army and fought alongside our men. Would it not be criminal if, on some technical ground, we were to refuse the allowance to the child of a Polish soldier who had fought alongside our men? I hope that, for the sake of the traditions of this country and the thoughts of people abroad about the House of Commons, the Minister will stick to the provision in the Bill. He has sufficient power to deal with the matter if the scheme should be abused. I am quite certain the scheme will not be endangered if he adheres to his point of view.
I do not think my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) need make any apologies for this Amendment: The short debate which has taken place on it has been of considerable value, if only from the point of view that it has enabled the Minister to find out what is the opinion of the Committee on this matter. I am in no way concerned with the heat that has been engendered on the question of aliens. It is a little unfortunate that the Debate should have taken that course and have initiated research into history by the hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths), who was anxious to prove that nearly everybody except the Welsh are aliens in this country. For many centuries now this island has consisted of a united people all of whom have played their part in this great war, and are marching forward together to better times. We were carried through the last war by the father of the Noble Lady the Member for Anglesey (Lady Megan Lloyd-George) and through this war by a distinguished Englishman.
The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) was anxious for the reputation of the House in this matter. So am I. It is a little curious and unfortunate that the Committee has devoted itself for something like three hours to wrestling with the Government for fair play for our own fighting men and a little later on the same day should be told that it is improper to suggest that there should be priority in this matter—[ Interruption. ] My hon. Friend has made a perfectly reasonable suggestion. There is no antagonism to aliens. All that they have to do is to take out naturalisation papers.
Why penalise their children while they are waiting to be naturalised?
An hon. Member opposite says, "What about the children in the meantime?" The Minister will have discretion in the matter. I do not intend to support the Amendment to a Division but the Debate has been useful in that the right hon. Gentleman is now fortified with the opinion of a considerable section of the House of Commons that that discretion should be wisely used. While we are not anxious to penalise aliens—I should wish to be the last to exclude them—if this is to be limited to those who are going to reside here, not for opportunist purposes, the right hon. Gentleman will have met to a large extent the spirit of the Amendment.
If I were the father of a number of small children who had to go to an elementary school I should be really frightened of denying proper nourishment to other children in the school. There would be some sense in the hon. Member's argument if all these children were put into quarantine or were refused permission to attend elementary schools or cinemas. If you segregated the children it would be stupid and barbarous but it would be logical, but I should be exceedingly frightened if, by some such method as is suggested now, proper nourishment was denied to children so that I should expose my children to the contagion of disease which that malnutrition had given rise to. Altruism is the highest kind of selfishness, and we dare not deny these people the opportunity of nourishing themselves properly. I hope we shall hear no more of such rubbish. I am deeply ashamed that we have had to listen to the barbarous indecencies of the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson).
I should explain that all the instances I had in mind were those of Germans.
Supposing they were, I have never heard such absurdities as have come from the hon. Gentleman when we know very well that in almost every branch of medicine and every walk of life we are the beneficiaries of distinguished Germans. Fancy having this kind of nonsense now! I wish that hon. Members would grow up so that they can take a proper part in adult discourse. It is not necessary to make these arguments or observations in order to convince the Committee that we ought not to accept the Amendment, but they are necessary so that the world may learn that most of us do not share these ebullitions from a barbarous past.
We have had an interesting Debate, and I think that it should have one definite conclusion, that is, that I should ask the Committee to reject the Amendment. I believe that my hon. Friends, in seeking to put this matter on nationality are putting it on a completely wrong test. It is a fact that if two French people came over here and, in the course of their visit, a child was born, that child would be a British subject. A child born anywhere in His Majesty's Dominions is a British subject. A child born is Eire is a British subject. There is no doubt about that. The test of nationality is the wrong test. I will give an illustration on both sides. Take, for instance, a man born in Eire and living in Eire, paying his contributions to the taxes of Eire, and in no sense of the word resident in this country. He comes over here for a fortnight's holiday, bringing with him his 10 children. Is he really to have family allowances for those children? It would be some holiday if he did. Why should he, because he happens to be a British subject, have his holiday at the expense of our taxpayers?
Take another case on the other hand. You may have people who have lived in this country for years, and in every way have entered into and become part of the life of this country and have become established members of the community in everything, except that they have not become naturalised. For instance, a mother is over here with the children and the father stays abroad; she has lived here for years, perhaps unable to get a divorce from him, or for other reasons. That is a case where, although the person is not a British subject, it seems to me quite plain, that she, who has become an established member of the community, should be entitled to family allowances, all the more because the children are British subjects. If you get a British subject born in Great Britain it is reasonable to assume that he is an established member of the community. I have an Amendment later dealing with the words "born in Great Britain." You may get a British subject who is not born in Great Britain. Let me mention distinguished Dominions people like General Freyberg, who was born in New Zealand; Don Bradman, who was born in Australia; and Lord Bennett, who was born in Canada. They are all British subjects, but they are British subjects who were not born in Great Britain. There is, again, the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge), who was born in India. They would have to come in some kind of classification, and it would be an easy one in those cases. I should be able to make stiffer rules in regard to other people.
I am in a difficult position, because the right hon. and learned Gentleman has referred to another Amendment, and is proceeding to discuss it now. If we do that, we cannot discuss it later.
9.15 p.m.
If that is in accordance with your Ruling, Mr. Williams, I gladly fall in with it. I thought it would save save time to take the two Amendments together.
I have no objection. We did have an arrangement earlier whereby the first two Amendments should be taken together, but I think it will be more convenient if we do not discuss the other Amendment until we reach it.
On a point of Order. I hope, Mr. Williams, you are not excluding the Amendment which follows in the names of the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. Graham White) and a number of my hon. Friends, because that concerns a different matter—In page 16, line 41, leave out "born in Great Britain," and insert "of the Crown-in-the-United Kingdom."
As a matter of fact, I did not think of selecting it.
I will finish what I was going to say. I am sorry I strayed from the straight and narrow path. I would merely ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.
Is it not a fact that in various connections concerning social services, as dealt with from time to time by the International Labour Office, the British Government have given undertakings that they will not discriminate against any other nation?
It does not apply to a case like this. It would apply if you discriminated against foreign workers with regard to workmen's compensation, but it would not apply to a case of this sort.
I do not regret having put down these Amendments and having initiated this discussion. I was hoping that some principle would emerge from them in the sense that the Minister might say what was the principle to be applied. Before asking leave to withdraw the Amendments, I would answer the observations made by the hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths). I do not in the least regard this as a Fascist attempt or anything of that sort. I think we ought to take some pride in being British subjects, either by naturalisation or by birth. British subjects include people all over the world, so I do not think it can be said that I was asking for any narrow interpretation by seeking to put in that definition. When it comes to naturalisation, it may be that different considerations apply, but I am sure it will be read with interest throughout all parts of this country that people have reason to regard the Germans as beneficiaries—I think those were the words which were used by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan)—although, as it is only a week after VE-Day some particular reservations may have to be made.
Einstein, for example.
It would be for the convenience of the Committee, Mr. Williams, if they knew your decision with regard to the next Amendment on the Order Paper.
I cannot accept the withdrawal now because the hon. Gentleman by his intervention has prevented it.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in page 16, line 41, leave out "born in Great Britain," and insert:
"whose place of birth is in the United Kingdom."
This Amendment is to deal with the case of Northern Ireland. We hope to have a reciprocal arrangement. It is obvious that if we did not have this provision in, we should need complicated residence tests, but by treating Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom we are able to have a reciprocal arrangement. Northern Ireland have wanted no distinction between persons born in Northern Ireland and persons born in Great Britain, and in view of the help they have given us in the war I hope that the Committee will agree to this proposal.
So far as I know, this is the first instance in any Bill, and particularly in a Bill on social services, of a distinction being made to omit the citizens of Northern Ireland. I hope that whoever is responsible for drafting Bills will never make the same mistake again. I most heartily welcome the Amendment which has been moved; in fact, it would be not only unjust but extremely unfortunate if the Amendment had not been moved. Apart altogether from the discrimination among people who are members of the United Kingdom, pay the same taxes and fight the same battles, there would be a great deal of complication.
If the Amendment is agreed to it will mean that citizens of Northern Ireland will be on the same basis as everybody born in the United Kingdom, if they happen to reside in Great Britain. It will then be possible to pass corresponding legislation in the Northern Ireland Parliament, when its turn comes to consider a Bill, giving the advantages of family allowances in Northern Ireland. A new Clause will have to be passed before that can be done by the Northern Ireland Parliament, but assuming that that new Clause is passed it will mean that citizens of Great Britain who are in Belfast, even citizens from Gorbals, will enjoy all the privileges of those who live permanently in Sandy Row.
It is becoming evident that the Title of the Bill is not altogether a simple matter, and that it is likely to be even more complicated and to bring fresh problems to those who will have to administer the Measure, as we gradually emerge from the world convulsion through which we have been passing. Obviously, there is a very large number of cases in this connection, and the restriction in Sub-section ( a, 1) of the Clause is obviously far too narrow. What is the position of members of the Indian Civil Service who have been educated in this country, all members of the Colonial Service and a whole category of cases of that kind? As has been stated, there are members of this Committee who will not qualify for benefits under this Bill as it stands, and there are other members whose children will not be qualified. The Committee is entitled to know where we are going in this matter. My right hon. and learned Friend proposes to deal with these matters by way of regulation. Probably he has something in mind, or in draft. Could he, on the precedent on a recent Bill we passed in this House, let us see these draft Regulations? Apart from that we know there are very large questions of nationality lying immediately in front of us. I do not need to recall to the Committee that the Prime Minister on a recent occasion promised British nationality, under certain conditions, to a very large number of those members of the Polish nation who have been fighting so gallantly with us.
These matters have to be dealt with by regulation when the time comes, but it seems to me there is a possibility of something we have never heard of before—two classes of British nationality, first-class and second-class British citizenship, or something of that kind. We want to be satisfied that these are not possible realities. The discussion on this subject has shown that this matter is really too complex. When the first proposal for family allowances was published as part of the wider scheme, there was nothing which brought greater prestige than the question of family allowances in the wider scheme. Other nations thought of us, "These people have faith in the future. In these dark days they are still thinking of the future, and of making things better for their children." It would be better if my right hon. and learned Friend made the qualification simply a residential one, so that all the children, in this country whose parents were resident here, fulfilling their duties and paying their taxes, and who had been resident for a sufficiently long time, would have been included. That would have been a great opportunity in the international field for making reciprocal arrangements with other countries, and would have done something, at a time when nationalism is becoming more inflammatory, in the way of being an influence and example to the rest of the world. The Amendment I had hoped to move has not been selected, but I hope my right hon. and learned Friend will take these points of view into consideration. We should like some indication of the nature of the Regulations which the Minister proposes to introduce at a future date. We should like to know that the cases I have mentioned will be covered, that there will be no discrimination, and no chance of there being two types of British citizenship.
I wish to support what the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) has said, especially in regard to the creation of two types of British subjects—a first-class type and a second-class type. The Amendment which my right hon. and learned Friend has proposed still leaves a wide gap. The full British-born subject, born in the United Kingdom, gets these things as a right. The other man has to petition for it as a privilege. I resent that very much. I was not born in the United Kingdom. I consider myself to be an extremely British subject. My children have passed the qualifying age. In fact they are rapidly qualifying for old age pensions. I resent very much that I should have to go to the Minister, and say, "Please, do I come under Regulation so-and-so?"
9.30 p.m.
I wish to speak with moderation, but, after what we have heard from the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), it is almost impossible to speak with moderation. He has interjected into this issue a degree of venom to which one can only reply in a somewhat acidulated form. If we are going to adopt racial theories, borrowed from the Nazis, to assume that there can be in this country citizens paying British taxes, assuming all the rights of duties of British subjects, and none of the rights of other British subjects; if, after all the reputation we have won in this war, we are going, only a few days after our victory, to descend to rhetoric such as the hon. Member for Mossley does in this House, it seems to me that that is something which none of us can let pass without the strongest protest. I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will assure us that by introducing the words "the United Kingdom" he is not in any way creating two classes of British subjects, and that his principle remains that the person who is born, or becomes, a British subject, and pays his taxes enjoys an absolute equality with other British subjects, not merely in respect of the duties but also in respect of the rights.
I, like the previous two speakers, think that this Amendment, although a small technical improvement, does not really meet the case. It starts off by laying down a very clear distinction between the British-born citizen and the British subject by naturalisation. I think that that is an extremely unfortunate thing to do. It is quite true that, as I anticipated when I read the text and thought of it in relation to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, the right hon. and learned Gentleman has indicated that he intends, by regulation, to correct this injustice and to remove this distinction. But, after all, the distinction between the British subject by birth and the British subject by naturalisation is important.
I do not think it is altogether desirable that that change should be made simply by the action of the Minister, whoever he may be, who makes these Regulations in due course. If we think of regulations being made, possibly by a different Minister, possibly working in the environment of a different Parliament, I think that such a future Minister would say that, even if he had power to include British subjects by naturalisation and put them on the same level and basis as British subjects by birth, the pointer in this Act was rather in the contrary direction. If I tried, as a future Minister, to indicate the intention from the Act of Parliament, I think I should say that provision had to be made for relatively small technical difficulties, such as the position of the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge) or of the hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. H. Nicolson), who are obviously British subjects but who happened to be born abroad. That, obviously, has to be corrected, but I should not have expected that it was the intention of Parliament to contemplate that the Minister, in making his Regulations, should make so bigoted a one as that of providing, in spite of the wording of paragraph ( a ), that a man is only called a British subject if born in Great Britain. I do not think that I need, in view of what has been said, argue the great importance of avoiding the creation of two completely different classes of British citizens, both British subjects, the one class which has both all the liabilities and all the privileges, and the other class which, equally, has all the liabilities, including both taxation and conscription, but only some of the privileges. That seems to me to be clearly wrong and it seems that that note was struck from the very beginning. I hope the Minister will either say that he will change the wording, or, if unable to make that change, will undertake to lay the Regulations so that we shall know what the Regulations are at the time when this Bill becomes an Act and so that they can accompany the will of the Parliament at the time.
May I ask the Minister, in support of what has been said, to look at these words again, because he has drawn a distinction between one type of British subject and another, and not merely between those born British and those who acquire British nationality through a legal formality? The Bill, as it stands, makes the distinction extremely narrow, and says that British subjects are only those born in Great Britain. We need to widen it to those whose place of birth is not the United Kingdom. I am not sure that this definition will include the well-known class of those who are born on British ships and who are British subjects. I am not at all sure whether a British ship is regarded within the law as being extra-territorial and is therefore regarded as being the United Kingdom, but I am quite sure that a child born in the Channel Islands is not born within the United Kingdom. I know many an instance of very brilliant Channel Islanders who have come to this country, and it would be rather sad, at this moment when we are all rejoicing at the fleeing of the Channel Islands, if some distinction could be drawn between those born there and those born on the mainland. I only want to ask the Minister to look at this again, because I am quite sure he wants to bring in all British subjects.
I have given these words a great deal of consideration, and I am perfectly satisfied with them as they stand and I do not propose to suggest any alteration. Having said that, let me try to remove some of the misapprehensions that have obviously been in the mind of the right hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter). I am not distinguishing in any way whatever between a person who acquires his British nationality by birth or a person who acquires it by naturalisation. They are both exactly on the same footing. The distinction is between the places of birth. I gave an illustration just now, when I was out of Order, of very distinguished British subjects who were not born in Great Britain. I gave the instances of General Freyberg, Don Bradman and Lord Bennett.
Each of these men, though not exactly the same as a naturalised British subject, would be, beyond all argument, a British subject, but he would be a British subject who was not born in the United Kingdom. Why have I adopted this test? We are not having two grades of the thing, but the House is entitled to pass an Act of Parliament which restricts certain benefits to certain people. Nationality is, to my mind, entirely the wrong test here. What you want to see is whether the particular person you are dealing with has or has not become an established member of the community, whether he is paying taxes and that sort of thing. Broadly speaking, it is a pity to make regulations to cover every conceivable case, but at a rough guess those British subjects who are born in Great Britain or born in the United Kingdom will almost certainly, in 999 cases out of every 1,000, satisfy the test of having become established members of the community. Of the others you may well have illustrations where, although beyond all argument they are British subjects, they are not really established members of the community at all. I gave an illustration, and I will repeat it, of an Irish labourer from Eire who comes over for the harvest or his holidays and brings 10 children. He is a British subject, but unless I have some qualification of where he was born he is not an established member of the community. I suggest that it is a matter where there would be an infinite variety of cases of people who have lived here and of children who were born here who are British in all but name but who have never taken out naturalisation papers. There will be people, distinguished sons of the Dominions who were born in the Dominions and are, therefore, just as British as any of us, men who have come over here in their later life and have become established members of the community over here, men we rejoice to honour and to whom we owe a great deal. In those circumstances I should make regulations.
I have not yet regulations in draft so I have not a very clear test in my mind as to the data but what I would propose in my regulation is a residence test. I would propose to formulate some residence test and I should make the residence test, as at present advised, on lines on which I would be entitled to say that they had become essential members of the community, and that would be more easily proved in the case of British subjects than in the case of aliens. I ask the right hon. Member for Oxford University, because his words carry great weight, to realise—and I emphasise this again—that I am not going to make any distinction between a British born subject and a naturalised British subject, who is on exactly the same footing as if he was born a British subject. But he could not alter the fact that he was born outside the United Kingdom, and he would have to come under the regulation. The regulation would be very easy to deal with. I have no sympathy whatever with the doctrine which the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson) indicated earlier. I am not going to try to formulate regulations which will make it difficult for people to come in but I want to see, before I let people in, if they become in the ordinary sense established members of the community so that they have a fair right to expect to be paid money out of the pockets of the British taxpayer.
9.45 p.m.
The speech that my right hon. Friend has just made must necessarily be extremely reassuring to everybody who has heard it, and to everybody who reads it. May I try to bring before my right hon. Friend, however, what is really worrying, us and making some of us feel that this Clause is one in which the reputation of our country for honour and humanity is more or less at stake? I agree with every word which has been said about the disadvantages of the Clause as it stands, by my right hon. Friend the Junior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) and my hon. Friend the Member for West Leicester (Mr. H. Nicolson) and other speakers. I think the Minister's reply would be very complete but for one thing. We are living in the shadow of an impending General Election, and what I have in mind is the effect that this Clause is likely to have, in its unamended form, upon the mass of those who may say "That is all very well for the present Minister of National Insurance, but during the Election policies may change, personalities may change." Suppose—I will not anticipate anything so dreadful—the next Government was composed of members of the calibre of the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson), who made a positively nauseating speech this evening. It may be said that is quite an unnecessary fear, but it is one which is felt by many people.
It is not so much the fears of the purely British-born parent who happens to have been abroad that are worrying us. He knows that he can resist injustice; it is the fears which are brought to me daily. If only hon. Members could read my post. I think I have had four or five letters on the subject this very week. It is the fears of the people who either have been naturalised, or who are longing to be naturalised, and who feel that this Clause is merely a sign that even if they succeed in being naturalised, they will be looked upon as a kind of second-class citizen. One hon. Member mentioned the case of the Poles. The Prime Minister has given us an assurance that Poles who may have good reasons for not wanting to return to Sovietised Poland shall receive very sympathetic consideration in their claim for naturalisation. Are these Poles to say, "That is all very well, we are likely to be naturalised but even if we are, we shall be subject to military service, we shall be subject to jury service, we shall have to pay Income Tax but it will be plainly intimated to us by this Clause in the new Bill that we are looked upon as second-rate citizens whose parenthood it is not wished to encourage"?
Perhaps another illustration will appeal more to some of my Friends on the Opposition side. Suppose there are Greeks resident in this country who do not particularly like the complexion of the present Government in Greece and who do not know what the results of the so-called free elections are likely to be so that they want to stay in this country. They are desirable people, but they will not feel that this Clause casts a very pleasant light upon the way in which they are regarded by the people of this country. It looks exactly like this, "While the war was on, we were glad that you should fight for us, that you should die for us, that you should work for us and give us the advantage of all your knowledge of export industries, but the sooner we see your back the better. Even if you do come over here after being naturalised, we shall not spend any of our money in providing allowances for your children." The Minister says explicitly that that is not his intention and we do not doubt it. But remembering all that a great many aliens have gone through, their hopes and how they have been disappointed, can we wonder that they feel rattier apprehensive about wording which suggests that the power that is given to the Minister is only to provide for a few exceptional cases, and that it is intended that the vast majority of those who have not been born in Great Britain, but are naturalised citizens, should be excluded? There are those who fear that if we give too much encouragement to aliens, we might eventually be flooded with aliens. That is a completely illusory fear. Anyone interested in this question has only to read the admirable pamphlet issued recently by P.E.P. entitled "Are Refugees An Asset" to—
We have wandered a long way from this comparatively narrow Amendment, and I must ask the hon. Lady not to go on to international affairs.
Of course, I must obey your Ruling, Mr. Williams, but as an Amendment on this point was not selected I thought we could talk about the substance of it on this Amendment.
That is all very well, but even that does not entitle the hon. Lady to discuss international affairs.
Does it not in this sense? I have said why the Clause is alarming to aliens, and I wanted to re-assure those who think that what we wanted to do was to encourage too many aliens to come to this country. If they read the pamphlet I referred to a moment ago, which is based chiefly on official figures, they will see that the number of refugees who want to settle here and become naturalised is estimated to be about 40,000, or fewer than one in 1,000 of our native population. Some of the refugees are too old to have dependent children and it would be an act of cruelty not to allow them to remain here. Some are children who know no other home than this country, no other language than ours; many have risked their lives during this war for this country and others have brought with them expert knowledge of their own industries which they have placed at our disposal. It would be madness, when this country has hanging over it the shadow of a declining population—
We have called at Greece and all sorts of other places right outside this Amendment and I really cannot allow the hon. Lady to go on like this.
Then I will only say, Mr. Williams, that here is a case, if ever there was one, where we have it in our power to reconcile the claims of magnanimity with those of self interest. This country has always been a shelter for the oppressed and I hope the Minister will put his regulations into effect as quickly as possible.
I agree with everything that was said by the Minister, but I want to ask him why he has drafted the provision of the Bill in this way, because it does not in any sense agree with what he said. He said there was absolutely no distinction between a British-born subject and a naturalised British subject, but in the Bill there is a distinction, because one is automatically included and the other has to rely on a regulation.
My hon. Friend is quite wrong. A British-born subject is not automatically included. He is included only if he is born in the United Kingdom. That is just the same as with a naturalised British subject. Do let us remember that anybody born in His Majesty's Dominions is a British subject. All I said was that the mere fact that a person is a British subject does not get that person in. He must be a British subject born in the United Kingdom
Then I must have misunderstood my right hon. Friend. I understood by the words "British-born subject" a British subject born in the United Kingdom. The other point to which I want to refer is this. My right hon. Friend said it is a question of residence, but nothing is said in the Bill about residence. Let us face practical cases. On the one hand, there is the case quoted by my hon. Friend the Member for West Leicester (Mr. Nicolson), who happened to be born outside the United Kingdom and who would have to rely on the regulation. On the other hand, if two French parents were living here for a year and had a child born, that child would be a British subject born in Great Britain. The point I want to make is that if it is residence we want to rely on as being the real justification for these benefits, then a naturalised British subject is much more likely to be resident in this country than the parents of a child which just happens to be born in this country. I submit to my right hon. Friend that the Bill does not really carry out the purpose that was indicated in his speech.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 16, line 41, after the words last inserted, to insert:
"or who is a naturalised British subject or has resided in Great Britain for a period of at least two years."
The Committee has already had a long argument on this problem, so I will explain the Amendment briefly. The Minister said that what he wanted was a practical test as to whether the people who are to be recipients are members of our community. I think this Amendment provides a very simple test, and I hope the Minister will be able to accept it.
Would the hon. Member include Rudolf Hess in that category?
He has not resided here.
I cannot accept the Amendment. It would place a naturalised subject in a more favourable position than a British subject, merely because he was naturalised. I am sure that is not what my hon. Friend wants.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 25.—(Provisions as to reciprocal arrangements with other parts of His Majesty's dominions.)
10.0 p.m.
I beg to move, in page 17, line 32, to leave out "being a part of His Majesty's dominions."
The Minister, if he so desires, can, under this Clause, make arrangements so that British subjects going to New Zealand, for instance, shall get benefits there, and New Zealanders coming here shall get the same benefits. The purpose of the Amendment is to give the Minister power to make reciprocal arrangements of that nature with countries outside the British Commonwealth and Empire. There may be, now or in the future, other countries with family allowance schemes, and I do not see why we should not give the Minister power, if he desires, to make such arrangements with them. It is permissive. There is no obligation on the Minister to make these arrangements but, if it would be an advantage to British subjects that this should be done, the Minister ought to have power to do it. It also seems to me that in a very small way this would be contributing to international co-operation and understanding.
I hope the Minister will not give way but will stand by the Clause. Those of us who have been pressing for years that there should be reciprocal arrangements with the Dominions in social services as far as possible are very pleased that the Government have put it in. We wish it to remain as it is for the opposite reason to that for which the hon. Member wants it altered. We wish to see a preference given within the British Empire, so that a man may not be prevented from going to New Zealand or elsewhere because the social services may not be as good as they are in this country.
I support the Amendment, which I think an eminently sensible one. The United Nations have been co-operating in many fields of activity during the past six years and, if it happened in future that there was one particular nation of the United Nations with whom we could make a reciprocal arrangement of this kind, it would bind the existing friendship. Suggestions have been put forward by such distinguished persons as Field-Marshal Smuts that we must endeavour to extend the sphere of influence of the British Commonwealth of Nations and have, as it were, associated members. Here is an opportunity of developing such an idea in the future, if the Minister thought the proposed arrangement reasonable. The Amendment shows a wide point of view, sensing the realities of the last few years when we have all worked together with many friends of different nations. It does not discriminate against the British Commonwealth in any way, and it allows for the extension of these advantages in some particular cases. In the case, for instance, of Norway or some country like that, we might well make arrangements of this kind.
I hope the Committee will not accept the Amendment. I have studied all the schemes in force in foreign countries, and they are all so absolutely different from our scheme, that there is not the slightest chance of any reciprocal arrangements. Therefore, if I were to put in a Clause allowing for reciprocal arrangements with foreign countries, it would be quite illusory. It would have no practical effect. It seems to me much better to adhere to the Clause as presented, and I hope we can make a start in what is a very important piece of Empire building.
Is the Minister sure that other countries will not follow the example that has been set here and remodel their legislation on our pattern?
Amendment negatived.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 26.—(Application to Scotland.)
I beg to move, in page 19, line 18, at end, insert, "the relief of."
This is a drafting Amendment. There is nothing sinister in it. There is nothing behind it. It is necessary owing to the fact that the draftsman, through error, omitted the words "the relief of" when he used the words "relating to the poor." As it stands it means hardly anything. "Relating to the relief of the poor," as it will read with the Amendment, refers to the Poor Law Act of Scotland. I see the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) looking somewhat critical, but I can assure him I have told him all I know—
That does not mean a great deal.
I can assure the hon. Member that this is a purely drafting Amendment.
When I made that intervention I did not mean it offensively. I was referring to the Scottish poor law. I remember there were only five Labour Members from Scotland when we passed the Poor Law Act in 1932. I am worried about the position of the boarded-out children, and I feel that this Amendment affects them. I want to ask the Minister to consult with the Secretary of State for Scotland and his English colleague to see if there is any way of bringing boarded-out children within the scope of the Bill. The phrase "relief of the poor" cancels them out, for the fact that they are in receipt of relief rules them out from being recipients of allowances under this Bill. I would ask the Minister to look at this matter again. I am very anxious about this Amendment, in regard to which some of us have waited a long time, and we do not all receive the salaries of Cabinet Ministers.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
I do not want to trespass too much on your good nature, Major Milner, but I wish to ask the Minister, not merely on behalf of Scotland but for the whole of the country, to consider the question of the boarded-out child. The guardian of the boarded-out child is debarred from receiving the children's allowance. I cannot speak for England or Wales, but the system of boarded-out children in Scotland is very humane. It is much more humane than the system of institutions. Frequently when these children are boarded-out they become like one of the family. The payment of the allowance would in many cases tend to make the guardian drop the poor law payment, and possibly apply for the adoption of the child. One of the disadvantages in applying for adoption now is that the moment application is made for adoption, the child ceases to be boarded-out and no payment can be made. I want to encourage adoption. Adoption is a good thing. I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to consult with the Secretary of State for Scotland and his other colleagues to see if he cannot encourage payment for the boarded-out child so that the child may be a part of the family by adoption. There is nothing worse for a child than, thinking his guardians are his mother and father, he sometimes takes their name when he goes to work and when his apprenticeship is finished his workmates discover that it is not his right name, which leads to difficulties.
I will certainly promise to look into the point which the hon. Member has raised, and to discuss it with my Scottish and English colleagues. I am told the practice is rather different in the two countries. I do not pretend to be familiar with the practice in Scot- land, and I am not as familiar as I should be with the practice in England. Before committing myself to any proposals, I will look into the matter, and I will be very pleased to do so because I am in agreement with a great deal of what the hon. Gentleman has said.
10.15 p.m.
I may raise this matter again on the Report stage, and I hope I shall then have the advantage of the presence of the Secretary of State for Scotland.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 27.—(Commencement.)
I beg to move, in page 19, line 27, after "force," insert:
"on the first day of October nineteen hundred and forty-five or earlier."
This simple Amendment lays down a date for the coming into operation of the Bill. We were told earlier that the Bill would not come into force until the end of the war, but I think I guessed rightly in putting down a date which would be after the end of the war in the West. I am not tied to this date, however, and I hope the Minister can take this opportunity of telling us his ideas on the subject. If he objects to the date in the Amendment, I do not mind if he inserts his own.
In the Second Reading Debate I ventured to prophesy that before the Bill reached its final stages the end of war in Europe would have come, and that it might be a very fine gesture for the Government to fix an operative date soon after the end of the war. I have an Amendment on the Paper suggesting 1st January, 1946, as the date, but I hope the Minister will now say something, not only to us but to the country, on this matter. We have had a series of White Papers and Bills, and I think there is a tendency to scepticism, which might become cynicism, about our passing Bills which have no date of operation or are rather in the nature of post-dated cheques. I hope that we shall get from the Minister a date when this Bill will be operative. Some hon. Members have talked as though a date would be in the dim and distant future, but I hope that its passage into law through both Houses of Parliament will now be expedited.
If I might say a word in reinforcement of what my two hon. Friends have said, it would be that there surely cannot be, in connection with the Bill, any difficulty, such as could quite legitimately be argued in the case of the Education Act, against stating a date in advance. The difficulty there was the human one of there not being enough room in the schools or enough teachers. Here there can be no such administrative difficulty in naming the date. Therefore I should like to support very warmly what has been said.
The difficulties are not so great as in the case of the Education Act, but let us profit from the example drawn from it of the danger of fixing a date to which we cannot thereafter adhere. My practical difficulty is—I have forgotten the figures for the moment—that there are about 7,000,000 children in respect of whom about 4,500,000 allowances will have to be paid, and obviously I shall have to get out a list, and some kind of index of those children. I shall obviously have to see that I do not get the same child in two or more different parts of the index. It is obviously going to take some time. I assume I had better get, as soon as I can, something like 2,000 people working on this job, with proper supervision. Then comes the question of where these people are to be housed—for I cannot get a building for them in the very near future—to start their work.
The Ministry of Information.
It will be wanted for other purposes. I have to get a staff, train them, build them up and get a building in which they can function. Subject to that difficulty my intention, when this Bill is passed, is, so far as it rests with me, to give the order "Full steam ahead" and I shall surmount all these difficulties so far as I can. I intend to get my index ready, so that at some date—Members in all parts of the Committee are in as good a position to guess as I am, and I am not even going to guess—at the earliest date, driving at the thing with energy and vigour, I can say, "Now I am ready to start." If I have my machine in order, the Government of the day will then have to consider when the machine shall start, and it is obvious that I cannot give any assurances about that. All that the Committee can reasonably ask of me is that I shall do the best I can to get the machinery in order at the earliest possible date. I cannot say more than that.
I hope the impression will not be created outside, from what has been said on the other side of the Committee, that the Government are not in earnest. I think it is a pity if there is any suspicion amongst—
It may be a pity, but it is true.
We ought not to give that idea. I believe that the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the Government are quite sincere in this matter, and the country ought to believe that, rather than take the other point of view.
One of our purposes in putting down the Amendment was to enable the Minister to make the statement he has made. I think we have served a real purpose in putting down the Amendment. I said that there was a growing cynicism in this country. It is one of the major problems we have to face in the next few months. I can remember the terrible cynicism at the end of the last war because in the last war there were, not White Papers, but promises galore. If we do not redeem the pledges we have given in these matters—[ Interruption. ] Of course this House has given pledges. That is what White Papers mean. If we do not implement them as soon as we can there will be a spread of cynicism which will be disastrous for our democratic institutions.
Could the Minister indicate, more or less off the record, whether he thinks it will take six months, 12 months, 18 months, to do this work?
Amendment negatived.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 28 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Provision as to Northern Ireland.)
Notwithstanding anything in the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, the Parliament of Northern Ireland shall have power, in con- nection with any scheme of family allowances established by any enactment of that Parliament, to make laws for purposes similar to the purposes of sections twenty-four and twenty-five of this Act.—[ Sir W. Jowitt. ]
Brought up, and read the First time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
The object of this Clause is to give Northern Ireland power to do what she wants to do and we hope she will do, in order that we may have a reciprocal scheme. According to the Constitution of Northern Ireland, the Government of Northern Ireland have not power to make laws in respect of various matters, relations with other parts of His Majesty's Dominions being one of them. At their request, we want to enlarge that power, so that they may be able to make a scheme like ours, to have reciprocity.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Tax deduction allowance for certain expenditure.)
Where any person in receipt of any allowance payable by this Act is in receipt of an income which after deduction of all tax allowances is subject to income tax it shall be lawful for such person to deduct from so much of the tax as is attributable to such allowance such sums as he may have incurred by way of expenditure for the benefit of any child of his over and above the sums permitted as an allowance for such child under the terms of the Income Tax Acts then for the time being in force.—[ Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe. ]
Brought up, and read the First time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
The object of the Clause is that taxation shall not so operate as to reduce the full benefit. When the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge) first mooted children's allowances, in his Report, he suggested 8s. a week. The Government have fixed a lower figure, and have explained that while their actual cash benefit will be 5s., there will be a substantial amount in kind. The House in general has accepted that principle. I think it is the general desire that the allowance shall be of 5s. value. But there are now something like 12,000,000 Income Tax payers in the country, and in many cases taxation will in fact reduce the children's allowances to 2s. 6d. a week. It would not be possible to suggest that the allowances should be free of tax, because the Treasury have certain principles, and one is that they do not like anything to be tax free. That is not a good argument for them to put up, because tax-free allowances are an established principle—all Service allowances are tax-free—but, to meet that rooted objection of the Treasury, we have drafted this Clause. It suggests that children's allowances shall remain subject to taxation, but that there shall be offset so much of the allowance as is in fact spent for the benefit of the child. It is recognised that where part of an income is devoted to a particular purpose the expenditure incurred in acquiring or earning that part of the income may be set off as a relief against taxation. It should also be borne in mind that our first idea must be to ensure that the money is spent for the benefit of the child. This Clause has the dual advantage that it meets both those points.
10.30 p.m.
The whole principle we have in mind here is that this is really the child's money and we had a long dispute on the question of the person to whom it should be paid, but leaving aside the differences and discussions which we had on that point, the main principle is that it is the child's money. If that is so, it is an income of £13 a year for each child in respect of whom payment is made and £13 is not an income which attracts tax. I therefore cannot help feeling that on the arguments put before the Committee there are perfectly good grounds for ensuring first that the child receives the allowance in full by the methods we have suggested, and that well-established principles are maintained, and if the Clause becomes part of the Bill it will ensure the child getting the full benefit of the allowance intended for it.
I have a new Clause on the Paper dealing with exemptions of allowances from tax. I should explain that the legal advice given to me is that the proposal might be very difficult to work I felt, therefore, that I should put down a straight exemption Clause and risk the wrath of the Treasury. At this late hour the Committee will not wish me to enter into any long discussion on this subject. I hesitated a good deal before putting down my Amendment but I felt this was a matter on which there would be a great deal of feeling and discussion when people realised that they did not get the full 5s. if they were above the Income Taxe limit. I really thought it right that someone should try to put the issue straightly before the Committee so that the Government might have an opportunity of putting down the reasons for rejecting it clearly before us, if they decide to reject it.
Having said that, I would like to express my personal opinion subject to anything my right hon. Friend may say. People in this country think that this family allowance is going to be 5s. in cash plus 3s. in kind. Therefore I would support all those Members who spoke in the earlier Debate and who saw signs that the Government wished to balance what they were giving with one hand by taking away with the other. The Members of this Committee wanted the child to get the full 5s. There are of course cases where the benefit will go to people who have very large incomes but it is the desire of hon. Members to give the benefit of the allowances to all. I think this ought to be said—that any benefit we can give in making these allowances free of tax has, of course, to be met by the general body of taxpayers. Therefore the very little amount that would be paid to those who are subject to high rates of taxes will in fact be received by those who have paid a fair contribution in respect of any benefits they may receive. I feel that in that way the burden of providing for family allowances will be more fairly divided. I would ask my right hon. and learned Friend to consider very seriously what will be the feeling of the workpeople of this country when they realise that they are not going to get the full value of this allowance.
I understand that it is approximately correct to say that a man earning up to £6 a week will be free of tax because nobody who has less than two children and a wife can get the benefit of these family allowances, and that the married man with two children can earn up to £6 a week without incurring tax. It is then said that £6 a week is a reasonable sum and if he is earning more than that he ought to be ready to pay tax on the family allowances. I put it to my right hon. Friend that we do not know what the purchasing power of money will be after the war. We have had a figure indicating something like a 150 per cent. rise over the pre-war cost of living index. I submit that £6 a week is not a very large sum for a married man with two children. Therefore, I think that the Government would be well advised to accept this new Clause. I am quite ready to hear the arguments of my right hon. Friend, but I have very little hope that he will take my advice. At any rate it gives me satisfaction to put the case squarely before the Government.
The object of the family allowance, after all, is to eliminate the financial element which bears against the proper maintenance of the child in the home, and I think the situation is not quite as it was put by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Brighton (Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe). Originally the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir William Beveridge) laid down a scale of 8s.—8s. in cash and 1s. in kind—and he based that on the subsistence level. Since then prices have risen somewhat, and now the Government have come along and are giving 5s. and only 2S. 6d. in kind, which is 2s. 6d. down on what the hon. Member recommended. Further, as we have seen this afternoon, they propose to eliminate substantial classes from the operation of this Bill, and, finally, we are down to the point that taxation at the normal rates is to apply. As my hon. and gallant Friend says, it may account for sums of approximately 2s. 6d.; in some cases even more. Surely we ought to support a Clause of this kind which makes sure that even if the allowance is only 5s., and somewhat short of what was meant from the point of view of subsistence, the full amount should operate, I hope, therefore, that the Committee will endorse this Clause.
It seems that there are two principles in this new Clause. The first is the inadequacy of the benefit. We are all agreed that it is inadequate but we have not been able to alter it, and so that is that. On the other hand, the only mechanism that exists in this country to balance the incomes of the wealthy as against the poor, is Income Tax and Super-tax, and I think the Minister is quite right in accepting the principle that these allowances ought to be subject to Income Tax. Also, in using the total amount of money which the Treasury is giving him for making the allowances, if he subjects it to tax, he will be able to give a higher rate of benefit and more to the people who really need it, instead of giving it to those who do not. So, on principle, I am quite sure the Minister is right to subject it to Income Tax. However, inasmuch as we cannot increase the rate of benefit—because only the Government could have done that—I think, as an immediate, practical thing to do, I would prefer the 5s. going to people who do not need it, if I am sure that the people who do need it will get it.
I would like to put one point to the Minister and I think he will be able to help the Committee without actually accepting either of these Clauses. This is to be subject to tax if the Government have their way. Is it to be regarded as earned income or unearned income? If it is to be regarded as the former, it is payable to the mother, it will be regarded as part of her earned income. She is allowed to have earned income, tax free up to £80 a year, so, if the Government decide to do that, it would, in most cases, be tax free to the mother who has not an income of her own.
Before the Minister replies may I refer to a point I was not able to deal with when I was speaking earlier? I am happy to notice that, for once when we are discussing a financial matter affecting the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here. I had expected that when we got on to a topic of this kind he would come bustling in to tell the Minister what to do. As he is not here, may I suggest to the Minister that this is a great opportunity to do something without the Chancellor of the Exchequer sitting beside him with a big stick?
That is a big temptation. I might exempt not only allowances in this Bill but in all other Bills from all taxation. But I am afraid the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have something to say. I do not want, when the hour is so late, to enter into a disquisition on the intricacies of Income Tax, nor do I wish to embark on the consideration of the merits or demerits of either of these two new Clauses, because there is one insuperable bar to the thing that hon. Members want to be done being done here. The principle, which always has applied without a solitary exception, is that Clauses relating to Income Tax or to Income Tax relief must find their places in a Finance Act. Let me give some illustrations. Disablement pensions including family allowances to disabled ex-members of the Forces are exempted from Income Tax, but they are exempted by Section 16 of the Finance Act of 1919; payments made in respect of children to widows of members of the Forces are exempted from tax by Section 27 of the Finance Act, 1922. So I could go on through a long list. The principle is always the same. If it is desired to raise questions of this kind it should be done in a Finance Act. The hon. Members who have put down these Clauses will in the very near future have the opportunity they seek of moving an appropriate Clause and putting it into the Finance Act. Then they will be able to take the Chancellor of the Exchequer to task.
Are we to understand from what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said, that he is going to recommend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to put this in the Finance Bill?
No. I will not do that. But for the reasons I have mentioned I could not possibly accept the new Clause here. I ask hon. Members not to press this new Clause, but to take their chance with the Chancellor of the Exchequer later.
Will the Minister reply to the question? Is this allowance to be regarded as earned or unearned income?
That is a question the Chancellor of the Exchequer will consider, no doubt, on the appropriate occasion.
Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and negatived.
Schedule agreed to.
Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, to be considered upon Tuesday, 29th May, and to be printed [Bill 60].
Welsh Church (Burial Grounds) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Major MILNER in the Chair]
CLAUSE 1.—(Untransferred burial grounds.)
10.45 p.m.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I wish to say a very few words on this Clause. I regret to say I was not present when the Bill was read a Second time, so I had no opportunity of joining in the general approbation of this Bill. I also had no opportunity at that time to controvert, in however mild a way, what my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomery (Mr. Clement Davies) said about the position of the Welsh University with regard to this Bill, and I hope you will allow me to be in Order for a very short time to say a word or two about the matter. These are the facts, very shortly, which the hon. and learned Member did not mention at the time. First of all, the University of Wales was—
The hon. Member must confine himself to the question of Clause 1 standing part. I am not aware that the University of Wales comes into that Clause.
May I ask for your guidance, whether you consider that the University of Wales comes in Clause 3?
I cannot say beforehand what my Ruling may be when we get to Clause 3. Quite clearly, the matter cannot arise on Clause 1. I am sorry.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 3.—(Maintenance of burial grounds.)
I beg to move, in page 2, line 30, after "body," to insert "in consultation with the incumbent."
It will mean that the representative body should not make any decision as to the maintenance of the churchyard without consulting the incumbent. I do not think I need detain the Committee. My words are quite simple. They mean what they say. If the representative body are to make any changes in the churchyards or undertake any repairs, then in my opinion they should consult the parson. I do not think I am putting it too high by wishing to insert these words, and I trust that the Attorney-General will see his way to accept my Amendment.
I am sure, if my hon. Friend who has moved this Amendment understood the great difficulties through which we have passed to try to get the question settled and how the Churches and Nonconformists have worked in harmony for the benefit of the country as a whole, he would not have moved this Amendment. One reason which should induce all of us to agree to the Bill in its present form should be that the representative body takes responsibility for the whole matter, and the representative body and the church people will only do what is consistent with the best traditions of the Church. I should imagine that on all occasions they would take the advice of the local priest, but I do not want, in any shape or form—and I am sure the Government, who are holding an even balance, realise it—to lessen the responsibilities which the representative body has taken on itself.
As a Church of England man who does not profess to be a Welshman living in Wales, I would like to support what the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Clement Davies) has said. This thing really solves a great difficulty. It solves a difficulty which has existed for years. I do not want to detain the Committee. I just want to say that I support what the hon. and learned Member has said.
I want to add one word on this Amendment. The hon. Member who moved it does not really know anything about the internal organisation of the Church in Wales. This matter is entirely for them.
I hope my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment, not only because it may not receive much support, but because I think it is based on a misunderstanding of the position, or a pos- sible misunderstanding of the position, as to the best way to administer this Bill. First of all—it is possibly a rather technical point—if you insert words into an Act of Parliament that something has to be done in consultation with somebody, you really do not achieve anything except a certain obscurity in a provision which could be complied with, without any useful purpose being served. What does it mean? Does it mean that whenever some minor proposal is made you have to write to the incumbent on the point? The real answer has been made by my hon. Friends who have spoken. It is that the real basis of this Bill is that the representative body which represents the Church and consists of persons appointed by bishops, clergy, and laity of the Church, has with the general agreement of everyone concerned undertaken the responsibility we put upon them by the Bill. It is right that this responsibility should be on that body in the Bill, and not be qualified in the way suggested, or in any other way. If one comes down to the substance of the thing, there is of course no doubt at all that the representative body in all the parishes where a burial ground exists will be in consultation with the incumbent, and will work in close co-operation with him. To put into the Bill a statutory provision that they must consult him would be, I am sure, a mistake.
I still do not make any apology for having moved this Amendment, because I do not like the centralisation of authority in Church or State. I think it is regrettable that the parson cannot be consulted even about the alteration of his churchyard. That is why I put this Amendment down on this Bill, but of course it is useless for me to press it any further, when I see the opposition arrayed against me, including that of the Attorney-General. With these words I will certainly withdraw the Amendment. I still say it is regrettable that authority is becoming centralised in the Church, and that in my opinion is to be deplored. I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in page 2, line 44, leave out Sub-section (3).
Perhaps the Attorney-General will be good enough to explain what the Government mean in the Bill when they say that a burial ground shall conform to the amenities around. Perhaps he will explain to the Committee what it means.
The words which are embodied in this Sub-section are one of the vital points in the general agreement arrived at, namely, that the representative body undertaking responsibility for the maintenance and upkeep of these burial grounds should have regard to the enjoyment by the public of the amenities of the locality in which the burial ground is situate. That was one of the vital points of the agreement, and if we committed this Sub-section—there are others in this Committee who, I have no doubt, can speak with more authority than I can—we should in effect wreck the agreement arrived at. I do not believe there is any real difficulty in understanding what these words mean. You have these areas, and the responsible body undertakes to have regard to the enjoyment by the public of the amenities. We all have seen burial grounds in England as well as in Wales, and although it may not be put into a sort of Euclidean definition, we can all recognise a burial ground kept up in accordance with these words and one which is not. A responsible body undertakes this obligation, and I have no doubt that the responsible body will carry it out in the letter and the spirit in which it has undertaken the obligation, and there will be no difficulty in saying what should be done and what should not be done.
I am still at a loss to see how a burial ground should have to be altered to correspond with local amenities. I am not going to repeat the speech I made on the Second Reading, but it seems to me that these ancient burial grounds, many of which would have inspired the "Elegy" of Gray, should not be altered and made to conform to the Germanic parks and chromium-plated lamp-posts which we shall find in the villages of future years.
I shudder to consider the churchyard, its paths bordered by low iron railings and spread with marble drippings with its smooth-pointed walls on which the moss and lichen will not grow. Even "the moping owl," herself, will no longer "to the moon complain" from her "ivy mantled tower," but will hie herself away to hoot and contemplate in fairer and more attractive places. But it is clear to me that the opposition to my suggestion is so vocal that without more ado I shall withdraw the Amendment, because quite clearly I cannot push it to a Division.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
May I have an opportunity to say a word on Clause 3?
There will be an opportunity on the Third Reading, if the hon. Gentleman wants to say a word then.
Clauses 4 to 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Provision as to certain burials.)
Where a burial in any such burial ground is conducted otherwise than in accordance with the rites of the Church in Wales it shall be conducted in an orderly and decent manner and on complaint of the incumbent the representative body shall after public enquiry, if need be, consider making any special rule designed to enforce the provision contained in this section.—[ Dr. Russell Thomas. ]
Brought up, and read the First time.
11 p.m.
I do not think there is much to do in the way of explanation of my Clause, because it speaks for itself. It is perfectly clear that the parson in the Bill—and I would point out that though this Bill has been prepared by agreement between the political parties and the representative body of the Church in Wales, it is still this House that has the last word, and rightly so—the parson has no means of controlling or objecting to the form of service which might be held. I am not referring to the great Nonconformist bodies who we know will perform their services with due reverence. There is nothing in the Bill to stop, say, two or three people of any peculiar sect from going into the churchyard and performing any ceremony they like. No one has the right to stop them. For instance, if I may quote an extreme instance, two or three people could say they were going to bury a person, they could dance on the grave or stand on their heads on the coffin, but the parson under this Bill has no right to object to this. I have therefore moved this Clause so that the parson can draw attention to this matter, referring it to the representative body, and that body could hold an inquiry into it. It is not compelled to do so but it would have the chance of taking the matter up if the parson protested. He should have the right to complain about what happens in his own churchyard, and my Clause gives him that right. For that reason I hope that my right hon. Friend will see his way to accept it.
I only rise for a few moments to express not only my own feelings but I am sure what would be the feelings of Welshmen wherever they may be. This Clause is, to put it mildly, insulting to my people. It is really despicable that such a Clause as this should ever have been put down on paper. Just see what it says:
"Where a burial in any such burial ground is conducted otherwise than in accordance with the rites of the Church in Wales it shall be conducted in an orderly and decent manner."
What it really suggests is that unless a burial is conducted in accordance with the rites of the Church in Wales it will be conducted in a disorderly manner and in an indecent manner.
May I interrupt?
No, the hon. Member may not. There is a certain type of person, of mind, that somehow seems to take a real delight in saying offensive things, particularly about his own people. One has had experience of this type of mind. It is a type that I and, I think, almost everybody in this House and in the country can only despise, the type of mind that we have come to recognise in this country as, taking the name from somebody well known in another small nation, the name of Quisling.
On a point of Order. What I have done I have done quite openly. The words "decent and orderly manner" are incorporated in the Bill, and they are in my Clause, and I object seriously that the hon. and learned Member should consider that he represents all Welshmen; he represents a section of Welshmen, and he should not—
That is not a point of Order.
He should not suggest that I am a Quisling.
The hon. Gentleman rose to a point of Order, but there was no point of Order in what he said.
I do not want to increase the temperature, but I am bound to say that, speaking as someone who is neither a Welshman nor a Nonconformist, I share the feelings expressed by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Davies). The whole basis—as everybody knows who is interested in this problem—is that the administration of these burial grounds should be without discrimination. This Clause—whether my hon. Friend who put it down realised it or not—would undoubtedly introduce an element of discrimination which those who are not members of the Church, and therefore do not bury those who have passed from us according to its rites, would be fully entitled to resent. Therefore I am sure my hon. Friend will not press it. Not only would there be no possibility of our accepting it, but it is contrary to the whole spirit which has animated all sides in the difficult matter of arriving at this settlement. I do not think we need contemplate it either in Wales or in any other part of these islands, but if there ever was anything which could be described as disorderly or indecent in a graveyard, there are provisions in the law which could deal with it, and it would, of course, be fantastic to suggest that a representative body would not be aware of it and take steps to see that it did not occur again. I hope that the Committee will perhaps accept the view that my hon. Friend did not intend to be offensive to those whom his Clause would affect, and that he will withdraw it so that we can conclude the Committee stage of this Bill in what I am sure everybody desires, namely, in the genuine spirit of agreement which has animated all concerned.
I do not agree with the Attorney-General, and I do not agree with the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Davies), who, in his arrogance, dared to say that, because I happen to champion the ancient traditions of Wales, I am a Quisling and a traitor to my country. The hon. and learned Member has no more right to speak for any Welshman than I myself. He happens to represent a majority in his constituency, but I can assure him that there is a huge minority who think otherwise and who are not represented by hon. Members opposite. I have every right, and I will exercise that right as long as I am in this House, of expressing my opinion on these matters, and I regret that the Attorney-General should adopt the attitude he did and agree with the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery. In this Clause I have not said any more than what is in the Bill. The Bill itself speaks of burials being made in a decent and orderly manner, and when I drew up this Clause I used the language of the Bill. I am not suggesting that those who bury in the ancient churchyards of Wales—the Nonconformist bodies and so on—would do anything but bury in an orderly and decent manner, but there may be a few people, a few out-of-the-way sects as I have said before, who might exercise their powers under this Bill and bury in a manner which would not be considered either decent or orderly. After all, this is the last act of disestablishment. We all know that the parson has been stripped of his coat, his waistcoat and all his other unmentionable garments, and my hon. Friends opposite sanctimoniously say, like the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery, "Come along, my friend, let us all march happily together to Paradise." I had no intention of introducing any bitterness in moving this Clause. That was due to the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery, who, in his usual doleful and mournful manner, so tiring, thought to attack me as a Quisling. I would have moved this with the gravity we usually use in these matters. Though it is clear I shall have to withdraw this Clause, nevertheless I shall not retract in the face of so many of my fellow-countrymen who appear to represent a bigoted majority of Welshmen. I beg leave to withdraw the Clause.
Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Bill reported, without Amendment.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
11.11 p.m.
I shall not detain the House more than a minute or two on this Third Reading, as one who is not a Churchman, but a Nonconformist, but, on the other hand, I want to say no one can charge me with being unfriendly to the Church in Wales—no one. I am one of those who consistently supported the Church in every possible way, in my own parish and in other parishes. I am very grateful indeed to the Government, the Home Secretary, and the Attorney-General for sponsoring this Bill in view of the fact that it is an agreed Measure, non-controversial. As the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Clement Davies) said on the Second Reading, we have had protracted negotiations on this Bill and the authorities of the Church in Wales, including the Welsh bishops, have agreed it; and to Clause 3, which is the operative Clause, as to the maintenance of these graveyards. They have agreed, and willingly.
If a very large sum of money may be required for this purpose, it need not be contributed by anybody else, for I am quite sure that the Church, and the representative body itself, will enlist the sympathy and the support of the whole people of Wales in helping them to maintain these graveyards in a decent way as provided in the Bill, without any assistance from any other body. I hope that I shall not be out of Order when I express this view—that if another provision had been inserted I think it would have—
We must not have anything to do with provisions not inserted, only with those which are.
I was afraid, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, you would probably call me to Order. I want to say this, that the suggestion was made—
It does not appear in the Bill.
I say again I congratulate the Government and the Church in Wales for carrying through this Bill and for taking the responsibility which they have undertaken. I know that the whole Welsh people—all of them—will be glad and proud that there is no controversy about this, and that they will give the fullest support to the Church in supporting this Bill.
11.15 p.m.
I do not want to detain the House at this late hour much longer, but I would like to point out on the Third Reading of this Bill, that although it is an agreed Measure—and agreed Measures are so constantly coming before this House that soon it will have no function left at all—and though I speak here as a lone voice, I am still a Member of this House and have every right to criticise this Bill—I should like to point out too that, in spite of what my hon. Friends opposite say, although I do not represent the majority of the people in Wales, nevertheless, there is a large minority. Many Welshmen are to be found in this country and in the four corners of the Empire, and the uttermost parts of the earth—and they might well not agree with my hon. Friends opposite—and I happen to be one of them. I say that this Bill fairly strips the parson of all his authority over his churchyard. He cannot, under this Bill, completely control the services of the Church itself. Under this Bill the representative body has to sanction the services that are held. He cannot arrange special services or say: "Next week I will have a service at 3 o'clock," because some outside body may wish to hold a funeral service which may clash with it. He is not even consulted as to the conditions of his own burial ground. He has no control of any kind over any funeral which may take place in the churchyard. His powers under the original Bill are far less—and they will be far less than that of the minister of any Nonconformist chapel over the chapel graveyard. The minister of Nonconformists and the deacons and trustees can refuse burial in their graveyard to even a member of their own congregation if they wish, but the parson has to admit anybody to a burial in his churchyard and allow any body of persons to perform any service they wish.
I am not exaggerating when I say that the ancient churchyards of Wales, over which the parson used to have control, are intimately connected with the ancient traditions of Wales, which had their roots in the dim and remote past, not the traditions which have been superimposed upon them in the last 200 years. Those are the traditions of St. David, the traditions of the minstrels and bards and the martial glory of the princes and the tradition which inspired at least the words, if not the music, of "Men of Harlech." Not the traditions of Calvinism which were inflicted on the country by the efforts of Griffith Jones, Howell Harris and Thomas Charles. I regret that I have to interfere in this Bill. I happen to be—as it were—Mr. Pym who Passes By. Perhaps I have left a fly or two in the ointment, the sweet smelling ointment, praised and lauded by my hon. Friends opposite but some of whose ingredients on analysis will hardly bear examination.
11.19 p.m.
I rise very shortly on the Third Reading of the Bill. When I was a very young man this question of the burial grounds of Wales was a burning topic, and I was only too delighted that in an atmosphere, with one exception, of unity on both sides, the matter has been completely disposed of. As for the hon Member for Southampton (Dr. Thomas), who seems to think that the only tradition in Wales is connected with burial grounds, I am glad to support him in that. If we believe in burials I should be only too glad to join in the funeral ceremony of the hon. Gentleman. He knows no more about Wales alive than he knows about Wales dead, but there is one thing which I think I am entitled to say. It is not right that I should adumbrate matters which are not contained in the Bill, but it is very proper that I should congratulate the Government on having obtained a measure of agreement upon the settlement of this problem without bringing into the agreement any requirement of assistance, or collaboration, or financial aid, from the local authorities of Wales, and I do heartily congratulate the Government on having been able to arrive at such a satisfactory conclusion. I congratulate the Government on having done so without any trouble or difficulty, or without any criticism upon those bodies. Indeed the Government are entitled to congratulation to such an extent that anybody who dares to suggest that the educational authorities of Wales ought to be criticised, or condemned, because they have not contributed, should likewise be criticised. There is no justification for such criticism at all. The Government have arrived at this amicable, solution, a solution which appeals to everybody, and anybody who condemns this solution is himself condemned by the Government. Therefore I welcome this amicable solution of this ancient problem. I welcome it, and I join in the condemnation of anybody who condemns this amicable solution, and, Mr. Speaker, I welcome the Third Reading of the Bill.
11.22 p.m.
This is a matter which concerns us all very much indeed and we are all very grateful. I am really only getting up to express our gratitude. We are all grateful co His Majesty's Government for the part they have played in bringing about, at last, agreement in regard to this matter which has caused so much controversy in the past. While thanking the Government, may I thank the representative body, and I do so as a Nonconformist, for undertaking this great burden and undertaking it not merely for the sake of the Church in Wales, but for church-people wherever they may be? It is a very heavy burden they have taken on. At the present moment they are not a body which possesses much money. They have to maintain their incumbents and the Church in Wales, and now under this Bill they are undertaking also to place these churchyards in a decent condition. We all realise that unfortunately during the past 30 years they have been neglected, and have become really a national disgrace. The burden therefore which will fall upon that representative body must necessarily be heavy. They have undertaken it willingly. I wish therefore that help could have been given them, but I am certain of this, that when this Bill becomes an Act it will be received with pleasure throughout Wales, and everyone will do his utmost to make the position of the representative body easier, and enable them to carry out what, after all, we shall regard as a national memorial.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
Agriculture (Artificial Insemination) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
11.25 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
About this time two years ago the House approved legislation—it was Section 17 of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1943—endorsing the principle of a controlled and orderly development of artificial insemination in this country. A great number of problems still require investigation, including such questions as bull management and psychology, the keeping-quality and dilution of semen, and insemination methods and technique. The investigation of these problems is unsuitable at an ordinary commercial centre, where it is essential that there should be no risk of letting down the farmers who are dependent upon the centre for bull service. Accordingly, in Clause 1 of this Bill, the Minister of Agriculture and the Secretary of State for Scotland are seeking the authority of the House to enable us to set up and operate artificial insemination centres, where research and experiments can be carried out. These centres would also require experience of practical methods of operation and would therefore, naturally provide a limited service to farmers in the neighbourhood. The Clause will also enable us to give financial assistance to outside organisations or private persons who are ready to carry out approved investigations into particular problems. This is desirable, as in some cases this may be the best method of getting an investigation of some particular aspect of the subject carried out.
In this country we have, up till now, thought of artificial insemination primarily for cows. It is possible that in time we may find it will prove equally useful for other classes of stock. Clause 1 has, therefore, been drawn wide enough to enable us to carry out investigations in the case of all animals, including poultry and bees—but not humans!
The second major part of the Bill is contained in Clauses 2, 3 and 4. This has rather a different object in view. As hon. Members will appreciate an artificial insemination centre will take some time to get into full working order and in the meantime will incur heavy capital expenditure. Good bulls, in this country are, unfortunately, not cheap. Experience has already shown that in the first two or three years centres are more likely to have to face losses than to make profits.
Clauses 2 and 3 therefore will enable the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister to make grants to any producer-controlled bodies responsible for the establishment and operation of artificial insemination centres for cattle in order to cover any approved losses during any accounting year during the period 1st January, 1945, to 31st March, 1950. It is also provided that where a centre starts to operate in the last twelve months of this period any losses may be covered dur- ing the whole of its first year's operations even if that year extends beyond the normal date of the termination of this scheme.
It is very desirable in the national interest that the State should underwrite in this way approved centres in the early stages of their development. We are satisfied, that while it has its dangers artificial insemination holds out great promise as a method of improving the breeding of livestock and in particular raising the standard of the smaller dairy herds where farmers would frequently be unable otherwise to get the services of a first-class bull. On the other hand, it may happen that some centres which begin operations in the early part of the five year period may begin to make profits in the fourth or fifth year. If that happens I think it is reasonable that the Exchequer should be recouped for at any rate, some part of the grants made in respect of earlier losses.
Hon. Members will notice that the authority to make grants is confined to producer-controlled centres. I should perhaps say a word or two about this point. The House will remember that during the Second Reading Debate on the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1943, my right hon. Friend said that while artificial insemination held out great possibilities for good it was also clear that it contained great possibilities for evil if it got into the hands of people who were going to exploit it purely for commercial gain. It was, I think, generally recognised that some system of control was therefore necessary. Representatives of the N.F.U., cattle breed societies, the Milk Marketing Board and certain scientific experts were consulted.
Who were the scientific experts?
They were experts who had known and dealt with this problem for 20 years or more, but if my hon. Friend requires the actual names I will gladly supply him.
I think the House would like to know.
If the hon. Member had told me that he wanted the names I would have come prepared, but I refer him to the name of Dr. J. Hammond, of Cambridge, who has a world-wide reputation on this matter. I think every Member who knows him would accept him as a scientist of the first order. My right hon. Friend consulted these various bodies and adopted their recommendation that artificial insemination ought to be developed as a national service on behalf of the livestock industry. If this is to be done it is important that the development should be on an orderly plan, and that there should be no exploitation of artificial insemination by sectional interests or by commercial firms for the purpose of private gain. For this reason it was decided that the general policy would be to restrict the issue of licences to establish artificial insemination centres to farmer-controlled organisations such as the Milk Marketing Board, the cattle breed societies and the farmers' co-operative societies. Such bodies could be relied on to ensure that the interests of users of the centres would be fully safeguarded. It is in accordance with this policy of restricting licences to producer-controlled organisations that Government assistance under Clauses 3 and 4 will also be confined to such bodies.
I am glad to say that in England and Wales the Milk Marketing Board are taking a leading part in the establishment of artificial insemination centres. It is a very appropriate development of the Board's activities, as it is already evident that artificial insemination is going to be of very much greater use for dairy herds than for beef herds. For the purpose of determining whether a grant will be payable to the Board the profits or losses on all the Board's centres, dispersed over the country, will be added together and only the net loss will be met by an Exchequer grant. The same principle is to be applied in the case of other organisations operating two or more centres.
Clause 5 also does away with a minor legal difficulty by removing the limitation in the Agricultural Marketing Acts under which a marketing board can only deal with registered producers. By this Clause the Milk Marketing Board will be able to serve all breeders of cattle within the area of operation of any of its centres, irrespective of whether or not they are registered producers of milk. This is apparently a small Measure, but I commend it to the House as one that I think will be a useful one designed to help us in our livestock improvement campaign.
11.34 p.m.
I do not apologise to the House for keeping them at this very late hour. We have discussed to-night allowances for children, and the burial of people, and now my right hon. Friend has asked us to consider a grant to the Minister of Agriculture, for research in insemination, according to this Bill. I must suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that before he asks this House to grant him money he should say what he wants it for. Does he want this money to inquire into the process of artificial insemination, or does he want it to carry on a practice which we all know is going on in this country to-day? The Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day, in describing research, said that it was an inquiry into something new. We all know that this practice has been going on in other countries for a number of years, but those countries have been trying other practices, and in these last 20 years have altered their opinions very much.
In this matter my own experience has not been too happy. The right hon. Gentleman said that this was a good thing for cattle. I think myself that people who keep cattle, horses, sheep and pigs would tell him that if it has been of any use in any direction, it has been in the case of the horse—horses more than cattle. One of my own constituents, who, when I first came to this House, said that I ought to make myself a nuisance and persuade the Government to do away with all except a very few bulls and to adopt artificial insemination entirely, has now completely altered his ideas. I suggest that in this process we are not trying, as science has so often done, to explain natural processes, we are doing something more. Nature has never been beaten. Nature cannot be deceived. The right hon. Gentleman is suggesting an inquiry into a phase of the secret of life which science is trying to unravel, and it would be much better if he came to this House and said, "I want money to inquire into this thing."
He is doing it.
No. The short Title of this Bill says that he wants money to inquire into research into artificial insemination, but in paragraph 1 of the Explanatory Memorandum it is clearly stated that the main purpose of this Bill is to facilitate the development of the practice of artificial insemination of livestock. It is common knowledge that this has been going on in Russia for 20 years and that they have made very good progress.
And in America.
I take semen from my own rams and send it to South America, so I know something about this thing. What I am trying to say is that we are now trying to interfere with one of the essential instincts in animals and human beings, the maternal instinct. It is not an easy easy subject to discuss. The mating of animals is not just like mixing an acid with an alkali. It is something more. The House ought not to approve this method without due consideration. We must hesitate about a matter of this magnitude; we must "stop, look and listen." We must say to the Minister of Agriculture: "In this matter you must have the greatest biologist and the greatest scientist; and, above all, you want a philosopher." There is more in this thing than mere biology. Have we got the people capable of deciding a thing like this? Have we the greatest people in the world? After this thing starts it goes a great deal farther. I am told that two children have been produced in England by this method. A stone starts an avalanche. If we interfere with the maternal instinct, may we not interfere with the future production of the species? Some 40 years ago, when I was a young man, I remember the then Master of Trinity, Professor J. J. Thompson, trying to unravel the constitution of the molecule and the atom. At that time it was just as outrageous to discuss the composition of matter as it is to-day to discuss the synthetic production of life. I tried to-night, without success, to get his book which discusses the composition of matter—which is very nearly related to what we are discussing. There was a preface in the form of poetry. I will not take a minute, and I will recite it as far as I remember it:
This thing is not so simple. This is a question of why and whence. What has the history of science been? It has been this—that we find one thing and we apply it to another. Apply this to human beings, and what would become of us if we were all propagated by this method? These are serious things. I could go on reminding the House of dozens and dozens of instances where natural processes have been interfered with.
I must remind the hon. Member that this Bill deals with livestock and nothing else.
I gladly accept your Ruling, Sir, but on a point of Order I beg to ask you if this Bill does not seek to introduce a new way of producing life. The way has been used, at any rate, for the last twenty years. May I not be permitted to draw attention to other natural processes which have been introduced?
I do not think that on this occasion we can embark on a wide discussion of general principles. If we embark on the whole principle of artificial insemination of human beings, there will be no end to it.
I thank you for your Ruling, Sir. I have said half of what I wanted to say, and I will simply conclude by saying to the Minister of Agriculture: "What has been done for the last twenty or thirty years may be quite right, you may propagate your animals this way"—as I cannot mention human beings, I will not mention them—"but this world has existed for millions of years and ask yourselves: 'What are you going to do with the maternal instinct?' If you destroy it we may be facing a major tragedy."
11.47 p.m.
My hon. Friend who has just spoken has called attention to the difficult and complicated problems to which this question of artificial insemination gives rise. I am not convinced that his remarks helped to clarify our minds very much as to a solution of the problems. I would like, on behalf of my hon. Friends on these benches, to congratulate the Government on bringing in a Bill of this kind. Although it is going to expend about £250,000, I think on the whole it will be money well spent. I have seen one of the artificial insemination centres at Cambridge and the work of Dr. Hammond, and I am satisfied from what I could see that very important work has been done there. It is surely clear that this country is in a pioneering stage. The Russians have done tremendous work on this for years, and it is of very considerable practical application there, but we must not argue that for that reason we can apply it indiscriminately here.
In this country we have a right to regard our livestock as being of a very high standard or, at least, to be accurate, I should say we produce the finest livestock in the world, but our average standard is not as high as it should or could be. This, I think, is possibly one way in which we can more rapidly improve it. The problem of rapid increase is going to be very important. The Continent of Europe is now terribly short of livestock, and a rapid rate of increase would be secured by eliminating the longer natural process. But we have to be very careful in this country, because our main problem is not so much a rapid increase as a rise in the quality of our livestock, particularly dairy livestock. I do not think much can be said with regard to beef cattle. We have some very fine strains of herds and our breed societies have kept them up to a pretty good level. Much of our show points, and the competitions at shows, have been concerned with the physical characteristics of cattle for beef, but unfortunately, there has been nothing like that amount of work done in regard to competitions with a view to increasing the milking qualities of our livestock. This is where I feel there is a certain need.
My right hon. Friend has just said that there is not only a prospect of rapid improvement if this matter is well done, but there is a danger of a rapid deterioration if we do not get the right stock. It all depends on what kind of bulls we are going to use in these insemination centres, and it is extremely difficult to be sure, in regard to dairy stock, that we have the right types, because you cannot judge so much from show points. You have to look at records, and go back and look at the ancestry of the animal, and see what its performance has been. Unfortunately, in many of our herds we have not the data to go on. Take the Shorthorn breed as an example. It is very difficult to pick out a dairy shorthorn bull which has a really good dairy record behind it. There is nearly always some fault in the dairy records. There are certain breeds like the Ayrshires and Frisians where we can be on surer ground. But in a breed like the Shorthorns, which are the commonest in this country perhaps, there is not anything like the data to go on.
I am not at all sure whether we have got, in regard to artificial insemination centres, the stock we can quite certainly use for improving the quality of our dairy cattle. I should like to know from my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary what steps are being taken to see what class of bulls, particularly of the dairy kind, are being used and whether the Ministry are satisfied they have good records. I know that the Ministry is now taking steps with regard to licensing bulls, with a view to permitting the licensing of bulls to be connected with dairy records, the ancestry of the bull. Up to now this has not been so much the case. They have judged them, and given licences to bulls, on physical points, on conformations. In view of the new regulations, which I understand the Ministry has issued, instructing livestock officers to give licences for bulls on a new basis, I hope the Ministry have been extremely careful as to the type of dairy bulls being used in these artificial insemination centres. While uttering this note of warning and calling attention to the fact that it is the standard of dairy stock that we mainly need to raise, in general I give support to this Bill, which I hope will be another step forward in the general improvement of our livestock.
11.56 p.m.
I welcome this small Bill and hope it will secure further research into this process, which is potentially useful but possibly dangerous, if not properly controlled. There is some apprehension lest undue priority might be given to the claims of some of the more popular and larger breeds owing to the most proper influence given to the Milk Marketing Board. Will the Minister dispel a certain fear that has been aroused that there may be discrimination against the less widespread breeds?
11.57 p.m.
I have not the fears of my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Radcliffe (Mr. Wootton-Davies) because artificial insemination has been practised for many hundreds, if not thousands, of years by both the Arabs and the Egyptians, but I ask this one question: Are non-profit-making farmer-producer societies, formed on a voluntary basis, allowed to carry out artificial insemination? Another question I would like to ask is: Why are the Milk Marketing Board, who are primarily manufacturers under present day conditions, allowed to carry on these artificial insemination centres, without including other manufacturers at the same time?
11.58 p.m.
May I now reply to the points that have been made? My hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Radcliffe (Mr. Wootton-Davies) made a scientific approach to this matter and spoke with some considerable knowledge of it. He would not expect me at this late hour to go into the pros and cons of artificial insemination, because this House approved the principle of research into artificial insemination in the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1943, and in the course of the Debate on that Act my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture made it very clear that this is confined to research, and practice related to that research, into artificial insemination connected with animals alone. In the Preamble and short Title of this Bill that is further reinforced. I think, too, his honest scientific fears can be set at rest, as the two agricultural Ministers have arranged in the printed regulations, which at this late hour I will not read but which are very comprehensive, to control this practice from all angles. I trust that my hon. Friend will agree that we are taking every possible precaution to see that this matter is kept under proper control, and that it progresses in an orderly manner.
The hon. member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price), with his practical experience, gained in Russia, I understand, contributed to the Debate some valuable points about conditions there, but there could not be the application of methods in this country on the scale there is in Russia. That is why we desire to learn more about the practice of artificial insemination here. My hon. Friend also raised the question in relation to milk production. There has been a vast increase in the consumption of milk, and it is necessary that it should go on increasing, but only milk of the best quality. The Milk Marketing Board is the biggest organisation handling milk. I would also suggest to the House that one of the ways of increasing the milk production may be by use of artificial insemination in small herds. Very often the owner of a small herd is unable to buy a good bull, particularly in the more remote rural areas, with the cost of transport. I suggest that this artificial insemination scheme may be one of the methods of helping a great number of small herds, which in turn must make a difference to our milk supplies. We want to get rid of the scrub bull. I can also assure the House that we are giving the closest attention to the selection of the bulls that are to be used for the purpose of artificial insemination. It is obviously the foundation of the whole future of the scheme, and there will be thorough control.
Some apprehension has been expressed about the possibility of discrimination between breeds, but I can say at once to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Wing-Commander James) that there is to be no discrimination. Every cattle breed society can set up an approved centre. The point has also been raised about the Milk Marketing Board and its inclusion in the Bill. This is the biggest producer-controlled organization and for that reason it is the obvious channel, I think, for carrying out the suggested scheme. I trust these few words will have answered the points raised, and I trust the Bill will be given a Second Reading.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
Agriculture (Artificial Insemination) [Money]
Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 69.
[Major MILNER in the Chair]
Resolved:
"That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to enable the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State to make contributions and establish centres for the purposes of research as to the practice of artificial insemination of livestock, to provide for the payment of grants out of moneys provided by Parliament in respect of initial losses incurred in the operation of certain centres for the artificial insemination of cattle, and for purposes connected therewith, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—
(1) of any expenses incurred in accordance with the provisions of the said Act by the said Minister and the Secretary of State, respectively—
(2) of any sums required for the payment in accordance with the provisions of the said Act of grants in respect of losses incurred, during a period beginning on or after the 1st January, 1945, and ending not later than the 31st March, 1951, in the operation of centres providing services of artificial insemination for cattle in Great Britain, being centres owned and controlled by Milk Marketing Boards or other organisations carrying on business for the mutual benefit of breeders or owners of cattle;
King's Recommendation signified. )—[ Mr. T. Williams. ]
Resolution to be reported upon Tuesday, 29th May.
Remaining Order read, and postponed.
Coastal Areas (Rehabilitation Grants)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Cary. ]
12.6 a.m.
I must apologise for speaking to the House at this early hour in the morning. I do so only because this is a subject which is of such vital importance to the coastal resorts in different parts of the South of England. As far back as last November we were informed that a loan of £150 was to be allowed to people who needed it in coastal resorts for the especial purpose of helping the working people of this country to have some kind of rest and holiday after the German war was over and, if possible, in the first summer after that. We had a Debate on the subject in January, and, about a fortnight or three weeks ago, in the middle of April, I asked the Minister of Health how far people were taking up these loans. I was rather unhappy to hear from the Minister's answer that he was not at that time certain how far the thing was going well or badly. We in the coastal resorts knew, alas, only too well, that the thing was not going well, and that people were not taking up these loans.
The whole purpose of these loans was that the workers of the country, people who are being released from the Forces, and those who are on leave, should get the opportunity of going to the coastal resorts and pulling themselves together for a short time before going back to their own work. The summer is the time for it and, quite obviously, nothing much could be done unless work was started several months before. Yet here we are in the month of May and practically nothing has been done about it at all. I must say that I am a little sorry, early in the morning as it is, to see that, with the exception of the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg), who is an Independent, there is not a soul on the Opposition benches to listen or to take part in this discussion.
There are just a few points that I would like to ask the Government through the Minister of Health. Are the Government really sincere and genuine in their desire to help these areas? They have told us that though £150 is the most they can grant, they realise fully the great needs of the people in these districts, and they hope that this will help them to prepare for the summer season. But what has happened? They have done next to nothing about it, beyond approaching the local authorities and, as far as I can see, leaving it to the local authorities to prepare this matter. There are Public Relations Officers at the many Ministries which are concerned with this matter. My fellow Member for Brighton (Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe) asked the Prime Minister some months ago if there was not one Minister who could be approached on this subject instead of several. He was informed that the Minister of Reconstruction might be a suitable person, but in the meantime the Minister of Health seems to be the one who is always having the Questions put to him and is kind enough to answer them as far as he can. If they were really, genuinely keen on this matter, surely they would be aware of what is happening in the different local authorities; surely they would do something to help the matter on.
Take my own constituency, Brighton and Hove, which is the one I prefer to talk about, as it is the one I know most about. The Secretary of State for War informed us a few weeks ago that in those two boroughs something like 8,000 to 9,000 rooms were still requisitioned. If that is so, one cannot believe that all the rooms belonging to hotels and lodging houses are requisitioned. There must be an equivalent number, or something like it, not requisitioned. Yet Ministers, in all their speeches discussing this subject, and Members of Parliament for these divisions, have stressed the fact that very real distress exists among lodging-house keepers, and so on. If this is so, there should be hundreds if not thousands of applications. Take Brighton alone. In Brighton they have had, I understand, an advance of a proportion of the grant since last March—or in the last two or three months. They have made a certain amount of publicity about it, and have had a score of applications. Eleven seem suitable. They sent some papers to fill in, and the net result was that only one has answered and taken it up. In Hove, where they have not yet applied to the Minister, only two applications have been received so far in the whole borough.
There must be something wrong. I ask the Minister of Health if he will not try to find out what is upsetting the scheme. They tell me in Hove they are in a very difficult position. To ask for a grant they have to tell the Minister how many people they are likely to have. The local authorities have to tell the Minister of Health before the Minister decides whether to grant the loan or not. They say as that they are not certain they are to get the grant anyway they will not publicise it. I think the principal reason why the scheme is not succeeding is, first and foremost, that the average lodging-house keeper or person who would receive this grant wonders what on earth is the use of this grant if he cannot get any labour with which to work it. They can have £150 but nobody to work for them. They are anxious to do all they can to help workers to come down for their holidays, but they have no labour. That is a matter for the Minister of Labour. They wonder what is the use of receiving £150, if they have not any priority to buy goods, and cannot purchase the stuff to put their houses right. That is a matter for the Board of Trade. They wonder why they should land themselves with a loan of £150, when they cannot even get their homes and lodging houses working, because these are requisitioned, and seem to go on being requisitioned. Indeed, even if they are derequisitioned nothing can be done about it.
At that moment—and this is the tragedy—in steps the London speculator. I know of a case that is well known in Brighton—the case of Embassy Court. Before the war that was called a "white elephant." As everybody knows, people were begged to take flats in it. Some took flats before the war; their rents were reduced; and that went on until the last few months. Now, knowing well that lodging houses would be de-requisitioned, those concerned turned to the tenants and told them that when their leases were up they could not stay there unless they took a seven years' lease with a 75 per cent. increase in rent. That is causing an appalling amount of discontent in the neighbourhood, but it is the sort of thing that will go on if nothing more active is done than is being done at the present moment to help a situation which, in many ways, is critical in these areas. Further, I would ask, is £150 enough to enable anyone, at the present value of the pound, to put a house right? These seem to me to be reasons why people are not applying for the grant.
May I point to one or two details which I hope the Minister will not forget? The Minister suggests, I believe, to the authorities that where they make these loans they should charge 2½ per cent. That is going to mean that only a few people will be able to afford it. As they have only to pay the loan back to the Government and have not to pay the interest on it they will be covered. But if there are only two applications and one fails, 2½ per cent. is certainly not going to save them. If there are only 15 applicants in Brighton, that figure will have to be considerably altered. That is a question which the Minister will have to go into soon. Many feel that possibly we shall get applications from retailers, since it is easier to obtain goods. But we do not know how long this loan is to continue. We have already found the Minister suggesting that repayments should start by next October, but we have not even started giving the money out. That is something that will have to be looked into. It seems to me that we must frankly face the fact that this scheme of granting a loan of £150 is failing.
Many of us in these coastal areas feel that we have, during this war, done our level best for the nation by handing over our places, properties and homes to the Forces and to the evacuated where necessary, losing our livelihood in order to make the South coast safe and protect the rest of England. If that is the case, we feel that to put us back on our feet again is a matter of national interest and ought not to be a question for the local authorities. That being so, I beg the Minister to take note of the fact that this scheme is not working properly; that we are now at the start of the summer and Whitsun is in front of us, and something ought to be done now if it is really intended that the workers of the country should get their seaside holidays. Will the Minister please try to ginger up the other Ministries—the Board of Trade or Ministry of Labour, or whatever Departments they may be—who are not playing their part? We need assistance.
I rise, as the most miserable Member of the House. I am appalled at the lack of interest shown in the problems of the coastal areas, because in the days of dark despair, when Britain was faced with the possibility of invasion, these coastal areas were evacuated, not for their own good, but for the benefit of England as a whole, and I think it is sad—even though it is after midnight—to see so few people in the House at the present time. The evacuation of our areas was, I must repeat, carried out at Government request, and we did believe that during the last Debate we had won a very considerable battle with the Government in getting them to admit that the responsibility for the evacuation was the Government's, and the Government's alone. The £150 loan is absolutely no good. There is no question about that. We never asked for £150. We asked for a minimum of £500. This might have been of some use, but coming back to the small amount which we were granted, how does one arrive at that £150? I am informed that in order to get the £150, which is only a loan for which the local authorities are responsible to the Government for repayment—it is not the individual who is responsible to the Government; it is the local authorties—in order to get that £150 as a loan for a short period, for 4 or 5 years, you have to fill in all the usual sort of Government forms—"Have you cleaned your teeth this morning?"; "Did you have your hair cut last night?" and that sort of thing—almost going into the family history of the individual.
I would like to know from the Minister whether there is a standard form for individuals applying for this loan. If so, I would ask him to send a copy to the various Members of Parliament representing the areas in which the loan can be applied for. Having gone through all these forms and completed all the data and information the Government Departments require, what can you get for it? The Board of Trade have absolutely refused to play ball. They have given no priority whatever. They have given no extra coupons to the boarding-house keepers and hoteliers and local traders in our areas. They have continued to export textiles and household goods, although, in order to provide for holidays for people in this country, we in these coastal areas must have those essential commodities to start again. The Board of Trade has done nothing about it.
For weeks I have been urging the Ministry of Labour to give us more labour. At the moment all our mobile labour is drafted away from us. We are not allowed to retain it. I know that does not affect the Ministry of Health, and I am sorry that no representative of the Ministry of Labour is here this evening. The hotels and boarding houses cannot get staff. The Service Departments are carrying out a sort of survey at the moment which is obviously going to take many weeks, to see what properties can be derequisitioned in our areas. So far, they have released a very small number. But they have not really tackled the problem as it should have been tackled. They have not carried out a weekly or monthly survey to see what is required for their own purposes. I believe if this were carried out, we should get in our coastal areas a large number of hotels, schools and boarding houses released much sooner than we are getting them at the present time. I think the whole thing needs overhauling. I would go further and ask the Minister of Health to be decent about this, to be generous about it. I ask him to withdraw this Statutory Rule and Order, which gave authority for the £150 loan. In the Debate on the Prayer which I had the honour of moving in this House, it was stated that the loan was an instalment, and that when it was found out how many applications were made for that £150 loan, then the Government would decide whether a further instalment should be made, and a greater amount given. So I ask the Minister of Health, now, to consider withdrawing that Statutory Rule and Order, and supplanting it with a new one giving at least £500.
May I ask two questions before my right hon. and learned Friend replies? Could he make clear to what areas this grant applies? Is it the areas only on the South coast, or areas anywhere where lodging-house-keepers take in guests? Secondly—the very important point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Flight Lieutenant Teeling)—has the Minister no power under the Rent Acts to deal with the activities of sharks like the owners of Embassy Court, Hove, and others who are blackmailing their tenants in this way?
12.26 a.m.
I have every sympathy with Members in their anxiety to recover the life and activity of these areas at the earliest possible moment and I shall try to deal with the variety of points that have been raised, so far as I can in the short time available. I would assure the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Flight Lieutenant Teeling) that we are most sincere in our desire to see these towns fulfilling their normal purpose. The root trouble of this matter is that we are, and shall be for a long time, I fear, in a state of great stringency in regard to the production of furniture and other goods and in regard to labour; and I cannot think that there is such hesitation as he suggested about accepting the loan of £150, at a very low rate of interest, because it is difficult to get the work done, or that this is a time to go beyond that figure.
But may I give the House some information? The complaint was made that we did not seem to know what was happening. May I tell the House that up to the 15th of May, there had been 42 applications from local authorities for authorisation to use this scheme, and up to that time 30 of those applications had been granted, including Eastbourne and Brighton—indeed for Eastbourne authorisation was given on the 7th of February, which was earlier than most, and an initial advance of £3,000 was made. We did not get immediate returns from the local authorities on the amount of the loans that they have made to their people. We have regarded this as essentially a local activity, once the authorisation is given by itself, and that is really the answer to the question that has been asked about publicity for this scheme. Mine is not, as a matter of fact, one of the departments with a large staff of public relations officers, but even if it were I should regard notices in the National Press as not nearly so important as action taken locally in the particular towns suffering from the effects of evacuation and the other circumstances which have been mentioned, and I cannot think, from the information I have, that there has not been the publicity needed to make the scheme known. The difficulties are other than that. One difficulty—although this is not a matter within my control—is that derequisitioning is undoubtedly a difficult process, in many cases, in these places. Other Ministers have been asked about their principles of this matter, and they have said quite conclusively that the earliest priority for derequisitioning should be houses, and then schools. With regard to the larger boarding houses or hotels, however, I can well believe that there are cases where it is very difficult indeed at once to derequisition those that are under requisition.
It has been suggested, and I have already said a word about it, that there is some standard form catechism sent out. I have no information on this, and I can only say that the advice given to the local authorities is that they should use their own methods. We have certainly issued no standard form of the kind suggested.
With regard to the actual making of the loans, it has been suggested that local authorities are hesitating because of the risks. We have discussed this point with the local authorities and they have agreed that the matter should be left in their hands. The basis on which loans to the local authorities are granted is, therefore, that they should manage the affair as between themselves and their individual applicants, using their own discretion and their local knowledge in the matter of any security to be asked. That I cannot help feeling is the right position.
Then another question was asked about the arrangements where the local authority has to be repaid by agreed instalments from a certain date, and it was suggested that there is some doubt about the effect of this part of the scheme. I can reassure hon. Members that the regulation is wide enough to cover an extension of time beyond the period for which it was originally designed, and so far as repayment is concerned there need be no anxiety at all. We are anxious to do> all we can, and indeed it has been suggested that we have drawn the regulation wider than what was contemplated by Parliament when the power to make the regulation was given. We have certainly used that power to the full.
The priorities we have been asked for with regard to articles controlled by the Board of Trade present difficulties. I can assure hon. Members that we are concerned about them, but in fact there is such a desperate shortage in ordinary houses that it is extremely difficult to divert these articles to hotels. The House has also heard about the extreme shortage of domestics, about whom another question was asked. We have done our best, and we will do more at the earliest possible date. In conclusion, I can only say that I hope that the towns in which hon. Members are particularly interested will soon be able to reap greater benefit from the regulations than they are feeling at the moment.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-seven Minutes before One o'Clock on Friday, 18th May.