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Commons Chamber

Volume 418: debated on Wednesday 23 January 1946

House of Commons

Wednesday, January 23, 1946

The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]

Private Business

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Mortlake Crematorium Board) Bill

"to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the Mortlake Crematorium Board," presented by Mr. Bevan, and read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 66.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Government Departments (Legal Liability)

asked the Attorney-General whether he is aware of the hardship caused to persons by reason of the immunity of most Government departments from action being taken against them in tort or for breach of contract, that to remedy this defect a Crown Proceedings Bill, Cmd. 2842, was introduced in this House in 1927 and has been mentioned several times since, the last time being in 1935; and if it is the intention of the Government at any time in the near future to re-introduce the Crown Proceedings Bill to remedy this gap in the law.

asked the Attorney-General whether, in view of the proposals for nationalisation, involving increased power and responsibility for Government departments, he will introduce a Bill which will place the Crown in the same position as the subject in matters of litigation.

I do not think the hardship to which the hon. and gallant Member refers is very serious in practice, but the question of preparing a Crown Proceedings Bill is receiving preliminary consideration. This consideration has shown that alterations in the Bill to which the hon. and gallant Member refers would be necessary. Owing to the heavy legislative programme it is not possible to undertake this task and to introduce this Bill this Session. My noble Friend the Lord Chancellor is anxious that the work should be proceeded with as soon as more urgent business permits, and the hon. and gallant Member may rest assured that the matter will not be lost sight of.

While thanking the Solicitor-General for his answer—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—Out of courtesy—I would like to ask him whether he is aware that there are many cases at the present moment which this Bill would help considerably, and that there are cases which show that the Bill is an urgent measure and not one that can be left indefinitely until other legislative business has gone through this House.

I quite accept that, and, indeed, I said so in my answer, but there are other Bills which are even more urgent and it is a question of priority.

Does not the Solicitor-General realise that the liberty of the subject, for which so many have fought and died through the ages, is in jeopardy, and that under the policy of this Government we are in danger of repeating the fate of Germany?

I realise nothing of the sort and I do not accept for a moment that that is so.

Is the Solicitor-General aware that I have a case this week of a constituent of mine, a young lady, who lost an eye in the service of the Air Ministry and has been awarded a compensation of 3s. 3d. a week for the loss of that eye, and that as the situation is at present she would appear to have no redress in the courts?

No, Sir, I am not aware of the case, but if my hon. and gallant Friend will send me particulars I will be very happy to consider it and to see if there is anything I can do about it.

Will the Solicitor-General also consider the operation of the Public Authorities Protection Acts and Civilian Injuries Scheme, which also operate to deprive the subject of his rights against the Crown and result in cases of real hardship? Pending the introduction of this legislation, will he instruct the Treasury Solicitors or the persons advising His Majesty's Government in litigation not to plead these defences in case of hardship?

Would the Solicitor-General ask his Noble Friend to consider this very carefully and, whilst making suitable Amendments, to be extremely suspicious of the anxiety of the Tory Party in the matter?

Nuremberg Trials (Attorney-General's Fee)

asked the Attorney-General what fees are being paid for his services at the Nuremberg trials.

The amount of the Attorney-General's fee has not yet been decided. As hon. Members will be aware, the Attorney-General has not been present throughout the trial and this is naturally a circumstance that would be taken into account in determining the amount of his fee. The final decision as to the amount of his fee cannot be arrived at, however, until the proceedings at Nuremberg are terminated.

Is it in conformity with modern ideas and with the Government's political philosophy that he should receive a large fee at all in view of the fact that he also gets a salary?

Will the Solicitor-General explain why it is that the Law Officers alone apparently get extra emoluments and no other Minister?

Military Courts (Defending Officers)

asked the Attorney-General whether, having regard to the ruling of the Bar Council as to members of the Bar appearing at the Nuremberg trial, it is the intention that barristers serving in the Army should be ordered to defend war criminals at military courts; and whether, in view of the fact that many such officers have conscientious scruples against so acting, he will consult with the War Office with a view to relieving officers from such duty if they so desire.

I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to the answer given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Viscountess Davidson).

Royal Air Force

Transport Command

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is satisfied that the training of aircrews in Transport Command is of the same high standard as that in B.O.A.C; and in what respect the training standards differ.

The standards of training are similar, both for basic training and for conversion to transport work. There are some minor differences in the conversion training. B.O.A.C. have, in fact, selected many crews who have been trained by Transport Command. They are then given further experience by B.O.A.C. and for that reason and because of demobilisation it is probably true that B.O.A.C. now have the more experienced crews.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he will state the monthly number of accidents in Transport Command from November to date; giving the number of casualties, fatal or otherwise, in each case.

We are now publishing accident figures for scheduled services, special flights and trooping movements carried out by Transport Command and all other Commands of the Royal Air Force. The figures for November have been placed in the Library of the House, and the return for December will soon be ready.

Will the Minister give an assurance that prisoners of war brought home from the Far East will not fly across Europe during the winter months?

I shall be making a statement on the whole question of accidents and the trooping programme at the end of Questions. Perhaps the hon. Member will wait till then.

The Minister says the figures have been placed in the Library of the House. Why are they not published in HANSARD?

That was the arrangement we came to in reply to several other representations earlier on, but of course they can be published in the Press.

Greatcoats (Released Personnel)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that R.A.F. overcoats surrendered by airmen on demobilisation at Cardington, are thrown into lorries and driven away; what becomes of them; and why airmen cannot retain them when they are demobilised during the winter months.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether demobilised men who proceed from the demobilisation centre in uniform are allowed to take with them their service greatcoat.

We have to keep these greatcoats because of the need to economise with all Service clothing. They are usually cleaned and repaired for issue to recruits or for other airmen's working kit. The Ministry of Supply deal with any which cannot be repaired. A member of the Air Force can wear a civilian raincoat with uniform during his release leave. But if there is no suitable raincoat ready for him at the clothing centre, he can borrow his Service greatcoat while he is waiting for the raincoat.

Is my hon. Friend aware that men who have been accustomed to wearing this thick Service overcoat until the last day before demobilisation and are then given a thin raincoat instead are having their health imperilled, and that there are many cases in which this has been done?

The raincoat is usually a lined one—a very decent garment. I have one myself.

Would the hon. Gentleman not consider the possibility of allowing the men to retain the greatcoat at least until the end of the 56 days' leave?

We could consider that, but the coats are very urgently needed for the remaining members of the R.A.F. so that we do not divert clothing production in order to go on producing uniforms.

Polish Personnel (Repatriation)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what proportion of the Poles in each R.A.F. Command have chosen to return to Poland.

Just over ·5 per cent. of the Polish Air Force serving with the R.A.F. in this country have so far chosen to return to Poland. The proportion is just under ·5 per cent. in R.A.F. Commands overseas.

Will the Minister confirm that what he means by "point 5" is one-half of 1 per cent.?

May I ask whether the Minister will translate for the information of the House his "point 5 per cent." into an intelligible figure? What number does he mean?

We are all aware of this game of percentages. Will the Minister translate his percentage into the actual numbers involved? How many are there?

Bombing Range, St. Austell

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air when the R.A.F. intend to remove the bombing targets in St. Austell Bay, Cornwall; and when these targets were last used.

This range will probably be required again for experiments directed to improve the safe employment of some of our explosives. Trials there were planned in December, but had to be cancelled owing to bad weather; the range was last used in July, 1945. It cannot yet be given up.

Marston Moor Airfield

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that repairs are being carried out at Marston Moor Aerodrome, Yorkshire; and whether he is satisfied that the use of materials for this purpose is justified in the light of the housing shortage.

Nothing more than maintenance work is now being carried out at Marston Moor. The amount of materials used there is very small.

The Azores

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what percentage of the R.A.F. personnel stationed in the Azores at the end of November, 1945, have now returned to the United Kingdom.

Eight per cent. have already returned, and a further 21 per cent. will leave as and when transport can be arranged.

Are men being kept on this station beyond the normal term of their tour of duty? Will the Minister make inquiries into the facilities for recreation on the station?

Yes, Sir, I have made inquiries. The men are kept beyond their tour of duty or release date only when transport does not arrive on the due day. That is the only delay.

Indian Stations

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if he is aware of the complaints of conditions at the R.A.F. station and transit camp, Mauripur, near Karachi, both from airmen stationed there and from passengers in transit; what steps have been taken to deal with the overcrowding at this station; to what extent the faults have been due to understaffing; and what improvements have been effected since October, 1945.

The Royal Air Force Station, Mauripur, is still in process of major reconstruction, which inevitably gives rise to inconvenience both for passengers and ground staff. I think this has been the main difficulty rather than understaffing. Since last October the transit camp for trooping has been completed, and all the other new accommodation should be ready by the beginning of April. The real point is not so much conditions at Mauripur as that the men are very naturally longing to get home.

Has my hon. Friend any information about the strike of some thousands of airmen which was reported yesterday to have taken place at this station?

My noble Friend has had a signal on that subject and he is considering the matter this afternoon very carefully indeed.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if the R.A.F. station at Vizagapatam has now been closed.

Three-quarters of this station has now been closed down, but it has been found necessary to maintain a staging post there for the time being. Further reductions will be made before the hot weather. For those airmen who have to remain there, there is now a cinema, a gymnasium, a concert hall, tennis court, games room and canteen.

Isle of Man Stations

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air (1) what was the cost to the Government of the Jurby, Isle of Man, R.A.F. station; and what future use is to be made of this station; (2) what was the cost to the Government of the Andreas, Isle of Man, R.A.F. station; and what future use is to be made of the station.

The Royal Air Force stations at Jurby and Andreas in the Isle of Man cost £583,000 and £745,000 respectively. The land belongs to the Air Ministry, and flying training will probably continue at both airfields, with Jurby also available for civil use.

Air Training Corps

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if he is in a position to make a statement with regard to the Government's proposals for the future of the A.T.C.

The main decision which is needed by the A.T.C. is that of the size of the permanent postwar R.A.F. and other Flying Services, because, as already announced, the A.T.C. will be the main source of recruits; and this decision in turn involves a decision on the size of the postwar Forces as a whole. It is obviously too early to make these basic decisions. But, in the meanwhile, plans for the continuance of the A.T.C. have been announced, financial assistance for flying, gliding, etc., has been provided, and there is no reason why the A.T.C. shall not go ahead in confidence that it will have its full part in building up the country's postwar Flying Services.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is considerable doubt in the matter among A.T.C. officers and personnel, and that it is having a very bad effect? Will he not see whether something cannot be done which will be helpful in the matter?

I have heard these expressions of doubt, but there certainly should not be any doubt that the A.T.C. is the main source of recruits for the R.A.F. and for other flying services. The only matter in doubt is the exact size of the Force, and that, as I say, depends upon decisions which cannot be taken yet.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that as a result of a dispute between the A.T.C. Committee in Croydon and Flight-Lieutenant Muir, of No. 1924 Squadron, Flight-Lieutenant Muir resigned from his command of the squadron, and that the majority of the members of the squadron are now contemplating resignation in sympathy with him; and whether, in view of the urgency of the matter and the unsatisfactory state in which it now rests, he will convene a court of inquiry to investigate and make a report on the circumstances in this case.

My Noble Friend has written to my hon. and gallant Friend about this matter.

Airfields, Merioneth

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air how many acres of land are occupied by his Department in the county of Merioneth; what aerodromes are comprised in such land; whether these aerodromes are considered suitable for modern aircraft; and what is the intention of his Department with regard to these aerodromes.

We hold 750 acres of land in Merioneth. The airfields on this land, at Llanbedr and Towyn, are both suitable for important types of modern aircraft. We expect to keep Llanbedr, sharing it with the Ministry of Civil Aviation. We shall shortly dispose of the land at Towyn, except for about 25 acres for an Army Training Centre.

Personal Cases

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air when he is likely to get an answer to his letter dated 20th November regarding 1501212 L.A.C. Bateson, R., about whom three formal letters of acknowledgment have been received from his Department.

The hon. Member will by now have received my letter of 17th January. I regret the misunderstanding which arose in making arrangements for this airman. He will now be moved to a hospital in Lincolnshire which is nearer his home.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air why 1072602 L.A.C. Tosh, whose release group is No. 24, most of which was demobilised early in December, is still retained in the Service many weeks thereafter; and when he is likely to be discharged.

I regret the delay in demobilising this airman, which was due to his documents not being received from overseas. He has been on leave since before Christmas, and was released yesterday.

While expressing my appreciation of the promptness of the steps taken by my hon. Friend when notice was given to him of this matter, I would ask whether there are many cases in which men have been kept in the Service for weeks merely because their documents had not been sent on with them when they came home from overseas?

I do not think there are many of these cases. The airman in this case was given leave. He did not suffer very badly.

Repatriated Officers (Accounts)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what is the average interval of time between the repatriation of an officer from India and the receipt in England of his accounts.

The average time is still about three months, but officers do not have to wait for their accounts to arrive here before they receive their pay in this country.

Is it not a fact that men are sometimes debited with amounts which they have no means of checking?

We have great difficulty in getting these accounts back from India promptly, but when they arrive, of course, the whole position is put straight.

Air Trooping Programme (Accidents)

The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:

21. MR. LEVY to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Air, what steps he is taking towards the reduction of accidents in the air trooping programme.

At the end of Questions

The accidents which have occurred to Royal Air Force aircraft engaged in the Air Trooping Programme have caused my Noble Friend the deepest concern. He accordingly directed the Air Staff to inquire, as a matter of urgency, into what measures could be taken to reduce these accidents. The report of the Air Staff has now been received. Its main recommendations were these:

The effect of this decision will be to cut down the Air Trooping Programme between this country and India from 10,000 to 5,000 a month in each direction together with the suspension of the U.K.-Italy programme. It is the inevitable price of these comprehensive safety measures. This will not result in a slowing up of the process of demobilisation and repatriation, since the necessary increase in shipping has just become available. The 5,000 men a month who would have come home by air will now come home by sea—but there may be some temporary dislocation while the men are being re-routed.

On the other hand, I must warn the House that the adoption of these measures does not ease the burden which we are placing on Transport Command. Fewer passengers can now be carried, but the actual amount of flying to be carried out by the Command will be as great as ever, since safety measures are extremely expensive in terms of effort. Therefore we cannot hope for any increase in demobilisation from Transport Command as a result.

Finally, and in justice to Transport Command, I would like to remind the House that it was in the trooping programme, and in the trooping programme alone, that the accident rate became high. On Transport Command's scheduled service its safety record is good.

The Air Trooping Programme was conceived as an operation of war, and planned on wartime standards. Now that increased shipping is becoming available, we must introduce peacetime standards of safety. We must not expect, of course, that the adoption of these standards will abolish accidents altogether. No air line in the world has ever been able to operate entirely without accidents. Nor, for that matter, can surface transport operate without accidents. But I believe that these safety measures will help Transport Command to reduce accidents on its trooping programme to the low level which it has achieved on its other services.

Would not Transport Command have a much better chance of keeping its air crew teams if the Government would make up their mind about offering regular employment to people in the Royal Air Force?

Permanent commissions are being offered to officers in the Royal Air Force, and other ranks are now being offered permanent employment. Since two days before Christmas that has been done.

May I take that further? Cannot we have a comprehensive statement showing what opportunities there are for employment in the Royal Air Force? We must know about the postwar organisation.

Is the Minister aware that in the Royal Air Force as a whole there is considerable dissatisfaction on meteorological services at the high level of the Air Ministry? The men have done magnificent work in maintaining the Met. aircraft and flying them, but the highups ought to be reconsidered.

Obviously I cannot endorse that statement, but I will certainly make very careful inquiries into the Met. situation.

Why did the hon. Gentleman give us only a vague reference to the important aspect of meteorological officers on routing, when we recognise that most of the accidents that have been caused appear to have been due to circumstances such as weather or other climatic conditions, due possibly to bad advice and the bad briefing from the meteorological officers? Could the hon. Gentleman give us some more information?

I do not think the House ought to be led to that conclusion by any means. It would be very unfair to Met. officers to do so. Obviously, Met. is one of the most important factors in the situation, and we are taking active steps to increase the Met. services along the routes.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman, in view of his very disturbing statement that it is difficult to keep crews together for more than a week, whether he could not make some further statement about the long-term service in the Air Force to obviate this very unhappy state of affairs?

We should welcome every opportunity to put our offers of longer term engagements under the new pay and conditions and allowances which have been announced for all the Armed Forces. We have, of course, put that to the Services in a new series of signals called "Pay" forms. That is a standing offer to other ranks. Permanent commissions are being given to officers although their pay and conditions will not be announced for a few weeks more. They should be announced within a month. Certainly we welcome every opportunity to get long-term engagements because that is the solution, and the only solution, to the question.

I do not want to press this matter unduly, but the hon. Gentleman will understand very clearly that until the conditions are made known to the officers they cannot be expected to re-engage.

Curiously enough, we have had many applications for permanent commissions: it is less difficult there than in the case of other ranks.

Can my hon. Friend give an assurance that the re-routing and consequent dislocation that he has spoken of will not delay the date of demobilisation in this country of men who were about to be brought home by air?

It may be that men who would have been brought by air will have to be taken by sea.

Can the Under Secretary tell the House whether the questions remitted to the Air Staff for advice included the difficulties and handicaps of the diplomatic mail service?

Not in this connection, because this was entirely on the trooping programme.

Do not these air accidents in Transport Command compare most favourably with accidents on the roads? Do we not want to preserve a sense of proportion?

I said in my statement that it would be most unfair to the Air to say that this was the only service which had accidents. Forms of surface transport also have their accidents, of which we have been unfortunately reminded quite recently.

Could the Minister indicate what is the proportion of accidents in Bomber Command to those in Transport Command, and is it because accidents are high in Bomber Command that it is not being used for the trooping programme?

No, Sir. The Bomber Command service to Italy was distinct from the main trooping route to India, and it was a difficult route to fly through the winter. It has been possible to make other arrangements for the men, and we thought it better to suspend this service for these months.

Civil Aviation

United States' Aeroplanes

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation how many orders he has placed for U.S. aeroplanes for operation on British civil airlines; how many machines these orders represent; what types have been ordered; and when are deliveries expected.

I ask the hon. and gallant Member to await a statement which I hope to make in Debate tomorrow.

Air Liner "Star Light" (Flight)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he will state the approximate cost of the recent flight to South America by the air liner "Star Light."

This information is not available. The hon. and gallant Member will, I am sure, appreciate the difficulty of preparing a satisfactory estimate of the cost of a proving flight of this nature.

Is the Minister aware that I am not asking for an estimate but for figures of the actual cost incurred, and whether it is borne by the State or by private enterprise?

The difficulty is the statistical one of calculating whether certain persons, carried for purposes of training, ought to be debited with the cost of this flight or not. This flight was undertaken on behalf of His Majesty's Government.

North Uist

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what the position is with regard to the full resumption of air services between the Isle of North Uist and the mainland.

Air services between the Isle of North Uist and the mainland will be resumed as soon as the Sollas aerodrome is restored to serviceable condition. The engineering report to which I referred in my reply of 14th November last, has been received and is under examination by my Department. I hope the aerodrome will be available for air services in the Summer.

Heathrow Aerodrome

asked the Parliament ary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation whether he intends to extend the Heathrow aerodrome over any part of the village of Harmondsworth.

I regret I am not yet in a position to add to the reply which I gave to my hon. friend the Member for Southall (Mr. Ayles) on 31st October last, a copy of which I am sending to the hon. and gallant Member.

Could the hon. Gentleman say whether the information, which has appeared in the Press since I put down this Question, and which purported to be from the hon. Gentleman's Department, is authentic?

I have no responsibility for what appears in the Press. A full statement will be made later in the Session.

Questions

Colonial Empire (Birth Rate)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state the birth rate figures for each Colony or other territory supervised by his Department and for the latest birth rate figure for Great Britain by way of comparison.

As the answer is necessarily long, I will circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the statement:

Territory.

Year.

Rate per 1,000 1,000

Aden (Colony)

1944

38·62

Bahamas

1944

38·8

Barbados

1944

29·01

Bermuda

1944

24·3

British Guiana

1943

33·5

British Honduras

1943

30·8

Cayman Islands

Grand Caymans

1944

21·1

Lesser Caymans

1944

22·8

Ceylon

1944

37·1

Cyprus

1944

33·74

Falkland Islands

1944

22·3

Fiji

1943

38·45

Gambia (Bathurst only)

1944

27·98

Gibraltar

1939

21·07 (1)

Gold Coast

1944

37·2

Hong Kong

1940

41·9

Jamaica

1943

31·51

Kenya

1944

Europeans

28

Indians

59 (2) (4)

Leeward Islands

1943

34·88

Territory.

Year.

Rate per 1,000 1,000

Malay States

Federated Malay States

Perak

1939

38·9

Selangor

1939

42·1

Negri Sembilan

1939

41·4

Pahang

1939

46·9

Unfederated Malay States

Johore

1940

43·32

Kedah

1940

41·1

Perlis

1940

37·11

Kelantan

1940

32·93

Brunei

1940

41·07

Trengganu

1940

36·58

Malta

1943

31·06

Mauritius

1943

33·1

Nigeria (Lagos Town; native population only)

1943

34·8

Northern Rhodesia

1944

Europeans

34·3

Asiatics

59·4 (4)

Nyasaland

1944

Europeans

21·40 (4)

Asiatics.

54·0

Palestine

1944

44·4

St. Helena

1944

31·05

Seychelles

1943

25·40

Sierra Leone

No figures available (4)

Somaliland

No figures available

Straits Settlements—

Singapore

1939

47·57

Penang

1939

39·55

Malacca

1939

44·28

Labuan

1939

41·41

Tanganyika Territory

No figures available (5)

Tonga

1944

36·18

Trinidad

1944

38·73

Turks Islands

1943

31·6

Caicos Islands

1943

44·5

Uganda

1944

25·78

Western Pacific—

Solomon Islands

1940

22·0 (3)

Gilbert Islands

1940

35·7

Ellice. Islands

No figures available.

Windward Islands—

St. Lucia

1943

34·3

St. Vincent

1944

35·5

Granada

1943

24·93

Dominica

1944

28·51

Zanzibar

1944

17·39 (2)

NOTES.

(1) Latest available figure. Most of the civilian population were evacuated from Gibraltar in 1940.

(2) Figures should be accepted with reserve as registration of births is unlikely to be complete.

(3) Relates only to part of the Protectorate; statistics are not available for all areas.

(4) No reliable figures for Africans available.

(5) Registration is compulsory only for Europeans, but war-time movements and fluctuation of numbers render actual figures useless as basis of comparison.

The latest figures for Great Britain are:

England and Wales

1944

17·5

Scotland

1944

18·5

These figures are quoted provisionally and may be subject to slight adjustment.

Cyprus (Newspapers for Forces)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent the Fascist papers: "Kathemerini," "Ellinikou Aema" and "Phos," are still distributed to the Cypriot forces; and whether the anti-Fascist papers: "Vema" and "Kypriaka Nes," are now distributed to these troops.

I have no information on the extent to which the newspapers mentioned, all of which are published outside Cyprus, circulate amongst Cypriot troops; none is distributed by the military authorities, nor is any one of them banned.

Is the Minister aware that the troops have these papers forced upon them whilst still in service in the Middle East? Such is my information.

To our knowledge they are not forced on the troops by the authorities either military or otherwise. Indeed some of these papers are published in Egypt.

Palestine (Newspapers, Suspension)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, why the newspapers "Davar" and "Hamashkif" were recently suspended by the Palestinian Government for publishing matter which had been passed for publication by the Palestinian Government's censorship.

These newspapers were suspended by the Palestine Government in consequence of the action of their editors in publishing matter calculated to increase the public tension. Publication was made in defiance of a written warning by the Chief Secretary, issued to all editors three days before the appearance of the matter in question, drawing their attention to the fact, that the existence of censorship in no way absolved them from their personal responsibility not to publish such matter.

Far East Internees

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether pay or compensation is to be granted to interned Government employees for the period of their internment by the Japanese; and, if so, whether this includes Asiatics.

Yes, Sir. Payment in respect of periods of internment is being made, without discrimination, to all Hong Kong and Malayan Government officials, including Asiatics, who held pensionable posts and also to a large number of temporary officials who were employed on a semi-permanent basis.

Is it a fact that this Regulation does not cover civil defence workers who only got three months' pay after capture?

There is another Question on the Order Paper which will give an answer on that point.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that a number of members of the Auxiliary Nursing Service who stayed behind to nurse the wounded in Malaya were captured by the enemy; and if he will give an assurance that these Auxiliaries will receive their pay during captivity as if they had been members of the Regular nursing services.

Members of the Civil Defence Services of Malaya, which include the Auxiliary Nursing Service, who were interned, have been granted ex gratia payments equivalent to three months' pay of their posts. The question of making further payments from public funds is receiving urgent consideration, and in this connection the point referred to in the last part of the hon and gallant Member's Question will certainly be borne in mind.

Would the hon. Gentleman say why these people are being treated differently from ordinary Government servants, considering that neither of these Services was allowed to go away before Singapore fell?

I have said that this matter is now under very urgent consideration and I hope very shortly we shall be able to say something better.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one of these nurses received a letter written as far back as 12th November last from the Malayan Government Office, in which they said they would not make any further advance until information was received from the Colonial Office? In view of the fact that these people are more or less dependent on charity will the matter be treated expeditiously?

Of course, if the particulars are forwarded to me I will have an inquiry made.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that a number of internees from the Far East, who applied to go direct to their new domicile in Australia and South Africa, were told that they must first go to England; that now they are here they are informed that no transport will be available for a year or more; and whether, in view of the pledge given to repatriate internees, they may be put into the same category for priority as returned troops.

I cannot trace any complaints on this subject having been made to my Ministry, apart from one case where a passage to Australia has already been offered. If the hon. and gallant Member will supply me with details of the cases to which he is referring, I shall be prepared to examine them and see what assistance is possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make arrangements for the payment of compensation to the employees of civilian firms who were interned in the Far East by the Japanese, in cases where such firms are unable to pay compensation.

It has not been considered feasible to pay compensation to returning internees from the Far East solely on the grounds of their internment. I would, however, refer the hon. Member to the replies given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies on the 31st October, 1945, 7th and 14th November, 1945, regarding the benefits available to British subjects returning to this country after internment in Malaya and Hongkong. These arrangements apply generally to all British subjects returning to this country after internment in the Far East.

Sarawak Discussions

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, before varying the Treaty relationship between Great Britain and Sarawak, local opinion in Sarawak will first be consulted, and an opportunity afforded to discuss the matter on the floor of this House.

The discussions which, as the Secretary of State for the Colonies has indicated in this House, are being conducted with His Highness the Rajah of Sarawak are still proceeding. I hope to be in a position to make a statement on the subject in the near future and I would ask the hon. Member to await that statement.

Can the Minister state why £1,500,000 of British taxpayers' money has been allocated to an independent State which is financially independent?

That is a completely different question, but I would ask my hon. Friend to await the statement which the Secretary of State will make in a very short time.

Will the hon. Gentleman say, in view of the great importance of the constitutional changes proposed, whether the statement will be made in a form which will be debatable in this House?

I think that is a question that obviously should be addressed to the Leader of the House for facilities for discussion.

Will the hon. Gentleman say if when his right hon. Friend is making the statement to the House, he will state who has been the representative of the Rajah in visits to Sarawak and through whom public opinion there has been sounded?

Malta

Executive Council

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will state the position with regard to the filling of the vacancies for nominated members of the Executive Council in Malta.

The views of the Governor on this matter have been received and are under consideration by my right hon. Friend. The delay in filling these vacancies in no way affects the legal competence of the Executive Council. In the meantime, the Governor proposes to consult informally the Leader of the Labour Party before important measures are introduced into the Council of Government.

Conditions

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any statement to make to the House about conditions in Malta; and what new steps he is taking to reconstruct the local economy.

My right hon. Friend is giving much attention to conditions in Malta, but I cannot attempt a general statement upon them in answer to a Question. I would, however, draw attention to the recently announced appointment of Sir Harold MacMichael as a Commissioner to visit Malta and to consider, in consultation with representative opinion, matters bearing on the restoration of responsible government. These inquiries must obviously involve certain aspects of the local economy.

I appreciate the difficulty of the Minister, but could he give any estimate of the amount of time it will be before he receives a reply from Sir Harold MacMichael?

The discussions are a little involved, but there is a desire on our part that these discussions should be expedited.

Will the report of Sir Harold MacMichael be a public or a private report to the hon. Gentleman?

I should imagine one must await the report and then consideration can be given to that question.

Questions

Spain (British Attitude)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any further statement to make in regard to the policy of His Majesty's Government on Spain.

The situation in Spain is under constant consideration by His Majesty's Government, who are in consultation with the United States and French Governments on the subject. His Majesty's Government have on all relevant occasions displayed their dislike of the present régime which abetted our enemies, and have forcibly enunciated their anxiety that the present régime should, by the activities of the Spanish people themselves, be superseded by a régime popularly supported. His Majesty's Government have in no way modified these views.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that at this moment Russia, China, Belgium, Holland, Norway and many other countries have not recognised the Franco régime in Spain, and would he not agree that where others have given us a lead we should not be slow to follow?

It all depends on what lead you want. I am not going to indulge in diversionary tactics of any kind. I announce policy to the House and propose to pursue it to the end.

Poland (Political Murders)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that Bolislaw Scibiorek, President of the Committee of the Wici, Polish Peasants Organisation, was murdered on 2nd November, 1945, that Jan Rytlewski, a prominent member of the Polish Christian Labour Party, was murdered at Juchda, on 2nd November, 1945, that Jozef Wrona, Peasant leader, was murdered at Zolkiewka on 8th December, 1945; and whether, in view of these repeated murders of political opponents which follow on several others, he has drawn the attention of the Polish Provisional Government to the continued violation of the terms under which it has been recognised.

On a point of Order. In view of the fact that Poland is a State which we, in fact, recognise and with which we exchange diplomatic representatives, is it in Order to describe it on the Order Paper as the "Polish Provisional Government"?

I am seriously concerned at the number of political murders that have been committed in various parts of Poland in recent weeks, in circumstances that in many cases appear to point to the complicity of the Polish Security Police. I regard it as imperative that the Polish Provisional Government should put an immediate stop to these crimes in order that free and unfettered elections may be held as soon as possible in accordance with the Crimea decisions.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is by no means a complete list, that all these victims are members of the Opposition parties and partisans of Monsieur Mikolajcz3?k, and will he urge that the General Election takes place before all potential leaders of the Opposition have been murdered?

I do not desire to add to what I have already said. The task of re-creating Europe and getting tranquillity is a very difficult one; we have to exercise patience. At the same time, I am looking forward to the end of these police States.

Will my right hon. Friend see to it that these Questions, and his answers to them, are brought to the personal knowledge of General Sir Frederick Morgan?

I do not think that arises on this Question and I do not propose to answer it.

I would point out that Questions with insinuations are really out of Order. We will proceed to the next one.

Austria

U.N.R.R.A. Help

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a programme of help from U.N.R.R.A. has now been arranged for Austria; and whether he will state the amount allocated for such purposes and give" any information he has concerning present conditions in Austria.

Yes, Sir. The Allied Council in Austria has formally requested U.N.R.R.A. to assume responsibility for the import of relief and rehabilitation supplies into Austria. I understand that U.N.R.R.A. is prepared to undertake this responsibility as from 1st March, but is also trying to get certain supplies to Austria before then. My hon. Friend will appreciated that a date some time ahead has to be fixed for a change-over of responsibility of this kind if it is to be achieved without dislocation. Discussion as to the amount to be allocated to Austria by U.N.R.R.A. is now going on in Washington. The resources of U.N.R.R.A. are limited and a number of countries are dependent upon them, and allocation involves a difficult task.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that recent reports from Austria state that, out of 70 deaths, 65 are due to starvation, and could he bring pressure to bear on U.N.R.R.A. to expedite their activities to prevent further deaths in that country?

I recognise that conditions in Austria are very bad. There are two things necessary in Austria—the speeding up of U.N.R.R.A. distribution and, in addition, I have been pressing for a considerable time for a withdrawal of the large numbers of troops in that area.

While I appreciate what the Foreign Secretary has been doing for the removal of troops, could he give us an assurance that from now, and during February, emergency measures will be taken to see that food arrives in Vienna and the desperate parts of Austria while U.N.R.R.A. is getting under way?

Refugees (Repatriation)

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether his attention has been called to the announcement of General Mark Clark, issued at his headquarters in Vienna, that permits can now be granted to Austrian refugees in the U.S.A. to return to Austria; and whether he will arrange that similar permits should be available for Austrian anti-Nazi refugees in this country to enable them to return to Austria.

I am aware of the statement to which the hon. Member refers. As stated in the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Newport (Mr. P. Freeman) on December 17th I have already made arrangements for a certain number of Austrian refugees to return to Austria. A scheme is being prepared to enable larger numbers to be repatriated, particularly those who will assist in the reconstruction of their country on democratic lines. Everything, however, depends on the availability of transport and an announcement will be made as soon as applications can be entertained.

Germany

Hitler (Will and Marriage Certificate)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has obtained corroborative evidence from independent experts concerning the authenticity of documents purporting to be Hitler's will and marriage certificate discovered by intelligence officers at Tegernsee, Germany, on 26th December, 1945.

No, Sir. These particular copies are in the hands of the American authorities. The will is, however, identical with a replica found in the British zone, the signature of which has been examined by a handwriting expert and pronounced to be authentic.

In view of certain elementary errors in the German language which are contained in the text, and which, therefore, throw doubt on the authenticity of the documents, would my right hon. Friend make available in the Library a photostatic copy of the documents so that Members may have an opportunity of seeing them?

Administration

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will make a statement reporting progress in the setting up of a central Allied administration for Germany.

The Allied Control Council in Berlin is the central Allied authority for the administration of Germany. It was established in July, 1945, and has been functioning ever since.

Jews

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster upon what dates he received recommendations from responsible voluntary and representative bodies and from British military authorities in Germany that there should be appointed a Jewish adviser to advise the Control Commission in matters relating to Jewish displaced persons in Germany, Jewish camp leaders or liaison officers in the various camps, and the establishment of separate Jewish camps; which of these recommendations have been adopted in the American zone, and how long ago; and when they will be adopted in the British zone.

Suggestions of the kind referred to in the Question have been made by various people at various times. It is the policy of His Majesty's Government to make no distinctions, on grounds of religion, between categories of displaced persons and, for this reason, we do not accommodate Jewish displaced persons in separate centres. The American authorities, however, take the opposite course. Jewish relief workers are employed in the U.N.R.R.A. teams responsible for the welfare of displaced persons. I understand that a Jewish adviser was appointed in the American zone last August. I have decided to appoint a Jewish adviser to assist the British authorities and I hope that the appointment will be completed and that he will take up his duties shortly.

Is my hon. Friend unaware that the displaced persons, the military authorities in Germany and every organisation voluntarily conducting relief work among them are unanimously in favour of these recommendations? Is he further aware that Major-General Templar promised me months ago that these recommendations would be honoured, and will he not consider whether the recommendations ought not now to be put into operation?

I am not aware of the information given in the first part of the question—that there is unanimous agreement amongst all the parties concerned on this policy—but the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to Germany is not continuity of policy of the previous regime and it is not our intention to encourage the idea that Jews are necessarily Stateless persons.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the answer, I give notice that I will take an early opportunity of debating it.

Questions

Netherlands East Indies

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state the Government's intentions in regard to Indonesia and the employment of our men there; what are our responsibilities and what interests are we serving; how long is it expected that we shall have to remain there; and whether the Dutch are yet in a position to assume full responsibility for their interests there.

The position has I think been made clear in previous statements. In particular I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement which I made on this subject on 23rd November and to the reply given by the Prime Minister yesterday to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg).

Is it not the case that Dutch conscripts cannot be sent abroad, and that the Dutch Government can get very few soldiers to volunteer for service in Indonesia?

In view of that reply, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, although we all want to get the British Forces away as quickly as possible, the arrival there at this particular moment of large Dutch Forces would be extremely inflammatory and might precipitate disaster?

May I ask my right hon. Friend to treat this question seriously? It is a very dangerous situation.

I certainly do, and I have made a statement to the House as to the reason why we are there. It was not I who introduced levity, but the hon. Member who put a previous Question to this one.

Ministry of Justice

asked the Prime Minister whether in order to co-ordinate the Departments at present dealing with legal subjects and to promote legal and judicial reform, His Majesty's Government will consider the desirability of setting up a ministry of justice.

War Service Honours (Women)

asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to recommend a further list of women, including, particularly, members of the nursing profession, to receive honours in recognition of the war services rendered by them, in supplementation of the recent honours list.

I propose to make recommendations in due course for approval for a list of honours which would be granted at The King's birthday. This, though it will not be on the scale of the recent list, will include some further honours for war services, where recognition has not so far been accorded. Women's services in many spheres, including nursing, were recognised in the New Year list, and various types of women's service, including nursing, will be considered again for the birthday. I do not propose, in the interval, to make recommendations for any supplementary list for civil non-operational awards for good service.

House of Lords Reform

asked the Prime Minister what the Government's policy is with regard to a second Chamber; whether any change is proposed in the immediate future in the membership or in the powers of the House of Lords and, in particular, in the hereditary quail fication for membership of that House.

asked the Prime Minister if he will now announce the steps the Government propose to take to reform the House of Lords so as to ensure that the will of the people, as expressed by their elected representatives to this House, remains inviolate.

Will the Prime Minister tell us whether he adheres to the policy enunciated by the Lord President of the Council at the Blackpool Conference?

Peace Celebrations

asked the Prime Minister how many days' holiday are likely to be declared for peace celebrations; and if he can now state the proposed dates so that preparations can be made.

This matter is still under consideration. I am not yet in a position to make any statement.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many hundreds of thousands or millions of tons of coal were lost to the country as a result of the two V-Days we have so far enjoyed, and can he assure the House that there shall be no more of these dislocations until after the next war?

In answer to the first part of the supplementary question I could not say without notice.

Mandated Territories (Trusteeship System)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement about the trusteeship provisions of the United Nations Charter.

I propose, with Mr. Speaker's permission, to make a statement at the end of Questions.

Later

Hon. Members will doubtless be aware that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs made a statement on this subject at the General Assembly of the United Nations on the 17th January. I welcome this opportunity of confirming that statement in this House. In ordinary circumstances a statement of policy on such an important subject would, of course, have been made to Parliament in the first place, but His. Majesty's Government felt that it was so desirable to take the initiative by assuring the United Nations of our earnest desire to see the international trusteeship system brought into operation at the earliest possible date that they felt they would be rightly interpreting the wishes of this House by making such a statement without waiting for Parliament to reassemble. I am circulating the full text of the statement with the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I have nothing further to say as regards the mandated territories in the Middle East except that His Highness the Emir Abdullah of Trans-Jordan has accepted an invitation to visit London in the near future to discuss matters connected with the establishment of Trans-Jordan's independence.

As regards Tanganyika, Togoland and the Cameroons, which are to be placed under the international trusteeship system, the House will like to know that His Majesty's Government, in consultation with the Governors concerned, has already drawn up draft terms of trusteeship based, generally speaking, on the mandates, but revised to bring them into conformity with the provisions of the United Nations Charter. Without prejudice to the ultimate interpretation of the phrase "States directly concerned" His Majesty's Government felt that there were certain States which, on any interpretation, must be regarded as directly concerned in the African Mandated Territories, namely, France in respect of Togo-land and the Cameroons, Belgium in respect of Tanganyika, and the Union of South Africa in respect of all three. The draft terms of trusteeship have accordingly been sent to the Governments of those States for their observations. Copies of the drafts have been sent, for information only at this stage, to the Governments of China, the Soviet Union, the United States of America, and (in respect of Tanganyika) France. I feel, therefore, that His Majesty's Government have, in this manner, taken all the practicable steps which it is within their power to take at present.

As soon as these drafts have been agreed upon by the States regarded as being in any event "directly concerned," and before they are submitted to the United Nations for approval, their terms will be communicated to Parliament and the local Legislative Councils.

Finally, there is one point which I should like to emphasise in regard to the status of the inhabitants of these territories. These territories have, for over 25 years, been under British administration on behalf of the League of Nations and will continue to be under British administration on behalf of the United Nations. They are not British Colonies and the inhabitants are not, therefore, as such British subjects. They are, however, and will continue to be, "British protected persons" of exactly the same status as the inhabitants of any British Protectorate not under mandate or trusteeship.

When these new treaties are ready, will they be submitted to the House in a form which will permit of discussion? Secondly, could I ask the Prime Minister whether he is sure that the good administration of these territories is not going to be subjected to that kind of lobbying of which the Foreign Secretary found reason to complain in another connection?

In regard to the first point, I will consult with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House as regards any question of Debate, and on the second, I think my right hon. Friend can be assured that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will ensure that we get our fullest rights in this matter, and there shall be no lobbying where he can prevent it.

Will the Prime Minister make it clear beyond a shadow of doubt that this country will remain the only and permanent administering authority, in view of the ambiguity of the phraseology of the Foreign Secretary in his speech to the General Assembly?

I do not agree with the hon. and gallant Member. I think there was no ambiguity whatever in my right hon. Friend's speech.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the Government have given a splendid lead in this matter and it is to be hoped other countries will follow that lead?

Following is the statement of the Foreign Secretary, 17th January, 1946, to U.N.O. :

Research Associations

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will state the number of privately operated research establishments to which the Government contribute; the total amount of their contributions to these establishments in 1937 and 1944, respectively; and the total physicist and engineer hours thereby provided to the Government.

The number of research associations in 1937 was 23, and 1944, 28. The Government grant paid to these associations by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research was £138,500 in 1937 and £298,000 in 1944. The number of staff employed by these associations, holding University degrees, was 353 in 1937 and 563 in 1944. The grant paid to the associations and the number of graduated staff employed by them are both increasing rapidly at present. These research associations are autonomous bodies, and the work which they are carrying out is done for the industries with which they are associated and not for the Government.

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman's scientific advisers are satisfied with the effectiveness of the work carried out by these associations as compared with that under direct Government control?

Broadly speaking, I think the answer would be "Yes, Sir." Of course, the work is different, but I think the House would generally agree that it is desirable that research should be encouraged in private industry and trade associations as well as by the Government direct. They are both making their contributions.

Food Supplies

Wheat Stocks, America

asked the Minister of Food what are the surplus stocks of wheat in Canada, the U.S.A. and Argentina as reported to the International Wheat Council in August, 1945, and January, 1946.

As the reply is rather long and contains a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will the hon. Lady inform the House whether the Wheat Agreement is in conformity with the Hot Springs Conference and will be continued by His Majesty's Government?

That is another question entirely. The Minister is returning from the United States today, and he has been discussing this matter, and possibly on his return he will make a statement.

May I ask whether unnecessary reserves of wheat are being stored across the Atlantic to the disadvantage of the starving people of Europe?

I would like to assure hon. Members that there is no such thing as a surplus store of wheat in the world today. Although the Question mentioned "surplus stocks," all are stores which countries have to draw on before the next crop is reached and there are no surplus stores.

Following is the statement:

According to statements made at the meeting of the International Wheat Council held in London on 31st August, 1945, the stocks of wheat which Canada, the U.S.A. and Argentina then expected to hold at the end of June, 1946, were:

Canada

135 million bushels

U.S.A

300 million bushels

Argentina

190 million bushels

These quantities include requirements to meet domestic consumption and to provide working stocks in the countries concerned until the new crops come on the market, and should not, accordingly, be regarded as being entirely surpluses available for export.

The latest estimates which have been put forward by the three countries regarding their stocks at end June, 1946, are:

Canada

115 million bushels

U.S.A.

175 million bushels

Argentina

105 million bushels

Fish

asked the Minister of Food whether he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to marketing and refrigeration of fish.

Whisky (Exports)

asked the Minister of Food what steps he is taking to increase the output of Scotch whisky having re- gard to the importance of this industry to the export trade.

Distillers have been licensed to use sufficient cereals of the 1945 crop to produce three-sevenths (43 per cent.) of the pre-war quantity of whisky. My right hon. Friend regrets that it is impossible to increase this figure at present in view of the world cereals position and the requirements of Europe. He is, however, fully aware of the importance of whisky exports and the position will be kept under continual review.

Will the hon. lady have in mind the hardship suffered by barley growers in the North-East who find that distillers have filled their quota from the South before their crop becomes ready?

Is the hon. Lady aware that this industry is the greatest dollar earning industry in the country and that it is grossly wasteful to keep the distillers working on a fifty-fifty capacity basis?

I would remind the hon. Gentleman that distillers have been treated fairly. They were licensed to use 130,000 tons of the home grown cereals crop in 1945 as compared with 100,000 tons from the 1944 crop. At this stage of reconversion food is more important than whisky.

Pork and Bacon

asked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the fact that in the years 1943 and 1944, 986,545 pigs were slaughtered by, and for, self-suppliers and that in the same period 92,300 tons of meal was allowed for the feeding of such pigs, he is prepared to revise this self-supplier scheme to ensure that more pork and bacon is available for the general consumer.

No, Sir. The feeding stuffs made available for self-suppliers' pigs is only a small part of the food consumed and in view of the extent to which domestic and other waste foods are used for this purpose I am satisfied that a revision of the scheme would not make more pork and bacon available for the general consumer.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this system is open to a great deal of abuse, particularly in regard to pig clubs?

I would remind the hon. Member that pig keepers are only allowed to slaughter two pigs a year, and if they keep the carcases of both the pigs they have to surrender 52 bacon coupons per pig and only a fifth of the food consumed by the pig comes from rationed commodities.

Is the hon. Lady aware that in the case of a pig club two pigs can be slaughtered per member per year?

Fresh Fruit Imports

asked the Minister of Food what South African fruits he proposes to import; and in what quantities.

62 and 63.

asked the Minister of Food (1) what steps he is taking to provide an increased supply of fresh fruit during the next few months;

(2) whether he is prepared to facilitate the import into the United Kingdom of South African fresh fruits.

I hope it will be possible during the next few months to increase, in some degree, the imports of fresh fruit as compared with the quantities we received last year, but the extent to which my right hon. Friend will be able to do so depends upon a number of circumstances over which I have no control. I am afraid that I am not able at present to say anything about quantities or sources.

Do not the people of this country deserve all the fruit that South Africa is able to send, and will the hon. Lady inform the House what are the limiting factors?

Certainly, the limiting factors are currency, shipping, transport, and, most important of all, harvests.

Greengrocer's Licence, Chelsfield

asked the Minister of Food why a licence was refused, to open a greengrocer's shop, to Mr. J. T. Newman, of Yew Tree Corner, Chelsfield, Kent, when there was a public demand for the shop to be opened, the nearest greengrocers being one and a half to three miles away.

Mr. Newman was granted a greengrocery licence on 8th October, 1945.

Is the hon. Lady aware that owing to the delay due to her Department this man could not get a licence for imported fruits, and has had to close his business, and cannot earn his living in the way he wishes?

The hon. Member asked me if a licence had been granted to open a greengrocer's shop. The licence was granted on 8th October.

Local Cheeses

asked the Minister of Food whether he will now permit the manufacture in this country of local cheeses.

The manufacture of a number of varieties of local cheeses in this country is already permitted but I regret that the amount of milk likely to be available for manufacturing purposes this season will not allow my right hon. Friend to extend the range.

Does the hon. Lady suggest that local cheeses of this kind consume any more milk than the mousetrap variety obtainable in the shops?

I am afraid that the hon. and gallant Member does not understand the position. The whole point is that we can only manufacture in this country cheeses which conform to a certain type—the Cheddar type.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I would ask hon. Members to ask their wives why. It is because we can only put a certain type on the ration. It would be unfair to limit a certain number of housewives to one type and a certain number to another; we should have trouble in every shop. Therefore cheeses manufactured conform to the Cheddar type. The cheeses manufactured in Lancashire, Cheshire, Wensleydale, etc., conform to that type. Others, I am afraid, do not.

Tea Rationing

asked the Minister of Food if he is now in a position to state the date when tea rationing is to be ended.

My right hon. Friend regrets that he is not able to forecast the end of tea rationing until it is clear that the future supplies of tea for this country are likely to be sufficient to meet all possible demands, but such is not the position at present.

Barley Exports

asked the Minister of Food how much barley is being exported from this country to the Continent; and for what purpose.

The total quantity of barley which it has so far been agreed to export from this country to the Continent is about 73,000 tons. Of this quantity 50,000 tons is for use as bread grain for German civilians in the British Zone and the balance is being shipped for N.A.A.F.I. for the manufacture of beer for British Forces.

Will the hon. Lady see whether more barley cannot be retained in this country for feeding stuffs for the livestock of this country, and save a great deal of transport being wasted carting barley about which could be used to produce food here?

I think the hon. Member will agree that we have a moral responsibility in our Zone. Furthermore, he would not deny our Forces beer.

Milk Distribution

asked the Minister of Food whether he will now alter the arrangements for the distribution of milk so as to restore to consumers the freedom of choice of a retailer.

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which was given to the hon. and gallant Member for Dumfries (Major N. Macpherson) on 23rd August. The consultations with the trade have taken place and the recommendations are being considered. My right hon. Friend has not yet come to a decision and I am at present not able to make any statement on the subject.

Is the hon. Lady aware that there is considerable public dissatisfaction at the continuance of this form of control?

I am aware of the fact that many housewives would like to change, but at this moment it is a little difficult because of manpower problems and transport.

Salt

asked the Minister of Food why there is a shortage of table and brick salt in the Erdington area of Birmingham; and what steps he is taking to remedy this deficiency.

Inquiries made by my officers indicate that, although there are not yet sufficient supplies of salt to meet full requirements, deliveries are being made in fair rotation to the retailers concerned. My right hon. Friend is hopeful of an improvement in the position in the near future, and I am assured that the Birmingham district is receiving its fair share of supplies.

How does it come about that whilst there was plenty of salt during the six years of war, when peace comes this shortage suddenly develops? Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the monopolistic people who control this commodity are not ensuring an artificial shortage?

I would remind my hon. and gallant Friend that we have not had a complaint from the Food Executive Officer in his constituency.

So far as the general position is concerned, I think it is a matter of shortage of labour.

Questions

Soap Ration

asked the Minister of Food whether in view of the hardship and danger to health, especially in industrial areas, caused by the lack of soap, he will soon be in a position to increase the ration.

I am aware that the public generally would like more soap, but I regret that owing to the shortage of oils and fats there is no prospect of any early increase in the soap ration.

While I appreciate what my hon. Friend says, may I ask if she will please remember that cleanliness conies next to Godliness?

Bills Presented

Investment (Control and Guarantees) Bill,

"to provide for the regulation of the borrowing and raising of money, the issue of securities, and the circulation of offers of securities for subscription, sale or exchange, to enable the Treasury to guarantee loans in certain circumstances, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; supported by Mr. Herbert Morrison, Sir Stafford Cripps and Mr. Glenvil Hall; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 64.]

Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill,

"to repeal the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Act, 1927, and to restore all enactments and rules of law thereby affected," presented by Mr. Isaacs; supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. Herbert Morrison, Mr. Bevin, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Ede, Mr. Westwood, Mr. Bevan, the Attorney-General, the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor-General; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 65.]

Business of the House

Proceedings on Government Business exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[ Mr. Whiteley. ]

Orders of the Day

Emergency Laws (Transitional Provisions) Bill

Order for Consideration, as amended (in the Standing Committee), read.

3.30 p.m.

I beg to move,

"That the Bill be re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendment in Clause 4, page 3, line 18, standing on the Notice Paper in my name."

This is an Amendment required by the Ministry of Pensions, and my right hon. Friend the Minister, if the House agrees to go into Committee, will move it.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill immediately considered in Committee.

[Major MILNER in the Chair]

CLAUSE 4.—(Extension of Fire Services (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1941.)

I beg to move, in page 3, line 18, at end, insert: status quo, to which I hope the Committee will agree as a reasonable arrangement. I understand that this proposal commends itself to the representatives of the men concerned.

There will be only one change from the present position, and that is dealt with in the second paragraph of the Amendment. Compensation under the Personal Injuries Scheme is, in effect, an alternative to compensation under the Workmen's Compensation Act and the procedure under these Acts will remain, but my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and I think it right that, from the time when the Personal Injuries Scheme comes to an end, the bar on proceedings at common law should be removed.

My hon. Friends on this side have no objection to this Amendment. We understand that its purpose is to protect the rights of members of the National Fire Service during what may be an interim period, and, on that understanding, and in view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, that the men's representatives are agreeable to this course, we will accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, with an Amendment; as amended, in the Standing Committee and on recommittal, considered.

CLAUSE 16.—(Ownership of Crown of requisitioned goods.)

I beg to move, in page 6, line 41, at end, insert:

"free from any mortgage, pledge, lien or other similar obligation."

The object of this Amendment is to correct an imperfection in the drafting of Clause 16. The Clause has the effect that, where the Crown has requisitioned goods and is liable to pay the full price for them, the ownership shall be deemed to have vested in the Crown as from the date of the requisition. With the proposed Amendment, the concluding words of the Clause will read:

"the ownership of the goods shall be deemed to have vested in the Crown as from the time of the requisition free from any mortgage, pledge, lien or other similar obligation."

Under Defence Regulation 53 (2), where property which has been requisitioned is subject to mortgage, the competent authority may use and dispose of it as if it were free from such mortgage so long as the requisitioning continues. When requisitioning comes to an end, the mortgagee might conceivably argue that he could not enforce his mortgage against the property. This, however, would be quite inappropriate and unfair, as the compensation will have been paid to the mortgagor, and the mortgagee will be free to pursue any claim against him. Section 14 of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, makes the compensation subject to the mortgage, as was pointed out by myself in the Committee. The Amendment merely gives effect to the intention behind Clause 16, which, I think, subject to a query on this point, was approved by the Committee.

It is desirable that there should be no dubiety left, with regard to the law on this matter, but it will help us if the Minister could tell us whether there are to remain any substantial powers of requisitioning property or chattels in future, under regulations authorised under this or any other Measure. We do not want to open up old stories, but this is a question of the price of the mortgagees' security and they are left with only a personal claim against the former owner of the goods. If we could be assured that there will not be any substantial requisitioning of removal property in future, under any of these regulations, then, in my view, we need not discuss the matter further, but, if there is to be substantial requisitioning I think we must pay some attention to the position of the mortgagee, who is deprived of his security, getting nothing in exchange beyond the right of personal action against the person who received the compensation from the Government. I hope we can get some information to show that this problem will not arise in future because, if it does, it is dubious whether this is the right solution.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman has used the word "substantial." I can give him an assurance on that point, but the Minister of Food and the Minister of Supply may still have to requisition some property of this kind under the Supplies and Services Act, although the use will be limited.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 22.—(Expenses.)

I beg to move, in page 8, line 25, at end, insert:

"(2) All sums received after the expiry of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts, 1939 to 1945, by way of charges imposed by an order made under the Defence (Services for Industry) Regulations, 1945, shall be paid into such public fund or account as the Treasury may determine."

Perhaps it would be convenient if I took this Amendment together with a later Amendment which proposes to insert in line 36 of the First Schedule the words:

"The Defence (Services for Industry) Regulations, 1945."

This Amendment is really consequential upon the other, and if it is convenient to you, Mr. Speaker and the House, I can deal better with the two matters together. The object of these Amendments is to add to those regulations which will be continued until December, 1947, a new Regulation which—

May I interrupt? I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way. I was going to suggest it might be convenient if we discussed the whole subject on the latter Amendment because the first Amendment on the Paper is introductory to the later one which the right hon. and learned Gentleman is proposing to move. Some of my hon. Friends take a great interest in this Amendment, and they would like to discuss it on the latter Amendment. I suggest to my right hon. and learned Friend that we might accept this first Amendment, leaving the way open for a discussion of the whole subject on the later one.

I am anxious to meet the view of the House and if it is convenient to hon. Members that the matter should be dealt with in the way suggested, I am quite willing to agree.

Amendment agreed to.

FIRST SCHEDULE.—(Defence Regulations continued for temporary period.)

3.45 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 9, line 19, column 3, insert: "No new by-laws shall be made."

The particular regulation to which this provision refers is Regulation 14. It gives to a variety of officers of State very ample powers to make by-laws in relation to places where members of His Majesty's Forces may be. The words in the regulation are of the widest possible kind. They are:

It is precisely because we are living in a time when training and supplies are contracting that we want to continue to make, in a limited number of cases, new by-laws. I imagine I carry every hon. Member of the House with me when I say we all desire to see some of the dumps by the roadsides in many sequestered and wooded parts of the country very considerably contracted in size and, if possible, the unsightliness which they now cause removed alto-together. If we are to contract the area which is subject to a by-law, we have to make a new by-law to do it. I have every confidence in my right hon. and Noble Friends at the head of the Service Ministries, but I am bound to say that some of their satellites in the country seem, on occasion, to take up a considerable amount of space. I notice as I move about that various Nissen huts, which formerly stored ammunition, are now empty. I desire to see the huts removed and the particular common or open country upon which they stand restored, and to be quite certain that it will not be used again. The only way to secure the latter point is to make a new by-law for a restricted area and thus prevent the space now occupied being continued in occupation

With regard to arrangements for testing ammunition and so on, the Supply Ministry, also, may similarly be able to use smaller areas than before. I ask for the power to make new by-laws on the assurances of my noble and right hon. Friends at the head of the Service Departments that they do not desire, unnecessarily, to make any new by-law, but it may be, on occasion, possible to clear a whole area if one can make a new by-law with regard to some other area to which the remainder of the ammunition, or whatever else it may be, can be removed. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment that we are thoroughly in agreement with the spirit in which he has acted, but I hope, in view of this explanation, he will not feel it necessary to press the Amendment.

I agree that a case has been made by the Home Secretary in his very accommodating speech that possibly, in some cases, in order to limit a wide area, we must have a new by-law to make it a smaller area. That will, undoubtedly, happen in a considerable number of cases, but there are two things which worry me at the moment. The right hon. Gentleman said the by-laws would never be made unnecessarily. Again and again in this House we have had that sort of assurance, and yet we still have lots of new by-laws of this kind. Would the right hon. Gentleman take his accommodating spirit a little further? This Amendment is probably too wide. It is obvious that in a very short time, there will be no need for any more of these places except in very exceptional cases—it would require more imagination than I have to think of any such cases. Perhaps the right hon-Gentleman would take this a little further and say he will preserve the power to have a new by-law but will limit it to the period of the next six months. That would be reasonable and practical. At the end of six months these things will have been cleared up If the right hon. Gentleman could meet us in that way it would go a long way towards making people realise that nothing will be done unnecessarily, and that the Government are winding up these things as quickly as possible, because in a limited time of that sort every official will know that he will have to make his by-laws now or else he will not have a chance, I think the right hon. Gentleman would probably in his heart of hearts like to accept that proposal and if he could free himself from official ties I am sure he would certainly accept it. I therefore urge him to become his natural self once again so that we can really cut away from having small new by-laws here and there all over the place.

I do not know whether I have understood the Home Secretary's meaning correctly. Do I take it that he has assured us of the following three things? First, that the Government Departments concerned will try to see whether the best plan is to contract the area of their dumps and make a new by-law for a part of the ground formerly occupied by them; but if that is not practicable and not the best way of doing it they will take another area, smaller than the old one, in substitution for the old one, and make a by-law for that; and thirdly, that they propose to use this regulation, which is very wide in its terms, only for the purposes of dumps and nothing else? If that is the view—if this regulation is to be used in future only for dumps and not for any other of the multi- farious purposes for which it could be used, and it will not be used to cover any new ground—then I think our point is substantially met. I hope those assurances can be given.

With the leave of the House, I think I can give the right hon. and learned Gentleman the first two assurances for which he asks, but, of course, I used the case of dumps as an illustration. The other purpose for which a new by-law might be required in the same kind of circumstance is that mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison), namely, training grounds where, obviously, we have fewer troops. In the same way it may be desirable to go through the same process as I have indicated with regard to dumps. I regret that I cannot respond to the very earnest appeal made by the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams). He made it in such terms that I would be only too delighted to accommodate him if it were at all possible. This power is limited to two years, and I think I have been quite as reasonable as can be expected in view of all the people with whom I have to negotiate on this matter.

As mover of the Amendment, I have received some comfort from what the Home Secretary has said. I am still a little dubious as to why it is necessary, if he wishes to restrict the operation of the by-laws, to make new by-laws to do it. I would have thought that the repeal of some of the old ones would have been sufficient to clear the air. I have the utmost confidence that the right hon. Gentleman means what he says, and, on the understanding that this matter will be pursued in the spirit which he has indicated, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in line 32, column 3, after "war," insert "or to be essential."

This Amendment corrects a drafting error in the alteration of Defence Regulation 16.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in line 34, at end, insert:

"In paragraph (2) for the words "the Commissioners of Works" there shall be substituted the words 'the Minister of Works.'"

This Amendment corrects a drafting error in Defence Regulation 16, substituting the Minister of Works for the Commissioners of Works.

Amendment agreed to.

4.0 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 9, line 43, column 3, at end, to insert:

To put it very briefly, the general line which my hon. Friends and I adopted with regard to this subject upstairs was this. It was necessary during the war to frame Regulation 22 in the peremptory and harsh form in which it stands in the book of regulations today, because then, when this regulation was conceived, the prospect before us was that of sudden mass evacuations under the threat of heavy aerial bombardment. With such a peril confronting our people, it was necessary to take the widest and most forcible powers to billet the victims of such an evacuation without any argument or delay. We were therefore complaining—and I think with justice—that it was wrong for the Government to go forward into peacetime with such billeting powers as they may think necessary, arming themselves at the same time with the whole of that sudden peremptory code which was really appropriate to the conditions I have described at the outbreak of war. On this question of billeting, we are very apt to see the hardships of one person only. We have great sympathy with people who may be moved about the country finding shortage of accommodation—which is, alas, so general today—but in sympathising with that type of person we should not lose sight of the hardships involved on the housewife of the private house, where billeting may be necessary.

One of the forms in which we suggested this code should be mitigated was that instead of making it peremptory, without time limit, the householder should be given a period of seven days before the notice became effective so that, in the first place, she might make such arrangements as may be necessary to accommodate her own household with the additional guests, and also take certain steps, by way of arguing with the authorities against the billeting notice. In the form in which this Amendment stands in my name on the Paper, I understand it carries with it certain disadvantages from the procedural point of view. If I adhered to the words appearing on the Order Paper I am told it would make it impossible for the householder who is perfectly willing to accept at once a person billeted on him, to receive payment for the first seven days, since the billeting notice forms part of the machinery for payment. If my Amendment were carried, in order to avoid that result, it would be necessary to recast the multiplicity of forms already printed and in stock for the securing of adequate payment for the host of the billeted person. I am not unconscious of the extreme un-desirability of a further outbreak of forms from the authorities. I am advised it would be acceptable to His Majesty's Government if the Amendment were moved by me in the manuscript form I have indicated, which would secure the same object, namely, the seven days' grace to the person who received the notice. At the same time it would prevent the machinery difficulties which the words as at first drafted, would involve.

The hon. Members who took part in the proceedings on this Bill in the Standing Committee we recall that we debated this matter at considerable length, and endeavoured to obtain the seven days' interval between the billeting request and the actual instalment of the billetee. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health on that occasion felt unable to yield and the matter was taken to a Division. I gather that the hon. Gentleman is in charge of the matter again today, and we on this side of the House are hoping that the period which has elapsed since the Committee stage has enabled him to reconsider the matter, and that he may now take a more favourable view of the opinions which we then put forward.

May I very briefly reinforce what my right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison) has said? We do feel very strongly that we have now moved out of the atmosphere of emergency in this billeting matter. Naturally, when severe blitzes took place, arrangements of a most hurried nature had to be made, and in those days there was no time for any interval between the billeting notice and the arrival of the billetee. When the matter was debated upstairs, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health told us it was still necessary to retain those powers during the present housing shortage, on the easement of which he appeared to take a somewhat gloomy view at that time. He said it would be necessary to retain the billeting powers for such persons as expectant mothers and young children, who often have to be very hurriedly placed in accommodation, and also Servicemen. Of course that is true, but the point of view was also expressed upstairs that the Government might require these powers for people of a rather different calibre. For instance, the removal of the staff of the new Ministry of National Insurance to Newcastle might well cause congestion in that area. A new Ministry which is liable to expand in the number of those engaged in it, might well provide just such a situation as the Government had in mind in asking that these powers should be continued.

We do feel it is not unreasonable in the state of affairs in which we now find ourselves that the Government, while retaining their billeting powers, should concede this seven days' interval. When all is said and done, the housewife upon whom these people are billeted, still has upon her the onus and necessity of catering for the billetees. She has to provide food, and as we all know, the food situation is considerably worse today than it was at the conclusion of hostilities from the point of view of the housewife in obtaining supplies.

She gets an additional allocation. Would not the hon. and gallant Gentleman agree, she would get an additional allocation of food?

I hope so in due course. That is all the more reason why there should be an interval during which these regular arrangements can be made, for such things as emergency rations. I do not think the hon. Member goes through the ordeal of obtaining them, queueing up and making the other necessary arrangements—nor do I. It is a view which should be borne in mind. We hope the Government, having reconsidered the matter, will consider accepting the form of words used by my right hon. Friend. It will greatly assist the housewife during the time the powers are in operation, which we hope will not be a long period in any case.

In the new form in which this Amendment is moved we are quite ready to accept it. There is still a difficulty with regard to the finding of immediate billets, which, of course, is much as it was in the early stages of billeting. There may, however, arise a necessity with regard to children who are still billeted, and whom it has not been possible to bring back to their normal homes. There may arise, because of sudden illness in the family on which they are billeted, a necessity to obtain alternative accommodation at quite short notice. None of us would desire, if it could be otherwise done, to billet unaccompanied children upon unwilling receivers. We are therefore quite ready to accept this proposal, although it might mean some little difficulties in finding accommodation. Perhaps I ought to explain that it is necessary to have it in this particular form of words, because even in the case of a voluntary acceptance of the child before the seven days' notice has expired, payment under paragraph 5 would foe impossible if the present form of the Amendment were not adopted.

May I say briefly that I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said? I am sure this action on the part of the Government will do something at least to create a more favourable state of affairs in regard to billeting.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 9, line 43, column 3, at end, insert:

The main objection to the acceptance of a similar Amendment in Committee, if I understood the Parliamentary Secretary aright, was that it would be necessary to go to a tribunal to determine whether the occupier's objection was reasonable or not before it would be possible to put a person into the billet. That objection could be stated so long as paragraph I stood in its old form, so long as there was no notice given of the intention to billet. But now that the Parliamentary Secretary has agreed that seven days' notice should be given—and we are grateful to him—ample time is given for the tribunal to decide whether or not the accommodation is reasonably required for the occupier's own purposes. If, therefore, time is allowed to determine the question, the only reason for refusing this Amendment must be that there are not enough spare rooms in the country to go round, and that it is necessary for the Ministry to have power to dispossess, or to squeeze together into a smaller number of rooms, those in the house in order to make room for others.

I cannot believe that the situation in any part of the country is quite as bad as that, and I therefore hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will be prepared to accept this Amendment. I do not see any administrative difficulty; the seven days' interval between the service of a notice and its operation has removed that. Therefore, the only possible difficulty would be a practical difficulty, and the only practical difficulty would surely be that there is not enough room, because nobody can say that justice does not require that an occupier should be entitled to keep in his own possession as much accommodation in his house as he reasonably requires. The billeting tribunal, with its local knowledge and sympathy, is composed of people who are admirably suited to determine the question, which is not a difficult one, of whether a particular room or rooms in a house are at the moment reasonably required or not by the occupier. It is an easy inquiry, an easy matter to determine, and if it is just that this should be done, if the inquiry is a simple one and there is time available to make it, I submit that the case for the Amendment is proved up to the hilt, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will follow the good example he has just set and accept it. It is really on the same lines as the one which he has just accepted.

4.15 p.m.

I am sorry, but it is not possible for me to accept this Amendment. As a matter of fact the acceptance of the previous Amendment has removed the greater part of any complaint there might be, because of the seven days that would be given for the consideration of any billeting notice. The regulation already gives the widest possible powers to the tribunal to deal with the matter, because paragraph 9 of the regulation says: "…and any person who is aggrieved by the service upon him of a billeting notice, or by the operation of a billeting notice served upon him, may … make a complaint to a tribunal constituted under this paragraph; and upon hearing the complaint the tribunal may cancel or vary the billeting notice as the tribunal thinks fit."

The tribunal thus has the widest possible powers in dealing with such cases, and we therefore do not feel that we could accept the Amendment as it is put down in its present form, because there must be some retention of compulsory billeting if billeting is to be made effective at all. Secondly, the operation of the Amendment might restrict the wide powers of the tribunal, and would hinder the operation of billeting itself.

I hope the Government will reconsider this matter. I listened with the utmost attention to what the hon. Gentleman said in reply to my right hon. and learned Friend, but it seems to me that he rejected this Amendment on two quite contrary and mutually destructive grounds. The first ground was that paragraph 9 of the regulation gives a very wide discretion to the tribunal to cancel or vary the billeting notice as the tribunal thinks fit. In other words his argument on that ground is that the tribunal has so much power that it is not necessary for any further enlargement to be given. The other argument, however, seems to me to be contrary to that. It was that it was necessary to retain in Ministerial hands some element of compulsion about billeting. Both those points cannot be true at the same time. If indeed the tribunal is monarch of all it surveys in the billeting field, the Ministry has not got that degree of compulsory billeting power which the hon. Gentleman evidently thinks necessary. I am not at all happy about the conditions under which the tribunal, as at present constituted by paragraph 9 of the regulation, is to act. It is given a direction, first of all in paragraph 2 of the regulation, which says:

The merit of this Amendment, which I again commend to the further consideration of the hon. Gentleman—who has been so reasonable with us—is that if it were adopted, it would be a direction to the tribunal to consider a matter which, in the present layout of the wartime regulation, might be obliterated by other considerations. In other words, there is here a special direction inserted in paragraph (2) instead of this general one. As it stands at the moment, paragraph (2) really directs or indicates to the tribunal that they should ignore a number of points; whereas we want the peace-time tribunal to be directed by a new paragraph (2) to consider specifically the reasonable requirements of the occupier, and we should like them to adjudicate upon them. I hope the hon. Gentleman has not said his last word upon the matter, because it is one to which we attach considerable importance.

Question pat. "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 120; Noes, 266.

Division No. 61.]

AYES.

[4.24 p.m.

Aitken, Hon. M.

Head, Brig. A. H.

Raikes, H. V.

Amory, D. Heathcoat

Headiam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

Ramsay, Maj. S.

Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Rayner, Brig. R.

Baldwin, A. E.

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

Barlow, Sir J.

Hope, Lord J.

Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

Hulbert, N. J.

Roberts, Sqn.-Ldr. Emrys (Merioneth)

Bennett, Sir P.

Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)

Birch, Lt.-Col. Nigel

Hutchison, Lt.-Col. J. R. (G'gow, C.)

Robinson, Wing-Comdr. Roland

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Ropner, Col. L.

Boothby, R.

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Ross, Sir R.

Bowen, R.

Langford-Holt, J.

Sanderson, Sir F.

Bower, N.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Scott, Lord W.

Boyd-Carpenter, Maj. J. A.

Lindsay, Lt.-Col. M. (Solihull)

Shephard, S. (Newark)

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

Linstead, H. N.

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Smithers, Sir W.

Bullock, Capt. M.

MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

Snadden, W. M.

Butcher, H. W.

McCallum, Maj. D.

Spence, Maj. H. R.

Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

Macdonald, Capt. Sir P. (I. of Wight)

Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

Carson, E.

Mackeson, Lt.-Col. H. R.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M

Challen, Flt.-Lieut. C.

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J.

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Studholme, H. G.

Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

Marsden, Capt. A.

Sutcliffe, H.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

Marshall, Comdr. D. (Bodmin)

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Crowder, Capt. J. F. E.

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

Cuthbert, W. N.

Medlicott, Brig. F.

Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

Davidson, Viscountess

Mellor, Sir J.

Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F.

Digby, Maj. S. W.

Molson, A. H. E.

Wadsworth, G

Dodds-Parker, Col. A. D.

Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.

Walker-Smith, Lt.-Col. D.

Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.

Morris-Jones, Sir H.

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Drayson, Capt. G. B.

Morrison, Rt. Hn. W. S. (Cirencester)

Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

Drewe, C.

Neill, W. F. (Belfast, N.)

Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)

Eccles, D. M.

Neven-Spence, Major Sir B.

Wheatley, M. J.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Nield, B. (Chester)

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

White, Maj. J. B. (Canterbury)

Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)

Osborne, C.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Gammans, Capt. L. D.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Gridley, Sir A.

Pickthorn, K.

York, C.

Grimston, R. V.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

Hare, Lieut.-Col. Hn. J. H. (W'dbr'ge)

Prescott, W. R. S.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.

Commander Agnew and Major Mott-Radclyffe

NOES.

Adams, Capt. Richard (Balham)

Champion, A. J.

Foot, M. M.

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

Chater, D.

Forman, J. C.

Adamson, Mrs. J. L.

Chetwynd, Capt. G. R.

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Clitherow, Dr. R.

Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Cluse, W. S.

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Alpass, J. H.

Cobb, F. A.

Gaitskell, H. T. N.

Attewell, H. C.

Cocks, F. S.

Gallacher, W.

Austin, H. L.

Coldrick, W.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Ayles, W. H.

Collick, P.

Gilzean, A.

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.

Collindridge, F.

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Bacon, Miss A.

Collins, V. J.

Gooch, E. G.

Baird, Capt. J.

Colman, Miss G. M.

Gordon-Walker, P. C.

Balfour, A.

Comyns, Dr. L.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

Grenfell, D. R

Barstow, P. G.

Corlett, Dr. J.

Grey, C. F.

Barton, C.

Cove, W. G.

Grierson, E.

Battley, J. R.

Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Bechervaise, A. E.

Daggar, G.

Griffiths, Capt. W. D. (Moss Side)

Belcher, J. W.

Daines, P.

Guest, Dr. L. Haden

Bellenger, F. J.

Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

Gunter, Capt. R. J.

Benson, G.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Guy, W. H.

Beswick, Flt.-Lieut. F.

Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

Hale, Leslie

Bing, Capt. G. H. C.

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.)

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

Binns, J.

Deer, G.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Blenkinsop, Capt. A.

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Hardy, E. A.

Blyton, W. R.

Delargy, Captain H. J.

Haworth, J.

Boardman, H.

Diamond, J.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Bowden, Flg. -Offr. H. W.

Dobbie, W.

Herbison, Miss M.

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Dodds, N. N.

Hobson, C. R.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'p'l, Exch'ge)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Holman, P.

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Dumpleton, C. W.

House, G.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Dye, S.

Hoy, J.

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Edelman, M.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Burke, W. A.

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

Irving, W. J.

Byers, Lt.-Col. F.

Ewart, R.

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Chamberlain, R. A.

Fairhurst, F.

Janner, B.

Jeger, Capt. G. (Winchester)

Nally, W.

Stubbs, A. E.

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S. E.)

Naylor, T. E.

Summerskill, Dr. Edith

John, W.

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Swingler, Capt. S.

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Symonds, Maj. A. L.

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Keenan, W.

Oldfield, W. H.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Kendall, W. D.

Oliver, G. H.

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Kenyon, C.

Paget, R. T.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Key, C. W.

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

King, E. M.

Pargiter, G. A.

Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)

Kinley, J.

Parkin, Flt.-Lieut. B. T.

Thorneycroft, H.

Lang, G.

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Thurtle, E.

Lavers, S.

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Tiffany, S

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Peart, Capt. T. F.

Timmins, J.

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Perrins, W.

Titterington, M. F

Leslie, J. R.

Piratin, P.

Tolley, L.

Levy, B. W.

Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)

Usborne, Henry

Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

Popplewell, E.

Viant, S. P.

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

Porter, G (Leeds)

Walkden, E.

Little, Dr. J.

Pritt, D N.

Walker, G. H.

Logan, D. G.

Proctor, W. T

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Longden, F.

Pryde, D. J.

Warbey, W. N.

Lyne, A. W.

Pursey, Cmdr. H.

Watkins, T. E.

McAdam, W.

Ranger, J.

Watson, W. M.

McEntee, V. La T.

Rankin, J.

Webb, M. (Bradford, G.)

McGhee, H. G

Rees-Williams, Lt.-Col. D. R.

Weitzman, D.

Mack, J. D.

Reeves, J.

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Wells, Maj. W. T. (Walsall)

McKinlay, A. S.

Rhodes, H.

White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)

Maclean, N. (Govan)

Robens, A.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

McLeavy, F.

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

Whileley, Rt. Hon. W.

MacMillan, M. K.

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.

Macpherson, T. (Romford)

Rogers, G. H. R.

Wilkes, Maj. L.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Royle, C.

Wilkins, W. A

Mallalieu, J. P. W.

Scott-Elliot, W.

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Mann, Mrs. J.

Sharp, Lt.-Col. G. M.

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

Shurmer, P.

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Manning, Mrs. L (Epping)

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Mathers, G.

Simmons, C. J.

Williamson, T.

Medland, H. M.

Smith, Capt. C. (Colchester)

Willis, E.

Messer, F.

Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Middleton, Mrs. L.

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

Wilson, J. H.

Mikardo, Ian

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Wise, Major F. J

Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.

Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

Woods, G. S.

Monslow, W.

Sparks, J. A.

Yates, V. F.

Moody, A. S.

Stamford, W.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Morfey, R-

Steele, T.

Zilliacus, K.

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Stephen, C.

Mort, D. L.

Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham E.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Moyle, A.

Strauss, G. R

Captain Snow and Mr. Pearson

Murray, J. D

Stross, Dr. B.

I beg to move, in page 9, line 43, column 3, at end, insert: tribunal has to get along as best it can, in what may be very difficult circumstances. It now seems to us that the time has come when we can introduce more uniformity by giving the tribunal a little more help, and giving those who feel aggrieved, a little more indication of the rights which Parliament intend them to have. We suggest that the proper criterion for the tribunal to adopt on hearing a complaint, is to consider whether the operation of the billeting notice would inflict hardship on the person who makes the complaint. If the tribunal is satisfied that to billet people on a certain householder would inflict hardship on the householder, then the tribunal should cancel the billeting notice, because there must be other people in the district who could be found to take the billetee without hardship. We have not reached a stage when hardship must be imposed on someone. The Government are not going to say that. They are surely going to agree that billeting as now contemplated, can, if properly adjusted, be carried out without hardship on the householder.

Another even more important aspect concerns the case where the billeting notice requires that food or attendance shall be given. It is, in our submission, very important that the tribunal should be quite clear that it is not to require a householder to give food or attendance unless that householder can be so required without being put to hardship. Let me inform the House of the type of case, of which the Parliamentary Secretary told us upstairs, in which a billeting notice with food and attendance would be required. He said:

It is necessary, in our submission, that the hands of the tribunal should be strengthened, that they should have guidance, and that the complainant should know of the case. He has to make his case and satisfy the tribunal that he really cannot undertake this very difficult task. I do hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will agree that now that things are settling down, it is possible to have a rule running through these things for the guidance of the tribunal, and that he will not agree that it is, in any case, necessary now that we should contemplate imposing hardship on householders under this system. Unless we can avoid hardship, this billeting system will break down, and a very few cases get known very widely. It is therefore essential to ensure that, as far as possible, not a single case of hardship is liable to occur, otherwise even a few cases of hardship will wreck the system. That is the last thing we on this side of the House want. It is in order that this system shall work smoothly that we submit this Amendment.

In the Amendment which we accepted a little while ago we gave seven days in which an aggrieved person could make an application to the tribunal before any billeting notice became operative. Surely that was an extension which gave full opportunity for the consideration of the case of any individual who would be able to say that for any particular reason he or she felt unable to accept a particular billetee. We feel that with the wide powers that are given to the tribunal, and with that seven days of time allowed for making the application, adequate provision is made to meet the difficulties of various people. We cannot therefore accept this Amendment. On reading it for the first time it did make me feel that there was really some subtle attempt to put an end to billeting altogether, because I can imagine practically no case in which it would be possible to say that compulsory billeting did not involve some hardship so far as a household was concerned. Yet, this Amendment says that if there is this element of hardship at all, then the tribunal shall cancel or vary the billeting notice, and it seems to me that acceptance of an Amendment of this kind would rob us of all powers of billeting, and since powers of billeting, alas, are still necessary for quite a number of groups of people, we find it impossible to accept this Amendment.

4.45 P.m.

Hon. Members on this side of the House are somewhat disappointed at the unyielding character of the Minister's reply. The hon. Gentleman in his earlier remarks said he thought the concession made earlier, for which we were very grateful indeed, the concession made on the seven-day notice, put an end to this matter. May I suggest to the Government with all deference, that it is raising a different issue? It is quite true that we have now got a seven-day interlude between the billeting notice and the arrival of the billetee, but what my right hon. and learned Friend is endeavouring to do under this Amendment, in which we support him, is to give some guidance to the tribunal as to the actions which they should take in the meantime, when the complaint is raised. I see upon the Front Bench at the moment the right hon. and learned Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, and I well remember when he was in less fortunate political circumstances when he was a Member of a small but none the less virile Opposition, how often he would rise in his place when Government Bills were going through the Committee stage, and point out that however honourable intentions of Ministers might be, it was important to have in Acts, words which made perfectly clear what the intentions of this House were. One cannot expect the right hon. and learned Gentleman in his present position to support this Amendment, but I quote him as no mean legal authority on the matter.

I do feel that we are making a reasonable point in asking that these tribunals shall have the necessary guidance. This is a transitional Bill, a Bill which deals with machinery for shading down from the severity of wartime regulations, to the use of those regulations in the transitional period of peace, and we do feel that it should be stressed to these tribunals, that they need no longer use the harsh methods necessary in times of war in these matters, and that they should give particular attention to hardship, and grievances upon the billetee.

So much for the first part of the Minister's reply. Disappointing as the first half of the reply was I thought the second far more so. What did the hon. Gentleman say? Was the Parliamentary Secretary allowed to go out of this House to his supporters in the country and say that the Socialist administration of billeting is going to cause hardship to those served with a billeting notice? The hon. Gentleman said in his reply that he detected in this Amendment some subtle attempt on the part of the Opposition to abolish billeting altogether. No such thought entered our minds—we are far too naive for that. I was indeed astonished to hear the hon. Gentleman say "Oh, well, under this Socialist regime hardship will exist in individual cases, and so there is nothing to be said for suggestions to the tribunal that it might exercise a more lenient view." No words from this side of the House could be greater condemnation than those uttered by the Minister. Will he take an opportunity of asking the Leader of the House to put a different complexion on them? If he does, he will at once see the reasonableness of this Amendment, and we shall be able to go forward.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman stimulates me to say something at this stage, though I had not intended to speak. In normal circumstances if there is surplus accommodation in any house, and if a person wants to get rid of that surplus accommodation he makes arrangements to let it. It is quite obvious that where there is billeting there must be, in the view of some person, hardship of some kind. If in these circumstances, a direction is given to the tribunal, that if in their view there is any hardship, they shall take such action as is determined by this regulation, quite obviously, as the Parliamentary Secretary has said, the whole effect of any arrangement for forcible billeting falls to the ground.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in page 10, line 12, column 3, insert:

"In paragraph (6) for the words 'the Commissioners of Works there shall be substituted the words 'the Minister of Works.'"

This is precisely the same class of Amendment which it has been necessary to move in earlier regulations by reason of the change of name.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 11, leave out lines 27 to 29.

I am glad to see the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland here, because he attended to this matter in Committee upstairs. The area which it affects is restricted in size, but the point of principle which it involves is of considerable importance, and that is my justification for bringing it before the House at this stage. It was the law in Scotland, until it was amended by this regulation, that it was not legal to keep a person in a police cell for more than 30 days. Our wise legislators thought that 30 days in a cell was quite enough for anyone, no matter what was the heinous offence which he might have committed. The idea was that, if a man was sentenced to a longer term of imprisonment, an arrangement should be made by the authorities for his removal to a more suitable place, where he could serve his sentence under proper conditions.

The law is, of course, general, but in the course of the proceedings on this Bill it became apparent that the only part of the United Kingdom which was affected by this regulation was the remote but important islands of Orkney and Shetland. This regulation was introduced in wartime because of the circumstances peculiar to that part of the United Kingdom. In other words, we had two phenomena occurring simultaneously as a result of the war. First there was a great increase in population and, second, there were great restrictions in the means of conveyance between the islands and the mainland of Scotland. These two events made it impossible for the old law in every case to be properly carried out. The increase of population, most of it alien to the islands and of a less law-abiding character than the natives of Orkney and Shetland, resulted in a temporary increase in crime, for which the islands themselves were not normally fitted. The restrictions in transportation forbade the transport of persons sentenced to more than 30 days.

But all that is changed now. Both these circumstances, which justified the regulation at the time it was made, have disappeared, and my plea is that we should revert in peacetime to what was the peacetime law. The population has again diminished to normal proportions, and is almost entirely composed of the indigenous population of Orkney and Shetland, who seldom found themselves in any trouble with the police, or in any kind of cell. At the same time, communications with the mainland have improved. There is, from Shetland, a daily air service, and there is a steamer which runs from Lerwick to Aberdeen twice a week. Therefore, neither on the ground of excessive population, nor of paucity of communications, can the continuance of this regulation be justified. In whose interests was the original law, which this regulation amends, conceived? It was conceived in the interests of prisoners because of the old view that although a man might be guilty of an offence, he had his rights before the law, and the terms of his incarceration should be such as to be free from any kind of barbarity or ill-usage.

It is for that reason that it is extremely important to reassert that principle at the earliest moment, and revert to the wholesome practice which was the common law in Scotland until it was interfered with by this regulation. The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland was good enough to make a considered reply in Committee, but with the best intention of trying to meet him in this matter I was quite unconvinced by the propositions he put forward for retaining this tyrranical power to keep a person in a police cell for more than 30 days. There was no limit on the Secretary of State. The first argument of the Under-Secretary was that the number of people affected was very small. Indeed, he told us that of the people of Lerwick only 11 had been incarcerated in a police cell for more than 30 days. That is a highly creditable performance for Lerwick, but if the number is few, the trouble of the authorities in transporting them to the mainland would also be small. When the hon. Gentleman said that there would be inconvenience to the warders who would have to come out from Aberdeen to assist in transport and the escort of persons, I must say that I thought those two arguments did not march together. If only a small number of persons is affected, the inconvenience to the administration is proportionately small. We are too apt to frame our laws for the convenience of warders and officials, neglecting the rights of the prisoner who has to be stood up for, and who has to be protected in these matters. I will not weary the House with further argu- ment on this theme, except to say that in our present circumstances there is no justification whatever for not returning to the wholesome Scottish law which existed before abnormal circumstances broke upon Orkney and Shetland. The normal law should be retained.

As my right hon. Friend has pointed out, this regulation may not affect very many people, but it does affect those who have very strong views and rights. I want to stress that the regulation is wholly unnecessary, and that there is no shadow of justification for continuing it at the present time. It is true that during the war it was justifiable because our transport facilities were very seriously restricted, almost to vanishing point. It was very hard for any resident of the islands to get away from the islands or to get into them, because the transport was taken up by officers and Government officials. That does not apply now. Every day several aeroplanes go both to Orkney and Shetland. They go in all weather and maintain a higher degree of regularity of service even than the steamers. Both from Shetland and Orkney there are two steamers a week to Aberdeen, and there is one steamer daily across the Pentland Firth. There is not the slightest difficulty in transporting to Aberdeen anybody who receives a sentence of the kind to which reference has been made. If it is the case that there are no warders available in Inverness or Aberdeen, that could quite reasonably be dealt with from either Shetland or Orkney. I strongly support the Amendment, which I hope the Government will accept.

5.0 p.m.

I think it is well that the House should get a truer picture of the real position. The right hon. Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison) painted a picture which rather showed the Secretary of State for Scotland to be a tyrant who, during the war years, when there was an influx of population to the Islands in the North, with a consequent increase of crime in the North, decided to make a prison of police cells there, and who now proposes to retain the police cells for that purpose in the future. Surely, the position is that before the war, and before there was that influx of population, there was a prison in Lerwick, but that the Secretary of State for Scotland decided to discontinue the prison. In 1942, it was necessary to introduce this regulation, and in framing the regulation regard was had to the difficulties confronting the authorities in the North. The Secretary of State took the utmost trouble to see that the cells, which had previously been a prison, were again properly furnished for the job. They have a proper exercise yard, and so on. Only 11 prisoners have been housed in those cells for more than 30 days, and the only difference in their circumstances as a result of their not going to Peterhead prison was that they were supervised and looked after by policemen instead of by prison warders.

In the Committee I said I would be very happy to limit this regulation to Shetland, but on reflection I think it would be a bad thing to start altering the regulation in such a way as to limit it to Shetland, particularly in view of the further assurance which I gave that the Secretary of State would withdraw the regulation as soon as he possibly could. As I was pressed somewhat during the Committee stage to withdraw the regulation, and in view of the arguments that have been made this afternoon, I think it would be fitting if I gave way and accepted the Amendment. It will not cause us any great inconvenience. I thought it fitting, however, to make these few remarks to show that the regulation is not a very harsh one and that it does not bear so heavily on the prisoners in Lerwick cells as was indicated in the speeches to which we have listened.

I would like to thank the Under-Secretary of State for his friendly approach to this important matter.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 13, line 10, column 3, insert:

"In paragraph (1) for the words 'in the interests of the defence of the realm or the efficient prosecuton of the war' there shall be substituted the words 'in the public interest.'"

This is a drafting Amendment to Regulation 45A. By reason of the termination of the war, it is now necessary to substitute the words "in the public interest", because the old words are obviously out-of-date.

I am afraid this Amendment is a little more than a drafting Amendment. I ask the Under-Secretary of State to look at the regulation as it will read when amended, and consider whether it cannot be limited in some way. The regulation will read:

"The competent authority, if it appears to that authority to be necessary or expedient in the public interest, may make provision by order—(a) for securing that, subject to any exemptions for which provision may be made by the order, any such class of persons as may be specified in the order shall not be employed on board British ships."

I can understand that in war time there is great necessity for excluding from British ships certain classes of persons in the interest of the defence of the realm and the efficient prosecution of the war, but I have much greater difficulty in understanding why it is now necessary to take power to exclude additional people, not already excluded, in the public interest. I quite see that it may be necessary to continue certain existing orders for a time. If the Under-Secretary of State will agree to give an undertaking that no new orders will be made extending the ambit of the present words under paragraph (1 a ), that will meet my point. To insert the words "in the public interest" in place of the words "in the interests of the defence of the realm or the efficient prosecution of the war" very much widens the regulation, so that it could be used in the new form to exclude from British ships people who were not excluded even in war time. I hope the hon. Gentleman will tell us that there is no intention of excluding any other class of persons than those who may be excluded at this moment.

If we are not to have a reply from the Front Bench on this matter, may I reinforce the arguments that have been made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid)? It is only a few minutes since the Opposition were accused by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health of exercising subtlety in these proceedings. Whatever subtlety there may have been on this side pales into insignificance when compared with the remarks that have just been made by the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department. The hon. Gentleman said this is merely a drafting Amendment. He put it before us in agreeable language and then resumed his seat. We now find that it is very far from being a drafting Amendment. The attack that was made upon housewives a few minutes ago has now been followed by an offensive against the Merchant Navy. This is an astonishing state of affairs. There is sunshine and shadow—the acceptance by the Government of the last Amendment is now followed by this ferocious onslaught by the Government upon the Merchant Navy. I do not think the Government quite realise the extent of the effect of this regulation. This shows the disadvantage of shovelling into one Bill a whole number of wartime Regulations without adequate consideration.

As I said upstairs on more than one occasion, this is a transitional change from war to peacetime conditions and if we just take an Army Regulation and dump it into this Bill, altering the words "prosecution of the war" to "in the public interest," I think we are apt to do so without realising its significance. I do appeal to the Government, without wishing to delay the proceedings, to let the House have another word on this. I am quite sure that this is a new point and, if it is not, perhaps we may have the Government's reason for this action. If it is not a new point I suggest, in all good temper, that the House has been misled by the Under-Secretary. He described this as a mere drafting Amendment. I hope something more may be said.

I think the hon. and gallant Member is quite wrong when he suggests that I endeavoured to mislead the House. It is in fact a drafting Amendment. It substitutes for the words "prosecution of the war" the question of public interest. I do not know whether this matter was discussed; I cannot recall that without looking at the Committee report, but paragraph ( a )of this regulation has already been revoked, which considerably cuts down the operation of the regulation. Rather, it has been amended so that the regulation would now apply to the issue of identity cards to seamen and is limited to that. I think that answers the point which my right hon. and learned Friend mentioned, and with that explanation, I hope the House will agree to the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 13, line 48, column 3, after "activities" insert "and."

With your approval, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I suggest that this Amendment and the next Government Amendment—in page 13, line 50, column 3, leave out from beginning to end of line 8, column 3, on page 14, and insert:

I have no objection to this at all, nor have my hon. Friends. We are glad to see that the point made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bewdley (Major Conant) has been taken up. I find myself in some difficulty in trying to read these two Amendments together, but if the right hon. Gentleman could show us how the third column will read with this Amendment it would clarify the position. It is rather difficult to fit them together.

The amended column 3 would read:

"In sub-paragraph ( a ) of paragraph 4, after the word 'refreshment' there shall be inserted the words 'or for cultural or political activities' and in sub-paragraph ( b ) of the said paragraph the words from ' provided that' to the end of the said paragraph shall be omitted."

That is how the column will read when amended, and it is the omission of the proviso which makes it necessary to draft in that particular form.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 13, line 50, column 3, leave out from beginning to end of line 8, column 3, on page 14, and insert:

"and the words from 'Provided that' to the end of the said paragraph shall be omitted."—[ Mr. Oliver. ]

5.15 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 14, leave out lines 41 to 43.

Regulation 6ON is one which exempts the Post Office from the duty of compiling and presenting what is roughly called the commercial account. The Post Office finances compel them to keep two sets of accounts, one for the purposes of the Comptroller-General for the scrutiny of Parliament, and another, a commercial account, which is costed—I put it roughly—very much in the way a private business is costed. They charge themselves the usual elements of cost which are attributable to the ordinary conduct of private business, and the purpose of this requirement was to see how the Post Office, as a commercial concern, was progressing. During the war, it was deemed wise to exempt the Post Office from the labour necessary to keep this account, and, indeed, in war time the Post Office had, as we all know, an immense burden of work cast upon it maintaining communications not only for the civilian population but for an immensely increased Armed Force. I really move this Amendment for the purpose of ascertaining, if I can, when it is proposed to resume the keeping of this account—when it is proposed, in other words, to abolish this regulation.

I should concede myself that it is very reasonable to say that the time has not yet come when the Post Office can resume full expenditure of manpower on this accounting but, at the same time, I would not like the Government to neglect the fact that this sort of account of a State-run monopoly like the Post Office, charged according to the practice of commercial business, will be very illuminating to both sides in the controversy which is shortly about to spring upon us over the various controls of industry and ownership of industry. We are none of us the worse for having as many facts as we can have, prepared by independent sources, and if I could receive some sort of indication that it is the intention at least to resume this accounting practice at an early date, I might not feel a strong urgency to proceed with this Amendment.

The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Burke): I appreciate the arguments put forward by the right hon. and learned Member. The circumstances which he outlined and in which it was necessary to get this dispensation unfortunately still continue. As he knows, the Post Office is still doing a very considerable amount of war service work, although there has been a falling off, and it is doing it with a depleted trained staff. I do not want to weary the House by giving a host of figures, but it is still the fact that out of 60,000 people who went into the Forces 40,000 are still there. We have had to move staff. The particular Accounting Department which prepares these accounts has depleted its strength because 200 of them are on loan to other Departments.

The mass, the flood, of work which came in during wartime still continues. Telegrams and telephones are increasing, and an enormous amount of work, as hon. Members know, is being done by the Post Office in the way of war gratuities, pensions and allowances and extra pensions. A terrific amount of work is being laid upon the Savings Bank Department. Let me give one figure which is indicative. In 1938, the number of deposits in the Savings Bank was 30,000,000, but in the eleven months of this year it has been 51,000,000. A more significant figure is that whereas the number of Savings Certificates purchased in 1938 was just under 5,000,000, there have been eleven times as many in the eleven months of this year—55,000,000. That means that the staff have been working at very high pressure. I want to pay tribute, as hon. Members would, I am sure, wish me to do, to the way in which the staff have worked, at very high pressure and for longer hours.

To divert their energies all over the country to compiling exact accounts and to apportioning their work and the rents of their offices, in order to give the complete commercial accounts, would be asking too much of them at the present time. It is right that hon. Members and the country should have a picture of what the Post Office have been doing and how its income has been derived and its expenditure made during the war years, but the right hon. and learned Member knows that we do present departmental accounts to the Public Accounts Committee. They can be produced in a couple of weeks, and printed and pub- lished if the House desires it, and they would give a picture of the allocations to telephone, telegram and postal departments. They are not accounts which we can have audited because they are based, as the right hon and learned Member knows, upon certain approximations, but if the House feels that it would like to have them, I think it would be good and reasonable, and I would be willing to present such accounts to this House at the earliest possible moment.

I should like to ask the Minister a question before we leave this matter. On the day of the Christmas Adjournment a Question was put down on the subject of resuming publication of the accounts. The reply of the Minister was that it was hoped that they could be resumed in April, 1947, which would mean a return to prewar practice. I rise now for the purpose of asking him whether he adheres to that statement. If so, it would very largely meet the point raised in the Amendment. When we pressed this matter in Standing Committee we were handicapped by the fact that the Minister was not on the Committee, where we did not have a representative of the Post Office. Therefore we are seeking to get that particular fact. If it is the case, it largely meets the object which we had in putting forward the Amendment.

Yes, Sir, that is the position. We are asking for this dispensation only for one complete more year, 1946–47. The figures for 1947–48 will be presented in a full way.

In view of what the Minister has said about the difficulties of the staff, and particularly of the Accountants branch of the Post Office at the present moment—and I think he met us in a very reasonable way—I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in page 14, line 62, column 3, at the end, to insert: provides that no person shall wilfully obstruct any person who is exercising powers or performing duties imposed on him by any of the Regulations. "Obstruct" is a very vague term. We read daily in the newspapers of difficulties which arise because those who wish to commit crimes, generally thefts of some kind in dwelling houses, come along and pretend that they have been sent by one of the very numerous Ministries or local authorities which interfere in our daily lives nowadays. Many unsuspecting householders will let them in and rue it afterwards, but those who are a little more suspicious may very well take it on themselves to dispute the entry of an un-uniformed person who comes along and says he has some right of search, or inspection or something of the kind. Perhaps it is with an offer of help by mending the windows or putting in new glass. The householder is very apt to get into a situation where the dignity of an un-uniformed official has been hurt because he thinks he has been obstructed, whereas all that the householder has done has been to try to make certain that nobody comes into the house who is not authorised by law or vouched for by some proper body as an honest and proper person.

Let us not get into this realm at all. Why should we have a special rule about obstruction for Defence Regulation offences, which are usually very much less serious than other offences? If only we can allow the ordinary law to operate here, it will be better. I agree, if a constable or any uniformed person comes along and is obstructed, I would not seriously object to its being an offence, and there is a good deal to be said on that aspect of the matter. Ununiformed people are very likely to be obstructed in complete good faith. It puts householders in a very awkward position if we say that they have to take the risk of a person who comes to the house being authorised, and that if they suspect the authorised person of being unauthorised and obstruct him, they are to be guilty of a crime; whereas if they let him in and he turns out to be unauthorised, the goods of the householders may be stolen. That is not a very nice position in which to put householders.

It would not be difficult to make certain that when ununiformed people turn up and get at loggerheads with a householder they should go away and not let themselves be obstructed, but should come back a little later on. That would save a great deal of trouble, and would help householders. In view of the widespread apprehension of criminals obtaining access to houses by such means at present, perhaps the Home Secretary could see his way to limiting the Regulation in some such way as I have suggested.

5.30 p.m.

I cannot help thinking that most ordinary householders would prefer that the visit should not be by a police constable, which does lead to certain questions and suggestions in the neighbourhood, no matter how innocent or even how helpful the visit of the police constable may be. I do not think that the word "obstruction" is vague and perhaps with more experience in Opposition the right hon. and learned Gentleman will come to agree with me. It is even out of order on certain occasions which is because of it being very definite. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has greatly exaggerated the dangers of this. I have had learned counsel sitting beside me whilst I was listening to him, and I am assured that merely to ask a person to produce his authority could not be regarded as obstruction. If the person fails to produce his authority, I cannot think that any court would hold that an officer had been obstructed, if the householder then said, "You have no authority to come in here to read my gas meter," or "You have no authority to come in here to inspect my premises because they are dangerous." I cannot help thinking a second visit by the same person, accompanied by the police constable, would not be welcome by a cautious householder of that particular kind.

I think nearly all the regulations that will have to be enforced will be enforced by police constables, but there are a few in which I think we shall still have to rely upon the officials, some of whom might look rather curious if put into uniform. After all, even a most dignified uniform becomes somewhat amusing when it is worn by a person too corpulent or by a member of the fair sex who seems to go out and in in the wrong places. [ Laughter. ] I have no doubt that the Minister of Food, as a seaman in uniform, was a very distinguished character, but I very much doubt if he now would care to attempt to get into the uniform, which, I have no doubt, on those occasions he adorned.

There are just two or three instances I can give. There is the billeting officer. I should be very sorry to see billeting put into the hands of the police. I think it is very desirable, as a rule, that some official of the local authority—a teacher, a sanitary inspector or somebody like that—should, in fact, carry out this duty. I also think that the inspection of war-damaged buildings should be done by the local authority surveyor or engineer or his assistant and not by a police constable. I imagine that in most cases they would desire, at any rate in the first instance, to get into the premises unaccompanied by a constable. I hope, however, that publicity will be given to the view I expressed at the beginning of my remarks on this Amendment, that a person is entitled to demand the production of a proper document of authority by the person who claimed the right to enter. I hope that, if that is done, and is recognised, it will be felt in the cases that I have instanced—there may be a few others, but not many—that it is desirable that a person other than a constable should be protected from obstruction by the person who says, "If that is your authority, I don't care about it. You are jolly well not coming into my premises, and I am not going to assist you in the way the law says you are entitled to be assisted."

I do not want to pursue the matter much further, but the last sentence of the Home Secretary suggests that there is such a thing as a forged authority. A person may say that he does not believe that an authority is genuine and there may be obstruction. However, in view of what the Home Secretary has said, that the great majority of these regulations will be enforced by persons in uniform, I do not think we should press this Amendment. I do hope that, administratively, steps will be taken to use ununiformed persons on these matters as seldom as possible. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in page 15, leave out lines 5 and 6, in column 3, and insert:

"For paragraph (1) there shall be substituted the following paragraph:—

Provided that admission to any building or part of a building which is occupied shall not be demanded as of right unless twenty-four hours' notice of the intended entry has been served on the occupier, or authority to enter without such notice has been given by the competent authority on the ground of urgent necessity in the public interest, and the document of authority contains a statement to that effect '."

This is to some extent an effort to meet the point raised in the next Amendment which appears on the Order Paper in the names of the two right hon. Gentlemen who have been conducting the case for the Opposition. It substitutes a new paragraph (1) for the existing paragraph (1) of Defence Regulation 85. The Amendment which was proposed in Committee, and is virtually the Amendment repeated in the names of the two right hon. and learned Gentlemen, would have the effect of rendering the regulation inapplicable to private dwelling houses. The Amendment in Committee was withdrawn after we had had some discussion, and on an undertaking being given by myself to consider whether it would be possible to introduce safeguards into the regulation corresponding to those in the Building Restrictions (War-Time Contraventions) Bill. As I explained to the Committee, it is necessary to retain some power of forcible entry into premises at all times, including private houses, for the purpose of determining whether premises are suitable for billeting, or, more important, ought to be demolished as unsafe owing to war damage. Further consideration which has been given to this regulation by the Departments concerned has shown it is no longer necessary to give the executive a free hand to enter a building under this regulation without any document of authority. It is accordingly proposed in this Amendment to redraft the regulation in such a way as to introduce three safeguards. First, 24 hours' notice must be given before entering any occupied building except in case of urgent necessity in the public interest. Secondly, a person entering must, if so required, produce some duly authenticated document showing his authority for immediate entry on the ground of urgent necessity in the public interest, and the document of authority must contain a statement to that effect. Thirdly, under the regulation at present any member of His Majesty's Forces acting in the course of his duty as such may enter any premises for the purpose of the regulation without being specifically authorised for that purpose. Under the regulation as now proposed to be amended, members of His Majesty's Forces will require specific authority like other officials. Corresponding Amendments will be made by Order in Council to the Order in Council continuing Regulation 85 under the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act. I have endeavoured to meet the serious points that were raised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman in Committee, and I commend this Amendment to the House.

I think I am speaking for every Member on this side of the House, who attended the Committee upstairs, when I say we have reason to be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the way he has endeavoured to meet the points put to him in Committee. This question of forcible entry on to land bristles with difficulties. There is no doubt that in our present circumstances some power of that kind is necessary, but there is equally no doubt that times have changed from war and that we ought to try to modify the powers to suit a peacetime make-up of society. There is also the point to which my right hon. and learned Friend has drawn attention already—the danger that evilly disposed persons may force entry under some pretended powers for the purposes of theft. In view, however, of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, I think our points are substantially met. I am grateful to him for what he has said, and I would like also to express my appreciation of the draftsmanship. I do not propose to move the next Amendment on the Order Paper which covers the same subject-matter, nor do I or my right hon. and learned Friend attach the same importance now as we did previously to the Amendment to the First Schedule in page 15, leave out lines 12 and 13.

Amendment agreed to.

I take it that the right hon. Gentleman is not moving his Amendment to the First Schedule, in page 15, line 6?

I beg to move, in page 15, line 10, col. 3, insert:

"Paragraph (1) shall be excepted."

The effect of this Amendment is to except Defence Regulation 87 (1) from continuance as from 24th February. This regulation requires any person claiming to be a holder of any permit or licence issued under Defence Regulations to produce it on demand to any constable or person acting on behalf of His Majesty. An Amendment was proposed in Committee which would have given the holder of such a permit the option of producing it within three days at a police station. The Amendment was withdrawn on an undertaking by me to give further consideration to the regulation. I have come to the conclusion, after consulting with my right hon. Friends representing the Government Departments most closely concerned, that we can dispense with this requirement altogether, and I shall see that a corresponding Amendment will be made to the Order in Council continuing Regulation 87 under the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act. I think it is better to abolish the thing altogether, rather than to leave it in the condition that was proposed in Committee. I hope, therefore, that on this occasion the Opposition may feel that, having been asked to go a mile with them, without being compelled I have gone twain.

I think the Home Secretary has met our point entirely. We did not want to ask for too much upstairs, but this is the neatest and best way of doing it, I quite agree, and we are grateful.

Amendment agreed to.

5.45 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 15, line 36, column 3, insert:

"In paragraph (7) of Regulation 100, for the words 'as amended by any subsequent Regulations made under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts, 1939 and 1940' there shall be substituted the words 'as subsequently amended, modified or adapted.'"

This Amendment is necessary for drafting purposes. Regulation 100 (7) in its present form provides that any reference in any document to a Defence Regulation shall be construed as a reference to that regulation as amended by any subsequent regulations made under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts, 1939 and 1940. As those Acts are to expire on 24th February, and some of the Defence Regulations are being amended by this Bill, or by Order in Council under the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, it is necessary to substitute for the reference to the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts in the sub-paragraph referred to a reference to any subsequent Amendment, modification or adaptation of Defence Regulations.

Amendment agreed to.

No, Sir; I think it is probably the most important of those remaining on the Paper for which I am responsible. Therefore, I beg to move, in page 15, line 50, column 2, leave out "Regulation 15A shall be excepted," and insert:

"In paragraph (1) of Regulation 17 the words 'or by reason of hostile operations in the United Kingdom' shall be omitted, and in paragraph (2) of Regulation 20 the definition of 'hostile operations' shall be omitted."

This Amendment makes three changes to the Defence (Administration of Justice) Regulations. The first alteration is one of some considerable substance. It is effected by this Amendment and provides for the temporary continuance until 31st October, 1947, of Regulation 15A of these Regulations which it is proposed to make permanent by the Second Schedule of the Bill. This Regulation permits the separation of juries in case of murder, treason and treason felony exactly as in other cases. Objection was taken, both on Second Reading and in Committee, to the proposal to legislate with permanent effect on so important a matter as trial by jury in a Schedule to a miscellaneous Bill like the present. I promised the Committee that I would probably be able to transfer this provision to the First Schedule on the Report stage, and this Amendment makes the necessary provision for such a transfer. The regulation is indispensable in the present shortage of accommodation, and while there is a good case for its enactment as part of the permanent law, I am content that consideration of that question shall wait until a more suitable opportunity presents itself and the consequent enactment could be found in some place more convenient to those who have to study these matters. That is the first and most important part of the Amendment. The second part is mainly drafting and effects the omission from Regulation 17 of a reference to hostile operations in the United Kingdom which is no longer applicable. The third part of the Amendment is consequential on the second, and effects the removal from Regulation 20 of the definition of hostile operations.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 15, line 56, column 2, insert:

"In paragraph (1) of Regulation 28B, the words 'the efficient prosecution of the war or,' shall be omitted."

This Amendment is necessary because those words have ceased to have meaning in this connection. The regulation referred to, namely, 28B, is that which empowers the Minister of Agriculture to transfer certain powers hitherto performed by county councils to the War Agricultural Committees. The precise wording affected is that which says,

"if it appears to him expedient so to do in the interests of the efficient prosecution of the war or the maintenance of supplies and services essential to the life of the community."

Obviously the words "the efficient prosecution of the war" have ceased to be necessary, and that is the purpose of the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 16, leave out lines 30 and 31.

The effect of this Amendment is to omit from the Schedule a reference to the Defence (National Service) Regulations which enable the Minister of Labour and National Service to call up for national service nationals or citizens of certain Dominions and Colonies after three months residence in Great Britain. The Ministry are no longer calling up such persons and there is no need for the Regulation to be kept alive after 24th February.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 17, line 31, column 2, at end, insert:

"In paragraph (10) of Regulation 7, after the words 'the purposes specified in Subsection (1) of Section one of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939,' there shall be inserted the words 'or Subsection (1) of Section one of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945' "

This Amendment makes a necessary drafting correction in Regulation 7 of the Defence (Patents, Trade marks, etc.) Regulation which protects trade marks and other matters in relation to goods imported on Government account and defines the expression "goods imported on Government account" by reference to

"importation in connection with any of the purposes specified in Subsection (1) of Section one of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939."

As this regulation may require to be applied to goods imported after 24th February next there should be added to this definition a reference to Section 1 (1) of the Supplies and Services Act, 1945.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 17, line 36, at end, insert:

This, of course, is not a new idea contained in this regulation which we now desire to perpetuate for a further period after February next. It is one which has been very much discussed in the past, both here and in another place as well as among industrialists, and I might remind the House of some of the earlier discussions relating to it. The first three heads I mentioned—research and experiment in manufacture, research and investigation, which is called "market research," and statistical collection, were three matters which were assigned to the Cotton Board for their care in the Cotton Industry Act, 1940, in which they were supported by a compulsory levy on the industry in order to carry out those operations. I think most people will agree that they have carried them out with a very large degree of success. The procedure was suggested for other industries both by Private Members' Bills introduced in this House in regard to specific industries, and also, in another place, by a Motion introduced in 1944 by Lord Barnby largely in connection with the wool industry. The then Government stated they were broadly sympathetic to this idea, but that they were carrying out certain inquiries as to reconstruction of the industries of the country and that they would rather wait to declare their definitive opinion on how this should be done until they had had those conversations with various industries.

Meanwhile, under a very similar Regulation made with regard to export industries, or rather two Regulations, both in 1940, similar powers were given to the Board of Trade, but only with regard to the export of goods, which naturally created difficulty. When one wishes to concentrate on general research in an industry, one cannot isolate research on export from research for home manufacture. Those powers were limited to export, but they were, in fact, utilised in the wool and leather industries in 1940 and 1941 and there are still continuing in those industries levies to assist in market research and similar matters. Inquiries made by the last Government in 1944, resulted in an ascertainment of a certain degree of response from some of the important industries. In fact, amongst the industries which welcomed this proposal, and gave certain indications that they would like to make use of these powers if granted were the wool manufacturing industry, the rayon industry, hosiery, pottery, footwear and furnishing fabrics. At the same time, it was ascertained that there did not seem to be any objections from those industries which did not intend to ask for the powers as they would not be concerned with them at all.

Last Autumn Lord Barnby returned to this matter in another place, and introduced a Bill with powers to enable the Board of Trade to impose a statutory levy to finance research in industry where 75 per cent. of the industry voted in favour of it. That Bill was considered very carefully by the Government. It was not thought to be quite appropriate in the form put forward, nor was there the prospect of any Parliamentary time being available in order that the Bill might be passed through all its stages even had it been suitable in form. But they stated on that occasion that they were favourably impressed with the idea which lay behind the Bill, and would take the earliest opportunity to see whether proposals of that sort could not be tried. It was then that it occurred to us, that if, as we understood, both sides of industry were broadly sympathetic to the idea, it would be a good way of getting speedy legislation if we could incorporate it in a Regulation and then bring the Regulation, as we have done, before the House on this Bill. Thereby we would get 18 months, or rather more, in which we could tell whether industries desired this method of levy for co-operative service and meanwhile we would be able to think out or devise a more permanent form of legislation, in order to carry the matter on afterwards in whatever way was considered most advisable.

6.0 p.m.

One of the reasons why we were so anxious to get speedy legislation on this matter was because we are expecting in the course of this year a number of recommendations from various industries regarding what they require in the realm of reconstruction, and we expect a number of them who have already indicated their desire for something of this kind will ask for an early implementation of some such scheme, in order to assist them in the vital work of reconstructing their industries on a peacetime basis. It would be most unfortunate, we feel, if owing to the impossibility of passing specific legislation for each individual in- dustry—we are dealing with six, eight or possibly 20 industries—it would be most unfortunate if we had not some means by which, when an industry desired it, we could give them this form of assistance.

There are, as the House will note in the form of the Regulations, certain quite definite safeguards or limitations. First of all, the money can only be raised for the specific purposes laid down in the Regulations, that is to say it cannot be raised for a number of matters as to which people might differ as to whether it was advisable or not that such, collective action should be taken. It cannot be taken, for example, in relation to a price-fixing ring. It is limited to research, market research, the collection of statistics and such matters. Secondly, there is a limitation of amount at £500,000. That may sound rather a lot, but if one considers the expenditure necessary on modern research institutions, and one thinks of some of the great industries of this country, say the wool industry, that would be a very small sum to spend annually on research. Thirdly, there is the safeguard that no imposition of such a levy could be made without the consent of a large part of the industry concerned, and further without an Order being made which would have to be placed before this House, and upon which this House could, by negative resolution, express its opinion if it thought it was inadvisable in any way.

Having made these safeguards, we feel it is advisable to keep the matter as flexible as possible. This is not one of those matters in which, with the widely differing circumstances of industry, it is possible to lay down a code, because circumstances are so different, the needs of different industries vary so widely—the amount they would be likely to want, the sort of bodies they will want to deal with. Bodies like the Cotton Board are perhaps constituted quite differently from what is required for some other industry. The whole matter is so much at large that we feel it is better for the House to rely upon these consultations between the industry and the Board of Trade, so that as far as possible we can get the best form for a particular industry, and then submit it in the form of an order to the House, when the House, from its own peculiar knowledge, will be able to say whether it thinks we have been successful in accommodating an Order to the circumstances of the industry or not.

I would, therefore, ask the House to agree to this Amendment in order that we may contribute as much as we can to the speedy reconstruction of our industries, giving us what may be a flexible instrument of some value, which can be utilised only in those cases in which a large part of the industry is anxious that they should co-operate in order to get the best out of these general services, which are so' often so difficult for individual firms to undertake but which can properly be provided co-operatively for the industries themselves.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman has made a very persuasive appeal but unfortunately, at least to the eye of one who has no great industrial knowledge, his appeal hardly corresponds with the terms of the document before us. We are in considerable difficulty about this because this order, although it was made on 20th December, does not appear in the last list of Statutory Rules and Orders published in the Vote Office, and accordingly most of us were completely ignorant of its existence until yesterday. Most of us were unable to see the order itself until today, and accordingly there has been no adequate -opportunity for consultation. Each of us, therefore, has to present his own opinion.

In view of the rather exceptional circumstances of time I did take the opportunity of writing to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison) at an earlier stage, telling him the whole history of the affair, and pointing out all that I could.

I agree. The right hon. and learned Gentleman gave much the same impression as his speech today gave, but it is a very different impression from that which I got when I first obtained the order and read it. I shall develop that point in the difficult circumstances that I and many of my hon. Friends have not had the opportunity of putting our heads together and exchanging views.

Let me take the first point which leaps to the eye. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that an industry which does not ask for powers is not concerned. Again he said that consent would be necessary. That does not appear in the order. The order says:

Let us proceed. It is perfectly true that all the objects set out in the first object of the Order are highly desirable, and so far as my limited knowledge goes it is perfectly true that there is a good deal of room in a great many industries for further research. Research has been growing for many years, and it has not yet grown to its full stature. It has a long way to go. It is equally true of co-operative research in many cases, perhaps, but not in all. The virtues of co-operation can be over-estimated, but in many cases cooperative research may have great advantages over individual research, I agree. When we turn the page a very diffierent picture is presented. What happens? There is no provision at all for any consultation about the amount of money that is to be raised, the method by which it is to be allocated, who is to be charged, or how much is to be charged. There is no appeal of any sort or kind from an industrialist who says, "But I am not concerned with this particular subject; I am a specialist off the ordinary line and, it is not going to benefit my line at all, and therefore I should not pay" He has no chance of making his representations to any impartial person. Nor can anybody say, "I am being asked to pay more than my fair share." Surely, in a matter of this very great importance, there ought to be some provision, some way in which these matters are to be determined, by some other agent except the uncontrolled discretion of the Board of Trade itself.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman in introducing the Amendment made some references to consultation with, I think he said, the large part of the industry. What about the person who has neither been consulted nor has agreed, or who is consulted and disagrees? Is he to have no redress? Is he not to be entitled to say to any impartial or judicial body, "I ought not to be brought into this," or having been brought in, "I ought not to have to pay all this money"? Really, the right hon. and learned Gentleman is faking to himself a vast power, far more than he should, if he is going to say he is to be completely in control so far as the law is concerned. Why should he not make some provision for some impartial body, whether it be a law court, or a tribunal specially set up, or some other impartial body, to decide these matters? After all, £500,000 a year is a good deal of money, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman hardly explained that that £500,000 might be taken from each of these 20 industries he spoke about, making £10,000,000 in all. Ten million pounds is a great deal of money to take out of industry in this country, on this fly leaf, which is in front of us for the first time today. I see the right hon. and learned Gentleman's difficulty. He wants to get on quickly, but, after all, I think we might have had a little more time. It was not essential. Surely this matter could have been passed in time to circulate this Order, and it should not have been sprung upon us in this manner.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman said he wrote to my right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison). True, he did, but he did not send a copy of the order. I think if my right hon. Friend had seen the order he would have taken a very different view from the view which he took on receipt of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's letter. I, certainly, would have taken a different view. Quite frankly, I do not think there has been adequate time to consider this matter, and I am inclined to think the more we consider it the more objectionable it becomes. I put it to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that there are several things he ought to do. To begin with, in the second paragraph—which is the first operative paragraph—he ought to make adequate provision for agreement, and he ought to define how he is going to get that agreement. It should not be possible for this to be thrust upon industry, unless under some well understood form of agreement. That is the first thing. The second is there ought to be adequate provision for any person who is to be assessed to appeal to some impartial body. I do not say this should be included, but the two grounds on which appeal appears to me to be possible would be either, "I should not be in this at all," or, "I am brought in and charged far too heavily." I would submit further there ought to be a provision by which orders made under this very vague Regulation are available for Parliamentary criticism.

6.15 p.m.

On the contrary, I think—the right hon. and learned Gentleman will correct me if I am wrong—that whereas regulations he subject to a negative Resolution, this Order, unless it is effected by something that I do not recollect at the moment, is not subject to a negative Resolution. If the right hon. and' learned Gentleman assures me it is, then that is all right. I have not been able to look the matter up in the time at my disposal. No Order under this, is the subject of a negative Resolution, even if it is an Order imposing a charge on one particular person, as it may well be. It says: the shares of the victims it is rather a different thing. May we take it the Order will be available for a negative Resolution?

That meets that point, but it does not meet the point about an appeal, nor does it meet the point about adequate definition of the consent which is necessary to put the whole thing in order. I regret we have not been able to consider the matter in greater detail. This must be presented in a rather disjointed way, but so far as my humble gifts and knowledge go, I am bound to say I think these points ought to be met, as they easily can be met, before we allow this to pass. It it perfectly easy to produce another order within the next week, and to move it into the Bill in another place. It is true the Bill must become law before 24th February, but there is a good deal of time remaining before then and, therefore, the right hon. and learned Gentleman cannot say it is not practicable to meet these points. He must say, if he does not meet them, that he will not do it, and he has given no reasons in his speech, no reasons at all, which lead me to think that the Amendments which I suggest are in any way questionable or undesirable.

I have no idea at all as to whether this matter should be included in the Schedule, but I am very interested in the legislative process involved. Before this Bill was introduced, such an Order, such a Regulation, as it is now proposed to include in this Schedule, would have been presented to the House. There would have been an interval of time, and during that interval of time Members would have had the opportunity of studying it, and if they did not like it they would have had the opportunity of moving a Prayer against it. The House would have given its considered judgment on that Prayer as to whether or not the order, or regulation, was a good one. What has happened here? I do not know when this regulation was laid on the Table. I may be wrong, but I imagine that it was laid during the Recess, and I suppose that the number of days for praying against it began to run then. What will happen now? This is the Report stage of the Bill. If we put this into the Schedule now, then add the Schedule to the Bill, and then complete the Report stage and Third Reading, subject to anything that may happen in another place, this regulation becomes the law of the land, and it becomes the law of the land, unless I am greatly mistaken, without the House ever having had an opportunity of examining it. I speak as one who recognises, as most of us do—all; of us on this side of the House—the absolute necessity for subordinate legislation of this kind. I am not one of those who object to it in principle, or have doubts about its practical necessity. I admit the practical necessity, and I do not regret the practical necessity, but that makes it all the more important that the process should not be brought into disrepute, and I think it is brought into disrepute, to some extent, if we put it into the Schedule in this way.

May I correct the hon. Gentleman? I am sure he does not wish to mislead the House, but the way he has put the matter is not at all correct. This regulation has been laid in the normal, way. It was laid at the beginning of January and there will be 40 days in which a Prayer against it could be moved in the ordinary way. The only effect of putting it into the. Schedule is that, instead of expiring on 24th February next, it will be continued after that date, and that is all, but, up to that date, it is open to the ordinary course of objection.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman has raised a very important point. Perhaps he has considered it, but I have not had the opportunity. I certainly think that, once this is incorporated in the Bill, all opportunity of a Prayer has gone, because it becomes part of the Bill. What is the good of saying that something has happened after that? Parliament has said that it has to stands part of the Bill and no Prayer can possibly, knock it out again. Therefore, we have been deprived of an opportunity of praying against this Order.

If my right hon. and learned Friend is right, no doubt it affects my argument very considerably, but it, still leaves the House in this rather anomalous position—that we decided to continue a regulation for a considerable length of time before ever having had an opportunity to consider whether we want it at all. That would be the in- evitable result. I am fortified by the disagreement among eminent legal opinion, but I am as definite as the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite in the belief that, if we add this to the Bill now, we will never have any further opportunity at all. I entirely agree that, if it turns out that we have that opportunity, my point is of very much smaller importance, but it is not only that.

There is another safeguard that the House may rightly adopt in this matter of subordinate legislation. There is a Scrutiny Committee on Statutory Rules and Orders. I happen to be a member of it, and I see, at any rate, one other member present. What is our duty as to considering these matters of subordinate legislation as and when they occur? We have to consider them, and, if there is anything in them that we think ought to be brought specifically to the attention of the House, we have to make a report about it. We have not considered this one yet. We may decide that there is nothing in it which requires the special attention of the House. I imagine that we shall so decide, but who am I to say that?

The majority may think differently, and we may then be in a position of directing the special attention of the House to an objectionable feature in a regulation which we have just decided to continue for a considerable length of time. I do not know whether my right hon. and learned Friend could have done anything else. Maybe not, but I do think that, in all these matters of subordinate and delegated legislation, we ought to be most meticulously careful to see that no opportunity that the House can reasonably be afforded of dealing with such a Regulation should be neglected or stultified by over-haste. I think it is necessary to make that point in the interests of the class of legislation by which the policy of this party on this side of the House and of this Government can be carried out, because we cannot carry out that policy without it, and it is vitally necessary that we should keep its repute clear and give every Parliamentary opportunity for examination of what is to be done.

I only saw this regulation at lunch time today. I imagine that that is the case with other hon. Members. I do not like it, but I have had no time to consult industry, whose views on this, I am sure, would be well worth having. I do not like the way in which it is proposed to organise this plan. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said we have already had an example in the cotton industry, where 75 per cent. of the industry have to agree before the levy could be imposed upon the whole industry.

I did not say 75 per cent. I said that, when a Bill was advanced in another place, there was a suggestion of 75 per cent., but that has nothing to do with cotton.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman did say that a large part of any industry would agree. For instance, under the Agricultural Marketing Act, the Milk Marketing Board does conduct its own research and its democratically organised members elect the body that is to supervise the research. What do we find in this Order?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman does not want to misunderstand me? The Board of Trade cannot do anything except raise that levy; that is the only power it has got. All the rest, as in the other cases, has to be organised by the industry.

6.30 p.m.

The Board of Trade may make the arrangement and order the money to be raised for carrying out the arrangement. Supposing only a small proportion of the industry desire to come in, that proportion might very well accept the policy of the right hon. and learned Gentleman and spend the money in ways with which the majority of the industry are not in agreement. There is nothing here to show that design and research are really going to be linked with the production engineer. During the war, for instance, we had the experience of research in respect of tanks being carried on in one place, and production in another, which provoked the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) to many interventions in this House. Unless the industry is wholeheartedly behind this we may well have foolish experiments. There is nothing in the order to stop them. Paragraph 2 says:

"Businesses can be compelled to produce all their documents."

Presumably, that means all the trade processes and secrets. I do not know what it means when it says:

"To produce such books, accounts or other documents relating to trade or business."

That is extremely wide.

It says:

"For the purpose of the recovery of the charges."

My belief is that we shall not get successful co-operative research unless the industry concerned agrees. I see nothing in the order to make the industry agree. On the contrary, the Board of Trade can, if they like, force the pace and set up a body not representative of the whole industry. I cannot help remembering the discussions on the Income Tax Act when we made special concessions to firms in respect of amounts spent on research. We have not had time to see whether that has been successful. It ought to give a great stimulus to research in industry, and industries should be allowed to organise their own research departments I very much hope the President of the Board of Trade will at least give us time to consult opinion outside this House before the Order goes through.

When I first saw this order I confess I shared the uneasiness expressed by some of the other speakers tonight, but what the President of the Board of Trade has said, has reassured me to some extent, although not entirely. In operating this arrangement I ask him to be the friend of the small manufacturer, because this order will probably be operated, through the Board of Trade co-operating in and instigating research of this description with trade associations. Unfortunately, trade associations are not always very democratic; they are often operated by a small self-seeking clique. It would be possible for such a clique of manufacturers to put up a scheme to which some of the smaller manufacturers would not agree, but they would have to fall into line if sufficient of the others wished it to operate. If that should happen some of the smaller manufacturers will be dictated to by the larger ones, to their detriment. In those circumstances it is necessary that the Board of Trade should be the special guide, counsellor and friend of the smaller manufacturers. In addition, the small man is not always able to take advantage of research of this description because he has no technical or research people of his own, and there is no gateway through which the results of co-operative research can enter into his organisation. Therefore, in order that the full benefit of such a scheme can be made available to the small man, we shall have to wait for a larger supply of scientists and engineers to be made available. I agree we must push ahead with the organisation of research in this country, but I hope that the two points I have raised will be very carefully watched by the Board of Trade.

I hope the right hon. and learned Gentleman is going to seek your permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to make a further speech and will deal with the point I wish to support, in addition to the points raised by my hon. Friends in the Order itself. I believe the right hon. and learned Gentleman will do me the justice to admit that I do not want to be egoistic, but I am no novice in the matter of objecting to orders of this kind. I did it in the case of the Coalition Government, and on many other occasions. I wish to call attention to what I think is a very serious matter from the point of view of the control that this House should have over what the hon. Gentleman below the Gangway rightly described as "subordinate legislation." I wish to draw attention to the seriousness of this breach—I will not say of custom or good manners—of what should be a common-sense rule. This Order is admitted on both sides of the House, by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) and by hon. Members on this side to be one of importance. Every one admits that.

This order was made at the Court of Buckingham Palace on 20th December, 1945. We do not know yet when it was laid. Perhaps some hon. Members are not aware that a Paper can be laid in dummy, so that it does not matter when it was laid, but the point is that it was only available in the Vote Office this afternoon. The matter has been approached in a non-party House of Commons manner, but it is true to say that the House has not received proper treatment in connection with it even in these days of. loss of liberty and of emergency in which we are living at the present time. I challenge the right hon. and learned Gentleman to deny that what the Government are attempting to do in this matter is to place an utterly intolerable burden upon Parliament, and especially upon the officials and printing departments of this House. It is probably because of the pressure placed upon the printers, that the Order did not appear until today. If that is so, the answer is that there must be either more printers, or that the Government must adopt a different method. The procedure is completely and absolutely wrong, and I trust I am registering the protest of the whole House in saying it is a thing which should not happen. I hope the right hon. and learned Gentleman will apologise to the House for what has happened.

I shall probably be ruled out of Order if I refer to the Committee on Procedure, for two reasons, first, because it does not arise on this Amendment and, secondly, because its findings are secret until they are reported. I will say, however, that the Government, in matters of this kind, in view of the fact that there is a committee appointed to deal with procedure, should be far more hesitant than they have been in making use of this particular form of procedure. It might well be that there would be a very strong report made against it. It is an innovation which was originally justified and which has frequently been found convenient, but I must frankly say—and I know the Leader of the Opposition will not resent my saying it—I think it has been extended rather further than some of us like.

Whatever the explanation made by the Coalition Government—and, after all, there is an immense volcanic rift between the situations then and today because we were then at war with Germany and japan—why is there the need to bring in this particular form of order in the way in which it has been brought in today? I do not wish to make a purely party speech, but I must warn the right hon. and' learned Gentleman that we shall fight with all our power against this form of procedure in future, and we believe and hope that there is a sufficient House of Commons spirit in this new House of Commons to obtain a good deal of support in that fight on more than mere party grounds.

With the leave of the House, perhaps I may be permitted to reply. I quite appreciate, and, indeed, I sympathise with what the Noble Lord has just said. I do not think he need be nervous about this procedure being adopted any more, because after February it will be impossible. This, in fact, is the last possible date on which this could be done at all. It would be no use doing it unless it could be included in the present Bill, because any such Regulation would cease to exist in February and would obviously be of no value at all. I admit that if it were not for the exceptional circumstances we should not have proceeded in this way. It was because of the exceptional circumstances, because during this coming year there is going to be a great deal of work on reconstruction, when many industries are coming forward and asking for assistance, that we did not want to be without a weapon which would be of assistance to industry in this reconstruction period.

As to the actual procedure, I am informed—and, naturally, I can only give the information I have; I cannot give it from personal knowledge—that this Amendment appeared on the Order Paper on 12th January, and the Regulations were at that date available in print. As I have said, I took the earliest opportunity of writing to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison), who was in charge of this matter, in order to give him the fullest information I could about this some- what exceptional procedure. The position, surely, is this. These orders, which were deposited a day or two ago directly the House was opened, will he in the ordinary way for the proper period. This Bill, of course, will have no effect on them until it gets the Royal Assent. The probability is that the period of 40 days will have run out before the Royal Assent is given, but even if that were not so they do not derive their power from this Act. All this Act does is to extend the period during which they will Operate. Whereas these Defence Regulations would come to an end in February, 1946, by virtue of Clause 1 of this Bill they will be continued until December, 1947. That is the effect of Clause 1 of the Bill, so that, as a matter of procedure, it does not in the least alter the power of the House to deal with these regulations as what they really are, namely, regulations, with regard to which it has certain powers and rights in respect of making representations and passing Resolutions if it wishes. Therefore, what my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) said was not quite in point, because certainly we have not sought in any way to diminish the power of the House of Commons in this matter.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) raised the question why we did not put into the regulation something about consent of the majority, or something of that sort. The reason for that is this. One can talk easily about an industry and one may think one has some conception J of what it means. If one is dealing with something very precise—for instance, cotton spinning—it is quite easy to define it. It is quite easy to know who spins cotton and who does not, but when one is dealing with a less easily definable industry, such as the glass industry, for instance, it is almost impossible to ascertain where to draw the line. One can do it only by meeting the various associations and trades unions, of which there may be a great multiplicity.

6.45 p.m.

I have had a great deal of experience in this matter in the last few weeks, going round and seeing industries all over the country. It is really impossible as a matter of legal definition to lay down any line as regards an industry. If one were to say, for instance, that it should be 75 per cent. of the industry who should give their consent, it is quite impossible to define of what it is 75 per cent. What we must do, in fact, is to take the common consensus of opinion of those who are accepted as being the recognised people in the industry, and if, on the common consensus, the majority want it—let us say we have been asked to do it in the wool industry.—then we say, "This is what the industry wants and we are prepared to make the arrangements under this Regulation." We would not, in the least, mind putting in some provision if it were possible or practicable, but it really is not. If I may take the wool industry as an example, how is one to define the limits of that industry? It is extremely difficult to do. Should we include wool combers? Should we cover the worsted and the woollen industry, and so on? Where are the limits going to be? On the other hand, we can have a meeting of all the principal people who can say, "We are agreed that this is something we want you to do for us," and that is a general consensus of opinion in the industry.

Does not a definition have to be produced for the purposes of payment?

No, payment can be applied afterwards by putting a charge on the raw material. In the leather industry, for instance, under the Export Order, the charge is on the leather. In the cotton industry the charge is on the raw cotton. We do not have to go into who uses it or to whom it is sold. In the case of cotton, it is spread over the entire industry and it has been found a most satisfactory way of doing it. In most of these cases, no doubt, that would be found the most satisfactory method. Those matters of detail can be discussed when the detailed Orders are laid before the House. What I would point out to the House is that if we want a general provision, which we do, which on the instigation of industries can be applied to their assistance, the details cannot be put in the general power. There must be a provision for detailed Orders. Those detailed Orders come to the House of Commons, which, I think, is the right tribunal to decide whether the right sort of body is going to collect the money and run the research institution, or whatever it may be, and if they are so satisfied the Order will go through and will come into operation.

With that explanation and the statement which I repeat—that we do not wish in any way to impose this on the industry, we are anxious to have these powers only so that we can assist industry when industry wants that assistance, as a number of industries have already expressed to us,

and we want to be in a position to be able to give it to them—I hope the House will put us in that position so that we may, in this very difficult time of reconstruction, have in our hands this added weapon with which to assist our industries.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 276; Noes, 145.

Division No. 62.]

AYES.

[6.50 p.m.

Adams, Capt. Richard (Balham)

Dobbie, W.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Adamson, Mrs. J. L.

Douglas, F. C. R.

Leonard, W.

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Lever, Fl. Off. N. H.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Dumpleton, C. W.

Levy, B. W.

Allighan, Garry

Dye, S.

Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

Alpass, J. H.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Lewis, J. (Bolton)

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Edelman, M.

Lindgren, G. S.

Attewell, H. C.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

Austin, H. L.

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Little, Dr. J.

Ayles, W. H.

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Logan, D. G.

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

Longden, F.

Bacon, Miss A.

Ewart, R.

Lyne, A. W.

Baird, Capt. J.

Fairhurst, F.

McAdam, W.

Balfour, A.

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

McEntee, V. La T.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

Foot, M. M.

McGhee, H. G.

Barstow, P. G.

Forman, J. C.

Mack, J. D.

Battley, J. R.

Foster, W. (Wigan)

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Bechervaise, A. E.

Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)

McKinlay, A. S.

Bellenger, F. J.

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Maclean, N. (Govan)

Benson, G.

Gaitskell, H. T. N.

McLeavy, F.

Berry, H.

Gallacher, W.

MacMillan, M. K.

Beswick, Flt.-Lieut. F.

Ganley, Mrs. C S.

Macpherson, T. (Romford).

Bing, Capt. G. H. C.

Gibson, C. W.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Binns, J.

Gilzean, A.

Mallalieu, J. P. W.

Blackburn, Capt. A. R.

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Mann, Mrs. J.

Blenkinsop, Capt. A.

Gooch, E. G.

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Blyton, W. R.

Goodrich, H. E.

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Boardman, H.

Gordon-Walker, P. C

Mathers, G.

Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

Grey, C. F.

Mayhew, C. P.

Bowen, R.

Grierson, E.

Medland, H. M.

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Middleton, Mrs. L.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'p'l, Exch'ge)

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Gunter, Capt. R. J.

Mitchison, Maj. G R.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Guy, W. H.

Moody, A. S.

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Haire, Flt.-Lieut. J. (Wycombe)

Morley, R.

Brown, George (Belper)

Hale, Leslie

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

Mort, D. L.

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Moyle, A.

Burke, W. A.

Hardy, E. A.

Murray, J. D.

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Haworth, J.

Nally, W.

Byers, Lt.-Col. F.

Herbison, Miss M.

Naylor, T. E.

Chamberlain, R. A.

Hicks, G.

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Champion, A. J.

Hobson, C. R.

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Chater, D.

Holman, P.

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Chetwynd, Capt. G. R.

Horabin, T. L.

Oldfield, W. H.

Clitherow, Dr. R.

House, G.

Oliver, G. H.

Cluse, W. S.

Hoy, J.

Orbach, M.

Cobb, F. A.

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Paget, R. T.

Cooks, F. S.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

Coldrick, W.

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Collick, P.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Palmer, A. M. F.

Collindridge, F.

Irving, W. J.

Pargiter, G. A.

Collins, V. J.

Janner, B.

Parkin, Flt.-Lieut. B. T.

Colman, Miss G. M.

Jeger, Capt. G. (Winchester)

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Corlett, Dr. J.

John, W.

Pearson, A.

Corvedale, Viscount

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

Peart, Capt. T. F.

Cove, W. G.

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Perrins, W.

Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

Keenan, W.

Piratin, P.

Daggar, G.

Kenyon, C.

Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield).

Daines, P.

Key, C. W.

Popplewell, E.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

King, E. M.

Porter, G. (Leeds).

Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

Kinley, J.

Proctor, W. T.

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

Kirby, B. V.

Pryde, D. J.

Deer, G.

Lang, G.

Pursey, Cmdr. H.

Delargy, Capt. H. J.

Lavers, S.

Ranger, J.

Diamond, J.

Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

Rankin, J.

Rees-Williams, Lt.-Col. D. R.

Steele, T.

Watson, W. M.

Reeves, J.

Stephen, C.

Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Strauss, G. R.

Weitzman, D.

Rhodes, H.

Stross, Dr. B.

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Robens, A.

Stubbs, A. E.

Wells, Maj. W. T. (Walsall)

Roberts, Sq.-Ldr. Emrys (M'rion'th)

Summerskill, Dr. Edith

White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

Swingler, Capt. S.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Symonds, Maj. A. L.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Rogers, G. H. R.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.

Royle, C.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Wilkes, Maj. L.

Scott-Elliot, W.

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Wilkins, W. A.

Segal, Sq.-Ldr. S.

Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Sharp, Lt.-Col. G. M.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)

Williamson, T.

Simmons, C. J.

Thorneycroft, H. (Manchester, C.)

Willis, E.

Smith, Capt. C. (Colchester)

Tiffany, S.

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

Timmins, J.

Wilson, J. H.

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

Titterington, M. F.

Wise, Major F. J.

Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.)

Tolley, L.

Woods, G. S.

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Yates, V. F.

Snow, Capt. J. W.

Usborne, Henry

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Solley, L. J.

Viant, S. P.

Zilliacus, K.

Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

Walkden, E.

Sparks, J. A.

Walker, G. H.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES

Stamford, W

Watkins, T. E.

Mr. J. Henderson and Capt. Michael Stewart.

NOES.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Pitman, I. J.

Aitken, Hon. M.

Hare, Lt.-Col. Hon. J. H. (W'dbridge)

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Amory, D. Heathcoat

Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Scot. Univ.)

Head, Brig. A. H.

Prescott, W. R. S.

Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.

Baldwin, A E.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

Barlow, Sir J.

Hogg, Hon. Q

Ramsay, Maj. S.

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

Hope, Lord J.

Rayner, Brig. R.

Bennett, Sir P.

Howard, Hon. A.

Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Birch, Lt.-Col. Nigel

Hulbert, N. J.

Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

Hutchison, Lt.-Cdr. Clark (Edin'gh, W.)

Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)

Bower, N.

Hutchison, Lt.-Col. J. R. (G'gow, C.)

Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

Boyd-Carpenter, Maj. J. A.

Jarvis, Sir J.

Ropner, Col. L

Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

Jeffreys, General Sir G.

Ross, Sir R.

Braithwaite, Lt.-Cmdr. J. G.

Jennings, R.

Sanderson, Sir F.

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Scott, Lord W.

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Lambert, G.

Shephard, S. (Newark)

Bullock, Capt. M.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Shepherd, Lieut. W S. (Bucklow)

Butcher, H. W.

Lindsay, Lt.-Col. M. (Solihull)

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Carson, E.

Linstead, H. N.

Smithers, Sir W.

Challen, Flt. Lieut. C.

Lloyd, Brig. J. S. B. (Wirral)

Snadden, W. M.

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Spence, Maj. H. R.

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. O

Corbett, Lt.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

McCallum, Maj. D.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

MacDonald, Sir M. (Inverness)

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Macdonald, Capt. Sir P. (I. of Wight)

Sutcliffe, H.

Crowder, Capt. J. F. E.

Mackeson, Lt.-Col. H. R.

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

Cuthbert, W. N.

Maclay, Hon. J. S.

Teeling, Flt.-Lieut. W.

Darling, Sir W. Y.

MacLeod, Capt. J.

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Davidson, Viscountess

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold

Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

De la Bère, R.

Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)

Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

Digby, Maj. S. W.

Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F.

Dodds-Parker, Col. A. D.

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Wadsworth, G.

Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.

Marsden, Capt. A.

Walker-Smith, Lt.-Col. D.

Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

Marshall, Comdr. D. (Bodmin)

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Drayson, Capt. G. B.

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

Duthie, W. S.

Maude, J. C.

Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)

Eccles, D. M.

Mellor, Sir J.

Wheatley, M. J.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Molson, A. H. E.

White, D. (Fareham)

Erroll, Col. F. J.

Morris-Jones, Sir H.

White, Maj. J. B. (Canterbury)

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Morrison, Rt. Hn. W. S. (Cirencester)

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)

Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Gammans, Capt. L. D.

Neill, W. F. (Belfast, N.)

Willink, Rt. Hon. H. U.

Gates, Maj. E. E.

Neven-Spence, Major Sir B.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)

Nield, B. (Chester)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Glossop, C. W. H.

Orr-Ewing, I. L

York, C.

Glyn, Sir R.

Osborne, C.

Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G.

Peto, Brig. C H. M

Gridley, Sir A.

Pickthorn, K.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Mr. Studholme and Mr. Drewe.

SECOND SCHEDULE.—(Permanent Amendments of Enactments and Laws.)

7.0 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 21, leave out lines 26 to 42.

This Amendment omits from the Second Schedule two of the three provisions relating to juries which it was proposed to make permanent. The first of these we have already transferred to the First Schedule. The second is the provision at present contained in Regulation 3 (1) of the Defence (Administration of Justice) (Scotland) Regulations, which limits the area from which jurors have to be summoned in Scotland. It is not proposed to transfer this provision to the First Schedule, but to omit it altogether. When these provisions were considered upstairs, the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) said that he would not like to see this Scottish provision made permanent in its present form. As a result of the further consideration, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has been able to give to the matter, it has been decided that the continuance of this provision after 24th February is not of sufficient importance to warrant its retention in the Bill.

This Amendment carries out a promise of reconsideration made upstairs, and we are grateful for the way in which it has been given effect.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."—[ Mr. Oliver. ]

7.4 p.m.

I should like to refer to the fact that this Bill will increase very considerably the complexity of the law. The Bill has three main objects. The first is to extend certain temporary Acts for a certain length of time, in most cases until the end of 1947, but any of these Acts may be brought to an end before that date by Order in Council. As the House is aware, there is a large number of other Acts also which may be brought to an end by Order in Council made at various times, and I suggest that there is a very grave danger of mistakes being made through there being on the Statute Book Acts of a temporary nature and Acts which are extended by this Bill. Confusion will be caused by those Acts coming to an end without adequate notice being given. I would like to ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State whether he is prepared to make arrangements whereby a complete list of temporary Acts will be published, showing the dates on which they will come to an end unless they are previously revoked or extended, and showing also the extent to which they are amendable or extendable. Amendments to that list should be published at frequent intervals.

At the present time we have a chronological table of Statutes, but I think I am right in saying that the last edition of that table is three years old. Furthermore, the time lag of about six months between the bringing into effect or repeal of an Act, and publication in the chronological table, is too great. The table is only published, even in normal times, I understand, at yearly intervals. The situation for the next two or three years will be this. Sections of Acts will be expiring at various times, and every time a subject or his legal adviser has to find out whether a particular. Act or section of an Act is still in force, it will be necessary for him to start burrowing among the Orders in Council which may have been passed during the last few years. Every time that is done, I suggest, it is a complete waste of time. This information must be in the hands of my right hon. Friend or of his Department, it must certainly be in the hands of the Stationery Office, which needs the information in order to compile the chronological table, and I suggest, therefore, that there would be a great economy of effort if that information were published at very much more frequent intervals, and brought up to date monthly, if possible. It would be a very great help to the public at large, and to the legal profession in particular, if that were done so far as the Statutes included in this Bill are concerned, and also the various other temporary Statutes which are on the Statute Book.

The second object of this Bill is to extend the Defence Regulations. I do hope that the Home Secretary can give us an undertaking that there will be a complete reprint of the Defence Regulations which are to be prolonged beyond 24th February, because not only are certain Regulations extended under this Bill, but others also under the Supplies and Services Act. Orders in Council have been made extending Defence Regulations, and that is enough to cause a certain amount of confusion, but I would point out one further fact, that the regulations as extended by this Bill are extended in the form in which they would exist on 24th February. I would just single out for comment The Defence (Administration of Justice) Regulations, 1940. They appear in Part II of the First Schedule to this Bill, but in point of fact a very large number of those regulations have already been revoked. Anyone wishing to see whether those regulations are still in effect will first have to look at this Bill, and then look back over the various Orders in Council which have revoked regulations in the past, and if a regulation has been revoked and then reinstituted, an enormous amount of trouble will be caused. Therefore, I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us an assurance that a complete reprint in such a form as is easily capable of amendment will be produced within the next few weeks, in order that everyone may start with a clean sheet and know which of these Defence Regulations and Emergency Acts are still in force and when they are likely to come to an end.

7.10 p.m.

My office covers a very wide range of the public service, but, fortunately for me, it does not include the responsibility for publishing the Acts of Parliament. Therefore, I cannot give an answer to the first question that has been raised by the hon. Member for Hitchin (Mr. A. Jones), but I will bring his remarks to the attention of the Treasury, who, I think, are the Department responsible, and will ask them to give the matter their attention. With regard to the other point he has raised, we have had some discussion during the passage of this Bill as to the way in which the law can be made as clear as possible in so far as it is affected by this particular Measure. It is quite clear this is very necessary, because on the Second Reading we had the example of hon. and learned Members opposite getting up and talking about regulations which had been revoked; and even this afternoon we had the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) and the hon. and gallant Member for Holderness (Lt.-Cmdr. Braithwaite) directing remarks to a particular sub-paragraph that, curiously enough, was the only part of that regulation which happened to have been re- voked. That is a position in which people ought not to be placed. I have undertaken that, I hope on 24th February, but if not then, as soon thereafter as the present state of the printing industry will allow, there shall be published a complete set of the Defence Regulations then in force in the form in which they are then in force on that day both under this Bill and under the Supplies and Services Act; and that will be, I hope, an indication that will enable the wayfaring man to read these regulations—I leave out the three words that were used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison)—pursuing his Sunday stroll, to understand exactly what the law is should he get into one of these protected places or other areas that are the subject of these regulations.

Emergency Statutory Rules and Orders "are to be published monthly by the Stationery Office which bring these various regulations up to date. But I have undertaken that I will arrange to have published from time to time—when there have been a sufficient number of amendments—an amended volume that will not reprint the matter that has been revoked but will enable an ordinary person wishing to consult it to understand exactly what the state of the law is at the moment of publication. I think that is as far as I can be expected to go. I am exceedingly anxious, as I hope I have shown throughout the discussions on the Measure, that the law shall be as understandable as it is possible to make it.

I cannot leave this Bill without expressing my thanks to Members on both sides of the House for the very great assistance they have given us in arranging for the passage of this essential but, to all of us, unwelcome Measure. Upstairs we had the advantage of a very good spirit in Committee which enabled me to consider quite dispassionately a number of points that the Opposition raised. I have endeavoured to meet them where it has been possible, and I sincerely hope that the results of this Measure may be that a number of restrictions on our liberty will vanish on 24th February, and that such restrictions as are necessary thereafter will be so plainly stated that we can hope there will be no unintentional infringement of the requirements of the law.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

Trunk Roads Bill

As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Supplementary provisions as to Manchester Ship Canal.)

Subsection (5) of Section fourteen of the Act of 1935 (which precludes the compulsory acquisition by means of an Order under that Section of rights in land for the purposes of the construction of a bridge under or over the Manchester Ship Canal) shall not apply in relation to the acquisition of such rights under that Section if the acquisition is required—

( a ) for the purpose of the construction of a bridge for which provision is made by any such Order as is mentioned in Section six of this Act; or

( b ) for the purposes of the execution of any works (other than the reconstruction of a bridge on a different site) for the maintenance, improvement or alteration of a bridge transferred to the Minister under Section seven of this Act.—[ Mr. Barnes. ]

Brought up, and read the First time.

7.15 p.m.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

My attention has been drawn to the fact that the Docks and Harbour Authorities Association and the Manchester Ship Canal have experienced some anxiety with regard to the powers I have under this Bill in constructing and in taking over bridges. They have informed me that they are rather afraid that, in the guise of reconstruction, it will be possible for me to construct an entirely new bridge without invoking the procedure under Clause 6. Of course, the Minister—myself—and, I suppose, any other Minister—would never have any such intention; but I think we are all aware that in these matters it is not always desirable to depend on intentions of Ministers; and as on this occasion I have time to meet their difficulty by the insertion of this new Clause, I am taking the opportunity to insert it, and, I think, it will allay their apprehensions.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Saving for Rochester Bridge.)

The provisions of this Act with respect to the transfer of private bridges shall not apply to Rochester Bridge.—[ Colonel Ponsonby. ]

Brought up, and read the First time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

Had the hon. Member for Chatham (Mr. Bottomley) been here he would have taken a great interest in this Bill relating to Rochester Bridge, but, unfortunately, he is in India; and in the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom), I have been asked to move this Clause. I am very glad to do so, because the position of Rochester Bridge is almost unique in this country. I say "almost" because, I believe, London Bridge is a little older; but, of course, in connection with this Bill, it comes under the City of London and, therefore, is not concerned with our proceedings today; and the other bridge is at Bideford in the West Country. But apart from them, Rochester stands alone in antiquity and in many other ways. I would mention that in earlier days there was a wooden bridge. In 1391 a bridge was built by Sir John de Cobham and Sir Robert Knollys. That was a stone bridge, and the owners contributed to its cost and maintenance, and lands were set aside as an endowment to keep it in repair and to provide new bridges for the future if necessary. In the 16th Century difficulties arose with regard to finance, and in the time of Queen Elizabeth an Act was passed charging a tax on the lands concerned. That was repealed under the Rochester Bridge Act, 1908.

From the time of Queen Elizabeth onwards the original endowment has increased in value, and for 400 years this bridge has been maintained without cost to the public. In 1856, it was rebuilt in stone in its present position, and in 1914, it was rebuilt in steel. The House would wish to know under what powers this bridge is administered. They are the Rochester Bridge Act, 1846, and the Rochester Bridge Act, 1908. In addition, a scheme under the Charity Commissioners was passed in 1888. The management of the bridge is in the hands of a governing body, called the Court of Wardens and Assistants of Rochester Bridge, and is entirely representative of the various bodies interested: The Kent County Council has six members; the City of Rochester two; the Borough of Maidstone, two; the Borough of Chatham, two; and the Borough of Gillingham, two. The Conservators of Medway have also two members, and the Company of Proprietors of the Lower Navigation of the River Medway have one member. I am sure the House will agree that this is a very representative body.

I would like to say one word with regard to funds, because to a great extent this is a question of money. The endowments have increased continuously since 1391. The funds are held by the Official Trustees of Charitable Funds under the scheme, which I have mentioned, of 1888. These funds provide for repairs and maintenance for reserves for extraordinary repairs and rebuilding, and, in addition, are available for contribution to works elsewhere on the Medway—to facilitate passage across, under or over the Medway, and to maintain the banks and channels of the Medway. Owing to the care with which these funds have been administered, in addition to repair and rebuilding the Rochester Bridge, considerable sums have been contributed to the cost of other bridges over the Medway. We thus have a position that there is a trust under the Charity Commission with adequate funds, competent management and technical advice. This has been going on during the past 500 years. I must make one reference to the Minister's speech on the Second Reading of this Bill on 8th November last when he was discussing the difficulties which occur when some of these trunk roads run over bridges. He said: bridge in the future should fall upon public funds. The Trust has been able to provide the bridge and can continue to do so. Tradition is the life-blood of the Men of Kent and Kentish Men, but I am not basing anything which I have said, or making any request to the Minister to accept this new Clause, on sentiment or tradition; I am basing it purely on commonsense and as a practical matter. I hope that as such the Minister will accept this Clause.

I beg to second the Motion.

In the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom) through a most regrettable illness, I should like to support the Clause which has been moved by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Colonel Ponsonby). As he has informed the House, Rochester Bridge has a peculiar and interesting history, and if I may refer to a later Amendment in my name, I will quote from it: and also of its county administration, which has been efficient, long-sighted and prudent. I maintain that it is most definitely not such a bridge as it is intended under this Bill to transfer to the Minister, and that the evils which the Bill seeks to prevent do not, in fact, apply to Rochester Bridge. There is a very strong local feeling in the matter which I believe is practically unanimous, and I sincerely hope that the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to accept this Amendment.

7.30 p.m.

I feel it is probably as well that, on my own behalf as well as on behalf of my colleagues in the representation of this area, I should have a few words to say. My point is totally different from that of previous speakers. If it had been the case that this bridge was to form a permanent portion of the trunk road system of this country for many years to come, I would have cast on one side the idea of the old traditions and all that went with them and presented the bridge, with a beautiful plaque all decked out in gold, to record what had been done in the past. I should then have been in favour of this bridge being taken over completely by the Minister so that there should be a completely uniform system. On the other hand, in the very near future, everyone knows that this particular bridge and the whole of that area will be by-passed. Then we shall be faced with this peculiar situation, that we shall have taken over this ancient foundation and all its traditions and all its wealth, and having taken that over in accordance with the Bill we proceed in a few weeks' time to hand it back to the local authority. I do not know what would happen to the money, but hand back the bridge and you destroy the whole of the traditions for nothing at all. I am opposed to this proposal simply because if one could save for the Medway towns the immense sum of money that they have available there, and let the Minister have his bridge, we could have the money, and we could maintain the foundation and its charitable objects. Since we cannot take that course, I recommend the Minister in this instance not to be an iconoclast over a period of three years, and then to have to hand the crown back again without its jewels. Rather I suggest he should let the matter be, knowing full well what is in the minds of all town planners and road builders as regards what should happen in that area.

As a Member for Kent I cannot let this new Clause pass without asking the House to listen to a few words in defence of my beloved county. The three hon. Members who have just spoken have supported the new Clause, and I want to add a few words, also in support. There is one point that has just been touched upon and perhaps I may be allowed to enlarge upon it. As the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Binns) said, the Medway towns must be by-passed, and if this bridge were taken over as part of a trunk road, the approaches to it are quite inadequate to carry any traffic even with the bridge enlarged. It would necessitate pulling down a lot of old and historic buildings. I suggest to the Minister that the only way is to make a new bridge lower down, between Rochester and Maid stone. Another point is that it seems quite unnecessary to make this bridge a charge on the public. For 400 or 500 years there has been no charge, and there need never be a charge. I wish to support the new Clause with all the power at my command.

In this Bill, Parliament is entrusting to my right hon. Friend the responsibility for ensuring that the major highways of this country and all the bridges that are on them, are adequate for the traffic that requires to use them. Further, he and his successors must see to it that, at all times in the future, these roads and bridges shall be up to the standard necessary for the developing traffic requirements of the country. We are forced, therefore, to look on this question primarily from this traffic angle. The question we have to consider is this: If Parliament should exempt this bridge as is desired in this Clause, would the present or any future Minister of War Transport be handicapped in providing for a full and free flow of traffic along this particular trunk road. Obviously, the Minister would be wrong to make an exception of this one bridge when he is taking over hundreds of other bridges in various parts of the country, unless there were peculiarly strong reasons for doing so.

We must, therefore, satisfy ourselves, first, that there are such exceptional conditions attached to this bridge, and second, that so far as it is possible to foresee the future, this exemption, if, made, is unlikely to handicap the Minister in the exercise of his duties. First, then, about the exceptional circumstances. Hon. Members who have moved and supported this Clause have dealt with those in some detail. All I need say is this: There is no doubt the House will agree that the story of this bridge is an unusual one which must appeal to every one in this country with an historic sense, particularly those who live in Rochester and have a pride in the ancient history of their city. As we have been told, this stone bridge was put in this place in 1391. At the same time certain lands and endowments were provided by gentry in that area at that time to provide money for the repair and upkeep of this bridge. In the course of time the value of those endowments has increased substantially, until, today, it is no less than about £400,000. Incidentally the story of this increase through the ages would, I am sure, greatly interest the advocates of the taxation of land values. The trustees are almost entirely representative of the Kent County Council and the other major Medway towns. It is clear, therefore, I think, that the existence of this ancient trust with its stories stretching over centuries, has an historical and—I do not hesitate to use the word—romantic, value which many feel it would be a pity to destroy unnecessarily.

How about the other test? It is one which we must apply to the question of the preservation of any anachronism in our public affairs. To what extent, if any, would the preservation of this Trust, with its responsibility for the bridge, interfere with the requirements of modern conditions? Will it prevent my right hon. Friend or any successor of his, bringing about whatever improvements he may require in the structure of this bridge. On that question, after consideration, we have come to the conclusion that it would not create any such interference. First the funds in the possession of the Trust, as I have already indicated, are ample, even if at any time in the future it should be necessary to reconstruct the bridge completely. Secondly, the trustees are prepared to give an undertaking that at any time, if the request should be made by the Government, they will improve the bridge according to the requirements of the Government, or if necessary rebuild it completely.

The third, and probably the most important point, which was put before the House by my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Binns), was that it is most unlikely that there will ever be a requirement put on the trustees to widen or rebuild the bridge, because in all probability a by-pass will be built for these Medway towns. My hon. Friend was, I think, a little optimistic when he mentioned three years as the period in which a road might be built. I think it will be rather longer than that. If the bridge were taken over by the Ministry to be handed back some years later, not to the Trust, which may have disappeared, but to the local authority, which would much rather it remained in the hands of the Trust, there would be a lot of unnecessary transfer to the benefit of nobody. While we do not suggest that exemption of this bridge will strengthen the Government in carrying out the purpose of the Bill, we do not think that exemption will weaken it. In view of all these circumstances, therefore, and the historical association attached to the bridge, which it would be a pity to rupture needlessly after about 500 years, my right hon. Friend is prepared to accept the exemption proposed in the new Clause. But he asks me to make it clear that he agrees to the exemption on the understanding that the circumstances surrounding this bridge are exceptional and in the belief that this proposal commends itself generally to the House.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

On a point of Order. I handed in a manuscript Amendment, Mr. Speaker, in the form of a new Clause, which I notice has not been called and which, I understood, would be in Order. I wanted to argue a case for a bridge at Bideford, which is identical with the bridge which we have just exempted from the Bill.

I am sorry to disappoint the hon. and gallant Member. Although technically he was in Order in handing in a manuscript Clause on the Report stage under our Sessional Orders which dealt with wartime conditions, I feel it would be an undesirable precedent for the Chair to accept such an Amendment in peacetime. I would, therefore, suggest that the matter might be put forward in another place rather than by a manuscript new Clause on the Report stage now.

CLAUSE 2.—(General provisions as to orders under Section 1.)

I beg to move, in page 2, line 8, leave out from "be," to end of line 9, and insert "subject to special Parliamentary procedure."

When I was moving the Second Reading of the Bill I explained that in the event of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Bill becoming an Act of Parliament I should then make arrangements for the Orders under this Bill to come within the Special Procedure. In the passage of the Bill that event has now happened, and the new Special Procedure becomes operative in June. This Amendment puts the matter in Order.

Amendment agreed to.

7.45 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 14, leave out "of the order," and insert "on which the order takes effect."

This is another Amendment affected by the special Parliamentary procedure. Under this arrangement I provide for the claiming authority to have 12 months for operation from the date of the Order. Under the special procedure it is possible for a delay to take place and, in fact, Parliament could reject the Order. In either instance, it is bound to curtail the period of 12 months which is allowed to the claiming authority. This Amendment restores the period of 12 months.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 4.—(Additional powers relating to side roads connected with trunk roads.)

I beg to move, in page 5, line 43, leave out from "and," to end of line 45, and insert:

"Subsection (4) of Section two of this Act shall apply in relation to a road for which the council of a county or county borough become the highway authority by virtue of such an order as it applies in the case of orders made under Section one of this Act."

This Amendment, which looks rather complicated, has a simple purpose. It meets a request put to us by the Urban District Councils' Association. It enables an urban district council—which is entitled to claim, under Section (32) of the Local Government Act, 1929, for the maintenance of a road—to claim immediately a bit of road which normally, if this Amendment were not inserted, would have to go to the county council, would have to wait for the claim to take place and for the county council then to hand it over to the urban district council. That would be a nuisance to everybody concerned, and in order to overcome that difficulty we ask the House to accept this Amendment.

Amendment agreed to

CLAUSE 6.—(Bridges and tunnels over and under navigable waters.)

Amendments made: In page 6, line 37, after "of," insert "such."

In page 7, line 7, leave out from "be," to end of line 8, and insert "subject to special parliamentary procedure."—[ Mr. Strauss. ]

CLAUSE 7.—(Transfer to Minister of private bridges carrying trunk roads.)

I beg to move, in page 7, line 19, leave out "and vest in."

If it would meet the convenience of the House, I would like to discuss this Amendment and the Amendments in lines 23, 30 and 45 together. When this Clause was before Standing Committee I explained that the railway companies had drawn my attention to certain difficulties that might arise with regard to third-party interests. My right hon. Friend opposite will remember that I endeavoured to meet those difficulties. It affects the uses to which certain parts of bridges are put. The arches are sometimes used for storage and garage purposes, for advertisements, and in some instances for shops, and so on. It appears from further examination that a situation might arise in which a third-party interest might have to enforce its claim against the Minister. The only power which the Minister really requires is to use the bridges for the purposes of a highway authority. Therefore, it has been considered desirable that the rights of third-party interests should rest upon the ordinary processes of the law. The relationship of the Minister will remain a single relationship towards the owners of the bridge, whether they are a railway company or any other body. That is the purpose of these Amendments.

I think the right hon. Gentleman has made a praiseworthy attempt to get over the difficult question of the rights of third parties in these structures, but if what I have been told is right, I gather he has not yet got over the trouble with regard to the railway companies themselves. I am told that the very sweeping words of the third Amendment to which he referred raises a difficulty in the minds of the railway companies. These bridges, besides being the sites of third-party commercial and other operations, are the sites of some of the railway companies' offices, entrances, booking offices, and so on—premises which are essential to the running of the railways. They fear that the extremely sweeping vesting in the Minister which is set out in the Amendments will leave them in the difficulty that there will be nobody to maintain these premises which are necessary to the working of the railways. The Minister himself will not take on their maintenance, and the railway companies will not be empowered to maintain them. This is, of course, the sort of matter that could easily be put right by mutual consultation and explanation, but as information on this difficulty reached me this afternoon, I thought it my duty to inform the Minister that, if he wishes to avoid any further discussion during the progress of the Bill, it would be as well to get this matter cleared up with the railway companies.

I do not anticipate there will be any great difficulty over this matter. In the case of any properties that belong to the railway companies, if they are themselves the owners of the bridge, the third party interest would not arise. The matter would be settled by direct negotiations between the Minister and the railway companies, as the owners of the bridge and the owners of their own property. I think the provisions that are being made will meet that difficulty, but I will undertake to look into the matter before the Bill reaches another place. I do not anticipate any difficulty. With regard to the larger problem, probably I shall be able to settle that for the railway companies in another way at a later date.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 7, line 23, leave out "and vest in."

In line 30, leave out from "subject," to "notwithstanding" in line 36, and insert:

"as hereinafter provided, the bridge, including any building or structure comprised therein and the road carried thereby, shall by virtue of this section vest in the Minister for all the estate or interest of the owners therein, and thereupon—

In line 45, at end, insert:

"Provided that the Minister and the owners may, by agreement in writing made either before or after the date on which the bridge is so transferred, agree that the provisions of this subsection with respect to the transfer of property shall not apply, or as the case may be shall be deemed not to have applied, to such property comprised in the bridge as may be specified in the agreement."

In page 9, line 1, leave out "required," and insert:

"(other than the reconstruction of a bridge on a different site)."

In line 7, leave out from "bridge," to end of line 8.—[ Mr. Barnes. ]

CLAUSE 8.—(Miscellaneous provisions relating to trunk roads.)

I beg to move, in page 10, line 6, leave out "or."

I will deal at the same time with this Amendment and the following Amendment—in page 10, line 7, after "borough" insert: "or metropolitan borough." The Minister may appoint an agent to look after certain roads for him. It may well be that a road passes for a short length through a metropolitan borough council's area. He may appoint as his agent some other local authority, but if that other local authority is to be the agent for the part of the road which lies within the area of the metropolitan borough council, it is necessary that the consent of that metropolitan borough council should be first obtained. That is the simple purpose of these two Amendments.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 10, line 7, after "borough," insert "or metropolitan borough."

In page 11, line 1, leave out "section four," and insert: "subsection (2)."—[ Mr. Strauss. ]

CLAUSE 13.—(Application to Scotland.)

I beg to move, in page 14, line 33, at the end, insert:

"(6) The Second Schedule shall have effect as if in paragraph 2 for the words from 'county borough' to the end of the paragraph there were substituted the words '(inclusive of any small burgh therein) or large burgh in which any road to which the Order relates is situated, and, in the case of a road situated in a small burgh with the maintenance and management of which the town council of that burgh is charged, on the town council.'

(7) Where an Order is, in pursuance of this Act, subject to special Parliamentary procedure—

This Amendment affects the Scottish application Clause. The first Subsection defines in appropriate Scottish terms the town and country councils to which notice of a proposed Order is to be served. The second Subsection brings the Bill into line with the Scottish provisions of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945.

Amendment agreed to.

SECOND SCHEDULE.—(Procedure for making Orders.)

I beg to move, in page 32, line 5, after "situated," insert:

"and in the London or Edinburgh Gazette, as the case may be."

The Second Schedule deals with notices of Orders which are made, and the purpose of the Amendment is to secure that, besides advertisement in a local newspaper, there shall also be advertisement in either the Edinburgh or London Gazette as the case may be. The idea is to secure that not only the local agencies of railway companies and other such organisations shall have notices, but also the central bodies which are located in one or other of the capitals.

I am very glad to accept this Amendment as it will lead to considerable publicity.

Amendment agreed to.

8.0 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 32, line 29, leave out "unless," and insert:

"provided that except where the objection is made by any such council as aforesaid, the Minister may dispense with such an inquiry if."

We move this Amendment following an undertaking we gave in Committee to the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton). It ensures that if any local council desires a local inquiry to be held in respect of any of the matters provided in this Bill then the Minister is bound to hold such an inquiry. If a private person demands a local inquiry the Minister may refuse the request if he considers the objection entirely frivolous, but if a council does so he is, under this Amendment, compelled to hold the inquiry.

I should like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for having carried out the promise he gave on the Committee stage. At the same time I would rather that he had been able to go further and apply that concession to the case of a private individual. But I am not pressing the point In fact I rose to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for having gone to the extent he promised and having carried out in full the undertaking he gave to the Committee.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in page 32, line 31, at end, insert: extremely harshly treated whereas, if they recognised the reasons for the order, and considered them reasonable then they would recognise that they would have to put up with the adverse burden.

There is just one other point. Certain persons who attend these public inquiries have a definite feeling that the Minister does not always abide by the recommendations which are made by the person who holds the inquiry, and therefore I feel that wherever possible these things should be brought out into the daylight and not locked up in drawers so that those who are adversely affected feel all kinds of suspicion which may not in fact be justified. It is for that reason that I should like this report to be amended in accordance with the Amendment I have moved.

I am sorry, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that I am unable to accept this Amendment. It is the established practice in all Government Departments—I think the correct practice, and the one which has been accepted by all Governments—that where an insepctor holds an inquiry on behalf of a Minister and then reports his findings to the Minister that report should be confidential. It is perfectly clear why. If the inspector knows that his report is going to be published he is far less likely to be frank and outspoken in it than if he knows that it is a report to be made solely for the Minister who has authorised the inspection and for the Minister to act upon as he thinks proper. Therefore I do not think the hon. Gentleman can ask us on this occasion to depart from that well established practice—which in the past has shown its value to all Governments and to all Ministers—that the report of an inspector appointed by a Minister to hold an inquiry and report back to him, the Minister, should remain confidential.

The hon. Gentleman is surely not suggesting for a moment that there have not been exceptions, because I would draw his attention immediately to the case of the Hydro-Electric (Scotland) Act, 1923, where the report of the inspector was made available and was in fact printed in the form of a White Paper.

The exceptions exist where the inspector is acting in a quasi-judicial capacity or as an arbitrator or where his findings are subject to some formal appeal, but only in those cases. Under the conditions we are contemplating here—and this is the case in regard to a large number of other forms of reports and inspections on behalf of Ministers—the report is for the Minister only. It is not a quasi-judicial inspection. The man is not acting as an arbitrator, he is acting on behalf of the Minister to report back to him and therefore it would in fact be going back on the established practice if in this case we accepted the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THIRD SCHEDULE.—(Minor and Consequential Amendments of the Principal Act.)

Amendments made:

In page 33, line 41, leave out "Subsection (3)," and insert "Subsections (3) and (8)."

In line 41, after "'county,'" insert "in both places where that word occurs."

In line 44, leave out from beginning to end of line 46.—[ Mr. Strauss. ]

8.10 p.m.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

I gladly take this opportunity of expressing my thanks and appreciation to Members in all parts of the House for facilitating the passage of the Bill. Ten years have passed since the first Trunk Roads Act was enacted, which transferred 4,459 miles of through road from local authorities to the State. Under the Bill, another 3,685 miles are added to our trunk road system. If one compares the mileage of the national through roads with the mileage of other classes of road, they do not appear to be very considerable. The total mileage of Class I roads 19,404, while for other classified roads it is 17,634. Unclassified roads account for 135,348 miles. It is true that we have made two tentative bites at this problem, but I think that we are proceeding in the right direction. Probably the most important difference between the two Measures is that the 1936 Act was a rigid Measure, just limiting the power of the Minister, until he received fresh legislation, to the roads then transferred. In the Bill, Parliament is good enough to provide the Minister of War Transport in the future with flexible powers upon which he can proceed to extend the road system by experience.

That is an exceedingly wise decision. We are just emerging from a period of six years of war, in which the whole of the transport activities of this country have been very severely, and rather grimly, restricted. When the restrictions on transport are removed, either by the freeing of petrol and motive power, or when the productive capacity of the motor industry is in full blast again, I think we have to contemplate a deluge of vehicles upon our modern roads. I recognise quite clearly that one is charged with very grave responsibility in endeavouring to meet that situation, which will so quickly come upon us. We have never yet adequately made provision in this country for the type of traffic that uses our roads. Physically, the problem is not one that can be adjusted in a short space of time. I am encouraged by the attitude of Parliament to commence, and I have commenced very vigorously, a policy of preparing far-reaching and imaginative plans, which I hope to develop in the course of years, to enable us increasingly to solve this difficult and complicated problem.

This is the occasion for us to remind ourselves that we have long passed the period in which prejudice used to exercise an influence on this problem. We are all motorists today. The whole of the population in these islands are motorists, because we use bus, coach or motor car, as the case may be. Our food and our goods are carried by lorries on our main highways. We all have a common interest, therefore, in trying to solve this problem. I approach it, and I am sure that Parliament approaches it, in the spirit of providing every user of the King's Highway with the facilities to which he is entitled. Under the Bill, at least on our main roads, we provide an opportunity of eliminating black spots by widening existing roads, by-passing through traffic from our main industrial cities and, above all, by the very valuable power of bridging the waterways of this country either by bridges or tunnels.

I must confess that I am grievously disappointed there was no opportunity in the Bill to deal with the problem of ferries and with the construction of special motorways for our existing fast traffic.

I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but I must remind him that he may not talk, on this stage of the Bill, about matters which are not contained in the Bill.

I had already completed my remarks, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. The Bill enables me to carry out certain works in development areas and that will be of very considerable advantage. I am referring to areas like South Wales, the North-East coast and parts of Scotland. The powers for the construction of new roadways will be very valuable. I have been encouraged very much by the general trend of criticism on the part of hon. and right hon. Members. I cannot recall a single contribution that has stated that I have been too far-reaching or too bold in the policy envisaged in the Bill. Hon. Members have urged me to add additional roads and to undertake further liabilities. I explained in Committee that, having the powers contained in the Bill, I hope, in a short time, to review the position again. In the meantime, the Bill represents a balanced programme of advance and I therefore ask the House to give me this Third Reading.

8.19 p.m.

I rise to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the safe passage of his Bill through the House of Commons. We all agree that, though it is not perfect, it is a good Bill. I think it is all the better for the process of examination and discussion to which it has been subjected in this Chamber and upstairs. Of course, we are all anxious to see what the right hon. Gentleman will do with the powers contained in the Bill. We hope that he will take advantage of some early opportunity to give us that wider conspectus of road plan and policy which it would be impossible to contain within the leaves of this Statute. So far as we have gone, I should like to express, on behalf of the Opposition, our appreciation of the way in which the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary have done their best upstairs to understand, and then to deal with, the arguments and suggestions which we put before them. We had a very harmonious Committee, and I think it is a happy situation when the affairs of this country can be conducted in so business-like a manner.

This Third Reading gives me the opportunity to refer for a moment to one remark I made on the Committee stage, which is not entirely up to date and accurate. In the course of our discussions on the Clause regulating the financial liability between the Minister and the bridge owners, in the event of a bridge being taken over to form part of the trunk road, I referred out of a past, which is becoming even more rapidly distant than I thought, to a state of affairs in Argyll on a bridge from Conell-Ferry to Benderloch where a high toll of 10s. per motor car was charged by a railway company. I only introduced that by way of showing that if the bridge is taken over, not only should the railway company be prepared to pay something to relieve them of the liability, but the fact that they have assisted to collect tolls should be taken into consideration. I am gratified that my information is not up to date. The present railway company owns the toll bridge but they inherited it from predecessors in title. They were responsible for building the bridge and for the Statutory Regulations which accompanied it. I am gratified that under an Order of the Ministry of War Transport the railway company have reduced some of these tolls from the high level which was on my mind when I spoke on the Committee stage. If they are not cheap enough yet they show a useful downward trend, and there is free passage afforded to such people like nurses and doctors.

I am glad to see this policy for making the bridge generally available to all classes of the community. I should like to congratulate the owners on this improvement and urge that better facilities should be available in the future. It is quite true that the right hon. Gentleman hinted in the course of one discussion that he may shortly be coming before us with proposals of a more contentious character. We could not afford him the same wholehearted unanimity on that occasion as he has got on a Bill of such respectable ancestry as this one. However, all these things are in the future and it is a good thing at the end of a long day to remember that "Sufficient until the day is the evil thereof." Standing as we do at this point of time we can congratulate the Minister on the successful and safe passage of the Bill through the House of Commons.

8.24 p.m.

I am very sorry to say that I will have to bring a note into the Debate which does not agree with the eulogy already given to this Bill before the House. Some time ago in Committee, it was my fortunate or unfortunate lot to express an opinion, and, whilst there were lapses by the Minister a few moments ago, I am not allowed under Parliamentary Procedure to express my thoughts as easily as the right hon. Gentleman was though he was called to Order. I do not wish to approach that particular domain, but to talk about this wonderful Bill. My comment is not against what is in the Bill but what is not in the Bill. If I were to deal with that I would be ruled out of Order and, therefore, all I am going to say is that I do hope that the Minister will deal with the points which have been raised under the provisions of the Bill which invest certain powers in him. As I understand it, great national undertakings carrying great responsibilities can certainly be dealt with by the Ministry. It does not need a special Act to be brought forward for that, and I take it that the Minister has the necessary powers to deal with any special undertakings in the nature of highways or public roads which ought to be dealt with within the ambit of the particular Bill which we are debating tonight.

I have no Government knowledge in regard to these particular matters, because Members of the Government on the Front Bench do not always move in the same direction as Members on the back benches. Therefore one has to elicit from the Minister, if possible, in the House of Commons what he really intends to do. I am not allowed to do this under this Bill, but I am trying to say quite enough in language that can be understood by hon. Members, when I speak of big undertakings, in order to find out in regard to that matter which is known to the Minister and to others of the Government what is their idea in regard to the future, and at an early date, in regard to undertakings that have been brought under notice which are as great, if not greater, than the matters dealt with in this Bill. I am being quite careful, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I do not want to have your Ruling against me. I want to find out if the Minister would be prepared to make a statement—he knows exactly what I am after—and I hope he will make it within the province of the Bill. I am, of course, anxious that Parliamentary procedure shall be carried out strictly—

It is no good the hon. Member seeking to tempt the Minister to get out of Order.

With all due respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I do not think any back bencher would be able to tempt anyone on the Front Bench. All I am anxious to elicit from the Minister is whether, having enunciated a line of policy in regard to the future, he is prepared at an early date to treat the national institutions of this country on the same lines and within the ambit of the Bill which he has been able to carry so happily through the House tonight.

8.28 p.m.

In moving the Third Reading of this Bill the Minister referred to the powers which Clause 1 now gives him to take in additional roads. In this particular case I am in a difficulty, as I was not able to be present during the Committee stage of the Bill because I had to attend another equally important Standing Committee. I see that in Clause 1 (2) the Minister will keep under review the national system of routes for through traffic in Great Britain. I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary could definite what is a through road? The Minister may recollect that I have been in correspondence with him over a certain road, and the reply given to the local authority, I understand, is that as the Lochgilphead-Campbeltown Road is not a through road, it does not qualify for inclusion in this Bill. Might I suggest to the Minister that because a road finishes at the sea coast it is not necessarily deprived from being part of a through road—

The hon. and gallant Member is getting out of Order. He must talk about the Bill.

I apologise, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I am trying to elicit from the Minister a definition of a through road. I gather that in the Bill there are certain roads classified as trunk roads because they are through roads, and some of them finish on the coast. Therefore I find it difficult to understand why the road from London to Eastbourne is classified as a through road while certain roads in Scotland, equally important and also finishing on the coast, are not through roads. It would be for the clarification and guidance of local authorities if they might be able to understand this particular point. I do not wish to get out of Order by making specific mention of a road which is not in the Schedule. We welcome very heartily the power the Minister has to review other roads in the country and to take them within the powers of this Bill. Perhaps we can have from the Parliamentary Secretary an explanation of what is meant by a "through road."

8.30 p.m.

I understand that when this Bill goes through, the Minister need no longer come to Parliament to ask for further powers to take over a road which he considers should be developed. Does that mean that in any decision he has previously come to with reference to a road which must be considered to be a trunk road with the passing of this Bill he will be able to consider any representations made to him by Liverpool Corporation in reference to the Mersey Tunnel being included as a trunk road under this Bill?

8.31 p.m.

I would like to say a few final words on this Bill before it passes to another place. It was subjected to fairly close examination upstairs, and the Minister was always very courteous, though I am afraid he was regrettably reluctant to accept a great many useful Amendments put forward by many hon. Members. Nevertheless, I hope he will be able to pay heed to one or two suggestions I wish to make on the Bill as it now stands. Clause 1, the most important Clause, enjoins the Minister to keep the national road system under review, and also empowers him to add or remove roads from the schedule of trunk roads. In the Committee stage suggestions were made and Amendments were put down asking that something in the nature of a progress report or statement should be made by the Minis- ter from time to time to show what he was doing. After all there is a great deal of public interest in our highway system. Every one of us uses the roads in one form or another as a pedestrian, motorist or cyclist, and we all know that there is a great deal of work required on the road system in order to bring it into a sound state. Will not the Minister consent to issue a White Paper or make some statement of policy at a later date when he has had time to look into the whole question of the additional roads he is considering taking over as trunk roads? I realise that it is a job which is going to take some little time, but perhaps in, say, six months or so, or perhaps towards the end of the Session the Minister might issue a White Paper which could form the basis of a discussion on road policy and road development. The Minister resisted any Amendment which would have had the effect of calling for an annual report—

The hon. and gallant Member cannot refer to an Amendment which was not accepted.

Perhaps the Minister will make a statement of policy at some time which could be debated in the House. I hope he will comment on this point in his reply.

My second suggestion refers to Clause 6, which is the next most important Clause in the Bill because it deals with the powers the Minister has to construct bridges and tunnels. That is a matter of very considerable interest to many parts of the country, especially Scotland, where we have a good many estuaries which require bridging or improvements to transport facilities. I am not referring only to the Forth Road Bridge which was discussed in Committee, but to other estuaries as well. I would ask, therefore, that at the same time as the Minister makes a statement or produces a White Paper, he should give some indication of his policy in regard to the construction of bridges and tunnels, and mention which particular rivers and lochs he has in view for bridging. I hope that the Minister will accept these two suggestions, and that the Parliamentary Secretary will perhaps comment upon them in his reply. The final point I would like to make is on that rather delicate subject, which cannot well be discussed tonight. I hope that the Minister will also make some statement on the question of Ferry Services.

8.36 p.m.

Like preceding speakers, I shall try to tread the narrow and dangerous path of speaking on the Third Reading without infringing the rules of Order which apply to this stage of the discussion. The point I wish to make is that before the war the Minister made a report each year on the administration of the Road Fund. That was a statutory obligation imposed on him by the Road Act, 1920, which stipulates, in Section 3 (6), that:

There is much work that ought to be done in connection with these trunk roads, and I submit that Parliament should have a full opportunity of learning through a report exactly what has been done. I am not asking for an expression of future policy. That, for reasons which were made clear in the Committee stage, is neither possible nor desirable. I suggest we should have a full opportunity of learning through a report exactly what is being done. In my mind, and this is a matter on which the Minister may be able to enlighten me, there is some doubt about whether the duty imposed by the Act of 1920 also extends to include the trunk road powers under the Trunk Roads Act, 1936, and under this Bill which is now under discussion. I know that it is argued that it is possible to obtain in the course of Questions or in the course of Debate a lot of information which Members may like to have. In my submission that is not a satisfactory substitute for a detailed annual report on the extra powers which the Minister is now to get as a result of this Bill. I hope that the Minister, in his reply, will be able to satisfy such Members as myself that the House will have an opportunity each year of knowing exactly what has been done and how the powers under this Bill have been exercised.

8.40 p.m.

I must claim the indulgence of the House for joining in its Debate for the first time, at this rather difficult period in the life of the Bill. One has to be careful and, I imagine, one has to be non-controversial and definitely wary as to what one can say and what one cannot say, at this stage. I had hoped earlier today to be able to speak on the Amendment that stood in the names of myself and other hon. Members in regard to the Schedule, but that Amendment was not called, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and, of course, we had to accept your Ruling with pleasure—somewhat modified. I would refer to the powers which the Minister has taken to himself, in regard to extending the trunk road system of the country. The indications are that trunk roads must be roads with a long continuous mileage, leading from one point to another, and, as an hon. and gallant Member on this side of the House said just now, there is no reason why a comparatively short length of road which terminates at the coast, should not be regarded as a trunk road.

In my county, the County Council of Surrey had hoped to have included in this Bill two roads which terminate on the South coast. There was no reason why either of those roads should not have been included in the Schedule, because already the road to Brighton, which is an exactly similar road, was included under the earlier Bill. I hope the Minister, when he comes to consider further the trunk road system of the country, will not rule out the possibility that short lengths of road such as I have mentioned, leading to the coast should also be considered. It is not only roads which bear a large amount of haulage traffic that should be considered as trunk roads, but roads which carry pleasure traffic at week-ends are equally important, not merely from the point of view of safety, but also with regard to surface construction. I hope the Minister will not rule out that road. I also hope that the East to West road which apparently at the present time cannot be considered, will ultimately find a place when the Minister considers future Measures.

I am sorry indeed that the Bill is so limited in character. As a member of a highways authority for many years, I should have liked to see a vastly extended system of trunk roads contemplated under the present Bill. I am quite sure, if the Minister takes the fullest advantage of the powers that he has under the Bill, extensions can be made. I also would like to support the hon. and gallant Member for Brixton (Lieut.-Colonel Lipton), because unless the House is acquainted at least yearly with this matter, it is likely the Minister may prove dilatory in many respects, and that he may not carry out the work which he should be doing. I trust I can compliment the Minister on an easy passage of the Bill, and that he will bear in mind the points I have made, so that the trunk road system in the country will receive, as it undoubtedly must receive, nationalisation, not merely from the point of view of the Opposition, but for the good of the country and the highways.

8.45 p.m.

It falls to my lot, with great humility as a new Member, to congratulate the last speaker on his admirably-expressed and excellent maiden speech. The hon. Member spoke with great confidence on a subject about which he obviously knows a great deal, and I sincerely envied him in his first effort, remembering my own rather halting effort on a similar occasion. We shall all hope to hear him very frequently in future.

There is only one small point, which has been raised before, to which I wish to refer, and I realise that in this I may be treading on thin ice, though I am referring to something actually in the Bill. It is the provision that the Minister shall keep under review the national system of routes for through traffic in Great Britain. The question of roads which go as far as the sea has been mentioned, not only in the case of Scotland but in England as well. I would like to ask about roads scheduled as trunk roads which go as far as a river, where there is a blank, and, on the other side, another scheduled trunk road which also goes as far as a river. Does the Minister consider, for instance, that the great River Forth and the equally great River Tay are matters for consideration in connection with through traffic routes on the roads? I submit very sincerely that that is so, and I hope, particularly, that he will not lose sight of it. On Second Reading, we got no satisfaction whatever from the right hon. Gentleman, and I hope he will keep the matter in mind and that, if he has to consider through traffic routes in Great Britain, these roads which go as far as a river will be considered in a fresh light altogether.

8.48 p.m.

May I seek your indulgence, Mr. Deputy-Speaker? I feel that the important part of the Bill is the provision that the Minister shall keep in review the national system of routes for through traffic. What kind of a review is in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman? Perhaps he will indicate on what scale and plan this review is to be carried out, for which he desires powers under this Bill? My second observation, equally brief and pertinent, is that, in the national system of routes for through traffic, he should bear in mind those roads in the country which, like the elephant's trunk, come to no point. The elephant's trunk does not go round and catch up with the tail. The type of road I have in mind is not only the short road, but the even wider and more extensive conception—the circular tour. I have in mind the kind of road which we have had for many years in Scotland, and which no doubt exists in England as well, running round the whole of the island—a strategic road round the whole coast-line, which would have many advantages—

The hon. Gentleman said he spoke with my indulgence. He is rather trespassing on it.

Your guidance, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, is profoundly valued. The through traffic I have in mind—

I thought my argument might have led me to join the waters of the Forth and the Tay, but I realise that that is a mistake.

8.50 p.m.

My difficulty in replying to the speeches made on the Third Reading Debate is that unless I am very careful I shall be pulled up by you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for being out of Order. I will, however, do my best to reply to the points made without incurring your displeasure. My hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. Logan) was so careful to wrap up his speech with words which intentionally disguised his real purpose that I was really not quite sure what he was talking about, particularly when he asked me to make some statement about certain "national institutions." However, I rather guessed his purpose, and the matter was more openly stated by the hon. Lady the Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mrs. Braddock). I very much regret appearing to be discourteous to my two hon. Friends, but it would be out of Order for me to make any statement on that matter at all except, possibly, to say that I recently received a deputation on the matter which they have in mind from the Corporations of Liverpool and Birkenhead. More than that I am unable to say.

Several hon. Members raised the question of what type of road the Minister will consider should be included in our Trunk Road system. The question has been asked, "What is a through road?" and "Should a road be included which carries largely pleasure traffic and not so much industrial traffic?" It is impossible for me to give any definition this evening of the type of road which the Minister will consider should form part of our Trunk Road system. During many stages of the Bill he gave his views, which I think coincide with those which exist in all parts of the House, of the type of road that would justify inclusion in our Trunk Road system. It must be a road of considerable importance to either the industries of the country, or to the people in carrying them to or from their work, or even to their recreation. But I cannot say which particular road, either in Scotland or the South of England, will be included. Every care will be taken to see that the balance is kept and that the most deserving road shall be given first priority.

One hon. Member asks whether I could define the careful review which the Minister promised he would keep on the road system of the country. I cannot do that, except to say he will carry out his review constantly, with his usual care and efficiency, and that if the House is dissatisfied with his actions they have ample opportunity at Question Time and on other occasions to tell him of their dissatisfaction. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for West Edinburgh (Lieut.-Commander Hutchison) asked whether my right hon. Friend would shortly be able to make some general statement of policy on his intentions in respect of this Bill. I may say perhaps—and keep within the bounds of Order—that the preparation of such a statement is under active consideration and that my right hon. Friend hopes to be able to make it before very long.

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Brixton (Lieut.-Colonel Lipton) raised the important question of how the House and the country were to be kept informed of the actions of my right hon. Friend in regard to this Bill, and how they were to be satisfied that he was doing all that the House wanted him to do. I think I can satisfy him on this score. During the war there have been inadequate reports about Road Fund expenditure. The hon. and gallant Gentleman may remember that before the war these reports were exceedingly extensive. In 1938–39 there were over nine and a half pages of detailed statement about Road Fund expenditure. We are reverting immediately to prewar practice in this respect, but with this difference. We intend that the report should be even fuller than it was in the past. With that in his hands, and with the right of raising any point of dissatisfaction which my hon. and gallant Friend may have on the Minister's estimates, I think he will agree that he and other hon. Members will have full opportunities to express their views about the Minister's trusteeship of the Road Fund and the way in which he is carrying out his responsibilities to Parliament.

I would like to congratulate the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Sidney Marshall) on making a maiden speech on a subject which I consider extraordinarily important, and on making such a very interesting contribution to our Debate. I am sure he will gather from what I have already said that it would be impossible for me to answer in detail his questions, much as I would like to, but in future he will have plenty of opportunity, at Question time and on other occasions, for pursuing his points. With regard to the questions which have been raised by some Scotch Members, whom you, Sir, have tried hard to keep in order when fishing about the prospects of grants for the Forth Road Bridge, I regret I can say nothing, partly because what could be said was said on the Second Reading, and further, if I said anything more I would be ruled out of Order. I think I have answered, so far as I can, most of the points which have been made.

Now that we have reached the final stage of this Bill, so far as this House is concerned, I think it is intriguing to recall for a moment or two that in making this further important advance towards a national highway system, we are, in fact, returning to a system in operation in this country 1,500 years ago. The Romans during their period of occupation built and maintained, largely for strategic reasons, a series of national roads under the responsibility of a central authority. Because the responsibility was a central one the planning of those highways was excellent, their standard of construction uniform, and their maintenance, as far as we can tell, was admirable. Now, today, after all these years, by general agreement we are developing a road policy based on identical principles. This, I suggest, is an interesting commentary on social progress, on which, however, I am not prepared to moralise.

During the intervening centuries—until in fact, about 100 years ago—the maintenance of our roads depended mainly on the whim of those landlords whose property bordered the roads. The law laid it down that once a year every commoner had to give six days of forced labour to help repair the roads in his district, but this work, not unnaturally, was rarely carried out with much ardour, and not unnaturally also, the employers normally directed this very meagre labour supply to work only on the roads leading to their own estates and farms. Consequently, the main highways had little if anything done to them, and they remained in an appalling condition—a severe discouragement to all forms of travel and a real danger to anyone bold enough to venture on them. Indeed; it appears that the only time any serious work was done on them was prior to a journey by the King and his court, when the whole district, to avoid Royal displeasure and heavy fines, turned out to patch up the highway.

During this long period of neglect the only other important source of upkeep of our roads was the Church, which regarded the welfare of travellers as one of its functions, and consequently maintained certain roads and saw that bridges were built. Men could receive special religious indulgence and dispensation as a reward and—

On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was called to Order for discussing a matter irrelevant to this Bill—the Forth Road Bridge. The right hon. Gentleman who is replying seems to be dealing with matters which, in my humble judgment, are wildly irrelevant.

I think the Minister is indulging in a short peroration.

I thought the House might be interested, for a moment or two, in some of the historical background to the present Bill which develops a national system of highways. My point was that in a curious way we are reverting to the system of highways which we had in this country during the Roman occupation. I have nearly finished. All I want to say further—and it was all I had intended to say—is that it was only after a long period of mismanagement and neglect of our roads arising from the fact that they were in the hands of local people, often irresponsible, that we reverted to the now generally accepted principle of national responsibility for our main highways when the parent Bill of this present Measure was introduced in 1936. That Act, although revolutionary—if one can call anything revolutionary that returns to a practice in operation 1,500 years previously—was in many ways timid and defective. These defects, we believe, are now remedied in this Bill and I am confident that it will be passed by the House in a few minutes. Under this Bill the Government will have the power, with proper safeguards for objections, to take over any road in the country as a national responsibility. No longer will our main highways be dependent on the whim of any local interests. The responsibility will be squarely the Government's and if they falter in their duty Parliament will no doubt demand the blood of the Minister of Transport of the day.

My right hon. Friend is determined to render our trunk roads as good as any in the world and he will do so as quickly as possible within the present limitations of labour and material. The House, knowing the present tremendous arrears of maintenance work to be overcome on existing roads and the urgency of making improvements which will render our roads safer and, further, the demand for labour and materials in other directions with an A.1 priority will, I am sure, not expect to see our trunk road system perfected in a few months, or even a few years. We are, however, confident that with the powers now granted to us in this Bill and with the support of Parliament we will be able in time to do all that is physically possible to make our British highways of such a standard that they will not only efficiently serve our industries, but will be a source of pride to all who use them.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

Building Material Supplies

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Mathers. ]

9.4 p.m.

I wish to raise the question of building material supplies. In so doing, it is not my intention to suggest any condemnation of the Minister of Works. I am raising this matter so that the problems involved can be aired and properly ventilated, with a view to the difficulties being eliminated. I feel that even if there is inefficiency in the Ministry at the present time my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will not wish to condone that inefficiency or cover it up. If we face squarely up to the problems as they present themselves, we shall expedite the huge building and housing programme which is being carried out by the Government. During the Recess I took the opportunity to investigate very thoroughly some of the complaints that were being brought to my attention, and to consult very carefully with a number of architects and with those engaged in the building industry as merchants, directors and as workmen. I took the opportunity of getting as wide and as authoritative a view on the difficulties as I could, and there seems to be a consensus of opinion that the difficulties presenting themselves are composed mainly of the inefficiency to which I have referred. Bureaucratic red tape is to some extent strangling the housing programme—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear"]—I am glad to hear that that remark meets with a certain amount of approval from the other side of the House, particularly in view of the remark that I now wish to make.

This problem is deep rooted, and I well remember one incident just after the Election results were announced. The then mayor of my constituency, after congratulating me on the result, although he was not a Labour man, implored me to do something to bring the Government's attention to the difficulties created by the Ministry of Works. He referred to delays which he considered to be unjustified, to general inefficiency—he found it difficult to get replies from the Ministry to his letters and so forth—and although a Conservative he did not, indeed he obviously could not, blame this Government. As I suggested, the trouble is deep-rooted, and goes back to the earlier stages when the Department was expanding during the war. There are, without any doubt, people "in that Department who are not really conversant with their jobs, and they are big jobs of some responsibility too. Therefore, I implore the Minister to take determined steps—to act ruthlessly if necessary—to eliminate those who are redundant in his Department, to make his Department efficient, and thereby set a standard in the running of Departments. In that way he will earn the respect of this House.

I would like to illustrate my accusation by one particular incident, the handling of which I think leaves little doubt as to the cause of the troubles to which I have referred. I take the example of some 2,500 Swedish type wooden houses which have been ordered to be delivered to this country. On the evidence as I see it, it seems that those who were sent on the mission to purchase the houses could not have been really cognisant of the task they were intended to carry out. In the first instance, two designs of house were ordered. Both designs were for a north-facing aspect. That means that anybody using those houses would have to put them down all facing the same way, unless they reversed them and by so doing brought the larder, the place where food will be stored, into the direct rays of the summer sunshine, which would obviously make it difficult for the people living in the house to keep food properly.

I now refer to the procedure that was laid down by the Ministry of Works. First of all, the houses were offered to local authorities in the summer of last year for delivery between September, 1945, and January, 1946. As soon as the applications were received, the applicants were inundated with a whole mass of literature—papers, plans, drawings and so forth, with a great amount of unnecessary details. If those who were sent on the purchasing mission had really known their job, they would not have obtained all this unnecessary information. Many of the drawings were printed on transparent linen so that they could be reproduced locally, yet the one thing of which most architects would require many copies was the general working drawings; these were printed only on paper, making difficult the reproductions required. In addition, an elaborate manual of erection was printed, with many details, largely unnecessary. Nothing suitable was obtained which could be sent by local authorities to contractors when they invited them to tender. All this work had to be done by the local authorities themselves, in the first instance, and it was not until January of this year that the Ministry sent along details, which would have saved an enormous amount of trouble had they been available in the first instance. The point I make in giving this illustration is simply that those who handled this particular job, had they been working for some organisation which had to show a profit or keep some check on efficiency, would, I am sure, not have retained their posts. The particular local authority requiring these is in the North Riding of Yorkshire, and they are still awaiting their 18 houses, of which they were promised delivery in January. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will give me some news of those houses.

I should now like to take one or two items in particular, and I refer, first of all, to the question of bricks. I am informed that in the North of England there is at the present time what might be called a brick famine. I obtained my information from a number of brickyards, and, in particular, from Messrs. Wray and Sons, York Facing Bricks and the York and Acomb Brick Works. I take these firms because they have already shown considerable energy in endeavouring to remove the obstructions they have found. They have taken the opportunity of approaching several Ministers, and have also approached several hon. Members of this House, with a view to bringing their case forward for urgent consideration. Their licence, which had been cancelled during wartime, to manufacture bricks was renewed in September, 1945. At one of these yards before the war there were 70 men employed; now they have only five. The other brickyard before the war had 30 men; a month ago there were eight, and now they have II. They have been able to obtain only three extra brick makers as a result of their representations. Under the Class B Scheme, we have heard that many bricklayers have been brought out of the Forces by priority, because it is work of national importance on which they will be engaged. I should like to know from my hon. Friend if some real priority is also being given to brick makers, because until the bricks are made, the bricklayers themselves are largely redundant. I am informed that in the North of England some 75 per cent. of the brickyards that were operating before the war are not in production at all at the present time, and that the remaining 25 per cent. are only on some 17 per cent. production.

In passing, I would stress one point to the Parliamentary Secretary: Can he give special consideration to the various local manufacturers of bricks? I do feel it is essential to encourage the use, as far as we possibly can, of local materials, because if we do not we shall tend to make the whole country look so much the same. When, for instance, you have a large firm like London Brick and Forders, Ltd., distributing bricks at a cheap rate all over the country, it tends to make a sameness in the buildings that are put up. I think that it is a very great shame to spoil the countryside in that way.

It being a Quarter past Nine o'Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Simmons. ]

Relative to the same point is the question of distribution. If we make use of the local manufacturers of bricks and other building materials it will prevent the railways and roads from being cluttered up with the delivery of materials which would otherwise be taken over unnecessarily long distances. It will tend, to some extent, also to save delays and costs of delivery.

I wish also to deal with the question of plaster boards and cement. These two items are of tremendous importance to building at the present time, because they are in such short supply, and they are almost entirely in the hands of two monopoly combines. In the case of plaster board, it is very largely manufactured by I.C.I., British Plaster Boards and one other firm. In the case of cement, the three main manufacturing firms are Cement Marketing, including Earls Cement, Blue Circle and Red Triangle; the Cement Manufacturers' Association; and I.C.I. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he would give me information as to why, in the latter part of last year, these cement combines found it necessary to raise their prices by 5s. In so far as building materials are concerned, the Building Materials and Housing Bill gives power to the Minister of Works, if necessary, under Clause 1 to undertake or to obtain necessary funds for

The next item with which I wish to deal is that of timber. Timber has during the war come under the Timber Control. I understand that the people who worked the Timber Control were the people who were actually in the timber trade before the war. I want to be satisfied, therefore, that the Timber Control is working in the national interest and is not just working to maintain its particular position in the industry. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary has investigated this matter, because many questions are being asked regarding the activities of this particular body, which has, or may well have, a stranglehold on the supply of this very essential material. I would also like to know the extent to which timber is being obtained from Empire sources—from West Africa, East Africa, Canada and the West Indies—and whether it could be obtained at more advantageous prices than it could be obtained from the Scandinavian countries. I would also like to know the comparisons between the sources of supply, the costs and the rapidity with which timber can be delivered to this country. Timber is practically the only item in our building programme that has to be obtained from overseas. All our bricks, cement, light castings, plaster boards and so forth can be manufactured as a home product. If we wish to conserve our foreign exchange, is it not possible to obtain supplies of timber from Germany, perhaps as part of reparations?

Regarding delays, I will quote certain periods of delays for deliveries of various items. I am told, for instance, that for floor tiles there is a delay of eight to 12 months; glazed tiles 17 months, sinks eight to nine months, sanitary fittings I am told in some cases two years; w.c's. 13–18 months, asbestos 24–32 weeks, and in addition to that permits are required. Many local authorities are receiving from the Ministry of Health regularly circulars urging them to let contracts, but then when the local authorities do let contracts, the local authorities are confronted with these difficulties and delays. There are many causes for these delays which are obvious, and the first, of course, is bureaucracy, and the red tape procedure of forms. I do know some control is absolutely essential.

The only point I make in raising it is this: Would the Minister make quite sure that such forms as are asked for are made full use of, and every single one is designed in a way to make their filling in as rapid and simple as possible, and review the whole matter, seeing if some of this procedure cannot be revised? I give one example in this respect. It applies to plaster board. Local authorities issued, in the first instance, the permits on application of the builder. The builder takes the form after he has filled it in, to the merchants, the merchants to the manufacturers, the manufacturers to an Allocation Committee, and at the end of all that they may get only part of their order. If it is not possible to make an issue to complete a number of houses which have been begun, the completion of those houses is prevented. Would it not be better to allocate to complete a series of houses so that the work can in point of fact be fully finished off?

The next cause of delay is what seems to be the very insidious system which was devised, not by this Minister, but by previous Ministers who were appointed by the Coalition Government, of the Managing Contractors Organisation for stocking building materials, particularly for temporary houses, in various parts of the country, and placed in charge of those were big firms of contractors who managed these depots with a management fee, and, as far as I can tell, without a great deal of responsibility towards the safe keeping of the materials under their control. I am told, for example, that breakages in some cases are definitely excessive, and I am also told that losses of one item particularly of 10,000 taps, necessitating the placing of further orders by the Ministry for these deficits to be made good.

There are also large quantities of building materials going for export, and I would ask the Minister to make some specific plan so that the manufacturers can definitely work to it and the builders' merchants can then expect a definite part of the production of essential fittings. I am informed, for instance, that lavatory basins are being ordered at the rate of 1,000 a week for temporary houses and yet I believe that is only some one-fortieth part of the total production that is possible; in some cases although 1,000 a week is actually on order, only some 250 a week are being delivered. I do feel that if we could use temporary materials such as galvanised sinks for temporary houses, it would free the permanent fittings for the permanent housing programme.

One illustration now on the question of price regulations, because this does seem to me a specific example which can be quoted: electric cookers are being produced through the British Engineering Allied Manufacturers' Association. The price paid by the Departments after allowing for a reasonable profit comes out at £11 10s., and yet in point of fact they are asking the Ministry the sum of £15, which was the price quoted for bulk purchase two months ago.

In conclusion, the whole reason for bringing up this matter is this: we can pass in this House excellent laws, but unless the organisation for implementing those laws is efficient and will produce rapid results, which means that unless the Executive is efficient, those excellent laws will come to nought.

9.26 p.m.

I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for raising this subject tonight. He has covered a wide field, and I do not think it is possible to reply to all his points in the short time left at my disposal. I am glad, however, that he has given the Government an opportunity to make a statement on this important question of the supply and distribution of building materials in relation to the development of the housing drive.

I want to be quite frank with the House. The supply position in connection with certain building materials is extremely serious, and is giving us a lot of trouble. I would like to state what the position is, and what we are doing about it. I hope to show that we have, in the few months since we have been in office, made great improvements both in the production and distribution in materials and components, although I should be deceiving the House if I pretended that either the volume of production or our control over distribution was adequate to the needs of this year's building programme. The instrument we required for our policy—the Building Materials and Housing Act—has been in our hands for barely a month and, further, it has taken months of very hard work to make up for the years which the locusts ate before we took office. We started last August completely from scratch, from a building materials position that was absolutely unplanned and, except in the matter of the price of certain materials, uncontrolled. So far from being a military operation as we were told it bore all the marks of the period of the so-called "phoney" war.

My hon. and gallant Friend raised the question of Swedish houses, into which I cannot enter into detail tonight. Most of his complaints related to the period before we took over. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Well, my hon. and gallant Friend referred to the mission which went to Sweden, and which returned long before my right hon. Friend went to the Ministry of Works. The first step taken by my right hon. Friend was to set up a programming organisation to draw up, on the lines of the wartime mobilisation and munitions plan, a national building programme, which was to cover not only the housing effort, but also all the other essential building schemes, as well as war damage and the necessary repairs and maintenance. This programme, which covers manpower as well as materials, is the master plan to which we are working, and is also the basis for our bulk orders for components. As the executive arm for carrying out this plan—I do not want to go into the question of the personnel of the Ministry of Works, except to say that it is a very different place now from what it was in August—my right hon. Friend appointed a Director-General of Building Materials, and the Minister of Supply appointed a Director-General of Housing Supplies. They were two high-powered executives, who have brought to the housing effort the qualities and drive which they displayed in other fields, particularly aircraft production, during the time.

Therefore, the first task is to deal with the shortages which have already developed, some of which might be expected to become worse as the housing drive gets under way. War damage repair and the temporary house programme have already thrown up abnormally heavy requirements for such things as slates, asbestos, cement, plasterboard, plate glass, and also certain builders' castings. War damage repairs alone are taking very much more plasterboard and slates than were normally produced before the war. Of course, the production of some products of the engineering industries, such as gas and electric cookers, is only now beginning to climb from the very low level which concentration on munitions production in war time had caused.

As my hon. and gallant Friend mentioned, there are somewhat ominous signs of a brick shortage in certain districts. I think the word "famine," if meant to apply to anything generally, is certainly too strong a word to apply in this connection, but I would like to give the House a few figures about the bricks position. There are in stock at the present time just under 1,000 million bricks, which is equivalent to rather less than seven weeks' supply at prewar rates of use and about four months' supply at present rate of use. But this global total is, of course, very unevenly distributed; and transport difficulties, and perhaps an undue attachment on the part of certain users to existing trade channels and particular sources of supply, have caused local shortages. Improvements in transport, which we have been going into, including a lifting of transport restrictions, which is about to take place, and also more controlled planning of distribution, which is now in hand, will go far to remove these purely local difficulties. But the general problem of raising the total volume of brick production, which is now only about one-fifth of the prewar rate, will continue to occupy the very closest attention of the Government.

It is our policy to get all the brickworks all over the country back into production as quickly as possible, and not merely to swamp every district with bricks of one kind from one area. Of the 1,362 works in the country before the war, 458 are now operating. These are, on the whole, the bigger works, and when going at full blast they represent about two-thirds of the prewar productive capacity of the industry. A further 300 have been licensed to re-open and are being helped back into production at the present time. The remainder are mostly used for storage and are being de-requisitioned and cleared as quickly as possible. The failure to plan the re-opening earlier has led to a position where most of the re-opening is now taking place in winter, which is the worst possible time to re-open a brickworks, and bad weather has therefore added to our difficulties. However, we are going ahead fast.

Our fundamental problem is manpower, not only for bricks, but for practically every one of the critical building materials industries. These industries in general are in a very special difficulty as regards recruiting manpower. For one thing, they were not, for the most part, war industries. They lost their labour force in war time and now have to start, in these very difficult times, recruiting it all over again from scratch, which is a very formidable task. In the brick industry, for example, there are at present about 19,000 workers in the works so far opened. These same works need approximately another 19,000 workers to get them up to full production, while the remaining works which are not yet opened, or which are in course of being opened, will require yet a further 19,000.

Is it not a fact that they require a certain proportion of skilled brick-makers? If those brick-makers who are now in the Forces were released and sent back to the brickfields, would there not be a substantial increase in the quantity of bricks produced?

I am coming to that point. The figures I have given show that we need a total of 38,000 men in the brick industry, and of course, the immediate problem is to get men with skill and experience of the industry back to their old jobs. To meet the needs of this industry and the other building materials industries, a number of things are being done. The industries have been given a high priority in Class B releases. They were allocated originally a total of 10,000. That total has been raised recently to 21,000. Building materials firms were asked during the Autumn to nominate all their ex-employees in the Armed Forces who were required for restarting and for building up production, and in all some 10,000 names were received. Of these 4,400 men had come out up to the end of December; very many more have come out since, or are on their way home at the present time In addition to this, a number of ex-building material workers, transferred to other industries during the war, have been brought back while, as I think is generally known, the Ministry of Labour have carried out a big publicity campaign to attract workers to these industries. By this and other means the manpower of these industries is being built up. In the last week for which we have figures, about 600 workers entered the building materials industries proper, in addition to a substantial number in the building components industries. Nevertheless, to be quite frank, the number entering these industries is still far short of our requirements. This is the fundamental problem in the building materials industries today I think we should be quite frank about it, and state that these industries have not been regarded in the past as attractive to work in. Like the coal industry and a number of other basic industries, they seem to have been capable of maintaining a full labour force only during times of mass unemployment. In conditions of full employment and, more particularly, shortage of labour, they have not of themselves been sufficiently attractive to workers who might have gone into them, particularly when one remembers the low wages paid.

Could the hon. Gentleman give some facts and figures to support that statement? At the time of the greatest amount of house building in this country between the wars there were ample people in the industry.

Yes, as I said, that could only be done during periods of mass unemployment. During the whole of the period to which the right hon. and Noble Lord referred there was mass unemployment in this country. I refer the Noble Lord to the figures which are on record.

Going back to the question of working conditions, of course much of the work has got to be done out of doors and, on technical grounds, the conditions have in the past been far from pleasant. At the same time, a very great responsibility rests on the industries themselves for the unattractiveness of the working conditions. While the best works in many of these industries are very, very good, the worst have been—very much less good. There has been far too much difference between the best works and the worst in the matter of working conditions and the Government is giving very careful attention to this matter. The building materials industries generally seem to have been by-passed by the improvement in welfare conditions which occurred in so many of the war industries under the guidance and direction of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary when he was at the Ministry of Labour. At a time when we are appealing for men—and women—to enter the building materials industries in order to make their contribution to the housing and happiness of their fellow citizens, we consider it necessary to do everything possible to bring the working conditions in these industries to the highest possible level and to modernise them to the fullest possible extent, both to get the maximum production per man employed and also to remove some of the unsatisfactory working conditions which result from Victorian and, in fact pre-Victorian methods of production.

My right hon. Friend is therefore arranging for the more critical of these industries to be urgently surveyed from these two points of view. He is beginning with the brick industry and proposes to appoint a Committee of Inquiry into working conditions immediately. He has also already set up a working party to deal with technical subjects of efficiency and modernisation.

Further inquiries and working parties are being arranged for in the other industries concerned. [ Interruption. ] I might inform hon. Gentlemen opposite that in the very short time we have had it has been rather tough on us. We have got to meet not only the problems arising out of the war but problems arising out of about 20 years of their own inefficiency.

When we get these working conditions straight, we can no doubt appeal with confidence for the thousands of workers we want because we can give them an assurance of a new deal in these industries. So far I have been dealing particularly with materials. There is also the important field of components for the housing drive and other essential building. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply has gone in a big way into the matter of organising the components industries on wartime lines. The House will be aware that he is already in negotiation with a number of the industries concerned, for production agreements and blanket orders giving long runs of production on standardised products, and that he is already placing orders with his own Royal Ordnance factories. A scheme has been drawn up for applying blanket orders far long run production for standard electric and gas cookers, baths and steel sinks and draining boards and will be extended to a large range of other products, including cast iron goods. These measures are designed to control prices and secure economy, no less surely than to increase production.

May I ask my hon. Friend if he will see that the design of these standardised items is of a high order? We need to improve industrial design in this country a great deal. Will he see that that is done?

We entirely agree with that statement, and I can tell my hon. and gallant Friend that the matter is being very carefully looked after. My hon. and gallant Friend referred to the question of cement prices. There is now a committee of inquiry appointed to go into the whole question of prices, a committee which has been long overdue. As for the rings to which he referred, I wish there were more time to deal with that subject. When I got to the Ministry I asked for a complete list of all the components going into house building, and to have those marked with an asterisk if they were covered by a price-fixing trade association. The staff complained that it would be much easier to apply the asterisk to those which were not so controlled. As to what is being done in respect of rings, I cannot go into that matter at the moment, but I would mention that last week a very tough line was taken with one ring which was interfering with a particular line of priority building. These are matters which are still the subject of negotiation, and I do not want to go into them at the moment. We are seeking to ease the position—

We are dealing with this matter by substituting alternative products for those which are still in short supply. There is in hand a big development of precast concrete blocks and other so-called prefabricated units, and this will help to relieve local difficulties of brick supply in certain areas. Pressed steel and other fabricated products are being used in substitution for iron castings. One good example of this is the pressed steel bath which has been developed as a means of supplementing the more traditional cast-iron baths. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply and Aircraft Production is placing a long run order for 50,000 of these pressed steel baths. The scientific departments are developing new products and industries which promise not only to relieve home needs but to create new export industries in this country.

Now I would like to come to the question of distribution. Having had some experience of war-time controls of the distribution of materials, I was appalled at the absence of control in building materials up to the time this Government assumed responsibility. With the exception of the highly organised, and I think very efficient, control of materials in blitzed areas at that time, the whole matter was left completely in a laissez faire condition. No attempt was made to give priority to housing or other essential building, and there were no arrangements to prevent any distributor who could get the materials from building up excessive stocks, or even from cornering a large part of the supply and thus immobilising critical materials. Apart from the blitzed areas to which I have referred, there were not even any arrangements for finding out deliveries and stocks held, so that the Government could step in and secure better distribution or arrange with a particular builder who was in danger of stopping work to have stocks made available to him from some builder's merchant other than the one with whom he normally dealt.

Measures to secure the necessary control of distribution are now in hand. We have been having discussions with the builders' merchants, who are being very helpful in this matter. A greatly improved system of priority of distribution is being worked out, and priorities will shortly be instituted so that shortage due to maldistribution can be reduced to an absolute minimum in order that the housing drive may progress at the rate we all desire to see.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Sixteen Minutes to Ten o'Clock.