House of Commons
Monday, January 28, 1946
The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]
Trade and Navigation
Accounts ordered
"relating to Trade and Navigation of the United Kingdom for each month during the year 1946."—[ Sir S. Cripps. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Overseas Trade Department (Foreign Service)
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if he will state the number of officials employed by his Department overseas who are paid £800 per annum or over; the standard of foreign language proficiency these officials are normally required to possess; and the number actually attaining this standard at the present time.
I assume that the hon. and gallant Member has in mind officers serving in foreign, as distinct from Empire, countries. These officers, as commercial diplomats, are members of H.M. Foreign Service and are required to possess the same proficiency in foreign languages as other members of that service. The number of such officers in receipt of salary of £800 or more is 39 and all of them have knowledge of one or more foreign languages.
Could the right hon. Gentleman say that they all have knowledge up to the required standard of the language of the country in which they are resident?
I could not say that, but they all have the required knowledge in the foreign language up to the standard of the Foreign Service.
India
Forces Mail
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that mail from this country addressed to personnel of the 6th Infantry Brigade in Visapur, India, has been greatly delayed; and whether he will ensure that unnecessary delays are eliminated so that mail, including that re-directed because of a change of station not known to home correspondents, reaches its destination in a reasonable time.
I am not aware of delay in the delivery of mail to personnel of the 6th Infantry Brigade in Visapur. If the hon. and gallant Member will furnish me with details, I will gladly make inquiries of the Government of India. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that the necessity for eliminating unnecessary delays in the delivery of mail is fully appreciated by the civil and military authorities in India who have the matter constantly under review.
Gurkha Brigade
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India what safeguards are to be offered to the British officers and Gurkha officers, and other ranks of the Gurkha Brigade, under the new proposals for the Indianisation of the Army in India.
This question is bound up with the future constitutional changes in India. The particular points raised by the hon. and gallant Member are, however, already under careful, consideration in connection with planning for the future organisation of the Army in India. I regret I am not in a position to say more than that.
"National Congress"
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India why the weekly newspaper, "National Congress," Urdu, formerly published in the Punjab, has not been allowed to resume publication.
Permission to resume publication of this newspaper which suspended publication in August, 1942, was refused on account of the newsprint supply position. This has now deteriorated to such an extent that the Government of India have decided not to allow the publication of additional newspapers of any kind. This decision will, of course, be reconsidered when the supply position improves.
Did this newspaper not have a quota before its suppression and why is it not allowed to assume a proportion of that quota at present?
Immediately a paper ceases to publish it loses its quota and the paper would be used by some other publishing concern. The Government of India today have to look at the position in the light of the present supply which is limited.
Does the hon. and learned Gentleman really mean what he has just said, that if a newspaper is suppressed or suspended its quota goes to somebody else? Is not such a suggestion likely to cause disquiet as indicating a connection between what should be a supply control and a censorship, which should be separate?
I have no doubt that any paper which became available as a result of this paper ceasing to be published would be used by the Government of India for some other purpose.
The hon. and learned Gentleman said "Some other newspaper;" that is quite different.
"National Herald"
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India why, on 10th December, security was levied against the daily newspaper, "National Herald"; what other action has been taken against this newspaper; and for what reasons such action has been taken.
Inquiries are being made in regard to this matter and I will communicate with my hon. Friend when further information is received.
Press Agents, Malaya (Reports)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will arrange to make available to this House any reports submitted to the Government of India by its Press agents in Malaya.
So far as I am aware the Government of India have no Press agent in Malaya, but I will make inquiries.
Burma
General Election
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma, if he will now state what the basis of the franchise is to be at the forthcoming general election in Burma; and how soon he expects to be able to lay proposals before the House.
I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply to his Question on this subject on 10th December. The basis of the franchise is still under investigation in Burma by a special franchise committee of Burman members of the Governor's Executive Council. As my hon. Friend is aware, this is a matter of such complexity and I fear it will be some little time yet before proposals can be laid before Parliament, but all possible steps are being taken to expedite the matter.
Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that he has said before that these elections are a matter of urgency? It will cause great disappointment in Burma if it is a long time before they are held.
I would like to reiterate the statement I have made, that His Majesty's Government regard this matter as one of urgency, but we have to have regard to abnormal conditions which do exist following three years of enemy occupation.
All-India Service (Premature Retirements)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma when, in view of the appointment by the Governor of Burma of an Executive Council, officers of the All-India Service, to whom the Premature Retirement Rules, 1937, apply, will be allowed to take advantage of them.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma, in view of the fact that H.E. the Governor of Burma has appointed an Executive Council almost entirely composed of Burmese gentlemen and allotted portfolios to them and thereby virtually reintroduced ministerial government in Burma, when officers to whom the Premature Retirement Rules, 1937, apply will be allowed to take advantage of those rules and will no longer be held as being ineligible under proviso ( b ) to Clause (1) of Rule 2 of the rules.
The Governor of Burma, under the White Paper, administers all Departments of the Government in his discretion notwithstanding the appointment of an Executive Council. Under the Rules governing premature retirement, officers serving in Departments so administered are not generally eligible but they may under an amendment to the Rules made in 1943 be permitted to retire in exceptional circumstances. In the present difficult manpower situation my Noble Friend is not prepared to enter into any general commitment as to the treatment which will be accorded to applications for permission to retire. Each application must continue for the present to be considered on its merits in consultation with the Government of Burma.
Does not this mean virtually the conscription of the civil servants? In view of the fact that it was introduced in 1945 and it was said that it would only be for the emergency, and as war with Japan is over and there has been resumption of civil government, is there any justification for this Rule?
I think the hon. Member will agree that it cannot be said that the emergency is over. There is a very difficult manpower problem in Burma at the present time, and this Rule is retained with great reluctance, but we have to face that problem.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma if he will give an assurance that officers of the All-India Services, who elected to serve on in Burma after its separation from India, will not receive any less generous treatment than their fellow officers in India.
The hon. Member may rest assured that it is the intention of my Noble Friend that those officers who had been appointed by the Secretary of State and who elected to serve on in Burma after separation shall receive no less generous treatment in regard to service conditions generally than their fellow officers in India.
Hungary
Medical and Sanitary Aid
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if arrangements can be made to send a medical mission to Hungary in order to fight venereal disease.
As I am informing the hon. Member in reply to another Question, U.N.R.R.A. will shortly be sending medical aid to Hungary. I am confident that the medical services thus supplied will do their utmost to combat whatever disease or diseases they may find to be prevalent in the country.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that answer will give great satisfaction?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action is being taken through U.N.R.R.A. so that starvation in Hungary before the end of January can be avoided.
I am glad to inform the hon. Member that the Central Committee of U.N.R.R.A. has recently authorised the expenditure of £1,000,000 sterling on a programme of help to Hungary. The programme includes medical and sanitary aid and supplies, and emergency relief supplies for children and for nursing and expectant mothers. I understand that U.N.R.R.A. is acting with the utmost despatch, but I am afraid that the supplies are unlikely to arrive this month.
Is the Minister aware that there is a certain amount of food in Hungary, but the difficulty is the transport? If he could possibly get some extra lorries there soon, it would materially help the situation.
Yes, I am afraid that is true of the whole Continent. We are doing our best to improve the whole transport situation.
Is the Minister aware that the need is to expedite these supplies and that everything should be done to bring down the great mortality rate, particularly among children, of whom I understand only one in every four are born alive?
Yes, had U.N.R.R.A. received earlier authorisation, the supplies would have arrived sooner. I think they are doing their best.
British and Russian Troops
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can state the numbers of British and Russian troops in Hungary.
There are no British troops in Hungary, except the British Military Mission, which numbers about 60 officers and men. I regret that I have no information to give my hon. Friend about the strength of the Soviet forces.
Admiral Horthy
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on what grounds Admiral Horthy was recently released from custody in Germany.
I have no official information about the release of Admiral Horthy, but I am making inquiries and I will write to my hon Friend when a report has been received.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind when he considers the information which he receives, that, under Admiral Horthy's rule, the country joined the Axis in 1939 and undertook the persecution of anti-Axis politicians and also of racial minorities in the country?
Yes, I will bear all that in mind; I am aware of it.
Questions
Bornholm (Russian Occupation)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the continued occupation by Russian forces of the Danish Island of Bornholm; and whether he proposes to make representations to the Government of the U.S.S.R. with a view to the speedy evacuation of this Danish territory.
Yes, Sir, my right hon. Friend is aware that Soviet forces are still on the Danish Island of Bornholm. He considers that the question of their departure is a matter for direct settlement between the Governments of Denmark and of the Soviet Union.
Is the Minister aware that there is acute distress not merely in Denmark but in every Scandinavian country with regard to this violation of Danish neutrality, and is it not so urgent that the right hon. Gentleman should bring it before the Security Council of the United Nations Organisation?
If either the Soviet Union or Denmark had asked for our help or advice in any regard we should have been very glad to give it. I think we may safely trust the Danish Government to do what they think right.
Will the Minister bear in mind that if it had not been for the Russian troops there would be a lot of German troops still occupying the whole of Denmark?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the immense strategic importance of the Island of Bornholm and that the continued presence of the Forces of a foreign Power in Bornholm must be a threat to peace, and will some action be taken?
No relevant consideration will escape our attention.
Is not the last answer but one of the right hon. Gentleman rendered irrelevant by Russian action with regard to Indonesia and Greece?
Outer Mongolia (Plebiscite)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the plebiscite in Outer Mongolia on the question of the future status of this territory provided for in the Sino-Soviet Treaty of 1945 has yet taken place.
Yes, Sir. The Soviet Press announced that the plebiscite in Outer Mongolia was held on 20th October last. It further reported that 487,409 persons had taken part, and that all of them voted for the independence of Outer Mongolia.
French Indo-China (British Forces)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the withdrawal of British forces from French Indo-China and on the casualties so far suffered by British, Indian, Allied and Annamese personnel during the operations there; and if he will give an assurance that before the British forces were withdrawn guarantees of the future independence of these territories were given by the French Government.
As my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for War, said in answer to a Question on 24th January, two brigades and the divisional headquarters will have been withdrawn from Indo-China by 31st January; the third and last brigade will be withdrawn within the next few weeks. Allied casualties during the period from mid-October, when the truce was broken, up to 13th January, were 126 killed and 424 wounded. Of the killed, 3 were British and 37 were Indian. I have no precise information about the casualties suffered by the Annamites and Tonkinese who have opposed our troops; it has been estimated that about 2,700 have been killed. British troops went to Indo-China after the surrender of Japan. They have been engaged on a purely military task, and their presence has had nothing to do with the political or constitutional problems of the country.
But will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that part of their directive was to maintain law and order until the French Civil Government could return, and is he aware that the previous French administration there was extremely oppressive and corrupt, and 95 per cent. pro-Vichy?
Perhaps my hon. Friend has seen the declaration made by the French Government on 24th March—before Japan surrendered. He will see it does promise a great political advance and an internal system founded on freedom of speech and liberty.
Spain (British Attitude)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that no Great Power and no European Power except Britain has an ambassador to Spain in Madrid; and whether he will recall the British ambassador to Spain.
The policy of His Majesty's Government towards Spain has already been made clear in statements made by my right hon. Friend on 23rd January and 5th December. From that policy the Government have not departed and I have therefore nothing to add.
Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it would be most unfortunate if Britain, having the longest record of fighting against Fascist Germany, should then continue to have the longest record of representation by an ambassador in Fascist Spain?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will remember what my right hon. Friend said last week, that His Majesty's Government have on all relevant occasions expressed their dislike of the present regime which abetted our enemies and have forcefully enunciated their anxiety that the present regime should be superseded by a regime popularly supported by the Spanish people themselves.
Will the right hon. Gentleman also bear in mind that for quite a considerable period between the wars, we were the only one of the present great Powers that had an ambassador in Moscow?
Austria
Government (Recognition)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the contributions made by the Austrian people towards their own liberation and their endeavours to rid themselves of Nazi influences, His Majesty's Government regards Austria as a liberated country within the terms of the Moscow Declaration of 1st November, 1943.
On 5th January the British Military Commissioner in Austria informed the Austrian Federal Chancellor that His Majesty's Government had decided to recognise Austria as a State, and to recognise the present Government as the de jure Government of that State. The Military Commissioner added that this recognition in no way affected the control exercised over Austria by the Allied Council; that control would be maintained in its present form until a new Agreement could be made by the Governments of the four occupying Powers. His Majesty's Government regard this act of recognition as an important step towards the fulfilment of the Moscow Declaration of 1943; they hope that the control exercised by the occupying Powers may be progressively relaxed until Austria is once more a free and equal member of the comity of nations.
Is the Minister aware that he has not really answered my Question, which was to ask him whether in the view of the Government the Austrian people had made sufficient contribution towards their own liberation and towards the de-Nazification of the country, in order to justify the application to Austria of the terms of the Moscow Declaration, which were that Austria should be treated as a free and independent country and when—
Speech.
Allied Control
asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he will make a statement on the terms of the new agreement to be concluded between the Governments of the four Powers occupying Austria.
Future control policy in Austria will shortly be considered by the Allied Council in Vienna in the light of recent recognition of the Austrian State and the Austrian Government. It is the desire of His Majesty's Government that control should be progressively relaxed.
Can the Chancellor use every effort to speed up the conclusion of this Agreement in view of the fact that it is quite impossible for the Austrian Government to make the necessary plans for the recovery of Austria's disrupted economic condition while matters are so uncertain?
The Agreement in question will have to be dealt with by the Allied Control Committee, and it is anticipated that it will be brought before them within the next few days.
Why is it necessary to keep nearly 1,000,000 troops in occupation of this unfortunate country, Austria, which has never shown Fascist leanings?
We have nothing like 1,000,000 troops in Austria.
Netherlands East Indies
Sir A. Clark Kerr's Mission
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the mission of Sir Archibald Clark Kerr to Batavia had the prior approval of the Netherlands Government and of the Indonesian Nationalist leaders.
In accordance with the usual practice, the Netherlands Government were informed of the proposal to appoint Sir Archibald Clerk Kerr as a special Ambassador with a mission in the Netherlands East Indies, and they at once agreed. The Indonesian Nationalist leaders were not informed, but there is some reason to think that they also will welcome the presence of Sir Archibald Clark Kerr.
Would it be a fair assumption that this British Mission will take the place of the proposed Netherlands Parliamentary Commission, which many of us think would be of very doubtful efficacy?
I cannot possibly answer what the Netherlands Parliament or Government would decide.
Dutch Forces
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has considered the telegram from the hon. and gallant Member for Aston (Major Wyatt), the contents of which have been communicated to him; and if, while doing everything possible to secure a peaceful settlement in Indonesia and the speedy withdrawal of British Forces, he will take steps to avert the danger, in the present delicate situation, that intense provocation may be caused by the arrival in Indonesia of large Dutch forces.
Yes, Sir, I have considered the telegram from the hon. and gallant Member for Aston. Of course, the Government will give full weight to what the hon. and gallant Member says, and my hon. Friend may be sure that, in everything they do in the Netherlands East Indies, His Majesty's Government will carefully consider the effect their action may have on the prospects of a peaceful settlement.
Has my right hon. Friend considered Dr. Sjahrir's last statement, as reported this morning, and is it not the case that very good results have so far been achieved by the employment of the Peace Preservation Corps?
I have considered Dr. Sjahrir's last declaration, and I think that some of the co-operation he gave has been satisfactory, and I hope it may be extended. In fact, some Dutch troops have been landed in Batavia, to replace Dutch Colonial troops, and the results have been most satisfactory.
Could the right hon. Gentleman say what the hon. and gallant Member for Aston is doing in those parts?
I understand that he is on the Parliamentary Delegation to India.
But this is about Indonesia, and they are not the same place.
Questions
Greece (Armed Disorders)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent British troops are being used to assist the Greek Government in suppressing the monarchist revolt in Greece.
The troubles at Kalamata began with the murder of the local leader of the X organisation, of two of his bodyguard and of his six year old son. According to the Police report these murders were committed by Communists, and members of the X organisation retaliated by killing two Communists and wounding others with a bomb. Demonstrations followed, after which armed bands of the X organisation, in uniform, armed with automatic weapons, and acting in military formation, took control of the town. When Greek Government forces arrived, the X bands withdrew, taking a number of hostages with them, some of whom were murdered before the remainder were released. It would be an exaggeration to describe these events as a monarchist revolt; but they constitute a lamentable example of local disorder. British troops were not involved, since the outbreak was dealt with promptly and efficiently by the Greek Gendarmerie and by units of the Greek Army. British troops would, of course, have given their help, had it been required to restore order. This episode shows how essential it is that private armed bands, both of the Right and of the Left, should be disarmed, in order that Greece may be freed at last from the menace of extremist violence. As the Government have declared, one of the purposes of the presence of British troops in Greece is to assist to this end.
Will the Minister make it clear that British troops in Greece will, if necessary, be used with just as much energy in the suppression of any revolt from the Monarchy of the Right, as they were used in December, 1944, in the suppression of an alleged revolt of the Left?
I think I have said so in terms in my answer.
Whilst absolutely agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman's answer, in view of the fact that the organisation was outlawed by Mr. Papandreou in October, 1944, because of its collaboration with the Germans during the occupation, may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman would say under what circumstances that ban was apparently lifted so that the present Greek Prime Minister had to state that from henceforth the X organisation would be denounced as illegal?
I am afraid I could not give my hon. Friend a detailed answer, but the Greek Government are taking vigorous action, and are closing all offices in Athens and district.
My right hon. Friend referred to a police report. Have His Majesty's Government no better information than that emanating from a Fascist-controlled organisation?
I have very little reason to doubt that that report is entirely true.
Could the right hon. Gentleman say what happened to the hostages taken by the Monarchists?
Some of them were killed. First reports said 14, and the last, I think, was six, but it may have been more. The remainder were released after the Greek troops had issued an ultimatum to the leader of the X organisation.
United Nations (Security Council Hearings)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that he has the support of the majority of public opinion in this country in pressing for and welcoming the earliest possible hearing by the U.N.O. of the charges brought by the U.S.S.R. against Britain in respect of Greece and Indonesia; and whether he will give an assurance that he will continue to press for the same object.
The Security Council of the United Nations exists to deal with disputes or misunderstandings between the Member States, and His Majesty's Government confidently hope that it will be used for that purpose whenever it is required. They are more than willing that the Council should examine any charges made against Great Britain, so that our good name may be cleared, and they are satisfied that in pursuing this policy they will have the widest national support. My hon. Friend will be aware that the Security Council will be dealing with the dispute between Iran and the Government of the Soviet Union this afternoon. Thereafter, the questions of Greece and Indonesia will be considered.
Is it reasonable to hope that the British Government will continue to demand an investigation of these charges, whether or no the Soviet Union succeeds in avoiding a similar allegation with regard to Persia?
That is a hypothetical question. I think my answer was pretty clear.
Polish Second Corps (Italy)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state the extent of the financial liability assumed by His Majesty's Government for the maintenance of the Polish Second Corps in Italy under the command of A.F.H.Q.; what is the approximate sum this Corps has cost the Exchequer from the recognition of the present Polish Government to date; what are the Army regulations forbidding indulgence in political activities and particularly in such activities hostile to any of our Allies that are applied to this force by A.F.H.Q.; why it is permitted to use a cipher of its own, to broadcast, to publish political pamphlets, newspapers and reviews; and why it is kept under arms.
As the answer to this Question is rather long, I will with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
His Majesty's Government have assumed responsibility for the provision of the necessary funds for the maintenance of the Polish land forces under British command, pending arrangements as to their ultimate disposal. The cost to His Majesty's Government of the Polish troops in Italy is approximately £2,000,000 a month. Polish armed forces under British command are subject to regulations similar to those in force for British troops, in that, as soldiers, they are forbidden to take an active part in political proceedings.
As regards the fourth part of the Question, the Polish 2nd Corps is allowed to use cypher for its operational messages in accordance with normal army procedure, but the cypher is available to the British authorities; no facilities for broadcasting have been placed at the disposal of the 2nd Corps; it has the same facilities for printing its own publications as any formation under British command.
As regards the last part, the Corps is kept under arms pending a settlement of the whole question of the future of the Polish armed forces, which is under discussion between His Majesty's Government and the Polish Provisional Government; the two Governments are agreed in desiring that as many men as possible should return to Poland.
Trieste (Allied Military Government)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that Dr. Srecko Bataga, holding high appointment in the Slovene education department of A.M.G., Trieste, is being tried, in absentia, in Ljubljana as a war criminal on charges of being a former member of the Domobranci and torturing persons suspected as Partisans; that 11 other former members of the Domobranci are acting as teachers; that the Primorski Dnevnik paper was suspended on 27th November for stating that A.M.G. education seemed run by Fascists; and whether he will rescind the suspension of this newspaper and secure the dismissal and handing over to justice of all war criminals in the employ of A.M.G. in Trieste.
I have asked for a report on the points raised by my hon. Friend, and I will write to him when it is received.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are a number of persons being tried by the Yugoslav Government as war criminals and that there is a good deal of misunderstanding in regard to the attitude of His Majesty's Government in handing these people over?
London Transport
Staff (Courtesy)
asked the Minister of War Transport whether, in view of the unhelpful and discourteous attitude of many employees, including regulators, of the L.P.T.B., he will suggest to the Board that regulators and inspectors should wear numbers in the interests of the travelling public who may wish to identify them.
As I have stated in answer to a previous question, I cannot accept the implication in the first part of the Question, though I am aware that there is some cause for complaint. The Board assure me that they can readily identify a regulator or inspector if the time and place of any incident is given. It is unnecessary, therefore, for them to wear numbers.
Is the Minister aware that these regulators and inspectors do not assert their authority at all, that they are terrified of the ordinary bus conductors or conductresses, that they do not help the general public and cannot even say "Boo" to a goose?
I can hardly square the fact that they cannot say "Boo" to a goose with the allegation that they terrorise other sections of the community.
No. 11 Bus Route
asked the Minister of War Transport what steps he proposes to take to prevent the present confusion on the No. 11 omnibus route in London.
With a high frequency service such as this on a relatively short route which passes through a large number of congested traffic points, some "bunching" of omnibuses is bound to occur, especially when there is a shortage of inspectors. The London Passenger Transport Board expect to improve the time-keeping on this route as more inspectors become available.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any idea of the fantastic situation caused by these buses going along in coveys through Central London, the first one being full up while all the others are empty?
Yes, Sir, I have used this route myself for many years.
That is why it is so bad.
Overcrowding
asked the Minister of War Transport if he is aware of the overcrowding of London tubes and omnibuses during peak periods; what steps he is taking materially to improve the situation; and when he anticipates that these steps will become effective.
As a general rule, in the Central London area the train services provided by the London Passenger Transport Board at the peak periods are the maximum that can be operated, but if my hon. Friend has any particular cases in mind I shall be happy to make inquiries. Since 1st September, 1945, the Board have increased their mileage by 360,000 a week, and further improvements are being made as more vehicles become available.
Railways
L.M.S. (Late Running)
asked the Minister of War Transport if he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the consistent late running of the following L.M.S. express trains, the 10 a.m. Glasgow (Central) to Euston, 10 a.m. Glasgow (St. Enoch) to St. Pancras, 8.40 a.m. Perth to Euston and 10 a.m. St. Pancras to Glasgow (St. Enoch).
The running of these trains is recognised to be unsatisfactory, and I regret that their unpunctuality was aggravated in December and early January by the heavy holiday traffic and by fog. I am in consultation with the railway companies regarding the possibility of overcoming the various difficulties that are giving rise to delays to passenger services generally.
Will the Minister remember that this matter has now been under the consideration of his Department for at least three months, and can he hold out any hope that, in the not too far distant future, passengers on these trains—and there is a very large travelling public between London and Scotland whose journeys are really necessary—will benefit by some improvement?
I am aware of the difficulties, and it is my intention to convey them to the Railway Executive Committee.
Will there be more efficient service when the railways are nationalised?
Will the Minister also bear in mind that the 8.20 from Perth runs so late now that it is impossible to make appointments in London before noon?
I should like to make it plain to the House that the control of trains is entirely in the hands of the railway companies, and it is my intention, aware as I am of the growing dissatisfaction, to convey it to the proper quarter.
Southern Railway (Gravesend Service)
asked the Minister of War Transport whether, in view of the congestion on trains which serve Gravesend, he will see that the through Gillingham trains do not stop at Woolwich and, if possible, Dartford.
No, Sir. To eliminate the stop at Woolwich would cause serious inconvenience to the considerable number of people working in the Woolwich area who use these trains at present. As regards the stop at Dartford, I would refer my hon. Friend to my answer to his question on 5th December last.
Will the Minister represent to the Southern Railway the necessity for improving train services to Gravesend during the peak hours, because during those hours most of the accommodation is being used by passengers en route, thus causing a great congestion?
I will be only too pleased to direct the attention of the Southern Railway to the remarks of my hon. Friend.
Questions
Board of Trade (Parliamentary Secretary's Resignation)
asked the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make with regard to the resignation of the hon. Member for Stoke from the office of Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade.
No, Sir.
May I ask the Prime Minister whether he considers the resignation of a Minister during the Parliamentary Recess to be so trivial a matter as not to warrant explanation or so difficult a matter to explain that he prefers to pass it over in silence?
I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman, even with his experience, will realise that it is quite contrary to precedent for the Prime Minister to make statements on matters of this kind. No one observed that precedent more closely than my right hon. Friend the present Leader of the Opposition.
Will the Prime Minister tell the House what was the nature of the quarrel between the Parliamentary Secretary and his chief?
National Wage Policy
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider setting up a Royal Commission for the purpose of making recommendations for the introduction of a national wage policy for all industries throughout the country.
No, Sir.
Does the Prime Minister realise that this is an all-important matter? Why is it that the Government have no coherent policy for wages? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this method of leaving it alone or passing it on will not do any longer?
That, of course, is quite another question. The Government have a coherent policy on wages, but the hon. Member's suggestion for a Royal Commission is not an appropriate way of dealing with this matter.
Is it not a fact that there is no known policy for wages by this Government, and that it is an absolute scandal?
Ministers (Missions Abroad)
asked the Prime Minister how many Ministers of the Crown left this country on official missions during the recent Parliamentary Recess; what countries were visited; what was the object of the respective journeys; what results were achieved in each case; and what was the total cost to public funds.
Seven Ministers of the Crown were out of the country during some part of the recent Parliamentary Recess.
The Lord President of the Council visited Canada and the United States to make personal contacts with Ministers and leading personalities in those countries.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs visited Moscow for discussions with Monsieur Molotov and Mr. Byrnes.
The Secretary of State for the Colonies visited West Africa to preside over the first meeting of the newly-formed West Africa Council.
The Minister of Education visited Gibraltar and Tangier en route for Malta where, at the request of my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, she inspected the work of the Admiralty educational establishment with reference to general arrangements of adult education in the Services.
The Minister of Food visited the United States. The chief purpose of the visit was to discuss with the United States Secretary of Agriculture the international aspects of the serious and urgent problems relating to the supply of cereals, especially wheat and rice.
The Minister of Civil Aviation visited Bermuda to discuss with Canadian delegates a bilateral agreement on transatlantic air services, the return of Newfoundland air bases and other matters of mutual interest.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster visited Germany in his capacity as the Minister responsible for handling the affairs of the British element of the Control Commission for Germany.
I am confident that no responsible body of opinion will question the great value to the nation of these varied personal contacts on the part of His Majesty's Ministers with our friends overseas. I regret that in the time available I am not able to say what was the total cost to public funds of these visits.
Civil Aviation (Bermuda Conference)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that at the British-American Civil Aviation Conference in Bermuda on 17th January last, Mr. G. P. Baker, of the U.S. State Department, claimed that the Bermuda Conference was linked with financial talks betwen the two countries, and that the U.S. State Department felt that civil aviation and telecommunications should be handled concurrently with the loan discussions; and whether he will make a statement on the views of His Majesty's Government on this subject.
The civil aviation discussions are not specifically linked with the arrangements for the loan and associated agreements, but the settlement of any outstanding economic questions between the two countries must obviously conduce towards mutual understanding in our economic relationships.
Now that we have accepted the Bretton Woods proposals, may I ask that we shall not give way on any British civil aviation matter which, hitherto, we have always refused to abandon?
I should not be prepared to say anything so definite as that. Quite obviously, there must be a certain latitude on both sides in such negotiations.
Atomic Bomb Tests
asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government have made representations to the U.S. Government that British and Canadian participation in the forthcoming atomic bomb tests in the Pacific is desirable and consistent with the principle of joint experimentation developed during the war.
Yes, Sir, the participation of Britsh representatives in these trials is at present being considered in consultation with the United States authorities.
Will the Prime Minister say whether this country has any rights in the atomic bomb at all now?
That seems to be a different question altogether.
I do not like such putting-off technique.
Will the representatives in this matter be military men and not merely Press observers?
Clearly, they will not be Press observers; they will be official representatives.
Military Service (Youths)
asked the Prime Minister whether in order to allay the anxiety now felt both by 18 year olds seeking a career, and by officers commanding pre-service training units, as to their future, he will recommend some relaxation of military service in respect of those boys, who, before joining the Forces, voluntarily give up their time to cadet units and become efficient.
I have been asked to reply. While I appreciate the zeal of these boys in preparing themselves for military service and have much sympathy with my hon. Friend's suggestion I am afraid that in present circumstances it would not be practicable. I will, however, give my hon. Friend an assurance that his suggestion will be fully considered in connection with any future scheme of military training that may be introduced.
If a cadet, after four years' training and gaining a certificate of proficiency, is treated, when joining other Forces, the same as a person who has had no training, is not that equivalent to the military authorities saying that such training has no value?
If the hon. Gentleman will read my answer, he will find that we are very sympathetic to his suggestion, and that it is being borne in mind.
How long do the Government propose to retain a period of permanent service?
That is another question.
Fishing Industry
Government Policy
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will make a statement as to his long-term policy for the fishing industry.
I am not yet in a position to make a comprehensive statement in this matter but, as indicated in the Gracious Speech, the Government's policy is to take all necessary steps to promote a healthy fishing industry.
White Fish Commission
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can yet make a statement with regard to the reconstitution of the White Fish Commission.
No, Sir. This question is under active consideration by the Departments concerned, but no definite announcement on the subject can yet be made.
Agriculture
Lime
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that owing to the increased demand for lime for building and industrial use, suppliers cannot accept any orders for lime under the Land Fertility Scheme; and if he will take steps to see that the position is improved.
As a result of the growing demand for lime by the building industry, decreasing quantities of hydrated lime and quick lime are now being supplied for agriculture. Suppliers of lime under the Land Fertility Scheme can, however, accept orders for alternative grades of lime suitable for agriculture, largely increased supplies of which have been made available.
German War Prisoners
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will state, to the nearest convenient date, the number of German prisoners of war employed in agriculture in England and Wales; and what steps his department is taking to provide for their replacement.
The number of German prisoners of war employed on agricultural work in England and Wales at the end of December, 1945, was 76,200. As regards the second part of the Question, for some considerable time to come the labour requirements for food production will be such that all available manpower will be needed. While therefore all practicable measures are being taken to increase the regular labour force engaged in agriculture, the question of immediate and special steps to provide for the replacement of prisoners does not arise.
May I ask whether my right hon. Friend is aware that the decision to call up 5,000 men to the Forces almost cancels out the recent announcement of an increase in Class B release? Can that matter be reconsidered?
I feel towards this matter the same as my hon. Friend feels, but, like all the high priority industries, agriculture is playing its part.
If I may be allowed to give information to my right hon. Friend about my own constituency, I would like to inform him that German and Italian prisoners of war are taking work away from British agricultural workers. Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter to see whether preference is being given to prisoners of war?
I shall be glad to look into any such complaint if any is made.
Egg and Poultry Prices
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will consider permitting the Poultry Association of Great Britain (SPBA), Limited, to be represented at the annual February review with regard to egg and poultry prices.
No, Sir. It would be inappropriate for representatives of specialist commodity producers to be associated with a review of the general economic position of farming as a whole. I have, however, agreed that officials of my Department shall meet representatives of this association in the near future in order to hear their views in regard to egg and poultry prices.
Are we to understand that these are to be dictated poultry prices and that no democratic prices are to be allowed at all?
My hon. Friend is to understand nothing of the kind.
That is just what I do understand.
County Committees (Farming Activities)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in connection with the land farmed by W.A.E.C.s during the past six years, he will consider issuing a full and complete profit and loss account in view of the fact that the public have a right to know the financial results of this committee farming.
I regret that it is not possible from the information available to prepare such an account. Nor would it be possible to prepare one in respect of any given period without valuations being made at the beginning and end of that period of the live and dead stock, including tillages, of all lands in the possession of all the committees.
Is not the Minister aware that the money involved is public money, which the taxpayer has to provide, and are we not entitled to know what are the profit and loss statements of these committees over a period of time? This is an important matter.
The hon. Gentleman must be aware that there can be no question of making a profit until an area has been brought back into good heart. The land included undeveloped building land, commons, golf courses and so forth, and, with the staff available, it is impossible to provide balance sheets.
It is public money. Should not it be disclosed what is happening to that money? The Government dare not disclose what is happening to it. I challenge them to do so.
Manpower
asked the Minister of Agriculture how many men have now returned to agriculture and horticulture since release under Class A; how many have not so returned; and how many men and women have now applied for the Government's training scheme for agriculture and horticulture.
Up to 31st December, 1945, applications for agricultural or horticultural training under the Government's Scheme had been received from 1,053 persons. I regret that the information desired with regard to Class A releases of agricultural workers is not available.
In view of the answer which the right hon. Gentleman gave to Question 56, may I ask whether he does not consider that some very urgent steps should be taken to encourage men who formerly worked in agriculture, and who have come out of the Forces under Class A, to return to the land?
I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that all steps that can be taken by the Government are being taken to recruit a labour force through the normal channels.
National Advisory Service
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is prepared to postpone the date on which members of the local authorities' staffs who wish to do so must become members of the National Advisory Service, in order that such persons may have further time to consider the matter; and whether he will make a statement as to the future advisory functions of members of farm institute staffs who decide not to exercise their option to join the National Advisory Service.
A period of eight weeks has been allowed for the receipt of applications for transfer to the Ministry from the staffs of local authorities. For the whole of that period technical staffs have known the Advisory Service conditions of transfer, and no extension of time seems necessary in their case. Corresponding information is not yet available for the small number of clerical and other non-technical staffs involved, and an extension to 30th April is accordingly being allowed for them. In reply to the latter part of the Question, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education and I hope to issue a circular shortly on the relations of the local education authorities and their staffs with the N.A.A.S.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that members of the staffs of local authorities are very concerned because they have been forced to take a decision without knowing whether the farm institutes are going to continue to exercise advisory functions or not?
My hon. and gallant Friend will be aware that all these officers had the right to apply to the Ministry of Agriculture for transfer if they desired, and, since all of them know the terms and conditions, it seems to me that there is no reason to feel that there was any necessity for an extension of time.
But is not the Minister aware that many members of the farm institutes wish to stay on the staffs and not join the National Advisory Service if the farm institutes are going to exercise advisory functions?
Ministry (Requisitioned Premises)
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will state the number of rooms and amount of floor space occupied by his Department at 145, London Road, Kingston-upon-Thames; and the number of officers of his Department permanently stationed at these premises.
My Department occupied six rooms at these premises, covering approximately 1,250 square feet. One of the rooms is used as a store room and another is equipped as a laboratory. Five officers are permanently stationed at the premises.
In view of the critical need for office accommodation in this building in connection with re-housing, cannot the right hon. Gentleman persuade his officers to move up and make a little more room?
My officers will gladly accept any alternative accommodation that might be provided for them, but if the care of animal health is to continue, the officers dealing with that problem must have some room in which to work.
Dairy Licences
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is now able to state whether existing regulations governing the granting of dairy licences in England are to be immediately amended so as to make eligible for such licences bulls carrying Canadian, Dutch and Scottish milk records.
I propose to amend the Regulations forthwith so as to permit the acceptance for dairy licence purposes of milk records obtained under any milk recording scheme that I may approve from time to time. I intend at the same time to approve the Scottish and Canadian milk recording schemes for this purpose. I have not reached a decision on Dutch milk records, as I have as yet received insufficient information from the appropriate authorities.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make that action retrospective?
I doubt if that would be practicable, but I will look into it.
Notice to Quit (Shobdon)
asked the Minister of Agriculture why consent was given upholding the notice to quit, served by the purchaser of Uphampton Farm, Shobdon, Herefordshire, on the tenants, Messrs. Tedstone Bros. in view of Defence Regulation 62 (4, a ); and why seven months passed after the notice to quit was given before consent by the Ministry was given upholding this notice.
I was satisfied that no speculation was involved in the case, and that the proposed change of occupation would not result in a serious decline in food production. I regret that the inquiries which were necessary prevented my reaching an early decision.
In view of the importance of this subject to the agricultural community, and the impossibility of clearing it up by question and answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.
Higher Education
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has considered the Report of the Loveday Committee on Higher Agricultural Education; and with what result.
Yes, Sir. I have arranged for the report to be published and I hope it will be available to hon. Members on Thursday. I cannot at this stage commit myself to acceptance in detail of all the committee's recommendations, but I am in general agreement with the coherent plan suggested by the committee for improved facilities for higher agricultural education to meet the needs of the future. I would commend it to the attention of the universities and other interested bodies.
Questions
Australia (British High Commissioner)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, in view of the long time that has elapsed since the resignation of Sir Ronald Cross, he expects to be able to name a new British High Commissioner for Australia at an early date.
Yes, Sir. The question of making an appointment is under active consideration.
Eire Citizens (British Uniforms)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is aware that citizens of Eire serving in the British forces cannot return to Ireland except in civilian clothes, and that they complain that it often takes a fortnight to obtain these clothes and consequently their journey home is delayed, whereas Americans, Australians and New Zealanders can travel to Eire in uniform; and what action he proposes to take in order to remedy this grievance.
It is the case that the wearing of uniform by members of the United Kingdom Forces when on leave in Eire is contrary to Service Regulations. I understand that the United States and overseas Dominion Service authorities have made arrangements under which members of their Forces visiting Eire are allowed to do so in uniform, but this is, of course, a matter entirely for them.
As regards the issue of civilian clothing, I am informed that special priority is given to clothing issues to Army personnel being released to Eire and that a delay of 14 days occurs only in the case of men returning from overseas for whom special measure clothing has to be made. Such cases, however, are few and the men concerned may, if they wish, obtain their own civilian clothing from their homes to avoid delay. Civilian clothing is issued on loan to personnel proceeding to Eire on leave, and no delay is involved.
Does not the hon. Gentleman recognise how bitterly this discrimination is resented by these gallant Irishmen, in accordance with which, when going to their own country, they are treated differently from Americans and men from Canada, Australia and New Zealand?
That is exactly the point. The Irish Government consider that those men arriving in British uniform are their own citizens, whereas the other people are visitors.
Could my hon. Friend say whether that clothing is subject to Purchase Tax?
Certainly not.
Roads
Haulage Organisation
asked the Minister of War Transport if he will issue a report on the operations of the Road Haulage Organisation from its inception to date.
Yes, Sir.
Will my right hon. Friend find it possible to include in this report a comparison of the road haulage industry before the war, as regards costs, running times and so forth?
The matter, of course, is one for consideration, and I will certainly see if that is possible, but there may be serious difficulties in the way.
asked the Minister of War Transport whether he has yet completed his review of the activities of the Road Haulage Organisation and other road transport concerns; and whether he is now able to take steps to abolish the distinctions between the licences given to hauliers in adjoining areas.
As I promised the hon. Member before the Recess, I have examined this Question and I am satisfied that there are no differences of principle and that my Regional Transport Commissioners at Nottingham and Cambridge each issue permits under the Road Transport of Goods Order in the light of the transport situation in their respective Regions.
In view of the growing dissatisfaction among both operators and users of transport as to these artificial distinctions, will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how he justifies them?
This matter has been looked into and I am satisfied that the variations, occasioned largely by the movements of agricultural produce, are not inconsistent with the general principle. If the hon. Member cares to submit further evidence I shall be pleased to look into the matter again.
Fatal Accidents
asked the Minister of War Transport how many people were killed on the roads in 1945; and how many were killed by omnibuses, tram-cars, military vehicles, lorries and vans, private motor cars, motor-cycles, ordinary cycles and by other means, respectively.
The number of persons killed on the roads in 1945 was 5,256. With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT details as to the vehicles of various types primarily involved in these accidents.
Will the hon. Gentleman see that before he starts the public safety campaign the reasons for the deaths under each head are carefully analysed so that the public may have some idea which is the most dangerous type of vehicle?
The campaign has started. The analysing of the causes of accidents is not a simple matter.
Will the hon. Member bear in mind the grave lack of courtesy in our national life—which is unfortunately growing—which has had a considerable amount to do with this awful figure of deaths on the roads?
Has the hon. Gentleman any information about the distribution of accidents as between sexes?
Yes, Sir. The records show the rather surprising figure, that in almost every age group twice the number of men are killed than women and twice the number of boys than girls.
Following are the details :
Number of vehicles of various types primarily involved in fatal road accidents in 1945. 1945. Type of vehicle. No Service vehicles (including Dominions and Allied) 899 N.F.S. vehicles 27 Tramcars 94 Buses and coaches 651 Hackney vehicles 67 Goods vehicles 1,213 Private cars 883 Motor cycles 501 Pedal cycles 686 Trolley vehicles 74 Miscellaneous 161 Total 5,256
Street Lighting (Westminster)
asked the Minister of War Transport whether he is aware that the streets immediately surrounding this House are lighted individually by hand; and as such a method throws discredit on the Capital, if he will take steps to have some other method of lighting the street lamps installed.
The way in which street lighting is controlled is entirely within the discretion of the lighting authority—in this case the Westminster City Council, with whom I propose to discuss the matter.
Could the right hon. Gentleman satisfy the curiosity of the House as to why the street lighting in Westminster is the responsibility of the Ministry of War Transport?
Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will not completely destroy some of those pieces of antiquity that particularly belong to Westminster?
Bus Services (Women)
asked the Minister of War Transport if he will ensure that the discharge of women from work on omnibuses is postponed until full services have been restored.
Women, recruited to replace men who joined the Forces, are gradually giving place to the men on their demobilisation. I know of no case in which the return of available omnibuses to service is being delayed by discharges, but if my hon. Friend has any particular instance in mind I will make enquiries.
Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that a good many women are so attached to their jobs in transport that they do not wish to be supplanted by men?
Road Fund (Government Proposals)
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
105. Mr. WOODS—To ask the Minister of War Transport whether he will make a statement on his future policy with regard to grants from the Road Fund.
At the end of Questions —
With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I propose to make a statement in reply to Question 105:
The road grant system has become complicated by a number of adjustments of the normal rates of grant to meet particular conditions, and I have decided that the rates of grant should be simplified and standardised according to the class of road concerned, and at the same time be increased. For approved works of improvement or maintenance the rate of grant will be 75 per cent. on Class I roads and 60 per cent. on Class II roads. In areas where road maintenance is covered by the block grant the new rates will apply to improvements only. I propose also to introduce a system of Class III roads embracing some 50,000 to 60,000 miles of the more important roads at present unclassified, and to make available grants at the rate of 50 per cent. of the cost of their maintenance and improvement. This will be of special benefit to agricultural areas.
The general effect of these proposals will be to increase substantially the contributions from central funds towards the cost of the maintenance and improvement of the roads of the country.
I should mention two further points. The first is that the Government propose to complete the Crofter Counties scheme begun before the war at the 100 per cent. rate of grant then promised. The second is that grants made under the provisions of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, towards salaries and establishment charges will be limited in future to the salaries of the chief engineering officer of a highway authority. These arrangements will operate from the beginning of the next financial year. I am sending as soon as possible a circular to highway authorities setting out these decisions, but before doing so I thought it right that I should inform the House.
Has any estimate been made of the probable cost of these increased grants, which will be generally welcomed by highway authorities?
It is estimated that the increased charge to the Treasury will be approximately £2,500,000 a year.
Shipping
Transport of Families
asked the Minister of War Transport if he is aware of the delay involved in the provision of passages for wives and families in this country to enable them to join their husbands overseas; what steps are being taken to increase the shipping accommodation available for this purpose; and if he will make a statement on the subject so as to give the wives and families, at present waiting for passages, some indication as to when accommodation is likely to be available.
Yes, Sir, I am aware of delay. Demands for the carriage of passengers by sea far exceed the capacity of shipping. Large numbers of wives and families could be transported only at the expense of the return home of Servicemen and other similar tasks of high importance, but I am allocating the maxi- mum amount of shipping space compatible with covering these urgent tasks. As the pressure on troop movements becomes less, I shall be able to do more, but I cannot commit myself to dates at this stage.
Is the Minister aware of the hardship caused to a large number of people by the lack of any definite information?
I am only too aware of the difficulties of this situation, and I assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that we are doing our best to mitigate them.
Does not my right hon. Friend agree that, in the main, the difficulty with regard to transport accommodation arises with respect to ships coming to this country, whereas there is more accommodation available in ships leaving for ports overseas, for wives and families at present awaiting passages?
I shall be pleased to give my hon. Friend some information if he will spare me five minutes at some time or other.
Merchant Navy (Pay)
asked the Minister of War Transport if he will approach the National Maritime Board regarding a temporary increase of pay for officers and men of the Merchant Navy, in view of the fact that they receive no war gratuities and have heavy expenses to meet on their return to other employment after their release.
Officers and men of the Merchant Navy have throughout the war been employed at industrial rates of wages negotiated and settled by the National Maritime Board. The Government would not be justified in suggesting to the Board that additional payments should be made in lieu of the gratuities paid to the Services.
S.S. "Georgic"
asked the Minister of War Transport, in view of the shortage of shipping for the repatriation of serving men and women from the Mediterranean zone, why Messrs. Thomas Cook & Son have been able to organise a sightseeing tour for a civilian party to travel on s.s. "Georgic," leaving Malta, on 23rd January.
I have seen the advertisement which gave rise to my hon. Friend's question. It is misleading and I have taken the matter up with the agents concerned. The position is that the "Georgic was originally programmed for a round trooping voyage to Italy and Malta. After providing for all Service personnel due for return to this country some accommodation would have been available to afford a much needed opportunity for the conveyance of civilians waiting for transport to England. Before she left England, however, it became necessary to re-route this vessel and she is now on her way to Bombay.
Questions
R.A.F. (Incidents, East)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make upon the incidents among personnel of the Royal Air Force in the East.
I only received this Question as I entered the House. I propose, with the permission of Mr. Speaker and the House, to make a statement tomorrow.
Orders of the Day
Water (Scotland) Bill
As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Provisions as to orders subject to special Parliamentary procedure.)
(1) Any inquiry in relation to an order under this Act which in certain events becomes subject to special Parliamentary procedure shall, if the Secretary of State so directs, be held by commissioners under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936; and any direction so given shall be deemed to have been given under section two, as read with section ten, of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945.
(2) Nothing in subsections (2) to (9) of section seventy-three of this Act shall apply to any inquiry under this section by commissioners under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936.
(3) The provisions of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945, with regard to the publication of notices in the Edinburgh Gazette and in a newspaper shall, notwithstanding anything in that Act contained, not apply to any order under this Act which is subject to special Parliamentary procedure.—[ The Lord Advocate. ]
Brought up, and read the First time.
3.20 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
Since the original introduction of the Bill, the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act 1945 has been passed. Its object was to provide an up-to-date simplified code to be followed in connection with the Statutory Orders. It is desired to make use of this new procedure in the present Bill, and as a result certain amendments of the previous Measure have been made necessary. These prescribe the use of the new procedure and make the necessary adaptations. Of these changes the new Clause contains the chief one, but I might indicate, for the convenience of the House, what other Amendments will be moved dealing with the same matter. Those other Amendments are: that to Clause 20, page 14, line 30, and also the first five Amendments to the First Schedule, on page 523 of the Order Paper. These Amendments are all designed for the same purpose of adapting the present Bill to the recent Act dealing with Statutory Orders, and procedure relating thereto.
It is not always very easy to follow the implications of some of these Amendments, and I wonder whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman would tell me whether I have got this right. Do I understand this Clause to give power to the Secretary of State to refer certain matters to the Commissioners under the private legislation procedure, which without that reference would come before the local inquiry? I think that that is its effect. If so, it seems to me to be a good Clause, because it means that there will be an inquiry of a more formal sort before a tribunal with wider qualifications in cases of importance where, perhaps, the fullest public discussion and inquiry are desirable. If I have got the effect of this Clause right, it seems to me to be a Clause which ought to be incorporated in the Bill.
That, broadly, is the effect of the new Clause.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
CLAUSE 8.—(Duty of local authority to provide supply for district.)
I beg to move, in page 5, line 18, leave out from "by," to end of line 19, and insert:
"any person appearing to him to have an interest."
I think the point was brought up during the Committee stage of the Bill. I feel that this is a good Bill, and it would be a pity to spoil it by leaving untidy ends hanging loose. First, I can visualise cases where in certain districts it may be a difficult matter to find 10 local government electors, and I believe that certain individuals who require water in their houses, especially those located in remote districts, may be put to unnecessary annoyance and trouble if the Amendment is not accepted. Secondly, if a man wants water, I do not believe that he will have much difficulty, as a general rule, in finding 10 local government electors and persuading them that he does need the water, and that they should apply to the Secretary of State for Scotland for water to be put into his premises. If I am right in my assumption, then I submit to the Joint Under-Secretary that as the Clause is worded at the moment the reference to 10 or more local govern- ment electors is purely a matter of form and has no meaning whatsoever. I would ask the hon. Gentleman to tell me why the number 10 should have been chosen, and who is protected by the signatures of those 10 local government electors. In fact, what is the point of the present wording of the Clause?
I beg to second the Amendment.
I apologise to the House and to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Forfar (Major Ramsay) for not having been present when this Amendment, which stands in my name and his, was called. I was called out of the Chamber to see a constituent and returned just after you, Mr. Speaker, had called the Amendment. I would address myself to it in a rather different way from my hon. and gallant Friend the mover, although I agree with everything that has been said by him. Under Clause 8 (1) it is incumbent upon the local authority to take a supply of wholesome water to every part of the district where it is required, except to those places where it cannot be provided at a reasonable cost. Under Clause 8 (2) it is the duty of the local authority to take in supply pipes to such positions as will enable buildings requiring a supply of water to connect them at a reasonable cost. But, again, an exception is made in cases where the work cannot be done economically by the local authority. The local authority is thus, in my submission, not to be compelled to make any provision which it cannot make at a reasonable cost. The private individual's interests, on the other hand, are not safeguarded to anything like the same extent. Under Clause 54, the owner has to provide a supply of piped water inside a house, unless it is not reasonably practicable, in which case the supply must be as near the house as possible.
It is true that when one looks up the definition of the words "reasonably practicable" in Clause 83, one finds that this does include the cost, but there is nothing to cover the case of the property, which is out of reach of the local authority's supply. The obligation rests upon the owner of that property, even if the local authority is exempted from providing the water supply. There is thus a gap, as I pointed out in Committee, between the duty of a local authority under Clause 8 of the Bill and the duty of the property owner under Clause 54. The Bill provides, quite rightly, that the local authority shall not be the sole arbiter on what is reasonable.
3.30 p.m.
Under Clause 8 (3) of the Bill it is provided that bona fide interest in the matter should be able to make his appeal, without having to go through the farce of getting nine other signatures to his request. The Joint Under-Secretary in Committee, I think, said, in a light and joking way, that it would be easy for a man or any housewife to collect in the local stores the names of nine different people; and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith), I think, said it would be perfectly possible to collect nine different names in the "local" at night. But we ought not to submit our legislation to a farce of that kind, and I beg to support my hon. and gallant Friend in his view that any person with a bona fide interest ought to be able to invoke the powers of the Secretary of State in this matter.
May I protest very strongly at the Government's choice of a Monday for the discussion of a Scottish Measure when they know many Scottish Members must be absent on that day? It strikes me as being a way of side- tracking Scottish legislation. I support the Amendment. I have had representations from certain areas in my constituency on the difficulty and, indeed, absurdity of having to collect 10 good men and true or 10 good women and true, to put their signatures to what is, in any case, a perfectly good request. I should like the Joint Under-Secretary, when he replies, to say why this is necessary. One person should be able to make a good case for himself without invoking another nine. I think from the glint in his eye the hon. Gentleman is going to say, "Yes," to this request—I hope he will do so.
Let me say first of all about the Scottish legislation—
Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present;
House counted, and, 40 Members being present—
With regard to the protest about taking Scottish Business on Monday, Scottish Members recognise that Monday is a Parliamentary day for anybody concerned. I have never taken the view—and I have been here much longer than the hon. and gallant Member for Perth (Colonel Gomme-Duncan)—
May I ask one question? Is the hon. Gentleman not fully aware that it was a very old practice in this House that the reassembly after the Recess should not be on a Monday but on a Tuesday, so that Scottish Members need not be put to the trouble of travelling on a Sunday?
I have never defended my absence on a particular day in that way. I take the view that Monday is a Parliamentary day, and Members knowing that Business is down for that day, should attend. The Amendment asks us to substitute one for 10 in this provision. In passing, I think that, in some ways, hon. Members are making the obligation more difficult; because we do not define the 10—any 10 can do—but they go on to define the one. We say that any 10 electors will do; they say the one must have an interest. It may be more difficult to define one with an interest, than to find 10 without any definition at all. It is true I did not take the view that 10 is a sacred figure, but let me give briefly two or three reasons for this proposal. First of all, this to some extent goes back to the old Water Supply Acts of the past, when we had what we called "the 10 per cent. rule" that persons could only raise a matter if the rates came to 10 per cent. of certain costs in connection with waterworks. This is a considerable modification of that provision, because whatever else may be said about it, there is no financial liability about it. There is no financial stringency. The only onus that remains is getting the 10 persons. Really, the argument against the figure 10 was the fact that if one person went with a grievance, and got another nine to sign, you would possibly get nine other persons all with grievances; and instead of lessening grievances from our point of view, the Clause, as it stands, is likely to bring us in many more.
Let me take the case of a small village, for it is only in such an instance that the question arises. The person with a grievance goes to collect 10 signatures. He goes out with his own grievance, and finds, possibly, seven or eight persons who have grievances as well. The number 10 is not a restriction; if you want to restrict grievances you should keep to one person. In the Rural Water Act, passed recently under the Coalition Government, the figure 10 was put in and that is an Act dealing with certain rural conditions. As this House unanimously passed a Clause dealing entirely with rural districts, I see nothing wrong in putting in the figure 10 to include urban as well as rural districts. We have made inquiries and there is no difficulty, so far as we can find, about securing 10 signatures in even the remotest corner. If there were I would give way. There is, however, the possibility, if only one signature were needed, of one person being put up as a "bit of a clown." Ten signatures provide a safeguard against an abuse of that kind. There is no hardship, particularly in view of the fact that this procedure is already included in the Rural Water Act, recently passed by the Coalition Government, and no possibility of the number 10 involving anyone in any great hardship.
There are two points which I wish to raise. With regard to Monday sittings, it may well be that we have to take Scottish business on a Monday, but when we get a day for Scottish business, I think that the Government ought to find enough Scottish business to occupy it. We are always having complaints that there is not sufficient time given to Scottish business, and it does not say very much for the Government if they have not enough business ready to occupy the day.
I must remind the right hon. and learned Member that this does not arise on this Amendment.
A new fact that has appeared since the passing of the Rural Water Act is that in this Bill there is now, for the first time, the obligation to put pipe water in every new house put up in the country, no matter how remote its situation. It is, therefore, essential that there should be the freest possible access to the Secretary of State on this question, and he should recognise that every one is entitled to have a water supply provided for him by the local authority if that can be done without undue expense. It may be that someone will get the impression from the fact that 10 signatures are necessary that local authorities are only under the obligation to extend their water supply when several people require it. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will make it quite clear that it is an obligation on all water authorities to extend their system of distribution even if only one person requires it provided always that they can do so without undue expense. If that is made clear to the local authorities and as an obligation on the Scottish Office, I agree that probably 10 signatures can be found. I would rather see the Amendment adopted, for the substance of the Amendment, to my mind, is that local authorities and the Central Department should have it firmly fixed in their minds that now that they have placed on every individual the obligation of putting pipe water in his house, they must assume the corresponding obligation of giving him the pipes when that is reasonably practicable.
I have no hesitation at all about the practical effects of this proposal. If one person feels aggrieved he can always communicate with his Member of Parliament, who can raise the matter with the Secretary of State and get him all the attention he desires. I wish to make it quite clear, if it is not clear already, that our purpose is to ensure a supply of wholesome water even to a single individual. So far as the Government are concerned I have no hesitation in saying—I speak a second time with the permission of the House—that we will do our best to see that no citizen, however isolated he may be, has a sense of grievance in the matter of water supply.
In that case, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.45 P.m.
CLAUSE 18.—(Power of Secretary of State to authorise local water authority to supply premises outside their limits of supply.)
I beg to move, in page 11, line 40, leave out "outside their limits of supply."
This and the following Amendment in the name of the Secretary of State are, in effect, drafting Amendments. They are to clarify the position by making more precise the period of notice to be given by a local water authority to the supplying authority. We are defining it and taking the view that the terms dealt with in the Clause should also come within that precise definition.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: In page 11, line 42, leave out "are," and insert "were at the date of the order"—[ Mr. Buchanan. ]
CLAUSE 20.—(Power of local water authority to acquire land by agreement or compulsorily.)
I beg to move, in page 14, line 28, leave out "National Trust for Scotland Order," and insert:
"order confirmed by the National Trust for Scotland Order Confirmation Act."
This is a drafting Amendment and has the effect of describing the "National Trust for Scotland Order" in its proper terms.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 14, line 30, leave out from "be" to end of subsection, and insert "subject to special parliamentary procedure."
This Amendment is consequential on the new Clause. It introduces a special Parliamentary procedure concerning any question arising with regard to a compulsory purchase order directed against the National Trust for Scotland in relation to parks or open spaces.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 14, line 34, after "area," insert:
"(unless the persons in whom the land acquired was vested otherwise agree)."
Hon. Members who sat on the Scottish Grand Committee on this Bill will remember that the question of the exchange of land was raised on this Clause. In effect, the Clause said that when land was being exchanged it should be of equal amount and quality. It might be possible for two local authorities to make a perfectly suitable and bona fide exchange, although the amount of land in each case might not be exactly the same. The hon. Member who raised the question took the case of his own practical experience—of two local authorities, who had exchanged 11 acres for about 19 acres. Both were perfectly satisfied with the deal. The 19 acres, while greater in amount, were possibly of less value than the 11 acres; this Amendment is therefore to empower local authorities not to be bound by the exact amount, but to allow an interchange of land for the purposes of water supply. The areas may vary in size but at the same time it may suit both authorities to make the interchange. It was an English Member who proposed the Amendment originally in Committee but it is none the worse for that. As a matter of fact, it shows the value of Committee work. We think it a valuable concession to local authorities, even though the amount may not be the same, if they are both satisfied, to make the interchange. We think it a perfectly feasible proposition, and I trust the House will accept it.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 37.—(Provisions as to supply to tents, vans, sheds, etc.)
I beg to move, in page 23, line 25, leave out "section," and insert "subsection."
This point was raised by an hon. Member in the Scottish Grand Committee, and involves the question of the position of a squatter, in connection with the supply of water. The view that the Government then took was that it was desirable, when passing a new Scottish Bill, to ensure that every citizen, no matter what his designation, should as far as possible have a supply of wholesome water. Whatever may be the merits, whatever may be said about a squatter, he and his family need wholesome water just as much as any other citizen. We are in agreement with the hon. Gentleman who raised the question. When we went into it we found that the house of the crofter, for certain reasons, is not valued as a dwelling house separately, but is valued as part of the croft. We could not, therefore, bring the crofter within the powers, and when we examined the whole matter we decided it would be a good thing to bring within the ambit of water supply both the squatter and the crofter. This Amendment does so. It places for the first time a duty on the State and on the community to supply these people, although they do not appear on the valuation roll for rating purposes for water. It now throws on the local authority a responsibility to see that such people are granted a full supply of wholesome water in Scotland, and I trust that those who asked for this Amendment will agree with us in our view today.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made:
In page 23, line 41, after "which" insert "subsection (1) of."
In line 43, at end, insert:
"(3) Where a supply of water is provided for domestic purposes for any house or habitation (not being a habitation to which subsection (1) of this section applies) which is not entered in the valuation roll or of which no account is taken in estimating under the Lands Valuation (Scotland) Act, 1854, and the enactments amending that Act, the yearly value of the lands and heritages of which such house or habitation forms part, the occupier thereof shall pay to the local water authority in respect of such supply such annual sum as may be reasonable having regard to his possible maximum demand for water.
The amount of the annual sum to be so paid shall be determined in default of agreement by the sheriff, whose decision shall be final."—[ Mr. Buchanan ]
CLAUSE 53.—(Provision of water supply for new buildings and houses.)
I beg to move, in page 32, line 3, at end, insert:
It is the practice of industries which consume very large quantities of water to establish themselves in areas and upon sites where they have ample supplies of water of a suitable quality—in fact their needs could not be met in any other way. The process of paper-making may be. taken as an example of a process which requires very large quantities of water. It is an industry which is widespread throughout Scotland, and of which Scotland has a share out of all proportion to her population. Scottish mills, for example, account for rather over one half of the United Kingdom production of esparto paper. There are between 40 and 50 paper mills in Scotland, located mainly in Midlothian, Aberdeenshire, Fifeshire, Stirling, Glasgow and its surrounding countryside. The House may be surprised to learn that some 20,000 gallons of water are used for every ton of paper that is produced, and a mill output of 40 or 50 tons a day, which is frequent, represents an annual consumption of 200 to 300 million gallons of water.
4.0 p.m.
The distilling industry, on the other hand, offers an example of a process in which the quality of the water used, as distinct from quantity, is a vital and determining factor. Of course the character of the water differentiates the product of one distillery from that of another, and it is vital to the value of its product. In the case of distilling, the particular water appertaining to each distillery would require to be retained for distilling purposes.
In this Clause we are dealing with new buildings. It was established in Committee that the Government did not wish to forbid the installation of a dual water supply, since processed or trade water covers, in some cases, 90 per cent. of the water requirements of some works. If trade water is to be allowed for normal industrial processes, it ought also to be allowed for sanitation and central heating. In practice, the use of trade water for central heating and sanitary purposes in factories has been found to be quite satisfactory, and it has the advantage in that it allows high quality water to be reserved for the purposes for which it is essential. For ordinary purposes, trade water is piped to suitable points through the premises from which it is connected to the different plants, or run off through valves or taps.
I am not aware of any serious difficulty which has arisen from the misuse of any unsuitable water for drinking purposes. Any potential danger has surely been reduced by the requirements of the Factory Act, 1937, Section 41 of which provides that an adequate supply of wholesome drinking water, from a public source or some other source approved in writing by the district council, such approval not to be withheld, except on the ground of the unwholesomeness of the water, must be provided and maintained at suitable points throughout all factories. That should be a safeguard. There should be no risk of anybody wanting to use trade or processed water from sanitary or central heating installations. The risk of such water being misused for drinking purposes could not arise in modern practice, and in the modern factories which will be erected after this Bill becomes law.
I want to remind the House of what the Joint Under-Secretary of State said in the Committee on this Bill during the fourth day's proceedings. The hon. Gentleman said: a ). My contentions are fourfold. First, it is impracticable to prohibit the use of trade water in industrial establishments. That must be conceded. Second, where a dual supply is in use the use of trade water for central heating and sanitary purposes has, in practice, been found to be perfectly satisfactory. Third, in regard to factories erected after the passing of this Bill the provisions of the Bill itself contain adequate safeguards against the possibility of trade water being used for drinking, washing or cooking. Fourth, an arrangement of this kind is important from the point of view of the future development of Scottish industry. The abundance, availability and quality of water in Scotland constitute one of the main attractions for the industries which require large quantities of water for their processes in our country.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I wholeheartedly support my hon. and gallant Friend. The Under-Secretary will recollect that during the Committee stage he pledged himself to consider this matter before the Report stage. I think it will be agreed that the Amendment as it now appears on the Order Paper is an improvement on the former proposal. In fact, I think its purpose is largely explained simply by the words as they appear. There is one small point I would like to make in regard to danger. I remember the Joint Under-Secretary stating in Committee that during frosty weather, when taps containing pure water become frozen, someone on the premises might use for drinking purposes water which was intended for sanitary purposes. I submit that that is not likely to occur. This Bill provides that a sufficient supply of pure water should be available, and this means that it must be available at all times. Surely, satisfactory frost precautions should be taken. I am certain this Amendment would do much to promote economy in water rates payable on factory premises, to conserve supplies of pure water, and to assist the industries of Scotland in running their administration effectively.
This Amendment, which I support, is a permissive Amendment or rather would turn the Clause into a permissive Clause. I know of certain villages and towns in Scotland where the water supply is not so abundant that it would be able as it now is to meet greatly increased demands upon it. It is possible that, under the housing schemes which we hope will be under way in a very short time, very considerably increased demands will be made on existing water supplies. In one town which I have in mind, the water supply, which is used for processing purposes in industry, is drinkable water. If there is a large-scale housing scheme in that town, the town may well be faced with the expense of creating a completely new water supply at a very greatly increased cost, and that cost will in turn fall upon industry, which already has as many costs as it can bear. The wording of the Amendment appears to me to contain a safeguard against any misuse of non-drinkable water. According to the Amendment, if the local authorities are not satisfied that non-drinkable water is being limited in its use to the purposes of industry, they will not consider it reasonable that it should be so used. Consequently, if these words are inserted, the Clause appears to be entirely permissive. The local authorities will really control the whole situation with regard to water supplies. I cannot see that there would be any disadvantage to the Government in accepting the Amendment. In certain circumstances the Amendment may well be a valuable one, and if it is not a valuable Amendment, then there is power under it not to use the water in an improper way. Therefore I beg to support the Amendment.
I support the Amendment. There are two aspects of the economy question. The first is that which has been emphasised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Glasgow (Colonel Hutchison), and the other is the economy to be effected by the users. Obviously, we do not wish to impose extra costs on industry, and if we can in any way aid the recovery of water and its re-use, especially where industry is paying for water by the meter, I think we should do so. Again, I think industry will be more likely to use water lavishly for sanitation purposes if it is enabled to recover the water. It is, in point of fact, very much more satisfactory for a large factory to be encouraged to recover its water. There is a necessity in many cases for economy in the use of water by the public. This is an additional reason for supporting the Amendment. It is important that we should effect this kind of economy. With regard to the question of cross connections, any industry which is large enough to set up plant for the recovery of water must obviously have its own plumbers who will know correctly the layout of the factory. An objection to the Amendment would be the danger that, owing to some faulty connection, the water used for drinking or even washing purposes might be polluted, but if an industry had a plumber who knew intimately the water system, I do not think that danger would arise.
4.15 p.m.
In the Committee on this Bill the hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeen and Kincardine Western (Colonel Thornton-Kemsley) moved a similar Amendment to which there were a great number of objections. For instance, it included only cooking and drinking water, and not water for washing. The Amendment now before us is a much more skilful piece of Parliamentary drafting. Let me deal with the points raised in it. With regard to central heating, the Amendment is not very strong from that point of view. I have gone over a few facts about central heating in modern factories in Scotland, and so far the amount of water used for that purpose is comparatively small. The strength of the Amendment is to be found in the amount of water used for sanitary arrangements. I am told that every time one pulls the plug, it uses three gallons of water.
I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to be careful in his references to distilleries. I would not like it to get about among consumers of the beverage that the stuff is made with unwholesome water. The distilleries are using wholesome water, and I would not like anybody to think that the whisky associated with Scotland is made from unwholesome water. There are ample safeguards in the Bill with regard to that, and no Amendment is needed in that respect.
With regard to sanitary arrangements, I have examined the Amendment sympathetically, but the universal opinion of the medical officers of health is against any change, and in matters of water supply one cannot throw over the opinion of the medical officers of health. Between now and the time when the Bill goes to another place, I will consider the matter with a view to seeing how far we can give effect to the Amendment, while excluding places that make food and drink, so that there will be no danger of anything but wholesome water getting in where food and drink are manufactured. As far as my inquiries go, there is no demand for this Amendment from places such as Glasgow, where there are ample supplies of water. The demand is from outlying districts. I will, however, look at the matter again to see whether we can give effect to the Amendment, with the possible exception of factories that deal with food and drink, in respect of which I do not think we would be justified in taking any risk. It may well be that we shall have to insert some provision to see that there are properly authorised persons to look after these things and make sure that there is no chance of a mistake.
I have looked at the Amendment with an open mind. I wish I had had it in Committee so that we could have discussed it there and, perhaps, have come to a better arrangement. I did not see the Amendment until Saturday and have had practically no time to consider it yet, but I will consider it carefully. Hon. Members opposite have gone a long way to meet me and I can go some little way towards meeting them by seeing if an Amendment in this sense cannot be incorporated when the Bill goes to another place.
May I just say one word in withdrawing the Amendment, as I desire to do in the circumstances? I appreciate the way in which the hon. Member has met me on this matter. I agree that he has only had since last Saturday, the day before yesterday in fact, and a weekend was very little time in which to consider these things. I would have put the Amendment down earlier had I had more time but, as the hon. Member well knows, consultations have been going on since we met in the Committee stage of this Bill. Of course, we are thinking about the future, and, while I do not doubt that there is very little water used for central heating at the present time in existing factories, we are looking 50 years ahead—I hope longer than that—and are thinking of all the new modern factories that are going to spring up in Scotland, not only in Glasgow and other built-up areas, but in the country places where there are such excellent facilities and ample water supplies for the kind of industries we want to attract North of the Border. We are all at one in that, I am sure.
The hon. Gentleman, I think, made a great point when he said that he could not flaunt the opinion of the medical officers of health. Of course, he cannot on medical matters, but surely this is a point as to whether there is any possible danger of central heating or sanitary water being used for drinking, cooking, or washing purposes. Naturally, the doctors would say that if people drank water that had been through central heating or sanitary systems that would be unwholesome and could not be allowed. The question is much more a technical one as to whether there could be, in fact, in factories to be built in the future, any connection between these two systems. I submit that there could not. I welcome the assurance which the Joint Under-Secretary has given that he will look at the matter between now and when the Bill goes to another place. I know that he will give weight to what has been said this afternoon and to the representations made to him through other sources, and with that assurance I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
CLAUSE 54.—(Provision of supply of water to other houses.)
I beg to move, in page 34, line 7, at end, insert:
"(5) Where a local authority are satisfied that an owner on whom such a notice requiring the execution of any work is served is unable to comply with the requirements thereof by reason of his being unable on reasonable terms to acquire any necessary rights to take water from a suitable source or to lay pipes through any land not belonging to him or to do any other work, the local authority may at the expense of the owner themselves take such steps as are necessary for the execution of the work, and for that purpose may exercise the like powers as a local water authority may exercise under this Act for the purposes of their water undertaking."
I think this Amendment gives effect to a point that was raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Dumfries (Major Macpherson) when we were in Committee namely, that a person might want water run into his home or his abode but that the owner of intervening property might have some very good reason of his own for keeping the first person from getting what was desirable, a decent water supply. When we were in Committee we thought that the hon. and gallant Member for Dumfries went possibly too far, in other words, that it would not be fair if the owner of a house, even if he had a genuine grievance, could send a postcard to the other party saying, "Dear Sir, Within so many weeks or months I propose to dig up your place and lay pipes." We thought that was going too far, but we are proposing in this Amendment to say in effect that if a person wants a water supply and is kept from getting it by the interference of a tenant or owner with ground intervening, then the local authority shall be called upon and if, in all the circumstances, that local authority consider it desirable that the work should be done, we propose to give them the power to insist that it shall be done. I think this meets substantially the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Dumfries on the Committee stage, and I trust the House will accept it, as I think it is the most workmanlike arrangement. It retains, to some extent, fairness to all parties and does not allow them to act arbitrarily one to the other.
I should like to thank the Joint Under-Secretary for the way in which he has devised a very ingenious plan to get round this difficulty. I think it is an admirable plan. I have no hesitation in accepting the Amendment and I think all Members on this side of the House agree.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 85.—(Saving for protective Clauses in other Acts.)
I beg to move, in page 54, line 42, at end, insert:
"other than a provision with respect to the discharge of compensation water into any watercourse."
The next two Amendments are really consequential and hang one with the other. They are both drafting Amendments and are rendered necessary by another Amendment that we accepted in Committee when, near the conclusion of the proceedings, the Member for Edinburgh Central (Mr. Gilzean) and Edinburgh, North (Mr. Willis), raised the question of compensation water. They made out what the Committee thought, and what I thought, a reasonable case for their very reasonable Amendment, so we accepted the Amendment. But, as I warned the Committee, there have had to be certain consequential Amendments. At first, I thought they might have to amount to seven or eight, but the real effect is only two, and these, as I have said, are consequential upon the Amendment we accepted in Committee.
May I ask whether this raises the whole question of compensation water and makes more drastic the proposal of the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Gilzean)?
This Amendment does not alter in any way the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh. Its purpose is to make things simple and clear, since, otherwise, the original Amendment would not have the meaning it was desired to have.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made:
In page 55, line 6, leave out paragraph ( c ).—[ Mr. Buchanan. ]
CLAUSE 87.—(Repeal and amendment of local enactments.)
I beg to move, in page 55, line 19, after "provision," insert:
"in any local enactment, being a provision."
This Amendment is also a drafting Amendment. It is merely to clarify the wording of subsection (1) of this Clause by making clear that only provisions and local Acts relating to the supply of water to the authority making application are covered by the power of the Secretary of State. It is merely to make that power clear and to show that we have not a roving commission.
Amendment agreed to.
4.30 p.m.
I beg to move, in page 55, line 21, leave out "Provided that," and insert:
In the Amendment we attempt to deal with that marginal position. We allow a local water authority to give notice to determine an arrangement and, in the marginal cases, to come to an arrangement with the other local authority. Failing that, the Secretary of State can be asked to decide the issue. We think the Amendment will give effect to the suggestion made by the hon. and gallant Member without at the same time allowing a local authority to act highhandedly towards another local authority.
I am grateful to the Government for the way in which they have met the point of view which I put forward, and for meeting it in a much better way than I proposed. In Clause 87 (1) the Secretary of State is given power to vary a local enactment. By the Clause as it was drafted that could be done only at the instigation of a local authority which was supplying water to another local authority. It is well known that local enactments frequently contain closely balanced provisions which have been the outcome of hard bargaining between competing interests and often between local authorities. Therefore, any local authorities concerned in cases of this kind should have the right to approach the Secretary of State for revision of the terms that have been agreed upon between them and embodied in the local enactment. I understand that this is now provided for in the proposed Amendment, and I therefore have great pleasure in supporting it.
Amendment agreed to.
FIRST SCHEDULE.—(Procedure for making Orders and making and confirming byelaws.)
I beg to move, in page 57, line 35, leave out from "be," to end of paragraph 7, and insert:
"subject to special Parliamentary procedure."
This Amendment, and the two following Amendments hang together in prescribing the use of a new procedure. The last two are adaptations of the original wording.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made:
In page 59, line 20, leave out from "be," to end of paragraph 16, and insert:
"subject to special Parliamentary procedure."
In page 60, line 23, leave out from "be," to end of paragraph 22, and insert:
"subject to special Parliamentary procedure."—[ The Lord Advocate. ]
SECOND SCHEDULE.—(Compulsory purchase Orders.)
Amendments made:
In page 62, line 17, after "publish," insert:
"in the Edinburgh Gazette and."
In page 63, line 34, at end, add:
"The provisions of paragraphs 8 to 10 of this Schedule shall not apply to an order which is confirmed by Act of Parliament under Subsection (4) of Section two, as read with Section ten, of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945, or under section six of that Act, but except as aforesaid shall have effect in relation to an order to which that Act applies as if for the reference in paragraph 8 to the publication of notice of confirmation of the order there were substituted a reference to the date on which the order comes into operation under the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945, and as if in paragraph 9 the words from 'and shall become operative' to the end of the paragraph were omitted."—[ The Lord Advocate. ]
FOURTH SCHEDULE.—(Provisions to be incorporated in Orders relating to water undertakings.)
I beg to move, in page 78, line 14, leave out "the court," and insert "arbitration."
This is a very small matter. It is just an allocation to a smaller amount of expenses, and it seems much more appropriate to be done by arbitration than by a court.
I agree that this is a small matter and, therefore, I am not going to say very much about it, but there seems to be a growing tendency to think that arbitration is obviously superior to court procedure in all manner of cases. I have never been able to see, with some experience of both, where that superiority comes in. We do not get any better judges and the proceedings are not more speedy. As a general rule, they are very seldom any cheaper. I should have thought that, in a small matter of this kind, where a court was sitting and there was no very great difficulty in going to it, the court of first instance would have been better, since it is usually well acquainted with dealing with practical matters in a practical way. Can the Lord Advocate tell us whether there is any special point about this, or whether this is an instance of a general drift in Government Departments away from courts of law which sometimes say rather nasty things about Government Departments? Arbitration proceedings do not have the same opportunity of saying things in public and may, therefore, be more popular.
There is no very special reason for this change, but I do not feel very strongly about it. The same matter came up during the Committee stage. I do not think the right hon. and learned Member was present on that occasion, but if he was, he allowed the alteration to be made in an Amendment to Clause 54 (4). It seemed to me that, as the change had been made there, it might conveniently be made in the Fourth Schedule. I do not think there is very much in it. It is a small matter which seems peculiarly appropriate to arbitration, and I suggest that the Amendment be allowed.
Surely the House is entitled to a little more adequate explanation on this point. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) has asked the Lord Advocate whether this is just another case of giving the Executive, in this case the Socialist Executive, the right to refer matters to arbitration rather than to the ordinary courts of justice of the country, simply because arbitration proceedings avoid unpleasant questions which might otherwise be raised. My right hon. and learned Friend put a specific point to the Lord Advocate but he made no attempt whatever to answer it. He said that it was a small point and that the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead was not present in the Committee when the previous Amendment was raised. I agree that this Amendment before the House is consequential on that previous Amendment. However, I must repeat that the Lord Advocate made no attempt to justify the Amendment; he merely said it was a small matter. If it is a small matter why are the courts of law, the fount of justice of the Realm, put to the one side and a resort made to arbitration.
It seems to me that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead hit the nail on the head, as he generally does, when he suggested, and very rightly suggested, that this was just another case of drift and that the Executive today—a Socialist Executive armed with powers such as no Socialist or Labour Government was ever armed with before—has begun this drift. [ Laughter. ]Hon. Members opposite laugh, but perhaps they will see before this Parliament is much older or at any rate when the next election comes that there is great truth in the old adage, "He laughs best, who laughs last." Time will show. On this question raised by the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead, I certainly think the House is entitled to a fuller explanation than has been given by the Lord Advocate. In this House as far as Scotland is concerned, he represents the legal side and we are entitled to the full benefit of his vast legal knowledge to tell us exactly what is behind this and show if he can that it is not merely a question of the Socialist Executive trying to shift responsibility or avoid an awkward question. He should really justify to the House on the Report stage why arbitration has been substituted. He as an eminent lawyer ought not to want arbitration substituted for a court of law. I eagerly await his explanation.
Allegations have been made by Members opposite that are most unjustified. I do not know whether right hon. or hon. Members have read the Clause in question, but it does not concern the Government at all; it concerns the undertaker who is the local authority. This imputation that the Labour Party is afraid to have its actions examined by the public in a court of law is certainly not justified in this Clause. It is probably a typical piece of Tory-Beaverbrook propaganda, and we expect something rather different when we are discussing, coolly, Amendments on a Bill of this sort. This Amendment deals with quite a small matter—the manner of distribution of charges between a number of people by the local authority, and it certainly seems to me that it is a matter that can be settled quite easily without recourse to courts of law. I think the Government are justified in making this Amendment, because it seems to me much more suited to the case.
Amendment agreed to.
4.45 p.m.
I beg to move, in page 78, line 25, after "adapted" insert "or so used."
This Amendment and the two following arise out of an Amendment proposed in Committee by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Cook). We did not accept his proposal, but I was asked, I think, by the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. M. MacMillan) what I proposed to do. I said that I proposed to accept the Amendment in spirit, and I have now put down these three Amendments to meet the point. The position previously was that we had ample power to deal with fittings that were defective and wasted water, but the hon. Member for Dundee sought to deal with fittings which, while they may not become obsolete by use or anything like that—for we had power to deal with that type of thing—were not suitable for the purposes concerned. We are making it clear in this Amendment that we have power to deal not only with defective fittings, but with fittings which are not suitable for a particular use, and that fittings adaptable and necessary for a particular job should be used.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made:
In page 78, line 26, leave out "under the last foregoing section."
In line 28, leave out "any necessary repairs or alterations," and insert:
"repairs or alterations or to substitute another type of fitting, as they may reasonably consider necessary."—[ Mr. Buchanan. ]
FIFTH SCHEDULE.—(Enactments Repealed.)
I beg to move, in page 85, line 39, column 3, at beginning, insert:
"In Subsection (6) of Section fourteen the word 'water'"
The purpose of this Amendment is to correct an oversight, in Section 14 (6) of the Local Government (Scotland) Act of 1929. The effect will be that what has been found in the Bill, will now be in agreement with the form of the Waterworks Clause, and the difficulty which has been created by the 1929 Act, will be got over.
Amendment agreed to.
4.49 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
In doing so I want to say a slight word on criticisms, and to state my own personal views and I think that, of the Secretary of State. One or two people think we have put down a fair amount of Amendments to this Bill on the Report Stage. I hope that will not be taken as criticism of any Government. I think we ought to use the Scottish Grand Committee and this Report Stage and Third Reading for the purposes of Amendment. Any Government could take a strong line and say, "We are amending nothing," and not have a single Amendment, but I trust that as long as we go into these matters with decent feeling, and have a decent outlook, that the mere number of Amendments will not deter us from doing what we think proper to amend a Bill satisfactorily.
The Government have accepted Amendments to this Bill from almost every quarter of the House. We think that those which have been accepted make the Bill a better Bill than it was when it was introduced. We think the Bill, which provides for a wholesome water supply for the people of Scotland, is a desirable step to take and is a landmark in the improvement of the conditions of our people in this connection. I claim no great credit for myself in connection with this Bill for, to some extent, it was the work of those who were in the Department before me, but, in so far as I have had connection with it, I can say that I trust this Bill, when it becomes an Act, will do something to see that a wholesome water supply is made available in abundance to every citizen in the country, and that the Bill, with the help of the local authorities, will translate this into a reality.
4.52 p.m.
I would not intervene at this stage, were it not for the remarks made by the hon. Gentleman at the beginning of his short speech. Far from thinking that there are too many Amendments in this Bill, I am rather surprised that there are not more. I should like to assure the hon. Gentleman that he will not be criticised from these benches by reason of his having been of an accommodating spirit, and having carried forward a number of points to Report stage which, perhaps, one not so accommodating might have insisted upon having settled in Committee. I think I speak for a number of my hon. Friends as well as myself in this. The hon. Gentleman, if I may say so, has conducted this Bill in a harmonious and reasonable spirit, and I think he will agree that we have done the same for our part. I think also that this Bill is a good augury for the future conduct of Scottish legislation in this Parliament, and I hope that we shall see as reasonable Bills and that we on this side will, therefore, be able to take as reasonable an attitude. I agree that this Bill represents an improvement, and I do not want to do more than mention again what I said on Second Reading, that one has to bear in mind that all these desirable improvements depend on finance at the end of the day. I am afraid that unless steps are taken soon to improve the system of local finance in Scotland, this Bill is only one of many the administration of which will be held up by that particular difficulty. However, I do not wish to stress the point. I think this is a good Bill and we shall not oppose its Third Reading.
4.56 p.m.
I am entirely at one with the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) in his remarks regarding the general value of the Bill, but there are a number of points on which we might still like to have a little enlightenment. I want, in passing, to make a suggestion to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House that when a whole Scottish Parliamentary day is avail able in the future, we might be allowed to make better use of it. When there are so many more pressing problems concerned with Scotland, to devote the whole day to the mere Report stage and Third Reading of a Bill on which we have already reached such a very wide measure of agreement—
The hon. Member has ample opportunity, for there is the Adjournment.
Really, that is not a reasonable answer. I am not blaming the hon. Member, or laying any charge at his door at all. It is for those who arrange the business of the House. We have been refused repeatedly a full day for the discussion of Scottish industrial and employment problems. It is not a new thing. If may be a deplorable legacy from past Governments. For a new Bill we would appreciate having a whole day, but that is not longer necessary for this Bill at this stage; whereas a whole day of Parliamen- tary time could well be occupied by the discussion of very serious Scottish problems with which we are all exercised.
Hear, hear.
There are several points in that connection which have been pressed from this side of the House, and from that very Bench, in the past. The late Secretary of State for Scotland is reported as saying:
"The Secretary of State for Scotland, who alone can introduce Scots legislation involving a public charge, has a whole tin trunk full of Bills, all drafted and ready at the Scottish Office awaiting a chance of promoting. I understand there are about 50 of these hapless documents. Only two or three of them every year have a chance of seeing the Statute Book."
That is all I want to say on that point, and I hope this will not be thought to be a too extravagant use of time, even if it does only afford to our English colleagues a very pleasant half-holiday on such occasions.
I must ask the hon. Member to confine his remarks to the terms of the Bill.
Yes, Sir, I will do so from now on. In any case I was heading for political suicide in criticising my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. The Bill in general is, from our point of view, a very good Bill, and we look forward to the local authorities of Scotland putting their backs into it and really getting down to solving a problem which has been neglected for ages, and especially in the rural areas of Scotland. The legislation including this Bill is more generous in its financial provisions than any Water Bills which we have had previously in Scotland. The amount of money given recently for the purpose of providing water for Scotland, had it been given before the war, would have been much more valuable than in these days, but that is not the fault of this Government, and, even now, it is a welcome change to be talking in terms of millions rather than in terms of thousands or even scores of thousands. This Bill will affect Scottish industry as well as the domestic users of Scotland, and we hope that the fullest advantage will be taken of providing advance water services for the new industries which we hope to see coming into Scotland. We hope to achieve not only comfort and convenience in the homes and lives of the people in rural Scotland—and believe me that will be necessary in order to keep our people in the countryside and to keep the Scottish race alive, instead of emigrating, as people did after the last war—but to see the fullest use being made by the local authorities of the opportunities given by this Bill to attract new industries into the Highland areas of Scotland.
That, again, will have to be a part of what we expect to see from the Government of coordinated and comprehensive plans for Scottish development. As yet, and with roughly only six months of life, they have not perhaps had the opportunity to produce such comprehensive plans, but we expect and we demand from these Benches—with more justification than the Benches opposite—that our Government show themselves ready and able in all these connections within the lifetime of this Parliament to plan thus, and to perform.
I would make a local point about one example of bad handling in connection with these matters in the Bill. In the county of Ross and Cromarty the Department of Health and the County Council there are going to spend well over £1,000,000 upon the mainland of Ross and Cromarty to provide water supplies for 30,000 people; whereas they intend to spend on the island of Lewis less than a quarter of a million pounds on 20,000 people. That is an absolutely disproportionate spending of the money allocated for the water scheme. I hope the Secretary of State and his Department will take every care to see that there is a fairly proportioned plan of expenditure as between the 20,000 people on the island of Lewis and the 30,000 people on the mainland of Ross and Cromarty. The Minister is well acquainted with all these problems which he has discussed with me and other Members and as he has said he intends under this Bill that, whether the people are crofters or squatters that they will all equally benefit by it and pay equally for all benefits. No one will dispute the justice of that point of view.
There are one or two other difficulties in the constituency which I represent. We have West Uig, where we propose to develop water power which is absolutely essential for the whole island of Lewis, and yet that is one of the areas that is going to be left out. The island of Bernera is in very much the same difficulty so is the Park area. It is only just and right that everyone should have the opportunity of enjoying the amenities which are being provided and for which they are to pay. Members of this House should remember the spirit of the White Paper and the promises that were made by the then Secretary of State. If they represented the real intention of that Government, they should be all the more sincere and all the more real today because of the Government which is now in power.
There are still a number of points which have to be settled. Let us make sure this time that the local authorities are in a position technically to carry out the work which they will be empowered to undertake under this Bill, and make certain that there is a fair allocation and distribution of the money involved. This is a matter which is very largely left in their hands. It is right that it should be so. We have, however, had much unhappy local experience in the past; and some of it has been unfortunate to say the least of it. For instance, I would mention that at Stornoway employment exchange alone there are 1,200 unemployed men; and yet, with all these schemes which the local county authorities could have in hand on housing, repairing, and making roads, and even the water scheme, there is no reason at all why there should be any man unemployed in the Stornoway area. It is completely indefensible; but we are told that unless the local authorities themselves put in their claims to the Government to develop these particular works there is nothing that can be done about it. The point is that they have not yet made their claim to the Government and the Government, therefore, can do nothing until they hear from them so that the various schemes are to be initiated. I hope that everything that can be done will be done for our people, so that they may be in a position to share all these amenities; because, lacking these, our people will be driven away, as they have been before, out of the Islands to places which have these amenities and a reasonable prospect of employment for them.
In these remarks upon the Bill my criticism is not directed against the Minister himself or against the officials of his Department but rather against those local authorities with whom our past experience has not always been too pleasant. I am not blaming the Minister. I am greatly reassured to hear that he has in mind to deal with the whole question of our Scottish rural amenities, whether it be for crofters or squatters, and I know that he will deal with these points when we are in consultation with him from time to time; and that we shall be able to work together by consultation and cooperation before the Bill is finally through to help solve these smaller problems to which I have made reference.
5.5 p.m.
The hon. Member who has just spoken has, if I may say so, rather over-stressed the point he intended to make with regard to the undue amount of time which has been allocated to this Bill to-day for the Report stage and Third Reading, but I think I can say without offence to him, that in dealing with the very many valuable points which he raised, he could not be accused of having wasted the time of this House. Further, I should have thought that on a Bill like this dealing with the supply of water, without which none of us can exist for any length of time and having regard to the facilities which exist in Scotland for the provision of water, he would on more mature reflection have agreed that to have a whole day for the discussion of a matter like this, was not giving an undue amount of time.
In justice to myself, may I say I did not suggest that the whole day was being wasted on the Water Bill—
On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Is this conversation in Order?
I was under the impression that the hon. Gentleman was offering an explanation and was not going to make another speech.
If I may say so, I have known the hon. Member since he came into this House in the 1935 Election and I have always listened to him with a great deal of respect. I did not want to leave him under the impression that I had mistaken him, or to go out of Order on the Third Reading of this Bill—
I think I must remind the hon. Member that he is not really speaking to the Bill and, therefore, is out of Order
With very great respect to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I only intended to speak on several of the points on which the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Macmillan) has spoken in great detail and I am proposing to take only about three minutes to answer him. I should like to support what has been said with regard to taking the Report stage and Third Reading of this Bill on a Monday, which is a most inconvenient day—
That is not within the terms of the Bill and the hon. Member is certainly out of Order.
I have, with respect to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, heard a great many points of Order raised and permitted, time and time again, about similar matters, on the various stages of a Bill.
Not on the Third Reading.
I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and I will now deal strictly with what is in the Bill, but I would not have indulged in this digression if the hon. and learned Member for Exeter had not intervened in the discussion.
As the hon. Member has referred to me, I would point out to him and to the House that I am not learned, neither am I the hon. Member for Exeter.
I beg the hon. Member's pardon, and I hope he will acquit me of any intention of doing him an injustice.
It would be very helpful if the hon. Member would come back to the Bill.
Yes, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but I have been subjected to a good deal of interruption. I should think an Opposition Member should be able to deal with a speech from the other side—
If the hon. Member cannot confine himself to the Bill, I will have to ask him to resume his seat.
With great respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I was referring to what the hon. Member for the Western Isles said and I was going to leave that point, but I was interrupted and in the course of saying but 20 words I was called to Order. Having dealt with those two matters, may I address myself strictly to what is in the Bill? There is a great deal which could be said but I would like to support what has been said by previous speakers, that this is a Bill which should be welcomed by every hon. Member, in principle. It should be supported by every hon. Member in every quarter of the House. Every Socialist Member should support what it hopes to do for Scotland. But up to the present we have not heard much from the Government benches. Scotland is a country where there is certainly plenty of water, but the difficulty has been to make proper use of that water for the benefit of the five million inhabitants. I think it was my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S C. Reid) who said that this Bill might easily founder because of the totally inadequate financial grant made, or offered, to Scotland for water supplies. I am told on very good authority—and this is certainly relevant to the Third Reading of the Bill—that the proposed grant will fall short of what is necessary, even in the case of Aberdeen-shire, by at least £1,000,000, and I see that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Aberdeen and Kincardine Western (Colonel Thornton-Kemsley) agrees with that. It it is really the case, that Aberdeenshire alone requires £1,000,000 more than is proposed for the whole of Scotland in this Bill, splendid though it undoubtedly is in its scope, I ask how is it to be made a workable proposition?
On a point of Order. I put this point of Order with great respect because I may have to reply, and I would like to know what part of this Bill deals with a grant.
For the moment I am not certain that any portion deals with a grant. Perhaps the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. McKie) will state to which Clause he is referring?
If this is out of Order I will desist, but the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead made the point. I will merely say that whatever the financial position may be, no hon. Member hopes more than I that this Bill will really bring benefits by way of water supplies to the inhabitants of Scotland. The hon. Member for the Western Isles gave instances in his own constituency of the lack of water supplies and I want to say a word or two about my constituency. For 15 years I have had the honour to represent a rural area of 1,600 square miles comprising the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright and the county of Wigtown. Whereas in Kirkcudbright there is a good supply of water, even there the distribution of this essential human necessity leaves much to be desired. But, in Wigtownshire, the position is very much worse. It is a poor rateable county and I only hope that the provisions allotted will be sufficient to allow local authorities there to distribute the water properly. It is a county where villages have grown up around places where there is a certain supply of water and it is true to say that conditions in the county generally in regard to supply and distribution of water are deplorable.
That is in regard to housing conditions, but it does not end there. If we were to make adequate provision for the people of Wigtownshire, we would have to assure adequate water supplies, as this Bill seeks to do, but apart from housing of human beings, there is another very important thing to take into consideration which applies to both counties. That is the farming industry, particularly the dairy industry. In Wigtownshire there are as many cattle as human beings and on hardly any farm is there anything like an adequate supply of water to enable the necessary cooling and cleansing operations in the production of milk to be properly carried out. That is a deplorable state of affairs and I hope this Bill will go some way to put matters on a better footing. Many of these farms depend on wells which are contaminated with bacilli and in which the water is of too high a temperature to cool the milk properly. I hope that in this poor county—poor from a rateable point of view—in the Southern extremity of Scotland, a real advance will be enabled by this Bill.
I would like to say a word about Clause 87, which raises the question of compensation water rights. That, I submit, is in Order. From a certain angle I regret the drafting of this Clause. It has been strengthened—from my point of view un- duly—by acceptance of an Amendment moved by, I think, the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Gilzean)—a constituency I contested 17 years ago with disastrous results to myself. I regret that this Amendment was accepted, because I think it goes too far. I think it goes far too far. The Clause as now drafted goes far too far in giving the Secretary of State and local authorities power with regard to this question of compensation water. In other words, as I understand it—the Joint Under-Secretary will correct me if I am wrong—it will now be possible to take the whole of the compensation water. That certainly marks quite a new and radical departure in water legislation. I am not at all surprised at the quarter from which this Amendment emanated to strengthen this Clause, which I think was quite strong enough already, because the city of Edinburgh has been a great delinquent in the past with regard to the proper provision—I think I am in Order in saying this—of water for the citizens of the Scottish metropolis. It seems to me that by agreeing to the strengthening of this Clause by the acceptance of this Amendment, the Joint Under-Secretary and the Government are merely going to allow local authorities to be as niggardly today and in the future as they have been in the past with regard to the proper provision of water supplies. In this case my remarks apply to the city of Edinburgh because the town council must have promoted this Amendment.
I will give just one instance in support of what I say. This is vital in connection with the whole question of compensation water. In 1934, the town council of Edinburgh promoted under the Parliamentary Private Legislation (Scotland) Act—which is a very good illustration of local devolution and perhaps some hon. Gentlemen in this House do not know it exists, but it does and you have four Members, two from each House, sitting in Scotland threshing out private legislation Clause by Clause and line by line. As I say in 1934 the town council of Edinburgh promoted a Bill. They were short of water. They promoted a private Bill to allow them to take, I think, 75 per cent. of the compensation water which they were bound to discharge down the River Tweed from Talla in Peeblesshire. That was in 1934, 39 years after that Talla reservoir was first constructed. This is the point. I fear this plenipotentiary power with regard to compensation water may induce local authorities to be niggardly. In 1895, when that first reservoir in Peeblesshire was constructed for the water supply in Edinburgh, the pipes to conduct the water some 40 or 45 miles were made at least twice as big as was necessary because the town council of Edinburgh then thought that the citizens of Edinburgh would become even cleaner in the future than they were then, and would require more and more water. They were made bigger because the "city fathers" at that time envisaged a supplementary, an additional reservoir to the Talla reservoir in the adjacent catchment area known as Fruid and Menzion Burn. Well, the town council never undertook that scheme although unemployment was beginning to raise its head in the early years of the 19th century.
Thirty-nine years after that the water consumption of Edinburgh had gone up, as their predecessors knew it would, by leaps and bounds, and after a very dry summer, they had to promote a provisional order under the Parliamentary private legislation procedure to allow them to take, so far as my memory serves me, 75 per cent. of the water which they were bound to discharge down the River Tweed. I hope I shall not be accused in making this plea for compensation water, of merely making a plea on behalf of fishermen. I make it from the point of view of the citizens and the country as a whole, and from the point of view of public health and sanitation. Who likes to see a dry river bed? Who would like to see the River Tweed dry? It is very much drier now than it was before the provisional order was approved. Incidentally, I might say that provisional order was not agreed to in Scotland, it was thrown out in March, 1934, and in December, 1935, the Edinburgh Town Council had to promote another Bill which came and was thrashed out on the floor of this House and which, of course, gave them what they had been unable to gain 18 months previously.
I hope, and I hope sincerely, that this question of the compensation water which is promoted by Clause 87 of this Bill, will not induce local authorities to go on being as niggardly in the future as they have too often been in the past with regard to this subject. I remember that the Edinburgh town council in their private Order brought as their "star turn" witness the city water engineer, Mr. Reid, and in the course of his examination-in-chief he was asked what he thought about compensation water. He said, "It is just a vain sacrifice to the river god." I am afraid that is not a point of view with which I can agree. He said it perhaps because he was looking at the matter on utilitarian lines. I welcome this Bill and I sincerely hope Clause 87 will not lead to more shortsightedness on the part of local authorities, but that we shall have, so far as Scotland as a whole is concerned, and so far as the financial grants permit, a real step towards private water on a lavish, generous scale to the benefit of the inhabitants of Scotland as a whole.
5.29 p.m.
Although I have had the privilege of addressing this House once before, I have been warned by one of the older Members that the second occasion can be worse than the first. However, I only want to state briefly why I think this Bill, which gives legislative form to the proceedings of the White Paper and consolidates laws governing the administration of water undertakings, should be allowed to go through. Like other Members, I have been concerned about some of its defects. Some of those have now been amended. However, it gives promise of at least a better organisation of our water supplies to meet the growing demand for that commodity. That demand comes from town and country alike. One illustration was given to us in regard to housing—the provision of bathrooms for new houses and a similar provision in regard to existing houses in so far as circumstances permit. There is, of course, the question of industrial development. That will involve a tremendous amount of water in the future. Emphasis has been laid today upon the demand by some of the more thirsty industries and one thirst-quenching trade, but perhaps the industry that demands most in this connection is the ancient and most important of all—agriculture. Finally, I will take the instance of dairy farming, which is the only example I am going to take.
In the past, I believe, under more primitive conditions, people thought that, so long as the milk can was kept far enough away from the water pump, the interests of the consumer would be best preserved. Since then more advanced ideas have prevailed. In this connection, I think the Bill has been regarded very much as a matter for the counties, but, indeed, it is also a matter for the towns and cities, and, as a representative of a city constituency I would like to lay some emphasis upon this aspect. During my experience as a member of the Glasgow Public Health Committee, and especially during the war years, I have found that one of the most worrying problems with which we had to deal was that of the milk supply, especially in the winter, when milk had to be obtained from very distant parts of the country and where milk was produced under conditions in which the standard of hygiene was somewhat lower than that prevailing in the adjacent counties from which the normal supplies were drawn. The question of hygienic conditions for the production of milk, which is in growing demand and will continue to be in growing demand, becomes very important indeed. One could go on to discuss questions of stock farming and other branches of agriculture, including horticulture, and stress the same things. When we are warned in the summer, concerning our use of water for gardening purposes, we are up against the same thing.
The question of water plays an important part in the whole field of food production, and, while I say that, and while I have in mind, chiefly, the interests of the great masses of city consumers of food, I do not forget, of course, that the Bill does provide another very important thing. It promises to reduce, to some extent, the drudgery now prevailing in the country districts, which applies in the main to women and children, in carrying water in very inadequate supplies over long distances. There, certainly, is a relief that is long overdue.
5.33 p.m.
Much water has flowed under many bridges since the time when Sextus Julius Frontius wrote his contemporary treatise upon the layout, use and purposes of the aquaducts of ancient Rome. Since that time, there have been many periods in this country when whole communities have depended upon local water supplies from hills, lochs, rivers and from shallow wells drawing upon surface water. During the greater part of our history in Scotland, there has been virtually no public supply of water. A communal supply of water is at once one of the earliest and one of the most backward of our public utilities. The growth of the public supply of water in Scotland has been haphazard, uncoordinated and unimaginative. If I wanted to find three words which best express the intention and achievement of this Measure, to which the House is about to give a Third Reading, I would say that those three words would be conservation, co-ordination and control.
The Bill places clear and binding duties upon the three parties. It places duties upon the Secretary of State for Scotland, upon the local authorities and upon the owners of property. First of all, the duties which are placed upon the Secretary of State are to promote the conservation of water resources and the provision of adequate water supplies by the local authorities. The duties that are placed upon the local authorities are, first of all, to provide a supply of wholesome water to every part of their district where such a supply is required for domestic purposes and where it can be provided at reasonable cost; and, secondly, to take that supply to such points as will enable consumers to lay surface pipes from the mains at a reasonable initial cost.
Thirdly, the duties of owners of property are again twofold. In the case of new buildings, they are to provide a sufficient supply of wholesome water in pipes, and, in the case of houses, to lay such supplies to a sink in a well-lighted and well-ventilated place. In the case of existing houses which have not already got an inside water supply, it is the duty of the owner to instal this unless it is not reasonably practicable to do so, in which case the supply has to be brought as near as possible to the house.
Dealing first with the duties of the Secretary of State, I think that, looking back upon the time that we have been discussing this Bill on the Floor of the House and in Committee, if I have any regret at all, it would be that we have not been more precise about the desirability of providing for the interconnection of local authority schemes. It is true that, under Clause 2 of the Bill, it is provided that the Secretary of State may require a local water authority to formulate proposals for the joint use, with any other water authority, of any existing or proposed new source of water supply. In Clause 14, of the Bill, it is provided that two or more local authorities may, with the consent of the Secretary of State, combine for any of the purposes of any provisions of this Bill. It is true also that, in Clause 19, we provide for supplies of water in bulk to and by local authorities. These are all provisions which might be used to ensure the interlocking of local authority supplies, and my regret is that we were not more precise about it. What I would like to see would be the interlocking of local authority schemes on a regional basis, and the establishment of a pooled reserve supply within each region. That, I think, is still attainable, and I do regret that we have not more precisely stated its desirability.
Now a word about the duties of local authorities, particularly in regard to country districts. I cannot too strongly stress the importance of a wholesome water supply for the countryside. The hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. McKie) and the hon. Member for Kelvingrove (Mr. J. Williams) both spoke about the importance of a wholesome water supply to the agricultural industry. It is important, not only for that industry itself, but, indirectly, because it also helps the towns. A contaminated water supply to a farm may be the cause of disease in cattle which can be transmitted, through the milk, to the towns. A flourishing agriculture can hardly be possible in these days without an ample supply of good water. The country district presents a most difficult problem. I know the Joint Under-Secretary realises this, and also what a difficult project it is in country districts with scattered populations, a high cost per head of the population and a low rateable value. All of these things combine to make it imperative that the question of cost should be faced squarely. It is recognised in this Bill—and I am glad it is so recognised—that it is important and reasonable to propose that every citizen, whether of the town or the country, should have the opportunity of using a wholesome and ample water supply. It cannot be denied that, broadly, the citizen of Scotland, at the present time, has that opportunity if he lives in a town, but that, in many cases, he has not that opportunity if he lives in the countryside.
The man who, throughout his life, has only had to turn a tap to get an adequate supply of wholesome water can only realise with difficulty the handicaps faced by people who have to get their water from some well right away from the place where they live. It is not only a physical hardship which is involved; there is a danger to health, both from the reliance upon a supply which may be contaminated—and which often is contaminated—and from the absence of wholesome water at times when it is needed for surgical or medical purposes. This situation must be put right, and this Bill is a welcome step in that direction. The hon. Gentleman the Member for the Western Isles (Mr. MacMillan) seemed to think—unless I misunderstood what he said—that the Bill was generous in what it proposed to do. If he thought so from a financial point of view, I would not agree with him. I see the hon. Gentleman is shaking his head, so I must have misunderstood what he said. The Bill provides that local authorities may borrow money for purposes under the Act for a period not exceeding 60 years, but more than this will be needed if rural areas are to be properly served. We must not base our policy upon ability to pay. In the case of roads we provide material assistance from national funds, and I believe the time will come when we shall have to do this for the provision of water supplies also.
Before I leave the question of local authorities, I would say one word about the increased demand for water. We must anticipate this demand and we must meet it. I believe that the pre-war consumption of water per head in Edinburgh—which was mentioned by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Galloway—and in Glasgow was between 50 and 60 gallons a day. In that city of learning, St. Andrews, it was as much as 70 gallons a day before the war, but the view is more likely to be correct that this large consumption was due more to the requirements of the golf courses than to the cleanliness of the students. That view is supported by the fact that in Oxford—in respect of which I looked up the figures for purposes of comparison—the consumption of water per head of population was only about 40 gallons a day.
We are putting a very considerable burden upon the shoulders of owners of property, particularly upon owners of rural properly. This was exactly the kind of burden with which we assisted them in the days when grants were available for the reconditioning of cottages in the countryside. That reconditioning nearly always took the form of the provision of grants to assist with the installation of a piped water supply in the house. That help is no longer available, and I am quite certain the Joint Under-Secretary would agree that something must be put in its place if the owners are to be assisted to fulfil the obligations placed upon them under this Bill.
Finally, I would say that I am not one of those who complain about the number of Amendments placed upon the Order Paper by the Government. I believe the Bill has been much improved by Amendments put down as the result of discussions in Committee and outside. I should like to pay my tribute to the work done by the Joint Under-Secretary of State the hon. Gentleman the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) during the Committee stages and during the whole time this Bill has been before the House. It is within the knowledge of many hon. Members that he was urged to take an appointment which carried with in Cabinet rank when the present Government was formed, but that, putting aside all thought of personal ambition, he chose rather to occupy the Ministerial Office he now holds in order to help the people of Scotland secure a better livelihood, and better houses and conditions in their daily life. I honour him for that. I have been delighted with the way in which he has met us. He has a disarming and ingenuous manner, though I may say, in parenthesis, that anyone who knows him is not deceived by his pose as a simple man, though it is one which endears him even to his opponents. I should also like to pay a tribute to the framers of this Bill. The hon. Gentleman the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland reminded the House that this was a Coalition Measure. It is in that spirit that we on this side of the House have accepted it. We have tried—and I have been as guilty as anyone, I suppose, of occupying the time of the House and Committee—with our Amendments, and in all the criticisms we have made, to put them in a spirit of constructive helpfulness.
5.49 P.m.
I do not think there is any doubt that there is general agreement with, and welcome for, this Bill. It is a good Bill and one which Scotland sadly needs. At this stage of the proceedings I would like to add my little tribute to the manner in which my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary has conducted this Bill through the House. I, as a new Member, have been particularly appreciative of the kindness he has shown and of the great assistance he has given in getting the Bill to this stage.
This Bill gives to Scotland what Scotland wants—a national water policy. It now makes it possible for everyone in Scotland to have an adequate supply of wholesome water. It fairly and squarely places upon the owners certain obligations. Similarly, it places certain specific obligations upon the local authorities and the Secretary of State, the result of which, if the Bill is used properly, can be that Scotland will have a real national water policy. It will have an adequate water supply for domestic and industrial purposes. It also sets up a National Advisory Council. I hope my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will use this council. I trust that in its operation he will, if possible, endeavour to see that it co-operates with the other body in Scotland dealing with the water supply of Scotland—the Hydro-Electric Board—and that it will go further than that, and that there will be co-operation with the National Council of Industry, because if we are to get new industries in Scotland we must know where we shall require an adequate supply of water for industrial purposes. There is a large number of other activities which I visualise such a National Advisory Council will undertake. I trust my right hon. Friend will make of this council a reality. Let us have a little bit of planning in Scotland, even if it is only in the sphere of the water supply.
Another thing this Bill does is to make certain concessions with regard to compensation water. I do not want to go into that in detail because I understand my hon. Friend the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Gilzean) desires to deal with this, but I would say that, in spite of the criticisms which have come from the Front Bench below the gangway opposite, this Clause will have the effect of saving local authorities in Scotland thousands of pounds, and because of that it is worth it.
There is a third point which I would like to raise. It affects, in the main, the large burghs. As a result of the provisions of this Bill, the large burghs will now become responsible for all stopcocks in the street. That is a good thing, and we welcome it. That is something which was in the English Bill. But, as I understand the position, whereas in England there is another stopcock on the rising main into the premises, there is no such stopcock in Scotland, so that one of the results which we can expect from this Bill is that local authorities in large burghs will be faced with the possibility of very heavy contingent liabilities. These stopcocks in the streets can be interfered with by anybody. They can be opened, closed, or broken by anybody, but under the Bill the local authority has to accept the responsibility for any flooding or other contingent liabilities which may occur as a result of damage to them. I trust my hon. Friend will ask the Scottish Office to watch this. I had asked before that something should be included in the Bill to deal with that, but apparently it has not been possible. I trust the Scottish Office will keep an eye on this matter to see to what extent it does affect Scottish local authorities. It might be possible for local authorities to introduce certain measures to deal with this—I do not know—but I do hope that it will be watched In conclusion, I would only say that we expect a lot from this Bill. The people who can give us what we expect are the local authorities and the Secretary of State. If the local authorities are lackadaisical in accepting the obligations placed upon them by this Bill, I sincerely trust that the Secretary of State will not hesitate to prod them into activity.
5.56 p.m.
Reference has already been made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Aberdeen and Kincardine, Western (Colonel Thornton-Kemsley) to the duties that are laid on the three main parties concerned in this Bill—the Secretary of State, the local authorities and the private owners. I would like to say a word about the relationship between the local authorities and the Secretary of State. On the local authorities is placed responsibility for providing a supply of whole- some water. On the Secretary of State, assisted by an advisory committee, is placed the duty of becoming virtually the planning authority for the whole country. The vital point, it seems to me, is that the local authorities should be able to feel that they have the whole support of the Secretary of State and that the Secretary of State is not simply going to dictate to them; in other words, that their essential responsibility is left to them. I do not think there is much likelihood of the local authorities being backward in this respect, because if they are they will not get much financial support, and they are looking to the Secretary of State for that. I think their plans, where they fit in in general with the plans of the country, should be accepted rather than overruled, or that the local authorities should continually get the impression that they are being overridden by a superior authority. I would suggest in that regard that the advisory body should not be approachable only by the Secretary of State, but that the local authorities themselves should have direct access to the advisory committee. I suggest that to the hon. Gentleman the Joint Under-Secretary, and I hope he will see his way to agree to that point.
The second of my points is that it is obvious, with costs as they are today, there is going to be a very considerable increase in rates as a result of the extension of water throughout Scotland. That increase in rates is not going to fall evenly because there are many burghs, large and small, which already have satisfactory schemes. Obviously, two things can happen. Either the cost can be spread evenly throughout the country or it can be spread evenly throughout the county, but in that regard I would say that this increase in cost has to be looked at as an investment in Scotland. Everybody in Scotland is going to benefit from that investment, and therefore there is a case for a fairly even spread throughout the country. The next step lies with the Government, for although it is not part of this Bill it is directly connected with the Bill that financial support is needed before many of the schemes, particularly those involving housing, can be gone ahead with.
My last point is a technical one. If hon. Members will refer to the Fifth Schedule they will see that Section 131 of the Public Health Act, 1897, remains operative, the effect of which is rather bound up with the Amendment proposed by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Forfar (Major Ramsay) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Aberdeen and Kincardine, Western, regarding the number of people who should be entitled to make demands for water supplies. The 1897 Act, among other provisions, leaves it open to 10 people to make appeal to the sheriff. Clearly what one must avoid is the possibility of 10 people making an appeal to the sheriff, the sheriff giving his ruling, and the people being still dissatisfied then going to the Secretary of State who will overrule the courts. I would like to have the opinion of the Lord Advocate on how this Bill and the 1897 Act fit in together in that regard. As I have had a great many Amendments down on this Bill, might I add my personal appreciation of the most admirable and courteous handling of it, and the lengths to which both the Joint Under-Secretary and the Lord Advocate have gone, in meeting all my Amendments.
6.2 p.m.
I would like to pay tribute to the Joint Under-Secretary and the Lord Advocate for their kindness, courtesy, patience and good will when this Bill was going through both the Committee and the House. In my own mind, I have no doubt of the value of this Bill. I am persuaded there is nothing in a country such as ours is that is so important to the community—and incidentally so cheap to the community—as the plentiful supply of water. We who live in urban areas have very little conception of the difficulties and the limitations that hedge round those who live in remote places. This Bill, if it does anything, will give those people the opportunity of getting what is probably the most essential thing to life. I speak from experience. For a long time I, like many others of my generation, have been for a considerable number of months in places where one was happy to get half a bottle of water for 24 hours. That sort of thing taught us to appreciate the value of water.
I must necessarily make reference to what were to me the rather regrettable charges that the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. McKie) brought against the city which I, along with some others, happen to represent. Those charges were quite unfounded. The position with regard to water compensation is this. The question of the amount of compensation to be put down into a river when water is impounded at the particular place, is generally based on the estimated rainfall. Nine times out of ten there is no adequate evidence as to what the real rainfall is. Again, nine times out of ten after an estimate has been made the rainfall invariably falls far short of the estimate, but the amount of compensation water to be put into the river has been based on that estimate and it is a fixed quantity—it is embodied in words in an Act of Parliament. The result is, very often the local authority finds itself with a very bad balance. The hon. Member for Galloway spoke eloquently but most mistakenly about the alteration that was made with regard to compensation water. It was not 75 per cent., it was two-fifths, a quite different figure. Perhaps the eloquence that the hon. Member shows where this question of water is concerned is based on the fact that he represents a milk producing country, consequently the question of water is of immense importance to him.
I would like to emphasise what has already been said regarding the decision of the Secretary of State to accept the proposal to have an advisory committee. I agree with the hon. Member who said we ought to have water on a regional basis. I think there are far too many water authorities throughout the country, and if by any possible means that water could be regionalised it would mean we would get water even cheaper than it is at the present time—and goodness knows it is cheap enough. Even through a meter you can get a thousand gallons for 8d. If some of the things people drink were on the same basis, I am sure they would be very satisfied with it. We ought to stress the need for regionalisation, because it will have the effect of making water cheaper than it is at the present moment. I do not know that I have a great deal more to say. Perhaps it would be as well if I do not say much more, because my friends who know me will say that they quite understand me—preferring, as I do, water to any other liquid—waxing eloquent on it. I reiterate that I think the Joint Under-Secretary and the Lord Advocate have done a good job. They have been patient, tolerant, concessionary, and, altogether, I am not with- out hope that this new Bill, when it goes on the Statute Book, will be of great value to the people of Scotland.
6.10 p.m.
Like every other hon. Member of this House I welcome this Bill most heartily. I welcome it because I think it is a good Bill. I welcome it because I think Scotland needs it badly and I believe that it will benefit Scotland in the highest sense possible. I believe it will benefit the country districts of Scotland especially. I welcome it especially, because I believe it will benefit my own constituency to a very high degree. I wish good luck to the Bill in its application as a practical Measure. As regards the Third Reading, I will be very brief I seek clarification on one point only. It is a matter which has been raised by four or five hon. Members, and on both sides of the House. In Clause 8 the words "reasonable cost" appear, not infrequently, and if the hon. Gentleman who winds up this Debate would be so good as to give me a few words of explanation, they would be most acceptable. What do the words "reasonable cost" in fact imply? I think every one would agree hat it is absolutely essential that some time we should start to count the cost. I realise that the first, and urgent, necessity is to supply water to our people in Scotland, but nevertheless I am sure that every hon. Member of this House will agree that we must some time count the cost.
I would like to bring forward one example from my own constituency. It is a rural constituency, and a very good plan indeed has been put forward to solve the local water problem. Unfortunately, I understand, the scheme which has been devised is to cost approximately £2,500,000. I would like to have from the hon. Gentleman when he winds up, some indication of whether a local authority, in a case like this, can assume that it will get more money from the Exchequer, or that it will get no more money from the Exchequer and will therefore have to scrap its good scheme. I want to know what, in fact, the local authority will have to do. I am perfectly certain that clarification on this point would be of the greatest assistance to local authorities and I would be very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for an answer to my question.
6.13 p.m.
I also wish to add my tribute to the hon. Gentleman the Joint Under-Secretary and to the Lord Advocate, for the way in which they have helped us in connection with Amendments from all sides, during the Committee stage and on the Floor of the House. I would also like to associate myself with those who good naturedly doubt whether the simple "Johnnie Raw" which the hon. Gentleman so happily portrayed, is as simple as one thinks. I think there is a good deal of natural cunning and, above all, immense experience of the hard things of life, but it is not much use our arguing with him on that point, although it is very valuable to have his experience. The two points I want to emphasise do not in any way involve throwing cold water on this Bill, because I believe it to be an excellent Bill and I very much hope that it will be implemented in every respect. My own constituency covers a very big area, partly rural and partly covered by a large and flourishing city. I would not suggest that it is as large as some of the other great cities in Scotland, but we do get both sides of the problem, urban and rural. I am interested in the question of water supply from both points of view but most particularly on behalf of rural areas because that is where the real difficulty lies.
I was brought up to ask myself two questions before doing anything. The first was, "How much is it going to cost?" and the second, "Where is the money to come from?" I do not think it is a bad thing to be brought up on those lines, and I think it applies as much in public life as in private life. We must realise, when we go into the question of costs, that all the money, whether it comes out of the rates or the taxes, must come out of the pockets of the people of this country. The idea that there is a bottomless purse which can be drawn upon ad lib is fatal, and I hope that authority, when drawing up plans in connection with this Bill, will be guided by sensible finance. At the same time, I hope that they will not let that hold them back where anything can possibly be done.
My other point concerns the advisory committee, or whatever body it is, that is to help the Secretary of State in coming to decisions such as those required of him in Clause 21—in assessing the quantity of compensation water, etc. The Clause says:
6.17 p.m.
I would like to add my meed of praise to the tribute of the hon. Members who have spoken in support of this Bill. It is quite true that this is one of the best Measures dealing with the amenities of the countryside which Scotland has had, but there is one point which I desire to make, I regard this Bill as the forerunner of many other Measures which I sincerely hope the Government will bring forward to bring much-needed amenities to the countryside. In that respect, it will be necessary to watch very carefully how the money which the Treasury will grant is to be spent. I hope that the Secretary of State for Scotland will be very careful to see that the expenditure of this money will not mean a perpetuation of the present scattered accommodation for people living in the countryside. I would be the last to oppose the introduction of much needed water amenities into isolated houses, but I sincerely hope that in doing so, the Secretary of State will satisfy himself that the dwellings to which water is being laid on, are of a sufficiently high standard to justify this expenditure of public money.
May I pursue this point a little further. I visualise, in the future, our countryside being a place where we shall have more and more of the community life. If that is to be the case, so far as Scotland is concerned, then we must be very careful how we introduce and apply this first Measure to bring amenities to the countryside, because in the future we shall have to consider the possibility of introducing electricity, a better transport system, and many other amenities which will go to make up a better country life for our people. Therefore, it will be very important for the Secretary of State for Scotland to have a watchful eye and to see that this grant is not extravagantly spent and that isolated cottages and dwellings, many of which really ought to be destroyed, are replaced by new community centres where the people of the countryside can have all the benefits of modern amenities and cultural developments, education, transport, and the other services that can be given to people who live in communities. I make that point because I think it is of some importance that it be made at this stage.
But in other respects, representing a rural constituency as I do, I welcome this Bill. In the part of the constituency which will benefit the greatest from the Bill, that part known as the county of Berwick, we have a scheme which will involve the expenditure of some £600,000. Therefore, I am looking forward with some interest to the manner in which this grant is to be allocated. If I anticipate rightly that there are other counties that will require an expenditure of, probably, £500,000 or over, then this total grant, generous as it is for Scotland, will not go very far in meeting the total needs of the rural population in Scotland. It is thus all the more necessary that the local authorities, and the Secretary of State for Scotland, and all who have responsibility for administering this Act, shall see to it that the money is wisely spent and, as far as possible, directed to the future development of a plan for the countryside under which people could live in communities rather than, as at present, in an isolated manner. There are isolated cottages which have no amenities; and to bring amenities to them would be utter extravagance and the perpetuation of that kind of accidental growth of our countryside, which was not planned and which belongs to the past ages. In the future we must have a countryside planned so as to secure all the benefits which can be brought to people who live a community life.
6.23 p.m.
May I say a word or two in reply to the Debate? In the first place I should be wrong if I did not say that even an old Parliamentarian is touched by hearing so many nice things said about him. This is the first time the Lord Advocate and I have ever piloted a Bill. In my long years here I never anticipated piloting anything through the House, and I thank hon. Members for the very kind things they have said tonight. As regards the points which have been raised, you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, would, I think, stop me if I went into the question of grant, because I cannot deal with the whole question of the grant. It is not in the Bill, but outside it.
I cannot deal with the question of how the local authorities will spend it. But this I can say: that so far as possible, the Secretary of State and those responsible for administering the income will certainly see that the amount available, is spent in the best possible way, to the greatest advantage of Scotland as a whole. May I deal in a sentence with the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Dumfries (Major N. Macpherson)? That point is dealing with the Public Health Act and is a rating question, not a question of water supply only. That is a question of water rating and, therefore, it must be retained. We have repealed the other sections and our reason for retaining it is that it deals with water supplies and deals with rating as a whole. The Lord Advocate will look at the point again to make certain of it.
The other points raised mostly concern the question of water supplies and the advisory committee. Hon. Members can take it that we shall look for the best advisory committee we can get. It is always a matter of opinion, what is the best advisory committee. But there are two helpful things—public opinion in Scotland and, not the least, the activities of Members of this House. I frequently think we are inclined in this House to belittle ourselves as against some outside advisory body. No one could be more helpful to a Secretary of State, or to an Under-Secretary, than Members of Parliament, not merely in raising questions but by constant communication with the Minister or with any other person concerned. In addition to the advisory committee, they can constantly keep a check on planning water supplies. For the rest, I welcome the comments that have been made. We think the Bill is a workmanlike one. We have amended it, and we have shown readdress in doing so. We have tried to improve it. The Secretary of State hopes that with the aid of the advisory committee and with the aid of the local authorities which, we think, far from being very lax will in the main try to implement the provisions of the Bill, and by general co-operation in the provision of water, this Bill will mean a better future for Scotland.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms (House of Commons)
Mr. Alexander Anderson, Mr. Haydn Davies and Captain Marsden added to the Select Committee on Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms (House of Commons).—[ Mr. Mathers. ]
United Nations Organisation
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Mathers. ]
6.28 p.m.
I wish to raise certain matters concerning the work and organisation of the United Nations Assembly and of the special agencies and other bodies for whose activities the Assembly is made ultimately responsible in the Charter. I believe the moment is timely for raising these issues now in this House, because the United Nations Assembly is actually in session. The whole situation is still fluid. These matters are actually under discussion in the Assembly. Most of them will not be discussed seriously until the second part of this session next Spring, and if in the meantime there is a manifestation of public opinion and Government policy in this House, I believe we have a real chance of influencing the course of events in the Assembly.
The Charter does not go much beyond the Covenant in its general obligations, but it does go far beyond the Covenant in gathering up and bringing inside the world organisation and harnessing for constructive purposes, the great social and political forces in the world. In the first place, it does so through universality. In the second place, it does so by providing far more amply and explicitly, for social and economic obligations, activities and machinery, than the old League Covenant did. It is this latter aspect of the United Nations that I wish to speak on more particularly. The very fact that the range and importance of economic machinery and activities have been so greatly expanded in the Charter brings with it certain dangers. There is a danger that all this multifarious machinery may produce a good deal of talk and few decisions; that there may be confusion, conflicts of jurisdiction and overlapping, with all the waste of time and energy which ensues when you have a large number of bits of machinery doing similar jobs, with no central body to co-ordinate and give drive and direction to their activities. For that reason, I hope that the Government will pay a great deal of attention to giving adequate powers to the Social and Economic Council that is elected by the Assembly to be a co-ordinating and centralising body for the social and economic activities carried out by the auxiliary machinery, the specialised agencies, the Councils and the Commissions.
The Social and Economic Council should have power, whenever there was a disagreement between any of the auxiliary bodies, to direct and co-ordinate their activities, with authority to settle conflicts of jurisdiction and to determine what were the best methods of interpretation. That is in case of disagreement. If they can get on without the intervention of the Social and Economic Council, so much the better. If not, the Council should definitely have power not merely to consult and discuss but to give orders and take decisions in the last analysis. As part of the pursuit of coherence and centralised direction in this field, I hope that the Government will pay adequate attention, through its delegation on the General Assembly, to the need for establishing unified and comprehensive functional organisations, absorbing all the pre-existing bits of machinery in this field, left behind by the League of Nations and by pre-first World War international machinery. For instance, the old International Public Health Office in Paris should be completely absorbed by the new Public Health organisation and the International Institute of Agriculture at Rome should be absorbed by the new Food and Agricultural Organisation, and so forth. The Assembly should have definite powers to vote the Budget for all these organisations. There should be a consolidated budget for the whole United Nations and all its auxiliary organisations. On the whole, the indication of the Preparatory Commission's Report to the General Assembly is that this matter is being given attention. But I note that they make the objection that some of the members of the United Nations are not members of the specialised agencies; the membership is not the same. Some of the members of the United Nations have not gone in on these specialised agencies. But, on the other hand, all the members of the specialised agencies are automatically and ipso facto members of the United Nations Organisation. Any decisions taken by the Assembly would be binding on all the States members of the specialised agencies, and they should, therefore, through the Assembly, be directed to introduce any changes necessary in the constitutions of the specialised agencies and endow the Assembly with the power of voting the budget of these agencies. For these reasons, I hope that the Government will press this point and insist upon adequate centralisation in this field as well.
Lastly, as regards the specialised agencies of the Social and Economic Council of the Assembly I hope that the principle of functional representation in the International Labour Organisation will be applied to these new agencies, or, at least, to the general conference of these new agencies. In the International Labour Organisation, I would remind the House, the States members are represented not only by a Government but also by delegates of workers' and employers' organisations. I think that, in the same way, States members should be represented, for instance, in the Food and Agricultural Organisation not only by their Governments, which, in this case, would mean by representatives of the Ministries of Agriculture and Food, but also by representatives of such bodies as the National Farmers' Union and the Union of Agricultural Workers. In the same way, the economic organisation should, in its general conference, have representatives not only of the Board of Trade but also of national trade union centres and co-operative societies and of the federation of industry and chambers of commerce. All the way through in these organisations, it would be important that the Assembly should decide on the I.L.O. principle of functional representation. The I.L.O. itself requires reform to bring it up to date with the postwar world. Its 1919 constitution is still alive, but is a case of arrested development. It was based on assumptions that have passed away in the world of 1946—on the assumptions of liberal capitalism, that Governments hold the ring in economic life, while the trades unions and employers, representing the opposite entities, and both, independent of the State, fought it out in the middle.
The whole social set-up, which corresponded to the Manchester School of Economics, has changed vastly and is still changing. Employers' organisations are no longer small enough to concern themselves with hours and conditions of labour in their factories. They have now consolidated into vast national organisations which concern themselves with matters of national and international economic policy. In this country, I believe, the Federation of British Industries and the Employers' Confederation have amalgamated, or are on the point of amalgamating. In other countries, similar developments have taken place. These employers' organisations, who are working very closely with the State, are interested in matters of national economic policy. They delegate the problem of factory conditions and hours of work to their managers, and the managers also have begun to organise on a national scale.
Finally, the Victorian conception that property was more important than life is no longer held in most countries, and certainly not on these benches. The I.L.O. philosophy is based on the idea that a handful of employers, because they own factories, should count for as much, when it comes to voting, as representatives of the workers, although the workers are far more numerous and hours and conditions of labour affect the workers directly whereas they affect the employers only indirectly. I believe that in order to get back to the I.L.O., having regard to the Soviet Union and various other States with a Socialist or near-Socialist internal economic structure, and in order to bring the I.L.O. into line with the kind of world in which we live today and are likely to evolve tomorrow, its constitution should be revised so as to provide for representation by member States through, for instance, three Government delegates, two-workers' delegates, and one managers' delegate. Then comes the problem, raised recently by the World Federation of Trade Unions, of direct representations of the W.F.T.U. and similar bodies on the basis of a voice with no vote in the General Assembly and with both a voice and a vote in the Social and Economic Council of the Assembly.
I hope very much that the Government will press for the granting of these requests and for applying this principle to all similar bodies in the Assembly of the Social and Economic Council. I wish to reply in advance to the constitutional objection that it is not possible to do these things under the Charter. I reply, in general terms, that the Charter is a political instrument and not a juridical Statute. It is a permissive and not a restrictive document. You can do a great many things under the Charter if you want to do them. On the particular point of representation on a consultative basis in the Assembly of the W.F.T.U. and similar bodies, I note a section in the Report of the Preparatory Commission to the Assembly—on page 42 of the Report—entitled "Reciprocal Representation." The Report there discusses the desirability of the Assembly admitting representatives of the specialised agencies to participate in its deliberations, or at least in the deliberations of its committees—with a voice, but without a vote.
Could my hon. Friend say whether that applies to inter-governmental or non-governmental organisations?
The Report merely mentions specialised agencies—and this is the principle which I wish to draw to the attention of my right hon. Friend. It says:
As for the Economic Council, its membership is, of course, determined by the Charter. The Social and Economic Council consists of 18 States elected by the Assembly, and those States cannot vary their membership as a Social and Economic Council. But Article 71 of the Charter says: opted certain distinguished persons as assessors, and gave them a voice and a vote in its deliberations. I see no reason why, if it were considered a good arrangement, the Social and Economic Council should not do the same thing. I do not see that there is anything in the Charter that would forbid them acting in this way if it thought this the proper policy to adopt. I very much hope the Government will secure the adoption of that policy.
I did not catch who it was that was given a participation.
The League Health Committee co-opted certain distinguished persons—I forget their names.
I am only quoting a precedent, not because it fits exactly, but because it contains a principle which could be applied, with suitable modifications. Even more important than these ancillary organisations, is the General Assembly itself. I believe that the United Nations Assembly as at present constituted is likely to prove dangerously defective for the purposes for which it has been designed and for the functions which are attributed to it in the Charter, As regards its functions, the United Nations Assembly begins where the League Assembly left off—that is, the functions which have been given it in the Charter are an extension of the functions that the League Assembly actually adopted in practice and which went somewhat beyond the rather vague indications in the Covenant.
In regard to election of temporary members to the Council, judges of the Court, and the Economic and Social, and Trusteeship Councils, the General Assembly of the United Nations functions in much the same way and by much the same voting system as the League of Nations Assembly. But there has been a great expansion of the social and economic functions of the United Nations Assembly as compared with the League Assembly, and the gentlemen's agreement concerning the method of voting by majorities in the League Assembly, instead of the provision requiring unanimity in the Covenant, has been raised in the Charter of the United Nations to a statutory provision binding on the Assembly. The Charter has greatly expanded the functions of the Assembly as a regulator and clearing house for the whole world organisation, and as a forum for the discussion of great issues of policy and principle. Thus, the Charter states that the Assembly may Assembly's Constitution with its functions becomes even more striking if you look at the method of voting the budget and apportioning expenses among States' Members. In the Covenant of the League unanimity was required for this purpose by the Covenant. It is true that by a gentlemen's agreement the minority accepted majority votes in the League Assembly Committees. But that constitutional power to require unanimity lurked in the background and during my years of duty as a member of the Secretariat I myself saw, on several occasions, how that latent power of veto was invoked in the negotiations that led up to the framing of various parts of the programme of this or that League organisation. In other words, the gentlemen's agreement, like all gentlemen's agreements, was not legally binding but could be and was, on occasion, broken by States who felt strongly about an issue.
In spite of the fact that States were protected by the unanimity rule in framing the budget, in spite of the fact that the budget was small—only some £1,000,000—and in spite of the fact that it was rigidly limited and forbidden to grow, it was the favourite point of attack by the enemies of international co-operation. The point they always made was that the great Powers were paying most of the budget of the League but were being outvoted by the small States when it came to deciding for what the budget was to be used. Those charges were easy to answer in the days of the League, because of what I have just said. But under the Charter of the United Nations the budget is voted by a two-thirds majority of an assembly in which the small States have equal voting power with the great, one vote each. Because of the much wider range of social and economic activities it is accepted, and rightly, that the budget of the United Nations will be a much larger budget than that of the League of Nations, and that it will be expanded and will grow in proportion to the range of those activities. But the more that happens the more striking will be the real contrast between the fact that the great Powers, who pay most of the budget, will be out-voted by the small States when it comes to determining the programme paid for by the budget and apportioning the expenses among the member States who are to do the paying. That is a bad thing.
I believe it is essential to bring the constitution of the United Nations Assembly into line with its world parliament function. In order to do so it will be necessary to revise Articles IX and XVIII of the Charter, so as to provide that the assembly representatives should be elected by their national Parliaments, by proportional representation, each representative having one vote, with the number of representatives from each country varying on a scale based, roughly, on the respective contributions of the States members to the budget of the organisation, but heavily weighted in favour of the small Powers. For instance, in the League budget the scale ran from something like one unit to 110 units. That was the variation in the amount each State had to pay. This country paid no units and certain central American States paid, or more often did not pay, one unit. I am suggesting nothing so drastic as that. But I think variation might run from a minimum of five delegates to a maximum of 45, and that this scale should be proportionate to the shares of the member States.
Can my hon. Friend say how many that would mean for the whole Assembly?
There would be only two States who would have the maximum. There would be three others which would have something in the neighbourhood of 30 to 35, and others would range down to five. I do not believe that the total numbers would be much greater than the existing Assembly, where you have delegations composed of not only five delegates but, often, five deputy delegates and an indefinite number of advisers or experts of one sort or another. I agree that this is one of the problems which will have to be faced, and I am coming to that in a moment. At this juncture, I merely wish to draw attention to the fact that this idea is not so new as it might appear. It was pressed at the end of the first world war by the Labour Party and the T.U.C. Indeed, it was pressed so strongly that the idea actually came through, in a watered down form, in some of the official plans which were submitted at the Peace Conference for the constitution of the League of Nations.
For instance, in the Foreign Office Memorandum, entitled "Memorandum Prepared for the Consideration of the British Government in Connection with the Forthcoming Peace Settlement," there was a section entitled, "Arrangement for Popular Discussion," which said:
Now I come to some of the objections. First, as my right hon. Friend said, that a body of this sort would be too large and unwieldy to be handy as an international debating assembly—
I did not say that; I only wanted to know what was the total.
I believe my right hon. Friend, who shared my experiences at Geneva for a good many years, would agree that the full assembly is not the place where the cut and thrust of debate takes place. It is more an occasion for set speeches by the delegates to the assembly, which present their points of view. The real debate comes in committees and sub-committees. One of the difficulties is this: whereas an assembly composed of national Government delegates is cut up into handy units of 50 to 60, a delegation composed of elected representatives to Parliament, each having a vote, may be in the position of a Parliament composed solely of independents. I believe that the Speaker of such a Parliament would be in a considerable difficulty in deciding who should be called, and why and when.
I think there would have to be, as part of the rules of procedure of such a body, a provision that a group of 10 or 15 representatives would be necessary to select one member for speaking, and that no representative could belong to more than one group. I believe also that a minimum of 30 representatives would be required to put a point on the agenda, or to move an adjournment, or nominate candidates for a post. I believe that very often, however, it would be found that once this body got into its stride the delegates in it would tend to group themselves, on most issues most of the time, not as national delegates, but as international parties of the Left, Right and Centre. That would be a wholly desirable and laudable development.
The second objection is, What is to become of the authority of Governments in a body of this sort? Parliaments, I would point out, are part of the machinery of government, and Governments are embedded in their Parliaments. It would follow from the system of election by proportional representation that each Government would automatically have a majority in its assembly delegation exactly proportionate to the majority it had in its own Parliament, and it would, of course, be open to the Government to say how it wished to be represented in its delegation majority—whether it wished the heads of the delegation to be some members of the Government, whether it wished on any particular occasion to make full use of the fact that its delegation majority would represent government policy, or whether it wished to act merely in a semi-official capacity, in the same way as the Government delegates acted in a semi-official capacity at the Geneva Economic Conference in 1927. The authority of the great Powers would be even greater in this Assembly than it is in the present Assembly, because the voting system would be adjusted according to budget payments, and the large Powers would have large delegations in which their Governments would have the majority, and in one case, at least, I imagine the majority would be 100 per cent.
A further objection may be, What about the United States, which do not have the Cabinet system, but have the Presidential system of government? In 75 years it has happened only on three occasions that the Administration has not had a majority in Congress. The modern technique of American Government, as shown by the late President Roosevelt's insistence upon two-party representation from the Senate in the American delegation to the San Francisco Conference, and I believe in the delegation to the United Nations Assembly, has been to try to draw Congress directly into the preliminary work of international conferences, to share responsibility between the Administration and Congress for making decisions, instead of the Administration taking the decisions first and hoping that Congress will ratify them afterwards. From the point of view of the rest of the world, that is a development very ardently to be desired.
The Soviet Union should have no objection to a development of this sort, because it would be entitled on any reasonable showing to the maximum delegation, in which it could find room for representatives of all the 16 Soviet Republics that, by the Soviet Constitution, are entitled to have foreign relations of their own. It would also share an advantage with all Socialist and Communist Governments—the advantage that the working class movement is already internationally organised in the World Federation of Trade Unions and the Co-operative Alliance, and will, in all probability, again be organised in the political field in some sort of new working class international. Therefore, all Socialist and Communist Governments will find themselves advocating policies for which there is support in some members of many delegations and in most members of some delegations.
Another objection that has been made to these proposals is that totalitarian or near-totalitarian States, with 100 per cent. majorities in their assembly delegations, would have an advantage over States where democracy meant the party system and differences of view. I do not attach much weight to that objection, because I believe it would be more than counteracted by the educative and liberalising influence of bringing colleagues from countries where free debate is not indulged in as it is here, to an Assembly where the practices of Parliamentary democracy would be observed. I believe that would be a very valuable thing from the point of view of those delegates and of their colleagues in other countries. I can imagine nothing better calculated to promote a spirit of mutual understanding and confidence than for the elected representatives of the people from different countries to sit together in the same committees and conferences working at the same tasks for common ends.
The point is then made that this kind of thing would be dangerous, because whereas in an inter-governmental Assembly Governments are restrained by a sense of responsibility, nobody would quite know what somebody would say in an international Assembly of elected Members of Parliament. That is one of the attractions of the proposal from my point of view, because I believe those dangers are the kind of dangers that you avoid only at your peril. However, I would point out that, first of all, the Governments would be embedded in the majority of their own delegations to an Assembly of this sort, and secondly, that Members of Parliament are, after all, responsible persons. They are responsible to their Parliaments, parties and constituents When they went to an international gathering of this sort, they would speak not as individuals but as spokesmen of the groups that would designate them as their spokesmen. Finally, I believe that not a bad definition of the international spirit which we need to make peace secure is the frame of mind in which men and women of different countries are willing to band themselves together in a common cause, even if it means criticising each other's and their own Governments.
A further objection is that it would not be nice for a Government which had a majority at home to find itself in a minority on an Assembly vote and its own Opposition voting in the majority in the Assembly. Of course, it is not nice for a Government on any occasion to be outvoted by an opposition. But I do not think it would be an unhealthy thing that Governments should be subjected to this peril. Besides, it would be only a difference of degree from the situation that would arise if in this country the Government were to advocate a policy which the Opposition opposed and the Government were then to go to the Assembly and be defeated on that policy. The Opposition would be entitled to crow, and to rub it in. That would be all part of the hazards of public life and government.
I come to the position of small States under this scheme. What would they get out of this arrangement as a reward for sacrificing their equality of voting power in the inter-Governmental Assembly? In the first place, I think they would be ready to see that the objection of equalitarian voting on a budget in spite of the fact that the great Powers did most of the paying would be a reasonable objection. During the war, there was in London what was tailed the International Assembly, which was quite unofficial, but which was made up of fairly influential representatives of the various emigré Governments and groups in this country, who represented a fairly nationalist and conservative version of the public opinion of their respective countries, and certainly for the most part stood well to the right of the existing régimes of their countries. This International Assembly passed a resolution saying: delegations tended, particularly on economic and social issues and issues of further international organisation, the development of the rule of law and so forth, to line up and to vote by international groupings approximating to international parties of the Left, Right and Centre, the bigger opportunities there would be for big men from small countries to assume positions of international leadership—similar for instance, to that assumed by General Smuts in the British Empire in the last war and similar to those assumed by men such as Nansen and Branting in the League of Nations Assembly in the first few years, when it did think of itself and tried to function as a world Parliament, although later it lost that characteristic.
The national interests of small States tend in any case to be identified with the common international interests of most States. The representatives of small States in the Assembly would find allies and partners among the representatives in the delegations of the great Powers. They would find the whole proceedings of a world Parliament would be much more concerned with questions of justice and less with considerations of force than a diplomatic conference. International morality would have a chance as against international expediency. Welfare politics, for the first time, would become the staple of discussion instead of issues being judged in terms of power politics. Reasons of humanity might have a chance of prevailing over reasons of State. The voice of the people, not only the voice of the Governments, would be heard in the deliberations of the United Nations. Those I believe are decisive advantages that would lead small States to approve and support a proposal on these lines.
Last but not least, what does this country get out of such an idea? It gets one thing that the House may be surprised to hear me mention. It would get the maximum chance of national unity in foreign affairs. I do not believe myself that national unity in foreign affairs is a practicable proposition. I believe that foreign affairs are a reflection of domestic affairs and that the differences which divide us at home are bound to be reflected in international affairs. That, incidentally, was the view taken by the present Prime Minister in his book, "The Labour Party in Perspective." That applies at the present day, and it is dangerous to neglect that truth. But it is desirable that differences in foreign affairs should be reduced to the absolute minimum and that there should be the maximum opportunity of such differences being discussed by people who are informed and have a sense of responsibility, because they have shared the common experience of taking part in the hammering out of these issues in an-inter-Parliamentary assembly in which all Members of Parliament would be on an equal footing.
It would also mean that we should give an effective lead towards world government the goal envisaged by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden). At the present moment there seems to be some danger in the United Nations Assembly of confusing leadership with the backing of small State nationalism, against Great Power realism. Small State nationalism, insistence on the equal rights of sovereign States great or small, is not an advance toward a higher form of international organisation, but a step backward. The Charter in that respect is an improvement on the Covenant, and the perennial wrangle between small States and Great Powers in the Assembly throughout the history of the League is not really the kind of contest out of which can arise any fruitful ideas making for better international organisation.
I believe that this idea of setting up an inter-Parliamentary assembly would be a practical step towards realising the Foreign Secretary's noble ideal. It would make the Assembly more efficient as a body for planning the social and economic activities of the League because I believe that the international parties that would arise within such an assembly are the only bodies wide enough to take a world view of world issues instead of taking a sectional view, which Governments are bound to take, because they must always sacrifice international interests to their view of their national interests. I believe also that an inter-Parliamentary assembly would be infinitely superior as a forum, as a clearing house, as a rallying point and sounding board for world public opinion, than an inter-governmental body. The Geneva Assembly was a very faint and feeble echo of the great currents of world opinion and conviction. An international assembly could give vigorous, colourful, expression to world opinions. It could educate public opinion in all countries. Not least could it help to educate those of us in this House, and I think perhaps Members of Parliament of other Houses too. It would bring home to the peoples of the world the connection between world affairs and their own bread and butter politics. It would help to make this new Assembly, a body approximating to what General Smuts dreamed the League of Nations Assembly might become but which it was constitutionally debarred from becoming. General Smuts said:
7.20 p.m.
We should congratulate the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) upon bringing to the notice of the House this important matter and providing us with an opportunity of discussing it, because it is of tremendous importance at the present time. Unfortunately, we have too little time at our disposal to discuss these matters, because of the many urgent and pressing domestic matters which naturally concern us. Like the hon. Member, I feel that the statement made by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in the Debate shortly before the Recess, was one of the most important statements of policy made by a Government of this country. It was that we should aim at the establishment of a system of world government, with a world police force, and a world code of law. That was not merely a revolutionary declaration; it marked a historical step forward in the aims officially stated by Governments of this country. Nevertheless, I feel that the statement needs clarification, and I hope that the Minister of State will be able to explain a little more clearly, when he replies to this Debate, what is in the mind of the Government on this matter.
The Foreign Secretary seemed to suggest on that occasion, that there ought to be set up some new organisation alongside the one which had only just been born, the United, Nations Organisation. He seemed to be of opinion, though perhaps he did not express it very precisely, that the world Parliament of which he was thinking, might grow up in time, apart from and alongside U.N.O., and that it should be restricted to a very specific function, that of maintaining international security; in other words, of preventing war. I would like some clarification on those two points. It appears to me that when we are putting all our efforts into building up a tremendous new international organisation covering, as it is intended to do at the moment, according to its plan, principle and Charter, the whole field of political and economic security and of human and social rights, if we are to aim at establishing some other new organisation on a different basis to take over one specific field covered by U.N.O., political and military security, we shall be adding only confusion to the present rather complex field of international problems. From the point of view already put forward by the Foreign Secretary and by other Members of the Government, I should have thought that the view taken by the Government was that economic security and social and human rights were very closely linked with political and military security and that it was impossible to separate them. If that be the view of the Government, what we come down to is that the aims set forward by the Foreign Secretary should be realised in the course of time through the existing organisation of U.N.O. Therefore, the task of the Government in this field, if we take the declaration of the Foreign Secretary as indicating the goal to which we are moving, is to work out plans and policies by which the present structure of U.N.O. can be progressively adapted until it corresponds to the world government spoken of by the Foreign Secretary.
That means that U.N.O. has to be fundamentally changed, and that we have to work towards the establishment of a higher level of sovereignty than that of the nation-State. To that extent, we have to reduce the status of national sovereignty from its present absolute quality to a relative quality. The problem of achieving that is probably the central problem before the world today. U.N.O. does it, to a limited extent and for a considerable number of nations, but it divides the nations of the world into two classes. There is the class of small and middle Powers, which, under the Charter, agree to accept the decisions of the Security Council. I believe that the precise undertaking is contained in Article 24, but as I have not the Charter with me I speak from memory. Under the Article, the Member States accept the obligation to carry out the decisions of the Security Council, which decisions may, in certain conditions, compel those nations to put certain portions of their Armed Forces at the disposal of the Security Council and to engage in warlike actions.
That obligation is accepted by all Member States, but on the Security Council itself there are, as is well known, five nations who are in a special and privileged position. By their right of veto the "Big Five" have set themselves apart from all the other Member Nations. Those five big Powers have, in fact, refused to accept the obligations which they have imposed upon the others. They have refused to be bound by any higher authority than themselves. The other 46 nations in U.N.O. accept the obligation to be bound by higher authority, namely, the Security Council. The "Big Five" accept no higher authority, as far as decisive actions are concerned, than themselves. So we have the position that U.N.O. divides the nations into two classes: the "Big Five," which retain their absolute national sovereignty; and all the rest, who have to accept a limitation of their national sovereignty in favour of a higher authority.
That is a political fact which corresponds to the political facts of the present world situation. Political facts can be changed. I am not suggesting, and am far from suggesting, that we should base our policy on the assumption that we have to accept for the future the political facts as they exist at the present moment. On the contrary, I believe that we should base our aims for the future upon an intelligent anticipation of possible changes in the political facts. That is true realism. Political facts cannot be changed by attempting to by-pass them, short-circuit them or, to use a familiar term, by "wangling" round them. Much as I agree with the principles enunciated by the hon. Member for Gateshead, I feel that the precise scheme advocated at this moment by him is an attempt to "wangle" round, as it were, the present political facts, as embodied in the Charter of U.N.O. I am in full agreement with the general objectives which he has set out as being ultimately those at which we must aim to achieve a world Assembly, in which the representatives, although elected by or through national constituencies, are there as representatives not simply of their own nations but of the people of the world as a whole. I think our political representatives should be qualified to speak for the masses of the people, and should not be solely diplomats or Ministers, who must necessarily defend the interests of their particular States.
Whether or not the precise scheme which the hon. Member for Gateshead has advocated is the best way of achieving these aims I do not know, but of this I am quite sure, that it would not be accepted under present political realities; that, in fact, the Great Powers—the "Big Five," who have set themselves in a class apart from the others—will not be disposed to giving greater power to the General Assembly. On the other hand, the smaller nations would certainly resent the idea that their voting power in the General Assembly should be reduced by comparison with the Great Powers. The small nations and the middle Powers are quite entitled to ask in return for a weighted reduction in the General Assembly that the "Big Five" should agree to come down to the general level of the other nations and accept some diminution of national sovereignty. Until they are prepared to do that, the small nations certainly would not agree to a scheme of this kind.
Therefore it appears to me—and this is what I would ask the Government to consider—that the whole matter has to be approached quite openly and publicly, and that the Government should work for the ultimate transformation of U.N.O. into a form of world government, to which all nations, including the "Big Five" and including ourselves, are willing to surrender the appropriate portion of sovereignty. Therefore, we should begin to think about the revision of the Charter along those lines—the revision of the Charter as a whole and not merely in selected parts. In addition, because the revision of the Charter does involve the support of the "Big Five" nations, we should begin now to tackle the political problem, and persuade the "Big Five" to accept the principle of the establishment of a higher level of sovereignty. That political problem is the basic one we have to tackle and the Government should begin to do it—the Minister of State will I hope take this into account in his reply—by giving a lead from this country, making it clear that we are prepared to see the speedy establishment of a higher level of sovereignty than that of any nation State in the world, including our own and including the other members of the "Big Five." Such a lead by the Government of this country would begin to influence public opinion, not only here, but in other countries of the world. It would begin to influence public opinion in the United States, in France, in China and in the Soviet Union.
We have, unfortunately, seen that the Soviet Union itself has reacted unfavour- ably to this idea. But I think there is a clear reason behind it. The Soviet Union fears that any form of world government or any limitation of the national sovereignty of the "Big Five" might lead to the creation of something resembling the old capitalist combination against the Soviet Union. That is an old suspicion for which there might not be much foundation today, but we have to recognise it does exist and we have to go out of our way to break it down. One of the greatest contributions that we can make to the solution of this problem is by making a deliberate effort to win the confidence of the Soviet Union, and to make it clear in our relations with that State that there is no possibility under world government of any international instrument being dominated by Powers which are hostile to the Soviet Union. If we can, by developing the confidence of the Soviet Union, win their support for the abandonment of such portion of national sovereignty as is required to establish an effective instrument of political and economic security, then I believe we can win the public opinion of the other nations, too, and set all the peoples of the "Big Five" on the road towards the establishment of a genuine international authority.
7.37 p.m.
I do not propose to make a very long speech. It would be easier for me to deal as adequately with these matters as I should like if the Assembly of the United Nations were over, and I know my hon. Friends will not think I am being facetious when I say that I regard the purpose of this Debate rather that I should listen to their speeches than that they should listen to mine. I know also that other hon. Members hope to discuss other matters on the Adjournment before the House rises. I should like at once to congratulate the two hon. Members who have just spoken on their speeches, and particularly the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) for his knowledge of the Charter, which for my part, after prolonged study, I find a difficult document to remember.
The hon. Member for Luton asked whether His Majesty's Government did mean to work the institutions of the United Nations in such a way that in due course we shall see produced the equivalent of world government. My answer is "Yes." I agree with him that that is the object we must have in view and I tell him it is, in fact, what the Government conscientiously and deliberately have in view in what they are trying now to do in these new institutions. He said that he hoped the delegates there might come to regard themselves, and be regarded by other people, as not only national spokesmen of their own individual States, but spokesmen of the peoples of the world. I remember very well the late Lord Balfour, when he was our representative at Geneva, once saying that he considered that on many matters he should regard himself not only as a British spokesman but as the spokesman of the peoples, responsible to them for the development, and the application, of the Covenant of the League. I believe it is true to say that in the period between the wars, with all its early progress and its later tragedy, men like Lord Cecil, Doctor Nansen, Aristide Briand, and Arthur Henderson did think of themselves consciously as responsible to the peoples of the world, and were accepted by the peoples as their spokesmen.
When my hon. Friend the Member for Luton came to talk about the revision of the Charter he made—if he will not think it patronising of me to say so—what I thought to be some very wise and judicious remarks. It is quite true, as he said, that some other governments take a very serious view of any early revision of the Charter, that they would oppose it at the present time. It is true, as he said, that, by example, by precept, by persuasion, we may be able to create the confidence from which amendment and progress will come. He spoke of what His Majesty's Government might do. I will not pursue further the particular point he raised; I will only say this, that I hope the answer I gave to a Question this afternoon, may be taken as an indication of the attitude which the present Government adopt. I said that His Majesty's Government were most anxious to answer in the Security Council any charges that might be brought against them, in order that our good name might be cleared; that we regard it as the purpose of these institutions to deal with matters of international dispute and misunderstanding; and that, for our part, we shall seek to use the Council for that end. I would only add about the revi- sion of the Charter—and my hon. Friend will, I know, forgive me if I do not go further—that I think we must all rely not only on formal amendment to change the Charter as it stands today, but that we must rely on that process which, after all, in our own constitutional history has meant so much to us, namely, custom, the growth of confidence, and the acceptance of common sense. I believe that just as British Parliamentary procedure has come out of history, and much of it cannot even be traced to its original source, so, in the development of these international institutions, if we use them aright, we shall find that custom, confidence and common sense may lead us well on our way.
I pass to the documented and admirably argued speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus). He will know, without my saying so here, that I am in agreement with a great many things which he said. If I do not always express that agreement now, he will know that it is because I am trying to save time, and I know he will understand that we do think that, in the atomic age, imaginative and bold solutions for many problems will be required; that we cannot stand still in Government while science is moving so fast; and that in international government, as in national government, we must adopt many new solutions which only a short time ago might have seemed to be Utopian.
I want now, if I may, to deal with something of what he said about the institutions which will be, and have been, and are being, created for promoting the social and economic welfare of the nations of mankind. Someone said in the Assembly Debate that if the Economic and Social Council functioned as they hoped it would the Security Council might find very little to do. Certain it is that if we can secure the advance in the general economic, material and spiritual well-being of mankind which ought to be open to us in this generation, then the causes of war will gradually, perhaps rapidly, disappear, and we shall put all the business of disputes and armaments and war into the same position which the differences between individual citizens have within the national state. I think that in these institutions which we are setting up we shall not have, as my hon. Friend feared we might have, a lot of talk and no results. I agree with him that we must have a co-ordinating body to put order into the machinery and to put drive behind it. I believe that the Economic and Social Council may perform that function in considerable measure. I would call to his attention the fact—I am sure he has not forgotten it—that the Economic and Social Council can decide matters by a simple majority vote.
On the policy which it ought to pursue, I found myself in very large agreement with what my hon. Friend said. I agree with him that there is a lot of international debris, prewar and 19th century international unions, which are really out of date, which ought to be swept up now, and either abolished or absorbed into the new, wider and more comprehensive organisations which will be set up. He mentioned the International Institute of Agriculture at Rome. I had a hand at the Food and Agriculture Conference at Quebec in securing a decision that the International Institute of Agriculture at Rome shall be absorbed into the F.A.O., and I hope that all other similar bodies which deal with agriculture, with nutrition, with fisheries, with forests will likewise be taken over by the F.A.O. He spoke of health and the old Paris office, the Office Internationale d'Hygiène Publique. Let us recognise that that office performed one function that was useful—it dealt with the prevention of epidemic disease which might result from the annual pilgrimages to the Hedjaz, and I think it did that job extremely well. I am quite clear in my mind, however, as is my hon. Friend, that it ought now to be absorbed into the new United Nations Health Organisation, and I trust that in a matter of days he will see in the Press, or in the Journal of the Assembly, a resolution which will speak of the creation of "a single United Nations health organisation," and the word "single" will mean that the Paris Office should disappear. I agree with him that such old international organisations are obsolete.
I agree also with him when he says that we ought to try to use the Assembly to ensure that whatever agency may be set up to deal with any particular matter, whether it be Food and Agriculture, or Health, or any of the other multifarious activities which will come within the range of the United Nations, we should seek, by persuasion in the Assembly, by new agreements, or by resolutions taken there, to ensure that these new agencies shall have the same membership as the United Nations itself; that, as in the case of the I.L.O. in the old days, membership of the United Nations shall mean that member states are equally members of all the agencies which exist under the United Nations. I think myself that by far the best way of ensuring that object is to set up the new organisations by Assembly resolution, as was done the other day in the creation of the Atomic Commission. I hope that that method may be widely adopted. In certain cases there are real difficulties, and some other method is required, or maybe thought to be required, by so many nations that an Assembly resolution in fact is ruled out; but I hope that this method of Assembly resolution may become part of our regular practice, and that in that way my hon. Friend's objective will be fully ensured. I agree with him about the budget of these organisations. Of course it is enormously better for all concerned if the budget of these special agencies can be carried in one single document, carried by a single vote in the United Nations Assembly, and brought to each national parliament as a single vote for appropriation.
I agree with my hon. Friend in a considerable measure about functional representation. He said that the constitution of the Food and Agriculture Organisation might usefully be amended to include representatives in the Conference and in the Executive Board of the National Farmers Union and of the agricultural workers. Our Government tried to ensure that some, at least, of my hon. Friend's purpose should be carried out at Quebec, by including representatives of the National Union of Agricultural Workers and of the National Farmers Union in our delegation; and extremely useful work they did. One of my hon. Friends in the House went there for the agricultural workers of this country. I do not think we can immediately tinker with the constitution of the Food and Agriculture Organisation; but in many of the institutions in which I hope the Economic and Social Council will take the initiative, I agree that the principle of functional representation could be adopted, and I believe that, if it is adopted, it will carry us a long way towards the objective which my hon. Friend and I equally hope to see achieved.
My hon. Friend spoke of the representation of the World Federation of Trade Unions in the Assembly and in the Economic and Social Council. I should have been discussing that very matter for the last hour and 50 minutes, had the hon. Member not kept me away from the meeting where that debate is going on. I am bound to say that, while I agree that the purpose of Article 71 of the Charter must be fully carried out, by the creation of suitable arrangements for regular consultation with international non-governmental organisations like the World Federation of Trade Unions, and others, I am afraid that, as at present advised, I see some difficulties in the representatives of the World Federation of Trade Unions sitting either in the Assembly or in the Economic and Social Council, whether with or without a vote.
Let us take the Economic and Social Council. It is the easiest example and it proves more conclusively the argument I want to put. I put it simply as an illustration, and without in any way seeking to prejudice any decision which the Assembly may come to. The Council already has 18 members. Supposing you allow a permanent delegate of the World Federation of Trade Unions to sit there as a 19th member. Could you then possibly refuse an application for a delegate of the International Co-operative Alliance, which claimed not long ago to represent 85,000,000 families, and which is a great force in the economic life of many nations? I do not know how you could refuse it. If some Governments wanted to demand that then one may be perfectly certain that other Governments will think it necessary to submit demands for representation of the International Chamber of Commerce or the International Employers' Federation, and on particular technical matters many other bodies as well. In the end, I think you would have the Economic and Social Council becoming a much larger body than was intended, or than it is useful that it should be. Its character would be changed, and, therefore, I think, so far as the Council itself is concerned—and in my view the same argument applies to the Assembly—it would be wrong to give that permanent participation to the W.F.T.U., whether with or without a vote. Let me repeat in the functional institutions I think the principle of functional representation can be carried further; and I cannot help saying that whether it was the selection of individuals, as in the Health Committee of the League, or whether it was the selection of representatives of organisations like the International Federation of Trade Unions, as in the Temporary Mixed Commission on Disarmament, the results in the old days of functional representation were always good and always worth while.
I now come to what the hon. Member said about the Assembly itself. In my view, however much we may hope and expect from the working of the Economic and Social Council, the Assembly nevertheless remains the great co-ordinating body of the United Nations. It will remain the institution from which the real drive for progress will come. I am convinced that the Assembly will prove, in due course, to be the supreme organ of the United Nations. I do not know whether the hon. Member expects us to put forward, or if he thinks that if we do put forward, we shall gain acceptance for, an immediate Amendment to the Charter, on the lines he has suggested. As he knows, there are certain delegations, some of them very important, who object strongly to any attempt to amend the Charter today.
I was not proposing an Amendment. I was suggesting study and report by the Assembly, with the idea that, if it was justified, there would be an ultimate recommendation for an Amendment.
I am not at all sure that that will not ultimately happen, but I am also sure that it would be wrong for us to do it at the present Session, or perhaps even for a few sessions to come. I must say, as indeed I have already said, that formal Amendments are not always the best way of improving a constitutional document. I can speak with experience, as my hon. Friend did, of the budget of the League of Nations in the old Assembly. It was my experience, particularly for the first ten years while the League was really working, while people believed that the Covenant would be carried out, that there was practically never a case in which the Plenary Assembly rejected a recommendation made by a majority of one of its committees. It became very difficult at the end of those ten years for any delegation to oppose something in the full Assembly which had been carried in Committee. I do not remember any case in which in fact it was successful, though I cannot speak for the later years when I was not so closely concerned in the work. I believe if we had avoided the Manchurian disaster, if we had had another 20 years of peaceful progress in the institutions of the League of Nations, we should have had a growth of customary law by which, in fact, that Budget would have been accepted by majority vote every year. It is by reason of that experience that I am not convinced that a formal Amendment is always the best way of making progress.
But in any case I am quite certain that we do not need to wait for the time when we can put forward a formal Amendment in order to develop the Assembly along the lines hoped for by the hon. Member. I believe we can make a start at once in working towards a world Parliament, and in merging national sovereignty in a higher, over-riding international sovereignty. Take the Assembly first. In its best years, the old League Assembly was a great affair. I think it did form public opinion. I always think that the real success of the League of Nations came in 1935. Law is the foundation of society. In 1935, world opinion was roused unanimously against the aggression of Mussolini. Why? Twenty years before that aggression it would have been treated as a small colonial war and would hardly have made a ripple on the surface of world opinion. World opinion was roused against Mussolini because the Covenant and the Kellogg Pact had been accepted by the peoples as binding law. That was the real success of the old Assembly. It did form public opinion. And I believe this new Assembly is going to form it far more powerfully than the old Assembly ever could. It is only three weeks old, but I have been there every day, and I can tell hon. Members that this new Assembly is far more parliamentary, far less diplomatic, a far better machine, there are far more parliamentarians, than we had in the old Assembly at its best.
There has been talk today of the "cut and thrust of debate." On Saturday morning in the Plenary Assembly we had a cut and thrust Debate which lasted three and a half hours, in which I had the great satisfaction of helping the United Kingdom to defeat the United States and the Soviet Union combined, and of splitting their "satellites" into different groups. We can do much now to make the new Assembly into the international Parliament for which the hon. Member hopes. The way to do it is to treat it as a Parliament; to make it plain that you mean to take difficult and important subjects there, and to settle them by the method of Parliamentary Debate. The way to do it is to show that you mean to have the members of the Press always present whenever there is a debate going on, in order that they can hold the spokesmen of the nations responsible to their peoples for what they have said and done. The way to do it is to build up rules of procedure as strong and comprehensive as the Rules of Procedure in this House. The way to do it is to ensure mutual tolerance for opposing views, and to ensure that minorities will accept majority decisions. Above all, the way to do it is by something which was once expressed by the late Lord Balfour. A friend of his asked him, in my hearing, why the British Parliamentary system worked better than any other, and after reflection he said, "Because all the parties want it to work." We have to get to that position in our international Assembly; we have to make the Assembly an international Parliament, where every nation recognises that it is to its over-riding interest that the thing should work. Compared with these things, I venture to think that weighted voting is a small matter. In reality, voting is weighted anyway by moral influence.
I am not arguing against what my hon. Friend has described as a possible ultimate objective. I am only saying that we can get much by the methods I have described. And if we have 10 years of peace and progress now, I believe we shall by that time have made great advances towards what he and I both want. I add this; I am quite sure that we could not have both an Assembly, and the International Parliamentary body which he described. It is one or the other.
As to the ways in which we may merge sovereignty, on the initiative of the Assembly, we shall have to deal with many matters in which common international interests are involved. I mention aviation; health—the incidence of malaria which, in the Balkans, the Middle East, Africa and South America does more, perhaps, than any other single factor to lower the productivity of the world and the standards of the nations there and elsewhere; narcotic drugs; pests—rodents and insects which cause immense destruction of mankind's wealth; transport in a Continent like Europe; broadcasting; the Rights of Man—everything from military weapons of mass destruction to town and country planning. In a vast variety of subjects, we are going to have highly developed international co-operation, or we are going to perish. I said, in the Economic and Social Council on Thursday last, that I believe that in our work on that Council, and in the setting up of the institutions which we have to create, we shall be led in many ways to abandon the ideas and practices of national sovereignty which hitherto governments and nations have accepted. In the atomic age we must go forward, or we shall destroy the civilisation in which we live.
I end by assuring both my hon. Friends that it is the intention of the Government to strive with all our power, through the institutions we now have, and in spite of all the defects of the Charter, which we should like to remove, to create for the nations of the world the kind of instrument of international government which they require.
R.A.F. Transport Command (Accidents)
8.5 p.m.
It is with reluctance I have to speak on the subject of air accidents, and particularly in the Royal Air Force. Two statements have been made by the Air Ministry, the first a very poor one, and the second, the statement by the Under-Secretary for Air last Thursday, which was an improvement. I do not believe that the matter has gone quite far enough. It is with regret that I see the Royal Air Force is having other troubles, and I am sorry to have to bring the Under-Secretary here on this occasion—not that I condone the other difficulties at all, but I believe that by discussing this matter this evening the situation might be helped. I would like to quote a few figures published in "The Times," on 17th January, giving particulars of accidents in Transport Com- mand. There were 55 accidents between February and October, 1945, resulting in 334 deaths of passengers and 193 of members of crews, three passengers missing, four members of crews missing, 38 passengers injured and 43 members of crews injured. This is a very formidable total. I appreciate that the Command flew a tremendous amount of mileage and it is very imposing when you read of the number of miles flown, but if the railways calculated their accidents on the same basis I should not feel very impressed. The fact that 22 ex-prisoners of war were killed when flying across Europe is most disturbing, because I do not believe that ex-prisoners of war being brought back to this country should fly across Europe in the winter months. There are the hazards of icing, particularly at night, when, as I believe, that incident took place. I do not believe they should be flown across Europe if they are brought from the Far East, but they should be brought by air and then by sea route from, Egypt.
The Royal Air Force had many difficulties between the two wars—indeed, they had to fight for their very existence, often with shortages of finance and personnel—but during the war the Service has come out completely on top. It has a record second to none. The crews took on any job that was given them, and never complained. Frequently they took on impossible tasks. But times have changed, the war is over, and I do not believe the Service is justified in accepting the commitments and risks they have to accept in war. My complaint is that Transport Command has taken on the commitment to transport 5,000 troops in both directions—that is the new figure—from the Far East at a time when the Service should be adjusting itself to the times of peace. Transport Command is straining every nerve to meet this commitment, staging posts over a route of 6,000 or 7,000 miles consisting of Radar stations and meteorological reports and all the ramifications that are needed to keep air liners in the air. This commitment was given to Transport Command when demobilisation was getting into full swing, and I think the Command would be much better without it in order to adjust itself to the conditions of peace.
We all know that demobilisation is going on at a fairly rapid rate. A member of a crew goes and is replaced by a man who may leave in a month hence or in a shorter period. That man, naturally, after five or six years of war is not very interested in his job other than to make the aircraft what he would consider reasonably serviceable and I do not believe it is fair on the men or the pilots that they should have to take the job on. Many of the air crews have been posted to Transport Command from other commands. They were not interested in transportation work, and if a man is not interested in his job one cannot get the best out of him. Likewise the aircraft are getting older and will need more servicing as time goes on. I would like the Under-Secretary for Air to assure us that there are sufficient spares for airframes and engines for different types of aircraft, particularly those of American manufacture.
Then we come to the question of engine failures I am told one aircraft developed four engine failures during five flights. This was information from a member of the aircrew himself. On another occasion an aircraft was diverted to the West of England because of bad weather. There it landed and the Glycol tank of the radiator was filled up with undercarriage oil. There are all these small technical problems which make it difficult for the pilot who, after all, should not be expected to hang around his aircraft watching maintenance after he has carried out a long, and probably difficult, flight. Early in December, I asked the Under-Secretary the number of engine failures on four-engined aircraft for the three months from 1st September. I was given the figure of 235, which did not include all the Commands overseas. Frankly, I was staggered by those figures because there must have been many other small failures to engines, perhaps, which were not put on the daily records. There were 235 engine failures on four-engined aircraft. That in itself, I believe, creates alarm. Perhaps the Under-Secretary for Air will give his views on the maintenance of aircraft in the Service as a whole.
Now, I come to the meteorological service. This was discussed last week at Question Time and, as was said then, the crews have done a magnificent job. I do not believe they have been given the full credit for the job they did in the war when they were frequently flying out over enemy territory, or a thousand miles out into the Atlantic, in appalling weather, to get readings. It goes further than that. I believe the meteorological service was started off on the wrong foot before the war. The personnel were never given the status which was due to them. They were under-paid civil servants. I would like to see the members of the meteorological service as a whole commissioned and given their proper place in the service. In the same way I think the heads of the meteorological service should be practical men and not scientists alone. We want men who actually fly in aircraft occasionally and know the practical difficulties, so that they can organise their service to give the best results. I heard of a case quite recently of a pilot being briefed in North Africa to fly the Mediterranean at night and the met. officer said, "Look out for cumulo nimbus clouds," but there was no moon, so I do not know how it was thought the pilot was going to see the clouds at night. That is the sort of thing to be contended with at the present time.
Will the Under-Secretary assure the House that all these transport aircraft are fitted with up-to-date Radar and that the aircraft are not sacrificing safety equipment for pay load? I believe it is a great mistake for the aircraft to carry on with this enormous commitment at the present time. The public is being given a wrong impression of transport flying and a great deal of good work is being undone. The ideal thing, of course, would be for B.O.A.C. to take on as much of this commitment as possible, but I fully appreciate my hon. Friend's difficulties in transferring that work. Merely to take a man out of uniform and telling him he now belongs to B.O.A.C. will not help. Steps should be taken to see, as far as possible, that the commitment is handed over to B.O.A.C., because we do not want Transport Command kept up on a large scale just for the sake of having a large Command.
I do not know the strength of Transport Command but I imagine it is probably within the region of 100,000 and it is an enormous task in these days to transport 5,000 men each month from the Far East in addition to carrying out the European commitments. Perhaps the Under-Secretary will give us a little more information on the strength of the Command and details of how the men are distributed throughout the world as a whole. These 5,000 men could be brought home by ship. Probably it would mean a delay of from two to three weeks in their demobilisation, and we know there is trouble enough about demobilisation, but I believe, if it was organised in the right way, it could be done. In any case, they could be flown only as far as Egypt and then brought home by ship during the winter months. Certainly, the wives and mothers would be relieved if they knew that was going to happen. I consider that when the Air Force took on this enormous commitment they were under pressure from the Government to do so. It would have been far better to have faced up to the difficulties and have said: "No, it could not be done during the heavy demobilisation."
Finally, I would ask the Under-Secretary to be quite frank with this House and the public about air accidents as a whole. He was asked a few moments ago, as a compromise, if he would make a quarterly statement on air accidents. Well, if he agrees to do that it is going to be a staggering figure to give every quarter, a figure which will unsettle people who have sons serving in the Royal Air Force. I ask him to be frank with the people, and publish accidents as and when they take place. We are bound to have a certain number of air accidents in a Service like the Royal Air Force, but it will be in the interests of the Service, I believe, to give the information as and when the accidents occur. I ask the Under-Secretary to consider whether bringing these 5,000 men home each month is worth while. I certainly believe it is not worth while.
8.16 p.m.
I feel my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey) is to be congratulated on the very reasonable and fair way in which he has brought before the House this very difficult subject. I say it is a difficult subject because we are faced with one difficulty, and that is, that in this country, as indeed throughout the world, air accidents are news, and if there is an air crash news of it inevitably finds its way on to page one of the newspapers and becomes the subject of considerable discussion. On the other hand, an accident on the road is but rarely reported. Only this afternoon we heard the Minister of War Transport say how many thousands of casualties there had been on the roads in this country during the past year, and yet as far as road accidents are concerned there is a very large section of the public which treats the whole matter with quite an easy complacency. On the other hand, because of the news value of air accidents, one finds a very much greater volume of criticism, and, in my opinion, some of it is bad for the morale of the Service generally and the morale of Transport Command in particular. I think if we do not express ourselves properly, we can only do harm to the prestige of the Royal Air Force and, indeed, flying generally.
I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Macclesfield when he says that the Government gave to Transport Command far too heavy a task, and I feel it is the duty of the Under-Secretary in cases like this to say, if necessary, to the Cabinet, "We are equipped to do a certain amount of work. If you ask us to do more than that then, though we try, it must inevitably involve a certain amount of danger to the people who will be travelling by air." I think Transport Command took on too great a task, but, at the same time, I feel that the people concerned in that Command did an absolutely first rate job, especially when one considers all the facilities that they have at their disposal. It is fortunate, from the point of view of development in the air, that the public and the House will not tolerate any easy complacency about this question of air accidents. I feel certain the House will always welcome discussion which can do anything to improve the standard of safety in the air. In the same way, we welcome the recent inquiry which was made by the Air Staff into the accidents arising out of the trooping programme. One thing that struck me forcibly was the first recommendation which was made, the one pointing out how it was proposed to try and overcome the effects of demobilisation. What a striking paragraph it was: safe air service when it was faced with the fact that it could not maintain any air crew teams together for a space of more than a week? To my mind, good team work in the air is absolutely of the essence of safety in air transport. I have seen it many times, and we are all agreed and understand the need for it, but I thought of it very forcibly indeed one time when flying over to the other side of the Atlantic and we had to come down in Newfoundland through thick fog and low cloud. I was asked to go forward, on account of a matter of weight, and there I saw the air crew working as a team bringing the great C.54 down through the clouds and it was a wonderful example of co-operation. I thought at once—could these men have done that job with that easy cohesion if they had not been together on the job for a long time, and every man knew his part in the task and knew exactly what his neighbour was going to do?
In my opinion, the Government ought to take immediate steps to ensure the continuity of air crews, and I feel that the Government have been at fault in that that they will not make up their minds about the future terms of service in the Royal Air Service and in the other Services. We want to keep these teams together. The Royal Air Force, in common with the other Services, is losing good men day after day through demobilisation, and I know from my personal experience that many of these people would naturally wish to stay in the Service; they like it and would like to make it their career, and yet they cannot get from the Government any information about their future. True, indeed, it is, as the Under-Secretary said the other day, some few, probably a mere handful, have been offered commissions and a few other ranks some permanent employment, but I feel that the time has come when we should have some statement on the subject with regard to the size of the Royal Air Force in the future.
It may well be that authorities much higher than the Under-Secretary might say, "We do not know how big it will be, or what our commitments will be under the United Nations Organisation." There must be, however, somewhere, an absolutely irreducible minimum at which we have got to maintain the Royal Air Force for the defence of our own country, and we should have some statement so that the men may be encouraged to remain in the Service for their careers. It is no good saying, "We will take you on for another year or three years." During that time, the men are getting older, and they know that, if they are thrown out after three years, the chances of getting employment will not be as good as they are now. I feel that the Air Ministry could ease the position with regard to this matter if they would definitely give some idea of the strength of the Royal Air Force of the future and offer careers to those air crews, and, indeed, ground crews so that they may stay in the Royal Air Force. It affects the crews in the air, but it also affects those people mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Macclesfield who are concerned in maintenance. I believe it is important that we should also have some continuity among the ground crews who are looking after the maintenance of our air transport system. I ask the Under-Secretary, in the interests of the Service and of the nation generally, to impress upon the Cabinet and the Defence Ministers the necessity of giving some statement to the men in the Services so that they might stay and perform these important jobs.
I would like to ask the Under-Secretary a question with regard to the standard of training. I asked him the other day what was the difference between the training of air crews in Transport Command and in B.O.A.C. He told me: peace time standards of safety." Does that mean that, since V.E. and V.J. Days and we have had this important trooping programme started, the men have been deliberately brought back through the air on a lower standard of safety than that which is required for ordinary civilian air transport? If so, may we be assured that the matter will be rectified at once, and that from now on standards of safety in the air will be common to all transport aircraft, whether operated by the Royal Air Force or by the civilian air lines.
I want to say, in conclusion, that the Under-Secretary can rely on our support on this side of the House in any effort he will make to improve the standard of safety in the air. We admire the men who have done a most difficult job, and we would like them to know that we are 100 per cent. behind them in their efforts to make British air transport pre-eminent throughout the world.
8.27 p.m.
This is, I think, the fourth time this matter has been raised on the Motion for the Adjournment in the last 12 months. On the first occasion, the Debate was answered by Sir Archibald Sinclair, and, on the second occasion, by the late Commander Rupert Brabner, who was himself a victim in one of the next accidents in Transport Command. Then, it was raised on a third occasion. I recognise that, since then, the present Under-Secretary has made a statement on behalf of the Air Ministry which indicates, for the first time, that they are taking seriously the large number of accidents that have occurred and the various measures which are now being taken, which we hope will result in a reduction in the number of these accidents. Indeed, it is quite time. When the matter was raised more than six months ago, it was possible for the Ministers responsible to reply, as they did, that the first priority was the matter of air crews and equipment, which had to be given to those commands of the Royal Air Force which, as they said, made the most direct impact upon the enemy, and, therefore, those who were engaged in transporting even very important personages about the theatres of war had to be content with what was left over after Bomber and Fighter Command had been supplied.
Now, of course, the situation has changed, and the hon. Gentleman who replies will have to say that first priority is now being given to Transport Command, and that if there is, and there should not be, any shortage of equipment at all, it would at the present time be Bomber and Fighter Commanders who would have to wait until the most pressing priorities had been given to Transport Command in the repatriation of troops which must be the first priority, everything being sacrificed in order to ensure that.
I am at a disadvantage tonight because I thought this matter was to be raised the day after tomorrow. I have had a letter from a constituent, recently demobilised, who said he was very much concerned about the general position in Bomber Command, which was being used for the transport of troops, and he was going to give me certain information, contrasting it with the higher degree of efficiency which obtained in Transport Command. I wrote and told him to let me have the information by Wednesday morning, or for ever to hold his peace.
This matter has come on today instead of Wednesday, and I am without that information. Therefore, I have to rely upon my memory and upon the facts as stated to me. It is a number of weeks ago that I received a communication from an officer serving in Italy, telling me how inadequate and dangerous were the aircraft supplied for the transportation of senior officers in that theatre. Ordinarily speaking, they are compelled to use Hudsons. He took the view that Hudsons are no longer to be regarded as really, airworthy. I have taken the trouble to make inquiries from several officers with experience in the Royal Air Force, and they all agree that the Hudson is, at any rate, no longer an up-to-date machine. I believe the Under-Secretary will agree that was the case when I put a Supplementary Question to him on this subject.
When I knew this matter was going to arise, I wrote to the Under-Secretary and drew his attention to the case where certain senior officers were summoned from Italy to Berlin for a conference with Field Marshal Montgomery. In that case one of the engines of the Hudson failed over the Alps and the aircraft limped as far as Munich, when, for some reason not fully understood, the pilot turned, and began to return. Then the second engine froze up and he gave the order to bale out. A major-general, two brigadiers and one or two senior officers all had to bale out. More by good luck than good management there was, I understand, no more serious accident than that one officer broke his leg, and that it was about 36 hours before he was found and removed to hospital.
That was given to me as an example of what is regarded as by no means unlikely to happen when officers are required—as they now are—to travel in winter conditions and over considerable distances in Hudson aircraft. So far as the Allied Forces in Italy are concerned, the only alternative to the use of Hudsons is a single-engined plane, which is obviously even more unsuitable. I ask the Under-Secretary to have an inquiry made into the aircraft provided for the transportation of Army officers in the discharge of their duties. I am sure the hon. Gentleman realises that at the present time, whatever may be the organisation of civil aviation in this country—upon which, naturally opinions differ between hon. Gentlemen opposite and upon these benches—in the long run, the goodwill of the British aircraft industry depends upon it having a reputation for safety. At the present time when the Air Ministry, with great enterprise, are taking certain risks which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey) thinks excessive, and are trying to give facilities for the repatriation of men from overseas at a far greater rate than without the use of aircraft, it is not too much to say that not only the eyes of this country, but of the whole world are watching the way this operation is to be carried out. The effect of a series of accidents, such as have happened recently, cannot only be serious for the immediate future of civil aviation, but may even be fatal to the reputation of British air lines in the development of civil aviation in the future.
8.35 p.m.
I want to say only a few words in continuance of what has just been said. I would ask the Under-Secretary—though my appeal may be unnecessary—to be frank when he gets up to explain the causes—which he knows—of the accidents about which we are all continually reading. I would like him to be particularly frank because, as has been said, this series of accidents is obviously having an unfortunate effect upon the minds of people when thinking of civil aviation. It would, seem that the accidents, in the main, have been with one particular class of air transport. Recently, I had the opportunity of being flown about the Continent by one particular part of the Royal Air Force Transport Command, and my own feeling—having had a little experience of these matters—was that that particular part of Transport Command was extremely efficient, both on the ground and in the air. I asked other people who had to use the service provided by this particular section, and they agreed with me in my view. I think I am right in saying that, in the future, the organisation which has been built up by Transport Command in Europe will play a very important part in our civil aviation system. Therefore, it is essential that people should realise that the services we shall be using are first-rate, both from the point of view of speed and safety. I think they are. But in certain other directions the standard of safety has not been high, and I want the Under-Secretary, if he can, to draw a distinction between regular services on an established route and certain services that have been built up in an emergency.
I very well remember that when the air-trooping programme was announced, the Under-Secretary said there would be accidents. He obviously knew what he was talking about because, in a service of that kind, one must anticipate accidents and, by the very nature of things, those accidents are liable to be fatal. It is essential, in so far as it is possible, to have crews operating over one route. Certain people have said that flying is not like driving a car along the road, that all routes are the same. In point of fact, all routes are not the same. Each route has its own characteristics and its own hazards. A crew which is accustomed to a particular route becomes accustomed to the particular hazards and takes the necessary precautions. Consequently, it is absolutely essential that we should have a crew retained on the one route for as long a period as possible. There, again, we are up against the business of demobilisation, but if demobilisation is preventing us from keeping crews to one route, then the Under-Secretary should state that in this particular field we are up against an obstacle which we cannot remove and which we have to face. If he does take the people into his confidence, and if he says that we had to take on a job which was really too big for us in the first place, he will help the future of civil aviation by showing people that these hazards are not necessarily intrinsic in the business of flying, but were only to be found when an emergency undertaking, such as the air-trooping programme, was put into operation.
8.40 p.m.
Hon. Members have made a good many points, and I do not think I can do better than go through them one by one. The hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey) quoted, first of all, a number of figures which have been published of the number of accidents and the casualties in those accidents. I was somewhat twitted last week on giving a figure in percentage or proportionate form, and was told that percentages mean nothing without the gross figure; but I think it is equally true in this case that the gross figure means very little without percentages. I quite agree it is very difficult to know how one should reckon it—whether on aircraft miles or passenger miles flown—but although, of course, I do not want to minimise the seriousness of the figures he quoted, they must be seen against the background in the vast world-wide activities of Transport Command and the other passenger-carrying work of the Royal Air Force, as I am sure the hon. and gallant Member would agree. Indeed, without that background they mean very little in themselves. We might get an increase which would look most formidable in the number of casualties suffered by passengers flown by the Royal Air Force, while there had actually been a drop in the percentage of accidents because the work of the Command has gone up so enormously.
But taking those figures, I would emphasise the point just made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Flight-Lieutenant Beswick), that the trouble has been exclusively within the recruiting programme and not on the scheduled services of Transport Command. It was, therefore, towards the recruiting programme to which we directed our attention some weeks ago when this problem obviously became of a character which had to be dealt with. As the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield has said, we have taken action in that matter and we have cut down the trooping programme from 10,000 a month each way to 5,000 a month each way. That is a very drastic cut and that has been done entirely by measures intended to increase safety. The effort by the Command has not been reduced, but safety measures which are extremely expensive in lift have been introduced, which means that only half the number of men can be carried. I think that shows that we took the situation very seriously. The hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks that does not go far enough. I am not suggesting that Transport Command will be expected indefinitely to carry 5,000 passengers a month each way between here and India. I quite agree that would be a heavy task indeed, and certainly we look forward to the time when even that reduced figure of 5,000 a month can be tapered off still further. That will happen, but it cannot be done immediately because it is playing a real and vital part in the general process of demobilisation, and the vital aspect of demobilisation of keeping the rate of release of the men overseas level with the rate of release of the men at home. I need not today stress the importance of that aspect. Therefore, we must look at the two sides of the question. I agree with many of the observations made by the hon. and gallant Member as to the heavy burden which is placed on Transport Command and on the Royal Air Force generally by the air trooping programme even at this reduced figure. We look to relief in that field, but we must not get our relief until shipping is available to fill the gap. I think that would be agreed because we must not interfere with the evenness of the process of demobilisation overseas.
The hon. and gallant Member went on to speak of a series of definite and concrete points which I will try to go through seriatim. He spoke of aircraft spares and asked for assurances on the subject of their availability, especially in American types. I do not think the position is bad there. Obviously, it is not completely easy. These spare parts are not made in this country and they cost dollars, but I can certainly assure him without hesitation that we would never run these aircraft when there was a shortage of spares which would make their running dangerous in any way. If spares run short—I do not say they have for a moment—for any particular type or at a particular place, the aircraft will be grounded and it will not be run in a dangerous condition. We shall certainly not do that. Of course, the position will be greatly eased, and is being greatly eased as really suitable aircraft for this job become available, and undoubtedly our own four-engine transport type, the York, is the answer. The York is becoming available, not as quickly as we would wish, but it is becoming available in appreciable numbers. It is an aircraft of our own manufacture for which the question of spares need not arise, and it is a far more suitable aircraft in every way for the job. We should undoubtedly expect relief for Transport Command as and when a growing proportion of its task can be done by Yorks. The hon. and gallant Member spoke of the question of engine failures. As I said in my statement on the reduction in the air trooping programme, it is perfectly true that one particular mark of engine which was being used in aircraft in this connection did give trouble, and had to have a fairly considerable amount of modification. It is perfectly satisfactory when that modification is done. It took some time, even under the heaviest pressure, to get the modification done on all these engines, but that process is now far advanced.
Then the hon. and gallant Gentleman came to the crucial question—and it is a crucial question—of maintenance. The key to that, as he very truly said, is very largely continuity of personnel and the keeping of teams of skilled men together. As I have said, and as I think everyone in the House recognises, that is a very difficult thing to do during the process of demobilisation. Again, as the hon. and gallant Member for South Blackpool (Wing-Commander Robinson) pointed out, the only real solution is not to arrest the process of demobilisation, even if we wished to do so and even if we could do so, but to build up a new regular Air Force to take the place of the old one, as it were. But, if I may say so, the hon. and gallant Member is under a complete misapprehension if thinks that the Government or the Royal Air Force have only offered new terms of regular engagement to a limited number of airmen. On the contrary, since the publication just before Christmas of the new terms and conditions of service, there is a standing offer to all airmen who know exactly what would be their terms and conditions if they were re-engaged on regular engagement. They know their pay and allowances and they know, within limits, the rank which they can expect on regular re-engagement as compared with their present rank. They know the offer is not merely for short-term re-engagement but long-term re-engagement also. These offers are now open. I am alarmed to hear that the hon. and gallant Member had not seen that these terms of re-engagement had been offered.
Could the hon. Gentleman tell us if the new rates of pay for officers have been announced?
I am talking of airmen for the moment. I will come to officers later. For airmen—which is what we are considering here; in terms of maintenance it is the airmen and N.C.O.s who are in question—for the vast mass of the Air Force there is now a full and standing offer of long re-engagement. The hon. and gallant Member for South Blackpool pressed me to make a statement on the subject. I welcome every opportunity to make a statement on the subject at this or any other time, and I enlist his assistance to make the facts known to the Royal Air Force if they are not universally known, because we could not attach more importance than he does to securing that supply of regular airmen on comparatively long term re-engagement who must be the backbone for rebuilding the Force.
I had seen the statement referred to, but I was interested also in officers, because captains of aircraft are almost invariably officers, on big ones anyway. I was anxious to know roughly how many were going to be kept on permanently. Would the Air Ministry say, "We want to re-employ 100,000 men or 200,000 men" so that the men may know the opportunities that await them? I only want an understanding.
I quite see the point of the hon. and gallant Member. As far as airmen are concerned, a figure has not been given, but we have given an assurance as to rank, which means we are, in fact, building up an establishment to fit a certain minimum figure. Therefore, from the airmen's point of view the opportunities of promotion, or, if he is already a senior N.C.O., the opportunities, of retaining that rank, are made clear. I quite agree that is an essential point, otherwise they do not know where they are. It is now clear to all airmen what they may expect. We cannot tell them what promotion each individual will earn, of course, but the establishment—the pyramid, as it were—has been established, as is suggested, on a minimum figure. I do stress that it was in connection with maintenance, and, therefore, above all, with the mass of the Air Force and the airmen, that this subject was raised.
With regard to officers, the offer of permanent commissions has, of course, been open for some time and a very considerable number of permanent commissions have been given. It is true the terms and conditions of service for officers corresponding to the airmen—and this applies to all three Services—have not yet been published, but that we hope to publish within the next few weeks. There again, when that is published there will be a standing offer to officers as well as airmen of re-engagement. I really think beyond what I would call the public relations side—which is very important and which will have to be prosecuted with, I hope, the assistance of the House—the basis for the recruiting side of the work is now laid completely in the case of airmen and will be within the next few weeks in the case of officers. Although the new postwar conditions and rates of pay for officers have not been published we have had more re-engagements in permanent commissions in the commissioned ranks proportionately—I am not using an absolute figure—than amongst the airmen.
The next point dealt with the Met. Service. The hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield raised the very important issue here—perhaps not quite explicitly, but I think he had it in mind—of the future of the Met. Service. I gathered that he would be of that school of thought which would like to see a separate and distinct Met. Service of the Royal Air Force. I am bound to say that, as at present advised, I cannot follow him there, especially when the Royal Air Force will be only one—however important—of the flying services of the country, and when, as I passionately believe, civil aviation will become of immense importance, size and scope. The Fleet Air Arm and other flying Services, private flying and all types of flying are going on, and not only the flying Services use the Met. Service, the Navy use it, and it may have many other users too. That being so, the Met. Service, almost inevitably, must be one centralised national organisation under Government control, giving a first rate service to all its users. I should have thought that the duplication and triplication which would inevitably result if everybody set up their own separate Met. Service could not really be contemplated.
My hon. Friend and I served together a few years ago, and he knows that, when the Met. officers were asked to get into uniform, while many said "Yes" others said "No," and we had endless difficulties in sending them overseas. If we are to maintain an efficient Met. Service, these men should be in the Service just as much as the pilots.
That is a further point. I am not saying that a single, unified national Met. Service would make it impossible for some of its officers at some time to hold commissioned rank, or alternatively to be uniformed, in one or other of the fighting Services. That is a point for very careful consideration, but I cannot see that we can split up the national Met. Service in peacetime into three or four separate parts. I agree with the hon. and gallant Member in his desire to see a Met. Service of absolutely first-rate standard, well remunerated and with good conditions—because I believe that not only for the Royal Air Force but for civil aviation and all its other users the Met. Service will become of critical national importance. Probably none of us yet realise what a tremendous factor in the coming world a really adequate Met. Service will be, or how much it will mean to this country, which is by no means behind, but, I think holds a leading position.
The next point the hon. and gallant Member made was regarding Radar devices. As he knows, there was a time when the aircraft of Transport Command did not have Radar equipment on the same scale, or of the same modernity, as the other Commands. But with the end of hostilities those priorities were reversed, and I assure hon. Members the task of equipping Transport Command aircraft with all the most suitable Radar devices was pushed onwards. The very great majority are now so equipped and the process should be complete at a very early date.
He mentioned the question of B.O.A.C. We are all at one on the desirability of B.O.A.C. taking over, not the trooping service, but the scheduled services of Transport Command at the earliest possible date. That date is now really early. As from next month the process will go forward in a very much accelerated way, so that we can expect, at long last, relief for Transport Command of the R.A.F. in that field. He asked me for the numerical strength of Transport Command; but that does come under the ban which has been decided on anent the giving of the strengths of the Services at particular places and at particular Commands, which is the Government's policy covering all three Services. Finally, he asked that a quarterly statement of air accidents should be produced. There is now a monthly statement of all air accidents involving passengers, which is placed in the Library of the House of Commons and which is also published in the Press. The first monthly statement has been made, and it will be made from now on regularly at monthly intervals.
I now come to the further point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for South Blackpool, the question of the training as between B.O.A.C. and Transport Command. I think the vital thing here is to distinguish between training and experience. Training is almost identical; but, probably quite rightly from the point of view of a civil air line, not before they employ a man but before they give him command of an aircraft, he does, as the hon. and gallant Member quite rightly stated, quite a large number of extra flying hours as second pilot in an aircraft; and it is quite natural, I think, that Transport Command, developed under the stress and strain of war, has a different system from that. One would naturally expect that type of difference between a civil and a military organisation. He asked had we not introduced peace time standards into Transport Command. Well, we must not think that Transport Command, which is and will remain part of a military organisation, will ever be run in exactly the same way as a civil air line is run. I do not think that would be desirable. He would agree. But we have during the last few weeks—I have recounted them in my statement on the programme—introduced into the trooping programme of Transport Command many of those standards, or similar ones, which the Civil air line operates. That has been in terms of load and effort, but it is the only right and proper thing to do.
As to the point raised by the hon. Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson), I have assured him already, though not by name, that first priority is being given to Transport Command. I do assure him that is so. As to his point about the communications aircraft in the Mediterranean theatre, I am afraid that I, like him, have had rather little notice of this coming on, and I have not any information on the particular accident in the area of the Alps that he mentioned. We have attempted to trace it but have not been able to do so. As to the use of Hudsons, the Hudson is a fine old American aircraft; not the most modern, type; but we used to regard Hudsons, when I served for a brief time in the Mediterranean theatre, as one of the safest aircraft. No doubt they are going slowly out of service now. Every good thing has an end, even a Hudson aircraft does. They are being replaced. It is not true to say there is no alternative to them. For instance, 100 new Ansons of the 119 type—small, twin-engined aircraft—have recently gone to the Mediterranean theatre for that very purpose.
When was that?
It was quite recently, but I cannot give a date. We are fully alive to the importance of replacing with modern aircraft, and, wherever possible, with British aircraft, because the spares are simpler and it is in every way preferable to have these aircraft for this type of work in the Command.
Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that ex-British prisoners of war will not be flown over Europe if that can be avoided?
I certainly give the assurance, "if it can be avoided," but I would not like to give an assurance that no British ex-prisoners of war will be flown, because I think some of them are very anxious to be repatriated by air, and not to do so would be a definite hardship on them; but I fully understand and appreciate the motives in the hon. and gallant Gentleman's suggestion. I welcome this subject having been raised, and the opportunity afforded to lay before the House some of the problems, and ways in which we are seeking to overcome them. They are problems essentially of transition in this, in many ways, difficult and awkward period of transition of the R.A.F. from war to peace tasks. I think that most of these problems are now well on the way to solution. That does not mean, alas, that we can begin to say that there will be no more acci dents. I am afraid that it would be most rash of anyone to give such an assurance; but I claim that we have shown, in the drastic steps which we have taken with regard to the air trooping programme and in the very detailed measures which I have mentioned, that we are making efforts to build up a new, regular R.A.F. on long-term engagement to take the place of the glorious wartime R.A.F. which is now melting away, and rightly so. I feel that the House should be assured that all these matters are being dealt with.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Eight Minutes past Nine o'clock.