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Commons Chamber

Volume 418: debated on Thursday 31 January 1946

House of Commons

Thursday, January 31, 1946

The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]

Oral Answers to Questions

National Insurance

Approved Societies (Transitional Period)

asked the Minister of National Insurance if the will give an assurance that it is his intention to seek the assistance of the voluntary friendly societies in the administration of his scheme during the transitional period, even though he does not intend to use them as an integral part of his scheme; and for how long does he anticipate seeking the advice of friendly societies for this purpose.

I contemplate that there shall be a transitional period during which the change to the new system of Health Insurance will take place by stages. This is inevitable owing to the magnitude and complexity of the operation and has the advantage that it will enable any arrangements that may be decided upon for transfer of staffs of approved societies to be made without the risk of a break-down of administration at the date of transfer. During the transitional period some use will have to be made of the machinery of the approved societies generally. The extent and manner in which this can best be done is one of the matters at present being discussed with a committee representative of all classes of approved societies, and until these discussions have made further progress I cannot say what form these arrangements will take or how long they will last.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the answer he has now given proposes temporarily to raise the hopes of some of these societies, he having previously dashed those hopes a week or so ago, and will he give some indication of the length of the transitional period?

The Question and the answer dealt with the transitional period. The form in which this arrangement will work, and the time for which it will work, are, as I said in my answer, being discussed by a committee of the Ministry and the approved societies, and will be a joint arrangement.

Dentists

asked the Minister of National Insurance what recommendations the Dental Benefit Council has now made with regard to an increase in the fees to dentists for dentures; whether he is in touch with representatives of the dentists with a view to securing an early settlement of the present dispute about fees which is causing hardship to insured persons; and if the Dental Benefit Council will now hold regular meetings.

The Dental Benefit Council which is representative of dentists and approved societies will meet on 14th February and will consider an application for a revision of the scale of fees prescribed by the Dental Benefit Regulations. I hope that in the result a basis will be found for a solution of the difficulties arising out of the refusal of certain dentists to undertake work on the basis of the present scale of fees. The question of resuming regular meetings of the council will also be considered.

There is another part to my Question which the right hon. Gentleman has not answered.

As to whether the Minister is in touch with the representatives, of the dentists in this matter, in view of its urgency.

I have taken steps to ensure that the appropriate machinery for settling this matter—the council which is meeting on the 14th—will be called at the earliest possible moment.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the present scale of fees for dental treatment is such that the profession is always raising the matter with the Government because the scale has not been adequately and carefully worked out? The proportions between various types of treatment are entirely inadequate. Will the Minister consider more fully with the profession the question of an equitable scale?

This is not a matter for me to decide. There is the appropriate machinery, that which I mentioned in the answer.

Police

Airborne Branch

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the fact that a flying branch of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is to be formed in the near future for greater speed and efficiency; and if he will carry out investigations with a view to making similar arrangements in this country.

While I am always anxious that our police shall learn from other countries any lessons which are of value here, the information I have as to the purpose for which aeroplanes are used by the police in certain parts of Canada does not indicate that there would be any advantage in copying this arrangement in this country where the conditions, including particularly the distances involved, are entirely different.

Can the Home Secretary state how he proposes to deal with smugglers who use aeroplanes if he has no flying police?

I should be sorry to disclose to the criminal classes the means at our disposal.

Uniform

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has considered the need for an improved and simplified scheme of uniform for the police force and the substitution of a more hygienic and popular type of head-gear in place of the present helmet; and whether he will consider any sug- gestions which may be made by representatives of the police force to enable such reforms to be adopted.

I have already informed the Police Federation that I shall be glad to consider any specific suggestions which they wish to put to me for an improvement of the uniform, but in the present clothing situation I cannot hold out any hope of any radical alteration in the immediate future.

Would the right hon. Gentleman take into account the fact that the Air Force and the Army now have an open neck tunic, which is very acceptable and very popular, and would he consider adopting the same dress for the police in the summer months?

I am quite willing to consider any suggestions I receive from the police themselves, but I would point out that, in the present clothing situation, the immediate adoption of an open neck tunic would involve the provision of additional clothing, and would make the situation even more difficult.

Section Houses (Heating)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will look into the question of the lack of fuel for heating police section houses in the Metropolitan area.

Measures of a general nature have been taken to secure economy of fuel, and it is probable that any complaint of reduced heating of section houses arises from the application of those measures rather than from actual lack of fuel. If the hon. Member has any specific case in mind I shall be glad to look into it.

Questions

Borstal System

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will give an assurance that Borstal boys from Dartmoor will not be brought to Huntercombe Place, in view of the fact that the neighbourhood is residential.

Any place which is taken for use as a Borstal institution will be occupied by those youths judged likely to profit by the training provided there. There is no justification for assuming that youths now in the Dartmoor Borstal institution are more undesirable as neighbours than those sent elsewhere. Their suitability for the courses of training available at Dartmoor is the criterion on which selection is made. I renew the appeal I made last week to hon. Members to help me in the provision of suitable accommodation so that the less suitable institutions now in temporary use may be closed.

The Home Secretary has not given an assurance that Huntercombe Place will not be used. It is most unsuitable and was once used for housing foreign Quislings and is surrounded by woods and residential houses—

The hon. and gallant Gentleman is giving information not asking for it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman seriously consider whether the inhabitants in this select neighbourhood are likely to do the boys any harm?

Will the right hon. Gentleman seriously consider dispersing the boys rather than crowding them together in Dartmoor, and would it not be better from their point of view?

I am now engaged in looking at a number of premises in the hope that I shall be able to find some which are capable of adaptation as Borstal institutions, so that I may be able to evacuate those undesirable temporary premises into which the circumstances of the times have forced me for this purpose.

Vivisection

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether he is aware that simple inoculations on animals may result in great suffering, and at how many of the 1,281,882 simple inoculations and similar proceedings performed in 1944 his inspectors were personally present to report such suffering.

I cannot give my hon. Friend the figure for which he asks, but my inspectors have been present at many inoculations and the well-being of animals which have been inoculated is one of the matters to which they invariably pay attention in the course of their regular inspections of places registered under the Act. Wherever these inoculations are allowed, carefully framed conditions are laid down to prevent such suffering as my hon. Friend has in mind and my inspectors see to it that these conditions are faithfully observed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the grave public apprehension which exists as to these experiments, and does he believe, in view of the enormous number involved, that the inspection is really adequate?

There is some apprehension. I am charged with the duty of seeing that sufficient inspections take place. My own view is that the apprehension at the moment is unfounded and that the inspection system is reasonably efficient.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the scourge of contagious abortion is being tackled in this way?

Is it not the fact that these inoculations have been the means of saving thousands of human lives?

We are now getting into the question of degree which it is very difficult to deal with by question and answer.

Discharged Prisoners Aid Society, South Wales

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has considered the annual report of the South Wales and Monmouthshire Discharged Prisoners' Aid Society for the year 1944; and if he will state the expenditure on discharged prisoners and the expenses of administration.

Yes, Sir. The disbursements in cash or kind amounted to £199 and the costs of, administration to £627, but it would be a mistake to infer from these figures that the Society is not efficient or well-organised. In the year 1944 when employment was easy to secure the financial needs of the prisoners on discharge were not great, but the need for help and guidance from the welfare officer of this society has been undiminished.

In view of the disturbing figures given by the Home Secretary and the fact that one-third of the amount given to the discharged prisoners was spent on travelling expenses for the dispersal of the prisoners, would he have another look at these accounts to see that the money received as the result of appeals for public charity is wisely spent?

I have very carefully examined these accounts. I must point out that this was an exceptional year from the point of view of the needs of the people dealt with. It is necessary to maintain the organisation. In addition, this is a particularly difficult area to deal with because the society deals with two prisons, one at Cardiff and one at Swansea; and that in itself makes administrative expenses heavy in comparison with other societies.

National Fire Service

Gratuities

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is yet in a position to say when he expects to be able to begin payment of gratuities to ex-members of the N.F.S.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the reason for the delay in paying post-war gratuities to N.F.S. personnel; and on what date he anticipates payment will be completed.

Payment of these gratuities has begun, but the work involved in checking particulars of service, which in most cases entails reference to the former fire brigades' records, is considerable, and though there will be no avoidable delay I cannot forecast when all payments will be completed.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what method is being applied by him respecting the order of payment?

In this matter I am very largely at the mercy of the local authorities who were the employers of the men involved prior to the nationalisation of the service. It is not a matter over which I have complete control. I am endeavouring to get all the calculations made and the payments made to the men with the greatest possible speed, but I have to rely upon the co-operation of the local authorities.

Would the right hon. Gentleman have a word with the Minister of Labour and arrange for additional clerical labour to be given to the regional offices, as this would speed up the process which under the present arrangements will take some two or three years to complete?

I do not think it will take anything like that amount of time, and to bring in untrained labour at the present stage and instruct them in the details of the work would hinder rather than expedite the proceedings.

Whole-time Firemen

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many whole-time firemen are still employed in towns where there were none before the war; how many fires have been dealt with by them during the last year; and what has been the cost of employing these firemen.

I regret that this information is not readily available. I may say, however, that though it would be wrong to assume that the pre-war arrangements were in all cases satisfactory, there are a good many cases where whole-time firemen will be unnecessary when part-time retained firemen can be recruited and means provided of calling them to fires.

; Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in one town where there were no full-time firemen before the war, there are now eight, and will he say what justifies this increase?

Unless the town was named I could not possibly deal with the question on that basis. There are undoubtedly several towns—probably that is an understatement—which ought to have had whole-time firemen and which, in fact, did not.

Aliens

Distressed Persons Scheme

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many refugees, former inmates of concentration camps, have now been admitted into this country under the conditions announced on 13th November, 1945.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it has yet been possible to form an estimate of the numbers, including juveniles, likely to be admitted from the Continent to join relatives already in this country; how many applications have so far been received; and from what countries.

As stated last Tuesday in reply to the hon. Member for Salford North (Mr. McAdam), 109 aliens have arrived in this country under the scheme, but for the reasons given in that answer no inference can yet be drawn as to the total number likely to come here under the scheme. I am not in a position to say how many applications for visas have been made to the various British Passport Control Officers in Europe; nor can I give figures as to the number of distressed persons admitted under the scheme who have been inmates of concentration camps.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many applications have been received from persons in this country?

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that his Department is in official communication with the official body which is largely responsible for refugee work on the Continent—that is to say, the Inter-Governmental Committee on refugees—in order that the refugees who most require assistance shall be admitted to this country?

We are in communication with that body and, in fact, I myself have met representatives of it to discuss the matter.

Has the right hon. Gentleman put into operation those arrangements which he promised to make with respect to people now in Austria and Germany?

No, Sir. I much regret having to say that, owing to the disturbed state of those areas and the difficulty of communication therein, it has not yet been possible to establish the organisation that I hope very shortly to bring into being there.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the number so far admitted are less or more than he has expected, and, if less, whether they justify him widening the terms of entry?

I think the prospective numbers which I have in sight are about what I would have expected, and I do not think at the present time it would be wise to widen the scheme.

If my right hon. Friend should find within a few months that he has cast his net a little too narrowly, would he see whether the scheme could be widened, since there are some most unfortunate cases which just miss the operation of the present scheme?

I hope I have impressed the House previously with my desire to do all I can to lessen the appalling amount of suffering there is, but I am exceedingly anxious not to raise hopes that would be doomed to disappointment because that would be far more cruel than maintaining the present position.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, why so many refugees, within the classification and with relatives here who have applied for them, can still obtain no definite news of their release.

If my hon. Friend is referring to distressed persons in Germany or Austria, I am sorry that it has not been practicable to overcome more rapidly the difficulties connected with communications, transport and arrangements for identifying and clearing those who come within the scheme, but I am doing everything possible to facilitate the working of the scheme.

Does the Home Secretary fully realise the heart-breaking anxiety that is felt, not only by these people in Europe but also by their relatives who are anxious to have them over here?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman and the House that I am fully aware of these appalling circumstances, and I am striving with all my might and main to overcome the difficulties that confront us.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider approaching the President of the Board of Trade with a view to removing the rule that communication with persons in Germany is still trading with the enemy, because that is one of the great difficulties in this matter and in the entry of relatives to this country?

I have not encountered that particular difficulty but I will see if it is concerned with the matter.

Naturalisation

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what progress has been made in dealing with the arrears of applications for naturalisation; and if he has any further statement of policy to make in relation to fresh applications.

Since my statement in the House on 15th November last, over 1,000 of the pre-1940 applications have been reopened. Of these about 300 have been brought up to date by the applicants and are now being examined. As regards other classes of applicants to whom priority is to be given, plans for dealing expeditiously with the applications are in an advanced state and I hope to be in a position soon to give details of the procedure.

Have the applications which have been dealt with been made according to the instructions laid down by my right hon. Friend? Did these people make application, or were they dealt with without making application?

These were applications which were received prior to the suspension of naturalisation in 1940. About 1,000 of those have been reopened and 300 have been brought up to date by the applicants themselves.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that a considerable number of those pre-hostility applications have waited for several years before the commencement of hostilities, and will he therefore hasten proceedings?

I am anxious to do all I can to expedite this matter, consistent with the duties that are placed upon me of seeing that every person to whom naturalisation is granted is likely to be a worthy citizen of this country.

Would my right hon. Friend give favourable consideration to the case of Allied soldiers who have been stationed in this country during the war, who have married British girls and who wish to remain as citizens of this country, which apparently they are well qualified to do?

There are, of course, a number of considerations raised by my hon. and gallant Friend's question. In any event the last phrase that he used would have to be the governing factor, but I cannot allow the position to arise where-mere marriage to a British subject would be a ground for naturalisation.

Stowaways

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps are being taken to remove the 5,000 alien stowaways who were reported at the end of December to be in this country awaiting repatriation.

This Press statement was exaggerated. The total number of alien stowaways who arrived in the six months from July to December, 1945, inclusive was 137. Many of these have already been sent back and the usual arrangements are in hand for the removal of the rest.

Would the right hon. Gentleman indicate, in view of his reply to the Question, that the statement which appeared in a recent issue of the "Sunday Express" on this matter had no foundation in fact?

It had this foundation, that there were 137 stowaways on whom the superstructure of 5,000 was erected.

Mr. Carl Kuchenmeister (Repatriation)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the reasons why he is insisting on the repatriation of Mr. Carl Kuchenmeister, who has resided in this country since 1928, built up here a valuable business and who has an English wife and three British children.

This case has been considered not only by me but by three previous Home Secretaries. Each of my predecessors decided that it was necessary, during the war, to keep Mr. Kuchenmeister in detention as an enemy national. The same considerations as had led to his continued detention have led me, after careful consideration of all the circumstances, to the conclusion that it would not be conducive to the public good to allow this German national to remain in this country.

As a number of hon. Members of the House are interested in this case would the Home Secretary consider an impartial inquiry into it?

No, Sir. I have interviewed a number of hon. Members, including the hon. and gallant Member who has put the Question down. I can see no grounds for holding an inquiry into this matter, nor do I think that this person is a desirable person to remain in this country when his repatriation to Germany can be accomplished.

Will the Home Secretary bear in mind that while Mr. Kuchenmeister is being compulsorily repatriated against his will, there is another case of a gentleman called Mr. Adolf Caltabiano who is being compulsorily detained in this country against his will? Is he sure his Department has not got these two matters mixed up?

No, Sir. The friend of my hon. Friend was certified insane and is temporarily not under my jurisdiction.

Will the right hon. Gentleman—whose answer we could not hear at this end of the Chamber—in view of the fact that this man married a British woman and has three British children, and is highly regarded in engineering circles in Manchester and the engineering industry, assure the House that he has been? notified of the reasons for which he is being deported, because up to 24th January this year he had no knowledge of any kind whatever?

This deals with a point raised in a previous Question. Marriage to a British woman and having children born in this country is no ground for retention in this country of enemy nationals who are regarded as undesirable. I cannot think that this man is unaware of the reasons that have led to the decision which has been given.

I think this gentleman has all the information that is necessary for him to feel that he is being justly treated.

Identity Card Check

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what complaints he has received of the methods adopted by the police in connection with a check on identity cards among girls and young women in the West End of London on the evening of 25th January; why a black maria was used to transport those who failed to provide satisfactory evidence as to their identity; and if he will prohibit the practice of the use of police photographers during such operations.

No complaints have been received about the methods adopted by the police on the occasion in question. No use was made of a "black maria," and no police photographer was present.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that these mass detentions and interrogations will be discontinued at the earliest possible date?

No, Sir. I wish to thank the general public of both sexes for the way in which they are co-operating with the police in these matters in the interests of law and order in these very difficult times.

Temporary Absence

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why, in cases where he grants permission for aliens to leave the country for a temporary period, on their return to this country their passports are stamped as being only valid for six months, after which they must leave the country; and if he will take steps to put an end to this practice.

Broadly speaking, an alien who is unconditionally resident in this country is allowed on return from a short visit abroad to land unconditionally. An alien whose stay is on a temporary basis would normally be given leave to land on a temporary basis on return and if the period endorsed on the passport by the Immigration Officer is insufficient it is open to any alien who has adequate grounds for remaining here to apply for an extension.

While appreciating that the duration of stay of any alien in this country must obviously be at the discretion of the Home Secretary, why is it the common practice that, when these men or women who are allowed to leave temporarily return to this country, their passports are stamped for a period of six months, irrespective of the conditions referred to by my right hon. Friend?

That is not my information, nor is it my instruction. Normally, on re-admission an alien comes back on the same conditions as those under which he was here before he left.

Polish Forces Personnel

asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the granting of British nationality to those members of the Polish Forces who fought in the Allied cause and who wish to adopt British nationality; and how far such facilities will apply to members of other Polish Government Departments which were situated in Britain during the war

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the replies which I gave him on 15th October last, and to the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans) on 9th October last, to which I have nothing to add.

These replies merely said the question was being considered. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the anxiety and bewilderment caused, not only to the Poles, but to many of their friends in this country at the very prolonged delay?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware there are a large number of questions affected by the policy of the Government to which sympathetic consideration, active consideration, and consideration is being given; and that there is a strong feeling in all parts of the country that it is high time a definite statement of policy was given by the Government on this matter?

No, Sir. I think the generality of people in this country are quite well aware of the very large num- ber of pressing and difficult questions that have to be decided, and decided after consideration. I entirely disagree with the hon. Member.

Does the failure to make a statement today mean that in any way the present Government have gone back on the pledge that was given by the Coalition Government on this most important matter?

No, Sir. That was answered in the replies to which I have referred the hon. Member.

Questions

Sir Oswald Mosley (Firearms)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the theft of, among other articles, three revolvers, the property of Sir Oswald Mosley; whether Sir Oswald Mosley holds permits for the possession of these firearms; and, if so, on what grounds such permits were issued.

I am informed that the revolvers in question are claimed to be the property, and were in the possession, of Sir Oswald Mosley's son, Lieutenant Mosley. No record of the issue of a firearm certificate in respect of them has been found.

If it is necessary for this officer to keep these firearms lying around at home—and there is no reflection on him—could it be put to him by my right hon. Friend that it is unwise to do so when his home happens also to be the home of a leader of thugs and gangsters?

Could we have an assurance that these firearms were not issued to Sir Oswald Mosley when he was Chancellor of the Duchy in a Socialist Government?

I should think the age and pattern of the revolvers makes that improbable. With regard to the other matter, I am having the' circumstances investigated. No firearm certificate authorising anyone to have these revolvers has yet been found. There may be such a certificate in existence. When the investigations are complete appropriate action will be taken to dispose of them.

As appropriate action may be taken, we should wait for that and not prejudice the matter in advance.

Local Elections (Free Postage)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will provide that candidates at the forthcoming and subsequent local councils elections be allowed to send one communication to the electors free of postage.

This proposal would require legislation and I could consider it only on the basis that the cost would be reimbursed to the Postmaster-General by the local authorities, on whom falls the cost of local elections. I am so informing the County Councils Association, who made a similar request a few days ago.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, as a result of legislation, there has been a very large increase in the number of electors, and there is, therefore, a heavy burden on any would-be candidate, and many candidates are debarred because they cannot afford the cost of an election? Cannot the matter be reconsidered?

I have given an indication in the answer that I am willing to consider it if the local authorities will indicate they are prepared to bear the cost that would have to be incurred by the Postmaster-General in dealing with the matter.

Why is it necessary for the local authorities to bear the cost in this case when they are not called upon to bear the cost of a General Election?

Because a Parliamentary election is conducted for the nation. A local government election is conducted for the locality.

Holloway Prison

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware of the unsatisfactory conditions with regard to clothing and hygiene of prisoners in Holloway Gaol; and whether he will take immediate steps to effect an improvement.

It is my desire and the desire of the Prison Commissioners that there should be a continuous policy of improving prison standards, but as regards clothing and cleaning materials Holloway Prison, like any other institution, has to put up with the limitations imposed by present conditions of supply. If my hon. Friend will let me have particulars of the exact points he has in mind I will gladly consider them.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether if only in justice to that hardworked body of public servants the prison staffs, he will have a statement issued about Holloway prison, in view of the unfair attacks which have been made in some quarters upon its administration?

There was a Question in the name of the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) on the Order Paper today which dealt with the question of the recent disturbance at Holloway. Unfortunately the hon. Member was not here and the Question was not called, but I hope the reply will be included among the written answers.

Pensions and Grants

asked the Minister of Pensions how many men and women discharged from the services as unfit since September, 1939, have been refused a pension; and how many of these were placed in medical category Grade I when they entered the service.

In all some 680,000 men and women have been invalided from the Forces since 1939, but no statistics are available as to their medical category on enlistment. An award of pension has been made in about 285,000 cases. All invalidings are automatically notified to my Department irrespective of whether the individual desires that his entitlement to pension should be considered. In fact in well over half the cases where no award of pension was warranted the person concerned has at no time made or inferred anything in the nature of a claim.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is now prepared to remove the restriction in connection with disabled ex-Servicemen who marry later than 10 years after their injury is received.

In the opinion of His Majesty's Government the new provision enabling allowances for a wife and family to be paid where the pensioner's marriage took place not later than 10 years after the end of his war service generously meets the contention that an ex-Service war pensioner who had postponed his marriage until his return to civil life suffered hardship through not being eligible for family allowances with his disability pension.

I may add that a pensioner undergoing treatment which prevents his working, or classified as permanently unemployable through his pensionable disablement, may, without regard to the date of marriage, receive allowances for his wife and family; and if, after 3rd September, 1939, a pensioner dies as the result of war service a pension may be granted to his widow and children irrespective of the date of marriage.

While I thank the Minister for his reply and expressing appreciation of the very generous consideration he has given to this matter, will he bear in mind that it is a small number of persons who are concerned, and that they have a real sense of grievance? Would he make his concession complete by removing the restriction?

asked the Minister of Pensions the number of parents now in receipt of pensions for sons or daughters who lost their lives in the late war; and the amount per year now being paid.

At the end of 1945 approximately 37,500 pensions of a total value of £1,371,000 a year were in payment to parents of sons or daughters who lost their lives in the late war.

asked the Minister of Pensions the number of parents who have lost their sons or daughters and have been refused a pension because of the means test.

The number is approximately 37,700, but in all these cases the parents have been told that they may renew their applications if their circumstances should worsen materially at some future date.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is great dissatisfaction in these cases because they are excluded from the Royal Warrant which becomes operative as from tomorrow?

Is the Minister aware that there are people now living who lost sons in the Great War who were given an allowance, and on the very same stair there are families which have lost two sons in this war, who have educated them and put the whole of their savings into them, and though their two sons have been killed they have not received a single penny, and should not some recognition be given to people of that kind?

It may be that there are cases like that, but the present Pension Warrant provides that if such people fall into need at any time they can get a pension, and in such cases a pension would be much higher than the flat rate paid after the Great War.

Could not the right hon. Gentleman give further consideration to it and put an end to a situation in which there are so many thousands of forgotten mothers whose sons have been sacrificed in the war, and make certain they get some consideration?

asked the Minister of Pensions the estimated cost per year of paying a flat rate pension of 10s. per week to those parents who are denied a pension because of the means test now being applied.

No reliable estimate of the total cost can be made. As regards the recent war to grant a pension of 10s. a week to the parents of all, whether married or single, who lost their lives, would involve an additional cost of about £8 millions a year. If an award was limited to single men the additional cost would be not far short of £5 millions a year. There would also be substantial expenditure for which no estimate can be given in respect of the 1914–1918 war.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the figure now stated, £8,000,000, is much less than was paid in pensions to those who lost their lives in the Great War?

Housing

Permanent Schemes (Labour)

asked the Minister of Health whether he will give an estimate of the number of persons now engaged in building permanent houses.

Approximately 26,000 building workers are employed in Great Britain at present on permanent housing schemes of local authorities. I am unable at the moment to give figures of the building workers employed on house building by private developers but I hope to be in a position to do so before the end of next month.

Uniformity Agreement

asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that the Uniformity Agreement still applies to road and sewer construction, he will restore its applicability to housing works.

I do not think, all things considered, that this would be of assistance to the housing programme.

Local Government

Rating System

asked the Minister of Health whether he will state the policy of the Government with regard to the rating system, with special reference to the derating provisions of the Local Government Act of 1929.

As I have previously stated, I appreciate the need for examination of the machinery of local government finance and I do not exclude de-rating from that examination, but my hon. Friend will appreciate that it is not possible to have legislation for this purpose in the present session.

Councillors (Expenses)

asked the Minister of Health whether he will state the policy of the Government with regard to the reimbursement for loss of time and travelling expenses of public representatives on local governing bodies.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that numbers of rural workers are refusing nomination for the elections of the various local authorities owing to the loss of wages involved by the holding of such elective positions; and is he prepared to introduce legislation allowing payment to be made for the loss of wages incurred by members of local authorities.

This matter is receiving the sympathetic consideration of the Government, but in view of the many other more pressing problems requiring legislation I can hold out no hope of a Bill on the subject this session.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this question is affecting a very large number of people who would otherwise be selected, would stand, and would make very good councillors for the forthcoming county council elections, and would it be possible for him to make some statement that the Government are likely to remove this disability in the near future?

I appreciate the hardship occasioned by the absence of payment, but as my hon. Friend will realise, a principle of the greatest constitutional importance is involved, and we cannot consider giving the matter priority over the very many other much more important and urgent questions.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of county councils have passed resolutions in favour of this, and that the County Councils Association itself has decided in favour of it? Would not that assist him to come to an early decision?

I am also aware that my hon. Friends on this side of the House have passed a series of resolutions urging that we should legislate on those matters which are now making it impossible for us to introduce such a Bill at present.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that at the end of this Government's period of office there will be anyone left in England giving public service without thought of reimbursement or gain?

Questions

British Industry (Efficiency and Output)

asked the Prime Minister what steps the Government are taking to improve the production per man-hour in British industry generally.

It is not possible to state the Government's policies in this respect within the compass of an answer to a Parliamentary Question. The hon. and gallant Member can be assured that the Government are fully conscious of the urgent importance of this matter, and they will, in consultation with management and workers, do their utmost to encourage all possible steps to achieve conditions in British industry in which efficiency can be improved and output increased.

Is the Prime Minister aware of the very urgent need for a lead from the Government on this matter, and of the fact that industry generally is not getting it at the present time?

National Wages Policy

asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to state the Government's wage policy for industry.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will issue a White Paper indicating and explaining the Government's wages policy for all industries.

I have been asked to reply. I have at present nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for West Harrow (Mr. Bower) on 13th December last.

Did not the Prime Minister this very week assure the House categorically that the Government have a coherent wages policy? Why is it we cannot have a statement? [ Interruption .] I beg to move we adjourn—[ Interruption .]

Is the hon. Member rising to ask a supplementary question? I am not quite sure but I thought that the hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) gave notice of raising the matter on the Adjournment.

I wanted the House to adjourn so that we could discuss and clarify the position. The Prime Minister made a categorical statement and I cannot get any answer. That is something different so a supplementary is in Order.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is some genuine apprehension about the position? If the Government have a wages policy is there any reason why they should not state it publicly? I have asked for a White Paper. What is the objection to that?

If the hon. Gentleman will refer to the reply to which I have directed his attention I think he will understand it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to bring before the House a Government statement of policy on the national control of profits?

Military Service (Government Policy)

asked the Prime Minister if he will make any statement on the future of compulsory military service.

Is the Prime Minister aware that that statement has beep made for months now? Is he aware of the disturbing nature of the fact that no policy has been declared in connection with military service, and that young men have to break the study both of their trades and professions, and that their parents are greatly disturbed? When does he propose to make a statement on this very important subject?

In due course. Obviously a matter of this kind does require very considerable examination in the light of the whole defence situation, and it is impossible to make a statement without very careful consideration. I am not prepared to do it at the present time.

I quite understand the difficulties of this question from the military angle, although the Prime Minister will also understand that there are great difficulties from the angle of the young people themselves. We on this side of the House, not agreeing with the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern), would be willing to support the Government on certain lines of policy, and I think it would be for the benefit of the State if a declaration of Government policy came at an early date.

I did not raise this question in a prejudiced manner. I was asking for a statement.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is now able to relieve the anxiety of parents and others by stating the maximum period which youths of 18 years of age, now being called up to the Forces, will be required to serve.

asked the Minister of Labour how long it is expected that men, now being called up for service in His Majesty's Forces, will be expected to serve, in view of the disturbance of professional and academic training that long periods of compulsory service are bound to make and the high percentage of men who, after service, decide against completing their professional and academic courses.

This important matter is receiving the careful consideration of the Government. We realise the desirability of making an announcement as soon as possible, but there are a number of factors involved, and the matter cannot be decided in a hurry. I can assure the hon. Members that the Government's decision will be announced without any avoidable delay.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no one is asking for the Government to a make a decision without giving this matter adequate attention, but they have had plenty of time, and will he not give a definite date as to when an announcement will be made?

I wish it were possible to do so, but there are other circumstances, such as those to which the Prime Minister has already referred, and they are being weighed in the balance. One factor, of course, is the increased pay and allowances, and the number of volunteers which these will attract to the Services. I hope to make a statement very soon, but I would not like to pledge myself to any time.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that not only have the Government not announced a policy on this matter, but there is also great dilatoriness on the part of the Service Departments in calling up young men, especially in the case of the Navy? In many cases several months elapse after the date of their call-up to the Colours before these young men join the Services, and is it not very bad for the young men to waste their time in this way and bad for the country as well?

We have had our attention drawn to cases of that kind, and steps are being taken to overcome them.

With regard to "being weighed in the balance," is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is Scriptural authority for saying that when they were weighed in the balance they were found wanting?

Atomic Energy (Development)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied that the contemplated scale of British research and production in relation to atomic energy is sufficient to ensure the industrial future of this country in five or ten years' time against competition by any other Power; and when it is contemplated that Britain will be able to manufacture plutonium at the minimum significant rate, say, 100 grammes per day

His Majesty's Government hope that the use of atomic energy will be developed in co-operation rather than in competition with other nations. It is their intention that research and production shall be carried on in this country on a scale sufficient for this purpose, but I am not prepared to give an estimate of the date on which any given rate of output of material will be achieved.

Can the Prime Minister assure the House that the main object of the research proceeding at Didcot is the peacetime development of atomic energy, and not research into atomic destruction?

In view of the immense importance of this matter to the industrial future of this country, will the Prime Minister state the reason for the continuation of secrecy? Also, when do the Government hope to be in a position to place the full facts and their proposals before this House?

The matter of atomic energy is one, as the hon. Member knows, in which we are working in close co-operation with the United States of America and Canada; also, the whole matter has been referred to the United Nations Organisation. Therefore, clearly, any statement which is to be made must be concerted with other Governments.

Germany

Poles (Repatriation)

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he is aware that, on 6th December, 1945, a British colonel visited the Polish displaced persons at Delmenhorst and informed them that all those who had originally consented to be repatriated would have to go back to Poland whether they liked it or not; and whether he will give an assurance that this instruction will be countermanded and that no pressure will be put on persons to return to Poland if they do not wish to do so.

I am aware of the visit referred to but I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave him on a similar Question the day before yesterday.

Is the Minister aware that he then assured me that this instruction was properly understood and that that assurance was given before? But still these military officers continue to carry out these persecutions. Will the hon. Gentleman take steps to see that the regional officers all over the British-occupied zone understand the policy of His Majesty's Government on this matter?

I have taken steps to ensure that this policy is being strictly observed, as he will see from the answer I gave the day before yesterday. I go further and say that I am satisfied it is now being strictly observed.

In view of the very great and proper interest taken in all parts of the House, in this question of refugees, and displaced persons, will the hon. Gentleman consider publishing a White Paper showing the scope of the problem at the present time and the action of the Government in dealing with it?

Newspapers, British Zone

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many newspapers are now published in the British zone in Germany; which political parties they represent; and what is their individual circulation.

Fourteen newspapers are now published in the British zone and the British sector of Berlin. Ten of them, with a total circulation of 4,547,000, are published by the Military Government. The remaining four are political and published under licence: The "Aachener Nachrichten," the "Weser Kurier," the "Braunschweiger Zeitung," which are Social Democrat papers with circulations of 125,000, 155,000 and 152,000 respectively, and the "Luneburger Landeszeitung," which is Liberal, with a circulation of 177,500. The newspapers published by the Military Government will be replaced as soon as possible by licensed German newspapers sponsored by political parties.

Can the hon. Gentleman say from where they get their newsprint, and if some of it could not be released for this country?

Can the Minister say whether these are all daily papers, or are some of them weekly papers?

The amount of the newsprint is very small, and this makes our task very difficult indeed. At the moment, it is only possible to publish these newspapers twice a week, and we see no immediate prospect of being able to increase the circulation, although we hope to extend the number of newspapers over the zone.

Interpreters

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster why civilian aliens are debarred from interpreting and similar work in the British zone, though the U.S. administration makes use of them.

Appointments to the British element of the Control Commission for Germany are governed by an international agreement on the machinery of control in Germany. The agreement provides that civilian nationals of other United Nations may be appointed in special cases, but it does not provide for the appointment of neutral or enemy nationals.

Will the Minister say why the nationals of the country cannot be employed in this way?

It states specifically who can be employed, namely, the nationals of the country controlling the zone and, in certain cases, other United Nations nationals. This by clear implication debars Germans and other ex-enemy nationals.

Questions

Austria (Children)

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether, in view of the food shortage in Vienna and other industrial towns in Austria and the incidence of sickness and mortality among the children resulting from it, he will arrange to have children suffering from malnutrition evacuated to country districts in the British zone where food is in greater supply; and whether he will consider bringing such a scheme before the Allied Commission with a view to securing its operation in other zones.

Some 11,000 children have already been evacuated from Vienna to Upper Austria and Salzburg, and further moves are contemplated. These arrangements have been co-ordinated by the quadripartite welfare committee for the city of Vienna. Similar arrangements have been made to evacuate children from other industrial areas of Austria; some 10,000 have gone or are going to Switzerland.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the position is desperately urgent, and that the condition of the children in Vienna is so bad that any sort of epidemic will bring about an appalling mortality?

We are well aware of the importance of this, as the figures of the number already evacuated indicate. Movement is going on so far as facilities, and, of course, the consent of the parents permit. It is hoped that it will be possible to increase the number of children to be evacuated from Lower Austria in particular as soon as transport can be arranged.

Appointments Department (Placings, Ex-Servicemen)

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the number of ex-Servicemen placed in employment by the Appointments Department of his Ministry since 31st October, 1945.

During the period 1st November to 14th January, 1946, the latest date for which figures are available, 1,132 ex-Servicemen, of whom 42 were ex-members of the Merchant Navy, were placed in employment by the Appointments Department.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state what action he proposes to take to improve these figures?

We are taking very extensive action, because this is a question of considerable importance. I am happy to say that in many cases we find employers, especially of the larger firms, most anxious to co-operate with us. I would like to point out that a great number—practically one-third on our list—are men already in jobs who are anxious to improve their positions. They will, therefore, not be on the unemployment list.

Demobilisation (Students)

asked the Minister of Labour what are his reasons for not releasing students over Group 49, in view of the fact that this concession was made before the end of the Japanese war and that the universities are unable to plan their student entrance satisfactorily until they know when those in Group 49 and above are likely to be released.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer already given him on 30th October, in which I pointed out that these releases in Class B were made with the object of enabling the universities to resume their arts courses. This object has already been attained.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the universities are experiencing great difficulty in regulating the number of students coming up to the universities, owing to the Government being unable to make up their minds as to when students will be released and thus be enabled to go to the universities?

I cannot recall any representations on that score having been made to us.

Business of the House

May I ask the Leader of the House whether he can make a statement on the Business of the House for next week?

Yes, Sir. The Business for next week will be as follows:

Monday—Further progress will be made with the Ministers of the Crown (Transfer of Functions) Bill. Report and Third Reading of the Local Government (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Bill, and the Assurance Companies Bill. Committee stage of the Civil Supplementary Estimates contained in House of Commons Paper No. 56 which was available yesterday morning. We shall begin with the Estimates in Class 1.

Tuesday—Second Reading of the Investment (Control and Guarantees) Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.

Wednesday and Thursday—Second Reading of the National Insurance Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.

Friday—Report and Third Reading of the Agriculture (Artificial Insemination) Bill; and further consideration of the Civil Supplementary Estimates.

May I ask in regard to Business on Wednesday and Thursday whether the right hon. Gentleman will bear in mind the answer which he gave to my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) so long ago as 13th December, when he was asking him whether we could have this Bill before Christmas, and the right hon. Gentleman said:

"I cannot be sure, but I hope it will be before the House rises. In any case, I hope that the Bill will be available in dummy, so that the text may be available shortly afterwards."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th December, 1945; Vol. 417, c. 634.]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that actually the Bill was available to us only last Thursday evening at 7.30, and that this is more than a month later than his own forecast? May I also remind him that the Minister in charge of this subject gave an assurance to my right hon. Friend, in view of what the Leader of the House himself said, that the House would Want ample opportunity to consider this Bill? I am not dealing with the merits of the Measure, in respect of which there is a wide measure of agreement, but I must ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he really thinks that this House should consider a Bill of this importance and complexity at extremely short notice, in direct contradiction of the undertaking which he himself has given.

What I said before Christmas, on 13th December, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden, who asked when the National Insurance Bill would be available to Members, was:

"I cannot be sure but I hope it will be before the House rises."

It was not, but if it had been before the House—

I have read it all. I am quite safe—

"In any case, I hope that the Bill will be available in dummy, so that the text may be available shortly afterwards."

That would have meant when we came back. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] In the Recess; that is quite fair. My answer to that is, if the Bill had been then available and printed, we should have been entitled to have the Second Reading earlier than we are taking it. As it is, the House will have had the Bill before it for practically a fortnight. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes, because if we were taking the Second Reading at 7.30 on Thursday next instead of Wednesday, it would be a fortnight, and I think that is reasonable time for an examination of the Bill. Moreover, it must be remembered that this whole subject has been debated before. The House is very familiar with the issues, and I cannot accept the view that we are unreasonable in this matter.

The right hon. Gentleman is right when he says this is a subject with which the House is familiar, but may I ask him to bear in mind that it has taken the Government all this time to get their proposals ready? It is no complaint on our part that the Government took all this time, but surely it is reasonable, if we are to make contributions in the way we should, to give us a chance to examine the question. If it takes two months more than the estimate to prepare the Bill, cannot we be given three clear weeks to examine it adequately?

I do not see where the two months are. On the face of it I think the calculations are wrong, but the Government came into office in August and have produced this Bill much quicker than previous Governments have prepared legislation on this subject. I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the Opposition's convenience and their opportunity to master the Bill is a fair point and has to be taken into account, but I do think that in all the circumstances—I certainly would not say the time was excessive—the time given is not unreasonable for this Second Reading.

May I add my appeal to that of the acting Leader of the Opposition, not merely because of the National Insurance Bill, but also because of the very heavy legislative programme for Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday? Here are two Bills which will affect the lives of the people of this country. The Investment Bill, which is to be taken on Tuesday, and which is a new programme of legislation and a new departure, is to be followed immediately by the National Insurance Bill. Might I appeal to the Leader of the House not to saddle us with such a heavy legislative programme in one week?

I cannot see the point of that. The Investment Bill is a Bill the issues of which are well understood. After all, these are Second Readings and not Committee stages, and it is not unreasonable to ask the House of Commons to master the context of a Bill for the purpose of Second Reading Debate in the time it has been available. I agree, that the rushing of the Committee stage, unduly after publication would be another matter, but I should have thought for Second Reading Members in all quarters of the House ought to have been ready to express their views a fortnight after having seen the Bill.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider this? He says these are Second Reading discussions, but I suppose that like other Bills, this one will be sent upstairs, so that the Second Reading is the only chance which nine-tenths of the Members of this House have of expressing their views on a Measure which affects everyone in this country, and which the Coalition Government and now this Government have worked on for many months. I think this Bill has been in preparation for more than a year and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not reconsider, between now and tomorrow morning, next week's Business and try to enable the House to do its job.

That is exactly what I am concerned about. The House has got to do this job, and it has got to carry through a heavy legislative programme. I cannot admit the doctrine that Members of Parliament are incapable of reading and understanding this Bill in almost a fortnight. They can do it and they ought to be able to do it, and I think that that is quite a reasonable time in the circumstances. I wish I could adjust it, but I cannot because of other things which have got to be got through. If there is any way I can take to ease the situation I will consider it.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman consider lengthening the time allowed for the Second Reading of the National Insurance Bill, bearing in mind that large numbers of Members in this House have not had the opportunity of debating this question of social insurance? Will he not allocate an additional day so that the Financial Resolution of this Bill, at least, may not be taken in the same manner as last night's Financial Resolution on the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill?

I am quite prepared to discuss through the usual channels the question of the Financial Resolution. I admit that this Financial Resolution is one of a character for which it is reasonable to assume that there should be some elbow room for adequate discussion. In that way there might be more extended discussion than could be given in the ordinary way, and if the right hon. Gentleman opposite likes that aspect, and is prepared to discuss it, I will certainly consider it.

In view of the manner in which representations are met from this side of the House with regard to discussions in the House on matters of considerable importance, may I ask the right hon. and totalitarian Member—

The hon. Member is entitled to use the words "right hon. Member," but he is not entitled to say the "right hon. and totalitarian Member."

I do not think hon. Members should make such insinuations when speaking of right hon. Gentlemen.

In accordance with the Ruling from the Chair I will withdraw and will conclude by asking the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I think I have withdrawn, and if it is not clear that I have done so, I will do so again.

I will conclude by asking the right hon. Gentleman when His Majesty's Government propose to announce the date on which we can expect the burning down of the House of Commons?

May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will give earnest consideration to the giving of another day for the Debate on the National Insurance Bill? Many hon. Members were prevented from debating the Second Reading of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill, and now we are to be prevented from speaking on this great national Measure. If we are not Members of the Committee upstairs to which it will be sent, what part can we play as Members of Parliament?

I think that if the right hon. Gentleman opposite agrees, we might discuss a possible way of making an adjustment through the usual channels. He has been Leader of the House, and knows my difficulty, and if I can do anything to help the situation in that direction, as between the Bill and the Financial Resolution, I will see what can be done.

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. We have not raised this matter on any party basis, because this is a Bill which affects everyone in this House. In regard to the Financial Resolution we are glad of any concession we can get anywhere in the world as it is now, but my worry is that many Members of the House, especially Members who have many other duties besides reading a Bill, cannot be expected to master the details of a Bill of this nature in the short time given to them.

I think that for the purposes of the Second Reading the time given is reasonably adequate. If it were possible to have given a few more days they would have been given, though I do not agree that the time given is unreasonable. The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that we have got to get the Financial Resolution of a Bill of this sort through, and for that purpose we suspend the Rule. I do not want to keep Members, up half the night needlessly. So let us talk, and see if we can do a deal. But if we are to do a deal there must be undertakings on both sides.

The right hon. Gentleman said that he thought the House was familiar with the principles behind these proposals, but there are many new Members who were fighting during the war, and who did not have any opportunity to take part in the Debates that went on here. There were some who did not have time to read the Beveridge Report, and in view of that I ask him to give consideration to the newer Members who were in the Forces during the war.

I would remind the hon. and gallant Member that A.B.C.A. took the greatest trouble, under the late Secretary of State for War, to keep those Members informed, and that any candidate for Parliament at the last Election, let alone a Member, who had not mastered the Beveridge Report and the discussions which took place on it, was a poor candidate.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this Bill was intended to replace, or to some extent to codify, a number of major Acts of Parliament dealing with unemployment, pensions, health and other matters? The manner in which the Bill has been drafted is by reference to Acts dealing with those matters, and by Schedules repealing parts of those Acts, which makes the whole thing extremely complicated, and difficult enough to understand by anybody who has been interested in the subject for several years. Therefore, I cannot see how any Member could master a Bill of this sort, with the changes which have been made, in the time available.

I cannot follow that all that detail is vital to a Second Reading Debate. That aspect of the matter is bound to be technical, and probably both sides of the House will have to rely on the advice of their lawyer colleagues. I do not see that that is a vital point on a question of the principle of the Bill.

Does the Minister realise that it is not only a question of having 12 to 14 days in which Members can familiarise themselves with the contents of this vast Measure, but that it is a question of its impact on the country as a whole? The people who have sent us to this place should have an opportunity, through us, of expressing their views adequately on this Measure.

Can the Minister say when the long promised and overdue Debate on Palestine will take place, and will he bear in mind that it is desirable that the Commission of Inquiry should have the views of this House at a reasonably early date?

I appreciate the point, but I cannot add anything to what I said last week. I do my best to meet the wishes of the House as fully as possible, but it is a little difficult when my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is so heavily engaged in connection with the United Nations Conference.

Is it the Minister's intention to provide facilities for a discussion on the new code of pay allowances and pensions for the Forces, for which this House is responsible?

By the way it has been received I thought there was general satisfaction about it. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Well, the hon. Members who are saying "No," presumably want to feel like that, but that is my impression. The Government had not anticipated that a special discussion would be necessary.

May I make a point with regard to the reluctance of the Leader of the House to give further time for the Debate on the National Insurance Bill? The right hon. Gentleman referred to a fortnight as being ample in which to absorb the full implications of the Measure, but may I remind him that we have had two first class subjects to absorb during that time—one dealing with civil aviation and the other dealing with coal? That being so, we have not had adequate time to consider the National Insurance Bill.

I appreciate that, but I am bound to warn the hon. and gallant Member that he will have a lot more to absorb before we are done.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to—

Dock Workers (Regulation of Employment) Bill, without Amendment.

Amendments to,—

India (Proclamations of Emergency) Bill [ Lords ], without Amendment.

Orders of the Day

Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

3.35 p.m.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

The Bill which the House is being asked to consider today is a short but exceedingly important one. The House may recall that when I made a statement on housing policy last October I promised that the Government would bring in, as early as was practicable, a Measure to expedite the acquirement of land for housing and other purposes. It would have been satisfactory to me if I could have had that Measure earlier, but the House knows that our legislative business is very congested, as the discussion a few minutes ago will have emphasised. Therefore, I have had to wait a little while in the queue. However, I hope that when I have had an opportunity of explaining the provisions of the Bill, the Government will get the co-operation of all parties to expedite its passage into law, so that we may have the use, as early as possible, of the facilities it gives us.

Anxiety to develop the housing programme is, I know, universal, and there is no part of the House which would wish to deny the Government any powers which are necessary in order to build houses. It is necessary to remind the House that houses are built on land. It is necessary to emphasise that, because it is a point that sometimes is not given sufficient prominence in the minds of hon. Members opposite. Perhaps it will be convenient if I spend a short time in refreshing the mind of the House about the powers possessed by the Government and by local authorities for the acquisition of land. I do so, not in any spirit of school-mastership, but because it will enable us to understand the Bill very much better if I describe the processes which exist at the moment by which local authorities are able to acquire land for various purposes.

The old procedure is, of course, by Provisional Order. By this a local authority must first publish in one or more-newspapers, circulating in the district in which the land is situated, a notice-describing it and stating the purpose for which it is required. The local authority must serve on every owner, lessee and occupier, except tenants for a month or less, a notice indicating the land and the purpose for which it is required, stating that they propose to ask the Minister to make a Provisional Order for compulsory purchase and specifying a time limit for, and the manner in which, objections can be made to the proposed Order. If none of these persons object, or if the objection is withdrawn, the Minister, if satisfied that proper notice has been published and served, may make a Provisional Order. But if an objection is not withdrawn he must order a local inquiry, although if the objection relates only to matters of compensation he may dispense with the local inquiry.

After the Provisional Order has been made, the local authority must serve a copy of the Order on the persons who received the notice. But a Provisional Order is of no effect until confirmed by a confirming Act. If, while the confirming Bill is pending in either House, a petition is presented against the Order, the petitioner is allowed to appear before the Committee to which the Bill is referred, and oppose the Order, as in the case of a private Bill. If the Order is opposed in either House it is referred to a Committee and is dealt with exactly like a private Bill, the promoters and petitioners being represented by counsel. If the Order is not opposed an officer of the Ministry attends to explain any points. After the confirming Order has been passed the validity of the Order cannot further be questioned. There are certain other details in the proceedings necessary before the Order in fact takes effect.

I have explained that procedure to the House in order that it may see the background against which this Bill is set. It is true that that procedure has been largely transcended. It is necessary to> remind the House why. The procedure was tedious, expensive, and gave endless opportunities for delay. At the end of the last war, the first modification was made by the then Minister of Health, now Lord Addison, who adopted a much quicker procedure for the acquisition of land needed for certain works of public utility, but Provisional Order procedure applied still to most forms of compulsory purchase exercised by local authorities. In 1930 my right hon. Friend, now Lord Privy Seal and then Minister of Health, found it necessary to devise another expedient and for the Provisional Order was substituted compulsory purchase or ministerial order. But these powers are renewed from year to year by the Expiring Laws Continuance Act and they might lapse at any time. If they did all the local authorities would find themselves for public health purposes, right back with the Provisional Order, and it would be practically impossible for us to develop our programmes.

The purpose of the first Clause of this Bill, therefore, is to clear that matter up and to make the procedure of the Public Works Facilities Act, with some minor modifications, a uniform procedure and to apply it to all purposes for which Government departments have the powers of compulsory purchase. It will be observed therefore that this Bill does not so much increase the scope of compulsory purchase as amend the machinery and make it easier of operation. I think Members in all parts of the House will appreciate that it is really indefensible that grave powers of this sort should be continued from year to year in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act. The position should be regularised and that is what the first Clause of the Bill does.

I will explain, with the permission of the House, the procedure under the Compulsory Purchase Order. Before submitting the Order to the Minister, the local authority must publish in one or more newspapers circulating within the district in which they exercise their functions, a notice stating that the order has been made, describing the area comprised in it and naming a place where a copy of the Order and of the map referred to in it may be seen at all reasonable hours. They must serve on every owner, lessee and occupier, except tenants for a month or less, a notice stating the effect of the Order and that it is about to be submitted to the Minister for confirmation and specifying the time within which, and the manner in which, objections can be made. If no objection is made by such persons or if all objections are withdrawn, the Minister may confirm the Order with or without modification, but if not, he must hold a local inquiry, after which he may confirm the Order either with or without modification. If the objection relates solely to the amount of compensation, the local inquiry can be dispensed with.

The Order, as confirmed by the Minister, must not authorise the local authority to purchase compulsorily any land not included in the Order as originally submitted. The local authority can at any time after notice to treat has been served, enter on, and take possession of, the land after giving the owner and occupier not less than 14 days' notice. The amount of compensation is left to be settled after possession is taken.

That is the procedure under which land is, at the moment, being acquired for housing and other purposes for which there exist powers of compulsory purchase. The procedure is very much simpler and cheaper, as hon. Members will see, than the Provisional Order, but nevertheless it still involves delay. The first Clause of the Bill introduces two modifications. It enables the appropriate Minister to dispense with a referencing in any particular case where he thinks it unnecessary As hon. Members who are Members of local authorities will know, this is an extremely tedious business in many instances and in order to quicken, up this procedure, and make it more applicable to modern conditions, the Minister will be able, if he wishes, to dispense with referencing in particular circumstances. Where he does not dispense with it, it still has to be done. It makes a further modification. The Minister need not, unless he wishes, hold a public inquiry, but may hold a meeting instead. It often happens that when people get together at a meeting, they reach agreement much more quickly than they would by holding a local inquiry. With the exception of those two modifications the procedure is as it was established under the Public Works Facilities Act but it is now made available to all authorities who have powers of compulsory purchase.

I have found, and I think my predecessors have found, that on occasions when quick action is needed, this procedure also is too dilatory. It is quite true that we have a considerable amount of land in the possession of local authorities. Indeed it is true to say that, globally, we have more land available than we shall be able to build houses on for some years. I can see that point, but the ownership is not evenly distributed. Some local authorities have far more land than they will be able to use in the next two or three years: others have none, and it is the essence of the successful operation of a housing programme that houses shall be going up, this Spring, everywhere. The even distribution of house building is a prerequisite of success. As I have mentioned before in the House, the building force, both employees and employers, distributes itself over the country in accordance roughly with local housing needs. The workers are migratory and if no houses are being built in a particular place they are liable to go somewhere else where building is going on; and then the local authority has all the trouble of trying to induce them to go back again. This is particularly important as men are coming out of the Services. They will, naturally, want to attach themselves to the housing work which is going on nearest to their homes. That is why it is essential that we should be able to expedite the acquisition of land by all authorities charged with responsibility for housing.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is equally, if not more, important that action should be taken to speed up the dilatory authorities?

Certainly, and I think hon. Members will agree that a very great deal of speeding up has been done. It is no use speeding up local authorities unless we put an effective legal instrument in their hands. Local authorities naturally want to get land with the consent of the owner. It often happens that there are elements present who desire to have voluntary negotiation rather than to apply powers of compulsory purchase. The result is that often, before this machinery begins to operate, weeks or months of discussion have gone on with the landlord. The landlord, knowing very well that the land cannot be alienated from him, except by legal action of this sort, which will be long, is able to hold up the local authorities. I see a right hon. Gentleman opposite shaking his head. I can assure him that I have been present at conferences of housing authorities in different parts of, the country, and have found everywhere that this point comes out. Everywhere the discussion takes place, and that is particularly true where local landlords have acquired quite considerable influence upon the local authority. Sometimes the landlord pushes forward his own considerations, as though they were social amenities that were being interfered with.

If that discussion proves unfruitful, and the landlord refuses to let his land go, the local authority has to start proceedings which may take from four to nine months, depending entirely upon the length of the inquiry. In these days and for our purposes, that is not good enough. The interests of owners of land must be considered as secondary to the housing needs of the nation. We must have powers. I will give a further reason why we must have powers to speed up the acquisition of land. We are trying to develop houses in a novel way. We are trying to use systems of prefabrication which involve centralised purchase and central organisation. What is much more important, in order that the erection of houses may be economical, there should be a harmonious and uninterrupted flow from the factory to the site. If, at any moment, that flow is interrupted, and storage and distributing centres have to be established, at once the cost of the houses goes up astronomically. We have found this to be the case with the temporary houses. A great deal of the cost of the temporary house programme arises from the difficulty of marrying two principles—the construction of houses on thousands of different sites, varying from four houses to 400 or 4,000, and the use of one or two production centres.

The system of prefabrication can be exploited in a fruitful way only if site preparation marches harmoniously with production. If authorities in any area have not got their housing sites prepared, the whole process is interfered with. It is essential that the Government, that I, should have these powers from the House of Commons, so that the local authorities should be able to exercise them.

May I interrupt the right hon. Gentleman? Could he inform the House whether there are cases in which site preparation by local authorities is behind the arrival of the prefabricated houses?

Yes, Sir, there are instances of that sort, although on the whole, it is true to say that the local authority site preparation has been ahead—[HON. MEMBERS. "Oh "] Yes, Sir. This fact is a source of much misunderstanding, and perhaps I may be permitted to refer to it, without incurring the charge of extending the discussion too much. People have said: "The local authorities have had their sites prepared for a long time. Where are the houses?" The fact of the matter is that it is essential that the sites should be prepared ahead of the houses. The delay which takes place between the completion of a site and the delivery of the house by the Ministry of Works' contractors is an essential cushion. It would be calamitous if the houses were ready before the sites, because those appalling storage and distribution costs would begin to mount.

There are one or two instances where sites have not been prepared and where particular action has had to be taken, which I can explain to the House if hon. Members wish me to do so. There is a case about which there may be some controversy in London. I think it is at East Ham, where we have had to acquire the fringe of Epping Forest. I regret very much that we have had to do it but it is for temporary houses. The people of East Ham must have shelter. If, in other parts of London, it has been necessary to take the fringes of parks and open spaces to provide temporary houses, then the commoners of Epping Forest must surrender to the overwhelming needs of the local inhabitants.

There is a further reason, and I hope that the House will bear with me by listening to it. The President of the Board of Trade must have power of purchase. It is proposed to give it to him. In the Distribution of Industry Act last year, powers of compulsory purchase were conferred upon the President of the Board of Trade. There is a considerable number of instances, some very serious indeed, where failure to acquire land quickly has resulted in factories not being put up. I am especially concerned with this matter. My own constituency is in a development area. I believe that a past President of the Board of Trade explained that owing to its record of unemployment in the past the area was among the first priorities. There are very few sites for factories in South Wales, in those narrow valleys. We are caught in the straitjacket of private landlordism in those valleys, and we cannot move. Some of the valleys are so narrow that even the rivers have to run on their sides. There are very few housing sites. Although we are classed as a first priority, on two occasions that area has failed to obtain a factory because a landlord has refused to release sites.

The difficulty lies, of course, in the fact that the manufacturer who wants to go there is not willing to wait for six months in order to get his factory put up. He goes somewhere else. He cannot afford the time. So the manufacturers in this case went elsewhere. It was one of the most wicked illustrations of the abuse of property that has ever been brought to my notice. It is an area from which the landlord, who is the coalowner, has sucked riches for the last 100 years. The area has created millionaires, and now a part of it has been rendered derelict. The orange is almost dry. The sites are in possession of the colliery owners but, like vultures, they will not desert the carrion for fear there might be the slightest bit of nutriment left. They insist upon hanging on to the land. The result is that the poor people of the neighbourhood are reduced to impoverishment while they wait for the factory to be established.

Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point, may I ask whether we are to understand that, under existing legislation, the President of the Board of Trade has power of compulsory purchase, but that it is not speedy enough, and that the President must have other powers?

I thought I was making that very clear. In these instances the power is not sufficient to enable the President of the Board of Trade to get the manufacturer on to the site quickly enough, because the site cannot be made available; the manufacturer is a person who cannot wait; he is anxious to get going. For instance in West Cumberland,—in Aspatria—a factory of 33,000 square feet, costing £36,000 to employ 156, was approved in July. The Board have only just obtained owners' agreement, to the district valuer's price. In the North East, in October the President expressed the view that a 60 acre site at Jarrow should be developed quickly, and at that time he authorised an expenditure of £90,000 en site preparation alone. The estate was planned to give employment to 4,000. There were 53 tenants interested, and the Board have only just received permission for entry on part of the site. In South Wales, a factory of 14,000 square feet, at Maesteg, costing £14,000, to employ 250, was approved in September. The Board have still not obtained the land.

Is it not possible that people at present occupying land for some useful purpose have also to be considered?

Yes, but I thought it was regarded on all sides of the House as an overriding public interest, that these distressed areas should not become festering cesspools of unemployment, and if therefore the claims of private landlords are permitted to obstruct the building—[ Interruption .] This is the evidence. The rights of 53 tenants of this great estate must, surely, be overriden in the interests of the requirements of the population. Hon. Members would not have argued this during the war; they would have set aside the claims at once.

I know the hon. and gallant Gentleman is interested in tenants. He has devoted a long life to the advancement of the tenants.

I am glad the right hon. Gentleman has brought that to the notice of the House. My objections are on the ground of the great hardships put upon tenants and occupiers.

If the hon. and gallant Member catches Mr. Speaker's eye, he will probably have an opportunity of expressing his feelings.

A factory at Pontypool, of 23,000 square feet to employ 250, was approved in September. The Board have still not obtained the land. In Scotland, a trading estate of 50 acres at Port Glasgow, was approved in September. The Board have just obtained the landowners' agreement to entry on the land, subject to giving notice to tenants. I give these illustrations to show that the existing procedure is quite inappropriate to modern economic developments. I am quite certain that many hon. Members will agree with me. One of the tragedies of the immediate post-war period is that un- employment once more begins to grow sharply, in the very areas which suffered most from it in the years between the wars. If hon. Members look at the unemployment graph of Great Britain at the present time, they will see that it is appearing in Merthyr Tydfil, in the areas of Monmouthshire, in Rhondda, on the North East coast, and some areas of Lancashire, Lanarkshire—areas which were the pitiful victims of sustained unemployment in the years between the wars. Full employment in those areas arose from war expenditure; munition factories were constructed there, and of course now that the munition factories are easing down, unemployment rises once more. Now that new industries are being established, and other industries expanded, it is important that they should be expanded quickly in these development areas. There would be a much easier solution of this problem than this—if the Government entered directly as an employer, and become established as such. What we are trying to do is to induce private employers to go there, and private employers cannot be expected to wait six or seven months for the sites, whilst competitors are able to get going in other parts of the country. This expedited machinery is absolutely essential for our purposes.

The machinery suggested is extremely quick. It is that established for the acquisition of land for temporary houses. All the local authorities need do is to serve notice, if necessary, on the site, and act within 14 days. All discussion about compensation can be going on when the local authority is in possession and enjoyment of the site. The Government have no desire to use these powers frivolously. In the first place, they cannot be exercised at all until the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Town and Country Planning have had an opportunity of considering the site. It is, therefore, going to be cleared by these two Departments first of all—it would certainly be extremely undesirable for a local authority to rush in and take a piece of land without any consideration. Furthermore, the local authority cannot use these powers without permission from the Minister, whether he be the Minister of War Transport, the President of the Board of Trade, the Minister of Health, or the Secretary of State for Scotland. There are, therefore, three safeguards against the use of these powers, where they are not needed, first the two Departments—the Ministry of Town and Country Planning and the Minister of Agriculture—and then the appropriate Minister. We are very keenly aware of the fact that the application of these powers ought not to be universal, and should only be used where needed in order to acquire the land for urgent public purposes.

Before concluding, I must say one word about the use of these powers by the Minister of War Transport. That Minister needs them in the first place because he himself is a highway authority. He needs them badly. In the second place, he approves orders for compulsory purchase by highway authorities. In the third place, he needs them in certain instances where a railway or road development may be held up by unreasonable stubbornness maybe on the part of one person amongst about 300 or 400. In the case of the Minister of War Transport, these powers would not be exercised unreasonably, because if he used them he would probably have to pay more compensation for disturbance, for the quicker the powers are exercised, naturally, the greater will be the disturbance for the owner of the land.

I must, however, inform the House that there are some categories of land which we think ought not to be subjected to this procedure, that is, National Trust land, land in the possession of local authorities, and land of archaeological interest over which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Works presides. In the case of land of that kind, there is a different situation. Where, for instance, a local authority owns the land, at the moment there is no power for another local authority needing that land to take it. That is a foolish situation, because local authorities do not always see eye to eye on those matters. There may be instances in which it is necessary for one local authority to have land which is in the possession of another. Obviously, this is a conflict between two conceptions of public interest, and it would not be an appropriate matter for the Minister alone to arbitrate upon. Therefore, in that case, in the case of trusts where we cannot find land in compensation, in the case of local authorities, in the case of archaeological land, the House is brought into the matter by the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Bill which was carried the other day.

Will the right hon. Gentleman apply that procedure to the Epping Forest land?

Precisely because the quick procedure was first invented to deal with land for temporary houses, and that is a case in point—the land has not been permanently alienated, it is only temporary. It was requisitioned in this case by me.

For temporary houses. Surely, the right hon. Gentleman agrees that 800 families in East Ham, who have already suffered from the ravages of war, are entitled to some shelter. I tried hard to persuade the authorities responsible—the City of London authorities, I believe—to come to an accommodation with me about it. I failed, and, therefore, I found it necessary to requisition the land and I hope the House will support me in that.

May I ask the Minister if it is quite fair to keep on saying that this is the City of London, because that raises a kind of prejudice in this House? The Epping Forest land belongs to the commoners, to the whole of the people of London, in so far as it is their playground.

I mentioned the City of London because the City of London is, I think, entrusted with it.

That is why I mentioned them. I cannot discuss the fringes of Epping Forest with the whole population of London; I had to discuss it with somebody, and I discussed it with the appropriate authority, which is the City of London. I did not raise it with a view to prejudicing anybody. That happens to be the fact. My hon. Friend is correct in that Epping Forest is the playground of the children of London, but what about the children of East Ham?

Certainly, but there are other open spaces in London which are the playgrounds of the people of London and which have had to be taken for temporary houses. There is no reason why Epping Forest alone should be sacrosanct. In any case, it is only the fringe of it, and when the houses are taken down, it will be restored. The point I was trying to make was that, in this particular instance, where there is a clear conflict between two conceptions of public interest, this quick machinery will not be used.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House about this? He has invented a new technique for bypassing, to the disadvantage of all those people who use Epping Forest, the provisions which this House laid down in the Act of 1945.

What I have done in the case of Epping Forest in this instance—it seems to me to be looming far too large—is to requisition a small piece of land on the fringe of it, for a short period, for the purpose of providing houses for people because no other site was available in East Ham. We tried hard to find one, and I ask the House what could I do? On the one hand, there were 800 families bombed out, with no sort of accommodation; on the other hand, the claims of the people of London to Epping Forest. If the people of London had to arbitrate, we know what they would say.

As this raises a matter of principle, could the Minister make it quite clear? It is possible for him to requisition land, apparently in order to avoid this procedure. Is there any limit to the period of time for which requisitioning can take place? Can he requisition for 5, 10 or 15 years?

That is a different power entirely. I want to assure the House that I am as anxious to preserve and protect public amenities as anybody in the House. I think my history in this House has gone to show that, for I have been responsible, on many occasions, for getting Clauses into Acts protecting the public interest in this matter. I regretted very much the necessity to take this fringe of Epping Forest, and I can assure hon. Members that we shall take special care to see that the housing needs of that area are properly attended to, in order to get these houses down as quickly as possible.

I am much obliged tome right hon. Gentleman for saying that. May I make it clear, in the interests of the Corporation of the City of London, that they acceded to a request from the East Ham Corporation in the first instance to put up temporary hutments, which was all that they asked for; what they are anxious about is more permanent ones.

There is only a difference of a few years, and temporary houses are more agreeable than hutments. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the desecration of Epping Forest will cease, as soon as we can possibly manage it.

I only wanted to say that there are circumstances where there is this clear conflict between one set of public interests and another, and it is not proposed that the Minister should exercise these powers in those cases but that Parliament should be brought in as the main arbiter.

I have attempted to describe in general terms, what are the powers in the Bill. We need the Measure badly. I hope the-House will let us have it as soon as possible. I know that hon. Members opposite may consider this is very harsh treatment in some instances, but it was their leader who, quite recently, described housing as a war operation. There would have been no resistance at all to-powers of this sort during the war, and the housing problem and the economic reconstruction of this country present so-many complications that we cannot permit claims to the private ownership of land to obstruct the carrying out of the public programme. Therefore, I hope the House will give us the Second Reading of this Bill.

4.18 p m.

The right hon. Gentleman has given us, as he always does, a very forceful and eloquent speech, and in common with many hon. Members of this House I have developed, through many years of sitting here with him, the ability to combine at once the pleasure of hearing him and total disagreement with the argument which he advances. I think one remark with which he introduced this Bill will command general assent, and that is that in all parts of the House there is a genuine desire for such co-operation as is possible, to solve the present lamentable shortage of housing accommodation for the people. Hon. Members in all parts of the House will be very eager indeed to contribute towards that great work.

My main objection to the argument advanced by the right hon. Gentleman is that he failed entirely to show how this Bill, if it is passed, will add one house to the total being built this year. He spoke of a great many subjects—of factories a great deal—which will have to be examined, but the broad fact of the situation is that of all the elements which go to make a housing programme, namely, the supply of land, of labour, of materials, of organisation and drive—all these things are necessary in a housing programme—the only one of these elements that is in abundant supply is the land. The remainder are all short. When the right hon. Gentleman asks for our co-operation in the housing problem, I can promise him that if he will direct the attention of the House to the real bottlenecks in housing—it is not land that is holding us up, as I propose to show in a moment—and if he has difficulties in the labour supply, materials and so on and will explain them to the House, he may be sure of our collaboration in trying to get them removed.

The right hon. Gentleman prefaced his speech with an historical account of the various forms of legislation which, in the past, have authorised the compulsory acquisition of land. He dwelt a long time on the ancient Provisional Order procedure, and upon the Public Works Facilities Act, 1930. He rather reminded me, when he was describing the tardy progress which might be made under those ancient Acts, of a man trying to sell a very ordinary bicycle, and commending it is the would-be purchaser by contrasting it with the boneshaker, the "penny-farthing" and the velocipede, because he did not refer to the powers local authorities have at present. The Memorandum to his own Bill, refers to the legal code regarding the acquisition of land under the Local Government Act, 1933.

The Explanatory Memorandum shows that the effect of the First Schedule is, roughly, to re-enact the procedure found in the Local Government Act, 1933. Since then, there has been the Housing Act of 1936, with its own procedure, which is saved by this Bill, and only just over a year ago, the Town and Country Planning Act of 1944 which has its own provisions which are also saved by this Bill. We are not, in this business, so far back in the remote past as the right hon. Gentleman would have us believe. If Clause 1 is enacted, local authorities will be armed with the powers of the Local Government Act, 1933, the third part of the Housing Act, 1936, and the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944. Over the main part of the area of legislation there is no question of the obsolete methods of Provisional Order and so on.

There is no objection, in principle, to the powers which the right hon. Gentleman is seeking in Clause 1 of the Bill and in the relevant Schedule. I say that, of course, with due warning to the right hon. Gentleman that we shall try in Committee, if there are small points which need amending, to suggest them to him, but, to the principle of codifying existing legislation, we do not take any particular objection. There is, no doubt, some advantage in providing one unifying procedure for the acquisition of land. That is not in question; it is a meritorious thing to do, and, if Clause 1 is enacted, the code which will emerge will be, substantially, that which is already laid down in the Local Government Act, 1933, Part III of the Housing Act, 1936, and the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944. It might be an advantage to do what the right hon. Gentleman is proposing, and to provide in Clause 1 of the Bill that land acquired for the purposes of the Public Libraries Act, 1919, or the Mental Deficiency and Lunacy (Scotland) Act, 1913, should be acquired by the same procedure as land for housing. Whether this advantage is worth the long and obscure Fourth Schedule attached to the Bill is another question. A Schedule like this, which refers to 46 Acts of Parliament and amends and alters them, is a formidable document to throw at the House, and whether, in the present state of business, we are justified in spending so much time on the mere work of codification and consolidation, I very much doubt. We might have deferred this useful, but not urgent, labour to some time when we were not confronted with such important and contentious business. It appears to hon. Members on this side of the House a little strange that we are asked to make this codification at a time when we cannot have a third day for the Second Reading of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill, and cannot spare time to have the Committee stage of that Bill on the Floor of the House.

There are one or two Amendments we would like to suggest, particularly in regard to statutory authorities, which I do not think are very adequately protected here. But, taking the broad view which one is bound to take on a Second Reading occasion, we shall be prepared to do our best to help the right hon. Gentleman in his work on Clause 1. There is one aspect of the existing code to which I would draw the attention of the House, and that is that it is democratic in its essence. It possesses the feature that before a man's land is taken, or his tenancy disturbed—and he may be a small man or a big man—he shall have a right to be heard. Democracy consists not only in the rule of the majority. It consists also in the right of the minority to be heard. No one has asserted that right more vigorously and forcefully in the past than the Minister of Health. I have frequently had the pleasure of hearing him, when he was almost in a minority of one, and, although I did not agree with his views, I would do my best to protect his rights to speak, because it is always possible to learn from a minority, even from the right hon. Gentleman.

I have always looked forward to hearing the right hon. Gentleman with that pleasure which one has in listening to a virtuoso, and his speech today was a delightful performance, although there was not a house visible in it.

It is very important that we should preserve in all these proceedings, the right of the objector to be heard. Any attempt to do away with that right, although it appears attractive at the moment to the power which is opposing it, is bound in this democratic country, in the long run to create friction, a sense of injustice and more delay, which it should be the object of a statesman to avoid. In Clause 1 the procedure is democratic. Provision is made, if a man objects, for having a public inquiry and a hearing before action is taken—a hearing for both sides. But Clause 2 and the Schedules which appertain to it, represent a departure from the democratic procedure laid down in Clause 1. There we pass at one step from the democratic to the bureaucratic, because there is no adequate opportunity for the ordinary man who is affected, to state his case in the open and to be heard.

Even if there were advantages, which I very much doubt, from the point of view of the efficiency of this procedure, I should be very slow to advise the House that it was good statesmanship in this country to purchase a delusive efficiency, at the risk of invading what are the rights of the subject, rich or poor. I propose to show there is really no justification for that in peacetime. The right hon. Gentleman prays in aid of this proposal under Clause 2, the Housing (Temporary Accommodation) Act of 1944. He says that is, roughly, the procedure which he is seeking to re-enact. Of course, that was a temporary Act passed for a certain limited purpose which I shall describe, and I do feel the strongest objection to re-enacting a form of legislation, which was conceived during the war to meet a wartime emergency, as a permanent part of our legal system in times of peace. If I may make the position clear on procedure as envisaged in this Bill, let me contrast the two forms of procedure laid down, first, in Clause 1, and secondly, in Clause 2. The House will then see, I think, to what they are being asked to agree.

Under Clause 1, the authority must give due notice of its intention by publishing an advertisement in the local papers. It must, in general, serve notices on those whose ownership, or tenancy, of the premises is affected and, if objections are made and not withdrawn then the owner, lessee, or occupier can have an inquiry or a hearing. That is the method of procedure. Clause 2 is very different. Here is the bureaucratic method at work. The procedure, as I understand it, is as follows: The acquiring authority must, first, serve notices on those who are affected, giving them 14 days in which to make representations to the confirming Minister—14 days to make one's representation—and these objections do not carry with them any rights to an inquiry or any of the democratic privileges to which I have alluded. There is no provision for debate, or discussion, or for solving the issue that may be involved by our customary method of talking it over. The objections have only got to be considered by the right hon. Gentleman or by his Department. There is nothing to tell the public who are affected, how deep, how detailed, how sympathetic, that consideration may or may not be. This consideration may be the most perfunctory flicking over of papers by a harassed civil servant, in the Department of the right hon. Gentleman, but, for the purpose of this Bill, that is enough. Thereafter, the bureaucratic machine moves with an irresistible force against the subject, who is given no further chance to make his voice heard. The Minister then sends a written authorisation to the acquiring authority—not to the person whose premises are affected. At any time thereafter within three months the acquiring authority may enter the premises. The man can be most ruthlessly turned out of his home, his farm, or his factory, and he has no redress. It is true he is given some monetary compensation, but if the House considers the human problem here involved, they will see there are some things that money cannot buy and that monetary compensation cannot in fact compensate.

If you take a man's dwelling house—which comes under this procedure—you do not only take from him so much in value which you can pay back. You take the roof from over his head and from over the heads of his wife and children. If you take a man's farm, or factory, or market garden you are not only taking money's worth; you are taking the base of his operations, the base of his conduct of life. That is why I say it is essential before that is done we should give the man a right to be heard. There is about this, and it will appear so to many people who are affected, a sort of hole and corner procedure. I hope the right hon. Gentleman on reconsidering this matter will find it possible to dispense with Clause 2. It is true, as the right hon. Gentleman reminded us, that before he sets this Juggernaut car in motion he has to be satisfied upon two subjects, and those two matters are described in Clause 2, paragraph 1. He has to be satisfied:

I think it is a very strange thing that the right hon. Gentleman should be able to set this extremely harsh and, I think, unjust machinery in motion before he is satisfied that quick entry is necessary, before he is satisfied that not only quick purchase but quick entry is necessary.

It does not follow. This is exactly the point I am making. I am glad the right hon. Gentleman has appreciated it. It strikes me as very peculiar that the right hon. Gentleman should be empowered to authorise rapid entry and dispossession without being satisfied that such rapid entry and dispossession are necessary in the public interest. This is a point, of course, which we shall further explore in Committee, but I think it is one of such importance that it ought to be mentioned here.

Surely this is the point. "Entry" is described elsewhere in the Clause. This is the question of purchase. One does not urgently purchase something which one is not going to use, and the use of the land is dealt with elsewhere.

I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has yet got my point. As I understood his argument to us, he said he wants these extreme powers because he needs to enter on the land. That is the point. I say he ought to be satisfied before launching these powers that it is necessary in the public interest to enter upon the land without delay. I do not think it sufficient he should merely satisfy himself it is urgently necessary to purchase. I hope I have made that clear. If there is nothing in the point, perhaps we can have it described later, but I do think there is something in it, and we ought to draw attention to it now, so that there will be ample opportunity for the right hon. Gentleman and his Department to consider the point. If there is nothing in it, well and good, but if there is something in it, it is my duty to warn him now, so that the matter can be further looked into. If the draft-ting in the Bill does not express his intention exactly, then this is an opportunity for him to have it amended.

The right hon. Gentleman asks for our co-operation in housing. There is nothing in the Bill to suggest that this peremptory method of proceeding is confined to land for housing purposes. He went on to elaborate other purposes for which it is equally necessary, but we have to approach this matter on the footing that it is not related solely to the housing shortage. When we are considering the scope and range of this Measure, we ought to remember that we cannot salve our consciences by allowing some harsh and unjust transactions to be legalised on the ground that there are sorrow and difficulty through the lack of housing accommodation, because the range and scope of the Measure far exceed that limited subject. We may return to that matter later on, in Committee. I think it would be desirable to consider whether, in view of the big battalions ranged against us and the possibility of the Bill going forward with Clause 2 still in it, we should not try our best to secure some limitation in relation to the urgent necessity of housing.

I return for a moment to the question of the Housing (Temporary Accommodation) Bill, on which this Measure is founded. I reject as entirely untenable the argument that, because that Act was passed in 1944, it justifies the right hon. Gentleman for the present. The circumstances, the purposes and the duration of the two proposals are entirely different. The provision of sites for temporary houses is a problem by itself. In the first place, the houses are to last for a limited period, and the land can then be restored to its original use. The right hon. Gentleman himself gave us an assurance which I was very glad to hear today about Epping Forest. The right hon. Gentleman says that it is the idea to have temporary houses that will be pulled down and the land restored to its original use. When we are getting sites for temporary houses, we are not confronted with any long-range planning problem, and we can get to work, even if we do it ill, when the temporary houses are removed. But, when it comes to building permanent houses, we are making a permanent alteration in the use to which the land is put, and that is a planning operation of great importance.

Has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten that, before any of this can start, the Minister of Town and Country Planning has to approve the proposals?

No, I welcome that, but the point I am making is that we cannot justify a procedure which was good enough when there was no planning involved for a situation in permanent housing where planning is very important, and that there ought to be time for the consultation between the two Departments which is abundantly necessary. We are all agreed, on this housing matter, that permanent houses are better than temporary ones, and one of the problems in taking sites for temporary houses is to see that we do not clutter up sites which may be available for permanent houses, because such a deviation might delay the ultimate final solution of the whole problem. I say, in general, that the right hon. Gentleman is dealing with permanent houses and that there is ample time for the application of the procedure under Clause 1 of this Bill.

I would point out that the Act of 1944 was passed when the war was still raging and when there was a fear that the temporary houses would have to form a regrettably much higher proportion of our total housing than would be the case in peace, and when it was feared that they might come in such numbers that there would not be enough land for them. Power was taken for one year, and that Act was passed. But all this has changed now. The war has been over for seven months, and there is no foreign strife that need detract us from our own domestic bickerings. The right hon. Gentleman has all the resources of the nation at his command for housing, if only the Government will liberate them and permit them to be used, at a time when the emphasis is on permanent houses and there is plenty of time for the democratic, as distinct from the bureaucratic, procedure of acquisition. The Act of 1944 was strictly limited to one year, but it is proposed to make this proposal for expediting the procedure last for five years, and, thereafter, be renewed from year to year by means of an Order in Council. The fear against which the Act of 1944 was directed was, that houses might fall upon us at a speed which might make the supply of land not enough. Now, there is no such fear. The contrary is the case, and, of all the elements which are wanting for a solution of this housing problem, the land is, I think, the only one that is up to schedule

Let me remind the House of what was said by Mr. Tom Johnston, a Member of the Labour Party, liked and respected in all parts of this House, and whose absence from which we all deplore today, who, speaking on this very subject in 1945, said: fortune. What did he tell us himself? I saw that he had a Press conference on 17th of this month, and he said that it had been alleged that planning was delaying the urgent housing programme. The right hon. Gentleman said there was no truth in the charge, and that this was demonstrated by the following figures: Interruption .]—Oh, yes, that is my point, and we have yet to hear a single example cited from any one local authority which could not be overcome by Clause 1 of this Bill. If these local authorities have not carried out their powers, why have they not been able to do so? If the right hon. Gentleman will provide us with one actual concrete example of a shortage of land which necessitates or justifies the proposals under Clause 2 of the Bill, we on this side of the House will be prepared to listen to him.

These are the main points with which I wish to trouble the House on this question. As I have already said, if I felt that this Bill would assist in the problem of housing, I would hesitate to oppose it or to criticise it, but the right hon. Gentleman has quite failed to convince me that it will touch the housing problem. The trouble lies not in the land, but elsewhere, and I do not think that the public interest is served by the right hon. Gentleman coming before us, and, therefore, before the public, with a Bill, the message of which is, that the trouble about the housing situation is the shortage of land. That is not the cause, and it tends to divert public attention from what is really wrong with the housing problem in this country, because the Bill does not state a true cause, but a wrong cause. If the right hon. Gentleman would show us a clear example where he is really being held up for lack of land, we would perhaps consider what is to be done about it. But there is no speech that has been made yet which does this, and, of course, we are at an early stage in the discussion on the Bill, but I repeat that the Debate up to the present has not produced a single concrete example justifying the harsh provisions contained in the Bill.

The fact is that of all the factors in this housing problem to which the right hon. Gentleman has directed our attention, and for which he seeks our co-operation, as well as our criticism if we think he is wrong, of all the elements in this problem, the one that is not lacking is the land. I do not, therefore, feel disposed to advise my friends to vote for the Second Reading of the Bill. The figures which have been quoted this afternoon clearly show that the problem, if there is one at all, is a local one, and it is for this reason that I do not feel that I can advise my friends to vote for a Bill which directs the attention of the House and of the country to the wrong issues in connection with this problem.

4.55 p.m.

If the Minister of Health did not produce one example, as the right hon. Gentleman above the gangway said, of houses not being built because sites were not available owing to faults in procedure, he did, at any rate, produce a terrifying list of factories and the like which were not being built in the depressed areas at the present moment because of delay in acquiring the land, and it is for this reason that I have no hesitation in welcoming the Bill. It is a good Bill because it does simplify and speed up the procedure in connection with this land problem. Therefore, there is very little from our point of view that we have to say about it. There may be some minor points on Committee stage, but there is little to do now except to bless the Bill. It is a procedure Bill, and it does not touch what we regard as the real basic problem underlying the land question, but that will be dealt with by the Minister of Town and Country Planning in the Bill that he intends to bring before us.

In this Bill we are dealing with the question of housing the population, with the question of the distribution of industry, and the building of factories in depressed areas, but very few people realise that there is another factor which is going to have a tremendous effect upon the re-planning of this country, and is going to make the problem a much vaster one than most of us contemplated. That is the consideration of the problem of re-planning in the strategic context. The effect of the bombing and the rockets made it clear to all of us in London that, if this country is to be properly replanned from the strategic point of view, there will have to be a vast dispersal of the population. There are also the results of atomic bombing to be taken into account in this question of the redistribution of our industries and our population, because this makes it an even more urgent necessity. If we do not face up to it now, we shall face catastrophe. I know I am not quite in Order in talking about this problem, but I have raised it because I think that the present Bill leads up to it.

The Government and the local authorities, in other words the community, have to keep on acquiring more and more land in this country. If this is not done as this acquisition proceeds, prices of land remaining in private ownership will increase until the situation arises in which the community cannot afford the cost of purchase. If this replanning, and the dispersal of the population, which is so urgently necessary from the strategic point of view, is to be at all possible, then the community should acquire for their own purposes the whole of the country's land. I am glad that the Minister of Town and Country Planning is here, as my Friends and I have always felt that the recommendations contained in the Uthwatt Report are not enough. I wish to say to him and to the other right hon. Gentlemen on the Government Front Bench that, if we are to cope with this enormous and pressing problem, then the Government ought to see to it that the whole of the land of this country is brought under the owner- ship of the community, once and for all, so that this particular problem which confronts us at the present time can be thoroughly eliminated from the business of this House.

4.59 p.m.

I rise to say that I give my very warm support to this Bill. It is urgently necessary for it to be put into effect, and this is known by anyone who has had experience as a member of a local authority, whether it be in the provision of houses, schools, clinics, hospitals, or even for road improvement. They must be acquainted with the obstables and hindrances that are placed in the way of these authorities in the carrying out of their public duties. What sometimes amazes us is that, when it is learned that a public authority wishes to acquire a piece of land, no matter what may have been the use to which the land was put in the past, by a seeming miracle overnight it becomes extremely valuable. The owners take advantage of the needs of the public and try to exploit the public necessity by asking exorbitant prices, which mean protracted negotiations and long, vexatious delays.

The right hon. Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison) rather complained about the urgency with which this thing is to be tackled. I will supply him, from my own experience, with an example of what happened in my own county of Gloucestershire, part of which he represents. His wife happens to be a member of the Gloucestershire War Agricultural Executive Committee. The largest rural district council in my constituency was allocated four of the houses for agricultural workers under the notorious Ernest Brown scheme. There was an abundant supply of land, but I have it on the authority of the clerk of the council that it was absolutely impossible for that district council to acquire by agreement even half an acre of land on which to build those cottages. It was necessary for them to threaten to use the power of compulsory purchase. They asked one farmer who owned 96 acres of land in the district whether he would allow them to purchase half an acre, but he flatly refused, and said that he would not enter into any negotiations for the acquisition of half an acre and that they must buy the whole farm.

I am glad that the powers contained in the Bill do not relate merely to the acquisition of land for houses. Land is, and will be, most urgently required for sites for the new schools that will have to be built if last year's Education Act is to be properly implemented. In my own consituency, the local education authority wished to build a school for the children living at an estate that had been recently developed. After a good deal of careful consideration, they decided upon a site. Then they approached the owner of the site, who happened to be the county councillor for the district—not a Labour but a Tory county councillor—and he asked a price that represented about three times the value of the land. The result was that the education authority said, "We will not be fleeced, we will go to arbitration." That meant delay, and before the proceedings had hardly started, the war broke out, the result being that a large number of the children of my constituents in the district have been deprived of the convenience of attending a school close to their homes. When eventually the school is erected, it will cost at least three times as much money as it would have cost if powers such as are contained in this Bill had been available to the education authority.

Is the hon. Gentleman quite right in saying that? Surely, in the matter of building schools before the war, the education authority would have found it very difficult to prove the urgency, which is an essential element before the powers under this Bill can come into effect.

If the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing) had small children and they had to walk a very long distance to school, I think he would agree that it was an urgent matter to provide them with an up-to-date school somewhere near their homes. It is a very urgent matter. If the hon. Gentleman will come and ask my constituents about it, he will very soon receive an answer whether it is urgent or not that the school should be provided.

I do not want to misinterpret what the hon. Member said. Of course, there were matters of very great importance in the provision of schools. My point is that before the war—and not as a result of war damage or anything of that sort—it must have been an amazingly bad local authority which was incapable of foreseeing the demands that would be made upon it as regards school buildings. It is the element of urgency in this Bill that we are considering. It is the element of urgency which is given as the reason for the introduction of this Measure.

The urgency lies in this, that if the powers under this Bill had been in operation when the education authority of which I have spoken wanted to acquire the land, they could have entered upon the land and I am informed that the school would have been erected before the war broke out.

The hon. Member must be allowed to continue his speech without interruption.

I have received this week a letter from the county education secretary concerning the acquisition of school sites. It reads: of this question, let them come to the City of Bristol. My hon. Friend the Member for South Bristol (Mr. Wilkins) could give the House the information that there are 18,000 persons on the waiting list and that that number is increasing by leaps and bounds every week. From my own constituency, I am receiving most piteous letters complaining of the absolute impossibility of people getting a place in which to live. Is it not urgent that a man who has been fighting for his country in foreign fields, when he comes home to his wife and children, should have somewhere to live? I suggest that this question is as urgent as any question that arose during the war.

I do not want to take up the time of the House unnecessarily, but my experience—and it is a fairly long one—of local government work, proves to me that this is an overdue Measure, and that a lot of the evils, especially with regard to the shortage of houses, from which we have suffered for so long, would have been solved years ago if powers of this character had been on the Statute Book. I sincerely hope that the passage of this Bill through the House will be speedy, that the powers contained in it will be operated with vigour and determination, and that the hindrances which have hitherto prevented local authorities from carrying out their schemes for houses, schools and other amenities will soon vanish.

Did I understand the hon. Gentleman to maintain that the present shortage of houses in Bristol is due, primarily, to the lack of housing sites?

I would not suggest that, although, in some cases, there have been difficulties. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cirencester made a great deal of play about the number of sites now in the possession of local authorities. The Bill will not operate in cases of that sort. The powers under the Bill will enable local authorities to obtain land where hitherto they have been unable to do so. It is like the policemen; they are not required to' look after law-abiding people.

5.12 p.m.

Rarely have I known a confessed member of a local authority so misunderstand the interpretation of a Bill. From start to finish he was acting under a misapprehension. This Bill is a procedure for acquiring land compulsorily. That is agreed. But the hon. Gentleman's argument was based on the fact that the trouble which he apparently found in his area over acquisition was now holding up certain building operations. He missed the whole point of the Bill, which is that when a local authority is going to build a certain number of schools, not unnaturally, if it is a good authority—and I would not say the hon. Gentleman's local authority was not a good one—it has a definite and timed plan for the erection of those schools. Presumably, the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that all these schools are going to be built within the next five years—certainly none is going to be built within the next year. He was suggesting that the procedure under Clause 2 of the Bill would be necessary for the acquisition of land for such schools. Nothing of the sort. As my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing) was trying to point out—unfortunately, without success—it is the urgency of the purchase which would bring Clause 2 into operation.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he understands the operation of the Education Act, which will make it necessary probably within the next five years to have a large number of schools built under development plans of good authorities like Bristol? Under Clause 1 it will be necessary to take exactly the steps outlined therein.

That does not alter the argument one inch. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison) was not objecting to Clause 1. Although I do not approve of it in detail, the general outline of Clause 1 provides for exactly the same procedure that a local authority could have proceeded upon before the war. What the hon. Gentleman was arguing was that Clause 1 was no use, and that his local authority would have to use Clause 2 on every occasion.

I have already referred to, and verified, the great difficulty we have of getting land even for small cottages. Without these powers, we are going to experience greater difficulty in getting larger sites for schools.

The hon. Gentleman is muddling up Clause 1 with Clause 2. I am afraid, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I shall overstep my time if I try to instruct the hon. Gentleman further, but I must say I cannot follow the problem to which he drew attention. It has some curious flavour about it which I do not quite understand. In my area, which happens to be that of a very efficient Tory authority, the local authority comes along to an owner and tells him that in two years' time it will want a particular site and asks whether it can have it. I have yet to hear of any instance where the local authority has not settled the matter of sites for the next two years. I feel there must be something rotten in the state of Thornbury.

I am afraid that is an old-fashioned prejudice which has brought the Labour Party to its present slightly inflated size in this House. It is a theory in which they have been trying to instruct the country for many years with, I agree, some Parliamentary success, but there is really not a great deal in it. Before I go on, I would like to take up the point raised by the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Horabin). It is with great surprise and some degree of perturbation that we now hear that the whole of the Liberal Party is committed to the policy of land nationalisation. That may be the policy of the Party, but I think the whole country should be made aware that it is its policy. Unfortunately it is almost impossible to find out on which leg the Liberal Party is standing.

May I point out that in the last election I stated that I stood for nationalisation as did the Leader of the Liberal Party? Whether that commits the whole of the Liberal Party, I am not prepared to say. The Liberal Party allows of a wide variety of views.

On a point of Order. I would like to know what land nationalisation has to do with this Bill.

I will not pursue the point. I only mentioned it because the hon. Gentleman raised it, but in my opinion it brings out the fact that there must be some sinister motive behind this Bill. We all know the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health has great cunning, and I have no doubt the House is well aware of his wish to nationalise the land. But I believe the administrative difficulties which some of his colleagues have been pointing out to him in the past have made it impossible for him to proceed any further, so that he decides that the Clause 2 procedure under this Bill will give him all the results of nationalisation without any of the bother and practical difficulties of that operation. For that reason I think my hon. Friends on this side of the House should be made aware of what is contemplated when discussing this Measure.

My next point is this. The Minister of Health said he wanted to produce Clause 1 in order to codify procedure. First, I would question whether the uniformity of the various acquisition procedures is, in fact, desirable. I am a practical, professional manager of land, and, as such, I have had to deal with all these various provisions of acquisition, one after the other, according to whatever particular acquisition was on hand. At the present time, if one wishes to deal with the question of the acquisition of land for smallholdings, one can take out the Smallholdings Act and one will find the whole of the law on that particular subject. If one wishes to discover what is happening with regard to acquiring land for schools one takes out the Education Act, and there one finds the whole of the procedure. But when this Bill becomes law, not only will the unfortunate land agents have to take out this Bill and see where it fits in with the main Act which they are considering, but they will also have to take out the relevant Education Act for dealing with schools or the Act dealing with allotments, or whatever it may be. Therefore, there will arise this unfortunate position whereby the legal profession will have a great deal more work, because the more lay-minded among us will not be able to cope with the vast addition of legislative research which will be necessary in land acquisition.

I believe the right hon. Gentleman has adopted the wrong procedure in order to deal with this problem. I think it would be much simpler to try to amend each of the Acts which he wishes to amend. But supposing it is desirable that there should be one procedure, in point of fact this Bill does not unify procedure. There are the Town and Country Planning Act procedures, and the Housing Act, 1936, Part III, procedures, and both have the same purpose, but different methods of getting there. I very much doubt whether anybody could argue that the slum clearance provisions of the Housing Act, and the provisions for the redevelopment of an area under the Town and Country Planning Act, are really very different in their objectives. I think a case can be made out for amalgamations, but I would like to ask the Minister of Town and Country Planning: When is a slum not a slum, and when is a blighted area not a blighted area? I think the answer must be, in the first case when it is a blighted area, and in the second case when it is a slum. But I cannot see why we should have to consider all these different procedures, when the Minister comes to the House and tells us that the purpose of this Bill is to unify procedure.

There are one or two details I want to discuss, on the question of the inquiry. My right hon. Friend has already mentioned the question of the local inquiry. I want to take that point a step further. It seems to me, reading the provisions in this Bill, that the Minister of Health is setting out to do away with the public local inquiry. There is no doubt of that, because in the Fourth Schedule, in the case of one Act—I do not remember which—he actually takes out the word "public" from the phrase "public local inquiry." I would like to know whether the Minister objects to a public local inquiry. It may well be that he does. On the other hand, it may well be that he does not want the inquiry restricted to one particular procedure. At any rate, I hope he realises there are many definite uses for public local inquiries. As my right hon. Friend has explained, they form an essential part of our democratic procedure. My next point deals with notices. Under the Clause 1 procedure, a very small and insignificant provision is put into the First Schedule, Part I, to the effect that notices need not be served if the Minister says that they need not be. Incidentally, there is a curious piece of Parliamentary drafting here, in that before a local authority can submit a scheme for compulsory purchase, the notices must be served. Therefore, I do not quite see how this particular provision applies, but in fact it does apply, and I would like to know from the Minister whether he does or does not believe in notices being served on owners and occupiers. This is only a Committee point, but there is a second departure from the present rules on the service of notices in Clause 2 which states that notices may be served upon owners or occupiers under an address "the owner and occupier." I will not pursue that point at the moment.

I want to say a word about the Small Holdings Act, 1908, and the subsequent legislation. It may be that the public local inquiry will be done away with under the provisions of the Bill which we are discussing. Of all the provisions for the acquisition of land by public or local authorities, the Small Holdings Act is one which, on almost every occasion, needs a public local inquiry. It is not solely the interest of the local authority and the owner of the land whether or not smallholdings should be provided. We have a certain number of well farmed smallholdings in Yorkshire, but it is well known, not only in the farming world but also, I think, at the Ministry of Agriculture, that unless one is on first class land there is nothing more like slavery than running a smallholding. I do not want to see under the cover of this Bill a Socialist administration forcing into smallholdings large numbers of people, many of them ex-Servicemen perhaps, who do not know the hardships and the difficulties of running a small farm on land which is only medium or average.

I have also some general criticisms to make on this Bill from the agricultural point of view. In the first place, a great deal of land will be required for town and country planning. The other day the Minister of Town and Country Planning made a fairly wide pronouncement on the subject of building satellite towns. The estimate of the acreage required is something like half a million. These satellite towns will include extra railways and roads, all taking up more and more land. I want it to be clearly understood that I am not objecting to satellite towns. In fact, I think they will do the agricultural community a great deal of good. They will mean trade and so on. What I would stress is that the closest scrutiny must be given to the provision of land for those towns. The rapid acquisition procedure by which the land for those towns may be acquired under this Bill, would make it almost certain that great and everlasting mistakes would be made. I feel that in this case, where a satellite town is going to be built, Clause 2 should never be invoked. In a moment or two I will give the reasons why I think that is so—the Minister will probably guess them. What I feel is that the safeguards in this Bill are not sufficient to prevent the use of the best land in the area, when a small movement one Way or the other, which ought to have been seen at the outset, would place the town upon the worst agricultural land in the district. I will not go on any further into Clause 1 but pass very briefly to Clause 2.

Under Clause 2, the Government admit there are delays in administration. They admit there is a difficulty, which I maintain is due to their own lack of faith in their own efficiency, and lack of faith in town and country planning. I would call the attention of the Minister to a case which affects my part of the world. No doubt he will have heard of an agitation in the West Riding of Yorkshire. There the great City of Leeds is attempting to spread its tentacles into the rural areas of the West Riding of Yorkshire.

You, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, will be aware that this project is by no means popular in the rural areas. You will also be aware that that project includes taking into the City of Leeds an area which is probably more than half of the whole of a rural district council. The point I want to make is this. Whereas I have no doubt that if the present set-up of the county council remains the same there will be all the necessary publicity, all the necessary inquiries and so on and so forth, if there were a change of local government on the West Riding county council we should have a state of affairs whereby perhaps a Socialist administration might be on that council. With a Socialist Government in Parliament and with the disciplining of the planning committee of that authority—which the Socialist Party has ordered quite recently—Clause 2 procedure might be used for the acquisition of that land. The first thing that the rural district councils would be aware of would be an advertisement in the paper, after which they would have 12 days' notice in which to make their objections. I might perhaps get an assurance from the Minister that that sort of case will be watched, and that there will be no use of Clause 2 of this Bill for any of those or similar purposes. This problem is not a question of lack of land at all.

Could the hon. Gentleman make this clear? Is he referring to the acquisition of land belonging to one local authority by another?

Yes. I am referring to the acquisition of land outside the City of Leeds boundary, which the City of Leeds has proposed should be included within the city boundary. This problem of housing has nothing to do with lack of land or potential lack of land. It is in fact due to the inability of Government Departments to make up their minds. I will give an example of that to the House, one on which I want a decision within the next few days. There is a rural district council outside York called Flaxton. That district council made all the necessary plans, provided and acquired the necessary land, and obtained, of course, the necessary planning approval for a site on which to build 40 houses. In July of last year the Ministry of Civil Aviation came along and said, "Stop any plans for building upon this site because we think it is possible it may be required for the funnel to a civil aerodrome which happens to be near the site." That was July. My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) has on many occasions tried to get some sort of decision upon this point, but nothing has happened. Now, in January, 1946, after six months of Socialist administration, still no decision has been taken as to whether that land may or may not be built on. Unless a decision is come to fairly soon, how can that local authority possibly make a success of its building plans? It does not even know whether it ought not to start preparing plans and purchasing an alternative site.

To my mind, the real problem is not houses, it is hatreds; hatreds of the right hon. Gentlemen opposite for certain individuals and classes, which they have been using as political ladders for a very long time. Really, I feel this Bill neither codifies the law in this respect nor does it work in the interests of good planning. I am perfectly prepared to listen to, and to help in, a really well-thought out scheme which could not be put into operation and could not be presented to the House now, for the codifying of the law. Maybe in two or three years' time, when we have got over the main problems of blitz and blight under the Town and Country Planning Act, and the redevelopment of slums and slum clearance areas in other cities, when we have got over the shortages of labour and materials to a large extent, then would be a reasonable and sensible time to come to the House with a Bill which would unify into one procedure all acquisitions of land. I would be prepared to listen to—and maybe in general principle, to approve—that course. But I am not prepared to accept—and indeed I shall oppose in the Division Lobby—the attempt to put this Bill over with the strings attached to it which are neither necessary nor complete, nor are they in the best interests of the country.

5.39 p.m.

The hon. Member who has just sat down almost brought me to the verge of tears on behalf of the land agents, until I remembered the object of this Bill. The object of this Bill is to provide houses for those for whom our tears are more due. I am not this evening going to enter into a competition whether my local authority is a good authority or not. I come from a district which is one of the most blitzed areas in this country, South-East London. Reference has been made to the 18,000 applicants in the City of Bristol. In my own borough, the Metropolitan Borough of Woolwich, there was a register of 103,000 at the last registration. We have no fewer than 12,000 applications for houses. It is the urgency of the housing problem that has induced the Minister to produce this Bill, and because I fervently believe that it will help forward the production of houses, I welcome its introduction, in spite of one or two imperfections which I see in it. I was very much interested in hearing the Minister of Health say: some doctrine to some of the Service Departments, who remind me very much of the description given of Caesar refusing the Crown—"He was very loath to take his fingers off it." That, I think, is true of the Service Departments when they have land which is badly wanted for housing purposes. I would ask my right hon. Friend to speak to the Service Ministers and tell them of the very wholesome doctrine he has preached to the House, and seek their conversion, or the conversion of their Service chiefs.

I observe, as the right hon. Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison) observed, that there are one or two flaws. If the Bill is passed in its present form I apprehend that very grave damage will be done to the statutory authorities of the country—the railways, canals, docks and harbour boards, gas, water and electricity undertakings. Only after long years of struggle did Parliament recognise their position, and in the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, after very long discussion with the then Solicitor-General, their position was safeguarded. In the third part of the First Schedule I find:

One of the tragedies in connection with the production of many of the necessities of the country is the piecemeal nature of the way in which they are tackled. For instance, we all agree that houses are priority No. 1, but some of the amenities that are necessary for houses, water supply, for example, are being dismissed without another thought, it being forgotten that a house is absolutely useless unless it has a decent water supply. The magic words "Water Board" have just been whispered to me. I make no apology for the years of service I have given to the Metropolitan Water Board, nor for bringing the needs of such bodies before this House when a Bill of this kind is introduced. I would say the same about other great public utilities. Furthermore, paragraph 10 ( b ) (i) of the third part of the First Schedule says that a compulsory purchase order shall not be confirmed unless the Minister is satisfied—

I am sure the hon. Member who has just sat down will rejoice at my next remark. I am rather disturbed about the position of allotments under this procedure. The allotment holders of this country have, in two wars, rendered signal service in food production. Indeed, the late right hon. David Lloyd-George once referred to them during the last war as a fourth line of defence of the country. If that was true in the last war, it was true in this. I would be one of the last persons in the world to defend the retention of housing land for allotments, but all too unfortunately the safeguards with regard to permanent allotments are merely illusory. I would ask my right hon. Friend to look into the question of the retention of as much proper allotment land as possible, bearing in mind that the average man in middle life or later is entitled to his recreation just as much as the youth, and allotments make a very fine recreation. I have referred to them at times as a perfect city of refuge from a man's wife's tongue. I am not, of course, speaking personally, but from keen observation.

The hon. Member is not by any chance referring to political women, is he?

I am merely referring to it as a physical weapon. In connection-with one of the Lloyd-George Bills which became an Act there was a doggerel which said:

"Lloydie Georgie bent his bow

Shot at a pigeon and killed a crow."

I would ask my right hon. Friend to look at these things so that the effect of this Bill will not be that, while aiming at the crow, he will kill a pigeon.

5.47 p.m.

I do not intend to make a long contribution to this Debate, but I must say that I feel that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister, who has such an extremely adequate power of debate and discussion, has not really contributed much today towards putting a clear picture of this Bill before the House. After all, we should be in a position to get down to the fundamentals of this question. Time after time, the right hon. Gentleman gave the impression that what was obstructing the acquisition of land, was a limited number of people to whom he referred as landlords—one, two, three or four big landlords. That is not a fair proposition to put before the House. If one considers closely the question of the speedy acquisition of houses which belong to big landlords, one would probably discover that that would be what the big landlord would like most of all. If he owned a large number of houses, and a certain number of them were to be compulsorily acquired, would he not say, "The sooner they are acquired and the sooner I am paid fop them the better"?

The people who will really suffer are the occupiers, the people who will have the roofs taken from over their heads, those are the people who will suffer by the speedy procedure which in some cases is open to abuse and unfairness. Let me put it like this to the Minister of Town and Country Planning and his right hon. colleague. Let us suppose that suits and not houses are 'being compulsorily acquired. If the right hon. Gentleman had a large number of suits in his wardrobe, he would not mind how quickly they were taken away and paid for. But if the suit he was wearing, was being compulsorily acquired, would be not ask for a little longer time?

I suggest, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman who introduced this Bill should really explain the point to the House. He has a very good case for speeding up the compulsory acquisition of property, in the interests of housing and so forth. The right hon. Gentleman the former Minister of Town and Country Planning has informed the House that he sees no objection to Clause 1 procedure, and I must say I see no objection either. It seems a very fair and reasonable one.

There are one or two minor points which, I think, ought to receive attention. As I read the Bill—and no doubt the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—there is no necessity to give notice. Notice may be given of an application, but there is no statutory obligation for the acquiring authority to give notice. I should like to know the arguments for not giving notice. There may be some very good arguments, in which case I am prepared to hear them; but I think that is one point on which an Amendment might usefully be moved at a later stage. Another point is that there is no fixed time far objections to be made. We have not been informed why that is not allowed. It does sem to me that there is bound to be a considerable amount of confusion. I, personally, would like to see some kind of safeguard to secure that there should be 28 days' notice, fixed as a minimum, which, no doubt, would be put into operation on nearly all occasions. At any rate, I do want seriously to put forward the argument that other hon. Members have gracefully conceded, that we all are anxious to codify the procedure on the compulsory purchase of land. We do want to see we are getting as much justice and avoiding as much harshness as possible. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman the late Minister for Town and Country Planning has pointed out that our objection is not to Clause 1 but that we want to see that there is no use of such a harsh and speedy procedure as is introduced under Clause 2 of the Bill. It is really rather ruthless when, as far as I can see—and I have read it rather carefully—all you have to do is to give notice of entry in 14 days' time.

I submit that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has not read the Bill, because provision is made in it for giving 14 days' notice, and then for the right of entry.

The right of entry will carry with it the fact that, once the acquiring authority have gone in, they cannot be moved out. The point I am trying to make is that 14 days will very often lead to hardship. People will not know that the land is being acquired at all. I know it could be said that notice had been served. [ Interruption .]I am not going to give way again. Since the hon. Member thinks this procedure works so smoothly, I can tell him of many instances in which the procedure has been hopelessly bungled. Giving notice means presenting a bucket, some paste and a brush to a number of not very intelligent individuals who plaster the notices in various parts of a particular area. I have an instance in which a man with a brush and with the paste and the bucket did his job very well, but instead of plastering the notices in the street where he had been told to plaster them, did so in another street.

He got the wrong street. The hon. Member may treat this in a light-hearted manner but the people who suddenly saw that their homes and shops were to be lost to them felt no kind of happiness about it. If it had not been pointed out to me, I suppose the procedure would have been allowed to run the full length, and some of the people might even have left.

May I ask whether the people concerned could read? Even though the notices were posted in the wrong place, they would have found by reading them to what properties they referred.

I am sorry to say that those I looked at were most inadequate and the dates were undecipherable. In the case of one of the notices, I took it up with the right hon. Gentleman himself, and I got from the Minister of Health a very nice, courteous reply. I hope I am not offending in any way in reading the reply from the Minister of Health to myself on this point. He says:

I am not making any criticism of the Minister of Health. All I am trying to do is to point out that this speedy procedure lays itself open to abuse, error and hardship. Therefore, I say it should be limited as much as possible to places where it is absolutely essential. I do feel that there is every reason that this very speedy procedure which may cause errors of the kind I have mentioned should be used only where, otherwise, the whole object of the Minister or the local authority would be defeated. We are worried over the speedy procedure being used as the normal procedure in cases where speed is not essential, where the speed of entry is not essential, and I hope that towards the end of the Debate we may hear from whoever is to reply on behalf of the Minister or the Minister of Town and Country Planning that there will be some clarification of the point as to when this speedy procedure is going to be used. We should be able to feel that when it is used it is essential in the national interest and in order to get on to land or into houses speedily. Otherwise the normal Clause 1 procedure should be adopted.

6.1 p.m.

I am very glad to be able to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, because I listened with very great interest to the remarks of the Minister on the introduction of this Bill. This is an instrument for which towns in devastated areas like mine have been Waiting. It is going to help us to rebuild our cities, recondition our areas and rehouse our people much better than any other instrument which we have had. I took the opportunity, as soon as the Bill was published, of immediately sending a copy to some of my legal friends who are interested in local government, and I asked them their opinion as to the effect this Bill would have in helping those of us who are trying to rebuild devastated towns. The reply I got from an entirely unbiased, non-political authority is this:

Having said that about the merits of the Bill, I would like to turn to what was said in objection to the Bill by the right hon. Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison). I listened to his partial condemnation of the Bill with very great interest, because I remembered that he was the person who piloted through this House the Town and Country Planning Act of 1944 with great skill and to the great satisfaction of local authorities. So I listened with very great interest to what the right hon. Gentleman had to say. He said that his main objection to this Bill and particularly to Clause 2 is that it would not add one house to the programme of house building which we have before us.

I want to show, if I possibly can, how the operation of Clause 2 is going to provide houses. I am no lawyer, but the Minister of Town and Country Planning will put me right if I err in this matter. Clause 2 allows the provisions of this Bill to be applied to the procedure under the 1944 Act. If that is so, I want to tell my right hon. Friend—I am sorry that he is not here—what our experience has been in the city of Plymouth in trying to work this Act. After the long procedure of making the inquiries necessary under the Sections of this Act, and after obtaining very complete financial estimates of what it will cost to acquire the land—we have to send this up to the Minister before he will consider giving us a declaratory order, and when we find some of these are running into millions of pounds we want to be very careful—we found that the shortest possible time in which under this Act we could possibly begin rebuilding our city, or begin rebuilding our houses on devastated sites, is somewhere in the region of 12 to 18 months. I am putting it at its best. We cannot wait 18 months. Our people are living on top of each other.

I have heard people talking this afternoon about the very great weight of overcrowding in their areas, and the great numbers of applications for houses. I wish they could come into a district in which, in a small area, 70,000 people out of 212,000 have had to find other accommodation as a result of German bombing. That is the problem we have to face. We cannot wait 18 months. We want to begin now. That is where this Bill will give us an advantage, and that is where Clause 2 will help us in our devastated areas, and, so I say, that should be an example to my right hon. Friend of the usefulness of this Bill.

Naturally, there are one or two things about which I should like to have an assurance from the Minister. I can quite understand Clause 2 being limited to five years. We are prepared to accept that, and to say that an authority which does not do its job in five years ought to be caned, and lose the advantages which this Clause will give. But there is one thing on which I should like to have a very complete assurance from the Minister. If the procedure under this Bill is used in a devastated area for which a declaratory order has been asked for under the Town and Country Planning Act, although this gives us the right to enter on the land and the right to acquire the land, do we get with it provisions for financial aid, which we get under the Town and Country Planning Act? I hope the Minister will make that quite clear to us when he replies, because there is no provision in this Bill for financial assistance to clear the land. That is one point on which I would like to be assured.

The other matter which I should like the Minister to consider is the question of the serving of notices. I think it is quite clear in the Bill that a notice has to be served either on the owner or tenant or both or on a person who is normally in occupation of the site or is known to have lived there. It may be known to my right hon. Friend that under a previous Act the notice may be posted to them or it may be posted on the site. I am a representative of a city who hopes to use this Bill, and which has got an awful lot of sites in its reconstruction area. There are no fewer than 6,000 owners in the land which we have scheduled. I would be glad to know if the Minister would consider under this Bill permitting the posting of notices where there are an awful lot of sites, which are absolutely bare and from which all physical signs of ownership have been removed. I have taken advice about this, and am advised that the posting of a notice on the notice board with proper notification through the local Press, and the publishing of a plan indicating the area, ought to be sufficient. I should like to ask the Minister whether he can do anything in that respect to meet the difficulty of people of whose buildings there is no physical sign.

Finally, there is one other point I should like to raise In the Sixth Schedule to the 1944 Act special provision was made under which authorisation was granted for expediting completion and I should like to ask whether in view of the necessity to get completion expedited authorisation would be given under this Bill as was given under the 1944 Act. I hope I shall receive some favourable reply to these questions because these points are very largely going to determine whether we can successfully and quickly get on to a site to rebuild. May I give one instance? Our city council lost all its public offices. We have none left. We have housed our city officers in houses that ought to be occupied by the people. That increases our problem. At the present time we have a plan to rebuild the entire city but we must erect our administrative buildings in order to organise the rebuilding. What we want to do is to erect on the land which will eventually become the site of the city offices temporary buildings so that we can get our officers housed. That is why we want quick entry, so that there is a need for Clause 2. These temporary buildings for our officers are necessary because the permanent buildings will not be built for about 20 years.

It seems to be a criticism of the Minister, and let us hope that before 20 years the rebuilding will have taken place.

My hon. and gallant Friend has got me wrong as usual, and I apologise for not being clear in my statement. We want to put down these temporary buildings to house the staff on the site upon which the permanent buildings will be erected. We do not propose to build permanent city offices while houses are required for housing the people and if we have got to wait 20 years for such offices we will wait provided we get houses for our people. Because this Bill helps us to do so we welcome it in the bombed and devastated areas and we hope when it goes to the Committee upstairs and Clause 2 is resisted by the people who have always had full control of the land that that resistance will be defeated. The hon. Gentleman who spoke before me said there was a danger of him that not one half of the amount of Clause 2 being abused. I would remind suffering will arise in the application of this Clause as has arisen through the stranglehold of the landlord on land for generations past which landowners he and his friends represent. That menace this Bill breaks down and because of that we welcome it and wish the Minister the best of luck when it goes upstairs to Committee.

6.18 p.m.

We have all enjoyed a typical Plymouth speech. The hon. Member for Drake (Mr. Medland) set out on a voyage. He meant to get there and he did. He said what he meant to say, arrived in port and sat down.

It was typical of the West Country. I cannot help thinking, however, that he and some of his hon. Friends opposite, without desiring to mislead the House, may have rather overweighted what can be done and what the Minister proposes to do under this Bill. I do hope when we are considering this that they will not attribute to it all the things the "Daily Herald" would like to say about it. That would be very misleading to the people of the country, and to our own constituents. I was interested to hear the hon. Member say that this Bill would help to rebuild our cities more than any previous Measure. I think that it is an overstatement, and far more than the Minister claimed for it.

I am not saying that the Bill will not be of use once we have licked it into shape, but I think the hon. Member went a long way, especially in view of the other Measures mentioned in the Bill itself, when he claimed that the Bill would do more than any of the other enactments which have gone before it The hon. Member quoted the opinion of a learned individual. He did not mention the opinion of his own Minister about the Bill. If I had been supporting the Minister, I should have mentioned his speeches inside and outside this House. But no, the hon. Member goes to an individual outside and says that this person has given his blessing to the Bill, except for a qualification on Clause 2. The hon. Member, who put tremendous weight and responsibility for the success of our housing programme on this Clause, quotes his outside authority as saying that, unfortunately, the Clause 1s to last for only five years. That sort of thing shows a complete misunderstanding of the emergency and urgency of purpose of this Bill. [ Laughter .] Well, hon. Members may laugh, but I think it is dangerous, unwise and very unfair to do anything which will mislead the people of this country into a false sense of optimism. Certainly, I will do anything I can to avoid it.

I would ask the hon. Member's colleagues, who might feel so inclined, to say nothing and do nothing in connection with this Bill which will mislead the people by claiming for it powers which it does not, and cannot, possess. Most extraordinary claims have been made about certain educational powers, and the right to put up buildings for the Ministry of Education. The hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Horabin) said how useful the Bill would be-in dealing with the threat of the atomic bomb. Surely that is going rather far, and is an exaggeration in relation to the manner in which this Bill is meant it be used. How is it meant to be used? It is simply stated in Clause 2 which sets out the matter of expediency. If the authority think something should be acquired that is the first consideration, but in my view the first consideration is that of urgency, that it is urgently necessary in the public interest that something should be acquired. I feel that even in these days there are millions of people who do not yet realise the urgency of the housing problem—

I very much doubt whether the Minister would disagree with the statement I have just made. The meetings he has held in different regions have, I think, provided evidence of what I have just said from representatives of local authorities who have attended those meetings. Of course, those who are immediately affected realise the urgency and so, I believe, does every Member in this House. It is the weight of the urgency of this matter which is bound to affect my own judgment of the Bill. I agree with Members on both sides who have pointed out the weaknesses and faults in the structure of the Bill, in particular some of the dangers which are inherent in Clause 2. But, equally, I feel that that Clause can be licked into better shape in Committee. There is a great danger which we shall have difficulty in removing, the danger which is inherent in granting great powers of speed to anybody, the danger with is inherent in putting a driver into a high speed car, and who leaves a place too late to be able to drive with safety along a road because he knows that he has that high speed at his disposal.

I am not saying that the Minister is a dangerous driver; he may be highly skilled for all I know, but I suggest that there might be an invitation to local authorities, if we supply local authorities with a last-minute quick-action machine, not to take the necessary steps early enough, because they might feel that they always have this Measure behind them. I ask the Minister to see whether we cannot avoid delaying initial steps being taken in time because, in reserve, the local authorities feel that they have this emergency Measure in their pockets. We do not want to see them start too late, and then have to travel too fast for the safety of the public and those in their charge. My feeling about the Bill is this: we are considering giving dangerous powers, in a dangerous way in Clause 2. We are living in dangerous times, and although I am prepared to take the risk I am not prepared to agree with the suggestion in the Minister's speech, that land and its acquisition is a major problem and a major brake on the housing programme.

I am not prepared to oppose a Measure which might reduce the production of one house by one hour, because I know the urgency of the problem I take that risk with my eyes open but if, when this Bill comes back from Committee, we still find some of the dangers in it have not been removed, and that invitations to initial delay have not been eradicated, I might change my mind. I should prefer to be satisfied that this Bill would produce one additional house or save one hour in the building of a house, but even if I cannot be given that proof I should be most unfair to myself if I opposed the Bill when it might help.

6.29 p.m.

I am sure that all Members of the House will agree with the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing) as to the urgency of the housing problem. Of all the pathetic letters we get from our constituents, the most pathetic are those from members of the Forces who have returned, and who can find no place to live in. Only a few days ago I received a letter from a man who had recently returned from a prisoner-of-war camp. He said he had been compelled to sleep on the floor since and that, bad as his conditions had been in the prisoner-of-war camp, they had been even more unfortunate since he returned home. That is a very sad thing and I am sure that if this Bill helps to relieve such a situation it will deserve very careful consideration. For my part I welcome it, because it will help not only in connection with housing, but also in connection with the acquisition of land fox other purposes. We in London will need this Bill, both Clauses of it I think, in connection with the replacement and rebuilding of bombed hospitals and schools. In rebuilding we may want to acquire land for slight extensions, or we may decide that it is in the public interest to rebuild a hospital or school on an entirely different site. It seems to me that both Clauses will help in this.

I want to direct the attention of the House mainly to Clause 2—to the speedy arrangements for acquiring the land. I would suggest two slight additions which might be made. A great deal has been said by the hon. Member who has just sat down, and also the hon. and gallant Member for Penrith and Cockermouth (Lieut.-Colonel Dower), as to the danger of Clause 2. The latter Gentleman suggested, if I heard him aright, that it was only necessary for a local authority to issue an Order and in 14 days they could take possession of the land. I will read from the Third Schedule to the Bill, which puts an entirely different aspect on this:

As I have said, there are two minor details in connection with this Bill which I would like to bring before this House. As I see it, as soon as all the necessary preliminaries are completed under Clause 2, and the Order is confirmed, the local authority has the ordinary powers as to the extinction of rights over the land. That is, I understand, a rather complicated business. It means an appeal to the justices, the justices have to inspect the site, and then the matter has to be argued in court. I suggest that there might be a speedier procedure, such as that obtainable under the Housing Act of 1936 and the Town and Country Planning Act of 1944. In these Acts, I believe, the procedure is very much simpler. The Order of a local authority has only to be confirmed by the Minister concerned and then the authority has powers of extinction of rights of way or, if necessary, public roads. In connection with housing, that power is already obtained, but may there not be other conditions under which the procedure under Clause 2 should be used as, for instance, in connection with building hospitals or even factories such as has been suggested by the Minister, or other circumstances in which some speedy procedure for the extinction of rights may be desirable?

There is one other point with which I should like to deal. The procedure under Clause 1 is detailed in the first two Schedules, and the second of those Schedules gives a list of enactments that should be incorporated, but, as I understand it, it only incorporates these enactments under the procedure envisaged under Clause 1. It might be very useful if these enactments were also incorporated under Clause 2, that is, the speedy procedure as well. There are two of these enactments which I should like to mention especially. The first is this. If, under these compulsory purchase powers, it is proposed to take from an owner part of his garden or house when he is ready to sell the whole if need be, then that should only become obligatory if the amenities of the house or garden are not adversely affected. That seems to me very reasonable. The other seems equally reasonable. It is to be found in the Second Schedule, Part III, and says that the arbitrator, in determining the price to be paid for the land, shall not consider any enhanced value that may result from improvements that are not reasonably necessary but have apparently been carried out only to enhance the value of the land which is going to be sold. Those two enactments, and perhaps others, should be incorporated in the procedure for speedy purchase just as much as under the slower procedure under Clause 1 In saying these things, I do not want it to be suggested that I do not feel that the Bill is a very great step forward and one which will help in the provision of the houses and other buildings which local authorities may need. Perhaps I have read the Bill wrongly and what I have said may be unnecessary. If so, I am sure the Minister will tell us so when he replies.

6.38 p.m.

As has been stressed by a number of previous speakers, it is quite clear that there are two perfectly separate things for us to consider in this Bill, namely, the procedure under Clause 1 and the procedure under Clause 2. With regard to the procedure under Clause 1, if I may come to that at once, it is clearly an attempt to simplify existing procedure, and with that principle, I think, few of us would not agree. It is most desirable that this should be done. With regard to the second Clause, which sets out a very much hastier procedure giving considerably less in the way of rights to owners and occupiers, I do feel that we need an altogether stronger justification. The Bill, as a whole, seems to me to have one characteristic which has already been mentioned today, and it is not a good characteristic.

This is another example of a shoddy Bill. Glancing through the Schedules I see that they amend no fewer than 45 Acts of Parliament, if I have counted correctly, and partially repeal 28. We need the law to be made simpler, not made more complicated by each Measure that is passed. There is another point about the drafting of the Bill to which-1 take exception personally. We find in it a phrase which has crept into one or two Bills lately: "as soon as may be" On a recent occasion when he was defending this phrase, the Home Secretary told us that by "as soon as may be" the Labour Government meant "immediately" He could not have been thinking of the housing problem when he said that. I would ask the Minister, if that is really the policy of the Government, whether we might have the word "immediately" instead of that vague phrase, which seems to be open to more interpretations than one.

So far as I can see from reading the Bill—I have been through it twice—one matter has been left out. I could not once find the word "planning" except in references to Ministers or Acts of Parliament. I think I am right in saying that the Minister of Health dismissed the planning aspect of the Bill in one sentence this afternoon. I am very glad that the Minister of Town and Country Planning is to wind up the Debate. It may be that he will explain a little more the planning aspect of the Bill, of which I think we are entitled to know something. Those who have experience of town and country planning will be aware that, after the 1914–1918 war, buildings were put up very hastily and that irreparable harm was done to the cause of planning in this country. We are determined to see that that does not happen again.

The position is not made easier by the fact that town and country planning schemes which were prepared and deposited with the Ministry of Health before the war have not been approved. We still do not know what the position will be about them. There are rumours that those schemes will have to be revised. It is most important that the planning aspect should be borne in mind in respect of acquisitions of property by local authorities or anyone else, and I should like to know a little more about how that will be done. We have had an assurance from the Minister that it will be borne in mind in some way, but I am not quite clear about it. Presumably each of those cases will have to be referred to the local planning authority, but it should be remembered that those authorities do not and cannot meet every day in the week. In the case of the accelerated procedure I think the planning authorities should be consulted first and not afterwards.

As to the procedure under Clause 1 and the First and Second Schedules, I agree that it is a very laudable object to simplify procedure but I am sorry that it has not been done more satisfactorily. It seems to me that this is a rather halfhearted attempt to get simplification and a single procedure. While we were about it we might have done very much better. I agree generally with it, but I would like to point out that it is not altogether satisfactory. Even the procedure under Clause 1 might not be altogether satisfactory to the small man who is the owner or occupier of Louse or land. For example, the compulsory order can go on after a notice in only one newspaper. In the area I represent there are four or five newspapers. It can go on, also, if there has been no notice served on the owner or occupier, according to paragraph I of the First Schedule, and without any right to a local inquiry or even a hearing of an appeal, if the Minister says so. If the owner or occupier appeals, the Minister can decide not even to hear that appeal. That provision leaves considerable room for improvement.

In regard to the procedure under Clause 2, the Minister gave us the example of a colliery company which was not willing to part with land urgently needed for a factory. It is rather curious to come to us today and tell us that these powers are needed in order to make colliery companies give up their land quickly when we have only just been discussing the Second Reading of a Bill to nationalise the colliery companies. We need some better excuse than that. I am prepared to believe that there is a good case for this accelerated procedure but I have not been convinced by the arguments I have heard this afternoon. I found the arguments of the hon. Member for the Drake division of Plymouth (Mr. Medland) much more convincing than those of the Minister of Health. We need to have a serious case before we agree to this kind of procedure.

It should be noted that under the accelerated procedure the owner or occupier has only 14 days in which to appeal, after he has received a warning, whereas the local authority has no less time than three months in which to enter. If the local authority is in such a hurry to enter, why does it require such a long time as three months? Why allow the owner only the very short time of 14 days in which to appeal? It must be remembered that the owner may not have received the notice promptly. I am in sympathy with the objects of Clause 1, but I am disappointed that we should not have had something a little better. With regard to Clause 2 and the accelerated procedure, I am still unconvinced that any case has been made out for it.

6.50 p.m.

I do not intend to detain the House for more than two or three minutes; I do not wish to discuss the main provisions of this Measure. There is just one point I would like to ask the Minister to be good enough to deal with in his reply; it relates to common land. Every part of the country has problems which differ from each other. In my constituency, for instance, there is a unique problem. It is a little township of about 6,000 inhabitants, with 70 acres of common land almost in the centre; and, of course, this land is most suitable for house building. This cannot, however, be taken without providing other land in exchange; and so far as I am aware there is not 70 acres of other land available to exchange. Will the Minister be good enough therefore to tell the House if there is anything in Part III of the First Schedule to this Bill which would help a local authority in that connection? Let me pursue the point a little further. Suppose the local authority did take, say, 10 acres of that 70 of common land and finds in exchange another 10 acres; will the machinery of this Bill provide that the local authority can acquire compulsorily that other 10 acres within its area? I do not know sufficient about the land problem to dwell upon the main principles of the Measure, but I would like the Minister before the Bill is sent to Committee upstairs to look into the point I have raised and let us have a reply tonight.

6.52 p.m.

I join with other Members on this side of the House in giving a very hearty welcome to this Bill. Like the hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. York), I think I can say that this Bill is built on hatreds, though not the hatreds to which he referred. The hatreds on which this Bill is set up are hatreds of overcrowding and slumdom, and the general discomfort of the great masses of population of this country. We believe that by speedy and compulsory acquisition of land as set out in Clause 2, we should be able to get on with the housing problem much quicker than we have been able to do in the past. The hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing) said he did not believe that there was any place where it was quite impossible to acquire building land. I would refer him to a very important part of my own con- stituency, the borough of Chingford. It is a well-known constituency where many, people from the East End have come to live. It has an authority with a very great care for the way in which it plans the borough. On one side we are bounded by the great London boroughs, such as Walthamstow, which makes it quite impossible to move anywhere in that direction. At the other end of the borough, we have Epping Forest. I would like to tell my right hon. Friend the Minister for Town and Country Planning, that the people who live in Chingford would think it the greatest vandalism to start building in the Forest area even on the "fringes," as they were rather contemptuously called by my right hon. Friend the Minister. Like the housemaid's baby, the infringement is "only a little one," apparently so that it does not very much matter. We who live in Chingford would regard it as the greatest vandalism to extend in that direction, though we have had very real difficulty in getting sites within the borough. The powers proposed under Clause 2 would be very useful in ending irritating delays in reaching agreement about prices and in other negotiations.

One of the first questions I raised when I came into this House was with regard to a site which we wanted to acquire, and concerning which there were endless negotiations about price and so on. There are areas like Walthamstow where land is scarce, and where the problem of housing the people is acute. I would draw the attention of the House to what I consider the greatest of all our problems in regard to housing, and that is the housing of the young married couples—the boys who went into the army as school-boys and are now fathers. They are experiencing great difficulty in finding places in which to settle down. We must use every power at our command, such as the powers conferred by Clause 2 of the Bill, to get on with the problem, and acquire quickly any sites upon which to begin work of building, even while negotiations are still going on.

There is another matter in which I am extremely interested. This also was raised by the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare. It is the question of school buildings. This problem appeals to me more than to many Members in the House this afternoon because I call myself an educationist; most of my life has been spent in education circles in this country. I watched the great Education Act of 1945 with the closest care. There was the greatest optimism that we would be able to raise the school leaving age to 15, but the right hon. Lady the present Minister, and, before her, the right hon. Gentleman whom she succeeded, have informed us that the school age cannot be raised to 15 this year, and may not be raised to 15 next year. What is the root of the problem? It is that we have no teachers, and no schools. The solution of the question of getting schools will be considerably helped by the Clause of this Bill. It is not simply a question of buying the land and snatching it up in the way suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Penrith and Cockermouth (Lieut.-Colonel Dower). It is a case of getting on to the land, getting rid of the delay, getting everything ready for puting up the schools, and negotiating in the meanwhile. We must do this in every part of the country and do it speedily, because the local authorities have to submit their development plans by 1st April next. I am very glad, from the point of view of education and of the possibility of helping to raise the school leaving age, that we are to have the powers conferred by Clause 2 of this Bill.

My next point is one with which I am very much concerned at the present time. I have been inundated with letters from people all over London, as well as from my own constituency, about an incident which has only just come to light in the Press, and which has been mentioned already this afternoon, namely, the compulsory acquisition of 20 acres of land in Epping Forest. I welcome the safeguards in this Bill which are fully set out in the First Schedule, Part III, paragraph 11, that in so far as a compulsory purchase order authorises the purchase of land belonging to the National Trust, which is held by the Trust inalienably, special Parliamentary procedure must take place. I regard that as a most valuable safeguard, and I wish we had been safeguarded in the same way with regard to the compulsory acquisition which has taken place. I would fell the Minister of Town and Country Planning that, if he will look back into history, be will see that nothing is so firmly implanted in the hearts of the people of this country as a dislike of having their common rights taken away from them. From the days of the enclosures, up to the present time, people have fought to keep those lands which belong to them, and I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman has allowed his right hon. Friend to behave in this way with this part of Epping Forest.

I am very glad, therefore, that in this part of the Bill we are safeguarded from that kind of vandalism in the future. Here is this great and noble forest, a forest which those who live in London and the environs of London regard as a most priceless possession. Someone said to me, "What does it matter to you? You are a cosmopolitan" Believe me, it is because I am a cosmopolitan that I love Epping Forest. It is a solace for being a cosmopolitan it is a solace very often for being in this House. I have the most beautiful constituency in England—beautiful because it contains Epping Forest. Therefore I welcome very much this part of the Bill, which will protect the rights of those people who believe in the preservation of our open spaces, who do not live by bread alone, or even by houses alone, but who believe that there is a spiritual value as well as a physical asset for the people of this country in their great and noble open spaces.

I hope that, in replying, the Minister will tell us what he proposes to do to safeguard from other building developments the great Green Belt of London; whether that is safeguarded in any way under this Bill; what he proposes to do with some of that common land, which has been stolen by the various Ministries, such as Sewardstone, which is part of the Forest and is disfigured by camps and hutments. I want to know when all that mess is to be cleared away, and when we are to get again the beauty and dignity of this great open space.

7.2 p.m.

May I confirm what I thought the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison) had made abundantly clear, but which apparently has not been perceived by all hon. Members opposite; that is, that whereas we on this side in principle are in full support of this Measure, we disagree with its form. It cannot be said that any hon. Member on this side has done or will do anything to impede or obstruct any Measure which in any way affects the production of houses for our people, and we give the right hon. Gentleman gladly that assistance in the principle which is covered by this Bill, which it would seem that he has produced to assist him in his house production—and it would also appear by present result's that he is badly in need of assistance.

I would like to refer very shortly to the fact that the existing machinery for the compulsory acquisition of land, particularly by the local authorities, is wide, is widely used, and is admittedly one which is capable of a certain expansion which we on this side would welcome. However, it might surprise certain hon. Members to know that all land which has been acquired for local authority building in this country has not been acquired compulsorily under great strain and with great bitterness against the grasping type of landowner whom the right hon. Gentleman the Minister is such an adept at painting. It would amaze hon. Members, perhaps, to know the amount of land which has been speedily negotiated between the local authority and the owner through the medium of that excellent body of civil servants, the district valuers. I come, possibly, from a part in which we are lucky, where our landowners are not, in the main, the type which this House is all too often led to believe is that of every landowner. They do not spend their time squeezing the orange of the people, as we were told this afternoon. It would surprise the House, possibly, to know that we are so fortunate as to have landowners who have donated land gladly as a public gesture for public building. That is a very right and proper thing, for we in Wales still believe we have a great deal to teach our English friends over the border. That, again, is only what follows the nature of events, for, surely, our forbears were busy with their housing programmes, as were those of our Scots cousins, before the majority of the Members of this House arrived to requisition those houses from across the sea.

But I would, in seriousness, remind the House that the operation of Clause 2 would hit ruthlessly and cruelly—and be to the detriment of the very Bill itself when it becomes law—of a very different type of landowner: or landlord. I am visualising in my part of the world those outskirts of our towns which are quite clearly and properly destined to become housing estates under the local authority schemes in the very near future, and they are, in fact, so scheduled in our town planning schemes. There are very many allotment holders, there are very many smallholdings owned by people who have put their all into this land. Are they to be given 14 days' notice under the Third Schedule? Are they to have no rights of reasonable objection, of having their case heard, and what will constitute entry? Will it be the arrival of two workmen carrying a large sign—"Borough of—Housing Scheme, conceived 1945, born?"? Surely it will take many local authorities, as so many hon. Members will know from their experience, on the average 28 days to decide upon the notice to acquire. The city surveyor will produce his scheme to the sub-committee of the housing committee, and very likely it will take a fortnight or up to a month, for it to be confirmed in open council. Surely, if the acquisitive authority is entitled to his 28 days, it should be given to the smallholding landowner, the person who is liable to suffer, the very person hon. Members opposite seek to protect. Tidy up this Bill and make it a little clearer. Forget the rampaging landlord of political imagination. Let us be practical, and realise that there are very many landlords who are entitled to more protection than the proceedings under this Bill will give them.

Finally, it is hoped that when this Bill becomes law—as it inevitably will because of the constitution of this House today—the Minister will bear in mind the improvement of one unsatisfactory feature in our existing procedure for the acquisition of land by local authorities. Under the existing procedure there are public and local inquiries, such as there may be under this Bill. An inspector of a Ministry arrives, hears the various evidence and objections—I have seen it all too often—not of the large landowners, but of the smaller landowner who may have put his all financially into property for which he is to get a meagre compensation. Quite properly, in accordance with his right, he objects. I am not casting any aspersions upon an excellent body of gentlemen, the inspectors of the various Ministries. They come down and, quite judicially and fully and fairly, hear the evidence. Then their report goes to the Minister, and the next thing that is known is that the objection has been refused and no reasons are given. Surely that is a lack of any judicial idea of things upon which our very existence rests. To use the Army expression, the notice comes that the Minister has heard his inspector's report and the small objector has, in the Army vernacular, quite definitely "had it". I suggest that in any inquiry that the Minister sets up, the findings of an inspector's report should be published. There should be an avoidance of the tendency to govern this country, not through the constitutional chamber of this House, but through Order and Ministerial edict, which I predict. If I may speak as a prophet, will cause hon. Members opposite to rue the day in years to come but, what is worse, will cause the country to rue the day.

7.11 p.m.

I should like to assure the Minister, as he may need the assurance after some of the speeches he has heard from the other side of the House, that in general this Measure is very widely approved by most of the municipal authorities with whom I have had any contact. That is certainly so in the case of my own borough, representation of which I share with the Lord President of the Council. There we are concerned to obtain land as quickly as possible for urgent rehousing. We have the melancholy record of having had the highest dosage of explosives per acre during the war of any metropolitan borough. I am not desirous of starting a competition in horrifies, but it is a fact that, in addition to 50,000 houses damaged, we have lost 3,500 houses completely destroyed, and another 6,000 which cannot be used at the present time.

In Lewisham we are faced with the problem of trying to find accommodation in a restricted area for 5,000 families. I emphasise families. They are actually homeless and split up at night, parents often going to live with friends and relatives and being separated from their children. Any Measure which can aid us in this small area in our urgent housing requirements will be received as satisfactory evidence of the Government's intention to do the maximum possible in present circumstances. We all know that the existing methods, even when they operate in the best possible way, are long- winded, tiresome and expensive. On behalf of the type of congested area which I represent, I can assure the Minister that his plans are being well received.

There are two points on which I would like some advice and guidance. I am not quite certain how far they are actually covered in the Bill. A number of authorities are facing the problem of whether until this Bill becomes law, which even under the efficient administration of the present Government is bound to take some time, they should go ahead under the old procedure or should wait until this Measure becomes an Act. Supposing there is a housing authority with 10 sites, would it be better for it to go ahead on the old procedure, hoping that some of the sites might become available, or should it wait until the new proposals become law? I wonder whether the Minister would consider the possibility on the Committee stage of some transitional arrangement whereby housing authorities who have been using the old procedure and have not become too much involved in negotiation might have the right to switch over to the new procedure when it becomes law if negotiations are apparently to be very long delayed.

It is obviously very desirable in the urgent and immediate rehousing that a local authority might divert or alter an existing highway, and the present enactments upon which one has to rely are the slum clearance provisions of the Act of 1936 and the Highways Act of 1835, which was enacted 112 years ago. With the best intentions, legislators of that time could not have had our present circumstances in mind, and whole areas have been built up long before there was any extensive system of town planning. It would be highly desirable if such local authorities might divert highways through a particular site. I should be glad to know from the Minister whether something of this nature could foe incorporated in the Bill, or whether, in fact, some of the Clauses will cover such a contingency.

7.17 p.m.

I wish I could join with 1hose who have given a welcome to this Bill, but I cannot conscientiously do so. I am critical of this Bill. When one is critical on a matter so liable to misunderstanding as this ques- tion of land in its relation to the housing programme, it behoves one to be very clear, especially in view of the fact that there are skilled pamphleteers among hon. Members opposite. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill built-up part of his reputation as a political pamphleteer. It is true, that as a Minister of the Crown he cannot indulge now in that form of activity, but should the contagion of resignation spread from the junior to the senior ranks of Ministers, it may be that before the next Election he will have reverted to his usual practices.

This Bill purports to do two things. In the first place it codifies existing procedure of compulsory acquisition of land. Secondly, by Clause 2, and the Third Schedule, it provides procedure for speedier entry, possession and acquisition. I do not deny that the time is due, and, perhaps, overdue, for codification of our complex system of compulsory acquisition of land; but I suggest that other things being equal one should be quite sure before codifying, standardising, and perpetuating, that the system is the best which can be achieved. On the second point, I would be in favour of any Measure to acquire land that could be shown to be necessary for the housing programme.

I want to be quite clear on these two points. No such necessity has been shown to exist. Indeed, it is admitted that land is the one element in the housing programme which is abundantly available. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health falls back on the argument that though there is a global sufficiency of land, there is insufficient for certain local authorities. It may be within the recollection of hon. Members that the right hon. Gentleman was pressed on that question on 15th November last. He was asked how many local authorities had no land for housing, and he said 29 local authorities had no land for housing. But, when he was further pressed, he said 25 of those 29 had taken no steps to acquire land. It was not the lack of power to acquire land that prevented them; it was the lack of intention. This Bill does not pretend to give local authorities an intention to acquire; nor, in fact, does it give them any wider powers of compulsory acquisition. That has been admitted-by the right horn Gentleman; and, indeed, it is quite explicit in Clauses 1 and 2 of this Bill, that no powers of compulsory acquisition are given which are not already prescribed by some other Statute. So I think we are bound to ask ourselves why this Measure is brought in now.

In my submission the answer is clear. This Measure is brought in now as a face saver. There was a great deal of wild talk at the General Election by Socialist candidates, more particularly, no doubt, those with the least knowledge of the procedure for the compulsory acquisition of land, as to the way in which land was the great obstacle which was standing in the way of the housing of the people. Now this Measure is brought in to justify that talk. It is brought in to justify the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health to show that those energies which boiled over in such diverse and peculiar directions in the last Parliament are now harnessed to the administrative machine, and are steaming ahead for the public good in the housing of the people of this country. It is a large face saver with its many Schedules, and its varied amendments, and comprehensive repeals. This Bill gives no additional powers of compulsory acquisition. All it does is to take away rights.

Let us consider Clause 2 in relation to the small man who owns a small house on a small piece of land. I take this case deliberately because I want to get away from this idea, so sedulously propagated by hon. Members opposite, that land is the concern exclusively of men of broad acres and narrow views—that fiction which they are so fond of addressing to the people of this country. It is the small man with whom I am concerned, living, I will not say in peace and plenty but in peace and such restricted plenty as the policies and practices of His Majesty's Government allow. There he is like Naboth of old in his vineyard, and covetous eyes are cast upon his land The Minister is satisfied—and I venture to say the Minister would be easily satisfied in these matters—that it is urgently necessary in the public interest that the house and land—because the house is included in the land in the scope of compulsory acquisition—should be purchased. The man gets his 14 days' notice—14 days in which to consider the notice, to take advice, to instruct his lawyers, and to draft his objections. Fourteen days.

That is half, perhaps a quarter, of the average time taken by the right hon. Gentlemen in this Government, with the whole of the skilled assistance of their Departments, to answer the simple queries put to them in letters by hon. Members. Fourteen days for the citizen to lodge his objections.

What then? The hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Somerville Hastings) made much of the fact that the Minister was bound to consider these objections. That is true under the Third Schedule to this Bill. But in what way does he consider them? There is no right of audience for the citizen or for his lawyers. There is no duty laid upon the Minister to consider them judicially or in any other way. What, in practice, happens is that the Minister considers them behind closed doors, and then gives a notification that the compulsory acquisition is authorised. There is no right of inquiry after that. Compulsory purchase follows automatically; with it compensation, it is true, but hon. Members should bear in mind that under the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, there is no appeal from the decision of an arbitrator.

That, then, is the position of the citizen dwelling in his small house, what time the local authority dawdle at their convenience for the three months they are given by this Bill, into possession of his land. That is the position of the ordinary citizen under this expedited procedure, of Clause 2, which is not shown to have any justification or necessity in the housing of the people of this country. I know it is old-fashioned doctrine now to say an Englishman's house is his castle; if this Bill becomes law it will, quite clearly, be a sand castle to be blown hither and thither by the winds that blow from Whitehall. So much for Clause 2 and the totalitarian procedure, if I may be forgiven that word, which it prescribes. I use that word deliberately, because I have had the curiosity to inquire what was the procedure followed in Nazi Germany for the compulsory acquisition of land to make their strategic roads, and I discovered it was the procedure of quick entry, followed by compensation in precisely the way that is prescribed by this Bill today.

Now, I pass briefly to one or two more general observations on the system of compulsory acquisition procedure which it is designed to codify and standardise. Surely this House is right, if we are to codify this procedure, to examine it and investigate it to see whether it has attained the highest attainable pitch of perfection which justifies us in seeking to preserve it in perpetuity. In my view, what we should look for under a system of compulsory acquisition of land is speed and efficiency, on the one hand, and, so far as they are compatible with that, a fair judicial hearing so that the interests of all may be taken into account. Now, I know it is supposed that local inquiries are incompatible with speed. It is true that in many cases a long time has elapsed before land has been acquired under the procedure of local inquiry. That is true, but why? I have investigated four cases from a great city in the North of England and those cases each took a period of nine to 12 months before the Order was confirmed. The delay arose from two causes and—this is what I would wish to impress on the House—it arose, first, from Ministerial delay in convening and assembling the inquiry, and, second, from Ministerial delay in confirming, or otherwise, the Order after having received the report of the inspector who held the inquiry.

Therefore, we have the strange but perhaps not altogether unusual situation of Ministers blaming their own delays on the judicial element in the system of compulsory acquisition of which it seems to be their intention to get rid. I agree that the system of local inquiry is not perfect. I have, in my professional experience as a barrister, had some first-hand acquaintance with it. But it is unsatisfactory, not for the reasons generally given, but rather because there is not a sufficient judicial element in these local inquiries. I would rather see a better tribunal than the inspectors who at present report—a tribunal more like the tribunal under the London Building Act, which would be empowered, not only to report to the Minister, but to hear evidence and then make decisions in accordance with Government policy as embodied in Statutes. That, I believe, is the direction in which we ought to be proceeding, if we are to combine a higher measure of speed and efficiency, on the one hand, with fair hearing for all parties and fair consideration of all relevant factors on the other.

Instead of moving in that direction, we are steadily whittling away the right to have local inquiries. It is further whittled away in the First Schedule to this Bill by the alternative given to the Minister, if he sees fit, to have a private consultation with the parties. That may be all right for owners of property; but there is a planning aspect. The virtue of a public local inquiry is that not only are representatives there from the owners of land and the propertied interests, but the various amenity societies, and other persons concerned with the proper user of land in the interests of the public as a whole. They cannot be represented in the alternative procedure, which the Minister may now, at will, substitute for the public local inquiry. It is a retrograde doctrine for right hon. Gentlemen opposite to take the reactionary view—as it appears they do from this Clause—that the only people whose interest in the user of land should be considered, are those who happen to own it. It is not the doctrine one would expect to hear from the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health and the Minister of Town and Country Planning.

It is not for me to suggest the machinery of compulsory acquisition procedure that would be best; but I do suggest that we should not be in too great a hurry to codify the existing procedure, which is widely recognised to be imperfect and inadequate. We should take thought in this matter, and I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman would do better to have a thorough investigation made of this problem, either by a Departmental Committee or Royal Commission, before finally codifying the procedure. If a case should be made out, at any time, for more expeditious powers of compulsory acquisition for housing, then right hon. Gentlemen opposite could bring in a one-Clause Bill, which would not be opposed on this side of the House if the need for it were properly made out. Meanwhile, I recommend to them that, instead of taking up the time of the House with this Bill, they would be better employed on the work of investigating the whole system of compulsory procedure, and that the Minister of Health should go back to his Department and tackle the real obstacles in the way of the great task of housing the people of this country.

7.35 p.m.

I have listened to most of the speeches delivered on this Bill today, and it would appear to me that hon. Members opposite offer very little objection to Clause 1 of this Bill. They appear to take the view that the normal procedure is adequate. I think it can be said that we, on this side of the House, also agree that that normal procedure is adequate, and that explains the reason for its incorporation in the Bill, but, I think it must be made perfectly clear that, although the procedure is there and has been in existence for some long time, that procedure has not been used, and that those who have defaulted most in the exercise of its powers, have been Conservative-controlled local authorities. As a result of their failure to use the power, which exists for solving the housing problem, we have had an accumulation of the difficulties of this problem, and we are, at the moment, at a stage where nothing but the emergency measures in Clause 2 can overcome the arrears and mitigate the urgency of the problem. We find that, as a result of the failure of past Governments and of Conservative-controlled local authorities to exercise the powers which exist, we have today, superimposed upon our wartime housing problem, the problem of the past, which stretches over a good many years. It is perfectly obvious, in these circumstances, that to rely entirely, in this state of housing emergency, upon the procedure of Clause 1 only, could not hasten a solution of the problem with which we have to deal.

I think all who have had experience of local government work, and all who have been associated with national conferences on town planning and housing problems, must have been impressed very forcibly by the fact that, at the bottom of our problem, is this question of access to land. I well remember, not very long ago, listening to an admirable speech by Lord Balfour of Burleigh, who is not, I believe, attached to this party, but who, nevertheless, has taken a great interest in the housing problem and was for some time a member of the Advisory Committee of the Minister of Health. He spoke most urgently on this problem of access to land, stressing that unless and until we can solve that question, local authorities will never be able to solve their housing and town planning problems. Therefore, it is proposed, in Clause 2 of this Bill that exceptional measures shall be used in its solution. When hon. Members opposite say that by the exercise of these powers, not one additional house will be produced, up to a point, possibly, they are correct. What the Bill will do is to ensure that a larger number of houses will be erected in a shorter space of time.

Let me illustrate that point. I am very much concerned with the problems which exist in London and the Greater London area, and I am very glad my right hon. Friend the Minister of Town and Country Planning is here today, because this is a matter in which he is very intimately concerned. During the period between the two wars, there has been a considerable extension of industry and population in the Greater London region, until, today, we have a resident population, in round figures, of 10,324,000 which is very nearly 25 per cent. of the population of our whole country. Under the recommendations of that well-known scheme, the Greater London Plan, it is suggested by our best town planners that this Greater London region is not only over-populated but over-industrialised. It is recommended that, of this vast population, well over 1,000,000 should be decentralised and sent into other regions. It also means, a number of local authorities in the Greater London region will, under the terms of this Plan, be unable to develop new housing schemes, because it is suggested that new schemes should be barred and no new development take place.

Lots of these local authorities have an appalling housing problem to solve, but under the terms of this new planning scheme they will not themselves be able to solve the problem. It is also recommended that a number of these over-industrialised areas shall be industrially decentralised, which means that a number of factories and industrial enterprises will be sent out of the area to other parts of the country. We are very concerned about this particular Bill and the powers that are within it, and we should like to hear from the Minister how these powers will help us in the Greater London area to solve our over-population and over-industrialised problem. We ourselves will have little or no power to solve that problem. Our surplus population will have to go some 40 to 50 miles away, and industry will have to go there too; whether they are able to go there or not will depend upon whether the local authorities in the areas concerned use these powers which we are placing at their disposal, and not only use them, but use them in a co-ordinated way. There are about 143 local authorities situated in the Greater London planning region and their surplus population and surplus industries will have to go, not necessarily to one particular spot, but into many different areas.

To what extent will it be possible to co-ordinate the work of those local authorities in order that land may be acquired not only for our surplus population, but also for the industries that we shall have to get rid of? Well over 1,000,000 people living in London and the Greater London region have to be rehoused and I should say that it is obvious to everybody that, in endeavouring to solve the urgency of our housing problem we must, first of all, obtain access to the land, and if that is to take from nine to twelve months, how will the Government, the Minister of Health, the Minister of Works and the Minister of Town and Country Planning be able to plan our rehousing development? We must have land, and having got the land, we must develop our plans and decide how many houses or flats we are to accommodate; and on the basis of that plan our housing schemes can be developed. To suggest that we can tolerate a delay of from nine to twelve months in getting the first essential of our housing scheme laid down, merely means we are playing about with the urgency of the problems and that we are not at all anxious to solve them.

I want to say, in conclusion, a word or two about the question of decentralisation of industry. This Bill is intended to give power to the Board of Trade for the purposes of acquiring land under the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945. I do not think the powers in that Bill are sufficient by any means to solve the problem which the Greater London area is facing. As regards decentralisation of industry, if industries in Greater London are to go elsewhere—and many will not want to go willingly—they will want to go to a more convenient site, somewhere, perhaps, a bit further away, but not too far away, from London. There is no power under the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945, to provide acceptable accommodation for the industries which will be decentralised from the Greater London region. I want the Board of Trade to have those powers to acquire land, in order that industries in these over-industrialised areas may be accommodated, under the terms of this Bill.

I ask the Minister when he replies to deal with this question of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, for I see that this particular Act is excluded from the Bill. I am rather sorry it is, because it contains, amongst other things, certain housing powers, and it is most important that we should have powers to deal with rehousing in development areas. If we have to rely upon the somewhat complicated, cumbersome and prolonged procedure which that Act lays down, to say nothing about the financial disabilities, I am afraid that is going to retard rehousing in development areas. I would like to see the powers of this Bill extended to the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, in so far as it relates to rehousing schemes; it is important that we should place housing in the forefront of our endeavours, and I believe that this Bill is designed to that end. Therefore, would my right hon. Friend tell us the relationship of the housing powers of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, to the Bill we are now discussing? Is there power for the Board of Trade to deal with the decentralisation of industry in the Greater London area? Can we have co-ordinated action by the local authorities in the Greater London region to carry through the rehousing provisions of the Greater London plan? If the Minister throws some light on these questions, it will be of great assistance to those of us who represent constituencies in London, and the Greater London region, because our problems are difficult and serious, and we are looking to this House and to the Government for a solution of them.

7.47 p.m.

I do not intend to occupy the time of the House for long and I rise only to deal with one point which, so far as I know, has no1 been touched upon in this Debate. Before attempting to ask for an explanation on that point I want to say that some of us on this side of the House find it very refreshing that the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) should assure us that the viewpoint of the Tory Party has been unchanged in 40 years with regard to the acquisition, for public purposes, of land. His speech indicated that, in spite of all the nice things which from time to time they say, at heart they are unchanged. The leopard does not change its spots. Exactly what was being said by them in 1906 is being said today.

I do not want to interrupt the hon. Member, but as he has trailed his coat so obviously, I would not care to disappoint him. Really he ought to get his facts right. I made no reference to the state of mind of the Tory Party in the last 40 years, and I put forward a considered view on what I thought would be an improvement in the procedure.

I take it then that the hon. Member did not state precisely what he intended. In going through the provisions of the present Bill I can find no reference whatever to the power to acquire land in this way by authorities who are compelled to go outside their own boundaries to obtain land for housing purposes. I represent one of the divisions of the city of Salford and after the building of 800 houses we shall be compelled to go outside the city boundaries for land for building purposes.

In looking through the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, I find that in Section 12 provision is made for the purchase of land by local planning authorities for areas where land is, in lieu of by promoting authorities. I am anxious that the powers provided by this Bill for the purchase of land within a local authority's area shall be extended for the purposes of overspill. Therefore, I ask the Minister to promise that consideration will be given to this matter on the Committee stage.

7.51 p.m.

I feel that today there are three pairs of rivals between whom agreement must be reached. The first are the individual rights of man and public necessity; the second, the convenience of any scheme and the planning of any scheme; and the third, the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Works. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) spoke of his alarm at the thought of what will happen if everything has to go through Ministries and there are only 14 days in which to get it through. I would like, briefly, to give the House an account of one instance which bears out the difficulty of getting co-ordination between various Ministries. In one of the towns in my constituency, on nth October, work began on a site for temporary houses. On 27th October a letter was sent to the Regional Office saying that the site would be ready by 10th November, seven days in advance of the contract date. On 12th November a letter was sent to the Regional Office saying that the contractors were still on the site, although the site was prepared. On 14th November another letter was sent. On 15th November there was an interview with the two contractors whom the Regional Office had said were doing the slabbing, but neither of those two contractors had heard from the Ministry. So the muddle went on throughput November. Considerable confusion was caused in the end because of a misreading of a letter written to the Ministry by the town council. That letter was perfectly straightforward, and there was a misunderstanding of plain English. If there were time, I would read the letter to the House.

The point I want to make is that this Bill is simply a screen for omissions and shortcomings. I am sure many hon. Members could give examples from their own constituencies pointing to a lack of cohesion between the Ministries. This afternoon, even the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health admitted that that is one of the difficulties to be overcome. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman would very much better serve the interests of the nation and the housing problem by getting down to the business of a tie-up between the Ministries as regards building. This Bill is ill-considered. It is a Bill which affects not only the building side, but a great many other interests.

I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman who is to reply some questions particularly about the Fifth Schedule to the Bill. In that Schedule, parts of the Smallholdings and Allotments Acts, 1908 and 1926, are repealed. Section 25 (2) of the 1908 Act is completely repealed. That Subsection gave power to councils to acquire compulsorily land for smallholdings, if it could not be got in any other way. Why is that provision of the Act being repealed? I put the same question with regard to Section 41 (1), which included, under restrictions as to compulsory acquisition, any land acquired by the council under the 1908 Act, or acquired by any corporation or company for the purposes of railways, docks, canals, water or other public undertakings. In the Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1926, Section 17 (2), which allows the Minister to require any objector to state in writing the grounds for his objections if he considers a public inquiry unnecessary or that the case is suitable for arbitration, is also repealed. I hope the Minister will tell us why those various provisions are being repealed.

I think that hon. Members in all parts of the House have, at best, damned this Bill with faint praise. The building and housing problem at the present time calls for the best Bill the House can produce, and I consider this Bill falls very far short of being the best. I believe that right hon. Gentlemen on the Government Front Bench would do well to try to co-ordinate their Ministries a little bit more and try to get the same co-operation between themselves as various representatives from the councils have got when they have come to see the officials. In view of the correspondence to which I referred earlier in my remarks, I do not consider that 14 days is enough as a period within which to appeal against a notice of compulsory acquisition. I hope the House will reject this Bill as being utterly inadequate. It may do the things which the Minister wants to do, but I do not believe it is adequate to meet the needs of the moment I shall oppose it.

7.59 p.m.

I propose to confine my remarks to Clause 2 of the Bill, which seems to have attracted most attention from hon. Members opposite. I wish to refer to some of the points that were made by the right hon. Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison). The right hon. Gentleman used his skill as a Scotsman and a lawyer to obscure the real issues by complaining about a number of points. In view of the fact that I believe another Scottish Member is to wind up for the Opposition, it looks rather as if they are making heavy weather of what is really a straightforward and simple procedure Bill. In the first place, the right hon. Gentleman made a plea on behalf of the little man, the small owner-occupier. Why is it that on every occasion they find it necessary to call in the assistance of the little man? When they are talking about controls, they make a plea on behalf of the small shopkeeper and the little man in business. When they are talking about nationalisation of the Bank or the control of investment, they talk about the little man's savings, when, really, what they are concerned with are the big monopolies, the cartels and the big investment companies. Similarly, on this occasion when they make these urgent pleas on behalf of the little man, in an attempt to bring tears to our eyes, what they are really thinking of are the big commercial companies and the vested interests in land.

My experience of local councils in dealing with these matters has always been that the little man in the cottage has presented no problem at all. The local authority is often able to provide alternative accommodation, and the compensation has certainly been reasonable and adequate. What have held up matters for weeks and months have been the vested interests of commercial concerns who have other ideas about the development of the land They are the people who have stood in the way and literally taken up the time that might have been used in building. That brings me to the second point which the right hon. Gentleman made in his plea that we should return to the prewar practice of talking things over, of going through long negotiations, by sitting round the table and trying to reach agreement instead of going for the compulsory order. My experience of that procedure is that it eats up weeks and months, and with the housing situation as it is at the present time we cannot afford to waste the time. We must get on to the land and get on with the building. That is why I am pleased to find that Clause 2 provides for a speeding up of the procedure for compulsory purchase.

I gather from people who have had experience, coupled with my own knowledge of the situation, that before the war three to four months was the average length of time taken to acquire land on behalf of a local authority. If this procedure can cut down that time by half, then on every site urgently required by a local authority for building houses we shall save six weeks to two months. If a local authority is going to engage on half a dozen schemes within the next two or three years, we shall save six times two months, which is equivalent to 12 months' building time, directly as the result of the speed up in this procedure. If hon. Members opposite are genuine in their desire to see houses go up as quickly as possible, they cannot with a clear conscience oppose this procedure for acquiring land. They made it only too clear on occasion that they had not studied this Bill. One hon. Member wanted to know why it was that local authorities, having received the compulsory purchase order, should take three months to go in on the land.

Actually, that is an advantage for the little owner-occupier for whom they have been speaking. Although a local authority has the compulsory purchase order confirmed and can go in at any time during a period of three months when it is ready to start building, from my knowledge of local authorities they will not suddenly issue a 14 days' notice and then step in and push out the little man in his cottage. In plenty of time beforehand they will give notice as to when they are likely to start on the scheme. Far from the owner-occupier only having 14 days' notice, as some hon. Members suggest, the real facts are that he is going to have at least six or seven weeks from the time when the procedure is first initiated, and, once the compulsory order is confirmed, he is likely to have anything up to three months in which to make alternative arrangements. My experience is that in discussing these matters within the terms of the compulsory order local authorities give the fullest information to the people involved, so that any suggestion that the speed up is hard on the owner-occupier is nothing but sheer nonsense.

Another hon. Member was very anxiously concerned about the absent landlord who would not get notice when the local authority was acquiring the land. In real practice such a situation is unheard of. One would have thought, from the way hon. Members opposite have been prating about the Socialist Government, that they would have kept a very severe and careful watch over their property, whether it be money in the bank, land or jewels. To suggest that an innocent Tory landlord was going to lose his property because a local authority was going to take it over while he was away is ridiculous nonsense. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cirencester made an urgent plea on behalf of the rights of the minority. Again, I would say to him that this party is just as anxious as he is to see that the rights of minorities are looked after.

What we say on this particular question of acquiring land as quickly as possible in order to build houses, is that the vested interests of the small minority—the owners of the land—are not going to hold up a big building programme on behalf of the great mass of the people who urgently need houses. He also said that the land would not be the problem. I suggest that he has no real acquaintance with the conditions round London and the other big cities of this country. I am one of the Members for the largest Metropolitan borough. This borough has only one scheme in being at the present time because it is being held up by land negotiation. Its first local inquiry was only completed the other day, and this speed up will enable the new Socialist council, which took over in November, to acquire land more quickly. It was the custom of the Tory council to enter into long and wearisome negotiations before turning to this procedure, and that is the reason why land is lacking there for the building of houses.

We of this party say, when issues of this nature have to be considered—when we are concerned with the rights of property owners, on the one hand, and the urgent need of the great mass of the people on the other—that the social good must come before private interests and private profit. Although we may, on occasion, cut across private interests, nevertheless, we maintain that any such interference is completely justified if done for the common good. I am certain that if hon. Members opposite would only consider this Bill in the proper light and examine their consciences, they would find there is no possible ground on which to attack the procedure outlined in Clause 2.

Before the hon. and gallant Gentleman sits down, I would like to ask him whether he includes occupiers as well.

I am afraid that when an hon. Member steps out of the blue and asks whether I include occupiers, I have no knowledge at all of what he means.

The hon. Gentleman said that, where necessary, private interests must give way to the common need. I asked whether he included occupiers in that.

It was during the absence of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, some five minutes ago, that I dealt clearly and concisely with the way in which we propose to deal with the occupier. If he cares to come in towards the end of what was, after all, a very brief speech, I am afraid I am unable to reiterate what I said just for his benefit.

8.10 p.m.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just resumed his seat, referred to my right hon. Friend who opened the Debate from these benches as a Scottish Member. As the hon. and gallant Gentleman probably realises, he is not a Member for a Scottish constituency, but may I say that all who are Scottish Members in this House regard the right hon. Gentleman as one of whom we are extremely proud? The hon. and gallant Gentleman then asked why we dragged the little man into this Debate. Of course, the answer is obvious—because we are interested in the little man, and I hope all hon. Members in this House are interested in him. Indeed, it is right that we should be, because we have had the evidence of the hon. Member for the Drake Division of Plymouth (Mr. Medland) that no fewer than 6,000 owners are concerned in a very small area of that city. I would say to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that it is not desirable always to impute motives, particularly when they may not exist. The hon. and gallant Gentleman also said that land was the problem. Today, land is really not the problem. That has been stressed from the Front Bench of the Coalition Government by a Socialist Minister, the Secretary of State for Scotland. We know that at present in England and Wales some 700,000 sites are available, while in Scotland more than 124,000 sites are available for building.

The point of view of the Opposition has, I think, been made abundantly clear during the course of the Debate. Briefly, our position is that while we welcome the provisions of Clause 1 and the more uniform procedure which is brought into being thereby, we are extremely critical of the provisions of Clause 2. The procedure under Clause 1, and contained in the First Schedule, follows, with some modifications, the general pattern laid down in the Local Government Act, 1933. Some of these modifications we believed to be improvements, but there are other which we do not consider to be satisfactory, and with which we propose to deal when we come to the Committee stage. However, in general, I think the House agrees that the procedure laid down in the First Schedule is simple, straightforward and expeditious, while it retains, as my right hon. Friend said, a rather pleasant democratic flavour in that it provides for public notice being given and for local inquiries to be held. These we believe to be very valuable safeguards so far as the public interest is concerned. The House realises that the acquisition of land affects not only the owner of that land but a much wider public, and that is perhaps particularly true in connection with the powers which have recently been conferred on the Board of Trade in relation to the distribution of industry. In our opinion, the public ought to be aware of what land it is proposed to acquire and the purposes to which that land is to be put, and they should have an opportunity of making their views known.

I would refer to the speed of the procedure under Clause 1. I do not see that any time need be lost in the publication of notices in the local Press, or in the holding of an inquiry, or of affording to objectors an opportunity of being heard; neither need there be any delay in the confirmation of the Order. In that connection I would like to remind the House of the remarks which were made by the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) and the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke). Their evidence, it will be remembered, was that the delay occurred in the Departments, and not elsewhere. Any cause for complaint of delay really arises from the obligation that is laid upon the acquiring authority to give notice to owners, and it is said in that connection that there have been many cases of a lack of ability to trace the owner. I suggest that these cases have generally risen in urban areas and particularly in areas which are ripe for slum clearance. But today we are chiefly concerned with speed in the acquisition of land for houses and industrial purposes, and I believe that land will more usually be land which hitherto has not been built upon; which, therefore, is not in the hands of numerous owners and to which the conditions that exist in slum areas are not applicable. Therefore, in such cases there should be no difficulty in serving notice upon the owners. I do not want the House to think that I believe any delay should occur in connection with slum clearance, but there the matter does not arise with such urgency because there is much preliminary planning to be done and other work to be undertaken which should provide adequate time to trace the owners and to serve notice upon them. I think the procedure laid down in the First Schedule merits our consideration as it is in accordance with democratic principles and it is expeditious.

Perhaps I might now refer for a moment to certain matters mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health in his opening speech. He gave certain examples of where delay had occurred in the provision of sites for factories, but in no case did he tell us of the circumstances which caused that delay, nor whether that delay would actually occur under Clause 1 procedure in the Bill. I cannot see why these delays should occur, although I would point out that we are considering not what has taken place in the past but what is likely to occur under this Bill. I suggest that the Minister, perhaps was not quite fair in his presentation of these examples, and I say that with all deference. It seemed to me that he introduced into the discussion a prejudice which was unnecessary. Then the Minister referred to the powers conferred under the First Schedule, which enable a local authority to dispense with references. I do not like that provision. It may be, however, that it is necessary. I note from Clause 6, Subsection (8)—and I hope the Lord Advocate will follow me here—that the valuation roll is to be taken as the medium in Scotland. I hope there will never be any departure from that roll, nor any case of dispensing with the system of giving notice in terms of the valuation roll.

I turn to the Third Schedule to the Bill. In the first place, as I have already said, and as my right hon. Friend said in his opening speech, there is already in the hands of local authortiies sufficient land to keep all the builders in this country occupied for some years at maximum capacity. In my opinion, no case has yet been made out for the introduction of the bureaucratic and undemocratic system of procedure laid down in the Schedule. If there is a case to be made out I hope the right hon. Gentleman who is going to reply will make it out. It may be that for their immediate purposes there are some backward authorities who have insufficient land available, but for the most part this must surely exist in rural areas where the acquisition of land should not present any great difficulty.

I would like to ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman how, from his experience in Glasgow, he can honestly and truly make such a statement.

I think we had plenty of land available in Glasgow. We could have got much more land and we could have got it speedily under the Clause 1 procedure of this Bill if that procedure had been available to us. Indeed, the procedure follows very closely the procedure that we had under our Local Government Act.

What I was saying was, that this deficiency in land on the part of backward authorities will probably exist more in rural areas than elsewhere, where there should be no difficulty in acquiring land almost immediately by agreement, and without recourse to compulsion. I must say I was rather startled by what we heard from the hon. Member for Thornbury (Mr. Alpass) this afternoon. I have never before heard of such difficulty in acquiring land in rural areas. I would suggest to him that surely his authority could have gone ahead with the planning of their schools if they had used the machinery available to them.

They were Conservative-controlled authorities and did not carry out the powers.

With proper planning, and with the powers that are available, sites for these schools could have been acquired quite simply. Where compulsion is, unfortunately, necessary, it seems to me that under the procedure in the First Schedule in the majority of cases you will be able to carry through the procedure almost as quickly as under Clause 2 procedure because there will be no difficulty whatsoever in serving notice on the owners. I do not see that any case has been made out for this Clause 2 procedure. I do not consider that, if cases do come to light where that machinery might be employed, such additional speed will result as will compensate for the disadvantages that arise in the complete departure from all democratic principles.

I would ask the House to remember this—it has been alluded to already by the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing)—but the existence of Clause 2 may well lead to a lack of forethought, and to inadequate planning on the part of local authorities and encourage them to dilatoriness. For those reasons we on this side of the House, before giving a Second Reading to this Bill, will require to be satisfied that there is a real need for the procedure laid down in Clause 2, and in particular that it is necessary and essential in the interests of housing the people. Failing that, and failing an undertaking on behalf of the Government that the matter will be looked into further before the Committee stage is reached, it will be necessary for us to go into the Lobby against the Bill as a protest against the adoption of what we believe to be unnecessary and undemocratic machinery which we do not believe will assist in providing homes more expeditiously, and which we think is not in the public interest.

8.25 p.m.

It is a matter of great satisfaction to me that, on the first occasion on which I have the honour to address the House from this Box, I should do so in support of a Measure which I have advocated strongly for many years, both in the House and outside it. From the speeches which have been made from both sides of the House, I have every reason to look forward to the safe delivery of this Bill in due course on to the Statute Book. Fortunately, my task this evening is not a difficult one, because no formidable case has been put forward by the Opposition against this Measure. Indeed, there appears to be some confusion in their ranks. Different hon. and right hon. Gentlemen have taken different views of this Bill. For instance, the hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. York) and the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith), and I believe the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke), have expressed their wholehearted opposition to this Bill, though for different reasons. The hon. Members for Ripon and Hertford oppose it because it goes too far. The hon. and gallant Member for Ely opposes it because it is inadequate. I leave them to reconcile their points of view. On the other hand, the hon Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing) supports the Measure, or rather accepts it reluctantly.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison) opened the case for the Opposition with his usual charming technique. May I thank him very cordially for his kind references to myself? Not being able to oppose Clause 1 of the Bill, he damned it with faint praise. He said it was unnecessary, it was useless, that it was not urgent. Codification and unification were all very well, but why now, when we have more important Measures to get on with? The hon. Member for Ripon was not so interested in uniformity of codes. He said it was better to leave the situation as it is. The hon. Member for Hertford even regarded this Measure, as a face-saving Measure, and one which was being introduced to justify, presumably, the lack of houses. I would like to remind the House that the demand for a simplification and speeding up of the machinery for the acquisition of land is not a new one. The Uthwatt Committee, of which the right hon. Member has heard, made very strong recommendations on this subject. They recommended that it was necessary to simplify and speed up the existing machinery for the acquisition of land. They recommended that that machinery should be unified. Among their recommendations was one that there should be no public inquiry unless the appropriate Minister thought it was necessary. They recommended also that in appropriate cases there should be no referencing.

All these recommendations are being carried out in this Bill. I should have thought it would have been a matter of great satisfaction to the right hon. Member that we were implementing the Uthwatt Report in these respects. Moreover, all the associations of local authorities throughout the country made the same demand well known for the first time in history. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester, at the time when he was introducing the Town and Country Planning Act in 1944, had it urged upon him that the Bill provided for varying procedures according to the different purposes for which land was to be acquired, and they wanted one uniform procedure. They also objected to the obligation which was imposed when the Bill was originally introduced of a public inquiry in all cases. They wanted that to be discretionary. They objected also to the obligation to serve individual notices. I am glad to say that all their requirements are being met in this Bill.

There is, therefore, considerable backing, not merely by Members of the party to which I belong, but by representatives of all parties who are intimately concerned with this problem, for the carrying out of this Measure. Perhaps I ought not to omit one other demand that was made for the provision of this Bill, and that was in a document called "Let Us Face the Future," in which we said:

I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester probably put the case for Clause 1 more strongly when he referred to the 46 different Bills contained in the Schedule, which represent something like 46 different methods of acquiring land for public purposes. I think that for that reason alone this Bill is justified, but this Bill is not merely a codification and consolidation, it goes further in two respects, as my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health pointed out in introducing the Bill. It makes the holding of a public inquiry optional, and in that we are following the very excellent example provided for us in the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944. It is left to the appropriate Minister to decide whether a public inquiry should be held or not, and I will submit that Ministers on this side of the House are as much to be trusted with that discretion as Ministers on the other side. Secondly, it enables the Minister to dispense with referencing whenever he deems it ex- pedient and right to do so. There again we are carrying out the precedent contained in the Town and Country Planning Act.

The main attack on this Bill was, of course, on Clause 2. Here we had the whole fury and fire of the Opposition concentrated. What were the objections to it? First, there was the legal point raised by the right hon. Gentleman who said that it appeared from the strict wording of the Bill that the matter upon which the Minister had to be satisfied was not that there ought to be urgent entry, but urgent acquisition—

Purchase. It is a fair Committee point, and certainly, if my right hon. Friend likes to raise it in Committee, it is a matter which will receive careful and sympathetic consideration. But it does not go to the root of the Bill, and there is no doubt as to what is the intention, about which I shall say a word later. Clause 2 has also been described as undemocratic and bureaucratic, and I think one other word was used too. It was also pointed out that this Bill would fail to add one single additional house to the total at the end of two or three years, and that the shortage of land was not the real problem. I think I have dealt with the four main points made against Clause 2, and I propose to say a word about each of them, except the legal point, with which I have dealt.

Are the powers which are being sought undemocratic and bureaucratic? I do not say that this is a complete answer, but there is no power which we are seeking under Clause 2 which has not a precedent in previous Measures—[An HON. MEMBER: "In wartime."]—No. There is the Unemployment (Relief Works) Act, 1920, introduced in that Parliament which has been described as composed of "hardfaced men who have done well out of the war." They thought that this was necessary, and Clause 2 of this Bill is modelled very closely upon that Act, though in that case only seven days' notice was required and we have doubled the period, making it 14. The case that was made for the Unemployment (Relief Works) Act, 1920, was identical with the case which is being made today. The justification was the same, and so there is a precedent for it.

There is another precedent: the Housing (Temporary Accommodation) Act, 1944. That was introduced by right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and in it they sought exactly the powers which are being sought in Clause 2 of this Bill. If it was good enough for right hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they were in office, it is good enough for us. If we are undemocratic, bureaucratic and dictatorial, then they were in their time, and it is no answer to say that the Housing (Temporary Accommodation) Act was introduced in time of war. It was contemplated that it would operate in time of peace, for the provision of houses, and everybody recognised that it would not be possible to build houses on any scale during the war. Obviously, that Measure was intended to be operated during a time of peace, as this Measure is.

I deny that this Measure is undemocratic or that it is bureaucratic. I submit that every person who is affected by Clause 2 of this Measure will have the right to make representations to a responsible Minister of the Crown, and it is idle to suggest, as some hon. Members have done, that the consideration by responsible Ministers will be cursory. I think somebody said that they will just turn over the pages—and may I thank him very much for even suggesting that, because he might very well have suggested that Ministers would make their orders without even looking at the papers, and it is, at any rate, a concession to admit that the papers will be looked at. But, of course, right hon. Gentlemen who have been in office know that things are not done like that. They know that Ministers act on advice, and that, wherever they have a discretion to exercise, those are the very matters which give them the greatest concern. And that applies to any Minister, on whatever side of the House he may sit.

I can tell the House that no question gives me greater concern than appeals from decisions of local authorities where I have a personal responsibility. Of course, in any question such as the acquisition of land under this speedy procedure, every Minister concerned would give representations their most careful consideration, and would, if necessary, even take the opportunity of seeing the objector personally, giving him an opportunity of making his case personally, which is exactly the same as the procedure under Section (1) of the 1944 Town and Country Planning Act. So much for that.

Then it is suggested that this speedy procedure will not add one house to the total at the end of two or three years. That statement can only be made on the assumption that every local authority has all the land that it needs for housing and other purposes in the course of the next two years. But that is not true. It is true that in the aggregate, as my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health pointed out, local authorities have sufficient sites for their requirements for at least two years and possibly more; but some local authorities have enough for four or five years, which must mean others have not enough even for two years. In so far as this Bill will assist a single local authority to acquire land more speedily, even by one month, it is bound to increase the supply of houses over two or three years. That lack of land is not a real bottleneck; it is not a bottleneck in a great many cases. In other cases, it is a bottleneck, and it is the fact that local authorities, in many cases, have been held up and frustrated through lack of ability to acquire land speedily—and that applies not only to houses, but to other services.

Hon. Members opposite have endeavoured to pretend that this Bill is merely concerned with land for houses. That is not true. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health pointed out that land was required equally urgently for other purposes than housing. It is no good providing houses unless you can provide people with opportunities for work and shopping, and unless you provide the necessary road facilities to enable your plans to be effective; and land may be urgently required for all those purposes. I can assure the hon. and gallant Member for Penrith and Cockermouth (Lieut.-Colonel Dower) that this power will not be lightly used. It will not be the normal thing to acquire land for this purpose by the machinery of Clause 2. In the normal course Clause 1 machinery will obtain, and I am convinced that it will be only in the rare case, the most exceptional case, that Clause 2 machinery will be applied.

There has been a great deal of extravagant talk about this Clause 2 procedure. Hon. Members have talked about taking the roof from over people's heads and evicting a man and his wife and family; and there has been the usual keen interest taken in the small man and the small house. But nobody in his senses would use Clause 2 machinery or any other machinery to acquire a house compulsorily in which people were living in order to provide another house somewhere else, or to pull down or acquire speedily a factory in which people were working in order to build another factory. That is just assuming that this Measure will be operated in the most irresponsible and stupid manner, and not even my right hon. Friend opposite would suggest that we on this side of the House are stupid or irresponsible. At any rate, I can assure him that, as far as I am concerned, I will not give any approval to the acquisition of a dwelling house in which people are living under this speedy machinery except in the most exceptional circumstances I cannot at the moment foresee. Nor would this apply to a factory, and the same—

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me for one moment? His right hon. colleague gave an example, I think from Yorkshire, where 53 interested parties held up industrial development. In that case there were those 53 people who had a beneficial interest, whether in residential or business properties of some kind.

Not necessarily. They may not all have been. There were 53 persons. There may have been 53 owners or owner-occupiers, mortgagees, lessees, and so on. There may have been 53 of them in the aggregate. I do not know the case, but I should be astonished to hear that it was the case that there were even a dozen factories operating. I cannot conceive that any Department in their senses would seek to acquire compulsorily a piece of land where a number of factories were carrying on business, for the purpose of building a factory. My right hon. Friend will, possibly, explain what were the particular circumstances. My view would be that they were people owning land, and possibly there was a certain amount of agriculture on that land. But I should like to point out that, in no case, would a responsible Minister dream of making an order except after consultation with his colleagues. The President of the Board of Trade would consult the Minister of Health, the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Town and Country Planning; and the Minister of Town and Country Planning would consult every Department for its views as to the advisibility of approving any compulsory purchase.

The right hon. Gentleman is getting to the root of the opposition to the Bill, and I should like to know whether he would be prepared to issue a circular to see that this speedy procedure need not be used for the purpose of acquiring dwelling houses, except in the most exceptional cases.

That is obvious from the wording of the Clause, which is bound to be accepted, and no Minister doing his duty could comply with the terms of this Clause except in exceptional circumstances. My hon. and gallant Friend, if he has the good fortune to go on to the Committee, can quite properly put that point and suggest that regulations might be issued. But he will bear in mind that the last word is with the confirming authority, and I am relying on the responsibility of the confirming authority for ensuring that nothing will be done which will be harmful to large sections of the community, and that this speedy procedure will be exercised with the greatest possible care.

Hon. Members opposite talk about this being punitive, or being an expression of the hate of Members on this side for the land-owning community, and so on. Of course, nothing is further from the truth. This Clause 2 is being introduced merely on account of the necessities and urgency of the case, and I submit that there are adequate safeguards in the Bill against any irresponsible action. It is open to hon. Members opposite, if they feel that additional safeguards are necessary, to put them forward on the Committee stage. But that is not a reason for refusing to accept the principle. I recognise that hon. Members opposite would not like this provision. They never have liked provisions making the acquisition of land easier. They have always opposed them, and I imagine they always will.

In the course of my speech I asked about the reason for supplying this very dangerous high speed machinery to certain authorities and whether in doing so we were not inviting their taking additional action at an earlier stage.

I thought that all my remarks were directed to dealing with that particular point when I talked about safeguards and the confirming authority. Hon. Members must not imagine that local authorities are being given this power and can exercise it without any approval whatever. The dangerous machinery, if my hon. Friend likes to put it that way, is placed in the hands of the local authorities, but it is being very carefully controlled by the controlling authorities. My hon. Friend may not like my answer, but that is the answer.

I was asked a question by the hon. Member for Ripon and by the hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle) as to the need of action for local authorities to acquire land outside their area. These provisions will apply. Of course, it will be open to local authorities to make application for a compulsory purchase order and speedy machinery in respect of land outside their areas as well as land inside their areas, and it will be a matter for the confirming authority to say whether the conditions laid down in the Bill are complied with. There will be many occasions when the local authority will need to go for its land outside its area because there will be no available land inside, and that will be a matter which the controlling authority will have to take into careful account. The hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Horabin) made what I regard as a very able speech, with much of which I cordially agree. This Bill alone, of course, is no solution to the land problem, and no one pretends that it is. It is merely putting existing powers to the best possible advantage.

I also agree with him that nationalisation is the final and best solution, but we are not considering that today. I hope that I shall receive from him a consideraable measure of satisfaction when the Compensation and Betterment Bill comes before this House. It may not go all the way he wants, hut I have every hope that it will go some of the way. At any rate, he will agree that this Bill is a very considerable improvement on the present position. The hon. Member for West Woolwich (Mr. Berry) was very much concerned about statutory undertakers and about allotments. If he examines the Bill, I think that he will find that it is only possible to acquire land belonging to statutory undertakers by the use of special procedure which involves getting Parliamentary sanction, and he can be assured that no sanction will be given without the most careful consideration. As to allotments, the position is that either an equivalent amount of land must be provided in exchange, or, if that is not done, the special procedure will be applied.

Has the right hon. Gentleman not in mind fuel allotments and not the general run of allotments? Fuel allotments are referred to in the Bill, but not the general run of allotments.

That is a matter to be thrashed out. A good deal depends on where the allotment is. If an allotment were on a railway siding, of course, it would not be an allotment. The hon. Member for Drake (Mr. Medland) asked me a number of questions to most of which he will get an answer on the Committee stage. There is one, however, which I think I might answer now. He wants to know if the speedy procedure under Clause 2 is used in respect of land which forms part of a designated area under Section (1) of the Town and Country Planning Act, and whether the subsidy provisions of that Act will be affected? The answer is "No." The hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Somerville Hastings) and also the hon. Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Skeffington) pointed out that this Bill, as it stands, still leaves open the long and cumbersome procedure for extinguishing rights of way of land from easements, except in the case of land acquired for the purposes of the Housing Act or the Town and Country Planning Act, and they suggest that the principle of extinguishing rights of land should be applied to other purposes. That is a matter which will be looked at before the Committee stage, and if the Bill requires modification, an Amendment will be introduced for that purpose. The hon. and gallant Member for West Dorset (Major Digby) complained of the fact that planning is not mentioned in this Bill. It is true that planning is mentioned in the context of the Town and Country Planning Act, but I admit that the word planning" as such, is not used in this Bill, but that does not mean that planning considerations will not be taken into account. I can say today that no authority is given for the acquisition of any land for public purposes without the Ministry of Town and Country Planning having a say, and their say will be based upon town planning considerations.

I regard this Bill as one which will considerably facilitate planning measures, particularly in connection with positive planning. As the House will appreciate, planning consists not merely in preventing people from doing things, but also of ensuring that the right things are done. As the Minister of Health pointed out, you cannot build the right kind of buildings without land, and, inasmuch as this Measure facilitates the acquisition of land, it does, in fact, facilitate positive planning. I was asked a question by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies). He wants to know what would be the position if an authority in his constituency, which owns 70 acres of common land, wanted to build on it. The answer is that they would either have to provide equivalent land elsewhere in the same area or they would have to go through the special procedure which involves the approval of Parliament. I hope that Parliament would look very jealously at using up 70 acres of common land, particularly as, in this case, the authority appears to own no other land.

That was not my point. The point I put was whether the local authority could apply compulsory powers under this Measure to acquire, say, 10 or 20 acres of land in exchange for a similar parcel of common land.

The hon. Member put two questions. I hope that he is not complaining; I am trying to answer both. I have answered the first one, and I am now coming to the second. The answer is "Yes," there would be power to acquire the 10 acres for the purpose of exchange.

The hon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) made some observations about Epping Forest. She regarded the acquisition of a certain amount of land as a pity. I must confess I have a considerable amount of sympathy with her. Epping Forest was a playground of my childhood, and so I have a soft spot in my heart for it. I deeply regret that, as Minister of Town and Country Planning, I must accept some responsibility for the acquisition of this land, but I have a duty to perform under the Housing (Temporary Accommodation) Act of 1945. Where I am satisfied that only by taking a certain amount of open space can housing be provided for certain sections of the community, I am required to permit the appropriation of that land for housing purposes. I have no choice if I am satisfied that that is the case, and in this particular instance, the Minister of Health and I went carefully into the matter to see if we could possibly say no. We were most reluctantly compelled to decide that if we did not agree to this 800 families would be homeless.

May I ask the Minister, would it not be possible under Clause 2 of the Bill now before the House to take powers to rehouse these people in a satellite town such as Edmonton, and other areas in that part of London? Why could this rehousing not be part of a satellite town?

The answer is that there are no satellite towns and it would take a very long time to create them. In the meantime, these 800 families will be homeless. My hon. Friend may criticise, but I think she should know that the powers conferred upon my Ministry have been exercised with the greatest possible care, and in this case with the greatest reluctance Further, I do not think she could suggest otherwise. She also asked would this Bill affect the provision of land for a green belt. The answer is yes, this Bill will facilitate the acquisition of land for that purpose. She further asked about land which is being occupied at present by Service Departments. I think she used some uncomplimentary terms about them which I regret. I am happy to be able to say that machinery has now been created as a result of which there will be consultation between the Service Departments and my Ministry. We will have a considerable but not dominating voice in these affairs and such voice as my Ministry has will be directed towards securing the earliest possible release of such land after Service requirements have been met. I can assure the hon. Lady that every effort will be made, as indeed is the wish of the Service Departments, to get the land released as quickly as possible.

Before the Minister leaves this point, does he mean to imply that land for Green Belt purposes will be acquired under Clause 2 of the Bill?

I certainly do not mean to imply that would be the normal case, and I cannot conceive that it would even be applied in exceptional cases. I said this Bill does facilitate the acquisition of land for Green Belt purposes.

Naturally. In view of all I have said I am surprised that my hon. and gallant Friend should put that question. My hon. Friend the Member for West Lewisham wished me to give advice to local authorities as to whether they should wait until this Bill became law before going ahead acquiring land for housing purposes, or whether they should go ahead in the meantime. The answer must be that they should go ahead at once. This Bill must afford no pretext for delay. It is just possible, though not probable, that this Bill may not become law. There are the Committee stage, the Report stage and the Third Reading, while it has also to be considered in another place. In the meantime, local authorities must go forward with the utmost vigour and energy as if this Bill were not on the Statute Book. The hon. Member asked whether some transitional arrangement could be made with regard to the application of the expedited machinery. I am sure that is a point to which the Minister of Health will give consideration to see if something can be done. The hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks) asked why the provisions and terms of the Town and Country Planning Act of 1944 are excluded from this Bill. The answer is that the provisions of that Act are more appropriate to the acquisition of large scale areas, which is contemplated under town and country planning arrangements. The procedure in this Bill is more properly concerned with the acquisition of land in small areas.

I gather that the course of action which hon. Members opposite will take depends upon my speech and I recognise the very grave responsibility which rests upon me. I hope I have been able to satisfy hon. Members. They wanted assurances and I have gone as far as it is possible to go. I hope that they will find this satisfactory because I should like this Measure to go forward with the general agreement of the whole House as a recognition both of the gravity and the urgency of our problem of reconstruction. Every Member of this House is concerned to secure that the large numbers of members of our community who have suffered during the war, who have had their homes destroyed and their lives dislocated, should be enabled to return to normal life as rapidly as possible. That involves not merely the provision of homes, but of places of work, places of recreation, places for shopping and means of communication. All those various communal activities will be facilitated by the provisions of this Bill. I hope that hon. Members opposite will feel that they are fully safeguarded against any abuse of the powers provided under Clause 2. I believe that this Bill is a big step towards the realisation of the objectives which every Member of this House has at heart, and it would be of great encouragement to all concerned if we could get complete agreement on the principles it contains. I have no hesitation whatever in commending it to the favourable consideration of the House, and I hope it will not be long before it is placed up the Statute Book.

The main tenor of the latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's argument was that the confirming authority is a sufficient and satisfactory safeguard, but can he give us an assurance that his machinery is big enough to take care of all those matters which will come before it, not only in this Bill but in other Bills? Is his machine big enough to give due and proper consideration to all these questions—they are really appeals—which may come before the confirming authority?

Of course, adequate machinery will be created for the proper implementation of the powers that are conferred, and I would say that when speaking of the confirming authority we are speaking of Ministers of the Crown who are answerable to this House, and who may be interrogated and criticised for their use of the powers confered upon them.

Question put, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

The House divided: Ayes, 241; Noes, 98.

Division No. 72.]

AYES.

[9.12 p.m

Adams, Capt. Richard (Balham)

Grenfell, D. R.

Peart, Capt. T. F.

Adamson, Mrs. J. L.

Grey, C. F.

Perrins, W.

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Grierson, E.

Piratin, P.

Alpass, J. H.

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Popplewell, E.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Guy, W. H.

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Austin, H. L.

Haire, Fit.-Lieut. J. (Wycombe)

Pritt, D. N.

Ayles, W. H.

Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley)

Proctor, W. T.

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

Pursey, Cmdr. H.

Bacon, Miss A.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Randall, H. E

Balfour, A.

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Ranger, J.

Barstow, P. G

Haworth, J.

Rees-Williams, Lt.-Col. D. R

Barton, C.

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Belcher, J. W.

Hicks, G.

Robens, A.

Berry, H.

Hobson, C. R.

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Beswick, Fit.-Lieut. F.

Holman, P.

Royle, C.

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Horabin, T L

Sargood, R.

Bing, Capt. G. H. C.

House, G

Scott-Elliot, W.

Binns, J.

Hoy, J.

Segal, Sq.-Ldr. S.

Blyton, W. R.

Hubbard, T.

Sharp, Lt.-Col. G. M.

Boardman, H.

Hudson, J. H (Ealing, W.)

Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Hughes, Lt. H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'p'l, Exch'ge)

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Irving, W. J.

Simmons, C. J.

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Janner, B.

Skeffington, A. M.

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Jeger, Capt. G. (Winchester)

Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Jeger, Dr. S W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

Skinnard, F. W.

Buchanan, G.

Jones, A C. (Shipley)

Smith, Capt. C. (Colchester)

Burden, T. W.

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

Burke, W. A.

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Keenan, W.

Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Key, C. W.

Snow, Capt. J. W.

Chamberlain, R. A

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E

Sparks, J. A.

Champion, A. J.

Kinley, J.

Stamford, W.

Chetwynd, Capt. G. R.

Lavers, S.

Steele, T.

Cluse, W. S.

Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)

Cobb, F. A.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Stress, Dr. B.

Cocks, F. S

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Swingler, Capt. S.

Coldrick, W.

Levy, B. W.

Symonds, Maj. A. L.

Collick, P.

Lindgren, G. S.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Collindridge, F.

Lipson, D. L.

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Colman, Miss G. M

Longden, F.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Comyns, Dr. L.

Lyne, A. W.

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G

McAdam, W.

Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)

Corlett, Dr. J

McAllister, G.

Thorneycroft, H

Corvedale, Viscount

McEntee, V. La T.

Tolley, L.

Cove, W. G.

McGhee, H. G

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.

Daines, P.

Mack, J. D.

Turner-Samuels, M.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

McLeavy, F.

Usborne, Henry

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

Macpherson, T. (Romford)

Vernon, Maj. W. F

Davies, R. J (Westhoughton)

Mallalieu, J. P. W.

Viant, S. P.

Deer, G.

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Walkden, E

Delargy, Captain H. J

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Walker, G. H.

Diamond, J.

Mathers, G.

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Dodds, N. N.

Mayhew, C. P.

Warbey, W. N.

Douglas, F. C. R.

Medland, H. M.

Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Middleton, Mrs. L

Weitzman, D.

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Mikardo, Ian

Wells, W. T (Walsall)

Dumpleton, C. W

Mitchison, Maj. G. R.

Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

Dye, S.

Monslow, W.

White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Edelman, M.

Morley, R.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

Wilkes, Maj. L.

Ewart, R.

Murray, J. D.

Wilkins, W. A

Fairhurst, F.

Nally, W.

Willey, F. T (Sunderland)

Fletcher, E. G M. (Islington, E.)

Naylor, T. E.

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Follick, M.

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Foot, M. M.

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Foster, W. (Wigan)

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Willis, E.

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Wilson, J. H.

Gaitskell, H. T. N.

Oldheld, W. H.

Woodburn, A.

Gallacher, W.

Oliver, G. H.

Woods, G. S.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Orbach, M.

Yates, V. F.

George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Gibson, C. W.

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Palmer, A. M. F.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES

Gooch, E. G.

Parkin, Fit.-Lieut. B. T.

Mr. Pearson and Capt. Blenkinsop

Goodrich, H. E.

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Gordon-Walker, P. C

Paton, J. (Norwich)

NOES.

Aitken, Hon. M.

Glossop, C. W. H.

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.

Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

Gomme-Duncan, Col A. G.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

Beamish, Maj. T V. H

Grimston, R. V.

Raikes, H. V.

Bennett, Sir P.

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Birch, Lt.-Col. Nigel

Hare, Lieut.-Col. Hn. J. H. (W'dbr'ge)

Renton, D.

Bower, N.

Head, Brig. A. H.

Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)

Boyd-Carpenter, Maj. J. A.

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

Ropner, Col. L.

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

Hollis, Sqn.-Ldr. M. C.

Ross, Sir R.

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Hope, Lord J

Shepherd, Lieut. W. S. (Bucklow)

Bullock, Capt. M.

Howard, Hon. A.

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

Carson, E.

Hutchison, Lt.-Col. J. R. (G'gow, C.)

Spearman, A. C. M.

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Lambert, G.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Stoddart-Scott. Col. M

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Langford-Holt, J.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J.

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Studholme, H. G.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Teeling, William

Cuthbert, W. N.

Lindsay, Lt.-Col. M. (Solihull)

Thomas, J. P L. (Hereford)

Darling, Sir W. Y.

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N

Davidson, Viscountess

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F.

Digby, Maj. S. W.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Touche, G. C

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Mackeson, Lt.-Col. H R.

Vane, Lieut.-Col. W. M. T

Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

Macmillan, Rt.-Hon. Harold

Walker-Smith, D.

Dower, E. L G. (Caithness)

Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Drayson, Capt. G. B.

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Wheatley, M. J.

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T (Richmond)

Marsden, Capt. A.

White, J. B. (Canterbury)

Duthie, W. S

Marshall, Comdr. D. (Bodmin)

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Eccles, D. M.

Maude, J. C.

Willink, Rt. Hon. H. U.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Mellor, Sir J.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Erroll, Col. F. J.

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

York, C.

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Morrison, Rt. Hn. W. S. (Cirencester)

Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

Fox, Sqn.-Ldr. Sir G.

Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.

Gage, Lt.-Col. C.

Neven-Spence, Major Sir B.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES

Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D

Nield, B. (Chester)

Mr. Drewe and Commander Agnew

Gates, Maj. E. E.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M

Bill accordingly read a Second time and committed to a Standing Committee

Coal Industry Nationalisation [Money]

Resolution reported:

"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to establish public ownership and control of the coal-mining industry and certain allied activities (in this Resolution referred to as 'the Act'), it is expedient to give the following authorisations, that is to say:

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

9.22 p.m.

Are we to have a statement from the Government Front Bench?

I am at a loss to understand what the right hon. and gallant Gentleman means.

Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman call for a repetition of the proceedings of last night and this morning? I should have thought that he had had enough. If he wants me to tell, him a few bedtime stories, and thus put the Opposition completely to sleep, that is another matter. But there is nothing to say that would really interest hon. Members opposite. If, however, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has any observations to make that are intelligent and reasonable and perhaps persuasive—one never can tell—I am quite willing to listen to them.

It is very nice to hear the right hon. Gentleman in this bantering mood, but it is hardly treating the House with respect. Last night, in accordance with our normal procedure—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—the Money Resolution to this extremely important Bill was taken in Committee. The House, as such, is not cognisant of what took place last night. The House is one thing, the Committee is another. It is quite true that the membership is somewhat the same, with the distinguished exception, Mr. Speaker, of yourself. You, at any rate, have no idea of what took place last night. I must say that I protest against the right hon. Gentleman coming down and saying on a Measure of this tremendous importance, that he would like to tell us bedtime stories. For his information, I may tell him if it is of interest to him, that I do not normally go to bed at 9.25, and even if I did, it certainly would not be the case today because, unfortunately, owing to the way the Government handled their business, Members of the Committee who were here yesterday were in attendance somewhat later than the normal time. However, that does not detract from the fact that it is the Government's responsibility, if they are to introduce major legislate on in the course of this Parliament, to explain it adequately at every step, on which Members of this House are entitled to receive explanations.

While it is true that the Report stage of a Money Resolution usually goes through without any great discussion, that is because, on normal occasions, the Ministers responsible have, at the end of the Committee stage, answered all the questions which have been put to them by the Opposition. If, however, they choose not to answer the questions, it is not unusual for those questions to be repeated, as may be done within the terms of Order, and an attempt made to secure the replies which may be considered desirable. It may well be that some of my hon. Friends will want to put further points—and they will do so—but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman, if he really wants to get on to bedtime stories, that it is certainly not our intention to delay matters this evening in any sense. We have no wish to keep the House late, but if on this occasion we do not probe all these matters to the nth degree, he must not take it as a precedent or an indication that on future occasions, if we are treated in this cavalier manner, we shall not find it necessary to go into these matters at much greater length. However, it is not our intention to do so tonight. The fact remains, however, that once we pass this Resolution tonight, all the limits which are involved in a Money Resolution will be inhibitions upon us throughout the remaining Debates on this Bill; that what is set down in the Money Resolution, and accepted on Report tonight, will govern our Debates in Committee. We shall not be able to move Amendments which go beyond the financial scope of this Resolution, and it is for that reason that I would like to reiterate, and to try to get once more on the record, whether the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied that he is right in what he told us about the compensation for some of the professional and technical people who are today in the mining industry. Not all of my hon. Friends were satisfied with what the right hon. Gentleman said yesterday.

9.30 p.m.

It is a fact that there are a great number of technical professional men of the managerial class employed in various posts in the industry. The right hon. Gentleman said last night, in reply to our criticism, that things being what they were, it was very likely that many of those now employed in that capacity would be employed in the future, because there was a shortage of just those technical men. I think that is possibly true, but there may be the exceptional case, the man whose services, for some reason or other, will not be required. We think that the position of such men should be amply safeguarded in the Money Resolution. But they are not mentioned in it. The right hon. Gentleman said that as a matter of fact it would be the responsibility of the Board and that the Board's finances in this regard did not necessarily come within the scope or ambit of the Money Resolution. That may be the case, but in practically every Clause of the Bill either the Minister does something with the approval of the Treasury, or the Treasury does something with or without the approval of the Minister. We think it would be better to safeguard these people, and I am sure that all hon. Members who know the industry would wish that section, as all other sections who may be dispossessed as a result of this legislation, to be safeguarded. We had hoped that the Minister would be more definite and forthcoming in that regard and would amplify the Money Resolution in order to make quite certain that this point would be dealt with. However, there may be Amendments to strengthen that position during the Committee Stage and to bring it more into line with legislation on similar problems such as the Act dealing with London passenger transport. If the Minister will look kindly at such Amendments, I think that will probably satisfy some of my hon. Friends, but, even so, we would prefer to see it embedded in the Money Resolution and the responsibility placed, not on the Board, but on the State which, after all, will be the owner.

What we are doing tonight will have some measure of publicity, whereas our activities in Committee, owing to the present shortage of paper, will have very little publicity. We should remind ourselves and the country of what is inherent in the Money Resolution if we pass it, that the Government have come to some agreement with the Mining Association, on the terms of reference of what the global figure should be for compensation in this great industry, now passing out of private hands into those of the State. In the Resolution, effect is given, in anticipation, to any decision of a tribunal the constitution of which is not before the House, and never will be before the House. We shall be discussing the Bill upstairs as we have done on Second Reading, without having the slightest idea of what the cost is going to be. I think that is a very dangerous, difficult and almost wicked course for the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues to adopt. It may be, that one must have a tribunal to find a figure. I do not know. It is quite a reasonable assumption and it has been done on other occasions, but none of us know what the figure is to be. We are responsible to all the taxpayers of the country who are to be the owners of this industry. Suppose the tribunal assesses the global figure so high that, faced with it, the taxpayers will say the industry is not worth buying at that price. Or suppose, on the other hand, that in a moment of mental aberration, they put the figure so low that all of us—

I know the Communist Party is never worried about anything. If I were the Communist Party, I should be worried about not having enough room to sit on. As I was about to say, the figure might be so low that even the right hon. Gentleman might recoil from the thought of buying this great property so cheaply. Yet it would not be competent for the House to deal with the matter. Indeed, the House might well have parted with the Bill, the Committee stage might be over before the decision had been reached on the price to be paid for this great industry. I do think that to embed that principle in this Money Resolution is very blameworthy. That is why, last night, we tried to get those words removed from the Resolution, so that at least the Committee could have discussed the matter. Well, the Committee of the Whole House was against us. We have not tonight troubled the House by putting down another Amendment. In fact, I do not think we have really had the opportunity because there is a reluctance on the part of the Chair to accept manuscript Amendments at this stage. All we can do is to express and emphasise our protest at the way in which the Government have handled that particular aspect of the problem.

We hope, however, that having made that protest we shall be able, when we come to the Committee stage, amicably to discuss a great number of these points which arise in the Bill. We shall do our best, as far as is in our power, to see that all the major points are discussed. This is an important Bill, and we do want to see that everything of importance is properly debated. Tonight, we are limited to the Report stage of this Money Resolution and on that, as on every other part of the Bill which raises the principle inherent in these matters, we shall divide the House as a protest, not only against the way the Government are rushing us in these proceedings, but because we think what the Government are trying to do is bad, wrong and injurious to the public interests.

The speech of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman left me in some doubt when he said I was not entitled to know about the Committee stage. I think his first point was a matter of payment by the Board in the way of compensation for individuals. That, of course, is outside the Money Resolution and debate on that now would be, I am afraid, out of Order. The second point, of course, was perfectly sound.

I apologise if I was out of Order, Mr. Speaker, but I was giving briefly the reasons why we were against the Resolution.

I quite understand but thought that I should inform the House that discussion on that now would be out of Order.

I can undertake not to detain the hon. Members for more than two or three minutes—[ Interruption ]—but other hon. Members can keep them as long as they wish. I want to ask a question which I was unable to put yesterday about the figure of £150,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman helped us in this respect, when he told us that £30,000,000 would be needed as working capital. I think that is quite a reasonable estimate, and I would not have been surprised if it had been a little more. That estimate leaves £120,000,000 to be accounted for. The right hon. Gentleman threw out some hints about shaft sinking, and renewals and haulage—work which we know very well is needed underground and, maybe, on the surface as well, in connection with new developments. I took my pencil and did a few calculations, the result of which is that I wish to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman. Suppose out of the £120,000,000, he was able to spend £40,000,000 on machinery and manufactured goods purchased from industry. He will have £80,000,000 left. If he pays £8 per week to 40,000 men, that will take £16,000,000 a year, which happens to be one-fifth of the £80,000,000. Therefore, in my calculations, the right hon. Gentleman is budgeting for 40,000 men a year for the next five years on development work. I want to ask him if he is satisfied that the labour force in the mining industry will allow him to divert 40,000 men a year from coal getting to development, and, if not, will he let us know on what basis he justifies this figure of £150,000,000?

I do not want to keep the House for any length of time or to bore the Minister, but I would like to put one or two points which I did not get the opportunity to bring up yesterday, and which I believe were not covered. I am not, unfortunately, a mineowner, or a miners' representative or even a shareholder; I speak merely as an ordinary Member of Parliament, and I feel that, more and more, ordinary Members of Parliament will have to take part in these discussions. What I want to know, first, is what is going to be done about the really small mineowner—the people who employ about 30 people. I may be wrong in this, but I think those employing under 30 are going to be more or less all right. What about those with slightly over 30 employees, say, up to 35 men? They are a very small proportion of the industry and, I believe, provide only about 5 per cent. of the coal in the country, but they are scattered all over, and are, in many cases, one-man companies. Those concerned are sometimes quite elderly people. When they are paid off, they will not be able to start again. They cannot start afresh in life. Will the Minister tell us what he is going to do with them, and what are his plans and his ideas about them? Probably, everybody knows the position of these men. They are doing very good work in different parts of the country, and particularly in isolated places which do not appeal to the ordinary concerns as attractive propositions. If they employ under 30 men, I believe, they escape, but if they are just over 30, what are the Government going to do about them? They are small men, who invested their money in this industry and who are really the smallholders—the people whom we on this side of the House try to help although we only get laughed at by the Government for doing it. What is the right hon. Gentleman going to do for them? They spent a good deal of money in putting in machinery for their undertaking.

That brings me to my second point. I am not at all happy about what is going to happen with regard to machinery and the purchase of machinery for the next few months and at the beginning of the new era. I understand that, in certain mines which I have visited myself, there is a need for machines from the United States, or for the very latest and most up to date machines. We are told that we must not spend money in the United States and elsewhere, but must try to copy machines from the United States and make them in this country; but the machines we have in this country are something like three to five years out of date. I know of pits in Cumberland where a good deal of machinery is badly wanted, but we have to copy machines made in 1939 and 1940 in America, where they have already scrapped them and started on new ones. In France, Belgium and other countries, which will compete with us in the near future, they are enabled to buy new machines from the United States. I should like to have some kind of assurance that the Minister is lot going to be held up by the Board of Trade but that he will be able to purchase the most up to date and modern machinery from the United States.

I think I would be in Order to turn for just one moment to other matters. No doubt the Minister has thought of what I am going to discuss in relation to other countries before making his plans. France last year decided to nationalise the coalmines but they only nationalised one of them in the Pas de Calais. There are four big basins with mines in the Nord and Pas de Calais, in the Moselle, in the Centre and in the Midi. They have not touched the Centre and the Moselle. They have decided to nationalise mines in the Midi, and gone so far as to requisition and prepare them. At the present time mines in the Midi are not being nationalised ort account of the financial trouble that the Government are having in the Nord and Pas de Calais because they cannot compensate the owners. Everything seems to be getting into a complete muddle and mess with regard to the financial arrangements, and the lack of success has stopped them in the last two months from doing anything about those other mines, quite famous mines, which every one knows about abroad as I hope we do at home. The only way that the Nord and the Pas de Calais are able to carry on at the moment, is by the use of German prisoners. Can the Minister tell us—no doubt he must know this—how the prisoners who axe working in the French mines are being paid for at the present time. Has he any ideas with regard to the problems that are going to develop in our own mines. Who is to pay if we cannot get miners? I believe the Minister needs 100,000. Is there a chance of taking German prisoners and letting the Bevin boys, who do not want to be there, go home?

I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, if I have gone a little too far. But there is a financial side to it and may I make one last point? It may have been raised already but I have not had time to read the report of everything that has gone on in the last two days. It is with regard to the financial payment for the housing of the engineers and the people in the mines, people who are working there at the present time. As you know, Sir, most companies give their managers and higher paid officials a house free of tax. Cannot the Minister tell us whether anything is going to be done about that with regard to the people who are now working, and, who are in future going to take over and work the mines? It will mean quite a lot if they do not get their houses tax free. Also what is to be done with regard to the houses which belong to the mines and in which the miners have to live at the present time, and—

That does not come on the taxpayer, and accordingly, by my Ruling, that is outside the present discussion.

With due respect, Mr. Speaker, I have said all that I want to say, if the Minister will answer those points which you say are in Order.

I want to put to the Minister one point with regard to the financial arrangements, which will affect the taxpayers very deeply. It is the question of the cost of transport, which for the last 100 years has been arranged in a manner very beneficial to the industry. Coal is carried as cheaply as any commodity on the railways by the direction of an Act of Parliament. Indeed other industries have sometimes considered that the coalmines have been subsidised to that extent. We all naturally hope that there will be no difficulty whatever in making the coalmines pay; but it would be most valuable, I suggest, if the Minister could now give us an assurance that neither he nor his Department will at any time be tempted to increase the indirect subsidy to the coalmines, by making the cost of carriage of coal even cheaper than it has always been and the cost of carriage of other commodities still higher.

This is not a matter for the taxpayers, but a matter for arrangement between the colliery companies and the railways. It will not be paid for by the taxpayers, and therefore it is outside the Money Resolution.

I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. I realise that the argument, until it was fully developed, was open to that justified criticism. The point that arises is that before long, if the Government's programme is carried through with this haste with which it is being carried through, the freight charges of the railways will be very much a matter for the taxpayers. Unless notice is taken of this point now, there will be difficulty in future.

I hope I shall succeed in keeping within the bounds of Order and within the limits imposed by the patience of the House. I wish to ask the Minister whether he is being granted enough money in respect of one very important sphere of activity, namely, research. We must concern ourselves not only with the more efficient production of coal, but with the more efficient utilisation of that mineral. I suggest that if we could save 50,000,000 tons of coal a year, we would not be in such desperate straits as we are now. That is a matter to which some attention might be given in the future. The second matter to which I wish to refer is the Consumers Councils, the entire salaries and costs of which are to be borne by the taxpayers. I feel that if the taxpayers are to pay for the Consumers Councils which are to advise the Minister, the public is entitled to know the advice which those Councils give to the Minister. The taxpayers are paying for the men; therefore, let them have the advice in return. While on that question, I hope that one or other of the Consumers Councils—it has not been clearly decided which—will advise on the very difficult and complicated problem of coal exports. It would be of great help if the Minister, in his reply, would refer briefly to the sources from which he will get advice on the export market for coal.

The third point I want to raise is the £150,000,000. Again, I suggest that maybe we are not granting the Minister enough money. The uses to which this money can be put are so wide and so vaguely defined that we really do not know for what purposes the Minister is going to use it. Why not carry out all new development work with the aid of the £150,000,000?—in which case it is not nearly enough. I suggest that we ought to have a clearer definition in the Bill, or in the Money Resolution, of the purposes for which the £150,000,000 is to be used. It should be clearly laid down in a statutory provision what items are chargeable to revenue account and the Board and what items are chargeable to capital account, and whether the capital account items are to be met out of the £150,000,000. At the moment, we do not know where we are. [ Interruption. ] It seems that hon. Members opposite are also aware that they do not know where they are. I suggest that either we should vote £150,000,000 and not worry about what we voted for, or that we should vote for a very much larger sum for the Minister to spend as he likes.

I was hoping that before this Debate concluded—and we certainly do not wish to make it unduly long—the House would have had the advantage, either of an intervention by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who always gives us such valuable help on these difficult matters, or of having the luminous mind of the Parliamentary Secretary directed upon these difficult and dark problems. But, as usual, the answer of this Government, like that of Napoleon's brother is, " Monsieur, Non, non," to any question. No replies—dumb taciturnity and reliance upon the great massed battalions. I am surprised and disappointed that the Committee thought fit to report this Resolution to the House in the form in which it was done. You, Mr. Speaker, had not the advantage of being present at our Debate, but I would remind you that your predecessor, one of the greatest Speakers who ever held the Chair, animadverted very strongly against the practice by Government Departments of drawing Financial Resolutions in a form, the object of which was to prevent debate in Committee. That is the sole object of drawing this Financial Resolution in this form. It would have been perfectly easy to draw the Resolution in a form which would have enabled the money to be voted in and out of the Treasury and would have made all the provisions for payments to and from the Treasury, without drawing these precise details, which have only one object—to prevent fair debate in the Committee stage. I frankly admit that Governments of all parties have done this during the last 20 years. If reference were made to the Debates that took place on similar occasions, and to the Rulings and advice which Mr. Speaker Fitzroy gave to the House, it would be seen how strongly he felt that such procedure was contrary to the rules and traditions of our Parliamentary system. [ Interruption. ] I should like to have the advantage of speaking without interrupting the very agreeable conversations which no doubt have to go on between the Financial Secretary and the Minister. No doubt they will have a lot to discuss together before this Bill is through. I am quite certain that the only person who will obstruct this Bill is the Minister himself, who will talk on everything possible. There is no bait to which he does not rise, and I look forward to dropping the sinker gently into the river on future occasions. If there is any Guillotine-Motion to be moved on this Bill, it will be a Guillotine upon the right hon. Gentleman himself.

Before we part with the Resolution I would like to record, again, what is a very important point. Ministers have very great powers; they can carry this Bill through all its stages. I regret that at none of its stages has the Leader of the House thought fit to be present. In the old days, the Prime Minister used to lead the House. Then it was said that the work of the Prime Minister was too great, that he could not always be in the House, and that there should be a special gentleman to lead the House. The right hon. Gentleman the Lord President has not attended much of the Second Reading of the Bill, the Committee stage or the Report stage. I suppose he is very much engaged with the proceedings of that other organisation.

10 p.m.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Was that observation within the rules of Parliamentary procedure?

The right hon. Gentleman attends the House when he wishes to speak in it, but never when we wish him to listen. As I say, we have never had the advantage of his guidance—

The Leader of the House of Commons is just the person to advise us on these difficult and delicate matters of the relation between the Committee and the Report stages, and the problem of this Financial Resolution. The problem which is presented is this—and I will not press it beyond this point. You have drawn the Resolution in such a way as to preclude debate in Committee in every way possible. You have tried to tie it up in every way you can. Why do you do it?

I should have said that Ministers have 'drawn this Resolution in such a way as to preclude debate. Ministers have attempted to tie up the Committee in every way they can. I do not see their purpose. They have this great majority. This Bill will be carried, of course. We may even hope, in the course of the Debate, to get the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us something about the Bill, but I doubt it. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman opposite that we have not the slightest intention of obstructing, except for the purpose of putting forward, as we have a right and a duty to do, the important points which should be debated. We do not wish to obstruct in the old sense of the word, but we do protest and we wish to register our protest, as we have a right to do, and as all minorities in this country have—until we get the complete Commissar in control over us We register our protest against the terms being so drawn that Ministers will be able to evade answering in Committee all the questions which they have evaded answering on the Second Reading of this Bill.

May I call your attention, Mr. Speaker, to Standing Order 46, by which I understand a right hon. Member or an hon. Member can only address the House twice on the Report stage by permission of the House? May I submit to you the awkward position in which we Members of the Opposition find ourselves in this respect? It is quite true that it is unusual to object to a Minister speaking twice, although I understand that if even one Member of the House objects, that Minister cannot exercise his right. But I submit it is most unusual, when there is a Parliamentary Secretary as well as a Minister in charge of a Bill, for the Parliamentary Secretary not to speak in reply to a Debate. I, therefore, ask you, Mr. Speaker, in those circumstances whether the right hon. Gentleman can speak twice.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) was asked if he would open the Debate, and he said "No" Therefore, he is entitled now to answer the Debate.

That is not my point of Order. It cannot be denied the right hon. Gentleman has already addressed the House; certainly he made a speech on the subject. He has already spoken twice. He first rose at the beginning and he then rose, after my right hon.and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) had spoken and made a second speech. Therefore, he is now in fact proposing to make a third speech. My point is he can only make such a speech by permission of the House. I was venturing—as I am entitled to do—to put forward the difficulty in which the Opposition find themselves. No one wishes to show any discourtesy to the right hon. Gentleman. I would submit this view to you, Sir, as the protector of the rights of the House, and particularly of the Opposition. It is most unusual for a Minister to ask for permission to speak twice when he has, as we must assume, a perfectly competent Parliamentary Secretary to reply.

I thought the Minister had been asked if he was making a statement then and he said "No"—I agree somewhat verbosely. He is now deliberately asked to make his statement.

I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, but I must ask for your definite Ruling on this point. I understand—and of course naturally I do not controvert it—the Minister has twice before been on his feet, first to say he saw no need to make a speech, and then to make a speech, which I think will be found in HANSARD to-morrow, which lasted two or three minutes. Does neither of those occasions constitute the right hon. Gentleman having addressed the House? If that is your Ruling, Sir, so be it, but I wish it to be put on record.

The right hon. Gentleman was not making a speech. The rule should be applied with common sense. The Minister said he did not wish to make a statement then, but would wait to hear the Debate.

If I may be permitted, with the greatest respect, I am not concerned—

Mr. Speaker, do I understand the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) is challenging your Ruling?

I am doing nothing of the sort. I shall stand at this Box until I am ordered to be removed by Mr. Speaker. My point is this. I am not concerned with what is common sense or otherwise. I am concerned with the Standing Order, and I venture, with respect, to ask you, Mr. Speaker, for a Ruling whether the statement already made by the right hon. Gentleman is or is not a speech.

I rule that it was not a speech. Personally, I am not so much concerned with Standing Orders—valuable as they are—as I am concerned with applying them with common sense.

On a point of Order. In defence of the rights of Private Members, is it equity or fair to Private Members that they should be denied the right to speak once, when Ministers speak three times?

Mr. Speaker, I only speak because the right hon. Gentleman has demanded that I should speak. I indicated at the outset in reply to the question—and the quite proper question—put to me by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) that it appeared to me that there was nothing left to say, unless hon. Members opposite wished to put questions to me on any of the matters that came within the Financial Resolution. That is a plain statement of the position. All that I propose to do is to respond to the request made by the Opposition. Certain questions have been asked—quite proper questions in the circumstances—and I shall venture to offer a reply. But before doing so, if I may say so with great respect, I would say to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for—is it Stockton? No, he was defeated at Stockton—[ Interruption .]

I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that it is no use declaiming in the fashion he did about my desire to respond to the Debate when, indeed, it is the desire of the Opposition that I should address myself to the questions. I ventured to ask in the early hours of this morning on which leg the Opposition stood. It is quite obvious to me that if they stand on both legs, at least they appear to be cockeyed. At any rate, there is something wrong with their physical proportions, and I am in great difficulty in ascertaining what it is they want of us. [An HON. MEMBER: "Coal"] At any rate, I do not intend to pay very much attention to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) who, it appears to me, is seeking with great energy and great dramatic fervour to become the Leader of the Opposition.

On a point of Order. May I ask whether a disquisition by the Minister of Fuel and Power on the leadership of the Opposition has anything to do with the matter in hand?

About as much to do with it as the comments of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) on the absence of the Prime Minister.

As regards the question of redundancy, as was pointed out on the Committee stage of the Resolution, that is a matter which can properly be dealt with when we come to the Committee stage of the Bill. If hon. Members in any quarter of the Committee wish to make submissions on that score, I shall deal with those submissions as fairly and as sympathetically as the circumstances permit. I cannot go beyond that at this stage. On the question put to me about small owners, that is provided for in the Bill; Clause 34 provides that a licence may be granted by the Board, subject to certain conditions applicable to these small colliery undertakings, where fewer than 30 are employed below ground or where the number employed does not greatly exceed 30. That, I think, meets the point of the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Teeling).

As regards the matter of research, the hon. Member who raised that question is pushing at an open door. We are very anxious to promote research, and here I am not speaking so much of research into matters of safety, which is of course very important indeed, but into the question of utilisation. That is a matter for the Board, provided for in the Bill. It is also a matter for the Ministry itself. It is a subject we are now actively pursuing. I should have liked to discuss this very fascinating topic, this question of utilisation and all it involves, but this is not the appropriate moment.

10.15 p.m.

I was asked who was to be responsible for exports. That is provided for in the Bill, because, as Members may have noted, it is my intention when making appointments to the National Coal Board to secure that there should be someone who has a complete knowledge of the commercial aspects of the industry; and, of course, the National Coal Board must address itself to the question of exports, because they are of the utmost importance in relation to our national economy. The hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite who have done me the honour to listen to speeches I have made in this House from the opposite bench know that, though I am not entirely qualified on that matter—others are much more competent than I on matters of export and trade—at any rate, I am not unsympathetic.

I address myself to what appears to me to be the substantial question raised by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough, and that is the question of the terms of reference for which provision is made in the Financial Resolution. That, of course, is a quite relevant topic for us to discuss. It would have been comparatively simple for me as Minister responsible for the preparation of this Measure—though here I should like to express my gratitude to the very able staff I have at my disposal—to have fixed an arbitrary figure and brought that before the House and allowed the House to comment on the sum suggested. But, after all, it is not easy to arrange these matters. There are different views as to the amount of compensation that ought to be paid. It was thought wiser in all the circumstances to refer the matter to an arbitration tribunal, but in doing so it was equally desirable to have the terms of reference, which are exceedingly important in a matter of this kind, agreed; and fortunately, we were able to secure a substantial measure of agreement with the Mining Association, and so the arbitration tribunal can proceed expeditiously to the task facing it. The right hon. Gentleman put the point to me whether, if the tribunal determined a figure which would be excessive, it would not have an adverse effect on the taxpayer, whether it would not be regarded as too high.

All I can say about that is that if the figure is regarded as too high by some people, it will not be regarded as too high by those who are the recipients of the compensation. They will make no complaint. On the other hand, if the figure is regarded as too low by the recipients of compensation, obviously the Treasury will stand to gain. But I assume, and I think this is a well founded assumption, that a body of responsible and fairminded members of the judiciary of this country, assisted by one of the most able accountants in the land, will pay scrupulous fairness in a matter of this kind, and when the determination is reached and comes before the Government we are ready, as the Bill indicates, to accept it.

There is a final point—this question of how we propose to expend the £150,000,000. As the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles) pointed out, it is intended that we should extract from that figure of £150,000,000 a matter of £30,000,000 for the purposes of working capital. That is a proper thing to do. It is a business-like proceeding. What are we to do with the remainder? Of course, there will be some difficulty about the provision of plant. We are just emerging from the war period. There are difficulties about labour and material, difficulties about imports. Hon. Members in all quarters of the House are familiar with these matters and the difficulties involved. But there is a great deal of work that requires to be undertaken apart from the provision of machinery. The question as to whether we can secure the ample labour forces, approximating to the figure suggested by the hon. Member for Chippenham is a matter on which I am unable to comment. If I did, I should have to do so without having all the facts before me. That is to some extent hypothetical, and it all depends on circumstances.

As regards purchases from abroad, I would like to say to the House that, if it is at all possible, we desire to purchase for the purpose of re-equipping and reorganising the mining industry under the aegis of the National Coal Board British made machinery. Already we have embarked on a proposition which is designed to secure the best services of British mining plant manufacturers, and orders have been placed. Some of them are being implemented, but it is a slow process. On the other hand, if we should find ourselves in some difficulty because of the inability of the British mining plant manufacturers to deliver the goods, we may have recourse to American or continental plant.

At any rate, I am satisfied that we can expend that amount. If we should find that we are unable, for some reason or another, to expend the full amount we shall have a surplus which can be dealt with at a later stage. If, on the other hand, as an hon. Member suggested, we require more funds for the purpose of re-equipping and re-organising, there is a simple process available to us. We shall come to the House and ask for sanction for additional expenditure, and it will be for the House to decide. I have ventured, I hope reasonably and fairly, to reply to the questions put to me, and, having done so, I hope that the House will now agree to give me the resolution.

Before the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Linlithgow sits down, may I ask him one question. In the event of these additional sums being required, will there be a new Estimate and a new supplementary Estimate brought before the House?

I should say that it was not necessary for me to sit down, because I have not been standing up.

I am sorry, I was referring to the constituency for which the right hon. Gentleman the Minister used to sit.

I can give the hon. Gentleman this assurance. If we require on behalf of the National Coal Board and the industry under the new dispensation to come and ask for more funds, we shall come to the House in the usual fashion.

There are three points which I should like to raise. If the Minister has already exhausted his right to speak, I hope that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will reply to my questions. The first question concerns miners' coal.

I was not here last night so I know nothing about that, but a loss does not fall on the Exchequer but on the Coal Board.

The next point is one which affects the consumers of coal. There will have to be a Board to decide where the coal will go to. During the war we in Northern Ireland had a great lot of material shipped to us—

We would like to have a representative on the Board from Northern Ireland who would get us some coal. I wonder if the expenses of sending this representative over here would be paid out of this £150,000,000.

I apologise for bringing this matter up again. I asked this question in the course of my speech on the Second Reading and it was in regard to the expenditure of this £150,000,000. At that time I calculated that something like £50,000,000 would be required for the working capital. Since the Minister had limited himself to £30,000,000 I must adjust my calculations to £120,000,000. It is generally conceded for development work, 50 per cent. would be required for plant. Of £60,000,000 of capital, at least half will go on what is known as heavy plant, principally by way of having machinery underground and on things like new washeries and so on. I want a simple answer. It may be the Parliamentary Secretary will win his spurs by the way he answers, and the reply need only be "Yes" or "No."

I have been in touch during the last three or four months with manufacturers of some of this heavy plant, and they admit quite freely that they simply are not in a position to fulfil orders, which are inevitably going to be given to them. Skip winding is an instance because I believe we are going into that operation in a big way in this country. The makers of skip winding are not in a position to begin to fulfil orders. The same applies to washeries and to the whole host of requirements in the way of machinery and the like. The only possibility the manufacturers have is by way of a very large expansion of their own works and being given the opportunity of extending on such a scale that they can fulfil these requirements. I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary quite categorically. Are arrangements being made, or have arrangements been made for the supply of heavy equipment, so that during the next five years manufacturers will be in a position to fulfil the requirements which as I see approximate about £30,000,000 which is half of this £60,000,000 to be spent on plant? I am not concerned about light plant but heavy plant and I should like to ask this categorical question: Have arrangements been made for the supply of this heavy machinery? That can be answered "Yes" or "No".

10.30 p.m.

I should like to put one or two points which I had hoped to mention earlier this morning. In regard to this sum of £150,000,000 we feel that the Minister has not yet given an adequate explanation of how the money is to be spent. The right hon. Gentleman had an idea that the money would be spent on stores, and that some would be required for working capital, but we feel that he is not satisfied that he will get the up-to-date machinery which is to be put into the mines. What steps have been taken to ensure that this machinery will be available? The taxpayers are entitled to an answer to that question, as they will have to provide the money. The miners, who might have an interest in the quantity of machinery that it is hoped will be put into the mines, are also taxpayers, and would also like to know the estimated saving in manpower as a result of the provision of the machinery.

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Altrincham (Colonel Erroll) said he hoped it would be possible to save 50,000,000 tons of coal a year as a result of research into the use of fuel. Can the Minister say whether he hopes to save 50,000 men as a labour force for the industry so that they can find a more pleasant occupation elsewhere? Is it consistent with the policy of full employment that we should have the utmost organisation in the mines? We have been told that a deputation went to Germany to inquire as to whether certain industries there were more up-to-date—

The hon. Member for Cannock (Miss Lee) said during the Debate that the miner was the most important machine. I suggest that a miner is not a machine; he is a human being, who now has to sit in front of an empty grate, which this Bill will do nothing to fill.

I would like to refer to one aspect of the most important item of £150,000,000. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Altrincham (Colonel Erroll) said he thought that this sum might not be enough. If it should prove too little at a future date then, clearly, it is far too much at this moment. There were once five reformers who sat behind a bush in order to decide what should be done. The fifth of those reformists decided the first thing to do was to decide how to do it. The relevance of this story will be immediately apparent to the House. The right hon. Gentleman should have made up his mind exactly how much money he wanted to spend and what he wanted to spend it on before putting the sum into this Resolution. I have one final question which I hope will be answered. Neither the Minister nor the Parliamentary Secretary has denied the vast importance of this figure. Some may think the Minister has not given any-

thing like a sufficient answer as to how it is to be spent. The question I would like to be answered is why when the Minister was mentioning in his first speech—[An HON. MEMBER: "Come to the point."]—the sum of £150,000,000 he said nothing whatever as to how it was to be spent.

On a point of Order. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) has made several speeches.

Those speeches were not made in the course of this Debate. They were made on points of Order.

I wish to make an observation of a friendly kind to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power. I will merely say that not only in my comparatively long experience, but in the experience of many other Members of the House, it is quite unusual, when a number of substantial points, as put by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Fylde (Colonel Lancaster), are put to the House, not to have a reply from the Parliamentary Secretary. There have been instances, it is true, in the past when the Parliamentary Secretary has not been allowed to speak because he has not been considered competent to tell us, but no-one will believe that is now true. I invite him to reply to my hon. and gallant Friend.

Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

The House divided: Ayes, 209; Noes, 87.

Division No. 73.]

AYES.

[10.38 p.m.

Adams, Capt. Richard (Balham)

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Adamson, Mrs. J. L.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Deer, G.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Delargy, Captain H. J.

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Diamond, J.

Alpass, J. H.

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Dodds, N. N.

Austin, H. L.

Burden, T. W.

Douglas, F. C. R.

Ayles, W. H.

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Bacon, Miss A.

Chamberlain, R. A.

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Balfour, A.

Champion, A. J.

Dumpleton, C. W.

Barton, C.

Chetwynd, Capt. G. R.

Dye, S.

Belcher, J. W.

Cluse, W. S.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Berry, H.

Cocks, F. S.

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Beswick, Fit.-Lieut. F.

Coldrick, W.

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Collick, P.

Ewart, R.

Bing, Capt. G. H. C.

Collindridge, F.

Fairhurst, F.

Binns, J.

Comyns, Dr. L

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

Blyton, W. R.

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

Follick, M.

Boardman, H.

Corlett, Dr. J.

Foot, M. M.

Bowden, Fig.-Offr. H. W.

Daines, P.

Foster, W. (Wigan)

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'p'l, Exch'ge)

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Gaitskell, H. T. N.

Gallacher, W.

Mallalieu, J. P. W.

Simmons, C. J.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Skeffington, A. M.

George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

Gibson, C. W.

Mathers, G.

Skinnard, F. W.

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Mayhew, C. P.

Smith, Capt. C. (Colchester)

Gooch, E. G.

Medland, H. M.

Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

Goodrich, H. E.

Middleton, Mrs. L.

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

Gordon-Walker, P. C.

Mikardo, Ian

Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

Grenfell, D. R.

Mitchison, Maj. G. R.

Snow, Capt. J. W.

Grey, C. F.

Monslow, W.

Sparks, J. A

Grierson, E.

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Stamford, W.

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Morley, R.

Steele, T.

Guy, W. H.

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)

Haire, Fit.-Lieut. J. (Wycombe)

Murray, J. D

Stross, Dr. B.

Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley)

Nally, W.

Swingler, Capt. S.

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Symonds, Maj. A. L.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Haworth, J

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Oldfield, W. H.

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Hobson, C. R.

Oliver, G. H.

Thorneycroft, H.

House, G.

Orbach, M.

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

Turner-Samuels, M.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Hughes, Lt. H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Palmer, A. M. F.

Usborne, Henry

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Parkin, Flt.-Lieut. B. T.

Vernon, Maj. W. F.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Walkden, E.

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Irving, W. J.

Peart, Capt. T. F.

Warbey, W. N.

Janner, B.

Perrins, W.

Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

Jeger, Capt. G. (Winchester)

Piratin, P.

Weitzman, D.

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

Popplewell, E.

Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

Porter, E. (Warrington)

White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Pritt, D. N.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Keenan, W.

Proctor, W. T.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

Pursey, Cmdr. H.

Wilkes, Maj. L.

Kinley, J.

Randall, H. E.

Wilkins, W. A.

Layers, S.

Ranger, J.

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Rees-Williams, Lt.-Col. D. R

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Levy, B. W.

Robens, A.

Willis, E.

Lipson, D. L.

Royle, C.

Wilson, J. H.

Longden, F.

Sargood, R.

Woodburn, A

Lyne, A. W.

Scott-Elliot, W.

Woods, G. S.

McAdam, W.

Segal, Sq.-Ldr. S.

Yates, V. F.

McAllister, G.

Sharp, Lt.-Col. G. M.

Zilliacus, K.

McEntee, V. La T.

Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

McGhee, H. G

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES

Mack, J. D.

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Mr. Pearson and Captain Blenkinsop

McLeavy, F.

Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

NOES

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

Gage, Lt.-Col. C.

Nield, B. (Chester)

Aitken, Hon. M.

Gates, Maj. E. E.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

Glossop, C. W. H.

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.

Bennett, Sir P.

Grimston, R. V.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

Birch, Lt.-Col. Nigel

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Raikes, H. V.

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

Hare, Lieut.-Col. Hn. J. H. (W'dbr'ge)

Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)

Bower, N.

Head, Brig. A. H.

Ross, Sir R.

Boyd-Carpenter, Maj. J. A.

Hollis, Sqn.-Ldr. M. C.

Shepherd, Lieut. W. S. (Bucklow)

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Hope, Lord J.

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Howard, Hon. A.

Spearman, A. C. M.

Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

Hutchison, Lt.-Col. J. R. (G'gow, C.)

Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

Carson, E.

Lambert, G.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J.

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

Langford-Holt, J.

Studholme, H. G.

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Teeling, William

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Lindsay, Lt.-Col. M. (Solihull)

Touche, G C.

Cuthbert, W. N.

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Turton, R. H.

Darling, Sir W. Y.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Vane, Lieut.-Col. W. M. T.

Digby, Maj. S. W.

Mackeson, Lt.-Col. H R.

Walker-Smith, D.

Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

Wheatley, M. J.

Drayson, Capt. G. B.

Marlowe, A. A. H.

White, J. B. (Canterbury)

Drewe, C.

Marsden, Capt. A.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Maude, J. C

Willink, Rt. Hon. H. U.

Duthie, W. S.

Mellor, Sir J.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Eccles, D. M.

Molson, A. H. E.

York, C.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Morrison, Rt. Hn. W. S. (Cirencester)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES ::

Fox, Sqn.-Ldr. Sir G.

Neven-Spence, Major Sir B.

Major Mott-Radclyffe and Sir Arthur Young

U.S. Army Vehicle (Fatal Accident)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn.—[ Mr. J. Henderson .]

10.47 p.m.

On 8th August of last year, Leading Aircraftman Alfred Geary was killed at Sutton Coldfield by an American jeep. I should make it clear that I propose to draw attention not to any question of civil damages, but to the potential criminal aspects of this matter. Leading Aircraftman Geary was standing on a footpath beside a main road at 11 o'clock at night when he was struck by the American jeep. The night was dark, but the road was well lit. Two cyclists were seriously injured at the same moment. The jeep which struck Leading Aircraftman Geary, travelled for 99 yards along the footpath and passed between a 'bus stop sign and a wall only six feet away on the other side of the footpath. The jeep was driven by Corporal Mazur of the United States Army. I know from official sources that he was off duty at the time. I have also been informed, though I have not been able to confirm this from official sources, that a local girl was a passenger in the jeep at the time. On 24th August, 1945, I asked the Home Secretary a question in the House, and he replied: The report concludes:

Paragraph 5 runs as follows: United States should have this particular exclusive jurisdiction— liaison , or of arrangements for exchange of information, upon matters of this sort.

We must watch a matter like this. When a British subject has been killed in an English town, we cannot just wash our hands of the matter and say that it is the responsibility of the United States authorities to see that justice is done. We have to be satisfied that the United States authorities have discharged their obligations under the arrangement that was come to. It is not, of course, for us to come to any conclusion as to the guilt or innocence of the man concerned, but I think that we have a right, and a duty, to ensure that full judicial inquiry is made, and that the understanding contained in these notes which I have read is fully implemented. I hope that the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department will be able to give me some satisfactory assurance and some positive information.

11.2 p.m.

I only rise because I happen to live in the town in which this incident happened, and I would like to support my hon. Friend in the case which he has put forward. One well knows the feeling that is engendered in a locality when an incident such as this happens and relatives, friends and neighbours generally find that nothing can be done. Rumour, talk, and feelings of dissatisfaction arise, and I feel that my hon. Friend has done a duty to his constituents, of which I happen to be one, in bringing this matter forward. I would press the Under-Secretary to say something which will enable us to satisfy our neighbours and friends, that this matter is not being treated lightly because it took place some months ago. In the individual lives of ordinary citizens, matters like this assume a very great importance, and I feel that we have only done our duty in bringing it forward.

11.4 p.m.

I am quite sure that the House would say to both hon. Gentlemen that they have stated their case very fairly and have brought before the House a very proper subject, because this is a matter which must exercise the mind of a Minister to see that some explanation and some speedy explanation is offered for the delay which undoubtedly has taken place. I cannot complain of the manner in which the hon. Gentleman opened the case and slated the facts, because they are substantially in agreement with the information which I possess. I ought, perhaps to make this observation on the facts. When the accident took place statements were taken by police officers and sent to the American military authorities. A statement was also taken from the driver of the jeep by a military representative of the American authorities and all these facts were put into the possession of the American people. When the inquest was held the American officer informed the coroner that the driver of the jeep was under arrest, pending a court-martial for having caused the death of this man. Very rightly, the coroner did not call the driver of the jeep as a witness, but wrongly, he continued the inquest instead of adjourning it as under the regulations he was required to do, since an American soldier was to be charged with the offence of causing the death of a citizen of this country. He did not do this but continued the inquest, returning a verdict of death accidentally caused.

The position was that we were expecting that some steps would be taken, for, as the hon. Gentleman rightly stated, the United States of America (Visiting Forces) Act of 1942 gives exclusive control to the American military authorities for criminal matters in respect of their own Fighting Services in this country. Those arrangements, I am informed, have worked very successfully. The American military authorities have shown themselves willing to institute proceedings in a way one would expect, and they have, on finding one of their nationals guilty, punished him. In fact, no complaint of any kind has been made with respect to the working of that Statute.

In the ordinary course of events this matter would have come under consideration under that Act, but, particularly having regard to the statement of the American officer at the inquest, that the driver was under arrest pending a court martial, it was assumed that steps would be taken to bring this man to trial. The hon. Member read the letter which he directed to the Foreign Office, which made it quite clear that an inquiry was being made. I think the hon. Member made inquiries about October last and he received a reply from the Foreign Office in November to the effect that there was no record of a court-martial against the driver. I think the hon. Member then addressed a question to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, who under- took to make inquiries about this matter. He contacted the American' Provost Marshal in this country, and he was told at his office that they had no record whatever of any action being taken against this man. Therefore, my right hon. Friend thought that this was a case that ought to be directed to the American Ambassador and he sought his assistance to obtain some information, and, if possible, institute the court-martial which, it was understood, was being taken. About that time, I gather, the driver of the jeep went back to America. The matter had to be referred to Washington, and it was necessary for correspondence to pass between this country and the United States on the subject. My right hon. Friend made contact with the American Ambassador and there the matter, as far as we know, now remains.

We do not know what steps are being taken at the moment, and all I can say as consolation to the hon. Member is that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will endeavour to expedite a reply in the hope that a satisfactory conclusion can be arrived at; either that a court-martial is to be instituted, or that it is not, for reasons which, no doubt, we shall have explained.

Perhaps I ought to say that because of the termination of the war and the general reduction in the American Forces in this country much dislocation may well have taken place. I have no doubt that the Americans do recognise the importance of this matter to this country and particularly to the unfortunate relatives of the man who was knocked down; not that any question of civil liability arises, because I understand that that has been admitted, and that a settlement is likely to be quickly obtained. However, as I have said, I can assure the hon. Member that my right hon. Friend will, by reason of the representations which have been made on this matter, take every step to expedite a reply from the United States.

11.11 p.m.

I do not think that is very satisfactory. In this case a British subject was standing on the side of the road when a jeep, driven by an American, comes along and kills him, and travels 99 yards before the driver can stop. The Under-Secretary seems satisfied that the proper procedure has been gone through, but he has not said anything, or has said very little, about the feelings of the relatives of the dead man. Is it any satisfaction to them to hear what the Under-Secretary has said? It is no satisfaction at all. I have spent some years in the United States and I can say that, if a British subject had done in America what the driver of the jeep did here, he would not have been allowed to get away with it as the American did here. We want something more from the Minister. I do not dispute the good intentions of the Foreign Office in many directions, but in this instance they have been weak—

What would the hon. and gallant Gentleman expect the Home Secretary to do other than what he has done?

I will tell the hon. Gentleman. He should say to the American authorities "Here is the case of a dead Englishman and"—

The hon. and gallant Gentleman is not entitled to criticise the form of the American Government.

I quite agree, but I was asked what I would do. I would say, with all due respect and humility, and in terms which would appeal to American citizens: "Here is the case of a dead Englishman who was killed by an American. What satisfaction are we to get? We are not satisfied with the explanation given by the Under-Secretary.

11.14 p.m.

When we took jurisdiction away from ourselves and gave it to the Americans, I did not like it at the time and I argued against it, although I did not vote. Once we did that, there was nothing left we could do, except press for information in cases like this. We can get angry and excited, but we cannot do anything.

Did the hon. and learned Member study the notes exchanged between the Foreign Office and the American Ambassador, which preceded the introduction of the Bill which effected the change?

I studied it in the sense that I have listened attentively to what has been said tonight and I am a good enough lawyer to know that it makes no difference to the law. It makes a good ground for pressing the Americans, and they are being pressed.

May I ask the Under-Secretary whether I was right in understanding him to say, as a general proposition, that, where one of the King's subjects was killed in this country, the coroner, as the King's officer, was not entitled to pursue inquiries into the cause of death because an American soldier might be involved?

I cannot lay down any general principle, but only say that in the circumstances then prevailing—I think it was August, 1945, and the Defence Regulation is 1942—while that Regulation obtained, in view of the fact that an American soldier had killed a British citizen in this country, it was the duty of the coroner, by virtue of that regulation, to have adjourned the inquest.

I think so, but I do not know.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at a Quarter past Eleven o'Clock.