House of Commons
Monday, February 4, 1946
The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]
Oral Answers to Questions
India
Shooting Incidents
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will instruct the Government of India to order a public inquiry into the shooting of unarmed students of Calcutta and other places in India; and if he will publish the figures of casualties during these incidents.
I regret to say that altogether 57 persons have died and the number known to have been injured is about 700. The disturbances were in all cases dealt with by the police and the military were net called in. The Madras incident was on a comparatively small scale and was dealt with in my reply to the hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. B. Taylor) on 3rd December. The circumstances of the Bombay occurrence, about which I am circulating separately today a full statement as a written answer to the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove), were such as to necessitate the use by the police of all means at their disposal to hold the situation and firing was not used except as a last resort and then was under strict control. The Bombay Government, with whom the decision primarily rests after a review of the facts of which they have full knowledge, regard an inquiry as not likely to produce any new facts of substantial importance. As regards Calcutta, a departmental inquiry was held and has shown that in all but possibly one case the firing was justified. That case is being further investigated. In no instance were the disturbances confined to students, nor did the police fire until the crowd had thrown missiles or resorted to other violent methods or until firing was necessary in defence of life or Government property. In all the circumstances the Governor-General does not consider that a public inquiry is called for and my Noble Friend accepts this view
Army Officers (Demobilisation)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will give an assurance that ex-British Army officers attached to the R.I.N.V.R. will qualify for demobilisation in England according to their age and service group and do not suffer delay from having volunteered for service in India.
Yes, Sir.
Indians, South Africa (Discrimination)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the recent announcement by General Smuts in the Union Parliament, proposing legislation to prohibit acquisition of property by Asiatics in other than certain restricted areas; and if he will take up this further discrimination against Indians in South Africa, either with the Government of the Union of South Africa, or with U.N.O. on behalf of India.
I have seen telegraphic reports of the announcement made by Field-Marshal Smuts, but so far as I am aware the detailed proposals of the Union Government have not yet been published. In accordance with the recognised principles of Inter-Imperial relations this matter will fall to be dealt with directly between the Government of India through their High Commissioner and the Union Government.
Burma
Anti-Fascist People's Freedom League
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma if he will make a statement on the present relations between the Governor of Burma and the Anti-Fascist People's Freedom League; and on the Governor's intentions in regard to the five vacancies on the Executive Council.
The Governor has continued to hope for the co-operation of the League in his Government and in the reconstruction of Burma. There has, however, been so far no response from them to his invitations to serve either in the Executive or in the Legislative Councils. One of the outstanding five vacancies has now been filled by the appointment of Thakin Tun Ok, a prominent younger politician, who has lately returned to Burma from Singapore, where he had been detained by the Japanese.
Could my hon. and learned Friend say to what party he belongs, or to what school of thought?
No, Sir.
How many Burmese organisations are there in the Anti-Fascist People's Freedom League, what is the strength of their organisation, and what do they really represent?
I prefer to have notice of that. They do ostensibly comprise a number of political groups in Burma.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma if he will make a statement on the proposed visit to this country of a deputation from the Anti-Fascist People's Freedom League of Burma; and if he will do all he can to expedite the visit.
The Anti-Fascist People's Freedom League have been informed by the Governor that His Majesty's Government are not prepared to receive deputations from any individual party or organisation but nevertheless that should two of their members wish to visit the United Kingdom in an entirely private capacity to make informal contacts, endeavours would be made to help them to obtain sea passages to the United Kingdom once the present extreme pressure on accommodation is eased. Such facility would, of course, equally be extended to any other important political party or organisation in Burma.
Could my hon. and learned Friend name any important political organisation outside the Anti-Fascist People's Freedom League, which embraces them all?
I do not think there is any other political party which embraces them all, but there are quite a number of other parties which may or may not desire to send deputations, or people on their behalf, to this country. All I am saying is, if they do they must have the same facilities as may be extended to the Anti-Fascist People's Freedom League.
My hon. and learned Friend has misunderstood my question. I asked him if he would name any important political party which is outside the Anti-Fascist People's Freedom League, because that does happen to embrace them all.
Speaking offhand, there is the Myochit Party.
Which has no mass following.
Is the Anti-Fascist People's League of Burma also Anti-Communist?
I would prefer them to answer for themselves on that point.
U Saw (Release)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma if he will make a statement on the recent release of U Saw.
U Saw, formerly Premier of Burma, was detained in January, 1942, on account of his deliberate contacts with the Japanese after the outbreak of war. He has since been in detention in Uganda. Now that the Japanese have been defeated, His Majesty's Government having carefully reviewed the circumstances in consultation with the Governor have decided that as a special case they would take no further action against U Saw, but would allow him to return to Burma. U Saw has now arrived in Rangoon.
Could my hon. and learned Friend say whether U Saw is going to be allowed to take an active part in politics again? Is there going to be any attempt to build up U Saw and his party to counterbalance the overwhelming popular support enjoyed by the Anti-Fascist People's Freedom League?
As regards the first part of the supplementary question, Burma being, like this country, a free country, it will be difficult to prevent any citizen taking part in politics. As regards the second part, I can assure my hon. Friend the answer is in the negative.
Questions
Philippines (British Interests)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether discussions have taken place with the U.S.A. as to how British concerns who have lost a substantial portion of their assets in the Philippines owing to the Japanese invasion can claim compensation, and how soon, and by whom, this compensation will be paid.
Discussions have been and are still taking place with the United States Government with a view to securing for British concerns and British subjects compensation for damage and loss incurred by them in the Philippines during the Japanese occupation. It is therefore impossible meantime to answer the last part of the Question.
United Nations
World Trade Union Movement
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what part it is intended that the world trade union movement shall play in the work of U.N.O.
This question will be decided by the United Nations.
May I ask my hon. Friend if he is aware that the World Federation of Trade Unions has very strong and deep roots amongst the workers of 56 nations of the world, and will he agree that for the lasting peace of the world a place should be found for it within the framework of the United Nations? Would my hon. Friend give an assurance that the Government will pursue a policy to that end?
His Majesty's Government are anxious that all world organisations shall take such part inside the United Nations as the constitution of the United Nations provides.
Will the R.S.P.C.A. and the Lord's Day Observance Society also be allowed to play a part?
Entertainment
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that recent U.S. films are to be shown to representatives of member States of U.N.O. on three evenings a week throughout the session in London; and whether he will take steps to ensure that the representatives are invited to see British films and plays, and to hear British music while in this country.
British films are also being shown to U.N.O. delegates three times weekly by courtesy of Mr. Arthur J. Rank. Delegates have also been encouraged to attend plays and concerts and every assistance is given delegates to obtain tickets.
Reports
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is in a position to ensure that arrangements are made for making available to Members of this House printed copies of the verbatim Reports, in English, of the proceedings of U.N.O. and its principal component parts; and whether he will state the arrangements in force for the supply of such Reports for sale to the general public.
Copies of the printed Journals of the General Assembly and its committees, of the Security Council, and of the Economic and Social Council are available to hon. Members through the Vote Office and will also be found in the Library of the House. Bound volumes of the whole proceedings, in the form of reprints of the Journals, will be prepared as soon as the Assembly closes. A number of copies of these volumes will be placed in the Library.
Security Council (British Permanent Representative)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why, in view of the outstanding political importance of the post of permanent British representative on the Security Council of U.N.O., this post has not been filled by a member of the Labour Party.
The need for a permanent representative on the Security Council arises from the first paragraph of Article 28 of the Charter, which provides that the Security Council shall be so organised as to be able to function continuously and requires each member of the Council to be permanently represented for this purpose at the seat of the Organisation.
The permanent representative for the United Kingdom on the Security Council will attend the regular meetings of the Council at the United Nations headquarters. He will be directly responsible to the Foreign Secretary, will act as his Deputy and will take his orders from him. The Foreign Secretary himself will normally attend the "periodic meetings," for which paragraph 2 of Article 28 of the Charter provides, and at which it is contemplated that States shall be represented by members of their Governments. The Foreign Secretary will, of course, also attend any other meetings of the Security Council which may deal with questions of particular importance. The Minister of State will represent the United Kingdom on the Economic and Social Council.
Sir Alexander Cadogan, who has been appointed to the post of permanent representative on the Security Council at the seat of the United Nations, has had great experience over many years of the working of the League of Nations, in the course of which he served under Arthur Henderson, who had, I know, the highest opinion of his ability. Sir Alexander Cadogan was the representative of the United Kingdom at the Dumbarton Oaks Conference, which laid the foundation on which the Charter was built, and he took a leading part in the proceedings of the San Francisco Conference, which gave the Charter to the world. His unrivalled experience in the working of international machinery will be of immeasurable value during the formative period when the structure of the United Nations Organisation is being built up on the foundations laid at San Francisco and during the present Conference in London.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is a position involving day-to-day decisions of a highly execu- five and policy-making character and not a purely administrative one? Will he take note of the grave dissatisfaction that is felt at the continued appointment of non-Socialists to positions of high political importance?
I am certain that the best usage of this House is that a Minister should be attacked but never civil servants. I also think that the hon. Gentleman would not employ his doctor in relation to his political opinion—
On a point of Order. I ask your protection, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that I made it perfectly clear in my supplementary question that I was not attacking any person but that I was attacking the principle. [An HON. MEMBER: "The hon. Member is suggesting Professor Laski, I suppose?"]
I am exceedingly sorry. The answer to the supplementary raised by my hon. Friend is that in all matters of policy this official will be subject, as usual, to the direction of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
This is the second instance of our Socialist Friends behind the Under-Secretary desiring that appointments should not be by merit but by political party opinions.
Is the Under-Secretary aware that the background of discontent on this issue is that the diplomatic service of this country is almost solely in the hands of people who apparently do not understand the philosophy of this Government? We should like that discrepancy narrowed, and some people in the Service who share our Labour Government's point of view.
In view of this officer's most distinguished services, first to the cause of the League and then to the building of the San Francisco Charter, may I be allowed to say to the Government that we are very glad that they should have made their appointment on merit and not on any political bias?
May I ask the hon. Gentleman to mark the distinction that the hon. and gallant Member for South Pad-dington (Vice-Admiral Taylor) was incapable of making, apparently, between adminnistrative posts and political posts? No one on this side of the House suggests that administrative posts should be party posts.
May I ask for an assurance that neither in respect of this particular post nor any other under the control of the Foreign Office will the hon. Gentleman do anything that will exclude from the possibility of appointment a person of robust independent views?
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply I wish to give notice that I shall take an early opportunity of raising this matter on the Adjournment.
Questions
European Needs and Resources
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the contemplated White Paper as to European needs and relevant world resources may be expected.
Monthly statements are now issued about European coal production and the transportation situation on the Continent, by the European Coal Organisation and the European Central Inland Transportation Organisation respectively and I am informed that both Organisations hope to be able to issue them nearer the periods to which they refer, As regards food, the Emergency Economic Committee for Europe is considering the publication of what it is hoped will be the first of a series of statements on the food position in Europe at the present time.
His Majesty's Government have been pressing for the publication of figures of this kind, particularly those relating to food, and I am arranging for copies of all these publications to be placed in the Library. I share the right hon. Gentleman's desire for making facts about both needs and resources generally known, and I am considering what further information could usefully be published subject to the views of other Governments, who must first be consulted, but I trust that these publications will go some way towards meeting what he has in mind.
While expressing pleasure that we are going to have something, may I ask whether the Government realise the grave consequences that have followed from the public of the world being very inadequately informed as to the serious deterioration in the wheat position which has been taking place in the last few months?
I do not necessarily disassociate myself from what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I am sure he will be anxious to bear in mind that this matter of publication has not lain completely within our competence.
Greece
Loan Agreement
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Greek Government during the negotiations for a British loan declared their intention to introduce price regulation, control of investment, a full employment policy and such socialisation as is needed to restore the national economy; and whether the loan is to be reinforced with an Anglo-Greek trade agreement guaranteeing reciprocal markets.
Under the Agreement concluded on January 24th, the Greek Government undertake to draw up and put into effect a comprehensive programme for the restoration of Greek economy. Price control is specifically mentioned in the Agreement, and I have no doubt that the other measures referred to in the Question will be adopted if they are considered to be advisable in the light of. conditions existing in Greece. It is also the earnest desire both of His Majesty's Government and of the Greek Government that trade between the two countries should be expanded as much as possible.
Would my hon. Friend say whether any specific steps are being taken to initiate the discussion of a trade agreement between the two countries?
No discussions are taking place on the question of a trade agreement, but discussions have already taken place on the subject of expanding our reciprocal trade.
Will the Under-Secretary undertake that British assistance to Greece will not be made conditional on the adoption by the Greek Government of any special ideology?
I must repudiate that suggestion immediately. The desire of His Majesty's Government has been to help the Greek Government, and that we are doing.
Colonel C. Kostopoulos
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that Colonel C. Kostopoulos, commander of the security battalion in Sparta during the German occupation, still holds a commission in the Greek army; and whether further instructions will be given to the British Military Mission in Athens who are rebuilding the Greek army to see that officers with collaborationist records do not retain their appointments.
Colonel Kostopoulos was brought to trial in December on a charge of collaboration and was acquitted by the court. I am informed that he is still on the active list of the Greek Army, but holds no appointment, and that the Greek General Staff have made no decision about his future employment. As regards the second part of the Question, legal machinery was established by the Greek Government for investigating all charges of collaboration, and the Military Mission cannot act independently of this.
Is it not a fact that the continued acquittal of men like Kostopoulos who, it is not denied, was chief of the Sparta Security Battalion throughout the occupation, does much to throw discredit upon the British authorities in Greece, and will the hon. Gentleman make representations to the effect that such acquittals should not continue to take place?
The British Government cannot be responsible for the processes of justice and trial in Greece. I am quite sure that my hon. and gallant Friend would be the last to insist that we should usurp that function.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when such acquittals take place it causes folks like us on this side of the House to have doubts and misgivings about their conceptions of justice?
As a friend of Greece, I would like to dissociate myself from that imputation. I must repeat that His Majesty's Government cannot and will not be responsible for the processes of justice in a sovereign country.
George Dallas
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he now has any further statement to make on the case of George Dallas, of Kalamata, a leader of E.A.M. in Messina during the German occupation and who has been imprisoned since February, 1945.
I am glad to be able to tell my hon. and gallant Friend that Dallas has been released under the new Amnesty Law.
While thanking the hon. Gentleman for the efforts he has made in this case, may I ask that similar energy will be shown in regard to securing the release of other leaders of the resistance, particulars of whom I have already sent?
Wherever my hon. and gallant Friend is able to assist as precisely and exactly as he has done in this case, he can depend upon His Majesty's Government to pursue the matter.
X Organisation
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action has been taken in Greece to deal with the instigators of the X-ite uprising in Kalamata.
The Greek Prime Minister has assured His Majesty's Ambassador that orders have been given that as many as possible of the insurgents should be arrested and tried by court martial at once. The Greek Government are considering the legal position of the X organisation as a whole. Meanwhile the organisation's offices in Athens and Piraeus have been closed.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that no arrests of those responsible for the uprising and for the murder of 14 hostages have yet been made? Is he satisfied that the British authorities in Greece are acting with sufficient energy in order to assist the Greek Government to suppress Right Wing violence and terrorism?
I have no information about the allegation made in the first part of the question. As regards the second part, no requests have been made by the Greek Government, who are in control of the situation. If they are made, of course, His Majesty's Government will then render such assistance as may be needed at any time for the maintenance of public order.
Is the hon. Gentleman really satisfied that the Greek Government are in control of the situation, when the instigators of revolt have not yet been apprehended?
I think it exceedingly unwise and ungenerous that criticisms of the Greek Government of that kind should be made here.
Questions
Yugoslavia (Quislings)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representations have been received from the Yugoslav Government for the extradition from British-controlled zones in Europe of Yugoslav war criminals; and how many such war criminals have been handed over to the Yugoslav authorities.
The term "war criminal" is properly employed to denote an enemy national or an Allied national serving in enemy uniform who has committed a violation of the laws and usages of war. In this sense there are no war criminals of Yugoslav nationality. His Majesty's Government have, however, received requests from the Yugoslav Government for the surrender of a number of Quislings and people of Yugoslav nationality alleged to have engaged in treasonable activities against the Yugoslav State and to be guilty of offences under Yugoslav law. Up to the present the Allied authorities in Italy have traced and surrendered to the Yugoslav Government four of those concerned, including the principal Slovene Quisling, General Rupnik. General Nedic has been handed over by the United States authorities. Search for others continues.
While I thank my hon. Friend for that clarification, could he be a little more specific in the case of the Croat quisling Pavelic, about whom repeated representations have been made, and could he assure the House that we are really making every effort to find the people the Yugoslav Government are asking for?
Wherever the Yugoslav Government have offered exact informa- tion, we have given every assistance in attempting to trace those people, and in the case of that particular gentleman—if that is the word—the search is proceeding.
Will the hon. Gentleman say whether His Majesty's Government will make certain that there is a prima facie case against a person before he is handed over?
His Majesty's Government can be trusted to conform to the general usages of justice.
Is it really true that the Government do not know the whereabouts of Pavelic, the Ustachi criminal, because if so we could help to find him?
His Majesty's Government never object to advice and help from any quarter.
Could the Under-Secretary say whether His Majesty's Government are instituting proceedings with a view to apprehending and handing over the quisling General Mikhailovitch to the Yugoslav authorities?
:That is quite another question.
Polish Armed Forces (Repatriation)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps are being taken to persuade members of the Polish armed forces now outside Poland to return to their own land; and whether a time limit is being set beyond which they will cease to be officially recognised in this country.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that General Anders and other Polish officers of the Polish Second Corps in Italy, are engaged in anti-Soviet intrigues and propaganda; that the British public is disturbed at this fact; and what specific steps he proposes to take to end this state of affairs.
His Majesty's Government have under active consideration the question of the future of the Polish armed forces under British command, including the Polish Second Corps in Italy. My right hon. Friend hopes soon to make a full statement to the House.
Will the hon. Gentleman also bear in mind that the British public have long memories, and remember how much we owe to the courage and steadfastness of those Polish troops?
Will the Foreign Secretary's, forthcoming statement deal with the arrangements being made for the granting of British nationality to those Poles who have been promised it in the past?
Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will be so good as to wait for the statement.
While I hope that many of these Poles will return to their own country to take part in its reconstruction, may I ask whether the Minister is aware that many of them are dubbed as Fascists by the Polish Provisional Government, and that this is hardly likely to encourage them to return?
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is growing uneasiness in this country at the continued interference by Russia in the internal affairs of Poland, and as that is a menace to peace, will he have the matter brought before the Security Council?
That does not arise from this Question.
French Colonial Territories (Minerals)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make representations to the French Government proposing that it should follow the British precedent and allow foreign nationals equal rights with their own in prospecting and developing minerals in French colonial territory.
This Question raises some complicated issues which I am having examined. I will endeavour to send my hon. Friend a full reply as soon as possible.
Japanese Islands (Cession)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is in a position to make a statement on the secret clauses of the Yalta Agree- ment by which the Kurile Islands and the southern half of Sakhalin were ceded to Russia.
The publication of the relevant agreement is under consideration by His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, and the United States and Soviet Governments. I am not, therefore, meantime in a position to make a statement on this subject.
Peace Treaties
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make regarding the progress being made in the preparation of peace treaties with the satellite Axis States.
No, Sir.
U.S. Aircraft Sale (Spain)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the sale by the U.S. Government of Flying Fortresses to the Spanish Government; and whether he will draw the attention of the U.S. Government to the fact that such action is inconsistent with the Moscow Declaration, of which the U.S. and British Governments were both signatories.
I have no information to confirm that any Flying Fortresses have been sold to the Spanish Government, and think this most unlikely. My hon. and gallant Friend is no doubt referring to reports of the sale of certain surplus United States transport aircraft to the Spanish Government. The United States Acting Secretary of State recently announced that these aircraft, together with certain other equipment, are being supplied to Spain solely for the purposes of civil aviation.
Can my hon. Friend assure the House that every effort has been made by His Majesty's Government, by international agreement, to stop the supply of war equipment to General Franco's Government?
I have already made it plain that we have no information that Flying Fortresses are being supplied.
Will the hon. Gentleman consider making representations to the American Government to the effect that, if the Americans have any aircraft to spare, they should be sold to the Allies rather than to Spain?
Foreign Service
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any proposals under consideration for reforms within the Foreign Office and the Diplomatic Service.
The Foreign Office and Diplomatic Service ceased to exist as a separate Service when His Majesty's Foreign Service was created by Order-in-Council on the 20th May, 1943. This was part of a programme of reform set forth in Command Paper 6420 of 1943 and approved by Parliament at that time. As stated in that White Paper the full effect of the projected reforms, especially insofar as recruitment and training were concerned, could not be felt for some years. That programme is, however, being energetically carried out.
Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the proposals in this document go far enough?
I am sure satisfaction is a matter for heaven and not for earth.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I have denounced that White Paper as a sham and a fraud; and that if the Government really intend to make the Diplomatic and Consular Service anything like an appropriate instrument for a democratic community they have to reoganise the thing from top to bottom?
I have no doubt that like the previous Government this Government will always take note of any advice which the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Brown) has to offer.
Is it proposed to bring the Diplomatic Corps under the new Trades Disputes Act?
Is the hon. Gentleman certain that the White Paper really provides equality of opportunity as between men and women?
That of all questions is one of which I should have notice.
Before these reforms are effected, will the hon. Gentleman give consideration to supplementing the existing Service with persons whose political views are in sympathy with those of the present Government?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will give notice of that.
Will the hon. Gentleman repudiate now the suggestion that—[ Interruption .] Does he agree with the suggestion that civil servants of any Department should be chosen on account of their political views?
I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) put a rather hasty supplementary question. I know him well enough to know that he is not suggesting that political affiliation as distinct from capacity shall ever be a test for appointment.
Trieste (Frontier Dispute)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps are being taken by the deputies of the Foreign Ministers represented at the London Conference last September to settle the question of the future of Trieste and the Italo-Yugoslav frontier.
Certain steps are being discussed by the deputies, but I would prefer not to make any statement until the Governments affected are in a position to make a joint announcement.
Has the Commission, which I believe has been set up by the deputies, already left this country on the way to Trieste, to investigate the frontier question there?
I should think that would be a subject covered by the general announcement.
Austria (South Tyrol-And Carinthia)
asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the policy of His Majesty's Government with regard to the inclusion of the South Tyrol in the Austrian Republic and with regard to the province of Carinthia remaining as part of the Republic.
I have no statement to make about the future of the South Tyrol which is a matter for settlement in the Peace Treaty with Italy, the preparation of which is at present under discussion. As regards the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the terms of His Majesty's Government's recognition of the Austrian Government.
Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the South Tyrol is by race and inclination overwhelmingly Austrian?
I repeat that the question of the Southern Tyrol is a matter for the peace settlement.
Egypt (Sterling Holdings, Census)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received from the Egyptian Government, or otherwise, any explanation of the purpose of the census of claims in sterling, owned by residents in Egypt, in so far as it affects British subjects; and whether he will make a statement.
The stated object of the Egyptian census of sterling holdings is to obtain statistical information, apparently for use in any discussion which may arise out of the Anglo-American Loan Agreement regarding the adjustment of Egypt's sterling balances. No exception can be taken to a measure designed to obtain information for such a purpose. My right hon. Friend is, however, watching the situation with a view to protecting the interests of British residents in Egypt, should any occasion arise therefor.
Before my hon. Friend leaves his Questions, would he take note of the fact, and convey to his right hon. Friend the fact, that almost all his answers today have been loudly cheered by the Tory Opposition, and by nobody on this side of the House?
Housing Components (Transport Priority)
asked the Minister of War Transport what arrangements are in operation to ensure that goods required for housing sites receive due priority in transit; and when he anticipates that it will be possible to reinstate the Blue Arrow service.
Instructions have been given that goods required for housing sites shall be accorded a high degree of priority in transit both by road and by rail. The Blue Arrow Service was a special facility provided for goods sent by passenger train. I regret that it is impracticable in present conditions to reinstate the service.
Is the Minister able to give any indication whether, and, if so, when, he will be able to reinstate the Blue Arrow Service this year?
I cannot state specifically whether it will be inaugurated this year, but this and other restorations of services are under consideration from time to time by the Railway Executive.
Before the right hon. Gentleman considers the question of services of this kind, will he do something to "buck up" our ordinary services in this country?
Roads
Accidents
asked the Minister of War Transport if he will state the number of road accidents which took place in 1945, with the number of persons killed or injured in cases where drivers of vehicles involved failed to stop and the number of such cases where the drivers of such vehicles have subsequently been traced.
The reports on road accidents submitted to my Department by the police relate to deaths and injuries; and I regret that the information for which my hon. Friend has asked as to the total number of road accidents is not available. The number of killed, however, for 1945 was 5,256, and injured 133,042.
Can the hon. Gentleman say in how many of these cases there were prosecutions, in how many there were convictions, and what sentences were imposed?
I am afraid that I cannot without notice, and I very much doubt whether the information is available.
May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he does not agree that when drivers fail to stop after accidents they should be properly designated "enemies of the community," and will be press for the restoration to the vocabulary of pedestrians and drivers alike of the words "Care, chivalry, and courtesy"?
Surfacing
asked the Minister of War Transport what active steps he is taking to abolish dangerous road surfaces and especially wooden sets.
In conjunction with the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, my Department is continually experimenting with various types of road paving and surfacing, investigating their behaviour under different conditions, and seeking means of reducing tendencies to become slippery. It would not be right to regard all wood block paving as dangerous, or to assume that effective methods of surfacing such paving to avoid it becoming slippery are not available.
Will the Minister say when he proposes to get on with this job of putting down safe surfaces, because that will do much more than all these expensive and elaborate campaigns of Press advertising?
The hon Member will appreciate that there are many years of arrears in the standard of maintenance during the war, but provisions are being actively made now to overcome these arrears of maintenance.
Will the Minister encourage authorities to put up notices to draw the attention of drivers to sudden changes of road surfaces, as many accidents occur owing to a sudden change from a non-slippery surface to a slippery surface?
Is the Minister aware that surfaces are being made today which are slippery and are going to be dangerous in the future?
I am not aware of that. With regard to the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Penrith and Cockermouth (Lieut.-Colonel Dower) I will bear his suggestion in mind.
Car Upholstery Repairs
asked the Minister of War Transport under what authority the Southern Regional Maintenance and Certifying Officer and his subordinates continue to issue instructions after 1st January, 1946, that the quota of materials for car upholstery repairs is not to be used on any repair work except those cars with E coupons, or with a priority letter from his Department.
The delivery of cotton yarn is controlled by the Control of the Cotton Industry (No. 23) Order, 1941. Owing to the demands for clothing and for purposes essential to our economic recovery, the quantity of cotton yarn which can be made available for car upholstering material is strictly limited. It is, therefore, necessary to ensure that the allocation of this material is restricted to the maintenance of vehicles engaged on essential work.
Public Service Vehicles (Second-hand Sales)
asked the Minister of War Transport the extent to which second-hand public service vehicles have been sold since the removal of control.
I regret that I am not in possession of this information.
Will the Minister get some information on this point, and give it to the House at an early date?
I hesitate to promise that, because I do not think any useful purpose would be served in going back over this problem.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of these vehicles are standing in the open and are deteriorating?
Pedestrian Crossings
asked the Minister of War Transport the respective duties and obligations imposed by his regulations on motorists and pedestrians when passing over or through studded crossings.
The regulations governing wheeled traffic and pedestrians at studded crossings are set out in Statutory Rules and Orders, 1941, No. 397, a copy of which I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend. By an Order made under Regulation 70 of the Defence (General) Regulations (Statutory Rules and Orders, 1942, No. 854), the definition of a crossing place for the purposes of these regulations has, in effect, been extended to include a crossing place which is marked only by two lines of studs without any other traffic sign.
This shows the continuity of British policy. I got exactly the same answer five years ago from Sir John Gilmour. I want to know now whether the Minister will say precisely, in straight Basic English, who has priority on a studded crossing—the motorist or the pedestrian?
I am delighted that the hon. and gallant Gentleman expects more progress from a Labour Minister than from the Minister's predecessor. I do not think there is much doubt that the pedestrian has the right of way over a studded crossing.
Then will the Minister please issue direct instructions to motorists that pedestrians on studded crossings shall have priority?
Is not this a question of law upon which the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore) should consult his solicitor?
Questions
Victory March
asked the Prime Minister if he is now able to make a statement with regard to the Government's proposals for a victory march in London and the principal provincial cities.
I am not yet in a position to make a statement on this subject.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he saw in the Press over the weekend a very detailed programme of the intentions of the Government, and would it not be better if we were told them here?
I have already explained that as no decision has yet been come to on this matter, I am not in a position to make a statement, so obviously there is no authority for the statement made in the Sunday newspapers.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be in a position to make a statement on the matter?
In about a fortnight, perhaps.
Football Pools
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the large amount of guaranteed profits made by the football pools, he will consider nationalising them with a view to using the profits for the reconstruction of this country.
No, Sir. I do not think that this form of betting can be dealt with in isolation.
Is the Prime Minister aware that since I put this Question on the Order Paper, I have received dozens of letters from people who go in for these pools, and that if he were to carry out the suggestion, it would receive the overwhelming support of people who take part in these pools?
The short answer to that would be not to take part in the pools.
Is the Prime Minister aware that much time, energy, newsprint and money, and even bad temper, are expended on football pools, and would he not agree that all these, including bad temper, might be better used in other directions?
Agriculture
Wages
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the deadlock reached in regard to the farm workers' Application for an increase in the national minimum wage; and what steps he is taking to effect a settlement of this matter in order to ensure the success of the Government's agricultural policy and the food production campaign.
I have been asked to reply. I am aware of the findings of the Agricultural Wages Board on the recent application from the workers' side for an increase in the minimum agricultural wage. The board is constituted under Act of Parliament, and there is no statutory power for Ministers to review its decisions. I would, however, draw attention to the suggestion of the impartial members of the board that the two sides should consult together to draw up a scheme of grading so as to secure a more adequate recognition of special skill and responsibility among farm workers.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this matter has been dragging on for many years, and that there is considerable unrest at the delay in reaching a solution? Does he not think it is time that this was brought to an end?
The ordinary procedure is being gone through, namely, that once the board has reached a decision it is sent back to each county for their consideration, and there is nothing which I can do to speed up their own machinery.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the present unfortunate dispute is another reason why the Government should formulate a national wages policy?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that unless he is quick in arriving at a solution it will result in an avalanche of farm workers leaving the land, whether the Control of Engagement Order is removed or not, and this can only result in a considerable reduction of food production which this country certainly cannot afford?
The Minister of Labour has made it clear in reply to a Question in the House of Commons on 13th December that there is no intention of departing from the existing policy of entrusting the responsibility for wage regulations to the traditional and well-tried system of joint voluntary negotiations. Government intervention would be contrary to this policy and destructive of the existing machinery in agriculture and other industries.
Rabbit Trapping
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will now give an indication of when he intends to withdraw the facilities which were given during the war for the use of spring traps to catch rabbits in the country; and whether, in view of the unnecessary cruelty caused thereby and the availability of alternative means of destroying rabbits, he will take early action in the matter.
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will state the nature of the orders issued by his Department modifying Section 5 of the Prevention of Damage by Rabbits and Hares Act, 1939; and whether, in view Of the damage to dogs and other animals from spring traps, he will now revoke all such orders made.
I will, with permission answer this Question and No. 51 together. After seeking the views of my county war agricultural executive committees on the effect which the withdrawal of authority to allow open trapping would have on the campaign for the destruction of rabbits, I am satisfied that, bearing in mind the continued seriousness of the food situation, I would not be justified in re-imposing at this stage complete prohibition of this method of destroying a most serious pest of food crops. I have, therefore, decided that for the time being the Order will remain in force, but I am imposing certain further restrictions on Committees governing the issue of permits to set traps in the open, to ensure that the practice is only authorised to the extent that is absolutely necessary and in circumstances where no other means of controlling the rabbit pest is practicable. I will arrange for a statement to be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT as soon as possible showing the conditions on which Committees will henceforth be authorised to issue permits.
I do not want to criticise the right hon. Gentleman's reply but would he remember that there are several alternatives to this barbarous method, and may I ask him to go back and study those alternatives and to go further into this matter?
I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that I have the greatest sympathy with his object, and it is only because of the reply from the county agricultural executive committees and the grave food position that this is going to be continued, but I hope only temporarily.
Hill Farming
asked the Minister of Agriculture if his Department has formulated any long-term policy for marginal hill farming.
The Government's long-term policy for agriculture applies to hill farming as well as to lowland farming. In addition it is proposed to intro- duce as soon as practicable, legislation to give effect with suitable modifications to recommendations made by the two Committees on Hill Sheep Farming, in England and Wales and in Scotland respectively, that submitted their reports towards the end of 1943.
Hill Cattle Subsidy
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether a decision has yet been reached with regard to the long-term policy to encourage cattle breeding by means of the hill cattle subsidy; what the subsidy is to be; and for how long it will be paid.
I regret that I am not in a position to make a statement on the future of the hill cattle subsidy scheme, but it is proposed to pay a subsidy again this year of the same amount, namely £3 per head, and on much the same conditions as in 1945.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider giving more encouragement to the breeding of cattle on hill farms through a larger subsidy for breeding stock?
I can assure my hon. Friend all those matters will be taken into account in the long-term policy.
And nothing will happen.
Market Gardening
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he has prepared a long-term policy for market gardening which will give to that branch of agriculture the advantages of the policy outlined in his announcement of 15th November, 1945, for other branches of agriculture.
Market gardening does not lend itself to Government assistance by the method of guaranteed minimum prices applied to the main agricultural products. I am anxious to encourage the industry in its efforts to improve marketing facilities for vegetables, as this offers in my view the best contribution which can be made to the future welfare of this class of production. Technical advice and research will I trust also be made available to an increasing extent.
Does the Minister's policy include any imports from abroad?
I am afraid that question does not arise out of this.
County Committees (Fanning Operations)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the fact that it is not possible to provide balance sheets showing the profit and loss statements of the W.A.E.C 's throughout the country with the staff available, he will move for the appointment of a Select Committee of the House of Commons to examine them and make a Report.
No, Sir. As I indicated in reply to the hon. Member's question of 28th January, the information is not available for the preparation of profit and loss accounts in respect of the farming operations of committees in the war period. The hon. Member will be pleased to learn that committees have now been asked to prepare accounts, on an income and expenditure basis, covering all their activities as from 1st April next.
Am I to understand that there is to be concealment from this honourable House of the spending of large sums of public money? Never in the history of Westminster have we been refused the examination of such an important matter.
Is it not the case that a number of these committees have carried out demonstrative and experimental work, and that it would be most improper that they should be judged on that basis?
Is the Minister aware that millions of pounds are being spent by these agricultural committees, and that the public want to know what is the total loss as these committees cannot be allowed to go on unfairly competing with the individual farmer?
The Minister is not aware of anything of the kind. I am aware, however, as are most hon. Members, that the question between 1940 and 1945 was to get food no matter how we got it, and since the accounts sought by the hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) are not available, it is simply a waste of time judging the matter.
I am not trying to judge them at all, but I simply want to know whether we are entitled to have these accounts as Members of the House.
Barley
asked the Minister of Agriculture what acreage was devoted to the cultivation of bailey in each of the years 1938 to 1945, inclusive; and what acreage is contemplated for 1946.
As the answer includes a table of figures I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether he expects an increase or a decrease in what is produced this year?
No reliable estimate can be furnished at present with regard to the 1946 crop.
Following is the table :
Acreage of barley in England and Wales 1938–1945. '000 acres 1938 886 1939 910 1940 1,218 1941 1,342 1942 1,364 1943 1,558 1944 1,721 1945 1,984
No reliable estimate can be furnished at present of the acreage of barley for 1946.
Sugar Beet Factories
asked the Minister of Agriculture if, in the siting of sugar-beet factories in the postwar period, he will have regard to the claims of the farmers in North Norfolk, where there is a big acreage devoted to sugar-beet growing and, meanwhile, give consideration to the transport rates, with a view to easing the hardship on many North Norfolk growers of this valuable crop.
Yes, Sir. In any review of the siting of sugar beet factories it will no doubt be necessary to consider the competing claims of various parts of the country. As regards transport rates, I would remind my hon. Friend that growers are already relieved of rail freight in excess of 7s. per ton.
Questions
Newfoundland (Dietary)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what action has so far been taken in Newfoundland to deal with malnutrition resulting from dietary deficiencies; and when the Report on the whole subject is to be published.
Acting on expert advice, the Newfoundland Government have taken a number of steps, including the fortification of flour and margarine, to overcome the lack of balance in the normal diet of sections of the Newfoundland people. In addition they invited a committee consisting of experts on nutritional questions from the United Kingdom, Canada and the United States of America to visit Newfoundland in the summer of 1944 and to undertake a survey in the island. The report of this committee was published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal in the spring of 1945, and it has since been the subject of detailed study by the Commission of Government. A further visit to Newfoundland was undertaken in August of last year by Dr. Cuthbertson, now Director of the Rowett Research Institute, who, during the course of his discussions with the Newfoundland authorities, put forward a number of preliminary recommendations for their consideration. Dr. Cuthbertson's full report is expected shortly.
As it appears that the necessary problem is now being dealt with by reinforcements of foodstuffs and synthetic vitamins, does not my hon. Friend agree that that is rather obscuring the nature of the problem in view of the fact that there is a normal intake of vitamins and still the symptoms are manifest? Will he look into the matter with a view to sending out another Commission?
We are following up the various reports that have been given to us, and are making further inquiries, as well as doing our very best both to improve the diet of the people and to try to reinforce it.
There is a growing tendency again to make supplementary questions longer and longer.
Goods Trains (Divisions)
asked the Minister of War Transport the number of railway goods trains of non-vacuum fitted stock which became divided en route during 1945; and the extent of any casualties direct or indirect arising therefrom.
There were 33 such divisions in 1945 which involved more than three hours' delay to traffic but none resulted in serious casualty.
Will my right hon. Friend consider the possibility of extending the use of vacuum fitted stock, especially for long distance goods train traffic?
Yes, Sir.
Shipping (Great Britain-Northern Ireland Service)
asked the Minister of War Transport whether he has any statement to make as to the resumption of passenger services from Great Britain to the port of Londonderry.
There is no early prospect of a vessel being available to resume the Glasgow/Londonderry Passenger Service. I would, however, remind the hon. Member that the present passenger services between Glasgow/Belfast, Stranraer/Larne, Liverpool/Belfast and Heysham/Belfast provide 24 sailings a week in each direction.
Is the Minister aware of the very great use which is made of this service in summer time, and cannot he make a special effort as this is the only passenger service to the port?
I can promise it as soon as it is possible, but I do not feel that it should have undue priority over other services.
asked the Minister of War Transport what functions are at present being fulfilled by the mail steamers "Duke of York" and "Duke of Rothesay"; and how soon will these ships be available for their normal employment as cross-channel steamers between England and Northern Ireland.
The two vessels in question are employed between Harwich and the Hook in the movement of Service personnel to and from the Continent. This movement must continue for some considerable time, and I am at present unable to give any indication when the two vessels may be released for return to their normal employment.
Is not the Minister aware that the tourist industry in Northern Ireland was entirely stopped during the war, and that unless these ships, or their equivalent in passenger carrying vessels, are provided the tourist trade will not be able to start this summer?
I am very well aware of that, but it has been made quite plain in the House over and over again that Service requirements, particularly during the next six months, must be met before we meet demands of the kind outlined by the hon. Member.
If I make a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman as to ships which might be used, will he treat it as sympathetically as if he had thought of it himself?
Royal Air Force (Demobilisation)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he now anticipates whether all airmen and airwomen of the Royal Air Force will be out of the Service by next May; and whether he has any statement to make.
The extraordinary rumour that all airmen and all airwomen could be released by next May, thus reducing the strength of the Royal Air Force to zero, appears to have been aroused by a headline reading, "All Out by May is R.A.F. Aim," which appeared in the "Daily Express" of 23rd January. I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for giving me this opportunity to point out the obvious impossibility of this, and of commenting on the heartless irresponsibility of raising, however unintentionally, such unfounded expectations.
As the House knows, the Royal Air Force and the Services generally are going through a time of difficulty and stress during a period of large-scale demobilisation. At such a time the nation has surely the right to appeal to the whole Press to take the utmost care to refrain from raising fantastic expectations—particularly among the relatives of Service men and women—expectations which must inevitably be dashed to the ground again.
Would not my hon. Friend agree that the last "all out" headline in the "Daily Express" referred to the Tory Party?
Would my hon. Friend do what he can to ensure that all newspapers, except those which are deliberately mischievous, should make a correction of any false statement with as much publicity as is given to the original mistake?
We certainly do what we can, but it is very little, I fear.
Would my hon. Friend consider circulating the statement he has just made to all Royal Air Force units at home and overseas, as Members are already receiving letters stating, in very strong terms, that we have let them down—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I expected a cheer from the opposite side—when we are doing all we can to see that justice is done to these men and women? Such misunderstandings as these cause heartaches.
Yes, Sir, my statement will go out in a "demob" form this evening.
Do the Government propose to make any direct approach to the paper whose name has been put before the House, and to beg of them to see that such statements, which cause so much misunderstanding, especially on the part of the R.A.F., should be entirely removed? Will my hon. Friend approach the paper with a request that they should proceed on a different line?
No, Sir, I think the best appeal I can make to the Press is that made in this House. I have appealed to the Press to take the utmost care in this matter.
Bills Presented
Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill,
"to make fresh arrangements for the making of contributions grants and loans in connection with the provision of housing accommodation; to provide for matters subordinate to that purpose; to amend the enactments which relate to the making of contributions in respect of housing accommodation; to amend the law relating to the housing accounts of local authorities; and to facilitate the provision of housing accommodation in the Isles of Scilly," presented by Mr. Aneurin Bevan; supported by the Attorney-General, Mr. Glenvil Hall and Mr. Key; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 68.]
Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Bill,
"to make fresh provision for the making of contributions out of the Exchequer and by local authorities in respect of housing accommodation provided for the working classes in Scotland and for the making of payments and advances to the housing association approved for the purposes of section two of the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act, 1938; to amend Part II of the Housing (Agricultural Population) (Scotland) Act, 1938; to amend the provisions of the Housing (Scotland) Acts, 1925 to 1944, relating to the making of contributions in respect of housing accommodation, to housing accounts, and to the disposal of land; to enable county councils to provide housing accommodation outside their districts; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. Westwood; supported by The Lord Advocate, Mr. Glenvil Hall, Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Thomas Fraser; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed.
Orders of the Day
Ministers of the Crown (Transfer of Functions) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Major MILNER in the Chair]
Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 2.—(Change of title of Ministers.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
3.20 p.m.
I would like the Minister to explain one matter in this Clause which does not seem to be at all clear. As hon. Members are aware, under the present Constitution a subject, generally speaking, has no right to sue the Crown, that is, a Government Department, in contract or tort. In other words, if a bargain is made by a Government Department, and that Department breaks the bargain, a subject has no right of redress in the courts. Similarly, if the Crown does him some damage, which the law calls a tort, then a subject also has no right of redress in the courts. Various devices have been adopted by the Crown to get over this difficulty, but they are only devices, and there is still no legal right to sue the Crown. But it so happens that, in the case of some Government Departments, there is a right to sue the Crown.
In the case of the Ministry of Transport, under the Act which set up that Ministry, a subject was given the right to sue the Crown, both in contract and tort. In the case of the Ministry of Supply, in matters relating to stores, a subject can sue the Department in contract, but not in tort. In the case of the War Department, in matters relating to stores, a subject can sue the Crown in contract only. In the case of the Air Ministry the position is not quite clear, but I think it probable that a subject has the same rights as he would have against the War Department. Under this Bill, if duties are transferred from a Department against which a subject has a right of action to one against which he had no right of action, then there will be no right of action by a subject against the Department to which the duties are transferred. So, in effect, this Bill seems to take away from a subject—
The hon. and gallant Member is talking about the Bill. I understood he was pressing an inquiry about Clause 2, to which he must confine himself.
I should have said, "this Clause" takes away the right which a subject has now against the Crown in the case of a number of Government Departments. I feel that the Ministers may not wish to do that, and that this may possibly be an oversight. They may say that there is a saving, by Clause 1 (3) under which liabilities incurred by any Minister of the Grown are saved. But those are liabilities already incurred, and it would not be within the power of a subject to proceed under Clause 2, in respect of liabilities which are not already incurred when the Bill has passed into law.
Clause 2 deals only with the question of the change of title of a Minister. The hon. and gallant Member has just been talking about the question of liability, which I do not think has any relevance to Clause 2.
Clause 2 ( b ) states that legal proceedings may not be commenced before the date on which the Order takes effect. In my view, this is not a Clause which merely affects the title of a Minister; it also affects the transfer of functions. Therefore, if a function is transferred from a Ministry against which a subject now has the right to proceed before the courts, to a Ministry against which he has no such right, that means that the subject is deprived of the rights which he now has. I do not know whether this point has been overlooked, but I think it is one which should be cleared up, because it affects the privileges and rights of subjects of this country.
I think my hon. and gallant Friend is under a complete misapprehension about Clause 2. It has nothing whatever to do with transfer of functions. All it does is to set up a procedure whereby the name of a Minister or Ministry can be changed. The words "legal proceedings" amount to this: Supposing a Minister has had one name, has become involved in legal proceedings under that name, and then his name is changed. The legal proceedings will continue against him, but will continue under his new, instead of his old, name. It does not alter the liability of the Minister if he is under a liability, or create a liability where there is not one, or take away a liability where there is one.
I cannot see how my hon. and learned Friend can divorce Clause 2 from Clause 1, which definitely deals with transfer of functions. If you have a transfer of functions, it means that any rights which have accrued in one Department would not be available if those functions were transferred to another Department. These Clauses do not deal merely with an alteration of title; they also deal with an alteration of functions. I think my hon. and learned Friend has answered me in far too narrow a way. Is the Crown taking away from a subject the privileges which he now enjoys in the case of certain Departments?
I am sorry that my hon. and gallant Friend thought I was answering him in a narrow way or that I misunderstood what he said. I did not. Clause 2 stands by itself, and relates only to style or title and nothing else. We have already dealt, in Committee, with Clause 1 and the Clause on which my hon. and gallant Friend was speaking was not that Clause at all. Suppose a Minister has been called, "The Minister for Home Defence," and then his name is changed to something completely different, and that while he was called, "The Minister for Home Defence," somebody started legal proceedings against him. That Minister being liable to proceedings, the mere fact that he changes his name does not bring it about that he can no longer be sued. All that happens is that he has to be sued in the continued proceedings under his new name and not under his old name. That is the only way in which there seems to me to be any question arising on Clause 2 at all and that is the explanation of the words "or legal proceedings" in Clause 2 ( b ). With regard to the general question that my hon. Friend raised, if a Minister is suppressed then clearly any right of action against that suppressed Minister would not survive his demise.
3.30 p.m.
I am in as much difficulty as the hon. Member opposite in following the argument of the Solicitor-General. It is perfectly clear that, under Clause 2 ( b ), if I, as an individual citizen with the right to sue, say, the Minister of Works, have, as at the date when the Order is made under this Measure, begun proceedings against the Minister of Works, I may continue those proceedings against the Minister to whom the functions of the Minister of Works are transferred. On that I am quite clear, and I imagine the hon. Member opposite would be clear also. What I am not clear about is this. Suppose I had an appeal against the first Minister, the Minister of Works, and some of his functions are transferred to—
The hon. Member is wrong.
No Minister shall have the temerity to say that I am wrong, until he has heard the end of my argument. If he does, there is the possibility of violent conflict between us. I am perfectly clear. What I want to know is this. Suppose I, as John Citizen, have a right of action against the Minister of Works in respect of certain functions he now exercises. If his functions are transferred to the Minister of Health, against whom, at the moment, I have no right of action, and I want to start an action after the date of the Order, will the Solicitor-General assure me that I, as a citizen, will have the same rights against the Minister of Health, in respect of those functions, which have been transferred from the Office of Works, as I would have had, if these functions had remained with the Office of Works. Behind this point, which does relate to Clause 1 ( b ) and Clause 2 ( b ), there is another very important matter with which I hope the Solicitor-General will be able to help us. It is the question of regulating generally the situation with regard to the right of the citizen to deal with the Crown. I hope I may say, without being out of order, that these difficulties show the necessity for the very early introduction of the Crown Proceedings Bill which deals with the rights of the subject vis-Ã -vis the Crown.
The question raised, I must repeat, does not in any way relate to Clause 2, but I do not want, in answer to what the hon. Gentleman has said, to give him merely a narrow answer. I will, if the Committee will bear with me, answer the question he has raised though it does not come under this Clause. As he is aware, some Ministers are made expressly liable in tort, some are not. It is impossible a priori to give an answer which would fit all circumstances but generally speaking, the position would be this. Supposing a Minister, who by statute is liable in tort for actions committed by those persons who act on his behalf, commits a tort or a civil wrong against a citizen and, thereafter, the function in the exercise of which he committed the tort, is transferred to some other Minister, the right of action in respect of that tort would continue to exist against the original Minister who committed the wrongful act. That would be, I should say, a correct statement of the law, generally speaking. But I must repeat that it does not arise out of this Clause which deals only with names.
I am quite clear that if a Minister has committed a tort in the past I can still proceed against him, even though, under this Bill, his functions have been transferred to someone else. What I want to know is this. Suppose the new Minister commits a tort next week, after the introduction of this Bill, shall I have the same rights against him as I have had against the other before the functions were transferred?
Answer.
May I say a word? We are dealing, in this Clause, with a change of title. Suppose we were, in our wisdom, to change the title of the Minister of National Insurance to "Minister of Social Insurance"—which was the title I should have preferred in the last Parliament. That is all that is dealt with and therefore legal proceedings would continue under the latter title. It is quite irrelevant to deal with the question of the transfer of functions. Hon. Members have been a little slow on this. We have already passed Clause 1 in Committee, and I suggest that it is wholly irrelevant to bring it in now. The right time to raise the point would have been on Clause 1. In Clause 2 we are dealing with a narrowly confined problem, and I suggest that the Committee must appreciate that point. I am sorry if hon. Members have "missed the 'bus" but we really cannot alter irrelevance into relevance.
The. Front Bench are going from bad to worse. Clause 1 ( b ) provides for the possible transfer of functions from some Ministers to others. That Clause has been passed but what is now being raised is quite different. Granted the exercise of the powers under Clause 1 ( b ), is the effect of the transfer to be to take away the rights of some members of the public?
That really does not arise. I have given hon. Members a good deal of latitude and I hope they will accept my decision.
May I seek your guidance, Major Milner? There obviously should be some part of this Bill on which we could get a straight answer to our point. Would it be in Order if the matter were raised at a later stage.
That I cannot say, of course. Later stages are a matter for Mr. Speaker. It appears clear to me now that Clause 2 does not, in fact, deal with the transfer of functions, and therefore some of the matters which have been raised are not strictly in Order. I have given hon. Members a good deal of latitude and the Committee have had the advantage of hearing the Lord Privy Seal and the Solicitor-General. They must be content with that.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 3.—(Supplementary provisions as to Orders.)
I beg to move, in page 2, line 41, leave out from "Council," to "shall," in line 42.
May I suggest that for the convenience of the Committee the following Amendment—in page 3, line 1, leave out subsection (2)—be considered at the same time?
That is intelligent anticipation on the part of the Lord Privy Seal, since it is what I was about to suggest. I had warned the right hon Gentleman that I would raise the point again and as the two Amendments go together, perhaps we may discuss them together. What the Bill does with regard to the Ministers is that it provides an Order in Council either for dissolving a Government Department, or for the transferring of functions, or some of the functions from one Department to another. In the case of an Order in Council, dissolving a Government Department, provision is made in the Bill that that may be done only as the result of an Address from each House, that is to say by affirmative Resolution procedure. In the case of the transfer of functions, however, it provides that it is enough for negative Resolution in either House, to effect a change in the Order in Council. The Lord President of the Council in describing the Bill, said that the view which the Government had taken was that the distribution of particular functions between the various Departments was primarily a matter for domestic convenience in the administration of the Government of the day. I am not sure whether that is entirely true, but I accept it for the moment. He also took the view that although merely a matter of domestic convenience, the changes of the distribution of functions as between Ministers are a matter of interest to Parliament; therefore, it is right that they should come before Parliament. With that I agree.
The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that he considered the complete disappearance of a State Department a rather more serious matter than the mere transfer of function. Because it is a more serious matter, he proposes that an affirmative Resolution procedure should be introduced. It is established, therefore, at any rate in the view of the present Government, that affirmative Resolutions are to be used for more important and serious affairs. Granted that there is a case for the transfer of functions between Departments, I take the view that those changes are the more important matter; the dissolution of a Department, as a matter of fact, involves a transference, because there is practically bound to be some residual function at the moment of dissolution. It may be tapered off, but it might be the case that there was some litigation proceeding. It is very hard to say, that at a particular given time, you can shut down a Department, and that everybody will leave the building, and nothing will be heard of it again. A Department cannot be dissolved, without taking some sort of powers for dealing with matters which might be left over. I am glad to see that the Solicitor-General appears to agree with that view.
That leads me to the point that the transfer of functions is equally important, and that it is, therefore, equally desirable there should be an affirmative Resolution in that case. The Solicitor-General was good enough to explain his point of view, and I have considered it a good deal since the matter was last discussed. He expressed the opinion that he could conceive-all sorts of minor functions, which might be changed from one Department to another; he instanced the Home Office as comprising a "number of functions under the Factory Acts," which are important but rather minor compared with the greater problems of the Department itself. That is quite true. I might hazard a guess at one or two of the things which the right hon. Gentleman had in mind and which have been the subject of discussion in the past. But the fact remains that the transfer of any functions from one Department to another, is not done on the spur of the moment, but as the result of a good deal of consideration and thought from several points of view. For instance, the Treasury may be concerned. If the Solicitor-General is afraid' that the House would be inundated with affirmative Resolutions because all Departments would want to change a part of their functions here, there and everywhere, I suggest that that may be a good debating point, but I do not think it would work that way. These things, as I say, are not done on the spur of the moment. It would be decided that the Home Office should discharge such and such a function, under such and such a Section of the Factory Acts, and so on—if for no other reason, than because of administrative tidiness, and to make it easier to deal with the two Departments. They would pile them up to bring to the House, a number at a time.
345 P.m.
It would have a further advantage, which of course is not particularly concerned with this Bill, but is a matter which the Committee has to take into account, and which has been raised here during the last fortnight. That is the increasing burden of work which we are putting upon the Committee on Statutory Rules and Orders. I should think that, human beings being what they are, our colleagues, if they know that a particular Order had to come before the House anyhow, and that the House had therefore to direct its own attention to it, would not take up quite so much time in scrutinising it upstairs, as if it were something which would not automatically come before the House. Being an affirmative Resolution, it would be the Government's responsibility to put it before the House. In that case, I imagine that in course of time, when much more is put upon them, the affirmative Resolution Orders would be, more or less automatically sent down to the House, unless they were something very outrageous—which in the nature of the particular case is not very likely—and it would relieve them of a little part of their burden.
To sum up the argument, I think the Minister agrees with me, that the transfer of function may be very important. It has to happen, even when a Government Department is dissolved, and as provision is made for an affirmative Resolution in the latter case, so it should be made in the former case. If that is agreed, obviously Subsection 2 of Clause 3 cuts it out; it is unnecessary that it should remain in the Bill. I hope that further consideration of this matter will convince the Government of the lightness of our views, and that they will accept the Amendment.
There is another point which I think should be raised on these two Subsections. Under Subsection (1), both Houses have to present an Address to His Majesty, praying that the Order be made, but Subsection (2) says that when the House resolves that the Order in Council be annulled, that it shall thenceforth be annulled. We had an experience recently when the hon. and gallant Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Major Boyd-Carpenter), moved a Prayer just before the Recess. He was dealing with gambling houses and so on, and in spite of the fact that the Government accepted the Prayer, and the Resolution was accepted by the House, the Privy Council met two days later and made an Order in Council, annulling the previous Order in Council. The wording of Subsection (2) is:
Perhaps the Solicitor-General will be able to tell the Committee a little about this matter. I think it is true to say that, until 1939, if either House of Parliament wished to bring an Order in Council to an end it did so by means of a Prayer which was in terms like these: "That this House humbly prays His Majesty to annul" the Order in question. Since then, the Prayer has taken the form which is embodied in Subsection (2) and which provides that the Order in question is thenceforth annulled and shall become void. That is a change from the procedure which existed seven or eight years ago, and I would direct the attention of the Committee to it. By Subsection (1), when an affirmative Resolution is required, the House presents an Address to His Majesty praying that an Order be made, but when it becomes a question of annulling an Order, the Prayer takes the form that if the House agrees to its being annulled, the Order shall thenceforth become null and void.
Will the Solicitor-General say whether it is proposed to go on with this new procedure or whether it is just some new draftsman's idea? Obviously, there is a distinction here between the procedure when the House prays His Majesty to do something, and the procedure when it wishes to annul an Order in Council, and I should like an explanation.
Perhaps I can help the hon. Member, in respect of the most interesting point he has raised. What he has in mind is that, up to now, the House has not been able to resolve what should happen to an Order in Council made by somebody else. The House can only pray that something may happen. The hon. Member takes exception to the fact that the House may resolve that somebody else's Order shall cease to be.
Yes. The negative procedure is not very old. I have already called attention to the distinction between the procedure in Subsection (1) and that in Subsection (2). The position is different from the old days, when His Majesty had to annul an Order by another Order in Council. I do not know whether the procedure in Subsection (2) is good or bad, but I should think it is bad because, having once got an Order in Council on the files, we need a method of cleaning it up from the lawyer's point of view, taking it off by means of another Order in Council saying that His Majesty on a certain day annulled the Order made some time before. I hope that the Solicitor-General will have something to say on the matter.
When the Solicitor-General replies, perhaps he will deal with the interesting and important point raised by the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles). If the second Amendment is accepted, however, the point will not arise because it provides for the excision from the Bill of Subsection (2). I hope that either the Lord Privy Seal or the Solicitor-General will indicate willingness to accept the Amendment. The Committee are being asked to agree to transfer from the House of Commons to the Executive considerable power which previously could be exercised only through legislation. On the Second Reading of the Bill, it was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman who was then in charge of the Bill, that there was no desire to get rid of Parliamentary control, but that the Bill provided a more convenient method of dealing with affairs today.
The Amendment provides that any Order in Council made under the Bill shall require an affirmative Resolution. I submit to the Committee that only in that way can adequate control be maintained by the House of Commons over the Executive in this most important matter of Ministerial functions. Reference has just been made by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) to the fact that the machinery of this House for investigating Statutory Rules and Orders is not functioning fully. I would remind the Committee that if the negative Resolution procedure remains, that investigating committee will be, substantially, the only safeguard of Parliamentary control over Statutory Rules and Orders, Orders in Council and the other flora, fauna and phenomena of that sort which are being emitted by the Executive at a very high muzzle velocity every day. I do not think that any Member of the Committee will contradict me when I say it is impossible for the ordinary Member of this House to keep track of a tithe of those Measures.
If Parliamentary control is to be maintained by the House of Commons, the House is dependent upon the watchdog committee, the Joint Select Committee which is presided over by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ayr and Bute, Northern (Sir C. Mac Andrew). If it is suggested that that committee is adequate safeguard under the Bill, I would remind the Committee of what was said by the Chairman of that committee on 24th January: mittee, but whether the safeguard of the Select Committee for negative Resolution procedure is adequate or not, from the point of view of this Bill.
4 p.m.
If it is not adequate, then the only remedy is to accept this Amendment, and make it a matter for affirmative Resolution. I am perfectly certain that the Lord Privy Seal does not wish to carry the matter to a point at which the Executive will, in this most important matter, override the legislature. I suggest that there is an overwhelming case that the present safeguards in the Bill are inadequate, and therefore, I hope that, having had opportunity to consider the matter, the right hon. Gentleman will announce that he accepts this Amendment. Perhaps I may add that, if he does not, I shall hastily hand in a manuscript Amendment—I do not know whether you will accept it, Major Milner—to change the Short Title of the Bill from "Ministers of the Crown (Transfer of Functions) Bill" to "House of Commons (Transfer of Functions) Bill."
I hope the Committee will not accept this Amendment. I think it is only fair to the Committee to correct some of the suggestions that have been made this afternoon and on previous occasions, about the work of the Scrutiny Committee, as it is colloquially called, which from my experience as a member of that Committee, do not correspond with the facts. This Amendment is supported both by the mover and the supporter largely on the allegation that it is impossible for the Scrutiny Committee to do the work which it has undertaken by Resolution of the House of Commons to do.
On a point of Order. I hope my hon. Friend did not think I was supporting the Amendment; I was not.
No, I was referring to the argument of the hon. and gallant Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Major Boyd-Carpenter), whose name appears second to the Amendment on the Order Paper. I was saying that the case made for the Amendment relies very largely on the supposition that, first the only Parliamentary safeguard in this matter is the existence of the Scrutiny Committee; and, secondly, that it is impossible for the Scrutiny Committee to fulfil its functions adequately. Neither statement is accurate. In the first place, I think the Committee should remember that this subject of delegated legislation and Parliamentary control over delegated legislation by the machinery of negative resolution has had a long history, and dates for a considerable period prior to the constitution of the Scrutiny Committee, which was only appointed in 1944 to assist the House. The existence of the Scrutiny Committee does not detract from the duty, still less from the opportunity, that every Member of the House has of examining at any time any Statutory Rules and Orders, and putting down any Resolution against them. However, listening to remarks that have been made during the last few days, one would think that it devolves exclusively upon the Scrutiny Committee to "vet" these Statutory Rules and Orders, that the Committee is so swamped with work that it cannot fulfil its functions and that, therefore, Parliamentary safeguards do not exist.
The hon. Gentleman has challenged my statement that the Select Committee is overworked. I would remind him that the Chairman has so reported to the House.
I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will realise that that statement is not in accordance with the facts which are that, some fortnight or so ago, the Chairman of the Select Committee expressed certain apprehensions about the work that would devolve upon the Select Committee at subsequent meetings. In fact, at its next meeting, the Select Committee had a large volume of work which it managed to do very satisfactorily, very successfully, and very expeditiously.
On a point of Order, Major Milner. Are we not getting on to rather dangerous ground in that the hon. Gentleman is telling us what has happened at a meeting of the Select Committee, before we get a report from that Committee? I do not think it does any harm in this case, but we do not want to allow to become a precedent references to the activities of committees before they report.
With great respect, Major Milner, may I say—
Strictly, of course, that is so, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Major Boyd-Carpenter) raised a question which evoked a reply. Broadly, an hon. Member should not divulge the proceedings of a Committee which has not, so far, reported to the House.
On a point of Order. My reference was to a statement made in this House, and had nothing to do with what happened in a Committee.
But, Major Milner, it will be within the recollection of this Committee that I was dealing with the interjection made by the hon. and gallant Member for Kingston-upon-Thames, and I was trying to explain to him the exact circumstances in which the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr and Bute Northern (Sir C. Mac Andrew), the Chairman of the Committee, expressed certain apprehensions. I take the view that it would be doing a great disservice to the House if the idea were to get abroad—and I think there is a danger of it—that the Scrutiny Committee is so overburdened with work that it cannot fulfil its duties expeditiously. I, for one, as a member of that Committee, do not accept that as the position at the present time. However, if it were the position, then that would not be an end of the matter. It is open to the Scrutiny Committee at any time, if the flow of Statutory Rules and Orders becomes so voluminous, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman imagines will be the case, to make a report to the House, and to make suggestions either for the enlargement of its membership, or for its duplication, or for making provision for it to meet in sub-committees to enable it to cope with the increasing volume of work which, I agree, may reasonably be expected.
It seems to me essential, in resisting this Amendment, to emphasise that the legislative programme of His Majesty's Government rightly involves an increasing resort to statutory delegation but, as a corollary, there must be maintained an effective degree of Parliamentary control. Therefore, it is essential that there should be adequate machinery for seeing that these Statutory Rules and Orders are watched, and when necessary, criticised. My submission is that that machinery exists at the present time and if, in the future, it is found to be ineffective, then it should be amplified and modified accordingly.
I also wish to say a word about the form these negative Resolutions should take. This has an important constitutional aspect. Under the scheme of delegated legislation to which we are now committed as a result of the Statutory Instruments Bill and other Measures which are continually being presented to the House, conferring powers on Ministers to legislate by Statutory Rules and Orders, the provisions are—as I think they always have been—that these Statutory Rules and Orders cease to have effect, on a Resolution being passed by the House. For some reason with which I am not familiar, the practice has grown up of referring to these Resolutions as Prayers, and I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kingston upon Thames was himself responsible for putting down his Motion, in the form of a Prayer instead of in the form of a Resolution. He was praying against one of the? Defence Regulations made under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, and he thought fit to put it down as a Prayer against a certain Order in Council, whereas the Act provides in respect of these Defence Regulations that:
On the question of whether it is necessary that matters of this kind need be dealt with by affirmative Resolution, I think that if ever there was a case which should be subject to negative Resolution it was this case, because if one matter more than another is likely to be brought to the attention of the House by some hon. Member, it is an Order dealing with the transfer of functions from one Minister to another. I should think it inconceivable that any such Order could slip through the meshes and not be dealt with under the procedure proposed in this Subsection. I hope the Committee will resist the Amendment.
I think there is a further point in distinguishing between a negative and an affirmative Resolution in that a negative Resolution would become operative and it is provided that anything done under the Order in Council subsequently only, shall be held to be invalid. One has to judge the nature of the Orders in Council which will be passed under this Section. Are they such that it will be inconvenient and anomalous and that if action is taken and the House decides that the Order in Council shall be annulled it will appear that the matter is left in the air? The Orders in Council envisaged under Subsection (2), namely, those providing for the transfer of functions of Ministers of the Crown, could obviously from that point of view be put under Subsection (1). Suppose the functions of a Minister of the Crown have been transferred, and during a period of 40 days or more when the House is not sitting action is taken and the House then decides that the Order be annulled. The legality is not in question but the possibility of having the Order annulled in those 40 or more days is one which the Committee should consider, in relation to whether the Resolution should be an affirmative instead of a negative one.
4.15 p.m.
I imagine the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) was thinking of cases in which there is a dissolution of a Department combined with the transfer of those residual functions which were vested in it at the date of its dissolution. I listened carefully to what the right hon. and gallant Gentleman said on the Second Reading of the Bill. There he gave an example of what he had in mind. He instanced the case of the abolition of the Ministry of Supply and the re-transfer of the whole of the ordering work for the Army back to the War Office. From what he said today, it is quite clear he is still thinking of that type of situation. In that case, there would, of necessity, have to be an affirmative Resolution. The Order in a case of that sort would have to be made under Clause (1), (2); that is the Subsection which provides that:
It is only the case, normally, of a transfer of comparatively minor function independently of the dissolution of a Department in which a negative Resolution is provided for in this Bill. During the, Second Reading Debate, I gave examples at random of the sorts of functions which might be transferred under a negative Resolution. For example, a trivial case might relate to the Checkweighing in Various Industries Act, which imposes on Ministers functions important in themselves but of comparatively small importance in relation to the general task which a Ministry has to carry out. The balance is exactly poised. The Bill is exactly correlated to the situation for which it is meant to provide. Where a Ministry is to be dissolved, the extra emphasis which is inherent in a positive Resolution, is necessary and both Houses must then by affirmative Resolution say that this shall be. But where it is the transfer of a function which might be comparatively unimportant, it would be quite inappropriate for an affirmative Resolution to be resorted to. This' is par excellence a case for negative Resolution.
I would like to assent to what the hon. Member for East Islington (Mr. E. Fletcher) said in regard to negative Resolutions. It is not as though a negative Resolution was a form of proceeding which divested Parliament of all control. As he pointed out, not only is it the province of the Committee, but the province of every hon. Member of this House, to examine these Orders and negative Resolution procedure is a method of bringing the matter to be done to the notice of the House for their approval, even though that approval is by silent assent. It would be wrong to say that when a thing is of importance one must of necessity resort to an affirmative Resolution, and must only resort to a negative Resolution for something of no importance. That is a complete misapprehension. Both are designed for the same matters but they differ to some extent in their procedure, in that in the one case the House can give a silent assent.
I ask the Committee to say that the Amendment should not succeed. The Bill is designed to make a distinction between those cases where the House ought affirmatively to give its assent, and those where silent assent is quite sufficient. After all, when you dissolve a Ministry it is not a mere every-day procedure. A Ministry has normally been set up by a complicated Act of Parliament containing many clauses, and when a Ministry goes, although, as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough said, sometimes its demise is anticipated, nevertheless it is a matter of significance in the history of Parliament and the Government of this country. Therefore, I would ask the House to say the matter should stand as it is. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Major Boyd-Carpenter) accused me, as he sometimes does, of being under a misapprehension as to his argument, but I really do not think I was. If his argument were accepted, then one might just as well say one should never resort to negative Resolution procedure at all. During the Second Reading Debate I did say that if the scrutinising Committee was overburdened, that was not the fault of this Bill any more than it was the fault of any other Bill which provided for negative Resolution procedure. The remedy is not to abandon that procedure but to assist the scrutinising Committee by some appropriate means if the burden under which they find themselves is excessive.
I would say a word about the point dealt with by my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles). There, again, I would say, if I may, what has already been said by my hon. Friend the Member for East Islington. This Bill uses a form of words which is normal in modern legislation. I think I am right in saying that. There is no constitutional issue involved in it, as was said by my hon. Friend the Member for East Islington. It does choose a specific form of procedure, which in no way does violence to any constitutional precedent. Whether it is a convenient form or not is another matter. As far as I know, it has been found perfectly convenient. I do not think I can add anything to that.
I think my hon. and learned Friend will find there are very few examples before the Act of 1939. Reference was made to the Defence Act of 1939 in which there was this form of procedure giving the House the right to resolve that an Order in Council be annulled. Might I put this constitutional point to my hon. and learned Friend. An Order in Council praying His Majesty to do something, is always put in draft form. It is referred to in Subsection (1). Why? For the simple reason that this House never regards His Majesty as being able to do any wrong. In other words, it is done in that way as a matter of constitutional courtesy. On the other hand, here we are, in effect, saying His Majesty in Council, having ordered something, should suddenly be told by the House of Commons, or by another place, that his Order be annulled. Just brusquely, like that. I think up to 1939 it has been a constitutional courtesy—I will not put it any higher than that—to pray His Majesty to revoke or annul something he did in Council. I do suggest there is a constitutional point. To prove that point, I would remind the House that before the House adjourned for Christmas, the hon. and gallant Member for Central Portsmouth (Captain Snow) entered the House and read out a statement from His Majesty saying that he had hearkened to the Prayer which this House had passed and to which he had been very pleased to pay attention. There is a constitutional point that the House of Commons, when they are asking His Majesty to do something, should do so in that form because of the old idea that the King can do no wrong. When it comes to reversing what he has done in Council, I think it is constitutionally proper to pray that he should annul what he and his Council saw fit to do.
I quite follow what my hon. Friend says about the constitutional point. I do not think it does arise directly on this Amendment and I am not prepared to pledge myself as to the pre-1939 legislation without having looked further into it. At any rate, this is the form chosen in this particular Bill. That is all I can say about it.
I conclude by referring to what was said by my hon. Friend, the Member for Northwich (Mr. Foster). Admittedly there might be inconvenience if one had this? form of procedure resorted to every day of the week, or if one had transfers of functions which after the expiry of 40 days, were determined to be invalid. It is not envisaged that there would be transfers of functions in those numbers, and, in the case in which there is a transfer of function, which is subsequently invalidated as a result of a negative Resolution, there is the safeguard, as has been pointed out, that anything done during that period of 40 days does remain valid. I can assure the Committee that that would in point of fact avoid the inconvenience which the hon. Gentleman apprehended. I ask the Committee to reject this Amendment.
I hope the Solicitor-General, or one of his coadjutors, will be able to clarify a little further one or two points. Before I come to the two points which particularly concern me, I should like to underline, if I may without impertinence, what was said by the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles). I thinks it is a highly undesirable practice that statutory powers should be taken to annul—not to pray for the annulment of, but to annul—His Majesty's Orders in Council. I feel sure that it is not really necessary, and that a Government can get any power it requires without going into that procedure. I cannot doubt, and I really cannot think any lawyer, on reflection, can doubt, that it is introducing an element of paradox into legislative procedure which ought to be avoided. If it is the case that it has happened several times before, I think that is the more reason why it should be stopped before it becomes a normal practice.
That brings me to the use of the word "normal." There was a use by the hon. and learned Gentleman of the word "normally"—I think he used the adver- bial form—where he was saying the Amendment was not really necessary because it would apply normally, at any rate, only in certain minor cases. "Normally" is always a difficult word to define, and he proceeded to give us some minor cases which we should all agree to be comparatively harmless. I suggest to the Committee that the argument that the thing will be all right because normally it will only be used in such a way, is not valid. Really, the onus is not upon him to bring to the attention of the House the light, easy cases which will come well within his normal practice, but, as a matter of intellectual honesty, the onus is upon him to bring to the attention of the House the worst case that may occur. The hon. and learned Gentleman has used the word "normal," without indicating to us by any definitive phrase the limits of abnormality I think the least he can do is to indicate by example what might be the abnormal cases under this part of the Clause. I hope the Solicitor-General may try to make a little clearer the cases he had in mind when he used the word "normally," because these are matters which it is the business of this Committee to see are not done without its control.
4.30 p.m.
I think one of the objects of this new form of drafting is to see that Orders in Council shall become null and void at the earliest possible opportunity. In the case of an affirmative Resolution, the House prays that the King will make an Order in Council; in the case of a negative Resolution, it was thought that it would be inconvenient if the Order in Council were to continue between the time when either House decided it should be null and void, and the time of the new Order in Council being issued. On this point, I ask the learned Solicitor-General whether he would take the case of some very important functions being transferred under this Clause—for instance if he will imagine that the steps taken under Clause 7 included the transfer of the functions of the Department of Overseas Trade, and of the President of the Board of Trade to the Foreign Office—and whether, in those circumstances, it would not be a very important matter which should be subject to an affirmative Resolution.
May I thank my hon. Friend for pointing out one reason which underlies this choice of form in the negative Resolution procedure? As I understand his point, and the observations of the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles), it is that this procedure is more expeditious in putting an end to the Order in Council. As it stands, it would have to wait for a fresh Order in Council, and convenience, so far as it goes and apart from any constitutional principle, is on the side of the form which has been adopted. I am afraid I gave a misleading impression in using the word "normally." The argument I meant to adduce was that one should not regard this procedure as inappropriate to matters of importance. I protest against the view that, when you have something which is a matter of substance, you should never, because it is a matter of substance, have recourse to the negative Resolution procedure. That is a view which has not been taken in the past, and that procedure was not designed, so far as I know, only to be applicable to matters of trivial importance. I did use the word "normally," and it may be that a function of considerable gravity might be transferred as between one Minister and another, by the negative Resolution procedure. I am perfectly prepared to face that position, and I do so by reminding the Committee that the procedure is appropriate to weighty matters, as well as to matters which are of less weight.
If the Government are not going to consider the matter again, we shall have to put it to a Division, because it is one on which we feel very strongly. We have got ourselves involved in a lot of details about Order in Council processes and so on, but the fact remains that this is a very important proposal which the Government are putting into this Bill. They are proposing that, instead of, as always hitherto, legislating on a matter affecting or altering the functions of a Minister, they should do it by Order. That is a very important point, and, if they are going to do it, then it must be done by affirmative Resolution, which means that the Government, having been absolved by the House from the necessity of legislating, will still be left with the responsibility of themselves bringing the Order before the House for approval. It is all very well for the learned Solicitor-General to say that the negative Resolu- tion gives the opportunity of silent assent—and we recognise that he has not been in the House very long—but it is quite different in fact, and the hon. and learned Gentleman will realise, as older hon. Members realise, that it is not always very easy to put into full effect the negative Resolution procedure, because it is not anybody's particular responsibility. It is the responsibility of whoever dislikes the Order and he has to collect a lot of other people who also dislike it. That is the disadvantage of the negative Resolution procedure, and that is why, if it is a matter of importance, it is right that it should be done on the initiative of the Government by affirmative Resolution.
Indeed, the Lord President himself admitted it, but the hon. and learned Gentleman said just now that he does not admit that these things are important enough to be done by affirmative Resolution. The Lord President did admit it, and used those very few words in column 455 of HANSARD. It is because the House is depriving itself of what it has always, hitherto, enjoyed—having the opportunity of discussing Ministerial functions through all stages of a Bill—by leaving them to Orders in Council that we are very anxious that this should be done by affirmative Resolution, and I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether he will not take this important proposition back for reconsideration. The Bill, after all, is introduced by the Prime Minister himself. Will not the Lord Privy Seal take it back to the Cabinet and concede that for which we are asking? If he will give me a firm assurance that he will do that, I could, perhaps, advise my hon. Friends to wait until the next stage; othewise, I am afraid we must have a Division now.
We have had a very long discussion about the procedure of this House, with which, I am sure, many hon. Members are not familiar, and which will help them on their progress to that wise experience which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman possesses on this matter. I still think that there is a profound difference in the main between the affirmative and negative Resolutions. I do not think that the definition of an affirmative Resolution is that it is one that has got to be used on great occasions, while the negative Resolution is the one to be used on minor occasions. I do not think that holds, but, if I can be assured that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will withdraw his Amendment, I will give this undertaking that, by Report stage, we will look at Clause 1 again. I hope we shall not be worried about Clause 2, because it is one about a minor matter of changing titles and so on. [ Interruption. ] I am talking about the Orders in Council about which the Committee has fussed today, I think, with much unnecessary vigour. I prefer to suggest that we might consider sympathetically—I will not put it any higher at this stage—affirmative Resolution procedure under Clause 1 (1) and Clause 1 (2). [ Interruption. ] I am going back to the three categories of Orders in Council. I am afraid the Committee is not very clear about them. I thought my right hon. and gallant Friend made the point in respect of orders under Clauses 1 (1) and 1 (2), for which different procedures are prescribed.
Yes, but I actually made it on Clauses 3 (1) and 3 (2), although I think it comes to the same thing.
I think it does. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will accept my assurance of sympathetic reconsideration of the matter by the time it reaches the Report stage, I will certainly give that assurance.
I hope, if the Lord Privy Seal procures reconsideration of this matter, that it will be in conjunction with the very definite view as to the kind of importance which should normally be attached to a requirement of positive assent as distinct from matters in which it is reasonable to have only the absence of definite assent. This principle will run through a great deal of the Government's proposals. I was a little disturbed by the remarks made by the hon. and learned Gentleman just before the Lord Privy Seal spoke, to the effect that it must not be assumed that the negative procedure is inappropriate for matters of great importance. I suggest that, normally, the procedure of positive assent should be required where matters are of great importance.
I do not wish to prolong the argument, but I think there is a good deal of substance in it. It depends, I agree, on the particular case. I still think there are cases where a negative Resolution would be appropriate—important occasions—and I should hate it to be thought—because it might well defeat the purpose of Parliament—that on all important occasions the affirmative procedure would have to be adopted. It will have to depend on the character of the particular case.
I am not sure whether it is in order to discuss this principle, which I think is long overdue for discussion and which I should be glad, to the best of my ability, to expound at length. I do not propose to take advantage of the matter to weary the Committee, but it is necessary to make one other comparatively small although important point. The Solicitor-General tells us that it is all right about the negative Resolution because 40 days have to elapse. It was unnecessary to assure us of that, because we have been familiar with that for a long time. But if the House knows that for 30 or 35 days all sorts of things may be done, then it will be more difficult to persuade the House, which normally might persuade the Government, that the thing ought to be annulled when there are all sorts of processes, some complete, and some half complete, under the authority of that which it is desired to annul. That is the point, and that is the reason why, for all that the Solicitor-General may say, there must remain a broad distinction between negative and positive procedures. It must be plain that, although some things may be dealt with by negative procedure, anything of very considerable importance ought to have applied to it the positive procedure.
In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and as he has promised to take this matter back and reconsider it sympathetically, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.45 p.m.
I beg to move, in line 14, at end, insert: The result of that is that, if this additional subsection is not introduced into the text of the Bill, what has been referred to as the antecedent publicity procedure would, of necessity, apply to Orders in Council made under the Bill. That would be a consequence which would not conduce to its usefulness. Clearly, any matter of transfer of functions between Minister and Minister is a matter as between the Government and this House, and is not a matter of concern or interest, primarily, at any rate, to outside parties. The antecedent publicity procedure provided for by the Rules Publication Act of 1893 is designed to apprise people and interests outside the House, of intended Orders in Council and Regulations in the form of delegated legislation. It was hoped, when the Bill was drawn, that by the time it reached the present stage, the Statutory Instruments Bill would have become law. If that had come about the Bill would have repealed, as it provides, the Rules Publication Act of 1893, and it would have been unnecessary, in consequence, to ask the Committee to insert this additional subsection.
The effect of inserting it would be that Orders in Council made under the present Bill would not have to be submitted to the antecedent publicity procedure which, quite obviously, in my submission, would be completely useless in this type of case and wholly inappropriate, since this is entirely a question for the House, and the Government in their responsibility to the House. Therefore, I ask the Committee to agree that this additional subsection should be adopted. It does nothing more than prevent the application of the antecedent publicity procedure to Orders in Council made under the present Bill. The Committee will remember that the antecedent publicity procedure provided for publication in the "Gazette" for so many days of notice of the Order in Council to be made. That procedure would be useless and inappropriate in this class of case.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Before the Committee parts with the Clause, there is one matter on which I should like some information from the Solicitor-General, and that is with regard to subsection (4). This reads:
"No provision in any Act passed before the commencement of this Act shall be construed as limiting the powers conferred by this Act."
This is, I understand, and subject to what the Solicitor-General may say, a general Clause indirectly overruling an unspecified series of other Acts of Parliament, and I should be very interested to know if he will tell the Committee why this procedure has been adopted in this particular Bill. It is very much more convenient, if it is desired to amend previous Acts of Parliament, to specify them in a Schedule instead of doing it in this vague way. I am sure the Solicitor-General would appreciate the practical inconvenience occasioned to members of his profession, among others, when looking at previous Acts of Parliament and not knowing whether it is or is not the intention of this Bill to amend them or not. I feel that before the Committee pass from this Clause some explanation ought to be given of the reason for taking this, I hope, unusual procedure.
The reason for inserting that Subsection is really precautionary. It is simply to make it clear that no provision of previous Acts, which without that Subsection may be considered as in some way limiting its operation, need have that effect. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is solely precautionary for that purpose. For example, under Section (3) of the Ministry of Supply Act, 1919, certain sanctions are required, and the object of the insertion of this Subsection in the present Bill is to provide that in that kind of case, and there may be many like it, that it would be considered as having in fact no limiting effect. It is not really as sinister as he is disposed to think, and that is the only reason for the Subsection.
It would be possible to schedule them.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause, as amended, order to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 6.—(Minister of Transport.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
Clause 6, it appears to me, does amend Section 26 of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919. The object of the Amendment is to give power to the subject to sue the Minister of Transport in cases where the Ministry of War Transport's functions have been transferred to the Ministry of Transport. I might say that I always find it very difficult to construe any Act of Parliament, particularly when the Schedule amends another Act 26 years old. So far as I can see, Clause 6 almost fails to carry out that object, because what it does is merely to add to the powers of the subject the right to sue the Minister if any contract or tort arises relating to highways. That is in fact what it really does. The Section now reads:
The next question arises on the following Amendment in the Schedule which states that after the word "shall" there shall be inserted the words: I have already said, I always find it difficult to interpret Acts of Parliament, and I daresay other hon. Members are similarly affected. I may have misunderstood the effect of the Amendment which the Clause incorporates in the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, and I hope the Minister will do his best to clear it up for me. If I have not misunderstood it, and if the position is as I have stated it, then I think the Minister ought to amend it so that the powers of the subject are not curtailed. I think that this is a real danger, and I am of opinion that the effect of the Amendment is much more important than many other of the matters which have been discussed this afternoon, because Clause 6 refers to the curtailment of the rights of the subject, and as Members of this House of Commons we must always see to it that the rights of the subject are protected.[ Interruption .] I may say that this point has not been referred to by any hon. Members of the Opposition. It is because their opposition is so poor that we have to deal with this sort of thing from this side of the Committee.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—The Opposition really have no cause to cheer me on this point; rather is it a matter of my commiserating with them because of their lack of power as an Opposition.
5.0 p.m.
My hon. and gallant Friend, I think, is partly right and partly wrong. May I say, first of all, that the Amendments to which he refers do not in any way curtail the rights of the subject. I will tell the Committee what I think the object is. The Minister of War Transport has certain functions in relation to merchant shipping. Those functions were formerly exercised first by the Board of Trade and then by the Ministry of Shipping, after which they are transferred to the Ministry of War Transport. The Minister of Transport, appointed under the 1919 Act, was made liable in tort in respect of his functions under that Act. For various procedural reasons, it would be difficult to make him also liable in respect of duties relating to merchant shipping. Therefore, the Amendments are designed to confine his liability to what it was before; that is to say, in no way to whittle the liability of the Minister but to confine it to what it was before, namely, to functions which he had to discharge under the Act of 1919. The Amendments are designed solely for that purpose. I am well aware of the opinions of the House generally, and of this Committee in particular, on the question of the liability of Ministers and the liability of the Crown, but I do not want to enter into a general discussion on the subject. It is a subject on which views are held by both sides of the Committee, but I do not think one can deal with it piecemeal in particular enactments. However, I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that these particular Amendments do not take away from the subject any rights which the subject previously possessed, and I hope he will be satisfied with that explanation.
My hon. and gallant Friend did not refer to the last but one Amendment referred to in the Second Schedule. That is simply a drafting Amendment. The legislature is invited to take the opportunity of putting in the Act of 1919 a drafting Amendment which should have been there and which was not. So that the effect of the Amendment simply limits the provisions of Section 26, which impose liability in respect of torts, to torts committed in relation to functions of the Minister under the Act, and prevents them from extending to his functions in relation to merchant shipping.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 7.—(Provisions as to Department of Overseas Trade.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
Clause 7 is the fourth which deals with the word "if," which is, I think, very unusual in a Bill. Can the Minister say when the Government propose to take any action under this Clause? Are they going to make these changes immediately, or is the "if" a remote contingency?
So far as I know, it is not a remote contingency. At the same time I do not know what the answer is with regard to the question of time. The word "if" is not put there merely for the sake of form. It is intended to act upon it, but I am not in a position to answer the question because I do not know the answer so far as time is concerned.
Then I give notice that I will repeat the question when some Minister is present who can give an answer.
Is the Committee not in rather an unfortunate position, in that it is being asked to approve this Clause, and the learned Solicitor-General cannot give us the answer on this important point?
I will get the answer.
I appreciate the courtesy which the hon. and learned gentleman always gives the Committee, but the burden of my complaint is that there are two other Departments concerned—one is the Board of Trade and the other is the Foreign Office—and surely the right and courteous thing would be for the Government to arrange for a representative of at least one of those two Departments to be present to give the information. I understand that the learned Solicitor-General has now received further information.
The answer is, as soon as the Bill is law. I should have given that answer before.
We must congratulate ourselves on having elicited that information, but it still leaves me without the information which I do not expect the learned Solicitor-General to give at the moment. The question is, why could not the Government arrange to have a representative of either of the Departments—either the Department to transfer these powers or the Department to receive these powers—present, so that he might have ben able to spare us this little contretemps ?
I have no doubt that the answer is that I should have known. No doubt I should, and I am sorry I did not. I apologise to the Committee for not being able to give the answer straight away.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 8.—(Short title and interpretation.)
I beg to move, in page 4, line 36, after "Crown," insert:
"means the holder of an office in His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, and"
This is a drafting Amendment, and I will tell the Committee why I ask for the insertion of these words. As the text of the Bill reads at present, without those words, it is felt that there might be some doubt whether Ministers of the Northern Irish Government might possibly be included within its scope. They are not intended to be included, and the Committee will notice that the words that I seek to insert put that possible ambiguity beyond any question at all. The words make it clear that the Ministers of the Crown referred to, are those who are holders of an office of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom. It is purely a drafting Amendment to remove the possibility of doubt, and I ask the Committee to say that those words should be inserted.
I think for future reference it might be as well if the learned Solicitor-General could tell us why five Departments of State have been specified and other Departments have not. I assume that it is because in the case of these Departments they are boards, and that may be the difference between them and other Ministries where there are no boards but there is a Minister. Otherwise, it does not seem to me that the list is exhaustive enough, and I think we ought to have an explanation of the reason for the insertion of those five Departments.
The reason is that in the case of the Departments enumerated—the Treasury and so on—the principal functions which have to be exercised in connection with them are conferred by the Statutes which create those functions, not on the Minister but, for example, on the Treasury qua Treasury, and the Army Council qua Army Council instead of the Secretary of State for War. That is the reason they are included. It is simply to make certain that the Bill does apply to those functions.
I am not clear from what the learned Solicitor-General has just said, how far this proposal goes. Having regard to what he has said as to the constitution of the Departments specified, does his proposed Amendment mean that the people to be included are not only heads of Departments but also, to take the case of the Army Council, the Service members? In what he said in support of this Amendment he has drawn attention very properly to the constitution of these Departments. He is putting them into the definition Clause in this Bill, and I would like to know where is the limitation, which I have no doubt is intended, between the political members of these boards, as it were, and the Service members. Where is the line of distinction between the Army Council and the C.I.G.S.? If there is no distinction it is very disquieting. It would mean that the Secretary of State for War could be given the functions of the C.I.G.S. and vice versa —an alarming prospect.
I do not really think the difficulty indicated does arise. The expression "Minister of the Crown" under the terms of this Bill as amended, if the Committee agree to the insertion of those words, relates to the holder of the office—that is to say, the Secretary of State for War—
Of an office.
Of the office. I am referring to one particular office at the moment. It also relates to the Army Council, and the reason for that is that the Statutes, which create functions to be exercised by the Secretary of State for War in terms, do, to a large extent, confer them not upon him but upon the Army Council. That is the explanation perfectly simply. There cannot be any question of the Minister including an officer, qua officer who is a member of the Army Council; it is the Army Council, that is all.
Does that include all the members?
I think the Solicitor-General is doing well this afternoon, but he is entitled to have a little more support in these proceedings. I notice the Treasury is mentioned in this. Surely we are entitled to know, where the Treasury is concerned, how far that goes. It is quite clear as regards the Chancellor of the Exchequer; he is the head of the Department. What is the position of the Financial Secretary? It would be interesting to find out, in the case of each of these Departents specifically referred to in Subsection (2), exactly what func- tions can be referred and which officers or officials and the Minister holding office under one of these five Departments mentioned can have their functions transferred by this method.
I thought I had made it clear. The two aggregates of persons who could be referred to, in so far as the finances of this country are concerned, are the Chancellor of the Exchequer—and I suppose the Financial Secretary—and the Treasury. The statutes make reference to the Treasury; not to individual officials in the Treasury, but the Treasury as an entity. The same applies to the other Boards which are enumerated in Subsection (2) of Clause 8.
I think I can possibly help the hon. and learned Gentleman. It is a fact that neither the Chancellor nor the Financial Secretary, as far as I recollect, is ever mentioned in Statutes at all; it is always the Treasury. Having listened to the hon. and learned Gentleman I was wondering whether it was necessary, in view of the Amendment he is moving, to have these words. I should have thought it might have been enough to say "'Minister of the Crown' means 'Holder of an office in the Government'," and leave it at that. Why is it necessary specifically to mention these and not other Departments? I certainly can recollect Acts—and I am quite sure any of us could if we sat down and thought about it for a minute or two—where Departments are mentioned and not the Minister. I am certain he will find agricultural Acts in which reference is made to the Ministry of Agriculture and not to the Minister. I think the hon. and learned Gentleman may, before the Report stage, have to look at it again if he is importing a difference between the Minister and the functions of the Department. I think he will find the ground is not entirely covered by specifying these five.
I am very grateful to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman for what he says. The matter has been looked at already. No doubt we can look at it again. I am advised, in point of fact, that the ground is adequately covered by the wording of the Clause plus the words which I seek to introduce. I am obliged to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman for reminding me of the Ministry of Agriculture. We will look into that to see whether by any chance it has been left out whereas it should have been put in. I do not think it will be found to be the case.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Duration.)
This Act shall continue in force for the period of two years after the passing thereof and shall then expire.—[ Captain Crookshank .]
5.15 p.m.
Brought up, and read the First time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
This proposed new Clause is not very difficult for anyone to understand. It merely seeks to make this Bill a temporary Act. As I said earlier on, I quite recognise that during the difficult period through which we are now living, when there is so much uncertainty, there is a case probably for a convenient means of transferring some of the functions of Departments, and particularly some of the expiring functions of Departments which are linked up with the war, and winding up the affairs of the war. It would be extremely inconvenient if legislation had had to be introduced immediately for dealing with all this which during war time, could be done by Order in Council—or I think I am right in saying, some of it could be done by Order in Council. It is, of course, a very different thing, between permitting it for a short time as we suggest in this Amendment, for two years after the passing of the Act, and making this a permanent matter.
I should have thought that within the next couple of years the Government would have time to plan out their administrative measures, to change it from the existing machine, and the Committee could, by inserting an Amendment of this kind in this Bill, invite, indeed compel, the Government to do so, and thereafter we should resume the normal practice of having legislation, when dealing with executive powers. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Major Boyd-Carpenter) made a strong series of statements on the Second Reading on this subject, with which I entirely agree. It is a thing not to be done light-heartedly, for the House to part with powers such as are demanded in this Bill. The power of the Executive is constantly growing, and it is our business to watch it. Wherever we sit in the House I should have thought we would have agreed about that. It is also important, as the business of the Government increases, to watch that individual Ministers do not take to themselves more powers than they are themselves capable of dealing with. One has only to recollect that that is always one of the first steps in totalitarian arrangements: a Minister begins to blossom out into being Minister of two, three, four, five, six, and in the end all the Departments.
That is the Brüning period.
Whatever the right description of it may be, the Briining period, or the Weimar Republic—I do not know. If my hon. Friend wishes to argue it on those lines, I am quite sure the House would be very interested to hear it from such a distinguished historian as himself. It is a risk. It may not be a very immediate risk, but it is a risk which has to be guarded against, namely, when the Bill is passed, if it is passed, as a permanent Measure—which would be comparatively easy with the docile majority in the House—without overmuch discussion of great changes of authority being made and, in consequence, if required, being concentrated in one or two hands. I am perfectly sure it is not what this Government has in mind, but that is the very reason I suggest this Bill should be of a temporary character, as an Act, in order not to make it possible for other people to do these things in the future. I should hazard that a couple of years ought to be enough time for us to get out of the immediate postwar difficulties, and to have the necessary arrangements made for the convenience of the administration and the convenience of Parliament.
I know that in the Supplies and Services Bill the Government were so pessimistic as to think it was going to take five years before the country got straight. I must say that in the weeks that have elapsed since the passage of that Bill, seeing how the Government have been behaving in the meantime, I am not surprised they then took that view. I wonder whether they were not even then slightly optimistic, but we think of it in terms of rather less duration. We then suggested two years and, on the same basis, we now suggest that two years should be enough. It is after all a matter which is entirely within the control of the Government; it is a matter of the arrangement of their own business. It is true that in the world at large and in industrial and other problems the Government may be able to claim—rightly or wrongly is another matter—that it is not all their fault, but arrangements about the Government business are certainly within their own responsibility, and two years, in our view, would be a sufficient period for which to give them the powers.
We on this side of the Committee take the view that this is a Bill which will be permanently useful as part of the legislation of this country. It is not, as we conceive it, one whose usefulness depends simply upon the war period. The principle of the Bill was discussed fully on the Second Reading, and during that Debate the view put forward on behalf of the Government at that time, although not accepted in toto , was at any rate accepted for the most part by hon. Gentlemen opposite, who saw that it was a useful Bill. I gather that that is not disputed, and that the only apprehension is that it might be abused. I would remind hon. Members opposite that Parliament is given—we have been discussing is this afternoon—an opportunity to see that it is not abused. It is purely a machinery Bill. It could not have the sinister consequences imputed to it. If it is abused, it is for Parliament to put a check upon the Government which seeks to abuse it, by exercising its rights in relation to Orders in Council which are put before it for affirmative or negative Resolution as the case may be.
The reason for the Bill is not the fact of the war, or the difficulties which the war period occasioned, but the general complexity necessarily involved in the administration of a modern Government. As was pointed out during the Second Reading Debate, the trouble is that the stresses which are attendant upon modern times, the general complexity of modern life, the extreme difficulty of getting the administrative machine going sufficiently fast to cope with the various vicissitudes with which it has to deal, make it inevitable that it shall be made to function quickly and easily, and shall not keep back those things which are essential. It is for that purpose that this Bill is introduced. It is a machinery Bill, and if it is useful at all it is useful not merely for a period of two years but permanently, and will be useful not only to the present Administration but to future administrations.
Once the principle of the Bill is accepted, once it is conceded that it is useful, I would ask the Committee to say that there is no reason why its life should be limited in the way suggested. If it outlives its usefulness, it can always be repealed, by appropriate proceedings in Parliament, but let it meanwhile do its work, and if, as we on this side of the Committee anticipate, it is found to be permanently useful, let it remain permanently useful in the administration of this country. I listened very closely to the speech of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman and I was right in anticipating that he did not intend the whole of the consequences which the new Clause would have. It would have most disastrous consequences on Clause 4. At the end of two years, I suppose, the Ministry of Food would suddenly disappear. As to the othes Clauses, there would be a shooting backwards and forwards of functions which would have the most alarming consequences. I gather, however, that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman did not intend that, and I do not impute any such intention to him. His observations were directed to the remainder of the Bill, and he was not concerning himself with the Clauses from 4 onwards. With regard to the remainder of the Bill, I can only repeat that it is intended, and believed, to be permanently useful. There is no reason, so far as we on this side of the Committee can see why its life should be limited in the way suggested.
This new Clause gives to the Government a chance to demonstrate their sincerity. There has been a good deal of discussion this afternoon on whether the safeguards for the rights of the House contained in the Bill are adequate or not, and it has been most strenuously—and, as always, persuasively—argued by the learned Solicitor-General that the safeguards provided are adequate. Hon. Members on this side have contended the contrary. This new Clause gives a chance of putting the matter to the proof. If the hon. And learned Gentle- man will accept the Clause, this Bill will run for two years from the date on which it receives the Royal Assent. That is a long enough period to give a trial of its working. It may be that hon. Members on this side are wrong and the learned Solicitor-General is right, and that the safeguards will prove adequate—that hon. Members will read 30 Defence Regulations before breakfast every day, and will hurry to the appropriate office to put down Prayers for their annulment every evening. It may be that he is right. If that be so, and if the same powers are necessary two years hence, when the learned Solicitor-General—if he does not by that time hold a higher office—comes down to this House again and asks for the powers under the Bill to be renewed, there will be hardly any argument left to oppose it, because his case will be proved. If, on the other hand, hon. Members on this side are right, and this is a Bill which will take away permanently and without adequate safeguard powers for which this House fought for centuries, it would be more than probably that, whatever the party Whips opposite might do, the new Bill would not get a Second Reading. I therefore appeal to the learned Solicitor-General to put the matter to the proof. This Amendment gives him a perfectly clear opportunity. If he really believes that this Bill adequately safeguards the rights of this House, then let him agree to its running for two years, land let us, two years hence, have a Debate to decide whether he is right or we are right.
I hope that the Solicitor-General and the right hon. Gentleman who is in charge of this Bill really will think again about this, and I hope that they will consider dropping the "stress and complexity of modern life" argument. That was the argument upon which Eve persuaded Adam to eat the apple, and it is time that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who have so much fun, and get so well remunerated for adding to the stress and complexity of modern life, should stop using the argument of the stress and complexity of modern life as a reason that more power should be given to them. It is no more than a piece of chronological provincialism to suppose that life is more burdensome and difficult in one's own time than it was before. It is more burdensome and difficult for us, of course, than it is for our grandfathers, because they are dead, but there is not the least reason to suppose that it is more difficult for us now than it was for them in their day. I do hope that we shall see that argument dropped.
5.30 p.m.
I think that, within the rules of Order, I may fairly put a more general point. We were always assured, when the procedure about Orders in Council—which it would be out of Order now to discuss but to which I might refer as an illustration, and which the Solicitor-General was defending on the last Amendment—was introduced either a few days before or after the war began, that it would be temporary. Now, here we have the Government coming down and saying, "This is a procedure which has become normal" But I need hardly remind you, Mr. Beaumont, that every time proceedings of that sort were introduced—in August, 1939, or after the actual fighting had begun, and then continuously for the next five or six years—we were always informed that this was only for the period of hostilities, and that none of the rights of the House would be whittled away.
This is a whittling away of the rights of the House, and it is of no value for the learned Solicitor-General to say that this has not whittled them wholly away, and that this still leaves us with an opportunity, and so forth. It is, in fact, increasing the power of the Executive and reducing the power of the House, and it is doing so—even if our proposal is accepted—for two and a half years after the war is over. I would beg right hon. Gentlemen opposite to consider whether it is decent for them to ask and whether it is wise for them to ask for this increased power. A time will come when they will not be any longer a majority—perhaps some to the left of them will be. Indeed, it is nothing but a Fascist superstition to presume the opposite. Are we now entering the one-party State? Are there never again to be any political conflicts in this country? If not—
The hon. Gentleman is going rather wide of the Amendment under discussion.
I would be the last to wish to go out of Order—
Making false prophecies.
That would not be out of Order. If false premises were out of Order there would be very little talking in this House. [ Laughter .] But I think it is relevant to ask right hon. Gentlemen to consider the morality of the matter; and it is not insulting to ask them also to consider the convenience of the matter, even from the point of view of a party temporarily—and necessarily temporarily under our arrangements—in office.
I was very interested in the last speech. I am always interested these days, in the way the Opposition tries to make us cut down the permanency of our legislation. I can refer to occasions in the past when right hon. Members on the opposite side introduced and put on the Statute Book legislation which they hoped would last for ever—for instance, the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Act, 1927, which took away constitutional rights—
On a point of Order. In view of the Ruling you have just thought fit to give, Mr. Beaumont, may I ask whether discussion of the Trade Disputes Act is in Order?
It would certainly not be in Order. I was waiting to see how far the hon. Member proposed to go.
I was referring to it as an illustration, similar to that used by the Senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn). I have noticed the arguments now brought forward, almost ad nauseam , by right hon. Gentlemen opposite in favour of limiting the duration of our legislation. Quite frankly, they never showed any signs in the past of limiting their legislation.
The hon. and learned Solicitor-General, who addressed the Committee with his usual felicity of expression and with extreme courtesy to his opponents, had only one lacuna in his speech, and that was that he failed hopelessly and completely to deal with the facts of the situation as it exists. There has been a quite good humoured discussion on this matter. After listening to the speech of the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) I could almost say it has been a humorous discussion. He always introduces a humorous note and usually succeeds in delaying the proceedings: But there are serious aspects of this matter, to which I should like to draw the attention of the Solicitor-General and of the Committee. I was very much impressed by what he said at the end of his speech. He said there was action which could be taken; by which, of course, he meant it was possible under the Bill as it stands without the new Clause to take steps to bring this Bill to an end. That is all he could have meant. He said action could be taken to bring this Bill to an end. He will correct me if I am wrong.
I am sorry to interrupt. What I meant to imply was that if the Bill were to outlive its usefulness, Parliament could repeal it.
Yes. I am sorry I have not got the ipsissima verba of the hon. and learned gentleman. I had the sense of what he said. It is in that respect that I must completely controvert what he said. That statement has a strong basis in theory, but in fact it has none at all, because it may be assumed that a Government with a majority such as this Government have will remain in power for the next three years. Governments with such a majority usually do. How on earth, then, can the House of Commons take any action when the Government counts such a majority? The "House of Commons "does not mean one side of the House: it means the whole House. I do not want to say anything wounding to the hon. and learned Gentleman, but what he said could not have been 100 per cent. sincere, because he must be aware that no action that Parliament can take can possibly do away with the necessity for this new Clause. It is only by this Clause that the House can in two years' time have an opportunity of repealing the Bill.
A much more substantial point in his speech was this. I would not suggest he went outside the scope of the new Clause, because if he did you, Mr. Beaumont, would have called him up. But he did indulge in some interesting philosophical observations on the subject with which this Clause is concerned. He will correct me if I am wrong. I understood him to say that the legislative machine—or the legislative machinery, it may have been—had to work faster than it is now. His reason for refusing the Clause was that he wished to see the continuance of what can only be described as extra-legislative power taken by the Government. We know about extra-territorial power. What this Government are doing in this and other Bills is not to have the ordinary process of legislation through Parliament, but to continue to maintain special powers which were given for war purposes. I charge the Government with wishing to continue these indefinitely into the peace period.
I am rather surprised that statement did not get a cheer from hon. Gentlemen opposite, because again and again we have heard in their speeches in the country that this is exactly what they want to do. They complain of the slowness of Parliament. In this Bill before us they wish to continue indefinitely powers which were for special purposes during the war. That is what they are attempting, and the Amendment is a counter attempt to see these powers limited.
I do not want to detain the Committee unduly, but I must say to the Solicitor-General that this is but one of many such steps which have been taken, and I challenge anybody on the opposite side to deny it. It makes me feel the Government are deeply resentful of the ordinary Parliamentary processes. They do not wish to submit proposals or legislation to the ordinary processes of Parliament; they wish to do as much as they can by Orders in Council, by all sorts of methods, which cannot be challenged in the easy way the right hon. Gentleman suggested, because the Government have got a large majority. It has rightly been ruled—if I may say so with respect—by past Chairmen to be out of Order for anyone standing at this Box or in any part of the House, when discussing a proposal of this kind, to say what the future action of the Opposition will be. What I am about to say contains no threat. I would like to say, as an old Member of this House, and in length of service the oldest Member of this House, that it is not going to be quite so easy as hon. Members opposite seem to think to force all these Bills through the House, because the Opposition have still got the right to express their views very frankly, fully and freely on every Amendment that comes forward.
Judging by experiences of the past, the more a Government try to "bulldoze" their opponents, especially when the "bull-dozing" gets cheers from the supporters behind the Government, the less the process of Parliament works, the more exhausted Ministers are, and in the long run, the interests of the country suffer. For all these reasons, I ask the right hon. Gentleman to accept the new Clause as a perfectly reasonable proposal which merely asks for something which I should have thought that hon. Members opposite as democrats would have been willing to do, and that is to allow these special powers to come to an end in two years' time, and if there is still an emergency—and, Heaven knows, there may be for external and internal reasons—to seek fresh powers.
On a point of Order, Mr. Beaumont. Should not the Noble Lord address the Chair and not hon. Gentlemen opposite?
I am addressing the Deputy-Chairman. If the hon. Gentleman is not satisfied I will repeat my words. As you, Mr. Beaumont, know very well, and as the Government know very well, there is likely to be in the next few years very little reduction in the policy of change with which we are faced at the present time. I would say to the hon. and learned Gentleman on behalf of all my hon. and right hon. Friends on this side of the Committee—because these matters go considerably deeper than the particular proposals before us—that if they require support in certain external matters, I would appeal to them when they get as reasonable a proposition as that now put forward made to them to give it more consideration than was apparent in the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman.
5.45 P.m.
I should not have intervened in this Debate but for the speech of the Noble Lord, because he and I are both concerned with the rights of the House in legislative and other matters. I must say that I feel that he has put himself in an extremely vulnerable position this afternoon in the speech which he has made. After all, it is not a new discovery that the machinery of Parliament sometimes functions at less than the required speed.
I am sorry to find myself in disagreement with the hon. Gentleman, whose views on this subject I treat with respect, but will he explain to the Committee what he means by the word "agreed?"
I have not used the word "agreed." I said "required speed."
I thought that the hon. Gentleman was accusing me of having used the word "agreed."
I am not conscious of having used the word "agreed." I have used the word "speed." It is not a new discovery that the machinery of Parliament frequently functions at a far less rapid speed than the occasion requires. My noble Friend is a Member of a Party which has exercised undisputed power in Britain throughout practically the whole of my adult life, with two exceptions in 1923–24 and in 1929–31. If his Party is concerned with making Parliament work, it has had opportunity enough, and if it had used that opportunity, it would not have been necessary for the Noble Lord to have made his speech today.
The hon. Gentleman continues to refer to me. I am sorry if I got the word wrong. I thought it was "agreed." We now understand that it was "speed." I would, therefore, ask him to explain what he means by "required legislative speed." Required by whom?
I would say "required by the obvious, blatant necessities of the case."[ Interruption.] I love opposition but it is a little difficult to deal with two Members at once. If the hon. Member on my right will be silent, I will deal with the one on my left, and if the one on my left is silent, I will deal with the one on my right, and I hope to accommodate both of them adequately.
Possibly all three would be out of Order.
If, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, you allow the general argument above the Gangway that this Clause ought to be accepted and not resisted because it is necessary to maintain the control of Parliament, then surely I am in Order in urging in reply that this Clause should not be limited in the manner proposed. I am entitled to answer the argument that has been made. The Noble Lord complains that if we do not pass the Clause we shall be giving to the Government substantial, extra-Parliamentary powers. No power that is given by Parliament can be an extra-Parliamentary power. No power that is given by a legislative body can be an extra-legislative power. I am sorry to have to explain these simple points to the Noble Lord.
The hon. Gentleman, said that he is sorry to have to explain these simple points. I was giving an explanation of which he is obviously fully in need. When he says that it is incorrect to speak of extra-legislative powers, I venture to suggest that he is incorrect himself. Obviously, what I mean by extra-legislative power is the continuance of power by Ministers to do something which they are not expressly authorised to do by the House of Commons.
The whole idea of this Bill is to give the Government that power. If the Government exercise the powers which the House give, they cannot be accused of exercising extra-legislative powers. I do not doubt the Noble Lord's intention and that he meant to say something quite different, but that is what he did say, and not being psychic I can only deal with the argument actually advanced. If we are on common ground that Parliament has to devolve some if its powers, the powers which they ought to devolve are those which deal with the mechanics of life and government, and not with the dynamics of life and government. This Bill is to enable the Government from time to time to alter the title of the Minister so as to transfer functions from his Department to another to keep the machinery of Government in a state of periodical overhaul and to adapt it to the requirements of the case. It is with the mechanics of life and government and not the dynamics of life and government that this Bill deals. We have the right at any time to put down a Motion against anything the Government does by the powers conferred by this Bill. It really is very great nonsense—and sometimes there is nonsense spoken in this House—to suggest that there is in this Bill some dark conspiracy against the sovereignty of the Mother of Parliaments, and may I offer a word of advice to the folk on the Opposition Benches?—[ Interruption. ]—Well "folk" is a good old English word.
On a point of Order, Mr. Beaumont. Is it in Order for an hon. Member to refer to Members above the Gangway as "folk"? I put it to you that that is not a proper Parliamentary expression.
"Folk" is a homely word and is not, I think, out of Order.
I accept your description, because I am homely myself. I would suggest to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway that there is enough serious politics in England at the moment about which to argue without making a constitutional issue out of this matter.
Not under this Clause.
I take it that the discussion will get wider than when the Noble Lord spoke and I know that from time to time the party above the Gangway are in a difficulty as to who should speak for them. That is a difficulty which never arises in the case of my particular party. I regard this as a reasonable, workmanlike Bill dealing with the mechanics of government, and I think the Government ought to have the powers that they are asking for here. I might not always agree with the way they exercise those powers, and I make certain reservations with regard to the Department of Overseas Trade and other Departments, but we can argue about those when the opportunity arises. This is a sensible piece of work, and it is nonsense to raise a constitutional issue on it. Therefore, I think the new Clause should be rejected.
This afternoon this Bill proceeded on a placid basis of reasoned argument until the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) charged in on a white charger. The result has been to give my two hon. Friends below the Gangway on the other side an opportunity of using their humour. This Amendment is a simple Amendment to reduce the operation of this Bill to two years. The Opposition have got a two years complex. I recall the criticism which this Government have had to endure from the Opposition about their five years' programme which they intend to carry into effect. Great play was also made by hon. Members on the other side about the five years' plans of the U.S.S.R., and after some of those plans were accomplished the war came and hon. Gentlemen opposite were glad that those plans had been attempted. Now the Conservative Party wish to have this Bill limited to two years. It could also be limited to five years. But we believe that it should be for the unlimited period set down in the Bill, and, further, we believe it would be of great help to the Conservative Party should it so happen that they came into power five years hence and wished to exercise powers under this Bill.
The Noble Lord the Member for Horsham talks about this Government wanting to exercise extra-Parliamentary powers. I can say to him that in the last Parliament I was not regarded as a bad Parliamentarian. I think it could be said that I came to be regarded as a good Parliamentarian. I never tried to abuse the powers of this House. I have on occasions during the last war taken a line which was not easy for me and which was most uneasy for my colleagues. I would suggest that this is really good business. It is not a question, as one hon. and learned Member suggested, of testing our sincerity as democrats. There was talk about whittling away rights of the House. This proposal is nothing of the kind.
Let us assume that this House has passed the Bill and decided that it should last for five years from the time upon which it was put upon the Statute Book. Let us assume that at the expiration of those five years the Conservative Party came into office, which God forbid. I think they would find themselves embarrassed by the absence of this Bill. They would find themselves having to put Bills before the Cabinet which would have to take their place in a long queue. Let us assume that the Conservative Government would be desirous of acting in the best interests of the people and with all speed. If it were found that some little Department ought to go out of business or that some functions ought to be transferred from one Department to another Department, that would need legislation and Bills would have to be introduced to deal with each of these subjects, but in competition with major Bills, which should take a high priority, they might not get a high place. The result would be that the Government would find themselves embarrassed by being unable to deal promptly with some function which ought to be transferred or some Department which ought to be put out of business. Is it not clearly good Government and good administration to take these powers as general and permanent powers? We are doing it in the interests of democracy, which hon. Members on the other side think we despise, but in which frankly they never believed. [ Interruption. ] That is true. I did not introduce this note of controversy into the discussion. I intervened in the Debate earlier on two or three occasions to prevent controversy.
Let me put the position quite clearly. The Noble Lord said that it was not a threat but things were not going to be so easy. That does not surprise me. I do not regard it as a threat, I do not regard it even as a promise; I regard it as a fact and from it we shall not shrink. We are not, trying to seize Parliamentary power. Who was it threatened the country with the Gestapo if we were returned to power? Hon. Members on the other side of the House, and the people did not believe it. The Noble Lord the Member for Horsham is now accusing us, because of this simple machinery Bill, of trying to become a tyranny above Parliament. Are the people going to believe it? No.
The right hon. Gentleman must not misquote me. I never used the words "tyranny above Parliament," and I said I would judge the Government by other actions along with this Bill.
6 p.m.
If the Government take extra-legislative power it is, in fact, tyranny. I put it in one word. The Noble Lord can call it what he likes; we shall not mind. What we are trying to do by this Bill is an honest job. I made a concession, earlier in the Debate, which, I think, was substantial, and which I made with a certain amount of reluctance. I did it because I am prepared to take a chance on the procedure for particular kinds of Orders in Council, and that undertaking will be fulfilled in the later stages of the Bill. Now we have had this excursion, which has been enjoyable to those who have taken part in it, I want to say that we must resist this Clause, and that if the Opposition choose to go into the Lobby against us, we shall be very glad to accept their challenge.
I apologise for speaking twice, and although I am tempted to con- tinue the argument I will not, except to say to the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown), that I hope he has been persuaded by the Lord Privy Seal that there is a point of constitutional importance in this matter. That brings me to my feet on a matter of fact. I think the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) was betrayed by his memory—I hope he will look at the record, because I am sure he would not wish to leave a false impression on the Committee—in asserting that Members on this side had never made any sort of protest or resistance to additional Executive powers, or additional powers of legislation by statutory instrument, when there was a Conservative or Coalition Government. Especially in a House where there are so many new Members, it ought to be put on record that a considerable number of Members of my party, at least during the
last 11 years, have always protested against legislation of this sort, and have frequently divided upon it.
Can the hon. Member give an instance where he and his friends voted against a Conservative Government on the question of the duration of a Statute, when it was introduced by the Conservative Prime Minister of the day?
I cannot charge my memory now with a particular instance, but those who have been here for some time know that I would not lie on this matter, and that there have been protests on matters of this sort and frequent Divisions.
Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 100; Noes 223.
Division No. 74.] AYES. [6.5 p.m. Amory, D. Heathcoat Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone) Molson, A. H. E. Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. Morrison, Rt. Hn. W. S. (Cirencester) Baldwin, A. E. Gammans, Capt. L. D. Noble, Comdr. A. H. P. Baxter, A. B. Gates, Maj. E. E. Nutting, Anthony Beamish, Maj. T. V. H. George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke.) Orr-Ewing, I. L. Birch, Lt.-Col. Nigel Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley) Peake, Rt. Hon. O. Bower, N. Hare, Lieut.-Col. Hn. J. H. (W'dbr'ge) Peto, Brig. C. H. M. Boyd-Carpenter, Maj. J. A. Harris, H. Wilson Pickthorn, K. Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G. Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V. Pitman, I. J. Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. Head, Brig. A. H. Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry) Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Rayner, Brig. R. Butcher, H. W. Hollis, Sqn.-Ldr. M. C. Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury) Carson, E. Hope, Lord J. Renton, D. Challen, Fit.-Lieut. C. Howard, Hon. A. Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham) Clarke, Col. R. S. Hurd, A. Ropner, Col. L. Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G. Hutchison, Lt.-Col. J. R. (G'gow, C.) Ross, Sir R. Conant, Maj. R. J. E. Jeffreys, General Sir G. Savory, Prof. D. L. Cooper-Key, E. M. Lambert, G. Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W. Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow) Lancaster, Col. C. G. Spearman, A. C. M. Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. Stanley, Rt. Hon. O. Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Lindsay, Lt.-Col. M. (Solihull) Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. Cuthbert, W. N. Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. Sutcliffe, H. Darling, Sir W. Y. Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) Dodds-Parker, A. D. MacAndrew, Col. Sir C. Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.) Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. (Penrith) Mackeson, Lt.-Col. H. R. Teeling, William Drayson, Capt. G. B. McKie, J. H. (Galloway) Thorneycroft, G. E. P. Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond) Maclay, Hon. J. S. Ward, Hon. G. R. Duthie, W. S Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold Wheatley, M. J. Eccles, D. M. Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries) White, J. B. (Canterbury) Eden, Rt. Hon. A Maitland, Comdr. J. W. Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge) Errell, Col. F. J. Marshall, Comdr. D. (Bodmin) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Fletcher, W. (Bury) Marshall, S. H. (Sutton) Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick) Foster, J. G. (Northwich) Maude, J. C. Fox, Sqn.-Ldr. Sir G. Mellor, Sir J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES: Mr. Drewe and Mr. Studholme
NOES. Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South) Battley, J. R. Bowden, Fig.-Offr. H. W. Adamson, Mrs. J. L. Bechervaise, A. E. Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) Belcher, J. W. Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'p'l, Exch'ge) Alpass, J. H. Bellenger, F. J. Braddock, T. (Mitcham) Attewell, H. C. Benson, G. Brook, D. (Halifax) Austin, H. L. Berry, H. Brooks, T. J. (Rethwell) Ayles, W. H. Beswick, Fit.-Lieut. F. Brown, George (Belper) Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B. Bing, Capt. G. H. C. Brown, T. J. (Ince) Bacon, Miss A. Binns, J. Brown, W. J. (Rugby) Baird, Capt. J. Blackburn, Capt. A. R. Bruce, Maj. D. W. T. Balfour, A. Blenkinsop, Capt. A. Burden, T. W. Barstow, P. G. Blyten, W. R. Burke, W. A. Barton, C. Boardman, H. Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.) Castle, Mrs. B. A. Jones, D T. (Hartlepools) Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. Chamberlain, R. A Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) Silverman, J. (Erdington) Champion, A. J. Keenan, W. Silverman, S. S. (Nelson) Chater, D. Key, C. W. Simmons, C. J. Chetwynd, Capt. G. R Kinley, J. Skeffington, A. M. Clitherow, Dr. R Lee, Miss J. (Cannock) Skinnard, F. W. Cobb, F. A. Levy, B. W. Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.) Cocks, F. S. Lewis, A. W. J (Upton) Smith, T. (Normanton) Collick, P. Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. Snow, Capt. J W. Collindridge, F Longden, F. Solley, L. J. Collins, V. J. McAdam, W. Soskice, Maj. Sir F Comyns, Dr L. McAllister, G Sparks, J. A Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G McEntee, V. La T Stamford, W. Corvedale, Viscount McGhee, H. G Steele, T. Crawley, Fit.-Lieut. A. Mack, J. D. Stross, Dr. B Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S. McKay, J. (Wallsend) Stubbs, A. E. Daggar, G. Maclean, N. (Govan) Summerskill, Dr. Edith Davies, Edward (Burslem) McLeavy, F. Swingler, Capt. S Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.) Mallalieu, J. P. W. Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield) Deer, G. Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.) Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) Diamond J. Mathers, G. Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet) Dodds, N. N. Mayhew, C. P. Thomas, Ivor (Keighley) Driberg, T. E. N Messer, F. Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin) Dumpleton, C. W. Middleton, Mrs. L. Thomas, John R. (Dover) Edeiman, M. Mitchison, Maj. G. R Thomas, George (Cardiff) Edwards John (Blackburn) Monslow, W. Thorneycroft, H. (Manchester, C.) Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) Montague, F. Thurtle, E. Evans, E. (Lowestoft) Moody, A. S Tiffany, S Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury) Moyle, A. Tolley, L. Ewart, R. Murray, J. D Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G Farthing, W. J Naylor, T. E Turner-Samuels, M. Follick, M. Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford) Ungoed-Thomas, L. Foot, M. M. Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford) Usborne, Henry Foster, W. (Wigan) Noel-Buxton, Lady Vernon, Maj. W. F Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford) Oldfield, W. H Viant, S. P. Gaitskell, H. T. N Oliver, G. H. Walkden, E. Gibson, C. W Orbach, M. Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst) Gilzean, A. Paget, R. T. Warbey, W. N Gooch, E. G. Paling, Rt. Hen. Wilfred (Wentworth) Watkins, T. E Gordon-Walker, P. C. Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Webb, M. (Bradford, C.) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A Pargiter, G. A Weitzman, D. Grey, C. F. Parker, J. Wells, W. T. (Walsall) Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) Parkin, Fit.-Lieut. B. T. Westwood, Rt. Hon. J. Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly) Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe) White, H (Derbyshire, N.E.) Griffiths, Capt. W. D. (Moss Side) Paton, J. (Norwich) Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. Gunter, Capt. R. J Pearson, A. Wigg, Colonel G E. Haire, Flt.-Lieut. J. (Wycombe) Peart, Capt. T. F Wilkes, Maj. L Hale, Leslie Perrins, W. Wilkins, W. A Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley) Popplewell, E Willey, F. T. (Sunderland) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Porter, E. (Warrington) Willey, O. G. (Cleveland) Haworth, J. Price, M. P. Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove) Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) Ranger, J. Williams, W. R. (Heston) Herbison, Miss M. Rees-Williams, Lt.-Col. D. R Williamson, T Holman, P. Reeves, J. Willis, E. House, G. Reid, T. (Swindon) Wilson, J. H Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Rhodes, H. Yates, V. F. Hughes, Lt. H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.) Robens, A. Young, Sir R. (Newton) Hutchinson, H. L (Rusholme) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) Zilliacus, K. Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) Rogers, G. H R. Irving, W J. Sargood, R. TELLERS FOR THE NOES Janner, B. Scott-Elliot, W. Mr. J. Henderson and Jeger, Capt. G. (Winchester) Segal, Sq.-Ldr S. Capta in Michael Stewart Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.) Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
First and Second Schedules agreed to.
Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, to be considered Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 70.]
Local Government (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Bill
Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
6.12 p.m.
This is purely a Scottish Bill, corresponding to the Local Government (Financial Provisions) Bill for England and Wales to which the House gave a Third Reading on 22nd January. Its purpose, like that of the English Bill, is to provide for an interim adjustment in the block grant payable to local authorities by increasing its amount during the present year and the next two financial years. The Bill provides for an increase in the block grant of £1,375,000 in the current year, an increase of £1,512,500 in 1946–47 and of £1,650,000 in 1947–48. These amounts are the Goschen equivalent to the increases agreed to for England and Wales. It has already been explained to the House that the Goschen equivalent is not unfavourable to Scotland, and has been taken exceptionally on this occasion because the collection of the necessary data from the local authorities for the purpose of a more exact calculation would have entailed considerable delay.
The average additional rate relief throughout Scotland is 7.7d. in the current year rising to 9.2d. in the third year, but the relief in some of the poorer counties will be considerably more than this. For example, in Caithness the rate relief will be 2S. 1⅖d. rising to 2s. 6½d.; in Ross and Cromarty the relief will be 2s. 1 1/10d rising to 2s. 6⅕d.; in Lanarkshire, 10⅘. rising to is. id.; in West Lothian, 11d., rising to 1s. l⅕. and in Banff, 2s. 2⅕d. rising to 2s. 7⅖d.
Has the right hon. Gentleman figures for the South of Scotland?
I understand that the figures were put before Members when an Amendment was being moved in Scottish Grand Committee, and I beg the House not to ask me to give full details now. The distribution proposed gives effect to the general wishes of the local authorities, pending a further review of the block grant, and a more general review of the financial relations between the Exchequer and local authorities.
6.18 p.m.
Like all Scottish Members, I welcome this Bill, so far as it goes. As was pointed out on the Second Reading and in Committee by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Mr. Reid), we do not regard it as doing very much in the way of providing relief or assistance to local authorities in Scotland. Therefore, the best thing that can be said about it is that it is all right so far as it goes. The sum of £1,375,000 in the current year, rising by some £250,000 to £500,000 in 1946–47, is not, in our opinion, a very substantial increase or a handsome donation to Scottish local authorities. I am perfectly aware that the Association of County Councils in Scotland, as a whole, welcome this Bill, but that is not to say that the representa- tives of the counties are as enthusiastic as that splendid body. After all, they have not had the same opportunity of placing pressure on the Executive as we, the elected representatives of the people of Scotland, have in Parliament assembled. It is very easy for a Minister to interview a body such as that, and to terrify them or bully them into whatever the Minister tells them is good for them to have—although I do not say that the right hon. Gentleman would do such a thing.
By some mesmeric power he would be able to persuade them that he was really doing something very big towards assisting them, something for the rating relief of Scotland as a whole, when in fact he was really doing little or nothing. This relief in the first year, this £1,375,000—I quote from memory—would only have sufficed to have kept the great second world conflict going for something like two hours when it was at its height. We are told that we have to regard this £1,375,000 in the first year, rising to £250,000 more the second year, and £500,000 more in the third year, as being something very big indeed. I am sorry I cannot accept that. The right hon. Gentleman brushed me aside when I ventured to ask him the figures for Stewartry, Wigtownshire, and Dumfriesshire. I should like to know these figures and I am sure my hon. Friend behind me would also like to know. The Minister thought I was putting the question hostilely but, in fact, I was merely asking for information, like a well remembered character in fiction.
If every Member gets up and asks me for the figures of his own county it is not really helping Scotland and in any case these questions were discussed in the Scottish Grand Committee. However, I will give the figures for Kirkcudbrightshire. They are 11.6d., 12.8d. and 14d.
I must beg the right hon. Gentleman to realise that I was not putting the question in a hostile spirit. He was reading figures and I thought he had them at his disposal. Had he replied in this sense in the first instance we should have been saved any argument [ Interruption. ] On the Third Reading it is only possible to discuss what is actually in a Bill, and I am certainly not intending to discuss anything else. What I have already described as a paltry assistance is now being held out to the local authorities in Scotland as a very great bait and inducement indeed. It was said on the Second Reading, by the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead, that unless there is to be some very much more generous contribution from the Treasury towards local authorities in Scotland, the ambitious programmes of this or any succeeding Government will be very difficult to carry out.
I wholeheartedly subscribe to that view, and would just cite the Water (Scotland) Bill which left this House for another place last week. How will it be possible to carry out such a Measure—we were not allowed to discuss the financial aspect of it—designed, as we are all agreed, to do something really big to provide proper water supplies for Scotland, particularly in the rural areas, unless financial assistance grants are to be made on a very much larger scale than has prevailed hitherto? For instance, the amount of money for supplying water to Scotland, as far as Aberdeen alone is concerned, is less by a million pounds than what would be necessary to carry out the work in that great county. I use this as an illustration of what may happen unless we bring pressure, to bear on the Government. It is the constant duty of Members of this House—because unlike local authorities they have a way of bringing pressure to bear on the Ministers—to impress on the Executive—on any Executive, not on this one alone, merely because it is a Socialist Executive—the necessity of realising the position in Scotland, and the utter impracticability of carrying out real schemes of social reforms there unless there is to be a real and generous assistance from the Treasury here in London.
In conclusion I will say, as I said at the beginning, that so far as this very limited Bill goes, the few coppers—that is all that they are, and I am sure the Lord Privy Seal will agree, since he said a few years ago that £ s. d. were meaningless symbols—that are being doled out we welcome, in a very limited degree, as being a token of something better and bigger to come for Scotland in the future.
6.27 p.m.
The views of Scottish Members, were very fully put in this House on the Second Reading of this Bill, and I do not think there is any need at this stage to reiterate all the arguments then brought forward. So far as this side of the House is concerned I think the position was made abundantly clear in a speech by the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid). We all accept this as an interim provision and as that only. We all know—and the right hon. Gentleman opposite knows—the great need there is for a complete revision and I am certain he will press that in the Cabinet and with the Government. The people of Scotland are suffering today under a very heavy burden and the sooner relief can be obtained the better. I am certain the right hon. Gentleman has that in mind and, therefore, I will add no more at this stage in the proceedings.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
Assurance Companies Bill
As Amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
SECOND SCHEDULE (Adaptations, etc., for Special Cases)
I beg to move, in page 12, line 4, after "whether," insert "in the opinion of the auditor."
I move this Amendment in the absence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton). He was to have moved it and I am prepared to accept it. I understand that it is put forward by certain professional bodies as making rather clearer what the sense of the Schedule already is. I see no objection to that clarification.
Amendment agreed to.
FOURTH SCHEDULE (Enactment repealed)
I beg to move, in page 17, line 24, column 3, leave out "the Eighth Schedule."
The purpose of this Amendment is to put right a small drafting error. Under the Bill the Eighth Schedule of the principal Act is replaced by a new Schedule B in Part II of the Second Schedule of the present Bill, and the new Schedule is to be substituted for the old as from such date as the Board of Trade may by Order appoint. It is quite inappropriate, therefore, to repeal the old Schedule as otherwise there would be no Regulation until the appointed date.
May I say that we on this side readily accept the Amendment?
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
6.30 p.m.
This is a short and useful Bill which has met with general acceptance in the House and which has the purpose of dealing with two points of some little importance to the assurance interests of this country. There have been, as the House will recollect, a number of Committees which have considered this point for the last few years. It was thought, in view of the ending of the war, that it was necessary to consider certain aspects of the matters recommended by those Committees, in order to make Amendments in our insurance legislation.
The two essential recommendations which are carried out in the Bill are, first of all, that marine, aviation and transit insurances are brought within the ambit of the main principles of the Assurance Companies' Act. Secondly, steps are taken, as were recommended by the Cassel Committee, to prevent die founding of mushroom companies and to enable the Board of Trade to step in, at an earlier stage than is possible under the existing law, with a view to preventing insolvency. The high reputation which the insurance market in Great Britain holds has in the past been owing to the soundness of the protection of those who are doing business with it. We have relied very largely upon the theory that if returns are published and can be seen by those who are interested, it is the best check on unsound underwriting methods. The Bill carries that position rather further in certain matters which I have mentioned, where it was felt that it was unsatisfactory before. I feel that the passing of the Bill will make stronger our claims in the international market to be considered as the centre of the insurance world.
I only wish to make it clear that we on this side of the House welcome the Bill. We shall be glad to see it on the Statute Book. We should like to endorse what the President of the Board of Trade has said about the standing of British insurance companies. We think the Bill is a necessary protection, and that it will be very beneficial to the country and those interested.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
Supply
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. HUBERT BEAUMONT in the Chair]
Civil Estimates, Supplementary Estimate, 1945
Class I
House of Commons
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding ƒ6,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the salaries and expenses of the House of Commons."
Government Hospitality
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding ƒ15,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for a grant in aid of the Government Hospitality Fund."
6.35 p.m.
I do not think that the moment for debating this Supplementary Estimate has been very happily chosen. It is hardly the moment to discuss the cost of Government hospitality when we are entertaining in London a large number of foreign visitors. It is a little indicative of the lack of consideration which the Lord President of the Council, who is in charge of the business of this House, displays to so many other people. It is not on that point that I wish to make any particular complaint. I want to ask the Minister of Works, who is to reply, whether it is not possible, when international conferences take place, for us to display rather more imagination about the manner in which we entertain guests from overseas.
I have spent a few moments in the Library looking up details of recent functions which His Majesty's Government have been happy to be able to offer to our distinguished visitors. I am bound to say there is a certain amount of sameness about them. They seem to alternate between three hotels. So that I shall not be accused of advertising I shall not mention them by name. I am in equal doubt whether that is the way in which we can give the greatest pleasure to our guests, which is the purpose of Government hospitality. I see, sitting very modestly at the end of the Government Front Bench, the hon. Lady who is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, and who was my charming travelling companion in Australia and New Zealand She will recollect, as I do, the great pains to which those two Governments went to entertain us, under the most delightful circumstances. I think, for example, of an entertainment we had from the Government of New South Wales. We were entertained in all sorts of interesting and attractive places.
If we exercised our imagination I believe we could offer to our guests from overseas greater pleasure in the entertainment we give than by just taking them one evening to the Savoy, a second evening to the Dorchester and a third evening to Claridges. I do not know what is the answer, but surely we can do something better than that. The Government are to be congratulated on arranging the dinner in the banqueting hall of the Royal Naval College. That kind of entertainment offered to our friends is appreciated. They were in that ancient building which has some considerable architectural merit. The service at the Royal Naval College was such that the evening will no doubt remain in the memory of all those who were so happy as to enjoy that example of Government hospitality. Could we not exercise similar care in choosing the arrangements for our visitors?
What about the banqueting hall in Whitehall? Would not that be a good place, even if we had to reconvert it back to its original purposes and to arrange for the Museum to be transferred somewhere else? Alternatively, there is the Royal Hospital at Chelsea, where equally attractive accommodation could be offered to foreign visitors. I daresay there is accommodation inside the ancient Tower of London, where our visitors would see something interesting in English history, and where they could be given a kind of service very different from that of the ordinary luxury hotel, which can be duplicated in any of the capitals of the world.
The House of Commons should assist the Government in entertaining our visitors in the best way we possibly can. I hope that some words I have used may give the Government ground at any rate for exploration of the possibilities. I put it no higher than that. It may be that as a result of this Supplementary Estimate we may discover how to offer better entertainment and happy memories to our visitors from overseas and particularly to visitors from our Dominions, whom we are so delighted to see among us.
I should like to add my observations to those which have just been made. In connection with Government hospitality there is a misuse of a happy and fortunate word. Government hospitality to the extent of £45,000 is provided for in the Revised Estimate. I do not know to what extent the money is provided in relation to the country with which I am particularly associated, Scotland. I have knowledge that many distinguished visitors have come to this country who have had no idea of the attractions of Scotland, but have been circumscribed by visits to the Savoy or the Dorchester.
There are other places for which they would have been more interested to visit. I do not know if His Majesty's Government always have that in mind. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland will stake a claim in that direction. I would remind the House that the National Trust of Scotland have decided to provide a residence for distinguished visitors to this country, in order to introduce more noticeably the history and the characteristics of my native land. In this connection I plead for a less circumscribed Government hospitality. These attempts to confine it within the narrow limits of the county of London, is a typical piece of Cockneyism, which I think should be repudiated by all parts of the country.
May I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston (Mr. Butcher) for his suggestions? I can assure him that they will be taken into consideration. He asked in his opening remarks why we should be discussing this question at a time when we have foreign visitors here, since it seems a little inopportune that we should be talking about £ s. d. at the same time as we are entertaining them. The reason for the supplementary Estimate is that we had not anticipated the outbreak of peace when the Estimate was made, and whenever peace breaks out after a war, there are always far more conferences and visits from distinguished individuals. The additional £15,000 for which I am asking is necessary in order to meet the very limited hospitality which is shown. I would place on record that, to the extent of our ability, we have used the facilities available, I think with advantage. In the days before the war, the Hospitality Fund was bigger than it is now, but during the war our opportunities for showing hospitality were limited and some of those places which have been mentioned were not then available. To the extent that we have been able, we have made use of the House of Commons. As other places become available, this Fund will be used for entertaining in them, I believe, with advantage. I do not think that any Member of this House would object to the small amount which we are providing in order that we might show our respect for those who come to visit us. If we cannot do it as well as some folk he has mentioned, we will do our best within our limited capacity to show that we welcome them.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £15.000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for a grant in aid of the Government Hospitality Fund."
Repayments to the Local Loans Fund
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £82,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for making the payment due to the Local Loans Fund in respect of advances in Northern Ireland."
Royal Commissions, Etc
Motion made, and Question proposed:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £165,000, be, granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the salaries and other expenses of Royal Commissions, Committees, and special enquiries, etc., including provision for shorthand."
6.45 p.m.
We are asked to vote £165,000 for the purpose of running a number of Royal Commissions. It is my firm conviction that no Royal Commission or combination of Royal Commissions is worth £165,000. We must consider what a Royal Commission is, what it does, and whether it is worth the sum which we are asked to vote here tonight. A Royal Commission is a device for saying "No" to every claim which may be advanced at one go. The method is to select first of all, some innocuous Lord and put him in charge of the Commission; then some four members of the Government side are appointed, and these are balanced by a corresponding number from the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party. The Independent Party is almost invariably ignored in this connection, but if the Government goes outside the House of Commons, and appoints one lady of local birth, one middle-class woman, and usually a working-class woman, the whole thing is so arranged that change is impossible. It is so weakly balanced and counter-balanced that it cannot be automatically guaranteed that anything whatever of value will emerge from the Royal Commission—if ever we get a Report. There are many Commissions from which we never do get a Report.
The hon. Gentleman is discussing the whole question of Royal Commissions. The question is whether £165,000 should be granted in this particular case.
As a Member of the House of Commons, I am being asked to vote the sum of £165,000 as a Supplementary Estimate for Royal Commissions, and I am now engaged in the argument that Royal Commissions are not worth that. If I prove my point, I am entitled to ask to refuse £165,000 for Royal Commissions.
As I observe that the whole of the sum here asked for is for the Royal Commission on Population, should not the Debate be limited to that particular Royal Commission?
Yes. It is not possible to discuss the whole question of Royal Commissions here.
When you, Major Milner, read out the Estimate for the consideration of this Committee, were the words which you read the amount required for the year to pay salaries and other expenses for Royal Commissions, following very closely the words which appear at the top of page 7 of the Estimates?
That is true, but it is qualified by the details which are set out in the Supplementary Estimate itself.
That is where my confusion arises. I take it that we are discussing the Supplementary Estimates in quite general terms.
The details which the Committee are entitled to discuss are those set out on page 7.
Perhaps I may call attention to the fact that on the Supplementary Estimates in the White Paper, the heading under item 19 is "Royal Commissions, etc," and that seems to entitle me to raise a question. Why come immediately to the Royal Commission on the decline in the birthrate? Anyone who wishes to spend £165,000 on any Royal Commission is wrong, but anyone who wishes to spend that sum on an inquiry why women do not have more children is insane. The narrower this argument is drawn, the more overwhelming becomes the case which I now present. Do we need to send women round from door to door to ask other women why they do not have more children? The reasons are obvious; first, there is no room for them; second, there is no clothing; third, there is no food; and fourth, there are not sufficient maternity wards for them. The whole idea of spending £165,000 of public money to send people round inquiring why people do not have more children is crazy. I look to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to put a firm foot down on all snoopers of every kind, and especially snoopers who go round inquiring why women do not have more babies than they do. This is an abuse of public monies, and I accordingly invite this Committee to say that they do not think £165,000 should be spent upon the object for which this Supplementary Estimate is presented to us tonight.
I would like to follow up what has been said by the hon. Member. for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) and say that I, too, regard this as a complete waste of public money on the ground that, as I understand it, there is no obligation to answer the inquiries that may be made at the front door; in other words, a certain class of persons will answer the inquiry as they think fit, and another class of persons will refuse to answer that inquiry. The results will then be tabulated and will be expected to prove something, and I am bound to say that I think it is quite useless to suggest that in terms of taking a sample of the population, and then permitting people to answer, questions or not as they may think fit, you can secure results which will be of any use at all in dealing with so important and intimate a subject as the decline of population.
I will carry my criticism of this Estimate a little further and ask for some information from the Financial Secretary. We come, under Part III, to "Fees payable to Enumerators." It is worth finding out what the enumerator is to get. Is she paid on a piece-work basis, by results? On the next line we find "Salaries, etc., of Supervisory and Clerical Staffs," which are nearly 50 per cent. of those of the enumerators. It seems to me that this is most extravagantly run even if, in fact, it served any useful purpose at all. My impression is, I think, rather confirmed when we look at the next item, "Travelling and Incidental Expenses, £21,000." Surely, if these enumerators are to be of any use at all they should approach the people in the locality in which they live and, therefore, there will be very little travelling? Or are people to be approached by strangers so as to justify this enormous sum of £21,000? I believe this is a very poor thing, which has managed to get slipped past in the stress of conversion from war to peace, and I hope the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will be able to tell us that he will have second thoughts about this and that we shall not be asked to be burdened with this unnecessary expenditure.
While not associating myself with all that the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) has said, I feel this is an item which calls for very full explanation from the spokesman of the Government. It is clear from this state- ment that a special survey was contemplated at a cost of no more than £15,000. The sudden leap from £15,000 to £180,000 is very considerable, and we are entitled to a full explanation of why this change is being made. It will be within the knowledge of hon. Members that there was a section of the Ministry of Information engaged in social service, doing very valuable work at a very small cost, and I associate myself entirely with what was said by the hon. Member for Holland with Boston (Mr. Butcher) about the magnitude of this Estimate by comparison with the information which it is intended to obtain. It is true that these inquiries have been made officially over and over again, and it is true also that there is general sufficiently accurate knowledge of the sociological causes of the fall in population, and so forth. Therefore, I venture to repeat the hope that the spokesman of the Government will give us a full explanation of the very large figure to which the original figure of £15,000 has become suddenly inflated.
In the City from which I come we have a very low rate burden of 8s. 2d. That was due to the fact that we gave the most meticulous consideration, line by line, often to the annoyance and irritation of the public, to our public expenditure, and I must say that I feel in this Committee similarly inclined. I share the views of the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) and the other speakers on this extraordinary item. Apparently a Government—I do not know which Government—first thought of a sum of £15,000. Even that was beyond anything that was rational, in order to carry out this project, but it has now leapt to the figure of £165,000. It must be within the knowledge of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen that this kind of survey has been conducted many times by voluntary investigators. The great survey, "Life and Labour in London" of Charles Booth, one of the most valuable social documents of our time, was conducted entirely by unpaid investigators, and in Liverpool quite recentiy a similar investigation has been conducted. I want to ask why this extravagantly expensive method has been resorted to. I would ask the Minister of Labour whether the enumerators could not be better employed in these days of great labour shortage than going from door to door asking questions to which they may not receive any answers at all, or to which they may receive false answers. I think it is an extravagant proposal, and I share all the views that have been expressed, not in the House alone but outside it, as to its unwisdom, its untimeliness, and its extravagance, and I would oppose it.
Perhaps I should first of all, in answer to the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown), make it quite clear, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Leeds (Mr. Peake) said, that this £165,000 additional money now being asked for is for use in connection with the Royal Commission which is now carrying out a Population Survey throughout the country. The answer to the question of the hon. Gentleman who sits for Cambridge University (Mr. Wilson Harris), as to why £165,000 is being asked for now and only £15,000 was down in the original Estimate, is that we did not know when the Estimates were first produced that the inquiry would be held during this year. It was known that certain surveys dealing with population would be undertaken, but, when the Estimates were laid down earlier this financial year, it was not contemplated that this particular survey would be held. It is a Family Census, and the terms of reference of the Royal Commission on this matter are:
7 p.m.
It is hoped that as a result of this survey—which is not a "snooping" survey in any sense of the word—we shall be able to get quite a lot of new information which will be of the utmost help to the Government and indeed to all who take an interest in social questions. In reply to the observation of the hon. Member for Rugby, there is no intention that mothers should be asked about their motives or reasons for having children or no children at all. Questions of that kind are not asked, and I can assure the hon. Member that the enumerators are not required to ask any questions which might offend any woman. I think the hon. Member is suffering from a momentary confusion between matters of opinion and vital statistics.
The question of statistics will not be the subject of this inquiry—the Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages has those facts, which are plain, hard facts. This inquiry is not a matter of statistics but to find why the birth-rate is not as high as it ought to be. I suggest that we should not spend £165,000 on that, when any woman in England could tell the hon. Gentleman the reasons.
I am trying to explain to the hon. Member for Rugby that the view he has expressed for the second time is not the correct one. The kind of question he has in mind is not the kind of question which is being asked. The type of question enumerators are invited to put to those upon whom they call are devised to show how the population is built up of families of different sizes. Figures collected by the Registrar-General do not give that information in any complete form. The questions are to discover what is the extent of childlessness amongst married women and whether it is increasing. All the enumerators will ask a woman, and she need not answer unless she wishes, is whether she has any children and how many. No attempt will be made to discover why she has no children. We wish to find out if we can whether the fashion in the size of families is changing either in the country as a whole or in particular groups, and whether there are differences in the size of the family group according to locality, occupation and social class. Figures of that kind, with others, will be most interesting and useful to any Government, whatever its complexion.
I was asked by the hon. Member for Holland with Boston (Mr. Butcher) how these enumerators and others are paid. The number of enumerators employed in the survey is 12,000, the local supervisors number 1,125, and there are in addition 28 divisional supervisors and 13 divisional officers. Most of the enumerators are working on a part-time basis, but some of them, of course, are full-time. Although the amount may appear large, I think that on reflection the Committee will agree that it is not excessive considering the ground to be covered, and the value of the information once it is obtained.
While I am grateful to the Financial Secretary for his courtesy, I do not regard his answer as in any way satisfactory. It seems to me that the questions the enumerators are not to put are those to which the Government would wish to have an answer. I turn again to the question of supervision. We have 1,125 people supervising the work of 12,000 people. One in every n is a supervisor, and a supervisor gets £40 as opposed to approximately £9 which the enumerator gets. The supervision can only be continued while the work is being done and, therefore, it seems to me that the rates paid and the number of supervisors is out of all proportion to the importance of the job. I must ask the Financial Secretary to deal with the point I raised about travelling expenses amounting to £21,000.
Would the Financial Secretary tell us whether the whole of the information is not available in the offices of clerks to urban and rural district councils?
In reply to the last Question, my information is "No." No government would attempt to run a survey of this kind if the information they were to get was already available in the offices of local authorities.
Without going too deeply into the figures, I would tell the hon. Member for Holland with Boston that nearly all the enumerators are part-time only, but 225 at least of the local supervisors are employed full-time. That fact would, of course, make a difference to the percentage of remuneration of the one class against the other. A good deal of travelling too, is involved in the work. The whole of England is not one vast town, and enumerators are paid on a mileage basis where they have to make journeys to collect the information in outlying districts. The estimate allowed for travelling and charges of that kind is thought to be reasonable, but if we find at the end of the year that it was excessive, so much the better.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £165,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the salaries and other expenses of Royal Commissions, Committees, and special inquiries, etc., including provision for shorthand."
Class VIII
Royal Irish Constabulary Pensions, Etc
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £20,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the expenses of pensions, compensation allowances and gratuities awarded to retired and disbanded members and staff of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and to widows of such members, including annuities to the National Debt Commissioners in respect of commutation of compensation allowances and certain extra-statutory payments."
On a point of Order. Do I understand that we have passed all the Votes from number 19 to the bottom of the page?
The Vote is being taken in the precise order in which it appears on the Order Paper.
On the Question that this sum be provided for the Irish Constabulary and Pensioners, I wish to ask the Financial Secretary when he intends to bring in the Bill to revise the present rates of pensions for this and other Services which he promised the House on the last day before the Christmas Recess? We had a discussion then on the Pensions (Increases) Bill which affects—
I do not think that has any reference to this Royal Irish Constabulary Estimate.
The Bill covers the Royal Irish Constabulary—
But it has no reference to this particular Estimate, which is directed to sums which either have been or are now being incurred.
Unless we know what the Government intend to do about this particular Bill, the House of Commons will have no idea at all whether the sum proposed in the Supplementary Estimate is adequate or inadequate. How can we know whether an Estimate is adequate or inadequate until we know what are the intentions of the Government? On the last day of the Session before Christmas we tried to ask the Government their intentions and we were then promised by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that he would go into this matter and he would not wait for another year.
The hon. Gentleman really cannot raise that question. What he is desirous of doing is obtaining some indication from the Government as to when they propose to bring in some other legislation. This Supplementary Estimate is payable under existing law. We can have no reference to some Bill which may or may not be brought in. I am afraid that is not in order.
On a point of Order. Unless the Treasury is doing its business in a very bad way—and I would never accuse the Treasury of doing that: my only complaint about the Treasury is that it is far too efficient in a parsimonious way—the Supplementary Estimate is intended to cover the period until the end of the year. We do not know whether this sum of money will be adequate to the end of the year unless we know the date when the Government propose to bring in the Bill.
The end of the year is 31st March, 1946.
That allows us nearly two months.
I appreciate your Ruling, Mr. Chairman, and I immediately conform, but with a view to eliciting some of the information which the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) desires, very properly, if I may say so, I venture to put this question to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury: namely, I would ask if he would indicate the number of men who are subject to compensation and the rates of compensation which they are receiving—
I am sorry, but I have not got these figures by me. I will try to ascertain them, and let my hon. Friend have them privately after the Debate. In answer to the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown), I think he can take it that in our view this additional sum of £20,000 required will be adequate. It does not provide for a new Bill being introduced, or rather an Amending Bill to the 1944 Act being introduced, and passed before the end of March next.
This is a very important matter to about 750,000 people in Britain. Might I ask whether this means that the end of March is going to pass before that promised Bill is coming here, because if so, believe me, there is going to be some feeling in the country about that.
We are now within eight weeks of the end of the Financial Year and all the indications appear to be that the Bill will not be introduced before that date.
Well, then, we shall have to get another Financial Secretary.
If by any chance the worst fears of my hon. Friend are not realised and it is introduced, then it is always possible, if necessary, to introduce a Supplementary Estimate. We ask for the £20,000 for the purposes mentioned at the top, and at the bottom under sub-head F of page 26 of the White Paper. I hope now the Committee will let us have this without further Debate.
Question put, and agreed to.
Class X
Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries (War Services)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the cost of the war services of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries."
I do not want to delay the Committee unduly, but I do not think this should be allowed to pass without some explanation from the Government as to the nature of the receipts which have been received. The Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries was invited to give trading accounts in respect of the operations of the Council of the War Agricultural Executive Committee. For my part, I appreciate the difficulty there would be in doing that; on the other hand, I think it would be desirable that at this stage the Government should indicate what has been the result of the farming operations on the land which the war agricultural committees have farmed during the war. I do not doubt that information must be given to us in gross total at the present time. There are other items on which I would wish to ask certain questions, namely, the receipts—
I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman is not entitled to discuss the Appropriations made.
I appreciate that, Major Milner, but on the other hand I would try to relate my remarks to the note printed at the foot of page 29, where it says:
"This Estimate is presented in order to obtain Parliamentary authority for the application of the receipts realised in connection with these services…"
Therefore, subject to your guidance, I thought I would be in Order if I related my remarks to the question of receipts and not to questions of expenditure. I want to ask only one further question, and that would be that I would be glad to know if we may have some information as to the financial results—to keep within your ruling I put it in the broadest terms—of the employment of prison labour in this country. That would be helpful and of service to all those who have the welfare of this industry at heart.
7.15 p.m.
Those questions, as I thought, cannot be discussed.
Question put, and agreed to.
Ministry of Aircraft Production
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Aircraft Production."
On this matter might I ask—
I think the same question applies there. This is also an Appropriation.
It may be permissible to ask some questions. Is the Minister of Aircraft Production satisfied that the Appropriation-in-Aid for which he has asked is anything like as much as he would really need, because if not we ought to give him more than he is asking for? I do not see the Minister here. Is he satisfied this is enough to meet his needs if he is to prevent a walk-out of the Ministry of Aircraft Production staff, because, at the moment, there is great underpayment in that industry?
The hon. Gentleman is now discussing the policy of a Department. It is not permissible to do that in a case of this sort where it is an Appropriation-in-Aid.
On a point of Order. Surely it is within the competence of this Committee to discuss and determine whether a particular sum asked for by a particular Minister is too little, just right, or too much. How on earth we can discuss that without envisaging the crises that may confront the Minister of Aircraft Production, particularly as a result of the underpayment of civil servants who will walk out the moment the Control of Employment Order is banished—
The proper time is when the Estimate of the Department comes up in the ordinary way.
Yes, but on a point of Order, the Estimate for the Department is here. You are not calling that tonight, Mr. Chairman, there were very powerful observations which I wanted to make on the treatment of the police, and which I am not able to make because you have not called them.
There is an occasion, no doubt, on which that matter may be raised.
Perhaps I may shorten the discussion and help the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Brown). All the estimates given in Class X found on pages 29 to 37 are all of the same kind. They are hardy annuals, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North (Mr. Peake), who was my predecessor at the Treasury, knows only too well.
So is the under-payment of civil servants.
All these Votes are in the same category and are known as technical supplementaries. They are presented for technical bookkeeping reasons and nothing else. If hon. Members will look at the Estimates they will see that each of them has a footnote at the bottom which helps to explain just what they are. Their object is to obtain Parliamentary sanction for the setting off receipts by the Departments concerned against expenditure which these Departments have incurred. If these Estimates were not passed, it would mean that receipts coming into any given Department, for say the Women's Land Army, the sale of agricultural machinery or the sale of seeds, to take as an example the Ministry of Agriculture's Estimate, mentioned by the hon. Member for Holland with Boston (Mr. Butcher), would have to be paid into the Exchequer, which would mean that that Department would have to draw more under the vote of credit, to meet expenditure. That would have swollen the accounts unnecessarily on both sides. This device is therefore employed in order to permit Departments to appropriate receipts and set them off against expenditure, thus lessening their drawings on the Exchequer. That is the reason why these figures are here. It is not that an appropriation of £29 millions has been asked for by the Ministry of Agriculture, nor does the question arise whether it is or is not enough. This sum happens to be the estimated total of receipts which have come in and which that Department wants to keep and use instead of handing them over to the Treasury. I hope that explanation satisfies the hon. Member and explains the matter to him. That is the reason why he cannot put the points he desires. These estimates are purely technical ones which the Committee has to accept under our rules of procedure.
Question put, and agreed to.
Ministry of Fuel and Power (War Services)
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1946, for the cost of the war services of the Ministry of Fuel and Power."
Ministry of Health (War Services)
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1946, for the cost of the war services of the Ministry of Health."
Home Office (War Services)
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1946, for the cost of the war services of the Home Office."
Ministry of Supply
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1946, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Supply, including the expenses of the Royal Ordnance Factories."
I gather that this Vote covers the expenses of all—
I am sorry, but this is a matter of accountancy or Appropriation-in-Aid, and the hon. Member cannot discuss details.
I wanted to discuss the owners of the ordnance factories—
I am sorry, but the hon. Member cannot do that.
Without going into the merits of these various Votes, I would just say, as one who is interested in the procedure of this House, that it seems to me a most extraordinarily cumbersome method, occupying the time of the House which might be devoted to other purposes, to deal with the situation in this way. From what the Parliamentary Secretary has said, there is not—
The Noble Lord cannot raise that question.
I am discussing exactly the same principle as the Financial Secretary, who, I understood gave an explanation why this method was adopted—
I understand the Noble Lord to be discussing a question of procedure.
I am objecting to the fact that this form of procedure was adopted, because I think it wastes the time of the House, and I think it would be very much better if we took a decision in principle to permit the Departments to make this arrangement where con- venient to them, and, having reported it to us, it would enable the time of the House to be used for other purposes and save a lot of paper and printing.
Question put, and agreed to.
Ministry of War Transport
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1946, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of War Transport."
Ministry of Works (War Services)
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the cost of the war services of the Ministry of Works."
Department of Agriculture for Scotland (War Services)
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the cost of the war services of the Department of Agriculture for Scotland."
Class II
India and Burma Services
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for India and His Majesty's Secretary of State for Burma, and a grant in aid of military expenditure from Indian Revenues."
The Committee will remember that, when this Delegation was appointed—
The Noble Lord is about to discuss the question of the Delegation, and that, of course, will not be in order on this Appropriation.
rose —
On a point of Order, Major Milner. Am I not entitled to say something about the terms of reference of this Delegation, for which an Estimate has been prepared? It seems to me that I am in Order with very great respect to you, Major Milner, and, if so, I would like to know—
I beg the Noble Lord's pardon; I see he is in Order. This is not an Appropriation in the ordinary sense.
May I point out, Mr. Chairman, that this is the first time we have had this matter before the House and that we were promised by the Leader of the House an opportunity of discussing it?
When this Delegation was appointed, the Committee will remember that my Noble Friend the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) asked the Leader of the House whether this Delegation would report, and the Leader of the House gave an answer to the effect that, possibly, there might be something said upstairs by this Delegation when it got back, but there was no undertaking that there was to be a Report. I would like to ask the Under-Secretary whether it is right that any sum could be granted for expenses about which we are, apparently, to know nothing at all. There is one other point I wish to put. Suppose, for example, a member of this Delegation, while the Delegation is in India, were to go off and deal with one of the instances of disaffection in the Royal Air Force. That might, in itself, be a very wise thing to do, but are the expenses for that coming out of this grant? I do not think they should. It has nothing whatever to do with a goodwill mission to India, which is what the Delegation was appointed for. To take another example, supposing a Member of the delegation were to go to Indonesia, and send home telegrams would the expenses for that visit come out of this Vote? I would like the hon. and learned Gentleman to throw some light on these questions.
7.30 p.m.
I rather regret—though, of course, I make no charge of discourtesy against the hon. and learned Gentleman—that he has been so reticent about this matter, because I would call his attention to HANSARD, which reported the matter when it was first raised. To the astonishment of many of us—I do not know whether it was as a result of any prior consultation with the hon. and learned Gentleman—the Leader of the House announced that a Parliamentary delegation was going to India. He gave us some vague information, if it can be called information; he gave some vague declarations about this delegation and I asked what its object was. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House in one of his jaunty moods waved me aside. I did not want to make the matter controversial. [ Laughter .] I am speaking quite seriously; I do not know why the hon. Gentleman should laugh. There is no controversy about the fact that we all want to do our best by India. I did not want to make the matter controversial, so I did not press the Leader of the House as I would have done if it had been a controversial matter. I did not want to press further what I hoped was a non-controversial matter. I put a perfectly proper question, which was largely supported by cheers from hon. Members on this side of the House, namely, whether this delegation was going to have its expenses paid? First of all, I thought it was a private investigating body of gentlemen—a sort of good-will mission to India—although, frankly, I would like to know what good it is doing at the moment; I do not know. It may have been doing a great deal of good, but it does not seem to have met with universal support. In fact, it has met with opposition from Hindu and Moslem leaders. Still, I was anxious to know what exactly its functions were going to be. The right hon. Gentleman did not seem to know.
Finally, I suggested—and here I put a point which appears to have met with support from the hon. Gentleman the Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) and others—that this mission, if it was to be sen£ out, should report to this House. I think if we are going to pay the expenses of a body of gentlemen to go out to India on a roving commission to inquire into something, it should at least report the result of those investigations to this House. All we were told was that there would probably be a meeting upstairs open to all Parties. I take exception to that. I think it is in Order on this Vote to ask that we should have an assurance that this Parliamentary delegation will make a report to this House. If I wanted to be rather pernickety about language, I should say that the mere fact it is called a delegation involves the connotation that we delegate powers to cer- tain hon. Members of this House, and we ought to hear what they have to say. As I say, it may be doing a great deal of good, but there is no evidence yet of its having done either good or harm, except that it has been universally attacked by Indian public opinion. Every leader of public opinion, I think, has attacked it as being useless. They say, "Why cannot the Government and the House of Commons make up their own minds what they are going to do? Why do they send out these gentlemen—no doubt worthy members of the community—on a goodwill mission?" I think the hon. Gentleman should tell us what has been the progress of this body so far. What has been achieved? Have any interim reports come in? Further, I would ask the hon. and learned Gentleman to answer the question put by my Noble Friend the Member for Midlothian and Peebles (Lord John Hope), as to whether the members of this mission, out of these expenses, are entitled to go all over Indonesia? Are they entitled to make speeches of their own views? What are the functions of these gentlemen? Have they any instructions from the Government? Have they been told, "We will give you a sum of money and you can travel about and make any speeches that you like. You can advocate Socialism if you like, or you may advocate Toryism if you like? It would be a most improper position if that were so. Therefore I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman to tell us what is exactly the position of this delegation today.
I rise to support the point put by my Noble Friend above the gangway. I take it as axiomatic that any delegation, the expenses of which are paid from the public funds of this country under the control of the House of Commons, are responsible to the House of Commons when they return. That seems to be an axiom, unless we are to have what I might describe as extra-Parliamentary accountancy which, on the lines of what happened earlier today, I would be bound strongly to resist. This point is important. I am not satisfied that the composition of this delegation is right. So far as I know there is no Independent Member on the delegation and, therefore, no confidence can be placed in the character of its report. Another very important point emerges as a result of recent experi- ence in America. Whose is the copyright in their report? Will it come to the House of Commons or will it be released at a high fee to an American magazine? This point which I raise is one of some importance. As a condition of the House of Commons paying the delegation, the report ought to come back to us and not to a hole and corner meeting upstairs. On this point of principle, the aristocracy and democracy are completely united.
The Noble Lord has addressed various questions which I will endeavour to answer. First of all, I would say that no communications have been received by the Government from the delegation or from any members of it. I am not in a position to say whether the delegation has been a success. The Noble Lord has informed the Committee that every national leader in India has criticised the delegation—presumably the members of it—but I gather from the Press, including Reuters, that every leader of national opinion in India has, at any rate, found time to receive one or more members of the delegation. As to whether or not the delegation can be regarded as a success, we must, I think, wait until they return to this country.
Perhaps it would be fairer to say they have treated the matter as a joke, rather in the same way as the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) treats every subject.
In view of that observation, the recently cemented alliance between the aristocracy and democracy is dissolved.
There seems to be a private fight on the other side of the Committee. The Noble Lord also asked me to state the objects of this delegation. I can only refer him to the statement that was made by the Leader of the House on 13th December, when he announced that the delegation was to be sent. He said on that occasion:
The Noble Lord then asked whether it was still the view of the Government that any report should be made by the delegation when they returned home. There will be discussions between the Government and the members of the delegation when they return, and certainly no decision could be taken now as to what form the report, if there be a report, would take. Of course, that would not prevent the Noble Lord or anyone else who took the view that there should be a formal report from making representations through the usual channels, but until there has been agreement as to whether there will be a report and if so what form that report will take, I cannot do other than refer the Noble Lord once more to the statement made in this House when the delegation was announced.
I think that right hon., hon. and gallant and hon. Members on this side of the Committee have done a service in drawing the attention of the Committee to these expenses. I have been in the House a good many years, and in earlier days certain Parliamentary delegations of this sort invariably travelled under the aegis of the Empire Parliamentary Association and any payment made for the expenses of such delegations was found either by that association, or by its branch in the country overseas to which it was proceeding. I can recall tonight only one precedent for this form of expenditure from the Exchequer and that was the case of the delegation which went out to Russia about 18 months ago under the chairmanship of Colonel Walter Elliot. I think this is an experiment which the House ought to watch very closely. Cer- tainly our relations with Russia have not showed any marked improvement since that good-will mission of Members went there 18 months ago. I only hope that in the case of India the results will not be so similarly disappointing. I think Parliament should keep a very careful eye upon the experiments of this character. I am not at all sure that the money is being well spent, and I am quite sure that my right hon. Friend is absolutely right in saying that, if Parliament and the nation find the money, then Parliament and the nation are entitled to some report from the delegation of the results of their travels. I think that although on this occasion we ought to allow the money to be expended, Parliament should keep a very careful eye on this particular form of expenditure in the future.
Having regard to the need for the report, surely the hon. and learned Gentleman could ascertain what the delegation is doing. Is it not possible to lay a paper in the Library? If we are to spend £5,200 of the taxpayers' money in sending a number of the worthy Members of this House out to India, then we ought to know what they are doing. I apologise, of course, to my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mr. Brown) for what I said, but really this is no frivolous matter.
The alliance is on again.
But really this is no small or frivolous matter. Public money is being spent in sending out this delegation. It may be a good delegation. I am expressing no opinion about it, but I do think that the House of Commons is entitled to have some information as to what they are doing. The hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to me to treat the matter with some slight contempt, and to deal with it in a rather airy way. Surely it is possible for one form of White Paper to be laid explaining exactly what the delegation is for, and what it is intended to do, giving the definite information to which I think this House is entitled.
I will certainly undertake that the Noble Lord's suggestions will receive the careful consideration that they deserve.
7.45 p.m
I do not agree that this delegation is not doing any good in India. Obviously it is serving a useful purpose to send a delegation of Members of this House out to India, in order to increase the general knowledge of the House of that great Dominion. I am rather astonished to hear the suggestion that this good-will mission is not having any good effect. I am even more astonished to hear the former Financial Secretary to the Treasury say that the good-will mission to Russia had no good effect. That delegation went out to Russia under the leadership of a former distinguished member of his party, Colonel Walter Elliot. Colonel Elliot in 1939—and probably until he went out to Russia with the mission—had nothing but the most stupid ideas about the Soviet Union; and it is perfectly clear since he returned that his knowledge and appreciation of the Soviet Union have increased enormously. I think we can look forward to such an increased knowledge of the peoples of India and their problems as a result of this delegation as will more than justify its expenditure.
If I may make the suggestion, a little knowledge may be a very dangerous thing. As far as the House of Commons is concerned, if it had wanted to send out a mission to obtain some valuable information about India for its own benefit, it would have chosen a very different delegation and it would have given the delegation instructions to go into the situation much more systematically and methodically, and to study it over a very much longer period of time. Then it could have produced a report which would have been worthy of the attention of this House. I could not help wondering why any one should express a strong desire to have any report at all from this delegation. Those who were in the House when the, Lord President of the Council announced its formation, could hardly avoid gaining the impression that the Leader of the House proposed it, because he had nothing better else to propose, that it had been selected more or less to convey a message of good will to the people of India. There was no suggestion that investigations would justify a report. I agree with the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Brown) that the composition of the delegation might have been greatly improved. I am certain there can be no question of an agreed report, and I can hardly think that a report could have any value made by a delegation composed as this one is. In addition the delegation, in going about its task, has been discussing matters which were not a part of its original mission, and the only report it could present would be a majority report with two or three minority reports. Therefore, I would suggest that whatever report may be desired, it should not be taken too seriously by this House, or by any one else.
Surely to suggest that public money should be spent in educating Tory back benchers in foreign affairs is to suggest an expense which would be unwarranted and prohibitive.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of pay merit during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for India and His Majesty's Secretary of State for Burma, and a grant in aid of military expenditure from Indian Revenues."
Prisons (Scotland)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £19,550, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for salaries and expenses in connection with the administration of Scottish prisons, including the maintenance of criminal lunatics, defectives, and inmates of the State Inebriate Reformatory, and the preparation of judicial statistics."
I rise to draw attention in this Estimate to the item "Victualling, Stores, Equipment, etc." and to point out to the Secretary of State for Scotland the reason for the increase. It is due to an increase in the prison population. The amount of the increase is just half the original Estimate. It seems to be a very considerable increase, and there is a feeling in Scotland that an Estimate of this nature would not have been necessary had the police force been adequate. Can the right hon. Gentleman assure this House that he has taken every possible step to see that police forces are recruited to a strength adequate to meet the present situation existing in the large cities of the country?
I wish to raise on this Estimate, which is expressly concerned with expenses and salaries in connection with the administration of Scottish prisons, what I regard as a very serious issue, and one which requires the urgent attention of the House of Commons. The House will have listened to many speeches and read in the newspapers in recent months many articles on the subject of escapes from prisons. It will recall that, again and again, the Home Secretary has announced that one of the contributory causes of that problem is the lack of staff in prisons. I wish to make three points, the first of which is that a tremendously increased burden is being placed on the limited number of officers we have got and that the danger to them is all the greater when the prisons are understaffed. The second point is that, at the moment, we are keeping those prison officers who are still serving in the different Services where they are only by the operation of the Control of Employment Order (Public Service), 1945. Hon. Members on the Government side will recollect that I attacked that Order as strongly as I could on the day before Parliament adjourned for the Christmas Recess. I was then told by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that the Government would get rid of it as rapidly as they could. Just as soon as that Order goes, and unless something is done about the salaries of prison staffs, there will be something like a general walk-out of prison officers. In my view it is indefensible to allow the Control of Employment Order to be so utilised as to tie men down to sweated and underpaid occupations.
I read in the newspapers this morning that the Government had decided to remove the labour control on something like three million people within the next few months. I beg them to extend that removal to cover the public servants of Britain and the prison officers, with whom this Estimate is concerned. Unless they grapple radically with this question of salaries and conditions of prison officers between now and then they will face a crisis in prison administration which might lead to a breakdown of that service. We carried on during the war because of the Essential Work Order, and all the rest of it, but we are reaching a time when we cannot use that instrument any more. I ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, whom I assume is in charge of this Estimate, whether he is satisfied—as I also asked his colleague of the Home Office—with the present pay and conditions of officers in our prisons, or whether he is not. Bernard Shaw, a name which ought to be received with great respect by the Government side of the House, once said:
I have only one minor inquiry to make. Perhaps my right hon. Friend can give me an explanation of the last section on p. 16. I am curious to know about Item Z:
"Appropriations in Aid. Additional receipts from work undertaken for private customers, £5,000."
Can he tell me what private customers we serve?
I desire to raise one point of great importance on the Estimate which arises on the "Pay and Allowances of Officers" and also on the "Victualling, Stores, Equipment, etc."—the increased number of prisoners. Can the Secretary of State tell me whether any item in these includes extra payment in connection with psychiatrists in His Majesty's prisons? Sexual offences have been on the increase recently, and crimes in connection with sex form a difficult proposition in regard to the administration of justice. The use of psychiatrists in the Armed Forces has been of increasing benefit. This is one of the few countries which claim to be civilised which does not provide that service. Can the Secretary of State say whether arrangements have been made, or will be made before the 31st March, to see that promises made from time to time by His Majesty's judges that prisoners will have medical attention and that an attempt will be made to cure them during their stay in prison is going to be carried out?
I should like to support what the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale) has just said and to draw the attention of the Secretary of State to the last phrase in the first paragraph, namely, "the preparation of judicial statistics." The prison statistics available in Scotland do not contain the kind of information that would enable anyone to compile a book similar to Mannheim's "Social Aspects of Crime in England between the Wars." That has a close bearing on what was said by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. Mannheim raises the very close connection between psychopathic convictions and many more serious convictions, and shows how a man who is first of all convicted for an offence of this character very often turns into a hardened criminal. If I may say so, the Scottish Office has been just a little hard-hearted with regard to such cases and is scarcely in line with modern psychiatry. I hope that the Secretary of State will give this his serious consideration and that we shall learn that the use of psychiatrists, in such cases, has been greatly increased.
8.0 p.m.
Several very interesting questions have been asked, so far, on this particular Supplementary Estimate. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) very rightly pointed out that the reason for this Supplementary Estimate is the increase in the prison population. The purpose of this Estimate is to meet that increased expenditure on Scottish prisoners, an increase of £19,550. The average daily number of prisoners in Scottish prisons in the financial years 1942 and 1945 was just under 1,600. This year we budgeted on that basis. The average for the current year is likely to be approximately 2,000. For the quarter ended 30th September, 1945, the actual figure was 1,937 and for the December quarter 2,027.
I can assure the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) that we fully appreciate the difficulties that have been created through the shortage of staff. I can also assure him that we have already increased the staff as the result of recruitment, and with the return of men from the Forces the situation should soon be a lot easier than it is at the present time. We very much appreciate the work that has been done by these prison officers with the extra strain that has been placed upon them. They have risen to the occasion in a remarkable way. The question has been raised of the freezing order. In other words, you could not keep the men there if the freezing order were not there. The freezing order raises a big general question which could hardly be discussed on this particular Vote. Again, I can assure the hon. Member for Rugby that prison officers will not be kept against their will longer than is necessary. I have also been asked: Are we taking every step for the further recruitment of police officers? I can assure the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok—I understand he has gone away to some other engagement—that we are taking every step possible for the purpose of recruiting more and more men to the police force, and we shall continue to do that until we have got an adequate police force to deal with the problems that lie ahead of us.
So far as the Supplementary Estimate which is before the Committee is concerned, the first effect of this increase of prison population has been additional expenditure under Subhead C on prison staffs. Overtime cost £4,000 in 1944; we allowed £5,500 this year. The actual figures will probably be £4,000 higher. Additional staff, estimated to cost £2,600, have had to be engaged. The main increase so far as this Estimate is concerned is under Subhead D, under which provision is made for victualling stores and equipment. That increase amounts to £20,000 It is due partly to the rise in prison population, partly to the higher prices of certain foodstuffs and materials for the manufacture of clothing, etc., partly to the purchase of sewing machines and material for large additional orders which were not anticipated, for the products of prison industries. It is the products of these prison industries which we sell to the private customers. I think that answers the point raised by the hon. Member for South Edinburgh (Sir W. Darling). Then there is an increase under Subhead F of travelling, removal and escort, of £2,000. I may point out to hon. Members the overcrowding of Barlinnie and Edinburgh Prisons is now reduced to a certain extent by the return to their ordinary use of two halls at Barlinnie Prison which were ultilised during the war as military detention barracks, which has made it necessary for us to transfer a good many prisoners to other prisons.
With regard to the question of the employment of psychiatrists, you can rest assured we are always giving attention to these particular problems. I cannot at the moment say whether we have engaged any additional staff, but I am prepared to look into this particular question because, just as the hon. Members who have raised the question, I have always been interested in this. In many cases it may be that medical treatment is required, and special treatment rather than prison. There again, this is a general question which really does not come under the Supplementary Estimate which I am asking the Committee to give me at the moment.
I trust with those explanations the Committee will now give me the Vote necessary, brought about by the, shall I say, crime wave which is going through Scotland, as elsewhere, at the present time. Something similar happened at the end of the last war. I am not sure it is any worse this time than at the end of the last war, but the crime wave is there. I sincerely trust we are going to get the general assistance and help of the general public of Scotland in dealing with this particular problem. It requires the assistance of everyone to be able to deal with this crime wave in the effective way I desire to deal with it in the interests of-seeing that peace-loving people may have the chance to carry on their lives in the ordinary way, without these criminals who in so many instances are trying to upset the peace of Scotland at the present time. That crime wave has, in the main, necessitated this Supplementary Estimate and I trust the House will now give me the Vote.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £19,550, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for salaries and expenses in connection with the administration of Scottish prisons, including the maintenance of criminal lunatics, defectives, and inmates of the State Inebriate Reformatory, and the preparation of judicial statistics."
Class IV
Public Education (Scotland)
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £200,385, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of pay- ment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for public education in Scotland, including certain grants in aid of the Education (Scotland) Fund, and for the Royal Scottish Museum, Edinburgh, including a grant in aid."
Class IX
Exchequer Contributions to Local Revenues, Scotland
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,145,833, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the General Exchequer Contribution and certain other grants to local authorities in Scotland."
Class III
Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £5,500, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge that will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the expenses of the maintenance of criminal lunatics in the Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum."
Police (England and Wales)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,270,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the salaries of the Commissioner and Assistant Commissioners of the Metropolitan Police, and of the Receiver for the Metropolitan Police District; the contribution towards the expenses of the Metropolitan Police; the salaries and expenses of the Inspectors of Constabulary; the cost of special services, and other grants in respect of Police expenditure, including a grant in aid of the Police Federation, and a contribution towards the expenses of the International Criminal Police Commission."
The Committee will have noted that part of the money for which we are asked under this Estimate is a grant in aid of the Police Federation. I wish to oppose the idea that this Committee should vote any money whatever as a grant in aid of the Police Federation. I wish to argue that that Federation ought long since to have been wound up, that it ought not to be the recipient of moneys from public sources, and that long ago we should have allowed the police of Britain to have their own trade union to handle their own wages and other conditions, in the same way that other public servants are allowed to do. The origin of this Police Federation goes back to the year 1919. At that time, there was a strike in the police of Britain, or part of the police, and the Government of that day became alarmed. They passed an Act of Parliament through a House which contained vast numbers of "hard-faced men who had done well out of the war"—
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but there is nothing in this Estimate dealing with that point. He must confine his remarks to the exact purposes for which the money is to be voted.
With very great respect, if you will be kind enough to look at page 11 of the Supplementary Estimate, you will see that in the antepenultimate line of the first paragraph there are the words, "including a grant in aid of the Police Federation."
Yes, but if the hon. Member will also look, he will see that what we are dealing with are the details of the expenditure, and that is the only point which we can debate
The expenditure is not police expenditure; it is, I submit, a grant to the police in order that expenditure may be met, and if I cannot discuss what is the expenditure that can be met when it is mentioned in the very title of the Estimate under discussion, really I do not know when any Member of Parliament will ever be in Order.
Such a point is for the main Estimates. This is a Supplementary Estimate, and we may therefore only deal with the purposes for which the Supplementary Estimate is required.
This particular Estimate gives no details as to how the supplementary moneys are allocated, but at the top it says that the moneys are to be allocated for the very purposes there enumerated, about one of which the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Brown) was speaking.
On page 11, at the bottom of paragraph 3, the hon. Member will find what he is asking for—the purpose for which this money is being requested.
I hate to come into conflict with the Chair, but unless we can discuss the very subjects which are mentioned in the heading of the Estimates presented to us, what can we discuss? There it is, in plain black and white—"Supplementary Estimate of the amount required for the purposes of so and so," and one of them is, in fact a grant to the Police Federation.
This is a supplementary to the main Estimate and therefore all that we may discuss is what is set out in paragraph 3.
We are entitled to discuss any purpose in respect of which we are asked to vote this Supplementary Estimate, and one of the purposes specified in the heading is a grant in aid of the Police Federation.
The hon. Member does not seem to understand the difference between the heading and the details. We cannot discuss anything but the purpose for which the Supplementary Estimate has been asked.
In those circumstances I beg to make one request to the Committee, and that is that in future the heading to an Estimate should bear at least some distant relationship to the subject which it covers. I make that request first of all, and I will now transfer the remarks I had intended to make to the bottom of page 11, where there is a reference to the change of status of the Police War Reserve. There, I trust, I shall be in Order.
The hon. Member will be quite in Order provided he sticks to that.
What is that change in the status of the Police War Reserve? It is that the rates of pay of the Police War Reserve have been assimilated, more or less in detail, to the rates of pay of the regular police. I affirm that those rates of pay, both that which has been assimilated and that to which it has been assimilated, are inadequate at the present time in Great Britain, that there is widespread discontent in the police forces of this country, and that it ought to be an early concern of the Government to put right those righteous discontents without delay. I doubt very much whether it will be possible to put right those discontents unless we get rid of the Police Federation and allow the police to have a union to represent their case to the Home Office in the ordinary way. Why are they not allowed that union? Because, it is said, the Police War Reserve—to say nothing of the regular police—must never be allowed to go on strike. There are all sorts of people in England who must not go on strike; civil servants, prison officers and the rest, but they are not denied the right to have a proper union on that account.
They are not denied the freedom to have a union with representatives to speak for them, with opportunities for arbitration and so forth, and I have never understood the argument that the Police War Reserve—and the same arguments really apply to the regular police forces, although I must not mention them—because they are a disciplined service, cannot have a union to represent them. I do not see how we can ever get contentment in the police service until we have free agreements, freely negotiated between a free Government and a free union, with the right of appeal to independent arbitration where the parties cannot reach an agreed conclusion. We have agreed to that for civil servants, for teachers, in the shape of the Burnham Committee, we have agreed to it for prison officers, why cannot we agree to it for officers of the Police War Reserve, and at the same time cover the regular police as well?
I headed a deputation of Members to the last Home Secretary but one, and he met Members of all parties. It was a very friendly deputation, nobody ever raised any question of order the whole time we were there, and he said that while it was difficult for him to do anything then because of the reactions upon other temporary wartime services like the N.F.S., he would leave the door open for the matter to be dealt with at the end of the war.
8.15 p.m.
I have allowed the hon. Member a great deal of latitude. It seems to me that he is now making a speech which he hopes to make in a few weeks' time in another Debate. He is dealing with too wide a subject and must confine his remarks to the specific points for which the Vote is needed.
In that case I will immediately contract my remarks from the very wide field which they have covered and confine them strictly to the officers of the Police War Reserve. I beg that in return for the money that we are being asked to vote we should receive from the Under-Secretary for Home Affairs, for whom I have nothing but goodwill as he knows, the assurance that the Government will give to the Police War Reserve at the very earliest possible moment those ordinary human trade union facilities for which I ask and that, incidentally, it should cover the regular police as well.
I have no desire to follow the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) in his somewhat tortuous avoidance of the Ruling that you, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, gave. I had hoped to address a few remarks to the Committee on the question of the pay of the police force by virtue of the fact, which is an exceedingly important fact which will be received by many people with the greatest disappointment, that this Supplementary Estimate makes no reference whatever to the need for an increased Estimate to provide for additional pay for the police force. It appeared to me, having regard to the headings, that that would be in order. Though I only desire to speak briefly, I do ask the Under Secretary to deal with this exceedingly important matter in replying to this Debate. The members of the police force have carried on throughout this war, realising that to some extent they may have been in a happier position than the Armed Forces, but they have done so at rates of pay which have shown the smallest possible increase, their wages now being within a shilling or two of £4 per week. If we are to require from the Force the high standard of honesty, industry, knowledge, legal learning and general probity which we have had in the past, this is a matter which ought to be considered at once.
I do not always agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby, but I agree with him in saying, from my own knowledge, that there is the most widespread dissatisfaction with present conditions throughout the Force, and I had hoped that these Estimates would make some provision for dealing with that dissatisfaction.
I have only two questions to ask on subhead F. Could the hon. Gentleman, in replying, indicate what proportion of the grant to the Metropolitan Police Fund in respect of the cost of police is allocated to the Police Federation and what amount is the contribution towards the expenses of the International Criminal Police Commission? Secondly, I do not know if the word is correctly printed in the line next to the last, but I am unaware what a "grand-aided" basis is. I take is that it should be "grant-aided" basis. If it is really as printed, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will indicate what it means?
Two hon. Members spoke about the remuneration of the police force. If I attempt to follow them I should be out of Order, because this estimate deals with one matter and one matter alone, and it is not to be confused with the general police estimates which cover that matter—
The point we are making is it does not deal with those matters, and it should.
That may well be, but this is not the occasion on which that can be dealt with. The purpose of this Supplementary Estimate is due to the fact that at the outbreak of the war the full cost of the police auxiliary service was chargeable to the Exchequer and not to the local police funds; but when the war came to an end, in June last year, notice was given to the local authorities that that could no longer be the prevailing practice, and the prewar rule must apply. By that I mean that one half of the police service must be provided by the local authorities, and one half provided out of the Exchequer; and it is by reason of the application of that decision that at the end of June, 1945, the old pre-war practice came into operation. That is to say, that the £1,270,000 is now required because the whole practice came to an end by which the Chancellor of the Exchequer met the whole of the auxiliary police services; now he will meet only one half of the police auxiliary services. As a result, of course, it is necessary to budget from 1st July last year to 31st March to meet this expenditure, which reverts back merely to pre-war provisions.
If the Under-Secretary is not able to meet the case we tried to present to him tonight because of its being out of Order, and the fact that his answer would also be out of Order, will he an another occasion, when his reply would be in Order, consider the case which would then be in Order?
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,270,000 be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1946, for the salaries of the Commissioner and Assistant Commissioners of the Metropolitan Police, and of the Receiver for the Metropolitan Police District; the contribution towards the expenses of the Metropolitan Police; the salaries and expenses of the Inspectors of Constabulary; the cost of special services, and other grants in respect of Police expenditure, including a grant in aid of the Police Federation, and a contribution towards the expenses of the International Criminal Police Commission."
SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE, &c, NORTHERN IRELAND
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £400, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1946, for such of the salaries and expenses of the Supreme Court of Judicature and Court of Criminal Appeal of Northern Ireland, and of the Land Registry of Northern Ireland, as are not charged on the Consolidated Fund, and other expenses, including certain expenses in connection with land purchase in Northern Ireland, and a grant in aid; and the salaries and expenses of the Pensions Appeal Tribunal in Northern. Ireland."
Class VI
State Management Districts
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the salaries and expenses of the State Management Districts, including the salaries of the central office, and the cost of provision and management of licensed premises."
Class VII
Ministry of Works
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Works."
I want to raise one point in connection with the item under salaries. It states that
"Additional provision is required for the payment of salaries of additional staff, and of fees of outside consultants, employed for Housing Services … and Research Services."
The point I want to raise with the Minister is this: What is being done to ensure that the research work carried out in connection with housing covers Scottish needs? The temporary housing programme for Scotland was held up for several weeks owing to the fact that the original research works and plans were designed essentially for England. That meant a considerable delay in Scotland. There has also been considerable criticism of several of the cement houses designed as temporary houses, inasmuch as when they came up against the climatic conditions in Scotland they showed weaknesses that had not revealed themselves before. I understand the Department is building a number of houses purely for experimental purposes just outside London I should like to ask whether Scottish needs are being met in this particular district, or whether the Minister intends to build similar experimental houses in Scotland, so that we shall avoid the mistakes made in the past.
My hon. Friend is quite right in saying this particular Estimate covers salaries for both temporary and also permanent experimental houses. I can assure him that in the research now being done, particularly on permanent houses, the needs of every part of the country are being kept fully in mind. He did mention particularly the temporary houses which, as he said quite rightly, had not been too satisfactory at first in Scotland.
Is it not a fact that these houses were rejected by Scottish local authorities because they had to be altered in design?
In answering that, I think it is important to distinguish between certain imported houses, where it was necessary to make considerable alterations for Scottish needs, and temporary houses which were built under the programme initiated by the late Government. The temporary houses which were allocated to Scotland were principally made by one firm, and owing to difficulties in production, owing to the use of unsuitable moulds, it was certainly true that these houses were not only unsatisfactory but were also very slow off the production line. I can assure my hon. Friend that that problem is now overcome. Moreover, in new houses being developed for Scotland, the designs are being very carefully investigated, having regard to Scottish needs and climatic conditions, and other things I know the hon. Member has in mind.
Question put, and agreed to.
Class VI
Ministry of Civil Aviation
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £5.500,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Civil Aviation."
8.30 p.m.
I understand £4,195,000 is for payment to the Ministry of Aircraft Production in respect of research, development and production. The Committee is now being asked to make an extra provision to meet the cost of development and production, whilst in Scotland we find that the aircraft industry is disappearing altogether. I want to know what provision is being made by the Ministry of Aircraft Production, or the Ministry of Civil Aviation, or whoever is concerned to encourage the growth of the aircraft industry in Scotland, so that we get our fair share of these orders and hope to build in Scotland a fairly balanced economy.
The question which has been put to me is one which it would be improper for me to answer on any occasion and least of all this evening. It would be in Order for me to point out that more than the whole of the Supplementary Estimate, for which I am asking approval tonight, is accounted for by this single item, the production and development of civil aircraft and equipment. I think, if I judge aright, that the Committee will not take it amiss if I have to come to the House to ask approval for this sum, provided only that the money is well spent. I believe that the Committee like to see this forward move in civil aviation and will readily grant us the sum for which we ask.
May I ask if the Minister has decided to give no answer to the question as to whether Scotland is, under this allocation, to have nothing for research, development and production? Surely, it is permissible for the Minister to give that edict.
That, I understand, is a matter which should be raised on the Ministry of Aircraft Production Vote.
Question put, and agreed to.
Class IX
Exchequer Contributions to Local Revenues, England and Wales
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £9,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for the General Exchequer Contribution and certain other grants to local authorities in England and Wales."
Class III
Supreme Court of Judicature, Etc
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for such of the salaries and expenses of the Supreme Court of Judicature and Court of Criminal Appeal as are not charged on the Consolidated Fund, and a grant in aid; and the salaries and expenses of Pensions Appeal Tribunals."
May I submit one or two points, for the consideration of my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General, who, I take it, is dealing with this particular item? I hope that this Estimate is appearing for the last time in its present form, because, as my hon. and learned Friend knows, many Members of this House, and a large number of people outside this House, are hoping that in the very near future a far wider scheme of legal aid for the general population will be available. A short time ago, my hon. and learned Friend indicated that the Government had this in mind. Perhaps he will reply to the point which I am trying to make and find it possible to give some indication whether, in the not too distant future, a more comprehensive method of dealing with legal aid than at present exists will be forthcoming.
That is dealing with a point which is not permissible on this Vote.
It is not clear from the actual wording of the Estimate whether the additional grant to the Law Society in consequence of the modification of the Poor Persons Rules and their application to the members of the Armed Forces relates solely to the modifications of the Rules which were introduced in 1942, as a result of which the scheme of legal aid for the Armed Forces was put into effect. Only a little while ago a further modification of the Poor Persons Rules was required for the purposes of extending eligibility under the Poor Persons Rules not merely to members of the Armed Forces but to those members of the Armed Forces who had applied for legal aid and who had ceased to be members of the Armed Forces by virtue of release or discharge. It is not clear from this Estimate whether the extra money now being asked for relates solely to those who are now in the Armed Forces or to those additional persons who have now been made eligible under the Poor Persons Rules by reason of the latest Amendment of the Rules which was only promulgated a little while ago. Perhaps my hon. and learned Friend will be able to clear up that point.
May I ask the learned Solicitor-General whether he can give an indication of the proportion of the total sum spent on poor persons procedure in respect of divorce cases?
May I ask the learned Solicitor-General whether he can give some indication as to the work done by the Pensions Appeal Tribunals?
I am sorry that the hon. Member is going on ground on which he cannot travel. This has nothing to do with the Pensions Tribunals.
This Vote deals with salaries and expenses of Pensions Appeal Tribunals.
If the hon. Member will look at Class III on page 12 he will find the points that can be dealt with in Committee.
In view of the fact that the Vote includes the heading "Salaries and expenses of Pensions Appeal Tribunals," am I not entitled to ask—
I will not say that the hon. Member is going against my Ruling, but as he seems to doubt its validity may I read from Erskine May:
"Debate on supplementary and excess grants is restricted to the particulars contained in the estimates on which those grants are sought, and to the application of the items which compose those grants; and the debate cannot touch the policy or the expenditure sanctioned, on other heads, by the estimate on which the original grant was obtained, except so far as such policy or expenditure is brought before the committee by the items contained in the supplementary or excess estimates."
I am much obliged, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, but may I ask your Ruling on this other point? On what occasion will this House have an opportunity to discuss Pensions Appeal Tribunals?
At the time when all the main headings are involved, and that is on the main Estimate.
This additional grant is in respect of certain of the Services which were greater and on a scale which was not anticipated when the original Vote was proposed. The work that had to be done was of a very wide character and for that reason an additional grant is asked for.
There is one question I should like to put to the Solicitor-General. There is a note at the foot of page 12 at which an asterisk is placed and reads:
"Expenditure out of this Grant in Aid will not be accounted for in detail to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Any balance of the sum issued which may remain unexpended at 31st March, 1946, will not be liable to surrender to the Exchequer."
This sum relates to the money paid to the Law Society in connection with poor persons. I should like the Solicitor-General to contrast that note with the note which appears in an earlier Class—Class I, 12, which is Government hospitality, and the note in this case states:
"Expenditure out of this Grant in Aid will be accounted for in detail to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Any balance of the sum issued which may remain unexpended at 31st March, 1946, wilt not be liable to surrender to the Exchequer."
I would be grateful if the hon. and learned Gentleman would indicate why the sums remaining in the Government Hospitality Fund are to be accounted for in detail while sums paid over to the Law Society are not accounted for in detail.
I have not the answer now, but I will endeavour to obtain it for the hon. Member and let him have it.
Perhaps I should apologise for not having mentioned this matter earlier, but I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1946, for such of the salaries and expenses of the Supreme Court of Judicature and Court of Criminal Appeal as are not charged on the Consolidated Fund, and a grant in aid; and the salaries and expenses of Pensions Appeal Tribunals."
County Courts
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1946, for the salaries and expenses in connection with the County Courts, the Liabilities Adjustment Offices and the War Damage (Valuation Appeals) Tribunal."
Class V
Assistance Board
Resolved:
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £200,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1946, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Assistance Board and of certain Appeal Tribunals; sums payable to applicants for assistance, etc.; expenses of training, work centres, etc.; and a grant in aid."
Resolutions to be reported Tomorrow; Committee to sit again Tomorrow.
Members' Expenses
discharged from the Select Committee on Members' Expenses; Major Ramsay added.—[ Mr. Mathers .]
Civil Aviation (Fog Dispersal)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Mathers. ]
8.45 p.m.
On 29th January I put a Question to the Prime Minister on the subject of the Petroleum Warfare Department and asked when it was to cease to exist. In a supplementary to that Question I asked the Prime Minister whether that experiment work on fog dispersal was finished, to which the Prime Minister replied: From that day the Department got to work, and I understand that money was, for the time being, not unnaturally really no object. The main need was to get our aircraft back on foggy nights or foggy days after they had been out over Germany, and when large numbers of aircraft had to come back it was of vital necessity that we should get rid of England and Scotland's greatest drawback with regard to flying—fogs that come, down quickly and especially sea fogs, which I do not think have yet in any way been seriously mastered. We know that it cost an appalling amount of money because we equally know that it had to be done very quickly, and we could not allow any aerodrome to be out of action for any great length of time. I will not go into the details of how it was dealt with and how the scheme went on, but we did get an answer, It was only in 1943, less than three years ago, that Air Vice-Marshal Bennett, who was rightly praised by the Parliamentary Secretary during the Debate on civil aviation the other day, was first enabled by the new fog methods which we popularly call today F.I.D.O. to land on a test flight.
I understand that this Air Vice-Marshal and others are still interested, in the F.I.D.O. question, and do not consider that we have yet got the complete answer. Heathrow has had a great deal of money expended upon fog dispersal plant—I believe over £200,000 already—and to get one runway going would require only another £25,000. To make Heathrow the safest aerodrome in the world would cost something like £600,000, but to get a part of it ready would not require anything like that sum. To scrap it—as, I am told, has been decided—will mean the waste of another £150,000. These are alarming figures, when we are told that fog dispersal is still being studied by somebody. I want to know by whom, because the Petroleum Warfare Department gathered together all the chief experts who could deal with this matter. They were in charge of it, developed it and brought it to the position it was until three days ago, when what was left of that Department was handed over to the Ministry of Supply.
I believe I am right in saying that these civilian experts are being disbanded and dispersed at a time when they are claiming that within six or nine months they could develop much further the fog dispersal experiments which they have been working on, so as to make the system almost completely satisfactory. As there are still two months to go to the end of the financial year, in which they could carry one, why cannot they be allowed to do so? Perhaps I shall be told that experiments are to be carried out at Farn-borough or elsewhere, possibly through the Air Ministry, although I have been told by the Prime Minister that it was to be the Ministry of Supply, but why cannot the people who were developing these experiments, and who nearly reached complete success, be allowed to continue that work?
I know the answer about the great cost, and that Radar will be ready in a year or two as the final answer to what we all most want. But is cost to be of paramount importance when we are thinking of people's lives? Is it not much better, if we are to get passengers to come to this country, to see that they should have the most complete confidence? Do we not know what fogs are like in this country, and how quickly they come down? Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary can tell me the number of hours of fog in this country in a year, because I know that has been calculated. If we know that we know how much petrol we would have to use for fog dispersal. I believe that it has been worked out that the cost of F.I.D.O. would eventually be an extra £2 10s. to £3 per passenger. If that is so that is not a very large figure, bearing in mind that if people are landed in Scotland, and in far away parts of England, they have to be conveyed by train to London, and perhaps be put up at hotels, with a certain amount of discomfort, especially when they are in great haste. What with improvements in insurance rates and the cost of travel you would find that in the long run it would be cheaper to go on with Heathrow It might be said that F.I.D.O. is not necessary because Radar is coming. The United States cannot be accused of not being go-ahead in these experiments. F.I.D.O. is our idea, not a United States' idea, yet the United States are not scrapping it. They have given grants from the Army and the Navy to the Western University, with which to carry on experiments, because they are certain that the limit has not yet been reached. What we are doing now is almost exactly the same as we did in 1918. During the 1914–18 war we made great worth while inventions, including that of the tank, yet at the end of that war we suddenly financially panicked, and decided to scrap all our experiments, involving a hundred and one different things. The result was that other countries took them up, so that when the last war started we found that they, including our enemies, were far ahead of us. Today, the United States are going on with F.I.D.O., and calculate that by the use of diesel oil, which, I know, cannot be used at Heathrow, the cost will be reduced. Radar we are told, will be ready in one or two years for use by our own civil aviation planes. Yet the United States say that their calculation is five years and they are already ahead of us in experimental work.
What will happen to us in the next two years? I believe I am right in saying that the Anson which was lost only a few days ago had Radar on it, and yet it was lost. I suggest that a proper fog installation at places like Heathrow would give the pilots great confidence. The cost would not be excessive, and during the next year or two, while Radar is not ready, such an installation would give confidence to passengers coming from other countries. I have been somewhat frightened by what I have read in the newspapers and heard over the wireless about the figures. Nobody seems to be going sufficiently seriously into the figures. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary how far the Petroleum Warfare Department, which was dealing with the matter, has been consulted; whether it is not true that until about three weeks ago it had not been consulted as to what the cost would be, and whether it is not equally true that since then it has been very little consulted—and perhaps not consulted at all—in regard to the final decision on whether or not we would be able to afford to go on with the fog installation at Heathrow.
In the Debate on civil aviation recently, I got the impression that one of the main arguments used was that when it is a question of starting up civil aviation as a new industry in the country, one must avoid small companies which cannot afford to make adequate plans, and so forth. What is needed is big organisations which will make sure of getting the very best plans. Yet the first thing that we hear, within a few days of that Debate, is the Parliamentary Secretary saying that we are not to get this experiment, which very many people in the Air Force, who know what they are talking about, consider necessary, and the main reason that is given is the cost. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to clear up completely the question whether anybody is carrying on with the fog dispersal experiments at the present time, whether those experiments are to be continued, or whether, because one Ministry thinks another Ministry is going to carry on the experiments, we shall finally find that nobody is doing so? I should like to know why it is considered that the cost of the experiments should be the final determining factor—if that is so—when really safety and the confidence of the pilots and passengers should be the first consideration. Will the Parliamentary Secretary reconsider his decisions on that point, in view of the fact that the United States are going ahead with the same experiments, and are not satisfied that Radar is anything like ready, or has not yet proved that it can be the complete answer? Is the Parliamentary Secretary satisfied that the cost of F.I.D.O. cannot be brought down very considerably? We shall not be able to use Radar for quite a time, and in the meantime, what is to be done in the matter of bringing aircraft down in fog? Finally, can the Parliamentary Secretary tell us whether Air Vice-Marshal Bennett has been consulted during the last few weeks, and if so, what is his opinion?
9.2 p.m.
I welcome this Debate, as indeed I welcome anything that helps aircraft to operate with safety in this country. During the war F.I.D.O. played a very great part in bringing back to the East coast both American and British bombers, and enabled air crews to land safely in bad weather when otherwise the operation either could not have taken place or they would have had to bale out. It was, however, a very expensive installation to operate even for a short time. I disagree slightly in that respect with my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton (Mr. Teeling), because I feel that the matter must be considered commercially. We are short of money in this country, and we have to compete with America. I be- lieve that F.I.D.O. should play its part, but that it should be a stop-gap until the development of Radar is complete.
I do not think I shall be giving away a secret when I say that some six months ago I flew in an R.A.F. aeroplane fitted with a Radar device coupled up to an automatic pilot, and this equipment enabled the aircraft to "home" some 60 or 80 miles and come down within 10ft. of the runway. This device has been worked out in conjunction with our American friends, but, nevertheless, we are just a pace ahead of the Americans in its development. Obviously it is not ready yet to go into production on a large scale, but I believe that in a matter of perhaps a year or two we shall have aircraft arriving at Heathrow in all weather and being brought down within a few feet of the runway. Until then, I earnestly ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider using F.I.D.O. at Heathrow. At this stage we cannot afford, in view of our backwardness in civil aviation, to take any chance in operating our aircraft into the London airport. It will be a major disaster of the greatest magnitude if, through neglect or the saving of pounds, there is a crash because we may not have taken all the precautions we might have taken. I think this method should be used, even at a cost, for what I think would be a period of one or two years.
9.4 p.m.
I wish to support my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton (Mr. Teeling) in raising this matter. I know there are very many people who are puzzled, and even alarmed, by the Minister's decision to stop work on the installation of F.I.D.O. at Heathrow. It may be that the Parliamentary Secretary has a reasonable explanation to offer, and if he has, I feel sure he will welcome this opportunity to make it, because as far as I know no reason has yet been published for the Minister's decision. I think he will admit that, on the face of it, this decision would appear to be foolish, to say the least, although there may be important factors of which I am not aware. Briefly the facts, as I know them, are these. First of all, work on the installation at Heathrow is as much as five-sevenths complete. Secondly—and I am afraid here my figures differ from those given by the hon. Member for Brighton—I have been told that the amount of money already spent on the installation is £400,000 and that about another £200,000 is needed to finish it completely, that is, allowing for the very latest type of installation. In relation to the total cost of this vast central airport this is not excessive. But on the basis of the present intention, the £400,000 will be completely wasted. Thirdly, F.I.D.O. is the only method of fog dispersal known to us at the present time.
I am very well aware that there are great possibilities of overcoming fog by the use of Radar, and this has already been touched upon by the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey), but I agree with him that it cannot possibly provide a rival alternative to F.I.D.O. for several years yet. Meanwhile, the financial losses from cancelled flights are bound to be heavy, not to mention the serious risk of loss of life and aircraft in fog conditions. Those, as I see them, are the main facts, and the question can very fairly be asked from those facts, "Why, then, has the work been stopped on the installation at Heathrow?" It can hardly be on the grounds of economy, since the work is already so nearly completed and since so much money has already been spent on it. The operating costs, when compared with the financial loss due to cancelled flights and the increased insurance premiums, are not excessive. Manpower cannot be a serious consideration because the standard installation requires only 21 men to work it, and even that number could be reduced perhaps in the latest type of installation, which is automatically controlled from a panel in the control tower. Its usefulness cannot be doubted because it has already been proved with spectacular success in the Royal Air Force. Since November, 1943, when it was first used operationally to land four Halifaxes after a flight from the Ruhr, in visibility of only 100 yards, some 2,500 or more Allied aircraft have been landed safely with their crews of some 10,000 airmen, many of them in conditions of the densest fog. On one day alone no less than 91 United States aircraft were landed on one installation.
I have given these facts in an effort to show that if F.I.D.O. is considered obsolete, and if it is to be abandoned, there must be a very good alternative indeed. Perhaps there is. If so, I think the House should be fully informed as to how it compares with F.I.D.O. in cost and efficiency, and, in my view, most important of all, how soon it will be available. Surely, there can be no question of secrecy. On the contrary, I think the public should be fully informed of any safety device of this kind because on their confidence in the safety of flying will depend the whole future of British aviation.
9.10 p.m.
I am very glad that this subject has been raised, and particularly that it was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton (Mr. Teeling). I speak from quite a different angle. I am one of the fortunate people who do not have to work when in the air. I merely lie back and enjoy myself while the skilled operator either gets me there or does not. Clearly, I am deeply concerned when I hear that the skilled pilot will not be able to do that job as well as he might otherwise, if F.I.D.O. had been still alive. This tragic question is a repetition in a modern form of the old nursery rhyme, "Who killed Cock Robin?" Now it is "Who killed F.I.D.O.?" The birds of the air are crying and sobbing There does not seem to be much doubt about the answer.
I happen to be a Scotsman, representing an English constituency on the shores of the Bristol Channel, and we are very interested in civil aviation. I can imagine no more deplorable condition of things than that the development of civil aviation in that portion of our country should be barred because this weapon against fog, dear old Fido, has been removed from us. It may well be that other inventions will take its place and that those other methods will be equally effective by the use of the oldest method in the world, some form of combustion. Everyone agrees that such alternative methods may not be ready for some time. Everybody who knows anything about the matter admits that for safety it is always better to have means of dispersal or guidance concentrated on the ground. That is the complement in air navigation to navigation at sea, where it has always been found that aids to navigation should be shore based.
As far as we know, the present practice of Fido is the only one which fulfils the present need. We may hear very good reasons from the Parliamentary Secretary as to why poor Fido was killed, but those reasons must be overwhelming if Fido is to be killed at this stage. It may be that later on Fido may have to be sacrificed because another and more beautiful creature has come along which is at the same time more practical.
rose —
No, I am not going to give way now. I am speaking as a passenger and a potential passenger. I am not the chap who knows how to fly. I am merely part of the cargo, but there are millions of people who are just the same as I am and who have to be satisfied. It is those millions of potential passengers that the Parliamentary Secretary has to satisfy.
9.14 p.m.
I do not pretend to be an authority on this subject at all, but I remember that in the last Parliament the right hon. and gallant Member for Pembroke (Major Lloyd George) answered the question put by an hon. Member who asked whether it would not be possible—
It being a quarter past Nine o'Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put .
Motion made; and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Captain Blenkinsop. ]
I asked: Would it not be possible for a constituent whose name and address had been given to the Minister, to be allowed one gallon of petrol a year for use on his lawn mower? I remember the right hon. Gentleman said that in view of the petrol situation existing at that time, it was quite impossible. I remember asking a supplementary question along these lines: of Mr. Speaker, to delete from HANSARD that reference to a matter which might have given information to the enemy. I never quite understood why that should have been so, because, after all, if our bombers were able to come back and land with the use of F.I.D.O., it struck me that it would not be anything but gratifying to us, and soul-destroying to the enemy.
We have heard a good deal this evening as to cost; I do not pretend to be an expert on this, but I should like to hear from my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation, whether it is not true, as a matter of petrol consumption on one of these runways alone, which, I understand, has to be set in operation about half an hour before the first aircraft come in, that the hourly consumption of petrol is between 60,000 and 80,000 gallons. I am not saying that that is not off-set by the safety in lives which might be achieved by the continuation, of that landing device, but I think that when hon. Gentlemen opposite talk about the cost of £400,000, which has so far been spent at Heathrow in installation of the apparatus, the Parliamentary Secretary should give us the figure, in the matter of petrol consumption per hour at each of these runways during the fog conditions. The hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey) said the other day, perhaps a year ago, that it was possible for aircraft to be brought in by some other landing device. I think he agreed that that is not quite ready for complete development and use at the moment, but nevertheless, the time is not very far off.
The financial situation between this country and the United States, so far as the purpose of petroleum is concerned, a matter of dollars, etc., which the House discussed before Christmas, is a matter of some seriousness. I hope that in the Minister's reply he will be able to give us some interesting information as to the consumption of petrol per hour, during a 10 or 12 hour night, or under foggy conditions, how much petrol is consumed during the period in question.
I would like to make one point quite clear. The hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) spoke about terms of hourly consumption and even 10 or 12 hourly consumption. The fog installation can clear a sufficient tube of air to land aircraft in something like three to eight minutes. Provided, therefore, you have a good control, there is no need to keep it on for more than a few minutes at a time; to talk in terms of hourly consumption is apt to give the wrong impression.
I am much obliged to the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Ward), but I was informed very recently by people who I think should know something about it, that before the apparatus was sufficiently working in order to clear a runway it had to be on for half an hour. I do not pretend to be an expert, and I do not mind if I am wrong, but I am trying to encourage the Parliamentary Secretary to tell the House how much we can afford to buy from the United States of America, and also whether, particularly on returning from a bombing raid, it is not true that, during a long night of operations, the apparatus was operating some eight or ten hours continuously. It may not be necessary at Heathrow, but I imagine that when an airport is really operating and we have trans-continental airliners coming in, from the point of view of the consumption of petrol alone, the Government may have a case. I am seeking to prod the Financial Secretary to give the House and the country more information than we have at present.
9.21 p.m.
There was a complete case for the development and installation of F.I.D.O. during the war, and it abundantly justified the large expenditure of money. Heathrow was originally designed as an R.A.F. aerodrome and it was only because, happily, the Japanese war ended sooner than was expected that it has not been used as an R.A.F. aerodrome. If it had been used for that purpose, then, of course, F.I.D.O. would have been used there. The position which my Noble Friend had to consider when he came into office was different—and incidentally the hon. Gentleman the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing) almost challenged me to complete the famous nursery rhyme, and I readily accept the challenge: The position which he had to consider on taking office was that he had charge, or would shortly have charge, of a purely civil aerodrome, and entirely different considerations came into play. He decided then, on the best evidence available to him, not to proceed with the installation of F.I.D.O. More recently representations have been made to him on the subject and, with his usual courtesy, he has given full consideration to them, but has again decided not to proceed with the installation for reasons which I will give in full to the House. One hon. and gallant Gentleman said I ought to welcome the opportunity of giving those reasons, and I do so because, hitherto, the only opportunity I have had has been by way of Question and answer in the House, and I agree that the public interest justifies a fuller answer than it was then possible to give If the House will follow me, I should like to take it through the chain of arguments which have led us to this conclusion.
In the first place, as has been admitted tonight, the ultimate solution of the problem of landing aircraft in fog does not lie in F.I.D.O., or in anything like F.I.D.O., but in the development of Radar. I thought we heard some very encouraging statements from the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey) with which I entirely agree. In this matter research is proceeding very rapidly, and we are keeping pace with the Americans in this branch of research. I must say, however, that it will be several years, in all probability, before blind landing with the help of Radar is definitely accomplished, but we are well on the way towards that solution and this research is being given a high degree of priority.
I shall assume that I have carried the House in that first stage of the argument: that the ultimate solution of the problem lies in Radar. Now for the intervening period. F.I.D.O. is very expensive. Hon. Gentlemen have mentioned the capital cost of the installation, which is admittedly heavy. I do not propose to say what are the estimates of the capital cost, but I will say that the statement made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Brighton (Mr. Teeling) that it will take another £25,000 to complete the installation—
I did not say "to complete the installation," I said, merely on one runway.
Even so, it is very wide of the mark, and it would have to be multiplied many times, as in my brief experience as a Minister I have found that, it is necessary to add a good deal on to any estimate I receive. I could not accept the estimates of the capital cost that have been given tonight. The capital cost is high and the maintenance costs of the installation are also high. But it is not on the capital cost or the maintenance costs that we have to base this decision. Far more important, as my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) realised, is the actual running costs of the apparatus, and especially the high consumption of petrol. The hon. Member gave a figure which coincides with my own knowledge of the subject. The minimum estimate for fuel consumption which we have received for Heathrow is 70,000 gallons an hour. With petrol at is. 6d. a gallon this works out at £5,250 an hour, and on the estimate that 12 aircraft can be landed in the hour—.which is the most optimistic we have received, and we have received from other qualified sources estimates that only five aircraft could be landed in the hour—it works out at £437 for every aircraft landed. That is not a figure that can be lightly dismissed even in these days when we think in terms of millions of pounds.
My advice coincides with that of the hon. Member for Nuneaton as against that of the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. G. Ward), and I am advised that it is necessary to switch on the apparatus some time before the aircraft lands and to keep it burning. F.I.D.O. is a very expensive installation especially in running costs. An opinion from a very expert source is that it would enable Heathrow to be used on another 10 or 12 days in the whole year. I cannot think that this great expenditure can be justified merely for another 10 or 12 days in the year. I agree entirely with what has been said on the question of safety and regularity and my noble Friend would certainly have decided—with the consent of the Treasury—to proceed with the installation of F.I.D.O. if it were necessary in the interests of safety and regularity; I shall have no difficulty in convincing the House that it is not necessary in the interests of safety and regu- larity during the interval of a few years before we can develop Radar.
Prestwick?
The hon. Member has seen the direction in which my mind is moving. Our policy in this period is to use alternative aerodromes. For all air ports designated in accordance with international usage, we propose to have bad weather alternatives in regions which are sufficiently far away to have a different kind of weather. Prestwick, for example, will not only be an international airport of a high standard on its own, but will be a bad weather alternative for Heathrow. Valley, in Anglesey, will also be a bad weather alternative to Heathrow. It is unlikely that when Heathrow is fog-bound both Valley and Prestwick will also be fog-bound—
I would like to remind the Parliamentary Secretary that there are occasions when all airports in England are fog-bound, including Prestwick.
I would also like to point out to the hon. Gentleman that I myself had the opportunity of landing at Prestwick on five occasions, and on three of those occasions I have been unable to do so due to fog.
I am sorry for the hon. Gentleman when he meets the Scottish Members at the conclusion of this Debate.
In the interests of clarity, it was mentioned that Prestwick aerodrome is free from fog. May I say that Anglesey never has any fog conditions at all?
Both Valley and Prestwick, as it happens, do have remarkable fog-free records.
The Parliamentary Secretary used the number "11." He said Heathrow would be available on 11 occasions if we had F.I.D.O. Did he mean on 11 occasions annually Heathrow at the moment would be fog bound, or did he mean on 11 occasion annually Heathrow and Prestwick are fog bound?
No, I meant that the installation of F.I.D.O. would enable Heathrow to be used on 10 to 12 days in the year when it could not otherwise be used. There are of course varying degrees of fog.
The hon. Gentleman has not the figures about Prest-wick?
No.
I hate interrupting, but I would like the hon. Gentleman to tell us the cost of getting from Prestwick to London, and the number of people who might have to make that journey.
It would cost us a great deal less than to operate F.I.D.O. at Heath-row. An hon. Member has suggested that there are days when every aerodrome in this country is fog bound. I cannot deny that theoretical possibility, but it is one so remote that I think we hardly need legislate for it. The policy of having alternative aerodromes when Heath-row is fog-bound is a practical policy that will enable aircraft to be brought in with safety and with regularity. I want now to mention this fact, that there are alternative aerodromes not so far away from London as Prestwick and Valley which are equipped with F.I.D.O. and where, in case of distress, aircraft could be brought in. Most hon. Members will know them, and I suppose there is no harm in saying that Manston and Blackbushe are both equipped with F.I.D.O. and, in case of distress, aircraft could be brought in at these two aerodromes. It will be seen, therefore, that there is no validity in the argument that it is necessary in the interests of safety to bring in passengers to Heathrow. That is the greater part of my chain of argument, but I wish to add a few more facts that will, I hope, make it more complete.
The lighting at Heathrow will be very much better than it was at any R.A.F. station during the days of black-out in the war. The reactions of passengers must also be considered. The hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing) has spoken of civilian passengers, but civilian passengers have not yet travelled through F.I.D.O., and it may very well be that they might not like to come down through it.
May I assure the Under-Secretary that we do wish to come down.
The hon. Gentleman will come down; it is only a question whether he will come down at Heathrow or at some other aerodrome. It may very well be that the flames of the F.I.D.O. apparatus may at first be a little frightening to civilian passengers. I do not place too much emphasis on it, but it is a fact to be considered. I have been asked about the opinions of pilots. I do not think that it would be fair for me to quote the opinion of Air Vice-Marshal Bennett, because he now stands in a special relation to the Ministry. I shall say, however, that he is among many experts who have been consulted on this matter. Research into fog dispersal will go on at Farnborough, as was indicated in the Prime Minister's answer. We regard it as important that this research should continue. The hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Teeling) said that the United States was continuing its experiments in fog dispersal.
I do not know the details of these experiments, but the hon. Member said the research is being conducted at a university. That would suggest that their experiments, as are our own here, are on the laboratory scale, and there is nothing to choose between them. Experiments are proceeding with a view to cheapening the cost, but, quite frankly, we regard the work on Radar as having the higher priority in this matter. It has been suggested that it is a pity that we made this decision, because it means the dispersal of the Petroleum Warfare Department. I cannot see that it is a very strong argument that we must go on with the installation of Heathrow in order to keep the Petroleum Warfare Department in being, much as we appreciate the work it has done in the past—work that was so essential during the war.
The Petroleum Warfare Department is going on under the Ministry of Supply, but the experts who have been working on it all the time are to be sent back and their work handed over to other experts when they are almost within six months of completing it.
The hon. Gentleman defended the installation of F.I.D.O. at Heathrow on the grounds of experimental research. It would not, of course, be an experiment at Heathrow, but the completed thing, and I doubt if it would add anything to our knowledge. Broadly speaking, pilots are in favour of F.I.D.O., as we must expect. Pilots naturally would like to have every device they possibly can to help them; and I am told that, during the war, many pilots liked to have F.I.D.O. turned on because it made rather better landing lights than they would otherwise have had. We must expect the pilots to come down on the side of F.I.D.O. The ultimate solution, however, lies in the use of Radar, and, in the intervening period, the correct policy is to land passengers in bad weather at alternative aerodromes. I have pointed out that there are aerodromes which are already equipped with F.I.D.O. in the hands of the R.A.F. In view, therefore, of the very high running costs of F.I.D.O., and the by no means light capital cost, I hope the House will acquiesce in my Noble Friend's decision not to proceed with the installation.
Are the two stations equipped with F.I.D.O. ready to operate at any moment?
I believe they are equipped and ready to work at any moment.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Nineteen Minutes to Ten o'Clock.