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Commons Chamber

Volume 418: debated on Thursday 7 February 1946

House of Commons

Thursday, February 7, 1946

The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]

Private Business

Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders Applicable)

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table,—Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Mortlake Crematorium Board) Bill.

Bill to be read a Second time Tomorrow.

NORTHMET POWER BILL (by Order)

Second Reading deferred till Thursday, 21st February.

Oral Answers to Questions

Police

Complaints

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is prepared to amend the Discipline Code made under the Police Regulations so as to give to every member of the police force the same right of making complaints and of access to his superiors as is given in all branches of H.M. forces.

It is I think well, understood in the police service that any police officer who thinks himself wronged is entitled to make complaint to a superior officer and, if he does not obtain satisfaction, to submit his complaint to the Chief Constable through the usual channels. In addition it is open to any police officer to make a complaint to H.M. Inspector of Constabulary when he is inspecting the force. Ample provision is thus made for the redress of grievances and I do not think that any amendment of the Discipline Code is necessary for this purpose.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that "the usual channels" through which an officer complains are through his superior officer, who may be the officer concerned, and does not the Discipline Code preclude a complaint being made to the Watch Committee?

With regard to the first part of the supplementary question, there are the persons immediately superior to the man in rank whom he can approach. With regard to the second part, I should like to have notice.

Pay

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, what is the rate of pay now in force in relation to a newly-enrolled police constable; and whether he is satisfied that this figure is adequate.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the amount of discontent in the police force over the rates of pay and conditions of service; and in, view of the dissatisfaction felt by the police at the results of their representations on these matters, what action he is taking to remove these grievances.

In addition to free quarters or an allowance in lieu and other emoluments, the rate of pay for a constable on appointment is 90s., or 88s. if he is under the age of 23, a week. When police pay was consolidated as from 1st April last it was made clear that the improved rate would not be subject to temporary fluctuations but would be stabilised for a period of three years in the absence of any radical change in general economic conditions. The Police Federation have nevertheless asked for a revision of their pay and the matter will come up for discussion at the forthcoming meeting of the Police Council.

Is the Minister aware that the new rates of pay compare unfavourably with the pre-1931 rates plus cost of living increment?

This was a matter of arrangement and discussion. The Police Federation are considering the matter again, and I do not want to say anything which might prejudice full discussion. I would point out that the arrangement on 1st April last was that the rates were to stand for three years.

Overtime

5.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) whether he is aware of the discontent in the Metropolitan Police Force, and other forces, resulting from the police no longer being able to take time off in lieu of extra hours worked, and being compelled to work overtime for 2s. an hour against an average hourly pay rate of 2s. 7½d.; and whether he will take steps to see that the police are paid proper overtime rates, in accordance with general commercial practice;

(2) on what date the recent amended rates of overtime were introduced into the Metropolitan Police Force; what other forces have adopted the same rates; what was the authority for this step; and if he will give an assurance that overtime being paid at a lower rate than the standard hourly rate will not be extended to any other police forces where it is not already in force, pending negotiations.

I regret that, in the present shortage of police manpower, it is not possible in all cases to give members of the police forces time off in lieu of extra hours worked, but I am confident that Chief Officers of Police are fully alive to the desirability of doing so where possible. Overtime rates are prescribed for all police forces by the Police Regulations; the present rates were fixed in November, 1944. There is no question of fixing differential rates for any individual force, but proposals for a general increase in the present rates will be considered by the Police Council at a meeting to be held next week.

Does the Minister think it right that policemen should be compelled to work overtime at a lower rate of pay than the standard hourly rate?

That question is dealt with in the last part of the answer which I have just given.

Age Limits

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if he will consider temporarily amending the Police Pensions Acts so as to permit the entry of men called up to the services during the past six years, discharged with a very good or exemplary conduct sheet, who, having now reached the age of 30, are ineligible for the constabulary affected by those Acts and allowing such men to count one year's police pension right for every three years of active service.

As regards the age limit of 30 prescribed in the Police Regulations for recruits to the police service, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer I gave to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) on 1st November. So far as concerns the question of counting service in the armed forces as approved service for pension purposes, I could not justify legislation which would place ex-servicemen who joined the police in a more favourable position than those who joined other public services, but shall keep the question under review in consultation with other Ministers concerned.

Whilst recognising it is a rather complicated question, may I ask if it is not a fact that in other parts of the country there has been some modification of the Regulation, and in view of the great shortage in the police force throughout the country, is it not possible to take action so as to release men of suitable character who have served their country and are anxious to join the police force?

I am anxious to do all I can in that direction but a police constable's term of service is very limited. There are difficulties that arise particularly in later recruitments. I have had some correspondence with the hon. Gentleman, and I think it is possible to thrash the matter out better by interview than by Question and answer in the House.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, although in Scotland the age limit is 35 instead of 30 in the case of ex-Service personnel, most of the appointments committees are, in fact, selecting younger men because the new seals of pension favours new entrants to the service, and are against those entering in middle age? Would not the recruitment of older men with good service be facilitated if military service were counted for pension purposes in the police force as is suggested in the Question?

I have no responsibility for what happens with regard to the police in Scotland. I have been in consultation with the Secretary of State for Scotland on these matters, but I do not think that the point raised by the hon. and gallant Gentleman outweighs the considerations I have already advanced.

Motoring Offences

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many hours have been spent by Metropolitan police in giving evidence in court on minor motoring cases during the past three months or other convenient period.

Would the Home Secretary consider instituting a system of verbal and oral warnings for trivial motoring offences instead of employing policemen in giving evidence in court at a time when there is grave shortage, particularly during the period of say the next six months?

I am anxious to avoid using the police to give evidence in court on these matters as much as possible, but the existing state of casualties on the road indicates that it is very necessary that the police should be vigilant in this matter.

Is the Minister aware that by "trivial motoring offences" I mean such offences as parking for too long a period?

Promotion

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is satisfied that promotion prospects in the police force are on a democratic basis and that the bias in favour of a certain class, instituted by the Hendon Police College, has now been entirely dissipated.

Promotion in the police service is decided on merit. It is certainly my view that there should be no bias in favour of a privileged class.

Defence Medal

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether members of the special constabulary who are entitled to the Defence Medal may now wear the ribbon.

Arrangements have been made for the immediate issue of the Defence Medal ribbon to qualified serving members of the police service, including members of the special constabulary, and the ribbon will be issued in these cases without individual applications. Special constables who are no longer serving are not covered by these arrangements, and must wait until particulars of the general scheme are announced.

Raid, New Maiden

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has any statement to make with respect to the police raid on the New Maiden Lawn Tennis Club on the night of 8th December, 1945; whether it is intended to take any legal proceedings as a result; what were the objects of this raid; the number of police taking part; the length of time during which the police were in occupation of the club premises; when it is intended to return documents which were removed; and what was the justification for this interference with the rights and liberties of this club and its members.

As the hon. and gallant Member has already been informed, the raid was made in execution of a search warrant granted by magistrates on information suggesting that offences under the Licensing Act were being committed at this club. No criminal proceedings are being taken in respect of sales of intoxicating liquor, but I understand that the Surrey County Council have under consideration the question whether proceedings should be taken in respect of unlicensed public music and dancing. The 25 police officers who took part were on the club premises for an hour and twelve minutes. All documents and books have been returned to the secre- tary. As regards the last part of the Question, the justification for police action is that it is the duty of the police to enforce the law.

In view of the present shortage of police manpower, does the Home Secretary consider the use of 25 policemen on an enterprise of this sort justified, and, further, will he say whether these books were returned before this Question was put down?

With regard to the first part of the question, I think this particular use of the police was justified. With regard to the second part, I will have the matter specially investigated and will write to the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

Will the Home Secretary undertake to review the employment of the police force on these matters as well as on motoring offences in view of the very grave shortage of police?

The police have a duty to enforce the law. This club is entitled to all the considerations that arise from the fact that no police prosecution is impending, but I could not give a general undertaking that supervision of these places should be neglected by the police.

Prisons

Psychiatric Treatment

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is prepared to make arrangements for psychiatric treatment to be made available at all penal establishments in this country, and, in particular, that a course of psychiatric treatment be available in all suitable cases of sexual offenders.

Arrangements already exist under which any prisoner, man or woman, at any establishment can receive psychiatric treatment if the medical officer considers it desirable. Not all sexual offenders are suitable subjects for psychiatric treatment, but all are specially examined with a view to such treatment if the examination shows they are likely to benefit thereby.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in 99 cases out of 100 the medical officer never makes a recommendation for psychiatric treatment because he does not believe in it; and is he aware that, time after time, men are told that they are being sent for a long period of penal servitude in order that they may be cured, and they endure that without any attempt whatever being made to cure them?

I think that the proportion which the hon. Gentleman suggests is quite contrary to the facts, as I have been able to discover them, nor do I think medical officers allow their personal opinions to influence them to the extent which he has stated. I am exceedingly anxious that where this form of examination would enable reformative treatment to be undertaken it should be undertaken in every one of these penal establishments.

Is the Minister aware that the whole method of prison treatment requires overhauling, and is there any possibility of his doing anything in that respect?

I have no doubt that when I am in a position to deal with the question of the staffing of prisons, it will be desirable to have a further inquiry into the whole problem of the treatment of prisoners.

May I ask the Minister if it is not the case that under the Bill which it is proposed to bring forward this matter is specifically provided for?

It is one of the tragedies that the war brought about that the Criminal Justice Bill, 1939, did not reach the Statute Book.

Youthful Offenders

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been drawn to the sentence of three months' imprisonment passed on a boy of 15 years of age at the Toynbee Hall juvenile court; and if he will take steps to have this boy removed from an ordinary prison.

I have obtained much information as to this boy's previous history and I am giving careful consideration to the question of what further action can most suitably be taken in the best interests of the boy.

Will the Minister take steps of a general character to see that boys under 15 are saved from ordinary prison sentences?

I am exceedingly anxious to do that. The more generous one makes a provision for dealing with juvenile offenders, the more necessary it is occasionally to bring home to a particular offender that the law cannot be eternally trifled with. I regret that the history and circumstances of this boy make him an exceedingly difficult individual to deal with. The fault is not his entirely, and I am seriously trying to find some way of dealing with this lad that will be for his benefit and, at the same time, relieve him from the objectionable associations that confinement in prison may bring.

If the fault does not lie entirely with the boy why should he be committed to prison?

Because every other form of ameliorative and reformative treatment has been tried without success. It is one of those exceptional cases that I am sure, in any circumstances, will have to receive special treatment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will circularise magistrates, calling their attention to the repeated recommendations of his Department that adolescents should not be sent to prison.

Some crimes committed by young persons may be so serious that a severe sentence may be imperative in the interest of the community as a whole, and, until there are adequate alternative methods of treatment, I could not advise courts that in no circumstances should a sentence of imprisonment be passed on a youthful offender. Attention has frequently been called to the objections to imprisonment for young offenders and to the duty of magistrates before passing such a sentence to satisfy themselves that that course is inevitable and that no other method of treatment can properly be employed. In the circumstances while I am not unsympathetic with the object of my hon. Friend, I do not think that her object would be advanced by the issue of any further circular on this subject at present.

Is the Minister prepared to issue instructions that psychiatric treatment is given in all cases to any offenders who obviously are in need of it?

No, Sir. I am not prepared to issue instructions, because I find that issuing instructions is the less satisfactory way of dealing with these matters than tendering advice.

Questions

Taxicabs (Night Fares)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether he will consider increasing taxicab fares late at night in order to encourage taxicabs to compete with private-hire motorcars which ply at night at a minimum charge of 10s.

The introduction of increased taxicab fares at night has been considered on several occasions but for a variety of reasons, including the difficulties which arise from the fact that the taximeter cannot be altered to show two rates of fare, my predecessors have felt unable to adopt such a system. I see no grounds for dissenting from these conclusions. I would add that private hire cars may not legally ply for hire in the streets.

Will the Home Secretary say what is the objection to making a simple rule, as in Paris, that after a certain hour of night the fare should be double that on the taximeter?

My experience of dealing with taxi drivers is that when there is a rule about which there can be no definite indication on the meter, this leads to a good deal of dispute and unpleasantness.

Will the Minister take steps to see that the charges for private hire cars are controlled?

Borstal System (Escapes)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the total accommodation available for Borstal boys in July, 1939, January, April, July and October, 1945, and January, 1946, respectively; what is the total number of boys who have escaped during each three-monthly period; how many of those who escaped during each period are still at large; and what percentage of all Borstal boys escape at least once during their detention.

As the answer involves a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the Minister taking steps to try to reduce the number of boys who escape, and stop so many getting away?

It is desirable that a number of these boys should be kept in positions that allow them a considerable amount of liberty. It may be that some of them abuse the confidence that is placed in them, but while this is a reformative system, as I hope it is, I hope that I shall not be compelled to place undue restrictions on them.

Following is the answer:

July, 1939

2,470

January, 1945

1,784

April, 1945

1,784

July, 1945

1,784

October, 1945

1,865

January, 1946, approx.

2,300

The total number of Borstal boys who escaped during each three-monthly period and the number still at large is:

Escapes

Still at large

January—March, 1945

113

5

April—June, 1945

136

4

July—September, 1945

159

12

October—December, 1945

122

6

530

27

During the six months ended 31st December, 1945, 679 Borstal lads were licensed and of these 161 or 23.7 per cent. had absconded at least once.

Aliens

Distressed Persons Scheme

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps have been taken to implement his assurance that special arrangements would be worked out in Germany and Austria, where there is no British Embassy, to deal with applications for visas made by distressed persons who have relatives in this country able and willing to look after them.

I regret that I am not yet in a position to add to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Acock's Green (Mr. Osborne) last Thurs-day.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the number of refugees admitted to this country by his Department under the scheme of November, 1945; the total number of applications received; and those so far granted under this scheme.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the statements which I made on this subject last Thursday.

Naturalisation

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department approximately how many applications for naturalisation are now awaiting the consideration of his Department; how many of these are from aliens who have served in or with the British Forces; and how many are dealt with in an average month.

About 16,000 applications are outstanding. As regards the second part of the Question, I would refer to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for South Leicester (Flying-Officer Bowden) on 4th February. As regards the third part, while the general policy of suspension was in operation the number of special applications dealt with each month was very small, and it is too early yet to estimate accurately how many will be dealt with when the policy outlined in my statement of 15th November is in full operation.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether in the case of those men who have served in His Majesty's Forces, length of service is taken into account at all?

It is more a question of the character the men have revealed and how well they have done in the Services, and in order to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion on that it is desirable that the service should be something more than purely temporary.

Questions

Juvenile Delinquency

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now in a position to state when a Report will be published on the cause and incidence of juvenile delinquency during the war years.

I am anxious that the publication of statistics relating to crime, which was suspended during the war, should be resumed as soon as practicable, but I am afraid it is not possible at the present time to say how long the work of compilation and publication will take.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that is the same answer which he gave to me in reply to a similar Question on the day we adjourned for the Christmas Recess?

N.F.S. (Release)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will release from the N.F.S. Fireman H. J. Coombs and Fireman G. W. Ball, stationed at the Central Fire Station, Tottenham, particularly having regard to their age and service.

I regret that for the reasons which I gave in my statement in the House on 8th November, it is not yet possible to release all the members of the Service who have applied for their discharge. When it is possible to release further men in London due weight will be given to the length of service of the two firemen in question, but at present I am afraid that their discharge cannot be authorised.

Summertime

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department on what date he proposes to restart Summertime.

In accordance with the Summer Time Acts, 1922, and 1925, Summertime will come into force this year at 2 a.m. Greenwich Meantime on the morning of 14th April.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the Summer starts then, too?

Will the Minister give consideration to people whose work ends at about 5 o'clock and who like to get to work in their gardens as early in the year as possible? Will he consider instituting Summertime sooner?

I think the weight of the general considerations that have to be borne in mind does not allow me to introduce Summertime sooner, and, of course, it would involve special legislation to do it.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that during the war Summertime and Double Summertime very materially reduced food production? In view of the present serious food situation, will he reconsider this tinkering with the clock?

The announcement I have made today is governed by Statute, and any alterations would involve further legislation. The hon. and gallant Member's supplementary question indicates that it is impossible to get unanimity on this matter.

Pensions and Grants

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he proposes to introduce legislation to enable him to review all cases in which war pensions have been refused, with a view to awarding pensions on the principle of fit for service, fit for pension.

asked the Minister of Pensions if he has arrived at any conclusion concerning the replacement or basic revision of the Royal Warrant, in order, particularly, to put into practice the principles of fit for service, fit for pension and the benefit of the doubt.

I would refer the hon. Members to Paragraph 2, Cmd. 6714, "Improvements in War Pensions" which sets out the Government's conclusion in this matter.

In order to take this matter out of politics, will the right hon. Gentleman have a judicial inquiry into its merits?

asked the Minister of Pensions why, whereas part-time CD. volunteer:, injured while proceeding directly to or from their duty have been granted ex gratia awards by his Department, whole-time paid CD. personnel injured in the same circumstances are not granted any such awards; and whether he will reconsider his decision to refuse an award to Mr. Thomas Carse, of 3, Fielding Place, Carr Hill, Gateshead, who is permanently crippled as the result of the accident he sustained on 21st November, 1941, when proceeding to his home from his post of duty as a full-time warden.

The decision in the case of Mr. Carse is in accordance with the broad principle established by decisions under the Workmen's Compensation Act and it has been held recently by the High Court that the same principle must apply in construing the Personal Injuries (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1939. I regret, therefore, that I am unable to reconsider my decision in this individual case. The position of an unpaid part-time volunteer presented, however, certain special features which, it was considered, justified the making of an ex gratia award in the cases indicated.

Does my right hon. Friend's reply mean that whole-time paid personnel were not regarded as being on duty while proceeding to and from their posts, and that they were not entitled to an award, whereas those on part-time were so entitled?

Part-time personnel were in a rather different position than those on full time, and because of that they were given special consideration.

Does that mean that full-time personnel were regarded as being paid when they sustained accidents while on duty, and were not entitled to recompense for accidents while proceeding to and from their posts?

Full-time personnel were paid under the terms of the Workmen's Compensation Act.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether it is his intention to increase the amount of pension granted to those parents who have lost sons or daughters in the war, particularly in view of the higher cost of living, and the fact that in many cases they were contributing materially to the support of their parents.

In determining the pension which I can award to a parent, I have regard, among other matters, to the amount of the contribution made by the dead son or daughter. In normal cases, I do not subsequently adjust this amount on the hypothetical grounds that the deceased might have varied it upwards or downwards. Nor would it, in my view, be desirable to attempt such an adjustment. If, however, the hon. Member has in mind the maximum rates which may be paid I would refer him to the increases announced in paragraph 20 of Cmd. 6714, "Improvements in War Pensions."

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that in the case of elderly parents this causes serious financial difficulties, and will he reconsider the matter and give them more generous treatment?

This matter was recently considered by the Government. Under the terms of the White Paper, "Improvements in War Pensions," which comes into operation this week, generous increases are given, both on the basic means limit, on which the calculation is made, and the maximum benefit which may be paid.

Housing

Compulsory Purchase Orders

asked the Minister of Health the number of consents refused by his Department to applications made by local authorities in 1945 for compulsory purchase orders to acquire land for housing purposes; and the total acreage involved.

During 1945 applications for confirmation of 10 compulsory purchase orders to acquire land for housing purposes were refused; about 78 acres were involved.

Progress

asked the Minister of Health how many houses were completed in England and Wales during the six months ended 31st December, 1945; and how many are still required to house people.

The number of houses completed will be given in the first progress report which will be published towards the end of this month. As regards the number of houses required, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the statement made by my right hon. Friend on 17th October last.

That is a purely evasive reply. I have asked a number of times in this House for the figures for the six months ended 31st December last. Can the hon. Gentleman give me the information?

I have already said that the information will be provided at the end of this month.

Widnes

asked the Minister of Health whether he has yet been able to overcome the difficulties, particulars of which have been submitted to him, in effecting first-aid repairs to slum property in the Borough of Widnes.

Difficulties in the supply of certain essential materials are still a limiting factor to the amount of work which can be carried out, but all possible action is being taken.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is sufficient labour and material for building new houses by private enterprise for sale, and will he take steps to divert some of that labour and material for the purpose of repairing slum properties which, in some cases, have been uninhabitable for 30 or 40 years?

Much power lies in the hands of local authorities who have to licence the building of any new houses. If they take into account the needs of their areas they will limit those licences according to the work that ought to be done.

Private Developers (Maximum Cost)

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that since the maximum permitted cost for new private enterprise houses was fixed at £1,200 for the provinces and £1,300 for London, the actual cost of building such houses has increased by reason of the introduction of a guaranteed week with payment for wet weather for all building workers and of the advance of 4d. per hour in the wages of all building craftsmen; and whether he will now raise the permitted cost.

asked the Minister of Health if, in view of the increase of rates of pay to building operatives and to enable houses to be built which otherwise would not be, he will agree to some increase in the present limit of £1,200 for new house building.

asked the Minister of Health whether, having regard to all the present circumstances and, particularly, the recent rise in wages, he proposes to alter in the near future the present limits governing the size and ceiling price of new houses.

asked the Minister of Health for what reason he has refused to allow private enterprise builders an increase in licence value to meet the additional cost of approximately £80 per house due to the rise of 4d. per hour in building wages, whereas local authority contractors receive this additional cost in full under the terms of their contract.

My right hon. Friend does not propose to increase the maximum selling price of houses erected by private developers because of the recent advance in wages. This advance was accompanied by a pledge from both sides of the industry that output would return to the 1938 level at the earliest possible moment, and it is well appreciated by the industry that building costs must be kept down.

While appreciating that reply, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he has forgotten that he said in the House, some weeks ago, that it was intended to raise the price to £1,500? In view of that, could he say when that intention will be carried out?

That is a misunderstanding on the part of my hon. Friend. I said nothing of the sort. What I said was that local authorities were to be given power to advance money to individuals for the purchase of houses costing up to £1,500. That had nothing to do with the question of licensing.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say what progress has been made in raising the output in the building trades?

I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will find that that will be indicated in the return to be presented at the end of this month.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that his answer will mean that many houses that would otherwise have been built will not now be built, and is it not the chief purpose that houses should be built? Ought not this increase, therefore, to be made?

I think the hon. Member will find that the number of houses being built under licence is very considerable.

Unoccupied Houses and Flats (London)

asked the Minister of Health the number of unoccupied houses and flats in the following London boroughs: St. Marylebone, Paddington, Kensington, Chelsea and Westminster, respectively.

May I ask my hon. Friend what steps he will take to make this vacant accommodation available to the many thousands of families who are in need of it?

Local authorities are already in possession of powers for the requisition and repair of unoccupied houses and in all these localities they are using those powers.

Will the Minister bear in mind that a number of these vacant properties are requisitioned by Government Departments but are not occupied? Will he also bear in mind that many of the houses are in urgent need of bomb damage repairs before they can be occupied?

The repair of many of these unoccupied premises is holding up their use for occupation.

How is it that the hon. Gentleman can give us this very detailed information about unoccupied houses when he is unable to give my hon. and gallant Friend the number of houses completed?

I have already said that the return will be presented to the House at the end of the month.

Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House what is the political complexion of the local authorities who are failing to carry out this work?

Will the Minister say why, in view of the large number of unoccupied flats he has given, occupied flats are having billetees imposed upon them to the inconvenience and great discomfort of the occupiers?

Tied Cottages

asked the Minister of Health whether he is prepared to introduce legislation to protect tenants in tied cottages from eviction, in view of the shortage of alternative accommodation.

No, Sir. The proper remedy for the tied cottage problem is in my right hon. Friend's view the provision of an ample number of free cottages by the local authorities and he is endeavouring to expedite this provision by every means in his power.

In view of that very unsatisfactory reply—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—I do not mean unsatisfactory for the same reason as hon. gentlemen opposite—may I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he is aware that I have had two instances in my constituency where such tenants have been without protection from the law, and that in one case a child suffering from tuberculosis was put out with its parents without any shelter whatsoever? Will the Government give further consideration to the question of protecting these people?

It is obvious that I was not aware of what the hon. Gentleman has said. The statement I have made is that the Government are not considering legislation for this purpose at the moment.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that, notwithstanding the provision of alternative houses, the principle of tied cottages is unfair, and will he take steps to untie them?

Is the Minister aware that in many districts mining and agricultural workers are being threatened with eviction and are being evicted with no alternative accommodation of any kind because they are in these so-called tied cottages? Will he take steps to put an end to these evictions?

May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether, in view of what he has heard today, he would not be prepared to reconsider the whole question of the Rent Restrictions Acts so that there may be a removal of the present difficulties?

We will keep in mind the whole problem of tied cottages and rent control and deal with it at the earliest possible moment.

Flats (Shops, Conversion)

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the large number of empty shops which could be turned into flats; and if he is prepared to give local authorities power to requisition such premises in order that they may be used for housing purposes.

Floor Space Restrictions

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the present restrictions on floor space in new houses are preventing the building of small houses of floor space less than 730 square feet and houses exceeding 1,000 square feet of types much needed for accommodating members of the wage earning classes; and if he will, therefore, revise the present restrictions on floor space so as to enable much needed houses to be built.

My right hon. Friend does not consider that the present restrictions on the floor space of houses which may be erected under licence by private developers are preventing the building of small houses of the kind most needed; and he is not prepared to enlarge them at the present time.

Is the hon. Member aware that the present lower limit is too high for building a small cottage for an old couple who want to live as economically as possible, and that the higher limit is too low for building a decent sized house for a working man with a large family? Would he be prepared to consider removing the existing conditions in favour of something more flexible?

No, Sir. We are convinced that the limits here set down will provide the greatest amount of accommodation at the present time.

Large Houses (Conversion)

asked the Minister-of Health, in view of the fact that there are many large houses of the older type occupied by only two persons, which could be converted into two or three separate dwellings, if he is prepared to consider amending drastically requisitioning powers so as to empower local authorities to take over these houses where tenants agree either to accept alternative accommodation or to occupy a portion of the house so converted.

asked the Minister of Health what action he has taken, or proposes to take, in regard to the Report of the Central Housing Advisory Committee on the conversion of large houses; and whether he has given, or proposes to give, advice to the local authorities in regard thereto.

The report of the Committee on the Conversion of Existing Houses raises some difficult issues, and is still under consideration.

Wandsworth

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that there are 50,000 persons already recorded on the borough of Wandsworth's housing list; that they are all pre-war residents of the borough and include many thousands of bombed-out people and Servicemen and women; that the numbers are increasing each week with demobilisation and that so far no permanent house has been built and no temporary house has been erected on the fringes of Streatham and Tooting Bee commons; that large numbers of bomb-damaged houses remain unrepaired; and what immediate action he proposes to take.

I am aware that the housing need in Wandsworth is acute. Good progress has, however, been made with war damage repairs; sites for over 1,000 temporary houses have been made available to the Ministry of Works, 464 such houses having been completed and handed over to the Local Authorities; and a tender for the erection of 70 permanent houses by the Borough Council is now being considered by the County Council. I consider that the Authorities concerned are making good progress, bearing in mind the very difficult conditions in the Borough.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the programme which he has just read out bears a strong family resemblance to other programmes promised for months past, and that my complaint is the total lack of performance?

asked the Minister of Health why he continues to delegate his responsibility for rehousing in Wandsworth when he has been informed that 20,000 bombed-out victims are still awaiting rehousing and that the L.C.C. have allotted 70 per cent. of the Portal type temporary houses built so far to residents from other boroughs.

Temporary houses provided and maintained by the London County Council are available for Londoners without distinction of borough boundaries, and I understand that the County Council allocate their temporary houses entirely on a basis of need. I do not see any reason to depart from this.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary agree that bombed-out people and others, under the instructions of his Department, have to record their names in their own boroughs, and that those names are not known to the London County Council? Can he state the persons who qualify for inclusion in the London County Council register?

Names recorded on local authority registers are very often checked up with the London County Council, and arrangements have been made for that purpose.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary accept my assurance that until this Question appeared on the Paper there was no co-operation whatever between the L.C.C. and the Wandsworth Borough Council?

As a person who spent many years in London local life I say that there is that co-operation, and great co-operation, at the present moment.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the L.C.C. have decided against using the gun site on Tooting Bee Common for emergency housing; and, having regard to the situation prevailing, will he give instructions to have this decision reversed.

I understand that the council have arranged to acquire sites adequate for the temporary houses allocated to them, and I see no need to interfere with their discretion in their choice.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary take steps to use this waste site, which I understand the War Office are reserving for defence, and will he also bring to the notice of the Minister of Health the fact that the war against overcrowding is of paramount importance at this moment?

This site is not a fringe site. Therefore, it is not easily used. It is much better for us to use the time and labour at our disposal upon fringe sites for development, rather than take in sites like this.

I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Questions

Lock-Up Garages (Rents)

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that increased charges have been made by some firms for lock-up garages, since the announcement that permits are no longer necessary for the purchase of new cars; and whether he will take steps to restrict the rentals of lock-up garages in view of the acute shortage of general garaging accommodation.

My right hon. Friend has received no previous representations on this matter, and he has no power to take the action suggested by my hon. Friend.

Will the hon. Member take an early opportunity to consult some of his colleagues with a view to expediting the derequisitioning of garages in order to make more garages available at a reasonable price?

The essential point here is that even if we had the knowledge we have not the power, as suggested, to deal with it.

Defence Research

asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been drawn to the Seventh Report from the Select Committee on National Expenditure, Session 1944–1945, on Research and Development, Warlike Stores; and whether he is now in a position to inform the House of any steps that have been taken to examine the questions dealt with in this Report and to follow up the suggestions made therein.

I can assure the hon. Member that all aspects of Defence research, including those raised by the Report to which he refers, are under active consideration by His Majesty's Government, who have every intention of making adequate provsion for it in our postwar arrangements.

May I ask whether the Lord President of the Council will take steps to circulate in this Parliament reports that were made during the last Parliament on matters concerning postwar reconstruction?

That question seems very wide. I think we had better have notice of it.

Production Policy

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the need of the people of this country to obtain and purchase British goods, he will give an assurance that he will not carry the policy of austerity at home any further than it is in force at present; and if, for the purpose of stimulating the will to work and thereby increasing production, he will take all possible steps to ease the present austerity Regulations.

As the production of consumer goods increases with availability of more labour and certain scarce raw materials, the Government's policy is to raise civilian standards both by supplying more goods direct to the home market and by exporting a sufficient volume of goods to enable us to secure the imports that are vitally necessary for our people.

Will the Government concentrate their full energy upon increasing the production of food and of household necessities? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that about the only thing which can be freely purchased in London is a postage stamp, and that one cannot get warm and fat on that?

I should advise the hon. Member not to try to follow the latter course. As to the earlier part of his question, no doubt he is aware the Government are exceedingly active in the direction of his wishes.

Are not the Government waiting on events? Would it not be better if they took immediate action?

Prisoners of War (Use)

asked the Prime Minister what steps are being taken to relieve Britain of the necessity of supporting and feeding the 353,044 prisoners of war in the United Kingdom at the beginning of the year, and to repatriate them.

The hon. Member's suggestion that the prisoners of war in this country are a burden to us is wholly misconceived. The great majority of these prisoners, both Germans and Italians, are engaged on work of the highest importance, for which suitable British labour is not available. The Italian prisoners are being repatriated as rapidly as transport allows. All Italian prisoners will be repatriated during the course of this year, and up to date 30,000 have left the United Kingdom. A further 14,000 are due to go this month. No arrangements have been made or are at present in contemplation for the repatriation of the German prisoners. On the contrary, arrangements are in hand to bring further German prisoners to this country from other areas in considerable numbers to make good the loss of Italians, and to supplement the prisoners-of-war labour forces.

In view of the disastrous food policy of this Government, would it not be better, as a first step, to send all these prisoners back so that we do not have to feed them, and then to set our-own people to work instead?

I really think the hon. Gentleman cannot have listened to a word of my reply.

Would the Lord President of the Council bear in mind that bringing in German prisoners is merely postponing the whole question of agricultural labour and wages? Will he take into consideration the moral and human aspects of the matter, and the question whether we can keep these prisoners working indefinitely in their present conditions on the land in this country?

Can we have an assurance that we shall keep these German prisoners just as long as it suits our convenience and will not return them on grounds of sentimentality?

As the right hon. Gentleman is referring to the majority of German prisoners, will he undertake to use the remainder in maintaining our roads and so assist in bringing down the accident rate on the roads?

In accordance with Socialist principles we shall do with them whatever is socially desirable and necessary.

Civil Service (Higher Appointments)

asked the Prime Minister the principles upon which appointments are made in the higher grades of the Foreign Service, Colonial Service and Home Civil Service when these appointments are not made from within the services concerned.

I assume that the hon. Member has in mind not the general system of recruitment to the higher grades of the services mentioned but the selection exceptionally, of individuals for particular posts. For such purposes, the fundamental principle is the selection from those available of the individual best fitted to undertake whatever responsibilities are involved.

Will the Lord President of the Council give an assurance that His Majesty's Government will always follow the precedent set up by former Governments and disregard political considerations?

I cannot speak with sufficient authority about former Governments to be quite sure whether their conduct was always up to scratch, but I can assure the hon. Member that the conduct of this Government will always reach a high moral level.

Germany (British Supplies)

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to what extent supplies from Britain for German civilian use are being delivered as a gift or against payment; if against payment, what German authority has undertaken the debt; and what steps he is taking to ensure that German industry in the British zone delivers, either as reparations or as normal exports, an adequate volume of goods, materials or equipment acceptable to Britain.

No supplies for civilian use in Germany are being delivered by H.M. Government as gifts In accordance with the Potsdam Agreement, the full cost of such supplies is due to be recovered from the proceeds of exports from Germany. Everything possible is being done, and will be done within the limits of International agreements, to recoup expenditure, by stimulating the supply of goods from the British zone.

Employment

Ex-Servicemen (Qualifications)

asked the Minister of Labour if it is the intention of his Department when handling ex-Service personnel seeking employment to take into account, when assessing their capabilities, the qualifications gained as the result of their Service training, and particularly in the engineering field, to ensure that no Service-trained craftsmen will be deprived of that status in industry by trade union action.

The answer to the first part of the Question is, "Yes, Sir." With regard to the latter part of the Question, certain classes of Service tradesmen are already accepted as skilled craftsmen in the engineering industry and I am having discussions with the two sides of the industry in regard to the admission of others as craftsmen, where there is a substantial shortage.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the disemployed aeronautical engineers feel, that to their disadvantage, the A.E.U. is dictating the path which the Minister should follow?

I most definitely disagree with that statement. The Amalgamated Engineering Union are co-operating with us most sincerely in this matter.

Unemployment Statistics

asked the Minister of Labour if he will calculate what the maximum official unemployment figure would have been in each of the years from 1931 to 1935 if there had been

Date.

Durham.

Spennymoor.

Crook.

Males.

Females.

Males.

Females.

Males.

Females.

October, 1944

139

45

83

68

70

21

January, 1945

165

67

84

48

50

15

November, 1945

512

925

706

1,252

304

422

December, 1945

524

887

737

1,241

271

425

Training Schemes (Age Limit)

asked the Minister of Labour if he will consider extending the age limit for ex-Service personnel to be eligible for training under National Service schemes, in view of the many cases of hardship imposed by the existing age limit of 30 years upon many who would be otherwise suited for such vocational training.

The hon. and gallant Member appears to have been misinformed There is no such age limit.

Domestic Staffs (Hospitals)

asked the Minister of Labour, if he is aware that the Acton and Wembley Joint Isolation Hospital is in

as many in those years in the Forces and engaged on munitions as were estimated by his Department to have been so engaged on 31st December, 1945.

I regret that sufficient information does not exist to enable me to make the estimates asked for by the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of unemployed males and females at the Durham, Spennymoor and Crook labour exchanges for the months of November and December, 1944; also for the months of November and December, 1945.

As the reply includes a table of figures, I will if I may circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

Statistics are not available in respect of November and December, 1944. The Table below shows the numbers of insured males and females suitable for ordinary employment registered at the Durham, Spennymoor and Crook Employment Exchanges as unemployed in October, 1944 and January, 1945, and in November and December, 1945:

danger of closing down through shortage of domestic staff, being kept open at the moment by the nursing staff covering the domestic duties during on and off duty periods, including the matron; and, as many other hospitals are' still similarly situated, what further steps he proposes to prevent hospitals closing down from the causes indicated.

There are vacancies outstanding for five full-time domestic workers and one part-time, the most important vacancies being for a cook and an assistant cook. My officers are making every effort to fill these vacancies.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the nursing staffs of our hospitals who are carrying on under very great difficulties deserve commendation, particularly the nursing staffs who are voluntarily undertaking domestic duties in order that their hospitals may be kept open?

I agree with what the hon. Gentleman says. They do deserve a very warm commendation. The publicity campaign recently put out is getting very satisfactory results.

Will the Minister reconsider bringing over here female domestic workers from the Continent to perform the duties mentioned in the Question?

That is another question, but it is a matter which is receiving further attention.

Ophthalmic Workers

asked the Minister of Labour what priority is given to the provision of skilled labour for ophthalmic opticians; and whether he entertains any hope of improvement in this position in the near future.

The highest preference is available for the supply of labour to the optical industry. Skilled ophthalmic workers are being released from the Forces under Class B, and I am hopeful that the industry will also benefit from the labour becoming available from munitions production and Class A releases.

National Institute of Houseworkers

asked the Minister of Labour if he is now able to state whether the Government intends to implement the recommendations of the Markham-Hancock Report on private domestic employment.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is now in a position to state the Government's policy on the report of the recent inquiry on domestic service.

Yes, Sir, it has been decided to set up forthwith on a limited experimental basis, a National Institute of Houseworkers as recommended in this Report. I will circulate details of the proposal in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the statement:

The Government recognise the importance to the country as a whole of the proper organisation of this field of employment and it has decided to set up forthwith a National Institute of Houseworkers as recommended in this Report. The institute will be set up in the first place on a limited experimental basis. The first and most important object of the institute will be to raise the prestige of domestic employment and to attract more workers into the profession thus assisting hospitals and other similar institutions where the need for domestic workers is particularly acute. The institute will also have the functions of securing training for domestic employment in households, to standards which it will lay down, either in technical institutions, Government Training Centres or its own training centres. Workers trained in this way and others who give satisfactory proof of their qualifications will be given certificates of efficiency by the institute.

Such workers will be placed, in cooperation with the employment exchanges, either with employers or with the Home Helps Service which local authorities are now developing and it is hoped that this will open up a new field of labour supply for this valuable social service. As a general rule domestic workers holding the institute's certificate will become the direct employees of the employers for whom they work, but a staff of regular trained employees of the institute will be organised at a few selected centres, for supply on an hourly basis and at a charge calculated to cover the full cost, to housewives who are unable to afford the expense of full-time domestic help or who do not wish to engage such help regularly.

The institute will establish standards to which employers of domestic workers holding the institute's certificate will be expected to conform. It will secure in co-operation with the Education Departments the provision of instruction to housewives in the most up-to-date methods of organising domestic work and it will serve as a centre for research into all problems relating to the supply of and demand for workers in private domestic employment. The institute will be given a reasonable degree of autonomy in the management of its affairs, but will work in close consultation with my Department.

Factory Inspectorate (Transfer)

asked the Minister of Labour whether the Government propose that the administration of the Factory Acts should remain with his Department on a permanent basis.

Yes, Sir. It is contemplated that the legal transfers of Ministerial functions for that purpose will be made by Order in Council under the Ministers of the Crown (Transfer of Functions) Bill, when that Bill becomes law, and the Factory Inspectorate will continue to be a separate Department, attached to the Ministry under the title "Factory Department" just as it was when attached to the Home Office.

Ex-R.A.F. Officers

asked the Minister of Labour how many unemployed ex-R.A.F. officers are on the R.A.F. liaison officers' list at the Ministry of Labour; and how many have been unemployed for six weeks or longer.

I am having this information extracted and I will write to the hon. Member.

May I ask my right hon. Friend to make sure that these gallant men shall receive consideration as apparently some of them are finding difficulty in getting employment?

I would ask the House to accept the assurance that the Ministry and the Government are anxious to do all they can to find these men work.

Demobilisation

Slate Quarry Workers

asked the Minister of Labour what are the latest available figures of Services personnel released under Class B to return to the North Wales slate quarry industry; and, in view of the heavy demands now being made upon that industry and the shortage of suitable labour to enable the industry to meet trade demands, if he will expedite the release from the Services of all men who were engaged in the slate quarrying industry before call-up for Service.

The Services have been asked to release up to a total of 728 slate quarry workers under Class B block release arrangements, but I do not know how many have been released up to date. In addition, some 900 names of experienced workers are now being considered by the Services for immediate release.

In view of the fact that 8,000 men were employed in this industry in 1938, and only 4,000 are now available, will the right hon. Gentleman take special care about slate quarry workers?

Yes, Sir, I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that we are making this special effort to get the men out.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the total number of men engaged in slate quarrying in Caernarvonshire in 1938 and at this date, respectively; and the number of Class B and Class W(T) Reserve releases to the industry already affected.

The estimated number of men aged 18 and under 65 years insured against unemployment in the Slate Quarrying Industry in Caernarvonshire at July, 1938, was 5,050. At July, 1945, the latest date for which corresponding figures are available, the total was 2,100. As regards release of men in Class B, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given today to the hon. and gallant Member for Caernarvon Boroughs (Lieut.-Colonel Price-White). The number of men released to the slate quarrying industry under the wartime procedure was about 140.

Is the Minister aware that the demand for Welsh roofing slate is three or four times the supply, and that local authorities and the industry are gravely concerned? Will he look again into this question of releasing these highly skilled producers of essential building material?

I repeat the assurance that I have previously given, that it is having every attention.

Boot and Shoe Industry

asked the Minister of Labour to what extent the increase in manpower in the boot and shoe industry has been allocated proportionately, under the Class B release scheme or otherwise, to firms producing rubber boots and shoes.

The leather footwear and rubber footwear industries are separate and distinct as regards the kind of labour they employ and no question of proportionate allocation of labour arises.

asked the Minister of Labour how many men have been released from the Forces under Class B to the boot and shoe industry, up to the latest available date.

There is no scheme for the bulk release of men in Class B for the boot and shoe industry, with the exception of a small number of consol lasters, who have only recently been asked for. By 15th January, however, 215 women had been released in Class B for the boot and shoe industry.

Agricultural Workers

asked the Minister of Labour how many of the Class B releases for agricultural workers are for those who have experience of, or skill in, such rural trades as thatching, smithing and saddlery.

Business of the House

May I ask the Leader of the House if he will make a statement on the Business for next week?

The Business for next week will be as follows:

Monday, 11th February—As I have already announced, the Business will be the conclusion of the Debate on the Second Reading of the National Insurance Bill, by 6.30 p.m. Afterwards, we shall take the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution, and consider the Lords' Amendments to the Bank of England Bill.

Tuesday and Wednesday, 12th and 13th February—Second Reading of the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill.

Thursday, 14th February—The Adjournment will be moved to give an opportunity for a Debate on the world food shortage.

Friday, 15th February—A Debate will take place on the Government's agricultural policy. It is proposed to table a Motion in general terms in order to allow a wide Debate.

Whilst we are in accord with the change of timetable for the last two days, may I ask the Leader of the House if he will bear in mind that we were to have two days for agriculture, the second of which, I think, was to be devoted largely to forestry? At some later stage, may we have that second day for agriculture?

I appreciate the point; I am hoping that we might be able to make some arrangement in regard to the Supply Days which will soon be coming, to deal with agriculture and forestry.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, as the question of food supply is so very urgent, and people so anxious about it, whether it would be possible to discuss these two matters on Tuesday and Wednesday, rather than the Trade Disputes Bill?

The arrangements have been made; it would be very inconvenient to upset them now.

May I ask my right hon. Friend when he anticipates introducing the new Ministry of Civil Aviation Bill?

May I ask the Leader of the House whether he proposes to find time for the Debate on the Motion standing in the names of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) and myself, regarding certain reports on tanks which were made to the Prime Minister, and, if he cannot find time, when can he let us have an answer with regard to the publication of these reports?

I am unable to find time for the Motion; my hon. Friend did have a talk with me, and I am seeing that the matter is brought forward with a view to a decision being reached on the point which he raises.

May I ask the Leader of the House whether, in view of the constitutional importance of the Trade Disputes Bill, he does not think that there is serious inconvenience in taking it at such short notice?

The question surprises me; the Bill was presented on 23rd January, copies were available on the 25th January, and, after all, it is only a hand-bill of a Bill, with only about 150 words in it. I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman, coming from the place he does, would have grasped it by now.

I should like to inquire whether it is in Order to attribute either questions or answers to the origins of hon. Members, and whether it is not an abuse of this House to describe the Bill as short, when it is repealing a Bill of extreme complication and of some length?

The hon. Member is asking for information, but the second part of his question is certainly political, and therefore I clearly cannot answer it; as regards the first part the matter is one of private opinion.

May I ask the Leader of the House when he expects to be able to give us a day to debate foreign affairs?

I hope it will not be long delayed. I have had to wait until my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was rather more free, and we are now very pleased to know that he is now somewhat more free than he was.

Without endangering the reputation for forbearance which my right hon. Friend gave me the other week, may I now ask him whether the question of a Debate on Palestine has been completely overlooked?

No, Sir, I hope it will be possible to deal with that round about the same time as the foreign affairs Debate.

We may have to allocate part of the period to Palestine. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] There is talk about two days, and if it is to be a two-day Debate, it is reasonable for the Government to allocate part of that to Palestine. I must warn the House that every day I am being urged and pressed to find special days for this, that, and the other. We are finding a good many, but this House is a working party; it is not a mere talking shop.

What the right hon. Gentleman said is quite true, but he will bear in mind that with respect to foreign affairs the House has shown, and rightly shown, the very greatest restraint, and we have no wish to embarrass the Government. The point I wish to make is that weeks have gone by, so I think we ought to have a fairly adequate allocation We do not want the two Debates run into each other. They must be taken separately.

I am not quarrelling personally with the right hon. Gentleman who, on the whole, is, I quite agree, very reasonable. We will certainly try to meet the point that the two things should not be interlocked and mixed.

Personal Statements (Permission)

May. I respectfully ask your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, on a point of Order which arose in the course of yesterday's Debate when I was referring to the friendly societies? I made reference to certain written pledges which, I said, had been given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Insurance. At the time, the Parliamentary Secretary challenged me to produce those documents, and, according to the OFFICIAL REPORT, he said that it was most unfair. As you will recollect, Sir, I was called on rather unexpectedly and had not the documents with me at the time. As I now have those documents in my possession, I ask for your Ruling whether it is in Order for me to exercise the rights of a Member under Standing Order 148 to make a short personal statement in order to refer to those documents and to produce them to the House in order to show that I was not unfair but was, indeed, very justified in what I said.

No, I cannot give permission to the hon. and learned Member to make a personal statement of that kind. Erskine May is very meticulous in what it says about giving permission for personal statements, which should be very sparingly given, and on nothing which would lead or might lead to an irregular Debate. If these letters were read now, I think it would be very difficult for the Parliamentary Secretary not to get up in his defence and so start an irregular Debate. After all, the hon. and learned Gentleman says that he was under a difficulty because he was called sooner than he expected. That is the first time in my experience that hon. Members have complained about being called early. I would also point out that if an hon. Member is prepared to get up, he should have his case complete. Hon. Members cannot pick and choose and say they might like to be called later, or tomorrow, or at, say, half-past nine. If an hon. Member is getting up, he should have his complete case with him. Because the hon. and learned Member did not produce the letter yesterday, he did not have his complete case with him. Therefore, on those grounds, I am afraid I must turn down his application.

Really, Mr. Speaker, the implication of what passed yesterday, to anybody who reads HANSARD and who was not present, was that my hon. and learned Friend had not got such letters. Is he not entitled, therefore, to produce the letters now to show that he was, at any rate, speaking the truth?

I do not think the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has read HANSARD; the hon. and learned Member said that he could have gone outside and shown the Parliamentary Secretary the letters and there was no question of the hon. and learned Member not having the letters; it was not even suggested.

In view of the Government's decision to take the Trade Disputes Bill before the Food Debate, is there not a danger—

On the point with which you were dealing a moment ago, Mr. Speaker, if a Member inadvertently says something which reflects upon the honour or integrity of another Member, is he not then allowed to make a personal statement afterwards to make the position clear?

Nothing was said to reflect upon the honour of the hon. Member. The most that was said was, "I think it is most unfair" and that is often said in Debates. If any reflection were made on the hon. and learned Gentleman later on today, then he would have had his right, perhaps, to state his case.

Ballot for Notices of Motions

Agriculture (Shortage of Labour)

I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to the grave shortage of labour in agriculture, and the lack of suitable accommodation and amenities for agricultural workers, and move a Resolution.

Servicemen's Parents (Pensions)

I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates, I shall call attention to the absence of a grant of pensions for parents of persons in the Army killed in the last war, and the need for granting them, and move a Resolution.

Naval Recruiting

I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—on the Navy Estimates, I shall call attention to recruiting, and move a Resolution.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. It was quite impossible to hear on what Estimates the hon. Member proposed to move a Resolution.

It is impossible to know to which Estimates, the hon. Member referred.

I think the hon. Member was referring to the Navy Estimates.

National Expenditure

I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to the rate of national expenditure, and move a Resolution.

Called-Up Men (Period of Service)

I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Air Estimates, I shall call attention to the uncertainty caused by the failure of His Majesty's Government to specify any period of service for which men are now being called up for the Services, and move a Resolution.

Army Service (Future Conditions)

I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates, I shall call attention to the future conditions of service, and move a Resolution.

Agriculture (Long-Term Policy)

I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to the state of agriculture and the need for the Government to produce a long-term policy, and move a Resolution.

Demobilisation

I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee on Supply on the Army Estimates, I shall call attention to demobilisation and future conditions of service, and move a Resolution.

Royal Air Force (Cadet Corps)

I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Air Estimates, I shall call attention to the future of the Cadet Corps, and move a Resolution.

Royal Navy (Pay, Pensions and Conditions)

I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates, I shall call attention to pay, pensions and conditions of the Royal Navy, and move a Resolution.

Business of the House

Proceedings on Government Business exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House) for One hour after a quarter past Nine o'clock.—[ The Prime Minister. ]

Orders of the Day

National Insurance Bill

Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question ( 6th February ), "That the Bill be now read, a Second time."—[ Mr. James Griffiths. ]

Question again proposed.

3.35 p.m.

Yesterday we had a very able and comprehensive speech on the Second Reading from my right hon. Friend the Minister of National Insurance and, following that, we had a number of extremely interesting speeches, particularly—according to our custom now—a number of exceptionally good maiden speeches from both sides of the House. All were interesting and I would like specially to mention the speech of my non. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Watkins). A great number of points were raised in the Debate, and I think the House will agree that a number of them were essentially Committee points, but there were a number of others of more substance and many of these will be dealt with later in the Debate by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary.

I would like for a brief time this afternoon to deal with some of the general considerations appropriate to a Second Reading Debate. My right hon. Friend stated that this is the third instalment of a great scheme of social security. Family allowances are already on the Statute Book; the Industrial Injuries Bill has passed through Committee, a comprehensive health service is yet to come, but now we have this great Measure which not only embodies great changes and new proposals, but gathers up into one scheme a whole mass of Statutes passed over many years. I think hon. Members looking at this Bill will realise that it contains a number of difficult points, and I am bound to say, as a Member of the wartime Coalition Government, that perhaps they now understand why it was necessary to devote a considerable amount of time to examination of the Beveridge Report before the Government's White Paper could be produced. As one who did not take as much part in those deliberations as some of my colleagues, I would like to pay a tribute to the work that was done then by hon. Members of all parties, and of none. I would particularly mention a man who has, perhaps, as wide a knowledge of this subject as anyone in the country, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson), and also the Lord Chancellor, and the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.

Since then, after the White Paper, there has been a change of Government and the scheme has had to be looked at again. Then came the long and difficult work of reducing general terms and general decisions to the form of a Bill to be placed before this House. I think the fact that we have pressed forward with those big schemes, that we have brought them in legislative form before the House, disproves some of the statements that have been made which suggested that the Government were neglecting the concerns of the ordinary common man in favour of ideological schemes of nationalisation. It is quite true that we have pushed on with nationalisation schemes.

We have also, I suggest, in six short and crowded months made a progress with schemes of social reform which is an unsurpassed record for any Government. As is natural, I think; in a Debate of this sort, many Members have looked back to the struggles of the past and have remembered with gratitude the pioneers, such as Keir Hardie and Lloyd George, who were mentioned yesterday. They have rightly hailed this Bill as the culminating point of exertions extending over many years to substitute collective security for the partial, ill-regulated, insufficient efforts of individuals and groups of individuals, to protect themselves from the changes and chances of this mortal life. I think it is right to stress this, because this Bill, to which, as I say, all parties have contributed, does express a tremendous change in our conceptions of social obligations.

I myself have seen the operation of this change during the last 40 years, since I first, from practical experience, began to learn something of the problems of poverty, slums, and unemployment. I remember then that the only thing, apart from charity from voluntary societies, on which the person in distress could fall back, was the Poor Law. I remember that at that time the principles of the Poor Law of 1834 still reigned supreme. They represented orthodoxy in the field of social service, and when one looks at the wonderful change that has come over the conceptions of the people in this country in this respect it is worth while paying a tribute to some of the early pioneers. I remember my old friend Mr. Rogers, one of the first fighters for old age pensions. I remember Will Crooks and I recall, later, Sir William Beveridge's monumental work on unemployment, and I remember Mr. Lloyd George's Insurance Bill.

The first breach in that fortress of 1834 was the Old Age Pensions Act, but the battle was really joined, as I remember very well, over the representations of the Majority Commission on the Poor Law. I myself took a small part with Mr. and Mrs. Sidney Webb and George Lansbury in that propaganda fight. There followed the Insurance Act, and step by step we have seen the principles of that Report carried out and year by year, almost every year, some advance has been made. There has only been one serious setback, and that was in 1931 when the old conception gained a short victory. I think it is worth while recalling to the younger generation who have grown up with the conception of social services provided by the community—sickness insurance, unemployment insurance, and the rest—that those things were not got without struggle, and that we all owe a tremendous debt to the people who fought for those things years ago.

This Bill is founded on the Beveridge Report. I would like here to pay a tribute to my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, who set Sir William Beveridge to work on this, to Sir William Beveridge himself, and, as I have already said, to members of all parties who worked on it. The White Paper produced by the wartime Coalition Government, accepted by all parties, and by the country, is different in kind from all its predecessors. The earlier schemes were, to a very large extent, actuated by what I might call eleemosynary considerations. First efforts were really concessions to misery. They were the provision for Lazarus of some crumbs from the rich man's table. The setting of this Bill is quite different. It is designed not for one class but for all, and it is a point to be noted how the emphasis of social provision by the State has rightly moved from the conception of doing something just for one class—the class which in our economic conditions was right at the bottom of the ladder—and making provision for such things as workingmen's houses and elementary education, to the conception of homes for the people and education for all. Again, the Bill is not directed to the mitigation of one specific hardship, such as sickness, old age, or unemployment. It seeks to provide for the loss of income which these various incidents, or accidents, of life entail. It seeks to provide security for all. It seeks to provide equal benefits in exchange for equal payments. It seeks to remove those, numerous anomalies that were quite inevitable when piecemeal legislation, extending over a long period of years, was passed through this House.

The Bill brings before us a really comprehensive scheme which seeks to provide for the citizen some security from his birth right to the time of his death and, indeed, even a death benefit after death. I was interested yesterday in the speech of the hon. Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson), who dealt particularly with the question of the death benefit. I have read some of the hon. Member's works on this matter and studied them, and I was very interested in his remarks. I noted his condemnation of some of the abuses connected with the burial of the dead, and his condemnation of the London County Council. I must, say I always thought there was something rather indecent about the burial of the dead being made a subject of private profit. A thing that rather revolted me was the idea of cemeteries being run by limited companies for private profit. I do not think that would have happened any time but in the mid-nineteenth century. I do not know whether the hon. Member spoke for his Party, in expressing the view that, in this field, nationalisation might be the right thing, but I would certainly very much encourage that. I am sure if we had been able—

I am sure the Prime Minister does not wish to misquote what I said. What I said was in regard to the death grant. This Party has supported from the beginning, and that seems to be a clear case where nationalisation has its advantages.

I quite agree. I was not quite clear whether the hon. Member's Party would follow him quite so far, but still if it is so, so much the better. I only wish his Party had allowed us to have passed in any of the numerous years I can remember in this House our Local Government Enabling Bill under which we might have seen a local government undertaking get rid of some of these abuses of which he has complained. I would only say it is our purpose to see that this money is not squandered and wasted in that manner.

The second great change in the setup of this Bill is this. It takes its place as part of a policy of full employment put forward originally by the Coalition Government. In that Government's White Paper on employment policy, there was set forth, I think, almost for the first time in a State document, the vital importance to the economy of the country of maintaining a high standard of purchasing power among the masses of the people. We now recognise that, to allow, through mass unemployment or through sickness, great numbers of people to be ineffective as consumers is an economic loss to the country. We all now hold the view that we must maintain purchasing power and must have a proper distribution of purchasing power among the masses of the people. The old idea that this could only be done through wages and profits, and not by collective provisions of this sort, is now, I think, dying. We on this side have put forward that view for many years.

I can remember hearing it put from the other side of the House so ably in one Debate by Lord Eustace Percy, but it has now become accepted, and it is interesting to see how far, in quite a short time, we have travelled from the conception of the panic cutting-down of the purchasing power of the masses, which was employed as a means of dealing with the abundance crisis of 1931. We now realise that we have the backing of experienced administrators and of the economists that it is necessary, in this matter, to have a degree of planning.

I would like, in this connection, to call attention to an interesting provision in Clause 3 of the Bill, whereby, subject to the specific approval of Parliament, the rates of contrbution may be varied upwards or downwards. This proposal appeared in the White Paper on Full Employment issued in 1944, and there we have the conception, which I can remember being put forward 30 years ago by Mr. Sidney Webb, that it was the duty of the State, by trying to increase purchasing power in times of threatened slump, to iron out the irregularities in our economy. The endeavour here is, to some extent, to try to vary the purchasing power in the pockets of the masses in accordance with the state of employment. It is a piece of long-term policy. We do not claim that it is suitable for a transition period. The power has been taken, but an exact scheme has not been laid down in detail, and I should mention here that it does not affect the essential insurance basis of the scheme, because the proposal is that a lessening of contributions in a slump year should be offset by an increase in a full year. The power is there, though it may take a lot of working out, but it is an interesting and, I think, helpful proposal.

I should like to say a word now on the finances of the scheme. I agree that we are dealing with very large sums. I do not know what would have happened to Mr. Gladstone if he had seen sums like this come along, but I noted that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler) rather suggested that I should give a general survey of the Budgetary situation as it appears today and the exact place of this expenditure in it. It would be a delightful thing to do, but it is the wrong occasion, and I am encouraged in thinking that because the right hon. Gentleman said it should be given, not in meaningless symbols, but in concrete figures. I must say that I have not got an exact image of what a concrete figure is, as compared with a meaningless symbol, but it is a very good phrase. I take it to mean that we must look, not only at real figures, but at what those figures represent. We must not look just at the money income of the country, but at the products of our workers and our services, and I can assure the House that, in due course, we shall be very glad to give a survey of that kind.

The present Bill, and the Industrial Injuries Bill will involve a very big sum. The total cost borne partly by the contributors and the employers is £540 million at the outset, and family allowances, provided entirely by the taxpayer, will cost a further £60 million a year. I might mention, in passing, that that is one of the cases of redress which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden thought showed bias in favour of age against youth in this Bill. Let us remember, first, that ordinary men and women, as contributors, pay a substantial part of the annual cost. Some of my hon. Friends yesterday were pointing out that the sum now paid weekly by the average worker is certainly not less, and is sometimes more, than the contributions under this Bill. The cost to be borne by the Exchequer is some £240 million. That is a large sum, but, large though it is, it is less than three per cent. of the aggregate taxable income of the people of this country today. I do not know whether three per cent. is a concrete figure or just one of those symbols, but it is an important point that it is only three per cent. I do not think it is unfairly large, and let us remember that the total of our national money income is now twice what it was at the beginning of the war, and that, all over the world, currencies are diminished in value. I think we must bear this standard of value in mind, when we look at the figures in this Bill.

The question is asked—Can we afford it? Supposing the answer is "No", what does that mean? It really means that the sum total of the goods produced and the services rendered by the people of this country is not sufficient to provide for all our people at all times, in sickness, in health, in youth and in age, the very modest standard of life that is represented by the sums of money set out in the Second Schedule to this Bill. I cannot believe that our national productivity is so slow, that our willingness to work is so feeble or that we can submit to the world that the masses of our people must be condemned to penury. After all, this is really the payment into a pool of contributions from employers and workers and the products of taxation, and the payment thereout of benefits to various categories of persons. It is a method of distributing purchasing power, and the only validity for the claim that we cannot afford it must rest either on there not being enough in the pool, or on the claim that some sections of society have a priority to take out so much that others must suffer want.

I am not prepared to admit either of those propositions. Where I do entirely agree is, that we can only afford it if we are prepared to utilise to the full our resources in labour and materials, our skill, our scientific inventions and our power of organisation. Therefore, this is only a part of Government policy. There is the complementary side, the reorganisation and the reinvigoration of our economic life, and the increase of our overseas trade. We must secure and maintain a high level of national production. We must eliminate waste, both in production and distribution. But I entirely agree that the benefits of this Bill can only be secured if the people of this country recognise the obligation to work hard for them.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden asked whether it is expected that the savings movement will be carried on with equal vigour after the introduction of schemes of this kind, and whether account is being taken of the need for the savings movement in relation to the national Budget. My answer is that, of course, it is necessary for the savings movement to be carried on with equal vigour, both from a short-term and long-term view. We have not got—we cannot yet have so soon after the war—the amount of consumable goods to satisfy the potential demand. We must have the savings, and I have already said so publicly, and so has the Chancellor of the Exchequer, at meetings in Trafalgar Square and elsewhere. On a short-term view, savings are essential to finance national reconstruction and to support price control and other measures against inflation. The answer is, therefore: Go on saving all you can. But I have heard so often the suggestion made—I do not think it came from the right hon. Gentleman—more in the past than in the present, that if anything is done in this way by means of State provision, you will stop people saving. I can remember that suggestion being made at the time of the introduction of the old age pension of 5s. a week at 70. Of course, it did not happen, but, as a matter of fact, one's own experience proves that if you have something, at all events, to build on, it is easier to add to it, than if you are in the precarious position that you cannot get the first little bit. As I am told in more elevated sections of society, it is easier to become a millionaire if you have the first £100,000 to start with. It is certainly easier to provide something extra for your old age, if you have something to start with.

Our experience in this country has shown that State provision does not kill private savings any more than—one of the most remarkable things—heavy war taxation prevented giving to the community. Therefore, I am not afraid on that score, but there is the other side to be considered. I believe the benefits of this Bill and the provisions of the National Health service—which are our next instalment—will save the immense loss which the country suffers through ill-health. If we calculated, in the number of hours and days lost, the loss of wealth of production, or the rendering of services, year in and year out, we should find it a terrible total of waste, just as continuous unemployment shows an enormous waste of what might be produced, but a far more serious waste in the deterioration of the human capital of this country. Therefore, this Bill, from the long-term point of view, is a true economy and a true addition to the national wealth. It may be said this Bill may take away the incentive to work. That was certainly urged 40 years ago. It was then held that the hope of gain, or the fear of poverty, was the only way to keep people at work. As a matter of fact, in those days the hope of gain was too thin a hope for the vast masses of the people to be effective, and the inevitability of poverty was present for most people, if not for all their lives, certainly in their old age. But I believe experience has shown that unmerited misfortune is not a spur to effort. I think it would be a disaster—which I am sure will not' occur—if people should regard the provision of social security as something to lie back upon, and not make any effort. I do not think that will be the effect. I do not think it will damp down adventure and enterprise.

At the time when the Beveridge Report came out, I was talking to a young and energetic business man who said, "This is just what I want. I can now go in for experiments and adventure, because there is something to fall back on." One of the clogs on adventure and enterprise is the clinging to safety, the fear of any change because of what might happen. It is just the comprehensiveness of this scheme which I think will make it, not a cushion but a springboard. I hope the people of this country will work to secure everyone from want, in the same spirit as they worked to save all from defeat in the war. I hope, too, that this House is going to pass this Bill and, if it can, make it a better Bill. I hope we are going to get the same kind of co-operation as was extended to the right hon. Gentleman' the Member for Saffron Walden when he brought in his Education Bill. That was a great collective effort of the House. Of course, there will be differences on points of detail, but the broad principles of this Bill have been accepted. In recent talks with statesmen from our Dominions and statesmen from foreign countries I have been proud at the reception they have given to this Bill. They have realised that here was a country which had come through tremendous perils and was setting out to try to give security to all its people.

Finally, this is a great human question. It deals with very elemental things, the welfare of the father, the mother, the children and the old people. I never forget some of the things I saw 40 years ago in Limehouse, things that happily have passed away, because we have made a great deal of progress in 40 years. If we had not, it would have been a poor effort put forward by my Party. I hope that the operations of this scheme are going to lessen the sum of human misery and anxiety, and increase the sum of human happiness. Worry and anxiety are as inimical to health and happiness as the actual physical conditions of poverty. That is where the importance of the comprehensiveness of this scheme comes in. A man and woman and the home are free from this ever-present fear. If we can make everybody feel that hard work—we must work hard, all of us in this country—will be rewarded by a reasonable standard of life and security instead of, as in the past, so often being thrown out on the Poor Law at the end of a long and hard working life, we shall have made an immense advance, and I believe that this House will be remembered for this Bill.

4.10 p.m.

Nobody who knows the Prime Minister, and especially those of us who have had the privilege of working with him in the past, will begrudge him the satisfaction which he must feel in presiding over a Government which has been fortunate enough to produce this Measure which we are now discussing. One can tell from what the Prime Minister has just said, that he has a deep interest in these questions, and we know from his own personal history, from the days when he went down from Oxford to the East End of London, how much this problem has been in his mind. I was particularly glad that the Prime Minister did not fall into the error into which I think some of his supporters are prone to fall—the error of thinking that the party opposite is solely responsible for this scheme, that their's is the only party that has ever interested itself in this question of social security, and that no one else in this House has ever bothered about it at all.

The hon. Gentleman opposite says that ours is not a good record. I think, instead of looking at his correspondence and making interjections, he would be well advised to go to the Library and see what our record is, because he will find that in the years between the wars, the party on this side of the House made a tremendous contribution in this field. It is always a hateful task to dispel the illusions of innocence, if that is the proper way to describe these particular illusions of hon. Members opposite, and I am very glad that the Prime Minister gave me some assistance in that task. I would like to point out once again that we on this side of the House welcome this Measure, that we with hon. Members opposite are entitled to credit for this Measure, and that our record in these matters has been unequalled by that of any other party in the State. [ Interruption. ] Of course, it is very easy to make those animal noises which are coming from below the Gangway. And it is very easy to go back, as the Minister did, to 1908 and 1911. If he will allow me to say so, the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of National Insurance yesterday made a speech which was delightful in its lucidity and its sincerity. It was a speech which was worthy of that great Welshman whose name is so-closely associated with this subject. In the course of that speech the Minister gave us a couple of quotations from speeches which were made either in 1911 or 1908 in another place. They were very good quotations, and I think we all laughed at them a good deal. I congratulate the Minister on his research and in finding them, but I would like to point out that the Labour Party is not the only party that sometimes says or does foolish things. The Labour Party has not a monopoly in folly, though it may have claims to a larger share than most of us of that commodity. But one of the differences between us, on this side of the House, and hon. Members opposite, is that we learn from experience, and I do not think they ever do.

Nothing has been more remarkable in the unsurpassed record of this Government—I think that is how the Prime Minister described it, and perhaps in some ways he is right—than the fact that in all this hotch-potch of legislation which is being hurled at the heads of Members of the House of Commons, there is really nothing that would not have been introduced by a Socialist Government in 1890, if there had been a Socialist Government at that time. The Party opposite claims to be a party of progress, but I honestly believe that this Government is the most reactionary Government this country has ever had. This Government is living in the past, in the nineties. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), who I am sorry to see is not here—because I shall have something to say to him—rebuked my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler) yesterday because he called in aid the late Mr. Keir Hardie. I am not sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman has not something to be said on his side, because I think we must recognise that Mr. Keir Hardie is a little bit dated now, and, though he would fit in very well on the Front Bench opposite, the kind of problems with which he was dealing are not the kind of problems with which we are dealing today.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden yesterday emphasised the relative importance which, in the White Paper, is attached to old age as compared with youth, and I think that is certainly true. It appears in the figures. Old age is getting a much better deal than young people who have got to support the aged in the years to come. But I think that is what one might well recognise as characteristic of a Government which is composed, if not of old men, of men who are living in the past, in the nineties, and who are not really living in the present at all. Watching the Front Bench opposite in the few weeks that I have been a Member of this House, it seems to me that they are like a lot of old people, or like an old couple who have waited a long time to succeed to an inheritance, and then, when they have succeeded, do not know what to do with it. I would not say that they do not enjoy it, because I think they do, but I think they do not really know what to do with it. The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery also went back to 1911. It is an extraordinary thing how the hon. and learned Member and that remnant which he leads, love to dwell in the past. I would suggest to the hon. and learned Member—at least, I would if he were here—

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Would it be possible to ascertain on what Bill the right hon. Gentleman is speaking?

I take it that if it was in Order for the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery to refer to the proceedings in 1911, it is in Order for me to do so too. I was saying what a pity it was that the hon. and learned Member was living so much in the past. I would say to him, if he really believes in the principles of Liberalism, in Liberalism as a vital force, and not as an exhibit in a museum, he ought to join forces with us, who are the last support of freedom in a country that is losing its freedom—but which I may add, is going to get it back one of these days. The hon. and learned Member referred to a meeting in the Albert Hall. He described this meeting in some detail. He explained how on the platform there was a duchess, and how the floor, the tier of boxes, and the galleries were packed with parlourmaids and housemaids. He was very much afraid that another such meeting might be staged again now. I think that so far as these benches are concerned I can reassure him on that point. I am not sure about the duchess; I dare say we could raise a duchess, unless they have all joined the Labour Party. But I am quite sure there is nothing we can do about the house- maids and parlourmaids. I am sure even Sir William Beveridge, who I understand is having a meeting at the Albert Hall shortly, will not be able to do much about that. The only man who can do anything is the Minister of Labour, and I do not suppose the Minister of Labour is more interested in parlourmaids than he is in building operatives, or refuse collectors, or miners, or any other of those classes of people we so badly need today.

The Prime Minister said this was, in essence, the Coalition plan, and that is true. In some ways this Bill is more attractive than the Coalition White Paper; in some ways it is less attractive. My right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden was perfectly justified and perfectly right in drawing the attention of the House yesterday to the fact that these proposals do impose a greater premium, a greater burden upon the wage earner than the proposals under the Coalition White Paper. I find it very difficult to understand why the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery and certain other hon. Members seemed to suppose that my right hon. Friend in saying that was, in some way, decrying the value of this Bill, because he was not. I am very glad that there, too, the Prime Minister did lend us some support by dwelling briefly upon the importance of the financial background of this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman, the Minister, used one phrase in his speech which I thought was not quite worthy of the level of the speech as a whole. The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery used the same phrase. The right hon. Gentleman said it was not a question of whether we can afford the Bill, but it was a question of whether we cannot afford it. I must say, I thought that putting the argument on that basis was putting it on the basis of claptrap. We must have regard to the financial provisions of the Bill. The Prime Minister himself said we must have regard to the financial provisions of the Bill.

I would like to make two observations on the financial principles. The Prime Minister referred to Clause 3, and to the conception underlying Clause 3, which dates from the Coalition White Paper on Full Employment. That is the conception that when times are bad you can, in the interests of employment, reduce the contribution, and when times are good, you can then put it back again or raise it, so that over a term of years you get equitable contribution. I do not dissent from that principle at all, but there is one thing I would like to point out to the House and to the Government. There, is one danger in that theory and the danger is this. It is very easy to know when times are bad—and everybody is prepared to admit when times are bad, and everybody would be prepared to reduce the contribution—but it is by no means so easy to recognise when times are good, and it will not be so easy to admit that times are so good that the contribution should be raised. I hope that whatever Government may be in power that will be watched very closely.

The other point I would like to refer to on the financial aspects of the Bill is this. It is necessary for us to remember that this Bill is only paper and ink. The Bill, when it is passed, will still be paper and ink. It is necessary to remember that the figures in the White Paper, and the figures that we are talking about now in this Debate are only figures. What they mean, and what their value will mean in the years to come, depend far less on what we say here and what we write into the Bill, and far more upon the productivity of the industry of this country. I was very glad, if I may say so, that the Prime Minister did express that point in his speech. The Prime Minister said he hoped this House of Commons would pass this Bill. As far as we are concerned I can assure him that his hope will be gratified. He also expressed the hope that the House will improve the Bill. Again, if we have our way that is going to happen.

There are two points in particular on which I think the Bill might be improved, and they are these. We, on these benches, do not consider that the self-employed person is having a fair deal under this Bill. We do not consider it fair that there should be this long waiting period before the self-employed person gets sickness benefit. That is one of the points which I hope the Government will rectify. The other point is the question of the friendly societies and the approved societies generally. I would like to say a word about them. We are very much inclined, in our thinking about this question of social insurance, to consider that its history began in 1908 or 1911. Of course, that is not the case at all. The history of social insurance is really the history of this country. From the remotest times one of the guiding principles of social life in this country has been this principle of mutual help, of insurance. In the Middle Ages that principle was expressed by the guilds; in the 19th century it was expressed by the friendly societies, and then at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century the insurance companies came into the field and, together with the friendly societies, developed this vast groundwork of insurance, which was, in some ways, the basis of the Act of 1911. At any rate it is certain that the Act of 1911 could not have been operated without the help of the approved societies. I think that was admitted at the time; I do not think anyone could deny it now.

And all this is to be swept away. All this groundwork of collaboration, between the State and private agencies, this collaboration which is so much in accord with the traditions of our society, and is so congenial to the tastes of our people—all this is to be swept away by these proposals. I hope very much that, at a later stage, we shall be able to persuade the Government to think again on this matter. And my hope is the more confident because I understand that a very large number of hon. Members on the Benches opposite—I believe the figure is actually 199;—have given the most categorical pledges to have the friendly societies included in the operations of this scheme. I have every confidence, although perhaps I am an optimist, that those pledges will be redeemed.

Of course we all know that the Party opposite gave a number of undertakings last summer which have not been honoured in the spirit and in the letter. We all know of undertakings about the production of coal, the production of food and the production of houses; and we all know what the position is today. But perhaps it may be thought that those pledges given to the friendly societies have a more direct and personal character. At any fate I believe that, if they are not observed, thousands of electors in this country to whom the pledges were given will remember them when the time, comes, as it no doubt will, for hon. Members opposite to give more pledges of that kind. Therefore, I hope that this pledge will be honoured, and that we shall have the support of the whole 199—or 198, for we may have to leave out the Parliamentary Secretary—when this matter comes to be dealt with at a later stage.

We shall ask the Government to reconsider their attitude on this matter, and I ask hon. Members opposite now to do two things which they will find very difficult and which they may even find impossible. I ask them to forget their prejudices for a moment, and to remember their pledges: I ask them to try to recapture the frame of mind in which they were last June and July, when not many of them ever expected to get nearer to this House than the visitors' gallery, and on that hypothesis made pledges? that are extremely embarrassing to' them now. I ask them to do one further thing, and that is to forget whatever it was that they learned at the London School of Economics, and to remember that they are here to represent the wishes and the aspirations of the people who sent them here—not what the people ought to want if they, too, had been to the London School of Economics, but what in fact they do want, as things are. We must consider this question of the approved societies, not only in the light of what is administratively convenient, not only in the light of what the friendly societies or the other approved societies want, but in the light of what the people themselves want. The Minister speaking yesterday rather implied that no great value was attached to home service. He did not think that every working-class home liked to have visitors, and on that hypothesis he said that the service which the Government was going to provide under this Bill is going to be primarily a postal service.

I said first that being a working man myself, I knew perfectly well that not every working-class family would like the home service, that I contemplated that the principal method would be through the post, but that at the same time we should make it flexible enough to provide a home service for those who need it.

The right hon. Gentleman certainly, said we would have a flexible service, but he said it would be, mainly, through the post. What I was going to put to him was that all the evidence that I have seen shows that the services which are performed by the officers of the friendly societies and the agents of the approved societies are tremendously valued by the people of this country, and in the homes of this country. Sir William Beveridge himself, for example, in his Report, described these agents and officials as being

The arguments, so far as I have been able to understand them, which are used against the approved societies fall into two main lines. There is the argument ad administrandum, the argument that for administrative convenience, tidiness and symmetry, you must do away with these agencies which have been used in the past. The other argument is that because some of these approved societies have an indirect and tenuous connection with profit-making institutions, therefore they are barred from the service of the State. I would like to say just one or two words about these arguments. I would not deny, and no one on these Benches would deny for a single moment, that it is essential to have a single comprehensive service. We would not deny that a single stamp and a single card are great and essential advantages. We do not deny that there must be a central registry, where all the information relating to any contributor is kept and sent. We do not deny any one of these things, but what is extremely difficult to understand is the relevance of these arguments to this particular issue. They seem to me to be irrelevant, because when we consider the provisions of the Bill they have no validity at all. What is the existing practice? It is true that we do not have a single comprehensive stamp to cover everything, but we do have under the National Health Insurance scheme, a stamp which covers more than one kind of benefit. And under the scheme as operated now, you find one part of the benefit being dealt with by a State agency, and another part by the approved societies. Therefore, I submit that there is really not very much, when you look at the existing practice, in the argument that a uniform comprehensive service makes essential the sweeping away of these private agencies.

But what of the future under this Bill as it is drafted now? As far as I can see, you have this single stamp, but the benefits are not going to be distributed by a single agency. Unemployment assistance will be distributed by the employment exchanges, pensions by the Post Office, and sickness benefit through these regional offices. In other words, the Minister does propose that under this scheme he should have a single, uniform service, with a single stamp and a single card, administered by a variety of agencies; and if you can do that under the Bill as it stands now, I do not see why he cannot alter the Bill so that we can bring in the existing system, which has worked so well in the past.

Let us consider for a moment the other argument, that it is wrong to make use of the industrial approved societies because they have this indirect connection with the profit motive. I think we have to get one thing clear in our minds. It is this—and I do not think anybody will deny it—that the industrial approved societies are not themselves profit-making concerns. They do not make profits. They are quite distinct as organisations from the insurance companies, and they do not themselves make profits. I cannot understand why the fact that the industrial assurance companies, which are separate organisations, make profit, makes it undesirable to use these agencies. I do not know what the profits of the industrial assurance companies are, but whatever they are, they do not add one penny to the Cost of the services which are rendered by the approved societies On the contrary, I think there is no doubt whatever that by having these agencies the cost to the State of this service, the cost to the taxpayer, is very much lower than it would be if these agencies did not exist, and if the services were administered by the regional offices to which the Minister referred in his speech yesterday.

The Prime Minister referred to a speech made by my hon Friend the Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson) last night. My hon. Friend, if he will allow me to say so, made an extremely interesting and thoughtful speech; and we all know what a deep interest he has taken in this subject and with what authority he speaks on it. But it does seem to me that my hon. Friend was slightly confusing two things. He was confusing the field of industrial assurance with the approved societies, which themselves, directly, have nothing whatever to do with industrial assurance. My hon. Friend told the House of a good many things that were wrong or had been wrong in the past with the business of industrial assurance. I think anybody who knows anything at all about the subject knows that there have been abuses connected with it, but my hon. Friend, if he will allow me to say so, did not tell the whole story. He did not explain what a very great deal the industrial companies themselves have done to get rid of these abuses. I can call Sir William Beveridge himself in evidence on that point, and he is certainly not a witness prejudiced in favour of the industrial assurance companies. He said in Appendix D of his Report that the insurance companies have done a good deal to put the situation right and that, in fact, they have done far more than they were required to do by Parliament.

I believe, myself, that it is a monstrous thing to traffic in death. I believe that the evils which used to exist have been very largely cleared up; but if they still exist I would suggest to my hon. Friend that the proper way of dealing with them is not in this Bill; that the proper way of dealing with these evils, if they exist, and to the extent to which they exist, is by introducing other legislation specifically for that purpose. On that point I should like to appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary, when he comes to reply, to give me some information on paragraph 136 of the Coalition White Paper of 1944. Paragraph 136 implies that there will be legislation on industrial assurance. It implies that the question of indirect expenses connected with funerals are to be examined, and I think the implication is that there will be legislation, or some agreement come to, on that. I should be glad if he would reply to that when he comes to that point.

I would make this appeal to the Minister on this question of the approved societies. Let him think not what the societies themselves want, or what is administratively convenient: let him think what it is that the people in the homes of this country want; and I believe that what they want is a continuation of the existing system modified to meet the new provisions of the Bill. The Minister yesterday said that he hoped these regional offices would become citizens advice bureaux, that people would far sooner go to them than have agents and officials of friendly societies come to their homes. I do not believe the Minister has any conception of the way in which Government Departments are regarded by the people of this country. They are not regarded, in my experience, as friendly, cosy institutions giving disinterested advice. They are regarded—

The party on this side of the House is not responsible for Government Departments now. But I think every hon. Member in this House knows how bitterly the people of this country resent what they regard as the pettifogging tyranny of Government Departments and controls at this time. That is an element in the British character; and it is an element which the Minister must recognise. I must say, looking at the Minister, he seems to be fairly adamant, but I would say that not better men than he but stronger men than he, possibly—have given way before on this very point. There was once a gentleman called Bismarck, who was an even earlier pioneer than the late Mr. Lloyd George in the field of compulsory State insurance. In 1878 or 1879, Bismarck introduced in Germany a great scheme of State insurance, and it was his idea that there should be a comprehensive administration of it, and that it should be administered through a vast Imperial department. In the event, Bismarck was compelled to withdraw his proposals, because the existing trading associations which had been dealing in this field were so hostile. I think we can derive some comfort from that. If the sheep-like Germans were able to assert themselves to that extent, the British people will certainly be able to get their way in the matter; and if the man of blood and iron failed to get his way, I do not think the men of lath and plaster will be able to do very much better.

The Prime Minister said that it would be a strange thing if we could not afford the benefits which are envisaged by this Bill. Certainly we on this side hope that we can afford them, but the only way we shall be able to afford them will be, as the Prime Minister indicated, if the people as a whole work hard for them. The party opposite have now succeeded to their inheritance. They have waited a long time for it and they have succeeded to it, but so far, the greatest practical contribution they have made 'in this field of social insurance, until they became the Government, has been the contribution of the auction room. Over a long period the party opposite have endeavoured to corrupt the electorate into the belief that the whole matter of electoral debate was confined to the issue of what benefits might be accorded from State funds. I know that does, not sound very agreeable to hon. Members opposite, but I believe it to be true. All of us value social security. We all believe it can be provided. But when we have got it I hope that we shall be able to take it in our stride. I agree with the Prime Minister in thinking that the kind of insecurity which has been known in this country in the past has not been an incentive to effort and enterprise. But now we are getting social security, and I hope that security will become less of an obsession than it has been over the past few years. I hope we shall be able to forget about insecurity and to turn our minds, not only in the House, but in the country, to the urgent and challenging task of repairing the ravages of war and of making this country of ours into what it used to be, and what it can be again—the greatest country in the world.

4.55 P.m.

I have been in the House for very many years and have heard much, but I have never felt more proud of my own Front Bench than I do after listening to the speeches that have been made in this Debate by right hon. Gentlemen opposite. I thought we were today rejoicing in the birth of something new, but the speech of the right hon. Member for South Kensington (Mr. Law) just delivered was more akin to a funeral oration. What has happened to the Tory Party is simple to understand. Not only were they defeated at the General Election; their spirit is dejected too. What is wrong with them is that they are paying gentle tributes to the Bill, but I am not so sure that they actually believe what they say about it. Incidentally, I would like to warn my right hon. Friend the Minister of National Insurance that often I have my doubts when all the Members of all parties speak well of a Measure. My right hon. Friend will understand what I mean and the Biblical quotation to which I refer.

I intervene in this Debate mainly because I have probably been as near as any hon. Member to social insurance since its inception. When the 1911 Health Insurance Act was passed, it was my lot to be called upon to establish an approved society connected with my own trade union, and incidentally, it proved very successful. Millions of ordinary people will thank Parliament for what it is doing today; multitudes will praise the Government for what they are trying to achieve. I speak with a fairly intimate knowledge of what is happening in the sphere of social insurance. To begin with, there is one sad section of the community which will benefit greatly from this scheme, but which is hardly even mentioned by any hon. Member. There are, on the average, about 350,000 people in these islands who are always practically bedridden; some of them disabled for 5, 10, 20, or even 30 long years. Were it not for our social insurance schemes, most of them would fall on to the Poor Law system.

I wish to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister of National Insurance on bringing in this Bill. I have lived long enough to have seen the first Measure of this kind put on the Statute Book. When I worked in the coalmines, there was no workman's compensation even, and when I lost the tip of one of my fingers there was no financial aid for me. I remember the first old age pensions scheme, the first health insurance scheme, and, of course, the first unemployment scheme as well. It is roughly 22 years ago, when I won the first place in the ballot and moved almost the first Private Members' Motion in this House in favour of widowed mothers' pensions; and I would like to remind the Tory Party that on that occasion every Tory in the House voted against my Motion—except Lady Astor. She voted with me, perhaps thinking she would need one herself some time; and if the world travels further to the Left, as it is now doing, that may unfortunately be the case. All these schemes have had their effect. If any hon. Member wants to know what has been the beneficial result of the social services, let him' go over to the London County Council Hall. I understand that the London County Council, at midnight every 12th February, used to take a census of the down-and-outs, the men, women and children without homes who were sleeping under the arches and on the Embankment. With the advent of our social services, nearly all of them have disappeared from the Embankment and from under the arches. That is an excellent tribute to our social services.

The argument is sometimes employed that State social services weaken friendly societies and trades unions. Strange as it may seem, the more compulsory contributions have been imposed on the people by the State the greater has become the membership of the trades unions and the friendly societies and the greater the increase in industrial insurance business, too. It is, as it were, an incentive for the people to do more for themselves than the State provides for them. The right hon. Gentleman opposite spoke of Bismarck who established national insurance in Germany. Bismarck did so in order to prevent the onward march of the Socialist Party; but the more social reform he gave the Germans the more the Socialist Party grew. That is exactly what has happened here, too. I hope that the next time the right hon. Gentleman speaks he will do better than he did today. It was the poorest effort I have ever heard him make. He did not know his book; he did not know what to say, and he failed to say even that very convincingly. We have the strangest anomaly of all, in that we have in my right hon. Friend the Minister of National Insurance, a Welshman who can make a better speech in a strange tongue than the right hon. Gentleman opposite did in his own.

Let me say what I think this Bill will achieve. We have travelled far during the last 50 years; I think that this may be very nearly the final attempt to lay down an economic foundation for human society through which no decent man or woman shall fall. I know very well that no matter how many stools we have pro- vided some always fall between them. If hon. Members do not mind my saying so—the right hon. Gentleman the Minister knows the humble little cottage where I was born and bred—I am the last of 11 children, and my mother died at the age of 34. I know what poverty means, and I have an idea what the Poor Law implies. I know what unemployment meant in 1898 when, for a long stretch of six months' strike there was nothing coming into the home. That is why I feel strongly on this matter. As the years roll on, I feel more deeply than ever that poverty should prevail, in this rich country, once the richest in the world. I strike a strange note when I say that what the leaders of the past have done to this little country in waging two great wars in a quarter of a century is to wound the spirit of our people and injure the economic structure of the nation beyond recovery for many years to come. That is what they have done. In comparison with the cost of those wars, however, we are now talking just in shillings and pence. For the first time in their history the Tory Party have not dared today ask, "From where is the money coming?" If you turn up the records every time any compassionate proposal of this kind has come before the House of Commons, they have chanted like a choir singing the Hallelujah chorus, "Where is the money coming from?" On this occasion, there is not a word about money; they know, for instance, that the people of this country are spending twice as much on strong drink as the total sum involved in this Measure. According to what I see being spent on pool betting, dog and horse racing, this Bill is only a fleabite by comparison. [An HON. MEMBER: "And smoking."] Smoking may irritate your tongue, but it does not upset your equilibrium like strong drink.

I am very proud that the Minister responsible for this Measure represents my own folk in the House of Commons; and I know he will not mind my turning to one or two points of criticism. Those of us who have been on the inside of social insurance know the snags, and there are always a few in the best conceived Measure. I think that one, which has been put to the right hon. Gentleman already, is: What will this Bill do for people over 70 who have never been contributors to national insurance? He knows that I am hopelessly biased about widows' pensions, and I would, therefore, put this other question: Is he quite satisfied about the position of the widow under 40? I represent a purely industrial constituency. Suppose a widow, without children, loses her husband when she is, say, 38 years of age? The Bill provides 13 weeks' benefits only for her and that she shall then be trained for some occupation. Let me remind the right hon. Gentleman that it does not matter what training she gets, for the average widow of that age in my constituency there is no occupation waiting for her except the washtub. I think that he might give some further consideration to that point. Let the House realise that this is the only Section within the whole of this Measure that is going to be worse off. Nearly everyone else is going to benefit except the widow under 40 years of age.

The argument in favour of abolishing approved societies has been that they do not pay equal benefits for equal contributions. It is a strange feature of our statistics however that on analyses those who appear to be drawing least from the present scheme are actually getting most; all approved societies in deficit are helped through the central fund from the unclaimed stamps account. Therefore, it is not right to argue that approved societies should be abolished, merely because they do not pay equal benefits for equal contributions. As to the rate of 26s. a week in this Bill, there is one thing that should appeal to all Members of Parliament alike. When we realise that £1 is only worth 8s. 4d. in comparison with 1913 values are we really making very much progress after all? I doubt it. Therefore, I hope, above all, that the cost of living will soon decline and that the benefits will in that event remain the same. I would like the Minister, whoever he may be in the future, to so arrange the benefits that they shall not follow the cost of living when it falls. Hon. Members will not mind my saying one other thing in passing. I am regarded as a critic of our institutions when I am at home, but when I am abroad I tell the foreigner what a splendid country this is. I am a greater patriot abroad than some of the Tories when at home. I have been proud to tell foreigners of our social insurance, because I have had a little part in it; but let me remind hon. Members that what we are doing today is not equal yet to what they have achieved in New Zealand. I am hoping that we shall follow that Dominion and establish an economic foundation of social security for all whether it be the self-employed or the wage-earner. Let me remind hon. Members too of problems which some of them know as well as I do, especially those who sit on local authorities, that it does not necessarily follow that a man who possesses £10,000 at 40 will own ten pence at 60.

We have been provided with the details of the Measure. Some of them I do not like at all. I do not care for imprisonment for offences connected with a scheme of this kind. In my view offences under the Bill ought to be confined to civil proceedings. I am proud of this plan not so much because I am a Socialist, but because I have witnessed in my own lifetime the broadening of sympathy amongst Members of all parties for those who from time to time meet with adversity; and I sit down saluting not only the names of Lloyd George, Keir Hardie, the Webbs, and others, but tens of thousands of ordinary folk who have advocated these reforms in the mines and workshops and other humble places. In the end, progress does not come from above; it comes from below. It is the common people themselves who are responsible for pressing this beneficent Measure upon the House of Commons at this stage in our national history.

5.12 p.m.

In rising to give my support to this Bill in principle I wish, for a moment, to draw attention to certain anomalies and weaknesses in it, which I feel must be eradicated if it is to be the complete success we all wish it to be. Speaking generally, I should like to say first that I deprecate one unpleasant aspect of the Bill in its present form. I refer to the amount of legislation which is left to regulation. Of the 79 Clauses and Schedules only a few require affirmative Resolutions in the House, and I emphasise this particularly having regard to the amount of work which is overburdening the Scrutiny Committee at this moment. One of the points I wish to bring forward is the question of the position of those who contribute volun- tarily to the various pensions and insurance schemes today. It is quite clear that, owing to the increase that there will be in contributions, a large number of these people will be unable to contribute to these voluntary schemes, and I suggest that, in the transitional period, it will be essential for the Government to make clear their intentions with regard to that matter, and see, if, in some way or another, they cannot adjust the position of those people during the transitional period.

May I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman whether he means State voluntary schemes or private insurance?

I mean private insurance schemes. People contributing to them will not be able to continue paying, and, if they have to stop their contributions, they may lose certain benefits to which they would otherwise be entitled. I feel that there must be an adjustment of some nature to tide them over the transitional period. I would also like some clarification on the question of supplementary pensions. I do not know whether this was mentioned or not, but do supplementary pensions continue as they are or are claims to be resubmitted, because if that is so it will entail a long delay before the claims are adjusted? I suggest that under those conditions there would be great hardship. I would also ask what is to be the fate of existing pension schemes of public bodies such as for teachers, police and so on. I admit that these are probably Committee points, but I hope that they will be brought up in Committee and clarified. I realise fully that Clause 55 is designed to cover some of these, but it is so vaguely worded that it is leading at this moment—I know this to be true because I have taken steps to find out—to great feeling in a large section of the community, among whom there is bewildering uncertainty as to what will happen.

I come now to the vexed question of the self-employed person and the 24 days. I am perfectly certain that the Minister of National Insurance and the Parliamentary Secretary are fully aware that there is a great feeling of disturbance in the country over this. I am aware of the various contentions which have been put forward in defence of this period of waiting. The chief one is, I believe, the question of abuse with regard to the medical certificate. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong in that respect, but I feel that it is wrong to correct one evil by the introduction of another. If that is the case, I suggest that this evil should be tackled at its source by a stringent regulation with regard to the issue of medical certificates. The period of waiting should be reduced to three days, or at the most a week. Further—if I may have the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary for a moment—I would suggest that there should be a question of rebate. If it is reasonable to have a rebate for the three days period, surely it is reasonable to suggest that there should be a rebate for the 24 days or for seven days, which is the period, I hope, to which it will be reduced. If it is right for the one I do not see that it cannot be right for the other. This does affect a large section of the small traders and shopkeepers of this country. I am fully aware that the Minister must by now realise through this Debate how very unpopular is that particular aspect of this Bill.

One word only in passing with regard to the friendly and approved societies. The case about them has already been fully argued by people who know more about them than I do, but I do feel with regard to the people who have worked in the past for the approved societies, people like typists, agents and thousands of men and women who have gained their livelihood in their service, that they should be given employment. Compensation is not the right answer as far as they are concerned. They should be used in this scheme, because after all they have experience of the work.

In conclusion, I wish to say that as far as contributions and benefits are concerned, I think the Government, in order possibly to be different, have slightly over-egged the pudding, if that is a tactful metaphor to use at this juncture. They have raised the contributions and that is going to be a severe burden as it stands at the moment on a very large section of the community. Therefore I suggest it is essential for the Government to make two points abundantly clear to the nation by propaganda, by advertisement and by any other means within their power. The first is that this is not a new form of taxation. It is alarming how many people think it is. You will find a large number of ordinary men and women who see in this scheme another form of P.A.Y.E. Secondly, it should be made clear that it is a fundamental principle of the Bill that wages are not increased in order to offset the increased contribution, because if that does happen it will merely react on the consumers by increased costs and the vicious circle will start again, with the result that the extra benefits will be nullified by the increased cost of living. One last word. When this Bill has become law I hope it will be administered humanely, and that once and for all the idea will be eradicated from the minds of the people in this country that the junior Government official is there to act as an obstacle between the citizen and his rights. I do not say that in any partisan spirit at all, but until that idea is eradicated by a humanitarian approach we shall never get contentment in this country. I wish this long overdue Bill all the success it deserves.

5.22 p.m.

I rise to make my first effort in this worthy assembly, and I crave the indulgence which, I know, has been shown to so many of my hon. Friends. In doing so, I first want to compliment my right hon. Friend on the splendid job he has done, and also my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, who initiated the fundamental principles of the Measure we are considering today. I do not suggest that this Bill is perfect. I can tell by the attitude of the Opposition up to now, that they have exactly the same point of view, but in all my experience I have yet to find that the Opposition, when in power, could produce anything so perfect for the working classes as this Bill. This Measure should be studied very carefully by the community, because it is a landmark on the hard road to decent conditions for our citizens. As stated in the pamphlet, "Let's Face the Future," my Party has played a big part in the long campaign for proper social security for all, for provision against rainy days. That is coupled with an economic policy which is calculated to reduce those rainy days to a minimum. For every man, woman and child in this country this Bill has a particular significance. Simply, it means this: that in time of sickness and sorrow, hardship and distress, childbirth and death, our people will be shielded, at long last, from the blitz of poverty. Never in the history of social reform, has there been such good value for money, and the Government are to be congratulated on the contents of this Bill.

Yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler) said that the first effort ever made to deal with poverty was about the year 1600. Ever since then, he said, further efforts had been made to build on that foundation. Well, if my experience of poverty and misery in County Durham means anything, that foundation was very unsound. The right hon. Gentleman said that the original law was introduced to deal with economic distress and economic revolution resulting from historical causes, such as the Reformation. My reading of history does not coincide with that point of view. One of the earliest attempts to bring in social insurance was in 1755, by miners employed by the London Quaker Lead Company, or the Society of Friends, and it was based on regular subscriptions. There were benefits in that year for ill-health, accidents and death, and rules for reasonable conduct in order to obtain benefit were also laid down. Arising from this working-class attempt, in Cumberland, to bring social insurance into being, a man named Curwen, who was a Cumberland colliery owner, formed an association of employees in 1816. Mr. Curwen proposed a universal scheme as a substitute for the Poor Law that was in existence at that time. I have not been able to find out what progress he made, but the society of Alston miners, in which the London Lead Company took such a great interest, especially financially, was active in the latter part of the 18th century.

As a body of working men, it was not long before they discovered the necessity for employing their own medical officers. They knew they could not have a sound social insurance scheme unless they had medical supervision, and so they laid down explicit rules to deal with the care of the sick, personal visits, and the like, such as are outlined in this Bill. In 1834, each man had to pay 30s. a year to this general fund and he received from it, during sickness or inability to work, 8s. a week for six weeks, and then 6s. a week so long as he needed it, and remained incapable of following his em- ployment. At 65 he was allowed 5s. a week for the rest of his life. In addition to that, an arrangement was made whereby medical assistance was guaranteed not only to the man who was incapacitated as a result of an accident, but also to the rest of his family. These men were the pioneers of the Bill on which we have the honour to deliberate at the present time, although I cannot forget the name of our respected friend, Keir Hardie, or a pioneer in my own county, Mr. Peter Lee, a champion of the depressed working-classes for a generation.

As an ex-Service man, and one who has had rich experience of public administration in the county of Durham, I believe that if a Government of this kind had been in office just after the 1914–18 war this country would not be in such a perplexed state as it is in now. When we came back from that war, we were promised "a land fit for heroes to live in" and "9d. for 4d." by a man, who it was claimed, was the originator of National Health Insurance. We had not been long back from the fighting before we discovered that it would be a tough job to live. I was an ex-checkweighman. We discovered that we would have to be very busy indeed if we wanted to maintain our standard of life. The first real struggle took place in 1921, when men were refused unemployment benefit in a shameful way. That struggle led to the removal of the democratically elected guardians in Chester-le-Street, County Durham. Following that 1921 stoppage in Durham, we had the ridiculous position of men with grey hairs being unwanted when they went to a pit to get a job. And then began the pernicious system, laid down by the Government of that day, of "genuinely seeking work." Everyone who lived in that part of the country knew perfectly well that the work could not possibly be found. As a consequence, thousands were thrown on to the backs of the ratepayers. In the county I come from old people went to premature graves rather than humble themselves by going to the Poor Law.

According to HANSARD the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden yesterday suggested that there was a case for helping the old people on a subsistence basis, but that some of the old folk have had their lives in which to pile up their little bit. Let me say quite frankly that the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden should come to County Durham and try to put that sort of stuff across. In defence of the old people I would say this. They are keen, canny, thrifty folk, and their idea in those days was to get a couple of hundred pounds into the co-operative bank against the day when they might become unwanted or could no longer work. I say emphatically that every citizen worthy of the name, rather than humiliate himself by going to the Poor Law, existed on that money and finally had to do one of two things, either go, against his will, to the Poor Law or, as I have said before, pass out to a premature grave.

The House knows that the rate position in County Durham as a result of that system, which will not be repeated under the present Bill, takes us to certain weeks and certain years in County Durham where higher rates became the order of the day. For the week ended 7th March, we discover these official figures issued by the Durham County Council—10,855 able-bodied persons receiving relief plus 53,426 others, a total of nearly 65,000 receiving public assistance. This resulted, of course, in a terrific rate increase second to none, I think, in this country. As a matter of fact, the Durham poor rate soared to 9s. 4d. The average rate level for the whole of the county councils in England was 2s. 6d., whereas the Durham public assistance committee and county council rate was 6s. 10d. in the £ above the national average as the result of the stupidity emanating from the Opposition during the two wars. Over and above that, the same Durham County Council paid compensation cases either partial or full to 206 men on an average every week and so small was the sum of money paid in compensation that they had to go to the public assistance committee to have it augmented. I wish to say emphatically that those unhappy days, at least so far as our county is concerned, are finished.

Now, a word or two about the Bill itself. I said it was not perfect, and without pulling one single punch, I say I stand for £3 a week old age pension for the old couple. If the Labour Government in New Zealand, with a limited population, but the desire to do the job, could pay £3 to the old folk years ago, and are now paying them £3 5s., I see no valid reason why we should not do the same. This does not mean that I wish to be thought ultra-critical of ray old friend the Minister. I hope that, on quinquennial valuation, it may be found, despite fears on the other side of the House, that the time will come when the old folks' present standard can be raised. So far as concerns the period of 24 days without benefit in the case of the self-employed contributor, I am certainly of the opinion that this is too harsh, and that one of two things should happen. Either the contribution should be increased or the period reduced.

On the administrative side, I say without hesitation that the Minister has a tough task in front of him. What he has to do is to train his staff to do the job and, knowing him as I do, I am convinced he will make a success of it. Finally, I maintain that this Bill will put more money into the pockets of the workers. The workers of this country can produce more food for the pantries, coal for the grates, and houses, for the people. In a word, they can expand production. An obligation rests on every worker in this land. They can either handicap this national insurance scheme or they can help it substantially. I believe that the people will not let the Government down.

5.39 p.m.

I am sure the House will wish to welcome the hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Lavers) to the freedom of this House, which no new Member feels he has really won until he has passed through the ordeal of a maiden speech. As the hon. Member told us, he has brought to this Debate his experience, in his own county of Durham, of the evils with which this Bill is designed to deal. He has also presented us with the fruits of recondite historical research, and I wish to express due appreciation of each of these contributions.

I propose this evening to speak on only one aspect of the Bill, but it is an important aspect, namely, the position of the friendly societies. I think the Minister and the Government must have been very deeply impressed by the series of speeches which has been made on this subject. They came from some of the most respected Members of the House and from every single Party in the House. To mention only a few of them, there were the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), the right hon. Member for South Kensington (Mr. Law), the hon. Member for Denbigh (Sir H. Morris-Jones), the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marlowe), the hon. Member for North Hackney (Mr. Goodrich), and the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Watkins), and I could add others to the list.

Those who have spoken on this subject have pointed out that to exclude friendly societies, as they are now being excluded from the Bill, involves a very serious breach of a pledge given by Labour candidates at the last Election. They have pointed out that it means very great disappointment for some 8,000,000 people who are members of friendly societies, and great hardship and great problems respecting the officials of those societies. I do not, however, now desire to repeat the arguments that have been made along those lines. I think it is true to say that the Minister cannot afford to disregard those considerations. But I feel even more strongly that he cannot afford, in dealing with the task that lies ahead of him, to dispense with the enormously valuable assistance, with the personal experience and traditions, of those voluntary societies.

If I have any claim to take the time of the House on this subject it comes from the fact that I am one of some half-dozen officials who were working at the Treasury when the first Health Insurance Bill was going through this House in 1911. I was then private Secretary to the Minister in charge of the Bill and when the administration was being constructed in 1912 I was head of the Approved Societies branch. I, therefore, know something of the difficulties which the Minister has in mind. I was directly responsible for examining the revision of the rules of the approved societies and their branches to adapt them to State insurance. At that time there were something like 20,000 of such societies and branches as administrative units of health insurance under the State scheme. It was my duty, too, to see representatives of every type and class of society day by day. I well know the difficulty, from the point of view of the civil servant, of dealing with a great number of societies of very different types and kinds. I knew what it was to draft a circular which would be equally applicable and equally intelligible to a great centralised society like the Hearts of Oak and to a little village society run by the village blacksmith.

I remember one rather ingenious technique we adopted. We appointed one of our number as a kind of editor of all circulars going out to approved societies of every kind. We told him that, if there was anything in any circular coming from any branch that was not immediately intelligible to him, he was to refer the circular back to the branch to see that it was made quite clear. We did not tell the official selected for that post that one of the principal qualifications he possessed for it was that he was not among the quickest witted members of the staff. I well know from that experience the character of the difficulties that the Minister has in mind.

But I remember other things, too. This experience gave me a picture which I shall never forget, of what local, voluntary, benevolent, enterprise meant, and means, in the social life of this country. It was a microcosm of the social life 01 working classes of the country. I learnt to realise how much the whole of the system of Government in this country has gained from the fact that it has grown up to so large an extent from local, voluntary effort, and how much we shall lose if, now that we are to have a wide extension of State action, that State action is to be superimposed from above and is cut off from its local and voluntary roots.

I do not think that the Minister can afford to lose the great resources of skill and experience which the officials of the voluntary societies have in constructing the administration for the new sickness benefit. That form of benefit is, of all forms of insurance, incomparably the most difficult. The crux of any form of insurance is proof that the disaster insured against has in fact occurred. In life assurance, you have the visible corpse. In fire insurance you have the gutted house. In shipping insurance, you have either the wrecked ship or the disappearance of what is the most difficult thing in the world to hide. But how different it is when we come to sickness insurance?

There is a man or a woman, above all the married woman who has alternative useful things to do at home, who is admittedly of rather sub-normal health. The question is whether he or she is just well enough or not quite well enough to work in the factory. That is infinitely more difficult to decide. The crux of health insurance is the malingerer, not necessarily the deliberately dishonest person, but possibly the self-pitying type, who begins to feel a little more unwell directly he begins to think about himself. It is no use thinking that one can deal with this difficulty automatically and satisfactorily by the use of a medical certificate. Medical certificates you must have, but if you can have more, if you can have what the friendly societies have, personal knowledge and intimacy with the claimants and the collective social influence of those to whom the claimant is personally known, that is something better than any other form of secondary check or control.

I fully realise that that system cannot in any case be applied to the whole or even to the majority of the insured persons with whom the Minister has to deal. He is bound to construct a state system in which sickness benefits will be administered for very many through State employees. But the friendly societies have a membership of more than 8,000,000 people, and this, though not a majority, is a very substantial proportion of the total. If the Minister could relieve his burden to that extent, I think he would do well to do so. It would reduce the effort involved in building up a great enough State service. I suggest, too, that while he is building up that service it will be an advantage that there should also be in existence a voluntary system which maintains voluntary traditions and standards and which, apart from what it does directly, will influence for good the new State service itself.

For all these reasons I do hope that he will once more try to see whether he cannot make use of the friendly societies. I do not, of course, suggest, any more than the societies or Sir William Beveridge do, that we should retain the present approved society system set up under the original Act; I fully realise that it is not possible now to have approved societies with separate finances and fluctuating rates of benefit payable out of the State funds. What we are asking is only that they should be used as agents of the State for the administration of this scheme as regards their members. That, I believe, is a perfectly reasonable and practicable thing.

The Minister said yesterday that he does not see how any such scheme can be adopted without running into the trouble of duplication. But there is only one way in which the Minister himself can avoid duplication under his, own system; that is, by killing the voluntary societies altogether, and putting an end to voluntary sickness benefit out of voluntary contributions for those who desire, in addition to their health benefit, to make further provision for themselves. For if you grant that the voluntary societies are to administer additional voluntary sickness benefit, paid for by voluntary contributions by their members, then there must be duplication of a kind. We have to choose between two kinds of duplication.

On that assumption, this is the choice. You may say that a member of a voluntary society shall take only his voluntary sickness benefit from his own society, while he takes his State sickness benefit from the State official. Or you may say, as I would say, that he shall take his sickness benefit, whether voluntary or State, from his own society, and then go to the State official for other forms of benefit, such as an old age pension. It is obvious which is the more convenient for a member of a friendly society. When he is ill, as he may be at any time in his life, it is clearly better that he should get both his voluntary and his State sickness benefit from the same source, on the same medical certificate and subject to the same control by visit or inquiry. It does not matter that, at some later time, he may have to go elsewhere for a different kind of benefit altogether, in case of unemployment or on reaching old age. Unless friendly societies and voluntary sickness insurance are to be killed, the Minister can only choose, for the members of the societies, between these two methods.

The objection raised to what the friendly societies want comes not so much from considerations of Ministerial policy as from the administrative convenience in which a Minister naturally consults his officials. I assume they have advised him there are difficulties, as there are. But if this is the basis of the objection, I suggest that the opinion of old officials like Sir W. Beveridge, and perhaps I may add myself, that these difficulties are not insuperable is entitled to some respect. For we may perhaps claim to have had the most relevant official experience under the original Act. Under the twin Acts, for Unemployment and for Health Insurance, in 1911, Sir William was the official who constructed the employment exchanges and I was concerned with the approved societies, and we agree on this point.

The Minister knows, and the House knows, the precise proposals made by Sir William Beveridge and agreed by the approved societies, as to the conditions under which friendly societies should be allowed to participate. I hope that the Minister will be able to reconsider our request, if not absolutely, perhaps for an experimental period such as Sir William Beveridge has just suggested. But I have one even more modest alternative suggestion to make, if he should find that both of these two are impossible. I can imagine that he may perhaps say that under the statutory conditions which the friendly societies propose, he may find himself legally bound to use certain societies, or societies in certain conditions, which as he goes on with the development of the administration he may find practically impossible, and that he cannot therefore be bound by a statutory obligation of that kind. But if that is his objection, may I suggest that he should at least introduce, at the Committee stage of this Bill, an optional, permissive Clause which would enable him if in so far as he finds it desirable during this next year, to make use of the friendly societies? As he told us yesterday, he is in any case contemplating a consultation with the approved societies during this next year to make the transition arrangements.

If he can do no more, I would ask him at least to give himself facilities by an optional Clause under Part III of this Bill, to arrange then to incorporate the best friendly societies as agents under the State scheme under conditions to be negotiated with those societies.

Let me remind him of the man advantages of doing this. In the first place, he would avoid the rather serious position in regard to the electoral pledge. He would avoid the very great disappointment of a considerable number of mem- bers of assured societies. He would avoid very great hardship to the officials of the societies, and reduce the very considerable problem, which he has set himself, of dealing with those officials. Incidentally, let me say that the provision he is making to transfer to the State service or to compensate the officials of the friendly societies, is a pretty clear indication that the Minister knows in his own mind that the effect of the Bill as it stands, will be very largely to kill the voluntary societies and voluntary insurance, with all that that implies.

If he will do what I suggest, he will avoid striking this grievous if not mortal blow at a very important part of the voluntary effort and public spirit of this country. Lastly, he will, by retaining these organisations and keeping alive their traditions during the period in which he is building up his administration of the most difficult of all forms of insurance, be maintaining a useful tradition, setting a useful example, and maintaining a great standard and, in so doing, not only reduce the tasks of the new State organisation, but keep alive an influence which will improve its character and quality as he builds it up. I suggest that, as against those great advantages, the trouble which will undoubtedly be involved in having to put his mind once more to this delicate and intricate negotiation, will be a relatively small price to pay.

6.1 p.m.

In rising to address the House for the first time, if I feel any trepidation—and I certainly do—I am fortified by the knowledge that the House is generous in conceding indulgence to Members on these occasions. It would be ungracious not to concede to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of National Insurance and to the Government, every praise for introducing this Measure so soon after the White Paper. This scheme is long overdue and it will go far towards eliminating that dread and fear of insecurity which has tortured the minds of the people of this country for so long. There are those who argue that there is a place for thrift, and I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler) touched on this point yesterday. However, I would remind the House that wages have been based—and in fact it has been wages policy for many years—on a subsistence and a fodder basis.

In evidence of that statement, might I call the attention of the House to wages in the agricultural industry—and I represent an agricultural constituency. In 1914 the wages of an agricultural labourer were less than 20s. per week, and notwithstanding the improvements which took place between the end of the first world war and 1939 their wages at the beginning of the war were no more than 35s. per week and, in fact, the general wage levels in the heavy industries were round about 50s. per week. These wages did not allow of individual provision against the contingencies of sickness and old age. It is to the credit of the trade unions and the friendly societies that they, by their voluntary schemes, supplemented the National Health Insurance scheme and other schemes, though, if I may say so, that may have delayed this great scheme being put into operation. Had it not been for the work which has been done by the trade unions in friendly benefits, such a scheme as this would, in my opinion, have been necessary and would have been introduced long before now.

There is one aspect of the contribution side which I wish particularly to bring to the attention of the Minister. I do not know the exact figures, but I can say that something like 1,500,000 to 2,000,000 public employees are superannuated under the Local Government Superannuation Acts and similar Acts, and if we base the present rate of wages at, say, 90s. per week, that is a stoppage now out of wages of 4s. 6d. These men are confronted with a further deduction in respect of this scheme with the addition, for national injuries insurance and the addition which is to be placed on the contribution in five years, of a further 5s. 3d., which gives a total of 9s. 9d. per week. This is a very serious matter, and I hope the Minister will take note of this and consult with the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health in order that they may consult with the trade unions, so that there can be some accommodation with regard to this total deduction.

Now I wish to refer to what I consider to be one of the most depressing assumptions contained in the Actuary's Report. We are being informed from the Front Bench that it is essential to the success of this scheme that there should be full employment and full production. According to the Actuary's Report the notional basis for unemployment at any time is to be 8½ per cent. If we accept the total insured population which is envisaged for 1948 as 18,000,000, that means a total unemployed figure of 1,600,000. I do not know what the House may think, but I think this is very far away from full employment, and I am unable to reconcile this notional basis which has been adopted with the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade last Saturday when he said that for many years we shall be critically short of labour and, in discussing the allocation of labour to the various industries asked, "Where is the extra labour coming from?" Therefore, as I say, I am unable to reconcile the statement in the Actuary's Report with the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, and I can only hope that the prognostications of the Actuary are ill-founded or that, at any rate, the Government will see that the total of unemployed is reduced below 8½ per cent.

As regards the self-employed—Class (ii)—I have had very strong representations from my constituency in respect of the restriction under which these insured persons are not to be paid sickness benefit for 24 days. In the White Paper we are informed that it is estimated that there will be about 2½ million persons in this class and the White Paper says that no doubt the great majority of them will be in an economic position little, if any, different from that of the majority in Class (i). Thait suggests to me that it is essential that these 2½ millions, or a substantial proportion of them, should be covered for sickness benefit not after 24 days, when the incidence of sickness in most cases is past, but after the first three, or, at any rate after six days.

I think it is wrong that this large number of insured persons should be virtually debarred from sickness benefit, because those who have had anything to do with sick funds know very well that the greatest incidence of sickness is over a period of two or three weeks, and it is the exception rather than the rule if extended sickness takes place. I hope the right hon. Gentleman and the Government will consider this restriction. Clause 33 of the Bill provides that where the employer has failed to pay any contri- butions which have been deducted from the insured, the insured shall have the right of recovery in a civil court. I should have thought that the employer, being the legal agent of the State in the deduction of contributions, should have the onus put upon him and that it should not be for the employee to chase the employer for his benefit. I am not a lawyer, but I should say that that is an axiom of British law. In my opinion, it is the State's duty to see that the insured is covered for benefit and it is for the State to sue the employer in these cases of default. I am satisfied that if there is full co-operation to make this Bill work, it will succeed. I go further and say it must succeed.

6.14 p.m.

It seems to me presumptuous, for one whose maiden speech is so close behind him, to be in a position to offer congratulations to another who has so successfully got over that first difficult hurdle tonight. The hon. Member for Brigg (Mr. Williamson), with his clear and concise knowledge of the subject he has been treating and which this House is considering, and, in particular, in that part of the speech which treated the self-employed man's waiting period for sickness benefit, will find a great measure of support from these benches.

I regret that I cannot carry my congratulations further back to the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies). There it was a very different matter. With an air of geniality and benevolence, and with great vigour, he led us back in history over a number of benevolent Measures which have been produced in Parliament—Workmen's Compensation Acts and Widows' and Old Age Pensions Measures. Am I entitled to ask him, to what Government this country is indebted for those Measures? Was there a single Socialist Government responsible for any of them? I know it is fashionable for hon. Members opposite to say that these Measures would never, in fact, have been introduced except through pressure from behind. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad to hear that hon. Members opposite are cheering, because I am going to ask them to be consistent. After all, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Are they going out to their constituencies to present the Measure we are all approving today and to say it was really the minority Opposition and their Measure introduced in previous Parliaments, which is responsible for this Bill? I do not suppose they will carry logic as far as that.

The hon. Member for Westhoughton observed that this was the first occasion in his Parliamentary experience when there has not proceeded from these benches the comment and remark, "Where is the money coming from?" If the Government have not considered where the money is coming from in connection with this and any other Measure, they are guilty of criminal negligence. [An HON. MEMBER: "Cheer up."] I ask the Minister and the House to give attention to a small section of the community, comprising some 500 individuals in Scotland, and figures in proportion for England, probably some 5,000. Although these are relatively small figures they represent a body of officials with a long and honourable pedigree. They are, in fact, the social welfare officers administering local authority assistance. Back in Elizabethan days, their ancestors were already carrying out similar duties and functions and, as we have had the poor continually with us from those days until today, so these benevolent officials have continued carrying out their duties. Now it is happily claimed that under this Bill the poor will be greatly reduced, if not eliminated, and, naturally enough, these officials ask, "What is to become of us?" They wish to continue their usefulness and to give the benefit of their experience and skill to the country. "Is there any room for us," they ask, "if, in fact, the transfer of functions from local authorities to the shoulders of national authorities is going to remove most of our work?" They have calculated that initially some 25 per cent of their duties will be transferred, rising ultimately, under this Bill, to a final figure of 70 per cent. Consequently, they argue, logically enough, that initially 25 per cent., and ultimately 70 per cent. of them, may find themselves out of a job.

What are the duties that are being transferred? In normal times they are the administration of assistance given by local authorities both financial and medical, the care of the blind, of orphan children, and during the war a great many other similar duties imposed by the war, have, in fact, been shouldered by them. I understand their duties in Scotland are wider spread and more multifarious than in England, but in the main they are similar, including billeting, refugee children, and assistance to the Women's Voluntary Service. What a gamut of good deeds! Are these officials not entitled to be considered the fairy godfathers of all lame dogs? Under this Bill their duties are to be transferred to a national organisation. Surely, it is only logical that these officials with their wealth of experience, of skill and of the human touch should also be transferred and the benefit of all that experience carried on without interference.

There are plenty of precedents for the transfer of officials with the transfer of duties. It was provided for in the Rating Act of 1926, in the Local Government Act of 1929 and in the Education Act of 1944. So they have made application to the Ministry of Labour that they, in fact, be incorporated and included in the skeleton framework which is being set up to administer this Act. What has been their fate? They have been informed that, although recruiting has been opened to every branch of the Civil Service, there is no place for them. By what distorted process of thought can it be imagined that a postman, let us say, to whom recruitment is available, could possibly do this work as economically, and as efficiently, and with that human touch to which the Minister and other speakers have referred in the same way, as these men and women who have given their lives in this work could do it? They ask that they be so transferred and that the Bill make provision for them. The Bill, in Clause 66, has made a similar provision for officials of friendly societies. They say, "Why should we be treated in any way differently?"

They have another suggestion to make. They are not without strings to their bow. They say that in certain counties in Scotland, at any rate, many of the assistance boards have made use of their services rather than set up a complicated and expensive organisation of their own. They suggest that this system be extended to other counties, and perhaps to England. That would absorb some of their services and would economically and efficiently carry out the work which is required. I realise it cannot be made universal; it can only apply to certain districts. Finally, if this be refused to them, what is the third string to their bow? They say it is with reluctance that they would pluck that string; but if the rest fail them then they ask for financial compensation.

If these men and women are not to be employed in that way, or are not to get financial compensation, where are they to find employment? It is one of the great criticisms, perhaps one of the great evils, of State monopoly that there is only one employer. They have absolutely no other market to which to go except to the State, and if the State closes the doors to these men and women, who only ask to go on and to continue to live their life of usefulness for the community, then what is to become of them? Injustice is no less unjust because it falls upon a few shoulders; a grievance is no less grievous because it hurts only a few. Economic efficiency and elementary justice alike demand that this matter be given attention by the Minister.

6.25 p.m.

I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Central Glasgow (Colonel Hutchison) will forgive me if I do not follow him into the small point of machinery which he has raised. I cannot help thinking that in the course of this historic Debate, too much time has been devoted to pure questions of machinery which will be dealt with adequately in Committee, anyhow. If I make any reference to it at all, it will be only to appeal to my right hon. Friend to stick to his guns in the matter of the friendly societies. One of the most welcome things in the machinery aspect of this Bill is that we do at least make an end of that system which allowed approved societies and friendly societies to select all the best risks and to refuse entry into their ranks of the bad ones, who had to fend for themselves elsewhere and many of whom were left outside the scheme. I hope my right hon. Friend will not allow himself to be intimidated by the great volume of pressure which is being brought upon him. If there were people who were foolish enough to promise their constituents to fight for bad things, I would point out they do far more harm doing that than explaining to their constituents that they made a mistake.

On this historic occasion, for historic occasion it is, I would like to congratulate the Government and my right hon. Friend on the introduction of this Measure. I would like to congratulate him also on the speed with which he was able to place a Bill of this kind before this House so early in the lifetime of this Parliament and so early in the Session. I have had my own quarrels with him about these matters, and I have one very serious quarrel with him tonight, but I do hope he will bear in mind that, when we make these criticisms and have these quarrels, we do it in good faith and in all sincerity, and with the desire, which I know he shares with us, and which we share with him, to make this first adventure in comprehensive social security as complete and as equitable as we would all like it to be.

I am a little puzzled to understand what the attitude of the Opposition is to this Bill. I have listened to nearly all the speeches that have been made and certainly to both the speeches that have been made from the Opposition Front Benches. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) certainly could not make up his mind as to what he wanted to do with it. I cannot help sympathising with him. The hon Gentlemen opposite are in the same difficulty here as they have been since the beginning of this Parliament. They want to be an Opposition, they want to oppose, and at the same time what the Government are doing commands so much general support outside, and is so obviously right in itself, that they have not the courage to oppose it either inside the House or outside, so the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden put himself in the position of being willing to wound but afraid to strike.

When he had criticisms or suggestions he put them—as people have always done when in that position: tives, he said quite clearly that he was not. The net result of his speech was to

He accused my right hon. Friend and hon. Members on this side of the House of being old men living in the past, living in the 1890's, and doing today, in 1946, what they advocated in 1890. He said that the party to which he belonged had a better record of social service than any other party in the State. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I understand that hon. and right hon. Members still on the Front Opposition Bench agree to that statement. The fact that, in 1946, we are beginning to get what we advocated in 1890 is the most ironic commentary on that claim and on what they have been doing in those intervening 50 years. In fact, the Tory record in regard to social security and social service is lamentable. It is quite true that, in the second half of the 19th century, in revenge upon the Whigs for the repeal of the Corn Laws, they indulged in some legislation which brought some benefit.

Does the hon. Gentleman really refer to the work of Lord Shaftesbury and other reformers in these contemptuous terms? If so, I do not think he will find either this House or the country with him.

I did not hear the last sentence, but the work of Lord Shaftesbury was a very good thing. It was the very last thing that the Tory Party ever did in social reform, and they are still trying to live on the credit of it. Their record between the wars is a record of misery, privation, tragedy and social frustration of the gravest kind. If we had had a measure of social security in 1890 what a difference it would have made to the life of this country. What a difference it would have made to the whole history of civilisation if this country and all other European countries had done, in 1890, what we are seeking to do today.

Many speakers in this Debate have set this Bill against the background of pre- vious social legislation and reform, and they were right to do so. I would like to set it against another background, and that is the background of the other legislation for which this Government have been responsible in the last six months. The achievement of social security must be the achievement of the guarantee by the community of a minimum national subsistence level in all circumstances and against all chances and economic changes and hazards. Unless the community take full charge and full control of its resources, the mere guarantee of a weekly monetary minimum would take us no distance at all along the road to real security. Had it not been for the ration-ing of commodities in short supply, the control of prices, the control of material resources, the control of finance, the serious and sincere endeavour to get a planned economic and industrial society into which social security had to be fitted, this subsistence monetary level would indeed have been a meaningless symbol. A guaranteed monetary minimum in a social and economic framework handed over to free enterprise, and the inevitable inflation in which that would have resulted in present conditions, would have made a mockery of the whole plan and idea. I think it would be wrong to take part in the Debate without paying tribute to that advance which this Measure represents, and without congratulating the Government upon doing it so quickly and so well.

I come now to what is, I cannot help feeling, a grave and fundamental error in principle in the proposals in this Bill It is true, in a sense, that this, too, is a matter than can be dealt with in Committee, and I hope—indeed, I am sure—that it will be discussed in Committee. But it is also a point which goes to the root of the whole idea of social security. We are doing much in the way of family allowances and for the children; we are doing much for the old people. I would like, in passing to say that I do not myself see how the Minister could have done more for the old people than he has done in this Bill. I do not mean that it represents finality, but we do not expect finality at the beginning of Socialist legislation. We hope to improve and do better, but at this stage, I do not think my right hon. Friend could have done better than he has done. I thought some months ago he might have done some- thing on a temporary, provisional basis, to tide the old people over this winter until this scheme could come into operation. I still think he might have done it, and I still wish he had, and, when I remember the reasons given about amending Acts of Parliament, I look at the many pages of Schedules to this Bill and see how many Acts are repealed and how many others are amended. I am not complaining that my right hon. Friend does it all in one Bill—I am reminding him that I told him months ago that he could do it in one Bill, and I congratulate him upon his conversion.

But what was the most haunting fear in the minds of the working class in this country between the wars? What was the thing that caused the most misery? What was the thing, if I might quote the Minister's own words, that most "corroded the souls of the workers" in our chief industries, as in his own? It was unemployment—not temporary unemployment, not casual unemployment, not unemployment that lasted a week or two or a month or two, not unemployment that was recurrent, divided between periods of work, but unemployment that affected large masses of people at the same time and affected them for years. It is said that this is not an insurable thing, because it is not casual and is not one of the changes and chances of normal economic living, but represents a complete breakdown in the social and industrial structure of our country. Of course, it is, and it was just that breakdown that caused the worst privation, misery and suffering during all the years when the Tories and their allies were in control of our affairs between the wars. We promised, at the General Election in July, that that would never happen again, that we would see to it that, in this matter of unemployment, the loss would not lie, or be allowed to lie, where it fell, that the loss would be borne by the community as a whole. We conceded in our propaganda—and which one of us would not concede it now?—the principle that the business of the community was either to afford to every member of it the opportunity to render useful service at his job, or to maintain him if we failed to provide him with that opportunity, for any cause. How can we have a system of social security unless the danger of unemployment, for which the man himself is not responsible, is covered by that insurance scheme? I need not argue that with my right hon. Friend or anybody on this side of the House. There is nothing that we have been more unanimous or clear about in our propaganda to the country. It is the whole basis of our appeal, and the whole ground upon which we hope to base the building of a new society.

Under this Bill, after 180 days of unemployment—which need not be continuous unemployment; it can be divided by any number of periods, provided not one of them lasts more than 13 weeks—an unemployed person has no rights at all. He is completely uncovered, completely outside the scheme. He ceases to be insured, to have any benefits from the insurance fund, or to have any claim as a right against anybody. He is put right back, so far as this Bill is concerned, and, with one exception to which I will come in a moment, on to the Poor Law. In those circumstances, unemployment, if it lasts beyond this period, makes the unemployed person a pauper once again—without rights and without assistance. I am not overlooking Clause 61, but what does that Clause provide? It provides that: regulations are to provide. They may provide for a generous measure of treatment, or not, but, at any rate, the local tribunal is to have regard to any such general direction.

Then it is to have regard to something else, something which the Minister cannot deal with by regulation, something which is statutory, which is in the Clause itself, and something against which the Minister cannot regulate. His regulations cannot be in conflict with it. If he were to make regulations in conflict with it, those regulations would be ultra vires, and would have no legal authority. What is that thing about which he can do nothing and in regard to which he is tying himself up inexorably by Statute so that he cannot escape from it even if he wished to?

I heard my right hon. Friend yesterday deny, in clear, express, specific terms that it was ever again intended to apply any means test to any unemployment benefit. When he says that is his intention and the intention of the Government never to apply such a test I know he means what he says, and I accept that. Nevertheless, let me tell him, clearly and specifically, that the "particular circumstances of the applicant" to which the tribunal must have regard mean a means test, and cannot mean anything else. My right hon. Friend shakes his head. What, then, are "the particular circumstances of the applicant"? Suppose John Smith appears before a local tribunal and says, "I was insured. I was entitled to unemployment benefit. I received unemployment benefit; I received it for 180 days, but my entitlement is now ex- hausted, and I come to you and ask you, under Clause 61, to recommend that my unemployment benefit shall continue." Is not the chairman of the tribunal bound to say to him, "How much have you got in the bank? How much have you saved? What sources of income have you to depend upon? Who do you live with? Who lives with you?"

Is anyone going to suggest that such questions are not questions about "the particular circumstances of the applicant?" If that is not what the expression means, will the Parliamentary Secretary, when he replies, tell me to what particular circumstances of the applicant the tribunal is to have regard, and by what definition these matters are excluded? This is a statutory obligation upon the tribunal, who must have regard to the particular circumstances of the applicant. Whether my right hon. Friend knew it or not—and I accept it from him that he did not mean this to happen—nevertheless the words "particular circumstances of the applicant" can only mean a personal, household and family means test, and we are right back where we were in the old days in the early 1920's. If he does not mean that—and I am sure he does not, since he says he does not—

May I get this point clear? When an unemployed man under the old Act exhausts his unemployment benefit by right and applies for unemployment assistance, he is subjected to a household means test, and what he is then paid, is not a benefit but an assessment of his need. This Clause lays it down clearly that unemployment benefit shall be paid at current rates.

If my right hon. Friend says that is what he means, I can only take it from him that that is what he means, but I hope he will accept it from me that that is not what the Bill says. The Bill says "the particular circumstances of the applicant," and does not modify or qualify or limit it in any way. There are not even any of the disregards which, after so many years of painful and bitter agitation, we persuaded a previous Government to introduce. Not one of those is provided for in this Measure. There is another point which I want to make. At the end of 180 days, the question of whether the unemployed person is to get anything, is, first of all, discretionary in the Minister. He need not make any regulations at all as far as the Bill is concerned. Secondly, if he does, the tribunal is to look at the "particular circumstances of the applicant," which I insist means a means test, and the tribunal is to look also at regulations issued by the Minister, which cannot in any way lessen the duty of a tribunal to look at the particular circumstances.

Would the hon. Gentleman forgive me for interrupting him? I would be most grateful if we could hear from the Minister exactly what was meant by his reply to the hon. Gentleman. This is a very important point indeed, which I am sure the Minister will agree, and on which the whole value of these Clauses depends. Did the right hon. Gentleman mean that if the particular circumstances governing a man's conditions are such as to entitle him to any benefit at all, he will get more unemployment benefit?

The Bill makes it perfectly clear that the Minister can, on the recommendation of the tribunal, pay unemployment benefit to a man or a woman who has exhausted the standard benefit. Unemployment benefit is defined in this Bill. Therefore, the Minister has no right, in this Bill, to pay anything less than unemployment benefit to any person.

But the recommendation can only be made when the tribunal has looked at "the particular circumstances of the applicant," and, looking at those particular circumstances the tribunal may decide that the applicant is living in such comfort, as a result of the generosity of friends or relatives, or because he has saved so much out of his previous earnings, that it does not choose to make the recommendation, and if it does not choose to make the recommendation my right hon. Friend cannot pay any further benefit. That is the point which I am making—that any payment which is ultimately paid to an unemployed person after the 181st day is paid to him as a matter of discretion by the Minister on the advice of the tribunal, and not as of right. In other words, we are back quite literally on the dole. I have made that point as clear as I can make it.

My next point is this. Even such tenuous, I will not say rights, but poten- tialities as an unemployed person may have under Clause 61 come to an end in five years, because Clause 61 is headed "Temporary provision as to unemployment benefit," and Subsection (5) says:

I will not be drawn into that question, because I do not wish to prolong my speech. I think that the planning of our economy in an unplanned economic world would be very difficult, and the one thing that can be claimed for Bretton Woods is that it is an attempt, at any rate, to get some sort of economic planning. I can quite see the strong claim that, in the ordering of our affairs as we intend to order them, mass unemployment shall not occur. If it does not occur it will not cost anything and, therefore, there is no reason why the exclusion should be made in this Bill. If, on the other hand, it is going to occur, then we are bound by the pledges we have given to the electorate to give the unemployed man a right to insurance benefit. That is what this Bill does not give. It is said that if that sort of thing happens there will be a complete breakdown in our economic affairs, and this is not a thing which ought to be borne by an insurance fund. My right hon. Friend said that the unemployment fund after the last war broke down just because it was made to bear an uninsurable burden that it was never created to bear at all. He said that we could not risk a breakdown of this fund. It may well be that the Minister, in order to cover this, will require to have provision made outside the fund by the Exchequer. If he prefers—though I do not see why he should—to have it borne by a separate fund provided by the Exchequer rather than have the Exchequer make up the necessary deficit inside the fund, I should not quarrel with him about that. I say it is essential to the whole of our social philosophy, to the whole principle of social security, that a man who is unemployed through no fault of his own, should have rights against the State and should not be dependent merely upon its mercy and charity.

7.11 p.m.

The few remarks that I have to make tonight I want to be conciliatory and non-controversial, because I wish, if possible, to claim the support of the hon. Members opposite as well as of those on our own benches. Unfortunately, I do not think I can begin without a reference to the opening of the speech to which we have just listened from the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman). If we were to accept at their full value, the words of the hon. Gentleman, the country would have a right to be convinced that this Bill has been produced in the last six months by this Government, entirely of their own volition and by their own work. The hon. Gentleman failed to give any thanks to Sir William Beveridge. He failed to give thanks to the Ministers of the Coalition Government who to a very large extent planned this scheme. None of us wants to begrudge the credit due to the Labour Ministers in the Coalition Government. May I say, however—and I think my hon. Friends on this side of the House would agree with me—we do not try to convince our followers that the members of the Socialist Party lack good will towards men, or that they do not desire to serve their fellow men. To sit in this House day after day and listen to the smug, righteous self-satisfaction of hon. Members opposite suggesting that the spirit of brotherly love and consideration for one's fellow creatures was something that was never born until it appeared in their breasts, really, sometimes makes it a little difficult to swallow their professions. I think it is time we said what is in our thoughts about it. We hear repeatedly about the terrible 25 years between the two wars. At least, under a Conservative Government, houses were built, and there was a greater advance in social legislation in that period than in any other 50 years in history.

This is a vast scheme which is being put before the nation today. It has great risks; it has great virtues, but it can only be carried out if there is co-operation between all sections of the community, if there is confidence between all sections of the community. With regard to the propaganda to which the previous speaker referred in such glowing terms, let it be clearly understood that much of the propaganda which won the party opposite their sweeping victory in the Election, was propaganda that gravely injured the national cause. That propaganda taught many workmen to believe that to put in a day of first-rate work was to be a mug. They were taught to believe—

Is the hon. Gentleman imputing that the trade unions of this country played no part in organising the workers, in the victory we achieved?

I am not saying any such thing. I am attacking the reckless propaganda, carried out particularly by the Gollancz crowd. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about Beaverbrook?"] I am referring particularly to any Members of this House who deliberately told what they call the working people of this country, that every employer was inefficient, that the workers were being exploited. [ Interruption. ] I am saying this with all seriousness. [HON. MEMBERS: "Non-controversial?"] Not with a desire to be controversial. Much of the damage done by the party opposite is far greater than they recognise. They have to rebuild from their campaign of lies, which has been reiterated.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask your Ruling. Is the hon. Member entitled to impute these motives to hon. Members on this side?

The hon. Member can impute all kinds of motives to the opposite party but not to individuals. I must say to the hon. Gentleman who is now addressing the House that I do not quite know what this has to do with the matter under discussion.

Mr. Speaker, you had the good fortune to be out of the House when the hon. Gentleman who spoke before me began his speech, which was a sustained attack upon the Tory Party and the conditions which govern the Tory Party. But to come to what I wish to say to the House, we on this side of the House are grateful to, and warmly congratulate, the right hon. Gentleman the Minister. We believe this scheme is a splendid thing. It is a new conception of social security. The idea that poverty and hunger can be an inspiration applies sometimes in the case of a man of exceptional ability, especially if he is not married. But when you have poverty and hunger, and the man knows that these are being endured by his wife and children too, that does not urge a man on to greater achievements; it breaks his heart. Therefore, we are very glad this scheme is coming. Unless the qualities of the people of these islands change—those qualities which made the genius of the British rise and burst its bounds to overflow across the world—and I do not believe those qualities have changed, I think this new, wise, imaginative Bill will be a springboard from which this country and the people may rise to greater things. If it is not a springboard, if it is only a cushion, then it is not worthy of the great work that has gone to its preparation.

It seems to me there is one section of the community which is not being treated fairly. I refer to unmarried women. I prefer to speak of them in those terms, rather than use the harsh and unkind word "spinster," one of the cruellest words in our language. Under this Bill, a widow is at once entitled to a pension, but there is no concession to the unmarried woman. She cannot draw her State pension, or her retirement pension, until she is 60. Every war adds to the increasing plurality of women over men in this country. During a war every time a young man is killed, a home is denied a man, some woman misses marriage and it is decreed by that act that children shall not be born. Every time a soldier is killed that little human tragedy develops. What happens? Under our system of society we still underpay women. A woman does not get anything like the reward for her work that a man receives. For her to store up treasure for the future, to guard against the future, is still almost impossible. In each war, and especially now that it has developed on totalitarian lines, women are called upon to work as hard as men, so that at the end of a war they are tired and older than their, years. In most cases an unmarried woman has no one to do her housework at home. She has to work in a factory or in an office, or in a shop or store. She comes home and cooks her own meals. She has to do housework and earn a living. We all know that as a woman reaches the age of 50, 51, or 52, it is harder for her to keep up her work; she is less desirable on the labour market, yet we make no concession to her.

There has been a lot of talk today about pledges. I do not want to taunt hon. Members opposite, because I think at Election time we are asked for too many pledges. On the opposite side of the House, there are at least 150 Socialist Members who pledged their support to the advance of retirement age for unmarried women. I put down a Motion on the Order Paper and it has been supported every day by an increasing number of Conservative Members of Parliament. I am very grateful to them. I wish that, out of the great majority opposite, there was someone who would put down his name too. Is it really true that the party opposite does not believe there is a case for the unmarried woman? I am delighted and glad that the widow will get her pension at once. But think of the difference. She has had her married life. Her husband has possibly been in a good position, he has made some provision for the future, he has taken out additional insurance, and at once, without question, she gets her pension. With regard to the unmarried women, I do not care whether it is this Government or whether it is a Conservative Government, I would say exactly the same, no matter what Government were in power. I wish I could have the enthusiastic support from Members on the other side.

I believe that that last lap in an unmarried woman's life, from 55 to 60, is a cruel and hard thing, and I do not understand why the Government are not able to concede something to her. May I say to the right hon. Gentleman that actuarially it may be a heavy cost, and I know that the Spinsters' Association advocates pensions at 55. I wish I could have the right hon. Gentlemen's attention, because this is a personal appeal on behalf of myself and my friends. It may be that pensions at 55 present an actuarial problem which is very great. That I could understand. But would the right hon. Gentleman, between now and the Committee stage, consider some concession in the period of time. We should like to see the time reduced to 55 years of age. If that is absolutely impossible could he not send these women in a few days, an assurance that we understand that the war has made their problem doubly hard, and that we are going to do something for them? That is all we ask, and I should like to think the entire House agrees with us that it should be done.

7.15 p.m.

In addressing this assembly for the first time, I naturally, like most hon. Members who have gone through the ordeal, ask for the indulgence of this House. I regard that indulgence as a sort of social security, the period of benefit to be as long as my remarks last. I have two reasons for addressing the House during the Debate on this Bill. The first is human, personal and quite natural. It is because my own parents become pensioners very shortly, and as one who has known to a very great extent the actual hardship that most of our people go through, I can say nobody appreciates more than I the necessity for pensions in old age. So far as my own parents are concerned, I know I owe them a debt that cannot be paid; but, at the same time, I am conscious that having the opportunity to take part in this Parliament I am in a position to do something to help to obtain security, not only for them, but for others, too.

The other reason is a little more controversial. Hon. Members on both sides of the House may realise that I represent the constituency of Chislehurst in Kent, so long represented by an extreme opponent of the Beveridge scheme. I have to be very careful at the moment, because I do not want to cause any upsets on the other side of the House; and it is with some natural trepidation that I address the House on this particular Measure. My hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) and I have long been in conflict on this matter. To oppose this Bill my right hon. Friend has introduced is like to trying to stem an onward flood. We shall see what the hon. Gentleman the Member for Orpington says when he comes to take part in the Debate on this Bill, but I think his efforts in the past in my own constituency helped to change the representation there.

Like many other hon. Members of this House, I served in the Forces for some time, and it was during that period that we had the Beveridge Report. Nothing has caught on so much as the Beveridge scheme caught on in the Forces. I really feel today that the old Government that ended in July, never really appreciated the extent to which the Beveridge Report caught on with the boys and girls in the Forces. As time went on their interest began to wane to some degree, and the reason for that was that they said, "We cannot trust the politicians. They talk and talk and never get anywhere." Today, on each side of the House, we have a chance to redeem our souls and to show people that we do sometimes keep our promises; and that attitude, in my candid opinion, had something to do with the General Election result.

Before I go any further I should like to take the opportunity of personally extending my congratulations to the Minister of National Insurance, whom I regard as a man of sincere purpose and human sympathy. I shall watch his personal progress with a great degree of interest. If I may say so, I regard his speech yesterday as one of the greatest speeches made so far in support of the Bill. There is in all sections of society some degree of opposition to this scheme, an opposition which, although small, may grow to such an extent as to thwart appreciation by the people, of the full benefit of the scheme. The right hon. Gentleman stressed the fact that the small families' sixpences and shillings were scattered about in sick clubs, local clubs, or "diddleums" as we call them in the Bristol area. He should also have emphasised what was spent in the way of insurance premiums, which, we know, were only too frequently, paid as a result of high-pressure salesmanship. People were in no state to resist the charm of those who called merely with the idea of getting their coppers.

Then we have the stereotyped opposition from another section of the community such as I have heard so often from the hon. Member for Orpington and others. They say that this insurance scheme will encourage idleness, will dis- courage thrift, and that we shall get into the state of mind of expecting everything from a benevolent State with a bottomless purse. I have heard that so often that I can hear it in my sleep. But do these people, well-intentioned as they are, understand the position? They do not, because they have not had the experience of the trials and tragedies which the great majority of our people have gone through at one time or another. They do not understand the effect of insecurity in this modern, streamlined, atomic world, the insecurity attendant upon all the other dangers that have been gone through before. There are some who do not pay enough attention to the loss of power which can be caused by the distribution of charity, the loss of will-power. I am not against charity, the sweet charity that will go on for all time, and which must always have its chance to do good work. But there is a small section which only too frequently in the name of charity gains personal pride and power. I have my own phrase for them, for with due deference to the ladies and without casting any reflections on them, I call them the "Lady Bountifuls" of the countryside. We all know them, but their chance is slipping, although their opposition to the scheme is still powerful.

It is not my intention in a maiden speech to attempt to go into a great deal of detail. There are many others who can do it better than I can. But I would like to take hon. Members for a trip portraying the everyday life of the average person, starting at birth. I wonder how many Members of this House, male or female, have realised the feeling of nagging insecurity which is attended by the impending arrival of a child, a child spiritually and genuinely desired, but far too often economically hated. [ Interruption. ] It is true. We may have all the Royal Commissions we like to inquire into the birth rate, the decline of population and so on, but in my opinion and according to my experience I think the basic reason responsible for men and women not bringing children into the world, is that they are afraid of the extremely heavy burden which they will have to bear by an addition to their family. It is a great tragedy that a natural desire to have a family should be restricted because of the insecurity of the life we have to endure. Then there is the question of ill-health, of the wage-earner laid up all too frequently, because the average man is so anxious and desirous of getting back to work, in order to get sufficient money, that he only gets worse. The trouble is that he is forced to go back before he is fit, because the money coming into the family is insufficient. It is also my opinion that the average mother, who should be receiving medical attention, more often than not denies herself proper treatment because it means another half-a-crown on the family budget. Far too many workers and their wives deny themselves the things they should have because they want their children to have the best that they can get. In spite of what some people say, I think that the average mother and father of this country would give everything to their children in order to give them a chance. This is the picture of family life in this country that I like to look at, and which I believe is perfectly true.

We now come to the question of unemployment. I have had one spell of it, which to a certain extent did me a great deal of good, but at the same time it was not an enjoyable experience. But let me picture to hon. Members the feelings of men lining up in the queue for the dole, shuffling along, getting nearer to the counter, with hearts beating all the faster because of hopes of the job that may be waiting there. Then when you get there the official head shakes, and your heart drops down into your boots and you go back home and try to earn a few shillings in some way or other, in order to keep together not only your own body and soul bat also those of your family. This is the kind of thing that in this modern world of 1946, should not be allowed to exist for a moment longer.

I remember once, when I was a member of a local authority, receiving a visit from the vicar of our parish asking me if I would go to see a young fellow some distance away. "I have given him a few shillings to help him in some way but he needs more than that," the vicar said. I went to see that young man and I can remember now the picture he presented to me. I can remember him literally snatching the cigarette from my hand and nearly eating it. He was quite a young man, with a job on the strength of which he had bought a decent little house. He was paying for his furniture on the hire purchase system, and so on. Then came the financial crisis, or whatever you like to call it, and the subsequent crash in which he lost his job. Gradually his money had gone, and he had been selling some of his things in order to keep up the repayments. I had to tell him that he need not have worried about the enforcement order for the rates, with which he should not have been troubled at all, because he did not have the physical means of subsistence. But I shall always remember that trembling creature. His wife was in another room suffering very badly from malnutrition, and his little child was upstairs in the bedroom suffering from lack of a treatment which he could not provide, because he was too proud to seek the necessary assistance.

Let us now take widowhood. No hon. Member of this House needs telling about the widows of our country, those brave souls who have been trying to rear their children decently after they have lost their man. There are far too many of them, in my experience, who have sold their bits of furniture and other little treasured possessions in order to keep things going. That also is the kind of tragedy in this country that should not be tolerated any longer than can be helped. Then there are the women of 50 years of age and upwards who are forced to go to work in order to keep things going. That is another of the things that ought to be done away with;

Now I come to the question of old age, because I have a supreme conviction that it is the old people who suffer more from the fear of insecurity than any others. We all know the workers who have given their service to the country and who have then been cast aside like a used match stick, because their life of usefulness is past. These people, we must remember, have brought up the youth of this country, the youth who saved us in the Battle of Britain and the other battles in this last war. It is these men and women who have given their services to the country, their children to the country and who, growing old, in the future will need all the help that is possible.

I pass to the example of the little shopkeepers for whom so many have expressed so much concern. I know one little shopkeeper who reached the time when he could no longer keep his shop because of physical incapacity and who had descended to living in a little semi-basement room. In the course of time, that man had to be removed to an institution. He was so honest that, to pay the debts he had, he left the only assets that remained to him, a pair of boots and a set of false teeth. I feel that, my right hon. Friend the Minister of National Insurance should give further consideration to the question of sick benefit for self-employed people, who frequently do not receive so much income as people who are not self-employed.

On the question of spinsters, I have great sympathy with them, and would like further consideration to be given to their position. I will give the House a picture of something that happened not many years ago, not far from the City of Westminster. A spinster, aged 70, came to the old age pensions committee to appeal for a non-contributory pension. I was a member of the committee, and heard her case gone through with care. She was barred from having a pension because she had been resident in Canada for a period of time. That dear lady turned to the chairman of the committee and asked, "What am I to do?" The chairman, with complete unconcern and utter indifference to humanity, said, "Well, madam, you have the institution." Tears began to roll down her cheeks. I shall not forget that incident as long as I live, because as she cried she stretched out her hands, and I saw that her hands were lined with hard work. I wonder how many hon. Members have ever studied hands. As I looked at those hands, I was reminded of the hands of Him who was crucified.

Some hon. Members opposite have opposed social security in the past on the ground that it would discourage thrift. But how many people can provide adequately for their old age, when they have the constant struggle against all the vicissitudes of birth, marriage, ill-health and death? Even if they have managed to save, surely they ought not to have to dissipate their savings in an attempt to keep body and soul together in their old age. They have worked hard to make those savings; they ought to be able to enjoy the fruits of their hard work. Social security is not an end in itself. Men and women in this country have a natural desire to work, and will never be made lazy by a social security scheme. In the past our people have not been noted for laziness, and I see no reason to assume that, because they have security, they will be lazy in the future. I have great faith in the ordinary people of this country. However humble a man's job may be, he is producing something or doing a service to the community, and therefore, he is entitled to have security provided for him when he comes up against conditions of insecurity. Indeed, insecurity has a very dangerous effect upon the average man and woman. We hear much talk about full production and the efficiency of the individual, but have hon. Members ever considered the damaging effect of insecurity on the efficiency of the individual? For instance, the average clerk, trying to concentrate on his work, worries all the time about whether he will have enough money to pay the expenses of his wife's confinement, to buy food, to make adequate provision for his wife and himself in their old age. These nagging little fears mount up into a big obstacle to the efficiency of the individual.

This scheme, above all other schemes, will strike deep to the heart of humanity in every home in this country. I make a plea for the humane administration of the scheme. I ask the Minister to reduce the number of forms, and to make the necessary forms as simple as possible. I know the terrific worry which old age pensioners have had in the past in getting forms completed. We must aim at reducing, and not adding to, anxiety. It will be to the eternal credit of this nation that, after a long and devastating war, we are now able to introduce this scheme. In some quarters we may be accused of haste, but I believe that in introducing this scheme at this time we are setting an example to the world, and showing faith in our own people. I hope hon. Members will take care that nothing they may say will obstruct or delay the scheme. If we have anything to say, let it be constructive, and, if only for the sake of the old people, let us get this scheme into operation as soon as we can.

7.38 p.m.

As a junior Member of the House, I feel somewhat embarrassed at having to congratulate an hon. Member on his maiden speech, but on behalf of the whole House, I wish sincerely to congratulate the hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr. G. Wallace) on his speech. The hon. Member has painted a number of vivid personal pictures, and has approached the subject with an earnestness and a depth of feeling commendable to us all. I am sure I am expressing the sentiments of all hon. Members when I say that I hope it will not be long before the hon Member again makes a valuable contribution to our Debates.

As a Liberal, I welcome wholeheartedly the introduction of this Measure, and I hope I may be forgiven if I add that, as a native of, and a Member for a constituency in, West Wales, I feel particularly proud that one of our own people should have had the distinction and responsibility of introducing the Measure. While associating myself with the general enthusiasm for the Bill, I should like also to support many of the criticisms that have been made on questions of detail. I refer, in particular, to the references which have been made to the heavy burden which the contributions are going to inflict upon the rural workers; to the inequitable position in which the self-employed person is put by reason of Clause 11, to the unjustifiable distinction between the widow and the spinster, and also to the failure to implement the undertakings given with regard to the friendly societies. I do not want to develop these themes. Many persons have dealt with them and will undoubtedly deal with them again in the course of the Debate.

The main reason which I have for intervening in this Debate is to bring forward a matter which has not been dealt with either by the right hon. Member the Minister of National Insurance or by the Prime Minister. It is the question of how this Measure is to be administered in Wales. The sentiments of the Minister on this subject are well known. The wishes of the local authorities in Wales, of the Minister's own staff in Wales and of the Welsh people as a whole are equally well known to the Minister. I would urge him to give expression to these sentiments and wishes in a concrete form in this Bill before it reaches the Committee stage.

He has an excellent precedent in the present Welsh Board of Health. I ask him not to treat Wales merely as a region to which a Minister can delegate certain powers according to his will. I ask him to treat Wales, in this respect, as a nation, and to set up a statutory body on the lines of the Welsh Board of Health—a Welsh Board of National Insurance—and to invest that Board with specific powers. I urge him to exercise his powers and to perform his duties in relation to Wales through the medium of such a Board. If he does that, he will be acting in conformity with the declared policy of the Government on the question of decentralisation, in the interests of efficient administration and in accordance with the wishes of the Welsh people. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary, at the appropriate stage of this Debate, to indicate specifically whether Wales is to be treated merely as a region with certain powers delegated to it, according to the whim of the particular person who happens to be Minister of National Insurance at any time, or whether the special position of Wales is to be recognised in the way I have suggested.

7.45 P.m.

I suppose that to express the sentiment that the Minister of National Insurance is a man of great human understanding is to say something which is known to every Member in this House. What has perhaps pleased many of us has been the grasp of detail and the knowledge and understanding which he has brought to the framing of this Bill. I am sure that irrespective of his views, every Member in this House will realise that the Minister has had a most formidable task, and has concluded it with all the sincerity and capacity which we know him to possess.

My excuse for speaking this evening is that I represent many thousands of insurance agents and workers, and in that capacity, as everyone here will appreciate, I have a somewhat onerous duty. If any section of workers in this country is liable to be affected by this Bill, insurance agents and workers are in that category. I am very happy to say that they have agreed to support in principle the main measures in this Bill, because they recognise that, in so doing, they are helping to confer upon the community a Measure which will be for the benefit of most people in this land. Let us for the moment take the position of the average insurance agent. I know that all kinds of jeers are hurled in his direction—"The man from the Prudential." The hon. Member who has just delivered a most excellent maiden speech said that they were high-powered salesmen who exercised unwarrantable pressure on unsuspecting housewives to induce them to part with some of their money. I am not denying, and I do not want to be unctuous, that in exceptional instances it may have been true It was not the fault of the workers engaged in the industry but rather the fault of the big insurance offices which still remain to a large extent dominant in this country and which are among the wealthiest financial institutions in the world, exercising considerable political power. I described them in the last Parliament as "death watch beetles" disintegrating the very fabric of the social insurance scheme. The insurance worker finds himself in this position. As a result of compulsory death benefits for adults and the benefits given in the case of all newborn children, his income will be considerably depleted. It is true that there can be additional insurance, but when a man has paid 4s. 7d. a week, and a woman a similar amount, under this scheme, they are hardly likely to be in a position to insure voluntarily over and above the amount they are now called upon to pay. In many millions of cases this will be so. The insurance agent, therefore, finds here his business will be greatly depleted.

Then there is the question of national health insurance and how it would affect say an agent of the Prudential. It has been computed that on an average the Prudential agent will lose 12s. 7d. per week in respect of the work which he does for national health insurance alone, and 12s. 7d. is a very considerable proportion of his agent's income. There will be losses ranging from 5s. to 20s. per week for other insurance agents. When we come to the question of workmen's compensation, an important part of the business, we find that they will again be adversely affected. I think that the House will appreciate, therefore, that agents are very much concerned as to the future.

On top of that there is the possibility of interference with fire and general business. It is true that at the moment nothing has been done about this, but in future it may be that this part of his business may be taken away from him. Again, if paragraph 136 of the White Paper dealing with third party insurance is to be implemented, we have the position of perhaps a third of the business being taken over by the State. Side by side with that is the question of book interest, a kind of goodwill interest which the agents have in their books. Whatever may be thought about that, there is not an hon. Member on either side of the House who will not sympathise with the man who has invested £300 or £400 in his book and who comes back from the war to find that to a large extent this investment has vanished. That burden may well have to be borne by the insurance agent, of whom there are about 65,000 in the country today. Under the Insurance Act of 1909, the livelihood of the agent is gained by multiple services, and it is almost obligatory upon him to undertake national health insurance. I would ask the Minister to pay particular regard to these people.

Before I deal briefly with the question of compensation in Clause 66, I would like to make this statement to the House It will be remembered that under the. Beveridge Report Sir William in Change 3, the supersession of approved societies, himself made a distinction between the purely friendly societies, which, of course, are not run for profit, and industrial approved societies, against which a certain amount of criticism has been levelled. A further proposal was made in Change 23, the establishment of an Industrial Assurance Board. It would have been very wrong, and there would have been strong resentment felt by the insurance agents, if the Government had accepted Change 3 of the Report and not Change 23. At the moment I am stressing a personal opinion that for years I have advocated and will continue to advocate, the nationalisation of industrial assurance, one of the most important steps that any Labour Government or, for that matter, any Government could possibly have in their programme. My own party has not been as courageous in the past on this matter as it might have been. On this side of the House there must be some bold speaking. Our criticism has been constructive because our party recognises that in the future they will have to tackle that proposal, and they will have to establish a board to take over from private profit this matter of industrial assurance and run it for the benefit of the nation. Furthermore, they will have to have regard to the workers engaged in the business and see that the terms are no less favourable than those which operate in the best offices. In Change 23 Sir William Beveridge said that a business like this should be reformed, and the staff placed at the disposal of the Ministry for other work in the field of social insurance whether in connection with health insurance or in some other form. I trust, therefore, that the Minister of National Insurance will bear this in mind and see to it that wherever possible any worker in industrial insurance who has been rendered redundant by the operation of this Bill or whose livelihood is impaired to an appreciable extent will be adequately compensated or incorporated in this scheme.

On this question of compensation, I am going to use some very strong language regarding the terminology found in Bills. Why in the name of goodness is it essential, in the year 1946, to use an archaic form of language that nobody can understand? Sometimes I live in mortal fear of lawyers. I go out on occasions into the Lobbies and see these sepulchral lawyer gentlemen emerge, strange, weird figures bedizened in wigs and gowns, with crows feet surrounding their eyes, as a result of poring into legal musty tomes, volumes as dead-as the dodo. They bring the type of fuscated language found in such books into Bills presented in this House so that the ordinary Member of Parliament cannot hope to understand it.

I wish it were possible to devise some simple, understandable language in Bills presented to Members so that they would really know what they were talking about. I have tried to understand what is meant by compensation, and I find myself more bewildered than ever. It is said, for example, in Clause 66, which is a Clause apparently of a limited character—and I do not envy the multifarious duties the Parliamentary Secretary has on hand if he tries to get any clarity on the subject—that compensation will only be given to full-time employees of approved societies or other bodies administering the affairs of approved societies, provided they are wholly or mainly employed on health insurance. An insurance agent may well spend 5 per cent. to 49 per cent. of his time on national health insurance, but because literally he is not devoting the major portion of his time to that work, he would be regarded as not coming within the compass of the Bill for the purpose of compensation. I should like that to be clarified. I should like it also to be remembered that there are full-time officers who are responsible for workmen's compensation who will suffer greatly by this Bill. I trust that consideration will be given to that.

If the Government are to adopt this principle, why do they say, in regard to stockholders in mines or in the Bank of England, who have a multiple form of income, and who derive unearned income in a way distinct from workers who toil hard, that they have to be adequately compensated? Surely, it is equally right that the insurance agent should be compensated? I have a great admiration for my right hon. Friend, not only from the personal point of view, but from the point of view of his deep, warm, human understanding, which is much more important, and I trust he will find it within his vision, and within the bounds of practicability, to include insurance workers, who will be gravely affected if they are not included, within the Compensation provisions of this Bill.

I do not want to deal with home service because, as my right hon. Friend knows, I had the honour of preparing a document for him which, I trust, was not altogether without some interest. I have worked in the home service for 13 years, during which I have called at the homes of many people. My right hon. Friend yesterday said that a lot of tosh was talked about visits to people's homes. I agree in some respects, but there are cases where visitations by a warm-hearted, understanding, well-informed individual—to an old widow, a bed-ridden person or an illiterate person, who does not understand the workings of Acts of Parliament—are extremely helpful. I, therefore, trust that the element of the home service will be incorporated in the scheme which my right hon. Friend is devising. I could have gone on much longer, but I have some regard to succeeding speakers. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I wish other Members would bear that in mind. I would not have risen tonight had it not been for the fact that I am not speaking as an individual, but on behalf of thousands who are deeply concerned about this Measure. But we welcome this Bill. We remember the words of my right hon. Friend at the Labour Party Conference in Blackpool in which he said, on the question of nationalisation of insurance:

8.3 p.m.

In business it is quite common for us, when we have had to tackle a new scheme, to say to ourselves, "We will presume that that is all settled; now we must get on. What do we do next?" I feel very much the same in regard to this Bill. The Government and the Minister, in a few months, will have done their part. What about the nation's part? I have sat in this House during the various-stages which have led to this Bill—the introduction of the Beveridge Report, the White Paper upon it, which we debated, and now the Measure itself. Throughout that period I have seen what others have seen—various claimants coming forward, some being satisfied and some not. I know the Minister would like to do more than he has been able to do. Tonight he has been urged to do more, for instance, by my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter). Anyone who is a Minister must have a difficult task in saying, "No," and putting off these new and urgent appeals.

Why cannot we have all we would like? Why is a line drawn? Simply because it must be drawn. One of the hard tasks is to draw that line. The limit, of course, is finance, and must always be so. We can argue as to what we ought to do, but the question is: What is it possible to do? A saying which has always appealed to me is "Economic law takes no account of moral issues." That is not cynical. I hate cynicism. However good our intentions are, it is essential that we should keep inside the economic boundaries, otherwise, sooner or later, we shall have disappointment and disillusionment. To give a simple parallel: The National Trust has properties offered to it which are ripe for being taken over in the national interest. Those properties are taken over on one condition—that provision is made, when they are taken over, for their maintenance. That standpoint is correct. We are making a decision, in putting through this Bill, to remove uncertainty. My working experience has taught me how real is the fear of uncertainty, which grows as a man grows older, and as his responsibilities increase. That has been realised in many industries for a considerable time. Indeed, many have instituted their own schemes for their own workers, and I agree with the Minister that these schemes, which are covered by contracts, must be looked at carefully, and that the contracts must be carried out, as I am sure they will be.

But there arises the question of cost First, the employer pays, and that is all right so long as the costs are absorbed. As an hon. Member on this side of the House pointed out a short time ago, there arises the danger of the costs being passed on. Unless it is absorbed it will have to be passed on and that will mean a rise in prices. But we cannot afford to have prices raised today, either for home consumption or, even less, for overseas consumption. Then there is the contribution made by the worker. Many of us know that the worker is prepared to pay extra in order to increase his security. In fact he has been doing it voluntarily and I am certain there will be no difficulty in the majority of cases about accepting the increased payment. The difficulty will come from the fact that he will wish to continue to draw two lots of benefit but he may be neither willing nor able to pay both the increased contributions under the State scheme and the one he has been paying voluntarily in the past.

Repeatedly in our discussions, on the White Paper, and the Bill, there is reference to the fact that the Exchequer will have to carry the indirect cost to the worker. Another phrase says that the Treasury will provide, but, as I always tell my constituents and my own workers, the Treasury has no money. The Exchequer is the Department which holds their money and my money. It is the taxpayers' money with which we are concerned. It is the indirect charge we have to consider. No longer are taxes paid by the select few. Now the workers provide the large bulk of the taxation. I have listened to the stories told on Budget day by three Chancellors of the Exchequer, the late Sir Kingsley Wood, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson), and the present Chancellor, all of whom have taken care to point out what a wide range of taxpayers there is today. The worker is the taxpayer. There is no mystery about finance. People like to weave a mystery around it.

What we get in this world we either earn ourselves or somebody earns for us. This is a statement with which my hon. Friends will agree. Thus, the cost of this advance which we are all welcoming, and of the other advances which are to come, has to be earned by somebody, earned by work. The trouble, as I see it, is that in the days to come we are going to have fewer workers in the land—the population tendency shows that. We act in the Bill on the belief that we should, if possible, achieve a shorter working life. That means that more work will have to be done by those who are left. The national income will have to be increased, which means increased production, and we shall not have more people to do it. We shall have less.

Therefore, we have to divide the problem into its three parts. First, we must have improved equipment, as we are being told repeatedly and regularly. It is being improved in the engineering industry, for which I can speak personally, and in other industries the matter is coming before commissions and committees, all of whom are agreed on the principle. Secondly, we must have better management. If one reads and studies the articles contributed by special correspondents to the various newspapers and technical journals, one sees that this fact is realised, and classes, organisations, and institutes are being formed to deal with the matter. Lastly, we have to work harder all round if we are to have the increased production necessary to increase the national income. The President of the Board of Trade, speaking in Birmingham last weekend, took that line and it was very well received. I hope that no Minister or no Member of this House will allow people to persuade themselves that we are going to get these advantages with which we are dealing in this Bill, and others that are to come, without haying to work for them. On the wider scale of national affairs, a saying which we have in the engineering world aptly applies in my view. It is this: "Success can be planned in the boardroom, but it can only be achieved on the floor of the shop."

8.18 p.m.

I think the speech delivered yesterday by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler) and that delivered from the Opposition Front Bench in today's Debate made it fairly clear that while hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House are not proposing to oppose the Measure now before the House, they feel far from enthusiastic about it. Their interest, I think, lies in other directions, and it is matters other than questions of social security that raise their enthusiasm. We have not seen much of it displayed in the course of this Debate. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden ventured to quote Keir Hardie as a witness to the fact that, at the end of the last century, the Liberal Party had not as good a record on Labour legislation as his own party had. I am not disposed to deny what is of course a fact, namely, that the Conservative Party did make itself responsible for the passage of some quite important social legislation in this country. But although it might have been true at the time Keir Hardie spoke, that the record of the Liberal Party compared unfavourably with that of the Conservative Party, it is not going to be true for a very long time to say that the record of the Conservative Party compares favourably in respect of these matters with that of the party that sits on this side of the House.

Are we to assume that the hon. Member is claiming on behalf of his party, proprietary rights for the National Insurance Bill?

I am endeavouring to be scrupulously fair. I am not claiming that the party on this side of the House is entitled to the whole credit for the proposals included in the Measure at present being discussed.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Kensington (Mr. Law) alluded this afternoon to what he said was the main difference between his party and the party on these benches. I forget what the difference was, because it is very easy indeed to forget what the right hon. Gentleman said in the course of his oration, but may I draw attention to what seems to me to be one really significant difference between the party on that side of the House and the party on this side? The Conservative Party may have passed some important social legislation, they may have passed some important labour legislation, but when did they ever go out to the country to arouse the public conscience on these matters, to prepare public opinion for legislation in this House? Never, so far as I know. I have known them go out on political stunts. I remember the great Conservative agitation at the time when Mr. Lloyd George introduced his Budget some years ago. I remember their Tariff Reform campaign, and now they are conducting what they mistakenly believe to be a popular agitation on the subject of the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill.

On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. As it is the desire of all Members of the House that this Measure should be taken with the least possible political discussion, may I ask whether this speech is in Order?

Although I did not hear the last few words of the speech, I think it was in Order at the time of the interruption, but I will take note of what the right hon. Member says.

I will accept your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, whatever it may be. I was about to point out that the Labour Party can at any rate claim credit for a long and consistent agitation for the education and organisation of public opinion, for an appeal to the public conscience on questions such as those covered by this Bill, and the result has been the presentation of this beneficial Measure to the present House of Commons. We have at any rate the right to claim credit to that extent. This Bill is one which the Labour Party has the right to regard with very great satisfaction indeed. The Bill guarantees freedom for the future from the worst forms of want, such as we have experienced for so long. I have no hesitation in saying that the credit for that is due to the party which sits on these benches.

A good deal of reference has been made during this two-day Debate to the cost of the Measure. We were reminded yesterday and we have been reminded again today that the total cost of the Bill when it operates in 1948 will be not less than £450 million. That is a colossal figure, and it is difficult to understand what it means. It does not represent any new charge on the revenues of this country or any completely new burden on the shoulders of those who will be called upon to contribute under the provisions of the scheme. There are certain charges and certain reductions of cost that have to be set against that figure. We cannot measure the effect of the Bill in increasing the productive power of this country, but that it will tend to increase productive power there can be no reasonable doubt. That fact arises from the very simple and obvious truth that a well-conditioned worker is a much more efficient producer than an ill-conditioned worker. To the extent to which a condition of high physical efficiency is brought about in our working-class population, the Bill will tend to increase the industrial and productive efficiency of Great Britain.

What that increase means in terms of £ s. d. no one can say now; nor can anyone say yet what will be the effect of these proposals in reducing some very heavy costs which, up to now, have been incurred by this country just because these provisions have been absent and therefore the working-class population have not enjoyed their protection. We were reminded yesterday that the cost of preventable sickness in this country has been estimated to be about £300 millions per annum. It is obvious to any intelligent person that very considerable savings in that amount may be expected from the proposals of the Minister, but it will be some time before it will be possible to judge all their effects upon the national economy. I believe that when the balance sheet can be studied, which can only be after the passage of years, the results will justify the policy of the present Government in this matter. The plan means that the community is meeting the cost of relief in the most scientific and least wasteful way and in the way which is most advantageous to the national economy of Great Britain. The Prime Minister said some very wise words on that subject in his contribution to the Debate this evening. An adequate provision for social security is ultimately far less costly than an inadequate and parsimonious one.

Now let me turn to the pensions proposals. Some reference was made to them by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden. His remarks appeared to me to be slightly critical of the proposals. He said that the Government had deliberately decided to go out for retirement pensions at a level which was much more generous than for other levels of the population. I do not accept that point of view. I was rather surprised to see in the "Manchester Guardian," a suggestion that it might be desirable to make some initial economy at the expense of the aged for the benefit of the young. Whatever case might be made out for increased benefits for the young, I am certain that no case can be made out by any Member of this House for reduction in the rate of retirement pension proposed for the aged people of this country. In common with a good many other Members of this House, and other people who unfortunately are not Members of this House, I was approached by the Old Age Pensioners' Association in the course of the Election. They wished to ascertain my views about their demand for a 30s. per week old age pension. I told them that I regarded that figure as reasonable, in the circumstances, for an old age pensioner, and I will not in any way shift from that view now. I am not at all influenced, and I have not been influenced, by pressure or propaganda, of the old age pensioners themselves. I hoped that the Minister would find it possible to go just a little nearer in the Bill to meeting in full the claims of the old age pensioners.

I look at the 30s. per week in the light of my own experience. If the House will forgive me, I want to refer for a moment to that experience. Until I came to this House after the recent Election I was employed in a Bradford factory at a workman's wage. I had worked in that factory for a long number of years but I have never, although I have been most economical in my expenditure, been able to make anything like satisfactory provision for old age. If I had lost the Election I should have gone back to my trade. I should have worked there for three more years and then I should have been compulsorily retired. The income of myself and my wife jointly would have totalled two guineas per week if the Bill had been in operation, plus about 15s. in respect of superannuation payment. That would have been the income, just under £3 per week, for the maintenance of two adult persons. That is not a very generous reward for 50 years of steady service to industry but it is a better position than very many people have at the present time, who are nearing, or who have already reached, 65 years of age It may be that the Minister feels he has been as generous as he can afford to be in the circumstances. I am glad to know that he has made provision in the Bill for review every five years of the conditions operating under the Bill. I very much hope that the time may not be very far distant when our scheme of retirement pensions will approach nearer to the most generous scheme in the world, namely, that which is run under the auspices of the Labour Government of New Zealand. I have exhausted the time which I intended to take. On the whole, I think that this is an extremely good Measure for which the country has waited a very long time. It will bring blessings and advantages never, before enjoyed by vast masses of the people. I consider the Minister a most fortunate man in having the privilege of piloting through this House and through the Committee of this House, a Measure which I know is so very much after his own heart. I wish him every success and a speedy passage for this very great Insurance Bill

8 31 p.m.

I rise to address this House for the first time and I feel sure it will give me that indulgence which it is usual to give to maiden speakers. I am particularly happy that I have caught your eye, Sir, on this occasion in order to pay my humble tribute, not only to the Minister, but to his Parliamentary Secretary for the production of this Measure. I know they are both looking forward to seeing the fructification of a lifetime of effort to bring about some degree of social security. The Bill is a Measure of great complexity which must have entailed a great deal of personal detail and work, and the House appreciated the lucid statement of the Minister in outlining the proposals.

I am expressing a personal point of view, but I confess that I was always rather inclined to the opinion that, when our various schemes of social security came to be considered for consolidation, some thought should have been given to creating a new scheme on the basis of a non-contributory rather than a contributory character. I approach the question with an inexperienced Parliamentary mind, but I believe that if the approach had been along these lines, the Minister would have had a simplified scheme from the point of view of administration. This Measure will entail a complex administrative machinery, and I believe that that complexity could have been considerably reduced if the basis had been non-contributory. I think it is true to say that whether we have a contributory or non-contributory scheme, the ultimate basis of the scheme, or the wherewithal by which it can be worked, ultimately falls as a general charge on the productive capacity of the country. I believe that we should have been able to give a standard benefit rate throughout the ranges which would have cut out some of the anomalies which undoubtedly arise in the present Bill.

I would like to deal for a few moments with the ratio of contribution to the income of the individual, and I may be forgiven for taking what is probably an extreme example. Throughout my business life I have been associated with statutory superannuation funds, and I quote the case of an individual who takes his or her retirement on an optional basis, a woman at 55, or a man at 60. In quite a number of cases a woman at 55 will retire on a pension of something less than £80 a year, or about 30s. a week. In order to maintain benefits, as I see it, under this scheme, as a person who is not gainfully occupied, out of that meagre income she will be called upon to pay 3s. 8d. per week. Other examples could be given, where great hardship will be placed upon individuals by the high ratio of contributions needed to keep them in benefit.

I would also reinforce the opinions expressed on both sides of the House regarding the question of some reconsideration of the claims of the unmarried woman. Our statutory companies and local authorities, in their old superannuation schemes, have recognised for a number of years the advisability of at least giving women the option to go on to the superannuation fund at the age of 55, so that I think we can claim that a pension for the unmarried woman at 55 has, to some extent, been established. It is true to say that the bulk of women who are entitled to these superannuation benefits from statutory funds are engaged in non-manual occupations, and I trunk that if the argument can be applied to them, it can be applied with much greater force to the women who are engaged in manual industries. The woman engaged in a manual industry, on reaching the age of 55, is likely in her future years to have a very high incidence of sickness. When our production capacity has reached its maximum, during the next few years, it will be socially necessary to give some inducement to women employed in productive industries to take their pensions and retire at the age of 55. I hope that the Minister, during the passage of this Bill through its remaining stages, will reconsider his attitude to the claims put forward on behalf of unmarried women.

I strongly support the pleas that have been made on behalf of the self-employed man. I am referring particularly to that considerable section of our people who, though self-employed, are in the main employed in such a fashion that their returns from that employment are in many cases lower than those of the ordinary workman. I would ask the Minister to reconsider the position regarding the 24-day waiting period, because these self-employed men very often keep on working for the sake of the goodwill of their business when they ought to be laying up and getting over what might be a short illness but which develops into a long one as a result. I believe that a reduction in the waiting period for this type of self-employed person would give him the opportunity of using that benefit at least for placing in temporary charge of his business an individual who could look after its goodwill in order that when he recovers he will find the basis of his business there to carry on.

That is all I have to say except once again to offer my congratulations to the Minister for bringing in this great Measure. He must be a proud man today, and I believe that if he gives that consideration which I know he will give to some of the suggestions that have come from these benches, he can be a prouder man, for he will have increased the benefits under the Bill to such an extent that he will have created the first step to a system of social security that will bring him blessings from all the men and women of this nation.

8.42 p.m.

I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for allowing me to speak for a few moments upon this Bill. Also you have given me great pleasure because it is only a short time ago since I myself was "air-borne" as a Member of this House and I have now the great pleasure of congratulating the hon. Member for South Wembley (Mr. Barton) on his maiden speech. I do not know what the hon. Member felt last night but I well remember what I felt on the night before I spoke for the first time in this House, and the only words that really fitted my feelings were those of the Cornish litany:

"From Ghoulies and Ghosties

And Long-Leggety Beasties,

And all Things that go Bump in the Night,

Good Lord Deliver us."

He has got that over, but that is not all. I am convinced that all of us have felt the sincerity he put into his speech, and I am quite sure that we all hope we shall hear him many times again in this Chamber.

I propose to be as brief as possible, and therefore I shall address myself to the Bill and to the Bill alone. First, with regard to the approved and friendly societies. The particular point has been dealt with by my right hon. Friends the Members for South Kensington (Mr. Law) and for. Oxford University (Sir A. Salter). They have put it so clearly that I should be only duplicating their words if I spoke on that subject, but I sincerely trust that the Minister will take due notice of the words that have been spoken.

With regard to Clause 11 (1, b ) which deals with the self-employed person, I sincerely trust that the Minister, with his great heart, will give great thought to that provision. To my mind it is utterly unjust that a self-employed man or woman, of whom there are many with small shops up and down our countryside, should be penalised by having to wait 24 days for benefit—24 days of illness is more likely to make one look at the death grant. The normal illness is under that time and the self-employed man should and must be protected. The hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter) has put the point of the unmarried woman, and I hope the Minister will reconsider that point and obtain the views of the Government Actuary upon it to see whether anything can possibly be done.

The point I come to now, which so far has not been fully dealt with, is one on which I hope I shall have the attention of the right hon. Gentleman because I feel deeply upon it. It is that of the inshore fishermen. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, they were included in the National Health Insurance Act of 1936. My hon. Friends and myself battled their case on the Industrial Injuries Bill, and the Minister agreed to include them in that. I think all hon. Members would agree that the fishermen of England—I had better say the fishermen of Britain—should receive consideration. We know the hazards they have to face, and all of us here from time to time have seen the tragedy that has wrecked their lives. Moreover, all of us have seen in the bad, or the good, old days the very little money they have had. These men are share fishing, they divide their catch, and if ever there were employers who were also employed people, they are these inshore fishermen. So I sincerely trust that the right hon. Gentleman will give very close attention to that point and assure us at the end of this Debate that he will find a form of words by which to include them in the Bill as employed persons.

My last point is this: I am not at all certain whether or not the contributions payable by everyone will be allowed for tax purposes. Are they to be deducted from the gross income, and the net income after the deduction of this and other allowances returned for tax? I would like to have an answer on this point, and no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will consult with the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon this point. In conclusion I feel delighted that I have been able to take part for a few moments in a great occasion—an occasion which I think all hon. Members are glad to witness, namely, the birth of national insurance.

8.49 p.m.

Rising for the first time to address this House, I would ask for the indulgence which has been so generously given to those maiden speakers who have preceded me in this Debate. I am glad of the opportunity for more than one reason. I am glad to be able to offer my humble congratulations to a fellow-countryman—although he represents a Welsh Division and I, an English Division—on the pride which it must give him, to be in charge of this Bill. For the second time in the history of this country, a Welshman has played a great part in this matter of providing our people with the means of sustenance and life in their darkest hours. This Bill, comprehensive as it is, seeks to aid the weaker sections of our population.

I have for the last 20 years played some small part in the administration of National Health Insurance. I have for that time been a part-time secretary of a local branch of an approved society and I know what tragedies are enacted within their doors, when the breadwinner falls ill. Our people in Wales and England are a proud people and the majority of them do not parade their poverty through the streets of their town and village. They prefer to hide their distress behind closed doors. It has been my job in those 20 years to call upon hundreds of people in the same employment as myself—that of a railway worker—who have fallen on evil days and to hand to them 18s. or 20s. or 23s. Thank goodness, the approved society of which I was an official paid one of the highest rates in the country. Now, it will be the pleasant task of those who undertake this job to pay a man with a wife and child 49s. 6d. as against the 23s. which is paid under existing legislation. I have seen good homes ruined by long periods of ill health. It was my misfortune when a young man to have a parent who fell on evil days and for years he was unable to work because of ill health. If this Measure had been in existence in those days it might have been easier for the members of my family.

I am glad this Measure deals in a comprehensive way with the problem of unemployment. I lived in South Wales in those dark days when 40 per cent. of the industrial population were unemployed—not for intermittent periods nor for a short time. They were good honest hard-working men whose only crime was that they were unable to find employers and they were unemployed for two, three and four years. In 1936, in the division I have the honour to represent in this House, 36·6 per cent. of the insured population were unemployed for long periods. This Bill will repair, to some extent, the ravages of that time. But I warn the House that this Bill alone will not repair those ravages. This Bill alone will not give us the kind of country we want to see. It will only go part of the way. I would remind the House of the fact that Sir William Beveridge in that memorable Report indicated that this kind of scheme would only work, provided that three assumptions were satisfied. The first was that there should be a fairly substantial measure of employment. The second was that there should be a comprehensive, all-embracing health service, and I look forward in the days and weeks that lie ahead to another great Welshman playing his part in this task of rehabilitation in introducing the second of those assumptions. The third assumption has already been satisfied, by the granting of family allowances.

The working man goes through life in fear of insecurity. All through the earlier part of his working life he fears to lose his job, fears that he will not be able to give his children a decent chance in life, fears that he may lose his health and the means of earning his livelihood. In the evening of his life he fears what will happen to him when he can no longer earn his daily bread. It is undoubtedly true that one of the greatest tragedies of the working classes over the last 30 or 40 years has been this dread of not being able to fend for themselves in their old age and having to scrimp and scamp in order not to have to appeal to others for charity. They fear that they are going to lose their homes and be dependent on relatives. This Bill will make their lot far easier than it has been before. Who is more entitled to an evening of contentment and security than those men and women who have grown old in the service of this country, men and women who have served in some cases for 50 years and given good honest work on behalf of the nation? Are they not entitled in their old age to a measure of security and comfort? The greatness of a nation is not measured by its buildings; it is not measured by its valour in war. It is measured by the happiness and contentment it can impart to the lives of its aged people.

I said earlier that I had some experience of approved societies. I was rather amazed, if I may be so presumptuous as to say so, at some of the statements made this afternoon by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Kensington (Mr. Law), when he called to his aid the Beveridge Report. May I call the Beveridge Report to my aid? It said that the approved society system of national insurance had outworn its usefulness. Indeed, from 1924 to 1926 a Royal Commission examined this problem and made a recommendation. It is true that it was only a minority who made this recommendation, but the majority recommendation, which said that the approved societies at that time should remain in existence, also said that if there was an alteration in the basis of national insurance, the approved society system should go. I was surprised to hear the right hon. Gentleman mix approved societies with the present demand of the friendly societies to act as paying agents. Sir William Beveridge, in his Report, said this of approved societies:

I say to my right hon. Friend that the friendly societies of this country, as distinct from the industrial assurance societies and the trade union societies—I want to say something about the trade union approved societies in a moment—still desire to take part in this scheme as paying agents on behalf of my right hon. Friend. I suggest to him that he might have another look at the possibility of permitting these people to come in, even if only for a temporary period. After all, the transformation from the existing basis to the new basis will be a terrific job. I would suggest to him that he might consider the possibility of inducing these people to come in for a very limited period. During that time he could judge as to whether their presence is justified, or otherwise, and reach a decision whether they should be excluded completely at a later date.

Regarding the trade union group of approved societies, I would point out that on 25th September, 1945, Mr. J. W. Lowe, J P, the President of the Association of Trade Union Approved Societies, at a conference of the societies used these words, and I think they are important:

Then I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary how he proposes to deal with another class of workmen—the locomotive engine drivers on the Great Western Railway who have an agreement to be superannuated for a small payment at 60 years of age. Are these people, at 60, after having spent 40 years on the footplate, to seek other employment for the last five years, or are they to be treated as people who are unemployable and called upon to contribute 4s. 8d. per week to the fund? How exactly are they to be treated for the last five years before becoming entitled to a pension?

I would reinforce the appeals made to the Minister from both sides of the House for a very careful and serious re-examination of the problem of the self-employed person. Twenty-four waiting days is, in my judgment, far too long. If it is a question of the actuarial contribution to be made by these people, I think they would be prepared to pay a higher figure in order to get the benefit after the third day and not have to wait 24. I know large numbers of these people who are employed some distance away from where they live, and I know that, if they have to close their businesses, they will find the goodwill of those businesses completely gone when they resume after a period of illness. Therefore, I ask the Minister if he will examine again, and sympathetically, the claims of the self-employed people.

Some 35 years ago, this little craft of Social Insurance was launched on a largely uncharted sea by people who had a faith in their convictions, but had no knowledge of the sea upon which they were venturing to sail. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he is now the captain of a modern liner of National Insurance, equipped to deal with all eventualities. I also suggest to him that he ought to choose his crew from those people who have sailed on the sea of insurance during the last 35 years, and urge him to remember that the passengers he carries on his modern liner are some of the weakest section of this community—the people who have fallen by the wayside in adversity. If he keeps those things in mind, I can wish him "God speed" and a pleasant journey.

9.11 p.m.

In a way, it is somewhat ironical that it should fall to me to congratulate the hon. Gentleman the Member for The Hartlepools (Mr. D. Jones) on his maiden speech because, in the last Parliament, my friend, Colonel Greenwell, sat for the hon. Gentleman's constituency and was defeated by him at the General Election. Nevertheless, I most sincerely and genuinely congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his maiden speech. His predecessor set a high standard in this House, and I feel sure, from the way the hon. Gentleman has addressed the House this evening, that he will equally well speak for his constituents, and prove a worthy addition to the House of Commons.

Some hours ago, when the Prime Minister was addressing the House, he said he hoped this Bill would receive the same co-operation from all quarters of the House of Commons as did the Education Bill. That statement rather surprised me because, in the last Parliament, I remember, it was the Education Bill which brought about the defeat of the Government. I am sure the Prime Minister had not that in mind when he spoke today. But I can assure the right hon. Gentleman the Minister—and perhaps he would like to reassure the Prime Minister—that we will give even greater co-operation in respect of this Measure than was the Case with the Education Bill. Many questions have been asked today by some hon. Gentlemen opposite—in particular by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Nelson and Come (Mr. S. Silverman)—as to the attitude of the Opposition to this Bill. I should have thought it was quite obvious. One thing is quite clear—we are not vying with Labour and Liberal Members of Parliament to take the credit for it We hear from the Foreign Secretary, with regard to Foreign Affairs, about putting the cards on the table face upwards. Let us put these cards on the table face upwards. The scheme upon which this Bill is based was the product of all Parties in the last Parliament. So let us stop this nonsense of Labour Members saying it is their scheme, of Liberal Members saying it is theirs, of Liberal Nationals saying it is theirs, and of the Tory Party saying it belongs to them. It is the product of all our desires and ambitions to better the lives of the people of this country. Let us say that, and leave it at that.

I would like to add my tribute to the Minister of National Insurance for the way in which he has presented this Bill. I believe he is highly respected in all parts of the House and that all hon. Members congratulate him on the way he has introduced this great Measure. But, having said that, I must observe that I thought he introduced a considerable Party note, and that there were grave omissions in his speech. For example, many hon. Members have pleaded today the cause of the spinsters. When the right hon. Gentleman moved the second reading of the Bill, he did not mention them at all. There were many omissions from his speech, and I regret he should have apologised for addressing the House of Commons for an hour on the Second Reading of a Bill of this importance. I see no reason to apologise. He might have gone on longer, although possibly if he had gone on longer he would have come on to controversial matters, which he wished to avoid.

I want to deal with some of these matters, and the first one I want to discuss is that of old age pensions. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Nelson and Colne referred to a means test with regard to unemployment benefit, and I was very much impressed by what he said, as, I think, were most hon. Members. But, of course, that is not the only means test in the Bill. Soon after the proposals were announced there appeared in the "Manchester Guardian" headlines the exact wording of which I forget, but to the effect "The end of the means test for old age pensioners" It is nothing of the kind. There is still a means test, and let us face it. Keir Hardie has been quoted in these Debates, and quite rightly. His well known phrase was "Work or maintenance," and the slogan of the Labour Party in the constituencies was "Abolish the means test" It is not abolished. If the hon. Gentleman who is to reply can persuade me and the House otherwise, I shall be delighted, but he cannot do it.

What are the facts? We have a pension of 26s but it is called a retirement pension now—a juggling with words, and nothing else. If a person works and earns more than 20s. a week, his pension is reduced pro rata. If that is not a means test, what is? It does not end there. The other day I asked the right hon. Gentleman some questions concerning old age pensioners in relation to this scheme of social security, and from the answers he gave me it appears that there are 380,000 single old age pensioners who get a supplementary pension of more than 16s. a week. So that, presumably, they will continue to get a supplementary pension, and, as every hon. Member who comes into contact with old age pensioners knows, the disregards in relation to supplementary pensions are absolutely iniquitous. This Bill does not touch them, but they are related, so the fact will still remain that these supplementary old age pensioners will still have this means test for their supplementary pension. They will still have to get round all these disregards which, in my submission, are far too onerous, and if they have not retired and they earn more than 20s. a week they are going to have their pension reduced. There are two means tests, so I hope it will not be said that this Bill abolishes the means test for old age pensioners. It does nothing of the kind.

The second point I wish to make concerning old age pensions is this. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown) addressed the House on this matter yesterday. He said that the old age pension of 10s. which was introduced in 1919, was now worth 4s. 2d. That was based on figures, which he obtained, I believe, in the last Parliament as the result of a Question to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ten shillings is worth 4s. 2d.; 20s. is worth 8s. 4d.; I cannot quite work out what 26s. is worth, but it is round about 12s. So that in purchasing power, what we are giving old age pensioners under this Bill is a pension equivalent to 12s. That is what it amounts to.

Would the hon. Gentleman say what rate of pension he would advocate?

I am prepared to answer that. I have always advocated 30s. I would like more, but I cannot see how it can be. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about your Front Bench?"] I am not responsible for my Front Bench. I am a supporter of my Front Bench, and I would point out that there are not the schisms in my party which I observe opposite. I think the hon. Gentleman will be well advised to leave the matter at that point. I would suggest a figure of 30s., but that is not in the Bill. The reason I point this out is because of the propaganda which has been put out by the Labour Party, "Look, dear old age pensioners, we are giving you 26s. How kind and generous we are. There is no means test" Is there not? Of course, there is a means test. What about these promises of 30s. a week and no means test? You have not got 30s., you have a means test and the age is 65. Those facts should be clearly brought to the notice of the public.

When one comes to the cost, my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler), a Member of my Front Bench whom I wholeheartedly support, has already referred to the document, "Summary of Main Provisions of the National Insurance Scheme" In it you find all the increased benefits. You never find a word about increased costs. In the papers, when the Government proposals were announced, there were headlines setting out all the benefits but not a word about increased costs. Quite apart from a party point of view, and quite apart from party politics, I think we ought to tell the people of this country quite bluntly and quite frankly what the increased costs are, what they are going to be called upon to pay, because it is quite considerable. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Nelson and Colne—and I am sorry to see he is not in his place—said: "Thank goodness, we do not hear anybody from the Tory benches saying Can we afford it?" I am going to disappoint him. I think we can afford it, but it is going to be a difficult job. It is a question of getting our industries going. This Bill is a redistribution of wealth, in effect. I have no quarrel with that. But when you talk about redistributing wealth you have also got to consider creating it, and unless you go on creating wealth you will never be able to support this scheme. That is the issue which hon. Members in all quarters of the House have to appreciate.

I promised to be short. There are lots of points I would like to deal with. There is the question of the friendly societies. I think, as far as the hon. Gentleman opposite is concerned, from now onwards they will be the "not so friendly societies" That is what will happen. However, we will hear what the Minister has to say when he comes to wind up the Debate. In the last Parliament, I remember speaking—I believe I followed the right hon. Gentleman—when we had a Debate on social security; then we addressed the House in very different terms. I think our speeches will prove we both stressed the urgency of the matter, and the desirability of bringing this scheme into effect as soon as possible. How we differed was that in his view, it could be done extremely quickly, and my view was that it would take a considerable time. I think events have rather supported me and not the right hon. Gentleman. He was congratulated tonight upon the speech with which he introduced this Bill. I am afraid I cannot add my congratulations.

I am as eager as anybody that this scheme should be brought into operation and effect as soon as possible. But, reading this Bill, it is a short Bill for a scheme of this magnitude Shorter Bills are better, but you can make them too short. You can make them too disjointed; you can leave too much to Regulations; you can go all out for speed and thereby retard the progress of the very thing you wish to accelerate. I think that is what has happened with this Bill. It is difficult to consider this Measure without knowing something more, more details about the scheme for the National Health Service It is difficult to consider these matters independently. I see the Chief Government Whip has come in. I am sure, as he goes through the Lobby, he very often mutters to himself the motto. "A Bill a day keeps the Tories away" I think that is a bad motto. To rush legislation through this House does not necessarily help the people of this country.

I am in a hurry. I want it as soon as possible, but I do not think it is in the interests of the scheme itself, or the country, that it should be brought in without proper consideration and proper drafting. I am not going to detain the House any longer. I would have spoken on the spinster issue, and on the friendly societies, but all those matters have been dealt with before, and I will not repeat them. They are, I think, vital matters. Even though I think this Bill ought to have been delayed a little longer from a drafting point of view I am very glad it is now brought before the House, and that something will be brought into operation. I hope we will not hear so much from the hon. Gentlemen opposite about representing the suffering poor and we on this side of the House knowing nothing about it. I know, and everybody who travels around the industrial towns and cities of this country knows, that in the past there have been poverty, ill-health, misery and anxiety because people did not know where the next meal was coming from, or how they were to pay the rent, and many other matters. We know it on these benches as well as the hon. Gentlemen opposite know it. And quite frankly, we do not need to be told it quite so often. I hope the hon. Gentleman, when he comes to reply, will try to deal with some of the points I have raised.

9.25 p.m.

In winding up a two-days' Debate one has a rather difficult task and perhaps, the temptation to expound the virtues of the Bill for which one is responsible; and one has to choose between that and dealing with the points raised in the Debate. It is my intention, as far as I possibly can, to deal with the points which have been raised by hon. and right hon. Members; and, therefore, I hope the House will forgive me if my speech is rather disjointed, for dealing with points that have been raised tends to make a speech disjointed. I feel, however, that the House will prefer me to deal with the points that have been raised rather than to set out on a summary of the Bill.

I should like, first of all, to deal with some of the points raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler). He suggested that this Bill was rushed and that we had not taken undue time about it. We are working as quickly as we can, and I will say, frankly, we should have liked much more time. Why are we rushed? The Coalition Government took a very long while to consider the matter, and, as far as my information goes, they could not come to an agreement, and, therefore, could not come to the House. If we must get on quickly—and as far as this side of the House is concerned, we want to do what we can as quickly as we can—it is because some of these matters are so urgent; and that is why we are having to go a little too quickly for Members of the Opposition, and sometimes a little too quickly for our ease, particularly at week-ends.

We were further accused of having issued a White Paper which looked as if it had come from Transport House. [HON. MEMBERS: "No"]. I am sorry. I thought I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the White Paper had a resemblance to a document drawn up at Transport House rather than to one drawn up in Whitehall. It is not a White Paper and was not issued as a White Paper. It is a summary of the main provisions of the Bill, and was issued to enable Members of the House more quickly to assimilate what is inside the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman cannot have it all ways. Sometimes he accuses—he does not so much, but his friends behind him do much more often-civil servants of being stodgy, unimaginative, and of being unable to deal with matters in a realistic way. Sometimes they accuse Labour Ministers of being in the hands of the Civil Service. Yet, when a document is issued which, perhaps, bears some resemblance to a miner or a railway clerk having a hand in its construction, there is still objection. The difference really is that we are getting both White Papers and Bills now, whereas this House had been much more accustomed, prior to the Election in July, to getting White Papers and no Bills.

I am using the term for the convenience of Members opposite, so that they do not get confused. We were accused of being generous to the aged—

Would the hon. Gentleman deal with my main point in raising the White Paper, which was that in the Appendix the advantages were set out but the contributions to be paid were not compared with those under the previous proposals?

I quite understand that point being raised, but this is a summary of the provisions of the Bill, and it was set out in order that Members could more easily understand what was in the Bill. It was not intended to be a White Paper or to be factual. That is the difference between this and the Actuary's Report to which the right hon. Gentleman drew attention. The Actuary's Report was prepared by the Civil Service for the Minister for consideration in the Department and for the consideration of Parliament. Further, contribution has to be related to benefit.

Because we wanted the House to realise what a good thing they were getting. To continue, hon. Members opposite said that we were not being fair to the juniors. I would ask them what would they have us be to the old age pensioners? Would they have us be niggardly? We have been asked to be generous, but it was suggested that we were being generous at the expense of youth. We will be generous to youth as well. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden also raised a question with regard to school meals and those associated subjects. They will be dealt with by the Lord Privy Seal when he winds up the Debate on Monday. I would say—

On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I would like to be quite sure about this. The hon. Gentleman has stated that this document is not a White Paper. It bears the insignia [ Interruption. ]

I would point out to the hon. Member that this is not a point of Order at all.

The hon. Gentleman said it is not a White Paper but yet it bears the insignia.

I have already stated that that is not a point of Order. It may be a matter of opinion but it is not a point of Order.

I hope the hon. Member is not trying to delay me so that I cannot deal with him a little later. The point I was making was that we were accused of being generous to the aged. I would say with all sincerity that as far as right hon. and hon. Members opposite are concerned, it was they who neglected the aged between the two wars. They refused, deliberately and consistently refused, to listen to the logical and reasoned appeals on behalf of the aged. [HON. MEMBERS: "No"] Well, what did hon. Members do? They caused the old age pensioners of this country to organise to such an extent that at the present time they have become, and can claim that they are, a political pressure group, and the responsibility for them becoming a political pressure group in this country today lies with hon. and right hon. Members opposite. That is only because they consistently refused to listen to normal reasoned appeals. It was in exactly the same way that the trades union movement in this country grew, because of the neglect and refusal of hon. Members opposite, not the individual Members, but many like them, to listen to the appeals of workers in industry for reasonable conditions.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman if he would say who it was that first made trades unions possible?

I have been restricted by Mr. Speaker in my time, but I would dearly like to take a class in social history and tell hon. Members opposite about the trades union movement, how it grew, what its struggles were, and how hon. Members like the hon. and gallant Gentleman sent them abroad. Has he ever heard of the Tolpuddle martyrs?

The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden asked us whether we wanted to encourage thrift and private insurance—a very fair question to ask, and one that I am glad to answer. The Bill gives absolute minimum benefits. My right hon. Friend the Minister of National Insurance was given an almost impossible task. What was he asked to do? What are we asked to do in this Bill? We are asked to provide social security on the ability of the lowest paid worker to pay a contribution. Within a capitalist system, within a wages System which hon. Members opposite support, that is an absolute impossibility. The result is that we can give a minimum, a very meagre minimum, and that has to be supplemented. We on this side want to encourage every voluntary effort to supplement these benefits, which are national minimum benefits below which no one can go.

As far as the friendly societies are concerned, the Government hope that the wages standards which the trades union movement will be able to secure will be such that many more trades union members will be able to join the friendly society movement than at the present time, and so obtain additional benefits to those given under the scheme. We hope, too, that superannuation will be extended so that on retirement people will get something in addition to the 42s., which is not a tremendous or princely sum. The hon. Member for Darwen (Mr. Prescott) was quite right—42s. is not a magnificent benefit, but it is at least a-considerable advance on the 20s. paid at present. We want it to be improved. We encourage thrift. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have done their best—and very nearly succeeded—to kill thrift in the working class movement. They put a penalty on thrift every time a worker saved anything. When he went for unemployment benefit, if he had even tried to buy his house—as hon. Members opposite wished to encourage people to do—he was penalised. When he went for supplementary old age pension, if he had saved a little in the "Co-op" or through the trade union, he was penalised.

He will at least get 42s. before he is penalised. In the past the workers in factories, workshops and mines have asked, "What is the use of saving? We might just as well spend the money while we have it, because if we spend it we shall get some assistance, and if we save it we shall be denied assistance." The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden suggested—it is true, he only suggested—certain reductions in benefit. Before I entered the House, I had a very high regard for the right hon. Gentleman. As Minister of Education he was a Minister who knew his job. It was a delight for anybody from a local authority to meet him and feel this. He did not give us all we wanted, but when he turned us down he was, at any rate, prepared to say why he did so. He had the courage to make a decision and to say why he made it. But he did not have that courage yesterday. He said that we might misrepresent him and say that he was suggesting that old age pensions should be reduced by 6s. a week. I ask the right hon. Gentleman what other construction could be put on the suggestions which he made? He told the House that if old age pensions were put at 21s., it would mean a reduction in the contribution of 7d. a week. The right hon. Gentleman must have got that informa- tion from a very authoritative source, because it is absolutely correct. We will not ask him whence it came. Making the old age pension 21s. for a single person and 42s. for two, would make a difference of 7d. a week in the contribution. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that we did not consider that point? We considered it very seriously.

Why was it that we came to the conclusion that the correct method in regard to old age pensions was the same as that for sickness and unemployment? It was for the simple reason that, we were convinced, as a result of our consultations and research, that it costs more for the single old age pensioner to live than for a couple living together. The Assistance Board showed to us that the rent factor, which is a very large one, is very often the same in the case of double pensioners as of single pensioners. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that we should go to the Coalition White Paper standard for the existing pensioner and to the new standard for those who make contributions. Would that be justice? Would not that be creating far more anomalies than exist at present? One of the main purposes of this Bill.—and the reason why my right hon. Friend resisted, and very successfully resisted, pressure from a large section of his own supporters for not dealing specially with old age pensioners or sections of old age pensioners—is to tidy things up, reduce anomalies and treat everyone, as soon as possible, on the same basis. The suggestion which has been made would create more anomalies and not deal fairly with one class of pensioner as against another, because, after all, it is no fault of existing old age pensioners that they were on pension before this Government came into office. Having helped to put them into office, why should they be penalised for doing so? We do not deal with these things in that way. The right hon. Gentleman also asked what was the position with regard to teachers' superannuation?

The hon. Gentleman uses the word "penalized." The whole case which I made was that in relation to the rest of the contributing population, the old age pensioners are to receive more in proportion, and many of them more than their contributions record would justify. It was not a question of penalis- ing them. It was in that spirit that I put forward the suggestion.

Of course, they will receive more than that. It is a very good bargain not only for existing old age pensioners but for anyone who is going to contribute for not more than 15 years—a very good bargain indeed. As far as that insurance is concerned, no insurance company in the world would ever take it up in any shape or form. The position of existing pensioners is very little different from the position of those who come within pensionable age within the next five years. The right hon. Gentleman, asked what was to be the position, particularly in regard to teachers' superannuation. May I say here—and the point was also raised this evening by the hon. Member for The Hartlepools (Mr. David Jones)—that the position so far as superannuation is concerned in local government, in the railway service and in private concerns is exactly the same as that of friendly societies, with ancillary benefits. My right hon. Friend hopes that every superannuation scheme which now exists will continue to exist in the shape and in the form in which it now exists and that the benefits which come from this Measure will be in addition to those which exist now.

That is our desire, but for the reasons which the hon. Member for The Hartlepools pointed out, we appreciate that such a desire may not be always possible. There is a limit to the extent to which a charge on a small wage can be made for insurance payments. That being so, it is perhaps desirable in some cases, and it may be necessary in some cases, that there should be modification of some of the existing superannuation schemes. If that be so, it is the desire of the Minister—if he had the power he would like to make it compulsory—that any variation in the existing superannuation funds, should only be made in consultation with the members of those funds, generally the employees, and the sponsors of the funds, who are generally the employers.

In so far as the teachers are concerned—and they have been specifically mentioned—the position would remain as it is at the moment. If there is to be any discussion it must be between the teachers' representatives, the Ministry of Education, and the Treasury. No doubt this will be done in the ordinary way. A further point raised by the hon. Member for The Hartlepools was that of a man leaving industry at 60 and he referred, I think, to engine men of the Great Western Rail way. It is an urgent necessity in so far as production within this country is concerned that a man should remain in industry as long as it is possible to carry on and as long as that industry is congenial and the man is fit to discharge the work. However, if workers have to retire before the normal retiring age, then under this Bill there are only two things which can happen. When they retire they become non-employed persons and they have to pay the non-employed persons' contribution. If they retire from an industry which requires them to do so, they can make themselves available for re-employment in some other industry and become insured workers. They can only be in one of those two classes, for they must remain in insurance until they reach the age of 65.

The next point with which I should like to deal is the Clause which has been referred to as the transitional unemployment benefit Clause. It was suggested that because this Clause is included in the Bill His Majesty's Government are defeatists. They are not defeatists, they are realists. This war has dislocated industry in a manner in which it will take a great deal of ingenuity to overcome. Members opposite were associated with the Government who had done their best in the years before the war to destroy many of the industries. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Members say "No" but what about the depressed areas between the wars? It is appreciated by His Majesty's Government that during the next five years, which is a transitional period, there will be pockets of unemployment in some parts of this country, despite all the good will and power and organisation and skill of the Government. [ Laughter. ] Hon. Members opposite may laugh, but he who laughs last laughs loudest.

As I say there are bound to be pockets of unemployment arising through failure, within industry, over the past 20 years. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The tragedy at the moment is that unemployment is now showing itself in the very areas where distress was acutest between the wars. My right hon. and learned Friend the President of the Board of Trade is doing his best to establish industries where industries were not placed before, where there is no alternative employment, in what I might call single4ndustry areas. In those places there will, perhaps, be the necessity—we hope not—for long term unemployment. If that is so then that unemployment is not the responsibility of an insurance fund. The Government take the view that in the event of there being long term unemployment in any area, from peculiar causes, the responsibility for that unemployment, and the cost of it, is with the Treasury, and not with the fund. That is within the Bill. Although my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) did not mention it. There is, first of all, 30 weeks' benefit, then there is added days' benefit. After these two benefits have been exhausted there will be, at the existing rates, a further period of benefit, subject only to one condition: In the area there will be a local tribunal which will determine conditions, those being the industrial conditions and none other. They will determine whether or not there is work available in the area and, if so, whether a person is available for that work.

The Clause says, "May be" and not, "Shall be". Further, the Clause provides that the particular circumstances should include the local industrial conditions, which means that it would also include something else. What is the something else?

I spent a long time in Standing Committee A with 17 lawyers, and I am not now going to try to argue with another lawyer as to the meaning of words in a Bill. All I would say is, that it is the intention of my right hon. Friend, and the Government, that where there is specific long-term unemployment and pockets of unemployment, the cost of dealing with it will be transferred to the Treasury. What will be the factors with which we must deal? There are some people who will not work, if they can avoid it. They are known everywhere. They can be found quite easily in normal-sized towns, and small villages. The manager of the employment exchange, and many others, can tell who they are. But it is more difficult to find them in London, Birmingham or Liverpool. The factors which the tribunal would deal with would be whether there was work in the area, and whether a person was available for that work. If those factors were satisfied there would be automatic payment of benefit to the individual. There may be other factors; for instance, a person may be single without a home, and be required to move to another place to take a job there. In that case, the displacement factor would also be taken into account. My hon. Friend the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne ought to know my right hon. Friend. This does not mean that we are going back to the means test; it does not mean that we are going back to the "genuinely seeking work" Clause. If for no other reason than the fact that my right hon. Friend is associated with this Bill, the hon. Member should appreciate that fact, because, let me assure him that, if he does not, I know myself that my right hon. Friend would not be associated with the Bill if that was what it meant.

I have the utmost confidence in the integrity and intentions not only of the right hon. Gentleman but also of this Government, and I am sure that if they say that they do not intend to go back to a means test they really mean it. I apologise for being a lawyer, but I assure the Parliamentary Secretary that the interpretation of the words in an Act of Parliament is a matter of law, and I would ask him whether he will undertake to get the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown as to whether Clause 61 means what I said it means.

In regard to the latter observation of my hon. Friend, I would say that he is in complete agreement with the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) who informed me in exactly the same words in Standing Committee A in so far as the meaning of the words in Acts of Parliament is concerned.

I am not interested in the interpretation of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) but in that of the Law Officers of the Crown, and I would accept their decision.

I can assure the hon. Member that that point will be satisfied so far as the Committee is concerned. "Why not use the Assistance Board?"

was the question asked by the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden. For the simple reason that the Assistance Board is a Board to which persons go requiring assistance, and when they go, there is a consideration as to the need they have and the ability that may exist in their own circle to meet that need. It would be, and is, a Board in the main where people go for supplementary assistance, and if they do go for supplementary assistance, then the whole question of need arises.

May I now deal with the question of the self-employed person and the 24 waiting days? I am really surprised that hon. Members opposite should have become so interested in this matter, because this is a recommendation which was included in the previous White Paper and was, I understand, agreed to by the House at that time. In fact, the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) waxed eloquent and required Beveridge, Beveridge, and nothing but Beveridge, and seemed to overlook the fact that as far as the Beveridge Report is concerned, the waiting period recommended was 13 weeks and that the Coalition Government reduced that 13 weeks to 24 days. Why is a 24 days' waiting period recommended? First of all, the sickness benefits in this Bill are to replace earnings which are lost. As soon as the normal worker ceases to clock in nothing goes into his wage packet, and if a salaried worker is sick it is usual for his employer to deduct from his salary the benefit which he receives under insurance. This payment, therefore, is in respect of lost wages or salary.

The same conditions do not apply to the self-employed person in the majority of cases. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Because if the average shopkeeper is sick the shop remains open with his wife or someone else carrying on. His income does not cease. As far as an employer is concerned, if he is away from work the business does not stop, in fact, it often goes on very much better. There are different classes of these people. The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery referred to the village blacksmith. It is true that when the village blacksmith is ill the smithy does not open and he does not do his work. Self-employed persons' incomes continue, in the majority of cases, at least for some time. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Let me just tell hon. Members a little bit about insurance. If a self-employed person went to an insurance company to insure against sickness, in the majority of cases he would not be paid for at least three months, and generally it would be six months.

On that point, may I tell the Minister that I had an insurance policy of that kind before the war? I used to pay a premium of 5s. per week and, to the best of my recollection, I used to start receiving benefit after seven days. The benefit was about £3, in addition to which there were other substantial rewards.

Of course, I agree that there may be policies like that. There are some which start on the first day, but they are the exceptions. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] As far as we are concerned, it is a question of cost. If the self-employed person is prepared to pay, then—[An HON. MEMBER: "How much"]—it would cost the self-employed person a further 4½d. per week under the Bill. If the proposal were made in Committee, we should be prepared to consider the matter very favourably. My right hon. Friend has been very concerned about the size of the contribution. It is not only the shopkeeper who has to be considered but the street trader, and the contribution is already 5s. 1d. Another 4½d. makes it 6s. 1½d., which is a large sum out of the pocket of the small self-employed person. The higher we make the contribution, the more difficult is the collection and the less possibility one has of enforcement. One generally finds that, as far as people who need the benefit most are concerned, there is a difficulty of enforcement.

I would like to get this point quite clear. Do I understand the Minister to say that if the private, self-employed person is prepared to pay an extra 4½d. per week, he can get sickness benefit after three days as though he were an employed man?

According to the information received from the Government Actuary, to bring such a person into the same conditions—which is what I understand is asked for—as Class 1 contributors, would cost the contributor 4½d. more and would cost the Treasury £1,000,000.

Yes, Sir, but I cannot say now that the Government are prepared to accept it. I can say now that as far as the Committee stage is concerned, if self-employed persons are prepared to pay an additional contribution, His Majesty's Government are prepared to look favourably upon an Amendment which may be placed upon the Order Paper.

I too should like to get this matter quite clear. What is the proportion of the cost that the Treasury is prepared to pay, in regard to the self-employed person? Has it the same relationship to the contribution as in the case of those who are employed?

I have only 10 minutes more in which to speak. I would much prefer to deal with this matter in Committee. I should like to pass on to the question of spinsters. The point has been raised as to our reason for not bringing pensions down to 55 years of age. What is the reason for demanding pensions at 55? It is not a question of insurance; it embraces social, industrial, and economic problems. The problem arises mainly in Yorkshire and Lancashire, where it originated, and where it is strongest, because the young women of this country who had to remain in industry have been worn out by the bad conditions in the mills. It is the intention of this Government to use greater efforts than previous Governments to assist the trades union movement in bringing pressure upon employers with bad factory conditions. If we can improve those conditions, it will be done. These women are very often sick, and, as they are not as vital as they might be, they are more often unemployed.

Both these conditions are met under this Bill. If the woman is sick she draws sickness benefit; if she is unemployed she draws unemployment benefit; in addition to which there are health provisions for which the Minister of Health will be responsible. As a result of the national health service which he will institute, I think the opportunity of these women to maintain their vigour and their ability to earn and to enjoy life, will be the greater With improvements in factory conditions the necessity for the earlier retirement age will cease to be so urgent. There are a large number of other workers who, it this concession were made, would be demanding specialised treatment, and have a very good case for it. I can think of miners and seamen who have already made an application for consideration because of the arduous nature of their duties.

Perhaps I ought to say that a statement has been circulated to Members in regard to the actuarial position of widows' pensions. I cannot go into all the provisions within that statement but it included figures; one figure was unintentionally omitted—included in the women's contribution is the national health factor of 8d. per week which was not taken into account at all. If the pension at 55 were to be given to women, and the cost of that pension only charged to women within industry, the cost would be is per week for women from 18 to 55 years of age. Other factors in that statement are not correct. There is the question of a woman's expectation of life, which is suggested as 62½—that is not true nowadays. Conditions have improved, and the expectation of life is 68 years of age at birth, and in fact, the expectation of life of a woman at 60 years of age is 18 years, so that the whole actuarial basis of the statements made was incorrect.

I will now turn to approved societies. The hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marlowe) interjected in the Debate last evening in regard to letters which I had sent to friendly societies—letters which the hon. and learned Member had not with him. As far as I am concerned personally, two letters have been sent to friendly societies within my constituency, both of them to the Secretary of the National United Order of Free Gardeners Friendly Society at Rushden. The first letter, dated 28th March, 1945—well before the General Election—contains the following:

Would the hon. Gentleman agree that on 29th June he was sent from the friendly societies a document which asks the question:

"If elected to Parliament, will you support the friendly societies to be retained as responsible agents of the Government under the new scheme of National Insurance in the administration of sickness and allied benefits?"

Did he say "Yes" to that and put his signature to it?

All I remember is these letters—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer, 'Yes or No'"]—I cannot really say.

Would the hon. Gentleman like to see what I have before me and see whether it is his signature?

Yes, I think it is.

It being a quarter past Ten o'clock, the Debate stood adjourned.

Debate to be resumed upon Monday next.

Ex-Servicemen (Employment)

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. R. J. Taylor. ]

10.15 p.m.

I desire to raise the question of employment of ex-Servicemen. I realise that there are problems like a general wages policy for industry and problems resulting from a switchover from wartime to a peacetime production. Although they involve greater numbers of men I am sure the House will agree that this aspect of the Ministry's work is one which is vitally important. Thousands of men are returning to civilian life now who have spent five or six years in uniform, and for various reasons some do not wish, or have not the opportunity, to pick up the threads of civilian life which they left when their country called them some years ago. These men have two main feelings as they return. One is that they have done a job of work faithfully and well, and the other that they seek only to do as useful a job in peace as they did in war. Many of them received many promises during the latter part of their service life. They received a good deal of literature dealing with vocational training, further educational schemes, and resettlement offers, in addition to which there was a good deal of talk about labour shortage in civilian life. All the men felt that they would be welcomed back into civilian life with open arms but a good many of them since returning have been largely disillusioned. Many have gone to resettlement bureaux and inquired about the possibility of vocational training, but I am afraid many have been disappointed if not disillusioned when it has come to the hard fact of getting a vocational training course.

On 18th December my right hon. Friend announced that 41 trades were covered by these vocational training courses. But only 20 of these on that date had actually got into operation, and I believe that most of these 20 had a big waiting list of people who desired training. The Minister's figures on 18th January were something like 6,000 men who had been accepted for training and 9,000 on the waiting list for training. That is not the complete picture. Many people have gone for a course but have been turned down altogether. In one case a constituent of mine who was a clerk for ten years, and, as a Territorial joined up in 1939, wrote to me of his experience when he came out of the Army last year. He said: why he was not eligible was that he had been taken from a job in 1939 for which he had been properly trained at the time. I had another case of a young fellow who joined up at the age of 24, and he too, when he left, held a very junior position as a clerk. He spent six years in the Army, and during that time he achieved a position of some responsibility. When he came out he went along hoping to get a vocational training course as a fitter. He was told, "No, you cannot be a fitter; you can be either a painter or a builder." He then asked if he could have some training in his old calling, as a clerk, and they said "No, you cannot have that because you have not been wounded." I tried to explain to the man when he came to me that the Minister probably realised that the engineering trade had already sufficient men for its immediate and future requirements. I also pointed out to him that in order to absorb disabled men it was possible they were reserving certain professions for them. The point is that this man went along to the labour office and was just turned down flat. There was no attempt at explanation. It seems to me that a good many of these people are coming along and hoping to take some vocational training course, but that the attitude of the officers who interview them appears to be one of trying to find an excuse on which to turn down the applications.

Another young fellow came to me and told me his experience. He had a brilliant war record. He went along feeling that of all the courses that had been listed in these brilliantly coloured pamphlets there must be one which would be open to him, but they went through the lot and for one reason or another—either it had not started or he was not eligible—he was turned down. He said, "Surely there must be something for me," and the answer was, "Oh, you are not the first who has been sucked in." Whereas I can appreciate the difficulties of the Minister of Labour in this regard, I do feel that he should be a little more generous in the interpretation of the eligibility Clause. There are many people who were trained for junior posts, which they left five or six years ago, who, during the war, have developed potentialities which I feel should be encouraged rather than suppressed now they are coming back into civilian life.

There is another type of case with which I have had a good deal of experience and which includes some very real tragedies. That is the case of men who have served in two wars and who have come out of the last one aged about 45 years. These people have occupied, both before the war and during the war, positions of some responsibility but, for various reasons, they now find themselves unable to open up the businesses which they had before the war. I have one case of a man who was an advertising agent; paper restrictions make it impossible for him to open up again. Board of Trade Regulations in other industries prevent two other cases of which I have knowledge from opening up their previous businesses. A good many of them, were engaged in commissioned enterprises. They were earning good money before the war but now because, quite rightly, the sort of luxury trades in which they were engaged before the war are being discouraged, they find there is no opening for their ability and organising capacities.

I am sure that something could be done for these men. They represent valuable, wealth-producing personnel, and I should like to know from my right hon Friend, if he can tell me, the sort of possibilities that are open to these men of about 45 who have had positions of some responsibility, who have had experience of handling numbers of men, who have held in industry positions requiring considerable organising ability and who, I feel, would be first-rate men in the kind of industries which the nation is taking over. I wonder whether there is sufficient co-ordination between the Ministry of Labour and certain other Ministries which are, at the present time, developing national enterprises?

I realise that the appointment offices which the Ministry has opened were set up to deal precisely with this type of person, but I am not sure that the appointment offices are fulfilling the role which it was expected they should play. I have tried to get the figures of men who have registered at those appointment offices, but my right hon. Friend told me it was not possible to supply them. If, however, it is possible to give some indication of what is being done for these people, I should be grateful. Is the assistance and the co-operation of employers being sought? How many applicants have been on the register for 56 days, during which their leave pay has come to an end; and are still on that register? Has any research been undertaken into the type of person who still remains on the register, and what plans have the Government for re-training these people for something useful? Many of them would be glad to open up constructive businesses as against what I would call the commissioned enterprises, the speculative enterprises, which they had before the war. Can we fit them in to the general industrial scheme which the Government have in mind? If we can do none of these things, is it not possible to tell them, before they come out of the Services, exactly what the position is and why it is so? The last thing we must do is to build up their hopes before they come out, otherwise the disillusionment which follows will have serious social repercussions.

There were a number of possibilities and suggestions that I would have liked to make in detail about the work of the appointment officers and the resettlement advice bureaux. I would like to be assured, for example, that only experienced people in these various offices for the purpose of interviewing the ex-Servicemen when they come along. Is the interviewing being done with sufficient privacy? Do the officers have a sufficient background of the Government's policy, or are they only there to answer questions instead of giving background advice? A lot of people tell me that they go there, their minds are not made up, they do not quite know what it is they want to do, and the officers interviewing them seem at a loss to give them the general background possibilities that are open. They could answer a definite question, they could refer to a definite booklet, but they do not appear in a position to give the sort of experienced and authoritative advice which so many of these people would appreciate.

I want, if I may be allowed without appearing presumptuous, to say a few words to the Minister before he answers my queries. It seems to me that the position of the Minister of Labour at the present time is one that is absolutely vital. My right hon. Friend on one occasion, in a discussion on demobilisation, described himself as only a bottleneck, that he received applications from Service Depart- ments, and he attempted to fulfil those demands by sending instructions to other Departments. I conceive that the role of the Minister at the present time is something much more than a bottleneck. I look upon him as being a personnel manager, and a personnel manager in industry is one of the most important positions in the modern set-up. I therefore ask him that, in so far as the hopes of these men are incapable of fulfilment, he will look upon it as a duty to keep them up-to-date as to why certain things cannot be done, what are the difficulties involved, and what is being done to overcome the difficulties. Can he use the radio more than he is doing so that the men coming out know exactly what is facing them and what the circumstances are when they do come out?

10.32 p.m.

I must say that the hon. and gallant Member has made his case on very flimsy material. He has told us that a good many of these men have seen him when they have returned to civilian life and that he has made a good many inquiries; but he has given only three examples, and in not one of them does he give me anything on which to check. He has said that many of them have been turned down. Where does he get that information? One case which he quoted was that of a clerk, who already has a trade in his hands and wants to be trained for some other business. It is a difficult enough business getting those who have trades in their hands back into the industries in which they belong without having to bother about those who want to change their trades, and we should certainly not do what the hon. and gallant Member wants unless there was a special reason. If every man who comes along after coming out of the Forces does not want to go back to his old job and wants a new job, we shall not know whom to place in the old jobs there were before. The hon. and gallant Member also asked about a young clerk who wanted to become a fitter. During the war the engineering trade was simply flooded with young dilutees who wanted to become fitters, and they had to be placed somehow. It would be simply madness for us to encourage men like these who could come out and get jobs as clerks to take another trade.

The hon. and gallant Member then referred to some friends who held positions of responsibility and said that they had businesses before the war. It is a little difficult to understand whether he meant that they were in employed positions of responsibility, or whether they ran their own businesses. He answered the question himself in some ways. They could not themselves get other posts because trade has not yet recovered sufficiently to offer other vacancies. This is a big problem. When we can get more of our people out of the Forces back into industry, and get industry into normal working order, there will be many of these higher posts to be filled. The hon. and gallant Member asks me if something can be done for these men. Let me assure him—and I can give him the figures in a moment—that a lot is being done for them though it is true that some of them are disappointed and do not get what they want.

The hon. and gallant Member referred to the appointments officers and asked whether they were fulfilling their purposes. They are fulfilling their purposes, even beyond the expectations of those who established these services during the Coalition Government. They are doing a jolly good job. Something like 30 men, all ex-Servicemen and officers, are employed upon this work of finding vacancies and encouraging vacancies to be made for the men who are coming out of the Forces. It is only right to say that we are receiving most cordial co-operation from employers, but one cannot expect employers to say, "I have no vacancy but I will take you on." They say, "Let us see his capabilities, and we will find a vacancy when we can" We have heard the re-settlement officers spoken about today. One reference was made to a man who was sent for three times for interview, and then told that nothing could be done for him. But he would surely be more satisfied after three interviews—

Surely that is rather unfair. He was turned down because of his statement made seven weeks earlier that he was a clerk. Why did it take seven weeks for a decision to be made?

During those seven weeks the case was being investigated, the register was being searched, and opportunities were being taken to see if there was a possibility of getting this man a job. The staff of the Ministry of Labour—and I have until now never heard any complaint about their activity—wanted more information about it.

This man applied for a vocational training course and was turned down after seven weeks because he was not eligible as he had had a trade before he went into the Army. These people did have a trade, but six years have elapsed, and the old trade is no longer suitable.

I am sorry if I have misunderstood the hon. and gallant Gentleman. Every effort is made to look round and assist these people. We should find, if we had the full facts, that this was due to the Ministry looking round to see what could be done. I wonder if my hon. and gallant Friend has been to our re-settlement advice offices—

Well, the interview takes place in an interview room set aside for the purpose.

That is merely taking down particulars and filling up a form that can be handed over to an investigator. The man who takes the original particulars is a man at the counter who merely gets the form filled up to prevent the highly skilled man—and he is often an ex-officer—from wasting his time taking down particulars. I have been to many of these offices, and all of these people are experienced. I am surprised to hear that one of our employment exchange officials is reported as saying "You are not the first one that has been sucked in." I think that should have been reported, so that that official could have been sucked out instead of being sucked in.

My hon. and gallant Friend asked if I would explain to the men about these matters when they came out. The placings of the appointments office during 1945 were 21,549. The figures for the Scientific and Technical Register show that during 1945, mostly during the latter part, the appointments service placed 8,081. So that this service, which my hon. and gallant Friend, with only two or three examples, says is doing no work, has placed about 30,000 people. Another point to be mentioned in this connection—and I think it is a good sign—is that some of those who come to our appointments service offices have come out of the Services with an exaggerated idea of their own value. When they come to the offices it is not unusual for them to say, "I was a clerk before I went into the Forces; I was promoted, and got a commission." Many of them honourably earned' them, and have shown great capacity, and naturally they do not want to go back to the humdrum of their ordinary life. They say "I will take a job at £1,000 or £800 a year." But that kind of job does not grow on trees like Christmas crackers. Those jobs do not exist. If any employer is willing to pay that money he wants somebody of outstanding ability and knowledge. I am glad to say that, arising out of the interest of the late Lord Mayor of London, a special business training committee has been established so that men coming from the Forces who have shown ability, energy and leadership, can have the opportunity of being specially trained for business careers where they can go to positions of managerial status and position of higher responsibility.

With regard to the ordinary vocational training schemes, it is true that these are not getting into operation as rapidly as we could wish, but it must be remembered that the Japanese ended the war without giving us proper notice. That upset things a little bit. We promptly began to demobilise people. Therefore, with the war ending a little earlier than we had anticipated, we were bringing out far more men than anyone dreamed would be "brought out. We were not able to get all the services ready and were demobilising so great a number of people.

What is the situation now? We have 30 centres operating, with 12,000 places for training. Eight permanent and 15 temporary centres will be opened in the next three months, bringing the total up to 20,000. Twenty-four new places are planned, and therefore, by the end of the year, we shall have 77 training centres in operation, providing places for 33,500 people. That ought to mean a turn-out, on six-months training courses, of about 66,000 trainees a year. The work is handicapped by the fact that we have to build premises in many instances, and, of course, there is always a bit of an argument whether builders should be used for this or for building houses or factories. We have to balance these things. There is another difficulty. Take, the furnishing trade, for instance. It is not much good setting up our training centres for the furnishing trade, because there is a shortage of raw materials. Therefore, there is a shortage of work in the trade. It is no good training men if there is not the raw material for them when they are trained and there is a shortage of work in the trade. In other instances, such as the watch-repairing classes, we had to wait to get special tools from Switzerland, and that made a little more delay.

One other thing is congestion at the appointment offices. We have had difficulties because the offices have been far more popular than we anticipated they would be. We had to move out of our London Office, in Sardinia Street, into a larger office. That office today is not sufficiently large, but we had to take it. Already in London we are interviewing 2,000 applicants a week for courses in the special appointments training. There we have the assistance of officers from each of the three Services who are dealing with the cases. Nearly every one of the interviewing officers is an ex-Serviceman. It is not possible to go over the whole of the ground, but I would like to refer to these resettlement centres. There are 370 resettlement advice offices open in each of the towns where we have a central exchange, so that in 1,000 of our offices we now have a service of resettlement advice. Up to 31st December we had over 750,000 inquiries, and at present the inquiries are running at the rate of over 30,000 a week.

I am sorry it is not possible for me to deal more fully with this excellent service, run by an excellent staff to whom the country and the men who go to the offices owe a sincere expression of gratitude for the-help and kindness extended to them. I am sorry if the cases which my hon. and gallant Friend has met have given him any disappointment

It being a quarter to Eleven o'Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order, as modified for this Session by the Order made upon 16th August