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Commons Chamber

Volume 424: debated on Thursday 27 June 1946

House of Commons

Thursday, June 27, 1946

The House met at Half past Two o'Clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]

Private Business

RUSHDEN DISTRICT GAS BILL [Lords]

Bill read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments. — ( King's Consent signified. )

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Wallasey) Bill

Read the Third time, and passed.

West Midlands Joint Electricity Authority Provisional Order Bill

Read the Third time, and passed.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Norwich) Bill

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time Tomorrow.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Motoring Offences, London

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the number of motoring offences for which summonses were issued in May, 1945, in the Metropolitan area; and the number issued for May, 1946.

Particulars of the number of summonses issued in respect of motoring offences in the Metropolitan Police District could not be obtained without considerable time and labour. The number of summonses for these offences which were dealt with by the courts was 3,166 in May, 1945, and 7,356 in May, 1946.

Can the Home Secretary give any reason for the large increase in the number of summonses before the courts?

There are several reasons. One is that the number of cars actually in use has practically doubled. Another is that the police, now that the war is over, have more time to deal with the kind of offences with which it is necessary to deal if security and safety are to be secured on the roads.

Is my right hon. Friend prepared to abolish the system, introduced during the war, whereby one police constable on a motorcycle was able to lay information for a summons?

I am having the whole question of necessary reforms that should be instituted examined, and I would not like to give an expression of opinion about any particular reform at the moment.

Aliens

Personal Cases

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now considered the case of M. Roger Boutinot, who has been ordered to leave this country, despite the fact that he is married to an English-woman and that he came to this country in an open boat at the fall of France, served in the Second Paratroop Regiment of the Special Air Service and was awarded the Medaille Militaire Français, English Military Medal and the Croix de Guerre with five citations.

This man is a serving French soldier who was allowed to come here on a visit during his leave. If and when he has been demobilised I shall be prepared to consider whether he may settle in this country.

Will the Home Secretary say when he can announce a general policy on this question? This is only one of many instances of a similar kind.

No, Sir, I have to examine the claims of each of these cases on their individual merits. It would be very unwise to give a general indication which might appear to be either too generous, or too harsh.

May I ask for the mistake in the French to be corrected? It should be "Médaille Militaire Française." I hope I am not being pedantic.

That observation should be addressed to the person who put down the Question, and not to the person who answers it.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say what principles he applies in determining each individual case on its merits?

No, I think it would be exceedingly difficult in answer to a question to make a statement which could cover all the considerations I have to have in mind. I regard allowing these people to come here as a privilege which they have to justify, and I do not think the onus is upon me to prove why I should reject them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is yet in a position to reply to the letter which was sent to him by the Member for Acocks Green, on 30th April, in regard to Tony Trubacik and his British-born wife who are anxious to come from Czechoslovakia to live with Mrs. Trubacik's parents in Birmingham.

My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State wrote to my hon. Friend on 17th June.

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he realises that in the reply I received just after I put down the Question, the Minister indicated that this gentleman had no claim to settle in the British Isles? Is it not a fact that he has no legal right, but that as one who has fought in the Allied Forces, he surely has some claim? Will the right hon. Gentleman consider that claim?

The statement made on behalf of this gentleman was that he could be afforded employment. The firm say they will only give employment if he is naturalised, and he does not yet satisfy the requirement for that.

Having regard to the large number of cases brought to the notice of hon. Members, is it not felt that a much more humanitarian approach is required?

I am having this constantly under review. As the situation in certain respects becomes easier, I hope it will be possible to adopt a more liberal attitude.

Is it not a fact that if this man can get employment in this country he can come here? Would that be all right?

No, I would not like to give as emphatic an answer as that in reply to a supplementary question. The statement made when the application was submitted was not borne out when investigation was made.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why Dr. H. S. Zedner, a refugee from Nazi Germany and a lawyer and notary of 25 years' standing, has been refused permission to practise as an international lawyer in this country.

I understand that Dr. Zedner is not qualified to practise as a barrister or solicitor in this country, but in so far as he can use for professional purposes his knowledge of international law, there is no objection so far as the Home Office is concerned, and I am causing Dr. Zedner to be so informed.

While expressing my thanks to my right hon. Friend for this revised and more reasonable view, might I ask him if he can explain to the House how it came about that the permission he is now prepared to give, could not be given without the necessity of putting down a Question?

No, Sir. As I understand it, the original application was that this man should be allowed to practise as a lawyer in this country. For that he has no qualifications. I am prepared to allow him to exercise his qualifications on the lines I have indicated.

Will my right hon. Friend look at the matter again in order to assure himself of what I am assured is the fact, that all for which this man ever applied is what my right hon. Friend says he will give him, and that no application was ever made to allow a man who is not a barrister or a solicitor to practise as such?

I am bound to say that I was so anxious that I should give a correct answer to my hon. Friend that I looked at the papers again at about 12.30 p.m. today, and I think that an examination of the papers will bear out what I have said.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why, in view of the fact that he has granted to Mr. L. Weingarten, a Jewish refugee from Germany settled with his family in business in India for the past eight years, a visa to visit this country on business grounds, he has refused Mrs. Weingarten permission to bring their 10-year-old daughter to be educated in this country, that being the ordinary and medically necessary course in the case of European children of this age.

My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State has already informed my hon. Friend that in view of additional information subsequently received from him visas have been authorised for Mrs. Weingarten and her daughter.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the additional information received from me, on which these visas have now been granted, was received by the Home Office in a letter from me prior to the refusal which prompted the putting down of this Question on the Order Paper? No further information has been or could be given since my original letter, because there was none.

The additional information was given in conversation by my hon. Friend after a Motion for the Adjournment had been debated the other evening. I have checked up on the papers and I have found that that information was not contained in the original correspondence.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why permission has been refused Miss Lola Schenker, who is an American citizen and was living with her parents in this country before the war, and was evacuated to America in 1940 when a child of 13 years, to rejoin her family or even to visit them; and if he will reconsider this decision in view of the hardship involved.

No application for a visa for this girl has within recent date been referred by the passport control officer in New York or made direct to my Department. My hon. Friend was informed in a letter of 29th January that, when it was possible to relax the restrictions which were then necessary, I would be prepared to give sympathetic consideration to an application by Miss Schenker for a visa for a visit to her relations here. I am inquiring of our representative in New York whether her application has been renewed there.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this little girl, aged 13, was living with her parents here in 1940, that she was evacuated to America, and that, the war being over, her family desired that she should rejoin them, and is there any possible justification for allowing the family in this case to be without that little girl?

The answer is that no application has been received since facilities have been available, and I really cannot grant applications until I have received them.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that previous applications have been made by myself for the admission of this girl?

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster why appropriate papers and facilities have been refused to Miss Dorothea Cornelia Spetzbact, 15 Kaiseernhixon, Essen, who was born in British South-West Africa, on 21st March, 1918, to enable her to marry Mr. Walter Moore, Nelson, Lancashire, lately demobilised from His Majesty's forces.

I have been asked to reply. In consultation with the Home Office this case is being investigated and my hon. Friend will be informed of the outcome as quickly as possible.

Would my hon. Friend do his best to expedite the investigation, which I am informed has been going on for many months?

Expedition will be assured, but I am afraid my hon. Friend is wrongly informed when he says that the investigation has been going on for some months.

Admission of Children

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department under what conditions, and subject to what supervision, are children admitted to this country in parties from Poland.

The conditions on which children are admitted to this country vary according to whether they are coming for a recuperative visit or to join relatives, or for ultimate emigration. Parties of children from the Continent are admitted when I am satisfied that a responsible organisation has made adequate arrangements for their accommodation, maintenance, health and welfare, and also for their return home if they are admitted for a recuperative visit.

Would it be practicable for my right hon. Friend to circulate a list of what he considers to be responsible organisations in the sense of his reply?

I should be sorry to do that because I might not know of a particular organisation which I might be able to accept as being responsible.

Distressed Relatives Scheme

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many of the 979 people admitted to the United Kingdom under the scheme announced in November, 1945, came here from concentration camps or camps for displaced persons in Germany and/or Austria; how many of such persons were in each of the priority categories set out in that scheme and how many were Jews.

As the answers to the various points raised are rather long and contain a number of figures, I will with permission, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any have come from displaced persons' camps in Germany? If not, what is the reason, other than the question of transport?

Will my right hon. Friend look at the official proceedings of two days ago, when he will see that his hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster told me, in reply to a supplementary question, that not one person had so far benefited or had arrived in this country?

Following is the statement:

The statistics kept in the Home Office of foreigners admitted under the distressed relatives scheme are based on arrivals at ports in the United Kingdom and do not show the place from which an individual started his journey. It is occasionally known from other sources that an individual has come from a camp in Germany or Austria, but the complete total of such cases could be obtained only by examination of the records in the passport control offices in Germany and Austria, and I am reluctant to divert the staffs there from the more important work of examining the very numerous applications and expediting the issue of visas to qualified persons as soon as they have obtained permits to leave Germany.

The classification into categories of the 979 foreigners who had been identified up to 31st May as arriving under this scheme has not yet been completed. An analysis of 878 of the cases shows:

As I informed my hon. Friend the Member for North Salford (Mr. McAdam) on 6th June, the statistics kept by my Department do not classify foreigners according to race or to religion, and I am therefore unable to say how many of these persons are Jews.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why Mr. Sztajnhart, now in Brussels, has been refused permission to visit his relatives in London, upon the ground that he does not qualify as a distressed person for a visa for the United Kingdom, although he was five years in Auschwitz concentration camp and is the sole survivor of a family comprising his parents, three sisters and three brothers; what is the accepted definition of a distressed person; and whether he will take steps to see that the policy of his Department, in this respect, is pursued in a more humane spirit.

In my statement of 13th November, I pointed out that the Government could not undertake to admit to this country all distressed persons who have relatives here and that the Scheme must for the present be limited to the categories of persons specified in my statement. It is because this case fell outside any of these categories that it is not possible to accede to the application.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that an application was made to his Department in regard to this man visiting this country, and even in the terrible circumstances set out in my Question, no such permission was given on the ground that he was not a distressed person?

Unfortunately, the state of Europe is such that I can only admit people within certain limited categories. No one regrets that more than I do, I am very sorry that there is a substantial number of persons who cannot be admitted, whom I am quite sure every person of good will in this country would desire to admit, but if we made these exceptions we should be overwhelmed.

Whilst I appreciate what my right hon. Friend says about the admission of persons who desire to stay permanently in this country, surely in the case of a man of this kind, who has relatives here, who could receive him and give him some comfort, permission to make a short visit might be given to him?

The statement I have just made applies equally to visits as to people who desire to stay. Sometimes I have considerable difficulty when I am persuaded to allow a person to visit here, and then every excuse is put forward to turn what was originally a short visit into a permanent stay.

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's expression of good will, on which we are all very anxious to believe him, will he inquire how it comes about that, even in these limited categories to which he has referred, although admission was authorised in a statement six months ago, nobody has yet benefited?

Prisons

Population Figures

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the prison population in England and Wales on the latest convenient date; and what was the figure for the comparable date in 1938.

the population of prisons and Borstal institutions on 18th June was 16,000. On the 21st June, 1938, it was 11,000.

While some increase is to be expected for the war years, does not the right hon. Gentleman attribute part of this alarming increase to the maintenance of offences under regulation and Socialist control?

No, Sir, certainly not to the second of the alternatives suggested by the hon. and learned Gentleman. In answer to a question it is difficult to give all the reasons. One of the reasons for the increase in the prison population is that recently the judges have been passing longer sentences for certain classes of offences not connected with those mentioned by the hon. and learned Gentleman.

Punishment Diet

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the calorie value of No. 1 diet in His Majesty's prisons.

This is a punishment diet consisting of 1 lb. of bread with water. The caloric value of 1 lb. of bread is approximately 1,180.

Questions

Travel Restrictions (Eire)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how long the present restrictions on travel from this country to Eire are likely to continue.

As regards British subjects in general there is no restriction on travel to Ireland provided they obtain travel identity cards. These are necessary to facilitate re-entry into Great Britain having regard to the existing controls on passenger traffic from Eire to this country. The only exceptions are a few individuals who were interned during the war and whose movements it is still necessary to restrict.

If these people have a current passport, does the right hon. Gentleman require a travel permit as well?

Physiology Department, Oxford (Inspector's Visit)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if he is aware that a Home Office inspector called on Professor Edward Liddell, of Oxford, prior to a visit by R.S.P.C.A. officers in connection with an allegation of cruelty to animals; and if he will state the purpose of the inspector's visit and the nature of any report which he made.

A Home Office inspector visited the Physiology Department at Oxford University on 17th April—a month before the visit of the R.S.P.C.A. officers. The visit was paid in the ordinary course of the inspector's duties, and he found no ground for adverse comment.

Ministry of Pensions

Appeals

asked the Minister of Pensions when it is intended to make provision for the hearing of appeals against inadequate assessment of disability.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Parkin) on 6th June.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether the Order in Council foreshadowed in that answer has been issued, and, if so, when the tribunals are going to commence sitting?

My right hon. Friend is hoping that this will be in operation in the early future.

Would the hon. Gentleman answer the first part of my supplementary question and say whether the Order in Council has been issued?

If the hon. Member cares to put that question down, I shall be glad to give him the correct answer.

Personal Case

asked the Minister of Pensions when the letter promised to the hon. and gallant Member for Antrim, on 18th April, about Mr. A. D. W. Greene will be written.

My right hon. Friend hopes to be in a position to write to the hon. and gallant Member in the course of the next few days.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I have been waiting for that reply for 10 weeks?

I am sorry there has been this delay, but I think it is only fair to point out that the regular payments in this case were made some time ago, and it is only in respect of exceptional payments that delay is now occurring.

Housing

Swedish Houses

asked the Minister of Health, what is the cost, in eluding land, ready for occupation, of the recently imported house from Sweden.

I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the pair of special concrete houses being built by the Staff Homes Housing Association at New Street Hill, Sundridge Park. These houses are being built under an ordinary building licence and the cost, including land and services, will be £1,270 each.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has not answered my Question, and that I was not referring to those houses at all?

I did my utmost to construe the Question in order to be courteous to the hon. Member. What I should have said was that I could not understand it.

Flooring

asked the Minister of Health why he insists on wooden floors for new houses when wood is in short supply and as in many modern and L.C.C. flats, concrete or composition is found to be satisfactory.

I have never insisted on wooden floors for new houses, and I am quite prepared to approve suitable alternatives where the local authorities so desire, or where it is necessary to save timber. I have in fact done so in a large number of cases.

Is the Minister aware that I have a concrete case of where wooden floors have been ordered where wood is not available and composite or concrete was available?

If there are instances of that sort, I hope the hon. Member will bring them to my attention, but I have encouraged, and I am still encouraging, alternative materials to be used.

Plumbing Units

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the shortage of plumbing units is preventing the completion and occupation of houses in the Maidstone area; and can he give any information as to when this situation will be remedied.

I am aware of this shortage, which is delaying the completion of temporary houses in several areas, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Works is making every effort to overcome it. Deliveries of plumbing units for temporary houses in the Maidstone area began on 24th June.

Will the Minister answer the last part of the Question, and say when will this situation be remedied?

The situation will be progressively remedied, but I am bound to tell the House that the temporary housing programme was planned in such an awkward way that it is extremely difficult to carry out.

Builder's Advertisement

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that a firm, particulars of which have been sent to him, is advertising houses to be built, without having either licences or land on which to build, and is asking for an advance payment of 10 guineas, non-returnable, for plans, photographs and general specifications; and whether he will take powers to forbid such advertisements in consequence of which many homeless people may make disbursements for which they will receive no comparable benefits.

I have seen the letter sent by the firm in question to one of my hon. Friend's constituents. The letter indicates that no guarantee as to the erection of a house can be given by the firm, and I think that the lack of this essential condition will be sufficient to deter those in need of houses from proceeding with negotiations.

While in general not forbidding advertisements of that kind, will my right hon. Friend warn the public against them?

I hope in this instance that the Press will take note of the Question and the answer, because I think it is most cruel to encourage people to make deposits for houses which will never be delivered, and this looks like becoming a very big ramp.

Charlton-on-Otmoor

asked the Minister of Health for how many months sites have been sought for houses at Charlton-on-Otmoor, Oxfordshire; when it is anticipated that agreement will be reached; how many houses will be erected; and when they will be completed.

The local authority first submitted postwar housing proposals for this parish in September, 1943. The site originally selected has since been abandoned by the council in the interests of agriculture, and three other possible sites are now under consideration. It is hoped that a final selection will be made soon. Not more than four houses are proposed; it is not yet possible to say when they will be completed.

Does not the Minister think that waiting since 1943 to decide on a site is a long time, and is he aware that four houses are needed?

This local authority is building in other parishes, and its progress in other areas is quite good. There has been some difficult in this parish.

Soft Wood

asked the Minister of Health to what extent his temporary and permanent housing programmes are being hindered by lack of constructional soft wood.

The soft wood supply position has necessitated very strict economy in the use of timber for housing purposes, but if the hon. Member has in mind any specific instance in which work is being actually held up for lack of soft wood, I should be glad to look into it.

Is the Minister aware that an unusual quantity of soft wood is available in Germany? Why cannot we get some of that?

Arrangements are being made to get soft wood from Germany, and some has already arrived. We hope that we shall have much more towards the end of the year.

Questions

Repairs, Farnborough (Materials)

asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that application was made on 3rd April for the requisite materials, he will take immediate steps to enable Messrs. W. E. Baugh and Sons to carry out urgent repairs on the public right of way at No. 8 The Parade, Green Street Green, Farnborough, Kent, particulars of which have been sent to him.

I understand that the materials required are a manhole frame and cover. Both these articles are in extremely short supply at present and I regret that it is not possible to ensure that all demands are met. There is nothing to prevent goods being supplied through the ordinary trade channels where sufficient stocks are available, and no form of priority certificate is required where the repairs are clearly a matter of urgency. I understand that the local authority have advised Messrs. Baugh and Sons to this effect.

Is the Minister aware of the delay in this and similar cases, over many weeks, when supplies are available within three or four miles and the firm mentioned could not get a priority order at all?

Public Health

Eyeglasses

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that certain opticians are suggesting to National Health Insurance patients that delays in supplying eyeglasses, etc., can be avoided if they become private patients and fore-go the National Health Insurance grant; and what steps are being taken to prevent this by increasing the supply of eyeglasses.

I have been in touch with my right hon. Friend the Minister of National Insurance, but we have no information as to the first part of the Question. On the question of improving the supply of lenses, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 24th June by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, if I send him further information, he will look into it, and if he will also consider extending price control over the whole range of these things, in order to avoid this situation?

Hospital Staffs

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the difficulty which has arisen in consequence of the doubt which exists as to whether the hospital officers' salaries, whose salary scales have been recommended by the Joint Negotiating Committee, Hospital Staffs, should have been dealt with by the National Joint Council for Local Authorities Administrative, Professional, Technical and Clerical Servants; and if he will indicate, for the guidance of hospital authorities, whether the scales recommended by the Joint Negotiating Committee should be adopted.

asked the Minister of Health what action he proposes to take on the proposals for a hospital administrative service for domestic staffs, placed before representatives of his Department on 30th May, 1946, by the Women's Guild of Empire.

These proposals cover much the same ground as those contained in the Government statement "Staffing the Hospitals," and in the report of the National Joint Council for the staff of hospitals and similar institutions, which have already been sent to all hospital authorities. I am sending my hon. Friend copies of these two documents.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that there are 600 cases waiting for admission to Middlesex County Council tubercular hospitals; that 200 beds are closed through shortage of staff, due in some measure to lack of suitable accommodation for them; and why he declines to approve plans for new nurses' homes and extensions to the Harefield Tubercular Hospital.

I am aware of the shortage of beds for tuberculous patients in this county, and of the difficulties raised by inadequate staff accommodation; but I must have regard also to other pressing claims on building labour and materials. I am, however, reviewing the case to see whether a part of the proposed building might proceed.

Would the Minister find it possible to regard the provision of new nurses' homes as a part of the general housing problem, because it would be a contribution towards the solution of this difficulty, and would he regard sympathetically the difficulties of local authorities in the provision of accommodation for domestic staffs?

It would hardly be possible to regard the provision of nurses' homes as an addition to housing amenities, because nurses have homes as well, but I appreciate the shortage of nurses, and among the considerations for giving certificates for these that will be borne in mind.

In view of the immense length of time for which this unsatisfactory situation has been continuing, will the right hon. Gentleman issue as soon as possible a report of what progress has been made, particularly with regard to getting Service patients suffering from tuberculosis into hospitals?

The House knows that one of the main difficulties is the provision of nurses, and this is a shortage which has occurred not only during the last 10 months but during the last 10 years.

Blood Transfusion Service

asked the Minister of Health whether he has had any consultations with the Voluntary Blood Donors' Association in connection with the National Health Service.

No, Sir; it would have been premature at this stage. But I fully appreciate the importance of the work of voluntary blood donors, and I am setting up a committee including their representatives to advise me on questions arising in connection with the blood transfusion service.

Advisory Water Committee

asked the Minister of Health if he is now in a position to make a statement on the inquiries to be undertaken by the Advisory Water Committee; and whether they include the national use of water and management of water supplies.

The Committee's initial programme of work is to be discussed at their first meeting on the 28th June. There is no present proposal that it will include the matters to which my hon. Friend refers in the latter part of the Question.

Water Softening

asked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking, having regard to the recent cut in the soap ration, to ensure that the necessary plant is installed by water companies so as to reduce the hardness of the water supplies, especially in the London area.

This matter is receiving my consideration, but the hon. and gallant Member will appreciate that the installation by a water undertaker of water softening plant cannot be effected speedily.

Would the Minister bear in mind that it has been almost impossible for housewives to manage on the meagre soap rations now available in districts such as London where the water is very hard, and that it will be impossible for them to do their own laundry during the winter unless steps are taken to increase the soap ration or to make the water more soft?

The provision of the soap ration lies outside my Department. I quite agree that it is necessary to try to get the water softened, but the provision of plant is the difficulty.

Sewerage, Bletchington

asked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to press the Ploughley Rural District Council to prepare sewerage plans for Bletchington, Oxfordshire.

Any such works would compete with urgent works now being undertaken by the council, for the labour and materials available, and, therefore, while I am keeping the matter in view I do not propose to press the council at the moment.

Mineworkers' Medical Funds

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the existence of various medical funds, owned and controlled by the mineworkers of this country, the functions of which are to provide men injured in the mines with the required treatment of massage, chiropody, etc.; and whether he proposes to retain, in some form or other, these beneficial facilities under the new Health Bill.

It is the design of the new service to provide all necessary forms of treatment without charge.

Open Spaces (Land Acquisition)

asked the Minister of Health whether he has applied the provisions of Section 1 and 2 of the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act, 1946, to the compulsory acquisition of land by a local authority for the purposes of a park, recreation ground or open space; or what other speedy procedure he has made available to a Jocal authority to acquire compulsorily land for such purposes.

The provisions of this Act apply to the compulsory acquisition of land for the purposes referred to.

Questions

Identity Cards

asked the Minister of Health the number of identity cards in issue in England, Scotland and Wales, respectively, on 1st June, 1946, or the last convenient date.

A record is not kept of the total number of identity cards in issue, and the labour involved in the production of such a figure would hardly be justified.

Armed Forces (Deserters)

asked the Prime Minister the numbers of deserters from the three Services; and whether a general amnesty is contemplated both for those under sentence and for those not yet apprehended.

As regards the number of deserters, the figures are approximately as follow:

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many cases where a man has disappeared and is assumed to have deserted, with consequent great suffering to wives and families? Will he have some of those cases looked into, because it must be possible in many instances that the man is not a deserter but has been killed in an air raid or something like that?

If there are any cases like that I hope the hon. Gentleman will take them up with the Ministers of the appropriate Departments. I quite agree that there is difficulty in tracing the men in some cases, and I agree that every possible effort should be made to clear them up.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in one case I have been badgering the Department for months until I have become heartily sick of it, because I can get no satisfaction?

Government Announcements (Publication)

asked the Prime Minister why an official announcement was made from No. 10, Downing Street, regarding the appointment of a Royal Commission on Justices of the Peace before the House of Commons was informed; and if he will, in future, inform this House first on matters of similar importance.

So far as I am aware, no announcement on this matter was made public prior to my announcement in the House of Commons. As it was of importance that Press reports of the setting up of the Commission and of its detailed terms of reference should be accurate, an advance copy was issued to newspapers through the Central Office of Information in accordance with established practice in dealing with detailed announcements of this kind. This notice carried the customary embargo prohibiting publication until after the announcement in the House of Commons, and I have no evidence that that embargo was broken.

Germany

Plants (Dismantling)

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he will give instructions for the discontinuation of the dismantling of German plants in the British zone, in view of the decisions already taken to that end by the U.S.A. and U.S.S.R. in their respective zones.

The German problem as a whole is likely to be reviewed by the Council of Foreign Ministers at present meeting in Paris, and I am not therefore in a position to make a statement on the point raised by my hon. Friend.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that both General Lucius Clay on behalf of the Americans, and Marshal Sokolovsky on behalf of the Russians, have already declared independently that they are stopping dismantling of German plants? As it is quite obvious that high officers in the British zone in Germany want to follow the same policy, why have they been prevented from doing so?

My hon. Friend may be assured that my right hon. Friend and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster have not overlooked the force of his argument.

Is it not the case that we have not started to dismantle plant in the British zone?

Is it not the case that this plant is required in this country for British industry for reconstruction purposes, and that we are unable to get supplies of new plant for periods ranging between 18 months to two years? In those circumstances, is it reasonable that this plant should be allowed to remain in Germany while British manufacturers are not able to get the plant they require?

Taking a long-term view, would my hon. Friend bear in mind that any removal or dismantling of German machinery would amount to cutting off our noses to spite our faces?

Transfers (Russian Zone)

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, whether he will inform the House of the number of Germans who have emigrated from the British zone to the Russian zone of Germany.

By 8th June, 1946, 506,874 Germans had been transferred from the British to the Russian zone of Germany.

Repatriation

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what progress has been made in the repatriation of anti- Naziz to Germany; how many applications have been received; and how many have been approved.

Several thousand refugees in this country have applied in various ways for repatriation but only 145 individual written applications have been received in the Control Office. I am unable to say how many of these were from anti-Nazis. So far approval has been given for 18 anti-Nazi refugees to return to the British zone for urgent reconstruction tasks and 1,120 anti-Nazi prisoners of war have been repatriated from this country. A wider scheme to enable anti-Nazi refugees to go back to Germany to help in their country's reconstruction is nearing completion and my hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster hopes to be able to make an announcement in the course of the next few days.

Are we to understand from that answer that it is now the declared policy that all anti-Nazi prisoners of war are at once to be repatriated?

Employment

Statistics

asked the Minister of Labour the latest total combined figure of persons employed in the Armed Forces and auxiliary services, C.D., N.F.S., police, national Government service, local government service, ex-members of His Majesty's Forces who have not yet taken up employment, insured persons registered as unemployed, persons employed making munitions and war stores, persons employed in the distributive trades, and persons employed in catering and entertainments.

At the end of April, 1946, the combined total of persons in the categories mentioned was approximately 9,365,000.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these people are not directly concerned in producing goods, and that practically half our labour force at the moment is not producing goods?

I am quite aware that many of these are not engaged in producing goods, but some must be kept to distribute goods.

asked the Minister of Labour the latest total combined figure of persons employed in agriculture, horticulture, mining and quarrying, gas, water and electricity supply, transport, shipping, fishing and manufacturing industries, less persons making munitions and war stores and persons employed in commerce, finance, professional and personal services and laundries.

At the end of April, 1946, the combined total of persons employed in the categories mentioned was approximately 9,978,000.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that these people are employed in producing goods, and will he say what steps the Government are taking to take the strain off those people, who are very much overstrained in producing goods?

My right hon. Friend is well aware of the categories which are engaged in producing goods.

asked the Minister of Labour the total combined figure of persons out of the total labour force who are being paid by the State through their being in the armed Forces and auxiliary Forces, ex-members of His Majesty's Forces who have not yet taken up employment, insured persons registered as unemployed, C.D. and N.F.S.; and what is the total combined figure of persons paid indirectly through grants, by the State, employed in local government services, C.D. and police.

At the end of April, 1946, the combined total of persons in the armed Forces and auxiliary Services and the National Fire Service, and insured persons registered as unemployed was 2,906,000; the estimated number of ex-members of His Majesty's Forces who have not yet taken up employment was 840,000, but the number in this category who are being paid by the State is not known. Information is not available of the number of persons employed in local government service and the police who are paid indirectly through grants from the Exchequer.

Is it not a fact that, if civil servants and munition workers are included, out of every three people employed one is paid by the Chancellor of the Exchequer through our taxes? What steps is the Ministry of Labour taking to prevent this inflationary trend?

The conclusions in the first part of the supplementary question are wrong, and the others, consequently, do not follow.

Is it not the case that this division in the numbers of gainfully employed persons in industry and elsewhere is not a new one, but existed long before this Government was formed?

I wish to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Temporary Civil Servants (Discharges)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that temporary civil servants employed in War Office establishments, whose work is being transferred from the provinces to London, have been given notice of dismissal in spite of their willingness to transfer to London and continue in their employment; and why, having regard to the provisions of the Civil Service Control of Employment Order, the War Office is empowered to effect these dismissals without obtaining the permission of the appropriate national service officers.

I understand that notice of dismissal has been given, on grounds of redundancy, to certain temporary civil servants employed in War Office provincial establishments. Under the Control of Employment (Civil Servants) Order, Government Departments are not required to obtain permission of a national service officer before discharging a civil servant who has been declared redundant in accordance with arrangements agreed by the appropriate authorities.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there can be no question whatever of redundancy arising while the work continues to require to be done, and that, in fact, he is delaying the demobilisation of soldiers and members of the A.T.S. by dismissing civil servants engaged on what is purely accountancy work?

It is not the information supplied by the Department concerned. We are told that, although workers are being transferred to London, those engaged in the provinces are not necessarily required in London to do the job.

Will the hon. Gentleman consult with the Secretary of State for War in regard to the Records Office for confirmation of this information?

I understand that these redundancies were agreed by the arrangement, by what we might call "both sides of the industry."

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are violent and indignant protests, not only at the discharges, but at the breach of the agreement made between the unions and the Government about ordinary discharges that have become necessary? Is he also aware that all he has said this afternoon is poppycock?

I want only to inform the hon. Gentleman that the information about these two cases is quite clear. The Whitley Council was consulted and these redundancies were agreed, and that is the information passed to us from the Department concerned.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will take steps to see that when ex-Servicemen who are employed on clerical duties in any Government Department have to be discharged on account of redundancy they will be given work in some other Government Department in place of married women, whose husbands are in employment, and of juveniles.

The general principle laid down by the National Whitley Council Agreement is, that discharges on redundancy shall be in order of shortness of service, subject to an exception for ex-Servicemen of the 1914–18 war, who, under a long-standing pledge, have preference of retention in temporary Government service. The Agreement provides for no similar exception in the case of ex-Servicemen of the 1939–45 war, and lays down that, particularly in view of the continued manpower shortage, no discrimination should be exercised against married women or juveniles.

Will the hon. Gentleman look into the matter again, as there is considerable resentment amongst ex-Servicemen and women about the way in which the discharge system is operating?

We are always willing to look at it and, indeed, there is continuous review; but there is a shortage of staff.

Will the hon. Gentleman look at it from the other side, as well, and provide employment by placing married men where women are employed?

Has the hon. Gentleman consulted with the Secretary of State for War, who recently gave a thoroughly unsatisfactory answer to a similar question about the Records Office?

I can scarcely deal with that now; but it is a matter, too, for the trade unions concerned and the Civil Service Commissioners.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that while his statement of principles is absolutely impeccable, the practice in the Departments is absolutely deplorable?

Hospital Domestic Staffs

asked the Minister of Labour if any improvement has yet taken place in the recruiting of domestic staffs for service in hospitals; and upon what basis any available staff are allocated.

Yes, Sir. In the period of 18 weeks ending 15th May, my Department placed 12,860 persons in this employment, and the number of vacancies outstanding decreased by 451. The net increase of hospital domestic staffs in the first quarter of this year was 2,400. My local offices do their best to fill the most urgent vacancies first, but allocation by means of compulsory directions no longer operates.

Will the hon. Gentleman say what proportion of these would be immigrant domestics?

Questions

Students (Releases)

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the fact that demobilisation will be practically completed by the end of this year, he will now allow students in groups up to Group 65 who have already completed part of their course at a university to be released under Class B in order that they may resume their studies in the term commencing in October, 1946.

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend is not prepared to extend the present arrangements for the release of students in Class B to include men in groups later than 55.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that by October next year, classes on second year courses will be full up, and that there will be little, if any, opportunity for the students referred to in the Question to go back to the universities?

We have had the greatest difficulty in meeting the needs of those in Groups 1 to 55. We must satisfy their needs first. Until they are satisfied it would be dangerous to extend the field.

National Finance

Postwar Credits, 1944–45

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when it is proposed to issue notices of assessment of postwar credit certificates for the year 1944–45.

Issue has already begun, and I hope will be substantially completed in the next 12 months.

War Damage Repairs

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if, in cases of cost of repairs to war-damaged properties, the War Damage Commissioners accept the assessment of repairs value of the assessors appointed by the Commissioners.

Yes, unless the Commission's senior technical advisers consider, whether on representations from the claimant or otherwise, that a second opinion is desirable.

Would the hon. Gentleman accept, as a matter of principle, that where payments have been made in excess of these assessments, a refund should be made to the persons concerned?

I do not quite know what the hon. Member has in mind. The Act lays down definitely that the Commissioners shall decide what is the proper cost in these matters. If my hon. Friend has any particular point in mind dealing with the Act, on which he would like to have some information, I shall be delighted to meet him and have a talk.

Travel Association (Grants)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what grants have been given to the Travel Association of Great Britain; and what amount has been allocated to Scotland.

In the 1946–47 Estimate, £25,000 has been provided as an unconditional grant, and £40,000 conditional on £ for £ contributions being collected from other sources. My right hon. Friend has, however, given an assurance that he will be willing to provide by way of Supplementary Estimate for an increased grant on a £ for £ basis if sufficient contributions are received from other sources. No special amount is allocated to Scotland.

Has this Travel Association the right to make grants to Scotland and Ireland, and, if so, will they be allocated so that Scotland and Ireland have a fair share?

As to the extent of the money and the way in which it is used, that is a matter for the Board of Trade. If the hon. Member will communicate with the Secretary for Overseas Trade, I think that he can probably answer the question better than I can.

I would like to ask my hon. Friend why no special allocation has been made to Scotland, and does he not think that Scotland possesses the finest scenery in Great Britain? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]

I understand that Scotland, as usual, does get its fair share. As this is an overall and omnibus amount to cover the whole country, Scotland, being extremely insistent, will no doubt share in it.

Questions

Central Information Office (Press Extracts)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the practice of the British Government Information Bureau, whereby unsigned extracts from London newspapers are presented to the dominion and foreign Press as news, is not conducive to good relations with other countries; and if he will now give an assurance that this practice will be discontinued.

The Central Office of Information, to which I think the hon. Member refers, supplies no material direct to the Foreign and Dominion Press. H.M. Press Attaches and Information Officers overseas are assisted by a daily service of Press extracts and other background material from the Central Office. All Press extracts included in this service and subsequently communicated to the Dominion and Foreign Press are invariably attributed to their source.

Are we to understand from the hon. Gentleman's reply that no extracts are sent out which are not signed or attributable to some source?

Can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that this objectionable and undemocratic practice shall cease, because there is no doubt that the Government's views in handouts are being sent to all parts of the world, and they are very often party questions?

I have gone into this matter very carefully. I can assure the hon. Member—and I am positive that he will be delighted to hear it—that what he now says is quite untrue.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Is the hon. Gentleman entitled to suggest that I am saying something which is untrue? This has been ventilated at the Imperial Press Conference, and he cannot suggest that all these people are making untrue statements. This is thoroughly unsatisfactory.

London Museum

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to the future of the London Museum.

Population Census

asked the Minister of Health whether it is intended to take a census in Great Britain in the near future.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Southall (Mr. Ayles) on 31st January last.

Will the right hon. Gentleman indicate whether the reply was in the affirmative or the negative?

The reply was that the Government had not taken any decision up to that time in anticipating the date.

Does not the Minister consider, in view of the enormous social and industrial changes since 1931, and the surprising fact that no record is kept of the number of identity cards in issue, that it is important that there should be an adequate census?

I am surprised to learn that no record is kept of the number of identity cards issued. I am making inquiries into that. Making a census involves the employment of a large number of people, and we do not want to do that just yet.

Education

School Repairs

asked the Minister of Education whether she is aware that, since the publication of Ministry of Health Circular No. 87/1946, it has been virtually impossible for any local authority to put in hand any contract for the cleansing and distempering of school premises; and what steps she is proposing to take in the matter.

I have been in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Works who has made arrangements to enable materials to be obtained for urgent maintenance and repair work at schools to avoid major deterioration. I shall shortly be informing local education authorities of the details of these arrangements.

Clerical Assistants

asked the Minister of Education how many clerical assistants in schools have been appointed by local education authorities for 1946.

I regret that the statistics asked for are not at present available, but information which I shall be obtaining from local education authorities will enable me to give them before long.

In view of the need of teachers concentrating on the primary job of teaching, would my right hon. Friend press this matter of assistance, which is so necessary in view of the increased duties in these schools outside the classrooms?

I have pressed this matter in every way which is open to me. But it is no use collecting statistics until the local authorities have had time to make the appointments.

Allocation of Pupils

asked the Minister of Education upon what basis the allocation of 70 per cent. to 75 per cent. pupils to modern schools, and 25 per cent. to 30 per cent. to grammar schools and technical schools combined, as referred to in Circular 73 of 12th December, 1945, was made.

The suggested allocation, which is necessarily provisional and, as the Circular points out, applicable only under normal conditions, is based on the general experience of local education authorities supplemented by the results of expert investigations by His Majesty's inspectors and others.

Teachers' Salaries (Sub-Committee)

asked the Minister of Education if she will state the dates upon which the sub-committee of the Burnham Committee appointed to deal with applications for adjustments of rates of pay of teachers to the London scale has met; and the names of the members of this sub-committee.

I am informed that this sub-committee has been constituted and will probably hold its first meeting during September. The sub-committee will consist of members of the various associations represented on the full committees. With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate the names in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that she told the House, so

L.E.A. Panel.

Teachers Panel

County Councils Association

Sir Samuel Gurney-Dixon.

Mr. S. D. Bouch.

Mr. J. L. Holland

Mr. C. E. Caton.

Association of Education Committees

Dr. W. P. Alexander.

Mr. H. J. Cull.

Sir Percival Sharp.

Mr. A. E. Evans.

Association of Municipal Corporations

Alderman C. E. S. Gordon.

Dr. F. J. Harlow.

Mr. W. O. Lester Smith.

Miss O. M. Hastings.

London County Council

Mr. R. McKinnon-Wood.

Mr. A. W. S. Hutchings.

Mr. E. G. Savage.

Sir Frederick Mander.

Federation of Education CommitteesWales and Mon.

Mr. W. J. Williams.

Mr. R. Morley, M.P.

Governors of Training Colleges

Mrs. E. V. Parker.

Mrs. E. M. Lowe

1 vacancy.

Mr. C. A. Roberts.

Alderman W. B. Kenrick.

Mr. W. A. Brockington.

Exchange of Teachers Plan

asked the Minister of Education whether any financial grants are available for teachers who wish to go to the U.S.A. under the Exchange of Teachers Plan.

I have not found it possible this year to give any financial aid towards the expenses of teachers going to the U.S.A. under the exchange of teachers plan, but, as I have previously stated, I am considering this question with reference to future years.

Technical Schools, Wales

asked the Minister of Education the number of students in secondary schools in Wales receiving technical education in 1938, 1939 and I945; and what steps are being taken to ensure a proper proportion of technical schools throughout the Principality.

long ago as 11th April, that this subcommittee was about to begin, and is she further aware that while her Department has delayed, the local authorities have granted the same allowances in some areas?

This matter of setting up sub-committees is one for the Burnham Committee.

Following are the names:

The number of pupils in attendance at junior technical schools in Wales and Monmouthshire on 31st March, 1938, was 1,421. The figures for 1939 are not available. Nearly all the junior technical schools in Wales were reclassified as secondary schools as from 1st April, 1945, and the number of pupils in such secondary schools in October, 1945, was 3,117. The steps to be taken to secure a proper proportion of secondary technical education are now under consideration by local education authorities in drawing up their development plans which must be submitted to me for approval under Section II of the Education Act, 1944.

School Meals (Supervision)

asked the Minister of Education how many education authorities in Wales are employing assistants to help in the supervision of children at the midday meal.

I will send my hon. Friend the particulars that he desires when I have received the returns about non-teaching staff employed to relieve teachers which I am asking all local education authorities in England and Wales to supply.

Business of the House

Yes, Sir. The Business for next week will be as follows: Monday 1st July—Supply (14th Allotted Day); Committee Debate on Education.

Tuesday, 2nd July—Committee stage of the Cable and Wireless Bill. Committee stage of the Army Excess Vote, 1944, and of Navy and Air Expenditure, 1944, and, if there is time, we hope to make further progress with the Diplomatic Privileges Bill [ Lords ].

Wednesday, 3rd July—Supply (15th Allotted Day); Committee. Debate on Colonial Affairs.

Thursday, 4th July, and Friday, 5th July—Report and Third Reading of the New Towns Bill.

With regard to the Diplomatic Privileges Bill, there was a Debate on the Second Reading at a late hour last Friday, and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) was interrupted during the course of his speech. Is it now proposed to put this down as an additional Order late on Tuesday?

With regard to the Second Reading, which, as the right hon. Gentleman says, was interrupted last Friday, it is proposed to resume the Second Reading tomorrow, and conclude it, and then to take the Committee stage on Tuesday.

There may not be time tomorrow to discuss this matter. It raises, apparently, considerable controversy in various parts of the House, and would it not be better if the Leader of the House decided not to proceed with the Bill tomorrow or next Tuesday but let it be taken at a time which will permit of at least three hours' Debate, in view of the number of Members who want to take part?

I think we had better see how we get on. I was hoping we would get the Second Reading tomorrow. I want to be quite frank with the House. As the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate, we are reaching a very difficult stage in the Session, and there are requests for a Debate on a number of subjects which I want to meet if I can. But if we are to meet them we must try to help each other in getting the necessary Business through. It was in that spirit that I was hoping we would get the Second Reading tomorrow and the Committee stage on Tuesday.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we have got the Committee stage of the Burma Bill tomorrow, and a great number of Members on both sides of the House want to speak on that Bill?

I would ask the noble Lord and others to be helpful and let us try to help each other on these matters, thus helping the general convenience of the House. I did not think that the noble Lord would take the line that nothing is possible before the event. I only ask, let us see how we get on tomorrow and let us try to be helpful one to another.

It is understood that there will be no intention of rushing through this Bill tomorrow afternoon without there being adequate time for a discussion?

Of course, we all have our ideas about the end of the Session, and so on, but public interest and public business must come before the desires and convenience of the Members and their holidays.

As we are nearing the end of the Session, may I ask the Leader of the House to consider whether it is possible to allocate time for two matters? One of these was mentioned yesterday. It is the very important statement on coal made by the Minister of Fuel and Power, and several Members were anxious to have and, apparently the Minister himself desired, a Debate. Would it be possible to grant time for a Debate on that? The second point is in regard to a Motion which has been put down in my name and in the names of several of my hon. and right hon. Friends. It deals with the restriction on immigration and the desirability of removing or lessening those restrictions. If there were time to discuss these two subjects I think it would be in the public interest.

[ That this House is of the opinion that there should be a progressive relaxation of the restrictions upon the immigration and settlement of those aliens who, through their services in the allied cause, their marriage to British women, or their ability to contribute to the economy of this country, have a claim to favourable treatment; and calls upon His Majesty's Government to adopt a more generous policy for immigration in the future. ]

On the last point, I doubt whether there is time for that. With regard to the announcement which the Minister of Fuel and Power made yesterday, this is an administrative action in the course of the conduct of his Department, and I think it would be a suitable subject to take on a Supply Day if that is the wish of the Opposition.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House if he has seen a Motion on the Order Paper signed by 83 Members of this House showing concern whether the Government's policy means the imposition of conscription for all time in this country? In view of that fact, can time be given, if not before the Recess, then early in the autumn, to discuss this very important issue? Will the Leader of the House also bear in mind that this subject is far too important to deal with on the ordinary Estimates?

[ That this House, whilst welcoming the decision of His Majesty's Government, as set forth in Cmd. 6831, gradually to reduce the period of compulsory service in the fighting forces, is of the opinion that Military Conscripton in peacetime is alien to the traditions of this country and should come to an end as soon as practicable. ]

I am afraid I cannot hold out any expectations upon this matter. I have seen the Motion, which I think is a little hypothetical and speculative, and the actions which have been taken by the Minister of Labour are in accordance with the law. It is perfectly clear that sometime there will have to be a Debate, and quite possibly legislation, about the postwar military organisations. I think this rather anticipates something that must be considered responsibly at some future time, but I do not think that I can give special time for this Motion.

May I ask the Leader of the House whether between now and this day week he will consider the possibility of affording facilities for a Debate on the South Tyrol, concerning which there is a Motion on the Order Paper in my name which is now signed by over 100 Members of all parties?

[ That, in the opinion of this House, the proposal to retain the South Tyrol as part of Italy, without consulting the wishes of the inhabitants, constitutes a violation of the principles of the Atlantic Charter. ]

I really do not see how we can find any time for it. There are many Motions on the Order Paper for which time cannot really be found. I do not know whether something has happened since the foreign affairs Debate, otherwise I think it could have been included in that Debate.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will reconsider this matter in view of the fact that the Opposition would be quite prepared to devote to this question half of one of the Supply Days, over which they have control, or at any rate the right of suggestion which is usually accepted? It is very desirable that this House should express its opinion on the position of the South Tyrol.

If the right hon. Gentleman puts it in that businesslike and accommodating way, I think discussions can take place on the matter through the usual channels.

May I ask the Leader of the House whether he recollects a Motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) and myself? We did not press it at the time because the right hon. Gentleman promised to publish the secret report on tanks. With great patience we have waited for weeks. We know that these are not very long reports, but still they are not coming. Can he give us any hope that we will have those reports as reading matter for the holidays?

I will do my best. Certain discussions and examinations have to take place and they are going on at the present time. I appreciate that an undertaking was given, an undertaking which the Leader of the Opposition spontaneously supported. I hope there will not be any undue delay and I agree that it is desirable to get them out before the Recess.

In regard to the Business of the House, is there any way in which the House can express appreciation of the very fine way in which the staff stuck to their duty all this week?

I can confirm what the hon. Member has said as to the services the staff have given, and I am sure all parties in the House will agree with me.

Will the Leader of the House bear in mind, in his arrangements of future Business, following the advice he gave about the continuance of the Session, that the House will have to debate the position in India after we have heard any statement which the Mission of Cabinet Ministers may make when they return? I trust that he will reserve time for this, and that he will remember that possibly two days will be required.

I do not know about two days. It is a possibility, I agree, on which a legitimate request might be made, but there are one or two things also to be discussed. There is, for example, the British Broadcasting Corporation. I only wondered if we could meet the feeling and spirit of the right hon. Gentleman. We are up against real difficulties and I personally do not mind if the House continues to sit. I am sure we as a Government would be ready, but, on the other hand, Members in all parts of the House, after this hectic Session, will be ready for a rest. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] At any rate, I am ready. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Members opposite can cheer, but I know that they are getting tired. However, I wondered whether the usual channels could get together to see if we cannot make an agreement of some sort about the planning of the Session, taking care, as best we can, to recognise the high lights of the issues which ought to be debated before we rise for the Recess.

There are four or five topics on which Parliament is bound to express its opinion, great topics. If we omitted our duty by going on our holidays without discussing them it would lower the whole character, influence, and prestige of the House of Commons. We should be showing that there were great issues of thought and action in which we did not take an interest. I am very ready, on behalf of my hon. and right hon. Friends on this side of the House, to utilise Supply Days as much as possible to telescope Business wherever that can be done, the object being that the House shall discuss the matters it has to discuss. It is the duty of the House to see that the Government's Business shall not be unduly protracted, but at the same time we must discuss India and another question I wish to raise in a moment—Palestine—before we depart. Some of these matters can be accommodated within the Supply Day procedure, but all of them must be settled. We are ready to discuss them, in the first instance, through the usual channels, but if it comes to a question of our sitting longer, or omitting the great issues and spheres of public and world business we have to take part in, we must undoubtedly sit extra time. That is a matter for discussion.

On a point of Order. Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is now leaving the question of Business?

No, I am about to ask about Palestine. I asked the Prime Minister last week if he could make a statement, and he rather hoped that he could this week. Naturally, if the Government desire a little longer delay before making their statement, because of the difficulty and danger of this position, the Opposition would certainly not reproach them for taking time if absolutely necessary. But I must point out that two months have gone by since the momentous announcement of the Anglo-American Committee, in their Report, and that there has been no indication of any sort that any decision has been come to by the Government. I therefore ask the Prime Minister, or the Leader of the House, whether he will be able to make a statement next week on the subject of Palestine.

I hope to be able to make a statement some time next week. I quite agree that this is a very important matter which, of course, will have to come under discussion in the House.

I am much obliged to the Prime Minister for what he has said. It is absolutely necessary, however late it may be in the Session, that we should have a Debate on Palestine before we separate. We cannot have a Debate until we have had a statement of the Government's decision on policy.

In view of the fact that Questions addressed to the Minister of Agriculture are frequently not reached, could not the Leader of the House arrange for them to be dealt with earlier on the Order Paper, on Mondays?

We were unfortunate about Questions to the Minister of Agriculture this week, and you, Mr. Speaker, gave an adequate explanation of how that happened. I appreciate that agriculture is important—

I am very glad that we are agreed about something. We shall do the best we can. I thought that, on the whole, agricultural Questions were usually reached, but we will look over the list of the rotation of Questions during the Recess, and consider the matter.

I want to revert to the question of India. I hope the Leader of the House will not let the impression go abroad that he regards the question of India as an inconvenient item to be fitted into our programme. It is the most important question with which the House is faced at the moment. Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate the date of the return of the Mission?

The Mission are hoping to leave India on Saturday. I cannot say any more than that at the moment.

Can the Lord President of the Council say whether there will be a statement before the Summer Recess about talks on the negotiations preparatory to the International Trading Organisation? I hope the Government will not face the House with a fait accompli in this matter.

I do not think that that, considering the programme of events, is very likely to happen. There is no immediate urgency in this matter.

We have two statements before we get on to the ordinary Business of the Day, and I was hoping that we might get on with them now.

I only wished to revert to the question of Palestine, Sir. Without wishing to press the Prime Minister unduly, are we to understand that the statement he hopes to make early next week will be a definite statement about considered policy, and not merely a statement on the progress of discussions?

Armed Forces (Women's Services)

It was announced on 30th May that the Government had decided to continue the W.R.N.S., the A.T.S. and the W.A.A.F. on a voluntary basis as a permanent part of the Forces of the Crown. Pending inquiry into the legal basis for these Forces, and their conditions of service, it is not possible to decide their permanent rates of pay and other benefits.

His Majesty's Government have, therefore, decided that until such time as the new permanent rates of pay can be announced, members of the Women's Auxiliary Services will remain on their present rates of pay (including additional pay) increased by 1s. a day in the case of officers and 8d. a day in the case of other ranks. War service increments will also be paid according to rank at the rates earned up to 30th June, 1946. The new system of allowances will apply on the 1st July, 1946. From the same date women on Indian rates of pay will have their pay adjusted to British rates in the same way as men.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is intended to put members of the W.R.N.S. on the same footing as members of the other two Women's Services, so far as military discipline and arrangements connected therewith are concerned?

Bread and Flour Rationing (Government Decision)

The Government have decided to introduce, as from 21st July, 1946, a scheme of bread and flour rationing. I need scarcely emphasise to the House that the Government have only reached this decision because they are convinced that to fail to ration bread and flour at the present time would be to take an unjustifiable risk with the basic foodstuff of the British people. The Government are determined that every family in this country shall be sure of its share of bread and that that share shall be, in so far as humanly possible, adequate to the individual needs of its members. In present circumstances of a grave world shortage of cereals, the only way of ensuring this is by a well thought out scheme of bread and flour rationing. The scheme will cover bread, flour and flour confectionery. Measured in terms of ounces of bread per day, the rations for different groups will be as follow:

The above figures refer to the position if the whole ration is taken up in bread, but the housewife will be free to take up any part or all her ration in flour or flour confectionery, instead of bread, and to shop wherever she pleases. The ration will be measured in bread units. One 1 lb. 12 oz. loaf will cost 4 bread units. 1 lb. of flour will cost 3 bread units, and 1 lb. of flour confectionery will cost 2 bread units. Except in the cases of adolescents of 11 to 18, and of manual workers, the necessary coupons are already in the ration book, namely, L, M, G, J and F. The adolescent group will obtain additional coupons from a food office while manual workers will apply through their employers or, if they are self-employed, through the local office of the Ministry of Labour and National Service.

Allowances to catering establishments and institutions will be similarly restricted, but I am making special provision to safeguard the supply of bread and flour to the "meal-on-the-job" scheme, whether in the form of industrial canteens or of packed meals, which is already a feature of the rationing system, particularly for workers engaged in very heavy manual work. I am also making special provision for those workers who have no access to canteens, and who now enjoy the special cheese ration. These manual workers will be able to secure coupons for an additional 6 bread units per week to assist them in providing packed meals from home. Special authorisations, e.g., for the benefit of agricultural workers at harvest time, will be granted for bread as for other rationed foods.

We do not consider, however, that even the above careful gradings as between different consumers will sufficiently meet the wide variations which exist in individual and family needs for bread. A special feature of the bread rationing scheme will, therefore, be that the bread unit coupons will be interchangeable at the food office with ordinary points. The rate of exchange will be at the rate of one bread unit for one point, but for efficiency in control the food offices will only make the exchange in multiples of 8 at any time during each four week period. In other words, you will not be able to change less than 8 bread units into 8 points or vice versa. This provision will have two effects. On the one hand, it will offer an inducement to families which use less bread and flour than their ration to abstain from drawing their full ration and so obtain some extra points on which they can draw other foodstuffs. On the other hand, it will enable any family which finds that it needs more than its bread ration to supplement that ration by sacrificing some of the family's supply of points.

I do not for one moment underestimate the gravity of the step, which conditions of world famine or near famine in many lands have compelled us to take; but the Government would be unworthy to hold office if they flinched from this measure and so risked a breakdown in the bread supply of the people. I have one good piece of news to give the House. As the supply of one foodstuff becomes more difficult it is sometimes possible to provide some relief and variety in another direction. Our meat supply enables me to announce that the meat ration will be increased by 2d. a week, from 1s. 2d. to 1s. 4d., as from 21st July next. The increase will be in carcase meat, so that the ration will then be 1s. 2d. of carcase meat and 2d. worth of canned meat. In addition, we shall increase meat supplies for manufacturing purposes, mainly sausages, by about 20 per cent. as from 11th August.

This is one of the gravest announcements I have ever heard made in the House in time of peace, and I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that no figures have been given to Parliament, or to the public, to justify this extraordinary measure. We ought to know what are the figures of stocks, what are the facts and details of the arrangements and movements of cereals in different parts of the world. We have been denied all figures upon this subject. What further information has the right hon. Gentleman to give us upon the figures? I have also to ask him this: What saving does he expect to make in the consumption of bread by the introduction of this extremely elaborate, serious system of bread rationing, which we have never known before, even in the very darkest days of the submarine war? What saving does he expect to make? What is his estimate of saving, because I have seen it stated that there will be no saving? What is the saving? Could he give us any figures and facts about that?

I am glad to say that the rationing of bread at the levels which I have just announced will not demand of the British people a large reduction in their consumption of bread. The reduction will be in the order of magnitude of five and 10 per cent. The important feature of this—and this takes me to the other point made by the right hon. Gentleman—is that a system of bread rationing is a safety measure which enables the country to ensure its bread supply on very much lower stocks than that bread supply could be assured without bread rationing, and the prime purpose of the scheme which is to be introduced on 21st July next is a safety measure to ensure that with the current level of stocks every family will receive its bread supply. [An HON. MEMBER: "It always has done."] That is an entirely different point. As to the increase in the meat ration, it is possible simply because our stock position is better and easier.

Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House, as a result of his visit to America, what States in that part of the world have adopted rationing for the purpose of distributing bread?

There is no State or Federal rationing scheme in the United States today. That is well known. But it would not be fair to say that the United States are making no efforts and no sacrifices in this matter. The United States are suffering very considerably in certain areas from difficulties of distribution. Certain mills are idle, and in certain places it is difficult, on occasions, for housewives to buy bread. That is a very much less serious thing for them than it would be for us, but the fact is there.

Are we to assume that owing to some grave miscalculations or other untoward events we are to expect a far more stringent diminution in the bread available to this country in the near future than that which was mentioned, of five or 10 per cent.? Is this the preparation, the setting up of the machinery, so that the screw can be turned as events occur? [ Interruption. ] Had we not better know whether they take any interest in the food of the people?

Is the right hon. Gentleman ready to give us the facts from which these tremendous decisions are made? Will he give us the figures? We have had no figures, none whatever, on which a decision so vitally affecting every single cottage home in this country—[ Interruption. ] May I ask him whether he cannot give us some figures or facts which justify this?

Before my right hon. Friend answers that question, may I ask him, in regard to figures, whether it is incorrect to say that a saving of the order of 1 oz. per head of the population—which is about the reduction he is suggesting—gives a yield of the order of 360,000 tons; and further, in order to comfort the Opposition, is he able to tell the House whether there has been any recommendation at all from the expert committee on nutrition, and if so what, in regard to what ought to be the lowest level of bread consumption?

On the last point, of course we discussed it at very great length over a long period with all our nutritional experts, and these are scales which they fully recommend and accept. On the question of stocks, that question was debated very fully in this House very recently, and certainly now, at Question time, would be a most inappropriate moment to mention the question of our bread stocks. There are very great objections to doing so. I can certainly assure the House, and I hope the world through this House, that the fact that we have introduced—that we have faced the necessity of introducing—bread rationing in this country is the best proof that we are concealing no stocks of bread, flour or wheat in this country as we are very frequently accused of doing.

I want to be sure that the Minister is firm enough with the rationing. I want to know whether this ration applies only to loaf bread, or whether it applies also to cake bread.

Yes, it includes bread, flour and flour confectionery, which, I am told, is the somewhat clumsy term for bread and cakes.

It does not mean that if we are short of bread people can eat abundance of cakes?

The Minister has announced to the House and to the world a very grave decision, based only on general statements. Surely he will admit that the House and the country are entitled to more detailed reasons for this? Ought he not also to give us a further and more detailed explanation of the result and progress of the negotiations which took place on the occasion of his visit to America, and of what has happened to influence this decision?

The answer to the second part of the question is, as I said before I left for America, that I was very concerned with the long-term problem of the world's cereals and other food supplies. I was attending the first meeting of the International Emergency Food Council, but nothing that was there decided could possibly affect our position over the next few months. In answer to the first part of the question, it is our position over the next few months, as I said in my speech in the recent food Debate, in regard to our stocks and supplies, and the degree of certainty or uncertainty with which we regard our supplies during these critical months, which makes it necessary for us to have such control over the distribution and the rate of consumption of wheat and flour as rationing alone can give.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Northern Ireland is ready to share the hardships of Great Britain and that the Government of Northern Ireland, having been consulted, have given their consent to the application of bread rationing in Ulster?

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the women of this country will generally agree that the amounts he has indicated will be quite sufficient—[HON. MEMBERS: "Wait and see."]—provided there is no waste, and that it will be very welcome to know that in future women will regard bread as something that is scarce and valuable? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that the women in his constituency of Dundee will be able to buy, and will be able to give their families, very much more than they were able to do while one of his predecessors who now represents the Division of Woodford (Mr. Churchill) had some power?

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what prevented him from taking the greatest security measure of all, namely, the negotiation of a long-term agreement to purchase wheat from the Dominion of Canada?

No, Sir. The wheat agreements and wheat discussion which we had with the Canadians could have no influence whatever on the question of our wheat supplies in the next few months. The next Canadian harvest, as the hon. Member knows, is not gathered until September, and it could have no influence whatever on this question.

May I suggest to the House that this is a matter of very wide scope which is hardly suitable for discussion at Question time. Surely it is a matter for a Supply Day. Perhaps the House might now leave the subject and debate it on a future occasion.

In response to what you have been good enough to say from the Chair, Mr. Speaker, may I most respectfully submit that this is a vital matter for the life of the people of this country, and that we are bound to take what opportunities we can find for arriving, at the earliest moment, at the fullest information on the subject? I, therefore, feel it my duty to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, that is to say, the decision of His Majesty's Government to introduce the rationing of bread on 21st July without furnishing any of the facts or figures on which that decision is based.

The right hon. Gentleman has asked leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of public importance. I must point out that, in my opinion, the subject as he has read it out does not comply with the Rule. What I think is contemplated by the Rule is some sudden emergency either of home or foreign affairs; I do not think it was contemplated that questions of very wide scope could be pursued. This obviously is a question of very wide scope; it embraces America, Canada and wheat, which can be the basis of very many things, and I should have thought it was a suitable subject either for a Supply Day, or for a Vote of Censure.

With great respect to your Ruling, Sir, I may, I trust, be permitted to submit a few points which immediately occur. In the first place, what can be more definite than the schedule of bread rationing which is to be enforced upon us on 21st July? So much for its definiteness. In the second place, in the matter of urgency, every day counts, every hour counts in the preparation of the country and every hour counts in the decision which the rest of the House should take. Neither I nor my hon. Friends on this side have taken a decision to oppose this measure. I do not know the facts, but surely the least we can have is the facts which justify this extreme measure? So much for the urgency. As for the importance, such a thing has never happened in this country in the memory of man.

I venture to submit, on behalf of the Opposition, that the need for debating this before we separate for the weekend is most urgent. You have asked us just now, Mr. Speaker, to curtail this business on Questions. When are we to deal with it? We cannot ask questions beyond a certain point, we have not been given any of the facts, and now we cannot have the opportunity of a much fuller statement from the Government. With very great respect, I most earnestly hope that you would consider whether it is in the interests of the House as a whole—it is not in the interests of the Government to leave this matter undiscussed—to show some indulgence in the matter. I say it with the utmost respect to your interpretation of the precedents which, it must be admitted, have wide scope and varying applications.

Before you answer that point of Order, Mr. Speaker, may I submit to your further consideration that this really is no new thing at all? Bread rationing has been talked about in this country for some weeks. Some of us have advocated the eventual necessity for some time. I submit that there is no occasion to regard this as an emergency. The country well knew that this was coming. It is no new thing.

This is a Supply Day, and no time would be lost to the Government if part of the day were devoted to the discussion of this grave matter.

I presume that on a Supply Day the Opposition would give notice. In any case, there is a Supply Day next Monday, and that seems to me most suitable.

I am bound to say that what the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) says is true; we have been discussing bread rationing now for three or four weeks. Surely we ought to read the statement, and study it, before debating the matter in a hurry. I say again, I am afraid it does not come within the Rules, and therefore I cannot accept the Motion. I am sorry.

On that point of Order. Would it not be valuable if the Government gave some indication of how they are going to introduce the bread rationing scheme? Are they going to do it by a Bill, or by Order in Council? Shall we be given some opportunity of debating it at a later stage?

Would it be better that we should put down a Motion to demand an immediate Debate, which could be taken, I suppose, on Monday and have it taken as a controversial matter, or have facilities offered to us which are desired by everyone? Surely we ought to have the facts. If we are forced to it, of course we must put down a Motion of Censure on the Government. What is the use of camouflaging it? We would much rather not deal with this matter, affecting every family in the country, on the question of who choose to vote Tory or Socialist, at the General Election. That is why I had hoped that it might be dealt with on the merits. I hope it will be dealt with in association by both sides of the House, considering that we are all affected by it. May I ask the Prime Minister whether he can suggest any such course?

I think we have to be very careful in regard to the Rules for moving the Adjournment on a matter of urgent public importance. I have, in my time, many times suggested it, and I have found that the Rule has always been held very strictly. I should have thought it was quite open to have the discussion on a Supply Day, of which there are two next week.

Surely the matter of principle is this; the Government have now taken a positive decision to depart from their policy. It should not be for the Opposition to provide time on a Supply Day to deal with that matter. The point of constitutional importance is that, before the Government do something of such importance, they ought to ask the leave of the House of Commons.

May I ask the Prime Minister to explain a little more fully what he meant in his reply, which was difficult to hear owing to the noise made by his supporters? Do I understand him to suggest that he has some control, or the House has some control, over a Motion to adjourn the House on a matter of definite importance? Is it not a fact that the House is, and always is, in your hands, Mr. Speaker? Of course, if you, Mr. Speaker, refuse to grant the Motion, the House has no power.

Precisely, and Mr. Speaker having ruled, to suggest that I should take action would be, in effect, contrary to the course Mr. Speaker has suggested.

Would it not be possible to debate this subject on Monday instead of education? Is that what the Government desire?

If I may say so, it seems to me that the matter is entirely in the hands of the Opposition. This is administrative action taken by the Minister. Therefore it is a perfectly suitable subject for a Supply Day. There are two Supply Days next week, and all the Opposition have to do is to alter the subject selected for discussion on one of those days. There is nothing really new about this, because the Leader of the Opposition himself in the Debate on 31st May said:

"… in the last part of the Lord President's speech or, rather, in the ante-penultimate part, he made a declaration of immense and formidable importance with regard to the rationing of bread. I do not feel that it would be proper at all to give a vote this afternoon which might be taken as opposing that policy. If the Government feel compelled, at a later date, to introduce it I should like much more consideration of that matter."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st May, 1946; Vol. 423; c. 1582.]

What does that mean? The right hon. Gentleman was not going to give a vote which might be interpreted as opposing rationing. We are now being treated as though this were the first time the matter had arisen. I suggest that this is a perfectly proper subject for a Supply Day.

The quotation made by the Leader of the House was in respect of an announcement made, which was in the nature of a warning. There are many warnings given which may never eventually become actions. What we are confronted with today is not a warning, but an announcement of action on 21st July, and most detailed action, without any facts or figures of any kind. In these circumstances, you have ruled, Mr. Speaker, that this is not a matter—this introduction of bread rationing in England—of definite urgent public importance, because it has been talked about beforehand, or for whatever reasons there may be within the meaning of the Standing Order. I cannot press you further on that point. But would it not be possible, with the general consent of the House, for us to adjourn the Debate on which we are about to embark, in Committee of Supply today, after a short time, and have two and three hours' discussion of this matter, on which, between now and Monday, the thoughts of every family in the country will be exercised? Is it not possible to do that? I quite agree that many things can be done with the good will of the House. Is it in the interests of the Government, is it in the interests of the country, that this matter should be left as it is now? I humbly suggest that the practice of making these formidable statements on policy, without giving any opportunity of debating them, is to be deprecated. Very often in the war we gave opportunities for discussion, and very often the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) took advantage of those opportunities and said all he could to help us to get on with the war. I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, as a matter of general policy in the House, and of procedure, that a statement like this had much better be made on a Motion for the Adjournment by the Minister concerned, as could easily have been done. Then there could have been a discussion, instead of our having to press question after question, when there is no general and formal issue before the House. I ask the Government if they have anything to say about that.

On a point of Order. A statement has been made by a Minister, and this discussion has been going on for nearly an hour now. Is it not now taking the form of a Debate?

On the point that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has raised about interrupting the Supply Day Debate today, I think my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister put the point quite clearly. It would appear to us to be an evasion, or a method of convenience, in order to get to the same result, as if Mr. Speaker had given consent to the moving of the Adjournment under Standing Order 8. We do not think it right or proper that that should be done. It is not of all that urgency. Surely if the Debate is to take place, nothing is to be lost by letting a few days pass. It is fairer to everyone concerned to think about this, and to reflect, rather than to bang into a Debate straight away. I suggest that it is for the Opposition, who have the remedy in their own hands, to have one of the Supply Days next week.

In endeavouring to follow the thoughts thrown up by the Leader of the House, may I ask how would it be if at the beginning of the Debate on military matters this afternoon, I moved to report Progress? We could then finish the discussion of the matter which we have begun, and allow the Minister of Food an opportunity of giving us some of the facts we wish to know. I would be quite willing to do that.

I understood that, or something like it, was the proposal made earlier. I take the view, and so does the Prime Minister, that that is really a means of side-stepping the decision which, after thought, you, Mr. Speaker, have come to. Moreover, I think it is thoroughly bad Parliamentary business, when a momentous and important statement—which it is true was heralded—has been made, for the Opposition to proceed to debate it straight away. The Debate will be all the better, and more responsible, if taken next week and not straight away.

The remarks we have just heard are nothing but an unworthy evasion. As I understood the matter, Mr. Speaker, you ruled that this did not come under the Standing Order Rule 8. Now the Leader of the House is having, if I may say so, the effrontery to suggest that when you rule that something does not come within Standing Order 8, it is not a matter of definite urgent public importance, and we cannot discuss it at all today. I ask your guidance. Is there any warrant at all for any such suggestion?

The Government can move the Adjournment. Would it not be much more proper and convenient if the right hon. Gentleman made his statement on the Motion for the Adjournment? It has been done again and again.

Could not the Business for tomorrow be changed? It is not very urgent business, but it is important. The Burma Bill can wait a few more days. That would give the Government time, which the Leader of the House is anxious to have, to consider this question and we could have an excellent Debate tomorrow.

Might I ask whether when we have this Debate, and however we have it, all the necessary facts and figures will be available? For instance, I would like to know what preparations have been made to staff this vast business of applying the ration scheme; what number of men and women will be required to operate it? There is a vast amount of data this House ought to have, if it is to reach a rational conclusion.

May I ask the Minister of Food—and this is the last question I propose to put—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Your people are just as much interested in getting daily bread as ours. We are 10½ million and you are 12 million, and there is not much in that, although you sometimes forget it. Will the Minister give us a reassurance that the five per cent. he has mentioned is the full reduction in the amount of bread available for this country which he expects to have to enforce in the course of the next six months? I should like to know that.

The exact words, which I think will be found in the OFFICIAL REPORT, were:

"of the order of magnitude of between five and 10 per cent."

but it would be a rash man indeed who said he could foresee the course of world food supply for the crop year 1946–7. That is quite impossible, but certainly the introduction of bread rationing today, as things are at this moment, is fairly described as a precautionary measure which will ensure that we get through the immediate period ahead of us, in which our stocks are low, without dislocation of distribution to consumers.

Are we then to understand—[HON. MEMBERS: "Last question."] This arises out of the reply. Are we then to understand that we have been got into the position where there may be an actual deficit of loaves in the shops in a certain number of weeks?

No, Sir. The position is that the measure which I have just announced is to ensure that there should not be, in any particular part of the United Kingdom, dislocation of distribution which might produce a shortage of actual loaves in the shops.

On a point of Order. With great respect, may I submit that there is no Motion before the House? We have now been on this subject for more than an hour—[ Interruption. ]—This course was pursued by the late Government. They always gave the excuse that there was a war on. I ask you, Sir, whether we ought to go on with this discussion any further.

I had hoped that we were coming to an end of it, and that we would decide when we were to have a Debate. We have not got to that point yet.

As we are not able to discuss the matter now, there must be some consideration of whether we shall ask for a Vote on Monday or a Motion to be put down on Monday. I am not at all sure. I would much rather not. I would like to hear the Government's case before we are impelled to do that. If the Government themselves would open a Debate on Monday and give an opportunity, we would then hear what the facts are. If we have to have rationing of bread, we have all got to have it. There is no doubt about it, and we have to get through somehow, but we are entitled to have the facts put before us in a reasonable and decent manner.

I am not sure whether I understood the answer to the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Brown) to be that the Government are preparing a White Paper with all the facts, before the Debate takes place.

No, Sir. As I understood the request of the hon. Member for Rugby, it was that in any Debate which may be opened, these facts would be produced in any speech which I might be called upon to make.

We seem to be getting nowhere now. The Leader of the Opposition said he would make inquiries. I think we should leave it at that, and get on with the Business.

On a point of Order. There is no more important piece of business for this Government to decide.

Could I have an answer to the question I put earlier, which I thought was reasonable, namely, how the Government intend to introduce these proposals formally before the House, whether by Bill or by an Order in Council?

On a point of Order. Some time ago the Minister of Education had to come to this House and made an apology for mentioning the likelihood of bread rationing. She made her apology, which was received sympathetically. I wonder whether today it would not be in Order for the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister to apologise before this House to the right hon. Lady, in view of the fact that she has now been proved to be right?

Orders of the Day

Supply

[13TH ALLOTTED DAY]

Considered in Committee.

[Major MILNER in the Chair]

Army Estimates, 1946

War Office

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £1,082,000, be granted His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the War Office, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1947, in addition to the sum of £2,098,000 to be allocated for this purpose from the sum of £450,000,000 voted on account of Army Services generally."—[ Mr. Lawson. ]

British Army

4.37 p.m.

Following the momentous statement we have just heard from the Minister of Food, it may be difficult to persuade the Committee how important is the subject which we are to discuss this afternoon. I feel at a disadvantage in trying to persuade the Committee to that effect, and I regret that it is only my small voice that is opening the Debate, rather than that of one of my right hon. Friends below me. However, the subject is so important that I am sure the Committee will agree that nothing I can say will make it any less so. Previous Debates upon the Army have concentrated upon the "unwinding" process on the one hand, and details of the conditions of service on the other. I ask the Committee to turn its attention to matters of broad principle governing the shape of the Army, and particularly to those principles which affect the provision and organisation of the manpower which will be available to the Secretary of State in the next five years—at any rate, up to the end of the period covered by the recent White Paper issued by the Minister of Labour on the call-up.

The two subjects which are due for discussion this afternoon are the Territorial Army and conditions of service and recruitment in the Regular Army. The Secretary of State will pardon me if I deal with these two important matters in the wider framework of the shape of the Army, because I am certain that in his everyday work, he is applying his mind to that basic problem. Therefore, he can hardly say that he has been caught unawares. He has, moreover, been asked from time to time in the House and in Committee, to indicate what is in his mind about the future shape of the Army. He was most notably asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) on 14th March. In addition to that, he has been asked more recently to give details of the future of the Territorial Army, and has been pressed about conditions of service.

Among the various reasons which have been given for postponing any announcements on these matters, are some which seem to me to have been really put out to cover a state of great indecision in the mind of the Secretary of State. All those reasons prove to be wholly invalid. I might enumerate one or two given by the Secretary of State himself, which have been followed by others—quite different, and a little inconsistent with the reasons given by the Secretary of State—given by the Financial Secretary to the War Office. I would like to deal with these reasons shortly, because they are fundamental to any decision. First, we are told we do not know the length of time we may have troops occuping Germany. I have read a few statements by Field-Marshal Montgomery, whom we welcome as the right-hand man of the right hon. Gentleman in the War Office as from yesterday, in which he has said that we shall require to have troops there for at least 10 years, if not 20. So, for the purpose of dealing with the organisation of the Army in the next five years, that is not a reason for postponing a decision. Then, there has been reference by the Secretary of State to the doubt as to our commitments in India. That remains, and may remain for some time. Yet surely that is a matter for regional Imperial defence, and if we have not got commitments in India we probably shall have commitments in that area? Thirdly, there is the old reason of the world security force, but so long as there is the veto in the Charter it is doubtful whether that holds good. The right hon. Gentleman has said it is difficult for him to make up his mind, because we are living in an age of scientific progress. But not even a Socialist Minister can slow down scientific progress, or indeed, any progress. I hardly think that he will reach the stage, while he is in office, when scientific progress will go so slow that it will be easy for him to reach a decision.

So much for his reasons. Now for the reason given by his hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office, who said, on 15th April, that all these questions of the composition of the future Army, and the form the Territorial Army was to take, were abstract questions until the period of national service had been decided. That, we understood at the time, because we on this side always said that that was the reason for the Governments indecision. That statement has had the bottom knocked out of it by the recent statement of the Minister of Labour and National Service. In fact those abstract issues have become concrete issues for this afternoon, and I hope that some of my hon. and right hon. Friends will reinforce them.

As a result of this indecision certain vital and harmful things have been done both inside and outside the Army. Let me enumerate some of them. First, there can be no doubt that we are losing volunteers for our Regular whole-time Army, and also for any part-time Forces we may have. Secondly, as a result of the indecision on the future shape of the Army, there must be indecision on training policy, and from that it follows that the Secretary of State is finding it difficult to make up his mind what land, if any, can be handed back for agricultural use. At this time we know how important that is. Thirdly, indecision here must affect the future state of readiness for war of our land forces, and I am assuming today that one of the objects of having an Army at all is to safeguard our security in the event, as we hope, unlikely, of a major war. Then it must have been affecting the thought and planning inside the Army. Big indecisions have little indecisions "upon their backs to bite 'em," and I would say that we have seen some of the little indecisions in the number of times the Secretary of State and his hon. Friend have come to the House in answer to Questions and been quite unable to give any firm answer.

Finally, and this, though last, is not the least harmful result, people in the country have not been kept informed of the state of the Army at the moment and of the Secretary of State's plans for the Army and of the difficulties he is encountering, and this may result in future in people being misled and misunderstanding some major decision to which they may be asked to consent. Before I come to the main points. I would like to say, and I hope the Secretary of State will agree, that the shape of the Army is not a matter of party politics, any more than those many issues which we have to discuss—conditions of service, deferment of officers and so on—are matters of party politics. In chasing the Secretary of State from time to time, as we do, we have been helped by the hon. Member for South Cardiff (Mr. Callaghan) and his hon. Friends sitting beside him. The shape of the Army never has been, in this sense, a matter of party politics. Even in the time of the Haldane era, when there were such bitter disputes in this House between the then Rights and then Lefts, the decisions reached about the future of the Army were reached with comparative unanimity on both sides of the House. I hope that this will be so today, and I think one would be wrong, indeed, I hope one would be wrong, in a fear that the love of this Government for planning other people's business may have taken their minds off their prime responsibilities to the country—those of planning a defence force, and, in particular, on this occasion, planning the Army. After all, it is not much good cultivating the fields if there is a hole in the sea wall. I note one further danger, and that is that the Government have from time to time stated that they are waiting to be able to make a final decision. In human affairs, surely, there can be no finality. I cannot believe that the Secretary of State can expect, in his time, to make a final decision about the shape of the Army. What we want from him is some decision, not a final one.

In the problem that faces us, and I hope we may assume this throughout this Debate, are two important points: firstly, that the manpower allotment to the Services, as we know it and as it has been indicated in the White Paper, will last and stand until 1st July, 1950, because that is the period covered; secondly, I assume that, despite the atomic bomb and the hierarchy of atomic specialists, the chief of whom I see is absent from his place, we are not going to neglect our land forces any more than our sea communications. If we do, then, in the words of the First Lord of the Admiralty, the enemy would have no need to use the atomic bomb. With those two assumpti is, I should like to make quite certain, as I was always taught to do in military things, that I have the object of the Secretary of State right. I do not believe we can discuss any matter logically, and certainly not a military matter, unless we are certain that we have our object right. That I was taught when a very young officer.

I believe the object of the Secretary of State in planning the Army is twofold: first, to provide an Army which will fulfil our overseas peacetime commitments, and, secondly, to prepare the necessary land forces for any major war. These are two quite different things, and they become more different, not less different, as we progress in scientific technique and as the art of major war becomes more an art of mass destruction. The police role, which is perhaps a shorter way of describing the first of these two objects, has nothing to do with mass destruction. It is concerned with looking after individuals. In making his plan, the Secretary of State will no doubt also have considered certain major factors which are new today from those which applied in 1939, and, no doubt, he has read, like I have, in the study of this problem, the many excellent speeches which were made both by the right hon. Gentleman himself and by his predecessors in the four years before the war and the many other speeches made before the first world war dealing with the shape of the Army.

The factors to which I would draw the attention of the Committee are these: First and foremost, we require a more immediate, and not less immediate, state of readiness in our Army at the start of any major war; secondly, there has been a large increase, we hope, temporarily, in our Army's policing commitments; thirdly, the training of a soldier is a more complicated process, and I think the right hon. Gentleman would agree with that; fourthly, the increase in the proportion of technicians to that of fighting troops, and that is an important point to which I will come later. I noticed a newspaper report of a statement by General Crocker that, in the future Army, there will be four technicians to one fighting man. I do not know whether the Secretary of State will confirm that. Lastly, in considering the present situation, the Secretary of State can bear in mind that, until the end of 1948, all young men who might be called up to the Army in any war would have had a basic training. That is a very different thing from the parades they had to attend in 1939. In addition, of course, we have all the lessons which we learned throughout the war. There will be these and many other points which must be familiar to the right hon. Gentleman in the consideration of this matter.

It can be no secret that, for a long time, many working under the direction of the right hon. Gentleman have been trying to make a plan for the future of the Army, and I have no doubt that a lot of work has been done. What I want to press the right hon. Gentleman to do is to reach a decision and make a statement so that the people of the country, as well as this House, may understand the position. That was always the practice before the war, but, naturally, it was not the practice during the war, when security considerations were involved; it has always been the practice in peacetime, and, after all, the people of this country are called upon from time to time to make decisions on questions which closely affect this matter and they should thoroughly understand them.

Let me examine for a short time the different parts that go to make up the manpower in the Army as a whole. Let me, first of all, take the Regular whole-time Army. The right hon. Gentleman has said himself that our overseas liabilities can only, in the long run, be provided by the recruitment of a professional, long-term Army. He said that on 14th March, and I have no doubt that he still stands by it, but that cannot be the sole role of the Regular Army. There must be a fully organised and active force capable of withstanding the first shock of attack, and there must be some regular formations other than those required for carrying out the purposes of the police role. I should like to be assured that I am right on that point. It will also help us in considering this point if the Secretary of State could say how large a force he aims to get by voluntary recruitment for a whole-time Regular Army, and that is the main question which I want to ask him. I merely want to know his aim. He started a recruiting campaign, which began, perhaps, on an unfortunate day, and I do not know how well it is going now, but the right hon. Gentleman must have some aim for the strength he hopes to get for the Regular Army, and, perhaps, when he comes to reply, he will perhaps give us some indication of the progress of the recruiting campaign. We on this side of the Committee, I am certain, are only too anxious to help the Secretary of State to get as many recruits as he can. The Government have a responsibility in this matter, and, if they are convinced, as they said they are, that they must have a large, long-term, professional Army for these roles, it is their duty, by offering worthy conditions of service, to recruit the necessary numbers of men.

As one looks at the conditions of service recently published, one cannot help feeling a little doubtful that they have not carried out that duty completely, and they will, perhaps, allow me to offer one or two criticisms. There seems to be a danger that the conditions of pay are not as good as are required to get the volunteers we want. First, and this is, perhaps, a point which will sum up most of the arguments on pay why should the new rates of pay in so many cases be lower than the consolidated rates of pay today? If we compare the average wages that were given on VJ-Day with those that are given now, we find that the average wages have not gone down, but have gone up by over eight per cent. Why should not that apply to the Army? Why should the Secretary of State say that some rates of pay have become swollen during the war with war service increments and the like? But, apart from pay, I hope the Government will constantly examine the whole situation to see whether they have given every encouragement which they can to the regular volunteer. I would mention, on this point, one rather important matter which I do not think the Secretary of State has yet noticed, and that concerns the general prospects of the officers or other ranks who volunteer for the Army today. Will as much trouble be taken, when the time comes for the soldier to leave the Service at the end of his engagement, to resettle him in civilian life as is being taken today with those who are being demobilised? If the Secretary of State will give me a firm assurance on that matter, I believe he will help the volunteer position. Under the new scheme many officers will have to leave the Army under the age of 45 and will have a long time in their lives in which to put in valuable work in the civilian field. What has the Secretary of State in mind to enable these officers, when they leave the Army and transfer to civilian life, to carry with them some status which they may have acquired by their Army education and by the success which may have fallen to thorn in the Army? At present the passing of an examination at a staff college or at Sandhurst provides a man with no qualification such as would be provided by a university degree. That is a matter into which the Secretary of State might well look. Those are only two points on which I would touch, because I want to get on to other matters, but my hon. Friends, no doubt will supplement them.

Let me now deal with those who have been called up under the National Service Act for a definite, or for some of them still, a less definite period. What is the object of their call-up? I feel sure that the Secretary of State must give an answer to that question soon. Is it to train them and use them for the policing rôle, or is it to train them to be ready for a major war? Those are two quite different things, and I do not believe that in 1½ years one can train a man to do both.

Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman forgive me if I interrupt? He has mentioned preparing for a major war. Would he tell the Committee against whom would we be fighting a major war?

The hon. Gentleman or one of his friends ask that question every time one makes a speech on the Fighting Services of this country. If it is not to prepare for a major war, why does he vote any money for the Fighting Services at all? Perhaps after that irrelevancy, I may continue. To return to the question which I have just asked about the object of this call-up, it is most important that the right hon. Gentleman should be clear in his own mind about that. What is important is that the men he calls up should understand the rôle for which they have been called up. Compulsory service may offend the instincts of many people in this country, but for the moment it is essential that we should have it. If we are to get the best out of these men who are called up, we must tell them what part they are playing in looking after this country, and it is only right that the right hon. Gentleman should take them into his confidence. If the general to whose statement I referred a few moments ago, is correct in saying that four out of five men in the future will be technicians, is it not a great opportunity for the right hon. Gentleman to have a scheme whereby most men who are called up are trained to be technicians of one kind or another? It would appear that a majority of the Regular whole-time Army, as distinct from the men who are called up, will be used for a while in the police rôle where technicians are not so important. It would also appear that it might be easier in the long run to ensure that men who have received six or nine months' training as technicians, are kept fit for rejoining the Army in their technical rôle than it would be to keep what I might call the general duty men up to date and properly trained. I am sure it would be much more congenial to the man who is called up if he were quickly put through a basic military training which taught him to understand and to fit himself into the military way of life and was then given a definite technical job to learn. Clearly, the right hon. Gentleman cannot do that with everybody, but if it is his aim to do that with a large number it would help if he would say so. The numbers that are available to the Secretary of State from the two sources to which I have referred are, obviously, not sufficient to guard this country in a major war. Therefore we need reserves. For the time being we have a large number of potential reserves in those who have recently been demobilised, but they will not for long remain up to date in their understanding of military technique and it is, therefore, necessary to have some kind of refresher organisation.

That brings me to the Territorial Army, which is the second of the most important points to which I shall refer. The Secretary of State has stated that he intends to revive first-line units. He has not given us any indication of the object which he has in mind in reviving those first-line units. What is to be the task of the Territorial Army? Is the task to be the same as it was in 1939—to provide a reserve of units or formations in the Field Force, and to provide for the air defence of Great Britain, or is it to be some other task? That is a matter upon which I would like a reply today. It seems to me that in his answers to the many questions that have been put to him about the Territorial Army, he has produced the extraordinary paradox that this part-time volunteer organisation should have had so much whole-time active consideration by the right hon. Gentleman, and so much what I might almost call compulsory lip service by both him and his hon. Friends. I would like him to give us some indication of action in this matter. I wish my hon. Friend the Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) were here to shout "Thoroughly unsatisfactory" in the right hon. Gentleman's ear. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is with me in recognising the enormous value to this country in the past of the Territorial Army, and I believe he is with me when I say that always in this great country of ours there will be volunteers ready to join the Territorial Army. There will never come a time, whatever arrangements may be made for other kinds of service, when there will be no volunteers ready to give up a certain amount of their time for what they know to be the good of the country. But the longer the Secretary of State waits in giving a decision on this matter, the fewer and the less keen will the volunteers be. Therefore, I hope when the Secretary of State makes a statement, as I think he will do, which will give us some indication of the future, he will answer some of the questions which I have put to him.

I hope, too, that the right hon. Gentleman will give us an indication that he realises that, however good the Territorial Army was in 1939, it was not finally and excellently good. There were weaknesses. One weakness will not apply in the next four years because everybody who joins it will have had basic training. That was a great weakness. Another weakness was shortage of equipment, which will not apply now. Another weakness was the lack of close touch between the Regular units and the Territorial Army units. Yet another weakness which might apply unless some special action is taken, is that at the start of the war a large number of men upon whom the Territorial Army relied were men in reserved occupations. That cannot be good planning, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman's party would not allow him to do a thing like that. Moreover, I hope he will indicate that he understands that a machine such as the County Associations of the Territorial Army and the whole general machinery of the Territorial Army, coming as it does from the years 1907 and 1920, may require certain adaptations to bring it into line with modern conditions. In particular, I suggest that the County Associations may have to put out more feelers into the centres of manpower as they are today. Though in the past they drew their men predominantly from the country areas—what one might, perhaps, term the agricultural areas—in this technical age they might go far more into the cities and the towns. That is a point to which I hope he will refer. The last point which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will cover is the question of training of officers. He has done away with the old O.T.C., to all intents and purposes. It was done away with, perhaps, for political reasons, but perhaps some more drastic steps are necessary to keep an officers' reserve going. I hope he realises how important it is to the Army that there should be a trained officer reserve on a voluntary basis.

I have taken a long time, but I would just like to round off my speech with a return to the question of the state of readiness of the Army, because on that question of how ready the Army is to be for a major war, and in what strength, must depend the Secretary of State's decision as to the shape of our Forces. Equally it is true to say that on his decision about the shape of our Forces, including the voluntary reserves, must depend the effectiveness of his plan for readiness in the event of a major war. There was a time when the state of readiness was six months because it was thought that the Navy could keep any enemy at bay for six months. Those considerations are entirely foreign to conditions pertaining today, when we are responsible for the defence not only of this country, but of the British Commonwealth as well. How ready we were, and in what strength, in 1939, is a matter which I will leave to those who have the facts, such as the Secretary of State. I feel the public are entitled to an answer as to what lies in the Secretary of State's mind on that point. The future of the Army depends so much upon decisions reached many years before. The organisation of the Army in which many of us have served owed much of its strength and some of its weaknesses to decisions taken by Mr. Haldane, as he then was, between 1906 and 1912, and to decisions taken immediately following the last war. The right hon. Gentleman now has a great opportunity to leave behind to this country an Army organised, in tune with progress and which, as I told him to begin with, would always progress and go on, whatever he might do with it, in tune with modern conditions and with the spirit of this country which will always produce volunteers. I hope he will go down in history as another Haldane and not as "Lawson the cunctator, Lawson the waverer."

I hope that in the course of this Debate, or if not now very soon after, he will give us some indication of the decisions that he has reached, that he realises that on his decisions—not necessarily on his direction, but on his decisions—rests the success or failure of the Army in the distant future. I hope that he will not by continued indecision—for that is what I believe it is at the moment—strike a blow at the Army which, I know, he genuinely loves and is most anxious to help, a blow which will be none the less disastrous because it is unintended.

5.15 p.m.

It is usual on a Supply Day for the Minister concerned to wait to hear what hon. Members have to say in the Debate before he intervenes, but I thought that, on this occasion, it would be for the convenience of the Committee if I made a statement early in the Debate. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has made a very able speech, and I think it will be agreed that he speaks with great experience because of his very valuable service during the war. He has raised a large number of points. I do not pretend to be able to answer those points straight away, but, as he rightly says, I was given warning of the two main points, with which the Debate would have to deal—the question of conditions of service in the Army and recruitment, and, also, the matter of Territorial organisation. I was very pleased that today's Debate was allotted to matters affecting the Army, because between one Estimates speech and another Estimates speech is far too great a space, and there is very little opportunity for hon. Members or the Secretary of State to speak of some of the things troubling the Forces.

I think one of the things the hon. and gallant Gentleman said was extremely to the point. He said he hoped I should not go down to history as someone who, to put it bluntly, let the Army down, or prepared, by continued indecision, the way to future destruction. We have all seen what happened in the years between the two wars. I tell him and the Committee, that the last thing that I want is to be in any way responsible for bringing the Army or the Territorials to the state that they were in previous to the last war. I know that the small body of men in the Army and in the Territorials give devoted service to this country. But they were called upon to face vast odds with little equipment. To read some of the despatches, as well as to talk to the men of the earlier days of the war, is almost heart breaking. It is always a matter for regret, of course, that, when a great war has reached a successful conclusion, the Armed Forces of the Crown no longer receive that attention which we should wish them to have. Quite naturally, they tend to be submerged in the growing interest in social rehabilitation and in the reconstruction of the peacetime way of life. That is natural. But it is very important, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said, to maintain efficient and contented Forces, and to that end hon. Members, with their criticisms from time to time, can make a valuable contribution.

The Army, of course, I need scarcely remind the Committee, has not yet returned to its peacetime stature or occupations. In my speech on the Army Estimates, I dwelt at some length on the Army's present tasks of pacification overseas and reconversion to civil life at home. This period of turning from war to peace is not yet ended. I can say this, that the Army can be proud of the way the tasks of the period have been tackled. Two million men have been returned to civil life in the last year from the Army. This has called for careful planning and sound, smooth organisation; but this achievement would not have been possible without that steadiness which is typical of all ranks of the British Army. I mention this fact because, in our peculiar British way, we take even great achievements for granted, and say little, or nothing, about them.

But I think I may be excused for underlining the fact that, while this vast, smoothly moving demobilisation has been going on, some of our men have been engaged in sporadic fighting under peculiar and difficult conditions, while others have been performing the difficult tasks of occupation troops; and it is worthy of note that, under such conditions, the Army has lived up to its highest traditions. There has been scarcely a flaw in the conduct of the Army while this great and testing change has been going on. We, in the age and service scheme, not only gave the men a promise; we asked from them very great restraint, and I should say that the restraint and self-control and high standard of conduct of our men under these conditions is almost without parallel in military history.

Amidst the preoccupations we have had in the changing present, we have given thought to the lasting conditions of the future. As announced in the recent White Paper, the period of national service will have to be defined and reduced. The effect will be a rapid running-down of the overall strength of the Army and, if our hopes of the recruiting campaign are realised, substitution of regular for temporary Forces. This Regular Army at which we are aiming must be of a size limited broadly by the number of men who may be expected to take on professional engagements, and, of course, by the amount of money we are prepared to spend on that professional Army. It remains to be seen how far a professional Army will meet our peacetime requirements, but one thing is certain, and that is, that it can in no sense meet our requirements in another war, if, unfortunately, one should occur.

May I ask a question? I think it is a matter of very great importance. I do not ask the right hon. Gentleman at this moment to disclose—though one would like to know it—the size of the postwar Army. But, surely, he does not mean, by what he has just said, that the size of that Army must be conditioned by the number of people we can get? Surely, the Secretary of State has set himself a target and said, "We must try to get so many men for the Regular Army"? I do not ask what the target is, but surely the right hon. Gentleman has a target?

I am much obliged to the noble Lord. I ought to have said the target. But, of course, we have to look to the Auxiliary Forces, though they do not take part—

I am sorry to interrupt again, but I do not understand. Has the right hon. Gentleman got a target or has he not? I am not asking him to give the target.

Yes, certainly, there is a target for the Regular Army. I hope the noble Lord is not going to press me on that matter, for obvious reasons. I want to make it quite clear that we must look to the Auxiliary Forces of men who, though they do not take up the pursuit of arms as a profession, are yet available in sufficient numbers for the expansion of the Regular Forces. That answers the question the hon. and gallant Gentleman was asking—that they should be trained and ready in order to supplement the Regular Forces, if, unfortunately, they should be necessary.

I want, therefore, to make this announcement: it is our intention to reconstruct the Territorial Army. No one will expect that this Army will be exactly the same in shape and organisation as that proud Force which we possessed between the two world wars. Many of the units, of course, will have to be changed, will have to change their nature and organisation; but it is my conviction, which, I believe, will be shared by the Committee and the country at large, that we should be ill advised to sever ourselves from this heritage of the past, and disregard the loyalties and efficiency of the old Territorial system, which served us so well in the two wars.

There is a matter I want to dispose of. There has been some talk about changing the name. I think the name is important. Whatever its organisation or its present precise role, it is intended that the Force shall be called by the old name of the Territorial Army. There are, of course, great numbers of ex-officers and other ranks who, though they are pleased to leave the Army and return to civilian pursuits, feel, nevertheless, that they would like to give some part-time service in the interests of the defence of this country, and I shall, in due course, invite those members of the community to offer themselves for part-time service on very much the same lines as that which was given by the Territorial Army before the war. The conditions under which those men will serve are now being worked out, and the very intricate problem of their training and organisation is also being closely examined. I know that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee are anxious to hear the details, and I can assure them that I will supply them with as little delay as possible. The last thing that I want to do—and I think hon. Members will agree—is to invite men to join before the preparations are complete which will govern their service.

I do not therefore anticipate—and I regret to say this—that I shall issue this general invitation until the end of this calendar year. The object of my statement today is to give public notice that such forces will be constituted, and to allay the feelings of anxiety which have been expressed to me from many quarters. The recreation of the Territorial Army will throw upon the Territorial Army and Air Force Associations a heavy burden, which I know they are willing and desirous to bear. I hope that the revival of this great movement will be reflected in a rejuvenation of the personnel of these associations. I am glad to tell the House that I intend to do something to vary the personnel of these Associations. I intend to invite the trade unions to take their part and to appoint representatives to serve on the Associations.

I must ask the right hon. Gentleman to correct that statement. Representatives of the trade unions can join, and in many cases belong now to these Associations. I have sat with a representative of a trade union on my Territorial Association for the last 20 years. What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by his statement?

I am glad to have that testimony from the right hon. Gentleman. I am well aware that trade unionists play a part in the Territorial Associations, but what I said was that I am going to ask the organised trade unions to take their part in this great organisation.

All I can say is that I know that there are individuals who have done it. I was very pleased indeed during the war—and I am sure that anyone who has due regard for this country will agree —to see organised trade unions taking part in the war, and some of their leaders on close terms of intimacy with some of the military leaders, and going out of their way to understand something of the kind of life the men had to live at least under training conditions. I intend, as I have said, to invite the trade unions to take their part and to appoint representatives to serve on the Associations. I am confident that the renewal of local connections and associations which were the basis of the success of the great prewar Territorial Army can safely be entrusted to these Associations, and I have every confidence that with their assistance the movement will be as great a success in the future as it has been in the past. This process will take time. Hon. Members will agree with me that it would be foolish to ask for volunteers before the organisation which is to receive them is vigorous and efficient, and to some extent improved in personnel.

Apart from the Territorial Associations, it is necessary to make other preparations before recruits can be accepted. A list of formations and units required of the Territorial Army must be drawn up, and the local unit must be selected in each case to carry out the duty allotted to it. I am anxious as far as possible to be guided by tradition. The commanders of these formations and units must be carefully selected, and, finally, the cadres of Regular officers must be formed, and they must be given time to familiarise themselves with their tasks. Many thousands of the officers and men to whose spirit and knowledge we look to give the Force a good start are still serving in the Army, and, indeed, many Territorial units are still active as part of the present Forces at home and overseas. I expect that by the end of this year that the run-down of the wartime Army will have released many more. I should like to make it clear that as far as possible, the units which will go to make up the new Territorial Army will be the prewar first-line Territorial units. The strength of the Territorial Army seldom in the past exceeded 150,000 officers and men. It will be clear to the Committee that if about the same number join, we shall be provided with the nucleus only of a national Army. Most of the volunteers would find themselves either officers, warrant officers, or non-commissioned officers in charge of the new entry if war broke out. I am in no position to say whether some form of national service will continue in this country as a permanent or temporary part of our peace-time organisation. This matter is for future examination in the light of events.

Is it possible to have an efficient Territorial Army without conscription?

That would lead me to another subject. I am not sure what hon. Members would do in the circumstances. All I can do is to repeat what I have said—that I am not in the position, speaking as a Member of the Government, to make a statement upon what I agree is an all-important matter. This matter is for future examination in the light of events, and all I wish to say at this moment, whatever our future decision may be on this vital subject, is that the volunteers who join the Territorial Army will be of inestimable value. I trust that many thousands of those who have learned the trade of the soldier in these years of war, will keep fresh their skill and teach it to others in the rank of this Force.

Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves this subject, will he be good enough to say whether the Territorial Army, in the part-time services which he envisages, will be concerned with a home defence role, or will it be concerned with Imperial affairs?

I have already said that it is to be trained for the purposes of home defence, but also jointly with the Air Force, with the purpose of being expanded and used in the Regular Army in the case of war

If I might press the right hon. Gentleman on this point, which is fundamental, may I say that the Territorial Army was originally brought into being and charged with a home defence role? Its members were officers and other ranks who could not be sent outside the country without undertaking an additional obligation. In 1932 that was all altered, and officers and men were required to undertake an obligation of service outside these islands, always provided that, if this House were not sitting, a Proclamation had to be made for the House to meet for that decision to be taken. I think that the House ought now to know whether the right hon. Gentleman is considering the Territorial Army as forming a part of the expeditionary force, or whether it is to be concerned with functions something like those of the Home Guard.

I think that by this time every man when he joins the Territorial Force understands, by reason of practice apart from anything else, that the Territorial Force has long passed the position where, in time of need, it is limited to home service.

When the right hon. Gentleman said just now that no decision could be made and that this was a matter for the future, is he putting any time limit on the future? It is going to be very difficult surely to plan a future organisation unless we know when he will say that that moment has come to do so. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not leave it quite so vague or in the indefinite future.

I think the right hon. Gentleman said that he was not in a position today to make an announcement in regard to national service, and that it had to be left to the future. I am asking whether he will limit that future to next year, or the life-time of the present Government, or give some definite limit.

The White Paper has stated very clearly the reasons why the Government are not in a position to make a definite decision. I am not in a position to make that announcement today. Before I leave this subject I would like to say a word or two about the Army Cadet Force. This Force has as its objective training in citizenship and leadership. It has proved itself virile and successful. We intend to give it our further support and link it as closely as possible to the Territorial Army. Officers and men who leave the Army have a great opportunity for personal service with the cadets, and such service will not debar officers, later, from joining the Territorial Army. It is hoped that the Army Cadet Force will be so closely linked to the Territorial Army of the future that many Territorial Army officers will engage themselves on behalf of the cadets as a normal part of their duty.

The strength of the Force is now 150,000. The drop in numbers which was expected by many at the end of the war has not materialised, thanks to the keenness of the cadets and the quality of the voluntary and unpaid services rendered by their officers. The pre-service element of cadet training has proved itself to be of great value to the Army and to the ex-cadet when the latter joins up as a soldier. Certificate "A" badge has been recognised as an official badge to be worn by the recruit, and steps are contemplaed to ensure that advancement in the Army corresponds with the progress he has made in his training and knowledge, including technical knowledge, resulting from his cadet service. I thought it necessary to speak at an early stage about my plans for the Territorial Army.

The Territorial Army has never extended to Northern Ireland. There has been no home defence role there. Men have gone straight overseas at the outbreak of war. Is the right hon. Gentleman considering raising an auxiliary Force which would be appropriate to the conditions and traditions of Northern Ireland?

I have already said that my object is that the Territorial Army should be considered not only for home defence, but as an auxiliary force.

I have been asked about conditions in the serving Army. I want to say a word or two about one or two items deeply affecting the men. I cannot however cover all the subject because this is a Supply Day. It is not an Estimates Day and I do not want to take up too much time. I wish I had more time to deal adequately with the topics covered by the words "conditions of service." They have, however, been discussed for two days in this House. I want to speak about accommodation and furniture and all the things that affect the married soldier. As soon as supplies are available, it is my intention to improve the standard of living of all ranks, both married and single, by providing an increased scale of furniture of up-to-date and attractive design, and an ample supply of modern cooking utensils and other household requisites. Living conditions in the Army should be comfortable, attractive and in keeping with the comforts accepted by the civilians. We are already building new quarters for married soldiers and their families. I use the term "quarters" because it is the official term, but these quarters will be in fact, attractive modern houses within walking distance of the camp, and as far as possible out of sight and earshot of the camp itself.

Owing to the shortage of labour and materials it will be, I am sorry to say, some time before we can dispense entirely with all those old barracks. I had experience of one myself. These old barracks have given the word much of its unpleasant flavour. Until our long-term plans mature this older accommodation will be improved as far as possible, and I hope to make this older accommodation as attractive and as habitable as our new standards demand. As a result of our wartime experience great advances have been made in providing N.A.A.F.I. clubs in the place of the old time institutes. Clubs have been opened at 16 centres in this country. They provide restaurants, snack bars, beer bar, games room, dances, concerts and that kind of thing. They are very well furnished with a homelike atmosphere provided by the W.V.S., who decorate the rooms with flowers, run the clothes mending service, an inquiry and letter service, et cetera.

I particularly want to give the Committee some idea of my plans for education. I should like to say something about the Army Welfare Organisation, but I regret, however, that I could not do it justice now. I am most anxious to say a few words about my plans for the education of the postwar Army. These plans provide broadly for the following types of education: Firstly, universal community education which is education in citizenship and current affairs and subjects basic to a sound modern education such as English, history and science; secondly, voluntary individual education designed to satisfy the personal needs of the individual soldier; thirdly, resettlement education; and, finally, education for what we call the few illiterates and semi-illiterates we get who must be brought up to the standards necessary for military efficiency. Education will be organised at three levels, the elementary stage; the intermediate stage, which is the provision for the bulk of army personnel on a unit basis; and advanced education, which is the provision for further and more specialised education to be undertaken on a group basis. In considering the future the following considerations are borne closely in mind: Continuity of education for both regular and militia men. The former require progressive development leading up to resettlement training on release; the latter must be able to continue the studies which may have been interrupted by his period of service, or to develop that education so far received with a view to entering a trade or profession, or to undertaking training for these at the conclusion of his tour of duty in the Army. It is my intention to identify army education as closely as possible with civil education. A large number of the personnel will be militiamen, who must be in a position to resume their education on completion of service with a minimum of loss. This last point requires some little elaboration.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what he means by militiamen?

Most people know that the term "militia" is given to the men who are called up. Compulsory military service will interrupt that period of a young man's life normally devoted to all types of education and vocational and professional training. Much of this further education is in civilian life part time, and the provision of facilities for it both by local education authorities, employers, and voluntary bodies has already reached considerable proportions and is likely to develop further, especially in view of the Education Act of 1944. It is essential, therefore, that as far as the exigencies of military service allow, similar facilities should be made available during army service. Correspondence courses will play a particularly important role to meet the specialised needs of those seeking academic, professional, commercial and trade qualifications for their careers in civil life. In the interests of the Army and the individual, resettlement training should, we think, be provided during the latter months of his service for the soldier on a regular engagement. The object of such training will be to equip the soldier for his return to civil life and work by providing him with a knowledge of conditions and by encouraging him properly to obtain recognised trade or professional qualifications before leaving the army. It is clear, therefore, that the army must maintain close and continuous contacts with the main stream of education in the country. At the same time, those responsible for the public educational system will, we hope, recognise a definite responsibility to the militiaman during his compulsory service, and to the regular soldier during his engagement, and be prepared to make available such civilian educational resources as the army may be able to use.

May I say what a pleasure it has been to me to visit one or two of the colleges in the country? Indeed, I opened two information colleges and nothing pleased me more than to see the directors of education, the chairman of education committees, and the representatives from the education committees there present in full force, showing a very great interest indeed in what was taking place in regard to the education of the soldier. The formation of the Army Educational Advisory Board and the close liaison now existing between the War Office and the Ministry of Education are guarantees that the links which have already been forged with civil education will be maintained and strengthened. Nevertheless, it can be said it is my intention to continue army education on the broad lines which have proved so successful during the war, so that the present serving conscript will be able to take his place again in civil life with the minimum of interruption to his studies by reason of his military services, and so that the regular soldier will be able to settle down into a fruitful career in civil life strengthened and with his outlook broadened by his years in the army.

I think that there is no subject which touches the Members of this House and, indeed, of thoughtful people in the country more than the need for keeping young men, who are called into service for a year or two years or whatever it may be, in touch with that education which not only affects their profession but may affect their lives in the future both from mental and from character points of view. I can assure the Committee that I am giving regular attention to this matter, and I am determined that the man who goes in for a period and the man who gives many years of his life to the service of his country is going to have in this service contacts with the civilian organisations as well as what the army directly provides. He is going to have no less an opportunity for educational purposes than he would have had if he had remained in civil life.

As Members are aware, the Army has launched, as one hon. Gentleman said, a campaign for recruits. The nature of our future plans depends largely on the extent of the success of this campaign. It opened in Manchester and Liverpool at the end of May. At the outset with my colleagues who represent the other two Services and myself, I met representatives of the Press at a send off to the recruiting campaign. I want to take this opportunity of thanking those who were responsible for the Press of this country for the generous help they gave in launching this campaign. At a time when space in a newspaper is a serious matter, those responsible gave a prominent place to our plans and I very much appreciate their help. The campaign will reach its peak in the early autumn. As most people know, it has been held up owing to the celebrations on Victory Day, but it is about to open fire again. As I have said, the campaign will reach its peak in the early autumn with an intensive drive in the London area. So the campaign is still in its early stages, and it is too early yet to judge of its success. One thing I do wish to say is that an encouraging thing about it has been that, in the great centres in this country, those who are at the head of the local authorities have given their services freely, and have also shown their enthusiasm in this campaign.

For the young man prepared to work hard and to make the most of the many opportunities which will certainly come his way there is a good career offered by the modern Army. This I firmly believe. To such a man the Army can promise security of employment and ample chances of advancement. It is merit that governs promotion today in the Army whether to the commissioned or non-commissioned ranks. For those who enter under a normal regular engagement, the prospect is a return to civilian life while still young with the advantage of a broadened outlook, a healthy body, new skill and many new friends. For those who decide to make the Army a full career there is the added inducement of a useful pension. The pay is good and compared with civilian life the provision made for recreation and paid holidays can fairly be described as liberal.

I hope that I have shown, at any rate, how new recruits who answer the Army's appeal may expect to benefit themselves. They will, however, do much more than this. A large part of the Army is today engaged on the onerous, but essential, duty of bringing back order and normal conditions to many parts of the world. To assist in this urgent task, upon the fulfilment of which the prosperity of all so largely depends, is to benefit the whole community. The fact is that we can no more do without the soldier to win the peace than we could do without him to win the war. He has, therefore, every right to expect fair and sympathetic treatment, and so far as I can ensure it I can assure the Committee I am prepared to see that he gets that treatment.

6.1 p.m.

Before I come to the controversial part of my speech—and I shall have a great deal of criticism to make of the Minister's statement—I think it may be appropriate, and meet with the approval of all Members of the Committee, if I draw attention to the fact that we are dealing with a subject which concerns an institution in which millions of men in the 1914–18 war, and in the last war, laid down their lives. I think we should remember with gratitude those people who died, including 16 Members of this House, who happened to be Tory Members—although no one wants to carry political controversy beyond the grave.

On both sides of the Committee I am sure we should like to honour the names of those Members of the House, and the sons and relatives of other Members. There should be in our hearts, this afternoon, a feeling of gratitude to those people of whatever class, profession and position in life who laid down their lives for our country. It was a universal sacrifice; it was not a sacrifice of any one class, or religious opinion or belief, and we should be grateful for it. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his assent to what I have just said.

The right hon. Gentleman has a very disarming courtesy and charm. We all admit that but he can hardly—I am glad to see that the Leader of the House has just come in, because I have some observations to make about him, and I hope he will be good enough to remain to hear what I have to say, and also about the attitude of the London County Council towards recruiting before the war. It is most courteous of the right hon. Gentleman to come in at this moment.

Then the right hon. Gentleman will perhaps have the pleasure of reading in HANSARD tomorrow what I want to say. I was saying that the Secretary of State for War has a very disarming courtesy and charm, an opinion which, I know, will be shared by the whole Committee, because he is such a respected Member of this House. But this is no reason why we should not do our duty, and point out what we believe to be the grave deficiencies of his administration. I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Blackpool (Brigadier Low) for what he has said on this subject, because it needed saying. Nobody knows why the right hon. Gentleman was appointed to his office, but I think it was probably for this reason: The Prime Minister wanted to appoint someone with a very fine fighting record in the 1914 war, and as he looked around among his senior colleagues he found that, with the exception of himself and one or two others, it was rather hard to find such a person. The fact is that the less said about the 1914–18 record of some of the senior members of the Socialist Government the better. So, the Prime Minister chose the right hon. Gentleman. Today, the Minister is presented with a tremendous opportunity. The Army needs at this time a Haldane or a Caldwell and the right hon. Gentleman showed no indication that he in any way has nearly approached the grade of such men. He has an enormous opportunity, and I shall show what it is later in my speech.

Far more important than providing good furniture, and seeing that the trade unions are represented on the Territorial Army Associations, is the task of the right hon. Gentleman in being constitutionally responsible to the Crown, and to this House, for the Army. We are at one of the most critical stages of our history. Nobody will say that the situation is not critical. Looking abroad, how can anyone say that it is peaceful? Is the right hon. Gentleman exercising his responsibility? I think it is all the more necessary, in view of the fact that he is the only Defence Minister in the country at the moment. I know something about the Committee of Imperial Defence, because I was once a member of it. The right hon. Gentleman is solely responsible. That is the theme of my observations today, and I want to ask the Committee to decide whether the right hon. Gentleman is properly exercising his responsibility. Let us take his statement about the Territorial Army. It was of a most disappointing character. The right hon. Gentleman tells us, nearly a year after he has been in office, more than one year after VE-Day, and nearly one year after the Japanese war has ended, that he has decided to reconstruct the Territorial Army, that how it is to be reconstructed is now being worked out and closely examined. I say, in passing, that I am proud to have been a member of this magnificent Force, with which I served during the 1914–18 war.

When the right hon. Gentleman was heckled by some of my hon. Friends on this side he said he hoped there would be an announcement at the end of this year. We should not have got that unless we had had this Debate. For months past I have been asking Questions about it, and so have other of my hon. Friends. It is only because we put down this Vote today that we have had the announcement which the right hon. Gentleman has made to the Committee. What is it? It is that he has decided to reconstruct the Territorial Army, that how that is to be done is now being worked out and closely examined. That shows no spirit of Ministerial decision. If Haldane or Mr. Arnold Forster, those great War Ministers, had been at the War Office—and nobody knows this better than Members on the other side of the Committee—he would have got this decision a long time ago. I am very glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman is to reconstruct the Territorial Army. He may be assured of the fullest support from this side of the House for any proper scheme. We supported the Territorial Army between the wars. We asked people to join it when Members opposite, or their predecessors, were voting against the Army Estimates. I am glad to hear—and I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his courtesy in giving way to me when I raised the point—that trade unions are to be asked officially to appoint representatives to the Territorial Associations. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that this was a tremendous move forward; his voice quivered with emotion when he announced, a year after thinking about it, that he had decided to ask the trade unions to be represented. I do not think it is quite as important as all that. Nevertheless, I am glad these worthy gentlemen will be represented together with employers. I agree that it is a good thing to bring in both sides of the industry. But there was nothing to prevent them being represented before the war, except that most of them were so pacifist—

Would the; right hon. Gentleman inform the Committee how many county associations operated model rules which gave them the right to coopt members of the trade union movement and of employers' associations?

I am not a student of these matters. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] Hon. Members opposite should not get excited. I am not a student of the rules of the Territorial Association generally, but I can say that there were trade union representatives who were individually represented, in their private capacity, as members of certain associations. It is no use hon. Gentlemen opposite pretending that the trade unions were not pacifist before the war. They know the truth.

I wish to correct a point of fact. Appendix II of the Territorial Army Regulations provides for representatives of employers and workmen in industry. The matter did not depend on whether the individual was a pacifist or not; it depended on whether an invitation was issued by the county association.

Then the announcement of the Minister is of a more meagre character than I supposed. In other words, if it was possible to have these people represented, and some Territorial Associations did not do their duty, they are now being made to do so. I am glad to hear it.

It is an excellent thing; let us leave it at that. All I can say is that the Minister's announcement was of a most meagre character, and that I shall have plenty to say about the patriotism of Members opposite when I come to another part of my speech. Let them wait for that.

There is nothing I like more than being interrupted, but it seems that Members opposite are quite incapable of listening to an argument which they do not like, as they showed earlier today when my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was speaking.

Now that the excitement has subsided perhaps the noble Lord will resume his speech.

I beg the right hon. Gentleman, in the course of his consideration of matters connected with the reconstruction of the Territorial Army, to heed the point which was put by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Blackpool. The Territorial Army, when it is reconstructed, can do most valuable service in providing a number of different classes of technicians—I apologise for using that horrible modern term—such as drivers, electricians, radio operators and even cooks, who are a humble but necessary part of the military machine. There should be more efforts made to get specialist corps of that kind.

I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question or two about the Regular Army. He was most grateful to me when I said that I did not intend to ask him at this moment to state a target figure. I know he is an honourable man, and that he would not have made a statement unless he had a target figure in his mind.

Now that quiet has momentarily been restored I know the whole Committee will be in agreement that it is utterly impossible for the right hon. Gentleman, or anybody else, to build up an Army—

I agree with the Minister that the target must depend, to a considerable extent—and let us face this grim fact—on what happens in connection with the Peace Conference, and the attempt to make U.N.O. a workable body. What we should all agree upon—except any pacifists that may still be left in the Socialist Party—is that we must have a Regular Army of some kind. I hope I shall carry the Committee with me when I say that it should be the best paid Army with the best possible conditions, and that these should be generous enough to attract the very best type of man—[An HON. MEMBER: "That is a change of attitude."]—I quite agree it is a change in the attitude not of one party but of the House generally over generations, that that proposition should be generally accepted. Far too often in the past that has been neglected. The pay and conditions should be good enough to attract the flower of the population.

I was told by a very great soldier, no longer a regular soldier—though he is on the active list because he happens to be a field-marshal, and is a noble Lord in another place—that there is a feeling still in the Army among the men who would like to enlist for 12 years, that the Army is looked upon by the public as too much of an interlude and not a career. The point which my distinguished military friend put to me was that at the end of 12 years' service, as provided for in the Government scheme, if a man is not as successful as he would like to be—that is, if he does not reach commissioned rank or the highest non-commissioned rank—he may find himself no longer with a career and, in fact, he probably will be in that position. How can we get over that difficulty? Here I would make a strong appeal to the right hon. Gentleman. I maintain that a man who voluntarily joins the Army and is, therefore, ipso facto prepared to risk life and limb in peacetime, with the possibility at any time that he may be called upon to exercise his profession of arms, in any part of the world, is entitled to exactly the same rights and privileges before and on discharge as those compulsorily enlisted in war. May I have the right hon. Gentleman's attention for a moment? I think we have no right to say that, because a man has been compulsorily enlisted, the State will do certain things which it will not do for the Regular soldier. I do not think we ought to take that line, and I believe that on this point there will not be controversy between the two sides of the Committee. Going a step further, I would say that one of the most urgent things in this connection is for the right hon. Gentleman to get in touch with both trade unions and federations of employers, to see that when those men who have been trained, in technical trades, go out of the Army and are capable of earning their livelihood at high wages, they can at once step into industry. I do not want to make the position difficult—I know it is delicate—by referring to it further, but I hope that will be done. I think we are all agreed that what the right hon. Gentleman said about education was excellent.

There is one other point about recruitment before I come to consider the functions of the Army. Here I am afraid the period of quietude, the temporary anticyclone, is likely to be disturbed by gales from the Atlantic. I maintain that great psychological damage was done to the Regular Army between the wars, by the fact that in many quarters the profession of arms was represented as an undesirable one. Again and again one heard speeches in the old House of Commons in which attacks were made on what was called "militarism," when the profession of arms was represented as being disreputable. I am sorry to say there are some districts where, to the shame of the inhabitants, it was judged undesirable to have recruiting parades because of the hostility of the inhabitants to a display of militarism.

No. It is recorded in history that, under the leadership of the Lord President, the London County Council prohibited the use of London parks for the training of Territorials. All that had a very bad psychological effect upon recruiting for the Army. I hope we have got over that period now. It was in the 1920's and 1930's when the voice of the soldier, including those of the war leaders, was unheeded and the public preferred the shrill chirpings of the pacifists and the "parlour pinks." They do not chirp quite so much today on that subject; they chirp on a great many other subjects but not on pacifism. So I hope it will be possible to get all-party support for recruitment.

I do not want to press the right hon. Gentleman to give us his target figure, but I ask for the assent of both sides of the Committee in this matter and I hope it will agree with the views put in an admirable speech by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Blackpool, who speaks with great authority as a man with a very fine war record. I hope we shall realise that there must be some idea in the minds of the Government, and I hope we shall be eventually told what the target figure is for the Reguluar Army. Also, the Government have to think very closely, and I am sure they are doing it at this moment, about the need as soon as possible for dividing the work of the Army between what is an Army in the true sense of the word—being trained and waiting for the possibility, I hope very remote, of offensive action—and the Army which is merely a police force. The tragedy today is that all over Europe and parts of Asia the Army cannot get on with its training but is merely acting as a police force. The fact is that it is one of the most popular police forces in the world, and that every one wants the British Army to police its territory because, quite frankly, they can trust it as they do not trust the armies of many other Powers. That makes the position even more difficult.

On that point, having, I hope, sufficiently emphasised the fact that we must some time have disclosed the scheme of the Regular Army's size and how it is to be trained, I want to say a word about this police work of the Army. I do not want to deal with Palestine today because we are to have a Debate on it next week, but I would like on behalf of the Committee to pay tribute to the British Army in Palestine which is at present being subjected to the most terrible strain. I have one thing to say which I hope will not be misunderstood by anyone, particularly the inhabitants of Palestine. Quite properly the British Army—and it does not matter under which Government it is—wherever it is stationed, in any part of the world, when it is called upon to perform what I call police duties, shows the same tact, the same forbearance, the same sense of discipline, as does the London policeman. That is to say, it is almost instinctive in the British soldier not to use unnecessary force. He sees a crowd, perhaps the crowd threatens to throw stones and is aggressive but, unlike the soldiers of many Powers he hates to have the order to shoot, or to threaten them with shooting, but moves them on. That is right and proper and we must never give that up, but there is another form of attack on troops going on in Palestine at present. It is not a question of moving on disorderly crowds, it is a question of people with tommy-guns, with the deadliest weapons, attacking isolated posts. Whether they are Jews or Arabs does not affect my point. I hope that when the Financial Secretary replies he will assent to my proposition that while in the first case the traditional attitude of the British soldier must perforce be maintained to the full, in the second case, where these attacks are made, the troops have orders to use every possible offensive force in return. That is to say, if 40 armed Jews or Arabs attack a British soldier's post, it is just as much his duty to kill them as it is in war, because they are fighting with lethal weapons.

Though, of course, it would be a horrible idea that we should do it, and no Government and no individual in his senses would wish to do it, let these people in Indonesia and Palestine and elsewhere who talk about defying the British Army and say that they have the British Army on the run, realise that while it would be a most terrible thing for us to use that power, it is not a question of the British Army not being able to cope with these situations but that the British Army, quite properly, because we have a constitutional Government in this country, does not use all the force that it could use. Incidentally, I have a London paper in my hand which practically sympathises with the rebels. It is called "The Jewish Chronicle," and I shall ask the right hon. Gentleman to communicate with the Home Office to see if it has not been guilty of seditious libel. It refers to the people who murder our troops as patriots, and it attacks British troops. If there were really a stand-up fight in Indonesia or Palestine under modern conditions with modern weapons, we could reduce Tel-Aviv to a heap of stones, we could reduce every house occupied by either Jew or Arab to rubble. This thoroughly unsatisfactory state of affairs does not apply only to Palestine and Indonesia but elsewhere, where our Army, compulsorily enlisted, is being asked to do extremely distasteful work. Sooner or later that situation will have to be altered. I suggest that, wherever possible in those countries where there is a British Army in occupation, the right hon. Gentleman should endeavour to build up local armed police forces so that our Army does not have to deal with this unpleasant work of policing.

Why does the noble Lord associate Indonesia and Palestine? In Palestine the trouble is between the Jews and Arabs about the partitioning of the country, but in Indonesia the people want to be rid of the Dutch and, if our soldiers were taken out of Indonesia, they would get rid of the Dutch.

That is a perfectly fair point. It would, of course, be out of Order to pursue the question of Indonesia, so I will leave it at Palestine if it pleases the hon. Member. There is only one other point I want to make—again if I may have the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. Here is a case which is typical of many, and I should be very surprised if there were hon. Members opposite who had not had the same experience that I have had. I think there is something wrong with the manner in which the "B" scheme of release is? being operated. The case I have in my hand, which I will give to the right hon. Gentleman afterwards, is that of a prewar territorial, therefore a patriotic man. He served seven years altogether in the Army. He was released under the "B" scheme, but was told that the condition of his release—and I think that this is very wrong—was that he should be employed in his own profession as a War Office land agent. Rather foolishly he consented. Two months before the end of the period when he would have been released anyhow, his firm having been in very grave difficulties, he went to the authorities and asked if he could not be allowed as a "B" discharge man to exercise his profession in his own business rather than continue to be a War Office land agent. He was refused. There are a great many cases of that kind and I should like the right hon. Gentleman to look into them.

Despite what I have said in some parts of my speech, I would like to assure the right hon. Gentleman that there is a very fair chance of removing the question of the size and function of the Army from the party arena. As my hon. and gallant Friend who initiated the Debate said, that was possible in the 1906 Parliament when we had a period of far more acute political controversy than we have today. So acute were our differences then that even at Question time the two parties shouted almost continuously at each other. I remember—if the Committee would allow me to be reminiscent—that one of the pleasing phrases of those days, when the Liberal Party was supposed to be associated with Jewish interests, was "Order in the Ghetto." That was the kind of atmosphere in which we lived, yet we had what was practically all-party agreement on Mr. Haldane's Army policy, and he was the father of the modern Army.

There is still a reasonable opportunity of getting an agreed Army policy. We on this side are not being extravagant in our demands. We realise the limits imposed by our national resources; we realise the limits imposed by the needs of industry, and we realise the great competing demands of the other two services for manpower. We shall not be unreasonable, but what we do demand, and because we have not got it in the right hon. Gentleman's speech this afternoon we may, at a later stage, have to move a reduction in the Vote, is decision and leadership by the right hon. Gentleman. We want decision on these questions about the Territorial Army, decision on these other matters, and a general impression that the right hon. Gentleman means business, that he means to put the Army in the forefront of the Ministerial picture, and regards his task as, at least as honourable, as indeed it is as onerous, as that of any other Minister. It is just as important as coal, food or anything else, because without the Army there would have been no Britain in the early days of 1914, nor after 1940. If the right hon. Gentleman will approach the matter in that spirit, we will give him every support, but if he continues to "haver" in making decisions, very regretfully, because nobody likes voting against the right hon. Gentleman—indeed there is nobody in the House I more dislike voting against than the right hon. Gentleman—we shall have to vote against him when the opportunity occurs.

6.35 p.m.

When I came to this House I hoped to learn a great deal from the noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) about the institution of which I found myself a Member. I tried to understand his attitude towards the customs and Rules of the House, and I think that this afternoon I have got a clue to his conduct. He tells us that his Parliamentary experience was gained first in the 1906 Parliament. Could I have the noble Lord's attention for a moment?

Of course, I shall be very pleased to give it. It is a very proper remark. But I am not yet Secretary of State for War, and the reason I asked for the attention of the Secretary of State for War was that I wanted him to do something.

The noble Lord has told the Committee about what happened in the 1906 Parliament, where I gather the whole of Question time was devoted by Members on both sides of the House to shouting at one another and exchanging remarks which in these days would be regarded as being on the level of the gutter. As a matter of fact, it looks as if the noble Lord has not completely forgotten the habits and manners of those times. I am at one with him, and with the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for North Blackpool (Brigadier Low), in believing that the affairs of the Army should be taken out of the arena of party politics. There is a great deal of common ground between us, but I have never in my life heard a speech, either in the House or outside it, more calculated to throw a subject into the cockpit of controversy than the speech of the noble Lord. I am at one with him in paying tribute to the men who have worn the King's uniform and have died in their country's service. I am at one with him in paying tribute to hon. Members of this House who have given their lives to the service of their country, even though they are not of my political faith. I see no reason why the noble Lord should not also give assent to the fact that the over-whelming majority of the members of the working class are just as patriotic as are the members of the class from which he comes.

That is exactly what I said, with the assent of everybody in the Committee except the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who for some reason was very excited while I was speaking on what I thought was a solemn subject, for he bobbed up and down and seemed to be suffering from some form of paroxysm. I said, and I was cheered by the right hon. Gentleman, that this was not a party, class or religious question, and every class, every type of person in the country, had given equal sacrifice. I said so.

In the recollection of the Committee the noble Lord went out of his way to charge members of the trade union movement with pacifism, or with what he called anti-militarism, and he implied that they were unpatriotic and had refrained from backing the county associations running the Territorial Army. That is absolutely untrue. The county associations—I will turn my attention to that subject first—and the Territorial Army, between the wars, were in the doldrums; there is no doubt about that. The nation had fought a great war, crippling casualties had been suffered, and as a result it is true that not only in the party of which I have the honour to be a member, but in other parties also, there was a wave of pacifism which was more of a revulsion of feeling against the terrible price we had paid in the 1914–18 war than it was of a lack of patriotism. I do not want to probe too far into this point, but I want to give recognition of the fact that the treatment which the Armed Forces got in the 1920s was very largely due to the way in which the 1914–18 war was fought. This nation of ours will go on paying the price for the casualties suffered on the Somme long after we have passed on. Neither the noble Lord nor his generation can escape responsibility in that connection. During 1916 the lives of the men of the class to which I belong were very largely spent to provide an exercise for the military commanders drawn exclusively from his class to learn their job.

Really that is a monstrous charge, and the hon. and gallant Member, if he has any sense of decency, will withdraw it. During that particular era, I was in Gallipoli as a regimental officer—

No, the hon. Member was there himself. It is a monstrous charge for the hon. and gallant Gentleman referring to me specifically to say that I was responsible for the Somme, or that my class was responsible for what happened. If he does not withdraw it, let him bear forever the shame of having said it.

I will very gladly withdraw without reservation. But really the noble Lord is fond of giving, and must learn to take. I want to get on with the job of discussing how the postwar Army shall be able to tackle its job. I will work with him to that end but I am not going to stand here and take all that he gives without giving something in return.

There is no doubt that during the postwar years the Territorial Army lost the affection in which it had been held at the end of the last war. It is also true that it was a closed social preserve. The question of military efficiency in the choice of officers had nothing to do with the choice made. I am prepared to accept that the county association which has the privilege of being presided over by the noble Lord is quite different from every county association in the country. But I know that in the majority of county associations of the country it was quite impossible for any working class lad, however enthusiastic he might be, to get a commission. We reaped the reward of this when the war came. No word of mine is, I hope, being uttered in any criticism of those men who gave of their spare time to prepare themselves to the service of their country. That is not my intention. I believe we have to use the part-time services of all sections of the community for the service of their country whenever the need arises. The right hon. Gentleman will be well advised to go out 100 per cent. to democratise the county associations and see that they are not social hunting grounds, but organisations rooted in the life of the community as a whole, so that we can develop over the years something like the spirit of the Home Guard. I hope very much that at the end of the year when the right hon. Gentleman comes forward with his proposals, the scheme will be based on the lessons of the Home Guard and will resemble very much less the Territorial Army of the past. That I regard as fundamental.

The Territorial Army as it was organised in the 1914–18 war and as it was organised in the period from the end of that war to 1933 was organised for home defence. Officers and men had the job of seeing to the security of these islands. Indeed, the obligation they undertook was limited to service in these islands. But, in 1933 the situation changed because, according to Territorial Army Regulations, they had to tackle the job of Imperial defence and organisation was linked to that of the Regular Army. Part of the difficulties the Territorial Army met with when embodied was that that paragraph in the Regulations was just words, and little was done to give effect to it, with the result that when the testing time came on embodiment, and Territorial units took their part in the role of anti-aircraft defence, not only the officers, but senior N.C.Os. were found wanting. Again, I do not criticise. These officers and men had done their best and, for patriotic reasons, had given of their time very often when it was not popular to do so. It became the very unpleasant task of inspecting officers to go round and indicate that so-and-so would have to go, or be reduced in rank when really what had happened was that they had got a little long in the tooth in serving an ideal which, when translated into fact, found no place for them.

We ought to look very carefully at the build-up of these reserve forces—for that is what they are—and see whether we should not take the Home Guard model and use the supplementary reserve. The Government should encourage, by financial inducements if it be their will, and by whatever means are open to them, men and women to give more part-time service to train themselves for an emergency, which the House hopes will not arise. But, when that service comes to be given, should the emergency arise, it should be given in units of the Regular Army, except that part of it which takes the form of the Home Guard. One of the great needs in an emergency will be a sufficient number of troops able to contain paratroops if they were landed. That is a factor which only emerged during this war but it has to be taken into account when organising part-time service.

The hon. and gallant Member has not offered a solution to a very valuable point which he brought forward. That is, that the reason why the personnel is not always what might be desired at the outbreak of war is very largely that these people who could give most time were themselves least in demand in industry and other walks of life. How is the hon. and gallant Gentleman going to solve that solution? That is really the cause of there being a certain number of officers and N.C.O.s not fit for their job at the outbreak of war.

I thank the hon. and gallant Member for Penrith and Cockermouth (Lieut.-Colonel Dower) for calling my attention to that point. What I have in mind is that if a part-time soldier is giving service in a unit based on his locality, when the time comes to give full-time service, he should serve as a member of the Regular unit, and the fact that he would not be fully trained would not be so important as if the whole unit were untrained. I use the illustration of a searchlight regiment. If the whole unit's training was not as good as it might be, an inspecting officer would probably have to remove most of the senior officers, whereas, if those officers by seniority and training, had reached positions of command, it should be possible to absorb them. Thus, there would be this potential reserve trained as highly as it could be trained without the terrible problem of having a large number of units—as many as 12 divisions—suddenly called out to fulfil an operational role when in actual fact their training did not fit them for the task.

I was going on to deal with the policing role of the Regular Army. On one or two occasions I have spoken of the need for building up a reserve. I hope that this evening the Financial Secretary will say a word or two on this subject. During the period from 1919 to 1939 it was necessary to call out Section A of the Army Reserve, and unless that Reserve had been available, we should have found ourselves in an awkward situation on a number of occasions—Chanak in 1922, Shanghai in 1927 and Palestine in 1936. We built up a Reserve, which was available and could be called out at 24 hours' notice, a Reserve that came up in a happy frame of mind. It consisted of trained Regular soldiers who, having completed their Colour service, had undertaken an additional obligation.

I would draw the attention of the Financial Secretary to the fact that at the end of the 1914–18 war, the Government of the day paid a great deal of attention to the question of a Reserve, and we rapidly built up a highly trained Reserve. They were called up in 1921 on account of industrial trouble. Though I am not advocating the use of Reservists for that purpose, it is absolutely essential in the times in which we live, and every day makes it more important, that attention should be given to this problem of building up a Reserve which will be rapidly available, so that the Government will not be forced one day, perhaps, to dislocate the life of the community by calling back a number of classes released under the release scheme. I should regard that as wholly unfortunate, and I hope that my hon. Friend will give consideration to this point.

The other matter with which I would like to deal is education in the Army. When the right hon. Gentleman was making his statement, he said that the Army education scheme would be built up in such a way that vocational training would be available to enable men to resettle in civilian life. I hope he will reconsider this matter of the soldier's vocational training, particularly in relation to those young men who are coming into the Regular Army on a normal engagement. Their training for settlement in civilian life should not be left until the last six months of their service but should start on the day they go in. I know it is a problem, but I am not very happy about the way in which Army education is developing. I say that as one who was interested in it before the war and who, in a variety of capacities, tried to do his best for it during the war. I am extremely unhappy. I know what happened at the end of the last war. There was as much good will for the Army in 1919 and 1920 as there is today, but that good will was evaporated. Good will is certainly present in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman. There is no Member of this House who is more anxious to do his best for those who are serving in the Army than he is, but I am afraid that as the years go by the very liberal statement he has made today will bear quite a different interpretation.

At the end of the last war—this may be within the recollection of the noble Lord—a committee was set up to consider, among other subjects, education in the Army. It was a distinguished committee including the Master of Balliol and the Foreign Secretary. The Secretary was the present Lord Privy Seal. They reported, and said that education in the Army should stand in the same relation to the universities as does the R.A.M.C. to the B.M.A. For a variety of reasons, the contact between the universities and Army education was broken, although the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), speaking in this House in August, 1919, said that henceforth education would be an integral part of the soldier's training. The facts are that long before the outbreak of this last war, education in the Regular Army had become a mere matter of passing examinations and had nothing to do with any modern conception of education.

Now we find my right hon. Friend once again setting up what is now called the Educational Advisory Board, which is not an independent body. It is a Committee set up in the War Office, by the War Office, and answerable to the War Office. What fills me with horror is to find that the Director of Military Training is a member of that Committee. I have nothing against him personally, but his job is not on the "A" side. He is exclusively concerned with training. I regard the setting up of this committee as a thoroughly retrogade, I may say thoroughly reactionary, step. I deplore the absence of the contact with the universities which, after working so well through the war, is once again in danger of being lost. I hope that my right hon. Friend will reconsider this matter, because I know that he wants to do the right thing here. I think that he has been badly advised. I understand the reasons for it. At the present time the Army is going through a difficult phase. I hope that he and his advisers will look at the experiences of the 1914–18 war, and at what happened between the two wars, and will draw the moral that is to be found therein.

I do not believe my right hon. Friend will get all the recruits he wants if he accepts the advice of the hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool on the question of rates of pay. The young man who goes into the Regular Army goes in for a hundred and one reasons. I am quite sure he does not sit down and work out rather nicely exactly what he will get. He is attracted by the possibility of travel, by the possibilities of adventure; very often he is repelled by the humdrum existence of his everyday life, and goes away to escape it. I am certain that the best recruiting sergeant is not the fellow with the ribbon round his hat but the Regular soldier who, at the end of his service, comes out and can look the world straight in the eyes, is proud of the Army of which he has been a member, and can say to his sons, his relations and young friends, "Go along, my lads, go and join, as I did. I only wish I had the chance again."

6.59 p.m.

I am sure that a great many of us agree with the words of the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley (Colonel Wigg). We all appreciate that he has plenty of Colour service behind him, and service with the Education Corps, which gives him every reason to speak as he did. I wish to detain the Committee for a moment or two on the main question of the Army, especially the Territorial Army. We all feel the greatest sympathy with the Secretary of State for War. I realise that he has been put in a difficult position. I ventured to interrupt him, and he was good enough to give way, in regard to the date when he thought a statement would be made in regard to the future makeup of the Defence Services. I quite see that, until U.N.O. gets going, and a report from the Security Council is available, it is particularly difficult for the Government to come down with a very definite statement. But, like it or not, until that can be settled, there is going to be no possibility of building up the Army and of the Army taking its place in the Defence Forces of the country.

I have no right to say that unless I can explain it. If we read through previous Debates, we find that it has been made quite clear that the annual intake, as it is at present, is round about 150,000 men a year. It is quite easy to work out the number of years' service you want to get, if you are to arrive at a figure laid down by the Chief of Staffs Committee and by Washington as our proper contribution to the Defence Forces of U.N.O., or if you work on the basis of the requirements for the United Kingdom as a part of the British Commonwealth. We know the material we have got; it is only 150,000 men a year. Assuming that the call-up service for 18 months is continued in this militia—call it what you will—which is called up for national service, and that, when the recruit has completed his training, he has to do some reserve service under a Territorial Army, and he is liable for four and a half years' service on top of his eighteen months, that will give us, probably, the figure which the Prime Minister himself mentioned when he discussed the White Paper "Statement Relating to Defence." Any hon. Member can work out the figures for himself. There is no magic about them.

It is quite obvious that we must have a voluntary Army for peace purposes and for occupying those nodal points through out the world where it has always been necessary to station British troops for the defence of our communications. We have a new obligation now; we do not know yet where the troops which will be evacuated from India will go, or where the troops from the Middle East will finally settle down. I quite understand that the Financial Secretary cannot be expected to answer all these conundrums, because they are not solved yet. There are too many imponderables for him to say where we are cutting down. We are really faced with this question: Are we in a position to face any risk or danger that might confront us? The right hon. Gentleman is responsible to the Crown and to this House for the efficiency of the land Forces of the Crown. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who preceded me is not now, I see, in his place. It used to be the rule that hon. Gentlemen remained to hear the speech subsequent to their own. I hope that that practice will not be done away with, because it will be impossible to carry on a Debate properly, unless that rule is observed. While hon. Gentlemen may very well be thirsty—

But the noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) retired before the conclusion of the speech of the hon. Member who followed him.

Anyhow, two wrongs do not make a right. I am trying to point out, in order to help the Chair and the prestige of the House generally, that it will be a sorry day when hon. Members come down here with speeches in their pockets, shoot them off and leave the House again. That is not Debate, but I leave it to the noble Lord to argue out the question with the hon. Member opposite. I regret the absence of the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley, but he will read my speech in HANSARD. I think it is most unfortunate that, at the present moment, the very able military correspondents of certain newspapers are not now giving the same amount of attention in their newspapers as formerly to this most important problem and are not trying to educate the country to see the problems which we have to face and how we are facing them. During the war, the special military correspondent of "The Times," Captain Falls, educated the country by a series of brilliant articles on policy and all the rest of it. Major Shepherd, in the "Daily Herald," produced a series of articles which were well worth reading, and always very sensible, and I think that if these gentlemen contributed a little more today they could do a great deal to help this recruiting.

Owing to the shortage of newsprint, the Debates in this House are not sufficiently known in the country, though, no doubt, when a Minister makes an important statement, it receives a certain amount of publicity. What we want is the repetition to people who read a particular newspaper, by somebody whose name they know, of what they believe to be the facts, and I am sure that Captain Falls, Major Shepherd, Lieut.-General Martin, of the "Daily Telegraph", and Mr. Alexander Clifford, of the "Daily Mail", could be of great assistance to the right hon. Gentleman and the War Office. What they would produce would I am sure be far better than the ordinary "hand-outs" which come from the War Office and which nobody respects because they are so biased. What we want is something handed in to the War Office, by the military correspondents which people will read.

Yes, and the B.B.C., but we must not discuss that now. We should explain what the Army is for and what its future problems are.

I would like to return to the general question of the set-up of the Army. I see that the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Dudley is now back in his place. I entirely agree with what he said about the Committee appointed in 1920 to deal with education in the Army. I was a Member of this House at that time, and I was Secretary to the Army Committee here, and I remember very well those Debates about the future of the Army and education. It is curious how history repeats itself. Everything said in this Debate today was equally well said in 1919 and 1920. As the hon. and gallant Gentleman said, the Army is still popular but misunderstood, and we must be careful to see that it does not slump in public esteem. One way of preventing that is to encourage interest in the private soldier and in what he is doing. I entirely agree with the statement of the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley that the young man in the Army does not sit down and try to work out every sixpence he is going to get, but goes in for a square deal. He is anxious for a life of adventure and to see the world. That is an attitude of mind for which we are responsible in this House, and we should see that they get that treatment, and that is why I feel that there ought to be more of these Debates, when this matter is so important.

I want to mention the position of the Territorial Army. I am very much alarmed about the present position. We have got the call-up men doing a period of service, and, afterwards, some reserve service. We may have to have a voluntary Army for overseas, and, in addition, we must have our home defence Army. What is the policy of the War Office? Can the Financial Secretary definitely say that all these young men called up for training and doing their four and a half years are to be trained in what we knew in the Territorial Army as cadres, or does he regard the Territorial Army as a little Army by itself, with a training period that will give something up to 400,000 men? I happen to be vice-chairman of a territorial association. We receive letters from the War Office from time to time, and in those letters we are told that the units are in what is called "suspended animation." It is a dreadful expression. The officers and men do not know quite what it means, and they do not like the sound of it. We in the Territorial Associations do not know what it means except that these units are to be kept alive, that their names are to be retained and that we have a hope for their future.

When we have a reply I hope that we may be told what is the role of the Territorial Army. Is it to be in isolation as it was before, or will it be an auxiliary Army whose main purpose will be to train the men who come up annually or every two years for training, and in that role play a really important part? I do not see how we are to get the officers and the non-commissioned officers unless, we get them from what we used to know as the Territorial Army. In 1936, in the Territorial Association with which I have to deal we had 880 men in every unit. In 1938, just before the war, we had over 3,000, which is rapid expansion. The work that was done by the secretaries of the Territorial Army Associations can never be recognised fully. Their's was unselfish and magnificent work, assisted very much by the War Office. But we do not want to get into that position again. We cannot have the thing like a concertina, going in and out. We must have a planned policy and work to it. As the Secretary of State said, there ought to be a very close association with the cadets. How are the cadets going to benefit? Surely it would help if the right hon. Gentleman would say here and now that when the boy in the cadets who gets Certificate "A" is called up, that fact will be taken into account, so that his chances of becoming an n.c.o. shall be recognised. If that were done we would be encouraging the cadets. We would get a lot of keen boys. We could start by giving them a very good education, and encourage them in every way to learn something about the mechanics of the army.

The Secretary of State said one other thing, and that was in regard to the "tail." I do not think hon. Members realise what the "tail" means now. Somebody said that it was one in four. I think it is much more like 7½ or 8 to one. The "tail" is getting longer and longer, as mechanisation becomes more and more important. We are faced with a most astonishing conundrum. In the training of the whole Army we must recognise that the tail does wag the dog, and it is very necessary to see that those people who come forward for the mechanisation and Supply services are well qualified. There are masses of men in garages and workshops all over the country. The old system whereby one earmarked a lorry for duty in an emergency was a rotten system because there were all kinds of lorries and no means of servicing them. We could pay civilians who were good mechanics so much, and call them up, give them their training; we would then get first class men and we would merge the trained civilian population in with the Army. It is nonsense to say that it is the soldiers who fight in modern war. It is the country as a whole which fights, and we must always emphasise that. I hope there will be no snobbishness in the future in offering the best facilities for educational training to auxiliary officers as well as to regular officers. They ought to be able to attend staff colleges. There ought to be interchanges between this country and the Dominions and the Colonies of officers and non-commissioned officers. We ought deliberately to send out teams and organise competitions of one sort and another, because the more we can get an understanding as between the people in this country and the people overseas the better it will be.

We have now come to a stage of great crisis in the world, and I do not feel at all happy about it. I am all the more unhappy because I do not feel that we are ready to meet any sudden emergency. We are being caught with one foot off the ground, and it is not a pleasant position. I do not think the country appreciates what the dangers are. We in the House of Commons will be very much to blame if we do not first of all sympathise with the Secretary of State and his colleagues owing to the difficulties created internationally which make it hard for them to make up their minds. But that will be no excuse for responsible Ministers of the Crown being unable to satisfy Parliament that they have done all that they can do; so that if in a few weeks or months we are met with some overwhelming danger, those Ministers will be able to show that they have recognised their responsibilities and taken the whole House into their confidence. If we have any risk in the immediate future, all the schemes for Socialist advancement will be swept away. The House of Commons as a whole should be certain that the Secretary of State for War is strong enough, with his colleagues, to ensure that decisions are taken which will make this country safe from attack.

I hope the hon. Gentleman will accept my apologies for my absence earlier in his speech.

I would like to say one or two words on the subjects raised in the important speech of the Secretary of State, and also by the hon. Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn). The first subject to which I wish to refer is the question which is fundamental to the whole discussion, namely, that of manpower, because all the other subjects that we have been discussing revolve around the question of how many men will be required for the postwar Army and how those men are to be recruited. Therefore, the principal point which we have to face is that of the future of the system of compulsory military service in this country. I believe the truth on this subject to be this: I believe that the vast majority of the people in this country are opposed to the continuance of conscription as a permanent system. At the same time, I believe that the vast majority of the people in Britain agree to the continuance of the system of compulsory military service in order that general demobilisation may take place, and so long as our military commitments overseas remain as heavy a burden as they are today upon the Government. Therefore, I think the Government have been right to produce their interim decision regarding the call-up, which takes us up to the end of the year 1948, with a reduction in the period of the call-up, making clear how the young men in 1947 and 1948, at any rate, are to fare so far as military service and their industrial and educational careers are concerned.

We must consider this question of conscription not from the point of view of principle, which, I think, is an academic form of discussion, but from the point of view of the provision of the required number of men for meeting the heavy commitments of this country, in relation to the size of the population, during a period when, after a very prolonged war, the natural desire of almost every man in the country is to get out of the Army and to enjoy civil life.

There are two very important factors affecting this question of recruitment. The first is the fact that we are in a period of demobilisation after six years of war, and the second is the enormous requirement for industry, and the heavy pressure upon the young men at school, and the technical opportunities that are presented to them, because of the severe shortage of manpower in every sphere. There are those two factors operating against recruitment under the voluntary system at present. We have to accept the continuance of the system of compulsory service for the period of the next two years.

I very much agree with the point that has been made in this Debate, and in previous Debates on the Army, regarding the attraction held out to young men to undertake service in the Regular Army, that it is not merely—certainly not wholly as the hon. Member for Abingdon pointed out, a question of the pay that is offered. It is a question of the overall picture of the opportunities that are presented by life in the Army, and what the Secretary of State has to consider is not merely the rates of pay, but the overall opportunities presented to young men, by comparison with the opportunities in civil life of a young man going into industry, or into a profession, or having a university education. He has to consider the comparison there, because that comparison is certainly made by the young men, and by their parents, their school teachers, and so on.

I agree with the noble Lord that that point has been made by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee. I want to carry it a little further, and to analyse from two points of view the question of how far an Army career—and I am talking of it from the point of view of voluntary recruitment—is a career open to the talents. There are two points with which we are concerned. The first is the question of the chances of promotion to officer rank, and the second is the point that was brought up by the hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool (Brigadier Low), the chances of technical education and technical advancement in the Army. They are points arising out of what the Secretary of State said about the future of Army education.

Many things have been said about the democratisation of the Armed Forces as a whole. Democratisation has been mentioned in this Debate in relation to the Territorial Army. What is the actual position in relation to the chances of promotion of the ordinary young man to officer rank? In answer to a recent Parliamentary Question the Secretary of State gave an analysis, from the educational point of view, of the chances of promotion which, I think, is of interest to the Committee in discussing this question. In his reply to a recent Question on the educational background of those who took up commissions during the summer of 1945, in the months of July and August, it was found that 34 per cent. of those taking commissions came from public schools; that 16 per cent. came from grant-aided independent schools; and four per cent. from independent schools receiving no grant from the Ministry of Education. On the other side, it was found that 20 per cent. of those commissioned during that time came from elementary schools That is a point that must be taken into account when we are talking of the chances of promotion of the ordinary young man recruited into the Army and it shows the Secretary of State that he could go considerably further towards making democratisation, in regard to the chances of promotion, a reality. He must bear in mind that those from the first set of schools I mentioned, from whom were drawn some 50 per cent. of the officers commissioned in that period, came from less than 10 per cent. of the population, whereas those who go to elementary schools comprise more than 90 per cent. of the boys going to school. He must have a policy to give greater chances of promotion to officer rank to those coming from elementary and secondary schools.

Taking the second point, the question of technicians, about which something was said by the hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool, it is interesting, again, to study the figures of the intakes now into the primary centres, and their allocation to different corps in the Army, a question with which I have been somewhat concerned, because a large number of the parents in my constituency have made representations to me about the position of engineering apprentices and, in particular, the effect upon engineering apprenticeships of the call-up. There are engineering apprentices in the Army today who have become medical orderlies and general sanitary men, and whose skill has not been used, and who cannot, apparently, be fitted by the Ministry of Labour into jobs of a technical character, or given opportunities of advancing them selves when undergoing compulsory service. In the last quarter of last year and the first of this year, in analysing the output of the primary centres, we find the position is that four per cent., roughly—I am taking both quarters—of those who came out of the primary training centres went into the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers; eight per cent. into the Royal Corps of Signals; some 11 per cent. into the Royal Engineers; and between two per cent. and five per cent. went into the Royal Armoured Corps. This is by comparison with the 30 per cent. plus who went into the infantry and the 12 per cent. who went to be gunners. That gives some idea of the restrictive—

May I ask the hon. Gentlemen whether he is implying that the Royal Artillery is not of a technical character? I can assure him there are many aspects of the Royal Artillery which are highly technical.

I am not implying that any of these corps exclude technicians. Certainly, all these corps have technicians and offer certain opportunities, but there is a great deal of difference between the number of technicians, proportionately, in the corps and in the opportunities which they offer, from the point of view of the study of mechanics and engineering for example. There is great interest amongst young men in this country in these subjects and in getting qualifications in them. There is, certainly, today a very restricted opportunity, from the point of view of tradesmen, and the restriction increases as time goes by. But as the hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool said, there will be required in the Army in the future a greater proportion of technicians. It is a fact that whenever a war comes we have a greater degree of mechanisation, and require more technicians in the Army, so that there are then greater opportunities. In peace time there is a decline in the offer of opportunities for men to become technicians and skilled tradesmen. I want the attention of the Secretary of State to be drawn to the opportunities in the Army from that point of view, in relation to his programme of education.

This programme of education is regarded by some as a kind of "extra," as something put into the Army to make it look a bit more attractive and laid on as a form of "mental comforts." But the question of education is, in my opinion, fundamental in the Army to the chances of promotion, because the increase of democracy in the Army, and everywhere else, is linked up with the educational opportunities. It is fundamental, also, to attracting potential technicians, to join the Army in order to gain technical qualifications, so that, when they have finished their period of engagement, they come out of the Army, not merely having trained themselves as professional soldiers but also as technicians who can undertake a civil job. I should like to thank the Secretary of State for his statement on that subject of education. It must be considered and expanded as a lever to give better chances of promotion and better technical education.

7.30 p.m.

May I say a word or two about the Territorial Army, speaking as the chairman of a Territorial Association? The Secretary of State told us today that it was proposed to reconstruct the Territorial Army, and that the conditions were being closely examined. He also said when introducing the Army Estimates that the identity of the first line Territorial units was to be preserved. That statement was welcome, I am sure, to this House, and it was very much welcomed in the counties and districts from which the Territorial units are derived. Neither today nor at any other time have we been told anything more about this pious intention, and I think that we ought to be told much more about the intentions of the Secretary of State in that direction. It is very hard to believe that the professional advisers of the Government have not given, at this late period after the war, some attention to a subject upon which decisions will have to be taken. Meanwhile, the Territorial Army units which are in existence—nearly all of whom are still serving abroad on occupational duties—are gradually fading and wasting away. At intervals, the Territorial Army Associations receive information that such and such a unit is being placed in what is called euphoniously a "state of suspended animation." Why that process cannot be called by the old name of disembodiment I do not know. The notices are no longer, as they were until quite recently, marked secret, but they have not infrequently arrived after the process of placing the unit in suspended animation has actually taken place.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman will no doubt remember that in a previous Debate he tackled the War Office, or its representative in this House, for marking too many documents "Secret," and I hoped that he would pay a little tribute now to the acceptance by the War Office of one or two of his suggestions.

I was now about to refer to that. I began by saying that not so many documents are now marked "Secret" as there were a short time ago, and I gladly acknowledge that the situation is much better in that respect. I would say however that not infrequently notices arrive to say—no doubt it takes a long time in transmitting them from Germany or Austria—that a unit is being placed in a state of suspended animation when that has already been done. It is fait accompli.

I wonder if the Financial Secretary would give a little information as to whether a system cannot be adopted, which was very successful at the end of the 1914–18 war, of sending home, when a unit was disembodied, a small cadre to this country to keep the unit in existence. It brought back its records, and it consisted of very few men, but the unit did, in some form, come back to this country with, so to speak, all the honours of war. I think that might very well be adopted again. Occasionally—"if time permits," I believe is the expression—a notice is sent and months later a cadre is actually sent; but that is not a recognised system and it is not always done.

The Secretary of State said that it was not intended to ask for volunteers for the Territorial Army before the organisation was ready to receive them. He intimated that that was not likely to be before the end of this year. I suggest that ex-Territorial soldiers should be asked to volunteer now for further Territorial Army service. For the present there need be no training, but the unit should be kept in existence and in the flesh. Commanding officers and company commanders should Le appointed, and the unit should be based on its old headquarters, which could be used for social gatherings, rifle clubs and perhaps for a few parades, not for training, but on anniversaries and special occasions, so that the unit could be represented and its spirit kept going. I believe that many old Territorial soldiers would volunteer under those circumstances, and that the units would be kept in being, and ready to take up training and to absorb recruits when the time came. If no such steps are taken to keep the units in being and to keep touch with their personnel, I fear that men will drift away and that the units will lose touch with them. It will be, as indeed it was after the 1914–18 war, very much more difficult to re-raise units when the time is considered ripe to do so.

I did not intend to revert again to possible future conditions of service in the Territorial Army as I made some suggestions in the Debate on 14th March on the introduction of the Army Estimates, but I hope that this matter will be carefully considered. May I say one thing which I believe would add enormously to the future efficiency of the Territorial Army? That would be if every young man, whatever the conditions of compulsory service are to be, had to do an initial compulsory training of three months. That would give him the elementary training which is so much required and the lack of which was conspicuously felt in the prewar Territorial Army. The difficulty was that one had a number of recruits who had never had a proper elementary training, and one had to try to teach them higher forms of training which many of them were not ready to absorb. I suggest that that might also be a solution of the occupational or educational difficulty—those for instance who want to go to the universities—if men, after three months' training, could go to their vocation or university and continue to serve under Territorial conditions, which I believe they could be made to do efficiently and without interference with either their occupation or their education, provided they had that three months at the beginning.

I pass to the conditions of service of the Regular Army, and again I would say we have really been told nothing about either the future organisation of the Regular Army or of the organisation of its smaller units. We were all very glad to hear the Secretary of State say in introducing the Army Estimates that the regimental system is to be maintained, but there is very much in the present War Office policy to neutralise the value of that regimental system. For instance, there is the drafting of reinforcements going abroad to areas rather than to units, the consequence of which is units in what, I believe, are known as non-priority areas—that dreadful word "priority" and that other word "non-priority" have even got into the Army—get drafts mostly composed of men of other regiments, while units in priority areas get drafts indiscriminately from their own and other regiments. Moreover, the units in non-priority areas are below strength, due to demobilisation and inadequate reinforcements. Such men as are left sometimes do not belong to the regiment in question. They have been overworked, and have to do an excessive amount of guard duty owing to the shortage of numbers and they are not attracted by the new pay and conditions which are being offered. In consequence, they are reluctant to volunteer for regular service. Perhaps in consequence of these conditions—I do not say it is so, but I say it is liable to happen—there may be a deterioration in morale which would be the most serious thing of all.

There is a great shortage of experienced warrant officers and non-commissioned-officers, and I would urge that these warrant officers and non-commissioned officers should be paid higher and not only higher but higher in proportion to the private soldiers, always providing they are qualified. If they are not qualified they ought not to get substantive promotion. Efficient non-commissioned officers are worth much more in proportion than private soldiers, and good non-commissioned officers are not made by merely putting stripes on their arms. That does not make a man a good non-commissioned officer. It must be realised that, long-term warrant officers and noncommissioned officers are absolutely essential for the training of the Territorial Army, and assuming there is compulsory service, of compulsory enlisted soldiers. There is a shortage of officers, at any rate officers serving with units. I understand there are a lot of officers in extra-regimental employment. It is sometimes said that the number is too large but I cannot definitely say so. Moreover, officers are not satisfied with the new rates of pay, for though they show an increase so does the cost of living show an increase.

I would also suggest that there should be reconsideration of the system of taxing of allowances. I do hope that will be considered for owing to this taxation many officers are actually worse off under these new conditions. Under the old conditions, whether the allowance was adequate or whether it was inadequate, when an officer got it, it was there for the purpose for which it was given. I suggest also that more propaganda is required to advertise the advantages of the new Army in all ranks and to advertise the advantages of the Army itself, because I understand that these new terms are not fully understood or appreciated. I understand that what is commonly called a travelling circus is going round the country, I suppose for the purposes of propaganda. I notice that they are having a new walking out dress of blue. I am very glad they are having a new walking out dress. I wonder why the traditional colour of a great part of the British Army, the red coat, is to be entirely dropped. I do not say it should be of a very bright scarlet, because it might be too conspicuous, but there could be used what used to be known as Waterloo red, which is a darker red and it would not be so conspicuous. It would retain the traditional colour of the British Army. I was under the impression that the present Government was in favour of the colour red.

I would make one further suggestion, which I hope will not be merely laughed out of court. I would suggest the possibility of paying in full in cash the assessed value of the emoluments of the men. What I mean to say is the value not only of their pay but what is assessed as the value of their board, their lodgings and so forth, and then receiving back from them the assessed value of their lodgings, clothing, etc. I would earnestly suggest that this should be tried as an experiment. I believe it might be worth doing, because I do not think a great many of the men realise the value of the thing they get. There is the possibility that if they got the full assessed value of their emoluments in cash and they had to pay back again the assessed value of their board, lodgings and so forth they might realise the value more fully. That is a suggestion that might be worth trying as an experiment. There is no doubt that the terms do not attract men as much as they should do, and a great many men do not realise the value of what they get.

I should like to stress the importance of better conditions. I was glad to hear the Secretary of State talk of the better married quarters which are going to be built for married officers and men, and in that connection I have by Question and answer had a little correspondence with the Financial Secretary on this point before. I do stress once more the importance of sending wives and families out to the Army of the Rhine and as far as possible overseas. Many of them have been separated for seven years and it is really only fair that they should go out. By this time in the Army of the Rhine in 1919 a large number of wives and families had already arrived, and I do not hesitate to say it made a great difference to all concerned. I would ask to be told about the married quarters. These were very important before the war, but I think that possibly they will be more so in view of the increased numbers who will be permitted to marry. Under what conditions will married quarters be granted? Will they be granted free in addition to marriage allowance? Will they be granted as part of the marriage allowance or will the marriage allowance be given in full and a rent charged? What are going to be the conditions? I think that all soldiers will be very interested to know what these will be. I would remind the Financial Secretary now that soldiers are going to be allowed to marry at 21 that these soldiers or possibly a great many of them are going to want married quarters. Under what conditions will they get them?

Then I should like to ask one question which I asked during the last Debate and which was not fully answered. That is the question of reserves. No Army can mobilise or get ready for war without reserves. Surely, there ought to be something more laid down as to the reserve system than there is at present for men leaving the Colours after war and other service? I should like also to say a word regarding the Army units, formation, composition and location. I fear that too little information is given, not only to the public but to regiments, wives and families at home, to old comrades, and so forth. I would advert, if I may, to some Questions I put to the Secretary of State for War on Tuesday last, and which were not orally answered as they were towards the end of the Order Paper. The answers to those Questions were, I thought, curt and uninformative. First, I asked the Secretary of State for War:

7.55 p.m.

In a Debate of this kind it is important that Members on both sides of the Committee should concentrate on the important matters embodied in the Estimate, but I trust I shall be forgiven if I talk for a few minutes of the ordinary every-day things in a soldier's life which, I think, are very often as important to him as his long term conditions. My own view is that despite certain criticisms that can be made there is, on the part of the Government and Members on all sides of the Committee, a general belief that pay and allowances, and conditions, must be made attractive.

I propose to apply myself to other questions, concerning what a soldier gets other than cash, how he looks, and how he lives. These matters, it seems to me, are of some importance. Let me illustrate my point in relation to food. There have been many occasions at Question time in this House when it has been alleged that there were great differences in this or that unit between the food served to officers and that served to men. Upon investigation many of these complaints have been discovered to be false. Often, generally speaking, the food of the officers and the men was identical. But where the difference came about was the way in which the food had been cooked, the way in which it had been collected and the manner in which it had been served to the men. I have had personal experience of cases where it has been alleged that there have been these diffrences in food. Although there was no basic difference in the food itself, there was all the difference between the Dorchester and an East End dosshouse in the way in which the food was received by the men.

That applies to other things. It is the case, for instance, with uniforms. All of us would agree that the battle dress is an ideal working outfit for the soldier. Minor improvements could be made to it, no doubt, but over all the dress is good in itself. It is when we come to the walking out dress and off parade clothing, that complaints occur. I have heard Members extending congratulations to the War Office on the new walking out dress. I do not offer congratulations; I offer the strongest criticism of the proposed design. It seems to incorporate some of the worst features of the Boer War dress in its make up. It is said that before the outbreak of war a man was entitled to buy a walking out dress, and that he rather liked buying it. Well, there are two sides to that story. In some units I knew, deliberate pressure was brought to bear on men to persuade them to buy their walking out dress, and in other cases they were bought purely because they were permissible, and represented a change from the clothing which men wore during the day.

I believe that the view that prewar walking out dress was popular with the men is completely and absolutely fantastic. If they had been told that they could wear civilian clothes off parade I guarantee that more would have worn "civvies" than the prewar walking out dress. I hope the War Office are not yet committed to large scale production of this new walking out dress, because I and other Members want to offer this suggestion to the Minister. I believe that the walking out dress of the soldier should correspond as near as possible to the ordinary walking out dress of an officer. I believe that the only difference between an officer and man off parade should be the pips and, perhaps, a Sam Browne belt. Apart from that, there should be no difference whatever in the walking out dress.

There are some other somewhat intimate details which it is right and proper that somebody should talk about today. Pants and pyjamas are not without a certain importance when we are discussing a soldier's life. Hon. Members opposite have today continually suggested that, in some curious way, we on these benches were responsible by our attitude for the fact that recruiting to the Armed Forces or to the Territorial Army before the war was not on a large scale. The indictment could far better be levied against the type of mind that one finds more usually on those benches opposite than on this side; the type of mind that is constantly surprised when it finds out, as it did during the war, that the average English soldier, whether he was a volunteer Or a conscript, could speak English, could put his aitches in the right place, was accustomed to use a knife and fork, and that in most cases at home he actually slept in pyjamas. It was not until 1943 or 1944 that one had the slightest change in this attitude to the soldier as a human being. I would ask my hon. Friend who will reply, is it or is it not a fact that at the moment a soldier, a ranker, is still not regarded as being the sort of person who normally wears pyjamas for sleeping? Are pyjamas part of the normal Army issue? Is it intended that they should be issued?

I want to refer to another aspect of this question. A good many things have been said about the Americans, and it was suggested during the war that, generally, when they were walking out, the Americans did not look as smart as our men. I can give a very simple physical explanation for that. The Americans cut their trousers differently. American trousers hang, and are shaped to hang, at the hip whereas we have a higher waist line. I agree that with the two hip pockets of the American Army slacks, it was a somewhat extraordinary sight, and certainly not a dignified one, to walk behind an American soldier of plump proportions wearing slacks of this kind. However, I suggest that in other matters the Americans did very well indeed. Certainly they did much better by their rankers than we did by ours. If we take the shirts, the underclothing, and the socks issued to the American Forces, they were a model of what ought to have been issued to our own Forces. We suffered right from the beginning of the war, and long before, not because our stuff was of bad quality but because it was always of workhouse cut, whereas the Americans, issuing in some cases a poorer quality light shirt than our own, at least issued a shirt that was decently cut, with a collar attached, and pockets, a shirt that was smart and pleasant to wear. We were issuing what were, in fact, very good quality sacks with a very coarse neck-band and metal buttons. I suggest that these things are of some importance in a soldier's life.

In the early days of the war I and other colleagues in the journalistic profession who were in the Army wrote constantly about the need for extending to the British soldier a facility that was enjoyed by his Canadian comrades, his Dutch comrades, and later, by his American comrades. That was to wear a collar and tie on parade with an open battledress blouse. My own impression is that despite all the endeavours, and despite the fact that we were fighting a democratic war, it was not until 1944 that permission was finally granted and our rankers could wear the open battledress blouse and attach a collar to their shirts. I remember that when collars were issued it never occurred to anybody that our normal Army shirt had a metal button with no provision whatever for a collar stud and no provision for a back stud. Those matters were overlooked. I would ask my right hon. Friend, therefore, to attach importance to these small things of how the soldier looks and what he wears.

So far as underclothing is concerned, I hope that, except for winter purposes, for campaigning, and so on, my right hon. Friend will abolish to a large extent the issue of those bell tents known as long pants. It is a provable fact—[ Laughter ]—this is a perfectly serious subject—that if you talked to the men we had in the Army in 1940, there was not one in six who ever wore the long pants issued to him. People had various ideas of what to do with them. In my unit the popular idea was to stitch one pair up in a neat roll 12 inches long and put it away in one's bag so as to produce it every time there was a kit inspection, and to present the other pair to a relative. There was one disadvantage in that. I presented my long pants to a relative, and relations of his were very much concerned that he might one day be knocked down in a motor accident, be picked up, and that there would be discovered the great broad black arrow denoting Government property on a certain part of his person which would obviously give rise to the gravest suspicions amongst those who picked him up.

In conclusion, let me say this: There has to be an entirely new conception of the clothes that a soldier wears and the way he wears them. We want collar attached, and other types of shirts that have been properly cut, in the widest range of sizes and sleeve lengths. We want, as part of a man's normal kit issue, brown or black shoes of decent quality, of decent type, that are easily polished. We want a beret with more cloth or normal off-parade head-gear that more closely corresponds to what an officer wears. I hope we have definitely seen the last of the forage cap. I do not know who perpetrated that monstrosity, but if ever there was a gross waste of time, money and material immediately before and during the war, it was in the production of that type of hopeless head-gear. These little things are all-important. There are hon. Members opposite and maybe in other parts of the Committee, who still have this workhouse idea towards the soldier. They will feed him up, they will pay him well, they will provide him with things of good quality as far as they can, but any suggestion that he wants to live like a decent human being, any suggestion that he likes to eat his meals off a table with a table cloth, any idea that he likes to wear thin, decently cut shirts—all these are opposed as though they affected the efficiency of the soldier. That is far from being the truth. I hope that in these little matters which mean so much, we shall have the sympathy and, much more important than sympathy, the constant activity of my right hon. Friend and his Department.

8.10 p.m.

I hope the hon. Member for Bilston (Mr. Nally) will forgive me if I do not follow him at great length. I do not pretend to be such an expert on dress as he obviously is, but I agree that there has been a lot of feeling on this matter so far as peacetime conditions are concerned and especially now when clothing coupons are rather rare, as regards the arrangements in the Army. He also mentioned the new walking-out dress, about which I must disagree with him. I should like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War and his advisers on having produced the new walking-out dress for the Regular Army. I believe it will be an inducement, in a small way, to those entering the Armed Forces, and I hope he will also bear it in mind in considering the Territorial Army; there also it might be an added inducement to all ranks.

I speak as one who was a Territorial before and during the war, in a comparatively junior capacity, and as one who, like thousands of others, has been demobilised and disembodied—to use the War Office words—and whose regiment is in a state of "suspended animation." I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman opposite realises that that when regiments are in suspended animation they have no one at all except an honorary colonel. They have no regimental headquarters, no headquarters at all except a Territorial Association office in the county of their origin. It is very difficult, after five or six years of active service, for an honorary colonel with no staff and no power to deal with the many difficulties that arise about things such as casualties without some form of regimental headquarters at hand. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us that, at a very early date, some form of headquarters will be started for the county regiments.

The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State mentioned in his opening remarks the possibility of the trade unions taking a part in the Territorial Army Associations. I am sure that all who are interested in the Territorial Army will be glad to hear that they are going to help. It can only be for the good of the Territorials. I also hope that the trade unions and their leaders will help ex-Service men to get into the various trades. The Army of the future will very largely be a regular Army. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Petersfield (Sir G. Jeffreys) has spoken very fully of the future of the regular Army and I, as a Territorial, do not intend to enter into details on that subject this afternoon beyond saying that I wish it all success in its recruiting campaign and the best conditions the country can possibly give it. Such conditions are what it must have, both as regards pay, accommodation, welfare, and everything else. We shall, then, have a Regular Army in being as we have at the present time. Besides that we shall, according to the War Office announcement, have the militia or conscript force for a period of two years to come. Are we to hear Shortly, what is to be the future of the Territorials? Many Territorials are anxiously waiting to hear a call to them once again, and I put it to the Secretary of State that the longer he puts off an announcement the more difficult it will be to restart that Army which has done such magnificent service not only in the last war but in the war before that.

I hope, as my hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) has said, that the Cadet Force will play an adequate part in the Territorial Army. I welcome the statement of the Secretary of State that he gives it his blessing. There are many men who gave magnificent service in the Cadet Force, and who are still doing so, as officers, training youngsters, and they very seldom get recognition. If they are not eligible for one of the Territorial medals, perhaps because they have not served overseas, I hope that something will be done for them as added thanks for what they have done over many years in teaching the youngsters. Now as to the Territorials themselves. After the period of conscription which the Secretary of State has announced there will be a need for some form of permanent reserve both to the Regular Army and to those who are serving their set period of service. Many of the latter will wish to join the Territorial Army and, while incorporating those newly trained men in the Territorials I hope that the Secretary of State will see to it that the voluntary spirit of the Territorial Army is not lost. That is most important, because it was the proudest boast of the Territorial that he was doing what he did voluntarily for his country and not because he was ordered to do it. I trust that that spirit will be encouraged to the utmost.

During the war years it often seemed to the ordinary Territorial, and indeed to all who served in the Army, that the actual individual man and his regiment took second place to a mere number. I hope the right hon. Gentleman, not only in starting up the Territorial Army but in the Regular Army as well, will incorporate the regimental and county traditions as far as possible. It has been proved, during the war years and in peacetime, that those regiments which have behind them a tradition based on a locality pull their weight and do their best when the time of testing comes. It may also be possible, in case of future emergency and mobilisation, to have some form of prior training for senior N.C.Os. and officers who may perhaps be supernumerary to an actual regimental establishment so that the higher formations which are essential as soon as war breaks out can be staffed and trained. At the outbreak of this war many of the fully trained Regular soldiers had to go off, and instead of being in a position to train men coming into the Army they had to go away and do administrative jobs. I hope that the system of staff training will be extended. It may well be that many civilians who are prepared to do time in the Territorials will be able, when the time comes, to give great assistance in many of the administrative branches of the Army. I would urge again that the regimental spirit is perhaps the most important thing to the Territorials of today and tomorrow.

May I now change the subject to one or two other points I wanted to put to the right hon. Gentleman? I represent a constituency in which a great part of the British Army—and the American Army—was trained in the war years. It includes certain areas of Salisbury Plain, where more soldiers have been trained than in any other area in the country. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see to it that full use is made of War Office property on Salisbury Plain and that other fanning land around the Plain is not interfered with if it can be avoided, especially at a time like this when bread rationing has just been announced. A point which is troubling many of the officers in age groups 30 and 31 is the delay which is occurring in their release. I have no doubt that many hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have received representations from officers whose release has been delayed. It is causing a considerable amount of friction and cannot be doing the Service any good. I would like to quote this cable received by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke), who had been going to read it to the Committee but has had to leave. It runs as follows:

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman referring to delays in transfer, or delays in getting released?

The whole blocks or groups have been delayed. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to look at these cases.

May I in conclusion quote this, which I think is pertinent to a Debate of this kind? It is from that well-known journal which does not always favour this side of the Committee, the "Daily Mirror," of 18th May, 1946:

8.22 p.m.

The Minister made a remark that he was anxious to be guided by tradition. I was never so sorry as when I heard him make that remark. The one thing he has to do, and which the whole of experience should teach him, is that he must break entirely with tradition. We have had too much tradition. Another hon. Member said that he agreed with the noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winter-ton) that we should keep politics out of the Army. That is utterly impossible. It is an utter absurdity to suggest keeping politics out of the Army. What is wanted is to get the correct politics into the Army. The tradition of the Army and the politics of the Army are the Tory traditions and Tory politics. The Army has been completely separated and divorced from the people of the country under the rigid control of younger sons who made a profession of the Army. Yes, it was a professional Army. Professional for whom? The rank and file? No. The rank and file were driven into the Army by unemployment and hunger; the profession was for the younger sons.

I remember the talk that there used to be about a lad named Macdonald and another named Robertson, two men who out of the thousands worked their way through to the higher officers' grades.

When I said that I shall be guided by tradition I was speaking about the Territorials, and I make no apology for that because one of the finest fighting units in the country, the 50th Division, came from them.

When we read the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow it will be seen that what the Minister said was at the concluding part of his speech and covered all he had said before. I am interested in all the different points that have been raised, but the important question is the character of the Army. An hon. and gallant Member used to sit on the second Back Bench opposite in the last Parliament—Brigadier-General Knox. At the time of the Russian Revolution he was military attache in Leningrad, and if we read the memoirs of Lloyd George we see a report he sent from Leningrad to Lloyd George in which he says that he has been down to this and that front and has seen the commissars who are supposed to maintain discipline, and adds, "They can never take the place of the good subaltern who knew how to use the boot and the fist." New hon. Members of this House can have no idea of the fight we had in the last House over the simplest elementary things for soldiers. I was speaking at a meeting one Sunday in Neath and there were two military policemen and two ordinary policemen stopping every soldier and sailor from entering. At another meeting at Montague Place there were a number of Red Caps and every soldier who came along was told, "Move on, soldier." This is what we had to fight to get the right for many of you lads who have come into this House to attend public meetings. We had a tremendously hard fight day after day to secure such elementary rights.

Politics in the Army—of course, Tory politics, that is what they want in the Army. Now we have to see to it that the class dominating another class is finished with and that the people come into the Army and determine the politics of the Army. Once before when we were discussing this question and hon. Members were all talking about democratising the Army I asked if they were contemplating a private coming along and meeting an old friend, a general or a colonel, and saying to him, "Hello, Charlie, come along and have a glass of beer." They were shocked at such a suggestion. They had no conception of democracy. If they were serious about democracy in the Army they would be capable of contemplating one pal meeting another, no matter what their positions were, and having refreshment together. But the Tories always have this idea that somehow or other they can keep the officer class in their own group and dominate the rank and file. They may bring in one or two from the ranks into the officers' mess; that is their idea of democracy. But when lads from our class go to the officers' mess, they are supposed to break all connections with their own friends and even with their families. I want the Minister to realise that after all the terrible experiences the people of this country have been through, we want a different kind of Army. The old conception of the professional Army was of an Army divorced from the people and which could be used against the people either in this country or in the Colonies. Some terrible stories could be told of how men have been treated in Colonial countries. If we read the reports of Densi-Awai in Egypt, where terrible punishment was imposed on the people of that village, about 40 years ago, we see the attitude which was adopted towards people of other countries. We have to turn away from that sort of thing. We must build the United Nations in place of military domination. We must have a foreign policy of cooperation with the progressive governments throughout the world which will relieve us of other responsibilities.

We have to see to it that Colonial countries get really advanced and democratic institutions which will relieve us of a lot of other military commitments. We desire to build up a United Nations organisation with a real Labour foreign policy and the carrying forward of the Colonial peoples. What kind of Army do we then require? An Army essentially for the defence of the people of the country, not for any imperialistic purpose or for policing people of this country or any other countries. We want an Army drawn from the people and essentially part of the people, not dissociated from the people. This idea of building barracks and shoving men into them out of the life of the ordinary people is finished with. We have to get an Army which remains a part of the people. They may be tradesmen and we try to fit them into trades, they may have come from universities and we try to fit them in such a way that there is no chance of their going back in their education, but all the time we are helping them forward.

One essential for ensuring this is that they come into contact with the people, Why should not regiments come to factories and meet the factory workers? And why should factory workers not take a day's outing to meet the regiment and join together in social life, songs, competitions and all that sort of thing? The Army and the people should be one and the same, in thought and desire. The Minister should set himself to accomplish that and he will carry out one of the greatest tasks that any Minister has accomplished. It must be an entirely different Army, no longer the Army of the Tory aristocrat, no longer the Army of the big monopoly capitalists, but an Army of the people and an Army which belongs to the people. That is what we have to work for and if the Minister and those associated with him will set their minds to that great task they will do real service not only to those who are brought into the Service, but to democracy in this country and throughout the world.

8.35 p.m.

I hope that the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) will forgive me, if I do not follow him. I know he is keen to have a political Army. I myself think it is very much better if we have a non-political Army in this country. I would like to say a word or two and I will try to be as brief as possible, about one branch of the Army about which I know something and that is—the Territorial Army. I welcome the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State, that the Territorial Army is to be continued in the future in this country. I am certain that that is a decision which he will not regret, and which the country will not regret in the future. The Territorial Army has always been popular in this country. The "Terriers" as they were known, have always had a warm place in the hearts of the people of this country. We in this country have possibly been rather hostile to and suspicious of a large professional Army, but the raising and existence of what might be called local levies has been a tradition in our history, and it has not always been a peaceful history. I am certain that the Territorial Army, owing to the local, and possibly amateur nature of the bodies concerned, have always been a matter of pride to the various counties in this country, and also a source of strength to the nation as a whole in time of war.

I come at once to one of the few criticisms which have been made during this Debate, and also outside, of the Territorial Army as it existed at the beginning of this war. All of us who were in the Territorial Army realised that it was by no means perfect. The chief criticism levelled against it is that at the outbreak of the war it was not sufficiently trained and fit to go into battle straight away. It has also been criticised on the ground that possibly many of the N.C.Os. were not sufficiently trained, and were often not up to the job. It has also been a criticism, in this Debate and outside, that officers were chosen for financial or social qualifications rather than for military abilities or military qualifications. I admit that much of this criticism is fair. It is my purpose to try to examine the reasons for this weakness, so that these mistakes of the past may be remedied in the future scheme which the right hon. Gentleman is bringing out. I hope that the scheme, while doing away with faults of the past, will also keep a great deal which was good in the Territorials. The entire blame could not be placed on the Territorial Army for not being sufficiently trained at the commencement of the war.

Part of the Territorial Army with which I was associated was the cavalry. I think there were 15 cavalry regiments at the beginning of the war, and within two months of the commencement of the war eight of them were converted to the purposes of some other arm. The remainder were converted a little later. There were many yeomanry regiments converted about two years before the commencement of the war into mechanised formations, but it was only on paper and it was some time after the beginning of the war that they saw their first tank or mechanised vehicle. We cannot blame any of them for the fact that they were not ready for battle when war broke out. We should remember that many infantry battalions and R.A. regiments had to go out at the beginning of this war, and fought manfully and played a noble part in the fighting during the retreat to Dunkirk. I think credit should be given to the converted regiments for the speed with which they made themselves proficient in their new arm.

I now come to what was, in my opinion, one of the real weaknesses of the Territorial Army and its training. That is what the Army calls the "Admin." side—administration. That is where most Territorial regiments broke down at the commencement of the war. In peace time, one had only a fortnight's camp during the year. There was no question of day-to-day administration being carried on and it was not really necessary for anyone to know very much about it. Such administration as existed was done by the Regular adjutant attached to the regiment, or by a permanent staff instructor. On mobilisation, the first thing that happened was that the Regular adjutant and the P.S.I. were recalled to their own regiments, and the whole weight of the day-to-day administration was thrown on the shoulders of Territorial officers. I do not mind admitting that, when I found myself isolated with a certain number of men under my command, I had not the least idea even what Part II Orders meant. It is true that, in one period of my life, I had done a course in business accountancy, but the system of accountancy operated by the Army bears no relation to that practised by any business firm in this country, and I imagine that the War Office is still struggling today with many of the "imprest accounts" that went astray in the early days of this war. I seriously ask my right hon. Friend in the future to see to it that Territorial officers and N.C.O.s have a chance to be trained in administration. It is not fair that the War Office should throw this great weight on their shoulders when war commences.

I was pleased to hear the announcement of the right hon. Gentleman that the trade unions are to be encouraged in future to take an active part in the Territorial Associations of this country, I hope that in any scheme for the future these points will be kept in mind. One of the big difficulties so far is that it is asking a lot of employers to give their men time off with pay so as to attend the annual camp, as well as giving them their own annual holiday. I am sure that is a question which could be threshed out with representatives of the employers and the employees. As regards training in the future, I think that, with the mechanisation of the Army, training will become easier rather than harder. With the old cavalry or yeomanry regiments, it was very difficult to train if one had not a horse. When we come to the mechanised regiments, the R.A. or the armoured battalions, all the different jobs which have to be done represent, mainly, a form of training which could be done indoors. If we take the case of an R.A. unit, the surveyors, fitters and gunlayers can be taught indoors, and, in the case of a tank regiment, the actual driving of a tank presents no difficulty to anyone who can drive a car, and during the indoor training, one night a week or once a fortnight, we could train the gunners, signallers and specialists.

I want to say a word about the other criticism which was levelled against the Territorial Army. It was that many of the N.C.Os. were really not fit for the job when the war broke out. In order that the reason for that may be understood, I should like to give the history of my own regiment. From the 1914–18 war up to 1939, we were always on a peacetime establishment, which is about half the wartime establishment. In 1938, we were told to go on to a war establishment, which meant that the strength of the regiment was doubled overnight and every man automatically became an N.C.O. Two months after we were mobilised; the regiment was split in two, and again the numbers were increased and everyone, automatically, overnight, was made an N.C.O. One could not possibly expect men who had had no training to take jobs as senior N.C.Os., and it was a weakness which was in the Territorial regiments throughout the whole of the war. I do not want to be controversial now, but, in the Army, there was no difficulty in breaking inefficient officers. One could get rid of them overnight. It was however almost impossible to break an N.C.O. or get rid of him if he was not up to the job. I am not blaming anyone; I am only saying that the unduly rapid promotion was a weakness with which we had to contend throughout the war.

I feel that the right, hon. Gentleman should make up his mind on what the future role of the Territorial Army is to be. Is it expected to be battle-worthy when war breaks out? If so, it must be kept on a full war establishment in peacetime. If it is only to provide sections from which the general expansion of the Army can take place, it should be kept more as a cadre for training N.C.Os. and so allowing that expansion to take place. May I say a word about officers, who came in for a certain amount of criticism during the course of this Debate? The fact that there were many officers, from colonels downwards, at the beginning of the war who Were, possibly, unfit for the job was largely due to the conditions of service. I do not think there was a single officer in the Territorial Army who was not out of pocket, for being in the Territorial Army. For one thing, living expenses were unnecessarily high, and all of us had to provide facilities for training our men as well as for their comfort, for which the War Office should have provided, but did not provide.

It is not unnatural that men who would have joined, were discouraged from joining because of these things. These conditions are not hard to remedy. As I understand it, under any system of national service—and I would mention this to some hon. Gentleman opposite who oppose any policy of conscription—it is only through a policy of conscription to get the true democratisation of the Army, certainly with reference to the officers. We must have the men coming forward so that we can pick out the few who shall go to the O.C.T.U for training.

If the men are not coming forward in sufficient numbers we can only get them by other and less democratic methods. As I see the picture now, there will be men coming forward under a system of national service. In due course, they will be picked out, and those who are suitable for further training as officers can be given the option of taking a commission in the Regular Army or Territorial Army.

I also think that one of the healthiest reforms which has been brought about in the Army is the introduction of battle dress. I hope that has come to stay. It cuts down expense enormously if everyone, both officers and men, has an issue battle dress and, possibly, one walking out dress. It will make a great deal of difference in the future. I have attempted to answer some of the criticisms which have been levelled against the Territorial Army, and to give some of the reasons for the failures in the past and also to make a few suggestions as to how I think they can be avoided in the future. I was very pleased to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that we shall keep the Territorial Army on a voluntary basis, because if we were not, I would far rather see the Territorial Army done away with altogether. Possibly, I have not been altogether complimentary in my speech either to the officers or N.C.Os. in the Territorial Army. Although, possibly, it is not for me to say so, being one myself, I think those who joined the Territorial Army before the war were the salt of the earth, for want of a better expression. It is not given to every man to have the ability to command his fellow men, but there are other qualities which are just as important, if not more important, when it comes to war or fighting. There are qualities of courage, loyalty, trustworthiness and a capacity for hard work, and nil those men who joined the Territorial Army had those qualities in full measure. I wish the right hon. Gentleman every success in producing a good scheme for the Territorial Army of the future.

8.53 p.m.

It gives me great pleasure to follow the noble Lord the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Lord Willoughby de Eresby) because his speech has been the frankest analysis of the weaknesses of the prewar Territorial Army that we have had from the opposite side of the Committee during the whole of the Debate. We on this side welcome the decision to reconstitute the Territorial Army, but with the proviso that it must be something rather different from the Territorial Army of the prewar years, without the weaknesses to which the noble Lord has just referred. I think if they are frank, hon. Members will admit that the trouble with the Territorial Army before the war was that it was neither democratic nor efficient, and we want to go forward to a Territorial Army which, within the necessary limitations, will be as efficient a military unit as can be contrived, and will be a democratic institution. I would not agree with an earlier speaker—it may have been the noble Lord himself—who said that with increasing technical complexity it was going to be easier to do the training that is required in the Territorial Army. I would agree rather with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Dudley (Colonel Wigg) who pointed out that there are limits beyond which the territorial principle cannot be stretched in the interests of military efficiency. When it comes to a conflict between territorial loyalties and military efficiency, in posting to units, transport abroad, and so on, it is obvious that the technical efficiency has to win the day.

Let me now say a few words on the question of democracy in the Territorial Army. Various Members have attempted to analyse the reason why the trade union movement and representatives of the working class were not active in the Territorial Army before the war. As has already been said, it was provided in the model rules of the County Associations that they might co-opt representatives of employers and the trade union movement, but, in fact, that principle remained almost entirely a dead letter because the military members and the civilian members who formed the personnel of those County Associations were in no sense willing to have trade union representatives mixed up with them. There was far too much snobbishness and exclusiveness about the County Associations in the past. We must now establish a system in which it is not left as optional for the Lord Lieutenant of the County to co-opt, if he will, a few members of the working class, keeping them well in the minority, but in which the Labour movement is represented on an equal footing.

Again, on this question of democracy in the Territorial Army, there was no chance for working class members who came into the Territorial Army as recruits to the ranks to rise to commissioned rank. I have looked up the regulations of the Territorial Army, and I find that the right of nomination to a first commission in the Territorial Army was vested in the President of the County Association—in other words, the Lord Lieutenant of the county—providing he exercised that right within 30 days, and beyond that the commanding officer had the right of nomination. We all know what that meant in practice. It meant that the commissioned ranks were filled in the first place with the younger sons of county families, and if there were not enough of the county families a few of the more pushing business men were brought in to make up the number, but there was certainly no question of democratic promotion.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Lord Provost of the City of Glasgow for the last 10 years has been a Socialist?

Glasgow seems to be more fortunate in its Lord Lieutenancy than the great majority of the areas in the country. During this war we have made great strides in the democratisation of the Regular Army and of the wartime Army. If we are going to bring back the Territorial Army we have to see that this democratic process is equally embodied in the Territorial Army in the recruitment of its officers and in the formation of its County Associations.

I would like to refer to one or two special points concerning conditions of regular service. The first is an interim matter which is causing a good deal of heart burning to a number of regular soldiers. I refer to the fact that the right of purchase of discharge, which existed in the Regular Army up to 1939, has been abolished for the duration of the war and has not yet been restored. That means that we now have serving in the Army a number of Regular soldiers who joined the Army years ago as very young men, who have been right through the war and who are now anxious to get out into adult civilian life, but there is no means by which they can do so. Let me quote a letter which I have received from one of my constituents. He says: men were driven into the Army by economic circumstances over which they had no control:

I should like to follow the point which was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bilston (Mr. Nally). We believe that in the postwar Army the soldier must have equal status with the citizen, not only in pay and conditions of living but in the rights of citizenship and the right to govern his own life when he is not on parade or on military duty. That means that, although he may like a nice blue uniform for walking out, he also likes the right to get into civilian clothes and behave as a civilian when he is off duty; and he should have all the rights of civilians and be able to do so. At the present time, soldiers are allowed to get into mufti when they are off duty, but the clothing restrictions are such that it is quite impossible for the soldier to benefit by this privilege, and that is causing a good deal of bad feeling. I quote a letter from a Regular officer: the War Office will take that up. To conclude, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State was referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool (Brigadier Low) who opened the Debate on the other side as "cunctator." I have followed, with some considerable interest, the career of the distinguished gentleman, Fabius Cunctator, and I believe that, although he took some time to make his decisions, in the end he won his battle.

9.4 p.m.

It had been my intention to cover much of the ground in detail which was covered by the hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool (Brigadier Low), who so ably initiated this Debate. As I have only a few minutes at my disposal I shall content myself by mentioning one or two points to which I particularly wish to call attention. The first is on the general question of recruitment. We have the two alternatives of voluntary enlistment or conscription. I cannot, in my own mind, reconcile conscription with the defence of individual freedom, and I hope we shall never see it as a permanent feature in our social system. I believe that conscription should only be used in an emergency where the total forces required cannot be provided by volunteers. It is important that we should recognise that. The adoption of conscription by the War Office, if they feel they can get away with conscription, is the line of least resistance. It is much easier from the War Office point of view to have conscription than it is continuously to review the factors that are affecting recruitment in order to see that they are in fact getting the maximum number of volunteers. I hope that the Secretary of State for War will not be wedded to conscription as a permanent feature of our life, and that he will take every opportunity of ensuring that, if possible, we reach our target by voluntary methods. If we are to do that, the Army must be made as attractive as any other aspect of our social or industrial life. The War Office has to realise now that it has to compete with industry to get men into the Army. That is why I think that we ought to establish a proper and adequate system for the continuous review of all the factors which affect recruitment because these factors alter from month to month.

I do not believe that the new pay code is nearly good enough to attract the volunteers which we require. I have heard many complaints about it. I believe that is a matter which should be under continuous review because the wages in industry are rising—they have risen since the new pay code was introduced—and consequently one can expect a decrease in the number of people wishing to volunteer. There are other factors affecting recruitment. I was glad indeed to have an assurance from the Secretary of State that he was going to do everything he could to improve the conditions of service, particularly those at foreign stations. That is a very important need because we have to realise that our main commitments in the future will be overseas, and the amount of time a soldier will spend in this country will be very small. Therefore, the Secretary of State should look to the foreign stations straight away to see if they cannot be improved and provided with the facilities required to give married men, and single men for that matter, decent accommodation and living conditions.

Again may I ask that the cost of living in each foreign station should be reviewed continuously in relation to the allowances which are given, so that no man shall be penalised for serving in a particular part of the world? I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State should have laid such emphasis on vocation and educational training in the Army. I would say that vocational training itself is not enough. Let us have that, and let it be the best, but let us remember that we have a responsibility to these men when they leave the Army, whether they leave it after seven years, at the age of 25, or whether they leave it as militia men after two years. There are two factors which must have attention paid to them: We shall train men and give them vocational training in certain trades and when they come out of the Army they will discover that they cannot take up those trades without a licence from the Board of Trade. That wants looking at straight away because it is happening now.

Men have been induced during the war to go in for boot repairing and told that this will give them a good job in civilian life. When they come out of the Army they find that they cannot get a licence because they are not disabled. If that goes on, it is going to be a factor which will affect recruitment. Again, when men come out of the Army they are, in certain industries, faced with a closed shop and a closed union policy. What is the use of training a man as an electrician in the last months of his life in the army, if he is going to be met with a closed shop and a closed union in the electrical industry here? These are all factors which are likely to affect recruitment. I hope the Secretary of State for War will take these matters up with the trade unions movement concerned. I have not very much further time at my disposal but I would implore the Secretary of State to take a long term view of this problem and continuously to review all the factors likely to affect recruiting.

9.10 p.m.

I have listened to every speech except two, and to almost every word of every speech, and there is hardly one on which I should not wish to comment. I do not presume to offer commendation of this Debate, but it is to me an interesting fact that in this particular Debate I agree with a very high proportion of what was said by almost everybody. I agree most of all, rather surprisingly, with the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), who has just gone out and who had two very interesting suggestions to make—one that the Army should be composed of people, which I think is a very good idea, and the other that in future wars, Tories should be left out. With that one exception, I propose not to indulge in the cut and thrust of debate on this occasion, as time is very short, but to try if I may to put into circulation two suggestions which I think have not been much emphasised in the earlier part of this Debate.

The first is this. Almost everybody said that it would be a good thing to get the Army and Army policy out of politics. Of course, it would be a good thing. Everything that can be got above politics does far better. Politics are the method of deciding how force shall be used in those spheres where people cannot agree. I would ask those hon. Gentlemen who put forward that praiseworthy sentiment without always elaborating it logically, to consider this, that the first step to getting Army policy above politics is that everybody on both sides should be quite clear in his mind that he wishes His Majesty's Government to be as strong as possible from the strategic point of view in relation to all other Governments, whatever may happen to be the complexion and policy of the Government at the moment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am very glad to get the cheers from the other side, because that, after all, has not always been the view taken by all parties in this country, and those who desire to promote the policy of keeping the Army above politics owe it to their conscience and to the country, to reflect whether they ought not to take that view in future.

The second point about which I should like to speak has, with the Territorial Army, been the leit motif running through this Debate. It is the relationship between education and the Army. There are a great many things I could say about that, but I do not want to be more than three or four minutes. I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite not to accuse me of snobbery before I have finished not only the next sentence but the one after it. Incidentally, speaking about snobbery, I agree with some hon. Members that if it is not the worst it is the most disgusting of vices; it is worst when upside down. I would ask them to consider this, that in a sense all that matters in an Army is the officers. I would ask them to listen to the next sentence before they jeer too much. It was my experience, and the people with whom I have talked both from ships and regiments have agreed with my slight experience that they never saw a bad regiment with good officers. It does not happen. If in a battalion there are a few good officers, say, half a dozen, it will be a very good battalion wherever it may come from. Therefore in a sense when one talks about the Army what matters most of all, apart from the technical developments, which are not our immediate business—things like the super atom bomb and all that—is the education of the officers. There is a great deal which I should like to say on that but I shall say only one thing. Hon. Members, particularly those like the Financial Secretary to the War Office and the Secretary of State, must not be frightened of any charge of privilege if they have to treat rather differently, those who, from the educational point of view, it is not unreasonable to think likely to become good officers.

It is not a question of privilege at all. The only thing that really matters to the private soldier is that he should have good officers whom he trusts, and above all, officers who will think most about the care of their men, will care more about them than about their own careers or even, sometimes, the strategic objective. What matters is that the regimental officer should be respected and should be known to think of his men, that he should be intellectually respectable and care more about looking after his men, than about anything else.

I was shocked and horrified to hear the Secretary of State tell us that the time had not yet come for a decision about conscription. I will not go into the question of whether conscription is good or bad, but I will say that you will be landed with the worst set of junior officers you have ever had in your history, in a few years' time, unless you make that decision pretty quickly. Young men of 18 to 22 are finding it difficult to decide what they are going to do next, especially when they are going into professional training, taking university degrees, or are to be apprentices in highly skilled trades. The difficulty for those boys in deciding whether they shall or shall not put in for a temporary commission or a reserve commission, is so great that you are tending to get a highly disgenic effect. You are tending to lose some of the boys. You will get the very best boys, of course, as you will always get them under any system, but you will tend to lose some. I could elaborate this at great length, but I have no time to make it clear how the thing should be done.

But the particular thing is this: Right hon. Gentlemen opposite ought to come to their decision as soon as they can. The First Lord of the Admiralty and the Secretary of State for Air ought not to be out of the country at this time. Governments in old days used to plan only two things—currency and defence. Nowadays, the Government seems to think of planning everything else. In matters which were particularly the Government's business in all previous human experience there is no attempt to plan at all. In making your decision, and putting it into effect, for heaven's sake, and, above all, for the private soldier's sake, do arrange your conscripton or non-conscription service so that you may get the best and most intelligent young men on to your reserve of officers, I have never had an inordinate admiration for university or secondary education. Familiarity may breed contempt. I am far from contemptuous of it, but I have lived with that machine for many years. I do not think it is proof of immense, abnormal intelligence that he has a high degree. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is considerable evidence, all the same, and if anybody wants clear proof of want of intelligence it is that kind of cheer without reflection. It must statistically be true—and if it is not the whole of our educational machine is futile unless it is true—that on the whole, and in the main, the sort of boys who do best and go furthest educationally are likely to be the sort of boys you want in your junior officers' reserve. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not always."] I said, "On the whole, and in the main," and if any man can speak with more reservation than that and still say anything, he is more ingenious than I. I ask the Government to arrange any conscription so that persons may be able to opt to take it before or after their university or apprenticeship or in two pieces. If you like to get your own back by saying, "You must stay longer on the Reserve," I do not mind.

9.20 p.m.

I beg to move, "That Item Subhead (A) be reduced by £100 in respect of the salary of the Secretary of State for War."

My hon. Friend the Senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickhorn) has put his finger on the matter over which we really quarrel with the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, and that is the indecision on great matters which was still apparent after we heard what he had to say today. However, I will return to that a little later. I think that no Secretary of State, at least since the not very long time that I have been in the House, has ever had a better political atmosphere in which to carry on his work than the present holder of that office because, through the whole of the Debate today it has been quite obvious that upon all sides of the Committee the only desire is to do the best we can to see that we have the best Army we can get. Whilst I do not want to go into the past now, that has not always been the case.

That brings me back to saying that that is all the more reason why the right hon. Gentleman should be able to give us decisions for which we ask more rapidly than we are getting them at the moment. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Blackpool (Brigadier Low) put a number of questions in his very well phrased and very cogent speech, but we have not had answers to them. I shall take up one point only as I have arranged with my hon. Friend to sit down fairly early. The right hon. Gentleman told us that he has a target for the Regular Army. We are not asking him what it is. From what he said, it seems to me that his attitude to that target is wrong because, in the course of his speech, he was interrupted on the question of conscription, and he said, "The Government cannot at present make up its mind about this long-term view of conscription," and one of the reasons he gave was that we must see how the recruiting campaign goes.

It seems to me that what the right hon. Gentleman ought to do is this: Having arrived at his target and agreed it, presumably on the advice of his experts, he should go for that target and, if he cannot get it, he should look at the conditions he is offering and see if that is not the reason. Until we get some finality in something we shall run round in endless circles. One moment it will be the international situation, another the result of the recruiting campaign, and we shall get no finality in what the shape of the future Army is to be. I beg him to consider at least fixing one thing, which apparently he is in a position to do now, and then let the variable quantities be rather the international situation or the greater or shorter length of conscription, rather than the strength of the Regular Army. Let us have that fixed, and then hang the variable quantities around that.

When I am talking about the Regular Army and the conditions, there are two which I would like to mention now. This again bears on what I was saying about indecision. A large number of young men at present are saying, "If I join the Regular Army, there is only before me an endless vista of foreign service, either occupying Germany or somewhere else," and that is militating in many cases against young men joining the Regular Army. Naturally they want to have their service abroad, for part of the appeal is to see the world, but at present many are saying that there is only an endless vista of occupying Germany, which is called home service but which is not really home service. I think my hon. Friend should say something about that and incidentally, answer one of the questions which was posed by my hon. and gallant Friend, and that is, what are men being recruited for at the present moment? Is it for the policing of occupied territories or for training for possible future hostilities? We have had no announcement about that.

The other point is a comparatively small one, but nevertheless important, and I raise it because I happen to have had a number of letters on the subject. Probably other hon. Members have had the same. Some of them come to me from regular soldiers, and some from relatives of those who were in the other ranks of the Army. At the present moment no soldier below the rank of commissioned officer gets any clothing coupons at all. That, it seems to me, is definitely a hardship. A fellow cannot even buy a handkerchief. A regular soldier writes to me in the following vein: "After five years of war I have grown; I can still get into a suit, but I cannot get into any shoes, and I have to wear my Army boots when I am allowed to walk out in civilian clothes, and no coupons are available to buy anything at all." It is a small point, perhaps, but when a recruiting campaign is being started in an effort to get the maximum numbers possible this is the sort of point which needs consideration. Although it is a small one, I feel that it should have the right hon. Gentleman's attention.

I will now turn for a moment or two to a question about the Territorial Army. We all welcome the announcement which the right hon. Gentleman made today, and other speakers with greater knowledge than I have have spoken on various aspects of the Territorial Army I should like the Parliamentary Secretary in his reply to say whether the Territorial Associations will still enjoy the privilege of direct access to the War Office. I understand that this was a privilege which was enjoyed and valued by them, and which did not vitiate in any way their relationship with the commands. I should be glad if the hon. Gentleman could give an answer to that question in the course of his remarks.

I am sorry to jump from one thing to another in this way, but I want to give the hon. Gentleman his full time, and there is another matter I would like to turn to for a moment. Today the Prime Minister was asked for the numbers of deserters from the three Services. For the Navy the number was given as 3,000, for the Army 19,000, and for the Royal Air Force 250. I do not know whether it is possible that the figures have been calculated by the three Services on a different basis, because after all the Question says, "what are the numbers of deserters from the three Services?" That may mean what are the present deserters, or what they have been during the whole war. I hope, however, that the right hon. Gentleman will look at this enormous discrepancy between the Service for which he is responsible and the Royal Air Force, because it is very disquieting if there is such a disproportion as that on a comparable basis.

For one of the minutes which remain to me I turn to another question where indecision comes in again. For some time past, and particularly six weeks ago, we have been told that the right hon. Gentleman was very shortly to come to a decision about the amount of land he wanted to retain for Army training purposes. We have had no further information about that, and so long as there is indecision about it it means that we are losing food production, and I very much hope that the hon. Gentleman who is to reply will be able to tell us something about it. How soon is there to be a definite decision as to how much land the War Office have to retain for training purposes? That again hangs on the indecision which runs through the whole administration at the moment on almost every subject under the sun.

In conclusion, we on this side of the Committee, and myself in particular, like the right hon. Gentleman from a personal point of view. I hope that the fact that I move a reduction in his salary will not impair those personal relationships. The fact is that we do quarrel with him for what we consider is the delay which is taking place in decisions which are vital to the future of the Army. In the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn), we wonder if the Secretary of State is being tough enough with his colleagues. For that reason, because we really feel that now, a year after the war, indecision on these matters has gone on long enough, I move a reduction in his salary. Let me soften the blow with the remark that as he is a Surtax payer, the reduction in his net emoluments will not be so great as it appears.

9.31 p.m.

The Debate has been so wide in its scope that it would be physically impossible for me to deal with all the points, many of them very interesting points too, which have been raised during the course of the discussion by hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the Committee. Therefore, I can only deal generally with what I conceive to be the two outstanding elements into which this Debate has fallen. The hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool (Brigadier Low), opened the Debate in what I thought was a well informed speech. I have no cause to complain with that part of it which was, to a certain extent, critical of the Government. After all, I have occupied the place of critic myself in days gone by, and I have no objection whatever to constructive criticism, as it used to be termed by the Prime Minister in the late Coalition Government. The hon. and gallant Member divided his remarks into two spheres, the first being the nature, the structure and the role of the future land defence forces of this country, and the second the conditions which would be applicable to members of the Regular Army, the Territorial Force, and, so long as they existed, what is called the militia force.

Let me say, particularly in reply to the noble Lord the right hon. Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton), that however wonderful a Government scheme may be on paper, however remarkable the Secretary of State for War of the day may be, as the noble Lord suggested were Mr. Haldane and one or two other Secretaries of State for War, the fact remains that an army is composed of flesh and blood, and it is with flesh and blood that we have to deal—the raw material that has made up the British Army for generations, and has done so well in all circumstances and under all Secretaries of State for War. The Regular Army that we have to endeavour to recruit has been provided for, to a certain extent, by conditions which His Majesty's Government have offered, conditions which have never before been equalled by any previous Government or in any previous army.

Hon. Members may say that pay conditions or prospects at the end of the soldier's service are not all that we would desire. But I think I can say without any fear of serious challenge that the conditions which His Majesty's Government have offered the future Army which we are in process of building are in the main, compared to civilian circumstances, something which we could offer with confidence to the young men, yes, and young women too, who we hope will be our recruits. It may be that under the present disproportionate conditions we have today, with an intense demand for civilian labour under what are mainly fictitious and transitory conditions, the terms offered by the Army may not seem so good, as they will be considered, I am quite certain, as time goes on.

We do not expect to recruit the whole of our Regular Army in a few months. That would be impossible, whatever terms we were to offer. So many men who have served in this war, to whom hon. Members have referred, we are in danger of losing as recruits for the Regular Army. Whatever terms we offer to them, they have no desire, at any rate for the moment, to serve any longer. They have served for so long and their desire at the moment is a one-way desire, namely, to get back to their wives and families, I am quite convinced that many of them before very long will have a desire and longing to go back and join many of their comrades who are still serving. The Army does offer something more than pay and conditions. It offers a comradeship which I, having served in the first world war and in the second, have never seen equalled in civilian life. I am certain that some of these things, intangible although they may be, and although they cannot be put into an estimate speech, or any estimate figures, will tell as time goes on.

May I refer to the very diverse speech made by the noble Lord the right hon. Member for Horsham? He seemed to suggest that all was not well with the Army because my right hon. Friend was not vigorous enough, or had no ideas about what he wanted for the new Army. If that were true, I am quite sure my right hon. Friend would be the first to recognise it in the constitutional way open to Ministers who recognise that they are not doing their job well. But my right hon. Friend—and I speak with some knowledge of these matters from the inside of the War Office—is engaged in defence committees, manpower committees and in the day to day work in the War Office, on these very considerations which the Noble Lord and one or two other hon. Members alleged that he is neglecting. It is not possible at this stage to disclose our plans in detail, and all that my right hon. Friend can do is to explain what he has in mind in relation to the Territorial Army, or the new Army, in broad outline. I suggest that he has given a part of his mind to the Committee as to what he envisages for the Territorial Army Association which will very soon be called together in conference, I hope, to discuss the detailed plans with which they will be confronted before the end of this year.

As I understand it, the real reason why the hon. Member for Westbury (Mr. Grimston) took the regrettable step of moving a reduction in my right hon. Friend's salary, is that he does not think my right hon. Friend has been as forthcoming as he might be about the target he has set himself for the Regular Army. Of course, it would be tragic if, in view of the disturbed conditions and the evidence and experiences of two world wars in one generation, my right hon. Friend and his military advisers took no steps to lay down plans both as to the size, composition and rôle of the Regular Forces, and such has been done. My right hon. Friend is not able to give these exact figures, but I am prepared to disclose, in part, what his immediate objective is. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who opened the Debate spoke with some knowledge, having been a staff officer himself, of operation orders, and he will know that there is an immediate objective and a much longer, distant objective. In relation to the immediate objective, I can say that we desire to get 100,000 short-service recruits in all by the end of the currency of the short-service scheme, and, 50,000 normal recruits by the end of 1946.

I think the hon. Gentleman must have misunderstood me. I did not move a reduction in the Vote because he would not give us the figures of his target. I said that we did not ask for this. I moved a reduction in the Vote because, in that and other things, he seemed to manifest so much indecision. That was the point of my moving the reduction.

I am endeavouring to say that, whatever impression my right hon. Friend gave as to the lack of decision in all these things, it is not given to all of us to have that wonderful eloquence and lucidity of the noble Lord, for instance. We can only do our best, and my right hon. Friend does his best and I am trying to do my best to explain to the Committee that decisions are being made and taken in the War Office, and I think that, in these figures which I have just given to the Committee, there is some evidence as to part of our target, even if we are not able to disclose the whole of it.

The noble Lord went on to say something about the prospects of the soldier on discharge, which was also referred to by other hon. Gentlemen in different parts of the Committee. I would only like to say that it is not possible—and I say this particularly to my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Swingler), who takes a great interest in the technical training of the militia man or Regular recruit—it is not possible to give the same universal training in the Army as it is in certain civilian trades outside. The Army is composed of several arms, and those different arms need a certain number of technicians. My hon. Friend mentioned an analysis by different arms, and I think he said that, of the present intake, 30 per cent. were going to the infantry. I gather from my hon. Friend's remarks that he thought that only the specialised arms of the Service—R.E.M.E., for example—would offer technical training for the soldier, but, with modern infantry, there are plenty of opportunities for technical training in that large portion of the Army which goes to make up the infantry. Within the infantry's ranks, many of these young soldiers will be trained as tradesmen, mustered as tradesmen and paid as tradesmen. We shall do our best to see that not only the pre-service vocation and career is given full scope when they go into the Army ranks, but also that, when they come out, they shall have opportunities of following the trade with which they came into the Army or which they have acquired while they have been in the Army.

My specific question concerned the case of a highly trained soldier who in civil life was a highly trained worker, and I wanted to know what steps the Government have taken to see that there is no trade inhibition on the part of employers or employed—that is to say the Employers' Federation or trade unions—to prevent that man immediately being absorbed into industry.

I think it is within the recollection of the Committee that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour has made a statement on that matter. I would like, if I may, to quote the gist of his remarks, even if I am not able to quote verbatim. My right hon. Friend said that negotiations are in progress between the Service Departments, the Minister of Labour and the trade unions, the object of which is to agree on a list of Service trades which will be accepted by the trade unions as affording the qualifications for trade union membership. I am glad to see that trade union membership is valued so highly, because that is the modern way of industry. The more we can do to see that the man who has acquired a trade while he has been in the Army, or who came into the Army with a trade, is able to go back into industry with those facilities, the more pleased we shall be and the more my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour will be glad to see it come to pass. Indeed, he will do his best to facilitate it.

I think the hon. Gentleman made a mistake just now when he talked about these men being paid as tradesmen. I understood that as from 1st July trade pay ceases. Perhaps he could say whether or not that is a fact.

Yes—we are rather splitting hairs at the moment—except that those who have specialised trade qualifications will be paid, although not necessarily the same rates and according to the same tests as have applied hitherto. In his closing remarks the noble Lord threw out a challenge to me—indeed I think he asked for a reply—as to our troops in Palestine and other disturbed areas being able to defend themselves against what I might call their aggressors. We have to be very careful what sort of speeches we make on those subjects in this House. We are not always conversant in this House with the conditions in those troubled parts. I would far prefer to leave it to the men on the spot to decide the answers to this question than that I, a Member of the Government, should give an answer such as the noble Lord seemed to invite.

My point was a narrow one. I asked when lethal weapons, by which I meant not only rifles but tommy guns, were used against our soldiers in any part of the world, whether there was any order from this country to prevent them replying to those lethal weapons in the same way as they would in a war?

Complete discretion and power are given to the commander on the spot, and we do not interfere with the commander who knows all the circumstances, which it is not always possible for even His Majesty's Government to elicit from telegrams from their representatives overseas. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Dudley (Colonel Wigg), in a very informative speech, asked what we are doing with regard to our trained reserves. We are aware of the necessity for those trained reserves, and I could spend the remainder of my time this evening describing what those trained reserves are. We are not overlooking that matter, and a certain number of men who have completed their Colour engagements will go on to reserve. There are other reserves; there are special reserves, and the prewar reserves or some of them are still in existence.

The hon. Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn), who has excused himself to me for not being able to be present when I made my speech, asked several questions. The most important question was: Are we in a position to confront any possible danger which may threaten us from any quarter? That is a very big question, but I think I can say this: that, so far as we can see those dangers—and it is not always possible to See them—but so far as we can see them, we have taken precautions. I mention only one small matter in that regard. No doubt, any aggression would take the form of air attack on this country. Often as I have looked at the figures, I have been surprised at the large number of antiaircraft personnel that it is necessary to keep even at this time. We are not overlooking these matters. I can give no absolute guarantee, because I do not know the magnitude of the question which has been put to me. All I can say is that we are making our plans, that they are already in existence, to deal with any emergency, if it should come. I hope, and hon. Members must hope, too, that there is no sign of that in the immediate future. After the first World War the advisers of His Majesty's Government were able to take a decision that there would be no major war for, at least, 10 years, and on that basis all the plans were made, with results that we know only too well, considering the unreadiness of the prewar Army, for which His Majesty's present Government were not responsible, to meet the emergency which eventually confronted it in 1939.

I am very glad to be able to agree with the hon. Member for Abingdon in what he said about the role of military correspondents. I have read during the war some of the articles written by some of those correspondents. He mentioned particularly the most informed and balanced articles of Captain Falls. I would welcome more of those, not only in order to popularise the Army amongst the civilian population, but in order to focus the mind of the civilian population on the enormous problems which the postwar Army has to face. The hon. baronet did ask whether the Army cadets who pass Certificate "A" would get any recognition of their work when they went to join the Army, and I think I can say that those who do pass their Certificate "A," when they do go to join the Army, will find that they have something of value and substance to them in their Army careers.

As to interchange between the British and Dominion Servicemen, I agree with that wholeheartedly, and I know that my right hon. Friend will do his best to see it is possible for officers and other ranks of the Dominions' Forces to interchange with those of our home Forces.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Petersfield (Sir G. Jeffreys) put many interesting questions with which I should have liked to deal in this Debate, but it is impossible for me to answer tonight all he said. I take only one point. The sending here of small cadres of units going into "suspended animation" is done at the present time, but, obviously, that position is unsatisfactory, because when these small cadres are sent home, then for a long time they have nothing to do, and many of them disintegrate in the course of time by the age and service release scheme.

The hon. Member for Bilston (Mr. Nally) raised a very interesting point, the problem of what he called the "long pants and pyjamas" I feel that it would be somewhat indelicate for me to go into detail on all these matters. Indeed I should have to express my own wish for the long sort or the short sort, and I feel that the Committee would not be interested in hearing my views on that matter. We have not overlooked at the War Office the desire of many soldiers to have pyjamas and handkerchiefs, and I hope that the time is not far distant when facilities will be given to them to acquire these very necessary articles. With regard to the blue walking-out dress, which has been mentioned by more than one hon. Member, I would only remind the Committee that that is His Majesty's prerogative to decide, and I understand that samples have been on show but no definite decision of approval or disapproval has yet been made.

The hon. Member for West Wolverhampton (Mr. H. D. Hughes) mentioned, among other things, the possibility of purchase by soldiers of their discharge. It is not possible yet to reintroduce that prewar practice. As to his remarks about the desire and right of soldiers to get into civilian clothes when they are off parade, I agree with him wholeheartedly, and that right exists. Many soldiers take advantage of that opportunity of getting into civilian clothes. The hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Byers) asked a question as to the opportunity which would be given for the soldier to follow his trade or business after discharge or release. I have answered, I think, the

point about the workman, but the other matter, about the man who wants to go into a small business, does not rest entirely with us at the War Office, although we can make representations. As the hon. Member said, it is a matter for the Board of Trade.

I hoped that the Opposition would not press the Motion for a reduction of the Vote which they have moved tonight, and that they would have given me an opportunity of supplementing what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said in his opening remarks. I should have thought that now that that eminent soldier Field-Marshal Montgomery has taken up his position as Chief of the Imperial General Staff at the War Office that would have been a guarantee that at least—and this was the question put by hon. Members—the Government's military advisers are men of stature, eminence and substance as they have always been. I should have thought that would have been some answer to some of the questions that they have put tonight. The Army Council works as a team. It consists of military members and civilian members. I say that on both sides—the military side and the civilian side—we are making decisions, and we are about to implement them.

Question put, "That Item Subhead A be reduced by £100 in respect of the salary of the Secretary of State for War."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 97; Noes, 193.

Division No 225.

AYES.

10 p.m.

Baldwin, A. E.

Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.

Bennett, Sir P.

Haughton, S. G.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

Pickthorn, K.

Bower, N.

Hollis, M. C.

Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

Boyd-Carpenter J. A.

Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

Prescott, Stanley

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

Prior-Palmer, Brig O.

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Jeffreys, General Sir G.

Raikes, H. V.

Byers, Lt.-Col. F.

Jennings, R.

Ramsay, Maj. S.

Carson, E.

Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Cdr. Hon L. W.

Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

Channon, H.

Keeling, E. H.

Renton, D.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

Kerr, Sir J. Graham

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

Lambert, Hon. G.

Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

Cooper-Key, E. M.

Langford-Holt, J.

Ropner, Col. L.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

Ross, Sir R.

Crowder, Capt. J. F. E.

Linstead, H. N.

Sanderson, Sir F.

Cuthbert, W. N.

Low, Brig. A. R. W.

Shepherd W. S. (Bucklow)

Darling, Sir W. Y.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Davidson, Viscountess

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

MacDonald, Sir M. (Inverness)

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

Drayson, G. B.

Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

Studholme, H. G.

Drewe, C.

Manningham-Buller, R. E.

Sutcliffe, H.

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Eccles, D. M.

Marples, A. E.

Taylor, Vice-Adm E. A. (P'dd'ton, S.)

Errol, Col. F. J.

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

Teeling, William

Foster J. G. (Northwich)

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)

Maude, J. C.

Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

Gage, Lt.-Col. C.

Medlicott, F.

Thorp, Lt Col. R. A. F.

Gammans, L. D.

Mellor, Sir J.

Touche, G. C.

Grimston, R. V.

Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

Turton, R. H.

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

Walker-Smith, D.

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Winterton, Rt. Hon Earl

TELLERS FOR THE AYES

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

York, C.

Commander Agnew and Major Conant.

White, J. B. (Canterbury)

Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

NOES.

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

Griffiths, Capt. W. D. (Moss Side)

Pearson, A.

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley)

Peart, Capt. T. F.

Austin, H. L.

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

Perrins, W.

Awbery, S. S.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Popplewell, E.

Ayles, W. H.

Hardy, E. A.

Porter, G. (Leeds).

Bacon, Miss A.

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Proctor, W. T.

Baird, Capt. J.

Herbison, Miss M.

Randall H. E.

Balfour, A.

Holman, P.

Ranger, J.

Barton, C.

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Rees-Williams, D. R.

Battley, J. R.

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Bellenger, F. J.

Hughes, Lt. H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Rhodes, H.

Berry, H.

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

Bing, G. H. C.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

Binns, J.

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Royle, C.

Blackburn, A. R.

Janner, B.

Sargood, R.

Bottomley, A. G.

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Scollan, T.

Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

Scott-Elliot, W.

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

Segal, Dr. S.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'p'l, Exch'ge)

Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

Shackleton, Wing-Cdr E. A. A.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Sharp, Lt.-Col. G. M.

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Keenan, W.

Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Kenyon, C.

Shawcross, Sir H. (St. Helens)

Burden, T. W.

Key, C. W.

Shurmer, P.

Burke, W. A.

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

Skinnard, F. W.

Callaghan, James

Kinley, J.

Smith Capt. C. (Colchester)

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Kirby, B. V.

Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.)

Champion, A. J.

Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

Snow, Capt. J. W.

Chater, D.

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Sorensen, R. W.

Clitherow, Dr. R.

Leonard, W.

Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

Cluse, W. S.

Levy, B. W.

Sparks, J. A.

Collick, P.

Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

Stamford, W.

Collins, V. J.

Lindgren, G. S.

Swingler, S.

Colman, Miss G. M.

Lyne, A. W.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

McAdam, W.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'wall, N.W.)

McAllister, G.

Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

Corlett, Dr. J.

McEntee, V. La T.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Corvedale, Viscount

McGhee, H. G.

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Cove, W. G.

McGovern, J.

Thorneycroft, H. (Clayton)

Crawley, Flt-Lieut. A.

Mack, J. D.

Thurtle, E.

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Timmons, J.

Crossman, R. H. S.

McKinlay, A. S.

Titterington, M. F.

Daggar, G.

McLeavy, F.

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Mann, Mrs. J.

Usborne, Henry

Deer, G.

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Vernon, Maj. W. F.

Delargy, Captain H. J.

Marquand, H. A.

Walkden, E.

Diamond, J.

Mayhew, C. P.

Walker, G. H.

Donovan, T.

Messer, F.

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Middleton, Mrs L.

Warbey, W. N.

Edelman, M.

Mikardo, Ian

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Mitchison, Maj. G. R.

Wigg, Col. G. E.

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

Wilkinson, Rt. Hon. Ellen

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Nally, W.

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Follick, M.

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Forman, J. C.

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Oldfield, W. H.

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)

Paget, R. T.

Williamson, T.

Gallacher, W.

Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

Woodburn, A.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Woods, G. S.

Gibson, C. W.

Palmer, A. M. F.

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Pargiter, G. A.

Zilliacus, K.

Gooch, E. G.

Parker, J.

Grierson, E.

Parkin, Flt.-Lieut. B. T.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Captain Michael Stewart and Mr. Simmons.

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Original Question again proposed.

It being after Ten o'Clock and objection being taken to further Proceeding, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

Penicillin (Control)

10.12 p.m.

I beg to move, My complaint lies in regard to the points of acquisition and disposal. I am making this Prayer not because I want to prevent or to limit the distribution of penicillin, but because this Order is, in my judgment, too limiting and restrictive in its character in one respect, and slightly too wide in another. My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir J. Mellor) on 20th June asked the Minister of Supply: vox et prœterea nihil, so I was obliged to wait for HANSARD, and then put down my Prayer.

Section 34 of the Medical Act, 1858, reads as follows: judgment of professional life or death upon doctors accused before it of unprofessional conduct. I think, too, it is fair to say that it is a body not qualified by legal training or experience to exercise the fine art of judicial appraisement or the weighing of evidence. Its powers derive from the Medical Act of 1858, and if any hon. Member cares to wander into the wastes of Chapter 90 of that Act, as I have done, he wall feel, as I felt, that he is living in prehistoric times and has encountered an aged but unvenerable tyrannosaurus. The offences because of which a doctor may be struck off vary, of course, from the venial offence of alleged self-advertisement to, for instance, the grave offence, of, shall we say, alleged adultery with one of his patients. The one charge which the General Medical Council cannot bring against a doctor is that his theory of medicine, however absurd it may be, is wrong. That is specifically mentioned in the Act. Persons of common sense might have thought that this was the one charge on which the opinion of doctors might be useful, but the Act of 1858 seals their lips.

Now doctors who have been struck off the register may continue in practice. They have done nothing criminal, they are free to practise, but they run this risk: they cannot sign a death certificate and they cannot prescribe dangerous drugs. The fact that they cannot sign a death certificate might seem, again to persons of common sense, almost a paramount reason for employing them in cases of serious or dangerous illness. I have no doubt that the General Medical Council have struck off the register many doctors who thoroughly deserved to be struck off. Equally, I have no doubt whatever that the General Medical Council have struck off many doctors who never merited such a catastrophic punishment. I shall be within the recollection of most hon. Members in citing the case of Dr. Hennessey, who was accused by a hysterical woman patient of having committed adultery with her. He was instantly struck off by the General Medical Council, but, by means of a subsequent action in the courts—the real courts, the courts of law—he was triumphant.

This Order deals with the acquisition and disposal of penicillin, and not with the General Medical Council. We cannot discuss the actions of the General Medical Council.

Very well: I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, but I was endeavouring to show cause why doctors who do not come under the heading of registered medical practitioners should be entitled under this Order to access to, and prescription of, the drug penicillin. I ask for your guidance, Sir. Am I not in Order in referring to cases where it can be shown, as I hope to show very shortly, that the skill of a doctor who has been struck off the register does in fact entitle him to the use of penicillin?

The Order only deals with those who are registered members of the Medical Council and we cannot discuss that. The only thing we can discuss is the Order for the requisition and disposal of penicillin.

Quite so, but in my humble submission, Mr. Speaker, this goes to the very roots of the merits of the Order.

The hon. Member can deal only with what is in the Order and not with what is outside the Order.

I humbly suggest that this Order prevents the public from receiving this particular medicine, which is of the greatest value, unless it is prescribed by a registered doctor, and that that is the result of this Order, and this Order alone. Therefore, can we not briefly mention why this Order should lift the provision against obtaining this medicine in the way which has been pointed out?

I should have thought not. This Order deals only with the registered practitioner. We must be limited to registered medical practitioners.

In my humble submission the Order restricts the sale or disposal of penicillin to registered medical or dental practitioners. My hon. Friend is trying to submit a case that it should be allowed to unregistered medical practitioners to use this very valuable medicine or drug, which they could do but for this Order. The Order limits the disposal or sale, or even it limits—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] May I be allowed to collect my thoughts—[An HON. MEMBER: "You want a dose of penicillin."] It does not allow anyone but a medical practitioner to acquire the drug for disposal—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] I am submitting this to Mr. Speaker as a point of Order. It limits the ordinary person from acquiring or disposing of this drug unless he is a medical practitioner. Because the Order is limited to that distinct company, I humbly submit that my hon. Friend is in Order, or might be in Order, in suggesting that it should be permitted because it is not a dangerous drug, to other people who are not qualified medical practitioners.

That may be so, but it would not be in Order to go into all the details of unregistered people who could supply this drug.

If I may pass from the particular to the general, I would say this: that many of these men who have been struck off the register are men of the highest possible medical qualifications. Many of them hold the highest degrees, and it seems to me entirely wrong that they should be debarred from the use of this invaluable drug. I could give the House many definite instances which cause me to believe that they have been in some way or other forgotten by the Ministry of Supply. I very much hope I shall enable the Ministry of Supply to remember them.

I have another reason why this Order seems to me to be very objectionable. I refer to Section 1, Subsection (1), paragraph ( d ), and Subsection (2), paragraph ( d ). It says: d ), prima facie, about the drug. The Lord Chancellor, the Attorney-General and the Patronage Secretary are all in the running. [ Laughter. ] Hon. Members may smile, but that is not so far-fetched as they think. Do the House know that His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury can make any man a Master of Arts or a Doctor of Medicine? I do not know whether he derives that power from his spiritual authority as metropolitan and diocesan bishop, or from the fact that he happens to be a member of the Board of Trade, but the power is there. He has it; and we must all agree, in whatever part of the House we sit—

With regard to these certificates to which the hon. Member refers, they do not necessarily make a man qualified to be on the register. Unless he is on the register, he would not, under this Order, be able to obtain the drug.

I quite appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says, but my whole point is that this Order which allows the Lord Chancellor to supply penicillin is, in my judgment, as ridiculous as the Archbishop of Canterbury being able to make a man a Doctor of Medicine.

Would the Archbishop of Canterbury's doctor of medicine be a registered medical practitioner?

That is not my point. My point is that that is an anachronism; and here we are creating another anachronism in this Order, if we give power to any Government Department to supply penicillin, whether or not that Department is associated with the public health. This is a reversion to antiquated methods combined with modern looseness of phraseology. Any Government putting forward an Order in these terms forfeits the title of "progressive." I hope that the House will annul the Order and let the Minister of Supply bring it forward again in an amended form, giving attention to the two points—or perhaps I might say the 1½ points—I have been allowed to raise. I have tried to put this matter forward in a non-party vein. I do not think it is a party matter, and I appeal to hon. Members on all sides of the House to join with me in going into the Lobby to cast a vote for medical freedom, and better draftsmanship.

I beg to second the Motion.

The first question I wish to ask is this—Is penicillin a poison? Is it a dangerous drug? Is it a drug that a common person should not have? I have information that it is not a dangerous drug, not a drug which can be used to cure every complaint, but that it is one that can be used, on advice, to cure a great many illnesses. I feel that there is no excuse whatever for limiting it when we allow dangerous drugs like aspirin—[HON. MEMBERS: "Is it?"] Yes, it is a dangerous drug. Anybody can go to a chemist's shop and buy a bottle of aspirins, and anybody can kill themselves, if they want to, and they do, from time to time, by taking too many aspirins. [ Interruption. ] I am not going to kill myself, in spite of what the hon. Gentleman says. I hope that I shall be here on many an occasion—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I thank hon. Members opposite for the applause they gave that last remark.

Will the hon. Gentleman allow me? With regard to aspirins, in which I happen to be interested, will he not admit that one can kill oneself by drinking too much milk, too much coffee or too much beer?

No, Sir. I would not admit that. Milk of the right sort, provided it is pasteurised, is good for health. If you take too many aspirins—I do not say Aspro—they are bad for the constitution. A great many people are able to go to a chemist's shop and buy a bottle of aspirins, and, if they take too many, they kill themselves. There is no doubt whatever that, if a number of people went to a chemist's shop and were able to buy penicillin, it would not do them any good, but it could not do them any harm. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] Yes. Maybe, there are some doctors on the Benches opposite who would say that penicillin would do them some harm, but I submit that there is a consensus of opinion among the medical profession that penicillin would not do any harm. It will not necessarily cure, but it will not kill.

So I see no object whatever in this Order. When the Government say that penicillin can be obtained from a Government Department, I wonder what it really means. Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer going to give penicillin as an antidote to taxation? What is the point? [ Laughter. ] Hon. Members may laugh, but what is the point of putting in that you can obtain penicillin from a Government Department? Why should you obtain penicillin from a Government Department? Do we have to apply to the Government to get aspirins or milk or anything else? Why is it that we have to apply to a Government Department to get penicillin? Why should not the medical profession or the chemists—[AN HON. MEMBER: "Read the Order."] I have read the Order. If hon. Members would like me to read it at this time of the night. I will do so. I do ask for an explanation of the Order. I did not believe it was necessary when it was first produced. I feel that the House should turn on the Government to-night—all parties, for this is not a party matter—and express their indignation with an Order of this nature.

10.36 p.m.

The point I wish to raise is that I cannot see in this Order where agriculture comes in. We know penicillin is a drug which is useful for animals. We all know that experiments are going on which show that it will be very useful indeed in the livestock industry. Will the Minister be good enough to tell us how it is possible for a veterinary surgeon to get the drug under this Order. I can only suggest it may be under Section 1 (2) ( e ) which says:

"Under the authority and in accordance with a licence granted by the Minister of Supply."

Where does the Minister of Agriculture come in? This is an important matter for the health of our livestock. How can the agricultural industry get the drug, if it is in supply sufficient beyond the needs of human beings, as I believe it is; how can the drug be obtained by the agricultural industry under this Order?

I feet that some of the comments of hon. Members warrant my making a brief reference to the background of this subject. Penicillin was until late in 1942 solely a product of the scientific laboratory. But its production has been widely developed, and in the United Kingdom alone £3 million has been spent on plant and factories. Of that total, £2 million is Government money. It is one of the most potent cures known to medicine for certain diseases, but it is not a universal cure. In fact, its indiscriminate use may be attended by grave consequences. For instance, there is a real danger of spreading strains of bacteria which are resistant to penicillin if improperly used, and for details on that point I would like to refer to the Question answered by the Minister of Health on 16th May to the hon. Member for Hanley (Dr. Stross).

A brief reference to production. There are two methods. The earliest was that of surface culture. I think I can state that that method will be substantially departed from by the end of this month, leaving the new method, called deep culture, responsible for by far the greater bulk of the production, which will come mainly from two factories—one at Speke and the other at Barnard Castle. I think it would also be appropriate that I should explain the manner in which this production has grown. The average monthly production of penicillin in 1943 was 300 mega units. In 1944, it was 3,200 mega units and in 1945 it had grown to 26,000 mega units a month. Penicillin made available from June production this year will be about 300,000 mega units. From this total, some 56,000 mega units will be allocated to the Services. There will be exports, of course, but that will leave nearly 250 thousand mega units for home and export use. Export licences have already been granted for 130 thousand mega units, leaving about 120 thousand for home consumption, but it must be remembered that production is expected to increase fairly substantially over the next few months, and we are not now importing penicillin.

With regard to the question why control of distribution is necessary. Distribution has gone through three stages. When it was only available in very small quantities, it was allocated by the Clinical Trials Committee of the General Medical Council, and I think it will be agreed that that was a very suitable medium for the purpose. When it was more readily available, it was distributed as a free issue to some 200 hospitals, through the Ministry of Health. I would like to give thanks to those institutions for the help given to us in the distribution of what supplies were then available. Greater production has made distribution possible through commercial channels from 1st June last, and such statutory control as there is has been arranged largely at the request of the trade, and with their fullest cooperation in the drafting of this Order.

Although the production of penicillin is now substantial, the supply position would not allow of uncontrolled distribution, which might result in the experience of America—which is within the knowledge of some hon. Members—when penicillin was diverted to trivial uses. That is one of the reasons why we are applying this form of control. It is impossible at present to forecast, with any degree of accuracy, the extent of civilian demand for penicillin under the wider distribution scheme. Until commercial distribution has been in being for some months, we must ensure that it is available in full quantity for the genuine medical user rather than for indiscriminate general use. On the advice of the industrial and professional bodies concerned it was decided to make it freely available to hospitals, doctors and dentists, and for it to be sold to the general public by chemists only on production of a certificate from a qualified practitioner. It was also decided that the manufacture of items of penicillin content should be restricted to such preparations as the Minister of Supply, with the approval of the Minister of Health, should advise. It was found possible to cover this by arrangements with the trade. We think that treatment of all those benefiting from the application of penicillin will, therefore, be covered.

Before the hon. Gentleman leaves that point, will he please make this clear? Is it the intention of the Government, that, in however large a quantity penicillin may be available, this Order shall be permanent purely for medical reasons?

When penicillin becomes available in greater measure the policy applied under the present conditions will require to be reviewed, but that is as far as I can go at the present time. With regard to the veterinary use, in reply to a Question of 20th May last, the Minister of Agriculture said:

I have been asked if penicillin is a poison. I am advised that penicillin is not a poison or a dangerous drag, but it may produce harmful results if used without medical guidance. The main reason for limitation is to prevent it being frittered away to trifling uses, and supplies are not yet sufficient, notwithstanding what I have said, if use is made of this very important production in ways other than those to which I have referred. I have been asked too what the Order means with regard to Government Departments. That was put in this form to enable penicillin to be used for veterinary purposes, and that will, therefore, make it possible for the Ministry of Agriculture to be one of the Departments referred to.

With regard to the question of registered practitioners, that is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, and I do not feel competent to go into it. I only wish my hon. Friend had given us warning that this would be raised.

May I inform my hon. Friend that the Parliamentary Private Secretary came to see me the other day in the Library of the House and asked me precisely what I was going to say, and I told him?

That is the only reply I can give to the point. I feel that because of the background I have endeavoured to portray that the House would be well advised to proceed with the Order and not agree to the Prayer.

10.49 p.m.

I only want to say one word on the agricultural aspect of this matter. Mastitis is undoubtedly a great scourge of dairy herds today. It is the one disease we have not really got in hand. There are various types of mastitis, and a good many of these types respond to drugs of the sulphonamide group, but there is one particular type of mastitis—the most virulent of all the types—which in my district is known as "summer bag." It probably has different names in other districts. It is very prevalent, particularly in August and September; we do not quite know why, but it has probably something to do with the flies. The effect of that form of the disease is that if often kills the cow, and invariably destroys the quarter of the bag which it attacks. I am very anxious that penicillin, which experiments have proved is startingly effective for that type of mastitis, should be available during August and September, if that is possible. With regard to the other question of general control, doctors with whom I have talked on this subject tell me that penicillin is less effective each time it is applied. Therefore I feel it may be very important that its use should be always on medical grounds, so that it shall not be acquired for unnecessary use.

10.51 p.m.

I do not pretend to have any knowledge at all upon this rather technical subject. I want only to obtain as much information as possible, because I know that this is a matter of considerable public interest. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary made a clear exposition of the present view of his Ministry, but still left one in a good deal of doubt as to what are really the policy and intentions of the Government. He has justified the Order on two grounds, first, that the supply of penicillin is not yet adequate for all the possible purposes for which it may be required by the general public, and, second, that if penicillin were generally available, without restriction, to the general public, it might, in some way, inflict a certain amount of harm.

On the first point, I do think the Government ought to tell us when it is anticipated that sufficient penicillin will be available for all the purposes for which it may be required by the general public. Will they also tell us what harm the Ministry is advised by its medical advisers penicillin might do? What view does the Ministry hold concerning the possible harm that penicillin might do? I do not pretend to any knowledge upon this subject, but I should like to know what the official advice of the medical advisers to the Ministry is upon this point, because I think it is essential that the public should be correctly informed. Will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary tell us when we can anticipate that there will be ample penicillin available?

Really, what is the policy of the Ministry? It must have been discussed very carefully. Do they intend to keep penicillin under permanent control? The Joint Parliamentary Secretary told as that when there was a sufficient supply it might be possible to relax the restrictions, and that the matter would, of course, have to be reviewed. But, surely, the supply of penicillin is continually expanding, and the Ministry is not waiting without thinking about it? It is a very important matter, and must be constantly engaging the attention of the Ministry, and of the Ministry of Health. I think the House and the general public ought to be informed of the progress of their consideration, and we ought to have some better indication of what the policy is to be than we have had. How far does the Ministry consider that penicillin should be controlled even when it comes into ample supply? I hope very much the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, with the leave of the House, will intervene again, in order to give that information, because I am certain it is information which the general public is very anxious to have.

10.55 p.m.

I would like, in two sentences, to reinforce two points. First of all, I think it is very objectionable to control the supply of any drug or medicine unless it is a poison. There may be temporary grounds for control over a brief period, while there is a limitation of supply, particularly perhaps during wartime. I am not sure, frankly, whether I would vote against the Ministry on this matter, because I am not very convinced that drugs that are controlled should be made available to unregistered medical practitioners, but what I do object to is the control of drugs at all unless they are poisons. The second point is the agricultural use of this product. It is, as hon. Members have emphasised, supremely important—all the more important in view of the diminishing milk supply which we are to expect next winter—that every possible scientific aid should be brought to the farmer, and I would like an assurance that the drug will become as freely available as possible to the agricultural industry. Particularly I would like to know that the control will come off as soon as the drug is in plentiful supply.

I want to put a point about which I think the House ought to know. It is evident that penicillin is still in short supply, and that that is the main reason why the Minister has not been able to decontrol the supply. It is a fact that penicillin is perhaps the most remarkable invention of British science this century, and it is also a horrifying fact that we have paid a royalty to America for permission to utilise the deep fermentation process for the production of penicillin at speed. Therefore, the fundamental reason for the fact that we are having this Debate at all is the failure of previous Governments to bridge the gap between fundamental research and applied research. Surely it is a terrible thing that one of the greatest British inventions of this century should have been so neglected by the failure of Government Departments to supply the gap which is left by private enterprise that we have had to pay a huge sum in royalties to America for permission to develop this invention, which may be of such great advantage to mankind.

10.59 p.m.

I only rise because I genuinely feel that if there are to be limits placed upon this quite invaluable medicine, which is the most wonderful cure, there will be many cases in which it ought to be used when it will not be used. If one cuts one's finger one can go into a chemist's shop and get iodine to put on it, and save oneself from poisoning. If there are to be restrictions in the way of obtaining penicillin when there is ample penicillin available, there will be many occasions when it ought to be used when in fact it will not be used. The only other point in the Parliamentary Secretary's reply that I would, criticise was that relating to Government Departments. He said that the Ministry of Agriculture wanted to have the right to use penicillin. I agree entirely, but in this Order, so far as I can see, any Government Department will have the right to use it. Why does he not state the Ministry of Agriculture quite frankly and openly? Why is it just "a Government Department," which might include the Ministry of Town and Country Planning? I would like to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say that when there is sufficient penicillin available, not being a dangerous drug, the public will be able to buy it and use it freely for curing simple ailments. I woud ask him to say also why only this Department should have this privilege, instead of making it available for all Departments. I do net think we have had a fair reply.

11.0 p.m.

May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary one question? I would like to know to what type of penicillin this refers. Does it refer to the liquid and crystal penicillin, or to those preparations made from penicillin like tooth paste, creams and ointments?

If it refers to tooth paste, we ought not to have to go to a doctor to get a prescription to get penicillin tooth paste as soon as it becomes available. I believe it should be used by everybody, and that creams and ointments, and so on, should be in every single household in the Kingdom as a household protection for many simple ailments. I hope, therefore, that this Order will only restrict it while it is in short supply. We have heard from the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn) that it is one of the greatest inventions of our day. In a very short time it will have saved more lives than all the wars in all the ages have lost. Therefore, I do not think there should be any impediment to the issuing of penicillin if it is of such great value. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us that Government Departments will be able to issue it for human research as well as for agricultural and Veterinary research, because some of the qualified medical men who carry on research in our great medical schools would not be described as registered medical practitioners for they, like other distinguished doctors, some of whom have gone in for politics, prefer to have none of the inhibitions of the General Medical Council associated with them, and therefore they have not got their names on the Medical register.

11.3 p.m.

I had sincerely hoped to have had a sufficiently satisfactory reply from the Parliamentary Secretary to be able to withdraw my Prayer. What the House has had has been an extremely interesting lecture on penicillin, but the hon. Gentleman has skated very thinly over the two points that I put to him. He has not given a proper answer to my question about a Government Department, which I admit is merely a question of words, but words are important, and particularly important in Statutory Rules and Orders. He has not given me the smallest answer on my question about the unregistered medical practitioner. Of

course, in view of the fact that I was, as it were, decapitated in mid-flight, he has not had the benefit of hearing my full remarks on that subject, and on that I commiserate with him, but I say that his speech has shown that there is a thorough muddle in the Ministry of Supply in regard to the supply of penicillin. I say that this Order is a thoroughly muddled Order and ought to be annulled and a fresh Order instituted and laid before the House in the ordinary way. Therefore, I find myself compelled very reluctantly to divide the House on this matter.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. The Parliamentary Secretary has made several attempts to rise with the leave of the House.

That is not a point of Order.

Question put,

"That the Control of Penicillin (No. 1) Order, 1946 (S.R. & O., 1946, No. 731), dated 21st May, 1946, a copy of which was presented on 24th May, be annulled."

The House divided: Ayes, 45; Noes, 145.

Division No. 226.]

AYES.

[11.5 p.m.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

Gage, Lt.-Col. C.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Raikes, H. V.

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

Renton, D.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

Haughton, S. G.

Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

Cooper-Key, E. M.

Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

Studholme, H. G.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Jeffreys, General Sir G.

Teeling, William

Crowder, Capt. J. F. E.

Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Cdr. Hon. L. W.

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Cuthbert, W. N.

Lambert, Hon. G.

Turton, R. H.

Darling, Sir W. Y.

Langford-Holt, J.

White, J. B. (Canterbury)

Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl.

Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

Manningham-Buller, R. E.

Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

Drayson, G. B.

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

Drewe, C.

Mellor, Sir J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Eccles D. M.

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

Mr. E. P. Smith and

Errol, Col. F. J.

Prescott, Stanley

Mr. Charles Taylor.

Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

NOES.

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

Callaghan, James

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Champion, A. J.

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

Austin, H. L.

Clitherow, Dr. R.

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Awbery S. S.

Collick, P.

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Baird, Capt. J.

Collins, V. J.

Forman, J. C.

Balfour, A.

Colman, Miss G. M.

Foster, W. (Wigan)

Barton, C.

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Bellenger, F. J.

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)

Bennett, Sir P.

Corlett, Dr. J.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Berry, H.

Corvedale, Viscount

Gibson, C. W.

Bing, G. H. C.

Cove, W. G.

Gooch, E. G.

Binns, J.

Crawley, Flt.-Lieut. A.

Grierson, E.

Blackburn, A. R.

Crossman, R. H. S.

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Griffiths, Capt. W. D. (Moss Side)

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'p'l, Exch'ge)

Deer, G.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Delargy, Captain H. J.

Hardy, E. A.

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Donovan, T.

Herbison, Miss M.

Burke, W. A.

Driberg, T. E. N.

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Edelman, M.

Holman, P.

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Nally, W.

Sparks, J. A.

Hughes, Lt. H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Swingler, S.

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Paget, R. T.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Palmer, A. M. F.

Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

Janner, B.

Pargiter, G. A.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Parker, J.

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

Pearson, A.

Thorneycroft, H. (Clayton)

Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

Peart, Capt. T. F.

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Keenan, W.

Perrins, W.

Usborne, Henry

Kenyon, C.

Popplewell, E.

Walkden, E.

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Kinley, J.

Randall, H. E.

Warbey, W. N.

Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

Ranger, J.

Weitzman, D.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Rees-Williams, D. R.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Wigg, Col. G. E.

Leonard, W.

Rhodes, H.

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Levy, B. W.

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Lindgren, G. S.

Royle, C.

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Lyne, A. W.

Scott-Elliot, W.

Williamson, T.

McAdam, W.

Segal, Dr. S.

Woodburn, A.

Mack, J. D.

Shackleton, Wing-Cdr. E. A. A.

Woods, G. S.

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Sharp, Lt.-Col. G. M.

Yates, V. F.

McLeavy, F.

Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Shurmer, P.

Zilliacus, K.

Mayhew, C. P.

Simmons, C. J.

Messer, F.

Smith, Capt. C. (Colchester)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.

Mikardo, Ian

Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

Mr. Joseph Henderson and

Mitchison, Maj. G. R.

Snow, Capt. J. W.

Captain Michael Stewart

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

Servicemen's Families, Hong Kong (Allowances)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn." [ Mr. R. J. Taylor. ]

11.13 p.m.

I apologise for detaining the House at this late hour after a very busy week, but I have been waiting four months to raise what I consider is a very important point, which concerns a fair number of British subjects—British families interned at Hong Kong during the war. An Army regulation states that family allowances are not permissible when the families are living in our territory which the enemy occupied. Why it should be so I cannot understand, because the men's dependants exist, wherever they are. Nevertheless, it is possible that the regulation was formulated on the assumption that no British territory would ever be occupied. If a Service man's family was unfortunate enough to be detained by the enemy, they would be in such territory for their own convenience; otherwise, they would not have been there at all. Consideration should be given to these unfortunate people who were caught in the violent Japanese onslaught in the Far East.

In July, 1940, the Regular Forces' families in Hong Kong were evacuated, mainly to Australia and a few to the Philippines, but there was an intervening period of some 18 months before the Pacific war really started. The Armies in Hong Kong enlisted local boys, sons of business men who had been educated in the Colony. Of course, they often married and their families were not evacuated but were allowed to remain, the wives doing V.A.D. work, and so on: also the Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps, which played a fine part in the defence of the island, was mobilised and put on the same basis as the Regular Forces, which meant that their wives and children came under the same rules for pay as those of soldiers sent out from this country. Furthermore, the Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps consisted of some 15 nationalities—Portuguese, Chinese, and many others living in this island of ours. Many of these families were qualified, as British Europeans, for evacuation in 1940, but could not go because of the expense of the journey to Australia and further South. The bad conditions in which these women and children lived in Stanley Camp, I am told, had to be seen to be believed. It was absolutely pathetic. They were huddled together on the Southern side of the island. I do not know if the Financial Secretary knows Hong Kong, but for about three months of the summer the humidity is frightful. They had no mosquito nets, and they were underfed. It is surprising, really, that they existed at all. I know of one family, now back in England, of five boys under the age of 12, three of whom are now suffering from tuberculosis as a result of living almost entirely on a small diet of rice. Had these families not been in Hong Kong, but in India or elsewhere, they would have been paid the normal family allowances applicable to the Army.

But, in order to keep alive and just to exist in this Stanley Camp, the wives had to sell the few possessions they were able to get away from their homes. I am told, on good authority, that they even had to sell their wedding rings. They had to sell everything they had to buy food for their children and themselves. They had to pay fantastic prices for food for themselves, to augment what was a totally insufficient diet. As a result of having to get this money, all these people obtained loans. They obtained their supplies from their own nationals who were free, or comparatively free, in the island; also from Chinese shopkeepers who played a great part in keeping our British people alive. These Chinese risked their lives frequently to get food into this camp. Nevertheless, I.O.U.'s had to be given: cheques also were given. I know it can be said that these cheques need not be honoured, but many of the husbands of these women feel that they should pay their debts. I know one man who has paid his debts. He actually owed 3,000 Hong Kong dollars for food parcels which he had been able to purchase. I am told that one man who was detained in the camp, I believe he was employed in the sanitary department of the Hong Kong Government, was reputed to have left the camp with £200,000 worth of cheques, I.O.U.'s and bills. I have heard a higher figure given. It may be less, but that is the approximate figure with which this man is said actually to have left the camp. I do not know whether he has been apprehended and tried for collaboration with the Japanese. If he has not, I hope he will be. He is supposed to have sold a Red Cross parcel for £300—in fact several of them. After years of work these men who made their homes in Hong Kong, taking their part in the Hong Kong Defence Corps, have spent many years in captivity, either in Formosa or in Japan. They may have to go back to re-establish their livelihood. Many have gone back, and have found their homes completely stripped and all timber and fittings removed, with just the bare walls left. I ask the Financial Secretary—while I appreciate that the Colonial Office have made a small allowance—to pay these people a full, or nearly full allowance. It does not amount to a very great deal of money, and these people will play a very great part for our Empire when they go back. I appeal to the Financial Secretary to help them.

11.21 p.m.

The hon. and gallant Member has raised the point about a certain number of families, including those in the Hong Kong Volunteers, which, as he has mentioned in his speech, would be the responsibility of the Colonial Office. It is not a responsibility of the War Office, and all I can say is, that the Colonial Office is dealing with that class of person. I think the individual cases he referred to in his remarks ought to be fully investigated because I cannot accept all he has said with regard to them, except in the one instance which he gave of the acquisition of a large amount of cheques and bills by one individual. Investigations would have to be made, and Hong Kong is a long way away, and these inquiries would necessarily be protracted. All I can say is something about the Service families, of which there were, as far as we know, about 50. For these families, the War Office has done more or less what it has done for the families of other Service men. Where the officer or soldier satisfies us that he has provided for his family for the whole period—and Hong Kong fell in 1941, and was not relieved until last summer—he is given the lodging allowance applicable to his family for the whole period. Where the officer or soldier did not provide for the family—

Has the officer or soldier to prove that he has actually expended up to the full amount of the allowance in order to draw the full allowance? If he cannot prove to have expended the full amount, does he get paid the full allowance?

I should not like to be too explicit on that point. But, where the officer or soldier shows that he was responsible for the maintenance of his family, he is entitled to the full normal family lodging allowance. But, where he did not provide but is now prepared to set aside an amount equal to two-sevenths of his pay, in the case of an officer, or the qualifying allotment, in the case of a soldier, then we add the separation allowance of 21 shillings in the case of an officer, and 13 shillings for other ranks, which was raised in, I think, March, 1942, to 16s. 6d. Then there is the case where an officer or other rank does not wish to take advantage of the special separation grant scheme because his family may have private resources. We are dealing with these cases of debts of honour, and, in fact, of the 50 cases to which I referred, we have dealt with more than two-thirds.

Will the hon. Gentleman explain why, seeing that the members of the Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps were mobilised, it is the responsibility of the Colonial Office? They were mobilised in the British Army, and, surely, it is for the War Office, and not the Colonial Office, to settle the responsibility. If it is the Colonial Office, will he discuss this question with his colleague the Secretary of State for the Colonies to make sure the treatment is equitable both to the Volunteers and the Regular Forces?

I am advised that is not the responsibility of the War Office, but of the Colonial Office, in the case to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman refers, but something is being done by the Colonial Office, and all that I can say, in answer to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, is that I will bring his remarks in this particular regard to the notice of my right hon. Friend.

Finally, there is little for me to say on this matter. The problem is not as large as I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman himself led us to believe. As I said, we know of only about 50 Service families in this position, and we are, as I have explained, doing something for them. I hope that most of them, at any rate, are satisfied with what has been done.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-six Minutes past Eleven o'Clock.