House of Commons
Monday, July 1, 1946
The House met at Hall past Two o'Clock
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]
Private Business
MARQUESS OF ABERGAVENNY'S ESTATE BILL [Lords]
Bill read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.—[ King's Consent signified. ]
Glasgow Corporation Bill
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
GAS LIGHT AND COKE COMPANY BILL [Lords]
Read a Second time, and committed
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Malta (Emigration to Italian Colonies)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the recent discussions on Italian Colonies, in Paris, the claims of Malta were considered; and whether, in view of the problem in Malta of migration, he will propose that the Maltese should be allowed to use parts of the former North African Colonies for colonisation purposes.
I am not quite clear what the hon. Member has in mind in referring to the claims of Malta, but as regards the proposal in the second part of the Question, the opportunities for immigration in the former Italian Colonies can only be determined as part of the final settlement of the future of those territories, a question which does not concern only His Majesty's Government. The claims of the Maltese to share in any immigration opportunities that there are will, however, certainly not be overlooked by His Majesty's Government.
While I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply, does he realise that what I meant was that the Maltese suffered very much from lack of facilities for migration before the war and in view of what they went through during the war, would not North Africa be a very suitable place?
I was not quite clear that that was what had been meant but, as I have said, His Majesty's Government are clearly aware of the claims and necessities of this subject.
Spain
Exiled Republican Groups
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are his Department's arrangements for obtaining information about Spanish Republican groups in exile in France and elsewhere.
As part of their normal duties, His Majesty's Missions abroad furnish reports on all political developments of any importance in the countries in which they are serving. This naturally includes information concerning the activities and views of Spanish Republican exiles. In particular, His Majesty's Embassies in Paris and Mexico City maintain unofficial contact with the Spanish Republicans in those countries.
Is my hon Friend aware that, when I was in Paris about a month ago, I went to the British Embassy and was told there was not a single official in the Embassy whose job it was to specialise on Spanish Republican matters? I could not find anybody to talk to.
We would have to have a very extensive staff if we had to have specialists on every particular aspect of our foreign policy in each Mission. I should make it plain that not only His Majesty's Ambassador in Paris, but several members of his staff have seen prominent Spanish Republican exiles in recent months.
Cannot this group be relied upon to make their opinions clear in terms even more ambitious than their numbers justify?
Leon Degrelle (Expulsion)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representations he has made to secure the extradition from Spain of the former Belgian Quisling, Leon Degrelle.
His Majesty's Ambassador in Madrid has made repeated representations to the Spanish Government in support of the representations made by the Belgian Charge d'Affaires to secure the expulsion of Degrelle from Spain. It has been made clear to the Spanish Government that in view of the fact that Degrelle arrived in Spain in German uniform His Majesty's Government consider that he should be sent back to Germany as a member of the German armed forces. His Majesty's Government take a serious view of the failure of the Spanish Government to expel this obnoxious Quisling, and His Majesty's Embassy in Madrid will continue to press their representations.
Can my hon. Friend say what will happen supposing these representations are successful in securing the extradition of Degrelle from Spain to Germany? What arrangements will then be made for him to be handed back to his own people for trial?
If he is sent to the British zone in Germany, then His Majesty's Government will do their duty, which is to hand him over immediately to the Belgian authorities.
Like many former Fascists, will he be given an opportunity of now becoming a Communist?
Armed Forces (Germans)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will take steps to secure the handing over to the allied authorities of all German armed forces who are now serving with the Spanish armed forces in Spain and in the Spanish zone of Morocco.
His Majesty's Embassy in Madrid have received information that a few Germans may have enlisted in the Spanish Foreign Legion, which is normally the only method by which foreigners can join the Spanish Army. My right, hon. Friend asked the Spanish Ministry for Foreign Affairs to investigate one particular case of this nature, and to furnish a list of any German nationals who had joined the Foreign Legion since the end of the war with Germany. We are pressing the Ministry for Foreign Affairs for a full reply.
Can my hon. Friend give no more definite figure of the number of ex-enemy personnel whom we believe to be in Spain, and, if the present representations fail, might he not consider taking the matter up with the hon. Member for Mid-Bradford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd), who seems to have some information about the Spanish Government?
I could not reply for the Opposition Front Bench, with all the good will in the world. Plainly, if I had the full information, we would not be pressing the Spanish Foreign Minister for it.
Security Council Action
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why he instructed the permanent British representative on the Security Council to insist upon a narrowly legalistic interpretation of paragraph 7, of Article 2, of the United Nations Charter, when discussing the question of action in regard to Franco Spain.
As the answer is necessarily long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer.
My hon. Friend's Question, I consider, shows a misunderstanding of the position. The recommendations of the subcommittee on Spain to the Security Council raised a question of fundamental importance regarding the interpretation and application of the charter, namely, the extent to which the United Nations organisation is entitled to intervene in matters which fall within the domestic jurisdiction of any country. Article 2 (7) of the Charter reads as follows: This means that the United Nations organisation is only justified in intervening in matters of domestic jurisdiction when there is a case for action under Chapter VII of the Charter, that is to say, when the Security Council has determined the existence of a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression. However, the sub-committee in their report declared that there was no case for action under Chapter VII. They nevertheless made proposals which seemed to involve intervention in matters within the domestic jurisdiction of Spain. It was clear that quite apart from its application to the Spanish problem the case would form a precedent of the greatest importance, and that it was therefore necessary that the Security Council, before going further, should satisfy themselves that their decisions were grounded on a sound legal basis. My right hon. Friend, therefore, instructed Sir A. Cadogan to express the doubts of His Majesty's Government on the legal issues involved, and to put forward a resolution proposing that the question should be referred to the General Assembly at its next meeting in September, where the question of the interpretation of the Charter could be debated, with the assistance of the many jurists who would be available and with the possibility, should the Assembly so desire, of obtaining the opinion of the International Court.
Questions
U.N.R.R.A. (Supplies for Europe)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many tractors have been supplied by U.N.R.R.A., since last October to the U.S.S.R., Poland and Czechoslovakia.
I am informed that U.N.R.R.A. have not so far supplied any tractors to the Ukraine and Byelo-Russia, the two states of the U.S.S.R. in receipt of U.N.R.R.A. assistance. Since last October, U.N.R.R.A. have shipped 578 tractors to Czechoslovakia and approximately 750 to Poland.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, in view of the fact that economic distress will continue in Europe for some considerable time, he will take initial steps to ensure that U.N.R.R.A. supplies will not cease at the end of this year.
U.N.R.R.A. have been authorised to continue shipments of relief supplies to Europe after the end of this year until such time as the Administration's programmes are completed. The future of U.N.R.R.A. will be discussed at the Fifth Session of the U.N.R.R.A. Council, which will be held early in August.
Russian Scientists (Visits to United Kingdom)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if any arrangements are being made for inviting Soviet scientists to visit Britain in return for the visit which our scientists paid to Russia last year.
Yes, Sir. The Soviet Academy of Sciences has accepted the invitation of the Royal Society to send a delegation to the Isaac Newton Tercentenary celebrations in London this month. Cordial invitations have also been issued by the Physical Society to a Soviet physicist to deliver the Guthrie Lecture and to the Soviet Academy of Sciences to nominate a delegation to attend a conference in Cambridge in July.
Albania (Diplomatic Relations)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present position of our relationship with Albania.
Since the recognition of the Albanian Government by His Majesty's Government in November, 1945, His Majesty's Government have been in discussion with the Albanian Government regarding the resumption of diplomatic relations. These discussions have been suspended, pending a satisfactory settlement of the incident on 15th May when Albanian shore batteries opened fire without warning on two of His Majesty's ships proceeding through the Corfu channel.
Is it also true that, at the recent trial in Albania of three people who were sentenced to death, it was suggested that we were partly responsible for a plot against the State; and, if we are not legally in touch with the Albanian Government, is there any means by which we can inform the people of Albania that we had nothing to do with it?
We are, of course, in touch through our resident diplomatic missions in Belgrade.
Greece
Army Reorganisation
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state now that the reorganisation of the Greek army by the British Military Mission is almost completed, the number of ex-members of the security battalions now serving on list A of the Greek Army; and the number of officers who formerly served in the E.L.A.S. resistance movement during the German occupation who now hold active service commissions in the Greek army.
I regret that the information requested by my hon. and gallant Friend is not available. I am making inquiries, and will communicate with him as soon as possible.
As this exceedingly important information is not available, what check has my hon. Friend in order to see that, in the recruiting for the Greek Army, it is composed of elements drawn from the whole of the Greek community instead of merely one section of the community?
As I have previously explained to my hon. Friend, our task in this business is exclusively advisory, but, however, I think it would be in the general interest to secure the figures, which I will do and which I will let my hon. Friend have, as far as I am successful, as quickly as possible.
Law and Order
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what fresh representations he has made to the Greek Government in regard to the maintenance of law and order and the safeguarding of rights of citizens in Greece.
His Majesty's Government are in constant touch with the Greek Government on the subject of the maintenance of law and order in Greece.
Has my hon. Friend drawn the attention of the Greek Government specifically to the illiberal character of the new public security law, and will he make it clear that we will not tolerate the creation of a police State in Greece under British protection?
There is certainly no question of a police State in Greece arising under British protection. The question of the new law is rather involved, but we have offered some advice on the subject.
Can my hon. Friend confirm or deny that, under this legislation, the right to strike on the railways and public utility companies of Greece is prohibited under penalties of heavy imprisonment?
I think it is true to say—although I would like a precise Question on the subject—that there are conditions in which strike action is accepted as a legal act.
Plebiscite
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the Greek Government's refusal to make the constitutional régime the subject of the forthcoming plebiscite, he will dissociate His Majesty's Government from all responsibilities in connection with the holding of the plebiscite.
I am not clear what action of the Greek Government my hon. Friend has in mind. The revised arrangements for the plebiscite will I understand, make it possible for the people of Greece to express their view as to the constitutional régime at the same time as recording their vote for or against, the return of King George II.
Is it not clear, from the statement of the Greek Government at the recent Parliamentary session, that the purpose of the plebiscite is simply to determine whether or not King George of the Hellenes shall return to Greece, and is not this a violation of pledges given by King George and by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) that the Greek people would be free to determine their future constitutional régime?
I think my hon. Friend is mistaken. The proposed machinery for the plebiscite will permit the citizens of that country to make any recommendations, remarks or comments which they have to make upon their constitutional régime.
Could my hon. Friend say what kind of validity these remarks made upon the ballot papers will have?
The law provides for these remarks, and they will have the full status provided by the law.
Questions
Baltic States (Status)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent recent agreements have affected the status of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania; and whether His Majesty's Government still recognise the validity of the treaties of 1920, granting independence to these three States.
No recent agreement to which His Majesty's Government are a party has affected the status of the Baltic States. The treaties of 1920 referred to were made between each of the three Baltic States and Soviet Russia. As His Majesty's Government were not a party to them, they naturally cannot make any statement on the present validity of these treaties.
Is not the Minister aware that the incorporation of these three independent States in the Soviet Union involved the violation of no less than five clear, definite treaties?
I will examine that matter without prejudice, but I was asked about the 1920 treaties and it is about them that I have replied.
Does the hon. Gentleman remember that his Department recently informed justices of the High Court of certain indications that these three States had de facto ceased to exist?
South Tyrol
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that, on 1st November, 1945, 93 per cent. of the officials introduced into the South Tyrol were Italian, almost invariably without any knowledge of German; and whether he will insist that a clause be inserted in the Peace Treaty, securing that a fair proportion, at least, of the officials in the South Tyrol should be German speaking.
I have no information of the exact figures, but the measures already taken by the Italian Government to guarantee equal linguistic rights as between German and Italian in this area suggest that the Italian Government are alive to the importance of this matter. My right hon. Friend is not persuaded that a provision in the Peace Treaty would be the best way of dealing with this subject.
Does not the hon. Gentleman recollect that all the solemn promises given by the Italian Government in 1919 to respect the rights of minorities were broken, and that, therefore, it is necessary for some definite treaty—something in black and white—to guarantee the rights of this oppressed people?
Polish War Prisoners, Germany
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give an assurance that those Poles in Germany who reached there as prisoners of war after the Polish 1939 campaign or after the collapse of the Warsaw rising will be treated not as displaced persons but as allied soldiers and will be eligible to benefit from all the advantages accruing to the regular members of the Polish Forces such as the Resettlement Corps.
No, Sir. His Majesty's Government clearly have special responsibilities towards those Poles who fought with us as members of the Polish Armed Forces under British Command, but these responsibilities do not extend to other categories of Poles such as those referred to by the hon. and gallant Member.
Is not the Minister aware that these Polish ex-prisoners of war were soldiers fighting on the Allied side, that they played their part in winning the the war for the Allies, and that they deserve special consideration as such?
His Majesty's Government are in no way seeking to avoid any obligations they have. We have accepted some obligations towards members of the Polish Forces fighting under British command, and I respectfully suggest that these other categories do not fit inside that condition.
Is there special consideration for Poles who do not desire to go back to Poland and will special consideration be given to those Poles who reached Germany as prisoners of war, so that they may not be treated as displaced persons?
The Government have recommended to the Social and Economic Council that the restoration of civil rights should be made available to displaced persons.
In view of the answers given by my hon. Friend, will he see to it that the entry into this country of Poles is limited to those who fought with us, and is not extended to those who fought against us?
My hon. Friend may rest assured on that point.
If influence is brought to bear on the Government to bring over all these extra Poles will my hon. Friend see that they are dumped into South Padding-ton and not sent to us?
My hon. Friend may be assured that as a Scotsman I shall take what steps I can to ensure that there is no unfair ratio.
Roads
Parking Places, West End
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is now able to arrange for the scheduling of West End streets to indicate where parking may or may not be permitted.
A list of the streets in the City of Westminster which have been scheduled for parking on the highway was circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT for 6th June. The City of Westminster has proposed that a further list of streets should be scheduled for parking on the highway, and these proposals will be considered by the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee. As regards "No Waiting" Orders, the City of Westminster can make proposals to the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee whose recommendation I will consider.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that, if possible, the notices are clearly displayed so that motorists know, in fact, where they can park their motor cars? In many streets, at the moment, parking is prohibited where motorists are under the impression that it is permitted.
Notices are certainly one of the aspects of this problem which are being considered from time to time.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the prewar regulation limiting the time during which parking may take place, namely, two hours, is not re-imposed?
Bus Services
asked the Minister of Transport whether he has any statement to make about the improvement of the omnibus service to and from the village of Stoke Hammond, Buckinghamshire, correspondence in connection with which has been sent to him.
My Regional Transport Commissioner has authorised the Eastern National Omnibus Company to provide a service of two return journeys on Tuesdays and Saturdays between Bletchley and Leighton Buzzard via Stoke Hammond.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are a great many other places which are very short of bus services, and will he bring pressure to bear on the bus companies to improve services to remote country villages?
I am certainly aware of that problem, but I feel that, on the whole, the extension of these services comes within the general problem of the expansion of transport. Nevertheless, I realise the urgency of this particular problem.
asked the Minister of Transport if he will authorise the Regional Transport Commissioners to permit the Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield Transport Board to stop their omnibuses six times to the mile instead of four as at present.
I am not satisfied that it would be desirable at present to alter the existing general rule in regard to stopping places. My Regional Transport Commissioners are, however, always ready to consider any representations made to them as to the desirability of an alteration being made in any particular case.
May I ask my right hon. Friend to consider what the increase in the number of stopping places per mile would mean to hundreds of factory workers, who, after a hard day's work, would be saved having to walk perhaps a quarter of a mile, often in the pouring rain? Will he consider the comfort of such people and authorise the Commissioners to review the matter?
Double Track Carriageways
asked the Minister of Transport how many miles of double track dual carriage way roads exist in Great Britain, exclusive of Northern Ireland, at the present time and where they are sited.
I regret that up-to-date information is not in my possession and as the inquiries I have started will take some time to complete, perhaps my hon. Friend will allow me to circulate a reply at a later date.
Stopping Places, London
asked the Minister of Transport how many principal and how many subsidiary stopping places are at present in existence for tramcars and omnibuses in the London area; and how many indicate the name of the stopping place by day or by night.
In the area served by the central buses, trams and trolley vehicles of the London Passenger Transport Board there are approximately 13,000 stopping places, of which 20 per cent. are compulsory and the remainder request stops. Before the war 350 of the signs at these stopping places indicated the place names. An unknown number of the name plates were removed during the war by local and other authorities for security reasons. The London Passenger Transport Board intend to increase the number of place names when materials are available. Illumination by night is adequately provided by street lighting.
Will my right hon. Friend consider indicating these place-names with notices of standard design that can be seen by the travelling public as they are boarding the trams and buses, otherwise they will not be of great value?
I will certainly draw the suggestion of my hon. Friend to the attention of the London Passenger Transport Board.
Government Cars (Marking)
asked the Minister of Transport if he will arrange that all motor cars used continuously by, or on behalf of, Government Departments should bear some distinguishing mark to indicate such use.
I have been asked to reply. Arrangements are under consideration for placing an appropriate distinguishing mark on all Government-owned cars, where this has not already been done.
Road Fund Reports
asked the Minister of Transport when the information ordinarily contained in the Road Fund Reports, which was omitted during the war years, will be published.
The Report for the year 1945–46, which is at present being compiled, will, so far as possible, contain information comparable to that published in prewar Reports, and will, in addition, provide as much information as is readily available in respect of the war years.
Accidents (Motor Insurers' Bureau)
asked the Minister of Transport whether the Insurers' Association for compensating the victims of uninsured motorists has now been set up.
Yes, Sir, and I am circulating a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I am also making available in the Vote Office copies of the Agreement with insurers which His Majesty's Stationery Office has published.
Following is the Statement:
As foreshadowed in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Mossley (Mr. Woods) on 12th November, 1945, a company called the "Motor Insurers' Bureau" has been formed and has entered into an agreement with me, in the manner provided by the original agreement with motor vehicle insurers on 31st December, 1945, to pay to third-party victims of road accidents caused by motor vehicles any damages awarded by the courts which they are unable to recover from motorists who have failed in their statutory obligations to insure, or whose policy is inoperative for some reason, such as breach of its conditions. This agreement has effect in respect of accidents occurring from today Also, as I mentioned in my previous statement, Crown policy will be suitably modified so that the same benefits in respect of compensation will be afforded to the victims of accidents involving uninsured Crown vehicles as they would receive from the Bureau were the accident caused by a private vehicle. These arrangements will prevent for the future those striking, if infrequent, cases of individual hardship which arise when the victim of a road accident, or his dependants are, by the failure of a negligent owner or driver to perform his legal duty to insure, deprived of the compensation which it is the object of the statute to guarantee. The insurance interests concerned in the negotiations which have made it possible to implement this project by voluntary undertakings rather than by complex legislation are to be congratulated on their ready spirit of cooperation. The Stationery Office has published the terms of my agreement which the Motor Insurers' Bureau in a document which also contains a description of the scheme, together with an indication of the steps to be taken by victims of road accidents, or their dependants, who are entitled to avail themselves of its benefits. Copies of the document are available in the Vote Office.
Shipping
Requisitioned Liners
asked the Minister of Transport the names of the passenger liners still held on requisition by his Department.
As the answer contains a list of names, I am circulating it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The names of ocean going passenger carrying ships still on requisition by the Ministry of Transport are given in the following list. The supplementary list refers to those ships at present undergoing reconversion prior to redelivery to owners:
Aba Highland Princess Alcantara Karapara Almanzora Karoa Amra Lancashire Andes Largs Bay Antenor Letitia Aquitania Llandovery Castle Arawa Llangibby Castle Aronda Llanstephan Castle Arundel Castle Maloja Ascania Mataroa Ascanius Mauretania Athlone Castle Monarch of Bermuda Britannic Mooltan Cameronia Moreton Bay Canton Nevasa Carnarvon Castle Orbita Carthage Orduna Cheshire Ormonde Chitral Orontes Cilicia Otranto Circassia Oxfordshire City of Canterbury Queen Mary City of Paris Queen of Bermuda Corfu Rajula Derbyshire Ranchi Devonshire Rangitata Dilwara Reina Del Pacifico Dominion Monarch Salween Dorsetshire Samaria Duchess of Bedford Scythia Dunera Somersetshire Dunnottar Castle Staffordshire Durban Castle Stirling Castle Egra Strathaird Ekma Strathmore Ellenga Strathnaver Empress of Australia Tairea Empress of Scotland Talma Epin Tamaroa Esperance Bay Varela Ethiopia Varsova Franconia Winchester Castle Highland Brigade Worcestershire Supplementary Aorangi Orion Capetown Castle Queen Elizabeth Duchess of Richmond Stratheden Highland Chieftain
Foreign Bunker Coal
asked the Minister of Transport what was the amount of coal purchased outside the United Kingdom for bunkering in the last six months; and how much of this purchase was in foreign currency.
I have no detailed record of purchases of bunker coal outside the United Kingdom, but it is estimated that, during this period, about 550,000 tons coal were purchased by British ships in U.S.A., Canada and the Panama canal zone at an approximately cost of 4 million dollars. Purchases in other non-sterling areas would be small.
Is the Minister aware that his reply to this Question is very grave? Am I to understand that we are now going to import coal, and is this the beginning of a nationalisation "touch"?
This is not a question of importing coal, it is a question of bunkering abroad.
Railways
L.M.S. Station, Derby (Modernisation)
asked the Minister of Transport if he will take steps to secure an early and drastic alteration to the Derby, L.M.S., Station, so as to provide reasonably sanitary conditions in the lavatories, to clean up the refreshment rooms and, generally, to modernise that station.
I am informed that plans for the modernisation of Derby L.M.S. Station, including the refreshment room and lavatories, have been prepared. Meanwhile, the two railbars have been redecorated during the last few weeks, the refreshment room on platform 1 is now being redecorated and the other refreshment room will be dealt with next. The lavatories are old, but pending reconstruction they are kept as clean and tidy as possible.
Is it not a fact that the only way in which one can discriminate between the lavatories and the restaurants in any station in this country is by the smell?
I would point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that if this is so, it has been during the years that the railways have been under private enterprise.
Sidcup-Blackfriars Service
asked the Minister of Transport if he is now in a position to state when the alternative S.R. service to Blackfriars and serving Sidcup, New Eltham and Mottingham, will be put into operation.
These services will be resumed as soon as possible after repairs to war damage to the signal box at Blackfriars can be completed. The Southern Railway hope to do this in August.
Is not my right hon. Friend aware that it was promised that this repair work would be completed in early July, and may I also ask him whether the services referred to by my hon. Friend with regard to Sidcup also apply to the Bexley Heath line?
I cannot answer the question of another hon. Member on that of my hon. Friend. I have given the latest information I have.
Factory, Dukinfield
asked the Minister of Transport if he is now able to make a statement on the future of the L.N.E.R. factory, Dukinfield.
I am not yet able to indicate the intentions of the railway company. Several developments are under consideration and it may be some little time before a decision is reached, but I am maintaining close touch with the company.
Will my right hon. Friend give particularly close attention to this matter, as some 1,800 persons are very anxious on the subject and have been waiting for a long time, and it is now six weeks since I drew his attention to the subject?
I have done so, but as there are a number of developments in which this is involved, it is not possible to reach an isolated decision.
London—North Wales
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction which prevails regarding the unsatisfactory railway passenger service between London and North Wales holiday centres, particularly those places situated in Snowdonia; and whether he will take immediate steps to increase the number of through trains, thus reducing the present discomfort and inconvenience to members of the public desiring to visit that district.
asked the Minister of Transport if he will take steps to improve the railway passenger service between London and North Wales.
The railway companies state that the service compares favourably with that in operation prewar except on Saturdays If traffic is heavy on any particular day, relief trains will be run so far as resources permit. It is not at present possible to reinstate through carriages to Pwllheli, Criccieth and Portmadoc but this will be considered as soon as circumstances permit.
While making all the necessary allowances for the Minister's pronunciation, may I ask him if he is aware that the services to this part of Snowdonia compare very unfavourably indeed with the services to other holiday centres in various parts of Great Britain, and that this is proving a very severe handicap to holiday centres in North Wales?
With regard to my pronunciation, I would like to inform my hon. Friend that I confirmed it with a Yorkshireman and a Lancashireman. The question of insufficient services, as I indicated, will be considered when there are greater resources available.
Is the Minister aware that before the war journeys took five hours and now take seven hours, and when the railways are nationalised will he consider the desirability of setting up a Welsh railway board so that it may take over the services?
Ministry of Supply
Iron Foundry Industry
asked the Minister of Supply what is the present capacity of the foundry industry as compared with 1939 and 1943, respectively.
The present potential capacity of the iron foundry industry is 3,500,000 tons a year, compared with 3,400,000 tons in 1939 and 3,200,000 tons in 1943. Owing to shortage of labour, actual present production is at the rate of 2,300,000 tons a year. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and I are doing everything possible to increase the labour force.
In view of the serious state of affairs disclosed by that answer, will the Minister tell us what are the man hours today compared with 1939?
I am afraid I have not the figures with me.
Steel Reinforcing Rods
asked the Minister of Supply why there is an eight to ten weeks' delay in the delivery of mild steel reinforcing rods; what tonnage, since July, 1945, has been exported to Palestine; what allocated to U.N.R.R.A. and to other countries; and what has been promised for export for the next six months and to which countries.
The increasing demand for these rods, coupled with a shortage of billets, has led to some delay in deliveries. Detailed figures of exports of these rods separately by country of destination are not readily available, but total deliveries by makers for export from July, 1945, to 7th May, 1946, were about 75,000 tons, of which 1,000 tons were allocated to U.N.R.R.A. Steps have already been taken to curtail exports in order to improve supplies to home consumers.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these rods are necessary for prefabricated houses, that there are hundreds of tons available for delivery within three days, and that the users simply cannot get permits?
If the hon. Gentleman would send particulars of these cases, I would be pleased to look into them.
rose —
Dr. Segal.
On a point of Order. This is very important. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware—
I thought that the hon. Member was going to raise a point of Order.
It is a question of victimisation.
Motor Industry
asked the Minister of Supply how he proposes to counteract the present inflationary tendencies in the motor manufacturing industry.
I am assured that the recent increases of motor car prices are less than is necessary to take full account of the increases in cost which the motor manufacturers have to bear.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when prospective purchasers of motor cars can hope for a fall in the prices of cars, and whether he proposes that there should be an attempt made on the part of the Government to control profits of motor car manufacturers in the interests of the public?
I cannot answer the first part of the question. With regard to the second part of the question, I have just stated that the increased prices are less than the increased costs.
Will the right hon. Gentleman call his hon. Friend's attention to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there is no such thing as inflation?
Does not my right hon. Friend recognise in this question a gross reflection on a famous Irishman, Mr. John Boyd Dunlop?
Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the motor car manufacturers have looked into every possible detail for improving their efficiency in order to reduce their costs? We on this side of the House do not think they have.
A great deal is being done. We have set up the Motor Council.
Factory, Renfrewshire (Use)
asked the Minister of Supply what was the total cost of building and equipping the factory at Linwood Road, Renfrewshire; and what is the intention with regard to its future use.
The total cost of this factory, which was built for the production of guns and on which building work started in 1940, was approximately £4,500,000, of which about £600,000 was for land and buildings. We are endeavouring to find a productive use for the factory.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that at present steel is being produced in this factory, and only about one-fifth of the entire space is being used? This factory, I presume my right hon. Friend knows, was specially equipped for a particular kind of production. Is it the Government's intention to go in for that type of production and carry on the making of rolling stock wheels and axles for which the factory was designed?
The open hearth furnaces are being used. It is the heavy presses and forging shops which are not being used, and we are actively engaged in pursuing a project which we believe will result in the use of the rest of the factory.
Is the Minister aware that this is one of the most modern and best equipped factories in the country, and will he see that the fullest possible use is made of it?
It is equipped for special purposes, but I will do all I can to get it used.
Lead (Stocks)
asked the Minister of Supply if he is aware that the stock of refined lead had dropped from 65,300 tons in December. 1945, to 44,600 tons in March, 1946; and what further steps he is taking to improve the situation.
Yes, Sir. In the present acute world shortage of lead, it is necessary to run down stocks. A comprehensive rationing scheme is in force and every effort is being made to obtain for this country its full share of the available supplies of lead. In the meantime, the maximum use must be made of substitute materials.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that building operations are being impeded by the lack of lead in this country, and that he gave similar assurances to this House in December last? What positive steps are being taken to increase the supply of lead?
We cannot increase the supply of lead. We can only get our share of the world's supply of lead, which we are doing, and to mitigate the effects upon building operations, we are urging and securing a very wide use of substitute materials.
Who decides our share of the world's supply? Is it some international authority, or does it rest with the Government?
We are buying lead in association with the Americans, who are the other largest buyers, and we are satisfied that by that cooperation we get the best supplies possible.
It not that quite a different answer? The right hon. Gentleman referred to getting our allocation or ration of lead. Is he suggesting that there is some international authority which rations these materials?
What machinery exists for the allocation of lead?
In view of the doubt which exists as to whether the world supply of lead is being brought up to the highest level, what steps are taken by the Government to increase the supply of lead?
That is another question.
The right hon. Gentleman said that steps were being taken for us to get our share. What method is being adopted for this purpose?
We are buying lead in the ordinary way, and so are the Americans. We are working with them in securing a reasonable allocation of the supplies of lead when available. We are satisfied that to abandon that practice and to go into sheer competitive buying would not improve our position.
What does "allocation" mean? Surely, it means that somebody does some allocating. Who does the allocating?
What does the Minister mean when he says "We are buying lead in the ordinary way"? What does "ordinary way" mean?
Questions
Justices of the Peace (Royal Commission)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will add to the terms of reference of the Royal Commission on Justices of the Peace the question whether a Member of Parliament should sit as a magistrate in his own constituency.
I do not think it is necessary to add to the terms of reference of the Royal Commission the specific question mentioned by the hon. Member. The Commission's terms of reference are very wide, and although, of course, it is for the Commission itself to interpret them, I will take steps to bring the point raised in the hon. Member's Question to the notice of the Chairman.
Is there any objection to hon. Members fulfilling some of the other functions, not on the bench, such as witnessing and signing documents in their own constituency?
That is an entirely different question.
Wireless Licences (Old Age Pensioners)
asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered a resolution from the National Federation of Old Age Pensions Associations asking that old age pensioners should be exempt from paying the increase in the cost of wireless licences; and what action he proposes to take.
I have been asked to reply. For the reasons which I gave in reply to Questions by the hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay) and others on 5th February, 1946, the Government regret that they are unable to give preferential treatment in this respect to old age pensioners.
Could not my right hon. Friend, even at this late hour, reconsider this, and do something for these old people, for whom the wireless means so much, and in whose budgets 10s. amounts to such a great deal?
The Government are doing something for these old people by increasing the old age pension. As I said earlier, I had a whole list of requests for preference, from old age pensioners, widows in receipt of pensions, people of small means and poor persons, disabled ex-Servicemen, people in rural districts and sick persons. The Government feel that if we start on the road of a sort of inverted means test we shall get involved in a very difficult administrative situation.
Could not the Government do what they do for the owners of motor cars, namely, enable them to obtain the licence at quarterly intervals on payment of a small percentage in addition for administrative costs?
That point was sympathetically considered, and there is no difficulty in that regard; there are plenty of facilities in the Post Office for easy payments.
Could not the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the decision to raise the cost of licences?
No, Sir, otherwise the whole thing would deteriorate.
Germany
Mrs. William Joyce (Internment)
asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what charges are to be preferred against the widow of William Joyce; and whether, pending the investigation of such charges, he will make immediate arrangements for her to be detained in some place other than Germany.
Mrs. William Joyce is at present interned with other active Nazis whose final disposal is still under consideration. It is too early to say what charges will be preferred against her. I am not in a position to arrange for her detention outside Germany.
Can the hon. Gentleman think of any other place in the world where this woman could do as much harm as she could in the country in which she is at present; and does he not consider it is about time this particular account was considered settled?
Unfortunately, I am not in control of the rest of the world. The incarceration of dangerous Nazis in Germany must, I am afraid, be confined to Germany at the moment.
Displaced Persons Camps, Dusseldorf
asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he is aware that in the Displaced Persons Camp, 751 or 753, in Dusseldorf, Germany, there is a Swedish national; and why this Swede has not been repatriated to his own country.
I am not aware that there are any Swedish nationals at present in either of these camps.
Displaced Poles (Newspapers)
asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster why it is necessary to obtain the approval of the Provisional Government in Warsaw before newspapers can be distributed to Polish displaced persons in the British zone in Germany; and why all newspapers published in Great Britain, France and Belgium are banned unless they are approved by the embassies of the Warsaw Provisional Government.
The British authorities are responsible for deciding whether a newspaper may or may not be distributed to Polish displaced persons in the British zone in Germany. Their decisions are, of course, not subject to the approval of the Warsaw Government.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that all the newspapers published in Poland by the legitimate and authorised parties of the Opposition are banned, whereas the papers supporting the Provisional Government are allowed free access to these camps? Is that fair play?
I am not aware whether it is a fact or not.
It is a fact
As I have stated, we do not consult the Polish Government, nor do we ask their permission what newspapers shall be circulated in the camps.
Can the hon. Gentleman say why it is we are imposing a censorship on the reading matter of these displaced persons?
There is no general censorship on the reading matter of these displaced persons. I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to recognise that a vast amount of very contentious propaganda literature is being circulated, and attempts are being made to bring this type of propaganda into these displaced persons' camps, where we are already meeting with very great difficulties. On occasions it is felt necessary to restrict the circulation and the issue of such literature in the camps. Generally speaking, there is no censorship, and newspapers are allowed to circulate freely. We certainly do not depend upon the authority of the Polish Warsaw Government for Polish newspapers.
Why is it that all the Polish newspapers published in Canada are banned? Is it part of the policy to ban newspapers published in one of the British Dominions?
If any Polish newspapers are banned in Canada—
They are not banned in Canada. They are banned in the camps.
I can only say I do not know how many newspapers are involved in this allegation. I know of only one Polish newspaper which was refused circulation in one of our camps. There is no general ban upon Polish newspapers, or newspapers of any other kind.
In view of the terms of the first supplementary question, would my hon. Friend make it clear that, so far as His Majesty's Government are concerned, there is only one legitimate Government in Poland, and that that is the Government in Warsaw?
That is not involved in the question: the question of the recognition or otherwise of one Government or another is not involved. It is a question of newspapers from particular sources. I can only repeat, there is no general ban.
rose —
This is a very hot day, and this is only making it hotter.
Agriculture
Silage (Mobile Teams)
asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps he is taking to organise mobile teams with the necessary equipment to assist small dairy farmers in making high quality silage.
I am examining the practicability of introducing a scheme on the lines which the hon. Member has in mind.
Has the Minister noticed that the weeks are passing; and is he aware that unless something is done quickly about this he will not be able to do anything effective at all?
Yes, I am afraid I have noticed the passing of time.
Oil Seeds (Cultivation)
asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps he is taking to encourage the growing of oil seeds in Britain.
I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to a similar Question by the hon. and gallant Member for Salisbury (Major Morrison) on 24th June.
Will the Minister make arrangements next season so that we can grow and obtain an increasing supply of our own oil seeds, because at present we have only a piecemeal policy?
I do not think the hon. Gentleman can refer to it as a piecemeal policy, since for the year 1946 the price has been increased from £20 per ton delivered to £30 per ton at the farms. That is a matter of encouragement.
Are we getting any more grown?
Machinery (Exports)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the Government's appeals to farmers to grow more corn and produce, and as the Farm Machinery Order, 1946, has not released the ploughs and tractors required by farmers, he will curtail the further export of farm machinery which is urgently needed to increase production in this country for the consumers.
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply to the Question put by the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) on 26th June. Essential home requirements of ploughs and tractors are already receiving first priority.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we cannot obtain hay mowing machines today, and many farmers have to do their hay mowing with old and obsolete machines whilst so many thousands of machines are going out of this country, where they are needed so very badly; and that it is becoming increasingly clear that the Government are doing nothing whatever to help the farmers? It is very unsatisfactory indeed.
Unused Land (Grass)
asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps are being taken to make use of the maximum amount of hay growing on road verges, railway embankments and unused land requisitioned by Service Departments in order to augment feeding supplies for the winter during the shortage of animal feedingstuffs.
asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps have been taken to encourage local authorities and railway companies to preserve grass from verges of country roads and railway embankments; and what arrangements have been made for its collection and distribution.
I entirely agree that it is essential that as much grass as possible should be preserved this season, in order to increase our limited supplies of feeding-stuffs next winter. My Department is taking all practicable steps, by propaganda and through the agency of C.W.A.E.C.s, towards that end, where these would not conflict with the farmer's need for preserving his own grass to the maximum extent. An increased supply of either silage or dried grass, much as I wish to encourage it at this juncture, involves, however, the use of machinery and labour, both of which are in short supply. In general, therefore, special arrangements for the collection and preservation of grass from road verges or railway embankments must be confined to the surplus capacity of our limited machinery and labour resources on farms, where they could normally be more efficiently employed. As regards unused land requisitioned by Service Departments, arrangements already exist to ensure that wherever practicable any such land not suitable or available for arable cultivation is either grazed, or mown for hay, drying or silage.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a lot of grass on War Department land and land requisitioned by the War Department, and will he get into touch with the Ministry concerned?
I can assure the hon. Member that the war agricultural committees are making the best use of the labour available to them, both on railway embankments and elsewhere where grass exists.
Would the right hon. Gentleman consider making an appeal for part time volunteers for such work as gathering the grass on the roadside verges?
We are already making a strong appeal for volunteers for the harvest. I doubt very much if we could supplement that appeal with an appeal for workers for this purpose during this period of the year.
Could not the right hon. Gentleman ask the highway authorities to give some assistance in this matter?
The executive committees are already in touch with the highway authorities, who do actually lend their employees.
Could not prisoners of war be used for this particular Work?
Prisoners of war are actually used by county executive committees in those directions where they feel the maximum use can be made of the prisoners of war.
Is the Minister aware that in every other country in the world a very valuable crop is obtained from these verges, and is not it a considerable reflection on the Government if they cannot achieve the same?
If the hon. Gentleman takes into account the availability of machinery and labour in this country he will obviously see the limitation, and the limitation is in no way due to the present Government.
Sugar Beet Acreage, Norfolk
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will reconsider his decision to reduce the acreage of sugar beet in Norfolk in 1947 in view of the large areas of land that can be returned to agricultural use and the great importance of the by-products of this crop as animal feedingstuffs.
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Mr. Gooch) on 24th June, a copy of which I am sending to him.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that that necessarily involves a reduction of the acreage of sugar beet when, at the present time, we want more sugar and more by-products from the sugar for the cattle in the county of Norfolk; and is he further aware that a greater acreage is becoming available as the War Departments give up land?
As my hon. Friend is aware, the target set for 1947 is the same as that for 1945 and 1946. The only difference is that Norfolk, for the past two years, has actually exceeded its target. To the extent that they have exceeded their target, with the limited factory accommodation, other counties have had to go below their target, otherwise the factories would not be able to take all the sugar beet grown.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of the factories in Norfolk have been improved so that they have a greater through-put, and, therefore, they can deal with a greater quantity?
The hon. Member must be aware that we aim at the maximum through-put for all factories. If they have any further capacity, I shall be very happy to see that it is used.
Grass Mowers
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has considered the shortage of new grass cutters available to farmers in Norfolk; and whether he will state the number of new horse-drawn and tractor grass mowers manufactured in this country and delivered to farmers in Great Britain and the number exported.
I am aware that the supply of mowers generally is not sufficient to meet the demand in full. Everything possible has been done to secure maximum output, but production has recently been hampered by unexpected difficulties. In the eight months ended 31st May, 1946, the production of horse and tractor mowers was 4,968. Of these, 3,296 went to the home market and 1,672 to export. Very few tractor mowers have been exported during the last two or three months.
Prisoner-of-War Labour
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he has considered the letter addressed to him by Mr. P. H. Sparrow, a farmer, of Steeple, near Southminster, Essex, pointing out that 60 German prisoners of war are engaged in road widening at Mayland within a short distance of some 50 acres of good corn-growing land which, owing to shortage of labour, is covered in scrub and small trees; and if he will investigate the possibility of securing some or all of these men for agricultural work and so of increasing the 1947 harvest.
Yes, Sir. The decision of the Essex War Agricultural Executive Committee not to reclaim the parcel of land referred to is due, not to shortage of labour, but to the prohibitive cost. The supply of prisoners for agricultural work in the county is considered to be adequate, but further steps will be taken, if necessary.
Should any cost be regarded as prohibitive if the harvest for next year can, in fact, be increased?
If one has to set aside for an area of this description four times as much labour as would be necessary for a similar area, clearly it would be a waste of labour
Does not the Minister think that these men would be very much better employed improving this land rather than widening the roads?
When my right hon. Friend says "cost," does he mean cost in money or labour?
Cost in money, because the area referred to is full of very large trees, all of which would have to be got down before the land could be reclaimed.
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that the Northampton County W.A.E.C. has announced that it is unable to carry out further agricultural work by prisoner-of-war labour under contract and will only supply such labour on daily terms according to the number of hours worked; and if this policy is to become general throughout the country adding, as it inevitably will, to the costs of home production.
An announcement on the lines mentioned by my hon. Friend would not be in accordance with standing instructions to county war agricultural executive committees, and I am informed by the Northamptonshire Committee that no such announcement has been made.
Home Produced Wool
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, when the Government cease to requisition the wool crop, he will fix a guaranteed price for wool.
No decision has yet been reached as to the method of disposal of home produced wool in future years or as to the manner in which the Government will discharge its obligation to the home producer, to which I referred in my announcement on 18th February.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the very great importance of a decision being reached as rapidly as possible?
Yes. The hon. Member will be aware that a Committee has been sitting on this question, and the matter is now under active consideration.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman hasten the decision of the Committee, because farmers are most anxious to know what their position is to be?
I have already said that the matter is under consideration at the moment.
Feedingstuffs
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is now in a position to state what will be the supplementary allowance of coupons for feeding-stuffs available this winter to grass farmers who are unable to grow cereals or protein on their farms.
No, Sir. As already announced, all supplementary allowances next winter will be made from reserves allocated to county agricultural executive committees for distribution at their discretion. The extent to which any individual farmer or class of farmer can be assisted will depend on consideration of the needs of all farmers in the county who apply for assistance from these limited reserves.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his reply will cause great dissatisfaction, because it will make a bad decision a thousand times worse in that the small grass farmers will not know what on earth they can do in order to feed their cows during the coming winter period?
The hon. and gallant Member must be aware that the only source from which assistance can be given to that type of farmer is the discretionary reserve made available to county executive committees, and until the county executive committees know exactly what calls are likely to be made upon them, it would be difficult in advance to declare exactly what the ration should be.
Can the Minister tell the House whether the discretionary reserves this year will be the same as they were last year?
I am very doubtful about that.
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will continue the old allocation of rations to limbless ex-Servicemen who took up poultry keeping after the 1914–18 war as a means of a livelihood, as otherwise these men will be put out of business and unemployed, being incapable, owing to infirmity, of doing any other work.
No, Sir. I regret that the supplies of feedingstuffs available will not permit of any exception being made on hardship grounds such as in the cases mentioned. I cannot accept the implication of the last part of the Question since the rations available will be on the same scale as that which operated during the worst period of the war, when these men managed to remain in business.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that his reply will cause great anxiety to these unfortunate men, and further does he understand the serious plight of the men referred to if they are forced out of business?
Of course, we all regret the shortage of feedingstuffs and we should be very happy to be able to increase them, not only to infirm persons but to all food producers in the country. Unfortunately, the rations are not available; everything we have is being used to the best possible advantage. As these unfortunate persons were able to carry on in 1943 when the rations were equally low, I am very hopeful that they will be able to carry on in 1946, too.
Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer mean that he will not lift a finger to help these men?
The hon. Member must assume nothing of the kind. Anything that can be done is being done to help all sections of the community.
The Government are doing nothing.
Livestock (Feedingstuffs)
asked the Minister of Agriculture in view of the proposed reduction in animal feedingstuffs, what steps are being taken to ensure that farmers will not endeavour to maintain more animals than they can feed with due regard for humanitarian considerations.
I hope that farmers will adopt a more severe culling policy than usual, not merely for the considerations referred to by the hon. and gallant Member, but because they will by this means secure the maximum output of milk, meat and eggs from the limited supplies of feedingstuffs available next winter. I am now considering, in collaboration with my right hon. Friends the Minister of Food and the Secretary of State for Scotland, what positive encouragement can be given towards this objective.
Wheat Production
asked the Minister of Agriculture if, in view of the necessity to increase our wheat production during the next two years and the important part which the adequacy of any new wheat prices may play in this respect, he will submit any proposals which may be tentatively agreed upon by the representatives of the farmers and himself for the consideration of Members of this House before they are finally decided upon.
No, Sir. The fixation of prices of wheat and other agricultural products must be the sole responsibility of His Majesty's Ministers. There are obvious objections to making public proposals for adjustments of prices before decisions are reached.
Questions
Dominions (Polish Resettlement)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if he will consult the Dominions with a view to making provision in the Dominions for resettling those Poles who do not wish to return to Poland.
This matter has been taken up with the Dominion authorities and is still under discussion. I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
Does the hon. Gentleman realise that our rights and duties in regard to our Polish Allies should be shared by all our Allies in the recent war, particularly the Dominions, and that no more Poles should be sent to Scotland, where there are already too many?
I have nothing to add to my statement.
Australia (Immigration Schemes)
76 and 77.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (1) how many persons have registered for assisted passage to Australia under the Empire Settlement Acts since 5th March, 1946; and in how many cases has the Minister of Labour withheld his approval to the grant of such passages;
(2) how many persons have registered for a grant of free passage to Australia under the scheme announced on 5th March; and in how many of these cases has the Minister of Labour refused permission to leave employment in the United Kingdom.
As announced in the statement made by my predecessor on 5th March, the two schemes referred to do not come into operation until a date has been agreed between the two Governments. Meanwhile, a number of enquiries have been received in the Office of the High Commissioner for the Commonwealth of Australia and the local offices of the Ministry of Labour and National Service. No applications can yet be considered by the United Kingdom Government, and thus the question of an applicant's release from his present employment or of withholding approval for the grant of passage assistance does not arise.
What action are His Majesty's Government taking to hasten forward the date of the inception of the scheme?
I am afraid I cannot answer that question. I have given the information already, that the two Governments must examine the matter together, and that will be pursued.
In the case of people who are not now in employment, but who are being demobilised and want to come under this scheme, can my hon. Friend say, roughly, how long they are likely to have to wait?
I am afraid I cannot give an answer to that at present.
Palestine (Situation)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make concerning the attack by British troops upon the premises of the Jewish Agency and other places in Palestine and the detention by force of its executive members and more than a thousand other persons; under what international authority this step was taken and who will now perform the functions, which, by international law, devolve upon the Jewish Agency.
With the permission of the House I should like to make a full statement on the position in Palestine, in the course of which I will deal with the points put by my hon. Friend.
The House has been informed from time to time of acts of sabotage and terrorism in Palestine. In the face of these incidents the military and civil authorities have shown the greatest forbearance, and their action has hitherto been local or directed only against those immediately responsible for each particular incident. It has, however, become increasingly clear in recent months that these incidents form part of a concerted plan prepared and executed by highly developed military organisations with widespread ramifications throughout the country.
The Anglo-American Committee called special attention to the development of illegal armed forces as a sinister feature of recent years in Palestine. The largest of these is the Hagana, estimated to be about 70,000 strong, with a mobile striking force the Palmach, some 5,000 strong. This force has been developed on highly organised military lines and is armed with the most modern equipment. In addition there are two Jewish terrorist organisations—the Irgun Zvei Leumi, which is believed to have between 5,000 and 6,000 adherents trained in street fighting and sabotage, and the Stern Group which specialises in assassination. The Hagana have been responsible for many instances of destruction of property and armed resistance to the Government; the other two organisations have been responsible for numerous acts of violence and murder and for the recent kidnappings.
The Jewish Agency have been repeatedly warned, both by the High Commissioner and by His Majesty's Government, of the gravity of these developments and of the dangers to which they would lead. The Anglo-American Committee stated in their Report that such private armies constituted a danger to the peace of the world and ought not to exist, and they expressed the view that the Jewish Agency should at once resume active cooperation with the Mandatory Power. In my statement to the House on 1st May, I drew special attention to these passages in the Report and said that His Majesty's Government regarded it as essential that the Jewish Agency should take a positive part in the suppression of these illegal activities. In spite of these warnings the situation has not improved. On the contrary, there has recently been a recrudescence of terrorist activity. Within the past three weeks, sabotage of road and rail communications, including the blowing up of the principal bridges over the Jordan, has caused damage estimated at well over a quarter of a million pounds. On the night of 17th June the railway workshops at Haifa were seriously damaged by explosions and fire. The climax came on 18th June, when six British officers were kidnapped, and two others were seriously wounded. Three of those kidnapped are still held captive. These are the culminating events in a campaign of violence which since December has caused the death of 16 British soldiers and five police (including the seven soldiers murdered in cold blood at Tel Aviv on 25th April). The material damage has exceeded £4,000,000.
His Majesty's Government, as Mandatory, have an international duty to maintain law and order in Palestine and full authority to take all necessary steps to that end. It was clear that we could no longer tolerate this direct challenge to our authority without abdicating this duty. I know what deep sympathy there is for the sufferings of the Jews in Europe and I appreciate the natural intensity of the feelings of those who experienced the atrocities of the Hitler regime, including murder and the taking of hostages. But this cannot condone the adoption by Jews in Palestine of some of the very worst of the methods of their oppressors in Europe. Accordingly, after consultation with the civil and military authorities in Palestine, His Majesty's Government authorised the High Commissioner to take all necessary steps to restore order and to break up the illegal organisations, including the arrest of individuals believed to be responsible for the present campaign of violence. I am sorry to say that these included some of the leading members of the Jewish Agency. There is evidence of close connection between the Agency and the Hagana.
Action to this end was begun on 29th June. Certain buildings in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv were occupied, including the Jewish Agency's building in Jerusalem. Searches were also conducted in a number of Jewish settlements. The manner in which these measures were carried out reflects great credit on the military forces and the police, who showed the greatest restraint, often under conditions of great provocation. Throughout these extensive operations, according to the latest reports, three Jews were killed and 13 injured have been admitted to hospital. One British soldier was accidentally shot and killed. About 2,000 Jews have been detained for questioning. A number of these will, of course, be released when their examination has been completed, but I have not yet received particulars of the numbers who may already have been set free. A vast amount of arms, ammunition and explosives has already been found, the quantity of which has not yet been assessed.
These operations are not directed against the Jewish community as a whole, but solely against those who have taken an active part in the campaign of violence and those responsible for instigating and directing it. I may say, with reference to the last part of my hon. Friend's Question, that, although individual members of the Jewish Agency have been detained, it is not our intention to close or proscribe the Agency as such. I wish again to make it plain that His Majesty's Government will not tolerate any attempts by any party to influence a decision in the Palestine question by force. I appeal to all persons of good will in Palestine to cooperate with the authorities in rooting out these illegalities and restoring normal conditions of life. Meanwhile, these events will not distract us from our examination of the recommendations of the Anglo-American Committee. The House will remember that the first step taken was to ascertain the views of Jewish and Arab authorities on the Committee's Report. Following on this, arrangements were made for discussions with officials of the United States Government. We have done our utmost to expedite these. Some preliminary discussions were completed last week and we are hoping that a further body of American officials will arrive here in a few days, to complete the expert examination of the Report. We shall persevere in our attempts to arrive without delay at a just and lasting settlement of these problems. As was stated last week, it would be right to have a full discussion on the Palestine problem before the House rises for the Summer Recess. Meanwhile, I shall keep the House fully informed of the situation in Palestine.
Will my right hon. Friend say whether he proposes to publish the evidence which has led anybody to believe that the Jewish Agency has been responsible for acts the responsibility for which it has disclaimed? Will he say why it is that of all the recommendations of the Committee the only one which the British Government has adopted, in isolation from all the others, is the one which the Commission themselves advised them not to take in advance of the others?
The answer to the first question is, that when the full consideration of the documents has been made, the evidence will be published. On the second question, I would remind my hon. Friend that what has happened is not that the Government have taken action first, but a series of kidnappings and murders.
Do the tragic events of the past few days mean that there will be no implementation of the Anglo-American Committee's Report?
No, Sir. I said that we are considering that to the full. These events will not stop us going ahead with full consideration with our American friends of this very important Report.
Is the Prime Minister aware that we on this side of the House will support the Government in any action which the facts justify for the suppression of organised violence which no Government of any complexion could tolerate? With regard to the proposed publication of evidence, for which we are very grateful, would the Prime Minister see that this is treated as a matter of urgency, because, in view of the gravity of the situation, it is essential that the full facts should be known at the earliest possible moment?
Certainly, as soon as we can we will publish the full documents, but it must necessarily take some time as the right hon. Gentleman knows, because it involves the seizure of a number of documents.
In view of the statement by the High Commissioner on Saturday last that over a considerable period a campaign of vilification, incitement and threats of violence have not been confined to only one community, what steps do the Government propose to take to deal with the leaders of the Arab community?
I have stated that we will tolerate no violence from any party in this Palestinian question.
Was full consideration given to the fact that these arrests were carried out on the Jewish Sabbath?
May I associate myself with the right hon. Gentleman in saying that everyone abhors these acts of violence, and assure the Government that they will have the fullest support of everyone in maintaining law and order? Can the Prime Minister give an early date when all these matters can be discussed, as this is of great urgency and the sooner the House is fully informed the better?
I should like discussions to take place through the usual channels as to what would be a suitable time for discussion.
Can it be next week?
Perhaps that could be put to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.
Will the Prime Minister tell us whether he consulted the American Government on this matter?
The American Government were fully informed
Did he consult them?
No, Sir. The Government have to take responsibility for their own actions, and it would be quite unfair to try to put the onus on another Government.
May I ask a question which may seem pettifogging, but I hope the Prime Minister will think it is friendly and well intended? Is it not worth considering now the advice, which has sometimes been given in the past, that on these occasions the word "Zionist" should be used whenever it is accurate rather than the word "Jewish"?
I will certainly consider that point.
Will the Prime Minister tell us whether the Sabbath was deliberately chosen? Could they not have made the raid the day before or the day after the Jewish Sabbath?
This matter was left entirely to the local authorities.
In view of my right hon. Friend's statement just now that these matters of policy in Palestine are for the Mandatory Government alone and it would be unfair to bring anyone else into them, will he say whether he now proposes, without waiting for further discussion with the United States, to allow the 100,000 displaced persons to enter Palestine?
Certainly not. My hon. Friend will realise that this suggestion about the 100,000 came from the United States Government, and very properly we are associating with them in considering the possibility of that and its full consequences. I was referring to the fact that the Government, charged with preservation of law and order, must take that responsibility themselves.
Without prejudice to what may transpire after today, will the Prime Minister convey to the authorities in Palestine an expression of appreciation of the skill and humanitarianism with which the operations have so far been conducted?
It is obvious that there are many questions remaining unanswered. Therefore, I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the arrest and detention of the executive members of the Jewish Agency and other persons in Palestine, and the occupation by armed force of its premises and other places.
The pleasure of the House not having been signified, Mr. SPEAKER called on those Members who supported the Motion to rise in their places, and, not less than Forty Members having accordingly risen, the Motion stood over, under Standing Order No. 8, as amended by the Order of 12th April, until Seven o'Clock this evening.
Business of the House (Supply)
Ordered:
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 14, a Supplementary Estimate for a New Service may be considered in Committee of Supply."—[ Mr. Herbert Morrison. ]
Orders of the Day
Supply
[14th ALLOTTED DAY]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. HUBERT BEAUMONT in the Chair]
Civil Estimates, 1946
Class IV
Ministry of Education
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum not exceeding, £69,980,112 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1947, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Education and of the various establishments connected therewith including sundry grants in aid, grants in connection with physical training and recreation, and grants to approved associations for youth welfare." [NOTE.—£35,000,000 has been voted on account.
On a point of Order. I understand we are to discuss education on this Vote. Will it be in Order to discuss universities and the University Grants Committee?
It will not be in Order to do so. They come under a different Vote.
3.50 p.m.
For the first time, over £100 million is asked for on the Ministry of Education Vote. That is a large sum, but it is not the whole story. Further large sums for research, training grants and educational institutions, such as the universities, which the hon. Member for Elland (Mr. Cobb) has just mentioned, are borne on other Votes, including about £15 million for education in Scotland. In addition, I want to add to this general Vote a Supplementary Estimate, which, with your permission, Mr. Beaumont, it may be convenient to consider now, of £195,000 for the College of Aeronautics, for special training for disabled persons, and for our international work in U.N.E.S.C.O. This is a big Vote, but the important thing is: What we are going to do with it? Part of it will go to maintaining the efficiency of the educational service, part of it will go to the repair of war damage done to that service during the war—damage that is greater than many people realise, and damage which cannot be expressed only in bricks and mortar; the total bill will have to be paid for in more vital ways than money—and part will go to enable the necessary steps to be taken, but only the early steps, in the implementation of the 1944 Act, to which all parties are committed, and which sets us a task great in scope but greater still in its implications.
As the Government interpret the Act, that task means no less than the over haul of the entire system, of State education. Our aim is to provide equal opportunities for all children, based on the ability of the child, and irrespective of the means of the parent. That aim, after all, it may be said, and I think truly, applies only to the clever child—the child with ability and special gifts; but there is even nearer to my heart, anxious as I am to provide that the clever child shall not lose its opportunity because of the parents' lack of means—and how much great ability has been lost to the world in that way—the desire that all our children who are attending our primary schools shall have at least four years of sound secondary education, suited to their ability and aptitude, entirely free, which, by this Act, we now have the power to provide. Let us face the facts. These are not aims which can be achieved by the stroke of the pen. They mean a great deal of careful planning. They cannot be brought about by speeches or circulars or administrative memoranda alone. It is a big programme that needs careful, large-scale planning from the beginning. At the beginning—and, as fate willed it, I had to start nearly from the beginning—I had to decide on certain priorities; and once a decision on priorities is made it must be kept. The first problem I had to decide, because my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler) and my right hon. Friend the present Home Secretary left the "baby" almost as soon as they had brought it into the world—
It has not grown up.
Babies do not usually grow up in one year. That is what I am trying to say, but I will not carry the genealogical metaphor too far, in view of the exclusively male parentage of the Bill. But I had to consider whether we were going to advance on a broad front, which sounds all right, but which means in fact doing a little bit of everything and not much of anything, or whether to throw the whole weight of the Department behind a few but all important jobs. The Committee must remember that all this year, and next year too, we are working in a period of great demand on labour and materials for all kinds of urgent needs. Other Departments have claims on labour and materials as well as the Ministry of Education, and housing has an overriding priority. Moreover, we must remember that education is always a team job It needs careful planning with the local education authorities and the teachers' organisations. The supply of buildings must keep pace with the supply of teachers. The staffs of the Ministry of Education and the local education authorities must be increased so as not to create bottlenecks.
So, in the Department, we have drawn up a plan designed for 1946 and 1947 and moving into 1948. I would emphasise that this is not a scheme which we have "dreamed up" in Belgrave-square; this is part of a plan which we have discussed with the other partners in education. What is this plan?. It has two main objectives—two main priorities, I think, would be a better way of phrasing it. First, as the House already knows, preparing for the raising of the compulsory school leaving age to 15 on the 1st April next year. This is the first essential step on the road to secondary education for all, and it is largely a supply problem—supply of buildings and teachers. Secondly, to expand and improve the school meals service. We must do that if we are going to make the whole service free of charge in grant-aided primary and secondary schools within a reasonable time. At present, about 40 per cent. are taking these school meals, and we must increase that to 75 per cent. before we can make it a completely free service.
I emphasise that these are the two jobs into which, for the time being, and with all the other correlated group of jobs, we are throwing the main weight of the Department. That does not mean, of course, that these are the only jobs on which the Ministry are engaged with the local education authorities. As I have said, there are the repairs of war damage and the all important matter, which I will deal with in a moment, of Development Plans. There are improvements in further education arising out of the Percy Committee's Report on which we are taking steps; there are discussions going on, on the training of teachers, and on the vital question of examinations, and there are all the much smaller things, which I consider are quite important—the increase of visual aids such as the use of films and film strips and complete visual units, better facilities for handicapped children, nursery schools and, by no means least, U.N.E.S.C.O.
As I say, I want to emphasise the special priority that we have attached to those two main things, school meals and the raising of the school-leaving age. The time of this Debate has been so cut down that I will not give all the figures that I had intended to give with regard to these things, but I can just say that we are getting on very rapidly now with the extension of the school meals service. As regards the school-leaving age, as I have said, the full effect of this reform will not be felt until September, 1948, by which time an extra 390,000 children will want accommodation. That means that 13,000 additional teachers will be required—not 30,000 as given on the B.B.C.—and 5,000 class and practical rooms. Owing to the courtesy of the hon. Member for the English Universities (Mr. Lindsay), we had a comparatively long Debate on this on Friday when we went into details, and the Committee will excuse me if, in view of the shortage of time today, I do not give those figures now, unless, of course, someone wants them.
As regards classroom accommodation, I propose to give some later figures. We have now received complete or partial three year programmes from all but three of the 146 local education authorities, and we expect those three shortly. All except three—and those were only received a week ago—have been approved by the Ministry. They contain proposals for 4,400 class and practical rooms, and the Ministry of Works have now received instructions from the local education authorities to start work on 2,400 of these classrooms and practical rooms. The stage of letting contracts has begun. I am indebted to the local education authorities, and to the Ministry of Works for their cooperation in this matter. Though a start has been made, it is only by intensive effort on everybody's part that we can ensure that the classrooms will be ready in time. It has been a terrific job to get it really moving, because it was so different from the kind of thing to which the local education authorities were used. We had to do this really as a war operation. We had to get the advantages of speed and of prefabricated work by getting reasonably large orders before we began. At one time, it seemed that we were not going to get started, but I am glad to say that the authorities cooperated really well, and the whole scheme is moving. Of course, the momentum will increase.
The Committee, I hope, will realise that these two main priorities of the 1946 plan are likely to remain the two main objectives in the plans for 1947. Then, as 1948 comes, that particular piece of work will be done and out of the way. We shall have got through the bulk of our short-term programme. We should then make progress with some of the other main reforms in the 1944 Act, for which the planning has had to be worked out long before that year. I have said elsewhere that to put this Act as a whole into effect is really a job for a generation. It is no use thinking that it can be done in one year, or two. I should like to amplify this statement by looking beyond 1948 and trying to sketch the way in which I hope these reforms which we are starting, may develop. I cannot, obviously, be precise at this stage, but I should like to put the whole thing into perspective. I want to deal with this question as far as I can, on a basis of hard fact, rather than on a too optimistic estimate. By September, 1948, the compulsory school-leaving age will have been raised to 15. We shall then have provided four years of secondary education for all, an ideal which is so near to all our hearts. But do not let us make any mistake about it. It will have to be done in temporary buildings. It will mean, alas, that nearly one-third of the children over 11 will still be in all-age schools.
Shame!
Much as I regret the fact, it will be, very largely, the rural children who will suffer. We shall have made about 8,000 teachers available for that most necessary reform, without which true secondary education is impossible—a reduction in the size of classes. To call it secondary education without reducing the size of the classes would be a farce. I do not believe that there can be secondary education in classes in which there are 40 to 45 children, or even more. We have started on that, and we have gone a good way, but it will be patchy over the country. The main thing is that we must consolidate that advance to 15 before we start going any further. I say that, because we must not let the children suffer on account of what I might call prestige. The important thing is to see that the job we do for the children is as sound as we can make it, while we are doing it.
I come now to what will be the most urgent jobs as soon as we get this temporary one out of the way, and that is to put into effect the development plans. We have had to give some extension of time to the local authorities for submitting their Development Plans, because we have had to press them so hard on the raising of the school age and the development of school meals. Apart from the urgent replacement of inefficient and insanitary buildings—and I sometimes think people do not realise how many insanitary buildings there are—there are other things to be done. I know teachers realise how many buildings are inefficient and insanitary because they are the people who do the work in them. But people outside, think that because we have passed a perfectly good Act, therefore, everything in the garden is lovely, and that the Act having been passed everything has been brought up to it. We have a terrific job to do in the clearing out of the insanitary buildings and the erection of new schools on the new housing estates, a scheme which the Minister of Health is very much alive to helping wherever he can.
The second urgent job will be to press on with the county colleges. This is a most important reform, because it will help to establish the idea that the period up to 18 will be the time for education whether that education takes place in the school, or partly at the county college and partly at work. The third urgent job—and I am not thinking of these in terms of priority for they are all equal —will be the building of a number of major colleges of further education. That is going to be very expensive but that does not worry me at all. What does worry me is that it is going to be expensive in essential materials. They are essential if we are to train our young men and women to keep this country up to date in applied science, technology, and commerce. I do not mean that we shall wait for our extension of further education until we can get these large new buildings. Accommodation is already being improvised, but much of it is already overcrowded and there are many who are clamouring to get in.
As I say, these jobs, coupled with the supply of teachers required for them, are likely to be our main tasks from 1948 onwards. While I cannot give any exact forecast of how much money they will cost, and their size, I can say that, taken together, they will involve a capital expenditure of the order of several hundred million pounds. That is a huge job, especially when you take into account that before the war the largest programme of capital expenditure which was put through by local education authorities in one year cost £16 million. We must put our thinking about education on an entirely different scale of expenditure from anything which we have known hitherto, because it will be the best investment we could make.
I cannot give an estimate of the dates any more than I can give an exact estimate of the cost, but we shall have to strike a balance between these needs, and make up our minds how much of the available resources we must allocate to each as we go along. These tasks will emerge as our main jobs as soon as the temporary programme is over. At that stage, they will require action, and that means that planning must be done beforehand, now. So, while we are engaged, for the present, on the temporary programme, the urgent job, I am hoping that in 1948 we can switch on to the permanent buildings with an all-out effort both of money and material.
The right hon. Lady has mentioned the necessity for seeing that new buildings are suitable from the point of view of space and sanitation. I hope she will not overlook what is also very important from the point of view of both pupil and teacher, namely, sound insulation. It is possible to build new schools which are otherwise very good, but in which there is so much reverberation in the classrooms that teaching is virtually impossible.
I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that that matter is very much in our minds. We have been having conversations with the Ministry of Works, whose Parliamentary Secretary has given his personal attention to the matter, and who has set going some high grade research into what I might call permanent light construction buildings. That point and others will be borne in mind. We are hoping to take advantage of modern methods of mass production, and at the same time not to sacrifice amenities and beauties. We want to get, if we can, a really beautiful functional building which we could put together to suit a particular job. Some of the most alert brains in the country at this particular kind of work are engaged upon the task, and I am hoping to open an experimental school on these lines shortly. I hope Members of the Committee who are interested will look at it, and give us their opinion.
May I take the Committee back to 1946, and deal with what seems to me to be the main problem in front of us, namely, the whole future of secondary education? I regard it as fundamental that whatever kind of secondary education we provide the equipment, premises and staffing, including the size of classes, must be equal. I hope I shall not bore the Committee by continually underlining the point about size of classes, but, as a practical teacher myself, I believe it is the one thing which is absolutely essential. No one knows better than those who have worked in schools how far this is from being the case at the present time. That is the Government's aim, and the fulfilment of it depends on the working out of the development plans.
I shall probably enter into a more controversial field when I say that secondary education does not and should not mean grammar school education for all Before the passing of the 1944 Act, parents whose children were bright enough to pass the qualifying tests for secondary education, or who were prepared to pay the fees naturally sent them to grammar schools—and I use the word "grammar" as a generic term—because not only were they good schools, but they provided practically the only kind of secondary education that was available. On this point some of my hon. Friends disagree with the impression given in the pamphlet, "The Nation's Schools." I share their point of view, but I must say that it is not a progressive, but a retrograde, step to say that the only alternative is identical secondary education for all.
Nobody said that
I hate to quote one of my hon. Friends, but at a meeting at which some of us attended the common school of Scotland was held up as an ideal we ought to follow in England. I want to emphasise that we want to educate children according to their ability and aptitude. I have laid that down as an aim to be borne in mind. At the beginning of this great experiment nobody is in a position to be dogmatic. Various experiments have been made, some are being made now, some have been successful enough to make it worth while to try them on a larger scale, and others have been barely tried at all. I want to underline that I do not accept any idea that there ought to be different grades of secondary education. Differences in approach or bias, yes—and I gather from the murmurs of approval which I hear on this side of the Committee that that is agreed—but difference in grades, no.
Let us consider what are the alternatives. The grammar school is well known, and it will have a vital part to play in our national life. At present it attracts pupils, many because they are thoroughly suited to the education which it provides, and others because it is thought to be a superior sort of school. Many in this second group would be better off in a different sort of secondary school if—and the "if" should be underlined—one existed. But in many areas today other secondary schools exist only in name, and until they are brought up to date and have developed into true secondary schools, in parents' minds—whatever may be in our minds—it will seem as though the only form of secondary education is grammar school education. I am glad to say that already different sorts of secondary schools do exist in certain areas, and I have found areas in which parents, recognising the value of the new technical and modern secondary schools, are sending their children to them in preference to the grammar schools. I believe that a great deal of misunderstanding in parents' minds about secondary education will disappear when they themselves can see some of the new kinds in actual working order.
What do I mean by new kinds? First, there is the secondary technical school. The junior technical schools have already shown us what interest and enthusiasm can be aroused when one gives children things to do which they really enjoy doing. I believe there is a great future for the secondary technical schools. I want, however, to make it clear that at the Ministry we have no intention of looking on these junior technical schools as vocational trade schools, as they have far too often become in the past. What we are aiming at is a good secondary education with a scientific or technical bias.
Next, there are the modern schools. These are growing out of the experiences of the senior schools. As I have said to a good many conferences of local education authorities which I have addressed, one cannot make a senior elementary school into a modern secondary school by sending a corporation workman along to paint out the words "senior elementary" and put in the words "modern secondary." Premises and staff have to be made not only adequate, but equal to anything given to the other forms of secondary schools, and the curriculum has to be planned as a secondary course. There are some fascinating experiments going on in this direction, and I am noticing with some interest the reports of His Majesty's inspectors that come before me showing what high grade work is being done in art and music, in English and in biology, by the pupils of the modern secondary schools. But I agree that at present the possibilities of technical and modern schools are too little known, and I intend to bring them into the limelight, and to that end I am arranging for pamphlets to be published about them. I hope that they will encourage parents particularly to go and see the good ones in action.
These are not the only possibilities. We are apt to live a kind of hurried existence in which we tend to use shorthand terms. Because we have talked about three types, I do not want that to be crystallised into saying that there are only three types of secondary schools. We must take into account other possibilities—the multilateral or the bilateral schools. I welcome experiments of this kind and on these lines. They have some great attractions. They mix all the children together in the corporate life of one community, and in the interim stage, they avoid snobbish distinction between schools of supposedly different grades, although I am anxious to abolish that in any case. It is true that they make it easier for children to switch from one kind of course to another, which is useful when the change is made at 11 plus, but there is really no reason why children should not now, if necessary, switch from one school to another.
With regard to making the change at 11 plus, I want to emphasise, as a practical point, that it is easy to make a theoretical case and to say that one cannot decide what a child is going to be at 11 plus. Of course one cannot, but nobody will say that the children who go into these particular forms of schools will run on any rigid tramlines when they leave those schools. They have not run on rigid tramlines when they have left the elementary schools. The point is that we want to give our children a good four years' course of secondary education, and while the compulsory leaving age is 15 years, to get those four years in the change must be at 11. However, I want to get out of the heads of teachers and local education authorities any idea of any rigidity in this matter. Children change between schools now, and they will continue to do so.
But I must add that there are certain potential difficulties about multilateral and bilateral schools, and I hope that in preparing any proposals on these lines, the local education authorities will think out some of the practical problems involved. I want to make it clear that there is no antagonism in my mind to the idea of multilateral and bilateral schools as such, nor is there any antagonism in the mind of the Ministry; but I do want to see that the proposals are properly worked out. After all, we do not want the schools to become unreasonably large.
There is one guiding aim which I have constantly in mind. The educational system in this country has been unbalanced. No one can deny that. We have not made the best use of our available talent. We have wasted talent because financial obstacles have stood in the way. My aim has been to see that no child shall be debarred through lack of means from taking a course of education for which he or she is qualified after leaving school. That is why we have pressed on with the administration of grants under the Further Education and Training scheme. So far, 7,000 awards have been made. The revised regulations for teachers' training colleges were issued in February of this year, under which students will no longer have to pay any fees in respect of tuition, and their contribution to boarding expenses has been revised. The new arrangements which have been made for State scholarships were announced by me this year. I am aware that this is to be a very truncated Debate, and I have no desire to occupy more than my share of what is, unfortunately, to be a very crammed discussion. I cannot deal with the other fascinating subjects with which I should like to deal. I have tried to give the Committee a general sketch of the main job as I see it, and the things to which I give the greatest priority.
I can see that on these lines we have the possibility of achieving, within a reasonable time, a really educated democracy. There is plenty of talent, and very different kinds of talent, and it is my aim to see that so far as education is concerned we use it to the best possible advantage.
4.31 p.m.
I am sure we all welcome the opportunity of reviewing the progress made under the Act. I thought it would suit the convenience of the Committee if I encouraged the right hon. Lady the Minister to start in this Debate and make her own statement about the progress she is achieving, rather than that I should put a series of questions which might give an altogether wrong impression about our general desire to press forward the immense work upon which the right hon. Lady is engaged. I have been very glad to hear her report; we were obliged to leave her the baby when it was very young, and while she may not be exactly the foster mother I might have chosen, and while the home is not exactly the one I might have chosen, I can at least say that the child is in a "nice home" and I only hope that it will be brought up sensibly. It is very difficult to get parents to talk about their own children and even more difficult to get them to congratulate those who are looking after them, so I am sure the Committee will be sympathetic with me today in the task I have to perform. I am deeply interested in this subject and feel very much for the progress of the Act. Any remark I make will be designed to be constructive and to carry forward the really immense and alarming task which confronts the Government and the nation at the present time.
When one looks back on what was achieved in the last Parliament, I think it will really make one anxious that this Parliament as well should have a great achievement to its credit in the field of education. Heaven knows, one tried to do enough; there was the Act passed, with all its religious and local government settlements, two matters which had quite baffled Governments that had tried to tackle them before; there were the various reports on some of which the right hon. Lady is acting, and some of which come into our discussion today on these Estimates. They were the McNair Report on Teacher Training, the Norwood Report on Secondary Education Curriculum and Examinations, upon which we have seen a pronouncement by the Minister, the Percy Report, which I appointed, on Technical Education, on which we have also seen the Minister take action, the Foundation for U.N.E.S.C.O., which is included in the Supplementary Estimates and upon which I wish the right hon. Lady well but which I will not discuss at length today. The Foundation of the Aeronautical College is also included in this Supplementary Estimate, and—a matter to which my hon. Friend the Member for the English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) referred on Friday—the immense wartime achievements of the technical colleges about which we used not to talk—we thought it was not right—in training radar and other specialists to carry on with the war. The colleges also did production work.
If any hon. Member feels critical in this Debate about the extent of the legacy left to the Minister, he might at least think that it is a legacy full of promise and one which we sincerely hope she will be able to make the best of. There is no doubt that there are many difficulties; I was fully aware of them, and I wondered whether it was right to try to pass the Act in wartime, but I am convinced that we could not have done otherwise than we did. Had we not taken that opportunity in wartime to pass the Act, I am convinced that, the religious settlement particularly could not have been passed without the aid of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, since it would have been impossible for me to make all the necessary contacts and carry out this matter.
I hope, therefore, that we can enter on the discussion today with proper modesty on all sides. I certainly feel the deficiencies of the scheme and I certainly feel the difficulties which have been bequeathed. I think that in that spirit English and Welsh education may make a really great step forward in our generation and that we may all go forward together. The Minister said that the Government were concentrating on every kind of urgent need, but she cannot expect me to be quite so agreeable in dealing with the general activities of the Government. My main anxiety is that the Government are not concentrating enough upon implementing the Education Act in view of their resources and not helping the Minister, the Parliamentary Secretary, and her hard worked Department by a greater concentration of Government energy on the job. I believe the Government are dissipating their energies. The right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council was very critical of Lord Woolton the other day and said that he had left a certain number of White Papers. We can at least see that as the result of the Reconstruction Committee under the late Government we did leave certain plans to carry out. If I may say so Governments are not judged by what they collect by way of panoply or by way of the passage of legislation through the House, but by their nation building work.
I hope, therefore, that this Debate may be useful in concentrating a little more of the Government's energies upon this nation building task of education and a little more priorities for the right hon. Lady from her right hon. Friend the Minister of Works, who himself is a very keen educationist. The Lord President reminds me of the White Knight—the right hon. Lady has often been referred to as the Red Queen—because he is ever busy piling on to his defenceless horse every sort of encumbrance, the nationnalisation of this, the nationalisation of that, a bee hive here and a mousetrap there. If the right hon. Lady remembers her "Alice Through the Looking Glass," she will know that the most remarkable of the impedimenta of the White Knight was the upside down sandwich box,
From this rather colourful language may I come to the hard, dry bones of the Estimates themselves? Today we have a memorandum on the Estimates for 1946, Cmd. 6781. It is remarkable to note on page 9 the extraordinary increases in the amounts being asked from the taxpayer and the ratepayer for education, for which I am afraid I must accept a large measure of responsibility. In 1938 the figure for grants to the local education authorities, for example, £45 million, and it is now, in 1946, £92 million, an increase of 102.5 per" cent. The increases for grants to persons other than education authorities have gone up by 164.1 per cent., an immense rise in those eight years; and the figures for scholarships and maintenance allowances have gone up by 1,384.5 per cent. That is all to the credit of the Minister and is a policy which I would always myself have been very ready to carry out as the consequence of the development of the carious reports and the intention to make access to the universities easy. I would only say in passing—because we must take in all these matters as they go by—that I hope that in addition to these scholarships the right hon. Lady is paying proper attention to this expression "maintenance allowances," because it is often very difficult for students who feel that they have sufficient money to go to the university to live there, and once they get there are without the requisite maintenance allowances. I understand that it is the Minister's policy to provide maintenance grants in a generous manner.
It is interesting to note that the ratio of Exchequer contributions to rate contributions is as between about £105 million and £67 million, and that whereas the Exchequer contribution has gone up by 107 per cent. that from the rates has gone up by only 40 per cent. That to some extent is a justification of the policy the Ministry has hitherto pursued in the general grant formula, which is the most intricate part of the work of administering education. I have been watching the effect of the grant formula, as laid down in the Financial Memorandum, and followed up by the conditional grant for the poorer areas at the time of the passage of the Education Act. I am rather sorry that it appears, despite all our efforts, that the incidence of the extra cost is falling on the public in the rateable areas before they see the results of the Education Act. This is unfortunate, because it makes a wrong psychological impression. It was not intended by us when we framed the curve, which was very carefully done with the aid of the advice that one could get. It is a matter which I should like to draw to the attention of the Government with a view possibly to the Government's considering the matter and slightly adjusting the curve so that the reception of benefits may march along with the putting of the hand into the pocket. The citizen will then feel more sympathetic towards educational reforms than he does in some districts at the present time.
The education grant formula of 40 per cent. in the richer areas and of 68 per cent., with an addition, in the poorer areas, does need reconsideration, and, as the Minister said in her speech at the Association of Education Committees, when the Chancellor revises the grant formula he should consider making a wider scope, from something which is near to 80 per cent. in the richer areas and something higher in the poorer areas. There is the undoubted fact that, taking the rating system as we know it, the poorer areas are finding it increasingly difficult to administer the Act at the present time. I hope that the Chancellor and the Minister will look at the formula in that light.
I hope they will also consider the formula in another light, that of the ratio of rates to taxes. I have considered the possibility of placing education, like the Royal Navy, firmly upon the waves of the Exchequer, to be borne up solely by the Exchequer. My Friends and I have rejected that possibility, because we have thought that it was wrong to remove all local interest in education Local interest is brought in through the rates. In the event of the general cost of education increasing very much from what it is at present, as we all know that it will, I want to ask the Government to what ceiling they think the rateable burden can be brought. It is now some £67 million. It is doubtful whether it can be carried very much further, although it might be carried up by some £20 million or £30 million or a bit more.
There will be a limit to what the rates can carry. We shall then have to adjust not only the ratio between richer and poorer authorities but also the ratio between taxes and rates. I hope that in doing that abstruse calculation the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister will bear in mind what ceiling she proposes to put to the rates, and that they will then tell us what the proportion of the Exchequer is likely to be. I am not going further into the grant formula. I do not expect that local education authorities will get everything they ask for. That would no doubt make their task easier. I am convinced that they will continue to operate the Act to the best of their ability and that in doing so, the poorer areas, and the Welsh councils, in particular places like Merthyr, will have an opportunity of sharing in the reforms with the rest of the country.
This Debate gives us an opportunity to ask how the education of this country and of the Principality of Wales is likely to develop. Is it to be a social exercise designed to turn every child out according to one pattern of absolute equality, or an educational exercise designed to develop the individuality of our children in order to fit their abilities and aptitudes to the tasks in life most suited to them? Undoubtedly, the Committee will come down in favour of the latter choice. I could not help seeing in the course of her remarks that that was also the Minister's view. I should like to reassure the Committee that if they do choose the latter course and put educational considerations before social considerations, there is in their hands an Education Act which will, in itself, achieve social ends. The machinery was not designed to shortcircuit education in order to achieve social ends at once. It was designed so to train the individual in a variety of ways that those social ends can be achieved. It was designed to suit the pattern of the new society in which we all hope to live. Another general remark—it is the only remark upon which I am ever likely to agree with Professor Laski—is as to the extent of intelligence there is available in this country. There is no doubt, as we were told by the Barlow Committee on man power, that at least 10 per cent. of the population is fit for entry into universities. I hope that on another occasion we shall have an opportunity of discussing the universities and all that they mean. They do not arise on this Vote.
The Barlow Committee said:
The last general remark I wish to make, before coming to some of the practical questions to which the Minister referred, is that no nation has ever really made a success of a national system of education so called. We have had little chance of seeing what a national system means. We have now a chance of success. We have seen the definite success resulting from the labours of individual pedagogues, and from the fruits of education given in individual schools. What can a national system achieve? It would seem to be necessary to pay particular attention to the individuality and the character of the pupils, to the variety of schools—that supports what the Minister has been saying—and to the quality of the education provided. In this matter we have had considerable experience of a national system. As the supply of teachers gets easier, it will be most important to stress the quality provided in the State schools. The school is not a place in which to collect and to pen children, and keep them interested and happy, although that is very important. We have to pay attention to the pre-eminence of intellectual quality and to give the best form of teaching possible.
The Minister made certain remarks upon the subject of secondary education for all. I thought we were about to be projected into a continuation school of the Bournemouth Conference. I am glad to say that the Minister refrained from going very far. I was brought up to the old song:
Now we come to some of those priorities which are before us, particularly the supply of teachers. I will not go over the arguments which were raised in the Debate on emergency training, for which we were indebted to the hon. Member for the English Universities. He has a reputation as watchdog in all educational matters. We have, I suppose, to accept the Minister's view that the emergency scheme was designed for a limited objective. It was certainly put into force before the Bill was law. I agree that it must have a limited objective, and that there must be a limit to what the Minister can manage as an executive agency. There must even be a limit to the able labours and the attention which, I understand, the Parliamentary Secretary is bringing to his task. If we are to get only 12,000 teachers a year when the emergency scheme is in full operation and only 9,000 teachers a year from normal sources, that is, university departments and the training colleges, for some years ahead—and that is regarded by some as an optimistic view—we shall not get enough teachers to deal with the size of classes in any appreciable number of years. We have to face that. It will be possible for the Minister to say that she can bring in the raising of the school-leaving age because the 13,000 teachers necessary can be seconded for that, but is it realised by the Committee that there are some 2,000 classes with over 50 pupils each and 4,000 with over 40 pupils? I have seen that in some cities, and I know what a grim outlook it is and how seriously we must take our discussions on this matter.
If we have to accept from the Minister that there are limits to the emergency training scheme, I say that it will be necessary to adopt some other machinery to stir up the long-term training of teachers and to accelerate its products. We have not heard very much of that today, as I should have hoped we would. I should like to see the matter handled rather differently from the emergency scheme and rather differently from purely leaving this question to the administration of the local authorities. I am led to that by considering certain facts which have caused me grave concern. First, there is the number of ex-Servicemen who will be hanging about waiting for a job. Some 12,000, 13,000 or 14,000 may be available and waiting.
The second point is the number of vacancies which local authorities have been advertising. They are evidently not being filled up as quickly as they ought to be. The third thing is that this scheme is training about seven men to two women, which is a completely different ratio from the normal teacher training of this country. The tragic thing is that the greatest shortage of teachers is in the infant and junior schools, and those are places where this superabundance of men cannot be placed. These are all facts which are likely to lead to a muddle unless they are tackled.
I understand that the Minister has published a circular, No. 115, as late as 21st June last. I must confess that I do not regard this Circular as dealing with the problem sufficiently. It uses such language as: I regard that as a first-class bromide and not worth the paper it is written on. What is wanted is a scheme and not pious aspirations in general language. The only way to tackle this, if we are to limit the emergency training scheme to what it can carry out, is some central teacher-training organisation. This should not be left to the executive care of the Ministry or solely to the local authorities but they should be brought in, as was done in the passing of the Act, as the partners under some central board. Such a development was hinted at in the McNair Report. I am thinking not only of difficulties over training but over placing teachers. There is at present a small committee sitting between the A.E.C. and the N.U.T. on appointments. There is the Appointments Department of the Ministry of Labour. I am not satisfied that when suitable teachers are trained they go to suitable appointments. Not only am I anxious about the waiting, but about the muddle over the actual appointing. The agencies I have referred to are not at all large organisations and I think it essential to have some central nexus in which the whole future of teacher-training can be examined and which will act as a focus for appointments and for putting the right men and the right women into the right jobs. I trust that the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary will give this matter consideration and that, with the hundred more chances they have of obtaining reliable opinion than are available to me, they will produce a plan which will face up to some of the difficulties I have mentioned and bring the partners and the central authority closer together.
In regard to the problem of building, I am glad to hear from the Minister that she has had reports from 143 authorities. I think there will be success in this policy of the three-year plan but I have another criticism here. The difficulty is that we are dealing almost entirely under this three years' plan with the raising of the age and not with reorganisation which is so vitally necessary. I would like to see a little more elasticity in the administration of the department with regard to possible schemes of reorganisation. This is possible in newly built-up areas and housing estates, where a start can be made with a reorganised school, but there should be more elasticity in the administration of these plans in bringing in the possibility of future reorganisation. The Hadow Report has not yet been implemented, and we cannot pile one reform on another without carrying out the older ones. I was aware of the urgent need for reorganisation and hoped it would have priority. It is a serious issue in the villages to raise the school age, for without reorganisation there will not be a real educational reform.
In view of the time, I will not give a dissertation on the future of the modern school, but I want the modern school to develop out of this Act as the county secondary school developed out of the Balfour Act of 1902. I believe that each Act produces a product which is unsuspected at the time. I hope that the curriculum of the modem school will be developed by the introduction of the humanities as far as possible into such schools, with the early teaching of the beginnings of science and so forth, it may be possible for the modern school to provide a real English contribution to the content of secondary education for all. I agree with the hon. Lady that we ought to link the question of secondary education for all with adolescent and continuation schools. The Committee is up against a real problem here. Unless we introduce continuation education, the public will lose its faith in Parliament with regard to education. After the last war the Fisher Plan was abandoned. After this war, this revised and amended plan must be carried through, and I am very grateful to the Minister for mentioning it in her long-term post-1948 plan. That is absolutely right. Would she think of it in this light? Looking at this matter technically, as children only attend the county college for one day in the week, and as there are some 1,800,000 children likely to be available for county colleges when they are brought in, it will only be necessary to cater for 360,000 young persons on any particular day. That is actually half the building provision necessary to bring in the raising of the age to 15, in which roughly 600,000 children are involved. When the problem is looked at like that, the outlook is not so fearsome as it otherwise is.
I have always been keen to encourage continuation schemes within industry. Having been responsible for the Education Act, I thought the least I could do in the spare time now vouchsafed to me was to do all I could to help forward such ideas. I have noticed in industry not only a desire to help forward continuation but a very great desire to improve the technical colleges of this country, which are at the present moment unsatisfactory both in staffing and equipment. I say to the Minister and to the Government that I have found nothing in the schemes for what in our opinion are big industries which squares with the idea that they want to use education as a vocational method of getting more money out of their young people. What I have noticed is an intense desire to bring in education schemes of their own. I would go so far as to say that certain industries I know are determined to go ahead with their own resources if they are not helped by local authorities or the Minister. The effect of that will be that many a bona fide education scheme may be introduced in a big industry. Thus many thousands of young persons may be dealt with seriatim by various industries in this country and, I think quite genuinely, the industries will try to enlist the help of local authorities. I think the time is coming when the Minister will have to use this type of improvisation in order to get her plans through.
However, in order that there should be no crossing of the wires, I suggest to the Minister that there should be not only a central training board for teachers but some sort of central industrial educational council which will be able bring the efforts of industry in touch with the efforts of the local authorities and in touch with the views of the Ministry. If that is so, we can then share our views with the Minister and her advisers, and we can do it, not privately as we do now—and we are given every assistance by the technical branch of the Ministry—but in the light of modern progress and development. Then we can fit in with the future plans for country colleges when they are brought in round about 1950. I put this point to the Minister in the hope that she will consult the Industrial Welfare Society or any individual firm with a view to correlating the sincere efforts of the industry to meet the needs of the younger generation at the present time.
Those are the only contributions I will make today. I had hoped that we might devote a longer time to this subject because there is so much interest throughout the Committee, and in that case it might perhaps have been possible to develop one's ideas of the content of education on which the Minister is starting. I would only say to her on that subject that I hope she will develop and increase the stature of the inspectorate. I hope her own Senior Chief Inspector will soon find that he cannot live by bread rationing alone, but will come back to the Ministry. I had the greatest difficulty in getting him from the Ministry of Food, and I sincerely hope that the Ministry will not shed people at the present time but will bring in people, not only their own officers but their own partners as we did in passing the Act.
What is wanted now is not only imaginative central inspiration, but a mosaic of individual improvisation, brought together at the centre by a series of bodies, which associate the Partners in a common enterprise.
5.3 p.m.
I find it rather difficult to say the more unkind things I had intended to say, after the very charming example of appeasement set by the right hon. Lady. I cannot help contrasting her not too sanguine words with the speeches which came from both sides of the House when the 1944 Act was being discussed. At that time, the speakers varied amongst themselves on certain points, but we were all alike in one respect; we said that we were getting a real revolution in education, that we were getting an all embracing system of schools which would give the poor as good a schooling as the rich. Indeed, many hon. Members, whose hearts were perhaps better than their heads, hailed the 1944 Act as the dawn of the millennium. The speeches were all alike also in their complete unconcern about the quality of this universal education, as to whether the article offered to the masses was really worth having. We discussed at length all kinds of adventitious additions like school meals, milk for school children, gymnasia, playgrounds, compulsory worship, but there was hardly one word about education.
Indeed, I remember only two contributions made on this subject, one, when an hon. Member asserted that the object of education was to prepare the children for the next world; the other, from another hon. Member on a different side of the House, who said that the object of education was to prepare them to earn their living in this world. I may say that neither statement impressed me as quite adequate. The fact is that the discussions of the 1944 Act were wrapped up in cotton wool and fluff, and it is no surprise to me that the Act itself and its administration at the present time is a sad disappointment. Most of the promised benefits show no sign of materialising, and such action as the Ministry has taken has caused the gravest apprehension to all those who are concerned about education. The only good that has come out of it so far is indirect, inasmuch as it was due to the action of the Burnham Committee. I refer to the raising of the status of the primary teacher, which we welcome as being very much overdue, but that reform is largely offset by the certainty that under the emergency scheme a vast horde of ill-equipped and ill-trained persons will be dumped among the properly trained teachers.
Mischievous nonsense.
Perhaps the hon. lady will have an opportunity later to say why it is mischievous nonsense.
Yes, I will.
They will reap all the benefits and rewards, such as they are, of the fully trained teacher, but they will inevitably lower the prestige of the profession. At one time I thought it would be better to acquiesce in this regrettable makeshift in order to get some kind of order in the schools—
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of these emergency trained teachers have an experience which will be of inestimable value in the class rooms of this country?
I am quite aware of the fact also that many of them have not that experience.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these emergency trained teachers are also emergency trained soldiers, and that as emergency trained soldiers they made the greatest contribution they could to the saving of our civilisation?
I am afraid there is a great deal of illogicality there which I cannot go into now.
Not at all.
You can train soldiers to fight and kill in an emergency but you cannot train teachers in an emergency.
What would we have done without the emergency teachers?
What is the hon. Gentleman's alternative then?
Now it seems that the Ministry has managed to complicate the working even of this open-cast system of training. Owing to a miscalculation of the number of men and women teachers required respectively, things have come to such a pass that it is seriously suggested in the latest circular of the Ministry of Education that teachers in secondary schools should be sent by the authority from those schools to teach junior schools, and to send the present junior school teachers to teach in the infant department. [An HON. MEMBER: "Ridiculous nonsense."] This is a new and alarming symptom of the regimentation of teachers which is becoming more and more evident under the present Administration. The teachers are fast becoming displaced persons. I know very well the difficulties under which the Minister has to work, but the Ministry cannot be held blameless for a lack of foresight and preparation, and it is this which is responsible for such an extraordinary suggestion, a suggestion which will unite local education authorities, secondary teachers, primary teachers and infant teachers in a chorus of resentment and ridicule.
When this suggestion is coupled with the chaos throughout the country in the administration of the Burnham Award for posts of special responsibility, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the machinery of the Ministry has already broken down, and that the 1944 Act will end by joining the Fisher Act in the dead-letter office of the Ministry of Education. I suggest that the moral of all this is obvious—it is the simple fact that one cannot build a ship without first erecting scaffolding and staging. In other words, it is not merely the teachers who are lacking, but administrators, inspectors, clerks, secretaries and even typists in the offices, both centrally in Whitehall, and locally in the local authorities. No one in authority seems to have foreseen this very simple requirement.
It is with extreme reluctance and distaste that I turn to the grim future facing our grammar schools, in consequence of the powers conferred on the Ministry of Education by the 1944 Act. I have already on many occasions joined with the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) and others on both sides of the House in urging the House of Commons to realise the gravity of the situation. But it is apparently impossible to get most hon. Members opposite to see that it is precisely their own schools, the schools to which they send, or should send, their own children, the very schools which have helped to give Labour the eminent and honourable position which it now holds—that it is these schools that are now being harassed and degraded by the present policy of the Ministry. Enough has been said perhaps about the unfortunate effects of the Burnham Award, which has already run half of its allotted course, and it is hoped that we shall see a change for the better in the next period. That is all I propose to say about it at present.
But it cannot be too strongly emphasised that the gulf between the privileged schools of the rich—with their excellent staffs, adequate scales of salaries, their comparatively generous holidays, their freedom from lay interference, and above all their tremendous prestige—and the county school, has been growing wider, is growing wider, and will grow wider in the future. We may as well face the facts. The public schools up to the advent of the 1944 Act, were rapidly being approached in standard and performance by the new schools established for the common people under the 1902 Act in England, and in Wales by the 1889 Intermediate Education Act. In a very short time the criticisms that the old school tie was able to corner posts in the higher Civil Service, and in the universities and professions, would have ceased to have a meaning, because the county and municipal secondary schools were rapidly taking their proper place in the service of the country.
But the success of a school is not to be measured merely by the high positions which its pupils have gained. Perhaps in all these discussions too much stress has been laid on that aspect. The real test is their effectiveness as centres of enlightenment, as places where the old ignorance, the old prejudices, the old ignoble fears, are conquered. I do not hesitate to assert that, by this standard, the common schools were doing for the common people what the public schools, with all their excellent qualities, could only do for a portion of their pupils.
The old fight to have within our borders one united nation of men and women enjoying the same privileges of culture and enlightenment, the fight which hon. Members opposite have always professed to wage—that fight is being lost in the schools. It is being lost because the very men who should care for and foster the schools to which their children owe so much, have become befuddled with a false and misleading egalitarianism. Their schools are being harassed and persecuted—there is no exaggeration in the words—by the very people who depend upon them for the education of their children. Or do they? It would be interesting to know how many of the hon. Members on the Labour benches have definitely made up their minds that the secondary school is not good enough for their children, and who are anxious to have them taught in the larger air of the public schools. I hope no one will challenge that, because it would be very awkward to give examples.
I wish to say a word about the findings of the Norwood Committee on examinations. As things are at present, even the reforms advocated in the Norwood Report will react unfavourably on our grammar schools. It has, for instance, been suggested that the school certificate in its present form should be abolished, and an internal certificate, given by the school itself, substituted for it. That would be a desirable reform, on one condition, if all schools were allowed an equal opportunity of distinguishing themselves as educational institutions—and only on that condition. What employer is going to give as much weight to a certificate from Little Puddleton grammar school as to a certificate from, let us say, the Manchester Grammar School, or to one given by a university delegacy which will still, presumably, inspect and report on the work of the public schools?
The reforms advocated in the Norwood Report are meaningless—indeed, they are worse, they are positively dangerous—unless all grammar schools and public schools, however governed, have the opportunity of equal prestige and esteem. I beg the Minister to reconsider the whole position before she takes the irrevocable step of abolishing the school certificate. If she does not, this country will definitely fall behind the countries which has a more enlightened educational policy, and where sectional interests are not allowed to throw a spanner into the machinery of the schools. I have spoken thus, and said some displeasing things to hon. Members opposite, but I have an excuse for it. I have a serious concern for the kind of school to which I, and many of my colleagues in the Liberal Party, and in the Labour Party, owe so much, These schools were, in the hackneyed phrase, our almœ matres, our loving mothers, and if we are unable to attempt all the ten questions in the paper of the Ten Commandments, we can at least attempt the fifth.
5.20 p.m.
I beg to move, "That Item Subhead A.1 be reduced by £100 in respect of the salary of the Minister of Education."
I have purposely directed this Motion to the Minister's salary, because quite frankly I feel that I am expressing a feeling throughout the educational world, both on the administrative side and—not organisationally—on the teacher's side, of deep disappointment with the Minister of Education. She has undoubtedly given the impression that she has not got to grips with her Department, and that she does not understand—I say quite frankly that I agree with it—the direction and drift of the educational policy she is pursuing. Indeed, we have had contradictory statements from her. At the Bournemouth Conference I moved a resolution with regard to "The Nation's Schools." The Minister replied. In fact she asked for special permission to make a Ministerial statement with regard to that. In spite of that Ministerial statement, the Bournemouth Conference turned the Minister down, because of the outline she had given of what I might describe as her educational philosophy. I wish to ask her quite definitely, does she or does she not subscribe to the theory and philosophy embodied in "The Nation's Schools"? At the Bournemouth Conference I got the impression that she turned it down. At the Conference of the Educational Association of Education Committees, within a week or so, she said the complete opposite.
indicated dissent —
The right hon. Lady can get up if she wishes. Will she deny and repudiate the philosophy of "The Nation's Schools"? She will not rise. Will she repudiate it? She should either subscribe to it or repudiate it. As a matter of fact, what I am asking her to do, to put it another way, is, Does she, or does she not, subscribe to the policy enunciated in the educational field by the Labour Party over a series of years? I have, for years, been a member of the Commitee that has dealt with the educational policy of the Labour Party. For years I, with Tawney and others, produced a series of pamphlets on secondary education for all. Does the right hon. Lady subscribe to that? The right hon. Lady need not smile.
Why not?
Only those who are impatient smile. Will the right hon. Lady get up, and, at that Box, subscribe to the Labour Party policy, which is not embodied in "The Nation's Schools," to which she has subscribed? Not at all. There is no sanction, either in Socialist policy or the Labour Party philosophy and the Labour Party programme and policy, for all that is embodied in "The Nation's Schools," or any of the circulars that are derived from "The Nation's Schools."
We have said that every child should have an equal opportunity, but what does "The Nation's Schools" do? I do not want to be misunderstood. I want to press the Minister on whether she does or does not agree that there is too great a provision for grammar school education. In "The Nation's Schools," it is stated: plans—one has difficulty in getting evidence—inspectors are going down to the areas and saying "You must not have an extension of secondary type schools. There is already an over-provision." The right hon. Lady does not get up and deny any of these things. Why not? I ask her very pointedly: Does she subscribe to this pamphlet's assertion that we have already, from the national point of view, too great a provision for secondary school education?
Would my hon. Friend supply us with the names of the districts where inspectors have gone round in the way he has stated?
These things are done in South Wales and in London. In any event, it would be a grand thing, and I know it would give keen pleasure in South Wales, if we could have a Ministerial pronouncement from the right hon. Lady this afternoon that, broadly and generally, the Minister repudiates that paragraph in "The Nation's Schools." Does she or does she not? There is no answer. She does not. [ Interruption. ] I do not know who wrote "The Nation's Schools." In any case, the Minister of Education, as far as I can understand—[ Interruption ]—My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, when I had this pamphlet in the last Parliament, said, "It is true I subscribe to it, it is true I am responsible for it"—
This is important. I should like to know who wrote this pamphlet and whether it is the business of the Ministry of Education. If officials wrote it, that is an entirely new departure. If a Minister wrote it, was it the present Home Secretary? It is a declaration of policy, and I think we ought to know.
Whoever wrote it, the Minister is responsible for it. It may be said an official wrote it, though I do not know whether the officials are running the Board of Education at present. It is the Minister's responsibility. The present Home Secretary, defending his position, said he had to agree to this as a compromise, because he had to take cognisance of the fact that behind him was a strong Tory majority. It was a compromise with Toryism. There is not the same Tory majority behind the present Minister. She has the opportunity of repudiating this completely. The right hon. Lady smiles. She need not take that view. That is just her usual flippancy, which is one of the reasons why there is deep concern about her not getting to grips with her job. The right hon. Lady cannot laugh me off with her usual flippancy.
In the first place, I would like to know from the Minister whether she repudiates this pamphlet. Second, I want to know whether she subscribes to the general outline and philosophy embodied in this statement that there are three groups and three strata of capacity. I cannot expect the Parliamentary Secretary to answer that question, because it is the responsibility of the Minister. This statement appears not only in this pamphlet, but in all the circulars which arise out of it. It is in the circular regarding secondary examination and it also appears in many others. This statement is that there is a small section of the community which is fitted, by capacity and aptitude, for grammar school education. There is another section of the community who are only fitted for what is called a technical education. In the broad field, there are masses of children who cannot have the same equality of opportunity. I ask the Minister whether she subscribes to that statement. In Bournemouth she did not. There she said, "I will take this offending paragraph back," but in the conference of the A.E.C. she still stuck to the general outline.
I do not want to delay the Committee any further but there is one final question which I wish to ask the Minister. Does the Minister subscribe to the provision of multilateral schools? She is supposed to be in favour of them. That is Labour Party policy. The Party stand by their promise to develop multilateral schools, but the right hon. Lady has done everything she can to pour cold water on this suggestion. I have evidence of that here, where she talks about their size and difficulties. She has issued a circular stating that if we have multilateral schools built in a certain way they may revert to the grammar school type, and so on. There is wholehearted support behind the Labour Party's policy for education. As far as the Minister is concerned, there is none whatever. She has repudiated it in theory and in practice. I hope that my hon. Friends in this sphere, at any rate, will realise that the right hon. Lady is a danger to the whole Labour movement so far as education policy is concerned. She is not true to the policies which we have adumbrated over a series of years. She does not believe in the capacity of the ordinary child, in the provision of educational facilities for the ordinary child, nor does she believe in an equalitarian system of education. Unless she repudiates not only this pamphlet, "The Nation's Schools," but all the leaflets, circulars and pamphlets which flow from it, she no longer believes in the education policy of the Labour Party.
5.36 p.m.
I should not have intervened in this Debate had it not been for the speech delivered by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove). He, like myself, is a Parliamentary representative of the National Union of Teachers. I do not want it to be thought for one moment that the Motion to reduce this Vote was inspired in any way by the National Union of Teachers. The Minister visited the annual Conference of the National Union of Teachers a few weeks ago, and she created an excellent impression. She gave us the idea that she was doing her best to perform a very difficult job. So long as she continues to do that, she will continue to have the support of the teachers of this country who are organised inside the National Union of Teachers. With regard to the specific issue raised by the hon. Member for Aberavon, I understood that the Minister said at the Bournemouth Conference that she had withdrawn the pamphlet, "The Nation's Schools," and was issuing an amended form which, no doubt, will give satisfaction to most hon. Members on this side of the Committee.
It would be an impertinence on the part of any back bencher to speak for more than a few minutes since the time for debate has been so very heavily curtailed, but I should like to put one point to which I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will refer when he replies. On 1st April, 1947, we shall be raising the school-leaving age. I think the Minister was quite right in raising the school-leaving age even if all the material conditions are not fully assembled by that date. We had the first promise to raise the school-leaving age in a Bill which was passed in 1930. We have been waiting for 17 years for the fulfilment of the promise to raise the age to 15. If the move had been postponed to a date later than 1st April, 1947, it would have created an atmosphere of cynicism and apathy amongst educationists in this country which would have prevented any further progress in education for a generation. On the other hand, I think it is important that we should assemble as many of the material factors as possible by 1st April, 1947. I think the Minister has taken vigorous measures to obtain additional teachers. If the figures which she has mentioned materialise and we get 12,000 teachers from the emergency training colleges by 1948, and an extra 7,000 teachers from the ordinary training colleges and university departments, then we should have enough teachers to enable us to raise the school-leaving age at that date.
However, it is not merely a matter of quantity; it is also a matter of quality. These students who are entering the emergency training colleges are, in most cases, very excellent material, and they are certainly not going to be an inferior kind of teacher when their training is finished. I had an opportunity of meeting a number of them at a conference last Christmas, and I found them to be very keen, energetic young men and women, who are likely to make very excellent teachers, but, of course, when they leave the emergency training colleges and go into the schools, they will not have acquired any real technical ability as far as teaching is concerned, and it is bound to be three or four years after they go into the schools before they can pull their full weight. I do not think these teachers will be entrusted with the teaching of children of 14 and 15, at least, for a few years to come. Those classes will be taken by teachers with longer experience and greater technical ability, and it is just those teachers who have borne the burden of very large classes during the past few years.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler) quoted figures of the number of large classes, and he mentioned 2,300 classes over 50 and 42,400 classes over 40, but those figures are those which were given in 1938, eight years ago, and we have good reason to believe that the number of large classes has very materially increased since 1938. In a borough not far distant from here, the borough of Luton, I am informed that 20 per cent. of the classes contain 50 or more children. In Birmingham, the average size of classes is 50 children. In Sheffield, the average size is approaching 50 children, and numerous instances could be cited from other localities. Teachers in recent years have borne the burden of these large classes as part of their contribution to the national effort during wartime, but they are in no mood to bear this burden very much longer without expressing their deep resentment and, perhaps, taking some action. To reduce the size of classes, it is necessary, not merely to increase the number of teachers—I think we have emphasised too much in our Debates on education in this House the necessity for increasing the number of teachers—but it is equally important to increase the accommodation available. The average senior school, now becoming a modern secondary school, of 400 children today, has 10 classes of 40 children in each, because the classrooms were constructed for 40 children. If we reduce these classes to 30, we should want three additional classrooms added to a school, and, to give accommodation for the additional school year, we should need four additional classrooms for one school alone. That could be multiplied many times over in the schools of the country.
Then we have a large number of overcrowded schools in the country districts. There are thousands of overcrowded schools in the rural areas, where children numbering from 20 to 100 are being taught by one qualified teacher assisted by two perhaps unqualified teachers, in buildings erected in the 70's, 80's or 90's of the 19th century, without proper sanitation, heating, lighting, gymnasia or even playing fields. These schools will all have to be rebuilt, and these all standard schools will have to be separated into junior schools and modern secondary schools, which will necessitate a tremendous amount of rebuilding in the next few years. According to the figures which the Minister gave us this afternoon, and I think she gave them to a conference last Monday, it does not appear that we are going to have the necessary accommodation available during the next few years. The hon. Lady gave figures of 4,200 classrooms to be constructed during the next three years, of which I understand that 1,000 are to be practical rooms which will not be available for ordinary teaching. The remaining 3,000 classrooms will only accommodate 96,000 additional children, and we have to find accommodation for 390,000 additional children with the raising of the school leaving age. Further accommodation will be necessary in order to reduce the size of classes, and it seems to me that what is wanted is more like 30,000 additional classrooms than the 3,000 which the Minister said would be available in a few years' time.
I should like, in conclusion, to emphasise the necessity of expediting the provision of this additional accommodation for our schools if we are going to reduce the size of classes and successfully raise the school-leaving age. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary, when he replies, will be able to tell us, first of all, what, in his opinion, is the additional accommodation necessary to raise the school-leaving age and reduce the size of classes to the figure mentioned in the Minister's regulation—30 for secondary schools and 40 for primary schools—and, secondly, how far measures are being taken to meet that additional demand for accommodation, and what is the time-table to which the hon. Gentleman proposes to give effect to secure provision for this urgently necessary additional accommodation? I do not agree with the hon. Member for Aberavon in his attack on the Minister, and I want to say that the Minister has a very difficult task in front of her and that she is giving great attention to detail. She is doing her work with enthusiasm, I am sure with a love of children, and we feel that she ought to have every possible encouragement and sympathy. As long as she continues to do that, she will receive our support. We do feel, and here I rather agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden, that, perhaps, the Government have not given sufficient priority to education. In my opinion, having addressed a great many meetings, some of them large ones, in different parts of the country on the question of educational reconstruction, I find that the working-class people today are anxious to secure good secondary education for their children. There is more enthusiasm for educational reform in this country than there has ever been before, and I hope the Government will take full note of that and give this matter its due measure of priority, and that the Minister's elbow may be strengthened, when arguing this matter in the Cabinet, and so secure a greater measure of priority for education than her colleagues seem to have given her in the immediate past.
5.58 p.m.
I think the Committee will much prefer the helpful attitude of the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley), and that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler), in their requests that we should help the Minister in securing priorities for education, to the destructive attitude underlying some of the views we heard expressed earlier. It seems to me that their attitude is much more constructive than the rather didactic methods of the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove), who had a class rather larger than 40, but who, I am sorry to say, like a few teachers, seems to have run away the moment his lesson was over.
There are two methods by which I think we can help the Minister in her difficult task. The first is machinery and the second is policy. In regard to machinery, I think the Committee would like to help the Minister's establishment officer in his negotiations with the Treasury, in obtaining sufficient means to back up the Ministry so that it can do its job. I am in touch with many of the 146 Directors of Education, and so, possibly, I can, without disclosing names, give a quotation from one letter which I have received. This letter says:
The raising of the school leaving age has been a political issue for a very long time. If I were asked to give any one reason why there has been difficulty about it, it would be—and we all know it, really, in our bones—that the parents and the children of this country have been very doubtful whether the extra year's energy put into subjects which, as they saw it, had no apparent immediate utility, would be worth while. If we had had earlier, that development, which I know the Minister and the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler) hope will result from the 1944 Act, so that parents, and pupils going forward to secondary education, could feel that their work had an application which was worth while, then, I think, we should not have had the political difficulty which clearly arose over the raising of the school leaving age. Therefore, I strongly welcome the obvious sincerity of the Minister when she says that she intends to go forward with those schools which, I think I am right in saying, she herself said exist at present only in name.
Similarly, I wish to emphasise the point that I do not think that technical education should, necessarily, be vocational education. I believe that the so-called grammar school education was the vocational education for the clerkly and priestly orders of those days. It was also, in so far as classical application was concerned, of great merit in this House, where to be able to put in the right quotation from Horace was almost a prerequisite to a passage to the Front Bench. Historically, that very fine education, that pursuit of knowledge for knowledge's sake has shown how transferable education can be. I am certain that for a boy who thinks of going into building, and is convinced that an education in building is the only thing that will interest him—gains from his interested pursuit of that education a completely transferable and, therefore, non-vocational training. He can transfer the educational progress which he has attained through his study of building, to any university and to almost any pursuit he likes.
That leads me to the vexed question of whether there should be a modern school as well as a technical school. I think that, ideally, there should be only multilateral schools. In theory, it is right that a child should be able to change schools as easily as he can change sections in a school. In practice it is not so easy. Emotional loyalties are aroused, and, after all, the teachers and the principals are experts. They are dealing with parents who are not experts. It is so easy and so human for them to argue how much better it is for the student to carry on for another year in the type of education, which they must believe in if they are decent teachers and principals. On the other hand, if it is merely the transfer of one section in an existing school to another, then it is not so difficult for the parent, and for the boy or girl to get that education which best suits his or her particular need. Owing to the fact that there is this ratio of only 1 to 20,000, the dice are heavily loaded in favour of the purely grammar school type of education. The hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) gave a very good example of what one might almost call a prejudiced belief in the complete soundness of only one type of education. There is so much of that belief about, that I fully subscribe to the view that there should be separate schools to go on with, but I feel the modern school will be only a mongrel—a mixture of the two and will contain only the rejects of the other two.
There are two policies of interest. There is the policy of interest in knowledge for the sake of knowledge, and the policy of interest in knowledge because it is of some utility somewhere. There are two types of mind in respect to interest, and there is room for two types of school, but I feel that the interposition of a third, which would be a lesser edition of the second, would be bad for the young people of this country. If we are to build these premises and have this three-year plan, for which I am delighted the Minister is going to drive, we must remember that it is a question not only of premises and the removal of insanitary schools, but a question of teachers. That is much more important. I very much like Circular 55 on the training of technical teachers, but I hope that more will be done, in advance of the planning of this three year programme, to provide the teachers. I believe that Bolton is going ahead and is doing good work. I notice also that there is provision for additional courses for men and women who are engaged in industry to act as additional teachers. I would like to know if that is being pushed for all that it is worth.
Let us then, as a Committee, say to the Minister that we back her up in this great work, and authorise her to say to the Cabinet that she must have for the young people the priority which really matters, because the future of peace and of this country, if it lies in anyone's hands at all, lies in the hands of the Minister of Education.
6.3 p.m.
I am glad to be able to follow the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Pitman), for although he sits on the opposite side of this Committee, he has made a valuable and stimulating speech. I could not agree with him more than I do with his references to the need for multilateral schools. I agree that the provision of multilateral schools, particularly in the rural areas, is not only financially but also educationally and psychologically sound, and I hope the Minister, in whom I have the greatest confidence, will give the closest attention to this question of multilateral schools. The point in the hon. Member's speech which makes it most easy for me to follow him, however, was his fleeting but sound reference to the Air Training Corps. It is on that peg that I wish to hang my coat in reference to the youth service. I was rather surprised to find that in an otherwise interesting and comprehensive speech, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education found it impossible to refer to this very vital part of our educational services. I was even more surprised to find such a reference missing from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler).
If we had both mentioned this subject, we would not have given time for any other speeches. I had prepared a speech twice the length of the one which I delivered.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not regard my remarks in any way as a suggestion that he should now get up and make a second speech. I am beginning to wonder whether this indifference to the youth service is not symptomatic of both sides of the Committee, with possibly my exception. I am wondering whether the youth service is not the Cinderella of the educational services as a whole, and that, after a brief and perhaps brilliant excursion during the war, it is now, at the stroke of 12, being relegated back to the rags of peace. For the next few minutes I want to make a plea for a new statement on the position and prospects of this very vital section of our educational policy. I wish, for instance, that the Civil Estimates, Class IV, which seem to be the basis for our Debate today, contained a little more detail as to the expenditure which the Minister proposes to make under this head. Amid all the wealth of detail which this volume contains, I find that the only reference to the youth service is a single line on page 12 at the tail end, under the heading "D.1—Grants for Educational Services," etc.:
Having said that, mindful of the fact that many wish to follow and time is short, may I now touch on the second point which I wish to make? That is to make a plea to the Minister that when the development plans, particularly with regard to certain rural areas, come before her, she will examine them carefully before she agrees to the discontinuance of as much as one rural school without substituting a better school in its place. I know that building, staffing and other difficulties make it seemingly necessary to close down some of these village schools, but I do not agree that by so doing rural education can be improved unless other schools are provided. I suggest that she should inform local authorities that she expects them to spend as much on rural education, particularly primary education, as on town education. Most rural authorities are dominated by reactionary mandarins who aim to save on the rates at the expense of that section of the population which is least organised and least vocal in its own defence.
The time is coming when the outcry will be so great that the population of the countryside will strike against the kind of policy which too many rural authorities are proposing to follow. It has been said, it is inevitable that in reorganisation certain groups of children must be moved from one school to another. Why, in every plan of reconstruction, is it inevitable that rural children, the children of the countryside, are moved to the towns?
They are not.
They are in very many instances. I can assure the hon. Lady that, if I had time, I could inundate her with examples. It is only because of my regard for the time of the Committee that I do not take up that challenge to my suggestion. It is time somebody in the Ministry of Education and in our education offices looked at this question of moving children from this point of view: would it not be better to move some of our town children to the countryside? Could we not build some of the best schools outside the towns and arrange, as has been done in some of the smaller European democracies, to take many of our town children out into the countryside for their education? I commend that idea to the Minister. She is familiar with those experiments, which have now become national policy in some countries in Europe. I am quite sure that if our urban children were given the opportunity of an education in a rural atmosphere they would not only benefit in physical health, but would also store up those mental and and moral reserves which only education in contact with the handiwork of the Creator can provide.
6.12 p.m.
This must necessarily be a very short Debate and I must begin my few remarks by apologising to the Parliamentary Secretary for the fact that, owing to the rearrangement of time, I shall have to leave as soon as I finish my speech. I join with those who have congratulated the Minister today on the report which she has made. I think it is well that we had one dissentient voice, because it enabled the Minister to gather, from the reaction which it produced, the fact that she has the broad support of both sides of the Committee in the work she is undertaking. She pointed out—and I do not think we can quarrel with her—that inevitably during the next year or two she has to be concerned with priorities. She has selected two and will make a drive for them. I am quite certain that in making the choice she will not overlook the necessity of taking the broad view, and, as far as possible, advancing along the whole front, although making a drive at one or two points.
On a point of Order. A number of hon. Members had wished to speak, but obviously this is the last speech that we shall have before the Parliamentary Secretary replies. May I ask the Minister whether there is any way of arranging to have further speeches on this subject on another occasion? We all have sympathy with the right hon. Lady, who had to cut her speech, as also had the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler). This is the only day on which we are able to discuss this most important matter of education administration. There are scores of hon. Members on both sides of the Committee with large experience of educational matters, who desire to speak. Will the Minister pass on to the Leader of the House the demand that we should have further time?
That is not a point of Order, and earlier on the House decided—and I think the hon. Member himself supported that decision—that another subject should be discussed at seven o'clock.
The question of who took part in that discussion has nothing to do with it.
The hon. Member is quite out of Order in raising this question now.
It will have been gathered that I am opposing the proposed reduction in the salary of the right hon. Lady, which is, I gather, the subject we are discussing. The point I was making was the necessity, in the administration of the Act, of keeping the three sections under review, and so far as possible, making provision for each—for the children, for the youths and for the adults. In particular, the Minister must not overlook the children in rural areas. She felt herself compelled to say that the rural children are bound to suffer during the period of temporary expedients. If she will keep her eyes, not only on the secondary children and the town children but on the rural children, on the need of the youths and the need of the adults, she will then be developing the whole of her system as we would like to see it developed. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) pointed out, the faith of the Committee and of the public is engaged in this matter of developing higher education for all sections of the community. It has been promised. One hopes that when the first generation to go into the new secondary schools comes out at the other end, the youth colleges will be ready for them, and that provision for adult education will be ready for them so that they, at any rate, will be able to benefit from the reforms which the Act produces.
We recognise that the Minister will have to fight her colleagues in the matter of priorities for labour and materials. There was an occasion when I referred to her by a name from "Alice in Wonderland." Today I think we would like to see her more resembling the lady whose statue appears on Westminster Bridge. It is in that capacity she will have to go forth to do battle with the Ministry of Works and the Ministry of Health in the combat for her new schools, her new teachers, and for the other things that are needed. An aspect of education which has not been touched on today is that of the content of education. On any long view, that, it seems to me, must ultimately be the thing which is of even greater importance than bricks and mortar, and the things with which we are concerned in this period of reconstruction. If the Minister is able to build up a fine corps of first-class teachers three quarters of her educational problems will be at an end, because the most we can hope to do in education is to bring boys and girls into contact with first-class minds. Once the problem of the teachers is solved we will have gone a long way towards solving most of the other educational problems.
If secondary school pupils or other pupils could take part in this Debate there are two subjects which they would bring to the notice of the Minister. One would be over-crowded syllabuses, and the other the tyranny of examinations. The period in which we live is a period of immense advances, particularly in science. That has a repercussion on the specialist teachers. Each specialist teacher desires to develop his own subject to the utmost. The result is that in both syllabuses and examinations today the pupils are being overdriven. After all, they are being educated for life, and one of the things needed, to live reasonably, is leisure. There is still too little leisure, even with all the reforms that have been introduced into education. I would make a special plea that the humanities should take their proper place, not only in the grammar schools, but in the other secondary schools as well. It was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Pitman) that the way to the Front Bench used to be to know the proper quotation from Horace, but we have changed all that, and today the way to the Front Bench is to know the proper quotation from Herbert. There is, however, still room for Horace, and I make my plea today for the old humanities in as many of the schools as possible.
With regard to examinations, I would suggest, in connection with long-term development, that as far as possible they should be associated with the work of the schools. I know all the difficulties, but if the report of the teacher could be weighed up as part of the assessment upon which is determined whether a child gets the school certificate or not, or gets a pass or a credit, so that the teacher could feel that the teaching in the school was linked up very closely with the examination system, some of the tyranny of that system would disappear. Today the nation is suffering from the reaction of six years of war, and no one has greater power than the Minister of Education to hasten the recovery of our sense of national balance and national purpose, through all the machinery of education which is at her command. In so far as she has to fight for priorities, I am quite certain that she can rely on the support of the House. I believe she will find that she will get the greatest return by aiming at a good corps of teachers, as I have already said, but I hope that she will not restrict her activities to the secondary schools only. I want to see both youth colleges and provision for adult education given a very high priority, because I believe that much of the trouble and difficulty with which the world is faced today is fundamentally due to lack of education. Even with adults there is a very great deal to be done to broaden their minds.
I had the opportunity on Saturday last of sitting round a camp fire with a couple of hundred Boy Scouts, and if you want to see a cure for the ills of this world, there is nothing like mingling with the younger generation. One of the things I hope that both the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary will find it possible to do is to get away occasionally from Belgrave Square, and get down among the children whose future is their responsibility. There they can recharge their batteries by contact with the enthusiasm of youth, to the very great advantage of this country in the future. For myself I congratulate the Minister on the report she has made today, and wish her well in her future activities.
6.23 p.m.
In the few minutes still available I shall endeavour to condense the remarks I wish to make on the very important subject we have been debating this afternoon. I am sure I am expressing the views of a great many hon. Members on both sides of the Committee when I say how much we regret that the time available for discussing this subject has been curtailed. I am sure I shall also be expressing the opinion of the overwhelming majority of hon. Members on both sides of the Committee when I say how much we deplore the exaggerated statements and vituperative remarks made by the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove). Having listened to the comprehensive review given by the Minister of her tasks under the Education Act and her schemes for the future, I am sure she enjoyed the sympathy and congratulations of all of us; our congratulations on her grasp of the immense problems which lie before her, and our sympathy because of the extremely difficult conditions in which she has entered on her task of administering the Act of 1944. That Act is a great instrument, and credit for its passage, of course, is shared by both political parties. But the Act is only an instrument; it provides a great opportunity for the Minister to give form and purpose, soul and direction, to education, and if I make a few remarks which appear to be critical it will merely be because I feel some doubt—as do, I think, some other hon. Members—as to whether the Minister has the support in the Cabinet for the educational policies which, I believe, the educational programme demands.
May I take one specific instance of a vital nature which illustrates that point? To secure the objectives of the Education Act involves, as we all know, an adequate supply of teachers and an adequate supply of schools. We discussed the supply of teachers at length on Friday, and in part have done so again today. We have heard the Minister's programme for the supply of new buildings, but what about the existing school buildings? Those of us who represent London constituencies, or other constituencies in the blitzed areas, are continuously appalled by the shocking condition of the schools. I wish to be careful not to exaggerate, but there are certainly scores, and I believe hundreds, of schools in London—and no doubt in equal proportion in other blitzed areas—where no attempt has yet been made to remove the war damage from which they suffered. Those which have suffered considerable or major war damage are on the list for restoration in due course, but I am talking of those schools which are now occupied as school premises in London where conditions are perfectly appalling. It is, perhaps, relatively a minor matter that they have not been painted or cleaned, but many of these schools have no glass, but still have that yellow linen between the window frames, as a result of which children are working in classrooms which the sun does not enter. The windows cannot be opened, and in these June and July days—such as they are—the children, very often from slum districts, are working in classrooms where they get neither sunshine nor fresh air, because the work of repairing the windows has not been carried out.
The other day I visited a school not far from here, which the Minister herself saw in November last when, I think, she nearly wept at its condition. That school is still in the same condition today, on 1st July, as it was last November. Why? One knows about the shortage of labour and materials, and while there was a shortage of labour there was some excuse. But the shortage of labour is easing up, and unfortunately, as far as I can ascertain, the trouble is caused by the lack of cooperation between the Ministry of Works and the Ministry of Health. Since the publication of the Ministry of Health Circular 87 on 26th April, it has been impossible to carry out any work of this kind, either glazing, painting, distempering, or even removing the signs of occupation by the Civil Defence services. Debris and rubbish that have accumulated in many of these schools because they were used for Civil Defence purposes during the war are still there, a year after the war.
No doubt, the Government are quite properly preoccupied with the problems of housing. No doubt, the local authorities are quite properly preoccupied with the question of housing. But is the Minister of Education fighting a losing battle with the Cabinet—with her colleagues—on the problem of education? Is it right that these school buildings, for these children at their most impressionable age, should be still in this state of neglect when there is plenty of glass about, and when private buildings of all kinds, private offices and industrial buildings, have been reglazed and repainted? I can understand housing having first priority, but I cannot understand the repair of war damage to schools being postponed for the repair of war damage to private buildings. If it is a case of a clash of demands for materials, and so forth, and if there is a contest between one Department and another, then I hope that, as a result of some of the speeches that have been made this evening, the hand of the Minister of Education will be strengthened in this regard.
I pass over the remarks I was proposing to make on the subject of visual education, on which subject I hope it will be possible for, at an early date, the right hon. Lady to say something, I hope it will be possible for the Minister to send round another of those circulars to education authorities, to stimulate their keenness in acquiring film strip apparatus, and so forth, in order to make the most of the very great possibilities which that field of advance offers. I do not want, in view of the time, to say anything about the fascinating subject of the mechanics of the Act, the different kinds of secondary schools which may or may not be most appropriate; except to say, that, personally, I hope the Minister will encourage the greatest possible variety of secondary schools, that she will remove the rigidity that has existed in the past, that she will encourage every kind of experiment on the part of local education authorities that they may wish to put in hand, in one part of the country or another.
Finally, when all is said and done in regard to the operation of the Education Act, the thing that matters is the content of education itself. It has become a commonplace to say that our advance in science and technical knowledge has outstripped the advance of mankind in the moral and cultural sphere, and that it is only by an equal advance in the moral and cultural sphere that we can remove some of the horrors that threaten civilisation. May I conclude by quoting a sentence from a book called "Education for a World Adrift" by Sir Richard Livingstone. I regret it was omitted from the circular advising teachers what to read before they can get into a training college, and I do hope that it will be included in any subsequent list of books for the guidance of such teachers:
6.35 p.m.
There have been many points of view expressed in this Debate. "We happy few, we happy band of brothers"—and sisters—have had our day: and it is my business to ring down the curtain on this short Debate. I will do my best to cover the points of criticism, and, also, to express the ideals that we seem to share with hon. Members in all parts of the Committee. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) complained, and was supported, indeed, in that complaint, by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Southampton (Mr. R. Morley) and the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Islington (Mr. E. Fletcher), that the Government do not give priority to education. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden went on to say that the Government were dissipating their energies. I seem to remember, in an Adjournment Debate on the direct grant schools in November last, a very vivid phrase from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden:
There was some reference to the multilateral and bilateral schools, but as time is short I do not wish to go into these very complex problems. But I should like to agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden, that we on this side of the Committee, and in the Ministry, do stress the importance of variety in education, and variety in development planning. It is true, as he said, that we are asking a great deal from the taxpayer in these Estimates, but it is interesting to note that free primary, secondary and technical education, in cost to the nation, is less than what we, as a nation, are prepared to spend annually on dog racing and on football pools.
Some mention was made by the hon. Member for the University of Wales (Professor Gruffydd) of the emergency training personnel. I have been in touch, as has the right hon. Lady, with many of these emergency training colleges. I have gone there, it is true, as a bit of a show piece, but I have also made it my business to get into touch with the students. It is quite incorrect for the hon. Member for the University of Wales to assert that those men and women are to be ill equipped and ill trained teachers, when they have gone through the emergency training course. There is no truth in the assertion that this is to be an "opencast" system of training. Those of us, on all sides of the Committee, who know these men and women, men and women who have had years of experience in different parts of the world, realise that they are first class, and will enable the teaching profession to go forward with greater enthusiasm and inspiration than it has ever done before.
The hon. Member for the University of Wales spoke of the school certificate examination. I do not want to go into detail about this matter, because the right hon. Lady is awaiting now discussions and suggestions on this very important matter. It seems to me that education is the acquisition of the art of the utilisation of knowledge, and that that art is very difficult to impart. If there is to be any relationship between education and the art of utilising knowledge, then, it seems to me, there is nothing which is more detrimental to that art than an external system of examinations. They do tend to kill the best part of culture. But this is a matter upon which we can have varied opinions. I am quite certain, however, that it is high time, and that my right hon. Friend has it in mind, that the whole question of the impact of examinations on adolescents should come up for serious consideration, and that is the policy of the Ministry as explained in the circular on this question.
I do not intend to say much on the speech of the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove). I was in his constituency yesterday. It was extremely foggy and very wet. Perhaps, if I may suggest it, with all respect, a little of the miasmal mist of Aberavon, as it was prevalent yesterday, entered into his remarks today. His speech reminds me, as his speeches often do, of the verse: copies should be issued. The greater part of the pamphlet is a mere statement of facts concerning the Act of 1944. It is an impartial exposition of the Sections of that Act. In this case, repudiation would be meaningless. The only way to deal with the matter is in the way indicated by the Minister in her speech, namely, to have a completely new pamphlet, on the way to deal with the many problems raised.
Does this mean that the circulars flowing out from the Ministry will be withdrawn? I could mention half-a-dozen. The whole structure arises from that pamphlet.
The source of the circulars which go out is not "The Nation's Schools" but the policy of the right hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary and the Ministry.
They keep mentioning "The Nation's Schools."
We were all gratified to hear the references made by the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Pitman) to technical education. Many months ago we had an interesting Debate on this subject and its relationship to industry. No doubt it will be of interest to the hon. Member and to other Members to know of the more recent signs of improvement in regard to technical education and its relation to industry. For instance, there has been a large increase in part-time day schemes, which in terms of figures, is an increase from 20,000 to 90,000. It is interesting to note that the appointments of education officers within industrial firms, amount to over 300 for the Metropolitan area. There is a welcome and growing tendency for professional and industrial bodies to approach the Ministry in connection with trade schemes. Hon. Members can call to mind certain examples which have appeared in Press reports. Hardly a week passes without some new approach of this kind. Recent examples are, heating and ventilation, engineering, refrigeration engineering, farming, glass, pottery and the boot and shoe trade. All these industries have made approaches to the Ministry for help and advice in connection with training schemes. National colleges in connection with horology and aeronautics are being established. We have now under consideration the establishment of colleges relating to pottery, rubber, heating, ventilation and the wool industries. There is an increased interest by industry in certification. For example, the new national craft industry and the City and Guilds of the London industry are interested in this matter. Notable examples of gifts is that of Courtaulds to the Manchester College of Technology. Gifts from industry with specific reference to technical education are becoming more frequent.
I was sorry to miss the very important Debate which took place on Friday in connection with the emergency training of teachers. As my right hon. Friend said, we are very grateful to the hon. Member for the English Universities (Mr. Kenneth Lindsay) for bringing this matter again before the House. I cannot help feeling that he is a rather amiable Cesario who has built a willow cabin at the portals of Belgrave Square. It is a good thing that he should bring this matter before the Committee, and I was sorry I did not have the opportunity to say something concerning a speech, reported in "The Times" Educational Supplement, which he made at a gathering of educationists at University College, Hull. According to that report, he said, in reference to the emergency training circular, that it was:
I chose my words carefully. I asked many of my friends among local education authorities whether there was a possibility of putting it into practice—the question about clerical training and so forth—and they said that it was cynical.
The word "cynical" then, was not my hon. Friend's invention in this connection. I have had some experience of local authorities—perhaps I have had even more experience than my hon. Friend. Since I have had the honour of being at the Ministry of Education I have had considerable contacts with local authorities, and my conclusion is that there is generally the sentiment among local education authorities that they are not going to let ex-Servicemen and women down, and that they will do everything in their power to implement the suggestions in that circular. I know from experience only this weekend in the Principality of Wales that discussions are taking place to arrange morning and evening lecture courses and to make arrangements with schools for those who cannot yet enter emergency training colleges to have school practice wherever practicable. Even a residential college may put up students for certain short-term courses. We must be careful not to look on the gloomy side in connection with the implementation of the Act
I should have liked to say a great deal about youth services. The hon. Member for Caernarvonshire (Mr. Goronwy Roberts) made reference to that very important part in the implementation of the Act of 1944. I have had a great deal of experience in the youth service in certain parts of the country, but unfortunately there is no time to develop the point. Then there is the question of the village schools. The ideal form is a three-teacher school with a group of 40 to 50 boys and girls, but there again that is a subject which we must leave.
A matter of interest, which has run through most of the speeches, is the question of secondary education. I wish to underline what my right hon. Friend has said that when we speak of secondary education for all we do not mean a grammar school education for all. It is convenient to think of secondary education as three broad types of secondary schools. We have to give these three types the finest buildings, equipment and staff which we can create.
There are differences in intelligence among children as well as among adults. There are distinctions of mind, and these distinctions are imposed by nature. I am afraid that is a fact which we cannot get over. Children will be different in bent, and in intellectual capacity. There is a purpose in education and that is to draw out and develop the best in every child. Because children differ in their intellectual makeup, it seems to me that different provisions must be made by the Ministry of Education. It is our duty to do so. Every educationist knows this, and knowing it, he must not allow political generalisations and shibboleths to deflect him from his educational duty. We are not concerned about class distinction by intelligence or brains, but with giving every child the best possible facilities to develop his own particular inborn aptitude for intelligence and good character. Plato said:
If ever there was a time when the ball was at our feet it is now. We, as a nation, it seems to me, have to make up our minds what we expect from education. We have dithered and dallied over this far too long. We have never made up our minds whether to produce amateurs or experts. May I suggest that we have produced many of both, and we must now produce both in the training of the many. The amateur has powers of appreciation. He has vitality and versatility when confronted with organisation and routine, but he lacks, I suggest, the foresight which comes from special knowledge. Our object should be to produce the expert with all the added virtue of the amateur; that is why, whether in the multilateral or bilateral combined school of tomorrow, or in three types of secondary education under the three separate roofs, we have to think of the content of education anew. The ideal of the secondary modern school as indicated in the best of our senior schools between the wars and in the Cambridgeshire Village colleges, presents us with boundless opportunities. We at the Ministry of Education are not alone in this endeavour to build up a magnificent secondary modern school education.
Finally, may I refer to what I think is a misapprehension on the part of various speakers with regard to the County Colleges. There is a widespread belief that the county colleges are due to open on 1st April, 1950. I think that the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden will agree that this is not a quite accurate interpretation of the Act. The Sections of the Education Act about county colleges are briefly as follows: As soon after the 1st April, 1947, as the Minister considers it practicable so to do, local education authorities are to be directed to estimate the immediate and prospective needs of their area with respect to county colleges. That is mentioned in Section 43 (2). Section 43 (1) indicates that on or after the date to be fixed by Order in Council, not later than three years after 1st April, 1947, it will be the duty of every L.E.A. to establish and maintain county colleges. In Section 44 (1) it states that on a date to be fixed by direction of the Minister, as soon as practicable after the date fixed in the above, it will be the duty of the L.E.A. to enforce the compulsory attendance at county colleges for all young persons who are not exempt.
Since the planning of county colleges is to begin very soon, the directions specified in the Section should be issued at the earliest legal moment, that is, on the 2nd April, 1947. These directions will enable the local education authorities to estimate the immediate and prospective needs of their areas in respect of county colleges. It is perhaps a rather hasty reading of Section 43 (1) which has led some people to say that county colleges are to open on the 1st April, 1950. These people have noted that the date to be fixed by Order in Council is not later than three years after 1st April, 1947, and they have assumed that the date selected will be the latest possible one to that, and they think that the imposition on local education authorities of a duty "to establish and maintain county colleges," will mean that from the day of issue of the Order in Council onwards the system of county colleges will be in full swing. There is a difference between the estimate of the immediate and prospective needs in respect of the county colleges by the local education authority and the establishment of the county colleges, which becomes the job of the local education authority. The county college system will not be in full swing until the duty has been imposed on local education authorities of enforcing compulsory attendance at county colleges. It would be irresponsible to fix that date today.
Section 5 of the Act deals with the Central Advisory Councils. I raise this matter because this is one other legal commitment which we are not able to discuss owing to the small time allowed for this Debate. Can the Parliamentary Secretary say a word or two on that?
I do not think that I can say anything in answer to the hon. Gentleman just now. He perhaps might have given notice of that, or if we had had a longer time we could have gone into the details, but I am afraid I cannot answer that question now.
It being Seven o'clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair, further Proceeding standing postponed until after the Proceedings on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House standing over under Standing Order No. 8.
Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
Palestine (Situation)
7.1 p.m.
I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
I do so by leave of the House, for which I am grateful, in order to call attention to the happenings in Palestine over the weekend. I think perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister will not complain, for he must be aware that these events have caused the gravest misgiving, indeed dismay, all over the world, and if he can do anything or say anything to alleviate those anxieties and that uneasiness, that feeling with many of us that we are on the eve of a major tragedy, then he will not, I am sure, blame any of us for giving him that opportunity. If, on the other hand, he is not able to do so, then I hope that the House will be grateful that it has this opportunity, which may be the last opportunity, of warning the Government against proceeding on a path that may end in things which not only they would regret but which we and all humanitarian and all progressively minded people the world over would regret.
I cannot help feeling that my right hon. Friend's statement this afternoon, framed as it was with his customary restraint and moderation, may have misled the House into thinking that this matter is less grave than it is. Listening to him today, one would have thought that all that was involved here was a form of limited action against a few people or a small group in order to restore to Palestine law and order, which had been taken from it by the actions of a small group or a few people. My right hon. Friend knows that that is not so. This is not a limited, moderate, administrative action. This is plain naked war upon the Jewish national home, war of the White Paper of 1938 condemned by the right hon. Gentleman, by this party, by Members sitting on the Front Bench now and by the Leader of the Opposition at the time. Let no one think that nothing else than this is involved. Look at my right hon. Friend's figures. He said—and I am not concerned to dispute it—that the Hagana consisted of 70,000 to 80,000, I think was the figure. The total Jewish population of Palestine, man, woman and child, both sexes and of all ages is 600,000. Can it be denied that the attempt by the Administration by naked force to disarm 80,000 people out of a population of that kind means nothing else than war, war in every city in Palestine, war in every settlement? This House may wish to justify it; this House may think that it is necessary; this House may think that there is no other way; this House may think that the action of the Government is justified; but if it is to come to that conclusion let it be with full realisation of what is involved, and not on the assumption that it is some small, limited and restrained administrative action that is over in 24 hours.
It is not merely that which is involved in Palestine. I fear it will be resisted. It is not for me to say whether it should or should not be, but let Members of this House consider what the people in Palestine ought to do in these circumstances when the tanks and the Bren gun carriers arrive in the early hours of the morning in their settlements. Let hon. Members think instead what they would do if it were their houses, their villages, their towns or their streets that were being invaded in that way. Not merely is it that, but there is an international question involved. This is not merely war by the Palestine Administration to disarm the Jewish Defence Force of Palestine itself and attempt to put the Jewish Agency out of action. It is all very well to say that just a few members of the executive have been arrested, but British military Forces have occupied the building of the Jewish Agency in Palestine, and they are still in occupation. Do the Government expect that any member of the executive of the Jewish Agency who is now at liberty will be prepared to negotiate for or to represent the Jewish people or to continue to perform the functions of the Jewish Agency while their colleagues remain uncharged, untried, in concentration camps?
They killed British soldiers.
The Agency has the same right in Palestine as the British Government (HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The Agency has the same right in Palestine as the British Government. It is not there by the leave and licence of the British Government; it is not the creation of the British Government; it does not derive its status from the British Government or the Palestine Administration; it is a creation of international law. Further, the British Government cannot deny its right as a creation of international law, without denying their own right to be in Palestine at all. Both of them are creations of the Mandate, and I am amazed that the right hon. Gentleman should have thought it right to make an attack of that kind, not a hastily conceived attack, but a long premeditated attack, without consulting any of the other Powers involved. The mandatory Power and the Agency are co-trustees. If the co-trustees fall out about the interpretation of the trust deed it will not do for one trustee to put the other trustee in gaol, and then proceed to shoot the beneficiaries.
I congratulated the Foreign Secretary at the time—when it was not a popular thing to do—when he succeeded in bringing the United States of America into active cooperation with Britain, so that the burden of responsibility should not rest on this country alone, but should be shared by other countries, particularly by those who were pressing the British Government to do things, and which would rightly have been asked to share the responsibility for doing them. I congratulated the Foreign Secretary on bringing the United States into cooperation with the British Government in the setting up of that joint Committee. Since that Committee unanimously reported, my right hon. Friend's reason for not even having done anything about it, or not even having indicated the British Government's attitude to it, even in principle, has been that they cannot do anything until they have agreed with the United States of America about how many people are to come in, who is to bear the cost, and who is to share the responsibilities, if there are responsibilities, of defence. Not one thing could His Majesty's Government find to do alone, except this one thing—attacking the Jewish Agency and putting it out of action.
Why is this done? I listened carefully to the Prime Minister this afternoon. I have not, of course, had the opportunity of checking his words in the OFFICIAL REPORT and, therefore, if I misrepresent unintentionally what he said I hope he will correct me. I listened in vain in that statement for any accusation that the Jewish Agency, or any member of its Executive, was responsible, directly or indirectly, for any act of terror. I should like to know now, is that the charge made or not? Do the Government charge Mr. Shertok, head of the political department of the Jewish Agency, now in a concentration camp, of any active terror, either direct or indirect, by personal participation, incitement, or by encouragement or instigation? If he does, let me say that it is not merely a question of producing some day, some evidence, somewhere. It must be his plain duty to bring his charge before a court competent to deal with it, and to give the people charged with specific offences an opportunity of dealing with the charges and replying to any evidence that was given. Do not do it in the way the Nazis did it in occupied Europe—
Although we did it with the "18B-ers."
The hon. Gentleman knows that I protested about that at the time. Do not let us do it the way we did it in India, or the way we did it in Ireland. Do not try and do it without formulating the charge, and without letting the charge be answered, if it can be answered.
Now about Hagana. One would have thought, listening to my right hon. Friend, that there was something new about this, or something new about the association of the Hagana with the Jewish Agency. I beg Members to draw the proper distinctions in these matters. It may be hard to do it, but it is a duty to do it before conclusions are drawn or acted upon. There is all the difference in the world between a highly disciplined and trained defence force like Hagana, and the two small terrorist groups known as Irgun Zvei Leumi and the Stern group. Those distinctions must always be drawn. I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Consett (Mr. Glanville), who interrupted me a few moments ago, that nobody charges the Hagana with any active terror of that kind. The events he has in mind are the work of irresponsible small groups who, in so far as they have been restrained at all, have been restrained by Hagana itself. When the wicked act of the assassination of Lord Moyne took place, it was the Hagana who traced the culprits, arrested them, and handed them over to justice. My right hon. Friend knows the facts. This is no secret force, this is no unofficial or illegal thing. The Jewish Agency has had a share of the responsibility for the organisation of a defence force, to everybody's knowledge and with everybody's consent, for many years. When Mr. Ormsby-Gore, as he then was, gave evidence before, I think it was, the Peel Commission, the facts were clear. The Hagana came into real existence at the time when the mandatory Power was conspicuously failing in its duty to preserve law and order and security for life and limb in Palestine.
That is not the charge made by the Jewish Agency. It is not made by individuals, Members of this House, or otherwise. That charge has been made repeatedly in report after report of commissions set up by this House to inquire into this question. If the Hagana had not existed the national home in Palestine would have disappeared long ago. But not merely did it come into existence with the full approval of the mandatory Power in those times, but, during the war, it was armed and equipped by the British military Forces in the Middle East, and cooperated with them to the full. Its members fought on every battlefield in the Middle East and, indeed, elsewhere. When Rommel looked as if he might break through, and the British military authorities were looking around for anyone in the Middle East who could be relied upon to resist, was it to Egypt that they looked, was it to the Arabs in Palestine that they looked, was it to the Arabs anywhere that they looked? Certainly not. It was the Hagana upon whom they relied.
It is said that the Jewish Agency failed to cooperate. Cooperate in what? What was its duty? It was to cooperate with the mandatory Power in facilitating immigration and building up the Jewish national home. The mandatory Power, the British Government, stopped doing that in 1938. What was there to cooperate with? To cooperate with the Administration in implementing the White Paper, to cooperate in keeping refugee Jews out of Palestine, to cooperate with destroyers in firing upon wretched little ships, overcrowded almost to sinking point with people who had escaped with their lives, but only with their lives, and who were looking for a home in Palestine in the Jewish national home? How could they cooperate? If it be said that in those circumstances they ought to have compelled the population in Palestine to cooperate with the manatory Power in resisting illegal immigration, I say to my right hon. Friend that he is expecting the impossible. Nobody with any pretension to leadership in Palestine could have endeavoured to offer that kind of cooperation without abdicating all authority and all influence with the settlements in Palestine.
It is all very well to say they were wrong; it is all very well to say that all that was illegal. But hon. Members must reflect. You can, of course, deal with illegality as it occurs. You can repress it. That is not a very easy thing to do, but if you are prepared to do all the dirty work that is necessary, it can be suppressed. The British Empire can do it; it is powerful enough to do it. If British soldiers and airmen can be persuaded to do what is involved, this illegality can be suppressed. But is it not better to look for the causes of it, and try to remove the causes? If you can remove the causes of it and stop it in that way, is not that a very much better thing than all this blood, this poisoning of the atmosphere, this turning back on ideals and hopes and dreams that you yourselves have built up? The causes are known. There is no secret about them. The cause of violence is usually despair. The cause of violence in Palestine is desperation.
Suppose that a Member of this House had survived five years in Belsen or Buchenwald, suppose that he had held on during all those years hoping when hope itself was dead, and suppose that there had come to him at the end of five years of that, liberation. Suppose that he had no friends left in the world, no wife, no children, no parents, no relatives; suppose that his house had disappeared, and he were alone there in the camp; suppose that you gave him a new hope, and then you disappointed that hope day after day, week after week, month after month. Hitler never promised them anything. He did not promise them life, or a future, or a national home. The British Government did. Our Labour British Government, our Socialist British Government, are committed up to the hilt, as much as the Jewish Agency, or more, to the Jewish national home. I know they have had much to do and much to think of I know they have faced up to it manfully, with courage and with vision. I can forgive them the delays and vacillations. I know their difficulties, and how complicated it is. But I am living in safety. I can afford to be generous and tolerant, I can afford to wait. If I were living in Belsen or in any other displaced persons' camp, I might not be quite so patient, just as the friends who feel responsible for them in Palestine are not so patient.
They have not done so badly. They have waited all these months in vain for a single word from any Member of the British Government of hope or encouragement. I beg my right hon. Friend to look back on the record of his own speeches, and see how painfully frigid they are in this matter. I know he does not mean them to be frigid, but they are read by people of warmer, more emotional temperaments than his own. What we know is that nothing has happened yet, and the only thing that they have found they are able to do by themselves, without consulting anybody or anybody cooperating with them is the events of this last weekend. Is there not some excuse for desperation? Is there not some excuse for impatience? If you could end it all by a simple declaration and produce peace in Palestine tomorrow, would it not be your duty to do it?
Let me tell my right hon. Friend how, without guns, tanks and Bren carriers, and without lighting a flame of passion all over the world directed against our country, he can end all violence in Palestine tomorrow morning. Only one thing is necessary. It is that the Government shall say, in plain, clear terms, "We accept the recommendations of the Committee we insisted on having appointed." That is all. Let the declaration go further if the Government like. Let them say that, although they accept those recommendations in principle wholeheartedly, nevertheless the responsibilities involved are such that they cannot bear them alone. Let them say that they are negotiating with other Powers—the United States of America, I think, is the only one involved—for cooperation in what is necessary. Let them say, if they will, that they cannot begin to implement the recommendations until that cooperation is secured, but let them say that, for themselves, they accept the recommendations in principle, and will begin to operate them as soon as agreement with the United States about its share of responsibility has been achieved. My right hon. Friend has never said that. Why not say it? If he cannot say it because that is not what he means, do not leave it in doubt, and do not blame the Hagana, the Jewish Agency, for what would then be the consequences of his own policy or failure to have a policy. Make that declaration, make it in good faith, make it so that it is believed and violence ceases in Palestine, and there will not be this difficulty.
The House has heard me with considerable patience, and I ought not to keep it longer. If some of the things I have had to say have sounded bitter or heated, it is not because I want to do anything or say anything to make this very difficult position worse. It is because I think it is better to face ugly facts early and not try to burke them, camouflage them or hide them, so that whatever we decide to do we decide with our eyes open, and go forward firmly with courage to an objective we have clearly envisaged and clearly wish to pursue. I do not believe that my right hon. Friend means to commit an act of betrayal or treachery in this matter. I do not, and will not, believe it. The Government came into power ten months ago; they were a new hope, an unexpected hope, to all the tortured, persecuted and oppressed of the world. I believe they are the last hope of those people. Do not let them down.
7.30 p.m.
I beg to second the Motion.
I shall not be able to compete with the emotional remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman); I am not a Jew and not even a Zionist, but I happen to be one of the two Members of this House who had the unique privilege of seeing this whole problem in the course of 120 days in a sort of bird's eye view. Since the bird's eye view had brought me to feel that the policy now being prosecuted by the Government is decidedly dangerous and can lead this country into something approaching disaster, I felt that it was my duty today to state my reasons for that belief to the House.
Ever since we returned from Switzerland I have felt that there has been a most dangerous gap between the view of Palestine held here, both by public opinion and by the Cabinet, and the view of Great Britain held in Palestine itself. It is that gap, in my view, which is the major cause of the present danger. If one talks to the leaders of the Hagana, as some of us had the privilege of doing, or talks to those who, if not leaders are responsible for them, one is aware that there are people out there, as I have told Jews in this country, who are playing with very dangerous fire and believe—with excellent historical reason, if I may say so—that the only language a British Government in Palestine understands is the language of force. They believe that they have learned that lesson from the Arab revolt, which, after three years of violence, resulted in a complete appeasement of the Arab claims. It has been our duty to give every possible warning to the people of the Hagana and the people of Palestine that they should not misjudge the temper of this country with regard to that sort of attitude, but that playing at war may really lead them into war. I believe it has been our duty to tell them that as persuasively as we can. But equally it has been our duty to inform the Cabinet that their view of Palestine is as remote from the truth as the view of the Jews in Palestine on Great Britain and the British Government. This view seems to be that there are just a small handful of wicked men in Palestine who are causing all the trouble, and that if these men can be hand picked out of the Jewish community war can be averted.
The view that the Hagana is a "private army"—although I know that this is a phrase which appeared in the report I signed—when in fact it is a very large-scale conscript organisation which includes all the available manpower, both male and female, is as far fetched and absurd as the Hagana view that they could challenge us to war without the risk of war. We in this country underestimate the fanaticism, the ferocity and, I might say, the totalitarianism of Jewish nationalism in Palestine. We underestimate it because we do not like to feel that it is an insuperable problem and we underestimate it as badly as the Hagana underestimates the Government. If I stress that gap it is because in my view it is the major cause of the impasse into which we are now drifting. The arrest of a couple of thousand Jews is only an instance of the lack of understanding between the two.
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister mentioned in passing the Anglo-American Committee's condemnation of terrorism in its Report, and he was fully justified in doing so. Every Member of our Committee was against it and condemned it in the Report, but I think it is reasonable to point out that terrorism was not the only aspect of Palestine today which the Anglo-American Committee pointed out or condemned. Linked with the Anglo-American Committee's condemnation of terrorism was its statement in the first chapter on Palestine, that Palestine is now a semi-military or police State. In another passage the Report describes how Palestine is now ruled without consent from either Jew or Arab. That seems to me a relevant factor to the consideration of the restoration of law and order. We are faced with the intolerable situation in Palestine that at great cost to this country in men, material, and money, we are maintaining a so-called rule detested by Jew and Arab alike. We are facing a situation there where it is the cordial longing of the Jewish and Arab communities to get rid of us as soon as possible and to fight it out between themselves.
When, therefore, the Prime Minister speaks of the necessity of restoring law and order it is important to remember that what he really means is the restoration of the authority of the police, the restoration of the authority of a State hated both by Jew and Arab. Granted that the form of restoration which he has chosen in arresting 2,000 Jews may gain somewhat greater consent from the Arab population, it remains true that, so far as the Jewish population is concerned, no consent to such methods can possibly be achieved. I hesitate to believe that when we talk of the restoration of law and order we on this side of the House are meaning that kind of restoration of law and order which has occurred in past history. We cannot be referring to what has happened in several countries—pushing down by brute force people who are genuinely struggling for their liberation. It would be terrible if our side accepted the slogan: being killed. It was a long time before it was recognised that some right lay on the other side and that it was impossible by sheer force to restore law and order because the community, man, woman and child, was determined not to accept the order we were trying to impose.
I must say frankly to the House that what we are trying to impose on the Jewish community is a re-imposition of the White Paper, something which no Jew in Palestine accepts as either law or order. This affects not only the extremists of the Left or the Centre. No Jew anywhere, least of all Dr. Weitzmann or the Hagana, can be won over to support the Government by the arrest of thousands of their brothers. May I refresh the memory of the House on the subject of our Report, since the Prime Minister referred to our Report in his remarks? In our Report we did bring the attention of the Government—I am referring to Chapter 5 of the Report—to the fact that: conference decision to repeal the White Paper in the shortest possible time.
May I turn now for a few moments to the consideration of the Hagana? I have already stressed the importance of the illusion under which some people seem to be, that the Hagana is a private army or a small group. The only way realistically to look at the Hagana, or at the Jewish community as a whole, is to regard it as a resistance movement. In this country we have had experience of resistance movements because we have been very successful in organising them against our enemies. I would remind the House that many of those who are now leading the Jewish resistance movement received their training first of all in one of the European countries or even actually by the British military authorities in Palestine, where they were trained in sabotage in case Palestine was overrun by the Germans.
It is impossible to crush a resistance movement which has the passive toleration of the mass of the population. A resistance movement can only be destroyed if it is hated by those whom it relies on for succour or refuge. If the passive part of the population who do not go in for violence is sufficiently active to succour and give refuge to the active minority of the community, no Government, however ruthless, can smash that resistance movement or disarm it. That is not only my view. That view was given to us in Cairo and in Palestine by military experts who ought to know. They said: "Frankly, you can't do it if the whole community is one hundred per cent. behind the resistance movement. You can do what you like but you will never get far if it has the support of the people." As the Nazis found, as we have found in the past, as history has always proved, as we found in Ireland and with the Boers in South Africa and as we shall find in this case, where we are fighting against the people's natural rights, those people will be determined to die for those rights. That is the position of the Jews in Palestine. The Jews will die fighting against the White Paper policy rather than give in. He is a foolhardy man who says that by lopping off the tall corn he can destroy the whole field of resistance. He does not do it. He merely creates new resistance.
There is only one way of smashing the resistance movement. That is to liberate it by smashing the conditions out of which it has grown. That way is to give to the people who are willing to die the thing for which they are willing to die. That is what we ought to notice carefully, in regard to the Hagana. I shall not waste the time of the House with sophistical arguments or with trying to determine who is or who is not responsible for terrorism in Palestine. I say bluntly that whoever is responsible for terrorism or for the resistance movement is misguided, and may cost his country dear. I cannot pretend that we can dissociate completely from the rank and file of the Hagana those people are committing acts of terrorism. But the fact remains that the movement is not a resistance movement against the Germans or against the Nazis but against the country which every Jew regards as the best friend of the Jew. That is the fact which makes the situation so terrible in Palestine, so that when one visits the country one's heart is torn by emotional conflict in watching the tragedy going on. A people which trusted and believed in the British protection is now, it believes, forced willy nilly into the shooting of the British soldier. I hope that no one in this House believes that any Jew in Palestine likes doing it any more than the British soldier likes shooting the Jew. It is a terrible matter from both points of view. We are not Nazis, and we are not prepared to take the step of liquidating the Jewish community, which would be necessary in order to crush the resistance movement.
That brings me to my next point. I have risen to second the Motion for the Adjournment because I feel desperately that the Government's present line of action will not work. I assure my right hon. Friend that if for one moment I believed that the arrest of this couple of thousand of people and the Executive of the Jewish Agency would avoid war in Palestine, it would be something I would not oppose, but I am perfectly convinced that it will not. That is why I am here this afternoon to discuss this question. Is it intended to smash the ringleaders? We know what has happened. To begin with I have my doubts whether the ringleaders have been found. The Jewish intelligence knows all about the British while the British military seem to know nothing about the Jews. The Jewish Intelligence Service is among the best in the world. It is extremely difficult to operate in that country against the Jews. One military commander told me that every order of his was in Jewish hands within 24 hours. I am therefore gravely concerned to know whether the Government have succeeded in capturing the ringleaders of the extremists. I shall be extremely surprised if they have.
Whom have they arrested? Practically every trade union leader and Socialist leader in Palestine, practically every leader of the Palestine Labour Party, of trade unions, cooperatives and cooperative retail organisations. They have arrested the whole of what we might call the political Left. These have been chucked into gaol in the belief that they are the leaders of the resistance movement. I cannot pretend to be expert on the resistance movement but I fancy that it is a great deal smarter than to have such obvious leaders.
Secondly, I believe that the Government's intention is to give the moderate Jews a chance. That must be the prayer of every Member of this House. That was the very aim of our Report, to create a basis from which the moderate Jews could regain their lost authority in Palestine and make a real attack upon extremism and liquidate it, in the interests of law and order. All of us must hope for that, but the Government's latest action has made it impossible for Dr. Weitzmann or for anyone associated with the moderate views to do anything. How can he or any leading moderate associate himself with our Government, when 3,000 leading trade unionists and Socialists are in gaol, with no charge against them? If some of them are released and only a couple of hundred are detained, is it expected that the Jewish moderates will then come forward after the big stick has been used in that way, and thank us for the big stick? If they did so, they would have no support.
No one, even it he wanted to, could dare now to associate himself with any bogus Jewish Agency which anybody might try to set up in Palestine to replace existing organisations. That is the reason I agree with the hon. Member who proposed the Adjournment—that the course which the Government are now pursuing can only lead to war. It will not stop the violence. It will precipitate violence. The Jews are a stiff-necked people, as stubborn as some Members of the Government Front Bench. They are tough men, and so are the leaders of the Hagana. It is this terrible obstinacy on both sides that is bringing us into—I see that some hon. Members laugh and smile—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] This is bringing the possibility, not of a large-scale operation, but of shooting from behind walls and windows in Tel Aviv and Haifa at night. No one can eliminate a resistance movement in a large built-up or urban district. The collective settlements may be winkled out one by one. We can bomb them heavily from the air and use heavy artillery and tanks. That is the way to wipe a collective settlement out but we cannot do that in Tel Aviv and Haifa. The more we try to winkle out the members of the resistance movement the tougher the resistance will be. I warn the Government that is the way they are going as a result of this initial act of arresting 2,000 people ostensibly for the reasons of preventing bloodshed.
Why am I so certain? Because of all the military experts in the Middle East, not one pretended that if this plan, which, after all, has been on the cards for some time, were carried out it would stop at the arrest of 2,000 leaders. No, this is the plan for the liquidation of the Hagana, and that means the liquidation of a large number of men, women and children in Palestine.
Perhaps the Cabinet has some special knowledge or some different military advisers. I ask the Cabinet to refer to the secret minutes of our Report which are available in the Foreign Office. Unless I am completely wrong any large-scale arrest of this sort was a preliminary to a large-scale campaign, and no expert I met in Palestine advised that the campaign could be avoided.
On a point of Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I do not understand the point of the argument. If I heard the hon. Gentleman aright, he is now adducing as part of his argument a secret document which he knows by reason of his membership of a Committee, which is otherwise known only to the Cabinet. I cannot believe it would be easy for the rest of us to continue the Debate if that is so, and I submit that it cannot be proper that the Cabinet by such arguments should be compelled to publish what would not otherwise be deemed to be publishable.
I was under the impression that the hon. Gentleman was quoting conversations. Of course, it would not be in Order for him to quote from secret documents.
I was most careful to quote from conversations and was merely referring in passing, to substantiate the fact, to the fact that there were secret minutes available to the Cabinet. I did not quote them.
I would like to say one or two words on the Arab side of this problem. It would be grossly improper for a Member of this House who was not a Jew to regard this as solely a question between the British Government and the Jews. If I believed that by arresting the members of the Jewish Agency and the trade union leaders, by giving the Jews the big stick, we would solve the Arab problem, I might believe there was something in that policy. But I do not believe it. The Arabs have a great respect for honour, pledges and integrity The Arabs already suspect that we evacuated Egypt not, as I believe, because we have great plans for the development of the Middle East, but for reasons of appeasement. The Mufti has made it perfectly clear that once the British Government has liquidated the Jews in Palestine, he will demand and achieve by violence the removal of the British from Palestine. The trouble is that it is believed by Jews and Arabs alike that they are the puppets of a British strategic consideration, and that we do not believe in justice and morality but back them because we want them in a war with Russia. What has ruined Jewish confidence in us is the belief that we are trying to knock them on the head because we want a British G.H.Q. in Palestine instead of in Cairo. We shall not get good relations out of the Jews and Arabs by playing strategy and disregarding morality and justice. I believe our Report gave a perfectly fair basis for a fair deal between Jew and Arab. It deeply distressed me that all the sections of the Report dealing with the Arabs have been left out of account in the discussions, but I realise the difficulties of the Government in implementing that Report.
I have one more point to make. The Government say that they would of course deal with Arab violence. Let me remind the House that Arab violence is organised from outside Palestine. There are no fewer than six Arab States which could organise arms and hire guerillas and send them into Palestine. Although the Government have cracked down on the Hagana, it cannot crack down on these Allies and the armies they have created and built up, these Allies who have said they will use violence to get their way. It is a somewhat one-sided destruction of private armies which is being done by the disarming of the Jews in Palestine, while the Iraqi army, the Transjordan army are all there and the Arab League, with a British brigadier to consult, denounces the Anglo-American Report, and breathes fire and slaughter.
I suggest that in this action of the Government we are drifting into war. We are drifting first into war with the Jews and after that into war with the Arabs. We are losing every friend we had in the Middle East. I have been told that the Jews are in the wrong. I believe that the great Powers should be magnanimous, and, as to some extent this Government is in the wrong, it should show more magnanimity. I should like to remind the House of one of the major reasons for Jewish violence in Palestine. One of the major provocations is the statements previously made by Members of the Government on this subject. It is ironic to think how this Debate would have gone if the Conservative Party had arrested the members of the Jewish Agency. If I might remind the House for a moment of the way the Debate might have gone, I can imagine a speech made by, for instance, the Lord President, considering that in 1939, in debating the White Paper, he made a most important remark. He said:
I should now like to refer to something which the Chancellor said, speaking only a few weeks before our party came to power: That was said in the summer of 1945. Then the Members of the Government had been Members of the Coalition for years. They had access to every State paper and they had weighed the situation and agreed with me and other members of the Commission that the White Paper was wrong. They came to that conclusion and announced it gravely. Let me give one other quotation which refers directly to the problem of the use of British troops in Palestine. The present Minister of State, in a most moving speech, said on that occasion:
When was that speech made?
In the Debate on the White Paper in 1939. I could quote much more violent speeches made on the land regulations of 1940, I could quote speeches made in 1944 and 1945. The point is that the Government must take some responsibility. When they say that it is all the fault of the Jews, who led the Jews to believe that there was that certainty of repeal? It was Members of the Government who did it with the wholehearted support of this party, and the only difference is that the back benches still hold by their pledged word to the Jews on this subject. One reason is because we think it is right and, secondly, because it is bad to break your word, and a very dangerous thing in the modern world. If, then, we speak of a return to law and order, I believe it is a two-sided return which must be achieved. If the Jews must do something, the British Government must do something. Both sides need to bridge that gap of obstinacy which is bringing us into this catastrophic collision between a great and a small people.
May I suggest the following solution to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister? I suggest that he should stop the drift to isolation. War with the Jews will isolate us from a great community whose financial backing we sadly need; it will isolate us from the world more than any war since the Boer War. It is a shameful thing, but we have to take that into consideration. Let us stop that drift to isolation. Let us stop the drift into a war, which neither we nor the Jews want, by the Government announcing their acceptance in principle of the Anglo-American Report, a Report which advised them to carry out their pledged word to the Jews—or rather slightly less than their pledged word to the Jews. Having done that, let them state quite clearly that the implementation of this Report is impossible by the British Government alone. Let them state that they need two things for that: American assistance, and the collaboration of the Jewish Agency in preventing terrorism.
Let them call on the Jewish Agency, in return for our acceptance of what we all believe anyway, to join once again in the suppression of the Irgun Zvei Leumi and the Stern gang. Let them go further. Let them call on the Jewish Agency to do what it can do, namely to tell the Hagana to come out and be what it once was, the territorial force of the Jews in Palestine, cooperating actively with the British Government. That would not be refused. None of those things would be refused, but I must remind the House that no request for Jewish cooperation has been made since the publication of the Anglo-American Report. We have drifted without contact until we are in grievous danger. So I beg the House to agree that here, and here alone, lies the way out of the difficulty—acceptance in principle of that Report, and then to work out with the American Government and with the Jewish Agency the way to implement all those ten Clauses of the Report which hang together and without which we can have no peace in Palestine and no peace in the Middle East.
8.5 p.m.
No one in this House and, I hope, no one in the country outside, should be under any illusion as to the gravity of the situation which we are discussing this evening, or the possible implications which may flow from it. It is true that we on these benches did not support the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) in his demand for this Debate. That was not because we underestimate the gravity of the situation, it was because we thought that at this actual moment the Debate was premature. I am glad to think—and I am sure both mover and seconder of this Motion will agree with me—that we are not discussing any question of an accusation against the behaviour or the actions of the British troops involved. The matter of moment is the orders that they have received, not the way that those orders have been carried out. There have, of course, been searches in Palestine before. There have, after various acts of terrorism, been large-scale arrests. What distinguishes this case from any other is that, for the first time, actions designed to sustain law and order have reached into the very headquarters, the very tabernacle of Jewish administration in Palestine, and amongst those who have been arrested are all, or nearly all, of the leaders of the Jewish community.
We felt it was really impossible to discuss with any effect a situation as grave as that until the House had in its possession what has already been promised today, and that is the evidence which will, for the first time, implicate the leaders of the Jewish Agency with the acts of terrorism that have been carried out in Palestine. I gathered—I think rather differently from the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne—that the implication of the Prime Minister's speech was that such evidence was available, and that such evidence would in due time be given to us. I can only say that if, when we have an opportunity of reading that evidence and of studying it—
And of hearing any reply.
And, if you like, of hearing any reply; if, indeed, then we feel that some of these leaders have been implicated in some of these acts, then it will not be what the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) said a case of our declaring war upon the Jewish community, it will be their having declared war upon us. I do not think that in any quarter of the House there can be any division about the necessity for suppressing the sort of violence that we have seen in Palestine in the last few weeks. I regard arguments which seek to justify some of those acts on the grounds that the community to which the criminals belong feels deeply, either on what is being done, or on the delay in doing anything only as casuistry. But in the particular circumstance of Palestine, I regard it as the most dangerous casuistry.
rose —
I did not interrupt the hon. Gentleman in his speech, so perhaps he will let me continue. Any argument that can be applied to violence by Jews, because they firmly believe in the Jewish cause in Palestine, can equally be applied to violence by Arabs, because they believe in the Arab case with equal determination, and it seems to me that all of us have to agree that in Palestine there is no solution of the Palestine problem by terrorism, and no solution by yielding to terrorism. We have heard with great emotion the sincere speeches of the hon. Gentlemen who have spoken, and their reference to Jewish feeling. At the same time, none of us in this House, especially those like myself and many others who have relations and friends serving in Palestine, can ignore what their feelings must be. None of us can forget that we have during the last few weeks seen perpetrated in Palestine acts for which there could be no excuse. There have been such events as the horrible murder in the quarters of the Airborne Division and the kidnapping of officers, and there is the fact that there are today in this country still three families to whom every minute must be an agony of suspense as to the fate of a loved one. All this must leave some impression on the minds of hon. Members. I say it is the responsibility of this Government—of any Government which is in power today—to take those steps which are necessary, and which they are advised are necessary, to prevent the repetition of acts of that kind. The action which they take should be taken without any prejudice to the eventual decision on the long term policy which is to be employed.
I cannot join in any condemnation of the present Government on the ground that before they took this action, they did not consult the United States. The responsibility is theirs. Up to now, the results of any action in Palestine have always fallen upon us, and upon us alone; today the results fall upon us, and on us alone. It must be for this Government, and for this Government alone, to take the steps necessary to protect life and property, and to repress violence. It is difficult, in the absence of evidence—evidence connecting the leaders of the Jewish Agency with these events which we all deplore—to discuss the present situation. During the years when I was at the Colonial Office, there were, at various times, sporadic acts of violence by the Jewish community, horrible acts some of them, such as the murder of Lord Moyne, to which reference has been made—
By the Jewish community?
By Jews. I was quite convinced during that time and during those episodes that they did not in any way involve the Jewish Agency, and the major part of the Jewish community. They were the action of those two minor extremist groups, the Stern group and the Irgun Zvei Leumi. But I must confess that, to an outsider such as I am, merely reading newspaper reports of what has happened in Palestine in the last few days, there would appear to have been a change and some of the incidents which have taken place seem on a much bigger scale, involving more men and a higher degree of planning than the sporadic incidents of the years when I was in office. We cannot be blamed for feeling that what before were the actions of the Stern group or the Irgun Zvei Leumi group may today be the actions of the Hagana. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne told us to remember that it was a disciplined force. I agree it is disciplined, well-disciplined, and that it will obey its orders. But, the mere fact that it is disciplined and will obey orders, and has been trained in how to execute the orders, makes it all the more dangerous, if the orders given to it are wrong. Neither of the hon. Gentlemen who have spoken will deny that although the Jewish Agency not only had no connection with, but, I believe, had the greatest reprobation for, the other two extremist groups, they have a very close connection with the Hagana, a connection they themselves will not deny. If there is evidence in existence to show that the Hagana has been responsible for some of the outrages which have taken place in Palestine in the last few weeks, then the Jewish Agency will have to disclaim the actions of a body for which, hitherto, it has had a large measure of responsibility.
Since it is difficult to discuss this matter today in the absence of that evidence, I urge the Prime Minister to give us that evidence as soon as possible, and as fully as possible. No one can deny the effect that the action of the Government must have had, not only upon Jews in Palestine, but upon Jews all over the world. It clearly must have an effect which at the moment might well prejudice any chance in the future, of a settlement of the Palestine question. I believe that not only in the world as a whole, but in Palestine too, if evidence can really be offered, and is really offered, which implicates these men and these leaders in outrages which every one must deplore, then no one will condone the action that they have taken, and no one will condemn the action of the Government. But we must have that evidence soon, and we must have it in full, or else the ripples from this great stone which has been cast into the waters, will go to the ends of the world and may swamp, not only our chances in Palestine, but our friendships across the Atlantic.
I press again on the Government what we have pressed several times in the last few weeks. That is a request, which these grave events have reinforced, for an early announcement of their decision on the Palestine Committee. I regard the matter we are discussing tonight as too grave, as having too many consequences for our own people in Palestine, and for our own position in the world, to use it as a opportunity to make party capital for ourselves by the reference to the pledges of the Government which have already been made. I refer to that only for this reason. Surely the fact that a year ago they were in a position to give such categorical statements of what they were prepared to do in Palestine, leaves less excuse for such a delay when the time for that decision has come. It is now over two months since the Report of that Committee was received. During that time there has been I am afraid, a steady deterioration in the position in Palestine. The publication of the Report itself, whether it was rejected or accepted by the Government, would earn an increase in the hatred of the Arab world. The events of the last few days have earned an increase in the hatred by the Jewish world and even today solutions, which might have been possible in the beginning of May, are, if not impossible, certainly more difficult. Every day this delay goes on, it is going to be more and more difficult to find a solution. I am not saying what solution the Government should propose. But whether one believes in the Report of the Anglo-American Commission, or is against it. I think all of us will say "Let us know." Even if they decide in a way we dislike, we would rather have it than that they should not decide at all.
I know that the Government have a particular difficulty in this matter. It was an Anglo-American Committee, an Anglo-American Report, and they want to make it an Anglo-American decision. We know perhaps of the difficulties in doing that. Administrative machinery in America does not always run on the same lines, or, I will suggest, not always with the same speed as it does in this country. But the Prime Minister can wait little, if any longer, even for the benefits of a joint decision. The sands are running out and the time is passing in which to make any decision of any value. In a few weeks, nothing can avert the war in Palestine to which attention has been called. Therefore, we on this side of the House urge that we should have that decision quickly, that we should be able to debate it in this House, and that this House should be able to come to a decision on what our future policy in Palestine is to be. Once having come to that conclusion, we can proceed to put it into execution, without fear and without favour, in justice to both sides, and in determined strength to carry it through.
8.22 p.m.
I do not think that anybody in this House, or, I believe, in the country, would ever justify any of these acts of violence to which reference has been made. What some of us on this side of the House feel acutely distressed about is the source of the acts of violence, what has caused them, and whether these causes cannot be eradicated. Although, of course, we want the people who have committed the acts of violence to be punished, we know perfectly well that the acts of violence are bound to go on if the canker is not cut out. We feel very distressed about that canker, because of the history of our Party, which forms the present Government. I have been a member of the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party for 16 years, and throughout that period the party has passed decision after decision about a Jewish national home in Palestine, and, more recently, about the immigration of all Jews who wanted and needed it, into Palestine. As has been pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman), the present Chancellor of the Exchequer as late as 1945 said:
What has happened between April, 1945, and now—not just recently, but up to a few months ago? What happened was that, in July, the Labour Government came into power with a large majority. There was no change in the Jewish position, either in Europe or Palestine. There was a tremendous change in the spirits of the Jews throughout the world, who thought that after the promises that had been received from the party that had become a Government, those promises would be put into action, as we all believed, and as we have been busy doing, as a Government, on the home front. The Jews were inspired to believe that there would be free immigration into Palestine of that miserable remnant in Europe of the people who had been almost completely destroyed by the Nazis. None of that has taken place.
All that has happened was that first of all an Anglo-American Committee was set up. I venture to remind the Government that as early as last October I asked the Prime Minister whether he did not feel that a postponement of taking any action to endorse the policy of the Government, and of the party, would make it impossible for the Jewish Agency or the moderate Jews to control the terrorists? He answered that nothing would have any effect for a short time. The Anglo-American Committee was set up; it reported unanimously. Two months have passed and still no action has been taken. Illegal immigration has gone on, and that has been roundly condemned this afternoon by the Prime Minister. What is that illegal immigration? It is that of people whose last hope has been to get into Palestine.
I would like the House to know that some of these illegal immigrants are men who have been in concentration camps throughout the war, and two of whom have a document signed by General Alexander pointing out that they had helped British airmen to escape from concentration camps. These are two of the illegal immigrants who are being condemned. Others of the illegal immigrants are people who fought in the Forces, in the British Army, and were taken prisoner. There has been much more trouble in Palestine than has been stressed or expressed in the Press. The largest Jewish communal settlement is practically in ruins. That settlement contained people who have lost their homes, people who have lost everything; some of them have been wounded—women and children whose husbands and fathers are now fighting in the British Forces. Indeed, Shertok, one of the heads of the Jewish Agency, who has been arrested, has today a son in the British Forces in Belgium.
The Prime Minister said this afternoon that His Majesty's Government, as a mandatory, have an international duty to maintain law and order in Palestine and full authority to take all necessary steps to that end. As the mandatory authority, and as the Goverment who, in no uncertain terms when they were not the Government, undertook to see that Jewish immigration went on, they have also, I suggest, mandatory powers to see that the Jewish people have fair play, at any rate particularly in the short-term programme of the Anglo-American Committee, in seeing to it that those emigrants who most need it shall be enabled to go to Palestine as legal entrants. I say again that although no one could deplore violence or the hideous incidents that have happened more than I myself, we must be warned in time that unless we put an end to the cause of the horror, nothing we can do will stop the horror from being increased a hundredfold until we have in Palestine a bath of blood.
8.31 p.m.
I hope that I shall say nothing that may exacerbate any feelings or that may seem to underrate the gravity of the occasion; and I hope I shall say nothing that may seem to bring against His Majesty's Government the charge of underestimating the gravity of the factors with which they are now confronted. I thought, indeed, the hon. Gentleman who seconded the Motion—I think it was he; it may have been the mover—was rather less than just to the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, in suggesting that he, the Prime Minister, had spoken as if he did not think the matter was of any such very immense gravity. I did not think that charge was quite just. I think I was the only hon. Member on this side of the House, and I think also the only Member not more or less Zionist in sympathy, who facilitated the initiation of this Debate. Though I am fully conscious how unimportant to anybody but myself was my personal motive in that individual action, I think perhaps the House will forgive me for spending two minutes to indicate that my reasons, my objects, and my method were not the same as those of most of the other 39 hon. Members who stood up. I suppose, if we are to take the normal conventional interpretation of Parliamentary action, that they stood up for the most part by way of reprehending the statement of His Majesty's Government. So far as I could judge it, with the great rapidity with which one has to judge a State document of that sort when read aloud, I was not dissatisfied with it, or, at least, I was not so dissatisfied that I should naturally have moved or collaborated in moving the Adjournment.
But all through this Parliament—and hon. Members who were here in the last will do me the justice of saying that all through the last, long as it was—I have, very ineffectively but, I think, pretty continuously, argued for the frequent full, lengthy debating of this particular subject and of all other subjects of this sort—the great subjects of external relations and defence, which seem to me infinitely more important than questions of nationalisation and so on. Our decisions will be wiped out anyway unless we answer these great questions, at any rate with 51 per cent. of rightness. Unless about the external questions we are at least as right as that, none of these other questions will interest us or our children. It seemed to me that for one who, as I have done, has continually pressed, especially in this Parliament, that this subject ought to be debated, to say now that it ought not—that, I thought, would be hardly defensible and on the whole, though very conscious of fallibility, I am inclined to think that in that I was right.
I do not wish now to raise all the great general questions that might be raised, and which I think mostly were indicated by the previous speeches—the great questions of Zionism, the relation between Palestine and distress in Europe, the legal questions, where I think the hon. Gentleman was less than fair in some of his arguments and assumptions about mandatories and co-trustees. I am not the most competent person in this Assembly to debate these legal matters, though on occasion I should wish to debate them, and I think I could question some of his arguments. But there are one or two great general questions which, I think, however much we wish to be short, we must now ask ourselves. One is the general question of Zionism. I have never hidden my conviction that Zionism is one of the great mistakes of human history. I do not want to argue that; I think that is so, and I have always thought so. I have thought so more with every day that has passed, and I have certainly thought so more with every word that fell from the lips of the two hon. Gentlemen who moved this Motion, most especially when they told us how superior is the Zionist intelligence, in every sense, I gathered, and when they indicated that, at least, one reason for that was that no Zionist felt any scruples about any information that came into his possession in the service of the British Government.
I hope the hon. Gentleman is not attributing that remark to me. I did not make that statement.
I think I am in the recollection of the House—I am sorry the hon. Member who seconded the Motion is not here—but I believe I have not deformed or misinterpreted what he said, or the proper and natural implication of what he said—
The hon. Gentleman will, no doubt, speak for himself. I speak for myself. The hon. Member, in the part of his speech which I ventured to interrupt, used the word "they," including me in what he said. I therefore remind him that I said no such thing.
I am sorry the hon. Gentleman thinks I misinterpreted him. I said "they said," and I was going to refer to some of the things which they said. As soon as I began to say what one of them said, the hon. Gentleman got up and interrupted. It was not my fault that I had not time to go on. He said—if "he" suits him better, and it was he who said this one—that, if we were not very careful, there would be flames which would be dangerous to this country's life all over the world, and his seconder echoed that. I suppose we are conscious that the British people have a great history, have been supposed to be a great and proud people, who have just played, we may fairly say, the greatest part in winning what people call the greatest of wars, which is always the last. The British people have been proud, and the British people are now conscious of some of the weaknesses its Government now has in international affairs. It was the hon. Gentleman who told us that, if we were not careful, there would be flames dangerous to our policy in every country of the world, and his seconder threatened us that we might not be able to get the financial cooperation that we wanted elsewhere. Some of us have sometimes argued that this kind of allegation is not true and is not fair. We shall find it more difficult to use that argument if speeches of that sort are to be made, and it is my belief that speeches of that sort are implicit in Zionism, and, therefore, I have always thought that Zionism, in general, was a great mistake.
I have always been quite sure of this, and I am now more sure than ever, that one particular implication of Zionism was a great mistake; that is, the bundling together as two halves of one sum, to which it is supposed there is somewhere a solution, of ( a ) the difficulties we have got in Palestine, and ( b ) the miseries of Jews in other countries. It seems to me that there is no moral or logical excuse for bundling up these two things, and, when I first read the report of the Anglo-American Committee, I felt certain at once that it would not do as a basis from which we should get to more law and order. I still very much fear I was right, and the reason why I had that immediate decision was the 100,000 immediate immigration certificates which were recommended. I cannot believe that it can be right that the force of one Power should be used to compel a small ancient society, settled in a very small country, to go on admitting indefinitely an immigration for whose management, control and choice it has no part whatever.
The hon. Gentleman is discussing the whole Palestine problem. After all, this Motion is very wide already.
I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry if I have been too wide. What I am trying to make plain is that hon. Gentlemen who take the opposite view to ours must do us the justice of the belief that it goes as deep into our moral perception and our intellectual ratiocinations as their view does, and that unless it is fully understood that some of us believe that the whole population in Palestine has rights, then the two sides of the Debate becomes mutually unintelligible.
I will leave that point and will come to the exemplification of it which is directly and wholly relevant, and perhaps the most direct and wholly relevant thing in the whole of this Debate, and that is the immigration of Jews into Palestine. I do not want to argue how or why there are so many Jews who wish to go there.
This Motion is devoted to the cause of the present troubles, and the hon. Gentleman cannot go further than that.
In my submission, Sir, it is the cause of the present trouble and what I wish to indicate is this, that when we have suggestions of possible solution, I cannot believe that this thing is so simple as to be a problem and, therefore, to have a solution, but if there is to be any chance of a basis from which we may move towards easier times, I would suggest that it can be only by taking those 100,000 elsewhere, by not leaving disposable the argument that this population is doomed to misery and destruction unless it goes there and there only, otherwise the forces there must lead to outrage in the circumstances as they at present stand, that outrage must lead to repression. And the reason why it was necessary, in my judgment, to hold this Debate, is that it should be made clearly known that the House of Commons does not believe that any kind of surrender to outrage is as a general rule, politic or moral, or that this is any exception to that general rule, that, indeed, this case is an extreme case of the general rule, and not an exception to it.
8.43 p.m.
Unfortunately, the hon. Member for the Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) was apparently not in Order when making the various references he did make and I will not follow him, although I should like to, in reply to the allegations which have been made in certain quarters and which, of course, are entirely unfounded. But the question which this House has before it at the present time is one which does depend to a considerable extent upon whether we as a mandatory Power have fulfilled the obligations incumbent upon us and whether, in taking action against the Jewish Agency in Palestine, we are at all justified, not having done that which was due from us in order to establish our position under the Mandate. There is not the slightest doubt, and cannot be the slightest doubt, in anybody's mind that the Jewish Agency stands on a recognised legal footing in this question and to enter into the headquarters of a co-partner is nothing short of committing an offence which is entirely contrary to the terms of the Mandate. We cannot expect the Jewish people who have settled in Palestine, or any Jews in any part of the world, to stand by with equanimity and watch the arrest of those leaders who have done such excellent service from the time the Mandate was introduced, who encouraged the tremendous effort on the part of the Palestinian Jewish settlement in the course of the recent war, who were applauded from all sides for having provided by means of their efforts not only a miracle in the development of Palestine but a record of service the like of which had not been experienced anywhere else in the Middle East in the Allied cause.
Is the hon. Gentleman familiar with this sentence in the Report of the Anglo-American Committee?
"We recognise that until comparatively recently, efforts were made by the Jewish Agency to curb attacks; we regret that these efforts appear to have ceased. We believe that those responsible for the working of the Jewish Agency—a body of great power and influence over the Jews in Palestine—could do a great deal towards putting an end to outrages such as we have described."
My hon. Friend has certainly misunderstood what I said. I said that the Jewish Agency, in which was vested the right to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home, assisted in the course of the years from the commencement of the Mandate until now, in a development of the land which has been described as a miracle by all who have seen it, and in the course of the war, gave their sons and daughters of a neutral country, Palestine—some 30,000 people—in order that the blood of Allied Forces should not be shed, and in order that they might preserve something like a strong position for the Allied cause in the Middle East.
In spite of the publication of the White Paper which has been condemned from every side of the House, which the late Earl Lloyd George, together with everybody else, in every party, who knew anything about the Mandate, had described as being a complete betrayal of the Jewish people in Palestine, the Jewish settlement in Palestine was practically the only oasis of active help in the desert of the Middle East. It was from that settlement that these men who are now being accused sent some of their forces, the Hagana itself, in order to assist the Allies when it came to a question of attacking Syria. It was from this Hagana that there came some of the boldest and most courageous spirits who were at the service of the Allied cause. My hon. Friends know very well that so far as the Hagana was concerned, it was a movement which was encouraged by the Administration; it was practically created by the Administration because it gave some measure of possibility to the settlers to save themselves from attack which might come in their direction. How can we possibly deprive men, women and children of the possibility of saving themselves from attacks similar to those which took place under the aegis of that great and noble friend of the Allied cause, the ex-Mufti? It would be sheer disaster to those colonies and colonists. It is wrong to imagine that it is a terrorist body, or that it is a body which has indulged in the serious attacks on people which it itself condemned.
Surely the position is this. We have committed a great wrong in Palestine. We have told the Jewish settlers there that if they do what is necessary they will have a national home, which will be an appropriate place for the Jewish community to carry on its Jewish life. How on earth it is possible for us to go back on that I really do not know; and I cannot understand what arguments in support of that point of view could be adduced from any of these benches. We told the people: "You work, you build, you do what is an economic necessity and wrest life from the desert and you will be creating a national home." The moment that national home was in the course of being created, we said to the people concerned, "You cannot have your wife or your children there. You cannot have anyone of your relatives at all in that land. We are going to hold a committee." Ultimately my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said more or less: "Very well. I will stand or fall by what the joint committee decides." [ Interruption. ] More or less—otherwise he would not have had the committee. When that committee comes back and says one thing is imminently necessary, namely, to permit 100,000 of the wrecks from Europe to go into Palestine, we cannot deny those families that right. It is their national home. Who can possibly talk about illegal immigration into that "home"? What is a home? What is a national home?
We are really basing our discussion tonight on the disturbances in Palestine.
It is because of the feeling created in that manner that I say today, to arrest the Jewish Agency, to arrest the Socialists, the trade unionists, the whole of the persons, whom we have praised year in and year out, is literally nonsense. I ask my right hon. Friends who are dealing with this matter to regard that action as nonsense, and to realise their mistake before it is too late. Neither I nor anybody else want to see a single drop of blood shed. Of course not. Nobody wants to see a single hair of a single British soldier hurt. Of course not. The way to remedy the position is to have a full Debate on the matter. Let us decide on the real issues which, in my view, are absolutely clear. Let us do the right thing by the people who did the right thing by us. That is the point of view I wish to put before the House. I will not take up much time, because there are many other speakers who wish to take part in the Debate, and I appreciate their feelings. I ask my right hon. Friends to realise, before it is too late, that justice is what is wanted—justice purely and simply. If justice is given to the Jewish national home the House may take it that the greatest force in support of civilisation and of this country will have been established for ever in the Middle East.
8.54 p.m.
I desire to remind the House that the point at issue in this Debate is not Jewish immigration into Palestine, or the White Paper. The point at issue is the action which His Majesty's Government have taken recently in Palestine. I do not agree that the arrest of some of the members of the Jewish Agency and others is war against the Jewish national home. I regard it rather as a regrettable but necessary disciplinary action against Zionist lawbreakers, for it is in the interest of the Jewish national home in Palestine as much as of anybody else that there should be the rule of law in that country.
rose —
No, I have not got very much time. I do not think I ever heard a Motion for the Adjournment moved and seconded in this House in abler speeches than those made today, but, stripped of all their eloquence and all their rhetoric, what is the policy which the two hon. Gentlemen have advocated? It is nothing less than a policy of appeasement of violence in Palestine, and that is a strange policy to be advocated from the benches opposite. It is proposed to hand over Palestine to the Hagana, and it is said that the Hagana is not a private army because it is numerous. But whether an army is a private army or not does not depend upon its size, it depends upon the authority by which it exists. The Hagana has not any longer the authority of the mandatory Power, which is the only legal authority for the Government of Palestine, and I submit that it would be an abdication of Britain's responsibility as mandatory Power to hand over Palestine to the Jewish agency and the Hagana at this moment, with their policy of violence.
My approach to this problem is different from that of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). I want to remind the House that in 1940 the Jews of the world faced the greatest menace that has ever threatened them in their tragic history, and that is saying a great deal. Jews everywhere were in real danger of sharing the fate of the Jews of Germany and of Poland, and one country alone, supported by her sister Dominions and her Colonies, stood in the way of this danger to Jewish survival—Great Britain. At a time when this country is being vilified in Palestine, in America and in this country by certain people, it is only right that I, speaking as a Jew should remember this fact. I do not believe that you can regard the question of Palestine in isolation. Nor do I think the Jews should forget what they owe to Great Britain. Let them remember, too, that not only did Britain save them in the war, but also that it is in Great Britain and in her Dominions that the Jew holds a position of equality, not only political but social, which he does not enjoy in some of the countries which are vilifying this country for its action in Palestine. I support the action which has been taken against the Jewish Agency, because I believe that His Majesty's Government could not do differently from what they have done. After all, the first duty of a Government, surely, is to govern; and they must stand in Palestine, as they do here and elsewhere, for law and order. It was for the rule of law that this country took part in the war.
Not only is it right that this country should stand for law and order, but it is in the interest of the Jew, more than in that of anybody else, that law and order should prevail, because it is only where law and order prevail that the Jew can possibly hope to survive. When we are told that Hagana is not a terrorist force, let us remember that Hagana has been responsible recently for blowing up bridges, and for acts of sabotage, all contrary to the law of the land. The Jew can survive only where there is law and order. The methods of the terrorist are those which have in the past been responsible for the pogrom and Jewish persecution. Therefore, if one takes a broad and long view of where Jewish interests lie, it surely must be, that this dangerous thing which has reared itself in Palestine should be put down, and that the Jew, as a Jew, is interested, in Palestine and everywhere in the eradication of lawlessness.
I am glad to have had the opportunity to intervene in this Debate to indicate to the House that not all Jews in this country and elsewhere have forgotten the debt they owe to Great Britain, that not all Jews have forgotten what the Jew really stands for; and it is because I have faith in the justice, in the tolerance, and in the sense of fair play, not only of this Government towards the Jew, but of any British Government, that I tonight welcome the opportunity to say that I support the action which His Majesty's Government have taken.
9.4 p.m.
I should like, in my very few remarks, to show that I am a back bencher who is going to give the fullest possible support to the Government in the action which has been taken. I do so without any qualms of conscience, because I have been perfectly consistent, right through, over this whole matter of the future of Palestine and Zionism. In 1939 I did not vote with the rest of my party on the matter of the White Paper. I supported the White Paper, and I have been absolutely consistent, right through, in saying that the action hitherto taken by my party, has been wrong. I know that there are members of the Government who are in a very difficult position, because some of them have made statements in the past which now are rather difficult to square with the action that they have got to take. I would beg them to be firm, and to show determination in the line they have taken, because it is necessary it should be taken.
The Government cannot permit terrorism in a country in respect of which we are the mandatory Power. When I was recently in Palestine, the kind of thing which I heard said all over the place by some extreme sections of the Jews was; "The Arabs got the White Paper through violence. We shall get the abolition of restricted immigration by the same method." In this respect the Government are perfectly right in striking at the Jewish Agency. When I arrived in Jerusalem one evening in January the police headquarters was lying in the street. Not very long before the whole place had been blown up by dynamite and many people killed. The leaders were not arrested. They were protected, and there was very strong suspicion that Jewish Agency people protected them. For that reason I say that the Government are perfectly right to take the action which they have taken.
I do not quite understand the point. Is the hon. Member suggesting that what was done then was done through the Jewish Agency?
I am suggesting that those who are committing these crimes are being protected by the Jewish Agency.
Has the hon. Member any evidence?
It is an outrageous lie.
I say there is very strong reason to believe that. The Government probably have the evidence. I am satisfied that the Government have information which gave them reason to take the action which they have taken, and I will leave it at that.
On a point of Order. Has the hon. Member as a back bencher got more information than any other back bench Member?
That is not a point of Order. An hon. Member is responsible to himself for what he says.
I can assure the House that I have seen no secret documents. I am entirely responsible for the statements I make. I will go further and say that the Zionist movement has been adopting the tactics of their prosecutors, the Nazis, and that the life of very moderate Jews in Palestine is now being made extremely difficult, if not intolerable, by what they have to submit to in the form of persecution and pressure. There are plenty of moderate Jews, and I have met several, who say that they repudiate the action taken by extreme Zionists who have captured the movement which is as dear to them as to any other Jew.
The Government must therefore resist this wave of terrorism and approach the whole problem on a much broader basis, and not force on the Arabs responsibility for taking a large number of immigrants from Central Europe, but to make other countries responsible, this country and America, to play their part. I greatly fear that the Jews are going the way they have sometimes gone before in their history, the same way as in the tragedy which befell them in the days of the Maccabees; they went then through a terrible trial, because they would not compromise and adopted a philosophy of all or nothing. That tragedy will come to them again, or some of them, if they do not, at this eleventh hour, relent.
9.10 p.m.
I did not intend to intervene in this Debate, nor do I now intend to indulge in any form of controversy, for this does not appear to me to be a proper occasion for debating the recommendations of the Anglo-American Palestine Committee on which. I had the honour to serve. The only reason that I have risen to my feet—lest it might be thought that I was in entire agreement with all the statements made by the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman), who I regret to see is not in his place at the present moment. A great deal of evidence was given before that Committee in different parts of the world, and all I desire to say is this: I do not recollect having heard evidence from military experts of the nature to which the hon. Member referred, and, in particular, according to my recollection—and it will be appreciated that I have had no opportunity of looking at my notes, but my recollection is pretty clear—no evidence was given before that Committee in public or in private to the effect that any order given by high military authority, even if marked "top secret," was immediately known to the Jewish Agency.
I distinctly remember hearing the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) say "in personal conversations he had when meeting people in Palestine."
He referred to two things—to personal conversations and also to evidence given before the Committee. So far as evidence given before the Committee was concerned, I can speak; I cannot of course speak for the conversations which the hon. Member had personally. I am not challenging that, but I think that it is right to say that I cannot agree with the hon. Member's recollection, if it be his recollection, that we were told in evidence in private that instructions and orders given by high military authority and marked "top secret" were immediately communicated to the Jewish Agency. I have risen to make that point absolutely clear. If it was clear already, there was no reason for me to speak, but I certainly thought that the hon. Member for East Coventry said that we had received evidence of that sort.
9.14 p.m.
I am sure that hon. Members recognise that this is a Debate of a most serious character, and I think that most of us who have listened to it will agree that it is a good thing that this discussion should have taken place in the House of Commons. Some of us hope that our expressions of opinion in this Debate may have some effect in persuading the Government to draw back from this action which they have taken. Even if that is not so, I believe that this Debate may have a good effect, even at this terribly late hour, in perhaps persuading our Jewish friends and colleagues in Palestine that there are some persons in this House who are prepared to speak on behalf of their cause and in their name. Very few speeches have been made in support of the Government's policy, and one of them came from the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price). His attitude is perfectly consistent. It is perfectly proper for anyone who supported the White Paper of 1939 to support this action by the Government, but what we are here to discuss is the attitude of those who opposed, and not only opposed, but violently opposed, the White Paper of 1939.
Again one of the main arguments from the other side of the House to justify this action is that it is the suppression of violence and an effort to restore law and order. That kind of argument, put as simply as that, might appeal to hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House, but on this side we have another tradition. We have a longer tradition of trying to discover, when peoples engage in acts of violence, what is the cause of that violence. We have also a longer tradition of trying to discover, whenever there are great disturbances, what has provoked the people. In this case the people who are accused by the Government of instituting violence against law and order, are men we know well, men who have come to our Socialist conferences, and who are colleagues of ours. These are the people who are accused, and that is the quarrel between the back benchers of this Party with the Government Front Bench that we are now debating.
No one in this House envies the terrible task which British soldiers in Palestine have to discharge today. Everyone deplores that innocent soldiers should have been murdered and killed on account of political disturbances which are certainly not of their making. However, it is not sufficient in this Debate solely to direct our attention to these acts of violence. No one who read the report of the Anglo-American Committee could fail to recognise that an explosive situation was being prepared in Palestine, and that if there was not soon a decisive change of policy, then an explosion would take place. Therefore, if we are to discover the cause of the situation and discover a solution which will make it possible for British soldiers no longer to be killed in Palestine, it is necessary for us also to apply ourselves to the general policy pursued by the Government which partly provoked these actions.
First of all, I should like to refer to the specific and detailed question which was put to the Government by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) at the beginning of this discussion. He asked for the precise evidence on which the military authorities have acted in Palestine. Leaders of the Jewish Agency have been arrested. The Prime Minister states that in some way they were associated with the Hagana, but it is not stated in explicit terms that they were associated with the two terrorist organisations. On the other hand, let us take the statement of the High Commissioner for Palestine. He says he is taking action against those who instigated the cases of violence. He is taking action against the Jewish Agency leaders, and, therefore, we must only assume both from the High Commissioner's announcement, and the conjunction of sentences in the Prime Minister's statement, that they have fresh evidence that the Jewish army leaders are associated not merely with the Hagana but with the terrorist organisations.
If that is the charge it should be stated openly. Proof should be given, and if that is the reason which has persuaded the Government to give these orders to the military authorities in Palestine then the proof must already exist. The Government must have it in their files, and if they have it in their files they should give it to the House of Commons. If they do not give it to the House, then this House condones actions by the military authorities in Palestine for which there are no stated reasons. Therefore, I suggest that it is only fair when the Prime Minister replies that he will tell us precisely what is the exact evidence of the association of the Jewish Agency with the terrorist organisations on which the military authorities have acted. If he cannot tell us that I suggest it is only fair to the Jewish Agency to acquit them of the charge of having been associated with the terrorist organisations.
The next question I should like to ask the Prime Minister is what general new evidence the Government have had of the activities of the Jewish Agency which have persuaded them to take this action since the Report made by the Anglo-American Committee. This is an important question, because, if the only evidence of the criminality of the Jewish Agency and its leaders which the Government possesses is, as the Prime Minister suggested in his speech, association with the Hagana, then that evidence has been in the possession of the Government for many months past, in fact for years past. If that is the only new evidence I suggest that it is not evidence to excuse this violent action which has been taken by the Government. What did the Committee report? It gave a faithful and open account of the structure, strength, and power of the Hagana. The Committee also said, bluntly and plainly, that one of the causes of the distressing situation in Palestine or, rather, one of the symptoms, was the decline in cooperation between the Jewish Agency and the British Government. The Report went on to say that if the essential cooperation was to be established between the Jewish Agency and the British Government then there would have to be drastic changes in policy.
The Prime Minister, in his statement today, said that the Government had given serious warnings to the Jewish Agency. It is also true that the Agency has given serious warning to the Government. They have given serious warnings on the question of terrorism. The evidence is to be found in the Report of the Committee, where there is an account of a conversation which took place between Mr. Ben Gurion and Mr. Shertok, of the Jewish Agency, with the Government about certain acts of terrorism which took place recently. Page 41 of the Report quotes an extract from the "Palestine Post," and states:
Despite all the outbreaks and acts of violence, I claim that in Palestine the Jews have been patient. They have been patient for 20 years under the threat of Arab violence. They were patiently ready to accept, in 1936, the division of Palestine according to the Peel Committee's Report, although that was far less than what they wanted. They patiently accepted, because of the threat of war, the White Paper of 1939. They did not take action against that White Paper, despite all the incitements to take action against it given by right hon. Gentlemen now on the Government Front Bench. They have been patient all these years. They were patient when a Labour Government came into office. They were patient when the Anglo-American Committee made its report. They were patient even when the American Government made a declaration about that Committee's Report, and we failed to do so. I believe that is a record for patience. If I were a Jew I would certainly begin to feel a little impatient at the present time. If I were a Jew and lived in Palestine, I would be a member of Hagana, and would regard this action which has been taken against the Jewish Agency as action taken against the whole of the Jewish community.
That is why I say this is the most serious Debate which has taken place in the House since this Parliament was gathered together. It is the most serious Debate because, if we pursue this action, we shall drift into war with the Jews, the most terrible kind of war in which this country could be engaged, a war between peoples who should be allies, and who want to be allies and friends. Therefore, I appeal with all the earnestness at my command to the Prime Minister to say tonight that he is prepared to accept in principle not merely one item of the Anglo-American Committee's Report, but all the items of that Report. If he says that, I believe we may be able to draw back from this terrible catastrophe into which this country and this Government are drifting. But if we go on, we shall be engaged in a long, wretched and miserable war, a war that will leave a black and indelible stain on the record of this great Government.
9.27 p.m.
The issue before the House is this. Were the Government justified in arresting the leaders of the Jewish Agency? I hope to keep to that argument, because that is the point at issue. Were the leaders of the Jewish Agency implicated in these acts of terrorism or other illegal acts in Palestine? I do not know. No hon. Member knows, except Ministers in the Government. If it turns out, from the statement that is to be made tonight, or later on when the evidence comes to hand, that the leaders of the Jewish Agency were implicated in terrorist activities; then I support the Government I would add further that the people of this country would support the Government, because the people of this country are disgusted with the acts of terrorism which have been going on in Palestine. Therefore, on the face of it, unless we hear to the contrary, this action of the Government was police action carried out with military forces to put down illegal violence. And illegal violence should be put down, unless the Government are to abdicate and hand over Palestine to chaos.
It has been urged by some hon. Members that the people who committed violence in Palestine are fighting for liberty. They are fighting to establish their own policy by force. Nobody is attacking their liberty. If, as has been stated by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman), this is a war, I ask hon. Members who started the war. It makes a great difference who started the war. The British Government certainly did not start the war in Palestine. It has been stated that this is a resistance movement on the part of the Jews in Palestine, and that it cannot be put down because it has the passive or active support of the people of Palestine. In fact, it has not the support of the people in Palestine, because the people in Palestine are 600,000 Jews, and 1,200,000 Arabs, and there is not a single Arab who supports it. Therefore, that argument falls to the ground. Another extraordinary statement that has been made is that the Jewish terrorists were forced to fight our soldiers. Did anybody ever hear such a perversion of the argument? They were forced to fight our soldiers—forced by whom? The hon. Member for Coventry East (Mr. Crossman) said this.
I did not say that they were forced to fight; I said that they did not want to fight our soldiers and fought them reluctantly.
I am sorry, but I took it down, and the words used were, "forced to fight our soldiers," That is an extraordinary statement for any British subject to make in this House. My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne made one remark with which I thoroughly agree. He said that there is only one solution to this question and that is to remove the cause of the trouble. He then went on to say that if we implemented the Anglo-American Report we should remove the cause of the trouble. In my view, if we implement that Report we shall set the Near East in flames, and everybody who knows the Near East will agree that what I say is true. Again, it is said that we must carry out our pledged word to the Jews. I think we have; we have established a national home, but what about our pledged word to the Arabs? Unless it is found as things develop that the Government have acted without proper proof of the complicity of the Jewish Agency leaders I shall support the Government.
9.31 p.m.
Every one will agree that the situation in Palestine is serious and has been serious for many months—I might even say for many years. It is a situation that is not of the seeking of any of us in this House. We have to face this position where there are two races in one small territory and we are charged with a Mandate in which we have to deal fairly with both these peoples. That is sometimes forgotten, and one might almost think from what was said by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) that we were in Palestine as partners with the Jewish Agency for the creation of a Jewish State. That is not so. The Jewish Agency has a position to cooperate on the economic and social side with the Government, but the Government of Palestine is the Government of the mandatory Power.
I must confess that, listening to some of the speeches today, it seemed to me that they entirely lost sight of what preceded this action on the part of the Government. The suggestion was made that this was done out of the blue, as a sudden attack. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne described it as a declaration of war; it was nothing of the kind. We have had a long series of outrages, a long series of terrorist and illegal actions. Let me say that these actions did not start when this Government came in; the right hon. Gentleman opposite had to deal with them, and others have had to deal with them and had to deal with them immediately after V-Day when some extremists said it was their D-Day. I claim that the authorities in Palestine and His Majesty's Government have shown the very greatest possible patience and forbearance in dealing with these matters. We have not taken action in a hurry.
We sought to deal with these activities, as I said, locally, acting against the immediate perpetrators, and I hoped that they were only isolated actions by irresponsibles and extremists. We were most reluctant to go any further than that, but we have been forced by events to see what is the real position, and it is clear that these activities are part of a wide-spread plan. It is perfectly impossible in a country where one is responsible for law and order to allow these things to go on without taking action. No troops in the world can stand being placed in that position, and every one will agree on the enormous forbearance shown by our troops.
We had the position that the only thing to do was to go further than dealing with isolated matters. Some of these activities were very large operations such as the cutting of a number of railways and the blowing up of a whole series of bridges in a widely extended are right round the whole territory. They were on the scale of military planning. Therefore, nothing could be more false than to say that we have declared war on the Jews or the Zionists.
The Prime Minister is unwittingly distorting what I said. I did not say that we had declared war on the Jews. I said that the carrying through of the policy initiated on Saturday morning was inevitably and in fact a war, and so undoubtedly it is.
I accept the hon. Gentleman's explanation, but I would like to ask him, if that is so, what he calls the carrying on of the operations that we have had to face. Soldiers have been attacked and murdered. Is that war, or not?
Answer.
If the right hon. Gentleman wants me to answer, I say that it does not matter to my argument whether military operations are good on one side or bad on the other. I think they are bad on both sides. I was asking the House to realise that once the British Government embark upon the policy they embarked upon on Saturday morning they cannot carry it through without a large-scale war, which I think we are not prepared to carry through.
Once people embark upon a terrorist campaign there is bound to be action taken to prevent the continuation of that campaign. The hon. Gentleman took a line which I very much regretted. Towards the end of his remarks he said, "Let in the 100,000 immigrants, and the whole thing will stop."
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman does not want to be as unfair as in fact he is. I did not say, "Let in the 100,000 and the whole thing will stop." I said that he should not let anybody in. I said he should declare his acceptance in principle of all the ten recommendations of the Report and should go on to say that he declined to implement any one of them until he had achieved an agreement as to cooperation with the United States. That is quite a different thing.
I note the hon. Member's correction, but that was the impression I got. Perhaps the record will show that I am wrong. If the hon. Member says that that was not what he meant, I am very glad to hear it.
It is not merely not what I meant, but not what I said.
There is a great danger in any Member of this House seeming to support this kind of violence. The hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) said that this activity was similar to that of a resistance movement. That again is a very dangerous argument. Precisely the same thing might have been said about the Arab rebellion. The hon. Member said rightly that you should not yield to violence, whether it is by Arabs or by Jews and because we have yielded once to the Arabs is no argument for yielding to the Jews. In my view we must do justice in this case without allowing ourselves to be overcome by threats of violence or by violent action.
The hon. Member for East Coventry said that this was the White Paper policy. It is not the White Paper policy. This Government have never stood for the White Paper policy. Let us remember that pledges were given by the late Prime Minister and President Roosevelt that full consultations should take place before the White Paper policy was departed from. That departure involved some discussion. It is all very well for hon. Members to say that a word has been broken here or there. It seems to me they are very willing for us to break our word when it does not suit them. I quite agree that in this Palestine business, looking back to the past, there have been too many words given on too many sides. But we cannot cast these things aside lightly.
With regard to the White Paper policy, let me say that we did our utmost to induce the Jewish Agency to accept visas, but they refused them at the time, and since the end of the White Paper period, we have continued the migration of Jews into Palestine. It is quite wrong to say that we are carrying on the White Paper policy. On the contrary, we endeavoured to make a new start by getting together with the United States of America for a solution. I hope that out of the discussions on that solution will come the settlement of this problem, but to hear some hon. Members talk one would think that the Report had been accepted by everybody with acclamation. It has not been accepted by the Zionists or by the Arabs. I am told that if we will accept this straightaway without any further thought, everything will be all right. I cannot accept that. What we did say when the Report was issued in consultation with the United States of America was that we sought to get the opinion of both Arabs and Jews on the question. We then arranged for consultations to take place between the experts on the Report. These have been proceeding. It is really not the fault of this Government that the talks have not proceeded more quickly. I have endeavoured to speed them up myself, but one cannot speed up people more than they are willing to be speeded up. One must do the best one can.
The suggestion is thrown out that because after that Report a period has elapsed in which it is known that discussions have gone on, somehow or other that excuses violence. It does not to my mind excuse or condone this kind of violence. We have got to face the fact that there are strong forces in Palestine and in the Jewish world that have not accepted the idea only of a Jewish home, but are pressing for a Jewish State. It is no good blinking that fact—
Like the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
That is a perfectly irrelevant point. I am dealing here with the facts of the situation between the Arabs and the Jews. One has to realise this, too. I quite agree that the Hagana started off by being an orderly and useful body of people, but there is no doubt whatever that, especially since the end of the war, it has to some extent changed, and we have evidence—I will produce the evidence in due course—of a very close link up between the Jewish Agency and Hagana. Indeed, the hon. Member for East Coventry made that point very strongly himself. We also have evidence of the close connection between the Hagana and the Irgun. We cannot get away from the fact that these are working together, and according to the information which we have, the only possible way of dealing with these widespread disturbances is to deal with the organisation of the higher command. The last thing in the world we want to do is to destroy the Jewish Agency. We want to keep the Jewish Agency doing magnificent work, but the Jewish Agency cannot be a cover for running an illegal army in illegal actions. That is why we have had to take this action—because all the evidence that came to the hands of our authorities was that the Hagana has been closely connected with the Irgun and that the Hagana acts under the general direction of members of the Jewish Agency. I am not saying all the members, but certainly some members of the Executive of the Jewish Agency.
We are told that this is a dangerous action, a dangerous policy. I agree, but it is a policy which has been forced upon us. And what is the alternative? I really did not hear any alternative from the hon. Member for East Coventry, except that we should at once proclaim without further consideration that we had accepted the Report of the Committee. Well, we are not prepared to accept that until we have discussed it fully with the Government of the United States of America. That is the couse we have set before us and I am bound to repeat that I have seen no evidence yet of the acceptance of that Report, that it would at once get the approbation of either of the two great communities in Palestine or of their supporters outside.
May I ask the Prime Minister, does action depend simply on agreement between the British Government and the United States Government, or is it also contingent upon the acquiesence of both communities in Palestine?
What we want to get at is the greatest possible agreement between ourselves and the United States, and then to try to get a policy which will be agreed and will bring peace.
That means postponing a settlement.
I do not think the hon. Member would desire us to enforce some policy, by force of arms, which is not accepted by the communities. As I have said before, I think this Report is a very good basis for discussion, I think it is a very valuable Report, but if I am asked here and now if I accept that Report, I cannot accept it because we have not fully discussed it, and its implications are very far reaching and need very wide and careful examination.
This is a very important point. I apologise for interrupting again. Are we to understand, from what my right hon. Friend has just said, that no solution of this problem either arising out of the Report or otherwise, even if agreed between this country and the United States of America, will be applied unless the Arab community in Palestine agrees to it?
I said nothing of the sort. What I said was that you have to examine this very fully because it is not our policy to enforce a policy on Palestine at the point of the bayonet, whether that policy is dictated by one side or the other in favour of one side or the other. We are trying to get a settlement on this most difficult question and I am endeavouring in this Debate to try to escape from the atmosphere of suspicion which has been created as the result of the past handling of this whole question. In this matter we are trying to deal fairly with the Jews and with the Arabs in Palestine. It is really no good suggesting that we have not an obligation to Arabs as well as Jews. That is our Mandate. It may be unfortunate but that is the position. Now, at the present time, we hold that Mandate. We are responsible for preserving law and order. It is suggested that we should not have taken this action. I do not know what was suggested. I notice in the Report it was said if British Forces were withdrawn, there would be immediate and prolonged bloodshed, the end of which it was impossible to predict. We should like to get our troops out of this difficult position but, unfortunately, we have this responsibility and our troops are there. While they are there, they must carry out the primary duty of a Government.
That enforcement of law and order, the preserving of law and order, really does not mean the enforcement of a White Paper policy. The hon. Member who said that, ought not to have said that. He ought not to have drawn a comparison either, suggesting that this was the same as the case of Ireland, because the hon. Member knows perfectly well, and so do the Jewish community and the whole world, that we are discussing definite, concrete proposals put forward to us by a Committee. We are discussing this on the basis of having accepted for a basis of discussion a Report which is being put forward by representatives from two great countries. Surely it is unreasonable to suggest that somehow or other any delay justifies violent action of this kind. I seriously ask what possible good does any hon. Member think can be done by wrecking trains, destroying bridges, shooting soldiers or kidnapping officers? How can that conceivably bring us one whit nearer to a solution of this problem, unless it is really true that by bringing violent pressure this Government can be forced to take some action which it would not otherwise take? No Government worthy of the name will yield to that kind of pressure, and certainly this Government is not going to do so.
Will my right hon Friend say on this question of not yielding to violence, why the Foreign Secretary stated at Bournemouth that the Government would not admit 100,000 Jews, as recommended by the Committee's Report, as it would mean stationing a further division in Palestine? Is that not yielding to the threat of Arab violence?
Not at all. If we are suddenly going to admit something like a 20 per cent. addition, I think it is, of the total population into a disturbed country with all kinds of economic difficulties and so on, we have to contemplate that we may get disturbances, and may need more troops stationed there. The Foreign Secretary said nothing in regard to the Arabs. But we have to take into account that steps taken in this matter must be taken very carefully if we do not want to precipitate violence on one side, or the other. Therefore, I ask the House to realise that the Government have not been actuated by some desire to attack the Jewish Agency, the Jewish people or the Zionist movement.
We have been trying for a very long time to see whether ordinary police action, persuasion, would not stop this terrorism. It has not done so. It has got worse, and I claim that no Government could have failed to act under these circumstances. Our information is as I told the House that there is the closest possible connection between Members of the Executive of the Jewish Agency and the Hagana. That is not denied. There is evidence of a close connection and joint working between the Hagana and some of the terrorist organisations, and under these circumstances it was essential to deal with the whole network of this business, as soon as possible to clear up the matter. We want to go ahead and get down to the business of dealing with the Report of the Commission dealing with this problem. I earnestly ask all my friends—whom I know feel very deeply on this matter, indeed hon. Members in all parts of the House feel very deeply on this matter—I ask hon. Members to use some control.
I do not think the remarks of the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. M. Foot) were really helpful, or really did justice to the situation in which any Government would find itself in dealing with a problem which has lasted not for decades, but for centuries. That requires for its solution the utmost patience and the utmost good will, but it requires at the same time, if our hopes are not to be shipwrecked, a firm administration in carrying out the ordinary fundamental duties of a Government, distasteful as these may be. I think hon. Members have already agreed, that whatever they may think about the action that has been taken by the Government, the action of the troops in carrying out those duties has been exemplary. I assure the House, in conclusion, that as soon as possible the House shall be put in possession of all the facts available. I can also assure the House that I am pressing on constantly—only this very week—in order to try and get forward with the discussions on the Committee's Report.
The Prime Minister must be aware that a large number of hon. Members who wished to speak tonight could not, within the short time available, do so, and also of the great importance attached to this matter. Could he give us an assurance that a full opportunity for a discussion of this grave matter will be given before the House rises at the end of this month?
I have already promised that. I should have liked a full day's Debate on this, not a rushed Debate in a short time which does not give anyone full time to develop their case. It has already been said that there will be an opportunity for a full Debate before the House rises.
Is the Prime Minister aware that a great many Members would like a full day's Debate on education?
I think that many Members of the House will feel that my right hon. Friend has not really justified this action, but since I did not move this Motion in order to divide the House at this stage on these matters, but merely in order to give the Government an opportunity to hear what we thought, and give the House an opportunity to hear the Government's explanation, I will, with the leave of the House, and of my hon. Friend who seconded, ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Supply
Again considered in Committee.
[Major MILNER in the Chair]
Question again proposed, "That item Subhead A.1 be reduced by £100 in respect of the salary of the Minister of Education."
Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again"—[ Mr. R. J. Taylor ]—put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.
Requisitioned Airfields (Release)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. R. J. Taylor. ]
10.0 p.m.
I wish to direct the attention of this House to wartime aerodrome requisitioning. In many cases, no settlement has been reached, although requisitioning was carried out as far back as 1939. In others, the compensation is inadequate, or has ceased to be paid. Buildings, though empty, have not been returned to the owners, to the detriment of housing, and tenants have been prevented from restarting their enterprises. Operational reasons do not justify the present position. Before considering the matter further, I would like, belatedly I fear, to congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment as Under-Secretary of State for Air. I hope he will enjoy trying his wings today, and it may comfort him to reflect that I am trying my own also. In his present position, he will find that the sins of the forefathers are being visited on him, unto the third generation, those forefathers being his Conservative and Liberal predecessors in office.
I shall not expect a detailed reply to the questions which I raise, as the Under-Secretary has been too recently appointed to be able to deal with them. The Ministry of Civil Aviation is engaged in "hiving off" from the Air Ministry, and it may be that the Parliamentary Secretary to that Ministry would be better qualified to deal with many of these questions. Fortunately, I see that he is not far situated from his distinguished colleague. Aerodromes were requisitioned under a war necessity, but we are now at peace. Cuckoo occupation does not reflect credit on a service whose motto is " Per ardua ad astra ". Proximity to towns, the Parliamentary Secretary will agree, is vital to civil aviation, but not so vital to the Royal Air Force. The Treasury should press the Air Ministry to hand back buildings at once, and allow enterprises to restart. I would ask the Under-Secretary to state how many aerodromes requisitioned during the war have been returned to the owners, how many aerodromes so requisitioned have been transferred to the Ministry of Civil Aviation and how many are under discussion for such transfer. Aerodrome development began, as the Parliamentary Secretary will be aware, in the early 20's, when the Duke of Windsor, then Prince of Wales, issued an appeal to the municipalities of Great Britain to build aerodromes for an age of air transport, but owners have received poor guidance from the Ministry. For instance, in 1935, it was laid down that the maximum aerodrome which would be required was 600 yards square, and today we are demanding runways 2½ miles long. The majority of aerodromes before the war made losses but all looked forward to the future. These white elephants were invaluable when war broke out. From them Britain leapt into the air for defence. Without them, would the Battle of Britain have been won? My own at Aberdeen provided for the defence of the city, of the North-East of Scotland and of shipping and fishing interests. Humbly, I beg to state that I do not consider proper recognition has been given to the pioneering of aerodromes in this country. The Aerodrome Owners' Association has been insufficiently consulted by the Air Ministry. Once a year, it is true, a tribute is passed by an Under-Secretary or a Director-General but always on a full belly after an annual dinner.
I have reviewed the question of aerodrome development to encourage the Under-Secretary to deal humanely with the question of requisitioning. With regard to flying, hon. Members will agree that there is a fundamental difference between the Service and civil outlook. Like oil and water, they do not mix. At the beginning of hostilities the Royal Air Force decided, "This is our war. Get everything out of the air and requisition all aerodromes," and civil schools were suppressed. In my own judgment, this was largely unnecessary. The value of civil training was shown by the manning of the Air Transport Auxiliary by prewar club pilots. Civil schools could have carried out preliminary training for the Royal Air Force and for the ferry services. Instead, their buildings were requisitioned and their aircraft taken and dumped at aerodromes to rot.
I would like to place on record briefly, what airline operation meant from a requisitioned aerodrome. I trust the House will forgive me for selecting Aberdeen, but I am better able to describe what happened there. Buildings were erected without consultation as to future planning or were proposed for the control tower and the terminal block. When runways and perimeter tracks were laid, no consideration was given as to whether the airline could get aircraft out of their hangar. For many days, in fact, they were cut off yet they were blamed by the public, the Post Office, and Service personnel, for cancellation of services. In fact, staff had to carry the aircraft bodily across trenches. On another occasion, the Royal Air Force without warning reduced the aerodrome to a care and maintenance basis and removed all equipment.
Then 18 inches of snow fell and there was no snow plough to clear runways. The airline was grounded for 10 days and again met public, Post Office and Service condemnation. As it was wartime, the company could not publish particulars of their difficulties. Their wooden snow plough had been taken at the commencement of war and they were unable to help themselves. The same lack of consideration was shown in evacuating personnel from buildings. Possession of the clubhouse was demanded at 48 hours' notice. This coincided with the secretary receiving a telegram that her father was lying in a London mortuary. The date was February, 1940. No extra time was allowed to bury him, and the contents of the clubhouse were evacuated by "stranger hands."
Aberdeen, prior to the war, was an all-grass aerodrome, capable of carrying aircraft up to 30,000 lbs. The R.A.F. laid down three concrete runways, but left the grass between entirely neglected. Then Flying Control insisted on the airline operating from the runway in use. Such runways was often chosen for its length, but quite irrespective of a wind direction. This had no effect, of course, on heavy bombers, but the airline was frequently ordered to land with crosswinds of 30 to 40 miles per hour. The company would have liked to land on grass, but this was littered with aircraft, with pickets, with tins and other impedimenta. On 18th December, 1940, when endeavouring to carry out such instructions, Dragon G-ACNJ was blown sideways off the runway, but when the possibility of a claim was mentioned the airline was advised that if objections were raised it would be removed from the aerodrome.
I once ventured to point out to a control officer that the all-up weight of our aircraft was only 5,500 lbs. "Oh," he said, triumphantly, "but you have forgotten the passengers." It was then that a high up at the Air Ministry must have cried, "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" An aircraftman did his best by letting off a Spitfire drum. Bullets drove through my bathroom, but, fortunately, I had vacated it earlier. The moment was, perhaps, well chosen. "Death by misadventure," or, at the best, from "unnatural causes" was all that would be permitted in such times of secrecy, but it was then that the Air Ministry announced that there was a depression over North East Scotland. Since then my file has been passed to the Ministry of Civil Aviation and marked "Referred to you for execution."
A word about heather. This has been deliberately sown for camouflage purposes. The tenants ask that it should be removed so that grass may be used for landing light aircraft. As to compensation, this has indeed been disgracefully handled. Prior to the war, a lease existed by which the Ministry was entitled to station at the airport a minimum of 16 aircraft for £1,600 per annum. It undertook to pay £100 for each additional aircraft. The saturation point was to be determined by the controlling tenant, Allied Airways. All chance landings by the R.A.F. were to be paid for at the rates laid down by the Aerodrome Owners' Association. Throughout the war, between 150 to 200 machines have been stationed at Dyce. Compensation is not claimed on these numbers, but the original lease never contemplated that the limit would be 16. It was, in fact, anticipated that anything up to 50 would be stationed there and additional arrangements had been made to welcome No. 41 Elementary Flying Training School. Yet, throughout the war, the only compensation paid has been £1,600 per annum and, for the last nine months, the "joke department" has failed to make any payment whatever. The company request immediate attention to their claim filed in 1940 and, if no settlement can be arrived at, an early reference to arbitration. Compensation for other companies has also been neglected. Aberdeen Flying School has been paid £5 a week for the use of a hangar for which the Air Ministry paid £7 per week before the war.
The destruction of the Aberdeen flying clubhouse is incredible. Britons, Canadians, Poles, Czechs and the Fleet Air Arm have occupied it in turn. Hobnail boots have tramped on parquet floors, oak panelling has been torn down and used for fires, nails driven in everywhere, walls broken, baths, lavatories and French bidets removed, and Jacobean fire places destroyed. An atom bomb could have accomplished little more. Aberdeen Aerodrome Fuel Supplies have received no compensation for offices occupied, previously let to the Royal Air Force before the war. Their agreement with the Ministry to pay one penny per gallon on petrol has been ignored, and now the "joke department" has ceased to make any payment at all.
I will now examine Air Ministry treatment of two other Scottish landing grounds—Thurso and Stromness. In June, 1940, Allied Airways were ordered South to assist in the evacuation of Dunkirk. On their return they resumed normal services. When they reached Thurso they found that bulldozers had ploughed trenches two feet deep and six feet wide all over the aerodrome. As a result, Thurso suffered the loss of its airline throughout the war. A written undertaking was given by Sir Archibald Sinclair, then Secretary of State for Air, to reinstate the aerodrome. He admitted it had been destroyed by mistake. This reinstatement was not carried out. The company has received no compensation, although rates have been paid throughout. Besides this, their hangar has been occupied and its contents thrown out. No compensation has been received for that either, nor for the offices occupied by the Air Ministry for radar, nor for the offices in Thurso town on which rent and rates have also been paid. Further, all furniture was taken from the Thurso offices and cannot be traced. In 1945, the Ministry made a pretence of reinstating the surface. Trenches were filled and fresh turf laid, but the work was a waste of public money as all drains had been destroyed. Drainage should have been replaced first. Water ran in waves before the rollers. In despair, the airline company themselves are inserting drains and requests the Ministry to meet the bill, as the surface before the war was prepared at substantial cost for a licensed aerodrome.
At Stromness landing ground a substantial sum was spent on preparing the surface and burying adjacent telephone wires, and again while Allied Airways were assisting at the Dunkirk evacuation a large number of bell tents were erected on the aerodrome to house evacuation from Norway. Each tent was surrounded by drainage rings, and motor cars and lorries ran all over the field. When the troops were evacuated the Air Ministry stated that the use of the landing ground could not be resumed as no guard could be spared. The aerodrome licence thus fell into abeyance and the Agricultural Board said, "This is not an aerodrome. Therefore, we have a right to plough it." The Fleet Air Arm said, "Here is a nice wooden hangar, so we will take it." All contents were removed to Hatston aerodrome and no compensation has been received for the aerodrome or hangar. To whom must the company look for compensation for destruction of the aerodrome surface? To maintain their rights they have paid rent throughout the war. Compensation at agricultural value would be inadequate.
The case at Bembridge, Isle of Wight, is similar. Deep trenches across the aerodrome have been cut and drainage on approximately 100 acres upset. Yet for six years no compensation has been agreed, and it is understood that the Air Ministry are not prepared to reinstate the ground. Further, the War Agricultural Executive Committee have now served ploughing up orders. The owners pressed for compensation rent to be agreed, the ground to be reinstated and the agricultural committee to take their hands off. They wish to restore the aerodrome and make it available for civil flying. There is a shortage of civil aerodromes around London, yet Redhill is used as a bomb dump. British Air Transport have been informed that it will be January, 1947, before such bombs can be removed. Can the Under-Secretary explain why? At Denham, Bucks, against a rental claim of £1,600 per annum £650 has been offered. This has been unsettled for years. All hangars, bungalows and buildings have been wrecked, and some erected on adjoining owners' land and left there, still wrecked. The city of Portsmouth presses for possession of their aerodrome and for buildings erected thereon, as the Portsmouth Aero Club have now bought aeroplanes and are anxious to restart. I shall be pleased to hand over papers relative to all the matters mentioned. I have a volume of correspondence.
I request the Under-Secretary to press the Treasury to deal with requisition claims. I would suggest that the work should be allocated to a special department with instructions to act quickly and not parsimoniously. I request the Under-Secretary to issue instructions to return to owners buildings which, in many cases, have been empty for years, and to agree to payment for dilapidation. I request the Under-Secretary to recognise the frustration felt by civil aviation enterprises, which are anxious to start, and to do all he can to help them. I hope the Ministry of Civil Aviation and the Air Ministry will not become Tweedledum and Tweedledee and pass the buck together. There is no industry more individualistic than aviation. Enterprise is the lifeblood of flying. The Government may dislike it, but the Under-Secretary may convert the Government to better thinking. Aviation will not accept interference with rights and with buildings without protest and compensation. I have here a few lines which might be taken as the prayer of the Government:
On a point of Order. Is it in Order for an hon. Member to read a speech?
It is quite out of Order for an hon. Member to read his speech. He may refresh his memory from notes, but the hon Member's memory seems to need a good deal of refreshing.
I will finish without my notes.
"May Heaven grant a robot nation,
Each with number, none with name,
Free from individual station,
Mechanised and all the same.
Enterprise we'll strive to stifle,
Armed with bureaucratic powers.
And, oh Lord, another trifle,
Haunt us not with Gandar Dowers."
10.23 p.m.
The hon. Member for Caithness (Mr. Gandar Dower) referred to the sins of my forefathers in aviation, and gave me the role of King Lear, sinned I must do the penance. The hon. Member alleges that the Air Ministry holds on to buildings and airfields even when it is not using them, that our compensation is delayed and inadequate, and that we have frustrated the prewar airfield operators. I have a very few minutes, but I shall attempt to cover those points. The hon. Member asked about prewar airfields. We requisitioned approximately 60; 20 of these we have transferred to the Ministry of Civil Aviation; we are using the others, and good use is being made of them. For instance, 14, which are still used for flying by the R.A.F., are also open for charter and private flying. Another 16 are used as civil schools for flying training. A small number are used for storage. We very much regret that there are two on which the actual runways themselves are used for storage, one of which the hon. Member mentioned, namely, Redhill. We entirely agree that release is desirable, and we are doing everything we can. But I must remind the hon. Member of the enormous pressure there is on storage. We have 14 million square feet in the R.A.F. used for storage by Departments other than the Air Ministry.
With regard to the derequisitioning of these fields, we hold that we cannot very well derequisition them all. We have to think ahead. The Air Ministry wants some, the Ministry of Civil Aviation wants many more for its scheduled services. Now in spite of the fact that there has been very little pressure indeed from the civil airfield owners for derequisitioning, we have derequisitioned a few—a very few, I admit—but we as a Department—and it is my Department, the Air Ministry, which is on trial here—are not allowed to sit back. We are under continual pressure, as we should be, from all the other interests, for agricultural interests, from the Ministry of Agriculture, for new industrial development from the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Supply. We are not allowed to go to sleep, and we are not asleep, but our fundamental point is that we are not derequisitioning because very shortly we hope to be able to come here and announce exactly what airfields we require in the Air Ministry and what airfields are required by the Ministry of Civil Aviation.
The hon. Member discussed compensation. The Compensation Act of 1939 is quite clear, the Requisitioned Land and War Works Act of 1945 is clear, and the appeal system to the General Claims Tribunal is clear. The hon. Member can see the enormous safeguards there are for operators. He referred to the frustration which the prewar operator feels and I can appreciate that. To the hon. Member private enterprise meant something more than a speech at a chamber of commerce, he was an enterprising man.
The hon. Member mentioned Dyce. He was good enough to tell me he would do so. I consulted my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, and he undertakes to investigate any point the hon. Member made about Dyce, and, if necessary, to visit Dyce with him. The actual details of what he alleged happened at Dyce, occurred, many of them, during the heat of the war. I am not justifying them on that ground, but only so that the hon. Member can get them into perspective. Outstanding claims in respect of Dyce have reached a certain stage of negotiation with the Ministries and are now being referred to the General Claims Tribunal. They are, therefore, sub judice. The Air Ministry will be fair in this matter. We cannot be unfair, even if we wanted to, because the laws are on the Statute Book.
If I have spoken of private enterprise, it is because this Debate has naturally been focussed on those private interests, but we should get those interests into perspective, even if they are the interests of worthy men of enterprise. We must consider not only private interests but also the public interests of defence, agriculture, industry and trade. Those public interests are protected by the appropriate Ministries, which are continually pressing my Ministry. We know that the independent man of enterprise will not be frustrated for long. There is the field of the charter air services, and we know that they will work, as we and the great public corporations will work, so that we may have a civil aviation worthy of our technicians, our workers and our airmen, who build the planes and fly them.
Before the Under-Secretary sits down, may I ask him one question? He has most obligingly mentioned the number of aerodromes turned over to the Ministry of Civil Aviation; could he name the number of aerodromes restored direct by the Air Ministry—
It being Half past Ten o'Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.