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Commons Chamber

Volume 451: debated on Wednesday 26 May 1948

House of Commons

Wednesday, May 26, 1948

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Private Business

St. Helens Corporation (Electricity and General Powers) Bill

Read the Third time, and passed.

Darwen Corporation Bill

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

ROUND OAK STEEL WORKS (LEVEL CROSSINGS) BILL [Lords]

Read a Second time, and committed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Telephone Service (Share Lines)

asked the Postmaster-General whether telephone subscribers who have to share lines are given any choice of partner.

I regret that it is not generally practicable to offer any choice of partner to telephone subscribers who have to share lines, as this would mean disregarding the order of applicants on the waiting list.

Will my right hon. Friend reconsider this matter, bearing in mind that for either personal, political, or other reasons the sharing of a telephone—for instance, by the local secretaries of the Labour Party and the Conservative Party—would have unfortunate results?

Can the Minister tell the House whether, where a party line has been agreed upon and disharmony ensues, the dissatisfied subscriber is expelled or called upon to resign?

Is there any power to compel a subscriber to share his line with another applicant?

Royal Air Force

Married Quarters

asked the Secretary of State for Air on what basis are officers' married quarters allocated in the R.A.F.

Married quarters in the R.A.F., for both officers and airmen, are allocated under a points scheme which takes account of the size of the family, the amount of Air Force service, the length of married life and of separation during overseas tours. I am sending full details of the scheme to the hon. and gallant Member.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that under this scheme the General Duties Officer is at a complete disadvantage? It is unlikely that he will get married quarters unless he reaches the rank of GroupCaptain—if he ever does so.

No, Sir. I do not think it is correct to say that the General Duties Officer as such is under a handicap. The fundamental difficulty is the shortage of married quarters.

asked the Secretary of State for Air what percentage of married airmen are accommodated in married quarters of the R.A.F.; and what allowances are paid to those not accommodated in such quarters.

Twenty per cent. of married airmen are accommodated in Service married quarters, for which they pay rent. All married airmen, whether accommodated in married quarters or not, draw rates of marriage allowance which vary from 35s. a week to 45s. a week according to rank, and no additional allowance is paid to men who are not accommodated in married quarters.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that men who are not in married quarters are at a complete disadvantage financially? Would he get his colleagues together and try to obtain some adjustment to see that there is fairness?

The best solution to this problem is the provision of an adequate number of married quarters and this is what my Department are seeking to do. We have given this matter the highest priority.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that in the areas surrounding those camps where there are not sufficient married quarters airmen are being charged exorbitant rents? Can nothing be done to stop this practice?

That problem is common to the civilian population in similar circumstances. The Government have sought to deal with it by the establishment of rent tribunals, to which those who object to the extortionate rent charged can apply.

In view of the statement of the Minister about additional married quarters being the satisfactory solution, is there to be an expanded programme of married quarters for the Forces in the near future?

No, Sir, I cannot say that there is to be an expanded programme. What I said in my Estimates speech was that by the end of this year, as far as my Department are concerned, we hope to have attained 5o per cent. of the number of married quarters that are required.

Bolt Head Airfield (Compensation)

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether his attention has been called to the inadequate compensation offered to owners in connection with the use of their land for the purpose of Bolt Head Airfield in South Devon; that his Ministry's offer in respect of the claims of Mrs. Smale, Mr. Soper and Mr. Squire, amounting in all to approximately £25,000, is only £4,870, and that this sum takes no adequate account of the fact that those concerned have had little or no use of the land since 1946 and that much restoration will have to be done before it is again fit for agricultural purposes; and whether he will take steps to review this case.

The Air Ministry's liability for compensation in this case is limited, by Section 2 of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, to the freehold value of the land at the date of requisition. In accordance with Proviso (ii) to that Section, my Department has made an offer of £4,700 which is considered to be the freehold value of the land at the time of requisitioning. I am informed that in addition nearly £3,000 has been expended by the Ministry of Agriculture towards restoring the land. It is, of course, open to the owners to claim further payments from the Ministry of Agriculture under Section 52 of the Requisitioned Land and War Works Act, 1945.

Is the Minister aware that I have inspected this aerodrome in great detail and that it is largely a sea of concrete and a museum of ex-Service huts? Is he further aware that it is quite impossible for the owners, with this miserable compensation, to return the land to any form of food production? As it is an Air Ministry responsibility, will not the right hon. Gentleman see whether he can do something about this exceptional case?

I am anxious to help, but I would remind the hon. and gallant Member that the question of restoration is the responsibility of the Ministry of Agriculture and not mine.

Requisitioned Farm, Gravesend

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he has any statement to make about the derequisitioning of a farm in the Gravesend area, of which he has been given particulars.

Instructions have now been given for this land to be derequisitioned, except for the areas on which there are buildings constructed for Service purposes.

I should not like to commit myself, but I hope it will be very quickly.

Civil Aviation

Employees (Overseas Protection)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation how soon he expects to be able to introduce legislation extending to air-crews and other employees of private airlines protection against being stranded overseas, through their employers' fault or misfortune, similar to that afforded to merchant seamen.

At present I have nothing to add to the reply I gave the hon. Member to his Question on 22nd April last.

Can my hon. Friend say whether this matter is being considered, since this would not be a highly controversial Measure and might be got through quite quickly?

Technical Organisation

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he will give consideration to the formation of an over-riding technical organisation available jointly for consultation between his Ministry, the Airways Corporations, the Ministry of Supply and the constructors in order to simplify the procedure of ordering aircraft, stating the long-term aircraft requirements and to act as a body of informed opinion and experienced technical experts, capable of being consulted in all matters affecting the future development and being made responsible for the ordering of civil aircraft.

These matters form part of the general question of ordering procedure, which, as announced by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply on 26th February, is now being looked into by the business and administrative advisors whom the Government have called into consultation.

Will consideration be given, if and when some committee is set up to consider this question of ordering aircraft, to include people with adequate technical and commercial experience to enable it really to fulfil its function? Will my hon. Friend see that the rather inadequate organisation in the Corporations will be superseded when this new organisation comes into effect?

Is not the easiest method of simplification to let the Airline Corporation order direct?

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say when the committee of business men will have their report out?

Flying Boats

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation whether a decision has now been reached on the role of the flying boat in the long-term programme for civil aviation.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what decision has now been reached on the location of the No. I British flying-boat terminus.

Investigation of alternative sites is still proceeding, but the engineering survey work is unlikely to be completed for some months.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether any consideration is being given to the possibility of having a base on the West of Scotland?

It is being considered, but, to be perfectly frank, our aim is to get a base as near as possible to those places to which people most want to travel; that is, to London and the Southern parts of England.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say why it has been decided to proceed with the building of a flying boat base when it has not yet been decided to use flying boats?

My anwer to the original Question was that investigations into the best site for a base are still proceeding.

Questions

Treaty of Brussels (Italy)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will consult with the other signatories of the Treaty of Brussels, with a view to the issue of an invitation to Italy, in accordance with Article IX thereof, to become a party to the Treaty.

No, Sir. A new Italian Government has only just been formed and its policy has not yet been declared. It would be premature to take such action at this stage before there is any indication that the Italian Government and people desire their country to accede to the Treaty.

While I cannot press my hon. Friend at this moment in view of what he has said, will he bear in mind his own words of 22nd January that

"We shall have to consider the question of associating other historic members of European civilisation, including the new Italy?—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd January, 1948; Vol. 446, c. 397.]

Germany

Requisitioned Houses

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that houses Nos. 18–30, Bahnhofstrasse, Hamburg Rahlstedt, have stood empty since October, 1947; and whether he will give instructions for these houses to be de-requisitioned and returned to their rightful owners as soon as possible.

Of the six requisitioned houses to which my hon. Friend refers one has stood empty since October, three since November, one since December, and one since January, 1948. Owing to certain re-grouping of military and civilian personnel which is now in progress, no decision as to de-requisitioning can be given just at present, but I am asking for a further report on this question.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that that is the kind of answer which the Control Commission have been giving to me on this sort of housing problem for the last two years, and that they have never come to a decision? Will he urge them to take up the matter at once as it is causing a great deal of dissatisfaction?

Obviously, my hon. Friend did not hear the last words of the answer, that I am asking for a further report immediately.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will explain the need for the requisitioning of houses now occupied by Germans in KielHoltenau for the benefit of British soldiers and their families; whether he will consider using the military barracks at Holtenau for that purpose; and whether he appreciates the resentment caused by additional requisitioning so long after the end of hostilities.

Scientific Instrument Industry

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the development of the British scientific instrument industry in this country is seriously prejudiced by the decision to remove all control from the German scientific instrument industry; and whether, in view of the vital importance to this country of developing a large-scale instrument industry, he will arrange to set up an inter-Departmental committee at the earliest opportunity to consider policy in this matter.

The hon. Member is misinformed. Executive authority for this and other industries was transferred to German administration in January, 1947; but the establishment of the level of the industry, its demilitarisation and the control of research remain Military Government responsibilities. I cannot agree that the British scientific instrument industry has been harmed by this decision. Our policy aims at striking a balance between eliminating Germany's war potential and making the German economy self-supporting. It is not and will not be directed towards eliminating German competition with British industry. With regard to the second part of the Question, an inter-Departmental committee has already considered this question, and will examine any fresh aspects that arise.

Will the Foreign Secretary take the opportunity of refuting any suggestion of British industry being unwilling or unable to enter into competition with German industry?

Yugoslav Refugees

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many Yugoslav refugees have been detained at Esterwegen Prisoner of War Camp in Germany; and in how many cases has forcible repatriation been decided upon

Twenty-one Yugoslays are at present under detention at Esterwegen Prisoner of War Camp in Germany. Their cases are now under consideration, and no final decisions to repatriate have yet been taken.

Am I to understand from that that the others will be released and that there is no question of any forcible repatriation at all yet? Has anybody been forcibly repatriated?

Can the Foreign Secretary assure us that he will make sure what has happened to those Yugoslavs who have been repatriated in recent months before he takes the final decision in these cases which he has now told us has not yet been taken?

There is an Adjournment Debate tonight, and I would prefer that all these questions should be put then, when all the points can be answered.

Questions

Far East (War Damage Claims)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware of the hardship being caused to people who lost their personal effects and property during the Japanese occupation; and when compensation is likely to be paid.

Payment of compensation in respect of losses in Far Eastern foreign territories will depend on the terms of the eventual peace settlement with Japan, and no reliable forecast can yet be made of when this will be concluded, nor what its precise terms will be. Although His Majesty's Government cannot themselves undertake to compensate British subjects who have suffered losses of this kind, ex gratia grants have been payable since 1945 to persons returning from captivity in the Far East who, prior to their captivity, were resident in foreign territory, and who intend to set up a home in this country.

International Refugee Organisation

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what countries have taken in international refugees up to date and in what numbers; how many refugees have been repatriated; how many refugees are still displaced; and of these how many refuse to be repatriated for fear of being liquidated; what funds are required by the I.R.O. in the immediate future; and what countries, formerly belligerent and neutral, respectively, are being asked to take in refugees or contribute funds to the I.R.O.

As the answer is rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer :

Except for the United Kingdom, where approximately 150,000 Polish and other refugees had already been accepted since the end of hostilities, there was little large-scale resettlement before the Preparatory Commission for the International Refugee Organisation began its operations on the 1st July, 1947, and complete figures for other countries are not available. In the first eight months of the Preparatory Commission's operations up to 29th February, 1948, 125,374 refugees were resettled of whom 40,455 came to the United Kingdom, 17,001 to Belgium, 14,409 to France, 12,203 to the United States, 11,641 to Canada, 5,187 to Argentina and 5,186 to Palestine. Over seven million displaced persons have been repatriated by U.N.R. R.A., the Preparatory Commission for the International Refugee Organisation and the military authorities from the Western zones of Germany and Austria since the end of the war, and if the numbers who made their own way home or who were repatriated from other areas are included, the total may be as high as ten million.

There are believed to be approximately one million refugees coming within the mandate of the International Refugee Organisation, nearly two-thirds of whom are maintained in assembly centres. Although repatriation is still continuing, it is clear that the overwhelming majority of refugees are unwilling to return home. Although it can be assumed that just over 75 per cent. of the authorised budget of the Preparatory Commission for 1948–49 will be subscribed, this is likely to prove insufficient to enable the Organisation to carry out resettlement to the maximum possible extent, although lack of funds is by no means the only obstacle in the way of an early solution to the refugee problem.

The General Assembly of the United Nations in its resolution of 17th November, 1947, appealed to all member-Governments to co-operate with the Preparatory Commission and to take a fair share of the non-repatriable refugees. His Majesty's representatives abroad have been instructed to take every opportunity to urge other countries to follow our example by joining the International Refugee Organisation and admitting refugees.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what contributions have been made by governments to the International Refugee Organisation up to date; and what governments have failed to co-operate or contribute.

As the answer is rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can the Foreign Secretary say whether this country has met its full obligations to the I.R.O. up to date? Will he also consider circulating a list of countries which still owe money to the I.R.O.?

I cannot say off-hand whether the whole of our contribution has been paid. I think it has, but I will make sure. I will take into consideration the second part of the Question.

Following is the answer :

The following countries have ratified the Constitution of the International Refugee Organisation and are making contributions in proportions laid down by the General Assembly of the United Nations:

Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Canada, China, Dominican Republic, France, Guatemala, Iceland, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, United Kingdom, United States of America.

The operational budget for 1948–49 is for some 150 million dollars and the total likely to be subscribed by the States named is about 120 million dollars or 75 per cent. of the whole. The shortfall corresponds to the proportion of United Nations members who have not ratified the Constitution.

European Advisory Committee (Plan)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will now publish the plan drawn up by the European Advisory Committee in the autumn of 1944 which was confirmed at the Yalta Conference in February, 1945.

Command Paper No. 6648 of 5th June, 1945, contains the information required by my hon. Friend.

Belgium (War Damage Claims)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what has been the reply of the Belgian Government to his request that the benefit of Belgian legislation relative to indemnification for war damage to property should be extended to British subjects owning property in Belgium.

The Belgian Government agreed in principle some time ago to extend to British subjects the benefits of Belgian legislation providing for compensation for war damage, and British subjects have been invited to submit their claims. There has been some slight difficulty in preparing an agreed text of the formal agreement, under which both Governments intend to undertake to compensate each other's nationals in respect of war damage. These difficulties have now, however, been almost entirely resolved and I expect the formal agreement to be concluded at a very early date.

Arab Legion (British Officers)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many British officers are at present serving with the Arab Legion; and what steps he is taking to secure their withdrawal.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many British officers are serving with the Arab Legion and with the Transjordan Force; and whether it is proposed to withdraw them.

The Transjordan Frontier Force, which was a unit of the Imperial Forces, was disbanded several months ago. According to the latest information received there are 37 British officers serving with the Arab Legion at the moment. Three of these were seconded from the service of the Government of Palestine. With the end of the Mandate these officers have opted to terminate their connection with the Colonial Service. Thirteen of the total are civilians on contract with the Transjordan Government. The remainder are on secondment from the British Forces. There are no British Officers in Jerusalem.

The British Army officers who are seconded to the Transjordan Forces are provided under the Anglo-Transjordan Treaty by which the British Government bind themselves to provide on request any British Service personnel whose services are required to ensure the efficiency of the Transjordan Army. This obligation would only cease if its fulfilment became inconsistent with our obligations to the United Nations. In this connection I am still waiting to learn the Arab response to the cease fire resolution.

Can the Foreign Secretary tell us whether these British officers have been involved in any fighting in Palestine since 15th May; and in the second place, is it consistent with the policy of neutrality towards the struggle in Palestine that British officers should be serving on one side.

I understand one officer—I will check this up—was involved in certain fighting in Jerusalem. For the remainder they have not been involved in any fighting.

Could the right hon. Gentleman amplify a little that statement about no British officers in Jerusalem? Does he mean that there have been no British officers on Active Service engaged in any operations against the Jews in the Jerusalem area?

Not in the old city. I understand that two persons were involved in the new part, but they have been withdrawn. So far as the rest are concerned they have not been involved in fighting at all.

Does my right hon. Friend think it is fitting that a force paid for with British money, and wearing uniforms and carrying equipment provided by us should be engaged in shelling the Holy Places in Jerusalem?

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that could he say whether he is aware of the extent of American support given to the Jews?

"Pay your money and take your choice." As I said yesterday, I am trying to pursue a policy of ending hostilities, and I do not intend to be drawn into a controversy on this matter at this stage. The British Government will do what they conceive to be right and report to this House. At the same time I repeat what I said yesterday, that one of the difficulties in Jerusalem was the breaking of the truce—

What has that to do with British officers fighting with the Arabs? It is a red herring.

If I am out of Order you, Mr. Speaker, will tell me to sit down. I do not know that your powers have been transferred to this side of the House. The trouble about the fighting in Jerusalem arose owing to the truce being broken, and it was broken by a section of the Jewish Forces. I very much regret that. I think it would have been preferable if Jerusalem had been kept out of it

On a point of Order. In view of the fact that the Treaty with Transjordan lays it down that no warlike action shall be taken without consultation, is not the Foreign Secretary responsible for what is taking place at the present time?

Further to that point of Order. Is not the action already taken purely defensive?

The hon. Gentleman wants an answer to his point of Order. It was a matter entirely of Debate and not a point of Order for me. I think we had better get on.

On a point of Order. I ask you whether it is permissible for a Minister to say to this House that be is standing for neutrality when, as a matter of fact, he is responsible for the present policy in Palestine?

I said that was not a point of Order, and I say again we will now get on with the business.

On a point of Order. I was on my feet putting a question to the Foreign Secretary.

On a point of Order. I was interrupted when I was about to put a supplementary question to the Foreign Secretary.

I think I had called the name of the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks) and, therefore, I will allow that one question.

I want to ask, arising from the answer given by the Foreign Secretary to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), whether any British officers are employed in directing the artillery which is bombarding Jerusalem?

Colonial Service (Agricultural Officers)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many vacancies there are at the present time for agricultural officers in the Colonial Service.

The number of outstanding vacancies for Agricultural Officers proper which Colonial Governments have asked us to fill is at present 85.

Is the Minister satisfied that the Colonial agricultural service is attracting a due proportion of university students from this country, and, if not, will he review the terms of service?

We have filled 50 vacancies already, which compares very favourably with the pre-war position, and I am satisfied that, as at present devised, it is satisfactory.

Seychelles (Taxation)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has made inquiries into the allegations of over-taxation and high-handed methods of the Income Tax officials in Seychelles, to which his attention has been drawn, with particular reference to the cases of Mr. F. W. Parsons and Mr. Sydney Delorie; and with what results.

My right hon. Friend is at present engaged in considering the recently enacted Income Tax legislation of Seychelles and certain allegations which have been made in regard to the collection of Income Tax, and he would prefer not to make a statement at this juncture. He is, however, sending my hon. Friend information which the Governor has furnished about the two cases to which he refers.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the administration of this Colony is quite efficient and that attention is paid to what is coming to be regarded as a lost colony?

I do not agree that that is a proper comment to make on Seychelles. There have been difficulties in the collection of Income Tax but that is not confined to Seychelles. We are looking into the whole position arising out of the recent cases.

Uganda (Makerere College)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what substantial donations have been given to assist the work of the Makerere College in Uganda during the current year; and what steps have been taken to acknowledge and encourage such donations.

Since the beginning of the year Dr. J. T. Williamson, of Tanganyika, has given £50,000 towards the cost of new buildings at Makerere College and the Government of Kenya has made a direct gift of £40,000 to endow a Chair of Veterinary Science at the college. The college council has gratefully acknowledged these donations and arranged considerable publicity for them. My right hon. Friend welcomes this opportunity of recording his gratitude for this generous assistance to the college, which is destined to be the University of East Africa and I personally have already thanked Dr. Williamson for his gift.

Very substantial grants have been and are being made to the college by His Majesty's Government, under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act, and by the East African Governments, but there is great need for further assistance and I hope that Dr. Williamson's fine example will encourage other donations from private sources.

Malta (Food Subsidies)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what subsidies for the food of the people of Malta have been paid or promised by Britain since the end of the war; and what further commitments Britain has made in this connection.

Contributions by His Majesty's Government in respect of the subsidisation of essential foodstuffs and commodities were, in the financial year 1946–47, £900,000, and in 1947–48, £450,000. As a result of discussions which recently took place in this country with a delegation representing the Malta Government, His Majesty's Government have undertaken to make, subject to Parliamentary approval, a further maximum contribution of £300,000 for the year 1948–49.

Cannot the Government of Malta do something to meet this need, otherwise than relying upon the overburdened British taxpayer?

We are doing a good deal. The contribution has gone down from £900,000 to £450,000, and now the maximum final contribution is £300,000, which we may not be called upon to pay.

In addition to food, what is being done to secure adequate fresh water supplies in Malta? Is there not a very real danger of the water running out and of people not having enough water?

We are well aware of that situation, but it is not a matter which arises out of the Question.

Is not £300,000 much less than the Malta Government asked for? In view of the economic difficulties suffered by Malta because of her sacrifices in the war, will the Minister reconsider her application with a view to giving her a larger sum?

This sum was agreed upon as our final Malta contribution. His Majesty's Government have made a very substantial grant to Malta under the rehabilitation scheme.

Is not the Minister aware that Malta deserves every possible assistance that this country can give to her, owing to her contribution to our cause during the war?

Is it not impossible to maintain at the same time complete self-government for Malta and a system under which she is subsidised from this country, however much one may be inclined to agree with it?

St. Lucia (Cable Ship Crew, Wages)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has considered the representations of the St. Lucia Seamen's and Waterfront Workers' Trade Union, forwarded to him by the hon. Member for Maldon; and what steps he has taken to safeguard the employment of members of this union in publicly-owned cable ships; and to protect them against undercutting of wages.

The representations related to the wages and conditions of service of the crew recruited in St. Lucia for the cable ship "Electra" belonging to Cable and Wireless Ltd. I understand that agreement has now been reached between the union and the company, and no action on the part of my right hon. Friend seems to be required.

Can my hon. Friend give an assurance that the wages now to be paid are not less than those which had been originally agreed?

I cannot give that assurance because I am not fully aware what wages have been agreed to. The answer came by cable and did not include that figure. As both sides have agreed to the figure, I think we may take it that it is satisfactory.

Bermuda (Trade Union Law)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what response has been made by the Government of Bermuda to his proposal that trade union law should be amended following on the repeal of the Trades Disputes Act in this country; and whether he is aware that the Joint Committee of the Bermuda Legislative Council and House of Assembly has, in its report, rejected all proposals to amend the Bermuda Act of 1946.

I am aware of the Joint Committee's recommendation in regard to the Bermuda Trade Union and Trade Disputes Act, 1946. I understand that this recommendation has been adopted by the Legislature and my right hon. Friend is awaiting the Governor's report.

Are we to take it, then, that the recommendation of the Secretary of State which he indicated in a reply to me on 2nd April, 1947, has been completely ignored?

I will not say that it has been ignored, but it certainly does not seem to have been followed. I would like to point out, however, that both Houses of the Legislature suggested that the recommendation and the comments should be forwarded to the new Legislature after the General Election in June. The new Legislature may be more favourably disposed to the views of my right hon. Friend.

British Guiana (Labour Disputes)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the causes of the present labour unrest in British Guiana; and what action is being taken.

I have no reason to suppose that there is general labour unrest in British Guiana. The employees of the Transport and Harbours Department struck without notice on 17th April, demanding the removal of the general manager of the department. The strike was called off on the appointment of a commission of inquiry, whose report is now awaited. In the same month a small strike of sugar workers took place, called by the Guiana Industrial Workers' Union. This strike is not supported by the Trades Union Council. Negotiations for the improvement of wages and conditions of service in other industries have so far been satisfactorily conducted between employers and employees.

Is the Minister aware that since this Question was tabled strikes have become more widespread? Cannot something be done to get the sugar planters to recognise the unions of the majority of the workers?

I am not aware of that fact. The answer I have given contains the latest information I have.

Nigeria (Mineral Royalties)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has now inquired into the position as regards mineral royalties in Nigeria; and when action can be expected on his findings.

I take it that the hon. Member is referring to the inquiry by a mining engineer regarding the mineral potentialities in a certain area of Northern Nigeria. This inquiry has now been completed. Its object was to enable negotiations to be begun between representatives of the Nigerian Government and representatives of the United Africa Company regarding the reversion to Government of the share of mineral royalties and mining rights in this area which the company held as successors to the old Royal Niger Company. These negotiations are beginning but complex technical problems are involved and they will inevitably take time to complete.

Palestine (Government Scholars)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether following the termination of His Majesty's Government Palestinian Mandate, it has been found possible to arrange with U.N.O. or any other appropriate authority for the financing of the studies of Palestine Government scholars now studying in this country under official grants until the termination of their various educational courses.

It has been hoped to arrange for this liability to be accepted by successor authorities and to that end the United Nations Palestine Commission was approached, but felt unable to accept responsibility for any arrangements extending beyond 1st October, 1948. Nevertheless, scholarships will continue to be paid from Palestine funds held by the Crown Agents for the Colonies to those students whose courses are due to be completed by the end of the academic year 1948–49. All other scholarships will have to be terminated at the end of September next, unless other arrangements can be made in the meantime.

Is the Minister satisfied that that is entirely fair to the first-year students, whether Jewish or Arab, of whom there are considerable numbers in this country and who find themselves left high and dry without funds at the end of their first, vital year of study, and realise that the money which has already been spent has been entirely wasted? Will not the Minister explore to the utmost the possibility of those students who are here being enabled to complete their studies?

I hope it will be possible for them to do so, but the matter rests very largely with whatever successor Government is set up in Palestine. Otherwise, the British taxpayer will have to share the burden for these students, or to undertake the whole of it, for several years ahead. Some fairness is due to the British taxpayer.

Is not this undoubted hardship one of the inevitable results of a policy which consisted in withdrawing all authority on one day without taking any steps whatever to provide any successor authority at all?

Is not the number of students involved relatively small, and does the present position not give a feeling of breach of faith? Cannot the Minister press his colleagues, and especially the Treasury, to try to put this matter right?

Malayan Rubber (Price)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that Great Britain is paying 3s. 2d. per lb. for U.S. tobacco, as compared with Is. 3½d. per lb. in the years before the war, he will endeavour to obtain from the U.S.A. a more adequate price for Malayan rubber, since the average of the present price which is being paid is less than the price for 1938 and the need for a contribution towards the dollar deficit is urgent.

His Majesty's Government are well aware of the importance of rubber as a dollar earner but, as was said in the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for North Salford (Mr. McAdam) on 3rd March, the rubber market is free and His Majesty's Government do not control the price in any way.

Is not the Minister aware that there must be a policy for tit-for-tat? Is he not further aware that if this country had secured the price of rubber at two and a half times as much as prewar, there would have been a contribution towards our dollar deficit of £50 million in the first six months of 1947? Is not rubber the greatest dollar earner that we have?

I quite agree, but we cannot have a free market and at the same time control the prices. We have a free market, which I thought was what the hon. Gentleman wanted.

Will the Minister, for the benefit of the House and of myself, give us the relative prices prewar and today?

I can give the House the price current last Friday. It was 13½d. per lb. in London, that is, 22 3/5 cents. The price was 23·95 cents in New York. Before the war, prices varied. Speaking from memory, I think that at one time rubber went down to as low a price of 2½d. per lb.

In view of the fact that the rubber study group has just met in Washington, has the hon. Gentleman made use of that fact to make it clear to the United States that an economy where we pay 2½ dollars for wheat and they pay about 23 cents for rubber must have a deleterious effect on the whole E.R.P. set-up?

I have here the note which the rubber study group issued in New York and it says that, after considering all the points raised to it, and many more, the group reached the conclusion that the time had not arrived for any consideration or examination of a commodity agreement.

Is it possible for us to obtain more tobacco from Imperial sources at a cheaper price than from America?

Gibraltar Dockyard (Staff)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many United Kingdom staff are now employed in Gibraltar Dockyard; what was the average prewar figure; if he is aware that a number of these men have been underemployed during the past year; and what steps are being taken to make the most economic use of them and to enable as many as possible to return to the United Kingdom.

The numbers of civilian United Kingdom staff employed in Gibraltar Dockyard in April, 1938, were industrial staff 77 and non-industrial staff 59. At present, industrial staff number 208 and non-industrial staff 86. There is no evidence to suggest that any of this staff have been or are underemployed. Reductions have been taking place throughout the past few months and more are expected.

When my hon. Friend says that there is no evidence, has he in fact made inquiries to see whether that evidence could be obtained?

A representative of the Admiralty went out to Gibraltar in February last and came back with the report which I have mentioned.

Armed Forces (Middle East)

asked the Minister of Defence if he will make a statement on British strategic commitments in the Middle East, in the light of the withdrawal of British troops from Palestine.

The withdrawal of British troops from Palestine reduces our local commitments but does not affect our strategic interest in the security and stability of the Middle East.

Food Supplies

Ice Cream

asked the Minister of Food whether it is possible to increase the supplies of ingredients for making ice cream to traders, having regard to the fact that there are now available throughout the world adequate supplies of sugar.

The supply of sugar in the United Kingdom is determined not so much by its availability overseas as by the difficulty of paying for it. At present there is not sufficient to justify an increased allocation to ice cream manufacturers.

Is the hon. Lady aware that there is a world surplus of sugar? In view of the fact that we have substantial amounts in this country, why have we to reduce the sweet ration and cut down ice cream? Why do the Government freeze everything up?

I would remind the hon. Gentleman that in Question No. 40 he said the need for a contribution towards the dollar deficit is urgent, and now he is asking for dollars for ice cream.

I am not asking for anything of the kind. It really is just too naughty of the hon. Lady.

When allocating the supplies available for ice cream, what allowance does the Minister make for shifts in population since the basic year? Is she aware that it is much easier to get ice cream in London than in the rural areas? Will she look into the question?

When an application for an ice cream licence is made, we always take that into consideration.

Sugar

asked the Minister of Food what plans have been considered to increase the output of sugar from the British sugar beet industry and increasing the volume of imports from Dominion sources, of cane sugar.

As regards home supplies, the area under sugar beet this year will be rather more than 400,000 acres, the estimated yield from which is the maximum the sugar beet factories can handle. In the case of overseas supplies, the Ministry has arranged to purchase the whole of the exportable surplus from all the sugar-growing Commonwealth countries.

In the light of that statement, is it necessary for us to import sugar from the United States through E.R.P.?

We have not imported any dollar commodities from the United States since August. The details of E.R.P. have still to be considered.

Has the hon. Lady taken any steps to get sugar as soon as possible from the Netherlands East Indies?

We are prepared to take sugar from wherever we can get it, if it is offered to us.

Will the hon. Lady bear this question in mind when the matter is being considered under E.R.P.?

Fish (Imports from U.S.A.)

asked the Minister of Food whether he will give an undertaking not to import fish from the U.S.A. under E.R.P. or any other arrangement.

I can give no undertaking at this stage as to the kinds and quantity of foodstuffs to be imported into the United Kingdom under E.R.P.

In view of the reports which we have had that fish is to be among the commodities to be sent to this country, does not the hon. Lady agree that there is plenty of fish in British waters without our having it canned from America?

If the hon. Gentleman is talking about the American Brown Book, there is nothing definite about fish being included. All it gives is some illustrations of the things that might be sent to this country.

Why cannot the hon. Lady give a reply to satisfy the House that we will do our utmost to get full supplies of British fish without getting any canned fish whatsoever from America?

If the hon. Member asks his wife, he will find that she will be very pleased to get canned fish.

If the hon. Lady says that she cannot refuse salmon from the United States, will she promise not to refuse caviare from Russia?

On the other hand, will the hon. Lady do her best to resist the temptation to buy dressed crab in tins from Russia, which she has been doing?

Is the hon. Lady aware that there is no such thing as too much fish in British waters; that we are considering a Bill to deal with over-fishing in the North Sea; and that we want as much fish as we can get.

Is the hon. Lady aware that the plutocrats of Stepney—the dockworkers and the factory workers—will be only too glad to have the caviare received in this country?

Extra Rations (Workers)

asked the Minister of Food whether he will amend the existing regulations so as to ensure that no bona, fide agricultural worker who cannot feed in a canteen is deprived of extra rations merely because he is employed by a local authority and not therefore insured as an agricultural worker.

A worker in agriculture, no matter by whom he is employed, will be allowed the special cheese ration provided he can produce an unemployment insurance card bearing a stamp marked "Agriculture." I regret that I am unable to modify this requirement.

Is the hon. Lady aware of the great feeling of injustice which exists among certain agricultural workers employed by local authorities and doing exactly the same work under exactly the same conditions as other agricultural workers? Purely because of a technicality which they cannot understand, they cannot get the extra ration.

I must remind the hon. Member that many of those workers are employed in grounds attached to institutions or public gardens and have the facilities of a canteen.

asked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the importance of attracting more workers into heavy industries and of enabling these workers to produce more, he is considering any changes in the rationing scheme to benefit those who do the hardest physical toil.

The nutritional needs of heavy workers are already covered by an extra bread ration, the additional allowances of rationed food in their canteens, and other facilities which are available. In the present supply position I am satisfied that these arrangements are the best that can be made.

Has my hon. Friend read the report of Mr. Young, a member of the Coal Board, about incentives in the coal industry and the question of rations, and also some of the speeches made yesterday at the Conference of the National Union of Agricultural Workers? Will she not give further consideration to this question of increased rations for heavy and outdoor workers?

It would be wrong to allow our policy to be dictated by expediency rather than by nutritional needs. If we included all those industries which my hon. Friend would like, if we regarded food as an incentive, it would mean that certain people doing light work in those industries would have a larger ration than people doing heavier work outside.

Is the Minister aware that the men who are doing the heaviest work, namely, agricultural workers, do not get extra rations, except bread, cheese and tea, and are unable to use a canteen at all?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the agricultural worker does get supplementary rations. He gets 12 ounces of cheese, and extra rations during certain seasonal operations.

Do the Ministry experts on nutrition advise that the existing rations, with the allowances, have or have not any prejudicial effect upon output in the heavy industries? Are they sufficient or not?

asked the Minister of Food whether he is now able to give consideration to an increase in the food ration to those engaged in heavy agricultural work.

My hon. Friend regrets that he is unable to consider any increase in the rations allowed to agricultural workers, at the present time.

Does the hon. Lady imply by her answer that the heavy agricultural worker is not comparable with the miner or that the only way to obtain adequate feeding is by owning a farm, or by working on one?

The answer is that we try to distribute equitably and if we gave the agricultural worker more, the other heavy workers would justifiably claim more.

Is the hon. Lady aware that it would help if she granted more licences for fish and chip shops in agricultural areas?

Cattle (Grading System)

asked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that the present grading system still involves long and unnecessary journeys for cattle; that dealers registered in one town often buy their cattle in markets more than 100 miles away, bring them back to their town of registration for grading and then dispatch them for slaughter to towns also far from the grading centres; and whether steps can now be taken to reduce this practice which involves unnecessary expense as well as cruelty to the animals concerned.

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to a similar question by the hon. Member for Knutsford (Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport) on 16th February. Movement of cattle to distant towns is sometimes unavoidable in the interest of ensuring a fair distribution of available supplies of home-killed meat.

Is the hon. Lady aware that I could give her a long list of such journeys performed to and from various centres all over the country and that her transport organisation in this respect is both inefficient and shameful? Will she do something about it?

I cannot agree with the last part of that supplementary question, but I should be prepared to receive the long list.

Are any steps being taken to get the Meat Trades Association to go in for a proper organisation rather than carrying on with the wartime organisation which they have had since the beginning of the war?

Will the hon. Lady consider publishing that long list so that we can all see it?

Manufactured Meat Products, Scotland

asked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that the qualifications necessary to enable a manufacturer to obtain an allocation of manufacturing meat are that the manufacturer used a ton or more of this meat prewar and sold the manufactured product wholesale; and, as in view of these qualifications, people in Scotland, where the custom is for retail butchers to manufacture and sell retail, are not receiving their fair share of this product, what steps he is taking to remedy this grievance.

The qualifications described by the hon. Member apply only to the large wholesale (Group I) manufacturers. They do not apply to the smaller manufacturers who sell by retail and who receive a percentage of their prewar usage, nor to general butchers who receive a manufacturing allowance of meat based on their current permits for ration meat. In the circumstances no special action is necessary.

Is the hon. Lady aware that, as a result of the conditions laid down, some 4,000 retail butchers in Scotland are now unable to supply their customers with manufactured meat, and that, as a result, the proportion of manufactured meat per head of population is much less in Scotland than it is in England?

The hon. and gallant Gentleman is misinformed. All the manufacturers and general butchers in Scotland are treated in exactly the same way as manufacturers and butchers in the rest of the country are treated.

Yes, but is it not the case that manufacturers and general butchers get a better allocation of their prewar basis than the small butcher who used to manufacture his own sausages and sell them retail? Is there a difference of treatment between these two classes?

No, the right hon. and learned Gentleman has not informed himself on this subject. There are four groups. The general wholesale manufacturer gets 40 per cent. of the datum period, the general butcher gets 2½ per cent. of his registered customers, the small pie manufacturers get 33⅓ per cent., and finally, the pork butcher gets 5o per cent. and that is universal.

Is the hon. Lady prepared to tell the House, then, that meat manufacturers in Scotland get the same proportion of meat per head of population as they do in England? Is it the same share in that way?

Each group of manufacturers in Scotland gets exactly the same percentage as do the manufacturers in England.

Is it not true that the butcher in Scotland used to manufacture a far larger proportion of sausages than the butcher in England, and if they now only get 2½ per cent. each, the Scotsman is at a great disadvantage? Will the hon. Lady consider an allocation of prewar usage?

If the hon. Gentleman wants me to inquire into what the butcher in Scotland gets, I must look at the whole matter again, because the Scottish butcher gets 5o per cent. more offal than the English butcher.

Because there is a lot of home produced meat in Scotland and offal deteriorates quickly and, therefore, we pass it on to the retailer as quickly as we can.

asked the Minister of Food what allocation of their prewar usage retail butchers in Scotland who manufactured the greater proportion of manufactured meat products prewar are now receiving.

In all parts of the United Kingdom the manufacturing allowance of retail butchers is based, not on prewar usage, but on their current permits for ration meat.

If the result is as I have said does it not mean that the population in Scotland are receiving less than in England?

The result is 2½ per cent. for Scottish butchers and 2½ per cent. for English butchers.

Has my hon. Friend considered the fact that the ordinary retail butcher in Scotland was also a manufacturer of sausages? He was not in the category of the people she was speaking about at all. Will my hon. Friend try to find out if it is not the case that the meat with which they are now supplied is deprived of all the trimmings which they had formerly to make sausages, and that these people now have no meat at all with which to make sausages?

As it is so complicated will the hon. Lady be good enough to look into it again?

asked the Minister of Food how many Scottish butchers manufactured sausages before the war; and how many of such butchers who manufactured less than one ton of sausages a week and who manufactured more than one ton of sausages a week, respectively, are now receiving an allocation of manufacturing meat.

Nearly all Scottish butchers manufactured sausages before the war. I do not know the precise numbers. All the butchers referred to by the hon. Member receive allowances of meat for making sausages or other meat products on the same basis as butchers in England and Wales.

Could my hon. Friend say whether a Scottish sausage looks exactly the same as the English sausage?

Amended Order

asked the Minister of Food whether, with reference to paragraph (4) of Appendix II of the Seventh Report from the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments, he decided to make an additional amendment to S.I., 1948, No. 724 on the ground that it might impose a charge.

Will the hon. Lady say what was the precise reason for making an additional amendment? I make no complaint of the amendment being made.

I think the hon. Gentleman will remember that on 22nd April I undertook to amend the Order so that the acquitted man should be dealt with justly and, after I gave that undertaking, we came to the conclusion that it was necessary to remove any possibility of doubt that the Order was not within the powers given to us by Regulations 55 and 55AB, and that is why the Amendment was made.

Tomatoes (Allocation)

asked the Minister of Food why the area of Leicestershire which has hitherto received 90 per cent. of its tomatoes from the Channel Islands is now to be excluded from the schedule of areas receiving an allocation from that source; and if he will give an assurance that adequate supplies will be available from other sources to meet the requirements of Leicestershire.

No part of the country will be stopped from obtaining tomatoes from the Channel Islands. By voluntary arrangement a proportion of the home produced and Guernsey tomatoes will be sent to areas short of local supplies and the remainder, together with tomatoes imported from Holland, can be sent to any part of the United Kingdom.

Imported Cherries

asked the Minister of Food whether it is his intention to continue to permit the importation of cherries during the period of the British cherry crop and in the two weeks immediately preceding it.

The home-grown cherry crop is small and usually not enough to provide even a pound per head of the population. The crop this year is expected to be smaller than last and in these corcumstances I can see no justification for prohibiting imports.

Will the hon. Lady see that the imported cherries this year go to the North of England and Scotland and to the markets where the Kent and Herefordshire cherries do not go, and not, as last year, come on to the London market a week before the Kent cherries come in?

Is the Minister aware that they do not go to deficiency areas? Last year, when the Kent crop was just ready to come on to the London market, it was swamped with continental cherries and the result was that the Kent cherries had to be sent to the West of England where we had plenty of cherries?

Custard Powder

asked the Minister of Food if he is aware that the alloca- tion of British made custard powder to retailers in Kent has been cut; and if he will state the reason.

My Department does not allocate custard powder to retailers, but if the hon. Member will give me particulars, I will make inquiry.

Is the hon. Lady aware that in East Kent English custard powder has disappeared completely from the shops simultaneously with the appearance of large quantities of Dutch custard powder?

The answer is simple; there is a shortage of custard powder, the English custard powder was used up, and we imported custard powder from the Netherlands.

Is the hon. Lady aware that retailers are saying that the shortage is due to the fact that the British custard powder is being exported?

asked the Minister of Food if he is aware that Donsko custard powder, made in Holland, is on sale in East Kent; and if it is the intention of his Ministry to encourage imports of custard powder.

The demand for custard powder is greatly in excess of the amount that can be produced in this country owing to the limited quantity of starch available. Under the terms of the trade agreement with the Netherlands provision has been made for the importation of some custard powder, and East Kent is receiving its share.

Socialised Industries (Questions to Ministers)

I rise on a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, affecting the rights of the House, of which I think you have been advised. Last evening I tabled a Question addressed to the Minister of Fuel and Power regarding last Sunday's breakdown in electricity supply. I understand I am not allowed to give the terms of the Question. The Table turned it down on the now familiar grounds that it was a matter for the National Electricity Authority and not for the Minister. I was not satisfied with that reply and I asked that the Question be put to you personally. I understand that you were good enough today to consider it, but that you have confirmed the views of the Clerks at the Table.

May I respectfully ask you, Sir, to reconsider the decision, for the following reason. It is understandable and might be considered reasonable to say that detailed Questions affecting the day to day administration of a nationalised industry should not be allowed in the House. That is the rule on which we work now. But I respectfully submit to you that so serious a breakdown as took place last Sunday, stopping transport, broadcasting, industrial plant and affecting millions of homes, is a very different matter. May I put it this way? Suppose the breakdown had not affected a part of the country, but the whole nation and had lasted, not for an hour or two, but for a day, or two days, as is possible. Surely, no one would then suggest that that matter would be avoided by the Government and that the House were disallowed from asking Questions of the Minister in such a grave event? The difference between that possibility and what happened on Sunday is only a difference in degree, and I suggest that a new principle arises in view of this event which has not arisen before, since we began to nationalise industry. I suggest that the Rule under which we operate cannot be applied to such circumstances. Would it not be possible for you, Sir, to exercise some discretion in a matter of this kind and to say that this kind of Question bearing upon such a serious event as that of last Sunday ought to be allowed and ought to be answered by the Minister?

In view of the fact that I have had a similar experience in regard to the Ministry of Fuel and Power I wish to ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, not that I am questioning the powers of the Table. The Question I put did not deal with the detailed effects of anything in the ambit of the Coal Board, but it was a question asking whether the Minister had a report as regards a scheme about which his Parliamentary Secretary had spoken in public in Manchester as to the grading of coal and the prices thereof. That Question, which asked for the report on which the Parliamentary Secretary had based his statement in Manchester, was refused. I would like your guidance on that.

It seems to me that I am asked for guidance on a good many matters not directly related. I have no knowledge of the Question about coal. I do not know whether the Question was submitted, or not. I cannot say anything about that, because I do not know.

As regards the Question referred to by the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart), I saw it and came to the conclusion that the two parts of the Question were quite correctly refused at the Table. The first part asked for the reason why this breakdown took place. I understand the Electricity Board have given those reasons to the public, and that is their duty and part of their administration. The second part of the Question asked if the Minister would take over power and run electricity matters in order to avoid further things happening. That, of course, is what the Act of Parliament does not do.

With great respect, the Question asked what action the Minister has taken to inquire into the causes of the breakdown and what steps he proposed to take to prevent a recurrence of that breakdown.

The hon. Member asks "what steps is the Minister going to take," which means that he must take steps to take over the Electricity Board himself.

I think there is an analogy here. Before the war, before any of these industries were nationalised, if there was, for instance, a serious railway accident, the Minister could be asked a Question, or if there was a coal mining accident, he could be asked a Question. I would like to know whether this Ruling means that we should be told that in the event of a serious railway accident we should be debarred from asking Questions of the Minister about the accident—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Well, I would like to know.

I cannot see that there is an exact analogy. In the case of a serious railway accident there always have been Questions asked, and always would be. It is not necessarily a Question on responsibility so much as, in the case of a coalmine accident, for instance, a Question on sentimental grounds.

Would it be true to say that it was always on sentimental grounds? Certainly there was concern about it, but it was the duty of the Ministers to give information at their disposal, and I suggest that the Minister if he had information about this electricity breakdown, which was a great national event, should give that information to the House.

Suppose there was a breakdown of any coalmine before the war, a Question on that would be refused, but if there was an accident, it would not be a Question about administration, but one on sentimental grounds.

Is it not the case that in the case of a railway accident, or a coal mine accident, the Minister concerned has a responsibility to investigate and cause an inquiry to be made and is not that the reason why the Question is legitimate. It is not on the day-to-day management of the electricity authority?

Following the statements made by the right hon. Gentleman, I admit that this is a hypothetical question, but it is not so very hypothetical. Supposing we had a national breakdown in our electricity supply which lasted for 24 hours, surely the Minister and the Government could not escape responsibility in the matter of reporting to the House?

I agree that that would be a major matter, but supposing, for instance, one town had a breakdown in electricity, would that be a reason for having a Question asked when every town may have a breakdown of a few hours? We must be reasonable.

I suggest that it is because of that difficulty, the obvious difference between a national breakdown and a single village breakdown, that some discretion should be left with someone, and I submit that it should be left with you, Sir.

We have debated this matter once and it is a matter for the House of Commons to decide. It seems rather intolerable that whenever there is a doubtful Question it should be submitted to the Speaker and his Ruling should be questioned. I do my best to find a reasonable answer and take the best advice I can and it seems to me unfortunate if we cannot come to an agreement amongst ourselves about what is the scope of the Minister and the Question. It is rather a difficult decision to throw at me every time. I think the Lord President of the Council once said that it is a matter for trial and error, and as we go on we will see. This is a case which might be considered.

I understand the difficulties of the situation. It seems to me that the line is between what is a matter of day-to-day management in an industry and when does a matter of nationwide concern arise. I say there is a line which it appears difficult to draw, but, at the same time, we surely have a duty to put Questions which seem to us to be of national concern.

Quite independently of whether any industry is nationalised or not, which is one question, surely if there is dislocation of communications over wide areas of the country, it has always been part of the duties of Members of this House to put Questions to Ministers as to the causes of the dislocation and the steps which they propose to take to prevent a recurrence. Surely it is not a question in this case of whether we ought to be asking Questions of Ministers about nationalised industries. The question is whether we are entitled, in regard to nationalised or nonnationalised industries, to put Questions relating to cases of widespread dislocation in the country.

Would I be misinterpreting your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, if I said that it was based on the particular Question which it was sought to put down and that you have not laid down that Questions will not be accepted where Ministers have a clear responsibility in the matter, and can fairly be called upon to answer? Was not the Question refused because its form was such as to show clearly that the Minister had no responsibility in the matter of the particular Question which the hon. Member sought to put down?

With regard to the statement on coal policy in Manchester, the Parliamentary Secretary made a statement about a scheme for the grading of coal and an alteration in prices in relation to quality. I approached the Table with a Question to ask for details of that particular scheme and whether a report had been given to the Minister on that point. It was ruled out of Order. I would like your Ruling, Sir, whether it is the case that we cannot ask a Question, even when a Minister has made a public statement regarding his Department?

I told the hon. and gallant Member that I knew nothing about the point he raised. I cannot judge the actual facts of the case merely as they are thrown at me in this way. I must respectfully ask for notice of such a Question. I did not even know that the Question to which the hon. and gallant Member refers had been refused at the Table.

May I put it to you, Sir, that the Army, Navy and Air Force are nationalised Services, and we can put Questions to Ministers in relation to those Services on behalf of constituents? If industries are to be nationalised, it will be a most convenient thing for any Government, if we are not able to ask questions about them. In that event shall we not drift into something rather in the form of a Reichstag in which a Member cannot raise any questions in relation to his constituency or his constituents? Would it not be a most dangerous thing for any Government to be in such a position?

In the event of a breakdown of this character, if, as the Lord President has said, it is the practice for Ministers to make statements on similar occasions, and in view of the fact that the public has so far only had the statement made by Lord Citrine, is there no way in which Members of this House of Commons, whose constituencies are affected, and where public opinion is very anxious, can put a Question to the Minister concerned to get a statement from that Minister of what has happened?

Perhaps I might make it quite clear once again that, as the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) pointed out, I objected not so much to the Question itself as to its form. The Minister is not allowed by Statute to do what the hon. Member asked for in the second part of his Question, and that was bound to be out of Order. The hon. Member asks what action will the Minister take. The Minister is by Statute prevented from taking action. It is the Electricity Board who have to take action. Therefore that part of the Question was bound to be out of Order.

With great respect, in view of the admittedly new situation which has been brought about by the events of Sunday, and the embarrassment which you, Sir, confess to feeling upon this matter, may I ask the Lord President of the Council whether he would consider what has happened today, and perhaps make a statement to the House reviewing the situation and, I would hope, suggesting some broader rule so that the House would be entitled to ask Questions upon broad issues that arise affecting one Minister or another?

With even greater respect, may I put this point to you, Mr. Speaker, bearing upon the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman)? Surely, an attempt might well be made to put down a Question dealing with something which, while it was within the Minister' competence, would be refused by the Clerks at the Table, because of the way in which the Question was framed. Is it not possibly the case in relation to the particular Question about which the hon. Member has made complaint that had it been put down with the genuine object of securing of information rather than the scoring of a political point, it might have been in a form capable of acceptance?

In accordance with the Ruling which you gave on two previous occasions, Sir, in reply to a suggestion by the noble Lord the right hon. Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton), would it not be competent for the hon. Member to raise the subject matter of, at any rate, the first part of his Question, on the Adjournment Motion?

As regards the form of the second part of the Question which the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart) sought to put, is it not possible, with great respect, that you made a mistake, Sir, in saying that the Minister had no power to take any action? I speak without the relevant Statute before me but I think that it gives the Minister a power to give a direction to the Board concerned. May that not affect the correctness of the Question put by the hon. Member for East Fife, and the Ruling which you gave?

Further to that point of Order. Section 5 (1) of the Electricity Act says—

"The Minister may, after consultation with the Central Authority, give to that Authority such directions of a general character as to the exercise and performance by the Authority of their functions under this Act as appear to the Minister to be requisite in the national interest, and the Authority shall give effect to any such directions."

That Subsection relates to general directions. The Question asked what action the Minister would take.

With your permission, Sir, I might say, in answer to the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart) that I will certainly look into the point he has raised. This is a difficult matter, and as I have said before, we learn as we go, and this is one of the experiences on the way. I am most anxious and if I may say so, emphatic, to repeat that it is very undesirable for the House to develop the practice of putting Questions on fairly small matters of day-to-day management. That would demoralise these great undertakings and would really make them "Civil Service and red tape" in their mentality. Nevertheless prima facie I see the point which the hon. Member has raised on the question of a large-scale happening. I do not quite see at the moment how we are going to solve the question. The problem is where to draw the line. Nevertheless, I recognise the point that has been raised. May I say that I deeply sympathise with you, Sir, and the Table about the difficulty of Rulings on this matter. While I cannot give any undertaking about what the outcome will be, I will look into the matter not with too much optimism, and see if any solution is possible. I will look into the point as thoroughly as I can, if the House will give me time, and see if a statement can be made at some future date.

Would it be possible to put down a Question to ask whether the Minister would make a statement on the electricity breakdown last Sunday?

I should like notice of that Question. Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will submit it to the Table and then we will discuss it.

New Commons Chamber (Ceremony)

May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, this Question of which I have given private notice: if you will cause a record of the proceedings and speeches at the ceremony of the laying of the foundation stone of the new Commons Chamber to be included in the OFFICIAL REPORT of today's proceedings? May I add that not only would such a publication in a semi-permanent form give great pleasure to hon. Members, but there would appear to be a recent precedent for it, in the publication in the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Service of Thanksgiving at the Church of St. Margaret after the cessation of the recent war.

I am afraid there is a difficulty there. I quite appreciate what the hon. Member has said, but, of course, the ceremony today was not an actual proceeding of the House of Commons. When we went to St. Margaret's we adjourned in order to go, and that was a proceeding of the House of Commons. Therefore, it is not possible to put a record of today's ceremony in HANSARD or in any Journal of the House. The mere fact that the question has been raised and I have answered it, will, no doubt, indicate that the ceremony took place. I suggest—I do not know how it would be received—that if hon. Members would like a verbatim account, I have no doubt every word was taken down, because there were many reporters there, and if the Government, after consultation with the Table, saw fit, no doubt a White Paper could be issued which would then go into our records and become part of the permanent records of the House of Commons. But that, of course, is not a matter for me

I am quite sure we should be very pleased to consider the matter in consultation with you, Mr. Speaker.

Business of the House

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, may I make the following statement regarding the Business of the House?

Amendments to the Motor Spirit (Regulation) Bill are expected to be received from another place today, and in view of the urgency of the Bill, we shall ask the House to consider the Lords Amendments at the end of Business tomorrow (Thursday).

Orders of the Day

Employment and Training Bill

As amended (in the Standing Committee) considered.

CLAUSE 7.—(Central Juvenile Employment Executive.)

3.55 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 5, line 42, to leave out "juvenile," and to insert "youth."

This is the first of a series of Amendments dealing with the title of the service to be provided under Part II of the Bill. In Committee we had a great deal of discussion about this word "juvenile." That description, it was felt, was offensive to the young people who would come under this service for advice. We gave an undertaking to reconsider the whole matter, and while it may not find favour with everybody, we feel that this is the best compromise. I think it does incorporate the suggestions made by the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) during the Committee stage.

There are six Amendments in the same words. If the House agrees I will put them all in one.

I should be ungrateful if I did not say how glad I am that the hon. Gentleman has accepted the suggestion I made. I had not seen the fresh Amendment Paper until this moment but I prefer, in fact, his first choice. He originally put down "youth advice." I thought the word "advice" just gave the necessary emphasis to carry the idea of something more than mere employment and assistance. I am sure that he has changed his mind for very good reasons. I thought that in practice the words would very quickly be shortened to "youth employment." Therefore I raise no objection. I think that, on the whole, we have done the best that is possible.

We agree that the present choice of the Minister is certainly very much better than his last. The word we disliked was "juvenile," and I am grateful to him for making the change.

Amendment agreed to.

Consequential Amendment made.

CLAUSE 8.—(National Juvenile Employment Council.)

Amendment made: In page 6, line 8, leave out "Juvenile," and insert "Youth."—[ Mr. Ness Edwards. ]

Consequential Amendments made.

CLAUSE 9.—(Juvenile Employment Committees.)

Amendment made: In page 6, line 29, leave out "Juvenile," and insert "Youth."—[ Mr. Ness Edwards. ]

I beg to move, in page 6, line 42, at end, to insert:

We do not want to have some one who has some knowledge of industry put on to those particular committees unless it is knowledge that is gained from actual experience of the character of the work that is to be done by the juveniles. If the trades councils were brought into consultation, it would not be just a question of a particular trade union official being brought in. Very often it would be a matter of getting a shop steward right from the industry itself to participate in this work; one who had been through hall the youthful experiences in the industry, who had developed from and had a thorough knowledge of all the processes and difficulties and of all the things that might occur and troubles that could be avoided. If these committees are to be successful, and the job done in the way it should be done, it is essential that trades councils in the localities should be taken into consultation with a view to getting representatives on to the committees right from the industry itself. I would ask the Minister to consider the Amendment very seriously.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I do so just to give the hon. Member a run, and because I think it is very important that there should be people on the committee with an intimate knowledge of what is going on in the workshops. It is not however always true that the representative of the trade union is that person.

4.0 p.m.

This Amendment is unnecessary. This matter is decided under the regulations in which it is provided that there shall be representatives of both sides of industry, employers and workers. In order to disabuse my hon. Friend's mind, I would point out that there are six representatives of the workers and six representatives of the employers on these committees. I must join issue with him on the subject of the nominating authority. The trades councils are composed of representatives of trade unions, and our present method is to ask the trade unions to nominate people for consideration by ourselves for these committees. To say that the trades councils which consist of representatives of trade unions are much more democratic than the trade unions themselves, is rather stretching the matter.

Let me put this point. The tendency always has been for trade union officials to be nominated for these posts. Suppose a trades council had been the nominating authority. When the right hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) was working in Parkhead was it not possible that he could have been appointed? Nobody had greater knowledge of young people and greater interest in their welfare than he.

We have improved a little since those days. I have a fairly wide knowledge of this problem. We get the fellows from the workshop, the bench and the coalface. I am sure that my hon. Friend does not intend to cast any reflection on the rank and file people who sit on this type of committee advising the Ministry of Labour. There is also the problem that there are substantial areas in this country where there are no trades councils. There it would be left to anybody to select the nominees. This matter has been considered by the British Employers' Federation and by the T.U.C. We consider that it is far better to stick to the present practice and to invite the trade unions of the locality to make the nominations direct.

This is an interesting point, but I do not know whether this Amendment would be the most effective way of dealing with the problem. I am quite sure that the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) is not seeking to cast any reflection upon the capacity or experience of trade unions. However, it is important to try to get men on these bodies who have had practical technical experience of up to date measures.

Amendment negatived.

CLAUSE 10.—(Powers of local education authorities.)

Amendment made: In page 7, line 20, leave out "Juvenile," and insert "Youth."—[ Mr. Ness Edwards. ]

On a point of Order. There is an Amendment in my name on the Order Paper, in page 7, line 38, after "Act," insert:

"or such longer period as the Minister may in any particular case allow."

Do I understand that that Amendment is not to be called? It was not discussed in this form in Standing Committee.

I have not selected that Amendment. As a matter of fact, it was discussed for some considerable time in Committee. I propose to select the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member in page 9, line 33.

CLAUSE 13.—(Notification of particulars.)

I beg to move, in page 9, line 31, to leave out "and."

I suggest that it would be convenient if the Committee dealt at the same time with the next Amendment in line 33. There was a good deal of discussion on this matter during the Committee stage. It appeared to me that everyone was concerned that the records should ultimately be destroyed. There was a slight difference of opinion as to the period which should expire before the destruction of the records. We are providing here that when the regulations are made they shall contain a provision for the destruction of the records. The Amendment is designed to meet the point of view expressed in the Committee. Later, when we discuss the regulations, we can discuss the period after which the records must be destroyed.

I should like to thank the Minister for meeting us in this way. Hon. Members were concerned during the Committee stage as to the exact date when the records should be destroyed. I think it was said that they should be destroyed when they became obsolete. I hope that that loose wording will not be used in the regulations. It is entirely a matter of opinion when the reports become obsolete, and I hope that a specific period will be given.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 9, line 33, at end, insert:

"and for requiring such records to be destroyed after such period as may be prescribed by the regulations."—[ Mr. Ness Edwards. ]

I beg to move, in page 9, line 33, at the end, to insert: of the parents of children from grammar schools, modern and technical schools and all the secondary schools by whatever name they are known.

The Bill rightly recognises that compulsory vocational guidance is a mistake. I am a little nervous of the people who dared to recommend that in the Innes Report. Let us see where we are going. Some people have children allocated to a type of school by a local authority and registered for compulsory guidance, which is followed up by a secret dossier passed from the education office to the employment office. All this is very neat and tidy, but where does the parent come into the picture? Why should there be all this confidential matter? What is there about this which is confidential? I remember some of my reports which used to refer to mistakes in the playground and in the classroom and contained a whole lot of doubtful statements which were treated with much respect, and with a certain amount of humour by my friends. Of course, this kind of thing may not come within the meaning of this Bill, which is dealing with physical ability and with certain school records and also with a lot of other things. Do teachers really know how to prepare a comprehensive card index of their pupils?

Last night I heard a most distinguished American educationist warn a large audience of teachers and parents about the fallibility of intelligence tests, and yet they are to be part of this system. All this is in the Innes Report. I do not believe that there is any need for secrecy in this matter. Frankly, I have not yet been convinced by anything said on behalf of the Government that there is any reason for it. We are told that we can pray against the regulations. I do not think that those Prayers will make any difference. I would like to see it clearly stated in the Bill that this information should be passed on from the school to the employment officer and that the parents should know about it. After all, the parent is to accompany a boy to the employment officer, and, if that officer has information about the boy which the parent has not received, there is surely something wrong with the arrangement. For these reasons, I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will accept the spirit and possibly the wording of this Amendment.

I beg to second the Amendment.

At present, when a pupil leaves school the practice is that a confidential report is made to the Ministry of Labour. While I as a teacher made many of these reports, it never occurred to me that, if parents were to request to see the report, the request would be denied. In view of the fact that we are now venturing into a much larger experiment, in which it is essential to have the support of the parents, I suggest that the Minister should give very careful consideration to this Amendment. If he does not, he will create a conflict, because all through the school life of the pupil the school furnishes to the parent periodic reports on the progress of the child, and it would seem to me to be merely logical that that practice should continue into the period of this new service. It would be rather anomalous if a parent, having a full knowledge of the progress which a boy or girl has made during the school period, should be given, when he goes to the employment officer, information which would appear to conflict with the view which he had formed from the school reports. That is a possibility, and a natural result would be for the parent to say to the employment officer, "Can I have a look at this report, on which you furnish an estimate that is in contradiction to the estimate which I have tried to formulate from the school reports?" In order that such a contradiction or such a conflict might be resolved, I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he should seriously consider adopting this Amendment.

I also hope the Parliamentary Secretary will accept, at the very least, the intentions of this Amendment. Many of us are a little disturbed in our minds as to the effect of many otherwise admirable developments in recent times on the mutual relationships and confidence between parents and children, and that disquiet is somewhat increased by the attitude which the Government have so far adopted on this matter. I cannot visualise any possible report on a child which it is right to give to a Minister of the Crown but wrong to give to the parent of that child. I cannot imagine any such report, and, if the Minister resists the Amendment, I hope he will give us some examples of the type of report which he considers it right should be given to his right hon. Friend but which it would be wrong to give to the parent. If they resist this Amendment, the Government will be making a great mistake from the point of view of the success of this scheme. Parents, naturally, are going to be suspicious of an arrangement by which reports are made on their children of which they are not entitled, as of absolute right, to see a copy. The whole physchological atmosphere, which is the important thing in this subject, is going to be poisoned if these suspicions are created.

4.15 p.m.

The only other point is that there is always the possibility that even the best schools may make some errors. If the report is seen by the parent, he will have the chance to object to any error in the report and be able to settle the whole matter quickly and efficiently. If parents are not able to see the reports, the possibility of their correcting any errors vanishes. I hope the Minister will reconsider the matter. It is not good enough merely to say that, in general, parents will be furnished with these reports, and I apprehend that the Parliamentary Secretary may say that. What is necessary is that he should give the parents an absolute right, so that those who make the reports will know that the parents will see them, and also in order that the Ministry will know that the parents will see them and that they will be entitled to see them. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, who has the success of this scheme very much at heart, even at this late stage to accept the spirit and intentions of the Amendment, though not necessarily its precise drafting.

I support the appeal made by my hon. Friends to the Minister, and I do so on two grounds: The first is the desirability of maintaining the confidence of the parent in the working of this scheme. It is absolutely essential that we should create confidence in the parents and, after we have created that confidence, should carry them with us. My second reason for supporting the Amendment is born of my experience of dealing with parents and children over the greater part of my career in public life. I have always maintained, and I think I can claim to have met with some degree of success on this matter, that it is essential, in every conceivable way to carry the parent or guardian of a child with one in arrangements of this kind.

There is nothing revolutionary about this Amendment; it is common practice. In the district from which I come the reports of the elementary schools, technical schools and grammar schools are all submitted to the parents, and I cannot understand why the Minister, who is so anxious to promote a scheme almost reaching the acme of perfection, should resist this Amendment so rigidly. Surely, as hon. Members of this House, we are entitled to put forward Amendments from our experience of these matters, and to expect that the Ministry will be prepared to accept them, rather than be rigid and persistent as they are in fighting the incorporation of this Amendment into the Bill? I join with my hon. Friends in pleading with the Minister to accept the Amendment. There is nothing revolutionary about it, but, by its acceptance, he will carry the confidence of both the parents and the employers who have to deal with these children when they enter into industry.

I am sorry to break the harmony of these proceedings, but I really must support the Minister in his decision not to accept this Amendment. If it were accepted, we should be defeating the very purpose of this scheme. In the Second Reading Debate the Minister of Labour said:

"The information will be in the form of a report which will be a confidential document. The juvenile employment officer will not be allowed to let that document out of his hands for any person to inspect it, or for any cause whatever."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th April, 1948; Vol. 449, c. 1377.]

The right hon. Member for Epsom (Mr. McCorquodale), who followed the Minister, said:

"I am sure that those who are to use the form will not use it exclusively."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th April, 1948; Vol. 449, c. 1383.]

—and he said "it would be a confidential document."

Perhaps the hon. Member will permit me to interrupt him. Speaking for those on my side of the House I said definitely in column 70:

"I mentioned the question that the report should always be available to the parent. I do think that is important."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee A ; 4th May, 1948; e. 70.]

I am reading from the report of the Second Reading Debate, where the right hon. Gentleman said:

"It will, however, have to be treated not only confidentially but with some care.".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th April, 1948; Vol. 449, c. 1383.]

Where does the right hon. Gentleman stand now?

I stand surely on the fact that it has to be a confidential document about the child, but surely it has to be shown first to the parents; that is not breaking any of the confidence. The suggestion that the parents should not see it is monstrous. No education authority would uphold it for one moment.

But the right hon. Gentleman followed the Minister who had just said:

"The juvenile employment officer will not be allowed to let that document out of his hands …for any cause whatever."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th April, 1948; Vol. 449, C. 1377.]

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epsom is well aware of what is meant by confidential.

I am sorry to contradict for a third time, but if the hon. Member likes to look at another column of the same Debate he will see in the middle of column 67 I said:

"We feel that something should be put into the Bill recognising this point and insisting that this report should be confidenial. It should be available to the parents and to the local officer who is carrying out the scheme."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee A ; 4th May, 1948; c. 68.]

That I stand by.

The right hon. Gentleman is now referring to the Report of the proceedings in Standing Committee. I am referring to the Second Reading Debate, where the Minister definitely said that the report must be confidential and not shown to the parents, and where the right hon. Gentleman followed him on the same day. What he said in the Committee subsequently is a different matter. He may have changed his view, but on Second Reading he took the same view as the Minister and the Ince Report that the document should be confidential. Now, I do not think anyone would believe that either the Minister or the right hon. Gentleman uses words without great thought. The experience I have had, and the experience of all connected with administrative matters, leads me to realise that there is a big threat involved in this question of confidence. I do not think what the Minister said was lightly said, without good and substantial reason. This Amendment does not contain anything democratic; I think it is rather demagogic.

The hon. Member keeps saying there are reasons for this decision. What are the reasons?

All I was saying was that right hon. Gentlemen have great regard to what they are saying and had good reason for what they said. Statements are being made now that there is a big demand by parents to see the documents. I do not think anybody at any time has information of any parent in an interview with the juvenile employment officer saying, "You have something there I have not seen and which I should know." I do not believe any parent ever took that view with a juvenile employment officer, because every parent knows that if he wants to have a confidential talk about his child all he needs to do is to go to the school and have a confidential chat with the teacher, to say, "I am a little worried about my lad and want to know what you think about him."

Nobody has ever said that parents have a grievance in this matter. I agree that it is easy to encourage parents to feel that they have a grievance, to persuade them they have a grievance which previously they did not know they had, but in my experience I have never found any parent who thought he had a grievance because there was something in the juvenile employment office to which he did not have access, because he well knew that whatever was on the card he could find out for himself by going to the teacher and saying, "Tell me privately and tell me honestly what you think about my lad."

No parent ever complained that something had been kept from him, because nothing is kept from him. There is nothing on this form which the parent himself cannot find out by a visit to the school. The teacher, knowing he is talk- ing in confidence to the parent and that he is not putting something down publicly, will tell the parent honestly what he thinks is wrong. Surely the purpose of this report is to give a perfectly honest report so that the employer can be fairly treated, and the child can be fairly treated, and other children, who perhaps are competing for the same post, can also be fairly treated. An employer should know all about the child which it is necessary for him to know in his business, and there may be things that an employer should know which one would not be prepared to put on paper for public consumption.

The hon. Member for York (Mr. Corlett) has already pointed out and agreed that the information which he is prepared to deny from the employment officer, can be obtained by going to the schools. Now he is indicating that some of that information should not be given at all

No, I said the parents could find out privately. That is a great difference. This report is a different matter entirely because it is made public for all the members of the committee to see, and a teacher will not make such a helpful statement if it is not to be confidential. The purpose of the report should be to be helpful to the employer and, therefore, the employer should know all about the child or he may be placing the child in circumstances in which the child should not be placed. It is quite possible that if this report is made public he will not get that information because he will not have knowledge which the teacher would give privately. If anyone insists that this information must be made public the teacher will rightly shrink from saying anything harmful about the child. He will praise where he can, but he will soft-pedal and soft-pedal very quickly where he is saying something which may be harmful to the child. He will make a non-committal report. He is not going to lose friends among parents, and he is not going to lose sleep at night by writing something which may do him great harm. He has to live with those parents and in that district. He may have friends socially. He will not put something on that report which will lose him friends and make him enemies.

4.30 p.m.

I know from my own experience about these things. I remember in my early teaching days making up these reports at the end of the term and thinking, "Now I will let the parents know what the lad is like," and I did, and I prepared perfectly honest reports. My headmaster, who was a very wise and experienced man, asked me if that was what I thought. I said, "The reports are honest and it will be a good thing for these parents and the lads to know. It will be a good thing for the father to know these things, and I shall be getting something off my chest which I have thought for a long time." But my headmaster said, "Leave in the good things, but water down all the others. You may say that the boy is sometimes not amenable to discipline, but do not say that he is insolent. Water it down, or otherwise you will damage yourself, you will damage the school, and you will damage me." I did water the reports down and everybody was happy. I was happy, because I had no trouble; the child was happy, and the parents were happy. But the report was valueless.

I think the hon. Member at the moment is doing great disservice to the teaching profession, and an even greater disservice to parents. However, what I should like him to explain is, what is there that is to be put into a report that a committee can see but that the child's parents cannot? That is the point.

I am saying that the child's parent can see it if he wants to by going to the school and seeing the teacher. If there is confidence between the teacher and the child that is what the parent will do. We are constantly running away from the idea that a parent, if he has rights, has also responsibilities. He has the right, let him go to the school and talk to the teacher but do not say that the teacher must invite it in a public report. The teachers have to live with the parents. We find the same sort of thing in the juvenile courts. We find teachers asking themselves, "What ought I to put down about the boy? Is this private and confidential, or is the parent to see it? If so, I will put in a different report." That is human and natural.

But that is what happens when teachers have to write reports. I hope the Minister will stick to his guns and insist that the report should be confidential, because only then will the report be an honest one and only then will the teacher be able to make sure that everything is done for everybody's good.

I support the Amendment. I cannot support the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Corlett). It seems from what he says that it is a crime for a parent to have the right to know what his child has done at school. My hon. Friend says that the parent can go to the teacher and have a confidential chat, and that it would be wrong for the parent to see what is in a special document. I have one of these documents.

The report might have references not only to school matters but to home surroundings.

I am one of those who believe that the school authorities have no right to put down anything about home surroundings. Home surroundings have nothing to do with the school teacher or with the Ministry of Labour. Those are matters which are dealt with by entirely different people: they are the responsibilities of parents. I cannot accept the argument that we must have people going round prying into the condition of home surroundings. I have here a record card which teachers are supposed to fill in, and it has 6o-odd questions on it. I speak as a parent, and I should claim the right to look at that document to see precisely what the teacher has said about my child. Am I as a parent to be told that I am the only one who is not to have the right to see it? That is sheer impudence. From the human point of view it is wrong to deny any parent the right to look at such a document. If a parent has that sense of responsibility which induces him to go to the school to look at the document, obviously he should have the right to see it There will be probably many parents who will not want to take that trouble, but it is only right that it should be in the Bill that a parent who wants to see such a document shall have the right to see it.

The hon. Member for York (Mr. Corlett) said that the employer should have confidential information about the child, but not the parent. Would the hon. Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. Mellish) agree with that?

I certainly would not agree. The overruling interest of the child is the responsibility of the parent, and not of the Ministry of Labour or the Ministry of Education.

I hope that parents, sooner than approach the Youth Employment Service with this attitude, will exercise their rights and remain away. The most important thing about this scheme is that there shall be complete confidence on the part of the parent, the child, the headmaster and the youth employment officer. There must be complete confidence that what is being done is in the best interests of the child. Having established, I hope, the right atmosphere in which to operate this service, let us look at the mechanics of the thing. The youth employment officer will receive from the headmaster of the school a document indicating the health, ability, educational attainments and aptitudes of each pupil.

I must confine myself to what is provided for—the child's health, ability, educational attainments and aptitudes. It will be recollected that we discussed this question of interests. I felt it was too dangerous, and eliminated it in the interest of the child. Is what the headmaster has to say under any one of those heads a matter for quarrelling or bad feeling between him and the parent of the child?

That obviously is not a matter for bad feeling. The parent will receive from the school a regular school record. What we want to establish is that this information, which is wanted for the purposes of advising on careers, jobs and employment, shall be absolutely confidential. Neither the employer nor anyone else ought to have the right to see that document. I think I carry the House with me completely when I say that no stranger ought to be allowed to see it. No employer ought to see it. The next thing with which the House will agree is that this document must be destroyed within a certain time, and that it should be treated with the utmost confidence. The parent goes to the school where the interview is taking place. The headmaster is there, the youth employment officer is there, the parent is there, and the pupil is there. The school record and the report to the Ministry of Labour are there. The discussion takes place with everybody involved. Let us consider the worst case that could arise, a case in which there is a conflict; the report to the Ministry of Labour on certain points is contrary to the report of the school record, of which the parent has a copy.

Then the parent says, "Look here, Mr. Youth Employment Officer, how do you advise my son on this point? Here is his school record." What is the school record? This is what I am authorised to say, and I hope that in saying it I am also authorising the youth employment officer to say it. He says, "Here is my report." He will read it on that point to the parent. There should be no deliberate attempt to withhold information which the parent ought to have for the purpose of deciding the career that the child ought to follow. I thought I was preparing to fall in with the suggestion of the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). He said, "Let us know what is in it." That is entirely different from what is provided in the Amendment.

The Amendment gives the parent the right to demand a copy of the report. Copies of these reports ought not to be floating about anywhere, and least of all with parents, who may not be as careful about them as they should be. The reports are obtained for a special purpose. An undertaking has been given that the report shall be a confidential document, and I do not want any breach of that undertaking. Any parent wanting to know what is in the report that is relevant to the discussion, will be entitled to ask the youth employment officer to read to him those sections of the report about which he has doubt. The youth employment officer will do that. But to hand a copy of the report to the parent would be quite wrong in the circumstances.

My right hon. Friend said that the Amendment would give the right to the parent to demand the particulars. All that the Amendment says is:

"Provided that all such particulars shall be made available to the parent…"

There is a vast difference between making the particulars available to the parent and the parent demanding them.

I should have thought it meant that if the parent asked for the report, he would get a copy of it. The Amendment says:

"Provided that all such particulars shall be made available to the parent or guardian of any pupils concerned in this section of the Act."

I should have thought that the commonsense reading of that is that there should be made available a copy of the report.

I have been trying to think of an alternative to the Amendment. Supposing it said: "Provided that he may have read to him the gist of the report." Where is there printed in the Bill what the right hon. Gentleman has suggested?

My reading of the Amendment was that it would give the parent the right to say, "I want a copy of the report; I am entitled to take it away with me." We have to take into account not only the parents and the pupil but the headmaster and the youth employment officer. I am not anxious to get reports that will be of no real value. I think there should be an assurance to the headmasters that when they give copies of their reports, those reports will not float around the countryside. They should be able to express their real view without fear of the consequences. [Interruption.] I am trying to protect people against victimisation. There is the other side. The youth employment officer ought to have the most meticulous and accurate report on which to base his advice. Unless he has good information, he cannot give the proper advice which would be in the interests of the child. I have given the assurance that whenever there is a conflict, the youth employment officer will read to the parent that portion of the report dealing with the issue which is in conflict.

When we come to the regulations dealing with this matter, we may perhaps be able to find a form of words to put in the regulations which will confirm this proposition. In those circumstances, I ask the House to reject the Amendment.

Perhaps I may be able to assist the right hon. Gentleman. I believe that in his heart he agrees with us on this side of the House, but that he is rather nervous of some of his educational friends sitting close to him about "going the whole hog." He says that he does not want copies of the report floating around the countryside. No one wants that; they should be confidential to prevent that happening. What my hon. Friends are asking for, and I think that the hon. Member who raised this interesting discussion asked for it also, is that they should be made available to the parent if he requires them. If a parent wants to know what is in the report of the school, he should be allowed to know it by going along to see the youth employment officer and having the report discussed with him.

In actual fact that is what will undoubtedly happen, but I will take the point which the right hon. Gentleman specifically made. The time comes when a young man or girl is to have his or her interview. He or she is there, and, in the normal case, the headmaster is there. The youth employment officer is there and the parent is there. It seems to me that the headmaster knows what is in the report, the youth employment officer knows what is in the report, but the parent is not allowed to see the report, and can only ask for it if the youth employment officer says something which seems to be a little different from what he thought before. I think that is going rather too far.

Surely, we can all agree that in a case of that sort when it comes to the interview, in the privacy and secrecy of that interview the report should be made available to the four people who are discussing what is best for the child. I agree that we do not want these reports floating about and do not want copies made. I am not suggesting that copies should be sent to the parents. I do not think that my hon. Friend is suggesting that they should be. I assume that he means that they should be made available on request. The parent should go to the employment officer or to the headmaster or to this meeting, and when he is there he should be allowed to know what is in the report. If the Minister would go that far, I should be with him. If the Minister said that the report is not to be made available to the parent, should we not in some cases get into the position where the headmaster reads a report on the health or aptitude of the boy which the parent cannot get?

That offends one of the fundamental tenets of the party, which I am proud to represent. We believe that the parents' interest in the boy is second only to the interests of the boy himself. Therefore, I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should agree to the request that in the discussion—or whatever term he may like to call it—this report should be made available to the parents, so that when they come to this vital interview, they are at least as well primed as the headmaster and the youth employment officer when discussing their own children.

With the permission of the House, I should like to make a suggestion. I think it is agreed on both sides that copies of this report ought not to be made. At the moment the feeling of the House is that the information ought to be made known in the discussion. That is a contention which can be supported much more strongly than that contained in the Amendment. I undertake, if the Amendment is withdrawn, to give effect to that view before the Bill goes to another place, or in the regulations; that is, that when the parent is present at the interview, all the information contained in the report shall be divulged to the parent in conversation. With that undertaking, I ask the hon. Member to withdraw the Amendment.

I will withdraw the Amendment, but I must ask for one condition. This ought to be in the Bill, and not done in the regulations. I ask that it should be put in the body of the Bill, because that would be better for the Parliamentary Secretary. I started my remarks earlier by saying that we wanted the good will of the parents: putting this in the body of the Bill will obtain that good will, and make the Bill more workable.

Again with the permission of the House, I would say that it is my intention to put it in the Bill if it can be done in that way. I wanted the escape of doing it in the regulations in case a suitable form of words could not be found. I give the undertaking that before the Bill goes to another place we will consider whether it can be put into the Bill. Failing that, it will be in the regulations.

I think the Debate we have had has been useful, and with the permission of the hon. Member for the Tradeston Division of Glasgow (Mr. Rankin) I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

I very willingly give that permission.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

CLAUSE 19.—(Application to Scotland.)

Amendment made: In page 12, line 13, leave out, "Juvenile," and insert "Youth."—( Mr. Ness Edwards. )

FIRST SCHEDULE.—( National Juvenile Employment Council and Advisory Committees for Scotland and Wales. )

I beg to move, in page 14, line 8, to leave out "thirty-four," and to insert "forty."

This Amendment concerns the membership of the advisory committees, and is designed to ensure the operation of subsequent Amendments, because I want the two "colonial" countries of Scotland and Wales to get a bigger share of representation than they have at present. In order to achieve that bigger representation it is necessary to increase the membership of the committees. In that case, perhaps I might also discuss the following Amendments: In line 28, to leave out "four," and insert "six"; in line 29, to leave out "two," and to insert "three"; and in line 29 to leave out one," and to insert "three."

I think the Minister will agree that Scotland has always been famous throughout the world for the very advanced character of its educational system. There can be no question about that. From the earliest days of organised education Scotland has achieved a very high standard, and I feel that the Minister should be only too anxious to get more Scotsmen on to the Advisory Committee than is at present proposed, which would mean increasing its size. Then, if there are more Scotsmen on the committee, room would have to be made for the more unfortunate people from Wales, with which the Parliamentary Secretary himself is associated. It would be a great advantage for the Welsh people to have more representation, together with more Scottish representation. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary seriously to consider increasing the size of the Advisory Committee so that bigger and better representation may be achieved for Scotland and Wales.

I beg to second the Amendment.

This enables me to argue a point contained in an Amendment which I put down in Standing Committee, but which, owing to the regrettable haste which has shadowed the whole passage of this Bill, I did not press. The aim I then had in mind could be attained through the proposal contained in this Amendment.

While on the National juvenile Employment Council and the Advisory Committees for Scotland and Wales there is direct representation of administrative educational opinion in England and Wales, there is no direct representation of administrative educational opinion in Scotland. The only Scottish bodies represented are the Association of County Councils in Scotland, and the Association of Councils of Counties and Cities in Scotland. But notice the difference so far as England and Wales are concerned, whose administrative educational bodies are directly represented. If this Amendment is accepted both the National and the Advisory Committees would have representatives from the administrative side of educational opinion in Scotland, which at present is being denied. It would also mean that as in many of these education committees in Scotland there are workmen the influence of the latter would be felt in the national bodies.

5.o p.m.

I apprehend, Major Milner, that it is not your intention to call the Amendments standing on the Order Paper in the names of myself and my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury (Mr. Langford-Holt): In page 14, line 8, leave out, "thirty-four," and insert "thirty-five"; and in line 12, at beginning, insert:

This matter was discussed at some length in Standing Committee, and I would like to invite the attention of the House to an astonishing remark made by the Minister of Labour on this subject. In objecting to the inclusion of any representative of the Service Departments the right hon. Gentleman said:

It is important that there should be liaison between those who have to advise on the employment of young persons and the biggest employer of all of young persons. That is fundamental. To allow reasons of prejudice, and especially the sheer prejudice displayed by the hon. Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. G. Thomas), to intrude into this matter is to adopt the policy of the ostrich. I suggest that at least a representative of the Ministry of Defence should be included with the 34 other people who are mentioned in the Schedule. He would be able not to rattle the sabre or the drum, or whatever particular archaic instrument it is which Members sought in Committee to use as a metaphor, but simply to provide that the scheme as a whole should include all the potentially large employers, large users, of the work of young people. To use a phrase of my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler), it would be a two-way traffic of ideas; it would be most valuable. The emotional reasons given in Committee for rejecting this idea do not seem to be very substantial, and I hope that if this attitude is persisted in we shall be given more rational reasons. I am quite unconvinced by the arguments put up so far, and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will appreciate that there is in this matter perhaps a little more importance than the compulsory and statutory inclusion of Scotsmen.

Why relate this only to Scotland and Wales? What is wrong with having similar representation for England?

I do not think the hon. Member fully apprehended the purpose of my speech. I was against all these separate electorates on a communal basis, which Members opposite seem to favour. I was concerned with the exclusion of the Service Departments.

I am rather surprised at the Amendment, and still more surprised at the subsequent discussion on the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Shrewsbury (Mr. Langford-Holt), which was not called. I would ask the hon. Member for West Fife to correct his arithmetic. He proposes to increase the number of the National Council to 40, but provides for only 39 places. Perhaps, however, he was anticipating the desires of Members opposite to have a representative of the Ministry of Defence. I should have thought that the machinery envisaged in the Schedule was most democratic, because it gives to Scotland, and to Wales as well, a separate Advisory Council. The chairmen and members of those two councils automatically sit on the National Council. I should have thought that that was a very good way of dealing with the differences in the Principality and in Scotland in the educational world. As for a representative of workmen, it is provided in the Schedule that they shall have seven representatives on the Council, which would appear to be a little more generous than was anticipated by the hon. Member for West Fife.

On the question of a representative of the Ministry of Defence, we feel that the Council is not a body which is based upon functional representation. If any particular Ministry or interest is to be accorded representation it will give rise to all sorts of demands for other bodies to be represented. The Council as now devised appears to cover everybody. There may be among its members many ex-Service officers, who will keep the needs and interests of the Services in mind. If we say that the Ministry of Defence must have a representative, how much more important is it that the Ministry of Supply, with its control of scientific development, should have a representative. We could go on from one Department and one society to another until, instead of having a working Council, we should have a great conference which would decide nothing and get us nowhere. That is the only reason for rejecting the plea of Members opposite for specific representation for the Ministry of Defence. As I have said, I think the machinery in the Schedule completely meets the point of view of the hon. Member for West Fife, and I hope that in the circumstances he will withdraw the Amendment.

I am glad that the Parliamentary Secretary has not agreed with the view put forward by the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher). The hon. Member can always be depended upon in this House to defend the interests of Scotland, and I would commend him to his constituents for that reason. I came into the Chamber without any intention of speaking on this Amendment, but on looking at the Schedule I find that Scot- land is mentioned quite a number of times, and while I believe that the hon. Member for West Fife would say that two Scotsmen are equal to three Englishmen, he has no reason to complain that the committee is limited to the number which appears in the Schedule. Therefore, I cannot see that he has any good reason to claim extra representation on the National Council. Surely it is not necessary to remind the hon. Member for West Fife that there is a Council for Scotland, and we are now considering the Schedule which deals with the National Council and the Advisory Committees for Scotland and Wales. The hon. Gentleman should be aware that the London County Council is mentioned only once. As an Englishman, and a Londoner at that, I might claim that the London County Council is entitled to the fullest possible representation on any national body concerned with education.

The hon. Member for West Fife made a plea for the representation of Scotland as being a great educational centre. I do not wish to deny that, but if he is comparing Scotland with London in matters of education I am bound to say that we are entitled to regard London as the equal of Scotland.

My whole point in opposing this Amendment is not only that Scotland is adequately represented on the National Council and that Scottish workmen are also included, but that I dislike too many Scotsmen on national committees for this reason: Scotsmen have always had a great affection for living in London, and when we appoint committees of assumed Englishmen it frequently happens that about 5o per cent. of them were originally Scotsmen. That, of course, is to. the credit of those men who have deserted their country and have found a home in London, but at the same time it provides an argument against accepting this Amendment.

I can appreciate that the Parliamentary Secretary does not want the Council to be too large, and I also appreciate his argument that if a fresh interest is suggested, another one is likely to follow, and so on. However, I had hoped to see something a little more imaginative in this Schedule. I am getting tired of this constant repetition of employers and workers. The whole industry of this country is changing very rapidly, and today there is a vast army of scientists, technicians, executives and management who have nothing to do with employers and who cannot be designated as workmen. The right hon. Gentleman is well aware of that. He himself referred to the Ministry of Supply in this respect. There is a large number of such people engaged in vital and important undertakings of a scientific character in connection with the Ministry of Supply. If representation is confined merely to employers and workmen it may preclude a number of very important men, many of them quite young, engaged in scientific research, who would be most invaluable on a council of this kind.

I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman may say that he has power to co-opt individual persons, and I hope that such persons and associations such as management associations will not be forgotten. When we produce future Bills of this kind I hope that we shall not confine the composition of such a body to workmen and employers, but that we shall take into consideration this vital and new capacity which exists in industry today.

5.15 p.m.

I hope the Minister will accept this Amendment. The hon. Member for South-East Southwark (Mr. Naylor) has rather missed the point of the Amendment. Its purpose is not, as he sought to suggest in his amusing speech at the expense of Scotsmen, to create any antithesis between Englishmen, Scotsmen and Welshmen, but to improve the balance in these already rather well-balanced Council and committees.

In Part I of the Schedule, under the heading "Constitution of Council and Committees," one sees set out the constitution and membership of the Council. It is very well balanced except in one respect, and it is ii that respect that the Amendment seeks to improve it. There is an unbalance as regards the workmen, and the object of the Amendment is to increase the total size of the body to 39—not 4o as is stated in the Amendment—for the purpose ultimately of including under paragraph ( e ) six persons as representing the workmen in England, three as representing the workmen in Scotland, and three as representing the workmen in Wales, instead of the numbers that appear in the Schedule. This seems to me to be a perfectly fair and reasonable Amendment, and I hope the Minister will accept it.

I appreciate the Parliamentary Secretary's desire not to increase the membership of the Council, but if he cannot accept the Amendment would he consider the following suggestion? The Amendment moved by the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) proposes an increased representation to Wales over and above that of Scotland, but I, as a Welshman, would be satisfied if the Minister were to indicate that one of the two people to be appointed under paragraph ( f ) as representing juvenile employment committee, should come from the Principality.

I am glad that the hon. and learned Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Hector Hughes) made a further appeal to the Minister to reconsider this Amendment. I should have thought that if the hon. and learned Gentleman had been listening to the speech of the Minister with the attention which one would have expected from a Member who takes a great interest in Scottish affairs, it would have been quite clear to him that the right hon. Gentleman not merely refused to accept the wording of the Amendment but that he was disinclined to agree even with the spirit which underlies the whole idea of this Amendment.

It is very seldom indeed that I agree with the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) in anything that he says or does in this House, and that is all the more reason why I have pleasure in saying one or two words in support of this Amendment. I was very sorry to hear the hon. Member for South-East Southwark (Mr. Naylor) speaking about Scotland, England and Wales in the way that he did, and I hope that on reflection he will withdraw his remarks. Apart from that, however, I have great sympathy even with what was said by the hon. Member for West Fife and the hon. Member for Tradeston (Mr. Rankin). I do not expect that the Minister will incorporate the Amendment into the Bill but I hope that on reflection he will see there is a great deal to be said for its spirit. I hope that in administering the Bill he will keep in mind the words of warning from both sides of the House on this important matter about Scotland and Wales.

I will not go further into the rival aspects raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). I was in agreement with what he said but, in discussing the Amendment of the hon. Member for West Fife I do not think it would be in order for me to go into the questions of the representation of the Ministry of Defence and other Government Departments. I very much regretted to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames say, particularly concerning Scotland, that he was not much concerned with the spirit of the Amendment because Scotsmen, as far as education and some other matters are concerned, were able to force their way. Unless the wording or the spirit of the Amendment is accepted it will be impossible, even with all the force and energy we may possess, to force ourselves in. I realise better than the hon. and learned Member for North Aberdeen the ruthless way in which the Parliamentary Secretary has rejected this Amendment, but I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to keep in mind the words of warning which have been spoken. Even if he thinks nothing of what has been said on this side of the House, he would do well to remember the words of hon. Members on the benches behind him in support of the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment made: In page 14, line 31, leave out "Juvenile," and insert Youth."—[ Mr. Ness Edwards. ]

Consequential Amendments made.

TITLE.

Amendment made: In line 4, leave out "juvenile," and insert "youth."—[ Mr. Ness Edwards. ]

5.24 p.m.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

I wish to express my gratitude for the excellent work of the Committee which has dealt with the Bill. The Measure, in its final form, is very much improved. I would express also the gratitude of my right hon. Friend the Minister and myself to hon. Members on both sides of the House for their help. We are now putting on a proper basis, the training of both employed and unemployed workpeople of this country. We have made the training centres a permanent feature of our economy. The Bill also provides for training within industry and a system of apprenticeship. In that way we shall increase the skill, and strive for a greater mobility, of our workpeople. A great job of work is being done, especially with the training of disabled persons. All that is provided for in the first part of the Bill.

The second part launches on its career the Youth Employment Service. I hope that this will be a very great advantage to the young people of this country in providing methods of getting into industry. I hope they will find the right jobs; that their aptitudes will be given the greatest opportunities; and that, in this method of selection and advice, we shall get in this country happier and more highly skilled workpeople as well as better production.

5.26 p.m.

I would not like to let this Bill go through without a word from this side of the House. We welcomed this important Measure on Second Reading and we endeavoured to facilitate its passage through a singularly harmonious Committee stage. I think it was improved by the work of all sides, and I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his recognition of the part played by us on this side of the House. I would ask him, in return, whether he would point out this moral to his Chief Whip. When the Government bring forward good Measures, we on this side will facilitate their passage through Committee. It is only when they bring forward bad Measures, such as the Gas Nationalisation Bill, that they run into trouble.

As the Parliamentary Secretary has said, the Bill deals first of all with training in its widest aspects. It includes the training and placing of foreign workers introduced into this country. The second part of the Bill deals with the vitally important Youth Advisory Service. I think that all of us in the House would like to have reports from time to time of the progress being made in both these directions. One report could explain the progress in training, and I should like to see an annual report, at any rate during the early stages, as to the progress in covering the whole country with the youth advisory services, and the results. Such information would be valuable to the House; we should be able to turn our minds once a year to problems of this sort. In addition, it would be an encouragement to those working the scheme.

I am sure that all of us recognise with gratitude the value of the work being done by those who are wilting to serve on the youth advisory committees. That is a public service well done. We should also send out a word of encouragement to those most important people, the youth employment officers. I mentioned them on Second Reading and make no apology for referring to them again. They have our very best wishes. Indeed, we on this side of the House wish the Ministry all success in operating this Measure.

5.29 p.m.

I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the patience and skill with which he has guided this Bill through Committee and the House. I hope it will provide a new start in voluntary guidance for British youth. I should like to say a word on the first part of the Bill. We are inaugurating a movement to bring, perhaps, 100,000 workers—Balts and other gallant people—into this country under various schemes. I am hopeful that it will be something more than the "Blue Danube "and" Westward Ho "schemes—that it will be something like a Huguenot movement into this country. However many people emigrate, new blood will be coming into this country, and if these people are looked after and made part of the life of this land, I believe they will be of permanent value to us as a people, who are, after all, made up of many strains.

As regards training, it seems that we are putting into statutory form something which the war and pre-war experience have proved can be done by the Ministry of Labour. The Youth Employment Service is a grand new service. Hitherto most people took no advantage of such a scheme. There were the skilled employment bureaux for children of a higher level, but then we came down to the unskilled children who had nobody to look after them. I hope that this service will be used by all secondary schools in future. If that is to be the case, the service must be staffed and managed by the very best possible people.

I have nothing but praise for those who give up their time to voluntary work, and there is no better voluntary service than work on these committees. I remember how the present Chief Scout, who is chairman of the Employment Committee, learned a lot about boys from his experience in Kilmarnock. Very close relationship is necessary between the schools, and there is need for much more careful classification of jobs. A much greater interest in youth workers is needed by the trade unions. I am extremely sorry that an Amendment which I and my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Corlett) still think ought to be incorporated in the Bill, was not called.

In conclusion, I plead with the local education authorities to put in their schemes within the next six months. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education will do all in his power to bring local education authorities up to the standard of Birmingham, which has had the greatest experience in this work for the past 20 years. If only we can get the other authorities to do the same thing, this Bill will be a milestone for the youth of the country not only in name but in purpose.

5.33 p.m.

I rise to stress the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) about the importance of Clause 5, and the fact that this Bill provides the machinery by which a large number of foreign workers are being introduced into this country. The Parliamentary Secretary referred in Committee to the introduction of 100,000 workers this year. During the Committee stage he expressed surprise that this matter of very considerable interest to the nation, which also introduces a new and important policy, did not have a larger discussion. I should like to throw that back at him, because he made no reference to it in his Second Reading speech; neither did he in his Third Reading speech. As the House knows, this Bill has been rushed through very quickly. It started off on a Friday morning and we have had to gallop through it.

The whole question of Government policy in regard to importing foreign workers should have been discussed on this Bill, because it provides the right Parliamentary occasion for such a discussion. But that opportunity has been missed. We do not know what the Government's policy is in regard to foreign workers, how many they intend to introduce into this country, whether they are eventually to be sent back to their homes which may not exist and, if not, how they are to be absorbed into the population of this country. These are all matters of considerable importance. All I can do is to point out that the Bill still has not been through all its stages and I hope that these words of mine may be read elsewhere and that the opportunity which has been missed in this House may be taken in another place

5.36 p.m.

I am sorry that in this rather soothing atmosphere of mutual congratulations I should have to strike a somewhat discordant note, but I am not prepared to let this Bill pass without calling attention to what I consider to be an extremely grave blemish. As the Parliamentary Secretary knows, it is in regard to the second part of the Bill and has reference to the recommendations of the Ince Committee. That was an influential Committee set up to advise on these matters, and the most important and central recommendation they made has been omitted and entirely ignored. I endeavoured to put this matter right in Committee.

The hon. Member is now dealing with what is not in the Bill. At this stage he can deal only with what is in the Bill.

I thought that if one were to deal with the Bill as a whole, it would be possible to call attention to a blemish.

I am sorry, but the hon. Member is entitled to deal only with what is in the Bill. He cannot deal with what might have been in the Bill in other circumstances.

My intention was to call attention to the fact that the Bill is entirely out of perspective because of certain things which have been put in and certain important features which have been left out. If I am not allowed to do that, I must bow to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and merely say that the Bill has an important blemish and express the hope that someone in another place will take an opportunity to put right what is now radically wrong.

5.39 p.m.

We on this side have endeavoured to assist the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary to get this Bill through all its stages, but it would be wrong for us to let it pass without voicing some protest in regard to the small amount of time which has been allowed for discussion. We had only one and a half hours discussion on Second Reading, and during that discussion there was an air of suspense that if the Bill did not get its Second Reading in a certain time there would be no Bill at all. That is quite a wrong atmosphere in which to discuss a Bill of this magnitude which affects every boy and girl in the country, and will do so for generations to come until it is superseded. I wish to put that protest on record. The right hon. Gentleman drew attention during the Committee stage to the fact that under Clause 5, through the "Westward Ho" and "Blue Danube" schemes, foreign workers were being brought into this country. He dealt with the whole matter very briefly and talked about 50o Austrian girls. He left the whole thing in the air. I would have thought that he would have enlarged on that subject in his speech.

The hon. Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. G. Thomas) raised in Committee the question of conscientious objection by a man travelling from one job to another. The Minister pointed out in reply that if a man is going to a job he must know before he gets there whether he is going to approve of it or have a conscientious objection. I can conceive of a case where a man is going to a job in a chemical factory. He may have no conscientious objection to working in a chemical factory, but when he gets there he may find that he is to be engaged in making poisonous gas. It is a hypothetical case but there is that possibility, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will bear conscientious objection in mind. It applies in regard to the Armed Forces and it should be taken into consideration in this Bill.

In Committee, and also today, the right hon. Gentleman dwelt rather heavily on this question of regulation. Every time he gets into a corner or is not quite sure what he is going to do, he says the matter is to be dealt with by regulation. I am one of those people who believe that the proper place for legislation is the House of Commons. There is far too much of this action through regulation, and I was very glad that one hon. Member pushed the Minister so far as to get out of him that he would, if it was at all possible, bring the question which the hon. Member raised into the Bill, rather than deal with it by regulation. I hope that attitude will not stop with the Minister of Labour, but will permeate the minds of other Ministers on the Front Bench.

For quite a long period this afternoon we dealt with the question of the responsibility of the parent. There are certain tendencies in this matter which can be seen in the Bill and on the part of the right hon. Gentleman and of hon. Gentlemen opposite. We on this side of the House particularly picked out this question of the responsibility of the parent, because we believe firmly in it. I hope the Minister will not assume that 90 per cent. of the parents are potentially bad parents, but will assume that 90 per cent. are good and ten per cent. potentially bad. It is no good legislating in the Bill or otherwise, so that the 90 per cent. should conform to what the ten per cent. are to do. Rather the ten per cent. should conform to what the 90 per cent. are to do. However, this question of parental responsibility has been settled satisfactorily, particularly to this side of the House, and I hope the Minister will keep his promise, in so far as he can, that this will be included in the Bill and will not be done by regulation.

The Hon. Member for Central Cardiff whom I have already mentioned in connection with conscientious objection, also made a rather stupid remark. I am sorry he is not here, but I am still going to say what I intended. I think his words were, "How the party opposite love the Army, the Navy and the Air Force"—

That question clearly has been decided, and in any event it is not a matter which arises on the Third Reading.

I bow to your Ruling, Sir. What I was going to bring out is that we on this side of the House still feel that the hon. Gentleman was wrong to introduce, as he did, the only element of party politics in the whole proceedings on this Bill throughout its various stages. I will leave that question.

One thing that the Minister said—I am not quoting exactly what he said, but giving the substance of his remark—was that he wanted every boy and girl in this country to have the opportunity of going to the town and making good. Once again, I should like to make perfectly clear to the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite that there is no question of the town being better than the country or the country being better than the town. Both are absolutely essential to the well-being of this community, and the sooner hon. Gentlemen opposite—I do not say this in any offensive way—get it into their heads that that is the position, the better it will be. On this side of the House we represent, for the greater part, agricultural constituencies, and I was rather surprised that hon. Members opposite who represent agricultural constituencies did not take the Minister up on that point. The agricultural industry is vital to this country, and nothing should be done to damage it.

On the question of the interest of the parents, I wish the Minister would always remember that whatever legislation he intends to produce, it should be through this House. Lastly, I should like to congratulate the Minister, as I have done before, on the way in which he has piloted this Bill with considerable patience through the House and the Committee. Hon. Members on this side of the House wish it well in its future operation.

5.47 p.m.

Before the Bill passes to another place, I should like to have clarification of one matter which I raised in Committee and which was not completely dealt with. My right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate is here and he may be able to clear up the point. Clause 19, (5), says: Lord Advocate. I want to be quite clear on this issue. It may not be necessary expressly to put it into the Bill, and if it is not necessary, why is that the case?

I want to join in the general welcome which has been given to the Measure. While I agree that there has been haste, we should recollect that we are fortified by the fact that this Bill is founded on 'the Ince Committee report which was practically unanimous. With the exception of Clause 44, this Bill is that report in legislative form. I should like to emphasise the magnitude of the job which lies in front of my right hon. Friend. Something like 400,000 boys and girls will be leaving school every year, and we want to see every one of them coming under the voluntary guidance offered by this Bill. It is important that they should get a job, but it is more important that they should get the right job, because the disturbance caused by a girl or boy being placed in the wrong job in early years leads to many frustrations and social discontent in later life.

In Part II of the Bill one of the chief functions, if not the chief function, of my right hon. Friend is to marry the knowledge of the pupil which school gives to knowledge of industry, commerce and the professions. If he does that, he will require to work in close contact and harmony with education authorities. I am certain that he will do so, as he has the necessary ability and temperament.

May I conclude with this point? The Bill is something new to Scotland. The Minister will require to proceed with a good deal of consideration in getting Scottish authorities to co-operate. I welcome the Bill, and confer upon it my blessing, for whatever that may be worth.

5.51 p.m.

It is important that a Bill of this kind should be able to attract public support in its working. One of the things about this Bill which will have that effect is the absence of undue centralisation. I welcome the fact that Wales and Scotland will have their own advisory committees. I cannot speak for Wales, but I know that the people of Scotland will welcome the fact that they will have their own youth advisory committees. Scotland has her own historical traditions, background, economic problems and opportunities, and national aptitudes. It is right that Scottish people should be members of those committees to advise the Minister and assist to solve the difficult questions which are involved. To that extent, they will have a measure of home rule.

Clause 3 will be particularly useful to Scotland. at will enable persons about to undergo training to have residential accommodation and other facilities. In Scotland, perhaps more than in England and Wales, there are people who live in remote places, and they would be excluded from the advantages which the Bill confers, were it not for Clause 3. When people from the Highlands and Islands avail themselves of the Bill, Clause 3 will enable them to receive payments for maintenance, travelling expenses and residential accommodation, as well as facilities for recreation and for services incidental to the purposes of the courses. Those are wise provisions. I hope the Bill will be widely, liberally and generously administered, particularly regarding Clause 3.

I would say many other things about the Bill, but it has been received with such a chorus of commendation, and time is so short, that I forbear saying anything more about the Bill than "Bless you, my child."

5.54 p.m.

Despite the impatience shown by my hon. Friends, I cannot allow the Bill to receive its Third Reading without giving it my blessing, especially after the pleasant speech addressed to the Parliamentary Secretary by the right hon. Member for Epsom (Mr. McCorquodale). The right hon. Gentleman declared that the Opposition were always prepared to support a good Bill and never opposed except when a proposal was bad. Whether we can take that declaration as absolutely right, I leave the House to decide. The right hon. Member for Epsom and I have spent many hours together considering training schemes of one kind or another.

The Bill will make it much easier in future for trade unions and employers' organisations to act together in the interests of a large number of young men and women who, without the Bill, would have had no opportunity of learning what we commonly refer to as a skilled occupation. I dub all occupations matters of skill. There is no such person in the industrial world as an unskilled worker. Even the simplest operation can be performed in more ways than one. The extent of the difference between those ways, the time taken, and the quality of the operation, show the degree of skill required.

When the Bill is passed and placed upon the Statute Book, I hope that the Ministry of Labour will give it the utmost possible publicity. A great deal of benefit of this kind is lost because a large number of the people affected know nothing about it. It is surprising—I dare say this is the experience of other Members, too, when dealing with their constituents—to find how Measures designed for people's benefit do not come to their knowledge. I hope that every possible form of publicity will be given to the Bill so that we can get all benefit possible out of it for the working people of this country.

Question, "That the Bill be read the Third time," put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to, some with Special Entries.

National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Bill

Considered in Committee; reported without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

Planning Development Charge (Regulations)

6.0 p.m.

I beg to move:

"That the Town and Country Planning (Development Charge) Regulations, 1948, dated 23rd April, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 29th April, be approved."

On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. There are four Motions on the Paper. May I ask which Motion we are now discussing, whether it is the first Motion only or also the other three—one dealing with Development Charge exemptions, and the other two with similar regulations for Scotland.

Perhaps it would be to the advantage of the House and the Debate if we discussed all four regulations together. If the Minister will move the first one, we can have a general Debate.

I respectfully suggest that the time taken on the discussions would be much shorter if we could discuss the orders separately. The first order deals with quite different points from the second order. If we discuss them all together, the Debate will be pretty ragged and the speeches will have to be much longer in order to cover a wider field.

In this matter I am a servant of the House and I desire to do what the House wishes. If it is desired to discuss each regulation separately, that procedure can be adopted.

Notwithstanding that decision, perhaps it would be convenient if at this moment I took a preliminary point. Although it does not affect the first regulation, it affects the second and the fourth—

If we are to take the orders separately, it would be more convenient to deal with that specific point when the second and fourth regulations are being debated.

As there are two sets of regulations, I suggest that each set might be taken separately. There is no point in having a separate discussion on a regulation for Scotland and a regulation for England which carry out exactly the same purpose under both Acts. If there is to be any separation, the only separation which is justifiable is the separation of the regulations which deal with general principles from the regulations which deal with exemptions. There is no point in having two Debates on what is essentially the same point, and therefore I suggest that we limit the discussion in the first instance, if that is desired, to the regulations dealing with the general principles and in the second instance to the regulations dealing with the exemptions.

It is rather novel to hear the right hon. Gentleman saying that the case for Scotland is identical with the case for England. I should have thought that it would have been much more convenient to take the first order as it stands on the Order Paper. Scottish hon. Members might have quite different points to raise in relation to the orders applying to Scotland. I do not know anything about how those orders would affect Scotland. I have not concerned myself with that. It would be much easier to deal with the orders separately as on the Order Paper.

The orders are in substantially identical terms and, clearly, the principles embodied in the orders apply to the whole country, although they are made under different Acts. Therefore, the principles to be discussed are entirely similar. For the convenience of the House, we ought not to have four Debates instead of what could be one Debate. While I agree that it might be possible for there to be Debates on the principles and on the exemptions, I certainly could not agree that there ought to be four Debates, which would simply mean duplication and multiplication of the arguments. If I am in Order I would suggest, to meet the hon. and learned Gentleman, that we divide the Debate into two sections and first have a Debate on the general principles and, secondly, a debate on the exemptions.

Surely it is not for the right hon. Gentleman to say to what he will or will not agree.

Surely, in the absence of agreement by the House, we proceed to take these orders separately. I must say that I think it would be much more convenient to the House to take them separately. It may well be that when we come to the Scottish orders no one will want to raise any different points, but it would be very much more convenient to deal with the first order as it applies to England, and confine our remarks to England.

I have as far as possible to interpret the wish of the House. It is so expressed that the orders should be taken separately as on the Order Paper. I therefore decide now that we shall take these orders separately.

I have the honour to ask the House to approve the first regulation on the Order Paper, which deals with the general principles applying to the charging of the development charge under the Town and Country Planning Regulations—

On a point of Order. Would it be in Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to inquire why the Minister of Town and Country Planning, who has made this order, is not himself in the House?

The Government have made the order, of course. The Government are one and indivisible in the House of Commons, and a Minister of the Government is moving the order.

No doubt the right hon. Gentleman is technically right, but might we have an explanation why the Minister of Town and Country Planning is not moving an order which he has handled and the whole of which has been dealt with by his Department? Is he ill?

I have no doubt that the reason why the Minister of Town and Country Planning is not at the moment here is the alacrity with which the House of Commons has so far discharged its Business. I have no doubt that in due course the Minister will be coming along. Indeed, he proposes to reply to the discussion when the discussion takes place.

On a point of Order. Before the Minister proceeds to deal with the first regulation, would it be in Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to ask for some explanation from the Opposition why they have objected to the Secretary of State for Scotland taking this matter when they themselves have not a single Scottish Member of Parliament on their Benches—

The hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) said that he was not interested in Scotland.

We are getting right away from the order under discussion. I suggest that we get on with the Business.

The Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, deals with the transfer of the development values in land from private ownership to the State, and in order to facilitate this progress, the State has set aside £300 million which will provide payments to those who can establish a claim to have lost value in this development. Under the Act it is the duty of the Central Land Board to secure future increments in value resulting from planning permissions. Under the Act the Central Land Board is required to have regard to the amount by which the value of the land with the benefit of planning permission exceeds the value without it. Secondly, they must not give any undue or unreasonable preference or advantage to one applicant over another. The Act also says that, subject to this, regulations may be made, with the consent of the Treasury, prescribing general principles to be followed by the Board in determining if any, and if so what, development charge is to be paid in respect of any operations or use of land. This is the purpose of the development charge regulations which are now laid before the House.

The general principles are set out in the schedules, and are based on the assumption that the Board must charge the full amount of Zoo per cent. of the increase in value attributable to a planning permission. The first paragraph in the Schedule says that the

Why did not the Government do that before they introduced the legislation?

The Central Land Board is appointed to carry out the general working of the Act of which the principles have been laid down in the statute. Clearly the Government have not examined the hundreds of thousands of claims which are to be made, and could not do that. In the circumstances, the observation of the hon. Member has no meaning at all.

To what claims is the right hon. Gentleman referring? This order does not seem to make reference to claims.

I think the hon. Gentleman must not have listened to what I have said, for the Act authorises the payment of claims out of a sum of £300 million to people who can establish claims to have lost development value. Therefore there is something about claims and I am sorry the hon. Gentleman did not understand that.

I suggest that there is nothing in this order dealing with claims against the £300 million. This order deals with the basis on which development charge is to be levied.

I quite agree, but this order is based on the Act of Parliament which provides for the payment of claims out of the £300 million. Of course, if hon. Members want to waste time it is an easy matter to interject at every comma, but we want to deal with these matters in a sensible way without frivolous interruptions. When the Measure went through the House of Commons it was anticipated that these rules would be formulated in considerable detail, but as the Central Land Board approached the problem it became clear that, as far as formulated principles were concerned, it would be much more advantageous from every point of view to formulate a general principle which might be applied in the most flexible way possible in dealing with the multitude of variations which are bound to arise in these claims.

Therefore in framing these regulations we have laid down that a development charge will be 100 per cent. of the increased value and that that shall be in nearly all cases an invariable fixed basis on which the charge shall be made. Nevertheless, it is recognised that there might be some exceptional cases, which so far we have not been able to foresee, where some discretion must be left to the Board. and paragraph 4 of the schedule gives that discretion to the Board. Of course, there will be tremendous variation in the valuations because the valuations will depend entirely on the circumstances, which will vary from case to case. But, as these valuations will be made by people who are skilled in valuations, we can depend upon it that the general comparison between one case and another will be fair and will carry out the principles laid down in the Act itself. There must be no undue discrimination as between one person and another.

The right hon. Gentleman said he was referring to paragraph 4, and I think he is referring to paragraph 3. Is it not paragraph 3 which provides for flexibility?

I think that is right; it is paragraph 3 which gives flexibility. There will be ample variation in the valuations and the circumstances of these valuations will vary from time to time and from place to place, because clearly a change of conditions even during the period of these valuations may entirely change the valuations from a development point of view or a use point of view. The main point about these general regulations is that it is desired to maintain the maximum flexibility in the application of these principles to the cases which come before the Board. We have been advised by the Central Land Board that this is advisable from the point of view of the difficulty there might be in laying down precise rules.

In due course the Board will build up a great deal of experience as these cases are examined, as valuations take place, and as claims are made. It may be that in due course the Board will be able to see clearly a body of regulations inside the principles we are now laying down and inside which the Board will work. These principles are simple and clear. They provide great flexibility for the Central Land Board to carry out their duties, because we wish to provide them with the machinery for acting fairly as between one person and another and as between the State and the private person. It is with that purpose in view that I had pleasure in moving the Motion for approval of these regulations.

The right hon. Gentleman said in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson) that when he said paragraph 4, he meant paragraph 3. If that is correct, he has not dealt with paragraph 4; does he not intend to do so?

Paragraph 4 gives a further flexibility to the Board. As I said, in paragraph 3 there is a provision for cases which so far we have not been able to foresee but for which it is desirable to provide where fairness cannot be done by the 100 per cent. valuation charge. Paragraph 3 gives a discretion to the Board in that respect.

6.22 p.m.

This is the first order of great importance and of general application throughout England which has been made under the Town and Country Planning Act, and it is unfortunate that we did not hear the Minister of Town and Country Planning, who conducted the Act under which this order is made, through the House, explaining the provisions. The Secretary of State for Scotland seemed to me to have a very hazy idea of what this order does in England. It may well be that he would feel on more comfortable ground if he confined his observations to the order applying to Scotland. In that connection, I would say, in view of an interruption made by the hon. Member for Rutherglen (Mr. McAllister), that I did not say that I took no interest in Scotland; I claimed merely that I had no qualification to speak on behalf of Scotland.

So far as this order is concerned, I can congratulate the Minister upon one thing and upon one thing only, and that is that in it an attempt has been made to lay down general principles, not, as the Section in the Act provides, different principles in relation to operations and uses of different classes. I think that idea of one general principle applying throughout the country is preferable to what was intended originally, but I cannot congratulate him upon the general principles laid down. In my view their meaning is obscure 'and, so far as their intention is perceptible, it is unrealisable and, as I shall endeavour to show, the schedule is in itself contradictory. As this is an important order, having no relation at all—in spite of what the Secretary of State said—to the £300 million fund or to claims made against that fund, I want to make a few observations upon each one of the paragraphs in the schedule because they lay down the principles to be applied in determining not what individuals living in the country shall receive out of the £300 million fund, or any other fund, but to determine what they will have to pay if they propose to make any development.

The preliminary remarks I made referred to the Act of Parliament, within the framework of which this order is made. I made no statement that this order had any relation to the £300 million fund, but that is included in the Act of Parliament and this has a close connection with it. If any of the hon. and learned Member's non. Friends do not want to call on the £300 million, even when they are affected by this order, we shall be delighted.

The right hon. Gentleman seems to forget that not only did he refer to the £300 million fund in his introductory remarks, but repeatedly referred to claims being made and said that the Government had not had an opportunity of considering the various classes of claims, meaning claims against the £300 million fund, because they would not be claims to pay a development charge. His observations throughout seemed to suffer from confusion as to what this order is intended to do, though I appreciate that he may not have had much opportunity of considering its full implication. The first paragraph of the schedule purports to lay down a genera] governing principle, and is worthy of careful consideration. It says:

The second paragraph lays down the ceiling of 100 per cent. which is to be measured by the normal processes of valuation. I wish the right hon. Gentleman had given us some explanation of how that alleged normal process of valuation was to operate. What exactly does it mean, bearing in mind that this development charge has to be assessed before the development takes place, and must therefore be assessed on plans and estimates? We all know how very wide of the actual mark an estimate may be in these days. First of all, is the existing use value to be assessed in this normal process of valuation? Then, is the estimated cost of development to be added to that? [Interruption.] I am asking questions, and I would rather have answers from the Minister, as I think that his answers will perhaps be more informative.

Have three items to be totalled and deducted from a fourth, and will the difference be the development charge under the normal process of valuation? The three items are existing use value, the estimated cost of development and then something for the developer's profit. Do those three items have to be totalled and then deducted from the development value, assessed by capitalising the assumed rental for a term of years? Is that how this normal process of valuation is to be operated? If so, it is important to know on what basis the developer's profit is to be allowed. Is it to be a flat rate or is it to be varied, and what relation will it have to reality? If no profit is to be allowed to the developer, and if all the effect of development is to pass over to the Central Land Board in the development charge, then again there is no incentive given to development and the operation of these Regulations will be to discourage it still further.

I turn to the third paragraph, which in my view conflicts in a material respect with the first paragraph. The third paragraph says that the

I do not know if I have made the point clear—[HON. MEMBERS: No."] I will try again; the matter is a little involved. A conflict appears to be involved between paragraphs 3 and 1 of the schedule, if under paragraph r existing use value is to be taken as the governing principle, neither more or less, and then it is said under paragraph 3 that the development charge must not be less than ma per cent.

I suggest that there is a real conflict between paragraphs I and 3 of the schedule. Perhaps if the Minister had moved the Motion we should have heard him explain this point. I am sorry that I have not followed him instead of having to precede him. When one comes to paragraph 4 one sees that the whole burden in relation to the classes specified in Part VIII of the Act is handed over to the Central Land Board. They are given full discretion. The Secretary of State many times referred to flexibility. He also referred to the 100 per cent. being not variable. When one looks at paragraph 4 one sees that complete unfettered discretion is given to the Central Land Board, with no guidance given by this House as to how different principles should be applied to the different classes. When one bears in mind the wide variety of classes dealt with by Part VIII it is most regrettable that this House should not have had an opportunity of considering of what principles should be applied and are to be applied to those particular classes—for instance, the property of the National Coal Board, land held on charitable trust, Crown land, requisition land, land ripe for development before the appointed day, unfinished buildings and existing development land contravening previous planning controls. Not a word has been said by the Secretary of State as to what principles will be applied to these.

The right hon. Gentleman was asked by my hon. and learned Friend to make some observations about paragraph 4 and he did so at the conclusion of his speech, but I cannot congratulate him on having thrown any more light upon that particular branch of these regulations by his observations. So far as the contents of these regulations are concerned, I can see no adequate reason for not having put this schedule in the Bill in the first place. Then we should have had an opportunity to consider it, in detail, subject to the Guillotine which operated so severely, and maybe to make improvements in it by Amendments. Now, in my view, a view confirmed by everything which the Secretary of State said, these regulations can only be described as vague, contradictory and uncertain in their effect, certain only in that they will discourage development of industry and of our land and that they will discourage building, including the building of dwelling houses. In the circumstances, and having regard to what the Secretary of State has said, we on this side of the House will, in the absence of an adequate explanation, show our discontent with these regulations.

6.38 p.m.

I think that the House has seldom listened to a more condescending, patronising performance than that we have just had from the hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller). He might cast his eyes around and look at his side of the House and at this side. If he looks at this side of the House he will see quite a good representation of the Parliamentary Labour Party. He will see people drawn from local government, from every profession, from every section of the community, people who have been passionately, and deeply interested in the land of Great Britain for a long time, and people who for a long time have felt that the land of Britain ought somehow to be within the control, if not within the ownership, of the people of Britain.

If the hon. and learned Gentleman casts his glance around his own side of the House he will see a very small representation of His Majesty's Opposition. He will see that of the small handful of the people on his own side of the House who apparently take a great interest in this matter the great majority are lawyers with some rather specific interests in the regulations, that those who are not lawyers are landlords; some of them are landlords and lawyers also, and when they are not landlords and lawyers they are surveyors. I do not think I can let the hon. and learned Gentleman get away with the statement that he did not say in his protest about the procedure to be adopted in discussing the regulations that he was not interested in Scotland, because that was precisely what he did say and the columns of HANSARD will bear me out tomorrow. I think it is a matter for congratulation for Scotland that he is not interested, but it is still surprising from the opener on behalf of the Conservative Party

When he got down to the schedule he first of all named the Secretary of State for Scotland, and, in a condescending, legalistic way, said that the Secretary of State for Scotland was confusing claims which naturally arise from the Act of Parliament from which this order sprang with the question of how the development charge will be made under and the regulations we are now considering. If the speech of the Secretary of State for Scotland was not entirely unambiguous, and was not entirely a model of clarity, the speech made by the hon. and learned Gentleman was just about as confused and muddleheaded as I have heard, even from one of the great legal brains on the other side of the House.

Paragraph I of the schedule states quite simply, and even the hon. and learned Member for Daventry ought to be able to grasp it, the governing principle which will guide the determining of the "development charge." The principle is simple and lucid. I think the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss) for whose knowledge of town planning and respect for the English language I have great admiration, will agree that paragraph r is a model of Parliamentary draftsmanship and is as lucid as anything could well be. But it is more than that. It is fair and it is equitable, and I should be very surprised if the right hon. Member for Cirencester (Mr. W. S. Morrison), if he speaks later in the Debate, suggests that what is laid down in paragraph I is not a principle that he himself would accept as perfectly equitable. The hon. and learned Member for Daventry said it was going against the recommendation of the Uthwatt Committee. He must have forgotten why the Uthwatt Committee was set up in the first instance. It was set up to prevent undesirable speculation in land during the war. They were asked to present an interim Report dealing with that urgent question and then they were asked to deal with the longer term problem of compensation and betterment

While it is true that the Uthwatt Committee fixed the 31st March, 1939, value as the value to be taken into consideration for land values after the war, it has been the policy of the Government, and I think even of the caretaker government and the Coalition Government that there should be some easement of that position. The hon. and learned Member for Daventry ought not to insult this House by coming along with his patronising airs, which might be very well in a law court—I am not a lawyer and I do not know—but are not really suitable for this House when we are discussing very simple regulations which, if properly applied and interpreted will give great benefits to the people of this country.

6.45 p.m.

I suppose I am one of those referred to by the hon. Member for Rutherglen (Mr. McAllister) as the lawyers on this side of the House who, in his words, have a somewhat specialised interest in these matters. I do not think it has ever been the custom in this House to confess as an interest, in the Parliamentary sense of the word, that one is professionally interested in matters that come under discussion. If it be so, I plead guilty to the allegation made by the hon. Member and I would add only this, that, by reason of that fact, I have paid very constant and close attention to the provisions of this Act of Parliament, both when it was going through the House and subsequently, since it has been on the Statute Book. That fact may perhaps enable me to descend a little from the airy, stratospheric heights to which he insisted on confining himself. It may be that, rubbing up against these problems as they come from day to day gives one a rather more practical approach to the matter than was anywhere evident in the speech of the hon. Member for Rutherglen.

I would like to say that there was nothing offensive, I hope, and there was nothing offensive intended, in my reference to lawyers on the other side of the House. But it did seem remarkable that so few hon. Members on the opposite side of the House, other than lawyers, were showing any interest in the regulations.

I gladly accept the explanation of the hon. Member, adding only this on behalf of my profession, that there does seem a tendency to think that one can be rude about lawyers, as one can be rude about politicians, and nobody will ever take offence.

I think it is right to say that these development charge regulations have been greeted, and will be greeted, with very considerable disappointment. Their main characteristics are a brevity, which is perhaps a desirable thing, and an obscurity which normally belongs to long documents. In this case we have a document both short and obscure. I would say about it these three things. These regulations show that the Government is clearly in breach of the undertakings repeatedly given in this House and in another place in regard to flexibility in the determination of development charges. Secondly, these regulations will, in practice, discourage that desirable development which is admittedly the positive side of Town and Country planning. Thirdly I say, and here I must contradict the hon. Member for Rutherglen, that these regulations, so far from being simple and easy to interpret, are difficult to understand on the face of it, and will be difficult to interpret and administer in practice.

During the passage of this Bill, both here and in another place, the doubts felt about this matter of development charges, if they were not resolved, were, at any rate, arrested by the assurance that the regulations would set right many things by giving ample elasticity in practice. That has not happened in these regulations, and I think it would be wrong if tonight, which is the last word that this House will have in regard to this matter, we left it without a protest.

Coming to the actual operation of this schedule we find that the sole exception to the 100 per cent. determination of development charge is that contained in paragraph 3, apart from the special unspecified cases in paragraph 4. That sole exception comes to mean, as I now interpret it, that, where the payment by way of development charge of 100 per cent. of the additional value due to the planning permission will prevent the land being freely and readily bought and sold at its existing use value, there should be a determination of less than 100 per cent.

How would this apply in practice? It will only apply where it can be established that the purchaser will not pay the existing use value plus the liability to a full development charge because he will regard himself as having a bad bargain if he has so to do. If that can be established to the satisfaction of the Board, and their opinion is confirmed thereby in accordance with paragraph 3 of the schedule, in those circumstances, and in those circumstances only, the development charge can then be reduced by the amount required to induce the purchaser to complete his purchase at existing use value. That is the sole exception from the 100 per cent. determination which is allowed by these regulations. I think that the Minister will confirm that in due course. This is, and must be, a very limited application indeed, for reasons which I will give. First, it is really a putting of the cart before the horse. What will prevent a purchaser from proceeding is not a reluctance to pay the existing use value which of itself is obviously a bargain figure. That is not what will prevent him from completing his purchase. What will prevent him is the reluctance to be mulcted of the full 100 per cent. development charge. In practice that is what will prevent him. But the development charge, which is the real preventive factor, can only be reduced and can only be taken into account in so far as it affects the former. That is to say, it can only be taken into account in so far as it affects the existing use value.

How does the hon. Member square that with paragraph 3 where it says:

"…unless in the opinion of the Board the charge ought properly to be less in order to comply with the Governing Principle."

I am obliged to the hon. Member. In fact, that is exactly what I have been explaining. I am sorry if I have not carried conviction to the hon. Member but, much as I would like to go through the whole matter again for his special benefit, I do not think that I would be in Order in so doing. The second reason is that the existing use value of undeveloped land is likely to be small. Therefore, the price will also be very small in the ordinary case of undeveloped land. For that reason, it will be very difficult to prove that it cannot readily be disposed of at existing use value. For that reason alone, the exceptions are bound to be infinitesimal. The third point is: what sort of case does the Minister envisage that the purchaser will have to put to the Central Land Board in order to persuade it to come to an opinion in the terms of paragraph 3 of the Schedule? No machinery is prescribed for any hearing or determination, or any method whereby this point can be established to the satisfaction of the Board. I suggest that that is an obvious gap in the Minister's regulations. So much for the position of the purchaser.

Of course, the main defect in this one solitary exception is that there is no inducement whatever for the vendor. Obviously, it is the vendor who is likely to be reluctant to sell at existing use value, more often than the purchaser will be reluctant to purchase at existing use value, which is a bargain price in the ordinary sense of the word. The problem in regard to the fostering of buying and selling at existing use values, and therefore of positive desirable development, is not so much a question of breaking down the sales resistance of purchasers, which is the only problem attacked by this exception—and that on a very narrow front indeed—as of making it worth while for sellers to sell. The only method contemplated in the regulations for dealing with this problem is a possibility of the relaxation of the amount of development charge levied on the purchaser. He is, however, prevented by the regulations from passing on to the vendor the advantage of that relaxation. The relaxation is, by definition, only to enable land to change hands at existing use value. I suggest to the Minister that we are in this position. To take a very homely illustration—it is as if a mother of two sons says to one of them, "Jack, if you are a good boy I will give Tommy sixpence—but, of course, only on condition that he is not allowed to give you threepence of it "That is precisely the position in the most homely illustration which I can use. The Minister shakes his head, but I think that it is so in regard to the position of the vendor who cannot benefit from this relaxation and who, therefore, has no inducement at all in many cases to sell his land.

:I would like the hon. Gentleman to clear up one point. I have been following very carefully all the points which have been made from both sides of the House. Would it not be a good thing if this schedule prevented ordinary trafficking in land for profit? Does not the Act itself and the schedules promote the development of land and the taking over of land for proper development.

No, it does just the reverse, as I have been trying to explain. I must say to the hon. Member in the words of Dr. Johnson, "I can give him an argument but not an understanding." In fact, paragraph I of this schedule is contradictory on the face of it, because a development charge, whatever else it can do, cannot secure what it purports to secure in this paragraph. That is to say, a development charge cannot, of its very nature, hope to secure the free and ready disposal of land. The whole of these regulations are unsatisfactory because there is no, or no proper, machinery for stimulating desirable development. Indeed, they are so framed as to be bound to discourage it. There is a feeling in industry today that industrialists are likely to be in difficulty about finding land for proper industrial development. It may be that we shall find ourselves increasingly thrown back on the powers given by Sections 38 and 43 of the Act for compulsory purchase. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I do not know whether that agreement means that hon. Members opposite acquiesce in the fact or whether they approve the principle. If it is the latter, I must point out that there is a law of diminishing returns which applies pretty quickly in compulsory acquisition of land. Neither this Government nor any other would be wise to foster a policy which involved too wide an application of the principle of the compulsory acquisition of land.

I would like to say a few words on the subject of this curious phrase to which attention has already been drawn—"normal processes of valuation." With great respect to the right hon. Gentleman, he did not seem very clear about these principles of valuation. This is a new phrase in the law of England which, as yet, does not exist in any statute. It is a phrase which there may be some difficulty in understanding. I apologise to the hon. Member for Rutherglen for obtruding these earthy considerations upon this theme, but everybody who has any knowledge of these matters knows that surveyors in valuing have, to some extent, different methods, and to a far greater extent they arrive at widely varying figures when valuing the same property. What is it that brings these figures together? It is the simple process of having two valuations. The best corrective to one valuation is an alternative valuation, just as the best corrective to one expert witness is an opposing expert witness. That is precisely what these regulations do not allow. These regulations should have given a much wider discretion to the Board in determining development charges on a principle of flexibility, and should, if necessary, have provided machinery for the hearing of the representations put forward by owners of land or persons desiring to develop land.

The last word I want to say is on a rather different aspect of the subject and is in regard to what is sometimes known as outline development; that is to say, in regard to land which has already, to some extent, been serviced with roads, sewers and so on. It was clearly contemplated when this Act was going through Parliament that this servicing should be taken into account, and Lord Henderson gave an undertaking to that effect in another place. With the regulations as we now have them, and with the law as it now stands, these services are not taken into account. It is true that, if land can be established to be dead ripe land under Section 80 of this Act, of course, there is an exemption from the development charge, and land which is serviced and comes within that definition is all right. I venture to say that there is going to be a good deal less land which will satisfy the conditions of Section 80 of the Act than most people at present contemplate. For one thing, it is only if there is a town planning permission which has been secured since July, 1943, that land comes within the ambit of that Section, and, for another thing, it is open to any local authority at present to revoke an outstanding town planning permission and thereby see to it that there is not an extant town planning permission on the Appointed Day. By that simple process, they can take the matter outside the operation of Section 80. These are reasons why Section 8o will be a much less good safeguard than some may imagine, and, because that is so, it makes it of vital importance that there should be some account taken of bona fide servicing of housing estates in what is known as outline development.

The Minister may say that that is taken into account in the concession in regard to near-ripe land to which it is proposed to give effect under a different part of the Act. In regard to that, I would only say—and this is a point which I made during the passage of the Bill—that it is well-known and widely accepted that the compensation coming from the £300 million fund is likely to be inadequate as an indemnity for expenditure incurred. Therefore, I suggest that this is yet another gap in these regulations. The undertaking given by Lord Henderson in another place has not been implemented; that the servicing of land has not been taken into account, so that it is possible for people to get only the agricultural value of land which they have actually serviced. That I think is a wrong principle.

I wish in conclusion to ask the Minister to bear in mind that, the more one looks at these regulations and the more one tries to consider their effect in practice, the more difficulties one can see emerging. I believe that this effort at simplification will defeat itself, and, in spite of my great respect for the Chairman of the Central Land Board and my knowledge of his great experience in these matters, I say that these regulations, as at present drafted, are unsatisfactory and that it is a great disappointment that nothing better should have come from the Minister.

7.5 P.m.

I notice a certain difference of opinion between the hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) and the hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat. The hon. and learned Member for Daventry, in my opinion, was perfectly right in commending the simplicity of the principle and the paragraphs in this schedule, but the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) seemed to me—

I did not commend the simplicity of this schedule; I condemned it for its obscurity. What I did commend was the intention to apply one general principle throughout the whole of the country, instead of a number of different principles.

I am glad to hear no serious correction of my understanding of what was said. What I understood the hon. and learned Gentleman to praise was what we may call uniformity of principle or simplicity of principle. At any rate, I understood him to be glad that there was one principle applying to all cases, though he found difficulty in discovering what it was.

I did criticise the fourth article in the schedule in that it left out entirely these wide classes of cases which I mentioned. I thought the order ought to have contained the principle which would have been applied in these cases.

I am obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman, but, surely, what he has said only confirms the opinion I formed on his previous remarks. He wanted a single principle, a simple principle and a general principle, and his objection to the schedule was that what had been laid down in the first three paragraphs was vitiated or made incomprehensible by the provisions of the fourth paragraph. What he had in mind was perfectly clear, and he agreed on the intention to get a single general principle applicable to every case. I entirely agree with him, and I disagree with the hon. Member for Hertford, who seemed to me, at the end of his speech, to be wishing to put in far more than could properly be put into this regulation. If that were done, the result would be an unworkable order.

I did say that what ought to have been done was to give a wider discretion to the Board in order to get that flexibility in assessing development charges.

That is yet another difference between the two hon. Gentlemen opposite. One complains of too much discretion being given to the Board, and the other of too little discretion. I venture to think that the schedule as it is constitutes the only proper thing to do in the circumstances, which is to give the Central Land Board a discretion in certain cases. My only criticism of the first three paragraphs is that they make what is really pretty clear in the first paragraph clearer and clearer, to such an extent that it becomes repetition. I believe that the first paragraph alone would lead to the two conclusions which emerge in the second and third paragraphs of the schedule.

I entirely fail to see the obscurity which is supposed to reside in these three paragraphs. What I should have thought right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite really intended to indicate has hardly been mentioned, and surely it is the important thing in our discussion today. The governing principle itself and the language of the remainder of the schedule make it perfectly clear that the whole of the development value will be subject to a development charge. It was said that the Uthwatt Report suggested only a percentage of the development value. I have never been able to see, at any time during the passing of the Act how even a high percentage—anything falling short of 100 per cent.—could possibly have carried out the object of the Act. I believe that if the charge were to amount to, say, 80 to 90 per cent. of the development value, the result would only be inextricable confusion. I am bound to say that when the Uthwatt Report made that recommendation I never could see, with all respect to the very learned and expert people who compiled the report, how it could be implemented.

It appears to me that this order is an essential part of the working of the Act and can only be considered in the light of the remainder of the Act. The counterpart, of course, is the compensation that is provided in another part of the Act. There was considerable discussion when the Act went through the House as to whether the global amount of £300 million was sufficient and, if not, how far it was insufficient. I apprehend that is hardly a point which is before us now; it is entirely a different question. I should have thought that the scheme of the Act could only be to remove the whole of the development value against compensation—compensation sufficient or insufficient; I do not return to that question now. There were certain exceptions. All this I believe is a perfectly clear principle and I can see no other simple system. I see very considerable advantages which will result from its application.

The main point is that any schemes of development are from their very nature bound to be more or less speculative dealings. The object of the Uthwatt Report and the object of this Act as a whole may be to eliminate in the public interest, so far as possible, the speculative element in dealings with land and the speculative element necessarily inherent in all development. It seems to me a perfectly plain, perfectly clear, and highly beneficial purpose, and I fail to see how it can be achieved otherwise than by a 100 per cent. levy on that prospective development value. For those reasons I see no practical alternative to the system adopted in the Bill.

I would like to add one word to make it clear that there must, of course, be exceptions, and one of the orders before us now is an order providing for a considerable number of exceptions. They have not been discussed and I will leave it to other people to discuss them if they wish. There is, I think, no difference whatever between the English and Scottish orders except that the Scottish order provides for exemption in the case of peat.

On a point of Order. Are we in Order in discussing what is exempted in an order which is not before us?

I thought that we had decided that each order should be taken separately, and we cannot, therefore, discuss what is in the Scottish order.

I apologise if I went beyond the limits which are permissible. There are exemptions in another order and if I went too far into detail I apologise for doing so. I would like to add one word in connection with a point raised by the hon. Member for Hertford. It seemed to me, with all respect, that in some of the criticisms he was making towards the end of his speech, in referring to Section 80 of the Act, he had omitted to look at the preceding Sections which, I think, dealt with a number of points he made.

7.17 p.m.

The hon. Member for Rutherglen (Mr. McAllister) commented, although I am sure without offence, on the number of lawyers on this side who seemed to be interested. There is no need for me to reply to that because of the speech from a lawyer on his own side, the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), who, unlike myself, found these brief Regulations clear and simple. I do not find them clear but extremely obscure.

Let me assure the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Town and Country Planning that I approach this matter, as I am inclined to approach all Regulations or Orders which come from my old Department, with a desire to construe benevolently whatever the words are. Nevertheless, I think this schedule, in the form in which it stands, is a schedule quite unworthy of approval by this House. As to how it will work out, I make no prophesy. It may be that the very hopelessness of the draftsmanship will make the very able men on the Central Land Board take a general commonsense view of the whole thing and somehow make it work. I do not know. What I am certain about is that it is the duty of this House to examine a document of this nature carefully and see what it really says and whether it says it clearly.

The first point to which I invite the attention of the House is one on which, I think, there cannot be the least difference of opinion in any quarter. It is that the Regulations before us obviously bear no resemblance whatsoever to the Regulations which the Minister had in mind at the time that the Town and Country Planning Act, which is now on the statute book, was before this House as a Bill. That is proved by three separate considerations. It is proved, first, by the obvious fact that if nothing more than these four paragraphs was contemplated, they would clearly have been put in the Act itself. There is no earthly reason why they should not have been. Secondly, it is proved by the terms of the conclusion of Section 70 (3) of the Act itself, which contemplated—and this is one of the few matters which seem to have penetrated to the Secretary of State for Scotland—regulations of great detail dealing with

Thirdly, it is proved beyond peradventure by what was said in the House of Lords by Lord Henderson. That has been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith), but it may be well to get it on the record. This is what was said on 16th July, 1947, by Lord Henderson: That was what the Government spokesman said in another place about the very regulations which we are now considering. That is what he said should be provided for in the Regulations. But it is not. Therefore, I hope everybody will agree that, whatever else can be said for or against these regulations they bear no resemblance whatever to what the Minister of Town and Country Planning and other Government spokesmen said these regulations would contain.

Let me turn for a moment to Section 70 of the Act. Section 70 (2) states the over-riding principle on which these development charges are to be based. It states:

I turn now to the first paragraph, the so-called Governing Principle. Here I must say that I find greater difficulties than, perhaps, have been expressed in any of the speeches yet made. I cannot follow the governing principle. I could quite understand a governing principle that said that, all land being now restricted by statute to its existing use, the Board shall have regard to the fact whether there is, or is not, a free market in that land so restricted. That I could understand. It would be straightforward. But what does it say? It says,

Does the hon. and learned Gentleman accept as the value for its existing use, the Schedule A value, or not?

For various reasons I think the answer to that is, "No." That does not depend on anything I say. Schedule A, I think the hon. Member will remember, is an annual value. What we are here considering is not annual value but the capital value of the land. I hope I have made myself clear on the general principle.

I ask the right hon. Gentleman this question. Provided we get a free market in the land restricted to its existing use, does he admit that the market value is the value for its existing use, and neither more nor less? If we do admit that, we are making the free market the sole test, and we do not want these words. If the right hon. Gentleman does not admit that, he ought to make clear to the House what it is that he means by these words which, after all, the House itself is to declare to be the governing principle.

Let me pass from that to the next paragraph. Of paragraph 2 I shall say nothing. It is a paraphrase of Subsection (2) of Section 70 of the Act. Now let us look at paragraph 3. That says, But the moment we make it less we make it ipso facto impossible to comply with the governing principle. It is really completely impossible. Suppose we have not got a market such as is described in paragraph I. Then, when land is sold for development, the only way we can secure the free market is by diminishing the development charge well below the 100 per cent. Ipso facto we do not comply with the governing principle laid down in paragraph I, because in those circumstances it is quite clear that the land in question will not be land openly bought and sold at a price neither greater nor less than its value for its existing use. So much for the impossibility, as I suggest, of construing paragraph I and paragraph 3 literally so as to make sense.

We now pass to paragraph 4. Paragraph 3 says we can diminish development charge so as to comply with the governing principle. I pointed out that that is impossible, but what does paragraph 4 say? It says that in the classes of transaction with which that paragraph deals—and I agree with the hon. and learned Member for Kettering that they are a limited number of categories—the Board can do anything they like with the governing principle. It says that where they think the application of the foregoing principle would be inappropriate

I am grateful to the House for its attention to the points which I have developed. I think this is the most extraordinary document brought before this House for approval since the Highway Code. Paragraph 2 is surplusage; it is. already in the Act, although I do not blame the Minister for repeating it here. Paragraph r is, I suggest, quite meaningless, if it implies that the price, neither greater nor less than its value for its existing use, is something different from the market price of the land freely bought and sold—that is, land that is already restricted to its existing use by Statute. When we come to paragraph 3 the only case where it is necessary or, indeed, in the view of the Secretary of State for Scotland, proper to apply that paragraph, is where it has to be applied in order to comply with the governing principle. But, by the mere fact of applying it, it is demonstrated that the governing principle is inapplicable. When we come to paragraph 4 we abandon all control by the House of Commons. We no longer attempt to lay down what the principles are which the Board should follow. We say that the Board, in the last category of cases, can do anything they like. If the House is prepared to vote for regulations of this kind, I believe it would vote for anything.

7.35 p.m.

I do not wish to continue the legal argument of the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss), but I must say that the more I study the Act and the more I listen to discussions about it, the more certain I am that it will be a packet of fun for the lawyers. I rise with some diffidence, because I have never been wholly in love with this Measure. Indeed, had I been the Minister I would not have introduced it; but as I was not, the consideration is, of course, different. While I wish my right hon. Friend the best of luck with his Measure, I believe that it bristles with great difficulties. The only comments I want to make are with a view to trying to persuade him to do something in the form of regulations which will get him out of his difficulties.

I cannot see how the regulations now proposed will do one of the most essential things—stimulate the proper use of land. I understand that the Act and the regulations will prevent undue profiteering in land, but I believe that the whole effect—and this regulation endorses it—will be general sterilisation, particularly of re-development. I have no wish to leave these matters in the hands of hon. Members opposite. I am not speaking for the landlords. I am utterly and unalterably opposed to landlords. Let there be no mistake about that. I want to see proper use made of land, but so far as I can see this regulation will encourage everybody to do nothing.

I regard it as a grave issue that we have to face. May I illustrate briefly what I mean? Suppose I am the owner of a site ripe for development, of which there is no use at the moment other than agricultural, and which is valued at £100. Suppose I am approached by somebody who wants to buy it from me. Suppose the improvement value is said to be £900. This means that the buyer has to pay £1,000 for it, £900 of which goes to the Central Land Board. The buyer pops round the corner to the £300 million pool, and stakes a claim for a proportion of that. There is nothing very much to stop him indulging in a hit of enterprise, but the main difficulty is this: there is an existing use value on land which is already developed. Take the case where the existing use value is still £100, and there is an £800 improvement on it—for instance, a house. The man who wants to redevelop has to pay his £800 to the Central Land Board, and gets no recoupment from the pool.

It may be true that these regulations and the Act will not materially prevent or discourage a man who wants to develop land which hitherto has not been used in any way, but they will seriously hinder anybody who wants to re-develop something which has already been badly developed. That is a thoroughly bad thing. I agree that the Minister can say that the central authority will do it for him, and will make the necessary order, but I have an abhorrence of overcentralisation. I do not think that the way to develop land is to hand it over to a lot of Whitehall officials. Does not my right hon. Friend think that that is what the regulations do?

Will my right hon. Friend explain what stimulus will be given to the man who wants to re-develop an already developed site? These regulations do nothing but discourage him. I think they approach the matter from the wrong angle. What my right hon. Friend ought to have done was to say that while recognising that land should only be developed according to plan, for the benefit of the community, people should be encouraged to re-develop land. For anybody to hold a badly developed site without penalty is a crime crying to heaven for vengeance. The Minister is the Archangel Gabriel who should set about inflicting vengeance, but he does not do it, either by the Act or by these regulations. While I have no wish to oppose the regulations, I want to say to my right hon. Friend as forcibly and as explicitly as I can, that what he is really doing by these regulations is to prevent and discourage proper development of land while inflicting no penalty whatever on those who hold land and prevent it from being developed. He is really an accessory to the villainous old system—although he is doing it for a different reason; they did it for profit and he is doing it for planning—which discourages people from doing anything at all. He ought to read that great philosopher, Henry George, and understand how properly to attack the whole problem.

7.41 p.m.

I have seldom heard a speech coming from the other side of the House with which I found myself in such agreement as that of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes).

Including, at any rate, the bit in which he said that this order will stop profiteering and all effort to develop land. That may be interpreted as saying that if the profit is taken out of business, the mainspring will be taken out of its development.

The hon. Member is quite wrong. That is precisely what I did not say. I said that this encourages people to do nothing. I want to impose a tax on land values and penalise people for doing nothing. I do not want them to make any profit out of it.

I entirely accept what the hon. Member has said. He has said that by taking the profit out of it, people are encouraged to do nothing. I am prepared to leave it at that. That is really the view which we on this side of the House take of this order.

The Secretary of State for Scotland opened this Debate in a very apologetic manner. I am not referring to that slight mistiness, which he perhaps brought with him from the northern parts of the Realm; but he did apologise for the contents of the order, and put it before the House as being not quite the order the Government would have liked, and which they contemplated at an earlier stage, but as the best they could see their way to produce at the present time. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman is right. The Government's original scheme, as developed in the Town and Country Planning Act, contemplated something entirely different from this order. The scheme was a fairly simple one. It was to acquire all development values in land—in other words, to acquire all land subject to its existing use; to vest those development values in the Central Land Board, and to give that Central Land Board suitable powers to administer their rights by disposing of these values which were to be vested in them. During the passage of that Measure the Minister constantly said that his idea was that the Board should act as a good landowner; that they were to have wide discretion, and were to do what was sensible in all the circumstances.

As my hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss) pointed out, the Minister's plan was foreshadowed in the second part of Section 70 (3) of the Act. There specific arrangement was made for the regulations to deal with the wide powers the Board were to have—powers as to which this order is completely silent. For my own part, I always thought that the ideas which the Minister had in mind were in the first place impossible, and in the second place, even if they had been possible, undesirable. The right hon. Gentleman may remember a Debate we had here, at round about this time of day, in a rather empty House, on an Amendment which I moved raising this very point. Perhaps the House will forgive me if I refer to that Debate, because it is of great interest in connection with this order. That Amendment was designed to require the Central Land Board to produce an account of the development charges which they made in so far as such development charges varied from, as it has been loosely called in this Debate, the 100 per cent. basis. In the course of his reply, the right hon. Gentle- man said a number of interesting things, including:

For my own part, I did not agree with the right hon. Gentleman's view. I did not think that wide powers should be given to the Board, and I do not think so now. My reason for saying that is that I do not believe a Board set up in this way with monopoly powers can exercise those powers in the same sort of way as private landlords have done in the past. I do not think it would be possible. That is my objection to the whole root of the Act. Now that we are bound by the terms of the Act, we have to see what sort of regulations the right hon. Gentleman is producing. There must be criticism of the order, standing as it does as part of the law of the country. The first thing that the order does is to provide that the landowner is to get the bare value for the existing use of his land. The hon. Member for Ipswich pointed out very fairly and cogently that a man who owns a farm with, say, ten acres fronting on to a road is not to get more than the bare agricultural value of that ten acres, and that when someone offers to buy it, he will not sell.

Why should he sell? He can have no possible interest in doing so. It will diminish the size of his farm and mean houses, traffic, children taking his fruit and all the rest of it; or he may be asked to sell the land for the purposes of a factory, and he will think in terms of having a factory in the neighbourhood, and refuse to sell. If we offer nothing but the bare agricultural value for the land, there can be no inducement to the owner of that land to sell it. I do not see how under this order we are to get any development at all. I suspect that the answer which the right hon. Gentleman will give will be that where a land- owner is recalcitrant about parting with a piece of land other provisions of the Act can be brought in, and the land can be bought compulsorily. The order uses the words:

As regards paragraph (3) which allows for deductions in a very special class of case—it is difficut to see how that class arises at all—and as the paragraph again refers to paragraph (2), both the maximum and minimum charges are to be arrived at by the same method of precise detailed valuation. In every case the Board will have to go through the business of getting a precise valuation. There can be no bargaining whatsoever under the order. I think that that must lead to a harshness and stiffness in all these dealings which will put a very severe brake on all development. The right hon. Gentleman may say that he will call paragraph (3) of the order in aid in the event of its being necessary to modify this harshness in some way.

I would call the attention of the House to the wording of the paragraph. I will paraphrase for convenience. A development charge below the market value is only permitted in order to comply with the governing principle, and the governing principle itself is that the land is to be bought and sold at a price precisely equal to its value for its existing use. The paragraph can only be brought into play in order to ensure that the land shall be sold at exactly its existing use value. Where, of course, it is required to bring on a sale for development purposes, and it is the purchaser who is unwilling to buy, the sale may be brought on by reducing the charge, thus giving the purchaser a stronger inducement to go ahead with the proposed sale. I do not know how many times it will occur that the proposed sale will not go on because the purchaser will be unwilling to pay the charge. I suspect that the cases will be very few and far between. Where, however, it is because the owner or vendor is unwilling to sell, as the purpose of reducing the charge is expressly to avoid letting the vendor have any other price than the existing use value, the variation of the development charge cannot possibly give any sort of inducement to him to make him wish to go forward.

I would like to get a clear statement from the right hon. Gentleman, when he comes to reply, that it is the intention of the order, as we have read it, to ensure that the vendor shall get nothing more than the bare existing use value. The order is not altogether clear. It may be that the Minister contemplates that there should be some split-up of any diminution in the amount of the charge as between the purchaser and the vendor. I did not read it so, but I think that the matter should be cleared up before the order leaves the House.

The position as I see it is this: here we have a hard, rigid, tight little scheme—if I may borrow a phrase from the Minister of Health, a thoroughly muscle-bound scheme, which is the best that the right hon. Gentleman has been able to produce. When the Bill of this Act was going through, the Minister had a beautiful but, I am afraid, futile dream. He thought in terms of a grand socialised central landlord administering the land in a benevolent way for the benefit of all to make use of the land. The idea of a single benevolent landlord has now proved to be impossible. [Interruption.] It may be that the old landlords were not per- fect, but one thing is absolutely clear, and that is that the new landlord of the future will be a much greater menace to the people of this country than ever the landlords of the past. One cannot legislate for benevolence or farsightedness. We said that over and over again during the passage of the Bill, but the right hon. Gentleman would not listen. We do not know what has happened between then and the present time, but what is perfectly clear is that the right hon. Gentleman has now found that we were right and that it was impossible to carry out the scheme which he had in contemplation. I believe that this poor miserable scheme will prove to be the final wreckage of what was fundamentally a bad Act of Parliament.

8.1 p.m.

I am glad to be able to break the almost unbroken succession of lawyers who have addressed the House on this subject this evening. I speak as a chartered surveyor who, I suppose, within the next 12 months or so, will be very much concerned with those "normal processes of valuation" which have been referred to by more than one of my hon. Friends. While, unlike some others, I would not attempt to divulge what those normal processes of valuation are, I would like the House to consider briefly the background of these regulations and some of the problems which will be involved.

Between 1st July and 31st March next all owners of land will be well advised to put in claims for the loss of development value if they consider that their land will lose its development value as a result of this Act. They or their agents will fill in the form S.I which has been drawn up by the Central Land Board, and after they have submitted their claims they will be able in due course, it is hoped, to meet the valuers appointed by the Central Lund Board, who are likely to be the district valuers of the Inland Revenue, and to discuss with them across the table what the value of their land is. Two valuations will have been made: first, the existing use value; and secondly, the full value of the land with its development value added.

Let us assume that that process has been followed, and that the district valuers have agreed with the owners' agents the development value in each particular case. Let us now suppose that the owners concerned want to carry out some development. They will have to fill in form D.I, and that will go to the valuers of the Central Land Board. They will have to state the kind of development which they propose to do. If they have not already had planning permission they will presumably have applied for such permission, or will do so when they put in their forms of application for determination of development charge. If they have not already got the necessary building licences, as I understand it, they will be able at the same time to apply for the necessary licences to carry out the development, and for determination of the development charge.

What happens? Those forms go to the district valuers. The district valuers, in my view, will undoubtedly look up the records and see what claim has been made against the £300 million fund by the owners of the land; they will see the owners' own valuation of the existing use value of the land and the owners' own assessment of the development value of the land. The district valuers will have complete records. Some hon. Members have spoken about discrepancies in valuation. Of course, there are different values for different purposes, and my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) was quite right when he said that the best procedure is to get two valuers, put them opposite each other and let them discuss the matter together.

I have no doubt that the prudent landowner, when he is filling in his form S. I, will put the existing use value of his land as low as possible, and the development value of his land as high as possible, because the amount of the gap between those two values will be the amount of the claim that he will prefer against the Central Land Board for a share in the £300 million. When he comes to develop his land he will naturally want to show, if possible, that the existing use value was high and that the extra value that will accrue to his land as a result of his proposed development is low, so that the development charge will be low.

I hope I have made this clear. It seems to me that where, in the case of an assessment of a claim for a share of the £300 million, we have allowed a right of the owner or his valuer to meet the district valuers—the valuers of the Central Land Board—face to face across the table to discuss with them what figure ought to be returned for the loss of development value, we ought also to allow the same right in the case of the valuation for the development charge. I very much regret that such a provision is not specified in the regulations. The Minister knows that I was one of those who attended Standing Committee D, and I also had the privilege of sitting through the passage of the corresponding Scottish Bill. I made these points on several occasions and, although I may have been wrong, I always understood that the owner's agent would have the opportunity of discussing with the Central Land Board's valuers the charges that ought to be made.

I can see nothing in these regulations which will give the owner of land any sort of right, or which will enable him at all to go and meet the district valuers to discuss the question of the development charge. There should be such a right because, as I have pointed out, the district valuers are bound to use the information which they have already in the form which the owner has already completed, and it may be that the development that he wants to undertake will not be exactly the same as the development in respect of which he filled in his form. He may want to undertake a modified form of development. The circumstances may not be the same. The values may be different because of the passage of time. Time alters values as it alters many other things. The values may be different because the use to which the land is to be put may be quite different from the use which was originally contemplated when the claim against the £300 million was submitted. Because there is that possibility of wide differences between the owner's agents and the Central Land Board's valuers, the regulations ought to provide that the owner has an unquestioned right to meet those valuers face to face and to discuss these matters with them across the table.

I think also that there should be a right of appeal, and that it should be provided in the regulations. There is always difficulty about an exact valuation, particularly of prospective developments; it may be a development by the addition of two or three storeys to shop building, or by the building of cottages on an agricultural estate. There are all sorts of different types of development, and it is difficult to value exactly what the development charge ought to be in these cases. It is always manner of argument, and in reserve there ought to be a right of appeal, a right of arbitration, in the event of disagreement between the owners and the Central Land Board about the amount of the development charge.

My second complaint is that these regulations do nothing to encourage positive planning. When we were discussing this provision of the Bill hon. Members on both sides of the House welcomed it. I did so myself, because it seemed to give an opportunity for positive planning as opposed to purely negative planning. The sort of thing I had envisaged—and I am bitterly disappointed that it appears not now to be possible—is that if we wanted industries to be steered towards certain parts of the country, towards Development Areas for example, by lowering the development charge in those areas we would encourage industrialists to set up their works there. I am afraid the Government have missed a great chance. By positive planning the countryside could have been developed in the way we want it—" the right use of land," is the phrase used by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes). I understood him to say that he could not see how the regulations would stimulate the proper use of land. I am afraid they will not. The point was raised by the hon. Member for South Hendon (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth) and many other hon. Members on this side of the House. The idea that the Bill would encourage positive planning was not mine alone.

I would remind the House of one or two quotations made during the passage of the Bill through this House and through the Upper Chamber. I want to quote first of all the Minister of Town and Country Planning on 29th January, 1947, when he said:

I am bound to say that I was very much astounded that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland, when explaining these regulations to the House, said—I think I have his words correctly—that that had been the intention of the Government when they passed the matter over to the Central Land Board. As this is the first opportunity one has had since the Town and Country Planning Act became an Act, may I say with what acceptance the appointment of Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve as chairman of the Central Land Board was received on, I think, all sides—

By everyone, let me then say, connected with the valuing profession. The way in which Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve has handled the affairs of the War Damage Commission gives good grounds for assuming that the Central Land Board will be very well directed.

Reverting to the remarks of the Secretary of State for Scotland, I understood him to say that when the matter was handed over to the Central Land Board, the implications of the Bill were examined by the chairman. The inference seemed to be that the Government had not done so—I think that was a clear inference. Having examined the implications of the Bill he decided that, as a result, the best thing would be to impose a governing principle under which the standard charge would be 100 per cent.

Finally, I want to refer to a point made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) and by some of my hon. Friends in regard to paragraph 4 of the schedule. I observe in Section 81 (I) of the Act that, with regard to mineral workings, the provisions of the Act shall have effect, completely the principle of positive planning.

8.24 p.m.

I think the House will agree that these regulations have been very adequately and fully discussed.

I do not close the Debate. I thought it would be useful if, before we got to the stage of very much greater repetition, I dealt with some of the points that have been made. I think that the criticisms we have heard from Members opposite fall into three main categories: first, the regulations are criticised on the grounds that they are obscure and vague, second, that they do not permit flexibility, which is contrary to the view which I and other Members expressed in the course of the discussion on the Bill, and, third, that they provide no incentive to development. I propose to deal with each of these three objections, but before I come to that I wish to clear up one or two points raised by the hon. Member for West Aberdeen (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley). He asked whether there are to be further regulations regarding mineral values? The answer is, "Yes," and quite soon.

In view of that very important statement which affects paragraph 4 very considerably, does it mean that there will also be other regulations dealing with the other classes under paragraph 8, and that we shall lose Section 8 of the Act?

The answer is, "No." My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) made a speech mainly with a view to advertising certain works of a person known as Henry George. In the course of his remarks he referred to the fact that persons were discouraged from redeveloping their land, but they are not in fact, because rebuilding for existing use is exempted from development charges.

The House will agree that this question of development charges is a difficult and technical one. It is a novel conception, and I would not apologise for having second thoughts or even third thoughts on this highly intricate matter. We have, before submitting these regulations, had discussions with a great many people and a great many bodies, and we have endeavoured to get the views of everyone who might have something to say. We have consulted no less than 42 organisations, and it may interest the House to know that some had no observations to make on this particular regulation. I do not want to weary the House, but among those who might have had some criticisms to offer were the urban district councils, the rural district councils, the City of London, the Town Planning Institute, the Royal Institute of British Architects, the Auctioneers and Estate Agents Institute, the Land Agents Society, the Architects and Surveyors Incorporated Association, the Valuers Institution, the Law Society, the Association of British Chambers of Commerce, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say exactly what conclusions he draws from that, and what they were consulted about? Is the House to understand that this regulation was submitted to 42 bodies outside this House before we had any knowledge of it, or what was it they were consulted about?

They were consulted about the principle which was to be submitted to this House, which is not an uncommon thing. It is no good the hon. Member pretending to be shocked about it. It is always done.

While not in the least shocked, do I understand that all these bodies were shown the actual wording of paragraphs I and 3?

They were not asked to comment on the grammar. They were asked to comment on the principle of a charge of 100 per cent.

This is important. Is the right hon. Gentleman telling the House that these actual regulations and words were shown to these bodies?

I thought I had answered that. The answer is, "No." I am not running away from the hon. Member. What I am saying is that they were not asked to comment on the exact wording. I claim to have the support, expressed or implied, of those bodies for the prin- ciple in these regulations. The other point—I am authorised to say this—is that these regulations were framed in consultation with the Central Land Board, which is in full agreement with them. I am prepared to admit in this instance that the Central Land Board saw and approved the actual wording. It is a very strange thing that the Board, with its distinguished chairman, should not have found that the wording of the regulations was obscure and vague had it in fact been so.

The best answer to the suggestion that the regulations are obscure and vague is that the speeches of the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) and the hon. Member for South Hendon (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth) showed that these hon. Gentlemen both understood and were familiar with the regulations, though I think the hon. Member for Hertford made a pretence of suggesting that they were obscure. However, the whole trend of his speech denied it because it showed he had a remarkably clear grasp of the regulations. I do not suggest that he approves of the regulations. Indeed, he was critical of them, but in his criticism he proved conclusively that they are not obscure and vague, but that, on the contrary, he understands them exactly as I understand them. It was so with the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Hendon. We have had many tussles in the past and he adheres to the view he has hitherto expressed. He is certainly inflexible in that respect, but he wants me to be flexible. At any rate, he showed clearly that he understood what the regulations meant and there was no doubt in his mind.

If there was doubt in the mind of the hon. and learned Gentleman the junior Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss) or the hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) it seems to me to imply that they have not acquired a grasp of the Act itself. That view was strengthened by some of the comments made by the hon. and learned Gentleman for Daventry He wondered whether, in making calculations, the Central Land Board would take into account the cost of development and the development profit. That seems clearly to indicate that he does not understand the Act. [Laughter.]

This may be a laughing matter for some hon. Members behind the right hon. Gentleman, but the Minister has misrepresented my argument. I asked him not what was in the Act—I remember a good deal of what was in it; I do not say all of it, but a good deal of it—but what was meant by the phrase "the normal process of valuation" and what would that include? I did not wonder anything, but I asked the right hon. Gentleman a serious question.

The very fact that the hon. and learned Gentleman put those questions indicated to me that he could not have understood the Act. If he had understood it he would not have put those questions.

If the right hon. Gentleman is going to make these debating points and ask us, who sat through the Committee, to say that we do not understand the Act, will he say in what respect these regulations have given effect to Section 70 (3) of the Act—one of the provisions he put into the Bill?

I did not suggest that hon. Gentlemen opposite did not understand the Act. On the contrary, I thought my remarks indicated that at least three hon. Gentlemen, to whom I have already referred, did understand it. I was merely referring to one hon. and learned Gentleman who put a question to me and it appeared from that that he did not understand or shall we say that he forgot—it is a long time since we had a full discussion on the Act and no doubt the hon. and learned Gentleman has had other matters to think of since then—the contents of the Bill. I suggest—and this is not a debating point—that when at least three hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House show quite clearly by their speeches that the regulations are not vague and obscure and they deal with them seriously and in a way which is clear to everybody, I am entitled to say that any suggestion that these regulations are vague and obscure is frivolous and inaccurate.

I will pass to the next point, namely, the charge that there is no flexibility in these regulations; that the Central Land Board is compelled to charge automatically the difference between the existing value and the market value; and that this is a departure from the policy stated in the course of the Second Reading and the Committee stage of the Bill. I want to admit at once that there has been a departure. It would be wrong and unfair to the House to deny that, we have had second thoughts about it. We started off with the idea that the Central Land Board would be able to exercise discretion in particular cases as to the amount of development charges that should be imposed. The case which I made for it at that time has been quoted by hon. Members opposite. I do not blame them for those quotations, and they quoted quite fairly the view which I gave in the course of the passage of the Bill through the House.

I want to say quite frankly to the House—if I have to stand in a white sheet I am quite prepared to do it—that I have had second thoughts. This is a most difficult and complicated matter, and I was to a certain extent put in a difficulty by an Amendment introduced in another place. I do not pretend that that is a conclusive reason but when words are inserted which require that the Central Land Board shall not give undue or unreasonable preference or advantage to one applicant over another, it makes it a little more difficult for the Board to exercise that discretion which I thought during the passage of the Bill it would be able to exercise.

After much thinking and long discussions with the Central Land Board, which unanimously took the view that the policy which had been set out during the passage of the Bill through the House was not workable, I eventually came to the conclusion that the policy set out in these regulations was right and I shall tell the House why. I am satisfied that it is implicit in the whole conception of this matter that the price of land should be restricted to its existing use value. The whole conception is that the value of land is divided into two parts—the value restricted to its existing use and the development value. The market value is the sum of the two. If, by the action of the State, the development value is no longer in the possession of the owner of the land, then all he has left is the existing use value. Moreover the fund of £300 million is being provided for the purpose of compensating the owner of land for this reduced value.

This sum of money is being provided to compensate owners of land in respect of the reduced value, and therefore the owner of land can have no possible claim to any part of the development value and it is logical and right that the State should, when development takes place, make a charge which represents the amount of the development value. However, I deny emphatically that in making that charge the Central Land Board need necessarily act harshly or without any flexibility. After all, nobody knows better than the hon. Member for West Aberdeen that valuation is not an exact science. There is room for difference of opinion and, as the hon. Member for Hertford quite rightly said, it is always possible to put different values on land. It is not intended that the Central Land Board should announce their decision and then require the proposed developer to take it or leave it. That is not the way in which the thing will work at all. The hon. Member for Kincardine is quite right in saying that the amount of the development charge ought to be a matter for negotiation and discussion, and I can assure him that it will be. It is true that the Central Land Board must in the first instance make up their own minds what is the right figure, but, having told the proposed developer what that figure is, they will be prepared—and I am assured that is the case—to hear the views of the developer or his agent, to enter into discussion, and to arrive at the figure by a process of negotiation if the developer and his agent have been able to make a case that there is anything wrong or debatable about the valuation which has been made on behalf of the Central Land Board.

Therefore, there is no question of harshness in the method by which this principle will be applied but I recognise that is not altogether answering the case which has been made against it. In the course of the passage of the Bill it was contemplated that in some cases the charge might be less than 100 per cent. whereas in these regulations no such provision is made except in paragraph 3, and I agree with those Members opposite who have stated that the number of cases to which paragraph 3 will apply will be very small indeed. The hon. Member for Hertford was right, although neither he nor I knows at this moment what kind of cases will come up. We are working in the dark in this, we are providing for eventualities, and I admit that if at this moment I were asked to say what kind of case will come under paragraph 3, I could not say any more than he could. I have no doubt that experience will show that cases will arise, and it will then be possible for the Central Land Board to deal with them by the method contemplated in paragraph 3.

Even that does not necessarily permit of their making a charge of less than 100 per cent., but there will be cases where development is desirable, and where on the basis of ordinary processes of valuation—that is, by taking into account transactions which have taken place in respect of similar land—the Central Land Board will be required to make a certain development charge, they will have discretion to disregard transactions where they are not truly applicable, and to make different valuations, and in that sense they will have a certain degree of flexibility. In other words, the flexibility which I had formerly thought the Central Land Board should be able to exercise, will arise in the process of valuation rather than in the percentage which they will be charging.

I believe that we are getting clearer and beginning to understand. The right hon. Gentleman has said that there might be two similar cases and yet the Central Land Board would draw a distinction between the two. Supposing there was one area where it was desirable to encourage development because of unemployment but where the land, from a valuation point of view, was the same in both cases. Under this regulation will the Central Land Board be allowed to charge a lower development charge in the case where it is desirable to encourage development?

The regulations do not require the Board to make that distinction. In fact, the Act itself rather discourages it. What will happen, however, is that in the area where development is desired but is not taking place, the development charge will, by the normal process of valuation, be low. It is bound to be so because the development charge is the difference between two values, one of which reflects the prospect of development in the area, and it must therefore follow that in an area where the prospects of development are small and development needs to be encouraged, the development charge will be less than in the case where development is not desired to the same extent. Therefore, to a considerable degree, the thing will right itself by the normal processes of valuation. What I am trying to indicate is that even in the normal processes of valuation there is room for a certain amount of elasticity, and I would expect the Central Land Board to exercise that elasticity in valuation rather than in the percentage that they will charge.

The final point that was made, I think by every speaker from the other side of the House, was that under these regulations there would be no incentive. They did not quite make clear for whom they wanted to provide an incentive. Was it the vendor, the developer or the proposed purchaser?

Let us take them one by one. First, let us take the proposed developer, because after all the purpose is to encourage positive development in the right place. Therefore the essential thing is to provide an incentive for the proposed developer. What is the incentive? He will pay no more for his land under the Act and under these regulations than he would have paid under the pre-Act conditions. That is to say, the price of his land at the existing use value and cost of development charge will be no greater than it would have been had he bought at market value.

Do hon. Members suggest that the developer needs any further incentive or that he ought to get any further incentive? I take it that the answer is no. Then I take it that their criticism is that no incentive is being provided for the vendor—why should he sell his land if he is only going to get the existing use value? I will not exaggerate, but as a matter of fact certainly 90 per cent. of the sales of land today are at existing use value—more than go per cent. Every time a man sells his house he is selling it at existing use value plus scarcity value—its existing use value. He is selling it as a house.

Surely the argument depends on undeveloped land, and concerns the difficulty which will arise in there being no inducement to vendors of undeveloped land, as, for example, in the case of selling land at agricultural value in a location where it is desired to encourage industry.

I am not running away from the point. I wish that hon. Members opposite would assume that I wish to meet their case, but I cannot do it in one breath. I am trying to develop the argument. Today 90 per cent. of the transactions are on the basis of existing use value. There is no suggestion that the owner of land needs an incentive to sell his land. Why should he be given an incentive to sell his land under the new conditions? He will get what is the new market value for his land, and most people who put their land in the market for sale expect to get the market value for it, no more and no less.

I do not pretend that the Act will bring more land into the market. People will still sell their land when they wish to do so for one reason or another. There are 101 reasons why people decide to sell their land, and they need no incentive other than that they are to get the true market value for it. I submit that when the appointed day comes and people decide to sell their land, they need no more incentive than that they will get the new market value for their land plus their share, if any, in the £300 million for loss of development value.

I must confess that I fail to understand the point of the criticism that there will be no incentive. People only sell their land when they want to dispose of it, and for no other reason. Nevertheless, there have been considerable transactions of land in the past and I anticipate that there will be an equally considerable number of transactions in land in the future, and that the owner will get what he wants for his land, based on existing use value. But the Act does provide a further incentive or inducement where an owner is unwilling to sell his land or to develop it, and yet that development of that land is essential in the national interest. Then the Central Land Board can acquire the land for the purpose of ensuring that it is developed. Indeed, under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, as I am sure the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities will agree, local authorities were able in certain cases to acquire such land for the purpose of ensuring that it was properly developed. The process, therefore, is nothing new. Either the local authority or the Central Land Board can, in proper cases, acquire the land and ensure that development does rightly take place. But I believe that the fact that these powers exist, and will be operated in proper cases, will provide a sufficient incentive and inducement to owners of land to carry out such development of the land as may be desirable in the public interest.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman one question before he passes from this point? Do I understand him to say that when land is universally subjected to deprivation of development value, as it will be after the appointed day, and there is a free market in land, that that market value will be, in the words of paragraph I:

"a price neither greater nor less than its value for its existing use."

Does he say that nobody will attempt to calculate its value for existing use by any other method than by looking at the market value?

I thought it was very clear from paragraph, I and indeed the interpretation which the hon. and learned Gentleman put upon it is right. I do not see where his difficulty comes in.

There is one final point to which I wish to refer which is a point mentioned by the hon. Member for Hertford about the servicing of land, and the amount of development charge that would be imposed on that land. There are two ways of dealing with this. One way would be to provide that, in fixing the development charge, a reduction should be made in respect of the cost of the servicing. The other method is to give the owner a right to make a claim on the £300 million in respect of the cost of servicing. I think the second method is right. It is much more equivalent, much more analogous, to the cost of near-ripe land, than it is to anything else, and I think it should be dealt with in very much the same way.

I would assure the hon. and learned Gentleman, so far as I am concerned, that this kind of cost will be taken into account when the scheme for the distribution of the £300 million is made. I recognise that, in one way or another, account ought to be taken of any expenditure on the land.

the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for reminding him, because it is an important point, that the second of those alternative methods is open to the grave disadvantage that it can only be indulged in at the expense of other claimants, whereas the giving of recognition, by way of relief from development charge, would be exempted from that particular disadvantage.

I certainly recognise that, from the point of view of the owner, the former is preferable, but I do not necessarily accept that any payments made will be at the expense of other claimants I assure the hon. Gentleman that it is a point which will be taken into account, because nobody would wish to deprive the owner of land of any of the benefit from any expenditure he has incurred on it.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to deal with one point which I raised? That is the apparent conflict, and I am dealing with the wording of the regulations, between Regulation 3 and Regulation I Is it not the case under Regulation 3 that only less than 100 per cent, development charge can be levied in order to comply with the governing principle, and if less than 100 per cent, is charged the governing principle will not be complied with, in that the vendor, or the developer, will retain more than the value for its existing use?

That is so, of course, in the normal case. I say frankly that this is put in largely as a matter of precaution to enable the Central Land Board to deal with cases which are at present unforeseeable. I cannot pretend that we can put our fingers on specific cases to which paragraph 3 at the moment will apply. I do not agree that there is a conflict, because all the way through the governing principle will apply. We say that if it should turn out in some cases that it is necessary to make some variation in the development charge in order to comply with the governing principle, then the governing principle prevails as against the full amount of the development charge. Such cases have not come to our notice at the moment, though they probably will. I think they are likely to arise through defects in valuation. Those are the kind of cases which may come about where the normal processes of valuation do not give us the correct result. Paragraph 3 would enable one to correct it. I cannot give the hon. and learned Gentleman a specific example, though there is no conflict between paragraph I and 3 and it is certainly not intended that there should be.

I hope I have satisfied the House that we have conscientiously applied ourselves to deal with what I regard as probably the most difficult of the various regulations which from time to time will come before the House. I freely admit that in some respects the regulation before the House is not the one which might have been expected from the discussions we have had earlier. However, I do not think I need apologise too strenuously for having had second thoughts about it and for having given further consideration—possibly even for having listened to some of the arguments of hon. Gentlemen opposite, particularly those of the hon. Member for South Hendon. He claims that he is really the father of these regulations. If he is the father, I will be the mother. I hope the House will now see fit to affirm this regulation.

9. 3 P.m.

We on this side of the House would not condemn the right hon. Gentleman or any Member of the Government for having second thoughts. We are, however, entitled to complain that the right hon. Gentleman should have begun his speech tonight by complaining that we said that we did not understand this regulation and implying that we understood it perfectly well. This regulation was not introduced by a speech saying that the Government had had second thoughts. Nothing in the opening speech gave any explanation of the complete incompatibility between the wording of this regulation and a number of statements made by the Minister of Town and Country Planning both in Committee upstairs, on the Report stage on the Floor of this House, and again in statements made on behalf of the Government in another place when they were considering the Town and Country Planning Bill.

I think the hon. Member will agree that what he is saying that I did not say is the very thing for which I was reproached by hon. Members opposite. I pointed out that when the Central Land Board came to examine this matter they made certain recommendations which are now embodied in these regulations. Hon. Members opposite will agree that they reproached me and said that the Government should have thought this out beforehand. The hon. Member must agree that the implication was that there were second thoughts for which we were reproached when I made that speech.

The Secretary of State for Scotland will not claim that in his very brief and perfunctory explanation of this regulation he said anything like what has been said by the Minister of Town and Country Planning. I make no complaint that the Minister of Town and Country Planning was not here when the regulation came up for discussion. I asked a question about it because I did not know why he was not here and thought that he might be ill. I myself have not been in the House on occasions when Business has gone with more speed than was anticipated, and I make no complaint on that account. I do complain that, when the right hon. Gentleman gave us a very complete and persuasive explanation of his regulation, he should have complained that we had described these regulations as obscure, and he said that, because two of the speeches made on this side of the House had expounded the principles of these regulations, they could not be said to be obscure. The right hon. Gentleman will not accuse me of starting out with any prejudice against either the Town and Country Planning Act or the regulations made thereunder. I consulted a chartered surveyor as to the meaning of this regulation, and he told me that he was not in the least sure how it was to be interpreted.

I am going to make a few criticisms, and I begin by saying that I came here this afternoon expecting to have explained to me the apparent discrepancy between the regulations and certain Sections in the Act. In order to justify what I have said in an interruption to the right hon. Gentleman, I would remind him once again that Section 70 (3) of the Act says that such regulations as are under discussion tonight—

The right hon. Gentleman also made great play with the fact that 42 different bodies have been consulted about these regulations. I still do not know what conclusion he draws from that. Some of these bodies were highly expert bodies which naturally would not express an opinion on anything that was of a political nature. In so far as bodies like the chartered surveyors were consulted, it would only have been useful or effective to consult them if they had been shown the actual wording of the regulation, which, as I told the right hon. Gentleman, was what one distinguished chartered surveyor told me he could not understand. I know from him that the wording which he did not understand had not been submitted to the learned body of which he is a member

I now pass to the second criticism which we make from this side of the House, and to which the right hon. Gentleman attempted to make a reply, which is that under this regulation the administration must be inflexible, whereas it had been the intention of the right hon. Gentleman, as expressed in the Act, that it should be flexible. I understood from his speech that the flexibility is to be put into the development charge, as opposed to its being put into the percentage of the development value which was to be levied by the Central Land Board as a condition of giving assent for development.

That, of course, is a very great change. I cannot help thinking it is a serious change for the worse. If, as is provided under the regulation, development value is to be ascertained in accordance with the ordinary practice of surveyors, then the amount of development value in any piece of land must be an ascertainable amount. I do not say that it is necessarily very accurately ascertainable, but it is ascertainable according to recognised principles. Under the intention of the Act, and, as the right hon. Gentleman has quite clearly admitted, in accordance with what has been his intention, the Central Land Board was to exact a different percentage according to whether or not it was desirable to encourage development.

I must say that I think it is a great change for the worse that on every occasion, except in quite exceptional circumstances, the Central Land Board is obliged to charge 100 per cent. of the increment in value. In order that there shall be this flexibility the amount of the increment in value is to be altered in accordance with bargaining between the Central Land Board and the proposed developer. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will correct me if I have misunderstood him in any way. Whereas at the time the Bill was being passed he had regarded the development value as a precisely ascertainable sum, and he had intended that the development charge, the amount to be taken by the Central Land Board, should be a variable percentage of that amount, under this regulation 100 per cent. has to be taken on virtually every occasion, but there is to be bargaining between the intending developer and the Central Land Board as to what the actual increment in value is to be. I think that that is a very great change for the worse.

I do not think it is possible to arrive at any satisfactory arrangement about these matters when we have a monopolist on the one hand and a number of perhaps competing developers on the other. I am glad to find that the right hon. Gentleman has now suddenly come to be a great believer in the market price and in leaving things free to find their own level. There was a time when he was more of a Socialist planner. That was when he was piloting the Bill through the House He now thinks it is better to leave scope for bargaining between the Central Land Board and the developers. I am sorry to see this change, and I cannot believe it is a change for the better.

Now I come to the third point which we have made on this side of the House, and it follows from what I have already said. Unless there is some inducement to the owner of agricultural land to sell it for development purposes, he obviously will refuse to do so. In the case of the ordinary farmer or landowner in the country, unless he is to obtain some financial advantage by selling his pleasant green fields for industrial development, he is hardly likely to do so. I was not surprised when, in the course of the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) certain hon. Gentlemen on the Benches opposite pointed out that by Section 38 of the Act there is power of compulsory acquisition, so that in the case where landowners are not willing to sell their land for development purposes, it is possible for compulsory powers to be used.

I was much more surprised to find the Minister himself using that argument. He did say, in the course of the Debates on the Bill, that there was not the slightest intention of using this Town and Country Planning Act for introducing nationalisation of land by a side-wind. Knowing him as I have done since he has been Minister—and, indeed before that—I thought he would have taken the view that the best planned development of this country would come from a combination of private enterprise and general surveillance and guidance by local authorities and the Ministry of Town and Country Planning. I beg him to reflect before he takes away from the owners of land all inducement to sell their land for development purposes and tries to rely upon the compulsory powers, which were not given by this House with the intention that they should be, so to speak, the main driving force behind the Act. They were included in this Act in order that there should be adequate power for dealing with unreasonable and recalcitrant people who were unwilling to make their land available for obviously important and desirable development. It was not intended that throughout the length and breadth of the country, wherever any further urban or housing or industrial development was desirable—and many of us believe that proper planning does require more industrial development in country districts as well as in towns—there should, as an ordinary matter of course, be used powers which were only intended to be used in exceptional cases.

I was frankly surprised when I found that this regulation provided for the taking of 100 per cent. of the development value. I make no complaint on the grounds of equity. I make great complaint on the grounds of expediency. I have always been desirous that this Town and Country Planning Act should work, in order that the land of this country may be used in the best interests of the people as a whole, and that there shall be a fair balance kept between the maintenance of the amenities of the countryside and such further urban and industrial development as may be necessary. I believe that the provisions of this regulation, which the House has been asked to approve tonight, are likely to make the whole Act unworkable. I believe that the flexibility which the right hon. Gentleman has claimed can only be introduced by falsifying the valuation of development value in land, and that the fact that in the vast majority of cases the whole of that value will be taken by the Central Land Board is likely to hold up and obstruct the development of our country.

9.23 p.m.

I was surprised to hear the Minister say at the beginning of his speech that there would be no development charge on redevelopment. He repeated that. I wonder if that really means that land now developed will not be subject to any charge upon re-development, because if that is so, it would cut out of the development charge all land now subject to Schedule A taxation. I understood, when the Bill was going through the House, that the existing value would be the capitalised Schedule A value, and that the development charge plus that capitalised value would absorb the total market value of the land. Now we understand from the Minister that that is not so. The development charge is to be the subject of negotiations and, of course, can be reduced at the owners' own sweet will. The Minister has gone further and told us that if it is desirable to development in certain areas they may be exempted altogether, which seems to me a complete departure from the principles underlying his own Second Reading speech.

The hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) complained that there was no elasticity in these regulations; other hon. Members opposite complained that they were far too rigid in their application; but we on this side of the House believe that they are not rigid enough. I should like to see the Central Land Board tied down to a policy of having to collect the whole Too per cent. of the development charge, without any exemptions at any time. That was the original undertaking, and we understood from other Ministers who have been interviewed since the Town and Country Planning Act went through the House that that was the policy of the Government. However, as half a loaf is better than no bread, I do not propose to vote with the Opposition against this order. In view of the concessions the Minister has made tonight I should have thought that the Opposition would have been glad to accept them because he has given away the whole case for his present regulations.

The Minister has said that there will be no charge on re-development. I hope that matter will be taken up, and possibly dealt with by the Parliamentary Secretary, because from the Act and these regulations it would appear that where there is development of more than 10 per cent. a development charge will be made. That means there is an additional inducement to the present owners to keep dilapidated and unused buildings as they are. It may be that in this country there is so much land in the hands of local authorities that that may not apply. We on this side of the House hope that when land is deliberately held out of use compulsory powers of purchase will be exercised, and that local authorities and the Central Land Board will speedily acquire the land to allow fresh development.

I have in mind a piece of enclosed land, subject to a Schedule A valuation of £15 a year. It is not used, but simply because it is enclosed it is subject to that valuation, which means that the capital value on the Schedule A is in the neighbourhood of £300. Two or three years ago £900 was paid for that land. I hope the Minister will make it clear that the Central Land Board are expected to collect the £600 difference, otherwise there is no hope at all that within five years, or any foreseeable period, the Central Land Board will be able to collect the £300 million compensation which they propose to pay under the Act.

Question put,

"That the Town and Country Planning (Development Charge) Regulations, 1948, dated 23rd April, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 29th April, be approved."

The House divided: Ayes, 221; Noes, 74.

Division No. 155.

AYES.

9.30 p.m.

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Guy, W. H.

Poole, Cecil (Lichfield)

Adams, W T. (Hammersmith, South)

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Popplewell, E.

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Alpass, J. H.

Hardy, E. A.

Proctor, W. T.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Henderson, Rt Hon. A. (Kingswinford)

Pryde, D. J.

Awbery, S. S.

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Pursey, Cmdr. H

Ayles, W. H.

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Randall, H E

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

Hobson, C. R.

Rankin, J.

Bacon, Miss A

Holman, P.

Reeves, J.

Baird, J

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Balfour, A.

Hoy, J.

Rhodes, H.

Barstow, P. G.

Hubbard, T.

Richards, R.

Beattie, J. (Belfast, W.)

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

Bechervaise, A. E.

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Beswick, F.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Royle, C.

Blackburn, A. R

Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Scollan, T.

Blenkinsop, A.

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Scott-Elliot, W.

Blyton, W R.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Sharp, Granville

Bottomley, A. G.

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Shawcross, Rl Hen. Sir H. (St. Helens)

Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Jay, D. P. T.

Shurmer, P

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

Silkin, Rt. Hon. L

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Jenkins, R. H.

Silverman, J (Erdington)

Brown, T. J. (lnce)

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Simmons, C. J.

Buchanan, Rt. Hon. G

Jones, P Asterley (Hitchin)

Skeffington, A. M

Burke, W. A.

Keenan, W.

Skinnard, F. W

Carmichael, James

Kenyon, C.

Sorensen, R. W.

Castle, Mrs. B. A

King, E. M.

Soskice, Sir Frank

Champion, A. J.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Stamford, W

Cocks, F. S.

Leonard, W.

Steele, T.

Coldrick, W.

Leslie, J. R.

Stewart, Michael (Fulham. E)

Collindridge, F.

Lipson, D. L

Stubbs, A. E

Colman, Miss G M

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

Sylvester, G. O

Comyns, Dr. L

Logan, D. G.

Symonds, A. L

Cook, T. F.

Lyne, A. W.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

McAdam, W.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Corlett, Dr. J

McAllister, G.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Cove, W. G

McGhee, H. G

Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

Daines, P.

McGovern, J.

Titterington, M F

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

McKinley, A S

Tolley, L.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

McLeavy, F.

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon G

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Mainwaring, W. H.

Turner-Samuels, M.

Delargy, H. J.

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Diamond, J.

Mann, Mrs. J.

Viant, S. P.

Dobbie, W.

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Wadsworth, G

Dodds, N. N.

Mayhew, C. P

Walker, G. H

Driberg, T. E. N.

Mellish, R. J.

Wallace, H W (Walthamstow, E)

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Middleton, Mrs. L.

Watkins, T E

Dumpleton, C. W.

Mikardo, Ian

Watson, W. M

Durbin, E. F. M.

Mitchison, G. R

Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

Dye, S

Moody, A S

West, D G

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Morley, R.

Westwood, Rt. Hon. J

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J (Edinburgh, E.)

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Moyle, A.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

Mulvey, A.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

Murray, J. D

Wilkes, L.

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Nally, W.

Wilkins, W. A.

Fairhurst, F.

Naylor, T. E.

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Farthing, W. J.

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Williams, D. J.(Neath)

Fernyhough, E

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Fletcher, E. G. M (Islington, E.)

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

Foot, M. M.

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Williams, Rt. Hon T. (Don Valley)

Forman, J. C

Oliver, G. H.

Williams, W R (Heston)

Gallacher, W.

Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

Willis, E

Ganley, Mrs. C. S

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Wills, Mrs. E. A

Gibbins, J.

Palmer, A. M. F

Wise, Major F. J

Gibson, C. W

Pargiter, G. A

Woodburn, A

Gilzean, A.

Parker, J.

Yates, V. F

Glanville, J. E (Consett)

Parkin, B. T

Younger, Hon Kenneth

Gordon-Walker, P. C

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Zilliacus, K

Grenfell, D. R

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Grey, C. F

Pearson, A.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Peart, T F

Mr. Snow and

(Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Lianelly)

Perrins, W.

Mr. George Wallace.

NOES.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

Law, Rt. Hon R. K.

Raises, H V

Amory, D. Heatheoat

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Rayner, Brig. R.

Baldwin, A. E.

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

Low, A. R. W.

Ropner, Col L.

Beechman, N. A

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Sanderson, Sir F

Bennett, Sir P.

Mackeson, Brig. H. R

Scott, Lord W.

Bowen, R.

Maclay, Hon. J. S.

Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A

Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col W

Maitland, Comdr. J. W

Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

Buchan-Hepburn, P G. T

Manningham-Buller, R. E

Sutcliffe, H

Carson, E.

Marshall, D (Bodmin)

Taylor, C. S (Eastbourne)

Challen, C

Medlicott, Brigadier F

Thomas, J. P. L (Hereford)

Clarke, Cm. R. S.

Mellor, Sir J.

Thornton-Kemsley, C N

Conant, Maj. R. J. E

Mahon, A H E

Turton, R. H.

Cooper-Key, E. M.

Morrison, Maj. J G (Salisbury)

Wakefield, Sin W W

Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W S (Cirencester,

Walker-Smith, D.

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F C

Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

Wheatley, Colonel M J). Dorse) E.)

Digby, S. W.

Mullan, Lt. C. H.

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Eccles, D. M

Field, B. (Chester)

White, J. B. (Canterbury)

Foster, J G. (Northwich)

Noble, Comdr. A H P

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Gage, C.

Orr-Ewing, I L

Willoughby de Eresby. Lord

Gates, Maj. E. E

Osborne C

York, C

Hare, Hon. J H (Woodbridge)

Peto, Brig. C H M

Howard, Hon. A

Pickthorn, K

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:—

Hurd, A

Pitman, I J

Mr. Studholmeand

Jennings, R

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

Major Ramsay.

Lancaster, Col. C Li

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Will you accept a Motion for the Adjournment of the Debate because on the second and fourth—

At the moment there is no Question before the House, and, therefore, I could not accept a Motion for the Adjournment. When a Question has been moved, then, of course, I can consider it.

Further to that point of Order. I apologise for having intervened, but I did not think it was fair to let the Minister explain the regulations and then for me to move the Adjournment of the Debate when my reason for moving it was in no way related to any explanation he might give.

Of course, there must be a Question before the House. There is none at the moment.

9.41 p.m.

I beg to move, Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller). Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who themselves studied the Town and Country Planning Act with great care looked to me for a careful explanation of four simple statements in the last regulation before the House, and I hope, therefore, that there will be no ambiguity in the present regulation, which is even more simple than that. If I repeat the offence of making a short speech now, I hope they will not subject me to the kind of reproach levelled at me on an earlier occasion.

The Act provides that in the charging of development charges there shall be certain classes of exemptions. Some of these are done for what are obvious commonsense reasons. If the interior of a building is altered, if roads or sewers are laid, if alterations are made within the curtilage of a house and if alterations are made for forestry and certain other public purposes, its is almost futile to waste time having development charges, and in other cases it would be quite unfair and unjust. Therefore, the Act makes a considerable body of exemptions from the levelling of development charges.

On the other hand, there are a marked number of small developments for which t would be quite unfair and impracticable to start levelling development charges. Under this regulation, which is made under Section 69 (2b) of the Act, a large number of these smaller exemptions are specified and an explanatory memorandum is attached to the end of the docu- ment, which points out that the regulations made under Section 69 (2b) specify the portions of the house or land which are exempt from a development charge. Therefore it makes quite clear the purpose of this regulation.

Now, exemptions under this regulation fall roughly into three sections. The first group gives the same tolerance for buildings and use of land after the appointed day as applies in the Third Schedule to the Act to those existing on the appointed day. The second group gives exemption for operations and uses which will not require individual planning consent. These are given under a general development order under Section 13. For example, there might be the provision of tool sheds, hen houses, fences, gates or walls, and clearly a large number of these small changes taking place in houses and properties would make it a physical impossibility for the operation of the Town and Country Planning Act and would frustrate the whole purpose of the Act. Therefore, these are exempted under a general order in this way. The third group is a series of odd developments—buildings in market gardens, nursery grounds, camping, and so on, and also the displaying of advertisements.

I venture to prophesy that the hon. Members who have studied this regulation will immediately set themselves to find other items which should be exempted in addition to those specified, and I would like to confirm what the Minister of Town and Country Planning said, that none of these regulations are the last word on the subject. Clearly experience will throw up many changes which will require to be embodied in such general exemptions. Indeed, there may be alterations required to some of the regulations which are issued from time to time, but the flexibility of the whole arrangement makes it possible that as experience develops these changes can be made to suit the convenience of the public and to bring the most advantageous working of the Act from the point of view of the community. This regulation, therefore, is one of a series which provide exemptions and, as experience develops, no doubt the whole system will build itself into a complete working harmony which will fit itself into the normal development of the community.

9.48 p.m.

May I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether you will be prepared to accept a Motion to adjourn the Debate, for the following reason? I would refer to the last published Minutes of Proceedings of the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments, Paper 131. On page 4 of that Paper one finds this:

"Resolved: That the Ministry of Town and Country Planning be asked to furnish a memorandum explaining the draft of the Town and Country Planning (Development Charge Exemptions) Regulations, 1948."

The same point will apply to the Scottish regulations. That was resolved at the meeting of the Select Committee on 11th May when the Committee adjourned until 1st June, so it is clear that the Committee has these regulations under consideration, and has asked the Ministry of Town and Country Planning for a memorandum explaining the regulations. Therefore, in my submission, it would be proper for the House to adjourn the Debate upon these regulations until there has been an opportunity for the Select Committee to receive and consider the memorandum for which they have asked and, if they think fit, to report to the House.

I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

9.50 p.m.

I beg to second the Motion.

As I understand it, the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments is charged with certain duties. One of them is to draw the special attention of the House to a Statutory Instrument or other special instrument of that kind if for any special reason its form or purport calls for elucidation. It is no doubt under that heading that the Select Committee has drawn the Ministry's attention to the fact that the regulations which the House is about to consider are not sufficiently explained. In those circumstances it would seem only right and proper that we should wait in respect of these regulations and the equivalent Scottish regulations until the explanatory memorandum for which the Select Committee has asked has been submitted, and until the Select Committee has had an opportunity of considering that memorandum.

Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

The House divided: Ayes, 54; Noes, 220.

Division No. 156.]

AYES.

[9.51 p.m.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

Baldwin, A. E.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

Raikes, H. V.

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Ramsay, Maj. S

Beechen, N. A.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Rayner, Brig R.

Bennett, Sir P

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

Bowen, R.

Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

Sanderson, Sir F

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

MoKie J. H (Galloway)

Scott, Lord W.

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W

Maclay, Hon J. S.

Strauss, H G. (English Universities)

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

Studholme, H. G.

Carson, E.

Maitland, Comdr. J W.

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Chaffin, C.

Manningham-Bulter, R. E

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Clarke, Col R S

Marsden, Capt. A

Turton, R. H

Conant, Maj. R. J. E

Molson, A. H E

Walker-Smith, D.

Cooper-Key, E. M.

Morrison, Maj. J G (Salisbury)

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S (Cirencester)

White, J. B. (Canterbury)

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

MuIlan, Lt. C. H

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Hare, Hon J. H. (Woodbridge)

Pickthorn, K

Hurd, A.

Pitman, I. J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Lancaster. Col. C. G

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

Sir John Mellor and

Mr. Thornton-Kemsley.

NOES.

Adams, Richard (Belham)

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

Levy, B. W.

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Lipson, D. L.

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Fairhurst, F.

Logan, D. G.

Alpass, J. H.

Farthing, W. J

Lyne, A. W.

Awbery, S. S

Fernyhough, E

McAdam, W

Ayrton Gould, Mrs B

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

McAllister, G.

Bacon, Miss A

Foot, M. M.

McGhee, H. G

Baird, J.

Forman, J. C

McGovern, J.

Balfour, A.

Gallagher, W.

McKinlay, A S

Barstow, P. G.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S

McLeavy, F.

Beattie, J. (Belfast, W.)

Gibbins, J.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Bechervaise, A E.

Gibson, C. W

Mallatieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

Beswick, F.

Gilzean, A.

Mann, Mrs. J.

Blackburn, A. R

Glanville, J. E. (Consell)

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Blenkinsop, A.

Gordon-Walker, P. C.

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Blyton, W. R.

Granville, E. (Eye)

Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

Grenfell., D. R

Mayhew, C P

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Grey, C. F.

Mellish, R. J

Bramall, E. A.

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Middleton, Mrs. L

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Lianelly)

Mikardo, Ian

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Guy, W H

Mitchison, G R.

Buchanan, Rt. Hon G

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Moody, A. S.

Burden, T W

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

Morley, R

Burke, W. A

Hannan, W. (MaryhiN)

Morris, P (Swansea, W.)

Carmichael, James

Hardy, E. A.

Moyle, A

Castle, Mrs. B. A

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Mulvey, A

Champion, A. J

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Kingswinford)

Nally, W.

Cocks, F. S.

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Neal, H (Claycross)

Coldrick, W

Hewitson, Capt M

Nichol, Mrs M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Collindridge, F.

Hobson, C. R.

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Colman, Miss G. M.

Holman, P.

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Comyns, Dr. L

Holmes, H E (Hemsworth

O'Brien, T.

Cook, T. F.

Hoy, J.

Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G

Hubbard, T.

Paling, Will T (Dewsbury)

Corlett, Dr. J.

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Palmer, A. M. F

Cove, W. G.

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

Pargiter, G. A

Daines, P.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Parker, J.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Parkin, B. T.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Hutchinson, N. L. (Rusholme)

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Deer, G.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Delargy, H. J

Hynd., J. B. (Attercliffe)

Pearson, A.

Diamond, u

Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

Pearl, T. F.

Debbie, W.

Jay, D. P. T.

Perrin, W.

Dodds, N. N.

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Panoras, S.E.)

Poole, Cecil (Lichfield)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Jenkins, R. H.

Popplewell, E.

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Dumpleton, C. W.

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Durbin, E. F. M

Keenan, W.

Proctor, W. T.

Dye, S

Kenyon, C

Pryde, D. J.

Ede, Rt Hon. J. R.

King, E. M.

Pursey, Cmdr. H

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Lee, F. (HuIme)

Randall, H. E

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

Leonard, W.

Ranger, J.

Rankin, J

Soskice, Sir Frank

West, D. G.

Reeves, J.

Stamford, Westwood,

Rt Hon. J

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Steele, T.

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J. (Edinburgh, E.)

Rhodes, H.

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Rhodes, H.

Richards, R.

Sylvester, G. 0

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

Symonds, A. L

Wilkes, L.

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Wilkins, W. A.

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Royle, C.

Thomas, I. 0. (Wrekin)

Williams, B. J. (Neath)

Scollan, T.

Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Scott-Elliot, W.

Titterington, M. F.

Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

Sharp, Granville

Tolley, L.

Williams, W R (Heston)

Shawcross, Rt. Ho. Sir H (St Helens)

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

Willis, E.

Shinwell, Rt. Hon E

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Shurmer, P

Viant, S P

Wise, Major F J

Silkin, Rt. Hon. L

Wadsworth, G

Woodburn, A

Silverman, J (Erdington)

Walker, G. H.

Yates, V. F

Simmons, C J

Wallace, H. W. (Wallhamstow, E)

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Skeffington, A. M

Watkins, T. E.

Zilliacus, K

Skinnard, F. W

Wilson, W. M

Sorensen, R. W

Weitzman, B.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Wells, W. T (Walsall)

Mr. Snow and

George Wallace.

Original Question again proposed

10.0 p.m.

Nothing that we can do will apparently deter the Secretary of State for Scotland from coming across the Border and seeking to impose new regulations upon Englishmen. I only hope that the Minister of Town and Country Planning will move such regulations as may be applied to Scotland. As he has undertaken the task of moving this regulation, the right hon. Gentleman cannot complain if I ask certain questions about it and its application, bearing in mind the content of the Third Schedule to the Act. At first sight it is a little difficult to reconcile that Schedule of exempted classes with the schedule contained in this provision. I am not sure to what extent they overlap, but there are one or two questions which I will put to the right hon. Gentleman.

I have an unfortunate constituent by the name of Attlee who is living in a converted hen-house. Presumably that comes within the definition of dwelling-house under class 2 (I). If he wants to add to his hen-house to extend his accommodation, is it not the case that by virtue of class 2, he will be liable to pay a development charge? Is it not also the case that, in another place, an assurance was given that houses or dwellings for agricultural workers would, if possible, be exempted?

As I understand this schedule, that undertaking given by Lord Henderson has not been fulfilled by making extensions and improvements to agricultural workers' cottages exempt from payment of development charge. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to explain why that omission has been made in view of the assurance that was given and in view of the desirability of not discouraging improvements to cottages in rural districts. I come to class 4, which concerns the deposit of waste materials. The wording appears to be similar to paragraph 8 of the Third Schedule to the Act. The last part of that paragraph contains the words:

Why is it that the right hon. Gentleman has sought to treat a garage, a stable, a loose box and a coach-house differently from an ancillary building put up in the curtilage of a dwelling-house? Why is he excluding garages? Why have we to pay a development charge for putting up a garage next to one's own house? Why has he discriminated against it? Is it because the right hon. Gentleman dislikes motorists, or is there another reason? I would like to know. And why stables? One can put up a chicken-house or a beehive or anything for pet animals, but if it is for a horse, it is quite wrong to put up a stable. What the position would be if one sought to keep bees in a loose box I do not know, but perhaps the Minister will explain whether, if a loose box or a coach-house is used for keeping bees, it will be included or excluded from class 5. I think he ought to make clear why he discriminates against horses and motor cars in this particular class.

Now I want to say a word or two about class 8. I understand the temporary use of land for any purpose for not more than 28 days; that is clear and simple. But what is meant by the temporary use of land as a parking ground for movable dwellings, circuses or amusements? Does the right hon. Gentleman want to find out where circuses go in the winter-time and then impose a development charge on them? What will be the temporary period—the months of the winter or something shorter or longer than that? I think he might explain the point. Again, does the temporary use of land as a parking ground include parking for the winter?

Further, in class 10, we have a very important exception—roadside milk churn stands are to be exempt. But why not roadside petrol pumps? Is there any particular reason for this discrimination? In class 14, the laying of water pipes by local authorities and statutory undertakers is exempted, but what is the position with regard to water pipes laid by a private water company? Should not they be included? Is there any reason why the private water company, charged with the duty of supplying water in a particular area, should not be exempt? There must be some reasonable explanation.

My last question is why, in class 18 extracting is limited to the extracting of peat. Are there not some fortunate people in this country still able to win and work coal for their own domestic requirements, and is there any good reason why they should be treated differently from those who win and work peat in England? Would the right hon. Gentleman say a word or two about that? If he could satisfy us on these points, I feel sure we should be able to let him have this Order without a very prolonged Debate.

10.9 p.m.

I want to ask the Minister one question. In the introductory paragraph, it is stated that these regulations are made under Section 69 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, and "other powers enabling him in that behalf." I think that is common form, and I do not think there will be any other powers enabling him in that behalf. The bringing in of these words is really an abuse of Parliamentary draftsmanship, and it means that on any occasion when some matter arises, anyone who wishes to disprove the validity of the Minister's action is under the difficulty of finding out which statute enables the Minister to make a declaration, by means of these vague and vexatious words. Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there are any other powers enabling him to do that, besides those of Section 69 of the Town and Country Planning Act?

10.11 p.m.

So far as I know there are none, but the hon. Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson) has given the answer himself; it is common form. If it is common form, I do not see why he should describe it as an abuse, unless common forms are abuses. Anyway, that is the answer

So far as I know, the only Section of the Act under which these regulations are made is Section 69. The hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) asked me a number of questions, and quite frankly I cannot answer them all without notice. I can, however, answer some of them. As to the others, all his questions were really directed to the point as to why certain things were exempt; if A was exempt why was not B exempt? I do not pretend that we have thought of every single thing which ought to be exempt, and this is not the last regulation that will be made providing for exemptions. All I can say is that we have consulted with every possible authority or body which might give us guidance in these exemptions, and they have given us guidance, and we collected together a list of exemptions which, to the best of our belief, was comprehensive. If the hon. and learned Gentleman, with his ingenuity, can think of any others which ought to be exempt, we shall be only too glad to consider them, and in particular we shall consider those which he has already suggested.

I want to deal with one or two which I think I can answer straight away. In two cases, I think, he asked about the extension of dwelling-houses. One question was: why was not a greenhouse exempt?

Well, whether it was exempt. He asked why was not a garage, a stable or a loose box exempt: why was I discriminating against them? He even suggested that I had some kind of hostility to the equine race. The answer is that one may do all these things up to the limit of 10 per cent. over and above the existing area, or 1,75o feet, without development charge. One is exempt up to that. Beyond that, one is liable to development charges.

I do not want to delay the proceedings, but my point was why under class 5 we should single out these particular classes and exclude others mentioned in class 5. Apparently, if one builds a big house for a goat, one does not have to pay development charges, but on a stable to shelter one's pony one does have to pay.

I imagine the answer is that if we exempt a garage or stable, as such, it might mean that we were exempting more than we want to exempt. After all, garages sometimes have residential accommodation above them. The exemption of a garage, simply under the description of a garage, might mean doing something much more than exempting a garage itself. The same thing applies to the term "stable "; under the term "stable" we may be including something of a very much more general interest than a stable. In fact, if a person wants to build a garage, in normal cases he will be able to do it well within the permitted increase. Consequently, he will not be liable for development charge.

It would appear from the wording that a squash court would be exempt from development charge. It seems rather peculiar that that should be so, when the other things are not. It would appear also that a billiards room would be exempt.

They are all treated alike. We are not giving any preference to billiards rooms. I think that if the hon. Gentleman will carefully read the regulation, he will find they are treated alike. If it comes within the permitted increase, there is no development charge.

My point is a simple one. Why should a squash court and a billiard room, for example, be exempt whereas garages, stables, etc., are not? That is the point.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell me where a squash court is referred to in these regulations?

Certain things are expressly excluded from the exemption. Those things which are not expressly excluded and which come within the definition are included in the exemption. Two things which I suggest are, therefore, included are the two things I mentioned. I do not object to their being included in the exemption. I merely wonder why they should be distinguished from garages, stables, looseboxes or coach-houses.

May I draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the words? They are.

"The erection, construction or placing and the maintenance, improvement or other alteration … required for a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling-house."

Such are exempt. That would include a squash court.

I do not know. I should not like to express an opinion as to whether, under this wording, a squash court or a billiard room would be excluded. My own view—it is as good as that of anybody else, and no better—is that it would come within the terms of the permitted increase. If a man built an immense billiards hall and said that that was incidental to the enjoyment of his house, and expected to be free of development charge, I think he would be disappointed; or if he put up numbers of squash courts. But certainly an individual squash court or a small billiards room would not be liable for development charge, any more than a normal garage would.

The other point with which I would like to deal is that of the question of the extension or improvement of the agricultural worker's cottage. We all agree that there was an assurance given that that would not be subject Lo development charge. We adhere to that undertaking. I agree that it is not expressly exempt in the regulation. The reason is, I am advised, that one cannot exempt a building purely in relation to its use and so long as it is used for a specific purpose. The intention is to exempt agricultural workers' cottages so long as they are used as agricultural workers' cottages. However, if the hon. and learned Gentleman wishes to buy one of these agricultural cottages and use it as a weekend resort, he ought to be and will be subject to development charge, when he obtains that cottage. It was merely a difficulty of wording in the exemption regulation which forced us to leave agricultural cottages out of this regulation. It is intended—and I hereby give the House this undertaking—that I shall direct the Central Land Board to exclude extensions and improvements of agricultural workers' cottages so long as they are used for that purpose.

As to roadside milk churns—why not petrol pumps? I imagine that the hon. and learned Gentleman put that merely from the point of view of humour, because they are very different things. On the other points that have been made, I can give him an assurance that in so far as he is claiming that there should be further exemptions those claims will certainly be looked at. As I have said, I do not imagine for a moment that this is the last list, but it is the best that we have been able to do after the fullest possible consultation, and if we find that at any time further regulations are needed for the purpose of providing additional exemptions, further regulations will be made.

Question put, and agreed to

Resolved:

"That the Town and Country Planning (Development Charge Exemptions) Regulations, 1948, dated 29th April, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 29th April, be approved."

10.20 p.m.

I beg to move,

"That the Town and Country Planning (Development Charge) (Scotland) Regulations, 1948, made by the Secretary of State for Scotland under the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act, 1947, a copy of which Regulations was presented on 29th April, be approved."

I have already introduced similar regulations in regard to England and Wales, and I gather that hon. Members opposite are quite satisfied now with the lessons given by my right hon. Friend in regard to all the details of these four orders and, therefore, I do not propose to elucidate them any further.

10.21 p.m.

I need only add that we are not in the least convinced by the argument we have heard that the order is a good one. To the first Scottish order our objections remain, but we do not propose to register our objections again, having registered them already once in a Division.

Question put, and agreed to.

I beg to move,

"That the Town and Country Planning (Development Charge Exceptions) (Scotland) Regulations, 1948, made by the Secretary of State for Scotland under the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act, 1947, a copy of which Regulations was presented on 7th May, be approved."

As this has been explained with regard to England and Wales, I formally move the order relating to Scotland.

Question put, and agreed to

Yugoslav Refugees (Surrender)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Popplewell.]

10.23 p.m.

Since we have only half-an-hour for this Debate, and since I understand that the Minister who is to reply desires to do so with some fullness, I hope to limit myself to 15 minutes. It will not be supposed that in that time it is possible to say everything that can usefully be said about the subject which I wish specially to bring to the attention of the House. It may be divided into two. First, the general question of Yugoslavs who are in British custody; what has been, what is being done and what ought to be done about sifting those Yugoslavs who are in British custody, and deciding who, if any of them, ought to be surrendered to the Tito régime.

That is the general question which I wish to raise, and the particular case to which I desire to allude in some detail is the case of one called Colonel Cus who, rather exceptionally, I believe, is accused of collaboration only, because it has been alleged officially that in most of these cases the persons surrendered or the persons being considered for surrender are persons against whom there are heavy charges of what we might call common law crime and not only charges of collaboration. In the particular case of Colonel Cus, I understand from the Foreign Office—and I may be corrected if I have misunderstood or if there is any new information—that the charge was of collaboration only.

This general question and the particular question of Colonel Cus would at any other time seem very exciting questions. It is only because of the almost intolerable and, indeed, inconceivable amount of human misery which there now is in the world, and the as yet almost wholly unappreciated reduction in our standards of decency and fair dealing, that we do not find this matter almost intolerably exciting. It is in that sense a small drop in the price which we are paying for the mistakes which we, and others, have made during the last generation. Nevertheless, it is a very great question indeed.

Is there with Yugoslavia as governed at present such an identity of legal concepts, and such a reciprocity of judicial intentions, between us and them, between our Government and theirs, is there so high a degree of reciprocity in those matters, that we ought now still to be treating as an international obligation the handing over of these persons? I think we do well to remind ourselves at the beginning that the Croat people believe—and I think this will not be officially denied—that something like 100,000 of their men of military age handed over by us were massacred by Tito early in 1945, before General Alexander, as he then was, on his own initiative forebade any more wholesale surrenders. It is with that background that we should be excited about General "Snooks" or General "Sproggins" if we feared that he was being, or was about to be, used unjustly, that we should be excited if we had at the backs of our minds the memory of massacres of perhaps 100,000 young soldiers. And if we wish to understand at all what is thought about these things on the other side of the Adriatic, we must try to remember back to 1945. Most of us have forgotten most of that now. I am bound to say that I, myself, have forgotten most of it, and would not stand up to two minutes' cross-examination.

I want to ask, in this business of handing over Yugoslavs who are alleged by the Tito regime to have committed such crimes that our international obligations compel us to hand them over, how confident is the Foreign Office, honestly, that we do not make errors of fact?—because I have a good deal of, I will not say evidence because persons in my position can hardly have very much of evidence in the strict sense, but a good deal of what in Parliamentary Debate is loosely called evidence that there have been great errors, sometimes quite recently; for instance, errors of identification of people handed over because they had the same or a similar name, when they were not at all the person who was wanted, and other errors of that sort. I could give, and have given, the Minister a short and rough list of some such suggestions. I could give him a longer list, with which I was supplied only very recently. How sure are they really? I am perfectly certain that there is a very high percentage of error.

I remember during the last war—if I may be permitted to give this illustration—having had myself in the previous one experience in aeroplanes, I was always told, "This time they are being frightfully, frightfully careful about the number of German aeroplanes claimed to have been brought down," and the same with submarines; and I always used to say," I will bet you anything you like that within three or four years of the war being over we shall find they are making far more errors in their estimates of these things than any one would admit now." I would make the same bet about this. And unless the Foreign Office is quite, quite certain, that everybody holding responsibility in this matter would gladly take up that bet with his own political fortune, or anything else he has got, it is high time this thing was thought of again.

My information is that the present policy is to go on as we have been going on until all Yugoslavs now in our custody have been through this system of sifting. Is it not much too late to be doing that? Ought we not now, at any rate, to fix a date and say that beyond that date anybody who lives up to that time might be certain he is not going to be handed over? So long as these siftings are going on, it is quite impossible to persuade these people that they are not in danger of being handed over. It is to most people, if they know at all, astonishing still to find, still this business of handing over people, in most cases to be executed or sentenced to long and indefinite terms of imprisonment.

I can never get over the surprising ease with which I find people here knowing so easily who was good or bad, and on which side, for instance, in the Resistance in France. Anybody who knows anything about France knows that it is almost impossibly difficult to be certain on which side anyone about whom there is doubt, really was. It was the obvious tactics for members of the Resistance to be, if they could, also employed by the Gestapo, and vice versa : where that happened, it is almost infinitely difficult to be sure of guilt or innocence in France. And if it is difficult in France, it is, to venture on a mathematical absurdity, almost infinity multiplied by infinity, when it comes to Yugoslavia, where there were German and Italian armies, British troops, Austrians, Croats, Slovenes and Serbs, with bitter nationalisms and bitter factions, all intermingled in such a way that at any time it was almost impossible to be certain of who stood on which side from our point of view, or juridically.

My next question is: Do we know what happens to these people after we have handed them over? So far, in answer to my questions, both on paper and orally, the answer has been, "No, we do not." And what is more, the Foreign Office has apparently been content to accept the answer of the Yugoslav Government that they are under no duty to tell us what happens. Ministers cannot have it both ways. Either this is an ordinary civilised country, with which we can have ordinary civilised relations and to which we are under international obligation to hand over alleged criminals. If you take that line, then it cannot be difficult to follow up and see what happens to those handed over. Were they tried, and convicted or acquitted? Alternatively, if the Foreign Office does not know and cannot know what has been happening to these men during the last three years, it is evidence of a need long overdue to stop this pretence that they are a civilised, amicable, ordinary Power, like any other to whom we are under international obligation to hand over those whom they accuse of being criminals.

The hon. Gentleman opposite knows about Colonel Cus. If it had been anybody but the British Foreign Office who had treated me as I have been treated in this correspondence about Colonel Cus, and I had shown this correspondence to my right hon. Friends, they would have agreed that I had been deliberately cheated, most deliberately cheated. I do not say that has been intended either by the Minister or his officials, but I do say that anyone to whom I showed the correspondence, thinking it came from some other Foreign Office, would say that this was deliberate cheating. There were promises to me, as to others, that as soon as a decision was taken in the Cus case, we should be told forthwith. We were not told for weeks, and when told we were told on letters which had been written I think weeks before they were sent to us and the dates scratched out and the dates on which the letters were posted inserted instead. It is no use the hon. Gentleman shaking his head. It was a clear promise. It is very unfair for the right hon. Gentleman to shake his head on points of fact when I have only fifteen minutes. It was a clear promise given to me.

Whether or not I would or could have done anything with it when I got it, that was the promise. It was, in fact, delayed for weeks. It is plain that it could have been given to me earlier from the fact that the letter was written earlier, and the date had to be altered. Of that there is no doubt. The argument that that resulted from administrative pressure is, I venture to say, nonsense. There was more administration involved in what was done than there would have been in sending the letter as soon as it was dictated. The argument of administrative pressure has always been the tyrant's argument and, what is more, the argument of the fumbling tyrant. And if you are going to alter dates, you ought to learn to do it so that the recipient of the letter cannot spot it and see what the original date was. That is all I have to say now on the case of Cus, but I am quite prepared to discuss this at any length with anyone. I have been most unfairly treated in the matter.

The point I come to now is this business of prima facie evidence. What is prima facie evidence? As I understand it from what I remember of my legal reading in English law, it means such evidence that a court may reasonably—may, not must—convict on it if it be uncontradicted. That is a fairly clear and exact standard. That I understand. But once you start saying that the courts to whom we are going to hand over these people are not courts which we wholly trust, and therefore we take particular care, I do not see where you are going to stop. You at once involve yourself practically in saying that when we hand over people they are guilty. You not only make it practically certain that they will be killed, but you give a death warrant to the chap on the other side to kill them. I cannot understand how, short of that, this distinction can be maintained.

There is a great deal that can be said in parallel illustration about others—about Poles particularly—some of them in this country, where it is a matter for the Home Office, and is not relevant to our special business tonight. But I hope I have said enough. No one can begin to expound, let alone debate, all of this topic in half-an-hour. All I hope to do is to persuade the hon. Gentleman, and the House that for the conscience of the country it is incumbent upon the House to decide whether there should not soon be a full Debate on this policy and alternative policies, and on administration and alternative methods of administration.

10.38 p.m.

This admittedly is a very difficult problem. Before replying specifically to the speech of the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn), may I put before the House some of the facts upon which a judgment has to be based? When the war was ending, tens of thousands of Yugoslavs fled from Yugoslavia with the retreating German army. Unlike the quislings of some other countries, those that were quislings had a geographical opportunity to escape. Among these Yugoslavs, many of whom were innocent, were large numbers of guilty men, who, in Western Austria and Northern Italy, found themselves the responsibility of the occupying forces of the United States and ourselves. Of these tens of thousands of people many were innocent, but many were guilty of atrocious crimes and of the worst examples of treason against Yugoslavia.

But yes—this is my Adjournment, not that of hon. Members opposite. The question I want to put is, treason against which Yugoslavia? Upon what date did the Tito Yugoslavia become a regime against which treason was possible?

I will at a later stage give some instances of the type of charges with which these men are charged, but I wish to give the non-controversial and non-contentious part of my speech without being interrupted. On 29th March, 1945, the Coalition Government undertook the obligation, in a note sent to the Yugoslav Government, to hand over people against whom there was a prima facie case of treachery involving giving assistance to the enemy. This obligation was reaffirmed in a note to the Yugoslav Government in April, 1947, and confirmed by a United Nations resolution passed at the General Assembly in the autumn of last year.

Relying on this undertaking, the Yugoslav Government have since demanded the surrender of 1,800 alleged traitors and quislings. This figure was up to 8th November of last year. By agreement the Yugoslav Government have ceased demanding the surrender of alleged quislings from us. Some 400 of these people have been found and arrested by us, and of these over 30o have been released owing to the failure of the Yugoslav Government to establish a prima facie case against them. Thirty-two remaining cases have still to be decided. Since the end of the war, therefore, 49 Yugoslavs have been handed back to Yugoslavia, the great majority of them in the immediate post-war period. Those are the simple facts of the situation.

The hon. Member referred to the procedure adopted. He asks how we can be sure that no errors of fact are made in establishing prima facie cases. The procedure is as follows: if a suspected person has been arrested, he is interrogated solely for identification. When identity has been established he is interrogated by a British expert in Yugoslav affairs who asks him to account for his wartime activities. Wherever a doubt exists, the man is invariably given the benefit of the doubt. He is told the Yugoslav charge against him and he is given every opportunity of defending himself. If a prima facie case is not established, the man is immediately released. If a prima facie case is established the whole of the papers are submitted to the Foreign Office over here, where they are once again examined by experts in Yugoslav affairs and by the legal advisers of the Foreign Office. Once again the benefit of the doubt, where it exists, goes to the man concerned. Then the final decision is taken as to whether or not the man should be handed back. I can assure the House that nothing is spared in the way of manpower, time, trouble or expense to see that, to the utmost possible extent, justice is done in every possible case.

I was pressed about the meaning of a prima facie case. I was criticised for stating in the House that the fact that a fair trial was not available to these men who were being returned to Yugoslavia led us to take special care to make sure that a prima facie case had been established. I cannot go further than saying this. I have been incited by hon. Members opposite to go further and make a statement about the probability or certainty of these men's guilt. I am asked to assure the House that we have never sent back to Yugoslavia a man who was not guilty. As one hon. Member pointed out, that would prejudice the trials of the men who have returned to Yugoslavia. It may be argued that these men have not a great chance when they get back to Yugoslavia and stand their trial, but if they have a slender chance it would be wrong and most improper of me to go beyond saying what I have said and to make speculations or statements about the probability of guilt. I do not propose to do so. For the same reason, I will not enter into the merits or demerits of the case of Colonel Cus. It would be im- proper even if I had had sufficient notice to look up the details.

That I cannot have. It is the most outrageous thing—not sufficient notice. The hon. Gentleman knows that correspondence has passed between us for months, and the solicitors have been writing for years. I have letters from him covering the last six months at least on this subject, and I gave notice at least six weeks ago that I would raise the matter today.

If the hon. Member had given notice that he was going to raise the question of Colonel Cus, I would have had details. I apologise. I understood that he was to speak on the subject of the surrender of Yugoslavs

If the hon. Gentleman says he did not say that the date was deliberately changed, then again I withdraw.

The hon. Gentleman should make up his mind whether he is accusing me of saying that the date was changed or that it was falsified.

The import of the hon. Gentleman's remarks seemed to suggest it, but if I was wrong, again I withdraw it. I leave it to the House to judge, but if I am wrong, I withdraw. I wish to get on to bigger subjects. I admit freely the difficulty of this position. I agree that there is a great deal that is unprecedented in the problems with which we are faced, and something unusual about the means we have to undertake to overcome them. All I ask the House to consider is the alternative to the procedure we have had to adopt. Our obligations are clear. Is it suggested that we should not send these men back to Yugoslavia? Clearly, in my view, that course would not be possible. It is impossible because it is a breach of our written obligations, and it is impossible because it is simply not justice to refuse to send any of these men back. For example, it would not be justice to refuse to send back Pavelic, whose career is well-known to hon. Members, if he fell into our hands; it would be wrong to deny to the Yugoslav Government the right to call that man to account.

The hon. Gentleman says "make a short list." Then there must an opportunity of sending some people back. He cannot have it both ways. Is he criticising the Government for sending them back or for not sending them back? The Government are conducting themselves properly in sending certain of these men back. To refuse to send back a man like Pavelic and to pardon him and set him free, which would be the only alternative, would be a breach of our undertakings, impossible to justify to world opinion. It would be a breach of ordinary elementary justice. Pavelic is charged with crimes for which, in this country, people like William Joyce were executed. In these circumstances, the British Government would have no right to refuse to extradite him if a prima facie case were established against him.

There is no third alternative between the policy of the Government on the one hand, and the policy of surrendering no one on the other. It is not even possible to try them in this country. Their crimes were committed in Yugoslavia against the laws of Yugoslavia. They have committed no offence against British law, and they cannot be tried in a British court; they have committed no international crime, and they cannot be tried in an international court. There is only one place, I think, where they can be tried, and that is Yugoslavia. There is only one authority which can try them, and that is the Yugoslav Government.

For these reasons, there is no alternative to His Majesty's Government's policy as carried out at the moment. We have to conduct that policy and carry it out with meticulous care and conscientiousness. I agree with the hon. Member on that. Very big issues are involved—issues of life and liberty—and there can be no excuse for not taking the utmost care to see that justice is done as far as is humanly possible in individual cases.

I entirely agree that it is not enough to try to reassure Yugoslav displaced persons by saying that only one or two persons will be sent back. I agree that there is great mental anxiety among many displaced persons who think that they might be sent back. But we are nearing the end of the first stage of this problem. As I have said, there are 32 cases left in which individuals asked for by the Yugoslav Government have been found and arrested, and when these have been dealt with a new stage will be reached. I am not at present in a position to make a statement, but I will do so as soon as possible. I do not deny the anxieties and the difficulties of this problem, but I do not accept the implication of the hon. Member that we are in the least indifferent. We recognise these high issues; we have given great thought to them, and searched our consciences hard. We are trying each case with meticulous care, and in the difficult and unusual circumstances the results we are achieving are right and just.

The hon. Gentleman has said that he always gives the wanted man the benefit of the doubt in these cases. My question to him is, does that mean doubt whether there is a prima facie case, or doubt of the man's guilt of the crime with which he is charged?

The hon. and learned Gentleman is again asking me to commit myself to a statement about the degree or probability of guilt.

No; I asked which doubt was meant; doubt as to a prima facie case, or doubt whether the man is guilty of the crime with which he is charged.

We take special care to see that a prima facie case exists. Therefore, our answer is that we allow ourselves to be in no doubt about the existence of a prima facie case. I beg hon. Gentlemen who may at any time have been—

The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock and the Debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Seven Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.