Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 451: debated on Wednesday 9 June 1948

House of Commons

Wednesday, June 9, 1948

The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Private Business

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND TRUST (AMENDMENT) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL

WILLIAM BROWN NIMMO CHARITABLE TRUST (AMENDMENT) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL

Considered; to be read the Third time Tomorrow.

DARLINGTON CORPORATION TROLLEY VEHICLES (ADDITIONAL ROUTES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (REDCAR) BILL

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (SWANAGE) BILL

PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL

Read a Second time, and committed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Civil Aviation

Services (West Country and Cornwall)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation when he now proposes to start an air service to the West Country and Cornwall.

Regular air services to the West Country and Cornwall are not included in British European Airways programme for the current year 1948–49, and I cannot give any indication when they will be started.

May I ask the Minister two questions? First, is he aware that, during the passage of the Civil Aviation Bill, supporters of the Government said that part of the programme would be an immediate service between Plymouth and London; and, secondly, if there is no intention of putting on that service, will the Ministry allow private enterprise to do so?

In reply to the first part of the Question, I am not personally aware of the facts which the hon. Member has mentioned. Regarding the second part, the route from Cornwall to London would be a trunk route which would be outside the present policy of giving associate agreements in regard to feeder services.

Does the Minister realise that Devon is a great agricultural centre, has he heard that it is a very important tourist centre, and does he realise that Devon is at present entirely off the air map? Moreover, in view of the fact that Devon hon. Members are, perhaps, the hardest worked group of hon. Members, will he give instructions to the Fees Office so that Devon hon. Members may be allowed to charter aeroplanes on the blue form?

In view of the exceptionally hard work done by the Cornish hon. Members, and their anxiety to get to Cornwall as soon as possible, can the Minister assure us that, in the meanwhile, attention is being paid to safety precautions so that the line may be instituted as soon as possible?

Did I understand the Minister to say that this is a trunk service and, therefore, did not come under the same arrangements as those which have been announced in the Press? If that is the case, would he consider making a statement on this matter, because there is a great deal of confusion?

Hotel, Prestwick Airport

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation when it is proposed to take over the hotel at Prestwick airport.

It has yet to be decided on what permanent basis this Government-owned hotel will be run. The present arrangement comes to an end on 31st March, 1949.

Is the purpose of taking over this hotel to add to the £10 million loss already sustained by civil aviation?

Would it not be better for the Ministry to open the Blackburn factory and start building aeroplanes again?

When we were discussing the Civil Aviation Bill did not the hon. Gentleman give a definite assurance that such hotels would be taken over as quickly as possible?

This hotel has been taken over in respect of ownership. As to the running of the hotel, the present arrangement comes to an end on 31st March, 1949, when new arrangements will be made.

Landing Fees

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation on what grounds the decision has been taken to give more advantageous terms for landing fees to Western Airways and Cambrian Air Services on the Weston-Cardiff service, than were charged to B.E.A.C.; and to what extent this principle is to be followed on any other internal air routes.

The revised scale of landing fees introduced on 1st May, 1948, provides for a system of rebates for all aircraft operating scheduled internal air services of stage lengths up to 115 miles.

If, as has been announced, private companies are to run internal routes instead of B.E.A.C., does that mean that there has been a major change in policy? It appears to be contrary to the provisions of the Civil Aviation Act. Could my hon. Friend make a statement to the House, in view of the apparent change in policy?

There is no change in policy except that there is a change in the prices charged. The length and frequency of the routes make the incidence of landing fees different from that applying to long journeys. These new scales of fees are applied to every scheduled operator, whether it is the Corporation or a charter company running under an associate agreement.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that he has not really answered my question? I am asking about the change in policy arising from the fact that lines previously operated by B.E.A.C. are being handed over to private companies.

On feeder services, which it is not possible for the Corporation to run, the Minister has approved the policy of associate agreements.

When this line was given up by B.E.A.C. ostensibly on the ground that it was not profitable, they must have known that the reduction in fees which was sufficient to turn the loss into a profit was about to come into effect. Why was the line given up at the moment when the charges were being changed and could have enabled the Corporation to make a profit?

The reductions in these charges would not in themselves have made the line profitable for the Corporation.

Is there any truth in the suggestion that a high executive of B.O.A.C. is also a director of one of these companies?

No, Sir. It is not true to say that he is a director of one of these companies. I believe it is true that he has a financial interest in a company, but he is in no way associated with its management.

Germany

Requisitioned Houses (Gardens)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether arrangements can be made so that the gardens of 36 houses in Neumuenster recently requisitioned from German owners may be made available for the production of vegetables by their German owners.

No houses have been requisitioned in Neumunster since June, 1947, but 36 houses were recently requisitioned in Schleswig. While works services are in progress on these houses, the German owners are cultivating the gardens, and they will be entitled to the produce sown by themselves. In a few weeks' time the houses will be occupied by British families, who will decide whether they intend to cultivate the gardens, or whether to relinquish them wholly or in part for the production of vegetables by their German owners.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the information he has given is quite contrary to that which has reached me, namely, that the owners of these houses complain that they cannot arrive at any arrangement with the Control Commission to continue the use of the gardens, in spite of the fact that it is one of the Control Commission's regulations that they should be allowed to do so? These people could put their gardens to good use in producing vegetables and fruit.

If my hon. Friend will give me the information which has reached him, I will check it with the information which has reached me.

Coal Production

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the reasons for the decline in coal production in the British zone of Germany since early March; to what extent lack of food incentives, including meat, have contributed; and what remedial action is contemplated.

The chief factors responsible for the decline in German coal production are seasonal voluntary absenteeism and an increase in technical breakdowns as a result of wear and tear of equipment which it has not been possible to make good. There have also been difficulties in getting supplies of food, and particularly bacon, which the miners have wished to buy with the foreign exchange that is available to them under the incentive schemes, but the position in this respect has recently improved and I believe that the effect of this on output is now comparatively unimportant.

At the instigation of the United Kingdom-United States Coal Control Group, the German Mine Management are putting in hand various technical measures to improve labour efficiency. A special incentive in the form of extra meat and fat, based on individual mine targets, is being offered during June, and the incentive schemes are being revised in order to make them more easily understood by the miners and in order to make the benefits correspond more closely with greater individual effort.

Control Commission Officials

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the reason for the refusal of his Department to communicate the where abouts of members of the Control Commission in Germany to their wives and next of kin; what elements of secrecy enter into the duties of these officials; and why such secrecy is under present conditions either necessary or desirable.

No element of secrecy enters into either the duties or the whereabouts of members of the Control Commission for Germany. But it is a basic principle of Government Service, that a department does not disclose to a wife, or to any other inquirer, the whereabouts of an employee if the employee himself has withheld it; and this principle applies equally to members of the Control Commission.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the inconvenience and hardship which is caused to wives through being unable to know anything of their husbands' whereabouts or doings? Will he reconsider his attitude with a view to ensuring that these officials shall be placed on the same footing as private individuals in this respect?

This is not a decision of the Foreign Office. This rule applies to the whole of the Civil Service, and we do not give the address of a civil servant to his wife or to anyone else. If any document is sent for forwarding, we forward it. We really must leave these private relations between man and wife alone. I have enough troubles as it is.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many retired and ex-R.A.F. officers are now holding the post of Kreis resident officers in the British Control Commission in Germany; and how many retired Army and Naval officers are employed in such positions.

There are 12 retired and ex-Royal Air Force officers and 77 retired and ex-Army and Naval officers holding the post of Kreis Resident Officer in the Control Commission for Germany.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the percentage of Royal Air Force officers who have been found redundant in recent months is considerably higher than the percentage of Army officers, and that there is a feeling among Royal Air Force officers that there is very unfair discrimination? Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this and make certain that there is no such discrimination?

I have looked into the question. I will keep a careful watch on it, but whenever the question of redundancy arises nearly everybody has a grievance. It is a difficult matter, but I will watch it closely.

Scientific Instruments

Shepherd asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the comparison between the permitted level for the manufacture of scientific instruments in Germany, at the present time and in 1936, expressed in terms of volume.

No level has been fixed for the manufacture of scientific instruments as such. They are produced by the fine mechanics and optics group of industries. Therefore, no separate figures on which to base an exact comparison are available. However, sufficient capacity will be retained in the fine mechanics and optics group in the Bizonal Area to produce 138 per cent, by value of the production in 1936. The figures are 248·7 million Reichsmarks for retained capacity and 180 million Reichsmarks for 1936 production.

Is the Foreign Secretary able to state the comparison in terms of volume, since the actual rate of exchange is so misleading?

If the hon. Member will put a Question down I will obtain the actual figures so far as it is possible to do so.

Is this arbitrary yardstick really based on the volume of 1936, or a purely fictitious value in relation to the value of the mark today? It does not make any sense.

We have had to increase the volume of production, because owing to the removal of the works from Eastern Germany as reparations to the Soviet, we have had to provide for increased manufacture in this field in the Western zone. Prior to the war a lot of this work was done in the Eastern area.

Six-Power Conference

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will now make a statement on the outcome of the Six-Power Conference on Germany.

I would ask the hon. Member to await the statement which I shall make on this subject after Questions today.

Refugee Camps

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the extent of his responsibility for the camp or camps in Germany accommodating political refugees; and whether he will take action to secure an improvement in quality and quantity of the food supplied therein and the general conditions.

Refugees who are eligible for care and maintenance under the regulations of the Preparatory Commission of the International Refugee Organisation are housed in camps, administered by the Control Commission for Germany on behalf of the Organisation, which include all categories of refugees. Conditions in these camps are under constant review.

Will my right hon. Friend say whether he has any kind of responsibility for the Frankfurt Camp, and, in view of the large number of Czech refugees, could he do anything to secure an improvement in their conditions?

No, we have no responsibility for the camp at Frankfurt, but in our zone the answer is, "Yes."

Is it not a fact that in the British zone of Germany there is a large number of refugees from Czechoslovakia in German camps who, according to my information, are receiving about 600 calories a day by way of diet?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will consult the U.S. Government with a view to the Czechoslavak refugees in Germany being admitted to I.R.O. camps in order to spare them the humiliation of having to spend long periods in German camps on very meagre rations and under German supervision.

We are already in touch with the United States Government on the general question of Czech refugees, which was also discussed recently at Geneva with the Secretariat of the Preparatory Commission of the International Refugee Organisation and with representatives of the other occupying Powers. Czech refugees in the British zone of Germany are not under German supervision. They are in camps administered by the zonal authorities on behalf of the International Refugee Organisation and receive the same basic rations as other eligible refugees.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there are now some 10,000 Czechoslovak refugees in the British and the American zones of Germany, and that, according to recent arrivals in this country, they are housed in German staffed camps where, according to today's Press, the conditions of life and the food position are reminiscent of Nazi concentration camps? In view of the great feeling about this, will my right hon. Friend look into the matter?

I assure my hon. Friend that those statements are quite incorrect so far as the British zone is concerned. I cannot accept responsibility for what happens in any other zone. The facts that I have given in my answer are correct.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that quite a number of these Czechs fled from their country because they were being persecuted either on account of the fact that they served with His Majesty's Forces in the war or because they married British girls, and that some of their wives have come out in front of them, and have great anxiety about the treatment they are having in the American zone?

I really cannot deal with the American zone. I must deal with the zone for which I am responsible. I must tell the House we have been most generous in dealing with this problem.

Would it not be possible in a perfectly friendly way to make representations to the American authorities with regard to these assumptions?

Returned Prisoners of War (Coffee)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that German prisoners of war returning from England to the French zone in Germany are being deprived by the French police of coffee which they were permitted to take home with them; and whether he will make representations to the French Government to have this practice stopped.

The regulations about the quantity of coffee which may be taken out of the United Kingdom by persons going overseas are a matter for His Majesty's Government, the regulations about the quantity which may be taken into the French zone of Germany are the concern of the French occupation authorities. I am inquiring about the regulations in force in the French zone and will inform my hon. Friend in due course.

When considering the result of this inquiry, would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the coffee referred to in my Question was actually sanctioned by the authorities at this end? Surely it is quite villainous for the French police to take it away when probably all they will do is to put it on the black market?

Detained German

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement on the kidnapping and illegal detention of Igor Klein, a German employee of the British Control Commission.

Is there any connection between the case of Igor Klein and the case of Lieut.-Colonel Tassoev?

War Crimes (Detained Persons)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many persons listed as serious war criminals, for whom extradition has been asked, remain in custody in this country and in the British zone of Germany, respectively.

Palestine

State of Israel (Recognition)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representations have been made by His Majesty's Government to other countries regarding the recognition or non-recognition of the State of Israel, specifying the countries concerned and the dates in each case when the subject was first broached and the replies thereto.

No representations have been made by His Majesty's Government to other countries. The attitude of His Majesty's Government has been explained to several governments, usually in response to their inquiries.

Is the Foreign Secretary aware that during the last two weeks headlines have appeared in French newspapers to the effect that he has made representations to the French Government regarding the non-recognition of the State of Israel?

I am not responsible for what appears in newspaper headlines. I have given the answer to the Question.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state how it is possible to recognise a State that does not exist?

Is the intention of the Government not to recognise the State of Israel?

There is a Question on the Order Paper which raises that point and which I will answer later.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why, in view of his declaration of 11th December, 1947, that His Majesty's Government accepted the decision of the United Nations General Assembly regarding Palestine, he has hitherto withheld recognition from the Jewish State of Israel set up in accordance with that decision.

His Majesty's Government do not consider that the recommendations voted by the General Assembly on 29th November, 1947, can be invoked as imposing a legal obligation to recognise the Jewish State set up on 14th May. The resolution of 29th November instructed the United Nations Commission to carry out a detailed plan culminating in the establishment of a Jewish and an Arab State with Economic Union. Practically no part of this plan was executed. By its later resolution of 14th May, the General Assembly "relieved the Palestine Commission from the further exercise of its responsibilities." In these circumstances His Majesty's Government will judge the Jewish State's case for recognition on its own merits according to the normal criteria of international law.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in replies given last week both he and the Under-Secretary indicated that Jews and Arabs in Palestine were acting in accordance with the decision of the United Nations; and in view of the fact that the provisional Government of Israel is not claiming any frontiers other than those allotted to it by the United Nations, will he look into this matter again and see whether he cannot fall into line with world opinion?

I think it is essential that my hon. Friend, before quoting what I said last week, should carefully read HANSARD and should quote me correctly.

Government

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what body of persons is at present recognised by His Majesty's Government as the de jure Government of Palestine.

In that case will the Foreign Secretary say what is the real state of our relations with Arabs and Jews in Palestine at the moment, and under what conditions he is prepared to recognise the de facto Arab and Jewish Governments existing in Palestine?

Jerusalem (Anglo-Transjordan Treaty)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the attack by the Transjordan Legion on Jersusalem, intended by the U.N.O. resolution to be an independent State, he will review His Majesty's Government's obligations arising from the Anglo-Trans-jordan Treaty of Alliance, 15th March, 1948, in accordance with the terms of Article 4 of that Treaty.

I am not aware of any United Nations resolution purporting to set up an independent State for Jerusalem. It was intended that a special provisional regime for Jerusalem should be set up, but this came to nothing. The Arab Legion did not start the fighting at Jerusalem. Events at Jerusalem do not, therefore, oblige His Majesty's Government to review their obligations to the Transjordan Government. The Security Council cease-fire resolution has, however, created a new situation and In deference to that resolution, His Majesty's Government have suspended until the end of the ceasefire, the deliveries of arms which, under the treaty, they should make to the Transjordan Government.

Does the Minister, therefore, say that he does not recognise as any abuse of the United Nations decision the Transjordan attack on Jerusalem?

I certainly say they did not start the battle. The attack was made on the Holy Places of the Arabs and, after all, I hope this House will have the same regard for the Holy Places of other religions as they have for our own.

Would it not be rather more helpful to try to help the truce instead of trying to stir up trouble?

Greece

Extra-territorial Rights

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that the Greek Parliament has passed a law granting extra-territorial rights to all members of the United States Aid Mission and their families and to United States firms operating in Greece; and whether, in accordance with customary international diplomatic practice, similar privileges have been granted to British citizens and firms.

Yes, Sir. Immunity from the jurisdiction of the Greek Courts and exemption from taxes and duties were granted by a Law of 26th April to the American Mission for Aid to Greece, to its non-Greek personnel and to their families. This Law is a direct consequence of Article 5 of the Agreement between the United States and Greek Governments signed on 20th June, 1947. The same Law grants exemption from taxation and from Customs and Entry formalities to American and other approved foreign contracting firms and their personnel who are undertaking important reconstruction projects in Greece with American funds. This provision applies to all other non-Greek firms executing contracts on behalf of the United States Government. No British firms are at present working under these conditions.

Would the Foreign Secretary say whether any steps are being taken to gain such privileges for British representatives in Greece, as British representatives are there, executing responsibility on behalf of this Government and on behalf of the Greek people; and is this not an indication that Greece is already a colony of the United States?

No, I do not think it is any more a colony than Roumania is a colony of the Soviet Union.

Camps, Makronisi

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reports he has received from the British Military Mission in Greece, representatives of which recently visited the island of Makronisi, regarding conditions on that island.

An officer of the British Military Mission accompanied the Greek Minister of War and other persons on a visit to Makronisi on 26th May, and has reported favourably. He has stated that the camps are not surrounded by wire; that there is no overcrowding; that cookhouses are clean and food good. Though there is no water on the island, ample supplies are brought daily from the mainland. Men detained on the island receive newspapers and produce their own; their families are allowed to visit them; the men looked well fed and healthy, and had no complaints.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether this officer inquired into the welfare of prominent war-time resistance leaders detained on this island, such as General Sarafis and Captain Venetsanopoulos, and whether he inquired into the recent incident in which a number of military internees were mown down in their tents by machine gun fire?

These matters do not arise out of the Question. I would ask that these details should be put on the Order Paper, when I can deal with them.

May I ask whether the Foreign Secretary is aware that the account he has just been given is the same as that given both by the "Daily Herald" correspondent and "The Times" correspondent, who earned the Military Cross and bar for work with the resistance movement in Greece?

International Children's Emergency Fund

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in view of the amount subscribed to the Lord Mayor's Fund now being over £500,000 whether the £100,000 promised conditionally by His Majesty's Government has now been donated; whether both these amounts have now been received by the International Children's Emergency Fund along with all other international contributions; and to what extent His Majesty's Government have control of the British contribution.

A Supplementary vote will shortly be laid before the House requesting that the contribution of £100,000 promised conditionally by His Majesty's Government when the amount subscribed by the Lord Mayor's Fund reached £500,000 should be transferred to the credit of the International Children's Emergency Fund. It is proposed to place this amount, together with 50 per cent, of the total subscribed to the Lord Mayor's Fund, in a special account of inconvertible sterling in the name of the International Children's Emergency Fund. His Majesty's Government will retain control over the expenditure of these funds.

May I ask whether His Majesty's Government are likely to make any further contribution either now or after further monies have been raised through private sources or otherwise? Would the Foreign Secretary say whether there is likely to be information regarding the actual spending of this money?

I would like to have notice of these questions. With regard to the additional grant, I very much doubt whether the Chancellor would be willing to contribute further.

Lieut.-Colonel Tasoev (Visit to U.K.)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement on the visit of Lieut.-Colonel Tasoev to this country.

Yes, Sir. As was announced on 6th May last and published in the Press on the following day, Colonel J. D. Tasoev, Head of the Soviet Reparations Mission in Bremen, voluntarily left his country's service and came to the United Kingdom. After his arrival here, however, Colonel Tasoev changed his mind and expressed the desire to return to the Soviet authorities. Colonel Tasoev was accordingly flown to Berlin on 20th May to enable him to do this, and the Soviet authorities were so informed. Colonel Tasoev reported to the Soviet authorities during the afternoon of 20th May.

In view of the great propaganda made by the Soviet Union about this alleged British atrocity, will my right hon. Friend enable an impartial investigation to take place into the matter, with foreign correspondents given full access to the witnesses, including Mrs. Wiggins, so that the truth about this matter may be ascertained?

I get a lot of these cases of people wanting to escape to England. It is not a bad country to which to escape. I have to deal with these cases every day. They constantly crop up, and I cannot have a prolonged inquiry into every case. I am quite satisfied it is incorrect.

Is it not the case that the right hon. Gentleman as Foreign Secretary has no right whatever to speak for M.I·5, and that he knows as much about the activities of M.I·5 as I do, and that is "damn all"?

In view of the party to which the hon. Member belongs, I should not claim half the knowledge he has of M.I·5.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any information about what happened to Colonel Tasoev after he got back?

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the fact that there have been reports, established by members of the British trade union that represents journalists, which allege peculiar incidents at the flat where Colonel Tasoev stayed, and that those allegations are bound to stick unless he is prepared to give instructions that Mrs. Wiggins and everybody concerned in the matter should be made available to foreign correspondents?

Has the Foreign Secretary's attention been drawn to the fact that one of the allegations made was that this Colonel Tasoev was beaten up in a London police station? Has he investigated that charge? If so, has he anything to say about the result?

I am quite satisfied that there was no beating up or anything of the kind. It must, be remembered that when a gentleman has had an aberration of this character, and his conscience has told him to go back, there must be a good story when he goes back. [ Laughter. ]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that if we really mean to fight against Communism we must get the facts established independently, and that the laughter of this House of Commons is utterly irrelevant?

British Honduras (Ex-Service Men)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will now make a further statement regarding the provision of an adequate scheme of rehabilitation for ex-Service men in Belize; what is the date on which an application was made for a loan in order to finance land settlement on a communal basis; what is the sum involved and when it is expected to be able to implement this scheme; and how many ex-Service men have actually obtained employment in Government service since 4th February, 1948.

With my hon. Friend's permission, I will circulate the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

While appreciating that I shall receive more information shortly, may I ask the Secretary of State to take into account that reports have come from the Colony which indicate that since I raised this matter in February no steps appear to have been taken to remedy the serious situation? Will he see that some vigorous steps are taken so as to reassure unemployed British ex-Service men in British Honduras that something is to be done on their behalf?

I think that it my hon. Friend will read my reply he will see what steps have been taken since the matter was raised in February of this year.

Following is the answer:

I assume that the second part of the Question refers to the scheme for the development of the land known as Topco in the Toledo District of British Honduras. Land settlement, partly on a communal basis, is one of the elements in this scheme, upon which the Governor has been relying to absorb unemployed ex-Service men. An application was received on 26th January, 1948, in which it was sought to finance the scheme partly by a free grant from Colonial Development and Welfare funds and partly by an interest-free loan, amounting in all to some £80,000.

In addition, the Governor is considering proposals for the purchase of land upon which to settle a number of ex-Service men. Decisions upon these proposals must await consideration of the comprehensive recommendations of the recent Settlement Commission, whose report is about to be presented. Since 4th February, 1948, 25 ex-Service men have obtained regular, and 24 casual, employment in Government service; and a further 30 will be employed this year on forest regeneration.

West Indies (Subsidies)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what sum has been allocated to the West Indian Colonies from the local loans and development funds; what grants have been made to them indirectly on the purchase by Britain of their products such as sugar; what subsidies have been made to them during and since the war respectively at the expense of the British taxpayer to reduce their cost of living; and what arrangements have been made for the future to bring to an end this policy of subsidisation by Britain.

Since the answers to the first, second and third parts of the Question are rather long, I will with my hon. Friend's permission circulate them in the

OFFICIAL REPORT.

The answer to the last part of the Question is that, with the possible exception of the Turks and Caicos Islands, no assistance towards the cost of price stabilisation is being given in 1948 or is at present contemplated for the future.

Following are the answers:

The following allocations have been made to the West Indian Colonies under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act, 1945, to cover expenditure over the period 1946–56.

Territory

Allocation

£

General

850,000

Barbados

800,000

British Guiana

2,500,000

British Honduras

600,000

Jamaica

6,500,000

Trinidad

1,200,000

Leeward Islands

1,200,000

Windward Islands

1,850,000

15,500,000

Grants made indirectly to the West Indian Colonies during and since the war on the purchase of their products.

Jamaica : Between 1940 and 1946 £3,499,357 was spent on the purchase of bananas for the United Kingdom, which could not be shipped.

Trinidad : Between 1944 and 1947 £190,450 was paid in subsidies for replanting of sugar in order to increase the sugar production.

British Guiana : Between 1943 and 1947 £561,602 was paid as compensation to sugar growers who were obliged to limit production owing to inability to export or store the full crop.

Subsidies paid to West Indian Colonies to reduce their cost of living during the war:

£

Jamaica

970,900

Turks and Caicos Islands

39,000

British Guiana

208,333

Subsidies paid to West Indian Colonies to reduce their cost of living since the war:

£

Jamaica

179,414

Turks and Caicos Islands

34,827

British Guiana

366,667

Colonial Empire

Subsidies

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what Colonies received subsidies during the war from the British taxpayer to reduce their cost of living; what Colonies have received such subsidies since the end of the war; and how much in each case up to date.

As the answer is long and contains a number of figures I propose, with my hon. Friend's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the cost to the British taxpayer in paying these subsidies is not outweighed by the gain to the British taxpayer through paying less than world prices for Colonial products, including West Indian sugar?

That is always true, but if the hon. Gentleman will put the question down I will give him a full answer.

Is it not clear that it is not the policy of the British Government to try to meet the cost of food subsidies in the Colonies, except in very extreme cases?

That is the general line, but we have given considerable assistance in the past.

Is not that answer another proof that Great Britain, vis-à-vis her Empire, usually gives much more than she receives.

Following is the answer:

The following Colonial territories received subsidies during the war from the British taxpayer to reduce their cost of living, to the extent shown:

£

Antigua

19,997

British Guiana

208,333

Cyprus

667,258

Jamaica

970,900

Turks and Caicos Islands

39,000

In Malta a policy of selling certain essential commodities imported through the COSUP organisation at subsidised prices was adopted.

The following territories have received subsidies to the extent shown since the war to reduce their cost of living:

£

British Guiana

366,667

Jamaica

179,414

Turks and Caicos Islands

34,827

Malta

1,350,000

In addition the following territories which have paid out subsidies to reduce their cost of living have received at different times general grants-in-aid from His Majesty's Government. It is not possible to indicate the extent to which these general grants-in-aid can be regarded as having been used as subsidies:

Dominica.

Montserrat.

St. Lucia.

Gilbert and Ellice Islands.

Solomon Islands.

Annual Reports (Statistics)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if in future editions of the Reports on Colonies he will adopt the suggestions made to him by the hon. Member for Swindon that the reports contain comparisons between the present and the past illustrated by facts and figures to show Colonies' decline or progress and between Colonies and Britain or other developed countries so that the reader can appraise the conditions in Colonies relative to conditions in the West.

Some comparison between the present and the recent past is already made in Colonial Annual Reports, but I do not consider these reports to be the proper vehicle for statistics in detail. Figures in greater detail will be given in the first full post-war edition of the Board of Trade's Statistical Abstract of the British Commonwealth, which it is hoped to publish at the end of this year, and in a new edition of the Economic Survey of the Colonial Empire, which is being prepared for publication in 1949. I do not consider it feasible to produce figures making reliable comparison between Colonies and Britain, or other developed countries, because of the difficulty of finding a satisfactory basis of comparison between tropical countries with a mainly subsistence economy and highly industrialised European countries.

Colonial Service (Resignations)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many men recruited to the Colonial Service since the war have resigned.

I assume that the hon. and gallant Member refers to the administrative and professional officers recruited in this country by the Colonial Office for permanent service under the Colonial Governments. Some four thousand such officers have been recruited since the war. Practically all of these are now in service. As might be expected, a small number have resigned or withdrawn for various reasons, mostly of a personal nature. I could not give an accurate figure without considerable research, but I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that the numbers are insignificant.

Sarawak (Forced Labour)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement concerning the use of forced labour in Sarawak.

There is at present no legislation in Sarawak dealing with the use of forced labour. Forced labour of the kind prohibited by the International Forced Labour Convention does not exist though porterage for administrative officers while on tour in their districts has long been an established custom. This service is strictly limited to the type permitted under the International Forced Labour Convention and the safeguards mentioned therein are observed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman quite satisfied with the cases that were brought to his notice in previous Questions some months back, and that they were not wrongly dealt with?

I am concerned, of course, with forced labour anywhere. I have been in discussion with the Governor, and I hope that new regulations will be made, if we cannot abolish it altogether.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that forced labour is legal in this country?

African Colonies

Nigeria (Groundnuts)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress is being made in removing stocks of groundnuts from Nigeria; whether the new railway engines on order have arrived; how the crop awaiting shipment is protected from the weather; and at what cost.

Up to 27th May, some 83,000 tons of British groundnuts were railed to port from Northern Nigeria since the beginning of the year. Unrailed stocks at that date amounted to 276,000 tons. I understand that 20 of the 63 new locomotives on order arrived in Lagos on 31st May. Groundnuts at port are stored in railway sheds during the short time they await shipment. In Northern Nigeria, some 120,000 tons of groundnuts are stored by merchants in covered accommodation. The remaining stocks in that area, which at the peak of the season amounted to 180,000 tons, are stored in pyramid stacks covered by tarpaulins. Apart from interest on money outstanding, the cost of storage in merchants' permanent stores is 1d. per ton per week after 30th June. Storage in stocks, including handling and provision of tarpaulins, is estimated to cost £75,000 for the 1947–48 season.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion he expects to lose of the groundnuts which are at present stored in one way of another?

We are increasing the means of transport. We have had a very great problem here. Transport, as the House knows, is the fundamental difficulty. There will be, of course, a fairly considerable quantity carried over into the next season. With the arrival of the new locomotives this year and the next, we ought to be able to move the remainder.

Can my right hon. Friend assure us that, with the arrival of these engines, this year's crop will not be stored in this way but adequately disposed of?

It cannot be rapidly disposed of, and for some time to come this is the only means of storage available to us.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any idea of the average length of time that nuts can be kept in these stores, and whether there is any report made as to deterioration or otherwise?

I think that I can say quite safely that prolonged storage of these nuts does not result in any serious deterioration.

Gold Coast (Social Development Officer)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, when the Mass Education Officer, appointed at the request of the Gold Coast Government, began work; and what staff and money have been put at his disposal to enable him to develop education.

The Mass Education Officer, now known as the "Social Development Officer," took up duty on January 12th, 1948. With a view to making recommendations about the character and scope of mass education plans, he first undertook an extensive tour of the country. His work was interrupted by the recent disturbances, but his recommendations are being studied and it is hoped that staff will soon be allocated and funds made available to carry out specific projects.

Can the Colonial Secretary say how long he expects this officer will stay kicking his heels?

I am not aware that he is "kicking his heels." We are all very alive to the vital importance of this phase of educational work.

Can the Minister give an assurance that this officer has adequate supplies of literature to enable him to discharge his duties properly?

Missionary and other, religious organisations have made a study of this problem of literature for Africans, and some of that literature will be available.

East Africa (Nutrition Unit)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if there is a nutrition unit working in any part of East Africa.

No, Sir. There is at present no project in any East African territory comparable with the Nutrition Field Working Party operating in the Gambia. The scheme in the Gambia is regarded as a prototype, and it is planned that the experience to be gained from it should be applied as soon as possible to other territories.

Could the right hon. Gentleman say what is a nutrition unit? Is it a mobile canteen, or what?

A nutrition unit consists of a grup of specialised workers including workers in agriculture, education, public health and so on, all of whom are working on the social problems involved in getting the native peoples to adopt nutrition plans.

May I take it from my right hon. Friend's reply that as soon as possible a nutrition unit will be started in one or other of the staff colleges?

Yes, but already a very considerable amount of nutrition work has been done. There has been a great deal of research work, with the setting up of experimental stations, and so on, in East African territories.

Could the right hon. Gentleman say what is the calorific intake of one of these nutrition units? Could one be placed in the Library?

Mass Education

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Mass Education Officers are now employed in Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia.

In Nyasaland one Mass Education Officer and one Mass Education Assistant are employed, together with two African assistants. In Northern Rhodesia mass education is being undertaken as part of the work of the Education and Information Department and by Missions, but no officials carry the title of "Mass Education Officer."

West Africa (Locomotives)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent priority is given to West Africa in the supply of locomotives from this country; and the number on order and the number delivered to that area since the end of the war.

The attention of the makers has been specially drawn to the importance of completing locomotives on order for West African Railways as quickly as possible. The number now on order is 78, and the number delivered to West Africa since the end of the war is 58.

Could my right hon. Friend say whether there are sufficient locomotives in West Africa at the present time to get the available food surpluses to the coast?

Could the right hon. Gentleman say when that order for locomotives was given?

I have not the date here, but orders have been placed at different times over a period.

Goods Traffic, Dar es Salaam

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the approximate tonnage which the Tanganyika Central Line can clear weekly from Dar es Salaam; and to what capacity it is proposed to raise this by the end of 1948.

In normal circumstances, 2,200 tons dead weight can be cleared a week. This figure will rise to 2,700 tons by end of 1948 and to 3,000 by about April, 1949.

Does the Minister consider that this is adequate to handle not only the Government groundnuts scheme, but also all the other valuable crops held up at the moment?

Obviously, I am not happy about the port arrangements in East Africa, but we are doing all that we can to increase the facilities, and we shall continue to do so.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this congestion shows the desirability of the Colonial Development Corporation going ahead of the Colonial Food Corporation in order that transport shall be available?

Cyprus

Constitution

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has considered the statement issued by the Central Committee of the Progressive Party of Cyprus Working People on the constitutional proposals recently announced for the Island by His Majesty's Government, a copy of which has been sent to him by the hon. Member for Finsbury; and whether he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. The statement sought to justify the action of the seven members of the Cyprus Consultative Assembly who voted against giving a trial to the constitutional proposals of His Majesty's Government. I am in consultation with the Governor on the steps to be taken after the Assembly's vote and am not in a position to make a statement at present.

As it is obvious that the people of Cyprus are unanimous in wanting self-government, is not the Minister apprehensive that they will come to feel that they are treated by us as inferior to the people of Malta, who have been given a great measure of self-government; and is not the real explanation of what has been done that the Minister desires to hold Cyprus as a Colony; and does he not know well that if they get self-government they will opt to join Greece and will not want to remain in the Empire?

A very substantial contribution to self-government is included in the constitution, but it would be quite untrue to say that the views as expressed by the seven Members concerned represent anything like the unanimous views of the Cypriots.

Do not the great mass of the people living in Cyprus realise that by belonging to the British Empire they get a square deal?

In the light of that suggestion, can the Minister explain how, under the system of representation established by us, every single person elected by the Cypriots does in fact reject the Constitution?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why it was not possible, when formulating the recent constitutional proposals, to accede to the request, common to all sections of the community, to grant self-government to Cyprus.

My information does not confirm that all sections of the community supported this request. As indicated in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Bexley (Mr. Bramall) on 27th May, His Majesty's Government proposed a line of advance in Cyprus which they considered appropriate to the conditions and experience of the Island.

I have in mind that in the, previous answer to which the Minister has just referred the word "dyarchic" was used. Can the Minister explain whether "dyarchic" means looking in both directions at the same time?

Hong Kong (Airport)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the inadequacy of the airport at Hong Kong; and what improvements are in contemplation.

Yes, Sir. I am urgently considering, in consultation with the other Department's concerned and the Government of Hong Kong, proposals for the construction of a new airport in Hong Kong.

Are not delays experienced in this matter very difficult to justify, and is the Minister aware that this announcement, although belated, is welcome?

Yes, Sir. This matter, of course, is one of very considerable complexity. It has created a great deal of difficulty for us, and I am now discussing with the Colonial Government and the Treasury the financial implications involved.

While it is admitted that the financial implications are no doubt important, the right hon. Gentleman has perhaps read the recent article in "The Times" on this issue. Many of us feel that there was great force in it, and we hope that he will not allow financial considerations to be the final voice in this matter.

No, I think that the House may take it for granted that for all practical purposes the financial matter is now settled.

In view of the fact that some time ago the right hon. Gentleman announced that an amount of money was to be granted, and that this has already been dealt with, has nothing been done since then?

Yes, there has been a considerable amount of internal discussion and also discussions with the Hong Kong Government, and the matter is now practically settled.

Is the Minister aware that discussions have been going on for the last two years, that no modern aircraft can land there, and that valuable dollars have been lost.

Seychelles (Notaries)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies at whose request a Bill is being introduced into the Legislative Council of the Seychelles to provide for the appointment of notaries and in particular for the appointment of an Official Notary; and what are the reasons for its introduction.

The hon. Member no doubt has in mind an Ordinance to make provision for the appointment of a Registrar-General. This Ordinance was a Government measure, and its object is to concentrate in the hands of one properly qualified officer a number of duties hitherto performed by various persons. The Ordinance was passed unanimously by the Legislative Council on 27th April, 1948. It is now being examined by my advisers with a view to the signification of His Majesty's pleasure.

British Guiana (Indians)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Indians in British Guiana are given the option of permanent settlement in the Colony instead of repatriation; and whether if they choose the former they will be permitted to draw from the Repatriation Fund an amount equivalent to the cost of their repatriation or land in lieu of this.

Indians in British Guiana can choose either to settle permanently in the Colony or to take advantage of facilities for free repatriation offered by the Government. They are not entitled to any grant of money or land if they prefer the alternative of settlement.

Will my right hon. Friend reconsider this matter, because as we are not repatriating them, a certain amount of money is thereby saved, and should not that be used for securing land in lieu thereof?

The money was not saved. It was an offer made at the time they were introduced into the territory; but if they do not go back it is not spent.

Armed Forces

Voluntary Service (Nationalised Industries)

asked the Minister of Defence what action is taken by the Boards of nationalised industries to encourage their employees to join the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, the Territorial Army or the Royal Auxiliary Air Force.

I understand that the Bank of England and the Civil Aviation Corporations give one week's additional paid leave to any of their employees who attend camps with the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces. The National Coal Board and the Transport Commission give one week's additional leave without pay for this purpose. The Electricity Boards are considering the matter, but, as an interim arrangement for this year, will follow the practice of the individual undertakings which they have recently taken over.

Will the right hon. Gentleman treat as a matter of urgency the question of the Government issuing some direction to these corporations so that they can give a lead in this very important matter of stimulating recruitment?

I should not think that it lies within my power to give a direction to a Board of this kind concerned with the general management of a nationalised industry; but I am quite sure that proper representations will be made.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Engineering Employers' Federation have instructed all their members not to pay wages to men in the Territorial Army who go away to camps; and can he introduce legislation, covering the country as a whole, to make these employers pay, as this is most unfair on those employers who wish to pay but are being prevented from doing so by the Federation instruction?

That is another matter, and would require new legislation. I should have to consider that.

Could the Minister of Defence say what is the minimum age at which men may join these volunteer organisations?

I should say any time from 18 onwards. Men who are called into the Forces for compulsory service under the new Act will, of course, be recruited during the period of their National Service.

Is the Minister prepared to say whether he is satisfied with the encouragement the Coal Board are giving to recruitment to these volunteer Forces; and in particular, will he say whether he is aware that the National Coal Board refuse to allow recruiting posters anywhere near the pitheads?

I have no knowledge on the last point. Of course, no Minister of Defence will ever be quite satisfied with the rate of recruitment, or the support for recruitment from either these Boards or any other employer. I must say that the arrangements that have been made so far are much superior to some of those made before. In any case, if there were an emergency, a great many of the employees in the mines could hardly be released.

Is the Minister himself desirous that all the nationalised industries should treat this matter in a similar way; and in view of the conditions which he has announced today, will he taken any steps to try to get the position uniform?

I hope that all employers, including boards of nationalised industries, will give the utmost assistance to the appeals we have made to support for the volunteer Forces.

Will the right hon. Gentleman do all he can to see that if the gas industry is nationalised, the Gas Council honour the agreement made by individual branches of the gas industry to give their employees paid holidays during the period of the camps?

I have already indicated that the Electricity Boards are at present carrying on the practice of the previous corporations; but I am quite sure that that does not satisfy the point of view of the hon. and gallant Member for Stockport (Wing-Commander Hulbert), who put down the Question.

Bacteriological Warfare

asked the Minister of Defence what investigations he is conducting into the question of bacteriological warfare.

The possibility that bacteria may be used in a future war is not being overlooked. Researches are being conducted so that we may be ready to meet any situation which may arise.

Does that mean we are investigating the question of bacteriological warfare purely from a defence point of view, or are we preparing to use this method of warfare against other nations?

Combined Cadet Force Scheme

asked the Minister of Defence whether he will now make a statement regarding the proposed scheme for a combined cadet force.

Yes, Sir. The scheme, which has been some time in preparation, has now been agreed, and I am arranging for details to be made available in the Library. Arrangements have been made for its early communication to local education authorities and to headmasters of schools which are eligible to form units of the new Combined Cadet Force. The scheme provides for a common basis of training up to the standard of Certificate "A" Part 1, and for the formation of specialist Navy, Army and Air Force sections for the older boys. It should simplify the administration of the various cadet units in schools, and make it easier for schools to run cadet forces for all three Services, rather than for only one or two of them. I would stress, once more, the great value of the Cadet Force, both to the Services and to the nation, and I appeal most earnestly to all who have not yet been able to form cadet contingents to consider entering the new scheme.

Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted with the Lord President of the Council and the London County Council about the last statement he has made?

I know of no damaging statement from this point of view made by the Lord President of the Council.

Does this mean that the Sea Cadet units as now constituted will remain as they are?

The Sea Cadet units in general will remain as they are, but they will be given an opportunity in the basic training unit of a public or secondary schools combined cadet force unit to do all their primary training together, and then to go into special Naval, Army or Air Force units.

Will the Minister send a copy of his excellent reply to the Cooperative party?

I happen to be a member of the Co-operative party. I will do what I can.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in this connection no stones can be thrown at the London County Council by anybody who knows anything about it?

Questions

Germany (Six-Power Agreement)

On 15th May last year, when I reported to the House after the Moscow Conference of Foreign Ministers, I made it clear that the London meeting, which was due to be held in November would bring to a head the next stage in the organisation of Germany, and if it did not lead to a satisfactory agreement on Germany between the Four Powers, vital issues would have to be faced. Meanwhile the German bizonal agencies dealing with the economic affairs of the two zones would be concentrated at Frankfurt.

In spite of our best efforts, the London meeting of the Council of Foreign Ministers failed to result in Four-Power agreement. This forced the Western Occupying Powers to consider what had to be done in Germany. As I told the House when I spoke in the Foreign Affairs Debate on 22nd January, we stood for a united Germany, not a dismembered or divided Germany.

We continued to be hopeful and as an interim measure we still confined our bizonal arrangements to the economic field. But I also foreshadowed that the British, American and French Governments would, as a result, have an early exchange of views on the steps necessary in their zones. We could not allow ourselves to be held up indefinitely. This decision was not a counsel of despair. It did not mean that we had abandoned hope for the future. But we realised that there was little hope of immediate agreement. The three Governments, therefore, decided that their representatives should meet together to discuss and to resolve a number of common problems affecting the recovery of Western Germany, a solution of which could no longer be delayed.

On 4th May I told the House that further decisions would be taken and that in due course we would make public our intentions. We still stood for the principle of German unity but had to take facts as we found them. In view of hitherto irreconcilable differences between the Western Powers and the Soviet Union this aim could not at present be realised.

The talks began on 23rd February and went into recess after issuing a preliminary report on 6th March. We then received Notes of protest from the Soviet Government. We nevertheless decided to go ahead, since we had already given a clear indication of our intentions. We could not allow the differences between us, or the protests they called forth, to delay the programme on which agreement was already shaping.

The talks were therefore resumed and have resulted in recommendations, covering a wide field, which are fully summarised in the Communiqué issued on Monday, 7th June. His Majesty's Government have now approved these recommendations. That does not mean that we have even now abandoned hope of eventual Four-Power agreement. We are still in favour of the economic and political unity of Germany; that that must be established on proper principles. It must include genuine freedom of speech, real liberty of the person and unhampered movement of men and goods throughout Germany.

The Western Powers and the Soviet Union differ on these principles. If these differences can eventually be reconciled progress could be made. But we must go on with our programme without interruption.

In drawing up this programme we have also had to pay regard to the question of security. The world has suffered two terrible wars as a consequence of German policy. It would be wrong to ignore that fact, and we have made provision against a recurrence. On the other hand, we hope the Germans will never again have recourse to war and in our approach to the German problem we have made possible the development of democratic political institutions which we invite the Germans to work out. We also provide the means for Germany to associate herself more closely with the rest of Europe and its recovery.

We on this side of the House welcome the Agreement which the Foreign Secretary has just announced and we hope that it will be the prelude to further and closer collaboration between the free democracies on either side of the Atlantic. Perhaps I may add just one personal word. I fully understand and sympathise—as, I think, does the House—with the anxieties of our French friends, but I hope they will feel that the confidence they have so bravely shown in arriving at this Agreement will be met by a like confidence from their Allies. Such, I have no doubt, is our intention, and it is in that spirit that we support what has been announced.

May I ask the Foreign Secretary whether and when the House will have an opportunity of discussing the details of this Agreement, because some of them as published in the Press are not at all clear. I am particularly anxious—and I know other hon. Members are anxious—to know precisely what are the intentions regarding the selection and appointment of German representatives to the Assembly, international control, voting rights and matters of that kind. Who is to issue directions in these matters? Are we to have an opportunity of discussing the details and expressing our views?

On any question of a Debate, representation should be made to the Leader of the House.

I ought to have said before that we shall seek the opportunity for a Debate. Arrangements can be discussed, if necessary, through the usual channels.

When the Foreign Secretary reminds us that he gave a clear indication of his intentions, has he in mind that he pledged himself to the House and to the country—for example, on 22nd October, 1946, and 4th August, 1947—that the whole of the heavy industry of the Ruhr would be taken into public ownership and control? Does he acknowledge now that he has abandoned the whole of that project under this new arrangement as disclosed in the communiqué of Monday last? With regard to the reference by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) to the plight of the French people, does not the Foreign Secretary think that, instead of sending unofficial emissaries to try and browbeat the French into accepting what the "Daily Herald" this morning calls the "Betrayal of French Security," he should take the risk of sending Mr. Morgan Phillips to Germany to try to explain to the German workers why a British Labour Government hands over German industry to the Nazi industrialists who built Hitler and to their Yankee over-lords?

With regard to the public ownership of the industries of the Ruhr, I gave an answer to the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) some weeks ago. That answer arose out of one agreed decision of the Four Powers, which I had better repeat. It was proposed by the United States that the ultimate ownership of the Ruhr industries should be left to the German people. That was seconded by Mr. Molotov, supported by the French, and I said that I fell in with it. I think that that is where we stand today and that there is no need to repeat it. With regard to sending a representative of the Labour Party, I have not sent anyone. I do not think that the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Platts-Mills) should always assume that the evil he thinks operates in my mind as well.

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether, in view of the greatly changed circumstances and the great contributions that the German industrial machine must make to Western Europe, if the standard of life is to be raised again, he will reconsider the whole of the level of industry plan, especially in regard to the present plan for dismantling and to the fact that no allowance has been made for the export of steel? Further, while reconsidering the whole situation, will my right hon. Friend give instructions that no further dismantling of useful plant shall take place?

No, Sir, I am going to try to honour the obligation on reparations which we entered into with the other Governments. It is no use saying to France and others who are called the I.A.R.A. countries, "We are going to close down on reparations and do nothing to repair ravages caused by Hitler." I have always to carry in mind that it was Germany who started the war, not France and not Belgium and not the other countries which were invaded. In trying to be just to one, we must not be unjust to others.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the all-important matter of currency was dealt with at the Conference and whether any finality was reached on the matter?

In view of the supreme importance of close relations between this country and France and the danger to the whole of the rest of Western Europe which would arise from any political disturbance in France, will my right hon. Friend undertake to look at the Agreement again in the event of its being rejected by the French Assembly?

Does my right hon. Friend propose to publish the full terms of the Agreement as a White Paper?

That is not our intention. We have to deal with other Governments on a large number of details, but the actual communiqué covers all the main principles of the Agreement.

I am delighted with the Foreign Secretary's suggestion that he is proposing to keep to our promises about reparations from Western Germany to France in particular. Is it not a fact, however, that far from anything coming from the Ruhr to France, Lorraine steel is now going to be sent to the Ruhr?

In regard to my right hon. Friend's remarks about the continued policy of reparations, will he bear in mind that probably the best form of reparations is to allow the German industrial machine to continue to work and to turn out the goods which other countries can use?

I must point out that in the minds of the French after being invaded three times the location of highly developed technical machinery in the Ruhr, after being the base of three wars, is a matter of grave concern, if everything is to be left in the Ruhr, and, ultimately, in German control. It is all very well for us, who have a stretch of water between us and the Continent, and who have never been invaded, but we have to recognise the Continental mentality over this problem.

Bill Presented

Public Works Loans (No. 2) Bill

" to grant money for the purpose of certain local loans out of the Local Loans Fund, and for other purposes relating to local loans," presented by Mr. Glenvil Hall; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill III.]

Business of the House

Motion made, and Question put,

" That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at his day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 279; Noes, 114.

Division No. 195.]

AYES.

[3.44 p.m.

Adams, W. T (Hammersmith, South)

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Corlett, Dr. J

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Crawley, A.

Hardy, E. A.

Alpass, J. H.

Crossman, R. H. S.

Harrison, J.

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Daggar, G.

Haworth, J.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Daines, P.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Kingswinford)

Attewell, H. C.

Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Herbison, Miss M.

Awbery, S. S.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Hobson, C. R.

Ayles, W. H.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Holman, P.

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Bacon, Miss A.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Horabin, T. L.

Balfour, A.

Deer, G.

House, G.

Barstow, P. G.

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Hoy, J.

Barton, C.

Diamond, J.

Hubbard, T.

Battley, J. R.

Dodds, N. N.

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Bechervaise, A. E

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

Belcher, J. W.

Dumpleton, C. W.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Benson, G.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Berry, H.

Edelman, M.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Beswick, F.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Bevin, Rt. Hon. E (Wandsworth, C.)

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

Binns, J.

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Blenkinsop, A.

Evans, Albert (Islington, W)

Jenkins, R. H

Blyton, W. R

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)

Bottomley, A. G.

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Bowden, Fig. Offr. H. W.

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Keenan, W.

Bowen, R

Ewart, R.

Kendall, W. D.

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Fairhurst, F.

Kenyon, C.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

Farthing, W. J.

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Fernyhough, E.

Kinley, J.

Bramall, E. A.

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

Kirkwood, Rt. Hon. D.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Foot, M. M.

Lang, G.

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Forman, J. C.

Lawson, Rt. Hon. J J

Brown, George (Belper)

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Gallacher, W.

Leonard, W.

Buchanan, Rt. Hon. G

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Leslie, J. R.

Burden, T. W.

George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

Lever, N. H.

Burke, W. A.

Gibbins, J.

Levy, B. W.

Byers, Frank

Gilzean, A

Lewis, J. (Bolton)

Callaghan, James

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Carmichael, James

Goodrich, H. E.

Lindgren, G. S.

Chamberlain, R. A.

Granville, E. (Eye)

Lipton, Li.-Col. M.

Champion, A. J.

Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

Logan, D. G.

Chater, D.

Grenfell, D. R.

Longden, F.

Chetwynd, G. R.

Grey, C. F.

Lynn, A. W.

Cluse, W. S.

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

McAdam, W.

Cocks, F. S.

Guest, Dr. L. Haden

McAllister, G.

Coldrick, W.

Gunter, R. J.

MoEntee, V La T.

Collindridge, F

Guy, W. H

McGhee, H. G.

Collins, V. J.

Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

MoGovern, J.

Mack, J. D.

Platts-Mills, J. F F

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

McKay, J. (Wallsend

Popplewell, E.

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

McKinlay, A S.

Proctor, W. T.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Maclean, N (Govan)

Pursey, Cmdr. H.

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

McLeavy, F.

Randall, H. E

Thurtle, Ernest

Mainwaring, W. H.

Ranger, J.

Tiffany, S.

Mallalieu, J. P. W (Huddersfield)

Rankin, J.

Titterington, M. F.

Mann, Mrs. J.

Rees-Williams, D. R

Tolley, L.

Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

Reeves, J.

Turner-Samuels, M

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Usborne, Henry

Mathers, Rt. Hon George

Rhodes, H.

Vernon, Maj. W F

Mayhew, C. P.

Richards, R.

Wadsworth, G.

Mellish, R. J.

Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

Walkden, E.

Mikardo, Ian

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Walker, G. H.

Mitchison, G. R

Rogers, G. H R

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Monslow, W

Segal, Dr. S.

Warbey, W. N.

Moody, A. S

Shackleton, E. A. A

Watkins, T. E.

Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

Sharp, Granville

Watson, W. M.

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St Helens)

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Wells, W. T (Walsall)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E)

Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

West, D G.

Mort, D. L.

Skeffington, A. M.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Moyle, A.

Skeffington-Lodge, T C

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

Murray, J. D

Skinnard, F W.

Wigg, George

Nally, W.

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S)

Wilkins, W. A.

Naylor, T. E.

Snow, J. W.

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Solley, L. J.

Willey, O G. (Cleveland)

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Sorensen, R W

Williams, D. J (Neath)

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P J. (Derby)

Soskice, Sir Frank

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Sparks, J A.

Williams, W R. (Heston)

Oldfield, W H.

Steele, T.

Willis, E.

Paget, R. T

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Wills, Mrs. E A

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Stokes, R. R.

Wise, Major F J

Palmer, A. M. F.

Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

Yates, V. F

Parker, J.

Stubbs, A. E.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Parkin, B, T.

Summerskill, Dr. Edith

Younger, Hon Kenneth

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Swingler, S.

Pearson, A.

Sylvester, G. O.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Perrins, W.

Symonds, A. L.

Mr. Simmons and

Piratin, P.

Taylor, H. B (Mansfield)

Mr. Richard Adams.

NOES.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

Harvey, Air-Cmdre. A V

Peake, Rt. Hon. O

Amory, O. Heathcoat

Head, Brig. A. H.

Pickthorn, K.

Baldwin, A. E.

Hope, Lord J.

Pitman, I. J.

Barlow, Sir J.

Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Beamish, Maj. T V H

Hurd, A.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

Beechman, N. A

Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

Raikes, H. V

Birch, Nigel

Jeffreys, General Sir G

Rayner, Brig. R

Bower, N.

Jennings, R.

Reed, Sir S (Aylesbury)

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Keeling, E. H.

Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

Kerr, Sir J Graham

Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K

Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

Ropner, Col L.

Carson, E.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Challen, C.

Linstead, H N

Sanderson, Sir F.

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew. E)

Savory, Prof. D. L.

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col G

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Scott, Lord W.

Cooper-Key, E. M.

Low, A. R. W

Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O E

MacAndrew, Col. Sir C

Spearman, A. C M

Crowder, Capt. John E

Macdonald. Sir P. (I of Wight)

Spence, H. R.

Cuthbert, W. N.

McFarlane, C. S.

Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

Darling, Sir W. Y

Mackeson, Brig. H. R

Studholme, H. G

Digby, S. W.

McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Sutcliffe, H.

Dodds-Parker, A. D

Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Donner, P. W.

Maitland, Comdr. J W

Taylor, Vice-Adm E. A. (P'ddt'n S I

Drayson, G. B

Marlowe. A A. H

Teeling, William

Drewe, C.

Marples, A. E.

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T (Richmond)

Marsden, Capt. A

Thornton-Kemsley, C N.

Duthie, W. S.

Marshall, D (Bodmin)

Touche, G. C

Eccles, D. M.

Marshall, S H. (Sutton)

Turton, R. H.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Mellor, Sir J.

Wakefield, Sir W W

Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W

Molson, A. H. E

Ward, Hon G. R.

Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L

Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T

Watt Sir G. S. Harvie

Fox, Sir G.

Morris-Jones, Sir H.

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

Morrison, Maj. J. G (Salisbury)

York, C.

Glyn, Sir R

Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

Young, Sir A. S L (Partick)

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A

Noble, Comdr. A. H P

Gridley, Sir A

Nutting, Anthony

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Grimston, R. V.

Osborne, C

Major Conant and Major Ramsay.

Orders of the Day

Gas [Money] (No. 2)

Resolution reported:

"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide amongst other things for the establishment of Area Gas Boards and a Gas Council and for the exercise and performance by those Boards and that Council of functions relating to the supply of gas, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of compensation to persons employed in or in connection with the examining of gas meters or the testing of gas who suffer loss of employment or other loss in consequence of the said Act."

Resolution agreed to.

Gas Bill

Order for consideration (as amended in the Standing Committee) read.

3.54 P.m.

I desire to raise a point of Order of which I gave notice to yourself, Mr. Speaker, and to the Government. The point concerns Clause 34 of the Bill, which is entitled: "Income tax provisions." I shall not attempt to explain the effect of the Clause to yourself or to the House because the Clause is extremely obscure. Indeed, had it been less obscure this point of Order might have been taken at an earlier stage of our proceedings.

I would refer you to what was said by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury during our proceedings upstairs. He said:

The Chairman of the Committee made several remarks upon this subject. Perhaps I may refer to two of them. Speaking to me he said: 4.0 p.m.

The position then became that the Government's defence to our objection against proceeding with the Bill was that the matter was covered by a Resolution included among the Budget Resolutions. After that the Clause was added to the Bill and the matter was no longer capable of being raised upstairs in Committee. I have now had an opportunity of searching through the Budget Resolutions for this year and, as far as I can make out, there is only one Resolution which has any bearing in this matter whatsoever and that is number 25, "Charge of Income Tax." Paragraph (b) reads:

However, there is a further matter which seems to make this Resolution quite inappropriate for the purpose for which the Government seek to use it, and that is that the Bill was committed to a Committee upstairs in the early months of this year, I believe in February. That, of course, was before the date the Budget Resolution was proposed. The Budget Resolution was proposed on 6th April, and it happened that our discussion of this Clause took place after 6th April. It was not very long after, but I submit that a Resolution which was brought in on the Floor of the House after the Bill had been committed to a Standing Committee could not make effective the proceedings of the Committee if they required the passage of a Resolution of that kind.

I cannot raise this matter on an Amendment to the Bill because, clearly, if I were to move that Clause 34 be omitted, it would be impossible for you, Mr. Speaker, to put that matter to the House, because the Government could not carry a Clause which was thus out of Order. Therefore all I can do is to raise the matter as one of Order to you now. I submit that it is out of Order to proceed with the consideration of this Bill until a proper Ways and Means Resolution has been put down and passed by this House.

The point of Order on which the hon. Baronet has asked for a Ruling can be stated as follows: Clause 34 of the Gas Bill provides that certain payments made by a stockholders' representative

In my view, Clause 34 of the Gas Bill does not effectively impose Income Tax on the payments in question. It provides for the deduction of Income Tax

Consequently, the effective provision for imposing Income Tax on these payments has to be made by the Finance Bill, and Clause 24 (2) of the Finance (No. 2) Bill does, in fact, impose tax on these payments by reference to the present Gas Bill. This Clause, of course, requires to be authorised by a Ways and Means Resolution, and it was so authorised by Resolution 25 (b) of the Budget Resolutions, passed in Committee of Ways and Means on 6th April. The procedure may seem obscure

but it is, in fact, the proper way by which the tax on these payments should be imposed. When the Gas Bill was introduced, it was clear that the payments could not be made during the financial year 1947–48 during which the Income Tax was in operation, but would fall to be made in the subsequent year in respect of which Income Tax had not yet been imposed—and might in theory never be imposed.

There is nothing unprecedented in this form of procedure; it was adopted without objection in the comparable cases of the Transport Act and the Electricity Act, and also in other cases affecting the incidence of the tax, which occurred in advance of the imposition of the tax itself. I must, therefore, hold that Clause 34 of the Gas Bill does not in itself require to be authorised by a Ways and Means Resolution, and that the charge of Income Tax was effectively imposed by Clause 24 of the Finance Bill founded upon Resolution 25 (b) of the Budget Resolutions.

I am grateful for your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, but I find difficulty in seeing where we may be limited if we are limited by ruling that the matter is to be governed by the Finance Bill and not the Bill at present under discussion. The wording of the Finance Bill to which you have referred follows precisely the wording of the Budget Resolution. It simply says, in effect, that subject to the provisions of the Gas Bill, Income Tax shall be continued, so that it would leave it completely open under the Finance Bill for the Gas Bill to make any provisions of any kind whatsoever. The Gas Bill merely refers to Income Tax being levied on certain payments by which it is not otherwise attracted. It seems to me that if it is open for a Standing Committee to consider that Clause at all it must be open to that Committee to amend that Clause. The Committee might, for instance, have amended the Clause by charging Income Tax at 19s. 6d. in the £ or over 20s. in the £ on the compensation payments which were made. I should have thought that to say that Financial Resolution 25 authorised the Standing Committee upstairs to impose taxation of that order was putting a very great deal of weight on some very slight grounds.

I respectfully submit that if the Government are to employ—as they are bound to—the machinery of using Budget Resolutions as a matter of procedure, those Budget Resolutions should state specifically the limits of the charge which they enable the Standing Committee to inflict on the subject.

It is a very complicated matter, I agree. I feel I should be rash if I added to or subtracted one single word from what I have read out which, after all, was a carefully prepared statement. No doubt it may be read and considered. After all, "the last clause of my statement was that I held that Clause 34 did not require to be authorised by a Ways and Means Resolution, and that the charge of Income Tax was effectively imposed by Clause 24 of the Finance Bill founded upon Resolution 25 (b) of the Budget Resolutions. That must stand unless, by chance, it could be proved to be inaccurate. That is my Ruling at the moment. I am sorry to be rather difficult.

Of course we defer to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, but the mention of the Transport and Electricity Acts may be of some importance. However, I hope this ghastly Gas Bill will not lead to any final decision in this matter. It is the opinion of my hon. Friends that if we could resurrect the late Sir Erskine May we should be in a position this afternoon to give the Government a pretty good castigation on their procedure, but as it is beyond our power, we defer to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, and we go ahead.

I beg to move,

" That the Bill be re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendments to Clause 15, page 13, line 29, Clause 15, page 13, line 33, Clause 15, page 14, line 19, Clause 24, page 28, line 39, Clause 25, Clause 28, page 34, line 39, Clause 29, page 35, line 32, Clause 58, page 71, line 18, Clause 58, page 71, line 21, and of the new Clause (Payments in respect of reserves of composite companies) standing on the Notice Paper in the name of Mr. Gaitskell."

The first thing I have to say about this matter is that we ought to protest from the point of view of the House of Commons generally, and not merely from a party point of view, about the procedure of the Government. We are now coming back to the Committee stage of the Bill upstairs, and I should have thought that the Minister would not have wished to return to those rather difficult times. I certainly do not desire to go back to the Committee stage. I am speaking now as a House of Commons man rather than as a party man, and it is a great pity that we should be asked to turn ourselves into a Committee at this moment.

The Minister must recognise that it is a gross misuse of the procedure of this House. I know that he is very busy and I know that his officials are overwhelmed by work, but it really is wrong that we should come to the House today to return to the Committee stage. We could not get hold of the most important things yesterday, and it is a gross abuse of the procedure of the House that the Government do not take more trouble in drawing up their Bills. That is my preliminary observation.

I have sympathy with the Minister. He has a Department that sprawls all over the place. He has heavy responsibilities, and I do not want to make any personal attack on the right hon. Gentleman or on his civil servants, but this House of Commons machinery is completely overloaded by the policy of the present Government. That is a responsibility more perhaps of the Lord President of the Council than of any other Minister, but it is hard on this House today to have to return to the Committee Stage of the Bill upon which we spent three and a half months. I think that the whole authority of Parliament is declining under the procedure recommended today by the Minister. The Minister may answer that he is meeting our convenience, but that is not the case. We are not here to play chess with the Government, we are here to try to pass good laws, and the procedure adopted by the Minister today can be guaranteed to produce the worst of laws.

This Bill is ill thought out, it has been dished up to us upstairs in an amateurish way, and we come back to it today with a tremendous amount of Amendments proposed by the Minister which should have been dealt with upstairs. We have to do our duty, and one of our duties is to protest against this procedure. I hope hon. Gentlemen opposite will join with us in saying that, when the Minister produces another Bill, he will have it worked out carefully, that he will not produce the slapdash affair which we had to discuss upstairs, and that we shall not again have to return to the Committee stage of a Bill like this. I said to the Minister upstairs that the Lord President of the Council was determined to turn this House into a sausage machine. This Bill is a complete confirmation of the statement I made.

I deeply regret that the right hon. Gentleman should, so early in our proceedings this afternoon, be returning to the filibustering to which we became, unfortunately, only too accustomed upstairs. As you will agree, Mr. Speaker, it is a perfectly natural thing in the case of a major Bill, when we return to the House, in respect of certain Amendments to have the Bill recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House. These Amendments have been made in almost every case in response to suggestions by the Opposition. We are not ashamed of accepting suggestions from time to time, but to describe the Bill as ill thought out is ridiculous. As a matter of fact, the number of Amendments which we are making to this Bill on Report stage is far fewer than we made to the Electricity Bill.

I regret, Mr. Speaker, that I was so disturbed by indignation that I omitted to move my Amendment. May I, with the leave of the House, move, at the end, to add:

" and in respect of the Amendments to Clauses 24, 25, 27, 29 and 30, Clause 58, page 71, line 18, and of the new Clause (Compensation to local authorities) standing on the Notice Paper in the name of Mr. Bracken."

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, the right hon. Gentleman has already made his speech

The right hon. Gentleman has not had it. May I ask, Mr. Speaker, in view of the remarks made by the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken), that you will not accept the Amendment?

As my right hon. Friend is not given an opportunity, owing to the interruption of the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles)—

[HON. MEMBERS

: "Oh."]—perhaps I may be allowed—the hon. Member apparently does not wish free speech on any matter. Perhaps I may be allowed to say to the right hon. Gentleman that I think his remarks on the subject of filibustering come singularly ill from a Minister whose own Moton now before the House is itself a confession that the Committee stage did not result in proper and adequate discussion. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman who has moved that admission of failure, will bear in mind that this Bill would have been much better discussed if, in Committee, he had been more willing to listen to reasoned arguments and less inclined to rely, when he had no argument, on the bludgeon of the Closure.

I think we are becoming a little irregular, because, after all, we are discussing the Amendment to the Motion and not the general question yet. The Question is—

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I should like to know who moved this Amendment to my right hon. Friend's Motion. It was not moved by the right hon. Gentleman or by the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) or by anybody else.

The right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) was moving it as the hon. Gentleman was rising to interrupt.

No, with great respect, Mr. Speaker. Although he may have gone on shouting louder than I did, and he may have prevented me from making my point, he did not have the leave of the House to make any second speech at all. I was up before he was.

The hon. Gentleman will please accept my Ruling. He said he was up before anybody else. I called the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken). I said that he had moved the Amendment, and so he did, I heard him, and I accepted the Amendment. The Question is, "That those words be there added."

The discussion which has taken place so. far has been by hon. Gentlemen and by right hon. Gentlemen who took part in the proceedings up stairs—

The Question is, "That those words be there added." We are not on the general Questión but on adding those words.

Question put, and agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

Bill immediately considered in Committee.

[Major MILNER in the Chair]

CLAUSE 15.—(Undertakers to whom Part II of Act applies.)

I beg to move, in page 13, line 29, to leave out "forty-seven," and to insert "forty-eight."

Perhaps it would be for the convenience of the Committee if this Amendment could be taken together with the two following Amendments to line 33 and to page 14, line 19, since they deal with the same problem. The Amendments affect the position of holding companies under the Bill, and slightly modify the dividing line which distinguishes whether a holding company is, or is not, to be taken over under the Bill. The original proposal in the Bill in Clause 15 (I, c) is that a holding company is taken over when more than 75 per cent, of its assets are in the form of holdings in gas subsidiary companies. There was some discussion in Standing Committee on this Question of the dividing line, and I promised to reconsider it.

As a result I am proposing Amendments which provide certain modifications. First, they alter the date on which the position of the company in relation to the subsidiary undertaking is to be considered from 1st January, 1947, to 1st January, 1948. The practical effect of this is that it excludes the Palatine Company which since 1947 has sold its gas assets. Therefore, at the present moment it is not a gas holding company in the ordinary sense of the word, whereas previously 75 per cent. of its assets were in gas subsidiaries. It will also include the North-Western Company, because in 1947 it had no gas assets, but now 78 per cent, of its assets are in gas subsidiaries. Therefore, these Amendments include one company which should be brought in and exclude one which should be left out.

The other two Amendments leave out the words "moneys owed by "and insert "loans made to." The result is to exclude from the computation debts of a casual or fluctuating character which might be owing by a subsidiary company to a holding company. This limits holdings of this kind to the proper sense of the word. The effect of this is to exclude from vesting the South-Western Gas Corporation. This Corporation in fact, does hold some extraneous assets and controls certain water undertakings which we do not wish to take over, and, as it has no central organisation, it is of no positive advantage from our point of view. The only thing I need add is that in response to a request from the right hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) a published list of holding companies affected by this Amendment has been published, and it appeared in "The Times "the other day.

We are much obliged to the Minister for his lucid statement about matters which, I think he will agree, are not of very high significance. I confess I am not deeply learned in the affairs of the Palatine Company, but it looks as if the Minister's proposals on the whole will appeal to my hon. Friends who sit behind me. I was wondering whether at this stage we could ask you, Major Milner, what Amendments you are prepared to call. It would be greatly for the convenience of the Committee if there were some information from you on that point.

I understood that the hon. and gallant Member for East Grinstead (Colonel Clarke) called at my office and was given full particulars of the Amendments which have been selected. I thought that was a convenience to the Opposition.

That is so, but I was wondering if it would be convenient to hon. Members on the other side of the Committee if these Amendments were stated now. We are grateful for the facilities you have extended in this matter.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 13, line 33, leave out "moneys owed by," and insert "loans made to."

In page 14, line 19, leave out "moneys owed by," and insert "loans made to."—[ Mr. GaitskelL. ]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 24.—(Compensation to holders of securities.)

I beg to move, in page 28, line 2, after "than," to insert "a composite company."

We have now got to the main compensation Clauses of this Bill. As this Clause is drafted it lays down that any undertaker, to whom this part of the Act applies and who may hold an investment which investment is of a gas undertaking, shall on the vesting date find his gas interest is extinct. As far as statutory undertakers are concerned, that is the obvious way in which to proceed, because the undertaking is taken over on the vesting date, and obviously if the undertaker holds an interest in another company which is equally great there is no point in his keeping these shares as an asset of the first company. This does not apply in the case of a composite company.

I am afraid that this Amendment is somewhat difficult to move, because it has reference to various other parts of the Bill. We had a certain amount of discussion during the Committee stage, and the Solicitor-General then said he was satisfied, in the case of a composite company owning an interest in a gas undertaking, that that interest would only be liquidated if it could be proved that it belonged to the gas part of the undertaking. That is an impossible thing to prove. Under Clause 18, Subsection (5) no assets of a composite company shall be distributed except after the regulations have been made by the Minister. Those regulations provide the apportioning as between a board and the company of the whole of the cash and investments of the company. It is the contention of the hon. and learned Gentleman that when that apportionment comes to be made he is going to invoke Clause 18 (8) so that he will only distribute these assets in so far, if I may quote from Subsection (8) as

I do not think that Clause 18 (8) can apply. Therefore, we feel that if we take out the composite company and thereby make Clause 18 (5) the sole criterion for the judgment as to what is to happen to those assets we should be much wiser. By leaving the position as it is at the moment we might well find that where a composite company has a fund established from the proceeds of its water undertaking it is extinguished merely because it happens to be in a company which also has a gas undertaking. A greater measure of justice would be done if this Amendment were accepted.

4.30 p.m.

I do not think that any practical difficulty should arise if one considers precisely what the effect of Clause 18 (8) is. As the hon. and gallant Member agrees, there is no point, if one has securities in a gas undertaking which is taken over, in one's getting, shall I say, a measure of compensation which is extinguished almost immediately afterwards. The answer to the difficulty which the hon. and gallant Member has envisaged is to be found in the precise terms of Clause 18 (8), which says that the "undertaker to whom this Part of this Act applies "(which includes composite companies) is to be construed as referring to them in their capacity as such undertakers only. The word "only" has to be borne in mind. If a company holds gas securities in some other capacity the proviso does not prevent it from being compensated for them. It only applies if the company holds gas securities solely in its capacity as a gas undertaker, for example, as an investment of the funds of the gas undertaking.

To translate that into practical reality, one has to satisfy the word "only." If one cannot say in regard to any particular holding that it is held only in the company's capacity as a gas undertaker the proviso does not apply. The virtue of Subsection (8) rests in the word "only," that is if there is doubt and one cannot say in what capacity that fund is held by the composite company; is it held by the company as a gas undertaker or partly as a gas undertaker and partly as a water undertaker? The proviso only applies if one can say affirmatively that it is only held by a composite company in its capacity as a gas undertaker.

That canon of construction being borne in mind, one is left in no doubt. Where one can say affirmatively that a particular holding is not held by a composite company solely in its capacity as a gas undertaker the proviso does not apply. It only applies where one can say affirmatively that it is. That being applied to any particular set of circumstances, I feel that no real difficulty arises and I accordingly ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.

I thank the Solicitor-General for his statement, but he has spoken throughout about whether "one can say" whether the word "only" applies. I presume that he means by that the Minister of Fuel and Power. There is no means of going to arbitration on this matter. As I read Subsections (5) and (8), the Minister of Fuel and Power is empowered to say that any particular fund shall be viewed as being that of a gas undertaking. Whilst I agree with him that that is a canon of construction, it should be perfectly fair and reasonable for some one other than the composite company or the Minister of Fuel and Power to say that such a fund is not solely used as part of a gas undertaking, but that provision does not seem to exist in the Bill. We are striving to bring composite companies within the provisions of Subsection (5) only, in which case it will be necessary for regulations to be made which will come before this House, and we can decide whether they are fair and just. Above all, it will mean that reserves of these companies will be correctly apportioned between the gas and water interests. I would ask the Solicitor-General: Who is to make that canon of construction of which he spoke, and what safeguards are there if the composite company does not agree with the construction which is made?

I hope that we shall get some sort of answer from the Government. Let me reassure the Minister, labouring under his many grievous woes, that we on this side of the Committee are not engaged in filibustering; we are trying to make good laws. My only object in interrupting the free flow of debate is to ask the Solicitor-General whether he is absolutely satisfied that what he calls the "cannon of construction "—a beautiful alliterative phrase—really meets the case of the composite companies? If the Government are satisfied that it does, and if those of my hon. Friends behind me who are lawyers do not dispute the point made by the Solicitor-General we can probably let the Amendment go the way of all flesh. [ Interruption. ] As the Financial Secretary in his usual charming way, is interrupting, it would be worth while for him to get up and confirm that there is nothing in the doubts which have been expressed by my hon. and gallant Friend and I feel certain that we can get on with business. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is straining to speak—

For the junior Privy Councillor to describe the conversation which has passed between the Financial Secretary and myself as leg-pulling is an insult to our select body, but I do not want to get involved in that point. I am very much hoping that the Financial Secretary will get up and say in a loud voice what he has breathed to me across the table.

I listened to the Solicitor-General and was far from satisfied. I think he had great difficulty in satisfying himself that he was quite correct. I am certain that there will be grave difficulty in connection with the point which has been raised, and this Amendment would clarify the situation. I cannot understand why the Government, who are we believe anxious to make good law, will not accept this Amendment and make perfectly clear what is to be understood by this Clause.

I had not meant to speak again, but I hope that the Solicitor-General will give us some reply. He has stated that he has given a canon of construction. I asked him a simple question: Who is to make that construction? Surely that is a question which some one on the Government Front Bench should be able to answer at once. I ask the Solicitor-General what is to happen to a fund consisting equally of investments in the gas industry and investments in Consols. So far as I can gather the 50 per cent, in the gas undertaking will be cancelled and the 50 per cent, in Consols will fall for distribution between the two sides of the concern. If that be so we get the most ridiculous position that any composite company in industry which made investments in the industry in which it is concerned may well lose, ex parte, any percentage of that investment, whereas any company which has not wished to develop any particular investment outside the industry will find the whole of its funds are available for distribution. That seems an excellent reason why we should take the composite companies out of this Clause and put them back where they should be in Clause 18 Subsection (5).

4.45 p.m.

Clause 18 (2, a ) provides for the making of regulations. In the event of a dispute of that kind the matter will be determined by arbitration. Indeed, there is an item on the Order Paper dealing with arbitration. In the event of a dispute it will be decided by arbitration and I think that is the fairest and most businesslike method.

We are grateful to the Solicitor-General for the courtesy which he has shown and the lucid explanation he has given. We are perfectly reasonable people. [ Interruption. ] Hon. Members opposite will not facilitate the business if, at this early stage, they begin what might be called "cat-calling." They ought to have had enough of that. I was about to say that, although we were not perfectly satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, we have a long Order Paper before us, and we are most anxious to get on. We would not propose to divide the Committee, in view of the courtesy—

My race, which indeed is also your race, Sir Charles, is well known as a disputatious and quarrelsome set of people. But I do not think that this zeal for a Division at so early a stage is shared, either by the Minister, by the Solicitor-General, the Financial Secretary, the Home Secretary or by anybody who sat through the protracted proceedings of the Gas Committee. We do not propose to divide simply for the sake of Divisions. The learned Solicitor-General having given us an explanation, we are willing to accept it. Although we are not wholly satisfied with it, we do not propose to divide the Committee on this Amendment.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in page 28, line 13, at the end, to insert:

The purpose of the Amendment is very simple. At any time not less than one month before the vesting date, any person who is entitled to the issue of Gas Stock shall be able to apply to the Gas Council and receive, in payment for the shares he now holds, a sum equal to one half per cent, less than he would have been entitled to if he had accepted Gas Stock. The Amendment goes on to say that if for any reason it is not possible for the stock to be issued before the vesting date, interest shall be paid on the money at 3 per cent, per annum until such time as the Government can make the issue.

In Committee the Financial Secretary asked who, even if this was practicable, was going to find the money? Was the Gas Council to be asked to raise one issue after another in order to satisfy the holders of previous issues? He went on to say that he thought that that was the most incredible suggestion. Surely, if this nationalised industry is to have stock which is fair, then it should be possible for the Gas Council, using the facilities given by this House, to issue stock at rates which would enable them to pay off those people who may not wish to hold Gas Stock. It seems to be a simple proposition. But apparently it is the last thing that the Financial Secretary wishes to see. What he wants is a forced issue decided by the Treasury irrespective of justice.

We feel that the Government would be well advised to consider this Amendment seriously, since it does encourage any person now holding Gas Stock, if he is not satisfied with what he thinks he will get from the Government, to draw cash if he comes forward not less than one month before the vesting date. If he does not he has only himself to blame. If the Financial Secretary asks who is going to find the money I would answer that it surely is the Gas Council, who have quite adequate powers. All they have to do is to use those powers to raise a loan which will secure the confidence of the British public.

I emphasise the point that this Amendment does not ask for more than the Government say the holder is entitled to but it asks for less. That may seem a surprising thing to do, but it is done as a result of experience. When we were discussing this matter upstairs the Financial Secretary made a very weighty pronouncement. He said:

We are also particularly urged to press this Amendment because, not only may the Government act as they have done previously in the case of electricity and transport but, under the terms of this Clause, their latitude for evil doing is very much wider. It is laid down that in the opinion of the Treasury the stock is to be of a stated value, not at a certain date but at or about that date. Therefore, the opportunities presented to the right hon. Gentleman for evil doing are very much greater than they have been so far. I do not think that he should want to sink without having done something to salve his conscience. This is the best we can do for him at the moment.

I end as I began by impressing upon the right hon. Gentleman that if the Government act fairly, and if the stock which they issue is of the correct value, anybody who takes advantage of this Amendment will lose one half per cent, of his money. Therefore, we are giving a certain latitude to the right hon. Gentleman. Within that margin of one half per cent., if the terms are fairly fixed, it ought to be perfectly easy to absorb the initial sales which we fully admit are likely. These initial sales might be worth half a point; they could not be more. If the right hon. Gentleman rejects this Amendment he is saying, very nearly, that he has no intention of issuing a stock with the correct terms and dates. In fact, he is reaffirming the statement I read that he intends to act as he has done before and persist in error.

I should like to start with a premise which the Government put forward many times upstairs, and with which I am completely in agreement, namely, that they are seeking to be fair in their terms of compensation. We do not think they are being fair in the way in which they arrive at their figures. That is a separate issue which can come up on many points, but I think that both sides of the Committee are at one in applauding the Government's view that, in so far as they have to pay compensation, they wish to do it fairly.

I should like to go back to the question of compensation for the Bank of England which the Government put through the House, and to draw an important distinction between the effect of paying compensation when markets are rising and paying compensation when markets are falling. In the case of the Bank of England compensation, the Government desired to pay a fair price. They paid their compensation at a figure which was fair in their opinion at that date, but which they knew, because they controlled financial policy at the moment, was a figure that was going to benefit those who held the stock. On the other hand, in compensation for transport, electricity and gas they are paying at a time when the market was on the way down and when clearly people, by holding, would lose money.

The proposal to allow people to sacrifice a discount of one half per cent, on a figure which the Government themselves consider to be fair must in itself further add to the fairness which the Government propose, because at that discount it must be more fair to the Government than the figure chosen by the Government. My hon. Friend the Member for Flint (Mr. Birch) pointed out that the holder would lose one half per cent. He did not go on, as he might well have done, to point out that where somebody loses, somebody gains, and that it is the Government—and through the Government the nation—which will gain that discount of one-half per cent. I wish to establish the point that in settling that one-half per cent, below the figure which the Government themselves say is fair, we are obviously not doing anything which is unfair. We are doing something positively fair, because it puts a floor—at any rate for the period in this Amendment—as at that date to the loss below what is considered fair which the whole of Gas Stock may fall, and the holder suffer. That is the whole intention of this Amendment. The intention is, by putting a floor, to prevent the gas stockholder receiving less than what the Government consider to be fair.

There is one other point which is highly relevant. In the time before a vesting date there is a considerable settling down of the market. All the people who want to get out and do not want to hold stock permanently, get out during the period of unsettlement. At vesting date one is left with the people who have a bona fide intention, so far as one can foresee the future, to hold, and to hold firmly. Therefore, this provision is not likely to be one that will be invoked on any very great scale unless the Government are deliberately depressing the market at that time so that what would otherwise be a fair compensation does not remain a fair compensation. On all those grounds, I strongly recommend this Amendment to the Government, and I hope that they will accept it. It achieves what they say they want to achieve. It puts in a floor so that values cannot sink below what they themselves have settled as being fair compensation for stockholders.

I wish to support this Amendment on three simple grounds. I should have thought that it offered the Government a great opportunity to show to the country the integrity and honesty of their intentions. Here we have assets not voluntarily sold but forcibly taken from the holders. The holders are to receive certain compensation computed by a most complicated method. If the Government have confidence in the Gas Stock, here is a great opportunity for them to save money. If they have confidence in this issue, here is a grand business opportunity by which the Government will benefit to the extent of one half per cent.

If they do not accept the Amendment, it will show a lack of confidence in the stock to be issued as compensation, particularly in view of the forced sale. There is no such thing in nationalised industry as a willing seller and a willing buyer. These are people who have had their assets forcibly taken away from them by Act of Parliament. They are given certain compensation in the form of Gas Stock. In all honesty these people, even at a discount of one half per cent., ought to have the opportunity of saying, "If I give you notice in accordance with this Clause, I will take the cash and I will give you the benefit of one half per cent, discount." If the Government have confidence in the stock, they will accept the Amendment; if they have not got confidence, they will not accept it.

5.0 p.m.

It so happens that all the hon. Gentlemen who have so far taken part in these Recommittal proceedings were members of the Standing Committee upstairs, and I am sure that I am voicing the views of hon. Members who did not have that privilege when I say that, when a major Measure of this kind goes to a Standing Committee, it is a little difficult for those of us who were not members of the Committee to keep track of all that took place, particularly when this Standing Committee's examination of the Bill was conducted in so conscientious a fashion that the discussions went on by day and night. The proceedings were somewhat lengthy and it is difficult for those of us who were not there to read and grasp the whole of the discussion.

This Amendment, however, does strike a chord of memory. Those of us who had the opportunity of taking part in the proceedings on the Transport Bill, which was also sent to a Standing Committee, could not help feeling, as we listened to my hon. and gallant Friend who moved the Amendment, how valuable it would have been if a provision of this kind could have been inserted in the Transport Act, in the light of subsequent events. I have taken the opportunity of studying the proceedings upstairs as far as I can, and I find that, on 20th April, the Financial Secretary delivered himself of one of those lucid statements which so endear him to us all; he said:

This Amendment gives an option to the holder, who, so to speak, may chance his arm. Would he rather deliberately tip the market to the tune of half a point or one half per cent., take what he can while he can? That seems to me to be the chief weight behind this argument from the Government's point of view. We have heard so much, not only from the Financial Secretary, but from that somewhat ephemeral figure the Chancellor of the Duchy, during the last few years about how British credit has been raised or lowered—the 2½ per cent, basis—and one could quote ad, nauseam speeches pointing out how British credit has been established on this basis. I think I can recall more than once the late Chancellor predicting that Consols, which are the bell-wethers of stocks, were going to reach the figure of 100 and how he and Lord Catto would indulge in mutual congratulations. We have travelled very far from those days, and this Amendment is brought before the Committee, not only in the light of present events, but in the light of bitter experience. It seems to me that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) and those associated with him have put forward an eminently practical proposition.

Here is an opportunity for the Government to back their own opinions and for the Financial Secretary to make good his protestation. What an offer—that these people are prepared to accept one half per cent, lower now, in the knowledge and belief, and in the certain hope, as it is stated in the Book of Common Prayer, that they will fare better than if they allow the ordinary vagaries of the market to take place, despite the effort of the Government through the release of large funds to prop that market, and despite the further fact that the gilt-edged market looks more and more careworn as the days go by. If you were a Government broker, Sir Charles, you would show no particular difference in countenance from that of the Financial Secretary—more and more careworn day by day, as the result of anxious nights.

Here my right hon. Friend is offering the Government a chance of escape from their embarrassing situation. I was shocked to hear the Minister of Fuel and Power, whom we all respect so much—on the morrow of an all-night Sitting in which the Chancellor promised to reconsider the whole question of water heaters and bathing facilities—in such a peevish mood, and to hear a Privy Councillor almost inciting hon. Members opposite to noisy interruptions was another shock. I hope these proceedings on the Floor of the Committee will proceed in an orderly manner, and I am sure that, in the mind of the Patronage Secretary, there is no suggestion that the. Question should now be put. How better could the Government act than by accepting this Amendment to give people the opportunity of accepting one half per cent. less? It seems to me to be just what the Government want, if they have any real confidence in their stock. We think that the people concerned might be very well advised to accept this one half per cent, discount now, for fear of what lies ahead.

I could not help thinking, as I listened to the Debate developing, that what we have here is a hangover from the vendetta which has now been carried on for a good many months against the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Would the right hon. Gentleman allow me? He must remember that the terms of issue of the two stocks about which we are now complaining were fixed by the right hon. and learned Gentleman under whom he now serves.

Nevertheless, I think it is generally true. Listening to the arguments, they seem to have a familiar ring. I have heard them many times, and few, if any, of them can be substantiated. They stem quite definitely from a war which has been carried on against the financial policy of the former Chancellor of the Exchequer.

What this Amendment proposes is that holders who, under the Bill, are to receive British Gas Stock equal to the market value of Government securities at or about vesting date, should be given the option of taking cash at a slight discount instead of stock, if they are so minded. The assumption is that it is essential to give this option to those who are going to get the stock because they can be absolutely certain that the stock itself will sink to a discount. We could not for a moment accept that assumption. The Amendment which was moved in a slightly different form upstairs was designed with the same object, but it was so silly and futile that we only had to expose it in brief speeches from our side of the Committee for the Opposition to drop it.

The hon. Gentleman has had his opportunity to make one speech; if he catches your eye, Sir Charles, he can make another.

When we dealt with the similar Amendment upstairs, we had to point out that people who held British Gas Stock had. to give six months notice, and that it would be very difficult indeed in these days, or at any time for that matter, for anyone to forecast six months ahead what the price of any particular Government stock would be. Therefore, it would, quite definitely, have been a gamble. If this Amendment were accepted, there would also be a gamble on the part of the holders. According to the Amendment, they must forecast one month before vesting date what will be the value of the stock when issued, what the rate of interest will be, and whether it is likely to go above or below the rate at which it was issued. It seems to me that that is implicit in the terms of the Amendment.

The words in the Amendment are "not less than one month." It can be done at a day's notice. The whole of the argument about forecasting falls to the ground, surely.

The words are "not less than one month before the vesting date." That means "at least a month." Unless I am entirely misinterpreting what hon. Members opposite have in mind, I must assume that they want not less than one month's notice to be given—unless the wording in the Amendment is not what they really mean. That being so, it means that a potential holder of British Gas Stock has to elect one month before the vesting date.

If the policy which appears in the Bill is correct—and we believe it to be correct, because it has been the policy laid down in previous nationalising Measures—we cannot see why we should now turn about and allow all those who are so minded to be paid their compensation in cash.

At a slight discount. If they desire cash, they can always go to a member of the Stock Exchange and sell.

Either at a discount or a premium, according to the market. We think that this is much fairer to them than making them elect at least one month before vesting date, as the terms of this Amendment propose. Until vesting date draws near, it is quite impossible for even the Treasury to say what will be the price of issue or the rate of interest. When the Transport Stock was issued, regard had to be had by the terms of the Act to a number of factors, and those factors were quite definitely taken into account when the terms were fixed. The hon. Member for Flint (Mr. Birch) said that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer issued Transport Stock and decided the value and the rate of interest. It is true that he is responsible to Parliament, but the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members opposite are well aware that he does not act in these matters alone.

He takes the view of the Government and of the Bank of England. I made this perfectly plain when we were discussing this point upstairs in Standing Committee. It is very well known by hon. Members opposite. The right hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut. -Colonel Elliot), who has just left the Committee, once occupied the office which I now hold, and he could tell his hon. Friends that it is so. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is in constant touch with the Bank of England and with City opinion. I think I may say that he has as good a means as anyone of judging what is just and fair. He does not take this sort of decision alone, although he is quite properly responsible for it to Parliament, once it has been taken.

The hon. and gallant Member for the New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre) sees the fallacy of this Amendment as well as I do, and was at pains to fasten on what would be a very real difficulty if we accepted it—namely that, if the Gas Council had to pay out this compensation, it would still have to raise stock from the market and it would have to find a, very large sum.

It would have to raise a very large sum, because it must have working capital if the gas industry is to re-equip itself and expand. Therefore, to throw on the Gas Council this burden, in addition to the obligation of raising working capital, strikes us as completely unfair and unnecessary, and it is a proposal to which we cannot for a moment accede.

It is quite wrong—and no one knows this better than most hon. Members opposite—to judge the permanent value of any given stock by the fluctuating day-to-day quotations in the Stock Exchange list. I can remember very clearly the quotations for Government stock after the end of the last war when this Government was not only not in power but was not even thought of; three per cent. Local Loans were down to about 40, and Consols were very low indeed, down to 50 or 60. No one then charged the Government with being unjust to the holders of those securities, or accused them of robbing the individuals who held that gilt edged stock.

What is quite certain is that before the Transport Stock was issued, and before the Electricity Stock was issued, consultations took place between the Governor of the Bank of England, the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have not the quotations with me, which is rather a pity, but there is in the City a financial paper connected with the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken), and that paper indicated—to its credit, because it is not a Labour paper in any sense or form—that the price of issue of the Transport Stock was fair in the circumstances. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] Oh, yes. It was generally admitted by those most competent to judge, and whose judgment was not warped by political prejudice, that the price was about right.

I think that the Committee can accept from me that my right hon. and learned Friend, in consultation with those who are able to judge the position and with the Governor of the Bank of England, will, when the time comes to issue the Gas Stock, issue it at a price which is fair to those who will hold it and also fair to the taxpayer and to the Gas Council who will have to pay the interest while the industry gets on its feet.

We have listened to a discursive and, in certain ways, a very interesting speech from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. The right hon. Gentleman's memory has carried him back to 1923 or 1924 when he urged that his party had no responsibility for the direction of our affairs. There was one reasonably good Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord Snowden, whose memory has not been well treated by the right hon. Gentleman and who witnessed a very great decline in the value of Consols, We have never doubted that Consols have lost their value between the wars. Not a bit. We have no doubt whatsoever that the Gas Stock proposed to be issued by the present Government will decline in value at a far greater rate, but I wish to remind the right hon. Gentleman that Consols were not offered in 1924, the year to which he referred, to anyone at their normal value for property about to be expropriated by Government action. That is the real point at issue and the right hon. Gentleman has apparently not seen it.

I object strongly to the Financial Secretary shoving some responsibility for this Bill upon the Governor of the Bank of England. So far as I know, Lord Catto did not want to nationalise the gas industry any more than he wanted to nationalise the Bank of England. I feel very strongly that the Financial Secretary should produce some proof that Lord Catto is in favour of the course which the right hon. Gentleman is now following. If I may be allowed respectfully to say so, I consider Lord Catto a great public servant and I think it is very wrong to attribute to him the political decisions of the present Government. I have known a few Governors of the Bank of England, but I have never known a Governor better equipped in many ways than is Lord Catto for filling the august office. I think it is disgraceful that the Financial Secretary should come here and quote his name in favour of this Bill. Lord Catto had nothing to do with the origin of this Bill.

his remarks by way of tribute to the judgment, the foresight, and the knowledge of the Governor of the Bank of England. Then the right hon. Gentleman went on to say, what is quite untrue, that I said that the Governor of the Bank of England had approved of this Bill and of the nationalisation of the gas industry. I do not know whether he is in favour of the nationalisation of the gas industry or not. That is quite immaterial.

What I said was that, when the decision was taken as to what the issue value of the compensation stock for transport was to be, the Governor of the Bank of England was consulted by the Chancellor, that the decision was taken after these consultations, and that the Governor of the Bank of England approved the price.

The Financial Secretary appears to be withdrawing, but is running busily around the Hampton Court Maze in getting round his blazing indiscretion. We have to take your Ruling, Sir, and it was very wrong to mention the name of Lord Catto in this Debate, tempting the Financial Secretary to defend himself. We have declined as a House of Commons and, of course, I need say nothing about the Government, but it is a very strange thing that the Financial Secretary should spend quite a lot of time today in talking about what he called the ex-Chancellor. This is a most disrespectful remark. The right hon Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) has once again become a Chancellor—and in my judgment he is much more appropriately placed this time—and I protest at the Front Bench manners. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman objects—

I do not see where the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) enters into this.

May I respectfully point out that for at least five minutes the Financial Secretary kept talking about the ex-Chancellor. He objected strongly about the attribution of the Transport Stock, for instance, to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster: he said it belonged to the present Chancellor of the Exchequer. I do not wish to bring in the name of the present Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, but my protest is that the Financial Secretary apparently still regards him as a former Member of the Government, whereas he is a Member of the Cabinet and a Chancellor—a much better placed Chancellor than he was in the Treasury. But we should not argue out these matters and get too excited. The Financial Secretary never rises to his feet without losing his temper in an amiable way and losing the thread of his argument as well, but I would bring him back to the hard facts of financial life.

In over 100 years a large number of gas stocks have been sold. Sometimes gas companies were sold as a whole, but they have always been sold for cash or marketable securities, and that is the point of my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendment. If anybody had attempted to buy a gas company in any part of Britain before the present Government came into office and said, "We will offer you a security; you have to hold it for a long time; it may well be that it will decline greatly, but, nevertheless, you should accept our offer "—the answer to that would be, "Go away: we are not doing business on those terms." In former times gas stocks were sold for cash and marketable securities that would not quickly decline in value.

That is the solitary object of the Amendment. Surely that is what the Government should offer to the holders of gas stocks in this country. They are offering the plentiful product of their over-worked security printers. I do not know whether you, Sir, have ever seen the Government security printing establishment. It is a magnificent building, run by the Bank of England, which, again, is owned by the Government. Strangely enough, it was formerly a lunatic asylum, St. Lukes, and may again become a lunatic asylum.

The Financial Secretary misses the point of our Amendment. We want to get cash for these stockholders or the offer of cash. We do not want to take the Government's mothy paper. The Government may think it a reasonable thing to desire to take away the gas stocks held by a citizen of this country, but is not the citizen affected entitled to ask for cash? I should have thought so. The Government say, "You can have a security and you can negotiate with a stockbroker or a Bank and you may get cash." It seems to me to be the simplest and wisest arrangement to say, "I will pay cash." The Minister with his very clear mind will recognise that if one has an un-negotiable security, it is better to trade that security for cash at a discount. That is the object of our Amendment and I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman objects to it

Does he fear a collapse of the paper issued by the Government? Perhaps that is the reason. All I can say to the right hon. Gentleman is that when he tells the unfortunate people who hold gas stocks—and there is no sounder security one can get in this country—that if they get the new type of paper he is proposing to issue, and if they want to turn it into cash they can go to a bank manager or stockbroker, that is a very unfair alternative. Of course, they cannot turn it into cash readily unless the Government will give them that leave. The right hon. Gentleman went on to ask, "What is wrong with holding a Government security? It is better than cash." Let me remind him of what has happened to what are called Daltons. They are now selling at 25 per cent, discount.

5.30 p.m.

I should like to say a word on this matter of high finance, a subject of which I know very little apart from the general principles. One of the hon. Members on the other side of the Committee was very anxious that there should be fair dealing. I want fair dealing. He wants fair dealing in relation to the stockholders. I want it in relation to the people of this country. I should be prepared to support the Amendment, and to go into the Lobby with hon. Members on the other side, if they would make just one slight change in the Amendment. So far as I can understand it, ½ per cent, means that if a lad has £100 of stock he will take £99 10s. and leave 10s. to the Government. If hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite will change the Amendment so that the lad takes 10s. and leaves the rest to the Government, I will support their Amendment.

We on this side of the Committee are very disappointed with the reply of the Financial Secretary. He seems to miss the whole point of what we are trying to tell him. We are not saying we disapprove of the principle of Government securities. What we are saying is that we do not trust the present Government to put over a fair deal. I am very sorry that the Financial Secretary brought in the Governor of the Bank of England. He brought him into the discussions on the Committee stage.

I am sorry to interrupt. I am afraid I have done so once or twice, although normally I try not to do so at all. But the hon. Gentleman must not give the impression that we on this bench are dragging in the Governor of the Bank of England. What happened in the Committee was that the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) and his hon. Friends put down an Amendment referring to the Governor of the Bank of England and trying to write his name into the Bill. Indeed, there is on the Order Paper today a similar Amendment, although it has not been selected by the Chair. Moreover, it was someone on the other side of the Committee who first mentioned the Governor of the Bank of England. What I am saying, and what I am entitled to say, and what I cannot say too often, is that the decision as to the price of issue was taken, and very properly taken, in consultation with the Governor and those advising him, though the final responsibility to this Committee, and to the House and to the country, is that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

I am very much obliged for what the right hon. Gentleman has said. As for the original Amendment upstairs, we asked that the Governor should be the judge in this matter as between the Government on the one hand and between the stockholders on the other. The Financial Secretary prayed in aid the fact that the Governor was on one side and not on the other side in the issue. He said:

We are not satisfied with the play which the Government have put over in the past and may put over again. If the right hon. Gentleman is going to bring in other gentlemen from outside we must attack them as well. I do not want to do that, however. I want to attack the Government. The reason we put down the Amendment is that we on this side have not confidence in the fair play of the Government in these matters. I would refer again to the Transport stock, which now stands at 95 5/16 and has never stood higher than 98¼ or 98½. Therefore, if one takes 2 per cent, discount, the Government have not come within the fair target by nearly 2 per cent., which amounts to £20 million. Up to date, experience is that the Government have taken to themselves at least £20 million in trying to adjust this figure.

Therefore, we are entitled to be frightened of what the Government are going to do, and we are entitled to say that the Government are prepared to shift their decisions so far as they can in their own favour. That is a serious accusation to make, but, realising that, I make that allegation. That is the reason for this Amendment—that we do not feel confident that the Government are prepared to play fair. The question we ask from this side of the Committee is, whether the Government would be prepared to take ½ per cent, discount or not. I do not think the Financial Secretary can get away from it merely by talking about the price of Consols or some other Government securities in previous times when there was no question of compulsion in compensation.

I hope we shall have a very convincing reply—possibly from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power, whom we are glad to see in his place now. We have missed his assistance up to date. Perhaps, he may be able to come to the assistance of his right hon. Friend. The point is that experience in the past has been that the stockholders have not received at any time par for their securities. We are confident that that will happen again. Therefore, we put down this Amendment. If the Government give us an assurance that they will honour these securities at par, well and good; that will be equally satisfactory, I imagine, to Members on this side of the Committee. Unless they are prepared to do that, I hope my right hon. Friend will press the Amendment to a Division.

I want to make only one point. It seems to be suggested that this is some new idea, but it is not a new idea at all in private industry. The Government are integrating industry today on a much larger scale than has been done before, but for a number of years integration has been going on, and in a far better way through the Gas Corporation, which has acquired the properties of a number of gas companies and integrated them into larger groups. In all these cases this method of compensation was adopted, and it has worked well and has been thoroughly satisfactory. I cannot see why the Government cannot do the same thing. There is nothing new about it at all. The Gas Corporation did not ask the recipients of cash to take ½ per cent. less. They gave an exactly equal sum, which was a great deal fairer. What we are really asking the Government to do is to back what they say is their fair opinion, that they are giving an honest deal to those from whom they are buying the industry. If they do not accept the Amendment it will look as though they are suspicious of the financial results of their enterprise.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury stated that the Press had approved the terms of issue of the Electricity and Transport Stocks. I think, therefore, it is only right that I should quote what "The Times" said in regard to the issue of Transport Stock. On 2nd January "The Times" said:

" The Treasury cannot even make out a mathematical case for the terms: of a moral case there is no question. Thus the railway stockholders' long standing conviction that they would in the end be the victims of a second shabby deal proves to have been not wholly unjustified—that is, unless the authorities are prepared to buy the new stock at par."

The Financial Secretary has made the point that—

I referred to the "Financial Times." Perhaps the hon. Baronet does not know that there is a paper in the City called the "Financial Times." The right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) is connected with it. In an aside, I referred to the fact that the papers generally thought that the terms of issue were not unreasonable or unfair. I said nothing about "The Times." I am well aware of what it said.

Surely, the right hon. Gentleman is aware that "The Times "also deals occasionally with financial subjects, and I think that the right hon. Gentleman ought to be less rash in his statements. My recollection was that the Press generally condemned the terms of issue of the Transport Stock as grossly unfair to the stockholders.

What is the proposal now under discussion? The Financial Secretary has apparently decided that it is less fair to the stockholders than the proposal contained in the Bill. I cannot understand how he reached that conclusion. What does it do? It superimposes upon the terms of the Bill an option in favour of the stockholders. It comes to this: By paying one-half of 1 per cent, premium, they can insure against loss of capital. If they are prepared to accept one-half of 1 per cent, less than the total amount assessed to be due to them, they can be sure that they will lose no more. I cannot see why the Financial Secretary thinks that that would be less fair to the stockholders.

I know that it would be welcomed by the stockholders and I venture to predict that with regard to election, even if it is a month beforehand, virtually the whole of the stockholders would so elect. I think that it would be only the stockholder who was unaware of the option who would not exercise it. The Financial Secretary said that, if the Government took this course so that cash could be issued instead of stock to those stockholders who so elected, it would be necessary for the Gas Council, with Government guarantee, to raise the necessary money in the market. Why not? That would be a perfectly normal and proper procedure.

The Government and Government-sponsored bodies are continually having to raise money in the market. Why should they be afraid' of it on this occasion? Is not the reason this? They want the stockholders to get something less than would be due to them under market conditions and to be in the position to do what they have done before—first of all to manipulate the market by pouring into it insurance funds, which should be invested on very different principles and which ought not to be thrown into action in support of a Bill of this kind. That is what they can do with a Measure of this kind. They first rig the market, and then cut the terms of the new stock so close that immediately the market opens this stock goes to a discount, and the stockholders have no chance of getting out at anywhere near par.

I cannot understand how, on any equitable consideration, the Financial Secretary can object to this proposal. If the stockholders are prepared to pay one-half of one per cent, premium to insure against any loss of capital, that should be, I feel, a fair deal from their point of view and also from the point of view of the Government. I have been shocked at the way in which the Financial Secretary has sought to hide and shelter himself and the Government and the Treasury behind the Governor of the Bank of England. We are only too familiar with the way in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has tried to shelter himself behind the National Debt Commissioners in another matter. It seems that the Treasury are always trying to shelter themselves behind somebody. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer really believes that his proposal is fair, why cannot he stand up and take full responsibility for it? I think it is evident that even he does not regard this proposal as fair, and, therefore, I hope the Amendment will be pressed to a Division.

5.45 p.m.

There is one point which I should like to put to the Financial Secretary that is over and above the immediate issue. If the Amendment is rejected, the Government are virtually saying to the whole of the gilt-edged market and to all the holders of Government securties, "We do not believe that in future Government stocks will retain their prices." That is much more important than the immediate issue of the holders of Gas Stock. There are many trustee investors at the present time who have the problem of investing trust funds in Government securities, and the question they often put is, "Shall we invest now or wait a little while to see whether Government securities fall? "It is frightfully important to the beneficiaries of trusts that the trustees shall act wisely when they invest.

If the Government refuse this very reasonable Amendment, they are giving notice to the whole of the gilt-edged market that it is their considered opinion that the gilt-edged market is going to fall still further. If they would accept the Amendment, they would be putting the hallmark on all Government securities at the present prices. It would be a gesture of confidence on the part of the Government to all the holders of British Government securities. But I say very seriously to the Financial Secretary that, quite apart from the gas side of the idea, if he refuses to accept this Amendment—and I hope that the financial Press will take hold of this—he is clearly saying that, in the Government's opinion, stocks are going to fall still further. I ask him to think about the matter from that angle alone.

There is one other point that I would like to make on this matter. The Financial Secretary accused us on this side of the Committee of having a vendetta against the present Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. We have no personal vendetta against him, even though we do not love him, but we have a vendetta against his dreadful policy, which we hate, as we are entitled to hate it. May I refer to what the Financial Secretary said on 16th April, 1947 with regard to compensation stock for nationalised industry:

This is a test of confidence in their own scheme. There is no escaping it. The Financial Secretary cannot escape his responsibilities. If he says "No" to this Amendment, he is clearly saying that "Daltons," which have dropped, as he well knows—£450 million of them—from par to about 76½, and are likely to fall another 25 points, will not recover. This is the other important wider aspect: if the Government say, "No, it is our opinion that Government stocks will never recover, and the people who put confidence in the Chancellor's promises a year ago and put money into 'Daltons' are for ever to be defrauded," there will be no hope of their getting their money back. If the Financial Secretary argues that "Daltons" 2½ per cent, may one day go back to par, at which they were issued, then obviously he should accept this Amendment with both hands, because it would give him 25 points profit on all the Gas Stock so issued. On those wider grounds, rather than the narrow grounds, I support this Amendment.

I am amazed that the Financial Secretary has not thought it necessary to make a more effective defence than he has on this very important Amendment. The arguments he deployed seemed to me to be most unconvincing, and I can only assume that he is preserving his strength for a later stage in the Debate. He seemed to argue that this Amendment imposed some hardship on vendors. That obviously is not so. It is an option, and the people to exercise the option would be those who were convinced that otherwise they would be "done down." There is no hardship whatsoever in that.

The Financial Secretary argued that everything was all right, because if the vendor was not happy he could sell his stock. But it is too late. That is the whole point. It is like somebody who has arranged to buy a motor car for £200 saying to the vendor, "I do not propose to pay you in cash but to give in exchange a horse which, on the date of completion of sale, will in my opinion be worth £200 "; the vendor says, "Last year your horses did not seem to be worth quite as much as you claimed. I do not think I want a horse," and the buyer says, "That is quite all right. When you get the horse you can sell it."

The Financial Secretary ought to have given us some more impressive arguments than he has given on this occasion. There is only one argument if the Government want to establish confidence that the compensation they are paying will be worth what they claim today, and that is to offer an alternative in cash to those who do not share the view of the Government that it will be worth what the Government say. Any other solution must involve an element of injustice. That I believe to be clear common sense. I am sure the public will reach the conclusion that the course the Government are adopting proves that the Government have no more confidence on this occasion that the compensation will be worth what they claim than on past occasions.

It seems to me that a moral issue is at stake. [Laughter.] The levity with which this and every aspect of the question has been treated by hon. Members opposite is not to their credit. I do not believe that any Government could reject this Amendment unless they were committed to the policy, motto and slogan, "Save and be robbed." This Amendment gives the shareholder in the gas industry an opportunity of selling his holding for cash at a slight discount. It surely follows, since no nationalised industry's stock has yet been sold at par, that if the Government refuse this opportunity to the present shareholders of gas undertakings, then those shareholders must suffer loss.

What is the objection to this Amendment in the minds of the Government? I am told that in the gas industry there are about 18,500 workers who are also shareholders in the industry. If that is not the correct figure, no doubt the Financial Secretary will contradict me. But whatever the figure, there is a substantial number of workers in the industry who, as shareholders, are financially involved. I ask the Financial Secretary to consider the moral issue at stake. I wounder how many hon. Members opposite have considered the effect of their financial policy on many modest homes and householders who have suffered severely as a result of what the Government have already done in the field of compensation where nationalised industries are concerned?

My right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) mentioned "Daltons" standing at £25 discount. Let me give hon. Members an illustration of the sort of thing which will now happen to shareholders in the gas industry unless this Amendment is accepted. In my constituency there is a typist in her fifties, who suffers from bad health, who listened to the appeals of the former Chancellor of the Exchequer and put a large part of her savings into "Daltons "2½ per cent. As a result she has lost a quarter of the capital which she had saved during 30 years of work; and whereas until recently she looked forward to retiring on account of her bad health, she now looks forward to another 10 years of work.

That is the kind of suffering for which hon. Members opposite are responsible; and that is the kind of suffering which they now intend to impose, again by force, upon the holders of shares in the gas industry today, regardless of the fact that thousands of them are not only workers in the gas industry but are people of very modest means. But all of that counts for nothing: nationalisation must go on, and people are to suffer merely because they have worked, have been thrifty and have saved. Then, of course, the Government deny that the Savings Movement is affected by what they are doing. If the stocks of nationalised industries cannot be, and never have been, sold at par, surely it is plain that the chances of this stock ever being sold at par are very slight. In these circumstances, it can only be a prejudiced, unfair and bigoted Government which would reject this Amendment.

We have had a very full Debate on this subject, and one which has shown a number of points which divide this side of the Committee from the Government. Before coming to those points, I must correct the Financial Secretary in one or two things that he said. He started by saying that the "Financial Times," in which my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) is interested, thought that the terms of compensation for the Transport Stock were fair. I have taken the trouble of going out and looking at the relevant copies of the "Financial Times," and I can assure the Financial Secretary that he is, as usual, far from correct. I will quote him just two sentences which I have taken from the issue of 2nd January, the day on which the terms were announced. The "Financial Times" said in their leader:

" Even so, the terms of the stock can do nothing to mask the fundamental inequality of the whole transaction."

That, unless it is what is called damning with faint praise, hardly seems to me to be approval. The leader goes on:

Stockholders have been expropriated at a price at which they had no say. But that they have been removed from their rights in definance of justice they will not forget."

Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman read from the beginning of the paragraph before the one he just read, starting at "The first reaction is.…"?

In this Committee I am still allowed to make my speech in my own way. If the hon. Gentleman had allowed me to finish he would have heard me say that the "Financial Times "leader had started by saying they were relieved to see that the stock had been issued at 3 per cent, arid not 2½ per cent, in accordance with some fetish. They went on to say that this must be accepted by the stock holders—

6.0 p.m.

Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman kindly read on? I do not want to make his speech for him, but would he read the paragraph beginning:

" The first reaction is that the Treasury has played the game. …"

and thereafter?

The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly correct. I have not the full quotation here. There are two things I would like to know. Which game have the Treasury played, and under what rules? If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the quotation again, he will see that all it says is that stockholders should be grateful that the terms were 3 per cent, and not 2½ per cent. It says nothing whatsoever about the major issue. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth is reading the cutting from the "Financial Times" now. He is doing what I did 10 minutes ago. The Financial Secretary cannot get away from the extremely damaging statement that the Treasury are swindling the stockholders. That is what the "Financial Times" has said.

The Financial Secretary condemned the Amendment by saying that there was a vendetta. There is no vendetta. The Amendment contains a simple proposition. If the Government intend to issue Gas Stock on terms and conditions which will command the confidence of the public, no investor will take advantage of the proposal in the Amendment. If, on the other hand, the Government do what they have done in the case of transport and electricity, which is first to rig the market and then to issue the shares on terms which mean of necessity that the stock will never sell at par, every investor will be able to take a different course. Does the Financial Secretary mean, by refusing to accept the Amendment, that the Treasury propose to rig the market again and not give the investor a chance? That is what he implied in his speech.

When the Financial Secretary came to the question which I raised as to where the money is to come from, he said that it would be impossible for the Gas Council to undertake that function, because it would make much too large a call on their reserves. Those are the words as I took them down. Let us look at what the Gas Council can borrow. They can borrow more than 300 per cent, above what the Heyworth Report recommended. If the House in its wisdom gives the Gas Council that power, some of the money can be made available as reserve to ensure that the unfortunate stockholder gets a fair deal. The Financial Secretary went on to say that we on this side of the Committee were assuming that Government stocks were always going to sink in value. We have no option but to think so. No nationalisation stock yet issued by the Government has sold at par. We have every reason to assume that Gas Stock will suffer the same fate, and that once again, it will stand at about 2½ per cent.

We do not want to make that assumption. All that we are saying to the Government in the Amendment is this: If you issue stock you must give the investor a chance of receiving Gas Stock before the vesting date, if he wishes." The Treasury have only to make it clear that they are going to issue Gas Stock at the proper price and with the proper redemption date, and nobody will take advantage of the Amendment. The only reason for the Government to refuse to accept the Amendment is that the investor is going to be swindled again. I am certain that the Financial Secretary will agree with me that the final decision will rest with the Chancellor of the Exchequer which means that it is a matter of Government policy.

After we have experienced the disastrous results in transport and electricity, it is not fair that we should once again inflict injustice upon the long-suffering small investor. I hope that my hon. Friends will take this matter to a Division in order to show that on this side of the Committee we are concerned very much about this matter. We are willing to believe that the Treasury will be fair, and that they will learn by their mistakes, but we are determined to stand by the principle that those who are to suffer from nationalisation shall have the option of getting out before they find their stocks on the down grade, like other nationalised Socialist stocks.

The Financial Secretary has raised, "hatched" is the proper word I suppose, so many hares this afternoon—[ Laughter. ] I do not know how hares breed, but the Financial Secretary has certainly given us a plentiful supply of them this afternoon. He has seriously interfered with the progress of the Bill. We are anxious to get on with the Bill. We are not in the least interested in the antecedents of Lord Catto, or with statements made in a paper which I certainly shall not attempt to advertise in this Committee, beyond saying that I read a leading article which contained the statement that the former Chancellor of the Exchequer was a stock-market rigger. I return the compliment to the Financial Secretary.

We have a great deal of business to do and we are not making proper progress. The blame for that must rest greatly on the amiable but flocculent Financial Secretary to the Treasury. If he thinks we shall be deterred from putting our case by his colleagues, the stampeding stock pushers from the Treasury, he is in error. I honestly think that it is better for us to have a Division. We have had a long speech from the Financial Secretary in which he sheltered behind Lord Catto, the late Lord Snowden's record as Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the price of Consols during the war. It was all irrelevant. We would like to get on with the Gas Bill. As the Government will not propose

that we should have a Division, may I be allowed to press for it now, and to suggest that as the Minister will not do his duty we ought to have an opportunity of voting.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 108; Noes, 307.

Division No. 196.]

AYES.

[6.9 p.m.

Airory, D. Heathcoat

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

Baldwin, A. E.

Howard, Hon. A.

Raikes, H. V.

Barlow, Sir J.

Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

Ramsay, Maj. S.

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

Hurd, A.

Rayner. Brig. R.

Birch, Nigel

Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

Reed, Sir S (Aylesbury)

Bower, N

Jeffreys, General Sir G.

Renton, D.

Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

Jennings, R.

Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

Lambert, Hon. G.

Ropner, Col. L.

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

Rose, Sir R, D. (Londonderry)

Bullock, Capt M.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Sanderson, Sir F.

Butcher, H. W.

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Savory, Prof. D. L.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Scott, Lord W.

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Low, A. R. W.

Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col G.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

Crcsthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Crowdor, Capt. John E.

Macdonald. Sir P. (I. of Wight)

Spearman, A. C. M.

Cuthbert, W. N.

McFarlane, C. S.

Spence, H. R.

Darling, Sir W. Y.

Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Davidson, Viscountess

McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Strauss, H. G (English Universities)

Digby, S. W.

Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

Studholme, H. G.

Dodds-Parker, A. D

Manningham-Buller, R. E.

Sutcliffe, H

Donner, P. W

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A (P'dd't'n, S.

Drewe, C.

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

Teeling, William

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

Thorneycroft, G. E. P (Monmouth)

Dulhie, W. S.

Molson, A. H. E.

Touche, G. C.

Eccles, O. M

Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T

Turton, R. H.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Morris-Jones, Sir H.

Walker-Smith, D.

Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

Ward, Hon, G. R.

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Morrison, Rt. Hen W. S. (Cirencester)

Watt Sir G. S. Harvie

Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

Mullan, Lt. C. H.

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

Nield, B. (Chester)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Fyfe, Rt Hon. Sir D. P. M

Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D.

Osborne, C.

York, C.

Glyn, Sir R.

Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

Young, Sir A. S L. (Partick)

Gridley, Sir A.

Pickthorn, K.

Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

Pitman, I. J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

Ponsonby, Col. C. E

Commander Agnew and Major Conant.

NOES

Acland, Sir Richard

Beswick, F.

Byers, Frank

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Callaghan, James

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

Bing, G. H. C.

Carmichael, James

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Binns, J.

Chamberlain, R. A.

Alien, Scholcfield (Crewe)

Blackburn, A. R.

Champion, A. J.

Alpass, J. H.

Blenkinsop, A.

Chater, D.

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Blyton, W. R.

Chetwynd, G. R.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Boardman, H.

Cluse, W. S.

Atlewell, H. C.

Bottomley, A. G.

Cobb, F. A.

Austin, H. Lewis

Bowden, Fig. Offr. H. W.

Cocks, F. S.

Awbery, S. S.

Bowen, R.

Coldrick, W.

Ayles, W. H.

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Collindridge, F.

Ayrton Gould, Mrs B

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

Collins, V. J.

Bacon, Miss A

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Colman, Miss G. M.

Balfour, A.

Bramall, E. A.

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Corbel, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W)

Barstow, P. G.

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Corlett, Dr. J.

Barton, C.

Brown, George (Belper)

Cove, W. G.

Battlcy, J. R.

Brawn, T. J. (Ince)

Crawley, A.

Bechervaise, A. E.

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Crossman, R. H. S.

Belcher, J. W.

Buchanan, Rt. Hon. G

Daggar, G.

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

Burden, T. W.

Daines, P.

Benson, G.

Burke, W. A.

Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

Berry, H.

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Royle, C.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

King, E. M.

Scollan, T.

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

Kinley, J.

Scott-Elliot, W.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Kirkwood, Rt. Hon. D.

Segal, Dr. S.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Lang, G.

Shackleton, E. A. A.

Deer, G.

Lawson, Rt Hon. J. J.

Sharp, Granville

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

Diamond, J.

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E

Dodds, N. N.

Leonard, W.

Shurmer, P.

Donovan, T.

Leslie, J. R.

Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

Dumpleton, C. W.

Levy, B. W.

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Durbin, E. F. M.

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

Dye, S.

Lindgren, G. S.

Simmons, C. J.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

Skeffington, A. M.

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Logan, D. G.

Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

Longden, F.

Skinnard, F. W.

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

Lyme, A. W.

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

McAdam, W.

Snow, J. W.

Evans, John (Ogmore)

McEntee, V. La T.

Solley, L. J.

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

McGhee, H. G.

Sorensen, R W.

Ewart, R.

McGovern, J.

Soskice, Sir Frank

Fairhurst, F.

Mack, J. D.

Sparks, J. A.

Farthing, W. J.

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Steele, T.

Fernyhough, E.

Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

Stokes, R. R.

Field, Capt. W. J.

McKinlay, A. S.

Stubbs, A. E.

Fletcher, E. G M (Islington. E.)

Maclean, N. (Govan)

Summerskilt, Dr Edith

Follick, M.

McLeavy, F.

Swingler, S.

Foot, M. M.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Sylvester, G. O.

Forman, J. C.

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

Symonds, A. L.

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Mann, Mrs J.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

Marquand, H. A.

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Gallacher, W.

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

Thomas, I. O (Wrekin)

George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

Medland, H. M.

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Gibbins, J.

Mellish, R. J.

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Gibson, C. W.

Messer, F.

Thurtle, Ernest

Gilzean, A.

Mitchison, G. R.

Tiffany, S.

Dlanville, J. E. (Consett)

Monslow, W.

Titterington, M. F.

Gooch, E. G.

Moody, A. S.

Tolley, L.

Goodrich, H. E.

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

Granville, E. (Eye)

Morley, R.

Turner-Samuels, M.

Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

Morris, Lt.-Col, H. (Sheffield, C)

Vernon, Maj. W. F.

Grenfell, D. R.

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Viant, S. P.

Grey, C. F.

Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

Wadsworth, G.

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Mort, D. L.

Walker, G. H.

Gruffydd, Prof. W. J.

Moyle, A.

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Guest, Dr. L. Haden

Murray, J. D.

Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

Gunter, R. J.

Nally, W.

Warbey, W. N.

Guy, W. H.

Naylor, T. E.

Watkins, T. E.

Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Watson, W. M.

Hale, Leslie

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col R

Oldfield, W. H.

West, D. G.

Hardman, D. R.

Oliver, G. H.

Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

Hardy, E. A.

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J. (Edinburgh, E.)

Harrison, J.

Palmer, A. M. F.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Haworth, J.

Pargiter, G. A

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Herbison, Miss M.

Parker, J.

Wigg, George

Holman, P.

Parkin, B. T.

Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Paton, J.(Norwich)

Wilkins, W. A.

Horabin, T. L.

Pearson, A.

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

House, G.

Perrins, W.

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Hoy, J.

Poole, Cecil (Lichfield)

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Hubbard, T.

Popplewell, E.

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

Proctor, W. T.

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Pursey, Cmdr. H

Willis, E.

Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Randall, H. E.

Wills, Mrs E. A.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Ranger, J.

Wise, Major F. J.

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Rankin, J.

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A

Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

Reeves, J.

Woods, G. S.

Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Wyatt, W.

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Rhodes, H.

Yates, V. F

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Richards, R.

Young, Sir R (Newton)

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

Ridealgh, Mrs. M

Jenkins, R. H.

Robens, A.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Mr. Joseph Henderson and

Keenan, W.

Robertson, J J. (Berwick)

Mr. Hannan.

Kendall, W. D.

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

I beg to move, in page 28, line 14, to leave out Subsection (2), and to insert:

The Amendment is designed to substitute "net maintainable income "for" Stock Exchange value," for we think that when an industry is taken over two things must be safeguarded: first, the capital value of the moneys invested by any particular person in the industry; secondly, if that person has invested the money on the assumption that he will get a certain return, the State should not take over that holding unless it will give him approximately the same return. Unless we safeguard both the capital invested and the income expected, we shall not fulfil something of which both the Financial Secretary and the Labour Party have spoken—that is, ensuring that compensation for nationalisation is fair. The Financial Secretary would be the first to agree that unless we fulfil what I have said, the compensation will not be fair.

When the Government came into power they said they would not necessarily follow from industry to industry the same form of compensation. In fact, it was made clear by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, on the Measure for the nationalisation of the Bank of England, that it was the intention of the Government to apply methods of compensation to suit each particular case as it came along. It was not until the Transport Bill that this particular method of Stock Exchange values was selected by the Government. It is interesting to look back to the Transport and Electricity Bills to see what the Government then said were the reasons for adopting this particular method. I have referred to the Debate on the Second Reading of the Transport Bill, which was the first time that Stock Exchange value was used. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he did so for various reasons. First, he thought the Stock Exchange was something that was right, but then he went on to admit: That was the opinion of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer of Stock Exchange quotations, a statement by, as I understand, the White Knight of Socialist finance—one whom the Financial Secretary is always rushing in to defend and, therefore, presumably ready to accept. The then Chancellor of the Exchequer went on to say that we could not use any other basis because of the poor lot of assets. I make the further quotation from HANSARD: As far as the gas industry is concerned, there is certainly no limited franchise and dividends are strictly controlled in every single type of gas undertaking. Neither of those points, therefore, can possibly be allowed. I will speak later about the administrative convenience.

When we come to the Gas Bill the Minister of Fuel and Power, in his long Second Reading speech, dismissed compensation merely by saying that so much had been said already and he was not going to say anything at all. If his statement is to be taken even as a literal half-truth, it can only refer back to what has been said previously about Stock Exchange quotations on the Electricity and Transport Bills. Not one single defence from those adduced by the Secretary of State for War or the late Chancellor can be applied to the gas industry. The right hon. Gentleman, therefore, did himself less than justice; obviously he had not prepared the case and would not appreciate what were the issues or what had been said by his colleagues on former occasions.

6.30 p.m.

We then come back to the last possible refuge of the right hon. Gentleman, administrative convenience. I have no doubt that if we want to rob somebody, it is probably administratively convenient to knock him on the head at the same time and kill him so that he cannot lodge information at the police station, but that is not a very good reason for taking away the property of one section of the community without paying adequate compensation. In Committee the Financial Secretary said:

There is the situation. What the Financial Secretary is asking us to believe is that the Stock Exchange rates at any moment are a proper basis between what he calls a willing buyer and a willing seller, but he must know that whereas a quotation at any moment may show a willing buyer or a willing seller, unless a transaction has occurred, it means that the price has not been accepted by either side. Apparently that was never considered until we moved an Amendment in Committee about scale quotations. The Financial Secretary first refused to accept the Amendment but then admitted that he was wrong, and there is now an Amendment on the Order Paper in the name of the Minister of Fuel and Power.

I do not believe that even now the Financial Secretary realises how few shares in the gas industry are quoted on the Stock Exchange. There are 800 gas companies, and of these, only seven companies have all their shares quoted on the relevant dates mentioned in the Bill, and only 35 more have part of their shares quoted on the relevant dates. Even on the most liberal interpretation only some 5 per cent, of the companies involved have their shares quoted on the Stock Exchange. It needs a great deal of justification to say that one should take over an industry on the basis of figures relating to only 5 per cent, of the companies involved. Equally, 3,000 securities are quoted. On the relevant dates only 97 of them appear, which is only one-thirtieth of the total. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that that is a fair proportion and something on which, so far as his own private interests are concerned, he Would care to form a judgment? I doubt it very considerably.

Despite these facts—many of them have been quoted before—the Financial Secretary has throughout said that he is satisfied with the basis. He reminds me very much of the Tommy whose proud mother saw him marching past and said that every one was out of step except Tommy. The Financial Secretary will be the first to admit that, because the Stock Exchange Council, who should know their job, are the first to say that their quotations do not in any shape or form represent the value of the assets of any of the companies of which quotations are made. A statement made by the Council on 12th December, 1946; said that the Stock Exchange quotations are not related directly to the value of the company's assets or the amount of its profits. Perhaps the Stock Exchange Council, being merely the organ which directs the affairs of that body, will not be so acceptable to hon. Gentlemen opposite as the Trades Union Congress. Perhaps they will pay more attention to the Trades Union Congress. The report of the Trades Union Congress in 1944 talks about taking over industries on the basis of the Stock Exchange quotations. Talking about the market value of shares and stocks, it says:

Examples were given during the Committee stage and I have two which have occurred recently. There was the case of Short Brothers in which the Government were compulsorily acquiring the shares and where the difference between what the Government paid and what those shares were valued as representing the assets of the company was something like 40 per cent. There is also the case of the Peninsular and Oriental Steamship Company whose shares stand on the Stock Exchange at something like 12s. less than their break-up value at the present time. Whether one likes to take it, as in the case of Short Brothers, on the basis of the value to the community, or, as in the case of the P. & O., on the basis of the value to the stockholder, only one thing emerges without possible contradiction and that is that the Stock Exchange values are quite inappropriate for the purpose.

This Amendment is based on what the Trades Union Congress have said. We have tried to impress the Government with various alternatives in previous stages but this one is deliberately taken from the 1944 Report submitted to their party and passed, in which the Trades Union Congress say that: "net maintainable revenue is the proper basis on which an industry should be taken over." They say that for reasons with which I sympathise. They say, for instance, that it would be all wrong to pay on Stock Exchange values an exorbitant sum for an industry which had a monopoly and therefore could earn grossly inflated profits and could show on the Stock Exchange a grossly inflated price. What they recommended, and what we recommend here, is that in the case of the gas industry the proper net maintainable revenue should be ascertained. It is perfectly easy. In most cases it is laid down by statute. To that should be added a multiplier based, as it has been done in the past, on the number of years such stock could in the opinion of the arbitration tribunal be guaranteed to produce a dividend. Together those would form the basis of the compensation.

However little we have impressed the Government in the past, we hope that by moving this Amendment we can do three things. We can strive to ask the Government to answer these questions. First, if a case has been made about transport and electricity in which every single argument made does not apply to this industry, how is it possible to dismiss the whole question of compensation, as the Minister did, by saying that we have argued the case before? In justice we must have some sort of argument that will show why this basis has been adopted. When the Government have answered that, I would like them to say what is the basis of justice for assuming that Stock Exchange valuations are correct. They have against them every known authority, the Stock Exchange Council, the Trades Union Congress, the well known decisions in the Law Courts. They have nothing on their side at all except the ex parte statement of the Financial Secretary.

I will conclude by saying that throughout the last three years Members of the Government have stood at the Box opposite and, time after time, they have said that it would be a travesty of Socialist policy if the compensation to be paid was not fair. So far, in every single industry, they have laid themselves open to the easily proved charge that compensation has not been fair. This time I hope they will adopt the basis which is known to be fair, which both the Trades Union Congress and those other authorities have recommended, and which at least in this case assure a fair deal to the stockholder.

I would like to say a few words in support of the able and comprehensive speech made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for New Forest (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre), and I hope that his peroration will do what it was designed to do—stimulate the Financial Secretary to try to put up some reasoned case for what he is doing, because so far he has never done so. In particular, on this Bill he became perfectly pettish upstairs and showed some of the reckless anger of a mouse in a trap when he said, "I, for one, am heartily sick of it." Of course, people who are in gaol for 20 years get heartily sick of it. I have no doubt that the Home Secretary gets heartily sick of being pointed out as having committed a dishonourable fraud in the Representation of the People Bill. After all, when one has done wrong, one is not happy to discuss the subject of one's sin.

I will not enlarge on that, Major Milner. I was desiring to urge the Financial Secretary to give some reasonable answer to the points made, and I would like to back up one or two of them. The first and far the most important point here is that this is a ludicrous suggestion in the case of an industry, very few of whose securities are quoted at all, and not upon the relevant dates, where very few of the companies have a free market in those shares, and where the shares that are quoted are mainly of companies operating in London and, therefore, influenced by war damage, evacuation, and many other matters. The relevant figure is that the total number of securities to be valued is 3,000, and the total number quoted on the relevant dates is 97. That means that less than 5 per cent. of the securities which have to be valued in this way will be valued directly by the Stock Exchange quotation, and the rest of them will simply be allotted a notional price which will require calculation, based on the idea of what might have happened if they had been quoted on the Stock Exchange.

6.45 p.m.

The fact that this is a ridiculous way of doing things is tacitly admitted by the Government in their Amendment in page 28, line 39, where they cut out certain stocks which have not had any market at all. So they are really saying that the thing is nonsense but that they will continue with it. As my hon. and gallant Friend pointed out, both the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the present Secretary of State for War have put up wholly different reasons for this type of compensation—and they are, of course, the sun and moon of the movement—but neither of the things they said had any reference either to the cases in which they were urging them or to this case, and we require some reasonable answer from the right hon. Gentleman. The difference between a Stock Exchange quotation, which represents the balance between the buyers and sellers on any one day, and the worth of a business is a large one, as the right hon. Gentleman will have found if he has ever tried to buy a business quoted on the Stock Exchange. It is not comparing like with like in any way.

Lastly, the great principle we have contended for throughout all these Debates is a simple one, that it should not be open to the Government to say, "We will do it this way, and this is what it is worth as far as we are concerned." There is only one way of doing this. It is that the businesses shall be valued by an independent tribunal which has not either the interest of the Government or of the stockholders at heart; that is to say, independent people who can value the businesses on proper principles. The Government themselves have many times adopted that. They adopted it in the case of the non-statutory electricity undertakings. They adopted it in the case of Cable and Wireless and, in a certain form, they adopted it in the case of the coalmining industry. Why, once having adopted it, they take their hand off the plough and start fiddling about with some other instrument, I do not know, and we require a proper explanation and justification. The right hon. Gentleman may have been tired of the Committee upstairs but, as was said, he did not quite do justice to himself. He has been holding himself in strict check today, and we hope he will throw the yoke off his neck and gallop away on the explanation which the Committee desires.

I also live in hopes, although they are often dispelled, that the right hon. Gentleman may be persuaded to meet a reasonable point of view. I do not often deal with finance but I feel bound strongly to support this Amendment. There is one significant feature regarding it and regarding the attitude taken by the T.U.C. In their 1944 Report, which was afterwards accepted by their Congress in 1945, that organisation came down for net maintainable revenues as against Stock Exchange prices for nationalised industries. They did so at a significant time, because 1944 and 1945 were just before Election time. Without being in any way offensive, I think it is true to say that when round about a General Election vast changes are sought to be made in regard to the structure of industry, those anxious to make them are probably honestly interested to see to it that the shareholders and stockholders in industry can be persuaded to vote for nationalisation because they think they will get fair treatment when the time comes.

It was significant that net maintainable revenue was laid down very strongly by the T.U.C. at that period. It was long before the time of the "tinker's cuss. "The" tinker's cuss "came in a period when elections were far away, but we are now reaching a time not so very far distant from a General Election, such as the time when the 1944 report of the T.U.C. was written. I hope that curious fact in regard to the period of time may encourage the Government to look to the minds of the T.U.C. in regard to stockholders in 1944 in considering stockholders in 1948 in the same mood, knowing that a General Election is not so very far distant.

It would not be inadvisable to remind the Financial Secretary of the actual observations made on net maintainable revenue in the Report of the T.U.C. in 1944. They said:

In this Amendment we have tried, as we always try, to be reasonable. We shall be very reasonable all through the night. Like the Financial Secretary, whose greatest charm is his geniality, we shall continue to put forward our arguments without heat, but we shall put them forward until they are heard. Here we have tried to meet the Government point of view on electricity as far as we could, and also the view of the T.U.C, which seems so extremely applicable to this particular case. We favour the T.U.C. in avoiding Stock Exchange prices, which we maintain are far less fair to gas than to any other industry. I hope the Financial Secretary will reply to the points made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for New Forest and Christchurch on the difference between gas and electricity. We maintain that the T.U.C. are right on gas to avoid Stock Exchange prices but we agree with the Government principle of valuing security in statutory undertakings. We do that because of the limitations of the control in statutory undertakings.

This is a reasonable Amendment, which, if the vast army of trade union Members of this House were sitting opposite—as they might well be because they would learn quite a lot—would cause their hearts to beat to the old suggestions of the T.U.C. in 1944. We shall be greatly pleased if at the end of the Debate we find that the Financial Secretary has found the error of Stock Exchange prices and even heard the voice of his old friends of the T.U.C. that there are better methods of dealing with this and that net maintainable revenue is the only fair way to deal with this utterly complex matter. I hope to see him rise and, for once, bless us.

It is quite true, as the hon. Member for Wavertree (Mr. Raikes) said, that the Trades Union Congress did suggest that net maintainable revenue was a good basis for compensation when an industry was nationalised. I find no fault with that, if the industry taken over is of the kind where that formula can be applied, and applied with expedition and justice to all concerned. But, in "Let us Face the Future," although the Labour Party, to which I belong, did indicate at the last Election that it intended, if returned to this House, to take over on behalf of the community certain industries and services and that fair compensation should be paid, it did not lay down that the compensation should be based on net maintainable revenue in every instance.

If my memory serves me right, the Labour Party did no more than say—and apparently the electorate accepted it as sufficient—that it would pay just and fair compensation. On behalf of the electors, we have now taken over a lengthening list of industries and services. Where it has been possible, and where it was obviously the right thing to do, we have adopted the basis of net maintainable revenue for which the hon. Member for Wavertree has so eloquently pleaded. It has, however, always been our case that with some of these industries it was impossible to take this basis in existing circumstances and that we have, therefore, had to take some other basis which is just as good, and just as fair. I know that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have always refused to accept our contention that the basis chosen, that of Stock Exchange value on a given date or dates, was a fair one. But we thought and still think that it is the only fair basis available.

7.0 p.m.

Therefore, I can only repeat what has been said before and what is well known in every quarter of the Committee. It would have been unfair if we had taken an arbitrary date or dates or an average of such dates, and we have therefore taken two series of dates and have agreed that whichever provides the better average should be the date applicable when the price is fixed. One series of dates taken refers to the period before the General Election results were known, and when it could not be said, by any stretch of the imagination, that the Labour Party would be returned, and when it was generally supposed that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) would be returned with a great following. The second series of dates relates to a period just before the King's Speech in which it was announced that the gas industry would be nationalised. It is obviously reasonable to take those dates for the Stock Exchange quotations, where such quotations are available, or, where they are not quoted, to proceed by arbitration or agreement between those concerned.

I would again like to say that, if it had been possible, as it was in the case of other industries, to have taken the net maintainable revenue as basis, we should have had no objection to doing that. We want to be fair to those concerned.

Would the right hon. Gentleman explain to the Committee the reasons why it is not possible to take that basis?

Why was the basis of net maintainable revenue applied in the case of the industries to which it was applied?

In one of those industries, it was impossible to take the Stock Exchange value. I should be out of Order if I attempted to deal with that point, but the hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir J. Mellor) is not as simple as he appears to be. He knows very well why it was then a reasonable thing to do. In that case, in arriving at the net maintainable revenue basis, certain things had to be done, and a judge had to make a global assessment.

I wish to come back to the aim of the Amendment which we are considering and to say, that in our view, the basis being taken is reasonable and fair to the stockholders concerned. After all, all the stockholder is concerned with is the value of his particular security, and it is common knowledge that the value of a particular security to an individual is the amount which that security would fetch as between a willing buyer and a willing seller, if the holder wanted to sell it.

The hon. and gallant Member mentioned Short Brothers, and I understood him to deduce from the findings of Mr. Justice Evershed in that case that the basis we are taking is a basis which ought not at any time to be taken and that, when Mr. Justice Evershed came to fix the compensation, he went outside the Stock Exchange value in some way. Mr. Justice Evershed indicated that, in order to arrive at the true value of the assets, it would, of course, be an excellent thing if the assets could be valued. We have never denied that that is one way of arriving at the value, but we believe that we can arrive a the same goal by other methods. In fact, Mr. Justice Evershed himself arrived at the goal in the case of Short Brothers by giving compensation which, in the end, after the valuation had taken place, amounted to just about the value of the relevant shares as quoted on the Stock Exchange. The claim for is. 9d. was grossly excessive, and what was actually awarded was about what the shares were worth.

Therefore, reasonable people, realising that here we are dealing with individual stockholders whose only interest in the industry in which they have securities is in the value of the securities themselves, will agree that the average value as quoted is a good indication of what that value should be. This is how it seems to us, and we believe that this basis of value should be taken in this Bill. I can only repeat what has been said by my right hon. Friend and by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power in previous Debates on this matter upstairs. We believe that the method laid down in the Bill is a simple straightforward one which does justice and which should be accepted by the Committee as fair and reasonable.

If the right hon. Gentleman believes his last sentences, he will believe anything. Let me say at once that this is a matter which cannot be dealt with by the sort of speech which we have, just heard from the Financial Secretary. There is a great deal of expert opinion here tonight, and I am bound to tell him that it will be expressed. What did the Financial Secretary say in reply to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre)? He made some patronising references to the T.U.C., agreed that they had issued a statement which was before the Blackpool Conference, and said it was not in "Let us Face the Future." That, he thought, was quite an adequate way of dealing with the argument put forward by the T.U.C. in their better days that net maintainable revenue was the fairest way of dealing with the gas industry. Of course, it is.

The Financial Secretary agreed tonight that net maintainable revenue is the best rule to follow. He explained that the Government have not had time to follow the rule. What is the meaning of that? Who forced the Government to rush in to nationalise the gas industry? There is plenty of time. If the Financial Secretary wants to be fair and to follow his belief in the net maintainable revenue principle, there is plenty of time for him now to suspend our deliberations and really work out the financial consequences of net maintainable revenue. Are gas stockholders—and they number some millions of citizens in this country, mostly people in humble circumstances—to pay the price of an over-busy Government? Surely justice lies in sticking to the principle of net maintainable revenue, which was accepted by the T.U.C. and, oddly enough, by the Financial Secretary. But he says, "We have no time to adopt it." I do not think that any Minister in this House in its long history has used such language. If net maintainable revenue is just, let there be justice to the million or two stockholders who are being affected by this Bill. The Government are in a hurry. That is the only reason by which they can justify this abominable swindle.

I do not think we can have accusations of that kind from the right hon. Gentleman.

I am making no accusation. I am saying that this type of legislation is a swindle, and I do not think that that is unparliamentary. It has been mentioned many times in Committee and elsewhere, and if I could think of a better or worse word, I should be glad to use it. I cannot see that the word is unparliamentary. Certainly, it is a word which has been used so often about this Bill that it is rather late in the day to discover that it is unparliamentary. If I look around, I cannot think—

The right hon. Gentleman knows that moderation in language is one of the characteristics of this Chamber. I hardly think that the right hon. Gentleman is serious in his accusation, and, frankly, I do not think it is a desirable word to use here.

If you, Major Milner, think I have used harsh language, I must admit that, perhaps, in a way it is harsh, but my feelings are greatly affected by the fact that some millions of people in this country are to lose a large part of their savings. If I were the President of U.N.O. and had a capacity for a language like, say, the Taos language, where one can say one word and find 57 satisfactory meanings to it, I would be able to find a substitute for these words; but at the moment I can only accuse the Government of taking away the savings of millions of people in this country with no possible sort of justification, except the casual one, chucked across to us by the Financial Secretary, that the Government have really not had time to attend to the principle of net maintainable revenue.

The Financial Secretary gave us a little lecture on Stock Exchange values. We heard these arguments upstairs. The Financial Secretary came one morning briefed with some stuff from the Treasury about the essential verities of Stock Exchange values. I had an easy method of dealing with him on that occasion because I read out, for his benefit and for the benefit of the Minister, the view of the Stock Exchange Council about what are called Stock Exchange quotations. The Council denounced the view that Stock Exchange quotations should be regarded as the proper valuation for various stocks and shares under their control.

Could the right hon. Gentleman tell us why Stock Exchange values are taken as the basis of Death Duties?

I think that that funereal inquiry is an interesting one. It so happens—and the hon. and learned Gentleman had better listen to me—that the Board of Inland Revenue do not always accept Stock Exchange values. Quite otherwise. In his extensive legal practice the hon. and learned Gentleman may have come across cases where the Board of Inland Revenue have staunchly refused to do so. But I refuse, in my anxiety to get on with public Business, to follow the hares raised by the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) or anyone else. [

The Stock Exchange Council having declared that they cannot accept share quotations as a fair value, it is absurd for the Financial Secretary to say that, nevertheless, they are a fair basis for compensation. I have a feeling that the Government have completely run out of arguments in dealing with the points we raised upstairs. I also have a feeling that I have dealt with less than, say, one-fifth of the arguments that might be put forward against this Bill. On this side of the Committee we have people whose lives have been spent on the Stock Exchange, dealing with all matters affecting the valuation of securities. We also have the benefit of lawyers of eminence. Many of them are better equipped than I am to deal with this point. Though they may not emulate the moderation of my language, they should have the opportunity of putting the case against this particular outrage against investors. I do hope that they will accept a word of encouragement from me. This is perhaps the most important of all the aspects of this Bill, and it should be dealt with very thoroughly indeed.

7.15 p.m.

May I say a word on the question of this Stock Exchange valuation and the attendant circumstances in which the ordinary man in the street is to be compensated? I wish to make the point that in the case of debentures, which have already been worked out on Stock Exchange quotations, there seems to be the likelihood that investors will lose about 15 per cent.; on preference shares 20 to 25 per cent. and on ordinary shares about 30 per cent. A great many of the shareholders in the gas industry are small people with a small amount of capital, who have invested their funds in their local gasworks because it was a solid asset which they saw every day. They might use the products from it, and many of them worked at the gasworks. It is essentially a local investment, invested in by local people, and they are to suffer a loss of income of from 15 to 30 per cent.

The Financial Secretary might say that that is not necessarily the case, and that they are free when they get Government stock to sell it and to re-invest in something else. I suggest that many of them will not do so. They know that it would cost money to pay stockbrokers and to purchase stamps, and all the other expenses attendant upon an exchange of investments. They do not wish to spend that money, and they have no real experience in investments. Their money will remain, therefore, invested in the Government stock handed over to them, and they will have rather bitter thoughts about it. The reason for their original investment was to obtain what they hoped would be a permanent maintainable revenue. That is exactly what has now been reduced so drastically by a quarter or a third.

That applies to many small shareholders and co-partners who have been induced, by a very excellent system of co-partnership, to invest their savings in gas companies. I feel that there is a hardship entailed as a result of this valuation, and for that reason I very much hope that this Amendment will be further considered. I am certain that it could be adopted without any really drastic change in the Bill. We have gone a long way to meet the right hon. Gentleman. We have not put forward an Amendment on the lines of the Amendment we moved on the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill. I would have preferred that, but that was, perhaps, too much to ask, and we wanted to put something that was acceptable.

It seems to me that the reason Stock Exchange valuations are used for Death Duties is that people die much more often than the whole assets of the gas industries are valued. The second point is that Death Duties involve only the valuation of a very small part of an industry—that is, only the holdings of the man who dies. In this case however, we are valuing the whole of the industry. For those reasons, I hope that this matter will be further considered. Great hardship will be caused. We continue to stress the point of the small shareholder, but it is true that the gas industry, perhaps more than any other industry, is comprised of small shareholders. They will suffer considerably from this action by the Government.

I had no intention of making a speech today, partly because, as hon. Members may notice, my voice is rapidly failing and largely because I had thought that after those long, and I am sure interesting, nights spent by the Standing Committee considering this matter, with so many experts among them, there would be nothing left to say. However, after listening to the Financial Secretary, it became apparent to me that the Government are acting under a misapprehension. I know the right hon. Gentleman well. I have often found him to be fallible, but always sincere. I have every reason to believe that the Government are labouring under a perfectly honest misapprehension.

In a capacity to which I cannot devote much time now, I happen to have had a good deal of experience in dealing with shares in gas and water companies. I can only say that to apply a general rule for valuing to the gas industry is entirely wrong. I am not trying to make any case about whether it is fair or unfair to value stocks and shares for nationalisation purposes by a Stock Exchange valuation in general. What may be right for a railway share or a tobacco share is not necessarily right for the share in a gas company. I go further and say that there are some shares in gas companies in which there is a fairly free market in which it might or might not be fair; but the case is quite different from that of other stocks.

In gas, and also in water, there are a large number of very small companies, and very small amounts of stock often come on offer in the market. Those amounts of stock are immeasurably smaller than those involved in the normal Stock Exchange transaction. They may be amounts of £50 or £60. There are few people who want to buy those stocks. Therefore, what happens is that the jobber in the market accumulates them. He buys them at a figure far below the market price and makes a big profit in compensation for the time he must hold them—and it may be a very long time. Consequently, the difference in price between a large and a small amount of stock is entirely different.

To take an extreme example, the price of shares in the Imperial Tobacco Company is more or less the same whether one is dealing in £50 or £5,000 worth of them. I say without doubt that if somebody came to me and offered £50 worth of a gas stock, which is quite an ordinary amount, the price at which I could place it would be a great deal—perhaps £1 or £2 —below what it would be if the amount was an appreciably larger one, because then it would be valuable for the institutions who want to buy it. That explains the difference in price. That is also true in the case of water stock. I exclude certain big companies such as the Gas Light and Coke Company.

If the Government do what they have suggested, they must realise that most emphatically they will be acting in an extremely unfair way and that the people they will hurt most will be the smallest holders. Where big amounts of shares are held the Stock Exchange price is not so inadequate, but it is inadequate in the case of small amounts. This matter is frightfully important. Every Socialist could join in saying that it is of enormous importance from an international point of view that the Government should not act in a way that is unfair. On the last occasion when I was in New York and Washington, I talked about nationalisation, and the American people with whom I talked said, "We do not like nationalisation, but that is no business of ours. We will not criticise another country for what they choose to do. Where we would criticise them would be if they started confiscation; if they started nationalisation on an unfair basis." There is no doubt in my mind that in the case of gas or water stocks the basis on which the Government are working is grossly unfair. I beseech them, from a very broad point of view, to reconsider the whole question and to treat the stocks on a different basis.

I think that the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Michison) showed the ignorance which many people have on these matters. He raised the question of valuation for Death Duty purposes. In dealing in shares which are marketable—and 90 per cent, of Stock Exchange shares are marketable—then the Stock Exchange value it an easy one at which to arrive. When dealing with things like this, the Stock Exchange valuation is not the last market value. Jobbers in the Stock Exchange would value the shares at quite a different price from that at which they had last been marketed. That would be no criterion. If the Government carry out their present plan they will be acting in a grossly unfair way which will hit particularly the smaller people.

My hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Spearman) has pointed out that, as it refers to the gas industry, the Stock Exchange basis of valuation is inherently unfair. I hope that what he has said has made a great impression, on both sides of the Committee. The general unfairness of taking Stock Exchange value as a basis for valuation of gas shares has been referred to by several of my hon. Friends. It was so generally admitted before the introduction of this Bill that I have no doubt that many documents could be found, some emanating from quarters which have nothing to do with this side of the Committee, to prove that the Stock Exchange cannot be regarded as a fair criterion. I have here a document—I have no doubt that it is one of many—called, "The British Gas Industry—Present and Future "and published by Fabian Publications, Limited. This could not be said to be a very Right Wing document. In page 28 of that document it is said:

7.30 p.m.

The real difference is whether the valuation to be taken is to be one arrived at by some independent party or by an arbitrary decision on the part of the Government. The Financial Secretary repudiated the idea of picking a particular date for the Stock Exchange valuation as fair, and he admitted in his speech that to do so would be arbitrary and unfair, but he went on to suggest that, if we took two or three days and offered a choice, it at once ceased to be arbitrary and became fair. Of course, that is nonsense. The highwayman says "Your money or your life," and that does not make his challenge in any sense more fair.

The mere fact that the Government offer a choice of dates makes their position no less arbitrary than if they put in one single date. It may be that it will increase the amount a little, but the result still remains arbitrary, and our objection to the method chosen by the Government is that they insist on being the judge in their own cause. They insist on taking over this property at a value which they themselves place upon the property, and whether that value is good or bad, the principle of doing that is wrong. The right way to take over property is by getting some third party with no interest in either side to say what is fair as between the Government and the owner of the securities concerned.

The main purpose of our Amendment is to secure fair arbitration on the value of the securities taken over, and there are two possible criteria, either the capital actually invested or the expectation of income to be derived from these securities. Everyone will agree that we would like to give some weight to the first of these considerations, but, on the whole, it is difficult, and we recognise the difficulties which the Government have pointed out. So, in this Amendment, we have not sought to give any weight to that, but, on the other hand, have sought to base the principle on the authorised maintainable income, multiplied by a number of years' purchase. There is no real difficulty about carrying out a scheme of that sort.

The argument put forward by the Financial Secretary was palpably untrue. There is no real difficulty in giving effect to this Amendment. In fact, I would say that, apart from the 97 cases where there are quoted investments, the general principle that we put down here would be a great deal simpler than the method proposed by the Government. We are not asking that there should be arbitration on the question of what is the expected income. We have put down a quite definite basis which I think would be accepted as being reasonably fair. That basis is, I agree, a little artificial; perhaps we are a little infected by the Government's own attitude to this matter, but we have done that in order to avoid complications.

The only variable element in our scheme is the number of years' purchase to be taken. That is a very simple question, to be decided quite quickly by arbitration. The Financial Secretary spoke of months, but I think he will find that, before valuation under this Bill comes to fruition, it will be a great deal more than months which will have passed, in any event. Our proposals follow the welltrodden path which I understand local authorities have hitherto followed in taking over compulsorily gas undertakings privately owned. The general method proposed in our Amendment has almost always been effective, and there has not been any difficulty or any protracted arbitration. There have been no complaints on either side, and there is no suggestion that it involves over-payment or that it leads to any kind of abuse whatever.

There really is no substance in the defence which the right hon. Gentleman sought to put up against our Amendment. The Amendment means that those who receive compensation, even if they get less than they would have got under the Government's proposals, will get an amount awarded to them by some independent person who can say what is fair as between two parties. It is the element of fairness upon which we insist and which is included in our Amendment, and I hope we shall press it to a Division

I must say that I cannot agree with those hon. Members opposite who suggest that there is really anything new to say or to answer on this subject. I have listened very carefully to the speeches which have been made, and I can honestly say that I have not heard anything new or anything which was not quite familiar before. We have had Debates on this question on the Second Reading of the Transport Bill and the Electricity Bill. I agree that, in the case of my speech on the Second Reading of the Gas Bill, I referred to it only in passing, but we have had other Debates in Committee on both those Bills and on the Report stage of those Bills in which this question has been fully discussed. It would, indeed, be surprising if there was much more to be said on the subject. Therefore, I will only briefly repeat the Government's case and take up a number of familiar points made by hon. Members opposite.

One of the arguments put forward, and one which is implicit in this Amendment, is that the Stock Exchange basis for compensation is wrong because it means that an individual suffers loss of income. I confess to great surprise that hon. Members still put that argument forward. Of course, it is true that if, say, the holder of ordinary shares, who was previously getting a yield of 5 per cent., is compensated in Government stock at par and only receives 3 per cent., he will get £3 in place of £5 in income. The stock which he sells bears an uncertain income, but what he will get, at exactly the same price, is a certain income from Government stock. It is perfectly clear that, if the income were to be maintained, we could not avoid giving the ordinary security holder a very substantial capital gain, and nobody on the other side of the Committee at any time has explained how that could be avoided. It has also been said that the loss of income can be avoided by re-investing the money, and, equally, there is no answer to that.

Has not the right hon. Gentleman read the Amendment? It refers to a number of years' purchase.

I am speaking of the implication of the Amendment, and I was referring to the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for East Grinstead (Colonel Clarke), who spoke on this point. Reference has been made to the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act. Judging from the Parliamentary Questions which I get on the subject of compensation under that Act, I am surprised that hon. Members should suggest that that method is appropriate. In any case, the circumstances are completely different in the two industries. In the case of coal, the Government, or the National Coal Board, were not taking over all the assets of a company, but certain specific assets, and we could not adopt the Stock Exchange method of compensation, which would not have been in the least appropriate; hence the very turgid and long procedure which we have to go through.

In this case, as in the case of electricity and transport, all the assets of the companies are being taken over. All the liabilities are being taken over as well, except, of course, the liabilities of stockholders, and for that reason it is only the stockholders who require to be compensated. In fact, the problem is one of personal compensation—the problem of how much loss the individual stockholder and shareholder suffers. It is on that basis that we approach the problem. We say: there are these stocks and shares, and there is a free market for them. I do not wish to be drawn into the rather narrower point of exactly how free the market is, whether the shares have been quoted sufficiently frequently, and so on. That will arise on a later Amendment. The fact remains that the Stock Exchange is a free market on which transactions take place, and when transactions do not take place, at least the jobbers have to estimate what they think the value of the shares would be. There we have something which seems to me immensely to simplify the whole process.

The hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Spearman) referred to the difference between large and small shareholders. I may not have followed him very closely in this matter, perhaps. I can understand the difficulty of the small shareholder in paying perhaps a larger commission than a larger shareholder, but I cannot see that taking the Stock Exchange price of the shares in general, which may belong to large or small shareholders, can possibly affect them differently.

May I explain what I meant? It is quite clear from the Minister's reply when he said that he had already examined this matter in great detail in the case of electricity, railways and other things, that he does not appreciate the entire difference between the gas companies and the other companies which have been nationalised. That is the point I was trying to raise.

In the first place, it is quite true, as the hon. Member said, that a very high proportion of the number of individual stocks are, in fact, not quoted, and, therefore, will be not determined under the part of the Clause with which this Amendment deals. At least, I take it that the Amendment is not concerned to deal with unquoted shares. The question as to which share are quoted—where the quotations are appropriate, and so on—will arise on a later Amendment, and had better be left until then. It does not seem to me to be an argument which we should take seriously to say that there is a large proportion of individual stocks which are not quoted, and that, therefore, we should not take the Stock Exchange basis of valuation for those that are quoted. It is much simpler when there is a Stock Exchange quotation, but if there is not a Stock Exchange quotation we have to adopt another method.

In the case of gas companies it often happens that very small amounts indeed go on offer, which nobody wants to buy because they are too small and inconvenient. Therefore, the jobber has to accumulate them, and he will only buy them by the point below the price. We have two different prices—the price for a sizeable amount, and the price for a small amount. In general, the Stock Exchange quotations are for the small amounts because the big amounts rarely come on offer. In those cases one is going on a false hypothesis.

That point arises on a later Amendment. The hon. Gentleman was not a member of the Standing Committee, and, therefore, would not be so familiar with the Order Paper. The fact that the proportion of individual stocks, by number, which are quoted on the Stock Exchange is small does not seem to me to be any reason for abandoning the Stock Exchange basis of valuation. As the Financial Secretary said, the proportion by total value is much higher, being about two-thirds. Even in the case of electricity, we had a large number of stocks which were not quoted. As a matter of fact, very satisfactory arrangements to both parties were reached regarding their valuation.

The hon. Baronet the Member for South Hendon (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth) and other hon. Members said that what the Opposition really feel is that there should be some independent body to decide these matters. Of course, there are circumstances in which an arbitration tribunal is clearly appropriate, when a decision is

in any way a matter of law and of equity in the legal sense. But we are here dealing with something which is essentially a matter of principle. Even in the case of this Amendment, fairly elaborate instructions have to be given to the arbitration tribunal. We say that in a matter of this kind there must be an individual valuation—not that it need be carried out by an independent individual, but that we have an individual market valuation waiting for us; therefore, why not adopt it? Why go through the whole process of setting up tribunals when there is ready to hand an example of the price at which a willing buyer and a willing seller will exchange these stocks for cash?

7.45 p.m.

That seems to us to be an overwhelming argument for the Stock Exchange method of valuation. As I say, I cannot see that there is anything unfair about it. I must honestly say that one of the things that has most astonished me in the last two years has been the outcry from the Opposition regarding this method of compensation. Some of my hon. Friends might well have objected to it as being too favourable to the stockholders, but for the Opposition to claim that it is unfair seems to me quite absurd. I do not agree with hon. Members opposite. I think it is quite fair, and on that account I am afraid we must very firmly reject this Amendment.

rose in his place, and claimed to move. " That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 291; Noes, 93.

Division No. 197.]

AYES

7.46 p.m

Acland, Sir Richard

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

Bewles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Barstow, P G

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

Barton, C.

Barddock, T. (Mitcham)

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Battley, J. R.

Bramall, E. A.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Bechervaise, A. E

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Alpass, J. H.

Belcher, J. W.

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Benson, G.

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T

Attewell, H. C.

Berry, H.

Burden, T. W.

Austin, H. Lewis

Beswick, F.

Burke, W. A.

Awbery, S. S.

Bing, G. H. C.

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Ayles, W. H.

Binns, J.

Champion, A. J.

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

Blackburn, A. R.

Chewynd, G. R

Bacon, Miss A.

Blyton, W R.

Chetwynd, G. R

Baird, J

Boardman, H.

Cobb, F. A.

Balfour, A

Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W

Cocks, F S.

Coldrick, W.

Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

Richards, R.

Collins, V. J.

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A

Ridealgh, Mrs. M

Colman, Miss G. M.

Jay, D. P. T.

Robens, A.

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G

Jeger, G. (winchester)

Rogers, G. H. R.

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

Jeger. Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Corlett, Dr. J

Jenkins, R. H.

Royle, C.

Cove, W. G.

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepoel)

Scollan, T.

Crossman, R H. S

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Segal, Dr. S.

Daggar, G.

Keenan, W.

Shackleton, E. A A

Daines, P.

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W

Sharp, Granville

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

King, E. M.

Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Kinley, J.

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

Kirkwood, Rt Hon. D

Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Lang, G.

Simmons, C. J.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Lawson, Rt. Hon J. J

Skeffington-Lodgs, T. C

Deer, G.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Skinnard, F. W.

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

Diamond, J.

Leonard, W.

Snow, J. W.

Dodds, N. N.

Leslie, J. R.

Solley, L. J.

Donovan, T.

Levy, B. W.

Sorenson, R. W.

Driberg, T. E. N.

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Soskice, Sir Frank

Dumpleton, C. W

Lindgren, G. S.

Sparks, J. A

Durbin, E. F. M.

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

Steele, T.

Dye, S.

Logan, D. G

Stross, Dr. B

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C

Longden, F.

Stubbs, A. E

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Lyne, A. W.

Swingler, S.

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

McAdam, W.

Sylvester, G. O.

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

McEntee, V. La T

Symonds, A. L.

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

McGhee, H. G.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Evans, John (Ogmore)

McGovern, J.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Fairhurst, F.

Mackay, R. W. G. (Hall, N.W)

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

Fernyhough, E.

McKinlay, A. S.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Field, Capt. W. J

Maclean, N. (Govan)

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Fletcher, E. G M. (Islington, E.)

McLeavy, F.

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Follick, M.

Macpherson, T. (Romford)

Thurtle, Ernest

Foot, M. M.

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

Tiffany, S.

Forman, J. C

Mann, Mrs. J.

Titterington, M F

Freeman, J. (Watford)

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Tolley, L.

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

Marquand, H. A.

Tomilnson, Rt. Hon. G

Gallacher, W.

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Turner-Samules, M

Ganley, Mrs. C. S

Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

Ungoed-Thomas, L

Gibbins, J.

Madland, H. M.

Usborne, Henry

Gibson, C. W.

Mellish. R. J.

Vernon, Maj. W. F

Gilzean, A.

Messer, F.

Viant, S. P.

Glanville, J E. (Consett)

Mitchison, G. R

Walkden, E.

Gooch, E. G.

Monslow, W

Walker, G. H.

Gordon-Walker, P. C.

Moody, A. S.

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

Morgan, Dr. H. D

Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E)

Grenfell, D. R.

Morley, R.

Warbey, W. N

Grey, C. F.

Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

Watkins, T. E.

Griffiths. D. (Rother Valley)

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Watson, W. M

Guest, Dr. L. Haden

Morrison, Rt. Hon- H. (Lewisham, E.)

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Gunter, R. J.

Mort, D. L.

Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

Guy, W. H.

Moyle, A.

West, D. G.

Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

Murray, J. D

Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

Hale, Leslie

Nally, W

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J. T. (Edinb'gh. E)

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Naylor, T. E.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Wigg, George

Hardman, D. R

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Hardy, E. A

Noel-Baker, Rt Hon. P J. (Derby)

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Harrison, J.

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Williams, D. J (Neath)

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

O'Brien, T.

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Haworth, J.

Oldfield, W. H.

Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Palmer, A. M. F.

Williams, W R. (Heston)

Herbison, Miss M

Parkin, B. T.

Willis, E.

Hobson, C. R.

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Holman, P.

Pearson, A.

Wise, Major F. J

Holmes, H. E (Hemsworth)

Peart, T. F

Woodburn, Rt. Hon A

Horabin, T L.

Perrins, W.

Woods, G. S

House, G.

Poole, Cecil (Lichfield)

Wyatt, W

Hoy, J.

Popplewell, F.

Yates, V. F.

Hubbard, T.

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Young, Sir R (Newton)

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Proctor, W. T.

Younger, Hon Kenneth

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

Pursey, Cmdr. H

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Randall, H. E

Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Ranger, J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Reeves, J.

Mr. Collindridge and Mr. Wilkins

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Mr. Wilkins.

Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

Rhodes, H.

NOES.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

George, Lady M Lloyd (Anglesey)

Nield, B. (Chester)

Amory, D. Heathcoa

Glyn, Sir R.

Osborne, C.

Baldwin, A. E.

Graville, E (Eye)

Pitman, I. J.

Barlow, Sir J.

Grimston, R. V.

Ponsonby, Col. C E

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Raikes, H. V.

Birch, Nigel

Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

Rayner, Brig, R.

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

Haughton, S. G.

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Bowen, R.

Hogg, Hon. O.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Bower, N.

Howard, Hon. A.

Ropner, Col. L.

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Hurd, A.

Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

Jeffreys, General Sir G

Sanderson, Sir F.

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G T.

Jennings, R.

Scott, Lord W.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Kendall, W. D.

Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

Byers, Frank

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W

Challen, C.

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Spearman, A. C. M.

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Sutcliffe, H.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

Macdonald, Sir P. (I of Wight)

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

Darling, Sir W. Y.

McFarlane, C. S.

Teeling, William

Davidson, Viscountess

Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

Thorneycroft, G. E. P (Monmouth)

Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Turton, R. H.

Digby, S. W.

Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

Wadsworth, G

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Marples, A. E.

Wakefield, Sir W. W

Drewe, C.

Marsden, Capt. A.

Walker-Smith, D.

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

Duthie, W S.

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

Medlicott, Brigadier F.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Mellor, Sir J.

Young, Sir A. S. L (Partick)

Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

Morris, Hopkin, (Carmarthes)

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D.

Mullan, Lt. C. H.

Mr. Studholme and

Major Ramsay.

Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes 292; Noes, 91.

Division No. 198.

AYES.

f [7.58 p.m.

Acland, Sir Richard

Burke, W. A.

Fairhurst, F.

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Fernyhough, E

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith. South)

Champion, A. J

Field, Capt. W. J.

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Chater, D.

Flecher, E. G M (Islington. E.)

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Chewynd, G R

Follick, M.

Alpass, J. H.

Cluse, W. S

Foot, M. M.

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Cobb, F. A

Forman, J. C

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Cocks, F. S

Freeman, J. (Watford)

Attewell, H. C.

Coldrick, W.

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H T N

Austin, H. Lewis

Collins, V. J

Gallacher, W.

Awbery, S. S

Colman, Miss G. M

Ganley, Mrs. C. S

Ayles, W H.

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

Gibbins, J.

Ayrten Gould, Mrs. B

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well. N.W.)

Gibson, C. W.

Bacon, Miss A

Corlett, Dr. J

Gilzean, A.

Baird, J.

Cove, W. G

Glanville, J. E (Consett)

Balfour, A.

Daggar, G

Gooch, E. G.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A J

Daines, G

Gordon-Walker, P. C.

Barstow, P G

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

Barton, C

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Grenfell, D. R.

Battley, J. R.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Grey C. F.

Bechervaise, A. E.

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. w.)

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Belcher, J. W.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Guest, Dr. L. Haden

Bellemger, Rt. Hon. F. J

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Gunter, R. J.

Benson, G.

Deer, G.

Guy, W H

Berry, H.

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Haire, John E (Wycombe)

Beswick, F.

Diamond, J.

Hale, Leslie

Bing, G. H C

Dodds, N. N.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Binns, J.

Donovan, T.

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

Blyton, W. R.

Driberg, T. E. N.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Boardman, H.

Dumpleton, C. W.

Hardman, D. R.

Bowden, Fig. Offr. H. W.

Durbin, E. F. M

Hardy, E. A.

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Dye, S

Harrison, J

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Hastings, Dr Somerville

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Haworth, J

Bramall, E. A.

Edwards, N. (Carphilly)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Kingswinford)

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

Herbison, Miss M

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Hobson, C. R.

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Holman, P.

Burden, T. W.

Ewart, R.

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Horabin, T L

Morgan, Dr H. B

Stross, Dr B

House, G

Morley, R.

Stubbs, A. E

Hoy, J.

Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

Swingler, S.

Hubbard, T

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Sylvester, G. O

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H (Lewisham, E)

Symonds, A. L.

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

Mort, D. L.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Moyle, A.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Murray, J. D

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Nally, W.

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Naylor, T E

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

Neal, H (Claycross)

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Irving, W J. (Tottenham, N.)

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Thurtle, Ernest

Jay, D. P. T.

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P J (Derby)

Tiffany, S.

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Titterington, M. F.

Jeger, Dr. S. W (St. Pancras, S.E)

O'Brien, T

Tolley, L.

Jenkins, R H.

Oldfield, W. H

Tomlinson, Rt Hon G

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Turner-Samuels, M.

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Palmer, A. M. F

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Keenan, W.

Parkin, B T.

Usborne, Henry

Kendall, W D.

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Vernon, Maj. w. F

Key, Rt Hon. C. W

Pearson, A.

Viant, S. P

King, E M

Peart, T. F

Wadsworth, G.

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E

Perrins, W.

Walkden, E.

Kinley, J.

Poole, Cecil (Lichfield)

Walker, G. H.

Kirkwood, Rt. Hon. D.

Popplewell, E.

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Lang, G

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J

Proctor, W. T.

Warbey, W. N.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Pursey, Cmdr. H.

Watkins, T. E.

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Randall, H E

Wetson, W. M.

Leonard, W.

Ranger, J.

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Leslie, J. R.

Reeves, J.

Wells, W. T (Walsall)

Levy, B. W.

Reid, T. (Swindon)

West, D. G.

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Rhodes, H.

Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

Lindgren, G. S.

Richards, R.

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J. (Edinburgh. E.)

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

Ridealgh, Mrs M

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Logan, D. G.

Robens, A.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Lyne, A. W.

Rogers, G. H R.

Wigg, George

McAdam, W

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

McEnnee, V La I

Royle, C.

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

McGhee, H G

Scollan, T.

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

McGovern, J.

Segal, Dr. S.

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Shackleton, E. A. A.

Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

Sharp, Granville

Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

McKinlay, A. S.

Sgawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

Williams, W R. (Heston)

Maclean, N. (Govan)

Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St Helens)

Willis, E.

McLeavy, F.

Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Macpherson, T (Romford)

Silverman, J (Erdington)

Wise, Major F. J.

Malialieu, J. P W (Huddersfield)

Silverman, S S. (Nelson)

Woodburn, Rt. Hon A

Mann, Mrs J

Simmons, C J.

Woods, G. S

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Skeffington-Lodge, T. C

Woods, G. S

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Skinnard, F. W.

Wyatt, W.

Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

Smith, H. N (Nottingham, S.)

Yates, V. F.

Medland, H. M.

Snow, J. W.

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Mellish, R. J.

Solley, L. J.

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Messer, F.

Sorensen, R. W

Mitchison, G. R.

Soskice, Sir Frank

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Monslow, W.

Sparks, J. A

Mr. Collindridge and

Moody, A. S

Steele, T

Mr. Wilkins.

NOES.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Amory, D. Heathcoat

Drewe, C.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Baldwin, A. E.

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T (Richmond)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Barlow, Sir J.

Duthie, W. S.

Macdonald. Sir P. (I. of Wight)

Beamish, Maj. T V. H

Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W.

McFarlane, C. S.

Birch, Nigel

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Boles, Lt.-Col D C (Wells)

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

Bowen, R.

Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D.

Marples, A. E.

Bower, N.

Glyn, Sir R

Marsden, Capt. A.

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Grimston, R. V.

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

Medlicott, Brigadier F.

Bullock, Capt M

Haughton, S. G.

Mellor, Sir J.

Byers, Frank

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

Clarke, Col. R. S

Howard, Hon. A.

Morris-Jones, Sir H.

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G

Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N J

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Hurd, A

Mullan, Lt. C. H.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Jeffreys, General Sir G

Nield, B. (Chester)

Darling, Sir W. Y.

Jennings, R.

Osborne, C.

Davidson, Viscountess

Joynson-Hicks, Hon L W.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M

Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Pitman, I. J.

Digby, S W.

Lloyd, Maj Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Ponsonby, Col. C E

Raikes, H. V

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Walker-Smith, D.

Rayner, Brig R.

Spearman, A. C. M.

Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Strauss, H. G.(English Universities)

Wheatley, Col. M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Studholme, H. G.

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Ropner, Col. L.

Sutcliffe, H.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A (P'dd't'n,S.)

Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

Sanderson, Sir F.

Teeling, William

Scott, Lord W.

Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

Turton, R. H.

Major Ramsay and

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

Wakefield, Sir W. W

Brigadier Mackeson.

I beg to move, in page 28, line 39, at the end, to insert:

" Provided that a quotation appearing in the Stock Exchange Daily Supplementary List on the said dates in the year nineteen hundred and forty-five shall be disregarded for the purposes of this Section unless business is recorded in that list as having been done at any time during the period beginning with the fifteenth day of February and ending with the sixteenth day of July, nineteen hundred and forty-five."

There are two Amendments to the proposed Amendment. I propose to allow a discussion upon all of them together and if desired to allow an opportunity for a vote to be taken on each of them.

Does your Ruling mean, Mr. Beaumont, that each of the Amendments to the proposed Amendment will be put from the Chair?

It means that each of the Amendments to the proposed Amendment will be put, and an opportunity will be given for a Division, if the Committee so desires.

I propose to indicate to the Committee what our Amendment is intended to do. When the Amendments are moved to it, either I or someone on this Bench will reply to the Debate.

When we dealt with this matter upstairs, there was criticism from hon. Members opposite to the effect that securities were often quoted in the Stock Exchange list although there had been no dealings in them for some considerable time. It was said—and we felt there was something in the criticism—that, that being so, it would possibly be unfair if the quotations were accepted as final. On behalf of the Minister, I undertook to look into the matter and see whether we could not try to meet the criticism which had been made. For that reason, this Amendment was put on the Order Paper, and I hope that it will meet the main criticisms that have been levelled against the Clause.

The Amendment proposes that, if there was no dealing in a security during the quotation period in 1945, the quotation in the Daily Supplementary List should not be accepted. I have made some inquiries and I find that of the 24 gas stocks quoted in that List, which is used for compensation purposes under the Bill as drafted, all but seven were dealt in during the five months which are set forth in Clause 24 (2). Therefore, we are here dealing with only seven stocks. That covers the main point to which I should refer at this juncture.

I should like to add that it is our view—and I hope it is the general view of the Committee—that, even where dealings have not taken place, it can be said that, generally speaking, a quotation set down in the List has been put there by those best qualified to know what that quotation should be. The mere fact that dealings have not taken place is not necessarily complete proof that that is not the price which a willing buyer would give to a willing seller. We must generally accept the Stock Exchange lists as reliable: otherwise a good many transactions which had taken place and which are based on those lists would take on a very different complexion. Nevertheless, we believe that there was something in the criticism that was made. I hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite will realise that we have done our best to meet it.

8.15 p.m.

I hope it may be in accordance with the wishes of the Committee if I formally move the first Amendment to the Amendment, and if that is not so, I hope, Mr. Beaumont, that you will give us the benefit of your Ruling.

I think it would be better if we had a general discussion, and at the end of the discussion the Amendments could be moved in the proper way.

The Financial Secretary, in Committee upstairs, gave a perfectly straight undertaking when he said that, where it could be proved that it was a stale quotation, that quotation would not be taken into account so far as compensation on Stock Exchange prices was concerned. He is now producing an Amendment which, in the first instance, concerns only 1945 prices. There is nothing to cover 1947 prices, and my first question to the Financial Secretary is why this differentiation has been made? Why is it that he contents himself with using a stale quotation which is according to the 1945 List when he has not got anything to cover it in 1947?

The Financial Secretary has told us that he has certain figures. I will give him figures which I hope will prove a somewhat different case. The last date that is relevant in 1947 is 20th October, and the right hon. Gentleman will find that on that date 162 securities were quoted. Of those securities only 63 had no effective dealings in the market for that particular date. If he will look further, he will see that of these nominal quotations which I have mentioned, subject to the subtraction I have made, the number which had not been in actual dealings within two months was 41. Therefore, some 50 out of 162 is the total for the basis of compensation which he has mentioned, based on the Stock Exchange quotations. In no sense could they be considered as active quotations or something on which his case could be based.

We look on this position as one of major importance. We are not allowed—and I think rightly—to discuss whether Stock Exchange quotations are right, but what we can do is to say that if the Stock Exchange quotation is to be deemed as the medium for this compensation, the least we can ask the Government to do is to prove that these Stock Exchange quotations are not merely something put out by someone wishing to buy or someone wishing to sell shares, but in fact represent an actual transaction between someone who has shares to sell and someone who wishes to buy shares. The Government have not tried to meet that case. All they do is to say that they have the Supplementary List for 1945, which, as the Committee knows, was abolished in 1947 and that it is fair. They are not going to try to calm their consciences by saying that the Supplementary List is not a fair record.

They do not even go to the root of the problem, which is a very simple one. It is that if one is going to say, as the Financial Secretary said tonight and also some weeks ago, that financial quotations are considered to be fair, then they should be considered fair on one simple principle, namely, that at any given moment there is a willing buyer and a willing seller. That is one principle in the gas industry which is not true. The right hon. Gentleman would not answer me when I gave him figures of the number of companies and the number of shares. He carefully avoided that, but one thing he should not avoid on this Amendment is giving the Committee some estimate of the actual number of shares and the actual number of dealings. I was more than disappointed when he did not do so. I have given the Committee some figures tonight on information which has been laid before me, and it is quite clear that if we take the figure for 20th October, 1947—the last date laid down in the Bill—these would only be a minute proportion of the shares.

If it is assumed that Stock Exchange valuations are fair values then, in fact, the Government are saying, as I told the right hon. Gentleman earlier this afternoon, that they are willing to buy and to compensate an industry at something like 5 per cent, of its nominal value. The right hon. Gentleman did not answer me then; I hope he may answer me now. We want to make the consideration a very simple one. It is for the Government, or those who wish to take over the industry, to prove that shares which they wish to acquire at Stock Exchange valuation should represent a deal between a willing buyer and a willing seller, within certain limits. If that cannot be proved, the question of compensation should go to arbitration.

The right hon. Gentleman has made the statement—I do not know how many times here, but certainly a great number of times during the Committee stage—that Stock Exchange values, of course, are right and represent a deal between a willing buyer and willing seller. But what happens when a quotation is based upon neither a willing buyer nor a willing seller? It is quite clear from the figures I have given to the right hon. Gentleman that, as far as the gas industry as a whole is concerned, it may not be easy to find a willing buyer and a willing seller on a given date for any particular share. Two different series of dates are mentioned, one before the General Election and the other after it. The right hon. Gentleman does himself less than justice. He knows as well as I do that at the time of his first series of dates, the Heyworth Committee had been appointed and the whole future of the gas industry was under consideration. He must be aware that when that was known on the Stock Exchange the shares of that particular industry would have been depressed. That must happen when it has been laid down that the industry is to be reorganised. The first thing which is bound to arise would be uncertainty, with the result that the shares would be depressed.

The Financial Secretary may well talk about my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) winning an Election. What he does not say is that that is quite immaterial to the first series of dates, when a Committee set up to investigate the gas industry had been established—a Committee empowered to make radical changes. When that Committee was established, it was obvious that the Stock Exchange values of the shares concerned would react accordingly. Judging from what the House has considered right in the last two years, one would be only too ready to take a drop in share value rather than wait for something worse to come. The right hon. Gentleman, beating his breast with the utmost rectitude, claims, "Of course, we cannot be blamed for these prices; "but he knows that a Committee established by Parliament was empowered to make a great disturbance and reorganisation in the gas industry.

When the right hon. Gentleman says that the second series of dates was before the King's Speech, I would ask him to think again. It was perfectly apparent to hon. Members on both sides that, however the shares were to be based on Stock Exchange values, an indication of the slight element of doubt would only do justice to hon. Members on one side or the other. If an industry is to be taken over it is not a fair basis for compensation—and certainly not a valid argument —to have regard to securities representing only about three per cent, of the total number of companies. The Government have merely done something which takes into account one half of the dates on which compensation is based. He adduces no arguments why the other half of the dates have not been considered. He may say that if a share is not included in any Stock Exchange Daily Supplementary List on the date mentioned in 1945, it shall be disregarded unless it has a quotation within the previous six months. On what basis has he made that assumption? Has he any figures to show how many of the shares would be excluded under presentday valuation? I do not believe he has any such figures.

It is true that in the gas industry a large number of shares are not quoted on any particular date because, for the most part, they are viewed as trustee shares, held by people concerned not with capital value but merely with income; the market, therefore, is very small. The right hon. Gentleman, however, is trying to determine compensation by referring arbitrarily to the figures for 1945 instead of to those for 1947. We on this side cannot accept these proposals. We want to amend the Clause so that any share which does not have a quotation in either the main or supplementary lists within the period of two months shall not be considered on Stock Exchange quotations but shall be referred to arbitration. That is the only fair basis.

8.30 p.m.

The right hon. Gentleman has failed to meet the situation we have envisaged and he has failed to do justice to the case we have made. He knows that the supplementary list was abandoned and he knows the reason why, that up to the time the two lists were amalgamated in 1945 there was a list in which quotations were shown and another in which dealings were shown. He has not tried to tell the House why he is making this differentiation. Why is a basis which might have been necessary before the war for various reasons being employed at present? I am completely unable to accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement and I hope that there will be a fuller statement from him.

It is deplorable that we should be discussing—or squabbling—here about a Stock Exchange supple- mentary list of either 1945 or 1947. What are we? Are we the representatives of the people, or are we hucksters mooching after money?

Why do not hon. Members opposite accept the exhortation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and fix their minds on spiritual things and stop this sordid, greedy grab for gain? Where does the gas come from? It comes from coal. Where does the coal come from? It comes from the land—[An

HON. MEMBER

: "Where does the land come from?"]—and when the robbers stole the land from the people, how much compensation did they give them? Not a bean. We should not give them a bean on this occasion. If we decided not to give them a bean it would end all this palaver and all this waste of time.

However much we may desire to fix our minds on spiritual things, the fact remains that we have before us a mundane Government Amendment dealing with the question of compensation to shareholders in these gas companies. As my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre) said, the Committee has now decided that Stock Exchange values are to be taken as a basis for this purpose, and what we are now endeavouring to do is to examine the machinery by which the right hon. Gentleman proposes to carry out his own wishes. I want to put before him one or two real technical difficulties standing in the road not only of the whole proposal, but of this Government Amendment.

In the first place, the word "quotations" is a little misleading. If the right hon. Gentleman was anxious to purchase, let us say, some Treasury 2½ per cent, stock and rang up his stockbroker and gave him the order to do so, the broker would go into the market where a jobber would make a quotation of perhaps 76¼ to 76½, in order to indicate a buying and selling price. However, the trouble with many of these securities is that there is no market in that sense at all and it would not be possible to go into the market and to get a jobber to give a quotation in the sense of a buying and selling price.

What happens very often is that, after great difficulty, that stock or those shares change hands as a result of negotiation and not of quotation. There is a real difference between the two. It will then be placed in the Stock Exchange list of markings—not as a quotation—which merely records that the shares changed hands on that date at a certain price. It may be the only deal for weeks. It will appear in the list that a transaction took place and there will be a bracket showing the date. One of the difficulties is that there is no indication from that marking what amount of shares or stock changed hands. It might be a line of 10,000 resulting from a deceased account where a realisation has to take place to meet the demands of Estate Duty. If it was a heavy sale, the jobber would give a low price for it because it would probably take him some time to sell if he had not a buyer at the moment. Those markings are, therefore, misleading. So often in these cases of stocks for which there is not much market, it is not true to say that the transaction has taken place between a willing buyer and a willing seller in the strict sense of that term. If the stock has to be sold in order to find the necessary money to pay into the Exchequer for Death Duties, it cannot be described as a transaction by a willing seller. The buyer may take it eventually after much negotiation and after very much difficulty. What appeared in the supplementary list were not quotations but recordings of negotiated bargains which might have been several weeks or several months old.

The right hon. Gentleman—I can see his point—said that there is generally in the Stock Exchange list a margin of say 72–74 and for stock for which there is an active market, a much narrower margin, say, 76–76½, which can be taken as a rough valuation; but very often in this kind of dealing those margins are very wide indeed and do not alter for weeks or months. It is not true to say that the bargain takes place on that basis. What happens is that, as a result of the bargain having taken place, the quotation is altered. The marking staff see that the shares have changed hands at a lower or higher price than the previous price and they alter the list in consequence of the bargain, and therefore the bargain is not a result of the quotation.

These technical difficulties meet an interjection made earlier by the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) to one of my hon. Friends when he asked why Stock Exchange values were taken for Death Duty purposes. The answer to his question is a fairly simple one. When there is an active share like Imperial Chemical or Imperial Tobacco, in which there is a large number of dealings, the Stock Exchange quotation is an obvious and convenient method of valuation. In a stock of this kind, however, in which dealings are rare, and which is almost unmarketable, Stock Exchange quotations are not taken for the purpose of valuation for Estate Duty. There is an independent valuation or arbitration—which is exactly what we are asking for here—by a reliable stockbroker, and it is accepted by the Inland Revenue Department as being a valuation for that purpose.

These are technical points, but I feel that the Financial Secretary is not quite seized of the intricacies of this matter, and that is why I have put them to him, if only for the purpose of placing upon record that this is the Stock Exchange machinery for dealing with stocks in which there is no market, as such. If the subject is dull, it is because the Government have chosen a particularly dull method of dealing with this vital problem, but it is important to have this on record, and I would like the right hon. Gentleman to think this over in the light of those facts.

The object of the Government Amendment presumably is to avoid the use of quotations which are stale or dead, and do not represent a proper basis for valuing securities. Any quotation used must have some relevance to what is going on now, and that is the object of our Amendments. Why, then, draw this curious distinction between the supplementary list and the official list? The fact that there used to be two lists is based on historical considerations which no longer exist, and there was never any real difference. It was the same whether a stock was quoted in the official list or in the unofficial list and, in fact, many of the quotations in the official list were quite as stale as those in the unofficial list.

I am told that on 20th October, 1947, there was one stock in the official list which had not been quoted for seven years, 15 which had not been quoted for one year, and 52 which had not been quoted for over three months. The conclusion to be drawn from that is that because a stock is quoted in the official list, it does not mean necessarily that it is quoted frequently. The effect of our Amendments is simply to draw no distinction between the two lists, and we think that two months is a much more reasonable period than that given in the Government Amendment. The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) talked about spiritual values. He knows quite well that Marxism excludes them—

It is a hopeless waste of time to talk about spiritual values to hon. Members opposite.

It is no good the hon. Member talking about spiritual values, because if he does, he will get thrown out of the Party. The fact that we should be led into this discussion is because the whole basis is wrong but, within the wrong basis, we are trying to make it more logical, and it would be more logical if no distinction were drawn between the two lists, because there is no such distinction, and it would be more logical to restrict the time during which there must be a quotation.

8.45 p.m.

I think the Committee will agree that this is a small point. Earlier we have been dealing with matters which are of much more moment and which go much more to the root of the matter than does this small Amendment for which I do not, and never have, claimed a great deal. I was doing no more than trying to meet what I thought was a legitimate criticism from the other side of the Committee when we were dealing with this matter upstairs.

It is true that we have limited the Amendment to the supplementary list. I was asked by the hon. Member for Flint (Mr. Birch) why we make the distinction, and why the supplementary list comes into it at all. The reason is that, in order to get a sufficient field for quotations in the earlier pre-election period of five months, we have to take not only the official daily list but also the supplementary list which was then in existence. If the supplementary list had been in existence on the relevant dates in 1947, my right hon. Friend would have used it, as well as the official daily list, to get as wide a field as possible for the quotations which might be used. However, as the Committee knows, the supplementary list was amalgamated with the official daily list in April, 1947.

As I understand it, the official list for the earlier period contains stocks which were dealt in. It is, therefore, only the supplementary list which it is essential to include in the Amendment. With regard to the 1947 period, where a quotation appears in the Stock Exchange daily list and there was no dealing on the day for which the quotation is given, a dealing did take place round about the quotation period. One has to remember that certain dates have been taken, and it is likely that, although some stocks are not dealt in repeatedly, nevertheless they were dealt in during or near the period in question. I think that that answers the point put to me by the hon. Member for Flint. I do not suppose I have satisfied him, but that is the answer.

The hon. and gallant Member for Holderness (Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite) put certain questions to me. Of course, he is an expert in these matters. He has been in the City for years and is a member of an old-established and respected firm. It is true that, in the gas industry, there are companies varying in size; some are small, almost family concerns, or next door to it. Often people in a locality have invested their money in a gas undertaking, and they never dream of selling their shares unless a death occurs. In that case, it is obviously difficult to arrive at a fair and proper quotation, and the figure indicated by a jobber is probably not necessarily the value as between a willing buyer and a willing seller. But the number of securities in that position is, I gather, extremely small. Their nominal value is not large and, if we accept the system of Stock Exchange quotation and valuation, we have to make the best of it. It seems to me that the kind of difficulty that the hon. and gallant Member envisaged can nevertheless be overcome, because jobbers generally desire to strike the correct value.

In this question of a distinction between the supplementary and the official list the only point at issue is whether a quotation means anything at all, or whether it is so old that it has no meaning. That can be ascertained by seeing what the market has been over a certain period. I have pointed out that in many cases in the official list there are stocks in which there have been no dealings for a long period. Therefore, why does not the right hon. Gentleman include the official list in the first period? There does not seem to be any difference?

We must establish values by reference to the Stock Exchange official daily list. In the Electricity Bill and the Transport Bill, we did not take into account the fact that there was a supplementary list; but that is done here, because gas undertakings are in a particular position. There are gas undertakings which were not quoted in the Stock Exchange daily list in 1945. But the Stock Exchange official daily list must be accepted so far as it gives quotations.

Because it is the list which everyone uses and accepts as official. In 1945 there was the supplementary list, which has now disappeared. For that period and that period only, in this Bill and in this Bill only, it was thought right and proper that we should include it when trying to get what we considered a fair series of quotations.

When the right hon. Gentleman speaks about these nominal quotations as representing near or very near transactions, exactly what sort of distance has he in mind?

That is implicit in the Amendment. We take the five months and the relative dates as mentioned in Clause 24, Subsection (2).

Will the right hon. Gentleman move his first Amendment to the proposed Amendment at the end of his speech?

Yes, Sir. The Financial Secretary has made a virtuous but fatuous attempt to deal with moribund questions. I have spent a great deal of my life in the City and during that time I have heard the most violent denunciation of the Stock Exchange and all its works and pomps, and have listened to Socialist speakers saying that Stock Exchange lists are largely rigged. If the right hon. Gentleman wished to repeat it I would take it from him that perhaps in the past that has been so, but the truth is that the official list has for generations embalmed a large number of securities. My hon. Friend the Member for Flint (Mr. Birch) has given some statistics and I wondered why the Financial Secretary did not attempt to deal with them. In the official list there are securities which have not been dealt in extensively for years. I happen to know a great deal about the official and supplementary lists as I am associated with companies some of whose shares are quoted in one and some in the other. There is not much difference between the lists, but some companies like to be in one, while others like to be in the other. The supplementary list has not been rated as inferior to the official list, nor is it possible to claim that something quoted in the supplementary list is less worth while than something quoted in the official list.

I am afraid that the Financial Secretary does not realise the essential silliness of any differentiation between the lists. The sort of differentiation he put forward tonight is going to hurt the large number of small investors about whom he talked. He has shown a certain amount of sympathy in his speeches—he cannot show it in action because he is bound by Government policy—but he knows that a large number of people have invested in the gas industry for one aboundingly good reason, that on the whole gas stocks are safe. Most investors have been interested in small companies and know their record. When they see what the Americans call a gasometer, but which now I believe it is fashionable to call a gas container, in their area, they know that not even the predatory Socialist Government can take that ugly object away. People have gone into the industry, not because they expect a great increase in capital, but, being humble people, because they want to make certain that their investments are safe. It happens that a large number of gas companies' shares which are quoted on the Stock Exchange are rarely dealt in, whether they are quoted in the official, or the supplementary list. The whole point of our objection to the attitude of the Government is that whether the stock is quoted in the official or the supplementary list, that quotation is no fair measuring rod of the value of the security.

The Financial Secretary, rather battered by the arguments of my hon. Friend the Member for Flint and others, fell back on an attractive, and in a way, a pathetic, defence. He said, "These small people who have invested in these small companies must make the best of it." I do not think I am misquoting him. That is a nice argument for the Government. The Government have control of vast sums of money and have plenty of printing machinery to produce a lot more, but the argument about making the best of it is very dismal comfort to the many people who are being plucked by this misuse of the Stock Exchange list. Sometimes I wonder whether we in this House, while calmly getting rid of other people's property and saying—

The hon. Gentleman is more interested in roubles than in sterling. He had better not attempt to persuade this Government to follow the financial practices of his lord and master in the Kremlin.

9.0 p.m.

If the old man is Mr. Josef Stalin I think the hon. Member is right in saying that he is a parrot-like repetition of the old man. But I must return to the Amendment. The hon. Member is not interested in English affairs at all. He has other and bigger responsibilities.

I do not think that we should get too heated about this matter. We are actually dealing, strange as it may seem, with a technical matter—whether a stock quoted in the official list has greater virture than one quoted in the supplementary list. I feel that we have not been able to persuade the Financial Secretary to see the virtues of our argument. It may well be that the right hon. Gentleman does not understand the Stock Exchange; I am not in any way blaming him for that. He has quite rightly paid tribute to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Holderness (Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite), and he should also understand that my hon. Friend the Member for Flint is knowledgeable about the Stock Exchange. In the end all he does to meet their arguments is to say, "Make the best of it. The unfortunate gas stockholder must make the best of it." As I am anxious to get on with this Bill I should like to accept that comfortable argument, but I know very well that many thousands of persons in this country who are asked by the Financial Secretary to make the best of it will suffer most grievously by this convenient method which is suggested to us by the Financial Secretary.

So far as my hon. and right hon. Friends on this side of the Committee and I are concerned we have no intention of admitting the view that the mulcted gas stockholders must make the best of it. So far as we can we will defend their interests.[ Laughter. ] They will in many cases be constituents of hon. Gentlemen opposite and are much less well paid. They have not got £1,000 a year and travelling expenses. I hate this jeering against thrifty people who have, after many years of hard work, put what little they have got into gas securities, and then rather opulent gentlemen jeer at them. I know, and this is no attempt to flatter the Financial Secretary; that there are few Ministers in this Government who wish more than he does to be fair minded. I honestly do not see any reason why he should not accept this Amendment. There is not the slightest party bias in this matter. We are certainly not speaking for a great number of bloated capitalists. We are now speaking about what the Financial Secretary recognises as a very large number of worthy persons who have put their money into neither the Co-operative Society nor the Stock Exchange. Normally they were trying to put their money into the safest of securities, which hitherto, according to their way of thinking, was the gas industry.

Let us face up to this matter. We are not dealing with arguments for or against Socialism or capitalism but with the fact that the Government have for some strange reason attached enormous importance to the official Stock Exchange list and little importance to the supplementary list. There is no real difference between the two. [An HON. MEMBER: "The right hon. Gentleman has said that four times."] I might have to say it 10 times to get it into the mind of the hon. Gentleman. I feel strongly that the Financial Secretary ought to reconsider his attitude in this matter. It is not a matter of Party politics, it is a matter of justice.

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out:

On a point of Order. Are we now to discuss the first Amendment to the proposed Amendment?

I am advised that these Amendments to the proposed Amendment are being moved only so that they can be divided upon.

On a point of Order. I was here before you came into the Chair, Sir Charles, and I did not hear it stated that these Amendments to the proposed Amendment were to be moved only for the purpose of Divisions.

I am in the hands of the Committee, but I understood that that arrangement had been made.

With great respect I was here, and did not hear that said. I knew that this Amendment to the proposed Amendment was to be moved, but I did not hear it said that it was only to be moved to be divided upon.

Your predecessor, Sir Charles, ruled that the discussion might range over the Government Amendment and the two Amendments to the proposed Amendment in the names of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre) and others, which would be safeguarded for the purpose of a Division if so desired.

The hon. Member who was responsible for the Amendment to the proposed Amendment asked if he was to move it and the Deputy-Chairman said that it would be much better to have a general discussion on the Government Amendment and that the Amendments to the proposed Amendment could then be put.

It might meet the convenience of everyone if I

were to point out that after we have disposed of these Amendments to the proposed Amendment the main Amendment will be before the Committee, and the general discussion can continue.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 291; Noes, 88.

Division No. 199.]

AYES.

[9.7 p.m.

Acland, Sir Richard

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Adams, W T (Hammersmith, South)

Davies, S. O (Merthyr)

Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W)

Alexander, Rt. Han. A. V

Deer, G.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Hynd, J. B. (Attereliffe)

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Diamond, J.

Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

Alpass, J. H.

Dodds, N. N

Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Donovan, T.

Isaacs, Rt, Hon. G. A

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Jay, D. P. T.

Attewell, H. C.

Dumpleton, C. W.

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Attlee, Rt. Hon, C. R.

Durbin, E. F. M

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

Austin, H. Lewis

Dye, S.

Jenkins, R. H.

Awbery, S. S

Ede, Rt Hon. J. C.

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Ayles, W. H.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Keenan, W.

Bacon, Miss A.

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

Kendall, W. D.

Balfour, A.

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

King, E. M.

Barstow, P. G

Ewart, R.

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E

Barton, C.

Fair hurst, F.

Kinky, J.

Battley, J. R.

Farthing, W. J

Lang, G.

Bechervaise, A. E

Femyhough, E.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Belcher, J. W.

Field, Capt. W. J.

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

Leonard, W.

Benson, G.

Follick, M.

Leslie, J. R.

Berry, H.

Forman, J. C.

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Beswick, F.

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Lindgren, G. S

Bing, G. H. C

Freeman, J. (Watford)

Liplon, Lt.-Col. M

Binns, J.

Gaitskell, Rt Hon. H T N

Logan, D. G.

Blackburn, A. R

Gallacher, W.

Lyme, A. W.

Blenkinsop, A.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

McAdam, W

Blyton, W. R

George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

McEn'ee, V. La T

Boardman, H.

Gibbins, J.

McGhee, H. G.

Bowden, Fig. Offr. H. W.

Gibson, C. W.

McGovern, J.

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Gilzean, A.

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

McKinlay, A. S.

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Gooch, E. G.

Maclean, N, (Govan)

Bramall, E. A,

Gordon-Walker, P. C

McLeavy, F

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Granville, E. (Eye)

Macpherson, T. (Romford)

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Greenwood, A W. J (Heywood)

Mallalieu, J. P. W (Huddersfield)

Brown, George (Belper)

Grey, C. F

Mann, Mrs. J.

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Buchanan, Rt. Hon. G

Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

Medland, H. M.

Burden, T. W.

Gunter, R. J

Metlish, R. J.

Burke, W. A.

Guy, W. H.

Messer, F.

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Haire, John E (Wycombe)

Mitchison, G R

Byers, Frank

Hale, Leslie

Monslow, W.

Champion, A. J.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Moody, A. S.

Chetwynd, G. R

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Cluse, W. S.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Morley, R.

Cobb, F. A.

Hardy, E. A.

Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

Cocks, F. S

Harrison, J.

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Coldrick, W.

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

Collindridge, F

Haworth, J.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E)

Collins, V. J.

Henderson, Rt Hon. A. (Kingswinford)

Mori, D. L.

Colman, Miss G. M

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Moyle, A

Comyns, Dr. L.

Herbison, Miss M

Murray, J. D

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

Hobson, C. R.

Naylor, T, E.

Corbet, Mrs F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

Holman, P

Neal, H. (Claycross)

corlett, Dr. J

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Nichol, Mrs M. E. (Bradford, N.)

cove, W. G

Horabin, T. L

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Daggar, G.

House, G,

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

Daines, P.

Hoy, J.

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Hubbard, T.

O'Brien, T.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Oldfield, W. H.

Orbach, M.

Skinnard, F. W.

Warbey, W. N

Paling, Will T (Dewsbury)

Smith, C. (Colchester)

Watkins, T. E.

Palmer, A. M. F

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

Watson, W. M

Parkin, B. T.

Solley, L J.

Weitzman, D.

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Sorensen, R. W

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Pearson, A

Soskice, Sir Frank

Wells, W. T (Walsall)

Peart, T F

Sparks, J. A.

West, D G.

Perrins, W,

Steele, T.

Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

Poole, Cecil (Lichfield)

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J. (Edinburgh, E)

Popplewell, E.

Stross, Dr. B.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Stubbs, A. E.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Pritt, D N.

Swingler, S

Wigg, George

Pursey, Cmdr. H

Sylvester, G. O

Wilkins, W. A.

Randall, H E

Symonds, A. L

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Ranger, J

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Willey, O G. (Cleveland)

Reeves, J.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Taylor, Dr S. (Barnet)

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Rhodes, H.

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

Williams, R. W (Wigan)

Richards, R.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Williams, Rt Hon. T. (Don Valley)

Robens, A.

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Williams, W R. (Heston)

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Willis, E.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Thurtle, Ernest

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Tiffany, S.

Wise, Major F J.

Rogers, G. H. R.

Titterington, M. F.

Woodburn, Rt. Hon A

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Tolley, L.

Woods, G. S

Royle, C.

Tomlinson, Rt Hon G

Wyatt, W.

Scollan, T.

Turner-Samuels, M.

Yates, V. F

Segal, Dr. S.

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Young, Sir R (Newton)

Shackleton, E. A.A

Usborne, Henry

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Sharp, Granville

Vernon, Maj. W F.

Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

Viant, S P.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

Wadsworth, G

Mr. Snow and

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Walker, G H

Mr. George Wallace.

Simmons, C J

Wallace, H W (Walthamstow, E.)

NOES.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

Rayner, Brig. R.

Amory, D. Heathcoat

Harvey, Air-Cmdre. A. V.

Reed, Sir S (Aylesbury)

Baldwin, A. E.

Haughton, S. G

Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

Barlow, Sir J.

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Ropner, Col. L.

Beamish, Maj. T V. H.

Howard, Hon. A.

Ross, Sir R D. (Londonderry)

Birch, Nigel

Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

Sanderson, Sir F.

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

Hurd, A.

Scott, Lord W.

Bowen, R.

Jennings, R.

Shepherd, W. S (Bucklow)

Bower, N.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Spearman, A. C. M.

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Strauss, H. G (English Universities)

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G T

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Sutcliffe, H.

Bullock, Capt M

Macdonald. Sir P (I of Wight)

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Challen, C.

McFarlane, C. S.

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

Clarke, Col. R. S

Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

Thomas, J P. L. (Hereford)

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G

Marples, A. E.

Touche, G. C

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

Turton, R. H.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

Wakefield, Sir W. W

Darling, Sir W. Y.

Medlicott, Brigadier F.

Walker-Smith, D.

Davidson, Viscountess

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

Ward, Hon. G. R

Digby, S. W.

Mullan, Lt. C. H.

Watt Sir G. S. Harvie

Dodds-Parker, A. D

Nield, B. (Chester)

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Drewe, C.

Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Osborne, C.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Duthie, W. S.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M

Pitman, I. J.

Galbraith, Cmdr T. D

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Glyn, Sir R.

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

Mr. Studholme and

Grimston, R. V.

Raikes, H. V.

Brigadier Mackeson.

Hannon Sir P. (Moseley)

Ramsay, Maj. S

:I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out:

" period beginning with the fifteenth day of February and ending with the sixteenth day of July, nineteen hundred and forty-five."

and to insert:

" two months immediately before the date of that list."

:I understand that the arrangement was that this Amendment to the proposed Amendment was to be put forthwith, and I propose to do so.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 297; Noes, 89.

Division No. 200.

AYES

9.20 p.m.

Acland, Sir Richard

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

McGhee, H. G

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Evans, John (Ogmore)

McGovern, J.

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

Ewart, R.

McKinlay, A. S.

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Fair hurst, F.

Maclean, N. (Govan)

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Farthing, W. J.

McLeavy, F.

Alpass, J. H.

Fernyhough, E.

Macpherson, T. (Romford)

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Field, Capt. W. J.

Mallalieu, J. P. W (Huddersfield)

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

Mann, Mrs. J.

Attewell, H. C.

Follick, M.

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Forman, J. C.

Medland, H. M

Austin, H. Lewis

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Mellish, R. J.

Awbery, S. S.

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

Messer, F.

Ayles, W. H.

Gallacher, W.

Mitchison, G. R

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Monslow, W.

Bacon, Miss A.

George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

Moody, A. S

Balfour, A.

Gibbins, J.

Morgan, Dr. H. B

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

Gibson, C. W.

Morley, R.

Barstow, P. G.

Gilzean, A.

Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C)

Barton, C.

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Morris, P. (Swansea, W)

Battley, J. R.

Gooch, E. G.

Morrison, Rt. Hon- H. (Lewisham, E.)

Bechervaise, A. E.

Gordon-Walker, P. C.

Mort, D. L.

Belcher, J. W.

Granville, E. (Eye)

Moyle, A.

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F J.

Greenwood, A. W J. (Heywood)

Murray, J D

Benson, G.

Grenfell, D. R.

Nally, W.

Berry, H.

Grey, C. F.

Naylor, T. E.

Beswick, F.

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Bing, G. H. C.

Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Binns, J.

Gunter, R. J.

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

Blackburn, A. R.

Guy, W. H.

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Blenkinsop, A.

Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

O'Brien, T.

Blyton, W. R.

Hale, Leslie

Oldfield, W. H.

Boardman, H.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Orbach, M.

Bottomley, A. G.

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

Paget, R.T.

Bowden, Fig. Offr. H. W.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Hardy, E. A.

Palmer, A. M. F.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

Harrison, J.

Parkin, B. T.

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Paten, Mrs. F. (Rushcltffe)

Bramall, E. A.

Haworth, J.

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

Pearson, A.

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Peart, T. F.

Brown, George (Belper)

Her bison, Miss M.

Perrins, W.

Brown, T. J. Once)

Hobson, C. R.

Popplewell, E.

Buchanan, Rt. Hon. G.

Holman, P.

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Burden, T. W.

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Pritt, D. N.

Burke, W. A.

Horabin, T. L.

Pursey, Cmdr. H

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

House, G.

Randall, H. E

Byers, Frank

Hoy, J.

Ranger, J.

Champion, A. J.

Hubbard, T.

Rankin, J.

Chetwynd, G R.

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Reeves, J.

Cluse W. S.

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Cocks, F. S.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Rhodes, H.

Coldrick, W.

Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Richards, R.

Collindridge, F.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Robens, A.

Collins, V. J.

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Colman, Miss G M.

Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Comyns, Dr. L.

Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Rogers, G. H. R.

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

Jay, D. P. T.

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Corlett, Dr. J.

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Royle, C.

Cove, W. G.

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E)

Scollan, T.

Daggar, G.

Jenkins, R. H.

Segal, Dr. S.

Daines, P.

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Shackleton, E. A A

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Sharp, Granville

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Keenan, W.

Shawcross, C. N (Widnes)

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Kendall, W. D.

Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

Key, Rt Hon C W

Silkin, Rt. Hon. L

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

King, E. M.

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Deer, G.

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E

Simmons, C. J.

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Kinley, J.

Skinnard, F. W.

Delargy, H. J.

Lang, G

Smith, C. (Colchester)

Diamond, J.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

Dodds, N. N.

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Solley, L. J.

Donovan, T.

Leonard, W.

Sorensen, R. W.

Driberg, T. E. N

Leslie, J. R

Soskice, Sir Frank

Dumpleton, C. W.

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Sparks, J. A.

Durbin, E. F. M.

Lindgren, G. S.

Steele, T

Dye, S.

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Logan, D. G.

Stress, Dr. B.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Lyne, A. W.

Stubbs, A. E.

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

McAdam, W.

Summerskill, Dr. Edith

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

McEntee, V. La T.

Swinger, S.

Sylvester, G. O

Viant, S. P

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Symonds, A. L

Wadsworth, G

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Walkden, E.

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Walker, G. H.

Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, W.)

Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

Warbey, W. N

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Watkins, T. E

Willis, E.

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Watson, W. M

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Weitzman, D

Wise, Major F. J

Thurtle, Ernest

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Woodburn, Rt. Hon A

Tiffany, S.

Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

Woods, G. S.

Titterington, M. F

West, D. G

Wyatt, W.

Tolley, L.

Westwood, Rt. Hon. J

Yates, V. F.

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon, G

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J. T. (Edinb'gh,E.)

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Turner-Samuels, M.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Ungoed-Thomas, L

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

Usborne, Henry

Wilkins, W. A.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Vernon, Maj. W. F

Willey, F T. (Sunderland)

Mr. Snow and

Mr. George Wallace.

NOES.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

Rayner, Birg. R.

Amory, D. Heathcoat

Harvey, Air-Cmdre. A. V.

Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

Baldwin, A. E.

Haughton, S. G.

Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

Barlow, Sir J.

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Ropner, Col. L.

Beamish, Maj. T V. H.

Howard, Hon. A.

Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Birch, Nigel

Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N J

Sanderson, Sir F.

Boles, Lt.-Col. D C. (Wells)

Hurd, A.

Scott, Lord W.

Bowen, R.

Jennings, R

Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

Bower, N.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Lennex-Boyd, A. T.

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Spearman, A. C. M.

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

Lloyd, Shewyn (Wirral)

Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

Buchan-Hepbum, P. G. T.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Sutcliffe, H.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Macdonald, Sir P. (I of Wight)

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Challen, C.

McFarlane, C. S.

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Maclean, F. H. R. (Lanoaster)

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

Marples, A. E.

Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

Touche, G. C.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col O. E

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

Turton, R. H.

Darling, Sir W. Y

Medlicott, Brigadier F.

Wakefield, Sir W. W

De la Bere, R

Morrison, Maj. J. G (Salisbury)

Walker-Smith, D.

Digby, S. W.

Mullan, Lt. C. H.

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Nield, B. (Chester)

Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

Drewe, C.

Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Osborne, C.

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Fox, Sir G.

Peto, Birg, C. H. M.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M

Pitman, I. J.

Willimas, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Glyn, Sir R.

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

TELLERS FO THE NOES:

Grimston, R. V.

Raikes, H. V.

Mr. Studholme and

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Ramsay, Maj. S

Brigadier Mackeson.

Question proposed "That those words be there inserted."

I should point out to the Committee that, as the two dates are fixed, there is very little that can be said that is in Order.

9.30 p.m.

I want to ask the Financial Secretary whether he can give us a reason, which he has not done so far, why he has chosen the period beginning on the 15th day of February and ending on the 16th day of July, which is a period of five months? It is a question on which certain arguments have been put to him, but he has not said why the period of five months should be chosen.

While the Financial Secretary is working- that out, I want to say how sorry I am that this Amendment affects a class of small investors, who very often, as in my own Division, consist of working men who have been in the industry for a long time and have put their occasional savings into shares. I speak also on behalf of another type of people from whom gas companies have drawn considerable investments. I am not going to deal with either of these matters in detail, but I want to make a very strong protest on behalf of both against the extremely slipshod way in which the Government are dealing with their investments. Not having taken any part in the Debates on this Bill previously, I am not astonished at the position taken up by the Financial Secretary. It is fully in keeping with the Government's attitude, but it is one which I regret because of the people whom I represent, and I protest on behalf of these small people, and even more strongly on behalf of various societies and trade unions who have invested funds in this way.[ Interruption. ] This is a matter which is naturally left to the Conservative Party, which looks after these people, and I feel that it would be wrong if I did not protest against the evil, monstrous way in which these funds are being treated. [ Interruption. ] I hope that the hon. Gentlemen opposite who are now cheering agree that these working people and trade unions should not have their funds treated in this way. As you indicated just now, Sir Charles, if I were to say much more I should be out of Order. Therefore, having secured the disapprobation of the plutocrats opposite, I say no more.

Let me make an appeal to the Financial Secretary. He has made no attempt to justify these mystical dates, and I think a statement by him would probably be helpful. I do not know whether the Financial Secretary thinks it is better for us to take exercise by going through the Lobby tonight, or to get on with the Bill. Either course will be well received by my hon. Friends. I suggest that the Financial Secretary should attempt to give an answer. If he does, we need not go on with this eternal process of walking through the Lobby, but we are bound to do so unless we have an answer from the Treasury Bench. Frankly, I cannot understand this business of mystical dates.

That is the right hon. Gentleman's weakness—not the Financial Secretary's.

The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) is fellow travelling with the Government, and although it is rarely that he does so, I am glad he is not doing it with us. Cannot the Financial Secretary attempt to deal with the point of this Amendment? If he does I think that if the answer is satisfactory the tired woebegone hon. Members opposite will not be required to take any more exercise for some little time.

There is nothing mystical about the dates in this Amendment. Those who have read the Bill will have seen that these dates occur in Clause 24 (2). It is because they occur there and have definite reference to the matter in hand that we have incorporated them in the Amendment.

Perhaps I may briefly explain once more what we are doing. It was decided that, where stocks are quoted, the compensation should be based on that Stock Exchange quotation, and that it should be the best of two period averages. One period was before the Election results were known, and the other was later on, after the advent of the Labour Government and before the King's Speech was read announcing that this Bill would be introduced. Whichever was better for the stockholder was to be the date for compensation. As it happens, the date in 1945 is, in most cases, overwhelmingly the better, so I understand. In those cases, that date will be taken. As was pointed out upstairs, the holders of a few stocks which are unquoted will be taken care of in another part of the Bill. But it has been pointed out to us that, in some cases, although there Was a quotation, that quotation might be a stale one, and dealings in that particular stock might not have taken place in spite of the quotation. In order to be fair, we said we would look into it.

We have found that in the supplementary list there were 24 of these stocks, in seven cases of which there had not been dealings during the fairly long period of four or five months. All we are doing by this Amendment is to legislate for seven relatively small companies—those with securities which are unquoted are dealt with in another part of the Bill. Where securities have been quoted and dealt with, they come in anyway and, as I said earlier, we are dealing with a very small matter here. I hope that with that explanation we shall be allowed to have this Amendment without a Division.

After the very courteous statement made by the Financial Secretary, it would be hard to resist his appeal. When I told the right hon. Gentleman that he might as well have fixed the dates of the Derby and the Oaks, I think that that suggestion was just as good as the one which he put forward a few minutes ago. Taking it all in all, and in view of the fact that there is a powerful lot of exercise before hon. Gentlemen opposite and my hon. Friends behind me, I feel that I should be wanting in some generosity if I did not say to the Financial Secretary that, although he has not convinced us by his argument, he has appealed to us by his courtesy, and, therefore, on this occasion, we do not intend to challenge a Division.

Question "That the proposed words be there inserted "put and agreed to.

I beg to move in page 29, line 45, to leave out from the beginning to "a," in line 46, and to insert:

" acquired them either from the undertaker or from any person who under-wrote them or placed them on behalf of the undertaker or, if such holder is the successor in title of the person who so acquired them, and is not."

When this matter was discussed on an Amendment which we moved upstairs, the Parliamentary Secretary gave us an assurance that in his view it was a case which required consideration. I understand that the matter is still under consideration, but that no form of words that will quite cover it has yet been found. I gather, therefore, that in another place some Amendment will be put forward, and, if I have that assurance, I do not think that we need discuss this any more tonight.

As the hon. and gallant Member for East Grinstead (Colonel Clarke) has said, this matter was first raised during the Committee stage upstairs, and we expressed sympathy with the object proposed. We have been working upon the proposal since then, and we have not yet found an appropriate form of words, but I will undertake that wording which I hope will meet the object proposed will be inserted in another place. Various technical considerations arise in the matter of issues to underwriters which have all to be carefully considered. The process of consideration is, in fact, going on, and we hope to find a suitable form of words.

It is with great pleasure that we hear from the Solicitor-General that another place can play such a part in amending and improving Bills. After the rather vitriolic Debates in another place, it is attractive to hear from one of the principal Ministers of the Government that another place can play a great part in our affairs. We are quite willing to accept the Solicitor-General's assurance, for two reasons. One is that the hon. and learned Gentleman has laboured very hard on this Bill and, in our long sessions upstairs, has always shown a spirit of accommodation. I feel that this particular point is perhaps better discussed in another place because Members here are tired and worn out and almost brutalised by the performance of their party Whips. On the whole, it is much better that it should be dealt with in the rather rarefied atmosphere beyond the corridor, so we respectfully tell the Solicitor-General that we accept his assurance, and that we are content to leave the matter where it is for the present.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

9.45 p.m.

I beg to move, in page 30, line 17, after "regard." to insert:

By this time the Committee will be well aware that the Bill provides that quoted securities are to be valued upon an artificial market basis. By "artificial" I mean that the Government have selected certain dates, and that it is on a choice between those dates that the value is to depend. We have objected to that process in principle, but the provisions dealing with unquoted securities are even more objectionable. They seek to import the same principle into the other 2,900-odd classes of security, and they necessarily involve a more artificial set of considerations than where there is some- thing real and definite in the Stock Exchange List. The value of unquoted securities is to be arrived at either by agreement or by arbitration. It might appear on the face of it that the provision as to arbitration would meet some of our objections, but when we study it we find that it is by no means as good as it looks. The actual provisions of the Bill run as follow:

If I might I should like to put this question to hon. Members opposite. If they are valuing something, is it fair to look at one particular factor involved or is it fair to look at all the factors involved? I do not think there can be two opinions as to what the answer to that question is. It must be fair to look at all the factors involved. All that our Amendment seeks to do is to insert in the Bill a provision that the Arbitration Tribunal is to have regard to all the factors involved, and not merely to this one single factor, the comparative value of smaller securities quoted on the Stock Exchange. The suggestion contained in our Amendment is completely in accord with all that has been said in the Debates on previous Amendments. It accords fully with the T.U.C. view that compensation should be on some general basis and on what is fair and not on some arbitrary basis chosen by the Government.

I have no doubt that the Government m their reply will say, "We have already settled the basis for the quoted securities. It is, therefore, impossible in the case of these other classes of securities, which are not quoted, to treat them differently." If that reply is given by the Government they condemn themselves completely as to the argument they put forward on the previous Amendment, because what we say is that they should look at all the relevant factors instead of looking at one factor only, because it is the only way to deal with the matter. If by excluding all the relevant factors and simply sticking to the narrow Stock Exchange basis the Government are going to give different treatment, then that necessarily means that a narrow Stock Exchanges basis differs from a proper and fair basis. If that applies in the case of unquoted securities, it applies equally in the case of securities that are quoted on the Stock Exchange, so that it will not lie in the mouth of the Government to argue that these securities cannot be dealt with in the way we suggest because it involves differential treatment. When the Government suggest it is wrong to deal with this class of security in the same way as quoted securities, they condemn the general Stock Exchange basis as unfair. I do not think that, until we have heard the reply of the Government, I can carry my argument further.

After what has been said by the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Hendon (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth), I do not think that we on this side of the Committee are very far apart from hon. Gentlemen opposite. His argument was based on a misconstruction of the provisions of Clause 24 (9). As I understood his argument, he read it as providing that when the Arbitration Tribunal decides the value of unquoted securities, it has to have regard to nothing except the quoted values of other securities. I should have thought that was an impossible procedure. I do not know how one set of securities could be valued by reference only to the quoted values of others. I certainly do not read the Clause as providing that that shall be the process. On the contrary, it provides virtually for what the hon. Member for South Hendon (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth) had in mind.

All that the Clause provides is that the Arbitration Tribunal, when the question of values is referred to it, shall have regard, "as may be," to the value of quoted securities—that is, as far as they throw any relevant light on the matter. That does not preclude the Arbitration Tribunal from taking into account also any other material circumstance which it feels will lead to a proper conclusion of the fair value to be placed on the securities which it is considering.

Under this form of wording the tribunal would consider all circumstances which could be said to be material to the valuation. The Clause merely requires that, amongst those circumstances, it shall not omit to draw any valid conclusion which it can from a consideration of the quoted values of securities which, by reason of analogous circumstances, can throw some light on the question of value.

I think the hon. Baronet the Member for South Hendon will agree that, if that is the true construction, the basis of his argument goes; if he looks again more closely at the wording he will agree that my interpretation is correct. The wording "shall have regard" does not mean that the Arbitration Tribunal will solely concentrate its attention upon, but shall bear in mind—shall consider amongst other things—the quoted values of securities. That is to be done "as far as may be "—that is, as far as it can be said that any inference can be drawn by a comparison between quoted and unquoted securities. To consider only the quoted price of a security, which is in no sense analogous is obviously a profitless proceeding.

It is provided that where an inference can be drawn between the values of the securities of two companies by a consideration of the quoted price of the securities of one of those companies, that shall be done; the tribunal must have regard to them, it must take them into account. That is all that is required. The tribunal certainly is not precluded from taking within the sphere of its consideration all other circumstances relevant and material to the issue of value. If the hon. Member for South Hendon agrees with my interpretation I hope he will see that the Amendment is not necessary. For those reasons I ask the Committee to reject it.

I was glad to hear the Solicitor-General agree with the general purpose I had in mind in moving the Amendment. Why did he not accept it? He did not devote a single sentence to saying that it was objectionable. Although I did not expect him to accept the Amendment, what he has said now is very different from anything which has been said during the Committee stage or our deliberations elsewhere.

I do not think his interpretation of the Clause is a valid one. Let us suppose, for example, that we have two undertakings of a similar character. Suppose that one of them had its security quoted on the Stock Exchange and so fell under Subsection (2) and the other had unquoted securities. I apprehend that in such a case as that when the Arbitration Tribunal came to assess the value of the unquoted securities they would be bound by the Clause to put upon them precisely the same value as was put upon the quoted security.

I do not think there is any doubt at all that that is the meaning of this. Even if the Tribunal said that the quotation of the securities was as stale as it could be and it was affected by a number of considerations of a purely psychological character which depressed the value of the securities, nevertheless because there was a precise parallel between the two classes of security, they would be bound by the provisions of the Subsection and would put on the unquoted securities precisely the value put on the quoted securities. Will the Solicitor-General say whether, if there was a case where there was a precise parallel of that sort, the Tribunal could completely disregard the quoted case and say that, notwithstanding its existence, they would put a different value on the securities because, say, of the large capital assets in the company? If there were a complete parallel, would not that parallel have to be followed precisely?

10.0 p.m.

I really must press the Solicitor-General a little further. He has not at all answered the very clear and forceful argument of my hon. Friend the Member for South Hendon (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth): The Solicitor-General is not really helping the Committee to get on with the discussion. He agrees with the object of our Amendment, and his argument is that the result is already achieved by the Clause, but he will see that the Clause focuses the attention of the Tribunal on one subject, comparable values, and makes no express reference to any other. Surely it must be the case that where that emphasis is put in the Subsection upon this one par- ticular, unless balancing words inviting its attention, as our Amendment seeks to do, to other matters are included, the Tribunal must give by far the greater part of its attention to the matter to which its attention is specifically drawn by the Subsection. If the Solicitor-General desires it to give full and free consideration to all other relevant factors, it surely must be right to include these words.

I hope that the Solicitor-General, who is normally so very courteous and helpful, will not shut his mind to these arguments. I hope he will address his mind at least to this—putting the argument at its lowest—that he will concede that the words we put forward will not, from his point of view even, do any harm and in fact, they may well exclude the possibility of a misunderstanding. Although the Solicitor-General reads these words one way, hon. Members on this side of the Committee have read them another way, and it is at least possible that members of the Tribunal might construe them as we construe them. If our words are included, there will be no possibility of misunderstanding. We shall then have in black and white what both we and the Solicitor-General want. What harm can be done if we include them?

If the Solicitor-General will not accept that, it is up to him to answer the specific question put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for South Hendon. That is a very fair test of the situation. I hope the Solicitor-General will answer it, but still more I hope that he will not waste the time of the Committee by opposing the inclusion of these words which, on his own showing, can do no harm, which on our showing will at the least prevent ambiguity, and whose intentions are desired by both sides of the Committee.

I do not want to be obstinate about this matter. If there is any real doubt that the Clause means what it has been made out to the Committee that it does mean, we will remove that doubt in another place by inserting the appropriate wording. The intention is—and I say it quite deliberately—that the Tribunal should not be limited to considering only the price of analogous securities, but that it should also be entitled to take into account, if it thinks appropriate in any particular case, the dividend history of any particular undertaking, and similar relevant considerations. The hon. Member for Kingston - upon - Thames (Mr Boyd-Carpenter) asked me not to prolong the discussion unnecessarily, and I am anxious not to do so. However I would like to make quite certain that the wording is the appropriate wording, and in order to remove any question of doubt on that particular score I will undertake that, when this Bill comes before another place, if there is any doubt about it, that doubt will be removed.

Once again we have to thank the Solicitor-General for a very courteous answer and for his reaffirmation of the tremendous usefulness of another place. All the faults we have perpetrated upstairs, and probably will perpetrate here tonight, can always be removed in another place. I must say that the tribute to the other place paid by the Solicitor-General tonight is touching, in view of the speeches made there in the last couple of days.

However, that small observation in no way detracts from our gratitude to the Solicitor-General for his undertaking to put things right in another place if, after consultation with his officials, he recognises the arguments put forward by the hon. Baronet the Member for South Hendon (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth). Oddly enough, the only query I have about the speeches of the Solicitor-General is, why he did not accept our Amendment? If I could have taken his speech down in shorthand and put it in, and you, Sir Charles, could have accepted it as a manuscript Amendment, that would have satisfied us. I cannot understand why the Solicitor-General needs to refer the matter to another place but, having told us that he will meet our objections in the more august House, all I can say is that on the whole we accept his assurance, we look forward greatly to seeing the ingenious wording he will produce in order to meet the dry, clear mind of the hon. Member for South Hendon, and we leave it like that, and will allow the Government to get on with the Bill. They have been hopelessly slow so far.

I hesitate to disagree in any way with my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken), but I think the answer of the hon. and learned Gentleman raises a point of considerable interest. As any ordinary person reading Subsection (9) of this Clause would conclude, what is laid down here is that these securities shall be valued on a notional basis; that is to say, the person valuing them will say, "Supposing these had been quoted on the Stock Exchange, what would they have been worth? "That is the plain meaning of this Subsection, but the Solicitor-General says that is not so, that they will also take into account the dividend record of the company and, presumably, what its assets are worth.

That is precisely what we have asked should be taken into account. If the Solicitor-General says now that in this case, simply because of no quotation of securities, it will be taken into account, he is knocking down the whole basis of compensation under this Bill, and it should go on record that it is the Solicitor-General's view that to value something purely on a guess of what it might have been worth on the Stock Exchange is wrong. He is also saying—I cannot believe he is backed up by the Government—that that is not what they will do, because the logical conclusion from his speech is, not that they will get the notional value as if the shares were quoted, but that they may get either something better or something worse. That clearly is grossly unfair to people who are held on a Stock Exchange value. If the Solicitor-General means what he said, the whole basis of the compensation Clause of the Bill is knocked out.

This is a very important point, and I wish to thank the Solicitor-General for, as I believe, genuinely meeting us in this respect. I do not want any misunderstanding. The Bath Gas Company of which I am a director—

[HON. MEMBERS:

"Hear, hear."]—a very good company, too—is one of the 696 companies to whom this Clause would apply. Its dividend record was very good indeed until the Ministry of Fuel and Power were unable to cope with their request for a revision of the basic price. I want this to be absolutely clear, and I want the Solicitor-General to correct me if I am wrong. In that particular case the Tribunal will, quite rightly, take that into consideration in the valuation of the shares and the compensation to be paid under this Clause. That is what is implied in the very generous and right undertaking, on which I congratulate the Solicitor-General.

In view of the undertaking of the Solicitor-General, I feel I must make an appeal to my hon. Friends to allow the Committee to get along. The Solicitor-General has to make an appeal to another place to improve this Bill. He has mentioned one or two ways in which it can be improved and I have no doubt that the Members of another place, encouraged by his statement tonight, will make even more drastic improvements; but when a concession has been made to us by the Solicitor-General, we should not only take it on its face value, because we know him very well and know that he will fulfil his words, but it would be better to accept it and to thank him, on this day of all days, for pointing out to us the essential part played by another place.

In view of the undertaking given by the Solicitor-General, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 25.—(Increase of value of securities of companies suffering loss of revenue front war causes.)

The first four Amendments can be discussed together. They are those in the names of the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken), in page 31, line 20, to leave out from the beginning to "as," and to insert:

"( a ) the total sales of gas by the company in the year nineteen hundred and forty-three or in the year nineteen hundred and forty-four,"

and in the same line, after "company," to insert:

" in the year nineteen hundred and forty-three or in either of the two succeeding years,

and the Amendments in the name of the Minister also in the same line, after the first "the," to insert "average yearly,"; and, after "company," to insert:

" in the years nineteen hundred and forty-three and nineteen hundred and forty-four."

10.15 p.m

I beg to move, in page 31, line 20, to leave out from the beginning to "as," and to insert:

In Committee upstairs we moved an Amendment which we felt was rather better than the Amendment moved by the Minister. We appreciate that he has tried to meet us, but we do not think that he has really gone far enough. Our point is that whereas the Bill as at present drafted allows war damage claims only to companies with sales which were lower in 1944 than in 1938, we feel that some companies were hit harder in 1943 and 1945 than in 1944. Without going into the history of the air raids on this country, I cannot altogether substantiate this point completely, but I think it will be accepted that there were air raids. I was not in this country myself then, but I am told that there were. I was here in 1944 and I remember the flying bombs and the damage they did. In 1945 there were also the rockets, which did a good deal of harm.

In Committee upstairs we asked that all should be taken into account, and that 1943, 1944 or 1945 should be chosen at the option of the company as the year of assessment. The second Amendment on which I am speaking repeats that request. The Minister's Amendment gives no option, but substitutes for the original provision of 1944 the average of sales in 1943 and 1944. I feel that if that is done some companies will gain and others will lose. In view of the circumstances, it is very hard to get a fair assessment except on a fairly wide basis. That is why we want provision for three years instead of two.

For example, companies whose undertakings were hit by flying bombs in 1944 and 1945 are not to be taken care of because only part of their 1944 sales were affected, and yet in 1945 they suffered considerably. I do not think I need say any more. I am sure that it is the wish of the promoters of the Bill to achieve fairness in this respect as far as possible. Our view is that in view of the diverse circumstances, fairness can be obtained only by taking the widest possible basis. I believe that this Amendment will still further improve the change which is proposed by the Minister's Amendment.

There are undoubtedly a great many companies which will, unless we do something of this kind, suffer very severely as a result of consequences of war damage. I wish to support the Amendment which has been very ably moved by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Colonel Clarke).

I am rather disappointed at the Opposition's attitude to these Amendments. After all, my own Amendment is an attempt to meet them, and I would have hoped that they would have accepted the olive branch and have said "Thank you very much," and that we could have got on with the Bill. This is, as the hon. and gallant Member for East Grinstead (Colonel Clarke) has pointed out, a question of how far we should extend the right to claim additional compensation as a result of war circumstances. In the Bill, we originally proposed that companies which in 1944 had sales of gas "which were substantially lower than in 1938 as a result of war circumstances described in the Bill, and could prove that these had resulted in the Stock Exchange quotations on the relevant dates being lower than they would otherwise have been, could claim additional compensation.

We had in mind then simply and solely the Stock Exchange quotations for the year 1945. We did not think, and I do not think anybody would seriously claim, that the values of securities in 1947 were likely to be affected by the sales of gas in 1944. The sales in that year would be likely to affect the companies' quotations in 1945. The stock values taken in the Bill were in the earlier months of 1945 and not in the later months, and I suggest therefore, that there would be no reason for considering sales in 1945 as well.

I did, however, agree to consider the matter and suggested that we should do something about the year 1943. I agree that precisely because we had taken the Stock Exchange quotations for the earlier months of 1945. There might well be companies the value of whose shares was influenced indirectly by war circumstances occurring in 1943. In effect, therefore, we have, taken care of that in this Amendment under my name by providing that we take, instead of the year 1944, the average of the years 1943 and 1944. I feel that that is a very reasonable proposition. I do not think we need to go further. We must draw the line somewhere. All the time the Opposition are pressing us again and again for more and more compensation. This compensation has to be paid by consumers. I ask my hon. Friends to remember that when we come to the Clauses of the Bill dealing with consumers' protection. On those Clauses we shall probably find the Opposition taking an entirely different line quite inconsistent with the one they are now taking. I think our attitude is a perfectly fair one, and I must, therefore resist the Amendment.

The Minister confessed that he was disappointed with the party on this side. All I can tell him is that we were quite disappointed by his speech. There is a mutual feeling now. We regard his petulence as erroneous when trying to deal with great affairs. There was no necessity whatever for him to give us a lecture on our lack of reasonableness. In point of fact this is a party of improvers. We are hard put to it at the present time, when we get a Bill like this, to fulfil our function. On the other hand, we do not want to be accused of being perfectionists.

I do not think the Minister thoroughly understands what is our aim here. I can only speak from my own limited experience but many of my hon. Friends out of their own practical knowledge, can give the Minister really important evidence to show that this Amendment should be accepted. The Minister has not thoroughly understood the dates. For instance, my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) suffered his war damage long after I did. He does not seem to fit in with these dates. Many other hon. Members have the same experience and the Minister must not accept the glib reassurances of his overworked professionals that this is all right. I should have thought that the Minister might have been converted if many of my hon. Friends could produce some practical illustrations of the consequences upon their constituents of his resistance. They could do it briefly and well.

It is no use the Minister saying that he is disappointed with us. We have not been sent to this House of Commons to play chess with the party opposite. We are here to try to improve an extremely bad Bill. If it could be put into a gas oven, or gasified, probably it would be much better. As we are faced with the grisly object, let us try to cut off a few of its more repulsive tentacles. It is for that reason that I hope some hon. Gentlemen of experience will direct some further constructive suggestions to the Minister.

The Minister opposed the insertion of the year 1945. I do not know why he did that. He said that war damage in 1945 could not have any effect on the 1945 quotations. Obviously it could. The V2 and the flying bomb used at the beginning of 1945 must have affected gasworks, the sales of gas and the quotations. It is true that his Amendment is some improvement. Obviously, when the Bill was first drafted it referred only to the year 1944. That was unfair. He made it a little more fair by including war damage suffered in 1944 and 1943. We ask him to make it still more fair by including war damage suffered in 1945. How can he say that 1945 does not affect the matter? The right hon. Gentleman keeps looking at this as a sort of game between the Opposition and the Government. He has made the Bill fair and he could make it still more fair. There is not such a thing as a concession. He is trying to put a public Bill on the Statute Book. He acknowledges himself that at first it was not fair enough. That is not a concession to us. We do not ask for concessions: we ask only that the basis of compensation should be as fair as possible.

It was the effort of the Opposition which induced him to put down this Amendment. Why is he disappointed with us? He ought to be grateful to us for pointing out where the compensation was not fair. It is no good lecturing us about this. He must meet an argument with a reasonable answer and not indulge in a kind of Parliamentary dialectic by saying that he is very disappointed that the Opposition do this or that. I prophesy that in a short time he will say that he is very disappointed because the Opposition do not oppose enough. That is a favourite trick of the Lord President of the Council. It is another Parliamentary trick which takes the place of valid arguments on the part of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, especially those on the Front Bench.

I ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell us why war damage suffered by gas undertakings in 1945, which obviously must affect their quotations in 1945, should not be taken into account as suggested in our Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman took as his next argument the suggestion that the consumer has to pay the compensation. Presumably, the argument was that, although it is fair, it is not right to ask the consumer to pay this last bit of fair compensation. He said that he had to draw the line somewhere. It is not in accordance with English justice to draw the line where the line causes an injustice. Why draw the line at an injustice? The Minister ought to draw the line where it is fair. I ask him to produce some logical and reasonable argument to meet this Amendment and to show why the years 1943 to 1945 would not be much fairer than only the years 1943 and 1944.

10.30 p.m.

I support the appeal made by my hon. Friend the Member for Northwich (Mr. Foster). Not for the first time I was shocked by the Minister's observations. He said rightly, "Of course, the Opposition are demanding another year, which means that the consumers must pay more." Later on, he said, a very different action might be adopted by the Opposition. It is perfectly correct and I will say why. We on this side are trying to get some form" of justice. When the question of consumers' interests arise later, we shall endeavour to improve the powers pro- perly to protect the consumers, so far as they can be protected under this iniquitous Measure.

But at the moment we are dealing with the question of whether compensation for war damage whether paid by consumers or anybody else, should be fair or unfair. The Minister shrugs his shoulders and says, "I have made one compromise, I have taken one step "; and expects hon. Members on this side to bow their heads and say, "How awfully good of you." We are not seeking smiles from the Minister; we are seeking justice for all sections of the community, and the sooner the Minister realises that concessions to us are nothing, and that what we want is the turning of something that was an injustice into something that is just, the sooner we shall get a more realistic view in regard to 'these Amendments

As my hon. Friend pointed out, the early part of 1945 was a period in which very great damage was done, by the flying bomb, that particularly unpleasant form of entertainment which Hitler sent over to us. That inevitably affected shares in a number of companies. If, instead of waving 1945 aside, the Minister gave some sort of explanation of why 1945 is completely inapplicable, while 1943 and 1944 are applicable, we might understand it. We are not going to be swept aside by inadequate compromises. We are not out for that, but to get the best year in the interests of those who suffered from war damage. I hope the Minister will go a step further to explain his attitude, which seems to me to be unsuitable for a Minister.

As this Clause reads, the Minister is committed to making a certain additional payment provided it meets the terms of Subsection (1, a), which says, if a flying bomb hit a gasworks in 1944, then the only time it would show in the company's account would be in 1945. He says "We are satisfied with our arrangements, and we are not going to alter them."

I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman make an effort to put Amendments on the Order Paper which justify what he is striving to do to meet the Opposition. He should at least make certain that these Amendments will cover damage done during the war. As I understand the speech which was made from the Government Front Bench, no attempt has been made to do that. In effect, the Government say that they are satisfied that the limit of the average figure which they are suggesting meets the case; but they have done nothing to meet the question of what happens as a result of damage caused during the latter part of the war, in which it may well be that a flying bomb or V2, caused damage. That damage may have occurred in 1944. It cannot possibly be shown in the accounts of the company until 1945. Yet this type of case is not in any sense touched by what the Government are doing. Any damage at that time is left out by this particular Amendment. If the Clause, which has the very pretty title:

I have looked again at the Amendments put down to meet the position. All that the right hon. Gentleman has done has been to take the average yearly value of two years. He has said nothing, so far in this Debate, to show why he has taken these two years. I cannot see why he has taken them. They do not meet the case, either as propounded in Committee upstairs or tonight. They make the whole thing a travesty, as the Minister must be the first to admit. He is saying that they are going to provide extra compensation; but he says that it is not the loss on each year that will be paid, but that the compensation will be paid on all the cases which he knows will not appear. He is making no effort to meet what was said upstairs by a number of hon. Members about flying bombs and V2's. Where there was an attack which caused damage, it may have taken place in one. calendar year but the effect may have shown only in the next financial year. No provision has been made to meet that.

As far as the Minister's Amendments are concerned, they do not meet any claim that we have made. They merely say that, in the two years quoted, there shall be an average made; but that average does not cover one of the contingencies which we have propounded, particularly in regard to those assaults made by the enemy in the latter part of the war. If the Amendments put down by the Government are agreed to, then a great number of companies will be left without any possible recompense for the damage they suffered after that. Unless we get these latter years in, we shall make Clause 25 a sheer mockery, and for that reason I hope that our Amendments will be agreed to by the Committee.

The hon. Member for Wavertree (Mr. Raikes) says that what hon. Gentlemen want is justice. I appeal to the hon. Members not to insist on that, because when justice is served out, it will be a woeful day for the Tory Party. An hon. Member has told us that he is associated with a gasworks, a big gasworks, but it was not the gasworks which sent him to this House, but his constituents, and yet he is getting up here and demanding that more should be taken off his constituents to hand over to his gasworks. Justice? Yes, I hope before long to see justice being done in England. I ask hon. Members on this side of this Committee whether it has been a pleasure to sit here all these weary hours and watch the writhings and twistings of these shameless pedlars? I want to draw a lesson from what has been happening here. The lesson is—abolish the Stock Exchange and compensation. Then these weary, miserable sittings will not bother us any more, and we shall have some hope of brighter days in the future.

I do not understand why the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) does not realise that his demands are exactly the same as ours. We want brighter evenings in the future and better illumination. I think we have had a considerable Debate, and I wonder whether we could not now bring it to a conclusion. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman had certainly seen that there was something in our arguments. He has come some way to meet us, but not all the way. I think that he was under a misunderstanding when he said that damage would not be reflected until one had got the accounts presented. As everyone knows when the flying bombs were coming over and houses were being blown down around the very ears of owners, there was a drop in house values. The same thing happened to these shares.

Could not the right hon. Gentleman meet us and give us the option of the two years he has mentioned? He has mentioned the average of the years; let him compromise with us and give us the option of the two. If he could offer to give us that, we might come to an agreement and get on with the Bill. I do not think that is an unfair suggestion to make. If he would undertake to look at it, we would be anxious to accept the not inadequate offer he has made. I think that is a fair suggestion, and if he can meet us we will pass on. Is he in a position to make any comment now?

The right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) turned to his supporters and asked them to produce some evidence in support of the case. His appeal fell on deaf ears. I say seriously that I have not got a closed mind on this, and I have listened carefully to what has been said, but there have been no concrete, solid arguments put forward—only a little irritation at some harmless words of mine I am certainly anxious that the right hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) should offer olive branches and I am anxious to come to terms with him, but at present I can give no undertaking. I do offer to look at the arguments again; the matter can be reconsidered; but I cannot agree to make any concession.

10.45 p.m.

It is a little hard that the Minister should say "I have not heard enough "when I suggest that the Debate should come to an end. I was doing my best to truncate this discussion, but it is very difficult to meet the right hon. Gentleman when he tells us that he is not yet convinced.

I am sorry that my invitation to my hon. Friends to give the Minister some constructive instances has had no effect. The distributor of olive branches has given one good example of the arrival of the flying-bombs or "doodlebugs "in 1945; they changed the whole course of gas share prices in the London area, because on the arrival of these unpleasant objects people sold gas shares for the reason that these flying bombs had an uncanny habit of settling themselves on the top of properties belonging to the gas companies. I can tell the Minister that there is no lack of willingness to try to comfort him. There is a great desire on this side to get on with the Bill, and we have put a perfectly good point of view to him. But what does he say? He says "I will give no concession, although I will think it over." I suggest that it would be more gracious to adopt the masterly policy of the learned Solicitor-General and say that in another place—and that place has been the principal crutch of the Government tonight—after this matter has been pondered, some action might be taken. We might then say 'Farewell' to it.

But before we do so, I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that one of our most important cities is Sheffield, and one of the brightest of the stars of Sheffield's representatives, my hon. Friend behind me, have suggestions to put to him. Why not let this matter be dealt with in another place? These are not technical points and if I were the Minister I would give an assurance that this particular suggestion of ours will go to another place. What its fate there will be, I do not know. If the Minister will do this, and will also hear the wisdom of Sheffield which will shortly, I hope, attract his attention, then we can get on with greater speed. I must say that it really is a most sorrowful fact, from the point of view of the Opposition, that we cannot get on with the Bill, due to obstructive Ministers and ignorant but extremely vocal gentlemen sitting behind them who are apparently not allowed to speak but only to interrupt. They do not help us to get on. It is our real desire to add improvements to this singularly rotten Bill, and if the Minister will meet us I think we can make progress before tomorrow morning. Meanwhile, I am standing in the way of the light of Sheffield.

I have risen only because of the speech of the Minister. If he wants to consider cases, particularly in the South of England, there are many companies which suffered damage not only in 1944 but in 1943 and 1945. I would refer, first, to the Brighton, Hove and Worthing Gas Company, which suffered considerable damage; also the Croydon Gas Company and the Eastbourne Gas Company, both of which suffered damage and already are preparing claims of this kind. There are also the South Metropolitan Gas Company, the South Suburban Gas Company, the Broadstairs Gas Company, the Folkestone Gas Company, the Hastings Gas Company, the Herne Bay Gas Company, and the North Middlesex Gas Company. I have the names of other companies, but I hope those will be sufficient, and I hope the Minister will ask his Department to look into their cases and see what damage was done. I can assure him that in these companies, damage occurred in 1943 and 1944, and some in 1945. That is the evidence for which I think the Minister was asking, and I would like to reinforce what my right hon. Friend said just now—I should have thought it would have been possible for the Minister to have given a more firm assurance than he has done. I hope his mind may be clarified and that there may be an Amendment in another place.

I should like to take some small share in the public duty of clarification and elucidation of the mind of the Minister. The hour is late, but it is never too late to mend defects in any direction. I want to supplement what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Ecclesall (Mr. P. Roberts). He quoted a list of very great and poignant incidents in our history. They were received as if they were matters of levity and jest, but for the people concerned they were grave matters, and very serious matters for the stockholders and local authorities concerned. I think my hon. Friend has understated the case. Those incidents he quoted are compiled from the war damage claims. Only if you multiply them by 20 will you get a more proper measure of the actual damage done.

If the Minister really requires such detailed information—and I can hardly believe he should want it—lists of these episodes can be supplied by his own officials or by hon. Members on these Benches. But surely what he wants is overwhelming evidence of the facts. The facts, I thought, were widely and generally known, and I understand the precise details have been given, but I supplement what has been said by saying that if one multiplies by 20, one will find the kind of evidence the Minister requires. I repeat that if there is any evidence required to supplement what I have said, there are quite a number of my hon. Friends here who are ready to do their share in this duty of public education.

The chief argument why we should ask the Minister to consider this, is that this Clause starts off, "If it appears to the Minister …" It is only "if it appears to the Minister" that this Amendment can begin to be operative in the slightest. What we are asking the Minister to do is not to limit in any way the giving of justice to these particular companies. The point made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Cros-thwaite-Eyre) in regard to accountancy ought to be followed up by the point of replacement; that is to say, in the difficulties of replacement it has clearly been impossible for many of these companies to give added sales of gas which they would have done if some of their equipment, which was destroyed, had been available to them now.

What we on this side of the Committee are saying to the Minister is, "Do not limit yourself in what you can consider. In the year 1945 there were diminished sales by reason of the damage which took place in earlier years. Those diminished sales were due, not to the damage done precisely in that year, but to the fact that the equipment which was damaged in the earlier years was still out of commission or non-existent during 1945." In other words, the effects of war damage in 1943 and 1944 clearly and obviously carried over into 1945 and were cumulative. It was in 1945 that the most cumulative and important effect of all previous war damage was felt. In any adjustment he might make under this Clause, the Minister would be limited by the omission of the most important year of all. Therefore, with my hon. Friends, I am asking him to have this matter considered in another place—if he cannot accept our Amendment—in the hope that he will be able to meet us on what is a matter of principle.

When I moved this Amendment I acknowledged that the Minister had gone a certain way to meet us since the Committee stage. I regret that the Minister, in his reply, accused us of being ungrateful. We have now gone a further step to meet him. That step was received with what I might call

low jeers from those sitting behind the" Minister and with a faint response from the Minister himself. I do not think I can accept that faint response as sufficient assurance and let this matter pass. We on this side of the Committee ought to divide on it.

Question put, "That the first the 'stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 283; Noes, 80.

Division No. 201.]

AYES.

[11.1 p.m.

Acland, Sir Richard

Dodds, N. N.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Donovan, T

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V

Dugdale, J. (W Bromwich)

Irving, W.J.(Tottenham, N.)

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Dumpleton, C. W.

Issacs, Rt. Hon. G. A

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Durbin, E. F. M.

Jenkins, R. H.

Alpass, J. H.

Dye, S.

Jones, D. T (Hartlepool)

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Attewell, H. C.

Edelman, M.

Keenan, W

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C R

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Kendall, W D

Austin, H. Lewis

Edwards, John (Caerphilly)

Kenyon, C.

Awbery, S. S.

Edwards, W. J (Whitechapel)

Key, Rt. Hon. C W

Ayles, W. H.

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

King, E. M.

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

Kinghorn, Sgn.-Ldr. E.

Bacon, Miss A

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Kinley, J.

Baird, J

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Lang, G.

Balfour, A.

Ewart. R

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

Fairhurst, F.

Leonard, W.

Barstow, P. G

Farthing, W. J

Levy, B. W.

Barton, C.

Fernyhough, E.

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Battley, J. R.

Field, Capt. W. J.

Lindgren, G. S.

Bechervaise, A. E

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

Logan, D. G.

Belcher, J. W.

Foot, M. M.

Lyne, A. W.

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

Forman, J. C.

McAdam, w.

Beswick, F.

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

McEntee, V. La T.

Bing, G. H. C.

Freeman, J. (Watford)

McGhee, H. G.

Binns, J.

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Mack, J. D.

Blackburn, A. R

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H T N

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Blenkinsop, A.

Gallacher, W.

Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

Blyton, W R

Ganley, Mrs. C. S

McKinlay, A. S.

Boardman, H.

Gibbins, J.

McLeavy, F.

Bottomley, A. G.

Gibson, C. W.

Macpherson, T. (Remford)

Bowden, Flg Offr. H. W.

Gilzean, A

Mainwaring, W. H.

Bowen, R.

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Geoch, E. G.

Mann, Mrs. J.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

Gordon-Walker, P. C.

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Graville, E. (Eye)

Marquand, H. A.

Brook, D (Halifax)

Greenwood, A. W J (Heywood)

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Grey, C F

Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

Brown, George (Belper)

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Mellish, R. J.

Brown. T J. (Ince)

Griffiths, W D. (Moss Side)

Mikardo, Ian

Buchanan, Rt. Hon. G

Guy, W H

Monslow, W.

Burden, T. W.

Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

Moody, A. S

Burke, W. A.

Hale, Leslie

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Morley, R.

Carmichael, James

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Champion, A. J.

Hannan, W (Maryhill)

Mort, D. L.

Chetwynd, G. R

Hardy, E. A.

Moyle, A

Coldrick, W.

Harrison, J.

Murray, J. D

Collindridge, F.

Hastings, Dr Somerville

Nally, W.

Collins, V. J

Haworth, J.

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Colman, Miss G. M.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Kingswinfora

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Comyms, Dr. L.

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

O'Brien, T.

Corbel, Mrs. F. K (Camb'well. N.W.)

Herbison, Miss M

Oldfield, W. H

Corlett, Dr. J.

Hobson, C. R.

Oliver, G. H.

Cove, W G

Holman, P.

Orbach, M.

Daggar, G

Holman, H E. (Hemsworth)

Paget, R T.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Horbin, T. L.

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

House, G.

Palmer, A. M. F

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Hoy, J.

Pargiter, G. A.

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Hubbard, T.

Parker, J.

Deer, G.

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Parkin, B. T.

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushclifle)

Delargy, H. J.

Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Diamond, J.

Hutchinsen, H. L. (Rusholme)

Pearson, A.

Pearl, T. F.

Solley, L. J.

Warbey, W. N

Perrins, W.

Sorensen, R. W.

Watkins, T. E.

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Soskice, Sir Frank

Watson, W. M

Pritt, D. N.

Sparks, J. A.

Weitzman, D.

Pursey, Cmdr. H.

Steele, T.

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Randall, H. E

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Wells, W. T (Walsall)

Ranger, J.

Stross, Dr. B.

West, D. G.

Rankin, J.

Stubbs, A. E.

Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

Rees-Williams, D. R

Summerskill, Dr. Edith

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J. (Edinburgh, E.)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Swingler, S.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Rhodes, H.

Sylvester, G. O.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Richards, R.

Symonds, A. L.

Wigg, George

Robens, A.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Wilkins, W. A.

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Robertson, J J. (Berwick)

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Rogers, G. H. R.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Royle, C.

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

Sargood, R.

Tiffany, S.

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Segal, Dr. S.

Titterington, M. F.

Willis, E.

Sharp, Granville

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

Wills, Mrs E. A.

Shawcross, C. N. (Wictnes)

Turner-Samuels, M.

Wise, Major F. J.

Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Usborne, Henry

Woods, G. S.

Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

Vernon, Maj. W. F

Yates, V. F

Simmons, C. J

Viant, S. P.

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Skeffinglon, A. M

Wadsworth, G.

Skinnard, F. W.

Walkden, E.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

Walker, G. H.

Mr. Popplewell and

Snow, J. W.

Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow E.)

Mr. George Wallace.

NOES.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

Haughton, S. G.

Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

Amory, D. Heathcoat

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Baldwin, A. E

Howard, Hon. A.

Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

Barlow, Sir J.

Hurd, A.

Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Baxter, A. B.

Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

Sanderson, Sir F.

Birch, Nigel

Jennings, R.

Scott, Lord W.

Bower, N.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E A H

Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Smiles, Lt.-Col Sir W.

Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Spearman, A. C. M

Carson, E.

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Sutcliffe, H.

Channon, H.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G

MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

McKie, J. J. (Galloway)

Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

Crowder, Capt. John E

Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

Thonton-Kemsley, c. N.

Darling, Sir W. Y.

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Teuche, G. C.

Davidson, Viscountess

Manningham-Buller, R. E.

Wakefiald, Sir W W

De la Bere, R.

Marples, A. E.

Walker-Smith, D.

Digby, S. W.

Molson, A. H. E.

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

Watt Sir G. S. Harvie

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Nield, B (Chester)

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W.

Noble, Comdr A H. P

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Osberne, C.

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

Peto, Brig, C. H. M.

Willioughby de Eresby, Lord

Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D.

Pitman, I. J.

Glyn, Sir R.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Grimston, R. V.

Raikes, H. V.

Mr. Studholme and

Harvey, Air-Cmdre A V

Rayner, Brig R

Brigadier Mackeson.

Amendments made: In page 31, line 20, after the first "the" insert "average yearly."

In line 20, after "company" insert: "in the years nineteen hundred and forty-three and nineteen hundred and forty-five "

In line 31, leave out from "lower," to" than," in line 32.—

I beg to move, in page 31, line 33, to leave out "and," and to insert: revenue for either of the causes mentioned in the Clause. I move this Amendment with some confidence, because the Government have really admitted that this is their intention. If hon. Members will be good enough to look at the rubric which stands besides the Clause, they will see that it reads:

The point was raised in the Standing Committee on the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," and the right hon. Gentleman said that if the costs of companies went up, increases in charges were, generally speaking, granted. That was not a very satisfactory answer. In the first place, if he meant by "generally speaking" in some cases but not in others, it is obviously entirely unfair where an increase in charges has been permitted that a company should not suffer but where increases in charges have for some reason been postponed, a company should suffer. If the right hon. Gentleman meant to infer that, in fact, increases in charges were so general as to make an Amendment of this kind unnecessary, I can only say that he was misinformed.

A specific example which I can give is the case of the Connahs Quay Gas Company, where the right hon. Gentleman's Ministry asked the company to reduce water-gas to the maximum extent in order to meet very heavy demands which were made upon the company because it is situated in an area in North Wales where large numbers of the population came during the war. In fact, the heavy demands made on the company, which it succeeded in meeting, were supplied by going outside the normal area for the purchase of coke. The result was that the cost of the manufacture of gas was increased from 6.67d. per therm in 1940 to 13d. per therm in 1943. That is a case where, as I understand the Clause as drafted, there would be no assistance.

There is no question of a loss on total sales. There is, however, a substantial loss of revenue, because in 1943 gas was sold by the company at a loss of 1.82d. per therm compared with a profit of over 2½. per therm in 1940. That is a clear case in which it is absolutely necessary that the Clause should be amended in the sense that we suggest. The Amendment is limited strictly to the two types of case already referred to in the Bill—war damage and movement of population. That is reasonable. What would be entirely unreasonable would be a set of circumstances where those causes bring about a loss and where, in one case, the company would be able to take advantage of this provision—namely, where sales have dropped—but, in another case, the company would not be able to take any advantage.

11.15 p.m.

I support the Amendment, and I suggest that if the rubric to the Clause means anything at all, it means-that the Amendment should be accepted. The Clause, as drafted, clearly says that the audited accounts are to be the criterion for ascertaining the drop in income as compared with 1938. That is capable of proof beyond all doubt. It is easy to-trace the drop in income and to find out the reason for the drop in profit. Anyone analysing the accounts could give a clear reason why the drop has taken place—either through a movement of population or for the other cause mentioned in the Clause. This Amendment gives full weight to the intentions of the Government as outlined in the rubric. If it means anything at all, it surely means that the decrease due to the two substantial causes should be considered. There is no reason why the Minister should not accept the Amendment if he has it in his mind to carry out that intention. If the Minister's intention is right, and if he means what he says, he should accept our suggestion.

The Amendment provides that as an additional alternative to a drop in the sales of gas as the first step in the claim to additional compensation,, there should also be a drop in the net revenue, compared in each case, of course, with 1938. Where the drop in net revenue is the result of or associated with a decline in sales, the Amendment is not needed. If it is so associated, then I think Members opposite will agree there-will be no need for this alternative, because the company concerned will already be able to claim under the Bill as it stands. Therefore, the Amendment is only relevant if there has been no substantial drop in sales compared with 1938.

In such a case, one asks oneself for what reason would net revenue have declined. Hon. Members have pointed out that it would be because of the increase in costs. I am bound to say I think the illustrations given by the hon. Baronet were not very convincing. He took the case of a company in North Wales and spoke of that company as one which had suffered despite the fact they had an additional consuming population—" despite" in the sense that additional sales are normally conducive to additional profit; but I agree that in this case extra expenditure had to be incurred to supply additional gas. That company would not have been covered by the Amendment because it lays down that the decline in net revenue must be due to the causes specified in paragraph (a). These refer to

The hon. Member for Ecclesall (Mr. P. Roberts) read out a list of watering places in our last discussion, and he was perfectly right. Whatever we did about the last Amendment, they would be affected by this one. They are towns from which large movements of population took place and undoubtedly they will have received, I hope, considerable advantage from this part of the Bill. To say that we should consider nil those parts of the country which benefited in the sense that they had additional consuming population, is, in my view, going much too far.

The hon. Baronet said that I had only mentioned that we agreed that charges should go up, in the case of increased prices. A specific order was made by the then Minister of Fuel and Power that in calculating maximum dividend, no account should be taken of any increase in the price of coal or oil. Since the increase in fuel prices was obviously the major reason for the increase in costs, that was a very important concession. The second point is that when the Ministry of Fuel wished to encourage the use of water-gas, they provided a subsidy, and by and large that took care of any increased cost which the company concerned might have incurred. It now has been brought to an end, but very large sums were paid out under it.

I do not say that the Government saw that perfect justice was done in every case, but I do say that by and large the extra cost was met by the subsidy. I cannot accept this Amendment.

There is another difficulty. If we are to take a decline in revenue as one of the criteria here, I think it would in practice be extremely difficult to apply. The hon. Member for Hallam (Mr. Jennings) seemed to imply that it was the easiest thing in the world to detect whether the net revenue declined or not. I do not contest that, but what we have to consider is whether it is the easiest thing in the world to decide whether the decline in that revenue is due to the increase in costs which is in itself due to the causes mentioned in paragraph (a). That," I suggest, is a much more difficult task. After all, one would have to decide whether the costs had increased as a result of some inefficiency on the part of the management, which might have been the cause. In the case of sales of gas, it is a much easier proposition. We know that the sales have diminished. There must be some reason for that diminution and the reason might be the transfer of population. If one gets into the wider field of the general financial position of the company as affected by the war, then one gets into great difficulties. For all these reasons, I must ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.

Would it not be proper to ask for an audited certificate analysing the figures? The auditors would not give a certificate if it did not state the perfectly true circumstances. Auditing is an honourable profession, and the auditors' certificates would give a perfectly good survey which it would be proper to accept. They have to give similar certificates in connection with other matters in the ordinary course of their business. It would be perfectly easy for them to give one analysing the figures as I have suggested.

May I take the matter further? We are trusting the Minister. We are merely suggesting one more ground on which representation may be made to him. This is not compelling the Minister; it merely opens one case which the Minister can examine. Indeed, the Minister has power to say that our Amendment does not go far enough. I think it is true to say that he put his finger on the point when he said that damage may have been caused by the transfer of population from any part of any area. I think it is also true, from instances given by my hon. Friend, that damage to revenue may result from population being transferred to any part of an area. Will not the Minister take this into consideration and see whether, when the Bill goes to another place, that aspect might not be examined also? I have had experience of these things. I was in charge of evacuation operations in 1939 and 1940. Undoubtedly, enormous movements of population took place then. The companies might have suffered from that. There was a transfer of enormous populations to North Wales from Liverpool and Merseyside.

All we are asking, with regard to audited accounts, is that it shaft be possible for the Minister to take them into consideration when they are submitted. At present his hands are tied. We are merely asking him to assume a discretion here. It may be that the Amendment is not worded quite as it should be. It may be that, as the Minister appeared to suggest, the Amendment has been drawn a little too narrowly, but I am sure that the Minister would not wish to ride off on that score. He has said that he could not pretend to take into account every possible kind of diminution of revenue through war causes. The case of Connahs Quay has been given as one in which a considerable increase in the cost of gas took place through the transfer of population. It is not one of those ordinary things which can be brushed aside, but is an example of serious injury being caused in this way. If the Minister will undertake to look at this between now and further stages of the Bill, we shall be content, but we cannot leave it as it is, with the Minister saying that he closes his mind altogether. For reasons of the discretion of the Minister, audited accounts, things arising out of the war, and specific executive acts of the Government, it should be possible for him to meet us a little further and not close his mind to a further consideration of our arguments.

11.30 p.m.

I will only say two things. First, that although it has been pointed out that the Clause starts with "If it appears to the Minister …" and the right hon. and gallant Gentleman suggests that it is within my discretion, if he turns to Subsection (2) he will find it is not so, because that Subsection commences "If the Minister refuses …" and then it goes to arbitration. Secondly, the rubric refers to revenue but not to net revenue; and it does appear from the context that it means gross revenue. Therefore, I must stand firm and I cannot extend the field any further. We had in mind the companies who suffered from bomb damage and transfers of populations, and this Amendment would extend it over the whole country. I must ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.

It seems very difficult to reason with the Minister. He listened to a number of speeches from us couched in the most moderate terms, pointing out that in fact, if he were to accept the Amendment, it would not spread all over the country. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ecclesall (Mr. P. Roberts) out, the Minister's obligations would be quite limited. Does the Minister want me to go on with the Bill forever? Having spent three and half months with it, I should almost like to take a respectful" farewell of it. I should like to see an end to it, but unfortunately we cannot improve it because of the unfortunate decision of the electors in 1945. Would it not be better to speed up public business by accepting our Amendment?[ Interruption. ] Hon. Member opposite must not start baying at the Minister to decide. It is for him to decide. We are not at a Labour Party meeting upstairs, and I appealing to him.

If he accepts it, it will be unnecessary for us to divide on it. If, on the other hand, we are going to have this bleak bureaucratic opposition, then, of course, we must tread the Lobbies instead of being asked to use our brains. Owing to the perverse obstinacy of the Minister we have to march through the Lobbies. If that is the Minister's idea of how to improve the Bill, we shall be quite willing to go into the Lobby, and we greatly regret his mulish obstinacy. I have some affection for him, having sat so close to him for so long, but I am losing it fast, because I have rarely seen a Minister showing such lack of consideration for friendly advice based entirely on the public interest. I am afraid it is the growls and grunts from behind which make the right hon. Gentleman take this intransigent attitude.

After my right hon. Friend has failed, I have not much hope of making the Minister change his mind. But I want to put one point which I hope he will treat seriously. He said that the only way there might be a loss was by diminution of sale, and that that was the only way these companies can claim this war damage. But there are a number of cases where companies, in order to keep up the supply of gas, had to put in extra machinery, or repair old machinery, and thereby increase their costs. It does seem that this is something which has escaped the Minister's mind. One cannot judge the damage which a company has suffered purely by seeing whether the sales of gas go up or down.

I should have thought that the Minister does not want only to compensate those companies where the sales have gone down, but also those where war damage has been caused and where, I would remind him, the companies have kept sales going by spending a great deal of money. Reading HANSARD, I think that it must be quite clear that the Minister seemed to exclude this possibility altogether, and he has apparently closed his mind. Secondly, he talks of the subsidy on water gas; but that came on four years after the relevant date. These two points are factors which the Minister does not seem to appreciate. Can he give an assurance that he will do so? Has he got them in mind?

The crucial point, I think, is the total sales of gas by the company, and what we are trying to say is that it is not only in terms of sales of gas that an undertaking can suffer because of the war. As has been said, that it is largely the East Coast and South Coast towns from which there has been a great exodus of people, and sales of gas have, as a result, fallen considerably. But there are other ways in which a company can raise revenue apart from sales of gas. Let us take cookers and fires, sold through the hire departments. When there is a big exodus of people from a given place, there is a breach of many of these hire-purchase arrangements and the company is put to expense. They have to seal off the gas and send someone to remove the equipment, which then has to be stored, and the company gets no return on it whatever

In the same way, on the other side of the account there are expenses due to the war. This particularly refers to the other case the Minister may consider, that is, bombing. Companies have had added expenditure because of bombing; there were overtime and travelling expenses paid to those people who lost their homes and had to go to live in some Other place. There are a whole lot of causes which can adversely effect the net revenue of the company owing to bomb damage or evacuation. The Minister said, in reply to my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot), that if he took a view when considering this—and my right hon. and gallant Friend said that all he had to do was to consider it—and if the other parties took an adverse view of that, then they could take it to an Arbitration Tribunal. Surely it is not suggested that the Arbitration Tribunal is going to do anything that is unfair? The essence of the Arbitration Tribunal is that justice should be done and that justice should appear to be done.

Therefore, all that the whole of this Clause seeks to do is to ensure, first, that the Minister can have power to take within his purview all the causes which, by reason of bombs or evacuation, could have caused a financial loss to a company, and secondly, it means that in the event of any conflict of opinion between the Minister and those who think they have suffered loss, the issue may go to an Arbitration Tribunal whose sole object and raison d'etre is to see that justice is done. I cannot see why the Minister should confine himself to that form of damage which arises by reduction of volume of gas sold. The other points are clearly proved and clearly matters of principle, and ones which I should have thought the Minister would have been the first to recognise and put right.

Question put, "That 'and' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 238; Noes, 64.

Division No. 202.]

AYES.

[11.45 p.m.

Acland, Sir Richard

Freeman, J. (Watford)

O'Brien, T.

Adams Richard (Balham)

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Oldfield, W. H

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

Oliver, G. H

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

Gibbins, J.

Grbach, M

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Gibson, C. W.

Paget, R. T.

Allen, Scholeheld (Crewe)

Gilzean, A.

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Anderson, A. (Mother-well)

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Palmer, A. M. F.

Austin, H. Lewis

Gooch, E. G.

Pargiter, G. A

Awbery, S. S.

Gordon-Walker, P. C.

Parker, J.

Ayles, W. H.

Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

Parkin, B. T

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

Grey, C. F.

Pearson, A.

Bacon, Miss A

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Peart, T. F

Baird, J.

Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

Perrins, W.

Balfour, A.

Guy, W. H

Popplewell, E.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

Hale, Leslie

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Barton, C.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Pritt, D N

Bechervaise, A. E.

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

Randall, H E

Belcher, J. W.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Ranger, J

Beswick, F.

Haworth, J.

Rankin, J

Bing, G. H. C.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Kingswintord)

Rees-Williams, D R

Blackburn, A. R

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Rhodes, H.

Blenkinsop, A

Her bison, Miss M

Richards, R.

Blyton, W. R.

Hobson, C. R.

Robens, A.

Boardman, H.

Holman, P.

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Bottomley, A. G.

Holmes, H E. (Hemsworth)

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

Horabin, T. L.

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

House, G.

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

Hoy, J.

Royle, C.

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Hubbard, T.

Sargood, R.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Shackleton, E. A. A

Brown, George (Belper)

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Sharp, Granville

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Shawcross, C. N. (Widmes)

Buchanan, Rt. Hon. G

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Burke, W. A.

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

Callaghan, James

Isaacs, R. Hon. G. A.

Skeffington, A. M

Carmichael, James

Jenkins, R. H.

Skinnard, F. W

Champion, A. J.

Jones, D. T (Hartlepool)

Snow, J. W.

Cold rick, W.

Keenan, W.

Solley, L. J.

Collindridge, F.

Kenyon, C.

Sorensen, R. W

Collins, V. J.

King, E. M

Soskice, Sir Frank

Colman, Miss G. M.

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E

Sparks, J. A

Comyns, Dr. L.

Kinley, J.

Steele, T.

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

Lang, G.

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Corlett, Dr. J.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Stubbs, A. E.

Cove, W. G.

Leonard, W.

Summerskill, Dr Edith

Crossman, R. H. S.

Lever, N. H.

Sylvester, G. O

Daggar, G.

Levy, B. W.

Symonds, A. L

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Lindgren, G. S.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Lyme, A. W.

Taylor, R. J.(Morpeth)

Davies, Harold (Leek)

McAllister, G.

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

McEntee, V La T

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

de Freitas, Geoffrey

McGhee, H. G

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Delargy, H. J.

Mack, J. D.

Thomas, John R.(Dover)

Diamond, J.

Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Dodds, N. N

McKinlay, A. S.

Tiffany, S.

Donovan, T.

McLeavy, F.

Titterington, M. F.

Oriberg, T E.N.

Macpherson, T. (Romford)

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon G

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Mainwaring, W H.

Ungoed-Thomas, L

Durbin, E. F. M.

Mallalieu, J. P. W (Huddersfield)

Usborne, Henry

Dye, S.

Mann, Mrs. J

Vernon, Maj. W F

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Mrs. L (Epping)

Walkden, E

Edelman, M.

Marquand, H. A.

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Marshall, F (Brightside)

Wallace, H. W (Walthamstow, E)

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

Warbey, W. N

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

Mellish, R. J.

Watkins, T E

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Mikardo, Ian

Watson, W M

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Mitchison, G. R.

Weitzman, D.

Ewart, R.

Monslow, W.

Wells, P. L (Faversham)

Fairhurst, F.

Moody, A. S.

Wells, W. T (Walsall)

Farthing, W. J

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

West, D G

Fernyhough, E.

Morris, P.(Swansea, W.)

White, H (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Field, Capt. W. J.

Mort, D. L.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

Fletcher, E. G. M (Islington, E.)

Moyle, A.

Wigg, George

Foot, M. M.

Neal, H (Claycross)

Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.

Forman, J. C.

Noel-baker, capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P.J. (Derby)

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Wills, Mrs. E A.

Yates, V F

Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

Wilmot, Rt Hon. J

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Williams, W R. (Heston)

Wise, Major F. J.

Willis, E.

Woods, G. S.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Mr. Simmons and Mr Wilkins.

NOES.

Amory, D. Heathcoat

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

Baldwin, A. E.

Grimston, R. V.

Raikes, H. V.

Barlow, Sir J.

Haughton, S. G

Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Birch, Nigel

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

Bossom, A. C.

Howard, Hon. A

Ropner, Col. L.

Bowen, R.

Hurd, A.

Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Bower, N

Hutchison, Lt.-Cdr. Clark (Edin'gh, W.)

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Jennings, R.

Spearman, A. C. M

Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

Keeling, E. H.

Sutcliffe, H

Carson, E.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Channon, H.

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Thornton-Kemsley, C N

Cliflon-Brown, Lt.-Col. G

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Touche, G. C.

Cresthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Walker-Smith, D.

Crowder, Capt. John E

Mackeson, Brig. H. R

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Davidson, Viscountess

McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

De la Bere, R.

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Digby, S. W.

Marples, A. E

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T (Richmond)

Nield, B. (Chester)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Noble, Comdr A H P

Commander Agnew and

Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W

Peto, Brig. C H M

Mr. Studholme.

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Pitman, I. J

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

I cannot say that the Government feel exactly satisfied with the progress that has been made during the day—in fact, Major Milner, I have some doubt as to how exactly you could frame this report if you had to make any comment on it—but we feel that hon. Members have had several late Sittings recently, and it would be wrong to impose another one on them tonight. However, when we resume tomorrow and we again go into Committee on Re-committal, and then have to tackle the Report stage afterwards, it must be on the clear understanding that we expect to get the remainder of the Report stage of the Bill during the Sitting commencing tomorrow.

I would like to know whether the Home Secretary has had a look at this Bill. The Government have had to resume the Committee stage of this Bill today owing to faulty draftsmanship on the part of those responsible for the Bill and lack of care and preparation, possibly owing to the Minister being overburdened with work. The fact that we are still in the Committee stage is the fault of the Government. Does any reasonable person suggest that this vast Bill can be dealt with tomorrow and to- morrow night? If the Home Secretary is really anxious to do his public duty, I suggest that he give us another day in which to go through this Bill. There has been no obstruction here tonight. [

This is a vast Bill. It affects the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of persons, and the savings of millions of persons. We cannot do our duty to the public by postponing these discussions tonight and spending the whole of tomorrow and tomorrow night rushing through this complex Bill. It would be much better for us to go on all night, tiring as the process is, and do our duty by this Bill. We should do so in no party sense. We should try to examine the Bill as if we were, to quote the late Mr. Ramsay Macdonald, a Council of State. I quite agree that a Council of State does not function best at about 4.30 in the morning, but, at the same time, every person must do his duty as he sees it, and we on this side of the Committee feel that this Bill will be inadequately examined if we devote only tomorrow to it.

Therefore, I suggest to the Home Secretary that perhaps he could give us another day; or perhaps a little conversation might be arranged which might allow us to combine the Third Reading with the remainder of the Report stage on one day. These things are worth while considering, but as it is, I feel that hon. Members opposite are not doing their duty to the country in refusing to go on with this very dull and complicated Bill.[ Interruption. ] The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport ought not to interrupt me. I am not the Secretary of State for War, and I will not be bullied by him. I am making my appeal to the Home Secretary, and I am bound to tell the right hon. Gentleman that if he is not willing to accept the suggestion I have made, we shall have to vote against the Motion moved by him.

So anxious are we to fulfil our public duty that we are quite willing to devote what is left of the night or tomorrow to this purpose.[ Interruption. ] It is no use hon. Members opposite saying, "You are only 64." Proportionately we are here in greater numbers than the Government. If the number of hon. Gentlemen I see sneaking away with their overcoats is any evidence, I think that the Govern-

ment are probably right to want to adjourn tonight. If the Government will not give us another day for this Bill, we shall have to vote against the Motion to report Progress. We do it with reluctance, but the first principle of all Conservatives is to do their duty.

The right hon. Gentleman might commend that last sentence of his to the 134 of his colleagues who were not in the last Division. If the right hon. Gentleman desires to have conversations on the future of the Bill through the usual channels during the course of tomorrow, by all means let him have them. I am not in a position to say more than that if such conversations are commenced by hon. Members on that side, they will not find the channel blocked from this side. I suggest that this would be a convenient stage at which to postpone further consideration of the Bill and to start refreshed tomorrow.

Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 141; Noes, 55.

Division No. 203.]

AYES.

[12 m.

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Evans, John (Ogmore)

McLeavy, F.

Alexander, Rt Hon. A. V

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Macpherson, T. (Romford)

Allen, Scholeneld (Crewe)

Farthing, W. J.

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Fernyhough, E.

Mikardo, lan

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.

Field, Capt. W. J.

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Bacon, Miss A.

Foot, M. M.

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Barton, C.

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Belcher, J. W.

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

Bing, G. H. C.

Glanvile, J. E. (Consett)

Oldfield, W. H.

Blackburn, A. R.

Gordon-Walker, P. C.

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Blyton, W. R.

Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

Pargiter, G. A

Bowen, R.

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Parker, J.

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

Parkin, B. T.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

Guy, W. H.

Pearson, A.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

Peart, T. F

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Popplewell, E

Callaghan, James

Haworth, J.

Pritt, D. N.

Champion, A. J.

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Randall, H E

Collindridge, F.

Herbison, Miss M.

Rankin, J.

Collins, V. J.

Hobson, C. R.

Rees-Williams, D R

Colman, Miss G. M.

Holman, P.

Robens, A.

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Corlett, Dr. J.

House, G.

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Cove, W. G.

Hoy, J.

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Crawley, A.

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Royle, C.

Daggar, G.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen N.)

Sargood, R

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Jenkins, R H.

Sliverman, S. S. (Nelson)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

Skeffington, A. M

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Keenan, W.

Skinnard, F. W

Diamond, J.

King, E. M.

Snow, J. W.

Dodds, N. N.

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E

Sorensen, R. W

Donovan, T.

Kinley, J.

Soskice, Sir Frank

Driberg, T. E. N.

Leonard, W.

Steele, T.

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Lindgren, G S

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Durbin, E. F. M.

McAllister, G.

Stubbs, A. E.

Dye, S.

McEntee, V. La T

Summerskill, Dr. Edith

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

McGhee, H. G.

Sylvester, G. O.

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Mack, J. D.

Symonds, A. L

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

Mackay, R. W. G. (Hall, N.W.)

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Taylor, Dr S. (Barnet)

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

Warbey, W. N.

Williams, J. L (Kelvingrove)

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Watkins, T. E.

Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Wells, W. T (Walsall)

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

West, D. G.

Wllmot, Rt. Hon. J

Tiffany, S.

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Yates, V. F

Titterington, M. F

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. w.

Usborne, Henry

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Mr. Simmons and Mr. Wilkins.

NOES.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M

Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

Amory, D. Hcathcoat

Grimston, R. V.

Ropner, Col. L.

Baldwin, A. E.

Haughton, S. G.

Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonde.)

Barlow, Sir J

Hogg, Hon. Q

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W

Birch, Nigel

Howard, Hon. A

Spearman, A. C. M

Bossom, A. C.

Hurd, A.

Sutcliffe, H

Bower, N

Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Keeling, E. H.

Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

Thornton-Kemsley, C N

Channon, H.

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Touche, G. C

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Walker-Smith, D

Clifton-Brown, Lt -Col. G.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

De la Bere, R.

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Digby, S. W.

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Pitman, I. J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

Mr. Studholme and

Elliot, Lieut.-Col Rt. Hon. W.

Raikes, H. V.

Brigadier Mackeson.

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Committee report Progress; to sit again this day.

Retail Licence Application, Reading

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. R. J. Taylor. ]

12.7 a.m.

At an hour which is, by contemporary standards, almost embarrassingly early for the Motion for the Adjournment, I desire to raise a question which I think amounts to a grave administrative breakdown on the part of the Ministry of Food. I should say in opening that, in view of the fact that I propose to refer to the affairs of the Food Committee of the Borough of Reading, I have notified the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Mikardo), whom I am glad to see in his place, and as I propose to refer to the Minister of National Insurance, I have also notified him. In fairness to him I should say that I have received information from him that he is in Paris.

The facts should be outlined briefly. On 18th September, 1946, an old lady who carried on a small retail business in Lavender Road, Reading, died. On 17th October, 1946, a Mr. A. J. Kent applied for a retail licence in connection with those premises. That application was considered by the Reading Food Committee, and in view both of the fact that more than ten days had expired since the business had come to a standstill, in accordance with the then Regulations, and also in view of lack of consumer demand, they refused that application. I should say in parenthesis that this shop stands in a street of very low quality which I understand is shortly to be removed in accordance with a planning scheme, and that within 50 yards there are four other shops.

It would appear on the face of it that the decision of the Committee was not only not unreasonable but probably inevitable. On 23rd January, 1947, a Mr. O. Grey applied for a retail licence in respect of the same premises. On 6th February, after inspection by the Food Committee, his application was also rejected. He exercised his right of appeal to the Divisional Food Officer. His appeal was heard and, as I understand it, argument took place on 12th May, but the Divisional Food Officer upheld the decision of the Reading Food Committee and his appeal was dismissed. On 13th August, 1947, the Reading Food Committee were notified, through the usual departmental channels, that the Ministry of Food had decided to grant a retail licence to Mr. Grey.

On 22nd August, 1947, the Committee protested on the grounds that there was no need for this licence in that particular area, and also drew the Minister's attention to the fact that the first application had been by Mr. Kent. But on 26th August they were notified that the Ministry had over-ruled their protests and the licence was to be granted. The Food Committee, who, I understand, felt and feel very strongly about this matter, made a number of further protests and requested the Minister to receive a deputation. The right hon. Gentleman indicated his unwillingness to see a deputation, but as a result of constant protests, on 2nd January this year; a Mr. Ryan, who is, I understand, an under-secretary in the Ministry of Food, was sent down to interview the Food Committee.

The Food Committee were informed that this licence was granted on the instructions of the Ministry—I have given notice of this point to the Parliamentary Secretary—and those instructions were issued consequent upon an intervention with the Minister made by the Minister of National Insurance and that the wife of the applicant was a not very close but some connection of that Minister. The matter was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) in a Question on 31st May, and the hon. Lady gave her account of this matter. She said:

The argument of the hon. Lady is that this case drew their attention to the fact that the regulation was inappropriate, being that which provides that if a business had been closed for ten days one could not appeal to renew it. They decided, therefore, to substitute a period of three months. Not only was that applied retrospectively to the extent of nine months, but in fact Mr. Grey's case does not come within the new regulation, since his application was not made until over three and a half months after the closure of the business. If the hon. Lady puts the case on the basis of the need for a new regulation, it is the fact that Grey was not covered and would not have been covered by the terms of this regulation, and therefore it was applied retrospectively. It is perhaps material to ask the hon. Lady whether there are any other cases within the knowledge of her Department in which this rule was applied retrospectively and if so, whether they were applied for nine months back.

The points on which I desire an answer in this matter are twofold. In the first place, the procedure which her Department followed of over-ruling the Food Committee without even consulting them, without seeking their point of view, involved the Minister in necessarily being ignorant of the fact that Grey was not the first applicant and that Kent had previously applied. If the regulations were to be amended retrospectively, Mr. Kent, who had applied well within the three months period was entitled at least to the same consideration that was given to Grey But in fact, through the procedure which it followed of simply issuing an instruction without consulting the local food office, and by refusing to hear the protests of the committee the Ministry rendered it impossible that it should know of the existence of the previous applicant. For all the Ministry knew, there might have been half a dozen previous applications. The Ministry simply picked out the name of a person who had applied three and a half months after the appropriate time and issued an instruction that a licence should be granted to him.

I am not myself a believer in the policy of compelling licences to be obtained for these purposes. The Government thinks otherwise, and it is incumbent upon them, if they apply this system, to apply it in a way which not only is fair, but also seems to be fair. To operate it in this way, to have intervention by a Minister of the Crown not departmentally concerned—an intervention on behalf of a connection of his—cannot but give rise to grave disquiet whether the power of the Ministry to act in this way is being exercised in fairness and with impartiality.

In view of that, and in view of the great importance of the Ministry of Food being beyond suspicion in these matters, this House should have the opportunity to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the Department's side of the case. It may be that she will be able to clear up what is on the face of it a disquieting state of affairs. I hope the hon. Lady will believe me when I say that I hope she will be able to do so. Apart from any question of party, it is of overwhelming interest to the country that our high standard of probity in government should be maintained. Therefore, I thought it right to raise this matter tonight to give the hon. Lady an opportunity to put before the House the Ministry's version of the facts. If she can successfully discharge that task, and dissipate the suspicion which exists, no one will be happier than I shall.

The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) is not only a picker-up of unconsidered trifles, but he is also on occasions a scavenger in unconsidered dustbins. Some people go around seeking truth and beauty wherever they may find it. The hon. Member runs around looking for dirt wherever his eye may light upon it. I am grateful to him for his courtesy in advising me of his intention to raise this matter; but I could not, without encroaching upon the time which the hon. Lady will want for her reply, deal with the merits or demerits of this case. But that does not matter so much as might at first appear, because I am quite certain that the hon. Member in raising this matter, and those who have induced him to raise the matter—notably the Chairman of the Reading Food Committee—are themselves not very concerned about the merits or the demerits of the case. Indeed, I have evidence to show that, not with regard to the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames, but with regard to his sponsors in this matter, their only object is quite outside the merits of the case, and is to make some public fuss and to achieve some fame or notoriety.

The hon. Member makes a perfectly clear statement that I have been sponsored by persons who have decided to raise this matter, but may I tell him that I am raising this entirely on my own initiative, and that I am not sponsored by anyone?

I do not know whether the hon. Member gets his information out of the clouds. It is quite clear that he has been briefed. There is nothing improper about that, and I make no allegations about it; but he has information, and it is clear whence he got it. He has got it from the same place as I got mine—the Chairman of the Reading Food Committee, who has been much less anxious to have the case debated on its merits than to raise in a privileged place a charge of nepotism against a Minister when he had the opportunity of putting it to the Minister himself at a personal interview which he refused.

If I may be allowed to give my knowledge of this matter without interruption, as I did not interrupt the hon. Gentleman, I should like to say that the Chairman of the Food Committee first consulted me. At the interview and long before there was any opportunity of my being able to study the facts of the case, this gentleman, whose zeal is apparently unmatched by his knowledge of Parliamentary procedure, not only handed me a Question to ask in this House but a long list of eight or nine supplementary questions, including one, Mr. Speaker, much longer than you have ever permitted to be asked. Although I was at great pains to explain to this gentleman the ineffable helpfulness and courtesy shown to hon. Members by you, I ventured to doubt whether you would allow a series of eight or nine supplementaries including such a long one.

It was while we were in the course of correspondence, and without notifying that this gentleman proceeded to call in the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd)—

which he did without notifying me in advance, and he passed this question and the long list of supplementaries to him. This gentleman is a fickle lover, and having passed from me to the hon. Member for Newbury, he continued, it seems, in an ever-descending spiral to the hon. Member for Kingston - upon - Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). I myself had conveyed, in spite of interruptions of the hon. Member for Newbury, to this gentleman the suggestion that I should arrange for the Minister to receive a deputation. In rely to me, this gentleman did not even refer to this offer, and made it abundantly clear that he did not desire to have the merits or demerits cleared up in a reasonable way. The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames, as one would expect of him, has put the case very much better than this gentleman. It is quite clear that this was not what he sought, and that he wanted some public fuss made. That is abundantly clear from correspondence and conversations I had with him. If he wanted the information which the hon. Gentleman says he does want, he should have been willing to get it in the best place, face to face with the Minister as I suggested. I just wanted to say this word about the motives which have induced the House to be kept at this late hour with this cheap piece of muck raking.

12.24 a.m.

In my experience in this House this grave charge which the hon. Gentleman has brought against two Ministers of this House is unprecedented. He has brought this charge of nepotism against the Minister of Food and also against the Minister of National Insurance in their absence.

My right hon. Friend is in Africa. I am, quite unable to communicate with him as to the details. The Minister of National Insurance is in Paris. Yet, on an Adjournment Motion, the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter), in an irresponsible manner, raises this subject in order to make party capital. He brings this serious charge against two men who are unable to sit on this bench and tell him the facts as they know them.

I am here to prove that this charge is made on the flimsiest evidence, and what my hon. Friend the Member for Reading (Mr. Mikardo) has said is correct. There is no substance whatever in this charge. I arm going to read the letters because there is nothing which I wish to hide, and I ask the House to judge between the case of my right hon. Friend and the irresponsibility of the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames.

The facts are that Mrs. Poole died in September, 1946. In November of the same year, Mr. Grey came along and bought the premises, redecorated them, and obtained a licence to sell tobacco. He then applied for permission to sell groceries and confectionery. At this stage I should explain that we have a rule at the Ministry of Food which lays it down that an applicant for a licence in premises of this kind must apply within ten days of the previous licensee dying. I want the House to note that, because it is an important point; the regulation specifies ten days. Grey was refused his licence because he applied after the specified time. He appealed, but the appeal was dismissed by the Divisional Food Office. He then wrote to the Minister of Food, pointing out that he had bought the premises, had spent money on them and had redecorated them all under the impression that he would obtain a licence, and that he had a family.

The letter was sent to the Minister of National Insurance, although addressed to the Minister of Food. This was because the man was a distant relative of the Minister of National Insurance, and it" was asked that the letter should be handed to my right hon. Friend. In the covering note the Minister of National Insurance mentioned that Grey was a relation and that was why the letter was; sent to him although the man was not even a constituent. Hon. Members know how often people- write to-them claiming that they know them; people say, "I was at school with you "or, "I knew your parents," or, "I am distantly related." In my own case, some have claimed that I brought them into this world and seek help on that score. But we do not put these letters in the waste paper basket; we send them to the Departments concerned, the letters are dealt with on their merits, and a reply is sent to the hon. Member concerned stating that this or that is what we are going to do in the case. Would the House have it that the Minister of National Insurance, who received a letter addressed to the Minister of Food, should have put the letter in the waste paper basket because the man was a distant relation of his wife? Of course not. He sent it on in the normal way and it went to the Department. The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames is a lawyer, and I am sure he would make a great deal of this point. I want him to note the date that letter was written to my right hon. Friend. It was 9th June. The Department was asked to examine it.

What was the grievance? The grievance was that this ten days was too short. I think every Member who is not prejudiced, would agree that that was a reasonable grievance—ten days in which a man has to apply and make plans to take over his new premises. The Department examined it and they came to the conclusion, after considering some time, that an amendment was called for. It so happened, certainly, that Mr. Kent had made application but, unfortunately, although Mr. Kent knew his rights he had failed to appeal. What Mr. Grey had done was to appeal to the Divisional Food Office, feeling that he had spent all his money on the premises—which Mr. Kent had not done—and had spent all his savings which were now no good to him, as he had an empty shop. Mr. Kent had failed to appeal or write to headquarters, and, as far as my Department was aware, Mr. Kent did not exist.

The officials examined this regulation and looked at it objectively as is always done and said, "Is this fair? "They decided it was not. I understand that the Food Control Committee felt somewhat aggrieved because Mr. Kent was a local man and Mr. Grey was a Londoner and they felt that Mr. Kent should have had the licence.

Certainly. It happened that the amendment was made by my Department because that cannot be done by the committee. Amendments are made every day. They could not be aware that Mr. Kent was in the picture. What happened was simply that the officials notified the Food Control Committee that they had decided to amend the regulation and that Mr. Grey should have the licence.

Those were the facts. The date—and I ask the House to note this, because if there was any connivance between my right hon. Friends, would there not be evidence that they had been getting together over the weeks?—was, for the first letter, 9th June. The Minister of Food, if he had wanted to give a licence to a relative of the Minister of National Insurance, would perhaps have expedited it. There is not a sign of it. I want the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames to note this. The date of the first letter is 9th June and the letter from the Minister of Food to the Minister for National Insurance was 8th August—two months during which the Department had threshed out the whole matter. I think that if this grave charge which the hon. Member has brought against my right hon. Friends is true, we would have seen that this licence was handed over before then.

Let me now read the letters. I want the House to be quite clear because in my opinion this is one of the most disgraceful things that has happened in the period in which I have sat on these benches. On 9th June the first letter came from the Minister of National Insurance. It read as follows:

the hon. Member comes to the House and charges my right hon. Friends with a dishonourable act.

SPEAKER

Adjourned at Twenty-three Minutes to One o'Clock.