House of Commons
Monday, July 19, 1948
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]
Death of a Member
I regret to have to inform the House of the death of the right honourable Joseph Westwood, Member for Stirling and Falkirk District of Burghs, and I desire, on behalf of the House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the right honourable Member.
Private Business
BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
PEABODY DONATION FUND BILL [Lords]
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
CUMBERLAND COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords]
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Oral Answers to Questions
Roads
Bus Service, Broughton
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that the village of Broughton, Hunts, with a population of approximately 300 people, has bus services to Huntingdon on Saturdays only, and has no bus service to St. Ives, which is the appropriate local food office for the people living at Broughton; and whether he will endeavour to secure a bus service from Broughton to St. Ives.
The licensing authority inform me that the Eastern National Omnibus Company propose to restore the pre-war bus service of two journeys each way between Broughton and St. Ives on Monday, the market day. Their application for a licence will be dealt with by the licensing authority under statutory procedure.
Flooding, River Ebbw
asked the Minister of Transport in view of the fact that he is responsible for the maintenance of the trunk road A.48, what action he is taking pending the establishment of a river board, to see that this road is kept open at Ebbw Bridge, Newport, Mon-mouthshire, in time of flood.
Periodic flooding cannot be prevented until there is a drainage scheme for the River Ebbw as a whole. When the trunk road is flooded, traffic uses other roads.
Is the Minister aware that what is wanted is not a catchment board or drainage scheme but that somebody should take responsibility for digging up the silt from underneath this bridge so that the road does not get flooded? His Ministry collects £6 million a year to look after trunk roads; cannot he do something about it?
I am very anxious to assist here if it is at all possible, but I am advised that if I raised the road it would tend to dam up the water. However, I will look into the specific point which the hon. Gentleman has just raised.
Bus Services, Huntingdonshire
5.
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that the extra bus services on Saturday recently granted for operation by the Premier Travel Company from Offord to St. Neots, Hunts, have not provided the benefit expected by the people of Great Paxton, as the buses are sometimes already full up with R.A.F. personnel before reaching Great Paxton; and whether he will take steps to ensure that other arrangements are made for the R.A.F. personnel, thus preventing them from overcrowding the local buses.
The licensing authority for public service vehicles inform me that the Eastern National Omnibus Company have just applied for authority to operate a bus service from Brampton R.A.F. Station to Huntingdon to connect with a train at 1.05 p.m. for London on Fridays and Saturdays, with return journeys on Sunday night. This application will be dealt with by the licensing authority under the usual statutory procedure.
Is the Minister aware that it is the men from another R.A.F. station and not Brampton who are filling up this civilian bus service, and will he take steps to ensure that when these facilities are granted to the public the intention of the licensing authority is not defeated by Service personnel crowding the buses?
If another station is involved, that is a point into which I should have to look further.
Trunk Road, Burford (School)
7 and 8.
asked the Minister of Transport (1) whether his Department was consulted, as the highway authority for the Oxford to Cheltenham trunk road A.40, before the decision was taken by the Oxfordshire County Council, as local education authority, to construct new school buildings on the south side of that road at Burford; and whether he received any report from his local officer on the subject;
(2) whether he is satisfied that the construction of the new school on the south side of the Oxford to Cheltenham trunk road at Burford is free from objection from the point of view of road safety; and if not, whether he proposes to require any traffic control on crossing the road or otherwise in view of the fact that the majority of the pupils attending the new school will have to cross the road from their homes in the village of Burford, which is on the north side of the road.
As the highway authority for trunk roads, my consent was necessary before the school huts on the south side of trunk road A.40 at Burford could be erected. From reports I have received, I understand that only a minority of the children attending the school will need to cross the trunk road, and that arrangements will be made for them to do so in organised parties. No serious danger to the children or interference with traffic appears likely to arise.
Is the Minister aware that there is an alternative site on the north side of the road which would stop almost any children needing to cross the road at that very dangerous point? Secondly, did he consider holding a public local inquiry before the opinion of almost everybody in the locality was disregarded?
If in referring to another site the hon. Gentleman means a school site, that hardly comes within my province, and therefore until that issue is raised, I do not think the question of a public local inquiry arises.
Motor Insurers' Bureau (Payments)
asked the Minister of Transport how many applications have been made to the Motor Insurers' Bureau for ex gratia payments under the terms of Note six to the text of the agreement made between the Minister and the bureau; in how many cases has payment been refused; and what is the average amount of the payments made.
I am informed by the Motor Insurers' Bureau that the number of effective applications made to them under the terms of this Note is 202, of which 36 have been refused. Ninety-one cases are still being investigated. The average of the payments already made is £203.
Would the Minister consider asking the bureau to publish an annual report and statement of accounts so that the public can know the scope of its operations?
I will look into that point, but I would hesitate to give a commitment at the moment.
Cheap Fares (School Children)
asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the raising of the school-leaving age to 15 years of age, he will extend the limit for half-fare travel by road to that age.
This is a matter for the British Transport Commission as regards the services for which they are responsible. On other tram and trolley vehicle services, it is one for the undertakers, most of whom are local authorities operating under statutory provisions. On other public service vehicle services, it comes within the jurisdiction of the licensing authorities.
Is my right hon. Friend not in a position to give a lead on this important matter of policy? These children are earning nothing, they travel every day, and it is a great expense to their parents in many cases?
As I have already indicated, this is a matter for the authorities, and I have no jurisdiction to give them a direction.
Is this not a matter of such national interest that it is one on which the Minister could give directions to the British Transport Commission to give a lead?
This is a rather far-reaching issue—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear"]—as to how far transport authorities should carry financial obligations belonging to other bodies, and it is not a matter I could deal with in answer to a Question.
Could the Minister co-operate with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Education to see whether some scheme could not be worked out by which the transport companies and authorities could make a concession and reimburse themselves from the Ministry of Education?
I shall always be willing to enter into discussions, but at this stage I am not prepared to accept a commitment for the transport authorities.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give a lead in this matter, which is important, and consult his colleagues to see whether something can be done?
To give a lead indicates that I should accept the responsibility which, at the moment, I am not disposed to do.
Toll Roads and Bridges
asked the Minister of Transport when it is intended to bring to an end the toll roads and bridges operated under his direction.
I assume that the hon. Member refers to the toll roads and bridges owned by the British Transport Commission, and I would refer him to the answer which I gave on 16th February to my hon. Friend the Member for West Leicester (Mr. Janner).
As that answer was completely valueless from the point of view of finding out when the toll bridges are to be ended, would the right hon. Gentleman say now how long it will be before he abolishes these toll bridges and roads?
I disagree that the answer was valueless.
Is it not true that the statute book contains a Bill which gives power to the Minister to abolish these toll roads and bridges? I introduced the Bill in this House myself. It is a question of the local authorities putting pressure upon the Minister to see that these tolls are abolished.
I gave a reasoned answer to show that I circularised local authorities urging them to take steps and saying that grants would be made towards the cost.
Children's Highway Code
asked the Minister of Transport how many copies of the new booklets on road safety issued by his Department for young children have been purchased by education authorities and others; and what further steps he is taking to ensure their widest possible distribution.
Two hundred and eighty-six thousand copies of the Children's Highway Code published by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, with my right hon. Friend's approval, had been sold by the end of June, and sales are continuing at a satisfactory level. Specimen copies have been widely distributed to local authorities and others.
May I ask my hon. Friend if he does not consider it advisable to have a still greater distribution of these booklets, and will he consider whether by advertising, in the Press or otherwise, it will be possible to achieve that end?
Yes, Sir, I will certainly consider that. I am anxious to encourage their distribution as widely as possible.
Will my hon. Friend consider making them available to the public on the bookstalls of railway stations and elsewhere.
I will look into that.
Pilley Bridge, Cheltenham
asked the Minister of Transport what materials and how many man-hours labour it is estimated would be required to replace the Pilley bridge, Cheltenham, destroyed by enemy action in 1940, by a Bailey bridge; and if, in view of the inconvenience suffered already for eight years and the continuing waste of time and petrol caused by the need of vehicular traffic to take a circuitous route, he will reconsider his refusal to provide one.
Fourteen tons of steel, one standard of timber and 500 man-hours. There is a temporary footbridge and, as I have already informed the hon. Member, I should not feel justified in taking steps to facilitate the replacement of the vehicular bridge at present.
Is the Minister aware that so long as there is no bridge at this place, hundreds of gallons of petrol are wasted every week? Is not that a matter to which he ought to give his attention, and will not he reconsider it?
That has certainly been taken into consideration, but my hon. Friend knows the general situation regarding work of this description.
Railways (Lost Property)
asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement on the position with respect to property lost on the railways and remaining unclaimed.
Under Section 119 of the Transport Act, 1947, I have the power to make regulations, providing for the safe custody and re-delivery or disposal of any property found on the railway. Meanwhile, the matter is governed by the existing railway conditions of carriage.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that meanwhile the Railway Executive have altered the rule which existed under the private companies by which the finder of such property was suitably rewarded, and will the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, take action with them?
I was not aware that the prevailing conditions had been altered, and if the hon. Gentleman suggests that, it is a matter which I should have to examine.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider a specific example if I send it to him?
Yes, certainly.
Ministry of Supply
Steel Companies (Assets Transfer)
asked the Minister of Supply whether he will give an assurance that the value of assets now being transferred by steel companies to subsidiary and associated companies in anticipation of nationalisation, will be deducted from the ultimate value of compensation payable to the steel companies when nationalised.
All such questions are being taken into account but I am unable to make a statement at present.
Will my right hon. Friend make it quite clear to the steel companies concerned that he will not tolerate any further deliberate weakening by these companies of the industry's resources?
I think the steel companies are aware that the matter is under review.
Is not this largely a hypothetical question, in view of the likelihood that the saner elements of the Government will force the abandonment of this wild-cat scheme?
When the Minister is considering this question, will he also take into consideration the over-generous compensation paid to coal-owners, and the high prices of shares of coal companies on the strength of these over-generous payments, and not make this mistake with the steel industry?
Refrigerators
asked the Minister of Supply why we are exporting refrigerators at an average conversion rate of £355 per ton and the Trade and Navigation Returns show that we are importing refrigerators at £737 per ton, amounting to £130,000 worth of refrigerators for the first four months of this year; and if he will look into this, with a view to permitting British manufacturers to supply the home market and then export their surplus, so saving dollars.
Licences for the importation of complete domestic refrigerators are granted only for limited quantities under the token import scheme and for samples to use as prototypes for manufacture in this country. Imports consist mainly of certain parts not made in this country and of spares for the repair of refrigerators of foreign manufacture. They are of much greater value per ton of steel than complete refrigerators.
Can my right hon. Friend say if he is reviewing the position that has arisen in conjunction with his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the fact that some time ago it was baths, then typewriters, and now refrigerators which are being allowed to come into this country at prices far in excess of the prices we are getting for our exports, and that if this situation is allowed to continue we shall never close the import-export gap?
No, I think my hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. Only a very limited number of completed refrigerators have been allowed into this country—none during the first four months of this year. It is only spare parts for existing refrigerators which are allowed in.
Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that we are charging enough for our exported refrigerators, and can he tell the House how the present price per ton compares with the pre-war price?
Not without notice.
But is my right hon. Friend satisfied that we are charging enough?
I understand that the refrigerator makers are charging as much as the market will bear, and it is for them to fix the maximum price they can get.
Will the right hon. Gentleman read the leading article by the financial editor of "The Times" this morning?
Motor Cars (Colonies)
asked the Minister of Supply what encouragement is being given to the motor industry of Great Britain to produce a type of motor car suitable to the conditions prevailing in colonial territories.
The design of motor cars is a matter for the motor industry who are aware of the requirements of the Colonies and other overseas markets. Some inducement to manufacturers to develop larger models suitable for both home and overseas markets was given by the introduction at the beginning of this year of a single registration fee for all sizes of cars. Several new types now coming into production have been specially designed with a view to the export markets.
In view of the fact that the whole volume of production of the motor trade is for the small car in this country and that it is clearly uneconomical to produce a separate type of vehicle for the Colonies with the horse power, springing and clearance which are necessary, would not the Minister consider recommending to the Cabinet a subsidy in order to be able to compete with the American motor cars which are now flooding the Colonies?
No, Sir. The motor companies claim that the new models, which have greater ground clearance and other advantages, are suitable for the Colonies, and that it would be quite uneconomical to make a special type for the Colonies.
Machine Tools (Polish Purchase)
asked the Minister of Supply why he permitted, at a recent Ministry of Supply auction sale at Windermere, the sale of lease-lend machine tools to a representative of the Polish Government Purchasing Commission, when we have given an undertaking that such machine tools shall not be re-exported.
26, 27 and 28.
asked the Minister of Supply (1) why, at a recent auction sale held under the auspices of his Department, a number of unused hydraulic rifling machines which cost over £3,000 each and are useless except for arms production, were sold to a Pole for despatch to an East European country for £75 each;
(2) why British merchants are debarred from exporting Lend-Lease machine tools to the Dominions while the embargo on the export of such machines, specially designed for the manufacture of arms, to an East European country has been lifted;
(3) whether he is aware that merchants present at the recent auction sales of Government-surplus machine tools protested to the Director of the Ministry of Supply against the sale of such valuable war potential to an East European country; and what was the answer given to these protests.
I will, with the hon. Members' permission, answer this Question and Nos. 26, 27 and 28 together.
On a point of Order. As this is apparently an attempt by the Minister to cover a multitude of sins in one reply, may I ask you, Sir, whether, if the Minister does not by his reply cover all the questions which he says he will cover, I may have the right to have a separate answer to each of my Questions?
I cannot say whether the Minister will give a separate answer or not. It is possible that, if the hon. and gallant Member asks his Questions, he may get the same answer repeated. We had better wait and see what are the answers to his supplementary questions.
The tools were sold to the Poles, following a private agreement between the American and Polish authorities. No rifling machine was sold at this auction to the Poles. A protest was made to the auctioneer and not to a Ministry of Supply official. I understand that the auctioneer replied to the effect that the tools were sold according to the conditions of the catalogue.
Can the Minister say why the Pole was allowed artificially to inflate the price of these tools by bidding them up at the auction when there had been a private arrangement with the Ministry in advance?
The higher the price obtained for these tools, the better it is for us.
Can the Minister say whether, in fact, the lifting of the embargo, enabling the Pole to buy and to sell these war potential machine tools to a Soviet satellite country, was done at the request or suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman's Ministry or any other Department of His Majesty's Government, or whether it was done on the initiative of the American Government alone?
No, Sir. It was done on the initiative of the Polish Government, who approached the American Government and got agreement that the Poles should be allowed to buy these materials.
Will the Minister give an assurance that the Ministry of Supply will forbid the export to Soviet satellite countries of any machine tools in their possession which are suitable only for the manufacture of munitions?
That is an entirely different question. No rifling machines were sold to the Pole on this occasion.
May I have an answer to my question?
The Minister has not replied to Question No. 28—what was the form of the protest made by those attending the sale? Is he aware that there was a howl of indignation that this was the third sale in which valuable war potential material had been bought by a Pole for a foreign Government and that everybody present shouted, "Another one for Stalin"? Why does not the Minister answer that?
I thought I had covered that point. A protest was made to the auctioneer and not to the Ministry of Supply official. The sale was made in accordance with an agreement between the Polish and American authorities.
The Minister will remember that a similar point was raised regarding the jet engines. I understand that the Government have set up a committee, on which the Service Departments are represented, in order to prevent the export of war potential material to the Russians. How does that committee operate in a case such as this? What steps are taken to ensure that the Services' advice is accepted by the Government before material of this kind is exported to satellite countries?
That is a very much wider question. It did not arise on this occasion because no machine tools specialised for war production were sold to the Poles.
Does not the Minister agree that these machine tool auction sales are made a farce if everything is fixed up beforehand with one potential purchaser, leaving British manufacturers to try to bid against him when he has already got Government agreement for the transaction?
So far from being anything which had been fixed up in advance, the machine tools bought by the Pole on this occasion had been on sale by my Department in this country for from one to five years. They had not found a buyer, and we are very pleased that the Poles were able to make use of them and take them off our hands.
Can my right hon. Friend give the House any information as to who were the rival bidders who seem to have been so disappointed in this transaction?
In view of the thoroughly unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's answers, I beg to give notice that I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment as soon as possible.
Later —
On a point of Order. You will remember, Mr. Speaker, that I rose on a point of Order when the Minister of Supply was attempting to answer four Questions at the same time. You said that if by any chance he did not cover all the four Questions, you would consider the matter when it arose. I was about to rise and suggest that, in fact, the Minister had not covered Question 26 when my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll), quite rightly, was thoroughly dissatisfied and said that he would raise the matter on the Adjournment; but that does not cover the point of Order that Question No. 26 has not been answered. You said that you would wait and see.
I thought that I called the hon. and gallant Member every time he rose. I thought that he would ask supplementary questions which would cover each of his three Questions which were being answered together. The only course now is to raise that matter when the subject comes up on the Adjournment.
With great respect, Sir, I could not rise again when notice had been given that the matter would be raised on the Adjournment; otherwise I would have done so.
Possibly the rule that if a Question has not been completely answered it can be put down again might assist the hon. and gallant Member.
Refuse Collection Vehicles
asked the Minister of Supply if he will relax restrictions on the manufacture of refuse collection vehicles for the home market to enable local authorities to maintain an efficient collection service in the interests of public health since the present shortage of these vehicles may prove a serious threat to the health of the community.
Arrangements have already been made to increase the supply of these vehicles to the home market.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why the Macclesfield Borough Council have not been allowed to buy Dennis vehicles for this purpose?
They can get Dennis vehicles. There has been a special arrangement, to increase the supply of these vehicles to local authorities.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have correspondence showing that they have not been allowed to do so, which is in direct contradiction to what he has said?
I agree that they may have to wait a little while for delivery, but the supply of the vehicles has been increased.
Fencing Wire
asked the Minister of Supply if he is aware of the shortage of plain fencing wire in some areas; and what steps he intends to take to see that the supply is adequate.
There is a shortage of all forms of wire, including fencing wire. Arrangements have been made to improve supplies of wire generally, both by increasing production in this country and by imports.
Bar Iron
asked the Minister of Supply what steps he is taking to increase the supply of bar iron in the smaller sizes used by blacksmiths in country districts.
Arrangements have been made to increase supplies of small size bars to merchants through whom rural blacksmiths normally obtain their requirements.
Is there any reason why the supply of this simple commodity should have been allowed to fall below the demand?
I am afraid that the supply of both quantities and types of iron and steel is below the demand.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since I raised this matter with him about six weeks ago, when he gave me a very comforting answer, the position in Shropshire has deteriorated?
Prototype Aircraft (Production Costs)
asked the Minister of Supply whether he will meet the production costs during the period of commercial development flying of prototype aircraft so that faults may be discovered and put right prior to final delivery of aircraft into commercial service.
The financial arrangements for the development of prototype aircraft vary in each individual contract, but in general, and except for purely private ventures, the cost of development to prove the suitability and reliability of the type is met by my Department.
Does that mean that the cost of this particular stage of development—that is to say, after the aircraft has come to the flying stage but has not yet been proved as a commercial venture—will be met by the Department, because the aircraft manufacturing industry do not understand or realise the position and are very anxious to have some definition?
I think the aircraft industry are well aware of the position. They are in close and constant contact with my Department and could soon ascertain the position if they were in any doubt.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consult the Air Ministry, where the aircraft or part of it may be of use to the Royal Air Force, to get them to bear part of the development cost?
I do not think there is any difficulty in this matter. I think that there must be some misunderstanding. We bear the cost of the development except for private ventures.
Ministry of Works
Requisitioned Sports Ground
asked the Minister of Works how much longer it is his intention to requisition the club house and sports ground, the property of the Joint Electricity Authority Sports and Social Association, at present used for housing Poles working in the building trade.
I hope to be able to de-requisition this property by the end of August.
May I ask the Minister whether, when he has derequisitioned the property, it is proposed to hand it over to some other Government Department or to the local council or—which is the important point—back to its rightful owners?
De-requisitioning means that no other Government Department or local authority has any claim at all on the property.
Cement Dust (Thames-side)
asked the Minister of Works whether his recent visit to cement works in Thames-side constituencies enables him to make any new statement about any assistance which the Government may be able to give to firms which have ordered machinery designed to reduce the problem of cement dust.
No, Sir.
Building Costs
asked the Minister of Works when he proposes to issue the report on the costs of various systems of non-traditional houses in com parison with the costs of traditional houses.
I expect the report to be published by the end of next month.
Is not the Minister aware that his compulsory regulations, discriminating between traditional and non-traditional houses, have led to chaos in the building industry and heavy losses to builders of traditional houses and to brickworks?
No, Sir.
Then the Minister does not know his job.
War Damage (Late Claims)
asked the Minister of Works if he will introduce legislation to provide that persons whose buildings were damaged by enemy action and who did not give notice of that damage by the due date can have their claims re-examined.
I have been asked to reply. No, Sir. Full provision is already made for this matter in Section 31 of the War Damage Act.
In view of the fact that citizens of Britain were compelled to insure at a compulsory premium, and that it is a well known fact that damage from blast very often does not come to light until four or five years afterwards, and that thousands of British subjects are suffering under the gravest sense of injustice, will the right hon. Gentleman have these cases re-examined?
I have answered this question over and over again. The answer is that, although under this Act a definite time limit is laid down in Section 31, the War Damage Commission have permitted claims to be put in until recently. I am informed by the War Damage Commission that now, where good cause can be shown that a claim should be admitted, they do admit it.
Is not my right hon. Friend aware that the War Damage Commission take no trouble whatever to find out whether or not the damage is war damage, and say that they can find out by sitting on an office seat?
Is the discretion entirely in the hands of the War Damage Commission, or is my right hon. Friend able to give any advice in cases where there is doubt?
The discretion must be in the hands of the Commission. It is a statutory body, set up by Parliament to carry through this work. I think I may say, without fear of contradiction, that it has carried it through, on the whole, with great efficiency.
Pictures (Purchases)
36.
asked the Minister of Works if he will circulate in HANSARD a list of the artists whose pictures have been bought by his Department for hanging in embassies, official residences, and office buildings, since July, 1945; how much has been spent for this purpose, and how much of this sum has been spent on purchases from exhibitions of the Royal Academy; and if, when authorising such expenditure, he will bear in mind that there are many artists of distinction who do not exhibit at the Academy, and encourage the purchase of works by such artists also.
I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the artists whose pictures have been bought by my Department since 1st April, 1945. The cost of these pictures was £2,913 4s. 6d.; £488 4s. of this was spent on purchases from exhibitions of the Royal Academy. Purchases of the work of living artists are not restricted to pictures exhibited at the Academy and 24 paintings by contemporary artists have been bought elsewhere at a cost of £710 6s.
Following is the list :
Aldridge, Anderson, Blore, Butterworth, Condy, Dahl, Darwin, Devis, Dürer, Fitton, Grant, Green, Griffier, Herd, Hill, Hitchins, Hodgetts, Huggins, Humphries, Jenkins, Jones, Jutsum, Kneller, Knight, Landseer, Lear, Le Bas, Lowry, Morris, Nash, Nicholson, Osborne, Pezare, Phillips, Reeve, Sauter, Smith, Spender, Stadler, Tarttelin, Taylor, Tibble, Turner, Underwood, van Lint, Walker, Webb, Weight, White, Wills, Wissing, Wootton, Workman, Princess Zaid Al Hussein.
Removed Railings (Compensation)
asked the Minister of Works whether he will investigate the offer of compensation for removal of fixtures made by the regional compensation surveyor to Mr. W. R Forrest of 2 Corstorphine Hill Avenue, Edinburgh, 12, and see that proper compensation is paid.
The amount of compensation offered to Mr. Forrest for his railings has been assessed strictly in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 4 of Defence Regulation 50B and cannot be increased.
Is the Minister aware that this gentleman had more than 130 feet of railing taken away, and had to spend £26 for wire netting to replace it and that the Ministry have offered 2s. 6d. in compensation? Is that fair?
That was assessed on the value of the railings removed—
On 130 feet?
The question is the weight of the railings removed and the value at the time of removal.
Scrap.
Certainly, it was scrap.
But not railings.
At the time this was done the scrap value of the railings was 25s. per ton and on that basis compensation has been paid ever since the system started during the war.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of his predecessors promised that where it could be shown that replacement of railings was necessary, cost of replacement would be paid?
No, I am not aware of that and I have no power to bear the cost of replacement. My power is, where it is necessary for that to be done, to give sanction and payment for some temporary replacement, not of materials of the same class as the materials removed but of materials suitable for the purpose, where this is essential. But the essentiality has to be proved, and it does not arise in the ordinary case.
Is the Minister aware that the material was temporary and cost £26. Is he aware that it was wire netting used to stop up a gap? Will he look into the matter again?
No, Sir, it is not my responsibility. My responsibility is the payment of the cost of what was removed—not of the cost of whatever is put in the place of whatever was removed.
Can we understand what the Minister means? I understood him to say that he was entitled to pay for some temporary but different material in place of the iron railing—
No, Sir.
If that be the case, why should the Government not pay for the cost of this wire netting and thus do away with this very grave injustice?
That does not arise in the ordinary case, but only in certain cases in connection with public bodies and things of that sort—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—churches and places of that sort, where it is absolutely essential from the point of view of public safety that it should be done. It does not arise in the case of the removal of ordinary railings.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that where the railings were removed they were only removed when they could be dispensed with and not when public safety required them to be retained?
Then that relieves me of any responsibility for replacement.
Having some recollection of the circumstances which existed when this took place during the war, may I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that the question of whether the replacement is chargeable to public funds is not based on whether it was the property of a public body, but whether or not the replacement was necessary for the protection and safety of the public?
That is what I said.
For how many years has this been operating on exactly the same basis as now?
Since 1941.
Since the Minister has given such a very unsatisfactory answer, showing that he is not familiar with the working of this system, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment as soon as possible.
Ivy Farm, Knockholt (Staff)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is satisfied that Ivy Farm, Knockholt, particulars of which have been sent to him, is not overstaffed, and that those employed by him there are fully occupied; and whether it would be possible to release some of the staff for productive employment.
My right hon. Friend is satisfied that this establishment is not overstaffed; the second part of the Question, therefore, does not arise.
In asking a supplementary question I wish to be quite fair and to say that I have no personal knowledge, but I have lived in this village all my life and the "goings on" at Ivy Farm are a public scandal. The waste of time and manpower is a burden which ought not to be borne by the taxpayer.
Tanganyika (Tass Report)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has considered a Tass report on Tanganyika disseminated in Soviet News of 7th July; and, as this is an abuse of the privileges of the Soviet Embassy in London, whether he will make representations to that effect to the Soviet Union Ambassador and, in the event of not obtaining satisfaction, withdraw facilities for the publication of this organ.
My right hon. Friend has seen the Tass report to which my hon. Friend refers. As is too often the case with articles on our affairs which appear in Soviet publications, the Tass report contains gross inaccuracies and distortions of fact. Its publication, however deplorable, does not constitute a breach of the privileges of an Embassy.
Is it not possible for us to stop this pernicious drip in London? Could we have equal facilities for telling the Russian people the truth about life in their colonies?
We have two excellent papers, "British Ally" and "British Chronicle," but they stick to the facts.
Corfu Channel Incident (Hague Court Hearing)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present position in regard to the murder of British sailors off Corfu by the Government of Albania.
On a point of Order, Sir, is it open to the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr-Burghs (Sir T. Moore) to place on the Order Paper so insulting and provocative a Question as that which you have just called? You will remember that, in addition to the quite obvious breach of the Rules embodied in this Question, the Attorney-General told us not long ago that this question was under consideration by the most authoritative jurisdiction in the world, the Permanent Court of International Justice.
The hon. Member always rises to points of Order and seems anxious to teach me my business. I hope I know my business better than he does.
With great respect, further to that point of Order, as far as I am concerned I do not challenge or question whether you know your business. I have a deep respect for your Rulings, Sir, and I abide by them, but I want to ask you this question. This matter came up on 21st June and on that occasion I raised a point of Order on the matter. You then said you did not know, when the matter was raised in the first place, that it was sub judice. That was on 21st June. May I respectfully ask whether, if this matter is sub judice, it should be raised on this occasion?
Common courtesy demands that Mr. Speaker be given notice of any question asked him. To shoot at him questions without notice on an obviously difficult matter is very undesirable indeed. These Questions were passed by the Table and, I have no doubt, obeyed the Rules of Order. As far as I am concerned, I am not going to be caught out by last-minute suggestions that a matter is out of Order, because I have confidence in those who pass the Questions at the Table.
May I assure you quite earnestly it is not my intention to catch you out. It is only my intention to try to get this matter straightened out in a way which is common to other Questions of this kind. May I draw attention, with great respect, to an expression used here which has never been used by the Foreign Secretary, that the Government of Albania were responsible for the murder? All His Majesty's Government have asked is that an inquiry should be held and as the hon. Member for Fins-bury (Mr. Platts-Mills) pointed out, that inquiry is now sub judice at the International Court. May I ask, therefore, if it is in Order for a blackguardly Question like this to be put on the Order Paper?
I think the hon. Member himself has gone outside the bounds of Order. This Question is perfectly within the bounds of Order and, of course, any hon. Member is entitled to ask what is the present position. Mr. Mayhew.
The answer is as follows. We are preparing our reply to the Albanian counter memorial, which we have to submit to the International Court on 2nd August. The Court will then decide whether oral hearings are necessary and, if so, will fix a date for them.
Has the hon. Gentleman any idea as to when this premeditated and savage crime will be punished?
I cannot admit those implications, of course, while the case is sub judice, nor can I add to my statement regarding the length of the proceedings.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend gave an undertaking to see whether these proceedings at the International Court of Justice could be speeded up, because this long protracted delay is bringing the Court into disrepute?
The procedure in this case cannot be specially speeded up. That cannot be done without a reform of the whole procedure. In justice to the International Court I am advised that a complicated case like this would take almost as long before any kind of legal court.
Prisoners of War (Repatriation)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is intended to fix any definite date for the return of prisoners of war who volunteered to remain in this country for agricultural work; or whether they are to be allowed to remain indefinitely.
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn), on 7th July.
Can my hon. Friend say whether any decision has yet been taken?
No, Sir. Not yet.
Artificial Manure Production, Germany
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at what percentage of 1936 output the production of artificial manure was calculated in the level of industry plan for Germany.
Artificial manures were not separately treated in the Anglo-American level of industry plan, but the position with regard to the three main chemical fertilisers is as follows. No restriction has been applied to production of potash. Phosphates form part of the group of basic chemicals restricted to 105 per cent, of 1936. But within this group no limit has been placed on the production of phosphates which is being increased in every possible way. Production of synthetic ammonia has been provided for at the rate of 124 per cent, of 1936 output.
Is my hon. Friend aware that of the remaining nitrogen plants after the war, which were capable of producing 700,000 tons a year, 70 per cent, are down for dismantling, which is equivalent to the provision of 300 million bushels of wheat which we with America are now busy importing into Germany to feed the people? Is it not about time that this insanity was stopped?
I should require notice of that point, but in connection with the production of foodstuffs we are producing as much as we can.
Could my hon. Friend call the attention of the Secretary of State to Mr. Herbert Hoover's pamphlet on this subject, which is very illuminating?
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Duties)
asked the Prime Minister what are the precise duties he has entrusted to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in addition to those associated with the office.
I have nothing to add to previous replies to Questions on this subject.
As I have not the privilege of having the previous reply by me, could the right hon. Gentleman say just what are those precise duties and possibly add whether they are adequately remunerated?
In the appointment of a Minister either without portfolio or with small departmental duties it is not the custom to detail, except in certain cases, the particular duties assigned to that Minister.
On what subjects are Members entitled to address Questions to the Chancellor of the Duchy in this House?
On anything about the Duchy of Lancaster.
Agriculture
Smallholdings, Bedfordshire
asked the Minister of Agriculture the number and area of smallholdings which have been established in the County of Bedfordshire during the last 30 years; how much expenditure has been incurred in acquiring the necessary land, if possible giving particulars as to the area and the price of the land in each case; how many approved applicants for smallholdings are still awaiting satisfaction; what it has cost to equip the smallholdings, apart from the cost of the land itself; and what burden, falls upon the county ratepayers in the running of these smallholdings.
Since 1918 the Bedfordshire County Council have established and still retain 881 smallholdings comprising 7,343 acres. 4,895 acres were purchased and equipped at a capital cost of £417,878. The remaining land was purchased by annuities or is held on lease. The Council have 103 applicants on their books but none of these has so far been interviewed. There is an estimated deficiency of £5,290 on the county's smallholdings account for the current financial year. This is equivalent to the product of a ¾d. rate and takes account of holdings established before 1918 as well as since that date.
Will my right hon. Friend call the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Town and Country Planning to the figures which he has just given when they are considering the existing use value of land under the new Acts?
I can assure my hon. Friend that there is no likelihood of a repetition of what transpired before 1918.
Can my right hon. Friend say whether my hon. Friend's Question indicates that some of his constituents want to come and live in my parish or that some of them are obliged to leave their smallholdings in Ipswich owing to the depredations of jackdaws?
County Advisory Officer, Ely
asked the Minister of Agriculture if it was on his authority that the Isle of Ely county advisory officer recently discussed the Eire Trade Agreement with Mr. Dillon in Dublin; and if he approved the publication of the views of that officer.
No, Sir. The officer in question committed an impropriety, for which I am reprimanding him.
While not in any way doubting the sincerity of this officer in serving the best interests of British agriculture, might I ask the right hon. Gentleman to bear in mind that the Fen farmers do not desire Irish store cattle? They would sooner have Lincoln Reds or Aberdeen Angus, which will stand up to the cold East winds?
That may be so, but we must bear in mind that we legislate for the whole country and not just the Fens area.
Wild Deer, Bedford
asked the Minister of Agriculture in what circum stances his local inspector of animal diseases was recently called in Bedford to deal with a wild deer at large in the town on Saturday, 10th July.
The hon. Member no doubt refers to Press reports about a deer which broke into a private house in Bedford, got out again with difficulty, was chased through adjoining gardens and was last seen swimming strongly across the Ouse. No officer of my Department was concerned in this incident. I understand that the "inspector" mentioned in some Press accounts was an officer of the Bedford Borough Council, called to the scene by a report that a dog was suffering from rabies.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that this incident caused some consternation in Bedford? Several plate glass windows were broken, and the wild deer was locked up in a garage for some time before finally ending the night in a police cell. Will he try to protect his officers from telephone calls about wild dogs when it is, as in this case, merely a deer which got out of a nearby park and has now been captured and returned there?
Has my right hon. Friend any information as to the number of deer there are in Bedford?
It would appear that my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeffington-Lodge) needs protection from the Press.
Is the Minister aware that if and when this animal in its passage down the Great Ouse reaches the town of Huntingdon, which was the home of William Cowper, the poet, it will be treated as a stricken deer should be treated?
Elm Tree Disease, Bedfordshire
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of the increase in elm tree disease in Bedfordshire; and whether, as this is likely to affect timber supplies as well as local amenities, he will investigate the theory that it is carried from infected to sound trees by rooks during the nesting season.
Yes, Sir. I am aware of the spread of the disease in Bedfordshire but I am advised that the theory that the disease is carried by rooks can be discounted. I am sending the hon. Member a leaflet on the subject published by the Forestry Commission.
Acreage Payments
asked the Minister of Agriculture what is the average delay in making lime deficiency and potato and wheat acreage payments due to farmers.
The average time taken to pay lime subsidy claims during the past two years has been 15½ working days. For acreage payments the average time between receipt of claims by county agricultural executive committees and the despatch of payments to the farmers was 11 weeks last year.
Greenhouses (Timber Allocation)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in connection with the supply of greenhouses to horticulturists and the general public, he will increase the facilities for the manufacture and supply of the wooden varieties since the metal manufactured varieties are liable to contract or expand with cold or heat.
Technical difficulties of the kind to which the hon. Member refers have been largely overcome. Nevertheless, I have arranged to increase the timber allocation slightly, so as to allow a small expansion in commercial glasshouses with wooden frames.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that he will keep this matter constantly under review and go on increasing the allocation, as it is very desirable, in order to get the best results, to have wooden greenhouses in almost all parts of the country?
I can assure the hon. Member that a good deal of research has taken place on this question of timber versus steel.
Silage (Grass Acreage)
asked the Minister of Agriculture what additional acreage of grass land is likely to be cut for silage and dried grass, respectively, during the current season.
There is every reason to think that compared with last year the acreage of grass cut for silage will be at least trebled this season. The acreage used for drying will be about 20,000 more than in 1947, an increase of 66 per cent.
Soft Fruit Acreage
asked the Minister of Agriculture what increased acreage of soft fruit he is planning for 1949.
No specific target for soft fruit acreage has been set for 1949, but the proposed increase under the agricultural expansion programme is from 36,000 acres in 1947 to 60,000 acres by 1951.
May I ask the Minister if he will bear in mind that already foreign plums are threatening the home market and home producers in both Cambridge and the Isle of Ely, and if he will make sure that there is a market for home produce before we have any in from abroad.
I have not heard of that particular rumour.
It is not a rumour; it is the truth.
Pigs and Poultry Feedingstuffs
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that the present basis of allocation of feedingstuffs for pigs and poultry is completely out of date and causes holdings to which allocations are given to change hands at fictitious prices; and whether he will introduce a new basis on 1st September so that feedingstuffs coupons issued are directly related to deliveries to approved slaughter houses and packing stations.
I would ask my hon. Friend to await the statement about rations for pigs and poultry which I propose to make in the Debate tomorrow.
Forestry Commission (Wages Scale)
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware of the anomaly in the payment scale current in the Forestry Commission whereby a foreman in charge can receive less than the men under him; and what steps he proposes to take to remedy this.
An increase in the rates of pay is at present being negotiated with the men's union.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this promise was made several months ago, and could he give some assurance that there will be a statement made before the House rises as to the result of those negotiations?
I could not give such an assurance, since the matter is still being negotiated. I cannot assume that they will reach a conclusion between now and 30th of this month.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the administration of the Forestry Commission is not beyond reproach, and in view of the fact that the chairman is out of the country for some months, will the right hon. Gentleman take courage and look further into it himself.
The hon. Member is himself a member of an advisory committee of the Forestry Commission and perhaps he will make his own inquiries.
Rural Housing
asked the Minister of Agriculture when he will be able to give his estimate of the number of new houses required for agricultural workers in England and Wales in the light of the recent recommendations of the county agricultural executive committees.
The information provided by county agricultural executive committees is based on factors of such uncertainty that I do not think publication of an estimate would serve any useful purpose.
Can the Minister assure us, and also the county committees, that some use is being made of the survey which they undertook at his request, and that the Minister of Health, when allocating priorities for rural houses, will make use of those figures?
Certainly, Sir. The maximum use is made of the matter made available to us as a result of that survey.
Whales (Humane Killing)
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of the cruelty inflicted on whales by the processes at present employed in killing them; and whether he will investigate improving current methods of despatch so as to satisfy public opinion.
Yes, Sir. Research into more humane methods of whale killing has been pursued by interested parties for several years. An apparatus has been developed for killing whales by electricity, which will be tried out by a British whaling company during the forthcoming season.
In this connection has my right hon. Friend been in touch with the Universities Federation for Animal Welfare? If not, I would recommend him to approach them, as they do know a great deal about the matter.
I should not be surprised.
Could I ask my right hon. Friend if he has any information to give to the House as to the number of whales seen in the Ouse off Bedford?
Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether in the eyes of his Department whales rank as vermin?
Since research has been carried out into the humane killing of whales, will my right hon. Friend ask his colleagues in the Cabinet to extend this research to the killing of human beings?
Might I ask the Minister to remind my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) that if one whale entered the River Ouse, it would overflow and submerge the whole town of Bedford?
Consul-General, Texas (Speech)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to a speech made at the Kiwanis Club on 18th May, 1948, by Mr. E. A. Cleugh, His Majesty's Consul-General for Texas and New Mexico and reported in the local Press to the effect that the economic policy of the Labour Party was superior to that of the Conservative Party and their election victory was due to that; and if he will require this gentleman to desist in future from indulging in English party politics.
My right hon. Friend has received a report from His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington which makes it clear that Mr. Cleugh was misquoted by the local Press, and did not express any personal political opinions.
Has the Under-Secretary taken steps to see that the full and very clear report in the local Press has been effectively contradicted?
No, Sir, I have not taken such steps. I do not think that is necessary.
Will the Minister consider calling for a report from Mr. Cleugh himself saying what he did, in fact, say?
No, Sir.
Organisation for European Co-Operation (Convention)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what countries have ratified the Convention of the Organisation for European Co-operation; and how many ratifications are still required to bring the organisation into legal existence.
According to information so far received nine signatories have ratified the Convention. They are the United Kingdom, France, Turkey, Luxembourg, Norway, Eire, Sweden, Iceland and the Bizone. The deposit of six instruments of ratification with the French Government is necessary before the Convention legally comes into force. Three signatories have so far deposited their instruments.
Do the Government expect that the further ratifications necessary will shortly be secured? Are the Government doing anything to encourage those ratifications to be made?
We expect them to be made within the next few days.
British Naval Vessels (Transfer to China)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give an assurance that the provisions contained in the exchange of notes, Command Paper No. 7457, constituting the Agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of the Republic of China for the transfer of certain British naval vessels to China and a mutual waiver of claims contains the complete provisions of that Agreement.
Yes, Sir.
Can the Minister say what they are?
No, Sir, I cannot give the details.
Transjordan (Maintenance Grant)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the next instalment is due to be paid to the Government of Trans Jordan in accordance with the Anglo-Trans Jordan Treaty; what is the amount of this instalment; and whether, in view of the present situation in Palestine, it is proposed to make it.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any decision has yet been reached in reference to further payments to the Transjordan Government beyond the amount of £840,000 paid up to the end of May in respect of the current financial year.
The second instalment of £500,000 of the maintenance grant would normally have been paid on 12th July. Since at that date the situation in Palestine was obscure and was under discussion at the Security Council, the payment was not made. However, a decision will be taken shortly.
While congratulating my hon. Friend on this belated recognition of our obligation to the United Nations, can he give an assurance that the suspension of payment will continue until a final decision is taken by the Security Council in regard to the Palestine situation?
No, Sir; I will not give any hypothetical assurances.
United Nations Charter (Article 106)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the fact that the security arrangements envisaged in Article 43 of the United Nations Charter have not yet come into force, he will now propose the holding of consultations between the five Great Powers, with a view to joint action on behalf of the United Nations organisation for the purpose of maintaining international peace and security, in accordance with Article 106 of the Charter.
No, Sir.
In view of the fact that the international situation is rather grim at the present moment, would it not be appropriate for this country to demonstrate its desire for peace and co-operation by invoking that apparently forgotten Article of the Charter?
We do not need to demonstrate our desire for peace. We have not forgotten Article 106, but if we cannot get co-operation under Article 43, we see no good purpose in invoking this other Article.
Is not my hon. Friend aware that Article 106 does provide exactly for the situation which arises if Article 43 is not applied?
But both Articles depend on the invoking of Article 42, which has not yet been done.
Berlin (Soviet Note)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, while considering the wider aspects of the Soviet Note on Berlin, he will take up the suggestion contained in that Note that the Soviet Government is prepared to provide supplies for the whole of Berlin.
The whole Soviet Note is now being considered, and I should not like to deal in isolation with any particular point.
In view of the fact that the Minister and the Press and others have been saying so much with regard to the question of food for the Germans in Berlin, and in view of the fact that so much interest is being met in this direction, now that the Soviet Government has made this offer, why not take it up?
For one reason, because there is no evidence that the offer is unconditional.
As a little start, could not the Soviet Government offer to allow the Czechoslovakian Government, who want to send food, the chance to enable it to be delivered?
As a start perhaps the milk might be delivered from Soviet sources which have been stopped, irrespective of the blockade of our communications.
Arising out of the reply of the Under-Secretary to my supplementary question, has he inquired of the Soviet Government whether this particular offer is unconditional? Has he? He made the statement; he should answer.
Can the Under-Secretary confirm that, apart from supplies from Czechoslovakia having been stopped on Saturday, food supplies from Poland were stopped as well, which gives the lie to the suggestion contained in this question? Can the Minister confirm that?
Food Supplies
Special Rations
asked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that the special agricultural workers' ration, which is granted for harvesting, etc., is not granted to men who are carting manure; and whether he will grant the special ration for this purpose.
Seasonal allowances are to enable farmers to provide food for their employees while engaged on particular seasonal operations which must be completed as quickly as possible and I cannot agree that carting manure falls into this category.
Is not the Minister aware that the carting of manure is a very much more strenuous occupation than many of the manual pursuits which the hon. Lady has in mind, and will she therefore bear in mind the need for this extra ration when that work is being done, especially in winter.
I recognise that the carting of manure is a strenuous operation, but the determining factor in giving this extra allowance is whether the operation has to be done in the minimum time. That does not apply, I think, to the carting of manure.
Bread Rationing
asked the Minister of Food whether he will now permit the serving of bread at any rate to residents in hotels and boarding houses without counting it an additional course.
No, Sir, not until bread rationing can be ended, which will be as soon as possible.
Does the Minister realise that I am not asking that bread should be served at chance meals in hotel restaurants? I am asking that bread should be served to those who are forced to live in hotels.
I recognise that, but my right hon. Friend has made it clear that it is his intention to allow these two announcements to synchronise.
Is it not a fact that bread rationing is a farce, and is it not about time that the Minister made a statement on it?
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.
British Restaurants
asked the Minister of Food what was the number of British Restaurants at the last available date and at a similar date in 1947, 1946 and 1945.
With permission, I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Can the Minister give an indication whether they have gone down or up, and if they have gone down, can she say by how much?
On 3rd January, 1948, the latest available date, the figure was 773, and on 1st February, 1947, the figure was 1,176.
In view of that serious decline, which appears to be in contradiction of the Act which we discussed a few months ago, what steps have been taken to ensure further provision of British restaurants?
My hon. Friend must know that my Department cannot bring pressure to bear on local authorities. The Act is permissive. It is for the local authorities to decide whether or not they want restaurants.
Following are the figures:
At 3rd January, 1948 (the latest available date) 773 At 1st February, 1947 1,176 At 5th January, 1946 1,373 At 3rd February, 1945 1,843
Questions
Kidnapped British Subjects, Palestine
( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information about the British subjects kidnapped in Palestine.
According to information received by His Majesty's Consulate-General in Jerusalem from the local Jewish authorities, the five men have now been handed over to Haganah and taken to Tel Aviv. I am sure the House will be glad to learn that the men are now in safer hands. It appears from the Press, however, that Haganah has given an assurance to the Irgun, who originally seized the men, that they will be put on trial. It has been made clear to the London agent of the Jewish authorities that His Majesty's Government cannot recognise the right of any Palestinian Jewish court, civil or military, to try British subjects.
There is in fact only one course which the Jewish authorities in Palestine can properly take. This is to surrender the five men to the United Nations Truce Commission. As the House will remember they were kidnapped during the first phase of the truce from a building which was under the protection of the Truce Commission, who have since demanded their return. Sir Alexander Cadogan has been instructed to support this demand in the Security Council.
Is there any information or any means of guessing, what course of action is open to the Security Council? What can be expected to arise from Sir Alexander Cadogan's negotiations with them?
One result would be the endorsement of the Truce Commission's request.
When my hon. Friend says that these five men have been handed over to Haganah, has he any information whether the Haganah have handed them over to the Jewish administration?
I have no further information on that point.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether it would be within the competence of the Security Council to demand the release of these five men?
I should need notice of that Question. My impression is that the answer is "Yes."
Notices of Motion
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I asked your permission to put down a Motion on the Order Paper to commemorate the centenary of Dr. W. G. Grace, and you did not allow it. I bow to your Ruling, Sir, but I could not let the centenary of the greatest cricketer of all time pass without his name being mentioned in this House.
The hon. Member certainly wrote to me and asked leave to put a Motion on the Order Paper to that effect, but I declined to give my leave. It seems to me that if we put Motions of that kind on the Order Paper, we could start with W. G. Grace, we might go on to Bradman, and I do not know where we would end. Only Motions which have to do with Parliamentary affairs are put on the Order Paper. However much we may admire the cricketing record of Dr. W. G. Grace, I do not think that it would be in Order to put a Motion to that effect on the Order Paper.
At least, he knew how to play the game.
Lest it be thought that the commemoration of the centenary of W. G. Grace is a party matter, I rise to say that, had you, Sir, allowed such a Motion, I should have been most pleased to second it.
Services Land Requirements (Stanford and Purbeck)
The Government have given earnest consideration to the question of retaining the battle training area at Stanford and the tank driving and gunnery school at Purbeck, in the light of the public local inquiries which have been held. In the White Paper on the Needs of the Armed Forces for Land for Training and Other Purposes (Cmd. 7276), the Government admitted without reservation that pledges were given or understood to be given that the persons displaced should be allowed to return to their homes at the end of the war.
The matter, nevertheless, is one of great difficulty. As regards the Stanford area, battle training of the kind which is proposed is, for reasons given in the White Paper, essential to proper training. The lack of such training would, in the event of war, cost many lives, and the Government would therefore be failing in their duty to the nation were they to abandon the Stanford area without finding an alternative. There are essential requirements. A large area is required; it must, for technical reasons, give a variety of types of ground; it must not contain any sizeable centres of population; and, since Territorials have to be trained, it cannot be very far from the places where they live.
After most careful examination, the Government have come to the conclusion that, bearing these requirements in mind, there is no alternative to the Stanford area.
As regards the Purbeck area, the school is vital to the tank training of the whole army. A danger area at sea free from shipping is essential unless a vast area of agricultural land is to be sacrificed, and no such sea area is available which is not required for some other vital form of military training. Moreover, even if an alternative area suitable in these respects could be found, the amount of labour and material required to establish the school elsewhere, represented by a capital cost of the order of £4 million, is such as to make any question of transfer of the school out of the question for many years to come.
The Government have accordingly thought it right to inform the House that in their view there is no alternative to approving in substance both the Stanford and the Purbeck proposals. Some modifications in the area have, however, been made in the Stanford proposals which will meet some of the objections, and, in the case of the Purbeck area, arrangements will be made to give the public access along defined tracks to well-known beauty spots. Maps will be placed in the Library showing the proposals as approved by the Government.
In accordance with an intention of which I informed the House last Tuesday, I have had meetings with local interests, including representatives of the displaced persons, and informed them of the decisions of the Government and the reasons for them. At the same time, I stated that the Government will do everything in their power to see that those to whom promises have been given that they should return to their farms or cottages should not be worse off because the reasons of national security which I have given to the House prevent the release of these training areas. In particular, the Government will see that alternative houses are provided as soon as possible for those needing them who were displaced from houses in the battle area to which they cannot now return. In this, the Government hope and believe that they will have the wholehearted co-operation of the local authorities concerned.
I think it right to inform the House that the representatives whom I met at Stanford did not at this stage accept the view that the Government were compelled by circumstances to disregard the pledge given. On the other hand, at Purbeck, the local interests were willing to cooperate in the establishment of a committee, under the chairmanship of my Regional Controller, and including representatives of displaced persons, to work out arrangements for resettlement.
With regard to Purbeck, is the Minister aware that the consideration of this decision announced today has been protracted for three years and that great hardship and suffering have been caused to my constituents, and is he further aware that he has produced this decision, perhaps by design, at this particular moment of international tension so that public opinion is likely to support the view which is acceptable to the generals in the War Office? Finally, is he aware that it is a complete falsification of the facts to say that the cost of transferring these military training establishments amounts to £4 million? No one has expressed a desire to move either Bovington or Lulworth permanent establishments.
Let me assure the House that the timing of this answer was not made with any ulterior motive, but that it has been made at the earliest possible moment. The House will remember that an inquiry was held three months ago, and there has been a good deal of investigation necessary on the results of those inquiries. As to the £4 million, I am assured that the inevitable result of not using the Purbeck area for the training of instructors, would be that the school would have to be moved.
While regretting the necessity for retaining the battle training area, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he or the War Office would be willing to enter into negotiation with the landowners concerned and other interests with a view to adjusting the boundaries, as it has been found by experience in the past that areas have been reserved for safety zones that might have been cultivated all the time. May I, therefore, ask that the utmost amount of land should be cultivated in that area, so long as there is a need for food?
I quite agree with my hon. Friend that everything should be done to ensure that the maximum amount of land is used for cultivation, and, certainly, we shall be prepared to discuss the possibility of using any such land in the safety areas, although I can assure the House that the maximum amount of land has been conceded for this purpose already.
May I put a question regarding the Stanford area? Is the Minister aware that the announcement he has made will be received with the greatest concern both in East Anglia and elsewhere, and may I ask him whether it is not a fact that the military considerations to which he drew attention do not afford any ground for the permanent acquisition of this land, and, in view of these facts, can he not arrange for a Debate in this House on the matter?
I am not certain about the consternation. I think the people of East Anglia and of Purbeck must realise the necessity for what the Government are doing. As to the question of a Debate, that is not for me.
Further to the point about Stanford, may I ask the Minister if he is aware that, unquestionably, the people in Norfolk will accept this decision, with very deep regret, but probably very loyally indeed. May I ask him if, on particular points of adjustment that might still be raised with him by the local authorities affected, he will be prepared to enter into negotiations with a view to their settlement?
I have been accused of considerable delay in this matter, and the need for acquiring the land is urgent, but, if there are marginal points, certainly we never close the door.
On the main issue, while the House as a whole must accept, at a time like this, that the Government must have all the facilities it needs for training, may I ask the Minister if, at the same time, he can assure the House definitely, not only that these people who were promised by a previous Government that they could return will be compensated in houses, but also compensated in land, so that they can carry out their daily work?
That was the assurance which I gave to the people of the areas concerned, both at Purbeck and Stanford. We do recognise that, as far as possible, people ought not to be penalised because of the inability of the Government to carry out their pledges, and, while we cannot put them back exactly as they were, we shall do all we can to give them back their land or their dwellings—[An HON. MEMBER: "Both."]—or both, as the case may be, equivalent to what they had before.
With regard to Purbeck, may I ask the Minister, in view of the feeling about the land being taken away, whether his decision is irrevocable, not as regards the gunnery school, but regarding the extension of the range, which is what everybody is upset about at the present time?
I did not sense this feeling at Purbeck at all. As regards the question of irrevocability, the bare minimum of land needed for modern weapons is being acquired, and, so long as these weapons are necessary, I can see no hope of reducing the amount of land.
Will my right hon. Friend take steps to see that the boundaries of these training areas are portrayed on maps which are available to the public, in order to prevent walkers from straying inadvertently into dangerous areas, as happened to the junior Member for Blackburn recently, and thus minimise the danger of a by-election in Blackburn, and other casualties?
I should hate to have a by-election in Blackburn, and I will certainly consider the possibility of doing something of that sort. The map is being shown in the Library.
Will the Minister say whether at Purbeck it is possible for him to take any steps to preserve four monuments or buildings which have great beauty or historic interest? They are the Iron Age encampment called Flowers; Barrow; the 13th century church; Tyne-ham House, one of the most beautiful Elizabethan houses in Dorset; and a row of cottages in Tyneham village?
Unfortunately, I should be deceiving the House if I said that I could give any such guarantee. Firing will take place; that is the purpose of the acquisition, and, when firing takes place, it is possible that some of these dwellings may be hit, but, subject to that, the War Office will do everything possible to safeguard these buildings.
Is my right hon. Friend really satisfied that such places of historical beauty as the old Norman church at Tyneham, could, in fact, not be excluded from the safety area, as they are on the edge of it, and will he, even at this late stage, have another look at the actual boundaries?
I am satisfied that they cannot be excluded. I have seen the area myself, and I am satisfied that this area is the bare minimum.
With regard to Stanford, can the Minister give an assurance that, in the adjustments which are due to take place, no further agricultural land will be requisitioned; and, secondly, in order to get new houses for those dispossessed, can he give an assurance that the Ministry of Health will allow the local authorities concerned to go above their existing ceilings?
I cannot give any assurance that no further land will be requisitioned, but I can give an assurance that it will not be taken without the fullest public inquiry and without informing the House. On the second point, the new houses will be above the permitted number for the local authority concerned.
Can my right hon. Friend tell me whether any steps will be taken to preserve the interesting flora and fauna in these areas?
We shall do everything possible.
Could none of these treasures in the areas be protected to any extent by sandbagging?
I will consider that and have a word with the War Office.
Owing to the continuing hardship likely to be caused to my constituents, and to the alarm which will be felt by them, and because of many issues which cannot be raised now at Question time, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, on the Motion for the Summer Adjournment.
Orders of the Day
British Nationality Bill [Lords]
As amended, considered.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Prevention of discrimination.)
Any franchise, privilege, employment, immunity, place, office, service, preferment or dignity in the United Kingdom, or the Colonies which is, or shall hereafter be open to citizens of the United Kingdom and the Colonies, shall, together with the corresponding rights and liabilities, be open equally and on the same terms as to any qualification other than nationality to all British subjects, and any Act, order or regulation purporting to restrict such franchise, etc., to citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies shall be read as if the restriction referrred to British subjects.—[ Sir D Maxwell Fyfe. ]
Brought up, and read the First time.
3.50 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
The Bill in its present form makes the gateway to British subjecthood the citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies in regard to the people of this country. I have already placed before the House the argument that it is wrong to invent a machinery of potential discrimination if we do not intend to discriminate. That argument has been rejected, but rejected on the basis that there is no intention on the part of His Majesty's present advisers to discriminate, or to attach any privileges to the citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies. In my view and that of my right hon. and hon. Friends, this House ought to make that point clear.
Therefore, we have put down this new Clause which says, first, that any privilege which is open to citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies shall be open, on the same terms, to British subjects, that is, to all of those who are within the genus of which citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies form a species. We shall thus ensure that those who pass through another gateway to British subjecthood are not barred from any privileges. At first sight, the second part of the Clause might appear to be an attempt to bind future Parliaments, but I hope that the Attorney-General will acquit me of that intention. I realise that we cannot do that, but I want to do two things.
I want, first of all, to ensure that there is no discrimination against British subjects coming through another gateway by a doubtful provision; and, secondly, I want to compel any Parliament which wishes to discriminate to do so in the clearest terms, facing straightly the course which they are pursuing. I see that the hon. Member for North-West Hull (Mr. R. Mackay) is present, and I do not think that he, pursuing the line of thought which he put before us in, if I am allowed to say so, a most interesting way, on the Committee stage, would object to the idea that is behind this new Clause, that of keeping a special generosity on the part of the metropolitan area of the Commonwealth.
There can be competition in various ways, but, to a competition of generosity, I do not think many people would object. One must recognise the size of our population and our special commitments in regard to foreign affairs, and, therefore, the special reasons for persons from all parts of the Commonwealth coming to this country, and it is essential that we should make patent and public our view that their rights will be maintained. That being so, I suggest that this Clause should be added to the Bill in order to make clear our intention.
May I just say to the right hon. Gentlemen who are dealing with this Measure one word about the mechanics of our present situation? They will appreciate that this Clause becomes necessary by reason of the provision which the House has accepted from them, that there is this special citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies. Therefore it becomes right, as a matter of procedure, that it should be put down at this stage. There are some limitations in the movement of the Bill back to another place, and, if the Clause is rejected, there will not be an opportunity on procedure to put it down in another place as a new Clause. There will, of course, as the Attorney-General will appreciate, be an opportunity of putting it down as a proviso to Clause 1, because that Clause will have been amended in this House. Therefore, it will go back there, and, as the Clause will be amended, it will be possible to put down a proviso.
I feel that if the matter is to be put down, it is better to do so in the form of a new Clause. I am perfectly aware that the drafting which I have put before the House could, no doubt, be improved. I have tried to cover all possible matters in which one would want to see a Dominion citizen free and able to pursue his way in the number of matters which I have enumerated at the beginning of the Clause. I am also quite aware that the right hon. and learned Gentleman, with the assistance he has, may well find that the drafting could be improved. I, of course, do not make any point on that; I shall be glad to accept any improvement. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman were to accept the Clause in principle, and if he were to improve it, he would not find me a severe critic of his improvement. I also appreciate that, while he might have sympathy with my purpose, he might not agree with the wording of the end of the Clause. These are minor matters. As I say, the matter can be dealt with by the Government accepting this Clause in principle and then amending it when it goes to another place. Of course, even if that were not done, it could be done by the insertion of a proviso, as I have suggested.
On the broad point, I want to say that, when we are taking this course for the purpose of this Clause, I loyally accept the decision of the House against what I argued previously. When we are taking the course of making a special citizenship, I hope we shall make it clear, not only to ourselves who have studied these matters, but to the world, that we desire that there should be no discrimination against anyone from any part of the Empire. Therefore, I hope that this Clause, or a Clause which accepts this principle, will be inserted in the Bill.
There is nothing, I think, in principle between hon. Members on this side of the House and the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell-Fyfe). Indeed, we have the fullest sympathy and are in complete agreement with the object he has in mind. If once, I must have said at least a dozen times in the course of our previous discussions on this Bill, that its whole purpose is to maintain the common status, and, with it, the metropolitan tradition that this country is the homeland of the Commonwealth, and to treat all classes of British subjects alike. That principle is already firmly embodied in this Bill and, indeed, Clause 1 (1) expressly declares:
4.0 p.m.
Then, in regard to the special position of the citizens of Eire, Clause 3 expressly provides that Eire citizens shall be treated as British subjects, while in this country or in the Colonies. There is nothing in the Bill which will deprive any existing British subject or anyone who may hereafter become a British subject, through whatever door he may enter upon the status of what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has called British subjecthood, of the existing rights and privileges which attach to that status.
To that extent, I am bound to say that I am very glad that hon. Members opposite are now at one with us as to the purpose to be achieved by this Bill. I say "now," because the effect of certain of the Amendments which we have already considered would have been very much to alter that position, and would indeed have deprived many people—for instance, the British communities in Latin America or in the East—of the privilege which they now possess of transmitting British nationality to their descendants.
The proposed Clause which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has invited the House to accept would not add anything at all to the provisions of this Bill. In fact, it would be somewhat illusory at the best. Since, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman has pointed out, we cannot bind future Parliaments, it would be no more than a pious expression of hope that future Parliaments would not modify what is unquestionably the existing effect of the Bill. It would give no safeguard against discrimination. If future Parliaments were minded to discriminate—and we certainly hope they would not be—they could discriminate in future and they could discriminate now under the existing law. For instance, they could say in such a Bill as the one we were dealing with only a few days ago, the Representation of the People Bill, that the franchise or the right to sit in Parliament should be restricted to those who were resident in the United Kingdom or in the Colonies. Equally, under our existing practice and law, a Colonial legislature would be entitled, within its competence, to do exactly the same thing and to say that only a British subject who was qualified by residence in the Colonies could vote or could sit in the legislature there or could exercise other rights.
That is something which our Parliament or the Colonial legislatures can do under the existing law. Whether this Bill is passed or not, they will be able to do it in future. We hope they will not take any such course. We think that it is not likely, if any particular Parliament did feel minded to adopt discriminatory measures of that kind, that it would proceed along the lines of division between the United Kingdom and Colonial citizens on the one hand and the citizens of other parts of the Commonwealth on the other hand.
At all events, whatever the desire of future Parliaments either in this country or elsewhere, nothing that we put in this Bill now in the form of the Clause moved by the right hon. and learned Gentleman or in the form of any other Clause could in any way fetter the action which they might take. All that we can do at this stage in this Bill is to make sure that there is nothing in the Bill which could or does effect any kind of discrimination. I can give my assurance, for what it is worth—indeed, I do not think the right hon. and learned Gentleman or any other hon. Member questions it for a moment—that there is nothing in this Bill which operates in any way to discriminate between different classes of British subjects under the law of the United Kingdom.
I would just like to add this, because there is misunderstanding about it perhaps, and it is unfortunate that it should persist. There really is nothing in the point that the machinery which we are establishing under this Bill is discriminatory. It would be most unfortunate if it should go out from this House that that was the case, or if it should be thought that we were providing any convenient means for discrimination. This machinery is no more discriminatory than is the exsting law which may, which sometimes does and which always can, discriminate between different classes of British subjects on grounds such as I have indicated, or residence, domicile or by reference to other considerations of that kind.
We can do no more—and I take this opportunity of again doing it—than reiterate the view that the whole policy of this Bill is to maintain the existing rights and privileges of the status of a British subject; and whilst it is not possible in this Bill to fetter the freedom of future Parliaments, we do express the hope that no future Parliament will depart from the policy which is very clearly enunciated in the first Clause of the Bill. I hope the right hon. and learned Gentleman will feel satisfied with that explanation and that very clear indication of the policy of the present Government, and that in those circumstances he will not press the Clause which could not in any event curtail the action which future Governments might think right to commend to the House.
Question put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 3.—(Limitation of criminal liability of citizens of countries mentioned in s. 1 (3) and Eire. Status of citizens of Eire and British protected persons.)
I beg to move, in page 2, line 43, to leave out "1938" and to insert "1948."
This Amendment is necessary because during the passage of the Bill through Committee the Royal Assent was given to the Merchant Shipping Act, 1948, and in future the Merchant Shipping Acts should be described as this Amendment will cause them to be described.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 4.—(Citizenship by birth.)
I beg to move, in page 3, line 18, to leave out "in," and to insert "within."
There are certain Bills that emanate from my Department, by the side of certain Clauses in which I have written "L.H." That means "Lawyers' Holiday." I have had rather a surfeit of them this Session, and this Clause is one against which those letters appear. While the Bill was before this House on an earlier occasion exception was taken to the use of the word "in." The hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss) and the hon. Member for Northwich (Mr. Foster) raised the question on the Committee stage of the suitability of this word. I gave very careful consideration to the matter. I did consider whether perhaps an even longer phrase might have been more clear, but I am advised that if we take the parallel on page 7 in Clause 12 where the word "within" appears, it would seem that that is the appropriate words to use so as to make it quite clear that a person born within the United Kingdom and Colonies would be the person who would enter the gateway of what has been called British subjecthood to United Kingdom and Colonies citizenship. I do not think it can be suggested that "within" means that a person has to be born both in the United Kingdom and in the Colonies and I hope, therefore, that this Amendment will meet the point which was quite properly raised by hon. and learned Members opposite.
I should like to thank the Home Secretary for this short Amendment which, I think, meets the point. The only matter I question is that he should regard this as a lawyers' holiday, for it is really a point of common sense which he himself could understand without difficulty. Two or three alternative remedies were suggested on the last occasion. The Home Secretary himself has found one which I think is as good as any.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 6.—(Registration of citizens of countries mentioned in s. 1 (3) or of Eire and female British protected persons married to citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies.)
I beg to move, in page 4, line 36 to leave out from "woman," to "who," in line 38.
I think it probably would be for the convenience of the House to discuss with this Amendment the next Amendment in my name, in page 4, line 40, leave out "as aforesaid," and insert
4.15 p.m.
I indicated that I found considerable difficulty in this matter and I promised that between the Committee stage and this stage I should give some thought to the matter. In my further examination of the problem I have found that it is an exceedingly difficult one. Under Clause 20 as at present drawn the Home Secretary is given power to cancel registration only if it is
I have come to the conclusion that it is quite impossible to say what is a bogus marriage and what is a genuine marriage. Further, as I think the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames pointed out, it would be very difficult to say of anyone that they were of an undesirable character and to refuse registration of citizenship in this country for that reason. I have come to the conclusion that really one cannot do it; as was pointed out on the Committee stage, it would also involve a most difficult set of circumstances for the Secretary of State if he temporarily withheld a certificate from a woman who had married a British subject. It might be suggested by some of her friends that she really was not quite nice to know if the Secretary of State found himself unable forthwith to give such a certificate.
I have, therefore, come to the conclusion that the only thing to do is to make it mandatory that the woman shall be registered as a British subject, but that she shall be required—and this is administratively easier than it was before—to take the oath of allegiance so that there shall be no doubt so far as the future is concerned that her loyalty is to this country. I hope that the two things together will remove the objections that were felt the other evening to the Bill as drafted. I can assure the House that I had previously given this matter not inconsiderable thought. I have devoted a good deal of time and attention to it since and I have come to the conclusion that the two Amendments which I have put down meet what my hon. Friend the Member for East Islington wanted, certainly on one point; they meet what my hon. Friend the Member for North Hendon wanted; and they will provide the best solution to this very difficult problem.
I am very grateful to the Home Secretary for the consideration he has given to this matter. With respect, I personally endorse the conclusions he has reached. He has accepted the Amendment which I moved on Committee stage to a degree which I did not really anticipate. I think that when we were discussing the matter in Committee we all recognised the inherent difficulty of the problem. I also have given the matter a good deal of thought since then. I do not think there was any escape from the apparent dilemma which we were considering on Committee stage; on the one hand, either to withhold British nationality, or to give executive power to withhold it from all women who married British subjects; or, on the other hand, to provide some method, as provided in the Bill as it originally stood, for dealing with the, after all, rare problem of being able to exclude from this country or to deport after their admission those women who come here simply for immoral purposes and who obtain a British passport and status of British nationality—how to deal with the problem of depriving them of the immunity which goes with British nationality. We all realise the dilemma.
I think that by putting down his Amendment in this form the Home Secretary has done two things. He has, first of all, satisfied us by preserving the effect of the law as it stands today, that a British subject who marries an alien woman may thereby confer upon her the advantages of British nationality and upon his British children the advantages of having a British mother. I also think that by adopting the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for North Hendon (Mrs. Ayrton Gould) and requiring that in future alien ladies who marry British subjects should have to take an oath of allegiance, he has done something which is consistent with the general law and which will, I hope, have the administrative effect of going at least some way to prevent the evil which the Bill in its original form was designed to prevent. Speaking of these women whose exclusion from British nationality the Clause was designed to promote, I hope that the obligation in future whereby they will not merely have to go through the ceremony of marriage but will also have to take an oath of allegiance will do something, at any rate, to reduce the extent of the scandal.
I should like to thank my right hon. Friend very much for these Amendments. It is too much to hope that no women will get into this country and claim British nationality who are undesirable, but I believe that the second of these Amendments will go a long way to help to prevent undesirable and disloyal ones coming here as British subjects. I am sure there are a great many people coming to this country who do not come for bad purposes but who, like many other people, have mixed motives, and who, if they have mixed motives, are much more likely to go wrong. I believe that my right hon. Friend will find that when the administration of the Bill is actually being carried out after these two Amendments have been made, it will be much more satisfactory than it would otherwise have been.
I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman has listened to the representations which were made by the hon. Member for East Islington (Mr. E. Fletcher) and by hon. Members on this side during the Committee stage. The number actually affected by the change is not, I believe, very great, but I think the issue of principle involved is very great; indeed, and I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman has kept an open mind on the matter, considered it, and come to what, I am perfectly certain, is the right conclusion.
Perhaps, as the Member who first raised this on Second Reading, I may add my thanks to the right hon. Gentleman?
As one who would have endeavoured to second the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for North Hendon (Mrs. Ayrton Gould), if it had been necessary to move it, in page 5, line 3, at beginning, insert, "conditional upon taking the oath of allegiance," I should like to associate myself with the thanks to the Home Secretary, particularly with regard to the change, that we are demanding now that an alien woman should take the oath of allegiance as an alien man has to. I think that the removal of that anomaly is very necessary, because were it to remain in the Bill as it was until a short while ago, it would, I think, tend to detract from the value of the oath of allegiance as sworn by an alien man. If a woman were to be excused, it would tend to suggest that, after all, perhaps, it did not really amount to so much in the case of an alien man; whereas demanding the same from both does prevent the taking of the oath of allegiance being regarded as something of no account. It is, on the contrary, very much to be noticed, and these Amendments emphasise that, and I welcome them.
As my name was on the Amendment put down by my hon. Friend the Member for East Islington (Mr. E. Fletcher) I should like to say that I think the Amendment which has just been moved by the Home Secretary is a very good one and meets the object which my hon. Friend had in view.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: In page 4, line 40, leave out "as aforesaid," and insert:
"therefor to the Secretary of State in the prescribed manner, and, if she is a British protected person or an alien, on taking an oath of allegiance in the form specified in the Schedule (Oath of Allegiance) to this Act."—[ Mr. Ede. ]
CLAUSE 7.—(Registration of alien women married to citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies and of minors.)
Amendment made: In page 5, line I, after "cause," insert:
"the minor child of any citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies."
In page 5, leave out lines 3 to 6.
In line 7, leave out from "by," to "a," in line 8.—[ Mr. Ede. ]
CLAUSE 10.—(Naturalisation of aliens and British protected persons.)
Amendments made: In page 5, line 34, leave out "Part I of."
In line 37, leave out "Part II of the said Schedule," and insert:
"the Schedule (Oath of Allegiance) to this Act."—[ Mr. Ede. ]
I beg to move, in page 5, line 42, to leave out from "in," to "be," in line 43, and to insert "a colony."
If you approve, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and if the House adds its approval, I would suggest that we have a general discussion on all the remaining Amendments standing in my name and the names of my right hon. and hon. Friends, because they raise the one point on the Schedule with regard to British protected persons.
That is quite convenient to us.
I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for your approval, too. The House can fully understand the position by turning first to the First Schedule, and looking at the position set out in paragraphs 1, 3 and 4. Let me summarise the position as I see it. I hope I shall be corrected if I fall into error. Paragraph 4 of the First Schedule, applied to "the foregoing provisions" of the Schedule, has the effect that an alien can be naturalised on a basis of eight years, one year in the country plus seven to which other conditions attach—for example, residence in a protectorate or trust territory; but British protected persons can be naturalised within the protectorate or trust territory to which he belongs on the basis of his residence there.
If the House looks at the point, it will find that the provisions as to an alien in paragraph 1 ( a ) are that he has resided b ) there is the further provision that during the seven years immediately preceding the period of 12 months he has either resided in the United Kingdom or any protectorate, Colony, or United Kingdom mandated territory or trust territory. In paragraph 3 and the provisions for British protected persons we find that the qualifications for naturalisation there are, under paragraph ( a ): b ), that he is in Crown service and has the same other qualifications, with which I have not dealt as are applied in the case of an alien.
In order to complete the conditions in regard to British protected persons one has to look at paragraph 4, and there one finds that:
4.30 p.m.
The distinction between the British protected person and the British subject is to all intents and purposes abolished. That is the position which obtains as the Bill stands at the moment. That was the position to which my right hon. Friend the Member for North Leeds (Mr. Peake) drew attention on the Committee stage, in column 1156 of HANSARD; and in column 1157 the Attorney-General said that he was obliged to my right hon. Friend for drawing attention to this point, which was one, as he said, of a little complication. Then the right hon. and learned Gentleman went on to say: and he will correct me if I am taking too limited a view of the matter, but, as I see it, the persons who are affected now would be those in the protected states in the Persian Gulf, Zanzibar, the Malay States, both federated and unfederated, and the protected States such as exist in Nigeria, in Aden and in some of our Africa mandated territories, and the Solomon Islands.
That is not quite so. There is a distinction between persons who live in a protectorate and persons who live in a protected state. This part of the Bill to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman is referring, relates only to persons who live in a protectorate. Some of the countries to which he has referred are protectorates; Nigeria, Uganda, Zanzibar for these purposes are protectorates; but a protected state is one of a different type; protected states are for example the parts of the Federation of Malaya, other than the old settlements of Penang, Malacca, the Sultanate of Brunei and Tonga.
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, as this is a matter of some difficulty. After I make these exceptions, so far as the Bill is concerned, I think that I have mentioned the territories where it would be of effect. The position is, for example—I think that Nigeria is a useful example because there we have a very big population of persons in the protectorate but we have also got the enclave of the colony, and, therefore, we have the problem which arises on this Amendment very clearly raised so that everyone can see it.
As I understood from the intervention of the Attorney-General on the last occasion, there was no deliberate intention of policy in this Bill to make it the occasion of an assimilation of those persons in protectorate or/and British nationals, and, therefore, the position now before the House is: What is the best method of dealing with the matter? Our suggestion is that we think that the British protected person should have two methods by which he can reach to naturalisation—one by coming here, or one by going to a Colony.
We find difficulty, as my right hon. Friend suggested on the last occasion—and from what I have read, the right hon. and learned Gentleman was inclined to agree with him—in appreciating the position that the protected person, simply by sitting still in the territory in which he started, so to speak, would get the right to naturalisation. Therefore, we have moved this Amendment in order to bring the matter before the House, and to hear what is the policy of His Majesty's Government upon it.
I feel that the House is obliged to the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) for raising the question, but the Amendment, in the form in which it is presented to the House, is a very dangerous one. The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies has pointed out the difference between protectorates and protected states. In actual practice fortunately the Colonial Governments make very little difference between the protectorates and the Colonies with which they are associated. As the House is well aware, British rule began in certain coastal districts in many parts of the British Empire, and the hinterlands behind the coastal settlements were taken in as protected territories but in actual practice—as I have been personally able to see by visits to the Colonies and protectorates—quite rightly, in my opinion, the Governments of the Colonies concerned have treated the protectorates as an integral part of the territory as a whole, and there is very little distinction between the citizens of the Colony and the citizens of the protectorate.
There is, unfortunately, some jealousy between the citizens of the long-established coastal territories and the people of the hinterlands on whom depends the prosperity of the original settlements. Luckily, I think that is tending to diminish, especially as no difference is made in the provision, for instance, of the Colonial Development Welfare Acts as between people of the Colonies and people of the protectorates. Surely, it is the intention of this House and of the Colonial Governments to make that integration more and more their policy and, therefore, I am tempted to emphasise the regret that I feel at any attempt to perpetuate, at this late hour, a differentiation which is no longer being felt. For instance, if I may give the House an illustration, let me quote the protectorate in Sierra Leone. It would be a pity now to introduce any differentiation, however unintentional, to make the people of the protectorate feel some inferiority in status to the inhabitants of the towns in the Colony which is the coastal district. This Amendment would tend to break them apart instead of drawing them closer together. I hope the House will accept the Under-Secretary's explanation of the difference between protected states and protectorates, and will give to the people of the protectorates an equal right of becoming citizens with the people of the Colonies proper.
We are obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman and his hon. Friends for putting down this Amendment and giving us the opportunity to clear up a matter of considerable importance. I estimate that about 40 million people are affected by this Amendment, so it will be seen that a vast number of people are involved. In Committee the right hon. Member for North Leeds (Mr. Peake) said:
The object of these Amendments is to secure the omission of the provisions which allow naturalisation of an alien or a British protected person on the ground of residence in a Protectorate or trust territory. Under the Bill, a person applying for naturalisation has to show 12 months' residence in the United Kingdom or a Colony, etc., immediately before the date of application, and within the seven years immediately preceding the above period of 12 months, four years residence in the United Kingdom, a Colony, a trust territory, or a mandated territory. The reason for this paragraph relating to persons who live in protectorates and trust territories—
To get the record clear, I should like to point out that the hon. Gentleman did refer to "a Colony." Of course, "a Colony" is not in the provisions of the Bill. That is our Amendment. At the moment, under sub-paragraph ( a ) residence must be in the United Kingdom.
I appreciate that. Of course, paragraph (4) refers inter alia to Colonies, and the Amendment to paragraph (1) is consequential on the Amendment to paragraph (4). The position is, I think, as I have stated it under the Bill as it stands, and not as it would be if amended by the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
The reasons for these paragraphs are these. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Harrow (Mr. Skinnard) said, in many of these territories today it is a matter of considerable embarrassment that some people—and generally the mass of the people—are not regarded as British subjects, and the minority of the people are regarded as British subjects. The African territories, which the right hon. and learned Gentleman quoted, afford a very good example. I think that is the perfect example. On the West Coast of Africa there are the great Colonies and Protectorates of Nigeria and the Gold Coast. They originated from little trading centres which, after a time, became Crown Colonies: as everything within the curtilage of the trading post was taken up it became a Crown Colony; then, in order to obtain protection for trade routes and the like the vast hinterland became known as a Protectorate. On the Coast in East Africa something of the same thing applied. There were trading settlements, but the main reason for the general hinterland being taken over was to put down the slave trade; that is why we first went into Uganda, for example.
The people who live in those areas do not regard their position as being any different, whether they live in a Protectorate or a Colony; the man who lives in Accra or Lagos regards himself as being in the same position as a man living up-country. To retain this distinction, or at least not to give the opportunity to a person living in the Protectorate to become a British citizen if he desires, seems to us entirely anomalous, and it certainly does not encourage people to have regard to that larger conception of the Commonwealth which we all ought to encourage.
Secondly, this particular provision was agreed to at the Imperial Conferences in 1923 and 1926. During the passage of this Bill we have heard a lot about Imperial Conferences. This provision passed through two such conferences. Furthermore, if it had not been for the war we should undoubtedly have taken an opportunity to have put this Measure on the Statute Book at a much earlier stage, with the consent of Parliament.
4.45 p.m.
The difference between protectorates and protected states is one I should mention here, because if I do not, it may give rise to some confusion elsewhere. I have mentioned particular territories which are protected states. The others mentioned by the right hon. and learned Gentleman are protectorates; and there are others which he did not mention. The Bill as if stands does not affect the inhabitants of protected states, so that the inhabitants for example of the Federation of Malaya—other than the two settlements of Penang and Malacca Tongo or the Sultanate of Brunei—are not affected by the Bill. It is our intention, with the consent of the people of those territories, and if they desire it, to make the provisions of this Bill apply to them, by Order in Council at a later stage. We can do that under the provisions of Clause 30, but it depends on whether or not they desire it. It will be realised that we are in Treaty relationship with those States, and in a matter of this kind their status cannot be altered without their consent. I have no doubt that some, and perhaps all, of them will agree to it.
We feel that the Bill carries out the purposes for which it is intended; that is to say, the larger conception which we all have at heart, on both sides of the House. We feel it is an administrative convenience, and that no longer will there be two types of people coming under one authority without their consent. Also, we believe that it will clear up quite a number of difficulties, such as where a person who wishes, perhaps, to apply for a scholarship at a university, or wishes to come over here on grant, and a hundred and one other things of that kind, and is at present debarred from taking advantage of any of those facilities merely because he happens to have been born five miles the wrong side of a line, which at present he can rectify only by going and living in a British Colony for rive years. We feel that is a completely farcical position in these days. We, therefore, ask the House to agree to the Schedule as proposed by the Government, and to reject the Amendment.
Although I can speak only for myself, I am inclined to think that I am convinced on this. But may I ask two rather technical questions, either of the Under-Secretary or of the Attorney-General, about which I was not left quite clear? The Under-Secretary spoke of doing something at a latter stage by order in council—I believe it was for Tonga and Brunei. The questions which that put in my mind are these. First, is what we are doing under this Bill, if we accept the Government's case, something which can be done in any case by prerogative, or, secondly, are we, by doing it under the Bill, removing this question of naturalisation of protected persons or persons of protectorates from the ambit of the prerogative for the future? I believe it is a normal rule that once statutes have become operative in the field of activity which had previously been the prerogative, the prerogative is thereby ousted. I am wondering if that possibility has been considered, and I am not asking this with any intention of obstructing the Bill.
I should like to add to what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn). If an Order in Council is to be used in this way, it seems to me it will be possible, for a considerable number of people to become British citizens. I am not necessarily arguing against this, but I should like to have this point cleared up, and to know whether it will ever come before the House; otherwise, it seems possible for a very large number of people to become British citizens without anything being known about it by the House of Commons. In regard to the prerogative, it would be of advantage to the House as a whole if we could be told precisely where we stand in this.
The power to naturalise persons as British subjects is a statutory and not a prerogative power, and the effect of this Bill is to enlarge somewhat in relation to the protectorates the area over which the statutory power can be exercised and the terms upon which it may be exercised. With regard to the prerogative power which has fallen into desuetude—it creates denizens and not British subjects—the whole field is now covered in practice by statute. What the Bill will do is to alter the machinery in regard to naturalisation in regard to those who live in protectorates rather than in protected states.
In reply to the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams), there is nothing in this Bill which enables His Majesty by Order in Council to create British subjects. All he is able to do by the provisions of Clause 30 is to define what areas are protectorates as distinct from protected states. If he defines an area now regarded as a protected state as a protectorate, the persons residing in that area will be entitled to apply for naturalisation in accordance with the provisions of the Schedule, but it is, of course, a discretionary matter whether they will be granted naturalisation.
What the Attorney-General is saying is that an Order in Council can widen the area for people to become British subjects. That means that a considerable number of people may be created British citizens by an Order in Council.
Persons from any area can become British subjects by proceeding under the provisions of the First Schedule. What His Majesty can do is to widen to some extent the area in which a different residence qualification is required.
Will the House know?
The House does not have power to approve the Order in Council, but the Order in Council will of course be known.
I listened with great care to what the Under-Secretary had to say, and I have arrived at the same conclusion as my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn). We realise that what he desires and what we all desire is an improvement of the prosperity and strength of all these Colonies. When the Under-Secretary told us that the alteration by doing away with this distinction will tend in that direction, then that is enough for us and we are quite content with the procedure which is laid down. In fairness to myself and to my hon. Friends, I would point out that as this matter has not been raised at an earlier stage we felt it our duty to bring it now before the House. As the Under-Secretary said a short time ago, it is one of the happy features of this House that on colonial matters we can find so great a measure of agreement. I should be very loath to depart from that, and I beg, therefore, to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
NEW SCHEDULE—(Oath of allegiance.)
I, A. B., swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty, King George the Sixth, His Heirs and Successors according to law."—[ Mr. Ede. ]
Brought up, read the First and Second time; and added to the Bill.
FIRST SCHEDULE.—(Naturalisation.)
Amendments made: In page 21, line 29, leave out "Part of this."
In page 22, leave out lines 1 to 5.—[ Mr. Ede. ]
SECOND SCHEDULE.—(British subjects without citizenship under Section Thirteen of this Act.)
5.0 p.m.
I beg to move, in page 22, line 14, to leave out from "if," to the end of line 15, and to insert: accordance with the hon. Member's interpretation, but as a result of his vigilance I have further examined the Schedule and I have come to the conclusion that the matter is not quite as clear as it might be. Accordingly, this Amendment, which, unfortunately, I could not put down in time for it to appear on the Order Paper, is recommended to the House with a view to putting the matter beyond doubt.
This is a matter which will arise while other Commonwealth countries are passing their legislation on this question, and we anticipate, therefore, that the interval during which persons will remain British subjects without citizenship will be short. If there is any delay the child can, if necessary, be registered under Clause 7 (2) as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies and in any case, if the father becomes a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies, the child will normally also do so under paragraph 3 of the Second Schedule. I am much obliged to the hon. Member for Northwich for having indicated this point to us, and I think these words will remove the doubt which he discerned in the Bill as originally drafted.
I would like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Northwich (Mr. J. Foster), in his absence, for his great skill in discovering this technical error in the Bill. I have what I might call an ancestral interest in my hon. Friend, in that I took part in trying to get the constituency which he represents so well and so efficiently into a sensible habit—not the sort of habit, however, which the Government are so fond of displaying. I would also like to congratulate the Government most sincerely on having put forward this Amendment. It does them credit, but it also shows that on these complicated matters, they have to rely almost entirely, somewhere or other, on Members of the Tory Party. May I also thank the Home Secretary for the great charm and courtesy which he displayed in paying a tribute to the genius of my hon. Friend the Member for Northwich? I hope that with these few words I may be allowed to take the credit for once of saying something good about an hon. Friend of mine, and at the same time congratulating the Government on showing some signs of being rejuvenated into a better mood.
With the leave of the House, I do not think I ought to allow those compliments to pass unanswered. I thank the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) for what he has said about myself, and would only say, further, that it was possibly due to his intervention in the constituency of the hon. Member for Northwich (Mr. J. Foster) that his hon. Friend's majority was only 15.
rose —
The hon. Member has already exhausted his right to speak, and cannot speak again without the leave of the House.
As this is a personal matter, may I have the leave of the House—
No.
The House has not granted the hon. Member leave.
Amendment agreed to.
5.5 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
I should like to thank hon. Members in all parts of the House, and particularly hon. and learned Gentlemen, for the scrutiny to which this Bill has been subjected. There have been moments when I have wondered whether we had not had two Bills before us, because the views on the Measure that was apparently under consideration were so contradictory and the language used about it was so opposite, having regard to the position in the House from which an hon. Member might be speaking.
This is a very important Bill, and I hope that nothing I have said at any time during its passage indicates that we on this side regard this as a minor Measure. It is a Bill of the utmost constitutional importance, and we believe it to be one which deals with the problems of the growth of the British Commonwealth of Nations in a way that takes account of the movements of our time, and particularly of the very rapid developments that have taken place in that Commonwealth during the years that have elapsed since the cessation of hostilities. The granting of complete nationhood to India, Pakistan and Ceylon obviously raised new and great issues which had to be considered with the utmost clarity and speed.
Before the Bill leaves the House perhaps I may be allowed to say a few words which, I hope, will clarify some of the issues of constitutional importance on which misunderstandings can easily arise, and for the removal of which I have spent a considerable time during the passage of the Bill. As stated in the first sentence of the White Paper which was presented to Parliament in February last:
The controversy which has arisen about the terms to be used to denote people for whom the United Kingdom Parliament legislates has not been directed, as far as I can discover, against the principle of Clause 1, and before I refer to the controversial issue it is right to emphasise that the basic principle of Clause 1 has been generally accepted as the foundation of the new method of preserving common status. I hope that outstanding fact may be clearly recorded.
The main controversy which has arisen on this Bill is on the question of whether it is a necessary consequence of the acceptance of the principle on which the new method is based that we should create a particular status for the people for whom the United Kingdom Parliament legislates and should describe that status as "citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies." Under the old common code system the need for creating a particular status did not arise. The British Nationality Act of 1914 determined the conditions by which the common status of British subjects should be acquired or lost, but drew no distinction between the people who acquired or lost that status under United Kingdom law and the people who acquired or lost it under the laws of the other self-governing countries of the Commonwealth. There was no need for any such distinction while the codes of the law passed by each of the self-governing countries were practically the same.
But under the new system the question whether an individual acquires or loses the common status will depend on whether he acquires or loses the particular status under the laws of the country to which he belongs. Unless each country creates a particular status for its own people, the object of greater flexibility within a system in which the common status is still retained, is not attainable. The United Kingdom Parliament must, therefore, like the other Commonwealth Parliaments, create a particular status for the people for whom it legislates. It will be by virtue of that particular status that they, like the people of the other Commonwealth countries, will acquire the common status of British subject or Commonwealth citizen.
The creation of a particular status for the people whose nationality is determined by the United Kingdom Parliament is an indispensable element in the new scheme, and those who oppose the creation of a particular status for the people of the United Kingdom and Colonies are unwittingly opposing the only method by which it is possible, having regard to the way in which the Commonwealth has developed and is developing, to maintain the common status of all the peoples of the Commonwealth.
If the need be recognised for creating a particular status for the people whose nationality is determined by the United Kingdom Parliament, the only question remaining is whether that particular status is appropriately described by the words "citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies." In the view of His Majesty's Government there are two fundamental reasons for retaining those words in the Bill. In the first place the terms used to denote the particular status must be clearly distinguishable from the terms used to denote the common status. Long usage of the term "British subject" to describe the common status and the attachment felt for that term by many of the inhabitants of the Dominion make it essential to retain the words "British subject" as one of the alternative terms denoting the common status.
Accordingly the term "British subject" cannot appropriately be used to denote the status which is peculiar to the people of the United Kingdom and Colonies. The presentation of the new scheme would be hopelessly confused if the same term were used both to describe membership of the wide association of Commonwealth peoples and also to describe membership of one of the Commonwealth communities by which membership of the wider association will be acquired.
In the second place, it would be inconsistent with the principle of equality between the self-governing countries of the Commonwealth that the United Kingdom Parliament should attach to the people for whom it legislates as the title of their particular status a title to which the people of other Commonwealth countries have an equal claim and should thereby suggest that the people of the United Kingdom and Colonies have some peculiar right to the title of British subjects and some status under United Kingdom law different from, and which may even perhaps be thought superior to, the status conferred by the laws of the other self-governing countries on their citizens.
The Government have accordingly been bound to reject the proposal that the particular status of the people for whom the United Kingdom Parliament legislates should be described by the term "British subject of the United Kingdom and Colonies," and to adhere to the term "citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies." We are by this Bill creating a new code of law to take the place of the 1914 Act, which is no longer appropriate to present-day conditions and the natural growth of the Commonwealth. Under this new code of law we are conferring a particular status on all those persons who by birth, marriage, descent or naturalisation enter the community of people for whom the United Kingdom Parliament legislates. We call those people our citizens, for that is precisely what they will be. We thereby confer upon them a status which is equivalent to the status conferred by the other countries of the Commonwealth on their citizens, and we recognise that the whole association of peoples who each have the particular status of citizenship under the laws of their own countries have the common status of British subjects of Commonwealth citizens.
The foundation of the new system of legislation is equality between the Commonwealth countries. The United Kingdom claims no superior status to that of the other members, but it is fitting that the United Kingdom should, without delay, legislate to give effect to a system which consultations with the other countries has shown to be acceptable to them. To give effect to this scheme it is necessary that the United Kingdom, like other countries, should create our own citizenship code as the gateway through which our people will pass to the common status of British subject or Commonwealth citizen.
By this Bill the United Kingdom, as an equal partner with the other Commonwealth countries, lays the foundation or the new scheme. The scheme is a product of long consultation with the other countries of the Commonwealth and the Government recommend it to Parliament in confidence that it provides the best and only effective way of preserving a corporate Commonwealth citizenship which is consistent with the development of the freedom, independence and separate identity of each of the self-governing countries of the Commonwealth. We believe that this Bill is a necessary evolution of the Statute of Westminster of 1931, and that it will mark a very great act of recognition by this country of the fundamental principles of that Act.
The Bill also removes what I have regarded since I have been in office as a very bitter and long-standing grievance of a large number of women of our race who have married aliens, sometimes without realising the effect that that would have on their relations with this country. It has, from time to time, been to me a very heartrending thing to have to answer some of the letters which have been addressed to me by women married to aliens of friendly nations and to tell them that if they had been married to an enemy alien I could have re-admitted them to British citizenship. Because they had been married to friendly aliens their only method of getting admission to British nationality is either through the death of their husbands, or through their succeeding in bringing an action against them for divorce.
Although that has been the law of the land for the last 78 years it has, I imagine, within the experience of most Members of this House inflicted very considerable disabilities upon women who were heart and soul still loyal to this country and who desired to establish not merely loyalty of heart, but loyalty by law to this country. I therefore feel that the Clauses of the Bill which deal with this particular matter deserve the support of hon. Members in all parts of the House. We have been in acute conflict on some of the provisions of the Bill, but I would like to thank right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite for the spirit in which the discussions have taken place. I hope that, as a result of our discussions, the need for the Measure may have been made apparent.
I am sure that we can all join in hoping that by our recognition of the equality of the citizens of all the Commonwealth countries—and recognition of the equality of the citizens is the basis for entering into the state of being a British subject or a Commonwealth citizen—we shall have done something to make each of the very diverse peoples who now make up the British Commonwealth of Nations feel that they have, with us, an equal share in the maintenance of the great traditions of liberty and justice for which British citizens throughout the world have been noted. We can only hope that, as the years go by this recognition of our equality—[ Interruption ]. It is a sound sentiment, at any rate.
I just said so to my hon. Friend.
I understood the hon. Gentleman to suggest that I was putting forward a party view.
I am very sorry if I spoke loudly enough to be heard. I was misheard, I assure the right hon. Gentleman.
I thought I heard the words "a good Tory view."
No.
This is one subject which transcends all party divisions. Although we may have our disputes as to the way in which the ideal shall be reached, I am quite sure it is now, and I hope it will always be, a subject in which all parties in the House have a common interest.
5.25 p.m.
With one point with which the right hon. Gentleman dealt we have no quarrel and we entirely agree. It is that the Bill is of great importance and demands most serious consideration at this time. It is because we believe so strongly that time and thought are required to focus the attention of all parts of the Commonwealth on the vitally important question of personal allegiance that we still believe that the well-tried method of an Imperial Conference would have given us the published reports of the discussion and interchange of views on this subject that have proved so useful in the past. We regret very much that that has been denied to us today. I am not at the moment going over the ground on which we have trodden already as to what took place and what conclusions were reached. The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the point which I feel is of the greatest importance in these matters of Commonwealth relations is that before there is a discussion in this House there should be information from the interchange of expression among representatives of the different realms of the British Commonwealth.
The second point, which again I want to make clear, is the general thesis of our opposition in this matter. I cannot put it better than in the summary of my own argument on the Second Reading, as it appeared in "The Times" of 8th July, because it goes to the heart of the present form of the Bill. It was there stated:
I am fortified in that opinion by two matters. In the first place, the right hon. Gentleman made a perfectly legitimate play with the desirability of not having confusion with two uses of the words "British subject." In reply to him again that he and those responsible for the Bill have had to introduce the same verbal confusion by introducing the word "citizen," both in the species and eventually in the genus. If the right hon. Gentleman can see no harm in Commonwealth citizenship being introduced in order to give a name for the genus, I cannot understand why he sees so much wrong in our suggestion that the words "British subject of the United Kingdom and Colonies" describes the actual position, based on an allegiance which does obtain, and which we desire should remain obtaining in this country and in the Colonies.
The second point, which is again beyond argument, is that there will be exactly the same anomalies as obtain at this moment because the conditions of primary citizenship, primary nationality or whatever words one cares to use, are bound to differ in different parts of the Commonwealth. That is the essence of the proposed scheme—that each part will erect its own gateway, and the size and the shape of the gateway may differ. Therefore, the anomalies in obtaining the primary citizenship on which the secondary citizenship depends will be bound to continue in this way.
I want, however, to join the right hon. Gentleman in making clear that no one from whatever angle he has approached this matter has desired for a moment to trespass on the position which was so clearly established by the Statute of Westminster and which we all accept so loyally today, that the Dominions or the Realms of the Commonwealth, whichever term is more suitable today—if I might pause for a moment, this is really an important matter of nomenclature. The Commonwealth today depends on the Crown existing in relation to these various parts, and therefore it is a really important matter that any word which suggests a difference of position from ourselves should if possible be avoided, and that is why I am trying religiously to school myself to use the term "Realms of the Commonwealth" because it expresses exactly the condition that obtains in law and in fact today. I hope I may be forgiven for that discursion. The point seemed to be one worth stating.
To return to the point with which I was dealing, no one desires in any way to infringe the rights of these separate realms or States of the Commonwealth to state as clearly as they like in their own terms what person shall be regarded in what light under their law. All that we say is that, that being the case, the United Kingdom must equally have the same right to say what person shall be regarded in what light under our own law. The third objection which we still maintain is that this approach which has been substituted of the separate citizenships infringes, in the case of the Colonies especially, on the conception of allegiance, and we regard that conception as of practical importance in the Colonies as corresponding with the ideas which millions of its inhabitants hold.
The fourth of our objections is one which I developed on the Committee Stage, and I intend only to summarise it today. I say that the new citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies is an artificial legal category to define an involuntary residue. There is no homogeneity or special community of interests which includes a citizen of these islands and an inhabitant of a distant Colony and excludes a citizen of, say, New Zealand or another Dominion. That emphasises the artificiality to which we object. Again I merely repeat my point that it is wrong to create the machinery of discrimination when we do not intend to discriminate. The Attorney-General said that it was no more the machinery of discrimination than other statutory provisions With the greatest respect, I cannot agree with him. I say that if we create a special citizenship, then it will require a more than usually sustained fight to prevent someone at some stage attaching some meaning to that citizenship by giving it special rights and privileges, and that is the danger which I envisage.
I still say that this Bill in its present form necessitates the exclusion of Eire from Clause 1. Therefore, wrap it up how we like, treat it in the words of the "Economist" as an unmentionable, though we may care to do, it recognises the secession of Eire and cuts off from this country those of her people to whom the connection meant so much, except in the case of those who make application as under the Act. I have merely summarised the reasons, but they are the reasons why I advise my hon. Friends to vote against the Third Reading of the Bill.
There is one point about the present form of the Bill which demands mention before the Bill leaves us, and that is the fact that under Clause 1 as it now stands, the position may occur—and apparently is contemplated as occurring in this way—that in the case of one of the nine Realms mentioned in Clause 1 (3), their inhabitants under Subsection (1) will become British subjects and be known as either British subjects or Commonwealth citizens when that Realm has passed an enactment of the type mentioned in the Clause.
But supposing there occurs, as we hope will not occur, a secession from the Commonwealth. Nevertheless, the inhabitants of the seceded realm would still remain British subjects and/or Commonwealth citizens. That is the position under the Bill, and it would require special legislation ad hoc to make that status on their part cease. I do not think there is any other interpretation that can be made of the Bill. That is the position. That has given rise, as I am sure right hon. Gentlemen opposite have seen, to the greatest heart-searching and doubts in many quarters. Probably both the Home Secretary and the Attorney-General read the first article in the "Economist" on 10th July dealing with this point. That raised the wide issue which, of course, caused great concern because, in dealing with the position created by Clause 1, that newspaper in that article said that: I am glad that both the Home Secretary and the Attorney-General have repudiated the idea that this Bill is a half-way house to some new composition of the Commonwealth, and have emphasised time and again that their intention in this Bill is to find a method which will be an acceptable approach to British subject-hood, in that proud conception of freedom in which we envisage that phrase, but that they have not been endeavouring to make this Bill a half-way house to some new conception of our Commonwealth relations as was given in the article to which I referred a moment ago.
That brings me to the final lesson which we have got from the Bill in this stage. It is that we must in this House be prepared to find the occasions, and to discuss our Commonwealth relations more frequently and with the greatest clarity and frankness. I do not ask the right hon. Gentleman to assent or to dissent until he has considered this matter, because I know he will, but I am sure that in the changed conditions of which he spoke we cannot simply go on relying on the conceptions of the past and not examining the changed conditions of the present. Therefore, I ask the right hon. Gentleman in the broadest sense to consider this with his colleagues, and especially with the Leader of the House.
We are today facing these two different aspects of the matter: on the one hand, the creation of new Dominions. In the past we have built up this great intimacy, which has both its official and its personal aspect, of the family feeling among the different States of the Commonwealth. How is that to be extended to our present position? That is one of our problems and we must consider it. There must be so many people in every quarter of this House who could contribute to that if they had the opportunity.
The second aspect is this: that we are, at the moment—again as a matter irrespective of party—looking for closer unity among the nations of Western Europe. That has to be squared with our Commonwealth responsibility and Commonwealth relations. I will not go into that because it would not be in Order, but I am sure that stating the problem is in Order because I believe fundamentally that it can be done, but I believe that it will mean the most careful examination of our Commonwealth relations and the greatest activity in getting the realms of the Commonwealth together if it is to be done without difficulty and discordance at the present time.
Therefore, while I cannot, for the reasons which I have endeavoured to make clear, advise my friends to do anything but vote against the Third Reading of the Bill, I express the hope that this Bill will be the awakening of a new interest in the British Commonwealth as it exists in the post-war years, and that we shall try, working from the different approaches that must exist on points between us, to secure that increased interest at the present day, and also to secure that the great work which the British Commonwealth has done as the greatest bulwark of peace and prosperity that the world has ever seen, will be continued in still greater strength and prosperity in the years to come.
5.46 p.m.
In his closing words the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) said he hoped to see arising out of this Bill the awakening of a new interest in the British Commonwealth as it exists in the postwar years. That phrase could be taken almost as a justification for this Bill, as we now have it in its restored form, because the very provisions of this Bill face up to the facts of the British Commonwealth, to quote the right hon. and learned Gentleman, as it exists in the post-war years.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman suggested that we should wait for an Imperial Conference and then discuss these issues there, but he must remember that the provisions of this Bill were agreed to by the Dominion Prime Ministers at their meeting in 1946, that Imperial Conferences are difficult to arrange nowadays owing to the commitments in their own countries of the various Prime Ministers, and that it would be a mistake, therefore, to take up the time of the forthcoming Conference with discussion of a matter which had already been agreed to. Let this Conference deal with matters which are still matters of difference. This has already been agreed, and, therefore, it would be a mistake to clutter up the agenda of the forthcoming Conference with an issue of this kind.
The right hon. and learned Member also suggested that we should let symmetry go, not worry about a tidy arrangement for the relationships between the various members of the Commonwealth, but keep both systems—presumably keep what is left of the old common code at the same time as the new Canadian system. But it has not been a matter of Canada dictating this new setup to the rest of the Commonwealth. All the other members of the Commonwealth, including ourselves, have agreed to these changes and, therefore, there is no basis for putting forward the idea that we should let the old system carry on.
A further objection raised by the right hon. and learned Member was that there might be confusion because the word "citizen" appeared in both parts of the definition as regards both the species and the genus. But, surely, the phrases are "citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies" and "citizen of the Commonwealth." It is pretty obvious to all that the latter includes the former and that the two are not identical. On the other hand, "British subject"—that phrase which inevitably would be used without any of the subsequent words
The Bill as it now stands is welcome for four reasons, which I will mention briefly. First, it faces the facts of the Commonwealth as it is today. Whether we like it or not, the old common code has gone and we must make provision for the situation as we find it. Second, it preserves an agreement reached with our fellow members of the Commonwealth, including Eire. Agreements covering such a wide diversity of countries as ourselves, India, Pakistan and Eire must be very welcome and should not be upset.
My third reason for welcoming the Bill is that it definitely recognises the complete equality of all the Dominions within the Commonwealth. It puts us inside the Commonwealth on exactly the same basis as India, Pakistan and Ceylon. They have just as much right as we have to say what shall be the relationships between the Commonwealth countries. In this Measure we underline that we are putting ourselves on exactly the same footing as them by adopting, as they have adopted, our own citizenship and using that as the approach to British subjecthood or Commonwealth citizenship.
My final reason is that mentioned by the Home Secretary in his closing words—that, after 78 years, it disposes of all the absurdities, injustices and anomalies which have existed in the position of married women. I have taken an interest in this subject for some years because the lady who for many years was Chairman of the Nationality of Married Women Committee—the late Mrs. Hartree—was a constituent of mine. Year in and year out she was able to show the injustices and anomalies which were created by the Act of 1870. Before her death last autumn she was able to know that the campaign which her Committee had carried on for so many years had at last been successful, and she knew that what they had fought for would shortly become law. For those four reasons I am glad to be able to say that the Bill which, in its first printed form, was a good Bill, is now a good Bill again, and I welcome it.
5.54 p.m.
By this time the Chamber is somewhat empty, and I am not surprised. After listening this afternoon to the speech of the Home Secretary my head is ringing, not with praise, not with blame, but with pain. I think it was in "The Economist" last week that I read—and I hope I do not misquote the author of the paragraph—that the speeches made by the three right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench throughout the course of this Bill,
I am deeply suspicious of the attitude of the Government towards this Measure. The reasons for this Bill have not been fully explained to the House. I have listened throughout and nothing that has been said by the Home Secretary or the Attorney-General to my mind justifies such far-reaching effects—tampering, as they do, with the status of the Briton all over the world and with allegiance to the King. The right hon. Gentleman's speech this afternoon did not take things any further; it made them worse. His speech was a kind of crossword puzzle of officially inspired phrases that pealed together like bells in a belfry with maddening repetition—doctrinal, abstruse and metaphysical.
I want to know what are the practical political issues behind this Bill. We are not, after all, the Council of Nicea devising a creed or a concourse of early Christian Bishops deciding how many angels can dance upon the point of a needle. We are the House of Commons, in the 20th century and legislation ought to be practical and political, not theoretical and doctrinal. I have not heard one convincing practical argument in justification throughout the course of the Bill. On the contrary, I suspect that doctrine has been concentrated on in order to cover up an ulterior political purpose. The Bill is inspired either by fear or by hope—by fear that, unless we do something, the forces behind the Empire will be weakened; or, worse than that—and I am not one of those disposed over much to trust Left wing governments and their supporters with their ideas of republicanism behind them—inspired by hope—hope that the forces behind the Empire will be weakened and that republicanism will come in with all convenient speed.
We have been told that no one has asked for this Bill. No positive request for it has come from any country. What then about negative understandings behind the scenes? It was, after all, an inter-Imperial Civil Service that framed this Measure. We have not been shown the reports of their deliberations. No Government spokesman at any stage has revealed the line that was taken. Perhaps they do not know. It is quite possible, at the rate things are going, that the Civil Service has now become so arrogant that they do not bother to brief their Ministers on what they do—enough to produce a Bill, supply the Attorney-General with a few casuistical points and rely on the Lobby fodder to do the rest.
I should like to say, in parenthesis but in some seriousness, that concentration of power in the Civil Service has now reached such a stage that the Conservative Party is fully justified in neglecting hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite altogether and attacking the Civil Service as such. We should do it more and more until that Civil Service has been shaped and moulded to a reasonable size and to a reasonable influence. Ministers are going to find it much more difficult to defend the actions of their masters the civil servants than to defend themselves.
Therefore, I want to know more about this secret council of civil servants. Did the representative from Eire indicate that Eire would co-operate with the United Kingdom more, or less, if this Bill were passed? Did the representatives from India, Pakistan and Ceylon indicate that their countries would remain in the Empire a longer or shorter time if this Bill were passed? What are the practical political purposes behind this Bill? Is it designed to make it more difficult, or easier, for a Dominion to leave the British Empire? What view is taken of Burma in present circumstances? Will this Bill stave off the Communisation of Burma, or otherwise? Those are the kind of practical problems of which we should be told.
What about Australia? The Home Secretary made great play on the Committee stage with consultation with the Prime Minister of Australia. Poor man! He arrives in this country to discuss trade and emigration, rushes to Berlin and in a speech says he supports the Government's foreign policy, returns and departs again in a matter of hours. In the interim the Home Secretary flings at him this complicated doctrinal issue and comes triumphantly down to the House with the answer he wants. I am not suggesting for a moment that the Prime Minister of Australia gave an ill-considered opinion, but I would much rather be told of evidence of formal resolutions asking for an alteration in status, passed by the Parliaments of the Dominion of Australia and of the several Australian States. We have had no evidence put before us of any such thing. Where is the evidence? Of course it is not there. Who cares about this thing in Australia, except the Prime Minister and an official in the Department of External Affairs, who is one of this group of civil servants—two men in 7,000,000? They care, and of course, such is their power, that the thing will be done.
The Government's sense of timing of this Measure is appalling. Canada is the most tangential of all the Dominions. They pass a Bill in 1945. Then come the official discussions and then, following hard upon the discussions, this Bill,
The noble Lord has been going exceedingly wide and now he is certainly far outside the purview of the Third Reading of this Bill. If he will forgive my saying so, he has not said one word about the contents of the Bill which is the only matter in question.
I was not proposing to go any further. I used half a sentence by way of illustration and I assure you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I was going straight back to the Measure. It is far worse to use a Bill of this kind to force great changes in the vital institutions of Empire. Allegiance and nationality, words occurring in this Measure which have been bandied about in speech after speech, are binding links of Empire. If any grafting is to be done on the tree it should be on the branches and not at the roots.
The hon. Member for North-West Hull (Mr. R. Mackay) put up a fantastic argument on Committee stage. I am sorry he is not present now. He said the Dominions were jealous of our status at home and wanted to drag us down, or words to that effect. In my experience that is not true at all. If it were true it would be a most small-minded and dog-in-the-manger attitude, which we should repudiate in this House by refusing to comply with their requests. This House of Commons should be the last, not the second, legislature to turn from subjecthood to citizenship. Citizenship! His Majesty the King resides in London and not in Ottawa or Sydney. Why should we engage in a race with Canada and Australia and fall over ourselves to make His Majesty reign over
This Government touches nothing without demeaning it—the relationship and status of great Imperial countries, the inspiring symbolism of nationality and subjecthood, the very coinage which supports and mounts the King's likeness. We on these benches, unfortunately, have no power to work any good on this Measure. It will be left to another place to do that, and I pray they will exercise that power. This is another issue on which the people of this country will be found to be on the side of the House of Lords and against His Majesty's Government and their bureaucracy.
6.7 p.m.
The noble Lord the hon. Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) began his speech by talking about the abstruse metaphysical argument propounded by the Home Secretary and said he had not heard a practical argument put before the House. One can only come to the conclusion that either he was not listening to the arguments which were presented or that he did not understand them.
There is a very great difference between the speech to which we have just listened and the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe). I think I heard all the speeches made by the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby in the course of this and other Debates when the Bill was before the House. I hope he will allow me to say that they were characterised by a clarity which would make it impossible not to understand his argument although one can disagree with it, and I do disagree with it. On each occasion he began his speech by putting forward what he called the general thesis of his opposition to this Bill, but I noticed he changed the general thesis on each occasion. The basis of his opposition today differs from his opposition on Second Reading.
On Second Reading the right hon. and learned Gentleman put forward five main grounds of opposition which I noted and dealt with in my speech which followed. He said that this Bill will in some way interfere with the right of citizens of different parts of the British Commonwealth of Nations to intermarry. He said it would in some way interfere with Commonwealth association and with free military collaboration. He said that formerly the Empire and Commonwealth provided an opportunity for people at home to go out and carve their careers and something about British consuls being unable in future to protect our nationals in their various Commonwealths.
The House will realise that today he did not say a word about any of those objections. Indeed, he put it on a somewhat more picturesque ground by giving an extract from a leader in "The Times" which spoke about the Empire and the Commonwealth gradually lapsing into being merely ornamental and exhorted the House to let symmetry go. That was the case which he presented today. He suggested that there was something about this Bill which is designed to bring about a certain unnatural symmetry in the British Commonwealth of Nations and indeed that the Bill had little practical utility. I hope to satisfy the House in the few minutes which I shall occupy that this is indeed a very practical Bill, one of great utility to the Commonwealth of Nations.
The right hon. and learned Member for West Derby said towards the end of his speech that the idea of citizenship in some way infringed the idea of allegiance to His Majesty the King. That, I suggest, shows a complete misunderstanding of the situation because anyone who understands the Bill will realise that it has quite the contrary effect. It tends to cement together and solidify the various nations which compose the British Commonwealth of Nations. I welcome this Bill in its restored form for that very reason. In its present form it is fitted to do the work for which it was originally intended when it was introduced in another place.
Objections were made that this Bill should not be put forward at the present time on the eve of a Dominion or Imperial Conference, that it should have been postponed until after its consideration by that Conference. That was put forward on former stages but several speeches from this side of the House have made it perfectly clear that its basic idea has been considered at Dominion and Imperial Conferences during the last 40 years. During the Second Reading Debate I read some extracts from speeches that were made at some of those Conferences, which made it perfectly clear that this is a familiar idea and that it was considered in 1911, in 1923, in 1937 and since then. I took some extracts at random in order to show that this idea is perfectly commonplace to the various Dominions that compose the British Commonwealth of Nations, that it has been considered many times during the last 40 years and that there have been expressions by them in favour of doing what we are now doing. Moreover, the other Dominions have legislated in this very manner, and it has been pointed out that they expect us, and properly so, to do the same kind of thing.
Many of the objections to this Bill that have been put forward seem to me to arise from three mistaken views. One is a failure to appreciate that the British Commonwealth of Nations is not static, that it is a growing organism and that it must alter, as growing organisms will, each member in relation to the others as it continues to grow. The second mistaken view arose because the opposition to this Bill took too narrow a concept of the present and the future of this British Commonwealth of Nations, the like of which was never known in the history of the world before. I think it was Arthur Balfour at one of the Imperial Conferences—in 1926, I believe—who said that it was a versatile organisation the like of which was never known in the history of the world before.
The third mistaken view is a failure to realise the real meaning of the three phrases which have been used most in the course of this Debate—British subject, Commonwealth citizenship and British citizenship. I suggest that "British subject" is the highest of these, the highest and widest concept, based on allegiance to His Majesty the King, allegiance which is owed by every citizen not only in the British Commonwealth, far-flung throughout the world, but also in the British Empire, which is a slightly different concept. The phrase includes people in the British Empire and in the British Commonwealth of Nations and the idea of "British subject" is based on the idea of nationality, not on religion, race, creed or class; it includes all of them. So much for the idea of British subject. In my submission the idea of Commonwealth citizenship is the same but it applies only to the British Commonwealth of Nations, not to the Empire.
Then we come to the much discussed expression "British citizen." Under this concept of "citizen," the citizen may be either a British citizen, an Australian citizen, a New Zealand citizen or a South African citizen; he is a citizen of the territory which he occupies. It was suggested during the Second Reading Debate that there was some conflict between the idea of citizen and the idea of British subject. It was put forward, I think properly, that that citizenship is the gate through which aliens may enter into British citizenship and in that way into the status of becoming British subjects, possessing British nationality and owing allegiance to the King.
Once these three distinctions are realised, it seems to me that all the difficulties about the construction of this not very difficult Bill fade away. One then appreciates the need for the Bill and that brings me to the practical side of the needs for the Bill. I shall name only one. There are various phases of human endeavour and interest and organisation within the British Commonwealth in which it is necessary to have citizenship as distinct from nationality and as distinct from the status of British subject. I name only one, which I named in the Second Reading Debate. It arises in connection with the Court of International Justice at the Hague. It is well-known that only one representative of each nation may be elected. The question arose as to how many should be elected or might be elected from the British Commonwealth of Nations. If there was no separate citizenship for each Dominion there could be only one representative for the Empire.
Again I turn to that authoritative writer, Professor Beriedale Keith upon this very topic. In his "Sovereignty of the British Dominions" on page 353 he says:
Our right to this Bill is unquestionable and it seems that the only question before the House is our need of it. From the quotation I have just given the need is obvious. I hope that the Bill will pass, I hope it will pass in the form in which it now is, and if it does I have every confidence that it will do a great deal towards the consolidation of the British Commonwealth of Nations.
6.20 p.m.
I hope that the hon. and learned Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Hector Hughes) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his technical and legal arguments on this matter. I do not wish in any way to depreciate them or to do otherwise than to admit that he should undoubtedly be sitting in the place of the present Scottish Law Officer. I do not at this moment wish to indulge in the technical, legal controversy which has caused so much pleasure to him in his researches for this occasion.
I should like to say how glad I am—and here I can agree with the Home Secretary and also with my right hon. Friend who spoke earlier—that we have been able in this Measure to settle the very great difficulty which many women in this country have experienced in the matter of their nationality. As the Home Secretary has said, practically every Member of Parliament, even though he may have been only a Member of this Parliament, must realise that that is a thing which everyone would like to have seen settled a considerable while ago. I am not sure that the Home Secretary did not say that this matter might have been settled much earlier if it had not been for the war.
The Home Secretary stated, and I agree with him, that there has developed on this Bill a great deal of non-party feeling so far as the Empire is concerned. That is an immense development which has happened over a considerable number of years. It is one which I welcome very sincerely. This part which we are taking in the development of the idea of the position of the inhabitants of the Dominions and Colonies and ourselves, in regard to whether they are subjects or citizens, is a matter of controversy today, but it may not be a matter of controversy between us for very long.
To illustrate why I can be hopeful on that matter, I would say that I first began politics by standing for Northwich in Cheshire in January, 1910. Among the things which I wanted then and over which I have no doubt any one on the opposite side of the House would have been against me, was Imperial Preference and the unity of the British Empire. In those days any idea of Imperial Preference was anathama to the whole of the Left wing or what today would be called the Left side of Parliamentary politics. To day it is accepted by all parties. May I use that as an illustration of the fact that we have agreement there where we had disagreement in the past? I have no doubt that the Home Secretary, if he had taken part against me, would have been against me in that matter although I think we might have agreed in the desire for unity within the Empire. May I say incidentally that I have not taken part in an election in Cheshire since 1910 and therefore the right hon. Gentleman only happens to be 37 years out of date which if not a long while for him—
At the previous General Election I think the Conservative majority was four. I dare say that when we go further back and nearer to the time when the hon. Member had some influence there the Conservative majority may have diminished even more.
I am quite aware of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's extreme skill, but if he goes back previous to my time, he will find no evidence—
The hon. Member must address himself to the contents of the Bill.
I regret if I have diverged in any way, but I thought I was answering a point and trying to build up the value of the position of unity from my experience of the past. If I was diverted to a previous Election, I regret it and I shall not follow it any further. I realise that the Home Secretary has got away with a good deal more on this point because he knows I cannot answer it now.
I have not said anything controversial of this Bill. I have heard that I can be controversial if I wish, but this idea of gradually building up among the British people a universal citizenship, or position as a subject—I do not mind which name it is called—is not new. It is one which the party to which I belong have done everything to support for a long while. This gradual development of freedom of citizenship, of freedom of the individual within the Empire and within the Dominions is one which undoubtedly owes more in its conception and development to Mr. Joseph Chamberlain than to any citizen of the whole British Empire. It has developed under many people who thought differently in the past, like General Smuts. It is an idea, this Commonwealth of Nations, which has been built up and today very few people are against it. It has made a tradition of free people living together such as the world has never known before, and I regret that in this Bill there is this element of dispute over what may seem to be in it.
We on this side of the House believe that we are right. Hon. Members on the other side, as was shown by the speech of the hon. and learned Member for North Aberdeen, believe that there is a great deal more legal truth in their position. I have no doubt that the Attorney-General will wind up with his usual legal speech, pointing out the position of the Socialist Party and all the technical, legal arguments of that side. But I, as an ordinary Member and not a lawyer, do believe, as the Home Secretary said earlier, that it is essential that we should keep a very wide degree of unity on these matters. I am very sorry indeed that the Government introduced this particular line of thought at this time.
I know as well as the hon. and learned Member for North Aberdeen that this has been discussed again and again at Imperial Conferences. Of course, I know the position of Canada, Australia and the Australian Prime Minister, but I am not aware that at any Dominion Conference the form of wording which we are now asked to adopt has been adopted. I say frankly and sincerely that I am sorry that a Bill of this kind which contains great advantages as it relates to the nationality of certain women, and which in many other ways is a good Bill, should contain a particular form of words which could have been avoided and upon which even now it might be possible to compromise. I hope that even at this late stage, it may be possible to get out of the difficulty without making the matter too controversial. If I have said anything controversial on the Bill or on the difficulty between the two parties, I regret it. I most sincerely believe in the unity which binds us together in one great Commonwealth of Nations.
6.32 p.m.
I think the House can congratulate itself on the fact that this Bill will leave it in a workable and sensible condition which is calculated to implement and carry out the basic agreement which has been reached upon this matter between the different Commonwealth countries, rather than to frustrate that agreement and to create chaos and confusion in the whole of our nationality law, as the Bill would have done if we had not succeeded in restoring it to its present form. Whether, after listening to the last two speeches from the opposite side of the House, we can congratulate ourselves on feeling that hon. Members opposite understand any the better the reasons for this Bill, the pur- pose of it or the effect of it, is a matter about which, I must confess, that I feel rather less confidence.
The noble Lord the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) appeared to me to make one of the most disgraceful speeches he has ever made—and he has made a good many. He seemed to suggest that he was better able to speak for and to represent the voice of the Government of Australia than is the Prime Minister of Australia. He betrayed his ignorance about the purpose and the effect of this Bill by speaking at some length about the position of Burma under its provisions, not knowing, and I daresay not caring, that Burma is not affected in the slightest degree by any provision contained in this Measure.
The noble Lord always speaks with such lofty and complete detachment from the realities of current affairs, such complete and abysmal ignorance of what is going on in the world around him, such indifference to the existing relationships between the sister countries of the Commonwealth, that I sometimes wonder whether, by some curious dispensation, he is not really the ghost of some long-forgotten era many hundreds of years ago when it was proper to speak of the ordinary people of this country as serfs, and of such Colonies as we then possessed as being mere Colonies and Dependencies under the dominion of the United Kingdom Parliament.
The noble Lord said that he thought that this Bill was introduced in the hope of promoting the ideas of republicanism in the British Commonwealth of Nations. The noble Lord thought wrong, if indeed he thought at all. It is utterly untrue to suggest, as the noble Lord did suggest, that this Bill interferes in the slightest degree with the existing status of a British subject or with the allegiance of all British subjects to His Majesty the King.
The noble Lord in introducing that remarkable suggestion that this Bill might lead to the Commonwealth—I think he called it the Empire and it was characteristic of his discussion of our relationships with the Commonwealth that he should have done so—developing along republican lines, introduced what seemed to me to be a most mischievous argument calcu- lated to do harm to Commonwealth relationships and to undermine the very status of allegiance to the Crown which this Bill is intended to preserve and promote. All that one can seek to do in dealing with the noble Lord is to give him the facts, and to give him the facts over and over again; but to give him the capacity to understand facts, however elementary and simple they may be, is something which is not within the capacity either of His Majesty's Government or, I venture to think, of his own friends on the opposite side of the House.
As for the attack which the noble Lord made on members of the Imperial Civil Service, it was so unworthy that I propose to treat it with the contempt it deserves, except just to say this: the principles embodied now in this Bill were not principles laid down and agreed upon by members of the Civil Service of the different Commonwealth countries, but by their Prime Ministers. These matters were discussed between the Prime Ministers of the sovereign States forming our Commonwealth in 1946. It was on the instructions of those Prime Ministers that the appropriate civil servants with responsibility to them worked out the details which have subsequently been embodied by us, on the responsibility of His Majesty's Government of the United Kingdom, in this Bill.
Having said that about the noble Lord's intervention into the matter, I must place on record, in case there should be any kind of misapprehension about it either in Australia or in any other of the Commonwealth countries, or indeed anywhere else, that the noble Lord speaks for nobody in this country and that his references to the Commonwealth countries as being children—I took down the phrase—who have not yet gone to school, denotes a conception of our Commonwealth relationships which is utterly foreign to and is repudiated by all responsible and thinking people in this House who believe not in the old and outworn ideas of Empire and Dominion but in the free and developing relationship of the sovereign States in the Commonwealth.
The noble Lord, I regret to think, outdid his previous efforts to damage and indeed to destroy the happy understanding which exists between the different Governments of the Commonwealth countries. I can only express regret that such a reckless, malicious and wholly irresponsible, although I do not doubt carefully calculated, speech should have been made by the noble Lord in this House.
Now I come to the speech of my right hon. and learned Friend, if I may call him that, the Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe). He certainly approached this matter, as one would expect, in an entirely different spirit. We all know his sincere desire, shared, I am quite certain, by everybody on each side of the House, to promote the development of the Commonwealth as the free association of sovereign States which in fact it is. While one can dismiss the speech of the noble Lord the Member for South Dorset as being wholly irrelevant, or, where it was not irrelevant, wholly insignificant, I rather fear that the decision which the right hon. and learned Gentleman and his friends have taken to divide against this Bill may have a more unfortunate effect on Commonwealth relationships than any speech by the noble Lord could possibly have.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman sought, by the simple device of giving the common status under this Bill a rather derogatory title, to cast doubt on the necessity for dealing with the situation at all, and I am bound to say—and I hope the right hon. and learned Gentleman will agree with me—that it is a little unfortunate to suggest that the status of British subjects after this Bill has been passed, will be a merely derivative and superfluous embellishment—I think that is the phrase he used—a suggestion which does not derive any greater force or substance from the fact that it has been repeated in the course of newspaper reports in "The Times."
British nationality under this Bill will be no more derivative and no less significant than it is at the present time. Once we concede, as everybody except the noble Lord at once concedes, that it is for each of the Commonwealth countries to declare who amongst their people—and I am using a non-technical and neutral phrase—shall enjoy the privilege of being British subjects, the status of British subjects is bound, in a sense, to be derivative—derived from the legislation of that country, rather than from the legislation of the Imperial Parliament, and it is bound also to follow from that that one will have the concurrent status of local citizenship and common nationality. There is nothing really derivative, at all events in any derogatory sense, in the position under which a Commonwealth country will declare for itself, as in fact they have in fact already started to do, which persons under its law shall be British subjects.
That may be derivative in the sense that their power so to declare is derived from their right under our existing constitutional practice to make their own laws about this matter, but it is certainly derivative in no derogatory sense. How that position would be improved or altered by the substitution in this Bill of the expression "British subject of the United Kingdom and Colonies" for the expression "citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies," which we shall use in common with the other sovereign countries in our Commonwealth, I am afraid I have never been able fully to understand. It may be the case, and I make this concession to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, that the use of the word "citizen," both to describe the local and the common status under Clause 1 of this Bill, does diminish the clarity of the language which has been used.
The two expressions are there treated as synonymous and interchangeable. But the term "citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies" will—I should have thought—normally convey a very different meaning to the term "citizen of the Commonwealth." If there is confusion arising from the use of the same phrase there, that surely is no reason to make it worse confounded by using the term "British subject" to describe two entirely different conceptions. It seems to us, as it seemed to the Prime Ministers of the different Commonwealth countries, that it really was most important that we should use this latter expression "British subject" to mean what it means today and nothing less than it means today—the common status which is enjoyed by all the peoples of the Commonwealth of allegiance to His Majesty the King.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman expressed difficulty in understanding the point, otherwise I should not have interrupted him. The difference between us is this. We say that, for the people of the United Kingdom and Colonies, we should maintain the old definition which is in the Act of 1914, expressing the common law of persons fully within His Majesty's allegiance. We say that that expresses the reality of the position as to this country and the Commonwealth, and it is because it expresses that reality that we want to keep it.
I am much obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but that view does not, I venture to suggest, really make the status of people either in this country or in any of the Commonwealth countries any the less or any the more a derivative status. It is simply giving a different name—the existing name, I agree, and the name of which we are very proud—but it is simply giving a different name to the status which will arise under this Bill. I said that it was the existing name and the name of which we are very proud. Perhaps that was not entirely correct, because the existing name is "British subject," not "British subject of the United Kingdom and Colonies"—British subject all over the Commonwealth and all over the world.
As I said earlier, I think it would be most unfortunate if we were to give that expression, so well recognised in the history of the world and the traditions of our own country, a smaller and more local connotation than it possesses at present. That certainly would not do anything to make clear the conception which this Bill creates of local status as opposed to common citizenship, subjecthood, nationality, allegiance, call it what you will, of the Commonwealth as a whole.
What the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not do, and what all hon. Members opposite have consistently and persistently failed to do throughout our discussions on this Bill, is to suggest what possible alternative, apart from a change of language in regard to our own local status in this country, there might be made in this scheme and in the machinery set out in this Bill. What is the alternative, because calling ourselves by the very narrow phrase "British subject of the United Kingdom and Colonies," whilst it might possibly be pleasing to the Little Englanders, would not make the common status any the less a derivative one, nor solve the problem as to the methods and machinery for the future which has to be solved by a Bill of this kind. I cannot help thinking that the real explanation of the long contest we have had in this House is that, in their natural desire not to let down those who, in another place, reduced this Bill to patent absurdities, hon. Members opposite have shut their eyes to the need for the Bill and to the effects which it will have.
In commending this Bill now to the House, I want once more to re-state in a sentence or two the three basic considerations which underlie these proposals and which apparently some hon. Members opposite have still not fully appreciated. The first is this, and it is the fundamental one which compels us to deal with this situation at the present time. The existing system, whereby allegiance and the status of a British subject rest on the basis of a common code which was created by the adoption in the different Commonwealth countries of a Statute or Statutes passed by the Imperial Parliament, has broken down owing to the Commonwealth countries in 1933 and 1935—and, of couse, more particularly and immediately in 1946—enacting, as it is their undoubted right to enact, their own laws, laws which, at first, had the effect of modifying the common code, and now, as in the case of Canada, of substituting wholly different machinery, machinery along lines which, as we now know, is to be followed in Australia, probably immediately in New Zealand, and in due course, as we believe, in the rest of the Commonwealth countries. That was the first consideration to which we were compelled to have regard. The noble Lord may prefer to bury his head in the sand in regard to these matters, but the Governments of the Commonwealth countries, desiring to maintain and promote the idea of the common status, could not ignore these facts.
Secondly, faced by the necessity of establishing some new form of machinery whereby, in future, the people of the different Commonwealth countries could secure the common status, and could continue to secure the common status, and thus become members of the British Commonwealth, members of the same single family under His Majesty, the Commonwealth countries all agreed that the gateway of each other's citizenship should provide the entry to the family status.
Now I come to the third consideration. What we are dealing with in this Bill—as we have to do if it is to be preserved—is not the common status itself, not the allegiance to His Majesty, not the right to be described as a British subject, not the privileges and the responsibilities which follow from the fact of being a British subject, but the method by which, in future, that status may be obtained and carried and transmitted from country to country, and from British subject to British subject. We are not affecting in a single particular, the rights and privileges of a British subject as to what he calls himself, as to what he is entitled to do or to be in the different parts of the Commonwealth, or as to the privileges he enjoys as a subject owing allegiance to His Majesty the King. All those things remain entirely unaltered and unaffected by this Bill. All we seek to do is to create machinery for their maintenance and transmission in the future. Those are the basic principles underlying this Bill.
I venture to think that they have not been entirely understood by hon. Members opposite. Indeed, only during the course of the Committee stage I ventured to interrupt the right hon. Member for North Leeds (Mr. Peake) because, apparently, it had not up to then been appreciated that the Commonwealth countries had fully agreed to the adoption of the basic principle which is implemented by Clause 1 of the Bill, although that fact had been publicly stated in the clearest possible terms in the White Paper which was available to the House many months ago.
In those circumstances, what good purpose is to be achieved by delaying this matter further, as the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby suggested, with a view to its consideration again by another Commonwealth Conference, I confess I fail to understand. Is it by withdrawing this Bill now that we shall really convince the Commonwealth countries of our good faith in desiring to maintain the common status? Is it by delaying this Measure now, which puts all the Commonwealth countries on an equality with the United Kingdom in regard to these matters, claiming no discrimination between subject and subject in the Commonwealth and in the United Kingdom, that we shall best assure the other Commonwealth countries that we do not consider them in any way subordinate to ourselves? Is it by putting back the consideration of this matter to another conference of exactly the same kind and exactly the same status as that which considered it in 1946, that we shall best prove to the Commonwealth Prime Ministers our earnest desire to co-operate with them, expeditiously and equally, without the creation of formal and procedural checks and obstacles to agreement and to the implementation of agreement?
If we mean to retain the respect for British institutions and the United Kingdom Parliament which, I am sure, with the exception of the noble Lord, all of
us desire should be held throughout our Commonwealth, and if we mean anything by all the lip service which, from time to time, we pay to the idea of the Commonwealth, would it not be better that we should now welcome this realistic and practical Measure which will greatly help to preserve the idea of the common family through the Commonwealth, rather than that we should now seek to divide against it and frustrate the implementation of that on which the Commonwealth Prime Ministers have fully and clearly agreed?
Question put, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
The House divided: Ayes, 223; Noes, 107.
Division No. 265.] AYES. [6.58 p.m. Acland, Sir Richard de Freitas, Geoffrey Kinley, J. Adams, Richard (Balham) Delargy, H. J. Kirby, B. V. Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South) Dodds, N. N. Lee, F. (Hulme) Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) Donovan, T. Leslie, J. R. Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Dumpleton, C. W. Levy, B. W. Andersen, A. (Motherwell) Dye, S. Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton) Attewell, H. C. Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C Lewis, J. (Bolton) Attlee, Rt. Hon. C R. Edwards, John (Blackburn) Lipson, D. L Ayles, W. H. Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly) Upton, Lt.-Col. M Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B. Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel) Lyne, A. W. Bacon, Miss A. Evans, E. (Lowestoft) McAdam, W. Balfour, A. Ewart, R. McEntee, V. La T. Barstow, P. G. Fernyhough, E. McGhee, H. G. Barton, C. Field, Capt. W. J. Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.) Battley, J. R. Follick, M. McLeavy, F. Bechervaise, A. E Foot, M. M. Macpherson, T. (Romford) Benson, G. Fraser, T. (Hamilton) Mainwaring, W. H Beswick, F. Ganley, Mrs. C. S. Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield) Blackburn, A. R. Glanville, J. E. (Consett) Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping) Blenkinsop, A. Grenfell, D. R. Mathers, Rt. Hon. George Board man, H. Grey, C. F. Mellish, R. J. Bottomley, A. G. Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) Middleton, Mrs. L Bowden, Fig. Offr. H. W. Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly) Mikardo, Ian Braddock, T. (Mitcham) Guest, Dr. L. Haden Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R Bramall, E. A. Gunter, R. J. Mitchison, G. R Brook, O. (Halifax) Guy, W. H. Monslow, W. Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) Hale, Leslie Moody, A. S. Brown, George (Belper) Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil Morgan, Dr. H. B. Brown, T. J. (Ince) Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen) Burden, T. W. Hardy, E. A. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.) Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.) Haworth, J. Murray J. D Castle, Mrs. B. A. Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford) Nally, W. Chamberlain, R. A Herbison, Miss M. Naylor, T. E. Champion, A. J. Hewitson, Capt. M. Neal, H. (Clay Cross) Chafer, D. Hobson, C. R. Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.) Chetwynd, G. R Holman, P. Nicholls, H. R (Stratford) Cobb, F. A. Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth) O'Brien, T. Cocks, F. S. Hoy, J. Oliver, G. H. Coldrick, W. Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.) Orbach, M. Collindridge, F. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr) Paget, R. T. Colman, Miss G. M. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Comyns, Dr. L. Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.) Palmer, A. M. F. Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G. Hymd, H. (Hackney, C.) Parkin, B. T. Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.) Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.) Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe) Corlett, Dr. J. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Paton, J. (Norwich) Cove, W. G. Jeger, G. (Winchester) Pearson, A. Crawley, A. Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St Pancras, S.E.) Perrins, W. Daggar, G. Jenkins, R. H. Porter, E (Warrington) Daines, P. Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools) Porter, G. (Leeds) Davies, Edward (Burslem) Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow) Price, M. Phillips Davies, Ernest (Enfield) Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) Pritt, D. N. Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.) Keenan, W. Proctor, W T. Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Kenyon, C Pursey, Comdr. H Deer, G. Key, Rt. Hon C. W. Randall, H. E
Ranger, Soskice, Rt. Hon Sir Frank Warbey, W. N. Reeves, J. Sparks, J. A. Wells, P. L. (Faversham) Reid, T (Swindon) Steele, T. West, D. G. Richards, R. Stokes, R. R. Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.) Ridealgh, Mrs. M. Stubbs, A. E. White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth) Sylvester, G. O. Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) Symonds, A. L. Willey, F. T. (Sunderland) Royle, C. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove) Scott-Elliott, W Taylor, Dr S. (Barnet) Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley) Segal, Dr. S. Thomas, D E. (Aberdare) Williams, W R (Heston) Shackleton, E. A. A Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin) Willis, E. Sharp, Granville Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens) Thurtle, Ernest Woods, G. S. Silverman, J. (Erdington) Tolley, L. Yates, V. F Silverman, S. S. (Nelson) Ungoed-Thomas, L. Young, Sir R. (Newton) Simmons, C. J. Vernon, Maj. W. F. Younger, Hon. Kenneth Skeffington-Lodge, T. C. Viant, S. P. Skinnard, F. W. Wadsworth, G. TELLERS FOR THE AYES: Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S) Walkden, E. Mr. Joseph Henderson and Mr. Hannan. Snow, J. W. Walker, G. H. Sorensen, R. W. Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst) NOES. Assheton, Rt. Hon R. Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley) Pickthorn, K. Baldwin, A. E. Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.) Pitman, I. J. Beamish, Maj. T. V. H. Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Birch, Nigel Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry) Boles, Lt.-Col. D G (Wells) Hogg, Hon. Q. Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. Bossom, A C. Hope, Lord J. Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury) Bower, N. Howard, Hon. A. Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead) Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C) Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham) Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col W. Jeffreys, General Sir G Ropner, Col L. Buchan-Hepburn, P G. T. Keeling, E. H. Ross, Sir R D. (Londonderry) Carson, E Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H Sanderson, Sir F. Challen, C. Lambert, Hon. G. Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow) Clarke, Col. R. S. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H Smith, E. P. (Ashford) Conant, Maj. R. J. E. Lennox-Boyd, A. T. Smithers, Sir W. Corbet, Lieut.-Col U. (Ludlow) Lindsay, M. (Solihull) Spearman, A. C. M. Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F C Linstead, H. N. Stanley, Rt. Hon. O. Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O E Low, A. R. W. Strauss, Henry (English Universities) Crowder, Capt John E Lucas, Major Sir J Sutcliffe, H. Cuthbert, W. N. Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. Taylor, C. S (Eastbourne) Davidson, Viscountess MacAndrew, Col. Sir C. Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.) De la Bère, R. McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth) Digby, S. W. Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight) Touche, G. C. Dodds-Parker, A. D Mackeson, Brig. H. R Turton, R H Drayson, G. B Maclay, Hon. J. S. Vane, W. M. F. Drewe, C. Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) Wakefield, Sir W. W. Dugdale, Maj. Sir T (Richmond) Macpherson, N. (Dumfries) Watt, Sir G S. Harvie Duncan, Rt. Hn Sir A. (City of Lond.) Maitland, Comdr. J. W. Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.) Duthie, W. S. Marsden, Capt. A. White, J B. (Canterbury) Eccles, D. M. Marshall, D. (Bodmin) Williams, C. (Torquay) Eden, Rt. Hon. A. Marshall, S. H. (Sutton) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter Mellor, Sir J. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Fletcher, W. (Bury) Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury) York, C. Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. Young, Sir A S L (Partick) Gage, C. Neill, W. F. (Belfast, N.) Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. Odey, G. W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES: George, Maj. Rt Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke) O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Commander Agnew and Grimston, R V Orr-Ewing, I. L. Mr. Studholme. Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Isle of Man (Customs) Bill
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tomorrow.
Public Registers and Records (Scotland) Bill [Lords]
Order for Second Reading read.
7.6 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This is a small Bill designed to effect improvements in organisation and procedure in the Registers and Record Departments in Scotland. The main purpose of the Bill is to separate these two Departments, which were combined in 1928 under a single Keeper of the Registers and Records, and to appoint separate Keepers of the Registers and Records, respectively. The Registers Department is concerned in the main with land registration in Scotland. On the other side, the Record Department deals with the historical and legal archives of Scotland. I am informed that the combination of the two offices in 1928 was expected to achieve efficiency and economy; but these expectations have not been realised.
The two offices perform two different functions, for which different qualifications are required, and experience has shown clearly that the practical advantages lie in separation. It is in line with the practice in other countries that the Record Office should be a separate administrative unit; and this is recommended by the Scottish Records Advisory Council, by a Sub-Committee of the Standing Commission on Museums and Galleries and in the First Report of Lore Macmillan's Committee on Land Registration in Scotland, to which I shall refer further in a few moments.
Clause 1 proposes to have a separate Scottish Record Office, and this suggestion will, I am sure, be generally welcomed throughout the whole of Scotland. If I might refer to page 5 of the Report it will be seen that it stated:
Clauses 2 and 3 of the Bill provide for minor improvements of procedure in the Register of Sasines as recommended in the First Report of Lord Macmillan's Committee and Clause 4 empowers the Court of Session to make rules on some matters of detail. The remaining Clauses are of a routine nature and do not call for comment.
I have already mentioned the Macmillan Report and I should like to say a few words about the changes which have been made consequentially upon the recommendations contained in that Report. Clause 2 of the Bill, as originally introduced in another place, proposed to give effect to major alterations of procedure in the Register of Sasines. These alterations were first recommended by the Fleming Committee in 1928 and endorsed by the Organisation and Methods Division of the Treasury in January, 1947; and the General Council of Solicitors in Scotland, when consulted last summer, raised no objections. When, however, the Bill was introduced in another place the matter proved highly controversial and the Government at once agreed that it was one for further expert inquiry. Lord Macmillan kindly agreed to preside over a Committee which was accordingly appointed to review the processes of registration in the Sasines Office, and to consider the further question of registration of title. In a report of 10th June, 1948, on the first item of their remit, the Committee are against major alterations in the existing system. The registration procedure is of a highly technical nature and essentially one for experts; and the Government have accepted the recommendations of the Macmillan Committee.
The proposals for major alterations in the Register of Sasines, which led to controversy, have accordingly been dropped and the provisions regarding the Register of Sasines in the Bill before the House are limited to the minor changes recommended by the Macmillan Committee so far as they require legislation. I understand that these minor changes are generally acceptable. I should like to take this opportunity to pay warm tribute to Lord Macmillan for the speed with which the investigation on the first item of the Committee's remit has been completed and for the simplicity and clearness of the Committee's report on a very abstruse subject; the report has been extremely helpful to all who studied it.
There are two further matters dealt with in the Report of the Macmillan Committee to which I should like to refer. The first of these matters relates to shortage of staff in the Register of Sasines, where the volume of work has much increased since the war. There have been practical difficulties, largely because of the general shortage of manpower, in recruiting staff, but it is hoped that it will be possible to strengthen the staff substantially in the immediate future.
The second point relates to the cost of the Register of Sasines, the fees for which under statute should not be more than are sufficient to meet the expenses. The preparation of annual accounts showing the revenue and expenditure of the Sasines Office were discontinued during the war, but steps are being taken to resume the issue and presentation of accounts as soon as possible. There are ups and downs in the balance of revenue and expenditure in the Sasines Office. In some periods a surplus has been shown and in other periods a deficit. It illustrates the difficulty of avoiding making a profit sometimes when one is trying to balance accounts.
The fees were last revised in 1934; and if a further revision appears desirable to secure a due balance of revenue and expenditure, this will certainly be considered in consultation with representatives of the profession.
I believe that the proposals in the Bill for a separate Scottish Record Office and for some minor improvements in procedure in the Register of Sasines will be generally acceptable, and I commend the Bill to the House as a short but useful measure. I certainly agree that it is desirable at the earliest possible moment to have some speeding up in the whole process in dealing with work in both offices so that, in one case, the legal documents, their filing, registration and indexing, can be brought up to date and, in the other case, the valuable records of Scottish history should be made available for students and research workers to bring to our notice the more detailed facts and, perhaps, some further explanation as to the history of our great and historical country.
7.15 p.m.
As this is the first item of Scottish business to be taken, may I, in one sentence, express the sorrow and sympathy of all of us at the loss of Mr. West wood, whose sincerity and knowledge we all recognised and whose presence we shall miss from our Debates.
I understood that this was to be done in a more formal way on Wednesday, but may I on behalf of myself and my colleagues express our deep sorrow at the loss of a friend and a comrade? Scotland has produced few people who have done more to help their fellow-men than Joseph Westwood and his contribution to education and to Government in our country has been far ahead of what most of us will ever possibly achieve. I heartily endorse the sympathy expressed by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) to the relatives and friends of Mr. Joseph Westwood who has now passed from us.
I was not aware that there was to be an opportunity on a later day, of expressing our sympathy and I am sure that one can say a little more when that day comes.
I think we all welcome the Bill in its present form. I welcome it both for what it does and for what it does not do. What it does is contained in Clause 1. As the right hon. Gentleman has said, it separates the offices of Keeper of the Registers and Keeper of the Historical Records of Scotland. The qualifications required by the Keeper of the Register of Sasines and the other registers include, of course, an expert knowledge of conveyancing, whereas the qualifications required by the Keeper of the Records are those of a first-rate Scottish historian.
I should like to pay tribute to the present holder of both offices, because we have been extremely lucky in the fact that he happens to combine in his own person both those qualifications, but it is extremely unlikely that we shall be equally lucky in our next appointment and this is, therefore, an appropriate time at which to make the change. The change is very necessary and more necessary than it was before the war, for another reason. Owing to the war and other circumstances, there is a great deal of leeway to make up in both departments. Even in ordinary times, I think, most people who have any knowledge of the working of these offices would agree that there is a full-time occupation for a first-class man in each of them, but that is undoubtedly the case at present because, to bring each of these departments up to a full state of efficiency, will require the devoted labours of a keen man who is in a position to devote his whole attention to the one duty.
In a sense we are all to blame for the fact that the state of the records in Scotland is what it is today. I do not intend to go into any detail; it will, I think, be sufficient if I read one sentence from the Report of Lord Macmillan's Committee, where it is said:
The rest of the Bill deals with the Register of Sasines. The House will be aware that for centuries now, Scotland has been fortunate in that every deed affecting land has had to be recorded in a public register to be fully effective. That system has proved itself through centuries to be a good system. Transactions have taken place from time immemorial on the faith of the records. So far as I am aware, in no case has that faith been misplaced. It was, therefore, with some alarm that those who knew the workings of this office learned of the recommendation of certain Treasury experts to effect a wholesale change. They had some excuse because other committees had made recommendations tending in that direction. When, however, those recommendations were made, and when the Government's original proposals were stated, there was general disapproval, and, as a result, the right hon. Gentleman very properly invited Lord Macmillan and his colleagues to investigate the matter anew.
I should like to join the right hon. Gentleman in paying a tribute to Lord Macmillan and his colleagues In these days it is something to have a report which is produced speedily and is marked by clarity, so that the layman, I believe, can understand what it is all about. As a result of that Committee's report, the original plan was, quite properly, dropped, and the right hon. Gentleman is, I think, correct in saying that the Amendments proposed with regard to the Register of Sasines in this Bill are minor but useful.
I think the Government were right to drop the wider proposals for three reasons. First of all, I think it was a bad plan in itself. Secondly, Lord Macmillan's Committee has been invited to inquire into a much wider subject, the subject of the registration of titles as distinct from the registration of deeds; and, plainly, it would be wrong to make wholesale alterations of our system of registration of deeds while the other project remains undetermined. That larger project has been a moot question for a very long time, and I think on this occasion, or until we see the report of the Committee, it would be wrong to say more about it than that I trust that all lawyers and all laymen will retain an open mind on the question until we have before us the final report of this Committee.
The third reason is, the very serious arrears which have been accumulating in the Sasines office, and it would, of course, have been impossible to combine an attempt to overtake those arrears with an attempt to alter the system. On that question of arrears I should like to expand a little what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I should like to refer again to one sentence in the Report of Lord Macmillan's Committee, in paragraph 26, which states:
On the other matter to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, which was alluded to in the Committee's Report, namely, the production of accounts and the re-assessment of appropriate charges in order that there shall be neither a profit nor a loss, I think that the assurances given are satisfactory, and that we shall see an improvement there. What the results of that re-assessment will be, nobody can tell. Therefore, I would say in conclusion that so far as the Bill is concerned I do not think any exception can be taken to any part of it, and that the only criticism that remains in my mind is, that I should have wished that the right hon. Gentleman could have proceeded a little more speedily in increasing the staff in the Register House, and with the facilities for dealing with business there, and I very much hope that if a Question is put down in the not remote future, he will be able to give us more detailed information.
7.28 p.m.
I rise to support the plea made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) concerning the staff of the Register Office. The Bill itself, of course, is a Bill of which we must all approve, but I do not think that anybody who knows the state of affairs at the Register House in Edinburgh can be satisfied with it, or with the remark made by my right hon. Friend when he said he hoped that something will be done very shortly. If we look at Appendix E of the Report of the Macmillan Committee, we see figures which are really alarming. We find that on 31st December, 1947, there were arrears of writs of 32,000, as compared to some 7,000 before the war; we find that the number of days taken in recording writs has risen from 40 before the war to 164 at the end of 1947.
This matter has become exceedingly important. It is important to most of the people engaged in this work, who are anxious, of course, that something should be done, and done speedily. I would ask the Lord Advocate whether he can say something more reassuring as to what specific steps are being taken to get the staff to deal with this particular matter. The mere dividing of the office itself will not get rid of these arrears; neither will it reduce the time taken at present for registration, unless we get more staff; and I should like to know what steps are being taken to achieve that as quickly as possible.
The second point about which I wish to speak has, I think, been answered. I take it that the recommendation of the Macmillan Committee that information regarding the financial position will be made public is accepted, and that steps will be taken to do that. Perhaps we could have that specific assurance from my right hon. and learned Friend when he replies. Otherwise, I think we ought to welcome this Bill. It is, undoubtedly, a step in the right direction, and one which makes it possible for the historical records of Scotland to be put into some order. There is no doubt that the historical records of Scotland at the present time are a disgrace, and anyone wishing to pursue any original historic inquiry has an exceedingly long and difficult task, if he is to succeed in getting the material. We want the records gathered together in a manner which will make them easily and readily available for those who wish to use them. For that reason, I think that the Bill should be welcomed by all on all sides of the House.
7.31 p.m.
This is a useful little Bill in which, I am sure, everyone who is interested in preserving the historical documents of Scotland will be keenly interested. The hon. Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Willis) has made the point about the present state of the Records Office, and I believe that everybody who has spent any time in that office in Edinburgh will know how unfavourably it compares with Somerset House in London. I know that, because I had occasion to go into a list of share holders of different companies and to make various researches—
I think that the hon. Gentleman is mistaking the office. This is a different office altogether. This deals with historical records and has nothing to do with the registration of joint stock companies.
I was only dealing with that point because I feel that it applies even more to the collection of historical documents than to other documents. It we compare, for example, the facilities which the student of history has in Scotland, with the facilities enjoyed by the student who wishes to carry out historical research in the British Museum, I believe that Scotland does not enjoy those facilities and that this will be a step forward towards ensuring that Scotland gets them.
It will also ensure that the historical records of Scotland will not meet with the same fate as the historical records of Alexandria. Some hon. Members may remember the play "Cæsar and Cleopatra," in which the historical documents of Alexandria were in danger of being destroyed by fire and an appeal was made by the librarian to Cæsar for a few Roman soldiers in order to save the documents from being burned. Cæsar was very apathetic to this request because it meant lending a few Roman soldiers, but the librarian went to him and said, "What is burning is the memory of mankind." Caesar replied laconically, "The memory of mankind; a shameful memory, let it burn." We do not agree so far as the documents of Scotland are concerned, because no one knows better than the Secretary of State that it will be necessary to rewrite the history of Scotland. The history of Scotland as portrayed at the present time is a romantic view of history. The realistic view of history can be obtained by reading through the rather prosaic, historical documents affecting the records of land, and documents of that kind.
I am sure that this Bill will be welcomed by such historians of Scotland as a former Secretary of State, who has rendered such a great service to Scotland by going through these documents in a very painstaking way. Many of us know the thoroughness of Mr. Tom Johnston as a historian, and the tremendous industry which he devoted to going through these old records in order to compile his history of the working-classes and his history of noble families; and students of Scottish history of that kind will be very pleased indeed to know that these documents are to be preserved, sifted and edited so that a picture of the economic history of land tenure in Scotland will be portrayed in a manner which will give future students of history in Scottish schools an opportunity of realising the facts in their real, historic perspective.
I hope that an attempt will be made to annotate and edit the documents in connection with Highland clearances. In Mr. Tom Johnston's history of the working-classes in Scotland, there are several pages devoted to an examination of certain documents relating to clearances. We are told that there is some historical controversy as to how many people were cleared off the land of Scotland in the Middle Ages and the centuries that followed. I hope that when these historical documents are sifted, we shall be able to get further particulars of the documents which Mr. Tom Johnston used in his history of the working-classes. For example, one of those documents relates the number of people evacuated from Perthshire and he estimates—
I think that the hon. Gentleman had better not write the history of Scotland now, and that it would be better to leave it to those who are looking after this business.
The only point which I was making was that, when all these documents are collated, we should get a much clearer and realistic history of Scotland than we have ever had before. I am sure that is the reason why the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S C. Reid) urged that there should not be a further scrimping of staff, and that money spent in this way is money well spent. If this Bill succeeds in giving us a truer picture of Scotland, in preserving these documents, and in bringing out from cupboards old dusty documents which will throw a clear light on the history of the past, this Bill will have been worth discussing for a few moments in this House.
7.38 p.m.
The particular charm of this little Bill is that it has found approval in all quarters of the House. I do not intend to say very much. As the purpose of the Bill is to facilitate the keeping of records in the respective Departments, we can quite well appreciate the approval of all those concerned. May I respectfully say to the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), that all we are concerned with, so far as the official Department is concerned, is to collect the historical records and leave it to the historians to draw the inferences which they desire from the records, once they have been collected.
There are two main causes for the leeway which has to be made up in both Departments. First, there has been in each Department in recent years a very large increase in the inflow of documents for recording purposes, both as regards the historical records and the writs to be registered. As a result of the war, and the consequent depletion of the joint staff, the work fell into arrears. When the offices were co-joined in 1928, it was contemplated that the joining of the two offices would result in efficient expedition of the work. That experiment has proved to be a failure, and I make bold to say it would have been a much greater failure had we not had a person like Dr. Angus in charge of the joint offices. I should like to echo what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said in respect of Dr. Augus who had the unique quality of combining a historian's knowledge with the knowledge of a conveyancer. At the same time, I should like to pay tribute to the present members of the staff, who have been working under very great difficulties, and who deserve tribute for maintaining the output, such as it is, and not having even greater arrears of work at the present time.
We now intend to separate the offices, and we hope that as a result of that separation, there will be a reorganisation of the departments and a consequential speeding up of the work. But even the best organisation in the world could not be effective unless we employed more staff to cope with the work. Hon. Members on both sides will appreciate that, in the first instance, we have to let the respective Keepers get into the saddle before we can make any very drastic changes, because it would be unfair to make these changes before the Keepers had an opportunity of seeing exactly what re-organisation they intend to make in their respective departments.
Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman mean that he is not going to engage any more staff?
No, I did not say anything of the kind. I was merely indicating that that was an element we had to take into consideration. We are already making provision for the employment of an additional 25 staff, who will be recruited as soon as possible. There are practical difficulties, which certainly the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead will appreciate. For instance, a certain amount of technical knowledge is required, and it takes some time to train people in the work of both these departments—more particularly in regard to the Register of Sasines.
My right hon. and learned Friend says he hopes to engage 25 additional staff. Has any estimate been made of the additional staff required to wipe off these arrears as well as to keep the records up to date.
It is not possible to say exactly how many staff are required. That is one of the points to which the new Keepers in each department will have to apply their minds when considering the re-organisation of the departments. As an immediate measure we are taking steps to employ 25 additional staff. But that, in itself, may not produce immediate results. Anyone who has gone through Register House—the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead is familiar with it; I am quite sure my hon. Friend the Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Willis) is; and I shrewdly suspect that my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire is, too—knows just how much training is required before a new member of the staff can be entrusted with the responsible part of the work. The keynotes of our system of registration of writs in Scotland are publicity and security, and security can be attained only if the high standard of personnel in that office is maintained. It would be a retrograde step if, in order to clear off these arrears, we employed people who were not fully trained, and who might make mistakes and jeopardise the whole security of our great system of registration of Writs in Scotland.
I think that the assurances which I have given of the immediate steps that are being taken, together with supplementation of that by additional staff which the respective Keepers may require when they have considered the question of reorganisation, should allay the misgivings of hon. Members on both sides of the House. In these circumstances, I feel that we should warmly welcome the Bill. The people responsible for the introduction of this Bill will not spoil the ship for a ha'p'orth of tar. It is something which has been long required, and we have given effect to that need.
I do not think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would wish me to deal with the proposed change in the Register of Sasines, because the Government did have prima facie justification for the introduction of the new proposals. The Committee which recommended the abolition of the minute book and the substitution of search sheets was a very formidable committee, headed by Lord Fleming, one of the greatest judges we have had in Scotland, and including Mr. Pitman, later Lord Pitman, another of our Senators of the College of Justice, the present Deputy Keeper of the Signet and Mr. John Prosser, one of the greatest conveyancers we have had in Scotland. It was certainly a very formidable committee which made the recommendations on which the Government proceeded when first introducing this Bill in another place. The legal profession is flexible on occasions, and when the current view seemed to be antagonistic to the proposed changes, with that flexibility which characterises us in Scotland in all our actions we acceded to the request and set up the Committee. In the light of the present Report, I do not think there can be any quarrel with the proposals of this Bill, which I warmly commend to the House.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tomorrow.—[ Mr. Collindridge. ]
Public Registers and Records (Scotland) [Money]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.—[ King's Recommendation signified. ]
[Mr. HUBERT BEAUMONT in the Chair]
Resolved:
"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the appointment of a Keeper of the Registers of Scotland and of a Keeper of the Records of Scotland and for purposes connected therewith, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as may be required for the remuneration of the said Keepers and of the officers and servants appointed or transferred under the said Act to enable the said Keepers to perform the functions vested in them."—[ Mr. Wood-burn. ]
Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.
Pasture Acreage (Restriction)
7.48 p.m.
I beg to move,
Under peacetime conditions compulsory orders ceased as a general method. Accordingly, the issue of directions to grow particular crops was discontinued after the 1947 harvest. The targets are, of course, still set, but the agricultural executive committees are asked to secure them not by compulsion, but by persuasion; in fact, by advisory work and the very substantial increase in prices which were introduced in August last year when that expansion programme was set. I believe that this policy has justified itself and that an overwhelming majority of farmers are conforming with Government policy by maintaining the requisite acreage under crops.
I ought to say that the National Farmers' Union have played a not unimportant part in securing the targets without any form of compulsion. It is also fair to say that the leaders of the National Farmers' Union are not very happy about this order I am inviting the House to pass. They feel that perhaps we might continue to appeal to farmers and depend upon their response. I can only say that I have given their arguments very careful consideration and I satisfied myself, after consulting a large number of agricultural executive committees, that this is the only possible way of safeguarding the national position.
I need hardly remind Members how difficult is the world food position at the moment. Because of that position it is fairly obvious that the acreage of wheat and potatoes will have to be much larger, than before the war, and I doubt if we dare fail with either wheat or barley. For some years to come it seems to me we shall have to ask farmers, in areas where potatoes were rarely grown before the war and where they are not too popular now, to take their share in that particular programme. I also think it will be necessary to grow increasing quantities of coarse grains and other fodder crops to feed the much larger livestock population we hope to build up during the course of the next few years.
While the great body of farmers are readily persuaded to contribute their quota to the national targets, there is a small minority who have no such scruples. In fairness to the agricultural executive committees, who as my agents have the task of dealing with them, and in fairness to farmers who are playing the game, I am satisfied that the agricultural executive committees should be given powers to compel non-co-operators to keep at least to a minimum acreage of tillage. The form that non-co-operation is likely to take is putting down to grass an unreasonably large acreage of land now being devoted to crops. It is for these reasons, therefore, that this order has been made.
The probable need for this order was foreseen when the Agriculture Act was being discussed in this House in 1947. Section 95 enables me in cases of emergency to take, subject to the approval of Parliament, very wide powers for the control of agricultural production. On the Report stage a provision was inserted—Section 95 (2, d )—permitting the Minister to invoke the full range of powers given by that Section. It gives power to prescribe the maximum area of land which may be maintained by an agricultural unit in peace-time. When we debated this on 5th June, 1947, I indicated that while I hoped it would not be necessary to take the full powers available under this Section, I should probably be asking for much more limited powers under Subsection (2, d ), and that is the order now before the House. If the order is approved, I shall forthwith delegate these powers to the agricultural executive committees, and the committees will be instructed—and this is important and I hope hon. Members will take note of it—not to use them widely, but to limit directions to cases where, after all methods of persuasion have been exhausted, the farmer or farmers concerned still refuse to recognise their obligations. Therefore, there is no intention of issuing widespread directions for the preservation of tillage, but only on the unwilling person who is not playing the game by himself, by his neighbour, or even by the nation.
This may be a suitable opportunity for me to elaborate the policy of which this order is to be the instrument. Our wartime effort, which involved the raising of the tillage acreage in England and Wales from something short of 7 million acres in 1939 to 11½ million acres in 1944, was based on what we all thought then was a short-term policy. It was hoped that after the war was over there would be a progressive reconversion back to grass. I am afraid that the situation has changed and that that is no longer possible. As I have already explained, we must continue to grow fairly large areas of wheat and potatoes, and it is equally necessary, of course, to grow crops such as barley and oats for human use and for livestock; linseed for oil and cakes for livestock and sugar beet should also be widely grown. We can no longer expect to obtain abundant supplies of feedingstuffs from abroad. While we all hope that this year's world harvest is going to be extremely good, we cannot rely on that for future years, or upon the willingness of producer countries to export or our ability to pay on anything like the scale, possible in prewar days. Inevitably, it seems to me to be prudent to produce what we can from our own soil, both for human and livestock requirements.
Our plan provides for a progressive increase in the tillage crops between now and 1951, until in the latter year the total tillage acreage is approaching the 11½ million acres we achieved in 1944. This in no way conflicts with our grassland development campaign, which is designed to increase the feeding capacity of our pasture with particular reference to winter feeding. Agriculture has a big part to play in our national survival and revival, and we cannot afford to allow any obstructive minority to reduce their tillage acreage, which is contrary to the national well-being and out of line with what the vast proportion of farmers recognise as their duty.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) lamented the fact the other day that the tillage acreage has decreased by 1 million acres since 1945, and Earl De La Warr, speaking in Hampshire recently said that if we are to achieve our expansion programme and if we are to increase our livestock population we can only do so by increasing our tillage acreage by 1 million acres. It is true that between 1945 and 1947 our tillage acreage went down by some 1,400,000 acres, but it is only fair to say that half that reduction was in 1945 when the Coalition were in office. There has been a fall of another 700,000 acres during 1946–47, which only goes to show that once the fall starts it takes a great deal of stopping. There are still a few farmers who would prefer to farm with a dog and a stick, but, as Members in all parts of the House will readily recognise, that is not the kind of farming that the nation can afford in these circumstances.
I shall assume for once that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington and Earl De La Warr were somewhere near the mark, and that we must preserve and increase our tillage acreage if we are to achieve our expansion programme. I have already explained that whatever the tillage acreage may be we now no longer issue cropping directions to any farmer. We expect each farmer to play his part in achieving our national target and, on the whole, we leave the farmer to make the best use of his own land in the light of his own experience.
This is a modest order, designed exclusively to reach about 11½ million acres by 1951, and for which we are paying agricultural prices. I am sure that the vast proportion of willing farmers will appreciate it, and that only a small minority of unwilling, non-co-operative, farmers will be hostile to it. I do not think there are any politics in this; it is a question of whether, in these times of economic stress, we shall make the best use of our own land. If assent is given to that proposition, then it seems to me that we cannot afford to allow the majority to be tormented by what I hope is a very small minority. In commending this Order to the House, I hope it will receive unanimous assent.
8.3 p.m.
In spite of the Minister's hope that this order would commend itself to every Member of the House, I must say at once, quite frankly, that it does not commend itself to me. The right hon. Gentleman put forward a great many quite unimpeachable observations, with which I agree, about the need for growing as much as possible in this country. I think he anticipated some of the things we shall be debating tomorrow and, therefore, I will not go into the figures or the arguments he used except to say that we are all agreed, particularly in view of the changed economic situation of the last 18 months, that it is vitally important for us to grow all we can ourselves. That is agreed national policy.
But the question we have to discuss tonight is whether this order is the best method of achieving that purpose? Everybody—no, I will not say "everybody" when I think of some of the expressions used by some of the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues; I will say the most sensible people in the country object to being ordered about by directions. When we discussed the Agriculture Bill last year the right hon. Gentleman, in what was then Clause 92, proposed to take powers to give directions, in peacetime, to the farmer. When, at the first stage of our discussions, we took grave objection to that proposal it was said that it would be invoked only in extreme conditions of national danger—in what was called either the 1914 or 1939 position. That was what was envisaged, as can be seen from a perusal of the proceedings in Committee.
Afterwards, however, the argument slightly changed. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had powers to do this under existing legislation, under the Supplies and Services Act, as extended, but would prefer to transfer those powers, so to speak, from that Act into the Agriculture Bill. He said he was doing that partly for the sake of tidiness, and that if the powers had to be invoked he would invoke them under the procedure we are now adopting, under the affirmative Resolution procedure proposed by the Government, instead of the negative procedure.
Even then, the right hon. Gentleman made it clear that the powers would be used only in times of really serious emergency. That is why, when the right hon. Gentleman spoke tonight, I was straining my ears to catch the grounds on which he is putting this order before the House. Although we are aware that, in general, the international background and the national economic background are extremely serious today, that is not enough for this argument. The right hon. Gentleman's argument was that something drastic required to be done. I thought that if the right hon. Gentleman intended to stand on that leg he would emphasise, once again, with all the solemnity which is at his disposal, the words so often repeated in this House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer about our economic situation. He did not. He said, "Yes, the situation is grave, but the real reason for this is not because the great bulk of farmers have not realised the gravity of the situation, and have not been doing their best to meet the difficulties of the day, but because a very small minority do not play the game."
That is the Labour Party and the Labour Government all over again—the big instrument for the little necessity, instead of, as we so often suggest, trusting people to do the job. Incidentally, in these days, as the right hon. Gentleman said, it is not such an unprofitable job. This action of the Government is typical of what happened last week, when my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) asked the Minister of Food whether the Government would abolish bread rationing. The reply was to the effect that although it was not necessary now, the machinery must be kept going in case it was wanted later. What is being done by this order is typical of that mentality. Just because there is only a small minority of people who are not playing the game this machinery must be maintained; the Government are making a terrible psychological blunder from which the whole farming community, who have done everything they can to increase production, as was asked for by the Government last year, will suffer.
I would refer the House to HANSARD of 21st June, when the Minister was asked questions on this matter. The right hon. Gentleman said:
The right hon. and gallant Gentleman seems completely to ignore that I told the House that the order is necessary not only because there are a minority of non-co-operators, but also that the tillage acreage has in three years been reduced to 1,400,000 acres, and that it was not stupid to try to stop it, despite its psychological reactions.
That is where we have to agree to differ. By other methods and the continuance of the voluntary appeal we should try to get the general co-operation of the farming community. The right hon. Gentleman is more likely to get results that way than by bringing in directions, which he himself agrees are only required to cover a small minority. He has admitted that only a small minority—[ Interruption. ] The hon. Gentleman can make a speech in his own time, but at the moment we do not want a duet. The House must not overlook the full effect of the 1947 Agriculture Act where, if there is any possibility of the likelihood or consideration that the rules of good husbandry are not being carried out, the machinery of supervision can come in.
No. Surely the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is not so unaware of the contents of the Act that he does not know that a farmer may put more land under grass than need be, and still he would not necessarily come under the supervision machinery of the Agriculture Act.
That is opening a very big door, which some of my hon. Friends are obviously going to enter if that is going to be the argument of the Minister. Surely we are not in the very parlous condition that we have got to have in peace-time powers of direction which are admittedly against the rules of good husbandry throughout the country. I had not appreciated that we were in such a parlous condition. That, of course, alters the basis of the argument. I was assuming we were going to try to get maximum production out of our soil consistent with the maintenance of the fertility of the soil, and that we were not going to put all that in danger, as was inevitably done in certain years during the war.
I thought the general ideas of good husbandly were going to be carried forward. But if we are going to do everything without considering that side of the argument, we are in a very dangerous national condition, because the Minister must in the long run agree that, whatever this recalcitrant minority does, generally speaking it is the farmer who knows what is best to do with his own land. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would agree to that proposition, but if he is not going to agree to it I do not know where we shall get in this argument.
It is quite a monstrous thing to bring this great weapon of direction into force for what is admitted to be a comparatively small minority. We do not know what is the size of the minority and we cannot ask the right hon. Gentleman because nobody could possibly say what is a small minority. I suppose he thinks it is worth doing, but I should have thought it was not worth doing in view of the feelings of reluctance and hostility which are bound to rise in the minds of so many farmers in this country, because of the psychological error.
How is this going to be decided? Is the Minister going to say, "There is to be a certain proportion which will apply to each county, when there will be a rule of thumb measure for a percentage of that proportion to be applied to everyone, who will have to do that certain proportion on his land"? Is that not going to endanger the whole structure—I am not sure it is not in some danger at the moment—of the agricultural executive committees, who I thought generally speaking were to be known as the friends and advisers of the farmer and not agents for the orders of the right hon. Gentleman. I thought we had got away from that idea—at least I had hoped so, but this Government have always to go back to the gentleman in Whitehall, who knows best according to them. Hon. Members opposite should read the book written by the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, and they will find that the gentleman from Whitehall knows better even than a housewife, what is good for everybody.
Unless an emergency is in operation, this sort of idea is far more serious than anything of which the right hon. Gentleman has give us any indication, and in doing this I am afraid he will shake the confidence of the agricultural community in himself—I do not much mind about that; let it be shaken—and also their confidence in the outlook of the House of Commons, because for the time being he is the spokesman of this House in agricultural matters. We would prefer to leave the matter without these orders and directions. The right hon. Gentleman has made a very great mistake, and by bringing this order before this House tonight he has, in fact, whatever he may say, shown his lack of confidence in the farming community.
indicated dissent.
That is the only deduction I can make from the explanation given by the right hon. Gentleman.
The right hon. and gallant Gentleman could not have been listening.
I nearly burst my ear drums listening, but I did not find any adequate reason for bringing this proposal forward. The right hon. Gentleman has made a mistake, and has shown that he has not full confidence in the farmers and thinks that they will not respond to any appeal that is made.
8.20 p.m.
I always try to approach anything in connection with agriculture from a severely practical point of view. Listening to the right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) I cannot help thinking he has completely forgotten the conditions that exist in the country. My right hon. Friend has made it quite clear that the vast majority of the farmers in this country are carrying out the desired policy of the Government, but there are some who are anxious to grow more grass and less other crops than is in the national interest today. What is the affect of that? We have all stated on both sides of the House that what we want is a balanced agriculture, that is to say with stock, crops and grass properly balanced. If the acreage of grass is allowed to increase greater than is necessary for the stock on the farms, what happens? The farmers who are anxious to buy store cattle for feeding on their grass have to pay a greater price for those store cattle that are available. The result is that this year the prices of store cattle are very much higher than the prices were last year. From the farmers' point of view it is against the best interests of agriculture that such unbalance should take place.
On the other hand, we want to see an increase in the amount of poultry and pigs in the country. They are increasing, but if we have not grown in this country sufficient feedingstuffs for them we shall have to go abroad to buy. What will be the result? The bigger our demand upon Argentina and other countries for feeding-stuffs, the higher prices they ask. Therefore, from that point of view, it is in the best interests of agriculture that these matters should be kept in balance, and that the pigs and poultry we have should be fed as far as possible on food grown here. Who can gainsay that? If some farmers are not growing their proportion of wheat, barley or linseed, which are so urgently necessary to rear the calves that we are asking farmers to rear in this country, the whole thing can get out of balance.
From a practical point of view it is essential that immediate steps should be taken, not merely to arrest the increasing acreage of grass and the declining acreage of tillage, but to reverse the process so that we may, as quickly as possible, climb to an acreage of crops both for human and animal feeding equal to that of the peak year 1944. Perhaps we might even climb to a greater acreage than that. As I see it, that is the most important step envisaged in the order. In looking around the country at the present time we all know that farmers are not all of the same class and their farms are not all in the same condition. If there is one thing which is out of place in the country at the present time it is poor grassland, which is not producing grass sufficient for the urgency of the present situation.
Therefore, if, through his county committees, the Minister makes use of the power of reducing as rapidly as possible the acreage of poor grassland and getting it cultivated, surely that is all to the good? After all, what brings more food out of the soil than crops of potatoes, sugar beet or wheat? Those are the great food-producing crops for animals or stock. We cannot possibly have too great an acreage of such crops. If the individual farmer will try to look at this problem from the national point of view, and everyone is willing to play his part in planning his farm in the national interest, there will obvously be no need for the order, but we know—and it does not matter what occupation we look at, farming or any other—that there are some who put their own individual considerations before the national interest in time of peace. If we can prevent that, and if we can get all the farmers of the country to work along the lines that have been indicated as the national policy, as stated by my right hon. Friend time after time, with the agreement of hon. Members in all parts of the House, it will be in the best interest that that should be so.
I think that all good farmers will welcome this order. I should think that my right hon. Friend must have taken advice from the fanning community, as represented on the county agricultural executive committees. I should think they have recommended this order. If my right hon. Friend has come to this House with such an order without having consulted them, he will have made a very foolish mistake, and the adjectives used by the right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough would be justified. If my right hon. Friend, having consulted those on the committees who now represent every aspect and interest in agriculture, they recommend an order like this, we should approve it as in the best interests of British agriculture.
8.25 p.m.
I rise to oppose the Motion, rather more in sorrow than in anger. I would take up the point made by the hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mr. Dye) about the shortage of store cattle. I do not think he is right—or possibly he is putting far too much weight upon the question of grassland. One of the causes of the increase in prices of store cattle is the shortage of store cattle. There is a great deal more grass now than there was three years ago, but I think that increase has had very little effect on the prices. I have not checked this, but I think that if the hon. Member will look up the prices for the periods and the seasons he may well find that the main increase in the price of store cattle is in the autumn and not in the spring.
Has the hon. Gentleman had to go to market to buy store cattle recently, as I have?
I am wise. I grow my own. I keep a graph of the prices of store cattle. I have not got it with me and I am speaking only from recollection. I may not be exactly accurate. What the Minister is really saying to the farmers of the country is this: "You have done very well in the past, but we are not sure that you are going to do so well in the future." That is what he implies, and it is to that I and my friends in the farming community object. He says: "We don't trust them." What gets under the skin of the farming community more than anything else is that the Minister who has put through the Agriculture Act says: "We don't trust you." That is a very serious thing to say to that part of the community which has deserved very well of the country in the past.
Does the hon. Gentleman know that agricultural co-operation, whether it has been the marketing boards or anything else, has always been dependent upon a power to coerce the minority? If we allow black- legs, even though very few in number, to get away with it, the other people will not co-operate. That is why we have marketing schemes.
Those controls were imposed by consent of public opinion in the agricultural community. We could get away with sanctions in war-time because we had farming public opinion behind us. That is the reason why we got away with it. Why cannot these sanctions be used now? Why cannot the same sanction of public opinion be used now as was used before? The Minister is using a legislative sanction and not the sanction of public opinion. What I fear the Minister is admitting by implication is that the committee system, which he, I and all of us set up, is not working today and cannot be made to work.
Does the hon. Member want to suggest that it was simply the sanction of public opinion that got us our targets during war-time? Surely, the position was so near to the wall that the hon. Member must know that directions were given to every farmer in the land, almost for every field on their farms, and that in 1948—unless the hon. Member may have forgotten again—no directions are being given to any farmer; we are relying upon his honourable response, with the single exception of preserving the tillage acreage.
Exactly. During the war the Government of the day—there happened to be a very good Minister—were able to get away with this sanction of directions and of dispossession because the Minister had the public opinion in the farming community behind him. Without public opinion there would not have been the same acquiescence in those directions. That is the point I am trying to bring the Minister and the House to realise because I cannot help feeling that the Minister thinks that the committees cannot impose these sanctions today. That is very serious if it is true; if it is, it bears out an impression which is growing amongst a number of farmers that the committees are being run not by the members, but by officials.
This order is a very serious error. It certainly has, and will further, upset the industry. I was hoping today that the Minister would make his case on the basis of some new facts with which we are not familiar. I have been looking up the grass figures for the past three years and I wish the Minister had been able to give us the figures of the June, 1948, Return for permanent and temporary grass. I find that, adding the temporary and permanent grass figures together, we have about 880,000 acres more under grass than at 4th June, 1945. The Minister knows very well the reasons for this. Much land is "corn tired."
The hon. Member had better tell the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington.
Let the Minister disclose the facts. I am not arguing from a political point of view. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I know hon. Members opposite always dislike being presented with the facts. That hurts their theoretical vanity more than does anything else. The Minister knows that a great deal of land is "corn tired" and that a great deal is infested with eelworm and, therefore, cannot grow potatoes and sugar beet. Another factor which must be borne in mind is that farmers this year—and certainly they will be in the future—are extremely worried about labour for harvesting the extra crops which they are growing. German prisoners of war have gone. Farmers are not confident that labour will be available. I am expressing not my own opinion, but one which is widely held throughout the whole of the country.
There is a third reason, one which too many people who have not studied the facts are inclined to overlook. One does not necessarily get more feeding value out of a tillage crop rather than out of grass. Those are facts which the Minister may have read in a certain scientific farming paper read to the Farmers' Club some months ago; for every acre devoted to the growing of grass, which is then dried, one can obtain as much feeding value in protein and starch as in three acres of oats.
If we have the driers.
We have the driers in the country. The general argument shows that one does not necessarily get a higher value from the tillage acreage.
It is the tillage area.
No, it is not. Evidently the hon. and learned Member has not looked up the statistical data, because he will find that tillage acreage is divided into tillage acreage under crops, and tillage acreage under temporary grass. The figures I gave at the beginning of my speech were for temporary and permanent grass together, which is quite separate from the tillage acreage under crops. I am merely stating the fact that it must not be considered that one can get more feeding value out of a tillage acreage under a crop than under grass. One may get an even higher value under grass.
At Question time today the Minister of Agriculture answered a Question to the effect that there was now treble the amount of silage being made from grass as in some previous period; it may have been last year, or a little earlier. There is a way in which we can increase the feeding value of an acre of grassland. Probably we would get a much higher feeding value from an acre of grass put into a silo and preserved than from merely grazing. There is a great increase in silage acreage. That is shown in the increase in the total grass areas of the country.
The Minister has certainly let the light into the future today for the first time and we are very glad of it. He gave an indication, of which none of us knew before, that he intended greatly to increase the tillage acreage over the next two or three years, that we are going to return to 11½ million acres by 1951. The cropping targets have been issued and what he requires to do is to tell the industry, as he is telling them now, what to do and to give them the tools with which to get on with the job.
But that still leaves unaccounted for the unwilling farmer, of whom the Minister has been talking. I entirely fail to understand what is wrong with Part II of the Agriculture Act. Like my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) I have been studying Part II of the Act to see whether it could be used for doing exactly the things the Minister wants to do. I cannot see why the Minister cannot use Section 11, the operative words of which are: if he is
8.41 p.m.
I shall not detain the House long, but it is desirable that someone from this side of the House should say something to correct what has just been said by the hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. York). Let me take the two last points he made. First, he says that it is possible to put under supervision a farmer who is failing to maintain a sufficient amount of grass.
I did not say that.
The hon. Member gave me the impression that he did—[ Interruption ]—of course, it was the opposite way round, that he was growing too much grass. That is not possible. A farmer cannot be put under supervision unless he is farming badly, but it may very well be that the farmer is farming excellently but is not willing to cooperate with the Minister. That is the answer to that point.
The hon. Member went on to argue about the relative merits of silage or dried grass compared with crops. I do not intend to differ from that very strongly although I think he will admit that there is a great deal of difference between the actual protein content of silage and dried grass because the latter has a much higher protein content than has the former, if it is properly made. I expect that tomorrow hon. Members opposite will make the point, "Why can we not have more poultry and more pigs?" Will the hon. Member feed poultry and pigs with dried grass? Will he feed them with silage? Of course he will not do anything of the kind.
Finally, I wish to turn to the clever speech made by the right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank). He tried to make out that this was a very large measure; at one moment he particularly emphasised that. I should like to read to the hon. and gallant Gentleman the explanatory note at the bottom of this order which says that under Section 95 of the Agriculture Act the Minister has power to give directions:
8.44 p.m.
I speak as an agricultural Member. I dislike this order for the reasons which have been so ably adduced by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) and reinforced by my hon. Friend the Member for Ripon (Mr. York). I believe that the long term salvation of British agriculture lies in normal and peaceful times, in increasing our livestock of all kinds and relying upon imports for our major supplies of cereals and of feedingstuffs. But, although I dislike this order, I do not propose to speak or vote in opposition to it, because I believe that the international situation has so deteriorated and has become so serious that no sane man can shut his eyes to the possibility of war between the Western Allies and Soviet Russia.
Oh.
The hon. Member may say "Oh," but I think it is high time that somebody should have the courage to say it, and say it in this place. Bearing that grave fact in the forefront of my mind, I personally am not disposed to vote against this order.
8.46 p.m.
There seems to be a difference of opinion on the Benches opposite. One voice seems to say that we do not need to have so much tillage, the other that we should have it but that we are not setting about it in the right way. The right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) said he fully agreed with the need to increase our tillage and reduce the grass, or so I understood him, while the hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. York) said that, after all, grass was just as good as tillage, or something to that effect. I think, in any case, the hon. Member for Ripon did have this advantage, that he fully believed the argument he was putting forward, whereas I find it very difficult to think that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman really believes in his own argument—
On a point of Order. Surely, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, an hon. Member is not permitted by the general rules of this House to make such remarks about other speeches.
I do not think that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is accused of a deliberate misstatement, or anything of that sort.
Almost in terms, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
Surely, the only point which was made, was that no sane man could have believed the argument.
It is always a pleasure to me to listen to the right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough, especially when he is batting on a particularly difficult wicket. Perhaps I went a little too far in what I said, but I would say this, at any rate, that no one is better at building up, in the most solemn and portentous tone, what sound like the most weighty of arguments, based on the slenderest possible foundation.
The right hon. and gallant Member made a great point of the fact that the agricultural committees could insist on good husbandry. Surely he also knows what has already been pointed out, that the matter in question is not just the broad issue of good husbandry. It is the issue of whether a farmer is going to snatch a quick profit because he finds it profitable for the time being to let down some of his tillage to grass, or whether, in the long-term interest of the nation, he is going to co-operate and plough up a bit more land. That is the real issue, and the agricultural committee could not possibly put him down as a bad husbandman just because he does try to snatch that profit.
The right hon. and gallant Gentleman also said that farmers would lose confidence. I should say that it is just the other way round. What can be more discouraging for a farmer who is playing the game, and who resists the temptation to snatch a quick profit by non-co-operation, than to see his neighbour getting away with it? This is designed just for that very purpose, to stop the man here and there from getting away with it.
Great emphasis was laid again by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman on the small minority which my right hon. Friend mentioned. It is a small minority, but surely we all know how quickly a small minority can infect a much larger number simply through the process I have described. One sees another getting away with something which is profitable, and he says, "If others are not going to play the game, why should I?" This element of compulsion which is being introduced will encourage the vast majority of farmers who are playing the game. They know that the Government are taking steps to see that people who will not cooperate are obliged to do so when hitherto they have not. I hope that the House will pay no attention to the elaborate arguments of hon. Members opposite which are based on no foundation, and that instead will support this very wise measure.
8.50 p.m.
I support my hon. and right hon. Friends who oppose this order. I agree with hon. Members on both sides of the House that there is reason for anxiety at the moment in view of the serious food shortage not only in this country but in the world, and in view of the dollar shortage. There is real anxiety about the amount of land which is being turned over to grass for animal farming. There is also some necessity for the Government to take action to stop this process from going very much further. I differ from the Government and hon. Members opposite only on the method by which the problem should be met. I consider that by this order the Government are adopting a thoroughly lazy and retrograde method in which to try to solve the difficulty. It is lazy to tackle the problem simply by allowing someone in Whitehall to decree the amount of arable land and the amount of grassland that there shall be, and then for action to be taken further down the scale by someone in a county agricultural executive office decreeing the amount of arable and pasture land which there shall be on every farm in the country without even inspecting the farms properly and without knowledge of the method of farming carried out or of the peculiarities of the land.
It is also retrograde because, as those who served on the Standing Committee which considered the Agriculture Act of 1947 realise, the great hope of success for that Act was that confidence and co-operation existed between the county agricultural executive committees and the farmers. I fear that once we start introducing direction again, even in a limited form, it will drive the farmers and the executive committees further apart and will undo much of the good which has been done since that Act was approved.
Will the hon. Member meet my argument that the farmer who plays the game will feel discouraged rather than encouraged when he sees others getting away with something?
As the hon. and gallant Member knows, probably no two agriculturists agree on the various questions of how to maintain fertility of the soil, and this, that and the other. There are bound to be different views. I intend to show that there is another method of approaching the problem than that of issuing of arbitrary directions that certain grass shall be ploughed up or that certain fields should not be reseeded. I will deal with that point in more detail later. Most of us on this side of the House would prefer in approaching this problem the method of the price incentive—the carrot rather than the stick—to manipulate and change the price schedule to encourage growing of certain crops, such as potatoes, wheat or whatever it may be.
Here, again, one has to admit that the price incentive is not the effective incentive which it used to be in days gone by, and here I differ with the hon. and gallant Member for Sudbury (Lieut.-Colonel Hamilton). We have to realise that, in these days of high Government expenditure and high taxation, shortages of machinery, labour, housing and one thing and another, even if one gets a better price and a little more profit by growing certain crops, if the Government are going to take it back, the additional work involved is not always worth while. Many people think so. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is not right in thinking that people are always governed by the consideration of how much profit they can make. Rather are they governed by questions of housing and machinery, which may discourage them from going back to arable farming.
I think that there is another method by which we can approach this problem. The Minister, from the remarks he has made already, seemed to think that this method does not offer an alternative, but I would ask him what has happened to the cropping programme. Certainly, in my county, we still have to submit a cropping programme for approval by the agricultural executive committee. I understand that, in many counties, that has gone by the board. Could we not once again make the farmers submit their cropping programmes to the committee? I spent my morning in filling up my own, and these programmes are sent up to, and have to be approved by, the local officer of the committee, who can see at once how much land is to be reseeded and what is going to be done with every acre and every field on the farm. If he does not approve, the farmer can ring him on the telephone and get him to come over and talk about it.
I think we are likely to get far better results from conversations like that with an official who knows what is the target required, than by issuing some peremptory order. I admit that, even after discussion, certain farmers may prove obdurate about it, but I would rather see the weapon of the supervision order used. The Minister has said that it cannot be used, or that he has not got the power to use it. I should have thought that he would have found ways and means of doing it, because it is far better to do it in that way than by issuing some peremptory order or decree that a certain percentage of a particular farm must be under grass.
I ask the Minister to consider this question again. Psychologically, I think this order will have a bad effect. Now that we have passed the Agriculture Act with so much good faith, probably for the first time, on both sides of the industry, it would be far better to go forward in the spirit of consultation between the officers of the Minister and the individual farmers, and then, if the Ministry cannot get what they want, to use the supervision method rather than that of positive direction.
8.59 p.m.
I am sure that every hon. Member on this side of the House will have been amazed to find hon. Members of the party opposite taking the view which they have done this evening. I am quite sure, after listening to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman who opened this Debate, that he could not have believed what he was saying, and that we have here once again the spectacle of the party opposite being ready to play party politics, even at the expense of the nation's food. The right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) said that in the long run we should do better by not carrying out this policy. I would remind him that there is no long-term salvation without short-term survival, and it is necessary for us to take the short view as well as the long view in dealing with the agricultural position. I am amazed that the party opposite should suggest the machinery of supervision as a substitute for the simple proposals of the Minister of Agriculture. The machinery of supervision would take many more civil servants, much more time and more manpower to operate, and would not have the same effective result as the simple proposals of the Minister.
In the course of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's speech he said that this was a comparatively small matter affecting a comparatively small number of people in the farming community. After listening to the Minister and hearing the explanation that 1,400,000 acres of arable land had been put down to grass, I should like to know what the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would consider as a large matter in the present circumstances of the nation. This is a very serious matter, and these proposals are the simple way of dealing with the situation. In view of the patriotic action that the Labour Party took on almost every occasion in the past when a vital matter came before us, it is most regrettable that today the Opposition are not with us in telling the farming community that this is a wise and sensible way of increasing the nation's food supply and that it has the full support of this House.
I congratulate one hon. Member opposite who had the courage to say that in the circumstances in which the country is placed he intends to ignore the official advice of his leaders and will not oppose the Government on this very necessary Measure.
9.3 p.m.
The hon. Member for Eccles (Mr. Proctor) said that he was amazed at the opinions expressed from this side of the House. We on this side have ceased to be surprised by any opinions expressed by hon. Members on the Government side with regard to agriculture. I would take this opportunity of reminding hon. Members opposite that, on the whole, the Agriculture Act, 1947, was welcomed by those who sit on this side of the House and, indeed, by agriculturalists generally, if for no other reason than that it gave a degree of permanency to arrangements which had been in operation for a number of years.
We were a little apprehensive about two points. One was the vagueness of Section 1. The other matter on which Members on this side expressed apprehension was that the Minister was permitted by that Measure to take powers to interfere with the agricultural industry in a number of ways. The Minister was most persuasive and conciliatory in Committee. He frequently assured the Committee that it was not his intention to use unfairly or in too great a hurry the powers which he could take under the various Clauses of the Bill, as it then was. Nevertheless, the fear that the Ministry might start once again to direct agriculture in a wholesale way has remained, certainly among the farmers and the farm workers.
I think it is for that reason—certainly it is in my case—that we are sorry the Minister has decided to introduce this order. In his speech this evening I think he said it would give him power to ask farmers to increase their tillage acreage. Of course, he is not taking powers to ask them to do anything; he is taking powers to order them to do something. Moreover, he intends to give orders, or I suppose he intends to give orders, and behind his orders there will be some pretty severe sanctions in the way of penalties. It is a pity that the Minister should have seen fit to ask the House to approve this order at this juncture.
I understood, as I think the right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) understood, that the Minister of Agriculture said during his opening speech that what had persuaded him to introduce this order was the fear that a small minority of farmers might farm in the wrong way. Surely the Minister might have waited until he had some concrete proof that there were farmers who intended to behave badly. I want to be fair to the right hon. Gentleman; I understood him to say, during an interruption, that there were, in fact, a number of farmers who were not farming in accordance with his views. I hope the hon. Gentleman who is to wind up this Debate will make the position quite clear in this respect. Are there or are there not a large number of cases in which farmers are putting land back to grass?
We know all about the number of acres which have gone back to grass since 1945, but if that is the problem which is being dealt with by this order, why was the order not introduced a year ago? As I understood it, the problem must have arisen during the last 12 months and since the Royal Assent was given to the Act of 1947. If the Minister could show over the next few months that this is a real problem, a problem of serious magnitude, I feel certain that on this side of the House an order such as this would receive most careful consideration. Such is the feeling today in the agricultural community, which is apprehensive, and as it appears, rightly apprehensive—our farmers and farm workers are apprehensive of interference from the Ministry of Agriculture—that I sincerely believe the introduction of this order now can do nothing but harm and will not have the effect for which the Minister hopes.
9.8 p.m.
The hon. and gallant Member for Barkston Ash (Colonel Ropner) asked why this order had not been introduced a year ago. Surely the answer is that it was because the Minister wished to try out the voluntary system which had the full approval of hon. Members opposite at the time; and the reason why the order is necessary now is that there is a very real danger that the voluntary system will break down and the tillage acreage will fall still further. I should have thought the danger was just as real to hon. Members opposite.
Those on this side who represent agricultural constituencies must know that some of the best farmers are constantly complaining that some of their neighbours, much less efficient, do not provide the co-operation asked for by the Minister and, thereby, sometimes gain an unfair advantage. In any case, their action jeopardises the whole spirit of the voluntary movement. That is the case and it is quite widespread over large areas, and the best farmers, who are co-operating in the voluntary system, are undoubtedly going to say, "Very well; we cannot get powers to see that the minority do play the game, so we ourselves will not go on any longer." Thus the whole system will collapse. That surely is the real reason for the order.
It seems to me that we have two entirely contradictory views put forward by hon. Members opposite, and I am not sure what is their reason for opposing the Motion. The noble Lord the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Lord Willoughby de Eresby) said he thought we should do the job that needs to be done by restoring the price incentive. One could argue at length on that. There are great difficulties in dealing with animal crops because of the difference of yields, and the noble Lord did not say whether the prices should be based on acreage payments or otherwise. As against that, other hon. Members, including the right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) have taken a quite different point of view, saying that they would like to see use made of Part II of the Agriculture Act, and that the farmers who do not comply should be put under supervision. That is a far more sweeping and far harsher way of direction than that proposed by the order.
If that is the point of view of hon. Members opposite, it is only right that the farmers should be aware of the methods hon. Gentlemen opposite propose. It is quite clear to everybody that there is more than one way of farming a piece of land well. To invoke Part II of the Act against a man who does not comply with a voluntary effort to raise tillage and say that, ipso facto, that is bad husbandry, seems to me to be, as it were, using a bludgeon, too weighty a means of correcting a comparatively slight complaint. If that is the view of hon. Members opposite I hope we shall have it made quite clear.
Several hon. Members opposite spoke of the bad psychological effects of this order, and the noble Lord said that he was afraid it might be enforced by people who did not visit the farms, by officials, and so on, while the hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. York) implied that the county committees were in any case run by officials. If the hon. Member for Ripon is right, and the county committees are run by their officials in Yorkshire, I can only say that the farmers of Yorkshire are a pretty weak-kneed lot. In my area the farmers make sure that the officials do what they think is right. The powers of the committees are administered by farmers and farmworkers and landowners, and it is nonsense to say that the people administering the order do not visit the farms and will not take the trouble to see that, if the order is enforced on a particular farmer, the enforcement is fully justified. I hope we shall be given better reasons by the opposition for opposing the order, or else that they will change their minds and support it.
9.13 p.m.
I have listened carefully to the whole of this Debate. At the beginning I had not quite made up my mind whether to support the Motion or not. I was prejudiced against the order to begin with, but I have not heard any really serious alternative put forward to deal with the short-term problem of arresting the decline of tillage. I do not think that there is any short-term alternative. I was prejudiced against the order because of certain things the Minister of Agriculture has seemed to be countenancing in my part of the country. I have often been somewhat bewildered and baffled because so much land which is producing food on a good scale, seems to be taken easily for military training purposes. Only recently the Ministry has been exercising purely nominal control, so it appears, over the amount of land taken for forestry in relation to the amount of agricultural land. I have been wondering where all these things fit in; whether we really have a broad conception of how to go about the job of producing more food at home. I think that the paramount justification for the order remains—that we have to produce the largest amount of food possible at home—and I do not think that the fact that the Ministry is failing in certain directions should prevent me from giving my blessing to a step designed to prevent a decline in tillage land.
I was impressed by what the Minister said, and I thought that he approached this matter in a very fair way. He will delegate these powers to the county agricultural executive committees, and I hope that he will not force his will, or the will of any of his Ministry's officials, on the county committees in the operation of the order. These new committees are on trial, and it is important that they should not be regarded as a set of complete "yes-men" of the Minister of Agriculture. He should not treat them as his agents, but should pay particular heed to them at all times. I think that it is also a fair consideration that the committees will not be directed to use these powers widely; that the use will be limited only to exceptional cases; and, having regard to that, I think that it is in the interests of the good farmer that, ultimately, in exceptional cases the farmer who does not conform should be made to come into line with national policy.
Therefore I give a reluctant approval to this order. I think that its operation must be watched closely, and that it must not be taken as a substitute for a radical approach to the problems of agriculture, which has not yet been taken since the passing of the Agriculture Act but as a short-term policy for dealing with an urgent problem. Having regard to the moderation of the powers for which the Minister has asked, and the assurance of moderation in their use, I think that this House should give its consent to the order.
9.18 p.m.
The hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Emrys Roberts) was rather typical of his Party. One was not quite sure whether he was blowing hot or cold. I hope that I shall be able to show that we, on this side of the House, have been consistent with regard to our opinion on this direction of cropping. During the passage of the Bill through Standing Committee, we opposed this direction of cropping, and it was only after the Minister of Agriculture had assured us that it would only be used in cases of emergency that we resolved not to vote against it. Let me remind the House of what the Minister said.
We are not here to defend the man who wants to farm, as the Minister said, with a dog and a stick. But the steps which the Minister is taking to deal with that man are rather like the steps which the Chancellor of the Exchequer took in order to catch the 1 per cent, making big profits on a small acreage of land, when he put 200,000 farmers to the expense of keeping books.
Why not?
The Minister has got power to put under supervision a farmer who is not farming according to the rules of good husbandry; and if the farmer does not do his job properly the Minister has power to put him out. I say, as a onetime tenant farmer, if a man is not farming his land in accordance with the rules of good husbandry he should make way for some of the young men and women wating on the doorstep of the industry for farms.
The Minister said that he was taking these steps because of the tremendous drop in the arable acreage. What else can be expected from the wobbling of the Government, who cannot make up their minds whether the emphasis should be on livestock and livestock products or on arable acreage? We were told 12 months ago that the emphasis was to be on livestock and livestock products, and we were assured by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House that particular steps were to be taken to buy feedingstuffs so that the emphasis should be on livestock. What is the result? The Minister of Food buys produce and will not buy feeding-stuffs, so that now the Minister of Agriculture has to start to grow coarse grams in this country.
As my noble Friend the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Lord Willoughby de Eresby) said, price incentives are needed to encourage production; if wheat and coarse grains are wanted, then make it worth while growing them. What is the present position? The Minister of Food compels farmers to sell wheat and barley for human consumption, and does not buy bread grains from abroad, as he used to do. We maintain that if the Minister of Agriculture wants this production he must get his colleague to support him by buying feedingstuffs, for then he will not need to issue direction orders.
If there is a small minority not doing the job properly, it should be made to do it properly. I am sure that the majority of farmers in this country will view the steps which the Minister is taking today with very grave suspicion and regret. They do not know where they are; one minute it is one thing, and the next it is something entirely different. Although the Minister says he consulted the leaders of the National Farmers' Union, I am sure the majority of our farmers will wholly condemn this order.
9.24 p.m.
In view of the inquiries we have had from hon. Members opposite as to whether there is an emergency, it would seem that they have never heard of our present emergency. The right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) begged the Minister to tell him whether there was an emergency. He reminds me of the old gentleman who used to play the piano in a brothel and never had the slightest suspicion of what was going on upstairs. We are faced without doubt with the gravest situation that this country has faced and we have to build up our supplies. During the Ministry of Food Debate last week we heard about the present world shortage of grain and that the importation of grain and its conversion into meat here cost about three times as much as if the meat had been imported. In circumstances of that sort surely we have to produce the grain here and, as the Minister said, we should do it by voluntary co-operation and by getting the farmers to co-operate in a cropping policy.
However, there is one lesson which we have all learned with regard to agricultural co-operation and that is that co-operation will never be got unless and until there are means of coercing the recalcitrant minority. That is the reason why we had all the Agriculture Marketing Acts. Hops are an example. I think 98 per cent, of the hop-growers went in for voluntary co-operation for the marketing of hops but, speaking again from memory, within a period of three years a recalcitrant 4 per cent, had broken down the whole system of co-operation. That always happens when people get together to work for the benefit of the community as a whole, and they will only do it so long as Jones is not allowed to profit by doing the opposite. So long as he is in a position to be able to profit by refusing to co-operate the whole system of co-operation will break down.
Is not that what we are suggesting should be done? The small minority want dealing with, and we suggest that they should be dealt with rather than put the whole of the agricultural community under a compulsory order.
I will come to that in a moment. The only point I wish to mention here is that the severer method of supervision is not available. That severer supervision is only available when the rules of good husbandry are not being observed. There is not one way only of observing the rules of good husbandry; there are hundreds of ways of doing it. I recollect that one of the best farmers we ever had in Leicestershire used to manage 3,000 acres, and his pastures were so well managed that when they ploughed up a strip of it for experimental purposes they found that they were such good pastures that they could not be improved upon. Yet that man never had a plough on the farm for any of his 3,000 acres. It was perfectly good husbandry, but it was not producing grain when grain was essential to the country.
It is quite untrue to say that increased acreages of tillage can be got by threatening farmers with supervision orders for bad husbandry, because a low percentage of tillage is not necessarily bad husbandry at all. There are hundreds of ways of managing a farm, all of which are methods of good husbandry. The trouble is that at the present moment we want that type of good husbandry which produces grain. We can do that only by getting the farmers to co-operate to give us that grain and we can get agricultural co-operation only by having the means of coercing the recalcitrant minority. Therefore, this is the right and sensible way to do it.
I make this appeal to hon. Members opposite. At this time when it is essential that we should have good will and cooperation, I ask them not to try to take political advantage by stirring up the countryside to treat this order—which is only one to secure voluntary co-operation—as though it were an oppression imposed upon the industry and something which ought to be resisted. If hon. Members opposite, who have great influence in the countryside, would ask farmers who agree with them to co-operate, as we ask those who agree with us to co-operate, for the national good in this time of terrible urgency, they will be doing a patriotic job, even if sacrificing some party advantage. I do not think that in the long run party advantages which are taken in this sort of way stick.
9.31 p.m.
The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) gave a most realistic speech. He has made it quite clear, at last, why this order is being introduced. It is being introduced because the Minister of Agriculture has failed to get the feeding-stuffs for the Minister of Food and, therefore, has to revise his last year's programme.
Nonsense.
If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to make a speech perhaps he will get up. I cannot hear him from his recumbent position.
I said that the hon. Member was talking absolute nonsense.
The Parliamentary Secretary evidently did not listen to his own Minister when he said that we no longer expect to get the same supplies of feeding-stuffs from abroad as we did before the war. That is why he is bringing in this order.
I do not object to any order against a man who is not farming in the interests of his land or his country, but the men who are going to be attacked by this order are farming in the interests of their land and are producing a good crop, which is grass. If the hon. and learned Member for Northampton can explain to me that grass is not a valuable crop for the country at present, I am perfectly ready not to vote against this order. In order to get increased livestock to get the meat, bacon and eggs which this country wants, we must get the land in good heart and we must get a good crop of grass growing on the land. On this point, let me quote the Minister of Food, who gave the Minister of Agriculture some curious advice on Monday last when he told us that coarse grains were three times more expensive to import than meat—which the Minister of Food imagined was fed on coarse grains. He went on to say:
Since last March?
I meant March, 1947. The hon. Member will remember that the Minister's announcement came in March, 1947. I happened to be out of the country at the time, but I heard it with great joy on the other side of the world. For that reason, 1½ million acres have been put down. I should like hon. Members who are interested to go into the real troubles which farmers have. I look at some of my graphs for the last five years and see white crop after white crop grown in order to try to obey the Minister's edict. The time has come when a great deal of arable land in England should be under grass for a year or two to get it into good heart again. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) spoke with derision about his constituent—
I said that he was the best farmer in Leicestershire.
The hon. and learned Member said he was not farming as the nation wanted.
Indeed he was.
If that man had good grassland which under the plough would turn up to most productive arable land he was doing good by his country and the directions for which the Minister is asking under this order are not required.
I wish to turn to another aspect of this order and to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to explain the legal side When I saw the hon. and learned Member for Northampton get up, I thought he was going to deal with the legal problem which is involved in the order. I wish to ask the Parliamentary Secretary, what is pasture land? Directions are to be made on all land under pasture
Last Saturday I saw that in one of his country orations the Minister of Agriculture said that he was puzzled to find what was the difference between the Conservative Charter for Agriculture and the Government's agricultural policy. They were both aiming, on his computation, at similar targets. We believe that the livestock target which is set out in that document is capable of realisation—[HON. MEMBERS: "What document?"] The Conservative Agricultural Charter. If hon. Members want a copy and will send me 1s. 1d. I will post one to them. But we must get grass. That can be best achieved, not by a system of direction, but by enlisting the help of good farmers in this country.
9.41 p.m.
The hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Baldwin) put his finger on the whole issue when he said, speaking of the agricultural community, that if a minority of its members are not doing their job they should be made to do it. That is simply what the Minister is doing here. I think we are agreed on both sides of the House that it is not advisable to allow a large acreage of land to go back to grass. We have to remember that we already have a large acreage of permanent grass which if it were properly minded and dealt with, would deal with the livestock which this country possesses and would feed it properly. To add to that large acreage of permanent grass by permitting tillage to go down to grass, is simply working against the interests of the country.
The question therefore arises, How is this result to be obtained? It is either to be obtained by an appeal or by direction. No Minister has appealed more to the agricultural community than has the present Minister of Agriculture; no Minister has appealed for their voluntary service more than the present Minister. I will go further and say that no Minister has had the response from the farmers that the present Minister of Agriculture has had but we have to bear in mind that while the Minister has been making his appeal to the farmers on this voluntary basis for their co-operation, on the figures given by the hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. York), 800,000 acres have gone back to grass. That definitely proves that the appeal which the Minister is making or has made is failing in one respect. Therefore, in the opinion of the Government and of the Minister it is advisable that action should be taken to stop this land from going back to grass.
Hon. Members have said—and I fully agree—that the bulk of the farmers play the game. That is perfectly true. The bulk of the citizens of the country play the game but it is necessary for the Government to take action to cover the whole of the citizens. To take education as an example, the majority of people would send their children to school voluntarily in order that they should be educated but it is necessary to have a compulsory Education Act in order that those who would not do so should be compelled to do so. Exactly the same principle operates in this direction. As for the statement that we do not trust the farmers, nothing is further from the truth. We do trust the farmers. We know that they co-operate but we know that a small minority can undermine the efforts of the majority unless they are stopped in time.
We cannot wait until an emergency is right on top of us before we begin to act. I think that the Minister, in taking this step now, is working in the best interests of the country. I will not go into the statements regarding dried grass and ensilage and so forth, because I think that they can better be dealt with on another occasion. I feel confident that in their heart of hearts, the Opposition know that the step which the Government are now taking is necessary and, in the circumstances, is right. If they had the opportunity, if they were in the position of the Minister, they would be doing exactly what he is doing.
9.46 p.m.
This order, I know, will be received with the utmost consternation by the farmers in my constituency, for two reasons. One is that they probably suffered more than anybody else as the result of the direction orders given during the war. Secondly, the Minister's statement tonight finally dashes any hopes that they may have had of increased supplies of feedingstuffs in the ensuing months. We are told that this has been brought about because of an un-co-operative minority of farmers. How can farmers possibly know what is the Government's agricultural policy or wishes when they have received so many contradictory statements over the last three years? How has the Minister suddenly decided what is the number of the small minority or even that the minority exists. I hope that he will at least give the utmost discretion to the county committees who are to advise him in connection with this order. I should like to extract a promise from him tonight that the Craven District of Yorkshire will be exempt altogether from the provisions of this order.
I ask the Minister whether existing supplies will enable us to maintain our present head of livestock in the country or whether he can see any increase in the next six months or year. Are we to be able to maintain our existing stocks with the feedingstuffs that will become available? A few months ago we had a statement, presumably with the full authority of the Ministry of Agriculture, published in that very expensive item in our daily Press, "Report to the Nation" which costs the taxpayer, I think, £2 million a year. In No. 15 of the Reports we find these words:
Can the Minister tell us tonight what increase he expects in our livestock, or in food production, during the next six or nine months from these feedingstuffs that are to come in and from the very big increase which he hopes is coming at a later stage as a result of these cropping orders. Finally, will he once more consider the claims of my own farmers. In our part of Yorkshire we have a particularly high rainfall and I know that if these orders are not carried out in a reasonable way, considerable hardship will be suffered by a number of the farmers in my constituency.
9.50 p.m.
I assure the Minister that we on this side of the House share his anxiety about the fall in the output from our land during the last three years. The idea incorporated in this order is a new one. We do not think that it is a good idea. It is one of those commandments—"Thou shalt not …" If this order is approved, a committee may tell a farmer that he shall not have more than a certain amount of his land under permanent grass or even under herbage crops such as lucerne which gives a bigger output of high quality feed than almost any other crop which can be grown whether classed as tillage or as grass. Tillage acreage is not the sole criterion of high production, and it is high production that we need. The fact that there may be more acres of tillage on a certain date may impress Ministers, civil servants, economists and such like theorists, but it does not necessarily make for production from our land. Today the thing that matters is full output.
Under this order what I fear may happen is that a rule of thumb procedure will be applied in each region. Someone in Whitehall, or may be in some regional office, will say, "For the South-Western region or for the Eastern region, we think that the proportion of grass should not be more than three out of five, or one out of 10, or whatever it may be." That will be easy for the official mind but it will not make for good farming. It will not make for the high production which we all want to see. I urge on the Minister what was said by the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Crawley) a few minutes ago. We are risking the breakdown of the voluntary system. The hon. Member referred particularly to committee work. I fear that we shall force a breakdown if we give the Minister power, through his officials, to fix a rule of thumb proportion of how much land shall be kept under the plough and how much shall be allowed to be used as grass land.
I ask him to think for a moment of what has been done in Wiltshire where I farm. We have a first-class chairman of the county committee. He did what I am sure the Minister will wholeheartedly approve. I approve of it. He had a meeting—[ Interruption. ] Does the Minister want to intervene?
No.
If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to say something I will give way.
I do not want to prevent the hon. Member from saying everything in which he did not believe during the course of the war.
No doubt the Minister was engaged in a private conversation and did not hear what I said. I said that the chairman of his committee in Wiltshire had recently done something of which he would approve. Certainly I approve it. He called together the county committee and the farmers and persuaded them to think and work as a team. This produced remarkably good results during the war and I am glad to say that it will produce equally good results today without any necessity for a tillage order such as the one the Minister has put before us this evening. I ask the Minister to think again and to see if he cannot re-inspire the team spirit in the counties and get rid of any idea of compulsion such as that for which he is asking power to impose tonight.
9.55 p.m.
Of all the hon. Members who have taken part in the Debate tonight, it seems to me very clear that the most uncomfortable is the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, and I can well understand it, because he has so much more knowledge than a good many others of what was done and what is the real procedure under our committee arrangements. I can understand that, having sat cheek by jowl with his hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), who denied that there was anything to be uncomfortable or worried about in the decline in tillage, it provoked the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) to make it quite clear how very uncomfortable and how very worried he was about tillage.
The whole argument from the other side of the House is that there was not a fall in tillage, or, if there was, grass was such a good crop that we should not be worried about it. Hon. Members opposite had better fight that out between themselves. The hon. Member for Newbury said something about the tillage acreage not being the sole criterion of good farming or getting the necessary crops. Nobody on this side has ever said it is. What we have said is that it is an important element in the criterion, and, if it is an important element, if it falls, clearly it is a matter to be worried about and to consider at some stage whether something should not be done about it.
On the question of the breakdown of the voluntary system, not only is nothing further from the truth, but when the hon. Gentleman mentioned something which he thought the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Crawley) had said, it was in fact the very opposite of what my hon. Friend had said. The experience which I have had with county committees and district committees leads me to say that nothing could make it more sure or more necessary for the voluntary system to continue than the good work which these district committees and their district members have done in the job of going round to the farms and seeing their neighbours' farms and persuading them that certain things should be done in the general interest.
It is necessary for these people to talk a little tough sometimes with un-co-operative neighbours, and I deprecate these continued references, made by the noble Lord the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Lord Willoughby de Eresby) and others, about the Minister going down through his officials, but without having inspected the farms as the noble Lord said. If hon. Gentlemen opposite ever take the trouble to find out how these committees work, they will know that that is absolute nonsense. What, in fact, happens is that a member of a district committee goes round his neighbour's farms and talks to them, and I can tell hon. Gentlemen opposite that I have paid many visits to farms and talked with ordinary farmers, and everywhere I went, I have found not exactly a complaint, but a statement that they found it very difficult in explaining to Mr. Jones why it is that Mr. Smith has so flagrantly flouted all they were asking him to do and nothing ever happened. I have found that day after day in visits up and down the country.
With regard to the Debate generally, I have one observation to make. When I was at the Royal Show at York, a very distinguished leader of the agricultural industry came to me and said, "Do you think we are now going to start playing politics with this great industry?" I said that I thought that largely depended on the other side, and he replied, "I think it is an awful pity." In fact, what we have seen tonight has been nothing but playing politics with a great industry. There is so much that is important in our food situation. Indeed, if hon. Gentlemen opposite want an example of playing politics, it is a fact that, except for the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. E. P. Smith), who is not in agreement with the rest of his colleagues, and for one other hon. Member, not a single spokesman from that side of the House has once referred either to the world food situation or to this country's food situation. It was not in their minds at all. We have, in fact, seen an example of nothing but playing politics with a very great industry.
Surely, we on this side have been consistent on this point all the way through the Standing Committee. It was only because we were assured that this would never arise, except in a national emergency, that we did not vote against it.
I will deal, I hope most effectively, with the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Baldwin) in a few minutes. In fact, it might not be a bad idea if I dealt with him now. The incredible thing is that the hon. Gentleman read an extract from the Committee proceedings to prove that the Minister gave an assurance when the Clause was introduced, whereas in fact the Clause was not introduced until the Report stage. Therefore, what was said in Committee could not have any connection with the Clause.
No, that is not true.
It is true. What the hon. Gentleman has been persistently referring to is the mistake which has run all through this Debate. We are not applying powers of general direction. We are applying a limited power which was inserted into the Bill on the Report stage on 6th June, reported in column 539 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, when the Minister moved the Amendment which added this part to the Bill. I should like to quote from the Minister's remarks. It is alleged that, somehow, there was a breach of confidence, in that the Minister had given an assurance that he would not do this unless we had an emergency, and that in fact he has done so. In column 539, talking about the tillage acreage my right hon. Friend said:
"The Government fear that the tendency to decrease which has taken place since 1944 may go too far and too fast, when we need to make the best use of our agricultural resources. We should not make the best use of them if we allowed that to continue."
In column 540 he said:
"It is, therefore, my intention"—
I ask the House, and in particular the right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) to note the words—
"to seek the approval of the House to make an order."
Mr. Manningham-Buller is speaking on column 540.
If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would get the right document we should be together.
I am reading from the bound volume of HANSARD.
I am reading from HANSARD of Friday, 6th June, 1947—not 1948—the Report stage of the Agriculture Bill.
The 5th June.
No, 6th June. I am sorry, I have misled the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. My copy of HANSARD is dated 6th June, but it includes the Debate for Thursday, 5th June. It was one of those Debates which went on after 10 o'clock. The Debate took place on 5th June. I first of all quoted from column 539 and I am now quoting from column 540.
It is very confusing. I have the bound volume, and on column 540 is the speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller).
As it happens that we are in the middle of a Debate on an order made under the Agriculture Act, and as the HANSARD from which I am quoting refers to the Debate on the Agriculture Bill, it looks as if I have got the right Report, and the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has not.
I am sorry. I only want to know what part is being quoted. I have the HANSARD containing the Debate on the Report stage of the Agriculture Bill, and on column 540 is a speech by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Daventry. The last line at the bottom is an interjection by the Solicitor-General, in which he says:
"It does not apply to birds."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th June, 1947; Vol. 438, c. 540.]
I hope that will convince the hon. Gentleman that I am dealing with the same thing.
The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is so anxious about this very telling and complete answer which I am making, that he is going all over the place. However, I repeat, whatever is in the bound volume which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has got—I will get together with him afterwards and find him the right place—in the daily HANSARD which I have got, which I certainly did not invent and did not have printed specially for us, my right hon. Friend said in column 540:
Now we come to a far more telling point. The hon. and gallant Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale) who followed my right hon. Friend, and who has not yet spoken tonight, which is rather interesting in view of this quotation, made a statement in column 541 of the daily part of the OFFICIAL REPORT. My right hon. Friend had introduced the Clause and made a statement that he would implement it by making an order. The hon. and gallant Baronet said:
There is nothing mysterious about that. As a matter of fact, my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) explicitly referred to it in his speech at the opening of this Debate, when he said that during the passage of these particular Clauses on the Report stage of the Agriculture Act, we on this side of the House preferred to have these proposals in the Act instead of the emergency powers already existing. We made it clear, I think, that while we preferred that, we reserved our position to debate any order that might be produced by the Minister at the time—reserved our position to decide whether or not it was necessary.
The hon. Baronet must not ride off on that. My right hon. Friend had just said, "It is my intention to make an order" and the point I am making is that, despite all we have heard tonight, no word was then said from the other side that this would be the wrong thing to do. The hon. and gallant Baronet thought on that occasion that it commended itself to his hon. Friends, and he recommended it to them. I have the greatest affection for the hon. and gallant Baronet—[ Interruption. ] Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman getting worried?
Anybody knows the difference between procedure and executive action. One can agree with procedure without agreeing with executive action.
Before the right hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) butted in, I was about to say that I was not anxious to involve the hon. and gallant Baronet, for whom I have very great affection, with the Gestapo. It looks as if I have done so and I am sorry, but it had to be done in view of what has been said earlier.
What does that mean?
The hon. Gentleman is very worried; he must just sit tight and take it.
A number of points have been raised with which I should like to deal individually, because I still hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite will have as much concern—as I know they have—for the food situation of this country and of the world that they will think carefully about running into the Lobby against this order on a sheer political issue. I will, therefore, try, if I may, to answer the points which they have made. The right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough said that no sensible people will object to being ordered about. That is entirely our view, but that is exactly what we are not going to do. I would remind hon. Gentlemen opposite that we have been pressed again and again by that side of the House to take action; when the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Emrys Roberts) said there had been no alternative from that side of the House, he did them a little less than justice, for the alternative has been that we should use the whole of the cumbersome method of supervision orders and dispossession in order to deal with this point. That has been repeated again and again
I venture to say, with great respect, that if we had used that method—if it had been practical and possible, and we had thought it right to use that method—we should have been met with the very argument which they have opposed in every way tonight. We should have been told that we were using a great, cumbersome, burdensome, heavy bludgeon. In fact, it is because we want to avoid that criticism that we have said that this is the appropriate thing to do, and that this is the appropriate method to use.
The hon. Gentleman will, perhaps, remember that it was during the Committee stage of the Agriculture Bill that the Minister was continually assuring us that supervision was really something friendly between the farmers and the committees, and that it was not something of which people should be ashamed or afraid.
Supervision may well be something friendly. In some ways, I suppose, it is. However, I must say that the stigma of being put under supervision—
Oh.
Steady.
It is no good hon. Members, and the hon. Member for Westonsuper-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing), who has been conspicuously absent during the Debate—
On a point of Order. I must ask for your protection, Sir, against this attack. Except for the first two speeches I have been here throughout the Debate.
I am sure the hon. Member need not ask for protection from me. It is no use hon. Members opposite trying to laugh this off. If hon. Members opposite will talk with the farmers in their constituencies and ask them about whether the effect is worse, or would be felt to be worse, of being placed under supervision for a year and subject to dispossession, than having the power of this particular order, for use in the few cases in which men cannot be persuaded to keep an adequate proportion of their land under arable crops, I am quite certain myself what the answer will be. I commend hon. Members opposite to go themselves to inquire.
The right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough made a point which has been repeated again and again, and which I may, perhaps, deal with next—that the minority is so small that this is really an unworthy, and bad order to introduce because it may look as though it affects the whole industry and everyone in it. The answer to that is two-fold. First, in tact we are not going to use it in a widespread manner. My right hon. Friend has made it quite clear that the use of this power is to be delegated to the county committees, to the farmers there, who will know the fellows who cannot be persuaded—who will not be persuaded—to grow crops on adequate areas of their farms. It will be those farmers who will, in fact, against a limited number of people, use this power.
Then there is the other argument that the minority should be left alone—should be left to rip—because they are a minority. That is a most extraordinary argument. If we have a minority allowed to be left to rip, to be left alone, quite clearly the minority will tend to grow. That is, in fact, the whole reason why society provides itself with weapons to protect itself against the minority of wrongdoers—because the minority would otherwise tend to grow, and there would be less respect for general co-operation. We think we ought not to let the minority alone since it has become, as the hon. Member for Newbury said, a matter of concern that the tillage acreage should be falling rather than increasing. The fact that it is falling is due to the minority, and we think that they ought not to be left alone to rip.
Then we have the argument that this particular limited direction, this particular limited power to deal with the man who puts down more land to grass than is proper, is against the rules of good husbandry. That is nonsense. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) dealt very fully with this point. This is a time when we need arable crops. Hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot say we do not need them. They go to the country making speeches saying that we did not grow enough potatoes, that we have not grown enough wheat, that the acreage under wheat is down—ignoring the effect of the weather, and so on. But they make those statements.
So they cannot argue—it is nonsense to do so—that, when we need this kind of farming, to ask farmers, to persuade farmers, and, in the end, if necessary, to make farmers who are un-co-operative, the minority, grow crops on which the country depends, is against the rules of good husbandry. During the war, when we had three or four straw crops following each other, we rather over-did it; up to 1943 we rather over-did it. I have never used the argument, although it has always been open to use, that it was under the aegis of the right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) that the greatest decrease in tillage acreage occurred, after 1943, because there were fields in which we over-did tillage. I have not used it, because we recognise that there were fields which had to be rested after 1943, but, in fact, we clearly have to farm this way today, and we must expect farmers—and most of them recognise it—to farm in this way.
The hon. Member for Ripon made the point that we do not trust the farmers. Normally, I would not deal with that—it is a slogan and I would have let it go—but perhaps it had better be nailed down straight away. It is a complete falsehood. If we go around the country and talk to farmers who have experience of my right hon. Friend in the last three years and of the previous occupant of his office, there will be no doubt which of them is the one trusting the farmers most. The hon. Member for Newbury will be the first to face what is the effect on the farmers. They do not feel that the Minister does not trust them or that the Government do not trust them. The farmers take the view—I have by accident in my hand—[ Interruption ]—it happened to be here, very fortunately—a Press cutting of a meeting of the Hampshire Farmers' Union in which I see that one farmer drew attention:
The hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. E. P. Smith) took the courageous view, and the only possible view in the present international situation, that we are bound to take some action of this kind. The hon. Member for Barkston Ash (Colonel Ropner) made the point of what he called the lack of agricultural knowledge on this side of the House compared with that side, and he talked about the apprehension of farmers. We have had reference several times today to a little document recently published by the Conservative Party, which has been sufficiently well advertised, so I will not again advertise it, except to say that the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) invites people to buy it for one shilling. I think that they can get the 1947 Act of Parliament in a cheaper and better form; but with regard to this point of the apprehension of farmers, may I read one sentence from that document?
What document?
This is a document recently issued by the Conservative Party, which the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton will sell to the hon. Member if he will ask him for it.
May I be informed of the name of this document, so that we can check the statement?
It has been quoted already by the Member for Thirsk and Malton. The quotation which I wish to make is as follows—
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. The Parliamentary Secretary has quoted from a document, and he refuses to say what the document is. Is the House not entitled to know the name of the document which he is quoting?
The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton did quote it, and I think that he said what it was. If the hon. Member was not here—[ Interruption ].
As it happens I was here. I think it was during the time when Mr. Deputy-Speaker was in the Chair, and I do not believe it was during the speech of my hon, Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton). It was during the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Barkston Ash (Colonel Ropner). [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] In any event, in this House—
I was in the Chair, and I heard the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) refer to it.
I would remind the House that in giving this quotation I am following up the point that farmers have certain apprehensions. The quotation from this Conservative Party pamphlet is:
"Farmers have long memories, and have fears of a return of the conditions which prevailed after the 1914–18 war."
There, the Conservative Party itself confesses that it is the policy followed by the Conservative Party about which farmers have apprehensions, and not about what this Government is doing.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary go on with that quotation? The following passage is the only part relevant to this order; it is the next line which is relevant, but which he left out.
The only relevant part for me is the part I have quoted.
Shame!
Read on.
Let me tell hon. Members opposite that I have faced that kind of reception too many times in my life to give way to it now.
Read on.
If the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) has nothing better to do, I can face him for a long while.
Do not falsify quotations.
I am used to facing courteous people, but I can face the other kind if I have to.
The next question asked by the hon. and gallant Member for Barkston Ash was: why did we not introduce this order before, if the situation is as we say? The answer is, as has already been pointed out: because we have genuinely tried to avoid doing anything of the kind; we have used persuasion, given guidance, and afforded every chance to act. In fact, we have reduced the rate at which the tillage acreage was down; but it is quite clear—so it seems to me and, I believe, to the farmers themselves, and to the farming members of county committees—that there is a minority not playing ball, and for that reason we have reluctantly introduced this order now and not before.
I think I need deal with no other points at this stage, except one made by the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, who quoted a statement from a speech of the Minister of Food about grass fed meat, and his further statement, "That means, therefore, we need good grass." We entirely agree with that; the keynote is good grass. We want the greatest proportion of meat produced from the smallest proportion of grass, and that is the whole point of our grassland improvement campaign. We are doing our best; a great deal is being done to improve the standard of grassland management in order that it may carry a greater head of stock. In that the Minister of Food was in complete agreement with my right hon. Freind and the policy he is carrying out.
We have heard speeches from the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington, the noble Lord, Earl De La Warr, and all sorts of high-powered speakers from the other side of the House, saying that we must have a higher tillage acreage. What my right hon. Friend is asking the House to do tonight is to put some teeth into that statement, to ensure that those farmers charged with the job of keeping up the arable acreage shall be encouraged and helped in that job. If hon. Members opposite insist upon voting against this order, while I would not say "Vote and be damned," I would say, "Vote against it and be convicted of having very little concern for the industry, but great concern for what is thought to be party political advantage."
10.27 p.m.
The document which I have in my hand has been man-handled in the last quarter of an hour. I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary will agree with me that the quotation which he gave a few moments ago did not complete the quotation. I will complete the quotation for him, and perhaps he will inform the House whether it is the same as is in the document from which he read. Here it is:
"Farmers have long memories and they fear a return to the conditions which prevailed after the 1914–18 war."
At that point the hon. Member ceased his quotation, but the next few words are pertinent to the argument. They are:
"Those fears have not been removed by the Agriculture Act, 1947."
Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House whether those words are to be found in the copy from which he read?
It is the truth, but none the less the truth qualified by propaganda.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes 208; Noes, 74.
Division No. 266.] AYES. [10.28 p.m. Acland, Sir Richard Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. Adams, Richard (Balham) Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly) Longden, F. Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South) Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel) Lyme, A. W. Allen, A. G. (Bosworth) Evans, E. (Lowestoft) McAdam, W. Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Ewart, R. McGhee, H. G Alpass, J. H. Farthing, W. J McLeavy, F. Anderson, A. (Motherwell) Fernyhough, E. Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Attewell, H. C. Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.) Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.) Austin, H. Lewis Follick, M. Mathers, Rt. Hon. George Ayles, W. H. Fraser, T. (Hamilton) Mellish, R J. Ayrton Gould, Mrs B Freeman, J (Watford) Middleton, Mrs. L Bacon, Miss A Ganley, Mrs C. S. Mikardo, Ian Baird, J. George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey) Mitchison, G. R. Barstow, P. G Gibson, C. W Moody, A. S. Barton, C Glanville, J. E. (Consett) Morgan, Dr. H B. Battley, J. R. Goodrich, H E Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.) Bechervaise, A. E Grenfell, D. R. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham. E.) Benson, G. Grey, C. F. Moyle, A. Berry, H. Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) Murray J. D Beswick, F. Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly) Nally, W. Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) Guy, W. H. Neal, H. (Clay Cross) Blenkinsop, A. Hale, Leslie Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.) Boardman, H. Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford) Bottomley, A. G. Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R. Noel-Baker, Rt Hon. P. J. (Derby) Bowden, Fig. Offr H. W. Hannan, W. (Maryhill) Paget, R. T. Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) Hardy, E. A. Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Palmer, A. M. F. Bramall, E. A. Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford) Parkin, B. T. Brook, D. (Halifax) Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Paton, J. (Norwich) Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) Herbison, Miss M. Pearson, A. Brown, George (Belper) Hewitson, Capt. M. Perrins, W. Brown, T J. (Ince) Hobson, C. R. Popplewell, E. Burden, T. W. Holman, P. Porter, E. (Warrington) Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.) Holmes, H E (Hemsworth) Porter, G. (Leeds) Chamberlain, R. A Hoy, J. Pritt, D. N. Champion, A. J. Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.) Proctor, W T. Cobb, F. A. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Pursey, Comdr. H Coldrick, W. Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.) Randall, H E Collindridge, F. Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme) Ranger, J Collins, V. J. Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) Reeves, J Colman, Miss G. M. Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.) Reid, T (Swindon) Comyns, Dr. L. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Ridealgh, Mrs. M. Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W) Jeger, G. (Winchester) Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth) Corlett, Dr. J. Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) Crawley, A. Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools) Royle, C. Daggar, G. Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow) Scott-Elliott, W. Daines, P. Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) Shackleton, E. A. A Davies, Edward (Burslem) Keenan, W. Sharp, Granville Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.) Kenyon, C Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens) Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) King, E. M. Silverman, J. (Erdington) Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Kinley, J. Simmons, C. J. Deer, G. Kirby, B. V. Skeffington, A. M de Freitas, Geoffrey Lee, F. (Hulme) Skinnard, F W. Delargy, H. J. Lee, Miss J. (Cannock) Smith, Ellis (Stoke) Diamond, J. Leslie, J. R. Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.) Dodds, N. N Levy, B. W. Sorensen, R. W. Donovan, T. Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton) Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank Driberg, T. E. N Lewis, J. (Bolton) Sparks, J A. Dumpleton, C. W Lindgren, G. S. Steele, T. Dye, S Lipson, D. L. Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E)
Stross, Dr B Wadsworth, G Willis, E Stubbs, A E Weitzman, D Wills, Mrs E. A Sylvester, G. O Wells, P. L. (Faversham) Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A Symonds. A. L Wells, W T (Walsall) Woods, G. S Taylor, R J. (Morpeth) West, D. G. Yates, V. F. Taylor, Dr S (Barnet) Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.) Young, Sir R. (Newton) Thomas, D E. (Aberdare) White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Thomas, I O (Wrekin) Willey, F T. (Sunderland) TELLERS FOR THE AYES: Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove) Mr. Snow and Tolley, L Williams, Rt. Hon. T (Don valley) Mr. George Wallace. Viant, S P Williams, W. R (Heston) NOES Agnew, Cmdr. P. G Duthie, W. S Mellor, Sir J. Baldwin, A. E Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Walter Odey, G. W Beamish, Maj T V H Foster, J. G. (Northwich) Pitman, I J Birch, Nigel Fox, Sir G Reid, Rt Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead) Boles, Lt.-Col D C (Wells) Fyfe, Rt. Hon Sir D. P M Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) Bossom, A C Gage, C. Robinson, Roland Bowen, R. Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. Ropner, Col. L Bower, N. Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley) Sanderson, Sir F. Boyd-Carpenter, J A Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) Shepherd, W S (Bucklow) Bromley-Davenport, Lt -Col W Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N) Sutcliffe, H. Carson, E Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Taylor, C. S (Eastbourne) Challen, C Hogg, Hon. Q. Touche, G C. Clarke, Col. R. S Hollis, M C Turton, R H. Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col G Hurd, A. Wakefield, Sir W. W Cooper-Key, E M Keeling, E. H Walker-Smith, D. Corbet, Lieut.-Col U. (Ludlow) Langford-Holt, J. Wheatley, Colonel M. J (Dorset, E.) Crookshank, Capt. Rt Hon. H. F. C Lennox-Boyd, A. T. White, J. B. (Canterbury) Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col O E Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E) Williams, C. (Torquay) Cuthbert, W. N Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral) Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge) Davidson, Viscountess Low, A. R. W Willoughby de Eresby, Lord De la Bère, R Lucas, Major Sir J. York, C Digby, S. W. Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. Young, Sir A S. L (Partick) Dodds-Parker, A. D Mackeson, Brig H R. Drayson, G. B Macpherson, N (Dumfries) TELLERS FOR THE NOES: Drewe, C. Marshall, D (Bodmin) Mr. Studholme and Dugdale, Maj Sir T (Richmond) Marshall, S. H. (Sutton) Major Conant.
Resolved,
"That the Order, dated 8th July, 1948, entitled the Agriculture (Special Directions) (Maximum Area of Pasture) Order, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 13th July, be approved."
National Insurance Funds (Investment)
10.35 p.m.
I beg to move,
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty praying that the Rules, dated 25th June, 1948, entitled the National Insurance and Civil Service (Superannuation) (Schemes and Funds) Rules, 1948 (S.I., 1948, No 1407), a copy of which was presented on 28th June, be annulled."
I would like to ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, upon whether, in your view, it would be convenient for the next Motion, which relates to Statutory Instrument No. 1408, to be discussed together with the one I am now moving. The point which my hon. Friends and I propose to raise is the same on both Motions.
I should have thought that it would be for the convenience of the House, seeing that the point of the Prayers is exactly the same, that they should be taken together. If necessary, if the hon. Baronet wishes, the second Prayer can be called for Division, and Division only, if that suits the convenience of the House.
I am obliged to you, Mr. Speaker; I think that would be convenient. Statutory Instrument No. 1407 transfers to the National Debt Commissioners the securities of pension funds belonging to employees of the former approved societies, which were abolished by the National Insurance Act. Statutory Instrument 1408 vests in the National Debt Commissioners securities which, on 5th July, became assets of the National Insurance Fund and the National Insurance Reserve Fund; that is to say, securities which formerly were assets of the National Health Insurance Fund, the pensions funds, the Unemployment Fund and the funds of the approved societies.
My purpose in moving this Motion is to protest against the transfer to the National Debt Commissioners. My reason is—and I hope I shall prove it—that this body has no longer any degree of inde- pendence, but in fact now operates as a puppet of the Treasury. The National Debt Commission was established by statute in 1786, and it was then provided that the Commission should consist of the Speaker of the House of Commons, the Master of the Rolls, the Lord Chief Justice, the Accountant-General of the Supreme Court, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Governor and Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England. Apparently, until 1860 all those members took some part in the deliberations of the Commission; but since 1860, the first four of these members apparently have taken no part, and the Commission as a whole has not met since 1860. Since then, and up to the present time, the affairs of the National Debt Commission have been, and are, in fact, conducted by a quorum.
It has been prescribed by statute that the quorum shall be three. The quorum apparently is self-appointed. It consists of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Governor and Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England. Although the quorum has been prescribed by statute as being three, nowhere have I been able to discover that it is prescribed by statute that the quorum is to consist of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Governor and Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England; but that—and I am sure the Financial Secretary to the Treasury who, I believe, intends to reply, will not disagree—is the present practice; namely, that the work of the National Debt Commissioners is, in fact, carried out under the exclusive authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Governor and Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England. It is an invidious position because these three gentlemen conduct their business behind the vast dignity of the other four members, who are not consulted at all, and the three should, therefore, be more cautious as to how they conduct their business than is the case at present.
Apparently there has been no complaint until recently. Why has no one complained before? The answer is this. First, the character of the quorum has entirely changed since the Bank of England was nationalised. Before that happened, one had the Chancellor of the Exchequer with two very independent gentlemen representing the privately-owned Bank of England. There was then far less ground for criticism of the quorum, but now the Governor and Deputy-Governor are nominees of the Crown and we can only regard them as being allied to the Treasury.
And there is another reason, and that is our experience. I do not think that, until the investments in the undated "Dalton" stock on behalf of the Unemployment Fund were made, there was any ground for criticism of the way in which the National Debt Commissioners carried out their task, but during the last financial year, ending 31st March, 1948, the National Debt Commissioners bought no less than £55 million of 2½ per cent. Treasury undated stock, which is commonly called "Dalton" stock. In that one year they invested about £80 million of new money, including the £55 million, and all the rest was put in long-dated stocks. Not a penny went into short-dated stock. That is a very significant thing because, previously, this Unemployment Fund had been built up mainly of short-dated stocks, as indeed was proper, because the Unemployment Fund was to provide against a risk which could not easily be estimated in its incidence either as to time or extent. The explanation given by the Financial Secretary, for this very surprising departure in investing all the new money in either undated or long-dated stocks, was that the policy had been changed and the Government had decided to invest for yield rather than for liquidity. That is a very great departure.
The reason the right hon. Gentleman gave for that change was that there would not be any substantial unemployment. The policy of the new Government, he said, was to remove unemployment, and therefore there was no need to keep these funds liquid. If he were right about that, why did the Government continue to collect contributions and continue to require both employers and employees to pay contributions against a risk which no longer existed? I therefore feel that that reason will not hold water, and I reject it entirely. The result of these investments has been a very heavy loss to the Unemployment Fund. These investments were made, not for the reasons given by the right hon. Gentleman, but in order to manipulate the stock market with a view to creating a state of affairs enabling the Government to give less favourable compensation to the railway and electricity stockholders. That proceeding, from the point of view of the Fund, was both improvident and improper.
For these reasons I say that this Fund, or funds of this character, ought no longer to be entrusted to the National Debt Commissioners for investment. It would be far better that they should be entrusted to some independent authority like the public trustee, or an ad hoc committee. It is possible that this would require legislation, and I do not propose to pursue that at the moment, but there is no reason why the Minister of National Insurance should not retain the funds in his own hands. He would be a far more appropriate authority than the Treasury. The Minister of National Insurance would have the interest of the Fund alone at heart, and would not be concerned with general financial policy.
Therefore, I invite the attention of the Minister to his powers. Statutory Instrument No. 1407 is made under the Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1948, and in Section 3 of that Act the Minister is given power to make rules providing for the transfer in whole or in part of any pension funds or assets held for the purpose of any pension scheme for employees of the former approved societies. Under that Section, the Minister could quite easily have decided, instead of making these rules which transfer the securities to the National Debt Commissioners, to make rules retaining all the funds in his own hands. That would have been a preferable course. The National Debt Commissioners are not mentioned in the Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act at all, and therefore it seems quite gratuitous for the Minister of National Insurance to transfer those funds to that authority. Statutory Instrument No. 1408 was made under Section 66 of the National Insurance Act, 1946. Subsection (3) of that Section states: Debt Commissioners, it is purely a permissive reference. Sections 35 and 36 provide that the National Insurance Fund and the National Insurance Reserve Fund shall be established under the control and management of the Minister. It is provided in Section 35 (3) that any moneys forming part of the National Insurance Fund may from time to time be paid over to the National Debt Commissioners for investment in accordance with such directions as are given by the Treasury. But that Subsection is purely permissive. The Minister clearly has power under both statutes to retain these funds in his own hands, and I feel that while the National Debt Commissioners may be a very appropriate authority to invest funds for the purpose of the reduction of debt and so on, they are wholly inappropriate for the investment of insurance or trust funds, because they cannot, apparently, distinguish between the interests of a fund and the general financial policy of the Treasury. It is most important that anything in the nature of trust or insurance funds should be administered by an authority entirely independent of Treasury control.
10.52 p.m.
I beg to second the Motion.
I do not want to add anything on the general purpose of the discussion which my hon. Friend has so well explained. He has analysed these orders in such a way that it is hardly necessary to do more than second the Motion, but I wish briefly to point out the astonishing complexity of these orders and to suggest that they ought to be made part of an Act of Parliament. We are asked to agree to things put before us and unless hon. Members, like my hon. Friend and myself, choose to object, those things become the law of the land. They are utterly unintelligible. Let me quote the operative words of order No. 1407:
10.56 p.m.
The hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir J. Mellor) indicated at the beginning of his speech that his object was to protest against the transfer of these securities to the National Debt Commissioners. I propose to devote my remarks to that point, and that point only. The hon. Baronet has to my knowledge raised this important point on at least two occasions; on both of them, it fell to me to reply on behalf of the Government. I cannot say tonight any more than I have said on previous occasions.
It is quite true that the National Debt Commissioners are, and always have been, a fairly large body. They include not only the three who now act but others, including you, Sir, who for quite a number of years now have not been actively engaged as National Debt Commissioners. The three who now, quite legally, form a quorum, are the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Governor of the Bank of England, and the Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England. The others, or some of them, do get called in from time to time where it may be necessary, owing to absence or sickness, to obtain an additional signature to some document.
The right hon. Gentleman says that they legally form a quorum. I quite agree that a quorum is three; but who appointed the quorum, apparently, we have not traced.
As I indicated last time I spoke, it was laid down in the Act of Parliament; I gave the date when we last dealt with this matter.
That was with regard to the three, but it does not say which three. Who selected the three?
Although the Act does state that three shall form a quorum, it is true that it does not say which three. In fact, it means any three, and the practice has been—for many years now, throughout many successive Conservative Governments; and up to now no protest has been made either by the hon. Baronet or by any of his friends—that the three active National Debt Commissioners are the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day, and the Governor and the Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England.
The hon. baronet made the point that, since the Bank of England has been nationalised, the Governor and Deputy-Governor are no more than Treasury "stooges." That is grossly unfair to the Governor and the Deputy-Governor because they are, both of them, reputable men who would not lend themselves to that kind of thing. As I indicated to the hon. Member and to the House when we last debated this matter, day-to-day decisions by the National Debt Commissioners are taken in the office of the National Debt Commission and under the guidance and control of the Comptroller-General. It is only in matters of policy, and where decisions slightly out of the day-to-day running of the department are concerned, that they go to the National Debt Commissioners themselves for advice, guidance and decision. The Comptroller-General of the National Debt Office has access at any time both to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to the Governor and the Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England and to come here, as the hon. Baronet has done, not on one occasion but on three occasions now, asserting that the National Debt Office, the Comptroller-General and the National Debt Commissioners themselves in some way use the funds entrusted to them by this House under various Acts of Parliament for allegedly sinister purposes, is grossly unfair to those people who cannot answer for themselves. It is quite out of keeping with the facts.
I never attacked anybody. I am attacking the Government. I made no reference at all to the officials of the National Debt Office and I certainly would not do so. But what I was quite entitled to say was that since the nationalisation of the Bank of England, both the Deputy-Governor and the Governor of the Bank of England have become nominees of the Crown.
Is it not a fact that the Government, through the Bank of England Act, have made the Governor and the Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England incapable of answering for themselves?
I have not the faintest notion what the hon. Member for Mid-Bedford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) means by that question. Before the Bank of England was nationalised, there was the closest liaison between the Treasury and the Bank of England. When the Bank of England Act was passed, it was definitely agreed that the Bank would be left, as it had been in the past, to carry on its day-to-day management without interference by the Treasury, by the Government or by this House. I think that the House is well aware of the situation.
What the hon. Baronet is doing, quite definitely, is to try to allow it to be believed outside the House—though I do not think he believes it himself for one moment—that in some sinister way the funds belonging to the Unemployment Insurance Fund, the National Health Fund and the rest of them are being used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with the connivance of the Governor and Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England to "rig" the market, for some sinister and party political end. I say, therefore, once for all—and I hope this will sink in—that not only is what he says untrue, but that it would be physically impossible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, even if he had the connivance of the Governor and the Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England, to use these funds to bolster up the gilt-edged market, as the hon. Baronet has suggested.
As I have pointed out more than once, these moneys accrue from week to week and from month to month. The amount normally handed over by the Minister of National Insurance each week is about £400,000. That money, by various enactments which govern these things, has to be invested by the National Debt Commissioners, as soon as may be, in certain Government securities or securities which carry with them a Government guarantee—that is, in authorised Savings Bank securities. That being so, it would be wrong and illegal for the National Debt Commissioners to hold on to this money indefinitely. Anyone who has any knowledge of the City—I do not know whether the hon. Baronet has, but by the way he talks I imagine that he has not—must know that, when the Government broker goes into that market with no more than half-a-million at most, it is quite impossible for him to do anything to bolster up the market or to influence the rate of interest in the way that the hon. Baronet suggests.
At the time the hon. Baronet is speaking of, the rate of interest was 2½ per cent. It is now 3 per cent. I am sorry, I wish it were 2½ per cent. Industry, local authorities, everybody who studies these matters and desires the best for the community, wants the rate of interest to be as low as possible as this time, or indeed at any other. The plain fact is that, after the first great war, the rate of interest averaged about 4.9 per cent, in 1919. Thanks to this Government, and to the cheap money policy of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, a policy which has been followed by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, the average rate of interest on the National Debt is now about 2.2 per cent.
That in itself means a very great saving year by year and it has also enabled local authorities to borrow money much more cheaply than they otherwise could, and so made a great difference on the rates that they have to charge. Anybody who attacks this Government for trying to keep the rate of interest down is doing a disservice to the community. I do not apologise for the fact that the Government have gone in for a cheap money policy. But when we come to these funds, I have to tell the hon. Member that the amount coming on to the market and into the hands of the National Debt Commissioners at any time is nothing like sufficient to keep down the rate of interest, though I for one would like to have seen it kept down to the 2½ per cent, which ruled a year ago.
Now let me answer the query the hon. Member put to me. He wanted to know why it was that these moneys which, under the National Insurance Act, 1946, Section 66, can be paid over to the Minister of National Insurance, were paid to the National Debt Commissioners to invest on his behalf. The answer is that it was a commonsense thing to do. The National Debt Commissioners are there for that purpose, to act for the Government and to manage not only these, but a variety of funds. If hon. Members will turn to Section 35 of the National Insurance Act and read Subsection 3, he will see that
"May."
Yes, "may." I did not say "shall." I was reading the Act.
I was only emphasising the "may."
—
be paid over to the National Debt Commissioners …"
to be invested. I am not hiding anything. We have an excellent case. I have nothing to be ashamed of in this matter. There is no reason whatever why I should try to slip in a "shall" for a "may." The Act says:
"Any moneys forming part of the National Insurance Fund may from time to time be paid over to the National Debt Commissioners and by them invested, in accordance with such directions as may be given by the Treasury."
Let me pause at those words for a moment. Suppose what the hon. Gentleman said were true, that is, that the National Debt Commissioners, including the Governor and the Deputy-Governor, were "stooges" of the Government and of the Treasury. Even if they were, they would only be complying with Section 35 (3) of the Act, because there it is laid down in black and white that they must consult the Treasury and must comply with such directions as may be given by the Treasury for the investment of these funds. So the time at which the hon. Baronet should have complained was when the Bill was going through. All that the National Debt Commissioners are doing is to comply with the Act.
My whole point is that this is purely permissive for the Minister, and I thought that the right hon. Gentleman recognised that; but there is nothing to stop the Minister keeping the funds in his own hands. I should much prefer them to go to him than to the National Debt Commissioners. That is quite a simple point.
Yes, but what the hon. Baronet forgets is that on 5th July these funds were, in fact, paid over to the National Debt Commissioners.
On what authority?
On the authority of this House. What we are dealing with here are moneys that have come in from day to day. What is the Minister to do with them? He can either keep them or hand them to some other body to invest. Those actually in hand at the vesting day, 5th July, went to the National Debt Commissioners. If we accepted the suggestion of the hon. Baronet and put the moneys into the hands of the Public Trustee, this House would lose all control over them. We could not have, as we are now able to have, Debates such as this. It is much better that these moneys are kept, as they ought be kept, under the control of the Government of the day, than that they should be handed over to some outside body like the Public Trustee. That is what we are doing here. What the Minister of National Insurance is doing is to hand these moneys over to the body which has been set up for investing Government funds. Here, under this particular Section of the Act he is given, or the Treasury are given, a say in how they shall be invested.
What does the Treasury do in this matter? Actually, the Treasury, as the Treasury, leaves it—and very properly so—to the National Debt Commissioners. The policy is laid down; it has been decided—quite definitely decided—that now, as they have sufficient moneys liquid for all present purposes, some of the money should be put to a reserve. I would remind hon. Gentlemen that the need for liquidity is now smaller than it used to be. In the old days, we had separate funds, and the funds attributable to the National Health side of insurance were kept in a more permanent form of investment than those of the Unemployment Insurance, which were kept very liquid—for the simple reason that, under a Tory Government, we always had a pool of unemployment, and sometimes a good deal of unemployment, so that it was absolutely essential to keep the unemployment money very liquid.
Now we have amalgamated these funds. We have about £100 million of this money in a fairly liquid form, and it was decided—as a matter of fact, not by the present Government, but by the Caretaker Government which preceded it—that the time had come to put some of the money into a reserve and an endowment fund, which would return a much higher yield than short-dated securities. We have carried out that plan. It is a common-sense plan for a Government to pursue and we intend to continue to pursue it. The only instructions given to the National Debt Commissioners are that they should seek the best yield, within the limits set by the Act—namely, that they should put the money into Government or Government-guaranteed stocks. They have found the best yield in what are colloquially known as "Daltons," because buying "Daltons" as a long-term investment is a good buy and gives a good yield. That is the reason, and no other.
I do not think I can say any more. It is quite true that the Act behind Statutory Instrument No. 1407 is not explicit as to who should handle the funds that are paid over or received. But here again, as with Order No. 1408 where the point is covered by an Act of Parliament, it is common sense that the body dealing with these things in general should deal with those in particular. It is absurd to suggest that we should set up a special body to handle these superannuation assets, which presently, when the rules are made more permanent, will be sorted out in the proper way.
Therefore, it is not right to suggest to the House that the Government have not done what any other Government would have done. The National Debt Commissioners have functioned properly, as they always function properly, without an eye on party political advantage, but simply to serve the best interests of the nation, whatever Government is in power.
11.17 p.m.
The Financial Secretary was right in saying that this was the third time on which this subject has been debated, and I would start by congratulating him on the fact that this is the first time that he has not tried to make out that our objection to what the Government are trying to do is due to a vendetta against the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
It used to be.
So far as we on this side of the House are concerned,
"We come to bury Dalton, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them."
There are two questions which all hon. Members in this House have to answer for themselves. The first is, can we honestly say that the moneys accruing to the Government during the last year have been properly used; and secondly, do we think the Government are going to use properly the enormous funds which they will now receive? Those are two important questions. The Financial Secretary has answered them for us, because if I understood what he said, it was that the funds the Government have would be used if necessary to bolster up the cheap money policy, and he would be the first to advocate such a policy.
indicated assent.
I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. That means that we in this House are being asked to trust these enormous amounts to a Government which, in pursuit of a cheap money—
I hope I made a clear istinction between what I would do in he name of common sense—
Oh, no.
If the hon. Member would not interrupt me, I could finish my sentence. I was saying I hoped I made a clear distinction between what I personally would do and what the National Debt Commissioners under an Act of Parliament have to do.
I shall come on to that distinction. I understand the Financial Secretary said he would use these funds to support a cheap money policy. I think that was his phrase. I do not think anybody in this House is going to question the fact that the cheap money policy from which we have suffered has proved a complete and utter failure. The Government have tried to keep it going, but it could not be sustained and has cost this country countless millions of pounds. Hon. Members opposite laugh, but they only have to look at what has happened to Government securities and credits. We have had a certain number of loans and issues under this Government. They have fallen catastrophically, because a policy of cheap money was promoted which could not be realised.
The Financial Secretary said he would be perfectly willing to use these funds to support a cheap money policy. That seems to me to be a most dangerous thing. I think I know the Financial Secretary as well as most Members of the House—if I may say so with respect, I have a great admiration for him—but at the same time I would not like to trust him or any other Member, either on that side or this side of the House, with unlimited funds to carry out a monetary policy which may prove disastrous to the common weal. Whatever hon. Members opposite may think about cheap money, I ask them to remember that never have there been so many issues produced by a Government which have fallen so much in so short a time.
The Financial Secretary then went on to say that all was well, because the Gov- ernment could not really influence anything. Policy must rest with the National Debt Commissioners. But he himself, not only in this Debate, but also in the previous Debate, has proved how completely false that argument is. He has admitted that three people count so far as the National Debt Commissioners are concerned—the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Governor of the Bank of England and the Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England. I understand from what he said, that if one of these was not available, someone like Mr. Speaker would be asked to sign on the dotted line. I am glad that the Financial Secretary agrees.
If that is so, then it must be that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury, and therefore the Government, have complete control over these funds. Whilst it may be possible for the Chancellor to say that at noon he is Chancellor of the Exchequer and at one minute past he is Chairman of the National Debt Commissioners, no one is deceived into believing that the policy the Chancellor may declare as Chancellor and what he may say as Chairman of the National Debt Commissioners will not be the same. Indeed, the Financial Secretary admitted it himself in the Debate of 31st May of this year.
Let us pursue the argument. There is no intention on our part to attack the Bank of England or the Governor or Deputy-Governor of the Bank; but this we do say, and the Chancellor of the Duchy made it absolutely clear when he proposed it to this House—it was greeted rapturously by hon. Members opposite—that, were the Bank of England to be nationalised, then the Bank would be subservient to the Government of the day. Time and time again during those Debates he said that the object of nationalising the Bank of England was because the Bank could not be left in a position where it is independent of the Government. It must be brought within the sphere of the Government. It seems to me ludicrous for the Financial Secretary to come here tonight and try to prove the contrary—that the Governor is independent. So far as major decisions are concerned, the Governor of the Bank of England comes directly under the Treasury. All that is happening at the moment is that these funds are governed by the Treasury and their "stooges"—I use the word deliberately; be- cause I know full well that on matters of principle it is impossible for the Governor or Deputy-Governor to object to the Treasury's decisions. If they did, then they would lose their jobs. It may be that they would be prepared, on a matter of principle, to lose their jobs—and all honour to them. But that is their only alternative choice.
The most interesting thing is what has been done with these funds. I have tried to make an extract which I hope is accurate, and it would seem that these funds now total some £630 million. As to what a short-term security is, I would quote the Financial Secretary, who said, during an Adjournment Debate, 10 years. Out of the money available—that is excluding what may be granted tonight—£270 million are in short-dated securities, and £330 million in long-term securities. When the Financial Secretary talks about the reserve fund, what he has actually done is to put more than half the money available into long and irredeemable securities.
I would call the attention of the House to one other fact; that is, that of the shortest long-dated stock, which is National Savings Bond 3 per cent., 1965–75, he increased his holding by £13,500,000 during the year 1947–48. And yet this was the one stock which determined the issue price of the Trans port Compensation Stock. Surely, even hon. Members opposite, when they are faced with this—that this one stock bought by the National Debt Commission was the one which would settle the compensation price for transport—might have qualms of conscience about what has been done. Is it not remarkable that the National Debt Commissioners independent of the Treasury, should choose this stock, which determined what happened in regard to Transport compensation? I find it hard to believe that coincidence could be quite so far-fetched.
What really I think hon. Members on this side of the House should note is, that while the Financial Secretary has tried to make out that we are pursuing a vendetta against the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the sins of which we are com- plaining have been committed after the Chancellor of the Duchy had resigned from the Government, and that it is the present Chancellor of the Exchequer who is responsible. I would like to know from some hon. Members opposite how it is justified that £8 million of this money was put into Transport Stock.
The Financial Secretary will no doubt answer that it is his job to provide a yield. If that is so, then I think he has to prove his balance. I have suggested to the Financial Secretary that it is impossible for more than half the funds to be held in long-dated stocks. The Economic White Paper of 1947–48 made it quite clear that within a few months of the cessation of American Aid we would have 1,500,000 unemployed in this country. That is the figure which the Financial Secretary has to face. He knows as well as I do that it may be that next April the American Congress will not help us again. That may be so. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said so a few days ago from that Box. Yet, is he going to tell the House that—and admittedly through no fault of his own—he could at short notice be faced with an unemployment figure of 1,500,000 and still has put all this money into stocks which are long term and irredeemable? Does he tell the House that only 50 per cent, of his money is fluid? It seems to me absolute nonsense, especially in view of the precarious way in which our economic life is poised. We should ensure that the money should be readily available to those who are entitled to receive it. For, should the Government or the Financial Secretary have to realise the securities of this Fund, not more than 50 per cent, can be realised near par, and the remainder only at a great capital loss. I hope we shall not allow further funds to go to the Treasury to be used as those under discussion have already been used.
Question put,
"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty praying that the Rules, dated 25th June, 1948, entitled the National Insurance and Civil Service (Superannuation) (Schemes and Funds) Rules, 1948 (S.I., 1948, No. 1407), a copy of which was presented on 28th June, be annulled."
The House divided: Ayes, 31; Noes, 146.
Division No. 267.] AYES. [11.34 p.m Bowen, R. Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley) Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Hollis, M. C. Touche, G. C Channon, H. Hurd, A. Turton, R. H. Conant, Maj. R. J. E. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H Wakefield, Sir W. W. Cooper-Key, E. M. Lennox-Boyd, A. T. Wheatley, Colonel M. J (Dorset, E.) Davidson, Viscountess Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. White, J. B. (Canterbury) Drayson, G. B Mackeson, Brig. H. R Willoughby do Eresby, Lord Drewe, C. Marsden, Capt. A. Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter Orr-Ewing, I. L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES: Fox, Sir G. Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. Sir John Mellor and Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M. Smith, E. P. (Ashford) Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre. Gage, C. Studholme, H. G. NOES. Adams, Richard (Balham) Grey, C. F. Paget, R. T. Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South) Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) Palmer, A. M F. Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly) Pargiter, G A. Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Guy, W. H Parkin, B. T. Alpass, J. H. Hale, Leslie Paton, J. (Norwich) Anderson, A. (Motherwell) Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil Perrins, W. Bacon, Miss A. Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R. Porter, G (Leeds) Baird, J. Hannan, W. (Maryhill) Pritt, D. N Barton, C. Hardy, E. A. Proctor, W T. Bechervaise, A. E. Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Pursey, Comdr. H Benson, G. Herbison, Miss M. Randall, H. E. Beswick, F. Hewitson, Capt. M. Reid, T. (Swindon) Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) Holman, P. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) Blenkinsop, A. Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth) Royle, C. Boardman, H. Hoy, J. Shackleton, E A. A Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Sharp, Granville Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.) Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens) Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge) Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme) Silverman, J. (Erdington) Bramall, E. A. Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) Simmons, C. J. Brook, D. (Halifax) Janner, B. Skeffington, A. M. Brown, T. J. (Ince) Jeger, G. (Winchester) Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S) Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St Pancras, S.E.) Steele, T. Champion, A. J. Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools) Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E) Coldrick, W. Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow) Stross, Dr B. Collindridge, F. Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) Stubbs, A. E Collins, V. J. Keenan, W. Syivester, G. O. Colman, Miss G. M. Kenyon, C. Symonds, A. L. Comyns, Dr. L. King, E. M. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.) Kinley, J. Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare) Corlett, Dr. J. Kirby, B. V. Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin) Crawley, A. Lee, F. (Hulme) Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) Daggar, G. Lee, Miss J. (Cannock) Weitzman, D. Davies, Edward (Burslem) Levy, B. W. Wells, P. L. (Faversham) Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.) Lewis, J. (Bolton) Wells, W. T. (Walsall) Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Lindgren, G. S. West, D. G. Deer, G. Longden, F. Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.) Delargy, H. J. Lyne, A. W White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Diamond, J. McLeavy, F. Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B Driberg, T. E. N. Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Willey, F. T. (Sunderland) Dumpleton, C. W Middleton, Mrs. L Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove) Dye, S. Mikardo, Ian Williams, W. R. (Heston) Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Millington, Wing-Comdr E. R Willis, E. Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel) Mitchison, G. R. Wills, Mrs. E. A. Ewart, R. Monslow, W. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A Farthing, W. J. Moody, A. S. Woods, G. S. Fraser, T. (Hamilton) Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.) Yates, V. F Freeman, J. (Watford) Nally, W. Gibson, C. W. Neal, H. (Clay Cross) TELLERS FOR THE NOES: Glanville, J. E. (Consett) Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford) Mr. Pearson and Goodrich, H E. Orbach, M. Mr. George Wallace.
Doctors (Selection of Patients)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Hannan. ]
11.40 p.m.
I wish to protest tonight about a minority of doctors who are discrediting and sabotaging the National Health Scheme. Already these doctors are creating a medical black market. Its object is precisely the same as that of every other black market, namely, the squalid one of obtaining a little more money at the expense of the community. I would say that this is the blackest black market of all, because such doctors are not trafficking in food, clothes, or street corner elastic, but in human sickness and suffering.
What are such doctors doing? First, there are those who refuse to take on their lists those people who are, they think, sufficiently well off to pay high fees. I am certain I need not remind hon. Members of examples of this sort, because from a number of conversations I have had in the past week I know that most hon. Members have had such examples. We have all had them in our constituencies.
It is common for a doctor to say to a person who has, he thinks, a sufficiently high income, "I am sorry I am not prepared to take you on my list. This scheme is not for such as you. You can afford to pay." Only this week a constituent of mine—perhaps I ought to say a right hon. constituent—told me how he and his wife had been refused whereas his grown-up daughters and son had been accepted. The doctor said to the daughter, "I will take you and your sister and brother, but I cannot take your mother and father because I think they can afford to pay." This is an immoral discrimination which is a disgrace to members of a great profession. Even worse are those doctors who are refusing to take patients because they need extra attention. Such people are the old, the sick and children. They are the kind of people who are being refused by doctors today.
I will quote an example. I heard of one household where every member except the old grandmother was taken on the doctor's list. Presumably she was refused because the doctor thought she might soon become bed-fast and need extra attention. I know of another case where doctors refused to take children presumably because children are liable to get childish ailments and need attention. I have here correspondence concerning a doctor and his patients in my constituency in Leeds. This is an actual letter written by the doctor to his patients,
In fact, those who need the National Health Service are being denied it just because they are most in need of it. I cannot think of anything that is more unworthy of a great calling than that a doctor should so choose his patients that those who need it most are denied his services—the old, the ailing, and those least able to pay.
Then there is the type of doctor who is more subtle, but no less sinister. He does not refuse outright to take a patient, but he says something of this description—"All right, I will take you if you wish, but, you know, you will not get the same attention as you used to do, and I cannot give you the same attention as I give to my paying patients. Moreover, when you come to see me you cannot come as you used to do, but you must sort of go to the side entrance, like a tradesman. Furthermore, I do not think that you will get the same drugs as you would have if you became my private paying patient." Very often, this trick works and the person pays up. I have several letters here showing that sort of thing. I have one letter from a doctor to a man in a country district. He says:
Unless we get rid of these two services—one for those who can pay and the other for those who cannot afford to pay—it means that we shall not gain the confidence of the people in the National Health Scheme. We want our scheme to be a national scheme, not a poverty scheme. I will not go now into what changes we could make in the Act—that would be out of Order—but I should like to ask the Minister what people can do in such circumstances. My right hon. Friend has condemned the action of such doctors as being "unethical," but I am afraid that will not have very much effect if being "ethical" means a lowering of the doctors' income. People are told to choose another doctor or to report these things to the executive council, and it will find another doctor for them. That sounds all right in theory but it is not so in practice. Many people cannot afford to pay and after being used to a particular doctor it is very difficult sometimes for them to change. Then, too, surely it is a little hard on the doctor who is really playing the game that he should have given to him all the difficult cases and those which need attention.
I should like to make one or two suggestions. First, will the Minister say that in any area where this is rampant, new doctors will be put in who will observe the Act much better than some doctors are doing now? Will he see that all facilities which the doctors provide will be at the disposal of all patients, and that there shall not be a private consulting room and a public consulting room. After all, we are going to compensate doctors for the whole of the value of their practice and not just for part of it. Surely it is right that if a doctor puts only a part of his practice at the disposal of the people who are entering the scheme, then he should only get part of the compensation for his practice when he retires.
What is going to happen to a doctor guilty of such behaviour? Will my right hon. Friend approach the B.M.A. to see if they can act in this matter? I believe that doctors are today losing many friends that they had in the past. Many people who opposed our health scheme in the last few months would today be in favour of a fully salaried service. This is bringing our great National Health Scheme, which is an example to the whole world, into ridicule and contempt. These tactics are a travesty of the humane spirit in which the Act was conceived. I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able tonight to give some idea of what he is attempting to do to get rid of this position.
11.56 p.m.
I believe I shall be expressing the view of most hon. Members when I say that the practices which have been described by my hon. Friend are carried on by a very small percentage of the medical profession, and that the vast majority of doctors are playing the game. The fact that some 36,000,000 people have already enrolled on lists is evidence that over vast areas of the country, and with regard to the great majority of the profession, things are running smoothly and the doctors are behaving properly. There is evidence that in many cases doctors are going out of their way to give facilities to their patients, and also to arrange to see their patients in their own homes.
What we have to say, therefore, concerns a minority of the profession. That should be made perfectly clear at the outset. It would be extremely evil if the majority of the profession were besmirched because of the conduct of a small number. I also take this opportunity of saying, as I think hon. Members in all parts of the House will agree, that the transition on 5th July has been carried out with remarkable smoothness, and a vast administrative change-over has taken place with very little friction and dislocation. I venture to say that so great an administrative feat could not have been carried out in any other nation in the world as was carried out in this country on 5th July.
It is true that some doctors have been misbehaving themselves, and that their conduct is frowned upon, and regarded as intolerable, by the vast majority of the medical profession. If you look at the newspapers you will see that doctors are writing in and rebuking their colleagues for the conduct that has been described. Where a doctor selects members of a family, where for example he accepts mother and children but leaves the father out because he is a sick man, where he takes the younger members of the family and refuses the older members, that is wholly reprehensible, and indeed cuts right across our conception of a family doctor. The whole idea of a family doctor is that he shall be the doctor of the whole family, and that he shall not select, either on grounds of convenience or finance, certain members of the family to go on his list. Further, I should like to make it clear that it was always understood that the scales of remuneration for the profession were drawn up on the assumption that nearly all the population would be in the scheme.
It is interesting to reflect that so generous have been the payments under the scheme to the general practitioners that 99 per cent. of the population will have a lower standard of remuneration than the general practitioner. So that where the doctor tells a potential patient that he can afford to pay, he is in most cases saying that to a person whose income is lower than his own. It is really quite intolerable that we should have a situation in which a doctor is able to say to a patient that he can go on paying fees, when that person's standard of living is very much lower than that of the doctor refusing the patient. So there is no justification whatever on financial grounds for this discrimination.
I should also like to make it quite clear, because there seems to be misunderstanding in some quarters about it, that if a person remains as a private patient, that person will also have to pay for drugs. That of itself, may have a chastening effect as time goes by. When individuals find that, having become private patients, they not only have to pay the doctor himself, but have to pay the chemist's bills as well, and as that knowledge grows, it may be that the area of private practice will progressively diminish.
There are, of course, certain sanctions under the Act that can be applied. In my view, where doctors have said that they are unable to take people on their lists, but insist upon their being private patients, or insist upon their paying fees, that area can be regarded as under-doctored; because the measure of whether an area is under-doctored or over-doctored is, whether there are enough doctors in the public service, not in the private service, in the area. Therefore, where it happens that people are not able to obtain doctors in the public service because certain doctors in that area are behaving in the manner described, it is open to the Medical Practices Committee to regard that area as under-doctored, and to throw it open to other doctors to enter it. That, of course, is a matter for the Medical Practices Committee. But I myself regard it as being one of its functions to pay attention to this particular matter.
Furthermore, it is obligatory upon the doctor to provide adequate facilities for his patients, and it will not be regarded as proper conduct if a doctor provides facilities for his private patients that are superior to those he provides for his public patients. The regulations are perfectly clear on that matter. I believe that this Debate itself will serve a very valuable purpose in calling the attention of doctors to this. I myself would regard any marked difference in the standards of accommodation available to State and to private patients as being incompatible with the regulations, and I am asking executive councils to look into this matter immediately, so that there will be no discrimination of this sort.
This scheme, of course, is a great one. It is only just beginning. We must expect some growing pains, and we must expect that it will take some time for some of the doctors to accommodate their views and their values to the new conception that will, we trust, become universal. I hope that the discussion that has taken place tonight will throw some light on this. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising it, and I believe that, as the months go by, we shall have less cause to complain about the behaviour of a small minority of the medical profession.
12.5 a.m.
It is interesting that the matter of possible unethical conduct on the part of what the Minister himself agrees is a small minority of the medical profession should have been raised here tonight. It is, of course, a little unfortunate that the first place in which these matters should be ventilated is on the Floor of the House of Commons instead of through the machinery which has been set up under the Act. It is to prevent these political discussions on the Floor of the House that the machinery was devised, because the greatest danger will arise if these grievances are ventilated in the first place on the Floor of the House.
The right hon. and gallant Gentleman will have seen in the course of the last week or so in "The Times," the "Manchester Guardian" and in local newspapers in all parts of the country grievances being raised, and it is appropriate that they should now be raised in the House of Commons; otherwise the public would feel the House of Commons was not doing its duty.
No doubt the Minister will agree that the machinery set up to discuss these matters was laid down by the Act which he sponsored, and there is a danger when arguments, which are merely ex parte statement, are made on the Floor of the House in a short Adjournment Debate and when the machinery of investigation provided by the Act has not been employed. The Minister himself said that a scheme of this size will have growing pains and it will require a certain amount of running in. Clearly the cases which have been cited, in spite of what may have been said, will undoubtedly be taken as not applying to part but to the whole of the profession. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The hon. Member for North-East Leeds (Miss Bacon) drew attention to the fact that she considered that public opinion was turning against the medical profession. The very fact that we have to carry on this discussion under difficult conditions is an instance of the fact that the machinery provided should be the first thing to be employed.
The Minister agrees with that, and that is why I say it is impossible to discuss the cases which have been instanced, because it might be a case of unethical conduct or it might be because there were insufficient facilities for those who come under the scheme. On the other hand, the question of selection brings one down to the difficulty placed often upon doctor and patient. The association between doctor and patient is valued by both of them, and that is certainly so in the case of the family doctor. However, even as individuals we often find in a family members to whom we might take exception, and that might happen in the medical profession as well as anywhere else. The Minister has said that if a patient were unable to get on to any of the lists of a doctor in his locality that clearly would be an under-doctored area. The difficulty is, of course, that the remedy for a patient who cannot get on to a doctor's lists is to try to get on to the list of another doctor. As the Minister has said, the great majority of the profession are available to the—
The fact that the great majority of doctors have joined—
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock on Monday evening and the Debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Ten Minutes after Twelve o'Clock.