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Commons Chamber

Volume 454: debated on Wednesday 28 July 1948

House of Commons

Wednesday, July 28, 1948

The House met at Half past Two o'Clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair ]

Private Business

London County Council (General Powers) Bill

Standing Order 208 suspended; Lords Amendments to the Bill to be considered forthwith.—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]

Lords Amendments considered accordingly, and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Anglo-French Social Security Agreement

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the French text of the Agreement with France on Social Security, France No. 2 (1948), has not been published in French, but only in English whereas both the English and French texts are given of the Cultural Convention with France, Treaty Series No. 36, 1948; and whether the French text of the Agreement on Social Security can be made available to Members of Parliament and the general public.

In the interests of economy, it is the usual practice to publish only the English text of such Agreements as will be presented to Parliament before ratification. When ratifications of the Agreement in question have been exchanged, the English and French texts will be published together in the Treaty Series of Parliamentary Papers.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise how important it is that French clarity should penetrate and elucidate English obscurity in all these texts?

Yugoslavs (Repatriation)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will give the names of the Yugoslavs who are to be forcibly repatriated to Yugoslavia; and whether he will state shortly the reasons in each case for his decision.

I will, with permission, circulate the names of the men in the OFFICIAL REPORT. They are being repatriated because a prima facie case of wilful and active collaboration has been established against them.

As I could not hear the reply, may I ask my right hon. Friend, first of all, if he can inform the House how many times these persons appeared before the investigating committee?

I cannot change my mind on this problem, because those who have been complaining have given me no evidence to warrant my altering the opinion at which I have arrived.

That is all very well, but is my right hon. Friend aware that letters sent to me about these people were held up for three weeks in his office, giving me no opportunity to investigate these cases? Surely, from the knowledge which he has, he must be able to tell the House whether they appeared once, twice or three times before the investigating committee?

On a point of Order. If I cannot have a reply, I shall raise this matter if I have the opportunity of catching your eye tonight, Mr. Speaker.

Following are the names:

1, Salih Baljic; 2, Zivan Kuvezdic; 3, Vlaho Lovric; 4, Jurica Markovic; 5, Muharem Mutavelic.

Palestine

State of Israel

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he now proposes to recognise the State of Israel.

I have nothing to add to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend on 9th June.

As the Jewish State has now been in existence for two and a half months—[HON. MEMBERS: "NO."]—and is not claiming any frontiers beyond those agreed upon by the General Assembly of the United Nations, can my hon. Friend say what further conditions he would require before agreeing to recognise this State?

Is there any evidence that the Government of Israel are able to control the illegal terrorist organisations like Irgun, which would be the first condition of their recognition?

May I ask my right hon. Friend why, in view of the fact that the United Nations organisation has stated categorically that it recognises the Provisional Government of Israel, which obviously means the State of Israel, and many other nations have recognised that State, which has done so remarkably well, he does not now recognise it?

I repeat my answer in response to the previous question, and from that I am not prepared to depart.

In view of the fact that the newly restored State of Israel is already the most powerful and progressive State in the Middle East—it has withstood the combined onslaught of all the Arab States—could not the right hon. Gentleman try to assist the Arab States to face up to the reality of the position by granting it a de facto recognition now and leaving a de jure recognition until a later date?

Government Policy

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give an assurance that it is still the policy of His Majesty's Government not to be a party to the enforcement of any solution in Palestine which is unacceptable to either Arabs or Jews.

There has been no change in the policy of His Majesty's Government. We are still working for a settlement in Palestine based upon the acquiescence of both the Arabs and the Jews.

Jewish Immigration

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Arab States have made it clear that unlimited and uncontrolled Jewsh immigration into Palestine will bring about a grave deterioration in the situation in the Middle East; and what steps His Majesty's representative on the Security Council is taking to underline this danger and suggest a remedy for this problem.

This argument was presented to the Security Council in a recent communication from the Arab League. It has always been the view of His Majesty's Government that the tension in Palestine would be considerably reduced if effective action could be taken on an international scale for the permanent settlement of European displaced persons. We will continue actively supporting measures of this kind. We are also gravely concerned by the problem of Arab refugees displaced from the Jewish-controlled parts of Palestine.

Is the Foreign Secretary aware that more than 300,000 Arab men, women and children have been rendered homeless by the military operations of the Zionists during the last few months; and is he further aware that if Zionist immigration into Palestine is uncontrolled, it can have a most disastrous effect on the whole situation in the Middle East?

With regard to the question of immigration, that will depend on the final settlement which is now in the hands of the Mediator. With regard to the terrible situation in which the Arabs find themselves after being displaced from their homes in Jewish controlled Palestine, we are taking up that matter with the Security Council today.

With regard to the last supplementary question, is it not a fact that the Arabs who have been displaced in Palestine were so displaced as the result of invasion by Arab forces; and, further, will my right hon. Friend say whether there is any hope of a planned exchange of population for those Arabs, on the one hand, and, on the other, for Jews in Arab countries like Egypt who are at present being treated not very differently from the way they were treated in Nazi Germany?

As regards the exchange of population, that is a matter which will depend on the final settlement. As a matter of fact, there were no Arab forces in Haifa, Tel-Aviv, or Jaffa.

Oil Supplies

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the estimated loss of oil to the United Kingdom as a result of the situation in Palestine; and what arrangements he has made or contemplates making with the authorities in Haifa regarding the handling and processing of oil.

The interruption of work at the Haifa refinery has reduced world production of refined petroleum products by an annual rate of four million tons. Very little of this oil is normally imported into the United Kingdom, but the United Kingdom will naturally be affected by the reduction in world supply. It would be premature for me to make any further statement until more is known of the results of the efforts of the Mediator.

Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the cutting off of the oil supplies from Kirkuk to Haifa has already had the effect of retarding the recovery of Europe, and that unless strenuous efforts are made to re-open this pipeline the effect will be even worse?

We shall have to take alternative means if we cannot re-open the pipeline. We cannot let Europe suffer.

Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that British technical experts have stated that these refineries are now being worked efficiently, and could be made to produce the maximum yield if only His Majesty's Government would grant de facto recognition to the State of Israel?

The granting of de facto recognition to Israel would not bring oil from Iraq which is in the hands of the Arabs.

Will the British Government take adequate steps to secure the proper independent working of this important refinery before final evacuation takes place?

There are only 20,000 tons of stock there; that is all that is being worked.

Brussels Treaty (U.S.A. and Canada)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the accession of the United States and Canada to the permanent military committee set up by the Treaty of Brussels.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to my hon. Friend, the Member for Norwood(Mr. Chamberlain) on 26th July.

Will my right hon. Friend say whether the occupation of a substantial part of East Anglia by United States B.29 aeroplanes is a permanent or only a temporary part of the Agreement and the discussions referred to in the Question?

Germany

Steel Works, Ruhr (Dismantling)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply has been given to the Ruhr steel owners who have stated that they will no longer co-operate in dismantlement with the British authorities.

As no such statement has been made to me or to the British authorities in Germany, the Question does not arise.

As it was stated in a responsible organ of the Press that these men had done what is said in the Question, will my right hon. Friend arrange for his Department to deny Press statements not founded on fact?

I am afraid that it I tried to do that I should have to increase my staff. Every day misstatements are made. and the only thing I can rely upon is the intelligence of hon. Members to dissect the truth.

Nuremberg Findings (Trials)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many Germans in the British zone remain for trial under the Nuremberg findings on whom sentence of death may be pronounced if found guilty; and how many have so far been hanged for the same reasons.

The only persons brought to trial in the British zone as a result of the Nuremberg findings are members of the organisations declared criminal by the International Military Tribunal. The maximum penalty in such cases laid down by Article V of Military Government Ordinance No. 69 is 10 years' imprisonment, possibly with fines and confiscation of property in addition. The answer to both parts of the Question is therefore, "None, Sir."

I could not hear that reply either, but will my right hon. Friend say whether he is aware that the Americans have some 350 Germans whom they have condemned to death and have not hanged, and, presumably, do not propose to hang, and, that being so, is it not nonsense that we should go on hanging people by the half dozen? Would it not be a good thing if we did the same as the Americans?

I have really answered the Question. If my hon. Friend wishes to ask another Question, it ought to be on the Order Paper.

I heard the Minister say that that supplementary question ought to be on the Order Paper, as, really, it should be. The Minister refused to answer it, and, therefore, I called the next Question.

On a point of Order. In view of the indifference of this House to human life—

That must be withdrawn. This House must not be accused of indifference to human life; that is entirely wrong. One must not make charges of that sort against the House of Commons.

I did not mean to make a charge of indifference to human life against the House of Commons, but merely to say that it appears to be indifferent. May I give notice that I shall also raise this matter tonight?

Air Transport, Berlin

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent Soviet activities in the air corridor between Berlin and the West are interfering with the air transport of food and fuel.

The airlift of food and fuel has not been affected by these activities, which have been of a minor nature.

Austria (Occupation Costs)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that the Austrian Government is still responsible for the costs of occupation in Austria; and whether, in view of the fact that it is not the fault of the people that the Occupation Forces have to remain, he will relieve them of the cost of the British occupation.

Occupation costs are still a serious financial burden on the Austrian Government. As the House will know, His Majesty's Government have striven for the past two years to bring the occupation to an end by the conclusion of a treaty that will guarantee Austria's political and economic integrity. Unfortunately, this has not yet been achieved. I do not believe however that the Austrians would wish to see British forces depart in advance of those of the other occupying Powers; and I regret that in our present financial situation we are unable to contemplate any sterling commitments in regard to the costs of our troops in Austria. I would, at the same time, point out that the British High Commissioner has so far refrained from drawing any of our allocation of occupation costs for the current year. I would also assure my hon. Friend that I shall continue to keep this matter in mind.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for the great attempt he has made to remove all Occupation Forces, and recognising the fact that, of course, the Austrians want us there, and also knowing that they will be very grateful for the action he has taken, may I ask him if he is aware that we have 200 million schillings in the National Austrian Bank which could be called upon, without using any sterling, to pay for our occupation costs, and that, if we could remove our troops completely, it would be a tremendous encouragement to the Austrians, who feel in a very vulnerable position today in view of the

Have not the Americans remitted the cost of their occupation and could not we follow their example?

World Communism (U.S.A. Document)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will obtain from the Government of the U.S.A. a supply of House Document 619, "The Strategy and Tactics of World Communism," and place this in the Library.

Is the Foreign Secretary aware that the information contained in this remarkable book applies quite as much to Britain as to America? Will he ask the Prime Minister to read it and, instead of fiddling about with the Civil Service, to take some effective steps to outlaw Communism in this country?

On a point of Order. Is it in Order for a Member of this House to advertise his own publication?

It should be remembered that one of the Rules in Erskine May is that Questions should not be put in order to advance a particular point of view. That should be borne in mind.

On a point of Order. May I assure you, Sir, that this is a publication by the Government of America? It has nothing to do with me.

I do not think I said it had. I merely stated what Erskine May says. That is all.

On a point of Order. The hon. Lady charged my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) with furthering the sales of his own publication. I do not think my hon. Friend can be identified with the Government of America.

I really have not got to the bottom of this myself. I did not hear any charge made. The hon. Lady only asked for a Ruling on the Question.

I understood the hon. Lady to ask whether it was in Order for an hon. Member to advertise his own publication.

Would the right hon. Gentleman encourage Members on both sides of the House to read this publication, as it contains full copies of a great many very valuable Marxist classics which might educate hon. Members?

I do not know whether Marx really educated anybody. What he did was to confuse me, and I now do not know whether the interpretation by Lenin or by Hyndman is correct.

Is the Minister aware that at this very moment I am writing a book on the philosophy of Communism, and that the right hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) has read a part of it and approved it? When it is finished I will send a copy to the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) in the hope that it will stimulate his moribund mentality.

Bulgaria (Socialist Deputies)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what protest has been made to the Bulgarian Government under the clause in the Peace Treaty providing for freedom of political associations in view of the recent arrest of Kosta Lulchev and a large number of former associates of the late Nikola Petkov.

It seems that these deputies are not under arrest but may be under restraint in the provinces. If this is so these Socialists, who represent the last vestige of the opposition in the Bulgarian Assembly, will in effect have been prevented from carrying out their political duty, despite the terms of Article 2 of the Peace Treaty. Unfortunately, as the House is aware, this is not the first time that the Bulgarian Government have chosen to disregard their signature on that Treaty.

Instead of concentrating upon these abstract books on the subject of Communism, will my right hon. Friend enable the working class and the Members of this House to realise what murderous hypocrites Communists are in all these countries, and that in Bulgaria all the Socialist Members of Parliament are now under restraint?

I quite agree that the Opposition in Bulgaria have been wiped out. Indeed, I think if the Communist Party got power in this country, the lives of many hon. Members on my side of the House would be shorter probably than the lives of hon. Members opposite.

Does my right hon. Friend remember that the whole of this campaign from which we are now suffering in regard to the Communists, was directed against the Jesuits in this country in exactly the same manner?

Poland (Eastern Frontier)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the decision to divide Poland by making her Eastern frontier conform to the Curzon line taken at the Teheran Conference in December, 1943, was not published until after the Yalta Conference in 1944.

Has my right hon. Friend read the statement recently issued by Mr. Mikolajczyk, in which he says that when he arrived in Moscow in 1944 he was told by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) that he had already agreed to the partition of Poland at Teheran a year previously, and are we to understand that that was a mis-statement?

I am sorry, I have not read Mr. Mikolajczyk's statement. I have looked up the records of the Conference referred to, and I cannot find any such decision taken at that Conference.

Can my right hon. Friend say why the right hon. Member for Woodford told that to Mr. Mikolajczyk in 1944?

On a point of Order. I wish to give notice that I shall raise this matter at an early opportunity.

Nyasaland (Race Segregation)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies in how many post offices in Nyasaland there are separate entrances for Africans and Europeans; and if he will take steps to ensure that common entrances are provided in future.

In eight of the 44 post offices in Nyasaland there were separate entrances for Africans and Europeans, but the notices reading "Europeans only" have now been removed. As regards the second part of the Question, I am informed by the Governor that steps will be taken to ensure that there are no grounds for complaints of racial discrimination in post offices in Nyasaland, and that all new post offices will be constructed with common entrances.

SARAWAK (Mr. ANTHONY BROOKE)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he proposes to lift the embargo on Mr. Anthony Brooke visiting Sarawak.

The reasons for this embargo still hold good and I am, therefore, not able to say when it can be lifted.

Are the Government so distrustful of their policy and so uncertain of its results that they are frightened to let this young man go back to his own people? It may be expediency but it is not democracy.

This matter was fully debated on 18th February, and the Government's reasons were then given.

Is the feeling about this matter still so acute in Sarawak that the danger of the visit is as great now as it was on 18th February?

I would say that the danger is not as great; but it has not entirely disappeared.

Uganda (Electricity Board)

asked the Secretary for the Colonies what are the names of the members of the newly formed Uganda Electricity Board; what are their qualifications; and what are their salaries.

As the answer is long, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can the Minister say how many appointments to this Board represent "jobs for the boys"?

The hon. Member was making an imputation and an insinuation, which was not relevant to the Question.

Does the answer give any information about the nature of this Board? Is it a public corporation? Is the electricity supply nationalised?

The Question asks the names and the qualifications of the members, and that, of course, is what the answer relates to.

Following is the answer:

The members are Mr. C. R. Westlake (Chairman), the Financial Secretary or his representative, the Director of Public Works, Sir John Kennedy, Mr. H. R. Fraser, Mr. A. N. Maini and Mr. C. H. Bird.

Mr. Westlake and Sir John Kennedy are engineers of wide experience. The former was General Manager and Engineer of the Electricity Department of the Finchley Corporation, and is the author of the Uganda Electricity Survey Report which recommended public control of electric power in Uganda and the Owen Falls hydro-electric scheme. Sir John Kennedy, who was senior partner of a well-known firm of consulting engineers for many years, has served as President of the Institution of Electrical Engineers and is a former Deputy Chairman of the Electricity Commission. The three remaining named members are well-known business men and members of the Legislative Council. They have served on many advisory boards and committees in Uganda.

Mr. Westlake's salary as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer is £2,500 per annum. Sir John Kennedy is not receiving any remuneration, and the remaining three members of the Board are receiving an allowance at the rate of £200 per annum each. The Director of Public Works and the Financial Secretary as ex officio members receive no additional remuneration.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why, under the resolution of the Uganda Legislative Council setting up an Electricity Board, private individuals are prohibited from installing their own generating plant.

Private persons are not prohibited from installing their own generating plant provided that they obtain a licence from the Uganda Electricity Board.

Does that therefore mean that the Uganda Electricity monopoly is in fact an even more severe monopoly than that prevailing in Britain?

Malaya

Police Forces (Amalgamation)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the present local situation in Malaya, he will amalgamate the Federated Malay States and the Singapore police forces.

Nothing is being left undone to ensure complete understanding and co-operation between the two forces, but to amalgamate them would not lead to greater efficiency.

Could the Minister really give the House an assurance that the existence of two forces trying to do one job does not mitigate against the efficiency of the whole effort?

While there are two Governments, two legislative councils and two executive councils, it is thought that it is more efficient to have two police forces.

Arms and Ammunition (Supplies)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the inadequate supplies of ammunition at Jerantut Police Station which was recently raided by terrorists in Malaya; that other police stations still only have some 40 rounds per rifle and that whilst some rubber estates have been issued with rifles and munitions they have no Verey signals or other similar equipment; and whether he can give an assurance that the necessary supplies are being flown out without delay to Malaya to repair such deficiencies.

I understand that the loss of Jerantut Police Station was not due to lack of ammunition. The police were greatly outnumbered by the attackers. The authorities in Malaya are satisfied that the quantity of ammunition issued to police constables is adequate. Verey lights have been found to be unsuitable for signalling from rubber estates and other similarly heavily wooded areas, but other methods of signalling are now being tried. As my right hon. Friend assured the House on 23rd July, supplies of arms and other necessary equipment have been flown to Malaya; and I am satisfied that, with the substantial supplies made available from Army stocks, the requirements of the Malayan administration are being met.

Is the Minister aware that, while he may be satisfied, the public in Malaya and in this country are by no means satisfied that sufficient ammunition and protective material of all sorts is available, and will he really answer the Question whether adequate supplies are now being flown out?

In the view of my right hon. Friend and myself adequate supplies are being made available to the Malayan Government.

Is the hon. Member aware that some of us are receiving letters even today from planters and others who say that they are expected to defend their rubber estates without arms and without ammunition, and that they can neither buy the arms nor the ammunition, nor get it issued to them? Is he aware that that is the situation at this moment?

We are trying to do what we can to supply the planters with arms, but the main responsibility for law and order must rest on the police and the military.

When the hon. Member says: "We are trying to do what we can," does that imply that there is some obstacle to prevent him from doing it?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the European staffs of rubber estates in Malaya are unable to obtain arms and ammunition for self-defence, that they are cabling to their boards of management in the United Kingdom for the despatch of suitable weapons; and what steps are being taken by the Government to provide planters with the necessary means of defence.

Arms and ammunition have been and are being distributed to planters, and the Malayan Government is making every effort to ensure that all persons in areas threatened by terrorist gangs have the means of defending themselves. The main responsibility, however, for maintaining law and order must remain with the police force and the army, both of which are being strengthened.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that only a few days ago a long-established rubber company in Edinburgh had a cable from their acting general manager urging that arms should be supplied? Will he do everything possible to get arms out there for such people?

We are doing everything possible, and have supplied a very large amount of arms and ammunition already, partly for the planters, but mainly for the Army and the police.

Armed Guards

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why, in spite of previous representations from Malayan Collieries, Limited, an adequate guard was not provided for the Batu Arang Colliery in Selangor; and whether steps are now being taken to see that troops are available at this and similar vulnerable points.

Troops which were intended for Batu Arang were diverted for an emergency task elsewhere. The attack occurred before other arrangements could be completed. Troops are now stationed at Batu Arang. Guards of troops or police for other vital places have been arranged. Guards for vulnerable places are being provided as far as possible, and the question is kept under constant review by the civil and military authorities. It is often preferable to guard vulnerable places by means of offensive patrols in their vicinity, and this action is being taken wherever it is deemed necessary.

Is the hon. Member aware that the answers to these Questions show the complete inadequacy of the way in which this has been handled; and is he further aware that the insurance world is about to take steps to raise the rates of insurance and alter the terms of insurance in such a way that the even flow of goods which bring dollars to us from Malaya will be severely harmed? Will he get into touch with the insurance world to see if this is not the acid test of his inadequacy and if the results are not about to burst on the whole world?

I am also aware that the production of rubber in June was up to the average.

Can the Minister say how many employees there are at Batu Arang and how many of them are Europeans?

Would the hon. Member answer my question about getting into touch with the insurance world to find out?

Would my hon. Friend give an assurance that he will take every step to prevent the political frustration in Malaya which was created by the Opposition in Ireland and in India?

Would the hon. Member confirm what was said by his right hon. Friend that this movement in Malaya has nothing whatever to do with political frustration or economic conditions, but is established to be a Communist plot to seize power?

I do not need to confirm what my right hon. Friend said. What he said is on record.

War Damage Claims

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now make any further statement about the payment of urgent war damage claims to private individuals in Malaya; to what extent such payments are being held upon the ground of possible inflation; and whether arrangements can now be made to pay out in full in all cases where hardship has been suffered and where it can be shown that the amount to be paid is mainly to replace money already spent or borrowed and therefore a payment not involving any inflation.

I would invite my hon. Friend's attention to the answer which my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans) on 14th July. Further information has since been received from which it is clear that considerable preparatory work still remains to be done in Malaya before a scheme of compensation can be put into effect. A further statement will be made at the earliest possible moment. It is the need to complete this preparatory work and not the fear of local inflation which has prevented payments from being made hitherto, and since the preparatory work is necessary in relation to all classes of claims, the third part of the Question does not arise.

Would my hon. Friend make a further statement before the House rises, particularly in view of the extreme hardship which is being experienced in some of these cases.

I cannot say that we shall be ready to make such a statement before the House rises.

Is the hon. Member saying that three years after the end of the Japanese war the Government are still unable to pay out any claim whatever, although many of these claims were incurred seven or eight years ago? Is that the position?

That is just the point. It is because they were incurred seven or eight years ago that it has been so very difficult to assess them. I may point out that there were 85,000 claims.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the total number and the value of Malayan war damage claims; how many of these and of what value are made by non-Malayans, and by Malayans, respectively; and what percentage of value of the total is the latter.

Approximately 85,000 claims have been submitted amounting to £150,000,000, which the Commissioner estimates will be reduceable to £58,000,000 on assessment within his terms of reference. The information asked for in the second and third parts of the Question is not available as claimants were not required to state their nationality.

Can the Minister say whether a substantial number of the claimants are Malays, as against those who are British, and can he say whether the money will stay in the country instead of being taken out of the country?

I could not say what the proportion is because we have no statistics on that. No question was asked as to their nationality.

Is it not a fact there is a great difference between a Malay and a Malayan? Malayans might include Chinese, and are not all these people who are giving trouble Chinese?

Film (Ban)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the authorities in Malaya have withdrawn the film, "A Tale of Two Cities," on the grounds that it is inadvisable to screen the film for the time being; and whether he will explain the objection to the showing of this film.

I have seen Press reports that the authorities in Singapore have decided that it is inadvisable for the time being to allow the film to which the hon. Member refers to be shown. I am in communication with the Governor on the subject and will write to the hon. Member.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that the probable reason is that this film, based on a story written by Charles Dickens depicts the struggle of the French people for their freedom in the 18th century, and that it may be that the Malayans would see an identity with their own struggle today? Is that the reason why this film is not being shown?

Would my hon. Friend consider publishing his reply in HANSARD rather than circulating it privately to the hon. Member?

Would it not be very much better to leave a little matter like this entirely to the discretion of the people on the spot? Is there any need at all for the Under-Secretary of State to make inquiry into this to please the hon. Member?

Could not "The Iron Curtain" be shown in substitution for "A Tale of Two Cities"?

Can we take it now that as far as this country is concerned, Charles Dickens is to be regarded as a fellow traveller?

If this "little thing" is petty enough in one way, is it not true that it is a straw which shows which way the wind blows? Does not this show that the men responsible for that kind of action are not big enough for the job they have in hand?

Murdered British Subjects (Compensation)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that Mr. D. A. Allison, who served in the British Army through the 1914–18 war, during which he lost an eye, was taken prisoner by the Japanese in 1941 and tortured by them, and who lost his property and personal belongings through the invasion of Sumatra where he had remained to supervise the destruction of his rubber factory and machinery, has recently been murdered by terrorists whilst serving as manager of the Sungei Siput rubber plantations in Malaya; and whether, in view of the loss which his wife and dependants have suffered, he proposes to provide them with some special compensation.

I heard with deep regret of the murder of Mr. D. A. Allison in Malaya on the 16th June. The question of compensation is covered by my reply today to the hon. and gallant Member's Question No. 39.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether compensation will be payable to the wives and families of planters and other persons murdered in the recent outbreaks in Malaya; and on what basis.

My right hon. Friend will ask the Government of the Federation of Malaya whether any scheme of compensation is proposed.

As we are presumably responsible for the security of Malaya, surely we are also responsible for our failure to protect the lives of our own people in Malaya; and, therefore, if they are murdered, due to our own weakness, surely we are responsible for providing some compensation for their widows and families?

On a point of Order. All that we could hear in this part of the House during the last six or seven answers was a gentle murmur. We should like to be provided with some means by which hon. Members can make themselves heard.

In view of the fact that the Malayans are also British subjects, will the wives and families of Malayans who have been murdered by the authorities there also receive compensation?

Did the hon. Gentleman say "murdered by the authorities"? That means by our people. He must not say that our authorities murder people; that is out of Order.

May I point out, with very great respect, Mr. Speaker, that we are speaking not only of one side who are British subjects; the Malayans, too, are subjects of His Majesty, and both are our people?

Our authorities are our authorities, and if they deal justice to one side, it is not right to say that they have murdered them. The hon. Gentleman must not say that they have murdered them. I direct him to withdraw that allegation against our British soldiers and British authorities.

Who will make me sit down? I must say that if any hon. Member would like to make me sit down let him come over here. The point I want to raise is this: I agree with you, Mr. Speaker, on that particular point, but do not the accusations arise from the fact that Members on the other side continually insist that our comrades and colleagues in Malaya are murderers and are committing murders. We repudiate that. If they will withdraw their accusations against our comrades and colleagues, I will advise my comrade here to withdraw his accusation?

That is not the point. After all, we may accuse other people of being murderers, but our own people are being accused of being murderers—our soldiers and our authorities, those acting under our orders. It is not a question of other countries; it is our British authorities who are being attacked, and I must direct the hon. Gentleman to withdraw that statement.

In view of your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, may I substitute the word "kill" for "murder"—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] That is the way that it has been reported in "The Times" and other responsible newspapers, and, therefore, may I substitute the word "kill" for "murder"?

On a point of Order. I asked Question No. 38 and the answer referred to Question No. 39. I got a non-committal answer to Question No. 39, and I then put certain specific questions to the hon. Gentleman to which he has made no reply whatever. May I have a reply?

The primary responsibility for law and order rests on the Government of the Federation of Malaya, and before any scheme of compensation, such as is suggested, can possibly be entertained, we must have their views upon it.

Will the Minister treat this matter as one of some urgency, and keep Mrs. Allison informed as to the course of negotiations? It is a pathetic case.

Colonial Empire

Staffs (Salaries and Pensions)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will consider adopting the principle of not placing on the British taxpayer in future any financial responsibility for the numbers of, or payment of, the salaries, allowances or pensions of, Colonial staffs, even if, in addition to the large monetary gifts made to colonies by Britain before and since 1939, further monetary gifts have to be made to Colonies unable to pay their way.

Apart from a few centrally administered Services, the payment of salaries and allowances of Colonial staffs is the direct responsibility of the Colonial Governments concerned, and my right hon. Friend sees no reason to depart from this position.

I am sorry, but owing to the noise I could not hear the whole answer. May I ask my hon. Friend if, as a matter of principle, he will realise the danger of the British Government undertaking payments of salaries, expatriation allowances and such things? Will he appreciate that even if Colonies need help, the responsibility for administering those Colonies should be left entirely to the Colonial Governments?

Does the hon. Member agree that the other leg also has a boot on it, inasmuch as the Colonies in the last eight years have sold vast quantities of food and other produce to this country at far below world prices?

Development Plans

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what long-term development plans are being considered as a result of the recommendations made by the Minister of Pensions after his recent tour of Africa.

The report made a number of recommendations, and I fear I cannot give an account of them within the limits of a reply to a Question. I can, however, assure the hon. Member that they are all being followed up and will have a valuable effect on the economic development of the territories concerned over the next few years.

In view of the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said no decision had yet been reached, can the Parliamentary Secretary give any idea when a decision will be reached on these recommendations?

I understand that a decision has already been reached in the last few days on some of them.

I cannot give an answer to that question without consulting my right hon. Friend.

Seychelles (Administration)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the committal for contempt of court of the Acting Attorney-General of the Seychelles and the expunging from the files of derogatory remarks made by him to the Chief Justice; and if he will institute a full inquiry into the administration of the island.

The Acting Chief Justice of Seychelles made an order in the Supreme Court on 16th July placing the Acting Attorney-General in contempt. The order was made in the absence of the Acting Attorney-General, and was rescinded three days later on the Judge's receiving an apology from him. The correspondence to which the hon. Member refers contained minutes addressed to the Chief Justice by the Acting Attorney-General, for which the latter apologised, and also minutes by the Acting Chief Justice to the Governor to which the Governor took exception. Both parties having tendered their apologies, the Governor expunged all the offending minutes.

As regards the last part of the Question, I see no reason to institute an inquiry into the administration of the Island, but the particular situation revealed by the events I have described is receiving my attention.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Chief Justice referred to the action of the Acting Attorney-General as "topsy-turvydom in excelsis"?

As everyone seems to have apologised to everyone else, I think the matter had better rest there.

Falkland Islands (Information Officer)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why an information officer has been appointed to the Falkland Islands where there is a population of under 3,000; what salary is being paid; and whether his duties will include the publication or editorship of a local paper.

My right hon. Friend attaches importance to the provision of adequate information services in every Colony, and the appointment in the Falkland Islands is necessary principally to meet the expanding needs of the local broadcasting system and to organise broadcasts to schools, as well as to edit the local newspaper. The salary of the present holder of this appointment is £440 per annum.

Would my hon. Friend say whether there is any truth in the report that suggested that he should take over the duties of editor of the local newspaper?

Gold Coast Inquiry (Findings)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement on the findings of the Sachs Commission of Inquiry in the Gold Coast, and the action taken as a result of the Report of the Commission.

As the statement is rather long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The Report is in the hands of my right hon. Friend. I am not able to say exactly when it may be in the hands of the House.

Following is the statement: In August, 1946, a Commission was appointed by the Governor to inquire into the conduct and management of the Supplies Department and the Customs Department of the Gold Coast in regard to the operation of wartime control in respect of import licences and allocation of supplies, and to investigate whether these controls had been operated contrary to the policy and principles declared by Government so as unjustifiably to favour certain firms and individuals to the exclusion of others. This Commission reported on 30th December, 1946. Subsequently, representations were made by the Comptroller of Customs, the Officer in charge of the Import Licensing Branch and a representative of one firm repudiating the allegations made against them in the Report. In September, 1947, the Governor appointed Mr. Eric Sachs, K.C., to inquire into the justification for the representations made by these three persons, and, in so far as Mr. Sachs might deem desirable, to review and report upon the material before, and the findings of, the previous Commission.

Mr. Sachs carried out a detailed inquiry and presented a long Report. His principal findings are, in brief, that the Comptroller of Customs misconducted the Customs Department in relation to import licensing matters, but that this misconduct was neither deliberate nor corrupt; that the Officer in charge of the Import Licensing Branch misconducted that Branch and this misconduct was deliberate and corrupt. The firm concerned was also found to have used corruption in order to obtain preferences.

The Governor has decided with the advice of his Executive Council that the pension of the Comptroller of Customs, who has since retired from the Service, shall be reduced by 5 per cent. The Gold Coast Government are still considering the action to be taken as a result of the other findings of the Sachs Commission.

Cyprus (Jewish Refugees)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Jewish women of military age have been transferred from Cyprus to Palestine since the beginning of the Truce.

4,920 women of all ages had been transferred between the beginning of the Truce and 21st July. No precise information is available regarding their ages, but it is estimated that roughly 3,250 were between 18 and 45.

Would my hon. Friend say how many women remain in the Cyprus camps? In view of the acute human suffering involved, would he see to it that they are transferred as soon as possible?

I am not able to say exactly how many are left, but they will be transferred as soon as the Jews can arrange for their passage.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how long it is proposed that the 11,000 Jewish refugees of military age are to be detained in Cyprus; and who will refund to His Majesty's Government the expenses of their further detention.

Between 9,000 and 10,000 Jews of military age have been kept in Cyprus because it would not have been right to facilitate their introduction into Palestine during the Truce, and their subsequent introduction might have jeopardised the prospects of securing a resumption of the Truce. The period of their further detention must depend on developments in the Palestine situation, and the question of recovering its cost will also have to await developments. The majority of the Jews of non-military age have already been transferred from Cyprus to Palestine, and the remainder will follow as soon as the Jewish authorities make the necessary arrangements for them to do so.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the U.N.O. Mediator has agreed in principle to the transfer of these men to Palestine, and that, further, every other country has also agreed to the transfer of refugees of military age? Is it not rather intolerable that His Majesty's Government should have to bear the burden of maintaining these camps when their transfer is not likely to alter in any way the very strong military situation in the Jewish State?

I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman will remember that he is addressing the Chair. All that I can hear, and all that hon. Members round about me can hear, is a gentle murmur somewhere in the distance.

If my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) did, he might raise yet another matter on the Adjournment. My question was, is my hon. Friend aware that the transfer of these Jewish refugees of military age from Cyprus has been agreed to by the U.N.O. Mediator, and that it is not likely in any way now to affect the military situation—

and that every other country has already agreed to transfer the refugees of military age? Will he not arrange to transfer those who remain? Is it not rather intolerable that His Majesty's Government should bear the burden of maintaining these camps in these circumstances?

As to the first part of the supplementary question, I am not aware of that at all. On 12th July the Mediator reported to the Security Council that entry into the Jewish area of large numbers of men of military age under the immunity from war risks provided by the Truce would, in his view, create a situation in which the Truce would work to the military advantage of one side. I have not heard that he has changed his view since that date.

Did my hon. Friend see the report in "The Times" to the effect that the Mediator made no recommendation to the British authorities about the detention of men of military age in Cyprus? May I ask him seriously, does he not think, in view of the needs of Palestine, apart entirely from the military situation, and in view of the excellent work that has been done in the reclaiming of the soil, that it is necessary for men to go there to continue that work?

We have to carry out the terms of the Security Council's resolution on this point. The Mediator has definitely declared this to be his opinion, and we are carrying out his opinion on this matter.

Would not all these matters be attended to much more easily if the State of Israel were recognised?

Royal Navy

Laboratory, Holton Heath

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what are the terms of reference of the Admiralty Materials Laboratory at Holton Heath; and how much original research are they undertaking.

The Admiralty Materials Laboratory at Holton Heath carries out general research and development for the Royal Navy in the fields of chemistry, metallurgy and chemical engineering. Original research forms the main work of the establishment and this is being undertaken in a number of important directions.

In view of the widespread charges that very little is happening at this laboratory, can the Minister give an assurance that all the members of the staff are doing a full day's work there and useful work?

I can give the assurance that the whole of the staff there are carrying out most useful work in connection with research which is devoted to the Royal Navy.

Electricity Supply, Perranporth

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether in view of the refusal of the Admiralty, for technical reasons, to allow overhead electric wires in the vicinity of the village of Rose, near Perranporth, he will be prepared to make a substantial contribution towards the additional cost of placing underground the wires involved in bringing electricity to the inhabitants of the village.

No Sir. This is a matter for the South-Western Area Electricity Board.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Chairman of the South-Western Electricity Board recently wrote to me that he did not think it fair that the inhabitants of this village should have to bear the extra cost of having electricity provided in the village solely as a result of defence requirements, which the Board feel should be a National burden so borne, and will his Department, therefore, reconsider the matter?

I am not aware of what the Chairman of the Electricity Board wrote to the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I am aware of the fact that this matter has been referred to the Electricity Board from a security angle, and I am given to understand that it is the responsibility of the Electricity Board in such cases to accept any claims for compensation which may arise.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the South-Western Electricity Board have made representations to the Admiralty that the Admiralty should bear part of the extra cost, and will he look into that to find out when these representations were received, and what reply was sent to them?

That is not in accordance with my information, but I will certainly look into that aspect of the matter.

Civilian Clothes

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he has any further statement to make as to why, in view of the fact that rankers of the Army and Royal Air Force are permitted to leave and enter barracks in civilian clothes, such permission is not also granted the men of the Royal Navy.

This matter is receiving the personal attention of my noble Friend, and I will inform the House when he is in a position to announce his decision.

Sick Berth Attendants (Release)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he will now give a date on which the remaining sick berth attendants, who are in the age and Service group 72, will be released.

I cannot at present give a definite date for the release of those members of the Sick Berth Branch in age and service group 72 who have been retained under the Military Needs Clause; the date in each case depends upon how soon a relief becomes available. As I informed my hon. Friend the Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn) on 25th June, the provision of reliefs for men retained beyond their normal release date has priority over all other commitments, and these men will, therefore, be released at the earliest possible date.

Is my hon. Friend aware that these men were enlisted in February, 1946, and that other men of that group have been released since February of this year; and does not he think that it is time that new entrants were provided to take the place of these men?

We realise the hardship entailed, but there is a shortage of this particular group of men.

H.M.S. "Ajax" (Proposed Sale)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the disposal of H.M.S. "Ajax."

Would the hon. Gentleman inform the House why he cannot make a statement about H.M.S. "Ajax," which is a matter of great importance? Surely the matter can be settled one way or the other?

As I said, when the matter was raised on the Adjournment recently, it is under consideration by His Majesty's Government, and a statement will be made in due course, but it will not be made today.

What is the meaning of "under consideration by His Majesty's Government," and what is the meaning of "due course"? Has not this matter been discussed for more than six or seven weeks; and why cannot we be told whether the ship is to be sold or not? Cannot the Admiralty make up their minds on a small point like this?

Far be it from me to instruct the right hon. Gentleman on the meaning of those words. They are frequently used by all Governments, and have precisely the same meaning as when he and others have used them. The matter is under consideration, and a statement will be made in due course.

We cannot even be told whether this ship is to be sold or not? Will "due course" mean before the end of this Session?

Before the end of this Session? I should think that it probably will be, but I would not like to commit myself in advance.

Not before the Recess, but before the end of the Session, which is quite a different matter.

Is not the real reason for the use of these words that the hon. Gentleman wishes to make a statement when Parliament is not sitting?

No, Sir, it is certainly not; it is because the matter is under consideration and for no other reason.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether negotiations are still proceeding, or whether the Admiralty are trying to make up their minds?

Negotiations are proceeding—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, Sir, negotiations are proceeding but the decision whether the sale will actually take place has not yet been taken. As the Chileans did in fact ask for a price and whether the ship could be sold, these negotiations are being continued, subject to the fact that no decision has been taken.

Is the matter only a question of price; and if the Chileans meet the Admiralty's view on the subject of price will the deal go through? Is that the position?

No, Sir, it is not only a question of price. As I have said, the decision on whether this ship will or will not be sold has not yet been made. I cannot say more than that. That is absolutely definite.

Will it not be very inappropriate if at some future occasion His Majesty's Government have to send British vessels to make the Chileans withdraw from the position they have taken up illegally on British Antarctic territory if they find the "Ajax" on guard for those illegal intruders? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] A disgrace to the Navy.

Will the Minister give an assurance to the House that no final and irrevocable decision will be taken until the House meets again?

On a point of Order. Mr. Speaker, may I direct your attention to the fact that an hon. Member at this end of the House has been trying to catch your eye all through that former series of supplementary questions but has been unable to do so?

Is it in Order for the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) to suggest that the action taken by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary is a disgrace to serving naval officers?

That, surely, is an opinion which the right hon. Gentleman may hold. It may not be correct, but he is entitled to hold that opinion. Anybody in this House can hold any opinion they like. We must not say that certain opinions shall not be held and that they are out of Order; that is really getting rather far away from a democratic Parliament.

I was making no such suggestion, Sir. I was merely asking for your Ruling.

With great respect, I need scarcely say that I was directing my criticism solely to the action of the Minister responsible to this House.

That, of course, is perfectly in Order. Ministers are always fair game to the Opposition. That is our Parliamentary practice.

Explosion, Desford Colliery

( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is now in a position to impart to the House information respecting the explosion which took place on Monday at Desford Colliery.

The Minister does not appear to be here. May I inquire whether the hon. Member gave the Minister notice of this Question?

We had better go on with the next item and get the answer later.

Later

The hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. A. Allen) wished to ask a Private Notice Question earlier, but the Minister of Fuel and Power was not here. Therefore, I now propose to allow the answer.

Perhaps I might explain that I did not receive notice of the Private Notice Question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up."] I will repeat it. I was explaining that I did not receive private notice of the Question which my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Mr. A. Allen) had put down. There was evidently some misunderstanding, but I should like now to answer the Question, notice of which I have just received.

I regret to inform the House that an explosion occurred at Desford Colliery, Leicestershire, on Monday morning. Nine persons were injured and taken to hospital; after treatment, two were allowed to go to their homes, but seven were detained in hospital, two of whom are in a serious condition.

Questions

House of Commons Procedure (Count)

I beg to ask you, Mr. Speaker, the following question, of which I have given you private notice: Whether you will direct that the name of an hon. Member who interrupts proceedings to initiate a Count shall be recorded in HANSARD.

I did write the hon. Baronet a letter explaining the procedure which we have held for many years. That has never been done; neither is it done when an hon. Member spies strangers. It is part of our proceeding; in my opinion, there are a great many sound objections against printing in HANSARD the name of an hon. Member who happens to call a Count, and I should not be prepared to make that direction. I should prefer to leave it as it is, unless the House, after deliberation, chooses so to amend its practice. Meantime, all I can say is—and, quite frankly, I am an old Member of this House and have taken part in these proceedings myself—that it is a great protection to the House of Commons against a House of Commons bore.

Is it not only right, then, that an hon. Member who has performed such a valuable service shall have the merit of having his name inscribed in HANSARD?

Well, sometimes it is a valuable service and sometimes it is not. Therefore, it is rather hard to say that when it is valuable it should be printed and when it is not valuable it should not be printed.

In view of the fact that only two minutes are allowed for hon. Members to come into the Chamber after a Count has been called, and in view of the fact that the Commons are now sitting some longer distance away from the Terrace, and so on, than they did, could you perhaps indicate that four or five minutes rather than two minutes should be allowed for hon. Members?

We went into that question in the last Parliament, and I think there is not more than a yard or two difference between the distance from the present Chamber and the Smoking Room door and that from the old Chamber to the same place. There has to be a time limit, and, after all, it is the job of the hon. Member who has a Motion before the House to keep a House. I have indicated my opinion, and I do not want to make it too easy.

While I should like to express my gratitude, Mr. Speaker, for the consideration you have given this matter, I would point out that my Question was directed, not to challenging whether a Count is desirable procedure or not—obviously that must be a question for the Standing Orders—but whether the name of the hon. Member who initiates a Count should be recorded in HANSARD. As it is sometimes possible for a Count to be exercised in a way which is either mischievous, or frivolous, or tyrannical to a minority group in this House, I would submit that an hon. Member who takes that course should have responsibility for his action firmly fastened upon him by having his name recorded in HANSARD I further submit that if that course were adopted the practice would be much less liable to abuse.

I disagree with the hon. Baronet. I think the responsibility is not with the hon. Member who calls the Count, but with the hon. Member who has the Floor of the House who should be able to keep a quorum.

I take it that nothing in your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, interferes with the undoubted right of every Member on any occasion he thinks fit to challenge a Count?

I am obliged to the Leader of the Opposition; he and I coincide absolutely in our views.

Can you say, Mr. Speaker, if it would be a breach of Privilege for the Press to publish the name of the Member who calls a count, because you will remember that they often do give the name?

I have no power to say that anything is a breach of Privilege. I can only say that a thing is prima facie a breach of Privilege. If the question arose I should have to consider it, but I cannot possibly consider it now.

Surely it should be absolutely clear that the Press have every right to name the Member of Parliament who calls a count, particularly as on some occasions, as the hon. Member said, it is a tyrannical procedure?

That is a hypothetical matter. I do not know whether the Press reports the name of the Member in such cases. I have had no experiences of that question being raised with me. I cannot give any judgment.

Anglo-U.S. Council on Productivity

I wish, with the leave of the House, to make a short statement about the proposed joint Anglo-U.S. Council on productivity. Hon. Members will have read Mr. Hoffman's recent offer to place at the disposal of European industry the experience of United States industry on questions of production. During my recent conversations with Mr. Hoffman, I thought it desirable to make plain that this country would be the first among the members of O.E.E.C. to welcome this initiative.

As the House will be aware from many statements made by various of my right hon. Friends and by myself over the last two or three years, the whole question of the productivity of British industry is one to which we attach very great importance. Although many very considerable increases have been achieved in productivity in this country, there still remains a great deal that can be done, and must be done, if our national standard of living is to be raised above its present level. It seemed to me, therefore, that we should, if possible, avail ourselves without delay of this offer of help wherever we feel that it would be useful.

I therefore put the matter to the N.P.A.C.I. before I left for Paris to talk with Mr. Hoffman. Both the T.U.C. and the employers' members of the N.P.A.C.I. felt that we should certainly take advantage of Mr. Hoffman's initiative and agreed with the view which I put before them, that this matter was essentially one to be dealt with through industry itself.

I therefore suggested to Mr. Hoffman, when I saw him in Paris, that there should be set up a joint Council, consisting of representatives of British and U.S. management and labour, not on the basis of our industries being inferior to those of other countries, but because an exchange of experience and knowledge of methods of production would, I am convinced, be of great benefit to this country. The joint body would not itself be the channel for such an exchange, but would put forward suggestions as to how this could best be arranged and how far E.C.A. assistance could be used in carrying those suggestions into effect. Mr. Hoffman received this proposal enthusiastically, and the necessary discussions to settle the details and to put the matter in train are proceeding without delay.

The joint Council will be the means for co-operation between British and American industry, which I am sure the House will welcome not only as a means of improving our own methods wherever and whenever we can, but also in the hope that it will point the way to similar action by other participating countries.

I must say that nothing the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said so far in his statement has explained to us what is the real need for this arrangement. Surely, as he knows, there is already the fullest contact between British and American industries at all kinds of levels on all practical issues under the regime of free enterprise which rules in the United States. I should like to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to consider what the effect of this arrangement is likely to be on our position here with the export market. After all, our position, the British industry position, has always been based on quality rather than quantity. I can quite see that there may be value in an exchange of information, an exchange between us and the United States, but what I do not think the House should be asked to accept is that our industry is in a position where we require advice from any country, however eminent, in the conduct of our industrial enterprises.

It is generally accepted, I think, that there are many ways in which we might improve the productivity of British industry, and that there are some ways which are being exercised in America which would be helpful to British industry; that has been shown quite conclusively by, among other things, the 18 working party reports. Many of these working parties visited America to investigate conditions there and reported that there were many methods which could be profitably adopted here. It seems to me that if this offer was made to assist us in that way, it would have been stupid of us to deny ourselves the opportunity of getting some advantage from it.

I do not think anyone would dispute that, but will not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that hitherto these exchanges have been based on the needs of an individual industry here in contact with an individual industry in the United States? What seems to us difficult to accept is that any industrial country, however eminent, can, over the general field, give us instructions as to how to conduct our business.

No one has suggested that anyone is giving us any instructions as to how to conduct our business. What it means is—

that the Americans have offered to assist us, if we wish to have assistance, in all those cases where we think that their experience would be of value in improving the productivity of our industry. There are a number of individual firms, as the right hon. Gentleman has said quite rightly, which have already had an exchange of experience, but there are large sections of industry where there has been no such exchange of experience. What we want this Council to examine is whether in this area, there is something useful which can be done, and if there is, we should like to try to get it done.

Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer not recognise that this proposal constitutes an affront to the dignity of our people and a threat to our economic security? Does he not realise, that as the meaning of this proposal becomes known throughout the country, it will be greeted with anger?

No, I am not so aware; nor was that the view taken, either by the T.U.C. or the industrialists, when I put it to them. Moreover, many other eminent countries have sought and got advice from the United States, including the U.S.S.R.

In order to make the situation as plain as can be, may I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether under this arrangement, the American industrialists will have access to secret processes of British manufacturers? Will they have access to the research work which has been conducted in a great many private enterprises; in fact, to any secrets we are developing to increase our competitive power throughout the world?

It entirely depends on those who possess or are responsible for the secrets—I cannot say. This arrangement is to bring the two industries together, and what they do when they come together, will be for them to decide.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that any committee consisting of representatives of trade associations or of the trade unions is quite incapable of advising the Government as to the level at which consultations should take place on industrial methods and efficiency in industry, because technically the conditions vary from industry to industry? Does he not think it would be more desirable to use the methods which are in his power, to encourage firms who wish to introduce efficient methods in this country, and are doing so, instead of supporting and maintaining inefficient organisations?

The latter part of the question has nothing to do with what we are discussing. In regard to the former part, there is no intention that these gentlemen, when they come together, should advise anyone as to the efficiency of methods. The intention is that they should advise how best we can benefit, if we wish to do so, from experience in America, and how best we can send our people there or get their experts here.

Has the Chancellor in mind extending this to those vital parts of industry—distribution and marketing—so that we can get some advice about re-opening exchanges, such as the Liverpool Cotton Exchange?

While welcoming any opportunity of improving efficiency anywhere, may I ask my right hon. and learned Friend whether, in view of the notorious waste of manpower and material in the United States, he will reciprocate the effort made by the United States by offering to send a committee from this country to help them to improve their production?

I am quite prepared to make such an offer, but at present the more important thing is for us to increase our productivity, as theirs is somewhat ahead of ours.

Do I understand that the initiative in asking for American advice lies with the particular industries concerned and, if so, does that mean that the iron and steel industry can ask for advice from the Americans about the probable effect of nationalisation on costs and prices?

So far as I know, the iron and steel industry can ask anybody anything they like.

Does not the Chancellor agree that the primary need of British industry is not more knowledge and methods, but more courage and enterprise in applying what is already known, not the introduction of American methods but the application of the methods of the best British factories to all factories which fall short of that standard? Can he say why he imagines that those industrialists who bitterly oppose the formation of development councils, from which they could learn from one another, will agree to learn from any outside body?

I cannot give the reasons of industrialists for taking or giving the opinions they do. That is for them to say, but I am anxious that we should raise the productivity of our industries to the best standards that exist. That has not yet happened. Over and above that, I still believe profoundly that we can learn something from other people.

Can the Chancellor say whether this arrangement had the approval of the T.U.C.?

Could my right hon. and learned Friend go a little further on one point which was made by the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) and which he did not answer at all—that is the likely effect on our export market and the benefit to American exporters, of goods competing with our quality goods?

I should have thought that the likely effect on our export market, if we can improve productivity, would be to increase it.

Where both are competing for the same export market, who will give way to the other?

Is the Chancellor aware that his mistaken action will leave a very nasty taste in the mouths of many of our citizens, and will only strengthen the suspicions of those people who have already said that our economy has now been geared to American policy? Will he say whether he himself made the first approach, or whether it was made by Mr. Hoffman?

If the hon. Member will be good enough to read what I have said, he will see that I have explained the whole of that matter. I can only imagine that any dislike of such an arrangement arises from a very profound misunderstanding of what it is.

Can we have an assurance from the Chancellor that the Government will accept any advice that is put forward by our American friends, even though that advice cuts across the political and economic ideas of the Government?

There is not the slightest question of this Government accepting any advice. This is, as I have already said, a method of bringing British and American industry together to discuss a problem.

Will the Government extend an opportunity for consultation on Government sponsored cases of the location of industry which, I am prepared to prove, will add to the wages cost of production by no less than 20 per cent., and will unnecessarily and fatally handicap the competition of the tinplate sheet industry in future production?

I do not think it is suitable for this Committee to discuss the question of the location of British industry.

Is the Chancellor refusing an opportunity for consultation with the people most concerned and with most knowledge, including local Members of Parliament and others in his own country? Instead of doing that, does he prefer to consult with foreign interests, which are opposed to ours?

This is a question of industries getting together to see whether there are any advantages to be obtained from American methods of productivity.

Is not all this interchange going on now to a very wide degree, and may not any advantages to be obtained from it be prejudiced by the formal form in which it is now presented? Is it not likely that some improvements would actually be prejudiced by the fact that they have been officially suggested, or formally suggested, to us by a friendly, but foreign, Government, from whom we are borrowing money?

There is no question of any sort or kind of any foreign Government suggesting anything to us, so far as I am aware. This is a means by which American industry can discuss with our industry how best this job can be carried through. There is a certain measure of discussion going on now between some particular industries and other particular industries in America, but there is no general discussion as to the general application over the whole wide range of industry.

I must return to this point. Is it not going on already, and has it not gone on for a long time in a friendly way, under private enterprise? Why have the Government to come in at this juncture and create a formal body, at this stage, to do what has been done, for the mere purpose of self-survival, by British independent manufacturers and producers for many years?

As I have said, I think, three times already, there is a certain amount of interchange of information both on the American side and the British side, and it is thought there might be much more. That is why, when I submitted this suggestion to both sides of industry, they accepted it as being a good one.

In view of the fact that under the American Enabling Act Mr. Hoffman has unlimited discretion to withhold funds from us under the European Recovery Programme, should not the work of this Advisory Council be completely dissociated from that programme and Mr. Hoffman, so that it is made quite clear that this is no condition of American help?

There is no need to dissociate it expressly; it cannot be a condition of American help; it is not suggested that it is.

As I understand it, American industrialists can get into touch with industrialists here and have a consultation about our industrial efficiency. If that is all there is to it, will the Chancellor tell the House what is the significance of making his statement today? What is the importance of it?

The significance is that certain Members yesterday wanted me to make a statement. Otherwise, I should not have done so. I do not consider that this is a matter of Government policy; it is a mere arrangement to try to bring American and British industry together to see whether there are other means by which British productivity might be improved with the assistance of America.

Does the Chancellor not realise that, when he speaks of bringing American and British industry together in such general terms, he makes the whole thing incomprehensible to those engaged?

It was not incomprehensible to the representatives of the Federation of British Industries and the T.U.C.

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether Mr. Hoffman's estimate of a 50 per cent. increase in our production could possibly be made except by the introduction of a type of mass production which is usual in America, but which would compete with the kind of quality work, individual craftsmanship and enterprise in our own factories, and whether he thinks that that is suitable to the psychology and temperament of British workers?

We have already a considerable volume of mass production, and we shall probably increase that production without diminishing the marketing of the volume of specialised products for which we have become famous.

We have listened with great interest to the questions and answers on this matter, which I think is one on which hon. Members in all parts of the House feel very much concerned. I do not want to pronounce judgment on it, but I think we all feel that it is desirable to discuss this matter before we adjourn. As the Leader of the House knows, today's Business is in the hands of the Opposition, and we would be willing, if it were thought to be generally agreeable, that the Debate might take place at half-past seven tonight in order that the matter could be further clarified.

I am afraid it will be almost impossible for me to be here. I have to be at a very important meeting in Bristol at half-past seven.

With great respect, may I plead humbly with the right hon. and learned Gentleman to allow his duties to the House on an occasion of so much interest as this, to take precedence over almost any engagement in the country?

If the House wishes it to be at half-past seven, I shall have to make arrangements to be here, but I was only pointing out that, if it could be arranged equally conveniently at some other time, it would be more convenient to me.

May I urge that this discussion should take place, as it is necessary that somebody should say something about the effect of this proposal on the working class on whom all our production depends? It is the working class, and not the American millionaires, who are the important factor.

We do not want to create any inconvenience to the Government or anybody else. It is just a question of trying to make the arrangements, and perhaps the right hon. and learned Gentleman will consider, since the time is now available to us, the question whether the Debate should be today or tomorrow. It might be a little more convenient at some time tomorrow, but perhaps we can discuss that and a decision be reached very soon?

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. Certainly we shall be glad to do so.

Supposing that the usual channels come to a decision tonight or tomorrow, how are we to be told?

Further to the point which my hon. Friend has raised, may we have a clear understanding from the Lord President of the Council on how we are to be communicated with? There are a number of diverse subjects which people want to raise.

I think we can arrange to announce it to the House in the course of the Debate. The Whips on both sides will have opportunities of informing hon. Members.

Clothes Rationing Changes

I am now able to inform the House of the clothes rationing changes which I am making for the new period commencing 1st September.

In settling the level of the clothing ration I have attempted to follow four main principles. First, the needs of the textile export drive must come first, and the amount of our resources which our arrangements with the textile manufacturing industries provide for the home market must be fixed in the light of that overriding need. Second, we must use the clothing ration so as to bring demand into relation with the supply, limited as it is by manpower and material shortages, making due allowance for the present level of prices. Third, the available supplies should be shared as equitably as possible, and we should not contemplate any further extension of rationing by price. Fourth. as demand and supply come closer together or into equilibrium for particular types of goods, we should deal with this not by a general increase in the ration but, wherever this can be done without affecting our export effort or increasing our import requirements, by taking goods off the ration or downpointing them.

The prices of most types of clothing have recently been rising rather steeply, and there are some who consider that at the present price level rationing is scarcely necessary. I fully recognise that the increases of price are bound to have their effect upon demand, but prices may fall again—there is plenty of room for it—and in any case I am not prepared to take risks at this stage with the fair distribution of essential clothing to the mass of people. The Government are naturally anxious to abolish clothing rationing completely just as soon as circumstances permit, but before that stage can be reached we need a far greater increase in production, sufficient to meet the export programme in full and to provide a greater quantity for the home ration.

As the House will remember, I announced in May last a number of concessions to help the position of the consumer on certain goods which had become in easier supply and, in particular, I announced the issue of a special bonus of 12 coupons. This bonus issue of coupons was made in order to deal with a "hump" of stocks which had arisen owing to an increase in production which had led to a limited piling up of supplies in the warehouses and shops before the full diversion to export had taken effect. The full effect of this switch in increasing exports and decreasing home supplies has still to be felt, but cloth supplies to the makers of garments are now falling and the effect of this will be felt increasingly over the next six months or more.

In considering the level of the clothing ration on this occasion, I have had the benefit of the assistance given by the two advisory committees, representing respectively, manufacturers, distributors and housewives, which I appointed recently on this subject. These committees have so far confined their attention to considering the short term problem of the next rationing period, but they will continue to sit and will, during the next few months, consider the more general aspects of clothes rationing policy. Both committees worked with great energy and keenness in the last few weeks to consider the many different aspects of rationing policy as it affects the arrangements for the next period, and I am very grateful for their help.

Having regard to the changes in points values to which I am just coming, the supply situation enables me to maintain but not to increase the general issue of coupons. It will therefore be fixed at 24 coupons for the six months beginning 1st September.

Now I come to the changes in pointing. I will deal with footwear first. Production of footwear has been maintained at a high level, and stocks have not fallen noticeably since the pointing was reduced to half in May. I propose, therefore, to take footwear off the ration completely. I cannot, however, guarantee that supplies of leather, which involve difficult currency imports, can be maintained at their existing level, and I do not propose any higher allocation of leather to the boot and shoe trade than would have been made had rationing been kept on.

Turning to wool cloth and garments, both the wool and the cotton industries are playing a vital part in the export drive, and the greatly increased supplies going to export must to some extent be provided at the expense of the home market. By comparison with the position before the war, however, wool cloth is not so short as cotton cloth, and there are at present good stocks of women's and children's wool garments. There is, therefore, a strong case for altering the balance of pointing between wool and cotton garments, and I have decided to do this by reducing the pointing of wool cloth and wool garments, including knitted garments, to the lower rate now applying to cotton goods.

This will, I fear, accentuate the shortage of men's suits, especially worsted suits, but I cannot differentiate between one type of wool garment and another, nor do I think the men would wish me to discriminate against them. The pointing of a man's suit, therefore, will come down from 26 to 20 coupons and of a woman's costume from 18 to 12 coupons.

Children's and infants' raincoats and mackintoshes, except those made of wool or union gaberdine, are in good supply and a concession here will ease the problem of clothing growing children. I have therefore decided to remove them from the ration.

I have also decided to take certain other garments off the ration. Firstly, garments made wholly or mainly of leather, which are mainly home-produced and are used principally by special groups of workers such as agricultural workers. Secondly, I am removing from the ration oiled fabrics and garments made therefrom, where again there are special occupational uses, e.g. for fishermen. The other items to be taken off the ration are knitted bathing costumes and body-belts.

The pointing of boys' shirts was raised in May. The Committees have pointed out that six coupons for a boy's shirt is unreasonably high, and I have decided to reduce it to the former level.

I have made a very careful survey of the position of household textiles. The supply position is now that I can safely take all furnishing fabrics, including all curtains, off the ration completely. This will mean that no curtain or upholstery cloth which falls within the definitions of furnishing fabrics will remain on the ration. Cushion covers also will be derationed.

I only wish that I could do the same about sheets, but the supply position and the competing export demand, does not permit it. As the House will remember, I made a small reduction in the coupon value of broad double sheets in May. While this has improved sales in the country districts, and shortages are developing in one or two localities, I am advised that there are still large stocks in the towns. In spite, therefore, of the, I hope, temporary decline in the supply of sheets for the home market, I feel I am justified in making some further concessions. All sheets will be downpointed to about two-thirds of their present coupon value; this means that double sheets, which were 14 until two months ago, will be downpointed from 12 to eight coupons a pair, and single sheets from eight to six coupons or six to four coupons a pair.

I have decided also to increase the supplement for expectant mothers from 70 to 80 coupons. Details of the special children's supplements will be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The alterations to the pointings will take effect on August 9th; the new coupons are not valid until 1st September.

These changes in the clothing rationing scheme, which will, I hope, ease the clothing position in very many households, are possible only because of the recent welcome increase in textile production, and the gradual accumulation of stocks. I am satisfied that no further easing of the rationing position will be possible until we get further and much needed increases in all the basic textiles, and certainly the situation is not such as would justify our for one moment contemplating the abolition of clothes rationing.

Unless production continues to increase, I cannot rule out the possibility of having to reduce the ration for next summer, to balance the reduced pointings, because the demands of the export trade will by that time be reaching a new post-war peak level. On the other hand should production increase sufficiently, it may be possible, while still meeting export needs in full, to make further improvements in the home ration, in the spring. And, as I have said, I propose to keep the committees in being so that this essentially fluid situation can be kept continuously under review. Finally, may I apologise to the House for the length of this statement.

I am sure that the House would always be willing to accept those apologies when most of the statement is so acceptable to the population. This is another move which the President has made in the right direction. I can only say that my criticism of it is confined to the fact that it is still a little late, but it is very welcome for all that.

Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that the concessions which he has announced will be greatly appreciated by the housewives of the country and especially by the mothers of families? Will he pay further attention to a point to which he referred in his statement, namely the high prices of goods and the need for the prices to come down in order that people belonging to the working class—

Yes, Sir. I quite agree that the prices have themselves been imposing some form of rationing. The high prices are mainly due to the cost of imported raw materials, but there has been some welcome reduction in prices following the cut coupon sales in the Summer on which I insisted with the trade, and we expect a further fall.

Do these concessions, which many of us think might have been made long ago but for prejudice, mean that there will be a General Election in the Autumn?

May I point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that this is the third series of clothing concessions made with no General Election in sight whatever.

In view of the relatively small amount of clothing involved, can my right hon. Friend say whether he will now allow the twelve bonus coupons to ex-prisoners of war who have been granted civilian status, since they are not "temporary visitors" in the ordinary sense of the words? May I have a reply?

As the holiday season is fast approaching, will the President of the Board of Trade consider whether the down-pointing to which he referred and the removal of certain goods from rationing, could be made operative before 9th August?

I am sorry but I do not think it would be possible. We have talked to the trade about this and there is a minimum time which is required to notify the trade so that they may mark up the goods. I only wish I could do it next week.

Is the President of the Board of Trade still imposing a time limit by which date the 12 bonus coupons must be used?

That issue was made in order to clear the temporary hump of stocks and so far I have seen no reason to change it.

In that case, as I cannot give my right hon. Friend notice of my question, may I press him to say at least that he will consider it sympathetically?

I will consider it, but I cannot say whether it will be sympathetically.

Following are the details of the special Children's Supplements:

Group A. —Children from approximately 16 to 18: Children born between August 2nd, 1930, and July 31st, 1932, inclusive will receive 10 additional coupons.

Group B. —Children from approximately 10½ to 16: Children born between August 1st, 1932, and December 31st, 1937, inclusive will receive 20 additional coupons.

The additional coupons for both the above groups can be applied for at Food Offices at any time between September 1st next and July 31, 1949.

Group C. —Children under 10½: Children born in 1938 or later who, on being weighed and measured at school at any time between 1st October, 1948, and the 31st December, 1948, are found to be 5 ft. 3in. or more in height or 7 stone 12 lb. or more in weight will receive 20 additional coupons.

Business of the House

The "usual channels" have moved with their accustomed smoothness, efficiency and speed, and I am able to inform the House that it is proposed to adjust tomorrow's Business by taking a discussion on the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to the Anglo-American Industrial Council proposals tomorrow from the commencement of Public Business until Six o'Clock, and from Six o'Clock to the end of the Sitting, to take a combined Debate—the subjects are somewhat different, but a combined Debate—on Service pay and disability pensions so as to condense the Business for tomorrow. I hope that will meet the convenience of the House generally.

On tomorrow's Business, can the Leader of the House say whether the Minister of Pensions will be making his statement first or whether he will wind up the Debate?

I am afraid that I do not know. This change in the Business may cause us to re-examine matters between the two Ministers. I am afraid that I cannot say, but I hope that I shall be able to inform the House tomorrow.

Has the Leader of the House any statement to make about any alteration in today's Business—whether the Debate on Education may be brought to an end somewhat earlier in order to enable some hon. Members to speak on matters of foreign policy?

I have no knowledge of any arrangements being made to bring the Debate on Education to an end earlier. I gather that it will run its course.

Clerk of the House (Retirement of Sir Gilbert Campion)

"To the Right Honourable The Speaker of the House of Commons.

SIR,

I have the honour to inform you that I desire as from 31st July to resign the Patent of Clerk of the House of Commons which it has been my privilege to hold for the past 11 years.

It is with profound regret that after 42 years, 27 of which have been spent at the Table, I now leave the service of this House. Even if my acknowledgment must be in many cases retrospective, I cannot lay down my office without taking this opportunity to express to you, Sir, your predecessors and the other occupants of the Chair, Members of all parties in the 11 Parliaments I have known and to my colleagues past and present, my gratitude for the many acts of courtesy and consideration with which you and they have lightened the burden of my official duties.

I feel I can say with confidence that the Department in which I have had the honour to serve and recently to direct will continue to maintain its honourable tradition of service to the House.

I am, Sir,

Your obedient Servant,

GILBERT CAMPION."

The House will have heard with great regret the terms of the letter which Mr. Speaker has read. I rise to give notice that, in accordance with precedent, a Motion will be proposed tomorrow expressing our thanks to Sir Gilbert Campion for the long service which he has rendered to this House.

Place of Sitting (Message from the King)

Message from His Majesty, brought up, and read by Mr. SPEAKER (all the Members of the House being uncovered), as followeth:

St, Stephen's Hall not being conveniently available for the meeting of the House of Commons on the day to which Parliament shall stand prorogued, His Majesty intends to open the next Session of Parliament in the Present Parliament Chamber; and it is His Majesty's pleasure that the House of Commons shall then meet in the Chamber now assigned to them as their place of sitting.

George R.

Message to be considered Tomorrow.—[ Mr. H. Morrison. ]

Standing Orders (Revision)

Ordered,

"That the Report from the Select Committee on Standing Orders (Revision) be now considered."—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]

Report considered accordingly.

4.22 p.m.

I beg to move: of procedure. It now falls to my lot, as Chairman of the Select Committee recently appointed by the House to consider and report upon the Standing Orders relating to Public Business, to move a similar Motion in regard to those Standing Orders. It is of interest to note that no similar overhaul of the Standing Orders relating to Public Business has ever previously taken place in the long history of this honourable House. It is not difficult to understand why this should be so. The Standing Orders relating to Public Business form, even now, by far the smaller part of the volume of Standing Orders. Even as late as 1825 there were only seven Standing Orders relating to Public Business. There was, therefore, no need until the 19th century was well advanced, for any sweeping revision to take place.

The position now, however, is very different. There are today no fewer than 108 Standing Orders relating to Public Business. Of these, a few Standing Orders concerning public money are some 200 years old and, as they are extremely technical and really form the basis of our financial structure, they have with small exceptions been left untouched. Most of the other Standing Orders, however, have been made at various times during the past century, and since the passing of the first Reform Act to meet different circumstances as they arose. The result is that today there is no consistency of language in the Standing Orders. For example, stages of Bills are often referred to under different names in different Standing Orders. In one Order we get the term "Report Stage," in another "Consideration Stage," and in still another "Consideration of Report"—all three terms having, in effect, the same meaning.

Another difficulty is that owing to the making of new Standing Orders from time to time, related Standing Orders have had to be amended, and the result of this piecemeal amendment has been to make some of the Orders very long and very difficult to follow. This was the situation which resulted in the House setting up the Select Committee which has now reported.

As the House will appreciate, the scrutiny of so many complicated Orders in detail was a task of some magnitude. Fortunately, a great deal of the work had been done before the Committee met. A Departmental Committee, consisting of the Clerk of the House, Sir Gilbert Campion, and seven or eight of the Senior Officers of the House, have for several months been going through the existing Standing Orders and drawing up a list of suggested Amendments. Their suggestions were embodied in a memorandum which Sir Gilbert Campion laid before the Select Committee, and the House is indebted to these officers and especially to Sir Gilbert Campion of whose approaching retirement hon. Members have just heard with so much regret. Sir Gilbert also attended a meeting of the Committee, and was subjected to a long and searching examination of his proposals. This examination was greatly facilitated by the clear and convenient form in which the proposals were laid before the Committee, that form being obviously itself the fruit of much labour.

The scope of the proposals will be clear to the House from the report which is before them. They consist largely of changes of phrasing so as to bring about uniformity. The Orders have been rearranged and grouped according to subject. Certain Orders, such as the famous Standing Order No. 1 "Sittings of the House," have been very largely re-drafted. This latter Order represented the accretion of generations of House of Commons work and very badly needed straightening out. One small but distinct improvement which has been adopted in the proposed revised Standing Orders is the numbering of the lines. The importance of this will be appreciated by those hon. Members who have attempted to follow proposed Amendments in the existing text where it is at present necessary to go through each Order and to count the lines.

Many minor changes were made by the Committee. The name of the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills, for instance, seemed to the Select Committee to be a misnomer, since that Standing Committee now deals with Estimates as well as Bills. The Select Committee accordingly recommends that the name should be changed to the Scottish Standing Committee. Another recommendation of the Select Committee is that where particular Standing Orders are cited in the text of other Orders, they should be cited by number as well as by name. This removes a constant difficulty which hon. Members have found in dealing with Standing Orders which refer or relate to the provisions of other Standing Orders.

If the House will permit me I should now like to say a word or two upon the slight Amendment to the proposed new Standing Order No. 16 which forms part of the Motion now before the House. The intention of the Select Committee in recommending the insertion of the words in line 44 of the present Standing Order No. 14, which appear in the Report, was to make it quite clear what questions the Chairman has to put in dealing with Supplementary Estimates in the March Supply Guillotine. As the Standing Order reads at present, it might be held that all the Votes might be put on one question, and the Amendment in the Select Committee's Report was intended to remove this difficulty.

It now appears, however, that in defining the classes of Supplementary Estimates to be considered, the Supplementary Estimates for the Ministry of Defence were omitted. This difficulty can be met, if the House so agrees, by inserting at the end of line 48 of the proposed Standing Order No. 16 the words on the Order Paper "and the Ministry of Defence."

I hope that the House may agree that all these changes constitute a great improvement in the text of the Order. The Select Committee do not and, in fact, could not under their order of reference recommend any far-reaching changes which alter the practice of the House. The Report mentions three changes of substance, but they are all of a purely consequential and non-contentious nature. I may, perhaps, remind the House that many points of procedure are traditional and are matters of practice not covered by Standing Orders at all; but what the Select Committee have aimed at has been to present a sound and consistent text, bringing the existing Standing Orders as a whole into conformity with present practice. The Committee venture to hope that their proposals will receive the unanimous approval of the House.

As an addendum, perhaps the House will permit me, as Chairman of the Committee, to pay two tributes: one to my colleagues on the Committee, all Members of the Chairman's Panel, who have devoted themselves to scrutinising the text of the proposals and disposing of this somewhat complicated but extremely important task in the short space of a fortnight, in order that we may begin a new Session with more satisfactory Standing Orders. Secondly, I should wish to refer again to Sir Gilbert Campion, who has rendered in this matter not the least of his great services to this House.

4.32 p.m.

On behalf of my right hon. and hon. Friends I should like to associate our party with the tributes which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has paid, not only to Members of the Committee—he could not pay it to himself so, perhaps, I may be allowed to add his name—but also to the Clerk of the House and his colleagues for the obviously enormous amount of work that was necessary to bring the matter up to this point at all. Secondly, our colleagues and those who have advised them from the Table have both done a good job of work.

Having said that, I must enter a caveat because, of course, what we are doing now is authorising these new Standing Orders to take the place of the old. It is quite true that the difference is largely only a question of drafting, a question of rearrangement, a question of greater clarity of language; but I am not sure that on this Motion we could not raise the whole question of the Standing Orders and their merits. I do not propose to do that today because the Opposition is willing to conform to the convenience of hon. Members as a whole. It would be very inconvenient for those who have come here to discuss education if, as on the last occasion when we discussed the Standing Orders—on 4th November—we spend until 4 o'clock tomorrow morning dealing with Standing Orders. That would be very inconvenient and, obviously, I do not propose to do anything of the kind.

What I want to make quite clear is that by accepting this Motion, and by congratulating the Committee who have made it possible to bring it forward, I hope that the Leader and the Deputy-Leader of the House will not take it from that that the Opposition has now entirely changed its mind from that which it expressed at the very beginning of this Session. On 4th November I had many criticisms to make of the alterations which were then being made to the Standing Orders. The experience of the Session has fortified me in my views with regard to some of the criticisms I then made, more particularly about the abolition of the Report stage of the Budget Resolutions which caused considerable difficulty during the passage of the Finance Bill. I am merely making the point that we have our views on certain major matters, such as the times of the Sittings of the House, the number of Supply Days, the Chairman's power of restricting Debate on the Clause standing part, the formality of the Report stage of the Budget Resolutions, the size of the Standing Committees and various arrangements with regard to the business Committees.

My hon. Friends and I have not changed our views about these things, but we are not going to discuss them today. I will make quite clear, however, the fact that these new, or re-formed, Standing Orders, which are going to be printed and accepted as such today, are accepted merely on the basis that they are clarifications of what are at present the Standing Orders of the House; but that both my right hon. and hon. Friends—and indeed, any hon. Members in other parts of the House—entirely retain our rights at the appropriate moment, should they think fit, to press for the alteration of the Standing Orders, as they will be.

With that caveat, I should like to say that it is a very fine piece of work to have done to have tied up this very complicated field of our Parliamentary affairs and that it is certainly a worthy crown for the long work of our Clerk.

4.36 p.m.

I think it is right, before formally agreeing—as, I am sure, the whole House will formally agree—to the Motion which has been moved by the Chairman of Ways and Means, that I should express my appreciation, and the deep appreciation of all of us, of the excellent way in which this matter has been dealt with by the Select Committee. I should like to thank everyone of them but, in particular, the Chairman himself, because it was upon him that the main work undoubtedly fell, and to express once again the deep appreciation and gratitude of the House to the Clerk, Sir Gilbert Campion, and all those who assisted him.

As the right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) has said, in the main there is no change but this work was very necessary. A good deal of the language was archaic, I many of these Standing Orders have been in existence for a very long time, and there seemed to be a real need for bringing them up to date. On behalf of all of us, I once again express my gratitude to the Chairman.

4.38 p.m.

May I call the attention of the House to paragraph 3 of the Report which reads:

"While Your Committee recognise that the Standing Orders relating to Public Money, some of which are of considerable antiquity, afford a very inadequate expression of modern practice, they have …"

with certain exceptions referred to,

"left them untouched, since their revision would require special technical knowledge and involve labour and research for which time is not at present available Your Committee suggest that attention might be given to this matter at some future time."

May I underline that paragraph, which has been referred to by the Chairman of Ways and Means, and ask those responsible to note its importance? A question arose out of the Standing Orders which have not been touched; I think it was during the passage of the Gas Bill. I raised the matter with Mr. Speaker, who gave a long Ruling and one with which, I think, it is fair to say with respect, he expressed himself as not altogether satisfied. The position regarding these Standing Orders is far from satisfactory and it is important that they should be looked at at an early date.

4.40 p.m.

Let me say, quite frankly that, when I was first appointed to this Committee, realising that we had only a very short time in which to discuss this matter and that there was great urgency about it, I naturally looked at it with great suspicion. Since then I went into it very fully, I took great care to read everything over before the sittings of any meetings and I did everything to expedite even the first meeting. Having every desire to see whether there was anything which might be fundamentally wrong, and realising that we could do very little to change the existing procedure, I am obliged to say that, thanks almost entirely to the amazing work which had been done beforehand by the chief Clerk, whom we are all so deeply sorry to lose and who has given everyone of us in our different capacities such an amazing example of service and friendship, I could find nothing in these matters, except for minor points, which were in any way dangerous to the procedure of the House.

On the other hand, it does three things of value by bringing the proper Orders together and adapting the use of language. In the first place, we have modernised the whole standing of these Orders as they come in the "book of words." That is a simplification which has great effect and which will, I think, also make it very much easier for the ordinary private Member to understand where he is. It does not change things, but it makes it easier for the ordinary Member.

I believe it is going to do something else. Today, there is an enormous interest outside in the proceedings of the House of Commons and I believe that if these newly edited Standing Orders could be made easily available to the public it would be a great help to those who would like to understand what we are doing. That is all I wish to say, except to emphasise what my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) said: that over the last few years there has been—and these new Standing Orders in no way make it less—a continual bias which has made it more difficult for the ordinary back bencher. Without in any way criticising the new Orders, I wish to warn the House that, in the future, it is clear from what my right hon. and gallant Friend said that there are Standing Orders which will require really deep revision. I regret that there is this continual tendency to place the bias of the Standing Orders too much in support of the Government and not so much in the interests of ordinary private Members. I have spent more time in supporting than in opposing the Government. Apart from that, I can find nothing of importance in these Standing Orders which does anything to change our existing practice.

4.43 p.m.

On behalf of the Chairman of Ways and Means and those who served on the Committee, I wish to thank the right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) and others who have taken part for what they have said about their work on the Committee. On behalf of the Government I have noted the points raised by the right hon. and gallant Member and by the hon. Member for South Hendon (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth) and the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams). We recognise that this task is not completed by the work which has been done. Simplification and clarification have taken place. Those two actions in themselves may, in fact, enable people to make suggestions with regard to future amendments to Standing Orders which will probably be of assistance to the House. In regard to financial Standing Orders to which the hon. Member for South Hendon more specifically alluded, they are, of course, highly technical, and any Committee which has to sit on them would need the advantage of still further research by those who advise us on these matters before they could usefully undertake that task. But that is a matter which I can assure hon. Members will not be lost sight of by the Government.

Question put, and agreed to.

Ordered:

"That the present Standing Orders relating to Public Business be repealed; and that the Orders recommended by the Select Committee and set out in the Appendix to the said Report be adopted as the Standing Orders of the House relating to Public Business, subject to the following alteration:

Proposed Standing Order No. 16, line 48, at end, insert 'and the Ministry of Defence'."

Orders of the Day

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill

Motion made, and Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

Education

4.45 p.m.

The total estimate of expenditure for the Ministry of Education from the Exchequer and rates combined for 1948–49 is £245,664,000, an increase of £31,198,000 over the figure for the previous year. This figure is the highest ever for my Department. The main reasons for the increase are summarised in the Memorandum on the Estimates. This expenditure reflects the steady progress made throughout the year in implementing and carrying though the plans of the previous year, and I suggest that a survey of these schemes will be the best way of justifying the Vote. So I am going to take the plunge right away and refer to teacher training. This is a matter which is very much in our minds and for that reason I intend to deal with it first. I think it needs putting into perspective. I think it right that we should put the teachers first in this Debate because they matter most in a school—

What about the children? I thought children might have come first.

Before mentioning any part of this subject I wish to put before hon. Members the complete picture as we see it. Some hon. Members will have seen the recent circular on the supply of teachers which was based on three years' careful observation of the teacher problem. As a result we have a five-year plan, the object of which is to raise the total number of teachers from 196,000 to 237,000 by 1953. To secure these teachers it is necessary to extend the permanent training organisation of the country and this we are doing. The figures speak for themselves. This year, we estimate that over 6,000 women alone will be admitted to two year courses as opposed to 5,250 last year and a mere 3,250 as an average before the war. Next year, we hope to raise the number to nearly 8,000. The total figure for men and women is over 8,000 for this year and 10,000 for next year. But I suggest that is not enough. We have to rely for short-term relief on the emergency training scheme. This scheme is now just beginning to have its effects and we have every reason to be proud of it.

I wish to say a word about the proportion of men to women in the profession. The question is very much in our minds at the moment because we have just had to tell men candidates to wait longer so that more women can be trained. We have been careful to publicise the reasons for this move which is required by the higher birth rate. In very few cases should any candidate have to wait more than nine months longer. This is one of those things which is inseparable from a planned scheme. We have the alternative of letting the scheme remain on its original course with the result that there would be a temporary surplus of men over women teachers—

May I be permitted to give the whole picture? There will be ample opportunity if I am allowed to state the position.

Does the hon. Gentleman mean nine months from now, or nine months longer than they would otherwise have to wait?

I think I said nine months longer than the previous time they would have to wait. It is perfectly clear in the circular. We have the alternative of either letting the scheme remain on its original course with the result that there would have been a temporary surplus of men teachers while the country was crying out for women teachers or we could keep a careful control on the output of the colleges and ensure that teachers are trained as and when required. We chose the latter course and we believe it is in the interests of the schools, the country and the teachers themselves. In the long run it is better for the men to wait.

Here I want to repudiate in the strongest terms the suggestion that the Ministry have been caught napping over this. It has been suggested that we could have seen this trend and done something about it earlier.

I wonder if our critics have worked out what it means. I ask them to look at the situation as a whole. At the beginning of the war we knew we would be faced with a dire shortage of teachers. At the same time we were faced with a golden opportunity. Young men coming from the Forces showed a great keenness to take up teaching as a career. Here was an opportunity which we seized at once.

Even at this early stage we knew that in the nature of things the majority of applicants would be men. Even then we could foresee the general effects of the rising birthrate but we also knew we should eventually want all the men we could get; and although we realised that at some future date there might be need for readjustment we accepted all the suitable men we could. We kept the scheme under constant review. We have always made it known that dates of admission are tentative. But we have always said that we want all these men. We retract none of our promises and we forget none of our pledges. But, it is said, "If you knew that the birthrate was rising in 1946, why did you do nothing then? Why wait until now?" I confess that I am a little astonished at this criticism. Is it implied that as soon as the birthrate started to rise we should have taken the most desperate measures to provide large numbers of extra infant teachers? Should we have done that without considering whether the rate would fall in the next year? Birthrate figures must be correlated with teacher recruitment figures four or five years ahead. The birthrate figures for a single year, nay, even for two years mean little. A high rate over a couple of years can be coped with in the ordinary course of things.

We foresaw in a general way the need for more women teachers which the high figures in 1945 and 1946 would produce. That is why we have, while pushing the emergency scheme for men, pushed it also for women. Throughout the operation of the scheme women have been admitted to emergency training with a shorter waiting period than men. That is why we have developed the two-year training colleges so that this year's intake of women students is, as I have said, nearly double pre-war. A high birthrate only becomes serious if it is prolonged over many years, thus producing a bulge in the entry figures into infant schools lasting over a number of years. It will be said, "Then is not a point reached when special measures are necessary?" The answer is "Exactly so," and we have taken those special measures.

It should surely be clear from what I have said that we have kept the closest possible watch on the birthrate figures in this context, and at the precise moment when it became necessary we took the necessary action to safeguard the school population in 1952. Indeed, I would like our critics to face fairly and squarely the question, "What could we have done earlier?" and we should like to have, in the Debate, a constructive answer to that question.

We shall await it with great interest. One can never prove a negative but it is not very wide of the mark to say that we could not have provided more colleges. If that is one of the constructive suggestions which is to be made, I say, as one who has been very much concerned in the creation of this scheme, "Your are asking for the impossible if that is the suggestion you make." To support this one has only to look at some of the extraordinarily makeshift places we have had to take for the emergency training scheme and not only for that scheme but for two-year colleges for women. It is gratifying to know and to realise what successful colleges and college estates the staffs have made out of some of the most difficult premises which we have had to take over for both those purposes.

We could not, therefore, have trained more women except at the expense of men, and this would have been sheer folly. We want all the men we can get from the emergency training scheme and to throw them away for good just because it is not easy to adjust supply and requirements exactly in terms of time would have been extremely foolish. We are not planning for a surplus of teachers but for the employment of an unusually high proportion of men for a few years. This is surely the only sensible way to staff the schools at a time when the bulge is passing through the infant and junior sections. I suggest with all respect that it is nothing for which to apologise; it is common sense. It means that the men will be there when they are wanted for the older children later, as the bulge passes up the schools, and it avoids the extreme distortion of the training system which would result from trying to meet such a temporary situation with the proportion of men and women which has prevailed in the past.

There is some risk in these plans as in any plans which look a few years ahead. It is a risk which is thoroughly justified, both from the short term and long term point of view. This is the justification for the plans to which we have been working and also for the adjustments which are now being made. I suggest that this is the proper time for such adjustments because most of the older emergency men candidates have already been admitted to training or very soon will be and because turning over places to women now means that the women can still be trained in time for the years when the infant and junior schools will be feeling the full effects of the increased birthrate, that is I953–1955.

It is also common sense to use the same buildings first for training emergency scheme men and then for women taking either emergency or two-year courses. To have opened new two-year colleges for women right and left when emergency college buildings were in any case going to be free for use in a year or two would have been extravagant at any time. In present circumstances it would have been utterly unjustified. Our plan for turning over colleges now—in 1948 and 1949—meets the needs of the schools, while avoiding such extravagance.

I now come to an aspect of this problem of which every Member of the House is well aware. Believe me, we at the Ministry are well aware too of this aspect of the problem, namely the hardship which these men in some cases have to bear. My right hon. Friend and myself realise what a keen disappointment it is and we are examining every way of helping them. We would like them to realise that it is in their own interest as well as the country's for them to wait until they are really needed. We are looking into the question as to what help can be given, and that is a promise I make to the House this afternoon.

That is the sort of help which we understand from the letters we receive they chiefly require. That is the kind of help we are certainly exploring.

As a result of all these measures, I think we can say that the situation is at least encouraging. This has been a year of high endeavour. We have seen and faced not only the effects of the raising of the school-leaving age, but also of the heavy pressure from below caused by the rising birthrate. In spite of this pressure on the schools at both ends as it were, the teacher position is actually better than ever before. The ratio of teachers to pupils is now 1 to 27.7 as opposed to 1 to 32 before the war. But we are not resting content with this, nor should we. By 1951 we anticipate that there should be enough teachers for the majority of classes to be reduced to a maximum of 30 in secondary schools and 40 in primary schools. There again we shall not remain content with that differentiation.

If teachers, apart from the children, are the supreme educational consideration, buildings run them a close second. Last year my right hon. Friend told the House about the steps we have taken to cut red tape and to reduce irritating administrative delay. In order to help authorities to get away to a quick start, we introduced what we called the operational procedure. This is an emergency measure under which authorities have to submit plans of new buildings once only to the Ministry at the sketch plan stage. This enables them to start building, if necessary, before all drawings and quantities have been completed. Our aim was not to keep the plans of an average project in the operational procedure at the Ministry for more than one month. In many cases we have been able to achieve this aim, or to get very near to it. But there again I am not suggesting that we are content. There is still room for constant revision. We are keeping this procedure under review and also seeing what can be done to adapt it to more routine cases.

It is not only a question of delays within the Ministry. It still seems to be taking local education authorities about 12 months, as a rule, to get from the stage of approval of sketch plans to the start of the work on the site. We fully appreciate the difficulties which authorities have to face. There is the shortage of experienced technical staff, the difficulties in securing the delivery of steel, and the local shortage of labour, and so on. But for an average that period is too long, and we are encouraging authorities to use such methods as standardisation, pre-fabrication and bulk ordering of component parts and materials in order to reduce it. On this point the Technical Working Party on School Construction, which was appointed at the end of 1946, has now completed its rather complicated discussions and is about to report.

Though these new methods may help, what we think is really needed is a new approach to the whole question of the relation between authorities and the Ministry. We are constantly stressing the value of greater co-operation. The implementation of the Act of 1944 is impossible without that spirit of co-operation. What we want to see is more informal discussion before the plan making starts. Many authorities would benefit if they would use our architects' staff as an advisory body. This would be particularly helpful to smaller authorities, for they are the authorities who suffer most from the shortage of trained architects. To them I would say, "Bring your troubles to us; let us advise you." This, I think, is bound to reduce delay later on.

In order to ensure that the most urgent jobs get done first, we have made use of programmes. Because of various shortages of labour and material, particularly steel, it has not been possible to keep those programmes entirely up to schedule. Nevertheless, since January, 1946, we have approved a total of £42 million of which an amount equivalent to £16½ million is under construction or has been completed. Just now we are considering the building programme for 1949. Replies to our inquiries from authorities have been slow in coming in, but we hope to be able to let them know soon what their individual programmes will be. We must, however, wait until we can integrate the educational programme for 1949 with the national plan. We want orderly, comprehensive development, and not a piecemeal plan. But the three needs which will dominate the 1949 programme will all continue well after that year—new housing, a rise in the birth rate and technical education. So in the 1949 plan we have looked ahead and sketched in the basic requirements for the following years. The result is that when authorities learn what their 1949 programme is to be, they will also know the broad outlines of the national programme up to 1952.

Last year my right hon. Friend spoke of the Horsa scheme which we inaugurated to provide accommodation for the extra age group. This programme is now 54 per cent, complete. Work is actually in progress on another 34 per cent. The immediate aim is to complete some 5,857 rooms—out of a total applied for to date of 6,538—by the end of 1948. The present rate of completion is 240 to 250 rooms per month. We realise, as every hon. Member in the House realises, what a lot remains to be done before even the majority of schools in the country have noble and fitting buildings. So far we have weathered the storm of shortages and crises of last year and we have, I suggest, ample grounds for a sober optimism.

In order to improve the situation in this interim period, there is very much more that can be done. I would urge authorities not to be afraid of putting a coat of paint on some of those dark little schools which we all hope to see disappear soon. Meanwhile they are still there, and young people are being educated in them. Authorities, some of which are already doing it, can do a great deal more to brighten up many of the dingy schools in rural and industrial areas and the dingy and drab classrooms. It makes all the difference, as we know from visiting certain administrative areas, when a little bright-coloured paint is used.

I have been attacked for making a speech suggesting that local authorities should be prepared in some instances to improvise more in the use of any halls or rooms of any kind which are weatherproof and are available for the taking of classes. I still hold to that view that wherever possible all authorities should utilise rooms available within a reasonable distance of the school premises. There are two urgent needs and one is interlocked with the other; the education of the children as soon as possible in the best possible way, even under existing circumstances, and, in order to do that, a reduction as soon as possible in the size of classes. So that while recognising the valuable contribution which some authorities have made already to the brightening up of premises already being used, which will, I fear, have to be used for a year or two longer, we must plead with other authorities to do everything they can to brighten up other schools which also will have to be used.

When it comes to a consideration in the Vote of the field of school health, we can again afford a certain amount of optimism and satisfatcion. Despite the restrictions on building, 73 new clinics or enlargements of clinics have been completed, and a further 150 proposals are at present under consideration. Since I believe there has been some suggestion that the school dental service is ill equipped and ill housed, I would point out that no fewer than 18 of the completed clinics and 60 of those under consideration are for dentistry. In fact, so far as dental inspection goes, we have now recovered the ground lost during the war and as many as 72 per cent, of those found to require treatment actually obtain it. This is a record. We are also anxious to extend the child guidance service, and authorities have been encouraged to do all they can to overcome the difficulty of shortage of staff. Of the school clinic proposals mentioned, four of the completed jobs and eight of those under consideration are for child guidance work.

Many Members are interested in the provision of special schools for handicapped children. One would think that this problem had not existed until the present Government came into power. The problem has always been with us, and I suggest that it is only in recent years that a really tremendous effort has been made to meet the needs of many types of handicapped children. My right hon. Friend and myself are particularly anxious to relieve the shortage of accommodation in this direction. We know and sympathise with hardship which has existed by reason of the lack of properly equipped and staffed special schools. I am, therefore, glad to be able to say that the picture is an encouraging one. In 1947, 19 new schools were opened. Fourteen were boarding schools and five were day schools. They accommodate 711 children in all.

I cannot give the details of every one of these particular institutions, but I should be very glad to forward to the hon. Lady the complete details of the buildings and of the types of children accommodated in them. I am trying this afternoon to give a general picture of what has been done, and of what we propose to do. In 1948, up to this month, another 11 schools have been opened—nine boarding and two day schools—accommodating altogether some 431 children. A further 50 proposals for new schools and extensions are under consideration. Local education authorities are being encouraged to make the utmost use of existing large mansions or other buildings which have been found in various parts of the country. To our mind, there is something particularly fitting in the fact that these buildings designed for the pleasures of a few are now being used for the benefit of those who really need care.

It might interest some Members on both sides of the House to hear how some of these country mansions which have been used in the past for the pleasures of the few are now being used. There is an Elizabethan mansion like Condover Hall, near Shrewsbury, scheduled as an ancient monument, which is now open for retarded blind children. There is Park Place, Henley, well know for lavish entertainment in the time of the Regency, which has been bought by Middlesex for educationally subnormal children. The Bishop's Palace at Ely is now being used for seriously crippled girls. Little Paddocks, Sunning-hill, which used to belong to Horlicks, is now a school for partially sighted girls. I propose to go through the list for the benefit of hon. Members opposite to show that a change has taken place in our outlook to this problem. There is Ovingdean Hall, a beautiful Georgian building which is being adapted at present as a school for the partially deaf. Rangemore Hall, which at one time belonged to Baroness Burton, has been bought by Burton-on-Trent to be adapted for the partially deaf.

Mounton House, near Chepstow, a delightful modern house which some of us know, which was built by the editor of "Country Life," has been bought by the voluntary managers of Swansea School for the Deaf. One is glad to say that Warwickshire have acquired as a school for educationally subnormal pupils the premises of the preparatory school which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) used to attend. Furthermore—this may not be palatable to all Members of the House, but I am sure that it will be interesting to some of my hon. Friends from Wales—we have even adapted some old public houses as school clinics.

I now turn to the question of school meals. The school meals programme is something for which my right hon. Friend and myself have the highest hopes. In this year of crises and shortages, hon. Members will, of course, appreciate that the attainment of our fullest ideals has not been possible. Nevertheless, we are moving steadily nearer to the goal. To begin with, the building programme is moving ahead. The work in prograss is employing a larger building force than ever before. In dealing with this programme, my Department is greatly assisted by the agency work undertaken by the Ministry of Works in fulfilment of the arrangements made in 1943 between the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) and the then Minister of Works, and I would like to acknowledge with appreciation the way in which the Ministry of Works has continued to serve the school meals service.

My hon. Friend has recited a list of mansions taken over for backward children in England. Does he think that old public houses are good enough for Wales?

I think the hon. and learned Member has made a mistake. I was referring to something which my hon. Friends from Wales will appreciate. I was suggesting that certain public houses have been taken over and that they were being put to a better purpose, we think, as school clinics.

I do not think my hon. Friend will mind my asking whether, as he has delivered a speech on the question of public houses in Wales and their utilisation, he can assure me that the licences have been dispensed with entirely and that they will not be kept either for staff or other purposes.

I can assure my hon. Friend that the licences have been revoked long ago.

The results of the combined efforts of the Ministry of Works and of local education authorities is that in the year June, 1947, to June, 1948, over 1,200 new canteens came into operation serving nearly 1,000 additional schools or departments. This is positive evidence that plenty is happening on the school meals front, and I know from the number of new projects which are being started from month to month that this progress should be maintained. As I go about the country, I hear a good deal of grumbling about equipment shortages. This is only one of the after effects of the 1947 crisis. When I press the question about the new equipment recently received, however, I invariably get an acknowledgment that it exists and that it is very much better than anything that the service has previously received. What it comes to is that the school meals service is now beginning to feel the benefit of substantial contracts placed towards the end of 1947 and in the early months of the present year. These should mature fully by the Autumn or Winter and considerably increased output is then expected.

The need for frequent orders for light equipment replacements has been a source of irritation to authorities and the Ministry are certainly anxious to minimise the complications and labour entailed on the part of local authorities in ordering these necessities. An announcement will be made at an early date of a new procedure which will go a very long way to simplify ordering. Authorities will be able to ask for a large number of items of light equipment in accordance with a ration based on the number of meals they are serving daily. This system will cover crockery, brushes and cloths of one sort and another. Cutlery is now coming along so well that it is not thought necessary to ration this and authorities will be able to order as they need it.

The result of all this is that more children are receiving meals at school than ever before. The total number now receiving meals is over 2,600,000, an increase of 400,000 over February, 1947. To put it in another way, there are now 21,451 school canteens serving 25,818 schools out of a total of about 28,570 schools in England and Wales. When it is considered how much a canteen means to even the smallest school, it is I think encouraging to reflect that nine out of 10 schools are now being served by canteens. The House this week has been discussing rural water supplies. As an instance of the paucity of water in rural areas one can illustrate that from a rural area in central England it is necessary from the rural schools to send knives, cutlery and crockery to a central washing station from no less than 15 schools, because no water was available where these 15 schools are.

It would be expected of me in a review of this kind that I should say something briefly about further education. The realisation of its importance by both industry and workers themselves and by local education authorities is apparent. This is shown by the rapid growth of part-time day release classes. It is estimated that the numbers being released this year run to over 200,000 as opposed to 127,000 in 1947. This is encouraging in itself and a sign that industry would welcome the establishment of the county college. This will be the next major reform as soon as the way is clear to introduce it.

Links have been formed between industry and education. Of these the most important are the Regional Advisory Councils, now in full operation. The national counterpart of this regional machinery—the National Advisory Council on Education for Industry and Commerce—has had its first meeting. There is every sign that local education authorities are availing themselves of the assistance of the councils to form really comprehensive schemes of further education.

In technical schools merely vocational technical education is only one side of further education. The young worker needs breadth in education so as to make him adaptable and he needs to have facilities for using his leisure wisely. Alfred North Whitehead has said, "If one understands all about the sun, about the atmosphere and about the rotation of the earth one can still miss the radiance of the sunset." I am glad to say that the local education authorities have now accepted youth services as a natural part of the field of further education. Their expenditure in aiding youth clubs has trebled since 1942, and is now 1½£ million as compared with half a million at that time. We want to maintain the voluntary principle in youth service as with adult education. We need the volunteer in this field—the doctor, the plumber, the business man, and so on—the people who are really interested in education and are prepared to give their services, and we are glad to record that we are getting them in increasing numbers.

We are anxious not only to improve the social amenities of the workers, but to give them opportunities within their capacity for living a fuller life, for further education of all kinds, whether it be the ordinary discussion group in a community centre or the advanced courses provided by the Workers Educational Association and universities. Perhaps the most gratifying feature is to note the growth of the latter. There were some 6,200 classes this year as compared with 6,000 a year ago, while numbers in attendance have risen from 56,000 in 1938 to 100,000 in 1947 and 138,000 this year. I am sorry that we cannot increase the provision of community centre accommodation on a permanent basis, but we have issued this year licences for 50 temporary village halls, and we are prepared to provide more temporary accommodation of this kind to carry us over the period of shortage.

This matter of further education is one of the most important aspects of the work. Last week I went to an industrial secondary modern school and visited three different classes where I found that the most appalling conditions and lack of interest can still prevail in the education of our children. In the first class I visited in this modern school where the girls were aged 11 I found that no less than 13 out of 30 had never seen the sea, 24 had never seen the nearest hills only 10 miles away, while five out of the 30 had never been in a train. When I went to the second class, which was aged 12, I found that 13 out of a class of 28 had never seen the sea, 10 out of the 28 had never seen the Lickey Hills which are only 12 miles away, and 18 out of the 28 had never seen mountain scenery at all. In the third class where the average age was 14 I found 25 per cent. had never seen the sea. I suggest that our conception of education demands that when these girls and many others like them in industrial areas leave school we should give them every possible opportunity for further education and youth service, so that they may learn by direct experience.

My final point is to say something very briefly on the subject of U.N.E.S.C.O., a sum for which appears in this Vote. I can only list a few of the notable happenings in this connection. There is the Ashridge Seminar where over 40 delegates from some 20 countries are attending a U.N.E.S.C.O. course on the education and training of teachers. There is an international summer school for public librarians to be held from 2nd September to 28th September in Manchester and London. Participants will debate and hear lectures on public library problems and will visit libraries in and around Manchester to see the actual working of the British public library system. The school will finish with a week-end in London. The students will include national, public and branch librarians from at least 16 States. There has been such a demand to come to this summer school in this country that U.N.E.S.C.O. has reduced the number of vacancies for each member State from five to four.

If I may, I should like very quickly to give details of some of the new appointments that have been made to the U.N.E.S.C.O. Secretariat. Dr. C. E. Beeby, who was director of education in New Zealand, is now the Assistant Director-General in charge of education. Mr. Lin Yutang, the well-known Chinese writer and philosopher, is the new head of the Arts and Letters section. Dr. Gimpera, who was rector of the University of Barcelona and then Minister of Justice in the Catalan Government before the Spanish Civil War, is now head of the Philosophy and Humanistic Studies Section. Of interest to our own country is the recent appointment of Mr. W. E. Williams, director of the Bureau of Current Affairs, Editor of Penguin Books, and Radio Critic of "The Observer" who has now become head of the Ideas Bureau in addition. If we are to have specialised agencies—and there are 11 of them—as part of the United Nations organisation for promoting world peace, agencies concerned with such things as banking, trade, postal services, conditions of labour, and so on, surely, we must have an equally powerful organisation promoting one world through things of the mind, the imagination and the spirit.

Does man live only by bread and by the economic organising of his daily life? U.N.E.S.C.O. is not a political stunt. Its preparatory work has now been done and the decks are cleared for action. Its programme is to affect every aspect of Intellectual life, even the intellectual life of the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn). It has accepted the challenge that education, science and culture are indivisible. Its Secretariat in Paris has become the centre of movements, institutions, and individuals, national in character, yet anxious to share and exchange knowledge in every field with other nations. We can understand the interest which U.N.E.S.C.O. has raised in our own country when we look through this British pattern of National Commissions, or, as we call them, National Co-operating Bodies. On them, 250 key people, covering every aspect of education from the care of the young child in the classroom to the most distinguished scholars, artists and scientists, are represented here.

In presenting these Estimates, and ending upon the note of international interest in education, may I quote the words of H. G. Wells:

5.34 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary has given us an interesting—

On a point of Order. Is it consistent with Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to more than amplify his passing reference to national colleges industrial colleges, and —taking his own expression that science was indivisible from culture—to say whether the Department itself is prepared to permit—

The hon. Gentleman's remarks seem to be merging into a speech. These points can be put into a speech if the hon. Member is called, and then an answer may be given at the end of the Debate.

The hon. Gentleman has given us a fairly complete review of these very large Estimates. I will not detain the House too long, because I know there are a great many hon. Members who wish, to speak. Therefore, I hope it will not be thought that I am trying to avoid any particular subject.

Let me first say that I think, from the manner in which the hon. Gentleman went straight to teacher training and from the tone of his voice, he does feel that the Government have handled this matter not entirely satisfactorily. I propose to deal with the question of teacher training in the course of the few notes I have put together, and will make one or two criticisms of Government administration in this matter. First, I want to make one or two observations about the general handling of the situation under the Education Act, 1944.

May I say, in passing, that the hon. Gentleman did manage to raise a cheer by referring to the houses of the privileged few which were being used for backward children. His observation was rather out of date because if I know the inhabitants or ex-inhabitants of any of those very large houses, they certainly do not regard them, in modern times, as giving them a particularly easy or privileged life. In fact, their occupancy usually results in an undue knowledge of an extraordinarily tiring form of domestic science. I have not met a single inhabitant of these mansions who has not been keen to move with the times. Therefore, I would like the hon. Gentleman to bring his knowledge in regard to such houses a little more up to date. I became a little confused, when he spoke about public houses in Wales for the partially blind and bishops' palaces for crippled girls, as to what his list was going to contain, but so far as I could make out, it was all very nice.

I was glad to hear what he said about mental health, and as one of the leading officers in the Society for Deaf Children, I would like to thank him for his remarks about special schools, and to wish him well in the report he has given. One observation I want to make about the settlement under the Education Act is that we did stress that education—be it perhaps the only subject in our many controversies in this House to be so—should be a subject upon which we could adhere to the facts of the difficulties we have to meet, and that we should have controversy about the manner of handling points, but that we should approach it, as far as possible, in a national manner. I have attempted to do that since I left office, and while we greatly value the Parliamentary Secretary's fun, which lightened his speech, I trust that the Government will omit as far as possible questions of class consciousness, social questions, and other matters which detract from the main subject of education, and which, I think, can pursue its way best in a national atmosphere and with the general approval of all classes and parties in this country.

I do not believe we should have achieved this Act unless we had had that spirit in the war. Those who have read the life of Dr. Temple, which has just appeared, will realise that had we not jumped for, and achieved, religious settlement at a time when there was a confluence of personalities ready to settle this matter, we should have landed ourselves in the post-war period with a controversy which would have made the situation much more difficult than it is today. I think, therefore, it would be interesting to hear from the Minister when he replies how he thinks this settlement is working out, how he thinks the general development plans of the authorities are going forward, and how the Church school question has been handled up to date. In my view, the religious settlement in regard to the Church schools has got to stand in its entirety. If it is gone behind by one section, whether the Church or any other section, it will not work. Therefore, I appeal to all parties to remember, in interpreting the Act, that this was a compromise reached by all parties and denominations, and that it will not be successful unless we respect the atmosphere in which it was created.

My main observation about the manner in which the Act is being carried out is that we should not try to do everything at once, and that what we do, we should do well. It would be quite easy for me, if I wished, to pick out points in the Government's case which are worthy of severe criticism. Nevertheless, I fully understand the difficulties of the times in which the administration has to be carried out. The one danger that I see is that the Education Act contains such a vast basketful of opportunities that authorities, and in particular directors of education, who are the most hard-pressed people in the country today, will try to grasp at everything at once, when we may well fall down trying to do too much in a short time. I have said before now, and I should like to state again, that I think it would take a generation to carry out the work which there is to do under the provisions of the Education Act, 1944. Therefore, let us try to do what we have in hand as well as possible, so as to make it last.

The first point I want to raise is this question of standards of education, first in regard to the secondary schools and then in regard to the primary schools. I do not apologise in an Education Debate for not devoting the whole of my time to administration, and for turning the attention of the House and of the country for a moment to this question of the standards of our educational provision. In my opinion, the standards of our educational provision are in great danger both in the secondary school and in the primary school. This is not necessarily due to faults of the teachers. It is due partly to concentration upon the wrong things at the present moment.

In the secondary sphere there is great danger that, owing to the competition with industry, the staffs of secondary schools cannot be adequately and sufficiently recruited in the right subjects, and I want to ask the Minister when he replies to turn his attention to the very serious staffing problems in the secondary schools at the present time, which are causing grave anxiety. I would like to ask him whether he considers that the new Burnham Award draws to the secondary schools the type of teacher who is necessary and the type of devoted teacher who is vital in the scientific and other departments which are in direct competition with industry.

I should then like to refer to the controversy which has been raging in the public Press on the question of the Minister's decision about the secondary schools examination, recently known as the School Certificate. I myself appointed the Norwood Committee, and that Committee has been called in aid to support the decision taken by the Minister that no child at a secondary school can take the examination before 16 and that some children may be as old as 16 years 8 months before they take this examination. My conclusion on this matter is that I am astonished at the ease with which the Minister has reached this decision, and I trust he will give us some explanation of his decision when he replies. It seems to me astonishing that a decision on this matter, which is so clearly against the wishes of the majority of secondary school masters with whom I have been in touch, should have been reached.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the Report of the Secondary School Examination Council on which are represented all the appropriate organisations, the secondary grammar schools and all who are interested? They reported that the age should be at least 16 years. I, myself, do not agree with that, but it cannot be sustained that the Minister has taken this decision hurriedly. There has been a most meticulous examination, and this is a unanimous report by a Council that was set up to consider the matter.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman, with whom I have had controversies and, indeed, agreements before, will allow me to develop my speech on exactly those lines. In fact, we may take as read that portion of my speech, because I was about to say that I was basing my observations on this matter on a very careful study of the Report of this Council, most of the members of which I know and all of whom I respect. I am astonished, however, that the Minister should have accepted its decision, because I think there was no need for him to agree with the Council.

The difficulty, as I see it, is that this is going to hold back children who could have taken the examination very much earlier than the age of 16 or 16 years 8 months. It will prejudice the later years of those children in the secondary school, and it will upset the training of these children who are destining themselves for a university later on. I do beseech the right hon. Gentleman to pay attention to the very serious criticism which is arising in the secondary schools at the present time on this matter, to get together some of the interested bodies, particularly those involved in education itself in the schools, to reconsider the matter, and to give us a decision after such reconsideration has taken place.

I have always had strong views about examinations, and I do not believe that an education can be good if it is dominated by an outside examination of any sort. In fact, the one advantage I see in the modern secondary school is that, thank goodness, so far they have got no examination at all. I want to express my opinion quite definitely that if this decision has been taken in order that there shall be some sort of parity between the secondary modern school and the secondary grammar school, I think the decision is based on wrong grounds, because although I would like to see some sort of test at the end of the modern school curriculum which would be valuable to children and would be appreciated by parents, it is quite impossible to equate the intellectual content of what is provided at a secondary grammar school and what is provided at a secondary modern school. One may be as good as the other, but parity of esteem will only be won if the general curriculum and the general occupation of the secondary modern school is suitable for life and for the children who go there, in exactly the same way as the general content of the education at a secondary grammar school will only be successful if it is not dominated by some external examination.

This decision of the Minister dominates the curriculum of the secondary grammar school to an extent to which it was never dominated before by the School Certificate examination, and as far as I can see, there are only two ways out. Either the Minister should revise his decision, or else he should announce as soon as possible that a completely new examination is coming in at once, which will be taken at 17 years of age or thereabouts, and which will not confuse the general curriculum of the school. I, therefore, appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to think over this matter again and to give us his decision in due course.

Now I want to say a word or two about the anxiety in the primary schools. As one would expect, this turns almost entirely on the shortage of women teachers and the immense size of the classes. I have figures here which show that infant classes in primary schools number some 3,227 classes with from 46 to 55 pupils; that junior classes numbering 8,066 contain between 46 and 55 pupils; and all-age primary schools have 3,620 classes containing between 41 and 45 pupils. In such circumstances, primary education is almost worthless. I put as absolutely A.1 priority this question of the reduction of classes in the primary schools. This cannot be done unless women teachers are drafted into these schools more rapidly than is being done at present.

When I was talking of standards, I said that I would refer to standards in the primary school, and, from experience which I have had in running an experiment for which I am responsible, with four or five continuation schools within industry—and it is a very salutary thing for one who has been a Minister to deal with something really practical, for once, with children—there is no doubt that the standards of the children coming to those continuation schools are not as universally satisfactory as they ought to be. In some cases, even the letters of the children are not as fully developed as they might be, and in many cases the arithmetic is backward. It seems to me that this is almost entirely due to the great crowding which takes place in these classes, especially in some of our cities. Although the ratio of one to 27.7 has been given by the Parliamentary Secretary, I assure him that even I used to be taken in by these global figures, but in fact if one examines this sort of thing, not with a centralised figure but on the spot, one finds the most unsatisfactory conditions in the primary schools.

Now I want to refer to meals. I understand that the number of meals has developed to about 2,600,000, perhaps a little more, but if we read the blue book which has been published as a report on education for 1947, we find that no date could be given for making the service free to all day pupils at grant-aided primary and secondary schools. The book went on to give reasons:

I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food is present, for I hope the Ministry of Food will continue to give the same assistance in the school meals question as they gave me during the Coalition Government, when I was Minister of Education. I believe the fact that we have these school meals and the milk scheme—to which I believe the hon. Gentleman did not refer—accounts very greatly for the improved life of the children in this country and may yet have a vital effect on the future of the race as a whole. There will be nobody more glad of that than my hon. and right hon. Friends on this side of the House.

I will say one word on teacher anxieties. The anxiety we have about these teachers is that we consider that during the last three years the Ministry might have foreseen that too many men were being recruited and too few women. I cannot put the case more simply than that. I agree that the Ministry have jumped to it since they appreciated this problem, but the fact is that there are a great many men who are being disappointed—the numbers run into thousands. The Parliamentary Secretary used the phrase "nobody would have to wait more than nine months." That is, of course, nine months more than was originally hoped.

We have all been deluged with cases from these young men and I shall take out the first case which I have brought in this massive brief. I note—and I will hand this letter to the Minister for him to see —that I had a reply on 25th March about an individual case from the Minister's private secretary, offering this man a vacancy in the late Summer of this year. The man has now written to me again, this month, and I have had further correspondence with the Minister, all of which I have here. It appears that he has been sent a circular to say that he cannot be allotted a vacancy at a college before the Summer of 1949. This random case picked out of my own folder—I shall show it to the Parliamentary Secretary—indicates a delay of up to one year longer than the young man expected. I therefore ask the Parliamentary Secretary why he used an expression such as "kept waiting not more than nine months." As I shall be ready to let him see, here is a very serious cause of disappointment.

We really must be careful not to disappoint these men. I do not mind saying that the response to the emergency colleges scheme, for which I was partially responsible, astonished me. The quality of the young men, and indeed the young women, coming forward is absolutely first-class. I have visited emergency training colleges and I can say that the spirit was excellent in almost every case which came to my attention. It is vital not to disappoint those who are waiting. I will not be irresponsible in this matter. I may say to these men that I think a period of delay is inevitable, despite anything we may say about miscalculations; the response was so good that in any case some men would have had to wait. There would not have been the colleges available to accommodate them.

What I say however, is this: do not let us lose any of these candidates for the education service as a whole. When the Parliamentary Secretary says he is "exploring," I will only say that if he is exploring means of giving these men financial assistance during the waiting period, so much the better; let the Minister come forward and state the position. But do not let him explore too long. We have put off this Debate on the Estimates to the very end of the Session, although this subject has been a burning one in the mail of hon. Members for months, and I consider a decision should have been reached on this matter at an earlier date in the hope of giving these men satisfaction. I hope the Minister will realise that I understand the problem as well as he does and I hope he will bring forward some palliative to try to save many of these men for education. Honestly, I do not think we can afford to lose them. I hope this scheme for allotting certain colleges to women will be effective, because I think we must have more women in the primary schools if the size of classes is to be reduced.

I promised that I would end by six o'clock, so I must be brief in my remaining remarks. On the question of administrative anxieties, I think the thing is to try to simplify administration in the offices of directors of education in the country. Personally, I never intended that local administration should be as complicated as it is now. If it is possible in any way to reduce the number of bodies serving in one county area, even at this stage, I, personally, should be very glad to see it. We are in danger of increasing the numbers of the secretariat of offices of education to an unlimited degree. It has never been my experience that a large bureaucratic army achieves any greater result than a small team. While I am very sympathetic with the problem of the administration of education at the present time, I trust for the Minister's sake that some simplification may be achieved.

In this connection, I want to mention one administrative problem in particular. At the present moment, or rather in the last month or two, choices have taken place for children to go to the grammar schools from the primary schools. Some local authorities have almost drowned themselves in hyper-conscientiousness in trying to ensure that every parent in their locality appreciates that little Tommy or little Molly is not really a satisfactory pupil for the grammar school. The result, in my opinion, has been that many parents, who never dreamed there was an opportunity of the grammar school for their children, have been disappointed. In my view, therefore, the purpose of the Act would be best served if this choice could be as simple as possible and if the extent of interviewing could be reduced only to those children who are really deemed possible candidates for the grammar school itself. The wider and fairer the attempt is made, very often the more disappointed hearts there are and the more unsatisfactory an opening for the operation of the Act itself.

I want to say one word about technical education. In the last Estimates Debate I was audacious enough to suggest that a body should be set up to deal with technical education at the centre. Since then the Minister has set up the National Advisory Council on advanced technology and I congratulate him on the choice of Sir Ronald Weeks as chairman. I would like to hear from him more about its meetings and what the committees are now doing. I believe the one hope of education receiving a large proportion of Government grants in this difficult time is for the Minister of Education to ally himself with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in proving to the Cabinet that it will be only by our skill of hand and eye that we shall survive the present crisis. I believe the Minister has this in mind and I wish him well in his attempt to get grants for the building of technical colleges.

Many of our cities—Birmingham, the Tyneside, Clydeside—are inadequately equipped in technical colleges at the present moment. I was glad to see that the Manchester College of Technology has had a large grant and I was glad to see in Wales the way in which the technical colleges are working with the universities. I want to say this in particular: in my view it may well be the case that in further education salvation will not lie in an undue expansion of the universities, which have not the accommodation for expansion and which, if expanded, would undoubtedly lose some of their character. It may well lie rather in the raising of the status of the higher technological colleges, with a view to giving them a status, not necessarily the same as the university, but linking them with the university in the way we are trying to achieve in the academic sense and which has been most nobly done in Wales. I believe we can give most satisfaction to students by raising in every way the status of the technical colleges of this country.

In conclusion, I will deal with U.N.E.S.C.O., to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred at the end of his speech. Here, for goodness' sake, let us try to simplify the procedure. As far as I can see in this field of international culture, we have already got U.N.E.S.C.O. with this broad, sweeping programme, including science and all sorts of other things, which I certainly never intended when I was at the Ministry of Education during the war. But we wish it well with that broad range of subjects. However, it is overlapping the machinery provided for in the Brussels Treaty for cultural work; it overlaps the machinery suggested at The Hague Conference for cultural relations; it overlaps the work which, so far as I can see, is done—or is not done—by the British Council.

I beseech the right hon. Gentleman to give us some sort of report on how this overlapping in the broad field of international culture can be changed, because if we are to have an office in Paris or Brussels set up by the Brussels Convention and an office at The Hague set up by the recent Hague meeting, and if the British Council are to do the really vital thing of effecting interchanges between students and teachers, which I think U.N.E.S.C.O. ought to do, we are going to get such an international bureaucracy as will send us all half crazy. I have always believed that in this sphere of internationalism we all get particularly starry-eyed when we should be most practical. Therefore, I beseech the Minister, in considering this matter, to bring U.N.E.S.C.O. back to earth, to tell us two or three simple results that have flowed from recent meetings and which do improve international exchange and culture. We wish him well if he can bring forward those examples.

But the plea on which I end, for domestic administration and for international work, is—"Simplify, simplify, simplify; be as practical as possible." Then we can make some sense out of an experiment which has never been proved in all history, and that is, Can we have a universal State system of education which preserves our standards and which produces out of our ranks the best that is in our children for the service of their country?

6.2 p.m.

When I listened to the Parliamentary Secretary today I thought that this side of the House could be very proud of the record of the Government in general with regard to education. The Minister has many things which are of great advantage to tell us as to the developments in the field of education. In particular, I rejoice that he has been able to obtain a reduction in the size of a number of classes. I see that the number of classes of over 50 has been reduced by 1,742, and that classes of over 40 have been reduced correspondingly.

I am prepared to pay tribute where tribute is due, but I felt that my hon. Friend today was a little conscious that the Ministry has fallen down badly with regard to the treatment of the emergency trainees and the students awaiting entry into college. Their best friends must admit that the Ministry have revealed very little foresight, if any at all, in this regard. For three years hon. Members of this House have been warning my right hon. Friend and the Parliamentary Secretary of an oncoming crisis in the staffing position in the infant schools. We have been blithely pushed on one side. We have been assured that everything was being done, that steps were being taken. But the crisis came, and they were unprepared.

We find now that they are seeking to solve the crisis in the infants' schools by creating another crisis for the men students who were lured or attracted into the teaching profession by the propaganda both of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) and of the present Minister of Education. The language used in the circular sent out on behalf of my right hon. Friend is pathetic, because he says that he has taken this step as the only means open to him to meet the situation now developing in the schools as the result of the increase in the birth rate. The only means that the Ministry of Education can think of for solving the problem of the infant schools is, to reduce the further training of men teachers.

The Parliamentary Secretary asked today if we could tell them of any steps that they might take. Obviously, the natural thing for the Ministry to have done was to have gone out to get as many women as men, earlier—to have attracted them, too. Other steps could have been taken. There is a large pool of woman-power not being used in the schools at the present time. In South Wales there is a considerable pool of married women who are not being used in the schools. My right hon. Friend knows very well that these women are being refused employment although the infant schools are crying out for teachers. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman has brought pressure to bear on the authorities. I hope that tonight, when he is replying, if he has brought this pressure to bear, he will tell us so publicly, that we may know where the responsibility really lies for the refusal to employ these women in the schools. We failed to attract the necessary number of women to the emergency training scheme because we deliberately concentrated on having the maximum number of men. We have had little regard for the human considerations of people brought into the scheme with a promise that they were entering a great and noble profession, people whom we have been chivvying about, while we have played with their economic circumstances. If the Minister had borne in mind the fact that there are a number of ways in which infants' school teaching can be made more attractive, he might have had a better result.

We might, for instance, have remembered that the Minister today is suffering from the dreadful legacy of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden, who has just gone out. I am sorry he has gone. He will come back, I expect. I want to say only this about him. He, when he was Minister of Education, for urbanity and a suave manner could not be beaten; for gentleness and courtesy he could not be beaten. But for his defence of the citadels of privilege, equally he could not be beaten. He maintained that there were to be classes of 40 in the primary schools and 30 in the junior schools.

I am so sorry—40 in the primary and 30 in the secondary. The teaching profession has never ceased to regard that as an offensive distinction against the primary schools, for the great mass of the children of the working-class people, at least, of this country all go through the primary schools, and large classes, apparently, do not do the same harm there as they do to children who have passed the age of 11. I believe that the unfortunate target at which we aim has been one of the reasons why we have not recruited as we should have for the infants' schools.

My information is that at the present time there are 302 men teachers only in charge of classes of children under the age of eight. It sounds a fantastic figure but it has been widely published in the educational Press, if not given in answer from the Treasury Bench. The number of women so employed is 40,633. Surely the Minister will agree that children of 6 plus can as well be taught by a man as by a woman. If the Minister says "No," I would refer him to any hon. Member of this House who has experience of teaching. It would be nonsense to say that we could not help to break down the problem of the infants' schools by attracting to those classes the men Who are in the profession.

In the Report issued by the Ministry the Minister estimates that men teachers hold only 40 per cent. of the posts in junior schools—not infants' schools—and that six out of every 10 of the staff of junior schools consist of women at the present time. If there is, as I know there is, a dire need for women teachers, surely we could afford to have a bigger proportion of men teachers in the junior schools. There is nothing sacrosanct about the 40–60 relationship, though I sometimes fear that the Ministry of Education itself has fixed a target which it has not revealed as to how many men shall enter the profession and what their proportion shall be to the women who are in the teaching profession.

Women are cheaper labour when they get four-fifths of a man's salary. I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that remark. The Minister might bear in mind that if he really wants to attract women to the teaching profession, he must not tell them that if they come in they will be treated as if they were worth only four-fifths of a man teacher. They carry exactly the same responsibilities and do the work as conscientiously—I sometimes think more conscientiously—

I believe that, by and large, women teachers are exceedingly conscientious, and I readily give them that tribute. The House should also bear in mind that this year, according to the Estimates published by my right hon. Friend, there are 5,000 trainees who are doing the work of teachers with complete control of their class. I wonder if he is not sacrificing these young people to solve the difficulty, because if they went out of the schools tomorrow my right hon. Friend would have a great headache about men teachers. If he has this dual problem, then let him recognise that the dire financial need of these young people is a disgrace to the rest of the treatment—the very generous treatment—which the Ministry gives to students in general.

Imagine the position of these teacher-trainees in the great metropolitan area of London at the present time. They get about £5 a week. They are married. Never mind how many children they have; they would not have many—they are young people. However, according to the Estimates, many of them have two or three children. These figures are published by the Minister. When the young man goes to college and when he gives up once again the work of teaching, not only will he receive his board and lodging free, but, in the London area, he will receive £2 10s. a week for himself, £2 a week for his wife, 15s. a week for the first child and 10s. a week for each succeeding child. Here we have a position where the young man who is in the school doing the job and having all the responsibilities of an ordinary citizen, is worse off financially than he will be when he becomes a student in college. "Alice in Wonderland" becomes dry and sober reading after this fanciful policy.

My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary gave an assurance this afternoon that my right hon. Friend is looking at this question. I appreciate the difficulty here, because if they go over the £300 a year for these trainees, they will be giving them more than a qualified teacher receives when he starts in a school. Of course, it is a headache for my right hon. Friend. I know what I would do, but I have not the power. Some might say "fortunately" but I say "unfortunately." The teaching profession as a whole must be told that if these young people are to be kept for training they must be better treated financially than they are at the present time. What is going to happen? I believe that there is a grave danger that the best of these young fellows—those with initiative, those with courage, those with any ambition at all—will say—I had better not say what I was going to say—"I am not putting up with this" and we might lose them from the profession.

I am not a Primitive Methodist. No hurt is intended to my right hon Friend who is, I believe, a Primitive Methodist. In the working out of the present scheme it is possible—the Minister is bound to see it—that those with a higher spirit or those who came in with high idealism two years ago will say to themselves, "Other jobs are being filled. If I am not careful I may find myself with another delay next year" because dates have been given before and then delays have followed.

I am very glad to be able to say to my right hon. Friend that I congratulate him on the happy position in the Principality of Wales. There the students are able to get into college a year before the lads in England, according to the circular.

For England, yes, but not for Wales. I find from reading the Estimates that we are given the number of teachers or the students who want to teach in Wales and then the students who want to teach in England. There is a year's difference for students who want to teach in Wales. But what about students who say that they are prepared to teach in either England or Wales. Many of my constituents, and many of my friends in the Principality, are prepared to move about, although the greater part of these young people are not mobile. I trust that when my right hon. Friend replies he will give the House some indication, not only that the Ministry are aware of the infant school problem, not only that they are aware that we shall keep on prodding them until these emergency trainees really have a better deal, but also how soon we shall hear from him of a solution.

Before resuming my seat, I welcome this opportunity of saying that in October next a new era in education in Wales will begin. My right hon. Friend has issued an instruction to local authorities throughout the Principality, setting up a Joint Education Committee for Wales. He has, I believe, interpreted aright the desire of our Welsh people. This gives an opportunity for union between the North and the South. In Wales we are about as united as the North and South of England; when talking to a man from the North of England he will tell you something about those who come from the South, and vice versa. Wales can give a lead once again, as she did in secondary education, and I believe that, with the help of my right hon. Friend, that Joint Education Committee ought to alter the whole course of educational life for our young people.

6.22 p.m.

We have heard a longish speech from the Parliamentary Secretary, who will, I hope, forgive me if I say that I found it rather complacent. The burden of his speech seemed to be: "What good boys are the Minister and I." It conveyed to me the impression that there were no further problems in education to be solved. He inferred that some of us on this side of the House would find it unpalatable that these old mansions were to be used for educational purposes. Far from it. We are delighted that this beneficent use should be found for fine old buildings which the owners find it impossible to maintain today. We also congratulate the educational authorities on having got in on this matter before the Minister of Fuel and Power.

Today, there is a tendency in some quarters to try to find a scapegoat in the Education Act of 1944 for some of the difficulties that face us in education today. I am very far from sharing that view, for I regard that Act as a tremendous achievement, in our best political tradition. It laid down the broad long-term policy, and within that policy there is any amount of room for variety and independence—and, of course, for making mistakes. If only L.E.A.s will avoid the "temptation to seek administrative convenience and to insist on over-standardisation. The besetting danger is over-standardisation. The price that must be paid —and this applies, I think, to any organisation—for independence is that some results should be better than others. In education, if initiative and vitality are to be preserved, that price is, I submit, one well worth paying; but it does call for forbearance and restraint on the part of L.E.A.s and their staffs.

There are two great dangers in the Education Act: First, in seeking equality of opportunity—a most laudable aim—it may be forgotten that quality is something still more important; and, secondly, organisation may become top heavy, and the machine may take charge. I am afraid that, to some extent, both of those things are happening, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will regard it as a most important part of his responsibility to see that those things do not ruin the hopes raised by this great Act. The other thing about the Act is that it is becoming clearer and clearer that when it is fully implemented the expense will be terrific. Whether it will prove to be within our national resources is sheer guesswork today. No section of the public purse is bottomless.

Before the war, I felt, as many others did, that the part of the national income allotted to education was too small. Today, it is bigger, and we measure these things, not so much in terms of cash expenditure as of physical resources and manpower. I do believe that in the long run one must be amazingly optimistic to think that education alone will escape having to limit the pace of its advance by financial considerations. I believe that in the remainder of the lifetime of all of us here we shall not be able to put in hand all those schemes we want to, but will have to select those which are most important. So today, when physical shortages compel us to mark time in education to some extent, it is very important to make sure that that part of the national income which is allotted to education is being spent to the best advantage.

There is a risk I think that today educationists are, through enthusiasm, attempting to spread the resources over too wide a field. While new activities are being added every day, there is a real danger that some of the fundamentals are not being concentrated on perhaps quite as much as they ought to be. I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary, that among the fundamentals we must put the question of teachers first. I hasten to say that I do not subscribe to the definition of education as, "The inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indolent by the inept." I believe education to be a personal thing, and if we are to get quality it will depend, more than anything else, on the quality of those through whom it is dispensed.

I have three questions on the subject of teachers which I wish to ask the Minister. Is he satisfied that the new Burnham Scale is yet in line with the scale of remuneration paid today in other professions? Is he satisfied that the increments for special qualifications are even now high enough? The second question concerns an aspect dealt with by the hon. Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. G. Thomas), on which I agree with everything he said. It concerns the remuneration of intending teachers who are waiting training vacancies and working in schools. I believe that the present rate of remuneration is not high enough. The third question concerns married women. Are they being refused employment by local authorities because they are married women? If so, it is a thousand pities.

I turn now to the intractable problem of accommodation, which obviously will be long with us. In my county, Devon, since the war we have been allowed to build only one new school. In what was known before the war as "reorganisation," although we got a flying start, owing to lack of accommodation we have still not been able to complete that job. I put in a plea to the right hon. Gentleman to encourage local authorities to go forward with the erection of buildings of light construction of the Horsa type. We used to think it was possible to look ahead and forecast the trends of school population with some certainty. The reversal of the birth-rate has upset so many of those calculations; and there are many other unforeseeable factors. In the past, I think that school buildings were too often of too permanent a type of construction. Today and for some years to come there is bound to be still greater priorities than schools—homes and factory extensions for export, but I think it is possible to go ahead to some extent with the construction of these light type of buildings which do not compete so much with house building.

But the greatest advance we can make in the short term is in the smaller size of classes. The present pace of improvement is disappointing. There are 30,000 primary classes of over 40 pupils. I did not quite understand what the hon. Member for Central Cardiff said. He seemed to imply that there was some class distinction between the primary and secondary schools in this matter. Surely, all pupils today go through both schools. Here again we are in a dilemma, and I think it is light types of buildings which may help to solve the problem.

I admit that I have not the courage to poke my nose far into this controversy about the new general certificate, and so I will confine myself to two observations which I think an amateur is entitled to make. First of all, I am intensely suspicious about this fixed age, because in a matter affecting adolescents it surely must nearly always be wrong to pitch on any particular age which is right for all boys and all girls. I suspect the worst here—a devil in a double disguise, the disguise of the "leveller" and of the "efficient administrator." Secondly, I am amazed it is proposed that a candidate should qualify for this new general educational certificate if he passes in one subject. Can that possibly be right? Luckily there is some further time for consideration and thought on this matter and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will see that that is given.

I want to pass for a moment to selection. When this question of selection for the secondary schools was discussed a few months ago in this House the concensus of opinion was pretty clear, that the age should be later than the present one rather than earlier—nearer 12 than 10. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman shares that view and will gradually bring that about. As regards selection for further education in universities and elsewhere, this is obviously a most important matter. It is a good thing that the right hon. Gentleman has set up this working party to advise him as to the basis of grants. I am surprised, however, that that committee is to include only three members from the universities, and these I believe exclusively representatives of the administrative side. That looks like a mistake which wants putting right.

Before I sit down, I want to say a word or two about the broad results of education today. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. What sort of young people are emerging from our national educational processes today? Are they better fitted than their predecessors were for life? Are they going to be better citizens? After making allowance for all the difficulties arising from the war and other causes, are our hopes being realised? Such opinions as I have been able to form are, I admit, mainly secondhand, coming from reports from industry and in particular those companies with which I am connected, from discussions with friends in youth movements and with those in the Services. As far as industry is concerned, we are all looking forward with great interest to the first intakes of those who have had the extra year's schooling and are now just leaving school. We are very hopeful as to what we shall get.

It is pretty good cheek of me to offer any conclusions at all, but my conclusions are that physically there has been an enormous improvement all round, that the average young person—if one can talk of an average young person—is sensible, adaptable, reasonably well-informed and in spite of the juvenile crime statistics, is reasonably well-behaved. So far so good. But on the debit side there are criticisms which give one some anxiety. We hear from so many sources that young people lack a sense of purpose and dogged application to whatever job they take in hand. Secondly, there are some doubts about how successful so far have been the efforts in teaching practical good citizenship, measuring that by consideration and concern for others. Most important of all, if true, there is a certain indifference to honesty in matters that may seem small and even superficial. I may be getting old and gloomy, but even if these charges are partly true, it is a sad commentary not on education but on the age in which we live, for which we must all accept responsibility.

I believe that we expect too much from our teachers. We expect them to put right the defects of our age and to carry responsibilities which parents should carry. We are trying to do expensively in the schools and through our educational services what should and must be done in the home. Those of us interested in education should keep that truth before us or with the best intentions we may run sadly off the rails.

I have one constructive suggestion to make. We have a chance today which we have never had before, of having our young men between the ages of 18 and 20 collected together during their period of National Service. What an opportunity that affords us to study results and examine the nearly-finished article. I urge the right hon. Gentleman to devise every possible means for getting the fullest advantage from that chance of checking up to see how far things have succeeded. It is impertinent on the part of one who has only partly succeeded in educating himself to hazard what could be put right, but I venture one suggestion.

It is a far cry from the time when the old 19th century dominie said: "It does not matter what you teach the little blighters so long as they hate it." We have moved far from that day and from those dreary methods and rightly so, but are we in danger of going a little too far in making things easy and optional? If the object of education is to prepare for life, then effort and discipline are needs that remain with us all to our dying day. I have some diffidence in talking like this in the presence of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister and of many Members of this House whose careers are striking testimony to these virtues, but I believe it is wise that we should take stock to see where we are going. In many ways we have definite and most encouraging results to record, but I think we should do well to make absolutely sure that these two virtues, effort and discipline, are still finding a proper place in our educational processes.

6.40 p.m.

Like the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Amory). I have one qualification to speak in this Debate, and one only, in that I speak entirely as an amateur. It is therefore with some trepidation that anyone who is an amateur in this sphere should enter into debate with the serried ranks of the professionals, particularly those on this side of the House and in competition with them. The hon. Member made several points with which I disagreed, but one with which I most sincerely agree—that we cannot build a sound educational system in this country if we make the mistake of expecting too much from it and expect it to rectify, in itself, what is wrong, not only with our social system but with our standards of morals and many other things which form the background to life.

A point on which I, as an amateur, would differ from the hon. Member is in connection with the age laid down for the new educational certificate. With great diffidence, in view of the weight of educational opinion on either side about this controversy, I suggest that there is some danger of even the brightest boy becoming a premature specialist. I was not at all bright as a boy, but I had a little superficial quickness in one or two respects which enabled me to stop doing the subjects I did not like rather earlier than I now think I ought to have done. I believe that I would be much better qualified to address this House today than, unfortunately, I am if, during part of those years, I had been compelled to submit to a little more discipline which, admittedly, I did not like at the time.

My main reason for speaking today, however, is to follow some remarks which were made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler). In the later part of his speech, the right hon. Gentleman pleaded for a vigorous march forward in the development and use of our colleges of technology. In this respect, he was echoing some words used by my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council who, in a recent broadcast, said that British scientists were unequalled in the world, but wondered whether we were too slow in making use of their discoveries. I do not wish to obtrude on the House too much, but a striking, if not up-to-date, illustration of the dangers to which a situation of that kind can give rise was quoted during an address given to the annual meeting of the Association of Technical Institutions this year. I would like to read it in full:

I would like to know how far use is being made of certain provisions which, administratively and on paper, have been made, namely, the extent to which our technical colleges are today being used for research? Ministry of Education Circular 94 was admirable and I would welcome it if the Minister were able to give details of the extent to which practical effect has been, and is being, given to its provisions. Further, it is clearly of the utmost importance that there should be very close connection between the technical institutes, where more or less theoretical work is carried on, and industry itself. I am told that it is very difficult to attract lecturers from industry to such institutions, because the part-time rates of pay are too low to attract the right men. I am also informed that sometimes this difficulty is overcome by the simple expedient of a number of industrialists being sufficiently public-spirited to give their services free. That is not satisfactory; we cannot always expect busy people to give their time in that way, and I hope it will be possible to solve this problem at an early date.

We all welcomed last year the introduction of technical State scholarships, but I wonder whether they are being taken up by a satisfactory type of pupil. If they are not, the whole scheme will be fruitless. We cannot expect the right type of pupil to come forward all at once, but I hope the Minister will be able to tell us of satisfactory progress in this direction.

Finally, apart from the field of purely technical education, which can be at best only a part of a very much wider whole. I hope that my right hon. Friend will impress on education authorities the importance of really liberal action to ensure that scholars who are over the school-leaving age, but under the university age, and whose means are insufficient for them to continue their education without help, are helped in a useful and generous manner. It is always difficult in education Debates to avoid confining, oneself either, on the one hand, to questions purely of administrative detail, or, on the other, to giving vent to flatulent generalities that carry the matter no further. Here, in this direction, is an opportunity for the local authorities and the Government to take action which will result, if properly handled, in education being available to those best qualified to use it, and fulfilling its proper functions in the community, namely, to help each individual to live the kind of life that he is best fitted to do according to his capabilities.

6.53 p.m.

I hope the House will be a little indulgent to me if I behave less well than I hope I usually do in sitting through the Debate. When we have a Debate like this coming on at such short notice it is sometimes not possible to get out of other engagements. I hope also that the House will forgive me if my remarks are a little disjointed. I have no continuous thesis to propound, but I wish to comment on, and to ask questions on, four or five of the topics that have been raised earlier this afternoon.

First of all, I should like to say a word about the school certificate or about what is going to take its place. When I say "what is going to take its place" I mean the entity or the want of entity—the gap—that is going to take its place.

I can quite see the argument of a negative character from the speech of the hon. Member for Walsall (Mr. W. Wells) to which we have just listened. There are many people, and I, like the hon. Gentleman opposite was one of them, for whom it would have been much better if they had been made to pay attention to two or three topics when a lot younger, for another year or two, in spite of being desirous to escape from them. I just had enough wits to escape out of that field. That is the negative case for what is being done, and I think it is the better and the bigger half of the case. I do not think that that case really leads to the solution now being adopted, because a boy with intelligence, whether real intelligence or bogus intelligence, who has enough intelligence or bogus intelligence to get through the school certificate and then drop mathematics or languages or whatever it happens to be which bores him, that boy will have enough intelligence to get out of anything more to do with that subject even if you delay his examination.

The fact of the matter is that one may make a boy continue with algebra until he gets to the level at which he knows enough algebra to get him through the school certificate. That boy is then quite clever enough to take whatever steps are necessary to escape any further instruction or education in algebra, languages, or whatever it may be. I do not think that that argument is very helpful; and anyway, what I should like to know is what is the positive view that the Minister has about what should be substituted instead of the school and higher certificates. Those certificates certified something: nor do we know what the new reports or certificates are; the school certificate in the old form, with the minimum number of subjects, and minimum requirements about subjects which had to be chosen from this side and from that—that was not something which suddenly came out of somebody's head but that happened as a result of the demand of academic and professional bodies over the previous century. These demands were something which had been met in the past partly by private or semi-private enterprise, e.g., the College of Preceptors—which incidentally was the way travelled by H. G. Wells, who was used as an intellectual saint earlier in this Debate.

Those professional and academic bodies are going to continue to need to be assured before admitting boys to their ranks that the boys have had the sort of education which makes, prima facie, them suitable for what they are going to do with them, whether to employ them or use them for making profits, which we all know to be wicked, or for personal prosperity, which we all know to be highly commendable, or to teach them something more, they need to know what opportunities a boy has had so far and how he has availed himself of those opportunities; and what I am not at all clear about is how the Minister supposes that that is going to happen.

I do not know whether it is proposed to do that on the basis of reports. I have always thought that one of the greatest public servants of our time is Sir Ralph Furse, who is mainly responsible for the selection of candidates for the Colonial Office, and, apart from his general qualifications, his special qualification has been that he knows exactly what importance to attach to testimonials from nearly every university, college, teacher or professor and nearly every housemaster and sixth form master of nearly every educational institution in this country. He knows exactly what degree of reliance to place upon them. However, I do not see how we are going to expect that such a system of finding men so expert would be possible for the innumerable professional and academic bodies which want to know what is the educational achievement of applicants up to the age of 16 or 17. I do not know how we are going to expect that all these bodies are going to be supplied with a man of the sort of order and understanding of Sir Ralph Furse. I should like to know how it is expected that we are going to do these things when we are reducing or abolishing the old certificate examinations almost to nothing.

Another subject which was mentioned in the speech of the hon. Member for Walsall was the topic of technology and the technical schools, and I should like to confirm what he said with my opinion for what it is worth. We have very much under estimated and under valued technical and technological—if there is a distinction between the two—education in this country during the last two generations. There is a great deal more which ought to be done for them and a great deal more ought to be done for them of which we are often trying to do for the universities and by which we are really making them no better off.

I want to say one word on what I know will be regarded as controversial and that is on this business of status. My experience of life is that every man who thinks about his status is unhappy all his life, and, generally, deserves to be. I am not at all sure that the same thing is not true of institutions. What I am pretty sure about is that what cannot be done is to give status. There is no known method of doing it, and the less we think of our status and the more we try to persuade people and institutions that status is not proper matter of care for free grown-up men the better we shall get along.

I want to ask a much more general question. How many teachers, from the university down to what might be called the child minders—if that is not too insulting a term to use in regard to them or up from them—do we think a population of 50 million can carry? I ask the question especially in two senses. The first sense: I presume that we all agree that teachers ought to be persons of a little more than average intelligence, not perhaps enormously, but perceptibly more. What proportion of the population is perceptibly more intelligent than the rest of the population? I do not know. What is the answer to that? I cannot conceive how we can, under this system which spends I do not know how many millions of pounds and directly controls almost all of what is called education, and indirectly controls the rest of the education in this country—I do not see how we can run such a system unless we intelligently answer that question. Has the right hon. Gentleman put that question to himself, and has he put that question to the people who are supposed to be able to supply the answer?

Another question: I should like to know how many teachers we can afford apart from this question of superior ability. Assuming that all the 50 million persons in this country are of almost exactly equal abilities, if one can weigh up their abilities, on that assumption, what proportion of our population can we afford to have teaching the rest of the population? Has anyone worked that out? We hear all this stuff about classes being reduced; whether it is merely words or means anything at all turns upon this question: Is it possible and desirable to get more and better teachers or, at least, more teachers, and not less good, than the present ones? I think that we are long overdue for a very careful and, as near as possible, scientific inquiry into that question.

We have something like 250,000 teachers—something like 200,000 under the right hon. Gentleman's immediate ægis and, if I may guess, 50,000 university teachers, private school teachers and so on. What proportion is that of the population? It is a very large proportion of those between the ages of 25 and 65. It must be half to 1 per cent, or nearly 1 per cent. Is it possible to go on increasing that number without lowering the intellectual average among the teachers which no one—and I speak as a teacher—would claim at present to be as high as it ought to be?

There is a similar question which I should like to put to the right hon. Gentleman. I have seen it asserted in learned journals and pamphlets frequently in recent months that it might be demonstrated or even measured that intelligence is diminishing. I am not persuaded that that is true. I think that a great deal of what is called psychology, and the measurement of capacity and intelligence, is hocus pocus. For all I know to the contrary, the rest of it may be wrong. May be, but it may not be so. If it is so, and if all that stuff is either hocus pocus or mistaken—if that is right—this is surely the most dangerous of all human enterprises, that the State should take charge of the whole of education. If it is true that all these attempts of psychologists and the rest of them to measure intelligence are half hocus pocus and half mistaken, then surely the enterprise of which the right hon. Gentleman opposite is the Sir Galahad is the most dangerous and most desperate of all chivalrous enterprises. I would not like to say that it is a fool's errand, though that be another way of putting it.

If there is some possibility of going about this technically, has there been full consideration to try to get the best possible decision? Is there evidence that intelligence is going down? Some of the best so-called experts say that there is, and have even purported to measure it. If that is true, then obviously at least one or perhaps both, of two things are wrong. Either education if not exactly bad but in fact must be at least less good than that of a generation or two generations ago, or the population must be breeding from the less intelligent rather than the more intelligent end of it, if indeed there is any such biological distinction. I make no assessment about either. If it is true that intelligence is diminishing, then at least one of those two things must be true. If either of them is true, or at all apparently probable, it is perfectly clear that the whole of our educational policy and administration wants looking at from every kind of point of view and at every sort of level.

No I will not give way. I have heard the hon. Gentleman interrupt a good many people, including myself, on a good many occasions, and I have always regretted it. There are three more fairly specific points on which I would like to ask questions. One is about the payment of graduates. Is the Minister certain in his mind that the, I think, very small additional payment which graduates at present receive under the Burnham scales—is the Minister quite certain that they are sufficient for either of two purposes: either to make sure that the percentage of graduates on the teaching staff are what they would wish, or to make sure that among the graduates they engage there is a sufficient proportion of the really intelligent? I find it difficult to believe that the difference in remuneration is enough.

There was a time when on almost all issues right hon. and hon. Gentlemen to the so-called left of our politics were always in favour of equalising wage rates, but I think that time has long gone by, and I think that they ought to consider, with open minds, whether they are paying graduates sufficiently more than non-graduates. Secondly, there is a question which I have often asked before, and which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for asking once more. That is about art education. When was there last any very systematic attempt to follow up the results of art education? I do not mean for a moment to suggest that art education would be proved to be maladministered if it appeared that most of those who study art at a very early age in life do not pursue it professionally for long. I do not think that would prove that art education is not on the right lines, but I think that it might be interesting to know what proportion of the persons who receive art education, especially after the school leaving age, continue to be, so far as can be traced, in any sense artists.

I should like to ask, as I have asked Ministers of all parties: Would not it be worth considering spending less on art education and spending more on pictures and other products of artists? I believe that if we spent half as much on art education and allowed the Minister to spend a considerable number of hundreds of thousands a year on buying pictures from artists under the age of 30 or employing artists to paint frescoes on school walls he would not waste money, not this one but another Minister, on his relatives or his partisans. I am sure that the Minister would not always choose the wrong artist; he would sometimes deviate into sense, and even if and when we had such bad pictures that after a few years we could not stand the sight of them and burnt three-quarters, we should do more good than at present.

Or if you took young gentlemen who had been to art schools and take them through Government offices with the disgusting enamelled iron numbers on the doors in Government offices, or the disgusting and revolting carpets made on Bokhara patterns with the colour degraded and the pattern degenerated and scale nearly exaggerated out of anything relating to the original lines—the things one gets after reaching the £800 a year level—it surely would not be impossible to get these people to tell Ministers what sort of carpets they ought to order instead. I seriously believe we should get artists worth having in the course of 20 years if we spent half of our money in that way, of the money we spend on art education at present.

The last thing I want to ask, I should have asked when I was talking about certificates or the absence of certificates. Everyone is agreed—when I hear people say in this House, "All history teaches us—" I know something unusually foolish is about to be said, and I foresee hon. Members thinking that when I begin a sentence with "Everybody is agreed" probably something quite lunaticly controversial is coming. But I think it is true that it has generally been agreed over the last 30 or 60 years, among those concerned with education, that one of the great difficulties in most countries—and rather specially in this country for historical reasons—has been the preservation in education of a common content. We are rapidly approaching the time when there may be two boys equally intelligent, equally well educated, at equally good schools, and possibly at equally good universities—if there are two equally good universities—who, at the end of that process have of course the language in common—in the sense that when either says, "Have a drink?" the other knows what it means, but hare not much more than that in common—have a different system of allusions, of literary, intellectual, and philosophical allusions and assumptions—especially the unconscious ones which are the ones which matter most. So that we fall into considerable risk of forming two or more nations in that way, a way more dreadful than the old way.

I do not suggest for a moment that the old school certificate and higher certificate system as run for the last 50 years has entirely avoided that danger; but that system has been one of the safeguards against the worst of the danger which I think I have sufficiently indicated. The question I wish to put is this: What is to be the safeguard now? It ought to be a better safeguard than that, because that certainly was not good enough. What safeguard can the Minister promise us of which he is at least sure that it will not be less good than that safeguard was?

7.12 p.m.

May I be permitted to exercise a polite paraphrase and say that I do not propose following the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) down "the Pickthorn path of dalliance"—

I was prohibited by adherence to good Order from asking one or two questions of the Parliamentary Secretary when he was making his observations and, in a conscientious manner, I want to keep to those questions rather than take the advantage of following a Debate which is extraordinarily interesting to one who is associated with education authorities and education in industry generally. Could the Minister explain a little further the cursory reference which the Parliamentary Secretary made to the county colleges, and would my right hon. Friend be good enough to describe the stage of organisation at which they have arrived, and what is the general level which the Wool College and similar colleges are likely to reach in future? May I express again a special plea for the raising of the status of those technical colleges which have demonstrated their efficiency to university status or something commensurate with that? I make no apology to the Minister in asking for that university status to be conferred upon the Bradford Technical College, for it is justified by the excellent services which that college has rendered to industry and education in Bradford, and the county generally.

We have reached a stage when educational values of all types have to be trans-valued. I think we are in an evolutionary period, and our conceptions of the terms of education have to receive a new connotation entirely and we have to face a new set of circumstances with new educational instruments. If I may draw an analogy, just as the Minister of Health has insisted upon hospital committees, which are of a special type and quality to serve the community, having their own management committees, I think technical colleges should be raised to a status which will enable them to serve the community even with a limited number of chairs and subjects, and yet apply themselves as specialists to the subjects and problems with which they are confronted in their area.

7.16 p.m.

The comprehensive review which the Parliamentary Secretary has made this afternoon over the educational field doubtless means that only a few of the details can be dealt with thoroughly, and shows again how little time is allotted in the Session to the important subject of education. Education certainly does not consist only of the philosophy of education itself, but also in the administration of education. One question which poses itself is whether the standard of education is declining or not.

I was interested in the remarks of the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) when he asked whether the standard of intelligence has declined in this country. It is a question I have asked myself very often in regard to my own county, and my opinion is that we are not less intelligent today; rather the standard of intelligence is considerably higher than it was 30 or 40 years ago. That, of course, comes from my own experience and so cannot be taken as too authoritative. The hon. Member mentioned another point in which I have been interested for a long time, art education. I have tried to find out what our art students do after they have left the art college, and I have followed the careers of some of our own art students in Surrey for the last three or four years. The result has been disappointing in many ways. The only thing which a few of them seem to do is to obtain jobs with commercial art firms—not a very high standard of job. Artists are obviously born, and not made. The only virtue which can be ascribed to the teaching of art in art schools is that it makes the students do something—it makes them create something and produce something; that, in itself, is of immeasurable value.

The hon. Gentleman suggested that we should have good pictures. We agree on that point and I think the Minister is to be congratulated that his Ministry, particularly in the last few years, has given great encouragement to schools to buy good pictures and have them hung up. The only trouble with some of the modern artists is that one is not quite sure whether their works are hung the right way up, but with the old and tried type of art and picture there is very little difficulty. I am quite sure that in this way we assist in cultivating the artistic mind. I maintain, however, that although the results of the art we teach are very poor, the attempt is well worth while.

This afternoon I wanted to descend, shall I say, into the prosaic field of building, about which it is very necessary to talk. When the question of raising the school-leaving age became prominent I, amongst others, was very anxious that we should take the plunge without any great delay. As the time for its inception drew near, however, I began to be fearful as to whether it was a wise decision to raise so quickly the school-leaving age to 15. Indeed, I asked the Minister whether he really felt assured that in raising the school-leaving age in April, 1947, the right thing was being done.

It must have been very present in the mind of the Minister that the two prerequisites to the raising of the school-leaving age were, first, buildings, and certainly, secondly, staff. One would have imagined that, before the Minister and the Government took the decision which they did, the Minister would have obtained from his colleagues in the Government sufficient assurance that they would be behind him in the provision of both adequate and necessary building and also the requisite staffs.

I was quite sure that this afternoon the question of teachers would be adequately dealt with my other hon. Members. Therefore, I thought it would be as well that I should address myself more particularly to the question of accommodation because, although prosaic, as it may be, it is and must be recognised that unless we have the right places in which to teach we cannot successfully, or so successfully, teach. We know the problem of the big class in a very small room. One of the first things to remedy is to have more rooms so that we may have smaller classes. I know it may be very desirable to limit the numbers in classes in our primary schools, not to 40, but to 30, but unless we have the room I do not see how on earth we can do it, quite apart from the question of staff. Therefore, we really must have the room.

I was very pleased when it was announced by the Ministry two years ago, I think, that they had devised a system of the provision of prefabricated huts—the Horsa system—in order to cope with the raising of the school-leaving age. These huts were to be allotted to the local education authorities who were asked to make known their probable requirements over a period—and not too long a period. As far as I remember, my own authority required 2,000 of these huts to deal adequately with what we thought would be the result of the raising of the school-leaving age. That was for my own county alone. When the Parliamentary Secretary today very glibly talked of the 5,000 or 6,000 huts—or classrooms, if we like to call them by a better name—which have been provided, he spoke with no relationship to the total figure required. To talk of 6,000 extra classrooms is a mere bagatelle; what we want is 50,000 classrooms in this country—today, and not in five years' time.

The problem facing me is whether children are getting any benefit whatsoever from the raising of the school-leaving age. When the 1944 Act was introduced, parents in this country were pleased at the thought that it meant secondary education for all; that their boy and their girl in future would have equal chances of secondary education with those fortunate boys and girls who passed into the grammar schools after their examination at 10 or 11 years of age. I am afraid their confidence has been very much misplaced and it is a commonplace thing now to hear from parents—and I am constantly hearing it—that, in spite of the new Education Act, they cannot see their Mary or their Johnny getting a chance of secondary education, whereas they thought that their boys and girls were to have secondary education now.

The Parliamentary Secretary was very careful to deal with buildings in his speech, and I was glad to hear him say, regarding the provision of and assistance for buildings, that the Minister was anxious to cut out red tape and reduce delays; that plans need be submitted only once and that, indeed, we can start building before the quantities are out. Even so, my experience is vastly different. Last year, which is not so very long ago, I was anxious that my authority should erect a school of six classrooms in place of one which had been bombed out. The project was immediately submitted to the Ministry. We were told that, unfortunately, no Ministry of Works huts were available and that we should have to make our own arrangements for some light form of construction. Our architect thereupon immediately busied himself to produce the necessary plans. Having successfully produced the plan we were then informed by the Ministry that some Ministry of Works huts were now available and that we could have them. Naturally, this meant re-casting the plans again.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, my local authority decided that in providing a temporary or prefabricated school of this size we ought to have a kitchen as well as a dining room—that was a necessity. We re-cast the plans and again submitted them to the Ministry, showing the proposed addition of the kitchen and dining room. We were told, however, that we could erect the school but that we should have to cut out the kitchen and dining room. We re-submitted the plans and were then told that we must give more detailed drawings showing on the plan itself exactly where the equipment was to be placed. I do not call that cutting out red tape. Such methods are not helping the local authorities in their difficult task of providing these buildings. For these reasons, I am pleading with the Ministry on behalf of whom the Parliamentary Secretary this afternoon promised that they would cut out red tape in regard to buildings. I wish that he would not only cut out red tape concerning buildings, but would give local authorities more freedom in the erection of buildings and making their own arrangements for light construction work without using Ministry of Works huts.

Although it may sound useful and generous to an education authority to be told that they will be supplied with huts by the Ministry of Works, I must remind the House that in some instances the erection was only partly done, which meant that the local authority, after the shell had been handed over, had to finish the building and equip it. It is very much better that local authorities should be allowed to do the whole job from start to finish. It has meant considerable delay. I am sorry to quote this, but it is essential that these things should be quoted because the Minister says he is cutting out red tape and helping local authorities and not putting difficulties in their way. Only this week we are adding two classrooms to a school and it was desired to put down a common type of block floor. We were told by the Ministry that in asking for the release of 68 cubic feet of hard wood, or wood block, flooring we must produce a copy of the letter from the contractors showing (1) the price of the timber, (2) a firm offer of sale to the county council, (3) the amount of timber and (4) where the timber can be inspected; and the letter concluded

This is not the only example of the difficulties which we are daily experiencing. My right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) mentioned the great increase in the number of officials the Ministry are appointing and the number of officials with which local authorities are now deluged. I wish to goodness that instead of loading us with more officials the Ministry would give us some help in getting down to the practical situation which faces us in regard to the provision of secondary education to boys and girls to whom it has been promised. We cannot provide it unless we have the buildings and staffs. The Parliamentary Secretary told us to brighten up old buildings. That may be good advice, but it comes a little late. We have been doing that for years, and in many cases it is only the paint that holds them up. It is easy to tell us to make them bright, but we wish to provide the buildings in order that boys and girls can get the education.

The hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) says, "What a Tory legacy!" In what a diligent fashion have this Government dealt with the problem in the last few years! Now the Minister comes and tells us to paint the schools to hold them up.

I am afraid it is perfectly true that local education authorities are very bewildered because the Ministry do not give us the support we expected. I know the Minister is the most well-intentioned we could possibly have. Every one wishes to give him most hearty co-operation. He has asked for the co-operation of the local authorities and we are ready to give it to him if we can see signs of reciprocal treatment by the Ministry. I am not blaming the Minister, but it is on him or his officials that the blame must lie.

The Minister found comfort the other day in saying that 140 development plans had been received and nearly half had been dealt with, that 90 letters had gone out to L.E.As commenting on the plans and 10 had been approved. So far so good, but although the Parliamentary Secretary told us of grandiose plans he had for the next five years for buildings and staffs, I would rather he had told us what he is going to do next year and the year after in definite figures rather than in arid promises which may or may not eventuate. It is necessary that some steps should be taken in order that promises given under the 1944 Act to local education authorities may be implemented and every child get a secondary education. The difficulty may have arisen because of the bulge in the primary schools but, if not actually foreseen, that ought to have been thought about. It happened after the 1914–18 war and we might have been forewarned in that respect.

I hope the Minister will be able to say something definite tonight in regard to buildings in order to give encouragement to local education authorities to make that very essential provision in order to implement the raising of the school-leaving age. I am sorry to say this, but I say it after thought and careful examination. I do not think the standard of education in our schools is any better than it was a year or two ago. I would like to be able to say that I saw definite signs that the standard had definitely improved. In many cases we have been able to get extra classes in some central schools and I am glad we have had success in that direction, but it has been limited. I want to see that much more generally applied to all schools. There is just as great competition today for boys and girls to get into the established grammar and secondary schools as ever—in fact greater competition. If we could get more provision in the new secondary schools for the new range of secondary education, we could begin to say that we were making great progress.

In regard to canteen arrangements and dining rooms, I think the Minister is to be congratulated on considerable progress having been made, but we still have many difficulties and the teacher still has the difficulty of having to put up with the feeding in the schools. These difficulties can only be resolved by time because it is a question of further provision of building. We may also get over the difficulties in regard to feeding arrangements when we recruit sufficient staff so that teachers will be entirely free for teaching instead of having to see that children have their meals regularly and properly.

I notice that the Parliamentary Secretary did not deal with the question of the provision of boarding schools. I thought that was a subject on which he would have told us something because it is a matter with which local education authorities have to deal. He was right in stressing the wonderful provision that is being made at special schools for physically handicapped children. I think everywhere great strides have been made in that regard. In many cases that progress has been made because of the old mansions and big houses which have been taken over. I will not delve into their antecedents, in which I am not interested, as I am only interested in the facilities offered in the number of houses we have been able to buy and utilise for this purpose. I suggest that the Minister should encourage local authorities also to acquire such mansions and turn them into boarding schools. I am sure it was in the mind of the hon. Gentleman, although it was not mentioned. I am grateful to the. Minister for having materially assisted in the successful conclusion of one such project.

Is the hon. Member still referring to schools for physically handicapped children?

No, I have gone on to boarding schools, which of course can now be provided, and I think might easily be provided, by the local authorities.

Although the Parliamentary Secretary appeared to have an excellent story to tell, it was not all that good. Those of us who are in close association both the teaching side and the administrative side of education know that things are not too happy in the educational world because there is so much we have to do, so much we want to do and there is so little that we can do. I hope that, in relation to the provision of buildings, the Minister will be able to prevail upon his colleagues to ensure that he has a greater priority or a greater share in the available building materials during the coming year and the year afterwards in order to remedy this great deficiency of classrooms and practical rooms so as to implement our secondary educational system.

My last word is on technical education. Here the Ministry may have reason to be satisfied to a large extent. We have not yet got the new colleges but we have undoubtedly been able to lay the foundation for an excellent system of extended technical education in this country. I am quite sure in this regard that when the opportunity comes for the provision of the buildings the Ministry will be well prepared and able to implement the plans for the provision of the new technical education to which we all look forward.

7.42 p.m.

Before I entered this House I was a teacher but this is the first occasion upon which I have managed to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, in any educational Debate. It would therefore be tempting to speak at great length tonight on many educational subjects but I do not propose to do so. I have promised that I will not speak for a long time, as I know that there are still many other hon. Members who wish to speak in this Debate. The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. S. Marshall) must have been speaking with his tongue in his cheek when he tried to put the responsibility for the old and dilapidated school buildings on the present Government. Surely he has heard about our post-war difficulties in regard to building materials and builders. How much easier it would have been to have done these things in the period when builders were unemployed and there was a large amount of building material available with which to build the schools.

When listening to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) I always feel that when he speaks about education, he is much more impartial than his hon. or right hon. Friends on the Front Bench opposite are when they speak about any other subject. But I was rather amazed to hear his profound statement today—I think I am quoting him correctly—that we ought to eliminate class consciousness from our discussions on education and make education something that was national. We on this side of the House could not agree with him more. We think that education has always been an instrument of class consciousness and class distinction and it is this which we are seeking to eliminate.

We much appreciate everything that is being done by the Ministry of Education, and if we feel that we would like more to be done, I hope that the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary will realise that educational reformers are never satisfied. I hope that they never will be, because there is always a great deal more to be done. I was also interested to hear the arguments of the hon. Member for postponing the raising of the school-leaving age. I could not have disagreed with him more than when he said that. I know that the buildings were not all ready and that all the teachers were not there but I would go so far as to say that a poor school building is a better place than a modern factory for any girl or boy of 14 years of age. So I agreed entirely with the Government when they decided to raise the school-leaving age even though we knew that there would be difficulties in the way.

I wish to speak upon two subjects, and the first is that of school meals and milk. Very early in my teaching career I learned that nutrition was the most important part of education, because no teacher can teach a class of children who are not fed in the right way. I remember that when I started my teaching career—it was in a mining village—it was discovered, when the school medical officer came to that school, that 73 per cent, of the boys were suffering from malnutrition. Since those days there has been a tremendous improvement in the health and physique of our Schoolchildren. Any teacher today looking round a class of children sees a sight different from that which he or she saw a few years before the start of the war in 1939. The position in regard to milk is quite satisfactory because 4,360,000 children out of 4,963,000 are receiving free milk.

Or pasteurised milk. To turn to meals, although the Parliamentary Secretary has had a good story to tell about the figures I do not see that the position is yet as satisfactory as it might be. The figures show that although we have made substantial improvements, only some 51 per cent. of children are receiving meals at school and only 12½ per cent. of these are receiving the meals free, which means that out of the total school population only about 6 per cent. are receiving a free mid-day meal at school.

I would remind hon. Members that when we introduced the family allowances scheme it was on the assumption that the total amount received would be more than 5s. We always had in mind 8s. as the figure for family allowances and it was our view, quite rightly, that some part of that should be an allowance in kind and should not be all in cash. I agree with that. The allowance was regarded as being 5s. in cash and some 3s. in kind. I hope that the Government and the Ministry will press on as quickly as possible with the provision of meals in order that as soon as possible the parents of this country may be receiving the full benefits from our family allowances scheme.

I now turn to the subject of secondary education. One of the most important reforms of the 1944 Act was that all children should receive a secondary education. The first essential for this is that all children over 11 and those under 11 should be in separate schools. Up to now there has been too little progress with reorganisation, and I am not speaking merely about the last three years. At the beginning of 1947 over 78 per cent. of our children in maintained and assisted schools were in separate schools or department for over 11s, which meant that some 22 per cent. were still in unreorganised schools. In 1938 that figure was 31 per cent., which means that we have not progressed very far with the reorganisation since 1938. There are still far too many children over 11 years of age being taught in the same schools as those under 11.

The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam stressed the importance of secondary education. As I have said, the first essential is that children over 11 ought to be in separate classes. But almost as important is the form which our secondary education should take. I know that there has been a great deal of controversy around this subject, and I do not think it has been mentioned much this afternoon. I know that the form of secondary education is left to the local authorities. They can please themselves whether to have modern technical or grammar schools, or whether to have new comprehensive secondary schools. I have always disliked very much indeed the idea of modern technical and grammar schools. I think it is wrong and undesirable to separate children of 10½ and 11 years into these three categories. Not only is it wrong and undesirable, but it is impossible to do it fairly.

I speak from some considerable experience, because for some years before I entered the House I was teaching in a large school which catered for children from 11 to 15. It was part of my job to try to classify the children of 11 who came to us. I found there was some 5 to 10 per cent. who were really intelligent children who could be put at the top, and 5 to 10 per cent., rather below the general intelligence, at the bottom. But in the middle there was 80 per cent. whom it was very difficult to classify fairly. It is wrong to classify children of 10½ into these three types of schools, because in many cases that classification at 10½ is final. I know that we are told there can be easy movement, but in many cases it is final. And the whole life of the child depends on the type of school which he attends.

It is rather a pity that in the last two or three years this subject of the form of secondary education has begun to be looked upon as a kind of political question. It is not a political question at all. It is an educational question, and one which I would look at from the point of view of the classroom. It is not true that equality of staffing, buildings and equipment will give equality in these schools. It does not make them equal in status, and I use that word even though the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) did not like it very much. The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam has already said that many parents today are saying, "We thought our children were going to get a secondary education, and we find that they are not." Already in the minds of parents there is the idea that the grammar school is secondary education and the modern school is still elementary education. I would not go so far as to urge the Ministry that all schools should be comprehensive schools, but what I would like to see them do is to encourage more experimentation. I know that they say that local authorities can experiment in this way, but I am not at all sure that local authorities are being encouraged to do so or that sufficient numbers of comprehensive schools are being built in order to ensure that that experimentation shall be on a large scale.

I congratulate the Ministry on what has been done, but we would like a little more still to be done. We feel that the Ministry is moving in the right direction, but we would like it to move a little further because we desire to see more and more educational reforms as the years go by.

7.55 p.m.

I should like to make an apology to the Minister, as I am unavoidably prevented from being present for some hours of this Debate, and I hope that neither he nor anybody else will consider me guilty of any lack of courtesy if I am unable to stay after having contributed to the Debate.

I hope that I shall have the agreement at any rate of the teachers present, of whom I know there are a number, if I say that whatever else has an influence on education—buildings, curriculum or the age to which education is pursued—more important than anything else is the quality of the teacher. There is nothing at all that can make up for the quality of the teacher if that quality is not adequate. Two points which I wish to make have already been made in this Debate, I think from both sides of the House. The first is that, however gifted the teacher, and however great his or her vocation for teaching, it is impossible for the teacher to do his or her job properly if the class is much too big. I do not suppose that that remark will cause any difference in any quarter of the House. There is nothing more urgent than to reduce, when possible, the size of excessively large classes. On this same subject I would also support what was said by my hon. Friend the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn). I beg the Minister carefully to consider—as I am quite certain he desires to maintain and improve the quality of teachers—whether even now he is proposing to give adequate financial recognition of university qualifications and degrees. Improvements in the emoluments of graduate teachers are needed quite as much in the interests of education as for the graduates for whom I make that claim.

I would add a few words to what was said by my hon. Friend and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) on the question of the examination for the General Certificate and the proposed rigid age limit. I believe that the Government are making a very serious educational mistake if they persist in their present plan. Some of the ideas which may have prompted them originally may be worthy and good ideas. I share the view which was expressed by the hon. Member for Walsall (Mr. W. Wells) that too early specialisation is undesirable. I entirely agree with that view, but I do not believe that this is the proper remedy. I believe that to keep children back artificially by rigid rules of this kind is educationally indefensible. I remember from my own childhood that many boys of 16 had no difficulty at all in passing the higher certificate, even with a certain number of distinctions as I think they were called, and that is a higher examination than the one which it is now proposed to prohibit children from taking until a later age. I hope the Minister will have regard to the weighty criticisms which have been advanced against this proposal.

Is not the hon. and learned Member rather begging the question when he says, quite rightly, that it is a bad thing to keep clever boys and girls back? Surely, whether they are kept back or not will depend on the content of the examination which will lead up to the certificate?

I do not want to be too long and the hon. Member for Walsall will be familiar with the very weighty criticisms which have been made by the headmaster of Rugby and many others. I believe that all the evils which he desires to avoid can be avoided without the Government adopting this very rigid principle. I would say that the best judges of when a boy should take the examination may be the teachers at a good school. This is better than to have some rigid rule imposed from outside. I do not wish to develop that further, except to make the most urgent plea I can that the very weighty criticisms that have been brought forward by headmasters and masters of grammar schools, and others, should be carefully considered before the Minister makes any irrevocable decision.

If I may pass to another matter, I would here perform a task which I hope will not embarrass the Minister, which is at once to say something in praise of his Department and in criticism of other Departments of the Government. I am very much concerned, as I am sure many hon. Members are in every quarter of the House—especially those who have experience of teaching—at what is happening to the English language. What I am going to praise is the conduct of His Majesty's inspectors. His Majesty's inspectors, I know, are well alive to the great importance of conciseness and accuracy in speech and writing. When the right hon. Gentleman the Minister receives reports about various schools which his inspectors inspect, I know that His Majesty's inspectors deal with this question well and competently. I am sure that the Minister and his civil servants would join with me and with all teachers in encouraging that attitude. After all, England has produced the greatest lyric poetry in the world and has a superb tradition of great writers in prose. It would be a very poor teacher who could not interest his or her class in the English language. I know from my conversation with many teachers, and also from having addressed boys and girls of different ages, how interested the pupils are in this subject and how well they can respond to teaching. As I say, the right hon. Gentleman and his inspectors have the best intentions in this matter; but what hope have they of success if other Government Departments and Ministers show complete contempt for the English language in considered statements read out to this House or written and spread abroad in the name of the Government?

Since I know how many hon. Members in all quarters of the House wish to speak, I shall content myself with two examples. I hope that the Minister will consider it strictly relevant to a Debate on education. This is what a Minister of the Crown said in a considered statement yesterday. The Minister of Pensions spoke about:

Perhaps the hon. and learned Member will allow me to reinforce his case with yet another example of strange English. I refer to a phrase which occurred in a speech by an hon. and learned Member describing the fact that civil servants were "well alive" to the necessity for good English. That was said by the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss).

I dare say. I do not know whether the hon. Member means that I said that. It is quite possible that I did. I say at once that there is no hon. Member of this House on either side who does not frequently make a slip in spoken English. Had this statement that I have been criticising occurred in some supplementary answer—I think that this is really too bad to appear in anything—it would have been a different matter. The real point about the phrase which I have criticised is that it was not in any supplementary answer but in the original answer carefully prepared by the Department.

The next will be my last example. This statement occurs in a document which I know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and others desire the public of this country to read and pay attention to. It is in the Economic Survey for 1948. I ask hon. Members to listen to the English of one paragraph.

On a point of Order. We all know the hon. and learned Gentleman's erudition in this matter and we are very pleased to hear him on other occasions, but this is an Education Debate and I really cannot see how his speech is relevant.

Is It in Order for the hon. Member, when he is giving a lesson on correct English, to end a sentence himself with a preposition?

Fortunately it is not the duty of the Chair to do any correction of speech.

In answer to the last point made by the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley), I would recommend him to study the master, Fowler, and others. That will convince him how utterly bad his point is. If he does not already know, I think the hon. Ladies sitting on each side of him, the hon. Member for Epping and the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mrs. Paton), will explain the point to him.

This is the last example I shall give. I insist that it is most relevant to an Education Debate if one of the most important subjects taught in the schools is English, to which, as I say, His Majesty's inspectors rightly pay great attention. I happen to know that they mention these matters in reports to the right hon. Gentleman. I am certain that it is his wish that they should do so. This appears in paragraph 223 of the Economic Survey for 1948:

If the hon. Member believes that, he will believe anything. To resume—

"in which all the phenomena normally associated with inflation have completely disappeared, nor one in which all physical controls could safely be removed."

Apart from this ridiculous language and its total obscurity, let me isolate three things which, I am certain, any schoolteacher, if such muck were put before him or her by any pupil, would deal with. First of all, the "overall total." That is sufficiently ridiculous. Then, the "overall picture." What on earth is an "overall picture"? Finally, there is this absurd sentence:

"An overall balance … is not necessarily or even probably a situation, etc."

How could a balance be a situation? I could give many more examples, but the matter really is serious. As long as we have this sort of thing put out by the Goverment or Government Departments, it is quite hopeless to think that children will pay much attention to their teachers when they try, quite rightly, to teach them to speak and write good English. I hope these points will be properly considered by the Government.

8.12 p.m.

The first part of the speech of the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss) I found very interesting and I agreed with it. I do not think I can accept what I regard as the irrelevancies of the latter part. In the first part of his speech he touched upon matters upon which I can speak, because, like my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Leeds (Miss Bacon), for 22 years I have taught children from the age of 7 to 15. Like my hon. Friend, I was a teacher until I came to this House. Therefore, there are quite a number of points with which I should like to deal, but which I shall not be able to touch upon owing to the lack of time.

I want to concentrate on one or two points, and the first is in regard to the junior school teachers. I have listened in this House to quite a large number of Debates on education and I must say that I have been rather impressed by the amount of time which this House has given to secondary school and technical school education, the teachers in those schools and the children in secondary schools. Somehow, I thought the Debates have been over-balanced in that direction, because I agree with the statement made, I think, by a Roman Catholic priest who said, "You can give me your child up to the age of 7, and anyone else can have him afterwards." I think that, if that applies in one situation, it applies in another, and it certainly applies in the sphere of education.

I have always been struck during my teaching career with the lack of thought and attention given to infant schools and their teachers and children. They have always been the Cinderellas of the profession. I know that young teachers, generally, are in the habit of complaining about conditions and I have listened to young secondary school teachers recently telling me that, because of the conditions in secondary schools, a large number of these young teachers want to get out of them and into a more cushy job, where the remuneration will be just as good but where the strain of the work is not so high. My answer has been, "I think you should have more courage, because the difficulties that face you in secondary schools today are nothing in comparison with the difficulties which we faced 25 years ago."

For seven years, in my own professional career I never had less than 60 on my register, and never had an attendance of less than 50 plus. While I felt that this was a great strain I felt that it was also a call for me to show what I could do in face of those difficulties. I think the secondary school teachers, particularly, should face these difficulties today, and show what they can do, because they have a great job to do and their conditions are incomparably better, financially, than anything they have enjoyed hitherto. They should tackle this problem, with all its difficulties, knowing that the country is awakening to education and to a consciousness of the value of education, and knowing that their future will be very much brighter than it has ever been.

When we come to infant school teachers, what do we find? Even the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) has placed a target for junior infants schools at the figure of 40 children in a class, whereas the target for secondary schools is only 30. I want to know why there is this inequality. Why should the junior school children be expected to have less air space, less sunshine and less of their teachers' time than the secondary school child should have? If there are any martyrs among all the teachers of this country, they are surely the teachers in the infant schools. I want to impress on the Minister that he must do his utmost to get these extra teachers for the infant schools—whether they are men or women I do not mind—so that, in the infant schools and in the junior classes of the junior schools, where children need individual attention from the teacher far more than do the children in secondary schools, they will be able to obtain it. I have no patience with complaints about secondary schools. What is in a child will come out of it, and there is more chance of it coming out in a secondary school than there is in a junior or infant school.

I want to give the House an experience which I had just before the war, when I came to London as an emergency teacher in a very poor district. I was asked to take a class of about 28 boys and girls who were 13 years of age. I was told that this class was a retarded class, and retarded it certainly was, because not one could read a standard III book, and some of them were in the "C.A.T.=cat" stage. I made inquiries and I found that at least four things had happened. They were taught in an infant class of between 40 and 50 children, they went right through the school of classes of that size, they came into the junior school under the same conditions, and the consequence was that all these children, throughout their school lives, had never had the opportunity of the individual attention which they needed because there was not a teacher who had found it possible to give it. If there had been time for these children to have had the individual attention from a teacher having plenty of time for the task in a reduced class, long before they were 13 years of age they would have been able to read and to have done all the things which a normal child of that age can do. A large proportion of the retardation which we find in modern schools is the direct result of the crowding of children in the infants and junior schools. If the Minister will take on this job of seeing that infants in junior schools get the justice which they should have got long ago, but did not get from the Opposition when they were in office, secondary school education in this country will be saved. Let us make the foundations secure, and build on those foundations so that every child can have a fair share of the teacher's time: then I am perfectly certain that the technical, grammar and secondary schools will be all right in the future.

My second point concerns handicapped children. I was delighted to hear the Parliamentary Secretary give his account of the extension of help to handicapped children, but I would like to get the Minister to break new ground in this respect. In all the lists of handicapped children that I have come across there is one kind of handicapped child which is left out. That is the child who is known as the spastic child. That child is handicapped not only physically but psychologically, and probably mentally as well because of his physical and psychological handicaps. A spastic condition develops from a child having been unfortunate enough to have had haemorrhage of the brain at birth. I feel strongly about such cases, because in the City of Birmingham alone there are 350 of these children, many of whom have been regarded by outsiders as mentally deficient but who really are bright children. Their intelligence would be normal if only they could have been dealt with early on and could have been taken into a school or institution suitable for that kind of child.

The institution which is suitable for this kind of child must deal with physical handicaps, must provide remedial exercises, should be able to provide mental training, medical treatment and psychological adjustment. Such a case arises from the fact that the poor child, unfortunately, was one in 10,000 at birth and nobody has taken any notice of him or her since. I believe that in the whole of this country there is not a single institution which deals effectively with that kind of child. I believe one was started recently in Middlesex, but I do not think it is sufficiently good. I went to New York and consulted a specialist who deals with this type of child in America. He himself has been a spastic from birth, and trained himself to be a doctor and later a specialist. He now deals only with spastic children. He has two clinics in America and they are really marvellous institutions. He makes a spastic child into a useful, sensible, normal citizen.

These children have been saved from that frustration and deprivation from which so many children in England have suffered, and from which their parents have suffered also, because they have not been given the education or the training which they should have had. Therefore, I want to impress upon the Minister the necessity to break new ground in a bigger way in respect of this type of child. I calculate from the Birmingham and district figures that there must be at least 8,000 of these children in England. Apart from a little voluntary help, these children have to grow up helpless, and their parents are helpless too. There is a chance here for a Labour Minister to break new ground, and I ask my right hon. Friend to do so in a big way. We should be prepared to spend money on these institutions to satisfy the needs of the spastic child.

My next point concerns the trainee, because a number of my constituents are concerned. They tell me that they feel not merely disappointment but a sense of complete frustration. They are suffering tremendous financial difficulties. They do not even get £5 a week, which figure was mentioned earlier by an hon. Member. They get only £18 or £19 a month. One of these constituents has a wife and two children. It is wrong to ask a wife with two children to try to live for months and perhaps a year on £4 or less a week, and out of that to pay National Health Insurance. Cannot some arrangement be made for the payment of their insurance, which amounts to 4s. or 5s. a week?

These people feel that the Minister should have regard to their financial position. They do not feel that the raising of the uncertificated rate from £238 to £300 a year meets their situation, because they say that it will take five years to reach the maximum rate. Merely by raising the uncertificated rate to £300 a year will not help them. I ask my right hon. Friend to look into their position and see whether he can meet them, because their sense of frustration makes them bad teachers. These men are teaching classes just as other people are. Some of the men feel that as soon as they begin emergency training they should have the allowances which they are given when they attend the training colleges. I urge my right hon. Friend to do something for these men financially.

I want to offer my sincere congratulations to the Minister on the report which we have had today on the work of the Ministry of Education. I feel that this country realises that a revolution is going on in the educational world. The Ministry deserve praise, because as a result of the way things have been done since this Government came into power, the whole country has been made more conscious than ever of the value of education, and there is a greater determination to ensure that never again shall we have children who will not have the chance to develop their mental and spiritual faculties to the highest possible level. I congratulate the Minister, and I hope he will go on with his good work.

8.27 p.m.

I know it is rash for one who is not a specialist to take part in this kind of Debate. I am no specialist, but I listen with great interest when specialists speak. I fully agree with the hon. Lady the Member for Rushcliffe (Mrs. Paton) who said that the key to the reformation and the increased efficiency of teaching is to make the classes small enough so that a teacher can really mould the character of the young children. That would have been far more effective than the raising of the school-leaving age. It is a great pity that this Government raised the school-leaving age when the reform to which the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) gave priority could have been made. I agree with the hon. Lady that once primary education is made secure, secondary education becomes quite secure.

I do not propose to deal with the machinery of education this evening and, though it would be a very interesting subject to be drawn into, I do not intend to follow the speech of the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss) on the English language. Actually, I do not think he was on very strong ground. Macaulay said of Dr. Johnson that his prose was very indifferent, and there have been many writers who have said that Macaulay wrote nothing but sheer rhetoric. A worse instance than that occurred in the translation of the Bible. Tyndale got into trouble for his translation of the standard English version into the ordinary language of the people. One can go on multiplying instances; for example, there was Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress" which was full of mis-spellings. However, I am not going to be led away—

That is true. I have been led away. However, I will not be led away further on that point. The niceties of language are a very dangerous field. The living language must make blunders just the same as the living being. What I am afraid of in education today is that it will become too stereotyped and the professional expert will get too much in control. That is my justification for taking part in the Debate, and I make no apology for doing so.

In an interesting speech, the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) gave the modern doctrine—he did not subscribe to it; he cited it—which the modern psychologist is putting forward. It is interesting to observe that the modern psychologists, in the main, are doctors. They are nearly all doctors. Of the leading psychologists of the modern period, every one is a doctor. I have nothing to say about them in their field as doctors, for I am not competent to say anything about that, but when they convert their knowledge of medicine into a philosophy of life and impose it on the educational system of the country, I venture to say that I am as competent as anyone to criticise. Everyone is entitled to be heard on that issue.

The hon. Lady the Member for North-East Leeds (Miss Bacon) made a very strong and timely objection to the permanent classification of children at the age of 10½—dividing them into three channels by which their life is permanently affected thereafter. That is a great mistake. What is the warranty for it? Is there any greater warranty for that conclusion being final than that put forward by an hon. Member—not as his own—that the mental efficiency of this generation has greatly diminished? That is the doctrine of decadence, which is a very old doctrine.

I would like to ask how this is assessed. How do the psychologists find out, because they themselves belong to the age which is decadent. Of course, they safeguard themselves by saying that the signs have only appeared in the last ten years—after they have found it out. That is not a very sound warranty for the basis of this plan. It is important, because the result, when it goes, too far, is that the experts seek to impose a standard view upon the schools and upon the thought of the times, and that is one of the problems of modern European education. The relationship of the State to the school is a very important thing in the freedom of Europe.

I am reminded that Xenophon, observing the States of his own period, said that all States allow parents to teach their children according to their personal views and the old to live as they like; and—then comes the caustic observation—then they make the laws. If Xenophon came to modern Europe and spoke of this period instead of his own time, he would not make that complaint. He would not make it over Spain, Germany, Italy before the war, Russia. He would make it of hardly any country in Europe, because these countries take very great care to condition the mind of the child. As the hon. Lady the Member for Rushcliffe said, "Give me the child at seven years of age." That has become the important thing. The counterpart of Xenophon in the 20th century, Bertrand Russell, made a very profound observation and a very true one about the danger of modern education.

He may be erratic, but even if a person is erratic he is sometimes right. A person who is afraid to be erratic, does not do very much at all. Bertrand Russell said that the danger of modern education is that modern schools are in peril of becoming an obstacle to thinking and to the freedom of thought. The danger of the modern Government, the danger of the modern State, is that every Government runs the risk that it wants to condition and pattern the children to be useful citizens. But who determines what is a useful citizen? Is it in the Communist countries or the Fascist countries that that should be determined? They take their schools and mould their schools accordingly.

I think the difference about democracy is that the object of education is to search for the truth wherever it leads.

In a Communist country they are educated to be good citizens and in most of the schools of the so-called democracies they get their heads filled with preparation not for this world but for the next world.

If the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) will allow me, there is sense in that phrase "the next world"—a phrase I am not using in a theological sense at all. Unless education does provide for that in any man's character, it provides for nothing but the slave.

The doctrine the hon. Member is putting forward is precisely the same as the old doctrine of Plato's Republic. It is the doctrine that there is a body of wise men who know how the citizen should be patterned. Democratic education lives in the same way as the English language has lived, because it is spoken by all, and expresses their views from the angle from which they see life. There is a point at which every man, however humble, has greater knowledge than the most distinguished scholar. It is the object of education and of the Ministry of Education to allow the free chance of development. The key position in education is that of the teacher in the schools and he should be allowed to be as free as possible. He should be fit for his task, but then should be allowed freedom and should have as his objective the pursuit of truth wherever it goes, and not the establishment of a given order.

8.38 p.m.

I am not going to follow the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin Morris) in the philosophic discourse we have heard except to say that fundamentally it is untrue to say that within the British system of education there is no freedom of experiment. There is plenty of freedom of experiment both in methods and in objects. It is a wrong conception entirely of our British educational system to think that it is cast-iron, that it is dictatorial.

I would go further and assert that, if it could be statistically presented, the State system in Britain all down the years has provided the main sources of innovation in the primary schools and the infant schools, in particular, and indeed in the State Secondary schools. The laggards in meeting the development of the modern system of society have not been in the State system. The laggards have been in the great public schools—I may be putting it rather crudely—who stuck fast to Latin and Greek when modern society demanded mathematics, chemistry and physics. It is a remarkable thing that any student of the history of British education is bound to be struck by what I would call the resilience of the State educational system in Britain in meeting the needs of the individual child, the individual scholar, and the changing needs of society and the nation as a whole.

Quite frankly, we have no need to fear, following our experience, State intervention in the field of education. Indeed, what we want now is more State education. The other day my hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mrs. Paton) mentioned the growth of private schools. That is a natural reaction after the 1944 Act. Since that Act children who want to go to State secondary and primary schools have had to pass a competitive examination. It has been found by middle-class people that when their children could not pass into the secondary grammar school by competitive examination they have had to find education for them in private schools. The real answer to the menacing growth—and I believe it is menacing to the nation—of the cancer of private schools is an extension of real secondary education for all.

It is a virtue of the artisan type—the lower middle class, and even the middle middle class—that they want their children to be at school until they are 16, 17 or 18 years of age. I do not blame them for saying, "If my child cannot pass a competitive examination because of the restricted provision we shall send him to an independent private school." The answer to the demand from the middle classes is not the erection of private schools; it is the greater extension of State secondary schools. I hope the Minister will pardon me for returning to my pet theme. I suppose I must not introduce party politics or party political outlook into this Debate, but the answer to all this can be found more speedily than has yet been recognised in the policy of the Labour Party. At conference after conference of the Labour Party it has been stated that the answer is to be found in more multilateral or comprehensive schools, but the Minister is not implementing that policy. I would like to know from my right hon. Friend what the attitude of the Ministry of Education is towards the multilateral or comprehensive school. Are they mischievously undermining it by demanding a size that need not be? Are they creating a conception of the bigness of the multilateral school in order to kill it? My right hon. Friend may as well know it—that suspicion is widespread among the ranks of teachers and educationists who look at our educational system from the Labour point of view.

To date, the Ministry have not taken the initiative; indeed, they have done the opposite in this matter. The argument is, "We want more experiment; we have not enough experience of the multilateral school." But Eton, Harrow and Rugby are all educationally multilateral schools. Socially, they are not multilateral schools. A multilateral school, looked at from the social point of view, is an institution to which all classes of society can go and intermingle freely. I would like to read to the Minister a quotation from "Modern Education."—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—Yes, I am the editor of it, but these are not my words. They are about a fine book which, in "Modern Education," I told the Minister to read. I was interested in the review by the headmaster of Harrow, Mr. R. W. Moore, of this book about Eton. I hope my Labour friends will get a grip on this because here is a picture of a real multilateral school. The tragedy is that it has been confined to the socially upper classes, socially remote, socially privileged and distinctive but, on the educational side, fundamentally sound. With Eton, Harrow and all that crowd of schools—I am not saying this offensively—I have no quarrel educationally, although, socially, I am at variance with them. Here is what Mr. Moore said in his "Sunday Times" review of the book:

Yes, but my point is that this picture of a long-established multilateral school shows there is no need for experiment. What is needed—and I hope the Minister will pardon me saying it, but I want to say it directly to him—is faith by the Minister himself, enjoining his Department to establish what has been long established as Labour Party policy. On that I hope the Minister will alter the whole outlook of the Ministry.

I want to say a word about emergency training. It is not often that I agree with the Secretary of the Association of Education Committees, but speaking at the conference of the A.E.C. last year he warned the Government that there would be an over-supply of men teachers and a shortage of women teachers. I see in the issue of his journal of 8th April that he was able to say to the Government, "I told you so." The first comment I have to make on this is that if the secretary of the A.E.C. as far back as July, 1947, could tell us what was going to happen, why has the Ministry now bungled into this position? I cannot understand why this has happened. It is still going on. I have not got them here, but the House must have seen the advertisements that are being issued. Not only are they misleading pictorially but factually as well.

I have looked at a number of them, and I have seen the Ministry inviting these people into a job with security and good prospects. That is not true, according to the Ministry's own circular. Why not tell these people straight out that a large number of the men teachers who are being trained in the emergency colleges are facing unemployment? That is the truth. Can the Minister deny it? In his own circular, in words that are covered with jam but the true meaning of which anyone can gather by looking at the background, he said: "If you are trained now, I as the Minister can only say that after your training you are liable to face unemployment." Frankly, I would much rather that the Minister spoke straight out. I have been all in favour of emergency training colleges to meet an emergency situation, but there has always been danger lurking in the background. A lot of ballyhoo is being talked about the emergency trainees, their calibre and so on. The Minister ought to speak straight out to these men and tell them the truth. There is this danger—I do not put it any higher than that—and they should be warned against it.

There is one other point on which I wish to address some questions to the Minister. The Parliamentary Secretary was very vague on it. The Government have given to these people a feeling of cer- titude and security, but since the Government undertook this scheme two things have happened.

First, there has been the prolonged delay in getting the trainees trained. The men who covenanted to go into our emergency training colleges could have got jobs elsewhere a year or two ago, but it is different now. I know that from the personal experience of friends and relatives who have been through the universities. It was easier to get jobs two years ago. These men covenanted to be trained, and there is a moral obligation on the Government to see that they are decently and properly treated. If they have no guarantee of jobs, what did the Parliamentary Secretary mean when he talked vaguely, as I thought, about financial aid? Are the Government going to find money for these men while they are awaiting training—waiting till 1949 or 1950? Are the Government going to find them their keep, as well? There is a moral obligation on the Government. It is a very wretched thing for me, at any rate, to think that the State, and particularly a State in which there is a Labour Government in power, should be inviting hundreds of these men to come along and say "The pledge has been broken, and we are left drifting." That sort of thing percolates right through the whole of the community.

I hope the Minister will tell us what financial arrangements are to be made, and further, what pressure he is going to exercise on local authorities to compel the employment of these teachers. I know—because I have had enough experience of it—that the responsibility for the employment of teachers rests upon the local authorities, but here the State has taken upon itself an obligation; and I say to the right hon. Gentleman—I am not going into details—that there is room for more and more men teachers and more and more women teachers, and it rests upon him, with the power which he has, to see that they get employment and that the moral obligation to them is fufilled.

I am sorry that I have had to be some-what critical and somewhat concentrated, as it were, in what I have said. My final word is this: I do not believe in all this humbug of mental testers trying to say in some nebulous manner that the intelligence of our people is getting lower and lower, although it is true that there is some amount of dissatisfaction and criticism inside the ranks of the teachers themselves as to the products coming out of the primary schools, and there is need, I believe, for some inquiry. Have we in our infant and primary schools gone too far along the play-way system? I do not know. Have we departed too far, as it were, from the old trail of the three Rs; have we taken that play-way too far? There is a line of investigation, and I hope that there will be some co-operation between the Minister, the local authorities and the teachers in order to find out what is the matter, if there is anything the matter and how we should set about remedying it.

I have no fear myself about the standard of our schools, so long as the right hon. Gentleman is there with his idealism, but I want him to put his foot down and make his idealism a practical reality, because, believe me—and I think it is the consensus of opinion of the party to which I belong—there is no service more appreciated in the ranks of the Labour movement than the great service of education, and he has all the support that he wants for extended progress and quick progress

9.0 p.m.

I hope the impression will not get abroad, certainly among would-be teachers, that there is any serious danger of unemployment for people who enter the profession. It would be very unfortunate if that impression got abroad, and I do not believe there is any justification for making that statement. Member after Member has pointed out today the need for more teachers. We want more women teachers for nursery schools because of the rising birthrate, and we must also have more men teachers, if only to deal with the great problem of large classes. The senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn), among other questions, asked how many teachers we can afford, and no doubt the Minister will deal with that matter when he comes to reply, but I suggest that we are a long way from the time when we can ask that question. Were we not told by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) that a great deal of the money we are spending today on education is not giving us the return it should because of the pressure on teachers, and that if we try to teach classes in primary schools of 40 and over—I would say 30 and over—we are not getting anything like value for our money? Therefore, I do not think there ought to be any fear about the future.

In regard to this controversy which has arisen today over the postponement of entry into the training colleges, it is vitally important that the Minister should take every possible step to see that these men are not lost to the profession, because there is no doubt that the time will come—I believe it is here now—when they will be badly needed. I hope we are not going to make the mistake of losing them. The Minister will not complain very seriously about the criticisms which have been made about his administration. When he contemplates the task he undertook, the legacy that was given him, and that he was bold enough, in spite of the difficulties at the time, to go in for the raising of the school-leaving age, he can say that things might have been very much worse.

I do not think we can seriously criticise the Minister for not having done very much better, but I think he is making a mistake in coming to a decision with regard to the school-leaving certificate. This is a matter which has serious implications. We have heard a great deal today about the freedom of the teacher, and we pride ourselves that we have given the teachers great freedom. I believe that the result of their work has shown that they have fully justified that freedom. We all want them to retain their freedom, but the Minister is now taking away from them a very important freedom, the freedom of the teacher to decide when a pupil is fit to take an examination. There is only one appropriate time for a pupil to take an examination, and that is when he is ready for it. I submit that it is for the teacher to decide that question. We were told that this has been done because of the danger of early specialisation. I think that that danger is very greatly exaggerated and that the remedy is far worse than the disease.

The dangers we are creating, with their many implications, by interfering in this matter are far more serious than the dangers from which we think we shall escape. There is nothing worse for a child at school than to be marking time and its effect may last very long after the child has left school. That happens when a child who is mentally ready to take an examination is told that he cannot do so. That is what I would call a restrictive practice. I dislike restrictive practices, either in education or anywhere else. The time when there was any justification for them elsewhere has gone for good—at least I hope so; it certainly will have gone if the Government live up to their promises of full employment. In the schools there is certainly no place for a restrictive practice of that kind. We want to encourage children, while they are at school, to make the most of their opportunities and to work hard and we want to give them an incentive to do so. But this is an act which will repress their intentions.

If the Minister takes upon himself the power to decide when a child should take an examination, is he not entering upon a dangerous road? Is it not the next step for him to say, "Well, then, the Ministry must have control also of the curriculum of the school," and the next step after that to say, "I must control the text books of the school"? We have seen this thing happen in other countries and we know what are the results. There is a serious danger that this is likely to follow if the Minister takes this particular path.

I ask the Minister, therefore, to think again about this matter. If I may be personal, I would say that I wish he would bring to this particular problem the common sense of which, to me, he seems almost the embodiment. I am hoping that he will think again before finally committing himself. I would ask him whether he would not have further consultations with representatives of universities and schools to see whether the object he has in mind, and which we still have to learn—I hope that in his reply we shall learn exactly what he is hoping to achieve in this way—will be achieved without doing it in this particular manner.

I am very glad that the Parliamentary Secretary, in his very comprehensive review, was able to include a reference to U.N.E.S.C.O. We hear a great deal in this country of the political failures of the United Nations and I think it is very valuable to devote much more attention to the success of many of the agencies of the United Nations organisation. Today, of course, we are concerned with U.N.E.S.C.O. in particular. The Government are to be congratulated on the support they have given by, if I may say so, the valuable and important personnel they have contributed to the conferences which have been held and for the other steps which they have taken.

Reference is made in the report—and mention was made today—to the co-operating bodies which have been set up, and to nine of them in particular. I have had the honour so far of being a member of the co-operating body on education. As one who has been on a great many bodies of all kinds I want to say that this is a very real and live body and is doing very useful work. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden said that he would like to know of some of the positive achievements. One thing for which the co-operating body has been responsible has been to set up a proper organisation by which the children who want to come to this country from the Continent can be properly looked after until they can go elsewhere. We all remember a year ago, when there was a great deal of trouble over this, it was done by a private agency. U.N.E.S.C.O. is tackling some big problems, including the whole of the reconstruction of education in Europe, which has suffered sadly. The questions of mass education and the tremendous amount of illiteracy, which today is a great world menace politically, are being tackled; but we have to do very much more to get U.N.E.S.C.O. across to the people.

I am glad to be able to pay tribute to the contribution this country is making through the Minister of Education and his colleagues to make sure that Britain will play her part through U.N.E.S.C.O. and so make a valuable contribution to the peace of the world. My last word to the Minister is this. I will not say the Parliamentary Secretary was complacent; I do not think he was. I think on the whole he had quite a good record to put before the House. But the Minister is the last person in the world to suggest that we are, and would be most disappointed if we were, quite satisfied with the progress being made. No one is more anxious than he that we should get on with educational development in this country and all parties have confidence that he and his Parliamentary Secretary are the men who will do the job.

9.11 p.m.

In attempting to wind up this Debate on behalf of the Opposition I suggest that it has been a Debate of criticism, understanding criticism, because everyone in this House realises the difficulties imposed from outside on the whole system with which the Minister of Education has to deal. On the whole, we have been discussing how we can put into action what my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) would call his Magna Charter—[An HON. MEMBER: "Magna Charta."] I prefer to call it Charter because he has rather a good habit of writing charters. We have been trying to see, three years after the war has ended, how we are getting on and what progress we are making in this great work. I am going to be as critical as I can, with some diffidence because I know only too well my own ignorance of this subject, just as I know how desperately anxious I am that we should improve our educational system and its administration.

I was sorry that the Minister did not open the Debate himself. The speech which the Parliamentary Secretary made was remarkable for the number of things about which he told us nothing at all. I watched the faces of hon. Members on the other side of the House. It was just as well that the Parliamentary Secretary did not have eyes in his back. In all the criticisms which have been made by hon. Members opposite, they have said something nice, then the punch came, and then again something nice at the end. I disagree with the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson) when he said he did not think the Minister complacent. I am frightened of what I believe is complacency on the part of the Parliamentary Secretary and what I thought I detected as complacency in the Minister's speech last year. We have nearly reached the middle of the twentieth century. In two years' time we shall be in the middle of it, but I do not think we have reason to be proud of the educational system and its operation in this country. I am not digging back into the past—anyone can do that—but I am interested in where we are at present and where we are going in the future.

The Parliamentary Secretary dealt with the question of trainees and almost every hon. Member who has taken part in the Debate has dealt critically with that subject. I think the Minister must tell us more of what has happened. He has no excuse for not having at least warned the trainees earlier. The hon. Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. G. Thomas), when he was speaking in the Debate last year, brought out this very point. He asked a question concerning the balance of women teachers to men teachers and suggested certain consequences. In his reply the Minister said:

Let me quote for a moment from a letter I had only two days ago regarding a case of this nature. I have had two letters from the same man, and in the first he says:

Yes, but this is not. The letter goes on: That is the spirit of this man. It is something which should not be denied. I hope the Minister will feel himself in a position to give a far wider assurance than he has given before that he will help these men in the difficult cases which are coming to all of us every day.

I was astonished that the Parliamentary Secretary only devoted about two minutes to the two greatest problems in education today—the building problem and the size of classes, which are interrelated. In order to knock this complacency out of us, if there is any present, I wish to give the House an example of the sort of thing which is happening in the country today. It concerns one of the things which the Parliamentary Secretary did not mention and about which I hope the Minister will speak when he replies. I refer to the vital question of rural education. We never have a Minister who talks about rural education; I wish we had. It is one of the most difficult things with which we have to contend.

I wish to give a brief example of what is happening in these circumstances. It is a case in which the Minister has refused permission to build a secondary modern school. The school in situ is a county school which is in desperate straits. Its children are increasing in number owing to the increase in the birth rate and the necessity for reorganisation. It has had to use various buildings in order to house the children. I will give a quotation from a letter which was forwarded to me by the Director of Education of my county which refers to one of these buildings and which I have no hesitation in quoting in this House: the impression that he is doing rather well. I sometimes have the impression—

The county of Lincolnshire. I sometimes have the impression that the right hon. Gentleman—

I am loth to interrupt, but the hon. and gallant Member has suggested that a refusal to make the provision had been received by the authority.

The right hon. Gentleman has the correspondence at his Ministry. It is conceivable that he may have given permission yesterday, but we have not heard. Anyhow, he has the correspondence.

I do not want it to be assumed that I am only sufficiently interested to be able to answer questions. I think it is a scandal that it has been like that for so long. If I have been a party to extending it I should want to apologise to the House—and have something to say to somebody else.

It matters not to me who gets into trouble. I want to get this put right.

Then again in the same county, in Skegness, the shortage of accommodation is so acute and the difficulty of the size of classes is so great that they are having to refuse to take children at the age of five. Is that anything to be proud of—at the halfway turn of the twentieth century? It is a terrible thing and we should approach it with very great humility.

The question of the school certificate was not mentioned by the Parliamentary Secretary. It is a thing which was mentioned by almost every hon. Member who spoke from this side of the House. It is a matter which has gone through the Press like a flame of fire. It is a matter in which almost all the headmasters of secondary schools in England are extremely interested. In my constituency I have a friend who happens to be the headmaster of a grammar school. He also happens to be a Socialist candidate for Parliament. He asked me, if I spoke in this Debate, to bring to the mind of the right hon. Gentleman this question of the compulsory taking of the examination at the age of 16. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give a really full explanation of just why he has done that and what are the arguments which have led him to take the decision which he has taken.

One other point on what I might call this pseudo-complacency. The Parliamentary Secretary after telling us about the question of school meals, indicated that this was "positive evidence that plenty is happening on the school meal front." There are local authorities who have really got ahead with this, who are 100 per cent. and giving five meals a week, but who are suffering badly over the question of equipment. I know of one local authority which last March was giving five meals a week to each of 14,500 children. Now it has come down to 10,000 children. That is not progress. The reason for it is lack of equipment and the way it is distributed. That same authority sees laggard authorities who have only just got going, being able to get their full quota of equipment, and give five meals a week to their children. It is not very encouraging to that particular authority and it is very disappointing for one who gets ahead, to find himself in that position.

I do not want to take long because I think that the Minister has a lot to answer. There are just one or two small matters which I should like to mention. The hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) has entered the Chamber at exactly the right moment, as he so often does. He asked about public schools, and I found myself in almost entire agreement with him. However, I should like to know what is happening to the scheme whereby certain local authorities have been able to take up vacancies in public schools. Is it a success? Is it being used to the full? Can it be extended? The hon. Member for Aberavon believes, I think quite rightly, that it is the best form of education today. It is most astonishing, but I find when I talk to people in all walks of life, who have children, that there never has been a time when private, or public school, education has been more at a premium than it is today. Never has it been more worth while to spend money on it. It is astonishing that should be so in the middle of the twentieth century. It is bad that that should be so. I want to see public education progress to such an extent that it swallows up everything else, not because it is being pushed by the Government or by any one political party, but because it is the best form of education. That is the only reason why it has any right to succeed.

Finally, I should like to say a few words about the advisory council to the Minister of Education. What is that council doing? Last year I devoted a certain amount of time to the criticism of a pamphlet called "School and Life. I do not think that the council really has got down to work. I felt extremely critical about that pamphlet. I remember asking whether the council might not be told to go back and do the work again. They had produced certain problems which they admitted were too difficult for them. That is not the right way for an advisory council to work. The Minister ought to find somebody else if that is the sort of advice he gets. What have they done now? They have produced another little pamphlet called, "Out of School." My right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden—I think that he had the whole House with him at the time—said how important it was that we should try to reduce the bureaucratic control, the number of Committees and the various trappings of bureaucracy, which so often make it more difficult and not easier to get children properly educated. These things all cost money, yet here are these most eminent people, proposing a scheme which sets up more Committees and an instructional organisation for parents, and which needs paid people to deal with the children out of school.

Surely, the parents have some rights in these matters. I quite agree that some parents may not be much good, but they ought to be given their responsibilities. They must be made to know their responsibilities, because certainly they will never take them if they are spoon fed all the time. I think that the advisory council should be set a task to consider that is worthy of the people who compose that council. They should be enabled to give advice which would be of real use to the Minister. What we really want to know is whether we are giving the children the right sort of education. Are we turning out the right sort of children? Are we doing our duty by the world state of which we are a part? Are we giving the instruction, are we imparting the knowledge which turns to wisdom, because it is wisdom we want to try to create? Have we got the answer to this difficult problem of separating the humanities and the modern side? Are we neglecting the classical and religious teaching which had such a tremendous effect on the character and moral bearing of our forefathers? Why not ask the advisory council to advise on these questions so that we can look forward to the future with more confidence than we have at the moment?

It is absolutely vital today that our children should be taught wisdom, and, although I started by telling the Minister not to be complacent, although the whole of my speech might be entitled "No Orchids for Miss Blandish," we, on this side of the House, are prepared to help him in every way we can, because we have at least some confidence in the Minister's power to improve and to make a greater success of this job.

9.31 p.m.

During the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland), I found myself wondering where he had discovered the complacency in my Department and came to the conclusion, before the end, that he had manufactured it in order that he might have a tilt at a windmill because of the fact that the Debate has been so complacent during the day. I was rather surprised at the variety of advice he gave me. First, the hon. and gallant Gentleman said that the whole House was with his right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) in wanting to get away from bureaucracy. I wondered whether he knew that the Advisory Council was the child of his right hon. Friend, and that I inherited it. The hon. and gallant Gentleman desires me to tell the Council what he wants them to do before they start on their next job. That seems to me to be the sum and substance of what he wants me to do.

With regard to the Debate as a whole, I feel that it is perhaps the most interesting and most critical Debate on education that we have had since I became Minister, and it has taken my mind back to the Debates which took place when the Education Act was going through the House. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that we were fortunate in that we solved the problem of religious education at a time when the country was ripe for it and mainly because of the fact that it was obsessed with other things which were regarded as more important; but I believe, that he was right when he suggested that, had we not agreed then, it would have led to greater difficulties now.

As far as the Ministry are concerned, we have attempted to carry out the compromise on religious grounds which was laid down. Whether one agreed with it personally or not, I think one was bound to recognise it and implement it, and I, as Minister, have been called upon to do something which I did not like doing, and that is to give directions in certain instances, because of the fact that it seemed to me that the compromise was not being honoured. I believe that it ought to be and that we are pledged to it. At the same time, I would like to say that not only is it the Ministry's duty to honour the agreement that was arrived at and entered into, but I believe it is equally the duty of those other bodies, who solemnly pledged themselves at the same time as did the Ministry, to carry out their share of the bargain. To be honest, I think that in the main they have done so. Up till now, at any rate, the compromise that was arrived at and the understanding that has resulted from it has worked very well.

The right hon. Gentleman also gave voice to a remark which is sound and with which I think we all agree, namely that when we are in a position to do a given amount of work, we should see that it is done well. Without wishing to appear complacent, I think I may say that in the limited field in which we have chosen to operate in the difficult circumstances, we have done our work very well. I should like to go back for a moment to a statement in the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle to the effect that, although we have reached the middle of the 20th century, there is nothing to be proud of in our educational system. At the risk of being thought complacent, I say that we have a great deal to be proud of in the educational system of this country. Our's is the only country in the world which recognises that it has a duty to teach children from the age of five. There is not another country in the world which has a minimum compulsory teaching age of five. That is a beginning, at any rate, and it shows that we recognise the value of commencing to teach the child in its younger years. I subscribe to the belief that it is important that the beginning should be sound.

Another question which was asked, and which has been repeated on one or two occasions, was whether our educational standards are in danger. This is not an easy question to answer. There is a good deal in what was said by the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove), that we are too close to the new methods, particularly in the infant and junior schools, to assess whether or not the balance has moved further in one direction than in the other, and whether there has been too much emphasis on what the hon. Member described as the "play-way" opposed to the old theory of making sure that children can do one or two things very well, such as reading and spelling. I do not think anybody can answer that question.

What I would say is that the children of today are never as good as the children of yesterday, and they never will be. In my younger days I could never understand why that should be. Now that I am a grandfather, I am beginning to appreciate that there is something in it. I find myself imagining that in some respects I am better than my grandson is. He is only five yet, so he has a chance to improve. We all tend to look at things through our own spectacles, and we may even imagine that we were as good as we thought we were, because we put such a value on our accomplishments in days gone by when nobody can check up upon them. Therefore, it is anybody's guess. Perhaps this would answer one of the questions which was put by the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) as to whether or not there is a decline in the general ability of people. I should imagine that is a difficult question to answer. I should imagine also that never was there a time when the people of one generation did not believe they were better than the people of the previous generation. I do not know, I cannot say; but I should imagine that there was always a feeling that we were better than the people who preceded us.

If the right hon. Member will permit me, that was not the question I put. The question I put was whether there had been consideration of the advisability of a formal inquiry into the reliability or unreliability of the expert opinion which has frequently been given lately that there has been some decline of intelligence. I expressed no view myself about it, and that was not the main question I put. The question I put was whether he had considered whether this matter ought to be investigated.

It has not been investigated to my knowledge. I will certainly consider the matter in the way the hon. Member suggests.

I want to refer to the question of staffing problems in the secondary schools and to link this with the idea that in some way the recommendations of the Burnham Committee have not met the arguments being put in certain quarters and that we are not getting the right type of graduate in certain of our secondary schools because the schools could not compete with the salaries which are paid in industry. I do not know, but I have a feeling that when we get over the slump which took place in the number of graduates because of the war years this matter will right itself. I should hesitate a long time before I, as Minister of Education, interfered with the working of the Burnham Committee which has saved previous Ministers of Education and Presidents of the Board so much trouble in this field. The people who are dealing with this problem are fully conscious of the need of the grammar schools to meet their requirements over a long period and it was their recommendation, which I endorsed, that improved the situation, whether or not they have gone as far as they should.

I will say a few words about the question of examinations. Some people say that our new policy is based on a compromise which pleases nobody. I want to emphasise that the recommendation, made by a thoroughly representative body of people selected by the associations they represent, was unanimous, after they had studied the whole problem in all its bearings. If it pleased nobody else, at least it pleased me, and I regard the new system as a definitely promising advance in educational policy and practice.

I do riot want for a moment to belittle the past achievements of the present system, which we all know so well. Indeed, it did much in its early days to stimulate progress in the schools and to save them from a multiplicity of other external examinations, but I believe it has served its turn. Its very success was in danger of proving its undoing. The school certificate in effect was becoming too popular; when more and more children entered for it, younger and younger, it was inevitable that standards should gradually go down in a well-meant endeavour to avoid frustration. Everyone who passes it realises that its value decreases the more popular it becomes and the more numerous the successes. The ablest children are relatively penalised, and the less able of the successful children find that they have achieved a spurious token of little intrinsic merit.

Somehow we have to avoid this pitfall, and devise a system to provide a worthwhile certificate of real achievement. I am not so sure that the hon. Member for Cambridge University did not answer the criticism of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler) about the minimum age. He suggested what I believe can become a reality. By overcoming this hurdle, so to speak, at an early age, and then dropping the subjects which are no longer required to qualify for a university we tend to create two worlds in which, on the one side, the humanities have been left out and, on the other, the sciences have been left out, so that we are left with two grown people, both of whom have been educated, but who do not speak the same language.

Whether this examination will meet that problem completely I do not know, but I think it will go some way towards doing so. It achieves the purpose we have in mind in not allowing this hurdle to be overcome at an early age in order that some of the subjects in the curriculum may be forgotten. I suggest that the minimum age of 16 is not too high. It seemed to me, long before the Examinations Council considered this matter, that 16 was too young. But what is it that we want an examination to reveal? Is it the time at which the child is capable of passing in one subject, and then dropping it? It is no good passing a subject and then dropping it, except perhaps as an exercise in mental discipline. I agree that there is some virtue in being compelled to study a subject because of the mental discipline it provides, but all my life, so far, the purpose of the matriculation examination has been to see whether young people were ready and able to go forward to a university or to some training of that kind.

In a comparatively few cases the examination has been used for that purpose, but in other cases it has been used for all sorts of things—for instance, for entrance into the town hall to become a rate collector. In difficult times and periods of unemployment it became a mark as to whether the person who passed that examination could get any kind of job other than that which had to be carried out on the ground floor. I contend that the purpose of examination is to determine at any given time what the individual is prepared for. If he is to go to a university he will require certain qualifications. We believe that these will be found in the General Certificate. If the child is to go into a profession we believe that the professions can find, in the single subjects which make up the General Certificate, the means whereby they can pick out the right person.

This is no substitute for the School Certificate; it is a new type of examination, based on separate subjects, and I maintain that the person who is good in only one subject is entitled to take away with him, if he passes, credit for being able to do one thing well. The General Certificate is no use as a certificate; it is only of use for what is on the certificate. That is the answer to the question put by the hon. Member for Cambridge University, as to what is to take the place of the school certificate examination. The place that has been occupied by the school certificate examination will be taken by the general certificate examination.

Might I say a word with regard to the minimum age? Nobody, whether he has been at school and left, if he has continued his education and qualified to sit for the examination, or whether he has remained at school and is qualified, will be debarred. Whether those in the former class will have the same chance of passing it is an open question, but the fact remains that they will be able to sit for it. It has been said that I was ruining sixth form work by delaying the beginning of advanced work and that I am denying to the teachers that freedom which I claim to be giving to them. I want to deny that. What matters is the ability of the individual coming forward to a job or going to a university.

I should like to use an illustration which may not at the present time be very apt. The selectors of the Test team do not pick the players for the Test match on their averages of a couple of years ago—it may be that it would have been a good job if they had. They look at what the players did last week. In a like manner it is not what the individual knew at 14 years of age that matters, but what he or she knew at 16 plus or 17, when going on to further study or into a profession. When it is suggested that I hastily took the decision with regard to these matters, I reply that I did nothing of the kind. I saw every one of the organisations who were anxious to speak to me about it before I came to the decision. It does not follow that, because I did not adopt the ideas put before me, I did not listen to them. In a conference one never knows whether one is convincing those who are on the other side of the table or vice versa.

All I will say with regard to the circular is that it was issued only after I had seen the people and not before. If I wanted justification for my action from the standpoint of people qualified to know whether this will be a good thing, I could fall back on the constitution of the Council. Here may I say that 12 out of 31 of the individuals directly concerned are either in the universities or in the type of school that has been spoken of as being faced with ruin if this comes into operation. I believe it matters not only what the individual knows at 15 but also what he carries with him when he goes further. I do not believe that if he drops either one or two subjects because he cleared the hurdle at an earlier stage he is all the better for having cleared the hurdle at that period.

One hon. Member apologised for speaking because he was an amateur in education and educational administration. I want to say quite honestly and openly that we are all amateurs in this field. There are no professionals. There may be some experts, but I agree with the senior Burgess for Cambridge University that we need to be careful of them. I believe it is possible in this field for the universities to find what they want in the scheme that has been drawn up; that it is possible for the professions to find what they want; and that it is to the general advantage of the greater freedom of the schools to put in this minimum age. That is the reason I came to the decision.

Has the right hon. Gentleman had any indication from the universities that they are making proposals to the secondary schools in order to ease the situation?

They are discussing the matter and going into the whole question.

So many points have been raised in the Debate that I have not time to deal with all of them, but on the question of teachers' training I say honestly and sincerely that I am just as worried as anyone else that it has been found necessary to extend the period a little. I have no intention of appearing in sackcloth, because someone who was quoted said two years ago that we should be faced with this position, and has now the privilege of saying, "I told you so." The fact remains that two years ago he had no responsibility. I had not at that time, but I have had since. It is easy to come to conclusions and two years afterwards to write to the newspapers, when one has no responsibility, and to say, "I told you so."

The same individual who advised me as Minister to drop 10,000 of these individuals—[HON. MEMBERS: "Who was it?"] I am speaking of the individual who was quoted. The suggestion was that we had over-estimated the number of men whom we would require, and that we could get out of the difficulty by dropping them. I would have been in a white sheet long before this if I had listened to the advice which came from some quarters as to how we ought to overcome this difficulty. It was obvious, even to the unenlightened, that we would have more men than women, because this was a scheme, not only to meet the educational requirements, but to give an opportunity to those who had served in the war, and whose opportunities of embarking upon a career had been broken. It was an opportunity to give them a chance, and the fact that out of 100,000 applications 70,000 were men was obvious, because there were so many more men than women whose education had been interrupted; but when it was seen that there would need to be a change in the numbers, we made that move at what I consider to be the earliest time that we could possibly do so, and I thought it right that we should tell the men so straight away.

I realise the disappointment, but having given an undertaking that they would be trained, we said that those who made the grade would be found employment, and we stick to that promise, which still stands. We do not want these men immediately because it is necessary to get more women by reason of the age range that is coming in. I little thought that I should be standing at this Box at any time after 1942, in some difficulty, because there had been such an increase in the birthrate. All the experts to whom we were asked to listen some time ago told us that it was never likely to happen. I said that we would train these men because we should need them in a few years' time when the bulge had gone through. Just as there is need for more women at the present time because of the birthrate, so in a few years' time there will be need for more men because the bulge going up in the age range will render them necessary. I disagree with the suggestion that there has been a lot of "hooey" talked about these people. I believe that they are good material, and I do not believe that they would have waited so long, had they not been good material. When I say that I promise to look into this question to see whether In some way we can relieve the situation, I want it to be realised that there are difficulties; but I shall do the best I can to see whether this problem cannot be met and the difficulties overcome.

I think there is a limited field in which men can assist in overcoming this difficulty. It may be true that there are 200 men teaching infants. During the last 12 months or so I have been round a good many schools, and I have visited a great many rural schools and know something of the difficulties under which they are working. I am not only sympathetic towards them, but I am anxious to do all I can to improve the conditions. I believe that the contribution we can make in this direction is small. It may be that men are capable of dealing with tiny tots.

We are pressing upon local authorities the necessity to take more men than they have done in the past. If some people are finding it difficult it is only because of their past experience; because there are some authorities who have engaged this number of men for a long time. I think these difficulties can be overcome. The question was raised as to the contribution that can be made by married women. Where teachers are needed and married women are prepared to come forward, it is nothing short of a scandal that at this time a local authority should prevent them from being employed. So far as married women are concerned, we have issued instructions that they can be taken, and that they will not count towards the maximum establishment. And so there is every inducement. We have done the same in regard to the young folk waiting to go into colleges who cannot be provided for this year. The proposals we have in hand and the scheme in operation in regard to the permanent training of men and women teachers are far in excess of anything which has been attempted before, and they will be needed in the days to come.

Finally, I will refer to the improvements which have been asked for in regard to technical colleges. It will be impossible to deal with every subject that has been raised, because so many comments have been made which call for an answer. What we are trying to do is develop our technical education in such a way that we can make a contribution at the earliest possible moment to the productivity about which so much is being said at the present time. At the moment there are something like 10 different schemes going forward for improvements to technical colleges in different parts of the country, and we are hoping that there will be greater provision for technical education in the 1949 programme. The technical scholarships are being taken up by satisfactory students, but the number is not yet big because the scope has not been too good. Not only are all the technical colleges and schools full at the moment, but there are thousands of individuals who cannot obtain the technical education they are clamouring for because there is no room in the schools to teach them. I would point out, because it has been suggested that we are going backwards and not forwards that, with one exception, we have all the technical colleges which we had before the war. It is the demand that has grown—and it has grown out of all proportion—and has created the need.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Bradford (Mr. Titterington) made a special plea for Bradford to be given university status because it has a delightful technical college. We have established some seven national colleges dealing with several different subjects and the last of them is the Wool College in course of formation at Bradford. All I would say with regard to the status about which he asked is that we have a special committee, along with the University Grants Committee, looking into the question in the hope that the relationship between technical education and the universities shall be brought on to a reasonably good level and the necessity for its development realised to the full.

May I say a word of thanks for the patient way in which hon. Members have sat through the Debate and give them the assurance that, in spite of the fact that I very often smile, I am not in the least complacent about these matters?

Foreign Affairs

10.7 p.m.

One of our most important constitutional rights is that before we vote Supply, we ventilate our grievances and that, before we agree to appropriations, we are, in the same way, entitled to reflect and ask questions. I have sat here for a long time with a growing uneasiness and am not prepared to acquiesce in that uneasiness any longer. It is with that in my mind that I approached you, Mr. Speaker, and other right hon. Members with a view to dealing with the subject I intend to raise tonight. I have given an undertaking to you, Mr. Speaker, not to say anything about the delicate situation which is now being dealt with. I hope that other hon. Members who follow me will be good enough to observe that undertaking, because I am sure we all want to co-operate together with a view to avoiding any further difficulties and to bring about a reconciliation in the present relationships between the various Powers.

Last "Friday, in my constituency, a woman—I should have said a lady, a real lady—came to see me and her daughter sat on the other side of the table. When the lady began to speak, she broke down and sobbed like a child. Eventually, to try to assist her, I sympathised with her, and this is the reason I found for her plight. Although she had a very fine council house—and people nowadays regard themselves as living in heaven if they have a decent house; she was living in a very fine house according to our standards—she wanted a change from the house in which she was living. Eventually I was able to gain her confidence and learned that the reason she wanted the change was that she had just lost a boy aged six who had been drowned in a pond near where they lived. This affected me very seriously because of my own experience, about which, however, I shall not say anything tonight. It reminded me of another woman in my division who lost two sons in the last war, and is now stone deaf as a result of the terrible effect of losing those two sons. It reminded me of my wife's cousin whose son, the idol of her life, was killed when playing his part in a Lancaster over Germany. The mothers of the whole world whose sons were drawn into the war all look upon their sons being as good as any other mother's son.

I have travelled practically the whole of Europe and wherever I have gone I have tried to talk to as many ordinary people as I could, and I have found that most people want to do right in life. They have nothing against one another in the main, but want to make their contribution and to work together. Whether the skins of people be black, white, or yellow, that is the general outlook. Here I am, only 51 years of age, having passed through two world wars, and if I live my normal span of life, in all probability, because of the way things are going, I may see a third world war. I remember as a boy in France seeing boys as good as I was, and as good as any of us ever were, cut off in the flower of their youth.

I remember playing football with an English team and travelling about the country and seeing boys in the flower of their youth—no more than boys. I have lived on and am fairly strong and healthy. Some of us came back determined to play our part to prevent a similar catastrophe ever occurring again. We threw our weight into the League of Nations Union, brotherhood meetings and such things, but we drifted until we were again involved in a world war. Those who care most, dare most. A lesson dearly bought is a lesson well taught, and I am determined to do all I can to prevent a situation occurring which would create such another experience in my lifetime.

My generation is simply sickened of war. I have been privileged to be friendly with all the great working-class characters of this country during the past 20 years, and I am confident that what I am saying tonight reflects their ideas which were shown when they played their part in the building of this movement. The situation has got even worse than any of us dreamt of years ago. Modern war is idiotic criminality and those who talk of the inevitability of war should be charged with crimes against humanity. Yet great war preparations are now taking place, greater preparations than ever, and the time has come for someone to raise his voice to call a halt. I was privileged to be friendly with one of the greatest souls who ever passed through this House, our old colleague, whom we all respected, George Lansbury. If he were here today, he would be in the forefront in expressing the uneasiness which I am expressing.

Those of us who were in London during the war well remember what the London people went through. In 80 days and nights the V.1s. damaged one million houses in England. The maximum range at that time was 200 miles. According to what I read about V.2s developments now taking place give them a range of about 2,500 miles and V.3s. are now being manufactured to carry an atomic bomb And the range of this weapon is still secret. I have here the annual report of General Electric in which there is a page about the atomic manufacturing process, and in other pages with which I have not time to deal there are explanations of the processes that are being carried on.

That is the background, and we are enabled to measure man's progress in life by the following facts. One spear killed one man, one cannon eight men, a large cannon 88 men, one V.2 182 men, one atomic bomb 100,000 men. Where will it all end? In one of the now out- of-date air raids that took place over Tokyo in March, 1945, there were 100,000 people either killed or burned. We send missions to India, to Japan and other places; and then targets were made of the same people in out-of-date air raids and later with 1945 atomic bombs. Those are out-of-date compared with the 1948 ones.

We have now arrived at a period when all those who claim to be democrats have to face up to this serious issue, for atomic warfare will mean complete obliteration wherever it takes place. Over a broadened area it will sterilise the ground wherever it takes place. Radioactivity would be left by atomic bombs, by the modern methods of the spraying of radioactive dust and by the rockets now being worked upon. The land would be left uninhabitable for many years. Therefore, let those who talk with glee about their progress in atomic warfare beware, for scientists are as busy in other countries on cosmic rays and bacteriological warfare. Therefore, we must warn the people of the world in time, for the world's people must get together in order to stop the mad race towards catastrophe.

Let me underline this point as heavily as I can. Man has now arrived at a stage when no modern war can be won. Millions can be killed, mutilated or burned, their lands can be devastated for ages and on their land nothing will live for years. In other parts of the world, should war come, there will be sickened, ashamed people and years of economic strangulation. Therefore, all realists from now onwards should fight war before war takes place. It may be too late next month. Next year all may be lost.

I have here a report of the Home Office based upon a report prepared by the police president of Hamburg. This report places on record, what ought to be read by all—I have no time to give extracts from it—but it shows what a terrible effect our air raids had upon Hamburg. Those of us who were familiar with certain people carrying out the experiments at the time knew what was going on, and as the new type of bombs were first launched over Hamburg, they were known to the boys as fire leaves. These spread fire over miles. So terrible was the heat that there was no hope of rescue for months and months and the dead lay there for months and months. There was a complete breakdown of the Hamburg rescue squad—in spite of the fact that it was highly organised—because of the efficient method of our bombing over Hamburg at that time.

There is surely something wrong with us if we want to be parties to the perpetuation and continuation of that kind of thing. We are all proud of the development of our country. We have now reached the stage when an ordinary man born of ordinary people, can come here and speak to the people as we do We have not reached this development easily in Britain. It has been a result of generations of constant struggle and strife by all people, and the position we have arrived at is that the same kind of broad policy must be applied to the international situation.

Let us remind ourselves that we have a greater density of population and industry in our country than any other part of the world. In that population and density are all our relations, all that we hold dear. We should remind ourselves that it took one ton of German bombs to kill one Englishman but it took seven tons of British bombs to kill one German. In any future war our country will be the most vulnerable in the world. There is no longer any defence against V.2's, V.3's, V.4's, and V.5's and V.6's are now on the the drawing boards. The only permanent defence for any country in the future, especially our country, is permanent peace. Therefore, it becomes the sole responsibility of those of us who remember what we were told when we were young, and what the movement was built up for, to go to our people again, and go to the people of the world, in order to prevent what may occur.

Our country then should again take the initiative in a world drive towards world brotherhood. It is no longer good enough to be talking about brotherhood on a Sunday and then not being prepared to advocate it in the House of Commons. What Arthur Henderson drew his strength from wherever he went in the world, was this. What Arthur Henderson said at Durham, Arthur Henderson said in the House of Commons. What Arthur Henderson said in the House of Commons, Arthur Henderson said behind closed doors in international affairs, and wherever he went.

Although people may differ from a man, if a man has one strong aim in life and refuses to be sidetracked, then, as a result of pursuing that policy, he builds up confidence of a kind possessed by certain international figures. That is the kind of thing we must aim at today. It is easy to be nice with everybody. It is easy to row with the stream. It is easy to be on the side of the popular millions. Real men are tested by the line they take in difficult circumstances. As sure as I am standing here, history proves that these men are proved right sooner or later. Therefore, as a realist, I say that I am frightened at the drift of affairs in the world.

It is my privilege to have been trained in one of the most efficient factories in this country. It was there the pioneering and experimentation took place which produced the ideas which finished with the production of the atomic bomb. As a result of that background, I am friendly with some of the finest scientists that this country has ever produced. Although those men have to continue to do their duty, they are limited because of certain difficulties. Although they are carrying on with the work, those men live in dread of the potentialities of what they are doing, unless what they produce is used for the purpose of eliminating unnecessary suffering in mankind instead of being used for developments towards war. Atomic warfare, cosmic rays, bacteriological warfare are all being developed.

This is absolute modern madness. Modern war will mean the slaughter of humanity. War is now irreconcilable with life. Everyone who treasures life must be prepared to stand for what we are putting forward tonight. War is now incompatible with all that we were told in our Sunday schools, chapels and churches. Modern war is indefensible. It will lead to catastrophe and madness. There never can be another ordinary war. World War III, if man allows it, will be a war of continuous atrocities. Yet some people talk about the inevitability of war. Some people travelling home in the trams, the buses and cars from here not many nights ago were talking about taking a stand in a certain situation. I know some men who worked on the first atomic bombs. Now these brave men are prepared to admit, when they dare, that they are frightened of the potentialities of their work. Yet, on 15th November, 1945, the President of the United States and the Prime Ministers of Britain and Canada said:

I feel very uneasy about what has been going on in Germany. Hitler said, just before he died, that he would win the war or leave Germany in such a state that they would win next time. There must be no next time. There is some evidence of what is taking place in Germany in two books which have been published in America on the I.G. Farbenindustrie. I recommend that all hon. Members should read these books. The first one shows the ramifications of I.G. Farben. Some of us raised this issue year after year before the war, but nobody bothered. They sneered and jeered at us. Icebergs sat round us. Those hon. Members who were Members of the last Parliament will remember who first raised the issue of Ribbentrop and how they sneered and jeered. As sure as we are here, the same thing is going to take place in regard to I.G. Farbenindustrie in Germany. Although I do not want to develop this, because of the undertaking I have given, I hope the House will have regard to what I have mentioned.

I have here an exact copy of a letter written from New York on 25th March, 3946, by Harold L. Ickes, who, if I remember rightly, was an Under-Secretary in the United States Government at that time. He wrote to a friend of mine. Here is the copy if anyone wants to see it. I will quote one extract:

The time has arrived when men with any real manhood in them, and women with any real womanhood in them, should be prepared to take a stand, as was done at Peterloo, Tonypandy, Dorchester, Tolpuddle, and other places. Those who can speak openly in that way have to take a stand with regard to the international situation. Therefore, I am asking that Labour should apply Labour's policy. At any other time I should have asked the Foreign Secretary if he remembered his Blackpool speech. I should have asked him if he remembered sitting in a car on the Promenade at Blackpool, and in the Clifton Hotel, when that speech was prepared. That speech was sound. If that speech were acted upon, a large amount of the trouble in the world would be eliminated.

Therefore, I plead with this House of Commons, I plead with the Government, with our own people and with everyone who is prepared to listen, for a new start in dealing with the drifting into this situation. I am confident that we ought to appeal for a basis which would lend itself to the preparation of a world peace conference based upon an absolute settlement of the German situation by agreement, nationalisation of the heavy German industries with international control; settlement of European problems by withdrawal by agreement of all forces, world agreement upon economic co-operation and upon oil; world disarmament by agreement, and a determination to enforce the United Nations policy.

Although speaking with some feeling and concern, I am carrying out the promise I have given. I would like to have spoken more directly but I do not think it would be wise to do so at present. I am sure that no one wants to say a word that is going to add to the difficulties. But we want to remind ourselves that war is not like an earthquake; it is the result of man's failure to solve his economic problems and to co-operate; man's expenditure upon armaments, modern research; and now, certain cliques in some parts of the world which are determined to hold back the further development of democracy. After generations, we have worked out in our own country a social consciousness which is reflected in the repeal of the Poor Law, and the determination of the British people to join together. We have now to join together in the same way to create a world consciousness which will avoid war in the future. If man allows war, he will be faced with mass slaughter, and with devastating consequences which no one will be able to evade. What is at stake, on the one hand, is the best in life, the best in progress, and the best in love; every man and every woman has to decide, for tomorrow may be too late, which side he or she will take.

10.40 p.m.

I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith) and I have been able to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, and that we have the opportunity to speak on what, in our minds, are grave issues of international policy. The fact that we are able to exercise this right is an advantage which we hon. Members of this British Parliament possess over the citizens of totalitarian countries; and it is very important that this democratic right, and others, should be preserved and jealously guarded.

The fact that we are able to exercise these rights is due rather to an incidental occurrence in our Parliamentary procedure than to any co-operation from the Government. On the contrary, the Government, with the collusion of the Opposition, have done their best—their very best?—to prevent any discussion at this juncture on international affairs. We have had no general Debate on international affairs since the Whitsun Recess; we had, I admit, a Debate on Germany, which developed into a Debate on Berlin, but we are to depart from this House for six weeks and not until September may we have the opportunity to discuss international affairs on the Motion for the Address.

My hon. Friend says that we may come back earlier, but personally I do not think so. I am not so pessimistic as some of my hon. Friends on this question. But by the time we reach the middle of September, more than four months will have passed since we had a Debate; and great events have taken place in the time which has passed, and may take place, in the time which must pass before we reassemble. The Foreign Secretary has not given to this House a review of Government policy, and has not told us where the Government are going. Hon. Members have not had the opportunity of giving their views and judgments on international affairs. I suggest that this is not treating the House fairly.

After all, there has been in the public Press of this country for several weeks past a continuous discussion about international affairs. Day after day there has been news about these affairs on the front pages, with discussions and comments on the leader pages. Some of the newspapers have not behaved in a very responsible way, having selected the most sensational and discouraging developments in the international scene from which to make headlines on the front pages.

One newspaper which has been particularly guilty in this respect is the "Daily Herald"; for weeks we have seen in it nothing but sensational headlines about international affairs. I have a bundle of issues of that newspaper here, and I will not weary the House by reading any number; in any case, hon. Members can see them in the Library. I will, however, quote from one of them. On 21st July, the "Daily Herald," across five or six columns, stated, "America Joins Western Union—Defence Talks" and then, in large type, "U.S. Staff Men Here." In a "box," we read, "The crisis anew—by the Editor," referring to the crisis which

Are the Government suggesting that hon. Members are less responsible than these daily journals, that they are less capable of taking a rational view of the situation and are not careful of not being provocative in a delicate situation? If the Government want to gag anybody, and stop them from talking about international affairs, why do they not begin by gagging the "Daily Herald"? After all, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs used to have a good deal of influence with that newspaper: perhaps he has still a good deal of influence with it; and if the situation is so delicate that we are not to discuss it in this House, why is it that these things go on in the daily Press? Of course, it is all nonsense. This democratic Parliament ought to have the fullest right to discuss the issue at all times, just as it had such a right even in the depths of the greatest crisis this country ever faced during the war.

Therefore, some of us have felt it necessary to exercise this democratic right, and although we gave notice to the Foreign Office, I very much regret that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has not seen fit to come to the House to listen to the Debate and answer it at the end. It is true that we have present the Under-Secretary of State. We are very pleased to see him. He is always courteous and patient—but perhaps I am anticipating him falsely; I hope not. He will agree, however—and I say this without any intention of offence—that his presence does not carry quite the same weight as that of the right hon. Gentleman. But here we are. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, who would have been here if the Opposition had insisted on their Debate, does not come to the House when the Opposition gives way to his wishes. In other words, what are we to have? We are to go away without the Secretary of State listening to the views of the House, without his giving us any review of what is happening and what he is driving at during the present period. He is to make a statement tomorrow. He will come down to the House, make a statement: he will be asked a few questions, which he will answer, and that will be the end of it.

That is not good government. It is important that this important issue of international policy should be debated in this House, and that we should have a proper reply to it. There have been some very important things happening in the world in the past few months and since last we had a general Debate here. There have been important things happening in the Far East: developments in relation to Japan which we might discuss. There has been the important Six-Power Agreement on Germany, which has received no discussion in this House, and finally there has been that most important development, Western Union. Yet we have had no information given to us on what is happening, or what the Government's intentions are. It is on that particular subject I want to say a few words.

I want to know what is happening to Western Union and what is happening about it? This is my first question to my hon. Friend—what is Western Union? Some of us had the idea that Western Union, when it was first mooted in this House many months ago, was to be some kind of effective collaboration between as many of the nations of Western Europe as were prepared to come in. But now I am told that Western Union today is the official designation, not of this kind of wider collaboration, but of the group of nations which have adhered to the Brussels Treaty. I would like to have that confirmed or denied.

Is Western Union now limited to that inner circle of nations who have accepted certain military undertakings under the Brussels Treaty, and if that is so, does it mean that no nation is to be admitted to this charmed inner circle unless it is prepared to accept similar military undertakings? The Scandinavian countries, for example—are they not to be admitted to Western Union unless they are prepared to join in a military pact and military commitments? What has happened to the peaceful, constructive design behind Western Union? What is being done about that? What steps are being taken, or have been taken, in the last few months to promote an economic integration of the Western European countries, the pooling of their resources, the joint planning of their economic policies, the working out of the common strategy in the economic and social field? What is being done about all these things?

One thing we do learn from the Press, from the disclosures of diplomatic correspondents, though not from statements in this House, is that the military side of Western Union is going along at a very great rate. We understand that the Military Committee has been meeting in almost constant session. We understand that the military staffs have been getting together and discussing these very things in the military field—pooling resources, common strategy, joint planning, military integration. All those things are being actively undertaken and implemented in the military field. I ask my hon. Friend whether there has been any similar concentration of effort on the peaceful, constructive aspects of Western Union such as there has been on its military aspects?

Then, there are apparently wider developments now taking place. We were, informed, in the "Daily Herald"—I read the headlines—and in other organs of the Press, that staff officers from the United States and from Canada have now joined the Military Committee of Western Union. They are here now in London discussing and planning—what, I do not know. I want to know whether this military co-operation with the United States and Canada is a temporary thing or whether it is part of a long-term plan, just as I would rather like to know whether the visit of the American Super-Fortresses to this country, and their occupation of British air bases, is a temporary thing or part of a long-term plan. In answer to Questions that were put to the Secretary of State for Air today, we were told that it has not been decided how long the B.29'S will stay, and that other visits by United States squadrons will be made. A number of United States fighter aircraft are expected during August. In other words, we are apparently expecting a continual relay of United States fighter and bomber planes visiting this country to carry out what will become, in effect, a permanent occupation of British air bases.

Is this part of a long-term design, or is it a purely temporary arrangement? Is this association of the military staffs of Western Union, Britain, Canada and the United States part of the plan to build up what is now referred to as an "Atlantic Defence Union"—an Atlantic Pact—along the lines which were first mooted by the Canadian Secretary of State for External Affairs, M. St. Laurent, in a speech in the Canadian Parliament last April? On 29th April, he advocated what he called the formation of a collective defence union within the framework of Article 51 of the Charter. He has since elaborated that statement and defined the countries which ought to come into this collective defence union as Western Union, Britain, Canada and the United States.

Are we aiming to build up a military alliance along those lines? Is that the aim of our policy? If so, we should be told that, and told it very frankly. I hope that we shall not be told this is only carrying out a part of the United Nations Charter. It is perfectly true that Article 51 provides for collective self-defence against aggression, and it is perfectly true that Article 52 provides for regional defence arrangements. I am rather interested to note that there has been a shift of ground. Formerly we were told that we were building up arrangements under Article 52; now we are told they are being made under Article 51. What are the reasons for this shift of ground?

That is rather a secondary point because I am quite sure, whether or not we find an article in the Charter upon which to base these plans, what really matters is that we are proposing to form a military alliance of the old-fashioned type as though the United Nations did not exist. I am quite sure that when the Charter was drawn up in San Francisco, no delegate contemplated that Article 51 or Article 52 would be used to build up a military alliance embracing three of the permanent Great Powers aimed at one of the other two remaining Great Powers.

Does the hon. Member suggest that any delegate imagined that the veto would be used in the way it has been in the last two years?

The hon. Member knows that at the time the veto was introduced on the proposal of the United States, the Soviet Union, and this country, it was intended and fully known that the veto could be used in order to prevent military action from taking place.

Would a delegate then have expected that Czechoslovakia would be murdered by the Soviet Union?

I do not want to go over a complete review of post-war history. I could go into this matter in very great detail, in addition to the matter raised by my hon. Friend and raise, for example, the question of the establishment of American bomber bases in Turkey within only a few miles of the Soviet frontier. Whatever my hon. Friend brings up, if I cared, I could give parallel cases in which something could be brought against the United States as well. I am not going into that kind of discussion now.

What I am concerned with is that under the disguise of the Atlantic Pact or in whatever form it is, we are now apparently proposing to build up a military alliance embracing thre of the five Great Powers which have permanent seats on the Security Council, embracing two of what used to be known as the Big Three and aimed quite frankly, in the words of M. St. Laurent and others who have supported this idea, against the other member of that trio. That is what we are now apparently proposing to do. I have no doubt that hon. Members opposite will support that idea. I want to know whether the Government support it and intend to carry it out, because if they do, it carries with it at the same time the gravest dangers both to this country and to the peace of the whole world.

It would be carrying out the plan put forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford. It would be the Fulton plan, and the right hon. Gentleman would then be able to say with truth—as he claimed last January—that the Government were at long last, carrying out the plan he advocated at that time. That Fulton plan—let us have no misunderstanding about this—means, first of all, that this country would be committed to going to war on the side of the U.S.A. if the U.S.A. were involved in some military adventure or other as the result of blundering diplomacy. It is all very well to say that it gives us protection and that it is very nice to have the U.S.A. coming to our aid if we are attacked, but do not let us forget that these commitments are always two-sided. They could equally, and even more, commit us to following the U.S.A. into a war which we did not desire, and which the U.S.A. might not desire but into which they might blunder through faulty diplomacy. It means, secondly, that the strategy and the foreign policy of this country will come increasingly under the control of Washington rather than of Whitehall.

The third and most important thing it means, is that it will virtually divide the whole world into two hostile camps, and when you have the whole world divided cleanly into two in that way, and everybody is lined up in one camp or the other, then the danger of a fatal clash becomes so great as to be a certainty. That is the grave danger which is facing not only this country but the world today. Of course, it affects us more than the peoples of other countries, because our fate in such a case is to be blotted out. If we really want to preserve the world's peace—and here I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke—there is only one supreme objective for our foreign policy these days—not to win the next war, but to stop the next war from ever happening.

I say that if we go along this line of building up an Atlantic military alliance, then we are bringing the next war almost certainly many years nearer and turning it into a virtual certainty. If we are to preserve peace in the future, we must avoid this fatal division into hostile camps. We must try to see that there are countries and groups of countries like our own, which are not committed to one camp or the other and which, therefore, can act as a mediating group between the great rival centres of power. That should be the rôle of this country—not to join in on one side against the other.

That kind of association involves all kinds of political consequences. It means that we are being forced to choose between the United States and the Soviet Union. Why should the British people be forced to choose between monopoly Communism and monopoly Capitalism? I do not believe that the British people want that. The people who elected me to Parliament do not want that. They want the British way of life. They want democratic Socialism. They want a great third group of Powers which is able to contribute something to the world which the world has not got to show anywhere else, and of which this country represents the great spearhead.

Hon. Members had sent to them a few weeks ago—at any rate I received one—a copy of the front page of the "New York Times." It was a sample issue, on the basis of which I was invited to subscribe to the "New York Times" overseas weekly. It happened to be the Sunday issue of 18th April, the day of the Italian elections. I read this main headline—"Italy chooses Between Us and Russia." Not Italy chooses its own Government, its own way of life, but "Italy Chooses Between Us and Russia"—and no apology for it. It is accepted as the right thing in the world that every country should be forced to choose between "us and Russia."

Both the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. have brought pressure to bear in the election campaigns. Both have waged intensive propaganda warfare in efforts to influence the Italian voters. That is the situation to which they have come in some countries in Europe. I do not accept that situation for this country. I accept the point of view expressed by the secretary of the French Socialist Party when he said a few weeks ago—

Yugoslavs (Repatriation)

11.4 p.m.

I do not propose to go on at length with the general foreign affairs Debate, but following on what my hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) has said, I am inclined to agree with him that it would have been better if we had had a full foreign affairs Debate. I do not believe that full-dress Debates in this House ever do any harm. I was made deeply suspicious when I observed the alacrity with which the Opposition fell in with the Government's view. I think that, from the back bencher's point of view, it would have been better had there been a full-dress Debate.

When my hon. Friend went on to speak of the desirability of a third force in Europe, I agreed with him, but let us observe that, as far as I understand the general economic set-up, it is impossible to rehabilitate Europe without help from across the Atlantic. If in the course of so doing, alliances are made because of the intransigence of Soviet Russia, the Russians have only themselves to blame and nobody else. You cannot make love to somebody who refuses to make love to you. Even if the Russians refuse to co-operate, I do not want to bring about a cleavage of the kind my hon. Friend speaks about. I would ask the Russians to bear in mind that we must have a gesture from them to show that they are willing to collaborate for world peace, about which my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith) spoke so eloquently in his speech.

Is my hon. Friend suggesting that for economic aid from the United States, we should have to make a military alliance with them, too?

I am not saying that. All the aggression so far, I observe, has come from the East and not from the West, and I can understand the point of view of the Foreign Secretary in that matter. I want the people of the East to realise how wrongly they are being led, and to join with us and all the people of the world to work for peace. If all the peoples of the world got together, every single man jack of them I hope, the statesmen of the world would have enough sense to see that war did not break out. That is all I want to say on the subject we have debated so far.

I sought to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to refer to a humanitarian subject on a much smaller scale, and that is the treatment that is still being meted out to certain people who have fallen into our power, and whom we are repatriating to governments and communities from whom, in my opinion, and in the opinion of some of my hon. Friends, they will not receive fair treatment. I admit at once that the Under-Secretary of State made a most important statement on Monday when he announced the finalisation of forcible repatriation of people to Yugoslavia by giving a list of people who were still due to go back: he said there would be an end to it after that. I regret very much that he did not inform any Member of the House interested in the matter, of his intention so that some of us were not in our places to ask supplementary questions. However, a step has been made, and that is a great advance.

My concern is on a smaller matter, and I hope the House will forgive me if I talk for a few moments about it. My concern is about just a handful of people who are either on the verge of being actually forcibly repatriated in the last forcibly repatriated, or who have been few days. The background of the matter is this. About 18 months ago I drifted into a camp in Rome in which were a number of Yugoslavs, and they were detained there because it was said that they were desired by their own Government. I made a comprehensive report to the Foreign Office about it. Nothing very much was done at the time. No- body was forcibly repatriated because the American writ ran in Italy as well as our writ, and the Americans would not agree to forcibly repatriating anybody, so we could not have sent anybody back if we had wanted to. When the Italian Treaty came along it was found desirable to remove the Yugoslavs from Italy, and about 15,000 were sent to the British Zone of Germany. The poor fools thought they were going to complete safety. They overlooked the fact that the American writ did not run in the British Zone of Germany.

During a visit to Munster Lager camp I saw some 140 of them who might have been forcibly repatriated. Eighteen were ultimately selected but 17 of those escaped, and with regard to the eighteenth the Foreign Office thought better of it and found he was not the man they had first thought he was, or that the evidence against him was foul. I have nothing to say about those. But it was brought to my attention that there were some Yugoslavs in a camp at Esterwegen in north Germany, who had been left there, and whom nobody had been to see. I went to have a look at them. Some of them recognised me at once by saying that they had met me in Rome. They were the same people I saw, some 14 months before, herded together in cells like cages in the Regina Elena Prison in Rome.

I made a further report on this matter, as a result of which 15 were released. Five are now down for forcible repatriation. The serious part of the business to me is that no fair trial awaits them at the other end. In the Debate of 4th December last year, which Debate was never answered, either in the House, because the Minister was not available, or in correspondence since, I made it clear from extracts of the law in that country that no advocate may act for a so-called collaborator or traitor save in the interests of the State.

Let me emphasise that these people are not so-called war criminals, but so-called collaborators or traitors. Who have they collaborated with and to whom have they been traitorous, because that part of the world has always been in a jumble? I well remember when the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) was Prime Minister, he came down to the House one morning and said he had great news for this country—a young nation had found its soul! Yugoslavia had entered the war. With no ceremony I said, "Rubbish!" I knew perfectly well, having been over there, that they were all fighting one another, as they have done for a long time past, and as they probably will go on doing unfortunately, for a long time to come. That makes it all the more important that a very thorough examination of his case should be made before any individual is sent back to a condition of things in which we do not believe he is going to have a fair trial.

My complaint is that the Foreign Office are not acting properly in this matter. They are not acting in a way the British public would stand for a single moment. I would call them "armchair murderers," though I do not know if the House will agree with me. These men were weeded out as men whose repatriation was demanded by the foreign government in question. They might be left in prison camps for a very long time and might then appear before a commission. I do not want to say anything against the integrity of members of the commission before whom these men appear, but they regard half the members of the commission before whom they are appearing, as being their enemies. It is very important that the House should bear that in mind.

These men appear before the commission, are identified and asked to state, then and there, their war-time activities. The charges of the foreign government, in this case the Yugoslav Government, are then read out to them. They are not given an opportunity to read them, and are asked then and there to state their answer. They are then dismissed from the presence and go back to prison camp, where they may stay a very long time. The people in Esterwegen had been in Rome. They were not touched until they came over to Germany. They were then interviewed and nothing more happened to them until I kicked up a fuss about a month ago.

After one appearance before the commission, a decision is taken by people behind the scences on whether or not there is a prima facie case. They are not given a copy of the charges against them. They are not allowed to be represented by counsel in any way. They are given no legal aid. They are not allowed to call anybody in defence of themselves. And, most fundamental of all, they are not given the evidence on which the charges are founded, so that they have not the slightest idea who has cooked up the charges, and my right hon. Friend admits that that is a thing which often happens in foreign lands.

I well remember the frightful things in Regulation 18b. I remember that an unfortunate woman was incarcerated for six months because there was written in her diary for 14th August, 1940: "Destroy British Queen and instal Italian." She was had up, and cross-examined before a committee. She did not know why she was accused of having some Italian interest, or intention to collaborate with the Italians. Eventually it was discovered that she kept bees. This woman, who had four children, was kept for six months. That is absolutely true. My hon. Friend told me the other week of a man who disembowelled 25 pregnant women—

The hon. Member has made a number of serious statements in his speech. I only want to say that I was on this occasion merely quoting in a private conversation, an entirely imaginary example.

My hon. Friend quoted it as an example of the sort of thing which might happen. I am glad to know that no one has done this. It is a difficult operation, and any person doing it would require assistance. If I were accused of crime, I should want to see all the evidence produced against me before I admitted having done it. That again is the sort of silly accusation which is made.

It may be. These men are never given the evidence upon which the charges against them are founded. They are never given the names of the people who have given the evidence. So far as I know, though I cannot be certain because I never had the opportunity to investigate these five cases, they never appeared more than once before the Commission. They were then left until I found them. It was pointed out to me that they must not be told of the decision to send them back or they might escape. It seems to me an outrageous thing to do. I want also to tell the House that when I saw them on 20th or 21st June, I told them, with the Camp Commandant's agreement, to write to me if any of them wanted to do so. Every one of them wrote within 24 hours, and the Foreign Office held up the letters for three weeks until after the decision was taken so I had no opportunity to speak to these five individually.

My hon. Friend accuses me of not investigating the case. I was not to know who was to be sent back until after the decision was taken. It was too late to get in touch then. I do not know where they are now. If my hon. Friend will let me know, I will gladly get an aeroplane and go to see them straight away. My demand is not that these people are necessarily not to be sent back—although I take the view that they should not be sent back—but I believe that the whole procedure has been so bogus and unsatisfactory, that their forcible repatriation should be suspended until the Foreign Secretary has satisfied himself that there is nothing in the complaint which I am making.

If there is nothing in that complaint, and he insists on sending them back, then that is another matter. But I believe that these people have not been given a proper opportunity. I want to know the date on which they appeared before the commission; whether they were only told the charges against them with no written copy and without being given any knowledge of the evidence; and whether they were allowed to call persons to give evidence in support of their claims that these charges were unfounded. Until that has been done, and these questions answered to the satisfaction of the Foreign Secretary himself, I demand that he should hold up sending these people back, so that a grave and hideous injustice may be avoided.

11.25 p.m.

I want to emphasise what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes). There are one or two of his arguments with which I am not in accord, but he has consistently pleaded the cause of these wretched people and if I am in agreement with his emotions, it does not mean that I am always in agreement with those arguments.

On a point of Order. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman who was formerly Postmaster-General has stated three times, within my hearing, "We thought that you were going to get up," speaking, I gather, to the Minister. May I ask, Sir, if it is proper for any hon. Member of this House to state on whom you are expected to call? I ask that because many of us feel strongly about this Debate and feel that it is one in which other hon. Members have the right to be called, before the Minister. I was informed a little earlier, and I will not say by whom, that if my hon. Friend returned to the Chamber he would be called and, if not, the Minister would be called. That rather tends to corroborate what I have just heard, and I should like to know, Mr. Speaker, that you will call hon. Members who wish to speak.

I quite agree; I will call any hon. Member who catches my eye, but it must be understood that, while the Standing Order (Sittings of the House) does not apply to this Business, that does not mean that any hon. Member may get up and be called. Liberty is not licence; I stand for liberty, but with control. I may see any hon. Member; I might see somebody else. I have this in my control, and no hon. Member has the right to say he may stand up and be called. I call the hon. Member whom I see. If the ex-Postmaster-General said he thought that somebody else was going to be called, he made a mistake. That is all. It may be somebody else next time.

Further to that point of Order. I understood that on this Bill it was the undoubted right of hon. Members to continue the Debate if they wished to address themselves to the Chair, so long as they caught your eye. That seems to be challenged in some parts of the House. This is a Debate on which many of us feel most strongly. Several hon. Members, including myself, have so expressed themselves, and also feel strongly about the postponement of the Debate. We are most anxious to express ourselves on this subject. What exactly, Sir, is the position?

I cannot say anything further, now. I wait until I see how the Debate develops. Therefore, I cannot say which hon. Members may catch my eye; those who catch my eye may continue the Debate, but I cannot say anything more in advance. There is no right, because an hon. Member says he wishes to talk, that he shall be called. I cannot accept that.

I was only asking, Sir, whether, if hon. Members wish to continue the Debate, they may speak.

It is somewhat difficult to develop an argument after these little incidents, but what I was about to say was that these Yugoslav prisoners whose case was mentioned are merely five or six. They are, very fortunately, the last batch of a large crowd. Our simple case is this. Many Members in this House are not persuaded that these men are being treated with justice. That is our simple case. The procedure is well known to everybody. These accused persons appear before a screening committee. The screening committee establishes their identity, checks their movements during war, examines the accusations against them, and then, after, I believe, expert legal advice, it is decided whether or not there is a prima facie case for them to answer. If there is, then these men are forcibly repatriated to their own countries to stand trial.

Whether we agree that this procedure is just, whether we agree that the trials are just or not, is quite beside the point. We surely have the duty to ensure that at least the procedure which we ourselves have adopted, shall be most scrupulously adhered to. Several of my hon. Friends are not satisfied that our own procedure is being strictly observed. We are still not satisfied, even after interviews with responsible Ministers, after questions and after much correspondence. Even now we are not satisfied, and tonight we are simply asking publicly, since we have received no satisfaction privately, that these men shall not be repatriated until such time as our doubts are resolved. We are not asking for favours. We are not asking for the release of these men; we are not asking for judicial justice. We are asking for delay.

The screening committee is a fact-finding committee, and nothing else. Any facts should be relevant whether they come from one side or the other. But we hear—as my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich has said, and he may be wrong: if so, I hope the Under-Secretary will assure us he is wrong—that these wretched men have been imprisoned for two years, that they are seen, questioned and heard all in one session. They can call no legal advisers since the committee is not a legal tribunal. They can call no friends, and we are not certain they know the detailed charges, or if they do that they know upon whose testimony and evidence they are based. Not knowing the full charges they have no means of replying.

I wish to assure the House that this is not a political issue. It is a question of whether our procedure is being followed and whether our principle of democratic Socialism is being applied. It is a serious matter. The request we make is a serious one. We are asking for delay in the repatriation of these men until such time as our doubts are resolved.

On a point of Order. I would remind you, Sir, of the statement you made when first you took the Chair, that when both sides of the House appear to be in collusion, you will be jealous of the rights of individual Members; and, having regard to that statement, may I ask whether it is right at this stage of the Debate and having regard to the fact that many Members are not in collusion on either side, but desire to be called, that they should not be called.

I remember that statement perfectly well. It is my business to see that the Debate is controlled reasonably, but we have had quite a long period which is Opposition time. They might have moved the Closure if they had wanted to. We have allowed a long time, and I think it is time the Minister should get up to reply.

I would not have dreamt, Mr. Speaker, of raising this point of Order had it not been for the fact that of the four speeches made, two were on a matter of comparatively minor importance and two—the first two—have been on a matter of fundamental impor- tance, to which I understand the Minister is not prepared to reply, and they were both hostile to this country.

The hon. Gentleman seems to know what the Minister's reply is going to be. I do not know and, therefore, I cannot make any further observation on that.

Further to the point of Order. May I ask whether calling on the Minister at this stage means that it will be impossible for the rest of us to speak?

We must wait to hear what the Minister will have to say. I do not yet know what will happen after that.

May I say, Sir, that on the question of Yugoslav prisoners there are a number of hon. Members who associated themselves with the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), and others who might violently disagree with him on some of his points? There are a few who wished to support him, completely against the evidence of the Under-Secretary, and who can say from their own experience of an interview they have had on this matter, that a grave miscarriage of justice is taking place for which the Under-Secretary is personally responsible. I wish, therefore, to ask whether hon. Members like myself who did have the privilege of waiting upon him, might have had the opportunity perhaps, if you had known that, of taking part in the Debate.

I think the hon. Member had better wait to hear what the Under-Secretary says when he replies.

With the greatest possible respect to your judgment and Ruling, is it not the case, Sir, that formerly the Opposition got its full time and that, in the normal manner, its time would have finished at 10 o'clock, but, owing to this being exempted Business, once the particular subject that the Opposition had decided to discuss came to an end at 10 o'clock, then a private Member got the opportunity on this special occasion of carrying on?

If I called hon. Members who wanted to continue the Debate on education they could have done so. There is no special time allotted afterwards for hon. Members who want to raise other subjects. I thought it was quite fair, in the interests of the liberty of speech, that I should call hon. Members who can state three or four points of view, which was really in Opposition time, but after Opposition time had been exhausted, or the Opposition did not wish to continue the Debate. I do not think it is now unreasonable that I should call upon the Minister to make a reply on Foreign Affairs and then I should use my own judgment—at least, not my own judgment, this is a matter for the House—and I think I might perfectly well then ask the House whether they wish to go on or not.

Further to that point of Order. On this very important point of whose time it is, there was a discussion yesterday about it on Business. With great respect, is not the Consolidated Fund Bill the time of the House as a whole and not the Opposition.

I think that it has always been considered that generally the Opposition had the first claim. Quite frankly, I am averse to seeing a debate on the Consolidated Fund Bill or any Bill which is exempted Business continued without a reply from a Minister. We are a House; we debate a question and get an answer from the Minister. It is my responsibility when I call on the Minister, but to go on talking and merely beating the air is, in my opinion, derogatory to the House of Commons, and I oppose it entirely.

On a point of Order. I am somewhat concerned about what is happening tonight. My experience has shown me that in the House, after the Minister has spoken, there is very little chance of the Debate being carried on. I recognise that you, Mr. Speaker, have in your replies tonight been quite fair and reasonable about this. You are going to use your judgment, as you have every right to do, but you have also indicated to the House that you do not think it wise or suitable that we should go on debating the matter. I have sat very silently in this House, never taking part in any foreign affairs Debates. I have sat and listened to what I respectfully say is a great deal of beating the air in Debates, and there is no suggestion that those Debates should be stopped. So I can only say that I shall feel it very strongly if I am not allowed to have this opportunity of taking part in this Debate, I am the last man in the world to go against the wishes of the Chair, but I am very concerned about what is happening.

The hon. Member is making a mistake. It may be that I think that a debate should come to an end, but the Question is then put to the House. It is not for me to decide. It is for the House to decide, and if the Question is put to the House and the House decides the Debate should not come to an end, that is a matter for the House. Obviously I indicate when the Debate should be concluded, but that is not my affair. I cannot call everyone until the Minister gets up. We might go on all night, and I do not know what hon. Members would say about that. I think it is better to put the matter to the House, but I want to hear what the Minister has to say. Probably then I may make up my mind whether to try to close the Debate or not.

I want to put views which I hold very strongly, and views on which I speak for my constituents. With great respect I must protest against anything which I wish to say being referred to as beating the air.

All these matters are challenges to my right to select a speaker, which is my complete right. Any hon. Member who objects must put down a Motion of Censure on myself. That is the only answer.

The House will not expect me to deal with the very wide and delicate issues of foreign policy raised by the first two speakers this evening.

I should like to deal with the specific point on which I have received notice and which was raised by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) and by several other hon. Members who have taken a keen interest in this admittedly difficult and extremely important question—

On a point of Order. I am in the memory of the House when I say that the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn) gave notice yesterday—and it was known yesterday that if he had the opportunity of catching the Speaker's eye he would raise the question of the degeneration of Western Union. How does the Member know that he would not catch the Speaker's eye?

The hon. Member must know that no one knew that he would catch the Speaker's eye: it is pure chance.

The Minister says he only got notice that the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) would raise some question, but the hon. Member for King's Norton also gave him notice yesterday that if he did catch your eye he would raise the question of the degeneration of Western Union. Why cannot the Minister make a statement on that now?

As I am one of the hon. Members, along with the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith) who has been brushed aside in this fashion by my hon. Friend, may I remind him that I telephoned the Private Secretary to the Secretary of State this afternoon at 5 o'clock to give him notice that I intended, if called, to raise the subject of the degeneration of Western European Union into a military alliance, and that was in addition to verbal statements I have made to other people associated with the Foreign Office. Will my hon. Friend be good enough to inform the House what are the particular "delicate issues" which the hon. Member for Stoke and I have raised in the course of our remarks.

I do not wish to be drawn into explaining to the House exactly and precisely what the delicate issues are which were quoted in the House yesterday by the Lord President of the Council in asking the House to agree to not demanding from the Government a statement on international affairs at the present time. It is well known that conversations are proceeding not only on the Berlin problem, but also in Washington on the whole defence question of Western Union. I think it is the wish of the House that my right hon. Friend should not be pressed to make a statement at this time on this subject.

I propose therefore to turn to the specific cases of which I was given notice by the hon. Member for Ipswich. I begin by saying that of course I warmly share the sense of relief he felt that it was possible on Monday to make a statement announcing that this extremely anxious and difficult question has been cleared up. But I also recognise his anxiety about the fate of five men who will be handed over to the Yugoslav Government as soon as a clear prima facie case of wilful and active collaboration has been proved against them.

The hon. Member for Ipswich was not challenging our right to send these men back to Yugoslavia in certain circumstances, but he appeared to be demanding that we should be certain of their guilt. The House will appreciate that this puts me in a particularly difficult position. These men are going back to Yugoslavia to face trial. Therefore, it is incumbent on me not to say anything which may prejudice such chances as they have when they come to be tried. To defend myself against the charge that I am an "armchair murderer" would be possible if I could show the House that I was satisfied that these men are guilty. But, as will be appreciated, I cannot give any evidence to suggest that these men are guilty which might not prejudice their case when they return to Yugoslavia, and I am sure that the House would wish me, when there is a risk of that kind, to let the defence of the Government go by default rather than prejudice the case of these men.

That having been said, there are one of two other things I can say to reassure the hon. Member. In the first place, on the subject of the procedure we used, we have never stated, and it would be improper to state, that we consider these men guilty. We merely said that we considered that a prima facie case has been made against them. It is not my job to show that these men have gone through a water-tight trial. The hon. Member said they must have a fair trial before they are sent back. He said it again this evening. But of course that will not stand up.

I never said anything of the sort. I asked whether the hon. Member would tell us whether they had had written charges handed to them, and whether they had been given the evidence on which those charges are based.

The hon. Member has written to the Secretary of State, and has to my knowledge said it several times. He said on 19th July, in a letter to the Secretary of State:

The procedure we have adopted is to make certain with the utmost care that a prima facie case is shown. The hon. Member's information on the procedure we use is not accurate. I am not going into the cases in detail for the reasons I have given, but four of the men concerned were given two full interviews, and the fifth had one interview because he admitted the major charge involved. I hope the House will forgive me if I do not go into the details of the individual cases. It would be improper to do so. I was sorry to hear an hon. Member holding me personally responsible for what he called an act of the greatest injustice, especially since I spoke so frankly to the deputation which came to see me. I can assure him that I am acting with the full knowledge and consent of my right hon. Friend, and although I cannot go into details, I can assure him that I have gone most sympathetically into all these matters.

Before my hon. Friend sits down, may I ask him to answer my two questions about these men? Were these men given written copies of the charges against them, and were they told the evidence on which the charges were founded? That is what I want to know.

The hon. Member asked these questions yesterday about proceedings which took place a long time ago. Therefore, I can only give the preliminary result, which is, so far as I know, that the charges were written in English—the Yugoslav charges—and were read out to the men, and they were not given and did not demand written copies.

11.55 p.m.

The hon. Member says "at last." That is a reflection on the Speaker, and is most improper. The hon. Member should withdraw it at once.

I withdraw the phrase at once. If I may say that I am glad I have caught your eye, and withdraw the other words, I will do so. I do not think I need apologise for speaking on this matter even at this late hour. It is, indeed, a matter of life and death with which we are dealing, and many of us are concerned lest very soon the die will be cast. Not only we, but our constituents who are behind us, are just as certainly concerned that we should speak what we think, and do so without fear or favour. Furthermore, when the situation is tense and difficult as at present, it is, in my view and in the view of many of my hon. Friends, the time when we should speak clearly and fearlessly on these matters Ministers must take great care what they say and guard their language, but at this moment, it is the duty of back benchers to express the views of their constituents, particularly at the moment when we are parting for six weeks.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) indicated, it is rather strange that the Leader of the House or the Foreign Secretary should indicate that we should hold our tongues and not express our views, when the "Daily Herald" and other papers are blazoning forth the kind of scare headlines and the kind of scare-mongering phrases that they do. It would be strange if we should be debarred from making our views known in our small way when these national papers are apparently free to print their scare headlines just as they like. It is our duty to warn the Foreign Secretary and the Government of the extent to which these negotiations have deteriorated, and, indeed, also to let a little fresh air into the councils of the Foreign Office and particularly of the councils of the Military Committee which has been recently sitting in London.

I was very concerned personally at the calling off of the Debate on foreign affairs by the Opposition. I do not grumble that there is probably to be an arrangement whereby the Leader of the Opposition or the Front Bench Members of the Opposition will be kept very closely informed as to the exact trend of affairs in the next six weeks. I know that that is customary, and I am not grumbling at that, but I should grumble very loudly if, with that in mind, we were denied the opportunity of expressing our views. Furthermore, if there is some such arrangement, as I see is probable, that gives the Leader of the Opposition the opportunity not only of listening but also of expressing views, and of exerting his influence on the course of events, many of us will be certainly very concerned as to the kind of influence which will be exerted in that way, bearing in mind his peace-time record, and bearing in mind the terms of his Fulton speech and other pronouncements. It fills us with misgivings, and I must ask the Foreign Secretary to beware of any advice given to him from that quarter.

My misgivings are particularly in regard to two spheres. In speaking of this I, like other hon. Members, speak with due regard to the importance of what we say and with due restraint. One is, of course, Berlin, where there is an extremely difficult situation at the present moment. I am very frequently critical of the attitude and policy of the Government, but I think that in standing firm in Berlin they are quite right. I think that is the only policy. I regret the great deterioration which has taken place over the last two years and I could say a lot in criticism of the Foreign Secretary as to the course of events. I could say a good deal in regard to the wrong progress of events in Germany during the last two years. But at the moment we have to accept the fact that we have this situation in Berlin. While using all possible peaceable endeavours, and particularly the negotiations which are taking place with M. Molotov, I think it would be wrong from every point of view and unfair to the Germans in our part of Berlin, if we were at this time to come out of Berlin.

At the same time I want to say how greatly I regret the dissipation of the very great good will in this country towards Russia immediately at the end of the war. That friendly feeling was very great and widespread, and I am bound to say I greatly regret that, through the difficult action of Russia, that has been very largely dissipated. I do not say it is beyond redemption, but it has been greatly dissipated. I hope this new approach which is being made to M. Molotov will be a broad-based and even a generous approach from our point of view. We have to be imaginative in this matter in the widest degree, not only in making suggestions of a new approach, going back quite rightly to the Potsdam basis, but there are also certain things which Russia obviously needs and needs very badly and certain things we need very badly. I do not think it would be bargaining in the worst sense, or bargaining at all, if we set out to satisfy some of the needs of Russia in return for the satisfaction of our own needs.

For instance, Russia is anxious to take part in the control of the Ruhr industries. We are anxious to have corridors to Berlin and to Vienna. I should see nothing wrong, in fact I should look on it as wise statesmanship, if there could be some mutual arrangement whereby, in return for participation in the control of the Ruhr, Russia would arrange for us to have the corridors we need to both these capitals. I only put it out as a broad suggestion which would be useful and satisfactory to both sides and which might well be put forward. I am quite sure that the hon. Gentlemen on the other side would wish to support any arrangements which were to the mutual advantage.

The other sphere about which we are greatly concerned is the close link-up with the United States at the present time, to which the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) referred considerably in his speech. There are certainly very dangerous tendencies at the moment. They have been increasing for a long time and we see in them very much the influence of the Fulton Speech and the kind of attitude which was behind that well-known speech. We feel very strongly on this side, and I dare say on all sides, that the essential basis of Western European Union should be economic. Certainly other things follow from that. There will have to be a political approach as well, following the economic approach, and certainly there must be defensive arrangements. That was always envisaged.

Indeed, in a Motion which many of us put down, it was clearly stated that there must be economic, political and defensive arrangements. But that is something very different from a full-blooded military alliance. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is the difference?"] My hon. Friend does not understand the difference between defensive arrangements and a full-blooded military pact with a nation across the Atlantic. It is something very different. Again, in the Brussels Treaty there is no provision for that treaty being underwritten by America. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] Because that is not within the provisions; there is not a provision for the treaty to be underwritten by the United States. Indeed, we find that the treaty is referred to, among other things, as a treaty for collective defence, which is something very different from underwriting a full-blooded military alliance with a nation some thousands of miles away across the Atlantic. But that is the direction in which we are slipping, as the hon. Member for Luton indicated, and that is the regrettable step which many of us, on the eve of this six weeks' Recess, fear may be taken. That, in my view, is the danger.

I asked the Foreign Secretary on Monday whether the United States and Canada had agreed to join the permanent committee of Western Union, and on what conditions and arrangements. The Under-Secretary replied: He denied that there was membership of this Military Committee, and undoubtedly that is quite correct technically. But there is a very thin dividing line between participating as non-members, as the right hon. Gentleman indicated, and becoming full members. I, and other hon. Members on this side of the House, fear that during these next six weeks unofficial and non-committal membership, or non-membership, may develop and cross that dangerous dividing line; and it may develop into full membership of that Military Committee. We feel that once that step is taken, it may well be the crucial and dangerous step.

That is particularly why some of us, at this critical stage, desire to make our voices heard with all the strength possible, saying to the Foreign Secretary that while the Americans are in Germany in force, fears that America will not be drawn into any conflagration are groundless. Therefore, these should not be used as a means for bringing them into military partnership, either with Western Union or under the Brussels Treaty. We are at the parting of the ways. If we go ahead with full military partnership, many of us fear that the worst will happen, and we beg and pray the Foreign Secretary to see the danger; to see how we, and the common people of this country, are viewing this matter; and to see that the one act of underwriting Western Union and the Brussels Treaty by a full-blooded military alliance, will undoubtedly be the cause of our heading for disaster.

I wonder if I might make an appeal to the House. The hour is getting late. The Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs has replied, and I have endeavoured to call representatives, as far as I could judge, of every point of view from among those who wanted to talk in what, after all, is the Opposition's time and not the ordinary Members' time. It is difficult now, for any reply to be given, because a statement is going to be made tomorrow by the Foreign Secretary. Therefore, these matters concerning Germany, and so on, cannot be answered at present. We must hear what the Foreign Secretary says tomorrow, and I appeal, shall I say, to the honour of the House, in a way. We do not want to go on talking when nobody can reply, merely to put a point of view and thus become, not a place of assembly for debating, but a place where people make speeches and nothing more. We do not want to become a "talkie-talkie" establishment. It is time, I think, that we came to a decision.

With great deference to your judgment, Mr. Speaker, it is true that the Foreign Secretary is going to deal with the German situation tomorrow, but we do not anticipate that he will deal with the matters raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith) and myself, and to which no reply has been given. Previously, where hon. Members have shown a desire for a reply, it is possible, with the leave of the House, for the Minister to reply again.

The Minister has indicated that he cannot give a reply because the Foreign Secretary may, or may not, deal with these matters tomorrow. He cannot say what his Leader may do, or may not do.

The Question is, "That the Question be now put."

The House proceeded to a Division.

( seated and covered ): May I raise a point of Order, Mr. Speaker? I rose before the Chief Whip moved, "That the Question be now put." The only point of Order was that you, Sir, made an incorrect statement of facts.

There is no point of Order there, and, therefore, I cannot accept it.

Mr. SIMMONS and Mr. RICHARD ADAMS were appointed Tellers for the Ayes, but no Members being willing to act as Tellers for the Noes, Mr. SPEAKER declared that the Ayes had it.

Question put accordingly, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for today.

On a point of Order. May I, with great respect to the statement which you made that you had called all points of view in relation to the last Debate, point out that all the speakers you have called were critical of the Government, and this side of the House is not, generally speaking, critical of the Government on foreign policy.

If the hon. Member wants to raise that, he must put it down on the Order Paper as a Vote of Censure on the Speaker for not having called all the hon. Members who desired to speak. He may not raise it as a point of Order. It is impertinence, not merely to the Chair, but to the House of Commons as a whole.

Industrial Building

12.16 a.m.

I beg to move:

"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Regulations dated 18th June 1948, entitled the Town and Country Planning (Erection of Industrial Buildings) Regulations, 1948 (S.I., 1948, No. 1309), a copy of which was presented on 21st June 1948, be annulled."

In view of the lateness of the hour, I shall be as brief as I can.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. You have censured me for my impertinence in saying that the five hon. Members criticising the foreign policy of the Government did not represent the hon. Members on this side of the House. I wish to state that I had no disrespect to you in making that statement, but merely wished to point out that Members on this side support the foreign policy of the Government, as does the country generally.

That has nothing to do with the Motion before the House. The hon. Member must control himself and not interfere in matters which have nothing to do with the Motion which the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) is now moving. Really, I am surprised at the hon. Member.

The Town and Country Planning Act came into operation on 1st July, the appointed day, and a large number of regulations and statutory instruments have been issued in a steady flow ever since. No one can suggest that those who sit on this side of the House have looked at these regulations in any partisan spirit, but I felt it my duty tonight to put down this Motion for the annulment of this particular regulation. I am disappointed in this regulation which is made, not by the Minister of Town and Country Planning, but by the President of the Board of Trade. This Regulation is made in accordance with Section 14 (4) of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, and in order that the position may be quite clear, may I refer briefly to the situation as it existed before the passing of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947.

The position then, in regard to the erection of an industrial building, was governed by the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945. That Act imposed a duty of notification of the intention to erect an industrial building, when the floor space exceeded an aggregate of 10,000 square feet, to be made to the Board of Trade 60 days before entering into the contract for the erection of the building. Power was given to the Board of Trade, by Section 10 of the 1945 Act, to make regulations exempting any class or description of industrial building from the duty imposed by that Act. As a result of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, as set out in the Ninth Schedule thereof, Sections 9 and 10, which were the operative sections of the Distribution of Industries Act, 1945, have been repealed and in place of that obligation merely to notify the Board of Trade of the intention to erect industrial buildings of these dimensions there are now imposed the much more severe limitations contained in Section 14 of the Town and Country Planning Act. Section 14 (4), of the Town and Country Planning Act in effect makes the giving of planning permission for the erection of an industrial building dependent upon the prior certificate of the Board of Trade.

There is, it is true, exemption in respect of industrial buildings of less than an aggregate floor space of 5,000 square feet, but as hon. Members will appreciate, it is a very small factory indeed which has an aggregate floor space of less than 5,000 square feet, and that minimum requirement of 5,000 square feet is only half the former minimum requirement of 10,000 square feet contained in the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945, which, as I explained, imposes a far less severe restriction upon the erection of industrial buildings than is imposed upon the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947. That is the only limitation upon this requirement of prior certification by the Board of Trade which is specifically imposed by Section 14 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947.

But Section 14 (4, b ) of that Act clearly contemplates some further relaxation in the regulations therein contemplated to be made by the Board of Trade. That subsection says:

The Board of Trade have not in their regulations—Statutory Instrument No. 1309—risen to the opportunity that was given them by Section 14 of the Town & Country Planning Act and they have not taken the sort of action which appears to have been contemplated quite clearly by the words of the Statute. All this regulation does is to proscribe all classes of industrial buildings for the purposes of Section 14 (4) of the Town & Country Planning Act. The meaning of that would appear to be that the Board of Trade are not recognising any exemptions, either by way of area or particular classes of building, from the necessity of prior certification.

I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether this rather skimpy Order is the best that the Board of Trade can do in this important matter. Can he tell the House what consideration has been given by his Department to the possibilities opened up by Section 14 (4) of the 1947 Act before this regulation was drafted in the terms in which it is now laid before the House? Has the imaginative ingenuity of the Board of Trade not been able to visualise cases and areas in which the requirement of prior certification is unnecessary, and therefore onerous and burdensome.

I am sure that the Parliamentary Secretary will have in mind, as will hon. Members, the large number of other consents and requirements that have to be obtained and complied with before a building can be erected. There is still the necessity, even if prior certification is given, of obtaining general planning approval from the local authority. There might be, in appropriate cases, the necessity of obtaining permission in regard to the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act, and there are, of course, still the necessities of obtaining the appropriate licences in respect of materials, and so on, before the erection of the building is actually undertaken. I merely recall that familiar list to point out that it should be in no light spirit that an extra or unnecessary step is added to the already difficult task of getting any erection of industrial building actually set into motion.

As the position now stands, the first requirement is to obtain this prior certification, as it is no good any industrialist seeking to erect an industrial building of more than 5,000 square feet of floor area applying for any other consent until he gets a certificate from the Board of Trade. Has consideration been given to the delays and difficulties that may result from imposing this necessity over all the industrial buildings in this country? There are various other complications to which I could give detailed references, but by reason of the lateness of the hour, and because I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary is seized of the main point, I do not wish to develop my argument further.

I move this Motion in no sort of spirit of hostility and indeed in no very keen spirit of criticism, but with some sense of disappointment that this is the best that the Board of Trade has so far been able to db in this difficult and important question. I stress these words "so far" because it is open to the Parliamentary Secretary to withdraw these regulations and to draft better regulations which will really meet the needs of the community, and of the industrial community in particular, by prescribing areas and sorts of buildings in respect of which it is not necessary to require all this certification. I hope he will give an indication of the policy of his Department in this matter and will be able to say that this is not the last word in regard to the regulations under this Section of the Act.

12.30 a.m.

I beg to second the Motion.

I should like briefly but forcibly to support what my hon. Friend has said on this rather complicated matter. When the Distribution of Industry Act was debated in this respect as a Bill, the Clause was very hotly contested. At that time the figure of 3,000 square feet was withdrawn and subsequently it was raised to 10,000 square feet. Those conditions and requirements have been supplanted by this Section under the Town and Country Planning Act, and I think I am right in saying that owing to the Guillotine there was no proper discussion of this particular provision. Therefore, the only sort of discussion which has taken place on the principle of this Section really took place on the earlier Bill, and there the Government saw fit greatly to reduce their demands and requirements on industry.

There is no appeal from what is provided under this regulation which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) has shown, is unnecessarily hard and does not conform to the obvious intention of the two Acts under consideration. Clearly the intention was not to bother industry or harass it in any unnecessary way, because it says quite clearly: from the necessity of going through this paraphernalia of application.

Is it not the intention with these Measures that the Development Areas should be encouraged? As things stand, can the industrialist be quite sore that he will get the planning permission which he requires? I understand that already in certain areas there are refusals under this regulation. It is quite conceivable that an industrialist who wishes to lay down plant, may make five or six shots, with all the applications and calculations which it might involve, before he hit upon a place, but the Ministry will only grant permission temporarily and there is no sort of guarantee, when the industrialist goes back in a few years' time for permission for an extension in that area, that he will once again get permission.

I want to point out that industry does not go "all out" with its finally-constructed enterprises, but that in nine cases out of ten, an industry will start, as it were, with an instalment and then envisage a future extension of what has already been erected, if its venture has been a success. The industry of the country must look to the President of the Board of Trade for some sort of policy in this matter.

It was thought that this regulation, when it was drafted in conformity with the Section in question, would indicate a policy showing certain areas in which industrialists could set up with that instalment of their enterprise which later on, perhaps, they would extend if all went well. It is the belief of industry that this regulation has been formulated and published without due thought or consideration being given to the matter. We believe it has slipped in, so to speak. It is very easy always to take more powers than you require. The temptation is almost irresistible, as we have seen in many of the Acts passed by this Government. But it is most undesirable to put even another small shackle on the chains from which industry is suffering, merely because the whole situation has not been thought out, and because the President of the Board of Trade, in collaboration no doubt with interested parties, has not been able to formulate a joint policy.

Therefore, I would like to reinforce what my hon. Friend said, that the Minister should take this instrument away, think it over, try to elaborate the original intention of the Act, and show a policy in this matter of planning and extensions to existing enterprises, so that industry may know with a certain amount of security whether it can go ahead with these schemes.

12.36 a.m.

I should like to assure the hon. and gallant Member for Central Glasgow (Colonel Hutchison) that there has been no lack of thought in the Board of Trade about this regulation. On the contrary, we have given a great deal of thought to it. It is a most important subject, and I recognise the responsible way in which the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) and his seconder have dealt with it. I would like to take this opportunity of making a very brief statement about the regulation and our intentions for the future.

As was pointed out by the hon. Member who moved the Motion, Section 14 (4) of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, provides, in effect, that local planning authorities may not deal with applications for planning approval in respect of industrial buildings unless the Board of Trade have given a certificate that the development in question is consistent with the proper distribution of industry. This applies to all new buildings which will have an aggregate floor space of 5,000 square feet or more, and all extensions of existing buildings which have, or will have, by reason of the extension, this aggregate floor space.

As regards the second of these, I would like to say that in practice we shall normally grant a certificate without question provided the extension does not exceed 5,000 square feet. That may be a small point, but it is useful to put it on record. It is true that the application of this Section could be limited by regulations made by the Board of Trade either to certain areas, or to certain classes of industrial buildings, or both. In fact, the regulations we have made prescribe all classes of industrial buildings and exclude no geographical area. It is for that reason that the hon. Member has chosen to pray against the order.

There is one further point I should like to make before I deal with the reasons why we have prescribed all industrial buildings and not made exemptions. It is important that the House should remember that the grant of a certificate by the Board of Trade is nothing more than a prerequisite of planning approval. A certificate is never necessary unless planning approval is necessary. Moreover, there are cases in which planning approval is necessary in which a Board of Trade certificate is not necessary, since under the Act a material change in use constitutes development and therefore requires planning approval whereas our certificate is not required except for the development or the erection, including extension, alteration or re-erection, of a building. That is another small point which, I think, ought to be noticed.

It has been suggested that there are classes of industrial buildings which could be exempted from the requirement to obtain a Board of Trade certificate without detriment to the distribution of industry policy, or that there are areas which could be safely so exempted. We have given thought to this. The only suggestions which have been made to us for the exclusion of particular classes of industries have been found to be impracticable.

But we have no objection in principle to the idea of excluding defined classes of industrial buildings from the operation of the regulations. If the need is shown we shall certainly consider amending the regulations in the light of our experience. If it becomes clear that there are such definable classes of industrial buildings, that is to say, that the definition of industrial building is wider than is needed for our purposes, I would assure both hon. Gentlemen that our minds are not closed on this subject. We are now dealing with something new, and we feel that we should like to have experience of the way the thing works before we finally make up our minds as to how we should carry on.

As to the question of excluding certain geographical areas from the operation of the regulations, there again we shall have to look at the matter in the light of experience. Even in areas where it is proved that the certificate is never used, it is essential for the purposes of record and research that the Board of Trade should be informed of new industrial projects. Since Section 9 of the Distribution of Industry Act, which provided for notification, has now been replaced by this Section 14 of the Town and Country Planning Act, we have no means of securing this information except through our powers under Section 14 of the Town and Country Planning Act.

In any case if we wanted to define these geographical areas for this purpose, it would be extremely difficult, and we should have probably to make frequent alterations. There are at the present time parts even of Development Areas in which it is hardly desirable that we should establish new industries. I could give details of that if it were thought necessary. We feel that it would be much more confusing to the industrialist to try to define these areas with frequent alterations than to require him to obtain a certificate before he goes ahead, provided always that he is not confronted with too many forms and difficulties in obtaining a certificate.

That brings me to the procedure. We shall do our best to make this as simple as we possibly can. The industrialist will be required to complete only a simple form, and will be told whether or not it will be possible to grant the certificate for building within the area of his choice before going to the trouble of selecting a site, preparing plans, and so on. But to satisfy the requirements of the Act, the Board must see the actual application to the local authority before the certificate is formally issued.

I repeat that we are here more or less experimenting with something quite new. We feel that at this particular moment we cannot, in view of our lack of experience of operating this particular instrument, give exemptions either in respect of particular areas or in respect of particular industries. But I do give the House the assurance that we shall watch very carefully the way this thing goes on, and if we find it possible to exempt particular industries or particular areas, there will be no hesitation on our part in doing so. For the moment, however, we feel that only the first course is proper. In view of the statement I have made, I hope that hon. Members will not press the case they have made against the order.

For myself, and on behalf of my hon. and gallant Friend, I thank the hon. Gentleman for the reasoned and temperate answer he has given to the case we have put forward. I think we can accept his invitation, in view of what he said about keeping an open mind, not to press this matter tonight. There is one point about which I would like a little more assurance; that is, in regard to the expected time factor in these applications for certification. In regard to applications for town planning permission, there is a two-month period within which the local planning authority must give its decision. If it does not give a decision within two months, it is deemed to be refused; but the applicant has the right of appeal.

Neither of these two provisions appears in regard to the Board of Trade certificate. There is no time limit placed either by the Act or by regulation, nor is there any right of appeal in the events of refusal. That, of course, makes it the more necessary that there should be a prompt and thorough, and, indeed, a sympathetic investigation of the applications put forward. I would like to leave that thought very prominently in the mind of the Parliamentary Secretary, because I think he will appreciate that perhaps a little more thought could be given to that important aspect of a matter which affects all the industrial undertakings of this country.

I have no hesitation at all in assuring the hon. Member that I will carry that thought away with me and look into it with a view to seeing that anything that can be done will be done to ensure that there is no undue delay.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Dry Batteries (Purchase Tax)

Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Simmons. ]

12.47 a.m.

I apologise for keeping the House up at this late hour. Oddly enough, every time I raise this subject, it always happens to be in the early hours of the morning. I wish that were not the case. I wish to raise the question of the effect on rural areas of the Purchase Tax on high tension dry batteries for radio sets. I should like to refresh the Minister's mind with the history of this case. In June, 1947, I raised the question of reducing the Purchase Tax on dry batteries. At that time the late Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that he could not afford the cost. He said he did not agree the matter was of that degree of importance. After that, in December of last year, the question was raised again. The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) argued that a clean sweep of this tax should be made. The argument then went on about whether the reduction could take place and towards the close of the Debate the learned Solicitor-General stated:

On 8th June, 1948, this Amendment was called again, with another Amendment about the reduction of Purchase Tax on radio sets. Naturally, and especially as the hour was 4.20 a.m., the spotlight throughout the Debate was on the major question. At the end of the Debate, I put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer about high tension batteries. Unfortunately, like all Chancellors of the Exchequer, the present Chancellor nodded his head from left to right. Whether all Chancellors of the Exchequer suffer from high blood pressure I do not know, but it is difficult to get them to nod their heads in the way one may wish. So there was only one way in which I could raise the matter again during this Session, and that was on the Adjournment Motion, as the tax can be reduced by regulation and without the need for legislation.

I only want to put this last point before I come to the substance of my argument. During the Report stage of the Finance Bill, Mr. Speaker in his wisdom did not select this Amendment for discussion. But I would remind the House that 45 Members attached their names to it. What is the reason for seeking to abolish the Purchase Tax on these batteries? I personally believe that it is a glaring example of Purchase Tax wrongly applied. The Association of Radio and Television Retailers has made representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer without any success. The position is that when anyone at any time buys a radio set, it bears Purchase Tax. But thereafter there is a difference, because where there is mains electricity—

On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. May I have your guidance on whether this is a matter which can properly be discusssed on the Adjournment, or is the hon. Member not debating a subject which is a matter for legislation.

This is a matter which can properly be debated. I gather that alteration of Purchase Tax can be made by order, and does not require legislation.

I am obliged to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. The hon. and gallant Member evidently was not listening to my speech for I had just mentioned that point. The point I was making was that the radio set with mains electricity does not bear further Purchase Tax after it is originally bought. But with the radio set which does not feed from the mains, but from a dry battery, extra Purchase Tax is paid every time the battery is replaced. Over and above that, when the dry battery has to be replaced, which normally is necessary about every two or three months, the actual cost itself, without Purchase Tax, is much heavier.

Who are the people who have to use them? First, they are those in the wide agricultural areas which have not got electricity supplies. That is, the whole of the rural parts of our countryside. It also affects people in those districts other than the agriculturists. There are the great number of the china clay workers, as well as the tin miners of Cornwall. Then there are the people in the Royal Dockyard at Devonport who happen to live in the rural areas of my Division. I think that this is a scandalous state of affairs. It is no good the Minister saying, "I have great sympathy with you, but let us leave this matter until the next Budget." The winter is before us, and in a great portion of the agricultural areas there are no evening newspapers; they have no Sunday newspapers. At the same time, Ministers broadcast and wish to be heard over the wireless; and should be heard. We have also the storm-swept islands around our coasts. There are parts where there is no chance of getting electricity, and yet there is this unfair burden of tax on those people who have this type of radio, compared with those who are fortunate enough to have electricity.

I hope that the Minister will not tonight put certain well worn arguments. I hope he will not say that the Finance Bill has been passed and that the Government cannot do anything about it. If he says that, I would answer that there are certain goods that have had a decrease of Purchase Tax by virtue of an order, since the Budget. I hope the Economic Secretary will not say that if he does this in certain cases, the Government will have to do it in other cases, because that was the argument used by the Solicitor-General and contradicted by the present Chancellor. I hope he will not mention the costs because that would be a rather feeble argument. When the food subsidies have risen from £400 million to £470 million, he cannot say that the question of cost comes into it.

He cannot use the argument of "fair shares for all" because this is not a case of "fair shares for all." This is a burden and a hurt for a certain section of our community generally. At all times in this House we ought to show that we really mean something when we say it; and when we talk of increased food production, we should think of these people in the countryside. Here is a chance for the Chancellor to do something about it. I do not want to delay the House, but I would read a few lines of a letter which I received from one of my constituents:

12.58 a.m.

I should like to support what has been put to the House by my hon. Friend. To produce our food, many of our people have to live in remote areas where it is impossible to get newspapers except with difficulty, and where it is impossible to get to theatres and cinemas or any other form of entertainment at all. These people are reduced, therefore, to having their entertainment from the wireless, and to getting their news, very largely, from the same source. I do hope that the Economic Secretary will view this Adjournment Debate with sympathy because—to give one reason.only—this is not a matter of much money. On the other hand, it means a great deal to those people, many of whom are old age pensioners, who have time and time again had to pay Purchase Tax on their wireless batteries; and I hope that we may have some concession this evening.

12.59 a.m.

I sympathise with the hon. Gentleman on his point about the hour of the night at which we always discuss Purchase Tax. I know also that he feels strongly about this, as does his hon. Friend who supported him. He has made a case which would certainly incline us to reduce the tax if we could reduce it at once; but, it is a case, also, which we shall bear in mind when the time comes to frame the new Budget proposals for next year. The hon. Gentleman threatened me in advance what he would do if I used certain arguments. I am afraid I must make them in spite of that threat. Although power does exist to make changes by order, the Government have no intention of making frequent changes in the rates of Purchase Tax during the course of the year. To do so would be as unsettling to industry as it would be to the Revenue. In addition, we did rearrange the whole Schedule as the House wished us to do, and this would be a bad time to start making individual changes of this kind. Changes by order might be used occasionally to correct some glaring anomaly in definition or classification or if some major change in economic policy became necessary between one Finance Bill and another.

Is not this a question of a major change in economic policy as mentioned in the White Paper, indeed a question of urgent priority for food production?

Major economic policy in the last Budget was to have a Budget surplus which would have a disinflationary effect, and there has been no change in our policy in that regard. Apart from these two reasons for individual changes, we do not think it would be wise to make changes in the rates at an arbitrary period during the course of the financial year.

Both hon. Members argued that as this tax falls on the maintenance of the wireless set, it was felt by the country dweller. The Government have already recognised the particular and peculiar position of the country dweller in a number of ways. Thus, while purchase tax remained at 33⅓ per cent, almost continuously, the rate for radio sets was raised to 66⅔ per cent. It is true that we have reduced the rates on radio sets to 33⅓ per cent.; this in itself will be some relief to the rural purchaser as well as to other purchasers because he has to buy sets as well as batteries. Hon. Members will also recall that we have assisted the country dweller by very special reliefs in the matter of Entertainment Duty, whether we have discriminated against the town dweller in his interest. We gave exemption from Purchase Tax on oil lamps mainly to help rural areas. That was another valuable concession.

I know the hon. Gentleman still thinks this does not go far enough and wants us to add a further concession by exempting batteries from the tax altogether. Naturally, we should all wish to do that; but unfortunately it is necessary to raise revenue and to maintain a large Budget surplus this year, and this must be considered in making what may otherwise be desirable reductions in Purchase Tax on other commodities. The hon. Member said that when the food subsidies were costing £400 millions a year it was really unnecessary to go on raising £500,000 by this tax. There were two fallacies in his argument. First, the figure of revenue raised by Purchase Tax on these articles is larger than half-a-million.

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not wish to misrepresent me. My argument was that in a question of a figure of £400 million rising to £470 million, £1 million would not be such a large matter.

Unfortunately, it is not £1 million but about £2 million. If expenditure rises from £400 million it is all the more necessary to raise revenue to set against it.

I am afraid, therefore, for the reasons which I have stated, we cannot at this stage single out one or two commodities among the many for relief of Purchase Tax. Before we introduce another Finance Bill we shall certainly bear in mind the arguments which both hon. Members have used tonight as we shall also bear in mind a number of other commodities subject to Purchase Tax.

Would my hon. Friend dispel the inference which can be drawn from both speakers opposite that almost the whole of the agricultural population are old-age pensioners?

Nonsense; we did not say that.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Seven Minutes past One o'Clock a.m.