asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what decision he has made regarding the issue of petrol to local authority representatives as the result of conversations he has held with the County Councils Association.

Discussions are still taking place.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that very considerable hardship is being imposed upon local authority representatives, particularly those of county councils and rural district councils, and, in view of the great length of time which has already elapsed, will he take steps to see that some decision is given at a reasonably early date?

I am most anxious that a decision should be reached on this subject, but it has been difficult to arrange meetings during the holiday period.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what steps are being taken to reduce the amount of petrol used by Government Departments.

As my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary informed the House on 1st July, in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Mr. Sharp), arrangements have been made to treat Government Departments in the same way as certain large business firms, local authorities and other bodies which receive bulk allowances of petrol. Assessments for Government Departments are now fixed by my Ministry and no increase above the assessment is permitted unless the Department concerned has satisfied a Committee under the chairmanship of my Parliamentary Secretary that this is essential. These arrangements have retrospective effect from 1st April and have met with the approval of the Select Committee on Estimates.

Why is it that the Minister had not attempted any specific action until the report of the Select Committee on Estimates had been published in the Press; I understood his colleague to say that some definite instructions limiting the amount of petrol by percentage means had now been given?

The decision to change the arrangement was made before the Select Committee had published its Report and, as a matter of fact, before the Select Committee had even made these proposals. As regards the percentage reduction, it is only fair to the Civil Service to point out that the issues of E coupons to Government Departments in the first and second quarters of this year show a reduction of 7 and 10 per cent., respectively, on the previous year.

Could the right hon. Gentleman explain what he means by the retrospective effect of this arrangement? Does it mean that some of the Government Departments still have outstanding petrol which was issued to them last April?

No. It merely means that the period of the allocation is for the year from 1st April.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power how much petrol has been obtained on forged coupons since 1st June and how this compares with the corresponding period for 1947 and 1946.

No exact estimate can be made, but I am satisfied that the amount of petrol obtained through forged coupons did not exceed 20 tons a week at the beginning of June last and has since decreased considerably as a result of the action taken. Comparable figures for 1946 and 1947 are not available.

Can the Minister give an indication how many gallons there are in 20 tons?

There are 300 gallons in a ton.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether, in view of the fact that a number of Regional Petroleum officers throughout the country were unable to deal with late applications by 1st September for agricultural petrol, and of the need for harvesting and increased food production, he will consider derationing the red petrol for agricultural purposes forthwith.

No, Sir. It would not be practicable to deration red petrol for agricultural purposes only, and I have come to the conclusion with regret that its general derationing would inevitably be accompanied by a substantial increase in consumption which we cannot afford.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a tremendous waste of man-hours in filling up form R.S.M.6 by farmers when they are very short-handed, and does he not realise that, owing to the time spent in filling up forms, there is a loss of food production, and will he take steps to have this form abolished?

I promised that I would consider the matter as soon as we saw what was the effect of red petrol. I have done that, and have consulted my Advisory Committee, and they are satisfied that we should not de-ration red petrol. The form has only to be filled up twice a year, and there is no evidence that it causes undue hardship to farmers.

Is it not a fact that this last harvest would have been easier to get in if farmers had not to bother about these forms, and do not they want more food and less forms?

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what machinery exists for considering appeals for more petrol by dissatisfied farmers.

Appeals by farmers are dealt with by a specially trained staff and, where necessary, are referred to the county agricultural executive committee for advice. Consultation also takes place between the regional petroleum officers and county secretaries of the National Farmers Union.

Is the Minister aware that owing to the widespread cut in white petrol there are a great many dissatisfied farmers, and that, although many had been getting too much before, those struggling along on just a little are now extremely hard hit?

I am afraid that the farmers are not the only people dissatisfied with their allocation of white petrol, but I am sure that they appreciate the benefit to the country to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer recently referred.

The Minister promised the farmers that they would not go short of petrol because of the necessity of producing food, but now he is letting them down.

I was referring to white petrol; we use red petrol for producing food.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power how many prosecutions there have been for illegal use of petrol since the new regulations came into force; and how many have been successful to the latest available date.

The hon. Member is no doubt referring to prosecutions under the Motor Spirit (Regulation) Act, 1948. Ten cases have been taken up to 15th September, all of which were successful

Does not the fact that:here have been very few successful prosecutions prove that the whole thing has been a farce, and does it not also show. by imposing regulations which have no real force, the right hon. Gentleman is Compelling private people to become criminals?

Unlike the hon. Member, I am glad there have not been more prosecutions, and I am satisfied that the deterrent effect of the Act has been very considerable.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power the petrol consumption in the months of July and August; and how far the measures designed to stop the illegal use of petrol have fulfilled expectations.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will make a statement regarding the standard petrol ration, and to what extent he is satisfied with the present system of petrol rationing.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what the amount of the standard petrol ration is to be after the current rationing period ends in November.

Deliveries of motor spirit into consumption in July and August averaged 92,000 tons and 87,000 tons a week respectively. I am satisfied that the measures taken to stop the black market in petrol are effective, but I cannot yet give any reliable estimate of the amount saved, because of the variations in consumption from month to month, which arise partly from the flexibility allowed to motorists in using the standard ration. I hope to be able to make a statement about the future of the standard ration in about a month.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether, in the months which he has given, which are likely to be the heavy consumption months of standard petrol, the figures of consumption so far are below those anticipated?

I would prefer not to go into details at this stage, but I will say that I am satisfied that the abolition of the black market has certainly provided sufficient petrol to supply the standard ration.

In regard to Question No. 21, can the Minister consider, when he is determining the winter ration, making a larger standard ration to owners of cars who live in rural areas?

I would propose, before coming to any conclusion, to consult the Advisory Committee which I have set up.

In view of the rearmament programme, can the Minister tell us whether, during the next year, there will be any petrol for the civilian population?

The needs of defence will have to be considered in connection with this matter.

Can the Minister say definitely whether he will be able to give some basic petrol after November?

I should prefer not to make any statement on the matter at the moment.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will reconsider the application of Mr. J. Clowes, 153, Crompton Road, Macclesfield, for an increased petrol allowance, details of which have already been sent to him, together with a medical certificate supporting his application; and if he is aware that there is no public transport available from Crewe, where Mr. Clowes works, to Macclesfield when he finishes work at 10.30 p.m.

Yes, Sir, I am reconsidering this case, and will write to the hon. and gallant Member.

As Mr. Clowes has now been waiting several months, will the right hon. Gentleman instruct the Manchester office to consider these matters more sympathetically? It is quite clear that a sick man such as Mr. Clowes could not get home from work without petrol.

I could not agree that the case is as straightforward as that, but I will write to the hon. and gallant Gentleman in a day or two.

Does the Minister realise that the Manchester office is particularly difficult now, and far harder than other regions?

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power why a rubber planter on leave in this country from Malaya can obtain a petrol allowance for a car lent to him by a near relative but not one lent by a more distant relative or a friend; and on what principle this differentiation is made.

Supplementary allowances are normally made available only for motor vehicles owned by the applicant. In the case of persons on leave from overseas, and as a special concession, allowances are also made for motor vehicles owned by close relatives. I regret that I cannot extend this concession.

Why should there be this differentiation? Does the Minister propose to publish a table of consanguinity such as there is at the back of the Prayer Book, and say that only near relations can loan a car? What is the sense of it?

It need not be such a long table as the hon. Gentleman suggests, but one must draw the line somewhere. It seems reasonable to draw the line round the family.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will consider granting an additional petrol allowance for holiday purposes to those people who have not applied for the allowance of £35 for the purpose of travelling abroad for pleasure.

No, Sir.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider referring this suggestion to his Advisory Committee, because, surely, it is not beyond the wit of man, or his Advisory Committee, to devise a scheme on these lines?

No doubt when the Advisory Committee are consulted on this matter they will bear in mind the suggestion of the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware that in order to cope with the great demand for taxis during the holiday season in Brighton, the Streamline Cabs have been forced to use up almost all their allocation of petrol until next December; and whether he will consider granting a supplementary allowance especially for use to and from the railway station.

The answer to both parts of the Question is "No, Sir."

Does the Minister realise that during this particular Summer season in Brighton we have had particularly rainy weather; and in planning for the use of petrol during that period can he say whether that fact was taken into consideration because, as a result of it, far more people have been using taxis to and from the railway station than normally?

I am afraid it is not possible to fix the allocation of petrol for taxicabs according to the weather.

But, surely, when this planning takes place, the meteorological question enters into it?

We are more modest than the hon. Member suggests; we do not claim to anticipate the weather.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he is aware that as a result of the 10 per cent. cut in the allocation of petrol to private hire services, they are now getting on the average only two gallons a day as compared with five gallons a day granted for use by public hire vehicles; and, as private hire service can often be obtained at night when no public hire vehicle is available and the proprietors need petrol as a means of livelihood and not for pleasure, will he agree to the restoration of this 10 per cent. in their allocation.

No, Sir. The average allowance for private hire car services is 2¼ gallons a day compared with three gallons a day for provincial taxis and 4½ gallons a day for London taxis. The 10 per cent. cut was applied to operators of taxis and other recipients of supplementary allowances, as well as to operators of private hire car services. I have no reason to think that it bears more hardly on the latter than on other classes, and I am not prepared to restore it.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that many ex-Service men put their gratuities into businesses of this kind and were just able to carry on with the petrol made available to them before the cut, but now that the cut has taken place some of them are going out of business?

In this matter I cannot accept the suggestion that we should make any distinction of the kind suggested by my hon. Friend.

Is the right hon. Gentleman taking any interest at all in the ordinary citizen who has to use these cars, because, as far as one can see, all the petrol was used up in the summer, and they are going to be in a frightful position in the winter?

There is no reason to believe that the ordinary citizen suffers such grave hardship, as the hon. Member seems to suggest. from lack of hire car facilities.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware that the coal described as Alvecote Bakers Nuts, which is being supplied to consumers in St. Neots and district, Hunts, is useless for domestic consumption; and whether he will take steps to ensure that such coal is not supplied to consumers in future, and is replaced by fuel of good quality.

I agree that Alvecote coal is of low quality but a small proportion must continue to be included in the house coal allocation in view of the need to export some of the better grades of house coal. Arrangements have made to reduce the proportion of this coal going to St. Neots and district and to substitute more suitable grades.

Is the Minister aware that this lowering of standards was never tolerated under private enterprise and, bearing in mind that so many complaints about the quality of coal have been made since nationalisation, is it not about time that the quality was improved?

The hon. Member appears to have forgotten that under private enterprise there was a very large number of unemployed miners and that it was most difficult to sell the coal at that time; but, of course, continuous efforts are being made to improve quality.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what steps he is taking under the Trade Agreement to ensure that the 870,000 tons a year of coal to be exported to Denmark shall be of good quality and free from incombustible matter.

I would refer the hon. Member to pages 58–63 of the Annual Report of the National Coal Board for the year 1947, and would add that there have been no complaints about the quality of coal supplied to Denmark.

Does not the Minister know that my information is that there have been complaints, and is he aware that the removal of competition compels domestic and foreign consumers to take what is available, and that this is very harmful to our export trade?

There is no evidence of any complaints from Denmark on this matter, and the rest of the Question, therefore, does not arise.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power in how many contracts for the working of opencast coal has it been stipulated by his Department as a condition that the successful contractors must purchase from or through his Department or the Ministry of Supply mechanical excavators imported from America.

No such stipulation has actually been included in any contract, but, in about 40 cases during the last 12 months, tenders were invited on the understanding that the successful tenderer would purchase excavating plant, usually American, which has been set aside for the site concerned.

Does not my right hon. Friend realise that there is very little difference in his answer from the views expressed in the Question? Is he aware that there are written contracts where this is stipulated, and that contractors have to order a lot more machinery, and waste hard-earned dollars in purchasing American machinery which is not required, in order to cover up a mistake by his Department?

There is no question of a mistake in my Department. The matter has been carefully considered, and we have come to the conclusion that the only way to ensure the most economical use of the machinery available is to insist on particular machines being used.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that contractors are forced to buy machinery which they have got already, and to purchase new machines from America, and does he not think that such a stipulation in a contract is highly immoral?

I do not think it is immoral at all. We have had no complaints whatever from the contractors.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he is aware that the pit pony "Ned" in the Bedlington Colliery has developed illness and that a notice has been placed over his stall forbidding any one to use him for any purpose; what is the nature of the complaint; what was the cause; and whether he will permit another veterinary surgeon other than his own official to examine him.

I am aware that the pony "Ned" was recently found to be suffering from a sore back and was withdrawn from work. Pending his removal to the surface for treatment, the usual notice was placed above his stall. I am informed that the most probable cause of the pony's condition is some ill-adjustment of the harness.

The pony is being treated under the supervision of the National Coal Board's consulting veterinary surgeon. He has also been examined by His Majesty's Inspector of Horses in Mines, who reports that, apart from his sore back, the pony is in very good condition. As the inflammation is responding to treatment, I can see no good reason for an examination by another veterinary surgeon.

As this pony has since been removed from the colliery entirely and is now on the surface, will the Minister allow another veterinary surgeon to examine him, because the reasons of which I have been informed are not those which have been given to him?

I have already explained that this pony has been brought to the surface. As to a further examination, it might be possible, but personally, I do not think it is in the least necessary.

Will the Minister give permission for this to be done?

With a view to raising this unfortunate quadruped's morale, can the Minister arrange to call him "Nye"?

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power the reason for the decline of house coal stocks in the Spilsby district of Lincolnshire; and what steps he is taking to restore supplies to prevent hardship during the wintertime in this area.

Had coal merchants in the Spilsby district taken their full allocation of opencast coal, the stocks in that area would have been at a satisfactory level. It is hoped, however, to restore the stock position in the next few weeks by sending to Spilsby a part of the coal which is being switched from London to the North.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will made a statement as to the circumstances under which he dismissed Mr. E. G. Phillips, of the North Midland Fuel Efficiency Committee.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power in what circumstances Mr. E. G. Phillips, O.B.E., was called upon to resign the chairmanship of the North Midland Fuel Efficiency Committee.

The functions of Regional Fuel Efficiency Committees, as was made clear in the revised terms of reference given to them last February, are advisory. Their members are invited to give my Department expert advice on the technical problems of fuel utilisation, but not to undertake executive action in individual cases. I am certain that failure to maintain this distinction might gravely prejudice the work of the Ministry on fuel efficiency.

Unfortunately, it recently became clear that there was fundamental disagreement between Mr. Phillips and myself on this point, and in particular as to what action he could appropriately take in his capacity as Chairman of an advisory committee. In these circumstances, much as I regretted losing Mr. Phillips' services, I felt that I could not agree to his continuing to occupy the position of Chairman of the North Midland Fuel Efficiency Committee.

Is it not a fact that the Minister has broken a contract with Mr. Phillips, and is there no appeal by Mr. Phillips against these Hitlerian methods?

The answer to both questions is in the negative.

May I give notice that I will raise this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment as soon as possible?

rose —

The hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot now ask his supplementary question.

May I withdraw that notice?

No.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will make a statement about the electricity supply this winter for the domestic consumer.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hen. Friend the Minister of Labour to my hon. Friend the Member for Hulme (Mr. Lee) on the 8th July, and to my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd) on 30th July, to which, at present, I have nothing to add.

In view of the great obscurity of that answer, could the Minister make it clear whether he is going to provide enough electricity for the cold winter in view of the fact that we have had cuts in the supply when the temperature has been above 50 degrees?

I think the House generally is aware that we face a difficult problem of the gap between demand and generating capacity this winter. The cuts which have occurred during the summer are, of course, due partly to the exceptionally cold summer and, partly, to the fact that much plant is withdrawn from use at that time.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will publish the results of the investigation undertaken in connection with the pledge given that the Bankside Power Station project would not be proceeded with if the oil fuel burned there was found to emit fumes harmful to nearby buildings.

Yes, Sir. I will inform the House of the results of the tests, but they will not be available until next spring.

May we take it that the Dean of St. Paul's, or his representative, who is very much interested in this because of the possible effects of fumes on the fabric of the Cathedral, will be able to acquaint himself at firsthand with the results of these investigations?

I see no objection to that.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will make a statement regarding the progress so far made in establishing a new power station at Bankside.

One pilot plant has been completed and is in commission, and the other should be finished by the end of next month. Work is continuing on the foundations of the main generating station.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has any statement to make with regard to the case of Dr. Dering.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department on what grounds Dr. Wladislaw Dering has been released from British custody; and why, in view of the fact that he is on the list of war criminals in Czechoslovakia, Poland and France, he has not been handed over to one of those countries for proper trial.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why Dr. Wladislaw Dering was released from custody after His Majesty's Government had previously declared themselves satisfied that a prima facie case had been established against this man that as an assistant Medical Officer in charge of the Oswiecim concentration camp, he was responsible for the segregation and collection of Allied personnel for destruction in the gas chambers, and that in addition he participated in experiments on living human beings.

The mutual agreement between the Governments of the United Nations to which His Majesty's Government became a party in March, 1945, provided for the surrender of persons found in their respective territories for trial as war criminals whenever a prima facie case should be established. When information was received of the allegations made against Dr. Dering, he was detained in custody with a view to his deportation should such a case be established. From the information available in May last, it appeared that a prima facie case had been made out, but, subsequently, it was found that evidence which had been relied upon was based on mistaken identity, and, after a further review of all the available information, the Government were unable to hold that there was sufficient evidence to support a prima facie case. In these circumstances the deportation of Dr. Dering for trial could not be justified. The foreign Governments were so informed, and Dr. Dering was released from custody.

Is it the fact that the Polish Government were asked to submit evidence, that they did submit an affidavit by a man who deposed that Dering had actually committed an atrocity on him, that Dering's extradition was actually ordered, and that then, on representations, the man who had signed that affidavit was brought over here and said that Dering was not the man at all, and had committed no atrocity? In these circumstances, will the Home Secretary undertake that, in future, there will be no extraditions without the man to be extradited being confronted with the person who is said to give evidence against him?

I took the very greatest possible care with this case. I submitted the evidence to two eminent lawyers who are Members of this House. They differed in the first place—[ Laughter .]—it is no doubt very amusing to the House, but it is very embarrassing to a layman who has to make up his mind when two men, for whose legal opinions he has a great respect, differ. Then further evidence was submitted which included a statement by a particular man—the first time that such a statement had been made—that he, in fact, had been castrated by this particular doctor. On that, I was advised that a prima facie case had been made out. The representatives of Dr. Dering then placed further evidence in front of me, and, on that, I determined to see if I could get the man who had made this definite statement into this country so that his evidence could be tested. He came, and an identification parade was arranged, and he asserted that the person who operated on him was not on the parade. His evidence was then heard by the chief magistrate for the Metropolis, and I was advised on that that no prima facie case had been established by this particular witness. I think that in a very difficult case I did my utmost to secure that British standards of justice should be applied.

Could I ask a question on one other point? Is it a fact that in this case this man was taken into custody on the allegation being made and not on the production of a prima facie case? Is it the practice, and will it be the practice in future, to take a person into custody on the mere statement that an allegation has been made? Would it not be better to wait until a prima facie case is made out?

No, Sir. The arrangement made between the foreign Governments was that where these allegations were made the persons would be detained so that if a prima facie case was established they could be handed over. We were gravely handicapped in this case by the length of time which was taken by the foreign Governments in producing the evidence on which they were going finally to ask for the extradition to take place.

Is the Home Secretary suggesting that the man who has been held in custody in this country for all this time is not Dr. Dering? If that is the case, then, of course, the whole suggestion falls to the ground, but is that the case? Is it not the fact that this man is Dr. Dering; is he not the man who was a surgeon at Oswiecim Camp, and is there not abundant evidence against him in addition to this particular case?

I have no doubt that the man in question was Dr. Dering. There were statements made at second hand that this man had performed these operations. The only case where a man came forward and said, "This is the man and if I am confronted with him I can recognise him" was the case to which I have alluded. In that case, when the man saw a line of men he asserted that Dering was not there, and later when Dering was the only man in the court he asserted that he was not the man who had operated on him.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that those of us who saw him in connection with this case were most impressed by the meticulous care and impartiality which he showed?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those who have studied this question realise the difficulty he had, and think that in the care which he has taken he has acted in the very best traditions of his Department? Having said that, may I also ask him whether he is aware that there is widespread agreement with the view expressed in the first supplementary of the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget)?

These matters give me the greatest concern, and I can assure the House that if there should be another case I shall act with the most scrupulous care and I shall have learned something from this case.

Mr. Lewis.

On a point of Order. May I ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker? Is it in the traditions of this House and in accordance with the courtesy between hon. Members for one hon. Member to put down a very detailed Question about another hon. Member's constituency without so informing him?

Usually inside a party one always does it. It is always desirable to inform the hon. Member concerned that such a Question is going to be put down, but there is nothing definite about it.

Might I explain that there were connections between my own constituency and this particular matter, which was drawn to my attention during the Recess and, therefore, there was no opportunity before the Question was put down for me to contact the hon. and gallant Member for Stockport (Wing-Commander Hulbert).

I have made inquiries and am informed that on one occasion, in consequence of complaints made from time to time by individual justices that the noise in this court was making it difficult to hear cases, a police officer was stationed at the door of the court and stopped people going in and out whilst the hearing of a case was actually in progress. I understand that the justices have decided that this arrangement should not be continued.

Is it not a fact that this police officer was placed at the door of the court on the specific instruction of the Chief Constable who did not consult the magistrates? Is it not further a fact that the magistrates expressed their resentment at this behaviour on the part of the Chief Constable? Will my right hon. Friend undertake that in future he will give instructions that established court practice, whereby members of the Press and of the public are entitled to go in and out of courts of summary jurisdiction and other courts, will not be violated?

I think it is desirable that courts should be conducted in a seemly manner. If people drift in and out of court and about court while cases are in progress, it may make it difficult for the case to be properly conducted. The magistrates had expressed a view with regard to the noise in this court, and the Chief Constable thought he had received a hint as to what should happen. He carried out what he thought were the wishes of the bench, but they subsequently came to the conclusion that it was not necessary for the steps which he had taken to be taken.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that this Chief Constable, who is an able officer, was acting in the best interests of the court and, as he believed, in accordance with the direction of the justices?

I do not think I have anything to add to my last answer.

is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the constituents of Stockport are quite satisfied with their two Members without the intervention of the hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. J. Lewis)?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the fact that county councils and county boroughs are fire authorities, he will consider introducing legislation to make them also fire prevention authorities.

The functions of district councils relating to fire prevention were expressly preserved by the proviso to Section 4 of the Fire Services Act, 1947, and, as at present advised, I do not think that any amendment of that Section is needed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that under the present arrangement fire officers are experiencing considerable difficulty, particularly in large areas of heathland which occasion a good deal of danger to forestry and to dwelling houses? Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly look into the matter again to see whether under the present arrangement fire officers are enabled to see that these dangerous places are dealt with, quite apart from merely giving advice?

I hope that if there are particular difficulties all the authorities concerned will meet together with the fire authority to discuss the subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are large areas of commons and heathland, as my hon. and gallant Friend says, where fires are constantly breaking out and where there is no fire prevention service? From the point of view of saving unnecessary labour in the fire brigades and preserving the beauty of our national assets, could not some fire prevention service be instituted?

The fire service authority, namely, the county council, has its duties; so have the district councils. They should co-operate to ensure that as little damage as possible is done.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many police officers were recruited between the passing of the Police Act, 1919, and the appointed day in August, 1921; of these, how many are still serving, and how many retired at the end of 25 years' service; what pension did these latter receive; for what term these men were recruited; and under what statutory authority.

I assume that the hon. Member has in mind the police officers recruited between 1st July, 1919, and 28th August, 1921. During this period 6,043 police officers joined the Metropolitan police force; of these, 738 are still serving, and 932 retired with a pension of half pay, after completing 25 years' service but before completing 26 years No figures are available for other police forces. The conditions under which the men served were governed by the Police Regulations and the police pensions enactments in force from time to time, and these did not prescribe any definite term of service.

Is it not a fact that these particular police officers were recruited under Statutes prior to 1919 because the appointed day had not arrived and might they not, therefore, have thought with justice that they were subject to the older rules which would have given them a three-quarters pension at the end of 25 years' service and not a half pension?

This subject has been brought to my notice by the Police Federation on several occasions since I have been in office. These men were enlisted and it was stated, when they were enlisted, that the final terms had not been arranged. What happened was that while the Police Act of 1921 was going through this House an Amendment was made in it which, in fact, affected these men and which has given them some sense of grievance ever since. I have tried my very utmost to find a way to remedy it, but I have been unable to find one.

Were they not, in fact, recruited while the Amendment was going through this House and, therefore, under the previous Statutes?

They were warned in the document under which they were recruited that in this respect their terms had not been settled.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many metropolitan taxicabs have been licensed for service during the last 12 months; and how many it is expected will be licensed in the ensuing 12 months.

Six thousand two hundred and twenty-four for the year ending 31st August, 1948, and probably not many more in the next 12 months.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what regulations he is making due to the conditions arising out of the Representation of the People Act, 1948, as to the approximate number of electors to be allocated to each polling district in rural areas.

None, Sir. The rules for dividing a constituency into polling districts are laid down by Section 7 of the Act and I have no power to add to them.

If an election should be held during very bad weather, with the limitation on cars conveying people to the polls, would the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter to see if it could be made easier for all parties to get their constituents to the poll to vote on that occasion?

Section 7 of the Act has been designed with that object in view.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the rule of the Prison Commissioners that prisoners' notebooks other than those issued for educational purposes must not be taken away on discharge will prevent the publication of any book written in gaol; and whether he will modify the rule so as to allow original compositions to be taken away subject to censorship.

The question whether the rule relating to this matter should be amended is at present under consideration.

Is the Home Secretary aware that if this rule had been enforced in Bunyan's time "Pilgrim's Progress" might never have been published?

There were times in my life when I was attending Sunday school when I would have thought that a very desirable thing.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have only today received a letter from one of his Parkhurst constituents offering no fewer than nine articles for publication? Must I wait for the gentleman's release before taking advantage of this unique opportunity?

Is the Minister aware that one of his predecessors informed me in answer to a question I raised about a book I wrote in Wandsworth, that I could not get it out because it would mean I would have been earning money and, therefore, would have had a privilege over all other prisoners? Now that other prisoners are allowed to earn money, is it not possible to waive this rule?

That is one of the considerations I have in mind.

Is the Minister aware that one of the most notable Welsh poets recently published 100 sonnets written in prison? Were Mr. Nicholas's poems suppressed by the prison governor?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the hardship to many women who are separated from their husbands, caused by the non-payment to magistrates' clerks of allowances made by order of the court, if he will consider some alternative method of payment to ensure that women receive their money regularly and are not compelled to appeal for public assistance.

On the information before me, I have no reason to think that any general alteration of the law is called for as regards the enforcement in England and Wales of wife maintenance orders made by courts of summary jurisdiction, which in the last resort have power to commit the husband to prison if satisfied that his failure to pay is due to wilful refusal or culpable neglect.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what instructions he has given to chief constables regarding the issue of arms licences to responsible persons residing in isolated localities; and whether chief constables are permitted to exercise their discretion in carrying out such instructions.

The law provides that the question whether a firearm certificate should be issued in a particular case is one for decision by the chief officer of police, subject to appeal to Quarter Sessions, and I have issued no instructions in the matter. I have, however, advised chief officers of police that in my view it should hardly ever be necessary for an individual to possess a firearm for the purpose of defending his person or property and that, in general, firearms cannot be regarded as a suitable means of protection in this country.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this instruction or this advice has not prevented a very large number of criminals from being in possession of firearms and using them, but it has prevented a good many law abiding and responsible persons living in isolated localities from having any means of protection?

I am not at all sure that if I advised that the private citizens of this country should arm themselves it would lead to anything other than a considerable increase in the arming of criminals.

asked the Prime Minister if he will instruct the Ministers of Labour, Agriculture, and Education to provide during the coming winter, in co-operation with the local education authorities, the Workers' Educational Association, and other appropriate bodies, educational facilities for German ex-prisoners and European Volunteer Workers similar to those formerly provided for prisoners of war at Radwinter and Trumpington Camps and the Wilton Park Training Centre.

I have been asked to reply. German ex-prisoners and European Volunteer Workers transferred from Holding Hostels to employment may take advantage of all educational facilities provided by local education authorities and voluntary organisations in the same way as ordinary British citizens. Special arrangements are made by my right hon. Friends the Minister of Labour and National Service and the Minister of Education for European Volunteer Workers while they are in Holding Hostels, and I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of Ministry of Education Circular Number 150 on the subject.

While one sympathises with the object of this Question, is it constitutionally correct to suggest that a Prime Minister should instruct other Ministers on detailed matters of the administration of their Departments?

I think perhaps the word "instruct" may be a little on the harsh side in this matter, and that it might be questioned from the point of view of the spirit of Cabinet government and Parliamentary democracy.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Agricultural Machinery Mobile Repair Unit at Kinnell, Angus, are employing about 15 Polish ex-Servicemen as mechanics; and.what steps were taken to make sure that no British mechanics were available for employment by this Unit.

The number of Polish ex-Service men supplied to this Repair Unit is seven and these were supplied not as mechanics but for unskilled work. Before approving their engagement my local officer satisfied himself that no suitable and willing unemployed British candidates were available for the work.

Can the Minister say whether any arrangement exists in this case for consultation by other Ministers with his Department before help is given—as it was given in this case—to set up an organisation of this kind'? My information is that, in fact, British mechanics are wanting jobs at the present time in this area.

The procedure we follow when application is made for the employment of foreign labour is that the books of the employment exchange and the adjoining exchanges are checked for British labour; then British labour, if available, is consulted and if it is unwilling to take the job we fall back on this other labour.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will give the approximate number or approximate percentage of civil servants and of local government officers classified on his registers in the categories of productive and non-productive, respectively.

No such classification is made in the records of my Department.

In the circumstances of the great demand for manpower at the present time, does the Minister think it desirable that Departments of the Government should have recruited over 20,000 new officials in the last quarter?

The hon. Member asked me about a classification between productive and non-productive workers. It is difficult to say what workers are nonproductive; it may be argued, is this House of Commons productive or not?

Would it be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to get similar figures for the London Stock Exchange or the Central Office of the Tory Party?

asked the Minister of Labour when investigations will be carried out into the effect on productivity and prices of the general shortening of hours of work during the past three years.

Productivity and prices and all the factors affecting them are under constant review by the Government. Special investigations covering the period mentioned, during which industry was engaged in the changeover from wartime production, are not contemplated.

Is it not a fact that the demand by the Government for increased production and increased output per man and the constant appeal of the workers and the trade unions for a reduction in prices could both be met to a very large extent by a lengthening of the hours?

There are many other factors to be taken into consideration in a matter of this kind. I do not propose to comment further upon that supplementary question because it does not arise out of the original Question, but I may say that the situation is kept under review.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement on the result of the National Coal Board's consideration of the question of the institution of the closed shop throughout the mining industry.

This is one of the matters which fall to be decided between the National Union of Mineworkers and the National Coal Board.

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean by that answer that the Government disinterest themselves from a subject of this importance both as a precedent for the future and as affecting the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of men? Have the Government no attitude and no policy on this question?

The Government's attitude has been stated from time to time and still remains. The Government leave negotiations as to relationship in industry to the partners in industry.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what is to be the position of those men who are directed, induced, or otherwise persuaded to go into the coal industry, because it is largely his responsibility and not that of the Coal Board nor of the National Union of Mineworkers?

That is a hypothetical question which, no doubt, we shall answer when it arises.

It is a question, is it not, which the hon. Gentleman will have to face now and in the future?

When it arises I will face it.

asked the Minister of Labour what action has been taken by his Department to attend to the welfare of the 24 E.V.Ws. now accommodated at The Grove, Rawfolds, Cleckheaton; and, in particular, whether he is satisfied that reasonable rents are being charged, and that the sanitary conditions, including the provision of one combined bathroom and W.C. for both sexes, need not be improved.

These workers took this accommodation on their own initiative. It is private accommodation for which I have no responsibility.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these European voluntary workers were placed in employment and given accommodation through his Department? Is he further aware that this accommodation is most unsatisfactory? In view of the fact that last year his Parliamentary Secretary informed the House that the authority for dealing with the welfare of European voluntary workers had been concentrated in his Department, what is he going to do about the welfare of these European voluntary workers?

I am not sure whether my hon. Friend has made an accidental mistake or not. He said these voluntary workers were placed in accommodation by the Ministry of Labour. So they were. But not in this accommodation. They were placed in accommodation; then of their own free will and accord they went to this private accommodation somewhere else. I do not think they are being fairly treated, but as they went themselves of their own desire we have no power to interfere. So far as the sanitation is concerned, it is not as bad as it is stated in the Question. It is bad enough, but not as bad as that. We have made inquiries, and the attention of the local authority has been drawn to it.

Is it the fact that the Minister has made available to them, if they will take it, alternative accommodation?

They had accommodation before from the Ministry, and they themselves, of their own free will, said they wanted to go from the one place and go to the other.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether such accommodation is found anywhere near their place of employment?

Yes, they were in accommodation provided for them. I am sorry my hon. Friend thinks I am trying to evade the question. I am not. They were in accommodation which was provided for them, and was satisfactory to them until somebody got hold of them and said, "Take accommodation elsewhere."

asked the Minister of Labour how many of those now included in Class Z reserve would be available for immediate recall in the event of an emergency.

I have nothing to add to the reply I gave the hon. Member on Tuesday, 21st September.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the statement made by the First Lord of the Admiralty yesterday, that the number was approximately 2,000,000, was a guess, a leak, or just a brick?

A bit of each, perhaps.