asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that present regulations as to civilian employees in the R.N.A.S. becoming established favour those who worked as civilians during the recent war at the expense of ex-Service men, and that in Northern Ireland those who did not volunteer for the forces have consequently a great advantage over those who did; and if he will amend his regulations so as to ensure more fair treatment.

The present regulations governing the establishment of Admiralty industrial employees were agreed with the trade union side of the Admiralty Industrial Council, and apply in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I regret that I am unable to amend those regulations.

Is the Civil Lord aware of the monstrous situation that results—that those who volunteered and served in the Armed Forces, if they have survived, are kept out of employment by men Who never volunteered and who were in well-paid civilian service right through the war?

I cannot agree that there is anything monstrous in this regulation. It is a regulation which applies to all employing bodies, whether Government or private, and that is, that a man who has not given service to that particular employing body cannot have that service counted. There is no difference made between the ex-Service man in Northern Ireland who volunteered for service and the man in the United Kingdom who also volunteered.

Is not the Civil Lord aware of the obvious fact that there is a tremendous difference in Northern Ireland, where the National Service Act did not apply, and where, if a man did not volunteer for service he was not called up? Does he not think that it is. monstrous that people who did not volunteer to serve should have employment at the expense of those who served?

I am aware that the Government of Northern Ireland did not think fit to apply the National Service Act.

That is not true.

In any case, it was not applied in Northern Ireland. Whoever was responsible for that, the plain fact is that it was not applied. The volunteer in the United Kingdom is every bit as good as the man who volunteered in Northern Ireland and served.

Will the Civil Lord correct the statement that the Government of Northern Ireland did not think fit to apply the National Service Act? Ulster was excluded from it by this House despite the request of Ulster to be included.

Withdraw.

I want to repeat what I have just said. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] It is a statement of fact that the National Service Act did not apply in Northern Ireland. Therefore, the volunteer in Northern Ireland was no better than the volunteer in Great Britain.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the Government of Northern Ireland were unanimous in asking that the Act should apply in Northern Ireland, and that all the Ulster Members were unanimous about it? It was the United Kingdom Government who did not apply it. It was the British who refused to apply it.

Answer.

So far as an answer is concerned, I have already answered.

If any special favours are being sought for those from Northern Ireland, will my hon. Friend bear in mind that there are thousands of men who are in exactly the same position, who did a jolly good job for the Allies, and who came from Eire?

Will not the Civil Lord withdraw the insult he has put on Northern Ireland generally by making a statement exactly contrary to the facts, which I know he did in ignorance?

There is no question of an insult. I can assure the House I had no thought of any insult. What I said was what I considered to be a statement of fact.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many Eire citizens are now employed as civilians at Eglinton R.N.A. station; and how many of these have served in His Majesty's Forces in war.

Seventeen citizens of Eire are employed as civilians at the Naval Air Station, Eglinton; six of them served in His Majesty's Forces in war.

Will the Civil Lord arrange for those who are citizens of a country which is now going out of the Commonwealth, and who never served in the British Forces, to be removed, and for ex-Service men who did serve, to be put into their positions?

We shall do nothing of the sort.

Why not?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the decision not to recommission H.M.S. "Ajax," he will give an undertaking in the light of the historic achievements of this ship and her war-time company that she will be broken up for scrap in this country rather than sold to a foreign Power.

No, Sir.

Would it not be more appropriate, as well as more dignified, to break up this ship for scrap, rather than to haggle with a territorial-grasping South American Republic about prices?

Can the Parliamentary Secretary tell us where this ship is now?

That is another question.

If there are to be these protracted delays in disposing of this vessel, will not my hon. Friend re-consider the question of breaking up this ship for scrap, which is very badly needed by the steel industry?

That possibility is being considered, and I hope to be in a position to make a statement shortly after the House resumes after the Christmas Recess.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that, under Admiralty Fleet Order 5228/42, it is laid down that overpayments to civil servants in His Majesty's Forces need not be claimed back and can be written off, he will extend this concession to officers who may have received overpayments through a mistake of his Department.

The regulations in Admiralty Fleet Order 5228/42, which refer to overpayments of balance of civil pay to civil servants who were serving in the Armed Forces, do not provide that recovery of the whole overpayment can be waived, but merely limit the amount to be recovered. When an overpayment of Service pay and allowances is made to a serving officer, whether a civil servant or otherwise, and has been received by him in good faith, the Admiralty has discretion to waive recovery of the amount overpaid, either in whole or in part, particularly when recovery would involve undue financial hardship, or when the overpayment was made under a genuine misunderstanding due to ambiguity of orders or regulations.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether any, and if so how many, payments have been made to officers in these circumstances, and is there any reason why an order should not be published definitely placing officers on the same footing as civil servants? Furthermore, is it not a fact that the first claim that is made against a relative of an officer who loses his life on active service is in respect of any advances of pay or overpayments?

Quite a number have been repaid. The position in the Navy is the same as it is in the other Services. As regards Service pay and allowances, repayments are made in a number of cases, although I cannot say the exact number; it is quite a large number.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty in how many ships under construction is work at present suspended.

Work is at present suspended on four light fleet carriers, three cruisers, one magnetic survey vessel and one small experimental vessel.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether the principal limiting factor in this case is the speed of development of new materials or a shortage of money?

Naturally both factors have to be taken into consideration. We have not an unlimited supply of money, but at the same time we want to see that we get the most up-to-date development possible, and in many cases it is desirable to wait for that before proceeding further.

When will the work be recommenced on these vessels, or is it so indefinite that a date cannot be given?

Work in regard to one ship will be resumed quite early, but I cannot give an answer at the moment in regard to the other two.

Is that the cruiser?

No, the light carrier.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will now agree to discuss with the recognised staff organisation concerned and with the Admiralty Administrative Whitley Council the proposed navalisation of the Electrical Engineering Branch of his Department.

The principle of navalisation is not a matter which falls within the ambit of Whitley machinery or of negotiation with a staff association. The effect on the future prospects of the civilian staff now serving in the Electrical Engineering Department, which would depend on the extent to which the principle is applied, has already been discussed in a preliminary way by the Admiralty Administrative Whitley Council, and will be further discussed with the staff side of that Council as soon as the official side are in a position to make definite proposals.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is proposed to issue the Return of Fleets in 1949.

I have nothing to add to the answer I gave on 11th February last to the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. J. P. L. Thomas).

Why is it the policy of the Admiralty to keep this House in complete ignorance of the relative strengths of the naval forces?

As I stated, up to date information is not available in respect of foreign fleets, and considerations of security make us feel it would be better to wait until such information is obtainable before publishing our own.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what opportunities will be given to National Service men in the Royal Navy to become officers.

It has been decided that all National Service men in the Royal Navy shall have the opportunity to reach officer rank during their period of full-time service. National Service men with no special technical or professional qualifications will be eligible for officer rank in the Executive and Supply and Secretariat Branches. Those with special qualifications will be eligible also for officer rank in the Engineering, Electrical, Instructor or Medical Branches.

About two-thirds of the candidates will be selected at the end of their new entry training and will then undergo a special officers' training course lasting about four months, at the end of which those who are successful will become probationary Midshipmen R.N.V.R. The remaining one-third of the places will, however, be reserved for men whose qualities do not emerge at an early stage in their service, so that they may be given full opportunity to be considered for officer rank later on. Successful candidates will be required to join the R.N.V.R. and to accept the normal liabilities of R.N.V.R. officers.

Is it expected that these men will be promoted during their 18 months, or during their service afterwards?

After their 15 weeks' initial training, they will be promoted as probationary midshipmen.

When these men become officers, will they be able to go into a State "pub" and have a glass of beer with the ratings?

How does this apply to the Royal Marines?

We are working out details to apply a similar system to the Royal Marines, and we are in consultation with the War Office now on the matter.

Will my hon. Friend see that these National Service men have every reasonable opportunity of showing what they are capable of, because many of them seem to spend months chipping paint in the Reserve Fleet?

I cannot accept that, but naturally the preservation of the Reserve Fleet is of great importance and some of them may be engaged on that.

asked the Postmaster-General how many post offices are situated in the same room as shops carrying on businesses, such as grocers, confectioners or stationers; and in view of the extension of the work and responsibilities of the post office, whether he will now arrange for this public service to be carried on in premises arranged solely for that purpose.

About 17,000. The amount of post office business transacted at them is generally insufficient to warrant the provision of separate offices, and the present arrangement enables the post office to give facilities over a much wider area than would otherwise be possible.

In view of the fact that most of this increase is connected with banking and insurance, will my right hon. Friend approach these organisations and ask them to offer their facilities to the nation rather than make use of the facilities of village grocers?

I think the Post Office is doing a pretty good job here.

Is it not a good thing for the public service to be in close contact with private enterprise in 17,000 different places?

It is a good thing to provide post offices as far as we can.

Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that it is still the policy of the Department to convert scale payment offices of this kind to Crown offices wherever that becomes practicable?

Does not the Postmaster-General recognise that many of these offices are doing admirable work in the rural areas, and that to curtail them would mean a great hardship to people in scattered communities?

asked the Postmaster-General whether in view of the present disparity between the wages of non-skilled industrial employees at Government engineering industrial establishments and the wages of labourers and skilled workmen, Class II (B), employed by the Post Office Engineering Department, he will set up a court of inquiry to consider the wage claim of the Post Office Engineering Union.

No, Sir. My Department is still discussing the claims with the Union.

Is the Postmaster-General aware that many men in the Post Office Engineering Union are meanwhile having to go out into private enterprise where the pay is more commensurate with their skill; and as this matter has been going on since April, will he not grant them a court of inquiry?

I have just said that negotiations are at present going on. I do not want to say anything in detail until these negotiations are settled.

While these discussions are going on, will the Postmaster-General bear in mind, that it is said among the engineers in Mount Pleasant, that no one in England is on the maximum figure of pay, and that a man cannot get the maximum until he reaches the age of 34? Is he aware that these men, who are a most highly skilled group of men, are receiving less than some manual workers, while the Department they serve has increased its profits by 1,000 per cent.? Is he also aware that many of these men are below a subsistence level.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied, in the course of these inquiries, that the men are getting a minimum living wage, at a time when they most need it, to enable them and their families to live in decency?

Naturally, all these facts are taken into consideration when one is negotiating a settlement.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication when these negotiations will be finalised?

I am always a little doubtful about giving a time in these matters, but I hope it will be shortly.

That is what the right hon. Gentleman said a month ago.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a good deal of discontent that exists in the Post Office Engineering Union is due to the fact that members feel there is a certain amount of camouflage in regard to the total cost of this scheme, because in Glasgow there are no labourers whatever and the Class II B skilled workers are very limited in numbers?

We are not the negotiating body. That is another body.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will now say what is the reason for the delay of seven months in dealing with the claim of certain sections of the Post Office Engineering Union for an increase in pay.

asked the Postmaster-General what is the cause of the delay in coming to a decision regarding the wage claims, which were submitted to his Department on 26th April last by the Post Office Engineering Unions; and when he expects to arrive at a decision.

Hon. Members will appreciate that these matters cannot be dealt with in isolation. My Department put proposals to the Union on the 12th November, and discussions are still in progress.

What justification is there for seven months, and will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to inform the steelworkers that this is what will happen to them when they become Government servants?

asked the Postmaster-General what is the average rate of pay of skilled worker Class II(A) employed in the telecommunications department of the Post Office as compared with the average wages paid to skilled men in private industry.

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) on Wednesday, 1st December.

Is it not a fact that there is such a great disparity that men are leaving the telephone service, and what is the justification for under-paying Government servants in comparison with private enterprise?

I do not think they are leaving the service in great numbers. Again I am driven back to the fact that this question cannot be dealt with in isolation. We have made an offer to these people, and we hope that a settlement will be reached before long.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will make a statement on the exceptional number of resignations of skilled members of the engineering department of the London Telecommunications Region of the Post Office as compared with before the war.

Wastage through voluntary resignation among skilled members of the engineering department of the London Telecommunications Region, though higher than before the war, is at the annual rate of about 4 per cent. of the total staff.

Is it not the case that there was practically no wastage before the war in this department; and is the reason for the men leaving this highly skilled service due to the fact that they can get a far higher rate of wages outside?

I think that may be one of the reasons, and it is also a fact that there are far more jobs from which to choose.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this rate of wastage compares very favourably with that obtaining today in similar industries?

Cannot the Government agree with this campaign of the Tories for increased wages and increase them all round at the Tories' expense?

asked the Postmaster-General why T. Jennings, an ex-Service man, of 62, Wordsworth Street, Hove, has been informed by letter, Reference DF 6074, that he cannot have casual employment over Christmas at the Brighton Post Office, though at a previous interview he had been told that work would be available for him as from 13th December; why an explanation was refused on his subsequent calling at the post office; and how many foreigners have been offered casual employment at Christmas by the Brighton Post Office.

I am assured that Mr. Jennings was not informed that work would be available for him as from 13th December. He was told, in common with other applicants, that, if selected, he would be required about 13th December. When he subsequently called at the Brighton Post Office, he was informed that it had not been possible to find suitable employment for him. No aliens are being employed at the Brighton Post Office during the Christmas season.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the inadequacy of the present telephone facilities at Ellon, Aberdeenshire; and when additional equipment will be allocated to this exchange.

I regret that the hon. Member has been misinformed. Additional exchange equipment has recently been provided at Ellon and where there is external plant waiting applicants will be given service as soon as labour is available.

Can the Minister say how soon the waiting list for telephones in Ellon will be reduced, and is he aware that some people have been waiting for three years for an installation?

Some of them have waited a long time, but the exchange equipment is now installed. What we are waiting for is the external equipment, like cables and overhead wires. I hope these people will have telephones shortly.

Can the Postmaster-General say whether the trunk-call service to Aberdeen will be improved, because it is only 20 miles away and it sometimes takes half an hour to get a call through?

That is another Question, and one which I should like to see on the Paper.

Can the Minister say whether more equipment will be given to isolated places in the Highlands, where the people are a great distance from any telephone?

Most hon. Members are aware that at the present time we are doing all we possibly can, particularly in remote places and for farmers.

asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that two British subjects of African descent, applying for employment as temporary postmen, were officially informed on Monday, 6th December, that such employment was available to white applicants only; and if he will give an assurance that his Department imposes no racial or colour discrimination in respect of such employment.

British subjects of colour are eligible to be considered for employment as temporary postmen, and are being so employed. If my hon. Friend will give me particulars of the case in mind, I will have inquiry made.

While I do not wish to bother my right hon. Friend about the particular case since I am asking the Minister of Labour about it tomorrow, can we then have the general assurance requested in the latter part of my Question?

My answer indicates that.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is satisfied that his proposal for moving the Post Office Savings Bank to Sheffield can be achieved without inflicting serious hardship on a large proportion of the staff.

Yes, Sir; though I recognise that there may be differing opinions as to what constitutes serious hardship. The move would be subject to the safeguards provided in the agreement between the official and staff sides of the Civil Service Whitley Council.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what steps in particular will be taken to assist those members of the staff who at present have homes in the London area?

Naturally when one is going to make transfers or removals, housing accommodation is one of the prime considerations.

Is it not a fact that an immediate transfer on the lines suggested in the Question is not a possibility?

I do not think that it is likely to happen just yet anyway.

asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will consider the granting of scholarships or other appropriate finacial aid to selected cadets of the Air Training Corps to enable them to qualify for a private pilots licence thereby assisting in the maintenance of flying clubs in the same way that has been carried out so successfully in Canada.

The question of aid to flying clubs is being examined in the Air Ministry and the Ministry of Civil Aviation. As regards air experience for the A.T.C., we are making great improvements in the gliding organisation and already every first-class cadet over 16 has the chance of learning to glide.

Why cannot cadets be given the opportunity to qualify for a pilot's licence in the same way as the opportunity is given to them in Canada, where the scheme has been most successful?

The Canadian scheme and others are being examined.

Is the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster giving instruction in how to glide?

asked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that lack of accommodation is seriously interfering with recruitment and training for the Air Training Corps; and, as this affects the recruitment for the R.A.F., what steps he is taking to improve conditions.

No, Sir. In nearly all cases the local committees have succeeded in housing their units satisfactorily, and the strength of the corps and the proportion of proficient cadets continue to rise. Where there are accommodation difficulties, my Department does all it can to help the local committees.

Is the Minister aware that there is very great dissatisfaction about the inadequate accommodation in various parts of the country? Will he consult the people in his own Department who advise him on these matters? If he does he might get a great deal more information.

I have consulted them. That is why I have stated that in nearly all cases the local committees have housed their units satisfactorily. If the hon. Member has information of units whose accommodation is unsatisfactory I hope that he will bring the information to my attention.

asked the Secretary of State for Air the number of married quarters available in the United Kingdom for officers and other ranks of the R.A.F., respectively; the number of such married quarters at present unoccupied awaiting repair; the number of married quarters at present under construction; and the number of officers and men whose names are at present on a waiting list for married quarters.

There are 1,240 married quarters for officers and 6,700 for airmen. Altogether about 25 are unoccupied and awaiting repair. Four hundred and thirty married quarters for officers and 2,100 for airmen are under construction. Each station has its own waiting list, but there is no central list so I cannot give the figures asked for. However I will have them compiled and will send them to the hon. Member.

Would not the Under-Secretary agree that the provision of adequate married quarters has a very important bearing on recruiting for, and on morale in, the R.A.F.? Will he further agree that if he wants to get the right type of man into the Air Force and keep him happy there, he must tackle this problem much more energetically?

I quite agree with the premise of the hon. Gentleman's argument. The problem is being tackled and 2,500 quarters are now being built.

asked the Secretary of State for Air (1)what system is employed and how long it takes his Department to obtain vacant possession of married quarters now being occupied by families of men still in the R.A.F. but whose entitlement to married quarters has ceased;

(2) what system is employed and how long it takes his Department to obtain vacant possession of married quarters now occupied by families of ex-Service officers and airmen whose entitlement to married quarters has ceased, due to their demobilisation from the Service.

When an occupant ceases for any reason to be entitled to occupy a married quarter he is given 61 days' notice. If the quarter is not given up at the end of this period the facts are reported to my Department so that proceedings may be taken through the courts.

Am I to understand that officers who are serving are given 61 days' notice, in the same way as an officer who has been demobilised.

That was my answer, but I ought to add that each case is considered on its merits and that we have never had any reason to reject a serving officer at all.

Is the Minister aware that there are some who have left the Service to take up civil employment and whose families are still occupying Service quarters, thereby depriving other Service families of accommodation?

Each case is gone into very carefully and 60 people altogether have been evicted.

asked the Secretary of State for Air if a decision has yet been reached on the question of establishing Air Sea Rescue Units of the Auxiliary Air Force; and where they are to be established.

No, Sir, but a decision will be taken shortly.

Will the Under-Secretary bear in mind that if he likes to send a telegram to the Shetlands it will produce results, because they are ready to form a unit tomorrow?

I am quite certain of that, and many coastal counties in the United Kingdom are willing to form these units. too.

asked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that in the October issue of the "R.A.F. Review," a publication prepared in his Department, it is stated that the Russian authorities during the war were paying British airmen of No. 151 Hurricane Wing of the R.A.F. 12,000 roubles for every German aircraft they destroyed; how many such aircraft were destroyed; how much money was paid over; who were the recipients; and who is the author of the article referred to.

Yes, Sir. As was publicly stated at the time, a sum of 15,000 roubles—about £300—was paid over by the Russian authorities, following their practice for their own forces, and was transferred to the R.A.F. Benevolent Fund. The sum actually paid in respect of each aircraft destroyed was 1,000 roubles and not 12,000 as stated in the article. Fifteen German aircraft were destroyed. The article was written by a member of the editorial staff.

Will the Under-Secretary say if the aircraft were destroyed by British pilots?

Yes, Sir, they were.

Can the Minister say why this exaggeration was permitted in this journal?

It was a misprint, as I said.

It happens in the Tory papers, too.

asked the Secretary of State for Air why Mr. A. E. Lintern, 9–81, Clifton Road, Aston, Birmingham 6, was rejected for service in the R.A.F. by the medical officer at No. 3 C.R.S.S. R.A.F. Station, Cardington, on 27th October, on the grounds that his condition showed him to be suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis, in view of the fact that a few days later the Tuberculosis Clinic, Great Charles Street, Birmingham, found him to be free from any sign of tuberculosis or from the likelihood of developing such a complaint; and what compensation his Department proposes to offer to Mr. Lintern for the shock caused to him by this inaccurate diagnosis.

Mr. Lintern's medical examination showed him to be unfit for service because he had a weak chest. No final diagnosis was made or could have been made without further clinical tests, but since the examination showed that he might be suffering from tuberculosis he was advised to see his own doctor, who was given the results of the examination by letter. This is in accordance with normal medical practice and in these circumstances there is no case for payment of compensation.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I have in my hand a medical certificate signed by the medical officer who examined Mr. Lintern and it clearly states that he suffered from active tuberculosis? In view of that will my hon. Friend take steps to see that these inaccurate diagnoses are not made on people who offer themselves for voluntary service in the R.A.F.; and in view of the grave shock caused in this case will he see that some compensation is paid?

Mr. Lintern was told that he might be suffering from tuberculosis and he should see his own doctor. The communication was from one doctor to another and it went into the prima facie findings of the R.A.F. doctor.

Can my hon. Friend explain what is the correct medical expression for this term "weak chest"?

I could not say exactly. I used the expression "weak chest" because I am a layman talking to laymen, but the doctor, writing to another doctor, used the correct medical term.

Is it not a fact that the medical department of the R.A.F. rendered very valuable service to Mr. Lintern?

It might have rendered him a very important service but it was found, in fact, that he was not so suffering from tuberculosis.

asked the Secretary of State for Air how many officers or officials in the Air Ministry receive petrol coupons for more than 200 gallons per annum in respect of official duties.

Eighty-five.

Would not the Minister agree that any suspicion or rumour amongst the general public that petrol allowance on too lavish a scale, at the expense of the ordinary motorist, is going on at the Air Ministry, will reflect adversely upon the Royal Air Force as a whole. Will he consider this matter very carefully, especially as I have heard that petrol is being dished out on too lavish a scale?

The figure I have given certainly shows that that is not so, since last year the figure was 120. There has been a reduction to 85.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether in view of the deficiencies in the strength of the R.A.F., he will consider following the practice of the Canadian and United States Governments by handing over part of the air survey work to civil air survey companies and thus releasing officers and men of the R.A.F. for warlike purposes.

The four photographic reconnaissance squadrons of the Royal Air Force employed on air survey work for the civil departments would be required in war for photographic intelligence and survey duties and the work they are doing provides them with valuable peace-time training.

While there is very great pressure on the Royal Air Force owing to the requirements of the Berlin air lift, may I ask whether the Air Ministry will not again consider whether they could not call in aid the civil air survey companies for colonial service, so as to relieve the Royal Air Force?

A balanced air force requires a certain proportion of photographic squadrons. It would certainly not strengthen the Royal Air Force to turn those squadrons into fighting or transport squadrons. On the second point, the civil Departments are perfectly free to employ private firms if they wish to, but find the R.A.F. is cheaper, more convenient and more efficient.

Do the Air Force photographic squadrons compete with the civil survey companies for these jobs?

I do not know about competition. We are asked by certain civil Departments to undertake this work, and we do so.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if, in order to implement his undertaking to do what he can for flying clubs, he will institute a scheme similar to that operated in Canada whereby financial aid is given to enable promising cadets of the Air Training Corps to receive flying instruction to enable them to qualify for a private pilot's licence.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation whether he is yet in a position to announce measures of assistance towards British gliding clubs.

The question of financial assistance to flying and gliding clubs and other private flying agencies is to be reviewed by an inter-departmental working party which has been set up by agreement with the Ministers of the Service Departments and the Minister of Supply.

Will the Minister draw the attention of the working party to the very successful action that has been taken in Canada to help flying clubs, with a view to getting as much information as possible to see what can be done about flying clubs in this country?

Yes, Sir. In addition, our attention has been called to the matter by the Air League of the British Empire.

Will the Minister ask the working party to make a report before the next gliding season starts in the Spring?

That is our intention. but I would not like to give a promise that it will be realised.

Does the Minister realise that there was a committee dealing with this subject nearly two years ago? Will not the Government make up their minds what they intend to do about it. before the clubs go broke?

Yes, Sir, but it is a question of the financial implications. On the last occasion we were not able to convince the Treasury. On this occasion I hope that we shall be able to do so.

Will the Minister say what the difference is between an inter-departmental working party and the more usual form of investigation by an inter-departmental committee?

That is a technical matter which it would take too long to explain.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what is the purpose of the questionnaire R.46656/47/A.S.(G)3 dated 20th October, 1948, which was sent to air charter operators by his Department.

For the purpose set out in Section 24 of the Civil Aviation Act, 1946, a copy of which Section was enclosed with the letter.

Would the Minister agree that the completion of this form involves a tremendous amount of work and would need the full-time services of a qualified accountant, if it is to be properly done? Might I be allowed to give one example? It is as follows:

"How did the consignors know that space was available? Was the first approach made by the consignors to your Company, or by your Company to the consignors? How was that approach made? Whom did the consignors pay for the carriage of the freight?"

Is that not just another example of unnecessary red tape and bureaucracy?

Not if the people answering the questions have nothing to hide.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he will make a statement as to the directions he has issued to the three airways corporations to purchase their stores and requirements as far as possible in the sterling area.

My noble Friend has not considered it necessary to issue formal directions to the three airways corporations because he is satisfied that they are fully alive to the need for economy in the use of foreign exchange. and especially of hard currencies.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary ask his noble Friend to look into this matter further, as there is a good deal of evidence accumulating to show that the corporations are not taking the care which they ought to take, particularly in regard to trading in dollar area countries?

My noble Friend takes a very keen interest personally in this matter. In addition, the corporations are subject to the same stringent regulation and control as any other commercial or trading undertaking. If the hon. Member has any information whatever to the contrary and he will bring it to us, it will receive the most definite inquiry.

How does the Minister reconcile the answer he has just given with the fact that it has taken some of us more than two years to persuade his Department to persuade the corporations to change their bases from Canada to this country on the ground that their dollar expenditure has been excessive?

British ways are sometimes slow but they are very effective in the end.

Is the Minister creating an inter-departmental working party to look into this matter?

Not on this occasion.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he is aware of the disturbance caused to the residents of South Harrow by the testing of aircraft engines at Northolt Aerodrome at night; and if he will take steps to see that this nuisance is abated.

I regret that I have nothing to add to the very full replies that I have given in my recent letters to the hon. Member.

Is the Minister aware that the noise is so bad that the people of this thickly populated area are unable to get proper sleep? Will he look into the possibility of carrying out engine testing at another aerodrome some little distance away?

This House requires the corporations to operate economically. This involves the necessity for aeroplanes to operate from their own bases. Unfortunately, aircraft are noisy instruments of transport. We are doing everything possible to mitigate the noise, but I would be misleading the House and people in the vicinity of the airport if I led them to believe that they were not likely to get considerable disturbance from both the flying and the testing of aircraft.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation by what date the contingent claims between the Ministry of Civil Aviation, the Ministry of Supply and the B.E.A., referred to in paragraph 25 of the B.E.A. report for the year ended 31st March, 1948, will be settled.

The negotiations regarding the Viking contingent claims have proved protracted, but I expect that they will be settled in the near future and that the necessary accounting adjustments will be made in the books of B.E.A.C. during the current financial year.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what is the approximate amount of time and money lost by B.E.A.C. for the year ended 31st March, 1948, due to the uncommercial procedure, followed on the Government's instructions, and referred to in the report of B.E.A.C., page 20, paragraph 21.

It is not possible to assign time or money values to any additional administrative effort involved in the procedure referred to by the hon. and gallant Member.

Will this procedure come to an end before the next report is issued on 31st March, 1949?

Yes, Sir. The House will remember that a special committee of businessmen were appointed by the Prime Minister. Effect will be given to their findings almost immediately.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation why the respective reports of the Helmore Committee on the Certification of Aircraft and of the Wilcock Committee on Training of Civil Aviation Aircrew Personnel have not been published; and whether it is proposed to published them.

These reports are now under examination in the Government Departments concerned. Publication will take place when a statement of Government policy can be made.

What is the purpose of not publishing these reports until the final decision is made?

It might complicate the issue if we published them beforehand.

If these reports are only a basis for discussion, would it not be better if industry generally and the trade Press could have the opportunity of discussing them before the final decision is made?

I should have thought that it was the function of the Committee to get the views of the trade and industry generally before making their report to the Minister.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what proportion of the total quantity of fat, amounting to 217,000 tons, agreed to be delivered into the Anglo-U.S. zone of Germany for the twelve months ending 30th June, 1949, had been so delivered by 31st October, 1948; and what quantity will deliveries amount to for the months of November and December, 1948, and January, 1949.

The proportion of fats delivered by 31st October, 1948, was 22.5 per cent. The quantities delivered or expected to be delivered in November, December and January are 26,700 tons, 10,000 tons and 10,000 tons respectively.

My right hon. Friend really has puzzled me. Does his answer mean that in the first four months, up to the end of October, the promised amount, namely, 70,000 tons, has been delivered, and that 20,000 tons a month for the next three months will be delivered, or has been delivered in the case of November; because percentages are of no use one knows what x is?

On the advice of my work-party it was 22.5 per cent. of the total that was expected to be delivered.

I cannot put the Question down again before Christmas, but will my right hon. Friend explain to his working party that what they are really trying to do is to deceive the House of Commons?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on whose instructions the officers in charge of the extradition tribunal in Hamburg warned lawyers against appealing to Members of Parliament in order to get the extradition regulations altered and cancelled.

I am having inquiries made and will write to my hon. Friend.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the conclusions of the tribunal the presiding genius said that if any such attempt were repeated, he would take the strictest measures against any person who thereby tried to influence the work of the tribunal; and, surely, that is quite contrary to our ideas of the freedom which should be allowed even to a conquered people?

I cannot pronounce these solemn judgments of which my hon. Friend is so capable until I have had the results of the inquiries.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps are being taken to prevent German industrialists invoicing exports for less than their worth and so organising a dollar leakage from the pool of foreign money created to pay for imports.

An attempt is now being made to reorganise the Customs and Frontier Control Services of the three Western zones as a whole. This re-organisation should make for a much more efficient and sound service than at present exists and should greatly reduce the opportunities for exchange control evasion.

Can my right hon Friend confirm or deny that the irregularities in this matter cover as much as 60 million dollars, because, if that is so, it is a really serious thing?

I admit it is very serious. It is a very serious case and very difficult to handle. We are reorganising the whole business. I have no knowledge of the exact amount.

Is it not correct that in fact the export prices of all these materials are controlled by J.E.I.A., a joint agency representing the bizone, and that the Germans have little to do with it as far as export prices are concerned?

That is so.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has protested against the kidnapping of Mr. Whalley, a British civilian, who was carried across the Yugoslav frontier and imprisoned for six weeks, during 40 days of which he was kept in solitary confinement in a small cell suffering from starvation and cold, while no charge whatever was brought against him.

In view of a report which I have just received from the Allied Military Government authorities in Trieste on this subject, I have asked His Majesty's Ambassador in Belgrade to address a note of protest to the Yugoslav Government about the duration of Mr. Whalley's captivity without any charge being brought, and also about the fact that no British representative was informed at the time of his arrest nor was Mr. Whalley allowed to communicate with anyone. The protest is being made on the grounds that the action of the Yugoslav authorities was contrary to the usual procedure in such cases.

Has the right hon. Gentleman also brought to the attention of the Government that this unfortunate man was starved and, further, that he says he was almost crazy, being shut up in Ljubljana prison, absolutely innocent, without any charge being brought against him?

The same thing in Ulster.

I have not protested against his arrest. I want to make that clear to the House. My information is that he ignored warnings and entered without a permit. What I protested against was his detention, their failure to notify us and their failure to treat him properly.

Will the Foreign Secretary make it clear that he expects foreign Governments to carry out the requests which are set out over his own signature on all British passports?

I expect it. I expect lots of things but I do not always get them.