House Of Commons
Tuesday. 18th January. 1949
The House—after the Adjournment on 17th December. 1948, for the Christmas Recess—met at Half-past Two o'Clock
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Death Of A Member
I regret to have to inform the House of the death of William Thomas Adams, Esquire, Member for the Borough of Hammersmith (South Division), and I desire, on behalf of the House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the honourable Member.
Oral Answers To Questions
Disability Pensions
1.
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he can now state what was the total amount paid by his Department, inclusive of all allowances, to pensioners whose disabilities were assessed at less than 100 per cent. in the years ended 31st March, 1939, and 31st March, 1948, respectively; and what was the average weekly payment in each year per pensioner assessed at less than the 100 per cent. rate.
In respect of pensions from 50 per cent. to 95 per cent. the total amount paid in the financial year 1938–39 was £9,200,000 and £15,600,000 in 1947–48. The average weekly payments were £1 8s. 4d. and £1 17s. 8d., respectively. For pensions from 20 per cent. to 45 per cent. the total payments were £9,100,000 in 1938–39 and £21,200,000 in 1947–48. The average payments were 12s. 7d. and 16s. 10d., respectively.
Is the Minister aware that this is No. 1 Question on the Order Paper, and is it not also No. 1 obligation on the Government to secure an adequate pension for these men? Is he aware that the solution for the few is not the solution for the many, and that there are many today who are sadly in need of assistance?
If the hon. Member will make a little calculation after he has had time to read these figures, he will see that the increase in both cases was 33 per cent.
British Army
Emergency Commissions (Marriage Allowance)
2.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether married officers with emergency commissions who agreed to stay in the Army until the end of the state of emergency are eligible for the recently announced 6s. per diem additional allowance for those married officers not living in provided quarters.
On the assumption that my hon. Friend is referring to married officers with emergency commissions who volunteered to defer their release until general demobilisation, the answer is "Yes."
Food Supplies, Germany (Subsidies)
3.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will make arrangements to enable members of His Majesty's Forces and their wives in Germany when purchasing at N.A.A.F.I. stores those articles of food that are subsidised directly or indirectly in this country, to share the full benefit of current subsidies.
Rations for soldiers and their families in B.A.O.R. are not supplied by N.A.A.F.I. but by the R.A.S.C. Only a few special foodstuffs, such as sauces and baby foods, are sold by N.A.A.F.I. Those foodstuffs whose prices are subsidised in the United Kingdom, whether supplied by the R.A.S.C. or by N.A.A.F.I. are supplied to soldiers' families in Germany at prices which pass on to them the full benefit of the subsidies.
Detained Soldier, Colchester
4.
asked the Secretary of State for War why Richard Arthur Elliott was detained for over two months in Colchester Barracks without being brought to trial; and with what offences he was charged.
This case is sub judice, these questions being, as my hon. Friend is aware, at present the subject of inquiry by the High Court.
Town And Country Planning
Basildon Development Corporation
7.
asked the Minister of Town and Country Planning who have been appointed to the Basildon Development Corporation; and when the work of development will begin.
My right hon. Friend has not yet set up the Development Corporation but he expects to do so this month. My hon. Friend will appreciate that much preliminary work in the appointment of staff and preparation of plans will be necessary on the part of the Corporation before they can begin actual development.
Tree Felling (Licences)
8.
asked the Minister of Town and Country Planning whether, in view of the fact that 250 cubic feet of timber, involving as many as eight trees, can be felled without licence, that much of the countryside is being denuded of woodlands as a result and that local authorities are slow to use their powers by making Tree Preservation Orders, he will extend the licence system and circularise to local authorities an instruction to use existing powers in this connection more fully.
My right hon. Friend is not aware that the arrangements are having the results suggested but he will be glad to consider any evidence that my hon. Friend may care to bring forward. A circular has already been prepared and will shortly be issued to local authorities which, amongst other things, advises them to take effective action to protect amenity trees and woodlands.
Will my hon. Friend look particularly at the position in Bedfordshire where the County Council is setting an excellent example in preserving trees throughout the county? Will he commend that example to other local authorities so that, if possible, they may copy it?
That, in effect, is what the circular does.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if a licence has to be obtained in nearly every case where a small amount of timber is to be felled, there will be a very great deal of hardship and delay and a greatly increased staff will be needed to deal with it?
The sense of my reply is in accordance with what the hon. and gallant Member says.
Will the hon. Gentleman issue instructions to local authorities to ensure that these powers are not abused by over-enthusiastic local authorities to interfere with the proper management of commercial woodlands?
The hon. Member had better await the circular.
Hope Valley (Cement Works)
9.
asked the Minister of Town and Country Planning whether he has considered the apprehensions expressed to him by the hon. Member for Bedford and others at his decision, following the public inquiry into the proposals of Messrs. Earles to extend their cement works in the Hope Valley; and whether, in view of its adverse effect on the amenities of a potential national park as well as on farming interests in the district, he will reconsider his verdict and in the meantime make a public statement.
The decision to allow an extension of these works was taken after very full consideration of all points of view and after a local inquiry lasting three days. My right hon. Friend is fully satisfied that the expansion of the works is necessary in the interests of national cement production, that the new works will in many ways be an improvement on the existing works, and that the conditions imposed for the landscaping and after-treatment of the land will minimise the adverse effects, if any, on the amenities of the area.
Is my hon. Friend aware that the reply he has just given will not satisfy large numbers of people in the country who believe that the decision of the Minister is a definite and heavy blow at the National Parks movement? Is he further aware that to make the top end of the Hope Valley derelict for 117 years, as will be the case if this project goes through, is an extremely anti-social thing?
This is a decision the necessity for which we naturally regret, but we must have regard to the overwhelming demand for cement and, subject to reasonable after-care of the land—which we believe we have provided in this case—we are bound to consider that, too.
Has the Minister issued, or if not, will he issue an explanation of the decision he has come to; a reasoned statement of why he has arrived at this conclusion after the inquiry?
A very full Press report was issued and it contained much of the information which the hon. Gentleman seeks.
Can my hon. Friend say whether there was any alternative put forward to this factory which would have produced the cement required? Also, could he not place in the Library a copy of the evidence given by both sides at the inquiry, because there is great concern, and hon. Members would like to form their own judgment?
On the first point, there is an overall shortage of cement and we want as far as possible to develop all practicable proposals. I will certainly consider the second point.
Has the hon. Gentleman considered the representations made by the National Trust, and is he aware of the grave anxiety that the National Trust entertains on this matter?
Yes, we have given full consideration to all those representations and to many others on the other side, too. We have tried to strike a balance.
is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in deciding to destroy the beauty of this lovely valley for ever, the Government did not even give reasons for rejecting the alternatives? Does he think that is fair and just?
I must submit that we have not destroyed the natural beauty for ever, and if careful study is given to the plan it will be found that great care has been taken as far as is possible—and to a large extent it is possible—to preserve that beauty.
Owing to the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, and in spite of the fact that I am sailing to America tomorrow for some long time, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter at the first opportunity on my return.
National Insurance
Industrial Diseases
11.
asked the Minister of National Insurance, what progress he has made in examining the prospects of bringing within the benefits of the Industrial Injuries Act workmen disabled by pneumoconiosis or silicosis prior to the commencement of that Act.
I regret that I cannot yet make any further statement on this matter.
May we take it as an assurance that the Minister is carrying out the promise he has made on several occasions to the House to give this question sympathetic consideration, and can we expect a reasonably early statement on it?
I am examining the matter. I did promise that I would try to reach a conclusion by the middle of this year, and that promise still stands.
Share Fishermen
12.
asked the Minister of National Insurance whether he has received the report of the National Insurance Advisory Committee on the preliminary draft of the National Insurance (Mariners) (Amendment) Regulations, 1948; and whether he will make a statement on the matter.
Yes, Sir, I have received the Committee's report and have accepted their recommendations. The report and draft regulations, revised accordingly, are being laid today and copies will be placed in the Vote Office as soon as they are available.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the report bears out the spirit of the answers he has given in this House?
Yes, the broad attempt of the report will be to bring these share fishermen into Class I for the purpose of the National Insurance Act, and to make special recommendations governing the payment of unemployment benefit. I would not like to summarise this; it will be set out fully in the report.
Employment
Disabled Persons, Southend
13.
asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the number of persons in Southend who are registered under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act; the number of such persons who are unemployed; and what special steps are being taken in the area to provide additional work for the disabled.
Two thousand six hundred and fifty, of whom 440 were unemployed on 15th November last. Continuous efforts are being made to find employment for the disabled, and I have invited disablement advisory committees to co-operate with my local offices in this task.
Staple Industries (Recruitment)
15.
asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement on the results of the campaigns to recruit more workers for the coalmining, textile and agricultural industries during 1948; and what further steps he is considering for the year 1949.
The labour forces of these industries showed the following net increases in 1948 after the replacement of wastage: Coalmining, 8,000; Textiles, 32,000 (to end-November); Agriculture, 42,000 (to end-November). The measures taken in 1948 will be continued this year.
Can the Minister say why there has not been a greater increase in the number of people who have gone into the textile mills; can he give some reason for it and say whether, in his view, it is due to lack of incentive or to difficulties regarding the methods employed in recruiting?
That is completely foreign to the Question itself. If my hon. Friend will put that question down, I will try to reply to it.
Poles
16.
asked the Minister of Labour how many Poles leaving higher and ordinary schools, respectively, have failed to be placed in work owing to inadequate knowledge of English in the first and last six months of 1948 respectively; and what proportion these are of all those leaving Polish schools in this country.
The available records do not enable me to give the information in the precise form asked for. At the end of December there were 232 of these young people registered for employment, of whom 71 had come on to the register during that month.
American Forces (Civilian Employees)
18.
asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the dismissal of a shop steward by the American Commanding Officer at Burtonwood, Lancashire; and in the interests of industrial peace, what steps is he taking to prevent trade union discrimination towards civilian employees of the American forces stationed in Britain.
This man was discharged on grounds of redundancy before his appointment as a shop steward had been notified to the Commanding Officer. I understand that he has since obtained other employment. There was no question of trade union discrimination and at a meeting held under the auspices of my Department the Commanding Officer and the trade union have now made arrangements for joint discussion of any matters of mutual interest arising in future.
In view of the wording of the Question, may I ask what conceivable interest a Communist can have in the maintenance of industrial peace?
Control Of Engagement Order
19.
asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of His Majesty's Government's support of Article 24 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, he proposes to withdraw the Control of Engagement Order.
20.
asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the adhesion of His Majesty's Government to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, according to Article 24 of which everyone has the right to free choice of employment, an early declaration will be made of the revocation of the Control of Engagement Order.
I would ask the hon. Members to await the reply to be given today by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister regarding the character of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
National Service Registrations
14.
asked the Minister of Labour if he will now make a statement on the age of call-up during 1949 and 1950.
17.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is now in a position to state which age groups he proposes to call up for National Service during the present year.
There will be four registrations this year. The age of call-up during 1949 will, therefore, remain unchanged at a little above 18 years and three months. I have already announced that the first registration will take place on 26th February. The other registrations will take place on 21st May, 3rd September and 3rd December. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement showing the age-classes to he registered on these dates.
I shall announce further registrations and any change in the age of call-up in 1950 as early as I can in order to give young men the longest possible notice. I think it will clear away certain misunderstandings if I add that, after registration, medical examinations are spread over the following three months. The oldest are examined first, so that all young men, whose cases present no special features, are called up at approximately the same age. The exact date of call-up depends on a number of factors. For example, in order to fit young men into the places in the Services for which they are best suited, their qualifications, experience and aptitudes are taken into account as well as their preference for a particular Service. Normally an enlistment notice follows completion of medical examination after an interval of between four and six weeks. If young men at school wish to be called up early in order to tit in their period of Service with the beginning of courses at the universities in the autumn of any year, their request will be granted. This will also apply to teachers' training colleges and to full-time courses of appropriate standard at technical colleges. Boys who so desire are not called up before the end of the school term in which they are required to register or in which they reach the age of 18, whichever is the later.Whilst thanking the Minister for the full statement he has made about the age of call-up in 1949, may I ask him if he can now say whether it is still the intention of the Government to carry out the statement made in the Defence White Paper for 1948 to raise the age of call-up in 1950 to 18 years nine months?
No, Sir, no actual decision has been taken, or can be taken, until the requirements of the Services at that period are known. At the moment I am happy to say we have it stabilised for the current year at 18 years three months and a little over.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many young men will be called up during 1949 as the result of following this procedure?
I am sorry to say I could not give that answer without notice but, making a guess, I think it is somewhere about 150,000.
As it is now proposed to give educational facilities to those proposing to enter the inshore fishing industry, will the Minister take account of the fact that fishermen should be treated on the same lines as other people in regard to calling up and educational facilities?
If I understand the question aright, it relates to fishermen who are undergoing some educational course. The answer I have given applies not only to those who are going to the universities but to those wishing to go to technical colleges, and teachers' training colleges.
Will the facilities be available for young men who wish to commence military duties at the age of 18?
Yes, where it is desired to start Service earlier so that it will enable them to complete their Service in time to take up their after-Service spheres of activity such facilities will be available.
Will the right hon. Gentleman, when calling up these young men, be careful that he sends them to the right places for enlistment, as several cases have been brought to my notice where young men have been sent to the wrong places of enlistment and have had to pay their railway fares back to London?
If our attention had been drawn to any such case we should have been glad to rectify any omission that had taken place.
Could the Minister say to whom the 150,000 he has just mentioned refers because, from the figures we had before, that was to be the call-up for the Army alone?
I ventured a guess without looking at my papers. I would be glad if the hon. and gallant Gentleman would put a question to me, either on the Paper or privately, and I will give him the exact information.
In view of the serious shortage of building labour in Scotland, does the Minister intend to call up any more people from the building industry to the Armed Forces?
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down that Question.
Following is the statement:
Scotland
Electricity Supply
21.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the estimated peak demand and peak capacity for electrical supply for this winter as compared with last in that part of Scotland which is administered by the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Development Board.
The peak capacity of plant in the North of Scotland district for this winter is 220,000 kws. The maximum load recorded up to 12th January is 209,000 kws. including an export of 25,000 kws. to Central Scotland. Under extreme cold weather conditions the peak maximum demand is estimated to be 235,000 kws. The maximum load during the winter of 1947—48, was 194,000 kws., including export to central Scotland, and the peak capacity, 218,000 kws.
In view of the fact that in exceptional weather a deficiency is shown, would my hon. Friend say what steps are then taken to meet the demand?
Spreading the load as far as we can in the industrial areas.
Then the domestic consumer is not penalised in order to maintain a surplus?
No, Sir. Indeed, in the area served by the North of Scotland Board there is not this great demand in excess of capacity.
Prison Officers' Clubs (Licences)
22.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will reconsider his decision not to allow prison officers' clubs in Scotland to be licensed for the sale of wines and spirits in addition to the beers and ciders now permitted, in view of the fact that prison officers' clubs in England and Northern Ireland are so licensed.
No, Sir. My right hon. Friend is not prepared to change the existing rules in this matter.
Is there any earthly reason whatever why we should not treat these officers as grown-up men; and is there any reason why they should be any less free to order what they like than a citizen in a public house or we within the smoking room?
Grown-up men in Scotland act rather differently from grown-up men in England.
Are we to understand that in those circumstances the export of Scotch whisky from Scotland to England is part of a deeply laid plot against this country?
Socialised Industries
Executive Positions
23.
asked the Prime Minister what provisions are included in contracts made with persons appointed by Ministers to executive positions on nationalised Boards for terminating these contracts before the final date of expiry of any agreement.
The Statutes establishing the Boards of socialised industries provide that either Regulations (as, for instance, in the case of the Electricity Authority and its Area Boards) or the relevant Instruments of Appointment (as in the case of the Transport Commission and its Executives) shall lay down the circumstances in which a Minister may terminate appointments to those Boards made by him or by his predecessors. In both types of case an office may be declared vacant in certain named contingencies, or if in the opinion of the appointing Minister the holder becomes unfit to continue in office or incapable of performing his duties therein; or if he deliberately absents himself from such duties without permission.
Then is it the opinion of the Prime Minister that a member of an area board might be unfit to continue holding office if he considers himself personally unfit to continue on the board of the Bank of England?
That is clearly quite a different question.
Revenue (Advertising)
27.
asked the Prime Minister if he will lay down as Government policy that, in all schemes of nationalisation where industries or services are taken over and run in the public interest, revenue shall not be obtained from activities in any way harmful to the public interest.
I am not clear exactly what my hon. Friend has in mind, but it is certainly the view of the Government that the socialised industries should refrain from activities which are harmful to the public interest.
Will my right hon. Friend be prepared to recommend to his colleagues responsible for nationalisation to adopt, as part of Government policy, the relinquishing of the revenue obtained from drink advertisements in accordance with the policy pursued in relation to the Post Office? Will he recommend this policy in regard to the transport systems, particularly railway hotels and station restaurants?
I was not aware that the Post Office ran hotels.
Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer forgo any revenue from drink?
Will my right hon. Friend take into account that when the report of the Licensing Commission was given to this House there was a recommendation in the minority report as to how loss of revenue might be avoided in dealing with drink? Will he take into account that minority report, as it was signed by a distinguished member of the Labour Party?
Government Department0s (Advisory Bodies)
24.
asked the Prime Minister if he will publish a list of all the Departmental or inter-Departmental advisory bodies of a central or national character whose membership consists wholly or partly of non-officials; what is the number and nature of similar local bodies; how many individuals may be appointed to each body; and whether they may be remunerated.
There are about 700 central or national bodies of the nature described. The compilation of the detailed information requested is not completed. When it is I will place a copy in the Library and inform the hon. Member. The collection of the information on central bodies has involved a great deal of work in Departments; the collection of similar information about local bodies would involve even more and would not be justified.
Is the Prime Minister satisfied that with these members of his 700 advisory bodies he is getting all the advice that the Government now require?
Our 700 advisory bodies to various undertakings, I think. are doing very useful work.
Is the Prime Minister aware that there is a feeling, certainly in Wales, that the Prime Minister is very badly advised in regard to some of these appointments? May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to take note of the fact that there is in Wales, after all, some talent and that we do not necessarily depend on two or three individuals to be appointed to every board and every commission?
1 had not understood that there were only one or two Welshmen on these 700 boards.
Divorce Law
25.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the present state of the divorce law and make recommendations.
The Government are not prepared to recommend to His Majesty the appointment of a Royal Commission at the present time, but realise that this matter is one which must be kept under careful review.
Declaration Of Human Rights
26.
asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government accede to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and what changes they propose to initiate in British domestic and colonial legislation in order to bring such legislation into line with the principles laid down in the Universal Declaration.
I should perhaps explain the difference between the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Draft Covenant of Human Rights. The Declaration is a statement of fundamental human rights and freedoms that the General Assembly has proclaimed as a common standard of achievement which all should strive to attain. The draft Covenant, on the other hand, is to be a legally binding Convention. It will contain specific obligations to secure the observance by all States that accede to it of those rights and freedoms which can be expressed in such a form.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted by the General Assembly in the form of a Resolution, the United Kingdom representative voting in its favour. There is no question of any separate act of accession by States, or of an obligation to give early legislative effect to any provision with which Kingdom or Colonial laws may at the moment be at variance. Nevertheless, His Majesty's Government subscribe generally to the ideal embodied in the Declaration and will continue to work towards it.Is the Prime Minister aware that that reply will cause very great concern among a number of people, many of them in this country, who hoped that this Declaration of Human Rights was going to be accepted by the Government as a standard for the future behaviour of all civilised nations? Is the Prime Minister saying now that we are merely going to pay lip service to it and not strive to get rid of the control of engagements and other things?
I am afraid that the hon. Member could not have listened to what I have said, because what he is stating is exactly the reverse of what I said. In fact, I stated precisely what he has suggested those people were hoping.
Then may I ask the Prime Minister if he will give a specific assurance that within a short measure of time our British and Colonial legislation will be brought into line with the standard of behaviour which is now accepted as the result of this charter?
I think, generally speaking, that-both here at home and in the British Commonwealth we approach more nearly to reaching these ideals than does any other country in the world.
May I ask my right hon. Friend whether there is any hope, as the result of our adherence to this convention, that we shall get rid of all discrimination on grounds of sex in this country?
Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues are striving day and night to get rid of the closed shop?
That seems to be rather begging the question.
Will my right hon. Friend draw the attention of the Secretary of State for War to the section in the Declaration where it is declared that a man is innocent until found guilty and ask the Secretary of State for War to see that his Department acts on these lines?
My hon. Friend had better put down a Question to the Secretary of State for War.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that Article 24 of the Declaration lays down that everyone, without discrimination, has the right of equal pay for equal work; and can he give the House an assurance that the Government will work towards this a little more radically than they have worked up till now?
These declarations contain a great number of rights, but rights must always be considered also with regard to duties and when one is looking at the whole body of these rights one must see how far in given circumstances one must approach them. It is not, I think, accepted that every State will be able at once to realise all these ideals.
Is it not the case that one of the fundamental rights of mankind is to put an end entirely to the exploitation of man by man? Do the Tories and Liberals approve of that?
I think other things might be put into action also.
In view of the most unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall ask for a day to debate this matter, or raise it on the Adjournment.
Wales (Council)
28.
asked the Lord President of the Council what further steps have been taken in connection with the setting up of a National Council for Wales; what invitation local authorities and other public bodies have received to submit names for the Prime Minister's consideration for seats on this council; and who has been selected as chairman.
As I informed the House on 24th November, it was not the intention to set up the Council for Wales and Monmouthshire until the New Year. The object of waiting was to enable the Government to take into account any further views which hon. Members and others might wish to convey, and I am glad to say that the reception which the scheme has had in Wales has been such as fully to justifiy the Government in proceeding with the proposal. At this preliminary stage, no invitations to serve on the Council or to submit names for consideration, have been issued, but we shall go ahead as quickly as is practicable. It will, however, take some time to complete the necessary consultations with Welsh local authorities and other bodies.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the question I put to the Prime Minister a few minutes ago when I said that there are more than one or two individuals in Wales, particularly in regard to the chairmanship of this body? If rumours are correct they are not very pleasant reading.
That observation is really not in any way justified on the record of the Government. In making appointments the Government have remembered Wales, I think, more than any previous Government. In any case, there cannot be more than one chairman.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that excessive delay would be harmful now that the Principality has had the prospect held before it; and is he aware that there are people seeking delay simply to create opposition to the proposed Council?
My hon. Friend is on a fair point. I think we have struck the happy medium between giving Wales an opportunity to express itself and that undue delay which would manifest itself in indecision.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that out of 180 authorities only about 12 have expressed their approval, about 60 said that this was better than nothing and more than 60 declined, while the rest expressed no opinion at all? In view of that, how can he say that the proposal has commended itself to the public opinion of Wales?
That is a very unfair and biased summary of the opinions of local authorities. I am surprised at the hon. Member. The fact is that 79 local authorities have expressed themselves in principle in favour of the scheme and 64 against and, if we take the matter on a population basis, the numbers in favour are overwhelming.
Summer Time (Date)
29.
asked the Lord President of the Council if he has any statement to make on Summer Time in 1949.
I have been asked to reply. The Government propose that Summer Time this year shall extend from 3rd April to 30th October. A draft of the Order in Council necessary under the Summer Time Act, 1947 will be laid before Parliament without delay.
Has the right hon. Gentleman given full consideration to the interest of food production, because especially in the Northern parts of the country, and in Scotland, this late Summer Time makes it very difficult for farmers to get in their produce? If he settles a term for a period of Summer Time, will he consider adding a little to the beginning and taking a little from the end, so that in any event it would cease by the first Sunday in October?
No, Sir. One has to consider the balance of interests in this matter. This represents a reduction in the period of Summer Time as compared with 1948 and, in view of the requirements of industries other than agriculture, I think this represents a fair compromise between all the interests concerned.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the late extension into October will impose a very severe handicap on Scottish producers because of our damp climate?
It is exactly the same period at the end as it was last year.
If Summer Time is to apply to Scotland, will the Minister be good enough to see that we get some Summer along with Summer Time?
Economic Affairs (Publicity)
30.
asked the Lord President of the Council what further steps he proposes to take to make the public aware of the crisis in economic affairs, to which reference was made in paragraph 30 of the Memorandum submitted to the O.E.E.C., Command Paper No. 7572.
I have been asked to reply. The Government have made known to the public an unprecedented amount of information about our economic affairs. We propose to continue our policy and to maintain the efforts that we are constantly making to increase further its effectiveness.
Why has not the Leader of the House replied to this Question, which was put to him? Only a few months ago he himself said that he was not aware of this crisis, so how could he expect the public to be aware of a crisis which he said did not exist? Why did he not reply to the Question?
Because I am responsible for the economic information which is given.
Then why did the Lord President accept the Question?
Is not a necessary first step towards carrying out the aim of the hon. Member the taking of a firm stand against the efforts of the Opposition to cut down expenditure on the information services of the Government?
National Finance
Tribunal Of Inquiry (Cost)
31.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the cost to the taxpayer, to date, of the Tribunal of Inquiry at Church House. Westminster.
The costs so far ascertained amount to approximately £9,000, but not all the items have yet been brought to charge.
Does not the Chancellor realise that this money has been spent to show that certain persons are not fit or fitted to be Ministers of the Crown?
I prefer to wait until the report of the Tribunal is made before making comments.
"Plain Words" (Distribution)
32.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many copies of "Plain Words" have been distributed
One hundred and sixty-nine thousand.
Will the Chancellor encourage Members of the Treasury Bench to read this book so that they may always prefer plain English to official jargon?
I have, and I hope that people who put down Questions will also read it.
Could the Chancellor say how this Question could have been put in plainer English?
I am not suggesting that this Question is wrong but that other Questions are.
Purchase Fax
33.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has reconsidered the provisions of S.I., 1948, No. 2398, which relates to Purchase Tax on floor coverings; and what action he has taken to amend it.
In accordance with the undertaking given by my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary on 13th December, I have carefully reconsidered this question. But I am not convinced of the necessity of amending this Order at present.
Will the Chancellor call a conference of the various parties affected by this Order, with a view to trying to make an improvement in it.
There was discussion with all those affected by it before I arrived at my decision.
Is the Chancellor aware that in a Debate in this House the Minister responsible for answering on behalf of the Government admitted that there was something wrong with it? In view of that how is the Chancellor able to reconcile his present statement with what was said previously by the Minister to whom I have referred.
I have made full inquiries and my conclusions are those which I have given.
45.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that married women who have their wedding rings remodelled in order to be able to continue wearing them in later life are being charged 100 per cent. Purchase Tax on the wholesale value of the remodelled ring, even where no extra material is used; and whether he will consider amending the law in this respect.
No, Sir. In such a case under Section 21 of the Finance Act, 1945, tax is payable only on the jeweller's charge for remodelling the ring.
Will not my right hon. and learned Friend consider altering this Section of the Act in order to help those married women who cannot afford to buy a new wedding ring when they out-grow their old one, and who when they try to "make do and mend" are taxed to the tune of 100 per cent.?
It would be a very small matter indeed, if it is only the charge for remodelling the ring.
Would not the Chancellor adopt the same method here which operates in the case of fur garments, which are remodelled and no tax is charged?
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that in the case of one example which I sent him the tax was 10s. 6d. and that that is not a small amount to a working class woman?
It must have been a very excessive charge.
Entertainment Duty (Scottish Football League)
34.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his negotiations with the Scottish Football League have now been concluded; and if he is now satisfied that the Entertainment Tax concessions in the 1946 and 1948 Budgets will be passed on at the gate to the spectators.
I have impressed upon the representatives of the Scottish football clubs, that my attitude on questions of modifying indirect taxation was bound to depend upon whether remissions reached those for whom they were intended, and I have no doubt that they appreciated the significance of what I said.
Income Tax
35.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why officials of nationalised industries are not to be called upon to make detailed justifications of their expense allowances to the Inland Revenue authorities in the same way as employees of private firms.
The hon. Member is misinformed. Officials of the nationalised industries will be dealt with in the same way as directors and employees generally.
Will they have to make individual returns of their expenses in exactly the same way as employees of private concerns?
In exactly the same way.
36.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what grounds the Inland Revenue authorities agreed to recognise the Society for Cultural Relations with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as an educational charity, thus enabling it to reclaim Income Tax on contributions made under a deed of covenant.
I cannot give information regarding the taxation treatment of individual cases.
Does not the Chancellor consider that however desirable it may be in normal circumstances to encourage cultural relations between two countries, under conditions of the cold war, to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has himself made frequent reference lately, it is highly undesirable to ask the British taxpayer to subsidise what is frankly pro-Soviet propaganda?
I still cannot give information on an individual tax case.
Was this decision taken by the Board of Inland Revenue without the intervention of the political chief of the department?
I am afraid that the hon. Member cannot even be told if there was a decision.
40 and 46.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) how far his regulations permit subscriptions and donations to political party funds or for other political purposes to be deducted as admissible trading expenses in computing profits for the purposes of Income Tax and Profits Tax;
(2) whether he is aware that circulars have been sent by the Midland Industrialists Advisory Council to company chairmen inviting contributions from their businesses for political purposes; how far his regulations permit such contributions to be admitted as trading expenses; and what steps are taken by Inspectors of Taxes to ensure that they are properly accounted for and do not escape tax liability.I have seen the circular to which my hon. Friend refers. Subscriptions or donations by traders for political purposes are not permitted to be deducted in computing profits for the purposes of Income Tax or Profits Tax, and Inspectors of Taxes can be relied upon to challenge any such item which they find in examining a trader's accounts.
Is the Chancellor aware that I hold in my hand evidence that the bulk of Conservative funds come not from contributions from individual collectors, but from industrial profits? Will he therefore take care to see that the Inland Revenue make sure that these are properly accounted for? Would it not be more honest if the Conservative Party appealed for funds under its own name?
If a contribution is made accompanied by a slip saying that it is a contribution to fight against municipal trading when the letter to which it is attached shows that it is one to a fund for Conservative candidates, would that count as a donation to a political party?
Perhaps my hon. Friend would put a specific case to me, and then I might be able to give him an answer.
Will the Chancellor arrange to have the evidence produced by the hon. Member circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
Would the Chancellor deny that Cooperative profits find their way into the treasury of the Socialist Party?
I am afraid that I have no knowledge of whether they do or do not.
Is the Chancellor aware that the regulations regarding Income Tax on political party funds were made in the first place by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill)? Has not the time come for some reconsideration of the plans which the right hon. Gentleman then made?
I think that they are quite satisfactory.
Imports (Luxuries)
37.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the specific luxuries the import of which he has notified the French Government will in future be restricted or forbidden.
No statement such as the hon. Member mentions has been made to the French Government.
Special Contributions (Interest)
38.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will include in the next Finance Bill a provision to deprive the Commissioners of Inland Revenue of the power to charge interest on any special contribution which has not been assessed, and to require them to refund any interest already so charged.
No, Sir.
Is the Chancellor aware that the net yield obtainable on the money before assessment and payment is far less than the interest demanded? How can he defend a situation whereby the longer the Treasury is in arrear with the assessments the more interest they get and the more money the taxpayer loses?
This question was raised and was very effectively defended when the House of Commons put the provision into the Measure.
Is it not a fact that the arrears of assessment are much greater than was ever hinted to the House of Commons last summer, and, therefore, is not the position of the taxpayer much more difficult than anyone ever thought that it would be in this respect?
No. I cannot accept that statement at all.
A constituent of mine wished to pay something on account in order to avoid paying interest on his assessment for special contribution. The local tax office refused to give him any assistance and refused to tell him what he could do to avoid payment of interest. How does the Chancellor defend that position?
That seems to be quite wrong, and if the hon. Member will send me particulars I will have the matter looked into.
Is the Chancellor aware that where contributions have been made on time his officials have in some cases not even taken the trouble to acknowledge their receipt?
How has the Chancellor been able in this case to foreshadow his Budget statement?
That is a matter which the hon. Member will no doubt see when I come to make it.
Anglo-Egyptian Negotiations
41.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what amount of sterling is involved in the renewal of the Financial Agreement with the Government of Egypt, originally signed in June, 1947; and to what extent our unrequited exports will be affected by this Agreement.
Financial negotiations with Egypt are still in progress and I am not yet in a position to make any statement about them.
Will the Chancellor bear in mind that this considerable handicap to our economic recovery is no longer justified, and will he see that in any arrangements which he is initiating this economic recovery takes precedence over old war debts?
We shall bear all material matters in mind.
Balance Of Payments (White Paper)
42.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he is going to publish the balance of payments White Paper for 1948.
I would ask the hon. Member to await the Economic Survey for 1949, which will be published in March.
Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman think that a consistent series of statistical data on this all-important subject should be available at regular intervals?
I will certainly consider that question.
University Grants
43.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what non-recurrent capital grants have been paid to the universities during each of the years 1945–49; what are the major projects involved; and what are the total sums received by each university individually over the same period.
As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman satisfied that the rate of re-development is sufficient to look after the greatly increased body of students and incidentally to maintain the academic standards?
I think it is the greatest that can be achieved in the present economic circumstances.
Following is the answer:
The non-recurrent payments to the universities in each of the years referred to are as follow:
| £ | |
| 1945–46 | 620,895 |
| 1946–47 | 566,996 |
| 1947–48 | 1,920,508 |
| 1948–49 (to 14th January, 1949) | 1,980,686 |
The principal projects covered by these grants are the purchase of sites and buildings, the erection of new buildings (including new teaching blocks for science and technology and halls of residence) and the provision of new equipment.
The amounts paid to individual institutions have necessarily varied according to the opportunities for building and the degree of expansion of numbers in individual centres: the sums are as follow:
| £ | |
| Birmingham University | 292,485 |
| Bristol University | 230,521 |
| Cambridge University | 149,389 |
| Durham University | 504,011 |
| Exeter University College | 103,195 |
| Hull University College | 240,813 |
| Leeds University | 270,418 |
| Leicester University College | 213,902 |
| Liverpool University | 116,123 |
| London University | 1,283,348 |
| Manchester University | 148,851 |
| Manchester College of Technology | 6,000 |
| Nottingham University | 319,083 |
| Oxford University | 217,507 |
| Reading University | 215,645 |
| Sheffield University | 118,864 |
| Southampton University College | 138,058 |
| University of Wales | 185,756 |
| Aberdeen University | 44,404 |
| Edinburgh University | 34,958 |
| Glasgow University | 98,974 |
| Glasgow Royal Technical College | 1,958 |
| St. Andrews University | 154,822 |
44.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the new composition of the University Grants Committee.
I am circulating a list of the members of the University Grants Committee in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the list:
- Sir Walter Moberly, K.C.B., D.S.O., Litt.D. (Chairman).
- A. E. Trueman, Esq., D.Sc., F.R.S., F.G.S. (Deputy Chairman).
- Professor E. D. Adrian, O.M., F.R.S., M.A., M.D., F.R.C.P.
- Sir Charles Darwin, K.B.E.. M.C., F.R.S., Sc.D.
- Miss D. Dymond, M.A.
- H. L. Elvin, Esq., M.A.
- E. James, Esq., M.A., D. Phil., M.Sc. H. S. Magnay, Esq., M.A.
- Professor W. R. Niblett, B.A., B.Litt.
- Professor P. S. Noble, M.A.
- Professor D. Hughes Parry, M.A., LL.M.
- Professor G. W. Pickering, M.B., F.R.C.P.
- Professor E. K. Rideal, M.B.E., F.R.S.
- Professor H. G. Sanders, M.A., Ph.D.
- Professor J. C. Spence, M.C., M.D., F.R.C.P.
- Sir Alexander Murray Stephen, M.C., B.A.
- B. H. Sumner, Esq., M.A., F.B.A.
- Miss Barbara Wootton, M.A.
Trade And Commerce
Factories, Coatbridge
48.
asked the President of the Board of Trade when the factories in the industrial estate at Coat-bridge will be in operation; and if any efforts have yet been made to find tenants for these units.
The allocation of both factories has been approved in principle, and the prospective tenants are now engaged in final negotiations with Scottish Industrial Estates Limited. It may be possible for both factories to be in operation by about mid-1949, but the exact date will depend, among other things, on the requirements of the tenants.
Russia
49.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can now make a statement on the progress of the trade talks with Russia.
58.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement regarding the Anglo-Soviet trade agreement negotiations and list the difficulties that have prevented its completion.
The talks which began last May are still continuing and it would not be advisable to indicate the stage now reached in the negotiations.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that on general grounds these talks should be suspended until such time as the Berlin blockade has been lifted?
52.
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many tons of steel rails with the necessary fishplates, nut and bolts, have been delivered to the U.S.S.R., under the trade agreement of December, 1947; and when the complete order of 35,000 tons is likely to be delivered.
The total contracted for under Article II of the Agreement was 25,000 tons, not 35,000 tons. Of this quantity, I am informed that 22,480 tons of rails, together with appropriate accessories, have been delivered or are awaiting delivery. The remainder is due to be delivered very shortly.
53.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Soviet Government may, within the terms of the Anglo-Soviet Trade Agreement of December, 1947, purchase raw materials such as rubber, within the sterling area.
The Soviet Union is free to purchase for sterling any raw material in the sterling area whose export is not subject to control by the Government or Governments concerned.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it time that something was done to stop the export of potential war material to this aggressive State?
Clothes Rationing
50.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can now make a statement on clothes rationing.
My two advisory committees are meeting on 27th and 28th January, and I hope to make a statement shortly afterwards.
May I ask the President of the Board of Trade why he has turned down the advice of the leading clothing manufacturers, that in their opinion there are sufficient supplies to end clothes rationing by 28th February?
The leading clothing manufacturers, are, to say the least of it, divided on the question of whether clothes rationing should come to an end.
54.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that most export markets for many lines of clothing are approaching saturation point and that, in consequence, stocks are accumulating in this country, he will either terminate clothes rationing or drastically increase coupon values.
I propose to make a statement on clothes rationing shortly, but I must remind the hon. Member that total exports of apparel, and even more of cloth, are still rising, and that wholesale stocks fell by about 25 per cent. in the period from May to November, 1948.
Industrial Buildings, Portsmouth
51.
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many applications have been made to him since 6th August, 1947, for certificates under Section 14 (4) of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, for permission to erect industrial buildings having an aggregate floor space exceeding 5,000 square feet in the city of Portsmouth; and how many have been granted.
Since 1st July, 1948, when the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, came into force, five applications have been made for certificates under Section 14 (4) for permission to erect industrial buildings having an aggregate floor space exceeding 5,000 square feet in the city of Portsmouth. Four of these applications have been granted and the fifth is at present under consideration.
Cotton Industry
55.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has considered the statement made in his annual report, of which a copy has been sent to him, by the president of the Lancashire Cotton Corporation; and whether he will now take the necessary steps to consider favourably the re-opening of the Liverpool Cotton Exchange.
I have not received a copy of this report, but have seen a Press summary of it. When purchasing cotton, the Raw Cotton Commission are faced with currency difficulties in some markets and shortage of supplies or export restrictions in others. Whatever the arrangements for purchasing, these difficulties would exist, and I have no reason to suppose that the re-opening of the Liverpool Cotton Exchange, would assist matters in any way.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the leading personalities whose name was mentioned when the Liverpool Cotton Exchange was closed is a director of this new corporation that has now come out against it, and would he, therefore, himself reconsider the advisability of re-opening the Cotton Exchange at Liverpool and thus get over some of the handicaps that now exist?
I do not think that major changes of policy, for which no case whatever exists, should depend on the change in view of a single individual.
Why is it necessary to go on with this act of party spite which has been proved to cost us all so much?
I was not aware that there was any party spite in this measure. If the cost to which the right hon. Gentleman refers is the high cost of cotton I would remind him of what he is probably already aware, that the price of wool has increased even more than cotton and that wool is bought in a free market.
In view of the purposely deceptive last remark of the right hon. Gentleman, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.
Anglo-Polish Agreement
56.
asked the President of the Board of Trade details of the Anglo-Polish Trade Agreement.
The Anglo-Polish Trade Agreement was signed in Warsaw on Friday, 14th January. It is for the five year term 1949 to 1953 inclusive and provides for supplies from Poland, on an increasing scale, of bacon, eggs, other agricultural products and timber. The Polish Government has also agreed to make in these years certain payments in sterling to go towards meeting our claims in respect of nationalised property and pre-war indebtedness. The Agreement will be published as a White Paper as soon as possible.
As there is no evidence yet of reactionary barnyard fowls objecting to being fed on grain from Eastern Europe, would the right hon. Gentleman press on with this and similar agreements as soon as he possibly can?
We have already pressed on with this one and it was signed last week.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether cured herrings are specifically included in this Agreement?
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will await publication of the report, but subject to correction on this point, I rather think that herrings are included in the Agreement.
May I ask whether onions are included in this Agreement, and whether the approval of the Minister of Agriculture was obtained?
May I ask the Minister if, in view of the importance and the great desirability of this Agreement a statement can be made in this House repudiating the slanders that have been made from time to time against the Polish Government and the Polish leaders?
Would the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that within the terms of this Agreement feedingstuffs, as opposed to bacon and eggs and so forth, are also being included, or can be?
Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will await the report, which is being published in full.
Referring to a previous question, does that agreement apply to the importing of onions from Poland, and, if so, is the right hon. Gentleman aware, as the Minister of Agriculture ought to be, that hundreds of tons of British onions are at this moment unsold in our own country?
Since I have already asked hon. Members to await the publication of the report perhaps, before he puts hypothetical supplementary questions on it the hon. Member will wait and see whether onions are included.
Arising out of that last remark, how can it be hypothetical when the Press said there was in fact provision for onions?
While it is important and we should be pleased to have some bacon and eggs, would the Minister please bear in mind that it is most important to encourage farmers and smallholders to have pigs on their land?
Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman would put questions on this side of things to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture.
May I ask the President of the Board of Trade if we are to take it in future that Press statements emanating from the Board of Trade about trade agreements are not to be believed?
Answer.
I said "Yes" three times. Perhaps I could not be heard because of the noise coming from hon. Members opposite.
The question asked was whether we are to take it that statements emanating from the Board of Trade are not to be believed? To which I gather the answer is "Yes"—three times.
I thought that the question was whether they were to be believed, and the answer to that is certainly "Yes."
Export Target Figures
57.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will now state the revised principal export target figures for the year 1949.
The provisional export targets for end 1949 announced on 25th October have been under discussion with the industries concerned, and I expect to make a further announcement at the end of this month or early in February.
Middle East
Palestine (Situation)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement of policy or fact to make upon the recent events in the Middle East concerning Palestine.
His Majesty's Government fully realise the interest. of the House in the recent events in the Middle East and particularly in Palestine and naturally in view of the attacks made on them they desire to make a full statement to the House and to do so as soon as possible. But at this very moment delicate negotiations are being carried on at Rhodes between Jewish and Egyptian representatives. There are also other discussions going on with other contestants. We have been using all our influence in conjunction with the United States in the hope of arriving at a complete armistice between the Jews and the Arabs. The reports we are receiving indicate that good progress is being made and we are all particularly eager to contribute to the success of these talks by every possible means.
I am sure the House will agree with me that any discussion of these problems regarding Palestine and the Middle East might have a disturbing effect. The main objective of all concerned must be to secure a peaceful settlement of the whole Palestine question as soon as possible, in the interests both of the contestants and of the stability of the Middle East. We believe that we can best contribute to this at the present stage by postponing discussion of these matters. Fighting has ceased on all fronts and we sincerely trust that this overall truce will be maintained. In the light of these negotiations there is one matter upon which we desire to make an announcement. It is well known that certain Jewish immigrants of military age were detained in Cyprus. We had been discussing the position of these immigrants with the parties concerned and the more favourable situation that has now arisen has permitted us to send a message to the Acting Mediator announcing that we are prepared to allow these men of military age to leave as soon as the Jews provide transport for them. As the negotiations to which I have referred make progress, His Majesty's Government will carefully watch them, and we shall take such further steps as may be necessary in the hope of facilitating peace and understanding and I hope to be in a position to make a further and fuller statement next week.I fear that we shall have to ask for a Debate next week and no doubt it would be very satisfactory if that were prefaced by a further statement by the right hon. Gentleman. I venture to put to you, Sir, that the House must not be prevented from discussing matters of real and burning interest by vague statements of great improvements that are on the way and important delicate discussions which are going on. Nor do I think this last statement which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman—the announcement which he has just made of the release of large, or considerable numbers, of Jewish immigrants of fighting age from Cyprus in order that they should join the Jewish Forces in Palestine—fits in very well with the drastic military action which he has taken in other directions. Is he not in fact reinforcing both sides at once?
I wish to ask the Leader of the House whether we can take it for granted that there will be a Debate on this subject offered to the House early next week? Should he see his way to grant such a request, which we are prepared to press, that in no ways stands in the path of any Motion for the Adjournment which may be made on some precise topic such as the actual orders given to the British airplanes which were cast away the other day. I hope he will answer that question with the clear understanding that we should certainly support a Motion for the precise discussion of this particular topic of the orders given to the airplanes and what actually happened, should it be raised from another quarter.There is another question which I think ought to be answered in the first instance. With regard to the release of the men in Cyprus, I have been endeavouring to deal with this problem for some time. I should like to explain, without going into details, that in nearly all this business I have been handicapped by arrangements with other people. I have no desire to preserve my reputation: I am more interested in doing things to get peace.
Transjordan (British Forces)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the reasons why British Armed Forces have been sent to Transjordan, Egypt and/or Palestine, areas where under the decision of the Security Council of 29th May, 1948, no Armed Forces were to be sent, and whether the prior consent of the Security Council was obtained before such Armed Forces were sent; and further, whether he will give an assurance that British Armed Forces will not be ordered to engage in military operations in this area and that no further Armed Forces will be sent into this area.
Having regard to the statement I have just made, I would deprecate having to go into details regarding the circumstances which led the Government of Transjordan to ask, under the Anglo-Transjordan Treaty, for the stationing of British Forces at Aqaba. His Majesty's Government took the view that under the Treaty this was a request we could not refuse in the light of all the circumstances and events at that moment.
As these troops were sent to Transjordan territory and no troops have been sent to Palestine, there was no obligation upon us to seek the assent of the Security Council. As regards the second part of the Question, our future action will be determined by our treaty obligations and United Nations decisions. We have no obligation or intention to engage in any offensive or aggressive action. We hope that the truce which now exists will be maintained and that no further question of military operations will arise.Obviously there will have to be a much fuller statement than that which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman. I heard what the right hon. Gentleman said in reply to the earlier Question put to him, but this matter is very urgent. It is one which is causing very grave anxiety. Is it not possible, Mr. Speaker, in order to avoid having to take any other action, to have a promise made that this question can be debated tomorrow or Thursday or on both days? There is real, grave anxiety not only throughout the country but throughout the world with regard to the present position. I urge that upon the right hon. Gentleman.
I am naturally anxious to meet the wishes and convenience of the House. I thought myself that, if there was a Debate next week, it would be better than having one today, but I am not prejudicing any issue that may be raised with you, Mr. Speaker, although, perhaps, we could get a tidier or more comprehensive Debate if we had it next week. I should be happy to arrange through the usual channels that that should take place. If I may say so, I think it would be too early tomorrow. Things are moving, and let us hope that the situation will be better. I really think that it would be better and more expedient in the public interest for the Debate to take place on a suitable date next week, as to which we should be happy to enter into conversations through the usual channels.
I want to ask two questions arising out of the Foreign Secretary's statement: first, whether the Lord President is aware that there is a Debate in another place tomorrow upon this very matter, and why should that other place have priority over this House? Secondly, even if that be so, will the right hon. Gentleman say, with the responsibility of the Cabinet, that, in the interests of peace, and lest there should be anything said which might in any way jeopardise that peace, it is in the interests of everybody that this Debate should not take place until next week? Will they take that responsibility?
That is a perfectly fair question, and, on behalf of the Government, I do give a statement and an assurance to the House that, in our opinion, from the point of view of peace and a satisfactory settlement, it would be more satisfactory if the Debate took place next week. With regard to the proceedings in another place tomorrow, I am conscious of the point which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has raised. I think it will be the case, quite probably, that whilst there will be a Debate on Foreign Affairs, I am very doubtful whether it will cover this particular ground, at any rate, to any material extent.
We are content on this side of the House that the Debate should take place next week. May I ask, however, whether we can have an assurance from the Foreign Secretary that, in the interval, having gone to Aqaba, we do not scuttle from it under any threat of mere violence? We would like to have that assurance. May I also ask if the Foreign Secretary will consider whether a British representative to the de facto Government of Israel is not greatly needed to be sent at the present time?
Regarding the second part of the question all these matters are under discussion.
They were a month ago, too.
That may be, but the right hon. Gentleman has been in office as well as I have, and he knows that these things are not easy. The only thing that I regret in my life is that I have never had the chance—possibly it will be given to me some day—to sit where the right hon. Gentleman is and have a go at him sitting here. I am perfectly sure that I should have his assistance in most ways, but what I am sometimes afraid of is that his indiscretions will sentence me to this side for life. In any case, on this question of recognition, it is not an easy matter, and we cannot take one State in an isolated way. There is another part of the world where the whole question of de facto recognition has created very serious trouble.
Where?
In Indonesia, where very serious troubles and very great difficulties have arisen on questions of sovereignty and so forth. Therefore, it is not an easy matter, and we have been trying to arrive at an arrangement on the basis of the United Nations decisions. We are only trying to get this matter cleared up. With regard to scuttling, I can think the right hon. Gentleman knows me well enough to realise that I am almost too fat to scuttle anywhere.
While appreciating the belated consent to be given to the victims in Cyprus to proceed to Israel, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether, pending the Debate, he will see to it that no steps are taken of a unilateral nature which will further complicate the position, and that no troops or forces will be sent to that part of the world in order to encourage, or to appear to encourage, an attitude against Israel which is not the correct one, and will he definitely support the negotiations taking place between the two interested parties?
My policy since I have been in office has always been that this problem will never be settled—I repeat will never be settled—unless by agreement between the two parties. It has been my policy that force on either side will not finally settle it. We shall have trouble for years if we do not recognise that fact. I have been encouraging, helping and trying to get the negotiations going. On the other hand, there will be no need to move any troops at all, and no need to do anything, if both sides now keep the truce, and I shall be against either side that breaks it.
May we be assured that the Foreign Secretary will feel under no restrictions or impediments for taking any necessary measures to procure the safety and effective action of the troops which the Government have sent to Aqaba, and that that does not depend upon any other issue than what is considered necessary by His Majesty's Government?
I can give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance.
Thank you.
May I ask the Foreign Secretary if he can give an assurance that the Commanding Officer in the Canal Zone has been left entirely responsible for looking after the local security of the British troops in the Canal Zone?
May I ask the Foreign Secretary if it is not the case that Transjordan is not in these discussions for an armistice, and would it not strengthen the possibility of an armistice and of lasting peace, particularly with Transjordan, if there were de facto recognition of the Israeli Government?
Transjordan was the first country to make an armistice; they entered into it. They have never invaded—[Interruption.] All the stuff which the hon. Gentleman gets is not correct.
Hear, hear.
You are pals again.
Never mind whether they are pals or enemies; I do not mind.
Division No. 39.)
| AYES
| [3.50 p.m
|
| Acland, Sir Richard | Bellenger, Rt. Hon F. J. | Bruce, Maj. D. W. T. |
| Adams, Richard (Balham) | Benson, G. | Burke, W. A. |
| Albu, A. H. | Berry, H. | Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.) |
| Alexander, Rt, Hon. A. V. | Beswick, F. | Byers, Frank |
| Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) | Bevin, Rt. Hon. E. (Wandsworth, C.) | Callaghan, James |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Bing, G. H. C. | Carmichael, James |
| Alpass, J. H. | Binns, J. | Castle, Mrs. B. A. |
| Anderson, A. (Motherwell) | Blackburn, A. R. | Chamberlain, R. A. |
| Attewell, H. C. | Blenkinsop, A. | Champion, A. J. |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon C. R. | Blyton, W. R. | Chater, D. |
| Austin, H. Lewis | Boardman, H. | Chetwynd, G. R. |
| Ayles, W. H. | Bottomley, A. G. | Cluse, W. S. |
| Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B. | Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W. | Cocks, F. S. |
| Bacon, Miss. A. | Bowen, R. | Collick, P. |
| Balfour, A. | Braddock, T. (Mitcham) | Collindridge, F. |
| Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. | Bramall, E. A. | Colman, Miss. G. M. |
| Barstow, P. G. | Brook, D. (Halifax) | Comyns, Dr. L. |
| Bartlett, V. | Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) | Cook, T. F. |
| Barton, C. | Brown, George (Belper) | Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G. |
| Battley, J. R. | Brown, T. J. (Ince) | Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.) |
| Bechervaise, A. E. | Brown, W. J. (Rugby) | Corlett, Dr. J. |
The fact is that Transjordan troops have never yet entered any territory allocated to the Israelis by the United Nations.
May 1 ask the Foreign Secretary one question regarding his statement about Cyprus? Does he say that the release of these men is taking place with Arab consent?
No. They were kept there without Arab consent, and without the Arabs asking for it. They were dealt with under entirely different arrangements.
While endorsing what my right hon. Friend has said about there never having been an invasion from Transjordan into the area allotted by the United Nations to Israel, is it not equally true that there has never been any incursion from the State of Israel into any part of Transjordan, and in these circumstances was it necessary to send any troops at all?
This is where we get into details. The fact is that there was reconnaissance the other way, and very grave danger was felt. I do not want to say any more, and, unless I am provoked, I will not say any more.
Business Of The House
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House)."— [The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes. 292 Noes, 148.
| Cove, W. G. | Jeger, G. (Winchester) | Rees-Williams. D. R. |
| Crawley, A. | Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras. S. E.) | Reeves, J. |
| Crossman, R. H. S. | Jenkins, R. H. | Reid, T. (Swindon) |
| Cullen, Mrs. A. | Jones. Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley) | Rhodes, H. |
| Daines, P. | Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool) | Ridealgh, Mrs. M. |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery) | Keenan, W. | Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth) |
| Davies, Edward (Burslem) | Kendall, W. D. | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Kenyon, C | Roberts, W (Cumberland, N) |
| Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.) | King, E. M. | Ross, William (Kilmarnock) |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Kinley, J | Royle. C |
| de Freitas, Geoffrey | Kirby, B. V. | Sargood, R. |
| Delargy, H. J. | Kirkwood, Rt. Hon. S. | Scott-Elliott, W. |
| Dobbie, W. | Lavers, S. | Sharp, Granville |
| Dodds, N. N. | Lawson, Rt. Hon. J J | Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Driberg, T. E. N. | Lee, F. (Hulme) | Shurmer, P. |
| Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich) | Lee, Miss. J. (Cannock) | Silverman, J. (Erdington) |
| Dumpleton, C. W. | Leslie, J. R. | Silverman, S. S. (Nelson) |
| Dye, S. | Levy, B. W. | Skeffington-Lodge. T C |
| Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C | Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton) | Skinnard, F. W. |
| Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Lewis, J. (Bolton) | Smith, Ellis (Stoke) |
| Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly) | Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Smith, H N (Nottingham, S) |
| Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel) | Lipson D. L. | Smith, S. H. (Hull. S W) |
| Evans, Albert (Islington, W.) | Lipton, Lt Col M | Snow, J W |
| Evans, E. (Lowestoft) | Logan, D. G. | Solley, L. J. |
| Evans, John (Ogmore) | Longden, F | Sparks, J A |
| Ewart, R. | Lyne, A. W. | Stamford, W |
| Farthing, W. J. | McEntee, V. La. T | Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E) |
| Fernyhough, E | McGhee, H G | Strauss, Rt Hon G R (Lambern) |
| Field, Capt W. J. | McGovern, J | Stross, Dr B |
| Fletcher, E G M (Islington. E.) | Mack, J. D. | Stubbs, A. E. |
| Follick, M. | McKinlay, A S | Summerskill, Dr Edot |
| Foot, M M. | McLeavy, F | Swingler, S |
| Forman, J. C. | McNeil, Rt. Hon. H | Sylvester, G O |
| Fraser, T. (Hamilton) | MacPherson, M (Stirling) | Symonds, A L |
| Freeman, Peter (Newport) | Macpherson, T (Romford) | Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield) |
| Gallacher, W | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Taylor, R J (Morpeth) |
| Ganley, Mrs. C. S. | Mallalieu, J P W (Huddersfield) | Taylor, Dr S (Barnet) |
| George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey) | Mann, Mrs. J | Thomas, D E (Aberdare) |
| Gibson, C W | Manning, C. (Camberwell, N) | Thomas, George (Cardiff) |
| Gilzean, A | Manning, Mrs L (Epping) | Thomas, I O (Wrekin) |
| Glanville, J. E. (Consett) | Marquand, H A | Thomas, John R (Dover) |
| Gordon-Walker, P. C | Mathers, Rt Hon George | Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) |
| Granville, E. (Eye) | Mayhew, C P | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Greenwood, A W J (Heywood) | Middleton, Mrs L | Titterington, M F |
| Grenfell, D. R | Millington, Wing-Comdr E R | Tolley, L. |
| Grey, C. F. | Mitchison, G. R. | Tomlinson, Rt. Hon G |
| Grierson, E. | Monslow, W. | Turner-Samuels, M |
| Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) | Moody, A S. | Vernon, Maj W F |
| Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly) | Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen) | Viant, S. P. |
| Griffiths, W D. (Moss Side) | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H (Lewisham, E) | Wadsworth, G. |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden | Moyle, A. | Wallace, G D (Chislehurst) |
| Guy, W. H. | Murray, J D | Wallace, H W (Walthamstow E) |
| Haire, John E. (Wycombe) | Naylor, T. E. | Warbey, W N |
| Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil | Neal, H. (Claycross) | Watson, W M |
| Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R | Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford) | Webb, M. (Bradford, C) |
| Harrison, J. | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P J (Derby) | Weitzman, D |
| Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Oliver, G. H. | Wells, P L (Faversham) |
| Haworth, J. | Orbach, M | West, D. G. |
| Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford) | Paget, R. T. | Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J T (Edinb'gh. E.) |
| Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) | Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth) | White, H (Derbyshire, N.E.) |
| Herbison, Miss. M | Palmer, A M F | Whiteley, Rt. Hon W |
| Hicks, G. | Parker, J. | Wigg, George |
| Holman, P | Parkin, B. T. | Wilcock, Group-Capt C A B |
| Holmes, H E (Hemsworth) | Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe) | Willey, F T (Sunderland) |
| Horabin, T. L. | Paton, J (Norwich) | Willey, O G. (Cleveland) |
| Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.) | Pearson, A | Williams, R W (Wigan) |
| Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr) | Piratin, P. | Williams, Rt. Hon. T (Don Valley) |
| Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Poole, Cecil (Lichfield) | Williams, W R (Heston) |
| Hughes, H. D. (W'Iverh'pton, W.) | Popplewell, E. | Willis, E |
| Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme) | Porter, E. (Warrington) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J H |
| Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) | Porter, G. (Leeds) | Wise, Major F. J |
| Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) | Pritt, D. N. | Woods, G. S |
| Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool) | Proctor, W. T | Yates, V. F |
| Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.) | Pryde, D. J. | Young, Sir R (Newton) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. | Randall, H. E. | Zilliacus, K. |
| Janner, B. | Ranger, J. | |
| Jay, D P T | Rankin, J | TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
|
| Mr. Simmons and Mr. Wilkins. |
NOES
| ||
| Agnew, Cmdr. P. G. | Glyn, Sir R. | Nicholson, G. |
| Amory, D. Heathcoat | Gomme-Duncan, Col A | Noble, Comdr. A. H. P |
| Assheton, Rt. Hon. R | Gridley, Sir A. | Odey, G. W. |
| Astor, Hon. M. | Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley) | Orr-Ewing, I. L |
| Baldwin, A. E. | Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) | Osborne, C. |
| Barlow, Sir J | Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V. | Peake, Rt. Hon. O |
| Baxter, A. B. | Haughton, S. G. | Pitman, I. J. |
| Beamish, Maj. T. V H | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Sir C | Price-White, Lt.-Col. D. |
| Beechman, N. A. | Henderson, John (Cathcart) | Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. |
| Bennett, Sir P. | Herbert, Sir A. P. | Roberts, H. (Handsworth) |
| Birch, Nigel | Hinchingbrooke, Viscount | Robertson, Sir D (Streatham) |
| Boothby, R | Hollis, M C | Robinson, Roland |
| Bossom, A. C. | Hope, Lord J. | Ropner, Col. L. |
| Bower, N. | Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J | Savory, Prof. D. L |
| Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. | Hurd, A. | Scott, Lord W. |
| Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G | Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.) | Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow) |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. | Jeffreys, General Sir G. | Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W. |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Jennings, R. | Smith, E. P. (Ashford) |
| Bullock, Capt. M | Joynson-Hicks, Hon L. W | Smithers, Sir W |
| Butcher, H. W. | Keeling, E H. | Snadden, W M. |
| Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A (S'ffr'n W'ld'n) | Lancaster, Col. C G | Spearman, A C M |
| Carson, E. | Langford-Holt, J | Spence, H. R. |
| Challen, C | Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. O |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S | Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. | Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. |
| Clarke, Col. R. S. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Strauss, Henry (English Universities) |
| Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G | Lindsay, M. (Solihull) | Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray) |
| Cooper-Key, E. M. | Lloyd, Maj Guy (Renfrew, E.) | S'udholme, H. G. |
| Crookshank, Cap. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. | Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral) | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Crowder, Capt. John E | Low, A. R. W. | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) |
| Cuthbert, W. N. | Lucas, Major Sir J | Taylor, Vice-Adm E. A. (P'dd't'n', S.) |
| Darling, Sir W. Y. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. | Teeling, William |
| Davidson, Viscountess | MacAndrew, Col. Sir C | Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) |
| De la Bère, R | McCallum, Maj. D. | Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth) |
| Digby, S. W. | McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S | Thornton-Kemsley, C N |
| Dodds-Parker, A. D | Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight) | Touche, G. C. |
| Dower, Col. A. V G (Penrith) | McFarlane, C. S. | Turton, R. H. |
| Drayson, G B | Mackeson, Brig. H R | Vane W. M F |
| Drewe, C. | McKie, J. H. (Galloway) | Wakefield, Sir W W |
| Dugdale, Maj. Sir T (Richmond) | MacLeod, J. | Ward, Hon G. R |
| Duthie, W. S. | Macmillan, Rt. Hon Harold (Bromley) | Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie |
| Eccles, D. M. | Macpherson, N. (Dumfries) | White, Sir D. (Fareham) |
| Eden, Rt. Hon A | Manningham-Buller, R. E. | White, J. B. (Canterbury) |
| Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Walter | Marlowe, A. A H. | Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge) |
| Erroll, F. J. | Marsden, Capt. A | Winterton, Rt Hon Earl |
| Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L | Marshall, D. (Bodmin) | York, C. |
| Fletcher, W. (Bury) | Medlicott, Brigadier F | Young, Sir A S L. (Partick) |
| Fox, Sir G. | Mellor, Sir J. | |
| Gage, C. | Molson, A H. E. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
|
| Galbraith, Comdr. T. D. (Pollok) | Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T | Major Conant and |
| Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead') | Morris-Jones, Sir H. | Colonel Wheatley. |
| Gates, Maj. E E | Mott-Radclyffe, C E | |
Private Members' Bills
4.0 p.m.
:I beg to move,
The Prime Minister in his speech during the Debate on the Address on the first day of the present Session, and I myself on the second day, in moving the Motion to take the time of the House for Government business until Christmas, informed the House of the Government's proposals in relation to Private Members' time. The proposal is to set apart seven Fridays for the Second Readings of Private Members' Bills, the priority of which will be determined by a ballot. If the House agrees to this Motion the first of these will be Friday, 11th February, and the last of the seven consecutive Fridays will be 15th March. The Government propose to set apart three Fridays, if required, for the consideration of Private Members' Bills which have reached their final stages. These Fridays will occur after the Whitsun Recess; the first will be Friday, 24th June and the last Friday, 8th July. At the beginning of the Session the Government suggested—and I think it was generally acceptable to the House—that the decision having been taken to allow time for Private Members' Bills, it was right and proper to give adequate notice in order that hon. Members could prepare the drafts of the Bills that they would wish to submit to the House if they were successful in the ballot. For this reason we postponed the days until the New Year. We consulted the parties through the usual channels about the timing of the ballot and the first day for the Second Reading of Bills, and it was agreed that it would be more convenient not to take the ballot during this present week, which would have been the normal time, but to postpone it until next week in order to give to all Members who wish to take part in the ballot, time to enter their names in the ballot list. Before the war when Private Members enjoyed these facilities, the first Friday for the consideration of Bills followed a week after the date of presentation of Bills, and sometimes there was a matter of only a few days' notice of the first Bill to be taken. We felt that it would be more convenient generally to the House if longer notice were given, and for this reason we proposed that there should be a fortnight's interval between the date of the presentation of the Private Members' Bills and the first Friday for Second Reading. At the end of the business statement made on Thursday, 16th December last, I informed the House briefly of the arrangements which Mr. Speaker would make for the holding of the ballot to determine priority for Private Members' Bills. It may be unnecessary to repeat this information at this stage. We are pleased to be able to restore Private Members' rights in regard to Bills during the present Session. After a lapse of 10 years, Private Members will be able themselves to initiate legislation. As yet we know nothing of the nature of the Measures which will come forward, nor the reaction of the House towards the Measures that come forward. We shall look forward to interesting discussions on these Bills. The hon. Members drawing the first seven places will be sure of first places for their Bills. The next seven will take second places, and so on according to the number drawn. A first place Bill may not occupy all the time, and so there may be opportunity for the others, or, at any rate, some of them. The number of Fridays which we are prepared to set apart for Bills is, as the House is aware, based upon the recommendation made by the Select Committee on Procedure which reported in 1946. It will be noted from the terms of the Motion that the facilities which we are granting are confined to Private Members' Bills presented under the ballot arrangements. We do not propose to provide for the presentation of Private Members' Bills after the ballot has been taken, either in the usual way or under the Ten-minute Rule. Hon. Members will have their full opportunity under the ballot, and they have had long notice of our intentions to think out suitable Bills. After very careful consideration, we came to the conclusion that there would be no point or value in allowing Bills subsequent to the ballot for which time could not be given. We rest ourselves upon the allocation of a definite number of days and considering on those days Bills presented as a result of the ballot. I think that adequately states the case for the Motion which I commend to the favourable attention of the House."That—(1) save as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of this order, Government business shall have precedence at every sitting for the remainder of the Session; (2) Public Bills other than Government Bills shall have precedence over Government business on Friday, 11th February and on the six next succeeding Fridays; (3) on and after Friday, 24th June Public Bills other than Government Bills shall be arranged on the Order Paper in the following order: Considerations of Lords Amendments, Third Readings, Considerations of Report not already entered upon and adjourned proceedings on Consideration; and Bills so arranged shall have precedence over Government business on Friday, 24th June and on the two next succeeding Fridays; (4) the ballot for unofficial Members' Bills shall be held on Thursday, 27th January under arrangements to be made by Mr. Speaker and the Bills shall be introduced at the commencement of public business on Friday, 28th January; and (5) for the remainder of the Session no Public Bills other than Government Bills or Bills introduced under paragraph (4) of this Order shall be introduced."
Will there be any limit to the number of Bills which may be presented on a Friday?
If it is a question of whether there is any limit, and if the hon. Gentleman is referring to Bills now intended to be moved on future dates, I understand that that is not so, subject to any views that Mr. Speaker may have.
That is rather important. How many names will be allowed to be drawn in the first ballot? That opens up the whole point of the answer to my hon. Friend's question—the number of Bills which might be introduced subject to time being available on any particular Friday.
I think that this, at any rate, is a matter for Mr. Speaker.
I think the answer is this: If the hon. Member wants to ballot for any number of Bills, the answer is one Member one Bill, but any number of Members can ballot. I think there is no limit to that. I give a good number of lucky numbers, so to speak, so that one hopes that most Members will get a fair chance.
That is my point, Mr. Speaker. Would it be possible say to have 30 or 40 names taken out of the ballot on Thursday so as to give an average of five Bills on the seven Fridays? One never knows, people drop out and Bills drop, and so on.
I am not quite sure that I remember the procedure, but from what happened before I think we had three Bills each Friday. There were so many Fridays, and there would be an average of three Bills for every Friday on which Bills were to be introduced. I think that is about as far and as wide as one can go.
I am sorry to stress this point, but in those days we had also Bills introduced by presentation—they were simply put on the Order Paper—which it was quite possible to get in on a Friday supposing three Bills had fallen.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is now anticipating the Amendment which is going to he moved from the Opposition Front Bench.
Since there will be only seven Fridays and since it is quite conceivable that on seven Fridays we could deal with more than seven Bills, will the Member who is lucky in the ballot be able to choose whether he will have his Bill first on one or other of the seven Fridays, or would the Member who draws number three be relegated to introducing the third Bill on the first Friday with no prospect of ever doing so?
The first seven are the lucky seven and. if they are wise, they will choose the seven Fridays. The first seven get the first places, if the hon. Members are up to the mark.
In the old days one might come out the hundredth in the ballot but still get a Bill presented. What I want to know is whether that right still exists.
I am afraid I do not follow the hon. Member's point.
In the old days one might be fiftieth or sixtieth in the ballot but one could still present the Bill and then have a chance—a very remote chance it is true, but there was some virtue in having the Bill presented and printed, whether there was any chance of getting it through or not.
There are seven Fridays and 21 Bills, at least, will be lucky in the ballot. In the old days if one had a number over 21—that is, outside the lucky number in the ballot—the Bill was still introduced and printed. That is not stated in this Motion. It is, I believe, in the Amendment which will shortly be moved and therefore it is not a matter which I can now take into consideration.
4.12 p.m.
We are much obliged to you, Sir, for the help and guidance you have given us in answer to the questions of my hon. Friends. We shall, of course, take very careful note of it.
I cannot say that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House has been very forthcoming in the Motion which he has moved. I hope it will not seem that I am being too schoolmasterish if I remind some hon. Members of what it is we are dealing with today. It is the restoration of some measure of the Private Members' time which has been taken from us for many years as a result of the war and of the post-war situation. We are only taking back to ourselves something which is our own right. This is not a great concession on the part of the Government at all. In fact, if we look into the history of this affair we find that until fairly recent times all the time of the House belonged to Private Members. It was only by the kindness of the Private Members that the Government were given any time at all. Times change, and the Government acquired certain time by Standing Orders, although by Standing Orders certain of the time was still left to Private Members. It is a part of that small fragment which we are to get back this Session. Private Members' time, before it was taken away as a result of the war, consisted of time for Motions and time for Bills. This is a matter which was carefully considered by the Select Committee on Procedure at the beginning of this Parliament. The Report of that Committee suggested to this House certain alterations in the allocation of that time and more particularly that the restoration of Private Members' time should be such that there should be 20 Fridays, instead of having Motions debated in the middle of the week which rather upsets the general flow of business. There was a good deal to be said for that. The Report recommended that 20 Fridays should be allocated to Private Members, half of them to Motions and half of them to Bills. I should like to know why the Government have adopted the line which they have adopted and have decided that all the time in this Session should be for Bills. In one sense it would have been logical to have accepted half and half, but they have not done that. They have said that Private Members' Motions are presumably of no interest to us; therefore, let Private Members use such time as is available, for Bills. Having granted that point, for the sake of argument, I do not know why the Government have diverged again from the Report of the Select Committee which proposed that the allocation of the time intended for Bills should be in the proportion of six to four —six Fridays for Second Readings and four Fridays for the subsequent stages of the Bills which had lone forward. The Lord President has not given any reason why, or even referred to the fact that he has not accepted the recommendation of the Committee, but he has taken the proportion of seven to three—seven days for Second Readings and three days for the further stages. I want to know why that has been done, and whether there is anything subtle in the words which he used just now in introducing these proposals—that the Government propose to set aside three Fridays towards the end of the Session for the further stages of the Bills "if required." I do not understand that. The old procedure was, of course, that Bills which had been given Second Readings, had been through the Committee stages and came forward to the further stages, had precedence. If what had been put on the Order Paper for further consideration and Third Readings still left some time on that particular Friday, it was available for Private Members, if they had been cunning enough to foresee the situation, to bring forward Bills which were lower down on the list. I do not know whether the words "if required" were meant to preclude that or not. We have a situation whereby it is proposed to take ten Fridays in the proportion of seven to three. I think it was a good idea for the Government to give a longer period and not to have the ballot this week when hon. Members are not perhaps all at full strength in the first day of the resumed Session. It was also a good idea that there should be a fortnight's interval between the ballot and the first Second Reading. I think that is a very sensible suggestion and I am glad to be able to agree with the Lord President on this point. The record in the past, over a period of years, has calculated that something like 10.8 Bills passed per Session. It is a mathematical figure which makes nonsense because no .8 of a Bill was ever passed. Taking the average over many years, that is the sort of amount of legislation which Private Members were able to achieve. In some years, of course, it was a very much higher figure. It is reasonable to assume, as you have pointed out, Mr. Speaker, that as a result of the ballot at any rate the first seven Bills will have complete opportunity for discussion. Those which are less successful—the second and third choices on any particular Friday—may or may not be fortunate enough to go to the Committee stage, quite apart from whether they are good Bills or had Bills; there may not be the time available for it to be done. That is all part of the general luck of things in dealing with matters of this kind. To that extent of course every Private Member must welcome the fact that this Session we are getting back some of the Private Members' time. That is very good. I have put down an Amendment to leave out paragraph (5), which raises a point which at first sight is not at all clear. I am not moving it at the moment but it may facilitate the general discussion if I may be allowed to refer to it. Paragraph 5 says:That is to say, only Government Bills or Bills which have emerged from the ballot may be introduced. At the risk again of being schoolmasterish, may I remind hon. Members who may have forgotten, as it is so long since we had Private Members' time, what are the rights—nothing less than that—of Private Members in this House according to Standing Orders. First of all, there is the right to introduce a Bill at any time. The Standing Order in the latest edition of Standing Orders which permits that is No. 35. which states:"for the remainder of the Session no Public Bills other than Government Bills or Bills introduced under paragraph (4) of this Order shall be introduced."
Any Member—not the Government—but any Member at any time may do what we see right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite doing very frequently; that is, by formally bowing, having given notice of a Bill for a particular purpose, the title of which appears on the Order Paper, and whose name is read out by you, Mr. Speaker, so that thereby the Bill is given the First Reading and goes forward for printing. That is not a Government right, but the right of a Member of Parliament, and is enshrined in Standing Order 35. As I understand paragraph (5) of this Motion, it deprives hon. Members of that right this Session. I do not know why, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman or the Deputy Leader of the House will tell us what conceivable objection there is against hon. Members introducing Bills in that way. It does not require any discussion, but enables Bills to be printed;and it has the further advantage, that if on any particular Friday towards the end of the Session, or, indeed. on an early Friday, the Business on the balloted Bills comes to an end, an hon. Member who may have had the foresight to put his own little Bill down that day, may have the opportunity of raising it and discussing it on Second Reading; or the Bill may get a Second Reading unopposed and be able to go forward to other stages. That is the first kind of right with which Private Members are concerned—that is to say, the inherent right to introduce any Bill. I may say that quite a lot of interesting Bills have been before the House under that procedure. Some of them have been passed, in fact. Some of them have been Bills which hon. Members have been moved to introduce because of something which had recently happened, or, possibly, because of some flaw in the law that could be quickly remedied in that way, and for which the Government themselves were not prepared to find time. The Labour Party is the last party in the world that ought to object to this. It has also been used as a means of introducing Bills and getting them printed, although there did not seem to be any chance of their being debated: but to get them printed in order that their subject matter could be ventilated. There was one famous Bill in 1926. Iacute; happened to come across it only this morning when looking through some old papers. It was called grandiloquently a Bill for the "Prevention of Unemployment." Then there was the famous Bank of England Nationalisation Bill under which everybody who was concerned was to be paid in 5 per cent. Bank stock. That was introduced by Mr. Maxton, and, indeed, there is one right hon. Gentleman still in the House whose name was on that Bill. What I have been talking about is just the presenting of Bills after notice for having them printed. There is another opening for hon. Members again under Standing Orders by which Notice of Motion for leave to bring in Bills is permissible for ordinary Members—not the Government, but ordinary Members—on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and that is called in the language of Erskine May and others expert in these matters, the Ten-minute Rule Procedure. There, it is not a question of merely having a Bill printed. What the hon. Member does then is to rise when called upon by you, Mr. Speaker, to ask for leave to introduce a Bill and briefly to give to the House what ideas of legislation on that particular point he has. That can be opposed at that stage, and if the House very obviously is against it, it is rejected by Division and the Bill can go no further and is not printed, and all that the House and the world know about it is from the words used by the hon. Gentleman or hon. Lady who asked for leave to introduce it. That is not to be allowed in this Session, I understand. I cannot understand why. Again, it is one more rebuff to the Select Committee on Procedure, because the Committee, in paragraph 48 said:"(1) A member may, after notice, present a Bill without previously obtaining leave from the House to bring in the same."
it has been renumbered as No. 12—"Your Committee recommend that facilities for Members to initiate business should be restored as soon as possible, and that, in any case, provisions of Standing Order No. 10,"—
That is to say, the Select Committee envisaged that Procedure in any case, even if we did not get the Fridays as the result of the ballot. I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman proposes to continue depriving hon. Members of that privilege—if, indeed, it is a privilege. It is one of the inherent rights of Members, and it is enshrined in Standing Orders as such. I hope that we are to hear from the Government why they do not propose to allow Bills to be presented formally or to allow Motions for leave to introduce any longer. It is not really an answer—though I suspect it may be attempted to put it up—to say that this is a waste of paper. It is not a waste of any time by any Government official, because the Bills are drafted and prepared by Private Members. In any case, at the stage when leave is asked to introduce a Bill the Bill does not necessarily exist. But for ordinary presentation the Bills are drafted and prepared by Private Members. All the Government or anybody else is called upon to do is, that the printers of the House should provide the paper on which the Bill is printed and circulated and the labour involved in printing. It is really too late in the day to try now to make out that there is such a shortage of paper that that cannot be done, because just a few less circulars from some of the public relations officers would certainly mean all the paper this House requires for the purpose. I am sure I have all Private Members with me in urging the Government to reconsider that point, to see if we cannot in this Session have everything which appertains to Private Members' Bills back again. The procedure about introducing Bills as a result of the ballot is the main subject of this Motion. With that, of course, we are all in agreement. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman does not think that we ought to be giving to him great paeans of praise or hearty votes of thanks for restoring something which is ours of right. This is not something between the Government and the Opposition, but something for hon. Members in all parts of the House—the restoring of something which it is high time was restored to us."which enables Members to bring in Bills under 'the Ten-minute Rule,' should be made available again."
I think the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would almost thank me if we had done nothing.
I do not understand what the right hon. Gentleman means.
I mean that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is taking such pains to show that he is going to be most extremely unappreciative of any move forward on the part of the Government that one is tempted to think that if we had done nothing at all, he might have said a small "thank you" for it.
I still cannot see the point of the right hon. Gentleman's intervention, unless it is a jocular one. Surely, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that what the Government are doing is to restore to Private Members something which the emergencies of the war took away. Therefore, it is like any other control. When any other control is lifted and the ordinary freedom and the liberty of the subject is restored, it is nothing to be particularly grateful about, because it is merely the getting back of something which belonged to one in the beginning. [An HON. MEMBER: "We can still say 'Thank you."] Well, if it pleases the hon. Gentleman that we should say "thank you," perhaps, but as Private Members, not as the Opposition. If it pleases the hon. Member, we will. But I do not think it is necessary to go that far. After all, if somebody steals an hon. Member's watch and the thief brings it back, will the hon. Member say "Thank you very much" to the thief? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] Well, we shall see.
Whether there are thanks involved or not, and while it is a very good thing that these rights of Private Members should be restored, I should like the right hon. Gentleman seriously to consider whether he cannot give back to us the whole of our rights as regards Private Members' Bills and as regards presentation and the right under the Ten-minute Rule. I can think of no conceivable reason why this cannot be done. It is in accordance with the report of the Select Committee on Procedure, unanimously adopted, which the Government were very keen to set up since this Parliament met. They went into these matters very carefully and their report, I submit to the right hon. Gentleman, is at least worthy of his consideration. For the rest, we can only hope that, with the Amendment which I hope may be made to this Motion, and as a result of the passage of this Motion, Bills will be brought forward which will not only give to the hon. Members who have to introduce them a certain amount of Parliamentary experience which many have not yet had the opportunity of enjoying, but which will also be to the general advantage of the nation. That is why hon. Members bring Bills forward—to remedy some defect or make some proposals which they think will he to the common advantage. I hope that in this Session that may be the case, and I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me. His gesture to Private Members is just marred by his not having gone so far as to restore to us everything which was taken away in this particular field, and I hope very much that even now he will consider doing that.4.32 p.m.
I always face a considerable difficulty in understanding what is really the attitude of the Opposition to Private Members' time: perhaps it would be more correct to say not Private Members' time because nearly all the time in the House is Private Members' time, but the Private Members' right to initiate legislation. That is what we are really concerned with. I am always a little perplexed about what the Opposition really think about that because there is always so complete a divergence between what they say they want and what they do when they have the opportunity to do what they want or what they say they want.
This matter of initiating legislation is not only a matter of Bills. We can initiate legislation by amending other people's Bills. There was an occasion very recently on which, by the general consent of the House of Commons and with the consent of the Government, it was felt that a particular amendment of the law was more a matter to be determined by the opinions of Private Members than by dictation by the Government. They gave us that opportunity, and we took it. We had one of the best Debates that I have ever heard during the 15 years I have been a Member of this House. Everybody was present, and a great many people took part. The level of Debate was agreed by almost everybody to have been very high, and a decision was taken by the House uninfluenced in any way by any lead or advice from the Government, let alone any dictation from them. We reached a decision. What was the first thing that the Leader of the Opposition did about that? When this matter was thrown out in the House of Lords and it came back accordingly to the House of Commons, the Leader of the Opposition reproached the Government most bitterly, although very eloquently, because whatever he does he does eloquently, but he did it very bitterly indeed. What was his complaint, supported by almost everybody on the benches behind him? His complaint was precisely that the Government had left this particular bit of legislation to the initiation of Private Members and their unfettered vote. That, of course—I do not know how many hon. Member's will recognise it—was the occasion on which we amended in this House the Criminal Justice Bill in order to do away, at any rate for the most part, with the death penalty.A bad example.
The hon. Gentleman is not doing himself justice. He does not believe what he has just said, and he would be a much more valuable Member of this House if he did believe it. In saying that is a bad example, all he means is that he does not agree with it.
The advice was advice or dictation from the Government Front Bench plus the activities of Members on the back benches, which produced an absolutely appalling result.
The hon. Gentleman does not define what he considers the "appalling result." Was it an appalling result to abolish the death penalty? He does not believe that because he supported us—
Is this very relevant to the Motion?
What the hon. Gentleman considers the appalling result was that, in the end, the House of Commons did not get their way, although they did reach a decision in the way everyone appears to think is the proper way to do these things. Why did not the House of Commons get their way? They did not get their way because of the intervention of the Opposition, with the support of the ranks of the Conservative Party in another place.
The hon. Gentleman's argument is quite misleading. In the case of Private Members' Bills the Government have no responsibility whatever. They stand on one side and make up their minds whether the Bill is a good one or a bad one; a right one or a wrong one, and give it their support or not accordingly. In the instance which the hon. Gentleman has quoted, the Government gave a lead and printed a Bill dealing with capital punishment. It had a Clause in which capital punishment was retained, and then they ran away from that decision. That is a totally different argument.
The hon. and gallant Member is wrong on both points of his argument.
Prove me wrong.
I hope to do so. It is not true that when Private Members' Bills are debated the Government stand back and say nothing.
I said that they had no responsibility.
That is not the point. The point is that they do take part and give the lead that they feel they should, but they have no responsibility for the initiation of the matter. The other part of the hon. Member's argument was that on the occasion to which I am referring the Government did not have responsibility. He is wrong. They had the responsibility for introducing the Bill, and if they had done nothing more than that, the responsibility for not abolishing the death penalty at that time would have been theirs and ours in so far as we supported them in it. They did not do that. They agreed that they would not put it in themselves and, in the end, that they would not leave it out themselves, but would leave the question of whether it was put in or not to the private judgment of Private Members. It was precisely that which called forth the hitter complaint of the Leader of the Opposition when the decision went otherwise than the way he expected it to go. We cannot defend the right of the Private Member to initiate legislation if that is how we treat him when he has an opportunity. So far, I have been speaking of the Conservative Opposition. The Liberals do not appear to be interested in the subject at all. There is not one Member of the Liberal Party present. There is, I think, one—or is it two—independent Members present.
That is a very high percentage of the total.
In the matter of percentage of totals, the small minorities always have an advantage over large majorities. If there is only one, we get either 100 per cent. present or 100 per cent. absent.
It seems to me that there is something not quite realistic about the approach of the Conservative Party to this question of the rights of the Private Member. When they were in office not many Bills were actually defeated on a Division. When Private Members' Bills were introduced, the great majority of them were talked out by official "stooges" of the then Patronage Secretary, who earned good marks in the right quarters week after week by ensuring that talk went on until after the time when a Division could be taken.On a point of Order. Is the phrase "official 'stooge'" a permitted term to use of an hon. Member?
Yes, I think the word is getting quite common now.
Further to that point of Order. Do I understand your Ruling to be that, in future it will be possible to describe an hon. Member on the other side of the House with whom one disagrees as an "official 'stooge'"? Is that the effect of your Ruling.
Yes, I think so.
I would suggest to the noble Lord, with great respect, that if he applies the term only to people he does not like it becomes a term of abuse; but when I use it I use it as a term of art, with a scientific meaning.
Is it not clearly in Order for those who are anxious to accept American dollars to accept American language as well?
I hope that by that the hon. Member does not intend any reflection on my own political views.
I should now like to say a few words about the Motion before the House. I begin by saying that, although I am not satisfied that it goes as far as the Government ought to go and might have gone, I find no difficulty whatever in saying "Thank you" to them for having gone so far. That is not very high praise, but if they have removed at any rate some of the inhibitions which prevent us from exercising our rights it is a matter for which we can, without being too humble, be grateful, in the hope that gratitude may be interpreted, as it so often is, as a lively sense of favours to come. We have got so much, and if we appreciate what we have got, then some day or other we may get a little more. I do really feel somewhat aggrieved, however, that the right under the Ten-minute Rule has not been restored. I do not see what objection there is to it. I concede to the Government that in the first two Sessions of this Parliament there was very good reason for the Government taking all the time, including that time. I know that not all hon. Members feel that, but I myself do. The amount of work the Government had to get through, which I supported them in getting through, and which I believed they had an obligation to get through, was so great that they were justified in taking away the whole of the time, even that limited time which used to be devoted very shortly to Bills on two days a week.The hon. Member says he feels that that was quite justified. Could he say whether that was because of the backlog, because it was the post-war period and there was a lot of work to be done, or because he thinks that a Government at any time is entitled to drive through legislation and deprive hon. Members of time which belongs to them?
No, it is certainly not the second, because if it were I should not be welcoming the present proposal, and 1 should not be asking for more. The Government came to power after the General Election in 1945 pledged to do a great many things, and I do not regard it as anything to be complained of in a Government that, having given pledges to the electorate to do things if they are elected, they proceed to do them when elected. It may be unusual for Governments, in this century at any rate, to do that, but this Government certainly was an honourable exception. At the beginning they set themselves to carry through the legislative programme to which they were pledged. I do not propose to argue now whether it was a wise or an unwise programme. That does not matter; it was their pledge and they set themselves to carry it out in their programme. They had to do so. The people had given them power to carry it out, and it was necessary for the Government to take all the time, because unless they had taken all the time they could not have carried through their programme.
The Government themselves concede that their legislative pressure is not now what it was. The rate—I almost said spate—of legislation this Session has been considerably lighter, and it is because the Government themselves feel that the exigences of their obligations do not require them to take all the time of the House that they are moving this Motion. I cannot see any very good reason why they should not have gone the small step further and restored those two days for the Ten-minute Rule, which were very valuable days indeed. They served a great public interest. A man has a particular notion of his own; it may be a notion that seems cranky to a lot of people—a great deal of good legislation seemed very cranky in its beginnings; but it does not matter whether to a great many people it seems good or bad, wise or foolish, prudent or imprudent; the point is that if a man who has been elected by a constituency in this country to be a Member of the House of Commons feels that there is something which could be legislated about with advantage, then it is in the public interest that he should have the opportunity of saying in a short speech why he thinks so, and if necessary of testing by a Division of the House whether there is, roughly speaking, a majority in sympathy with his idea, or whether the majority, roughly speaking, is against his idea. The operation of the Ten-minute Rule is a very good way of ventilating questions which are agitating the public mind, and it can be done without a very great loss of time. It is not every Member who wants to do it; and it is certainly not every Member who wants to do it on every day when it is possible. In my time the use made of this right was limited, and I think it would always be limited. If there were a danger of its being abused—I do not mean abused in any wrongful sense, but in the sense that it was becoming so frequent a practice as to be a real burden upon the time of the house—then consultations for arrangements to limit it might be made. But if the practice were followed on the same lines as before it would be no burden at all upon the time of the House, and I really cannot see why the Government have not felt it possible to go as far as that. On the other point made by the right hon. and gallant Member, the right to have Bills printed and presented, I cannot say that I feel quite so sympathetic. It does not seem to me that that ever did serve very much purpose. There was no argument about such a Bill; there was no explanation of the Bill; there was no explanation of its necessity; there was simply the exercise of a personal privilege, as it were, that because a man was a Member of the House of Commons he could have a Bill printed, even though the chances that many people would read it were slender indeed. I do not think that the House will have suffered very much loss if that particular right is not restored. That is not to say I am against its being restored. I quite understand the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's argument. This is not a thing that is in the gift of Governments. This is a matter which pertains to Private Members; it is one of their traditional rights, and unless there is good reason to take away a traditional right I feel that that traditional right ought to remain. On that ground I would support it. However, I should not regard it as an important matter; but I do regard the right under the Ten-minute Rule as an important matter. I think that something substantial is lost when that is lost, but that nothing substantial is lost when the other is lost. I shall certainly listen with great interest to my right hon. Friend to see why Private Members' rights under the Ten-minute Rule cannot he restored.4.50 p.m.
I certainly am willing to say a small "Thank you" to the Leader of the House, although my "Thank you" might be like that of the prophet Jonah, when he found himself regurgitated by the whale, for I never expected any concession from him. I support what has been said on this side of the House, and also what has been said by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). I wanted to raise one point before you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, took the Chair. Mr. Speaker was endeavouring to give us some guidance not about paragraph 5, but on what is to happen under paragraph 4 on Friday, 28th January. I am still not quite clear whether there is to be a limit, and, if so, by whom that limit is to be laid down as to the number of Bills which will be presented on that day. Mr. Speaker himself was trying to recall what happened in the old days. My recollection is that those Members, who were successful in the ballot, appeared at the Table and presented their Bills. Those like myself, who were about No. 301 in the ballot, ploughed along behind with one or two or even three Bills, and presented them in the ordinary manner, thus exercising what was the fundamental right of every Member according to the Standing Orders.
Mr. Speaker seemed to think that a limitation was contained in paragraph 5. I do not find it there at all. If there is any limitation I gather it is to be made by Mr. Speaker himself. With great respect, I hope that is not so and I hope the idea will prevail that there will not be a limit on the number of Bills which can be presented on a Friday. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne did not see much point in the right of presenting a Bill which might not bear fruit, nor appear on the Statute Book. With great respect, there is some point in it. I remember that 10 years ago—I am not trying to advertise a particular Bill—I introduced a Bookmakers' Bill, and that towards the end of the Session there was a Friday which was not full. It was a Third Reading day, and I put down my Bill for Second Reading. I managed to get in and make a Second Reading speech. The Bill went no further, but that speech is on record in HANSARD and the Bill is in print today. His Majesty's Government might take it over tomorrow and they might not. I know what is at the back of the mind of the Lord President of the Council, and the explanation of why he denies us these things is that he thinks the only justification for Private Members' time is if it results in actual additions to the Statute Book. As I said before, that is a gross, materialistic fallacy. I remember when there were four Bills down for a Friday, and not one of them got through; but that was not a waste of time. New ideas were expressed, sometimes good and sometimes bad. If they were bad they were rejected, perhaps for ever. But it was a great education to hon. Members and a great encouragement to bodies and movements outside, who felt that their particular issues had had a hearing. To use words made famous by the right hon. Gentleman, a good time was had by all, and great instruction, too. The same thing applies under the Ten-minute Rule. Under that Rule there may be a small issue aired. I remember many examples. If a Bill does not go through no harm has been done, and it is good exercise for hon. Members to express the gist of their Bills in 10 minutes. It is an example for some of His Majesty's Ministers, when dealing with larger Measures. Those are the two main points I should like to make in reinforcement of what was said as to exactly what should happen on Fridays. First, if there is any limitation on the number of Bills to be presented it would be a departure from the Standing Orders. Second, I earnestly ask the right hon. Gentleman to give some attention to the Amendment which is on the Paper in the name of my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank). Third, might I wish good luck to all those who are lucky in the ballot. I am sure hon. Members opposite, who have not seen this very fine piece of Parliamentary machinery in action, will be as proud of it as are we who have not seen it for so many years.4.56 p.m.
Frankly—and I am glad the Lord President of the Council is in his place—I do not understand this Government. I imagine that is a feeling which is shared by the majority of the people outside, but I must record the fact here. The Government told us with either pride or shame, according to their stupidity or intelligence, that once they have nationalised the steel industry they will have carried out every promise made to the people in 1945. If that is so—and it is so—they have still got left over a year for possible destructive or disruptive legislation. Surely, therefore, this is the one time when the Government ought to welcome Private Members and give them every possible consideration, if only to fill up the time. Not only should they give them consideration, but they should restore to them their rights, as Members, which they have improperly denied for the past three years.
What are the Government proposing to do in this Motion? They are refusing traditional rights which hitherto have been enjoyed by hon. Members for several generations. The Lord President of the Council seemed to think that he had gone a long way when he gave us seven Fridays for Second Readings and three for the Committee and the remaining stages, but any of us who have had experience of this method know that at the outside it means that hot more than seven Private Members' Bills will reach the Statute Book. Possibly, by some strange mischance, a Second Bill on Friday may get through, for Mr. Speaker will very rarely accept the Closure on a discussion if only a couple of hours' Debate have taken place. That the first right which is being taken away. I admit that the Government are giving back Private Members' time piecemeal, but that is no justification for a refusal to give us back our full time, especially as they have no mandate for any more governmental legislation. The second thing they are taking away is the time for Motions on Wednesdays. Some people might ask what is the use of talk and discussions. But these Motions on Wednesdays meant three hours' discussion. Therefore, while perhaps it was not necessary to introduce a Motion dealing with legislation at least the rule did exploit, develop and expose questions which, at the time, were causing great concern to the people of the country. It might have been an international question, a domestic issue, or the removal of an anomaly which had arisen in our existing laws. The Government have removed that right from us. They have also removed the Ten-minute Rule. The case for this was admirably made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). It was a brief speech and was an illustration of the technique of making a short speech, which some of us have not yet developed. He explained, in that speech, the whole details. Lastly, they have denied to us the right of presenting a Bill. That to my mind is one of the worst things the Government are doing under this Motion, because they have consented to give us seven Fridays for Private Members' Bills. On these seven Fridays the Government cannot introduce Government Bills. What harm could there be in allowing the possibility of a Bill being presented and getting its First Reading some day, after Questions, and then being dropped into a place left vacant on a Friday? There would thus be an opportunity of it being considered with the possibility of it getting its Second Reading. There can be no argument against that. No time would be given up by the Government or wasted. I suggest that the Government might reconsider that point, even if they will not give way on the others. What is the reason for the Government refusing these rights? They must have some reason. Is it fear of discussion on fundamental issues which they want to evade or avoid? If so, that is surely not a legitimate excuse for a responsible Government. In any case it does not compensate the Government for the advantages which they are bound to derive from the extensive use of Private Members' time. The Government would gain great advantage. They might see legislation proposed which would be too controversial for them to handle. It might be legislation involving a religious issue which they themselves would not touch with a forty-foot pole. When it is done by Private Members, the Government are able to watch the reaction in the House and in the country, and may be able to alter their own decision on the matter overnight, to suit what they believe to be the general wish of the country. At the same time, they give Private Members the opportunity of developing a sense of the atmosphere of the House of Commons, and they give some of the new boys a chance of gaining the sense of responsibility and judgment which will make them eager in their participation in the work of this Chamber. I have a lot more that I might say, but perhaps this Debate has gone on too long. The Government are losing a great opportunity of meeting the general wishes of their own supporters and the Opposition. This is one of the few occasions upon which they might feel inclined to meet the wish of the Opposition. Not that alone; they would also create increased interest outside this House in Parliamentary affairs. Let us remember that every Bill introduced by a Private Member, and every discussion upon a Private Members' Motion, represents the views of some persons outside, possibly associated with an organisation or association representing a vast number of people, upon a particular public issue. The Government would stimulate interest outside if they would reconsider their attitude. I hope the Home Secretary will give some attention to the proposals I have made.5.4 p.m.
I wish to add my voice to those which have been appealing to the Government to extend the restoration of the rights of Members. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Opposition Front Bench was quite accurate in describing them as the rights of Members. I think we should have the Ten-minute Rule and the opportunity of introducing Motions restored. The idea that it is possible for any group of men, however eminent and learned, to make a corner in constructive ability and produce what they consider desirable for the House to discuss is a delusion.
Under the Standing Orders in force before the war the Private Member was able to take a larger and more dignified part in the work of this House than he can at present. That was of great advantage to the nation. The hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir A. Herbert) did a great public service in that way in introducing legislation and many other hon. Members have done good work along those lines. I believe there always will be a number of matters which can be introduced better by a Private Member than by the Government, and which are more likely to be introduced by a Private Member. There are many Private Members who, in their own sphere, know a good deal more on their particular subject than any member of a Government can possibly do. If we still had the privilege of having Sir John Boyd Orr among us in this House, who shall say that we should not be grateful for a Private Bill that he might introduce on one of the subjects of which he is a master? I could give many other instances. I can see no reason why the Government should not extend the concessions which they are now permitting by the restoration of Private Members' rights under the Ten-minute Rule and the Rule with regard to Motions. Such a restoration would be of great advantage to the House and to the country. It would give Members on all sides of the House, who sometimes feel like robots, an opportunity of feeling like responsible Members of Parliament.5.7 p.m.
I would like to say at the beginning that I do not mind saying "Thank you" for what is in this Motion. It is true that the Motion gives us back only one third of our rights, but it is rare to get even that proportion restored nowadays. I therefore think that it is quite proper that we should say "Thank you," so far as the Motion goes but I add my voice to those who have said that they are not happy about it. I do not think that anybody who served on the Select Committee on the Procedure of the House, which was set up after the 1945 General Election, can feel at all happy about it.
I see some of my colleagues who sat with me on that Committee. I cannot presume to speak for them, but they may agree, to some extent at any rate, with me, when I speak of the reaction which I feel about these proposals. On that Committee we received very strong representations from the Government. Those representations were expressed cogently and forcibly by the Lord President of the Council, who held the view that the character of the period through which we were passing, and should continue to pass, was such that the Government required, in the interests of the despatch of public business, various modifications in the Standing Orders of the House, and at any rate for a period of time ahead, required pretty well all the time of the House of Commons. Hon. Members who sat on that Committee will agree—I think the Lord President would agree also—that our approach was in no sense partisan. The Committee was not divided into supporters and opponents of the Government. It consisted of Members of Parliament functioning primarily as Members, and concerned to achieve the best Standing Orders they could for the conduct of the business of the House. It is fair to say that some of us on that Committee attached greater importance to the needs of the Government in getting legislation through, and that others attached greater importance to maintaining the rights of Private Members. I may say, without surprising anybody, that I was in the second category rather than in the first. I wanted to preserve and to reassert the rights of the Private Member. It is a mistake to assume that all Government legislation, whichever side may be in power, is right. It is a mistake to measure the value of a Parliament by the number of Bills put through. It is wrong to imagine that quantity is any substitute for quality in the matter of legislation. On the other hand, it is also true that there are many issues which in the public interest ought to be grappled with which Governments, quite legitimately from their point of view, may desire to avoid handling. Some of the most radical and revolutionary Measures passed through the House of Commons have been passed as a result of the insistent pressure of Private Members using Private Members' opportunities on issues which, for one reason or another the Government were not disposed to tackle. Examples are the Plimsoll Line and the slave trade, and in our own day there was the Bill of my hon. Friend the Junior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Herbert) dealing with divorce and Miss Ellen Wilkinson's Hire Purchase Bill. Those Measures were put forward by Private Members on subjects which the Government quite legitimately did not wish, or were not able, to tackle. The Committee reached a compromise between the Members who put the interests of Government first and those who put the rights of Private Members first, and that compromise was embodied in the Report to the House. The Report was accepted by the House. But what has happened is that the Government have got out of the Report all the points which are favourable from their point of view, but they withhold from the other school of thought what was recommended in regard to the rights of private Members. We made the strongest possible recommendation that the complete and full rights of Private Members should be restored at the earliest possible date. We are now at the beginning of 1949, and the war has been over four years, and if we cannot reassert four years after the end of the war the very modest measure of rights which Private Members had, we are in a very parlous condition indeed. I want the same rights as we had before in the matter of Bills. I want the Ten-minute Rule restored. I also want Motions restored, because Motions were generally as valuable as, and sometimes more valuable than, a Bill. In a Motion one was not tied down to the precise terms of a draft Bill. One could introduce a Motion in general terms in order to concentrate public opinion on an important matter and have a first-class Debate in the House and a Division at the end. It was not binding on the Government but it was a valuable indication of public and parliamentary opinion. The Government's Motion does not give back those rights, and I join other hon. Members in asking the Government to amend the Motion in order to do so. It is not very much to ask. As the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) said, there was a time when all Parliamentary time was Private Members' time, except that which they gave to the Government. That situation is now completely inverted; all time is now Government time except that which the Government give. The Government should at least restore the freedom to hon. Members which existed before the war.5.13 p.m.
My right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) and hon. Gentlemen who followed him have made it crystal clear that the air of unctuous rectitude and benevolence with which the Leader of the House commended the Motion has no justification in the circumstances. The Leader of the House reminded me of the announcements made from time to time by the Minister of Food, who appears to wave Plenty's horn when, in fact, he is giving another thimbleful of sugar which is to be compensated for by a cut in the bacon ration. The House has been reminded that a decade has passed since Private Members' rights were exercised. During the war those rights were voluntarily surrendered in order to concentrate on the one objective, but there have since been three full Sessions of peace-time in which not a single opportunity has been given to private Members.
A year ago, when the Government produced a Motion to take the whole of private Members' time, we resisted it. The Home Secretary intervened at the end of the Debate, and said that no one had advocated the full restoration of private Members' privileges as they existed before the war. That was true that afternoon. No one had advocated their full restoration. Of course, no one had advocated their full removal. However, the House should take warning that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman a year ago very strongly hinted, if it did nothing more, of the intention of His Majesty's Government to truncate the privileges of Private Members to some extent, not temporarily but permanently. Hon. Members in all parts of the House should realise that what we do today may be regarded as a precedent for our proceedings in future. I hope that will be borne in mind when we come to a Division. It is true that there are Standing Orders, but we know what the Government want to do with them. We know what the Government have done with the Committee's Report on the matter. I support what was said by the junior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Herbert) about the value of the Ten-minute Rule. That Rule is doubly valuable. Not only does it allow the airing of topics of public interest and anxiety, but it comes on immediately after Question Time, which is a very good time of day from the point of view of getting Press reports. A short Debate such as that frequently gets a good notice in the newspapers and that is something which Private Members deserve and wish to get. I do not see what objection there is to restoring the very minor privilege of the presentation of Bills. Such Bills came up at the end of Public Business and hon. Members attended in the hope that a non-controversial Bill might get a Second Reading on the nod, as the saying is, at the end of the day's Business. A number of non-controversial Bills went on the Statute Book by that method. It is true of any Government that there are usually a number of hon. Members in the Chamber for the purpose of saying "Objection" when such a Bill is put forward, but it does not affect the fact that that privilege quite often gets a Bill a Second Reading, and it certainly gets it some publicity. I remember one of my own, which made no progress. It is topical at the moment. It was a Bill which sought to offer greater protection for bank officers against armed bandits. It would have been a good thing if my Bill had reached the Statute Book. It got a considerable amount of attention in the Press at the time. The Government should reconsider that privilege, which takes little or no time. Private Members' Motions also offer a great opportunity for airing certain topics. We had some excellent Debates in the past—they used to be on Wednesdays—on such matters as the growth of taxation. We had Debates covering the whole financial field, short Debates of great value although they had no legislative effect. I hope that the Home Secretary will not resist this request on the grounds that it simply means two and a half hours' talk with no legislative consequence. When all is said and done, we are rather losing sight of the fact that our function is to be a debating Assembly, that we are a sounding board. We are in the greatest danger of becoming a sausage machine, turning out Bill after Bill, guillotined and little discussed. It would be a healthy thing for us all if we could get back all these privileges, the Ten-minute Rule, the presentation of Private Bills and Private Members' Motions, because then we should really be performing our function as a Parliament. I believe we have now come to the time—the war has been over for nearly four years, and the bulk of the Government's Election programme is through and on the Statute Book—to restore to Private Members of the House of Commons the proper function for which we are here.5.20 p.m.
I find myself largely in agreement with the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). Apart from his reference to a recent Bill, I thought he was on sure ground. I would like to make the point that not a single Member elected to this Parliament in 1945 has yet spoken and I hope this lapse will be remedied before we conclude this Debate. The hon. Member for North Islington (Dr. Guest), the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne, the hon. and gallant Member for Holderness (Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite) and other hon. Members who have spoken have been here for 10, 15 and 20 years, in other words they remember the position as it was. Is it not just a little sinister—the right hon. Gentleman seems to dislike the word "sinister"——
Heavy going.
Then I want to take him up, because he is my target. The right hon. Gentleman has used the expression "tidy" again and again—today in reference to Palestine and before Christmas, in reference to foreign affairs. He said, "I like to have things 'tidily organised. I want to see a tidy Debate, not one which is all over the place." I appreciate that line of argument, but the world is not a tidy place. I put this point to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne, "Was it because you had a mandate that you were prepared to surrender private rights, or because this was a postwar period?" It was an important question. Supposing the Communist Party come in with mandate and say, "To hell with private rights." What is good enough for one party is good enough for another. Supposing the Conservative Party come in and say, "We are going to denationalise everything. We have a majority of 250." What we are doing today is not merely trying to recover Private Members' rights or unofficial Members' right—I am not sure there is such a thing as a private right—but something more important.
Members' rights.
As the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne and others have said, there are a number of points of view in the rich and varied society of Britain which do not correspond easily with party platforms. It is interesting that most of the older and wiser people, like Gilbert Murray and Sir Alfred Zimmern, are more and more proving right over foreign affairs. One hon. Member mentioned Sir John Boyd Orr; well, men on both sides could be mentioned. These points of view do not necessarily get represented if there are two solid party machines. I recognise there have to be parties and I will not stir up that hornet's nest now. I am simply saying that these differing points of view can be represented partly by Private Members' Bills and partly by the Wednesday afternoon Motions. I was never lucky enough to win a ballot, but I introduced many Motions on Wednesday afternoons. We had some excellent Debates and I think they are of equal value to the Bills.
I believe that the Lord President is in agreement on this point about extending the Motion to the Ten-minute Rule. I do not believe he will resist a suggestion which has come from every part of the House, because he is a reasonable man. If he accepts that, he will not be giving back anything but it will be an important day in the history of this Parliament. Say what he will, there is a feeling about—perhaps the word "sinister" is too strong—that it is possible for any party with a majority to drive through legislation excluding the framework of private rights. Why should we abrogate those rights? Maybe this is what we have come to: owing to the necessity for legislation, we cannot afford to allow these rights to exist, except on seven Fridays. If we have come to that, it is serious, because this Parliament stands now, above all other Parliaments in the civilised world, for the right of the unofficial Member. I do not treat this Motion as an idle one. I wish some hon. Members who were elected in 1945 would give us their views. We may be old fogies, out of date. The Lord President made a speech this weekend which proves that he is very much aware of freedom in Europe, and I thank heaven that one Member of the Government has spoken about it. If he feels as strongly as he does about the Cardinal in Hungary and about the breakdown of Parliaments throughout central and Eastern Europe we ought to be scrupulously careful—perhaps we ought to go a little beyond mere carefulness in our own Parliament—to keep the rights which belong to us and which incidentally nearly always produce Debates touching on the freedom of the people, freedom of religion, freedom of worship. The case of the death penalty quoted by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne was unique. It is only on these issues that we get the cross divisions in the House of Commons. Ordinary party Measures go through. Issues which affect the life of the people are often issues of human freedom—Sunday cinemas, betting, divorce—and they are always raised by individuals because parties, nine times out of ten, dare not raise them; they affect the Catholic vote or some other powerful group. I ask the Lord President to go one step further and restore the whole thing. If he does, it will be an important day in the history of this Government which I have supported in 90 per cent. of its legislation. I say, therefore, from no party feeling one way or the other, that such a step would redound to the credit of this Government, and I hope they will take it.5.30 p.m.
I am very glad that the hon. Gentleman the senior Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) stressed twice in his speech how desirable it was that we should have speeches from those hon. Members on either side of the House who were first elected in 1945. As it is ten years since the House has had any opportunity whatever of Private Members' time, even in the most limited degree, there must be something like—I have not investigated the actual figures, but can make a rough guess—400 hon. Gentlemen and Ladies who have had no experience whatever of Private Members' time, on whatever side of the House they sit. It is a little sinister, therefore, that no protest has been made about the importance of this function of Parliament. It is, indeed, a function of Parliament and must not be approached from the viewpoint either of Government or of Opposition. Ten years is a very long time indeed and if we continue in this way there will be a rapidly dwindling number of Members who have had the opportunity of any experience of Private Members' time.
When I first came to this House in 1931 the then National Government had a very full programme. There was not even the prospect of a full Session because of the forthcoming Ottawa Conference. It was a very short Session, beginning in the November and ending in the beginning of July. The Government had perforce to take away Private Members' time. A very great deal of legislation was undertaken. Private Members' time was not taken away, however, without a very strong protest indeed being made. If I remember aright, my noble Friend the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) took part in that Debate. That Parliament had an overwhelming Conservative majority. I think I am right in saying there had been no Conservative majority like it since the Restoration Parliament of Charles II. Although in that House of Commons in 1931 there was virtually no Opposition, some small opposition was made. The bulk of the protests, therefore, came from the Government side. The Government of the day, in fact, was very strongly handled by its own supporters. That course of action was intended for one Session only. We have now had ten Sessions without any opportunity whatsoever being given of Private Members' time. Today this partial restoration has been offered to us but there has been no note of protest, or even of praise, from the Government side by the new Members who came into Parliament in 1945. The hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) said that he, for one, found no difficulty in thanking the Government for what they had been good enough to do today. I suppose, as my right hon and gallant Friend the Member for Gains-borough (Captain Crookshank) said, that if the Leader of the House wanted thanks he would get them. To a limited degree, no doubt he would get them. I am afraid, however, that anything which I have to say about this Motion is a matter of damning it with very faint praise indeed. I have referred to the first Session of the 1931 Parliament. The present Session, for all practical purposes, is the last Session of the 1945 Parliament. It will be one of the longest Sessions of the House of Commons for very many years. There is only one major piece of legislation—the Steel Bill—and the Government have had the indecency to send that upstairs. Therefore, why do they not agree to let us have the full Private Members' time—the fragment, as it has been called today—which was allowed before the war? Why do they not implement the whole of the recommendations of the Select Committee on Procedure and give us this time, particularly the Fridays which were to have been devoted to Private Members' Motions? It was an excellent suggestion that all Private Members' time—Members' time, I think, is the right expression—should be taken on Fridays instead of having midweek interruptions. It is true, of course, that there are Members, like myself, who have a long distance to travel to spend their weekends in Scotland. Some of them might not have been interested in the suggestion of Private Members' time on Fridays but could have gone home, without injuring in any way the interests of their constituents, well knowing that Fridays had been allocated to Private Members. The Government, however, have decided that they cannot find the time. I am grieved to know why they cannot do so. I can only hope that they will be very willing to give time to the discussion of matters of urgent public importance which are sure to arise with ever-increasing frequency as this last Session of the present Parliament proceeds. Possibly that is one of the reasons why the Government is keeping something in hand. I hope so, but am constrained to say that I am not very hopeful that that is the case. I realise that under this Motion we have to accept it or leave the matter so far as the full restoration of time recommended by the Select Committee on Procedure is concerned. I hope very much, however, that the spirit of the Amendment will be agreed to. I trust that the Amendment will be moved and I sincerely hope that the Home Secretary will accept it. If he resists it, and if my right hon. and hon. Friends see fit to go into the Division Lobby, I shall certainly give them my support.
5.37 p.m.
It is, perhaps, appropriate that I should say a word or two on this matter. As hon. Members know, I have had a longer experience of the House than any other Member of it and, I think, have taken part in many more Debates. Very rightly, a short time ago, I was checked by the Chair for appearing to reflect upon the House as a whole. I do not want to fall into that error today. I am bound to say, however, that it is with a feeling of something approaching very deep melancholy that I have watched the attitude of the House towards this Debate. We have had most admirable speeches from both sides of the House, but the impression left in my mind—I hope this will not get me into trouble with the Chair—is that the House as a whole, both those Members in it and those who are not in it, have really ceased to take any real practical interest in this matter of Private Members' time.
I am judging now from the attendance in the House, and from the general attitude during the Debate. I cannot imagine such things happening even 10 or 15 years ago. Then, the House would have been full. Various Members, especially those who had just joined the House, would have been getting up to protest. Today there is the same kind of attitude as on all these occasions when the Government proposes motions of this kind. It does not matter whether it is a Tory or a Socialist Government. They find the same argument against their opponents. It is all a natural process. To use a phrase which has been given by an hon. Member below the Gangway, and which has been held to be in Order by Mr. Deputy-Speaker, the House is gradually being turned into a body of official "stooges" and thinks it does not really matter. This is a very serious thing from the point of view of the whole position of Parliament. I am not going to attack this Government in particular. I attack the whole system. I have done so when I have been supporting a Government. I have constantly attacked the whole attitude of Governments—and, if I may say so, of Chief Whips on both sides of the House—towards this question of Private Members' time. The first thing I want to say, if I might have the attention of the Home Secretary, is this. The assumption, as it seemed to me, inherent in the speech—although I did not hear all of it—of the Leader of the House, was that in this case the Government had made a concession. I agree with the three Independent Members below the Gangway that this is not a question of concession. I would say that the right of Private Members to have a due amount of time to introduce Bills or to propose Motions was an inalienable, hereditary, right of Private Members.indicated dissent.
I see an hon. Member shake his head, but I say that in the past it was so and it was Private Members or the House as a whole who made concessions when they allowed successive Governments to take up an amount of time they would never have dreamed of taking 30 or 40 years ago.
I understood the noble Lord to say that it was an inalienable right, but surely, he would not disagree with the view that this House, on three successive occasions, has voluntarily surrendered Private Members' time to the Government in the belief that it was in the interests of the House to do so.
I accept the hon. Member's rebuke; it was a most unfortunate use of phrase. What I wanted to convey was that in regard to time the rights rest with hon. Members and not with the Government. Gradually, in recent years the assumption has grown up that the Government are the people who have the rights, while in fact they are not. In the next Parliament there may be a Government with a small majority one way or another and there might be a revolt on the idea that it rests with the Government to say what should be the situation in regard to the allocation of the House's time.
I must call attention to the fact that this is not a kind of right or some sort of constitutional theory which has no actual value at present. Indeed some of the most valuable legislation passed in this House has been as a result of Private Members' Bills and Motions, such as the Plimsoll Line and the Divorce Bill. In my long experience and, no doubt, in the long experience of one or two hon. Members opposite, there have been occasions when Private Members' Motions have had a considerable effect on the fortunes of the Government and on Parliament. This is not a thing which should be easily thrown away. I think I have the assent of Members on both sides of the House when I say that the rights of the House as a whole should be regarded. While we should not be so ungrateful as to say "no" to anything which the Government do to restore those rights, they should not he regarded as a concession, but as the realisation of the fact that the position as it existed in the last three years has been intolerable from the point of view of the interests of the House as a whole, whatever may be said from the point of view of the Government. I think right hon. Gentlemen opposite will agree that the rights in this matter rest with the House as a whole and it is the House which should decide and not the Government. The Government can use their majority to vote it down, but the right rests with the House. It would be amusing to some of the ghosts of the past if they could come back and hear some of the extraordinary theories put forward in these Debates. When they heard that the Government had actually allowed hon. Members to bring in six Bills, the answer would be. "What a miserable lot you are, whip-ridden on both sides of the House. Why not tell the Government, or the Opposition—the leaders on both benches—who are the masters." The great bulk of the Members of the House are the masters.On the only occasion in my Parliamentary career when the House did that we subsequently ran away from it.
It depends on the degree of pressure which can be exercised by individual Whips or leaders. I put the point with all seriousness to the Government and stress the fact that this is not a party Debate. There were one or two quips by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) which, no doubt, were barbed against my hon. Friends, but on the whole it has not been party Debate. There has been a general consensus of opinion that the Ten-minute Rule should be reinstated. There is no reason why the Government should not introduce a second Resolution and permit Bills to be introduced under that Rule. We might also ask whether it would be possible to have Private Members' Motions, which seem so to frighten the Government. In view of the general attitude of the House, we are entitled to ask the right hon. Gentleman to give favourable consideration to these points.
5.46 p.m.
I do not dissent for a moment from the constitutional doctrine laid down by the noble Lord the right hon. Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton). In any event it would be presumptuous of me to do so without giving very good reasons. I accept the principle that all the time of the House is at the disposal of the House as a whole. For the permanent arrangement of its business the House has provided and passed certain Standing Orders for the general convenience. Those Standing Orders remain. The position we are in today is virtually that at an earlier stage of this Session a Motion was passed which suspended the operation of the Standing Orders dealing with what, for convenience, we will call Private Members' time, because that is a phrase everyone understands, for the duration of the Session, with a promise that at a later stage in the Session the Government would propose some restoration of that time to the House. That proposed restoration is now before the House in the form of a Motion. The Government who, after all, are the creatures of the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—That surely is a sound constitutional doctrine and I am surprised to hear it sarcastically supported by the Conservative Opposition.
It is sometimes forgotten that they are the creatures of the House.
I do not think the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore) can allege that in any speech I have adopted any other attitude. I am trying to get a general agreement as to the position in which the respective Members of the House stand, those who happen for the moment to be Ministers of the Crown and those who for the moment—sitting on both sides of the House—are not Ministers of the Crown. I have endeavoured to outline what I conceive to be the correct constitutional position and I do not think that so far as I have gone the noble Lord would dissent from a single word of it. It was suggested by the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs that the Government might be grateful to Private Members for filling up some of the time. The Government programme for this Session is sufficiently full for us not to feel under the necessity of going to Private Members and saying, "We are so hard up for business that we would be grateful if you would occupy a few days, or even a few hours."
That is not yet the position. The Government have still a number of Measures which they are bound to regard as important, and which they believe their supporters regard as important, and the putting of which on to the Statute Book they regard as essential. After all, the Government of the day is the instrument through which this House governs the country, and we are entitled to point out to our supporters in the House that if we are to carry out a programme which we believe they desire we require a certain amount of time. We think that we shall not place ourselves under any serious disability if the ten Fridays which we propose under this Motion to allocate for Private Members' Bills, are devoted to that purpose. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) asked if there was anything—I do not think he used the word "sinister"; that came into the Debate later—to be particularly understood from the use by my right hon. Friend of the phrase "if required," when he talked about the three days to be taken after Whitsun. My right hon. Friend used that phrase because it may be that there will not emerge from the Committee which deals with Private Members' Bills a sufficient quantity of Business to occupy three successive Fridays at that date. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, it will very largely depend upon which Bill goes into the Committee first as to what other Measures may get through that particular Committee. If the first Bill should be a very controversial one, it may occupy so many of the days during the period open for Committee that no other Measure may emerge. That was the reason why my right hon. Friend used that phrase.
Does that mean that if sufficient work does not come from the Standing Committee on Private Members' Bills to occupy these Fridays the Government will appropriate the Fridays, or will they leave them open to Private Members to do what they like otherwise?
I would not at this stage like to answer a hypothetical question of that nature. I am only giving the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the reason why my right hon. Friend used the two words upon which, quite rightly, the right hon. and gallant Member seized, and about which he asked for an explanation.
The junior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Herbert) raised the question how many Bills were to be drawn in the Ballot. That is a matter, as I understand it, which is within the decision of Mr. Speaker. Perhaps it may be of advantage to new Members of the House, although I apologise to the senior Members for dealing with the subject, if I describe exactly what happens when the Bills have been drawn. It is obvious that the first seven Members whose names come out of the ballot box have the choice of the first turn on any particular Friday of the seven. The first man has the right to say which day he will choose. His Bill will be announced, and Mr. Speaker will then ask "What day?" and the Member will say "Friday the such and such day of a particular month." He need not take the first Friday unless he is so minded. He would be wise to do so because his Bill would then be the first to get into Committee. There may be some reason why he does not take the first Friday, and he may take the second. When these seven Fridays have been allocated the name of number eight is called. He has to do some quick thinking because it may be that the Bill put down for the first Friday will obviously run all day, so far as anyone can foresee. Everyone knows that this House is a most unpredictable place. One may think that a Bill will run the whole day and for some reason the Debate collapses, but as a rule a man can make a fair guess. It will be to his advantage, probably, to take the first of the Fridays upon which it does not appear likely that the Bill put down will run the full day. And so the procedure continues. Then, as I think the many hon. Gentlemen who were present when we had this procedure previously will agree, we get to the position when there are about three Bills for each Friday. That about fills up the programme, and it would be a rare thing for three Bills to be debated in Second Reading on a Friday. Clearly, the people after number seven have to risk getting what they regard as the best second place while second places are still open, and the third places when those are reached.Is there any reason why a Member at the end of the queue could not present his Bill and have it printed, and perhaps bob in during the later three weeks to which the right hon. Gentleman referred?
I intended to deal with the whole point but I was trying to do so in the chronological order in which matters will arise. I hope hon. Members who share with me the advantage of having seen this system in operation previously will agree that I have given a reasonable explanation of the way the thing worked, and of the considerations which guided Members when they had to choose a day upon which their Bill was to be debated.
The junior Burgess for Oxford University now says "Let us suppose that the ballot closes at 21 or 28 and there is a Member who is not getting in, why should he not be allowed to present his Bill, have it printed and put it down for one of those days?" Let us assume that such a Member is lucky enough—I think the hon. Member will agree that it would be a great stroke of luck—to get a Second Reading on one of those days. If it is other than the last Friday he will then get into Committee ahead of the person who drew number seven and who chose the last of the seven Fridays. That man who is number seven will, if his Bill gets a Second Reading, find his chance of getting his legislation through worsened by the fact that Nos. 22 or 29 or Nos. 222 or 229 has secured a Second Reading for his Bill ahead of him.May I ask the right hon. Gentleman one question merely for clarification? He said, "Supposing the ballot stops at 20 or 21."I know that I am here on delicate ground because rightly or wrongly we have left this matter to Mr. Speaker, but surely we are entitled to know whether there is any means of ascertaining when the ballot will end. That will have a considerable effect upon the right hon. Gentleman's argument. The situation—I do not reflect upon Mr. Speaker—is most unsatisfactory.
While the Debate has been proceeding I have been endeavouring to ascertain how this procedure worked previously. I understand that there has never been an absolute limit imposed by the House. The noble Lord knows that in the case of Motions, Mr. Speaker used to draw numbers out of a box, and after a certain number had been drawn there was a murmur in the House which indicated that enough had been drawn. Then no more were drawn. It generally provided for four Motions for each of the Wednesdays upon which Private Members' Motions were debated—some number like that. It might have been more, but I am quite sure that the process I have indicated was the process that was actually adopted. On each Wednesday more than two appeared on the Order Paper, because sometimes the hon. Member who had put the Motion down, for some reason or other, was not here, or the Motion was disposed of earlier and we went on to what we might call the reserve Motion——
May I interrupt to say that, if I remember rightly, one was able to introduce a Bill on that day after the ballot but it was not necessary to put it down on a Friday. It could be put down on a Government day and the chance taken of getting in on one day when the Government business collapsed.
I am trying to be as helpful as I can in this matter. While that is true, I do not think that even the hon. Gentleman could tax his memory and provide a case where such a Bill as he has described actually got a Second Reading.
May I explain—
For the purpose of the argument I was addressing to the House that did matter because the question of Second Reading depended on the order in which the Bills got into the Committee.
Supposing an hon. Member has, say the first Friday, and he is away ill. Could one of these supposed great mass of people jump in?
This, as I understand it, is the position. If at, hon. Member is away ill he loses his chance—
Anybody can move a Bill, any of the backers.
The right hon. and gallant Gentleman, to whose knowledge of procedure I bow, says that anybody, one of the backers, could move the Bill. If that is so that disposes of my hon. Friend's question. But let us suppose that all the backers are away. There may be occasions when the second Bill came on rather quickly and nobody in the House at the moment was willing to move it. That might happen. The next Bill in order on the Order Paper would be called, and the hon. Member whose name was down, or one of the backers of that Bill, would then be entitled to step into the breach. We believe—[interruption.] I hope that the hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) is not suffering from any disability?
No—I should be only too glad to have Private Members' time back.
The Government believe, and I hope that the House will believe, that Private Members will be sufficiently keen in the ballot to be able to fill up the whole of the seven Fridays. It therefore leaves us with the question: Is it worth while to have the right of presentation merely that Bills may be printed? The hon. Member the junior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Herbert) thinks it is important. I say quite frankly that I do not think it is. I think that is reducing Parliamentary procedure to something little better than a farce—
Can I be helpful to the right hon. Gentleman? I really want to be helpful. He will remember no doubt—this is referring to the Bills which have just been mentioned by the junior Burgess for Oxford University—that when a Bill was so presented and printed it was called over at 11 o'clock at night, and if the Bill was generally approved by the whole House it got a Second Reading then. Therefore it must be assumed that when it comes to Committee on one of those Fridays it would go through with the same celerity, and no one would be the loser.
I am bound to say that I used to be a very regular attendant in the House at 11 o'clock as the hon. and gallant Member knows. In fact, there were times when the late Mr. Kelly and I came in and went towards the back bench that we were received with groans by the Opposition, because they knew what was our fell purpose.
May I say that I take grave exception to the right hon. Gentleman describing my suggestion as a farce when it was the practice of the House, and had been for hundreds of years.
There are many things that this House did in bygone days that could be described as a farce if they were repeated today. I have tried to be both courteous and just to the House and I have suffered an amount of interruption that I do not think I would have received had I proceeded on another line.
The Government do not think that it is worth while merely having Bills printed for the sake of having them printed. Nor do I believe that it could be proved that any substantial Measure has ever been put through in Private Members' Time under the last arrangement described by the hon. Member the junior Burgess for Oxford University. Therefore the Government do not propose to restore that right. I come now to the question of Bills under the Ten-minute Rule. There again I wish to point out that if they are to get on to the Statute Book they will have to take precedence in Committee over the Bills that receive the high places in the ballot for the seven Fridays. We ask the House, and the House is master in these matters, to say that it is better that those Bills which are balloted for, and which have been carefully prepared, should be the Bills that should receive attention in Committee. I myself doubt whether there will be time—it would certainly be a novelty if it were the case—in the weeks allotted for the Bills that get through on the seven Fridays for all of them to be considered on Committee stage before we have to resume consideration of them after Whitsun. Therefore it seems to be quite futile to arrange for other Bills to be presented which will never have any chance of proceeding beyond a Second Reading.Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the question would he bear in mind two points? The point which he has made could very easily be dealt with by providing that the other Bills should have precedence in Committee. That would be quite easy to arrange. But, apart from that, has he not missed the point that has been repeated from both sides of the House, that the Bills moved under the Ten-minute Rule are very rarely moved with the expectation, or even the desire, that they should ever proceed beyond mere permission to be printed? The purpose of that is not the desire to see it in print, but the desire to get a quick reaction from the House, after a short argument from both sides, as to what is the feeling of the House on some short specific point.
The right hon. Gentleman has described in his own language the printing as a "farce." Will he describe in similar language, the process of speaking for ten minutes, or does not he think there is some virtue in the actual speech?
Really, the hon. Member should not invite me. But I do put that discussion in a different category from the arrangement of mere printing.
I do not think that the present is the time at which the maintenance of the Standing Order with regard to the Ten-minute Rule should be brought into use. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I thought that I had given the argument. I have known the House, on a Ten-minute Rule discussion, with only one speech on each side, give decisions which I am sure did not represent the considered opinion of the House on the issue. There was the Division taken on the Ten-minute Rule Bill, introduced by Captain Ramsay in the last House on Reuters, which was animated by a great deal of racial and anti-Semitic prejudice.It is not fair of the right hon. Gentleman to choose a Bill which he disliked. Many of these Bills were very valuable.
I did not say that there was any party issue. I admit that unfortunately people on both sides were misled on that occasion. I suggest that a discussion which is limited to ten minutes on both sides is not a very useful way of ascertaining the considered opinion of the House on a vital issue.
It is important that the House should know whether the Home Secretary is opposing the reintroduction of the Ten-minute Rule altogether as a principle, contrary to the recommendations of the Select Committee on procedure, or whether he is merely opposing its reintroduction in this Session.
I admit that I have spoken for longer than I had intended. That is largely because I have been interrupted so much. I am sure that my hon. Friend will recollect that I started off by saying that the Standing Orders of the House remain. It is the view of the House as expressed by its Standing Orders that in ordinary times the Ten-minute Rule Bills should be introduced. I am not arguing against the retention of the Ten-minute Rule under the Standing Orders. I could conceive occasions when even I—I put it deliberately like that—when even I might support the use of the Ten-minute Rule. I ask the House to say today that for this Session the Ten-minute Rule should not be reintroduced and that the virtual suspension of that Standing Order for this Session should remain. My argument throughout is entirely directed to the needs of this Session. The Government will need all the time that remains in order to carry through legislation of which my hon. Friends on this side approve. Therefore, I ask the House to agree with the Motion moved by my right hon. Friend.
6.15 p.m.
I wish to take up the challenge of my hon. Friend the Member for Combined English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) who remarked that nobody who was not here prior to 1945 had spoken in this Debate. That is an alarming and rather significant fact. It shows not only the degree to which people can acquiesce to the loss of their liberties but it is symptomatic of something which is happening in the country as a whole. A generation of people are growing up, in a society deprived of liberties, hardly realising the fact that they are being deprived of those liberties. The fact that they are not aware of this does not mean that they enjoy another kind of liberty. It is merely a very sad reflection on the ignorance which exists.
The Home Secretary has the mandate mentality. It appears that while adopting an orthodox constitutional approach to this matter, he believes that carrying through the mandate is not only politically wise and right, I would go so far as to say that he believes that in this Session of Parliament that is more an expression of public opinion than would be made by an increased amount of Private Members' time. With this I do not agree. I find it difficult to reconcile the first attitude—the orthodox constitutional approach—with his second opinion which, has behind it the whole time, the implied idea that the expression of the party mandate is really a complete expression of public opinion. As a new Member I cannot overestimate the importance of a minority point of view. It does not occur to me, being part of a political minority in this House, that what I term a minority point of view can always be expressed in Debates on major issues. The Government take a certain line over an industry or in regard to some foreign relationship. They take one line and we may oppose it. But in fact there may be an entirely different approach from an entirely different basis which, as pointed out by the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) can well be avoided by the Government. It can be precluded from the matter under discussion. What I mean by a minority point of view is in no sense the minority point of view expressed by a large political party such as my own. I would point out that the minority is always and invariably right and the majority is always invariably wrong at one stage in a controversy. In the early stage an idea starts among a few people, and very often it takes a long time for the idea to percolate and form the opinion of the majority. The Lord President of the Council appealed earlier for tidiness in Debate. That is all right in the case of a specific Debate, let us say on Middle East affairs, but the idea can be carried too far. In these times of streamlined legislation anything which promotes and encourages original ideas and even eccentricity in ideas is important. I think that not only should members be allowed but they should be encouraged to enter into the field of legislation of an entirely unofficial kind—unofficial that is to say to either party—whether it be responsible or irresponsible. For my own part, I think that this Chamber would be a very depressing place indeed if we heard expressed only a uniformity of opinion, representing the two or three parties in the House, on all matters. As I see the matter, after only three years as a Member, there is generally speaking in Debate and in approach to legislation too much uniformity. A legitimate vehicle for expression of minority views would be provided if the Home Secretary and the Government would make the maximum allowances for Private Members' time, and the real interests of the public would be further safeguarded.6.19 p.m.
I think that to those who read this Debate to obtain guidance in dealing with Private Members' Bills, it may be that the speech of the Home Secretary may create a slightly wrong impression in their minds. They may take his remarks as their full code of guidance in this matter. I am speaking of the Bills introduced under the Ten-minute Rule. I claim that there is great utility, as compared with the mere presentation of a Bill from behind the Speaker's Chair, in having an introductory speech even for only ten minutes for the purpose of explaining the objects of a Bill. It is quite possible, with an explanation of that kind, to get a Bill through its remaining stages with very little trouble.
I can go back to a recollection of my own first Session in this House. I came here first in 1929, and early in 1930 I brought in a Bill under the Ten-minute Rule to deal with the legal adoption of children in Scotland. There had been a Bill passed on almost exactly similar lines in 1926 dealing with England and Wales, but Scotland had been omitted. It was possible for me to explain very briefly the purpose of that Bill and readily to obtain the assent of the House to it being given a Second Reading. Here let me say that I agree with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that, where a Member is lucky in the Ballot, getting the Second Reading is not by any means the end of the story, because he has to contend with the number of Bills that have to go before the Committee appointed to deal with Private Members' Bills. But that does not apply in the case of Scotland. There is a Scottish Committee to which all Scottish Bills are sent, and the agreement of the House to give a Second Reading to my Bill in 1930 enabled it to go to the Scottish Grand Committee to take its Committee stage. The Bill was very slightly altered in Committee, and it was reported back to the House. There was no opposition whatever to it on Report stage, and it was given, as was right, a Third Reading without any further discussion in this House, under the arrangements whereby Bills left over at 11 o'clock at night were approved if the House as a whole was in complete agreement with them and no objection was taken. That is how the first of the three Bills for which I have been responsible became the law of the land. It was, of course, necessary for the Bill to go through another place, but that proved to be a simple matter. I am simply pointing out that, where there is complete agreement on the principle of a Bill, all that is necessary in this House to enable it to reach the Statute Book is to have an opportunity of showing clearly that the principle is approved by the whole House.6.23 p.m.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Motion, to leave out paragraph (5).
The effect of the Amendment will be to make it possible to present Bills and to allow of Debate on a Motion for leave to introduce a Bill under the Ten-minute Rule. Both these points have been very much discussed this afternoon, and I therefore do not propose to go over the ground again, but I would ask the Government, seeing that this is a matter for private Members only, that they should leave it to a free vote of the House, because all hon. Members who have spoken, from that side as well as from this, have stressed the desirability of the restoration of both these ancient rights. The right hon. Gentleman, in winding up just now, said that it was often the case that it was not worth presenting Bills for the purpose of having them printed. I want to point out that it is very well worth while having Bills printed and circulated, and that it is a device which the Government itself frequently adopt. At the end of a Session, a Government very often introduces Bills with which it has no intention of proceeding, but which are printed so that the country might become familiar with them and so that they can be proceeded with in the next Session.I am loth to interrupt the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, who is such a stickler for points of Order, but I would point out that he is making a second speech without asking the leave of the House. I do not suggest that that leave should not be granted.
I am perfectly in Order; otherwise, Mr. Speaker, you would have called me to Order. If the right hon. Gentleman has any doubts about the matter, he will find that, on page 398 of Erskine May, it is stated that, in a Debate about procedure, an hon. Member may move an Amendment even if he has spoken before. That is on page 398, and I commend it to the Deputy Leader of the House before he interrupts me next time.
I was just making the point that it is well worth while printing Bills, and that it is a practice which all Governments, so far as I recollect, and even this Government, have used. Obviously, they put forward certain proposals with which the country becomes familiar, with a view to their passage in the next Session of Parliament. With regard to the Ten-minute Rule, I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman turned that down so definitely, and I hope, in view of what was said by the right hon. Gentleman behind him, that he will change his mind and that he will not be over-influenced by the Lord President, who is on record as having said that this particular procedure, in his opinion, was farcical. Even if that is the view of the Lord President, it is not the view of the hon. Members who have spoken today. I hope that, if we do proceed to a Division—if the Government will not concede this point at this stage—there will be no question of the Government Whips giving any guidance whatever to their supporters.
6.28 p.m.
I propose to support the Government against this Amendment for two main reasons. The first is, because I believe the Government when they say that, at this moment, they have reached such a stage of their programme that it is not a foregone conclusion that we can get through that programme and simultaneously give to Private Members more time than the Motion proposes they should have. The second reason, which has not been mentioned, though it is relevant to the subject of the Ten-minute Rule, is that Members have an opportunity of raising a subject in the House and of obtaining the opinion of the House about it, at the same time having it reported in the newspapers and being able to see how the public reacts. It is relevant to observe that, since Private Members voluntarily surrendered this right under the Ten-minute rule, they have, by their ingenuity, discovered another right which to some extent compensates them. That is the right of raising matters on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House each evening. That is a power which we have always had, and which hon. Members of this House, when I first became a Member of it, could use every night. It is a power which we could use every night, but, as a matter of fact, we did not do so, if my memory serves me right. I do not remember that, night after night, Private Members raised subjects in that half-hour on the Adjournment Motion, whereas, in fact, they do so today and Ministers are now in their places night after night until a late hour to reply to these various points. The matter is duly reported in the newspapers and the public are informed. Therefore, the Private Member has been given with one hand what was taken away by another.
Is it not the case that an hon. Member would be completely out of Order if he indicated to the House any matter requiring legislation?
I appreciate that, and I do not suggest that there is an exact comparison between what has been given and what is taken away. It is conceded that the main purpose, under the Ten-minute Rule, is to raise a subject and have it ventilated, but I do suggest that the opportunities which we have on the Motion for the Adjournment compensate in a very large measure for the privilege which we have given up.
I ask my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to indicate, even by a gesture, some agreement with one rather important point I wish to make before the Division is taken. I hope he will indicate that, even during this Session, this matter will be given careful and constant reconsideration because I sympathise with the speeches made from all parts of the House which asked for more rights for Private Members. The right hon. Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) contended quite rightly that he is the oldest Member of this House. Personally, I am quite a newcomer, but if, Chinese fashion, one could include one's ancestors, there are only very few hon. Members in this House whose rights stretch back farther than mine. Therefore, I have some right to speak on the traditional rights of Private Members.
Division No. 40.]
| AYES
| [6.34 p m.
|
| Acland, Sir Richard | Champion, A. J. | Field, Capt. W. J. |
| Adams, Richard (Balham) | Chater, D. | Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington. E.) |
| Albu, A. H. | Chetwynd, G. R. | Follick, M. |
| Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) | Cluse, W. S. | Foot, M. M. |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Cobb, F. A. | Forman, J. C. |
| Alpass, J. H. | Cocks, F. S. | Fraser, T. (Hamilton) |
| Anderson, A. (Motherwell) | Collindridge, F. | Freeman, Peter (Newport) |
| Attewell, H. C. | Colman, Miss. G. M. | Ganley, Mrs. C. S. |
| Austin, H. Lewis | Comyns, Dr. L. | Gibbins, J. |
| Ayres, W. H. | Cooper. Wing-Comdr. G. | Gibson, C. W. |
| Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B. | Corlett, Dr. J. | Gilzean, A. |
| Bacon, Miss. A. | Cove, W. G. | Glanville, J. E. (Consett) |
| Balfour, A. | Crawley, A. | Gooch, E. G. |
| Barton, C. | Crossman, R. H. S. | Goodrich, H. E. |
| Battley, J. R. | Cullen, Mrs. A. | Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood) |
| Bechervaise, A. E. | Daines, P. | Grenfell, D. R. |
| Benson, G. | Davies, Edward (Burslem) | Grey, C. F. |
| Berry, H. | Davies, Ernest (Enfield) | Grierson, E. |
| Beswick, F. | Davies, Harold (Leek) | Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) |
| Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) | Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.) | Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side) |
| Bing, G. H. C. | Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Gunter, R. J. |
| Binns, J. | Deer, G. | Guy, W. H. |
| Blackburn, A. R. | Delargy, H. J. | Haire, John E. (Wycombe) |
| Blyton, W. R. | Dobbie, W. | Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil |
| Boardman, H. | Dodds, N. N. | Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R. |
| Bottomley, A. G. | Driberg, T. E. N. | Harrison, J. |
| Braddock, T. (Mitcham) | Dye, S. | Hastings, Dr. Somerville |
| Brook, D. (Halifax) | Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. | Haworth, J. |
| Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) | Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Herbison, Miss. M. |
| Brown, George (Belper) | Edwards, John (Blackburn) | Hewitson, Capt. M. |
| Brown, T. J. (Ince) | Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly) | Holman, P. |
| Bruce, Maj. D. W. T. | Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel) | Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth) |
| Burden, T. W. | Evans, Albert (Islington, W.) | Hoy, J. |
| Burke, W. A. | Evans, E. (Lowestoft) | Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.) |
| Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.) | Evans, John (Ogmore) | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) |
| Carmichael, James | Farthing, W. J. | Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.) |
| Castle, Mrs. B. A. | Fernyhough, E. | Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme) |
cedure and the remaining stages procedure to see whether those Fridays could not be made available for Private Members' Motions. I only ask that the matter should be kept in mind and, perhaps, under discussion through the usual channels, and that we should, in the words of the Leader of the House, see how we go and not settle this matter now beyond recall throughout the whole of this Session.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Sir R. Acland) has been so reasonable that he tempts me to say things which I had better not say. I think this had better be dealt with on the basis of the Session. Of course, what will happen next Session is not under consideration today, but I do not think I could give an undertaking that we could revive and review the matter during the present Session because business must be arranged in advance. Whilst I could easily say that I am willing to give anything reconsideration—which I am—it would be a little hit on the side of humbug if I were to say it in italics anyway.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes. 250; Noes, 153:
| Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) | Moyle, A. | Summerskill, Dr. Edith |
| Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool) | Murray, J. D. | Sylvester, G. O. |
| Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.) | Naylor, T. E. | Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. | Neal, H. (Claycross) | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Jeger, G. (Winchester) | Oliver, G. H. | Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet) |
| Jenkins, R. H. | Paget, R. T. | Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare) |
| Johnston, Douglas | Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) | Thomas, George (Cardiff) |
| Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool) | Pargiter, G. A. | Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin) |
| Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow) | Parkin, B. T. | Thomas, John R. (Dover) |
| Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) | Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe) | Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) |
| Keenan, W. | Paton, J. (Norwich) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Kenyon, C. | Pearson, A. | Titterington, M. F. |
| Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Peart, T. F. | Tolley, L. |
| Kinley, J. | Popplewell, E. | Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G. |
| Kirby, B. V. | Porter, E. (Warrington) | Turner-Samuels, M. |
| Kirkwood, Rt. Hon. D. | Porter, G. (Leeds) | Viant, S. P. |
| Lavers, S. | Price, M. Philips | Walkden, E. |
| Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J. | Proctor, W. T. | Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst) |
| Lee, F. (Hulme) | Pryde, D. J. | Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.) |
| Lee, Miss. J. (Cannock) | Randall, H. E. | Warbey, W. N. |
| Levy, B. W. | Ranger, J. | Watson, W. M. |
| Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. | Rankin, J. | Webb, M. (Bradford, C.) |
| Logan, D. G. | Reeves, J. | Weitzman, D. |
| Lyne, A. W. | Reid, T. (Swindon) | Wells, P. L. (Faversham) |
| McEntee, V. La. T. | Rhodes, H. | West, D. G. |
| McGhee, H. G. | Ridealgh, Mrs. M. | Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.) |
| Mack, J. D. | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) | White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.) |
| McKay, J. (Wallsend) | Rogers, G. H. R. | Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. |
| McKinlay, A. S. | Ross, William (Kilmarnock) | Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B. |
| McLeavy, F. | Royle, C. | Wilkins, W. A. |
| MacPherson, M. (Stirling) | Scott-Elliot, W. | Willey, F. T. (Sunderland) |
| Macpherson, T. (Romford) | Sharp, Granville | Willey, O. G. (Cleveland) |
| Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens) | Williams, D. J. (Neath) |
| Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield) | Shurmer, P. | Williams, R. W. (Wigan) |
| Mann, Mrs. J. | Silverman, J. (Erdington) | Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley) |
| Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.) | Simmons, C. J. | Williams, W. R. (Heston) |
| Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping) | Skeffington, A. M. | Willis, E. |
| Mathers, Rt. Hon. George | Skeffington-Lodge, T. C. | Wilmot, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Messer, F. | Skinnard, F. W. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. H. |
| Middleton, Mrs. L. | Smith, C. (Colchester) | Wise, Major F. J. |
| Mitchison, G. R. | Smith, Ellis (Stoke) | Woods, G. S. |
| Monslow, W. | Smith, H. N (Nottingham, S.) | Yates, V. F. |
| Moody, A. S. | Snow, J. W. | Young, Sir R. (Newton) |
| Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Sparks, J. A. | Zilliacus, K. |
| Morris, P. (Swansea, W.) | Stamford, W. | |
| Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.) | Stross, Dr. B. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
|
| Mort, D. L. | Stubbs, A. E. | Mr. Joseph Henderson and |
| Mr. Hannen. |
NOES
| ||
| Amory, D. Heathcoat | Davidson, Viscoutess | Hollis, M. C. |
| Astor, Hon. M. | Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery) | Hope, Lord J. |
| Baldwin, A. E. | De la Bère, R. | Howard, Hon. A. |
| Barlow, Sir J. | Dodds-Parker, A. D. | Hurd, A. |
| Baxter, A. B. | Dower, Col. A. V. G. (Penrith) | Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.) |
| Beamish, Maj. T. V. H. | Drayson, G. B. | Jeffreys, General Sir G. |
| Beechman, N. A. | Drewe, C. | Jennings, R. |
| Bennett, Sir P. | Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond) | Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W. |
| Birch, Nigel | Duthie, W. S. | Kendall, W. D. |
| Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) | Eccles, D. M. | Langford-Holt, J. |
| Boothby, R. | Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Waller | Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. |
| Bossom, A. C. | Erroll, F. J. | Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. |
| Bowen, R. | Fletcher, W. (Bury) | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. |
| Bower, N. | Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale) | Lindsay, K. M. (Comb'd Eng. Univ.) |
| Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. | Galbraith, Comdr. T. D. (Pellok) | Lindsay, M. (Solihull) |
| Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G. | Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) | Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.) |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. | George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey) | Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral) |
| Brown, W. J. (Rugby) | Glyn, Sir R. | Low, A. R. W. |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T | Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. | Lucas, Major Sir J. |
| Bullock, Capt. M. | Granville, E. (Eye) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. |
| Butcher, H. W. | Gridley, Sir A. | MacAndrew, Col. Sir C. |
| Byers, Frank | Gruffydd, Prof. W. J. | McCallum, Maj. D. |
| Carson, E. | Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley) | Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight) |
| Challen, C. | Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) | McFarlane, C. S. |
| Channon, H. | Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.) | Mackeson, Brig. H. R. |
| Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G. | Harris, H. Wilson (Cambridge Univ.) | McKie, J. H. (Galloway) |
| Conant, Maj. R. J. E. | Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V. | MacLeod, J. |
| Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow) | Haughton, S. G. | Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) |
| Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C. | Maitland, Comdr. J. W. |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. | Henderson, John (Cathcart) | Manningham-Buller, R. E. |
| Crowder, Capt. John E. | Herbert, Sir A. P. | Marshall, D. (Bodmin) |
| Cuthbert, W. N. | Hinchingbrooke, Viscount | Marshall, S. H. (Sutton) |
| Darling, Sir W. Y. | Hogg, Hon. Q. | Maude, J. C. |
| Mellor, Sir J. | Ropner, Col. L. | Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth) |
| Molson, A. H. E | Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry) | Thornton-Kemsley, C. N. |
| Moore, LI.-Col. Sir T. | Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. | Turton, R. H. |
| Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen) | Savory, Prof. D. L. | Vane, W. M. F. |
| Morrison, Rt. Hn. W. S. (Cirencester) | Scott, Lord W. | Wadsworth, G. |
| Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. | Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow) | Wakefield, Sir W. W. |
| Odey, G. W. | Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W. | Ward, Hon. G. R. |
| Orr-Ewing, I. L. | Snadden, W. M. | Watt, Sir G. S Harvie |
| Osborne, C. | Spence, H. R. | Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.) |
| Peake, Rt. Hon. O. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. O. | White, Sir D. (Fareham) |
| Pitman, I. J. | Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. | White, J. B. (Canterbury) |
| Ponsonby, Col. C. E. | Strauss, Henry (English Universities) | Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge) |
| Price-White, Lt.-Col. D. | Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. | Studholme, H. G. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth) | Sutcliffe, H. | York, C. |
| Roberts, H. (Handsworth) | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) | Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.) | |
| Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham) | Teeling, William | TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
|
| Robinson, Roland | Thomas, Ivor (Keighley) | Commander Agnew and |
| Mr. Wingfield Digby. |
Main Question put, and agreed to. Ordered:
"That—(1) save as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of this order, Government business shall have precedence at every sitting for the remainder of the Session; (2) Public Bills other than Government Bills shall have precedence over Government business on Friday, 11th February and on the six next succeeding Fridays; (3) on and after Friday, 24th June, Public Bills other than Government Bills shall be arranged on the order paper in the followingorder:—Considerations of Lords Amendments, Third Readings, Considerations of Report not already entered upon and adjourned proceedings on Consideration; and Bills so arranged shall have precedence over Government business on Friday, 24th June, and on the two next succeeding Fridays; (4) the ballot for unofficial Members' Bills shall be held on Thursday, 27th January, under arrangements to be made by Mr. Speaker and the Bills shall be introduced at the commencement of public business on Friday, 28th January; and (5) for the remainder of the Session no Public Bills other than Government Bills or Bills introduced under paragraph (4) of this Order shall be introduced."
Orders Of The Day
Cinematograph Film Production (Special Loans) Bill
Order for Third Reading read.
6.44 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
In moving the Third Reading of this Bill, I should very much desire to pay tribute to the helpful spirit in which it has been received and discussed on both sides of the House. Like the quota Measure which was introduced about this time a year ago, it has gone through its Second Reading and Committee stages without even a single division; and, although none of the Amendments which were put forward was technically acceptable I sympathise with the object of the Amendments which were moved. As the House will recall, the Bill's purpose is to provide supplementary transitional finance, on a self-liquidating basis, for an expanding output of British films, both to entertain the film-going public at home, and to reflect abroad as well as at home the British way of life. Quite apart from any question of what entertainment the public prefers—and I do not think our quota in any way exaggerates the proportion of British made entertainment which the public prefers—we are compelled by dire economic necessity, and will be compelled for some considerable time to come, to reduce the costs of our screen entertainment in terms of dollars for films from America. This means that the public demand for ample and varied screen entertainment can only continue to be satisfied if British cinemas can be assured of an adequate output from film studios in this country, and that demand can only be met if the industry receives and deserves the requisite measure of financial support. It is, of course, as the House has agreed on all sides, a matter for regret that because of the industry's transitional difficulties, a proportion of this financial support has to be provided from Exchequer sources, but, as I have already made clear on a number of occasions, it is intended that that support shall be self-liquidating. The House has generously recognised that it was the clear duty of the Government to act, and, above all, to act promptly, in this difficult situation which confronts them, and, apart from the point of detail which was raised by the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton), the principle of which I fully accept—a point of detail which will now have to stand over for consideration perhaps in another place—this Bill can fairly be described as the formal expression of the House's recognition of the need for some action by the Government. I do not make any claim that the Bill by itself will afford any ready made solution for all the problems of film production. In particular, of itself it will not solve the crucial problem of bringing down costs, but it will take one stage further the process of piecing together a framework within which the two sides of production, the producers on the one hand and employees and technicians on the other, can and must work together to achieve stability in the industry for their own common advantage and for that of the country. In other words, the Bill paves the way towards a revival of confidence in the industry. It cannot create that confidence, but, given the help which this Bill will provide, the industry has now got the job of pressing on with setting its house in order for itself. I am quite sure, after the response we had in the Second Reading and the Committee stage, that the House will give its support to this Bill. 1 now ask the House to approve the Third Reading of the Bill in the same spirit in which earlier stages were carried through.6.49 p.m.
The President of the Board of Trade said that this is largely an agreed Measure, and that is the case. He has been courteous enough to tell me that he will see that in another place an Amendment will be introduced—of course, 1 cannot discuss it in detail—which will go towards meeting the last point which I raised. Clearly, I cannot discuss such an Amendment, of which I only know the general terms, but I take this opportunity of thanking him for doing that. The Government's proposal will be examined very carefully in another place, and I hope the point I have made will be met.
There is only one other point which I wish to raise, and that arises out of some remarks which the right hon. Gentleman made in the Debate on the Committee stage. These are his words:Is the President in a position to say anything more on that subject? If he says he has not had time to gain experience, I must accept that answer, but I know that many hon. Members agree with me in attaching great importance to the advent of the day when loans will be made direct to producers instead of through another organisation. I do not know whether anyone else will speak for the Government tonight, but I ask that this point should be considered. The right hon. Gentleman is, of course, quite right in saying that the provision of this finance in itself makes no contribution to the lowering of costs. I think that is self-evident. Nevertheless, I think it will be of some benefit to the industry, and I hope that the very grave risk which is to be taken with taxpayers' money will he rewarded at least by seeing the future of British films on a sounder basis."I can tell the Committee that it is my intention, as soon as the necessary experience has been gained, to allow the Corporation to lend money direct to producers in all classes of case, if I can use that phrase, which are suitably defined and I should regard it as my duty to state the classes of case we were proposing to approve. But I would not like to tie myself down at the moment. …"— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th December, 1948; Vol. 459, c. 425.]
6.52 p.m.
I want merely to say one or two things about what has happened in connection with this Bill since the Committee stage. I felt that the Committee stage was a little confused and, re-reading it, I found it even more confused than I thought at the time. It is confused because this is a most confusing industry. Things which make sense in other industries make nonsense in this industry, and it is extremely difficult for many people to grasp the situation.
I am disturbed by the thought that this Measure may well be a dead letter, for it is very disturbing to find that distributors are not being attracted by the proposition. They feel that if they have to pledge their assets in order to get assistance from this Corporation the question arises what use is it to them anyhow? They prefer to keep away from it altogether. Secondly, we have distributors who are relatively small in the industry, or who have recently come into it and who intend to utilise the facilities granted by the Corporation to become more or less little empires of their own, presumably on the strength of Government assistance. That is not the intention of this Bill. I believe there is a danger that the Bill will not really come to fruition at all. I am also very much concerned by the fact that independent producers do not want to take advantage of this Measure. Independent producers have definitely stated that they do not intend to come forward and ask for assistance under this Bill. They do not intend to do so for the very simple reason that in the present economic circumstances of the industry it is quite impossible to make a picture which pays. Rather than take Government money, or anybody else's money for that matter, they say they prefer to stay out of the business. We have the freelance people at present virtually doing nothing and having no intention at the present time of taking advantage of the provisions of this Bill. I am afraid, therefore, that it is very likely that so far as its effect on the man we want to help—the independent or freelance producer—is concerned, this Bill may well be a dead letter. I want to draw the attention of the President of the Board of Trade to the danger of the producer getting into the hands of distributors who appear to have no moral sense whatever. I saw a letter the other day from a firm of distributors to a producer about a certain production. This distributor, who has applied for aid under the Government scheme, said he would guarantee 60 per cent.—guarantee, not advance—of the cost of the Bill. For that he said he would require his usual distribution cost of 25 per cent. and on top of that would want 75 per cent. of the profits. That places the producer in an intolerable position. He gets 60 per cent. guaranteed. He has to find the whole of the money elsewhere, and has to go to somebody and say, "I have 25 per cent. of the profits; I will take 10 per cent. myself, and I will give you 15 per cent." I hope the President of the Board of Trade will realise that this Bill will be no use at all unless there are other reforms in the industry. It is no good dealing with this financial aspect in isolation. We have to deal with the hold which the distributor has on the business, the all-too-large slice which he takes out of it. I want an answer to the point raised by the hon. Member for East Islington (Mr. E. Fletcher) about the precise relationship between the Corporation and the distributor. At the time the point was raised the President could not say very much at all. What is to be the relationship between the distributor and the Corporation? Will the Corporation determine the programme or select suitability, or are we to depend purely on the financial standing of the distributor? I welcome this Bill, as do most people, but having seen the results in the last month or so I fear it will not fulfil the high expectations raised when it was introduced. I am afraid there is a grave possibility that it will go the way of the Cotton Spinning Act introduced into this House and passed some time ago; I fear it will not work. If the President wants to see it work he must take very active steps to deal with the things which are basically wrong with the industry—the abnormally high costs, the too-large share which the distributor takes. He must see that those things are put right, for in isolation this Bill can do nothing to save the British film industry from disaster.6.58 p.m.
I want to say a word or two about this Bill before it passes from this House. I agree that much must be done to cut down the cost of production. Like other hon. Members, as I go around the country I hear the many stories which are being told about high costs, empty studios and so on, but I also meet exhibitors and I know that some of the best films which have been produced here are not being shown in hundreds of cinemas in the country. This Bill refers to those who have a reasonable expectation of being able to arrange for the production or distribution of cinematograph films. I want to know what is implied by the phrase "distribution of cinematograph films"? Does it mean that there is the possibility of distributing films around the big circuits or does it mean distributing films among cinemas from one end of the country to the other?
The President of the Board of Trade knows, as every hon. Member should know, that one of the big problems is the fact that neither the producer nor the distributor can give any possible guarantee of getting a film into the cinemas of this country except in the case of the big circuits. If the Minister is to take seriously the question of the distribution of cinematograph films he must do something more to ensure that the hundreds of cinemas which are scattered throughout the country, and where it is essential that the best films produced in this country should be shown, are able to show these films. Every hon. Member knows that is the case. In how many cinemas outside the big circuits, for instance, will "Hamlet" be shown? There are hundreds of cinemas in the country where. from a cultural and educational point of view, such a film ought to be shown. The same question applies to many of the films that are produced by independent producers. What guarantee will the Minister demand that the people who are in most need of the distribution of these films will have the films distributed to them? I would suggest that he has a talk with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see. in connection with the special films under the Bill, not only that the assistance promised in the Bill is given, but whether it can be arranged in some way that the smaller cinemas will have them without the payment of Entertainment Duty—or something to that effect. At any rate, I want to insist that something must be done to make this part of the Bill a reality. The distribution of films must not simply mean that the distributor is satisfied with the possibility or opportunity of distributing films through the big circuits. It ought to mean that the distributor is in a position to guarantee that he can get the films into the cinemas as a whole. I would impress on him the great importance of getting the best of the films to the poorer districts of the industrial areas and to the country areas, where it is very seldom that they have any possibility of seeing any of the good, highly desirable cultural films that have been produced in this country.Has the hon. Member any device to propose whereby cinemas outside the main circuits could be compelled to take films such as "Hamlet" if they do not want them?
They cannot be compelled because they are not in a position to pay for the films; so I would suggest that measures be taken along with this Bill to ensure that the films will be distributed. One of the ways to ensure that, in the case of a film produced under this Bill, would be to relieve the smaller cinemas from Entertainment Duty when showing such films. At any rate, the President of the Board of Trade should be prepared to think out ways and means to ensure that these films will be shown where they are most needed—not only in the cinemas of the big circuits, but in the other cinemas in the poorer, working-class districts, and especially in the rural districts. There are some places where people scarcely ever see films of real educational or cultural value, but only the poorest and cheapest films. That is a bad situation. It means that we do not obtain the best results for the people from the films produced.
I know that hon. Members on the other side of the House are not interested in people who cannot afford big prices. They can go to the West End. What is 7s. 6d. or 10s. 6d. or a couple of guineas for a seat to hon. Members on the other side? Nothing at all. However, many people in this country, working men and women in the industrial and rural areas, never have an opportunity of seeing the best of these films, and I want to impress on the Minister, and upon hon. Members on the other side of the House, that the distribution of films should include the possibility of their distribution, not only in the cinemas of the big circuits, but in cinemas throughout the land. If the Minister takes that matter up he will be doing a valuable job, not only for the industry but for the development of culture amongst the people of the country.7.5 p.m.
If I may have leave to speak again I should like to deal with the questions put to me. In reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttleton), I am sorry that I cannot now indicate the class of case in which direct assistance will be available. We are working hard on the question, and intend to make it a real thing. I am sure the House would wish us to go into the matter very carefully for the reasons that the right hon. Gentleman and I and others expressed at earlier stages of the Bill. The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) asked a number of questions' about distribution. All I can say is that they do not really fall within the Bill. The Committee on distribution is working hard on all these questions at the present time, and I hope that many if not all of the questions asked by the hon. Member will be covered by that inquiry.
The hon. Member for Bucklow (Mr. W. Shepherd) said that he thought that the Bill was already showing signs of becoming a dead letter. The Bill is not yet through the House, and the Corporation is not set up. As I have explained to the right hon. Gentleman, we have not been able to set in motion 'that side of the Corporation's activities which deals with direct finance to production companies. That is where he and I and, I am sure, all of us are looking to see, perhaps, the biggest gain in the future from the provisions of the Bill.Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and pased.
Railway And Canal Commission (Abolition) Money
Resolution reported:
"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to abolish the Railway and Canal Commission and make provision for the future exercise and performance of their functions; to amend and repeal certain enactments relating to their functions; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of pensions to or in respect of persons who suffer loss of employment in consequence of the abolition of the said Commission."
Resolution agreed to.
Railway And Canal Commission (Abolition) Bill Lords
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. BOWLES in the Chair]
Clauses 1 to 7 agreed to.
New Clause—(Pensions For Persons Suffering Loss Of Employment)
The Lord Chancellor may pay, out of moneys provided by Parliament, to or in respect of any person who suffers loss of employment in consequence of the abolition of the Commission and as to whom the Lord Chancellor, with the approval of the Treasury, determines that such provision should be made, such pension as he may so determine.—[ The Attorney-General.]
Brought up, and read the First time.]
7.9 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
The Committee will remember that on the Second Reading of the Bill I undertook to put down, in Committee, a new Clause providing for the payment of a pension to the last surviving member of the Court which this Bill will abolish. The Committee will remember that that gentleman is Lord Maenan, to whom I venture respectfully to refer as having a remarkably long record of public service in the courts of this country and in other fields. I am quite certain that the Committee would desire that on his relinquishing his present position—one of a number of judicial and other positions that he has held—he should receive an appropriate pension. The charge upon the State is not likely to be a very heavy one because of circumstances which will be apparent to the Committee, but I am quite certain that it would be the desire of the Committee to make sure that provision was made, and that that provision should not be ungenerous.I rise to welcome this new Clause. On the Second Reading, to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has referred, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) also paid tribute to the work of this last surviving member of the Railway and Canal Commission. We welcome the Clause as a valuable addition to the Bill, and we hope that Lord Maenan will be able to take full advantage of it.
As an old member of the northern circuit, I feel that I must say how glad I am that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has moved this new Clause. Anyone who has practised on that circuit knows the immense services rendered in a judicial capacity by Lord Maenan, and must feel glad that those services are being recognised in this House.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause read a Second time and added to the Bill.
Schedule agreed to.
Bill reported, with an Amendment; as amended considered; read the Third time, and passed with an Amendment.
Savings Banks Bill
As amended in the Standing Committee considered.
New Clause—(Orders Under Savings Banks Act, 1920, Section 2 To Be Subject To Annulment)
Any order made under section two of the Savings Banks Act, 1920 (which section confers on the Treasury power to regulate within certain limits the rate of interest paid to trustee savings banks on their deposits), shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.—[ Mr. Glenvil Hall.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
7.12 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Clause he read a Second time."
Section 2 of the Savings Banks Act, 1920, empowers the Treasury, by order and within limits, to vary the interest rate on the deposits made by trustee savings banks with the National Debt Commissioners, but the 1920 Act did not make provision for these particular orders to come before this House and to be annulled if the House so decided. When we discussed this matter in Committee upstairs, the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll) raised the point. I then agreed that I would bring in a new Clause in proper form on Report. This is the Clause. It is technical in form. In 1946, we passed the Statutory Instruments Act and Section 5 (1) of that Act comes into play wherever the words which we use in this new Clause are inserted in a Bill passed after the date of that Act. The effect is that the words in the Clause will make it possible for any order made in future to be brought before this House and to be annulled by negative Resolution.We are indeed grateful to the Financial Secretary for meeting us in this way. The new Clause will enable matters affecting the trustee savings banks and their interest rate to be discussed at any time when the interest rate is changed. That may be a small matter, but, after all, the trustee savings banks are very rarely discussed in this House, and it is obviously desirable that it should be possible to discuss their finances as they will be affected by any change in interest rate when the Treasury are proposing to change that rate. We are most grateful to the Financial Secretary for making this possible to the House.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause read a Second time and added to the Bill.
Clause 1—(Grants By Trustee Savings Banks For The Benefit Of Other Trustee Savings Banks)
7.15 p.m.
I beg to move, in page 1, line 6, after the first "Commissioners," to insert "and the Association."
I hope the Government will accept this Amendment. The Bill, as a whole, is a generally agreed Measure, and Clause 1 creates the new procedure for dealing with mutual arrangements between the various trustee savings banks. It is clear that any such mutual arrangements must be subject to the approval of the Commissioners of the National Debt. It is equally clear, and desirable, that they should be subject to the approval of the Association which represents all the individual savings banks. It is, I understand, the practice, and has been so for some years past, that discussions and consultations take place with the Association before the Commissioners give any approval to any arrangements of this sort. The purpose of the Amendment is to make the present practice, which is agreed to by all parties as being desirable, statutory. May I add a few words as to the reasons why I hope the Government will see fit to accept this Amendment? I would refer to the discussion which took place upstairs in Committee when I raised this point, although I did not put down a formal Amendment. During that discussion I pointed out, as I have already said, that this was an existing and accepted practice which everyone agreed was a right and proper one and, therefore, it seemed right and proper that it should form part of the legislation covering the transactions of these banks. The Financial Secretary, replying, said:He then added:"The Association had been in existence for a good many years now. From what I hear, and from what I have seen of its work, I consider that it takes its job very seriously, and that it does everything it can to help the weaker banks who may want these advances. I believe that the future of the Savings Bank movement is well secured under the guidance of the Association. It is absolutely essential that the National Debt Commissioners come into the picture."
I am sure that they do work together in great amity and in view of the fact that the Financial Secretary has already stated that he thinks that the Association should come into this picture, I can see no reason why he should not—and I hope that he will—accept the Amendment."I agree that the Association should also. I like to feel that the two work together in great amity."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee A, 30th November, 1948; c. 21–22.]
I beg to second the Amendment.
It is obvious that according to past practice that the Commissioners would not of course act independently of the Association. On the other hand, it is desirable to safeguard the future. We have the position in the Clause as it stands at present whereby the trustee savings banks can, on their own, approach the Commissioners direct without referring to the Association.indicated dissent.
The Financial Secretary shakes his head, and I am prepared to be corrected. As I read the Subsection, it appears that the trustees savings banks can make a direct approach to the Commissioners, and while this is unlikely, we think it is undesirable to leave so obvious a loophole, particularly as the Association referred to in latter parts of the Bill is an integral part of the working machinery envisaged by the Bill. We feel it advisable that it should be written into the Subsection that trustee savings banks must get the approval of the Commissioners and the Association before a grant can be made.
The object of Clause 1, which is the essential Clause of the Bill, is to permit assistance by way of grant to be made by one trustee savings bank to another. As the Clause stands, the approval of the National Debt Commissioners alone is necessary. However, the hon. Member for the St. George's Division of Westminster (Mr. Howard) wishes to insert words which will make it essential for the approval of the Association, in addition to that of the National Debt Commissioners, to be sought and obtained before these grants are made. This Measure is not a party Measure in any sense or form. We have throughout dealt with it in a most amicable way, and I for one do not approach the suggestion made by the two hon. Members opposite in any party spirit. When I considered this Amendment, I asked myself two questions: first, is it necessary that these words should go in? If so, no further query arises. Second, if it is not necessary, is it desirable and expedient; that is to say, would it help to increase the prestige of the Association, or help the trustee savings banks? For reasons which I will now give, I came to the conclusion that the words were not necessary and that it would be wrong for the House to insert them.
I agree straight away—and I think it was said by more than one speaker in Committee—that the Association is doing a very great work. We should not only recognise that, but we should pay tribute to the public spirit of those who assist this organisation; indeed we should encourage them as much as we can. But we must remember that the Association is a voluntary body. Most of the banks belong to it, but they need not do so if they do not wish. Although the members of the Association are nominated by the banks, they are not the banks themselves but only individuals. In addition under its constitution the executive of the Association has the power to add honorary members who may or may not have anything to do with the trustee savings banks movement. The constitution of this Association is, therefore, somewhat loose; indeed apart from the right to collect subscriptions, it has no power whatever to bind the banks. We must remember that when we consider whether references of this kind should be made in a Bill of this sort. When we come to consider whether the proposed words are necessary, we have to remember the wording of the Clause. Under Subsection (3) the Commissioners cana grant, which is passed on to a specified savings bank. Now this is an agreed Measure with the Association and the plain implication and intention of those words is that the Association itself should take the initiative when these grants are being made. If that is so, and if the Association itself is in a sense making and fathering the application, it seems rather curious that we should specially insert such words to make their approval of the grant an essential ingredient when the grant comes to be made. The Association and the whole field of its activities aim at helping the savings banks, and it is hardly likely that it would veto an application for a grant that was asked for and was being made. Therefore, in our view, it is unnecessary to insert these words, because it would mean that the people who ask for the grant will, after they have asked for it, be asked whether they approve of it. We think that it is a redundancy which we ought not to countenance."upon the application of the Association … if they think fit, debit the Mutual Assistance Account with"
Is the Financial Secretary telling the House that under Subsection (3) the words
means they cannot do it except upon the application?"The Commissioners … may, if they think fit, debit"
A scheme to that end is now being worked out by those concerned, but the wording as set forth in Subsection (3) is that all these applications must come through the Association. That being so, it is quite obvious that they must agree to them and that there is no need to insert further words to say that no grant can be made until they do so. It is, however, necessary that the National Debt Commissioners themselves should have the right to withhold their approval, because it is one of their functions to act for the public and to see that the provisions laid down in statutes are complied with. But the Association has no such obligation; it has no obligations to the public as such, though it certainly has obligations to the banks themselves because it is the body which watches their interests. For those reasons, which I do not wish to elaborate further, I ask the House to resist this Amendment.
The hon. Member for St. George's Division of Westminster (Mr. Howard) was quite right when he said that the Association is now consulted to a very large extent. In fact, the Association is consulted by those concerned well beyond the provisions of the 1929 Act. Therefore, if the fear of the two hon. Members opposite is that the Association will is some way be cold-shouldered in the future, I can assure them that that is far from being the intention. It is the desire of the National Debt Commissioners and the Treasury that in the future, as in the past, the Association shall be consulted in every possible direction, consonant with the powers vested in the various authorities concerned. We want the savings banks to get the full benefit of the Association's activities and of the provisions of this and other Acts of Parliament.The right hon. Gentleman has made a very persuasive speech, and I hope that my hon. Friends will not think it necessary to press this matter, because I think the Financial Secretary has made it quite clear that this collaboration and prior consultation are intended to take place, and do take place. The only thing I have in mind is this. When the right hon. Gentleman referred to Subsection (3) he implied—indeed, I think he said—that the Commissioners would not make these grants except upon the application of the Association, and that it was not necessary to bring them in at this further stage because they had been brought in earlier. If that is what is meant to be the interpretation of Subsection (3) perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will look at it again in the subsequent stages, because on the face of it, it is not obvious that it is only upon the application of the Association that the matter arises.
do so and so does not seem to me necessarily to mean that unless they apply they cannot do it. If that is really the intention perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will see whether it is necessary to make it abundantly clear in the words of the statute."The Commissioners, upon the application of the Association, may"
indicated assent.
I am grateful to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman for his observations, which, I hope, will be noted. In view of what the Financial Secretary has said, and if he will look into this point, I am quite prepared to withdraw the Amendment.
indicated assent.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.7.30 p.m.
I beg to move, in page 2, line 4, after "books," to insert "of the Commissioners."
This is a drafting Amendment. When we dealt with this matter upstairs, we transposed certain Subsections, altering their order, although not their wording. The words in this Amendment were unfortunately missed out. I apologise to the House for that, and we now desire to reinsert them.I am sure we accept the most handsome apology the right hon. Gentleman has tendered to us, but I hope he will see whether this phrase could not be written a little better. When I first saw the Amendment I wondered if it was right, with so many "ofs."
It is a very awkward piece of English and perhaps once more it could be turned round and made right. Amendment agreed to."… in the books of the Commissioners of any trustee savings bank so specified."
I beg to move, in page 2, line 8, after "Commissioners," to insert "and the Association."
The point of principle here is the same as in the previous case, that the approval of the Association should be active and real just as the approval of the Commissioners is necessary, but it is a little bit different in regard to the safeguard to which the Financial Secretary called the attention of the House. There are two ways in which this mutual assistance can be met. The first is by a payment into a mutual assistance account and then the payment out of that account to the receiving bank. With that point we have already dealt, for it is the one, as the Financial Secretary has told us, which is safeguarded. The second one dealt with in this subsection is where a grant is made direct from one bank to another, not through the mutual assistance account. In this case the approval and consultation with the Association is not in any way safeguarded by other subsections. I will not argue the point of principle, because that is clear, but I want to ask the Financial Secretary to accept this Amendment, which, clearly, is in line with the principle with which we are all agreed, but which is not safeguarded as was the previous Amendment.I beg to second the Amendment.
I quite agree that there is more reason, if we are to insert these words at all, to insert them in Subsection (4); but, as those who remember our discussions upstairs will recollect, we transposed these subsections to make it clear that the principle method by which these grants would be made would be by payment through the mutual assistance account. Actually, the method here mentioned will rarely, if ever, be used. In fact, it is not proposed to use this method at all in normal cases; but it was felt, when this matter was under discussion, that there should be some sort of elasticity in order to provide for cases of emergency, which I, for one, can hardly visualise.
A scheme is being worked out between the Association and those concerned, and the method adopted will in all cases be the method laid down under Subsection (3). The Association can then take the initiative and, when the Commissioners receive the application, they can approve or not, as the case may be. The hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll) no doubt had Subsection (4) in his mind when he said what he did in his first speech. But the savings banks do not intend to use it except under special circumstances. The association is mentioned in the Act of 1929, but it is not a statutory body in any sense or form, and, though it has been and is being consulted on every occasion, it would not perhaps be fair to put the words suggested into a Bill of this kind. They would appear to give it a power and an influence which is out of all proportion. Therefore, I hope that the hon. Gentleman the Member for the St. George's division of Westminster (Mr. Howard) will not press this Amendment because, if he does, I shall have to resist it.The right hon. Gentleman has referred on two or three occasions to the fact that a scheme is being drafted between the Association and the banks. This Bill does not make it necessary to bring it before the House, but could we have an assurance that some means will be found of giving publicity to the scheme, either by placing it in the Library when it is arranged, or in some other place so that Members interested can see the end of the story?
Most certainly. I assume the savings banks themselves will desire that their members should know what is being done. Apart from that, I will consult my advisers on this, and I will see if a copy of the scheme, when prepared, can be placed in the Library for the use of hon. Members.
Thank you.
Amendment negatived.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."—[ Mr. Glenvil Hall.]
7.37 p.m.
I should preface my remarks on the Third Reading of this Bill, by making it quite clear that I fully appreciate that the Bill is an agreed Measure between the Treasury and the trustee savings banks concerned. Therefore, to introduce any note other than that of agreement might seem to verge on carping criticism. On the other hand, I feel it necessary to point out one or two facts about this Bill. The Bill covers a number of technical matters, with which on Third Reading we are not concerned. On the other hand, the Bill has come into being because of the Treasury's intention to reduce interest rates paid to the banks, and this interest rate was agreed to as a result of discussions, on the understanding that the richer banks or the banks with larger accumulated funds might be allowed to transmit them to the smaller, newer or poorer banks anxious to use such funds for development purposes.
Under normal conditions no objection could be made to such a process of bargaining, because both sides would gain equally, but it is certainly unnecessarily harsh for the Treasury to insist on a reduction of interest rates at the present time when the banks in the next year or two will be incurring a number of increased expenses, the full magnitude of which cannot be properly assessed at the present time. It is indeed a striking commentary on the efficiency of the trustee savings banks that at a time when all forms of Government expenditure are increasing, the Treasury is managing to secure that the trustee savings banks shall, in fact, receive less money for performing increased services to the community. It is striking, too, that the trustee savings banks are able to accept this demand from the Treasury and apparently still remain solvent. I would urge the Financial Secretary to bear in mind the possible need of reverting once more to higher interest rates in the near future, on account of the many increased costs which the trustee savings banks will be called upon to bear. First of all there are salaries. Salaries are everywhere increasing. In 1948 there were more wage increases than in 1947. It is, therefore, unlikely that salaries will fail to show something of an upward trend during 1949 and 1950. Holidays with pay, larger insurance contributions and many other fixed overheads are now bigger than they were one or two years ago. At the same time office costs are tremendously inflated. Stationery is more expensive and so is office furniture and equipment, not only because of their true cost but because the Treasury levy Purchase Tax upon them. It therefore has become much more expensive to enlarge office premises and to take on additional work. I suggest that it may well be necessary to revert to the present interest rate in the near future, because of the increased working expenses of trustee savings banks. I know that the better-established banks have accumulated large surpluses in the past. The Treasury, in its frugal way, has now deemed those surpluses to be too large for present needs, but those surpluses only show what valuable work these trustee savings banks have done. It is unfortunate that they should be compelled to part with their surpluses to other banks at a time when they may require to use them themselves. It is important to remember the valuable part which trustee savings banks have played in the savings movement of this country. Nowhere, where a trustee savings bank has been set up, has the volume of savings through the Post Office Savings Bank been diminished. The trustee savings banks therefore attract a volume of new savings which has not been attracted hitherto by any other form of Government appeal either through Savings Bonds or the Post Office Savings Bank. Trustee savings banks offer, too, a service which inevitably is not available from over the ordinary post office counter. They are managed by men with banking knowledge and knowledge of human affairs. They are thus enabled to render advice and service which is much appreciated by customers who patronise those banks. I hope the fact will be fully appreciated that trustee savings banks occupy a very special place in the savings economy of this country. It would be false economy to impoverish them in any way and so to reduce the service which they have been rendering to the community in the past and which, given a proper measure of financial assistance from the Treasury, they will be able to render in the future.Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
Licensing Money
Resolution reported:
"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to extend State management to new towns and adjoining areas and to make further provision as respects State management districts, to provide for the payment of allowances to members of licensing courts and courts of appeal in Scotland, and to make provision for other matters, it is expedient to0 authorise—(a) The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the expenses of the Secretary of State incurred under the said Act in the State management of the liquor trade in the existing State management districts, in new towns and in adjoining areas, and the payment into the Exchequer of the receipts of the Secretary of State arising therefrom; (b) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in the sums payable out of such moneys under Part II of the Local Government Act, 1948, being an increase attributable to the provisions of the said Act of the present Session relating to the payment of allowances to members of licensing courts and courts of appeal in Scotland."
Resolution agreed to.
Legal Aid And Advice Money
Resolution reported:
"That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make legal aid and advice in England and Wales, and in the case of members of the forces legal advice elsewhere, more readily available for persons of small or moderate means, to enable the cost of legal aid or advice for such persons to be defrayed wholly or partly out of moneys provided by Parliament, and for purposes connected therewith, it is expedient to authorize—A. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the net sums required to meet payments out of any fund set up under the Act in connection with the provision of legal aid and legal advice if (subject to any discretion of the Lord Chancellor to modify the Act by regulations thereunder to meet special cases)— (a) legal aid under the Act— (i) is not made available for persons whose disposable income as determined under the Act exceeds four hundred and twenty pounds a year; and (ii) may be refused to a person if he has a disposable capital as so determined of more than five hundred pounds and it appears he can afford to proceed without legal aid; and (b) a person given legal aid under the Act may be required to contribute to the fund up to a maximum equal to one-half the amount by which his disposable income as so determined exceeds one hundred and fifty-six pounds a year together with the full amount by which his disposable capital as so determined exceeds seventy-five pounds (subject, however, to repayment of any excess of the contribution over the net liability of the fund on his account); B. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in the expenses of the National Assistance Board attributable to any provision of the Act relating to the determination of a person's disposable income or capital or to a person's contribution to any such fund as aforesaid; C. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of travelling and other allowances to members of any advisory committee set up by the Lord Chancellor for the purposes of the Act; D. The repayment to local funds out of moneys provided by Parliament of any costs paid out of those funds by virtue— (a) of any grant of free legal aid under the Criminal Appeal Act, 1907, the Poor Prisoners' Defence Act, 1930, or the Summary Jurisdiction (Appeals) Act, 1933, as amended, extended or applied by any other Act (including the said Act of the present Session): or (b) of a person's defence before a court of assize or quarter sessions being conducted by counsel at the request of the judge or chairman of the court."
Resolution agreed to.
Legal Aid And Solicitors (Scotland) Money
Resolution reported:
"That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make legal aid and advice in Scotland more readily available for persons of small or moderate means, and to enable the cost of legal aid or advice for such persons to be defrayed wholly or partly out of moneys provided by Parliament; to establish a Law Society of Scotland; and for purposes connected therewith, it is expedient to authorise—A. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the net sums required to meet payments out of any fund set up under the Act in connection with the provision of legal aid and legal advice if (subject to any discretion of the Secretary of State to modify the Act by regulations thereunder to meet special cases)— (a) legal aid under the Act— (i) is not made available (except in the preliminary stages in criminal proceedings) for persons whose disposable income as determined under the Act exceeds four hundred and twenty pounds a year; and (ii) may be refused (except as aforesaid) to a person if he has a disposable capital as so determined of more than five hundred pounds and it appears he can afford to proceed without legal aid: and (b) a person given legal aid under the Act may be required to contribute to the fund up to a maximum equal to one-half the amount by which his disposable income as so determined exceeds one hundred and fifty-six pounds a year together with the full amount by which his disposable capital as so determined exceeds seventy-five pounds (subject, however, to repayment of any excess of the contribution over the net liability of the fund on his account); B. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in the expenses of the National Assistance Board attributable to any provision of the Act relating to the determination of a person's disposable income or capital or to a person's contribution to any such fund as aforesaid."—[Mr. Woodburn.]
Resolution agreed to.
Royton Cottage Hospital (Transfer)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Collindridge.]
7.45 p.m.
I want to raise a subject which is causing much concern, the taking over by the State, under the National Health Service Act, of hospitals which have been privately endowed by the generosity of an individual person. A man after a life of hard work has left his savings to found and to endow a hospital for the lasting benefit of the people of his home town. It would be difficult to imagine a better way to benefit the community than that which I have mentioned. Such a man was Dr. Kershaw of Royton. He died in 1909, and after leaving certain personal bequests in his will, he left the residue of his estate to his trustees to be applied to the founding, establishment, maintenance of a General Hospital or Infirmary in the township of Royton, on land owned by him. Such a hospital was to be free and open to all applicants.
The war of 1914–18 intervened, and the difficult years which followed it prevented the building of that hospital until towards the end of the 1920's. It was however built and ready for opening by 1930. Approval was given by the Charity Commissioners to the scheme, according to the terms of Dr. Kershaw's will. It cost £20,000 to build. After that sum had been spent, there was still an endowment fund of not less than £67,000, which now has reached £71,000 because of interest on investments and one or two other legacies which have come in. I want to emphasise that not a penny has been given otherwise by the people of the town or has been collected through the rates or in any other way. There has never been a flag day. The endowment fund was sufficient to last for all time and to fulfil all the purposes of this hospital. The hospital is a self-contained unit of 19 beds, where patients can receive the best treatment under the best circumstances, at as low a cost as 5s. a week in some cases. A weekly payment of 10s. has been quite usual. Many people have come from surrounding districts as well as from Royton, and the proportion of these had been in the region of four to two. The control and management of the hospital was vested by the Charity Commissioners in a committee of nine, five of whom were to be members of the Urban District Council. The remaining four, two of whom were to be women, were people interested in hospitals generally. It was a thoroughly representative committee. The Charity Commissioners were careful to add that a minister of religion or a person professing Socialist opinions was not eligible to be a member of the committee. That provision was in strict compliance with the terms of Dr. Kershaw's will, in which he laid down that no Socialist or person known to hold or profess Socialist opinions should be at any time a trustee, director or manager of the said hospital. That was in 1909. He was a man wise in his generation, indeed a man who was wise ahead of his generation. Even at that time he could foresee the dangers inherent in a system of Socialism, and great credit is due to him for his foresight. I must add that he also pressed the view that clergymen and ministers of religion should not be trustees of or in other ways connected with the hospital. The committee fully thought that the hospital would be disclaimed under Clause 6 (3) of the National Health Service Act. Not for one moment did they think it would be otherwise. They were therefore surprised to receive a letter dated 24th September, 1947, from the Minister in which it was stated that the Minister was of opinion that the hospital was transferable to him, and if the committee knew of any circumstances why it should not be, they should take an early opportunity of putting forward their reasons. They therefore applied to be disclaimed under the Clause by letter dated 7th November, 1947. Four months passed without an answer. The Committee naturally wondered what the position was, but they heard nothing until 11th March, 1948, when there came a letter stating that the Minister had decided not to disclaim the hospital. Meanwhile, on 3rd March a notice had appeared in the "Manchester Guardian" giving a long list entitled:The name of the hospital did not appear in that list, only eight days before the Minister's letter, and I should like to know why it was not included in that list which had obviously been inserted by the Minister of Health. Was it due to the fact that the whole question was still under consideration and that there was some doubt about it? Combined with the fact that there was such a long delay in replying, it suggests some difference of opinion. Perhaps also the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to tell us why the hospital was not disclaimed. I understand that 16 in the Manchester area alone were disclaimed and that a considerable number were throughout the country. I should have thought that this hospital would have been the one to be disclaimed if ever there was one. It has always been the aim of the courts and of Parliament to respect the wishes of a testator. The courts indeed have gone to considerable lengths to construe the wishes of a testator in the way which they thought would be his desire. We have always been proud of our care to honour a last will and testament in this way. There is no precedent in history for the Government's treatment of charitable trusts which is shown in this Act. All this was forcibly brought out during the Committee stage of the Bill on 23rd May, 1946, and other days by my hon. Friends. We shall live to regret this direct contravention of the wishes of so many men who have endowed hospitals in this way. Clause 6 (4) states that all property should vest in the Minister free of any existing trust. However, the paragraph goes on:"Hospitals Under Health Service. Groupings in the Manchester Region."
The words "so far as practicable" leave a loophole which enables the Minister if he wishes to ignore altogether the objects for which the endowments were made. Considerable effort was made in the Standing Committee to bind the Minister as regards trusts taken over and to insert something much more definite than the words "so far as practicable," but all was unavailing. The Minister of Health refused to take the slightest notice of our appeals and by so doing he has undermined all charitable bequests because he is able to wriggle out of everything as a result of the words "so far as practicable. "How different is the Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1948——"The Minister may use any such property for the purpose of any of his functions under this Act, but shall so far as practicable secure that the objects for which any such property was used immediately before the appointed day are not prejudiced by the provisions of this section."
The hon. Member is going into a field of argument to which I cannot possibly reply because it would mean that I should have to discuss amendment of the law.
The hon. Gentleman is wrong. The hon. Member for Royton (Mr. Sutcliffe) was saying that the Minister had a power to disclaim which he had not exercised.
With respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I gathered that he was saying that another Act was so drafted as to give the kind of thing he wanted, whereas the National Health Service Act was not so drafted. I fail to see the point of the argument unless it was that the Act should be drafted differently.
No, the hon. Member was still complaining of the non-exercise by the Minister of his power to disclaim. He has not yet got to his argument on the National Health Service Act.
I was about to say that the Education Act, which refers to another Department and is no concern of the Minister who is present, lays down a different proposition altogether, because by that Act the Minister has power by Order in Council to take over the endowments of any educational or semi-educational property which has been vested in the charity commissioners, but in every case their assent is needed when the endowment has been in existence less than 50 years. I was merely saying how much better it would have been if that provision could have been inserted in the National Health Service Act.
I ask the Parliamentary Secretary, and through him, the Minister, to reconsider the position of these hospitals. The Act is already on the Statute Book and presumably the only way in which it can be altered is by way of regulation. Appeals were made to the Minister during the Committee stage to do this, and he still has an opportunity if only he will do it. I make that appeal to him now. Finally, I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary what is the future of this little hospital, which is so fully equipped to deal with every kind of case. It has a fine operating theatre which is still ready for full use. I am told that now only half a dozen patients are in it, whereas, previous to this Act coming into force, the beds were nearly always full and there was often a waiting list. I am told that people needing operations are being sent elsewhere because no longer are they using the operating theatre at that hospital. There is, indeed, a suspicion that it will become merely a home for infirm or elderly people. I sincerely hope that will not be the case. I hope that a similar fate does not await this hospital which befell the Yorkshire Home for Incurables at Harrogate where they had 70 beds and an endowment fund of £100,000 raised by public subscriptions, donations and legacies. Strong protests were made by the committee of that hospital, but they were finally cajoled into giving consent to come in under the scheme by the threat that they would find it difficult to get nurses if they remained outside. Well, they went into the scheme, but instead of that hospital being continued as a hospital, it is used now as the finance department of the local hospital board, and instead of people being admitted from the long waiting list, there is a host of clerks there and the whole building has become offices. I think that must be one of the greatest hoaxes which have been perpetrated upon the committee of any hospital, and I hope that such a fate does not await the hospital to which I am drawing attention tonight. It is action of this kind which makes people apprehensive of the future. Already, by taking over its endowments without any consultation with the committee or anyone in the town, the local character of this hospital has been to some extent destroyed. Feeling has been running high, I can tell the Parliamentary Secretary, ever since it was known that it was to be taken over, because this town is proud of the work which the hospital has done for its people and for those in the neighbourhood. Unless the hospital is allowed to play its full part, it is no exaggeration to say that it will be a scandalous betrayal of the wishes of the testator. Indeed, it will be detrimental both to the town itself and to the surrounding neighbourhood. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to give an assurance on this point or, at any rate, if he cannot go any further, say that the hospital will continue to be used to its full capacity as a hospital for the purpose for which it was endowed.8.5 p.m.
I have listened with great interest to the plea for Dr. Kershaw's Cottage Hospital at Royton which has been so well made by my hon. Friend the Member for Royton (Mr. Sutcliffe). He can speak with first-hand knowledge of the conditions of the hospital and for the people of Royton in a way which I could never hope to do. However, I should like to put the matter to the Parliamentary Secretary from the point of view of the family of the late Dr. Kershaw.
There is one son surviving, Mr. Raymond Kershaw, who is a constituent of mine, a man whom I have known personally for a good many years, and he is, I believe, a man of integrity whose views should be respected. After the decision of the Minister was announced, he came to me and brought to me a copy of his father's will, which he asked me to read carefully. Of course, I did so, and then he told me something of the surroundings when the will was made. He pointed out at the time that he and the rest of the family were grown up, they were standing on their own feet, and when their father said that he wished to leave the money to endow this cottage hospital, they said that they were all in perfect agreement that they should give up their inheritance in order that Royton might have this cottage hospital. With that in mind, it is no small wonder that the surviving members of the family still take a keen interest in the hospital. He told me that they were all, and still are, in agreement with the views of their father when he laid down that no person known to hold or express Socialist opinions should at any time be a trustee, director or manager of the hospital. The matter was discussed with them by their father before he died, and they believed that he was right, and I and many of us on this side of the House will think that he was wise well before his time in foreseeing that that would give bad administration, and therefore trying to do all he could to avoid it. Indeed, the behaviour of the Ministry of Health on this matter seems to reinforce what has happened, and the very fact that the first time the hospital desires to take up so important a matter with the Ministry, it takes them four months to reply to a letter, seems to me to be strong evidence of bad administration of the type that Dr. Kershaw wished to avoid. Be that as it may, he left the money, and the family gave up what they believed was to have been their inheritance, for the public good upon certain conditions. Above all, the father and the family wanted to see his hospital with good administration and run on grounds so that there should be no racial, religious or political discrimination, and they felt in their hearts that by not having Socialist administration they could get what they wanted. So far as I know there have been no complaints about the running of the Royton Cottage Hospital. The people connected with it in the past have done their job well. The people of Royton who have passed through the Hospital are well satisfied with it, and the members of the family have been proud of its administration over the past years. Therefore they were very distressed when it was to be taken over under the new scheme, and Mr. Raymond Kershaw wrote to me:I urge the Parliamentary Secretary to consider this matter. It is not in any way a matter of legislation but simply one of a small hospital which is a borderline case and one in which the Minister could quite well have exercised his discretion to leave it under its previous system of operation. I submit that it is not too late, that without the loss of any face and with goodwill, the Minister could reverse his decision in a case where feelings are high. After all, it has been said that the Socialists these days are greedy for power. Here is an opportunity to show that there is no such greed, and to carry out the wishes of a dead man and the present day family who gave up their money for this purpose. If the Minister cannot do that, can he at least say that, so far as is practicable, he will try to carry out the wishes of the testator, and have the hospital administered by a board of governors of the type which the testator wished to administer it? The Minister has the opportunity to do the right thing tonight will he do it?"Is it to be the law of this country that the wishes laid down in my father's will, the terms on which he left money for the public weal, should be cut out, be ignored altogether?"
8.10 p.m.
I am grateful to the two hon. Gentlemen who have spoken for the way in which they have put this case and I will try to deal with them in a similar manner. It is true that the hospital service of this country has been built up largely by private benefaction. There is no doubt that we owe to the kindly thoughts of people in the past many of the institutions of which we are now proud. I put it to the hon. Gentlemen that that was well known at the time of the passing of the Act, that everyone knew that we would be taking over large numbers of voluntary hospitals and that it was necessary in the Act to provide for how they should be transferred and for what was to happen to their endowments. Section 6 of the Act deals quite clearly with what is to happen about transfers and Section 7 deals equally clearly, I think, with what is to happen to endowments.
It is obvious that the late Dr. Kershaw was a very public-spirited man. Indeed, he seems to have been a man of considerable parts. I noticed that his views about Socialists met with the approval of both hon. Gentlemen. I was not clear from what they had said, however, whether this late doctor's views on ministers of religion met with their approval also. It is very difficult to argue as though we knew what would be the views of Dr. Kershaw were he alive now. Reference has been made to his son and to his will but in this respect this particular hospital is no different from hundreds of other privately endowed voluntary hospitals which existed and were taken over on the appointed day. The hospital was administered under a scheme for which the Charity Commissioners were responsible. The Charity Commissioners did not in any way oppose the transfer, and I do not think that the hon. Member for Royton (Mr. Sutcliffe) suggested that we had not acted within the law. Had there been any suggestion to that effect the Minister could have taken the matter to arbitration under the regulations which he made.May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary a question before he leaves that point? 1 think that my hon. Friend the Member for Royton (Mr. Sutcliffe) made clear our feeling that this hospital is in a different position from the others which have been taken over because, although the others initially may have been endowed by one person, in general they have been maintained by public subscription. I think it fair to say that this hospital is the result of the money of one man, and one man alone, and that appeals for support have not been made to the general public.
That may be perfectly true, but the hon. Gentleman is wrong if he supposes that this is the only hospital to which such a statement applies. There are other hospitals of precisely the same kind. In any event, if we are talking about a matter of principle it does not really matter whether there was only one person or whether there were many more. Quite a number of voluntary hospitals which we took over on the appointed day come essentially into this category.
Under the Act the Minister had to answer the question: Do we need the hospital for the new service? It was said that the committee thought that the hospital would be disclaimed, and the hon. Member for Royton (Mr. Sutcliffe) rather took us to task because it took four months to decide what should be done. What, in fact, happened, was this. We did not take each request as it was received. We took all the requests and had to wait until we had the advantage of consulting the regional hospital boards which we had set up. That was a reasonable thing to do. It was no use taking the cases piecemeal. We had to have some idea of the general principles upon which we would work and we wanted the benefit of the opinion of those who were to be the Minister's agents in running the new service. On the face of things, it appeared that this hospital ought to be transferred because it was needed in the new service. We did, however, seek the opinion of the regional hospital board, who expressed the same view. It is true that 16 hospitals in the Manchester region were disclaimed, but not one of them can be said to be comparable to the particular hospital about which we are talking tonight. They were hospitals either run by religious bodies or, quite frankly, ones which we did not want. In fact, only by some queer twist could some of them have been called hospitals at all. It was really a question of need. I admit to some difficulty in arguing with the hon. Gentlemen because, supposing we had said that we did not need the hospital, by whom would it have been needed? If it is said that it was needed by the people of Royton, which I imagine to be the argument, then the Minister of Health, through all the agencies established under the Act, is responsible for providing the health services in Royton. It seems to us therefore, that if we had, as we had here, a cottage hospital well equipped, it was essentially part of the provision which had to be made in that place. It is true that the "Manchester Guardian" on 3rd March published a list of hospitals with their groupings, but I think it was erroneously understood that if this hospital was not in the list it would be disclaimed. I have already explained that we were holding all the applications for disclaimer until we could look at the position as a whole and ascertain the local views. As we approved the lists the groupings went back to the regional board. Doubtless it was the regional board who gave the list to the "Manchester Guardian." It would have been silly for us to put into our grouping list cases which we were then considering and in which we had not decided whether or not to disclaim.In those circumstances would it not have been much wiser to wait until all the answers had been received and considered before publishing an official list?
We did not publish an official list. Neither could we have waited when there were only a dozen or so cases of application for disclaimer. We could not have waited for the grouping of the hospitals, because the regional board had the task of setting up the hospital management committees for each group. It was quite impracticable for us to hold up everything pending a decision on disclaimer in these cases.
Therefore, the view which 1 am bound to take is that this hospital is not in any fundamentally different position from large numbers—indeed, hundreds—of voluntary hospitals up and down the country, and that the Minister's duty was perfectly plain. He had to decide, under the Section, whether we needed the hospital or not. I hope I have made it plain that we could not come to the conclusion that this modern cottage hospital was not necessary for a proper service in Royton and district.I understand that the Minister wants to use this cottage hospital as a cottage hospital. If that is so, for how long does he intend so to use it; or is it the intention ultimately to make it merely an emergency hospital and to transfer the more permanent patients to a larger and new institution?
That point has been put forward already and I was coming to it in due course.
If the arguments advanced by the hon. Gentlemen are really sound, it would follow that we should have had to disclaim, I believe, the overwhelming majority of our voluntary hospitals. 1 do not think there is any reason to suppose that the hospital will serve the neighbourhood less efficiently as a unit within the new service than if it were left on its own. I think that the opposite will be the case and that this hospital as part of the National Health Service is likely to become of greater service to the people of Royton than if it remained as a solitary, isolated institution. There is a lot of public misunderstanding but when hospitals become part of the National Health Service they do not cease to be the property of those they are serving. I beg the hon. Member to go back and assure the people of Royton that this is their hospital and that it is just as essential as ever it was that they should take an interest in it. Otherwise, it will not be the success we want it to be. I think the general intentions of the late Dr. Kershaw will be maintained. The regional board and the new management committee, as agents of the Minister, are under an obligation to have regard to the past purposes of the hospital in determining its future use. In practice it means that the hospital management committee, or the regional board, are not entitled to divert it to other uses, unless it is absolutely clear beyond any kind of doubt that the services needed by the neighbourhood are able to be provided in other ways. One cannot speculate about the distant future, but one can say that the hospital will be used as a cottage hospital, as in the past. If the intention of the late Dr. Kershaw was that there should be no racial, religious, or political discrimination, certainly that intention will be fulfilled for there is no likelihood that there will be discrimination of that kind in one of the hospitals for which the regional board are responsible to the Minister who is responsible in turn to this House. Whether that particular control would accord entirely with the late doctor's wishes, I would not begin to speculate, but I feel that the kind of institution which the late Dr. Kershaw wanted will be kept on under the present administration. I think it better for the hospital to be part of the big national service, with all the link-ups which that means, and with the specialised services and so on, than for it to be quite independent. I have every reason to suppose that the hospital will be fully used although it may, as in the past, serve an area somewhat wider than the township of Royton. I ask the hon. Members who have raised this matter to believe that we have acted in what we believe to be the best interests of the people of Royton. We have quite faithfully exercised the powers given us by the Act. I hope that any misunderstanding or any disquiet there might be will be allayed by the explanation I have given and that the people of Royton, recognising that this will still be their hospital, will do their best for it.Will the hon. Gentleman answer the point I made? Will he say that there is no intention at all of changing the function of the hospital and no scheme afoot to turn it into a casualty clearing station?
I am sorry, I had no intention of evading the point. I have made it clear that, without speculating about the long-distant future, it is the present intention to use the hospital as in the past as a cottage hospital.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty - five Minutes past Eight o'Clock.