asked the Minister of Health to what extent medical X-ray apparatus built in this country is dependent on the U.S. for deep therapy tubes and valves; and whether steps are being taken to increase capacity for their manufacture in the United Kingdom.

Production of deep therapy tubes and valves is being developed by manufacturers but for the present we are almost entirely dependent upon imports.

Is the Minister aware that this dependence upon foreign countries for deep therapy tubes is a serious matter and a weakness for our own industry; and is he prepared to consider whether some form of loan might be given to enable more intensive research work to be carried out?

I do not know that loans will help the position at all. This is highly technical and skilled work and is being developed. I have met some of the manufacturers.

asked the Minister of Health under what conditions patients in mental hospitals are employed on outside work; what steps are taken to see that any such work is conducive to their rehabilitation and that they are not given alcohol when so employed; and whether the agreement of their next-of-kin is obtained.

The conditions are determined by the Medical Superintendent, who decides what is suitable for the patients concerned, and whether they may properly have any alcoholic refreshment. The agreement of the next-of-kin is not obtained, nor is it necessary.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask him, so far as the kind of work is concerned, whether he will discourage any repetition of the practice by which until recently mental patients were employed as beaters by the Mid-Essex Coursing Club and caused considerable distress among their fellow patients by their unpleasant descriptions of the sufferings of the hare?

I should have thought myself that if outside activity of this kind is agreeable and good for patients it ought to be undertaken by the institution as part of the healing treatment of the patients and not, incidentally, for somebody else's benefit.

Is it not obvious that some patients from mental hospitals have escaped and are now members of His Majesty's Government?

asked the Minister of Health why no charge is made for medicine bottles supplied under the National Health Service; what is being done to maintain an adequate supply; and what action is being taken to prevent wastage of bottles.

These matters are under consideration.

Can my right hon. Friend give an estimate of the number of bottles which have been issued and the very small percentage returned in the same condition?

I could not give that estimate. I think it would require an enormous amount of clerical work to collect it and I should imagine that the amount of work involved in getting the information would exceed the expenditure on the bottles.

Is there any indication of when these considerations will result in some action from my right hon. Friend's Department?

After all, the Health Service has only been in operation for six months and it is necessary to collect information so that we can take action which is intelligent action. It will not be very long.

It is a very simple matter.

Oh!

Could the Minister give a projected average per month of these medicine bottles?

No, I cannot.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that citizens of Newport have to wait for eyeglasses as long as 17 weeks in some cases; and whether he will accelerate delivery.

I am aware that there are difficulties generally. All practicable steps are being taken to arrange for increased production.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the position is improving or getting worse?

The position is improving, certainly. A very large number of persons have had spectacles who formerly would not have had them.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that although delay is not so long in all areas as it apparently is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Newport (Mr. Peter Freeman), some difficulty arises from the fact that there is no arrangement for assessing the relative urgency of applications and working out a priority scheme for urgent cases?

Discussions have already taken place with ophthalmic opticians to try to obtain priority for urgent cases.

Will my right hon. Friend say how many years the citizens of Great Britain waited for spectacles before the scheme was introduced?

It is very evident that there must have been a very large number of people in almost all classes of the community who did not have glasses before 5th July.

Since they have had to wait so long, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the glasses are of sufficient magnifying power for them to see their meat ration?

It is also one of the incidental disabilities of the service that they will be able to read the nonsense of the Conservative Party.

Is it impossible for those who want spectacles different from standard to obtain them by payment of an extra sum?

No. It is possible for persons who desire to have frames which are superior to those issued under the National Health Service to make a payment, but we have protected the citizen by negotiating with the concerns as to what the overall payment shall be. Where glasses are ordered of a different kind and are necessary for clinical reasons, they can be obtained free.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say how long it will be before children can be issued with splinterless glasses which they had prior to the Act?

I am sure parents would not wish to restore children to the situation in which they were before the Health Service, but the question of splinterless glass, where medically necessary, for example in epileptic cases, is being urgently considered.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that, although in accordance with the advice contained in his departmental letter NW/935/717A/2/2 dated 2nd November, 1948, application was duly made by the Buxton Corporation both to his Department and to the Regional Planning Officer for authority to rehouse on the Lad Manlow site the squatters in the Empire Hotel, no answer has been received from either Department; and what action he proposes to take.

I regret the delay in dealing with this difficult case and I am taking steps to clear it up as quickly as possible.

asked the Minister of Health when he expects to receive revised housing lists from local authorities; and if he will publish in the next Local Authority Housing Returns the appropriate figures.

I have asked for returns by 31st March. After the figures have been examined I will consider the question of publication.

Will the Minister also consider the cases of people who, because of a variation between the points schemes of the various authorities, are not on the housing list of any authority?

I am afraid that as this is a screening of the lists of the various authorities it would be awfully difficult to consider people who are not on the lists, because they would be an unknown quantity.

asked the Minister of Health the reasons for the decline recently in permanent house building; and what is the average projected figure per month for the ensuing year.

The number of new permanent houses completed in the 12 months ended 30th November, 1948, was 205,274 as compared with 121,082 for the 12 months ended 30th November, 1947, and the fluctuations month by month have been no more than was to be expected in a programme of this magnitude. The programme has now reached a stage where it can be judged on its achievements better than on forecasts.

What is the average projected figure for a month for the ensuing year, which is asked for in the second part of my Question, to which the Minister has not replied?

I cannot give the average for the ensuing year until the year is complete, because the average would be the number at the end of the year, divided by 12.

The projected average?

I cannot give the projected average, because it would depend on the actual achievement.

May we take it that the figures given by the Minister refer to new houses and would not reflect the decline in private enterprise housing?

The figure refers to new houses alone and not any other form of accommodation. In regard to the second part of the supplementary question, that has been answered so frequently that I should have thought hon. Members opposite were tired of the answer.

Will my right hon. Friend also make it clear that these permanent houses are substantially larger than those built before the war, but, in view of the fact that the United Kingdom interim plan submitted to the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation provides an overall expenditure on new house building of 1,000 million dollars for the year 1949–50, will he say if he anticipates that this will involve an increase or a decrease?

I have not the figures to which my hon. Friend refers in my mind at the moment, but obviously expenditure upon one form of social service competes with expenditure upon another part of the social service so long as the global figure remains the same. If we tie ourselves, as I think we must, to the relationship between the total expenditure on social services and the whole capital expenditure of the country, we must then decide how we are to dispose that expenditure over the whole social service claims.

In view of the fact that only last year the Minister of Health projected a figure of 300,000 houses for 1948, why is it impossible to project a figure for 1949?

I have no recollection of a projected figure of 300,000 for 1948 and where the hon. Gentleman gets that I do not know.

Can the Minister explain why there is such good progress in England, but not in Scotland? Is it due to the fact that labour and materials should be diverted to Scotland?

It would be no more an easy task to divert labour from England to Scotland than from Scotland to England and I believe the rate of completion in Scotland is now very satisfactory indeed.

Oh, no.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will consult with local authorities with a view to accelerating the provision of houses for police officers.

Consultations with local authorities already take place as and when occasion arises. Provision is also made in the housing programme for the building of certain numbers of houses by police authorities.

Will my right hon. Friend regard as one of the effects which must arise today the critical position in regard to crime figures and the difficulty in police recruiting?

I am always in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on these matters, and more than 1,000 houses have already been included in the local authority housing programme for police officers and more are in contemplation.

Has the right hon. Gentleman given any orders, or directions, to local authorities to give priority to married policemen who have no houses in which to live?

I issued a circular on 9th October, 1945, in consultation with the Home Office asking local authorities to take these matters into consideration, but I cannot ask that an overriding priority should be given to an able-bodied police officer as against a consumptive civilian.

Are these houses intended for police officers in addition to the allocation made to local authorities at the zonal conference? If not, would the right hon. Gentleman agree that they should be additional?

They are not in addition, they are part of the general housing programme, as indeed they must be, because a police officer who goes into a house releases a house for someone else. I cannot add to the housing programme until Parliament adds to the physical resources of the country.

asked the Minister of Health if he will make a census of Britain's houses on the lines of the 1931 Census, to give a clear picture of the nature and conditions of the nation's dwellings.

One of the objects of the next Census will be to obtain additional data concerning the housing of the people.

If the Minister knew more about his job, would he not be aware that his present policy is preventing building of the maximum number of houses and that if he only restored free enterprise to builders of £1,300 houses he would get double the number of houses built?

It would of course be possible, by permitting people to build houses where they liked, to build more houses for some people who could afford to pay, at the expense of those who could not.

That is most unfair. I said £1,300 houses.

asked the Minister of Education what progress has now been made with the claim for the extension of London area scales of teachers' salaries to teachers in Kingston, Surbiton and district.

I have received a letter making the claim to which the hon. Member refers and I have replied that the matter received full consideration recently by the Burnham Committee, and I see no sufficient grounds for asking that Committee to consider it afresh.

Is it a fact that the Burnham Committee was unable to come to any definite decision one way or another? Is it not also a fact that this matter has been under discussion for 11 years now, and that the right hon. Gentleman's Department is still under the pathetic illusion that the cost-of-living in Kingston is less than in Richmond, Wimbledon and Twickenham? Is it not time to come up to date?

It has been under discussion not for 11 years but, to my knowledge, 20 years. All the time this difficulty of differentiating in the area has been apparent. What was discussed on the last occasion by the Burnham Committee was the Local Government Boundary Commission Report, and it was decided that they would consider this matter afresh when the Report of the Boundary Commission had been implemented.

Will the Minister give an undertaking that as soon as that Report is available the matter will be reconsidered afresh and not left for another 20 years?

I did not say available, I said implemented.

asked the Minister of Education what assistance from public funds is given to the National Association of Girls Clubs and Mixed Clubs; and if he is satisfied that this is a non-political body.

The National Association of Girls Clubs and Mixed Clubs receives direct grant from my Department under the Social and Physical Training Grant Regulations. The amount of this grant for the current year is £20,500. The answer to the second part of the Question is in the affirmative.

While this organisation is doing much good work, may I ask whether the Minister's attention has been drawn to the arrangements for its Christmas Cracker Bazaar at the Mayfair Hotel which was opened by Mrs. Winston Churchill, and where the variety bazaar was presided over by Lady Woolton and Mrs. Walter Elliot?—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—In, view of the lack of variety in these arrangements does the Minister consider that it was due to the political bias or the political innocence of its organisers?

No, I do not think that there was any political bias. As a matter of fact, if my hon. Friend had gone back to the previous year he would have found that the wife of the Prime Minister presided and the Lord Chancellor opened the bazaar.

Withdraw.

In order to show that there is no bias, will the Minister arrange for the next Christmas bazaar to be opened by Mrs. Harry Pollitt?

I would point out that the Minister has no jurisdiction in this matter, and we do not determine grants according to the names of the people who open the bazaar.

asked the Minister of Education whether he has a target for the provision of nursery schools and nursery classes for children aged two and under five; what is the estimate for the number to be accommodated during 1949; and how does this compare with the numbers accommodated during 1948 and 1947.

In drawing up their development plans authorities generally have assumed that, at any rate in urban areas, up to 50 per cent. of the children between two and five may wish to attend nursery schools or classes. I do not expect a substantial increase in the number of children in nursery schools and classes in 1949, although there are plans to provide some more schools in industrial areas.

Cannot the Minister give a precise answer showing how many he expects in view of the fact that only about 6 per cent. of the children of these ages are being catered for in these nursery classes and schools? If more women had facilities for their children it might help industrial activity.

I cannot give an estimate of the number that will be provided for but arrangements have been made that, where in industrial areas they can be of economic benefit to the country, plans for nursery schools shall go through.

Is not the Minister aware that it would be much better that, where possible, children of this early age should remain at home and be looked after by their mothers?

asked the Minister of Education what is the latest date at which he has information concerning the implementation by local education authorities themselves of Circular 97 on the provision of outside assistance in the school meals service.

1st July, 1946, was the date of the last return which I asked all local education authorities to send me about the employment of midday assistants in the school meals service.

If July, 1946, is the latest date of the Minister's information how was he able, on 2nd December last year, to answer a Question of mine to the effect that he was satisfied that the authorities were taking steps to implement that circular?

Because the representatives of the teachers and of the local authorities have been informed again and again of this circular, and any request or complaint made by local authorities is inquired into at once. Only one such complaint has been made and action is now being taken on that.

What action does my right hon. Friend's Ministry take in regard to those authorities which are not implementing Circular 97?

They are instructed that it is their duty to do so.

asked the Minister of Education what progress is being made in the consideration of the scale of salaries for school dental officers to avoid the disparity of pay that exists between the school dental officer and the dental practitioner working under the Ministry of Health, which results in wholesale retirements of dentists from the school service; and what effect this will have on the salaries structure of local authorities.

The local authority associations have asked for a meeting with representatives of the Government on this and related questions and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health and I are seeing them shortly.

I hope that the Minister realises that the National Health Service does not provide any alternative to this essential service, and that he will take into consideration the essential need to reach some agreement before the present service is completely wrecked?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations why the United Kingdom High Commissioner for India has sent circulars to a number of British subjects of European origin asking them whether they wish to be included in a record of potential citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies; and whether this action was taken on his instructions.

In view of the coming into force of the British Nationality Act on 1st January it is the duty of the United Kingdom High Commissioners in India and Pakistan to register those persons whose acquisition of United Kingdom citizenship will depend on registration under Sections 6, 7 and 12 (6) of the Act. It will, moreover, be desirable, for such reasons as the issue and renewal of United Kingdom passports, to have on record as full a list as possible of all United Kingdom citizens in those Dominions, even if their citizenship is not dependent on registration. For these reasons, I instructed the High Commissioners to take steps to bring the provisions of the Act to the notice of British subjects of European origin and to invite them to submit evidence of their qualifications for United Kingdom citizenship.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that whatever the reasons for this action, the intimation to people who have always regarded themselves as citizens of this country that they are now to apply to be regarded as potential citizens has come as something of a shock? Will the right hon. Gentleman instruct the High Commissioners to present the matter to these people in a somewhat more helpful and lucid manner?

I greatly regret the shock, if there has been one. The phrase is a technical one arising out of the Act. I hope that my answer will serve the purpose which the hon. Gentleman has in view. I will also see if there is anything more that I can do.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether, in view of the fact that the Republic of Ireland Bill has now been passed into law, he has called the attention of the Government of Eire to the contractual obligations involved in the Treaty of December, 1921, and expressly reserved by the judgment of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council delivered on the 6th June, 1935; and whether he will make a statement.

No, Sir. I think there would be no advantage in taking the course which the hon. Member suggests.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on all previous occasions when an amendment of the Agreement of 1921 was passed it was bilateral, as it was accepted by Acts of Parliament passed by this House, whereas now there is a complete repudiation of the 1921 Treaty, without His Majesty's Government even being informed, as the Lord Chancellor told us in another place?

I am not sure that I followed all the implications of what the hon. Member said, but I think I could accept very few of them.

Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the statement by the ex-Attorney-General in this House to the effect that the Statute of Westminster has no effect on this Treaty?

There was also a decision of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in 1935 which the hon. Member for Queen's University of Belfast (Professor Savory) has quoted many times in this House, which said something rather different.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the estimated quantity of pig and poultry appliances to be exported to Eire during 1949; and what revenue he estimates will result.

I regret that information on which to base such an estimate is not available.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take steps to ensure a more adequate distribution of matches to smaller towns and boroughs for residents in the rural areas; and whether, in view of the large stocks held by a well-known British manufacturer in Gloucester, he will afford greater facilities for home allocation and distribution throughout Worcestershire and the Midlands.

My Department, through the Matches Control, maintains a close watch on the distribution of matches, and in the light of reports by its travelling inspectors the Control is constantly adjusting supplies so as to ensure that each area gets its fair share, and that overall stocks are not unduly heavy. I am making inquiries into the specific complaint of scarcity in the areas referred to by the hon. Member and will write to him as soon as they are completed.

Is this not a matchless Government? It pays lip service to the wants of the people, but never does anything really practical to assist those in the rural areas.

If the hon. Gentleman wishes me to increase the Government controls on the match industry I am prepared to consider any representations he might wish to make.

I do not want any more controls; I want common sense.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take steps to increase the supply of X-ray film available to hospitals, in view of the increased demand coupled with decreased supplies for home consumption.

Supplies of X-ray film to the home market have been increasing, but not enough to meet the increased demand since the war, and especially in the last six months. Manufacturers have been doing all that they can to increase production, and after consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, I am asking them to supply a larger proportion of their output to the home market. There is, however, a shortage of X-ray film, not only here but throughout the world, and my right hon. Friend and I would make an urgent appeal to doctors, hospitals and all others who use it to exercise the utmost economy.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask him if he would bear in mind that hospitals are facing a most serious situation in this respect, and that the Middlesex Hospital, in which I am particularly interested, is now working on one week's supply, whereas a year ago it had a three months' stock, and that is a serious position?

Yes, Sir, but since a year ago the consumption of this material has increased by over 30 per cent.

Yes, but not to that extent.

Is it not a fact that one of the principal reasons for this shortage, which never occurred before, is the virtual elimination of X-ray engineers and the chaos on the distribution side which has been created by the Government's own action?

No, Sir. The principal reason for the shortage is that in spite of increased production the consumption and use of it has increased so very much.

Would the right hon. Gentleman further admit that the amount of money obtained for this film abroad is far greater than the Ministry of Health in this country is prepared to pay and that that is very largely why there is such a great shortage?

No, Sir. The level of exports, which has continued until recently, was the result of the efforts of the manufacturers to export as much as possible. Now we have asked them to cut down exports to meet the home demand.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has considered a letter and pamphlet from the Liverpool Cotton Association which have been sent to him; and if, in order to accelerate the economic recovery of Britain he will now re-open the Liverpool Cotton Market.

I have considered the letter and pamphlet from the Liverpool Cotton Association, but I am unable to accept the implication that the Liverpool Cotton Market should be re-opened. In this connection I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Bury (Mr. W. Fletcher) on Tuesday last.

In view of the fact that Ministers are appealing for increased exports, especially invisible exports, why close down one of our best export earners? Why not re-open it? And is not this the Communist technique of saying one thing and doing the opposite?

asked the President of the Board of Trade the annual profits made by the Timber Control up to the latest available date.

My hon. Friend will find the latest available information on this subject in the "Trading Accounts and Balance Sheets, 1946–47" (House of Commons Paper No. 34 of 1947–48).

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the profits enjoyed by the Timber Control are, at least, partly responsible for the present high price of timber?

No, Sir.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will give an assurance that horticultural growers will be consulted before any further agreements, relating to the import of Dutch vegetable products, are signed with the Dutch Government.

Every endeavour is made to ensure that our negotiators are fully acquainted with the views of United Kingdom producers and that their position is taken into account within the general framework of the negotiations. It would, however, be quite out of the question for the Government to commit themselves to prior consultation, either with horticultural growers or with other groups of United Kingdom producers, before entering into agreements with other Governments.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, while welcoming this agreement with Holland which shares so many problems with us at this moment, contact with the horticultural growers in England would have enabled certain aspects of this Treaty to be altered to help home producers without preventing an agreement at all?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will realise that in each bilateral trade negotiation there are hundreds, if not thousands, of commodities covered in trade on both sides. I am sure he will understand, from what he has said about the Netherlands, that in any trade negotiations it is essential to take some of the traditional exports of the country with whom we are dealing if we are to expect them to take some of our traditional exports as well.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will now consider postponing the Census of Distribution Plan, to be taken in 1950, owing to the abnormality of business conditions at the present time.

I am sure that it is always possible to find some departure from normal trading conditions in any year, and I would not regard the representations that have been made to me about 1949 as sufficient in themselves to justify any postponement. Nevertheless, during the last two months I have received communications from hon. Members on both sides of the House and from many trade organisations. These communications have shown me that many of those engaged in the distributive trades have not become sufficiently acquainted either with the form that the census will take or with their responsibilities in completing the census forms; this is particularly so in the case of small shopkeepers. Since it is fundamental to the success of the census that traders should fully understand the part they must play, the Government have decided to postpone the Census of Distribution for one year and I shall make the necessary Order as soon as possible. Moreover, many traders have not realised they may, if it is more convenient to them, make a return for their financial year rather than the calendar year 1949.

asked the President of the Board of Trade with regard to the allocation of permits for machinery to be exported to Poland, with which country during the 10 months ended 31st October, 1948, there was a balance of British exports considerably in excess of imports, if he will consider allotting such machinery to our own Colonies, where the balance of trade is reversed, instead, in order to assist the new Colonial Development Schemes now in need of practically all types of machinery.

With very few exceptions the distribution of machinery exports is not subject to control by the Government, and the question of reallocating supplies as suggested does not, therefore, arise.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that the West Indies, for example, send us some £26 million worth of goods a year more than we send them, and that on the other hand, Russia, and her satellites such as Poland, send us £26 million worth of goods less than we send them? Can he give any assurance to the House that the overwhelming requirements of the Colonies are taken into account at the time when these trade negotiations are undertaken?

I cannot accept the figures given by my hon. Friend, but I am well aware that the demand for British capital goods exports is far in excess of our capacity to meet it. I can certainly tell him that not only Colonial needs are borne in mind, but the export of capital equipment to the Commonwealth as a whole, including the Colonies, is very much greater than before the war.

Is my right hon. Friend in consultation with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies at the time when these trade agreements are negotiated with other foreign Governments?

I have the closest degree of consultation with all my right hon. Friends before any bilateral trade negotiation begins.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has instituted inquiries into allegations made in the course of evidence given in the Central Criminal Court on 29th November, 1948, that an official of his Department had had to be paid in connection with a sale of table-cloths and table napkins at a price exceeding the permitted maximum; and what action he has taken as the result of the observations of the Lord Chief Justice.

The police were consulted and the Lord Chief Justice's observations were brought to the notice of the Director of Public Prosecutions. The official against whom the allegations were made ceased to be employed by the Board of Trade in January, 1945, and is now dead.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how much granite and marble, respectively, was imported by the United Kingdom in 1948 and 1949; what is the estimated import for 1949; how many British associations will take part in importing granite during 1949; and what was the total production of granite in England, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall in 1948.

Seven thousand tons of granite, value £53,000, and 15,713 tons of marble, value £404,000, were imported into the United Kingdom in 1948. No figures are yet available for actual imports in 1949 to date. Imports have been permitted only at the request of the foreign countries concerned, and as part of satisfactory trade agreements with them; the hon. Member will not expect me to forecast what may be the outcome of 1949 trade negotiations with the countries concerned, since these are not yet completed. Import licences will be issued to individual importers and there will be no question of importing through particular trade associations. Total estimated production for England, Scotland, and Wales in 1948 was approximately 4,100,000 tons. Of this Cornish production was approximately 32,000 tons.

May I ask the Minister if, before these negotiations were settled the industry was consulted in any way, because this is a hurt so far as Cornwall is concerned with regard to the importation of granite?

I have already made clear to the hon. Gentleman for what a small proportion of the national output Cornwall is responsible. We are well aware of the views of the industry. They have been very vocal in this matter. I hope certain questions about procedure for imports will be looked after in the negotiations which are being concluded.

As a quarry in Cornwall was shut down, will the Minister be so good as to see that consultations take place with the industry to make sure that our granite is used to the fullest extent possible, especially in the making of roads?

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power when the Gas Consumers' Committee for the South-East Region will be appointed; and whether appropriate bodies have been approached in the matter of the personnel for this Committee.

Nominations have been invited from all the appropriate bodies and associations. We have not yet received all their replies and I cannot say precisely when the Council will be appointed.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power how many horses and ponies have been removed from the pits because of old age, infirmity, or other reasons, during 1948; how many of these were humanely destroyed; and how many were sent to homes for rest for horses.

For the year ended 30th June, 1948, the number of horses and ponies cast or humanely destroyed because of disease, old age or infirmity was 1,600. As regards the second part of the Question the information is not available.

What steps, if any, are taken to prevent these ponies being slaughtered for human consumption after leaving the pits?

The Department is only responsible for the collection of information as to those which are killed or cast. I have no information on the point raised by my hon. Friend.

Cannot the hon. Gentleman say how many of these ponies are actually sold to dealers irrespective of what happened to them afterwards? The facts are known in his Department, so he should know.

No. These figures are not supplied to the Department under the Act.

When will modernisation and mechanisation enable us to dispense completely with the use of pit ponies?

I replied to a similar question some time ago. I indicated that the number of pit ponies was steadily decreasing and that, in the course of time, pit ponies would no longer be used.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what use is being made, in building up the new Civil Defence Organisation, of the experience gained by the German Civil Defence Organisation in the late war and of the post-war U.S. experiments.

Full account is being taken of all available information of this kind in the preparation of plans for the organisation of Civil Defence, in the examination of Civil Defence problems and in the making of arrangements for Civil Defence training. Some of this information has been embodied in publications issued by the Home Office of which I am sending copies to my hon. and gallant Friend.

Can my right hon. Friend say if he has also investigated the results of the Allied bombing of Japan in the recent war?

Yes, Sir. My advisers on this subject take very great pains to keep themselves informed of all research wherever it may be conducted.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will give details of the organisation to be administered by the scientific adviser for Civil Defence matters.

In accordance with the recommendations of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, the conduct of research into scientific problems which arise in connection with Civil Defence planning is undertaken by existing research organisations such as those of the Ministry of Supply and the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. It is the responsibility of the Chief Scientific Adviser, working in close association with the Scientific Advisers to the Service Departments and the scientific authorities in other Departments, to define and bring to notice in the appropriate quarter the Civil Defence problems requiring research, and to ensure that all research for Civil Defence is properly co-ordinated. In addition, he himself undertakes, in collaboration with the Departments concerned, research of the kind described by the Advisory Council as operational research. To assist him in his duties the Chief Scientific Adviser has a staff of five scientists.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the present deficiency in numbers of the Metropolitan Police Force; and whether he is satisfied with the recruitment campaign.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the public anxiety caused by the recent increase in the incidence of crimes of violence in London; to what extent this increase is due to the fact that the police are insufficient in numbers to discharge their protective duties adequately; and what steps he is taking to stimulate recruitment to the Metropolitan Police Force.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he is taking to increase the Police Force so that it will be able to deal more effectively with the disquieting incidence of crime.

I am afraid, Sir, the answer is rather longer than is usually the case. According to the latest available figures, the Metropolitan Police are 4,291 and the county and borough police forces outside London 7,420 men short of establishment. During 1948 there was a net increase of 755 men in the regular strength of the Metropolitan Police and of 2,451 in the forces outside London. The need to improve the rate of recruitment in some parts of the country was one of the reasons for the appointment of the Committee under Lord Oaksey's chairmanship which is now considering police conditions of service. As regards the incidence of crimes of violence in London, the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis has recently pointed out that the number of armed robberies reported in the Metropolitan Police district in the first 11 months of 1948 was 43, 15 less than in the corresponding period of 1947, and that the percentage of arrests in respect of all robberies in the Metropolitan Police district was 22.9 per cent. greater in 1948 than in 1947. I am nevertheless fully aware of the public concern at the reports of recent crimes of violence, but I should not feel justified in proposing any substantial changes in police conditions of service, with a view to accelerating recruitment, in advance of the Oaksey Committee's Report.

While I thank the Home Secretary for his full reply, may I ask him how many special constables there are in the Metropolitan Area and how far they relieve the position?

Not without notice.

In view of the great urgency of this matter, does the right hon. Gentleman know when the Oaksey Report is likely to be available?

I had a conversation myself with Lord Oaksey yesterday and he hopes to have the Report in my hands well before Easter.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether men now employed in agriculture or coal mining are free to join the Police Force if they wish, or are there still obstacles in their way?

No. Two or three months ago, perhaps a little longer, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour removed the bar on these men enlisting in the police forces.

Will my right hon. Friend consider the advisability of asking the police authorities to give a little less attention to the more petty forms of traffic offence or to the unnecessary chasing around the streets of barrow boys?

It would put me in a quite wrong position with the police forces if I indicated to them, in the light of their knowledge of the particular area they serve, the kind of crime on which they should concentrate.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that where there are traffic lights there are usually enormous numbers of traffic police trying to trap motorists, and that they are really not doing much good?

I gave a reply recently which stated that over 700 police were saved in the Metropolitan Police Area alone by the use of traffic lights.

Will the right hon. Gentleman ask local authorities to do their best to provide suitable accommodation, especially for married policemen because, as he knows, it goes against recruiting if a married man and his wife cannot find suitable accommodation?

I am very grateful to the hon. and gallant Member for putting that question. I have made many appeals to housing authorities to help me in this matter. I am certain that the biggest bar to the retention of suitable recruits is the difficulty of providing a married man with a house in the neighbourhood of his employment.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider recommending the award of the Imperial Service Medal, in appropriate cases, for those who have completed a total period of meritorious and exemplary service of 25 years either in the Forces or in the Civil Service, or partly in one and partly in the other.

No, Sir. The Statutes of the Imperial Service Order make it clear that the Order and the Medal were founded for the Civil Service. If service in the Armed Forces were to be put on the same basis as service in the Civil Service in reckoning the qualifying period, this would deprive awards of their special character as a Civil Service distinction. War-time service in the Forces, if pensionable under the Superannuation Acts, does, however, count towards the qualifying period of 25 years for the grant of the Medal.

Will the Prime Minister give any indication whether, by reason of the fact that in the past members of the Indian Civil Service were recipients of a percentage of these medals, there is likely to be any difference in the terms of award in future?

I am afraid I could not answer that question without notice.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will now name the members of the Royal Commission on the Death Penalty.

The King has been pleased to approve the setting up of a Royal Commission on Capital Punishment with the following terms of reference:

"To consider and report whether liability under the criminal law in Great Britain to suffer capital punishment for murder should be limited or modified, and if so, to what extent and by what means, for how long and under what conditions persons who would otherwise have been liable to suffer capital punishment should be detained, and what changes in the existing law and the prison system would be required; and to inquire into and take account of the position in those countries whose experience and practice may throw light on these questions."

I am glad to be able to announce that Sir Ernest Gowers will act as chairman of the Royal Commission and I hope to be able to give the names of members of the Commission before very long.

Having regard to the importance of this question and to the pace at which some Royal Commissions move, will the Prime Minister do what is possible to expedite the proceedings of this Commission?

I cannot very well order a Royal Commission to report within so many days. It must be left to them. Perhaps sometimes the importance and difficulty of the question mean that they have to sit for a long time.

May I ask if the use of the words "limited" or "modified" in these terms of reference would preclude the Commission from recommending the total abolition of the penalty.

Yes, Sir. It was thought that it would be much more useful if the Royal Commission inquired into modifications or alternatives, because the straight issue of capital punishment is one on which Parliament in due course will have to take its decision. It is not very suitable to put it before a Royal Commission.

Does the Prime Minister realise that that begs the whole case for abolition which has already been carried by this House on a free vote, and that if a Commission is appointed to express an opinion whether it should be limited or modified, the report of that Commission will be read as a report against abolition; and may I implore the Prime Minister to reconsider these terms of reference and to make it abundantly apparent that the Commission is to have a free vote?

I am quite sure that is not so. I have made it abundantly clear, as I stated, that it is for Parliament to decide on that issue. I am quite sure that if we put up a Royal Commission with terms of reference to consider abolition, we should merely get majority and minority reports, and I think it is much more useful to set up a Commission with these terms of reference.

Can the Prime Minister say how many women will take part?

No, I cannot.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether it will be within the terms of reference of the Royal Commission to consider modification or revision of the McNaghten Rules, in the light of modern knowledge?

I could not say off-hand whether that subject will come up. Broadly speaking, it deals with modifications, but it will be for the Royal Commission to consider in what way it should take that into account.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether it is his intention to arrange for any of the meetings of the new Council for Wales to be held in public; whether the Council will have power to co-opt additional members; and whether the Council will be able to decide when and where it will meet.

As I told the House on the 24th November, the intention is that the Council for Wales and Monmouthshire shall meet in private. It is not proposed that it shall have co-opting powers, but it will, of course, be free to decide when and where it will meet.

May I ask the Lord President whether he would give permission to the Council so that it could decide itself whether it should meet in public or in private, in view of the desire of many people to have the opportunity of speaking in public?

I do not think that is desirable as a general practice. There might conceivably be exceptional occasions when there could be public sittings, but I think that if there were very full discussions we should have the Council in danger of being in a little competition with Welsh Members of Parliament in Parliament assembled.

Will my right hon. Friend consider leaving it to the Council itself to decide if it wishes to meet in public?

No, Sir.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the reasons for the considerable opposition to the proposed Council for Wales, even amongst local authorities, is that it should meet in private, and will he reconsider the point if he wishes the Council to be a success at all?

There are various reasons for such criticisms of the proposal as exist, and a number of these reasons for criticism cancel themselves out, like this one does. Many people are apprehensive about the Council in case it should become, in certain respects, a rival of the House of Commons.

Is the Lord President also aware that, amongst local authorities which expressed approval of this proposal, disapproval was expressed of the provision that it should meet in private?

asked the Minister of Labour why Josef Rokoczy, a qualified dentist, was directed to agricultural work and prosecuted for refusal.

This man came to this country as a European Volunteer Worker, having signed the usual undertaking to accept the work selected for him. He repeatedly refused agricultural work, and, indeed, said that he intended to emigrate to the Argentine and had no intention of doing any work in this country in the meantime. The prosecution which followed was instituted by the police on the ground that he had contravened the conditions on which he had been allowed to land in this country.

Is it not a fact that this man was quite willing to follow his profession, if he was giver a chance to do so? Why was he not given that opportunity?

In the first place, he signed up to come here as a volunteer to take such work as was offered to him; secondly, we have no evidence that he is a dentist; thirdly, he made no application to the authorities to be accepted as a dentist, and we do not know if they will accept him if he does make application; and finally, he has been living in England, sitting in idleness, while school children have been doing agricultural work.

In view of the interest aroused in this case, will not the right hon. Gentleman try him out as a dentist?

Yes, Sir, if the right hon. Gentleman will accept the trial.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the intention of successive Governments of this country to allow refugees to come here after being persecuted abroad, has now been departed from by this Government?

No, Sir. It is not quite right to put that interpretation upon it. We posted notices in displaced persons' camps on the Continent asking if anybody was ready to volunteer to come here to work. Only those who said they were prepared to accept agricultural or such other work as was offered to them were brought here. This man volunteered to come here to work; he did not come here as a refugee.

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this country has for many years had far too many people in idleness, and that we would rather export than import them?

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the imminent conversion of the coal industry into a closed shop, he will relax control of labour and engagements sufficiently to ensure that no individual can be compelled to join a trade union.

The Control of Engagement Order does not operate to compel an individual to join a trade union. The question does not therefore arise.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the President of the National Union of Mineworkers said on 22nd December that the National Coal Board had agreed to a closed shop, and, in the circumstances, will he give an assurance that in no case will any Labour controls be used in such a way as to require a mineworker to join a union against his wishes?

The only thing I can say is that it is not the Government's intention to do anything that will break down agreements entered into between employers and workers.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in an industry in which the trade union representatives are the only people to deal with questions of wages, conditions, pensions, holidays and so forth, any man who is in that industry and accepts all these benefits negotiated by the trade union representatives without being himself a member is in reality very much in the nature of a parasite?