Commons Chamber

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House Of Commons

Monday, 12th December, 1949

The House met at Half past Two o' Clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Private Business

River Great Ouse (Flood Protection) Bill

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Oral Answers To Questions

Ministry Of Supply

Aircraft Contracts

asked the Minister of Supply what contracts have been placed with the Bristol Aeroplane Company on a cost-plus basis either for development work or otherwise; and what is the value of such work divided under the headings of development contracts and supply of civil or military aircraft and components during the years 1947 and 1948.

It would be contrary to established practice to give details of contracts placed with a particular firm.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of any extensive under-employment at this factory and what steps does his Department take, since the cost-plus basis is admitted to be such an expensive way of placing-contracts, to keep a check to see that this under-employment is not charged to Government contracts?

Wherever possible no cost-plus contracts are given. It is only sometimes when the costs are quite unpredictable that we are forced to agree to such contracts, but we avoid them wherever possible.

Hawker Aircraft Company (New Factory)

asked the Minister of Supply if he will make a statement as to the reasons for his authorisation of the move of certain of the work at present done by Hawker Aircraft in the Royal Borough of Kingston-upon-Thames to Blackpool; and if he first consulted the Minister of Labour as to the effects of the move on employment there.

An application by the Hawker Aircraft Company for a lease of the Squires' Gate Factory, Blackpool, has been approved, subject to agreement on terms. The firm needs more production space and an airfield to replace their present establishment at Langley, where facilities have become progressively inadequate for their needs. Blackpool meets both of these needs. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour has been consulted from an early stage.

Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate whether his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour expressed any opinion as to the effect of this move on employment?

My right hon. Friend is fully aware of this move. There is not likely to be any effect on employment either at Blackpool or at the firm's present place for at least a couple of years.

Before these decisions are made, what consultation takes place with employers and with the trade unions concerned in regard to the treatment of any redundancy which arises, a matter which is becoming serious in some of these localities?

The firm is moving from an area where there is considerable congestion and a considerable demand for labour to an area where there is unemployment.

Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer mean that there will not be any effect on unemployment in Blackpool for two years? May not he be wrong about that and may not the unemployment situation in Blackpool become better soon? Is he aware that the decision of Hawker Aircraft to occupy the factory will meet with the approval of everyone in Blackpool?

There will be no immediate effect on unemployment in Blackpool, except for a small number, but in two years' time it will be substantial.

Does that answer mean that there will be a substantial adverse effect on employment at Kingston-upon-Thames?

No, Sir. It is hoped and expected that there will be alternative work for these people.

In view of the long delay there has been in finding a tenant for this very valuable factory space, is my right hon. Friend aware that he ought to be congratulated on at last persuading Hawker Aircraft to move over to that area?

Aeronautical Research

asked the Minister of Supply what is the present cost of research on civil aircraft development and ground control problems for civil aviation.

A large part of the expenditure on aeronautical research and development is of benefit to both civil and military aviation. It is not, therefore possible to give a separate figure for the former.

Can the Minister answer that part of the Question relating to ground control problems?

Ground control is common to both.

Raw Materials (Trading Account)

asked the Minister of Supply when he expects to furnish the Trading Account, 1948–49, for raw materials to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Before the end of this month.

Is the Minister aware that he has contravened the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act, 1921, by not presenting his accounts before 30th November? Is he also aware that Socialist administration must and does break down, and that this is creating chaos in the country?

I cannot agree with the hon. Member. These accounts have been slightly delayed because we were waiting for the report to be sent in by a number of professional accountants. The draft accounts were submitted to the Treasury before the end of November, and the final and completed accounts will be submitted before the end of this month.

De Havilland Comet (Financial Assistance)

asked the Minister of Supply what assistance financially, from public funds or otherwise, has been given towards the development of the de Havilland Comet.

The total expenditure incurred by my Department which has contributed to the development of the de Havilland Comet is estimated at about £4 million. The main item is the cost of developing the Ghost engine which can, of course, be used in other aircraft. Other items include the three prototypes of an aircraft known as the D.H.108, built to obtain experience of the aerodynamic problems involved in the Comet project. As my hon. Friend is aware, my Ministry is the purchaser of the Comet aircraft now flying and also of the second aircraft nearing completion. The price of these two Comets, which will be used for experimental purposes, is included in the £4 million. That figure does not however, cover the cost of basic research work, wind tunnel tests, etc., carried out in Ministry of Supply Experimental Establishments. I am not aware of any financial assistance to de Havillands on this project otherwise than from public funds.

Since my right hon. Friend has given details of a contract with a private firm in this case, could he not do the same in the case of the Question I put to him earlier? In any event, can he say how much of this contract was on a cost-plus basis, which we know to be so wasteful?

I was not giving the contract with de Havilland's but was estimating the amount for development and research which has gone towards the building of the Comet aircraft.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that a large return will be obtained from this investment for military aircraft, and does he not further agree that his Department is getting full value for money?

Yes, I fully agree with everything that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said.

While I fully agree that we are getting value for money, can my right hon. Friend say how many of these fine aircraft are now on order by this country and others?

No, Sir. The Ministry of Civil Aviation has a number on order and my Department has on order the first two for experimental purposes, as I have mentioned.

Atomic Bomb

asked the Minister of Supply whether this country is now able to manufacture the atomic bomb.

It would not be in the public interest for me to answer this Question.

Could the Minister tell us whether this information was revealed to the Leader of the Opposition in the recent conversation, or is the Leader of the Opposition being left in ignorance, too, for security reasons?

That question should be addressed to the Prime Minister.

Can my right hon. Friend tell us exactly in what way the public interest is served by withholding this information?

The development on any defence project is always withheld from public information, I should have thought for obvious reasons.

Is it a fact that the Americans have told us quite positively that we are not to use the knowledge we have, and are not to be allowed to make the bomb?

The hon. Gentleman seems to be better informed than I am.

May I ask my right hon. Friend, with great respect, whether he will review this secrecy provision in relation to atomic energy, because it is the generally-held view among American scientists that to get rid of secrecy would enable us to get on more rapidly with the project?

There is no secrecy regarding technical information on basic atomic research. I know that every effort is made to see that that is not secret.

Since it is known that the United States of America can make it, and since it is also known that the Soviet Union can make it, and since neither country thinks it inconsistent with its public interest to have those facts known, why should it be against the public interest to know whether we can make it or not?

Ministry Of Works

Requisitioned Hotels

11.

asked the Minister of Works how many of the 94 hotels held by his Department on 30th September last does he propose to release in time for conversion to normal use in next year's summer holiday season

The number of hotels held by my Department on 30th September last was 64. Approximately 12 will have been released in time for conversion to normal use by next summer; of these seven have been released since September.

With regard to the remaining 52, in view of the uneconomic cost of building hotels, and the dollar-earning capacity of this industry, will the right hon. Gentleman study each case to see whether he cannot expedite release?

Yes, and our desire is to release them as soon as possible.

Building Industry (Working Party)

12.

asked the Minister of Works if he has now received the report of the Working Party on the Building Industry which was appointed in July. 1948; and if he proposes to publish this document.

No, Sir.

As the Minister said in May that he hoped this report would be available at the end of this year, and as the prices of building materials are still mounting steadily, will my right hon. Friend see what can be done to speed up the report?

I understand that the report is in preparation, and I shall probably receive it early in the New Year.

Twinwood Camp, Bedfordshire (Conditions)

13.

asked the Minister of Works whether he is aware of the unsatisfactory conditions obtaining at the Twinwood Camp, Clapham, Bedfordshire, a hostel for workers at the nearby Aeronautical Research Station; and whether, in view of the widespread dissatisfaction caused by these conditions, he will take some early action to investigate and remedy them.

No, Sir. I am not aware that conditions at Twinwood Labour Camp are unsatisfactory. If my hon. Friend has any details in his possession, I will have the matter investigated.

May I give my hon. Friend one or two details now for his investigation? May I ask him whether he is aware that there are no sheets on 300 beds, that the blankets on those beds are never changed—

The hon. Gentleman appears to be giving information and not asking for it. That is not the point of Questions.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Owing to the fact that the Minister does not appear to be aware of the information I have, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment in order to provide him with the details which he ought already to have.

Mantegna Cartoons (Display)

16.

asked the Minister of Works whether he has yet agreed with the Surveyor of the King's Pictures on a better method of displaying the Mantegna cartoons at Hampton Court.

No, Sir. Various suggestions are being explored, but it may be another month or so before a decision can be reached.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his Department are perpetrating something in the nature of a swindle by charging 3d. for admission to see some cartoons which cannot be seen because of the bad lighting?

I agree that the lighting is not as good as it should be and experiments are being carried out to improve it.

Building Work (Exemption Limits)

18.

asked the Minister of Works what action he proposes to take in connection with the proposed reduction in the exemption limit for building licensing.

I have made an order under Defence Regulation 56A reducing from £1,000 to £500 the amount which may be spent without licence on individual properties in the categories of industrial and agricultural building in the 12 months from 1st July, 1949 to 30th June, 1950; the corresponding amount for office buildings, storage buildings and educational buildings is reduced from £1,000 to £100. These new limits will take effect from 1st February next so that work started under the previous limit but costing more than the new limit will not require a licence if it is finished before 1st February; otherwise an application for a licence should be made in good time before that date.

The order makes no change in the £100 exemption limit for the remaining classes of building.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the estimated reduction of capital investment will be as a result of this?

No, I cannot, but what it does do is to bring this business more under control so that we can keep it in relation to the other things for which we have to give licences.

Can the Minister do anything about issuing better licences and better priorities for homes for the people? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the Orpington area we were allowed to build only 400 houses last year and we could have built over 1,000? Will the right hon. Gentleman set about the Minister of Health?

Food Office, West Lothian

19.

asked the Minister of Works why his promise, made to Bathgate Town Council, that a start would be made in November with the provision of a new food office for West Lothian, has not been carried out; whether he is aware that the inconvenience involved is more than ever resented; and what he now proposes to do to remedy the position.

The delay in starting this project is due to the review of the building programme necessitated by the cuts in capital investment. It has now been decided that the project will go on and tenders for the work are in course of examination.

Does that mean that the project will be completed within the time previously indicated?

I am afraid I could not give that assurance, but I hope so.

Petrol Supplies

Foreign And Colonial Services (Leave)

22.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what allowance of petrol is granted to officers of the Foreign and Colonial Services respectively, while on leave in this country.

A British civilian on leave from abroad would receive, in addition to the standard ration for his own car, a special allowance sufficient to provide for 150 miles of motoring.

How does that correspond with the petrol allowance given to officers of the Fighting Services on leave?

The allowances for Service personnel are slightly larger than those for civilians.

Commercial Travellers

23.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware that in many areas the maximum supplementary allowance of petrol allotted to commercial travellers is insufficient; and whether he will now immediately review his regulations to enable a higher maximum to be given in cases where it can be justified.

The maximum allowances for commercial travellers were increased last February after consultation with the associations representing commercial travellers and the Association of British Chambers of Commerce. I regret that in present circumstances I could not agree to any revision that would result in a further increase of petrol consumption.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the imposition of a rigid maximum such as exists today results on occasions in firms having to appoint an extra commercial traveller to cover a particular area, and does not this rigid maximum in actual fact result in limiting the amount of work that any one man can do in a day or in a given period? Is that not most undesirable in our present situation?

We considered very carefully, in consultation with representatives of the commercial travellers, whether we could not have another system which, I agree, might be more equitable than the present one, but we all came to the same conclusion that it was quite impracticable.

Will the Minister say why it is not possible to judge each case on its merits and to allocate an extra ration of petrol to a commercial traveller who has a wider area to cover?

It really is quite impossible to administer petrol rationing on the basis of every case being treated on its merits without any rules whatever.

Is it not recognised, both in the Treasury and in the other Departments concerned, that a motor car to a commercial traveller is a tool of the trade; and did not the right hon. Gentleman himself promise me many months ago that that particular aspect of the subject would be reconsidered with a view to coming to a general decision favourable to the commercial travellers?

It was reconsidered, as I have just explained, but unfortunately we came to the conclusion that a change was impracticable.

Baxtrol

29.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he proposes to control the manufacture and sale of Baxtrol, in view of the fact that this substance has to be mixed with petrol if it is to be effective.

No, Sir; not for the present.

Subject to the needs of industrial users and speedways being satisfied, is it necessary to ban supplies of acetone and methanol from the makers of Baxtrol?

No, Sir. As far as I know, there is no intention of banning supplies.

Hire Cars, Edinburgh

30.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will review the conditions on which petrol is allocated to owners of self-drive hire cars in Edinburgh.

The conditions on which petrol is allocated to owners of hire cars, whether chauffeur-driven or self-drive, are similar throughout the country. The need for additional hire cars in any particular place is assessed in the light of all other transport facilities in the area, including existing hire-car services.

I have recently received a report on the position in Edinburgh and am satisfied that the number of self-drive hire cars at present available in the city is adequate. But I propose to arrange for a further review before the next tourist season.

How can the Minister say that—this happened a week after I had received a letter from his hon. Friend in the terms in which he has just replied—when the Scottish Tourist Board announced that, after carrying out a very careful survey, they realised that only 50 per cent. of the demand had been able to be met during last summer? The right hon. Gentleman really must get this thing straight.

I cannot accept that the opinion of the hire-car operators themselves is necessarily final in this matter.

No, this was the Scottish Tourist Board.

Is the Minister able to say whether he pursued the normal course in this matter or an abnormal course? Did he consult only the police before he came to this decision?

I consulted my own officers, who took what advice they thought was necessary, including, no doubt, that of the police.

But did they consult any bodies other than the police?

I do not think so. They have not themselves received any complaints from tourists that they were unable to obtain these facilities.

Would the Minister consider consulting the Chamber of Commerce of the City of Edinburgh, which is well informed on these matters?

I am perfectly prepared to consider advice from anybody.

Surely the Minister does not confuse the Scottish Tourist Board with the owner-drivers? Why did he say that he would not take the opinion of the owner-drivers as final? I did not ask him to do so.

Because, according to my information, the Scottish Tourist Board received their information from the hire-car operators.

I give notice, Mr. Speaker, that had I been at all lucky in the ballot in the last three weeks, I would have raised this matter on the Adjournment.

Commercial Petrol (Regulations)

36.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what further amendment of his regulations he proposes to make as a result of the discovery in Lancashire of a consignment of white petrol, which reacted to police tests in the same way as commercial spirit.

None, Sir. Neither the red dye nor the ingredient prescribed for commercial petrol under the Motor Spirit Regulations were found in the consignment of petrol referred to in the Question.

Why should law-abiding persons be pounced on by the Minister's officials and their pumps be sealed merely because the right hon. Gentleman cannot get the chemical basis of his tests right and reliable?

It is not a question of the chemical basis of the tests being wrong. This is a question of the initial tests by the police and not of the analysis.

Is it proposed to compensate the perfectly innocent garage proprietors whose business was stopped for three days?

No, Sir.

Are further supplies of this same petrol being distributed throughout the country?

We are going into the exact reason why this particular consignment of petrol reacted in the way it did to the police test. I cannot make a further statement at present.

Fuel And Power

Gas Industry (Training)

24.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he has yet agreed with the Gas Council a general programme of training and education in accordance with Section 4 of the Gas Act, 1948.

No, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied with the progress being made by the area boards in the development of this scheme?

The Gas Council, I understand, have a committee considering education and training. I do not think it is reasonable to expect them to produce a complete scheme so soon after vesting day.

Domestic Coal Ration

31.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will give an estimate of the saving in manpower and expenditure which would result if the rationing of domestic coal were ended; and if he is now able to agree to do this.

About 5,000 and £1¼ million respectively. The reply to the second part of the Question is, No, Sir.

Can my right hon. Friend say, if he cannot abolish domestic coal rationing now, whether there is any hope that he will be able to do so in the near future?

Unfortunately, it would cost us some £20 million worth of foreign exchange if we were to supply the coal that would be required as a result of abolishing rationing, and I would not care to prophesy when coal output will have reached the point at which we shall be able to abolish rationing.

Kirkcaldy Corporation (Gas Order)

The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. HENDERSON STEWART:

33. To ask the Minister of Fuel and Power why he refused the request of the County Council of Fife for a copy of the report of the recent inquiry into the Gas Order promoted by Kirkcaldy Corporation; and if, in view of the direct interest of the Fife County Council in this matter, he will cause a copy of the report to be sent to the council forthwith.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Might I say that the Fife County Council approached the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Stewart) and the hon. Member for West Fife, and as the hon. Member for East Fife is not here, could you not stretch a point and allow the Question to be answered?

It can be asked only by the hon. Member who put it down.

British Electricity Authority (Report)

34.

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power when the report and accounts of the British Electricity Authority will be published.

I have now received the report and accounts and expect that they will be published about the middle of January.

Is there any reason for such a prolonged delay now that the Bradford by-election is over?

There were considerable difficulties during the first year, both on the accounts side and as regards the report, which I do not think will recur in future.

Legal Aid (Poor Persons)

39.

asked the Attorney-General whether, pending the introduction of the Legal Aid Scheme, he will recommend that the present weekly maximum income of £4 for applicants under the Poor Persons Rules be increased.

No, Sir. That part, of the Legal Aid and Advice Act which has not been deferred deals with litigation covered at present by the Poor Persons Rules and will be brought into force at about the date previously planned, namely, July, 1950. If the income limits under the existing system were increased as an interim measure, the Law Society could not both reorganise their present arrangements for that purpose and plan for the new scheme so as to be able to administer it by that date.

Does the reply of my right hon. and learned Friend mean that we are now definitely assured that the first part of the Legal Aid Scheme will be definitely introduced in or about July of next year?

Yes. We hope that that part of the scheme which deals with litigation in the High Court will be introduced about that date; and that is the part of the scheme which covers the existing poor persons procedure.

Food Supplies

Uruguayan Meat (Price)

40.

asked the Minister of Food what increase in the price of meat from Uruguay has been agreed.

The new meat contract with Uruguay has not yet been signed. Until it is, I am unable to make any announcement about prices.

South African Canned Pilchards

41.

asked the Minister of Food what is the estimated quantity of canned pilchards which will be imported from South Africa in the forthcoming year.

About 2,500 tons have been offered, but no contract has yet been made.

May I ask the right hon. Lady, when considering these contracts, if she will always take into consideration the importance of Cornish pilchards, and see to it that these imports do not hurt this industry?

Certainly I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we take that into consideration, but he must also remember that the Cornish pilchard industry only produces 1,500 tons of pilchards per year while the total consumption is 12,000 tons a year.

Subsidies

42.

asked the Minister of Food to what extent the total paid in subsidies on bacon, meat and tea is to be increased following the increase in the weekly ration of those commodities.

The total extra cost in the year 1949–50 is estimated at £5.4 million. Of this amount £2.6 million was included in the estimate given on 1st November in reply to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Captain Hewitson).

Does the answer mean that the subsidy will meet the cost or that the consumer will meet it?

The subsidy will meet the cost.

Is that consistent with the statement of the Chancellor about limitations on the subsidy?

I would remind the hon. Gentleman that in my answer I referred to the answer given to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull, and then the subsidy was at £462 million.

Does that mean that if ever the ration is increased, we have to consider an increase in the subsidy, and that therefore the extra payment comes from the taxpayers?

No, the right hon. and gallant Member must realise that these subsidies fluctuate from month to month and that the prices fluctuate. The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave the undertaking that he hopes to keep it at £465 million and that is why I have told the hon. Member what the subsidy is now.

Will my right hon. Friend consider increasing the national expenditure on subsidies by bringing forward by a fortnight the increased allocation of sugar, so that we can have more for Christmas?

Office, Morecambe

43.

asked the Minister of Food if he will give instructions that the food office in Morecambe is to be kept open for the use of householders and 932 caterers.

Owing to accommodation difficulties, the concentration in the Morecambe area will be confined to tie transfer of the administrative control of the food office to the Birkenhead district office. The Morecambe office will continue to be available for the use of consumers and traders until such time as suitable premises for the district office become available.

Birkenhead is 50 miles away; is that not a mistake?

Perhaps the hon. Member is not quite clear on this point. Only the administrative control will be conducted from Birkenhead. Finally, the district office, in which I think the hon. Member is interested, will be at Lancaster.

Fruit

44.

asked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that there are in South Antrim and in County Armagh orchards lying thick with apples, including tons of Bramleys, for which there is no market owing to foreign competition, and that there are also eating pears, superior to any obtained abroad, which are rotting in the orchards owing to the quantities coming in from Italy and the Netherlands; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent the Northern Ireland fruit grower from being completely deprived of his market owing to foreign competition.

The apple crop in Northern Ireland is almost entirely composed of cookers and I cannot agree that their marketing has suffered in any way from the distribution last October of about half a pound per head of imported eating apples. And as for pears, under one-tenth of a pound per head are grown in Northern Ireland, and it is only those of poor, quality that have failed to find a market.

May I ask the right hon. Lady whether, before importing these foreign apples and pears, she consulted the Minister of Agriculture for Northern Ireland, who would have given her very accurate information?

If the hon. Gentleman consults that Department, he will find that they agree with everything I have said. Surely the hon. Gentleman would not deny his constituents half a pound of eating apples?

As this country is so delighted to receive millions of our eggs, as the Home Secretary stated on 1st December, will not the right hon. Lady give kind consideration to our apples and pears?

58.

asked the Minister of Food if he has considered the particulars which have been sent to him concerning the difficulties being experienced by a market gardener in Kent in marketing his fruit crop; and what action does he propose to take.

This complaint is similar to the one in the hon. Member's Question of 31st October and I must refer him to the reply which I gave him on that occasion.

I cannot let the right hon. Lady get away with it like that. Is not she aware that Government interference, by bulk purchase and State control in the markets, is creating enormous losses to growers and farmers, and enormous losses to the public, and keeping food short—I believe on purpose?

I think the hon. Member is becoming repetitive.

On a point of Order. Why should I be accused of having the hiccups?

Sweets (Overseas Visitors)

56.

asked the Minister of Food under what regulation visitors from overseas are permitted to apply for coupons for an extra 2 lb. of sweets over and above the normal ration; how many such coupons were issued during the year ending on the latest convenient date; and whether all persons of other than British nationality may obtain such coupons notwithstanding that they may be permanently resident in this country.

This is an administrative arrangement which was introduced on 14th August, 1949, and I am afraid that no figures are available to show the number of coupons issued. The extra sweets are available only to overseas visitors staying temporarily in this country.

Will the right hon. Lady say how long "temporary" means for this purpose, and how the scheme is brought to the notice of visitors?

The length of time depends on how long they keep their temporary ration books.

Commonwealth Sugar Production

59.

asked the Minister of Food what steps he is taking to encourage the Empire sugar producers to increase production, with special regard to the small sugar ration at present in force in this country, the impracticability of increasing supplies from dollar sources and the talks being held in London during December, 1949, between this country and sugar producers throughout the world.

The greatest incentive for Commonwealth sugar producers to expand their production was provided in 1948, when for a period of five years we undertook to find a market within the Commonwealth for all the sugar which they could produce for export. The main object of the discussions now being held in London is to make arrangements for a term of years beginning in 1953.

May I ask whether the West Indian delegates have really had a square deal? Cannot we have an assurance that we shall have not only the sugar they produce today but their increased production, so as to make sure that people in this country get their proper ration? Why not do something for the Empire? I want something done for the Empire.

Quite seriously, can my right hon. Friend say whether the keen apprehensions expressed by the Jamaican representatives were justified? Is it the case that we are drastically cutting down our guarantee to the West Indies in order to take half a million tons of sugar from the dollar area, and if so, why?

I think my hon. Friend knows that negotiations are still proceeding, and it would not be proper for me to make any comment on them at this stage.

During the course of those negotiations, which at the present moment appear to be in danger, will the right hon. Lady have particular regard to what was said by the Secretary of State for the Colonies during the Colonial Debate in July; a statement which was taken as representing the view of the Government and which gave great satisfaction to the West Indies?

Yes, Sir. We always consider the view of the Secretary of State for the Colonies.

Can my right hon. Friend say what steps she is taking to ensure that when this sugar reaches the consumer in this country he gets sugar for his money and not political propaganda?

Since the Jamaican representatives thought that the conference had reached such a crisis that they almost had to walk out of it and had to issue these statements, cannot my right hon. Friend say anything in reply to the very full statements which they have made?

No, Sir. not at this stage.

Privilege (Complaint)

45.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether the Government propose to find time to debate the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Aston before 16th December.

[ That the matter of the complaint of the hon. Member for Ashford, referred to in the statement of Mr. Speaker on Monday, 5th December, be referred to the Committee of Privileges.]

I fear that time is not available for the consideration of tny hon. Friend's Motion

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Mr. Powell runs a lobbying agency in this House on the American principle and that his activities ought to be investigated, particularly the facilities he gets as secretary of the Inter-Parliamentary Union? Mr. Speaker said that it would be quite open for any hon. Member to put down a Motion, but there is no point in doing that unless it is debated. Is my right hon. Friend also aware that there is considerable anxiety in the House that this matter is, apparently, being allowed to go by default?

I appreciate the point my hon. Friend raises, but the fact is that between now and Friday I am sure there is not time to deal with the matter and the Motion. Moreover, it would be for the Committee of Privileges to deal with it and to report to the House; and taking all this into account, I am afraid it is physically impossible.

Is not this matter being erected into something of importance, whereas it is merely a question of tittle-tattle—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—and is it not regrettable that an hon. Member on this side of the House should be doing the dirty work for someone else?

Oh.

Without prejudice to the case, surely the right way to look at it is in terms of harm being done to Mr. Powell until this thing is decided one way or the other? After all, grave accusations have been made against him, and it seems to me to be not fair to any citizen to have these charges bandied about, especially in the House of Commons, without any possibility of a reply.

In the ordinary way what would have happened would have been for the matter to be raised as a matter of Privilege at the proper time. I am not blaming anyone, but Mr. Speaker did draw attention to the fact that it was not raised in time. The question for me is the provision of time for a special Motion, and I just have not got time.

While it is quite true that the question of Privilege fell because it was not raised at the right moment, is it not rather unfortunate that time should be found this week for all sorts of Motions which are less urgent, and was it not implicit in Mr. Speaker's Ruling and is it not true that time could be found for this matter while this particular slur—if I may use the word—rests upon a gentleman, who is not a Member of this House, who is accused and whose case ought to be investigated by someone?

All the matters which are being dealt with this week are matters of definite public interest, and that has to be kept in mind. If I may say so, with respect to you, Sir, quite properly, when faced with the question of the other alternative hon. Members had open to them, you pointed out that a Motion could be put down, but that in no way prejudiced the issue of whether time would be available to debate the Motion.

On a point of Order. May I ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker, on a general question arising out of this Question, but without prejudice to the case? Do the Rules of Order make any distinction between ordinary lobbying by constituents and others for the purposes of ensuring that their point of view is duly considered by hon. Members—of which, of course, no one disapproves—and the activities of people who, for monetary gain, make a practice of contacting Members of Parliament with a view to influencing their actions, and who are employed and paid for that purpose by outside vested interests?

I do not think I can give a definite Ruling on that. That is a matter which I think the House should decide for itself.

While recognising that there is a point as to the use of particular parts of this House, Committee corridors and so on, can it not be made clear that this gentleman is not accused of any crime, or even of bad behaviour, and that it is a very real service to hon. Members in all parts of this House to have technical help in bringing forward any proper case to present to Parliament?

In view of the very keen interest taken in this matter and the fact that the Minister says there is no time between now and Friday to discuss it, is it not possible, on a special matter of this kind, for the House to work longer hours, as we are advising other people to work longer hours?

I am interested to know that the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) is advising other people to work longer hours.

May I ask, Sir, whether you have had any report from the Inter-Parliamentary Union, as I understood you to say that the matter is now in their hands?

I understand it is coming today and I propose to say something tomorrow.

May I ask for your advice and guidance, Sir, further to the advice which you tendered to the House last week and which was followed by my hon. Friend the Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) putting down the Motion? Is it not the case that such a Motion takes precedence over all other business in that respect?

No. This is an ordinary Private Member's Motion and it has no precedence. I do not know whether we could save time over this matter, because, after all, this Session ends on Friday but another one presumably begins on 24th January, and it will be open to any Member to put down the same Motion again after that date.

Is my right hpn. Friend aware that there is also another reason why it is important that this matter should be investigated, namely, that there should seem to be no bar to a proper and impartial investigation. It has been said that Mr. Powell is a Freemason and that because he is a Freemason other persons are interested in seeing that this matter is not properly investigated.

In view of what his hon. Friend has now twice said in this House, will not the Lord President reconsider his decision and, in fairness to Mr. Powell, allow this matter to be discussed, even if it involves suspending the Rule on one night this week?

I am afraid not, because there are two schools of thought in the House. One is that Mr. Powell has done something wrong and the other is that he is innocent. I am not pronouncing judgment on that, but in case there should be any misunderstanding of what my hon. Friend the Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) said, may I say that I am not a Freemason. The trouble is that even if time could be found for discussion of the Motion by suspending the Rule, the matter would not stop there. It would have to go to the Committee of Privileges, which would have to take some little time over it and which would report, and if the House wanted to debate that report, it is clear that those stages could not be completed by the end of the Session.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman keep saying that the matter would have to go to the Committee of Privileges? There is no reason for it having to do anything of the sort.

The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is getting rather heated, but has he read the Motion? It terminates with the words

"be referred to the Committee of Privileges."

It does not follow that the Motion need be accepted. The matter could be ventilated in the House and the general opinion of the House taken. It might be that after that the House would negative the Motion but come to a general conclusion as to what ought to be done.

In the circumstances of this case, that would not do either. I nearly got into trouble fairly recently because I thought that a case was pretty obvious and that the House could dispose of it summarily. I was met with the argument that it ought to go to the Committee of Privileges—and that was raised from the Opposition Front Bench—and the House so referred it. Here is a Motion which definitely proposes that the matter should go to the Committee of Privileges. Therefore, I think that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is quite wrong.

In view of the biased and in my opinion unfair statement made by the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Levy) in regard to this case, might I point out for the benefit of the House that I was concerned in this matter, and that I did ask Mr. Powell, as I could not be present at that Committee myself, to see that those in opposition to the Bill should co-ordinate their efforts and make known their opposition in the Committee.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in my previous question I was at great pains to put it in general terms, and also to specify that I was putting it without prejudice to this case. As both the interests of Mr. Powell and the interests of this House are involved, and as you, Mr. Speaker, have also reminded us that there is no necessary presumption that there is not to be another Session, might I ask my right hon. Friend whether, since he has advanced as his only reason for opposing this Motion the consideration of time, he will tell us if he will sympathetically consider allowing time for this Motion during the next Session?

Certainly, I will give perfectly fair and open-minded consideration to it in the next Session of Parliament.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that, although he has quite accurately stated that there are two possible views on the point he mentioned, there is one point on which I think the House is unanimous, which is that no citizen should be condemned unheard? Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that if no facilities are given to debate the Motion of the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt), Mr. Powell will necessarily lie under some suspicion for a long time?

I have said nothing condemnatory about the matter at all. I have stated that there has been more than one view expressed about it. I do not think that there is really all that injustice being done.

Germany (Synthetic Rubber Plants)

46.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why, in view of his negotiations with the United States of America for the reduction of their synthetic rubber production, he agreed to the starting up of synthetic rubber plants in Germany; and at what annual rate of production from 1950 onwards.

The manufacture in Germany of synthetic rubber is forbidden under Article V of the Prohibited and Limited Industries Agreement of April, 1949; this prohibition was not modified by the recent Agreement with the German Federal Chancellor.

Are we to take it from the fact that this dismantling has been stopped in these factories, that there will be any change of policy in regard to the manufacture of synthetic rubber?

Synthetic rubber will not be manufactured, even though the factories have not been dismantled.

North Atlantic Treaty

47.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will give an undertaking, in connection with the agreement to be negotiated under the Atlantic Pact, that no commitment will be entered into by His Majesty's Government outside the framework of the United Nations organisation.

Any agreements negotiated under the North Atlantic Treaty will of course be governed by the provisions of the Treaty itself, Article 7 of which states that:

"This Treaty does not affect, and shall not be interpreted as affecting, in any way the rights and obligations under the Charter of the Parties which are members of the United Nations, or the primary responsibility of the Security Council for the maintenance of international peace and security."

We all know that the pact is not within sight of the spirit of the United Nations organisation. Will my hon. Friend take great pains to see that these bilateral treaties do come within the spirit of the United Nations?

Since the assumption is incorrect, that action would not be appropriate.

48.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will give an undertaking, in connection with the agreement to be negotiated under the Atlantic Pact, that he will not surrender to any other Power or body the right to declare war on behalf of Great Britain and will not enter into any commitment whereby Great Britain can become automatically involved in war.

It is the prerogative of the Crown to declare war, and I can assure the hon. Member that His Majesty's Government will not surrender this right to any other Power or body. By Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty the United Kingdom is committed, in the event of an armed attack on any of the parties in Europe or North America, to take

"such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."

Any supplementary agreements or arrangements which may be negotiated under the treaty Will not increase or diminish this commitment.

We all know that the terms of the first of these bilateral treaties are now being negotiated between France and the United States of America. Can we have an assurance that the terms that we shall agree to, will not be more degrading and humiliating than those now being imposed upon France?

Iraq (Transit Visas)

49.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that holders of British passports passing through Iraq in transit are subjected to delay and inconvenience and refusal of transit visa on the grounds of their religion; and what action he proposes to take.

The attention of my right hon. Friend has not so far been drawn to any case in which a transit visa has been refused on the ground of the applicant's religion. On these and other grounds certain visa applications have, however, been referred to the Iraqi authorities in Bagdad for decision, but this practice of referring applications to the central government is common to many States, and no action is at present contemplated by His Majesty's Government.

Is it not a fact that, as in the case which I referred to the Secretary of State, great inconvenience and delay are caused, on grounds of religion to the holders of British passports, and that they are subjected to humiliation and have to remain locked up in planes? Will the hon. Gentleman see that, when they are proceeding on their lawful occasions, they are not subjected to these discriminatory practices on the grounds of religion?

Where there are delays and inconveniences—and they do exist—I shall be glad to take up individual cases, but I do not accept all the facts which the hon. Member has stated. We have no grounds for intervention at present.

Is my hon. Friend not aware that, while it is true that on special reference to headquarters, permission has ultimately been obtained in an individual case, the general rule in Iraq at the moment is not to permit persons of the Jewish faith to have even transit facilities over Iraq, even when they are British citizens or the citizens of any other country? Is it not on the basis of that general discrimination that the Foreign Secretary ought to take some action or make some representation?

No. I can only say that I am not aware of any case in which a visa has been refused. I am aware that there have been delays, and I shall be glad to take up individual cases.

The hon. Gentleman says that he will be glad to take up individual cases. Does he not remember the case which I referred to him of the son of a High Court judge in this country, a man with an excellent Service record, who was subjected to a great deal of expense in sending telegrams to the chief of police in Bagdad, and that he has refused to take up this man's case and is completely supine in taking up the case of a British subject?

I cannot accept that. I understand that a visa was not refused. There may have been delay, but there would have been less delay if we had been asked to interfere when the dispute started.

British Embassy, Madrid

51.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many persons are employed on the staff of the British Embassy at Madrid; and what are their functions.

The British staff numbers 47. In addition, there are 75 locally engaged employees, most of whom are Spanish nationals. In addition to the usual political staff, the Embassy contains Commercial, Consular and Information Sections. Their functions are those normally assigned to the staffs of His Majesty's Missions at foreign capitals.

Can my hon. Friend tell me whether His Majesty's Government still consider themselves bound by the Resolution of the United Nations not to increase the staff by re-appointing the Ambassador; and secondly what changes in the composition or methods of the present Spanish Government have taken place since that Resolution was passed, or since my right hon. Friend said in this House that he detested the Franco regime?

The answer to the first part of the question is, Yes. Regarding the second part, I am aware of no such changes.

Can the hon. Gentleman say when the Government will end the ridiculous position which they have taken up in sending an Ambassador to Russia and not one to Madrid?

The question only asked how many men were employed. There is nothing about sending an Ambassador.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House whether the Spanish Ministry for Foreign Affairs still insist on vetting appointments, even of junior members, to the staff of the Embassy, as they once did?

I am not aware of that.

Are any members of the staff really Members of Parliament in disguise?

Ussr And Eastern Europe (British Subjects)

52.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many diplomatic protests have been made to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Governments of Eastern European States as a result of improper treatment or imprisonment of British subjects since January, 1946.

It is difficult to establish how many of the numerous communications made to these Governments since this date fall within the category described. I regret that the necessary research would involve an unjustifiable expenditure of labour.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that these protests do run into many hundreds and is there no appropriate action between the issue of those scraps of paper and armed force which the Foreign Office can take in order to justify the protests?

I cannot mention any figure. If the hon. Member has any helpful suggestion to make, I will gladly consider it.

Could not the Government withdraw our Ambassador from Russia?

House Of Commons Catering

Herrings

53.

asked the hon. Member for West Walthamstow, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, why, when grilled herrings appear on the menu, stewed or steamed herrings with sauce are served instead.

When grilled herrings appear on the menu they are grilled, and not stewed or steamed as stated in the Question. An average of 150 grilled herrings are sold daily, but if the hon. Member wishes to have herrings separately grilled to his order, he can have them, provided he is willing to wait 10 or 12 minutes for service.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that appearances must be very deceptive, because what appears on the menu as a grilled herring when served to hon. Members would be rejected in any working men's canteen? It is flabby and at the same time hard, and is covered with one of those charity sauces that cover a multitude of sins.

During all the time I have been Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, this is the first complaint I have had about grilled herrings, which I think is a sufficient answer.

May I ask my hon. Friend why, when they serve grilled or steamed herrings, they take out the roes and serve them separately as a savory? They are getting their money twice over.

I must have notice of that question.

May I ask my hon. Friend whether the reason the hon. Member for Bury (Mr. W. Fletcher) cannot get red herrings is because they have been cornered and kept in cold storage at the Tory headquarters ready for the next Election?

Sausages (Price)

54.

asked the hon. Member for West Walthamstow, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, on what basis hon. Members are charged 5d. for a small sausage in the Members' cafeteria.

Sausages sold in the Members' tea room weigh six to the pound. The gross profit on one sausage is 2⅓ d. approximately. From this gross profit must be deducted the cost of cooking and serving, transporting to tea room, the use of a plate, knife, fork and condiment containers, and the provision of sauces, mustard, pepper, salt and cooking fat. In addition, there is the cost of book entries for buying, selling, accounting, auditing and certifying. I have not the staff to work out the decimal net profit, but I estimate it to be under 1d.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when I cut one of the sausages the other day it turned round and barked at me? May I ask him whether this enormous expense and the losses incurred by the Kitchen Committee are due to the fact that they have to take out a dog licence for every sausage?

I am not surprised that the sausage barked.

In view of the very heavy overheads in supplying the sausage, would my hon. Friend consider putting up the price?

I will ask the Committee to consider that point at their next meeting.

Power Stations, London (Strike)

I desire to make the following statement to the House: At eight o'clock this morning the manual workers at Brims-down Power Station came out on strike without notice and in breach of contract, and later today the manual workers at Taylors Lane and Littlebrook Stations similarly came out on strike. These strikes are unofficial. It is unnecessary to emphasise the detrimental effect of this action on the public welfare. The Government have decided that in order to maintain essential supplies, Service men should be used to keep the power stations going. We are confident the House will concur in this action which is designed to protect an essential public service.

I can only say, on behalf of my hon. Friends and myself, that we entirely support the very rapid action which the Minister has taken to ensure essential services to the public. We hope that he will keep the House in touch with the developments and also that the men who have struck unofficially will see reason and return to work.

In view of the suddenness with which this has come upon us, could not the Minister tell us what the strike is about, or what attempts, if any, have been made to bring about an immediate settlement? Is it not most undesirable that whenever there are strikes nowadays, the first action is to call in the Army? That is an undesirable thing from the point of view of the working-class movement.

May we be told where the places are?

They are in the region of London—Brimsdown, Taylors Lane and Littlebrook.