asked the Minister of Health if he has investigated the case, particulars of which were sent to him on 12th April, in which a resident of Burn-ham-on-Crouch, who had already been ill for a considerable time, was advised by a specialist that she would have to wait at least seven months more for a bed in Southend Hospital, but that he could perform the necessary operation privately for a fee of 25 guineas, with other charges totalling 16½ guineas; and if he will make a statement.

I have written to my hon. Friend about this case, on which the information I have differs from his.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his letter, but does he recall that it does not deal with the essential point, which is how soon will this lady, who is suffering and in need of an operation, be admitted to hospital? Is it not quite wrong that she should be given to understand that she can get an operation done quicker if she pays all this money?

I shall be happy to discuss that aspect of the case with my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Health what was the cost, to the latest convenient date, of benefits enjoyed by foreigners under the National Health Service; and what is the estimated cost of such benefits during the next six months.

Separate figures for this are not available.

asked the Minister of Health the number of beds available for persons suffering from tuberculosis in Orpington and Dartford areas at the latest convenient date.

There are at present 100 such beds in the Orpington area and 87 in the Dartford area.

Will the Minister do his best to provide beds for all those who are certified to be suffering from tuberculosis?

I think the number already provided is quite significant. The Regional Hospital Board concerned maintain central waiting lists, so that patients in these areas who are suffering from tuberculosis may be admitted wherever possible to hospitals elsewhere in the same region.

There should be no waiting lists at all.

asked the Minister of Health how long is the waiting period between the date of application for, and the date of delivery of, hearing aids under the National Health Service in the case of patients attending the York County Hospital.

The period varies from two months to about two years according to priority.

Is there any likelihood of the Minister being able to reduce this period in the near future?

Yes, Sir. I gave some encouraging figures about the increased output of hearing aids last week, I think, and as the output increases the waiting period must diminish.

Is not this area in a worse condition than other areas as regards both the number requiring hearing aids, and the time they have to wait?

I do not think it is very different. As I said last week, I have already reviewed the allocations to different areas so that the waiting period can be approximately even, throughout the country.

asked the Minister of Health why the applicants on the waiting list for hearing aid instruments at the hearing aid clinic in Taunton, amounting to about 500, are obliged to wait two years for delivery of these instruments, whereas applicants in the Oxford area only have to wait six months.

Many more patients have applied for aids at Bristol, the centre which serves Taunton, than at Oxford. Allocations of aids to the centres have recently been adjusted and take account of this factor.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that there are only two audiometricians who fit and adjust hearing aids at the regional depot at Bristol, which supplies most of the South-West Hospital Region; that in addition to fitting new instruments these two men are expected to do all the repair work for the region; and whether, in view of the serious delay in the issue of new instruments which this is causing additional audiometricians can be appointed.

Yes, Sir, but I do not accept the statement in the last part of the Question. The hospital authorities concerned have concluded that the appointment of an additional technician is not at present necessary.

Is it not a fact that there has been no shortage of instruments at Bristol, and that the trouble there has been due to the fact that there are no training facilities for additional audiometricians? Will the Minister not reconsider this matter?

As I think I explained last week, I have recently slightly increased the number of aids allocated to Bristol, and I am assured by the regional board, whose opinion I must accept, that three technicians will not be required unless a very material increase in supplies can be effected.

Who and what are "audiometricians"? Are they merely hearing aid fitters?

The Minister has said that he has recently increased the number of aids allocated to Bristol. In an answer he gave the other day he said that he had increased the number allocated to the West of England. Did he include, in that reply, Plymouth as well as Bristol?

I should require notice of that question.

asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that many simple cases of deafness do not require to be fitted for a hearing-aid instrument by a qualified audiometrician, arrangements can be made for a stock of hearing aids to be kept at the Hearing-Aid Clinic in Taunton, so that patients can normally be fitted on the spot.

No, Sir. It is essential that patients be fitted with their aids and instructed how to use them by trained staff.

Is the Minister aware that this is not the view of a number of qualified medical practitioners in Taunton, and will he please re-examine this question in view of the long waiting list for hearing aids there?

My advice is that it would be wasteful of time and talent to make any change in the present arrangements.

asked the Minister of Health why the comprehensive health centre which the Sheffield Health Committee decided to inaugurate in 1948 by conversion of the Frith Park maternity and child welfare centre is not yet in operation; and what is holding up the anticipated progress.

I understand that the doctors concerned are now unwilling to co-operate.

Can my right hon. Friend use his good offices with these difficult doctors, so that at any rate we may have one health centre in operation as an experiment before long?

Nothing would please me better than that the doctors should co-operate, because approval for the centre was given quite a long time ago. If my hon. Friend has any suggestions about action which I might take, I should be very glad if he will give them to me.

Would my right hon. Friend consider calling a meeting of the difficult doctors? It is not all the doctors in the neighbourhood who are involved. Could he not arrange for a meeting of such doctors and put the case to them?

I would be very glad to look into that possibility.

Is it not a little odd that everybody should be out of step in this matter except the Minister?

asked the Minister of Health how many persons have resigned from, or for other reasons ceased to serve on, hospital group management committees and on hospital house committees respectively, in the United Kingdom during the year 1950.

Seven hundred and fifty-one members of hospital management committees in England and Wales. The number for house committees is not available. Comparable figures in Scotland are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

Does the Minister consider that this ratio of loss of committee members is excessive in the circumstances?

No, Sir.

Do these figures include the members of group management committees removed by the Southwest Metropolitan Regional Board in its attempt to assert its will on its subordinate management committees?

The regional boards appoint those committees.

That means "yes."

asked the Minister of Health what is the number of persons serving on hospital group management committees and on hospital house committees in the United Kingdom at the last convenient date.

The number of seats on hospital management committees in England and Wales filled on 31st March, 1951, was 6,370. The actual number of serving members was somewhat less, as many were members of more than one committee. The figures for house committees are not available. Comparable figures for Scotland are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

In view of these figures, is not the number of resignations very high?

The members are appointed normally for three years; 751 out of 6,370 is not a high number.

Does the figure for the resignations include those whose period of office came automatically to an end after three years?

The previous Question that I was asked was how many resigned from, or for other reasons ceased to serve on, hospital group management committees and hospital house committees.

Could my right hon. Friend find some means of persuading hon. Members opposite that in spite of recent evidence to the House to the contrary, resignations are not always justified?

There is no intention—and it is not desirable—of perpetuating membership for ever among the same people. There must be some changes from time to time.

Could the Minister perhaps enjoin that view on his hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). His resignation would be a great help.

asked the Minister of Health if he will make a statement on the summary removal of Mr. Melbourne Davis from the Croydon Hospital Management Committee, and from the acting-chairmanship of the Mayday Hospital House Committee.

There was no summary removal. The member served his full term of office.

Is the Minister aware that such is not the impression? Is he further aware that this gentleman, after 30 years devoted service to hospitals, ought not to be removed in this summary manner, in view of the great public disquiet which has been aroused about the method and manner of his removal?

If a wrong impression prevails, I hope that the hon. and gallant Member will do his best to correct it.

asked the Minister of Health how many additional hospital beds he anticipates will be opened during the financial year 1951–52.

I am unable to give any useful estimate at this stage.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise what a very urgent matter this is, and how important it is that some idea should be given to those who were concerned in the provision of additional hospital accommodation as to how far progress is likely to be made during the coming year?

I do realise how urgent it is, and I am doing all I can about it, but that is another matter from being able to estimate how far success can be achieved during a period of a year when so much depends upon the availability of nursing staff.

Does not the opening of more beds depend mainly on the question of domestic and nursing staff?

If the Minister has not been able to estimate how many beds will be opened, what financial allocation has he made in the Estimates for this purpose?

I have already informed the House that we are allowing £15 million more this year than last year for the hospital service.

Does the right hon. Gentleman estimate that he will be able to use this extra money?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Health how many persons are on the waiting lists of hospitals in England and Wales; and what is the average period of waiting.

The total number on 31st December, 1950, was 553,577. I could not give waiting periods without making extensive inquiries, but in any case an average figure would have little significance.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this number is a matter of grave concern, and is indeed far greater than the figure which those of us who have been trying to estimate the size of the problem according to our own capacities, have reached? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that from the point of view of a locality like North-East Essex, the numbers on the waiting list have been there for about three months or more on the average? Does this not indicate to the Minister the necessity to deal with this problem urgently?

Yes, Sir. I am fully aware of the urgency of this problem, and I am doing all I can to secure an increase in the number of nurses and to make more staff beds available. I am happy to say that the number on the waiting list is less than it was a year ago.

Has my right hon. Friend any figures to show how this compares with the waiting list before the National Health Service was established? Can he say how many new beds for general hospital cases have been established since the service was instituted?

I gave the latter figure last week. I cannot with certainty state it from memory, but I think it was about 18,000 since the National Health Service started. As I say, I speak from memory, and I am subject to correction. It is not possible to say what the position was before the National Health Service started since statistics are not available.

Could not the Minister investigate that point a little further? It is of no use to give the figure since the Health Service started, which was, of course, after the end of the war. We should be interested to have the pre-war figures to compare with them. That is what the House wants to know.

That would be very interesting but, I suggest, slightly academic.

asked the Minister of Health what is the total number of recruits enrolled in the National Hospital Service Reserve; and whether he is satisfied with the progress made.

The number of recruits is now 14,675. Since in the event of war the hospital and first-aid services would need about 80,000 additional nurses, I cannot regard the present rate of progress as satisfactory.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say what action his Department is taking to deal with what is an admittedly serious situation?

Yes, Sir. The two voluntary organisations, the Red Cross and the St. John Ambulance Brigade, who have already done so much in this field, have undertaken a further special appeal to their members to join the National Hospital Service Reserve. We are undertaking a special publicity campaign this autumn together with some realistic practices in the field, which, I hope, will help to bring the numbers much above their present level.

But what inducement is being offered? It is not enough just to have publicity. These people must be offered some status if they are to be attracted.

That has already been set out very carefully in the leaflets that have been published. I think that both pay and status have been reasonably well looked after.

asked the Minister of Health what steps have been taken to ensure that hospital patients contracting for pay-bed accommodation are advised in advance of the anticipated amount of specialist fees.

These fees are arranged privately between patients and specialists, subject to maxima specified in regulations. Hospital authorities have been asked to draw attention to the maxima when private patients sign the undertaking to pay the hospital charges.

Would it not be better to abolish this pay-bed system altogether?

That would require legislation.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of vacancies registered at the Cardiff employment exchange, and the number of these which are thought suitable for persons over 65 years of age.

Last week at the employment exchange at Cardiff there were 1,557 outstanding vacancies of which it is thought that about 125 might be suitable for persons over 65 years of age.

Is the Minister aware that his first reply to a Question as Minister of Labour is a little encouraging, but only a little encouraging? Can he hold out any hope that the number of vacancies for these people is likely to be increased in view of Government policy?

I shall probably be more encouraging as I get more experience.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of persons over 65 years of age for whom employment is expected to be found in Cardiff during the next year.

I do not know.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of men and women, respectively, aged between 65 years of age and 70 years of age, who have been found employment by the Cardiff employment exchange offices during the past year.

Information of this nature is not specially recorded and to do so or to extract the details from existing documents would involve an undue expenditure of time which would not be justified.

asked the Minister of Labour how many unemployed were registered at the end of January, February, March and April, 1951; and whether any abnormal increases in unemployment have taken place in particular industries in April, 1951.

As the answer contains a table of figures, I will with permission circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

asked the Minister of Labour what staff is employed at the employment exchange at Wirksworth, Derbyshire; and what is the daily average of cases dealt with.

The staff is three and the average number of cases dealt with each day is seven. There has been a full time office at Wirksworth since 1928 at least. Pre-war, the live register of unemployed persons was over 300. Urgent consideration is being given to the question of the type of facilities to be provided in future for small towns such as Wirksworth, where the volume of work is so small.

Is the Minister satisfied that the number of staff employed in this exchange is not excessive in relation to the work?

I am anxious that a proper service should be given at the employment exchanges. At the same time, we do not want over-staffing.

asked the Minister of Labour what advice he has received from the Advisory Council on the relationship between employment in the Services and civilian life; and what progress has been made in improving the employment prospects of ex-Regular members of His Majesty's Forces on their return to civilian life.

An account of their first year's work and of the progress made is given in the Council's recent Report to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence and myself. This Report shows that more opportunities have been made available in the public services, in commerce and in industry for men and women leaving the Services and that they will have greater facilities to qualify for them. It shows that all concerned are interested in solving this problem. The Report was published in the February issue of the Ministry of Labour Gazette and is available in the Library.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement on the strike at Salford Docks.

This stoppage arises out of the refusal of two men on 23rd April to work overtime on a certain ship being discharged at Salford Docks because of the fact that overtime was not started at the time discharging commenced. They were suspended for three days and although the Dock Labour Scheme gives them a statutory right of appeal, the men declined to exercise that right and trouble developed so that on 26th April, all the men ceased work demanding the reinstatement of the two men and payment to them for their period of suspension.

There was at one time a custom at these docks under which overtime was not worked on any ship unless it had been declared necessary when discharging started. On 5th April, the Port Joint Negotiating Committee agreed that overtime should be worked whenever necessary. This is fully in accordance with the provisions of the Dock Labour Scheme.

I am sure the House will agree that there is often a reluctance to give up a practice to which men are accustomed and it may be that some of the men feel strongly about it. However that may be, the men should recognise that an agreement negotiated through the proper channels must be observed. I hope, therefore, that the men will see the wisdom of getting back to work at once in accordance with the union's advice and allow any matters arising to be properly and fairly considered.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him if he can say whether, when the negotiations commence, there will be a prospect of these two men being reinstated to their former jobs?

I should not like to prejudice any negotiations, and at this stage I express the hope that the advice I give to the dockers, through the medium of this answer, to go back and let the machinery work, will be accepted by them.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this is the first occasion upon which these circumstances have arisen since 5th April when the agreement was arrived at, and, if so, is this a test case?

This is perhaps the first occasion on which this matter has been raised.

Can the Minister say what was done to inform the men that a new agreement had been reached? Is he certain that they had the necessary information?

That would be a matter for the appropriate trade union. I am not aware what steps they took to advise their members about the new agreement which had been reached.

Is the Minister aware of the appalling delay in the discharging of ships in many of our ports and harbours?

That is another question.

asked the Minister of Education if he will make a statement as to the latest developments in the dispute between himself and the Durham County Council on its closed shop policy.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will make a statement on his meeting with representatives of the Durham County Council on the closed shop policy.

asked the Minister of Education what was the result of his interview with officials of the Durham educational authority concerning the appointment of teachers in that county.

The Durham local education authority have now given me the assurance for which I asked in my letter of 3rd April. I have also seen a deputation from the authority and discussed the resulting position with them.

Has the attention of the Minister been called to the activities of Councillor Peart over this closed shop business, and the subversive activities of this gentleman when he was a teacher? Is he aware that he recently appeared before the professional conduct committee of the National Union of Teachers for conduct detrimental, or injurious, to the interests of the profession? What action does the Minister propose to take?

The hon. Gentleman is a wicked Christian.

I have had brought to my notice quite a lot of things about this dispute.

Would it not be better to put these personal attacks on one side at this time and leave the matter where it rests, so that the education of the children can proceed without interruption?

Would the right hon. Gentleman publish all the communications which have passed between his Department and the Durham County Council, as this is a matter which interests the whole of the House?

I have published all the information which I think the House requires in order to form a decision.

Will the right hon. Gentleman publish the letters, or put them in the Library, as he did the first letters between his Department and the Durham County Council? Will he put copies of the other letters with them so that we may really know what has been said?

There have only been three letters, and the answer which indicated what the form of the former letter was appeared in HANSARD.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the National Union of Teachers are grateful to him for the commendable action he took and that they are especially anxious now for the restoration of amicable relations with the Durham County Council?

Is the right hon. Gentleman able to give the House any further details of last Tuesday's interview? Could he say whether any questions were left outstanding for further negotiation, or was everything settled entirely at that interview?

I am anxious, as I think is everybody who has the interests of the children at heart, to bring about the re-establishment of good relations. The only reason I had for meeting them was to seek that re-establishment.

Did the right hon. Gentleman get it?

We are on the way.

Will my right hon. Friend provide, for the purposes of the Opposition, the papers and letters that have passed with reference to teachers in Middlesex?

asked the Minister of Education whether he is aware that physical training carried out in schools by children in bare feet encourages the spread of plantar warts; and what steps he is taking to prevent this.

In his Report of 1946 and 1947, which was published in 1949, the Chief Medical Officer of my Department discussed this condition and stated that the way in which it is spread remained obscure. Advice on preventive measures was given in the Report for 1937 and there is nothing at present to add to it.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that there have been a considerable number of complaints about this matter in various schools? If he or his medical advisers cannot make up their minds, would it at least be possible for the parents to have the right to say whether their children should wear shoes or not?

In this case, I understand that the medical officer concerned has, at any rate for a temporary period, discontinued this form of exercise.

Could that be made national?

No. I do not think that it needs to be made national.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say, from his own knowledge, whether the former President of the Board of Trade suffers from this unfortunate trouble?

asked the Minister of Education what decision he has reached concerning the granting of a licence to enclose the Patchdean playing fields, Patcham, Brighton, with iron fencing; and whether he is now allowing, in view of the re-armament needs, iron railings to be replaced throughout the country.

The local education authority have not approached me about this proposal. My general views on the type of fencing which should normally be used in present circumstances are contained in Administrative Memorandum No. 395, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Question was first put down to the Minister of Supply, when it really made sense; that it was then passed on to the Minister of Works, who seemed sufficiently interested to get his P.P.S. to ask me to postpone it for three days, and that it was then passed to the Minister of Education? Does he realise that the residents are becoming rather fed up at being constantly messed about in this matter?

If the hon. Member will read the answer and the Administrative Memorandum he will find that at last it does make sense.

asked the Minister of Education why the Cooperfield School Camp, Itchingfield, Sussex, is to be closed; whether this can be reconsidered; and, if necessary, whether the school could be made available for children from any educational authority in order to avoid its closure.

This is one of four camps which the Essex authority have been leasing from the National Camps Corporation. I understand that the authority have taken this decision because the demand to attend the camp has not been sufficient to justify the expense, particularly in the winter months. I am anxious that the valuable facilities which all the National Camps afford should be used to the full, particularly by those children most in need of an open-air life in the country, and I hope that as a result of approaches now being made to certain local education authorities by the National Camps Corporation, with my support, this and other camps will continue in use, possibly by two or more authorities in conjunction.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that reply will give great satisfaction to many of those concerned? Does it mean that this camp will be available for children from the Essex area if the authority find some to send there?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Education if he has yet received the recommendations of the Whitley Council on salaries of school dental officers; and if he will make a statement.

The Dental Whitley Council does not make its recommendations to me but to the employing authorities. I have, however, seen the recommendations and am glad that agreement has been reached on a salary scale for dentists in local authority employment which will help to remove the present difficulties of the school dental service. Local education authorities are already aware from an Administrative Memorandum issued in October, 1949, of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy, that they do not need my approval to the payment of salaries which are in accordance with a nationally negotiated scale to staff employed in the school health service. I am sure that local education authorities will lose no time in implementing the recommendations in view of the importance of this service.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many local authorities the new recommendations are not regarded as being any contribution whatever? Is it not time that the right hon. Gentleman did some fundamental thinking on this vital problem?

I cannot understand that. I should like to know of any authority which suggests that this makes no contribution. It is what they have been asking for.

What improvement does the right hon. Gentleman anticipate in the service as a result of these recommendations?

I anticipate that it will be easier to obtain dentists, because the salaries will be far in excess of those paid in the past.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that the London County Council have been paying these rates for many months, or years, and still cannot get more than about half the dentists they need?

That has been part of the problem and it will remain until we get more dentists.

asked the Minister of Education whether he is aware that there is a continuing liability on school teachers to contribute towards their pensions but only an annually renewed liability by the Government to pay those pensions; and whether he will amend the Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1925, so as to put the teachers' benefits on the same footing as their liabilities.

I cannot accept the implication of the first part of the Question. Under the settlement of 1925, teachers acquired a statutory right to the payment of superannuation benefits subject to the provisions of the Act, and I see no reason to modify that settlement in the manner suggested by the hon. Member.

There appears to be some misunderstanding between us. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the provisions of the Act. Does he not recollect that in the First Schedule it specifically says that teachers have no claim to pension as a right? Will he bear in mind that under Section 15 of that Act a fund is set up which really is a purely legal fiction? When the time comes for new educational legislation to be introduced will he bear in mind, among other matters, the necessity to reconsider Section 15 with a view to making it more satisfactory to the teaching profession?

I will look at that matter, but I should not like anybody in the teaching profession to get the impression that their pensions are dependent upon the whim of this House some night.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that schoolmasters who are now Members of Parliament have no liability in this matter, and will he consider amending Section 15 of the 1925 Act so that schoolmasters who become Members of Parliament, bear liabilities in ratio to their future benefits?

That is another question.

asked the Minister of Education whether he intends to take any steps under Section 68 of the Education Act, 1944, as the result of the policy adopted by the Middlesex Education Authority towards the appointment of Communist teachers.

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 12th April to the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd).

Does the right hon. Gentleman recollect that last week the Home Secretary said that he, the Minister of Education, was considering this matter? I am not pressing him to take action. He has very limited powers under the Act, and I am doubtful whether they would apply to this case, but I am sure it is desirable that the anxiety of people should be relieved and that they should know where they stand. Has anything happened since the speech of the Home Secretary?

No, Sir, he is still considering it.