asked the Minister of Education whether he has considered the objections forwarded to him in connection with the proposal to close the British School, Scarbrook Road, Croydon, at the end of the summer term; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.

Yes, Sir. I have decided to approve the local education authority's proposal to close the school.

Is the Minister aware that his decision will cause great misgivings in Croydon and that this school has a record of 140 years' continuous valuable service to the borough? Will he not reconsider his decision in view of the difficulty of accommodating these pupils without overcrowding in comparable schools in the vicinity?

I have gone into all the circumstances very carefully. Unless something other than what the hon. and gallant Member has just said can be brought to my attention, I cannot see any possibility of reviewing it.

asked the Minister of Education what progress has been made in the provision of the National Ceramic College; how many students are to be catered for; and what arrangements are to be made to link the college with the needs of the industries, science, art and the North Staffordshire University.

I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to the proposal of the local education authority for Stoke-on-Trent to build a new department few ceramics for their technical college. I hope to approve some building for this proposal in the 1952–53 programme. The department is expected to provide for some 300 full-time students for craft training, some 70 full-time advanced students and, in addition, some 300 part-time day students and 400 evening students.

Both sides of industry are, and will be, represented on the governing body of the college, and the local education authority have already discussed their proposals with representatives of industry and of the University College of North Staffordshire.

asked the Minister of Education what steps he is taking to ensure that the numbers of those receiving technological training is sufficient and their training adequate to secure the best results for this country when atomic power is ready for industrial purposes.

Courses in atomic energy engineering are being instituted at certain university institutions. The Atomic Energy Organisation, under my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply, will continue to co-operate with the universities and with my Department in considering what further provision should be made for courses of training such as my hon. Friend has in mind, but it is too soon yet to say what will actually be found practicable or desirable.

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is some uneasiness about this matter? In view of the fact that Britain—Trafford Park and Rugby in particular—led the world in the development and perfection of these processes, and so that we can be ready to launch out on a large scale, will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that the maximum and best possible attention will be given to this matter so that we shall have sufficient men ready for when the launching takes place?

I assure my hon. Friend that those things are being kept in mind.

Is the Minister aware that many people think that at present we are not going forward with technological education? Will he really press forward with it, or does he think that merely to obtain a report from a committee is sufficient?

I think we are pressing forward with it. It does not always follow that what somebody else thinks is the fact is what we are actually doing.

asked the Minister of Education what action he proposes to take to improve facilities for technological education in this country.

I hope that it will soon be possible to make a comprehensive statement on this matter, but I cannot yet add anything to the information given to the House by the Parliamentary Secretary last March.

Will the Minister find it possible, before we rise for the Summer Recess, to make a statement on this matter? Does he realise that we have waited a very long time for some action on his part in regard to the recent report on technological education?

Yes, I will try. I am looking at the matter but a great many bodies have to be consulted on a great many facets of the question and it is much better that we should make a right decision than that we should make a quick decision.

asked the Minister of Education the number of chemical engineers trained with Government assistance in 1946 and 1950; and the number being trained at present.

Twenty-eight students in 1946–47 and 151 students in 1950–51 were following university courses in chemical engineering with the help of awards given directly by my Department.

In view of that fact that in industry it is admitted that there are great possibilities of economic development in electro-chemicals and by-products from them, and in view of our serious economic position, will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that the Ministry will give their maximum attention to the needs of these industries?

I think that the progress that is being made and the numbers quoted show that we are alive to that necessity.

asked the Minister of Education what provision exists in the constitution and rules of the Burnham Committee for the negotiation of fresh wage scales within a period of three years from the last agreement.

It is laid down in Section 89 (1) of the Education Act, 1944. that it shall be the duty of the Committee to submit to me, whenever they think fit or whenever they may be required by me to do so, such scales of remuneration for teachers as they consider suitable.

Is there not something in the rules of the Burnham Committee which prevents fresh recommendations being submitted within three years?

No. There is nothing in the rules which prevents recommendations from coming in if it is decided to make them.

asked the Minister of Education if he will consider increasing the pay of graduate teachers in grammar schools, so that the maximum salaries are comparable with those of similar persons in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

This is a matter which would be for consideration by the Burnham Committee in the first instance. The scales now in force give local education authorities wide discretion to make special allowances to teachers in cases where they deem it to be appropriate to do so.

Is the Minister aware that even that discretion does not permit local authorities to bring the salaries of graduate grammar school teachers up to anything like the amounts in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and that there is great dissatisfaction on this matter?

I am quite aware that the Burnham Committee have known what were the figures in Scotland and Northern Ireland and it is no use to them to be told what the differences are here.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware, as I can tell him as chairman of a grammar school, that it is extremely difficult to get teachers and that the situation has got worse since the Burnham Committee reported because the salaries offered are not comparable with those in other employment?

I would like to know what is the "comparable employment" which it is suggested is in competition with teachers.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if he gives his mind to the matter he will soon find out what is comparable employment?

If it is suggested that industry is comparable I would agree, but if the noble Lord means employment in the teaching profession. I would not agree.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not put the same value on education in England as in Scotland and Northern Ireland?

Of course I do, but in England we have a Burnham Committee and we leave that Committee, which has been carrying on for a number of years, to carry on with this work.

asked the Minister of Education when teachers will receive the salary increases recommended by the Burnham Committee and approved by himself to date from 1st April, 1951.

Adjustments of salary to comply with the new Burnham reports will date from 1st April last. Most teachers will already have received a payment at the increased rate to which they may be entitled, or anyway at a provisional rate, but the new reports call for much detailed work by the local education authorities and precise adjustments may be delayed in some cases.

Will the delay be very long in this case?

No, I do not think so.

asked the Minister of Education if he is satisfied that there are a sufficient number of technical colleges to meet requirements; and whether, in considering increased school accommodation, he will make further provision for these important colleges.

I am certainly not satisfied that there is sufficient technical college accommodation to meet all requirements, and I am, for that reason, pressing forward with a large and increasing programme of new building in this part of the educational field.

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that the recent announcement by the Chancellor will not make the suggestion in the right hon. Gentleman's answer not work out properly?

No, Sir, the programme to which I have referred has already been sanctioned.

asked the Minister of Education how many people over 30 years of age are at present attending technical colleges.

The information is not available since students over 21 years of age are not asked to state their age on admission to establishments of further education.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that quite a large number of older people are taking advantages of these colleges and that it is highly important that as much accommodation as possible should be provided to enable such people still to have an opportunity of improving their technical knowledge?

Yes, but the same colleges are available and for the last date for which figures are available of the more than two million students in institutions giving further education more than half were over 21 years of age.

asked the Minister of Education if he will give an assurance that new secondary schools are not too lavishly equipped as compared with schools generally throughout the country.

Yes, Sir.

Will the Minister do his best in future to see that secondary school equipment is kept down to the Eton and Harrow standard of amenities, in order that the available money can be dispersed over a far larger number of schools? There are two new schools in my county which have the most ridiculous and extravagant equipment.

If the hon. and gallant Member has any particular school in mind I shall be glad to receive details and go into the matter.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in these days of a Labour Government most teachers feel that Eton and Harrow standards are much too low?

Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the teaching at these schools is at least as good as at Eton and Harrow?

If the right hon. Gentleman is in any doubt, will he consult the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury?

asked the Minister of Education how many of the new schools erected since 1945 are single storey and multiple storey, respectively.

I regret that this information is not available. I can say, however, that for various reasons new schools are increasingly being planned to consist of two or more storeys.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make sure that there is no appalling waste of available building land through the construction of more single storey schools?

asked the Minister of Education what was the cost of education per child in elementary schools in the year ended 31st March, 1951; and in the year ended 31st March, 1939.

The estimated cost per pupil (including ancillary services such as school milk and meals, etc.) in maintained primary schools for the year ended 31st March last is about £26. The cost per pupil in public elementary schools in the year ended 31st March, 1938 (the last pre-war year for which statistics are available) was £15 16s. 0d.

Will my right hon. Friend give us the comparable figures for Eton and Harrow?

Could the right hon. Gentleman say what the cost of the etceteras was?

Not without notice.

asked the Minister of Education what sanction is applied if a parent, having signed an agreement to keep a child at a grammar school until 16 years of age, does not fulfil that agreement.

This would be a matter for the local education authority concerned to consider with its own legal advisers, having regard to the terms of the actual agreement.

Since, on 10th May, the right hon. Gentleman told us it was not a matter which could properly be dealt with by legislation, but on 21st June the Parliamentary Secretary said there were nine such private Acts, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether action has ever been taken under any of those Acts and whether it has been effective?

There was only one case, I think in Huddersfield, which was upheld by the court. I do not know what was upheld, but a penalty had to be paid. That is the only case of which we know.

asked the Minister of Education how many vacancies there are at present for assistant school medical officers in County Durham; on what conditions those posts have been offered; and how many applicants there have been for them.

The local education authority have at present vacancies for four assistant school medical officers. So far as my information goes, the conditions attaching to these posts are those stated in the advertisements, namely, three years' experience in practice and the possession of the Diploma of Public Health. One application has been received.

Is it not also included in the advertisement that the salary offered is £150 less than that indicated in the Industrial Court's award in December?

Yes, I think that is true.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the closed shop resolution still applies to the post of assistant school medical officer, in addition to the failure of Durham County Council to implement the award of the Industrial Court?

That was not in the advertisement.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that condition obtains still, or is he going by the advertisement? Is he going to leave the children without medical attention?

I was not asked that question.

If a gentleman appointed to one of these posts was invited to a certain garden party would he have his salary docked if he went?

Very probably.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what discussions have taken place with the Government of Pakistan on the subject of Commonwealth defence.

Defence questions of common concern are under frequent discussion between the United Kingdom and the Pakistan Governments.

Was the Pakistan Government represented at the recent discussions on Commonwealth defence?

No, Sir. I gave an answer on this matter on 7th June which was rather carefully phrased and I hope that the noble Lord will look at that answer.

Yes, but will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking to the House that if the Pakistan Government ask for closer discussion with His Majesty's Government in these matters His Majesty's Government will not give them a refusal on the ground that they are not entering into similar discussions with India?

Yes, certainly, we would welcome closer military association.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will give an assurance that His Majesty's Government has been in the closest touch with the Governments of India, Pakistan and Ceylon during the course of the Persian oil dispute, in view of the economic threat to this part of the British Commonwealth of Nations if there is interference in the supply of oil from Persian sources; and whether he is satisfied that the full benefits accruing from co-operation and united action have been obtained.

We have been in the closest touch with these Governments, who have adopted a very helpful attitude.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that events in Persia constitute the greatest opportunity and challenge that the British Commonwealth of Nations has probably ever had? Are the Government taking every opportunity to develop the unity between the Commonwealth which it should now be showing?

Yes, Sir. We are, of course, in very close touch on this matter with all Commonwealth Governments.

So that proper recognition should be paid to those who have helped, will the right hon. Gentleman let the House know sometime exactly how the Government of India have helped in these difficult troubles?

I should like that question, if it is intended in its full meaning, to be put on the Order Paper. Mr. Nehru and Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan have both sent messages to Dr. Mossadeq urging the need for a peaceful settlement, and those messages have been very helpful.

The Minister said that the Governments of these three countries had adopted a helpful attitude. Has that attitude been identical in each case?

No; helpful but not identical.

Would it not be possible to give greater publicity to the messages which have been sent, so that people may be more fully aware of what the Empire is doing in this matter?

They were, of course, reported in the Press at the time. It is not for us to write to the newspapers.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will announce the names of the hon. Members selected to attend the kgotla being held to consider the future of Tshekedi Khama.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what arrangements have been made for observers to attend the proposed kgotla of the Bamangwato tribe which is to discuss the question of Tshekedi Khama's return to the Bamangwato Reserve.

Since the Opposition parties have been unable to agree that any members of their parties should go to Bechuanaland to attend the proposed kgotla as observers, it has not been possible to arrange a Parliamentary delegation. His Majesty's Government has, therefore, invited Mr. H. L. Bullock, last year's President of the Trades Union Congress; Mr. D. L. Lipson, Member of Gloucestershire County Council and ex-Independent Member of Parliament for Cheltenham; and Professor W. M. Macmillan, Director of Colonial Studies, University of St. Andrews, to go to the Bamangwato Reserve to attend the kgotla which the Government will invite the tribe to hold, and to report on the attitude of the tribe to the question of Tshekedi Khama's return to the Reserve as a private person.

I am glad to say that these invitations have been accepted. The party will leave for the Bechuanaland Protectorate as soon as the necessary arrangements can be made, which should be within a fortnight. Preparations for the kgotla, including the question of Tshekedi Khama's and his followers' attendance, will be discussed with tribal representatives in the Reserve in the presence of the observers immediately after their arrival. The observers have agreed to remain in the Reserve until the kgotla is held.

I should like to ask two questions. First, is it not very surprising that, notwithstanding the repeated pretentions of the Opposition parties to be interested in seeing that justice is done, they should have declined to let anybody be nominated as observers? Second, will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that these independent persons who have accepted invitations to go out will be given the fullest facilities to see that the kgotla is conducted strictly in accordance with native law and custom?

Yes, Sir. I cannot, of course, answer for the Opposition; but I can certainly give an assurance, in reply to the second part of the question, in an unqualified manner.

In view of the acute anxiety on all sides of the House, and outside too, will the Minister see that Tshekedi Khama does get a fair hearing and that he gets what we call a "square deal"? Is it possible for Tshekedi Khama to have someone at the preliminary meeting to see that things are fair and square and to ensure that he does get what we all desire—a fair hearing in the event?

These matters come up in other Questions on the Order Paper, and I would sooner answer them then.

Has not the right hon. Gentleman communicated with Tshekedi Khama's advisers this morning? Does it not amount to the fact that these observers are to go out within a fortnight; that a meeting is then to be held with representatives who, apparently, are the opponents of Tshekedi; that they will decide whether a meeting will be called, when it will be called, how it will be called, whether Tshekedi Khama can return or not return, and whether he will have any freedom or fair play?

Questions about this are also on the Order Paper; but what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said does not represent the facts. When these observers arrive in the Reserve, they will, of course, make a very great difference to the whole situation. There will be these three independent gentlemen there who can watch and satisfy themselves about the fairness of any proceedings. It is, of course, necessary to find some way of discussing with the tribal representatives. The preliminary meeting for holding the kgotla will be as representative as possible. There is no other way of holding a kgotla. The observers will be present and all discussions will be with representatives. The advice and views of the observers will be very important.

As the right hon. Gentleman also referred to the attitude of the Opposition in regard to the sending of observers, is he not aware that there is a widespread fear that the case may be prejudiced in advance, and that it seemed to many of us that an essential prerequisite, before observers should be agreed on, should be an assurance that the kgotla would be convened and conducted according to native custom?

No such proposals were made, I think, by the Opposition parties.

Why does not my right hon. Friend call upon the resources of another place to get people who have Parliamentary prestige behind them?

Naturally, in consultation with my colleagues, I have given great attention to what I thought would be the best deputation—the best party of observers. I think that these three gentlemen are extremely good. They represent different sections of our society and different sorts of knowledge. I think that it would be very difficult to find a better three.

May I ask whether the first part of the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) did not contain imputations against the motives of the Opposition parties? May I ask whether that was in order?

Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that these three independent observers will be accorded the same degree of freedom and independence to make a full report in public—to the House if necessary—as independent Members of Parliament would have?

Yes, Sir. They are going out to form their own views on the views of the tribe on the question of Tshekedi Khama's return as a private individual. On that matter they will have absolute and full liberty to report. I shall, naturally, make their report known to the House.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations who will preside at the proposed Bamangwato kgotla to be called in connection with Tshekedi Khama; and what steps have been taken to ensure a fair hearing for all points of view.

This is one of the questions that can only be settled after the arrival of the party of observers in the Reserve and in consultation with representatives of the inhabitants in their presence. Every endeavour will be made by discussion with tribal representatives to secure as president an impartial person whose appointment will reasonably accord with established custom.

I have instructed the High Commissioner and his officers to take all posible steps to ensure a fair hearing at the proposed kgotla for all points of view.

When the right hon. Gentleman says that all possible steps will be taken to secure a fair hearing, and so on, is he making that a condition of the holding of a kgotla and does he intend to watch this matter very closely himself to make certain that no unfair kgotla is called together?

The phrase "all possible steps" means using all necessary police power, and so forth, to make sure that there is no intimidation. From this end I cannot, of course, determine every detail in these matters without taking into account all the views expressed out there: but every possible step will be taken to secure a fair hearing for all sides.

Does my right hon. Friend consider that it is fair that the arrangements for this very important meeting should be made, as far as native opinion is concerned, exclusively with those who are well known to be traditional opponents of Tshekedi Khama? Cannot my right hon. Friend arrange that Tshekedi Khama himself, or his accredited representative, should take part in this preliminary discussion, which will settle the fate of this person? If it is not possible for this to be done in Serowe, would he consider the suggestion that a preliminary meeting might be held in Mafeking, which is outside the present region of disturbance, and where Tshekedi Khama might himself take part in the discussions?

I think this question is one of those which I cannot absolutely settle just by decision at this end, but I think it would be right that Tshekedi's representative should be present at these discussions, and that view, which is the view of the Government, will be conveyed to the tribal leaders. I have considered, I am considering and will continue to consider, alternative arrangements for a meeting at Mafeking or Serowe or anywhere else.

If the tribal leaders do not consent, apparently Tshekedi Khama will not be allowed to be present. Is that so?

That is not what I have said.

Can the Minister say, approximately, how many days would elapse between the arrival of the three independent people and the holding of this meeting? I think the Minister said, earlier, "almost immediately," which means that there would be no chance of making sure that the arrangements were going forward fairly.

A lot of these supplementary questions are covered by later Questions on the Order Paper, and I would prefer to answer them then.

I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that it is the desire of the House that this matter should be conducted as fairly as possible. How can it be left to local arrangements to ensure that, without Tshekedi Khama himself taking part in making the preliminary arrangements, because it is upon that that a free decision really depends?

I did not say that it would be left to local arrangements. I said that I could not, here and now, agree to local arrangements without taking account at all of the views expressed. It must be remembered that the independent observers will themselves be present, and will have to satisfy themselves that any measures taken or any steps proposed are, in their view, fair and proper. Therefore, the situation will be greatly altered by the presence of these observers.

Could the right hon. Gentleman say to whom these observers will actually report—to the House or to the Government?

They will report to me, and I will convey their views to this House.

In addition to the observers, could my right hon. Friend say whether it will be possible for Tshekedi Khama to be accompanied by the Rev. Michael Scott, who has been advising him?

I do not think that that is a question for me to answer.

Is it not a fact that Tshekedi Khama's case is already prejudiced? What is the use of holding the kgotla at all? Has not his case been prejudiced by the correspondence which has taken place?

May I ask the Minister under whose authority this kgotla is to be convened—himself, the District Commissioner or the tribal leaders?

It will be convened by the District Commissioner, who is the native authority in a technical sense.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations on what date Tshekedi Khama may return to the Bamangwato Reserve.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what reply he has returned to the representations made to him by Tshekedi Khama concerning the arrangements for the forthcoming kgotla and the alleged attempts to prejudice the question of his banishment.

I have notified Tshekedi Khama that arrangements for the kgotla that the Government will invite the Bamangwato people to hold, including the question of his entry into the Reserve and attendance at the kgotla, will be discussed with tribal representatives as soon as the observers from the United Kingdom have arrived in the Reserve, in about a fortnight's time.

I have advised Tshekedi Khama, and will inform tribal representatives, that the Government's intention is that during the period from the date on which a decision is taken to hold a kgotla, attended by him, Until the date on which the kgotla is held, he should be at liberty to be in the Reserve. His representations about the interval which should elapse between these two dates will be carefully considered and made known to the observers. I have suggested to Tshekedi Khama that, to avoid any subsequent delay, he would be well advised to be in the Protectorate at about the same time as the observers arrive there, and the cost of his return journey will be met by the Government, as arranged before he came to London.

I have also informed him that the Protectorate Administration has made and will make clear that the sole purpose of the proposed kgotla will be to determine the views of the tribe on the question of his return to the Bamangwato Reserve as a private person who has renounced all claim to the chieftainship.

As to the difference of time which will elapse between the time that a decision is made and the actual holding of the kgotla, is that not a matter in which the right hon. Gentleman must reserve to himself the ultimate responsibility for seeing that there is complete fairness? Is it not clear, from reports reaching this country from time to time, that, in the absence of Tshekedi Khama, it is very unlikely that he will ever be able to put his case properly?

The responsibility, of course, rests with me, but I shall be guided in this matter by the views of the observers.

As the right hon. Gentleman quite rightly says, the responsibility eventually rests with him. Is it a fact that, at recent official kgotlas held at Serowe and at another place, it was said that Tshekedi Khama was returning to claim the chieftainship? If so, will the right hon. Gentleman deny the accuracy of the statements, made, I am afraid, on his behalf?

The hon. Member is totally misinformed. There have been no formal kgotlas. This remark is said to have been made by members present at the kgotla, but certainly not by any Government official. It is not for me, and I do not think it will be suggested that it is for me, to dictate to people what they should or should not say at kgotlas. I am not prepared to deny that remark, but will deny that it was said by the Government or anybody representing them. It was a remark made just as anybody in this House can say what he likes, whether it is true or not.

Will my right hon. Friend explain to the House exactly what steps the Administration have taken to make it clear that Tshekedi Khama had renounced the chieftainship and was returning as a private person? What steps have been taken to dissipate these continuous rumours?

To give a complete answer to that question I should like to see it on the Order Paper. It was made clear at the original kgotla, at which the Government decision about Tshekedi Khama was announced, and it has been made clear to tribal representatives quite recently, and I specified—

I wish to know precisely, because I have been accused of giving inaccurate information last Tuesday.

It has also been said here by myself, on a number of occasions.

In view of the great interest shown by both sides of the House in this matter, would the right hon. Gentleman consider publishing a White Paper for the information of hon. Members showing the respective political back- grounds of the pro and anti-Tshekedi parties? It would be of great value to the House.

I will certainly consider that, but it is important that we should do nothing that would prejudice the outcome.

Was my right hon. Friend quite right when he said that the expenses of Tshekedi Khama in going back to Bechuanaland from this country would be borne by the Government?

I said that the cost of the return journey will be paid by the Government, just as his expenses in coming here were paid by the Government.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that the offer he has made in his letter to Tshekedi Khama is not in accordance with the statement he made in the House during the debate on this matter?

I think it is exactly in accordance.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what date has been fixed for the kgotla at which Tshekedi Khama is to attend.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he can now announce arrangements for the kgotla which is to consider the return of Tshekedi Khama.

When the party of observers from this country arrives in Serowe, discussions will be held with tribal representatives in their presence about detailed arrangements, including the date, for the kgotla which the Government is inviting the Bamangwato Tribe to hold. I am afraid that I cannot, at this stage, give further details about the arrangements for the kgotla. I must await the outcome of these discussions and the views of the observers.

It will be made clear to tribal representatives that it is the Government's desire that a kgotla shall be held which Tshekedi Khama and his followers shall attend. I hope that the kgotla can be assembled within about three weeks of a decision to summon it.

On a point of order. As it seems to me quite clear that we cannot adequately discuss this important matter by means of Question and answer, I beg to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House in order to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the acts of violence now taking place in Bechuanaland, and their connection with the proposals for the return of Tshekedi Khama?

We cannot do that now. One has to wait until the end of Questions before one can submit a Motion of that kind.

Would the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that, among the arrangements for the kgotla will be included arrangements for Tshekedi Khama and his supporters to be present in good time to organise and arrange this election? Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that he would think it very unfair if, at his own election, he only was to be excluded from all the preparations that take place a few weeks in advance of the election date?

This is not an election, of course, but it will be made absolutely clear that the Government's view is that Tshekedi Khama should be present at the kgotla. I did indicate, in answer to earlier Questions, that it is our intention that he should enter the Reserve directly the decision to call the kgotla had been taken, and should remain there until the kgotla took place

And his followers?

Yes.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in connection with the arrangements which he has already announced, to the effect that the cost of the return journey to Bechuanaland will be paid, will not that be prejudiced if there be a return journey to Bechuanaland and back again to London? Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that, or only the return journey in the ordinary sense?

I mean the return journey to the Protectorate, which is what I arranged with Tshekedi Khama before he came over here.

Seeing that this kgotla is to be held in order that Tshekedi Khama can be present, is it not rather unfair to make him pay for the journey back to this country if he wants to come here?

It was eight or more weeks ago when I first made this arrangement, and it was agreed that we should pay his passage to this country and his passage back if he wanted to go gack. I am merely carrying out that promise.

May we take it that the observers will have the services of an official interpreter from the moment of their arrival, because I do not think that any of them know the language?

Yes, of course.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations under what authority recent meetings of Bamangwato tribesmen have taken place to discuss the return home of Tshekedi Khama.

No special authority is required for the holding of informal meetings by any persons who so desire to discuss current affairs in the Bamangwato Reserve. It is customary amongst the Bamangwato and other tribes of the Bechuanaland Protectorate for leading people to meet daily on the kgotla ground to discuss current affairs of interest to them. Any member of the tribe may attend such informal meetings.

Although such meetings are often described as being "in kgotla" in the sense that they are held on the kgotla ground, they must be distinguished from the assembly of the whole tribe in formal kgotla which under present circumstances requires the authority of the Resident Commissioner. A formal kgotla is normally called to discuss a particular subject. The Government's duty is, while maintaining peace and good order, to ensure full liberty of expression for all views.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that however pertinent that may be to other discussions, it can hardly be considered a satisfactory description of the meeting on 5th July, 1951, which Tshekedi Khama described as a chiefs' kgotla and an official assembly in the official place, and not a mere casual meeting over which the District Commissioner might not have had jurisdiction?

It was not an official meeting although it was held in an official place. Meetings are held daily in the kgotla, which is like the village green. People go there and talk. It was in no sense an official meeting, which has to be summoned by the native authority.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's answers, I beg to give you notice, Mr. Speaker, that at the end of Questions I shall ask your permission to move the adjournment of the House so that we may discuss this matter further.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many applications are before him for increases in the price of utility goods.

Twenty-eight applications for increases in the price of utility goods are at present being considered in my Department.

When does the right hon. and learned Gentleman expect the fall in world prices of raw materials to be reflected in lower prices of utility goods? When that comes about, will he see that the same publicity is given to lower prices as has been given to the continued increases?

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his suggestion. I will certainly do my best to see that due publicity is given to the reverse movement which, I hope, will take place shortly, although I would not like to fix a specific date. The trend now is for world prices of raw materials to come down again, and I hope that it will shortly be reflected in costs.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend give an assurance that he will make a most vigorous examination of costs of production before he permits a further increase in prices?

Yes, I readily give that assurance. That is the practice at present. We have a most careful costing investigation.

Can the Minister say whether any of these increases affect the eight related schedues which we shall be discussing on the Prayer tonight? Are there going to be any differences, because, if we are to discuss the matter tonight, it would be useful to know whether these are out of date or not?

We must wait and see.

Is it not a fact that there is very serious doubt in the minds of many people, not only about the wisdom, but also the justice of some of the recent increases in maximum prices allowed by the Board of Trade? Should not there be, if possible, a more rigorous examination of this matter before more prices are allowed to be increased?

This is a matter which I have now under the closest personal review. I do not think it is at all right to say that any prices have been permitted to be increased without a very careful examination by accountants. Whether that examination could be made more stringent than at present is one of the matters I am considering.

Will the Minister make it clear that these are maximum or ceiling prices and that some utility goods have been and are being sold very much below the maximum prices agreed between his Department and the interests concerned?

Yes, that is true. The prices fixed are maximum prices, but in a great many cases goods are being sold below those prices.

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman make it quite clear to the House that the manufacturers of utility goods would welcome any rigorous examination of their costings provided he would also apply the same rigorous examination to the higher costs charged by nationalised industries?

Would my right hon. and learned Friend undertake to publish in a White Paper, or place in the Library, a list of the places at which utility goods can be bought at less than the maximum prices?

At any shop in London.

If my hon. Friend will go to any boot shop in London he will find that is so.

asked the President of the Board of Trade on what date the s.s. "Ben Voriich" sailed from London docks in June; what was the destination of the ship; and what licences were granted for shipment of heavy-duty tyres on this ship.

The s.s. "Ben Voriich" sailed from London Docks on 22nd June for Port Said, Singapore, Hong Kong, Manila and Cuba. The only heavy duty tyres that are known to have been exported on this ship were destined for Hong Kong, but as shipment was made prior to 25th June, no licence was required for export to this destination.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will adjust the rates of preference on Jamaican cigars in order to safeguard the interests of the colonial producers.

An increase in the rate of preference, which is presumably what the hon. Member has in mind, would be contrary to our obligations under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.

What is the justification for having signed an agreement on tariffs which makes such an adjustment impossible for the benefit of our own Colonies? Also, what is the justification for importing Cuban cigars, presumably for dollars, when Empire cigars are available?

Both those questions are really different from the one on the Order Paper in the hon. Member's name. This, of course, was only one element in a multilateral tariff bargain which was initiated with other countries, and which, on balance, we considered procured considerable advantages for this country as a great exporting nation. That General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade was fully debated and approved by the House several years ago. The question of the importation of cigars is a matter which is still the subject of negotiations.

As the Question relates to the rates of preference on Jamaican cigars, may I ask whether it is not a fact that the rate of preference before the war was 23 per cent. and is now only a little over 4 per cent.? As the duty of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's Department is to promote trade, does that not also extend to the trade of the British Colonies?

It is certainly the desire and intention of my Department to promote trade between the different sections of the Commonwealth to the fullest possible extent, but it must be remembered that the Commonwealth is not entirely self-supporting. We also have to develop our export trade, and that is a consideration to which I cannot close my eyes.

When Columbus went to the West Indies, he found the aborigines enjoying these cigars, and they are still as good as ever. Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that 13,000 people are employed in Jamaica in the making of these cigars which is equivalent to 468,000 people working in the cotton industry in this country? Many women are employed in these cigar factories, and it is an industry which is vital to their economy. Will my right hon. and learned Friend please look at this matter again?

This subject has been under very careful consideration for a time long preceding that when I was appointed to my present office. It is a little idle to ask me to look at it again because I have been looking at it continually for the last three months. But, as I have said, the consideration to which I have to have regard is the necessity for increasing the export trade of this country, particularly to the dollar countries.

Stand up for the Empire.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the quantity and value of Cuban cigars which he proposes allowing into this country under the Cuban trade agreement.

The question of a trade agreement under which a limited quantity of Cuban cigars might be imported into this country is at present under discussion with the Government of Cuba. It would not be useful for me to indicate the details whilst these negotiations are going on, but if a trade agreement is concluded I shall obviously inform the House of the details.

Is the Minister not aware that the importation of any Cuban cigars at all is certain to mean further factories closing in Jamaica and more unemployment in that Colony? Is it not Government policy to help the Colonies? If so, how can they reconcile such a policy with importing Cuban cigars under any agreement?

It is quite impossible to consider the problem of Cuban and Jamaican cigars in isolation. One has to look at the whole picture of our commercial relations and our exports to and imports from different countries of the world. I can assure the hon. Member that we shall conclude no agreement with regard to this matter unless we think that, on balance, it is to the advantage of this country, our Colonies and the Commonwealth.

While preserving the most advantageous preference and improving it for Jamaican cigars, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that no cigar in the world is as good as the Havana cigar, that this art should not be lost and that Havana cigars ought to come here to compete with Jamaican cigars and keep them up to scratch?

I am able to take an objective position in this matter because I do not smoke either Cuban or Jamaican cigars. The question I have to consider is whether we are to have permanently and for ever a ban on the importation of cigars from all other countries but Jamaica.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the Economic Commission of the European League for Economic Co-operation has recommended that the most-favoured-nation clause should cease to be applied in commercial treaties; and if His Majesty's Government will adopt this recommendation.

I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the proposal contained in the pamphlet dated 28th April, 1951, entitled "Observations of the Economic Commission of the European League of Economic Co-operation on the British Section's Preliminary Report on Trade Relations between the Commonwealth and Europe." This proposal was, I understand, further considered at the conference convened by the League at Brussels at the beginning of June last but was not entirely endorsed by that body.

The most-favoured-nation principle, as it is embodied in the commercial treaties and agreements to which this country is a party, has been and continues to be of great assistance to our export trade and accordingly His Majesty's Government are not prepared to abandon it.

Is it not a fact that the most-favoured-nation clause is sometimes a great hindrance to the reduction of tariffs. Would it not be much better to clear it out of the way, and allow countries to make reciprocal arrangements with one another?

No, Sir. I think our general export policy has been assisted by the maintenance of the most-favoured-nation provisions in the commercial treaties into which we have entered. It must be remembered, of course, that the provision with regard to most-favoured-nation treatment is always conditional upon the maintenance of rates of Imperial Preference.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that a declaration has just been received in the London market covering a fresh amount of rubber shipments to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics of £3,000,000; and, in view of his decision two months ago to stop such shipments why this further shipment was permitted.

There has been no decision to stop exports of rubber to Russia. These exports are, however, subject to export control and we are watching them closely. The guiding principles of our policy in this have regard to what we obtain in return for such exports and to the importance of keeping the latter at a figure which corresponds to normal exports in past years. Exports of rubber to Russia for the first five months of this year from the United Kingdom and Malaya together are so far much less than for the same period last year.

Why export any rubber at all to a country which is trying to crush us? Will the Government prove clearly that they will do something really serious to uphold prestige and safety of our country? Will they realise that it is deeds and not words that we want?

The safety and prestige of our country in part depend on our economic stability. One-third of the coarse grains required for our agricultural industry and one-fifth of the timber required for our housing and re-armament programmes are imported from Russia. We have to take these matters into consideration in deciding what we export in return.

Can the Minister say to what extent the export of rubber to the Soviet Union has increased since exports to China have been prohibited?

They have not increased. In fact, the rate of export at the moment is less than it was last year when, of course, exports to China were not prohibited. We are watching that aspect of the matter and we do not intend to see them increase.