asked the Minister of Labour when his Department will be building in Brighton a Remploy factory to provide sheltered employment for the severely disabled.

I cannot at present say when Remploy Ltd. is likely to be in a position to build a factory at Brighton.

Is the Minister aware of the terrible psychological effect on these severely disabled men of years of enforced unemployment, some of whom are getting to the stage where they regard themselves as unemployable, and will he do everything he can with the Treasury and his own Department to ensure that a Remploy factory is built in Brighton at the earliest possible date?

The hope to build a Remploy factory in Brighton is based on the fact that it is high in the list, but I should be less than frank if I did not say that one of the difficulties about Remploy Ltd. is that it appeared to my predecessors, as it appears to me, that they have gone rather fast in the number of factories built, and they have to consolidate the position before they can build any more.

asked the Minister of Labour if he has now had time to study the Report issued last year on Night Baking; and what action he proposes to take.

I have personally studied the Report of the Rees Committee on Night Baking, and I hope to make an announcement on the subject shortly.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, following the decision of this House on the subject of equal pay in the Civil Service and localauthority service, he will now promote discussion by the National Joint Advisory Council with a view to early application of the principle in industry generally.

As the hon. Member knows the responsibility for determining wages and conditions of employment in industry, including the application of the principle of equal pay, rests with the negotiating bodies in each industry. I do not think, therefore, that it is necessary for me to arrange for a discussion by the National Joint Advisory Council.

In view of the need to match any increase in administrative costs with an increase in production, will the Minister give every encouragement to those employed in productive industry?

I hope to give encouragement to all employed in such industries, but I cannot answer the Question put to me otherwise than in the way I have.

If the Minister is not prepared to take the initiative in this, then he is only letting the cart go before the horse, which will certainly be dangerous.

I have so far learned that the horse, consisting of the employers and trade unions, has led the cart on better than I can push it.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of registered unemployed in Cardiff at the most convenient recent date.

Two thousand, four hundred and twenty-two at 12th May.

Is the Minister aware of the concern felt in Cardiff at the danger that several hundred furniture trade employees will be added to this list, and say whether he is taking action now to deal with that danger which has been brought to his notice?

I have in mind very much the question of the furniture employees there, but the situation has not deteriorated very much from the figures I have given. I think the figure on 21st May, 1951, was also over 2,000.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the national importance of increasing the supply of highly skilled craftsmen and highly qualified technicians, he will consider publishing annually, in co-operation with the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Education, a fuller and more comprehensive report on the practical and theoretical training of young people in their early years in industry than is at present available.

To produce a comprehensive report on this subject it would be necessary to make a detailed enquiry throughout industry, and in present circumstances I do not think I should be justified in undertaking an inquiry on this extensive scale. I agree that the subject is of great importance, and it may be possible to consider the suggestion of the hon. Member at some future date.

I am grateful for the the last part of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's answer. Will he bear in mind that this is one of the parts of our general manpower problem about which we know very little, comparatively speaking, and that it is really extremely important? Will he also bear in mind that a considerable number of interesting and useful experiments are being made at the instance of enlightened firms, which it would be all to the good to have widely discussed throughout the country?

It was precisely those facts, and others like them, which made me sympathetic to the suggestion of the hon. Member, but he will find that it would not be my Department only but employers and trade unions also who would have to do the work.

asked the Minister of Labour how many of the 36 stoppages in 1951 among workers transporting goods by road, were among workers employed by the Road Haulage Executive; and what were the causes.

Workers employed by the Road Haulage Executive were involved in 35 of the 36 stoppages of work in 1951 caused by industrial disputes in undertakings engaged in the road transport of goods. Eight of these stoppages arose out of disputes on matters concerning wages, two on questions concerning hours of work, 10 on questions concerning the employment of particular classes of workers or particular individuals, and 12 on other matters concerned with working arrangements. The remaining three stoppages were in support of workers involved in other disputes.

Would I be right in assuming from that answer that the employees of the Road Haulage Executive have not been quite as contented as has been represented by Socialist propaganda of the last few weeks?

asked the Minister of Labour what were the number of vacancies notified to employment exchanges and remaining unfilled for every 100 persons registered as unemployed in Great Britain at March in each of the following years: 1946, 1947, 1948, 1951 and 1952.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) on 24th April.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to overcome the shortage of apprentices in the building trades.

Information about the careers offered by the building trades is made generally available to suitable boys in the course of vocational guidance given through the Youth Employment Service, and vacancies notified to the Service for apprentices in these trades are brought to the notice of all such boys who are likely to be interested in them.

Is the Minister aware that a critical situation is now developing in this matter, that only about 25 per cent. of the required number of apprentices are coming into the building industry, and that in London alone we need 4,000 apprentices a year? This is causing great anxiety both to the employers and to the trade unions concerned.

I understand from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Works that an intake of 22,000 apprentices a year is necessary, that the current intake is only about 18,500, and that the matter has been referred to the National Joint Council, which is concerned with it.

asked the Minister of Labour how it is proposed to carry on the work done by appointments boards in areas in which the boards offices are to be closed.

Applicants are being advised to register with one of the three remaining appointments offices at London, Manchester and Glasgow, and vacancies notified by employers will be transferred to the appropriate remaining appointments office.

In view of the great importance of making the best use of our trained brain power, is the Minister satisfied that with only three offices open facilities are adequate to continue the very valuable work which has been done in this matter?

In addition to keeping these offices open, we attempt to deal with professional and executive applicants in another way, too. Advice interviews and the placing of trainee executives on a more local basis will be carried out at employment centres such as Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff, Leeds, Newcastle and Nottingham, and we hope that that will be sufficient to maintain the value of the service.

Is it not possible for these people to make use of the local employment exchanges in the first place?

It is the local employment exchanges to which I was referring and which will give these advice interviews.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the rising unemployment in the United Kingdom, he will take steps to facilitate emigration of suitable people to the Commonwealth; and to stop all further immigration of foreign workers into this country.

I do not think that any special steps are necessary. Facilities exist for emigration to the Commonwealth, towards which Her Majesty's Government contributes.

In view of the fact that we grow only about half the food needed to feed our people, and that we are going to find it more difficult to buy food abroad, would the Minister not agree that everything possible should be taken to encourage men to go to the Commonwealth who so desire?

So far as my Department is concerned, quite apart from the contribution towards assisted passages to Australia, we offer our services to those members of the Commonwealth who want such labour by recruitment publicity.

Are we to understand from those answers that there are still people so misguided that they wish to leave this country even with the present Government in power?

Hard though it may be to believe it, it is pleasant to recollect that a great many people want to move about in the family of nations to which we belong.

In view of the importance of this matter, will my right hon. and learned Friend impress upon his right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary the importance of setting up again the Overseas Settlement Board which was in operation up to 1938, and, when he does set it up, see that it is composed of people who will deal with planned migration?

Is the Minister aware that if this Government is much longer in power we shall have the same forced emigration as we bad between the wars, and that those who will emigrate will certainly not be the friends of the hon. Member who put down the Question?

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will give an assurance that the cost of bringing miners from abroad and any other expenses caused by the operations of the National Coal Board will, in future, be debited to the Board and not, like the cost of bringing miners from Italy, paid by the taxpayer.

There is no present intention of bringing more miners from abroad at Government expense. I am not in a position to enter into commitments about the cost of any such recruitment which may take place in the future.

But has not the commitment already been entered into by the previous Government at the time of nationalisation, when we were all assured—before my right hon. and learned Friend was a Member of the House—that no part of the cost of winning coal would be defrayed by the taxpayer? Why is the present Government not sticking to that?

The Question asked about our intentions for the future. I have said I cannot commit myself as to the future. For the present I am saying that there is no intention of recruiting further.

asked the Minister of Health if the detailed investigation has yet been completed in respect of the proposal of the South-West Metropolitan Regional Board to spend 21s. a week on feeding each patient and a maximum of 14s. a week on each mental patient, and with what result.

Progress has been made in the collection of the necessary information, but the assessment of results will take some time yet.

Does the Minister not appreciate that the proposal was made in February and that his predecessor said during the first week in March that he was looking into it? How long is it to take? Is he not aware that the catering officer said that 21s. would not allow them to supply anything more substantial than fish cakes? In view of the increased cost of living can the Minister say when a decision is to be made? These people may be mentally sick, but there is nothing wrong with their appetites.

As I am sure the hon. Member knows, comparative costing, which has been a very neglected part of the Health Service, takes a very long time to be efficient. The preliminary information will be available within a few days, but the assessment does take some time.

Does the Minister not agree that it is wrong for regional boards to attempt to impose maximum costs of this kind, which should be left to the decision of the hospital management committees who know the position of the local hospitals much more intimately?

This is not by any means wholly a measure of economy. Where it is found that a hospital's feeding is below standard the board is taking steps to raise it

asked the Minister of Health to what extent facilities are available in York for giving deep X-ray treatment, or how soon it is hoped that they will be made available.

There are, at present, no facilities for this treatment in York, but it is the policy of the Leeds Regional Hospital Board to develop a full radiological service there. The equipment has already been procured and the Board are shortly to decide when they will be able to install and operate it.

Will my right hon Friend remember that this kind of treatment can be very punishing to the patient and that it is dreadful for the patient to have to travel 20 miles or more after treatment?

Yes, Sir. The equipment has become available rather sooner than was expected, and the committee dealing with this matter is meeting on 19th June.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will take steps to alter the name of the Royal Cancer Hospital and of any other hospitals under his control, whose names have an alarming effect upon the patients.

I am prepared to consider any proposal for a change of name put forward by the board of governors of this or any other teaching hospital. Regional hospital boards may, in consultation with the management committees concerned, make such changes in the names of non-teaching hospitals as they think fit.

Could the Minster go a little bit further and make a suggestion to the board of the Royal Cancer Hospital that such a change might be desirable?

Yes, and no. The initiative rests, so far as teaching hospitals are concerned, very properly with them, but it is true that the board of governors are considering this matter at the moment and it is probable that a formal approach will be made to my Department.

asked the Minister of Health whether any decision has yet been taken regarding the opening of the Park Hospital, Newsham Park, Liverpool; and when it is intended to proceed to make available this accommodation for aged and chronic sick, so badly needed in Liverpool.

Plans for this hospital have been approved, and tenders are awaited. It is not yet possible to indicate a date at which the accommodation will become available.

Is the Minister aware that the starting date of 1st January, 1953, is far too distant and that we were without this accommodation in Liverpool all last winter, when it was most necessary? Judging from the date which has been given by his Department we shall be without the accommodation in the coming winter. Will he have another look at the matter and to see whether an earlier date can be agreed?

I shall be glad to look at it again, but my information is rather different. A starting date cannot be agreed until tenders have been received and Treasury approval obtained.

Will the right hon. Gentleman look at it again, because my information is as I have stated?

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that, although a considerable quantity of the steel required for the aged persons hostel at Beechley, Harthill Road, Liverpool, has been delivered to provide adequate central heating, an authorisation for three tons of steel to complete the work has been refused by his regional office in Manchester, and that the radiators are therefore useless; and if he will have the matter considered immediately, in view of the fact that approval to proceed with this much needed place was given on 16th April, 1951.

I regret that the steel available for schemes for providing accommodation under the National Assistance Acts is insufficient to enable me to authorise the acquisition of any for this hostel at present.

Will the Minister look at this matter again? Is he aware that the position is that the first part of this scheme was sanctioned in April, 1951, and that the radiators and boilers and part of the works are already in; that three tons of steel is needed to link them up so that heat can be provided; that on 29th March Manchester refused the allocation of steel but in May of this year the second part of the scheme was sanctioned to be proceeded with and that it is no use proceeding unless heating arrangements are there? It is silly and requires investigation.

In these local matters I have to rely on the advice of the local region and I am informed that Beechley itself has been brought in partial use. I am also informed that, although this is an immensely desirable project, the limitation of steel is such that there are, in fact, others with a slightly higher priority.

It is such a waste of money.

asked the Minister of Health what steps are being taken to remedy the shortage of accommodation for mental defectives in the North-East Metropolitan Hospital Region.

Two villas are being erected at South Ockendon Hospital and two properties have been purchased for adaptation. When completed, these schemes will provide 127 additional beds.

May I thank my right hon. Friend for that good news, which will do something to mitigate this very distressing situation? Is he aware, however, that the position has deteriorated since the beginning of the year? Can he say when the additional accommodation may become available?

I regard this problem as one of the most tragic and difficult in the entire National Health Service and, of course, it is not a local one in any way. So far as the immediate question is concerned, I am told that these villas are 25 per cent. complete and I will let my hon. Friend know when they are completed.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give some consideration to the proposals submitted to the Central Health Services Council by the Institute of Social Psychiatry—proposals designed to relieve this very tragic congestion which occurs in all regions?

Yes, Sir, my predecessor has started a fairly full inquiry into the whole matter in the whole of the country and replies to our questionnaire are coming in now from regional hospital boards.

asked the Minister of Health if he will introduce legislation to make it compulsory for pharmaceutical firms to state the price of their products when advertising drugs and medicines to medical practitioners.

While I agree that it is most desirable that doctors in the National Health Service should know these prices, I am not yet clear that the imposing of a requirement to state them in advertisements is a suitable subject for legislation, but I should like to think further about the matter.

Is the Minister aware that the medical profession is being inundated with literature from drug manufacturers advertising proprietary preparations, and that colourful, enticing advertisements, such as these which I have in my hand, tell the doctor all about the preparations except the price? Doctors are being persuaded to prescribe drugs without knowing the cost that will fall upon the National Health Service.

As I think I indicated, I am not in the least unsympathetic to the idea behind the Question, but I was asked about legislation. As my answer shows, we have been looking into that, but there are certain technical difficulties in the matter.

asked the Minister of Health what restrictions are placed by his regulations upon medical practitioners in the matter of prescribing drugs and medicines for their patients.

None; but if the cost of a doctor's prescribing is found to be more than was reasonably necessary an appropriate sum of money may be withheld from his remuneration.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will instruct executive committees to compare the average cost of each doctor's prescriptions with the average cost over the country as a whole, and that this matter will be watched at least as carefully as it was under the National Health Insurance Scheme?

I was this morning looking at my pricing investigation unit in the Ministry of Health, but the hon. Member, who is himself a doctor, knows that the great difficulty is that pricing itself is 10 months in arrears. We are trying to get on as fast as we can with the idea that the hon. Member has in mind.

asked the Minister of Health whether to avoid unnecessary expenditure, he will advise medical practitioners in the National Health Service, when prescribing proprietary drugs or medicines, to add the letters N.F.E., so that the pharmacist can supply the equivalent according to the National Formulary.

No, Sir. I think that responsibility for specifying the exact substance to be supplied should rest with the prescriber.

Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been drawn to the last Report of the General Medical Services Committee in which they say that this suggestion—which, of course, is not my own—was turned down because there were seriously legal objections to carrying it out? Apparently, the Committee thought it a desirable suggestion which would lead to economy. If there are legal obstacles could not the right hon. Gentleman remove them by legislation?

The proposal has come up many times and I have no doubt that it came up when the right hon. Gentleman was the Minister, but the proposal has not come from the B.M.A. or the chemists themselves and the chemists feel it is putting a responsibility on their shoulders which should not properly be theirs. I understand that there are legal difficulties. I do not know the precise details, but I understand that the law of copyright enters into the question of substituting one preparation for another.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say why the Government, who are so keen on monetary deterrents so far as patients are concerned, are not prepared to take this step, so that medical practitioners shall prescribe goods which are cheaper but equally good for patients?

As I have explained, in my view and in the view of the two professions most intimately concerned, it is a burden which should not properly be placed on the shoulders of the pharmacists.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Attorney-General about this matter, because I do not understand the legal implications and his reference to copyright?

As I understand, the legal implications are the substituting of a preparation for a previously named preparation.

Could not the problem be solved if the doctors themselves, instead of prescribing the proprietary article either with or without these additional letters, prescribed instead the National Formulary equivalent without the patent medicine?

There is a very great deal in that, and I should be delighted to pursue any avenue which will lead to that sort of economy.

Would it not be undesirable that there should be confusion between the general practitioner and the pharmacist as to who, in fact, should prescribe the National Formulary? That might result in greater expenditure than now.

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Health what estimate he has made of the total cost to the taxpayers of removing all charges for drugs, medicines, appliances, dentures, dental treatment and spectacles.

The estimated savings in a full year from the charges authorised by the National Health Service Acts of 1949, 1951 and 1952 are £12 million. £25 million and £7 million, respectively, making a total of £44 million.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the reason I put down this Question was to draw attention to the irresponsible statement which the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand) made on the Third Reading of the National Health Service Bill, when he said that now that his party were out of office they had abandoned the ceiling which they themselves fixed?

That question does not appear to be addressed to me but to the right hon. Gentleman opposite.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend who preceded him as Minister, during the latter stages of the debates which we had on the subject, gave the impression that, for his part, he disliked the charges very much and wished he could get rid of them, whereas the present Minister gave the impression that he liked them very much and wanted to retain them in perpetuity? May we now be told what is the Government's present policy?

That has remarkably little to do with the Question which was put down. The right hon. Gentleman will, no doubt, be interested to calculate that of the £44 million given in the answer, £37 million were implemented under Socialist Acts and £7 million under Conservative Acts.

On a point of order. Having regard to the terms in which the first supplementary question was asked, Sir, indicating that it was asked for an ulterior purpose and not for the purpose of gaining information, is the questioner not guilty of a breach of the rules of the House?

It is impossible for me to know the motive which lies behind hon. Members putting down Questions when they appear on the Order Paper. Questions should be confined to seeking information, and not for purposes of debate. It would save the time of the House a great deal if that rule were more generally observed by hon. Members.

May I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I put down this Question because I thought that the figure which would be given would be of great interest to the House and the country?

Is it not a breach of the rules of the House for an hon. Member to put a Question to a Minister for the alleged purpose of launching an attack on another Member?

It is very unusual, but I have noticed hon. Members on both sides of the House very frequently ask Questions and follow them up with supplementaries which are rather in the nature of debate than seeking further elucidation.

Surely it is within your recollection, Mr. Speaker, that it is the tradition of the House that the purpose of putting down a Question is to ask a supplementary which is not allowed by the Table?

I cannot give any countenance to that interpretation of the rules relating to Questions. I would say again to hon. Members that supplementary questions are bound by the same rules of order as the Questions on the Order Paper. Of course, the Chair is at a great disadvantage because it does not know what the supplementary question is until it is uttered. For the prompt transaction of this part of our business I have to rely on the good sense of hon. Members.

Was not the right hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) the greatest culprit in that respect when he was a back bencher?

asked the Minister of Health what action he has advised hospitals to take in the case of outpatients who are in urgent need of medicine prescribed for them, are required to pay the prescription fee, and have no money with them for this purpose.

I am content to rely on the discretion of hospital authorities in this rare combination of circumstances.

Is the Minister aware that hospitals are already faced with this problem, that some hospital boards are at a loss for a solution and that they will expect something more constructive from the right hon. Gentleman than that reply?

I am reasonably up to date in this and I have been round the hospitals since the appointed day. I have not found these difficulties and I am quite content to rely on the discretion of the hospitals in this matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many cases are already arising—some have arisen in my constituency—in which it is important that some exemption should be given to categories of cases, but that this quite absurd waste of time and difficulty is now taking place?

Does the Minister mean by his reply that the hospitals have discretion to waive this charge?

The hospitals will do everything they can to carry out—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—I am answering —the law. I am quite content to rely on their discretion—[HON. MEMBERS: "They have no discretion"]—if the sort of circumstances mentioned arise in which an out-patient urgently needs medicine and has not the 1s. or has not time to go to the Assistance Board for it.

This is a rather serious matter and I think all hon. Members would like to know what the situation is. Is it a fact, as the right hon. Gentleman appears to have indicated, that the hospital authorities have the right, where they consider there is emergency sickness, to waive the 1s. charge?

It is not a question of waiving the 1s. charge. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that there is an Act of Parliament and it is expected that the Act will be carried out. But it is quite possible to envisage circumstances, not only at the out-patients' department, but at the chemist's as well, in which someone would be in difficulty, just as he or she might be in difficulty at the dentists and, as I have said, I am prepared to rely on the discretion of the hospital.

I think that the right hon. Gentleman is now confusing every one. Will not he reply so that we can be clear about it? Is it merely that the hospital authorities will assist patients to obtain finance from the National Assistance officer or will they have the power to waive the charge itself?

If that sort of circumstance arises, if the hospital deems it necessary that the person who has not 1s. ought to have this treatment or ought to have the medicine necessary, then, I have said, and I say it again, I am quite prepared, in those special circumstances, for the hospital to use its own discretion as to whether he should be asked to get the 1s. or whether he will be supplied with the medicine. Nothing can be clearer than that.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Health the number of persons in Cardiff who have received a free pair of surgical shoes under the National Health Scheme during 1948, 1949, 1950 and 1951, respectively.

The numbers for the respective years were 100, 360, 554 and 491.

asked the Minister of Health the number of persons in Cardiff who have received a free issue of a spinal support, an abdominal belt or elastic stockings, respectively, during each of the years 1950 and 1951.

In 1950 and 1951 respectively, 228 and 166 received spinal supports, 782 and 649 abdominal belts. I regret that complete statistics for elastic stockings are not available.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will make a statement regarding the establishment of a general optical council, following the recommendations of the Inter-Depart mental Committee on the Statutory Registration of Opticians.

The Report of this Committee is still under consideration.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that there are over 700 patients in the south Somerset area awaiting delivery of hearing aids; and if he will take steps to improve the supply of these aids in this area.

Yes, Sir; the supply of aids is now adequate at the Bristol centre, which serves this area, and the rate of distribution to patients has recently increased considerably. The regional board and the board of governors are considering together how the position can be further improved.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the average waiting time for these aids is about three years? Does he not agree that that is excessive?

There has been a very considerable time lag, and of course this part of the country is no exception, but the figures of distribution from Bristol over the last three four-weekly periods were 138, 131 and 171. A year ago they were 72, 76 and 86. That is almost exactly twice as good.

asked the Minister of Health what consultations he has had with representatives of the dental goods industry since 27th March, 1952; and whether he is satisfied that restrictive practices have now been entirely eliminated from this trade.

I have since received a copy of the revised rules of the Association of British Dental Traders, effective from 8th May, 1952, which are now under consideration.

Has the right hon. Gentleman received any representations from the Dental Traders Federation Ltd. alleging that restrictive practices still persist, and if not, will he consider any information which I can send him?

I shall be delighted to consider any such information. The information which I have is that at least in certain respects the supply of dental goods has been a great deal better. But we are not yet satisfied that the new rules to which I have referred completely carry out the obligations placed on this association and that is being looked into.

asked the Minister of Health how many of the cases of disciplinary action taken against dentists related to dentists employed by corporate bodies.

My records give 43 up to 31st May.

In how many of the 43 cases has disciplinary action been taken?

Forty-three cases have been investigated. There are, I think, a total of 200 dentists employed by bodies corporate and 67 of those are employed by the Co-operative Dental Association. Only four of the disciplinary cases referred to apply to them.

I do not think the Minister has understood the Question I was asking, which was how many disciplinary actions have been taken against dentists generally, not against persons employed by corporate bodies?

I am sorry, I thought the hon. Gentleman was referring only to corporate bodies. The number of cases against dentists in private practice is 966.

In view of that very large number of cases, and the very small number of actions against dentists employed by corporate bodies, is it not clear that dentists practising privately are a good deal more culpable than dentists employed by corporate bodies—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, the facts speak for themselves. In these circumstances will not the Minister reconsider his ill-starred Dentists Bill, which is designed specifically to operate against corporate bodies and the appointment of dentists, so far as one can see—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] Is not it the case that corporate bodies in this matter are a good deal more responsible to the public than are private dentists?

It is true that in the relative percentages between the two the point which is made by the hon. Member is perfectly fair. But I do not think it profitable to discuss by Question and answer a Bill which has not yet been given a Second Reading in this House.

asked the Minister of Health to what extent central records of National Registration numbers are being maintained; and what is the cost to public funds.

The question of what central records should be maintained of the identification numbers used in the National Health Service is under consideration.

Does that answer mean that the Minister still retains about 50 million index cards bearing the registration numbers of many people who are now dead? Is not the central index, for that reason, becoming more useless from day to day?

The central index, which is at Southport, is still valuable, especially in view of the purge of doctors' lists which was recently carried out. There is under consideration at the moment between my Department and the Treasury what form it will take in the future, and whether it would be an alphabetical index or not.

Could the Minister answer the last part of the Question? What is the cost to public funds of the maintenance of this organisation, which we thought had disappeared?

It is estimated at £150,000 a year.

asked the Minister of Health whether persons who have no record of their National Registration numbers suffer loss of entitlement to benefits under the National Health Service.

No, Sir, but they may have difficulty in getting accepted for treatment. It is very much in people's own interests that they should record the number on their medical cards if it is not already there.

Is the Minister aware that his predecessor said in the House that patients may have difficulty in getting treatment under the Service if they do not give their numbers. What are those difficulties? Would the Minister please explain?

The difficulties are, for example, because dental treatment is pivoted, both at the surgery and at the Dental Estimates Board at Eastbourne, on a system which involves requiring the numbers of patients. Treatment should not be held up because of that, but it is essential that some form of numbers should be obtained.

asked the Minister of Education if she will set up a committee to ascertain the reasons why so large a proportion of grammar school pupils leave before the age of 18 years; and to suggest means of encouraging grammer school pupils to stay longer at school.

I am aware of the importance of this problem and I am at present considering it, but I do not think that the setting up of a special committee would be appropriate.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that, in 1950–51, 1,448 grammar school children left at the age of 14; 18,428 left at the age of 15 and 41,600 left at the age of 16, and that over 50 per cent. of grammar school children left at the age of 16 or previously? In view of the importance of this problem what suggestions has she to offer, and what does she propose to do to induce grammar school children to stay longer at school?

The hon. Gentleman has given me a good many figures, so that I do not need to discuss them with him further. I shall do all I can. I have already said that I am considering it.

asked the Minister of Education what her plans are for the development of higher technological education in England and Wales.

On the Government's general policy I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I shall be announcing very shortly my detailed plans for giving improved grants for certain courses in technical colleges in which provision is made for higher technological education.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that I have read that Question and the Chancellor's answer? Can she say why the Government have turned down the recommendation in the White Paper issued by the previous Government that a Royal College of Technology should be set up; can she tell me in what technical colleges financial grants are to be made, and who is to administer those grants? Does she agree that there should be some system of awards to students at technical colleges who reach graduate standard?

I must point out that these supplementaries are very long.

Could the right hon. Lady at least say why the Government have abandoned the idea of setting up a college of technology?

Perhaps that question could best be put to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He and the Government evidently considered that the policy of the late Government was not the best.

asked the Minister of Education the total annual cost to her Department in the administration of divisional executives.

In the light of returns recently received from nearly all county authorities, their total expenditure on divisional administration in 1951–52 may be put at slightly under £2 million, as compared with about £1,750,000 in 1950–51. Sixty per cent. grant is payable by my Department on expenditure of this kind.

In view of that, is the Minister aware that many conscientious local government officers were much disturbed last July when the Chancellor of the Exchequer talked of extravagance in the administration of divisional executives? Will the right hon. Lady give an assurance that the policy of the Government is not to abolish or liquidate the divisional executives?

I do not think it would be worth while to discuss policy announced last July. If the hon. Member looks at the Educational Act he will see that local authorities cannot abolish divisional executives, but they can send suggestions to the Minister. I assure him that suggestions would be considered.

asked the Minister of Education by what amount the cost of school meals is expected to increase by reason of the reduction in food subsidies; and what proportion of the additional cost will be imposed upon the parents of school children.

I estimate that the additional cost due to the announced rises in the price of bread, flour and meat will be of the order of 0.68d. a meal, amounting to something over £1,500,000 in a full year. I cannot estimate the additional cost arising from the other proposals in the Budget until actual price increases and effective dates have been announced. Nor, for the present, can I say anything about the way in which the additional cost will be met.

May we have a definite assurance from the right hon. Lady that the Government will not increase the cost of school meals?

No; I certainly could not give that assurance. The hon. Gentleman probably knows that the first action that I took before discussing a rise in the price to the parents was to ask local authorities to see how much they could cut down the cost of overhead charges.

asked the Minister of Education if she is aware that the relevant figures for Warwickshire of awards to students taking university courses are 8.2 per 10,000; and what action she proposes in this matter to bring the ratio in the case of this local authority nearer to the national average.

I shall be issuing a circular within the next few days in which I shall draw attention to the variations which appear to exist in the awards policies of different authorities, and shall invite authorities to review their arrangements having regard to the figures given in my previous Circular 247 and to a number of other factors. I do not, however, accept the implication that this or any other authority's policy is necessarily inadequate simply because the number of awards taken up in a particular year fell short of the national average.

Is the Minister aware that this is the lowest figure in the country and that this state of affairs is looked upon as a scandal by all but the most parsimonious Tories in the county; and, even more serious than that, that many of the boys and girls will not be able to go to university because of the low number of awards for higher education?

I think that all the anxieties of the hon. Gentleman will be relieved if he reads the answer I have given.

asked the Minister of Education what steps she proposes to take to assist Catholic children attending St.Mary's Roman Catholic schools in Northampton, whose travelling facilities have been removed as a result of her Circular No. 242.

The parents were asked to contribute to the cost of transport where they desired their children to attend a school other than the nearest. The local education authority are now modifying these new arrangements to avoid the possibility of financial hardship.

Will the right hon. Lady see that her Circular does not result in religious discrimination, as it is doing today?

The hon. and learned Gentleman can be assured that we have taken every possible step to see that there should be no religious discrimination. It is clear, and it has been stated, that no child should be debarred from attending a school chosen by its parents simply by financial difficulties.

asked the Minister of Education what steps she is taking to ensure that swimming is taught to children in school hours and by persons properly qualified to teach this art, in view of the harm done to children by unqualified teachers of swimming.

I am satisfied that in general local education authorities and other school authorities make good use of existing facilities for teaching swimming to school children in school hours. It is for those authorities to decide by whom instruction is given and I have no evidence to suggest that any guidance on this matter is called for from my Department.

Does the Minister realise that she is not addressing her mind to the Question on the Order Paper? Further, does she realise that in acting as she does in this matter she is ruining the careers of scores of qualified teachers of swimming as well as harming children by implanting in their minds the fear of water?

I do not feel that I can be accused of implanting the fear of water in young children, as the hon. and learned Gentleman suggested. The Minister has no power to interfere in the curriculum which is laid down by the local authority.

Is not the right hon. Lady aware that there are local education authorities, to which I have drawn her attention, which have reduced education estimates by cutting the cost of swimming instruction? Does she not think that this is extremely unfair to children, all of whom ought to have the opportunity to learn, and that it would be beneficial from the national point of view if they had the opportunity?

I should rather leave to the local authorities certain responsibilities which have been given to them to decide the curriculum.

asked the Minister of Education what action she proposes to take on the decision of the Cornwall Education Committee to withdraw traveling grants from the small number of scholars at St. John's Roman Catholic Voluntary Primary School, Camborne, Cornwall, who live outside the limits for compulsory attendance at that school, the only one of its kind within a radius of 10 miles.

I have been in touch with the authority, who have informed me that they have received some appeals from parents against this decision and that they are giving further consideration to it.

Is the Minister aware that this economy was a direct result of Circular 242? Will she now issue another circular, modifying the terms of the previous one?

No. I certainly will not. The authority agree that they have the power to do these things and to modify them as they think best. The authority are perfectly aware of the facts in Circular 242, and they can act accordingly by modifying their scheme.

asked the Minister of Education what improved educational services she has introduced during the past six months; and what improvements she proposes to introduce in the current year.

My main concern at the present time is to maintain and develop existing educational services, especially by securing the provision of accommodation and teachers for the growing numbers of children of school age, and such expansion of technical education as the resources available to me allow.

Is the Minister aware that in the Tory Party's Election manifesto there was a definite promise that there would be an improvement in educational services, but that during the last eight months, since the Tories have been in power, there has been nothing in the way of improvement and that Circular 242 has meant a continual worsening in educational services? Is this another example of the way in which the Tory Government implement their promises?

There has been a continual improvement. More schools have been provided, more teachers have been brought into them to teach and more kitchens have been opened for feeding the children.

Is the Minister aware that one of the most serious defects in the educational service is the large size of classes, and does she agree that she has already indicated to the House that she anticipates that her policy will result in larger classes within the next 12 months?

The fact is that all the figures for large classes which I have had to give in the House refer to the size of classes when the last Government gave up office. I have inherited a large number of schools where there is an insufficiency of teachers, and I am now increasing the number of teachers as quickly as possible. But there is a lot to be done.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, and of the fact that this is another broken promise, I beg to give notice that I shall take the first opportunity of raising the matter on the Adjournment.