asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence whether any manpower target for Her Majesty's Forces has been set by the Government; and for how long it is intended to continue National Service in its present form.

The manpower target for Her Majesty's Forces is set out in the Statement on Defence, 1952. As regards the second part of the Question, I have nothing to add to the answers given to the right hon. Gentleman by the Prime Minister on Monday last.

Yes, but as the manpower target has been practically achieved and there is sufficient manpower available in order to complete the plans already laid on for the various divisions required, particularly in the Army, why is it necessary to continue National Service in its present form?

The right hon. Gentleman is aware that if the period of National Service were reduced by six months that would result in a fall in the National Service men by 25 per cent., and that certainly is out of the question.

But why should that prove an obstacle? Surely the purpose is to provide as many trained men as is required. That has been practically achieved. Surely the time has come for some modification of the plan, especially as the needs of agriculture are paramount, and men ought to be returned to the agriculture industry?

I am not very clear whether the right hon. Gentleman is advocating a reduction in the period of National Service or the exemption of certain special classes.

Both.

Well, the right hon. Gentleman is aware of the arguments against special privileges for special classes, and I have no doubt he has deployed those arguments himself from this Box. He may also remember that just before the Whitsun Recess he committed himself to the view that it was impossible to defend Europe unless other countries accepted the same period of service as we have, and I hardly think it would be very encouraging to ask other countries to increase their period if we reduce ours.

As it is now recognised that agriculture is of the same importance as re-armament and the export trade, has not the time arrived when we ought to think again about calling up agricultural workers?

The importance of agriculture is realised, but the right hon. Gentleman should realise also that once we start giving a lot of special extensions we create difficulties, and unfairness is introduced which is resented by other classes.

Is not it a fact that at the present time we have reached the peak, as a result of the schemes for National Service and recruiting to the Regular Army, and from now on there will be a falling off? Surely it is a question of looking ahead to see what will be the figures at the end of one year, and not of looking at the figures at this moment?

Is it not true that hon. Members on the other side of the House have said time and again that, once we reached a substantial figure for the Regular Forces, six months' National Service would be sufficient?

I do not think that is so. The right hon. Gentleman will remember that we have had a good many alterations. He has supported 12 months, 18 months and two years. We cannot alter these things every five minutes.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence from what date the Service Departments ceased to take criminal proceedings against men who deserted from the Forces during the 1914–18 war.

No such date was fixed. Cases of desertion were dealt with on their merits.

Would it not be better to have a precise and businesslike arrangement for this? Is it not a fact that there has been in operation without the knowledge or approval of the House a kind of shame-faced, half-hearted, unofficial and highly irregular amnesty in the case of men who deserted during the 1914–18 War, and at some stage or other the Government abandoned all further action in the matter?

It was announced by the last Government that the greatest possible degree of clemency would be shown, but I do not think that the statement of the hon. and gallant Member is accurate.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence how many retired officers of the three Services did not qualify for the last pension or retired pay increase by reason of the fact that their date of retirement was prior to September, 1950; and what would be the cost of granting them an increase proportionate to that granted to the officers who qualified because their retirement date was after September. 1950.

The number of officers of the three Services in receipt of retired pay who did not qualify for the increases announced in Cmd. 8323 is about 29,000. As I informed the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) on 30th June, it would cost annually about £2,100,000 to raise the rates of retired pay of these officers to the rates applicable to those who retired after 1st September, 1950

Is my hon. Friend aware that this discrimination in the rate of pension between people who retired before and after a certain date is a principle which is not accepted in any other form of Government service and that it is monstrously unfair? Has my hon. Friend represented to his noble Friend the general feeling in all quarters of the House the last time I raised this matter and, if he has not, will he do so, because he will certainly find trouble from this side of the House if he does not?

As my hon. and learned Friend knows, this matter has been raised very often in the House. My noble Friend received a Parliamentary delegation from all parties last Monday upon this subject when the case put by my hon. and learned Friend was forcibly expressed.

But will something be done about it?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence to what extent home-grown fruit and British-manufactured preserves form part of the diet of officers and other ranks of Her Majesty's Forces.

Home-grown fruit and preserves are included, to the greatest possible extent, in Service diets. Arrangements for the purchase of these commodities are the responsibility of the respective Service Departments.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind two exceptional circumstances? Will he instruct the Service Departments to take advantage of the large English fruit crop this year with a view to forward contracts and buying; and, secondly, will he give an assurance that no fruit of foreign origin will be bought until the English surplus fruit is cleared?

I am aware that there is a big fruit crop in this country this year. It is the practice of Service Departments to give a preference to home-grown fruit. On the other hand, my hon. Friend will realise that when units are stationed abroad it is not always possible to buy English fruit. They may have to exercise local purchase.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that more milk would also be useful to improve the diet of the officers and men in the Army? Will he keep in mind the supply of milk before the supply of these preserves and fruit?

Can the Minister say whether Tom Tickler's plum and apple, so beloved of the 1914–18 men, is still supplied to the other ranks while blackcurrant jam goes to the officers?

Not without notice.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence whether he will make a further statement on the future development of the 280 rifle for general use in the British Army.

Agreement has now been reached in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation on the characteristics of an improved round of small arms ammunition. No round yet developed possesses these characteristics in full. Experimental work is therefore proceeding on the development of such a round and of weapons to fire it. The object is to produce a round and weapons which will be accepted as standard by all N.A.T.O countries.

Does this mean that the 280 rifle has now been abandoned altogether? Does it mean that we have given up our attempt to convert the American experts to the view that our rifle is superior to anything they can invent?

No, it does not mean that. Development work is still proceeding on the 280 rifle to see if it can be developed to produce a round of the hitting power required.

Does it not mean that the Government have not taken the advice of their expert military advisers?

How long will the experimental work take? Surely the Minister knows that it took several years to develop the 280 rifle and that if we are to start again now it will take five or six years?

It is hoped that it will be completed within the next 12 months.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Chinese and Indians have applied for citizenship of Malaya; what are the conditions under which it is granted; and how many have been accepted.

At the end of March certificates of citizenship had been issued to 299,907 Chinese and 31,505 Indians, Pakistanis and Ceylonese. I cannot say how many applications were awaiting consideration at that time.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the information conveyed to him from Malaya is often in conflict with the information conveyed to me? Is he aware that the slowness in dealing with applications for citizenship is causing the applications to pile up in the offices? Will he ask that these applications should be dealt with more expeditiously?

I should think that it is possible that the hon. Member's information may conflict with mine, but I must rely upon official sources.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies with regard to the Employees' Provident Fund which came into operation in the Federation of Malaya on 1st July, if he will state the contributions paid and the benefits to be received; and what sections of workers were excluded.

Employees' contributions average about 5 per cent. of wages; the employer pays an equal amount. All contributions, with accrued interest, can be withdrawn as a lump sum at the age of 55 or in other specified circumstances. Workers covered by approved schemes, or earning more than $400 or less than $10 a month, or employed in very small concerns, are excluded.

May I ask the Minister if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the main points of the scheme now put into operation, and, if he cannot do that, will he have some copies placed in the Library, in order that hon. Members may examine it and compare it with schemes in operation in this country?

I am afraid the comparison will not be very fruitful, because this is a special kind of scheme, but, if the hon. Member wishes, I will circulate some details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many boys from secondary grammar schools were in the first 31 of the 98 candidates who passed the recent qualifying written examination for Dartmouth.

Thirteen, Sir.

Is the First Lord aware that, despite the fact that 13 grammar school boys were in the first 31 of the written examination, only seven grammar school boys were selected by the interviewing authority?

Yes, Sir; I am aware of that, but the figures in this particular case will not differ very much between the secondary grammar school and the independent and direct grant schools.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many of the 54 boys from grammar schools and how many of the 44 boys from independent and direct grant schools, who passed the recent qualifying written examination for Dartmouth were rejected on medical grounds.

Twelve and seven respectively were found medically unfit for entry in any branch.

Do the Minister's figures show on what grounds this discrimination took place against grammar school boys? Will he explain how it is that, out of 54 grammar school boys who passed the written examination, only seven were selected by the interviewing body, whereas out of 44 public school boys, 24 were selected by the interviewing body?

I think the latter figure is not 44, but 37, but the fact remains that I have attended one of these interviewing boards, and I can say that they are very fairly conducted. The answer simply is that the others did not come up to the qualities expected or needed.

No.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us the composition of the interviewing board?

The interviewing board is set up in conjunction with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education, and consists of representatives of the Admiralty, with the Judge Advocate as Chairman, representatives of the Ministry of Education, of the local education authorities, and also representatives from Scotland. I think there are 13 in all.

Is my right hon. Friend not aware that, when I asked a similar question of his predecessor in regard to grammar school boys, I was told that it was not the practice of the Government to interfere with the decisions of the selection board? Is that still the practice of the Government?

Our practice on this point is very similar to that of our predecessors.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion of the members of the interviewing board were themselves educated at public schools, and may not that explain the preference?

The interviewing board is not always the same. Ft changes very frequently, and I cannot possible tell how many of the members received their education at public schools.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what qualities were judged at the recent selection interviews for Dartmouth.

Intelligence, common sense, character and personality.

Since these are constant qualities emerging regularly in grammar school boys, as in public school boys, will the Minister attempt to explain why, whereas in the past three years, the proportion of grammar school boys who passed the written examination and satisfied the interviewing board was one in four, as against one in two for public school boys, since the Government have taken office, the proportion has now dropped to one in seven selected from grammar school boys? Does he realise that we want the best boys to be officers, whether they are educated at grammar schools or at public schools, and that the retrogression from the policy of the late Government in opening the officer class to all our children is a very bad change?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the interviewing board, which he criticises on this occasion, was set up by our predecessors and is the same as it was under them and that these tests are exactly the same. I must ask the House to await the report of the very important and high-powered Committee on this particular problem, but I gave a pledge to the House on the Navy Estimates, and I repeat it now, that we are determined to see that a fair chance is given to all boys, whatever their educational background, who have the qualities and qualifications required of a future naval officer.

The first Lord just said that the situation today with regard to interviews is almost identical with that under the previous Government. Would he be good enough to say what he means by "almost identical," and what change has taken place in the procedure adopted by the previous Government?

If I said "almost identical," I withdraw the "almost" because in every single case I think the members of the board are the same as under our predecessors. There may have been a change of one member, but I think that at the moment the board is the same as it was under our predecessors.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman say just now that the members of the board were constantly changing? How, then, can it be identical?

The board is constantly changing, but the present board about which the hon. Member asked happens to be the same board which sat under the previous Government.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the selection board which picked Ministers in the last Government had any undue preference for public school boys?

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what preference is given to home-grown fruit and British-manufactured fruit preserves when victualling Her Majesty's ships.

Fresh fruits are obtained by Her Majesty's ships as required and available locally. Some supplies of tinned fruits and jams, particularly on stations abroad, are necessarily obtained from Commonwealth or foreign sources, but the greater proportion consists of items of British produce.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind, in regard to the victualling of ships serving in home waters, that in Herefordshire and Worcestershire particularly we have the largest fruit crop in living memory? Might it not be a good thing if the Royal Navy were given an opportunity to take advantage of these luscious fruits?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am well aware of the fruit crop in Herefordshire during the present season. On the other hand, I am broad-minded enough to bear in mind the needs of all the fruit-growing areas.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that in this context "fruit" means plums, and will he give an assurance that the Royal Navy will not be inundated with plums to the point of nausea, which is what happened in the First World War regarding all branches of the Services?

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind also the particular advantage of the Victoria plums grown in the Clyde Valley?

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what changes have been made in the composition of the Post Office Advisory Council since 1st January, 1952.

Lady Megan Lloyd George, Mr. Connolly Gage, M.P. and Mr. M. K. Macmillan, M.P., have left the Council, and Mrs. Eveline Hill, M.P., Mr. Charles Hayward and Mr. William Ross, M.P., have joined it. My noble Friend has in mind the appointment of one or two additional members.

When my hon. Friend is considering this matter with his noble Friend, will he take into account the advisability of appointing one or two ordinary people who can represent the point of view of the ordinary small user of postal facilities?

Can the Minister say whether in the proposed addition there will be representatives of the staffs in the Post Office in order that their collective experience will be available to the Postmaster-General in the formulative stage of his policy?

I cannot yet say what will be the qualification of the additional members invited to join the Council.

I am asking the hon. Gentleman to express a view as to the desirability of some representatives of the staffs being among the additional members to this Advisory Council.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what steps he is taking to end the anomalous position under which British European Airways Corporation receive 118.5 pence per short ton statute mile, whilst British Overseas Airways Corporation, though also paid below the international rate, receive between 164 and 217 pence per short ton of mail carried.

I am not aware of any substantial change in circumstances, since the rates were established in 1950 and 1951 by the late Government, that would justify their review at present.

Is not the Assistant Postmaster-General aware that there were adjustments during the period of office of the late Government and that it was expected that these adjustments would continue to be made from time to time? In view of the fact that technical developments now mean that it is cheaper to carry mail over a long haul than over a short haul, is not the hon. Gentleman capable of continuing the good work of his predecessor?

No circumstances have arisen since these rates were last fixed that would justify any substantial alterations in the present rates.

When the hon. Gentleman says "substantial alterations," does that mean that he is contemplating some minor alterations?

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he is aware that the decision to erect the new transmitter ordered by the British Broadcasting Corporation at Alexandra Palace, to act as a standby, has caused dissatisfaction to the people of the north-east; and whether, in view of this, he will endeavour to have this decision reconsidered.

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to him on 9th April. The difficulty of establishing a television service from Pontop Pike does not lie in the provision of a low-power transmitter. Other capital investment would be involved, such as a suitable building, a high mast and other equipment.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the decision to erect this new transmitter at Alexandra Palace as a standby makes absolute nonsense of the arguments used that re-armament would prevent work on the one at Pontop Pike? Would the hon. Gentleman say what he meant in a letter which he sent me on 19th May, which states:

"The B.B.C. tells me that there is no truth in the report of new transmitters being on order to replace the equipment in use at Alexandra Palace station. The Corporation's current lease of Alexandra Palace does not expire until 1956, and new transmitters would not be needed before that date at the earliest."

It is quite easy to square that. The answer I gave to the hon. Gentleman refers to the high-power transmitter at Alexandra Palace, whereas the Question he has put on the Order Paper refers to the low-power transmitter.

Could my hon. Friend say how much more equipment is going to be ordered by the B.B.C. merely to he held in reserve? Is he aware that there are already four low-power transmitters which are only used as reserves and that if they were used in the rest of the country the coverage could be extended more speedily? Can he say whether the B.B.C. ever intend to extend their coverage by the use of these transmitters, or whether they propose to use them only as reserves?

I am sorry that the House has not followed my original answer. The trouble is not in the transmitter alone. Other buildings, roads and masts provide the chief difficulties.

Is not the Assistant Postmaster-General aware that the Government, apparently, are going to reduce the rate of re-armament and, that being so, could he not reconsider the position of this new transmitter?

If what the right hon. Gentleman says is true, the additional equipment required will be needed for export and not for the home market.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what mechanical or technical difficulties prevent the opening of the Wenvoe television station in time to transmit currently a film of the Welsh National Eisteddfod.

This is a matter for the B.B.C., but the Corporation informs me that it cannot undertake to open before the 15th August because time is required for testing and other preparatory work. I am glad to say, however, that the Corporation has made arrangements for a film of the Eisteddfod to be transmitted from Wenvoe on 16th August.

Is the Minister aware that the Welsh people are very disappointed with the attitude of the B.B.C. on this question and that they feel that he has not shown much energy in trying to hurry them up? Is he further aware that tests have been conducted already at Wenvoe, that they are highly successful and we see no reason why, with a little energy and enterprise, the Eisteddfod should not be televised concurrently with the event?

I think that the hon. Member knows that if it had been possible to open the station at Wenvoe before 15th August it would not have been feasible to have televised the Eisteddford direct, for it would have cost a very considerable sum of money and would have meant the erection of a number of stations on the hills between Aberystwyth and Wenvoe.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is truly a very widespread desire in Wales that the broadcasts of the National Eisteddfod of Wales, as the premier national cultural festival of the Principality, should be synchronised with the event? Is he aware that there have been reports that there are absolutely no technical barriers to this being done and that it has been reported in the national newspaper of Wales that a prominent member of the B.B.C. staff admitted that there was no technical barrier?

I am afraid that I cannot comment on those reports. I know that it would have pleased all hon. Members who represent Welsh constituencies if it had been possible to open the station earlier, and I am assured by the B.B.C. that, much as they have tried, it is not technically possible to do so.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise this matter on the Adjournment before the Recess, because I feel that if the Minister—

rose—

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what additional stations were needed to provide for the exchange relays now taking place for the benefit of viewers in France and the south of England.

The B.B.C. inform me that four temporary point-to-point relay stations were brought into service to convey the television programmes from Paris to London. Two were in France and two in the south of England. The equipment was not specially purchased for this purpose but was that normally used for outside broadcast purposes and, since the end of the series of Paris programmes, it has been dismantled in readiness for use on other outside broadcasts.

Will the hon. Gentleman let the House know the capital cost of this project?

If the hon. Member will put down a Question I will certainly give him the information.

In view of the Minister's reply to this Question, what is wrong with using that equipment to broadcast the National Eisteddfod from Wenvoe Station?

There are two reasons. The first is that the B.B.C. do not consider that the station at Wenvoe will be ready before 15th August, and the second is that I understand that a different kind of equipment would be required for the link.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General when he proposes to produce a Regulation requiring motor cars to have suppressors to prevent interference with television reception.

My noble Friend hopes to make a Regulation covering new motor cars early next Session.

In view of the fact that a Bill enabling these Regulations to be made was passed some years ago and my hon. Friend promised some months ago to introduce a Regulation shortly, can my hon. Friend say what is causing this delay? Would he confirm that this Regulation will impose an obligation and will not rely in any way on a voluntary system?

It will certainly impose an obligation in the case of new motor cars.

Can my hon. Friend say why it is not proposed to apply it to existing motor cars?

Up to now this Government and their predecessors have wished to see to what extent this can be carried out voluntarily. I am sure that the House will be glad to know that it has been pretty successful and that the number of suppressors now distributed exceed 300,000 a month.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what were the objectives of the British delegation to the Stockholm Radio Conference; how far those objectives were achieved; and if he will publish a White Paper containing the terms of the Agreement.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General for what reasons the United Kingdom delegates at the Stockholm Conference reserved complete freedom with regard to the use of frequencies in Bands II and III, after claiming and getting certain assignments in these bands.

The objectives of the British delegation to the Stockholm Conference were to reach the fullest possible measure of agreement with certain reservations on the allocation of three specified bands discussed at the Conference. Our delegation agreed to the frequencies allotted to us in Band I, which include the high and low powered television stations of the B.B.C. In Bands II and III a large number of frequencies were allotted to us, but it was essential that we should reserve complete freedom until we had decided upon plans for developing V.H.F. sound and television broadcasting, including the type of modulation for sound broadcasting.

Is not this a rather astonishing doctrine? A delegation is sent to Stockholm to obtain certain concessions. We obtain those concessions and, having got them to preserve our position in television, we then reserve complete freedom to interfere with other people's concessions. Is not this a really bad way of doing things?

It would be quite impossible for us to take any other attitude until we have come to a decision ourselves on the form of modulation which we will use for V.H.F. sound broadcasting and other technical questions on television.

How can we complain of Russia not accepting this agreement when we ourselves get what we want and in addition say we reserve complete freedom to take anybody else's concession?

The Conference completely understood our position in this matter.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what reasons were given by the Iron Curtain countries for not signing the Stockholm Wavelength Agreement after having taken part in the Conference which arrived at the Agreement.

The main reasons given were that the plans prepared by the Conference had no adequate technical basis and created unequal conditions for the countries in the European Area.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that our conduct in negotiations was above reproach? In addition to the copy of the Agreement which he has promised to place in the Library, will he furnish hon. Members with some kind of report of the actual negotiations which took place?

I shall be pleased to furnish the House with a copy of the statement put forward by the Russians which explains their attitude.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what further steps he proposes to take to prevent jamming of sound and television broadcasting from this country, consequent upon the failure of Portugal, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and certain Eastern European countries to sign the Stockholm Wavelength Agreement

If the hon. Member refers to deliberate jamming of B.B.C. broadcasts directed to certain countries, the problem is not affected by the discussions at the recent Stockholm Conference as these broadcasts are operated on wavelengths outside the bands considered at Stockholm. If he has in mind interference to our own internal broadcasting services, the fact that certain countries did not sign at Stockholm does not necessarily mean that they will interfere with their neighbours.

In view of the jamming which is taking place at the moment, may I ask the Minister whether or not he has made any approach, or is intending to make any approach, with a view to preventing this interference?

I can assure the hon. Member and the House that when continuous jamming takes place on a wavelength the strongest representations are made by us to the country concerned.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he will now make a statement with regard to the provision of telephone kiosks on the Stocking Farm Estate, Leicester.

Two additional kiosks will be provided on this estate by the end of this month.

Can the Minister say, if not exactly, about when they are likely to be available for use?

There are only another eight days before the end of this month.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what limit, under his regulations, is placed on the length of time an individual may occupy a public telephone booth when engaged upon a local or trunk call.

No one, as a matter of right, is entitled to continue a call for more than three minutes.

Can my hon. Friend take an assurance from me that recently I had to wait 25 minutes outside a 'phone box? Would he consider reposting inside telephone boxes a notice which, as far as I can recall, used to be displayed there always requesting people to limit their calls to six minutes at the most?

I am sorry about my hon. Friend's experience, but he must blame the occupant of the box and not the Post Office

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what are the regulations concerning the use of telephone poles for advertising; and what recent prosecutions there have been for the infringement of these regulations.

Fixing advertisements, notices, etc., on telephone poles without authority is prohibited by Section 62 of the Post Office Act, 1908. There have been no recent prosecutions for offences against this Section.

Is my hon. Friend aware that on 5th July last there was a political meeting held at Portishead, in Somerset, and that this meeting, which was attended by the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), was advertised on a telegraph pole close to Failand?

I am aware of that incident and, as is normal in cases of this sort, a letter was sent by the local regional director of the Post Office to the secretary of the Labour Party. A reply was received giving an assurance that this poster was not affixed by the party and offering to help in any way they could to remove it.

Is the Minister aware that it was a very successful meeting?

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General approximately what proportion of telephone subscribers numbers are changed in a year without changing their addresses.

I regret the information is not available, but I can assure my hon. Friend that changes of subscribers' telephone numbers are avoided as far as possible.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air on how many occasions the Filey Bay air-to-air practice firing range has been used by the Royal Air Force since 14th December, 1951, the date on which his Department's application to use the range was granted.

None, Sir.

Does my hon. Friend intend to retain the right to use this range, as it is not being used?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that recent instances of low flying and the taking off and landing of aircraft very near to built-up areas in the Hellesdon, Catton and other districts close to Norwich, have caused considerable disturbance and anxiety to residents in those neighbourhoods, especially to the sick and to children; and if he will have an immediate investigation made with a view to preventing a recurrence or at least ensuring a lessening of the number of these incidents.

As I explained to my hon. and gallant Friend in my letter of 27th June, I have every sympathy with the residents in this area. The training of our fighter pilots is essential to the defence of this country, however, and short of closing the airfield at Horsham St. Faith, there is no way of preventing low flying there.

Is the Minister aware that the people of Norfolk are very conscious of the vital need for this flying training and are indeed grateful to these young men who are risking and unhappily often losing their lives in their efforts to be trained for our defence; but, in regard to this particular aerodrome, is it not a fact that in the flying funnel there are schools containing some 2,000 children and a great deal is to be said for extending the runways away from the city altogether?

Yes, but there is no question of extending the runways towards the city.

Is the Minister aware that this is a long-standing danger and nuisance? Must the people of Norwich wait until there is some dreadful accident involving the lives of its citizens before something is done to stop this?

We have every possible sympathy with the inhabitants of Norwich, but Horsham St. Faith is a highly important tactical and strategical airfield necessary to the defence of England, and the low flying there is caused by aircraft taking off and landing, which cannot be avoided.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if his attention has been drawn to recent incidents where aircraft have crashed on or near to built-up areas, and having regard to the number of air stations which are situated within close range of large cities and other centres of population, and the dangers inseparable from taking off and landing, he will now review the siting of these particular stations with a view, where possible, to moving them away to airfield sites remote from towns and cities, many of which are at present lying derelict.

I very much regret that my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion is operationally impracticable. Those airfields which are not now being used or developed are either unsuitable by modern standards or are so situated that they would not meet operational needs.

Was it not rather unfortunate that, at the end of the war when it was possible to make decisions in these matters, many of the airfields quite close to great built-up areas were retained and other airfields in the open country were allowed to become disused?

There are many factors which enter into the choice of an airfield. We have looked very carefully at all of them, and I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that the airfields which remain derelict remain so because they are either in the wrong places as far as the R.A.F. is concerned or are unsuitable for rehabilitation.

Is it not a fact that the reason why these airfields in Norfolk cannot be used instead of the aerodrome at St. Faiths is simply that the Treasury will not face the cost? Are we to balance the cost to the Treasury against the possible loss of life in Norwich?

That is not the case. The sort of factors which are taken into consideration are technical ones, such as the contours of the land, the suitability of the subsoil and obstructions to flying approaches.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he will institute pre-release courses in agriculture for National Service men in the Royal Air Force.

No, Sir. Facilities are provided to enable National Service men to study agriculture in their spare time throughout their period of service.

Does the Under-Secretary not agree that considerable checks have been placed on the development of agriculture by the continued call-up of agricultural workers? Will he do something to check the stoppage which is going on by giving National Service men an opportunity to study agriculture if they so wish?

I cannot say anything about the call-up of agricultural workers. National Service men are already free to study agriculture in their spare time. They are free to attend local educational classes; facilities are made available to them for free travel and, if necessary, they can take the correspondence course which is provided by the Army.

In view of the fact that the manpower needs of the Royal Air Force have been largely met, would it not be much more desirable to retain these agricultural workers in their proper sphere in the agricultural industry and release them at once?