asked the Minister of Health what steps he intends taking to lessen the incidence of food poisoning, in view of the report contained in Command Paper No. 8582, of an increase in the number of cases of the illness.

I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given to my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Vaughan-Morgan) by myself on 16th October and by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food on 20th October.

But does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that now is an opportune time for him, accompanied by the Minister of Food, to approach the Prime Minister and to stress the need for early legislation to amend the Food and Drugs Acts? As a Bill for that purpose is ready for presentation to Parliament will he do his utmost to try to ensure that that is brought before us as the first piece of legislation in the new Session, instead of the nonsense about de-nationalisation?

I cannot give any guarantee about legislation in any Session. I have a personal interest in this matter because I am suffering at the present time from a mild attack of food poisoning and I will certainly go into all the matters raised by the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Health what evidence is available of the toxic effects following the use of detergents in cleansing glass and crockery; and what figures he has as to the incidence of dermatitis following their use.

I am not aware of any.

Has the Minister not been made aware that detergents tend to cause dermatitis, chapped hands, and so on? Is he not aware it is agreed that if glasses and crockery are not adequately washed after being dipped into detergents a cumulative dose is gradually taken into the human body and that that is not good for it?

I do not dispute that, but that is not the Question that I have been asked. It is true that any strong solution might lead to dermatitis, but the Minister of Labour and the Minister of National Insurance—and I have inquired from them both—and I have no such evidence as is referred to in the Question.

asked the Minister of Health what arrangements he has made in cases of emergency, such as the railway disaster at Harrow, to draft doctors with specialised experience in traumatic surgery to hospitals in the immediate vicinity, so that the best known treatment may become available to sufferers.

I am sure that the hon. Member will agree that the medical aid rendered in this disaster was prompt and efficient. The general surgeons at the hospitals concerned, though not specialists, are experienced in traumatic work. Further help of this nature was offered but not required. The tragedy will be closely studied to see what lessons can be learnt from it.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that traumatic surgery is a speciality of its own? As an instance of that, there are several accident hospitals. Is it not of the greatest importance that people who suffer unexpectedly in this way should in all cases have the very best treatment?

Yes, Sir; I have great sympathy with the hon. Gentleman's point of view, but I did say in my answer that such skilled specialist help was offered and in this case was not required. We shall certainly see if there are any lessons that we can learn from this disaster.

asked the Minister of Health the number of infant deaths for 1951 attributable to organisms contained in liquid milk of all grades.

I regret that the information is not available.

Would the right hon. Gentleman try to get the information? I think he will agree that it is very important?

Yes, but deaths attributable to organisms contained in liquid milk are not recorded as a separate form of death in the general registry.

I appreciate that, but diseases like collapsed vertebrae and bone deficiency may be attributable to bad milk, and as this is very important would it be possible to make inquiries?

I will have another look at it.

asked the Minister of Health the number of organisms per cubic centimetre, permitted in certified milk, "Grade A" milk, and "Grade A. (T.T.)" milk including coliform organisms, respectively.

In England and Wales the regulations no longer provide for the designations for milk and the tests referred to in the Question. "Certified" and "Grade A (T.T.)" have been replaced by "Tuberculin Tested." "Grade A" has been replaced by "Accredited" and these grades of milk must comply with a methylene blue reduction test.

Does the reply indicate that the standard has gone up, or that the standard formerly set can no longer be adhered to? To cut matters short, Mr. Speaker, may I ask if the Minister would try to let mothers know that all milk must still be boiled?

I am really anxious to help the hon. Lady, but she must realise that she has asked me a question about a coliform test which does not exist, in relation to three grades of milk none of which exist. In view of that, it is difficult to give a more detailed answer.

asked the Minister of Health whether, having regard to the heavy waiting list in the Pontypridd and Rhondda area and the disproportionate maintenance cost involved in the present limited occupation, he will consider facilitating to the utmost of his power the completion of the scheme for the adaptation of the Tonteg Hospital, near Pontypridd, for the treatment of tuberculosis.

I hope it will be possible to commence the final stage of this particular scheme early next year.

asked the Minister of Health how far experience has shown the effectiveness of the new B.C.G. vaccination in combating tuberculosis; and whether he will take action to offer its protection to children leaving school.

It is too early yet to make a firm assessment of the effectiveness of B.C.G. in this country. As regards children leaving school I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) on 21st October.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in 1946 a report was submitted to his Ministry by a mission which visited Sweden and which took professional advice on the question of the generalised use of B.C.G.? Is there not public disquiet at the slow rate of experimentation?

I fear that progress appears to be slow, but in Scandinavia medical opinion is by no means unanimous about the effectiveness of B.C.G. and those who advise me in this matter—the Medical Research Council—are not yet satisfied that its full effectiveness has been proved.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a very considerable body of opinion in this country, including eminent medical opinion, agrees with this vaccine, and will he, in his attempt to make up the leeway on this disease, see that he is not thwarted by any dilatoriness on behalf of the Medical Research Council?

Yes, certainly. It is true that there is a big body of medical opinion which thinks that we should press on faster than we are doing with B.C.G.; but there is also a large body of medical opinion which holds that we should wait until we know fully whether it will be effective.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the percentage of reactors among school leavers is showing an increase and that the school population therefore shows itself to be more susceptible when leaving school now than formerly? Is that not an important factor?

It is a very important factor and is probably the most valuable field of all for experimentation. As the hon. Member knows, the Medical Research Council are, in fact, experimenting in that field now.

Is not there a considerable danger in encouraging people to trust to vaccine instead of hygiene and the laws of nature?

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the constant appeal for funds on behalf of the British Empire Cancer Campaign; and if he will consider increasing Government assistance to facilitate the work of this worthy cause.

The extension of cancer research financed from Government funds is constantly under review by my Department in consultation with the Medical Research Council. But I should not wish to discourage appeals by bodies like this to enable them to assist additional research activities.

Does not the Minister think it would be better if the Government took over the whole of the contributions to the Medical Research Council rather than have this work restricted by inadequate subscriptions from voluntary organisations?

It is an arguable matter. Personally, I would say no. I think it is best that the Government continue, through the Medical Research Council, voluntary hospitals and the universities, to pursue their own investigations, but that that should not bar a voluntary body from proceeding on lines which are perhaps outside what the Government themselves are trying to do.

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is evidence of a certain amount of friction among bodies concerned with the study and cure of cancer? Would he do all in his power to bring them together, because it seems to me that this is essentially a matter which should have a forward drive on the part of everybody, even if there is not quite agreement on the methods used?

I am fully in sympathy with my hon. and gallant Friend's point of view.

Does not the Minister think that the nation's values are wrong when there is no limit to the expenditure on atomic research while there is a limit to the grants which the Government are prepared to make towards the discovery of a cure for a disease which is killing thousands every year?

There is not necessarily any limit at all. I made a close investigation into this very shortly after I became Minister and I was satisfied that research was not being held up in any way through lack of finance.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the charge payable to chemists for prescriptions varies according to the size of the doctor's handwriting; and if he will arrange for prescription forms to be larger, or for continuation sheets to be used.

No, Sir. I think there is normally ample room for a doctor to write whatever he considers necessary.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have here a letter from an old-age pensioner in Coventry who suffers from paralysis and finds it difficult to write? He states in this letter that the doctor to whom he goes has, unfortunately, large handwriting and that it takes two pages to write out a prescription? Is the Minister aware that this man is charged 2s. instead of 1s. and that he cannot afford it? Will the Minister look into this matter again?

I am delighted to look into anything that the hon. Lady brings to my notice, but up to the present I have seen no evidence of this need and I believe that the present size of Form E.C. 10 is ample.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that orthodontic treatment is not provided under the National Health Service either by any dentist in Kettering or by the Kettering General Hospital or the Northampton General Hospital; what facilities are available for this treatment under the National Health Service within Northamptonshire; and what steps he proposes to take to provide or increase such facilities in the county and in Kettering for children and others.

I understand that several dentists in Kettering are prepared to provide orthodontic treatment under the general dental services. The regional hospital board is considering extending hospital facilities.

Is the Minister aware that none of the Kettering dentists provide treatment under the Health Service, largely because of their resentment at certain delays of the Dental Estimates Board? Is he aware that there is no doubt whatever that under the Health Service the dentists, the Kettering General Hospital and the Northampton General Hospital will not provide this very necessary treatment? Is he aware—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]—that the teeth and the general health of the children are suffering in consequence and will he provide for dental consultation and work to be done at one or other of these hospitals?

I have access to the records of the Dental Estimates Board. Up to a dozen dentists in Kettering alone have submitted estimates of orthodontic treatment, which makes nonsense of what the hon. and learned Member says.

rose——

In the interests of hon. Members who have Questions on the Order Paper may I make an appeal for short supplementary questions?

asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been called to the case of an Italian subject who had two years of surgical treatment at a cost of £500 to the British taxpayer, particulars of which have been sent him; and what is now the policy of Her Majesty's Government as regards free treatment to the citizens of other nations.

I was already aware of the case to which my hon. Friend refers, and am writing more fully to him. As a matter of policy, permission is, whenever possible, refused to aliens coming to this country for the avowed purpose of obtaining free treatment under the National Health Service and hospitals are discouraged from making arrangements to this end.

I understand that the Minister advocated a certain line of policy. Will he now implement what he once advocated?

This case, the like of which I hope does not happen again, was brought to the notice of the Ministry of Health in October, 1950. I had no responsibility for that.

asked the Minister of Health the total charge on the National Health Service in 1951 for prescriptions under 1s. in value; and what were the sums in that amount on account of the 25 per cent. on-cost payment and the minimum dispensing fees, respectively.

I regret that this information is not available. The protion, however, must be so small as to be virtually negligible.

asked the Minister of Health (1) why, in the recent Reports, Part I, National Health Service, and Part II, On the State of the Public Health, no reference was made to the number of occupation centres and clubs in the country;

Some selection is made of particular aspects of the mental health services dealt with in detail in such reports and occupational training was so dealt with in the previous report for the year ended 31st March, 1950. In December, 1951, there were 195 centres and 11 clubs, and the number attending them was 7,351. The corresponding figures in December, 1950, were 183, 12 and 6,318.

In view of the considerable interest which most of those who are interested in this side of the work take in the occupation centres, will my right hon. Friend see that in future reports the relevant figures are given?

I know that my hon. Friend is particularly interested in this subject. The figures have continued to climb throughout this year. I shall certainly consider whether we should make a fuller statement in the next annual report.

asked the Minister of Health if he has considered payment of interest on amounts due to chemists in respect of prescriptions under the National Health Act where such amounts have been outstanding for more than three months.

No, Sir. Such a payment would not be justified. The payments on account which are made each month are designed to put chemists in broadly the same position as if final settlement were up to date.

asked the Minister of Health what portion of the Danckwerts award will be passed on to doctor assistants and trainee apprentices; and how far, in view of this award, he considers it necessary to continue payments to doctors for trainee assistants.

I cannot say what adjustments in the light of the Danckwerts award will be made in the salaries of assistants, which is a matter for the doctors who employ them.

Would the Minister consider making changes in view of the fact that when the Danckwerts recommendations were originally put forward there was no Government grant of £1,000 to doctors for what are really locums who help them in their work? We are continuing to give them £1,000 per annum, but they are not apprentices.

I would not agree that this is just a subsidy to locums. I think it has very much more value than that and, as the hon. Lady knows, both the original scheme and, in consequence, the Danckwerts award, were attached to principals and not to assistants.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is some difference of opinion in the medical profession as to how these sums of money should be allocated? Will he consider representations on this subject before the final recommendations are approved by the Government?

I have already started implementing the award of the Danckwerts money. It was passed without comment by the House before the Recess, but I shall be happy to consider any representations which are made on this important matter.

asked the Minister of Health how many claims for payment by dentists and others have been disallowed because the National Registration card identity number of the patient is not available; and what is the total amount involved.

I am not aware of any such case.

If I send to the Minister the most indignant letters which I have received from dentists will he see that these complaints are dealt with satisfactorily?

Yes, of course; but surely that is a slightly different point? There may well be delay if the number is not taken, but I know of no case in which payment has been disallowed.

If a patient attends a dentist and treatment is carried out and the patient has no identity card, what redress has the dentist? He is instructed by the Dental Estimates Board to tell the patient that he must go to the food office to get the number. If the patient does not do that, what does the dentist do then? Why is there any need for this number?

As the hon. Member knows, under the old N.H.I. scheme we always had numbers. One cannot possibly run a scheme without these numbers. The proper source of the information to which the hon. Member refers is the Executive Council and not the food office.

Will my right hon. Friend resist any attempt on the part of the Opposition to have identity cards reintroduced?

asked the Minister of Health how far the present bed space in the mental hospitals fails to meet the demands of patients under treatment for mental illness.

On 1st January, 1952, the bed space in use was overcrowded by 16,124 patients, an average of 13.5 per cent.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that all the available space is being used for the purpose for which it is intended? Does not the Ministry's Report say that some of the available bed space is diverted to other purposes? What other purposes are they? Ought not the right hon. Gentleman look into this matter?

I will certainly look at it. If the hon. Gentleman wants to raise a particular point relating to my Report, perhaps he will put a Question down.

Do not the figures submitted by the right hon. Gentleman disclose a very unsatisfactory state of affairs? Has he any information on what is likely to be done?

They disclose a most unsatisfactory state of affairs, and the reason, frankly, is that in the honeymoon period of Health Service expenditure nothing like enough attention was given to the mental health service.

Would the right hon. Gentleman now be able to tell us the answer to a question which I think he was unable to answer earlier, whether there are any projects for building new accommodation in mental hospitals suffering under the postponement of new capital expenditure which took place at the beginning of the year?

I must have notice of that.

asked the Minister of Health how much accommodation is out of use at mental hospitals owing to lack of nursing staff.

On 1st January, 1952, the number of unstaffed beds was 1,748.

asked the Minister of Health what is the present shortage of nursing staff, male and female, respectively, in the mental hospitals; how these figures compare with those for 1951; and what special steps are being taken to overtake the shortage.

The present shortage is estimated at about 3,500 men and 7,700 women. A year ago it was estimated at about 3,000 men and 8,000 women. The problem is being closely studied by my Mental Health Advisory Committee.

Is not this problem of under-staffing and inadequate accommodation a very old one, without apportioning blame in the matter? Is it not a question which concerns every section of the nation and one in which greater expenditure and more service from the community will have to be forthcoming? Can we do anything to attract still more young people to this vital service?

The recommendations of my Mental Health Advisory Committee, may, I think, help. There is a particular recommendation for increased pay at the moment before the Whitley Council, and I understand that agreement has been reached on that matter. I hope that will help.

Would the Minister agree that one of the great contributory factors in the present state of the mental hospitals is that many old people are there who ought not to be in mental hospitals at all? Is he further aware that in the Menston Hospital, which I visited recently, there were 112 patients sleeping in one ward, and that over 500 patients in the hospital are over 65 years of age, many of them bedridden and not requiring any mental attention at all?

Yes, there is a great deal of truth in that, but beyond question the best solution is a large and expanding housing programme, and that is receiving attention.

Could the Minister give any idea of the percentage of the total need which these shortages represent?

I had better have notice of that question, which is complicated by an alteration a few months ago in the standards of bedding.

asked the Minister of Health how many, and what are the names of the hospitals in the county of Durham which perform operations for tonsils and adenoids; how many children under school age and of school age are waiting for operations; what is the longest and the shortest period of waiting; and what schemes he has in mind to overcome this waiting period.

As the reply includes a tabular statement I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Could not the right hon. Gentleman have been more explicit in this matter, because in industrial areas such as South Wales and Durham, children are having to wait over two years for an operation? Would he not try to do something about this?

Yes, but the hon. Member has asked for details of every hospital in Durham. I would be reading them until the end of Question time if I were to give them now instead of in the tabular statement.

asked the Minister of Health how many children under school age and how many attending school are on the waiting list for tonsils and adenoids operations at Dryburn Hospital and the County Hospital, County Durham; and what is the longest period of time any child has had to wait for such operation.

I am informed that operations for tonsils and adenoids are not done at Dryburn Hospital. For Durham County Hospital the answer to the first part of the Question is 33 and 210 and to the second 15 months.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that Mr. J. G. Brown, 44 Red Courts, Brandon Colliery, County Durham, is being asked to pay £16 7s. for an operation to his child who was suffering from infection of the tonsils and adenoids, was losing weight and unable to attend regularly at school; that the school clinic doctor and the local family doctor agreed that an operation had to be performed; and why no date could be given to the father for the operation to take place under the provisions of the National Health Service, although it was done at once by private means.

I am making inquiries and will write to the hon. Member.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in this case the child had to wait for years, was losing weight and losing attendance at school, apart from all the discomfort that the child was undergoing? This is a very troublesome question in Durham, and for a parent who has to work for his living this was a most unusual sum to pay. Will the Minister try to stop this racket, because this is just a method of jumping the queue?

I will look into all the matters which the hon. Member has raised, and will write to him.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has now received the report of the King Edward's Hospital Fund on its hospital costing investigation; and what arrangements he is making for publication.

Yes, Sir. I have now received from both the Fund and the Nuffield Trust their reports on hospital costing, together with a joint covering statement. At my request the two bodies are arranging to publish the reports as soon as possible, and copies will then be placed in the Library of the House and made available for discussion and consideration throughout the service.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that answer will be widely welcomed?

asked the Minister of Health whether he has yet received the reports from the hospital authorities on visiting in children's wards.

Yes, Sir. The reports show that of the 1,300 hospitals admitting children, all except 70 fever hospitals and 75 others allow regular visiting. Three hundred allow visits to take place daily, and the great majority of the remainder allow visits more than once a week.

In that case, would my right hon. Friend circulate to those hospitals which do not permit daily visiting the evidence from those which do, with a strong recommendation that they should look into this matter and endeavour to adopt the system of daily visiting?

I should be very happy to consider this and I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for raising the matter because the inquiry—the result of which I have announced to the House—stems from an Adjournment debate which he initiated, I think, in March.

asked the Minister of Education (1) where, in view of the number of houses being built and planned in the borough and rural district of Newcastle-under-Lyme through the agency of the National Coal Board to enable mineworkers and their families from other coalfields to come to North Staffordshire, and of the increase in the child population which will result, she will reconsider the school-building programme for Staffordshire to make provision for the children of these families;

The local educational authority and my Department are fully aware of the arrangements being made for the rehousing of miners in the Newcastle area of Staffordshire. This will undoubtedly cause pressure of school accommodation, but I should not on my present information feel justified in adding any major project for this area to the authority's school building programme for 1953–54. One new primary school and a secondary school are already under construction at Newcastle, and another primary school is due to begin this month.

Is the Minister not aware that this new situation, which has arisen since she cut the Staffordshire programme by 1,000 primary places, will add several hundred children during the next few years to the normal growth of child population in this area of North Staffordshire? In view of the fact that the Newcastle Education Committee have commandeered every available bit of extra accommodation, like church halls, for classes, does not this call for some reconsideration of the programme?

I understand that about half of the 600 houses to be occupied by miners are to be occupied by local miners. I remind the hon. Gentleman that we are in close touch with the Coal Board about the dates on which the houses are to be begun, that we have increased the allocation for minor capital work to £70,000 and that the authority's school building programme for the next year amounts to £900,000.

asked the Minister of Education what value of school building was authorised from 1st January, 1952, to the latest convenient date; and what was the value authorised in the same period in 1951.

Between 1st January and 31st August, 1952, the value of educational building work approved in England and Wales was £27,839,000. The comparable figure for 1951 was £42,117,000.

As a permanent school takes up to two and a half years to build will not this sharp fall in the allocation this year result in a severe bottleneck by 1954? Is the right hon. Lady quite indifferent to that situation and, if so, does her indifference arise from the fact that she knows she will not be Minister of Education in 1954?

No, because I still think that the new plan to start fewer schools and finish them more quickly gives us the schools. Yesterday I opened a secondary school which had been completed in 18 months. It is quite clear that we can get the schools built more quickly if we start fewer.

Is the Minister aware that the policy of her colleagues in the Cabinet is to restrict the supply of steel for school building? It is all very well for her to get out of it in that way, but if the Minister of Supply gave the allocation of steel guaranteed by the Labour Government the Minister would have no problem.

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I know more about my colleagues' arrangements for steel allocation than he does. I know the figures. If the hon. Gentleman will look at the number of complaints brought to the House last year of buildings that were held up because there was not sufficient steel, so that we had schools not being completed in under four years, he would soon agree that my policy was better.

Does not the right hon. Lady yet realise that one has to start building before one can finish them?

I am fully in agreement with the hon. Lady on that, but I would ask her to consider whether it is of any use to the children and our educational system to have schools started but not finished?

asked the Minister of Education what capital expenditure projects of the Cornwall Education Committee exceeding £2,000 were approved by her Department for 1949–50, 1950–51, 1951–52 and 1952–53, respectively.

I am sending the hon. Member a list of these projects.

asked the Minister of Education how many new school buildings have been provided by the Cornwall Education Committee since 1945; and what is the cost, accommodation and date of opening of each.

Two new schools have been completed in Cornwall since the war. Falmouth Primary School was built to accommodate 240 infants, the contract value of the project was £58,000 and the school was taken into use in April, 1951. Newquay County Primary School provides 160 places for infants at a contract cost of £26,474 and was opened in January, 1952.

Does not that reply indicate that there is ample room in Cornwall now for a number of new schools to be started, since only two have been completed in recent years? Will the right hon. Lady therefore lift the ban she has imposed on new school building?

I am not responsible for the fact that since the war only two new schools were built. I am responsible for the fact that three new schools are at present under construction—Saltash, Torpoint and Newquay Secondary School.

asked the Minister of Education what steps she is taking to provide secondary education for the 354,000 children of 11 and upwards now being taught in all-age schools.

The proportion of senior pupils in all-age schools continues to show a marked decrease. Much can be and is being done by local education authorities and teachers to meet the special needs of those who remain in all-age schools.

Does not this large number of children of 11 and upwards who are still in primary schools make rather derisory the promise of the Education Act of 1944 to provide secondary education for all? Will the Minister encourage the local authorities concerned to get on quickly with their re-organisation schemes?

Yes, but I am carrying on a policy decided some years ago that at present building should concentrate on new schools. I would inform the hon. Gentleman that in 1952 the percentage had fallen to 15.8 as compared with 16.9 in January, 1951, and with 18 per cent. in January, 1950. We are improving the position.

Is the Minister aware that re-organisation can very often take place within the existing accommodation, that this has been done in Cardiff, but that there is only one opportunity and one school life available for these children and that they are not having a square deal in present circumstances?

I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that re-organisation can take place, and that is the reason why there has been a decrease in the figures. We are going on with those schemes which have shown good results.

Is the Minister aware that she has cut out of the Hampshire school building programme two modern secondary schools at Petersfield and Fordingbridge which would have enabled the children in that part of the county to get real secondary education? Is she aware that she has cut it out this year and next year, too?

Yes, but I would remind the hon. Gentleman that it is still my policy to have fewer schools started and to complete them more quickly. I can assure him that at present, at any rate, the policy is succeeding. As I informed the House last week, more school building has been done in the first half of this year than in the first half of last year.

asked the Minister of Education the number of all-age schools in Warwickshire; and when it is her intention to provide modern facilities for secondary education for the children of those schools.

About 80. I regret that the building of new schools solely to secure reorganisation cannot at present be justified, but every opportunity will be taken of securing the benefits of reorganisation when new school places can be justified on other grounds.

Is the Minister aware of the keen anxiety of all parents and teachers about this deplorable position? Is she further aware that even the Tory County Council who are usually her most docile supporters and followers in Warwickshire—are mortified about this position?

Yes, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be only too glad to inform the county council that I am continuing the policy found necessary by my predecessor. I am continuing the policy of building new schools for children wanting to go to school, rather than build at present for the sake of reorganisation.

asked the Minister of Education how many primary and secondary school classes there are now with over 60 pupils; where these schools are situated; and what special steps are being taken to reduce the numbers in these classes.

The returns for last January showed that there were then nine classes in which there were 60 or more children being taught by one teacher. These have now been reduced in size through the provision of additional accommodation or an extra teacher.

Does the right hon. Lady appreciate that much of the performance up to now is as a result of what happened when Labour were in office and the plans were made? Can she give an assurance that the plans which are now being made will mean that, in spite of the increased number of children entering the schools, these large classes will become even fewer in the next 12 months than they are at present?

I can at any rate assure the hon. Gentleman that there were nine cases last January of classes of over 60 pupils and that that number has now been reduced; and that had to do with this Administration and not the last Administration. That is an improvement. I shall not receive the figures of the number in classes at present until a later date, but we have made an improvement in those nine classes.

Has the Minister taken note of the enormous increase in the number of classes with over 50 pupils, and is that not a terrible condemnation of the fact that she has cut down the number of schools under construction from the 464 which were started in the first six months of 1951 to the 128 started in the first six months of this year?

I have the numbers, and if the hon. Gentleman likes to put down a Question asking for the number of classes over 50, I shall be willing to give him all the facts. But I would also point out that the problem is the number of teachers we require for the extra number of children. The fact still remains that we are getting schools quicker at present. We are not starting more—I think too many were started—but we are getting school places quicker than under the previous Administration.

asked the Minister of Education how many local authorities have informed her that they are proposing to adopt the standard rates of assistance for major awards mentioned in Administrative Memorandum No. 425.

Of 129 authorities which have so far informed me of their proposals for the academic year 1952–53, 98 have accepted either wholly or substantially the revised standard figures I have recommended. In 10 cases these are provisional decisions still subject to confirmation.

Since there are about 150 local education authorities, does not the answer mean that about 40 have not adopted the policy laid down in the Ministry's memorandum? What steps will she take to guide them into the paths of virtue?

Altogether, 17 authorities have not yet reached a decision. In most cases they are awaiting the meeting of a committee. In addition, 31 authorities have not accepted the new rates.

asked the Minister of Education the total number of new major awards which local education authorities have notified her, following her request in Circular 252, as being their intention to grant this year.

Altogether, 113 authorities gave me a forecast of the number of new university awards they expected to be taken up this autumn. The total for these authorities shows a slight drop when compared with the total for the same authorities for 1951.

Is not that policy contrary to the spirit of the right hon. Lady's memorandum?

The drop among the 130 authorities is slight—the difference between 7,242 and 7,507. But I would inform the hon. Gentleman that the number of State scholarships taken up is 400 more than last year.

asked the Minister of Education if she is now in a position to give the numbers of full-time and part-time students, respectively, in technical colleges for the session 1951–52; and what are the similar numbers for the session, beginning September, 1952.

The figures for 1951–52 will not be available until early in 1953. No statistics are submitted at the beginning of a session.

asked the Minister of Education why she has not issued recommendations to local authorities regarding the awards to technical college students as suggested by the National Union of Students.

I prefer to leave this matter to local education authorities, who are usually in a better position than I am to judge the appropriate rates.

asked the Minister of Education how many places remained vacant in the teacher training colleges at their opening in October, 1952.

The latest but still not quite final returns showed some 500 vacancies in teacher training colleges for courses beginning this autumn.

Is the Minister aware that one place vacant is one too many in these colleges? In view of her earlier statement about the large numbers of large classes, what does she intend to do in this most serious situation?

I quite agree that we want as many vacancies taken up as possible. There are about 100 more vacancies this year than last year. The decrease in the number of women taking up places is 150 and the increase in the number of men is 50, but I would add that, as more left the training colleges, that gave us a larger percentage of places to be taken up this year than ever before.

asked the Minister of Education how many secondary grammar schools are short of their establishment of science teachers; what is the prime cause of the shortage; and what steps she proposes to take to remedy it.

asked the Minister of Education, in view of the Government's proposals for the expansion of higher technological education, what steps she intends to take in order to ensure that enough science and mathematics teachers of the requisite quality are available in the schools to train prospective students.

While I have no precise information, there is no doubt that the schools need more mathematics and science teachers than they are able to recruit. The main reason is that the total demand for qualified scientists in all fields is greater than the supply. The number of graduates in these subjects completing courses of professional training as teachers who have obtained or are seeking posts in maintained schools amounted to 543 this year as compared with 418 last year.

Is the Minister aware that there has been a shortage of science teachers for a considerable time and that it has been brought about because in industry they are offered from 50 per cent. to 60 per cent. more salary than they were getting from the Minister? Will she give consideration to the salary factor in attracting and holding them to the scholastic profession.

I quite agree that there has been a shortage of these teachers, but I think the hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that there is an increase this year.

asked the Minister of Education whether the consultations with interested bodies in regard to the financial position of denominational schools have yet resulted in any definite proposals; and when she expects to be in a position to announce the proposals in detail and introduce any necessary measure.

Yes, but I cannot say yet when my proposals can be announced.

Is the Minister in that very short answer—short in every way—seeking to indicate to the House that there is every possibility that these proposals will be introduced during the next Session?

I think I must leave that to the hon. Member to consider for himself.

Could the right hon. Lady explain why the Bill to benefit the brewers came up before this particular Bill?

asked the Minister of Education whether she will now abandon the system whereby young students are required to sign a declaration or other document committing them to teach in consideration of their receiving assets.

No, Sir, so far as concerns students entering training colleges for teachers.

Would the right hon. Lady look at this again? It is a small matter, and I think she would agree that this serves no useful purpose and is vexatious. Would it not be better now to accept the recommendations of the McNair Committee?

No, I do not agree. I think that in these difficult times, when we are wanting teachers, we should have this for those going into the training colleges.

asked the Minister of Education the total number of retired teachers receiving pension; and on what basis she has calculated that it would cost an additional £1 million to enable those who wish to have their pension paid monthly instead of quarterly as at present.

asked the Minister of Education if she will give full details of how the extra cost of £1 million per annum for paying teachers pensions monthly instead of quarterly is made up.

asked the Minister of Education whether her estimate of £1 million as the extra cost involved in paying retired teachers' pensions monthly, on application, rather than quarterly, is based upon the assumption that all retired teachers would apply for this concession.

The number of teacher pensioners in England and Wales at the end of last month was 73,863. The estimated additional charge which would fall on my Vote if all these teacher pensioners had their pensions paid monthly instead of quarterly would be of the order of £1 million in the year of change because in that year many of them would be receiving sums equivalent to 13 or 14 monthly payments. In addition there would be a continuing increased charge for the administration by the Paymaster-General of the greatly increased number of payments that would need to be made.

The Minister has been talking about a shortage of teachers. Even if this were correct, does she not appreciate that the teachers' salaries are not and never have been sufficient to save enough to support them in old age; and if they are entitled to a pension, why cannot they have it monthly like other people? If she will not attend to this, how can she encourage young people to enter the teaching profession, when they are discriminated against like this?

If the hon. Gentleman will look again at the scheme for teachers' pensions he will find that, in addition to the quarterly pension, when the teacher retires he or she gets a lump sum. Therefore, if they choose to use some of that lump sum in the first quarter they still continue to have a quarter's pension in advance. If the hon. Gentleman will look at it he will see that the payments are agreed by the large proportion of teachers as the best scheme, with the lump sum which does not occur in most of the other pension schemes.

Does not the right hon. Lady think that £1 million to make out cheques and envelopes in triplicate is an excessive amount of money? Surely this might be looked into again. I agree with my hon. Friend that many teachers have little money to keep them going, and depend largely upon their pensions. Everything should be done to enable them to have their pensions monthly instead of quarterly.

I quite agree, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I have looked at this very carefully. It would mean a great increase in the number of staff to deal with it. If it were not for the fact that when the teacher retires there is that lump sum there would be much more of a case for thinking that the pensioner might be out of pocket, but if we give the lump sum on retirement and then pay quarterly we can deal with these difficult cases.

asked the Minister of Education if she is aware that the York City education authority has withdrawn all its grants for adult education in the city; and what action she proposes to take in the matter.

Yes, Sir. I have already told the authority that I fully agree with their policy of effecting economies but that I regret that they have taken the drastic action on which they have decided in this matter.

But did not the right hon. Lady say in her original circular to local authorities that she did not want them to economise on the essential fabric of education? Did not the 1944 Act lay upon local education authorities an obligation to provide adult education facilities and will she not, therefore, do something much more positive in the way of asking local authorities not to economise in this field?

As I have already said, I have communicated with the local authority. The hon. Gentleman is probably aware that there are certain direct grants from the Ministry to adult education.

Is not the right hon. Lady aware that direct grants from the Ministry do not compensate the voluntary organisations for the loss of grant from the local education authority?

It does not compensate them because they get that in addition. The local authority contribution is in addition to the grant.