asked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to abolish the 20 m.p.h. limit for certain commercial road vehicles and standardise the speed limit at 30 m.p.h.

I am impressed by the arguments for increasing the speed limit for certain commercial goods vehicles from 20 to 30 m.p.h., but I do not consider it opportune to propose such a change at the present moment.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that manufacturers' organisations, the trade union and the Committee on Road Safety, together with representative opinion on both sides of this House in the last Parliament, gave general assent to the abolition of this 20 m.p.h. limit and standardisation at 30 m.p.h.; and in view of these considerations would not my right hon. Friend consider more speedy action in the matter?

I should be very interested and glad to hear of trade union views in favour of this proposal.

Would the Minister consider the present stupidity of allowing human freight to travel at 30 m.p.h. while an unladen vehicle is restricted to 20 m.p.h., with all the dangers that arise from overtaking; and in view of his answer to the first supplementary question, would he not consider, in the interests of general national productivity, bringing the two sides together to negotiate an agreement on the outstanding matters between the employers and the trade union?

I quite agree that it is rather an illogical situation, and I should be delighted to do anything I can, on this and many other issues, to bring all sides together to achieve a sensible solution.

Would the right hon. Gentleman assure us that before he takes any action on the lines indicated by the Question he will first consult the two sides of industry to get their views upon the matter?

Certainly.

asked the Minister of Transport the number of letters and resolutions of protest he has received against the Government's proposals to de-nationalise transport.

The representations I have received vary greatly in their nature and scope. They do not lend themselves to numerical analysis, and it is not therefore practicable to give the figure for which the hon. Member asks.

Is the Minister aware that he will have to take on new staff in the immediate future because hundreds of resolutions are being passed by the workers in this industry? Will he see that they are given consideration?

The hon. Gentleman is wholly mistaken. The arrival of a certain volume of letters has revived in my Department nostalgic memories of what happened when road haulage was being nationalised. A large proportion of the letters received have come from the hon. Gentleman himself, so in his case and all the cases the great "sell out" has not been a best seller.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Transport and General Workers' Union invited all their branches to lobby Tory and Liberal Members of the House of Commons last May against the policy outlined in the White Paper, and that very few, if any of us, have received any representations from any source?

Indeed, I am. The strange similarity in the words of many of these letters suggests that the Socialist Party, while not agreeing on its own intentions, are united in misrepresenting the intentions of the Government.

To allay the uncertainty felt in this industry, can the Minister either confirm or deny reports that he now means to make major changes in his unworkable proposals?

If I made any such statement in reply to the supplementary question, the right hon. Gentleman would be the first to complain.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will arrange to have published, in the form of a White Paper or some other convenient form, the various independent reports for and against the co-ordination of transport, including the 1930 Report of the Royal Commission on Transport, the 1931 Report of the Royal Commission on the Co-ordination and Development of Transport, and the Report of the Conference on Road and Rail Transport in 1932 under the chairmanship of the present Minister of State for Economic Affairs.

No, Sir. I see no sufficient reason for the Government to re-publish in a collection the reports, papers and books on this subject, all of which have already been published.

Is the Minister aware of the fact that there is no one in this country with any knowledge of transport who has a good word to say about the Government's White Paper and policy, and that if he were to publish all these documents he would see that the Government should drop this stupid plan?

The hon. Gentleman is, I think, guilty of a rather unfortunate looseness of language. The question of the co-ordination of transport means two things; either general or special. The general co-ordination we are all in favour of, but as to the special form the co-ordination should take, the experts are, as usual, deeply divided.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the Salter Report is out of print? Is he sufficiently optimistic to suppose that if he had it reprinted its content might serve as a check on the statements of hon. Members opposite about it?

Are we to take it that the Minister has received no letters of protest about his proposals and that the Transport and General Workers' Union, chambers of commerce and others have made no objection?

I have received a great many communications of various kinds, some of which are couched in language quite unacceptable to the hon. Gentleman and dealing with the previous Act, the faults of which we are now undoing. What I am concerned about is that in the new Bill which I shall shortly present to the House I shall have taken account of the changes suggested to me, because, in this as in other fields, we do have regard to public opinion.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a survey of the organisation of transport and the duplication and lack of modern facilities in the industrial area that lies within a 50-mile radius of Manchester, with a view to preparing a plan for the modernisation of all forms of transport.

Before arranging for such a survey I would have to be satisfied that the local authorities and others concerned wanted it and that its practical results were likely to justify the time and money which would have to be spent upon it. I have little evidence on either point at present.

Does not the Minister agree that this is one of the most important industrial areas in the country, and that it is making a great contribution to Britain's economic recovery? In view of that, does he not consider that, just as the industry is improving its facilities, so the travelling facilities for the workpeople in the area should also be improved?

I do, indeed. As I said last week, Manchester has led the way in railway, canal and airport construction, and I shall be glad to listen to any local representations that are made.

asked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been drawn to the practice of carrying children in the open luggage boots of private cars; and whether he will take steps to make such practices illegal in the interests of road safety.

One instance of children travelling in the way mentioned has been brought to my notice. I do not think this is a common practice and I consider that the good sense of parents and the existing law are an adequate safeguard.

While this may not be a common practice, if such an instance has been brought to the Minister's notice and he finds that it can legally be done, will he take action to see that this practice is made illegal?

The practice is extremely foolish and highly dangerous. The hon. Gentleman may be aware that Regulation 72 (3) of the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations, 1951, provides that

"No motor vehicle or trailer shall be used for any purpose for which it is so unsuitable as to cause or be likely to cause danger to any person on the vehicle or trailer or on a road."

Cases of this kind are, I believe, covered by the Regulation.

Do I take it that action could be taken in such a case?

Yes.

asked the Minister of Transport if he has yet reached a decision on the appeal to him against the granting of licences to Northern Roadways to operate services between Scotland and London.

No such appeal has yet been lodged.

Under what authority are Northern Roadways now operating these services, as their licences were revoked and backing has not yet been granted by the Metropolitan licensing authority for the new licences which were applied for?

I must have notice of the exact form of that question. I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that the licensing authority for the Scottish area published its decision on 4th October, that the time limit for appeals expires on 4th November and that no appeal had been lodged against it up to mid-day today. These licences require backing by the Metropolitan licensing authority and the applications are being heard today.

Is it not the practice to refrain from operating services until backing has been received? Are not these services being operated illegally at present?

As I said, I must consider the terms of the hon. Gentleman's question, of which I had no warning, before I give him a definite answer on that point. I have traced out the sequence of dates between the two licensing authorities in this very complicated matter.

Is the Minister aware that if a licence has been issued but has not received backing these services cannot be operated, and that Northern Roadways are operating services without backing?

I have nothing to add to my answer.

asked the Minister of Transport which of the road haulage depots he has visited does not provide traders with a speedy individual and specialised service; and for what reasons.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will indicate which depots of British Road Services he has visited since taking up office; and what were the standards of working and operation he discovered in them.

I have visited various depots since taking up office and these visits have confirmed my previous impression that all ranks in the Road Haulage Executive are doing all they can to discharge their responsibilities within the framework of the Transport Act, 1947, and to provide trade and industry with satisfactory services.

Whether better services could not be provided by private enterprise rather than by a centrally controlled organisation is quite another matter.

Does the Minister recognise that the words "speedy individual and specialised service" are those used in the White Paper as being inapplicable to the Road Haulage Executive, and that they were not able to provide those services for trade and industry? May I take it that the answer to my Question is that he has not found a single illustration of where a depot was unable to provide a speedy, individual and specialised service?

Much of the information on which I relied comes from the volume of correspondence that was received by the late Administration, but I have information from many other sources on which to make up my mind.

Does not the Minister recognise that a great many of these complaints, when investigated, are found to have another side to them and will he not look at the folly which he proposes to introduce again to the House and do away with it?

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the necessity to increase the capital expenditure on the British Transport system: and what steps he is taking to achieve this end.

Yes, Sir. In common with many other vital services, the British Transport Commission's capital expenditure has still to be restricted, but the needs of transport are fully recognised and the provision for capital investment in 1953 allows for an increased expenditure compared with that in 1952.

Could the Minister say what he means by increased expenditure, because the cost of some services is going up and it might mean that no more work is being done? Is it not obvious to the Minister that unless we regard the transport system as the first part of our industrial equipment we cannot get the optimum results from the nation's economic life and that something more should be done quickly?

By increased expenditure I mean the money required for more materials, but I must point out that last year, unhappily, due to a shortage of materials, the Commission were not able to use all their allocation of capital?

Is this necessity for further capital expenditure one of the results of nationalisation?

Could the Minister say how much capital investment will be duplicated because of the proposal to denationalise road haulage?

Certainly. There will be no duplication, but a general improvement in the economic efficiency of the industry.

Does that mean that the Minister has failed so far to take into account the fact that the railways will have to have additional capital investment if they are to be fully competitive?

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he now proposes to take to reduce road fatalities and injuries following recommendations made by the Committee on Road Safety of his Department and other interested bodies.

Three million pounds are being spent this year and next year to improve the roads at accident black spots. My right hon. Friends the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland hope, with the co-operation of local authorities, for an increase in the number of adult patrols for school children and I propose to have the Highway Code redrafted in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee on Road Safety.

These measures, together with others such as the improvement of the zebra crossings by lighting the beacons, will, I hope, maintain the present downward trend in the road accident figures.

Has not my right hon. Friend omitted reference to a vital consideration which I have been endeavouring to impress upon him for months past? What about the question of the rear lights of commercial vehicles, their height from the ground, and having a minimum standard of glow in order that they may be more readily apparent in darkness?

My hon. Friend's zeal in this matter is very commendable and I welcome it, but there are, of course, different views as to the best way of achieving the same object, and those views are under searching headlights.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consult the Committee on Road Safety about the risk that is being taken by the deterioration of road traffic vehicles and the competition on the roads which is likely to follow the introduction of his new transport proposals?

I think the argument advanced by the right hon. Gentleman is a complete non sequitur.

asked the Minister of Transport what further consideration has been given to the widening of Mount-blow Road, and to the reconstruction of the road bridge, in the Burgh of Clydebank, in view of the fact that increasing motor traffic over this bridge is becoming an increasing danger to users.

This proposal has recently been reconsidered, but my right hon. Friend regrets that it is not at present possible to allow it to proceed.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that there is grave concern about this on the extreme west of Clydebank; that there is only one road which passes over a very narrow humpbacked bridge, which is being increasingly used by light motor traffic; that the estate population of over 3,000 have to use this narrow bridge, which is becoming a grave source of danger; and that in view of the reply sent to me the local authority in Clydebank are very disturbed by the fact that the Minister does not seem willing to grant permission to widen and to strengthen this bridge until such time as a large enough number of people in his estimation have been maimed or killed before he will recognise it as a danger spot? It is a serious danger spot.

There are, unhappily, large numbers of these cases throughout the country. The short answer is that there are no funds at present available for this purpose. I should be very pleased to discuss the matter with the hon. Gentleman after Questions, if he so desires.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will allow preliminary work to proceed at once on the proposed high level bridge at Barton, Eccles; and if he will allow Taylor Brothers Steelworks and Partington Steelworks to tip their slag to form the embankment for the bridge.

The Lancashire County Council, who are the highway authority, are at liberty to undertake the preparation of plans and similar preliminaries on their own responsibility. My right hon. Friend's approval has not been sought for any constructional work.

As regards the tipping of slag, I understand that the ground concerned has not yet been purchased for highway purposes.

Does the Minister not agree that the County Council are of the opinion that in the national interest the building of this bridge should have the highest priority? Is he not aware that it is very desirable that this road should be repaired as soon as possible, and will he not agree to give a yearly grant to enable the preliminary work to be done?

asked the Minister of Transport what is the estimated total cost of a high level road bridge over the Manchester Ship Canal at Barton, Eccles; and if this urgently required construction will receive high priority in the allowance of capital expenditure.

The estimated cost of this bridge is about £2 million. Its priority in relation to many other schemes will be decided when it again becomes possible to undertake highway works of this magnitude.

Bearing in mind the previous very disappointing reply, may I ask the Minister if he is aware that there has not been one new bridge built over the Manchester Ship Canal in 60 years, whereas there have been eight built over the Thames? Will he receive a deputation from the Lancashire County Council and other representative people so that he may reconsider his reply?

I shall be only too happy to receive any deputation which the hon. Gentleman may bring. I trust that he was equally active between the years 1945 to 1951.

If the hon. Gentleman would look up the records, he would find that I was.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that many of the "Halt" and "Go Slow" signs in the country have not been modified in accordance with the revised form as indicated in the Highway Code, where it is shown that the apex of the triangle in this sign should be at the bottom and not at the top of the circle; and whether, in view of the fact that it is not possible to prosecute motorists who fail to conform with incorrect signs, he will issue an early directive to all highway authorities instructing them to alter any incorrect "Halt" or "Go Slow" signs under their jurisdiction without delay.

"Halt" and "Slow" signs of the old type are still legal if they were erected before 14th June, 1950, when the current regulations came into operation.

Considering that road safety depends very largely on strict adherence to the Highway Code, does not the Minister agree that it is very undesirable to have this mix-up in road signs, and will he ensure that in the new version of the Highway Code the illustrations contained therein are in accordance with the road signs on the road or, alternatively, that the road signs are made to conform with those in the Code?

I assure my hon. and gallant Friend that we hope to standardise all these signs in due course. If, in the meantime, he has any specific case in mind, I shall be very pleased to look into it.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will consider the desirability of setting up turnpike roads in Britain on the lines that have been successful recently in the United States of America.

No, Sir. Circumstances in this country differ in many respects from those in the United States.

In view of this most disappointing and unimaginative reply, would not my hon. Friend ascertain from the United States that both safety and speed are increased, and taxpayers' and ratepayers' money saved, by this admirable development? Will he not at least inquire into it because of its great potential advantage to our country?

We have inquired into this matter. The tolls estimated to be necessary in this country would be considerably higher per mile than those in the United States owing to the greater cost of land and because we have in this country more roads in relation to the size of the country and its population than exist in the United States. That is why I pointed out that the circumstances differ.

Would the Minister publish a measured reply to this Question, because many who have seen these roads in the U.S.A. feel that it would be well to be in touch with this development?

In view of the Minister's reference to the difference between conditions in this country and the United States, will he ensure that American army drivers are acquainted with the elements of the British Highway Code because recent court-martial proceedings showed that they were not even aware of the 20 m.p.h. limit for 5-ton motor lorries?

That is another question.

Does my hon. Friend's reply really mean that the Government are opposed to the idea of having tolls upon the road?

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the inconvenience caused to those inhabitants of Whitchurch, Oxfordshire, who work in Pangbourne and in Reading, by the continuance of the toll bridge over the Thames; and whether he will take steps to free this bridge from toll.

My right hon. Friend realises the inconvenience caused by all toll bridges, but with the pressing need to restrict Government expenditure he is unable to make grants towards the cost of extinguishing tolls at the present time.

Does my hon. Friend realise that his reply conflicts with the answer he gave a few moments ago and that it will give great dissatisfaction to my constituents? How would he like to have to pay 2d. or 3d. every day on his way to work?

There is no conflict. I said that we were anxious to close toll bridges where possible and when possible. At present we are concentrating what funds are available on road improvements at accident black spots, which, we believe, deserve high priority.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in order to bring a greater sense of urgency to the publication and consideration of road accident figures, he will arrange for the main figures showing the number of persons killed, seriously injured or slightly injured to be issued week by week instead of month by month as at present.

No, Sir. Any advantage which more frequent publication might have would be outweighed by the extra labour and expense which would be required.

Are there not killed on the roads every week nearly as many people as were killed in the recent railway disaster? Is not frequent publicity the best possible means of obtaining a vigilant road safety campaign?

I agree entirely with my hon. and gallant Friend, but to publish weekly figures would mean extra pressure on the limited police manpower and extra staff in the Department. I believe the House will agree that figures published weekly might not have the same impact on public opinion as those which appear once a month, which receive great publicity.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that the routes out of London leading to the chief provincial towns and cities are still inadequately signposted; and if he will make a statement as to what progress has been made with the experiment for improving such signposting.

A working party under the chairmanship of the Department's divisional road engineer and representing the main interests concerned was set up in September, 1950, to prepare a plan for the signposting of London, which was considered by the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee on 17th October last.

When my right hon. Friend has studied the Committee's recommendations he will decide what action should be taken.

While the lack of progress is rather disappointing, is it not likely that in directing people in the "Right direction" this Government will be more successful than the last one was?

I can tell my hon. and gallant Friend that we received the Report only a week ago, and that the promptitude of my right hon. Friend is, of course, proverbial.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that the attraction of light industry to central Fife is hampered by the lack of a Forth road bridge; and whether, in view of the rapidly growing importance of the developing Fife coalfield, he will take immediate steps towards furthering the construction of such a bridge.

My right hon. Friend is aware that this project would benefit many interests, but in present economic circumstances it is impossible to give any indication as to when it will be possible to allow it to proceed.

Is the Minister aware that this answer is now growing very long whiskers? Is he further aware that Fife will be very soon the most important coalfield in Scotland; that this bridge has been in contemplation now for more than 100 years; and that Scotland is getting heartily sick of the same sort of answer?

I am aware of those facts, but the hon. Gentleman would recall that on 26th October, 1948, which, after all, is not 100 years ago, the Forth Road Bridge Joint Board were informed by the Government of the day that they had agreed to this scheme being brought to contract at a later stage on the clear understanding that, in view of present economic conditions, it would be a number of years before constructional work could be considered. Grants totalling £230,000 have so far been authorised towards the cost of preliminary work, and I am afraid that beyond that we cannot go at present.

Is the Minister aware that unemployment in Scotland then was rather less than half what it is now, that young women and girls in Fife are finding it impossible to get a job because there is no light industry, and that the construction of this bridge would help very much?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in addition to the Fife coalfield great developments are also taking place in the Lothians and that that part of the country will soon become very densely populated, with tremendous industry? Would he make sure that, while taking into account the economic difficulties of the country and the lack of steel, plans are brought to such a point that if a slackening of employment takes place, or there is any reduced demand for steel, the work can go ahead without delay?

We are as anxious to go forward with the work as the right hon. Gentleman was when he was Secretary of State for Scotland.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that this project, unlike many others, is backed by the finances of the County of Fife and the City of Edinburgh, and that this is really an important aspect in considering the use of economic resources?

Would the Minister bear in mind that whereas there is at least an existing railway bridge over the Forth, there is no bridge at all over the Humber, and will he keep that in mind when considering priorities?

I recall that the right hon. Gentleman and I went on a deputation on that subject to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) and we drew a blank.

asked the Minister of Transport what action he proposes to take to remedy the deficiency of steel required for urgent port works.

The Government are fully aware of the need of steel for urgent port works, and recognise this, so far as the general steel shortage permits, in the allocations made to such works.

Has the Minister considered the report of the Ports Efficiency Committee, which especially mentions this, and will he urge the Minister of Supply to give a measure of priority to these urgent projects?

I have read the two reports with the greatest possible care, and I think that my noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Co-ordination of Transport, Fuel and Power may be making a statement about them shortly.

asked the Minister of Transport what is causing the delay in shipping goods to Mombasa; and what action is being taken to improve the situation.

The facilities for discharging and clearing cargo at Mombasa are insufficient to handle all the traffic that is now offering for the port, and, to avoid serious congestion and delays to shipping, it has been necessary to introduce a system of phasing the arrival of cargoes.

Extensive developments of the port are planned by the East African Administration, some of which are already in hand and are resulting in increased shipments, but complete removal of the present restrictions will not be possible until the port has been expanded considerably.

Does the Minister appreciate that there is at present a delay of eight to nine months, that some goods ordered before Christmas are not yet called forward for shipment, and that 75 per cent. of the shipping space is used by Government and allied Departments?

I am not quite sure what the exact proportions are, but I know that all those concerned agreed in February, 1952 that the present system of phasing, though no one likes it, was essential under present circumstances.

asked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made in the investigation into dealing with the nuisance of oil pollution of the shore by discharge from vessels.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Members for Canterbury (Mr. Baker White) and Newport (Mr. Peter Freeman) on Monday, 20th October.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the considerable hardship to people who go to the seaside, and the harm that is done to birds and fish, by oil pollution? Will he take every step that lies in his power, with the shipping companies, to try to prevent it?

Without making any promise I can say that I hope that in this, as in every other respect, next summer will be an even better one.

Does the Minister recognise that this problem is reaching serious dimensions in some coastal areas, not excluding Scotland, and that it is no use local authorities treating their sewage before disposing of it in the sea if their work is to be ruined by the oil which accumulates on the beaches?

Is it not a fact that prevention is not possible without international agreement? While the Government are doing their utmost to secure that international agreement, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend is satisfied that the facilities at the ports for dealing with sludge are such as to encourage ships to use them?

That is one of the points to which the committee are directing their attention.

asked the Minister of Transport whether the official inquiry into the Harrow train disaster will be opened at all sessions to members of the public and the Press.

Yes, Sir, at all formal sessions at which witnesses are examined.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the importance of giving the maximum publicity to these inquiries, particularly in view of the deplorable and scandalous innuendoes contained in a front page article in the "Sunday Pictorial" recently which made allegations against the Minister's tribunal, suggesting that it would whitewash the inquiry and fob the public off with scapegoats or excuses, and, at the same time, proceeded to blacken all grades of railway servants in connection with the Harrow railway disaster before the inquiry had been held?

I am sure that the overwhelming mass of opinion in this country is in favour of the procedure which has been adopted and will await with patience and anxiety the publication of the Chief Inspecting Officer's report.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make it as widely known as possible that he and this House deplore that kind of article while a case is sub judice?

I am always reluctant to comment on an article without having the article in front of me, but I know that the procedure adopted by the Government, which, I think, would have been adopted by its predecessors, commends itself to everybody's good sense. The interim statement the Chief Inspecting Officer was very welcome and has done something to reassure public opinion.

asked the Minister of Transport whether automatic train control of the improved type referred to by the then Minister of Transport in his reply to the hon. Member for Kidderminster on 2nd July, 1951, is in use on the London Midland Region's main line Euston—Rugby, including the Harrow and Wealdstone section; to what extent the automatic signalling and control arrangements exclusively employed by the former Great Western Railway have been adopted and installed by other regions of British Railways; and how the accident rate of the Western Region during the last five years compares with the London Midland Region.

No system of automatic train control is in use on the main line between Euston and Rugby.

The system in use on the former Great Western Railway has not been installed on any other region of British Railways.

Information regarding the numbers and types of railway accidents on British Railways is given, region by region, in the annual reports of the Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways. I will send copies of these reports for 1950 and 1951 to my hon. Friend. I am informed that during the four years 1948–51 for each fatal passenger casualty in a train accident on the London Midland Region, nearly 18 million passengers were carried. During the same period there were no fatal passenger casualties on the Western Region.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that 25 years ago the then Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways, Sir John Pringle, presiding over a Committee appointed by my right hon. Friend's Ministry, strongly recommended the extension of the Great Western system of automatic train control and signalling to all main lines in the country, and that on 2nd July, 1951—only 14 months ago—the Minister of Transport gave me the following reply in this House:

"The automatic train control system of the old Great Western Railway Company has not been altered, and the wider extension of automatic train control of an improved type, which is now under large-scale experiment, has been accepted as desirable by the British Transport Commission."—[OFFICTAL REPORT, 2nd July. 1951; Vol. 489, c. 1880–81.]

In those circumstances, may we inquire what has been done during the last 16 months?

I have no doubt that the whole matter of automatic train control will pass under the most search-inv review by the Chief Inspecting Officer.

If there has been any slackness or neglect in this respect in the past, is it not because the privately-owned railways did not extend the system?

I am sure that most of us would deplore any attempt to fasten blame on any one ideology, or the other. The whole matter will be exhaustively examined by the Chief Inspecting Officer, and I urge the House to wait until his report is completed.

Is it not the case that the system employed by the Great Western Railway is not necessarily likely to be suitable on lines which are frequently interfered with by snow?

That has been said in some quarters, and that is the sort of matter upon which I rely on Colonel Wilson's judgment.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will direct the British Transport Commission, under Section 4 of the Transport Act, 1947, to consider the desirability of making obligatory on all British main line railways the safety device known as automatic train control at present in use only on Western Region.

No, Sir. I am awaiting the report of the Chief Inspecting Officer. I should point out, however, that the British Transport Commission are giving immediate consideration, in the light of experiments which have been going on for some time, to the initiation of a practical programme for the extension of automatic train control on British Railways.

In considering any alternative schemes of automatic train control, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the Great Western system of warning continues to operate in the event of an electrical failure?

I am sure that no review will ever leave in any doubt the great obligation we are under to the pioneers of the Great Western Railway for the work they did.

asked the Minister of Transport if, in connection with the recent railway accident at Harrow, he will use his statutory powers regarding investigation of accidents to inquire and report when the first practical use of automatic train control was adopted on the former Great Western and London Midland and Scottish Railways; and if he will also inquire and report into the reasons for the slow extension of the system throughout the main trunk lines of British Railways.

The two points to which the hon. Member refers are receiving the attention of the Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways during the course of his inquiry into the recent accident at Harrow, and they will be dealt with in his report.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that that report will be placed in the Library for the information of all hon. Members, because it is a very important matter in view of the prolonged delays that have taken place in the extension of this system of safety? Is the Minister also aware that over the years many disasters have been caused as a result of the absence of this system, and that it is most important that action should be taken to speed it up?

I and my predecessors for 80 years have been under the statutory obligation to make these reports public, and I will give this report the widest possible publicity.

As Questions Nos. 23, 25 and 28 deal with the same subject, would it not have saved the time of the House if the Minister had answered them together, as is the general practice?

They do not deal exclusively with the same point. Although they deal with the same tragic disaster, they concern different aspects of it, and I thought, in view of the frightful loss of life and the immense importance of this subject, that it was worth while to take up the time of Parliament a little longer to deal with it.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the large order for wagons being placed by the British Transport Commission with private firms, while railway workshops are short of work and railway shopmen redundant; and if he will take steps to secure an adequate allocation of steel to British Railways in order that railway workshops may be fully employed.

This order is in line with normal railway policy of building a proportion of their wagon requirements in private shops. Private wagon manufacturers are subject to the same procedure of allocation of available steel supplies as the railways. I expect that there will be an increase in the allocation of steel to the British Railways workshops for the period beginning 1st January, 1953.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that welcome news for next year, may I ask how he accounts for the fact that private firms apparently have a sufficient supply of steel to take upon themselves quite abnormal and exceptional orders for railway wagons? Does it not rather imply that their allocation of steel is rather more than their normal requirements?

They are not getting an extra, abnormal allocation of steel. In a later Question, though it is from a different angle, I shall deal with the same point again.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the fact that privately-owned railway wagon building shops are being fully employed on orders for British Railways while railway-owned shops are under-employed because of a shortage of steel; and if he will take steps to secure a larger allocation of steel for railway purposes.

No, Sir. My information is that the privately-owned railway wagon building shops are, I am sorry to say, still working well below capacity.

On the matter of the railways' steel allocation, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I have given today to the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks).

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the White Fish Authority's rejection of the flat rate transport scheme, he will require the Transport Tribunal, under Section 80 of the Transport Act,. 1947, to review the charges for long distance freight traffic, with a view to introducing an extended scheme for tapering charges.

Until there is a merchandise charges scheme in operation, I have no powers under this Section. Whether the present taper in rail merchandise charges should be increased or reduced is one of the many important issues likely to be discussed before the Transport Tribunal when the draft Merchandise Charges Scheme is considered by them.

Has my right hon. Friend given consideration and support to such an idea? Is he aware that the abandonment of the traffic equalisation scheme caused a great deal of concern in Aberdeen and fishing ports in the North of Scotland, and that if they are to produce fresh fish in southern markets it is essential to alleviate the handicap of very great freight charges?

I am very glad to know that this matter has come before the Commission as the result of a deputation led by the Chairmen of the Committee on Highland and Transport Costs, and that consideration was given to the point of view advanced. My constitutional position is defined by statute.

Will the Minister ponder well the opinion expressed by the White Fish Authority that while the flat rate was introduced in the public interest it will prove unworkable unless both rail and road transport remain in public hands?

Is not the answer which the Minister has just given similar to answers which have been given in the last two or three years? Will not my right hon. Friend take action to remove these penal rates from the shoulders of the people who live in the far north?

The law lays down precisely the point at which the Minister enters, in a discussion of this kind. I have pointed that out. In reply to the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Younger), whatever the views of the Corn-mission, I am sure that those of us who are consumers of fish are very glad that its catching and landing are not in public hands.

Is the Minister aware that, so far as traffic from Aberdeen is concerned, negotiations are already going on with the Scottish transport division of British Road Services? Will he see that whatever he may do in the forthcoming Bill he does not interfere with the very good arrangements between the Road Transport Executive and Aberdeen fisheries for the distribution of fish?

I shall have to look at those rates first.

asked the Minister of Supply what progress has been made in the production of the twin-engine 14 seater helicopter, the Bristol 173; and what encouragement his Department is giving to ensure that it is available for passenger services as soon as possible.

Two prototypes of the Bristol 173 helicopter ordered some time ago by the Ministry of Supply are now completed, and flight tests are proceeding. I have recently ordered three further prototypes incorporating various improvements. Production plans will depend on what orders are received by the firm.

Can my right hon. Friend arrange for an early trial flight over the ideal route for helicopters, the triangle Birmingham—Liverpool—Manchester?

asked the Minister of Supply what encouragement his Department is giving to the production of a 45-seater or even larger helicopter; and what are the prospects in this connection.

The Ministry of Supply has placed contracts with a number of firms for design studies and development work; but it will be several years before helicopters of this size could be in production.

is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the recent dinner of the Helicopter Association there was much comment about the lack of enthusiasm in Government Departments, whose minds are not working fast enough in connection with the development of helicopters? Can we be assured that they will have another look at the subject?

I entirely share the enthusiasm of the hon. Gentleman for helicopters. I used to fly one myself years ago. All I can say is that there has been a certain lack of enthusiasm for helicopters in recent years and that I am trying to rectify it.

Is it not a fact that the House has never yet been told the cost of a helicopter? How can we be enthusiastic about something of which we do not know the cost?

asked the Minister of Supply if he will consider arranging an annual air display on the lines of that at Farnborough, in the North or North Midlands so that the aircraft workers in those areas can see the finished products of their work in operation.

I agree that it is desirable to show our latest types of aircraft in the Midlands and the North, and I am considering with my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Air what arrangements can be made.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that most encouraging reply, may I ask him to bear in mind the outstanding claims of Manchester to stage a display of this kind?

I do not make a promise, but we shall do what we can. I ought to point out that the Farnborough show was essentially a trade show, organised by the manufacturers, and that it has to be near London. I will see what can be done to show off these newest planes in the North and in the Midlands.

When the right hon. Gentleman says "show off" these latest types of planes, will he bear in mind that there is some public disquiet at the incidence of aerobatics in these displays, and that what the public want to see are the planes in ordinary, typical flight?

I think that that is what is done, but to show the performance of planes we have to show what they can do.

If it is in order to make bids for suitable sites for displays, may I make one for Sheffield?

asked the Minister of Supply why, in the interests of security, he has appointed a leading member of the Communist Party to the Heavy Electrical Plant Consultative Council, seeing that the members of the Council have access to confidential information regarding national defence and economic planning.

I understand that my hon. Friend is referring to the appointment of Mr. Frank Foulkes to the Heavy Electrical Plant Consultative Council. The Council is composed of representatives of various organisations by whom they are nominated. Mr. Foulkes was appointed on the nomination of the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions. It was not a new appointment, since Mr. Foulkes has been a member of this body for a number of years.

No information involving any security risks is communicated to this Council.

Mrs. Braddock.

On a point of order. I rose to my feet as quickly as possible, Sir.

I am sorry if I was too quick for the hon. Member. I looked in his direction and I did not see him make any effort to rise, so I called the next Question.

asked the Minister of Supply whether, in view of the method and extent of redundancy in the Aeronautical Inspection Directorate and of the number of jet aircraft crashes taking place, he will give an assurance that this Department can operate efficiently with such a depleted technical staff.

No reduction in the technical staff of the Aeronautical Inspection Directorate has been made.

Will the Minister make further inquiries, because my information is that this Department has been cut severely? In view of the fact that it is responsible for the maintenance of and attention to jet aircraft, would it not be dangerous if the staff were depleted to the extent which it is suggested it has been?

The hon. Lady is quite correct about the importance of the Department. I am quite correct in saying that no cuts have been made.

Is it not wrong to say that this Department is responsible for the maintenance of jet aircraft when it is only responsible for investigation?

For inspection.

asked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that in the motor car industry the best incentive to economy would be an increase in home production, in order to use plants to the fullest extent and so reduce costs and, therefore, export prices; and if he will, therefore, reconsider the allocation of cars for the home market.

I am aware, of course, that the volume of output has an important bearing on costs and prices. Motor manufacturers are, at the request of the Government, endeavouring to export as many vehicles as possible. However, in view of the current restrictions in important overseas markets, the Government recognise that the export targets set may in the immediate future be difficult to achieve in full and that, in consequence, a somewhat larger proportion of the industry's output may for the time being have to be sold on the home market.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, which will be very encouraging to motor manufacturers in the Midlands, may I ask if he is aware that in the factories the only thing which has been restricting the workers from a larger output has been the shortage of materials? We are glad to hear that this matter will be dealt with insofar as increased costs may well be reduced by full employment in the industry.

The shortage of steel has been the great difficulty, but the position is getting easier. The allocation to the motor car industry has been increased for the fourth quarter of the year and I do not believe that steel supplies will, in the near future, be a major limiting factor on the output of motor cars.

May I ask the Minister how many more cars this is likely to mean for the home market?

I cannot possibly say.

Is there likely to be a further announcement on the matter? Is it being discussed with the Motor Advisory Council or has a final decision been made?

As I explained, we still want the motor industry to export as much as possible, but in view of the recently increased difficulties caused by restrictions abroad we recognise that in the immediate future the industry will probably not be able fully to achieve its export target and, therefore, for the time being, will have to sell more on the home market. I am keeping in close touch, through the Advisory Council and by other means, with the motor car industry, and shall continue to watch the position at home and in the overseas markets.

Since steel supplies can now be increased for the fourth quarter for the motor car industry, can they not also be increased for the British Railway wagon departments, which are suffering from a severe shortage of steel?

That is a different question.

Will the Minister bear in mind that much of the materials and men used in the motor car manufacturing industry could be used in the aircraft manufacturing industry? Since the products of that latter industry are much more valuable than the products of the motor manufacturing industry, will the Minister see what can be done to divert materials and men into the more important aircraft manufacturing industry?

The aircraft industry is not at the moment being held up for lack of material.

asked the Minister of Supply if he will arrange a visit of hon. Members to the bacteriological and chemical research station at Porton.

Various establishments of the Ministry of Supply are from time to time visited by the Select Committee on Estimates. Should this or any other Committee set up by the House require to visit the establishments at Porton, I shall be glad to afford all necessary facilities.

Could not these facilities be extended to ordinary Members of Parliament who are not on these committees? Could the Minister tell us why there is this iron curtain of secrecy round this bacteriological research station? Is he aware that last week the Prime Minister complained that a large amount of public money had been spent on the atom bomb without Parliament knowing any-think about it? Is this being repeated in the case of the bacteriological research at Porton?

Visits to any of these establishments inevitably interrupt the work of the senior staff, who have to show people round. I am sure that the House will support me in trying to limit visits to those which are really necessary.

asked the hon. Member for Woolwich, West, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, if he will give figures showing the amount of the deficit for the year ended 31st December, 1951, in the annual accounts of the refreshment Department under the following heads: food and services provided for hon. Members, food and services provided for the Press, food and services provided for the staff, and food and services provided for strangers.

The answer is as follows: food and services provided for hon. Members, £7,334; food and services provided for Press, £3,741; food and services provided for staff, £2,098; food and services provided in dining rooms to which strangers are admitted (these rooms are, of course, largely used by hon. Members). £8,204.

The figures given include wages paid to staff during Recess periods, and overheads for the year, the latter being apportioned pro rata to income.

While thanking the hon. Gentleman for his reply, may I ask if he is aware that when he published the first statement of accounts of the Kitchen Committee in July, the "Evening Standard" published a headline "Commons lose £21,000 feeding Members of Parliament," when it knew that even from the facts given at that time such a statement was false and misleading and damaging? Does he not agree that headlines in the Press ought to bear some relation to the truth? In view of the facts which he has revealed in his statement today, does he not agree that the "Evening Standard" ought to make amends with the truth?

I have no power to influence headlines in the Press.

asked the hon. Member for Woolwich, West, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, to what extent the consumption of fish has increased in the House of Commons since October, 1951.

Since the House resumed the beginning of November, 1951, the consumption of fish in the Refreshment Department has been approximately the same each month.

In view of the fact that the sea at Morecambe was probably polluted recently, will my hon. Friend ensure that no more Morecambe shrimps are supplied but that a good supply of Scarborough lobsters is supplied instead?

asked the hon. Member for Woolwich, West, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, how many week-ends and Saturdays, have been booked for parties at the House of Commons; what staff is recruited to wait on the visitors; how many hours the staff work for these functions; and what arrangements are made regarding the payment to the staff who are on duty.

Since the commencement of the year to date, three Friday afternoons, eight Friday evenings, five Saturday afternoons and four Saturday evenings have been booked for parties. Six further Friday evenings and two Saturday evenings are booked for this year and three Saturday evenings for 1953.

The number of staff required varies with the number of diners. During afternoon functions the staff would be required to work from 11.30 a.m. to approximately 5 p.m. For evening functions, the time varies between 4 p.m. and 5 p.m. to 9 p.m. and 11 p.m. The Member holding the function pays an extra amount per diner. 3s. 6d. to 4s., which is paid out to the staff on duty.

In view of the fact that a trade union rate of wages is paid in this establishment, would the hon. Member make certain that the amount requested in payment from the people who book the Dining Rooms for various functions covers completely the trade union rate that ought to be applied to the people who are there to wait, including an extra amount for time over the ordinary time that they work in this establishment?

This is the first time that I have had any complaint with regard to the payment of remuneration to staff in the Refreshment Department. If the hon. Lady will let me have full particulars, I will investigate the matter, but I do not think the staff of the Refreshment Department are treated unfairly. It should be remembered that during 1951 we paid wages for the full 52 weeks of the year although the House sat only on 29⅖ weeks and that in August and September of this year the permanent staff received from six to seven weeks' full holiday with pay, and, in the remaining two weeks, worked only half time and received full pay.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the House as a whole accepted the terms and conditions upon which we employ this staff and that if there is to be this sort of cheeseparing—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"]—it should not be done by the hon. Gentleman's altering the terms and conditions of employment in this way? Many of us feel that it is quite unfair that he should take it out of the staff.

Neither I, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, nor the Committee as a whole have made any variation in the terms of engagement of the staff of the Refreshment Department. I have said that if the facts are given to me I will investigate them.

rose——

It is after half-past three.