asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence if he is now in a position to say whether the Z Reserve training scheme is to be continued in 1953.

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War on 25th November.

Is it a rule of this House that Ministers only answer on those matters for which they have responsibility? Can we take it that the Secretary of State for War settles this matter, and not the Minister of Defence?

The matter is settled by the Cabinet.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence what is the pension, today, of the widow, without private income, of an Army captain or Royal Naval or Royal Air Force lieutenant whose death was not due to his service; and what was the rate in 1852 and 1914 for the widow of an Army captain or a Naval lieutenant.

£90 a year, if the widow qualifies for Pensions Increase Acts additions. Otherwise it is £50 a year. The corresponding rate in 1852 and 1914 was £50.

Can my hon. Friend say when an announcement will be made about an improvement in these pensions, which announcement was promised before Christmas?

I cannot add to the answer which I gave on 19th November.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he will get himself into very serious trouble with hon. Members on both sides of the House if he does not keep his promise to make a statement about some improvement in this matter before the Christmas Recess?

I am well aware of the feeling which it has aroused.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence by what estimated sum the £2,100,000, which will be the cost in the first year of raising the retired pay of officers who retired before 1st September, 1950, to the rates of those who retired on or after that date, will fall in the following year through death.

On the hypothesis stated in my hon. Friend's Question, about £65,000 at a very rough estimate.

As these officers are largely old or middle aged, does my hon. Friend agree that in subsequent years the decrease will be still more rapid?

Yes; obviously the decrease will increase and will be written off over a period of some 30 years.

Has my hon. Friend got any answer from the Treasury? He promised last week to convey my views on this matter to the Treasury, and I should like to know whether he has heard from the Chancellor on this subject.

I did speak to my right hon. Friend, and I think he is very well aware of the hon. Lady's views on this matter.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence whether he is aware that Royal Warrant 111 which applies the provisions of the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1952, to officers who retired before 1st September, 1950, normally gives no benefit to single officers above the rank of captain or married officers above the rank of major; how many officers will benefit in the first year; and what total increase they will receive.

A number of officers in ranks above Army captain and major, who retired before September, 1950, on less than the standard rates of retired pay then obtaining, will receive the benefit referred to in this Question. As regards the latter part of the Question, the estimated number of officers concerned is 5,550 and the total increase they will receive is about £130,000.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence how far his Department is responsible for answering Questions relating to the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War answers Questions arising out of the policy of the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes, unless such matters are the sole concern of either the Admiralty or the Air Ministry.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that in view of the large sums of money spent by the serving men and women in these Institutes on the facilities, or lack of them, which are provided, it is highly desirable that one Department should be responsible for answering Questions on this subject, instead of making it necessary for hon. Members to play ring-a-roses with the other Service Departments in order to get an answer, which is the case at the moment?

I agree that there may have been misunderstandings, but the principle is, and always has been, that the War Office answers. My noble Friend's Department is not set up to deal with a great amount of administrative detail, and I think it will be generally agreed in the House that it would be wrong if the Department was made to do so.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence what will be the regulations for the wearing of uniform by officers and men of Her Majesty's Armed Forces, both active and retired, when attending the Coronation of Her Majesty next year.

The Earl Marshal's Regulations about the wearing of uniform in the Abbey at the Coronation Ceremony were published in yesterday's London Gazette. The Service Departments will promulgate the dress for those taking part in the procession as soon as possible.

Can my hon. Friend indicate whether some of the more decorative but now no longer valid uniforms, such as full dress, the frock coat and sword and so on, are likely to be regarded as uniform for those taking part in the Coronation other than in the procession?

I think that if my hon. Friend reads the Earl Marshal's Regulations he will see that they can be worn in the Abbey.

Is it intended that the men of the Army who will line the streets through which the procession passes will wear No. 1 dress on that occasion?

I hope there will be a comprehensive statement fairly soon. There are a lot of matters of detail about different regiments and so on, and it is thought better to issue all the orders and regulations at the same time. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will await them.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence to what extent the gradual decline in the number of long-service Regulars of the Army and the Royal Air Force has been arrested since October, 1951; and to what extent this has resulted in saving in excessive dilution and avoiding sending National Service men to the Middle and Far East.

The success of the new short-service Regular engagements in the Army and R.A.F. has resulted in maintaining the proportion of Regulars to National Service men in these two Services during the past year. It is hoped that considerable numbers of these men will extend their engagements and thus maintain the proportion of Regulars of long service.

I was waiting for the Minister to answer the last part of the Question. I have not had a reply to that. Could I have it?

As I indicated in my answer, the proportion is very much the same. The proportion of Regulars in the Air Force in the Far East and Middle East has slightly increased, and much the same applies to the Army.

I should still like an answer to my Question. Does this mean a saving in National Service men in the Middle East and the Far East?

As I indicated, the proportion of National Service men has been maintained and there is no reason to think that there will be any increase.

That is the point. Is the Minister aware of the fact that in the Election manifesto of the Tory Party—"Britain Strong and Free"—it was stated that if the Tory Party got back they would be able to make an improvement and stop sending National Service men overseas? Is it not about time the hon. Gentleman did something about it? My question is taken from the Tory Party manifesto.

Could the Parliamentary Secretary say how many of these Regulars have signed on straight from National Service?

I cannot give any figures without notice.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence to what extent our fighting formations have been increased since October, 1951; how far these increases are due to the pruning of non-essential administrative units; and what was the total of men and women in the three services in October, 1951, and at the latest convenient stated date.

As regards the first part of the Question, I cannot add to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member on 19th November. The increases which have been made have been effected by a variety of measures, including the most rigorous economies in administrative and training units. At 1st October, 1951, there were some 840,000 men and women in the three Services: at 1st November, 1952, the comparable figure was some 873,000.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence what marked deficiency there was in the numbers of young Regular officers, senior non-commissioned officers and technicians in October, 1951, in the Army and in the Royal Air Force; and to what extent this deficiency has been made up during the last 12 months.

In October, 1951, there were in both Services considerable deficiences in the categories referred to by the hon. Member. In October of this year, apart from a distinct improvement in the number of young Regular officers in the Army, these deficiencies still existed in relation to the total size of the Services.

Will the Minister have a look at "Britain Strong and Free"?—because it is stated there quite categorically that when the Tory Party get back they will be able to put all these things right. They have been in office for over 12 months and it appears that they have done nothing about it.

A very great deal of progress has been made. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, the teeth have increased in proportion to the tail of the Army, and the same is true of the Air Force.

Is it not time that the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis) changed his gramophone record and paid some tribute to the magnificent achievements of this Government?

Personally, I think the more hon. Gentlemen opposite read "Britain Strong and Free" the better.

On a point of order. Is it permissible for an hon. Member to direct a question across the Floor of the House to another hon. Member?

In form the question was addressed to me, but I am very glad that the responsibility of answering it was taken by somebody else.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will consult with representatives of the International Bank for Development and Reconstruction and of the Government of Jamaica so as to urge that the report of the Bank's recent mission to Jamaica shall be published either in full, or at least in respect of those parts which are not of a confidential nature as between the Bank and the Government.

There is no need. The Bank intend to publish the Report.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the serious increase in the number of unemployed persons in British Guiana, by comparison with a year ago; of the concern of the citizens at this increase; what steps he is taking to provide alternative employment; and what additional assistance he is providing the Governor, in order to commence schemes of work to relieve the situation.

The number of registered unemployed increased during the past year by some 500 to 2,654. There should be many new opportunities for work, as the development plans for the Colony are carried out. These include extensive drainage and irrigation schemes, initiated under the previous Government, the first of which has been approved at an estimated cost of some £1,600,000. Towards this Her Majesty's Government will grant £900,000 under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will publish the figures showing the incidence of tuberculosis on the Island of St. Lucia; whether he will give the figures for a convenient date for the past five years; and whether he will give comparable figures for other colonial territories.

The cases of tuberculosis notified in St. Lucia for the years 1946 to 1950 were: 1946, 114 cases; 1947, 103; 1948, 138; 1949, 67; 1950, 86. Comparable figures for other Colonial territories are published in the Annual Medical Reports produced by each Colonial Government.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the figures for St. Lucia are higher than for any other comparable territory, and will he do something about it?

I shall certainly give the matter my personal attention.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will now make a statement on the Volta River Scheme.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how soon it is expected that the Preparatory Commission for the Volta River Scheme will begin its work.

I have as yet nothing to add to the information in Cmd. 8702, but a further announcement on the steps to establish the Preparatory Commission will be made as soon as possible.

Will the right hon. Gentleman now give his personal attention to this matter to ensure that the necessary consultation and consideration does not in any way lead to any relaxation of effort on the immediate work on Tema Harbour, which is so vital to the Colony, whatever happens to the final decision with regard to the Volta River Scheme?

I reply to that question with some diffidence, but I think I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance.

As the Minister is no doubt aware, this encouraging work on the Volta project had been going on for some years under the previous Government. May we assume that he will take all possible steps to pilot it to a conclusion as soon as he can?

Her Majesty's Government and the Gold Coast Government have both thought that a Preparatory Commission to carry the technical investigation further is desirable. I think I can say without any doubt that both Governments are anxious to press on with that scheme.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to state the nature of disturbance or difficulties in respect of the Baoma chiefdom in Sierra Leone; how many have been arrested in connection with this matter; and for what offences.

After the election of a Paramount Chief in Baoma in August, I am sorry to say that the supporters of the successful candidate carried out widespread assaults on the supporters of the defeated candidate, and caused considerable damage to property. Thirty-six persons have been arrested and charged with assault, looting and extortion.

Do I now understand, seeing that this took place some time ago, that there is now tranquillity in this area?

I do not think there is anything happening at the moment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what further action has been taken in respect of the Kaeyomba elections in Sierra Leone.

The Governor is at present studying the report of the two Assessor Chiefs who were appointed to verify the credentials of members of the Kaiyamba Tribal Authority. Proposals may shortly be made which should solve the present difficulties.

When will a report be made on that matter?

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a definite date. In a very short time.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he is taking to increase cement production in the Colonial Territories of West Africa.

The Nigerian Government are negotiating with an experienced industrial undertaking about a project for cement production in the Eastern Region which would involve the investment of public funds.

The Gold Coast Government are considering a recent report by consulting engineers on a similar project in the Gold Coast.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies at how many points British colonial territory is occupied by unauthorised parties of foreigners.

There are six Argentine and three Chilean posts in the British Sector of the Antarctic.

Can my right hon. Friend say what steps are being taken to get rid of these trespassers?

The policy of the present Government, as of the previous one, has been to try to get the dispute before the International Court of Justice, but so far this Government have met with no greater success than the last.

Was the right hon. Gentleman consulted when 154 troops were removed from Bermuda and N.A.T.O. forces were allegedly sent there? This is one of the colonial areas about which this House was never informed when the garrison was removed.

That is a different question. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put a Question on the Order Paper.

Will my right hon. Friend say whether it is not a fact that the Argentine Government have refused to recognise the jurisdiction of the International Court in this matter?

That is so. So far, both the Argentine and Chilean Governments have, I think, refused to submit their cases to the Court.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many witch doctors are employed by his Department; and what fees are paid to them for their services.

None, Sir.

Can the Minister say how it is possible under present ordinances for witch doctors to get together more than three natives in Kenya, even if the witch doctors are on the side of the Government? Are these witch doctors members of the Witch Hunters' Union?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will consider instituting some method by which persons deported from a Colonial Territory without any hearing of their case may appeal against such a decision.

Colonial Governments must retain the normal right of all administrations to deport aliens without prior judicial inquiry or subsequent appeal. As stated in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. R. Robinson) on 22nd October, most Colonial Governors have agreed that judicial process should normally be obligatory before a British subject or protected person is deported. Correspondence is proceeding with other Governors. But there must occasionally be cases in which the public interest would not permit the delay involved by an inquiry or appeal.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that in cases such as that of Mr. Peter Wright in Kenya, which prompted this Question, it is a proper state of affairs that a British subject, who has committed no legal offence, should be deported without being given any hearing and without being told at any time directly what the charges are against him; that these charges should have to be elicited piecemeal by means of Questions in this House, and that his only method of replying should be by correspondence published in the public Press. Would he not agree that this is a preposterous way of proceeding?

The hon. Lady is misinformed on many of these matters. This gentleman was a civil servant and precluded from political activities. She will also appreciate that I tried so far as possible not to make information known that would damage the future of the officer concerned, and therefore when I am pressed I am obliged to do so. I think she will understand that there is some difficulty in this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how long it will take the population of Kenya to double itself, basing the estimate on existing vital statistics and trends.

Between 35 and 45 years, but even that wide estimate is given with reserve since existing vital statistics are necessarily sketchy and may prove to have been defective.

In view of the fact that this population question is one which is fundamental in Kenya, and that about three-fifths of the Colony is semi-desert, will the Minister address this point to the Commission he is sending out?

Yes, Sir. The problem of the rapid growth of population is due partly to the absence of tribal warfare under British rule and partly to the skill of the medical profession, and it presents Kenya with one of her most obdurate long-term problems.

Will the population in Kenya be doubled before the Commission is appointed?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how much of the cost of Kenya's post-war 10-year £41 million development plans has been expended up to date.

About £24 million will have been spent by the end of 1952. £17 million had been spent up to the end of 1951.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what facilities are now being afforded to African members of the Kenya Legislative Council to make contact with their people, through meetings and interviews, for legitimate political purposes.

Mr. Mathu, the leader of the African unofficial members, broadcast to the Kikuyu people on 1st December. The fullest possible publicity has been given to his statement, and it has been circulated widely in a variety of languages to Africans throughout Kenya. Also all African members of the Legislative Council have been informed that there is no barrier to their having interviews with their people, but in the present situation large public gatherings cannot be permitted.

Is the Minister not aware that the Governor has announced that facilities for allowing African leaders to have proper political contacts with their people is being given the first priority? Can he say if what he has told us is all that is being done, and will he make sure that the Governor's statement does not mean that there will be attempts to form a Government-sponsored African political party?

I cannot add anything to what I have said. Every facility will be given for spokesmen and leaders to consult their people, but in the present state of law and order large public gatherings cannot be permitted.

What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by large public meetings? Will he not now reconsider the decision in view of Mr. Mathu's broadcast and make arrangements for other members of the Legislative Council to be able to address gatherings of their people and thus provide the Africans with responsible leadership?

No, Sir. I cannot give that assurance. At the present moment it would be taking too large a risk with public safety to permit large gatherings. The House considered this matter very fully last week on the most unfortunate incident which occurred out of a gathering of 2,000 people. I am afraid I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance at present.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that Mr. Mathu's broadcast might have been much more effective had he been urged to make it some four or five weeks earlier?

I saw him when I was there. Whether or not the timing was the best possible is a matter of opinion, but I can say—and I think the hon. Lady will be glad to hear this—that I consider his action to be courageous in the extreme.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the vast majority of the people in this country are entirely behind him in his attitude?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, of those persons in Kenya who have been arrested, screened and not released to date, how many are being, and will be, charged with and tried for crimes; with what crimes they will be charged, respectively; and what provision is being made for their defence by trained lawyers in sufficient time to enable their defences to be fully and fairly presented.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many persons in Kenya have been arrested for screening purposes since the emergency laws came into force; and how many have been subsequently detained or charged.

About 13,000 persons were detained after initial screening. Two thousand were released because there was insufficient evidence against them. Criminal charges have been brought or are pending against the remainder, of whom over 5,000 have been tried and convicted or acquitted.

Every facility is afforded to persons in police custody to consult advocates and contact witnesses.

In addition to those detained after initial screening 183 persons are detained under emergency regulations, of whom 41 were handed over by the Tanganyika Government. Of these six have so far been charged with criminal offences and are now on trial.

I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT details of the charges made and of the conditions under which these persons are detained.

Is the Minister aware that he has not answered the last part of my Question about facilities for defence? Does he agree—as I feel sure he does—that, especially in an emergency like the present emergency in Kenya, it is essential to inspire Africans with respect for law and order, and for that purpose not only should justice be actually and scrupulously done but it should appear to be done? Will he see that adequate facilities are offered to the accused persons for defence by trained lawyers?

I have already answered that question. Adequate facilities for accused persons are available.

Perhaps I did not hear the right hon. Gentleman, but I thought he did not give the number of persons who had been rounded up for screening purposes. Could he give that figure?

I have not those figures. I have asked for them, but I do not think they can be obtained. The 13,000 persons to whom I referred were detained after initial screening, but I have not the figures for the initial screening.

Would my right hon. Friend consider sending out the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes) to defend those people and thus serve a dual purpose of defending these natives and ridding the House of one witch doctor for a few weeks?

On a point of order. May I call attention to the fact that the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) called one of my hon. Friends a witch doctor?

I did not hear that myself, and I should have been doubtful what interpretation to place upon it if I had.

Would it not be out of order if it applied to the hon. and learned Gentleman as being a witch without being a doctor?

I might object to the imputation coming from any other source, but I have nothing but the utmost contempt for the source from which it did come.

Is the right hon. Gentleman yet in a position to give the House any information about the reports from Nairobi now on the tape machine that seven Africans have been killed and eight wounded in a recent raid by the police in Kenya?

I am not in position to make any statement.

I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that 5,000 Africans had been tried. Could he say whether these were all individual trials, or were there any mass trials?

They have been tried and either acquitted or convicted under the usual processes of law.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies for what period the Kenya Penal Code (Amendment) Ordinance, 1952, is in force, which enables a court to prohibit a person convicted of receiving, conveying or possessing stolen property from pursuing a trade or business, for a named period or permanently, if the offence was committed in the course of such trade or business.

There is no time limit to the operation of this Ordinance.

Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that to make this kind of Ordinance a permanent change in the penal code is not really in keeping with the undertaking he gave to the House that controversial legislation should be of only one year's duration and would then lapse? Would he, therefore, assure us that this particular Ordinance will be revoked when the other emergency ordinances come to an end?

No, Sir, I cannot give that assurance, because this is not a controversial piece of legislation.

It is.

No objections to the Ordinance were made when it was considered by the Legislative Council, and the African representative member spoke in support. Moreover, it happens to be modelled upon a section of the United Kingdom Goods and Services (Price Control) Act, 1941, which imposes similar penalties for offences committed under the Act.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies in how many cases, and at what places, have rifles been used by Mau Mau.

I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT some examples of the use of firearms in Mau Mau crimes. The list will not, however, be comprehensive, and I am reluctant to trouble the Government of Kenya for further details in present circumstances.

But is it not the case that the use of rifles by Africans has been sporadic, not organised, and, in view of that, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that it would help events immensely if, instead of using rifles on our side, we were to employ tear gas?

Tear gas, of course, has its uses in dispersing crowds sometimes, but in the open its uses are very limited. Certainly, that suggestion must be borne in mind. With regard to the use of rifles and firearms, I do not think it is of much point whether the use of those arms has been organised or not. I do not think it has. It has been sporadic.

Have there been any cases in which tear gas has been used?

No, I do not think so, because at the present moment large assemblies are against the law, and, except in one or two cases, there has been no occasion.

In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has admitted that the use of rifles is not organised, would he consider the effectiveness of tear gas as a substitute for rifles on our side?

I really think the hon. Member is under a misapprehension. He will see that when he looks at some of the instances that I am going to give, one of which was the murder of the Senior Chief Warahiu. His car was stopped—this must have been organised—and a gunman ran beside him and shot him dead. How could the hon. Gentleman consider the use of tear gas to prevent that?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what provision is made for the proper care and feeding of livestock confiscated in Kenya.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many head of cattle, sheep and goats belonging to people of the Kikuyu tribe have been seized by the Kenya Government; and how many still remain alive.

There are two phases in the collection of livestock under Emergency Regulations; first seizure, and then possible confiscation of the whole, or part. Two orders only for confiscation have so far been made.

In each area concerned special herdsmen were engaged to look after the stock held. In the first area the animals have ample grazing, similar in quality to that on the farms whence they were brought. In the second area they are grazed during the day over 300 acres of pasture and each night held in paddocks in which their feeding is supplemented by cut fodder. Some of the animals seized were in poor condition and a small proportion had to be killed. The final order in this case was for confiscation of only half the stock seized, the remainder being returned.

About 4.7 per cent. of the cattle and about 16 per cent. of the sheep and goats were killed because of their poor condition or died. Death of adult cattle was due to the very poor condition when impounded, and some unweaned calves inevitably died through separation from the cows. Death of sheep and goats was due to sudden torrential rain after very dry weather. Similar losses from the same causes are often suffered by African stock owners.

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen reports from reputable correspondents indicating that there was considerable neglect, at any rate, in the early stages, of these operations? Can he say whether compensation will be paid in respect of the livestock that have died from neglect, since this is the only property, the only livelihood of those very poor people?

I do not think the hon. Gentleman could gather from what I have said that there has been any neglect.

I said from correspondents.

I have given the details of what was done. I should be glad to look into any individual case, but I am at the moment in communication with the Kenya Government on these matters.

I asked the right hon. Gentleman this same question on 25th November, when he was kind enough to say that he had no information but that if I put the Question down he would give me an answer. I have put the Question down but he has not given me an answer. I asked how many head of cattle, and how many sheep and goats have been confiscated. Will he give the House those figures, and tell us how many have died?

The total number of livestock impounded was about 3,500 cattle and about 6,000 sheep and goats. The percentages will give the hon. Gentleman the number that have been either killed or have died.

In view of the fact that these cattle and sheep would be the only wealth available to many of these Africans, will the right hon. Gentleman consider giving full compensation to Africans for any that have died in the process?

There is in contemplation a form of fund, as the right hon. Gentleman knows. As I said, I am in communication with the Kenya Government on these subjects.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to recommend that the proposed Royal Commission to inquire into grievances in Kenya should issue an interim report within six months.

I will mention this suggestion to the Chairman of the Royal Commission. I am sure that if, after consultation with the Governor of Kenya, the Commission were of the opinion that an interim report on any particular matter within their terms of reference was desirable, they would not hesitate to make one. They may, however, feel, as I am somewhat disposed to do, that they could best help by completing, before they submit any report, their study of the wider range of problems affecting East Africa as a whole.

Could the Secretary of State say whether the personnel of the Committee has yet been completed, and when it is proposed that it shall convene and leave for Kenya; does he not realise that the situation in Kenya may not await the issue of a Royal Commission Report, and does that not emphasise the need for an interim report?

I think there is something in that, and I am doing all I can to complete the personnel of the Royal Commission. In fact, I have given instructions that all communications to persons invited are to be made by telegram and not by dispatch. These people are widely dispersed all over the world, and I am afraid it will still take a little time before I can announce the completion.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to make a statement on the conditions in which suspects including women and children, are being detained in concentration camps in Kenya; and for what reason a gallows has been set up in one of these camps.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies for what purpose the gallows in a prison camp at Thomson's Falls have been erected; and whether he will state the circumstances in which executions of local murderers take place.

There are no concentration camps in Kenya and the only gallows erected in the prisons are in Nairobi and at Thomson's Falls.

The conditions under which suspects are detained are as follows. There are two detention camps where 176 persons are detained under conditions similar to those of judgment debtors, except that rations are supplied free. Persons detained in police custody are provided with adequate sleeping accommodation. They are exercised daily and are not manacled while so detained. A morning and evening meal is provided and blankets are issued at night.

In addition, those Kikuyu males who have been evicted from Leshau Ward are being held in Thomson's Falls township, pending other arrangements. By day they are in the open, but at night or during rain shelter is available. They are fed by Government on the same scale of rations as is issued to remanded prisoners. Their women and children are housed in a number of temporary buildings where they feed themselves with food which they brought with them. Water and wood fuel is supplied by Government. All are within 400 yards of the hospital, and are visited daily by an African hospital assistant.

Is it correct, as indicated in photographs, that this gallows has been set up newly in some kind of compound, or enclosure, or camp in which a large number of suspects are herded together, possibly many of them innocent people; and why has this been done? He has not answered either Question: what is the reason?

The only gallows that are erected are erected in prisons. Of course, no public execution takes place in camps. Executions only take place in front of official representatives.

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question.

I have answered the question. There are no gallows erected in concentration camps, but only in prisons. I cannot go further.

Is it not the case that the preliminaries of execution at Thomson's Falls do take place in full view of the internees, who squat round during that period; is this not barbarous, and will the right hon. Gentleman remove unconvicted internees, or alternatively remove the gallows?

I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by "internees." If he means people who are in prison, it may be that they see the gallows. That may be so.

Why should they?

That happens almost everywhere. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Or the building. Up to date every person convicted to undergo capital punishment has been transferred to Nairobi, but now gallows have been erected in Thomson's Falls Prison.

In view of the deep concern felt in the country at reports in the Press daily and answers to Questions, will the right hon. Gentleman not now reconsider the suggestion I have made more than once in discussing this matter, that there should go to Kenya a delegation of all parties of the House; and does he not realise that that would reassure people in this country and, I believe, help people in Kenya?

I will certainly reconsider any suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman, but I must say in all candour that at the present moment I do not think such a delegation would be in the interests of Kenya. I am somewhat surprised that those most anxious for self-government appear at times to be most anxious that we should intervene in these affairs.

Have some of the newspaper dispatches lacked some degree of accuracy?

The suggestion I made does not deal with self-government at all. That was a matter which was discussed when I was in Kenya 18 months ago. The suggestion is to send a delegation from this House of Commons—because we are finally responsible—to go to Kenya, to investigate conditions, and to come back and report, not to intervene in the affairs of the Government there.

I must say quite frankly that I do not think that would at this moment serve a useful purpose. The Government of Kenya are dealing with a very difficult emergency and a series of atrocious crimes, and I should be hesitant to suggest measures such as the right hon. Gentleman now puts forward. I will, however, certainly keep this matter closely in view, and when I think such a suggestion would promote the public interest I will be very glad to accept it.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the most effective reassurance he could give this country and Kenya would be if he resigned?

An impudent remark.

The hon. Gentleman, when he has been a little longer in this House, will know that these bilious comments do him no good.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I wish to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is in a position to estimate the numbers and percentages of the population who are supporting the present campaign of violence in Kenya.

I regret that it is not possible to give any reliable estimate.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that it is essential, in the interests of peace, to distinguish between the friends and foes of peace and civilisation; does he agree that he is not doing that, and will he take steps to see that these people are treated differently?

I cannot be responsible for making estimates of the percentage of the population who are supporting the campaign of violence, which is the Question the hon. and learned Gentleman asked me. There are certainly large numbers who are.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how far his policy of collective punishment in Kenya has extended up to the present; what towns, villages and areas have suffered from it; how many people have been killed and injured by it; and how much further he intends to extend it.

Collective punishment in Kenya imposed since the declaration of a State of Emergency has so far been applied only to two areas, in which no town or village in the English sense has been affected. The first was in one small part of Nyeri district and the second in another small part of Laikepia district. In neither operation is anyone known to have been killed or injured. Whether this policy will be applied to these small specific areas will depend upon the conduct of the Kikuyu.

Does the Minister not agree that this policy of collective punishment is not only unrighteous but ineffective and is alienating the friends of peace, and will he see that the innocent are not punished equally with the guilty or at all?

The hon. and learned Gentleman has tried to answer his own Question. I should not agree with those answers at all. He has been fortunate enough not to be in a community where the ordinary processes of law and order have broken down. In these circumstances, there is no alternative except to impose collective punishment, provided these punishments are confined to small areas where atrocious crimes have been committed.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why there was a three months delay in appointing the new Governor of Kenya.

When the timetable for the departure of Sir Philip Mitchell and the arrival of Sir Evelyn Baring in Kenya was arranged early this year, there was no reason to expect Mau Mau outbreaks on the scale on which they later took place and plans were therefore made in the usual way which allowed for a limited interregnum.

Sir Philip Mitchell left Kenya on the 21st June. In the middle of August the Officer Administering the Government reported that the situation was deteriorating and that he would shortly be introducing measures to deal with it. Sir Evelyn Baring's arrival in Kenya could not usefully have been advanced and I had full confidence in the very capable Officer Administering the Government.

Is the Minister aware that many people believe that he was ill-informed about the state of affairs in Kenya at that time, and that many, both inside and outside the House, believe that much of the mischief now occurring in Kenya was due to the panicking measures of the acting Governor in this interregnum?

There is absolutely no justification whatever for the statement which the hon. Gentleman has made. The panicking measures to which he refers have now long ago been superseded by much more drastic measures which have proved to be necessary.

May I ask why it was that there was such a delay between the retirement of Sir Philip Mitchell and his replacement by Sir Evelyn Baring?

There is nearly always an interregnum between the departure of the retiring Governor and the arrival of the new one. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] That can be gone into another time. There are many reasons for it. The chief reason is that the Colony has to pay twice. Since this particular incident happened, I have taken measures to reduce the period of this interregnum.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when compulsory education between the ages of 12 and 16 in the Northern Rhodesia Copper Belt was abolished; and how many children are now without educational facilities.

Owing to overcrowding and shortage of staff compulsory education for Africans in this area unfortunately had to be suspended in July, 1951. In consequence, about 1,700 children were refused enrolment. All were over age or had no permission from their native authorities to come into an urban area.

Does not the Minister think that this is a very mean action for a wealthy Colony to take? Is he not aware that the copper mines are booming in Northern Rhodesia and that only last year they exported something like £30 million worth of base metals? Does he not think we might spend a little more money and make a little more effort to get education for these youngsters?

I feel some diffidence in answering that question, because these matters took place in July, 1951. I think the reasons which impelled my predecessor to take that decision were not only the question of spending money, but also the fact that there was gross overcrowding taking place and that measures to increase the building of schools would necessarily take time.

Is it not true that Central Africa, although it is the richest part of the African Colonies, is behind the other Colonies in Africa in making provision for higher education?

That may be so, but at any rate efforts are being made to catch up. As I understand it, the present measures had to be approved, with regret, by the right hon. Gentleman himself.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the wealthy mine owners in the Copper Belt of Northern Rhodesia are spending great sums of money in building operations—building hospitals and schools out of their own funds? Is he aware that they are setting an example to the rest of the country?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to give an estimate of the extent to which the proposed Central African federation would involve increased financial burdens and increased taxation in either of the three territories affected.

In the Report of the Fiscal Commission, (Command 8672) para. (14) the annual net additional expenditure required is estimated at £350,000, which would involve no increased taxation in any of the three territories. A further sum would have to be added for defence, but preliminary estimates indicate that it will not materially affect the conclusions in the Report.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what instructions he has given to the High Commissioner of Malaya regarding collective reprisals against Malay villages suspected of harbouring bandits.

No instructions have been given, and none are necessary. As I have previously said, I have every confidence in General Templer's reasonable exercise of the discretion entrusted to him.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that this is a form of punishment in which any military advantages are far outweighed by the damage to our cause throughout the whole civilised world? Does he think it is fair to leave it to General Templer to assess the political consequences of those acts?

This has nothing whatever to do with military matters. This is entirely in order either to bring witnesses forward or, where those atrocious crimes are committed by a small community, to visit those who are guilty of not coming forward and supporting the law with some punishment.

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered whether the system of collective punishment is consistent with the Charter of Human Righs of the United Nations, and, if he has considered that matter, would he say what conclusions he has reached?

The imposition of collective punishment, provided it is confined to a very small area, is in my opinion not a contravention of that Charter.

Does not the Secretary of State agree that the whole history of guerilla warfare, of which there has been a great deal since 1945, shows that the right plan is either to afford protection to the population or else to move them somewhere else where they can be protected?

I could not possibly accept so large a generalisation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of British subjects killed and wounded by bandits in Malaya for the last three months for which figures are available and for the corresponding three months last year.

I understand that the figures wanted by my hon. and gallant Friend are those relating to European civilians. In the three months ending 31st October, 1952, six European civilians were killed or wounded, against 24 during the corresponding period in 1951.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a large body of opinion is extremely grateful to him for the courageous lead he has given in this matter to bring about these favourable figures? I only wish he had been in office earlier.

Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether any of these terrible crimes are covered by the extraordinary phrase he used in a previous supplementary answer that he gave to a previous Question about "crimes committed by the communities"? Does he wish to amend that phrase, or does he really mean that?

If I used that phrase it was quite inadvertent. I meant crimes committed in the communities.

The phrase was "by the communities."

Well, that was a slip of the tongue. I can remember one of these occasions, when a Chinese was shot in a café in front of 200 people, and no witness would come forward to enable the authorities to bring the murderer to trial.

Has the right hon. Gentleman a copy available of the new directive to the Malayan Communist Party referred to in the Press, and would he consider putting a copy in the Library?

I have seen a report of that kind. I will try to meet the right hon. Gentleman's request, but I cannot say how authentic the document is.

If I put a Question down, would the right hon. Gentleman consider, in view of the renewed concentration upon civilian rather than upon military efforts, pushing on quickly with economic and political advances?

The Government's political measures have been pushed on with the utmost speed during the last year. I must tell the right hon. Gentleman frankly, that there is nothing we can do to accelerate them. We have pushed on with them at a much greater rate than ever before in Malaya.