asked the Minister of Labour the average adult wage per shift in the coal mines for piece work and day work at the most recent convenient date; and what were the corresponding wage rates at nationalisation.

Average earnings per shift for adult pieceworkers and day wage men are not separately available; nor are average wage rates. For the week ended 18th October, 1952, the estimated average cash earnings per shift of adult male workers in the coal-mining industry were 43s. 9d. The corresponding figure during the last week in April, 1947, was 26s. 5d. The values of allowances in kind for the corresponding periods (Is. 10d. in October, 1952, and 1 s. 4d. in April, 1947) are not included in these figures.

In view of the fact that the average pit-head price of coal has increased from 38s. 11d. to 60s. 6d. since nationalisation, can the Minister hold out any hope of getting the miners to see that if more wages are paid to them for the same work, whatever they produce will cost more and will cause the cost of living to rise still further?

The National Coal Board, in conjunction and co-operation with the National Union of Mineworkers, are now entering upon a campaign to get better productivity from the mines, which is what I think my hon. Friend has in mind.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that attempts are being made in certain quarters, political and otherwise, to create prejudice against the miners in order to create prejudice against nationalisation?

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will acquit me in my answer from taking any such course.

indicated assent.

Is not the real point what the figures which my right hon. and learned Friend has just given are worth? Is not the real trouble that the purchasing power of the £ sterling has nearly halved, because of six years of Socialist Government, which killed initiative and ruined our credit?

Could the Minister make arrangements for hon. Gentlemen on the Government side of the House to go down a coal mine and do a few shifts in order to make up their minds whether they think the miners earn their money?

On a point of order. Could I be allowed to say, in view of some of the remarks——

No.

asked the Minister of Labour how many vacancies there are for experienced coal miners in Scotland; and in which areas these vacancies occur.

One hundred and sixty-four additional experienced coal miners are required. The vacancies are in East and West Ayr.

In view of the fact that the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne) and other hon. Members opposite seem to think that the wages in the coalmining industry are so very attractive, how does the right hon. and learned Gentleman account for these vacancies?

I am glad to say, whatever the reason, that the number of wage-earners on the colliery books in Scotland remains steady at about 85,000.

asked the Minister of Labour the total number of unemployed at the latest convenient stated date; how this compares with October, 1951; what was the percentage of dock workers unemployed on both dates; and whether he will make a comprehensive statement on the Government's plan for bringing about full employment.

On 16th February, 1953, 428,820 persons were registered as unemployed compared with 263,756 at October, 1951. In the week ended 14th February, 1953, the average number of dock workers surplus to requirements each day amounted to 15.8 per cent. of the total of registered dock workers; the corresponding figure for the week ended 13th October, 1951, was 7.4 per cent.

On a point of order. As the information asked for in the two earlier parts of the Question is published in the Ministry of Labour Gazette, may I ask why this Question was admitted to the Order Paper?

If the hon. Member looks at the Question, he will see that it refers to "the latest convenient stated date." The latest convenient date for the Minister might have been yesterday or the day before, whereas the date given in the Ministry of Labour Gazette is a month ago.

I think that that is the answer to the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Labour the total number of workers engaged in the manufacture of sanitary ware in Stoke-on-Trent; and how many of these are no longer fully employed.

I regret that statistics giving the information desired are not available. The manufacture of sanitary ware is not separately distinguished in the statistics compiled in my Department.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that the number of unemployed workers on Merseyside is now over 30,000; and what exceptional measures he proposes to take to find employment for these workers.

On 16th February, 1953, the total number unemployed on Merseyside was 27,735. As I informed the hon. Member on 4th and 18th December, 1952, we are doing all we can to get more employment in this Development Area.

Is the Minister aware of the growing concern on Merseyside about this considerable increase in the volume of unemployment, and will he consider suggesting to his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister the setting up of a subcommittee of the Cabinet so that proper attention can be given to this matter, and some effort, at least, made to deal with the situation?

As lately as yesterday, accompanied by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, I had the advantage of receiving deputations from hon. Members opposite, who are concerned in constituencies on Merseyside, and from some hon. Friends of mine on this side of the House. They put before me a number of suggestions. These will be considered and I shall reply to them.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the representations made to his Department by local authorities, workpeople and employers, he will reverse his decision to close the Pencoed Hostel on 22nd March.

I have looked carefully into this case, but I am afraid I can hold out no expectation of the decision to close the hostel being reversed. I have, however, arranged with the Minister of Works to extend the date of closing for three months until 22nd June in order to give the remaining residents more time in which to seek alternative accommodation. My Department's local offices will give as much help as lies in their power to those who are in difficulty in this respect.

While thanking the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that reply and his interest in the matter, and recognising that he has been under strong pressure from the Ministry of Works, may I put two questions to him? First, whether in his capacity as the representative, or, at least, the custodian, of the interests of employers and workpeople in mid-Glamorgan, he will press his right hon. Friend the Minister of Works to call off the present policy of vandalism which is implied in the destruction of the living accommodation in this excellent hostel so that it may be used for storage purposes? Second, in the event of that approach failing, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman do everything possible to protect the interests of the severely disabled persons now resident in the Pencoed Hostel?

I will, of course, do what I can to help the disabled persons and the others to find other accommodation, but the number of people resident in this hostel has dropped to about one-third of what it was; and I have to take into account the expenses of running these hostels, some of which are criticised for being too extravagant.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will give figures to show the extent to which the average age of those employed in agriculture has risen since 1949; and whether he will give separate figures for Scotland.

Some information about the age-distribution of employed persons was obtained in 1950, 1951 and 1952, but as it was based on small samples it is not sufficiently precise to enable the average age of persons employed in a particular industry to be computed. It shows, however, that there was little change in the age-distribution of employed persons in agriculture during that period. Separate figures are not available for Scotland.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the Minister of Agriculture recently, in Newcastle, specified the particular age group which was leaving the land because of lack of amenities in the countryside? If that is so, where did the Minister get his information from?

As I said, the information was obtained from a very small sample analysis of insurance cards over the three years. They do not enable me to say more than that there has not been much change in the distribution of age groups in agriculture.

In view of the fact that the Minister has no figures for Scotland, will he conduct an inquiry into the position in Scotland, since all the responsible farmers' leaders in the West of Scotland are urging him to stop the call-up for agricultural workers to enable them to have a labour force with which they can carry out the plans which the Government have asked them undertake?

That is a rather different matter. I have looked with such sympathy as I can at claims for deferment, and I think that all who are interested will realise that the farmers have not been badly treated.

asked the Minister of Labour how many vehicle and motor body builders are now unemployed; how many are engaged in employment which does not require their specialised skill; and what steps he is taking to ensure that these highly qualified men use their labour and skill to the best advantage.

Analyses of the registers of unemployed persons by occupations are made quarterly, and on 8th December, 1952, there were 363 light vehicle and motor body builders registered as unemployed at the employment exchanges. The further information for which the hon. Member asks is not available, but employment exchanges, as part of their normal policy, endeavour to submit workers to employment where their skill and experience can be best used.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware of the increased tendency of motor manufacturers to export vehicles completely knocked down and to assemble them abroad? Is he further aware that new methods of body construction are causing unemployment among vehicle builders on the structural side, and will he receive a deputation from the National Union of Vehicle Builders in order to examine this question further?

If the union concerned wish to make representations to me, they will be carefully considered, as all trade union representations of any view are considered in my Ministry.

asked the Minister of Labour whether the expectation contained in the Economic Survey for 1952, that 50,000 additional workers would be wanted for the aircraft programme by March, has been fulfilled; and how far the demands of that programme for labour are being satisfied.

The changes made in the defence programme have reduced to some extent the number of additional workers required for the aircraft industry by March, 1953. Between the end of 1951 and the end of January, 1953 (the date to which the latest employment statistics relate), employment in the manufacture and repair of aircraft increased by 32,000 and unfilled vacancies decreased from 8,500 to 5,300. More workers will be required for super-priority aircraft as production expands. Apart from certain types of skilled worker, the labour demands of the programme are being satisfied.

In view of the projected expansion of the aircraft programme, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman consult the unions concerned to see whether men who are made redundant to the motor industry might have their skill adapted to the requirements of the aircraft programme?

If any skill is disclosed in the redundancies to which the hon. Member refers, I shall certainly take it into account and see what can be done to make use of it.

asked the Minister of Labour to make a statement on the terms of reference and membership of the proposed Committee on the Disabled.

My right bon. Friends the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland have, jointly with myself, decided to set up a Committee with the following terms of reference:

"To review in all its aspects the existing provision for the rehabilitation, training and re-settlement of disabled persons, full regard being had to the need for the utmost economy in the Government's financial contribution, and to make recommendations."

Whilst thanking my right hon. and learned Friend for the very sympathetic way in which he has met representations from all quarters of the House about the establishment of this Committee, would I be in order in assuming that all aspects of this very important matter are covered in the terms of reference, and that some medical representation other than the Government representation will be included on the Committee in the names subsequently to be published?

As to the first part of my hon. Friend's question, the words of the terms of reference include:

"To review in all its aspects the existing provision …"

Will this Committee cover industrial subjects and military subjects, since under the new arrangement the pensioners are to be transferred for this purpose to the Health Service? Will it cover all aspects of the population, or be limited to certain people?

It is not intended to limit it in any way except, as it says in the terms of reference, to disabled persons.

Of all kinds? Sir W. Monckton: Of all kinds.

Will this inquiry cover all those people whom the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act now covers?

Yes, Sir.

Does that answer mean that the vast body of disabled persons confined to their homes and unable to go out will be included?

Certainly.

Will the term "disabled" also include those congenitally disabled from birth injuries, such as spastics?

Yes.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend give consideration to using the services of the present pensioners' welfare service in order to visit those people who may be so disabled as not to be able to get about?

The suggestion of my hon. Friend will be one which will have to be considered by the Committee. I would not wish to give them a directive.

asked the Minister of Labour how many vacancies there are for agricultural workers in Scotland; and in which counties these vacancies occur.

The number of vacancies for agricultural workers registered with employment exchanges in Scotland is 306. I will send my hon. and gallant Friend details of the counties in which these vacancies occur.

asked the Minister of Labour to state, for the latest convenient date, the number of dockers unemployed; and how many of these have claimed their release from the dock labour scheme.

In the week ended 28th February, 1953, the average daily number of registered dock workers surplus to requirements was 12,371, or 16.4 per cent. of the totals on the register. Seven hundred and seventy-nine dock workers have been released under the release scheme.

Is the Minister aware that the dockers would far rather be employed than be claiming release under this scheme? Can he say when the Government intend to grant to the dockers full employment such as they experienced continuously under the Labour Government?

In reply to the first part of the supplementary question, the scheme—which is not my scheme but the scheme of the National Dock Labour Board—is voluntary in character; and, as the hon. Member will have observed, 779 men have availed themselves of it. The others prefer to take the chances which come in what is necessarily a fluctuating employment.

Can my right hon. and learned Friend say how many of those who are surplus to requirements are over the age of 65?

I could not give that figure without notice, but I will certainly give it if I am asked for it.

In view of the obviously disappointing failure of the voluntary retirement scheme, may I ask the Minister whether the National Dock Labour Board are reviewing the matter; and when we might expect the 22½ per cent. levy to be reduced?

I know that the matter is under consideration by the National Dock Labour Board. More than that I could not say without notice.

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider employing some people specially to bring to the attention and notice of the dockers the knowledge that opportunities do arise of alternative employment for periods of three months, rather than leaving it to the individual to decide?

I will certainly consider that.

asked the Minister of Labour the loss or profit per resident per week for National Service hostels for the financial year 1951-52.

In the financial year 1951-52 there was a deficit of 19s. 3d. per resident per week in industrial hostels run by the National Service Hostels Corporation for my Ministry.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the loss of production and economic dislocation as a result of the strike of vehicle builders at the Austin motor works; of the economic distress caused to workers not involved in the strike; and what action he intends to take in order to help effect a settlement in this trade dispute.

Yes, Sir. There has been a partial stoppage of work at the Austin Motor Company, Longbridge, since 17th February as a result of the strike of about 2,300 vehicle builders. According to my latest information the number of other workers laid off at Austin's is slightly less than 6,000, which is some hundreds fewer than it was a week ago, as the company have been able to re-engage a number of workers who had previously been stood off. The partial stoppage has also led to some suspensions of labour and short-time working in some of the firms supplying components. My Department will continue to keep itself closely informed of the position.

Has it not been traditional for the Minister of Labour to offer his good offices when both sides need to be got together in order to find a solution to a strike? Is he aware that in this case it is rather urgent that he should do so because there are many thousands of families now affected by this strike, and yet the men laid off are not actually taking part in it? Why does he not offer his good offices to try to get the two sides round the table?

I agree warmly that it is very desirable that a stoppage of this sort should cease because it brings hardship to a number of people. I would also point out that I have not had a request for assistance from either side in the stoppage; and, while the services of the conciliation officers of the Ministry are always available should the parties think they would be helpful, I must take care to avoid any step which might prolong difficulties rather than shorten them.

Does the Minister's reply mean that as soon as a request is received from either of the parties in this dispute, his conciliation machinery will be put into operation? Is he aware that a considerable proportion of the many thousands of workers normally employed at Austin's reside outside Birmingham throughout the Black Country and, consequently, the economic distress resulting will cover a very wide area of the Midlands?

I hope I made it clear that I realise the economic distress that follows from this dispute, and that I am as anxious as anyone to see this stoppage cease. What I ventured to doubt was whether my intervention would necessarily shorten the period of the stoppage. I merely said to the House that it is known that I have conciliation officers, that I have not had a request from either side to use those conciliation officers, that as soon as I get that request I will consider it, but I cannot say in advance what I shall do.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman recall that when a comparable stoppage took place in Coventry some years ago, his predecessor took the initiative in himself offering his services and of using his chief conciliation officer in order to bring together the two parties who then were in a state of deadlock; and in order to break through the paralysis that exists at present in the relationship of the two parties, will the Minister himself take the initiative and try to bring the parties together?

I think it is very dangerous—and I believe that some right hon. Gentlemen opposite would agree with me—to draw a parallel between the circumstances of one stoppage and another. I would only say in regard to this one that if at any time I thought I could usefully intervene, I should not hesitate to do so. I do not think so at the moment.

asked the Minister of Labour how many merchant seamen are registered with his Department for seagoing employment; what steps he takes to overcome difficulties in recruitment; and, in this connection, what have been the results of the inquiries made into the case of Mr. J. Wesley, details of which have been sent to him.

On 8th December, 1952, the latest date for which figures are available, there were 4,724 persons registered at Employment Exchanges for seagoing employment and I am not aware of any special recruiting difficulties. With regard to Mr. Wesley, I am informed that his application to enter one of the Shipping Federation's Training Schools for Firemen was rejected by the Federation because, owing to a long waiting list, recruitment of firemen in the Yorkshire Area had been temporarily suspended.

In regard to the case of Mr. Wesley, has the right hon. and learned Gentleman any comment to make in regard to the form which was sent to him turning down his application? Since the filling in of part of that form has now been found to be a forgery—from the point of view of the Shipping Federation and my constituent it must have occurred between their two geographical situations—will the right hon. and learned Gentleman make a statement accordingly, in order that the Press can give the same amount of publicity to his reply as they gave when this subject was first raised?

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for giving me an opportunity of saying that I am quite satisfied, from the inquiries I have made, that this man was not rejected for the training school because of his colour, I know that various documents have been shown and doubted, but I am happy to say that, as Minister of Labour, I have not got to consider whether forgery has been committed.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman have a further conference with the Ministry of Transport in view of the developments which have taken place outside this Chamber, and does he not agree that people who commit dastardly actions of this kind. exploiting the colour bar and race hatred in this country for pseudo-political purposes, ought to be brought to justice?

I am afraid that is not a matter for me.

asked the Minister of Health if he can yet make a statement about the progress made in the experiment with an influenza vaccine.

The experiment is still in progress and results will not be known for two or three months.

asked the Minister of Health how many deaths have occurred during the past 12 months from coal-gas poisoning.

The latest available figures are for the 12 months ended 30th September, 1952, when there were 2,356 deaths registered.

Does not the Minister consider these figures rather alarming?

It is quite true that the trend in post-war years has been upwards; but an enormous proportion of the figures I have given, namely, 1,900, are suicide deaths.

asked the Minister of Health what information he has of the ill-effect on health from the inhalation of fluorine gas as a by-product of industrial processes.

I have no evidence that such ill-effects are occurring.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in my constituency, in the neighbourhood of at least two factories, the glass of the factories is etched and rendered opaque, as is also the glass of many of the houses round about, as a result of fluorides which come from the industrial processes? Would he consider going further into this matter and seeing that some research work is done so that we know what is happening to human beings as well as to cattle?

I am aware of the recent incident in which four or five cattle were poisoned in the constituency of the hon. Gentleman, but that seemed to me to confirm the investigation in 1949 by the Medical Research Council into an incident in Inverness, which showed that though there may be, and indeed is, danger to animals, there is no danger, so the M.R.C. advised the Minister then, to human life.

But may I ask the Minister to go further into the matter because there is a good deal of circumstantial evidence, which we cannot term strictly scientific, that harm comes to human beings? The right hon. Gentleman has a council; will he ask them to look at it again?

As I have said, the M.R.C. have looked at it, but I will draw their attention to what the hon. Gentleman has said.

asked the Minister of Health when he proposes to reintroduce the Dentists Bill.

As soon as Parliamentary time permits, but I am afraid that will certainly not be this Session.

Would the hon. Lady not agree that it is quite absurd to proceed with this Bill, and particularly with proposals to introduce dental nurses, so long as we are artificially restricting the work of fully-qualified dentists?

asked the Minister of Health how long his Standing Tuberculosis Advisory Committee has been considering the problem of tuberculosis among persons taking up residence here from abroad; and what recommendations the Committee has made on the subject.

The actual reference to the Tuberculosis Advisory Committee was made in December. I understand that it is to be discussed in a few days.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are at least indications that we are importing tuberculosis into this country to a disturbing extent? Is he further aware that this problem is not confined to aliens, as was recently suggested by one of his hon. Friends, but extends also to British subjects from parts of the Commonwealth and from Ireland? Will he introduce some measure of urgency into this matter?

I do not quarrel with what the hon. Member has said. The wider questions he raised are under discussion also with the Ministry of Labour and the Aliens Department of the Home Office.

asked the Minister of Health if he is satisfied that there is adequate accommodation for the treatment of patients suffering from tuberculosis in the area of West Cumberland.

No, Sir. The Newcastle Regional Hospital Board is looking into proposals for increasing it.

But is the Minister aware that all the local evidence is contrary to that view; and is he further aware that the recent decision to postpone the conversion of the sanatorium at Camerton Hospital has caused concern in West Cumberland as it would have provided a further 80 beds? If information is given to him, will the Minister look again at the matter and reconsider the case?

I think the hon. Gentleman has misunderstood my answer. I said, "No, Sir." I was agreeing with the hon. Gentleman that the accommodation is not adequate. The Camerton situation to which he referred was an appalling muddle for which my Ministry, the regional board and, I think, the county council are partly responsible. It took place a year or two ago. We are looking as urgently as we can into the question of making good the deficiency it will cause.

asked the Minister of Health how many applications by general practitioners for the use of aureomycin in specified cases have been refused since 1st October. 1952; and how many have been granted.

Eight hundred and ninety-six applications have been granted. It is estimated that about 5 per cent. are refused.

asked the Minister of Health whether, now that aureomycin is manufactured in this country and the limitations on its efficacy are so well known among general practitioners, he will make it more freely available to doctors so that delay is avoided when its use is indicated.

The manufacture of aureomycin in this country still involves bulk importation of the crude drug at considerable dollar cost, and my right hon. Friend thinks that its issue ought still to be subject to the present safeguards.

asked the Minister of Health how many estimates per week are received on the average from dentists by the Dental Estimates Board; and what is the number of staff employed by the Board to deal with these estimates.

On the average 160,000 new estimates are received each week together with 40,000 estimates submitted for a second time. The staff numbers 926, some of whom are employed part-time.

Would my hon. Friend agree that these figures indicate an excessive degree of centralisation? Would she ask her right hon. Friend to apply his mind to what is in essence a problem in mathematics?

There is a large sum of public money involved, and my right hon. Friend feels that the service is better centred under one organisation.

asked the Minister of Health why no ambulance or other care was provided for Mr. Maw on his discharge on 22nd September, 1952, from Lambeth Hospital to face a journey to Carlisle, though he was suffering from partial paralysis, incontinence and bedsores; and if he will call for a full inquiry, in view of the death of Mr. Maw one week later.

Full inquiries have already been made into this case. I am advised that there is no medical evidence to suggest that Mr. Maw's death was in any way connected with his journey from London to Carlisle, and it does not appear to me that a further inquiry would serve any useful purpose.

Is the Minister aware that after six months' correspondence I have failed to receive replies to the following questions? Can he say why the man was discharged; why no nursing care was available to him for a 300-mile journey; why no transport nor ambulance was made available for him to convey him from Lambeth Hospital to Euston and from Euston to Carlisle? Can the Minister answer those questions; and will he please indicate if he is making a further inquiry into this obviously distressing and unsatisfactory case?

I quite agree with the comments of the hon. Member. I think this a most distressing and unsatisfactory case. But I have taken medical evidence both from Lambeth and Carlisle, and I am advised this is the medical opinion—that the journey had nothing to do with Mr. Maw's death. I fully agree with the hon. Member that there were serious errors of judgment by the hospital, for example, in reserving only seats and not a whole compartment for the journey. I have made my views about this matter known to the hospital, and I think a formal inquiry, in addition to what I have already done, would serve no useful purpose.

In view of the nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise the matter as early as possible on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Health if, after a full year's working of the dental charges scheme under the National Health Service, he will review, in consultation with the dental profession, the effect of the scheme on the inclination of the public to visit the dentist as often as they should.

The effects of the charges will be reviewed in due course and my right hon. Friend will welcome the views of the dental profession.

While welcoming that assurance, may I ask if we may take it that "due course" will not be too long a delay?

asked the Minister of Education whether she is aware of the antiquated restrictions imposed on students in teachers' training colleges; and whether she will set up a committee to advise her on possible reforms in the conduct of these colleges.

No, Sir, I am satisfied that in most colleges there are no unreasonable restrictions on students' freedom, and I see no need to set up a committee to advise me on this matter.

Is the Minister aware that if she is satisfied on this question she is about the only one in the country who is? Can she further explain why antiquated restrictions are so often maintained at teachers' training colleges but not at university colleges? If she is not aware of this, perhaps she would set up a committee to advise her.

The hon. Gentleman will have noticed that in my answer I used the phrase, "in most colleges." I did not say, "in all colleges." I am not satisfied that at all colleges the position is satisfactory, but I am satisfied that in most colleges there are no unreasonable restrictions. I have had discussions with those who are resident in these colleges, and I think that the statement that in most colleges affairs are satisfactory is correct.

Does the right hon. Lady agree that it is most important that students should be encouraged to enter teachers' training colleges? Is she satisfied that she is fully informed as to the restrictions imposed at some of these training colleges?

I think that I am fully informed. Most of the colleges are satisfactory. I would not say that all are satisfactory.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I shall raise the matter at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Minister of Education whether she will review the system under which awards are made to training college students.

The system of grants to recognised training college students has been examined from to time, and I do not consider that a further review could usefully be undertaken at the present time.

While appreciating that this is a difficult matter to dispose of by question and answer, will the right hon. Lady try to overcome her natural obstinacy and look at this matter with a fresh mind?

I have looked at it again during the last few months, and I think that, from the latest statements, the hon. Gentleman will find that we get good results from the system; at least, I hope so.

asked the Minister of Education how many new teachers qualified during 1952; and by how many the number is still below requirements.

About 15,600, which was sufficient to increase the number of teachers in maintained primary and secondary schools by about 5,000. In spite of the very big increase in the number of children in the schools during the year, this produced a staffing standard somewhat better than in 1950.

Is it not lack of school buildings and not lack of teachers which is preventing us reducing the size of classes at the moment?

Both factors are involved. I know that the hon. Gentleman will be very glad that we have had this record increase this year of an extra 5,000 teachers.

asked the Minister of Education the total expenditure on teachers' salaries in State schools in 1952; and how much of this was borne by the local authorities.

On the basis of the revised estimates of local education authorities for the financial year 1952–53 the total estimated cost of teachers' salaries in schools and other institutions maintained by those authorities is about £148 million, of which 40 per cent. falls as a net charge on the rates.

asked the Minister of Education what steps she has taken during 1952, and what steps she will be taking in 1953, in order to reduce substantially the administrative costs of her Department.

During 1952, the non-industrial staff of my Department was reduced by 125, or just over 4 per cent. I shall continue to keep a careful watch on the administrative costs of my Department.

Does not the right hon. Lady consider that cheeseparing in education has gone just about far enough?

I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman will agree that we should watch how we spend our money and ensure that we get full value for it.

Is the Minister aware that if she continues to make administrative economies that will help her to continue to maintain the essential fabric of education?

Is the right hon. Lady aware that already she has not maintained the full fabric of education, and that there is evidence to prove it?

All I can say is that I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. He has his opinion and I have mine.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the "cheeseparing" includes the extra £12 million provided for education in this year's Estimates?

asked the Minister of Education the total cost of new school building since the war to the latest convenient year; and how much of this is borne by local authorities.

The total value of new primary and secondary schools approved since the war up to the 31st December, 1952, is £167,700,000. Of this about £147,600,000 is financed by local education authorities, almost wholly from loan. The expenditure of authorities in meeting annual loan charges ranks for 60 per cent. grant from my Department.

In view of the heavy burden of rate-borne expenditure which these two items of teachers' salaries and new school building impose on the local education authorities, and as that education expenditure must continue to increase if we are to provide the services required, does not the Minister think that it is about time we reviewed the whole incidence of State and local government expenditure?

The two important factors are the number of teachers required and the number of school places required at this period because of the increased number of children. Those constitute the two big expenses. The country must face the fact and realise that these children must have teachers and schools, and that this is an expanding expense.

Can my right hon. Friend say what proportion of that total expenditure was on grammar schools?

Not without notice.

asked the Minister of Education if she will state the number of known spastic children in Carlisle and in the county of Cumberland, respectively; and what provision is available for their education.

I do not collect separate figures for spastic, as distinct from other physically handicapped, children and I would advise the hon. Member to ask the authorities concerned for this information. Less severely physically handicapped children may be educated in ordinary schools or in day special schools catering mainly for delicate children, one of which is maintained by the local education authority for Carlisle. More severely handicapped children should attend boarding special schools.