asked the Minister of Health the estimated average amount of expenditure in the running of a day nursery accounted for by overhead charges, staff wages and food, respectively.

For an average-sized nursery of 48 places the provisionally estimated amounts in 1951–52 were £1,908, £3,421 and £781.

Does not the Parliamentary Secretary think that these figures are really quite excessive in a country in which family allowances are at the rate of 5s. a week, and in which women at home have to bring up large families on figures infinitely smaller than those given?

The hon. Member will be aware that family allowances are no concern of my Department. It is true that in day nurseries, with so many children drawn from different homes, and with the variations in age, the charges are necessarily high.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in the Gillingham day nursery before May last year the staff consisted of 14 people to look after 26 children, and does not this bear out the fact that there is certainly some case for reviewing the whole situation?

asked the Minister of Health the regulations and rulings of his Department with regard to the number of personnel required in a local government-administered day nursery.

The decision is left to the local health authorities, who have been advised that, excluding domestic staff, a ratio of one staff to five children is generally considered desirable.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary not aware that this number is often greatly exceeded? In some of the day nurseries in Kent the charge for maintaining these children is 35s. a week and in others is about £4 a week. Will she look into this very useful service, which ought not to be curtailed, to see if these nurseries can be maintained on a basis of the more economical use of public funds?

I will bear in mind the points made by the hon. Gentleman. I would, however, point out that every effort has been made in Kent during the past two years to run these nurseries as economically as possible, but they are a service in which staffing charges are high.

Will the hon. Lady bear in mind that these lush and extravagant establishments are producing a situation in which either the very people for the benefit of whom the nurseries are intended cannot afford to use them, owing to the heavy charges, or the nurseries are becoming an intolerable burden on the rates, and will she look further into this one to five ratio and see if it cannot be amended?

That is a matter for the local health authorities. I cannot accept the hon. Member's suggestion that the people who really need these nurseries are being denied them because of the charges, my reason for saying that being that the local health authorities relate their charges to means.

How can the Parliamentary Secretary say that, when she knows that in a few weeks' time there will not be one single day nursery left in Kent, and that mothers themselves complain about the top-heavy administration in which economies could be made?

Does the hon. Lady not realise that half these institutions are being closed down? The women in Lancashire who were appealed to a couple of years ago to go into industry are now being forced out of industry by the policy of closing the day nurseries, and what is the hon. Lady going to do about it?

The matter is wholly one for the local authority. On the basis of investigations which have been made, representations have been made to my right hon. Friend, and where closure has been advocated, some alternative provision is being suggested.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will cause an inquiry to be made into the cost of administering and maintaining day nurseries, with a view to such economies being made as will make it possible to continue this service at prices which will enable parents to continue using it.

asked the Minister of Health if he will inquire as to the effect of the closing of day nurseries on the employment of women and on the care of young children.

asked the Minister of Health what steps he proposes to enable greater use to be made of day nurseries; and if he will undertake a review to enable prices to be fixed within the range of those in the lower income groups.

My right hon. Friend has no reason to think that local health authorities are failing in their statutory responsibilities for the care of young children or in general to run day nurseries as economically as practicable. Charges for using the nurseries are based on ability to pay. No useful purpose would, therefore, be served by an inquiry on these points, but any question as to the availabilty of women for employment would be for my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Labour.

But surely the hon. Lady is aware, and if she is aware will she please admit it, that the variation in the cost of day nurseries is as much as 100 per cent. between one institution and another; that perfectly good day nurseries are being maintained at much lower costs than those now charged by some corporations; that women are being placed in real difficulty; that employment is being affected and that people in many parts of the country are most indignant about this?

Will the hon. Lady ensure that in reviewing the staffing of day nurseries she maintains a decent standard, so that the children will be well looked after?

Will my hon. Friend consider whether it might not be advisable for these day nurseries to be run and paid for by district and borough councils and not by county councils as they are now?

That is another question.

Will the hon. Lady look into the matter again? Is she aware that in Slough one day nursery has been completely closed and at the other the charge has been increased to £2 3s. a week? Does she know that I have had a wad of letters from mothers complaining either that they cannot afford the increase, or that they can no longer go on working, or, if they do, they must look after the children under impossible conditions?

It is not wholly fair to say that the charge at Slough has been increased. Almost all the mothers using the day nurseries there come under the scheme of reduced rates because of need. They do not pay the full rate. Usually where the full rate is paid both parents are in employment. On the question of the use of the Slough nursery, I understand that even the remaining day nursery is not fully occupied.

asked the Minister of Health what action was taken to reduce the cost of running the five remaining day nurseries in Kent before the decision was taken to close them.

Reductions in staff and in the hours during which the nurseries were open, the replacement of deputy matrons by staff nurses, and general economy in management.

Is the hon. Lady aware that I wrote to the Minister several months ago showing that it was so difficult to get children into the day nurseries, that most of them were only about half full and, therefore, the cost was greater? Is not this a deliberate policy to close them? The hon. Lady said last week that baby minders were successful in the L.C.C. area. That area also has day nurseries. Can she explain why Kent cannot have the same facilities?

I cannot accept the suggestion that to put more children in the nurseries would lessen the cost.

Of course it would.

The cost per child for children attending the existing nurseries is £3 1s. 3d. and the total cost is £23,000. If the present nurseries were fully occupied, the cost would be £33,000.

With the same administration.

On the contrary. The hon. Gentleman must be aware that if the numbers were greater there would be more staff and more food needed.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the hardship which is caused by the closing of all the day nurseries in Kent; and if he will reconsider his decision.

No, Sir. The county council's proposals to introduce a scheme of daily minders should, in my right hon. Friend's view, obviate any material degree of hardship.

Does the hon. Lady appreciate that there are some cases of great hardship, such as those of widowed mothers who have to look after their children and must necessarily go out to work? Will she not reconsider her decision? It is wrong to say that this is not a matter for the Government. The last Government decided the question and gave some guidance to local authorities.

I do not deny that there are cases where it is necessary for the children to be looked after. It was for that very purpose that my right hon. Friend insisted that there should be an alternative scheme which would make the necessary provision.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this question of day nurseries seems to have many of the characteristics of a national muddle, and that by the most uneconomical way in which they are being run they look like committing suicide?

Will the hon. Lady take note of the evident anxiety on both sides of the House about this matter? Will she remind her right hon. Friend that when he asked, in the last piece of legislation he introduced, for powers to make higher charges for these nurseries, they were given without any difficulty, to help him to keep the nurseries going? Will she ask him to reconsider the whole matter?

Has the hon. Lady's attention been drawn to a recent Report of the Select Committee on Estimates which dealt fully with this matter and made certain recommendations?

In reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand) I would say that it was because my right hon. Friend wished to be satisfied that alternative provision would be made for those who really needed the services of the day nurseries that last year he refused to allow Kent to close all 10.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the hon. Lady's answers, I give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Health how many local authorities have now submitted schemes for promoting the welfare of physically handicapped persons; and how many of these schemes include provisions for handicraft training.

Sixty-five local authorities in England and Wales have submitted schemes for promoting the welfare of physically handicapped persons. All these schemes include provision enabling the authorities to train handicapped persons in handicrafts.

Can my hon. Friend say whether Surrey County Council is one of the authorities which has submitted a scheme? On a more general point, is there any indication whether the remaining authorities are preparing schemes? If not, can my hon. Friend do anything to encourage them?

We have not yet had a scheme submitted by the Surrey County Council. Although my right hon. Friend has power to issue directions, he does not feel that it is opportune to do so when other schemes are still coming in.

Can the hon. Lady say whether her right hon. Friend feels satisfied that the response is generally satisfactory, and also whether his mind is moving a little towards making Circular 33 of 1951 mandatory?

The response has been reasonably good, and other schemes are still coming in. My right hon. Friend does not feel that it is opportune to issue any directions now.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will make a further statement about his Department's investigation into the number of deaths in Greater London attributable to the fog last December.

A detailed study of the evidence obtainable from hospitals, vital statistics and other sources is now in progress, and I am not yet in a position to make any statement.

Does the Minister realise that the matter is one of considerable urgency, and that since I raised it in the House two months ago I have received notable reinforcement from the London County Council, which is also pressing the Minister to institute a full-scale inquiry into what is a serious menace in London?

I quite agree that it is a most important matter, but it is precisely for that reason that, in my view, this sort of scientific investigation— because that is what it is—ought not to be hurried.

Could the Minister tell us whether there are included in this investigation special investigations about the very large number of people suffering from tuberculosis who died during the period of this fog?

All matters that can reasonably be attributed to the effect of the severe fog will come within the purview of this committee.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will appoint a committee of medical and other experts to investigate the high number of suicides in recent years among schoolboys and undergraduates.

The figures for suicides among boys between 10 and 14 are too small to be statistically significant. Separate figures for older students are not available. I am, however, aware of the concern about this problem, and while I do not think it would be appropriate for me to set up a special committee, I am sure that the problem will be carefully watched by all concerned.

Is not that a somewhat vague and evasive reply? Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the considerable concern and disquiet felt by parents and teachers, and will he not, in association, perhaps, with the Minister of Education, see to what extent the strain of examinations is responsible for this deplorable series of suicides?

As far as trends are concerned, the general suicide rate for boys and men between 15 and 24 years of age is lower than the general rate and has been falling in recent years. The fullest facilities are available to universities for dealing with the general problem and I think it is a matter which is best left to them. If they ask for my help in any way, I shall be delighted to assist, but I believe that they have the fullest facilities available already.

asked the Minister of Health when the Standing Advisory Committee on Tuberculosis met last; how often it has met in the last 12 months; when it is intended that it shall meet again; if he will ensure that in future regular meetings of the committee shall be held; and if he will strengthen its membership by the appointment of a tuberculosis physician in clinical practice.

The committee has met once during the last 12 months— on 5th May, 1952—and its next meeting is on 1st April. The frequency of meetings is a matter for the committee itself. Its membership already includes three tuberculosis physicians with clinical charge of beds, and I do not consider it necessary to add to that number.

Can my right hon. Friend tell us how far he is guided by this important body when it does meet and makes recommendations?

It meets when there is sufficient business to discuss. One of the important matters that it is to consider is the question raised in the House of Commons about tuberculosis brought in by emigrants to this country. I have the fullest confidence in this body and pay particular attention to its conclusions.

asked the Minister of Health what action he is taking to secure an improvement in the condition and equipment of general practitioners' surgeries.

asked the Minister of Health what Regulations he has made on the standard of surgery and waiting room accommodation in doctors' premises under the National Health Service; how many have been inspected by executive councils; and how many have been declared unsuitable.

The relevant Regulation is paragraph 7 (4) and (5) of Part I of the First Schedule to Statutory Instruments, 1948, No. 506. My right hon. Friend has no details of inspections by executive councils. He is, however, hoping shortly to discuss the best way of securing an improvement, where necessary, in the condition and equipment of general practitioners' surgeries and waiting rooms with representatives of the medical profession.

Will the Minister agree that the attention of the executive councils might well be drawn to this matter, especially in view of the considerable sums of back pay recently awarded to the medical profession, and that this may be one of the most desirable ways of utilising at least some of that money?

I think that we should await the outcome of the discussions which are pending.

asked the Minister of Health to make a statement at an early date on the implementation or otherwise of the Cope Report.

Yes, Sir. As the result of discussions with the professional bodies of medical auxiliaries, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I are satisfied that there is insufficient agreement on fundamental matters to proceed with statutory registration on the lines proposed by the Cope Committees. We intend, therefore, as soon as possible to make regulations, using the power of Section 66 of the National Health Service Act, 1946. and Section 65 of the National Health Service (Scotland) Act, 1947, to prescribe qualifications for medical auxiliaries for the purpose of employment in the National Health Service. We shall shortly give the professional and other bodies concerned an opportunity to comment on an outline of the regulations proposed.

I want to thank the Minister for his statement and ask him whether, now that this Report is not to be implemented, he will consider the question of physiotherapists and other medical auxiliary service practitioners who have been previously affected as a result of the Report? For instance, a number of experienced physiotherapists have been unjustly refused employment under the National Health Service administration in hospitals because they were not members of a particular organisation. Will the Minister consider that matter, and have it examined and corrected?

I am aware of the difficulties of medical auxiliaries and particularly of the physiotherapists to whom the hon. and learned Gentleman refers. I intend, when making the regulations, to withdraw the temporary instructions given in August, 1951, and I will do everything I can to see that the regulations which I propose are fair to all the associations concerned.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will allow private patients to obtain drugs prescribed by their doctor on a parity with people in the State scheme.

This is not possible under the provisions of the National Health Service Act, 1946.

Does the hon. Lady not recognise the wording of the Question, which was taken directly from one of the pledges made by the Conservative Party in the days of their more carefree irresponsibility, and will she take note of how glad we are to add this to the long list of broken pledges?

Can my hon. Friend state what the net cost of this would be after allowing for the shilling prescription charge? Has she worked it out?

My hon. Friend will not expect me to answer that question without notice.

asked the Minister of Health the estimated average number of prescriptions on each form and the average cost of each prescription at the latest available date; and how these figures compare with those before the introduction of the prescription charge.

In England and Wales the estimated average number per form was 1.71 in February, 1953, 1.57 in May, 1952, and 1.59 in February, 1952. The estimated average cost was about 4s. 2½d. in December, 1952, compared with an average cost of 4s. 1¼d. in May, 1952, and 3s. 10½d. in December, 1951.

Will the hon. Lady agree that this figure suggests that the prescription charge has added to the cost per prescription in many cases, and has encouraged doctors, for understandable reasons, to add to the amount of drugs prescribed, and thereby increased considerably the amount of wastage?

My right hon. Friend cannot accept that as the sole explanation. The main cause is increasing prescribing of expensive new drugs.

Is the hon. Lady not aware that more items are being put on the prescriptions and that the quantities are also increasing? Is she aware that this is a matter of some concern if we are concerned at all about the question of wastage? Large bottles of medicine and large tins of pills are apt to go down the drain even faster.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has now drawn the attention of executive councils and their medical committees to the fact that both he and the General Medical Services Committee have accepted the encouragement of group practice as a desirable objective.

I have now received advice from the Central Health Services Council on the definition of group practice, and I propose shortly to discuss with representatives of the medical profession how best to implement the recommendation on group practice of the working party on the Distribution of Remuneration of General Practitioners.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask him to bear in mind the desirability of finding, at the proper time, some way of allowing this information to get down into the regions and the localities? Very often these things are talked of centrally and are not really known about locally.

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. As a matter of fact, I only received this report last night. I will consider it, and also whether it will be possible to place the report in the Library of the House and make it available to Members; and what publicity should be given to the conclusions which Sir Henry Cohen's Committee have reached.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has received and considered the resolution passed by the Blackburn Executive Council, expressing concern at the reduction in demand for dental and ophthalmic treatment and calling for this treatment to be made free of charge again; and what action he proposes to take.

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend is collecting full information on the demand, so that the effect of the charges can be properly assessed.

Is the hon. Lady not aware that the executive council in Blackburn have expressed the view that the great reduction in demand is due to the part-payment charges, while the need is as great as ever, and that there cannot be an effective Health Service so long as this part-payment remains in operation? Could the hon. Lady's answer mean that her right hon. Friend now realises the profound mistake made by the Government in instituting these charges, and that he intends to remove them?

I cannot accept the hon. Lady's supplementary question on two points. The first is that the charges for spectacles and dentures were introduced by her right hon. Friend and not by us. Second, the demand for spectacles slightly increased in 1952. In the demand for normal conservative treatment, excluding dentures, there has been very little change.

Is the hon. Lady aware that the first part of her answer was not borne out by the facts, and that the Blackburn Executive Council's resolution was in reference to treatment and not to dentures at all? It is the preventive side of the service that should be improved.

In regard to ophthalmic treatment, about which the hon. Lady complained, the charges did indeed come under the previous Government's policies.

In view of the demand for dental treatment, will the Minister keep this matter carefully under review?

The figures for last year in the possession of my right hon. Friend do not bear out the contention made. The demand has not substantially fallen from the figures and estimates previously available.

asked the Minister of Health how many mass radiography units are in use in the West Riding of Yorkshire, with particular reference to Bradford and district.

Four, one of which is based on Bradford.

May I ask the Minister if he considers that the equipment he has mentioned is adequate for the needs of the locality?

I have no reason to suppose that it is inadequate in any way. If the hon. Member believes it is, perhaps he will put a case to me, and I shall be glad to look into it.

asked the Minister of Health how many visits were made by district nurses in Birmingham to the homes of patients during December, January and February last.

Forty-two thousand eight hundred and ninety-nine, 46,319 and 43,828 respectively.

Does the Minister realise that even before the figures were as high as that, some of the district nurses were having to make 16 visits in the morning alone, whereas the ideal is 12 a day? Does she not think that most unsatisfactory?

To a great extent the increase in the number of visits is due to district nurses giving far more penicillin and streptomycin injections at patients' homes, which has enabled us to free hospital beds, and that process is wholly desirable.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the hardship and inconvenience caused to district nurses in Birmingham, especially during the winter months, many of whom have to travel by bicycle; and if he will make more satisfactory arrangements to enable such nurses to obtain priority in purchasing small motor-cars by easier hire purchase facilities.

No complaints on this score have been brought to my right hon. Friend's notice; arrangements to enable district nurses to purchase motor-cars are a matter for the local health authority.

Does the Minister not realise that deputations have waited upon the local authority from doctors and also from the trades council, and in view of the fact that these nurses are being overworked in such terrible weather, cannot something be done to assist them to obtain cars, as the midwives are able to obtain them, so that the position can be relieved to some extent?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that of 148 nurses 50 own cars. But it must be for the local authorities, with full knowledge of their areas, and the duties which have to be covered by their district nurses, to make decisions in this matter.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the danger and nuisance to residents through the emission of dense clouds of smoke from the chimney of the City General Hospital, Carlisle; and if he will expedite the installation of new boiler plant to abate the nuisance and reduce the cause for complaint.

The regional hospital board regard this as an urgent matter, and are doing everything possible to expedite the provision of new plant. Meanwhile, the hospital is taking such steps as it can to reduce the trouble.

May I thank the Minister for his helpful reply, and ask him if he is aware that I have a petition from 600 local residents in the vicinity of the hospital protesting against the pollution of the atmosphere? Would he, as Minister, set an example to commercial undertakings in the area in the matter of pollution?

I am doing what I can, but the difficulty here is that new boilers are required, and until they are installed the position will not be entirely satisfactory. They are on order and I hope we can get their delivery hurried up.

asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that the teaching hospitals in London receive revenue grants per bed at a rate approximately 40 per cent. greater than the similar grants for the Sheffield teaching hospitals, he will re-allocate the money available in order that the Sheffield teaching hospitals shall receive a more equitable proportion of the money available for teaching hospitals.

I do not accept the assumption underlying this Question. The grants made to teaching hospitals must have regard to the current cost of maintaining beds, which is substantially higher in London than in Sheffield.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is a national service, and that although Sheffield has done extremely well, it is disproportionately handicapped by lack of funds? Will he be prepared to receive a deputation in order to consider the question of allocations for these teaching hospitals?

The real reason for the disparity is that traditionally the London teaching hospitals have many specialised departments and have special staff ratios. I have not the slightest intention of interfering with that position. I shall be very glad to consider the question of receiving a deputation, and perhaps my hon. Friend will speak to me about it.

asked the Minister of Health if he will hold a special inquiry as to the future of Camerton Hospital, West Cumberland.

No, Sir.

Will the Minister reconsider the position, in view of the fact that another £10,000 has already been spent in the reconversion of this hospital into a sanatorium? Although there has been an argument about defence, this hospital would make a very suitable place for urgently needed accommodation for patients suffering from tuberculosis. Would the Minister reconsider the matter?

I do not think that an inquiry would help, because all the facts are known. This is a disused smallpox hospital. Authority was given in the time of the last Government to inaugurate a scheme for a sanatorium there. It was subsequently discovered, a long time afterwards, that there was an enormous ammunition dump within a few yards. As soon as I heard that, I stopped the scheme the same day. An inquiry could not reveal new facts because they are fully known. I am aware of the position in that region and in the Newcastle region.

Would it not be possible to get rid of the ammunition, in view of the fact that there is also a village near it? Will not the Minister reconsider the whole local position.

Of course, I am glad to look at anything which the hon. Member or anyone else likes to bring to my notice. I have a memorandum from the hospital management committee on this matter which I am carefully studying. The Question I was asked was about an inquiry, and I am satisfied that no useful purpose would be served by one.

Could not the right hon. Gentleman make contact with his colleagues with a view to removing this ammunition dump and allowing this hospital to be used as a sanatorium? The North-East is one of the worst parts of the country for tuberculosis treatment, and sanatorium accommodation is urgently required. Will not the Minister again look at the matter, and see whether any use can be made of the hospital for that purpose?

I am prepared to look at the local case which has been put to me, but I do not want to hold out any hope, because my present view is that no useful purpose would be served by an inquiry.

asked the Minister of Health if, in view of the curtailment and postponement of the capital expenditure programmes of the national hospital service, owing to the need for national economy, he will sanction the realisation of certain of the investments of the Hospital Endowments Fund and allow the proceeds to be used for capital projects of an urgent nature.

I regret that the hon. Member's interesting suggestion is not practicable at present.

Is the Minister aware of the very widespread feeling of frustration among members of these committees, and the deep anxiety about the inevitable stoppage of hospital development? Cannot he offer them something?

It is quite untrue that there is a stoppage in hospital development. The money allocated for capital resources is more or less the same. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] Certainly. The difficulty of the hon. Gentleman's proposal is that the fact that new money is put in does not increase the resources available for capital investment.

Would my right hon. Friend look into the question of free money and say whether this anomaly cannot be removed so that these moneys can be used for items of more general expenditure?

I am not anxious to get into a position in which free moneys are used for purposes for which the Exchequer should be primarily responsible, but I appreciate the force of my hon. Friend's point that there is considerable difficulty—the Select Committee on Estimates drew attention to this—in the use and the spending of free moneys. I am constantly studying whether better guidance can be given.

asked the Minister of Health what progress has been made in establishing a plastic unit in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in view of the need for treatment of burns and other industrial accidents in the district.

The plastic surgeons in Newcastle have the use of a considerable number of beds in three hospitals in the city, and pending the provision of a regional plastic surgery centre there, the department of 36 beds has been maintained at Shotley Bridge.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this is probably the only region in the country where there is not a properly-equipped unit? Although there are beds available they are scattered all over the place and are highly inefficient to run. This is about the only really heavy industrial area that has no properly equipped unit. Will the right hon. Gentleman give priority to the consideration of this new project?

I do not think it is for me to give that sort of priority. It is a matter fundamentally for the board. There have been considerable improvements in recent years in plastic surgery, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, and in the number of surgeons provided in the Newcastle area. I am sure that the board will note what the hon. Gentleman says.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that within their very small capital allocation it is quite impossible for the board to tackle this problem? I am asking whether the right hon. Gentleman will take this matter up with the Chancellor to ensure that some capital is available to do this most vital economic job?

I cannot promise an additional capital allocation for any particular job.

asked the Minister of Health what special capital allocation he is making for the coming financial year to meet the needs of the mental hospitals.

It is for regional hospital boards to decide what particular projects shall be included in their capital programmes, but I have again asked them to devote at least 20 per cent. of their allocations to mental health projects. In addition, two major mental health schemes are being financed from a special central reserve.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the mental hospitals of this country are grossly overcrowded, that most of the buildings are hopelessly out of date and unsuitable, that these conditions are placing an intolerable strain upon the staffs and are hindering recruiting, and that 20 per cent. of the present very small capital allocation is quite insufficient? Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the matter again?

Of course, this is probably the most serious problem facing the National Health Service, and it is precisely for that reason that I insisted upon the minimum figure that I have given. The position would have been a great deal easier if, in the first year or two of the Health Service, a larger proportion of resources had been devoted to the mental field.

asked the Minister of Health to give particulars of the provision he is making for capital expenditure on mental hospital development to relieve the badly overcrowded conditions in the Newcastle region.

The regional hospital board propose to spend in the next financial year about £200,000, almost half of their total net allocation, on developments at mental and mental deficiency hospitals. Of this sum, over half will be to provide new accommodation for patients.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that this expenditure will go some way towards meeting the pressing needs of this area?

This area has very grievous problems in this field, of which I saw something a week or two ago, but within the limits of the amount I can give them they are making a generous allocation to the mental hospitals, and rather more than £100,000 is being given to new accommodation in this field.

When considering the problem of the division of capital allocation between mental and other kinds of hospital accommodation, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that during the first years of the Health Service there was the enormous task of rebuilding the bomb-damaged hospitals, so that the comparison he made earlier is scarcely a fair one?

On the contrary, it is entirely fair. We cannot discuss this matter by Question and answer, but if we come to debate these matters, it will be interesting to see the different percentage allocated to the mental field in 1948–49 and this year.

asked the Minister of Health if he will make special capital allocations for the provision of hospitals in new towns to those regional boards which include one or more new towns within their area.

My Department's total capital allocation for the current year is too small to permit of this, but I have these special needs in mind for action when circumstances permit.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is quite impossible for regional boards to make provision from scratch for these large new communities out of their normal capital allocation? Is he further aware that the North-West Metropolitan Regional Board has five new towns in its area and cannot begin to tackle this problem unless it is dealt with specially by the Ministry?

Certainly I am aware that that board, of which the hon. Member is a member, has five new towns in its area, and I agree that this is a problem which can only be financed from central funds. The building of a hospital is too big an undertaking for a regional board. However, as it becomes possible to build new hospitals, I have to balance the needs of new towns with many other crowded areas. It is fair to remind the hon. Member that not a single new general hospital has been built in England and Wales since before the war.

Would my right hon. Friend particularly bear in mind the position of the county of Essex where we have not only two new towns but various L.C.C. estates, with a consequent great influx of population?

Yes, and as far as possible I try to bear the needs of all areas in mind.

asked the Minister of Health the capital allocation to the Birmingham Regional Hospital Board for 1953–54; and how this compares with that for the current year.

The allocation for 1953–54 is £572,000, compared with £512,000 originally allocated and £575,000 finally authorised for the current year.

Would the right hon. Gentleman bring to the attention of this regional board the fact that, owing to the industrial development on the outskirts of the regional board catchment area, patients needing specialist treatment and consultant service have to travel vast distances, and that the present structure of the availability of such services is out of tune with the demands made by the population?

I have no doubt the regional board will note the point made by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Health the allocation of capital expenditure for the West Cornwall Hospital Management Committee for 1953-54; and how it compares with the allocation for 1952–53.

Capital expenditure is a matter for the regional boards, and no specific allocation is made to management committees. I am, however, informed that in 1953–54 the regional board propose to spend £6,400 on capital works at hospitals in this group; in 1952–53 they spent about £28,000.

Might I ask the Minister whether he will ask the regional board to consider favourably any application it may receive from the West Cornwall Hospital Management Committee for the improvement of the sanitation facilities in the men's ward at Redruth.

That is a detailed matter of which I have no knowledge. Of course the regional board will consider—I do not promise favourably—any representation made from the sources mentioned by the hon. Gentleman.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the answers to these Questions show that unless some increase is made in the capital allocation we shall be allowing our hospital projects to deteriorate seriously, and that we are being penny wise and pound foolish in this matter? Will he not press much more vigorously for an increased capital allocation from his right hon. Friend?

I do not agree at all. I think it is a remarkable thing, of which this Government can be proud, that in this present year we are giving more to the National Health Service Estimates than in any previous year.

asked the Minister of Health if he is satisfied that the rapidly increasing cost of the county ambulance brigade and the hospital car service is solely due to their meeting the essential needs of patients; and what action he is taking.

My right hon. Friend is not aware of any general misuse of the ambulance service but I think there may well be room for more economies. My Department has issued rules for the proper use of the service and instituted an annual costing return, A pilot fact-finding inquiry is also about to be undertaken in two areas.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in the county of Hertford alone the calls on the ambulance brigade last year were four times greater than they were in 1948-49, and that is excluding the hospital car service?

One of the Teasons the inquiry is being made is so that we can be sure that the methods and figures tally in the returns of the various areas. If I might give my hon. Friend an example, in some areas where an ambulance takes a patient to hospital and another one brings him back, it counts as two patients carried; whereas if the same ambulance waits and brings him back, it counts as one patient.

asked the Minister of Health how many patients suffering from tuberculosis in Birmingham are awaiting admission to sanatoria; how many chronic cases are occupying treatment beds; and if he will take steps to facilitate the provision of hostels to relieve the congestion, and meet the needs of those requiring urgent attention.

On 31st December, 1952, the latest date for which I have information, there were 365 names on the waiting list: approximately 126 chronic cases are occupying treatment beds. The capital expenditure available for developments must depend on the urgency of other needs, but the regional hospital board concerned are spending £45,000 this year on improving facilities in their region for the treatment of tuberculosis, and propose to spend a further £47,000 in the coming year.

While appreciating that information, may I ask whether the Minister is aware that the Medical Officer of Health for the City of Birmingham stated in his report that 117 beds were blocked while urgent cases were needing treatment; and that according to the figures the situation today is much worse? Should not some representations be made or some assistance given to enable hostels to be used in order to relieve the congestion?

Perhaps the hon. Member will draw my attention to that report of the Medical Officer, and I will look at it personally.

Is the Minister aware that many of the waiting cases are living in the central areas under very bad conditions and are in contact with large families? Surely something ought to be done to get these people away from their homes to have treatment instead of leaving them in the back streets, in contact with other people?

That is a very different question and one partly for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government.

asked the Minister of Education whether she realises that the village institute at Stocksfield-on-Tyne has been under Government requisition for the past 14 years; and when she plans to arrange for its occupation by the Northumberland local education authority to cease and for its derequisition and restoration to its rightful use.

This village institute has been under requisition since 1941. I am afraid that I can give no indication of when it will be possible to release it.

While not blaming my right hon. Friend for the decisions of her predecessor, may I ask whether she is fully aware of the acute irritation which is being caused to local inhabitants by the prolonged occupation of this institute by one Government Department after another? Furthermore, does my right hon. Friend realise that the Northumberland education authority have pursued a very irrational policy in that they spent £1,000 in providing a kitchen in a nearby school but have now closed down the school? Will my right hon. Friend, therefore, discuss this matter further with the local education authority and try to persuade them to adopt a more rational policy?

The institute to which my hon. Friend refers is, I know, being used as a central kitchen. The authority's building plans for releasing the institute were stopped by economies imposed by the Government in the autumn of 1949.

asked the Minister of Education how many primary and secondary schools are now under construction, compared with the numbers a year ago.

On 31st January last, 665 new primary schools and 321 new secondary schools were under construction in England and Wales. The figures for the same date in 1952 are 868 and 279, respectively.

Is the Minister aware that it is very disturbing indeed to see that the number of primary schools under construction has dropped, and that there has been a cut? At a time when classes in primary schools are becoming more and more crowded, what action is the Minister taking to reverse this trend?

I am glad to assure the hon. Member that he need not be disturbed. The main reason for the drop in the number of primary schools under construction is the increase in the rate of completion. The number of primary schools completed in the year ended 31st January, 1953, was 457, compared with 296 during the corresponding period in 1951–52.

I am very glad to hear of the increased completions, but what is to happen to the children in 1954 and 1955 unless more schools are started now?

They are going into better schools, built more quickly and more cheaply than ever before.

asked the Minister of Education her latest estimate of the numbers of primary and secondary schools on which building work will start in 1953, compared with the numbers in 1951 and 1952.

As the basis of the educational building programme is the financial year, I cannot give an estimate for the calendar year 1953. The programme of work to be started in 1953–54 now includes 423 new primary and secondary schools. During the calendar year 1952, work was started on 346 new primary and secondary schools. The comparable figure for 1951 is 523.

Is the Minister aware that we are pleased she has repented of what she did last year and now proposes to increase the number of schools which she will start this year, but that the number of places at which she is aiming is at least 110,000 short of requirements? Will the right hon. Lady, therefore, reconsider this whole problem and start more schools for the benefit of the children next year and the year after?

As the hon. Member knows, the target laid down by my predecessor was 1,150,000 places by a certain date. I still agree that that is the target which we should reach and, I think, can reach. As for the fact that the hon. Member thinks I have changed my policy and now repent, I only say that we are going on from strength to strength and building more all the time.

asked the Minister of Education the latest estimate of the number of new school places created since 1945.

The total number of new primary and secondary school places brought into use by new building between 1st April, 1945, and 1st February, 1953, was 898,380.

Is the Minister aware that the figures she has just given show that we are seriously lagging behind the necessary provision for school places for children? Will the right hon. Lady do something now to restore the policy that was carried out by the last Government?

No. My reason for not restoring that policy is that the number of new places brought into use increased from about 160,000 in 1951 to nearly 220,000 in 1952.

asked the Prime Minister to which Minister ex-Service men's organisations should make representations concerning the proposed elimination of the Ministry of Pensions.

It would be convenient if these representations were made in the first instance to my hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions, who will as necessary consult the other Ministers concerned.

Does this mean that the Prime Minister has not yet appointed a Minister for the co-ordination of disintegration? As the right hon. Gentleman should know, to old soldiers like us it is more important to have integration than disintegration.

I think the meaning was quite apparent from my answer.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that as a pensioner I am much more interested in the service I receive than the name of the Ministry providing it?

asked the Prime Minister his reasons for refusing to meet a delegation from the Central African Committee; and if he is aware that his refusal has caused dismay amongst all sections of the community.

I see no reason for any dismay in any quarter that the delegation should be received by the two principal Secretaries of State who are most closely and earnestly considering the problem of Central African Federation.

Does not the Prime Minister think that in view of the proposed Central African Federation, it would have been a gesture on his part and would have helped to cement the ties between the people of Central Africa and this country if he had met the delegation?

I think I must in reason follow the principle of devolution in some of these very serious and complicated questions.

Is the Prime Minister aware that it is not in keeping with his usual courtesy to refuse to receive a deputation presenting a memorial signed by Members of both Houses of Parliament, together with leading members of the Churches, including the President of the Methodist Conference and leading members of the Church of Scotland and of the Church of England, including the Bishops of Bristol and Worcester and the Dean of St. Pauls?

I cannot think that these dignitaries have in any way been treated with lack of consideration and respect by the fact that they were referred to the two principal Secretaries of State who are masters of the whole of this—[HON. MEMBERS: "Not masters."]—masters of all the details of this intricate problem.