asked the Minister of Education what effect the increase in the price of school meals has had on the number of children partaking of these meals

asked the Minister of Education the daily average of dinners served in schools during the first two weeks in March, 1953; and how this compares with a similar period in 1952.

I refer the hon. Members to the reply I gave on 19th March to the hon. Members for Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) and Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd).

In view of the fact that these increased prices have now been in operation for nearly four weeks, and in view of the fact that returns are made to local authorities week by week, is there any reason why the Minister should not announce these figures very shortly?

As I said, I am asking local education authorities to let me know the number of school dinners provided on a day in June.

Is there any reason why the figures cannot be made available for the first two weeks in March? Is the Minister aware that this is an important matter? What is the difficulty which prevents that from being done?

I will, in June, get the figures for June of this year and June of last year. I think it is unnecessary to ask local education authorities to send in their figures too often. They will get the comparable figures for the date I have given in June.

asked the Minister of Education if she is now able to make a statement on her recent discussions with representatives of adult education organisations concerning the grants for 1953–54.

asked the Minister of Education whether she has completed her consideration and discussions; and if she will now make a statement on the reduction of grants for adult education.

asked the Minister of Education if she has now completed her discussions regarding the grant for adult education in 1953–54; and if she will make a statement.

My discussions are not yet complete and I cannot yet make any statement.

Can the Minister say why she has taken so long to reverse the decision, which she announced on 12th February, that she was proposing a cut in the Estimates for adult education of about £34,000? Would it not be better if at this stage she yielded to the pressure of the Opposition, the blandishments of the T.U.C. and the patience of the organisations concerned, and gave way on this matter?

First, I made no statement in February that there would be a cut of 10 per cent. Second, I have received only recently—probably within the last eight or nine days—the figures for which I asked. They have to come from 47 different bodies. Those figures then have to be analysed. I shall then ask that leaders of the responsible bodies should come to meet me and discuss them. Until that is done, I cannot make a statement.

Does the right hon. Lady deny that she proposed the cut? Does she realise that this inexcusable procrastination is disheartening these bodies and that some people believe that that was the calculated purpose?

I do not know that these bodies are disheartened. I must say that when they came to see me they were very willing to discuss this matter, and they had been discussing it with my officials previously. They know that I am going to see them again to discuss the matter further before I reach any conclusion.

Is it not clear that the Minister's sympathy with, and interest in, adult education have been made manifest throughout these discussions, and that the future of this valuable form of education can be safely left in her hands?

I think that is absolutely clear from the deputations which I have received. The difficulty is in assembling certain facts and figures. They have to come from 47 different bodies, because the grant is paid separately. I have already said—and I also said it on the Adjournment Motion—that the grant may be less, it may be the same or it may be more; but I want to see the figures and discuss them with those bodies.

Cannot the right hon. Lady assure the House that, whatever else she does, she will certainly not make it more difficult for the W.E.A. to carry on its activities in the future than it has been in the past?

I am certainly in favour of the work being carried on, but the hon. Gentleman may not perhaps know that the W.E.A. get a quarter of the grant. As I said, there is a very difficult interchange between the W.E.A. and the University Extra-Mural Depart- ments, and I think four-fifths goes to the Extra-Mural Departments. The majority of the fees go to the W.E.A., so that it is a very complex problem. That is why we are studying it.

asked the Minister of Education to give the date and terms of the communication she sent to the responsible bodies, university and other, for liberal adult education when she told them she was going to reduce the rate of her grants from the beginning of the educational year 1953–54 by 10 per cent.; and if she will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the responsible bodies to whom she sent this intimation.

asked the Minister of Education on what date, in what manner and upon what occasion she told the responsible bodies for adult education that she proposed to reduce the rate of her grants from the beginning of the educational year 1953–54 by 10 per cent.

Letters were sent on 7th January of this year to the Chairman of the Universities Council for Adult Education and the General Secretary of the W.E.A. At the same time an intimation was given that I was prepared to discuss my proposals with a deputation of the organisations concerned whenever they wished to see me.

The right hon. Lady admits that she did, as she told my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) on 13th February, say that there would be a 10 per cent. cut?

I think it would be very inadvisable at this moment, when discussions are going on, to go into details, but the fact is as I have stated, that I asked them to come to have discussions about this £34,000. If I had decided to make a cut completely of £34,000 I should not have asked them to come to discuss it with me. I did ask them to come, and the discussions are still going on concerning what should be done.

Is the right hon. Lady's defence, then, that she misled the House on 13th February when she told my hon. Friend:

"I have told these bodies that I propose to reduce the rate of my grants, from the beginning of the educational year 1953–54, by 10 per cent., as compared with those payable in the current educational year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13 th February, 1953; Vol. 511, c. 81.]?

She said nothing then about asking them to come to discuss the matter.

As the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out, the word is "proposed." In the letter I suggested that they should come to discuss the matter with me. That was in January. They did come, and discussed it with my officers. I then received a deputation myself. With the words which the right hon. Gentleman has read I am fully in agreement, and the word is "proposed."

Does the right hon. Lady recollect that the word I used on Friday, which she corrected, was that she "suggested" the cut? She went out of her way to correct what I said. If it is inadvisable now to say anything, why was it advisable for her to say something on 12th February? If she cannot act now because she has not the relevant information, why did she act then without information?

I had certain information that I gave to the House during an Adjournment debate recently. Because of the information, I asked bodies concerned to come and discuss the reduction. Because of the figures I then had, which I gave to the House, I asked for further figures which might make a difference to the figure I had. I have now got those figures and am considering them, and shall discuss the matter again with the responsible bodies.

Is not the 1953–54 Vote for adult education the highest on record, and even if it were cut by 10 per cent., would it not still be higher than that for 1950–51, the last year when hon. Gentlemen opposite were in office?

I certainly agree that the amount of grant that I gave for the present financial year was larger than any grant ever given before. We are now discussing what the grant should be for the next academic year, and it is because of that that I want to have fuller facts and figures before I make my decision.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that all this vacillation is upsetting the adult education programme for next year? Preparations are already being made for university extension classes, tutorial classes and pioneer work in other directions. The Government's indecision is wrecking future adult education in Britain.

That is not the point of view which has been put to me by those who have come to see me, and they are responsible people.

Is it not a fact that nobody wants this cut and that it would not have been necessary if it had not been for the appalling financial policy of the Labour Government?

We cannot debate this matter now.

On a point of order. In view of the fact that on 13th February, in answer to a Question of mine, the Minister clearly said that she proposed to make a 10 per cent. reduction and not that she proposed to discuss it, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Education whether she has considered the resolution submitted to her by the University College of Leicester Board of Adult Education, associating itself with the expressions of dismay that have been conveyed to her by various responsible bodies at the proposal to reduce by 10 per cent. the grant-aid payable on the teaching programmes of those bodies; whether she is aware that the Board has been compelled to increase the fees twice within recent years to help to meet the rise in costs, which have not included her Department's grant; and what answer she has given.

Yes, Sir, I have seen the resolution of the University College of Leicester Board of Adult Education, and I have replied that I am carefully considering what they have told me.

Is the Minister aware of the fact that the Board state that if the fees are further raised, they believe that it will have the effect of excluding from classes and courses the less well-paid students, that is, the younger students at the beginning of their careers, and the weekly wage earners? In view of that, will she refrain from making these increases which she contemplates?

I was a little mystified by the hon. Gentleman's Question, because he asks if I am aware that

"… the Board has been compelled to increase the fees twice within recent years to help to meet the rise in costs, which have not included her Department's grant; …"

There are certain classes of adult education which do not come within that sphere at all. As I told the hon. Gentleman, I am considering the report.

asked the Minister of Education if, in view of the serious and rapid increase in the numbers of oversized classes, she will institute more frequent official checks of the numbers of such classes and publish the results.

Returns of the number of oversize classes are collected annually. I do not think that any advantage would be gained by asking for more frequent returns.

Has not the Minister considered that she could achieve something constructive? Is she aware that the most up-to-date figures are those for January, 1952, and that on the basis of previous experience we always have to wait for at least eight months to get the figures? Is it not possible to speed up the system of providing information, if it is impossible to have a more frequent check on the growth of the size of classes?

I have looked into the possibility of speeding up the information, but it is rather difficult. These returns take some time to prepare, and to increase their frequency would be to add to the work of local authorities and of teachers. If I can speed it up, I shall be only too willing to do so, but I think the frequency of the returns does not help us to tackle the problem. We want to see the size of classes reduced. The frequency of the returns does not help us and it might give more work more often to the teachers.

asked the Minister of Education how many children under five years of age were attending State infants schools at the last convenient date; how this compares with the previous 12 months; and if she will give an assurance that the policy of admitting under fives will be continued.

In January, 1952, there were about 175,000 children under five years of age in maintained primary schools other than nursery schools in England and Wales, compared with just under 154,000 a year earlier. My policy is not to discourage the provision of nursery classes for children under five where there is a demand for them and satisfactory conditions can be provided. Where the admission of children under five would have an adverse effect on the older children I am bound to take the line that this is an undesirable practice.

Is the Minister aware that her building policy is making it necessary for some education authorities to restrict the admittance of children under five? Is she aware that I believe they have done so in Cardiff?

I quite agree that the pressure on buildings must be for schools for children of compulsory school age. I think the hon. Member will agree with that. While this increase in the number of pupils continues we must do everything we can for nursery classes in those buildings.

Is the Minister aware that some authorities are deliberately thinking of cutting down the admission of children under five merely in order to keep the rates down? Will she express her disapproval of that kind of thing.

I do not know of any case, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to bring to my notice any case he knows. As for the cutting down of the number of children entering schools in order that there shall be no extra buildings and no extra teachers, I cannot see how that will make much difference to the rates.

asked the Minister of Education whether she is aware of the severe restrictions imposed on teachers in training at Bangor Normal College; and whether she will make a statement.

I am aware of recent criticism of the students' regulations at Bangor Normal College and I am glad to know that these are being considered by the college authorities.

Is the Minister aware that if she is able to improve conditions at this college she will receive the support of public opinion throughout Wales? Is she further aware that the college authorities are now trying to treat her representations with the same highhanded indifference as they would if her name were Sheila Davies?

I think that the college authorities and the hon. Member know that that is not my name.

asked the Minister of Education what reply she has received from the governors of the Normal Training College, Bangor, following her decision that Miss Sheila Davies was expelled on unreasonable grounds; and if she will make a statement.

I have not yet received any communication from the governors of the college.

Is it not very unsatisfactory that the secretary to the governors should issue to the Press a statement confirming the action of the principal and the governors after the right hon. Lady has told them, exercising her rights under the Act, that the girl was expelled on unreasonable grounds? Is it not most unsatisfactory that the girl has never had any charge put to her as to the conduct which is alleged to be unsatisfactory? Will the right hon. Lady ensure that the governors of the college do not get away with this kind of thing?

As the hon. Member knows, I came to a decision, and my decision was communicated to the governors. I have not yet received any reply from them and, therefore, at the moment it would be unwise for me to make any further statement.

Will the right hon. Lady bring to the notice of the governors of the college that some 30 or 40 years ago one of the university colleges in Wales dispensed with many of the ridiculous restrictions which they are trying to impose on the students? Will she ask them to take note of what the students' representative council says in future and not penalise the president merely because she is conveying what the representative council wishes?

Yes, Sir, but the hon. Gentleman is there dealing with a different matter from that contained in the Question. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is a separate question. I have already dealt with the matter raised by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley), and the other matter is a separate issue.

Will the right hon. Lady assure the principal of the college that it is her duty, and that she intends to fulfil it, to ensure that intending teachers have a reasonably free existence in their training colleges?

I think that is now quite clear to the governors of the college. I am waiting to hear from them, and I should not like to make any statement in the House until I have had their reply to the action which I was bound to take.

Will the right hon. Lady send a pre-paid envelope in order to get a reply quickly?

asked the Minister of Education what consultations she is having with the Dental Association with a view to increasing the number of dentists in those areas where the need is greatest.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health and I are having a discussion later today with representatives of the British Dental Association.

Will my right hon. Friend instruct her officials, and, if possible, Ministry of Health officials, in all their negotiations to treat representatives of an honourable profession with due consideration?

As far as I am aware the officials of my Department and of other Departments do treat all representatives in that way.

asked the Minister of Education what consideration led to her issuing to local education authorities Circular 263 on university awards.

My Circular was issued in connection with the new Note on Procedure for selecting candidates for university awards which has recently been agreed between the universities and the local authority associations. The issue of the Note appeared to me to provide a convenient opportunity for drawing the attention of local education authorities to a number of important points in connection with the selection of candidates for university awards.

As there is still need for more university students, is the right hon. Lady aware that, while we welcome her urging on certain local authorities the taking of a keener interest in the selection of university students, and in the widening of the range and the increasing of the number of awards, we are perturbed lest her Circular should be regarded as a discouragement to those authorities already making adequate provision? Can she assure us that that is not so?

I can certainly give that assurance to the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Education the total amount paid from public sources to assist the payment of fees and expenses incurred by university students.

For 1952–53 the estimated charge on my Vote for awards made direct by my Department for fees and maintenance of students at universities is some £4 million. I have no corresponding figure of the cost of awards made by local education authorities for 1952–53, but I estimate that for 1951–52 the total expenditure of local education authorities on fees and maintenance of students at universities was about £4,900,000. This includes Exchequer grant of about £3 million.

Can the right hon. Lady say off-hand what percentage that represents?

Not off-hand. I would rather the hon. Gentleman put down a Question.

asked the Minister of Education when she expects to be able to give a decision on the application for controlled status for Penryn Voluntary Church of England School, Cornwall.

The controlled status Order for Penryn Primary School was made on 16th March. I am sorry that it was delayed.

While thanking the Minister for that statement, may I ask her to bear in mind that the two county primary schools in Penryn, of which this school is one, are in a deplorable state, and will she consider sympathetically any proposals for a new school or a new status for the school?

That, of course, is a completely different question. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put it down.

asked the Minister of Education when she expects the canteen servery for Penryn Voluntary Church of England School, Cornwall, to be ready for use.

At the beginning of the summer term.

Will the right hon. Lady remember that I received from the Parliamentary Secretary 10 weeks ago a promise that the servery would probably be ready by the middle of March?

The final approval for the building of the servery was given in August, 1952.

asked the Minister of Education which county education authorities are allocating places to independent schools to watch the Coronation procession from the Embankment.

I understand that the Surrey local education authority have decided to make some provision for children attending independent schools.

Why have not all the education authorities concerned done so? Does my right hon. Friend not think that it is highly discriminatory against independent schools that they are not being treated on exactly the same basis as those of the local authorities?

The matter is essentially one for decision by the individual authorities concerned. I must leave it entirely to them, but I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that a child attending school does not cease to be called a schoolchild because his parents are paying for his education.

asked the Minister of Education how many school buildings which have been condemned as unsuitable are still in use; in what areas they are located; and how many children are on the rolls of these schools.

A list drawn up in 1925 contained 2,827 schools of varying degrees of unsuitability. No comparable list has been drawn up since, but of the schools on the original list, 595 are still in use. I cannot say without examining the returns for each school how many children are attending them. I am sending the hon. Member a list of the areas, showing the number of schools in each.

Now that the Minister has turned over a new leaf in a small way by increasing the number of schools to be started this year, can she say how soon she will have any prospect at all of" ending this shameful situation in which nearly 600 schools condemned 28 years ago are still being used?

Of course, I am glad to hear from the hon. Member that I have turned over even a small leaf. I am continuing—and I say this in no party spirit—the policy my predecessor found necessary, and which, I agree, is necessary, first to deal with the absolute necessity of providing schools for the extra number of children coming to the schools. I am looking forward to a time when it may be possible to deal with the old schools, but I cannot say when it will be possible to do so.

Since it seems likely that these schools may exist for some years, can the Minister give us an assurance that more will be done to improve them, and particularly the sanitary arrangements of some of those schools?

Yes, I have increased the amount that local authorities can spend out of their allocations on minor projects, and a good many improvements are being done in that way.

Is my right hon. Friend not aware that her policy is resulting in the overcrowding of such places as grammar schools and existing buildings in which the facilities are totally unsuitable for half the number accommodated there?

I certainly want to increase the amount of school accommodation. Any overcrowding in grammar schools at this moment cannot, at any rate, be my fault. Very few grammar schools have been built since I came into office. As I have told the House previously, we are increasing the amount of school building as rapidly as we possibly can.

asked the Minister of Education (1) whether she can now make a statement on what action she proposes to take about the sanitary conditions of the Exchange School buildings, West Hartlepool, as revealed in a report of an independent architect, a copy of which was sent to her on 4th March, 1953, who examined the school buildings on 25th February, 1953;

(2) what expenditure she has authorised on the Exchange School buildings, West Hartlepool, since 1st October, 1952; what further expenditure she expects to authorise in the next three months; and what evidence she has that such expenditure will make this building suitable as a primary school.

As I have already informed the hon. Member, those premises cannot be regarded as unfit for use, though they are unsatisfactory in a number of respects. To mitigate the defects, I have authorised improvements to the lighting and heating at an estimated cost of £493. Further expenditure has been incurred on repairs and redecorations. The local education authority have also approved proposals for repairs to the sanitary accommodation, and I have urged that this work should be done quickly.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that the school was abandoned by the local education authority in 1934 as being totally out of place in modern education, that her inspector inspected the school in December and, in a letter dated 3rd March, told her of all the defects, which she has never seen, and yet she has taken the responsibility for continuing the school? Is she also aware that it was examined by an independent architect on 5th March and that he described it as "shocking," and that within the last two weeks it has been examined by a sanitary inspector of the local authority, who has corroborated that?

That is exactly why these repairs and alterations to the sanitary work are now being done.

asked the Minister of Education whether she will define the limits of the responsibilities and duties assigned by her to the Parliamentary Secretary of her Department.

As Minister I am necessarily fully responsible for the work of my Department. The duties of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary are to assist me generally in discharging those responsibilities.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that we were all very surprised to learn on Friday that the Parliamentary Secretary was not the instigator of the cuts in adult education, but that most educationists regard him as a bad influence upon her and would be relieved if he were declared redundant?

I am not sure of the relevance of that supplementary question, but if the hon. Member was as much help to his Ministry and his Minister when he was a Parliamentary Secretary as my Parliamentary Secretary has been, he must have been a very good Parliamentary Secretary.

asked the Minister of Education whether she will make a statement on the further experiment now contemplated in television broadcasts for schools.

This is primarily a matter for the B.B.C. and the School Broadcasting Council. They have not yet put any proposals to me.

Will the right hon. Lady agree that the results of the first experiment were hopeful? Will she be more encouraging towards the attitude which is being taken by the School Broadcasting Council in developing these experiments?

The B.B.C. and the School Broadcasting Council have not yet submitted to me a copy of their joint report on the pilot experiment of May. 1952.

Will the right hon. Lady be a little more encouraging and not merely wait for proposals to be submitted to her? Television must be one of the greatest assets that the schools of the future will have.

Primarily, this is in the hands of the B.B.C. and the School Broadcasting Council; it is for them to submit proposals. I shall consider their proposals carefully, but they have not yet been submitted.

asked the Minister of Education what investigations have been made by her Department into the influence of commercial television on children of school age.

None, Sir.

Has the right hon. Lady studied the evidence of the harmful effects of commercialised television on American schoolchildren? Will she urge on her colleagues that the interests of children in this matter should be regarded as at least as important as the interests of commercial advertisers?

I cannot study the influence of commercial television in this country as there is none at present. That in the United States has been dealt with briefly in a book published last month by U.N.E.S.C.O., which I have studied. There, under the heading "The influence of television on the school work of American pupils" it says that there was no significant difference in the school achievement between televiewing children and non-televiewing children.

The reference in the report is not to commercialised television but to public service education television in the United States, and will she take her responsibilities more seriously in future? If she wants to study British advertisers' commercial broadcasting, will she listen to Radio Luxembourg for a moment?

I think that this report refers to television as a whole. As to my study of Radio Luxembourg, may I say that if I had a little more free time from this House and my duties, I might be able to study it?

asked the President of the Board of Trade what limitations are placed on the importation of cortisone.

Licences permitting private commercial imports of finished cortisone are not at present being issued. Supplies are purchased by the Ministry of Health for continuing clinical research and for use in selected hospitals where treatment can be strictly supervised.

Would the right hon. Gentleman impress upon his right hon. Friend that it is not much use having people in hospital and giving them this treatment, which I understand is excellent treatment, if it is to be discontinued once the patients leave hospital?

I understand that the Ministry of Health still consider it necessary to control the use of this drug very carefully, as the knowledge of its long-term effects are so far incomplete. The Ministry of Health think that they can ensure that treatment is adequately supervised only if it is carried out in this way for the present.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will prohibit the import of carrots during the next main crop season.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if, in view of the productive capacity of the home growers, he will prohibit the importation of carrots this year or at least during the period when the main home crop is available.

As announced on 27th January, the import of carrots will be prohibited from 1st June to 31st July. Representations have been received from the National Farmers' Union that imports of maincrop carrots should also be prohibited. On the evidence so far submitted, my right hon. Friends the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Minister of Food and I are not satisfied that a case for such prohibition has been established. We propose, however, to give further consideration to the question before the next maincrop becomes available, and any further evidence which the National Farmers' Union submit will be taken into account.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that he should consult the Secretary of State for Scotland on this matter as well, because the cropping season there is not quite the same as the dates which he has stated?

I will certainly do that.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the home grower is capable of satisfying fully the needs of the home market, and will he ensure that the home grower is given first place in that market?

I believe that the home grower is competitive so far as price is concerned and, I am sure, quality, and in those circumstances I hope that the fears expressed will not be justified.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the proposed increases in tariff rates on imports of British textile and engineering goods into Australia: and what representations he is making to the Australian Government about this.

I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the answer given to the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt) on 12th March. Copies of the Australian Tariff Board's Report on internal combustion engines have now been received and are being studied by the Departments concerned.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it would be a serious matter if Australia raised tariff rates on these important British exports?

So far as textiles are concerned, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will look at the answer to the previous Question. That is a fairly small problem. On the question of internal combustion engines. I am studying the Report.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the further downward trend of United Kingdom exports in January and February; and what action he proposes to take to arrest this decline.

Although the monthly average of our exports for January and February, 1953, was £206 million compared with the figure of £213 million to which they had risen in the fourth quarter of 1952, no reliable inferences can be made, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows, about the trend of exports from figures for such a short period. The Government are doing all they can to help our exporters in the considerable efforts they are making to overcome the difficulties of selling our goods in world markets.

Are not the Government a little complacent about this matter? As the President has just made large relaxations of control of imports, and as there is no sign of the recovery of exports or, indeed, of any reciprocal concessions by any other countries, how does he think that he is going to achieve the export surplus which the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he was going to achieve?

I do not think that the Government can be accused of complacency in this matter. The steps taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to put our internal economy in order are necessary if we are to be able to make a satisfactory export drive.

Is it not a fact that it is desirable to balance our overseas payments, if necessary at a slightly lower figure than last year, rather than have a vast turnover and a heavy trading loss in the shape of an adverse balance on overseas trading?

I agree with my hon. Friend that it certainly is necessary to balance it.

Is the President of the Board of Trade encouraged by the fact that ever since the Chancellor of the Exchequer took the steps to which he refers, exports have in fact fallen?

I am very much encouraged by the fact that our overseas balance, which was in such a disastrous condition 15 months ago, is now in very much more satisfactory shape.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not well aware that the improvement in the trade balance is entirely due to changes on the import side?

I am not aware that it is entirely due to changes on the import side. I am quite satisfied that the means taken by my right hon. Friend played a very large and integral part in achieving this state of affairs.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if the review of industry in Slough in relation to the increased population accompanying the new L.C.C. estates has been completed by his Department; and how far the restrictions on industrial expansion in the borough will be relaxed.

The establishment of the two new L.C.C. estates in the Slough area is, of course, one of the factors which we take into account in considering applications for industrial expansion there. We shall continue to consider all applications for industrial development certificates on their merits.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has been frustration of development for four years because of the drainage situation, and as there is likely to be a further large expansion at Slough next year, will he remove the present restrictions on expansion there?

I can only repeat that I judge on its merits each case as it comes before me.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what agreements have recently been concluded for the importation of horticultural produce from other countries which have not supplied us in 1951 or 1952; which are the countries; what horticultural products are covered; and what is the value expected from each country.

The only new commitment of this kind is contained in the agreement we have recently concluded with Denmark for trade in 1953, and permits the import of £1,000 of cut flowers before 30th April.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many officers employed by his Department now have power to enter premises without production of a justice's warrant; and what steps he is taking to reduce these numbers.

Ninety-one, Sir. The need for the use of warrants issued by the Board of Trade is constantly examined with a view to keeping their number down to the minimum necessary. During the last 12 months the number of warrant-holders has been reduced by about 45 per cent.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for what has been done, may I ask whether he does not agree that it is undesirable that officers of his Department should continue to enjoy powers in excess of those possessed by our police forces, and does he agree that the protections which were designed to prevent the abuse of the powers by the police should also be made available for the public against abuse by his officers?

The number of these officers has been very nearly halved during the last 12 months, and, as my hon. Friend is aware, the retention of some power of this kind is necessary for the carrying out of the duties imposed upon them.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the basis of the totalitarian State is the right of entry without warrant? Therefore, the fewer of these people there are the less likely is it that we will become a police State.

asked the President of the Board of Trade to state for 1951–52 the numbers of first-feature and supporting programme film quota defaults; the average quotas fulfilled by, and the number of certificates of exemption granted to, exhibitors; the numbers of British films available for showing on each quota; and if he is satisfied with the present standard of quota observance.

Since the answer to the hon. Member's Question is necessarily lengthy and contains a number of figures, I will, with his permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can the Minister say whether the default has increased or decreased, and whether, on the basis of last year's experience, he is fully assured that the production of films is sufficient and good enough to maintain the quota and a better standard of quota observance during the coming year?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will look at the answer, which contains a number of figures, and put down any Questions on it which he may think necessary.

asked the President of the Board of Trade the number and species of all animals and birds imported from India during 1952; and the purpose for which they were imported.

The total value of animals, including birds and fishes, imported from India in 1952 was £22,339. No animals were recorded as being imported for food or for breeding, and there were no imports of horses or greyhounds; but the total includes 1,750 other quadrupeds valued at £7,845. I regret that I have no further particulars of these imports or of the purpose for which they were made.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether these figures include those for Pakistan and Ceylon, and if not, could I have that information?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put that down.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what complaints he has received from British merchants of discrimination by Spain against British exports in violation of its trade agreement.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how far there is discrimination against British exports to Spain.

The Spanish authorities are, I understand, issuing licences fairly freely for the import of less-essential goods from various European countries of whose currencies they are not short. They have, however, done little as yet to carry out their undertaking to issue licences for the import of these goods from the United Kingdom at the agreed quarterly rate. The reason they give for this is the delay in their receiving sterling from Spanish exports. I have received a considerable number of complaints from United Kingdom exporters, and arrangements have been made for a meeting with the Spanish authorities next month in order to review the position.

Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that the trade figures show that we are importing from Spain a much larger quantity of goods of sterling value than they are importing from this country, and therefore, the excuse that they are short of sterling cannot be held as valid?

I am satisfied that the Spanish authorities could issue licences more freely than at present, and that is the object of the meeting which I have arranged.

To ask the Prime Minister if, in view of the recent conciliatory statements by Soviet spokesmen. he will state what action he has now taken, and what progress has been made towards meeting Mr. Malenkov in an effort to lessen international tension.

TO ask the Prime Minister what approaches he has made since 2nd March to the Presidents of the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for the purposes of initiating three-Power talks; and what were the results attained.

TO ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the friendly and conciliatory nature of the speech made by President Malenkov at the recent meeting of the Supreme Soviet of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and the subsequent tendencies shown by the Soviet Government to enter into high level discussions, he will now take the necessary steps to invite Presidents Eisenhower and Malenkov to join him in London for the purpose of initiating three-Power talks, in an attempt to resolve present international difficulties.

I will, with permission, answer Questions Nos. 45, 47 and 49 together.

On a point of order. The Prime Minister said that he would, with permission, answer Questions Nos. 47 and 45. I have, in fact, given notice that I desire No. 47 to be transferred. May I, therefore, ask the Prime Minister not to answer it with No. 45?

When the right hon. Gentleman gives his answer, I think he should exclude No. 47 because that has been withdrawn.

I will answer any of the three Questions mentioned.

Her Majesty's Government naturally welcome any indications that the Soviet Government wish to lower the political temperature. I do not feel in other matters that I need add to the answers I have given upon questions of this character.

Why is the Prime Minister so obstinate on a matter about which at one time he was chief advocate, and is he not aware that public anxiety has been increased by the slowness with which this Government have taken up the offer of the Russians to discuss the bringing down of planes with the idea of preventing a repetition? Will the Prime Minister say what is the reason for this form of creeping paralysis?

When the Soviet Government wished to discuss the question about the planes, it was thought necessary that inquiries should be made of other Governments associated with us on the same front, and that is why there was a little delay. As I made quite clear to the House, we welcome the opportunity of a meeting between the authorities concerned on both sides with General Chuikov.

Is the Prime Minister hoping for any progress in the next few days or the next few weeks?

I have a feeling that nearly all of us feel the same about these things. Do let us be careful not to try and press any particular step or date or occasion. Even if great results could not be obtained, it might be that small results would be beneficial.

In the last part of Question No. 49 I have asked the Prime Minister whether he would at least take the initial step of asking President Eisenhower and Mr. Malenkov whether they would be prepared to come to London to meet him? Will the right hon. Gentleman say why he cannot at least make that approach or make a statement to the effect that he would be willing to make that approach? That would at least show willingness on the part of Her Majesty's Government and would reciprocate some of the conciliatory statements which we are getting from Mr. Malenkov at the moment.

Supposing we took the step which the hon. Member advocates and in both cases we met with negative answers, does he think the situation would be improved?

May we take it that the Prime Minister has now come to the conclusion that negotiations on matters of foreign affairs are far better conducted through the Foreign Office?

That is a very sweeping statement. I am quite clear that when there is complete agreement between the Foreign Office and the Prime Minister, as there has always been over many years between me and my right hon. Friend, no such question of refined discrimination arises.

asked the Prime Minister, as the head of our defence Forces, whether he was informed of the shortage of ammunition for United Nations troops in Korea; and what action was taken in the matter.

I am informed that the ammunition supply in Korea has always been sufficient to meet the operational requirements of the United Nations Forces, and shortages of ammunition have not restricted the planning of operations.

But has the right hon. Gentleman not been informed of the statement made quite recently by General van Fleet on his retirement from the command in Korea to the effect that there has been a considerable shortage of ammunition?

I have to rely upon the official information which is transmitted to us in due course. I cannot deal with every statement that is made by an ex-commander—or even by an ex-Cabinet Minister.

But would the Prime Minister be good enough to address his mind seriously to this question? Does he regard it as satisfactory that statements should be made to Congressional Committees in the United States by retiring commanders on the subject of the alleged shortage of ammunition without information being conveyed to this House in order to remove a possible misleading statement of this kind?

I do not think it would be a good thing if we were to let our procedure in this House be governed by investigations of Congressional Committees in the United States. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman ought to be very careful when he pursues this line, as he might be falling out with some of his colleagues below the Gangway.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman understand that I am anxious not to fall out with anybody, but if I had to choose between my hon. Friends below the Gangway and the Prime Minister I should prefer the right hon. Gentleman, because he is much easier to handle. Will he be good enough to make inquiries and to ascertain whether the statements made by General van Fleet are accurate? After all, we ought to be assured on a very important subject of this kind.

We have regular reports, and very close and intimate relations prevail between the British Military Representative and the Commander-in-Chief in Korea. I have no doubt that the reports we have received fully justify us in giving our full confidence to the character of the statements made. May I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the compliment which he paid me, and only express my regret that he should have thought it necessary to add any reservation.

rose—

It is past half-past three.

To ask the Minister of Health whether he will make a statement regarding the recent outbreak of smallpox in Todmorden.

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will answer Question No. 94. The outbreak started among workers at a spinning mill in Todmorden who handle imported raw cotton. It seems possible that this was the source of infection both there and in a further case at Oldham. There is no evidence from previous experience that the disease can be spread by cotton except in its raw state, or as cotton waste. Up to this morning 14 cases had been confirmed, including 11 at Todmorden. Two of these cases have died. There are also four suspected cases. So far no case of smallpox has occurred outside the range of known contacts with the original cases.

All possible preventive steps are being taken by the medical officers of health concerned, and I would urge cotton operatives and others to whom vaccination is offered to obtain protection in this way. I have requested the Medical Research Council to carry out such investigations as are possible into the highly technical and difficult question of the transmission of smallpox infection by raw cotton.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his comprehensive statement may I ask him a Question about which there may be grounds for disquiet? The first case diagnosed was that of a man while he was in the Halifax Hospital. Is there any ground for thinking that there may have been avoidable delay or unusual difficulty in diagnosing the first case?

I think it true to say that there was some delay in diagnosing the first case, but frankly, that is not altogether surprising because, happily, our doctors never, or very rarely, see smallpox in this country, I would rather not go further into what is a clinical matter.

Is there any danger of the infection being spread in any cotton yarn, cloth or finished materials which may have been made from that particular cotton?

I am advised that there is not the slightest danger of infection being spread in that way, either in the piece or in the finished article.

What was the original vaccinal condition of the people who are now suffering from smallpox?

There are about 18 cases and I could not be sure about all of them. If the hon. Gentleman would like the details perhaps he would put a Question down.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we very much appreciate the prompt action which has been taken by the Ministry of Health from the time they had the information, and the courteous way in which the right hon. Gentleman personally has dealt with the matter. Can he give an assurance—I am sure he will —that will prevent in Oldham a lack of confidence, that the Ministry of Health are keeping in very close touch with the facts of the situation, which is to be regarded with some gravity, and that he is satisfied that all the available measures are being taken?

Yes, I am so satisfied. My senior medical officers in this field have been on the spot for some time— as soon as it was realised what the outbreak was.

Can the Minister indicate whether the original source of the raw cotton has been traced, and whether investigations have been made and steps taken to prevent further entry from a similar source so long as there is any doubt about it?

Yes, those steps have been taken. The hon. Gentleman will realise that those steps fall very largely outside my Department, but the steps that can be taken to isolate the particular bales and not to use any more of the consignment in question have been taken.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any further statement to make on the subject of the arrests in Germany of Dr. Naumann and other Nazis.

Yes, Sir. In my statement to the House on 28th January on the detention of seven former leading Nazis by the British authorities in Germany I said that the investigation of the evidence was continuing and would take several weeks to complete. The results have now been communicated to the German Federal Chancellor, who has asked that Naumann and his associates be handed over to the German Federal authorities for investigation and prosecution by them in a German court.

I have authorised the High Commissioner to comply with this request and he is, of course, handing over to the German authorities the seized documents and the evidence collected during the investigation.

The German authorities may decide not to prosecute some of the seven men detained, and in that event those not to be prosecuted will be released; but their detention and interrogation, and the impounding of their documents, will have provided valuable evidence for the prosecution of Naumann and his associates.

The matter will now come before the German courts and it would not be proper for me to attempt to foretell their verdict. I think, however, that the decision now taken by Dr. Adenauer and the German Federal Government, which is welcomed by Her Majesty's Government, fully justifies the action taken by the British High Commissioner, on my authority, in detaining these men for interrogation under his special powers.

Our intention from the beginning has been to frustrate a serious potential danger, to bring the facts to light and to enable the German authorities and the German people to form their own judgment upon them. I trust that this purpose will now be served and this important matter should, I think, now be left in the hands of the German Federal Government and the German courts.

The right hon. Gentleman will recollect that in answer to a supplementary question which I put to him on a previous Question, he said that the German Government had not the same powers as the British authorities to deal with cases like this. Are we to take it, therefore, that the principle has been established that if similar cases to this should arise, the initiative will, first of all, be taken by the High Commissioner?

What I said to the House, which is true, was, that only the occupying Power has the powers to arrest for examination and interrogation, which is what we did in this case. We have handed over the results of our interrogations to the German authorities, who have now expressed their desire to proceed themselves. To me that seems the just and the right solution of this difficult business.

This puts rather a different complexion on the situation. Was it not the case that these men were arrested by the High Commissioner under his special powers because they were considered to be engaged in conspiracies calculated to endanger the security of the occupying Forces? If that is the case, can the Foreign Secretary tell us how German courts can possibly deal with such a charge and, if they cannot, will he tell us on what charge they ought to be brought before the German courts?

The point is that the German Chancellor and the German authorities, having seen the evidence of conspiracy, which is what was originally raised, now wish themselves to proceed against these men. I cannot imagine that there could be a more satisfactory solution, in view of the nature of this information, than that the German authorities themselves should take this step.

Is it not the fact that these men have been held for a number of weeks incommunicado, denied correspondence with their lawyers, and cross-examined? Has it not up to now been considered wholly contrary to every principle of British justice that criminal charges should be based upon cross-examination conducted after arrest, without a charge being made?

These steps were taken under the powers which the occupying Powers have, and while still under investigation it would have been prejudicial to that investigation if persons who might have been associated with their activities had been allowed unrestricted access to them. That is why the High Commissioner took the action he did, with my full authority.

Surely that is not the point here. It may have been wholly necessary to do this in order to protect our Forces, but is it not utterly contrary to our ideas of justice that we should permit that investigation to be the basis of criminal charges brought subsequently?

Mr. Scott Henderson was at no time prevented from having access to those charged. Others were prevented from having access, and if the hon. and learned Gentleman will study the supplementary answer I have just given he will perhaps understand why.

I want to understand correctly what the Foreign Minister has said. Do we rightly understand that the investigation has shown that these men were not conspiring against the occupying Forces but were conspiring against the democratic régime in Germany?