asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what progress has been made towards a system for dealing with minor motoring offences which will eliminate the present waste of police time.

I have under consideration the report of a working party which was set up to consider and report on measures which might be taken to save the time of witnesses at the summary trial of minor offences. Some of the proposals considered by the working party would involve legislation and will require further consideration, but they have also put forward a number of other suggestions with a view to dispensing with the attendance of unnecessary witnesses and to saving the time of those witnesses whose attendance is essential.

In view of the interest in this matter, and particularly as one can see, every day, dozens of Metropolitan police officers engaged on trivial tasks, will my right hon. and learned Friend publish the report?

I will consider that point, but I cannot give any promise about it.

Has the Home Secretary taken into account the observations of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Constabulary who, in their last report, also drew attention to the wastage of manpower involved in using the police for this kind of offence?

Certainly.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend get into touch with the Secretary of State for Scotland in this matter?

I will consider that.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will furnish an estimate of the number of man-hours occupied by police officers in the Metropolitan police district during the month of November at magistrates' courts for the purpose of giving evidence in cases of alleged obstruction.

Approximately 2,500.

Having regard to the fact that these prosecutions have no effect at all on obstruction, and as the Commissioner of Police is always moaning about being short of manpower, would it not be much better if these policemen were doing ordinary beat duty?

But obstruction has to be considered. As I estimate it—I should like my arithmetic checked—the total number of man-hours is about 4 million, which makes this 0·125 per cent. or 1/800. Obstruction has to be borne in mind for the general convenience of the public.

As the right hon. and learned Gentleman promised me a considerable time ago, in reply to another question, that he would look into this general matter of the time spent by police officers in courts dealing with minor offences, can he tell me the results?

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was in when I answered Question No. 1, but I did say that the working party had reported and that some of the recommendations that did not require legislation were to be the matter of a circular within the early future. I am not trying to underestimate the problem of the proper use of police manpower. That is one that is constantly in my mind. All I am saying is the obvious point, I think, that I have to consider obstruction and convenience of the public.

How will the right hon. and learned Gentleman stop obstruction in London until there are adequate parking spaces, including underground car parks? Are not these fines becoming rents for parking in the street?

I agree that that has to be considered, and it is being considered.

Is there any reason why police reports in this sort of case should not be acceptable as evidence without the attendance of the police constable—[Hon. Members: "Oh."]—unless the defendant requests his presence?

I do not think it would be generally acceptable to go as far as the hon. and learned Gentleman has said. I should like him to elaborate it at a convenient time. What I am trying to do is to bring into being procedure for finding out, in advance, the cases where the defendant does not want to attend, and, therefore, does not want to dispute the matter, or where he will indicate he will plead guilty, so that the attendance of, at any rate, one or two witnesses can be dispensed with.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that there are in London far too many "no obstruction" and "no parking" signs which the motorist believes are badly sited, so that he ignores them?

I will bear that in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what guidance he has given to Metropolitan police officers regarding the taking of statements from persons in cases of murder and other serious crimes.

The General Orders of the Metropolitan police, and the instructions given in the Metropolitan police training schools, are directed towards ensuring that there shall be strict compliance with the provisions of the Judges' Rules relating to the questioning by police officers of persons suspected or in custody.

Does the guidance include reference to the recommendations of the Royal Commission of 1929, and does the right hon. and learned Gentleman appreciate that this is a matter of importance not only to the accused but also in order to obviate any allegations against the police?

I do appreciate that, and if the hon. Member is at all interested he may care to read what I said myself when I last had an opportunity of discussing the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consider the use of the tape-recording machine in the taking by Metropolitan Police officers of statements from persons in custody.

I have considered this suggestion, but can find no sufficient ground to warrant its adoption. Among other practical objections is the difficulty of proving that a voice heard on a recording machine was the voice of the person in custody. Moreover, a recorded voice would be open to the same objection as that sometimes taken to written statements, namely, that it had been obtained under duress or by threats or inducements applied beforehand.

While fully appreciating what the right hon. Gentleman has said, may I ask whether he realises that in some police quarters the suggestion is approved, and will he keep it under review to see whether it would be worth while to carry out experiments?

I will certainly keep it under review, and if the hon. Member has any suggestion for obviating the practical difficulties I will willingly consider it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will state the number of words in the statement made by Christie at the Notting Hill police station in December, 1949; and the time taken for recording it.

Christie made three statements at Notting Hill police station, on 1st, 5th and 8th December, 1949. They contained 991, 821 and 375 words respectively. No record is kept of the time spent in taking statements made by potential witnesses, as Christie was at the time in question.

Are there any valid reasons why this statement should not be made available to help those who are properly interested in this case?

That is a different question, which I should like to consider.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the number of youth gangs given to violence known to the police in the Metropolitan area; and what action is being taken to break these up.

The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis is not aware of any organised gangs given to violence, but he tells me that during the nine months ended 30th September last, 77 persons under 21 years of age, and operating in groups of three or more, were arrested in the Metropolitan police district for indictable offences involving violence against the person. The Commissioner is taking special precautions to deal with potential trouble spots and to check hooliganism, but it would not be in the public interest to disclose details of the measures taken.

Does not this statement of the Commissioner seem to conflict with the evidence given in a recent trial which gained publicity? Is it not desirable that, if these gangs do exist, the public should be made aware of them and that attention should be directed towards getting rid of them?

I do not think it would be in the public interest to disclose in advance the steps which are being taken. As to the case, I think I am right in saying that it is still sub judice, so I shall not comment on it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what officers of Scotland Yard have been sent to the United States of America; and for what purpose.

Apart from officers on protection duties, no member of the Metropolitan police force has visited the United States of America on official business in the last two years other than the officer referred to in my reply on 12th November to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Hay).

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there is tremendous concern, particularly in Scotland, that there may be an intention to introduce into this country—indeed, that there have already been introduced—American police methods, which are repugnant here? Will he give an assurance that such American police methods will not be introduced into this country?

I answered that point last week, and I made clear that the object of the visit was to study and get advice on problems of prostitution and importuning by male persons in London. I think it is very important that I should get the experience of other countries on those matters. On the other matter raised by the hon. Gentleman, I myself am quite content with and, indeed, proud of, British police methods.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the variations in strength of the police forces in the cities and boroughs of England and Wales during 1953 and in the strength of the Metropolitan police force during the same period; and say what steps are to be taken to bring these forces up to establishment.

Between 1st January and 31st October, 1953, the male strength of the city and borough forces in England and Wales fell by 14 and of the Metropolitan police force by 144. Thirty-five city and borough forces increased in strength, six were unchanged and 33 showed losses. Although the rate of recruiting is still high by pre-war standards, and fairly good progress had been made up to the beginning of this year, the loss in strength since then gives cause for anxiety.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider instituting an inquiry into the conditions of service, particularly as they affect the domestic arrangements of the police, for undoubtedly some of the wastage is caused by the fact that policemen's wives do not like their husbands being on this particular job?

I agree that that is a most important aspect. It is constantly in my mind, but I shall direct special attention to it.

In the case of counties where there has been a fall in the number of police, is that in any way associated with a shortage of housing?

I do not think that is a very important matter in relation to these falls, although, of course, housing is tremendously important. At the moment, speaking from memory, I believe the number of police houses alone is being increased at the rate of 200 a month. I think we are beginning to see our way through the problem.

Is the Home Secretary aware that the great problem here is created by lack of promotion prospects? Will he bear in mind that the Oaksey Committee says that to ensure that he will get the higher rate of pension, a policeman has to stay on at his job for something like three years beyond the normal time? Is he aware that this is clogging the whole machine? Where there is a sergeant who should retire, and who will not retire because he wants the higher pension rate, the vacancy is not filled. Something will have to be done about it.

That point has been very much in the mind of both the right hon. Gentleman who preceded me in this office and myself. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we have it in mind and will continue to consider it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of complaints that drivers of road haulage vehicles are being harassed by the Metropolitan police when they find overnight parking spaces; and what instructions have been issued by the Commissioner of Police.

I have received only one such complaint. The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis informs me that he has received none, but that he has received complaints from householders and others about the obstruction and noise caused by the parking of lorries overnight. The Commissioner of Police has issued no instructions, but the police have taken action where it has been necessary to prevent serious obstruction.

While we all accept the fact that that action must be taken, would the Home Secretary have a look at the situation of the drivers, some of whom feel that they are being chased in this matter, even when they have found an overnight parking place which seems to be suitable? Could he arrange to provide an adequate supply of free parking places?

This is a difficult problem. There is also the fact that there have been complaints about a number of larcenies of and from lorries. I will bear both points in mind and will convey what the hon. Gentleman has said to the Commissioner.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what arrangements he will make for the re-housing of police officers who have to vacate their official residence on retirement from the force.

A police officer has no title to continue to occupy after his retirement accommodation provided by the police authority. The responsibility for obtaining other accommodation is primarily that of the officer himself and, in so far as he has difficulty in finding a suitable house, his case would fall to be considered by the appropriate housing authority.

Is the Home Secretary aware of the difficulty experienced by police officers who are on the verge of retirement after many years of service? Is he aware that when they apply to the local housing authorities for a council house, because at that time they are living in very good accommodation provided by the local police authorities, they are put very low on the housing list and, to the very moment of their leaving the force, are in doubt about getting proper housing accommodation?

That is an important point. Perhaps the hon. Member will recall that paragraph 300 of the Oaksey Committee Report deals with it and urges what I think is the gist of the matter—that men about to retire should have their claims considered in good time. A circular has been sent to local authorities on that point, and I will have the position re-examined in view of what the hon. Member has said.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make arrangements to enable local authorities in the Metropolitan police area to examine the annual estimates of the Metropolitan police before such estimates are submitted to the House of Commons.

No, Sir. It would not be proper for me to make the estimates available to local authorities before they are available to the House. It is, however, the practice for the Receiver to discuss the estimates with representatives of the Metropolitan boroughs and the outer London authorities after they have been published, and I have recently given instructions that the precept in the Metropolitan police district is in the ordinary course to be based on the Parliamentary estimates.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the estimates are sent out to local authorities without their having any opportunity whatsoever of expressing any view on the subject? Is he aware that the Metropolitan borough of Lambeth, for example, is called upon to pay £225,000 to the Metropolitan police without having any opportunity at all of expressing any view as to whether the sum is properly required or not?

I think that what I have said as to the discussions which the Receiver has after the estimates have been published goes some way to meet that point, and it is as a result of recent discussions that it has been agreed that the precept should be based on the Parliamentary estimate.

In view of the fact that this is a sad case of taxation without representation will the right hon. and learned Gentleman at least consider the matter, because it is really a serious bone of contention in London? Cannot arrangements be made whereby the authorities may see the estimates before they are printed and published, so that they may have an opportunity of expressing views upon them?

I do not think that that would be in accordance with my duty to this House as Home Secretary and police authority, but if there are any further suggestions that can be made I shall be prepared to consider them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he anticipates being able to introduce legislation to give more control over the granting of licences for the operation of clubs.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on 26th November to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Norfolk, Central (Brigadier Medlicott).

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that these clubs do considerable harm to the proper functioning of the ordinary public-house?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement upon the case of Civil Defence volunteer, Mr. A. P. Avenell, to which his attention has been drawn.

I understand that Mr. Avenell, who was an auxiliary fireman, is a co-defendant with the London County Council in proceedings for damages started by another auxiliary fireman, who was accidentally injured at drill. The London County Council is negotiating with the injured man's solicitors for an amicable settlement, and any settlement completed will be on the basis that the injured man's claim against Mr. Avenell will be withdrawn and the proceedings against him terminated.

While thanking the Home Secretary for that information, may I ask whether he is aware that this accident happened more than two years ago and that for some months Mr. Avenell has been in jeopardy of a High Court action and possible bankruptcy? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman try to get the law altered in respect of this matter?

I did go rather further than is usual in discussing a case that is not yet completed, but if I might answer the hon. Gentleman generally I can tell him that I have this matter under consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the rules laid down by him in regard to the personal liability of part-time Civil Defence volunteers for the consequences arising from accidents in which they are involved while on duty.

The personal liability of part-time Civil Defence volunteers for the consequences of their actions on duty is a matter of law in which I have no authority to lay down rules. But I have no reason to doubt that Civil Defence authorities would follow well-established practice and in all proper cases stand behind the volunteer concerned in civil proceedings arising out of an accident occurring in the performance of his duty.

Is the Home Secretary aware that as the law now stands, a Civil Defence volunteer who is involved in an accident while on duty is personally liable for damages? Does he not consider that the law in this respect is totally unsatisfactory, and will he get it altered?

The law is a general law. It places personal liability on every tortfeasor even if he is acting in the course of his duty. I think the answer is that the practice in this country, which has worked very well, is that the Government, local authorities and bodies of that kind do stand behind the man in every proper case.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the fact that there were 5,723 vivisection experiments conducted on dogs under the Cruelty to Animals Act, 1874, without any an aesthetics last year, compared with 1,495 previously; what is the reason for this increase; and where they were carried out.

I must apologise for a mistake in the Annual Return of Experiments on Living Animals which I presented to the House.

While I am grateful for that correction, in view of the growing public disquiet on this matter, would the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider making a statement on this whole subject, as there has been no statement or report issued to the House since this Act was passed 80 years ago, and especially as there have been 30 million experiments on animals, on the results of which no information has been made available to this House or the public? Would the Home Secretary consider making a general statement on the whole matter, as these experiments are now running at the rate of a million a year?

The arrangement of the business of the House is not for me to decide, but I think it ought to be made clear that the procedures involved are, in the vast majority of cases, comparatively simple; that is, simple inoculations in the course of research into the causation and treatment of canine virus diseases such as hard-pad and distemper, and the effects of various insecticides and anti-parasitic preparations. I should not like the House to think that anything except a small minority of the cases are of a serious kind.

Am I not right in assuming that the Home Secretary has full powers of inspection in all cases in connection with these experiments?

I have very full powers.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now institute inquiries to ascertain where those convicted of drunkenness and offences connected with it have obtained their liquor.

I regret that it would not be practicable to obtain this information.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend re-examine this matter, because it is essential, if these offences are to decrease materially, to find the sources of supply? [An HON. MEMBER: "Stop brewing."] Would not the information also relieve from odium any of those sources of supply which are conducted in a proper manner?

As I have said, it is a matter of practicability. I am ready to consider any suggestion.

Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider it to be part of his duty, when an offence is proved to have been caused by drunkenness, to attempt to find out the persons responsible for providing the means of the drunkenness, and, where the responsibility can be discovered, to make such persons also culprits in the courts?

That suggestion opens up an infinite variety of questions which I do not think fall within the scope of this Question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the Return of Offences relating to Motor Vehicles, Table IIa, includes Monmouthshire, with Newport, in England, whereas the report for mechanically-propelled vehicles, Report 160A, includes Monmouthshire and Newport in Wales; and if he will consult with other Departments to secure consistency in this matter of Government Reports.

Yes, Sir.

To avoid any ambiguity on this subject, would the right hon. and learned Gentleman, particularly in view of his wide experience as a lawyer, submit to the House evidence which will indicate whether Monmouthshire is in England or in Wales, in neither or in both?

I have too great a cowardly regard for my own safety.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the policy of Her Majesty's Government with regard to granting visas to students from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and other Iron Curtain countries wishing to visit this country for scientific or academic purposes.

Students from those countries are not as such excluded from the scope of the general policy under which, subject to certain conditions, foreign students are freely admitted for recognised courses of study. No application from an Iron Curtain country for a visa for such a purpose in recent years can be traced, but if any such application were received it would be considered on its merits.

May we take it that in the interests of encouraging good relations between these two countries it will be made widely known that applications for visas for these purposes will be sympathetically entertained?

Certainly. That is the purpose of my answer. They will be considered in exactly the same way as applications from students from other countries. As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is always the personal check which has to be made.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman endeavour to get this action made reciprocal?

Yes, Sir.

As further evidence of the correctness of the Secretary of State's policy, may I ask him whether he is aware that the recent visit of the cultural delegations from the Soviet Union has had a very fine effect in this country? They created a great impression when they appeared on television and they themselves were very pleased with the reception given to them by the British people.

I will bear that in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to a report on the law relating to sexual offences drawn up by a joint committee of the Magistrates' Association and the British Medical Association in 1949, of which a copy is in his possession; and what action he has decided to take in the matter.

I am familiar with this report, but, as I have already informed the House, I am not at present in a position to make any statement on the questions with which it deals.

In view of the fact that this report, published in 1949, foretold the tremendous increase in this class of offence, is it not time that a very strong effort was made to tackle the whole problem, because the vast increase in the number of offences shows that the law, particularly where young children are concerned, is failing to achieve any useful purpose whatsoever?

I told the House, at rather great length, a week ago that I have the matter under very careful consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has yet considered a resolution from the Church of England Moral Welfare Council requesting him to set up an inquiry into the whole subject of homosexuality; and what reply he has made.

I have received and acknowledged this resolution. I am not at present in a position to send a considered reply to the Church of England Moral Welfare Council, but I shall take their views into account in examining the general question of the law relating to sexual offences and the treatment of sexual offenders.

In view of his rather disappointing replies last week, is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that no one has suggested any lessening in the protection of children and young persons? What concerns this body and so many other people is the unsatisfactory state of the law relating to homosexuality among male adults. Has his attention been drawn to the views of a learned judge who, at Kingston, as reported in "The Times" on Monday, said that prison is no solution for these offences and frequently aggravates the causes of the trouble?

I tried to deal with this matter a week ago, and I do not want to cover the same ground again. I know that the Council has said that the duty of the State to protect young people is self-evident, but one of the matters which it wants to consider is the validity of the right given to the State to take cognisance of immoral private actions between adult male homosexuals. That, to my mind, cannot be looked at in isolation from the effect on young people. That is one of the aspects of the subject to which I attach great importance. I am considering the matter. I have not a shut mind. I know that the Council is approaching the matter with a great desire to do good and I shall be quite prepared to consider the matter further.

In the meantime, will my right hon. and learned Friend consider establishing a hospital for these unhappy people, where they car receive suitable discipline and treatment until the legal review which he is undertaking?

I must repeat that I do not accept for a moment that prisons are not alive to this problem and doing their utmost to treat these people according to the most up-to-date views and knowledge. A week ago I gave my reasons for thinking that prison treatment is essential in a large number of cases.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the number of persons found guilty of indictable offences since the Criminal Justice Act, 1948, came into operation, giving the total figures for male and female persons; and how the number now compares with that for 1938.

I much regret that the figures which I furnished in reply to a similar Question by my hon. Friend on 26th November were those for males only, and did not include the totals for female persons. I will, with permission, circulate in the Official Report a table showing the total number of persons, and the numbers of males and females respectively, found guilty of indictable offences in England and Wales in 1938 and in the years 1945 to 1952 inclusive.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has considered the recent case, details of which have been supplied to him, in which a coroner's jury returned a verdict that a baby's death was caused by mercury poisoning, following an innocent over dosage of teething powders; and if he will take steps to ensure that such powders are sold to the public only in correct doses.

According to a report in this morning's Press the company in question has decided that no further powders containing calomel should be put on the market, and that a powder free from mercury should be produced instead. I am having inquiries made.

While welcoming the action of Messrs. Steedman and Co. in voluntarily withdrawing the calomel teething powder, may I ask the Home Secretary whether it is not of serious importance that two young babies have died very recently from mercury poisoning as a result of heavy doses of these powders without any warning being given to those who purchased them that such overdoses should not be given? In view of the evidence, would it not be a good action by the Home Secretary now to prohibit the use of these substances?

I have told the hon. Member that I am having inquiries made. I am most grateful to him for the information he has given on the matter, but the inquiries are not yet complete.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what action he is taking on the resolution adopted by the County of London justices on 29th October last, of which he has a copy, requesting increased powers for lay justices in the County of London.

I am carefully considering the resolution of the County of London justices, and shall send them a considered reply as soon as possible.

As the County of London justices have for some time said that the duties entrusted to them are of a very lenient character compared with the duties of justices outside the London area, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman see that the best possible use is made of their services in the future?

Yes, but I would remind the House that among recent measures that have been taken to reduce the congestion in the Metropolitan courts and use the justices in question are the setting up of a special domestic proceedings court and the making of arrangements for justices to sit in a spare room at Bow Street.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the number of foreign persons resident in Scotland whose application for British nationality has been granted during the last three years.

From 1st January, 1951, to 30th November, 1953, 919 certificates of naturalisation were granted to persons then resident in Scotland.

Has the figure been fairly constant in post-war years, or is it very much on the increase?

The figures were 326, 273 and 320, for 11 months. There does not seem to be much variation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is now in a position to make a statement on the result of the discussions on the enforcement of affiliation orders made against United States Service men; and what action he is taking.

I am not at present in a position to add anything to the reply given on 7th December by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood).

Can the Home Secretary give us some information as to the course of the negotiations, and when he expects to give the House a full statement?

Discussions are taking place, as my hon. Friend said, and I hope to be able to announce the outcome before the Act is brought into force.

Will the Home Secretary bear in mind that the question of enforcement arises in other cases, such as actions for damages following assault? Is he taking that category of cases into consideration?

I think that the cases which the hon. Member has in mind are covered by the Visiting Forces Act, in one way or the other, but questions of affiliation orders are outside the Visiting Forces Act.

The Home Secretary knows of a particular case—of which I sent him details—which is not covered by the Visiting Forces Act, but is simply a question of enforcing a judgment given in a court of law. This question applies to cases other than affiliation orders.

I am looking into that point.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the proportion of administrative staff to the total staff of the fire services.

I regret that it is not possible to isolate the numbers of local authority employees throughout the country engaged on administrative work in connection with the fire services. In London, however, there are 2,120 operational firemen and 302 civilian staff.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend take note of the public feeling that there is a considerable number of people on the administrative staff who are there only because there is not enough for them to do in the ordinary daily duties of the fire service, and that, therefore, the list is overweighted?

I have noted what my hon. and gallant Friend has said, but I should remind him that the fire services have been denationalised, and by a Labour Government, and, therefore, that it is a matter for the local authorities.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that there is a strong feeling among many of the smaller local authorities that the ratepayers are paying a large sum towards a service which is unduly top heavy with enormous numbers of staff officers, staff cars, drivers, and a great deal of saluting and general military detail which is quite inappropriate?

That sort of attack is very easy to make and very difficult to substantiate. The fire service is of tremendous importance. The losses that are caused by fire are enormous, and, in addition, the Auxiliary Fire Service is one of the most important items in Civil Defence. I should not like anything to go out from this House either to discourage the excellent work of the fire service as a whole or to discourage recruiting for the Auxiliary Fire Service, which is most important to Civil Defence.

Is the Home Secretary aware that some of his hon. Friends appear to be advocating the diminution of the municipal fire services in order to provide greater opportunities for private enterprise?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the total of hours spent in attendance at fires by the fire services in the years 1950 to 1952.

Between 1950 and 1952 members of local authority fire brigades attended 209,933 fires. The time of attendance varied from a few minutes to many hours, but I regret that information about the total number of hours spent in attendance at fires is not included in the available statistics.

Could we be told whether this refers to England and Wales? It is a little difficult for Scottish Members to ask questions without knowing whether this Question relates to Scotland or to England and Wales.

I have assumed, since I am the unworthy recipient of the Question, that it is England and Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the proportion of motor fuel used by the fire services in attending fires in 1951 and 1952 to the total motor fuel consumption of the service; and what was the total gallonage used in those years.

I regret that the information is not available, since no central record is kept of the fuel consumed by the local authorities' fire brigades.

Can my right hon. and learned Friend say whether or not the amount of petrol used is more than it used to be for purposes other than those for dealing with fires?

As I explained to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Renfrew, East (Sir G. Lloyd), the service is now denationalised and there is no central record, so I cannot help my hon. and gallant Friend.

Is the Home Secretary aware that hon. Members on this side are whole-heartedly behind him in rejecting the hostile Questions which have been directed against gallant firemen? Will he resist pressure from his hon. Friends to reintroduce horse-drawn fire vehicles?

On a point of order. The right hon. Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Bottomley) referred to my Question as being a hostile one—

I said "hostile Questions."

The right hon. Member referred to my Question being a hostile Question. May I ask for that to be withdrawn? All I asked for were facts.

As I heard the right hon. Gentleman, he spoke of hostile questions in general. That does not imply anything which needs to be withdrawn.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many motor cars are provided for the use of officer grades for supervisory duties in the fire services as compared with the number provided at 1st April, 1948.

I regret that the information is not available.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will publish a list of the officer grades in the fire services now and at 1st April, 1948, and a further list showing the proportion of officers to men in each of the years 1949 to 1952.

Since the answer is long and contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the Official Report.

In reply to a supplementary question which I asked earlier, my right hon. and learned Friend implied that I was attacking the whole fire brigade. Is he aware that we appreciate the work of the fire brigades, but feel that they are overstaffed?

My hon. Friend has made that clear.

Have not all these Questions been designed to show that the fire service is costing too much? Is it not a fact that we lose many millions of pounds per annum from fires, and that the expenditure is very low in relation to the return?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what allowances, in addition to pay, can be claimed by members of the fire services: in what circumstances; and whether there has been any increase in the number of these allowances since the Fire Services Act came into force.

Members of the fire services are entitled to claim allowances for travelling, subsistence, lodging and removal expenses when these are incurred in the course of duty. Rent allowances, uniform allowances and allowances in respect of additional responsibilities or special duties are also payable in certain cases. The conditions under which these allowances are payable are laid down in the Fire Services (Ranks and Conditions of Service) Regulations. There has been a small increase in the number of allowances since the Act came into force.

In view of the Questions about the fire services which have been asked by hon. Members opposite, may I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman why his hon. Friends do not put out their own fires and be done with it?

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that for old people the most important items of essential expenditure are food, fuel and light; and if he will therefore recommend a change in the weighting of items in the Interim Index of Retail Prices so that food, fuel and light occupy the first three places when the cost of living for old age pensioners is considered.

I am aware that different types of household have different expenditure patterns. Decisions about weighting the index will not be taken until the results of the inquiry are available.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the real problem for the old people is this immediate winter? Is he also aware that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Insurance stated that old people had need of these three particular things? Can he not arrange for the matter to be urgently considered before the winter months are over?

As the hon. Lady will discover, as much information as possible is given, not only about these items—food is already 40 per cent. of the total of the index—but about the other items that make it up, in the monthly Ministry of Labour Gazette. Any further information that we can make available will be given, but to alter the weighting of the index in the meantime would be contrary to the unanimous advice of the committee which deals with the matter.

Is it not a fact that the items in question here are weighted only to the extent of about 46 per cent. in the Interim Index of Retail Prices? Is the Minister prepared to say that no old age pensioner spends more than half his income on both fuel and light?

I should not be prepared to say that. I have not checked the percentages, but I will take them from the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a detailed breakdown of the 11 per cent. increase which has taken place in the price of services since October, 1951, as shown in table 147 of the Monthly Digest of Statistics.

For the four main sections covered by the Services group of the retail prices index, the percentage increases in charges since October, 1951, were approximately as follow: Travelling expenses, 20; postal charges, 6; charges for entertainment, 10; other services, 5.

Is it not a fact that this category is weighted at approximately 9 per cent. in the retail prices index? Taking the increase in the price of services with the 14 per cent. increase in food prices since October, 1951, and 9½ per cent. increase in rent and rates since October, 1951, would the Minister not agree that these particular things hit hardest the poorer sections of the community, and resign in protest against this fundamental injustice?