asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why he continues in his refusal to implement the recommendations of the Cairncross Report.

:I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. and learned Member's Question on 27th October.

:Is the hon. Gentleman lodging an objection to my Question? Does he realise that the leading economists, sociologists and newspapers in Scotland praised the Cairncross Report? Does he not deem it worth another glance in order to do something constructive for Scotland?

We are always examining this question. I invite the hon. and learned Gentleman to consider the reply of my right hon. Friend, who said that the present policy which we are pursuing is sufficiently flexible to deal appropriately with the many varying situations which arise. That is true.

Is the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend aware that the reasons for the rejection of the Cairncross Report have given rise to considerable apprehension in Scotland? The Secretary of State suggested in his rejection that the policy suggested by the Cairncross Committee of developing industry in other parts of the country would automatically exclude the Development Area policy? Most people in Scotland see nothing mutually exclusive about the two proposals.

It is a very difficult question. We have examined it with the greatest care, and our view at the moment is as stated.

Does not my hon. Friend think that the trends indicated by the latest figures of development give grounds for active consideration?

I assure my hon. Friend that our mind is not closed to any development, but we are not yet persuaded that this change would be wise.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many applications for grants under the White Fish and Herring Industries Act, 1953, have been refused by him on the ground that the applicants were unable to comply with paragraphs 5, 6 and 7, respectively, of the schemes made by him under that Act last July in so far as they relate to Scotland.

The granting or refusal of applications rests with the Herring Industry Board and White Fish Authority and not with my right hon. Friend. I am informed that the Board have rejected applications from Scottish fishermen for four boats and one engine on the grounds referred to by the hon. and learned Member. The Authority have rejected one application for an engine on these grounds.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that these paragraphs press hardly on poor applicants? Will he consider amending the regulations in order to give poor applicants a better show?

It would be very difficult quickly to amend the regulations. I assure the hon. and learned Member that the greatest sympathy is shown to these people, but the authorities must be sure that the man to whom they lend money is (a) a good fisherman and (b) able financially to carry the burden.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland is he is aware of the threat of loss and damage to the fishing and agricultural industries in the North of Scotland caused by the existing high freight charges and by the proposed increase in freight charges for the pro ducts of these industries; and what steps he proposes to protect these industries from such loss and damage

I would refer the hon. and learned Member to the reply given to the hon. Lady, the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) on 26th January.

Does the Minister not realise that an application is imminent to increase the freight charges, although existing freight rates already press very heavily on the North-East of Scotland, and that the discrimination is very unfair? Will he take steps to oppose the application?

As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, the Minister of Transport is at present considering a report of the Transport Tribunal on the British Transport Commission's proposal, and the Secretary of State for Scotland is in constant touch with the Minister of Transport.

What progress is being made in the conversations between the fishing industry and the British Transport Commission on the freight charges?

I am sorry that I cannot tell my hon. Friend that. The discussions are going on. They are somewhat detailed, but we do not yet know what is happening.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps are taken to ensure that farmers do not employ in potato gathering children under 13 years of age, especially when those schools, normally supplying the labour, are having their short mid-term autumn holiday.

It is one of the normal duties of the police to prevent contravention of the law relating to the employment of children. I have no information which would suggest that they are not alert to this duty when schools are closed for mid-term holidays.

Has no case at all been brought to the notice of the Minister that this practice is in existence in Scotland, particularly at half-term holidays, when the older children are away from school? What additional steps and supervision is the Minister contemplating to obviate this reprehensible practice?

In addition to what I said just now about the duties of the police, the Director of Education for Fife tells us that one of the duties of his school attendance officers is to report to the police any infringement of the law. The hon. Gentleman can feel that this is reasonably well covered.

Would not the Minister agree that the only way to prevent these things is to abolish altogether child labour in the potato fields? Is he aware that there are well-known farmers who engage in most efficient potato production without the use of child labour?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of children who worked at potato harvesting in 1953 from junior secondary, senior secondary and fee-paying schools, from Glasgow and Lanarkshire, respectively.

1,799 Glasgow children went from junior secondary schools, 422 from senior secondary schools and none from fee-paying schools. 1,953 Lanarkshire children went from junior secondary schools, and 272 from senior secondary schools. No children attending Lanarkshire fee-paying schools are of the age to work at the potato harvest.

As this Bill comes up annually, will the Minister take note of those figures? He will discover that the great majority of the children came from the poorer districts of Glasgow and Lanarkshire, who are the children who should have the opportunity of a better education? If children are needed for harvesting, will he go to the fee paying schools, where the children are much healthier and more capable of doing the job than are the poor children of 13 years of age in working-class districts?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many children from Fife attend the hearing-aid clinic at Edinburgh; and what provision is made for the parents to recover the expense incurred by such visits

Thirty-two children of school age from Fife have attended the hearing aid clinic in Edinburgh since January, 1949. The parent or guardian of a child may apply to the National Assistance Board for assistance in paying fares to and from the clinic where any question of hardship arises; application forms are available at the clinic.

Is the Minister aware that many parents, although they suffer quite considerable hardship in going to and from Edinburgh, are very loath to apply to the National Assistance Board? Would he not agree that this is a very expensive and inconvenient method of catering for the needs of deaf children, and would he not consider setting up a small clinic north of the Forth, in view of the very inadequate transport?

No, Sir, not in the meantime. A certain amount of skill is involved in testing and fitting the hearing aids; and the journey should not be necessary except on very few occasions. I do not think people should be bashful about applying to the National Assistance Board.

When the right hon. and gallant Gentleman says "Not in the meantime," what time does he mean?

The hon. Gentleman will have to wait and see.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what specific instructions have been given to the police concerning their investigations into the political convictions of any individual; on what date the most recent instructions were given on this matter; and how often such instructions have been modified in the last two years.

The police do not act on my right hon. Friend's instructions. In any case, it is not their function to investigate the political convictions of individuals.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this Question was not raised out of any kind of hostility to the police, who are doing a very excellent job, but would he not agree that some procedure ought to be laid down on what the police should not do in their attempts to get information which they may legitimately require? Would he not urge on his right hon. Friend the need to stress the importance of not embarrassing individuals by this questioning?

As I said to the hon. Gentleman a fortnight ago, if he has any evidence of any case at all to substantiate the complaint he is making, we shall be glad to look at it.

Will the hon. Gentleman advise his right hon. Friend that in this case no agents provocateurs are appointed for the purpose of inciting people to commit crimes and afterwards decorate them for the foul villainy done, as in a recent case?

The hon. Gentleman has no right whatever to make that charge. It is not true.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he proposes to take on the representations which he has received from the town council of Coatbridge in respect of the dangers of the Monkland Canal

When conclusions have been reached on a similar problem concerning the Monkland Canal in Glasgow, about which my right hon. Friend replied on 2nd February to a Question addressed to him by the hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. Hannan), my right hon. Friend will consider whether there is any action that can usefully be taken to deal with the Coatbridge position.

This is an astonishing reply. Coatbridge made representations years before Glasgow, and its corporation has been waiting for nine years for satisfaction in regard to the canal, which is not only a danger to life but is a breeding ground for mosquitoes and is filling the houses around with rats. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the patience of Coatbridge and of its M.P. is exhausted?

I am sorry about that, but I think the hon. Lady would agree that the problems which arise are not dissimilar and that a solution in one case might point to the solution of the other. We are pressing on with Glasgow.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that on the previous occasions Coatbridge got lost in the same kind of reply and that Coatbridge wants its own definite conclusions reached in case, as in former years, Lanarkshire and Glasgow may disagree?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what reply he has sent to the letter he has received from the Scottish National Congress regarding agents provocateurs in Scotland

My right hon. Friend has received a letter in similar terms to the circular letter to which he referred in reply to a Question asked on 2nd February by the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes). The letter has been acknowledged.

That letter was sent more than a month ago. This is a very important matter concerning a very important body in Scotland. Because of the statement that was made about that letter, the same statement was made by counsel in the High Court in Edinburgh about agents provocateurs. I ask the Joint Under-Secretary whether we are not entitled to some kind of reply. The Minister has said today that no such position exists with the police in Scotland. He should answer the question quite definitely.

The letter of 28th January to which I think the hon. Gentleman refers was sent to my right hon. Friend. There was no signature; merely a rubber stamp for a signature. It contained a copy of a resolution. The answer given was that the terms of the resolution had be noted. I do not know what more my right hon. Friend could have done.

If this species exists in Scotland, can my hon. Friend tell us the Scottish equivalent of "agents provocateurs"?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will instruct the Inter-Departmental Committee on Slaughterhouses (Scotland) before submitting their final report, to base their consideration of the siting of slaughter houses on the assumption that slaughtering will be done in the producing areas and that meat will be sent to consuming areas in carcase form

No, Sir. As one of the terms of reference of the Committee is to advise my right hon. Friend on the general principles of siting slaughterhouses, he can hardly instruct them on the matter.

Is not my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that the farmers of Scotland may well produce a meat marketing scheme which might involve local slaughtering, in which case they would want the slaughtering facilities to be made available entirely by the local authorities? If the Committee appointed by my right hon. Friend is only going to report on the slaughtering facilities where ever they may be, and not where they are wanted, it will be a most unsatisfactory report.

The organisations have submitted evidence to the Committee and have made representations on the general siting of the slaughterhouses, some being in favour of the slaughterhouses being sited in the producing areas, and others in favour of their being located in the consuming areas, but the Committee have not yet come to a conclusion on these matters.

Can the Minister assure the House that all these slaughterhouses will be equipped with the most modern slaughtering bays?

I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would take that as accepted.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many convictions for salmon poaching have been registered under the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Protection) (Scotland) Act, 1951, and what amount of money has been levied in fines.

From 10th May, 1951, when the Act was passed, to 31st December last, there were 188 convictions of poaching and 307 convictions of other offences under it. Fines totalling £1,128 were imposed in 167 poaching cases, and fines totalling £1,947 in 254 other cases. Some cases in each class were disposed of otherwise.

Is the Minister aware of the ugly feeling engendered on Tweed-side as a result of the savage sentences imposed? Is he further aware that I have here evidence from a man who, found in possession of a cleek and stick on the public highway, was fined £8 as a first offence; also that one of my constituents says that he was convicted at the Selkirk Sheriff Court on the evidence of a water bailiff, who contended that he saw him—at a distance of 500 yards, on a dark night and round a bend in the river—hiding salmon in a marsh which only existed in the imagination of the water bailiff? Will the Minister advise the Lord Advocate that it is now time to make an inquiry into the working of this Act in Scotland? Is he further aware that on 26th March next an attempt will be made in this House to fasten a replica of this Act on the English and Welsh anglers?

Answer.

The Question was so long that there was no time for an answer.

Do I take it from your remark, Mr. Speaker, that if a supplementary question is too long, it debars the Minister on the Government Front Bench from replying?

Yes, the answer would involve an equally long speech.

Due to the treatment that this Question has received, I intend to raise the matter again at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to increase the number of hygienic insulated vans for the transport of meat in Scotland

Could the Minister say whether his Department has made any representations on this subject to the licensing tribunal?

That is a matter for the Minister of Transport. Perhaps the hon. Member would put down a Question on the Order Paper.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to scrutinise, and to publish as necessary the results of his scrutiny, the respective sums authorised by Parliament for each and every constructional scheme promoted and completed by the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board, since 1946, and the respective sums actually expended by the Board for each and every constructional scheme; and what is the aggregate disparity between Estimates authorised by Parliament and actual costs since 1946.

The consent of my right hon. Friend is required to the borrowing by the Board of the sums needed to carry out its constructional schemes, and he is therefore in a position to consider the difference between these sums and the estimated costs given in the schemes presented to Parliament. In the case of the six completed hydro-electric schemes, estimated between 1944 and 1947 to cost £12,060,000, the sanctioned borrowing amounts to £27,825,600. In the case of seven transmission line schemes, estimated between 1947 and 1951 to cost £4,040,000, the sanctioned borrowing amounts to £4,714,870.

Will my hon. Friend institute some reasonable machinery for publishing, either in the Official Report or elsewhere, the disparity that now regularly exists between the sums authorised by this House for these very expensive schemes and the ultimate cost to the taxpayers?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to support the policy and endeavours of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board to electrify appropriate Highlands railway routes.

This is a matter for the British Transport Commission, with whom I understand the Board have had discussions.

As the Secretary of State for Scotland is now assuming statutory responsibility for all electricity matters in Scotland, would it not be reasonable for him to support the plea of the Chairman of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board, who so urgently wants to see these Highland railways electrified? Incidentally, so do I.

Answer.

May I have an answer?

The only answer I can give to my hon. Friend is that the British Transport Commission themselves do not consider that the electrification of these lines would be warranted.

On a point of order. May we be told, Mr. Speaker, how long a supplementary question should be before it is considered too long?

Hon. Members should be their own judges in this matter. I would ask the House to assist me to get on with the Questions, remembering that there are other hon. Members in the House and that we must not monopolise all the time.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the respective values of the fixed assets of each of the South-West, the South-East, and North of Scotland Hydro-Electricity Boards, expressed as an aggregate of all generation transmission andother ancillary electricity fixed assets, at the latest convenient date; and what would have been the value of the fixed assets of a single Scottish authority for electricity generation, transmission and sales, upon the date concerned

As this is a long answer, I will, with permission, circulate it in the Official Report.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that by keeping untenanted a large number of houses in Glasgow the Western Heritable Investment Company are in breach of the provisions of the statute under which the houses were built with the aid of subsidy from public funds; and what representations he has received from the Glasgow Corporation requesting him to discontinue the subsidy payments.

Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that this company is now seeking to let these houses at an increased rental which contains an element of the purchase price? This is contrary to the Rent Restriction Acts and, since Exchequer money is involved, will he take action in the matter?

I have no official information in reference to that matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to complaints from out-patients at Peel Hospital with regard to canteen facilities; and what his Department will do to assist the board of management in this matter.

I have written to my hon. and gallant Friend concerning a complaint he brought to my notice about the distance of the canteen from the out-patient department. It would be difficult to re-site the canteen, but I have no doubt that the board of management will consider what improvements are practicable.

Will my right hon. and gallant Friend bear in mind that this canteen is nearly 300 yards away? That is a long way for ill people to walk for a cup of tea. Will not my right hon. and gallant Friend try to assist the board of management to remedy this state of affairs?

We have also to bear in mind the cost.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a further statement regarding the Caldra system of netting rabbits

Bad weather unfortunately prevented Sir Eric de la Rue from giving officials apractical demonstration of his method of netting rabbits. He did, however, show them how his equipment is used, and they have reported to my right hon. Friend that the Caldra method would be effective on suitable ground. My right hon. Friend is grateful to Sir Eric for his enterprise, and the Department of Agriculture will do what they can to publicise his technique.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland; the number of deaths from coronary thrombosis in Scotland for 1951, 1952 and 1953.

There were 7,421 deaths from coronary thrombosis in 1951 and 7,738 in 1952. The provisional figure for 1953 is 7.566.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what increase there has been in the sums available for research in coronary thrombosis in Scotland in 1953.

Since I replied to the hon. Member on this subject last June, grants have been authorised for three further projects endorsed by the Advisory Committee on Medical Research in Scotland, at a total cost of £8,090. No project in this field endorsed by the Committee has been impeded by lack of finance

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that, where medical practitioners work in partnership, patients may enter the name of one of the partners as their doctor for National Health Service purposes; that this partner may thus accumulate more names on his register than is provided for in the regulations, although the patients are aware that they may be attended to by another partner; and if he will take the necessary action to ensure that no physician in partnership with colleagues is refused payment in such circumstances.

A doctor in a partnership has certain personal obligations to patients on his own list. By limiting the size of that list the regulations seek to prevent the acceptance of patients towards whom these obligations could not in practice be discharged. The present arrangements have been settled in agreement with the representatives of the profession, and I see no reason to alter them.

Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that one of the evil effects of this arrangement is that doctors who may wish to take assistants into partnership hold back, because, under the existing arrangements, they would have to canvass their patients in order to have them transferred to the name of the new partner? Many men who might well have become partners are consequently still assistants.

The arrangements allow a doctor to have 4,500 patients on his list so long as the average throughout the practice is 3,500. I do not see how a doctor can reasonably be expected to look after more than 4,500 patients.

That is not the point of the Question. Where a doctor has an assistant the number of patients is divided equally between the doctor and his assistant, but when he promotes the assistant to be a partner there is a new arrangement and, unlessthe patients nominate the partner, the doctor does not find the patients equally allocated between himself and the assistant. For that reason we require an alteration in the regulations, so that some encouragement is given to doctors to promote their assistants to be partners.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to encourage the formation of a meat marketing board

I would refer the hon. Member to paragraph 17 of the White Paper on Decontrol of Food and Marketing of Agricultural Produce. The Government's plan leaves scope for a producers' marketing board for meat.

Is the Joint Undersecretary aware that it was this paragraph that I had in mind? As this matter isof great importance to the agricultural industry in the North of Scotland, will he assure us that the Government are taking steps to see that this matter is pushed on and is not held up by possible delays south of the border?

There is sometimes a little confusion on this point. It is for the producers to produce a scheme. It is not for the Government to take the first step. It is not up to the agricultural Ministers to encourage the production of marketing schemes.

Does my hon. Friend consider it feasible for any marketing organisation to succeed unless provision is made to deal with the glut at the end of the summer grass season by chilling and by freezing?

That is a separate question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the unsatisfactory condition of the road from Lower Kilvaxter to Bornisketaig, he will take action for the early improvement of this road.

My right hon. Friend is aware of the condition of this road, and he is considering what steps can be taken to improve it.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this road has been in a bad condition for 20 years and that its condition now scarcely permits it to be called by the name of "road"? Can he not pay special attention to it?

We are giving sympathetic consideration to the proposal.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will arrange for experiments in the catching and processing of dog-fish and basking sharks for the production of oil and other products

The commercial possibilities of this fishery have already been discussed with the White Fish Authority and the Herring Industry Board, and my right hon. Friend will ask them to consider, in the light of further information now being sought, what action, if any, should be taken.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for that reply. May I ask if the Minister will draw the attention of the White Fish Authority to the fact that great quantities of basking sharks and dog-fish are caught by Norwegians round Shetland? There appears to be an insatiable market among the voracious public in Londonfor dog-fish under different names. Apart from the production of oil, there is the possibility of human food becoming available if the Authority will help.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the highest salary paid to headmasters in Lanarkshire, with or without special allowances, and the minimum; and the highest in operation in Glasgow, with or without special allowances, and the minimum.

In both areas the salaries paid by education authorities are governed by the Salaries Regulations, under which the salary varies according to the size and nature of the school. In effect, the maximum payable to a teacher who is at the top of the basic scale is £1,625 and the minimum £805. In Lanarkshire the highest salary paid is £1625 and the lowest £789, which is paid to a headmaster not yet at the top of his scale. In Glasgow, one headmaster has been excepted from the Regulations on the application of the education authority and receives a salary of £1,750. The lowest salary paid in Glasgow is £952.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received against the provisions of the Draft Regulations on Teachers' Salaries

Representations may be made up to 18th February, and on past experience the bulk of them will be received between now and that date. It is therefore too soon to assess the position. So far 279 representations have been received, 226 of which are printed postcards issued by the Glasgow Local Association of the Educational Institute of Scotland. The main points are that the increases in the basic scales are inadequate, that there should also be increases in responsibility payments, and that the changes proposed in the scales for women and male technical teachers with a view to reducing anomalies should not be made.

Is the Minister aware that there is very great ill-feeling in Scotland over the proposals contained in these Draft Regulations? Is he also aware that there is a very strong feeling that the provisions of these Regulations are meant to boost up the action previously taken by the Government in lowering the entrance qualification for women teachers, which will lead to a further deterioration in the proportion of graduate to non-graduate teachers in Scotland?

No, Sir. If the hon. Lady will wait until we have received all the representations, when we can make a statement, she will see that there are really no grounds for the suggestions which she has made.

Does not my hon. Friend—and, no doubt, the hon. Lady, as a teacher—agree that the record of the late Government in regard to the question of teachers' salaries was truly lamentable in their six years of office, especially compared with the approach made by the present Government?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will arrange for the teaching staff at the Royal Technical College, Glasgow, to be awarded family allowances on the same scales as teaching staff of Glasgow University.

No, Sir. Family allowances are not paid to the staffs of any educational establishments other than universities, but account of this is taken in the salary scales paid in degree departments at the Royal Technical College, which are slightly higher than at Glasgow University.

Is the Minister aware that the slightly higher salaries which are paid in the degree departments are attributable to the extra evening work done? Will he not have another look at this and make sure that technological education, which is so important, gets full university status in Scotland?

I agree that a high place should be given to technological education, but the £50 increase also took account of the fact that these teachers did not get a family allowance.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will establish a number of State scholarships, available at Scottish universities, for adult students attending adult education classes.

No, Sir. As recommended by the AdvisoryCouncil on Education in Scotland, responsibility for the award of bursaries in Scotland rests with education authorities, who have power to make awards to adult students attending universities.

Would not the Minister agree that the awarding of scholarships for adult students is a rather special case and that the treatment of this class of student varies a great deal between local authorities? Would he not agree that the Government might give a lead to local authorities on this matter?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that this Question of establishing State scholarships in Scotland, as in England, has been more than once considered by all those responsible, and the view has always been that the existing provisions in Scotland should stand.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many plans submitted by Glasgow Corporation to the Scottish Education Department for the construction of new schools since October, 1951 have not been approved, and what is the amount of the abortive expenditure incurred in consequence; and what is the normal time taken in other cases from the date of submission of plans until final approval.

All the plans except four submitted last week have been approved and there has therefore been no abortive expenditure, but in four cases plans had to be returned for revision before final approval could be given. Plans are now normally approved within six to eight weeks of their submission.

Surely the hon. Gentleman is aware that it is a simple matter to reduce the period of approval, and that what is at present being given is merely qualified approval? I have here several examples of plans approved subject to a reduction of £15,000; plans approved subject to a reduction of £150 per place; plans approved subject to a reduction of £3 4s. to £3 6s. Construction, obviously, cannot proceed on plans approved on that basis, and is it not about time that a working party or something of that nature were set up by the Department and the local authority?

I quite see the hon. Member's point, but it is exactly in order to deal with these matters of day-to-day administration that, as a first example, we established a working party between officials of the Department and Glasgow Corporation some little time ago.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many school places were provided from November to October in the years 1950–51, 1951–52 and 1952–53

Returns are made quarterly, and I am accordingly giving figures for years running from 1st October to 30th September. The number of places provided was 16,000 in 1950–51, 14,995 in 1951–52, and 20,076 in 1952–53.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence if, in view of the disturbance caused in the lives of young men who are conscripted intothe Forces, he will consider making a special grant of £100 after two years' service in addition to any moneys of which they may at present be in receipt; and £50 per year for every year of service thereafter to include both conscripts and volunteers.

No, Sir.

Does the Minister think we are doing enough for these Servicemen? Does he not realise that these men are taken from their homes at the formative period of their lives in order that they may join the Services? Surely he agrees with me that we are getting National Service on the cheap unless we are prepared to recognise what these men do by way of protecting the State and are prepared to give them this compensation for the disturbance caused in their lives?

The hon. Member will realise that it would be very expensive, costing over £16 million, and would also throw out of gear the whole system of terminal grants to men with long service. National Servicemen enjoy rights of reinstatement in employment and also are granted paid terminal leave in order to give them a chance to get back into employment.

Will my hon. Friend not agree that to the average young man and his family in this country it is a matter of great pride to be allowed to serve?

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall take an early opportunity of raising the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence how many National Service men have been court-martialled during the past three years

I regret that the answer to the hon. Member's Question could not be ascertained without undue labour, since the statistics kept by the Army do not distinguish between National Service men and other soldiers. In the Royal Navy and Royal Marines six, and in the R.A.F. 317, National Service men were convicted by court-martial during the past three years.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence whether men are retained in the Services after it is discovered that they are homosexuals

Men convicted of serious offences involving homosexuality are almost invariably dismissed as part of the sentence of the court, but the term "homosexuality" covers various degrees of perversion and it would not be right to treat all cases in the same way.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that I should still like an answer to this question: what is the policy of the Service Departments towards retaining in the Services men who are known to be homosexuals but who have not been convicted of any charge under that heading?

It is always open to the Services, if they think it right, to discharge a man administratively. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman is interested in the subject, I recommend him to read Annex No. 36 to the Report of the Select Committee on the Army Act and the Air Force Act, where he will see the policy of the Services very fully set out.

Will the hon. Gentleman make available to the Army and the Air Force the same code as is set out in the Admiralty Fleet Order dealing with this matter, which is a most sensible document?

As I understand it, the practice of the three Services in this matter is practically identical.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence how many copies of the books entitled "Accused," "Persian Pride," "Amok," "Vengeance," "Killer," "Pursuit and Auction" by the so-called Hank Janson have been distributed by Government representatives to members of the Armed Forces, and in what circumstances; and whether he will give instructions for the distribution of these books to cease

None of the books in the hon. Baronet's list has been distributed to the Forces through Service channels, but a small quantity of the books was purchased by N.A.A.F.I. All unsold copies of the seven books in question have been withdrawn.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence how many members of Her Majesty's Forces in Egypt have disappeared from their unite and have subsequently been traced to Paris.

One, Sir.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence what financial arrangements have been made for taking over the Hertford British Hospital in Paris for the use of British Service personnel

Negotiations with the hospital committee of management are nearing completion. It is proposed that, towards an estimated cost of£100,000 for putting the hospital in order, the committee will contribute £20,000. Certain beds will still be available for British civilians living in Paris.

Would it not have been cheaper for the public funds if Sir Bernard Docker's offer to keep this hospital going had been accepted in the first instance? Would not that have made it very much less costly to the Service Departments to obtain the necessary bed accommodation which is now being sought?

Sir Bernard Docker's financial affairs are not the concern of my noble Friend, and I cannot answer that question.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the circumstances in the case of Mr. G. T. Wills of Harlescott Depot, Shrewsbury, which have now been made known to him by hon. Members of this House who are members of the Amalgamated Engineering Union, he is prepared to re-engage this man in the service of his Department.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has noted the remarks of the Recorder in the case of Mr. G. T. Wills of Harlescott Depot, Shrewsbury; and whether he is prepared to restore this man to his previous position in his Department.

asked the Secretary of State for War what action he is taking arising from the case of the discharge of Mr. G. T. Wills, Harlescott Depot, Shrewsbury, to satisfy himself that the case was not one of victimisation.

asked the Secretary of State for War under whose authority the prosecution of Mr. G. T. Wills, Harlescott Depot, Shrewsbury, was initiated for eating a 1s. sandwich, for which he was fined £5 in the local court, a penalty which was later changed to a complete discharge by the Recorder.

asked the Secretary of State for War, in view of the decision by the Recorder to remit the fine imposed on Mr. G. T. Wills of Harlescott Depot, Shrewsbury, what steps he is taking to re-instate this man in his Department.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of his failure to reinstate Mr. G. T. Wills of Harlescott Depot, Shrewsbury, in the service of his Department, he is prepared to take the necessary steps to restore to this man his gratuity

:Mr. G. T. Wills, formerly a War Department unestablished employee and Chairman of the Canteen Committee at 43 "A" Vehicle Depot, Harlescott, was fined £5 for larceny of canteen sandwiches valued at 1s. He asked to have taken into account on his conviction his taking without payment over a period of some six months meals to approximately the value of £9 10s. His prosecution was the result of police inquiries instituted by the Officer Commanding 43 "A" Vehicle Depot. Mr. Wills had failed to exercise proper supervision over the running of the canteen.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that much of that reply is misleading? The charge upon which this man stood was that of eating a sandwich worth 1s. It was well understood over a long period that this was part of the perquisites of the job, and had this man been properly represented in the lower court he would undoubtedly have been acquitted. Why does not the right hon. Gentleman refer to the remarks of the Recorder calling upon the War Office to visit no other punishment upon this man, and why does he withhold, because of the sum of 1s., a gratuity worth £84? Is not this a gross abuse of power?

I had a long discussion about this with the hon. Member and other hon. Members interested in the case. I do not think I can go into detail about it in the House. I have been into it very carefully and I have made the offer to Mr. Wills of re-employment elsewhere. I cannot go any further.

May we take it that if Mr. Wills is reinstated in another Department of the War Office his gratuity for the past four years will be continued, since the case was dismissed?

No, Sir. It is automatic under a Treasury regulation that he forfeits his gratuity owing to this conviction.

Were not the Recorder's remarks equivalent to acquitting the man and saying that this was nothing more than a technical offence?

No. As the hon. Member may have noticed, the Recorder said the man did wrong and knew that be was doing wrong.

Are the facts of the case that the penalty imposed upon this man was not for the one offence involving 1s., but that others were taken into account which involved considerably more?

Yes—about £9 10s.

The hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. H. Nicholls) has been misled; he has not come across the case until today. Is the Minister aware that the original charge in the lower court was about 1s.,and that the man fully understood that that was the only charge? The sum of £6 16s. was dragged in by the defence to make the point that this man had pursued this policy in the innocent belief that he was entitled to do so as a perquisite of the job.

On reflection, I beg to give notice—[Hon. Members: "Too late."]—it is not too late; I beg to give notice that I intend to raise the matter of Mr. Wills on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for War why a man, whose name has been supplied to him, having registered for National Service on 13th August last year, having enlisted on 14th September in the Royal Berkshire Regiment on a 3-years'service engagement and having been discharged on 20th November on the ground that his services were no longer required for the purpose for which he enlisted, was not immediately transferred to another unit where he could complete the period of National Service instead of being allowed to return to civilian life and then, after an interval of four weeks, being required to register again for National Service

This man was given the opportunity to remain in the Army as a National Service man but did not take advantage of it.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this is very wasteful from the Army's point of view? The man has joined the Army, then he is found unsuitable for that unit; and instead of being allowed to continue his National Service, he is sent back to civilian life, then called up again and has to be equipped again. Is it not very disturbing for the boy and very wasteful to the Army?

That was not the case. This man joined as a Regular, and was later not fit as a Regular. He was asked whether he would continue as a National Service man, but he chose to be medically re-boarded, possibly in the hope that he would be rejected as a National Service man.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the views expressed in the official telegram received by British officials negotiating in Washington on the standardisation of small arms, stating that it was War Office policy to standardise the Belgian F.N. rifle in January, 1951, was approved by the Army Council and represented Government policy.

I have nothing to add to what was said last Tuesday.

Is it not clear from what the Minister has said that he was quite wrong to refer to something as Government policy which had not been approved either by the Army Council or the Minister concerned, and would it not be better now if he were to apologise to the right hon. Gentleman and withdraw the allegations he made in that debate?

I was particularly careful to refer to it as War Office policy and not Government policy.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman's memory betray him? In HANSARD, 1st February, c. 100, he quite definitely alleges that this was the policy of my right hon. Friend personally, and then, as he explained the next day, of the Government. That is surely a charge which has turned out to be unfounded.

No, Sir. I have looked the matter up in HANSARD most carefully, and if the hon. Gentleman looks he will see that what I said was:

"I will tell the right hon. Gentleman, if he will not be so impatient. I am stating that War Office policy as stated to the United States was,…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st February, 1954; Vol. 523, c. 101.]

The right hon. Gentleman will recognise that I have been very patient over this matter and with him personally. Will he be good enough to tell the House that he has written to me personally, conveying a qualified apology, and that I have written to him in reply, saying that I bear no malice? Would it not be proper for the right hon. Gentleman to be quite fair to the House and those concerned and give the facts without prejudice?

The right hon. Gentleman has certainly been most pleasant over this matter. I wrote to him to assure him that I did not spend my time digging in the back files of the War Office in order to try and score points off him. What I did state on every occasion wasthat this was War Office policy. I was most scrupulous in stating that.