asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will now remove the restrictions on the sale of second-hand British ships to foreign countries.

:No, Sir. A wide measure of freedom is allowed to shipowners to sell their ships abroad, but, for reasons of security and national defence, I cannot abolish all restrictions on the transfer of ships to overseas buyers.

:I wonder if my right hon. Friend would nevertheless look at the present restrictions to see if they could be relaxed further?

I do constantly, andI have discussions with the Chamber of Shipping from time to time. I am satisfied that at the moment they are not a serious hindrance to shipping industry but are a national value.

The sale of these obsolete ships to countries not conforming to the international code is creating serious competition between them and ourselves, so will the right hon. Gentleman lay down conditions that obsolete ships sold shall be broken up? Or will he confine their sale to those countries conforming to the regulations?

That shows a further reason why there should be some ultimate control in the Minister's hands. If the hon. Gentleman cares to talk to me afterwards, I will give him details about the relatively few ships that have been transferred in recent years.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that the view implied by the hon. Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Awbery) is not shared by any section of the Mercantile Marine, including the trade unions?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will now take steps to appoint a day after which no tanker or ship burning oil will be allowed into any United Kingdom port unless equipped with an oil separator and sludge tank.

:In their Report the Committee on the Prevention of Pollution of the Sea by Oil showed that oily-water separators were not required in tankers and recommended that this apparatus should be fitted only in those United Kingdom registered dry-cargo ships which use tanks alternately for oil fuel and water ballast. Legislation would be required to give effect to this recommendation and others made by the Committee and, as I informed the House on 16th December last, the necessary legislation will be introduced as soon as possible after the international conference on oil pollution which is to take place next April.

:While I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, it really is not sufficient. Will he give an undertaking that, following the international conference, he will not delay matters, that he will take the necessary steps, including the installation of sludge tanks, which is absolutely essential, and will not exclude from his consideration the possibility of imposing double port dues on any ships which do not conform to the regulations? Will he also find some way of rewarding the third engineers who see that the sludge is emptied in port and not on the high seas?

I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman had sufficient experience of international conferences to know that it would be unwise to say in advance what measures one proposed to take against shipping belonging to countries which one had invited to the conference.

While I applaud the motives of the right hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), how does he think he will get his petrol if his request is granted? His car will run no longer.

That has nothing to do with it. Will the Minister assure me that he will bear in mind that what really matters is that the Gulf Stream flows in our direction and that nothing that he can do will make it flow the other way, and that whatever the international conference may decide, he will never get our beaches clean unless he takes prompt and energetic measures about it, quite apart from any international conference?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the total collected in 1953 in respect of chargesmade to cover expenses of foreigners detained at London Airport at the request of the immigration officer, pending their enforced return to the countries from which they came; and what was the number of foreigners involved.

In 1953, 28 foreigners were held in detention quarters at London Airport before being flown out of the country. Twelve different airlines were concerned with these detentions, and I regret that I do not know how much they collected.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what charges are made by his Department to airline companies using the detention block for accommodating passengers arriving at London Airport who are ordered to leave the country.

Charges are made by my Department to airline companies at the rate of 15s. per night per passenger for the use of the accommodation in the detention block at London Airport. If, exceptionally, my Department provides an escort or guard at the request of the immigration officer, the normal charge of 8s. per hour is made to the airline company.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, in view of the progress being made in the production of the jet-propelled helicopter, the Rotodyne, by Fairey Aviation Company, what preparations are being made in London and other large towns for helicopter landing stations.

:Until we know more about the requirements of future helicopters, detailed preparation of air-stops cannot take place, but 46 local authorities have been given all existing information on the selection of sites.

:Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that, unless there is foresight and enterprise in London, the provincial authorities are hamstrung by not knowing what is to happen in London? Cannot there be some decision on this very important matter?

:There is no lack of foresight. It is important to await the development of the twin-engine helicopter to know what sort of landing ground is necessary. The L.C.C. has agreed with the occasional experimental helicopter landings on the South Bank for some years, but a more permanent site must await development of the twin-engine helicopter, and I look with confidence to the Bristol 173, which will begin its trials this summer.

:Can the right hon. Gentleman name any date when this machine named in the Question is likely to be flying?

:I think it is a most interesting and will, I hope, prove a very valuable machine, but it will be some years before it is in commercial operation.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation which are the alternative aerodromes for civil aircraft wishing to land in the Newcastle-upon-Tyne area when Woolsington Airport is unserviceable.

:The nearest aerodrome available for civil use, and with a range of facilities corresponding to those at Woolsington, is Edinburgh (Turn-house). Limited facilities are, however, available at WestHartlepool and, in emergency, civil aircraft may be diverted to the R.A.F. aerodrome at Acklington.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how far it is the policy of his Department to permit the Air Corporations to offer charter services on any route.

:As I have previously informed the House, the chairmen of the Air Corporations have undertaken not to maintain aircraft specifically for charter work, which has always been recognised as the domain of the independent companies and only incidental to the main business of the Corporations as operators of scheduled services. Subject to the limitations which this principle implies, the Corporations are free to tender for charter work including ad hoc trooping operations. The Corporation chairmen recently informed me that they did not understand that charter work included trooping, but I see no reason to modify long established Government policy in this respect.

If that is so, can the Minister say why he approved, and the Corporation have ordered, special aircraft for freight traffic?

:When the Corporation applied to me, I think in February, 1953, for permission to buy five Britannias, I made it plain in the correspondence from my Department to them that this was on the basis that they realised that they had a commercial use in mind for the aircraft, and that all applications for new freight routes would have to go to the A.T.A.C.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how special freight aircraft which cost £800,000 apiece can be used on other than charter or freight services?

:It is for the Corporation to make up their minds on commercial considerations. I never left them in any doubt as to the position, which is precisely the same as it was under the Socialist Administration, when all trooping contracts were placed by competitive tender, a thing that could not have been done had these been regarded as scheduled operations.

:When B.O.A.C. told the right hon. Gentleman about their intention to purchase these Britannia aircraft, did they indicate where they hoped to use them?

To the best of my recollection they said that they proposed to buy five Britannias, and I am not sure whether they said they had in mind further operations in the Atlantic or not; but I know that in my letter to them I made it quite plain that they would have to apply to the A.T.A.C. like anybody else for any freight route other than their existing one to Singapore.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what detailed programmes of new services have been submitted to him by independent air transport companies.

The detailed programmes of independent air transport companies for new air services take the form of applications to the Air Transport Advisory Council which are advertised in the national Press.

In view of that answer, can the Minister say what was the implication behind thestatement made to my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick), in answer to a supplementary question last week, when the right hon. Gentleman said that he was prepared to consider programmes submitted to him by a charter company?

:I have made it perfectly plain that I do not consider these applications unless and until they are recommended to me for provisional approval by the A.T.A.C. There is a later Question on the Order Paper dealing with internal services, but I am not sure whether or not it will be reached. From the early days, when consideration has been given to the possibility of handing over internal routes to private operators in the United Kingdom, I have been prepared to consider that in advance of any such applications, because that was outside the purview of the A.T.A.C. With regard to A.T.A.C. applications, I have no advance knowledge of any application.

The Minister made a specific reference to a detailed programme from this particular company. Will he say why he is prepared to accept a detailed programme from this company before it is submitted to the Air Transport Advisory Council?

:There are three stages in this operation, first, the approach to A.T.A.C.; secondly, their recommendation to me together with backing from the country to which they are to go, and, thirdly, after all that, they come back with detailed plans for the route already granted to them, and I look at safety and other angles as well as, once again, at the provisional recommendation.

:Does the Minister deny that through his Department promises have been given to charter companies on specific routes?

Most certainly. If the hon. Gentleman is trying to suggest that there has been something underhand in my conduct of this business, then I hope that he will prevail on his colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench to put down a Motion on the Order Paper for the reduction of my salary.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation under what circumstances he is consulted before new aircraft are purchased by the Air Corporations.

:I am in constant touch with the chairmen of both Corporations at all stages during the development of new types of aircraft. They seek my approval before placing production orders for aircraft to be used in their operational fleets.

:In view of that answer, can the Minister say why he approved the purchase of the five Britannias while, at the same time, denying the Corporation the operational use for them?

When they asked me if they could buy five Britannias I said, "Yes, provided (1) you are satisfied that there is a commercial use for them, and (2) you realise that you will have to go to the A.T.A.C. for permission to operate on any new freight route.

:Is it not a fact that the Minister prevented the commercial use of these planes which he had authorised by giving the contract to Air-work and denying it to B.O.A.C.?

:That, again, is wholly wrong. The chairman of the Corporation agreed with me to hold off for one year.

But under pressure.

:He gave me an undertaking that they would hold off for one year. I think that the sooner we have the debate the more interesting and the more surprising it will be from all points of view. The Corporation gave me an undertaking to hold off for one year until last July, since when they have been as free as anybody else. They announced in a Press statementin February last their intention to apply for a freight route. They have not done so, though there have been many months since when they were entirely free to make application.

Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman that he sanctioned the Britannia aircraft on the understanding that there would be no commercial use for them? Will he say whether the chairman voluntarily offered the 12 months'standstill arrangement or whether the right hon. Gentleman asked them to agree to that standstill arrangement? Finally, will he take it from me that there is a lot to be said, not merely for a reduction of his salary—[Hon. Members: "Question."] Hon. Members do not understand Parliamentary business. I am asking the Minister. Will he take it from me that there is a lot to be said, in view of his general conduct regarding the backing up of private interests as against public interests, not merely for a reduction in his salary, but for its complete abolition?

I think I would be most unwise to take anything of any kind from the right hon. Gentleman, except to follow scrupulously the policy of the Labour Government in regard to air trooping. In this case, I left it to the commercial discretion of a socialised industry set up by the party opposite to decide whether, in the light of my warning conveyed in correspondence, they wished to go ahead with the purchase of the Britannias. As to their undertaking to hold back for one year, I announced it at the time in this House. I have never disguised anything at all. I asked them to do it—of course they did not volunteer—and they agreed.

:Will the Minister say, in view of the fact that Sir Miles Thomas has said that he has received no encouragement since the end of the 12 months'period to apply for a licence, and as this was reproduced in the public Press last week, whether that implies or is meant to imply that the Minister has used some persuasion upon him to make him refrain from applying for a licence?

:That is wholly untrue. I have used no such persuasion of any kind. If it would be improper for me to try to encourage a private operator to apply for a particular route, it would be equally improper for me to do the same in the case of the Corporation.

:On a point of order. Are we now to understand, Mr. Speaker, that if at Question time we preface a statement, whether party political or otherwise, with the words, "Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me," that automatically becomes a question?

The question to which the hon. Member refers is interrogative. The answer can always be "No."

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to what extent it is within the policy of his Department to consider new proposals of air services from private firms before such proposals have been submitted to the Air Transport Advisory Council.

When considering the United Kingdom internal network, I was prepared to consider such schemes so as to help the United Kingdom taxpayer. Apart from this the answer is "None, Sir."

The Minister made a specific statement in the House to the effect that he was prepared to consider a detailed programme from this firm. Does that mean that he is prepared to consider it before it is agreed with the Air Transport Council, and, if not, will he say since when the Air Transport Advisory Council has been empowered to consider any agreement which involves not only a new route, but price-fixing on other routes?

:I think that the sooner we start up a school of rudimentary facts on air transport, the more helpful it will be for everybody. The detailed technical examination follows after and not before the approval by the A.T.A.C.

:Is the Minister trying to tell me that in the directive to the Air Transport Advisory Council there is any statement which says that they can consider an agreement which compels the Corporation to maintain a price rate higher than that which the Corporation would otherwise maintain?

That is quite another matter; it does not arise in the least out of this.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the result of the consultations he had with the chairman of British Overseas Airways Corporation in regard to the operation of an all-freight service by Airwork on the North Atlantic route; and what undertakings he received from the former in regard thereto.

I have had a number of consultations with the chairman of B.O.A.C. and the Chairman of Airwork. The two chairmen told me that they would consider the possibilities of co-operation in the national interest in the development of their respective North Atlantic services. This is the only undertaking I have received.

:Will the Minister give an assurance to the House that during these consultations he has in no way exercised influence, persuasion or pressure on B.O.A.C. to get them to agree that they will not engage in the all-freight North Atlantic service, and that he has not in any way given preference to Airwork in that respect?

I can give that complete assurance as from July, 1953. in regard to the persuasion of the Corporation, and absolutely for all time in regard to Airwork.

:Can my right hon. Friend tell me to what extent these two firms are likely to provide services which are competitive with each other?

I think it is true to say that they are complementary rather thancompetitive. The primary function of B.O.A.C., as has been repeatedly said by Lord Pakenham and previous Ministers, is to develop passenger and mail services. I regard the field of freight as being primarily the function of private operators.

:Can the Minister tell us why he thinks that freight is the private right of private air companies? Can I ask him, further, whether the agreement between the Corporation and the private enterprise firm to co-operate in the national interest means that they are going to keep out of each other's way on various routes, and are entering into an agreement of that sort?

:I never referred to the question of rights. No one has any rights in the matter, except the right of application to the A.T.A.C. I am at a loss to understand why hon. Members opposite are so disturbed by some new vigour being introduced into air operations.

:As it is apparent that further information may be required on this matter, I beg to give notice that I shall raise it on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what assurances have been given to Air-work in regard to their exclusive operation of an all-freight service on the North Atlantic route.

None, Sir.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation under what procedure the House has been informed of the proposed agreement, embodying new principles of policy, between the British Overseas Airways Corporation and Airwork Limited.

I know of no proposed agreement between British Overseas Airways Corporation and Airwork Limited which embodies new principles of policy on which the House should be informed. I asked the chairmen to explore together the possibility of a working arrangement, but any agreement reached between these airlines would be confined to co-operation in commercial matters within the framework of the Government's air transport policy as already disclosed to Parliament.

If there has been no pressure and if, in this case, there is not even a tacit understanding—and all that has happened is that the Minister has asked the chairman of the Corporation to explore the possibilities together with the chairman of the private company—will the Minister be good enough to tell the House why it is that in this agreement all the concessions are made by the public Corporation? What advantage is to follow to the public Corporation? [Hon. Members: "How do you know?"] The Minister gave us details last week. Will he tell his hon. Friends whether it is true that all the concessions are to be made by the public Corporation? Cart he say what incentive or motivation has been given to the Corporation to make all these concessions, voluntarily, to a private company?

:That is a very long supplementary question, based on a complete misunderstanding. No agreement has been reached. I have heard nothing from either side that agreement has been reached. If the hon. Member will refer tothe statement I made last week, he will see that it deals with quite another matter.

:Will my right hon. Friend give the House an assurance that he will do nothing that might inhibit in any way the legitimate development of private enterprise charter air companies?

indicated assent.

:The Minister having given the assurance—by a nod—that he will give special regard—[Hon. Members: "No."] Yes. that was the question—to the interests of private enterprise, may I ask the Minister whether it is not his duty, among others, to see that there is reasonable and equitable fair play between public and other interests?

I have often heard the right hon. Gentleman twist something rather quickly, but never quite so fast as that. My hon. Friend asked for an assurance that I would do nothing to inhibit the development of private enterprise. He did not ask for an assurance that I would give it special protection.

Since the right hon. Gentleman has now reached the end of his Questions, may I ask him whether he regards his responsibilities as being concerned with public interest, or does he disclose in his administration a bias in favour of private enterprise?

I take it that the right hon. Gentleman's intervention is in the field of private enterprise on his front bench, and not on behalf of the Corporation. I consider my duty to be to get private enterprise and the Corporations to work together for the goodof the people who really matter—the travelling public.

rose—

:Order. We have wasted too much time on this matter.

No.

rose—

Order. In my opinion this is a big subject, which ought to be raised on a Supply Day. We cannot deal with it at Question time, by Question and answer.

:On a point of order. May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, with all due deference, so that we may be guided in the future, if you will indicate which of our Questions you consider were a waste of time in relation to this subject?

:The hon. Member has no right to put words into my mouth. I never suggested that it was any waste of time. What I said was that the House had been a long time on these Questions. If I inadvertently used the word "waste"I did not apply it to any particular Member or Question. There was probably a misunderstanding about that. I suggested that, in the interests of the House and the elucidation of the Question which hon. Members are discussing, the time of the House would be better employed on a debate on the Estimates and not in Questions.

In view of your statement that the House would employ its time better in a debate on a Supply Day, may I be allowed to ask the Leader of the House whether he will grant time for a debate on this matter?

The allocation of subjects on a Supply Day is in the hands of the Opposition.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to what extent the policy of his Department permits British Overseas Airways Corporation to reduce its fares on cabotage routes.

As fares on cabotage routes must be fixed in relation to fares on international routes, reductions are subject to my approval.

:Will the Minister, therefore, give an assurance to the House that if B.O.A.C. wishes to reduce its fares on these routes he will not object?

I can give no such assurance. There has been a tacit understanding, accepted by Ministers and the Corporations—which is a much more satisfactory way of dealing with these matters than by mandatory action—that cabotage fares will be subject to Ministerial approval. I must see their application before I can give any answer.

:Is the Minister now telling the House that there is a tacit understanding, to be enforced by him, that B.O.A.C. cannot reduce its fares even if commercial considerations so dictate?

:The hon. Member was once a Parliamentary Secretary of my Department. Since the passing of the Act the Minister has always had the final word in regard to cabotage fares, by a tacit agreement between himself and the chairmen of the Corporations.

:Can my right hon. Friend say where hon. Members opposite are briefed by B.O.A.C, so that we can all attend?

:Is the Minister aware that our information and briefing are much less than those of the commercial television interests?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many fatal road accidents there were per 10,000 vehicles in 1930, 1938 and 1952.

:The number of fatal road accidents per 10,000 mechanically-propelled road vehicles is: in 1930, 32; 1938, 22.5; 1952, 9.6.

:Will my hon. Friend ensure that these favourable figures are given equal publicity to the unfavourable figures?

:We give the figures with complete objectivity and draw attention at the same time to those features that are favourable as well as to those that are unfavourable.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviationif he will state for the latest year for which both figures are available, the total number of road accidents and the number of these accidents in which, in the opinion of the police, dogs in the carriageway were re garded as a contributory factor.

:In 1952 there were 171,757 personal injury accidents of which 2,596 were attributed primarily to dogs in the carriageway.

:Did my hon. Friend hear a statement recently by a Member of the Opposition that dogs are responsible for one in six road accidents?

I believe the correct figure is one in 70.

:As it is estimated that in only one-tenth of the cases do the names and addresses of owners appear on the collars of dogs, will the hon. Gentleman, in order to avoid some of these accidents, consult the Home Secretary with a view to having the names and addresses of owners put on the collars of all dogs in future? Could there not be a check to ensure that this is done before new licences are granted?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation when "Road Accidents 1952"will be published; and if he will present this as a Parliamentary Paper.

I understand that "Road Accidents 1952" will be published next week. My right hon. Friend does not propose to present it as a Parliamentary Paper, but will make it available at the Vote Office.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if, in view of the fact that in the past four years there have been 1,275 accidents, 22 of them fatal, on the 863 miles of the A34 road passing through Stoke-on-Trent and Newcastle-under-Lyme, he will, as highway authority, consult with the two local authorities about special measures to reduce accidents on this road.

:There has been frequent consultation with the two local authorities, and my officers will maintain close touch with them about measures to reduce accidents on this road. Some measures have already been taken, and others are under consideration.

:These actions not having been sufficient to produce results, is the Minister aware that the only solution is a by-pass road round Newcastle-under-Lyme and Stoke-on-Trent? In the meantime, will he take steps to obtain concerted police and safety action on this road more urgently than heretofore? That is the only way to reduce the dangers on this "road of death" as the "Staffordshire Sentinel" called it?

The police there, as elsewhere, have many difficulties. I have been looking carefully into this matter and I will gladly discuss the matter with all hon. Members interested, if they care to arrange it.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (1) the present estimated cost of the projectedroad bridge over the Forth; how long its most speedy construction would take; and to what extent the construction could be proceeded less speedily with any economy; and

:I am advised that the bridge and its approaches as originally planned would cost about £13½ million, that they would take at least six years to construct and that no appreciable economy would result from a slower rate of construction. No reliable estimate could be given of the expenditure in each separate year until plans had been prepared in greater detail.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his previous replies have created the impression that he has finally decided against the building of a bridge? On the assumption that that is a mistake, may I ask whether he is aware that the joint board have now produced a scheme which would give a modified plan reducing the capital cost to about £9 million, and that the expenditure per year, increasing from the first year, would begin at only about £200,000? Does not the Minister consider it to be desirable to make steady progress towards the eventual building of the bridge rather than to create the impression that he has decided against it?

:What I am concerned about is to improve as soon as possible the facilities across the Forth for the people who need them today. Because of that I have been anxious that the Commission should get on with improving the ferry services without a feeling that there might be a bridge within the next few years. I have felt obliged to say that I could not put the bridge in the immediate programme. I have not ruled it out. I am constantly looking at the matter in the light of the situation as conditions change and develop.

:Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the urgency of getting some improvement of some sort before either the bridge can be completely built or an improved ferry introduced? Some expediency is urgently called for within the next 18 months.

We shall have some news in the next month, because I expect that the report on Sir Bruce White's proposal will be with me in March.

In view of the very bad reception which the Minister's recent proposals for road improvement in Scotland and elsewhere received, would not the right hon. Gentleman repent somewhat and let us get on with at least the first two or three years' work on the bridge? Does not he realise that any improvement in the ferry will not placate Scottish people?

:Such reception as I have received compares very favourably with what would happen if those in the Labour Government who promised an ambitious programme and withdrew it within nine months ever care to remind the public of what they said.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will put into operation the plan for a West Cumberland trunk road in view of the industrial needs of the area.

:I regret that I cannot say when it will be possible to fit this very expensive scheme into the programme.

Does the Minister realise that there has been tremendous industrial development in this area since the war and that there is now a very important atomic energy establishment there, and that the road is very vitally needed? Will he reconsider the matter and give it a measure of high priority?

:I will certainly look at the last point made by the hon. Gentleman in his supplementary question, but the figures submitted to me show that the number of vehicles likely to use the road is only 230 per hour and the cost would be £2,750,000, and I could not possibly agree to that.

:Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that at the moment road communications in this industrial area are extremely bad and that the road is urgently needed? Will he give the matter sympathetic consideration?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether there has yet been any agreement reached between the Durham County Council and the Durham City Council on the question of the new road through Durham.

Not as far as I know, Sir.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the dangerous situation in the City of Durham at the moment because of the increased traffic and the need for the new road? Is he aware that in 1937 therewas an agreed scheme? What has become of it? If no agreement is reached between the two authorities in the near future, will the right hon. Gentleman himself suggest a scheme?

I will have a look at the matter. The trouble at the moment isthat the county council want to take the high level road and the city council the low level, and until they reach agreement I am in rather a difficulty.

Is lack of finance one of the reasons why agreement has not been reached? Will the righthon. Gentleman extend his sympathy to these authorities if and when they wish to proceed?

:The best sequence of action would be for them to agree and come to me with an agreed scheme, and I should then have to judge it in the light of existing priorities.

:While the Minister has to depend on plans submitted by the local authorities, my hon. Friend the Member for Durham (Mr. Grey) has correctly stated that on more than one occasion the two authorities have been at variance with each other about which way the road should go. Surely the right hon. Gentleman will be receiving reports from his road engineer about the matter. Would it not be in the interests of both local authorities if the Minister could find time to visit Durham and look at the matter himself?

:I am quite ready to do that, but both authorities have promised to report to me on the matter and neither has yet done so, and I am awaiting their reports as a preliminary.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether his attention has been called to the transport difficulties on Humberside; and what plans have been submitted for new bridges for Hull.

Yes, Sir. With regard to the second part of the Question, no plans have been submitted to my Department.

:Will the Minister undertake to give sympathetic consideration to any proposals which are put to his Department or to him personally for new bridges in Hull?

Every proposal isalways received most sympathetically in the Ministry of Transport, but it is not always possible to agree with it.

:In considering this proposal, will the Minister bear in mind the urgent needs of much better transport facilities for both industry and agriculture in Lincolnshire?

The importance of agriculture and industry will both be borne in mind.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (1) the number of zebra pedestrian crossings authorised by him in the City of Manchester; and how many sites proposed by the Manchester Corporation have been rejected since January, 1953;

:One hundred and thirty-nine zebra crossings have been authorised in Manchester. Since January, 1953, there have been applications for seven more, of which one has been rejected because there are already two crossings near the proposed site and six are still the subject of consultation with the City Corporation.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary tell me how he and his advisers in the Ministry in London are able to determine the appropriate number of pedestrian crossings in the City of Manchester? Is he aware that the delay in granting permission for this and other crossings is the cause of great concern in the city because of the dangerous state of the roads at the proposed sites? Does he think that the local authority and people of Manchester are not more qualified to determine the site of local pedestrian crossings than the Ministry in London?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that his right hon. Friend who was Minister of Transport in the last Government issued a circular on 20th June, 1951, calling for a reduction of two-thirds in the number of pedestrian crossings. In the case of Manchester, that reduction has been made. As regards the question who is in a better position to decide where a crossing is required, this responsibility is delegated to the D.R.E.

:Can the hon. Gentleman explain why canal fencing is a matter for local consideration and zebra crossings are decided in Whitehall?

:Because road traffic is a national problem, since vehicles pass all over the country, whereas the problem of canal accidents chiefly concerns those who live near canals.

Will the Minister reconsider the unfavourable decision which I understand has been made in regard to the crossings outside the Christie Hospital?

:All these matters are being considered at the present time. It is found that some of the crossings that were decided upon when the original reduction was made are not particularly necessary, and this matter is being discussed between the D.R.E. and the Manchester Corporation, as some of the new crossings which have been applied for might with advantage be substituted for some of the others at the same time.

I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what further preliminary consultations are required with bodies or individuals before he will be in a position to introduce legislation to improve road safety.

:I have already completed my consultations with the interested parties over a large part of the field, but there are certain proposals involving the police and local authorities as well as road users on which I shall need to consult the representative bodies concerned before I can proceed further.

Is the Minister aware that as recently as the Queen's Speech last November road safety legislation was promised for this Session? Is there no limit to the speed with which the Government break their promises in this connection?

As recently as a fortnight ago I answered Questions on this matter in detail.

:Can the Minister say whether a Bill on road safety has been crowded out by the Bill on commercial television?

:The answer to the right hon. Gentleman is that it is my hope and intention to proceed with the Bill as early as practicable—words borrowed from the late Administration.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (1) whether he will take steps to improve the conditions on the Fort William—Mallaig trunk road A.830;

As my noble Friend knows, a good deal of work has been done on this road to make it fit for heavier vehicles, but to bring it to the desired standard would cost over £½ million, and I am sorry that, having regard to other claims throughout the country, I am unlikely to be able to authorise this in the near future. Meanwhile I regret that I cannot raise the limit beyond six tons.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that after the war this road and the bridges on it very happily bore the weight of eight-ton lorries without any trouble at all? Is he further aware that this road is positively the worst trunk road that Britain owns, and is it not about time that this highway was improved so that it merited the name "trunk road"?

I hope to live to see that happen.

:Would the right hon. Gentleman ask all Members to visit this road themselves—it is reputed to be the loveliest road in the world—and then they will be able to bring pressure to bear on the right hon. Gentleman?

:Is the Minister aware that sections of this road between Fort William and Mallaig are in a worse condition than many private roads leading into crofts? Will he look at this question again, because undoubtedly the road carries a volume of holiday tourist traffic and there should be better facilities than there are at present?

I will go there myself shortly.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, since it was not the intention of Her Majesty's Government when negotiating the passage of the Transport Bill through the House in 1953 that house coal delivery service vehicles should be made liable for payment of the transport levy, and since such schemes, co-operatively run by miners, are non-profit-making schemes which in no way compete with the railways, he will have this matter re-examined with a view to removing the levy from domestic schemes of this kind.

:It was made clear during the debates on the Transport Bill that the cheapest and simplest way to collect the levy was to relate it to the categories of vehicles established for vehicle taxation and that it would be impracticable to discriminate between the various uses to which vehicles were put within those categories. This principle was incorporated in the Transport Act, 1953, and I have no power to alter it.

Is the Minister aware that these domestic schemes run by coal miners' co-operatives were neither nationalised nor de-nationalised, and that the only effect of the de-nationalisation legislation was to impose a burden upon them which never existed before? Does not he think that, as the schemes never can compete with the railways, the position ought to be re-examined?

:Had the right hon. Gentleman put those considerations to me during the passage of the Bill, I should have listened to them with sympathy, but now I am advised that legally such vehicles—however much I sympathise with what the right hon. Gentleman has in mind—must be classed as businesses. I have no option but to carry out the terms of the Act.

Is not the simplest way out to stop selling the lorries?

Willthe Minister between now and the forthcoming Budget consult the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see if the Finance Act, 1952, can be amended to exclude these schemes from the levy?

I could give no such undertaking, I am afraid. The complications if we attempted to discriminate would, I think, daunt even the bravest soul.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (1) whether he is aware that Mr. Harry Brown of Birmingham, made an appeal under Section 81 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, more than 18 weeks ago, and that no Ministerial decision has yet reached the appellant or his legal representatives; why this protracted delay is occurring; and why Ministerial decisions in such casescannot be given with reasonable promptitude;

:I have now given my decision on Mr. Harry Brown's appeal and it has been communicated to the parties. This particular appeal presented great difficulties mainly of a legal nature. The appeal of Gliderways Coaches raised some complex issues and it took longer than usual to reach a decision and draft the necessary order. As the Thesiger Committee recognised, the time taken between the lodging of an appeal and the holding of an inquiry into it cannot be significantly shortened. The interval between the inquiry and decision depends mainly on the complexity of the case, but I can assure my hon. Friend that theneed for speed in dealing with these appeals is fully recognised and every endeavour is made to reach and announce a decision as quickly as practicable.

May I thank my right hon. Friend for a very sympathetic and a helpful answer?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he has yet considered the memorandum recently sent to him by the Association of British Chambers of Commerce objecting to the application by the British Transport Commission for an increase of 10 per cent. in railway freight charges; if in considering it, he will bear in mind the special need of Scottish industry, particularly the fishing industry, in North-East Scotland; and if he will make a statement on the subject.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will now make a statement concerning the proposed increase in freight charges: and whether he will withhold his approval to any increase affecting the North of Scotland.

:I have decided to accept the advice of the Permanent Members of the Transport Tribunal, acting as a Consultative Committee, and to authorise the British Transport Commission as from 1st March to increase by 10 per cent.the railway freight, dock and canal charges now in operation, subject in the case of merchandise by freight train and perishable traffic by passenger train to a maximum of 10s. a ton. I am circulating with the Official Report a copy of the Committee's Memorandum, which sets out fully the considerations justifying the increase.

:Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that I cannot thank him for that answer—for that outrageous increase in freight charges? Does he realise that, on the memorandum of the Chamber of Commerce, he is acting against the evidence before him and that both capital and labour are in favour of, not an increase, but a reduction in the discrimination against the North of Scotland?

:I would say to the hon. and learned Gentleman that if he reads the Memorandum submitted to me by the Transport Tribunal, dealing as it does with the consequences of increased costs, including charges, then perhaps on reflection he would ask his question in a slightly different way, though I do not expect that he would be any more pleased with my answer.

:Does my right hon. Friend realise that the law of diminishing returns is already beginning to operate in the North of Scotland, and that for a very long period we have had a case for special consideration on freight rates? This applies to all areas remote from production centres. Cannot he ask the chairman of the Transport Commission to go more fully into the question of tapering charges for freight rates?

:I should like to answer the question of my noble Friend straight away. I have the greatest sympathy with those who have to pay freight in Scotland and other parts of the United Kingdom where long hauls are involved. Under the 1953 Act I specially provided that there should be a new procedure, the detailed rules of which have been made by the Transport Tribunal, enabling the Commission to submit the heads of proposals for a merchandise scheme in a different way from that which would otherwise have been possible. The question of Scotland must be settled between the operator—the Commission—the Transport Tribunal and the transport interests in Scotland. I have reason to believe that the Commission hope to be able to formulate and submit to the Transport Tribunal heads of proposals, though not a complete merchandise charges scheme, at an early date. That will be the opportunity for Scottish interests to argue with vigour the question of tapering.

:On the general question of the increase of 10 per cent. in freight charges throughout the whole industry, could the Minister tell us how much less than 10 per cent. would have been needed if the Commission had been able to rely upon £7 million profit from British Road Services this year?

:All those who talk in that fashion lose sight altogether of the fact that the Commission will be reimbursed both by the sale of the lorries and by the transport levy designed to fill the gap. [Hon. Members: "No."] In addition, they will have a substantial annual saving of net interest costs. This should be borne in mind when hon. Gentlemen make charges of that kind. I would also remind the hon. Gentleman that the Commission will have very substantial road haulage services, in some ways easier units to maintain in the next few years, and if they do well with them, as I hope they will, they may improve on the record of the last six years which is not at all a happy financial one.

:Does that long and rather irrelevant answer mean than, if the Commission were able to rely upon the profits of £7 million again this year, the increase would not have had to be more than 6 per cent.? Why does the right hon. Gentleman continue to blame it wholly on increased wages?

:Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, while he can safely ignore the narrow party points which are made by the Opposition, the extra burden put on industry will be a grievous one, and will he do everything he can to bring about some reduction at an early date?

:Indeed I will, but we must see this in perspective. Taking 100 as the pre-war figure, railway freights after this increase will represent 253 compared with the figure of 323 for the General Index of Wholesale Prices. Following is the Committee's Memorandum:

• (1) that at the present level of their various rates and charges the revenue of the Commission in a full future year would fall short of the expenditure chargeable against this revenue by about £25 million:
• (2) that of this total prospective deficiency about £23 million would be attributable to British Railways treated as a separate activity:
• (3) that the increases for which authority was sought would in a full year produce additional revenue in the case of British Railways of about £23 million and in the case of the Docks and Canals of about £1·5 million.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what action he is taking to encourage the use of crash helmets by motor-cyclists.

I am taking every opportunity to encourage motor-cyclists to wear safety helmets, and considerable progress has already been made and will, I hope, continue. It is not my present intention to make the use of helmets compulsory.

Has the right hon. Gentleman's Department accepted the specification produced by the British Standards Institution? I have reason to doubt that that is so. If it is to be accepted by the Ministry as a Department, can publicity be given to the matter, for instance, in the case of the manufacturers and by pictorial representation all over the country?

I am not quite sure what the hon. Gentleman means by "accept."I mentioned in the House and in a broadcast that the British Standards Institution had come to definite recommendations. I have seen a crash helmet to this specification at the headquarters of the Road Research Laboratory, and I give it every possible encouragement.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what speed limits are particularly applicable to motor-cyclists.

:A motor bicycle is subject to the same speed limits as a private car.

Could the matter be looked at again by the Ministry's technical advisers because of the peculiar mechanical characteristics of the motor cycle?

"A sight to watch for in Westminster, A tall man…wearing black jacket, pin-striped trousers and an Anthony Eden hat, riding a powerful motor-cycle. His destination: the House of Commons."

I have seen a few hon. Members in the House answering that description.

The hon. Member for Langstone (Mr. Stevens) is the hon. Member referred to. He is quoted as saying at a dinner at the House of Commons:

"I wager I am the only man who comes to the House at 90 m.p.h. with his umbrella clipped to the front of his bike and an Anthony Eden hat fixed firmly on his head."

I did not read the report in the "Evening Standard."I should be deeply indebted to the hon. Member if he would send it to me, for I should much enjoy reading it.