asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what orders to, or requests to place orders with, British firms or shipyards by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics have been received; how many, and what kinds of ships are concerned; whether the orders, or requests to place orders, have yet been accepted; and by which firms, in Scotland and England, respectively.

I would refer the hon. and learned Member to the reply which my hon. Friend the Civil Lord gave to him last Wednesday.

Will the First Lord say upon what principle these allocations are made, and why so few are made to Aberdeen?

Is not that a supplementary question which should be asked on Question No. 2?

I have asked a supplementary question to Question No. 1.

There is no question of allocation at the moment. Orders have first to be placed with the firms before the Admiralty is asked to give a licence. The only one actually placed is the order at Lowestoft for 20 trawlers. The matter of placing orders in individual yards is one for the enterprise of the firms concerned.

I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. I made a mistake about the Question.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that the rate at which orders were placed with British shipbuilding yards in 1953 is below the annual replacement figures for preceding years; that this threatens losses to British shipbuilding and unemployment; and what are his present and future plans to avoid these losses.

As my hon. Friend the Civil Lord informed the House yesterday, the present situation in the shipbuilding industry is that, while there was a marked decline in new orders for merchant ships last year, the accumulation of orders over the previous three years represents broadly work for the next two or three years, though some of the smaller yards will shortly need further orders to keep their building berths fully occupied. There is therefore, no immediate risk of serious unemployment in the industry; in fact total employment increased in 1953, but the situation will continue to be carefully watched, and needs watching.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the various authorities in the shipbuilding industry have expressed fears at the paucity of the orders which are coming in for next year? Would not it be better if the Government adopted a more forthcoming policy with regard to foreign orders, to prevent them going to European shipbuilding yards instead of to British yards?

I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that we certainly do adopt a forthcoming attitude towards foreign nations, including Soviet Russia. I am watching very carefully the position as it affects the small yards. With regard to the shipbuilding position in general, I refer the hon. and learned Gentleman to the speech of his right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) either yesterday or today—I forget which.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the present allocation of steel plate to each of the Aberdeen shipbuilding firms.

As announced by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply on 5th May, 1953, statutory control of the distribution of iron and steel, with the exception of tinplate, was terminated on 6th May, 1953, and allocations of steel other than tinplate then ceased. The voluntary distribution scheme for steel plate, announced by my right hon. Friend on 20th April, 1953, continues to operate.

Are these allocations of steel plate likely to be maintained in the current year? Also, may I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on not becoming confused by my putting the wrong supplementary on Question No. 1?

After our long sitting yesterday, I particularly welcome the hon. and learned Member's congratulations. It is difficult to answer the question, but supplies are expected to be greater in 1954 than they were in 1953.

May we take it from my right hon. Friend's original reply that the steel supplies position is not in any way hindering the shipbuilding programme?

I am afraid that I cannot give that assurance. I am afraid that supplies still play a part in slackening the pace, but I have just said to the hon. and learned Member that I hope very much, in fact I am sure, that supplies this year will show an improvement on those of last year.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what part the use of the aqualung equipment has in naval undersea warfare training; and whether he is satisfied that this type of equipment, as opposed to oxygen-type equipment, is receiving adequate attention.

This equipment is under trial; its possible use will receive full consideration.

Does the right hon. Gentleman have it in mind that, as he said in his speech yesterday, the Navy is depending more and more on National Service men, and that two years is quite insufficient for the training of men in this type of submarine activity? Will he bear in mind the need for giving both types of equipment adequate attention in the training programme?

Yes, I certainly will. The equipment is now undergoing naval trials in the Mediterranean. Until I know the result of the trials it is a little difficult to talk about the future, but I will certainly give the matter full consideration.

Is the aqualung equipment as satisfactory as the oxygen type from the point of view of the health of the seamen?

I am afraid I cannot answer that question until I receive the report of the trials in the Mediterranean. I watched the oxygen process at work upon the person of the Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean when I was out there last September. I have seen it at work, but until I have had the report of the trials I cannot say more about it.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will look into the question of placing at the disposal of reputable clubs, facilities for the instruction of non-naval persons in the use of the aqualung.

Yes, Sir. I will certainly look into the question.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that such clubs as the British Sub-Aqua Club that are offering facilities to the public in rather difficult circumstances would appreciate such assistance, and that there is at least one Member on each side of the House who is a member of the club?

I will certainly bear that important fact in mind, but I would again point out that until I receive the results of the trials in the Mediterranean it is difficult to train other people.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what facilities his Department has granted, with or without the collaboration of the French Ministre de la Marine, to the British Broadcasting Corporation and M. Cousteau for the taking of a submarine film for television purposes.

No such facilities have been requested, though the British Broadcasting Corporation has frequently been given use of Admiralty copyright underwater films. I should, of course, be glad to consider whether facilities could be provided if a request were made.

While not in any way wishing to deprecate the initiative or the activities of M. Cousteau, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it would not be a good thing for him to take an active interest in this type of work and to see whether this proposed expedition to the Aegean should not receive the Navy's consideration.

The Admiralty is very interested in this question, and I will consider the hon. Member's suggestion.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty which of Her Majesty's ships will make ceremonial visits to the Port of Londonderry this year; and if he will give details of such visits as have already been arranged.

I can only refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by my hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary on 3rd March to a similar Question from the hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower). I will let him have the information he requires as soon as it is available.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the estimated cost of the latest type of submarine.

I regret that it would not be in the public interest to give this information.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in America the price of the latest submarine is given as £18 million? Is it out of consideration for the taxpayers or for security interests that the right hon. Gentleman is not telling the cost of his new submarine?

It is for various reasons, one of which is that I see no reason to give prior information to other countries that may be interested in it. As the hon. Gentleman knows full well, the estimated costs the Admiralty never gives. If a vessel is accepted for service then its cost is published in the Navy Estimates, and the hon. Gentleman and I can discuss it in the ensuing debate on those Estimates.

In view of my right hon. Friend's remarks yesterday regarding propulsion of the new submarine by hydrogen peroxide, will he re-christen the first of this class H.M.S "Blondie"?

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether, with a view to helping travellers, he will arrange for main post offices and those at airports to sell unstamped air letter forms.

The Post Office does not sell unstamped stationery, and I have already sent to my hon. Friend a list of firms from which unstamped United Kingdom air letter forms can be obtained. If, as I believe, he is also referring to unstamped air letter forms for posting at post offices or at aerodromes abroad, a United Kingdom air letter would not normally be valid.

Is my hon. Friend aware that such unstamped air letters are available in other countries, including our own Colonial Territories? Does he not regard it as illogical that one can use Forces air letter forms and not be able to buy proper air letter forms in our own post offices?

The Post Office does not want to go into the stationery business. I think we have quite enough to look after.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he will examine the possibility of charging a higher rate for betting telegrams than for ordinary business or personal telegrams.

No, Sir. It is not possible to discriminate reasonably between one type of business message and another.

If it is possible to discriminate between different classes of telegrams—greetings or priority or Press —why could there not be a special surcharge for betting telegrams? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, although many of us usually place our few small bets by telephone rather than by telegram, none the less any decent gambling man would gladly pay a surcharge of 5s. or more for each telegram, if that would be the means of saving some unfortunate bereaved family from being overcharged?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is over-optimistic. All that would happen would be that betting telegrams would then be sent in code.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the bookmakers regard him as the man who stabbed them in the back, and does he realise that he is regarded by the bookmakers as a traitor to his class?

I have never been a favourite of the "bookies" so I regard that criticism with complete equanimity.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General, in view of the increased charge for telegrams, if he will consider providing a code by which conventional or familiar messages can be sent at a lower rate, as with cables, by the employment of three or four code letters.

No, Sir. The use of such a code would not reduce costs, because any saving on transmission costs would be offset by the cost of decoding messages at the receiving office. Delivery costs, which constitute 45 per cent, of the cost of handling inland telegrams, would be unaffected.

Can the hon. Gentleman say why it is, when code is used for cable purposes, obviously with some advantage, financial and otherwise, the same principle cannot operate with profit in the case of conventional and family messages?

There is nothing to stop people from using private codes if they want to do so, but the cost of an external telegram is, of course, greater than the cost of an internal one.

Is it not clear from the Minister's reply to this and other Questions that what he ought to reconsider is the unsocial decision to put another 100 per cent, increase on telegraph charges?

I am painfully aware of the fact that my announcement on this subject last week was not popular.

Will the Minister take into consideration the great advantages that would accrue to both business interests and senders of various kinds of telegrams if we restored the late collection of ordinary mail in the big cities?

That would cost a vast sum of money, and is a matter which I could not possibly discuss in answer to a Question.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he is aware that during the last eight years there has been a 50 per cent, decline in the number of telegrams sent; and whether, since the increased charges have meant a diminishing return to the Post Office revenues, he will now reduce the charge for telegrams.

No, Sir. There is no doubt whatever that a reduction in charge would increase the loss.

Is the Minister aware that he has not attempted to answer the point of my Question, which is that there is already a 50 per cent, fall in the number of telegrams and that if this rise in charges continues obviously the service will have to be abolished eventually, as nobody will be able to use it?

That is not the view of the Government. We expected a falling off in the service every year and that has continued since the war.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he will publish in HANSARD the papers, documents and minutes of the Post Office Advisory Council, showing where that council had been consulted and agreed to the recently announced increases in the price of telegrams.

On a point of order. I notice that the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis) is asking in this Question for the publication in HANSARD of all the documents and minutes of a certain Council. As you, Mr. Speaker, are responsible to this House for what appears in HANSARD, do you not think that it is an abuse of this House to ask for such voluminous documents to be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT?

I cannot deal with that point until I hear the answer to Question No. 27.

Am I not right in saying that if the Clerks of the Table have accepted the Question it is, therefore, in order?

I think we ought to hear the answer.

The answer to the Question is, "No, Sir."

Will the Minister explain why he cannot adopt the suggestion in the Question? Perhaps then we shall have an answer to the point raised last week and we shall know whether the Minister was right or one of my hon. Friends was right.

As far as I know, there is no answer relating to last week, because the minutes to which reference has been made have not been roneoed and have not been distributed.

May I ask you now, Mr. Speaker, whether in your opinion it is not an abuse of the procedure of this House to ask for the publication of such voluminous documents, especially as the OFFICIAL REPORT is published under your authority?

Further to that point. I have no knowledge—and I do not know that the hon. and gallant Member for South Angus (Captain Duncan) has either—of how voluminous the correspondence may be, but in view of the fact that when the Assistant Postmaster-General made his announcement last week, and in the course of exchanges which took place on it, he did purport to refer to and to report to the House an actual decision of the Advisory Council, would not that cure any defect such as that which the hon. and gallant Member for South Angus contemplated in his point of order?

As the answer to the Question was in the negative, these matters still remain in the hypothetical stage. Had it been an affirmative answer I might have had to consider the subject more carefully.

Further to that point of order. Surely, we axe entitled to know whether an hon. Member is able to put a Question requesting information which he feels that the House or he himself is entitled to have without any hon. Member, who may or may not know whether it involves a voluminous document, raising a point of order. Surely if the Table accepts the Question, it is in order.

There is nothing wrong with the Question. The only point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for South Angus (Captain Duncan) was whether it would be proper to permit publication of a voluminous document in the OFFICIAL REPORT. That is quite a different matter, and it does not arise now as the answer to the Question is in the negative.

Further to that point of order. This is most interesting. You have ruled, Mr Speaker, that the hon. and gallant Member for South Angus (Captain Duncan) was in order in raising this point. Do I take it that when any Minister indicates that he will have something printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT we shall be in order in asking whether it is voluminous or not before it is printed?

That again is purely hypothetical. Most statements and answers published in the OFFICIAL REPORT are very brief, and are for the convenience of hon. Members.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General to what extent the increased cost of telegrams can be attributed to increased expenditure due to the defence programme.

Not at all.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General approximately how many telegrams are sent each year, by wholesalers and others, in connection with landings and distribution of fish.

Rather under two million a year.

Does that mean that the extra charge will cost the industry something like £200,000 a year more, and, coming on top of other increases in costs. extra freight charges and so on, will not this tend to promote a not insignificant increase in the price of this important food?

I am afraid that it will cost more but I cannot see any conceivable reason why the fish trade or any other trade should be subsidised by other users of the Post Office.

As this will fall heavily on the Grimsby Fish Merchants' Association, who calculate that it will cost £150,000 a year extra, will my hon. Friend look at this matter again, if representations are sent to him from the industry?

I cannot make any promise to look at this particular industry on its own account, unless I destroy the whole value of raising the telegram charges.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether, prior to the journey, special staff instructions were issued for safeguarding the packages of high value, recently stolen in transit, to jewellery firms in Regent Street, W.1.

There are standing instructions for drivers of vans on services of this kind: the driver of this particular van is in custody.

Will the Minister say whether an ordinary van was used for this journey or whether a special service van was ordered and used, when it was known that valuable jewellery was involved?

These were ordinary registered packets and not packages of high value.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what representations he has received regarding the quality of the British Broadcasting Corporation's radio reception in West Cornwall; and whether he will make a statement.

Representations have been made recently by a number of hon. Members, and by local authorities and others. Reception of the Home Service in the Redruth area was improved last October, when a low-power transmitter opened there. Elsewhere in West Cornwall improved reception depends on the provision of V.H.F. sound broadcasting, but I am afraid it is too early to say when such a service can be provided there.

Will the Assistant Postmaster-General bear in mind that although Penryn in my constituency is only about seven miles from the Redruth transmitter, the reception is very poor indeed, and that the clerk to the West Penwith Rural District Council, writing officially, states that the conditions in West Cornwall are appalling? Will he give an undertaking that V.H.F. will be introduced before either commercial television or alternative television in any other part of the country?

Very high frequency and commercial television have nothing whatever to do with each other. I am well aware that in parts of Cornwall, as in other parts of the country, sound reception is very poor, and that the only remedy is the introduction of V.H.F.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he is aware that the wavelength of 434 metres is of no use in the Morpeth area, and that when it was announced on 27th February, 1954, at 9.15 p.m. that those who wish to listen to "Saturday Night Theatre" should tune in to the above mentioned wavelength instead of 261 metres, inconvenience was caused to those listeners who can only rely on 261 metres for any kind of a reception; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.

This change of wavelength was made by the B.B.C. at the last moment, and they regret the inconvenience which may have been caused to listeners in North-East England. The normal wavelength of 261 metres was used for a substitute programme which, I understand, was a boxing match of particular interest to Northern Ireland.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I put this Question down on account of the widespread dissatisfaction in the North of England at the abrupt changing of this programme on the night of 27th February, switching the broadcast of the Saturday night play to 434 metres from 261 metres, which meant that the people in the North-East were deprived of their Saturday night play, to which they look forward as one of the B.B.C.'s popular programmes? As there are 1,636,248 sound licences in the North-East, it is safe to assume that about five million people were disappointed. How long is this to go on? How long have we got to be tied up to Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland tied up to us, so that we lose our plays?

This change is not made by the Post Office but by the B.B.C. on its own volition. If it occurs frequently and not as an isolated occurrence, then I think something will have to be done about it.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General why the official cards asking for the renewal of wireless and television licences and giving the manner in which cheques or postal orders should be made payable contain no reference to the amount to be paid for the licence.

The amount was left off deliberately last year because of the large numbers of cards involved and the possibility of an increased licence charge this year. Next year the figure will be reintroduced.

Does not the Minister realise that it is a silly thing to send out a demand without putting in the amount which he is demanding, so that people will know how much they are to pay?

I said that I would correct that next year. It would have been much sillier to send out a lot of old licence cards with £2 on them and then have to alter that to £3.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General how many wireless and television licences were issued in Edinburgh and Leith during 1953.

For the Edinburgh head office district, which includes Leith, the figures were about 136,000 for sound reception only and about 17,500 for sound and television.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one-third out of each of these licences is paid to the Performing Rights Society, which now receives an annual payment of over £700,000 from the B.B.C., and would he agree to look into the matter?

That is raising a Question entirely different from the original one. I think that the hon. Gentleman must put it down on the Order Paper if he would like me to give an answer to it.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether, in view of the increase of the television licence fee to £3, he will arrange for payment to be made half-yearly.

No, Sir. The cost would be too great. We are, however, examining the possibility of introducing a special savings stamp card.

Will the Assistant Postmaster-General give further consideration to this matter? There are very large numbers of people, including elderly people and those on pensions, who will find it very difficult indeed to pay £3 in one sum; and will he, therefore, give sympathetic consideration to the idea of a savings card or payments by instalments?

That is what I have promised to do. I would, however, suggest to the hon. Gentleman that if people can afford to spend £60 or more on a television set they can save £3 for a licence in one year.

That is grossly unfair. It is a well-known fact that many television sets are bought by instalments, and if, in addition to those instalments, the purchasers must pay £3 in one sum, it is going to make it very difficult for them to maintain their payments.

As I have said, we are considering the possibility of having a special savings card, but I confess that I cannot feel much sympathy for people who can afford £60 or more for a television set.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that many people now have hired television and pay weekly for it? Surely in cases of this kind it might be possible to arrange for them to pay for their licences in two half-yearly instalments? That means only one notification, and I should have thought that this was a scheme to be looked at now.

We cannot possibly make these licences payable by half-yearly instalments. The extra pressure on the Post Office and on the counters is now so great that that would lead to a complete upheaval. I have promised that I will look into the possibility of a savings card.

In view of the unsatisfactory attitude of the Assistant Postmaster-General, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Would it be too late now, Mr. Speaker, for me to give notice that, on account of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply to my Question, No. 14, I wish to raise the matter on the Adjournment?

I will receive the hon. Member's notice.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General why it is assumed that the television licence revenue must cover Post Office costs for dealing with interference; and if he will examine the possibility of recovering some part of these costs from undertakings causing the interference.

As the hon. Member probably knows, the costs in question are the costs of tracing the causes of interference—not the costs of effecting cures. This is part of the process of ensuring good reception of the television service and, in the Government's view, is proper to be borne by television viewers in general.

Can the Assistant Postmaster-General say whether in most of these cases, when the cause is traced, it is something which the firms in question, the electricity authority or whoever it is, could have dealt with themselves beforehand, or are they interfering wilfully, as it were?

They could have dealt with it, I think, if they had known the reasons for it. We find that in the vast majority of cases when the cause of interference is traced there is not much difficulty in dealing with it.

Will the Assistant Postmaster-General expedite the laying before this House of regulations under the Wireless Telegraphy Act to deal with this problem?

I hope that we shall be able to lay them before the House before very long.

Is not one of the greatest causes of interference old motor vehicles which do not come under present regulations, and which both he and the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Hobson) have consistently refused to deal with?

We have not consistently refused to deal with them. The only way in which they can be dealt with effectively is by employing a vast body of inspectors, and that we do not propose to do.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what steps he has taken to assure himself that the land which the British Broadcasting Corporation proposes to acquire for a television station on North Hessary Tor in the Dartmoor National Park is free from ancient common rights.

This is a matter not for me but for the B.B.C., which is, I understand, at present looking further into the legal position.

Will the Assistant Postmaster-General bear in mind that we have no desire to hinder the provision of this station but that it is felt that ancient common rights such as these, that have existed for a thousand years, should be adequately protected or properly extinguished by due process of law? Will he also remind the B.B.C. that as late as 1882 the Duchy of Cornwall said:

"The soil of the commons of Devon is claimed to belong to the Duchy equally with the soil of the Forest."?

That is a matter into which the B.B.C. is now looking.

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether it will be possible to provide a temporary television service for Cornwall in time for the broadcast of Her Majesty's return from overseas.

No, Sir. I think this must wait until the television station which the B.B.C. propose to erect on North Hessary Tor is opened.

Is my hon. Friend not aware that the people of Cornwall were very disappointed not to have the opportunity of viewing the Coronation? Will he use his influence to do everything he can to expedite the provision of a service at the earliest possible moment?

I do not think that there will be any avoidable delay in starting the station at North Hessary Tor.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that very large sums of money were spent by the B.B.C. in broadcasting the Coronation ceremony to the Continent, whilst Cornwall was deprived of the opportunity of viewing it? Will he ask the B.B.C. to consider the matter, because I understand that a very small sum would be involved in granting this concession?

It is not correct to say that a small sum is involved. The B.B.C. is very heavily pressed now in providing its new stations, and I can hold out no hope whatever of a temporary station to broadcast the Queen's return.

Arising out of my hon. Friend's first reply, can he say whether the transmitter in the Isle of Wight will be ready in time for Her Majesty's return so that the inhabitants of Portsmouth, Southampton and the hardy islanders will be able to share in this great event?

That question is not on the Order Paper, but it may comfort my hon. Friend to know that there is not likely to be any delay.

asked the Under secretary of State for Air whether he is satisfied with the heating arrangements in Royal Air Force camps.

Yes, Sir, in general.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the criticism that has been made by the United States General Wray of the heating systems in our camps, and is lie willing to make any statement about it?

I have seen that statement. I think we ought to bear two points in mind when we consider this matter. First, American customs with regard to heating are rather different. Some of us think that they warm their rooms rather too much. Second, most of the camps that the Americans have taken over in this country were war-time stations, and we ourselves would not regard the heating provided there as satisfactory for the Royal Air Force in peace-time.

May I think my hon. Friend for the warmth of his reply?

asked the Under secretary of State for Air which airfields not at present in use in Northampton shire he proposes to retain and which to hand back, and when.

There are seven airfields in Northamptonshire under Air Ministry control but not in current use by the Royal Air Force. Of these, four— Chelveston, Chipping Warden, Harrington and Polebrook—are being kept against future Royal Air Force requirements and three—Desborough, Peterborough and Spanhoe—will shortly be transferred to the Ministry of Agriculture. In addition, we expect later this year to give up using Grafton Underwood, and we shall then be able to derequisition it.

Cannot the Undersecretary be a little more hopeful about Harrington, which has been unoccupied and disused ever since the end of the war, as I believe all these airfields have?

Harrington is being held in reserve as a possible explosives store.

asked the Undersecretary of State for Air what discrimination is exercised in the training by the Royal Air Force of ex-Luftwaffe pilots for Lufthansa duties; if he is aware that one of the men concerned has served a term of imprisonment for espionage; and why such a person has been accepted for this training

The Royal Air Force is not training any of these pilots.

If the Minister has no connection with the training of these pilots, can he say by whom they are being trained?

By a civilian company.

Is the civilian company in contact with any Government Department?

With the Foreign Office.

Can the hon. Gentleman explain, in view of his answer—which hon. Members naturally accept—why statements appeared in several newspapers to the contrary effect? Can nothing be done about this?

I can quite appreciate that there may have been misunderstandings, but I can only reaffirm what I said, that the Royal Air Force has nothing to do with this training, and I must ask hon. Members to refer Questions on this subject to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.

Will not the Minister take steps to assure himself that none of those airmen who destroyed so much of Southampton in the war are being trained near Southampton?

That has nothing to do with me.

May I repeat the question which I put last week or the week before? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a German pilot who was taught to fly at Brooklands airfield came back during the war, bombed Vickers aircraft factory and killed 40 people in the mess during lunch-time, and was picked up later at Virginia Water, and that another German pilot who was trained at Reading came back during the war and bombed the Miles aircraft factory, and he also bailed out? Is it not time that the Government took this matter rather more seriously?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is not very helpful to suggest that the Air Ministry has nothing to do with the training of these pilots and later to admit that it is training them in collaboration with the Foreign Office.

I did not admit that we were training them in collaboration with the Foreign Office. I meant that any Questions about this training should be addressed to the Foreign Secretary and not to me.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air (1) why the parents of Pilot Officer John David Pell, who was killed in the crash of the Valetta transport aeroplane on 6th January have not been given any official details of the cause of the crash, and have been told that the evidence given at the Royal Air Force court of inquiry and the findings of the court are confidential;

(2) concerning the Valetta aircraft which crashed at Tom's Hill, Aldbury, on 6th January, killing 15 officers and other ranks returning from a Rugby football match, how many extra passengers were taken on for the return flight; what examination there was of the icing of the wings after the aeroplane had been standing in the open for five hours: what steps were taken to clear the wings of snow; in what weather conditions it took off; how many of the crew played in the match; and if he will compensate the widows and parents.

The Air Ministry's inquiries into this accident have only recently been completed. I am circulating a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT which sets out the circumstances and covers the detailed points raised by the hon. Member. Similar information will be sent to relatives within the next few days.

Compensation as such is not payable when members of the Royal Air Force lose their lives during their service. Gratuities under the Forces Family Pensions Scheme have, however, been paid by the Air Ministry to the widows of the two married men among the casualties. In addition, pensions may be payable, but that is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance.

The proceedings and findings of a court of inquiry are privileged documents, and it would be contrary to longstanding custom to publish them.

I should like to take this opportunity of expressing the sympathy of the Air Council with the relatives of those who lost their lives in this unfortunate accident.

I acknowledge the expressions of sympathy which the Minister has given, but is it not clear that if there has been negligence or a breach of the Regulations in this case the parents and others concerned are entitled to compensation? May I also ask why the proceedings are to be kept confidential, as against the interested parties, and whether the hon. Gentleman will state whether the meteorological report was considered at the time this aircraft took. off?

There is no evidence whatever of negligence, as I think the hon. Member will be satisfied when he reads the statement which I am circulating. If he is not satisfied, perhaps he will put down a Question on that point next week. With regard to his second point, the reason we do not publish the proceedings of courts of 'inquiry is that the foreknowledge that 'they might be published would impose a restraint both upon the court and upon witnesses giving evidence to it. I have told the hon. Member that the relatives will get a detailed and factual account, so far as we can give it to them, in the course of the next few days. Following is the statement:

On 6th January, 1954, a Valetta aircraft was authorised to perform a pilot and navigation exercise and at the same time to convey a rugby team from Thorney Island to Boving-don and back. The outward journey with 16 people on board was uneventful. For the return flight an extra passenger was taken aboard. Although there are only 16 seats in this type of Valetta, there is an adequate takeoff and landing position for the seventeenth passenger and the addition of one extra passenger would not have brought the all-up weight of the aircraft beyond the maximum permissible for take-off. The pilot of the aircraft had not played in the match, although the other three members of the crew had.

The routine examination of the aircraft before take-off is the responsibility of the pilot, and it is not known whether steps were taken to clear the wings of snow. Since, however, the aircraft took off normally and the ground temperature was not below freezing point, it is clear that the wings were not iced up. The aircraft took off at 5.16 p.m. with visibility of about 1,200 yards in slight snow. There was a north-easterly wind blowing at about 12 knots. It is considered that the weather conditions at the time of take-off had no bearing on the cause of the crash.

The Valetta was last seen climbing at about 400 feet with a gentle turn to port. A few minutes later it struck a tree and crashed on Tom's Hill, Aldbury. It has not been possible to establish the cause of the accident, and it can only be assumed that the pilot was trying to fly within sight of the ground, in conditions of poor visibility, and that in doing so he crashed into the hill.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will appoint a committee to make a comprehensive survey of the canals and inland waterways of Great Britain and to make recommendations for their more effective utilisation in the interests of the national economy and of public safety.

I will discuss the question of such a survey with the British Transport Commission.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that statement, but will he treat the matter as one of urgency, in view of the fact that the roads are becoming increasingly congested with heavy goods traffic, much of which could be more economically carried on the canals if they were suitably maintained?

Certainly.

When the Minister institutes this survey will he keep in mind the question of amenities and the health of communities in the vicinity of these canals? In Scotland there have been some complaints about the stagnation of these canals becoming a nuisance and a disturbance to the health of the adjacent communities.

I certainly shall. In fairness to the British Transport Commission, I must point out that it is entirely concerned with transport considerations, and in fairness to myself I must further point out that it was the right hon. Gentleman's own Government which put these canals under the control of the Transport Commission.

Will the Minister direct the attention of the British Transport Commission particularly to the urgent question of the use of derelict canals, which is a very distressing problem?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if, in view of the recent amendments to existing regulations made by him, he will now consider making legal the use of amber cats-eye reflectors on the pedals of bicycles.

Pedal reflectors are legal provided they do not reflect a red light to the front or other than a red light to the rear. I should be glad if cyclists would, within these limits, try them out. Amber lights, however, might well mislead motorists.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the report of actual road tests made of these pedal reflectors by the chief constable of Rochdale shows them to be highly effective? Would not he also agree that road safety at night would be greatly increased by the use of these pedals, and also that it is quite impossible to have any pedal showing a red light to the rear and a white light in front?

Very great dangers are involved in trying to make this type of pedal compulsory. The danger about an amber light is the difficulty of telling whether the cyclist is coming or going, but I am quite prepared to discuss the matter with my bon. and gallant Friend.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what progress has been made with the proposals put forward at the meeting attended by his divisional road engineer and the local authorities concerned in July, 1952, to encourage drivers of heavy vehicles to use the Barnet by-pass instead of the road through Whetstone, and to prevent the parking of heavy lorries in Whetstone at night.

I am sorry that little progress has been made with this difficult problem. As the Finchley Borough Council was informed on the 27th August, 1952, the only practical solution seems to be the provision of sufficient café facilities on the Barnet bypass to attract lorry drivers to that route. This is a matter for the local authorities and interests concerned.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what information he has to show in how many of the road accidents in the United Kingdom, in each of the last five years, in which children were involved, the child was running at the time of the accident.

I regret that I cannot supply the hon. Member with the precise information that he requires, but he will find in "Road Accidents, 1951," and "Road Accidents, 1952"—Tables 30 and 32—a great deal of detailed information about accidents to children.

Would the Minister agree that when children run across the road there is a greater likelihood of an accident than if they walk very slowly across it? Is he aware of that fact, and does he think that sufficient emphasis is being given to it?

That is perfectly true. I would again commend to the House the wonderful achievement in Islington, where no child has been killed during the last two years, largely through local leadership and initiative.

May that not be because they teach the schoolchildren in Islington that it is wrong ever to run across the road?

Whatever they teach them, it is effective.

Is the Minister aware that the suggestion that it is fair game to shoot a bird on the wing is understating the obligations of the motorist, and that the motorist should expect to encounter, and be prepared to avoid, not only the impetuous child but the hesitant old lady?

In view of the suggestion that birds may be shot on the wing, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that every year a mother mallard, with her chicks, waddles so slowly across the roads in London that she is never hurt?

Order. If we had a Minister of Natural History, that might be an appropriate question for him.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many public Ministerial inquiries concerning speed-limit derestriction of a road were held in 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952 and 1953; and in how many of these cases in each of these years a speed limit was imposed or confirmed following upon such an inquiry.

As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he would extend this system of public inquiry to the London traffic area so that the public might make representations to the London Traffic Advisory Committee on derestriction of the speed limit?

I would point out to my hon. Friend what I am sure he knows, that there is a great danger in extending this restriction so far that ordinary, reasonable people think it unreasonable. Already 36 per cent, of our unclassified, 17 per cent, of our classified, and over 17 per cent, of our trunk roads are so restricted, and there is a limit beyond which prudence should not go.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the result of the first offer for sale of transport units by the Road Haulage Disposal Board.

The final figures for the first two lists are 432 units sold, representing 1,286 vehicles.

In view of the complete failure to find sufficient customers to make offers for these vehicles at anything near their market value, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance to the House that the vehicles which are now left over will not be given away?

Many of the premises are inactive, or have been inactive, and it will be necessary for the vehicles and the premises to be offered separately. I sympathise with hon. Gentlemen opposite in their dilemma: whether to attack me for selling the vehicles too slowly or for selling them too fast, without regard to their price.

Is it the case that the Minister is now making himself responsible for the sale—

indicated dissent.

In that case why did he say that? May I ask him whether the sale of these units by the British Transport Commission—not, of course, by himself—is living up to his expectations?

I think we had better wait and see how we get along. I cannot do better than accept the view of the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) that I have no status in the matter unless a dispute arises.

In that case, will the Minister give an undertaking that he will not listen to the representations made by the Road Haulage Association that he should accept the highest bid, even when only two or three tenders are put in?

The hon. Gentleman, who has already twice or three times postponed a Question on that point, may be luckier today.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the sums received to date reflect very adequately the arrangements made as between a willing buyer and a willing seller—[HON. MEMBERS: "NO."]—and surely that is the essence of the contract?

Since when was the Commission a willing seller of the road haulage undertaking?

May I ask the Minister on what he bases his estimate that 10,000 of these vehicles will have been sold by the end of April?

On every expectation—when I gave out my estimated programme, and I stick to the view—that we shall make rapid progress in this matter without great loss to the nation or an undue disturbance of the national transport system.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will introduce a regulation to make it an offence for vehicles to draw across to the right-hand side of the highway and park facing towards oncoming traffic.