asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that Royal Air Force personnel en route to the United Kingdom from units in the Near and Far East for demobilisation are being disembarked in the Canal Zone where they are being held up; what is the reason for this; and for what periods are they usually so delayed.

Members of the Royal Air Force serving in the Iraq and Aden Commands are brought by air to the Canal Zone on their way home for release so that they can join the regular trooping services which run from there. As a rule, these men are in the Canal Zone for less than a week, and I do not know of anyone's release being delayed on this account. I cannot trace any instance of airmen on the way home from the Far East, either by sea or by air, being disembarked in the Canal Zone.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Royal Air Force personnel are waiting for 14 days or even longer, and that when they see Army personnel going straight through it causes a great deal of feeling?

There is a special committee at headquarters of the Middle East to co-ordinate movements in this theatre. Everything possible is being done to cut down waiting time. As a rule airmen are there less than a week, but sometimes, when there is an air exercise on, as there is at the moment, Middle East transport aircraft have to be taken off internal scheduled services, and that does cause delay, sometimes up to three weeks.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air why the staff of his Department increased from 26,203 on 1st October, 1953, to 26,356 on 1st January, 1954; and what steps he is taking to reduce to a minimum the number of staff employed by his Department.

The increase was partly due to an improvement in recruitment, which enabled certain essential vacancies to be filled and partly to the replacement of airmen by civilians. As I told my hon. Friend last March, we exercise a strict control in these matters, and we are constantly adjusting the numbers of staff to the task in hand.

Is not the number of 26,000 civil servants in the Air Ministry fantastically high in relation to the number of R.A.F. personnel, which is to be reduced during the coming year, and especially high in relation to the number of aircraft in commission?

We have managed to meet a large increase of work caused by the expansion of the Royal Air Force with a comparatively small increase in staff. If my hon. Friend will refer to the White Papers which are issued quarterly and which show the staffs employed in Government Departments, he will see that the number of civil servants now employed at the Air Ministry is roughly the same as it was at the beginning of 1948. I think that is a record of which we need not be ashamed.

But was it not much too high in 1948?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if, in view of the public disquiet resulting from road accidents, he can yet state when the proposed legislation to improve road safety is to be introduced.

I am giving this problem urgent attention, but, as I indicated in answer to a Question by the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dodds) on 3rd February, the solution is not merely a question of legislation. A great deal can be done by administrative action, and I hope to be able to make a statement shortly about various measures which I have in mind.

Has the right hon. Gentleman every confidence that the reorganisation and administrative efforts will have the desired effect?

They ought to go some way towards having it.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is satisfied with the lighting of Zebra crossings during the hours of darkness.

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is aware of the difficulties presented to buses and private cars with long wheel-bases in negotiating the pointed corners of the traffic islands at Hyde Park Corner and of the disruption to oncoming traffic caused by large vehicles turning these sharp corners; and whether he will have alterations made in the shape of these traffic islands.

This is primarily the responsibility of the Westminster City Council, who are the highway authority, but we have consulted them, the police and the London Transport Executive and their reports do not bear out my hon. Friend's suggestion.

Could my hon. Friend possibly consider having consultations with his right hon. Friend the Minister, with the Home Secretary and the other interested parties, the Ministries and local authorities having at least one person or a group of people present, who are responsible for all the appalling traffic conditions which occur every day in London and which show no sign whatever of improvement.

That obviously goes far beyond the scope of the Question, which refers to Hyde Park Corner.

My hon. Friend introduced the fact that it was not a matter for his decision. I am asking whether he will consider consulting his right hon. Friends so that, when an hon. Member asks a Question about London traffic, he can get a direct answer from one particular Minister, which is quite impossible at the moment.

I was giving a perfectly direct answer about Hyde Park Corner, for which the Westminster City Council is the highway authority. We have consulted the council and it does not consider that my hon. Friend's suggestion is warranted.

Is the Minister aware that some tremendously long lorries pass Hyde Park Corner and cause damage and inconvenience? I pass Hyde Park Corner every day of my life to come here and I am very often held up because of those lorries.

I go past that Corner every morning on my way to the Ministry of Transport and also observe these things. The sharpest turn is from Knightsbridge into Grosvenor Place, on the east side of the Wellington Monument. The carriageway there is 60 feet wide, and there is no difficulty whatsoever in all the traffic turning to the right there.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what categories of vehicles are allowed to park or wait on the "No Parking" side of unilateral parking streets.

Parking on that side is in general prohibited. Vehicles may, however, pick up and set down passengers and, outside the inner area of London, may load and unload goods, but this is prohibited in the 31 streets in the Metropolitan Police District in which unilateral waiting is in force.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he has now considered the Report on Sir Bruce White's proposals for a road bridge over the Forth; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. I have now received the Report of the Panel I set up to inquire into Sir Bruce White's proposal. The Panel's finding, with which I agree, is that it is—in their own words—"difficult to see any sufficient justification for the project." I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a summary of its conclusions, and I am arranging for two copies of the full Report to be placed in the Library of the House. I should like to thank the members of the Panel for their comprehensive and authoritative Report. I have told the Transport Commission that the way is now clear for it to proceed with the improvements of the ferry service at Queensferry, and I have given it a formal indemnity to cover the risk of capital loss if and when a road bridge is built.

Now that the possibility of Sir Bruce White's scheme has been finally ruled out, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he can name a date by which the improvements he has instructed the Transport Commission to carry on with will make themselves felt in the ferry service?

Now that we are at last able to get on with realities, I hope that we shall soon see good results.

Is the Minister aware that the people of Scotland will be looking for some suggestion that they can proceed to concentrate on the question of the new Forth Road Bridge, instead of being diverted by any other kind of project? Will he see that that question will be kept in mind, as well as the ferry?

This does not alter our attitude with regard to the road bridge, which is by no means ruled out. One of the great difficulties has been to get the Commission to concentrate on improvements of the ferry service in order to see that it does not turn out to be abortive expenditure. I think that I have, in my answer, fully covered that reasonable fear in the minds of the Commission.

Would the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to allow interested Members to have copies of the Panel's Report? Does he realise that the people in the developing areas will view the results of the Report with no great surprise but with terrible disappointment?

I shall certainly give a copy to the hon. Gentleman and to any other hon. Member who asks for one. It is a very elaborate Report, with many photographs, but I think I can safely say that anybody who wants to see it can see it personally as well as in the Library.

Following is the summary of the conclusions:

Conclusions of the Panel appointed by the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to examine and report on a scheme for the conversion of the Forth railway bridge into a combined road-rail bridge as proposed by Sir Bruce White.

( a ) It is possible to provide clearances for road and rail traffic allowing for a roadway 18 ft. wide between kerbs with a vertical clearance of 15 ft. 6 in. The railway clearance of 14 ft. 6 in. is sufficient to allow for future electrification.

( b ) In calculating the stresses in the members of the structure the railway loading used was the heaviest at present allowed on the bridge together with the new British Standard roadway loading Type HA for Highway Bridges which allows for a 9 ton wheel load. The wind load assumed was 37 lb. per sq. ft. in place of the 56 lb. per sq. ft. for which the existing bridge was designed.

( c ) The lightest form of roadway deck suitable for the Forth Bridge consists of a stiffened high tensile steel plate with the road wearing surface, in the form of a ½ in. thick coating of latex rubber compound, laid directly on it. This would weigh, on the suspended spans 33½ lb. per sq. ft. and on the cantilever arms 32 lb. per sq. ft.

( d ) The design of new steelwork to carry a roadway deck in addition to the railway across the approach spans presents no special problems.

The lower panels of all the lateral sway bracing between the tubular struts throughout the anchor and cantilever arms must be removed and replaced in a different form to provide clearance for the road.

New longitudinal girders would replace the existing internal viaduct on the anchor and cantilever arms.

In the suspended spans the roadway deck would be added independently of the railway deck which should not be replaced by girders and plating in light alloy. A portal frame arrangement at the ends of these spans would replace the existing sway bracing. The top lateral system of bracing should not be removed.

( e ) The steel ballast boxes containing cast iron blocks must be altered to provide clearance for the roadway. The masonry arches and some of the ballast must be removed and after alteration the ballast boxes must be increased in height to take the additional weight of ballast required.

( f ) Sir Bruce White advocated the widespread use of aluminium structural alloy so as to save weight. Unfortunately this material is subject to electro-chemical attack when in contact with steel. It would be quite impracticable, in the complex joints between new work and old, to give the protection necessary in so permanent a structure as the Forth Bridge. The Panel, therefore, does not recommend the use of aluminium alloy and, in its own designs, has substituted high tensile steel.

( g ) The additional weight of roadway deck, cross girders, bracing, etc., entailed in the proposed alterations would be approximately 0·40 tons per ft. in the suspended spans and from 0·09 to 0·50 tons per ft. in the anchor and cantilever arms.

( h ) A complete stress analysis of the suspended spans shows that certain members when subjected to full rail and road live load, were overstressed by as much as 18 per cent. The allowable stress was taken as that specified for new structures of mild steel. Such evidence as is available indicates that the quality of steel in the existing bridge can be regarded as satisfactory by modern standards but the possibility of loss of section by corrosion cannot be ruled out.

( i ) The stresses in these members of the suspended spans would appear to be critical in determining the feasibility of the Scheme. In a new structure this amount of overstressing under full load might be acceptable but it is a matter for further and fuller investigation whether it could be permitted in the members of the Forth Bridge.

( k ) Even if unacceptable overstressing of the members occurred under full rail and road live load, the bridge could still be used to carry both forms of traffic if some system of control, as advocated by Sir Bruce White, were adopted.

Automatic traffic lights could be operated by track circuit so that road traffic would be warned not to move on to a suspended span when it was occupied by trains on both tracks. A more reliable safeguard would be to leave the road traffic uncontrolled and to provide a railway signalling system which would make it impossible for trains to pass one another on a suspended span. Either arrangement would interfere to some extent with the flow of traffic.

( l ) Considerable attention was given to the questions of erection procedure and practicability. The proposed conversion is not impossible but the amount of work involved is such that a considerable interruption of railway traffic over a long period would be inevitable.

It is estimated that some 200 Sunday occupations of 10 hours each would be needed together with 60 to 100 long occupations of not less than 30 hours, which might be spread over a period of from five to seven years.

The conversion could, of course, be carried out more quickly and economically if complete possession of the bridge were obtained for a period of two or three years.

( m ) Sir Bruce White's estimate of the time of conversion is two years and the cost £3,000,000, but these estimates were not based on any programme of work or calculation of cost.

In the opinion of the Panel the cost of conversion would be far above this figure and might well amount to more than half the cost of a new bridge and there would be not much likelihood of any substantial saving in time of construction.

( n ) In view of these circumstances, including the comparatively poor facilities to be provided by the conversion and the inevitable interruptions to week-end railway traffic over a period of years during construction, the Panel finds it difficult to see any sufficient justification for the project.

J. F. BAKER.

GILBERT ROBERTS.

H. SHIRLEY SMITH.

2nd March, 1954.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation when construction will begin on the proposed new access road to St. Mawgan.

My right hon. Friend will give authority to begin construction of a section of this diversion road as soon as the order under the Requisitioned Land and War Works Act has been made, which I hope will be towards the end of July.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many experimental landings by helicopter have been made on the South Bank site since 1st January, 1953; when the last landing was made; and what is planned in regard to experiments in the near future.

All the landings that have been made on the South Bank site can be classed as experimental. There have been 11 such landings since 1st January, 1953, the last being made on the 8th October, 1953. No decisions have been taken involving further experimental landings in the near future.

Does that reply mean that there are no plans for experimental landings during the next few months? Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that the answers given to this type of Question are becoming more and more depressing while, on the other hand, the Belgians are much more optimistic and are introducing a helicopter service between London and Brussels? Could not we do the same?

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman thinks that the answers are becoming more and more depressing because the Questions are becoming more and more interesting as we go along. Further experimental landings will be made when it is clear that they can add to the knowledge and experience of helicopter operation.

Will the Minister bear in mind the very real anxiety of people living in the neighbourhood?

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean from the point of view of noise?

Yes.

My right hon. Friend is well aware of that.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is aware that residents living near the London Airport are still suffering from excessive noise from aircraft, especially at night; and what action he proposes to take.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Heston and Isle-worth (Mr. R. Harris) on 17th March.

Is the Minister aware that some residents say that there is more noise than ever and that it is going on for longer than it used to, especially at night? Because the reply is so unsatisfactory, I shall put down a further Question.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman has not seen a letter which was sent recently from the London Airport Consultative Committee to the Commandant of London Airport in which it is stated that the Committee has received no complaints about any recent increase in the noise at London Airport at night. It goes on to say that complaints have decreased of late and ends by giving the most welcome information that it believes that our Department is energetically pursuing the subject of the abatement of noise.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that people over the years have become accustomed to the noise of railway trains and engines?

I must say, in fairness to the people who live near the Airport, that it will take a long time before they become accustomed to and happy about the noise of jet aeroplanes.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, in view of the disposal by the British Overseas Airways Corporation of certain aircraft that were suitable for charter work only, he will now consult with them with a view to revising his policy in regard to participation of the corporation in charter operations.

No, Sir. I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on 22nd March.

Was not that answer somewhat dishonest, because did not the right hon. Gentleman—

Withdraw.

The hon. Member really should not impute a dishonest motive to another hon. Member of the House.

I withdraw the word "dishonest" and suggest that the answer was misleading, in that the right hon. Gentleman referred to the fact that B.O.A.C. had commercial freedom in this matter whereas they did not have commercial freedom, inasmuch as they were compelled to sell these aircraft because of an agreement entered into at the instigation of the Minister to the effect that they should not engage in trooping and charter work?

While I am always prepared to overlook any limitation in the hon. Member's vocabulary when it takes a rather offensive form, I must point out to him that this subject was dealt with at length a fortnight ago, and that, by a majority vote, the House supported it.

Will the Minister answer my question? Is it not a fact that B.O.A.C. would not have had to dispose of these aircraft had not the right hon. Gentleman instigated an agreement with them which required them to cease from engaging in charter work?

That, of course, is wholly untrue.

No.

Yes. The Corporations have to modernise their fleets and take the newest aeroplanes as they come along. Unless they do this, they will always have aeroplanes of less than up-to-date types of which they want to dispose. They cannot conceivably hold their new fleets and also their old fleets. If they have to dispose of their older aeroplanes, then they must sell them to people who are prepared to buy them.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what proposals have been submitted to him by British Overseas Airways Corporation for the disposal of aircraft other than for monetary payment.

I am at present considering proposals involving such a transaction, but until decisions have been taken I am not able to make any statement.

Is the Minister satisfied with the extraordinary policies he is forcing out of the Corporation by means of this tourniquet he has drawn around it? Can he tell the House what his attitude will be to a public corporation having a share-holding in a private company in return for these aircraft?

I have answered the Question on the Order Paper, and I have nothing to add to it.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many Hermes aircraft he has authorised the British Overseas Airways Corporation to sell.

B.O.A.C. are free to sell all their Hermes aircraft.

If the Minister is now able to consider this matter calmly, after his exchanges with my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies)—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—certainly—will he now tell the House that he is prepared to allow B.O.A.C. to exercise not only commercial judgment but unfettered commercial judgment by removing the restrictions which he has placed upon them?

I have nothing to add to the very long statement I made on this subject in the course of an attempt by the hon. Member to reduce my salary, which was decisively rejected by the House.

Will the Minister now confirm that if it were not for his policy B.O.A.C. would retain these aircraft in order to carry on a profitable business, instead of selling them at a loss?

That point has already been completely denied by the Chairman of the Corporation. If the Corporation are to be obliged to hold on to every old aircraft they will never buy any new ones, and it might then be all up with British aviation.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the latest available fatal accident rate for British airlines; and how it compares with the accident rate on British Railways and on the roads of this country.

The fatality rate on regular services of British airlines for the five-year period to 13th March, 1954, was 3·7 passengers killed per hundred million passenger-miles. The figure for British Railways for five years to 31st December, 1953, was ·35. I regret that comparative rates for road casualties are not available.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what advice his Department gave on the suitability of the Twin Pioneer for providing feeder services from improvised runways for Scottish cities with no conventional air service, during the course of his discussions with other Government Departments which led to the provision of a grant for the development of this aircraft.

None, specifically related to the subject of the question, but my right hon. Friend has consistently advised that an aircraft such as the Twin Pioneer, promising operations from very short grass or similar runways, would have extensive civil aviation uses beyond those possible with existing types.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this Question is intended to draw attention to the fact that Dundee is the only city in Scotland which still lacks modern air services? Will the Minister investigate the possibility of using these aircraft for temporary air services from Riverside Park, Dundee, pending the provision of a proper air service from Errol Airport?

I was not aware that that was behind the Question, but I shall now pay particular attention to that aspect. On the other hand, the decision as to where to run air services must rest with the operators concerned. But I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for elaborating his Question. I will look into it.

While the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) has an excellent case for Dundee, he is wrong in saying that it is the only city in Scotland which is concerned. The city of Perth is also very much concerned.

Is the Minister aware that there is some misunderstanding of the announcement regarding the use of the Twin Pioneer in Scotland? Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Twin Pioneer is to replace the D.H.17 for the Islands transport and provide a satisfactory substitute for those aeroplanes which, I am sorry to see, may soon not be used for that service?

If the right hon. Gentleman will put down a Question we shall do our best to answer it.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation in view of the official statement of which he is aware, made by the Australian Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation regarding the future of British air services in the Pacific, and in view of the fact that the future of British Overseas Airways Corporation is closely concerned with the changes announced, why no statement has been made by him.

It was agreed between Her Majesty's Governments in the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand, that there should be a simultaneous announcement of this most welcome agreement. Mr. Anthony, the Australian Postmaster-General and Minister for Civil Aviation, did not make a statement in Parliament. Mr. Macdonald, the New Zealand Minister in charge of Civil Aviation, has not so far as I know made a public statement. In all our three Commonwealth countries Press announcements were made on the same day (16th March). I will circulate a statement on this agreement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will the Minister answer two points arising out of that agreement? First, will he say whether B.O.A.C. will retain traffic rights in the Pacific area; and, secondly, if the British Corporation is now to operate over to San Francisco, and in view of the fact that the United States Government allow no pick-up rights over 6,000 miles of territory from New York to Hawaii, will there be any special financial adjustment between the Government and B.O.A.C.?

Before going into detail, it would be better if the hon. Gentleman would read the statement which I propose to put in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I assure him that, in the view of the Governments of the United Kingdom and of Australia and New Zealand, this will promote Empire air development. Qantas Empire Airways will operate services to the United States and Canada, connecting with B.O.A.C. Atlantic services to those countries. I would gladly discuss this matter in detail in the House at the first possible opportunity.

Following is the statement:

FUTURE OF PACIFIC AND TASMAN AIR SERVICES

Following a Civil Aviation Conference at Christchurch on the 14th and 15th October, 1953, decisions have been reached on realignment of air services in which the Governments of the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand are jointly interested. Under new arrangements Qantas Empire Airways and British Overseas Airways Corporation will continue in parallel partnership on the Kangaroo route. Qantas Empire Airways will operate services to the United States and Canada connecting with British Overseas Airways Corporation at San Francisco when B.O.A.C. extend their North Atlantic services to that point. Tasman Empire Airways will connect with these world routes at both Sydney and Nandi (Fiji) thus continuing in a different form the partnership in which the Governments have been associated for many years. Although passengers to and from New Zealand will have to change connection at Fiji, the new arrangement will provide two air services per week instead of one, as well as providing the public with improved facilities. The decisions are:

Recognising that Trans-Pacific and Trans-Tasman services will continue to be of special interest to all three Governments, appropriate machinery for special consultations will be provided to deal with questions of policy or other issues which cannot conveniently be resolved by airlines.

The Governments wish to record their deep sense of appreciation of the excellent service rendered by B.C.P.A. in operation of trans-Pacific services from New Zealand and Australia to North America and acknowledge the valuable services which the staff have rendered.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he can now announce the date when the proposed new Highway Code will be published; and when it will be brought before the House for consideration.

As I indicated to my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) on 17th March I intend to make the text available to hon. Members before the end of next month. As I wish to consider comments made by hon. Members I cannot at this stage give definite dates for formal presentation to the House or for publication.

Does the Minister intend to have a debate on the matter when the new Highway Code is published in view of its great importance both to this House and to the country as a whole?

I am in the hands of the usual channels in a matter of that kind, but it seems more profitable that I should address party meetings of both sides of the House, perhaps separately, and then talk to those who are really interested in an informal way about the form which the Code should take.

Does my right hon. Friend's reply mean that the copy which hon. Members will see will not be the final copy, but that there will be an opportunity for him to examine their suggestions?

That is so.

In connection with the Highway Code, has the right hon. Gentleman given, or will he give, consideration to the rule which operates in other countries and in parts of the Commonwealth of giving way to the car on the right of crossings, which seems to me to work very satisfactorily?

That is indeed a very important factor.

Are arrangements being made to prepare a Welsh version of the Highway Code?

I will look into that.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will grant the appeal of the Nottingham City Corporation against the decision of the East Midlands licensing authority who refused to permit the corporation to carry old-age pensioners at reduced rates on the city transport services along certain routes on grounds of competition with other transport undertakings which had previously been licensed to operate within the city; and if he will make a statement.

On a point of order. This Question raises a matter in which the Minister has a quasi-judicial discretion. It is not usual to put Questions on the Order Paper about how my right hon. Friend will decide these appeals, and I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if this Question is in order. I apologise for not giving you notice that I proposed to raise this point of order.

On the face of it, I think it is in order. I am prepared to hear the answer.

The answer is that no such appeal has been lodged with me.

When such an appeal is lodged with the Minister, will he give it his careful attention and support?

I think that would be a hypothetical question.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is aware of the complaints contained in the 1953 Report of the Central Transport Consultative Committee; and if he will ensure the fullest co-operation in future in view of the fact that this is the only protection afforded to transport users.

Yes, Sir; and as noted in paragraph 23 of that Report I intend to encourage fuller use of the services of the Consultative Committees.

In view of the fact that users seem to be ground between the upper and nether millstones, is my right hon. Friend aware how glad I am to hear his answer?

As the Minister has legislation before the House concerning the number of persons permitted to stand in buses, will he refer to the Central Transport Consultative Committee this question which previously he has refused to refer to it?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, or ought to know, rules for standing in buses can apply to buses out-with as well as within the British Transport Commission's authority. The Consultative Committee exists only to advise me on the carrying out by the Transport Commission of its obligations.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he has now completed his examination of the possibilities of bringing forward the dates for the compulsory exhibition of two rear lamps on motor vehicles not classed as new vehicles; and if he will make a statement.

I expect to make a full announcement regarding rear lamps-and reflectors in the very near future. The date at which I now propose that two rear lamps should become obligatory on existing vehicles, other than cycles, is 1st October, 1956.

Does that date apply both to commercial vehicles and private cars?

This is a rather complicated story, and if the hon. Gentleman will have a word with me afterwards I shall explain in detail the situation, upon which I hope to make a comprehensive statement within the next two or three weeks.

Surely the right hon. Gentleman must know whether this date applies to commercial vehicles as well as private cars? It is an elementary point which should be within his knowledge.

If the right hon. Gentleman will also do me the favour of listening to the story he will realise that there are certain agricultural vehicles which, as he will know, fall into one category, and other industrial vehicles which fall into another. A snap answer that might appear very bright might be very misleading.

I thought that a snap answer that might sound very bright but was not always reliable was a speciality of the right hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what representations he has received from the road haulage associations and other bodies in regard to the disposal of British Road Services; and what action he has taken upon them.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what answer he has given to the representations of the Road Haulage Association that where three or more bids are made for transport units the highest should be accepted.

On 22nd February, I met representatives of the Road Haulage Association, who gave me their general views on the sale of the Commission's road haulage assets. Subsequently the Association also conferred with the Disposal Board. It is for the Disposal Board, in consultation with the Commission to decide whether any action is required.

I thank the Minister for that reply, but may I ask whether he informed the Road Haulage Association that, under the Act, in no circumstances can he intervene as regards the prices at which vehicles or units are sold, unless there is a dispute between the Commission and the Disposal Board?

Yes, I did so, and also referred them to the public comments of the hon. Gentleman on that point.

Can the Minister say whether he has declined the representations of the Road Haulage Association that the highest of three bids should be accepted?

I have reminded them of the constitutional position which I have already outlined, and which they readily understood.

Then can the Minister tell us why the small road hauliers have been so slow in coming forward to purchase these units, when we spent so much Parliamentary time on giving them an opportunity to purchase them?

The hon. Member must have been very slow in reading the published lists. The last list shows that 86 per cent, of the assets offered have been sold.

Can the House be assured from that reply that in no circumstances will the Minister attempt to use any pressure at all to influence the Disposal Board to sell any of these vehicles at a price lower than their proper value?

Of course not.

As the word "dishonest" has been ruled out of order, I wonder if I could have your advice, Mr. Speaker, as to what term I should use to describe the last answer but one of the Minister, which is so inaccurate as to be misleading, if not dishonest?

I strongly deprecate all these suggestions.

May I ask for your guidance, Sir, on this point? I understand the disappointment of the Opposition at the way in which these sales are going, but I think that I am entitled to ask for your protection in that I have never, at any moment, gone beyond the constitutional lines laid down by the Act.

We are not debating the Act, which has been passed by Parliament. It is merely a matter of propriety of language. I do most strongly deprecate, as have my predecessors, any suggestions by an hon. Member from any quarter of the House that another hon. Member is actuated by motives which he does not avow.

Further to that point of order, may I ask what protection the House has, on a matter of fact, when a Minister gives an answer, which on this side is known to be untrue, in relation to the vehicles and the units put up for sale last time? Why do you not withdraw that—

Order. The word "untrue" is capable of two meanings—that it may not be accurate or that it may be deliberately untrue. It is the suggestion that it is deliberately untrue which no hon. Member—no matter where he sits—should make. If there is a difference of opinion as to what the facts are, that must be thrashed out in the ordinary manner of debate, but debate should be kept clean of all these aspersions.

May I ask the Minister if he will give us the facts about the percentage of lorries sold in the last units offered, including those offered with premises?

If the hon. Gentleman really wants to bring these facts still more to the public attention he should put down a Question. What I said—and repeat—was that of the units offered 86 per cent, had been sold.

That is a lie.

On a point of order. I distinctly heard the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) say, "That is a lie."

I did not hear the remark myself, but if it was said it ought to be withdrawn.

I did say that, and I withdraw it. I hope the Minister has the satisfaction of knowing that I withdraw it.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, in view of the representations made by the Road Haulage Association that the reserve price placed upon transport units is too high, what steps he is taking to ensure that the Disposal Board do not depart from the obligation laid upon them by Section 3 (7) of the Transport Act, 1953, that no tender shall be accepted unless the price is a reasonable one.

I am quite confident that in this as in all other respects the Disposal Board can be relied upon to observe the requirements of the Act.

Is the Minister aware that the last Press statement of the Road Haulage Disposal Board, a copy of which I now have, states that the units with premises:

"… will show very unsatisfactory results."

It also says:

"Out of 180 units offered, no tenders at all were received for 62 units …"

and that:

"… a first analysis shows that a high proportion will have to be rejected."

That is a reference to the tenders that were made. Will the Minister now answer the question why so many of the small road hauliers have been slow in coming forward, and will he please appreciate that quick answers with bright endings are not always accurate?

The hon. Gentleman overlooks the fact that the proportion of acceptances of units offered for sale is 86 per cent, of the decided cases. I recognise that vehicles offered with premises have not received the same public response. At the suggestion of both the Commission and the Disposal Board I have authorised separate sales of these premises, as I am entitled to do under the Act.

In view of what the Minister has now told the House, hon. Members will be fully aware that there is room for suspicion on this side. Will he now publish in the form of a White Paper, or in some other way, the text or a full résumé of the talks that he had with the Road Haulage Association on 23rd February?

In reply to the latter part of that question, I would no more think of publishing in a White Paper the text of my talks with a private organisation than I would think of publishing the text of my talks with the Trades Union Congress. In reply to the first part of the question, under the Act the Disposal Board are obliged to submit to me, and through me to Parliament, reports at not less than six-monthly intervals, so the whole story of the transaction will be clearly before Parliament, quite apart from the many interim Press statements which the Disposal Board issues from time to time.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that we on this side of the House have the utmost confidence both in his judgment and in his veracity?

As the Minister has frequently suggested that we on this side are disappointed at the progress of the sales, may I ask whether he is aware that we are not disappointed but disgusted at the disposal at a loss of these national assets?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will use his powers under Section 65 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, to ensure that particulars are sent to him in their annual report of the reasons why the Commissioners of the area concerned deemed it necessary to prohibit a coach taking parishioners of Ringwood to Winchester to see a missionary exhibition.

I have already obtained these particulars. As I have explained to my hon. and gallant Friend, the licensing authority for public service vehicles did not prohibit the journey but, after having had its attention drawn to the circumstances, gave a warning that, in its view, this would not comply with the law unless authorised under a road service licence.

May I ask my hon. Friend two questions? First, on what basis does he consider that a notice in a parish magazine constitutes an advertisement? Secondly, in regard to the reply he has given, can he say when he will introduce legislation to remove this anomaly?

The law upon this subject was interpreted by the Lord Chief Justice in the case of Poole v. Ibbotson. The legislation which deals with this point is Section 25 (1, b ), of the Road Transport Act, 1934. The journey must be made without previous advertisement to the public of the arrangements therefor. As regards the date of the introduction of legislation, I am not prepared to answer that question now.

May I ask my hon. Friend to answer the question under what judgment, in what case, has a notice in a parish magazine been deemed to be an advertisement?

I have mentioned the case in which the present Lord Chief Justice interpreted the law upon that subject. The view of the licensing authority was that the publication of an advertisement in a parish magazine would probably be considered by the courts to fall into the same category of case, but, as I made quite plain in my answer, the licensing authority did not prohibit the journey; it merely drew the attention of those concerned to the legal position.

I find difficulty in hearing the hon. Member when he turns his back to me.

I apologise, Mr. Speaker.

Look towards Mr. Speaker.

This seems to be a legal matter, which is not for us.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he has given any recent consideration to the immediate and prospective transport needs of the inhabitants of extra-metropolitan Essex areas; to what extent passenger traffic has increased during the past five years; and if he will make a statement on the plans and proposals to improve passenger transport facilities during the ensuing five years.

I have authorised the extension of the Liverpool Street—Shenfield electric line and preliminary work on this has begun. I have also upheld on appeal a proposal for an improvement of road passenger services between Southend and London. I cannot answer the second part of the Question without knowing which particular traffic the hon. Member has in mind, but in general it is for the Commission and the other transport undertakings to assess the transport needs of the area, and any representations for improvements should be made to them in the first instance.

Can the Minister say to what extent that will relieve congestion in the constituency of Leyton, which is the constituency I have in mind? Does he appreciate that development outside that area is having an effect upon traffic inside the area, and therefore some improvement is most necessary?

I certainly realise that. I urge the hon. Gentleman to contact the Commission—on this subject. I should be very glad to discuss it with him.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, in view of the fact that water has been drained from the canal, he will now have removed the humped-backed bridges over this canal in the Ditherington area of Shrewsbury in view of the dangerous nature of these two bridges and the small cost involved.

We hope to fit these improvements into the early part of our programme.

Would it not be better to bring this and all other canals into a proper state of repair?

No doubt the hon. Gentleman knows that the other day my right hon. Friend announced that, by agreement with the Transport Commission, he is arranging to hold an inquiry into the general use of canals.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is aware that an accident occurred to the Aberdeen-London express train near the Forth Bridge on Sunday night, 7th March, as a result of which part of the train overturned and was damaged; and if he will make a detailed statement indicating the cause, nature and consequences to passengers, permanent way and rolling stock.

Yes, Sir. A formal inquiry has been held and has established that the express train concerned failed to negotiate a steep gradient. It moved backwards and the last three coaches were derailed at catch points. There were no serious injuries, and the damage to the rolling stock and the track was not severe.

Is the Minister in a position to say whether any passengers or other class of people involved in the accident suffered personal injury or other loss? If so, what steps is he taking to compensate them?

One passenger received a slight injury. I am awaiting the report of my inspecting officer of railways on the whole matter.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will give the names of the four branch lines in Wales referred to in paragraph 5 of the latest Annual Report of the Transport Users' Consultative Committee for Wales and Monmouthshire.

The two cases concluded, where services have been withdrawn, were the Lampeter-Aberayron and the Burry Port-Gwendraeth Valley lines; consideration of the case for closing the Pontypool-Monmouth (Troy) line was deferred; and the report of a sub-committee was awaited on the decision to abandon the Quakers Yard (high level)-Merthyr line.

While congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on his Welsh pronunciation, may I ask him whether, as the Consultative Committee is meant to act in liaison between the travelling public and the transport authority, he will ask them in future reports to be much more informative so that the travelling public may know what their represatives have been doing on their behalf?

I will discuss that with them.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what breakdowns or partial breakdowns have been reported during the last three years in respect of the steamers "Lochmor" and "Lochearn" in service on the West Coast of Scotland.

Between March, 1951, and June, 1952, engine failures on these vessels were reported six times all told. Modifications were then made and over the last 20 months I am aware of only two partial breakdowns. Neither was of a serious character, but I much regret the inconvenience caused.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that on 3rd March of this year one of the engines of the "Lochmor" failed while she was entering Tarbert harbour, that this caused a delay of half an hour, and that other failures have been reported? Is he aware that there is a general lack of confidence in the performance of the machinery of these vessels, and in view of their importance to the welfare of the Western Islands, will my right hon. Friend look into the matter again to ensure that a better service is maintained?

I gather that the case to which my noble Friend referred was not due to engine trouble, despite the report in the Press. I will gladly look into the matter further, for I am anxious that there should be a good service.

Can the Minister tell the House whether these two steamers are part of the MacBrayne service and, if they are, is he aware that this House voted £300,000 per year for an adequate service to be maintained in the West Coast of Scotland by them? If the House voted that amount of subsidy to MacBrayne's, should we not have some guarantee that the service given is not continually breaking down and causing annoyance and delay to the people of Scotland?

This ship belongs to MacBrayne's. I remind the hon. Gentleman that contracts with MacBrayne's have been upheld during three Socialist Governments.

That is not an answer.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the First Lord of the Admiralty because it is possible that he may have a ship laid up for most of the year which could replace these two ships?

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many attacks there have been on British Service men in Egypt in February, 1954; on what dates and with what results; and what protests have been made and with what results.

On a point of order. In view of the statement which was given on Monday, the last part of my Question is obviously now out of date.

During February, 1954, there were 11 attacks on British Service men in Egypt. They occurred on the following dates: one each on 5th February, 8th, 9th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 17th, 20th and 28th and two on 19th February. One resulted in head and body injuries, three resulted in facial injuries, and the remainder caused no injury. During the same month there were also 13 cases of shots fired at British camps from outside the perimeters, or at service vehicles, but no casualties resulted.

On 17th February, Her Majesty's Ambassador discussed the whole state of law and order in the Canal Zone with the Egyptian Foreign Minister, and urged the Egyptian Government to take steps to improve the situation, particularly by removing known gangster leaders from the Canal Zone and by exercising special care in the selection of Egyptian officers appointed to posts there.

Further representations were made to the Egyptian Government in March. My right hon. Friend referred to these in a reply given in the House on 22nd March. The Egyptian Foreign Minister has informed Her Majesty's Ambassador that measures are being taken to improve the situation.

In view of the worsening of the position which has taken place in March, will my right hon. and learned Friend now consider making a completely new approach to the whole question of reaching a settlement with the Egyptian Government?

I think that the matter had better remain for the present where my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary left it in his statement on 22nd March.

As many of the men in the Zone are young National Service men, are any special precautions taken to protect their lives and limbs?

That is really a question for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, but the Commander-in-Chief on the spot has full authority to take the necessary measures.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will state the numbers and armaments of the police force maintained by the East and West German Governments, respectively.

The so-called East German "police" forces fall into two main groups. According to our latest information over 90,000 men are organised in army, airforce, and naval formations, and are armed with 600 tanks, 250 self-propelled guns, including howitzers, 1,700 other guns and aircraft. There are also about 55,000 men in the civil police, about 12,000 police for various security duties, and about 20,000 frontier police, making some 177,000 altogether.

The West German police consist of about 110,000 men. 90,000 of these are ordinary civil police normally armed with pistols. The remaining 20,000 are divided between frontier and mobile police, and are armed primarily with carbines and pistols. They also have a limited number of lightly armoured vehicles and mortars.

Can the Joint Under-Secretary say whether the build-up of armed forces in Eastern Germany, apart from the civil police, preceded or followed the proposal that there should be a German armed contribution to Western defence?

I can indeed inform the right hon. and learned Gentleman on that point. The formation of the East German military units began in October, 1948, which was some two years before even a decision in principle was taken about West German rearmament.

Could the hon. Gentleman make some arrangements whereby Communist organisations, who pass many resolutions against a German contribution to Western defence, might send the same resolutions to the East German Government and the Soviet Ambassador in London?

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I have no influence with Communist organisations in this country or in other countries. Perhaps the words which he has uttered and the advice which he has given will be noted by the Communist Party.

Can my hon. Friend say what are the personal arms of the 170,000 East German police?

I imagine that they have carbines and pistols, but the main armament is, as I have said, in tanks, self-propelled guns and aircraft.

While I regret the necessity for either of the forces to have arms, can the hon. Gentleman state how many of the officers in control, in both instances, are former Nazis? If he cannot do that, will he, if I put a Question on the Order Paper, do his best to find out as much information about the number of former Nazis in control of the two forces as he has now obtained about their armaments?

No, Sir. I have no information on that topic, and I should not wish to mislead the hon. Gentleman into thinking that I could obtain it.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what approaches he has received from the French and United States Governments, asking for a review or remission of part of the sentences passed on one or more of the seven Nazi prisoners in Spandau Gaol: when these approaches were made; and what decision he has arrived at.

No such approaches have been received.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether or not he has received any correspondence on the subject from persons in this country, particularly with reference to the suggestion that at least one of the Spandau prisoners could be transferred to a sanatorium?

I can tell the hon. Gentleman that there has been a certain amount of correspondence, and in it there has certainly been the suggestion that some of the prisoners who are sick should be transferred to a sanatorium.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman publish the correspondence in the OFFICIAL REPORT?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the British Government waived about £20 million of the debt of about £27 million due to it from the Government of Burma; and if he will make a statement regarding this matter and the negotiations about the defence of Burma.

Her Majesty's Government accepted after full discussions, a Burmese proposal to make a present payment of £7·3 million in final settlement of the Treaty Debt of approximately £26·7 million, repayable in 20 annual instalments. This debt related almost entirely to moneys advanced by Her Majesty's Government for reconstruction and rehabilitation in Burma after the war. In accepting the Burmese proposal, Her Majesty's Government were influenced by the advantages of a final settlement on the best terms obtainable.

With regard to the second topic raised by the hon. Member's Question, I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) on 8th March. Negotiations with the Burmese Government are continuing and I would prefer not to say any more about them at present.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman give the House any information about the real position in respect of China on the borders of Burma? Is it true that Communist China has laid claims to a part of Northern Burma and that recently some Chinese Communist troops actually entered a part of Burma?