House of Commons
Thursday, April 1, 1954
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Private Business
Wesleyan and General Assurance Society Bill
Read the Third time, and passed.
Oral Answers to Questions
Commonwealth Relations
Maldive Islands (Grant)
1.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations why he proposes to make a free gift of money to the Maldive Islands for file first time next financial year.
The Government of the Maldive Islands, which are under the protection of Her Majesty, have applied for assistance in a period of acute economic distress. The matter has been investigated on the spot by the Economic Adviser to the United Kingdom High Commissioner in Colombo, who has reported that the most urgent requirement is the rehabilitation of the fishing industry, on which the whole Maldivian economy depends.
In accordance with the recommendations of the report it is proposed, if the necessary Supply is granted by the House, to make a grant of £8,000 this year towards the purchase of materials and equipment for that purpose.
Is this group of islands coming on the "dole" permanently, like many others?
No, Sir. They are undergoing a period of economic distress, because the fishing industry has not been very successful. It is proposed to use part of the £8,000 grant to provide an auxiliary engine for one of their larger fishing vessels, and we hope that in time they may again become self-supporting.
Bechuanaland (Financial Assistance)
2.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what financial assistance is to be given to Bechuanaland for economic and social development.
With my noble Friend's approval, the Resident Commissioner recently issued a statement on this subject in Bechuanaland. Since it is rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The assistance promised in the statement is, of course, subject to the approval of Parliament in the normal way.
Can the hon. and learned Gentleman tell the House whether this assistance includes, for example, the implementation of the cattle ranching scheme recommended by the Gaitskell Mission?
The assistance will go to increase the total revenue of the Protectorate. The exact amount and the fields in which it will be spent are still under consideration.
Following is the statement
The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, in consultation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, has examined the Bechuanaland Protectorate's present ability to provide from its own revenues an adequate standard of services. They have concluded that, until the Protectorate's revenues improve, financial assistance from Her Majesty's Government will be needed.
Since 1940, the Protectorate has met the cost of ordinary administration from its own resources. It has, during this period, enjoyed assistance under Colonial Development and Welfare Acts, amounting to approximately £1,500,000 for development purposes. But the funds available have proved insufficient for the establishment and maintenance of adequate government services. The satisfactory administration of the vast and sparsely inhabited areas of the Protectorate, 275,000 square miles with a population of only 300,000 is costly and clearly beyond the Protectorate's own resources until further development, which unfortunately can only be very long term, leads to expansion of revenue.
Her Majesty's Government, recognising this, have agreed that the Protectorate should receive sufficient assistance for as long as may be necessary to enable adequate standards of administration to be maintained. It is hoped that funds from colonial development and welfare sources may be available to enable development work on water supplies, the Protectorate's greatest economic need, to be speeded up and expended both in existing settled areas and in the Kalahari (as recommended in the recently published Report of the Gaitskell Mission); and also for geological survey, improvement of agriculture and animal husbandry, tsetse and swamp control, grain storage, secondary education, etc. Grants-in-aid, the amount of which will be determined annually, will assist the Protectorate to undertake much needed expansion of its administrative services. Present proposals by the Administration include a programme of public works, mainly buildings and roads, of the order of £1 million over the next four to five years. The emphasis of additional expenditure will be mainly on activities and projects calculated to expand the Protectorate's economy, thus enabling it, in its turn, to afford further expansion of social services.
The programme for additional expenditure on administrative services is now under examination by Her Majesty's Government. The first phase of the proposed programme is already reflected in the Protectorate's 1954–55 budget, which provides for expenditure of approximately £950,000 against revenue of £830,000. This immediate deficit will be met from the Protectorate's own surplus balances, standing currently at £270,000. In 1955–56 when expenditure on the next phase of the programme, which may amount to about £1¼ million, is likely to exhaust the remaining surplus balance, Her Majesty's Government will be prepared to make such grant-in-aid as may be necessary to enable whatever programme is finally agreed to be carried out.
Trade and Commerce
Merchandise Marks Acts Infringements (Prosecutions)
5.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that members of the public, in many cases, are unable to obtain satisfaction from retailers when goods infringe the Merchandise Marks Acts; and whether he will give an assurance that in such cases he is prepared to look into the matter and, if necessary, institute proceedings.
No, Sir, I am not aware that members of the public cannot obtain satisfaction from retailers when they have legitimate claims for breach of warrranty or otherwise; the Board of Trade cannot help persons to pursue their civil remedies. Where there is evidence of an offence under the Merchandise Marks Acts, it is open to anyone to prosecute.
The cases in which the Board of Trade will prosecute are, in accordance with regulations made under the Merchandise Marks Act, 1891, such as appear to them to affect the general interests of the country, or of a section of the community, or of a trade.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that people who buy goods which are not satisfactory are not likely to gain much help from that answer? Would he tell the House how he ties up that reply with the letter he sent to me on 15th January last, in which he said that the Board of Trade has power under the Merchandise Marks Acts to institute proceedings against persons who infringe the Acts, where the general interest of the country, or a section of the community, or a trade, merited it? Who is to take action on the part of the shoppers, because I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that some shops do not exchange goods which are not satisfactory?
If the hon. Lady will read HANSARD tomorrow she will see that I have repeated almost exactly the words used in the letter.
6.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the sample of poultry feathers sent to him by the hon. Member for Coventry, South was removed from a pillow made by the Downland Bedding Company, Limited, of Liverpool, London and Glasgow; that the descriptive leaflet contained in the cellophane wrapping of the pillow is illustrated with the caricature of a duck and infers that these pillows are stuffed with down; and if, therefore, he will initiate a prosecution for misleading description under the Merchandise Marks Acts.
No, Sir. The hon. Member did not send me the pillow or leaflet from which the sample of feathers was taken, so that I could not investigate that particular case.
On a point of order. Is the Minister entitled to say that I have not sent something to him when I have done so, Sir?
The hon. Lady may have sent it, but the right hon. Gentleman may not have received it.
Is the President aware that I have a letter from him, dated 19th March, addressed to my private secretary, which I have not got, which says:
"Will you please let Miss Burton know that I received her letter containing a sample of poultry feathers?"
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, with that letter, I gave him the name and address of the manufacturer, and I told him that, if he wished to have the leaflet, he could have it? Is he further aware that the chairman of the company came to the House of Commons last week and tried to see me, and that he has now withdrawn the pillows?
If I may say so, that seems to be a very happy conclusion to this business.
11.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what advice is given by his Department to those members of the public who write to him about breaches of the Merchandise Marks Acts.
The reply must depend on the nature of the inquiry.
Instead of giving constant encouragement to traders to produce goods which are not satisfactory, would not the President explain why, on 2nd March, in column 992 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, he said he would be prepared to consider any matter put to him by Members of Parliament when they thought that proceedings should be instituted under the Act? Would he tie up that statement with the answer given this afternoon in a case where I sent him details and he refused even to look into them?
All have said this afternoon is that we cannot carry standardisation too far. Hon. Members would be a little hurt if I returned the same answer to every inquiry.
Is the President aware that, in the matter of the pillows, in which I gave him the details and the name of the firm, he refused even to look into it?
The hon. Lady is asking me to give standardised advice to every inquiry, but the advice must surely depend a little on the inquiry itself.
Is it not evident that the hon. Lady the Member for Coventry, South (Miss Burton) is not only trying to give my right hon. Friend the feathers, but the bird as well?
Do we understand from the right hon. Gentleman that the Board of Trade is prepared to prosecute, at least in certain cases? Is he aware that it is the desire of the trade associations and many reputable firms that the Board should undertake these prosecutions?
I have already stated in answer to earlier Questions the situation in which the Board of Trade considers prosecution.
13.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what proportion of prosecutions in 1950 and 1951 under the Merchandise Marks Acts were instituted by his Department.
Statistics of prosecutions under the Merchandise Marks Acts are only available for England and Wales. These do not include any prosecution by the Board of Trade in 1950 and 1951.
Can my right hon. Friend say whether the hon. Lady was pressing his predecessor at that time?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will ask the hon. Lady.
Since, in 1950–51, the public had the protection of the Utility scheme, and since in all cases of complaint about the Utility scheme, the Board of Trade was very active in prosecuting inquiries, will the right hon. Gentleman now tell us when the Board will discharge its responsibilities to the public in this matter of prosecution? Does he realise that the advice given to ordinary members of the public, that they should seek advice from their solicitors or institute proceedings themselves, is thoroughly meaningless when the real responsibility lies on the Board of Trade to undertake the prosecution?
This Question refers to a previous period. The previous Government, in fact, instituted only one prosecution.
Trading Estates Factory, Sunderland
7.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make a further statement on Messrs. Price Tailors, Limited, Sunderland Trading Estates factory.
No, Sir. I cannot at present add to the answer which I gave on 21st January.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this matter is causing real anxiety in Sunderland? Will he take exceptional measures to try to get a tenant for this factory?
It is causing some concern to me, but if the hon. Gentleman would have a word with me or with the Parliamentary Secretary, we should be very happy to discuss the matter with him.
Unemployment Areas (Government Policy)
8.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will outline the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards unemployment areas as distinct from Development Areas.
The policy towards these areas of relatively high unemployment remains unchanged. The Board of Trade do what they can to encourage industrial development, and these areas receive equal consideration with Development Areas when Government orders are placed.
Would not the President agree that, where we have these areas with a very high percentage of unemployment, such as exists in my constituency, special measures should be put into operation immediately to alleviate the position? Is it true, as I understand, that there are no special measures which the right hon. Gentleman can take?
I should be happy to consider any suggestions which the hon. Gentleman might wish to place before me.
Is the President satisfied that the present methods are producing satisfactory results?
I think that those methods of dealing in a special way with areas where there is unemployment are sound, and that there is a contribution, though a limited one, which they can make to this particular problem.
Will not the President agree that the real answer to the problem in Anglesey and in the part of Lancashire which I represent is for his Depart- ment to give attention to the proper working of the Distribution of Industry Act, which is not working properly at present?
I quite agree that the Distribution of Industry Act has an important bearing upon these matters, but, of course, this is not a Development Area, but one in which there is some unemployment.
Is it not true that unemployment figures today are lower than they have been since the end of the war?
Yes, Sir. I am glad to say that the unemployment figures are reasonably satisfactory at present, but the hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) was concerned with a particular area which has a special problem.
Japanese Goods
10.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will take steps to ensure that all goods entering this country from Japan shall be stamped "Made in Japan."
At present, more than half the imports from Japan, for which quotas have been agreed, are subject to orders under the Merchandise Marks Act, 1926, and must be marked either "Foreign Made" or "Made in Japan." This Act does not empower me to impose such requirement except after public inquiry and by orders nominating particular goods. Trading interests, wishing to secure compulsory marking, should therefore apply for an order to be made.
In that case, might not my right hon. Friend seek powers? Does he not agree that the marking "Foreign" on many of these goods is far too uncertain? Would he not also agree that in quality-goods Japan would not suffer from the use of the mark, because the term "Made in England" has been an asset to the sale of our goods abroad?
I have told my hon. Friend what powers exist under legislation today; the initiative, at the moment, still rests with those interests which wish to have markings, who must apply for an order for them.
23.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that Japanese elastic webbings of equal quality are being offered in Australia at prices from 10 per cent. to 33 per cent. below United Kingdom prices; and what steps he is taking to assist the United Kingdom exporters.
I have seen such reports. But our exporters have been doing well in the Australian market. There is no Customs duty on the United Kingdom product and, as from today, there is no quota restriction either. But the Japanese product is charged a duty of 12½ per cent. and remains subject to quota.
If I send evidence to my right hon. Friend from exporters of elastic webbings to Australia—I recognise that he has no power in the matter—will he use what influence he has to help them in that market?
I will certainly consider any representations which my hon. Friend wishes to make.
Turkish Commercial Debts
12.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, during Dr. Adenauer's recent visit to Turkey, an agreement was reached for the payment of Turkish commercial debts to German exporters; and whether, in view of the fact that British exporters are owed already £10 million by Turkish importers, he will give an assurance that he will make a further effort to secure similar conditions for British citizens.
I am assured that the agreement in principle which has been reached between the German and Turkish Governments implies no special arrangements for the settlement of debts due to German exporters.
As regards the second part of the Question, Her Majesty's Government are working with their partners in the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation to reach a concerted solution of the problem of Turkish commercial debts.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that conditions in Turkey are most unsatisfactory, that the Export Credit Guarantees Department is not in a position to back exporters, and that many valuable exports which could go from this country to Turkey are, therefore, being lost?
There are problems concerned with trade with Turkey, as there are with other countries, but this refers to the payment of past debts, and I think the answer covers the point raised in the Question.
s.s. "Gothic" (Advertising)
16.
asked the President of the Board of Trade on what grounds he refuses to consider chartering the s.s. "Gothic" for use as a floating shop window for advertising British productions overseas.
I am advised that such a scheme raises many practical difficulties which greatly outweigh any possible advantages; it is unlikely that exporters would support the exhibition. In any event, I understand that the s.s. "Gothic" could not easily be made available.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not basing his information on something which is out of date? The Ramsden Report of 1946 was on an entirely different matter. Surely he would be prepared to ask for details of proposals in order to consider them before he was so discourteous as to say, "No, I will not consider it at all."
I have given careful consideration to this proposal, which is in line with quite a number of other proposals of the same type which have been raised from time to time. I have looked at it carefully and I am satisfied that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
The right hon. Gentleman says that other proposals of this type have been made. Have any of these proposals had the publicity value of the "Gothic"? When he says it is not available, may I remind him that there is no need to have the "Gothic" at the beginning of the year; it could be later in the year to advertise next year's B.I.F., which needs it.
I understand that the hon. Member has already stated his intention to raise the matter on the Adjournment. I think he had better take that course.
I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity and I hope that this time I shall not be counted out by the teetotal fanatics.
East-West Trade
17.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement in respect of the outcome of the official discussions with Mr. Harold Stassen, director of the United States Foreign Operations Administration, concerning East-West trade.
19.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement about the talks with Mr. Harold Stassen on the subject of East-West trade.
14.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what the result has been of this week's discussions with French and United States representatives on the subject of East-West trade.
I have nothing to add to the statement which I made yesterday on this subject.
The right hon. Gentleman will have to do very much better before long. Does he realise that, while we are leaning backwards to play the game, the businessmen of other friendly countries are not playing the game? Did he tell Mr. Stassen when he was here that many people are "fed up" with America preaching to us and, at the same time, strangling our attempts to sell our products in America?
I made a very full statement on this subject yesterday and I do not think I can usefully add to it.
Since that full statement yesterday conveyed absolutely nothing to the House, and since the right hon. Gentleman ducked all the supplementary questions addressed to him, would he now tell the House, in answer to the two questions which I addressed to him yesterday, whether he thinks it will be possible for him, as a test case, to allow more machine tools to go to the Soviet Union before the time for confirming those contracts expires?
I answered a supplementary on that question from the right hon. Gentleman yesterday. If he did not understand the answer, nevertheless I think the House understood it. It was to the effect that I could not enter into details of these lists until I had had discussions on security considerations with our allies in Europe.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman understand even yet that what my right hon. Friend is pressing him about is dates? It will not be the slightest good if he pursues these conversations and reaches a favourable conclusion about them after the expiry date has passed.
I think the House will appreciate that what I have to consider here is not dictated by whether an order is placed by Russia or not, but by the security considerations involved.
We understand from the right hon. Gentleman's answer that he will not be able to say what will be agreed between the Western nations for some two or three months, a time which we consider excessive in relation to this problem. Will the right hon. Gentleman not at least tell us, about these discussions, in which we understand that Her Majesty's Government are taking an initiative with proposals—as the Prime Minister told us on 24th February—whether the Government are proposing some relaxation in machine tools?
If the right hon. Gentleman will study the statement which I made yesterday he will find full answers to these questions.
Imported Duty-free Machinery (Report)
18.
asked the President of the Board of Trade, in view of his promise to consider the publication in a few weeks' time of the report on the duty-free entry of machinery into the United Kingdom, if he is now in a position to publish that report, and to state what action he proposes to take upon it.
I have now received the committee's report. The subject is, as the report recognises, difficult and complicated, and I am considering the report in detail. I am not yet in a position to say when it will be published or what action will be taken on it.
While I do not wish to be unreasonable to my right hon. Friend, may I remind him that it is two months since he said that he was considering the issue of this report? This is of great importance to the importers of machinery which will be used to produce exports. Will he please make a decision quickly?
I had not got the report two months ago. I appreciate the importance of this matter and I am pressing on with its consideration with others—for a number of Departments are involved—as quickly as I can.
Industrial Organisation and Development Bill
20.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will now make a statement about the government's intentions with regard to the Industrial Organisation and Development Bill.
Yes, Sir. The immediate occasion for the introduction of this Bill was a request from the Joint Clothing Council for a levy which could not be imposed under existing legislation. It is now clear that there is no general support within the clothing industry for the Bill at present before Parliament, and in these circumstances Her Majesty's Government have decided not to proceed with the Measure.
Since it is clear that this Bill, such as it was, was dropped only because of strong representations from the right hon. Gentleman's own back benchers and from certain industrial organisations which conspired to boycott the original Industrial Development Act, would the right hon. Gentleman take it from us that, while his own supporters were suggesting that it was a Socialist Measure, we did not consider it to be a Socialist Measure but a very poor thing which we should just have supported? He can at least be satisfied that we should not have welcomed it as a Socialist Measure?
That, again, seems a very happy outcome. We seem to be unanimous on the matter.
Exports to Hungary
21.
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many applications for licences to export goods to Hungary he has received during the three most recent convenient statistical periods.
In the three quarters from 1st July, 1953, until 31st March, 1954, 50, 49 and 55 respectively.
Monopolies Commission (Deputy Chairmen)
22.
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many deputy chairmen of the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission have been appointed under the provisions of Section 1 (1) of the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Act, 1953.
None, Sir.
As it is several months since the Bill was passed, and as the intention of the appointment of the deputy chairman was to speed up the working of the Commission, can the right hon. Gentleman explain why there has been this extraordinary delay?
I made it plain in the debate on the Bill that I should not appoint deputy chairmen until I had given an opportunity for the enlarged Commission to settle down in its work. I do not by any means rule out the appointment of deputy chairmen, but I want the Commision to have a little further experience of working together.
National Finance
Entertainments Duty
24.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what representations he has received against the burden which the Entertainments Duty imposes on the cinematograph industry; and what steps he proposes to take to reduce the burden.
My right hon. Friend has received representations concerning the Entertainments Duty on cinema admissions from trade associations and a number of film exhibitors. But the hon. and learned Member will not expect me to anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.
While I would not expect the right hon. Gentleman to anticipate the Chancellor's Budget statement, will he not reply to the polite request as to the nature of the representations which have been made—not merely the number but the nature of the representations—and what action he proposes to take?
The nature of the representations, of course, is that they would like to pay less tax. To respond to the further part of the supplementary question would be to anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.
32.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many representations he has received in respect of the effect of the entertainments tax upon British cinemas.
About 130.
Is it possible that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer sits down on Sunday afternoon to write out his Budget proposals he will pay particular attention to the case of the smaller cinemas, which are very much affected by this tax?
My right hon. Friend will, as always, pay special attention to all relevant considerations.
40.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the present unfair and discriminatory rate of the Entertainments Duty; and if he will consider reducing the duty and making all types of entertainment liable to the same flat rate.
While not necessarily accepting any of the implications contained in this Question, I none the less will not anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.
National Debt (Interest)
25.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much was paid in interest upon the National Debt in the years 1900, 1910, 1920, 1930, 1940, 1950 and 1953; and how much this was per head of the population in each of those years.
As the reply contains a number of figures, I will with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
In view of the very heavy burden of the National Debt, will the right hon. Gentleman say what steps the Government are taking to reduce it?
The hon. Member will no doubt have an opportunity of discussing that matter in the near future.
Following is the information:
— Amount paid in interest on the National Debt ( a )) Amount per head of population ( b )) £'000 £ 1900–01 18,415 0·4 1910–11 17,685 0·4 1920–21 326,074 7·0 1930–31 291,874 6·4 1940–41 211,423 4·4 1950–51 467,529 9·3 1953–54 580,000 ( c )) 11·5 Notes: ( a ) The figures represent the net interest charge in the year. They exclude amounts met from receipts which, under various Acts, are applied towards interest otherwise falling on the Permanent Debt Charge, viz., £20,682,000 in 1940–41, £37,059,000 in 1950–51 and £88,000,000 (estimated) in 1953–54.) The figures represent the net interest charge in the year. They exclude amounts met from receipts which, under various Acts, are applied towards interest otherwise falling on the Permanent Debt Charge, viz., £20,682,000 in 1940–41, £37,059,000 in 1950–51 and £88,000,000 (estimated) in 1953–54. ( b ) Based on estimated population.) Based on estimated population. ( c ) Budget estimate, including charges for management and expenses of the Debt.) Budget estimate, including charges for management and expenses of the Debt.
Sports (Encouragement)
26.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will bring together the interested associations with a view to sponsoring the setting up of a Sports Council to encourage sport and assist British sport in world events on the same lines as the Arts Council sponsors artistic development; and if he will introduce legislation to enable him to make a substantial grant to this council which shall also raise funds and administer both the Exchequer grant and those funds so as to stimulate interest in sport and assist British sportsmen in world events.
Reductions have been made in recent years in the Vote of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education for direct assistance to sport and physical recreation, as well as in the grant-earning expenditure of local authorities for the same purpose. There must be some consistency of policy in these matters, and in view of the continued need for economy in public expenditure my right hon. Friend cannot under present circumstances entertain the hon. Member's proposal.
When you come to make allowances, Mr. Speaker, that seems a sympathetic reply. If it is I would ask, can we, when present circumstances change, have some more sympathy extended?
I would not differ from the hon. Gentleman's interpretation of the reply, but, as he will appreciate, the need for economy in public expenditure at present is singularly important.
United Steel Companies Shares (Allocation)
28.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer which applicant has been allotted most shares by the Iron and Steel Realisation Agency in the United Steel companies.
It would be contrary to practice for me to give information of this kind. The company's register of members will, of course, show the shares now held by each member.
Has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to a report in the Press to the effect that the largest buyer of United Steel shares was the Co-operative Insurance Society, and would he not agree that this is very satisfactory evidence of the faith of the Co-operative movement in the wisdom and enduring nature of the policy of the Government?
For the reasons I have given I cannot comment on that statement, other than to observe that if it were true it would be consistent with very sensible policy in the organisation concerned.
Football Pools (Taxation)
27.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has considered the memorandum on football pools sent to him by the Association Football Players' Union; and if he will now introduce legislation to control these bodies.
As the memorandum relates to the taxation of football pools, I must ask the hon. Member to await my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.
33.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the anticipated yield for the year to 5th April, 1954, from the football pools betting duty compared with £20,400,000 in 1952–53 and £17,600,000 in 1951–52; and how the revenue trend for football pools betting duty compares with the revenue trend for Entertainments Duty on football for the same period of three years.
As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following are the figures:
Note. —Receipts of Entertainments Duty were affected by increases in duty from 13th September. 1952, and the new exemption for amateur sports from 27th April, 1953.
U.S.A. Fruit (Purchase)
29.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what price basis private importers will buy grapefruit from the United States of America under the provisions of Section 550 of the United States Mutual Security Act; and to what extent the price will be affected by any form of subsidy.
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 18th March to the Question asked by the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. N. Macpherson).
Holt v. Estate Duty Office (Costs)
30.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is yet able to state the cost to public funds of the Holt v. the Estate Duty Office case; and if he is intending to set aside money for this purpose in the coming year for similar cases.
The information asked for in the first part of the Question is still not available. The Inland Revenue estimates for the year ending 31st March, 1955, were recently presented and include, as in previous years, a sum for law charges.
Will my right hon. Friend take suitable action to prevent cases similar to these from arising in the future?
I am all against representatives of the Government in the courts losing their cases.
Could not my right hon. Friend give us an estimate of the cost of these two cases to public funds?
The reason why the figures are not yet available is that the other party to the case has not put in its bill of costs.
Japanese Petrol Lighters
31.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what action he proposes to take in the case of Japanese petrol lighters which were impounded by Her Majesty's Customs and Excise on the ground that they contravened the Merchandise Marks Acts.
I assume the right hon. Gentleman has in mind the recent case where proceedings were taken in respect of some Japanese petrol lighters stolen from a consignment in transit through the United Kingdom. I understand that the lighters, which had been detained by the police, have now been released. At no time were they impounded by the Customs.
Seeing that these lighters not only apparently contravened the Merchandise Marks Acts, but were described by the learned magistrate in the case as obscene publications because of certain pictures on the outside of the lighters—details of which I shall not go into—will the right hon. Gentleman take such steps as are open to him to ensure not only that these lighters are not sold in this country but are not reshipped, as was originally intended, to the Colonies?
As the right hon. Gentleman is no doubt aware, it is not the practice to proceed on the basis of infringement of the Merchandise Marks Acts in the case of goods that are only in transit through this country, unless there is a direct conflict with British interests. The question of obscenity—and I shall follow the right hon. Gentleman's example and not go into details—is, of course, a matter for consideration by the prosecuting authorities, who, in this case, were not the Customs.
P.A.Y.E. (Extension)
34.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider extending the system of Pay As You Earn payments of Income Tax to other Income Tax groups now not covered by pay-as-you-earn, who eventually find themselves unable to pay their Income Tax.
Such an extension would require legislation, and any question of legislating on this matter must wait until the Royal Commission has reported.
Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that something more is not required here as the Income Tax is slowly but surely forcing these people into very great difficulties? Ought not some different arrangement to be made?
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there are real difficulties and I hope that the Royal Commission may be able to help us in connection with it.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Royal Commission is likely to report? For the past three years all manner of worthy projects have been turned aside from that Box with the same answer, "We are waiting for the Royal Commission's report." Can the right hon. Gentleman hold out any hope that the Royal Commission will report soon?
I cannot answer that question without notice.
Meanwhile, does not the right hon. Gentleman think it is very unsatisfactory for everybody concerned that these people should be owing large amounts to the Inland Revenue for long periods?
I am not quite certain whom the right hon. Gentleman is referring to as "these people," but I would agree with him that it is unsatisfactory that anybody should owe money to the Inland Revenue for any period.
Professional Entertainers (Tax Liability)
35.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the public concern over the large sums of money owing to the Inland Revenue by professional entertainers; and what steps he is taking to ensure that the Income Tax amounts owing do not accumulate to sums of money which cannot, or will not, be paid.
The Inland Revenue have continuously under review the question of the most effective and convenient means of assessing and collecting tax due from this and all other professions and occupations.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware—I expect he is—that a great deal of public anxiety is caused when, periodically, certain people are brought to the courts or go bankrupt and it turns out that they owe thousands of pounds to the Inland Revenue? Why do the Government allow these debts to accumulate over the years? Surely earlier action should be taken to avoid making these people go bankrupt by making them pay only occasionally, when it is thought, perhaps mistakenly, that they can afford to do so.
I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is highly undesirable for incidents to occur such as those that, I have no doubt, he has in mind and that have been referred to in the Press recently. We are very anxious to prevent cases of this sort from arising. There are very real administrative difficulties in handling the category of cases the hon. Gentleman has in mind, but we shall certainly do our best to see that they do not get away with it.
Post-war Credits
37.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in preparing his Budget statement he will give special attention to the repayment of post-war credits to those who are suffering from chronic and incurable diseases such as pneumoconiosis
I cannot anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.
Would the right hon. Gentleman bring to the attention of his right hon. Friend the fact that there would be no administrative difficulty about this if he were to bring his mind to bear on the problem, and that the needs of these sufferers really are very distressing to all of us on both sides of the House, who have representations made to us continually about them?
I will certainly convey the hon. Gentleman's views to my right hon. Friend's attention.
56.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amount of post-war credits; how much has been repaid, giving yearly repayments; how much remains to be paid, giving separate yearly liabilities; and the number of individual entitlements.
The answer to the first part of the Question is about £800,000,000; £216,000,000 has been repaid, and £20,000,000 set off against arrears of tax. Consequently, about £564,000,000 remains to be paid, and is, under the existing law, now being repaid at an annual rate of about £17,000,000. There are about 10¼ million holders of these credits.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people will be expecting his right hon. Friend to speed up that process next Tuesday?
I note the hon. Member's statement of his view.
Football League Clubs (Financial Burden)
38.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what reply he has made to the representations made to him by the Association Football Players' Union, that the attendances at football league matches have fallen this season as compared with last season, due to the financial burden so many clubs have to bear.
The union has been informed that their representations will be borne in mind.
39.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will allocate a percentage of the taxation imposed upon football pools, so that the league clubs upon whose fixtures the pools are organised derive substantial benefit.
No, Sir.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that it would be quite impossible for the pools to continue if they were not based on the fact that we have footfall played by league teams throughout the country? Is it not morally reasonable that the clubs should ask that grants should be made out of the tax to them, so that they can go on acting as a milch cow for the right hon. Gentleman and he can go on getting money?
I agree that it would be difficult to have football pools without football, but there are very real difficulties of both principle and of practice in allocating particular sources of revenue to particular objects of expenditure.
Is not the answer to this problem to cancel the Entertainments Duty on football matches and to make good any slight loss of revenue by increasing commensurately the football pools betting duty?
I have heard my hon. Friend express that view before, but this is certainly not the time of year when it would be expedient for me to speculate on it.
In view of the right hon. Gentleman's answer to me about difficulties, will he please bear in mind that any such difficulties are overcome in Sweden, for instance, where they do allocate money in such cases?
I note the hon. Gentleman's point of view.
£ Sterling (Purchasing Power)
43.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the internal purchasing power of the £ now is, taking the figure for October, 1951, as £1.
The internal purchasing power of the £ sterling is estimated, on the basis of the latest figures, to have been 19s. 2d. in February, 1954, compared with 20s. in October, 1951.
The calculation is based on the price index for all consumer goods and services between 1951 and 1953, and the Interim Index of Retail Prices thereafter.
Does not the hon. Gentleman now admit that we are still l0d. in the £ worse off than we were in October, 1951?
All these figures show that the £ sterling has been much more stable under the present Administration than under the last.
55.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the approximate purchasing power of the £ today as compared with 20s. in 1935.
Eight shillings and one penny. This estimate is based on the Ministry of Labour's cost-of-living index between 1935 and 1938, the index covering all consumer goods and services between 1938 and 1953, and the interim index thereafter.
Do I take it that if the Surtax figure of £2,000 which was in vogue in 1935 were imposed at the same value today, it would be about £5,000? Will the Economic Secretary pass this information on to his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
All I should like to admit is that £2,000 todays buys a good deal less than it did then.
Cutlery (Purchase Tax)
44.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will abolish the uplift which is coupled with the incidence of Purchase Tax on cutlery.
My right hon. Friend is considering the question of uplift as applied to the various articles chargeable with Purchase Tax.
Although we appreciate what the Government have done in taking off Purchase Tax will my right hon. Friend not consider the suggestion contained in the Question, as it would help the industry, which is still losing skilled men and finding difficulty in getting orders?
I realise the importance of this matter both generally and to the cutlery industry particularly.
Purchase Tax Registrations
51.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer from how many firms registration for Purchase Tax was withdrawn during the year ended 31st December, 1953; and in how many cases it was withdrawn because of change of address, alteration of legal status and evasion or default of Purchase Tax payments, respectively.
Purchase Tax registration was cancelled in 6,679 cases during the year ended 31st December, 1953. But this figure includes the many cases where a registration is cancelled on a change of address or legal status and reissued.
I regret that the particulars asked for in the second part of the Question are not available.
In view of the fact that in a debate on the Adjournment on this subject, my right hon. Friend stated that withdrawals had been made because of the loss of revenue, will he look into this matter and give the figure which is asked for? It is very pertinent.
I know my hon. Friend's concern in this matter. The difficulty is that while I can give the total figure, it is not possible to break it down in accordance with registrations which are withdrawn.
On what authority of Parliament have these cancellations been made?
I should prefer my hon. Friend to put that Question down, but I would hazard that Section 12 of the Finance Act, 1944, is the answer.
52 and 53.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) how much was lost to the Exchequer during the year ended 31st December, 1953, as a result of default or evasion of payment by firms registered for Purchase Tax;
(2) from how many manufacturers and wholesalers, respectively, being registered for Purchase Tax the Revenue sustained loss because of evasion or default during the year ended 31st December, 1953.
I regret that the detailed particulars asked for are not available, but the total amount of Purchase Tax formally written off during the year ended 31st March, 1953, on losses actually proved was £220,600. The total number of registered traders involved in this amount was 208. This does not, of course, indicate the full extent of the loss, known and unknown.
Will my right hon. Friend please look at this matter again and try to give these figures? There has been a considerable number of withdrawals of registration and the House and the country are entitled to know how many have been made and the reasons.
I will certainly try to give my hon. Friend the figures that I can find, but he must not ask me to invent them.
Diplomatic Corps (Relief from Excise Duty)
54.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the anomaly whereby members of the Diplomatic Corps must pay full duty on all British spirits they buy in this country but can and do import under diplomatic privilege foreign spirits duty-free, he will consider, in their interests and the interest of the British trade, granting remission of Excise Duty on spirits sold to accredited members of the Diplomatic Corps in this country.
No, Sir. Diplomatic privileges have traditionally never included relief from Excise Duty and I can see no sufficient reason for departure from this tradition.
H.M. Stationery Office (Area Branches)
41.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make arrangements to establish a branch of Her Majesty's Stationery Office in Glasgow.
I am afraid not. I do not think that such a branch would pay its way and I am satisfied that the public need is adequately met under present arrangements, which include both the appointment of a principal Glasgow bookseller as agent and the sending of supplies to other leading booksellers.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the present address of the agency is not known to one person in 10,000 in Glasgow? Is he further aware of the inconvenience caused to journalists, teachers, professional men, commerce and industry? Will he reconsider the matter very earnestly?
I am anxious to be as helpful as I can in this matter. I will certainly look into the hon. Member's suggestion that the address of the particular agent is insufficiently well-known, and will see whether I can do anything about it.
Does it not seem strange to the right hon. Gentleman that the second city of the Empire has not an office of this kind when smaller towns have an office? It surely does not depend upon whether the office pays?
There is no question but that the importance of this great city is fully appreciated. The grounds on which it is decided whether an office is paying its way have to take into account wider circumstances than of the individual city.
Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the right policy is to have less Government paper to sell?
To some considerable extent we are meeting the point of view of my hon. and gallant Friend.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the population of Glasgow is 1,163,000, whereas the population of Birmingham is 1,168,000, and that the supplementary question of the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) is, therefore, totally incorrect?
I am not going to get involved in that brawl.
Will the right hon. Gentleman state the circumstances that determine whether a regional branch or an area office will be instituted? Is he aware that 11 other towns in the country having only from a quarter to a half of the population of Glasgow have actually two offices while Glasgow has not one?
The next Question, in the name of the hon. Member, covers this point and it will be more convenient to answer it there.
42.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the considerations and conditions which apply in establishing area branches of Her Majesty's Stationery Office.
Branch offices of Her Majesty's Stationery Office have been established in towns where the volume of business, both in respect of supply to Government Departments and sale to the public in the town itself and in surrounding areas, makes it possible to run them without imposing an additional burden on the taxpayer. In other large towns, leading booksellers are appointed as agents for the sale of official publications.
East-West Trade
45.
asked the Prime Minister what answer he has given to the United States representations that Her Majesty's Government's proposed list of articles for East-West trade should be reduced.
I must refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade yesterday on the agreement reached with the United States and French Governments.
Does that mean that we cannot really ascertain what answer the Government gave to the American representation until we see what emerges at the actual conference on East-West trade? Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that not very long ago he himself said in this House that in old age a little abuse was a necessary and invigorating stimulant, and that we might take him at his word?
I cannot add to the answer I have just given.
Having, in the light of the statement of the President of the Board of Trade yesterday, given notice to the Prime Minister that I am withdrawing Question No. 46, may I now ask him, in relation to this Question, whether he is aware of a widespread feeling in the country that he, the Prime Minister, is the only Member of the Administration who is really pressing the British point of view on this question of East-West trade, both in his initiative of 24th February and in his recent talks with Mr. Stassen? Would he continue with the good work, even if some of his colleagues are not so energetic?
I assure the right hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade is in every sense No. 1 in this matter.
Is it not desirable that the expansion of East-West trade should become part of a more general settlement with the U.S.S.R. so that that country should have to give something as well as taking something?
Yes, Sir. All expansion, and even tendencies towards a better state of affairs, are to be welcomed.
Nazi Prisoners, Spandau
48.
asked the Prime Minister on what date he received a letter from a well-known British lady, requesting him to intercede in trying to get one of the Nazi war criminals, now in Spandau Gaol, transferred to a sanatorium; on what date he referred this letter to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs; and whether the approach by the three Western Powers to the Soviet authorities in Berlin on this subject was made on the initiative of Her Majesty's Government.
I have not received any such letter. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs informed the hon. Member on 29th March, the approach to Mr. Molotov was made jointly on behalf of the three Western Powers. It was, in fact, the latest of many approaches made by them through their High Commissioners in Germany on the subject of living conditions in this prison.
Will the Prime Minister confirm or deny that a letter sent by Baroness von Neurath was, in fact, handed by his private secretary to the private secretary of the Foreign Secretary, on the intervention of a lady who is very well known to the Prime Minister; and that arising from that, these approaches have been made for the possible release or transference of some of these criminals? This was when the Prime Minister was in Jamaica, on his holiday. Does he recollect?
I hope the hon. Gentleman has not been devoting too much of his time to trying to smell out the details of private correspondence.
Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that while in no way condoning the ghastly offences that these men committed, people in this country feel that prison conditions should be of a civilised nature, whatever the prisoners' offences may have been?
I certainly have felt for several years that the conditions in Spandau were very hard and inhumane.
And in Belsen?
In this case we are dealing with a man of 81 years of age—which I can tell the House is quite a lot—and who is suffering from illness. It is quite true that his wife wrote a letter, as a wife may always do, endeavouring to enlist sympathy on his side. He has my sympathy.
U.S. Air Bases, United Kingdom
49.
asked the Prime Minister what provisions regarding the supply and storage of airborne war weapons are contained in the agreement with the United States Government concerning the United States air bases in this country.
It would not be in the public interest to give the particulars requested in the hon. Member's Question.
Whatever may be the arrangements of which we cannot be informed, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that for the sake of the safety of the people of Britain, no hydrogen bombs will be introduced into this country and stored at these bases?
I am quite sure that all measures necessary for the safety of the people of this country will be taken by the authorities concerned. I must point out that no particulars of these arrangements were ever given during the tenure of the previous Administration—[An HON. MEMBER: "There were no hydrogen bombs then."]—who instituted the bases in Norfolk.
A rotten answer.
A rotten Question.
I thought of that one myself.
50.
asked the Prime Minister what steps he has taken to ensure that United States bases and supply lines in this country will not be the object of hostile attack in the event of the United States becoming involved in a war in which the United Kingdom is not a belligerent.
The Question raises considerations of such a hypothetical nature that I am in no position to answer it.
Is it hypothetical that the Americans, under their retaliatory air policy, may drop a bomb somewhere in the Far East which will involve them in war with Russia, and that as a result this country may be exposed to mortal peril because of the presence of bases in this country, which will be the object of hostile attack?
I am quite sure that all this aspect was most thoroughly considered by right hon. Gentlemen opposite before they took the very daring, very exceptional step, which, nevertheless, we have steadily supported, of affording these bases to the Americans.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are some Members of the House who are more concerned with the safety of Russia than with the safety of their own country?
Is my right hon. Friend aware that in so far as East Anglia is concerned, where many of these bases are situated, we are proud and grateful to have them there?
Whether or not the previous arrangements, for which, certainly, the right hon. Gentleman was not responsible, were well considered, is it not the case that if the United States happened to become a belligerent in a war in which we did not wish to become a party, the existence of operating bases and supply lines on our soil would make us, in international law, a belligerent whether we wished to be or not?
As I say, all these facts were no doubt considered, and have been reconsidered by us, and we take our share of the responsibility. It certainly must have been the cause of a great deal of anxious thought. But I still think that on the whole the result has been to give greater safety and assurance to the free world.
Government Experimental Officers (Employment)
57.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the terms of the Government's recent offer of employment for Experimental and Assistant Experimental Officers, Civil Service Commission Circular 594–95/54.
As the terms of the current open competition for Experimental Officers and Assistant Experimental Officers are very detailed, I am sending a copy of the regulations and notices to my hon. Friend.
Do these regulations provide, briefly, that only persons who serve in the Regular Forces after the war are eligible? If there were particular cases of persons who served in the recent war, would the Commissioners take them into account?
I should not like to summarise three detailed pages of print, but, broadly speaking, this competition does not bear relationship to service in a particular force.
But it is limited to men under 31 years of age.
Requisitioned Land, Pitsea
59.
asked the Minister of Agriculture how much of the land at Great Chalvedon Hall, Pitsea, requisitioned by the county agricultural executive committee in 1941 has since been returned to its owners; and what contribution the land remaining under requisition made to food production in 1953.
Eighty-eight acres of this land have been returned to their former owners and a further area of 40 acres is in process of being derequisitioned. The remaining 112 acres are well farmed.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that I first wrote to his Department many months ago, that I have had only a few fobbing off letters and that land belonging to two elderly gentlemen is still under requisition? When can a decision be taken?
The advice of the Agricultural Land Commission has been sought on the future of the 112 acres and I am expecting to receive it at an early date.
Exactly how many separate owners are there of the 112 acres?
I cannot say without notice.
N.A.T.O. (Soviet Note)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any statement to make on the Note which it is reported Soviet Russia yesterday delivered to the Governments of Britain, France and the United States.
Yes, Sir. Her Majesty's Government will consider the Soviet Note in consultation with the United States and French Governments, to whom identical Notes were also addressed, and with other directly interested Governments. I will arrange to publish as a White Paper a translation of the full text of the Note as soon as possible.
There are, however, certain preliminary observations which I would offer to the House. A large part of the Note is concerned with criticism of the European Defence Community and of N.A.T.O. as at present constituted, in similar terms to those employed by Mr. Molotov in Berlin. The possibility of a German contribution to the European Defence Community is denounced, while the existence of German military formations in the East Zone is ignored. The creation of "military groupings" in the West is condemned, while Soviet Treaty arrangements with the satellite Powers and Eastern Germany are passed over in silence. N.A.T.O. is described as an aggressive Treaty directed against the Soviet Union.
But the House will remember that N.A.T.O. was the answer to Soviet policy and not the cause of it. N.A.T.O. was brought into being by the free nations of the West in an effort to prepare their joint defence in response to overwhelming Soviet strength and to the menace which Soviet policy and action represented. In these circumstances, Soviet membership of N.A.T.O. would not of itself be a sufficient assurance to the members of that organisation, who well understand that its continued existence is their surest guarantee of a free life.
Moreover, N.A.T.O. is something more than a purely military arrangement. As the preamble states, it is founded on the principles of individual liberty and the rule of law. Article II pledges the parties to strengthen their free institutions. It is not yet clear to us from the Soviet Note whether the Soviet Government are now willing to subscribe to and to practice these requirements of membership.
Her Majesty's Government are at all times willing to examine proposals to reinforce European and, indeed, world security. They have shown themselves anxious to pursue disarmament by agreement. It is their conviction that for the purposes of world peace and security the United Nations, if used in the true spirit of its Charter, affords the best forum and the most hopeful opportunity.
Her Majesty's Government are not convinced that new associations of a broad and general character, such as are proposed in the Soviet Note, can in present conditions replace the free partnership of like-minded nations.
Without denying the validity of the points made by the Foreign Secretary, may I ask whether it is possible that this Note might be the basis of discussion, something on the lines that the Prime Minister laid down in his speech last May with regard to a kind of Locarno Agreement in Europe?
As I have said, I think that our duty is to enter into full discussion, particularly with our N.A.T.O. partners, because it is obvious that the position of N.A.T.O. is the most serious matter that we have to consider. As I have said, we are very ready to consider European security arrangements. We were ready to do so at Berlin and I can say in reply to the right hon. Gentleman that we are certainly ready to do that. I think he will agree that we could not accept replacing N.A.T.O. for the sake of these new arrangements, in view of conditions as they are today.
Is it the fact that this has been turned down completely by the United States, or are they prepared to discuss it with their allies before making a full reply?
I understand that the United States Government have put out a statement this morning to the effect that discussions are to take place between the Powers principally interested. It is true that they put out observations of their own yesterday without consultation—[HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."]—but it is only fair to add that I have done exactly the same in Parliament this afternoon.
Would the right hon. Gentleman make it quite clear that Her Majesty's Government expect that there will be the closest and fullest consultation not only between Her Majesty's Government and the United States Government, but all the Governments who are signatories to the Treaty itself?
Yes, Sir. This is essentially a N.A.T.O. matter and in my judgment it must be discussed and dealt with on that basis.
In view of the right hon. Gentleman's last statement, is he aware that public opinion in this country is getting a little tired of the American Government shooting off their own line all the time and making their own statements, apparently turning down this offer, whereas ordinary people are hoping that anything that would help to lessen the cold war will be approached with consideration?
It is only fair to agree that the whole experience of the Berlin Conference was that the United States did not do anything of that kind at any time during the deliberations, and our consultation was close and our action was joint at all times. I would never guarantee that none of us would ever step out in front of the other, but if all countries worked as closely as we do the world would be in a better shape than it is today.
Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will treat this offer in the spirit in which it was made and keep an appropriate sense of humour about it?
I do not think that I want to comment on the spirit of my reply.
Is the Foreign Secretary aware that it is an axiom of the European situation that there is no peace for England if there is no peace for Russia? May I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, whom many of us on this side of the House consider to be honestly endeavouring to secure world peace, to see that, whatever anybody else or any other Government may say, this Government deals with this question honestly and sincerely in an effort to win peace for Europe?
I think that the hon. Member and the House feel that we did that at Berlin. I assure him that we are doing just that in the preparation that we are now making for the Geneva meeting and that we shall work in that way.
Without commenting upon the substantial merits of the Soviet Note—and I quite follow the argument of the Foreign Secretary—may I ask whether he would seek to take some steps whereby, before any principal Government involved in these matters make a comment, they will try to consult their principal allies? It is really inconvenient for the United States Government to make a pronouncement forthwith before any consultation with the British Government and, it may be, with one or two other Governments. If there is not this consultation it is really impossible for us to have a united, co-operative policy among the Western Powers. If the right hon. Gentleman could persuade Mr. Dulles to have consultations with us before he makes or authorises a pronouncement, would it not be to the advantage of Western democracy that he should do so?
I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that that has been the general practice. It is fair to say that this Note reached the United States, placed as they are, at an hour of the day different from the late hour at which it reached us and comment was made, as I have made comment this afternoon. But the right hon. Gentleman knows very well that I have this in mind. The N.A.T.O. Council is actually meeting this afternoon in Paris for a preliminary examination of this Note.
Now that Mr. Molotov has completed his study of the relationship between N.A.T.O. and the European security plan which he undertook to make at the Berlin Conference and has exploded his diplomatic hydrogen bomb, will the right hon. Gentleman at least give this proposal rather more serious attention than he gave to the tentative suggestions in this direction when they were put forward in Berlin?
I said that the N.A.T.O. Council is examining it this afternoon and the matter will be considered by the N.A.T.O. Powers.
Business of the House
May I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether he will state the business for next week?
Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 5TH APRIL—Supply [12th Allotted Day]: Committee, which it is proposed to take formally.
The Adjournment of the House will then be moved and a debate will take place on the Hydrogen Bomb.
Report stage: Town and Country Planning Money Resolution.
TUESDAY, 6TH APRIL—My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will open his Budget.
WEDNESDAY, 7TH APRIL, AND THURSDAY, 8TH APRIL—General debate on the Budget Resolutions and the Economic Situation, which will be continued and brought to a conclusion on Monday, 12th April.
FRIDAY, 9TH APRIL.—Private Members' Bills.
At the beginning of business on Thursday of next week, it is proposed to consider the Motion which appears on the Order Paper this morning and commemorates the 50th Anniversary of the Entente Cordiale.
I may say that this proposal has the warm support of the Leaders of all parties.
It may also be convenient for me to inform the House that it is proposed to adjourn for the Easter Recess on Thursday, 15th April, and meet again on Tuesday, 27th April.
With regard to the debate on Monday, may I say that we are considering putting down a Motion for discussion?
Bill Presented
Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Bill
"to make provision with respect to Scotland for compensation and other payments by reference to claims for payments under section fifty-five of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act, 1947; to make further provision as to the acquisition of land by public authorities, as to compensation in respect of orders revoking or modifying permission to develop land and in respect of damage to requisitioned land, as to development charges, as to Exchequer grants under the said Act of 1947, and as to payments under section fifty-six of that Act, and to amend other provisions of that Act; to make further provision for the modification of mining leases and orders granting working rights; to make further provision for the assessment under section one hundred and eight of the Lands Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Act, 1845, of the consideration payable in respect of the discharge of acquired land from feu-duty and ground annuals and other burdens; to provide for the transfer of the functions in Scotland of the Central Land Board, on the dissolution of that Board, to the Secretary of State; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. J. Stuart; supported by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Lord Advocate and Commander Galbraith; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 91.]
Business of the House
Proceedings of the Committee on Town and Country Planning [Money] exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[ [The Prime Minister. ]
Orders of the Day
Housing Repairs and Rents Bill
[2ND ALLOTTED DAY]
As amended (in the Standing Committee and on Re-committal) further considered.
New Clause.—(CONTINUANCE OF REPAIRS INCREASE SUBJECT TO DECLARATION OF EXPENDITURE ON REPAIRS.)
(1) Subject to the provisions of this section any repairs increase shall cease to have effect at the expiration of five years, except as provided in section twenty-four of this Act, from the date upon which the notice of increase has been served upon the tenant in accordance with section twenty-three of this Act.
(2) The landlord may at any time before the expiry of the aforesaid five years but in any case not earlier than four and a half years after the date of service of the notice of increase make a declaration supported by evidence to the local authority that he has in fact expended the amount of such repairs increase in repairs and maintenance of the dwelling.
(3) The local authority, if satisfied that the repairs increase has been so spent and that the dwelling is in good repair, shall certify accordingly and such certificate shall be valid for a period of five years.
(4) The landlord may at any time after four and a half years from the date of the issue of the aforesaid certificate apply for a renewal by making a declaration supported by evidence that the repairs increase has continuously been spent upon repair and maintenance, after which the local authority, if satisfied that the repairs increase has been so spent and that the dwelling is in good repair, shall renew the certificate for a period of five years.
(5) At the expiration of any certificate renewed under subsection (4) of this section, the local authority shall again renew it for five yearly periods thereafter upon the same conditions.
(6) So long as a certificate under the foregoing subsections is in force and subject to the provisions of section twenty-four of this Act, the landlord shall be entitled to the repairs increase.—[ Mr. Sparks. ]
Brought up, and read the First time.
3.43 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
This new Clause will have the effect of bringing all rent increases to a stop at five-yearly periods of time, and in order to secure a continuance of the rent increase the landlord would be under an obligation to prove to the local authority that he had spent the rent increase upon repairs during the previous five years. If the house were in a state of good repair and the local authority were satisfied that the rent increase had been so spent, they would then issue a certificate to that effect which would be valid for five years, permitting a continuance of the rent increase for that period of time, and so on at five-yearly intervals until finally the house ceased to be occupied.
If the main purpose of Part II of this Bill is to be effective, the principal thing that we have to guarantee is that the increased rent which will be paid by tenants will be spent by the landlord upon repair and maintenance. It may be asked why this new Clause is necessary. This new Clause is necessary because without it we are relying upon an instrument which has already failed in its purpose, and there is nothing inside the confines of this Bill which will ensure in a practical way that these rent increases, once decided upon, will be spent by the landlords upon the repair and maintenance of the property.
The right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends will no doubt say that they have taken care of this possibility, and no doubt they will refer to Clause 24 of the Bill. That Clause may appear in theory to be the answer to this problem, but in practice it is a very weak instrument for that purpose and will inevitably fail in its objective. It will so fail because it is based largely on the same provisions as are in the 1920 Act. At that time Parliament authorised increases of rent of 25 per cent. for repairs, and that increased rent was intended to be spent by the landlords on repairs of the property. Had they carried out the provisions of that Act, the condition of millions of houses in our country today would be very much better than it is.
If, however, the landlord did not spend the 25 per cent. increase upon repairs of the property, then the tenant, and not the landlord, had to do something about it. The tenant had to go to the local authority and ask for a sanitary certificate certifying that the house was not in good repair. Then he had to go to the county court with it and get that court to pronounce that the certificate of the local authority was correct. After that process had been gone through, the landlord could be deprived of his 25 per cent. increase.
Experience has shown, and yesterday hon. Gentlemen opposite confirmed this, that those provisions in the 1920 Act were practically a dead letter. An overwhelming number of tenants in this country live in houses that are a disgrace, the landlords of whom have not spent the 25 per cent. increase upon repairs, and so, for very good reasons known to most of us on this side of the House at any rate, if not on the opposite side, the overwhelming number of such tenants have not been able to take advantage of that part of the 1920 Act. I do not want to repeat those reasons, except to say that the provisions of the 1920 Act on this point have proved to be absolutely abortive.
The right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends have practically lifted the provisions in the 1920 Act and incorporated them in this Bill. Why the right hon. Gentleman feels that the formula will work and succeed now, whereas under the 1920 Act it has lamentably failed to be effective, I do not know, because the same fundamental objections are present here as were present in that Act. The fact remains that tenants, for many reasons, will not go to local authorities to ask them for certificates of disrepair, and they will not go to county courts and face the responsibility that that would involve. With the passage of time, therefore, there will be a tendency for this to be completely forgotten, and it will become to all intents and purposes a dead letter. In that event, the landlord will go on receiving the rent increase with no need to spend a further penny on the repair of the house in question.
We feel that Clause 24 is totally inadequate. The principle has already been tried in the 1920 Act and has failed. It will also fail on this occasion, and there will be no real and practical way of ensuring that these wholesale increases of rent that are about to take place as a result of this Bill will be used by the landlords to maintain the property in a good and habitable condition.
I know that before the landlord qualifies for a rent increase he will have to be able to show that he has, in fact, spent certain money in the previous 12 months or the previous three years, the house being then in such a condition that he will qualify for a rent increase. But once that is done, there is no practical provision in this Bill anywhere which will ensure that the increase of rent paid specifically for repairs will be used for that purpose in the future.
Therefore, this Clause is very necessary. It places an onus equally upon the landlord and upon the tenant to see that the rent increase has, in fact, been used for the purposes for which it was granted. It will mean that, after having received an increase of rent for five years, the landlord will cease to get that increase unless he indicates to the local authority that he has, in fact, spent the increased rent on keeping the house in good condition. Then he will be entitled to draw the increased rent for a further five years. In fact, I think this new Clause could usefully take the place of Clause 24. If this new Clause stood alone, it would be far more effective in achieving the main purpose which the right hon. Gentleman says he has in promoting Part II of this Bill.
The new Clause ensures two things. First of all, it ensures that the increased rent will be spent upon the repair of the house, and secondly that the tenant will not be exploited. If the increased rent is being used upon the repairs, the tenant will have no complaint, but it will be a protection to him to know that, if the increased rent which he is paying to the landlord is not, in fact, being spent upon repairs, then at the end of five years he will receive by way of compensation a reduction of rent equal to the repairs increase.
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends will see the wisdom of this proposal and will agree in principle to the adoption of this new Clause. I think it serves the main purpose which he and his friends profess to have in mind. I know that some hon. Gentlemen opposite will advance all sorts of arguments about practical difficulties, but there should be no practical difficulty at all about it, because in order to qualify for the rent increase in the first place the landlord must present evidence that he has in the past 12 months spent so much money or in the past three years he has spent a greater sum of money. Therefore, records will already have been kept. If that can be done in the initial proceedings when claiming the repairs increase, then the same process can be applied at five-yearly intervals of time.
The new Clause is a good one. I believe that it carries out the main intentions which the right hon. Gentleman says he has in mind on this subject. I hope that the House will give this new Clause a Second Reading.
I beg to second the Motion.
I should imagine that the Minister would warmly welcome this Clause, because it will show to the general public that this Bill is a genuine attempt to secure the repair of houses which stand in need of repair. The Minister all the way through has argued that the present rents which the landlord receives are too exiguous for them to keep the houses in a proper state of repair, because the cost of repairs has so substantially increased since 1938. To induce the landlord to repair the houses, the right hon. Gentleman is going to allow him to charge an increased rent.
It is essential that it should be seen that this increased rent is spent practically entirely upon repairs and is not to be just a bonus added to the income of the landlord. As matters stand in this Bill at the moment, when the Bill becomes law the landlord can, after a short period, send a notice to his tenant declaring that he has done the necessary amount of repairs laid down in the Bill and claiming the increase to which he is entitled for those repairs.
Apparently, the landlord, when he sends this notice, has not to give any valid proof that he has actually carried out the repairs, and if the tenant does not think that he has carried them out or has not carried out repairs to the value which he states he has, then the tenant can ask for a certificate of disrepair from his local authority or he can refuse to pay the increased rent and allow a test case to go to the county court.
I have no doubt there will be hundreds of thousands of applications to local authorities for these certificates of disrepair, and many thousands of cases will be decided in the county courts. The legal profession are likely to reap a fairly rich harvest in a few months after these notices are issued, but this must come to an end. It will be finally determined whether the landlord has done the repairs and whether he is entitled to the increased rent. Once that is determined, apparently under the Bill the landlord will be able to go on charging that increased rent in perpetuity, to use the phrase of my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), without doing any further repairs at all, unless, of course, year by year the tenant can test the landlord's claim for the increased rent in the county court. But how many tenants are going to take their landlords into the county court year by year? It may be that they are too easy going, or too timid, or too poor to take county court action year by year to see that the landlord has carried out his statutory obligation to do the repairs to enforce the increased rent. As we know from the experience of the 1920s, the landlord will get away with the increased rent without doing repairs for which the increase was established.
4.0 p.m.
This new Clause is devised to see that the landlord continues to do the repairs before he is allowed to continue drawing the increased rent. I would ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to tell me what is wrong with that. What is wrong with asking the landlord to submit accounts to the local authority at the end of a five-year period, stating that he has spent the necessary amount of money on repairs, to justify his continuing to charge the increased rent? Can any hon. Gentleman opposite say that it is wrong to do that? Can anyone say it is impracticable?
It would be simple for the local authority, with its skilled accounting staff, to go through those accounts and check them to see whether they were true and valid, and, having checked them, to determine whether the landlord was entitled to increase the rent. It seems to me that if the Minister does not accept the new Clause, he is admitting to the general public that the Bill is a fraud and that it will not do what he said it was going to do, that is, to see that a landlord could increase the rent on condition that he spent the money on the necessary repairs. If this Clause is not accepted, I think the majority of the people of this country will come to the conclusion that this Bill is not a Bill to encourage the landlords to do repairs but one to place unearned income, in the shape of increased rents, in the pockets of the landlords.
This is a question which was discussed exhaustively in Committee.
It was not reached.
The actual point was reached. My right hon. Friend is at one with the intention of the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks), who moved the new Clause, which is to be sure that the increase in the rent is spent on repairs. I think that my right hon. Friend in the proceedings in Committee did say that he had rejected the proposal which was put forward by the hon. Member for Acton on two grounds. The first was that in most cases there will not be any dispute between landlord and tenant—[ Interruption. ] At any rate, there will be cases, relating to many millions of houses, where there will not be any dispute at all; but of course one cannot say that there will never be a dispute in 100 per cent. of these cases. A dispute may be fomented by certain interests, or it may be helped by them, but generally speaking there will be no dispute.
The second reason that my right hon. Friend gave was that the burden on local authorities would, to a large extent, be too great. We have had many complaints, and rightly so, about the shortage of sanitary inspectors. The hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Blenkinsop) has spoken at great length about this shortage and the burden it causes to local authorities; but the proposal in this new Clause would place an additional burden on local authorities. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It might place it on the staff of the local authorities, because every five years somebody would go and ask for the accounts to be checked and a dispute might arise about whether the money had been spent on the property.
For these reasons the Minister came to the conclusion that it would be much better to adopt the procedure laid down in the Bill. Another reason the Minister cannot accept the new Clause, although he agrees that he wants the money spent on repairs, is that we think that the procedure laid down in the Bill will be necessary because the cost of keeping a house in good repair in 1939 was, on the evidence of the Chartered Surveyors, the statutory deduction, but on the evidence of the Girdwood Committee it now costs three times that statutory deduction. If the landlord does not spend the money on repairs the house falls into a state of disrepair, and, if it does, the tenant can at any time go, not, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Itchen (Mr. Morley) said to the county court, but to the local authority, for a certificate of disrepair. Although a comparison has been made between what happened in 1920 and what may happen now, it may well be that the tenant was frightened of the county court in the 1920s, but in this instance he can go to the local authority.
He always did. He went to the local authority and saw the sanitary inspector. Our complaint is that it was not done a sufficient number of times to keep the house in a proper state of repair.
I was not dealing with the right hon. Gentleman, but with the point raised by the hon. Member for Itchen, who had said that a tenant would not face the proceedings in the county court. I said that under these arrangements a tenant would go to the local authority, and from my experience in my constituency I find that tenants are not shy of going to the local authorities if they want advice. Tenants and citizens now have greater recourse to advice than ever they did in history. They have the Citizens Advice Bureaux and the local authorities; in many constituencies a Member of Parliament holds a "surgery," and even he is subjected to competition inasmuch as a prospective Member holds a "surgery" as well. There are also trade unions and trade councils. All of these give advice, and it is highly improbable that a tenant will not know what to do, and it is equally improbable that he will be frightened of the local authority.
We say that the procedure in the new Clause is unnecessary because the house will be in a state of disrepair if the money is not spent. Secondly, it is impracticable because of the burden which would be placed on local authorities. The method which the Minister has chosen is, in all the circumstances, fair and reasonable, and will get the job done reasonably quickly.
The method proposed in the new Clause is the same as that which the right hon. Gentleman has used.
In that case there seems no need to move the new Clause. A tenant can go at any time—not in five, four or three years, but every two or three months—for a certificate of disrepair if he thinks the house is in disrepair, and hon. Members and other persons elsewhere could give advice to tenants on how they could get such certificates. The moment that the certificate is granted they can withhold the increase in rent.
If the hon. Gentleman has any experience of a large working-class area, he knows the difficulty at present, let alone when all the rents start going up. The council offices, advice bureaux, etc., will be cluttered up with people seeking advice.
This new Clause would clutter them up still more. It is exactly the point I am making—that the course chosen by my right hon. Friend will impose a smaller burden upon the local authorities than that proposed to be imposed upon them by the new Clause. I am grateful for the assistance in this respect of the hon. Member for Spark-brook (Mr. Shurmer). He is exactly supporting my point that the local authorities are cluttered up and that it will be wrong to impose on them a major burden unless it is absolutely necessary.
I know that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have placed great reliance upon this principle, which they have enunciated forcefully and frequently in the country, but I am bound to say that, on the whole, if we really want to get the repairs done to the houses, I think that the system proposed by my right hon. Friend is fair and reasonable in all the circumstances. It gives every tenant of every house an opportunity at any time to apply for a certificate of disrepair.
I cannot believe that the tenants in this country, in 1954, have not sufficient knowledge of procedure or sufficient faith in their own ability, or that they lack sufficient advice to help them, to be able to go to the local authority at any time.
Accordingly, I hope that the House will reject the new Clause, although I feel, knowing the feelings of the Opposition, that they will probably wish to press it to a Division.
In the interests of the further new Clauses on the Order Paper, however, I will not take up more of the time of the House on this one, except to say that my right hon. Friend is perfectly satisfied that the system which he has proposed is fair in all the circumstances, and that this new Clause would cause the difficulties which we discussed in Committee on Clause 21. It was not quite the same point, but the new Clause is probably half-way between my right hon. Friend's method and the method which the Opposition, in Committee, wanted.
My right hon. Friend and I feel that in all the circumstances it is highly probable that it will be found that most of these cases will be agreed amicably between landlord and tenant, and that in the other cases the tenant is adequately safeguarded by the advice which he will receive and the opportunities that will be open to him to apply for a certificate of disrepair. Accordingly, I ask the House to reject the new Clause because we think that, in the circumstances, we have been extremely fair to the tenant.
Owing to the application of this iniquitous Guillotine to our debate, we must bring the discussion on this new Clause to a close if we are to get on with the other matters that remain for discussion. It is a great pity. We have had some very unsatisfactory replies during the whole of these proceedings, and I must say that the Parliamentary Secretary has not improved the record by his latest statement.
Whether hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite really do not know how people live or whether they just will not admit it, I do not know. Let me tell them the plain fact is that in 999 cases our of every thousand people who have had to pay the increase on the 1920 basis have had no repairs done to their property. Now the Parliamentary Secretary says that under this Bill there will be no dispute between landlords and tenants. Let me tell him what will happen under the Bill. I have said it many times in the course of our discussions—
Has the hon. Gentleman any statistical basis for the statement which he has just made?
Not a statistical basis, but I base what I have said on knocking around and mixing with the ordinary folk who live in rented properties. I do not know the Parliamentary Secretary's constituency, but I should not be surprised if it contains a large working-class area. I guarantee that if he and I went to the constituency, went into the pubs and clubs and chatted to the people there, they would tell him that the landlord is not doing the repairs. That is the truth. We are not here concerned with the landlord who owns the house next door but with the vast property-owning companies which work through investment trusts and whose estates are managed by local estate agents—
The "Economist."
4.15 p.m.
—and referred to, as my right hon. Friend observes, in the "Economist," which, by the way, says that this Bill means that, for the first time, investment in working-class property becomes profitable, which means to say that the rents will go up but the repairs will not be done.
The position is conclusively proved in Birmingham, where thousands of houses of that type have been taken over and it has cost thousands of pounds to repair them because nothing was done to them in past years.
There was an increase in rent under the 1920 Act, but the repairs were not done by the landlord, and in order to keep the places comfortable for themselves, the tenants have done the bulk of the repairs.
It is our contention—right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite say we are wrong—that under this Bill the landlord will get a rent increase of twice the statutory deduction to the limit of double the gross rateable value, and that no repairs will be done. That is what will happen—not in the case of the good landlord; we are not dealing with him; we do not legislate for the good landlord; legislation in this House is generally 20 years behind what is done by the best people, whether we are considering Factories Acts or anything else.
The good landlord will carry out the repairs but the vast majority of landlords will not do so.
Therefore, there ought to be some check, and all we are asking in the new Clause is that the landlord should satisfy the local authority every five years that he has spent the money. The Parliamentary Secretary quite rightly said that the Girdwood Committee said that three times the statutory deduction was necessary to carry out repairs if a house was to be kept in good repair. I accept that, but surely it is not too much to ask that every five years the landlord should satisfy the local authority that he is spending at least twice the statutory deduction. In any case, if the Parliamentary Secretary's statement is correct—and he is basing it on the Girdwood Committee's Report—property automatically is going down if the landlord is only spending twice the amount of the statutory deduction on it.
Let us look at the two reasons why the Parliamentary Secretary has asked the House to reject the new Clause. The first was that there would be no disputes between landlords and tenants. There will be hundreds of thousands of such disputes. There are disputes already, before this Bill becomes an Act, because the people who have been doing repairs since 1920 are saying, "Are we going to have to pay an increase in spite of the fact that we have been doing the repairs since 1920?" That will be the first big point of dispute.
Secondly, the Parliamentary Secretary says that the proposal in the new Clause would be a burden on the local authority. The hon. Gentleman is now serving in a Department which has responsibility for local government. Local government in this country has only two functions—to carry out services on behalf of the community when private enterprise fails to do so or cannot make a profit out of it; or, where private enterprise provides the service for the community, to protect the consumer against fraud by private enterprise. The local authority has to employ the sanitary inspector, the weights and measures inspector, the food and drugs inspector and the rest.
Local government has been complaining that many of its functions in some fields have been taken away. There is no greater function and no more suitable function for the local authority than to see that the people within its area are well housed. In this new Clause we are asking that the landlord should satisfy the local authority every five years that he has spent the money.
I expected the argument to be that this proposal would place a great burden on the landlord. Surely it would not. We are dealing with the larger-scale landlords who work through estate agents. If they are effective and efficient business people, they keep a register and a record is made of the rents coming in and of expenditure, and a house-by-house record is kept of what is spent on each property—or such a record should be kept. If this new Clause is agreed to, it will make it obligatory upon them to do so.
Much as I should like to continue emphasising the urgent necessity for this Clause, I will conclude by saying that if hon. Members opposite reject it they will be throwing away the only clear-cut and definite guarantee that the tenant can have that the landlord has got to satisfy some independent court—I do not use the word in a legal sense—that the money has been spent.
Because of the operation of the Guillotine, and because it takes 10 minutes to have a Division, we shall not have one on this Clause. The better way will be for hon. Gentlemen opposite to vote it down on the Floor of the House, although we on this side are very satisfied that it is the only guarantee which the tenant can be given. I hope that my hon. Friends will vote for the Clause.
I had not intended to intervene, but I must make one or two observations following the remarks made by the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren). It is really not right to make these wild generalisations about landlords. We all know, unfortunately, that there are too many landlords who have behaved in the way described by the hon. Gentleman, but in this Bill we are dealing with millions of houses.
The hon. Gentleman said that we are not legislating for the good landlords. But that is precisely what we are doing. We are trying to make it possible for good landlords to keep good houses.
Only in the last 48 hours I was in the office of people connected with me in social work, and we were going over scores of maintenance claims in respect of working-class houses. It is not true to say that no landlords have done any repairs. The hon. Gentleman said that 999 out of a thousand landlords do not do the necessary repairs. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is within the recollection of the House, and it just is not true.
He is very nearly right.
I do not agree.
Surely, it is the function of this House to protect the citizen. The Factories Acts were not introduced in order to protect the worker against the best employer, but to protect him against the worst employer. What we ought to do under this Bill is to protect the tenant against the worst landlord, not to make it easy for the best landlord and allow the worst landlord to get away with it.
We are not primarily discussing a protection; we are discussing which landlords, and how they are to be enabled to do work to reasonably good houses. It is just not true, and is, indeed, a complete misconception of the problem to say that 999 out of every thousand of these people have done no work and will do no work, and that the Bill has been designed on that basis, and that it will break down.
Apart from quoting my experience against that of hon. Members opposite, if, in fact, it is quite obvious that the landlord has not been near the house for years, it is equally clear that the tenant will have no difficulty in saying that the landlord cannot qualify for the increase.
I am bound to say that this new Clause, unlike so many other Clauses, has a great deal to be said for it, and that it cannot be dismissed out of hand. I gave it a good deal of thought before deciding whether—in so far as a humble back bencher might—something should be said in its favour from this side of the House. On balance, the basis of the case that we are putting to the House and to the country is that this amount of money must be spent, and, therefore, why not show it? That is the simple point.
Arguments have been put forward by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, but I want to put a rather different argument as to why on balance, and at any rate at the start, we should not have this Clause, although we might after experience have to reconsider it. The reason that weighs with me is not quite that which was put by the Parliamentary Secretary, because, while on balance and on average if this amount of money is not spent the houses will fall into disrepair, that is not true of every individual house over every four and a half years.
Again, only this week I came across a set of six small working-class houses—not owned by rich people—where the owners had spent on those houses something like £300. Unfortunately, that expenditure was made just outside the qualifying period so that the owners will not be able to count any of it in order to get this repairs increase. As I say, they are reasonably poor owners, and they spent that substantial amount of money in putting the houses into a reasonable condition. Their agent has said to them, "You have had to spend this money this year, and I will try to cut down the work as far as I possibly can for several years to come."
Looking at the figures of the subsequent repairs, it is quite clear that the landlord who is keeping his houses in good repair will not, for that particular set of years, have spent enough to qualify under this Clause. In other words, the short reasonable objection to the Clause, at any rate in the early stages, is that, while on average if a landlord could qualify along these lines he is letting the house fall into disrepair, there will be in many individual houses and for many periods of five years not enough scope to qualify.
A landlord may have to spend a lot of money on one house and may have to cut down in the next year or two on several houses. Therefore, on balance, I think that there is a good deal to be said for starting without this Clause; but if, as the years go on, there is evidence that the fears of hon. Gentlemen opposite are justified, it may well be necesary to look at the matter again. At the moment, however, I think we would be well advised to oppose the Clause.
Question put, and negatived.
New Clause.—(TRANSMISSION OF CERTAIN CONTROLLED AND STATUTORY TENANCIES.)
(1) On the death of a tenant, who occupies a dwelling-house under a controlled tenancy (other than under a lease for a term of which one year or more is unexpired on the death of the tenant) or under a statutory tenancy, the tenancy shall pass to the widow of the tenant who was residing with him at the time of his death or, where the tenant leaves no such widow or is a women, to such member of the tenant's family, who was at the time of the tenant's death and had been for not less than six months immediately before the tenant's death residing with the tenant, as may be decided in default of agreement by the county court.
(2) A person to whom under the provisions of the preceding subsection a tenancy passes shall be deemed to be a statutory tenant:
So that upon the death of that person the statutory tenancy, unless previously determined, shall again pass under the said provisions and that the like shall happen on each succeeding death of a statutory tenant.
(3) A person, to whom on the death of a tenant a controlled tenancy passes under subsection (1) of this section, may at any time within six months after the said death give notice in writing to the person or persons in whom, but for the said subsection, the tenancy would at the time of notice be vested, that the first-mentioned person renounces the statutory tenancy; and such notice may be given to take effect forthwith or on any date at or before the expiration of the said six months:
Provided that, if at the time of the notice being given there are more members than one of the deceased tenant's family to whom by agreement or by a decision of the county court the controlled tenancy might under the said subsection have passed, such a notice shall not take effect without the concurrence of all such members of the deceased tenant's family, such concurrence being signified in writing on the notice.
(4) On a notice given under subsection (3) of this section taking effect, the controlled tenancy which passed on the death of the tenant shall be deemed to revive and to be vested in the person or persons in whom, but for subsection (1) of this section, it would at the time of its revival be vested:
Provided that the last-mentioned person or persons shall not be entitled to any personal rights or subject to any personal liabilities which may have accrued in relation to the dwelling-house during the period of statutory tenancy and which shall remain enforceable respectively by and against the former statutory tenant.
(5) A copy of any notice given under subsection (3) of this section shall be served on the landlord of the dwelling-house to which the notice relates; and subsection (5) of section seven of the Act of 1938 (which provides a mode of service of certain documents) shall apply to the service of such a copy as though it were a document required by the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Acts, 1920 to 1935, to be served by the tenant of the said dwelling-house on the said landlord.
(6) If on the death of a tenant, who occupies a dwelling-house under a controlled tenancy, the tenancy is not one to which subsection (1) of this section applies or there is no person to whom the tenancy passes under that subsection, in either of those events and not otherwise the interest (if any) of the tenant in the dwelling-house shall pass as it would have passed, if the foregoing provisions of this section had not been enacted.
(7) That part of paragraph ( g ) of subsection (1) of section twelve of the Act of 1920 which follows the word "sublet" (and relates to the meaning of the expression "tenant") and section thirteen of the Act of 1933 (which limits the effect of the said subsection (1)) are repealed.—[ Mr. Mitchison. ]
Brought up, and read the First time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
This Clause relates to the transmission of certain controlled and statutory tenancies. The present position, as I am sure every hon. Member realises, is that a controlled tenancy can pass once to a widow or other relative who has been living for the proper period of months in the house with the tenant, and when it has so passed that is the end of the matter; it cannot pass again. That depends on the decision of the court regarding the meaning of the word "tenant" under the Acts, but I have always felt doubtful whether Parliament, when the Acts were put through, had this point in mind. There have certainly been a number of legal decisions on it.
But this is not the law in other countries. For instance, in Northern Ireland two transmissions are allowed, and in Southern Ireland, where a rather more generous spirit prevails, these transmissions are allowed to go on indefinitely. This new Clause proposes to allow an indefinite number of transmissions.
Of course, the transmission—I am using that word for convenience—is always from a tenant to a widow or to a member of the family who has been residing in the house. In a new Clause that now appears in the Bill, there is a small and rather separate point somewhat connected with this, but the broad point is whether or not it is right that there should be further transmissions always to a widow or a home residing relative of the tenant.
4.30 p.m.
As was indicated in Committee, it is a question of a conflict of interests. The landlord is, no doubt, anxious to get hold of his property with vacant possession as soon as possible, and, having got hold of it, will sell it. The Government have shown throughout the discussions on this Bill a certain solicitude for the interests of the landlord, which perhaps reached its highest point in the new Clause which was introduced by them yesterday to prevent the further operation of the Rent Acts. I hope, however, that for the moment they will have some regard, at any rate, for the other interest in this matter.
What happens at present is this. If we assume a very common case indeed, of a man living in a house with a widow and members of the family, then the single transmission only operates, and after that the members of the family, who may well have spent their whole lives in that house, will be turned out. I believe that the broad intention of the Rent Acts was to give security not merely to an individual but to a family in these kinds of cases. I hope that we are not going to hear from the party opposite that they are so regardless of the value of the family in our social life that they are prepared to prefer the landlords' financial and property interest in these matters to the continuity of the family in the same house.
When the Government come to consider and weigh up in their own minds, for the benefit of their own consciences, which of these two interests they prefer, I should like to point out that, apart from the conduct of the landlord in matters of repairs and so on, there is another point to be considered, particularly in relation to this sort of matter, and that is that there are very many landlords indeed in this country who have bought houses knowing that they were rent-controlled. They never intended to buy and they never bought a house over which they were going to have complete and absolute control.
The question now is, to what extent should the kind of control to which the house was subject when it was bought be continued? Of course, it is an alteration in the law, but it is an alteration that conforms with what is going on in the country. Originally, naturally enough, there were not many of these cases. When the Acts first came in, tenants died, as we all do in our time, but to begin with the number was small. But in the ordinary course of nature, the number got larger and larger every year, and in consequence the number of cases in which a family—if I may use the word broadly—is being turned out of a house in which it has always lived, because of a death or two deaths in the older generation, is continually increasing.
Unless Parliament takes some steps to bring the intention of the Rent Acts up to date, these families are going to disappear from these houses with increasing rapidity. They are to be extinguished, not by a change which no Government has yet had the courage to make—and they are quite right not to have made it—but by the mere lapse of time and following what, I think, was a judge-made decision on a particular definition. It was a decision that was not arrived at as a matter of course. It would not have occurred to anyone as the natural consequence of the language of the Acts. There is no evidence whatever that anyone thought about it at the time, so far as I know. But there it is. There is no doubt that it is the law.
There is one other complication that I will just mention, and I am certainly not going into it with a Guillotine hanging over us. We have tried to provide in this new Clause for a related matter which is really rather complicated, but it comes to this. If a controlled tenant dies, then the person who would for the first and only time succeed him by virtue of the Rent Acts gets preference over some other relation or other person to whom he may have left his interest in the house by a will. There ensues a very curious state of affairs in which the Rent Acts nominee—if I may so call the person; I refer to the widow or the selected relative who is left there—goes on living there, but the person to whom the interest has been bequeathed has a sort of dormant or sleeping interest in the property.
It is a thoroughly confused state of affairs. It is going to lead to very considerable practical difficulties. But if I may refer once more to the Scots judge, it can only be the infirmity of our judgment if we do not understand it, for it is a decision of the House of Lords, and there it is. This Clause, to cut a technical matter rather short, tries to reconcile that particular difficulty with the dictates of non-legal common sense in the matter. I do not think I need say more about it.
The substantial point is this. Ought the landlord to be allowed to step in as a matter of right at the stage where he is at present entitled to step in, if that means depriving members of the family, who may have lived in the house all their lives, of the right to go on living there? Ought we to prefer that right of property which at present exists to the right of family which this Clause seeks to promote?
I beg to second the Motion.
On 9th December, 1952, I put the following Question to the Minister:
Something even worse than that is going on. We have a number of cases—I will not mention names—of disreputable agents in Birmingham who, even before the parent has died, go to the daughter, who is probably in a distressed condition, and say, "By the way, your father died five years ago and the rent was changed. If you do not buy the house, you will find yourself out in the street." I have advised people who have been pestered in this way to throw a bucket of water over the caller, and in some cases they have done so. But I have known people who have been driven to the stage of a nervous breakdown through being pestered in this way.
This is a grave problem for sons and daughters who have cared for their parents and who now find themselves faced with the possibility of being turned out in the street. We should not lose sight of the fact that it would be possible in some cases for a son or the daughter, or both, if they remained in the house, to take in a sub-tenant, and in that way to assist in providing more accommodation. I feel that the time has arrived when something should be done for this class of people. The number is increasing rapidly, and I hope that this question will be examined carefully. Are we to permit decent people to be turned out into the street after they have done their best to keep their parents out of a public institution?
I am very interested in this matter, as I have evidence of a number of cases in my constituency, which is just one small part of Birmingham. If that be the case, what must be happening all over the country? I should not mind so much if a landlord were waiting to obtain possession of a house for himself or members of his family, but what he is waiting to do is to grab it and sell it to the highest bidder. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will consider this matter, because it is a sore point with many people and their numbers will increase.
I agree with the hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer) that the question of the transmission of tenancies is a very sore subject in some of our big cities, and not least in Birmingham. I was "grilled" on this subject recently by my local tenants' association and I address the House now because the matter is fresh in my mind. I am certain that we should adhere firmly to the principle of the two tenancies. It is my belief that, were any such Clause as this accepted, it would result in a tremendous disincentive to people to provide premises for letting. For that reason alone, I believe that the public interest and the interest of thousands of people in this country would not be served by the introduction of such a Clause.
The hon. Member has said that were this Clause adopted it would be a disincentive to the building of houses for letting. But if the Clause which was approved last night reaches the Statute Book, surely the new houses built for letting will not be affected by this Clause?
I was not in the House last night when that Clause was discussed. What I said was that this Clause would be a disincentive to the provision of premises for letting. I was thinking in terms of existing houses, rather than new houses.
The hon. Member knows as well as I do that in Birmingham, where there is a housing register of 60,000, if the housing Department is sympathetic in a case of this kind and provides a municipal house or flat, it will be at the expense of an applicant who has been longer on the waiting list, and that the landlord of the property which becomes vacant can obtain money by selling it.
That is a wider question in which I do not wish to become involved, as I do not desire to take up too much time.
rose —
No, I cannot give way. I do not wish to take up too much time.
I have often found cases where people have been unnecessarily scared by some agency which collects rents, and, as a result, they have never tried to get alternative accommodation. I believe that the prospects of getting alternative accommodation are much better than people imagine—
Do not say that.
Instead of taking fright, these people should endeavour to find alternative accommodation. Even if they only advertise in the local paper, I believe their chances would be much better than they think—
No.
I can only tell the hon. Member what is my experience.
I do not think we should judge this question simply upon the behaviour of the least reputable property companies. Do not let us forget that there are in this country a large number of small property owners to whom great injustice would be done if this Clause appeared on the Statute Book.
4.45 p.m.
I was glad to hear that the hon. Member for Handsworth (Sir E. Boyle) was not present yesterday evening, because that may have saved him from a sleepless night. There was some very bad business done in this House yesterday, and if the hon. Member had been present, in view of what he has said about his experience in an urban area, he would have been ashamed of himself had he voted in favour of the new Clause that was accepted last night.
I was grateful for the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Spark-brook (Mr. Shurmer), because when the matter was discussed on Committee we were told that the Government had no evidence that this was a serious problem. We were told that it had been considered, but that there was little evidence of this kind of thing taking place. My experience and, I am sure, the experience of every hon. Member who represents an urban constituency, is precisely the same—that this is the biggest social evil which exists at present. I would put it as high as that.
I am left staggered at the social philosophy of the Government who, faced with the problem of the Rent Restriction Acts, can spend so long as the present Government have spent in working out schemes for increasing rents, and at the same time exempt new houses from the Rent Restriction Acts and regard that as comparable with the really serious evil which is increasingly being caused by this business of transference. As was said by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), this is something which will grow. As a result, a large amount of property will go outside the scope of the Rent Restriction Acts altogether.
Last night we heard that that would be warmly welcomed by the party opposite. They have dedicated themselves to a policy of free enterprise and of allowing private rents to rule in housing. It is consistent that they should want, by this legal strategy, to decontrol a large amount of property which has been controlled. This is disastrous from the point of view of the unfortunate occupiers, of the person who buys the house, and also from the point of view of the local authority.
I have had several cases in my constituency of houses which, before the war, were worth £50 or some such figure, and which no one would buy, being offered to the sitting tenant at about 10 times that value. As a result of the parents of a family dying these properties have been sold with vacant possession to some unfortunate person who has had to pay £300 or £400 for them. From the point of view of the occupier, this whole business is a family disaster.
The case which is frequently quoted is that of a woman who for years has cared for her parents and as a result has lost the opportunity of setting up home for herself elsewhere. At an age when she does not wish to leave the home she finds herself pitched out in the street. She finds that she is a trespasser and that she has no rights. If she goes to the county court she cannot obtain more than a short respite, because she has no rights which are legally enforceable.
Another type of case which has occurred in my constituency is that of a young family who have lost both their parents in quick succession. A young man of, say 25 years, feeling that it was the wish of his dead mother, undertakes the serious and grave responsibility of trying to keep that family together. He sets out on this adventurous task of feeding, clothing, sending to school and keeping four or five youngsters, with, perhaps, an elder sister to do the housekeeping—a little family which he tries to keep together. What will happen under this Bill? Along will come the agent, who will see an opportunity of making a quick profit by selling the house with vacant possession. He gives notice to quit, and out goes the family. Yet, we are told by the party opposite that that is something which we need not worry about, because it is the normal operation of the market.
What happens from the point of view of the purchaser? Because he is desperately anxious to get a place, he buys the house without any proper survey, and usually he buys a house which is old and pretty derelict, which requires much more money to be spent on keeping it in repair; in other words, he buys "a pup." It is obvious that the house will eventually be condemned, but the owner, who well knows its condition and has known if for years, gets out while the going is good and leaves the wretched owner-occupier in charge. The wretched owner-occupier then has the dubious privilege of reading Conservative Party propaganda about the glories of a property-owning democracy. That is the position.
What is the position from the point of view of the local authority, which has a very important interest in the matter? When the family is made homeless, in spite of what was said by the hon. Member for Handsworth, it is no good for them to take a taxi to the nearest estate agent and ask for the list of available properties, because life does not work out that way any more.
What, in fact, happens is that they go to a rest centre or half-way house, or, if not, they must obtain Part III accommodation under the National Assistance Act, and there they remain a public charge upon the rates until they can eventually be rehoused by the housing authority, which receives a grant from the Exchequer; they become priority cases on the housing list, while the landlord takes the quick profit and gets away.
That is what is happening all over the country. Although I have a constituency which is comparatively free from serious social problems, and they do not bother me very much, the biggest problem that I get from my constituents is this very problem, and I have to shrug my shoulders and say, "Eventually, if you are lucky, you may be rehoused, but you will be rehoused at the expense of another family which is expecting to be rehoused, but which, because you become a high priority case, will be displaced and will have to wait longer than they expected."
That is the real problem in the whole field of rent restriction, and, therefore, if we are to preserve any dregs of the balance between humanity and common sense in this awful Bill by allowing these transfers, we would not only be doing something in the interests of preserving a decent standard of life, but would also be preventing the shameless exploitation of these unfortunate people.
The House, in considering this new Clause, is addressing itself to a real social problem, though I think that the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl) much exaggerated when he called it the greatest social problem of the day.
The problem is that, when controlled or statutory tenancies end, the houses are often sold with vacant possession, and thus transferred from the letting field into the ownership field, so that the total amount of houses available for letting is diminished. That, in turn, arises from the big difference at the present time between the value of property for letting and the value of the same property with vacant possession. This big difference is itself a product of scarcity.
We are really facing one of the many consequences of scarcity, and the House in all such matters must decide what is to be its general approach to the problem of scarcity. Will it be the approach by way of control and restriction for preference? Or will it be the approach by way of using every possible means towards an expansion of supply?
The hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer), who knows a great deal from many years' personal experience of the realities of this matter, pointed out the very important fact that, in the decade before the war, this sort of thing was quite uncommon. For most part, the landlord of rent-restricted property was more concerned with getting another tenant when one tenancy came to an end than with selling the freehold.
What were the reasons for that? They were two. The first was that the provision of new accommodation at ever falling prices was going on tremendously year by year, so a man who contemplated buying a freehold would not have dreamed of looking at a rent-restricted house 40 or 60 years old when he could go with his £10 deposit and his building society advance and buy a modern house in a nice suburb of the same town. So there was no market for that type of property at a price in excess of the capitalisation of the rent. That was one reason.
The other reason was that the rent corresponded much more nearly than controlled rents do at present with the rental value of that accommodation, and, in particular, that it was practicable for anybody who owned such accommodation to keep it in a reasonable condition and preserve the asset out of the rent.
It is the disappearance since the war of these two factors which has created this particular consequence of scarcity. On the one hand, because there has not, until very recently, been a prospect of getting an alternative freehold house of a better type, therefore if one wanted to buy a house at all, and if one had the means to buy, it was nearly always an old house which one had to buy. Thus these rent-restricted houses with vacant possession acquired a temporary scarcity value as freehold purchases. On the other hand, we have had recognised on both sides of the House the situation that present rents are not, by and large, sufficient to enable property to be maintained in good repair so that the asset is preserved.
Which way are we going to set about this problem? Are we to say that we will strengthen rent control, prolong tenancies and tighten up for the future the controls reimposed in 1939 at the beginning of the war? Or are we going to take the course adopted by my right hon. Friend—make the rent such as will, at any rate, enable the owner of the house to keep the asset in existence and in reasonable condition, and, on the other hand, multiply by every possible means and encouragement the supply of new houses to buy as an alternative to the very bad buys which, I agree with the hon. Member for Widnes, these rent-restricted houses represent? Those are the two courses.
My hon. Friend the Member for Handsworth (Sir E. Boyle) was quite right in saying that every turn of the screw is a disincentive. Where there are houses for which there is no standard rent and to which the new Clause which was added to the Bill last night does not apply, the owners might well in various circumstances have considered letting them. With this threat hanging over them, they are less likely to do so.
The general question is how we are to deal with scarcity. That is what the country will want to read from these proceedings. Do we deal with it like hon. Gentlemen opposite, by increasing controls and by screwing down limitations—
Or screwing down the poor people—
Or by increasing the supply and enabling the existing stock of houses to be kept in repair? I believe that in a Bill which follows the latter path, a new Clause such as is now proposed, would be entirely out of place.
5.0 p.m.
The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) analysed the cause of the existence of this sort of property. I do not quarrel in regard to pre-war experience, but we are dealing with a social problem of today. Whether the hon. Gentleman is right or wrong, it is no answer to say that the Government's general housing policy will solve the problem, the human problem, of people who are being turned out into the street.
What are we to do about it? Taking the most optimistic view of housing prospects, it will be a very long time before rent restriction and control can come to an end, but by the efflux of time the problem will become a clamorous one with which any Government must deal.
I must say a few words about the speech made by the hon. Member for Handsworth (Sir E. Boyle). For a Birmingham Member it was most remarkable. I invite the hon. Member to make that speech in his own constituency. He would probably be surprised at the reaction. To suggest to the 60,000 people on the Birmingham housing register that all they have to do is to insert an advertisement is fantastic nonsense. I am surprised that a Birmingham Member should make such a suggestion. The problem is just as severe in Handsworth as anywhere else.
The hon. Member advanced a remarkable disincentive argument. He said the Clause would be a disincentive to people to let houses. The whole point is that at the present time, as a consequence of the operation of the law, houses are being taken out of the letting pool and are being sold at a profit for the landlord. The incentive is now precisely in the opposite direction. That is what we are complaining about.
What are the Government going to do about this very real social problem, which in the last five years has become increasingly serious? More and more landlords are taking steps to turn people on to the streets. It is no good talking in terms of incentives or disincentives, or of general policy. What are the Government going to do about this serious social problem which becomes worse from year to year?
We have had a useful and interesting debate, with contributions from both sides of the House. The hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer) said that this was a great human problem. There is no doubt that the transmission of rent-controlled tenancies is a great human problem. He implied that on this side we had no personal knowledge of it. Well, I can tell him that I have a great deal of personal knowledge of it, because I lived in a rent-controlled house for many years with my grandmother, who was a widow. My grandfather predeceased her by a great number of years.
The rent payable was very small. I forget the figure, but it was only a few shillings a week. When it came to removing gas and putting electricity into the house, my grandmother said, "I will never spend a penny on the landlord's house if it is the last thing I do"; so for about 10 years I lived there with gas only while everyone else in the street had electricity. I have great personal knowledge. My grandmother wanted to transmit that tenancy to her son. She was in possession of the house, which was not a very good one; by modern standards it was bad. It had external lavatories and that sort of thing. I had personal knowledge of that house, and I know that there was a deep human problem.
The hon. Member for Sparkbrook went on to say that on 9th December, 1952—which was a great day in the history of this country, because it was my birthday—my right hon. Friend said that the Government would deal with this matter when they made a comprehensive review of the Rent Restrictions Acts. That may be true, but the Measure we are considering today was not intended to be a comprehensive review of the Rent Restrictions Acts. My right hon. Friend, from the moment he introduced the Bill and in debate on the Gracious Speech, has never said that that was his intention. If we were undertaking a review of the Rent Restrictions Acts many other considerations would come in. This naturally is one of them, but the review is not being done on this particular Bill.
How many tenants will be turned out into the streets before the Bill comes into operation without the proposed new Clause?
I will go into the question later of what can be done about it. Let me point out that the Government have been in office for two and a half years, and that the previous Government were in office for six and a half to seven years. The hon. Gentleman was a supporter of that Government, and during that time I never noticed any great anxiety on his part to pose this question.
Now let me come to what was said by the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl), who has a great knowledge of local authority matters. I thought he was less than fair to my right hon. Friend about what happened in the Committee upstairs. I took a note of what he said, which was that my right hon. Friend stated that there was no evidence of a serious problem. I have looked up the proceedings in Committee. I see that the hon. Gentleman has also refreshed his mind with a copy. I find that in answer to an interruption from the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. deFreitas), my right hon. Friend said—
The hon. Gentleman cannot quote what was said in the Committee.
I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. My right hon. Friend was pointing out to the Committee—[HON. MEMBERS: "Quote it."] I am not prepared, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to follow the rule of procedure suggested by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan). I should have thought I could have quoted from the Committee proceedings.
The hon. Gentleman can quote from them if he wishes to.
Can the hon. Gentleman quote from the proceedings in Committee?
He can quote from them if he likes. The Bill has been reported to the House.
I am obliged to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for that Ruling. As I am in order, I should like to say what my right hon. Friend did say on that occasion, the 20th Sitting of the Committee. He said:
"I should not have said that there was much difference between 1954 and 1951 when hon. Gentlemen opposite were responsible for the government of the country. The only thing which has happened in the last three years is an immense increase in house building, so I do not think that a strong point has been made here."
That is at the top of the column. At the beginning of the last paragraph in that column my right hon. Friend said:
"I have tried to weigh up this matter, and I have no evidence that there is a sudden flood of evictions which is creating a new situation."
My right hon. Friend was seeking to prove that there had been no drastic deterioration in the position between 1951 and 1954. In other words, he was saying that if there was a problem now it certainly was a problem then, and he invited the attention of the Committee—
I did not quote that particular passage about 1954 and 1951 out of charity to the right hon. Gentleman, because it is such a moth-eaten argument—"Because the Labour Government didn't do it, we are not going to do our duty."—What the right hon. Gentleman said, referring to the Act, was:
"I think that has worked pretty well. I do not think there has been any great—
Oh, really!
I do not think there has been this sudden deterioration."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee C; 16th March, 1954, c. 981–2.]
Order. I gave a perfectly correct Ruling. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) ought not to say what I heard him say.
There is some misunderstanding. I was talking to my hon. Friend.
The right hon. Gentleman was looking at me when he said that.
I give the hon. Gentleman the point that he is one of the most charitable Members of the House in assisting the Government in their duties, and we are most obliged to him. He has certainly helped us on the technical side of this business because of his great knowledge of it. However, I have to try to finish my speech by 5.15, so I must press on.
The purpose of the new Clause is quite simple. It proposes passing on a statutory tenancy from one member of a family to another ad infinitum. It would give a family the right to stay in a property for all time irrespective of any hardship to landlord or tenant. As my right hon. Friend said in Committee upstairs, there is undoubtedly hardship in the case of transmission of tenancies, but there is hardship on both sides, on the landlords as well as on the tenants. I refer not to the hardship arising from occupation only but to financial hardship.
No one has so far cited a case of the hardships to landlords, but in my constituency there is a widow who was left four houses. Her husband worked most of his life, and, like most thrifty people in the North of England, put his money into bricks and mortar. They did so because they considered that a sound investment. This widow's sole income comes from those four houses. She has shown me a statement drawn up by her estate agents, and it shows that at the present moment she is suffering a loss on those four houses. This new Clause would condemn that widow to make a loss on those four houses as long as that property stood erect in good condition.
There are hardships on both sides, sometimes to the landlords, sometimes to the tenants, and the question is how to balance them. The hon. Member for Erdington (Mr. J. Silverman) said people bought the houses knowing they were rent-controlled. However, they may have bought them thinking they were rent-controlled only until the tenants died or moved, and that then they could give them to their sons, perhaps men just coming out of the Army. If the new Clause were accepted that object could not be achieved. If the new Clause were accepted a landlord who had not had access to his property for 40 years would not have access to it for another 40 or 60 years.
The new Clause draws no line on which to balance the hardships of the tenants and the landlords. My right hon. Friend has decided that there should be a line somewhere, as was decided in the original Rent Act, and the line he has drawn is on the two-tenancy principle. To do otherwise would be to create greater hardships than those that would be alleviated.
I hope the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend have not been unduly influenced by the widow. She may have been a railway shareholder. Besides, a lot of this property is held by limited companies and others who bought it as a mere investment. Surely, one ought to bear in mind that consideration?
I was following the example of hon. Members on both sides of the House who have instanced cases of personal hardship. I am not trying to say that all widows who own this sort of property are hard hit or have no other sources of income. The widow in my constituency to whom I referred has scarcely any resources. I am only saying that there is hardship for the landlords as well as for the tenants. If we accept the new Clause a house will be permanently requisitioned by a family at a fixed rent for all time. Surely it is better to be honest about it and buy the house and pay a proper price. It would be a better method of achieving our object to look after the houses and buy them and be honest about it, instead of saying to the landlords, "You must pass them on to somebody at a fixed rent."
5.15 p.m.
Moreover, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) said, the new Clause would reduce the pool of houses for letting. For generations, perhaps, landlords would not be able to let the houses again. They could only sell them. For all these reasons, we cannot accept the new Clause. I know the Opposition feel deeply about it, and I know the deep human emotions that inspired it, and I sympathise with them, but I honestly believe that greater harm would be done by the new Clause than good would be achieved by it. So I ask the House to reject it.
I think that if we were not suffering under the threat if the Guillotine the House would be reasonably full and there would be far more uneasiness about what we are doing than there is. Because hon. Members know very well that a Division must occur soon, they are not as concerned as they otherwise would be to find out what is the issue before us. The Parliamentary Secretary started by saying that one of the reasons why the Government could not accept the new Clause was that they were not proposing by this Bill to amend the Rent Restrictions Acts.
Not comprehensively.
If that was the reason, it would have been much better if the hon. Gentleman had stated it and then sat down. That, at least, would have been some reason. However, he went on to give other reasons why, even if the Government had been reviewing the Rent Restrictions Acts, they would not accept the new Clause. Hon. Members opposite must understand this. When we go to discuss these issues in the country, we shall know that they have stated through their spokesman their views about this matter, whether they are revising the Rent Restrictions Acts or not. What they have said, as the hon. Gentleman said in the last part of his speech, is that on balance this is a more just proceeding. That is what they have said. So we have to deal with it strictly from that point of view.
The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) has been as frank with the House, as he always is. He would like the price mechanism to get rid of a shortage of housing accommodation, despite the fact that it has failed to do so anywhere among the Western nations. We had this discussion in Committee upstairs. Despite the fact that even where the price mechanism has operated in the wildest, most unrestricted fashion, in the United States of America, there is still a prevailing shortage of small houses. Despite that fact, the hon. Member would still allow the price mechanism to operate to get rid of the shortage. In other words, he would prefer to allow rents to rise, to allow the prices of houses to rise. If the hon. Member had had his way and that had been allowed to happen in 1945 to 1946, there would have been riots over housing all over Great Britain, and probably the hon. Member would not have been here today.
Hon. Members must face this problem frankly. It is common ground that for many years to come there will be an acute—we hope it will grow less acute—shortage of good houses in Great Britain. The hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Hay) sniggers, but is that not what the Minister himself said yesterday? The Minister very fairly said that Part I of the Bill is devoted to patching up slums because we have not enough labour and material to get rid of them. In other words, there will be a shortage of good houses for many years to come. That is why slums are being patched up. The hon. Member for Henley shakes his head. Why, then are they being patched up?
I was disagreeing with what the right hon. Gentleman said a little earlier, because I do not think his interpretation of my right hon. Friend's remarks is accurate.
What the Minister said, quite rightly, was that a large number of houses have been condemned as slums, that we should like to pull them down, but that for a very long time a large number of people will have to live in those slums until it becomes a practical possibility to pull them down and put good houses in their place. In the meantime, therefore, we are to help the local authorities to patch these houses and make them fit to live in.
That is what the Minister said and that is the purpose of Part I. Indeed, in the main, it has no other purpose except that. Furthermore—and I italiscise the same point—we asked that the standards of fitness should be raised higher than they are in the Bill. The Minister replied, "What is the use of classifying more houses as slums when you cannot pull down the houses which are already classified as slums?"
Under those two headings, the Minister, with the support of his hon. Friends, has declared that for a very long time to come, no matter who is in power, there will be a shortage of good houses in Great Britain. Does the hon. Member for Henley wish to contradict that?
I was admiring the ingenuity with which the right hon. Gentleman got out of that difficulty.
If the hon. Member thought I was in a difficulty, he must be having a very easy time during his life. I should have thought that the argument was perfectly clear.
At a time when there will be a shortage of housing accommodation, especially for the working classes, for years ahead, hon. Members opposite accept the logic put forward by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West that the price of houses must be allowed to rise, that more and more houses must go out of control, because that is the Conservative method of dealing with scarcity. In other words, if the Conservative Party had the courage to do it, they would abolish rent control at once; but they are hoping that death will do it for them.
An increasing number of people are dying, because a much larger proportion of the population is advancing into the higher age groups and there is therefore a relative rise in the death rate. That means that a larger and larger number of houses pass from rent control. That, too, is not denied. We have been twitted many times because we did not do these things between 1945 and 1951. My hon. Friends must remember that we have been accused because in those years we did not bring about a complete revolution. I hope the lesson will be borne in mind when we have the next chance; we ought to do very much more, more quickly, than we did during our last period of office, otherwise we shall be taunted by the Conservatives for not having done it.
The problem becomes increasingly acute because more and more houses are passing into this category—and that is a problem which we face in the constituencies. It is because this is becoming a graver social problem, as has been admitted, that we think it ought to be dealt with in this way. The purpose of rent control was not only to protect the individual tenant of the house; that was only one leg of the argument. The other leg was to keep as many houses as possible in the rent pool at reasonable rents.
The death of the tenant who was in occupation at the time when rent control was put on is no reason why the house should now be lost to the renting pool. If it is, the other reason for rent control disappears. It is not merely in order to modify the contractual relationship between tenants and landlord by putting a ceiling on the rent and giving security of tenure during the life-time of that tenant; the other reason which Parliament advanced, and which Parliament renewed in 1939, was to keep that class of property under control, within the renting pool at reasonable rents.
We are not answered at all when hon. Members opposite say that when a tenant or second tenant has died there is no justification for the retention of rent control. On their own showing the justification for keeping the house under control will exist, because of the shortage of good houses, for many years to come. Hon. Members opposite have no case at all, and it seems to us quite unjustified that they should refuse to accept the new Clause.
In framing the Bill, the Minister has found himself face to face with a difficulty for which he is not responsible. He cannot apply an automatic increase of rent to all property because a number of houses fell from under control between the wars and their rents are therefore very high. They are back under control by the 1939 decision, but one of the Minister's difficulties is that by letting houses in this category slip from under control there is such a variation in rents that applying a simple percentage increase is a remedy denied to him. If we allow these houses, too, to pass out of control, not only will many of them be sold but many will be rented at higher rents, because the rents will no longer be controlled.
That is not so.
I am sorry; I accept that. In the main they would be sold, because what people want is a quick profit. They would be sold for an appreciated capital value. That argument has been admitted.
The right hon. Gentleman's argument is all wrong.
The argument is not wrong. These houses would be kept within the renting pool if die new Clause were carried—that is the argument; but if they are not kept within the renting pool they will be sold at an appreciated value. Hon. Members opposite have not made their case at all good. They are prepared to allow increasing hardship upon the population when they could easily prevent it and could protect the tenants by doing as we suggest.
5.30 p.m.
It is worth repeating an argument that was advanced upstairs. If the right hon. Gentleman were Minister of Health as well as Minister of Housing and Local Government, the argument would appeal to him on a departmental basis. There is no more difficult problem facing modern society than looking after aged people. It is not only one of the most expensive aspects of health administration, but is a very grave human problem. We are by modern drugs keeping people alive much longer than formerly. Hospital accommodation is strained often beyond the ability of the hospitals by having to deal with chronic sickness, and hospital authorities and doctors are anxious that old people should be kept at home as long as possible.
I do not suggest one can show statistics to prove that what the Government are refusing to do would add much to the expenditure of the Minister of Health, but it is incontestable that many young people, by looking after their parents, are saving the nation considerable sums of money and their parents much suffering. It was stated upstairs, and it is worth making the point now, that quite often when people are getting old their children might go to live with them and look after them if they were sure that when their parents died they themselves would not be homeless. That is an important consideration.
The Minister of Housing does not have to meet that problem, but his colleague the Minister of Health does have to meet it. What the right hon. Gentleman is now doing is making the difficulties of his colleague greater, because he should want to keep these houses in the classification where the sons and daughters would be anxious to look after the old people. Suppose that people do that. I am not trying to wring the withers of hon. Members opposite; it is an acute social problem. If a daughter goes to live with her mother, she and her husband may themselves leave a rent controlled house. But they respond to the call of filial affection and go to live with the father and mother and look after them until they die. Then, the daughter and her husband are rendered homeless or must buy the house in which they live at an exorbitant price.
Surely hon. Members opposite ought not, for the sake of a purely academic defence of private property, to tolerate an infliction of that sort. Hon. Members opposite should realise that in these conditions the owner of the house is being fortuitously advantaged by the death of his tenant. He has not done anything at all about it. His colleague, a brother owner of property, because his tenant lives longer, does not have the same advantages. Just because an owner happens to have an older person living in his house or death comes sooner, he is
expected to be allowed to have his capital appreciation earlier than the owner of another property nearby; and if he is to be denied that, it is said to be hardship to property.
We shall divide on the Clause, because we are convinced that when the country reads what is happening today, in conjunction with what happened last night, when new houses will not be controlled and old houses will pass from under control, people will realise how the party opposite are always prepared to put the interests of property in front of the interests of the people.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 251; Noes, 269.
Division No. 66.] AYES [5.35 p.m. Acland, Sir Richard Deer, G. Janner, B. Albu, A. H. Delargy, H. J. Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) Dodds, N. N. Jeger, George (Goole) Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Donnelly, D. L. Jeger, Mrs. Lena Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) Driberg, T. E. N. Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich) Johnson, James (Rugby) Awbery, S. S. Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Johnston, Douglas (Paisley) Bacon, Miss Alice Edelman, M. Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Baird, J. Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Balfour, A. Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) Keenan, W. Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Kenyon, C. Bartley, P. Fernyhough, E. Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Fienburgh, W. King, Dr. H. M. Bence, C. R. Finch, H. J. Lee, Frederick (Newton) Benn, Hon. Wedgwood Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.) Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Benson, G. Follick, M. Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Beswick, F. Foot, M. M. Lewis, Arthur Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) Forman, J. C. Lindgren, G. S. Bing, G. H. C. Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Lipton, Lt.-Col. M Blackburn, F. Freeman, John (Watford) Logan, D. G. Blenkinsop, A. Freeman, Peter (Newport) MacColl, J. E. Blyton, W. R. Gibson, C. W. McGhee, H. G. Boardman, H. Gooch, E. G. McGovern, J. Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) Mclnnes, J. Bowden, H. W. Grey, C. F. McKay, John (Wallsend) Bowles, F. G. Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) McLeavy, F. Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Brockway, A. F. Griffiths, William (Exchange) MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Brock, Dryden (Halifax) Grimond, J. Mainwaring, W. H. Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Brown, Thomas (Ince) Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Burton, Miss F. E. Hamilton, W. W. Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.) Hannan, W. Mason, Roy Callaghan, L. J. Hardy, E. A. Mayhew, C. P. Carmichael, J. Hargreaves, A. Mellish, R. J. Castle, Mrs. B. A. Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.) Messer, Sir F. Champion, A. J. Hastings, S. Mikardo, Ian Chapman, W. D. Hayman, F. H. Mitchison, G. R. Chetwynd, G. R Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.) Monslow, W. Clunie, J. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis) Moody, A. S. Coldrick, W. Herbison, Miss M. Morgan, Dr. H. B. W. Collick, P. H. Hobson, C. R. Morley, R. Corbet, Mrs. Freda Holman, P. Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Cove, W. G. Holmes, Horace Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.) Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Houghton, Douglas Mort, D. L. Crosland, C. A. R. Hoy, J. H. Moyle, A. Crossman, R. H. S Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) Mulley, F. W. Cullen, Mrs. A. Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Murray, J. D. Daines, P. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Nally, W. Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Darling, George (Hillsborough) Hynd, H. (Accrington) Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Oliver, G. H. Davies, Harold (Leek) Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Orbach, M. de Freitas, Geoffrey Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Oswald, T. Padley, W. E. Short, E. W. Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn Paget, R. T. Shurmer, P. L. E. Viant, S. P. Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Silverman, Julius (Erdington) Wade, D. W. Palmer, A. M. F. Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) Warbey, W. N. Pannell, Charles Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.) Pargiter, G. A. Skeffington, A. M. Weitzman, D. Parker, J. Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield) Wells, Percy (Faversham) Parkin, B. T. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) Wells, William (Walsall) Pearson, A. Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.) West, D. G. Peart, T. F. Snow, J. W. Wheeldon, W. E. Plummer, Sir Leslie Sorensen, R. W. White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint) Popplewell, E. Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.) Porter, G. Sparks, J. A. Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Steele, T. Wigg, George Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) Willey, F. T. Proctor, W. T. Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. Williams, David (Neath) Pryde, D. J. Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall) Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery) Pursey, Cmdr. H. Stress, Dr. Barnett Williams, Ronald (Wigan) Rankin, John Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'H'y) Reeves, J. Swingler, S. T. Williams, W. R. (Droylsden) Reid, Thomas (Swindon) Sylvester, G. O. Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.) Reid, William (Camlachie) Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) Rhodes, H. Taylor, John (West Lothian) Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.) Robens, Rt. Hon. A. Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth) Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside) Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Thomas, George (Cardiff) Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.) Wyatt, W. L. Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) Yates, V. F. Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) Thornton, E. Ross, William Timmons, J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES: Royle, C. Tomney, F. Mr. Wallace and Mr. Wilkins. Shackleton, E. A. A. Turner-Samuels, M.
NOES Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Hay, John Alport, C. J. M. Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood) Head, Rt. Hon. A. H. Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.) Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J. Davidson, Viscountess Heath, Edward Arbuthnot, John Deedes, W. F. Henderson, John (Cathcart) Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) Digby, S. Wingfield Higgs, J. M. C. Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Dodds-Parker, A. D. Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) Baldwin, A. E. Donaldson, Cmdr C. E. McA. Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Banks, Col. C. Donner, Sir P. W. Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Barber, Anthony Doughty, C. J. A. Hirst, Geoffrey Barlow, Sir John Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm Holland-Martin, C. J Baxter, A. B. Drayson, G. B. Hollis, M. C. Beach, Maj. Hicks Dugdale, Rt. Hon. Sir T. (Richmond) Hope, Lord John Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Duncan, Capt. J A. L. Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Duthie, W. S. Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.) Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M. Horobin, I. M. Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence Bennett, William (Woodside) Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Erroll, F. J. Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Birch, Nigel Fell, A. Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J. Bishop, F. P. Finlay, Graeme Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.) Black, C. W. Fisher, Nigel Hutchison, James (Scotstoun) Bossom, Sir A. C. Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F. Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M. Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A Fletcher-Cooke, C. Hylton-Foster, H. B. H. Boyle, Sir Edward Ford, Mrs. Patricia Iremonger, T. L. Braine, B. R. Fort, R. Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Braithwaite, Sir Gurney Foster, John Jennings, Sir Roland Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H. Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone) Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) Jones, A. (Hall Green) Brooman-White, R. C. Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok) Kaberry, D. Browne, Jack (Govan) Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Kerby, Capt. H. B. Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G T Gammans, L. D. Kerr, H. W. Bullard, D. G. Garner-Evans, E. H Lambert, Hon. G. Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. Glover, D. Lambton, Viscount Burden, F. F. A. Godber, J. B. Lancaster, Col. C. G. Butcher, Sir Herbert Gomme-Duncan, Col. A Langford-Holt, J. A. Campbell, Sir David Gough, C. F. H Leather, E. H. C. Cary, Sir Robert Gower, H. R. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Channon, H. Graham, Sir Fergus Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T. Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W) Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Lindsay, Martin Cole, Norman Hall, John (Wycombe) Linstead, Sir H. N. Colegate, W. A. Harden, J. R. E. Llewellyn, D. T. Conant, Maj. R. J. E. Hare, Hon. J. H. Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral) Cooper-Key, E. M. Harris, Reader (Heston) Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Longden, Gilbert Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) Low, A. R. W. Crouch, R. F. Harvie-Watt, Sir George Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) Lucas, P. B. (Brentford) Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare) Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Osborne, C. Storey, S. Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. Page, R. G. Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) McAdden, S. J. Peake, Rt. Hon. O. Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray) McCallum, Major D. Perkins, Sir Robert Studholme, H. G. McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S Peto, Brig. C. H. M. Summers, G. S. Macdonald, Sir Peter Peyton, J. W. W. Sutcliffe, Sir Harold Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry Pickthorn, K. W. M. Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Mackie, J. H. (Galloway) Pilkington, Capt. R. A. Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) Maclean, Fitzroy Pitt, Miss E. M. Teeling, W. Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W.) Powell, J. Enoch Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford) MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty) Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L. Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway) Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) Profumo, J. D. Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E. Raikes, Sir Victor Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.) Markham, Major Sir Frank Ramsden, J. E. Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth) Marlowe, A. A. H. Redmayne, M. Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N Marples, A. E. Rees-Davies, W. R. Tilney, John Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin) Remnant, Hon. P. Touche, Sir Gordon Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton) Renton, D. L. M. Turner, H. F. L. Maude, Angus Ridsdale, J. E. Turton, R. H. Maudling, R. Roberts, Peter (Heeley) Tweedsmuir, Lady Maydon, Lt.-Comdr, S. L. C Robertson, Sir David Vane, W. M. F. Medlicott, Brig. F. Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.) Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. Mellor, Sir John Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) Molson, A. H. E. Roper, Sir Harold Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone) Moore, Sir Thomas Russell, R. S. Wall, P. H. B. Morrison, John (Salisbury) Ryder, Capt. R. E. D. Ward, Hon. George (Worcester) Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth) Nabarro, G. D. N. Scott, R. Donald Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. Neave, Airey Scott-Miller, Comdr. R. Watkinson, H. A. Nicholls, Harmar Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster) Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington) Wellwood, W. Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.) Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood) Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay) Nield, Basil (Chester) Snadden, W. McN. Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.) Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P. Soames, Capt. C. Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter) Nugent, G. R. H. Spearman, A. C. M. Wills,G. Nutting, Anthony Speir, R. M. Wood, Hon. R. Oakshott, H. O. Spens, Rt Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.) O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard TELLERS FOR THE NOES: Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Stevens, G. P. Sir Cedric Drewe and Mr. Vosper Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) Steward, W. A. (Woodwich, W.)
New Clause.—(AMENDMENT OF PRINCIPAL ACT TO ENABLE LOCAL AUTHORITIES TO SANCTION AND BRING INTO EFFECT CERTAIN EXCHANGES OF TENANCIES.)
After section one hundred and four of the principal Act, there shall be inserted the following:—
Exchanges of tenancies
104A.—(l) The tenants of any two houses in the district of any one local authority, if they desire to exchange their tenancies and if the landlord's consent as regards one or both of the tenancies has in the opinion of the tenant been unreasonably withheld, may jointly apply to the local authority to sanction an exchange of tenancies and the local authority, if satisfied that such consent as aforesaid has been unreasonably withheld and that the exchange applied for would directly or indirectly facilitate the performance of the local authority's duties and functions under Part IV or under this Part of this Act may, subject to the provisions of this section, sanction the exchange.
(2) In determining for the purpose of the last foregoing subsection whether consent has been unreasonably withheld, the local authority shall have regard to the conditions of the tenancy:
Provided that, if such conditions restrict or prohibit an assignment of the tenancy, the local authority, if satisfied that in the circumstances of the case it would be reasonable for the
(3) In determining for the purpose of subsection (1) of this section whether an exchange would directly or indirectly facilitate the performance of the functions and duties mentioned in the said subsection the local authority may have regard to the housing conditions in the district, to the extent to which over-crowding or other unsatisfactory conditions exist and to the needs of the district with respect to the provision of housing accommodation.
(4) On an application being made under subsection (1) of this section the local authority may give notice in the prescribed form to the landlords of the two said houses and may afford to those landlords a reasonable opportunity of being heard before a person appointed for the purpose by the local authority.
(5) The sanction of the local authority under subsection (1) of this section shall be given by notices in the prescribed form (in this section called 'notices of sanction') served on the said landlords and the said tenants and no notice of sanction shall be served until—
(6) An exchange of tenancies under this section shall take effect at such time as may be specified in the notices of sanction.
(7) An exchange of tenancies under this section shall have effect as and shall be deemed to constitute in relation to each tenancy an assignment of the outgoing tenant's interest by the outgoing tenant to the incoming tenant with the consent of the landlord:
Provided that a consent deemed to be given by a landlord under this subsection shall not constitute any breach of covenant or agreement by that landlord in relation to any other person.
(8)This section shall apply to exchange of tenancies where one of the landlords is the local authority."—[ Mr. de Freitas. ]
Brought up, and read the First time.
5.45 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
We have only 15 minutes to cover several new Clauses, and I hope we shall finish this one and begin another. The scope of this new Clause is limited, but its purpose is important. It deals with a case where there are two houses and both tenants want an exchange but the landlord withholds his consent in respect of one. Under those conditions the tenants can, under this Clause, apply to the local authority. The landlord, of course, would have the opportunity of stating his case, and if the local authority were satisfied that consent had been unreasonably withheld and that the exchange would assist the local authority in the proper performance of its housing duties—unlike a court of law the local authority could take into consideration such facts as its duty as a housing authority—then it could sanction the exchange. Once the exchange were sanctioned, the tenants could change places.
Of course, a case has to be made out for such a scheme. I am sure that hon. Members who represent large industrial cities and towns know of cases where landlords, by unreasonably refusing to consent to such exchanges, prevent an exchange which would not only benefit both tenants but the community as a whole. The community problem is the proper use of accommodation, and the national problem is as much that of too many empty rooms as of too few houses.
A typical case which would be covered by this Clause is that of a husband and wife and several children living in a small flat in the centre of a town while an elderly couple, whose family had grown up and gone away, were living in a much larger house further out. The object of the new Clause is to facilitate such an exchange where one landlord has refused to give his consent.
I hope that the argument against the new Clause will not be a lack of trust in local authorities. I have served on a local authority which was predominantly Labour and I represent a city the local authority of which is predominantly non-Labour. I would trust both of them to administer this new Clause.
I beg to second the Motion.
My interest in this matter arises from my experiences in Sheffield. The hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. H. Brooke) singled out Sheffield when he was speaking about a sub-committee of the Central Housing Advisory Committee dealing with an exchange of tenancies. In Sheffield the housing department has been very successful in doing what every hon. Member in this House wants to see done, namely, tenants being moved freely round to suit their circumstances, their work, the size of their families and so on. In Sheffield quite a number of private landlords have joined in so that the pool of houses in which tenants can be exchanged is very large. However, a number of private landlords are still outside and, as a result, many of their tenants suffer a lot of unnecessary hardship. It is to get rid of that hardship that this Clause has been moved, and we hope that it will be sympathetically accepted.
I have brought along a number of cases which have come to my notice but, in view of the time, I shall not bring them forward. They prove our point adequately and would answer the reasonable objections, in some cases, which the right hon. Gentleman put forward when this matter was discussed in Committee, particularly the objection about the local authority being the arbiter in cases in which it was a party. We believe that not only would justice be done if the local authority had the powers in this Clause to deal with the cases where the private landlords unreasonably withhold permission to exchange tenancy, but that the better property owners in Sheffield would support the local authority having the powers suggested in this Clause.
There is one legal point that worries me. I understand that, except where there is complete prohibition of exchanges as set forth in a tenancy agreement, permission cannot reasonably be withheld if two tenants want to exchange houses, but a number of agents acting for property owners in Sheffield display notices over the door of their offices to the effect that exchanges of tenancies cannot be allowed. That might be illegal and it is a point to look into. At any rate, this new Clause should be considered sympathetically so that all unnecessary hardship can be taken away from the exchange of tenancies.
We discussed this matter at considerable length in Committee, as indeed most of the new Clauses. On this matter we bad an interesting debate and there was a general measure of agreement as to the purpose we had in mind. I shall not go into the legal technicalities, except to say that the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) kindly brought to my attention the fact that the new Clause does not achieve anything which he wished it to achieve. However, I will not take that point because, if it were to be so, we could deal with the statutory tenant by adding those words to the new Clause.
The right hon. Gentleman is no doubt aware that four words were left out by mistake.
I understand that, but since they were not in on the Committee stage—
They were.
During the Committee stage the hon. Gentleman called my special attention to the fact that they were left out by mistake. When I saw that they had been left out again by mistake on the Report stage, I thought the mistake was something more forceful. But I do not take the point, except to say that I did not want to be led into the legal points put forward by the hon. Member who seconded the Motion. I do not think they are germane to the main purpose, which is whether we can do something by compulsory methods to promote the exchange of tenancies that we are all trying to promote by voluntary methods in the ordinary sense of the word "tenancies."
The report of the sub-committee of the Central Housing Advisory Committee was valuable and I am indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. H. Brooke), who is chairman of that subcommittee, which unanimously reached the view that it would be a mistake at this stage to take compulsory powers. I am all the more interested because one of the members of that sub-committee was Mr. A. R. Stamp, who has as much experience of housing as any other man inside or outside this House, being chairman of the Housing Committee of the London County Council. When he added his name to this view, I felt it was my duty to give a trial for a reasonable time to their unanimous decision and recommendation.
The sub-committee gave a number of reasons which I will not go into in detail, and I will end by saying that I have already carried out what I undertook to do at the end of the Committee stage. I have written to the chairman of the sub-committee and have asked him to call its members together again to see whether, in view of all these discussions and of any new evidence which has come to light, they would wish to reconsider this question and make a new proposal to me as to whether, by administrative or legislative action, we could do anything further to promote something which is supported in all quarters of the House.
Question put, and negatived.
New Clause.—(SET-OFF AGAINST RENT, &C, OF CERTAIN EXPENDITURE BY TENANT ON REPAIRS.)
(1) On the service of a notice of increase under section twenty of this Act or at any time before the date specified in such notice and hereinafter called "the specified date," the tenant may serve on the landlord a counter-notice in the prescribed form containing a declaration (hereinafter called a "tenant's declaration")—
(2) Within fourteen days after the service of such counter-notice as aforesaid the landlord may apply to the tribunal constituted under the Act of 1946 for the district in which the dwelling-house is situate, to determine whether the tenant's declaration was correct as regards any one or more of the matters mentioned under ( a ), ( b ) and ( c ) in the last foregoing subsection and the tribunal, if satisfied that the tenant's declaration was incorrect in any one or more of the said matters, may amend or annul the tenant's declaration, whereupon the tenant's declaration, if amended, shall have effect, and be deemed always to have had effect, as amended, or, if annulled, shall be, and be deemed always to have been, of no effect.
(3) A determination of a tribunal under the last foregoing subsection shall be final and conclusive and, save and subject as in the last foregoing subsection stated, the validity
Brought up, and read the First time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
In view of the Guillotine, I will merely say that this new Clause proposes that the landlord shall not have the benefit of repairs which have been done by the tenant over a long period but that there should be a reduction in rent.
I beg to second the Motion.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 253; Noes, 273.
Division No.67] AYES [6.0 p.m. Acland, Sir Richard Cove, W. G. Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.) Adams, Richard Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Hastings, S. Albu, A. H. Crosland, C. A. R. Hayman, F. H. Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) Crossman, R. H. S. Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.) Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Cullen, Mrs. A. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis) Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) Daines, P. Herbison, Miss M. Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Hobson, C. R. Awbery, S. S. Darling, George (Hillsborough) Holman, P. Bacon, Miss Alice Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) Holmes, Horace Baird, J. Davies, Harold (Leek) Houghton, Douglas Balfour, A. de Freitas, Geoffrey Hoy, J. H. Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. Deer, G. Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) Bartley, P. Dolargy, H. J. Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Betlenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Dodds, N. N. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Bence, C. R. Donnelly, D. L. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Bonn, Hon. Wedgwood Driberg, T. E. N. Hynd, H. (Accrington) Benson, G. Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich) Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Beswick, F. Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) Edelman, M. Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Bing, G. H. C. Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Blackburn, F. Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) Janner, B. Blenkinsop, A. Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. Blyton, W. R. Fernyhough, E. Jeger, George (Goole) Boardman, H. Fienburgh, W. Jeger, Mrs. Lena Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Finch, H. J. Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) Bowden, H. W. Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.) Johnston, Douglas (Paisley) Bowles, F. G. Folliok, M. Jones, David (Hartlepool) Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Foot, M. M. Jones, Jack (Rothcrham) Brockway, A. F. Forman, J. C. Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Brook, Dryden (Halifax) Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Keenan, W. Broughton, Dr. A. D. D Freeman, John (Watford) Kenyon, C. Brown, Thomas (Ince) Freeman, Peter (Newport) Key, Rt. Hon. C. W Burton, Miss F. E. Gibson, C. W. King, Dr. H. M. Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.) Gooch, E. G. Lee, Frederick (Newton) Callaghan, L. J. Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Carmichael, J. Grey, C. F. Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Castle, Mrs. B. A. Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Lewis, Arthur Champion, A. J. Griffiths, William (Exchange) Lindgren, G. S Chapman, W. D. Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Lipton, Lt.-Col. M Chetwynd, G. R Hall, John T (Gateshead, W.) Logan, D. G. Clunie, J. Hamilton, W W MacColl, J. E. Coldrick, W. Hannan, W. McGhee, H. G Collick, P. H Hardy, E. A. McGovern, J Corbet, Mrs. Freda Hargreaves, A Mclnnes, J. McKay, John (Wallsend) Popplewell, E. Taylor, John (West Lothian) McLeavy, F. Porter, G. Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth) MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Price, J. T (Westhoughton) Thomas, George (Cardiff) MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.) Mainwaring, W. H. Proctor, W. T. Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Pryde, D. J. Thornton, E. Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Pursey, Cmdr. H Timmons, J. Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. Rankin, John Tomney, F. Mason, Roy Reeves, J. Turner-Samuels, M. Mayhew, C. P. Reid, Thomas (Swindon) Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn Mellish, R. J. Reid, William (Camlachie) Usborne, H. C. Messer, Sir F. Rhodes, H. Viant, S. p. Mikardo, Ian Robens, Rt. Hon. A. Warbey, W. N. Mitchison, G R. Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.) Monslow, W. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) Weitzman, D. Moody, A. S. Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) Wells, Percy (Faversham) Morgan, Dr. H. B. W. Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) Wells, William (Walsall) Morley, R. Ross, William West, D. G. Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Royle, C. Wheeldon, W. E. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.) Shackleton, E. A. A While, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint) Mort, D. L. Short, E. W. White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.) Moyle, A. Shurmer, P. L. E. Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. Mulley, F. W. Silverman, Julius (Erdington) Wigg, George Murray, J. D Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) Wilkins, W. A Nally, W. Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) Willey, F. T. Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Skeffington, A. M. Williams, David (Neath) Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield) Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery) O'Brien, T. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) Williams, Ronald (Wigan) Oliver, G. H Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.) Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y) Orbach, M. Snow, J. W. Williams, W. R. (Droylsden) Oswald, T. Sorensen, R. W. Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.) Padley, W. E. Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) Paget, R. T. Sparks, J. A. Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Steele, T. Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside) Palmer, A. M. F. Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. Pannell, Charles Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. Wyatt, W. L. Pargiter, G. A. Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall) Yates, V. F. Parker, J. Stross, Dr. Barnett Parkin, B. T. Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E Pearson, A. Swingler, S. T. TELLERS FOR THE AYES: Peart, T. F. Sylvester, G. O. Mr. Wallace and Plummer, Sir Leslie Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) Mr. James Johnsor.
NOES Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) Alport, C. J. M. Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok) Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Cole, Norman Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J. Colegate, W. A. Garner-Evans, E. H. Arbuthnot, John Conant, Maj. R. J. E. Glover, D. Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert Godber, J. B. Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Cooper-Key, E. M. Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. Baldwin, A. E. Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Gough, C. F. H. Banks, Col. C. Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C Gower, H. R. Barber, Anthony Crouch, R. F. Graham, Sir Fergus Barlow, Sir John Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Grimond, J. Baxter, A. B. Crowder- Petre (Ruislip—Northwood) Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Beach, Maj. Hicks Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.) Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Davidson, Viscountess Hall, John (Wycombe) Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Deedes, W. F. Harden, J. R. E. Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.) Digby, S. Wingfield Hare, Hon. J. H. Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Dodds-Parker, A. D. Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) Bennett, William (Woodside) Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. Harris, Reader (Heston) Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Donner, Sir P. W. Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Birch, Nigel Doughty, C. J. A. Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) Bishop, F. P. Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm Harvie-Watt, Sir George Black, C. W. Drayson, G. B. Hay, John Bossom, Sir A. C. Drewe, Sir C. Head, Rt. Hon. A. H. Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. Dugdale, Rt. Hon. Sir T. (Richmond) Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Boyle, Sir Edward Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. Heath, Edward Braine, B. R. Duthie, W. S. Henderson, John (Cathcart) Braithwaite, Sir Gurney Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M. Higgs, J. M. C. Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W H Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Brooman-White, R. C. Erroll, F. J. Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Browne, Jack (Govan) Fell, A. Hirst, Geoffrey Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G T Finlay, Graeme Holland-Martin, C. J. Bullard, D. G. Fisher, Nigel Hollis, M. C. Bullus, Wing Commander E. E Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F. Hope, Lord John Burden, F. F. A. Fletcher-Cooke, C. Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry Butcher, Sir Herbert Ford, Mrs. Patricia Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Campbell, Sir David Fort, R. Horobin, I. M. Cary, Sir Robert Foster, John Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence Channon, H. Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone) Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington) Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J. Medlicott, Brig. F. Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood) Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.) Mellor, Sir John Snadden, W. McN. Hutchison, James (Scotstoun) Molson, A. H. E. Soames, Capt. C. Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M. Moore, Sir Thomas Spearman, A. C. M Hylton-Foster, H. B. H. Morrison, John (Salisbury) Speir, R. M. Iremonger, T. L. Mott-Radclyffe, C. E Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.) Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Nabarro, G. D. N. Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard Jennings, Sir Roland Neave, Airey Stevens, G. P. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Nicholls, Harmar Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.) Jones, A. (Hall Green) Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. Kerby, Capt. H. B. Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.) Storey, S. Kerr, H. W Nield, Basil (Chester) Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) Lambert, Hon. G. Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P. Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray) Lambton Viscount Nugent, G. R. H. Studholme, H. G. Lancaster Col. C. G Nutting, Anthony Summers, G. S. Langford-Holt, J. A. Oakshott, H. D. Sutcliffe, Sir Harold Leather, E. H. C. O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) Teeling, W. Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T. Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford) Lindsay, Martin Osborne, C. Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) Linstead, Sir H. N. Page, R. G. Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway) Llewellyn, D. T. Peake, Rt. Hon. O. Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) Perkins, Sir Robert Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.) Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral) Peto, Brig. C. H. M Thorneycroft,Rt.Hn. Peter (Monmouth) Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. Peyton, J. W. W. Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C N. Longden, Gilbert Pickthorn, K. W. M. Tilney, John Low, A. R. W. Pilkington, Capt. R. A Touche, Sir Gordon Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S) Pitman, I. J. Turner, H. F. L. Lucas, P. B. (Brentford) Pitt, Miss E. M. Turton, R. H. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Powell, J. Enoch Tweedsmuir, Lady Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) Vane, W. M. F. McAdden, S. J. Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L. Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. McCallum, Major D. Profumo, J. D. Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S Raikes, Sir Victor Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone) Macdonald, Sir Peter Ramsden, J. E. Wall, P. H. B. Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry Redmayne, M. Ward, Hon. George (Worcester) Mackie, J. H. (Galloway) Rees-Davies, W. R Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth) Maclean, Fitzroy Remnant, Hon. P Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W) Renton, D. L. M. Watkinson, H. A. MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty) Ridsdale, J. E. Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster) Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) Roberts, Peter (Heeley) Wellwood, W. Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) Robertson, Sir David Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay) Maitland, Patrick (Lanark) Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S) Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.) Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E. Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter) Markham, Major Sir Frank Roper, Sir Harold Wills, G. Marlowe, A. A. H. Russell, R. S. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) Marples, A. E. Ryder, Capt. R. E. D Wood, Hon. R. Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin) Schofield, Lt.-Col. W Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sulton) Scott, R. Donald Maude, Angus Scott-Miller, Comdr. R. TELLERS FOR THE NOES: Maudling, R Shepherd, William Mr. Vosper and Mr. Kaberry. Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)
Clause 2.—(POWER OF LOCAL AUTHORITIES TO RETAIN FOR TEMPORARY ACCOMMODATION CERTAIN HOUSES IN CLEARANCE AREAS.)
I beg to move, in page 3, line 9, at the end, to insert:
The Amendment meets in full the point raised by my hon. Friend. He wanted to make sure that if there was in a terrace of houses one which was completely unfit for habitation, the local authority need not pull down the unfit house if by doing so the patched house would fall down because of the loss of its retaining wall. So the local authority is empowered to keep an unfit house solely for the purpose of making sure that the house next door can be patched.
The Amendment goes some way, in paragraph ( b ), to meet the point raised by the hon. Member for Widnes, who moved an Amendment in Committee which would have enabled the local authority to defer the demolition of slum houses owned by it so that it could keep them as garages or stores, even though all the houses in the area were scheduled for demolition or marked down for demolition. We thought it was undesirable to go as far as that, because the object is to clear the area as quickly as possible. The present Amendment is more limited than the purpose he had in mind, and makes clear that there must be a special reason for deferring demolition. It must be connected with the retention of other houses in the clearance area. A house might, for example, be wanted as a builder's store in connection with the work of patching those houses. The hon. Gentleman had in mind a hopelessly unfit house being used as a garage. It was his point that it should be continued to be used for that purpose rather than that it should be derelict and be used for undesirable purposes. He invited my right hon. Friend to see some undesirable practices in a place near where he lives. The invitation has not been accepted, and this Amendment has been produced instead of accepting it.
The local authorities must be left to decide what constitutes a special reason for the purposes of the new subsection. They might well think that such a case as the hon. Gentleman had in mind came within that category. In general that would not be so, but, whatever the decision, we will not quarrel with it, and therefore the Minister is given no power to intervene.
Houses dealt with under the power to be conferred by this new subsection will not qualify for a grant under Clause 6. It was made clear by the Minister in Committee that he would not give a patching grant to these houses. As this Amendment meets the point raised by my hon. Friend and in great part the point mentioned by the hon. Member for Widnes, I hope the House will accept it.
I should like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for conceding at any rate part of what I asked for in Committee, although I must say that I do not feel very passionately identified with this Amendment, and I would have hoped he could have met us a little bit further. I agree, however, about the grant. Obviously there is no case at all for giving it, and that was not what we had in mind. I still think that if we had used the form of words in my Amendment it would have been simpler and more easy to understand.
If the right hon. Gentleman had been able to accept my invitation, he might have felt more cordially disposed towards my proposal, and we might have got more out of him. At any rate, the invitation is still open to him. He has not thought about including a similar provision in Clause 5, where ownership of houses does not pass to the authority. I understand that if an authority wants to leave a property up for storage, they will have to purchase it in order to exercise their privileges under this Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10.—(PROVISION RELATING TO HOUSES OCCUPIED BY MORE THAN ONE FAMILY.)
6.15 p.m.
I beg to move, in page 9, line 10, to leave out "that any," and to insert "in the case of a."
On a point of order. There are two Amendments before this on the Order Paper which have not yet been discussed, and I thought we were still on Clause 2.
We are not still on Clause 2. The Amendments to Clause 3 and Clause 6 have not been selected by Mr. Speaker.
This is the first of a series of Amendments to give effect to an undertaking given in Standing Committee that the powers of the Clause would be applied to lodging houses. This was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Robert Jenkins), the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl) and the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison). We extend to houses let in lodgings the provisions of the Clause because, as introduced, the Measure related only to houses occupied by members of more than one family. It is now extended to lodgings, which meets the wishes of the Committee.
The local authority may serve a notice specifying the works needed to make any such house suitable for occupation in the way it is occupied and requiring the person having control of the house, if he does not carry out the works, to reduce the number of lodgers or families, or both, to the numbers specified by the local authority. I think this meets in full the point discussed in Committee upstairs. The hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson) asked me in Committee whether tenements were covered by the Clause, and the answer to that is that they are covered. Tenements, lodgings and other habitats now come within the ambit of the Clause.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In page 9, line 11, leave out "any," and insert "of."
In line 11, at end, insert "let in lodgings or."
In line 12, leave out from "family," to "any," in line 14, and insert "that with respect to."
In line 15, after "Act," insert:
"the premises are so far defective, having regard to the number of individuals or households, or both, accommodated for the time being on the premises, as not to be reasonably suitable for occupation by those individuals or households."
In line 21, at end, insert "reasonably."
In line 27, leave out from "the," to end, and insert:
"number of individuals accommodated on the premises, or the number of households accommodated there, or both, is limited in any manner so specified."—[ Mr. Marples. ]
I beg to move, in page 9, line 31, to leave out "notice," and to insert "requirement."
This Amendment and the next two Amendments hang together; only one principle is involved. This is another example of how my right hon. Friend has endeavoured to meet the wishes of the Committee upstairs on all these points. This point was raised by the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison). He made the point that if the landlord were to do work on his house, he could apply to the county court for the possession of the house, evict the tenant, carry out the work and then have the premises with vacant possession.
I said that the intention of the Government was that the landlord should only have access to the house, not vacant possession, if any work had to be carried out. These Amendments preclude the landlord from applying for an order for possession to enable him to evict the occupant for the purpose of carrying out work specified by the local authority under the Clause. The landlord will be able to obtain possession only for the purpose of reducing the number of persons or families in occupation, and he will only do that if compelled to do so by the local authority. I think that this meets the point of the undertaking which I gave in the Standing Committee.
The point is whether the families turned out under that notice lose the protection of the Rent Restriction Acts.
What the Amendment does—if I may speak again, by leave of the House—is that if the local authority says to the owner of the house which is overcrowded, "You must reduce the number of families there," then the landlord must be able to carry out the order of the local authority and will have to apply to the county court for vacant possession in order to comply with the order of the local authority. But the private landlord is precluded from asking for vacant possession merely if he is to carry out remedial works or works of repair, which would enable him to take the particular house or flat himself and live in it or allow one of his friends to do so. Where the landlord wishes to have access for repair work, he cannot evict the tenant or apply to the county court for possession. But if the local authority says "The premises are overcrowded and the number of people there must be reduced," he can apply to the county court.
This Amendment deals with the case of a house which is in the occupation of more than one family when works upon the house would make it fit for one family but not for two, and where possession of the house is necessary to enable the works to be carried out. We wish to make quite certain that possession does not deny the right of re-entry and rent control to the major or principal family. The protection of rent control obviously could not be given to a family which was not allowed to return, because the whole purpose of the work was to make the house fit for one family when it would be unfit for two.
I should like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for meeting the point which I raised.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In page 9, line 31, leave out "this section," and insert:
"paragraph ( b ) of the foregoing subsection."
In line 32, after "with," insert "any requirement of."
I beg to move, in page 10, line 1, to leave out subsection (5).
This subsection completely abolishes the whole series of byelaws which local authorities have for a long time had power to frame and operate. Those bye-laws are now to be completely done away with, and in their place is to be substituted the standards outlined in Clause 8 (1, d ) to (1, h ). The right hon. Gentleman is taking away from the local authorities the initiative and the power which they have had for a long time to frame local byelaws to meet local conditions, and is substituting instead a national standard which may or may not be applied throughout the country on a uniform basis.
In dealing with this question in the Standing Committee, the Parliamentary Secretary offered some objections to the continuance of those byelaws, and he tried to show that some of them were ridiculous and quite incapable of being carried out. I will not burden the House by reading them, but if the examples which the hon. Gentleman quoted actually appear in the byelaws of any local authority, it is certainly his own Department which is to blame, because those local byelaws cannot become effective unless approved by the Ministry. At some time or other, presumably, the Ministry of Health in most cases at that time must have given approval to the byelaws and must at the same time have approved byelaws which the Parliamentary Secretary declares to be impossible of fulfilment.
That may be so, but it is vitally important that we should not take completely from the local authorities the initiative which they have always possessed to adapt the housing standards to local conditions, because housing conditions vary so much in many parts of the country. The problem in our great towns and cities is very different from that in remote rural areas and other parts of the Provinces
I can see a variety of interpretations being given to the standards now included in Clause 8. It is a retrograde step to withdraw from the local authorities this power which they have always had to adapt housing standards to local needs. We have already discussed this matter in the Standing Committee. I am not sure that the national standard now proposed in Clause 8 satisfactorily takes the place of the local byelaws; in fact, it does not. Those provisions of Clause 8 are rather vague and wide in their application, and the substitution of a national standard for the local byelaws will lead, in effect, to a deterioration in housing standards in many parts of the country.
6.30 p.m.
I do not feel that the hon. Gentleman has made a case for taking away from local authorities this power to make local byelaws. Unless we are to have local authorities dragooned behind a national machine, we must give them a certain discretion and latitude. If the Minister is satisfied that any of the local byelaws are unworkable, he has the power, I believe, to have them revised and brought up to date. In many cases that is very necessary. The local authorities can be called upon to submit new byelaws. Therefore, I feel that in this matter the right hon. Gentleman is taking the wrong line.
Local government should be left in local hands as far as possible. I think it is most unwise that at this stage power should be taken away from all local authorities throughout the country to lay down local byelaws which fit in with their own peculiar and special local circumstances. For these reasons, I hope that the House will accept this Amendment.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I am rather sorry that the hon. Member for Dulwich (Mr. Robert Jenkins) is not present this afternoon, because in Committee he spoke with considerable vigour on this matter and on the practical problems that were likely to arise if this subsection remained in the Clause.
From a practical point of view, this is a clumsy and ham-fisted piece of legislation. I know that we shall be referred to the Silkin Committee. I have not had an opportunity of discussing with my noble Friend what precisely he had in mind when he drew up the byelaws which were put forward by that Committee. I think it was common ground in the discussion which we had upstairs—when my hon. Friend the Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson) spoke from the point of view of county councils and the hon. Member for Dulwich and I spoke from the point of view of borough councils—that these byelaws were both practical and useful, and that there was nothing in the Clause which took their place.
The Clause has now been amended and it is a little difficult to see precisely in what respect the Amendments made to the Clause affect the Amendment which has been moved by my hon. Friend. As I understand Clause 10, it authorises a local authority to issue notices specifying what works are necessary to render premises suitable for habitation; in other words, it is confined to specific works required to be done, and I have been unable to find where it has a wider extension than that.
The points made upstairs, both by my hon. Friend the Member for Clapham and by the hon. Member for Dulwich, did not all refer to works in that sense. There was, first of all, the point about house-to-house inspection. The trouble with a great deal of preventive work under the Public Health Acts is that sanitary inspectors do not visit houses until somebody comes along and makes a complaint. Therefore, their work tends to be done in a rather haphazard way.
If it is desired to maintain the general level of housing, we must retain house-to-house inspection so as to make sure that the byelaws are being complied with. I readily admit that, owing to the shortage of staff since the war, house-to-house inspections have not been carried out as vigorously as in pre-war days; but when I was a member of a Metropolitan borough council before the war, it was the custom of the health committee to chase the sanitary inspectors in order to make certain that they were carrying out house-to-house inspections.
As I understand it, there is now no obligation upon local authorities to make house-to-house inspections, and that, I think, is a very great weakness on the preventive side of the Bill. As the byelaws stand at the moment, a local authority is under an obligation to keep an eye on these premises. The kind of premises we have in mind are not the small rural houses which are to be found in such places as Widnes, which has its own particular problems and difficulties, and which can be dealt with under Clause 10, but the large Victorian houses of four or five storeys which are shared by several families. Such houses usually have very little in the way of sanitary conveniences and very often they have very inadequate water supplies, and all sorts of other problems inherent in communal living.
One of the things with which byelaws deal is the question of a common staircase and who is responsible for cleansing it. I do not see how serving an order on the owner of a lodging house stating that he must see that the staircase is kept adequately cleansed can be termed a notice specifying works which have to be done, or that it deals with the question of rendering the property suitable for occupation except in the sense of laying down a minimum public health condition. It is not a building or a housing problem at all.
The same thing applies also to other points raised in Committee upstairs, such as the question of lime-washing and cleansing the house from time to time. These are practical points, and I can quite understand the logic of the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend in saying, "Well, we are following the recommendations of the Silkin Report. We are introducing a Clause which gives specific powers to exercise control over houses which are let from a housing point of view."
From that point of view, there might be something to be said for altering or regulating the byelaws under the Housing Acts, but what I cannot understand is why the right hon. Gentleman, once he has got the bit between his teeth, cannot stop like a reasonable person and say, "We will deal with the houses," and why he has to go on barging into the Public Health Acts and start altering byelaws which really approach the problem from quite a different point of view. They are concerned with the much wider and more general question of amenities, such as cleansing and the provision of minimum sanitary conveniences, washing down the place and the removal of vermin. All these problems are the day-to-day problems of the sanitary inspector in overcrowded areas in London.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks), I do not think that the proposals made so far by the hon. Gentleman meet the real point put to him upstairs by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee. As I have said, I am sorry that the hon. Member for Dulwich is not present, because I do not like putting words into his mouth, but I am quite certain, from what he said in Committee, that he also took this point very seriously. As a member of the Kensington Borough Council, an area similar to that of which I am a member, I am quite certain that his approach to the problem is much the same as ours. We are neighbouring boroughs, and we have the same sort of property. We know these difficulties, and from long years of bitter experience we know the value of these byelaws. Therefore, I think that the Minister is going to do an awful lot of harm unless he has second thoughts about the matter.
I also regret that the hon. Member for Dulwich (Mr. Robert Jenkins) is not here, because he gave very effective and strong support in Committee to our attempts to get this part of the Bill altered. It is a pity that he is not here, because he spoke no only, so he said, for himself, but for all the local authorities. All the local authorities who have been discussing this Bill with the Minister behind the scenes are very anxious that this power to make local byelaws shall not be taken away. The hon. Member for Dulwich moved an Amendment which would have assisted us considerably in getting what we wanted.
There is no excuse for the Government to include this subsection in the Bill. All our local government byelaws and regulations have been made in accordance with local sentiment to meet local conditions and difficulties, and they have been authorised by this House on one occasion or another. We ought not to scrap, without thought or consideration, the powers which the local authorities have been given. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider this point.
What is really behind this question is the fact that many of these local byelaws provide for a higher standard of accommodation than the Bill provides. I have no doubt that that will create some difficulties for the Minister of Housing and Local Government; but where that is the case it is because the local community have, by their votes and public support of their local authority, authorised them to apply for and to get these additional powers and to operate them.
I am not sure how the Bill affects the problem which I am going to mention. We have in London what is known as the basement problem. It is a terrible problem in Westminster. Not many years ago many people were drowned one night when the banks of the river gave way in Westminster, and many homes were spoiled on the other side of the river. The L.C.C made byelaws to regulate the condition of basements to try to prevent people from living in basements which were unfit. Are those powers to be removed by this subsection? If so, it is a pretty serious matter, because all over London there are thousands of houses with basements well below ground level, many of which are completely unfit to live in and some of which can never be made habitable.
Where steps have been taken to try to improve the position and to prevent people from living in these unfit places, it is a mistake to withdraw the necessary powers, as this subsection does, because it refers to the Public Health (London) Act, 1936. There is no excuse for that. There is no need to include this subsection in order to get the landlords a few more shillings in the shape of a rent increase. It has no effect whatever on the main purpose of the Bill, which is to give the landlords an increase in rent, but it will considerably interfere with the powers of local authorities to try to lift already very low standards of housing. It will deny local authorities the power to deal with some of the worst aspects of housing, and, in particular, this problem of underground basements in which so many families still have to live.
Another matter which is dealt with by local byelaws is the maintenance of common staircases, and the byelaws also deal with the light which must be provided on these common staircases, as well as with cleaning them. Those who have seen some of the older tenement buildings in London, or large houses which have been converted into so-called flats, will realise that there is need for some control over the questions of the common entrance, the common staircase and their lighting for the convenience of the tenant.
6.45 p.m.
As I see it, this subsection will remove from the local authorities the power to issue those sorts of byelaws. The hon. Member for Dulwich was right when he said that we ought to leave with the local authorities the power to make such byelaws, and I think it is a great shame that he is not here this evening. I hope that the local government association for whom he was speaking in Committee will take note of his absence. We certainly take note of it. He was certainly right when he spoke in Committee, and I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks) is right in having moved this Amendment.
I hope that, in the interests of good local government and of encouraging the local authorities to fulfil the purpose for which they exist, of making life a little better for some of the poorest of our people, the Government will not insist on removing powers for making byelaws which local authorities have had for so many years, but that they will encourage the improvement of the conditions in the houses in which these people live. This subsection is not at all necessary for the main purpose of this Bill, and it would not spoil the Bill in any way if it were deleted.
I am sure the House will forgive me if I stand between it and the Parliamentary Secretary for a moment or two, because this part of the Bill clearly derives from the recommendations of the Silkin Sub-Committee some nine years ago. I had the interesting and valuable experience of sitting under Lord Silkin, as he now is, as a member of that Sub-Committee. It certainly is relevant to our debates that that Sub-Committee recommended unanimously that these byelaws should be swept away.
I do not think, therefore, that the hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson) can be quite right when he alleges that the only reason for getting rid of them through this Bill is that some of them provide for a higher standard of accommodation, which he says this Government would not like. He must have that out with Lord Silkin. On those subcommittees of the Central Housing and Advisory Committee we never let party politics enter into our deliberations. We all try to do a good job of work for housing, and that is how we manage to reach a substantial measure of agreement.
There is no doubt that these byelaws up and down the country are in a confusing and complicated state. I do not criticise the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks) for moving this Amendment, but I doubt whether his solution would be satisfactory, that the Minister should, as it were, call in hundreds of obsolete byelaws from all over the country and tell the local authorities that he can no longer give his approval to them.
I do not think the hon. Gentleman put the point as I thought I did. My point was that the right hon. Gentleman has power to ask local authorities to revise existing byelaws and submit to him revised byelaws which he can then consider and approve or disapprove in the light of experience. Would that not be better than wiping out a whole series of byelaws throughout the country?
I accept that that would be one way of doing it. The Bill proposes another and a simpler way of doing it, and it is also a way that has been recommended unanimously by an all-party committee. I do not want to be controversial or provocative, but I think a very important point is at stake. I am prepared to support my right hon. Friend when he says that the right course to take now, in 1954, is to adopt the recommendations of a committee that presented its report to a predecessor of his nine years ago, and see how we get on. After all, Lord Silkin himself has great experience in these matters. The Bill is shortly to be discussed in another place, and these questions can be followed further there.
The hon. Member served on the Silkin Sub-Committee. Am I wrong, or did it recommend that the byelaw powers should be abolished and replaced by statutory powers?
Yes, that was the recommendation. The Sub-Committee was concerned with facilitating the conversion of existing houses. It was set up by the Coalition Government, because it was recognised that one of the courses of action necessary at the end of the war would be the proper conversion of houses no longer suitable for single-family occupation. We are all sorry that, as things turned out—because of shortage of materials and so forth—it was so difficult to proceed with conversions.
I agree with the hon. Member for Acton that it will be extremely important to watch this matter. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary may be able to say a word about whether the reference to "works" in page 9, line 20, is sufficient to cover the kind of things which local authorities may need to do. I could not for one moment agree that this Clause gives no flexibility and allows no discretion to local authorities. In page 9, line 12, it includes the word "reasonably" and in line 20 it includes the phrase "in the opinion of the authority." So local authorities will be able to exercise their own discretion according to local requirements in administering the standards which the Clause lays down.
Bearing in mind the unanimous recommendations of the Silkin Sub-Committee, I think it would be desirable at this stage to get rid of the very complicated mass of local byelaws, and to watch the situation to see if, in the light of experience, anything further may be needed at some future date.
What troubles me in this matter is whether in fact the statutory powers provided by this Clause replace the byelaw powers which it undoubtedly removes. In Committee the Parliamentary Secretary had a broom complex—new or old. He repeatedly referred to the "sweeping proposals" of the Clause which we are now considering. Perhaps that is because it had something to do with public health—I do not know—and it was brought into this Housing Repairs and Rents Bill for that reason. These things become a little obscure.
The point which is bothering me is that Clause 10 is termed, quite rightly,
When we come to the last subsection we discover again the Government's incurable habit of slipping in an important provision as quietly as possible. What is done there is to remove altogether, among other things, the byelaw-making powers under Section 6 of the Housing Act, 1936. The hon. Member for Hampstead has told us—and I accept it from him—that those byelaws were to be removed and replaced by statutory powers. But the broom provided by the Parliamentary Secretary is not nearly large enough, because these statutory powers relate only to one single matter, that is to say, a house occupied by more than one family when it ought not so to be occupied. But we find there are a number of other things which have nothing to do with the question whether there should be one or two families in the house.
It is true that the Section goes on to say that one of the sanctions, as it were, is the prohibition of the letting for occupation to members of more than one family in such a case. But that is not the main purpose of the byelaw-making power. The main purpose relates to a whole lot of public health provisions, because that is really what they are, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. MacCoIl.)
There are all kinds of things, including enforcing drainage, promoting cleanliness and ventilation, closet accommodation, the keeping in repair of common staircases, fire precautions, the provision of handrails, adequate lighting—all kinds of things. How does the rest of this Clause meet the requirement which the Silkin Sub-Committee had in mind—that if byelaw-making powers were to be abolished they should be replaced by statutory powers? How does it comply with the poetic description given by the Parliamentary Secretary on several occasions in Committee upstairs of "sweeping proposals"?
It would seem to me that the Tory Party is, for once, breaking with its principle of decentralising everything and in these important matters is trying to impose a standard upon local authorities, and to prevent them from having a higher standard of their own. When we consider this in relation to the standard imposed for general consumption, as it were, we find it to be pretty low. So far as there is any standard at ail, it is by reference to the notorious definition, or so-called definition, in Clause 8 of the Bill.
I am not, of course, proposing to discuss that now. I shall not refer to it except to say that it is no definition at all. It does not comply with the reports of responsible people on the matter, particularly the Mitchell Committee, and it is thoroughly unsatisfactory, at any rate to hon. Members on this side of the House.
Therefore it seems to me that the sum of this story is that under the somewhat misleading description of the Clause the powers of local authorities to enforce proper standards are taken away without the sanction of the Silkin Sub-Committee at all, because they are not replaced by any other powers. I fail to see why the Government find it necessary to do this at all or why they still think it necessary to resist the Amendment and to keep this subsection in the Bill.
The point which has been made by the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) may be attractive to some minds, but it is really a false one when we consider the whole background to the problem. As the Clause originally appeared it was far more limited in scope than it is today, because we have recently made an Amendment which brings in common lodging houses.
The criticisms made of subsection (5) in Committee were, I think, more justified when the Clause was in its original form. If we look at Section 6 of the Housing Act, 1936, which subsection (5, a ) seeks to do away with, we see that it has a very long and respectable ancestry. It goes back to the Common Lodging Houses Act of 1851. This was a necessary provision for byelaw-making power in the latter day of the 19th Century, when lodging houses were springing up like rabbit warrens in our big cities. In those days, it was necessary to have powers for a local authority to deal locally with these very bad conditions.
7.0 p.m.
The hon. Gentleman has referred to the one subsection which does not deal with that. The point I have been making was about the remaining provisions, which go on from ( b ) to ( k ), and which have nothing at all to do with lodging houses.
Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman will allow me to make my speech in my own way. There are several things in his speech with which I disagree, but, at the moment, I am trying to explain that what the Government propose to do is not nearly so terrible as some hon. Members imagine, but is, in fact, a very sensible idea. I have already explained that the items in Section 6 of the Housing Act of 1936 to which the hon. and learned Gentleman has just referred, are already covered by other powers.
I was saying that that was the ancestry of Section 6 of the Housing Act, 1936, and, therefore, the circumstances which prevailed, which required the predecessor of that Section in the early days of the 19th Century, have now fortunately passed away. Many local authorities view with disquiet the removal of Section 6, and I have received representations on this very topic, but I think the anxieties of local authorities are unfounded. The whole purpose of this Clause is to provide a national standard, not only for houses occupied by more than one family, but a national standard for what used to be called common lodging houses as well.
When the hon. and learned Member for Kettering says that these provisions in Section 6 are being removed, he forgets that there exists in the Public Health Act, 1936, a byelaw-making power to deal with the public health aspects of this matter, which I think is the major safeguard which the local authorities will have, because all the other items which the hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned are not so much housing requirements, although they appear in a Housing Act, as in the nature of public health matters.
Therefore, I suggest that we get rid of this unnecessary Section, because the Clause now before the House is much more up-to-date and much more in keeping with the recommendations of the Silkin Committee, and there is no need to keep this old and, in some ways, unsatisfactory power. I do not think the local authorities will suffer, because they will still have the Public Health Act powers which will enable them to make byelaws to deal with all other matters. They now have two sets of powers to deal with precisely the same sort of thing, and what we are doing in this Clause is setting up a national standard and retaining one set of powers under the Public Health Act. I do not think the local authorities will have any difficulties at all.
Different circumstances arise in different parts of the country, as far as local authorities are concerned, and, as local authorities have operated these powers very well up to now, why should we take them away?
The hon. Gentleman has missed the whole point of my speech, perhaps because I did not make it clear. It is true that the circumstances of different authorities in different places vary. We are providing a national standard, based on the practice of the best local authority, but, if any local authority wants additional powers to make extra byelaws, as, in certain aspects of the public health side of this matter, it will still be able to do it under the Public Health Act. We do not need to duplicate powers which local authorities already have under the Public Health Act.
I do not think there is anything in the arguments of the Opposition, though I think it right that this matter should be discussed, because this Amendment would mean retaining on the Statute Book a Section which is now nugatory in the light of the alterations which we have now made to this very valuable and important Clause.
We have had an interesting discussion on an Amendment that was well worth putting on the Order Paper because of the valuable points which have been brought out. We have two points before us. The first is one of principle; whether the old byelaws should be replaced by the newer methods of enforcing the various conditions, and the second; whether we in this Measure have made it sufficiently comprehensive to cover all the necessary points primarily covered in Section 6 of the original Act, or, at any rate, those powers under that Section which are applicable to modern purposes.
Let us consider those two points. On the first point, we accept the principle that the byelaws should go, and that the recommendations of the Silkin Committee in that respect should be adopted. I was a little surprised that the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl), who is always factual and very courteous on these occasions, should say that his noble Friend Lord Silkin had chosen a hamhanded way of doing it, because the Central Housing Advisory Committee is a statutory body to advise the Minister on these matters. This sub-committee, with Lord Silkin in the chair and with the assistance of my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. H. Brooke), made a unanimous recommendation in 1945, after dispassionately going into the evidence placed before it, and my right hon. Friend would have been neglecting his duty if he had not given full weight to the recommendations of that subcommittee, and also to the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Robert Jenkins).
The Association of Municipal Corporations impressed upon the Government the fact that it considered that the recommendations of the Silkin Committee should be implemented, and it urged us to do so. Therefore, we had the largest local authority association asking us to do it, while the recommendations of the Silkin Committee in 1945 were not only unanimous, but virtually condemned the byelaw system on the grounds that it was unenforceable without an army of inspectors, which leads me to the point made by the hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson).
The hon. Gentleman has suggested that, in referring to my noble Friend Lord Silkin, I said he was ham-handed. I was, of course, referring to the Minister as being ham-handed, which is quite a different thing. I think it is only fair to point out that the Silkin Committee was not addressing itself primarily to the problem of maintaining a standard of conditions, but to the problem of conversion, and was looking at it from that specialised aspect.
I have refreshed my memory, and I find that no evidence was received from the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee, and I was speaking primarily about London boroughs in what I had to say. The Committee had evidence from the London County Council, but not from the Metropolitan Boroughs Joint Standing Committee, nor, as far as I know, from the Association of Municipal Corporations, and, if the Association takes the view which the hon. Gentleman has just stated, is it not rather odd that the hon. Member for Dulwich, who was apparently briefed by that Association, supported us upstairs?
If I may intervene in the speech of the hon. Gentleman, I did not wish to say or to impute that Lord Silkin was ham-handed. The hon. Gentleman said that his right hon. Friend's method of carrying it out was clumsy and ham-handed. I merely said that he was carrying out a principle which the Committee unanimously recommended, and I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman, who apologised for not having consulted his noble Friend, might consult him on this matter, because the Silkin Committee was really very severe on the existing bye-laws and considered them unimportant. It unanimously recommended that they should be replaced, and that the local authorities should be given instead a discretionary power—
I know that the hon. Member attaches a great deal of weight to the views of his hon. Friend Lord Silkin. The hon. Member told us in the Committee how he and Lord Silkin walked round Camberwell, inspected the slum houses and drab streets and unanimously came to certain conclusions. He used Lord Silkin's reputation to support those conclusions. Well, here we have Lord Silkin, this time with other colleagues, and they came to a unanimous conclusion on byelaws. When I quoted from the conclusions, the hon. Gentleman said that those conclusions were wrong.
If the hon. Gentleman accepts this recommendation of the Housing Advisory Committee, why does he reject the standard of human habitation recommended by the self-same Committee?
Let me deal with one point at a time for the convenience of the House. Let me make my speech, because I want to get on to some of the other Amendments on the Order Paper.
The hon. Member for Clapham suggested that the Minister should prescribe a simple code of amenities for this purpose. In view of the fact that the Association of Municipal Corporations want a proposal of the kind that we put forward and that the Report of the Silkin Committee was unanimous in saying that the byelaws were unenforceable, we ask the House to accept the removal of the byelaws and their replacement by discretionary power. Section 6 (3) of the old Act said that the byelaws should be limited to houses let in lodgings or occupied by members of more than one family. That is the scope of the original Act, and that is the scope of the proposal we put forward. We have not reduced the scope, but have included lodging houses and thus widened the scope of the original proposal.
We must have this point made clear. The Parliamentary Secretary has mentioned Section 3, but if it is so limited the byelaws have a general application. Under the Clause the byelaws have only a limited application to cases of more than one family or to lodging houses.
Let me continue my argument and sit down as quickly as possible. The next point is that we have to examine whether we have covered all the cases which we should like to cover, and which were included in the byelaws. I think we have. We shall find that there are certain amenities that were mentioned in the old Section that we do not really need. We will find that we have all the provisions that we need in Clause 8, or in other Acts on the Statute Book. That is the main point. We do not want duplication of powers if we can avoid it. Let us see whether they are enforced here or elsewhere.
In the Committee, the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) talked about drainage, promoting cleanliness and ventilation. Drainage and ventilation are completely covered by Clause 10. The enforcement of cleanliness is considered to be a power that is not wanted. The byelaws came under the strictures of the Housing Advisory Committee as unenforceable without an army of inspectors. There is no use putting on the Statute Book something that the Silkin Committee said was unenforceable.
Another point mentioned in the Standing Committee was repairs, which are covered by Clause 8. Other hon. Members mentioned fire prevention and stability. Fire prevention and safety from fire are all covered. Stability is covered by Clause 8. Safety from fire is considered to be dealt with in Section 60 of the Public Health Act, 1936, and corresponding provisions in other Acts. We are giving local authorities the discretionary power which the Silkin Committee recommended.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead asked me the interpretation of the word "works" on page 9, line 20, of the Bill. The interpretation would be that they are those works which, in the opinion of the local authority, should be carried out. The local authority would decide what works were necessary. Therefore, there is a very wide interpretation of "works," which was just what the Silkin Committee asked us to do.
7.15 p.m.
The hon. and learned Member for Kettering mentioned several amenities which were missed. He ought to remember that we have put a new definition of fitness in Clause 8, which sets out for the first time the services and amenities which are essential to proper living conditions. It empowers the local authority to deal with a case where these services and amenities are present but are not adequate because the houses are occupied by several people. The House should accept the principle which was unanimously recommended by the Silkin Committee.
I hope hon. Gentlemen are satisfied that the necessary points are covered either in other Acts already on the Statute Book or in the present Measure. I agree with the hon. Member for Clapham that if it is found in practice that there are defects, and that local authorities have a proper grievance because they are not able to supervise what is going on in their area, it will be up to the Government to look at it again. At this stage, having introduced this new principle and made a praiseworthy endeavour to include most if not all the provisions of Section 7, we should see how it works out and, in the light of experience, bring forward any Amendment we think desirable. I hope the House will consider that that is a reasonable attitude and that the Amendment will be withdrawn so that we can pass on to the discussion of other Amendments on the Order Paper.
The concluding words just used by the Parliamentary Secretary give rise in my mind to considerable apprehension. Just before he sat down he told us that if the new arrangements were inadequate to meet the situation the Government would reconsider the position and possibly bring in amending legislation.
That might be a reasonable attitude to take when dealing with matters other than the health and safety of the people, but the byelaws which the Bill is to abolish deal with very important matters of daily life of people in urban areas. It is not sufficient for the Parliamentary Secretary to conclude in that airy fashion and say, "If this does not prove adequate we will look at it again." He is dealing with matters of serious import to health and safety.
I am not convinced that the local byelaw powers which will disappear are covered. Section 6 of the principal Act covers a considerable number of matters which local authorities have to deal with from day to day. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) and my hon. Friend the Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson) have pointed out that that particular Section of the principal Act, which is to disappear, and which gives power to make byelaws, has enabled byelaws to be made about all kinds of things that have to be dealt with daily by the sanitary inspectors and other officers of the local authorities.
There are matters mentioned in that Section that are not covered in the Bill. For instance, provision is made to secure the adequate lighting of every room in every house. That may be covered by Clause 8, but what about a nuisance arising from a part of the building or an underground room in respect of which a closing order could be made under Section 12 of the principal Act? That may be dealt with and it may not. Items covered by the principal Act and by the Public Health Acts or the Public Health (London) Acts may or may not be covered here.
They are.
The hon. Gentleman is laying down the law like a Law Officer, but the concluding words of the Parliamentary Secretary gave rise to considerable doubt whether even the Parliamentary Secretary knew the exact position and whether or not these important matters would be covered. In anything as important as the health and safety of the people, the Government should hesitate before sweeping away these provisions, and should first resolve any doubt they may feel. I hope my hon. Friends will press the matter, and that the Parliamentary Secretary will take it back to the Minister to think again about it, and, if necessary, have it put right in another place.
While we should like to press this matter further, because there are several points to be considered and we have been deluged with representations from local authorities about it, we are most anxious to get on to other matters. One of the effects of the Guillotine is that we cannot hope to deal with one problem adequately without ruling out a whole host of other questions we should like to discuss. Our main anxiety is about the standards the Government think adequate. Because we regarded them as being so inadequate, we desired to clarify the position. In view of the discussion we have had, I suggest we should not dwell upon it longer now so that we can go on to discuss other things that must be considered before the Guillotine falls at 8 p.m. I hope we can come to a decision now.
Amendment negatived.
Clause 14.—(AMENDMENTS OF HOUSING ACT, 1949.)
I beg to move, in page 12, line 6, to leave out "ten," and to insert "twenty."
This is not one of the Amendments that have the force of a hydrogen bomb, but it is nevertheless an important one. The provision in the Housing Act, 1949, for improvement grants for houses laid down that a grant should be made to the person making the improvement provided that the house would have a life of 30 years after improvement. The Bill reduces the 30 years to a period "likely to be more than ten years." We think that is a very short period and hardly long enough to justify the expenditure of public money through grants to private builders.
Experience shows that 30 years is, perhaps, a bit long, and so we propose 20 years. We feel that when landlords or public authorities make improvements with the aid of public grants, there ought to be some guarantee that, in return for the expenditure, there will be a reasonable amount of decent housing accommodation. It hardly seems right to leave the period at 10 years. Ten years was the period mentioned in connection with the patching of slum properties. We shall probably get better value for public money if the period were raised from 10 years to 20 years.
I beg to second the Amendment.
In the Standing Committee the Minister promised to consider this matter, and he seemed to think that the difference between us about the 10 years and the 20 years was not substantial. He thought we should agree on 10 years because that gave the local authorities a little more latitude, but from inquiries I have made it seems that local authorities do not wish to have that latitude. They prefer the period of 20 years for a very good reason indeed. They do not want to go into this scheme for a period as short as 10 years, which may be confused with the length of a life of a slum property.
The proposals in the Bill and in the 1949 Act are for dealing with substantial houses, sub-standard in certain respects, such as heating or water supply, but sound structurally and capable of being given a life of 30 years. Thirty years may be too long, but I am absolutely convinced that 10 years is much too short, and that the Minister should accept this Amendment and make the period 20 years.
A landlord will not make the improvements if he can foresee no return on his money after 10 years. The tenant will certainly not agree to have his rent put up for security of tenure as short as 10 years. Besides, if he is thought to be in a reasonably good house he will be deprived of chances of getting a new house through the normal housing schemes. He will not be prepared to go ahead with a scheme that may prejudice his chances of getting a new house.
There will be considerable waste of labour and materials in doing this work if it is done for 10 years only. All the common sense arguments are against the 10-year period. I cannot think of anyone who approves it. So I hope that, as the Government have had time since the Standing Committee to consider this matter, they will accept the Amendment.
We had a very reasonable discussion indeed about this matter in Committee. It is a problem to know where to put the dividing line. To employ the graphic language of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), it is difficult to draw a line in a legislative enactment that will do justice on both sides. If we make the period 20 years, what is to happen to a house in 19 years' time?
7.30 p.m.
The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale imposed a limit of 30 years in his 1949 Act, and I think the whole House agrees that experience has shown that period to be too long. The Bill proposes 10 years and the Amendment seeks to split the difference and make it 20 years. It must be borne in mind that this is permissive and not mandatory; if the local authority does not wish to spend the money, it need not do so. I do not think there will be many cases where the period will be as low as 10 years, but the provision in the Bill will enable houses of 16 to 19 years to be included.
We must distinguish between patching grants, which are for houses which are definitely unfit, and work on this type of house which qualifies for the improvement grant because it is essentially fit. The life of such a house may be short for many reasons—for instance, because the area is to be redeveloped and not necessarily because the house is unfit. We want something in the Bill which will give the local authority scope to decide for itself where the money can best be spent.
I hope there will not be many cases of 10 years, but if we introduce a period of 20 years into the Bill, we may exclude some houses which deserve attention. In Committee my right hon. Friend said he would look again at this matter in view of the reasonable discussion which we had had. He has done so. In Scotland, under the 1950 Act, the period is 10 years. We have looked to see how the Act has worked, and we find that local authorities in Scotland have exercised the financial care and prudence which we always associate with that great nation. In this case we believe that the Welsh and English authorities will show the same financial rectitude and care in dealing with the money entrusted to them.
I recognise the point made by the hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson). We are not seeking to encourage work on a large number of houses with a life of 10 years, but by our provision we enable local authorities to include houses with a life of 16, 17 or 19 years, which are good houses and which they think merit attention. It would be wrong to exclude any house in this category which could be improved.
The period of 10 years is a low period and we do not want to embark on frittering away the national resources on houses which will last for only 10 years, but in certain cases houses which are to last, say, 15 to 19 years, can be made reasonably tolerable if a small amount of money is spent on them and if they are given the amenities which otherwise they will not contain.
As my right hon. Friend has looked carefully at the working of the Scottish Act, and as that working has been found to be wholly satisfactory, I hope the House will accept the period of 10 years and I hope the hon. Member will withdraw his Amendment.
I am disappointed with the answer. I do not think that the Parliamentary Secretary, or the Minister, has done justice to this Clause. It is no use quoting the Scottish precedent because, from what I understand this afternoon, if the hon. Member follows the Scottish precedent it will be necessary to introduce an Amendment to this Bill in another place. In the Scottish Grand Committee an Amendment has been made which we want in this Bill. If the hon. Member wishes to follow Scottish precedent, he should consider the consequences. Fortunately, the Scottish Grand Committee is not working under a Guillotine, and it may be that the Minister in that Committee is subject to greater pressure than is the Minister here.
In 1949 I had to consider very carefully what period to insert in the Bill. That was 1949. This is 1954. What we had then to consider was how much material and labour we should permit to be diverted from new building in order to do what, after all, was secondary work. Obviously, if we had to choose between a new house and reconditioning in the case of most of these houses, we would naturally prefer a new house. Hon. Members should keep in mind that the 1949 Act permitted the central authority and the local authority between them to provide £400 out of public funds where the private owner made a contribution of a similar amount. That was a total of £800. Drawing on my memory, I think that at that time new houses cost much less than £1,600, and they were based on a 60-year loan. Obviously, if we decided to spend £800—£400 of public money and £400 of private money—it was reasonable to ask that the house should live for 30 years. That is how we arrived at the figure.
Of course, £800 was the maximum
I agree. That was a very generous contribution. It meant that one-quarter of the public grant and one-eighth of the whole amount was provided by the local authority.
Hon. Members should bear in mind that the Minister has now decided to lift the ceiling on the total amount. We do not mind that, where it is the private amount; the ceiling remains on the public amount. In 1954 we are further away from the war, and it is reasonable to expect that there is more material available. Of course, we know that there is more labour for this work because in 1949 a large amount of labour was still engaged on war-damage repair—the same sort of labour as that which will be available for this work.
What I then had to bear in mind was a balance of considerations as to how much this work should be encouraged, at the expense, first, of finishing war damage and, secondly, of new building. It seems to me—and I think hon. Members in all parts of the House will agree—that, having regard to all those considerations, 30 years was a reasonable period. I am not arguing that later, when labour and materials are more plentiful, the 30 years' period could not be reduced, because then it would not have the damaging effect on new building and war-damage repairs.
Having regard to all these facts, I do not quarrel very much with the period of 20 years, nor do I quarrel very much with the decision to raise the ceiling, because houses cost more now than they did then and prices have to be adjusted. A house then cost less than, £1,600, all in. I think it cost between £1,300 and £1,400. Therefore, £800 on a 30 years' life was reasonable when compared with £1,300 or £1,400 for 60 years. If houses cost more today, the ceiling should be raised. I accept that. But 10 years is unreasonably low.
I am very much in favour of this work. I have said before, and I do not want to repeat it too frequently, that I believe that a great deal of housing rescue can be done by the intelligent application of these provisions by public authorities and by private owners. When these houses are structurally sound, if we put in modern amenities they frequently make more agreeable residences than do new houses.
I am therefore exceedingly anxious that this work should be done, especially—and this is a word of encouragement to local authorities—when authorities can take these rows of small houses in the older industrial centres and, by taking out a house here and there, provide a much more balanced group. They can put an access road behind, and the group can be made quite charming. The same thing can be done quite frequently with back-to-back houses if a passage can be put right through to get rid of the hideousness of the conditions. If bigger windows and proper heating arrangements are put in, the houses can be quite charming.
I am not condemning houses merely because they are old—to do so would be a ridiculous point of view. Therefore, I am anxious for this enactment to be carried out. But for 10 years the local authorities would not dream of doing it. They would not think of spending their money on houses that would last for only 10 years, and I hope they will not do so.
Nor would the landlords.
Nor would the landlords. The Minister has gone to the other extreme. His proposal will discourage the thing being done by private owners, because the local authorities will not agree. It seems to me more reasonable to put in the figure 20.
Another reason, which was used in Committee and which is strictly applicable, is this. Why should the Minister expose himself quite unnecessarily to a comparison between these houses and patching up In the case of the patched-up houses, it is assumed that many of them would last for much more than 10 years. Why spend £400? That is the maximum; it can be done. It can be £800 and it can be more, if the private owner wants to do it. Why on earth should we spend that money on a house which might last for only 10 years? It is an unreasonable diversion of material and labour to comparatively frivolous purposes. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will look at this matter again.
Just because Scotland has done this, there is no reason why England should do it. I do not want to quarrel with my Scottish colleagues, but it is well known that our Scottish friends have had concessions that the English and Welsh do not have, because Scottish housing conditions tend quite often to be lower than those of England and Wales. Therefore, perhaps, in that case 10 years looks more acceptable for Scotland.
The period of ten years is not accepted by us. I hope, therefore, that the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to say that he will look at this again and will try to put in another figure in another place. If he is unable to give that assurance, we must vote against the Government, because we think they are encouraging local authorities to spend money frivolously and private landlords to succumb to their immediate anxieties in exchange for long-term headaches.
The right hon. Gentleman has shown that in most cases a local authority would not want to improve a house which had a reasonable prospect of less than 20 years' life. I think he he also shown that from the point of view of the great majority of private owners of houses, it would not be a remunerative operation to obtain an improvement grant unless there were at least that life. But what the House has to decide is whether there are no cases where a local authority would want to spend, not £400, but, say, £100 or £150, on a reasonably sound house to give it extra accommodation in the way of a lavatory or bathroom, even if only 10 years' life could be certainly foreseen.
There is no party issue about this; it is a question of practical application. If a house is sound, no one can say that it is sound for 10 years but is not sound for longer. What we are talking about is a sound house which might live for more than 10 years on its own strength if it is not killed by a statute, in the way of a development order or something of that sort. It seems to me, therefore, that a house which is structurally sound for 10 years and wants something spent on it to give it amenities would last longer than 10 years.
7.45 p.m.
The right hon. Gentleman has himself acknowledged that there may well be cases where within the knowledge of the local authority the house is unlikely to be standing and providing accommodation for more than 10 years or so. A local authority may read that, for example, from its own development plan.
Take the case of the private owner. I do not doubt that in the great majority of cases—it is a matter of simple arithmetic—6 per cent. or thereabouts over 10 years is not a remunerative return. But many landowners in the agricultural areas make improvements to their houses—in some cases without grant at all—without consideration of the direct return which they will get in rent. Of course, they get an indirect return in the general value and workability of the whole estate. It would be a pity to exclude the marginal case where a landlord would wish, although he could not foresee more than a 15 years' life for a house and although he was not going to get a full return for the money in rent, nevertheless to make an improvement on it and to obtain grant from the local authority to assist in the improvement.
I think, therefore, that the House ought not to rule out what admittedly and in the view of both sides of the House would be a very marginal case.
I can speak again only with the permission of the House. I have thought about this very seriously. There was considerable opposition by my hon. Friends against public money at all being used for this purpose; they thought it was quite unreasonable. Having regard to the fact that we still have a great deal of housing work to do, it seems to me that people ought not to be encouraged to spend money on houses with so short an expectation of life as this. If the hon. Gentleman cannot assure us that he will reconsider the matter again, we are bound to divide the House. I am sorry to do so, but we are bound to do it.
I, too, can speak only with the leave of the House. I tried to make it clear that what we had in mind was not that a whole series of houses should be converted at £800 for a 10 years' life, which is extremely doubtful, but that 10 years should be the minimum; because in certain cases it would be desirable, perhaps, for the local authority to deal with a house which had 16, 17, 18 or 19 years of life and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) said, to spend £110 or £120 on it. In that case, £120 over 19 years would not be unreasonable on a good house in a suitable condition where the 19 years' life was imposed upon the house merely because of development in the area.
Surely, no local authority at this stage can foresee exactly what will happen 19 years hence. The position would be covered by accepting the figure of 20, because the wording would be:
"are likely to provide satisfactory housing accommodation"
for 20 years. If we are making the decision now, surely we should consider that a house which might last only 19 years would be likely to provide housing accommodation for 20 years. It is a silly point that the hon. Gentleman is making.
It was not quite as silly as the hon. Member thinks. The main purpose of specifying 10 years is not to divert national resources on a large scale to a number of houses, but to make sure that we do not exclude from the operation of the Clause improvements on houses on which a local authority thought it was desirable that improvements or conversion should be carried out.
I have listened very carefully to what has been said. We promised in Committee to look at the matter, and we have done so. My right hon. Friend, after examining all the evidence available, came to the conclusion that he would like 10 years to be specified in the Bill. I certainly will look at the matter again, but I do so entirely without commitment or assurance that anything will be done, because the matter has already been thoroughly thrashed out. If it would meet the right hon. Gentleman's wishes, I am willing to go into the matter again with my right hon. Friend in the light of this debate, but, as I say, without commitment. I have noticed how this matter has been treated on a non-party basis.
The purpose we have in mind is to see that a number of houses would not be excluded by an arbitrary figure of 20 years. We want to see improvements carried out and we want to see the scheme working effectively, because, as the right hon. Gentleman has told us, there are more resources available now for that class of work. I hope that, with that assurance, hon. Gentlemen opposite will not divide the House on this Amendment.
I should like my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to view with some sympathy the points made by the Opposition, and for this quite frank reason. I think that on balance we are not talking about a great deal, because I do not think the local authorities or the owners will do much in the 10, 11 or 12-year periods; but we have had a statement from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) which may be very helpful in getting something done under the 1949 Act. Little has been done under that Act, and many local authorities of the way of thinking of the right hon. Gentleman have been loath to do it. They attach importance to keeping this type of work quite separate from patching work.
I think this would be a very small price to pay for getting greater agreement on both sides of the House and something effective done under the 1949 Act. For that reason alone, I think it might be well worth while looking at this matter again, and I hope that my hon. Friend will be in a position to do so.
I speak again with the permission of the House. In view of the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary, while realising that it was not committal in any way but hoping that, on reconsideration, he will be able to go some way to meet us, because a reduction from 30 years to 10 years is drastic, I would ask my hon. Friend to withdraw this Amendment.
In view of the Parliamentary Secretary's assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 17.—(EXTENSION OF PERIOD OF USE OF OPEN SPACES FOR TEMPORARY HOUSING ACCOMMODATION.)
I beg to move, in page 14, line 36, to leave out from "Minister," to the end of line 38, and to insert:
"for such period as it appears to him that housing conditions require."
I shall have to be brief about what I have to say about this Amendment, but it might be for the convenience of the House if we considered at the same time the Amendment in page 15, to line 3, to leave out from "shall," to "submit," in line 4, and to insert:
"upon being directed to do so by the Minister."
I think the whole question of temporary houses built on open spaces is one of particular importance to Manchester in general, and to my constituency in particular.
The hon. Member has mentioned two other Amendments which it might be convenient to consider with this one, but I think that the one immediately below this one, in page 14, line 39, to leave out subsection (2), is the one to go with the Amendment that has been moved.
I suggested that with this one we might consider the Amendments to lines 3 to 4 on page 15, which are in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe (Mrs. Hill). I understood that the Amendment to line 39, to leave out subsection (2), was not being called.
Is the hon. Gentleman moving his Amendment in page 14, line 36?
Yes.
I understood that that one went with the one immediately below it, to line 39, to leave out subsection (2).
I might assist. With this Amendment I think the next two go, namely, to line 39, and to line 3 on page 15. They are all concerned with the same point of principle.
I was under the impression that the Amendment to line 3 on page 15 and the Amendment to line 5 on page 15, both in the name of the hon. Member for Wythenshawe (Mrs. Hill) and the hon. Member for Blackley (Mr. E. Johnson) went together. In other words, they are two sets of two.
There is very little time left to consider these Amendments, and I shall content myself with my Amendment to line 36. The whole question is set against the background of the housing problem generally, and if I may I should like to refer to Manchester in particular. In that city there are 1,530 of these temporary houses built in public parks. We are also faced with the problem of dealing with 68,000 houses under Part I of this Bill and providing facilities for 17,000 families now living in lodgings. If we build at the rate of 3,000 houses or 3,500 houses a year it will take us about 20 years to deal with the problem.
I fully realise that Manchester is not well equipped with public open spaces, and naturally we want to get back as soon as possible those parks on which temporary houses have been built. My hon. Friend and I naturally want to see those of our constituents living in temporary houses found permanent homes, but the main factor I want to stress is that we think it would be wrong to pull down these temporary houses while people have still got to live in unfit houses which in many cases are in much worse condition than the prefabs. The issue is between housing and open spaces, and my hon. Friend and I hold the view that houses must come first. We believe that this is particularly the case with Manchester, because prefabs only occupy 155 acres out of the 1,298 acres of the parks in the city and we have an immense housing problem.
I must give my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary a moment to reply, but I would ask him to look at it from that point of view, recognising that while there is a desire to get back our public parks, we feel that it ought not to be done at the expense of people in unfit houses.
I beg to second the Amendment.
Manchester, like other parts of the country, feels very strongly that this Bill should contain a provision for the extension of the time for the prefabs. In a large city such as ours, when so much rehousing requires to be done, it seems that the issue definitely is—do we put people into houses, or do we give them football pitches? I suggest that housing must come first, and if we were to pull the prefabs down, even in small blocks, that would create a difficulty at the present time, even though we would be giving back a little free land to the parks. I ask my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to help us in this matter.
My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley (Mr. E. Johnson) was quite right when he said that this was a question of the balance between open spaces and housing. It is true that some open space was taken for housing purposes in 1945 for a limited period of 10 years. Under this Bill my right hon. Friend could extend it further for five years at the end of the period without an inquiry, or up to 1965 with an inquiry, which is an extension of 10 years, or exactly double the original time for which we took the open spaces. He has gone a long way towards meeting housing needs as against open space needs.
In Manchester we realise that things are very difficult, and they are very anxious about this because they have more temporary houses on open spaces than any other local authority. But if they put these people into 5 per cent. of the new houses they build, at the end of 10 years they will have solved the problem and the open space will revert to its original purpose. My hon. Friend has gone far enough in allowing this extra 10 years, and in 10 years' time perhaps another Minister will be able to introduce legislation to extend the time further if it is necessary. In view of all the circumstances therefore, I would ask my hon. Friend to withdraw his Amendment.
This is a matter which affects not merely Manchester but Birmingham and any other large city. It is a problem which will give very grave concern in the immediate future, because these houses were built as temporary accommodation and they are providing satisfactory accommodation. It is quite true that they were intended in the first place to last 10 years, but it is obvious that they will last very much longer. In Birmingham, there are between 50,000 to 60,000 people on the housing register, and there is going to be an outcry if these temporary houses are demolished in five or 10 years' time without an inquiry. These houses are providing perfectly good accommodation and—
It being Eight o'Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Orders, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments, moved by a Member of the Government, of which notice had been given, to that part of the Bill to be concluded at Eight o'Clock.
Amendments made: In page 15, line 3, leave out "three," and insert "six."
Clause 21.—(REPAIRS INCREASE FOR DWELLING-HOUSE IN GOOD REPAIR.)
I beg to move, in page 16, line 29, at the end, to insert "in good condition; and."
I suggest that this Amendment should be taken with the Amendment to Clause 45, page 34, line 25, to insert a definition of "good condition."
We come now to the most controversial part of this Bill, probably for the last time, increasing rent with no guarantee to the tenant that he will get any real comparable service in respect of maintenance and repairs. A large number of constituents in my area have had little or nothing done to their houses for a goodly number of years, but all the time they have been paying in their rent a weekly sum supposed to be used by the landlord for repairs. Some rents were increased in the inter-war years to meet increased costs, and the greater part has just been pocketed by the landlord and little or nothing has been done.
Under this Bill, if the landlord says that in the last 12 months he has spent a stated sum of money equal to three times the statutory difference, he is able to get it all back not only in the current year but an equal sum in each succeeding year, with no guarantee that in those succeeding years he will spend anything upon the repairs that are needed in the house.
To the average tenant in my constituency the increase in rent will be anything between 6s. and 9s. a week, and what are they going to get for that? A fit house? A properly maintained and serviced house? A house that will meet the needs of the health and the welfare of the families they will bring up? Nothing of the kind. What they will get is merely a house which just satisfies the conditions repeated in this Clause and laid down in Clause 8 (1), conditions that make it possible for the house just to escape condemnation as being unfit for human habitation, maybe not even that.
But if the landlord says that he has spent the stated sum of money upon a little external painting and pointing, unless the tenant gets a certificate of disrepair from the local authority, the rent goes on just the same. Speaking with the knowledge of many years, I say that in the history of our area the relationships between the landlord and the tenant have been such that it is certain that a large number of people in my area will be definitely afraid of taking action against their landlords.
As long ago as 1919, the Ministry of Health published a manual of unfit houses in which was included a standard for a fit house. It said, in the very words which we are including in our definition of good condition to be placed in Clause 45 of this Bill, that a fit house should be free from serious dampness, satisfactorily lighted and ventilated, properly drained and provided with adequate sanitary conveniences, with a sink and suitable arrangements for the disposal of waste water, that it should have a satisfactory water supply, adequate washing accommodation, adequate facilities for preparing and cooking food, and a well-ventilated food store.
We want that included, but, say hon. Gentlemen opposite, as they have said in Committee upstairs, we have put in a definition which is a guarantee that those sort of things will be adequately dealt with, for although we have not adopted that actual standard, we have said that the dwelling-house is to be in good repair, and in defining what good repair shall be, we say it shall be in good repair both as respects structure and decoration. But in the 1919 manual pretty well the same thing was said as in this definition. It said that the house should be in good general repair, and surely good general repair includes both structure and decoration?
When the Mitchell Sub-Committee of the Central Housing Advisory Committee considered this matter, they said definitely that the standard of fitness should be made operative. They said:
This Amendment represents, from our point of view, the last ditch into which we have been driven by the Minister, and, from the point of view of hon. and right hon. Members opposite, the last opportunity of showing that they have some conscience in this matter. The definition which it is sought to be inserted here as one of the conditions of an increase of rent is the Mitchell Committee's definition of what is a house fit for habitation. If it is suggested that the landlord should be entitled to recover an increase in rent for any lower standard than what is here prescribed, it means that he is entitled to an increase in rent for what is undoubtedly a house unfit for human habitation. There the matter rests so far as the increase in rent is concerned.
I remind hon. and right hon. Members opposite that this definition was originally sought to be inserted in place of what they have put in what is now Clause 8 of the Bill. That is to say, it was sought to be inserted for an even lower purpose or an even lower standard—that which if it were not reached in the case of a house would involve demolition or the other penalties and remedies under the Housing Act, 1926. Having failed to have that inserted as a standard of fitness for human habitation, we are now trying to put it into the Bill as a standard below which the landlord would not be entitled to obtain an increase in rent.
Will the Minister reply that really these things are quite unnecessary and that where a house is affected by serious dampness, is not satisfactorily lighted, not satisfactorily ventilated, not properly drained and not provided with satisfactory sanitary conveniences, has no sink and no suitable arrangements for the disposal of waste water, facilities for storage and the preparation and cooking of food and so on, the landlord is still entitled as a matter of high policy to take an increased rent? I cannot really believe that the Minister will have the courage, the rashness, and, if I may use so unparliamentary an expression, what is commonly known as the cheek, to say anything of the sort.
I cannot believe that we shall have that defence. Perhaps we are going to be told that it is not a question of the kind of house but its state of repair. I suggest that that is a somewhat false distinction. If one seeks in the Bill for a definition of repair one finds that precisely nothing is said, except that good repair means good repair with certain limitations. Therefore, it is advisable to have some kind of additional standard added at this point.
I will not take up the time of the House for long on this simple and obvious matter. I should have thought that it was a matter of common sense and justice that would appeal to all of us that if a man was compelled by circumstances to live in a house which was not in a good condition, which was damp and which had no proper ventilation and was obviously below the standard of what he ought to be compelled to live in, then it was not the type of property which would entitle the landlord to put up the rent. I should have said that a man who was prepared to live in a house like that was entitled to some protection and not to have his rent raised against him as a matter of high policy under this Bill.
8.15 p.m.
I say, therefore, that if this Amendment cannot be accepted it will show that hon. and right hon. Members opposite in this matter are entirely oblivious to the state of some of the rent-controlled houses in this country and oblivious of the general obligation to provide a tenant in a case of this kind with something fit to live in. If the Government are not prepared to incorporate that in the Bill they are disregarding necessary safeguards on the tenant's behalf to an extent that I feel certain this House ought never to accept.
I have not recently intervened in this debate, but I feel compelled on this issue to add a few words to what has been said from this side of the House. I regard this matter as of critical importance. Not only will it be an absolute scandal if the Minister does not accept the Amendment, but a most damnable instance of bad faith on the part of the Minister. I have been looking at the White Paper and at what was said by the Minister when he announced this scheme some two or three months ago. He then claimed that this increase in rent would only be permitted to the best landlords in respect of property maintained in a good state of repair and decoration. Does he forget what he said in the White Paper?
The object of the Amendment is to enable the Minister to live up to his own professions and protestations. I, like my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar (Mr. Key), have a large number of dwellings in my constituency, and it is of critical importance to the tenants to know whether or not their rent can be increased under the provisions of this Bill. I maintain, and I was hoping that the Minister would agree, that increases of rent should only be permitted if there is a scrupulously high and rigorous standard to which landlords conform.
I am confident that, unless this Amendment with the definition of good condition is accepted a large number of people will be threatened with increases of rent and victimised by increases of rent in conditions in which it would be quite intolerable to ask them to pay more rent. I hope the Minister accepts the Amendment and that it will go out of this House that no tenant should be asked to pay any increase of rent unless all the conditions laid down with regard to satisfactory lighting, ventilation, drainage, sanitary arrangements and so forth are established in respect of such dwelling.
May I make a further appeal to the right hon. Gentleman? He has reduced to the absolute minimum what is essential for a house to be in good repair and unless he puts some definition of this kind in the Bill, he is placing the tenant in an extreme difficulty. The landlord will be allowed to say that the house is in good condition, and to make other statements about the amount of money he has spent on repairs without any test being imposed, particularly where the good condition part is concerned, and without any certificate being obtained from anybody.
I see nothing in the Bill which compels the landlord to obtain a certificate from any local authority or anybody else and he will merely make a statement that the place is in good condition. An hon. Gentleman opposite has suggested that the tenant is perfectly entitled to go to the county court and say to the judge, "This place is not in a good condition," and the judge will go down and see it and agree.
But things do not work out like that. First of all, the man will have to get off from work and his employers will have to allow him to be away perhaps for a day or two. He will have to present his own case and to get evidence and go to the expense of getting witnesses. It may be a day when witnesses cannot come, and it may be that he is a man who cannot afford to have any representation. How will he satisfy the court that the place is not in good condition unless he has some kind of standard on which to base his claim. Without all that assistance, the landlord would have to satisfy the court that the condition was such as required by the Act.
This is no small matter. It is very important, and I am sure the House will forgive me if I again point out that not only was the house in respect of which the rent was permitted to be increased by 25 per cent. supposed to be in good condition, but it was supposed to be in a good state of repair. [ Interruption.] Oh, yes; if hon. Gentleman do not agree, perhaps they will look at the 1920 Act or the Acts of 1933 and 1938 and one or two of the others. The result has been that not only have these houses not been kept in good repair, but that the country is covered with slums. Unless the Minister does something about it, what will happen here is what has happened in the past when landlords—one hon. Gentleman suggested 999 out of a thousand, but I will not go as far as that, although investigations in my constituency suggest there were about 50 per cent. in one street—have not been prevented from taking rents for 20 or 30 years and putting them in their pockets instead of putting them into the buildings.
The right hon. Gentleman cannot say that he will leave this to the good sense, the good taste or the good will of the landlord because a large number of them have never exercised any of those virtues, but have pocketed as much as they could and done as little as they could.
When I was speaking yesterday, the Parliamentary Secretary, in his usual cynical manner, suggested that I did not know what Minister was in charge when the report to which my hon. Friend has referred was produced. I did. It was the Minister of Health. I mention the Ministry of Health because this is a matter of health, and if it is a question of a decision having to be made relating to the good condition of the house, it is not only the housing Minister, but the Minister of Health who ought to have a say in it. What does the Minister of Health say about this?
That does not appear to arise on this Amendment.
I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker; but after all, we are here talking about a good state of repair. If a house is not in a good state of repair, it is unhealthy, and if it is unhealthy the Minister of Health has some concern in it, and that is the way I was trying to illustrate it.
I would ask the right hon. Gentleman, at this twelfth hour—and it is almost a twelfth hour, because we are getting towards the end of the proceedings on this Bill—to try to be as reasonable as possible. Reasonable we cannot expect, but I ask him to be as near reasonable as possible, and to realise that he cannot leave the Bill as it is in this indefinite way but that he must set down some standard. What we are asking is for the minimum that can be accepted.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) had the excuse of perhaps not being well informed on the precise details of which he was speaking, that he has not had the opportunity of following the Bill through Committee. I should like to assure him that I accept the general point of view he has put forward, and hope to be able to show him that what he wanted is included in the Bill.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman is not attacking me for not having been a member of the Committee. We cannot all be on a Committee, and it is bad enough to be Guillotined.
I was not attacking the hon. Gentleman, but explaining that, although I agreed with the spirit of what he said, I hoped I would be able to show him that we do carry out what he wanted. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Janner) has no such excuse. Not only was he present at the Committee, but he took a considerable part in the debates, and although he makes a good speech, even at the twelfth hour, he makes almost the same speech whatever may be the subject of the Amendment.
The right hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Key), in moving the Amendment, began by making two preliminary points. In his experience, he said, a large number of landlords—he did not say 999 out of a thousand—had done little or nothing to keep houses in good repair. He went on to say that tenants will be afraid of taking action against the landlord in the county court. With relation to this Amendment, both those observations are irrelevant, because, if they have done little or nothing in 20 or 30 years, it is extremely doubtful whether the houses would pass the first condition set out in the Bill for obtaining the repairs increase. They would not pass the second condition, that of producing the necessary bills to show what had been spent, because if nothing was spent no repairs increase would be obtained. Therefore the right hon. Gentleman's preliminary observations rule out the major part of his argument.
8.30 p.m.
I say that, although the landlord has spent nothing within the period, the tenants themselves have spent a good deal of money and expended their own individual labour in doing for themselves what the landlord ought to have done. Secondly, so far as the money is concerned, the landlord has only to spend it within the next 12 months and he can gain an increase of rent for ever after.
Yes, but if he has spent nothing and continues to spend nothing he will not satisfy condition one or condition two.
We have had long discussions in the Committee, and it is really a question of what definition we should adopt. It is not a question whether we have this definition, but which definition it is right to adopt for this purpose. We discussed this at great length in Committee, and the Opposition put forward very frankly and argued very well the view that we should adopt as the repair condition, the first condition for the increase apart from the expenditure condition, the standard prescribed by the Mitchell Committee—the 16-poinit standard. I will not go through it in detail; it is well known to all of us.
I must remind the House, especially those Members who were not on the Standing Committee, that the purpose of that standard, as set out, is to secure a house which, when improved, will bear comparison with what is regarded as proper for a new dwelling. It was a standard which was to apply when improvements under the 1949 Act of the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) were to be paid for to the extent of half, or partly, at the public expense; that is to say, that where public money is to be asked for to improve a house that house must be brought up to the standard of a modern house. That is a perfectly fair and reasonable system. It has been operating and it is not to be changed.
To say, however, that every house can be brought up to the standard of a modern house without anything being done to deal with what the hon. Member would admit is the problem of getting sufficient income on the house to keep it in good repair is to say that no house 20, 30 or 40 years old is to be dealt with at all. If we tried to do that, all that would happen is what happens on some other occasions in connection with our legislation of the best being the enemy of the good.
rose —
I wish to complete my point. The hon. and learned Gentleman has addressed the House and the Committee, and he can speak again if he wishes to, or he can raise a point.
I am saying that we discussed this matter at great length in the Committee. I pointed out that this standard was fair for dwellings which were being improved with the aid of the grant—I refer to the Mitchell standard.
I wish to put two points to the Minister. The first is that the Mitchell Committee reported in 1946 or 1947, but the grant to which the right hon. Gentleman refers did not come into existence until 1949.
I know that.
Secondly, it is not that standard which we are now discussing. We are discussing the other standard of the Mitchell Committee—that for a fit house.
The lower standard could not be applied, and has not been applied either by the right hon. Gentleman opposite or myself, to a house in the country in that precise form.
I am trying to convert a new participant in our discussions. [ Interruption. ] We have talked so much among ourselves that it is no use my trying to convert the others. The hon. Member for Islington, East studies these matters carefully, and I wish to be fair. We think that the proper test should be, first, that the house should be in good repair. That is laid down now. In point of fact, I am advised that the difference between good condition and good repair is very small—[An HON. MEMBER: "Without the definition."] With the definition. We say, first, that the house must be in good repair both as regards structure and as regards decoration. It would not be fair for it to go out that we are saying that there is no definition or test of what the condition of the house must be if the benefit of the grant is to be drawn in respect of it.
That is the first part of the definition. I now come to the second part. At the same time, the repairs increase ought clearly not to be given to the landlord of a house which, apart from repair, is unfit for human habitation. A house might be in good repair and yet be unfit for human habitation. There might be a situation in which a house could be said to be in good repair as regards structure and decoration and yet it might not be fit for habitation. Therefore, we apply a second test and that is as stated in Clause 8, which says:
May I put a concrete case to the Minister? In my constituency we have a large number of houses which are 70, 80, 90 or 100 years old. Some of them are not unfit for habitation because some of the landlords have carried out certain repairs, but I would not have thought that houses of that calibre, however much had been spent on repairs, would justify an increase in rent.
The hon. Gentleman thinks that these houses would be admitted and not excluded by this definition. How he knows that, I find it difficult to understand. The definition has not yet been applied. It is the best we can do to get as near as we can to the Mitchell definition. We should like to go further, but then we should not be doing what we are trying to do, which is to get the houses repaired. That is the whole object of the Bill.
Of course, it would be easy for a Minister to say, "I am the Minister who has made obligatory some new or higher standard." I do not think that the Mitchell standard, together with the phrase "good condition"—that is the Amendment which we are now discussing—makes any substantial advance. Indeed, in some ways it is much more difficult to apply than the dual standard in Clause 8 to which I have just referred.
Let us examine it. It says that the house shall be reasonably suitable for occupation. The Amendment says that it shall be
Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, in the case of the Amendment submitted by this side of the House, it is putting forward the proposal that there should be a positive standard—which is what the local authorities are anxious to have—instead of the vague indication in the existing proposal without any definition at all?
That is a matter of opinion. I regard this definition as even more vague, because how could a court say, on the one hand, that a house was reasonably suitable for occupation with regard to ventilation, and then that it was not satisfactorily ventilated? In my opinion, therefore, the Amendment adds nothing of any value. I must rely upon the dual definition which I have tried to give—first, that it should be in good repair both as regards structure and decoration, and then rely on the broad application of the definition in Clause 8, which is the best definition we can get.
I frankly admit, of course, that in defining these things we shall never get absolute exactness. That is just as true of the new definition. I am sure, after very careful consideration, that the wording in the Bill is more precise and will enable us to do the two things that we want to do. I know that we all want to see houses which are in bad condition removed.
I have admitted from the start that there are many houses which cannot be brought to a satisfactory condition. I have never claimed that this repairs increase can put every house into good condition and repair, but there are houses which have dropped a little and can be made to serve the nation for many years to come. Of course, I know there are many which have got to be destroyed altogether, and we are going to set about destroying them. There is another million which will have to go, because an economic rent could not be asked by any local authority to pay for the amount which would have to be spent on them.
But I do know that we have tried very hard to get the right position in between the two extremes. Out of the new income we shall get the repairs done to the houses which can be repaired at a reasonable cost and, having been repaired, can be kept in condition. I believe there are millions of them. But if we do not accept this rents problem and run away from it, as everybody has up to now, the condition of those houses will just go down and down. Then it will not be a matter of £20, £30 or £40 being spent on them, but they will either have to be pulled down and written off, or it will be a matter of spending £300. I ask the House to rest upon the definition which we have decided upon after great thought and much debate.
In comparing the definition in the Bill with the definition in the Mitchell Report, the Minister should bear one fact in mind. The Mitchell Report sets out certain mandatory conditions. It says that a house must be free from damp and must be in good condition as to water supply, and so on. This Bill does not say that. Clause 8 says, not that the house must be free from damp and must be in good condition as to water supply, but that "regard shall be had to" these matters. The words "regard shall be had to" are entirely vague. That is why we on these benches say that the definition in this Bill is nowhere near so satisfactory as the definition in the Mitchell Report. Indeed, there is no standard mentioned at all, and that is what we object to.
The Minister said, "You cannot knock a house down simply because it is not quite free from damp. You cannot knock a house down because it is defective in this respect." But we are not now dealing with the question of knocking houses down. We are dealing with the case of a landlord who demands an increase in rent. Surely we ought to demand the highest standard of repair. We ought not to say, "This is a house which just falls outside the definition of a house which ought to be demolished." The house ought to be in a proper state of repair as defined by the Committee set up by Parliament to consider this question of the definition of standards. Therefore, we feel that the Minister's reply in this respect is entirely unsatisfactory.
8.45 p.m.
There will be a continuation of what has happened all along. Landlords are to have increases of rent for houses which are not in a proper condition and where the state of repair is not sufficiently defined. As was said yesterday, when we talk about good repair and decoration we must have regard to the age. locality and character of the premises. What on earth do these qualifications mean? How will they be interpreted by a court?
In those circumstances, we say that the so-called standard set up by the Minister is entirely unsatisfactory. I am hoping that my hon. Friends will press this Amendment to a Division. I consider it to be an important matter which goes to the root of the proposed rent increase and the suggested safeguard, which we believe is no safeguard at all.
I was looking forward with some pleasure to receiving the same sort of cheers as greeted the appearance of my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher). One rises to speak with some trepidation, with the feeling of being like an unwanted guest at a family feast. Yet, after all, surely those of us who did not have the pleasure—if pleasure it was—of serving on the Committee upstairs, and who had to acquaint ourselves with the proceedings there by reading about them are entitled on Report stage to have an opportunity to put forward the views and grievances of our constituents about details in the Bill as well as the general principle. That is why, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I sought to catch your eye, as I wish to say something about this very important part of the Bill.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Poplar (Mr. Key) said that his constituents are very much affected by the provision in the Bill for the increase of rents. My constituents are similarly affected. I greatly regret that under this atrocious and shocking Guillotine procedure hon. Members have not the opportunity to put forward the views of their constituents.
For a long time many of my constituents have been living in houses which are not too delightful to live in and have found themselves faced with the necessity of doing their own repairs. Indeed, I am astonished at the trouble and care, not to mention the paint and plaster, which they have lavished on houses belonging to other people. The right hon. Gentleman may say, "Yes, but if they have a landlord who never spends any money on the property, they need not fear, because he will not be able to charge any increased rent until he has spent some more money." That is all very well as a general argument. But my constituents know their landlords and I, because of the cases which have come before me, know some of them by repute.
If the landlord is to be put into a position where, by spending a little money, he can ask for more rent, the tenants wish to ensure that they get value for the money. After the notice has been served on them and the landlord has spent the required amount of money and wishes to increase the rent, the onus lies on them of proving that what he has done is not satisfactory. So, in addition to wanting to be sure that they get value for their money, they wish to know clearly what are their rights and how they can judge under the statute whether the conditions have been satisfied.
The necessary conditions for charging increases of rent must be something more than just being able to say that the house is fit for human habitation, and we are all agreed about that, but that condition, by itself, is hopelessly unsatisfactory, particularly because it uses the words "having regard to," which do not give a very clear and satisfactory definition of What the sanitary inspector must look for when he goes to investigate a complaint made by the tenant.
I am sure that what the local authorities want—and I have here a letter to say so, because I am speaking with the approval of the chairman of the Housing Committee of Middlesbrough—is a clearer definition of what must be the satisfactory standard which the house must reach before the rent increase is approved, which definition can be clearly understood by the sanitary inspector when he goes to investigate a complaint. There is no doubt whatever that a definition which will assist the sanitary inspector is desired by my local authority, and, I believe, by many others.
A publicly-known definition, surely, will greatly reduce the area of disagreement, and, therefore, minimise resort to the courts, which is the point to which the right hon. Gentleman ought to be addressing his mind more carefully than he has done. That point is how he can satisfy tenants, landlords, sanitary inspectors and everybody concerned in the whole procedure so that they will clearly know what they are to do and satisfy themselves by proper agreement without having to go to the courts at all. The less they go to the courts, maybe the better for all concerned. With the definition at present in the Bill, my constituents will not be satisfied that they are getting value for their money, as they want to do.
From looking up the proceedings on this Bill upstairs, I understand that the right hon. Gentleman gave an undertaking to look at this matter again when another Amendment of this nature was moved by one of my hon. Friends. I must presume that, as the right hon. Gentleman promised to do so, he has looked at it again, but, in listening to what he has said tonight, I could not easily perceive how he had done so, because it seemed to me that he said tonight only what he said upstairs.
The proposal which he has put into the Bill is certainly not good enough, and the suggested standard which we have brought before the House tonight seems to us to be a positive standard without any possibility of misunderstanding by any person who knows anything at all about the subject; indeed, without any possibility of misunderstanding by any reasonable human being who has ever lived in a house at all.
It will not be any use to say that tenants are already so well accustomed to and familiar with the sort of procedure required in this case that they will understand very well their rights from the definition laid down by the statute. It is not my experience that large numbers of my constituents who are tenants of this sort of house understand this procedure very well at all. If they did, even under the existing statute they would have resorted to the courts more frequently than in fact they have done, and would not have sat down under the injustices which they have suffered. Nor is it sensible to suppose that landlords are so good that we can rely upon their good judgment in this matter. Nobody can think that, whatever the percentage he likes to put the figure at.
The major defect of the right hon. Gentleman's speech in rejecting the Amendment was that it made no real effort to tell us what the right hon. Gentleman finds wrong in the definition proposed in the Amendment. He did not examine it thoroughly but based himself entirely on the argument, which upstairs he had previously agreed to look at again, that his own existing definition was all that was required. For reasons which I have already given, and particularly because of the words "having regard to," we do not think those conditions are satisfactory.
It was unfortunate that the right hon. Gentleman did not examine them more carefully. Indeed, I gathered at one point in his speech that he seemed to be confused about the various paragraphs of the Mitchell Report, but I had better
not refer to that, because I must confess that I have no special knowledge of that matter.
In the light of the opinions which I have formed on reading some of the proceedings upstairs, from my personal experience of far too many cases brought to my attention where landlords are swindling their tenants by various devices, and because of my conviction of the necessity to protect tenants by giving them a fair definition of their rights, I cannot be satisfied with the definition that the right hon. Gentleman has put down or with the defence of it which he put forward tonight.
I am particularly struck with the words in the definition of "good repair":
"having regard to the age, character and locality of the premises."
Large sections of my constituency are unfortunately in a dismal state, a general state of what I regard as under-repair. I presume that the criteria I have quoted will be applied to them, and that the tenants are going to foe told, "Your place is no worse than all those around you, having regard to the age, character and locality of your house. It may be a rotten little house, and it may not have satisfactory provision for washing and sanitation, but it is as good as your neighbours have got, and therefore it qualifies, and your landlord is entirely justified in getting some more money out of you in addition to the money that he has been taking all this time without your house being properly attended to."
We have in front of us a proposal, not to relieve, but to perpetuate misery, and to charge an increased rent for it. I hope that my hon. and right hon. Friends will divide the House upon it.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes. 242; Noes, 259.
Division No. 68.] AYES [8.59 p.m. Acland, Sir Richard Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) Brown, Thomas (Ince) Adams, Richard Bing, G. H. C. Burton, Miss F. E Albu, A. H. Blackburn, F. Callaghan, L. J. Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Blenkinsop, A. Carmichael, J. Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) Blyton, W. R. Castle, Mrs. B. A. Awbery, S. S. Boardman, H. Champion, A. J. Bacon, Miss Alice Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Chapman, W. D. Baird, J. Bowden, H. W. Chetwynd, G. R Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J Bowles, F. G. Clunie, J. Bartley, P. Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Coldrick, W. Bence, C. R. Brockway, A. F. Collick, P. H. Benn, Hon. Wedgwood Brook, Dryden (Halifax) Corbet, Mrs. Freda Benson, G. Broughton, Dr. A. D D Cove, W. G.
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Kenyon, C. Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) Crosland, C. A. R. Key, Rt. Hon. C W Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) Crossman, R. H. S. King, Dr. H. M Ross, William Cullen, Mrs. A. Lee, Frederick (Newton) Royle, C. Daines, P. Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Shackleton, E. A. A. Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley Darling, George (Hillsborough) Lindgren, G. S. Short, E. W. de Freitas, Geoffrey Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. Shurmer, P. L. E. Deer, G. Logan, D. G. Silverman, Julius (Erdington) Delargy, H. J. MacColl, J. E. Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) Dodds, N. N. McGhee, H. G. Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) Donnelly, D. L McGovern, J. Skeffington, A. M. Driberg, T. E. N. Mclnnes, J. Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield) Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W Bromwich) McKay, John (Wallsend) Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. McLeavy, F. Smith, Norman (Nottingham) Edelman, M. MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Snow, J. W. Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) McNeil, Rt. Hon. H. Sorensen, R. W. Edwards W. J. (Stepney) MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Mainwaring, W. H. Sparks, J. A. Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Steele, T. Fernyhough, E. Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) Fienburgh, W. Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. Finch, H. J. Mason, Roy Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall) Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.) Mayhew, C. P. Stross, Dr. Barnett Follick, M. Mellish, R. J. Summers, G. S. Foot, M. M. Messer, Sir F. Swingler, S. T. Forman, J. C. Mikardo, Ian Sylvester, G. O. Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Mitchison, G. R Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) Freeman, John (Watford) Monslow, W. Taylor, John (West Lothian) Gibson, C W. Moody, A. S. Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth) Gooch, E G. Morgan, Dr. H. B. W. Thomas, George (Cardiff) Grey, C. F Morley, R. Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) Griffiths, William (Exchange) Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S) Thornton, E. Hall, Rt Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Mort, D. L. Timmons, J. Hall, John T (Gateshead, W.) Mulley, F. W. Tomney, F. Hamilton, W. W. Murray, J. D. Turner-Samuels, M Hannan, W Nally, W. Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn Hardy, E. A. Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Usborne, H. C. Hargreaves, A. Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J Viant, S. P. Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.) O'Brien, T. Wallace, H. W. Hastings, S. Oliver, G. H. Warbey, W. N. Hayman, F. H. Orbach, M. Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C) Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.) Oswald, T. Weitzman, D. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis) Padley, W. E. Wells, Percy (Faversham) Herbison, Miss M. Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Wells, William (Walsall) Hobson, C. R. Palmer, A. M. F. West, D. G. Holman, P. Pannell, Charles Wheeldon, W E. Holmes, Horace Pargiter, G. A. White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint) Houghton, Douglas Parker, J. White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.) Hoy, J. H. Parkin, B. T. Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) Peart, T. F. Wigg, George Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Plummer, Sir Leslie Wilkins, W. A. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Popplewell, E. Willey, F. T. Hynd, H. (Accrington) Porter, G. Williams, David (Neath) Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery) Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) Williams, Ronald (Wigan) Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Proctor, W. T. Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'ys) Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Pryde, D. J. Williams, W. R. (Droylsden) Janner, B Pursey, D. J. Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.) Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T Rankin, John Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) Jeger, George (Goole) Reeves, J. Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C) Jeger, Mrs. Lena Reid, Thomas (Swindon) Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside) Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) Reid, Williams (Camlachie) Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. Johnson, James (Rugby) Rhodes, H Wyatt, W. L. Johnston, Douglas (Paisley) Robens, Rt. Hon. A. Yates, V. F. Jones, David (Hartlepool) Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) TELLERS FOR THE AYES: Keenan, W. Mr. Arthur Allen NOES Alport, C. J. M. Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J. Bennett, William (Woodside) Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) Arbuthnot, John Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Brooman-White, R. C. Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) Birch, Nigel Browne, Jack (Govan) Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Bishop, F. P. Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T. Baldwin, A. E. Black, C. W. Bullard, D. G. Banks, Col. C. Boothby, Sir R. J. G Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. Barber, Anthony Bossom, Sir A. C. Burden, F. F. A. Barlow, Sir John Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden) Baxter, A. B. Boyle, Sir Edward Campbell, Sir David Beach, Maj. Hicks Braine, B. R. Cary, Sir Robert Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Braithwaite, Sir Gurney Channon, H. Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J. Pitman, I. J. Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.) Pitt, Miss E. M. Cole, Norman Hutchison, James (Scotstoun). Powell, J. Enoch Colegate, W. A. Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M. Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) Conant, Maj. R. J. E. Hylton-Foster, H. B. H. Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L. Cooper, San. Ldr. Albert Iremonger, T. L. Profumo, J. D. Cooper-Key, E. M. Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Raikes, Sir Victor Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Jennings, Sir Roland Ramsden, J. E. Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Redmayne, M. Crouch, R, F. Jones, A. (Hall Green) Rees-Davies, W. R. Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Kaberry, D. Remnant, Hon. P. Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood) Kerby, Capt. H. B. Renton, D. L. M. Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.) Kerr, H. W. Ridsdale, J. E. Davidson, Viscountess Lambert, Hon G. Roberts, Peter (Heeley) Deedes, W. F. Lambton, Viscount Robertson, Sir David Digby, S. Wingfield Lancaster, Col. C. G. Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.) Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. Langford-Holt, J. A Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) Donner, Sir P. W. Leather, E. H. C. Roper, Sir Harold Doughty, C. J. A. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Russell, R. S. Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Ryder, Capt. R. E. D. Drayson, G. B, Lindsay, Martin Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. Drewe, Sir C. Linstead, Sir H. N. Scott, R. Donald Dugdale, Rt. Hon. Sir T. (Richmond) Llewellyn, D. T. Scott-Miller, Comdr. R. Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) Shepherd, William Duthie, W. S. Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M. Longden, Gilbert Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington) Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) Low, A. R. W. Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood) Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth S) Snadden, W. McN. Erroll, F. J. Lucas, P. B. (Brentford) Spearman, A. C. M. Fell, A. Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. Speir, R. M. Finlay, Graeme McAdden, S. J Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.) Fisher, Nigel McCallum, Major D. Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S. Stevens, G. P. Fletcher-Cooke, C. Macdonald, Sir Peter Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.) Ford, Mrs. Patricia Mackie, J. H. (Galloway) Storey, S. Fort, R. Maclean, Fitzroy Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) Foster, John MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty) Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray) Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone) Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) Studholme, H. G. Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) Summers, G. S. Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok) Maitland, Patrick (Lanark) Sutcliffe, Sir Harold Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E. Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Garner-Evans, E. H. Markham, Major Sir Frank Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G Lloyd Marlowe, A. A. H. Teeling, W. Glover, D. Marples, A. E. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford) Godber, J B. Maude, Angus Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) Gomme-Duncan, Col. A Maudling, R. Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway) Gough, C F. H. Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C. Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) Gower H. R. Medlicott, Brig. F. Thompson, Lt.-Cdr R. (Croydon, W.) Graham, Sir Fergus. Mellor, Sir John Thorneycroft Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth) Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Molson, A. H. E. Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N. Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Moore, Sir Thomas Tilney, John Hall, John (Wycombe) Morrison, John (Salisbury) Touohe, Sir Gordon Harden, J. R. E. Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. Turner, H F. L. Hare, Hon, J. H. Nabarro, G. D. N. Turton, R. H. Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) Neave, Airey Tweedsmuir, Lady Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) Nicholls, Harmar Vane, W. M. F. Harvie-Watt, Sir George Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. Hay, John Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.) Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) Head, Rt. Hon. A. H. Nield, Basil (Chester) Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Maryleboney Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P. Walker-Smith, D. C. Heath, Edward Nugent, G. R. H. Wall, P. H. B. Higgs, J. M. C. Nutting, Anthony Ward, Hon. George (Worcester) Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Oakshott, H. D. Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. Hinchingbroeke, Viscount O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) Watkinson, H. A. Hirst, Geoffrey Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster) Holland-Martin, C. J. Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) Wellwood, W. Hollis, M. C. Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare) Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay) Holt, A. F. Osborne, C. Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.) Hope, Lord John Page, R. G. Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter) Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry Peake, Rt. Hon. O. Wills, G. Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Perkins, Sir Robert Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) Horobin, I. M. Peto, Brig. C. H. M Wood, Hon. R. Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence Peyton, J. W. W. Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) Pickthorn, K. W. M. TELLERS FOR THE NOES: Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) Pilkington, Capt. R. A. Mr. Vosper and Mr. Robert Allan. Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)
Amendment made: In page 16, line 35, at end, insert "of repair."—[ Mr. H. Macmillan. ]s
I beg to move, in page 16, line 37, at the end, to insert:
"and
( c ) if the landlord did not become landlord by purchasing the dwelling-house or any interest therein after the thirteenth day of June, nineteen hundred and forty-five."
This is another of those occasions when we are trying to probe the right hon. Gentleman's mind to find out what are his intentions. He promised to give careful consideration to a point which received a good deal of support from both sides of the Committee. The right hon. Gentleman has had a pretty bad time of it since we began on the Bill in January. He has continually had to wrestle with his soul. He has had to deal with the most exquisitely, delicately poised questions as between the rights of the landlord and those of the tenant, and he has considered them most carefully. He has obviously sternly disciplined himself. He has got himself into an admirable frame of mind suitable for Lent, and in every case—
I do not know whether the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) is reading a newspaper for the purposes of the debate.
He has been doing it deliberately.
I thought it was in order to prepare a quotation in view of a subsequent speech. The quotation I had in mind was about
"How your rents will go up. See page 6 of the 'Tribune' this week."
I prefaced my remarks by saying I did not know whether the hon. Member was using it for the purposes of debate.
In every case when the right hon. Gentleman has wrestled with the difficulties, he has come down on the side of the landlord. This is a rather more difficult case, because in this instance the Minister has the hon. Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Horobin) watching him carefully. The hon. Member showed an astonishing display of emotion in Committee in supporting the mischief to which we were drawing attention.
The purpose of the Amendment is, broadly, to cut out of the scope of the Bill those people who have purchased their property subsequent to the war. People who, like our well known friend the widow, have inherited the property and have relied on it to bring in income and have found conditions getting worse and worse, and who finally have found it impossible to keep the property in repair and at the same time to get a living out of it, would come within the provisions of the Bill and be able to raise the rent. People who inherit the property, as in the case of our well known friend the spinster daughter, who figures largely in the saga of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), and who inherits from her old father, whom she has looked after so faithfully, would be able to raise her rent.
The people we are anxious to exclude are the speculators and the professionals, who buy property well knowing that it is because of the Rent Acts that they get it cheaply and who are specialists in the art of evading their legal responsibilities under the Rent Restrictions Acts. These people know every trick of the game. Many cases could be mentioned by name, but I do not want to add fuel to flames. There are many people well known to the House who have become specialists at evading the law and for whom the Bill is likely to be a very happy hunting ground.
There are also people—not quite of the same type, not the obvious spivs, but the professional investors—who have made a shrewd appraisal of the chances of there being some such Measure as this and who have bought cheap property from people who sold it cheaply because of the existence of the Rent Acts. They have bought because they were fairly sure that there would be a repeal in the Rent Acts. In other words, they were buying at Conservative Party long odds.
9.15 p.m.
To illustrate the class of case I have in mind, I should like to quote from the Financial and Commercial Review of "The Times," which is a fairly responsible authority, of October, 1952. It discusses the investment prospects of rent restricted houses generally. I wish I could read the whole of it, but the Guillotine prevents me. After having examined the various possibilities, this is what the final paragraph says:
These optimistically logical people—I do not think it required much optimism, but it was logic in October, 1952, because there was a Conservative Government in power and it was likely to look after its friends—thought that it was a reasonably good investment or speculation to buy rent-restricted property on the cheap, and take out of the rents the interest on the capital because they bought it at giveaway prices. They had gambled on there being such a Bill as this, and it is against that type of person that my Amendment is directed.
I recognise that in the form in which it is it is open to a certain amount of danger and difficulty. Indeed, I find myself in the unusual position of being attacked for Left-Wing deviation by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), who suggested that perhaps I was going impetuously too far. But he agreed with me that the sting of the Amendment was there, and that we wanted some form of words to prevent a revulsion of feeling among tenants against people who had cynically gone into rent-restricted property as an investment in order to reap dividends out of such a scheme as this.
It was generally felt that these people should not be protected by any Bill brought into this House. It was agreed that such a Bill as this should cover people who already owned such property for some time and who had borne the heat and burden of the day to keep the property in repair. Then people to whom property had been handed down as a kind of pension should also be covered, but people who simply purchased property with the object of getting a return through doing repairs should get no further assistance from an Act of this House. That was the purpose of the form of words which I moved in Committee upstairs.
The hon. Member for Oldham, East showed an astonishing sympathy with this point of view. He made it quite clear that he himself had the same feeling, and if the hon. Gentleman had the same feeling there must be something in it. He had the feeling that there was hatred deeply embedded in the tenants against the type of crook-landlord, and he said that if anybody got the impression that this was a crook-landlord's charter, then the chances of the Bill working smoothly and well were absolutely vitiated, and he suggested that his right hon. Friend himself should do something to meet the point.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Oldham, East said: bona fide attempt to deal with a real social problem, he is playing cynically into the hands of speculators who will reap a rich harvest.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I hope the Minister will not get unduly uneasy. The right hon. Gentleman is getting a little touchy about being told what so many hundreds of thousands of people in this country have to repeat day by day before they can get the Conservative Government to move in any direction. It has to be repeated because the Minister takes no notice of the needs of the people, and the needs of the people have to be brought to his notice as often as possible. I want to bring to his notice once against the fact that, by this Amendment, we are trying to reduce the ill-effects of the Bill he has brought before this House.
It is nothing new, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, as you know, that certain of the provisions in the Rent Acts should be related to those houses which were purchased before a certain date. The House will remember that when the question of hardship was being dealt with, where a person bought a house in order to occupy it for himself, and if he wanted to use the argument that there was greater hardship upon him than upon the tenant in order to acquire possession, the Acts provided that it was only in cases of houses which had been purchased prior to a certain date that this was possible.
The position is that this is not a new idea which is being introduced; on the contrary, it is something which has been carefully considered in previous Acts and is highly desirable in this one. It is desirable for the reason that there are few people in this country today who do not realise that there are unscrupulous persons who have taken advantage of the position by purchasing houses, not even using their own names, trading under names which are entirely unknown to their tenants, even having registered offices outside this country in order to cover their tracks.
That kind of person has purchased for speculative purposes. He is not prepared to comply with the conditions which the laws says have to be complied with. He is consequently utilising the opportunity to purchase for speculative purposes in such a way as to make it practically impossible for many hundreds of thousands of tenants to lead a reasonable life and to be protected in their tenancies.
That is an extremely serious matter, and indeed the hon. Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Horobin) acknowledged it in the speech he made in Committee. Something must be introduced into the Bill to cope with a situation of that description. The recent purchases by that type of person are purchases obviously made with a view to gain, not only by virtue of the position as it existed before, but in expectation of a Bill of this kind being introduced.
If the Amendment is accepted, there will be no hardship upon the reasonable person who intended to do the right thing, because when he bought after 1945 he was aware of the conditions that prevailed. He knew exactly what he was buying, he knew that the Rent Acts were in force, he knew that he could not have any increase in the rent in respect of the property which he was purchasing, except for the purposes that are outlined in the Acts themselves. Therefore, he has lost nothing and he was in a position to assess reasonably what the return from the property would be. He, therefore, will not be affected by the adoption of this Amendment.
Those who will be affected by an Amendment of this kind are the men or the bodies to whom I have already referred, and I cannot see why that type of person or body should be protected in any sense. In those circumstances, I think that the Minister ought to do what he said he was going to do. He should consider this point and, having considered it in a reasonable mood, come to the conclusion that it should be met.
The hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl) spent a great deal of his time in speaking about what landlords would not do with the increase of rents, but the intention of the Amendment is to prevent any landlord purchasing property since the war from securing an increase of rent. Therefore, the hon. Member is really prejudging the issue. If it became law, the Amendment would defeat the whole purpose of the Bill. It would defeat our purpose in trying to get these houses repaired, because it would make sure that any premises which had changed hands since the war would not attract the increase in rent provided under the Bill.
9.30 p.m.
Does the hon. Member for Widnes think that every kind of house that has changed hands since the war has changed hands only because someone has speculated about it? Hon. Members will bear in mind what the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) said some years ago, before his party left office. He said then: "If people think I am going to produce an amending rent Bill with the small majority such as we have now, they had better think again." Landlords had no chance of seeing in the foreseeable distance any increase in rents. If anyone felt in the six years the Opposition were in power that there was any chance of landlords getting a larger return on their investments, they must have been having fairy dreams. It is only since this party has been in power that it has become quite evident that somebody was going to do something about the houses. Even then it was only when this Bill was brought forward that there was any real indication or possibility of increases in rents. And this Bill was described by the right hon. Member opposite as a "mouldy old turnip" for landlords. They certainly will not make their fortunes out of this Bill.
Does the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl) visualise under his Amendment a road in which two or three houses which have not changed hands will attract increases of rents, and the other houses which, by accident or some perfectly proper reason, have changed hands and will not attract any increase? Does he want to perpetuate an anomaly of that kind by having the same houses in the same road having quite different rents merely because they come inside or outside the Amendment?
I am aware that my right hon. Friend sympathises, as do we all, with those who wish to prevent the bad landlord from getting an advantage, but it must be remembered that, with the vast change of ownership since the war, we would prevent by this Amendment a great number of houses being repaired in a proper and legitimate manner. For those reasons, I hope that my right hon. Friend will not agree to this Amendment.
This Amendment was discussed in Committee, and I then gave an undertaking, in the light of the discussion and in response to hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, that I would try to see whether its purpose could be met without any ill effects. The Amendment has now been put down again in exactly the same form, and I think the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl) did not really believe that in its present form it would be right for the House to add it to the Bill. The hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Janner) seemed more satisfied with its form, but I think the House generally must agree, as indeed the Committee did, that in those words it would range so far as to go far beyond the purpose of trying to deal with somebody who, however carefully we try to draw our laws, might be able to find some way through them.
I have looked at this matter again, as I undertook to do. I am bound to say that I cannot find any method of fixing, by legislation, a date which would not rule out all the normal transactions in property market. As the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) observed, if I were to accept anything like the date suggested, we should rule out great bodies like the National Coal Board and the Railway Executive, which have acquired these properties by purchase.
Let us look at the rural areas. One can say today that a very high proportion of all agricultural property is sold in the market on the death of the owner because of the effect of death duties. What we want is to ensure that the new purchaser shall do exactly what the Bill wants him to do—begin to spend money upon repairs—and that he should be encouraged to do so by the modest increase in the rent allowed for that purpose.
If we were to introduce a date and fix it for a period of years, it would really mean that, as the years passed, and ownership of property passed in the normal way, we should withdraw more and more of it from the ambit of the Bill. If one does not like the Bill, that might be quite a good way of frustrating it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear.] If this is a wrecking Amendment, I shall treat it as such, but that is not the spirit in which we discussed this matter in Committee.
We tried to see if there was a method by which we could prevent somebody benefiting who felt, in spite of the conditions imposed of good repair and the definition in Clause 8, and in spite of having to pay the amount justifying the repairs increase, that somehow or other he could squeeze a little extra by doing the absolute minimum, or somehow evading the law. If that was the purpose of the Amendment, I wonder why the date of 1945 should have been chosen. I should have thought that 1939 might have been a better date, because the kind of person likely to do the sort of thing that we all want to avoid was the person who remained firmly in his own country when the country was at war. The "spiv" who wished to operate would have done so during war-time. Why penalise the man who bought after 1945? I do not know.
We have tried to find, but I do not think it is possible to do so, any form of words which would, by legislation, effect what we want to see effected. Therefore, I must admit, as the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale rather indicated, that it really is not possible to make this Amendment deal with the cases, if there are such cases, that we had in mind.
When I referred to our administrative armoury, I had in mind that we have given very large powers of compulsory purchase in recent years to all sorts of authorities. We have tremendously extended that power. I certainly, and I expect my successors would take the same view, would take a favourable view, or regard it as something which would weigh in considering a compulsory purchase order, if I felt that confirming the order would bring into public or local authority hands property which had, by purchase, got into this form of undesirable ownership. That is something which would weigh with one when one was considering whether it was right to confirm an order or not.
If there were other administrative means we might also use them. One has to try to weigh whether the person being dispossessed of his property should be left with it, or whether a compulsory purchase order should be granted. If we had reason to believe that he had not any real intention of performing his proper duties but had come into possession of the property in order to use it in this rather disreputable way, that would weigh with one. It might be a useful administrative weapon for the purpose of meeting evils which we all feel might creep in, to what degree I cannot tell, and which we discussed together in Committee.
Beyond that I cannot go, and I believe that if hon. Members consider carefully the full implications of what the Amendment would really mean they will see that it would amount to a wrecking Amendment in relation to the whole purposes of the Bill.
I confess to being rather disappointed with the Minister's reply. It is common ground that if persons deliberately purchased rent-controlled houses at any time—the application of a date year is purely arbitrary—then they did so with their eyes open, unless they had to do so for extraneous reasons.
It is quite true that in Committee I pointed out that a large number of public corporations had become possessed of houses as a consequence of statutes passed by this House. In that case, they could be specifically mentioned as being exempted from the provisions of the Bill. But where a private person or a company bought these houses knowing their condition and knowing the rents that were being paid for them, then they did so as a business speculation. They did so because they felt that the balance-sheets justified the investment, or in expectation of a Bill of this sort which would make their investment more profitable.
What my hon. Friends desire is that the latter categories should be ruled out from benefit under the Bill because, by inference, they are able to keep their property in good repair without the increase, because that was the basis of the investment. That is the argument advanced by my hon. Friends, and I should have thought it would receive generous support.
It is, of course, perfectly correct that the actual language of the Amendment may not be the most effective vehicle for conveying it to the statute, but that is the normal method of this House. If the House wants a certain principle adopted, it is for the Minister, with the resources at his disposal, to find appropriate language, and it is not enough to say that this language is not good enough.
It it also unnecessary to say that this would create a number of anomalies in the same street, because this Bill is going to create a vast number of anomalies in the same street. A very large number of anomalies was created between the wars through allowing a number of houses to pass out of control. There is an infinite variety of rents at the moment, and the Minister knows that certain properties which were decontrolled between the wars and the recontrolled in 1939 will not qualify for the increase because their rents will be far higher than the stopper itself. That is why the "Economist" and certain other papers have suggested that it is the older properties which are going to be more profitable.
Therefore, from our experience, the assumption is that the houses that would have the stopper applied to them as the higher rented houses will, because of decontrol, probably be neglected, while frivolous repairs may be done to the older properties in order to enable them to qualify for increased rents. That is the reason why I have said, although I have been jibed at on frequent occasions for saying so, that this is a mixed thing, that some of the properties most requiring repairs will not get them, while frivolous repairs will be made to the older properties so that they may qualify for the increase. So it is a mouldy turnip with some parts of it quite luscious.
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman on the point he has made, but I think that, in turn, he will agree with me when I say that the effect of this Amendment would be to make it possible for two houses side by side, and which were otherwise the same in every particular under the Bill, to be treated differently. One would be able to attract a new rent, and the other would not.
9.45 p.m.
I have already pointed out that that is the situation which exists at the moment, and when the new Clause which the right hon. Gentleman moved last night has been properly carried out and conversions have taken place, the new conversions will be decontrolled and the old conversions will be controlled. Therefore, it will be possible to have two working-class fiats next to each other in the same street, one being new and having a rent two or three times the size of the one which was converted before the passing of the Bill. If it is the author of anomalies that the hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Cole) wants to hunt down, his quarry is the right hon. Gentleman. If the hon. Gentleman can catch him, he will be able to prevent quite a large number of anomalies.
The right hon. Gentleman, knowing that there was a case of considerable substance, wanted to make a concession, and I was anxious to listen to him in the hope that it would be of a kind that we could accept. But what was the concession? My hon. Friends were at first inclined to look upon it as something that we could accept, but what does it mean? The right hon. Gentleman says that the local authorities have very considerable powers of compulsory purchase.
The powers of compulsory purchase are used by local authorities for a variety of reasons, mostly dealing with the provision of additional accommodation or with town planning—proper planning—of, of course, with demolitions and slum clearance. Now, apparently, if a local authority is able to show that a certain number of houses have been purchased by people since the war, then those houses would, in the view of the Minister, rank for compulsory purchase because they were bought since the war—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] But this is the whole point—
The right hon. Gentleman must not misrepresent me, as he knows he is doing, and is doing purposely. The right hon. Gentleman said that I referred to properties purchased—
On a point of order. I thought that such imputations were out of order.
The right hon. Gentleman said that I said that this would apply to properties purchased since the war. I said "properties purchased by undesirable spivs since the war."
I am trying to understand what the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting. Apparently, we have now to consider a new classification for compulsory purchase, and that is "Houses which are purchased by undesirable spivs." I have been Minister for much longer than the right hon. Gentleman, and I know that any Minister, when he considers approval of compulsory purchase orders, acts in a quasi-judicial capacity. Inquiries have been held beforehand. An official has presided over the inquiries usually, and a number of citizens have received considerable incomes in defending the one side or the other against the proposed compulsory purchase order. But now, apparently, we are to understand that an application could be made by a local authority for compulsory purchase of certain properties on the ground that they had been purchased by undesirable spivs.
The right hon. Gentleman is very ingenious in his misrepresentation, and he enjoys it thoroughly, but he cannot get away with it, although he wriggles like an eel. What I said will be in HANSARD tomorrow. His hon. Friends, who are more generous than he is, understand what I said. I said that in considering a compulsory purchase order, the character of the landlord and the wholly unsatisfactory way in which he is carrying out his duties would weigh with myself and my successors in coming to a decision, and that is quite a different thing from what the right hon. Gentleman said.
I am well within the recollection of hon. Members on both sides of the House when I say that the right hon. Gentleman said that it would weigh with him in considering whether a compulsory purchase order should be approved if the house had been purchased by an undesirable spiv. That is exactly what the right hon. Gentleman said. If he now thinks that he slipped in what he said, the House is always generous, and we should be perfectly ready to listen if he now says, "I have made a mistake, I ought not to save said that." But in rebuking me the Minister has made it worse. He has now said that what would weigh with him and his successors, in deciding whether to approve a compulsory purchase order, is the character of the person owning the property. I am bound to say that this is the most astonishing thing I have ever heard in my life.
Let us have a look at that. It is perfectly true that my hon. Friends are more generous than I am, but I am afraid that my hon. Friends are also more credulous than I am. Having had some knowledge and experience of these matters, I had to consider the validity of what the Minister was saying. In an attempt to get out of his difficulty the Minister has decided to apply a perfectly subjective test, a moral test, an ethical test, to the individual whose property is sought to be purchased by a local authority.
Let us see how it is to be applied. There will be the ordinary facts which every officer who presides over a committee must report to the Minister and say, "These are the circumstances." Then there will be a "Second Schedule," which sets out the character of the individual whose property is about to be purchased—is he a good man, or is he a bad man?
Let us see what are the tests to be applied. For example, was he divorced? If the only test—
Ought he to be divorced?
Yes, ought he to be divorced? If the only test to be applied in determining whether or not he has a bad character is whether he bought the house, or was a partner in the company that bought an interest in the house, our Amendment satisfies that test. That is all we say. But, if the Minister suggests a test beyond that, we should like to have a description of the kind of test he would apply. What is a good character for the purpose of a compulsory purchase order? We should like to know these things, because this is a most interesting suggestion.
The Minister is now to become an arbiter of morals in deciding what property a local authority shall be justified in buying. If of course the property fell into the possession of a new proprietor—as it would do in the case of the Coal Board, or the Transport Commission, or the Electricity Authority or the Gas Board—he would have succeeded to the property. We are not referring to anyone who succeeds to property. We are referring to the purchase of property.
On the other hand, I should say, of course, that if the new proprietor fell into the property his succession could not be regarded as proving that he had a tainted character. He had it because he could not help it; he just inherited the property. But if the individual wishing to purchase sought out the property in order to buy it, then we should have to search for what sinister purpose he may have had in view in buying the property. He may be a bad fellow because of the intention he had in mind in buying it. The result is that the Minister would have to have a corps of psychiatrists in order to determine the intention of the purchaser. I must say that never in the whole of my experience have I known a Minister say anything like that, but I know and I appreciate that the Minister is jaded and tired, and that he slipped into an indiscretion in making his statement.
It would be much better for him and for his reputation if he now got up and said, "I do not propose in the future to make any decision as to a compulsory purchase order on the grounds of the ethical character of the individual against whom the purchase order is to be made." It would be much better if he said that, and, in view of the fact that he has not been able to meet the substantial point which has been made, we are bound to divide the House on this Amendment.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 253; Noes, 266.
Division No. 69.] AYES [9.56 p.m. Acland, Sir Richard Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Adams, Richard Edelman, M. King, Dr. H. M. Albu, A. H. Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) Lee, Frederick (Newton) Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Awbery, S. S. Fernyhough, E. Lewis, Arthur Bacon, Miss Alice Fienburgh, W. Lindgren, G. S. Baird, J. Finch, H. J. Lipton, Lt.-Col. M Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.) Logan, D. G. Bartley, P. Follick, M. MacColl, J. E. Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J Foot, M. M. McGhee, H. G Bence, C. R. Forman, J. C. McGovern, J. Benn, Hon. Wedgwood Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Mclnnes, J. Benson, G. Freeman, John (Watford) McKay, John (Wallsend) Beswick, F. Gibson, C. W. McLeavy, F. Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) Gooch, E. G. MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Bing, G. H. C. Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) McNeil, Rt. Hon. H. Blackburn, F. Grey, C. F. MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Blenkinsop, A. Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Mainwaring, W. H. Blyton, W. R. Griffiths, William (Exchange) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Boardman, H. Hall. Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A G Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.) Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A Bowden, H. W. Hamilton, W. W Mason, Roy Bowles, F. G. Hannan, W. Mayhew, C. P Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Hardy, E. A. Mellish, R. J Brockway, A. F. Hargreaves, A. Messer, Sir F. Brook, Dryden (Halifax) Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E. Mikardo, Ian Broughton, Dr. A. D. D Hastings, S. Mitchison, G. R Brown, Thomas (Ince) Hayman, F. H. Monslow, W. Burton, Miss F. E. Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.) Moody, A. S. Callaghan, L. J. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis) Morgan, Dr. H. B. W. Carmichael, J. Herbison, Miss M. Morley, R. Castle, Mrs. B. A Hobson, C. R. Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Champion, A. J. Holman, P. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.) Chapman, W. D. Holmes, Horace Mort, D. L. Chetwynd, G. R Houghton, Douglas Moyle, A. Clunie, J. Hoy, J. H. Mulley, F. W. Coldrick, W. Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) Murray, J. D. Collick, P. H. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Nally, W. Corbet, Mrs. Freda Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Cove, W. G. Hynd, H. (Accrington) Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J Craddock, George (Bradford, SO Hynd, J. B. (Atterclifle) O'Brien, T. Crosland, C. A. R. Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Oliver, G. H Grossman, R. H. S Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Orbach, M. Cullen, Mrs. A. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Oswald, T. Daines, P. Janner, B. Padley, W. E. Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Darling, George (Hillsborough) Jeger, George (Goole) Palmer, A. M. F Davies Ernest (Enfield, E.) Jeger, Mrs. Lena Pannell, Charles Davies, Harold (Leek) Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) Pargiter, G. A. de Freitas, Geoffrey Johnson, James (Rugby) Parker, J. Deer, G. Jones, David (Hartlepool) Parkin, B. T. Delargy, H. J. Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.) Peart, T. F. Dodds, N. N. Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Plummer, Sir Leslie Donnelly, D. L. Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Popplewell, E. Driberg, T. E. N. Keenan, W. Porter, G. Dugdare, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich) Kenyon, C Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) Snow, J. W. Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.) Proctor, W. T. Sorensen, R. W. Weitzman, D. Pryde, D. J. Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank Wells, Percy (Faversham) Pursey, Cmdr. H. Sparks, J. A. Wells, William (Walsall) Rankin, John Steele, T. West, D. G. Reeves, J. Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) Wheeldon, W. E. Reid, Thomas (Swindon) Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint) Reid, William (Camlachie) Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall) White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.) Rhodes, H. Stross, Dr. Barnett Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. Robens, Rt. Hon. A. Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. Wigg, George Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Swingler, S. T. Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) Sylvester, G. O. Wilkins, W. A. Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) Willey, F. T. Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) Taylor, John (West Lothian) Williams, David (Neath) Ross, William Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth) Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery) Royle, C. Thomas, George (Cardiff) Williams, Ronald (Wigan) Shackleton, E. A. A. Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.) Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'H'y) Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) Williams, W. R. (Droylsden) Short, E. W. Thornton, E. Williams W. T. (Hammersmith, S.) Shurmer, P. L. E. Timmons, J. Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) Silverman, Julius (Erdington) Tomney, F. Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) Turner-Samuels, M. Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside) Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. Skeffington, A. M. Usborne, H. C. Wyatt, W. L. Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield) Viant, S. P. Yates, V. F. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) Wallace, H. W. Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.) Warbey, W. N. TELLERS FOR THE AYES: Mr. Pearson and Mr. Arthur Allen.
NOES Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) Digby, S. Wingfield Hollis, M. C. Alport, C. J. M. Dodds-Parker, A. D. Holt, A. F. Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. Hope, Lord John Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J. Donner, Sir P. W. Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry Arbuthnot, John Doughty, C. J. A. Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm Horobin, I. M. Baldwin, A. E. Drayson, G. B. Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence Banks, Col. C. Dugdale, Rt. Hon. Sir T. (Richmond) Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) Barber, Anthony Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) Barlow, Sir John Duthie, W. S. Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Baxter, A. B. Eccles, R. Hon. Sir D. M. Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J. Beach, Maj. Hicks Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.) Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Hutchison, James (Scotstoun) Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Erroll, F. J. Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M. Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.) Fell, A. Hylton-Foster, H. B. H. Bennett, William (Woodside) Finlay, Graeme Iremonger, T. L. Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Fisher, Nigel Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Birch, Nigel Fleetwood-Hesketh, R F Jennings, Sir Roland Bishop, F. P. Fletcher-Cooke, C. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Black, C. W. Ford, Mrs. Patricia Jones, A. (Hall Green) Boothby, Sir R. J. G Fort, R. Kaberry, D, Bossom, Sir A. C. Foster, John Kerby, Capt. H. B. Bowen, E. R. Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone) Kerr, H. W. Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) Lambert, Hon. G. Boyle, Sir Edward Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok) Lambton, Viscount Braine, B. R. Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Lancaster, Col. C. G Braithwaite, Sir Gurney Garner-Evans, E. H. Langford-Holt, J. A. Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H, George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd Leather, E. H. C. Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) Glover, D. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Brooman-White, R. C. Godber, J. B. Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Browne, Jack (Govan) Gomme-Duncan, Col. A Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T. Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T Gough, C. F. H. Lindsay, Martin Bullard, D. G. Gower, H. R. Linstead, Sir H. N. Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. Graham, Sir Fergus Llewellyn, D. T. Burden, F. F. A. Grimond, J. Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E) Butcher, Sir Herbert Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden) Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Longden, Gilbert Campbell, Sir David Hall, John (Wycombe) Low, A. R. W. Cary, Sir Robert Harden, J. R. E. Lucas, p. B. (Brentford) Channon, H. Hare, Hon. J. H. Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) McAdden, S. J. Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) McCallum, Major D. Cole, Norman Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S. Colegate, W. A. Harvie-Watt, Sir George Macdonald, Sir Peter Conant, Maj. R. J. E. Hay, John Mackie, J. H. (Galloway) Cooper-Key, E. M. Head, Rt. Hon. A. H. Maclean, Fitzroy Corbet, Mrs. Freda Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W.) Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Heath, Edward MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty) Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C Higgs, J. M. C. Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) Crouch, R. F. Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E. Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.) Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Markham, Major Sir Frank Davidson, Viscountess Hirst, Geoffrey Marlowe, A. A. H Deedes, W. F. Holland-Martin, C. J Marples, A. E. Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin) Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L Teeling, W. Maude, Angus Profumo, J. D. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford) Maudling, R. Raikes, Sir Victor Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S L. C Ramsden, J. E. Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway) Medlicott, Brig. F. Redmayne, M. Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) Mellor, Sir John Remnant, Hon. P. Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.) Molson, A. H. E. Renton, D. L. M. Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth) Moore, Sir Thomas Ridsdale, J. E. Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N. Morrison, John (Salisbury) Roberts, Peter (Heeley) Tilney, John Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. Robertson, Sir David Touche, Sir Gordon Nabarro, G. D. N. Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.) Turner, H. F. L Neave, Airey Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) Turton, R. H. Nicholls, Harmar Roper, Sir Harold Tweedsmuir, Lady Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) Russell, R. S. Vane, W. M. F. Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.) Ryder, Capt. R. E. D Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. Nield, Basil (Chester) Schofield, Lt.-Col. W Vesper, D. F. Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P Scott, R. Donald Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) Nugent, G. R. H. Scott-Miller, Comdr. R Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone) Nutting, Anthony Shepherd, William Walker-Smith, D. C. Oakshott, H. D Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) Wall, P. H. B. O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington) Ward, Hon. George (Worcester) Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood) Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth) Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) Snadden, W. McN. Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare) Spearman, A. C. M. Watkinson, H. A. Osborne, C. Speir, R. M. Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster) Page, R. G. Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.) Wellwood, W. Peake, Rt. Hon. O. Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay) Perkins, Sir Robert Stevens, G. P. Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.) Peto, Brig. C. H. M Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, w.) Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter) Peyton, J. W. W. Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. Wills, G. Pickthorn, K. W. M. Storey, S. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) Pilkington, Capt. R. A Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) Wood, Hon. R. Pitman, I. J. Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray) Pitt, Miss E. M. Summers, G. S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES: Powell, J. Enoch Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Sir Cedric Drewe and Mr. Studholme.
Clause 22.—(RENT NOT TO BE INCREASED ABOVE TWICE GROSS VALUE.)
I beg to move, in page 18, line 25, to leave out from "the." to "to," in line 27, and to insert "county court."
The Clause provides an upper limit above which rents may not rise, and it is necessary to define what is true rent and what is not true rent. Certain payments the tenant is making to the landlord are to be excluded by the Clause from counting as rent for the purpose of the ceiling. The question the Amendment seeks to solve is what authority shall decide any question arising as to what falls in or out of the definition of rent. The Bill says such a question has to be decided by the rent tribunal. The suggestion in the Amendment is that it should be decided by the county court. Those of us who sit on this side of the House, all other matters being equal—
On a point of order. Are we to be allowed to hear what the hon. Member says? Either the House is at work or it is not.
I hope hon. Members will quieten their conversation a little.
Those of us who sit on this side of the House, all other things being equal, prefer an issue that has to be tried by a court of law rather than by any other body. There may be reasons at times why matters should be referred to other bodies. There are some questions that should be referred to arbitration, some technical questions that should be referred to a referee, but all other things being equal we prefer a court of law. Subsection (3, b ) deals with how to find out how much of a lump sum is intended by the parties to cover services of one sort and another.
And furniture as well.
Yes, and furniture. Where there is an agreement between the parties providing, for instance, that of the total payment of £3 a week £2 is for the house and 10s. is for the furniture and 10s. for the radiator and heating, and so on, there is no problem at all. However, where there is not a specific agreement in writing between the parties, the question of these amounts has to be decided. I should like to see a case where these things are agreed. In almost every case I have come across they are not. The question to be decided is not just one of arithmetic. It may be necessary to refer to a thick pile of correspondence about, say, the installation of central heating. Some of the negotiations may not have been in correspondence but oral. In some cases we have to go into the history and assess what the parties intended, how much of the payment was intended to be for rent and how much to be for services.
When we have to construe a series of negotiations of that sort, and look into people's minds, when the intentions are not written on paper, it is a difficult matter. We feel that at any rate the House might well consider whether such a question should be decided by a county court judge who is experienced at looking into matters of this sort or whether it should go to the rent tribunal.
If it is merely an arbitration upon an obvious question of contract, where the evidence is clear, surely the court might be described as the best tribunal; but where we are talking about reasonable assumptions, having regard to the conduct of parties and interpreting their intentions, I feel that a lay tribunal is very much the best court.
There may be a difference between us, but this much is clear from the Clause: where it is in writing, no court or tribunal is to be invoked. That is dealt with by the first two lines of the subsection. It is only where people have to examine documents and witnesses that we suggest that a county court judge may be the proper person.
On the whole—there are exceptions on both sides—there is a distinction between the tribunal and the county court: the tribunals deal, by and large, with property which is not protected by the Rent Acts, for they were set up in the first place to deal with furnished lettings and they operate in that field. On the other hand, when a case is to be fought about protected property, it is fought in the county court. As that seems to be a convenient and useful division and one which people have come to accept, we think it proper that the House should have the opportunity of considering whether the county court ought not to be inserted in the Bill.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I want to add a short reason to those given by my hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Higgs) as to why the Amendment should be made. It might be said that because it is a lay tribunal and has had experience of deciding questions of furniture, the rent tribunal is the best forum at which matters of this kind can be decided, but the county court already has copious experience in deciding what value is to be placed on furniture.
The House will remember that in a case where a large proportion of the rent represents a payment for furniture or services, the matter is outside the Rent Acts, and very frequently cases come before the county court in which the court has to decide whether a place is a furnished or an unfurnished letting. County court judges have to judge the very question which is raised in the subsection. For that reason—apart from various other reasons, such as the necessity to have a trained judicially-balanced mind weighing up these issues—we hope that the Minister will accept the Amendment.
All the way through the Bill we have had a number of discussions about whether the right tribunal for a particular purpose was the court or the rent tribunal. I am bound to say that it is not always easy to decide in every case which was the tribunal we should use. In some cases I have had to resist Amendments from hon. Members opposite who wished to use the rent tribunal where I thought the county court was more suitable.
On this occasion, I think that on the whole it would be wiser in these cases to keep to the Bill as drawn and to maintain the rent tribunal. These are the oases where, if the landlord and tenant are unable to agree what part of the rent represents a payment for furniture or services for the purpose of arriving at the amount of the "stopper," the Amendment proposes the use of the county court and I ask the House to keep to the tribunal.
10.15 p.m.
I think that the rent tribunal has more experience in determining matters as to the value of furniture or services provided under a letting. It often has to deal with these matters, and a good deal of experience has been accumulated in the process. I admit that these matters are evenly balanced, but on the whole it would be better to leave the decision to the rent tribunal.
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for what he has said. He has not entirely convinced me, however, but I do not feel strongly enough to divide the House. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 23.—(NOTICE AND DECLARATIONS PRELIMINARY TO RECOVERY OF REPAIRS INCREASE.)
I beg to move, in page 19, line 6, to leave out "four," and to insert "six."
The Amendment was tabled in consequence of a promise I gave in Standing Committee to consider whether the period of four weeks—the period after which the notice of increase takes effect—was sufficient. My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Horobin) raised the point in an Amendment which suggested an increase in the period of to eight weeks. It is difficult to say exactly what is right, but after consideration I think that six weeks is a bit fairer than four. I hope that the House will accept the period of six weeks as a reasonable compromise.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 19, line 12, at the end to insert:
This type of provision has proved of considerable use in deterring quite a number of people from giving wrong information. It has been a sufficient deterrent not to have been called upon very frequently for use. When a landlord has been brought before the courts under this type of provision, he has as a rule been guilty of gross misrepresentation in having wilfully misled the tenant in respect of the matter with which he was charged.
It could be said that there are provisions by which a person giving a false declaration could be brought before the courts in respect of an offence of perjury. What we are proposing here is a much simpler matter, and it will be clearly obvious to the landlord who is giving the notice. After all, the notice is a matter on which he will demand the increase of rent. The particulars in that notice will entitled him to obtain his increase without any more ado, and consequently there must be an effective deterrent.
I beg to second the Amendment.
This Amendment and that in the name of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Turner-Samuels), in page 19, line 12, at the end to insert:
These two Amendments raise the point of what shall be the penalty for a wrong declaration. It is quite true that anybody who makes a declaration which is false is liable under the Perjury Act, but I quite admit that that is rather a heavy weapon of indictment and is used not very readily except in very serious cases. If everybody who committed perjury in the witness box was prosecuted, it would be difficult for the legal profession to carry on their operations, because the whole thing might come to an end. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I do not mean the legal profession, but the law itself.
I have been thinking what we could do. We do not want false declarations, and we want them to be taken seriously. Some provision of this kind ought to be in the Bill, and we will try to put it into the Bill. The hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Janner) said there was a precedent in the 1920 Act. That was not quite the same thing, because that was a fairly simple matter of what was the rent percentage and the rent increase, whereas the declaration under this Bill will be more complicated in character. It is not as simple as a percentage increase of 40 per cent. or 20 per cent.
I would say that the form of declaration might be that which is used in connection with Income Tax. We will try in the stages remaining to us in another place to insert the form of words to carry out the intention to allow for summary prosecution in these matters in the event of a default.
In view of the undertaking given by the Minister, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 24.—(DETERMINATION WHETHER CONDITIONS FULFILLED TO JUSTIFY INCREASE OF RENT.)
I beg to move, in page 20, line 6, at end, to insert:
(4) Where on an application under the last foregoing subsection the local authority have refused to revoke a certificate, then if in proceedings for the recovery of any sum by way of repairs increase the landlord satisfies the court that at the time of the application both the conditions justifying an increase of rent were fulfilled the court shall order that the certificate shall cease to be in force and may order that it shall be deemed not to have been in force after such date, not earlier than the date of the application, as the court may specify.
The object of this Amendment is to meet in principle the Amendment that was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) during the course of the Committee stage. In subsection (2), if a local authority has issued a certificate of disrepair, the landlord may challenge it by taking action in the county court for the recovery of the repairs increase. If he satisfies the court that at the time when the certificate was given the conditions justifying an increase were in fact fulfilled, the court must annul the certificate, and it is then deemed never to have been granted. There is, however, no similar right of access to the court for a landlord who has not challenged a certificate of disrepair but has carried out the works in order to make the house fit. It is a good point, because it will encourage people to carry out work to qualify for the certificate.
We accept the Amendment but, as this is the last occasion on which we shall have an opportunity of speaking on this stage of the Bill, I want to call the attention of hon. Members to the Order Paper and to the large number of Amendments which we shall not be able to reach and which are of the utmost importance. I think hon. Members will agree that we have in the whole of the last two days rationed ourselves in the most disciplined way. We shall therefore accept what the Minister has moved and we shall not divide on this Amendment, but we shall divide on a later Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman is bound to move, because it is a consequence of the ignominious surrender which he made last night to his back benchers advocating the interests of private property.
I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said, and perhaps the rationing would have been better if he had not spent so much time—
The right hon. Gentleman must not speak a second time.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause 28.—(RESPONSIBILITY OF LANDLORD FOR REPAIRS.)
Amendment made: In page 22, line 29, after "thereto," insert:
"and of paragraph ( d ) of subsection (1) of section two of the Act of 1920."—[ Mr. H Macmillan. ]
Clause 31.—(EXCLUSION FROM RENT ACTS OF LETTINGS BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES, DEVELOPMENT CORPORATIONS, AND HOUSING ASSOCIATIONS AND TRUSTS.)
Amendments made: In page 24, line 2, leave out from "where," to end of line 3.
In line 4, at beginning, insert:
"the interest of the landlord belongs to."
In line 7, at beginning, insert "the said interest belongs to."
In line 9, at beginning, insert "the said interest belongs to."
In line 10, leave out "where."
In line 12, at beginning, insert "the said interest belongs to."—[ Mr. H. Macmillan. ]
It being Half-past Ten o'Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Orders, to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments moved by a member of the Gov
ernment, of which notice had been given, to the remaining part of the Bill.
Amendment proposed: In page 29, line 1, to leave out Clause 34.—[ Mr. H. Macmillan. ]
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The House divided: Ayes, 268; Noes, 245.
Division No. 70.] AYES [10.30 p.m. Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) Duthie, W. S. Lambert, Hon. G. Alport, C. J. M. Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M. Lambton, Viscount Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) Lancaster, Col. C. G Arbuthnot, John Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Langford-Holt, J. A. Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) Erroll, F. J. Leather, E. H. C. Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Fell, A Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Baldwin, A. E. Finlay, Graeme Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Banks, Col. C. Fisher, Nigel Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T Barber, Anthony Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F Lindsay, Martin Barlow, Sir John Fletcher-Cooke, C. Linstead, Sir H. N. Baxter, A. B. Ford, Mrs. Patricia Llewellyn, D. T. Beach, Maj. Hicks Fort, R. Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Foster, John Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone) Longden, Gilbert Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.) Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Low, A. R. W. Bennett, William (Woodside) Garner-Evans, E. H. Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd Lucas, P. B. (Brentford) Birch, Nigel Glover, D. Lyttelton, Rt. Hen. O Bishop, F. P. Godber, J. B. McAdden, S. J. Black, C. W. Gough, C. F. H McCallum, Major D. Boothby, Sir R. J. G Gower, H. R. McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S Bossom, Sir A. C. Graham, Sir Fergus Macdonald, Sir Peter Bowen, E. R. Grimond, J. Mackie, J. H. (Galloway) Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Maclean, Fitzroy Boyle, Sir Edward Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W.) Braine, B. R. Hall, John (Wycombe) MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty) Braithwaite, Sir Gurney Harden, J. R. E. Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H Hare, Hon. J. H. Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E. Brooman-White, R. C. Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Markham, Major Sir Frank Browne, Jack (Govan) Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) Marlowe, A. A. H. Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T Harvie-Watt, Sir George Marples, A. E. Bullard, D. G. Hay, John Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin) Bullus, Wing Commander E. E Head, Rt. Hon. A. H. Maude, Angus Burden, F. F. A. Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Maudling, R. Butcher, Sir Herbert Heath, Edward Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden) Higgs, J. M. C. Medlicott, Brig. F. Campbell, Sir David Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) Mellor, Sir John Cary, Sir Robert Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Molson, A. H. E. Channon, H. Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Moore, Sir Thomas Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston Hirst, Geoffrey Morrison, John (Salisbury) Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) Holland-Martin, C. J Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) Hollis, M. C Nabarro, G. D. N. Cole, Norman Holt, A. F. Neave, Airey Colegate, W. A. Hope, Lord John Nicholls, Harmar Conant, Maj. R. J. E. Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.) Cooper-Key, E. M. Horobin, I. M. Nield, Basil (Chester) Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) Nugent, G. R. H. Crouch, R. F. Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) Nutting, Anthony Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Oakshott, H. D. Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood) Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J. O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) Darling, Sir William (Edinblurgh, S.) Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.) Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Davidson, Viscountess Hutchison, James (Scotstoun) Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) Deedes, W. F. Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M. Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare) Digby, S. Wingfield Hylton-Foster, H. B. H Osborne, C. Dodds-Parker, A. D. Iremonger, T. L. Page, R. G. Donner, Sir P. W. Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Peake, Rt. Hon. O. Doughty, C. J. A. Jennings, Sir Roland Perkins, Sir Robert Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Peto, Brig. C. H. M Drayson, G. B. Jones, A. (Hall Green) Peyton, J. W. W. Drewe, Sir C. Kaberry, D. Pickthorn, K. W. M. Dugdale, Rt. Hon. Sir T. (Richmond) Kerby, Capt H J Pilkington, Capt. R. A Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. Kerr, H W Pitman, I. J. Pitt, Miss E. M. Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood) Tilney, John Powell, J. Enoch Snadden, W. McN. Touche, Sir Gordon Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) Soames, Capt. C. Turner, H. F. L. Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L Spearman, A. C. M. Turton, R. H. Profumo, J. D Speir, R. M. Tweedsmuir, Lady Raikes, Sir Victor Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.) Vane, W. M. F. Ramsden, J. E. Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. Redmayne, M. Stevens, G. P. Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) Rees-Davies, W. R Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.) Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone) Remnant, Hon. P. Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. Walker-Smith, D. C. Renton, D L. M. Storey, S. Wall, P. H. B. Ridsdale, J. E. Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) Ward, Hon. George (Worcester) Roberts, Peter (Heeley) Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray) Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth) Robertson, Sir David Summers, G. S. Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.) Sutcliffe, Sir Harold Watkinson, H. A. Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster) Roper, Sir Harold Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) Wellwood, W. Russell, R. S. Teeling, W. Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay) Ryder, Capt. R. E. D Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford) Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.) Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter) Scott, R. Donald Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway) Wills, G. Scott-Miller, Comdr. R. Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) Shepherd, William Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.) Wood, Hon. R. Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth) Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington) Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N. TELLERS FOR THE AYES: Mr. Studholme and Mr. Vosper.
NOES Acland, Sir Richard Driberg, T. E. N. Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Adams, Richard Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich) Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Albu, A. H. Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Keenan, W Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) Edelman, M. Kenyon, C. Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) Key, Rt. Hon. C. W Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) King, Dr. H. M. Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Lee, Frederick (Newton) Awbery, S. S. Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Bacon, Miss Alice Fernyhough, E. Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J Fienburgh, W. Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Bartley, P. Finch, H. J. Lewis, Arthur Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.) Lindgren, G. S. Bence, C. R. Follick, M. Lipton, Lt.-Col. M Benn, Hon. Wedgwood Foot, M. M. Logan, D. G. Benson, G. Forman, J. C. MacColl, J. E. Beswick, F. Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) McGhee, H. G Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) Freeman, John (Watford) McGovern, J. Bing, G. H. C. Gibson, C. W. Mclnnes, J. Blackburn, F. Gooch, E. G. McKay, John (Wallsend) Blenkinsop, A Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) McLeavy, F. Blyton, W. R. Grey, C. F. MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Boardman, H. Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) McNeil, Rt. Hon. H. Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G Griffiths, William (Exchange) MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Bowles, F. G. Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Mainwaring, W. H. Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Brockway, A. F. Hamilton, W. W Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Brook, Dryden (Halifax) Hannan, W. Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A Broughton, Dr. A. D. D Hardy, E. A. Mason, Roy Brown, Thomas (Ince) Hargreaves, A. Mayhew, C. P Burton, Miss F. E. Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.) Mellish, R. J. Callaghan, L. J. Hastings, S. Messer, Sir F. Carmichael, J. Hayman, F. H. Mikardo, Ian Castle, Mrs. B. A Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.) Mitchison, G. R Champion, A. J. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis) Monslow, W. Chapman, W. D Herbison, Miss M. Moody, A. S. Chetwynd, G. R Hobson, C. R. Morgan, Dr. H. B. W Clunie, J. Holman, P. Morley, R. Coldrick, W. Holmes, Horace Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Collick, P. H. Houghton, Douglas Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.) Corbet, Mrs. Freda Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) Mort, D. L. Cove, W. G. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Moyle, A. Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Mulley, F. W Crosland, C. A. R. Hynd, H. (Accrington) Murray, J. D. Crossman, R. H. S Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Nally, W. Cullen, Mrs. A. Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Daines, P. Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P J Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. O'Brien, T. Darling, George (Hillsborough) Janner, B Oliver, G. H Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T Orbach, M. Davies, Harold (Leek) Jeger, George (Goole) Oswald, T. de Freitas, Geoffrey Jeger, Mrs. Lena Padley, W. E. Deer, G. Jenkins, H. H. (Stechford) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Delargy, H. J. Johnson, James (Rugby) Palmer, A. M. F Dodds, N. N. Jones, David (Hartlepool) Pannell, Charles Donnelly, D. L Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.) Pargiter, G. A Parker, J. Skeffington, A. M. Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.) Parkin, B. T. Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield) Weitzman, D. Peart, T. F. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) Wells, Percy (Faversham) Plummer, Sir Leslie Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.) Wells, William (Walsall) Popplewell, E. Snow, J. W. West, D. G. Porter, G. Sorensen, R. W. Wheeldon, W. E. Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint) Price, Phillips (Gloucestershire, W.) Sparks, J. A. White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.) Proctor, W. T. Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. Pryde, D. J. Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. Wigg, George Pursey, Cmdr. H. Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall) Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B. Rankin, John Stross, Dr. Barnett Wilkins, W. A. Reeves, J. Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. Willey, F. T. Reid, Thomas (Swindon) Sylvester, G. O. Williams, David (Neath) Reid, William (Camlachie) Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery) Rhodes, H. Taylor, John (West Lothian) Williams, Ronald (Wigan) Robens, Rt. Hon. A. Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth) Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y) Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Thomas, George (Cardiff) Williams, W. R. (Droylsden) Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.) Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) Ross, William Thornton, E. Winterbottom, Ian (Nottinham, C.) Royle, C. Timmons, J. Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside) Shacklelon, E. A. A. Tomney, F. Wyatt, W. L. Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley Turner-Samuels, M. Yates, V. F. Short, E. W. Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn Shurmer, P. L. E. Usborne, H. C. TELLERS FOR THE NOES: Silverman, Julius (Erdington) Viant, S. P. Mr. Bowden and Mr. Pearson. Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) Wallace, H. W.
Clause 35.—(APPLICATION OF RENT ACTS TO DWELLINGS PROVIDED OR IMPROVED WITH ASSISTANCE UNDER PART II OF HOUSING ACT, 1949.)
Amendment made: In page 29, line 30, leave out from "twenty-two," to "or," in line 31, and insert:
"as respects any such dwelling as aforesaid, then as from the date specified in the next following subsection."
In line 34, leave out "of the approval of the application," and insert:
"specified in the next following subsection."
In line 39, at beginning, insert:
"without prejudice to the generality of the last foregoing paragraph."
In line 42, leave out from "apply," to end of line 43.
In line 43, at end, insert:
(3) The date hereinbefore referred to is the date on which the local authority certify that the improvement works to which the application in question related have been completed to their satisfaction:
Provided that no increase of rent shall be recoverable by virtue of the last foregoing subsection until, or in respect of any period prior to, the expiry of one clear week after the landlord has served on the tenant a notice in the prescribed form stating the amount of the standard rent fixed by the local authority and that the local authority have certified as aforesaid, but subject as aforesaid any such increase shall be recoverable notwithstanding anything in the terms of the tenancy or statutory tenancy or any enactment.—[ Mr. H. Macmillan. ]
Clause 38.—(INCREASE FOR RISE IN COST OF SERVICES PROVIDED UNDER PRE-1939 LETTINGS.)
Amendments made: In page 31, line 29, leave out from begining, to "and," in line 33, and insert:
(1) The following provisions of this section shall have effect where a dwelling-house is let under a controlled tenancy or is occupied by a statutory tenant.
In line 35, leave out "at," and insert "on."
In page 31, leave out line 41, and insert:
"and
( b ) services for the tenant are under the terms and conditions of the letting to be provided, or are provided, by the landlord."
In line 45, after "made," insert:
"after the commencement of this Act."
In page 32, line 10, after "time," insert:
"after the commencement of this Act."
In line 18, at end, insert:
"subject, however, to the provisions of the next following subsection.
(3) Where any such agreement or determination as is mentioned in the last foregoing subsection has been made in respect of services which the landlord is not under the terms and conditions of the letting liable to provide, any withholding or restoration of those services (whether in whole or in part) shall be treated for the purposes of subsection (3) of section two of the Act of 1920 (which relates to the effect on recoverable rent of the transfer of burdens and liabilities between landlord and tenant) as a transfer from the landlord or the tenant, as the case may be, of a burden previously borne by him."—[ Mr. H. Macmillan. ]
Clause 40.—(AMENDMENT OF MEANING OF EXPRESSION "TENANT" IN ACT OF 1920.)
Amendment made: In page 32, line 42, leave out from "1920," to "shall."—[ Mr. H. Macmillan. ]
Clause 45.—(INTERPRETATION OF PART II.)
Amendments made: In page 35, line 11, after second "tenant," insert:
"(as defined in paragraph ( g ) of subsection (1) of section twelve of the Act of 1920)."
In line 12, leave out from "Acts," to "and," in line 15, and insert:
"and not as being entitled to a tenancy."—[ Mr. H. Macmillan. ]
Second Schedule.—(PROOF OF PAST REPAIRS BY LANDLORD.)
Amendments made: In page 40, line 25, at end, insert "of repair."
In line 29, after "work," insert "of repair."—[ Mr. H. Macmillan ]
Fourth Schedule.—(MODIFICATIONS OF RENT ACTS IN APPLICATION TO TENANCIES PREVIOUSLY EXEMPTED UNDER S. 2 (3) (c) OF THE ACT OF 1939.)
Amendment made: In page 43, line 8, leave out from "a," to "of." in line 10, and insert
"tenancy as is mentioned in paragraph ( b ) of subsection (6) of section thirty-one."—[ Mr. H. Macmillan. ]
Fifth Schedule.—(REPEALS.)
Amendment made: In page 44, line 3, column 3, at end, insert:
"in the First Schedule, in paragraph ( g ), the word 'either,' the word 'or' in the third place in which it occurs, and sub-paragraph (ii)."—[ Mr. H. Macmillan. ]
Bill to be read the Third time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 93.]
Town and Country Planning [Money]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).—[ Queen's Recommendation signified. ]
[Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for compensation and other payments by reference to claims for payments under section fifty-eight of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, and to amend certain provisions of that Act, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid (in this resolution referred to as "the Act"), it is expedient to authorise—
10.45 p.m.
Before we part with this Money Resolution, I should like to ask the Minister one or two questions. During the Second Reading of the Bill he claimed that local authorities were satisfied about the negotiations that had taken place between himself, his department and them. I had reason to believe that that statement was slightly exaggerated, but had no wish to interfere with, and perhaps upset, future negotiations which might take place.
I have learned since the day we objected to the Resolution that further negotiations have taken place about items which would be affected by this Resolution and which are of great importance to the local authorities, namely, the interest payments under Part VI claims and the one-seventh settlement in future. On this Resolution those appear to be the responsibility of the local authority, and the central Government are accepting no responsibility for them. I think that before we leave this Resolution we should have from the Minister details, as far as he is prepared to give them, of the negotiations with the local authorities, and his assertion or otherwise that the local authorities are satisfied with the negotiations and their outcome as he indicated on Second Reading.
Perhaps the Minister would explain the first paragraph. There are references to "any Act of the present Session," "the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947," and "that Act." I think that is far from clear.
It is normal form.
The hon. Gentleman says that it is normal form. He is a lawyer and I am not; but, as far as this paragraph is concerned, it is not apparent which Acts are referred to in the preamble. The Minister must also understand that during the Committee stage, and it would be out of order to deal with Committee points now, we shall seek to show that this Bill is placing a heavy additional burden on local authorities.
One local authority has called my attention to the fact that this Money Resolution will mean that it will have to meet an extra Stamp Duty charge on one transaction of £900. Under the 1947 Act the Stamp Duty was on the existing use value of the purchase, and in the case I am thinking of the existing use value is £5,000, the Part VI claim is about £38,000, interest is about £7,000, and the total cost to the local authority is about £51,000. On the £5,000 existing use value the local authority under the 1947 Act was paying £100 in Stamp Duty. Under this Bill and this Money Resolution it will have to pay over £1,000. The Minister must realise that this Money Resolution will mean very heavy additional costs for the local authorities.
Finally, I refer to paragraph F (2) and the development charges in respect of the accommodation provided for agricultural workers. I am not at all sure why this is in the Money Resolution, and perhaps the Minister will be good enough to give some explanation of it.
10.52 p.m.
I should like to ask a question of the Minister about the reference to monopoly value and licensed premises. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah."] There is extensive reference to that matter in the Money Resolution. We are told there is to be payment out of moneys provided by Parliament
The right hon. Gentleman was very complimentary to me during Second Reading of the Bill on the subject of public houses. He referred to growing geraniums instead of running public houses. He seemed to think he would induce me into giving some moral support for his proposals. Monopoly value of a public house is provided for in the original legislation of 1910, and I should have thought that the whole question of monopoly value had been settled by earlier legislation. For that reason, I rather gather that some efforts are here being made with respect to a limited number of public houses. I know that the number is quite limited; that is, those licensed with a new licence between 1948 and the present time—or is it 1952?—but just how many there are I do not know.
I should like to hear before we part with this Money Resolution how many such public houses are involved, and what sums are expected to be paid out by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue? I should also like to know how much of the money being granted by Parliament is taken into account by the Government in framing their estimates?
I may be told that some of the money paid will find its way, not so much to the owners of the public houses, but to the local authorities because they have used the land in some different way than at first intended. If that is the case, I cannot understand it, because the monopoly value in the first instance arises only where a licence has actually been granted by the justices. That being so, I should have thought that there was no further claim for the payment of money by Parliament in order to meet the needs of the brewers, or of anyone else.
It may be that I have not understood the matter aright, but, if that be so, then I shall have the sympathy of hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House who also have not been able to understand it. At least one happy conclusion about this Bill is that it is the most enigmatic and undecipherable piece of legislation that has ever come before the House. But my real point is that when I see the term "monopoly value," and knowing the licensed trade as well as I do, I want at once to know what it means in relation to this Measure, and if hon. Members opposite do not know the licensed trade, I can tell them that that trade will have worked out most carefully every advantage which can be obtained.
10.57 p.m.
I wish to speak on only one or two points. Like my hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) I should be glad to have some explanation of the first paragraph of the Resolution; for, I must say, it seems to be in keeping with some other parts of the Bill in that it is completely obscure. I am not certain which Act is the subject matter of that paragraph, and we should have that point made quite clear before getting on to consider its implications.
My more substantial point is the Part III payments in respect of compensation by local authorities for the future acquisition of land, compulsorily or voluntarily obtained. As the Minister knows, the local authorities were, at the time of the Second Reading of the Bill, and I am informed still are, dissatisfied with this proposal that they should have to pay the 1/7 supplement in lieu of interest. They think that it is unfair and unjust, particularly since, under the 1947 Act, the interest payments were to be the liability of the Exchequer, whereas now, under this new arrangement, they are to be part and parcel of the compensation payments by the local authorities. This, I gather, is the view of the Minister. I still cannot understand on what basis he comes to this inequitable conclusion.
When I raised this point on the Second Reading, all the Attorney-General said was that the Minister hoped to convert the local authorities to the view that he was right. I understand that a meeting took place as recently as Monday last. I do not believe the Minister has converted the local authorities. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us that his mind is not finally made up on what the local authorities are bound to regard as an unjust proposal. The fact that there has been five years' delay and so five years' interest due is not their fault but is due to changes in Government policy. Whether the Government are right or wrong, it seems most unfair that the local authorities should have to bear the interest payments. I hope that the Minister will say something about the matter.
How does the Money Resolution tie up with the proposal of the Bill for percentage grants? The Bill is intended to fix a different percentage for different purposes, but I am not clear whether the effect is to increase or to decrease the charge on the Exchequer, or to leave it more or less the same. Nor am I clear whether any extra provision which may be made necessary is covered by the Money Resolution. I am only anxious to know, so that there will be freedom in Committee to discuss the question whether or not grants should be made, or whether these proposals of the Minister are to be substituted for them. I should be grateful for some enlightenment from the right hon. Gentleman on these points.
11.3 p.m.
The Financial Resolution was postponed in order that I might have an opportunity of further discussion with representatives of the local authorities. That discussion has taken place, and our views were very frankly exchanged. I do not say that they have accepted in every detail what I put forward, but I thought they thoroughly understood the force of the argument, and they expressed their views. I responded by giving them the decision which the Government felt it right to give them.
I will take first the point which I knew would come, when I saw the word "brewers." I knew the "King Charles's Head" would come out again. In regard to the reference in the Resolution to payments by the Commissioner of Customs and Excise, I can assure the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. J. Hudson) that this is not a brewers' charter. All that happens is that what the Central Land Board do for everybody else in respect of development charge will be done for the brewers.
Since the 1947 Act came into force, the brewers have had to pay a development charge when they built a public house. Happily that has gone. I do not know whether it is the policy to put back some of the development charge, but brewers have for many years, long before the development charge, had to pay monopoly value to the Customs and Excise Commissioners. It was found that the collection of that monopoly value creamed off the increase of value that would ordinarily have been collected as a development charge, so what happened was that the development charge was collected through the Customs and Excise and not through the Central Land Board. Since the brewers paid a sum equivalent to the development charge, it is obviously right that they should be treated like everybody else. Since it was the Customs and Excise who collected the charge, it falls upon them to make the payments in this case. So there is really nothing except the normal procedure.
As regards the number of cases, so far as we can find out there are between 100 and 200 licensed premises in question. As regards the amount of money collected by the Customs and Excise Commissioners, rather than the Central Land Board, by way of development charge, we cannot tell. This has no connection with the local authorities or monopoly value as such. It is simply the different machinery for collecting the money, and therefore the same machinery must be used for the unscrambling operation.
The point I wish to put to the right hon. Gentleman is this. Would not the brewers have paid on the monopoly value to the Customs and Excise? Would they not have paid anyhow a value that was equivalent to the sort of value we are now discussing in this Bill? Why should they therefore be let off any part of that payment?
They are let off that extra payment that would have been paid in lieu of development charge. But the other part remains in the ordinary way, according to the pre-1947 legislation. I hope that is clear and will relieve the hon. Gentleman.
The agricultural workers' point is dealt with in the Resolution because the Bill lifts the liability for development charge on agricultural workers' cottages and relieves local authorities; and remission of an outstanding charge must be covered by the Resolution.
Now I come to the main points raised by the hon. Member. I must say a word on this, as it is a matter of some importance. I am asked what is the position of the local authorities. Under the Silkin Act, they bought the land at present existing use value, but they had to pay full development charge. The charge would clearly rise through the years as values rose. Under the new system, they will buy land at existing use value plus claim; in fact, at a price fixed at the 1947 level so far as the development aspect is concerned. In other words, they will buy at a fixed price. Surely they would not wish to return to either of the theoretical alternatives, one of which would be the open market price at the time of purchase, which is the only possible alternative if we abolish the £300 million pay-out, the great pay-out and the rest of it. One possibility is that they would be asked to pay at the open market price at the time of purchase.
The landlords might have a grievance—and, indeed, have some grievance—but not the local authorities. Of course, the local authorities gain enormously, because they pay existing use value plus the claim, and as the years go by that will become more and more profitable to them. For there is no doubt that generally market value in present circumstances means payment of more money than the fixed price system.
The right hon. Gentleman talks all the time of existing use value plus the claim. But it is existing use value plus the Part VI claim, plus interest, so far as past transactions are concerned. As for future transactions, it is existing value, plus Part VI claim, plus one-seventh.
I shall come to that. The hon. Gentleman did not mention that, although it was mentioned by his hon. Friend. That is the alternative, and over the long run they will gain enormously. Certainly it will not be the local authorities who will have a grievance. Possibly the landlords may.
The only other alternative to the system of the open market would be a continuation of the development charge, but then no one wanted the development charge. I have heard no one who is prepared—and certainly hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite did not do so on Second Reading of last year's Bill—to get up and say it is part of their policy to put back the development charge. That system was bound to be more costly in the long run to the acquiring authorities because, as values rose, so did the development charge. If then they are to buy at a fixed price—and that is the advantage we give—surely it must be the existing use value plus the claim.
I now come to the question of the basis on which the price based on the claim should be worked out. Is it to be the claim as registered in the records, or is it to be plus the supplement which is really part of the capital of the claim, for the supplement is due to the landlords in lieu of interest for the period of six or seven years? If the acquiring authority—whether local authorities or the Government—is to buy at a fixed price, it must clearly pay the whole of the fixed price. There is no logic in separating out one of the elements which make up the whole price. These are three—existing use value, which fluctuates; the claim fixed under the 1947 Act; and the supplement, because that is part of the capital of the claim. One cannot say, "We will not pay that one." We must have a settlement as a whole, and this, I claim, is beneficial to the local authorities.
The amendment of the financial provisions does not put an increased burden on the local authorities acquiring land. On the contrary, by and large, they do not lose in the short run, and I think I was able to demonstrate to the representatives of the Association—and they really accepted it—that they will stand to gain in the long run. What they would have liked was to have gained a little more on the short run by not paying the interest, but if you gain a little on the short run and a good deal on the long run the settlement must be taken as a whole.
There are certain instances in which they may lose—in cases where a small development charge or none at all would have been incurred. That point has been generally made. By relieving them of development charge, we are relieving them of nothing at all. That is because of development charge arrangements over open spaces. Where they bought land for open spaces under the 1947 Act no development charge was made, and it is of course no benefit to them because I am relieving them of nothing. But there is no other way of maintaining the general plan that, whatever the authority that makes the payment, it should undertake the whole. The right way to meet it is not to alter the general plan, with the paying out authority paying the existing price plus claim; the claim as at 1947 plus the seventh which is the capital element. We should see how far any difficulties can be met by other arrangements.
I have no regret about open spaces. I still think that as a whole the local authorities will gain over the whole field. Their major purchases of housing and industrial estates far outweigh in importance their purchases for other purposes. The right way is by making a special grant. That is what we are doing in the Bill. Grants for open spaces will for most authorities be considerably increased. I have the details here. Broadly speaking, one could say that we shall make them all 50 per cent. Out of the 146 county councils and county boroughs, 56 already get 50 per cent.; 55 will go from 40 per cent. to 50 per cent.; 28 from 30 per cent. to 50 per cent.; and seven, including the London County Council, from 20 per cent. to 50 per cent.
Taking the matter as a whole, the local authorities will gain by accepting the new scheme. They cannot take little bits and reject others. They must take it as a whole. The benefit to them in the short run is not small: in the long run it is very substantial. If there is any minor loss here and there on any individual parts in the short run, I think that the right method is by the percentage grant, and that is one which we have adopted.
We can go into greater details during our discussions on the Bill, but I hope that the Committee will feel that it is appropriate to agree to the Resolution now.
11.17 p.m.
I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his full explanation, though I must say that I am still in some difficulty about the agricultural workers. I take it from him that for some technical reason which I fail to follow it is necessary to have the provision in the Resolution.
On the question of the local authorities, as I said on Second Reading, there are cases where the market price would in fact be more beneficial than the proposals which the Minister makes. That again is a matter which may be gone into during the Committee stage of the Bill. The point which puzzles me in the attitude of the Minister is the interest payable in cases of future claims. I do not see how a landlord has been kept out of any money at any stage in respect of which he would have been entitled to any interest. I fail to follow the Minister's case in that instance. We must consider that further during the Committee stage of the Bill.
One of my hon. Friends asked whether it would be possible to raise the 50 per cent. flat rate, at any rate to the extent of ensuring that the amount of grant paid to the local authorities at present is attained under the overall system which the Minister proposes. I should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman could give some indication upon that matter.
I stand to be corrected, but I should say that the grants made for ordinary purposes can be made from year to year by the Minister of the day, voted by Parliament in the ordinary Estimates. I think that that will be possible for the Government if they want to raise the grant for any purposes they like. I do not think that the Government are tied down by anything in the Resolution. I was merely saying that that was the procedure that we intended to adopt.
But as I understand the position, this merely covers the 50 per cent. grant. I put the question as succinctly as possible. Would it be possible on the Resolution to move to raise the effect of the Minister's scheme from the 50 per cent. average to, say, a 60 per cent. average? That is the first point. The second point is whether, if the 50 per cent. grant works out at less than the present grant, it would be possible under this Resolution to raise the 50 per cent. up to the level of the present grant.
I think that I am right in saying that the Resolution is drawn less tightly than has been sometimes the custom, and I think that it would be in order on the Committee stage to raise the question of the rate of grant. That is the general question. As regards the second part of the question, whether one should raise a particular grant, if the hon. and learned Gentleman means a particular grant for a particular purpose, I should say, "No." I do not think we could provide that a grant for some playing field for one town should be made to be different from another.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.
Air Pollution, Derby
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Major Conant. ]
11.21 p.m.
The subject that I have to raise is purely a constituency matter, but it is one that has been troubling me as a Member for part of Derbyshire since 1946. It is the smoke emission from the British Electricity Authority's station at Spondon, smoke from chimneys at a very low level heavily charged with sulphur dioxide. Ever since it was first brought to my notice in 1946, I have been raising the subject with various people at various levels.
In 1946, at the start of my representations, I was told by the then Nottingham and Derbyshire Electricity Company that the trouble was due to the low quality of fuel as a result of wartime and immediate post-war difficulties. In 1948, after nationalisation of the industry, I was again told that there were still difficulties about the low grade of fuel that had to be supplied to this and other stations. I was also told at that time that there was urgent need to re-equip the station, or at any rate to take the boilers out of commission and do a great deal of work on them. The difficulty at that time was that it was impossible to do without the electricity that was being obtained from the station, and for that reason the Authority was unable to carry out the necessary technical operation.
Dealing only at two-yearly intervals with the things that I have said and have been told about this station, I come to 1950 when I visited the station and met the engineers there. Again I was told about difficulties with the low quality fuel which was being supplied. But I was also told that to alleviate the smoke emission somewhat about £750,000 would have to be spent on boiler plant and raising the chimneys to a height of 320 ft. I was also told that a new station which was then being built at Keadby would take much of the load from the area and that as a result there would be a less heavy load on the boilers at Spondon, thus reducing the smoke emission.
At that time I wrote to the then Minister of Fuel and Power asking if he could help in the matter of the low quality of fuel which was being supplied to the station. The reply I received was to the effect that he
To me it then seemed that we had got beyond regional level and that some decision would have to be taken at the very much higher level of the central Authority itself. I took it up with Lord Citrine. He told me that he would do what was possible to remedy or minimise the nuisance provided it could be done at reasonable cost. He went on to say that the only real remedy for the difficulties existing in and around the station was the scrapping of very much of the plant and replacing it with modern equipment. He also said—and we are bound to recognise the truth of this—that:
However, even my tolerance has been a little strained by this last reply from Lord Citrine. As I read it, what he is saying is, "We are being forced to spend money on making life safer for the fishes, so a cleaner atmosphere for human beings must be put off for a few more years." It means that as a result of the injunction he must do certain things to get a cleaner Derwent River below the Spondon station.
I shall be very happy to see anglers sitting on the banks of the Derwent below Spondon station. I think that I should be very much happier were I able to see abolished this blinding, choking smoke that comes sweeping across the houses and the air being made really fit for human beings to breathe. The sulphur dioxide in the smoke coming from these chimneys really does shrivel up vegetation in its path. Recently British Celanese have opened a sports field about half a mile or so from this station. They put new galvanised fencing up to enclose that sports field, and within six months as a result of the action of the smoke from these chimneys that fencing has turned a red rust, something which I understand is unusual unless it was affected by the smoke. What of the effect on human beings of this sulphur dioxide laden smoke? My constituents are not blind to the facts revealed by the Standing Advisory Committee on Cancer, which said:
I believe, too, that the time has come for the Minister to give a direction to the British Electricity Authority about this station. If that is all that is required, and Lord Citrine seems to be hinting at it in his letters to me, it is time the Minister gave such a direction If all that is desired is sanction for the necessary capital expenditure, I hope that this part of Derbyshire will be able to get something done to this obsolete plant, which ought to be replaced. The only cure for this trouble is undoubtedly a new plant, and I do hope that that will be recognised, and that the Minister will do something to sweep away this old plant.
11.33 p.m.
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Champion) for having raised this matter and having given me an opportunity of replying to the points he has put forward. At the same time, I should like to congratulate him on the pertinacity with which he has pursued this matter for the last eight years. It has not been for all that time that I have had an interest in it, or that I have had any knowledge of the circumstances.
I am not here to deny in any shape or form that there is some sulphur nuisance around this area. There is no question about that. The Electricity Authority, largely at the instigation of the hon. Gentleman, has during the past few years, directly and indirectly, through technical organisations carried out prolonged and extensive tests in the atmosphere to try to ascertain what pollution there is, where it comes from, the degree of its intensity and the danger it may produce. There is no doubt that these tests have proved that so far as the sulphur dioxides are concerned they do not only come from the Electricity Authority's station. Tests on the leeward side of the station show that there is sulphur deposit on that side; but there is also sulphur deposit on the windward side. That shows quite clearly that, as one can only expect in the neighbourhood of such a great and growing place as Derby, there is a general tendency towards sulphur deposit from all the smoke and sulphur producing chimneys that there are in the locality.
I say that not to cast blame on anybody else. Sulphur production is an exceedingly difficult thing to control. Of one thing there is no doubt at all—and this is the reason why I make this clear—that the cure of the complaint from the power station is not likely to cure the whole complaint in the area. It is only right that that point should be made quite clear on behalf of the British Electricity Authority. Having made that point clear, I want to make the next point clear, and that is that the British Electricity Authority entirely accepts its responsibility for its share of the cause of the trouble.
It is only fair to the Authority to elaborate a little upon what the hon. Gentleman said as to the way in which this station grew, because no part of the station and the generating plant itself has been constructed by the Authority. It was a station that the Authority took over at vesting day. It is one which consists of seven separate turbo-alternators, of which the most recent one was put down in 1945 shortly before vesting day, and is of 30 megawatt capacity.
Nowadays we consider 30 megawatt capacity comparatively small. We talk in terms of 100 megawatts or 120 megawatts, and we look forward, perhaps rather enviously, to the American standard, which is considerably higher than that. The earliest turbo-alternator in this plant was commissioned in 1925 and was a machine of 12 megawatt capacity. There are several of that capacity in this series of seven machines which make up the complete generating plant at Spondon. They give a total capacity of 172 megawatts, and they consist altogether of 22 boilers which are chain-grate stoker boilers. They consume altogether about 500,000 tons of coal a year.
The difficulty from the hon. Gentleman's point of view is that each one of those 22 boilers has a separate short steel chimney. I think eight of them are 112 feet high and the rest are 150 feet high. The effect is that the flue gases and the grit have no means either of dispersing or of being trapped. They do not contain anything comparable to the modern grit arresters or anything comparable to the modern fans and apparatus that disperse the fumes in the modern type of chimney, and they are the cause of the trouble. These 22 comparatively short chimneys—the hon. Gentleman will correct me if I am wrong, because he knows them and has seen them—I imagine are comparatively hideous eyesores on the landscape.
There is one thing which the hon. Member suggested as a possibility, and that is that this station might be closing down, but I am afraid that I have to disappoint him there. There is no likelihood of that at all, for the reason that this station is one which generates electricity especially for local consumption and distribution. It is linked to the grid system, but it is not a station which normally contributes any substantial amount of electricity for absorption by the grid. It is mainly for local consumption, and happily the town of Derby and its environs are increasingly users of electricity; the demand is likely to continue.
But I have a grain of comfort for the hon. Member, and that is in the fact that the British Electricity Authority is at the present time in the course of preparing specifications and drawings which will lead to a change at this station. The change which is content- plated is the elimination of these 22 chimneys and the concentration of flue gases in one new chimney. This new chimney, or stack, will be one of 21 ft. in diameter and of a height of 350 ft., and the effect of that will be, when it is installed with modern grit arresters and fans, that the grit will be trapped and the gases blown up by those fans to a height of something like 700 ft., or double the height of the stack, before they begin to dissipate at all. Therefore, so far as the sulphur production from this station is concerned, the hon. Gentleman should then have no justification for receiving further complaints from his constituents.
Yet there is no certainty, and, indeed, I think we must say that it cannot be contemplated, that the removal of the sulphur emitted from this station is going to eliminate all cause for complaint about sulphur in the neighbourhood, because the Authority is by no means the sole producer of sulphur in this area. But what it is proposed shall be done, and what we hope will have taken effect probably during the summer of 1955—at a period of the year when lighter days reduce the demand for electricity—will, we hope, meet the Authority's responsibility. At that time of year plant can be taken out for repair, and we hope then for the change-over to the new chimney, and so far as the Authority is concerned, I think that the hon. Gentleman will then find no cause for complaint by his constituents.
I should like to thank the hon. Gentleman for that very helpful reply, which will be received with appreciation, not only by me, but also by my constituents.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at a quarter to Twelve o'Clock.