asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air the source and identity of the Royal Air Force aircraft flying low over Hammersmith on the evening of 21st June.

The aircraft was a Lincoln of Bomber Command taking part in a rehearsal for the Soldiers', Sailors' and Airmen's Families Association Searchlight Tattoo at the White City.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this aircraft was flying at a height of 300 feet without navigation lights, and caused quite a lot of consternation to people in the neighbourhood, especially patients in hospitals? Will the hon. Gentleman undertake that in future aircraft of this size and character fly at the regulation height and display navigation lights?

Yes, Sir. I am very sorry that the public was disturbed in this way on this occasion. Last year a Lincoln bomber did the same thing without public protest. This year, unfortunately, the aircraft was forced down by low cloud below the height at which it would not have caused any complaint.

How was this machine traced, when normally anyone who makes a complaint is told that he must quote its number?

This aircraft was taking part in a searchlight tattoo, and there was only one aircraft there.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he will now make a further statement in regard to the future of the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve aircrew reserve.

We are now training aircrew reservists on the basis which I announced in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud and Thornbury (Sir R. Perkins) on 20th January and during the Air Estimates debate on 4th March.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the feeling among R.A.F.V.R. aircrew reservists that their services could well be used for aircraft of a character other than jet aircraft? Has this been considered, and is my hon. Friend quite satisfied that there is no use to which these highly skilled and experienced pilots can be put?

I ask my hon. Friend to be good enough to look at my previous statements on this matter. We have discussed it in this House on many occasions. To put the point briefly, we must concentrate our available resources on training men who will be of use to us in the very early days of a war.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he will make a statement in regard to the further discussions which have taken place concerning the distinction between industrial engineering staff employed by his Department and dilutees in regard to eligibility for merit pay.

I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave on 2nd June, 1954, to the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. R. Bell).

Would my hon. Friend say whether there is any substance in the reports that further negotiations have taken place and that a further agreement has been made in which a new kind of merit pay has been introduced, over and above the merit pay of £1?

The only agreement that has been made about merit pay is that dilutees with more than five years' service will be able to qualify for the rates of merit pay that may be earned by fully skilled workers.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air why he has altered Air Ministry Regulations in Air Publication 826, paragraph 45A, so as to make it no longer obligatory for commanding officers of units to meet officials representing trade unions other than those which are represented directly or indirectly on Air Ministry Whitley Councils.

No amendment has been made to this paragraph.

Can my hon. Friend assure the House that none will be made, in view of the necessity to defend minorities?

It is not intended to make any Amendment to this paragraph.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air the duties of the commandants, medical officers and chaplains of detention camps; how often a prisoner is medically examined; how often a commandant is required to see the prisoners; and how it came about that the results of maltreatment constantly applied at the Wahnerheide Royal Air Force detention camp were never observed by these officers.

The duties of these officers are laid down in the Rules for Military Detention Barracks and Military Prisons, which have been applied to Air Force establishments. Each prisoner is medically examined on arrival. Afterwards any man can report sick when the medical officer makes his daily visit. The commandant sees each prisoner as soon as possible after arrival, and he visits the whole of the establishment at least once in every 24 hours. The only visible sign of injury at Wahnerheide was explained away by the man himself.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that while everyone appreciates the very prompt action he took in the matter, the information which he has given seems to disclose widespread cruelty which must have produced results, and, one would have thought, must have been known to the officers in the camp if they were doing their duty? Will the hon. Gentleman further understand that when we were "old sweats" we all held the view that there was a mysterious dispensation which protected everybody above the rank of sergeant from the slings and arrows of misfortune?

We have been into the matter very carefully. During the court-martial proceedings, the prisoners had every opportunity to give evidence against anybody they wished, and there is no evidence whatever that the officers were in any way involved in ill-treatment.

I did not suggest they were. No one suggested that the officers were concerned with the cruelty, but they had observed it.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what are the limitations of the right of punishment at Royal Air Force detention units; by whom punishments can be ordered; what registers are kept; and what steps are taken to prevent prisoners being submitted to excessive or harmful drill.

Punishments for an offence against the rules of the establishment can be imposed by the commandant or another officer to whom the commandant has delegated power. More serious offences are dealt with by a board of visitors. Details of all charges preferred and the punishments awarded are entered in a register. A senior non-commissioned officer is always present when prisoners are being drilled.

Does the Under-Secretary not think that, in view of the public anxiety which has long existed about conditions in the detention camps, whether justified or not, the appointment of an independent inspectorate corresponding to that of Her Majesty's prisons would be very useful and would improve the Services?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have recently had a court of inquiry, which went very carefully into the administration of the unit, and it recommended certain changes which we have now adopted. I do not think we should have any more difficulty.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air how far it is the custom at Royal Air Force detention units to ask a released prisoner to sign a note to the effect that he has no complaints to make of his treatment whilst in camp; how many were asked to sign at Wahnerheide during the 12 months to the most recent convenient date; how many refused; and what is the normal consequence of a refusal.

This practice is not customary at Royal Air Force detention units, and it has now been discontinued at Wahnerheide. All the 180 airmen released from Wahnerheide during the 12 months ending 31st May, 1954, signed the form in question. No disciplinary action would have been taken if any of them had refused to sign.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he comes out of this matter with very considerable credit?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air why special preference is given by officers' selection boards to former pupils of schools included within the Headmasters' Conference.

No such preference is given.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I had evidence from a clerk to one of these boards who records the results of interviews and is instructed by the board to check the school of every candidate against a list of Headmasters' Conference schools and to mark "H.C.S." against every candidate who went to such a school so that he can automatically get a second interview, however badly he failed the first? Will the Parliamentary Secretary look into this matter and see why this discrimination is operating?

If the hon. Gentleman cares to send me details of any case he has in mind, I shall be glad to investigate anything, but such limited study as I have been able to make in the time available has shown that more than half of the officers selected in recent years have not attended Headmasters' Conference schools.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that even though rather less than half attended Headmasters' Conference schools, that is a much higher proportion of candidates coming from those schools than in the case of the other schools? If the figure is anything like half, it would suggest, all things being equal, that preference is given to those who attended Headmasters' Conference schools.

Why should all other things be equal? If they are selected on their merits, as they are, why should it not happen that those coming from Headmasters' Conference schools have, on balance, rather more merit?

Irrespective of any details which my hon. Friend may send to the Under-Secretary, will he look into the point that the fact that people come from a particular school is drawn to the attention of the selection board, and will the hon. Gentleman ascertain why this should be, and discontinue it, so that everyone can be sure of getting a fair chance?

I will certainly look into that. But I should have thought that if anyone is interviewing a candidate for a commission, one of the things he wants to know is the sort of education the candidate has had.

Will my hon. Friend tell the House whether the procedure followed at these boards is in any way different today from the procedure followed in 1950 and 1951?

I do not think it is.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is aware that highway authorities are experiencing difficulty in repairing and maintaining unclassified roads; and if he will give consideration to making a grant of £100 per mile towards this category of road.

My right hon. Friend is debarred by the Local Government Act of 1929 from making grants towards the cost of maintaining unclassified roads in counties.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the condition of these roads in the rural areas continues to be deplorable, and does he not consider that it is time he and his right hon. Friend did some constructive thinking about these roads? Does he not consider that the most equitable way of dealing with the matter is on a cost per mile basis?

No, Sir. The responsibility for maintaining unclassified roads rests on the local highway authority. Under the Equalisation Grant, in the case of Anglesey, for example, 47·6 per cent. of the money which is spent on these unclassified roads is derived from the Exchequer.

Has the Minister given consideration to the Report of the Council for Wales which states that the grant made for these purposes is completely inadequate? Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider the matter in the light of that Report?

No grants are made by my Ministry for the maintenance of unclassified roads. As I said in answer to the main Question, we are debarred from doing so by the Act of 1929.

Is it not the case that the Government spokesman promised that legislation would be introduced in order to make it possible for the hon. Gentleman's Ministry and for the Ministry of Agriculture to do this? Will the hon. Gentleman tell us why no progress has been made?

I am not aware of any promise to that effect having been made. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is referring to the special grants which were proposed in the case of Wales under the White Paper dealing with the matter, but that is a matter for the Ministry of Agriculture and it does not affect my Department.

Is it not the case that we were promised by the Minister for Welsh Affairs that, in conjunction with the Ministry of Transport and the Ministry of Agriculture, he would go into this matter to see what grants could be made? This Question is directed specifically to that matter. Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what has happened?

We are considering with the Ministry of Agriculture what steps should be taken to give effect to the proposals made in favour of the Principality of Wales, although it is not at all likely that Anglesey will qualify for any grant under this scheme.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will revise the method of grants for Class III roads so that the grants are made on a mileage basis of £150 per mile.

No, Sir. A mileage basis would take no account of special factors such as the nature of the country, the width of the road, the amount of traffic, and the nature of the work to be undertaken.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the condition of the Class III roads is little better than that of unclassified roads? Does he not consider that the cost per mile grant would treat the whole country more equitably than the present 40 per cent. grant?

No, Sir. For the reasons which I have given, I do not think it would have that effect. At present we are making a grant of 50 per cent. towards approved maintenance projects started by local authorities.

Would the Minister be good enough to look into the position of unclassified roads and see if a larger number of unclassified roads could go into the Class III category and then carry the grants?

No, Sir. The roads are classified according to their value for through traffic. Roads which are of local value are the responsibility of the local highway authority.

Are all these considerations which would have been applied normally not now being reconsidered, in view of the promise given that the Report of the Council for Wales would be considered by the Government? Am I to understand that the Ministry of Transport has not been concerned in any of these consultations?

The particular proposals in favour of certain rural areas in Wales are now under consideration by the Ministry of Agriculture, and we have been consulted upon them. These questions are addressed to the general law relating to grants for classified and unclassified roads. There is no proposal to make any change in the general law on that subject.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is yet able to give a decision about the construction of a roundabout at Muckley Corner, Staffordshire; and whether he is now able to give a firm reply to the possibilities proposed by the Parliamentary Secretary of his Department in his letter, dated 3rd January, to the hon. Member for Lichfield and Tamworth.

No, Sir. Detailed plans and estimates cannot be made until various questions relating to the removal of the garage at this crossroads have been resolved, and this is likely to take some further time.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that answer is absolutely and entirely unsatisfactory? This matter has been raised by me in the House no fewer than three times in the last year; he has received notice direct from the local authority; it has received full support from the local road safety committee. Is not something to be done about this wretched roundabout? The cost will not be great, and the landlords in the vicinity have given full support to the proposal.

My information is not entirely in accordance with that of the hon. Member. The local planning authority is not prepared to agree to the re-erection on a new site of a garage which is constructed of temporary materials. Until a decision has been given by the local planning authority on the minimum standards of buildings which it is prepared to authorise, it is not possible to prepare a firm estimate of the scheme and to decide its place in the programme.

The hon. Gentleman will hear more about this.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what action he has taken to relieve the traffic congestion at Smithfield market; and whether he is now satisfied that meat is being moved in and out with sufficient expedition.

Some difficulties were encountered on Monday, 5th July, but traffic moved normally later in the week. We are satisfied that the measures taken by the Commissioner of Police for the City of London—particularly the ban on private cars entering the market precincts—have been successful in restoring the free movement of traffic.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him for an assurance that he will not use helicopters at Smithfield?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will name those schemes to which his Department has allotted a higher priority than to the construction of a new high level bridge at Barton, Eccles; and what authorities outside his Department he consulted in determining these priorities.

The large schemes mentioned in my right hon. Friend's statement of 8th December have been allotted higher priority than the Barton Bridge scheme. The decision as to priorities is necessarily my right hon. Friend's own, although he tries to give due weight to any views which highway authorities and other responsible bodies and persons may express as to the importance of individual schemes.

Can we take it then that the statement that the hon. Gentleman made on Wednesday last in answer to a supplementary question of mine is not correct, and that there are not large numbers of schemes left that will have priority over Barton Bridge?

That is not a logical deduction to draw from the answer have given.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will appoint a committee to consider what priority should be given to the erection of a new high level bridge at Barton.

No, Sir.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what modifications he proposes to ask the corporation of Glasgow to make in their original plans for the Whiteinch Tunnel in view of the increase in the estimate.

I have nothing to say on this matter until my right hon. Friend has discussed the question with representatives of the corporation.

But surely the hon. Gentleman will have something to say now? Does he intend to ask Glasgow Corporation to modify the proposals which his right hon. Friend endorsed in December of last year?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman did not hear my answer. I have nothing to say on this matter.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman did not hear my supplementary.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation on what date he is meeting the representatives of Glasgow Corporation to discuss modifying the Whiteinch Tunnel project.

My right hon. Friend is meeting the deputation on Tuesday, 27th July.

May I thank the hon. Gentleman for being so communicative and ask him whether he is aware that he has now indicated that he is meeting the deputation on 27th July in order to discuss modifying the proposals for the Whiteinch Tunnel?

It is in order to discuss generally the Whiteinch Tunnel.

On a point of order. The question is that the hon. Gentleman is meeting the corporation to discuss the modification of the proposed tunnel. That is the question.

There is no point of order in that.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is aware that many of the zebra crossings in the city of Liverpool have not been equipped with flashing-light beacons; and what steps he proposes to take to cause the authority in Liverpool to provide the protection to which pedestrians are entitled by equipping the beacons at the zebra crossings with flashing lights.

I understand that beacon equipment has now been installed at most of the crossings in Liverpool and the contract for the electricity supply has been placed. The work should be completed and the beacons operating very shortly.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this failure of the corporation even to anticipate the changes to be made has caused a great deal of concern? Does he realise that opinion in Liverpool and in many other places is that the new regulations, coupled with the disappearance of some crossings, make it appear that the Ministry of Transport is more concerned about getting speed on the roads and is entirely neglecting the duty to preserve the life of the pedestrian?

It is not for me to comment on the administration of the Liverpool Corporation. In answer to the second part of the question, I would say that my right hon. Friend has a dual responsibility which is to try to minimise road accidents and also to try to keep road traffic moving.

Is the Minister aware that on the way to the North there is great congestion of traffic on Scotland Road and that even the lighting of zebra crossings will not get rid of the difficulties and dangers? Is there any possibility of an underground tunnel to allow old people and others a measure of safety?

This matter has been considered and some research into it has been carried out by the Road Research Laboratory. Unfortunately, it has been found that pedestrians are extremely unwilling to use underground tunnels when they are provided.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I live on the spot and I see congestion at this bottleneck every day of the week—except when I am here. [Interruption.] I had to put in that proviso. The fact is that the little archway from Cazneau Street to the Rotunda Theatre is the main way to the North of England and it is continuously congested. There is no other solution but the provision of an underground passage. Will the hon. Gentleman look into the matter?

I am certainly prepared to look into the matter.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many schemes of road improvement were submitted to him by the Glamorgan County Council for 1954–55; and how many he has sanctioned.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the number of schemes of road improvement, and the estimated cost thereof submitted to him by the Glamorgan County Council; and the number of schemes and the estimated cost thereof which have been sanctioned in the current financial year.

The Glamorgan County Council submitted 77 schemes, estimated to cost £1,063,000, of which my right hon. Friend has approved three estimated to cost £9,000. Two further schemes costing some £4,200 (of which £2,850 is to be paid by way of grant) put forward direct by claiming authorities for Glamorganshire, have also been accepted for grant. I would also remind the hon. Member of the Neath by-pass and the Port Talbot by-pass included in the first three years of the present road programme and estimated to cost together nearly £4 million.

Will the hon. Gentleman remember that there is a special case for Glamorgan because of the poverty of the 1930s which has left behind a black-log of road schemes which is probably unequalled in any other part of the country? Will the hon. Gentleman receive a deputation from the Glamorgan County Council, which has communicated with all Welsh Members on this matter?

It is extraordinary how many counties are able to produce special claims for special consideration. It is largely because of the special circumstances that Glamorgan obtained such a large share of the expenditure on trunk roads.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that this was a development area and that some hundreds of factories have been built which employ 100,000 people and that the whole place is highly congested? Will he look at the matter again so that this development area can be free from the stanglehold of an inadequate transport system?

All that the right hon. Gentleman has said shows how fully aware are the Government of the need for help for Glamorgan. I am only too willing to look into this matter once more, without, of course, giving any undertaking.

Will the hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. Friend whether he is prepared to receive a deputation of Glamorgan Members to discuss the matter?

I will certainly pass that request to my right hon. Friend.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the number of schemes which have been approved by him is very many more than the number which was approved by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) when he occupied a similar office?

Is the Minister aware that there is probably less road work going on in Glamorgan and in South Wales generally today than at almost any time since 1946? Is it not about time that the much-vaunted road improvement programme was put into effect?

We have committed ourselves to more work today than there has been at any time since before the war.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation why approval has been given for only three out of 66 minor road schemes in the county of Glamorgan; if he is aware of the urgency of the 11 major schemes, details of which have already been sent him; and if he will give further consideration to the council's request for larger sanctions with a view to overtaking arrears.

The allocation that my right hon. Friend is able to make to small road schemes in Glamorgan has to have relation to the funds at his disposal and the many competing claims on them. I know of the urgency of the 11 larger schemes and will bear them in mind, but I regret that we are unable to allocate further funds to Glamorgan at present.

While I accept that basis. will the Minister tell his right hon. Friend that, in view of the highly-industrialised nature of the county of Glamorgan and the serious arrears there, something must be done immediately if we are to maintain a mobile transport system in that part of the country?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what steps he is taking to bring to the knowledge of highway authorities the results of the researches of the Road Research Laboratory of the Department of Scentific and Industrial Research.

The Road Research Laboratory itself, with the encouragement of my Department, takes steps to bring the results of its researches to the knowledge of highway authorities. Our engineers are also in constant touch with the engineers of highway authorities and make it their business to pass on such information to them. An exhibition was held at my suggestion at the Materials and Construction Division of the Road Research Laboratory at Harmondsworth on the 5th, 6th and 7th May at which many chairmen of Highway Authorities and surveyors were able to see demonstrations of new methods.

While I am encouraged by that reply, may I ask the hon. Member whether he appreciates that this research is very valuable and that a small expenditure on it can lead to great economies in road construction? Will he endeavour to pursue the recommendation of the Select Committee and see that this research is encouraged as far as possible?

Yes, Sir. Certainly.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the services which the Road Research Laboratory can give to highway authorities are being limited by the cut in the real value of the grant to the D.S.I.R. which has been imposed since this Government came into office? What is he doing about that?

The grant available to the D.S.I.R. is not the responsibility of my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation when it is anticipated that work will start on the construction of a dual carriageway on the Great Cambridge Road through Edmonton and Enfield.

I expect that work will start before the end of this year on the provision of dual carriageways on a section of the Great Cambridge Road through Edmonton. It is hoped to deal subsequently with the Enfield section.

What does the Minister mean by "subsequently"? Why cannot the work on a whole stretch be commenced at the same time? Why must it be done in two stages, in view of the fact that there has been an increase in the number of fatalities along this road only recently?

There is not enough money available to undertake the whole of the work at the same time.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what steps are being taken to train a sufficient number of helicopter pilots to ensure that they are readily available when required.

Sufficient pilots are available to meet the needs of the impending experimental services, and it will be for the operators to take the necessary steps to obtain helicopter pilots for other services as they need them.

Will the Minister state what support is being given by the Government to the enterprising new scheme at Derby for training helicopter pilots? If he cannot yet make a statement upon something which is being considered, will he at least wish this important training scheme every success?

That is one of the matters being considered at the present time, and so long as it is understood that in this case the wish cannot go further than the thought. I agree with the hon. Gentleman.

Has any contact been made with the Treasury about possible financial support?

I cannot add anything to what I have already said—that this and other projects of this nature are under consideration.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation on what grounds his Department advised the Secretary of State for the Colonies that single-engined helicopters were unsuitable for surveying, spraying and dusting crops, forest fire patrols and for other uses in the Colonies.

No such advice was given. Helicopters are, however, more costly and at present, I think, less suitable than a conventional aircraft for practically all the uses mentioned. Moreover, the operation of single-engined helicopters over rugged terrain involves a risk of a forced landing under conditions which would make search and rescue operations difficult and expensive.

Does not the hon. Member know that a company called Pest Control has done more surveying and spraying of crops in the Colonial Territories than anyone else, and that single-engined helicopters are suitable for this purpose?

If these helicopters are available there is nothing to stop individuals who want to use them from making private contracts for that purpose.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is no rugged terrain between Birmingham and London?

That is not the subject of this Question.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will hold a public inquiry, on a scale comparable to that held about Gatwick Airport, in order to allow interested people and organisations to give their views about the advantage to be gained by reaching Central London more quickly by helicopter as against the disadvantage suffered from extra noise before making irretrievable decisions on the Central London helicopter station.

No, Sir. One of the main advantages of the helicopter is its ability to operate between city centres, but no decisions will be taken on the site ultimately to be selected for the Central London airstop until more experience has been gained of experimental operations.

Will the Minister take into account the fact that, whereas in the case of all the previous main noisemakers, such as trains, trams, and long-distance aeroplanes—

And the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro).

the number of people advantaged by the machine has been roughly comparable to the number disadvantaged, with this device, unless we can be sure that we can shut the noise out of the streets, the number of people disadvantaged may be altogether disproportionate to the very small number who will gain, at the most, an extra half an hour or 40 minutes of time? Ought not there to be an inquiry into this matter before any definite decision is made?

No, Sir. I cannot agree with the hon. Baronet. At the same time, however, I should like to say that my right hon. Friend is very conscious of this problem of noise, and the difficulties which it causes to a large number of individuals. The Government are at the present time carrying out investigations into the problem of noise in the hope that we may be able to reduce it. On the other hand, the feature of the helicopter which distinguishes it from all other forms of transport is its ability to operate between city centres. Unless it is allowed to exploit this characteristic it is obviously useless to continue with its development.

What is the use of developing it if people do not want it?

Before a decision is made and a helicopter station is put in London—if that is the proposal—will some machinery be set up to enable local public opinion to express itself effectively?

I can give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance. He knows as well as I do that one cannot take pieces of land without referring to the local authorities concerned. In answer to the question why we should proceed with the development of the helicopter if people do not want it, I think it is the general view of hon. Members that the development of the helicopter is a matter of the greatest interest to this country.

Without prejudice to the general development of the helicopter, is the hon. Gentleman aware that my right hon. Friend's point was related to more than the opinion of local authorities? The individual citizen has feelings upon this matter. Is he aware that this machine has caused inconvenience within the precincts of Parliament itself? Letters of complaint have been received from the London County Council and the wife of the Archbishop of Canterbury. Is it not necessary to have a sense of proportion about the passion for speed in travel? There is a need for some speed in other things, but are not the Government taking into account the fact that the use of this vehicle is very, very limited, the number of people who will make use of it is very small, and the inconvenience to many people trying to get on with their daily work may be considerable?

I cannot accept the entire implications of the right hon. Gentleman, nor do I believe that he intended that I should accept them all. I have already said that we appreciate the inconvenience that may be caused to the public. I have also said that we are doing our best to overcome it and see whether a type of silencer cannot be fitted to helicopters. At the same time, I would point out that a sense of proportion already exists in the matter. During the last whole week, the movements into the South Bank were, last Thursday, two; last Friday, two; and since then, including today, there have been no movements at all.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that temperamental politicians with Edwardian minds have been content for years that hundreds of thousands of people living near aerodromes should have to put up with much worse noise?

I should not like to enter into an arbitration between the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Gentleman, but I am fortified by knowing that in this matter the hon. Gentleman is my hon. Friend.

I am charmed by the intervention of my hon. Friend, and he will be glad to know that he will get a good show in the "Evening Standard."

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that if he accepts the pleas of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) that will be tantamount to ensuring that technical, scientific aeronautical progress in this respect will pass to the foreigner?

I assure my hon. Friend that I have no intention of being tethered by the right hon. Gentleman opposite.

rose—

Order. This matter has had a very good flight.

As the hon. Gentleman refuses to have any inquiry, I give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is aware that the noise made by helicopters in landing and take-offs would be considerably reduced if rotor stations were built on stilts above surrounding rooftops in city centres; and what consideration has been given to this aspect for future development.

The reduction of helicopter noise by providing elevated air-stops is one of the possibilities we must take into account when considering particular proposals. However, it should not be assumed that the elevation of an air-stop will provide a significant noise reduction in every instance.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that three years ago an experiment was made with a helicopter that came from Paris and landed on the roof of Olympia, and that down at ground level there was no noise distinguishable from the noise of the other traffic, and that, therefore, helicopter stations on stilts above the house tops must be the landing grounds of the future?

I do not think we yet know enough about the performance of helicopters to be absolutely certain about that, but we are taking it into consideration.

In order to offset the noise made by chattering and scratching monkeys, would my hon. Friend undertake to build one of these stations on the top of Transport House?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation under what conditions single-engined helicopters are now considered safe for licensing for passenger services.

The principal condition is that the route selected should permit a safe landing in the event of engine failure, account being taken of the characteristics of the helicopter, the terrain and the general weather conditions.

Will the Minister bear in mind that my constituents read with admiration of the intrepid voyaging by helicopter both of passengers from London airport and of the Minister of Transport and the Chief of the General Staff and that they would much appreciate an opportunity to share in the dangers of this mode of transport? Is he aware that in many places in my constituency excellent landing areas could be provided—just as good as those in the middle of London?

This is not a landing problem but a problem of the amount of water which has to be crossed in order to reach those parts of the hon. Member's constituency. The more speed we can make with our experiments here, the sooner it will be possible for that part of Britain to share in this great new method of transport.

Can the Minister say whether a landing on the River Thames itself would be considered a safe landing?

We propose to conduct these operations with aircraft with flotation gear, and landing in those conditions will be all right.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, in the light of the recent criticism of the report into the accident to a Comet aircraft at Rome in October, 1952, he will revise the investigation procedure in connection with aircraft accidents.

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend has decided to extend the existing criteria of a court investigation to include accidents in which it may appear from the preliminary report of the Chief Inspector that such measure of blame may be attached to an individual as seriously to prejudice his career.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I should like to thank him for that rather satisfactory answer? Will Captain Foote be able to make use of this new proposal?

No, Sir; not directly, because changes of regulations of this sort cannot be made retrospective.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will make a further statement on the future of Renfrew Maintenance Base.

Since my right hon. Friend discussed this question with hon. Members on both sides of the House from Scotland at the beginning of June he has heard the views of the Scottish Advisory Council for Civil Aviation, the Scottish Trades Union Congress General Council, a special sub-committee of the trade union side of the National Joint Council for Civil Air Transport and the Board of British European Airways. B.E.A. is, at the request of my right hon. Friend, arranging a further meeting with the trade unions on the economic implications of their proposal, and we are examining with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland the views expressed by representative organisations on the social and industrial consequences of transferring work from Renfrew to London.

May I assure the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister that every effort they make to keep Renfrew Maintenance Base open will have the warmest support of all interests in Scotland?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what progress is being made in arranging for an air service from Errol Airport.

British European Airways have informed my right hon. Friend that they are confirmed in their opinion that they would not be justified in adding to the losses already incurred in the provision of Scottish air services by including a service to Errol in their network. No independent company has applied to operate a service to Errol.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his answer will cause surprise and dismay in Dundee and Perth? Will he not agree that the figures he gave last week showing an increase in air traffic from the East Coast of Scotland proves that the pessimism of his reply is completely unfounded. And will he consider sympathetically the request being made by the Lord Provosts of Dundee and Perth for a meeting with the Minister on this subject?

The question of running air services from Errol has no relation to the answer given last week. However, my right hon. Friend has been sympathetic in this matter. The advice he got he took very largely from British European Airways Corporation. I know my right hon. Friend would be pleased to meet another deputation from that part of Scotland, but I think it might be better if, in the first place, the delegates went to see Lord Douglas as they said they would do when they last met my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what proposals he has received from British European Airways or private charter companies for improvement of scheduled fare-paying passenger air services between London and the North-West of England, notably to serve Liverpool and industrial South Lancashire, and the North Wales littoral.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what applications he has received for the inauguration of an air service between Speke Airport, Liverpool and London on the same lines as that now providing a service between Ringway Airport, Manchester and London.

None, Sir.

What will my hon. Friend do to amend this state of affairs? Why should Manchester have a regular air service and Liverpool be deprived of one? Is it not a fact that the Liverpool industrial area, Merseyside and North Wales, is of very great importance, and are we to do without an air service between that area and London in perpetuity?

My answer said nothing about in perpetuity. There does not seem to be the same requirement for Liverpool as for Manchester. There is not at Liverpool the number of passengers prepared to travel by this service that there is in the case of Manchester. It is a financial problem and my right hon. Friend cannot direct British European Airways Corporation to operate services that it regards as uneconomic while at the same time urging them to reduce their deficit generally.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that there would be a very wide demand for this service from people who live in the western part of Cheshire, which is very heavily populated?

If that is so, there is nothing to stop an independent company instituting a service.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell us what has happened to all those private air companies which were going to come in and operate services?

Yes, Sir. They are now living a much stronger existence than under the regime of the party opposite. If hon. Gentlemen opposite had still been in power, these companies would not exist at all.

But why do they not operate a service?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what proposals to institute scheduled fare- paying passenger air services between North and South Wales and between Wales and London he has received from British European Airways; and when the schemes will be put into effect.

None, Sir. But authority to operate a passenger service between Wales and London has been conditionally granted to the Welsh Company, Cambrian Air Services Limited.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is a most discouraging reply? Does he know that B.E.A. operates on routes to all parts of the United Kingdom, including the Isle of Man, but excepting Wales?

And Liverpool.

When B.E.A. sustained losses between 1946 and 1950 the Welsh people made their contribution towards those losses. Is not it time that the needs and the rights of Wales should be recognised?

I can only say that my right hon. Friend has no statutory powers to force B.E.A. to run on any route which they feel would be uneconomic.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether Cambrian Airways have sought permission to fly from Cardiff to North Wales and whether permission has been granted?

No, Sir. I cannot add to what I have already said.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the date of the last formal consultation between himself or any authorised official of his Department with the trade unions with regard to the proposed raising of the heavy goods speed limit from 20 to 30 miles per hour.

We have had no formal consultations with the trade unions on this matter, nor has my right hon. Friend authorised any, but my right hon. Friend has frequently taken informal soundings.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Labour undertook to hold conversations with those trade unions who did not approve or support the removal of this speed limit? A statement was given to that effect more than a year ago. In view of the fact that no conversations have since taken place, is it not evident that the whole matter has now stagnated?

This is not a matter in which the Government are primarily concerned. Until the employers and the trade unions are in agreement about the labour conditions which would apply to the drivers if a change were made in the maximum speed limit, it would be unwise to make any change.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary be good enough to tell the House, in his own words, precisely what is the difference between formal consultations and informal soundings?

Using my own words, I should say that it is the difference between a friendly chat and formal negotiations.

With the 1922 Committee?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he has now completed his consideration of proposals and suggestions, including those of the Thesiger Committee in regard to amendment of the law relating to conveyance of private parties upon special occasions; and whether he will make a statement.

I regret I am not in a position to add to what my right hon. Friend said in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Slater) last Wednesday.

May we have a statement before Christmas, as this matter has now been going on for a couple of years? May I have an assurance that this is one more transport matter which will not be allowed to stagnate?

My right hon. Friend promised in the answer to which I have referred to introduce this legislation at the earliest opportunity which the Parliamentary time-table permits.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the main reasons for the fact that £2 million is still owing to hauliers as compensation for nationalisation; and when he expects it will be paid.

The amounts payable have yet to be agreed between the British Transport Commission and the transferors, or to be determined or confirmed by the Transport Arbitration Tribunal, as required by the Transport Act, 1947. I cannot say when the last payment will be made, but it will be as soon as the requirements of the Act have been fulfilled.

In view of the fact that many of these hauliers may want to buy their assets back, is this not a most unfortunate situation? If the Government cannot make a rapid payment of this money, cannot they devise some way of allowing these men credit with which they might be able to buy back the lorries which were originally theirs?

I am afraid that there is no power under present legislation which enables my right hon. Friend to do that.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if his regulations permit a haulier, anxious to buy back assets previously nationalised, to offer in payment his outstanding rights to compensation for nationalisation.

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend has no power to make such regulations.

Could the Minister give any idea how many of these men are willing to buy back their assets and are being prevented from doing so by the fact that the Government have not paid them?

No, Sir. I am afraid that it would be impossible to obtain that figure.

Is not all the evidence so far to the effect that those persons who were bought out do not wish to buy themselves back into the industry? Have not the sales been so small that they show that these men have decided not to return?

Quite a considerable number have succeeded in buying themselves back.

Following the point made by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), is it not possible under the present law to allow a simple set-off of the one transaction against the other?

No, Sir, I fear not. Under the 1947 Act a special procedure is provided. Those who had their property nationalised had to accept transport stock in lieu. In the case of the purchase of lorries under the 1953 Act, no provision is made for any set-off or for anything except cash payments.

Have not most of the people concerned here received substantial payments on account? Is not the matter in dispute what are frequently regarded as the extravagant claims to be met and whether they could be reduced?

I certainly could not accept the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. It is quite impossible to generalise about the large number of claims which are outstanding.

Have they not had payment on account?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is aware that the number of commercial vehicles operating in the district of Coventry has been reduced by the removal of British Road Services vehicles to other parts of the country, following purchase under the disposal scheme; and if he will make an investigation into the present position in the Midlands area.

I understand that of the limited number of vehicles offered for sale in the Coventry district, 29 have been sold and only a few of these will be based outside the district. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that the British Transport Commission are making their arrangements in this area with full regard to their duty to do so without avoidable disturbance of the transport system.

If I send the hon. Member some information from Coventry which seems to be in conflict with his statement, is he prepared to look into the matter? We think that this is affecting commercial transport in that area.

We will certainly look into it and do anything we can to facilitate matters.

How is it that some vehicles can be based outside the area when it is required under the Act that they should operate from the same bases and carry on precisely the same service? That assurance was given while the Bill was passing through the House—that these services would be continued and that the licensing authority would see that they were not removed from their bases.

It is a question of how far they are removed. It is not obligatory under the Act for the purchaser to employ them in exactly the same places whenever they do on to the road.