asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is now in a position to make a statement on legislation to increase the grants payable for the building of new trawlers.

I cannot add to the reply I gave my hon. Friend on 26th January.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that while, so far as Aberdeen is concerned, a distinguished past member of the White Fish Authority has said that thirty-five new trawlers are to be built, nevertheless, the high price of building today is a very great deterrent? Does my right hon. Friend not think that it is time to consider increasing the grant available and reducing the percentage of the loan?

I do agree that the present costs of building are very high, but I believe that the progress made with this scheme since its inception has been very satisfactory, and there is the limiting factor that at present yards are filled for a period of between one and two years, so that I do not think that at the present time we could force the pace very much more.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware of the need for the replacement of old and out-of-date fishing trawlers by new ones and of the inability of many trawler owners to replace such trawlers owing to present high shipbuilding costs; and if he will make a statement of his plans for legislation designed to assist such owners by grants and loans and of his plans generally for assisting in the renovation and building of our fishing fleets where necessary.

Under the Grants and Loans Scheme introduced in 1953, 111 new trawlers have been approved and 40 of them are already fishing. As to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) on 26th January.

Does the Minister realise the importance of timing the replacements to synchronise with or even precede the scrapping at the rate of at least one for one, as it is obvious that otherwise the fleet will diminish, with loss to everybody concerned?

The importance of the aspect which the hon. and learned Member has mentioned, is, of course, very much in our minds. It is one of the reasons for the fact that we have the present white fish subsidy. As to the second part of the Question, I have already said that I do not think that we can regard the progress to date as anything other than satisfactory. A total of 111 new trawlers has been approved, 40 have been built and are already fishing, and I understand that another 30 are likely to be completed during the present year.

When my right hon. Friend reviews the subsidy scheme which is due to end at the end of July, will he bear in mind the importance of having the right proportion of boats scrapped, at the present high price of scrap, and of boats which it is possible to build when berths are full? Will he, therefore, make sure that the subsidy for steam vessels is continued during that period?

I will certainly bear in mind the point which my hon. Friend has made.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware of the decline in the number of stocks of bees kept in Hampshire and elsewhere during recent years, with a consequent loss of food production; and whether he will take action to encourage the keeping of bees.

I am aware that the number of stocks of bees kept in Hampshire and elsewhere has declined in recent years, but there is no evidence of any appreciable direct or indirect loss of food production which can be attributed to this cause. I already take action to encourage bee-keepers through our advisory and information service, and by exercising my powers to safeguard the health of bees.

Is it not the case that the number of stocks kept in Hampshire, as shown by the county executive committee's figures, has declined by 50 per cent.? Does that not indicate that this is a serious matter, involving such loss of honey production? Would it not be advisable to call a conference to examine the various causes which have contributed to this decline?

The figures I have do not indicate such a disastrous fall as my hon. Friend has mentioned. In Hampshire the numbers fell from 14,500 to 13,500 between 1952 and 1955. The main cause was the exceptionally bad weather we had three seasons running.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what decision has been reached in respect to the banning of dyed kippers on health grounds.

I would refer the hon. Member to the replies I gave him on 9th and 27th February.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why it is that, despite the evidence which is available, people are still having to buy kippers stained golden brown in colour by coal-tar dye? Is it not about time that precautions were taken to give people proper kippers?

I explained to the hon. Gentleman that this matter is involved in all the questions which arise out of the Report and of the representations that I have received recently, and that I do not feel that it would be right to decide the question of colouring matter for kippers in advance of deciding all the other questions that have to be considered. I have said that I hope to make a statement within about two months.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware that the price cocoa manufacturers have been paying for beans from West Africa has dropped from 4s. 8d. to 2s. 3d. a lb. but that this reduction has not yet been passed on to shoppers; and if he will reimpose price control on this commodity in order to prevent excessive charges being made for distribution.

The prices quoted by the hon. Member are not representative. The annual average price per lb. of imported West African cocoa was 3s. 3¼d. in 1954 and 2s. 11¼d. in 1955. The retail prices of a number of brands of chocolate have recently been reduced. The answer to the last part of the question is "No, Sir."

Is the Minister aware that the price of cocoa to the consumer has not been reduced? Is he further aware that the price was increased in July, 1954, when the price of cocoa beans reached its maximum; and does he not think that the customers should have the benefit of the reduction in the price of the raw material, in view of the fact that they have had to bear the increase?

I think that the hon. Lady will find that when the price of cocoa increased rapidly the prices of the finished product were not increased in anything like the same proportion as the price of the raw material.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is now in a position to make a statement concerning the talks on the Anglo-Danish bacon agreement resumed at the Ministry of Agriculture on 27th February.

I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Board of Trade on 27th February last.

Yes, but is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this is a vicious circle? Is he aware that the Minister of State, Board of Trade, said that Questions referring to food prices should be addressed to the right hon. Gentleman? By how much does the right hon. Gentleman expect this tariff to increase the price of bacon to the consumer?

It is very difficult to say when one is looking nine months or so ahead. If this were happening tomorrow, I should not expect it to have any appreciable effect on the price of bacon to the consumer, but it is difficult to say whether the cost of the tariff will be paid by the consumer or the importer, or in what proportion by either, because it all depends on the relative strength of the market at the time.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this is a thoroughly unsatisfactory reply? We know that this is not going to happen tomorrow, but in October. Surely the right hon. Gentleman ought to know what effect it will have on retail prices and be able to inform the House, otherwise he was running a grave risk in coming to this thoroughly unsatisfactory agreement.

If the hon. Gentleman can tell me what the strength of the market will be in October, I might then be able to give an indication of the effect of the tariff.

Has the right hon. Gentleman not forgotten Protectionist theories, and will he tell us what is the purpose of the tariff?

I am quite satisfied, as between the various alternatives, that the proposal to have a tariff is one which is in the best interests of the country and, I believe, in the long run, of the consumer.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how nearly the wholesale market prices for English bacon have approached those for Danish bacon in the past year; and if he will consider requiring the branding of English bacon according to grade so that consumers may recognise the best quality.

For about four months during the past year there was no difference in the wholesale price quotations of English and Danish bacon. For the purpose of first-hand sales whole bacon sides, both English and imported, are graded according to external fat measurements. A significant factor so far as the consumer is concerned is the proportion of lean, and this cannot be accurately assessed until the bacon is cut.

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that there has been a marked improvement in the quality of British bacon in the last year or two, and will he say, in answer to the second part of the Question, on which he has not given us any advice, whether it is possible to let the housewife know the quality of British bacon which she is buying?

As regards the first part of the supplementary question, I agree that there has been a notable increase in the average quality of home-produced bacon. As to the second part of the question, the problem is that quality from the point of view of the consumer cannot really be assessed until the whole side of the bacon is cut. That is the difficulty in marking it in a way which would indicate quality to the consumer before it is cut.

is the Minister aware that whilst there may have been an improvement in quality, there has been a decided increase in the price of bacon over the past two years, and is he prepared to look at that again?

I do not think that bacon is at all bad value at its present price.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what effect he estimates that the bacon agreement with Denmark will have on the production of bacon by the British farmer.

I do not think it likely that the new arrangements governing the import of bacon will have any substantial effect on the production of pigs by the British farmer which is dependent on a number of factors including in particular the guarantee provided under the Agriculture Act, 1947.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it will mean less bacon at an increased price?

I very much hope not.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will state the date, place and agenda of the latest meeting of the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea; if he will make available a report of its proceedings and conclusions; and when and where the next meeting of that council will be held.

From 21st October to 2nd November, 1955, at Copenhagen, when about 70 papers dealing with different aspects of fishery research were considered. The Council will be publishing a report of the meeting as is its custom. The next meeting will be held at Copenhagen in October this year.

Would the right hon. Gentleman make these documents available in the Library, please?

I will go beyond that. I will send to the hon. and learned Member a copy of the report when it is issued, if he will promise me that he will read it. Even without that promise, I shall send it.

Does the Minister realise that the number of Questions which I put to him on this subject is evidence that I do read the documents?

I have no doubt whatever that the hon. and learned Member will read this report.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what information he has from the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea as to the growth or diminution of the established Arctic fishing area; as to the hydrographic conditions in the sea that govern the shoaling and migration of fish; and as to whether the disappearance of a commercial species of fish from one area leads to its re-appearance or replacement in another area of the sea.

Information from the Council indicates no recent changes in the Arctic fishing area except for a slight extension to the west of Greenland. The reports on hydrographic conditions disclose various features, such as a rise in the average temperature of the North Sea in recent years, which may at times modify traditional patterns in the migratory and shoaling behaviour of fish. I am advised that a general answer could not be given on present scientific information to the last part of the Question.

While thanking the Minister for that Answer, may I ask whether he realises that over-fishing, scientific development and international competition have made more necessary than ever the work of this very important Council?

I agree with that. At any time I shall be glad to arrange for the hon. and learned Member to go on one of my fisheries research vessels—[Laughter]—for a six months' visit to the Arctic.

Is the Minister aware that I have been hoping for that invitation for a long time, and that I shall be very glad to accept it?

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many visits were paid by his inspectors, in 1955, to knackeries and horse-slaughterhouses; what proportion of the licensed premises this constitutes; and what visit has been paid to, and what orders have been made concerning, a slaughterhouse in London, N.15, the name of which has been supplied to him.

Forty-four visits were made to knackers' yards and ten to horse-slaughterhouses. There are I understand now only about twenty-five slaughterhouses used for horses and very few knackers' yards in which horses are slaughtered in appreciable numbers. The particular slaughterhouse in question was visited on 3rd January, 1956, by an officer of my Department. He found a number of defects, which he pointed out to the local authority concerned. I am informed by the local authority that the manager of the premises has already remedied some of these and has promised to remedy the others.

But is not this a notorious slaughterhouse which was unfavourably commented upon by the Northumberland Committee as long ago as 1950? Is the Minister going to wink at these continued contraventions of the law? Is it not time that we had one really good prosecution in respect of some notorious slaughterhouse like this, which would lead to the rest being cleaned up overnight?

It is open to anyone to institute proceedings. As to the hon. Member's statement that this is a notoriously bad slaughterhouse, I will look into that point.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will now announce changes in the Slaughter of Animals (Prevention of Cruelty) Regulations, 1954, so as to vary the powers of enforcement in cases where local authorities are owners of the slaughterhouses.

I am reviewing the whole question of enforcement of these Regulations and will bear in mind especially cases of the kind to which the hon. Member refers.

But is the Minister not aware that he said that about three weeks ago? Can he not yet say what amendments he can make to these Regulations? Is it not impossible for people to complain about these slaughterhouses which are owned by local authorities when they are told, "Nobody can prosecute because we enforce the law"? Is it not a totally stupid position, and ought not the Minister to make up his mind quickly?

I am afraid that I cannot make up my mind quickly: this is an extremely complicated matter, but it is open to anyone to institute proceedings.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many bulls were exported during 1955 to the North and South American continents; and what proportion were valued at less than £300 excluding the cost of freight.

The total was 315. Information is not available showing the individual value of all the bulls but the indications are that the number valued at less than £300 was very small.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the last part of his Answer is disappointing, and that there is a potentially large market for worthwhile bulls at commercial prices in large parts of both continents of America, particularly those troubled by dwarfism? Will he see whether it cannot be made more widely known that good bulls are obtainable from this country at other than fancy prices?

I am interested in what my hon. Friend has said, and I hope it will receive publicity. I will certainly do what I can to see that it gets publicity.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will take steps to encourage importers to buy more wheat from Australia and other Commonwealth countries and less from Argentina and other foreign countries.

Commonwealth countries supply the greater part of our imported wheat, and we hope they will continue to maintain their traditional place in our market. So long as they are competitive, there is no reason why they should not do so.

Has my right hon. Friend seen the report of the speech made by the Australian Trade Minister in which he said that we were impairing Australia's opportunities to sell her food products in our market, and has he any comment to make on that?

I saw the report of the speech, but I do not think that the present figures indicate such a depressing position as that.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what proportions of supplies of shell eggs consumed in 1955 and 1938 were home-produced; and what estimate he has made of the saving in foreign currency at current market prices for eggs which have been obtained through increased home production.

In 1955, 90·6 per cent. of supplies of eggs were home-produced compared with 66·5 per cent. in 1938. The cost of the increased home production of eggs over and above the production in 1938 valued at the average 1955 c.i.f. price for imported eggs would be about £40 million, but it is not possible to estimate the net saving of foreign currency resulting.

When my right hon. Friend next has an opportunity, will he tell the poultry industry how much we all appreciate this great help it is giving towards our balance of payments?

Yes, I think that things have been going very well indeed, and the poultry industry is showing that it is keeping itself well up to date.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why we are consuming far fewer eggs now than we were in 1950?

I am not sure that this is so. If it is, I think it is only marginal. One explanation is that there is such a wide variety of foodstuffs available that the consumer has a very free choice.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether his attention has been called to the continued sale to housewives of old stocks of canned milk sold by his Department for animal feeding only; and whether he will now take steps to enforce the condition of sale upon purchasers that these supplies should only be sold for animal feeding and follow this up by stamping all tins with the words, "Not for human consumption."

Small quantities of defective canned milk are sold for animal feedingstuffs to approved buyers who give specific undertakings to my Department. The labels are removed. The disposal of the Ministry's commercial stocks of canned milk has almost been completed.

Is the Minister aware that unscrupulous traders who have received supplies of this sub-standard milk are hawking them round the shops at this moment? Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that labels have been printed and placed on these tins which are being sold to consumers at the full price, and that therefore illicit high prices are being charged? Further, will the Minister reply to the last part of the Question where I suggest that the tins might be stamped "Not for human consumption"?

To reply to the first part of the question, there has been some abuse, but a great deal of care has been taken to avoid any repetition of such action by unscrupulous traders. In answer to the second part of the question, I would say that to all intents and purposes the disposal of that product has now been completed; otherwise I would gladly consider the possibility of marking the tins in addition to stripping off the existing labels,

In cases where there has been abuse, have there been any prosecutions?

That is a difficult matter. We can only proceed by civil action, and there we should have to prove that the Ministry had suffered damage. However, the question is under consideration and we have taken what I think is the most effective action of all, to make sure that a trader who has once been guilty of an abuse of that kind does not have the chance of getting any further supplies of this product.

But is it not a criminal offence to sell these unfit commodities which are known to be unfit? The Minister speaks of civil proceedings to recover moneys on behalf of the Ministry, but surely a criminal offence is committed here which can be rendered the subject of prosecution in the magistrates' courts?

My advice is to the contrary, namely, that it would only be a breach of an agreement signed at the time my Department disposed of the milk.

May I ask the Minister whether it is not possible for the local medical officer of health to take steps to protect consumers from this kind of thing, and whether prosecutions could not be brought by the local authorities under the Food and Drugs Act?

I understand that in no case to date has there been evidence that this technically defective milk was unsafe for human consumption.

Ask Stoke about it.

In view of the disquiet that I am sure will be created by the replies of the right hon. Gentleman, will he look into the matter again to see whether there is provision for prosecution, and, if so, that his Department resorts to it?

I am looking into that point, and the advice I have received I have given to the House, but I repeat that in no case to date has there been any evidence that this defective milk would be injurious in the case of human consumption.

In view of the unsatisfactory Answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what financial effect he estimates the 10 per cent, import duty on Danish bacon will have on the amount of the subsidy for home pig production.

The amount of the pig subsidy will depend upon the difference between the guaranteed price and market prices which are determined by a number of factors, and it is impossible to isolate the effect of the duty.

Is it not clear that the Government will get a double rake-off—£4 million or £5 million by way of import duty to make up for the profits they have been earning on Danish bacon imports up to now, and an equivalent amount in cutting the home-bacon subsidy to preserve the existing pattern, which is what the Government have promised to do under the agreement? Is not this in the nature of sharp practice on the part of the Government at the expense of the consumer?

No, I cannot agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman in either part of his Question. The results are nothing like as simple as that. There is no question of a double rake-off, not even a certainty of one rake-off. As to the other part of his Question, I have said already that there is no reason to assume that there will necessarily be any additional burden on the consumers.

Will my right hon. Friend say when the report on the marketing of home-produced pigs will be available?

That is rather a different Question, but I said recently that I would not expect it for two or three months from the present time.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what progress has been made in the establishment of pig progeny testing stations to select the most economical strains for high-grade bacon production; and when the projected stations will now be ready for use by pig breeders.

All five sites have been chosen and tenders have been invited for building the first station at Selby, Yorkshire. This should be ready for use early in 1957 and the remaining four shortly afterwards.

Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that he is pushing ahead as fast as possible with the establishment of the pig progeny testing stations so that we can get nearer the Danes in efficiency in pig production, for this is a key point in that progress?

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend; it is absolutely a key point. I can assure him that no one is more anxious than I am to have the pig progeny testing stations in working order at the very earliest possible moment.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what percentage of bacon, pork, eggs, beef, mutton, and lamb, respectively, were home-produced in 1938 and 1955; from which countries the balance was imported; and what percentage of the total was from each country.

As the Answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Does my right hon. Friend anticipate any great increase in Argentine beef supplies during the next two or three years?

I should say that if the present policies which the Argentine Government have announced continue we can expect increasing quantities, particularly of chilled beef, from the Argentine.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what percentage of apples, pears, tomatoes, cucumbers, lettuce, peas, broad, French, or dwarf beans, carrots, and potatoes, respectively, were home-produced in 1938 and 1955; from which countries the balance was imported; and what percentage of the total was from each country.

I am having these figures extracted and will circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT as soon as possible.

I appreciate that, but will my right hon. Friend assure the House that he will use his watchful eye to see that none of these commodities is imported just at a time when the English product is coming to its peak?

I will use both of my watchful eyes for the purpose mentioned by my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware of the large areas of arable land being flooded through mining subsidence; and whether he will take action to save the land by drainage.

I am aware that certain areas of agricultural land are subject to flooding as a result of mining subsidence. Drainage authorities have done something to improve conditions, but as the hon. Member will be aware, this is but one aspect of the complicated problem to which mining subsidence gives rise, and which is at present under consideration by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the drainage authorities to see if they can speed up the warping of good arable land so that it can be brought back into cultivation?

The whole question is a most difficult one. The drainage authorities have many responsibilities, and this is only one aspect of them. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the drainage authorities are largely autonomous bodies. Some of them have helped, but I think the problem is a wider one than their responsibilities allow for.

asked the Minister of Health, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what progress has been made in experiments to prevent or cure the common cold; and what action is contemplated in this respect in the near future.

Some progress has been made in recent years in research on the common cold, but as yet no means has been discovered by which the condition can be prevented or cured. The Medical Research Council is continuing, in cooperation with my Department, its efforts to solve this difficult problem.

In view of the length of the experiments and the cost entailed, cannot the Minister give people like myself—I have had a cold for three weeks and cannot lose it—any advice on how to get rid of colds?

I am told that one very good way is to stay away from crowded places.

Can the Minister tell the House the name of the tablet which he is sucking?

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have not had a cold for ten years because I take snuff?

It might be snuff or it might be gin—I do not know.

Is the Minister aware that a very good way to avoid colds is to have a swim in Hampstead Pond every morning?

asked the Minister of Health, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what progress has been made by the Medical Research Council in its experiments into the effect of engine exhaust fumes on people in built-up areas; in what towns this has taken place; and what work has been carried out in taking blood estimations of persons exposed to vehicle fumes for long periods.

asked the Minister of Health, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what are the results and findings of the most recent investigations of the Statistical Research Unit of the Medical Research Council into the effect of diesel fumes on lung cancer.

The Medical Research Council is continuing its investigations of the effect of atmospheric pollution, including that from vehicle exhaust fumes, on health. These investigations are being undertaken mainly in London, but also in other cities, including Birmingham, Manchester and Sheffield. Tests of the amount of carbon monoxide in the blood were recently carried out on a number of men exposed to vehicle exhaust fumes in city streets; the amounts found to be present were below the level regarded as dangerous.

Can the Minister say whether any facts have yet been brought out about the dangers from the exhausts of diesel engines?

Nothing has yet been established on that point.

Can my right hon. Friend reconcile his answer with the letter of 12th December from Dr. Doll, a copy of which I sent him, one paragraph of which reads:

" On more general grounds, one can be fairly confident that the recent great increase in mortality from lung cancer has not been due to diesel fumes, since the increase in lung cancer has been almost contemporaneous with the increase in the use of diesel engines…"?

Dr. Doll is a member of a research unit of the Medical Research Council and is an accepted authority on this subject. His opinion, however, has not yet been officially accepted.

Will the right hon. Gentleman encourage further investigation into the subject in view of the general public anxiety about it? Can he also give some advice to the Minister of Housing and Local Government in view of the passage of the Clean Air Bill? Also, might I invite the right hon. Gentleman to the next sitting of the Standing Committee dealing with the Clean Air Bill?

The investigations are proceeding. It is a matter of very great importance, but there are a number of other factors which, equally, are carcinogenic.

asked the Minister of Health, as representing the Lord President of the Council, if he will make a statement on the most recent results of the researches into lung cancer.

As has already been announced, the Medical Research Council is at present studying the chemistry of tobacco smoke in order to determine whether there are constituents which may have the effect of producing cancer of the lung: other factors such as atmospheric pollution, are also being studied. Benzpyrene, a substance known to be carcinogenic, has been isolated in minute quantities both from cigarette smoke and from polluted atmosphere, but it has not been established whether this agent is one of the causes of cancer of the lung.

As one who smokes cigarettes and who has some fear of getting lung cancer in due course, can my right hon. Friend tell me whether he thinks that in the foreseeable future, the next year or two, it will be possible to isolate an element such as saltpetre or benzpyrene and trace whether that is or is not the cause of lung cancer?

It is quite impossible to make forecasts about the progress of research. What is absolutely clear is that benzpyrene has been shown to be carcinogenic to animals and must be assumed to be carcinogenic to men. But it is possible to get benzpyrene, not only out of tobacco smoke, but out of burning wood and cellulose, and also by burning both petrol and diesel oil.

Since the ratio of liability to lung cancer of people who live in clean air, the country dwellers, compared with those who live in really polluted air, the town dwellers, is only one to two whereas the ratio of excessive smokers to non-smokers is fifty to one, is that not sufficient evidence, for the time being, at least to warn people against the dangers of excessive smoking?

The present Minister of Labour said last year that what has been shown was that there was a causal connection between smoking and lung cancer. That we know. Therefore, any wise hon. Member who is smoking to excess would be well advised to cease doing so.

Has not the time now come to give more information on this subject to the general public as it is, after all, largely a question of health education?

In these matters, I must take the advice of bodies set up to advise me on these problems, and I answered a Question on that matter last week.

Is it not a fact that the Minister's Advisory Committee has gone on record as saying that the Minister of Health should at regular intervals give advice on this question of excessive cigarette smoking? Why does the Minister not take that advice?

I answered a Question on that subject last week. I think that the Advisory Committee is meeting again next week.

asked the Minister of Health how many mentally-defective children are waiting for a place in a suitable institution in Essex; and the average time of waiting.

One hundred and seventy-three on 1st January, 1956. The average waiting time for children during 1955 was approximately two and a half years.

Will my hon. Friend please do everything possible to reduce the long wait because of the tremendous suffering which it often causes to the families concerned?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that until two years ago there was no new hospital building, and that it takes some time for new buildings to be erected. There are 108 additional beds for mentally-defective children nearing completion at South Ockenden Hospital, and it is hoped that a further 80 beds will be provided as part of the 1957–58 building programme, but, as my hon. Friend knows, the turnover in mental deficiency homes for children is, unfortunately, practically negligible.

On a point of order. Is it in order, Mr. Speaker, for an hon. Member to be reading a newspaper in the Chamber?

No, it is not in order.

Can the hon. Lady say whether the two and a half years' waiting period reflects the position all over the country, or is the position in Essex exceptional.

Essex is one of the counties which are not so well off and which have long waiting lists.

Is the hon. Lady aware that there is a need for beds in all parts of the country? In view of recent cases in which patients have been found fit for discharge, is it not time for an inquiry into our hospitals for mental defectives, in which are detained many people who ought to be discharged to make room for others?

With regard to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, he should await the results of the Report of the Royal Commission on Mental Health. With regard to the first part, it is because we recognised the need that there are 6,000 beds in the pipeline.

Miss Burton.

Might I ask the Parliamentary Secretary what a mental bed in a pipeline is?

The answer to that question will have to be deferred because I have called the next Question.

asked the Minister of Health if he will state, to the latest convenient date, the average sum allowed for food per patient's diet day, in mental hospitals and mental deficiency establishments, respectively, in the area of the South-West Regional Hospital Board; and similar figures for the country as a whole.

As has been previously explained to the hon. Member there is no fixed average diet allowance per patient. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the relevant average weekly cost of provisions per person fed in 1954–55.

Cannot the hon. Lady give the figures now, as only two figures are asked for, and they must be available? Can she say if it is not the case that the average payment per day for patients' food is very little more than it was three or four years ago, although the cost of food has increased by about one-fifth?

May I clear up one point for the hon. Member? Until two years ago the returns for feeding patients were based on cost per patient bed, and therefore included the staff feeding. Because we felt that, though necessary for computing the price of beds, that was inaccurate in relation to the cost of food per patient, the hon. Gentleman will find that about two years ago the analysis was given as cost per patient fed and therefore, though the figures look lower, in fact they are not.

Will not the hon. Lady give the figures for which I ask? They are available.

There are four figures. For the hospitals in the South West Regional Area the figures are: mental hospitals, 16s. 9d.; mental deficiency hospitals, 15s. 9d. For all regional areas the figures are 16s. 11d. and 16s. 2d.

asked the Minister of Health what estimate he has made of the number of patients, aged 65 years and over, now in mental hospitals who would, subject to decertification where necessary, be suitable for transfer to long-stay annexes.

No precise estimate has been made.

Is the hon. Lady aware that a large number of elderly patients in mental hospitals have been found suitable for transfer to long-stay annexes; that, in other words, they should not be in mental hospitals at all? Will she ask her right hon. Friend to have regard to that, when planning further mental hospitals or institutions, because we want people to be in proper kinds of accommodation and not in mental hospitals when they ought not to be there?

I agree with what the hon. Member says. It is the policy of my right hon. Friend to encourage long-stay annexes linked with mental or general hospitals for persons who are suffering from mental infirmity due to old age and who do not require attention. In fact, 1,530 such beds have already been provided. It is our policy to do that in the future so far as possible. But I think it must also be taken into account that for existing old people, many of whom are aged over 70 and some over 80, it would be a very real hardship to uproot them and move them now. It must be a policy more for the future.

asked the Minister of Health what percentage of all hospital beds in England and Wales are used for mental and mentally-deficient patients; and, in 1954–55, what proportion of the total capital expenditure on hospitals, and of total hospital expenditure, was allocated to mental and mental-deficiency hospitals.

About 43 per cent., 25 per cent. and 20 per cent.

Does not this reply indicate that far too small a proportion, particularly of capital expenditure, in relation to the number of patients is going to the mental hospitals out of the funds available to regional hospital boards? Will not the hon. Lady ask her right hon. Friend to make representations to the regional boards to see that there is a more equitable distribution of funds to mental hospitals and mental deficiency institutions?

There has already been a substantial increase during the past three years. The figure for mental hospitals for the years up to 1954 was only 10 per cent. and is now 16 per cent. It was 6 per cent. and is now 9 per cent. for mental-defective hospitals. I think it fair to point out that as a result of this increase there are 4.470 mental deficiency beds in the programme now under way and 1,180 for the mentally sick, which is more of an advance than in the previous programme.

Would not the hon. Lady agree that this increase—welcome as it is, though small—was only the result of the guidance given by the Minister to help the regional boards, and does not she think that the time has arrived for the Minister to advise a higher percentage to the regional boards for the future?

If one considers it on the basis of 6,000 beds in the programme of new hospital building, it is a very fair slice of the total building programme.

Does not the hon. Lady realise that even a large percentage of the miserably small total capital expenditure is still thoroughly unsatisfactory for these purposes?

It is vastly more than the hon. Gentleman and his party ever did.

No.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the farm which adjoins the Towers Hospital, Leicester, cost the Leicester City Council about £18,000 and that farm stock, worth a further £10,000, was also taken from the city; and if he will consider this before making a decision in regard to the disposal or retention of the farm and the stock.

Yes, Sir.

In view of the fact that this farm was taken over without any compensation at all, will the Minister say what changes, if any, which have taken place in the use of the farm have encouraged or discouraged him from taking it over now?

I dealt with this matter last week. No decision has yet been reached about whether this farm should go on or not.

May I ask the Minister whether in these circumstances, if he decides to relinquish the farm, he will give it back to the Leicester City Council, who paid for it in the first instance, because the Council is primarily entitled to the farm?

It depends on the wording of the National Health Service Act. As the time has now passed for it being given back free, some financial adjustment will have to be made.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that some farm employees at the Towers Hospital, Leicester, farm, have worked there from fifteen to twenty years; and if, in order to prevent hardship, he will have regard to their interests when considering any step to dispose of the farm.

Farm workers who lose their employment as a result of my review of hospital farming activities are entitled to claim compensation under the appropriate Regulations.

In those circumstances, will the Minister say whether their rate of pension will be the same if the farm is taken over as it would be were the farm not taken over? If not, will he taken into consideration the fact that this was one of the factors which would have been contemplated by the council at the time it took these people into employment?

The compensation they receive is governed by the National Health Service (Transfer of Officers and Compensation) Regulations, 1948.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the extravagant claims made by some toothpaste manufacturers and of the concern felt by the British Dental Association; and whether, as such claims are undermining a great deal of the oral health teaching now being given, he will set up a committee to investigate the matter.

I am aware that some toothpaste manufacturers have sometimes made extravagant claims. I do not consider that another committee is required. I have my Standing Dental Advisory Committtee to advise me on these and other dental problems.

While I admit not being greatly concerned about the Committee, may I ask whether the Minister is not aware that manufacturers of toothpaste who have been reasonable about claims for their products have become increasingly alarmed at the growing exploitation and profits made by less scrupulous manufacturers? Will he be prepared to consider that it is quite wrong that such advertisements should try to beguile people into thinking that toothpaste will cure decay when there is no evidence to that effect?

The British Dental Association has made that absolutely clear in a recent publication. Legislation for the control of advertisements is a matter for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.

Is the Minister aware that only about half the people in Britain ever clean their teeth? Is it not conducive to health to advertise advice to many more to do so?

I was not aware of the first part of that supplementary Question. The answer to the second part is, "Yes."

asked the Minister of Health (1) in view of the fact that in most cases pneumoconiosis develops very slowly among mine workers and other workers exposed by inhalation of noxious dusts and that superadded infection by tuberculosis causes rapid and progressive deterioration, what action he proposes to take to protect such workers from tuberculosis;

(2) in view of the fact that the aggregate rates of suspension because of pneumoconiosis associated with tuberculosis is higher in the north Staffordshire coalfields than in any other in Great Britain and, in view of the danger of infection to other miners, if he will take special steps, in consultation with the Minister of Fuel and Power, to eradicate tuberculosis from all who work in the mining industry.

I refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him on 27th February. There are already adequate hospital facilities available in the area for miners and others suffering from tuberculosis.

That really does not answer either of the two Questions; perhaps I have expressed them badly. Is the hon. Lady aware that the best-informed opinion, for example that of Dr. Fletcher who recently lectured on this matter in America, is that, given the suppression and eradication of tuberculosis in the pits, we can get rid of pneumoconiosis as a danger to the miners once and for all within a short time, say five years? What will her Department do to see that men are mass X-rayed at the pit-heads in North Staffordshire as they have been in South Wales?

All new entrants to coal mines in South Wales and new entrants up to twenty-one years of age elsewhere are statutorily required to be medically examined. By the end of the year, it is hoped that arrangements will be complete for all new entrants to be examined radiologically. There has been an increase of mass miniature radiography units, and we have no evidence of lack of response to any requests for pit-head visits.

Again the hon. Lady is somewhat off the beam. Only 25 per cent. of miners in this area have been mass X-rayed, as compared with 90 per cent. of, say, rubber workers. Is she not aware that it is tuberculosis which causes the crippling form of pneumoconiosis and that unless we clean the pits of tubercule we shall not get anywhere?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that any requests for further visits of the mass-radiography units to these areas will be favourably considered. The programme is generally made up months in advance, but everything will be done to meet such requests.

Does that mean that some pit managements are not forthcoming in asking for such visits of mass-radiography units?

To my knowledge, no requests have been refused, but I should not like to commit myself without further investigation.