asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now decided to take action to keep spring-clip knives out of the hands of young persons ; and if he will immediately introduce legislation to make the sale, loan or gift of such knives to young persons illegal.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the outcome of his consultations regarding the prohibition of the import of flick knives from Italy.

While I agree that it is desirable to keep spring-clip knives out of the hands of young persons, I do not consider that this object could best be achieved by legislation of the kind suggested by the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Janner). My right hon Friend the President of the Board of Trade and I are in consultation with the representative trade associations about the possibility of cutting off the supply of these knives, whether imported or otherwise, by voluntary action on the part of traders.

Is not the right hon, and gallant Gentleman aware that there has been considerable trouble already? Is he going to wait until there are further murders by means of these knives before doing something practical? Can he tell the House when he is likely to get some reply from the associations to which he has referred the matter?

Consultations have been going on and, up to date, have been very satisfactory. Incidentally, I share the hon. Member's views about the whole of this knives question, but legislation is not easy. Definition is not easy because many knives, never mind clip knives, are legitimate knives, used for trade in this country. I am very hopeful that as a result of the consultations we have had, and which are continuing, with the various associations we shall be able to do something effective.

In view of the fact that these discussions have been continuing for some considerable time, can my right hon. and gallant Friend say when he is likely to arrive at a conclusion so that action may be taken?

As a result of the response by the associations and of the suggestions made, I hope very soon.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the misunderstanding that still exists on the subject, he will now give instructions that letters sent by prisoners to Members of Parliament are not to be censored.

No, Sir. As regards prison treatment, prisoners are permitted to write to Members of Parliament only if they have previously and unsuccessfully sought redress through one of the other channels appointed for consideration of complaints. Without censorship, it would be impossible to determine whether a letter contained matter in contravention of this rule or other objectionable matter.

But is the Home Secretary aware that this censorship serves not, as he told me, to protect M.P.s from abusive or threatening letters, but for the suppression of letters complaining of prison conditions ; that this is grossly unfair and, in fact, an aspersion on the honour and competence of every non. Member of this House? Therefore, will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not go into this question and alter the practice?

I did not suggest that the main purpose of this practice was to prevent prisoners writing to hon. Members of this House. There are many reasons for it, such as objectionable matter, how to commit crimes and other things. [Laughter.] No, it is not only the censorship of letters to M.P.s ; all letters have to be censored for these obvious reasons, and the existing system by which prisoners can complain is perfectly satisfactory. It is impossible to abolish the censorship of letters, because all kinds of complaints could be made which can be ventilated in the ordinary way.

But is the Home Secretary aware that this practice is capable of the gravest abuse, and could he not tell the House that he will consider this action in the light of discussions with the prison authorities?

No, Sir, I could not possibly give that undertaking. I have gone into this matter very carefully, and I am satisfied that the existing system meets all the requirements of the present day.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the case of which particulars have been sent to him and of similar cases, he will make provision for persons under twenty-one years of age to be sent to remand homes instead of prisons when ordered to be kept in custody prior to being sentenced.

Young persons under seventeen years of age are normally detained in remand homes, but there is no power to send young persons of seventeen and over to these homes which, in any event, are not suitably staffed or organised for their reception. I share the hon. Member's anxiety that this older group should also be kept out of prison, and I hope ultimately to provide remand centres for their detention, but the cost of building these centres will be heavy, and I cannot at the moment say when it will be possible to make a start.

Without wishing to prejudice a young person by identifying him with this specific case, may I ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman whether he is aware that at present young persons still at school on a first charge can be sent to prison on remand for a period and, in a particular case, at the end of the week discharged? Will the Home Secretary not try to do something to prevent this possibility of the contamination in prison of such young persons?

I do everything I can, and I fully appreciate, and agree with, what the hon. Gentleman has said. Under the existing limitations, which we will do our best to get rid of when circumstances permit, we do everything we can to put prisoners of the young age referred to—I know the case which the hon. Gentleman has in mind—amongst either starred prisoners or those of the same age.

Can the Home Secretary not offer us any more hope than the word "ultimately" of the provision of remand centres, which was envisaged in the 1948 Act? Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that, according to the latest figures he has made available, which I am sorry to see are not later than 1953, in that year not far short of 3,000 young people went to prison before conviction or sentence who were subsequently not sentenced to prison? That is a serious matter. Can the Home Secretary really not offer us something better than to say that "ultimately" he hopes to provide remand centres for this purpose?

I will do everything I possibly can. Everything is ultimate, and we are doing everything we can. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, however, that there are serious difficulties at the present time.

Has the attention of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman been called to a resolution passed unanimously last week at the annual meeting of the Magistrates' Association which shows their grave anxiety on this question, and cannot he hurry things on according to the terms of the Criminal Justice Act, 1948?

I will do everything I can.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware of the growing practice of remanding accused persons in custody even when there is no reason to believe that they are likely to abscond or tamper with the evidence or conceal stolen goods ; and whether he will introduce legislation to restrict the power of the courts to refuse bail.

I am aware that a considerable proportion of those who are received in prison on remand do not subsequently return as convicted persons. Some of these were remanded in custody for medical inquiry, and no doubt others were refused bail only because they had been unable to find the sureties which the magistrates considered desirable. If the accused is committed in custody for an offence other than murder or treason, he must, under the Magistrates Courts Rules, be informed of his right to apply to a judge of the High Court for bail. He can apply without cost to himself because if he has no money the Official Solicitor acts for him.

Is the Home Secretary aware that there have been several cases recently in which bail has been refused and in which the police certainly had no objection to it, and will he not, here and elsewhere, draw the attention of magistrates to the very serious step they are taking in remanding in custody, and depriving of his liberty, someone who has not yet been convicted of any offence?

We have issued two circulars in recent years on this matter to magistrates, but I will certainly look again into the question.

Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware of the recent case where a man was detained in custody on a murder charge for more than four months in circumstances in which, when the trial was brought on, the prosecution informed the court that they had no evidence fit to put before the court and withdrew the charge?

I am not quite clear about the case referred to by the hon. Gentleman, but I fancy the man was charged with murder. I said that there were two exceptions, murder and treason.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that in many cases prisoners are convicted and sentenced to long terms of imprisonment when the only evidence against them is that of identification by a single person ; and if he will introduce legislation to provide that in such cases corroboration should be required before a person may lawfully be convicted.

Such cases no doubt occur from time to time, but I have no reason to think that they are numerous. The weight to be attached to identification by a single person must vary with the circumstances of the case, and I do not think that it would be right to lay it down as a general principle that in no circumstances should a jury convict merely on the identification of an accused by a single witness.

Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the evidence of identification is invariably believed, though the evidence of reputable defence witnesses to an alibi is not believed, and that in the event of these men being convicted, it is impossible, without a confession or fresh evidence, to get them released, which means that it is conviction by identification and that a man is assumed guilty unless he can prove his innocence? Will he look further into the matter?

It is very difficult to pursue what the hon. Gentleman has in mind. I can give one example of how difficult it would be, in the case of an assault on a woman. In most cases there is only one possible person who could have seen the assailant, and that is the woman. It would be a terrible thing if the man could never be convicted unless there was corroborative evidence. I think that would be quite impossible.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that it is a common practice, when a crime has been committed, for the Metropolitan police to put up for identification criminals, presently at liberty, who have previous convictions for the same type of crime ; and if he will review this practice with the object of preventing the grave injustices which have arisen in recent cases.

There is no foundation for the suggestion that it is the practice of the Metropolitan police to put up individuals for identification by eye witnesses simply because they have previous convictions for the same type of crime. A person is put up for identification only if he answers the description of a person suspected of the crime under investigation, and there is some evidence or other good reason to connect him with the crime. I see no reason for reviewing these arrangements.

While I do not accept the reply given by the Home Secretary, which does not appear to be in accordance with the facts in many cases of which hon. Members are aware, may I ask whether he will review the methods used for identifying suspects with the object of drawing up rules governing methods of identification?

The hon. Gentleman says that he does not agree with my answer. That does not surprise me. I know the case he has in mind, and what I have stated in my answer is completely in accordance with it. I spent many hours on the case.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation giving him power to make regulations for the purpose of preventing accidents to window cleaners and of ensuring the continued efficiency of precautionary apparatus used by them.

Under the tentative proposals for legislation on health, welfare and safety in non-industrial employment which have been circulated to interested organisations, there would be power to make regulations to promote the safety of persons employed in a wide range of non-industrial places of work. I cannot say at present whether it will be practicable to make regulations covering window cleaners specifically.

On whom does the coming into force of the regulations depend? Is it the local authorities, and if not, who is it? In framing regulations, will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman consider the need to ensure that the precautions which ought to be taken are watched so that their efficiency is maintained?

I will certainly look into all that. However, the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that this is an extremely difficult matter because of the varying types of premises which have their windows cleaned. In the case of factories, it would come under the Factories Act. In the case of window cleaning in ordinary houses, one of the difficulties is that many of the window cleaners are self-employed. However. I will look into the matter.

Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the greatest dangers arise in the case of large buildings and where the window-cleaning is done under contract? It really arises from the insistence of window cleaning companies upon piecework rather than normal work, and it is this which leads to the regulations being ignored. Cannot the right hon. and gallant Gentleman do something about that?

Leaving aside the cases covered by the Factories Act. I cannot say how it would be done in the cases which the hon. Member has in mind, because it is an extremely difficult matter. It would be one of the cases covered by the new Act, in that it is non-industrial employment. It is something which it would be very difficult to do, but it would obviously come under that Act.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he has taken to facilitate the showing at home and abroad, and particularly in the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, of the Home Office Civil Defence film showing the devastation which would be caused if a hydrogen bomb were dropped on a modern city.

As I informed the hon. Member in reply to a previous Question, this is primarily a Civil Defence training film, and good use has been made of it for this purpose. Sixteen millimetre copies are on sale to local authorities who have been told that they are free to give it public showing. The film has been brought to the notice of Commonwealth and Colonial governments, the members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, and other foreign Governments with whom we are regularly in touch on Civil Defence matters. A number of those countries, including the United States of America, have acquired copies. One or two other Governments have also asked for a copy and those requests have been met. No special steps have been taken to bring the film to the notice of the Government of the Soviet Union.

Would it not be a good idea to do so? After all, is it not important that in all countries which have the power to deliver the hydrogen bomb the public should, as far as possible, be aware of its appalling consequences?

Up to date the film has been offered only to those people with whom we normally exchange Civil Defence information. I have had no request from the Soviet Government for it. It is primarily a training film, and the main purpose in producing it was to give it to our own people, and others interested, for Civil Defence purposes.

Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman consider making a large film for general distribution to cinemas so that the public, as well as Civil Defence workers, may be informed of what is to be expected?

The film is available to anybody who wants it. If any cinema wanted to show it, it could do so, and even the B.B.C. if it wished.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation with a view to implementing the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on the Adoption of Children, which were presented in September, 1954.

I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the answer which I gave on 28th June to a Question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Major Beamish).

Would the Home Secretary remind the House what that answer was? Did it indicate that he sees no immediate prospect? Is he aware that there are many people working in this sphere who feel that some of these recommendations are scarcely controversial but would be very useful indeed and that they are looking to him to bring them into effect?

I can only repeat my previous answer, that we shall do so when time can be found for it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) how many prisoners with medical records of epilepsy are in each of Her Majesty's Prisons ;

Current figures of epileptic prisoners in each prison are not available. The most recent available annual total figures show that 192 epileptics were received into custody in 1954 and that a further 209 prisoners were recorded as possibly having epilepsy. With two exceptions, in prisons where prisoners with severe epilepsy are detained the number of specially equipped cells for their use ranges from one to seven. In the two such prisons where there is no permanent provision special ad hoc arrangements are made as necessary. Prisoners suffering from epilepsy receive ati-convulsant drugs and other medicinal treatment ; where necessary they are lodged in cells equipped to reduce the likelihood of injury.

Is the Home Secretary aware that the arrangements which are made are totally inadequate, that some of the epileptic prisoners damage themselves very extensively when they have bad fits, and that the temporary arrangement in a cell consists merely of putting along the side of the wall a mattress which is never high enough to prevent a prisoner banging his head? Will the Home Secretary look at the whole question in the interests of prisoners who are many times in prison as a direct result of epilepsy?

While not necessarily accepting everything the hon. Lady has stated, in a matter of this sort I am always prepared to consider any suggestions made, and I am willing to do so in this instance.

Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman give careful consideration to permitting epileptic prisoners to be detained only in prisons which have all the facilities necessary for dealing with them, including what amounts to a padded cell?

In many cases, where a padded cell is provided, it is hardly ever used. I think that in one of the cases which the hon. Lady had in mind one of the prisoners was not in the special cell but was undergoing treatment and observation in hospital. That sort of thing sometimes happens, and temporary accommodation has to be provided. As I told the hon. Lady, I will certainly look into the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the nuisance caused to householders in the central area of London by the continuous and indiscriminate parking of cars in front of their premises ; and if he will refer the problem to the Commissioner of Police with the aim of giving householders reasonable access to their own premises.

Both the Commissioner of Police and I are well aware of the problem and sympathise with householders in the inconvenience to which they are subjected. Parking in front of someone else's house is not in itself an offence. In the absence of a statutory prohibition on parking in a particular roadway—which would apply to residents and non-residents alike—an offence is committed only if parking causes an obstruction of the highway. Within the limits of their resources the police take action when obstruction occurs.

While appreciating the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's sympathy, is he aware that it neither keeps m. Dr. nor lets me see out of my window? Has he seen a letter in The Times today where a man says that his car is immobilised in his garage, that he cannot get it out because of someone parking? Furthermore, the police said that they could do nothing about it and would prosecute him if he took action. This is beyond all bounds. Will the Home Secretary consider introducing legislation such as that just mentioned?

I need hardly say that I share the hon. Lady's view completely, because I am sure she is not the only one who has got wet. As the law is at the moment, the police can act only if obstruction is caused on the highway. The real difficulty of the police is that their main task—and, believe me, it is an extremely heavy one—is to keep traffic flowing, and they do their best to do so. If there is no such obstruction in side streets, the police cannot act. I have had this matter in mind for some considerable time, and I am in very close consultation with my right hon. Friend about it. I hope that the hon. Lady will accept from me that I do sympathise very strongly with her and will do everything possible to put the matter right.

Has not the time arrived when my right hon. and gallant Friend should take powers to enable the Metropolitan Police, within certain times and in certain streets, to impose an absolute ban on the parking of all unattended cars and vans, except those serving the occupiers of the premises?

My noble Friend will remember that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport set up a Committee earlier this year to look into the question of which streets should be forbidden for any parking. From what he said then, I think that this report should be available very shortly.

Will the Home Secretary at least take steps to see that those who park their cars on the streets—and I do not support the attitude that the householders have the right to the frontage of the roads—at least do not lock their cars, as that is often a great cause of obstruction when they have to be moved either by the police or private individuals?

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. It is most annoying. I have myself known a car to be locked and the owner to have gone away for three weeks. I do not know how many police we should require to go round each car to see if it was locked when it was left unattended. The first step is that we should hear from my right hon. Friend the results of the investigation by the London Traffic Advisory Committee to see in which roads parking could be forbidden. Then the police would be in a very different position.

While I agree that the owner of a house has no prescriptive right to the "foreshore" and can only try to persuade people not to park in front of his house, would not the Home Secretary agree that it is really intolerable when cars are parked in front of people's garages? Consider the case of a doctor who requires to go out at night to attend a case who finds a car he cannot move in front of his garage. Surely that is an obstruction or something.

It sounds very like it to me. I am not a lawyer, but parking in front of someone else's house is not an offence. Whether in the case my hon. Friend has referred to of someone trying to get to his garage could be put down as an obstruction, I do not know. As a layman, I should have thought that that was a good description of it, but whether that is the law, I do not know. So far as the front of a house is concerned, it is not an obstruction to leave a car there.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the police pay increases recommended by the arbitration tribunal last December will be effected.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he proposes to introduce the necessary legislation to implement the undertaking given in respect of police pay.

The increases in pay in question have been in operation since 16th December, 1955. If, however, the hon. and gallant Gentleman is referring to the arbitrators' recommendation of May this year as regards the retrospective operation of these increases to 8th September, 1955, that is a matter which will require legislation. After consulting the police authorities, the Government have decided to make the necessary provision in the legislation which, as I said in my statement on 12th July, they propose to introduce to enable retrospective effect to be given to future police pay awards or agreements.

Whilst thanking the right hon. and gallant Gentleman for that reply, may I ask whether he can hold out any prospect—since legislation is likely to go through the House very quickly—that this retrospective pay increase will be paid to the police before Christmas?

I agree with the hon. and gallant Member. I doubt whether the Bill will lead to much opposition in the House. As to the actual date, I have to ask him to await the Gracious Speech.

Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that there has been considerable misunderstanding among police forces about the reason for the delay and that it will meet the wishes of hon. Members on both sides of the House if he can bring the legislation forward at the earliest possible moment?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is satisfied that a recent instruction to the effect that officers of the Criminal Investigation Department must travel by public transport unless the use of a police car is absolutely essential will not damage the efficiency of the force ; and if he will make a statement.

Directions as to the observance of economy in the use of police transport were given last April to all members of the Metropolitan Police force in view of the need for economy in public expenditure. The Commissioner is satisfied that the restrictions imposed are in no way harmful to the efficiency of the Criminal Investigation Department or of other branches of the force.

Is not this insistence on members of the Criminal Investigation Department travelling by public transport really rather a silly piece of cheese-paring in view of the way that money is being squandered in other directions, and could not the Home Secretary show rather more confidence in the officers employed by the C.I.D.?

The Commissioner has control of the operation of the police, and I would remind the hon. Gentleman that he is satisfied. I am also satisfied that there are a great number of duties which the police are called upon to do that could be carried out by public transport. I would also remind the hon. Gentleman that there is no curtailment of any kind in the strictly operational use of cars for patrol or other purposes.

Has the Home Secretary made any attempt to assess the cost to the public of the loss in time involved?

Surely the hon. Gentleman realises that there must be many jobs which the police, whether C.I.D. or otherwise, can carry out by public transport without any loss of efficiency and without any operational effect. Surely it is right to get economy where possible?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why police officers attached to stations in the area of the Metropolitan Police force have been instructed that no toll or trunk telephone calls can be made without the permission of a superintendent.

This instruction was issued in 1952 in the interests of economy and resulted in a substantial saving in the cost of trunk and toll calls. The Commissioner is satisfied that it has not prejudiced efficiency.

Here again, could not the Home Secretary show rather more confidence in the judgment and the sense of responsibility of the police in these various offices. It must be apparent to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that any economy will be more than outweighed by the loss in efficiency.

Here again I must say to the hon. Gentleman that I assume the Commissioner, who is responsible for the operation of the police force, ought to know what he is talking about, and he is satisfied that there is no loss of efficiency. In a case of emergency, any call, trunk or otherwise, can be put through without asking anybody.

asked the Minister of Education what will be the total Government annual saving as a result of his directing the London County Council to triple its evening class fees.

Increases in further education fees proposed by the London County Council last spring and further increases resulting from Circular 307 will lead to an annual saving of about £27,000 in grant from my Department. Only in very few cases do fees have to be trebled to comply with the Circular.

Does the Minister think that this paltry sum warrants the intrusion and the risk of damaging a very great institution, the London evening schools? Will he watch carefully the effect of these new fees on the evening class population and, if it dwindles, will he return to the old charges?

The fact that the sum is very small cuts both ways. It is a very small addition, and no one has to pay more than l0d. a week. But if there should be a very marked change, I will certainly consider the position.

asked the Minister of Education whether, in view of the protests made by the Hampshire Education Committee against Circular 301 and by the Southampton Education Committee against Circulars 301 and 306, he will now modify his proposals on the cost per place of school buildings and on the building programmes for the next two years.

No, Sir. I am satisfied that good schools can still be built within the cost limits in sufficient numbers to meet essential needs.

Is the Minister aware that the protests to which this question refers are not party protests and that this morning the Hampshire Education Committee, which is largely Conservative. again unanimously protested against the economy cut which the Minister is making in school building, especially when it discovered that eight or nine schools had been cut out of the school building programme? Will he not take note of the views of responsible people of both political parties in local government of the serious effect that these economies are having on school building?

In very difficult cases I do allow exceptions, but I see no reason why the Hampshire Education Authority could not, by efficient planning, build within the cost limits.

asked the Minister of Education the average amount per school in the 1956–57 programme which will have to be secured by economies to achieve the £4 million which he expects to save by his decision, in Circular No. 301, not to increase the current cost limits of £154 and £264 per primary and secondary place, respectively.

The £4 million represents the amount by which the value of the 1955–56 building programme would have had to be increased to offset the rise in prices since April, 1955. I cannot usefully express this figure in terms of an average saving per school.

Is the Minister aware that this is not a Hampshire matter, just as it is not a Socialist matter, and the Association of Education Committees is repeatedly making representations to him that this fixing of the figure is compelling local authorities to make economies in school building, to cut out things which they regard as essential, or to use substitutes which in the long run will waste public money? Will the Minister not give serious consideration to the recommendation of the Association of Education Committees?

I have been looking for substantial protests, and they have not come. As a matter of fact, my information is that practically all the authorities are able, by efficient methods, to build within the cost limits.

asked the Minister of Education how many local authorities have made representations to him about the postponement of their school building programmes.

Forty-seven.

In view of the fact that, when he introduced Circular 306, the Minister said that the postponement of the school building programme was due to building difficulties, will he now let those authorities who feel that they can go ahead with building do so, or was it not a case of building difficulties but merely part of the economy campaign?

As the hon. Lady knows, the programme for the current year is somewhat larger than it was last year. It is clear that local authorities have as much work in hand this year as they can do. The postponement refers to the 1957–58 programme, and we still have time to see whether we can add to that if the general building situation gets better.

asked the Minister of Education how many schools are at present unable to provide full-time education for their pupils on account of understaffing ; how many of these schools are situated in Staffordshire ; and what steps he is taking to help the local education authorities to provide proper facilities at these schools.

I know of two such schools, both in Staffordshire. I have just held a conference with representatives of the local education authorities and teachers at which the problem of the distribution of teachers was thoroughly explored. But I cannot make a statement yet.

While I appreciate that fortunately this problem is on a very small scale, is it not terrible that it should occur at all, and does it not call for really urgent action? Is the Minister not aware that Staffordshire Education Authority has made most strenuous efforts to overcome the shortage of teachers? Nonetheless, the situation calls for some action on his part, and will he do something to restrain the better-off authorities from further recruitment until there is general higher distribution of teaching talent?

I am glad to say that the Staffordshire Authority has recruited 170 more full-time teachers as at 1st October this year compared with a year ago and the two schools are expected to be in full service on the 29th of this month. I quite agree that it would be a good thing if we could secure a better distribution, but that requires the good will of the better-off authorities, and I hope that we shall get it.

Is the Minister aware that when I accompanied the deputation from West Bromwich Education Committee to him recently we came away feeling that he simply was not aware of the gravity of the problem in the Midlands? Will he go further and see what the problem is, so that something may be done about it?

The right hon. Gentleman got a very wrong impression, I am afraid.

Is not the Minister aware that he gives the impression that he is taking this issue much more calmly than are the parents in Staffordshire? Lack of teachers and the bad conditions of the schools are not new problems. May we take it that this is the junior angle of "Setting the people free"?

This certainly is not a new problem, but it has been getting much better in the last few years.

Worse.

asked the Minister of Education if he will state the numbers of classes of over 40 and over 50 pupils, respectively, in the primary and secondary schools of England and Wales at the latest date for which figures are available ; and how they compare with the figures for each of the last five years.

As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Before I study the figures, will the Minister indicate whether the tendency is for an increase or a decrease in the number of overcrowded classes in the last year?

They show an improvement for primary classes and a slight worsening for senior classes, but even so the senior schools' position is better than it was in 1951.

asked the Minister of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the considerable withdrawals from first-aid classes in the Sheffield region following upon the increase in fees from 5s. to 20s. ; whether he is aware of the importance of encouraging, rather than discouraging, those citizens who wish to equip themselves to cope with accidents in the home, the factory and in the streets ; and if he will withdraw the application of Circular 307 to such classes and so permit the local authorities themselves to decide on what increases in fees may be necessary.

I have not yet received enrolment figures from Sheffield. First-aid classes are certainly of great value, but students aged 21 or over can reasonably be expected to pay 20s. for classes covering two terms. I do not feel able to exempt these classes from the operaation of Circular 307.

Even if the Minister refuses to withdraw the whole of Circular 307, will he not study this again and realise that first-aid classes are largely inspired and largely taken over by people inspired by a desire for public service, and that it would be a good investment for the country to provide such instruction free? Will he not again consider whether this type of class and others of a similar kind might not have special exemption from the provisions of the Circular?

It would not be a good thing to make exceptions, at least until I have seen the figures of enrolments.

asked the Minister of Education what progress has been made in the extension of facilities for technical education since the publication of the White Paper.

As the answer is long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Are the figures satisfactory?

Yes, I think that my hon. Friend will be satisfied.

asked the Minister of Education what complaints he has received in respect to the food served in the school meals service ; and what steps are taken by his Department to ensure a reasonable state of efficiency and satisfaction in this service in all districts.

My right hon. Friend has not received any complaints of this sort. He prescribes the standards which the service is expected to follow and it is inspected by H.M. Inspectors of Schools, in addition to the supervision exercised by the local education authorities, who are directly responsible for its administration.

asked the Minister of Education whether, at the forthcoming conference of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation in New Delhi, he will urge that the judgments of the International Labour Organisation Tribunal in 1955, ordering the reinstatement of seven dismissed employees of the organisation, should be implemented by the Director-General.

The award of the International Labour Organisation Tribunal provided both in the case of the three members with permanent contracts and in the case of the four with fixed term contracts for the payment of monetary compensation as an alternative to reinstatement. Compensation has in fact been paid to the three members who had permanent contracts. The Executive Board of U.N.E.S.C.O. decided that an advisory opinion should be sought from the International Court of Justice on the competence of the International Labour Organisation Tribunal in relation to the other four employees. I have seen yesterday's press reports which indicate that the Hague Court have confirmed the Tribunal's competence in this matter. It will now be for the organisation to give effect to the opinion of the Court.

Is it not the fact that the original recommendations of the I.L.O. Tribunal was quite positive for reinstatement and that the alternative of compensation was mentioned only because the Tribunal noted, quite correctly, that it had no executive authority to enforce its recommendation? Would it not be reasonable, therefore, for the delegation going to the general conference to insist that the delegation should carry out this recommendation, which was for reinstatement, and put weight behind this recommendation which the Tribunal itself was not able to do?

The British representative voted against going to The Hague Tribunal, and it is now up to the Director-General to decide what course of action to take. I cannot say whether it will come up at the conference.

Is it really the case that a national delegation, representing a Government which supports this organisation, to U.N.E.S.C.O. has no authority in this matter? Surely the Minister can tell us that the British delegation will take some initiative in view of the importance of this to all international institutions.

No, we must see what is proposed by the Director-General.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will make a statement regarding the conditions under which Mr. Seretse Khama has been permitted to return to Bechuanaland.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he will make a statement about the position of Seretse Khama.

As my noble Friend said in the statement he made in another place on 23rd October, Seretse Khama has renounced for himself and his children all claim to the Chieftainship of the Bamangwato Tribe. Seretse Khama and his uncle, Tshekedi Khama, have undertaken to co-operate fully with Basebolai Kgamane both in his capacity as African Authority of the Bamangwato and as Chairman of the Tribal Advisory Council which is to be formed. In this new situation Her Majesty's Government have agreed that Seretse Khama should be permitted to return to the Bechuanaland Protectorate as a private person and to take his family with him, and that both he and Tshekedi Khama should be free to play their part in the affairs of the Bamangwato Tribe.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman express to the Minister the appreciation of many of us that this decision has been reached? Is he aware that many of us have the greatest appreciation of the action of Tshekedi Khama and Seretse Khama in making these proposals to the Minister? Arising out of his reply, can the Under-Secretary give us any particulars of the Advisory Council? How is it formed? Is it the intention to make it a democratic council in future?

I am grateful for what the hon. Member has said, and perhaps for once he has agreed with what I have said from this Box. I shall be answering Questions about the Advisory Council later, but not today.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what representations the United Kingdom High Commissioner received regarding the appointment of Mr. Geoffrey Chaplin as Resident Commissioner of Basutoland.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will reconsider recent appointments of two South Africans as Resident Commissioners in Basutoland and Swaziland, respectively, with a view to allaying suspicions that such appointments have some bearing upon the possibility of the incorporation of the High Commission Territories within the Union of South Africa.

The Paramount Chief Regent and also some organisations and individuals in Basutoland have made representations against the appointment as Resident Commissioner, of Mr. Chaplin, a member of Her Majesty's Oversea Civil Service who was born in South Africa. The Paramount Chief has explained that her representations are due to his place of birth and are not directed against him personally. Representations in support of the appointment have also been received.

Do not these protests generally indicate the extreme sensibility of the populations of Basutoland and Swaziland about any suggestion of incorporation in the Union of South Africa? Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman be prepared to receive a deputation of chiefs from Basutoland who want to discuss this matter with him?

What the hon. Member said in his opening remarks may well be, but Her Majesty's Government have always made the position and their policy about the Territories absolutely clear. I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 10th July. My noble Friend would, of course, consider any proposal on the lines which the hon. Member has just suggested.

Is it true that a delegation is coming from the Paramount Chief of Basutoland, and if so, is my hon. and gallant Friend receiving them?

The Paramount Chief Regent has said that she will be coming to London and my noble Friend has told her that if she does so he of course will receive her.

In making these appointments to the Protectorate, does the hon. and gallant Gentleman's noble Friend consider the possibility of making them from the overseas services from other parts of Africa and the Colonies, thus avoiding the suspicion which arises over issues of this kind?

Perhaps I may refer the right hon. Gentleman to the reply given by his right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker) when he was Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, when he said, in very similar circumstances :

"I have every confidence in the staff of the High Commission Territories, from whatever country they may have been recruited…I do not contemplate any change in the present method of recruitment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 17th November, 1949; Vol. 469, c. 230.]

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations when it is proposed to establish legislative councils in Basutoland, Swaziland, and Bechuanaland.

As Her Majesty's Government have frequently stated, it is their policy to encourage the formation of representative institutions in the High Commission Territories. These institutions are at present being developed at the local government level. In each of the three Territories there is already an African Council with advisory functions. In Swaziland and Bechuanaland there are also European Advisory Councils and in Bechuanaland there is a Joint European and African Advisory Council. These Councils are consulted on all matters of importance affecting them. At the present stage of political development of the High Commission Territories, it would be premature to consider the establishment of legislative councils.

Without in any way running down the existing council, may I ask whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman will not recognise that we really have to take a fresh initiative in the Protectorates? Can he not hold out some hope of legislative councils, or at any rate that it is in contemplation by the Government?

As I think the hon. Member probably knows, the Basuto have asked for a legislative council and my noble Friend has suggested that they should take such powers in matters affecting the Basuto only. That matter is now being considered by them. I think that our policy in this matter is the same as that of our predecessors ; good progress is being made and it would be quite wrong to try to "pressure cook" this kind of organisation.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what decisions have been reached regarding the recommendations in the Gaitskell Report for Economic Development in Bechuanaland ; and what conditions to safeguard wages and promotion to skilled work are to be attached to concessions to mineral development.

The Gaitskell Mission's recommendations concerning the survey of existing farms and the development of roads and water supplies have been adopted and work on them is proceeding. They also recommended the establishment of a pilot farm in the Western Kalahari and certain measures for the further development of the area. As, however, there is no shortage of land in the populated areas of Bechuanaland, it is unlikely that African settlers would be attracted to the Western Kalahari. It has, therefore, been decided to defer action on these recommendations until the existing centres of African population have been fully developed.

Without in any way wishing to "pressure cook" the High Commissioner, may I ask the Minister whether he will not take the example already shown in Uganda and see that it is really implemented, since African people are intensely suspicious of mineral concessions granted without these guarantees, which may cause great trouble in the future?

As I think I have told the hon. Member on previous occasions, with regard to mineral concessions the High Commissioner is keeping in close touch with the chiefs.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will introduce a system of old-age pensions for Africans in the High Commission Territories.

Under tribal law and custom in all three Territories, responsibility for the care of the poor of all ages in African society rests with the relatives. Where, for any reason, the relatives cannot provide for needy cases, the Government and the Tribal Administrations grant relief in the form of money, food and clothing.

Is not the Minister aware that, in the long run, the future of these Protectorates depends on them providing for Africans facilities comparable with those already available in the Union of South Africa? Would he not in future take such a complacent attitude as he has shown in his answer to this particular Question?

I can assure the hon. Member that I do not take any complacent attitude, but I think that the House will agree that economic progress comes first.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on the Anglo-Australian trade talks.

The talks were adjourned in August to allow further study to be completed in both countries. They were resumed on 4th October and are continuing.